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The alcohol industry is worth more than $250 billion in the United States, but the bulk of that money is being raked in by the biggest corporations and distributors with very little room for independents to break in. But Haus has found a way to be a disruptor. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Haus founder Helena Price Hambrecht hopped into her recording studio (AKA her car outside the Haus warehouse) to explain how her small aperitif company has taken advantage of deep industry knowledge, organic growth, and the complete ownership of the supply chain to build an Ecommerce-based alcohol experience that the younger generation is embracing.  3 Takeaways: Adding educational elements to every touchpoint is key to helping customers get the most out of products  Now is the time to invest heavily in the product because it is only with a good product that you can have truly excellent organic growth There are risks involved with being a fully vertical company, but the reward is the ability to be nimble, have a laser-focus on product development, and allow the ability to adjust to supply chain curveballs with ease For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Stephanie: Welcome everyone to another episode of Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles. And today we're joined by Helena Price Hambrecht founder at Haus. Helena, should we call this a happy hour episode even though it's only 11:00 AM. Helena: Every hour it can be a happy hour. Stephanie: I think so too. So tell us a little bit about Haus. I was looking into it and it looks like a really fun brand and it already was getting me excited with some of the new products you were launching. I think one of them was called Lemon Lavender that, like I said, I was ready to order at 11:00 AM. So I'd love for you to detail a bit about your company, and your background, and how you started it. Helena: Yeah, so Haus is an alcohol company. We launched with me and my husband. We co-founded it together. His name's Woody. We live on a farm in Sonoma County and we joke that it's very much the product of a techie marrying a wine maker. And our goal is to create the next portfolio of alcohol products that reflect how our generation drinks and what they care about in food and beverage. Stephanie: Very cool. And how is Haus different from other spirits brands or liquor brands or wine? Helena: Oh God, where do I begin? I think it's interesting because most people don't realize that alcohol can be better than it is. Right? I think alcohol has gotten a pass for a long time because it's a vice. And I think people can just assume, "Well, it's bad for me. So doesn't ultimately matter what's in it because it's just bad." And corporate alcohol has kind of run with that for a long time. So a lot of the products that you're drinking are worse than you think. You're feeling bad, you're feeling hung over when you drink and you think it's just because it's alcohol, but alcohol is only a tiny piece of that puzzle. Helena: In reality, corporate alcohol is made with things that you just wouldn't believe, take wine for instance. You can intervene in your wine production with milk, and eggs, and clay, and fish bladders, and artificial flavors, and tubs of processed sugar. You can engineer it to taste good, but it's going to make you feel horrible. It can be made with grapes that are full of pesticides. Your favorite whiskey might be full of petroleum-based, caramel coloring. It's kind of a racket. And we're a generation that's cared about where our food comes from, where our beauty products come from, is it organic? Is it locally processed? Is it responsibly made? For some reason, alcohol has gotten a pass and we wanted to raise the bar. So we approach things very, very differently. Stephanie: Very cool. So it seems it'd be very difficult getting into the alcohol industry. I was reading a little bit about the three tier system where distributors and bartenders are the gatekeepers and they tell you what to drink. How did you have the courage to get into that industry? And then how were you actually able to become the only direct consumer spirits brand? Helena: Yeah, so I mean, it's really Woody, right? I used to work in alcohol industry, but as a bartender. I wasn't really deep in the production side of it until I met Woody. And Woody is a great farmer. He's been running the family's grape farm for the last decade and he also makes wine, and was making aperitifs when I met him before Haus. And he was doing everything right as a independent wine and spirits guy. His products were in the best bars and restaurants in America. They were in the best cocktails in America. Helena: But because of the three tier system, which is pretty much controlled by corporations, you don't have a lot of leverage as an independent brand. So you don't really have control over how your product is used and Woody would just find that he was a little sprinkle in a fancy 10 ingredient cocktail. So while he could name drop his full accounts, he wasn't moving any product, the drinker had no idea who he was. I was observing this and thinking, "Man, this is not a great way to build an independent brand." And the more and more I got to know the industry, the more I got to know the three tier system, which it's a hundred year old prohibition era laws. Helena: For those who don't know the tiers, which I would assume you don't, it's just distributors, producers, and retailers. So if you're a producer, you have to go through a distributor to get your product into bars and restaurants. And then bars, and restaurants, and retailers then sell to the drinker. Unfortunately, the way the laws have been designed, it's actually allowed corporations to just be in cahoots with distributors. So corporations ultimately decide what you're drinking and it's why you're still drinking Jack Daniels, and Gregger's, and Absolut and you've not really heard of any other brands that are playing in the liquor space. Helena: So for us, we didn't know that there was a way to go around the system. And I started doing research because I was curious about just how our generation was drinking, what were we looking for out of alcohol? Because I was certainly looking for a better alcohol experience. And I saw a huge opportunity. Like I said earlier, millennials are looking for better made products. They care about their health, and their image, and authenticity, and transparency, and convenience. And when you looked at what alcohol was doing, it was almost nothing. So I was really complaining to Woody about this, saying, "Gosh, what a shame that you can't build independent brand, like a Glossier or an Everlane of alcohol because of the three tier system and you have to go through the distributors." And that's when I said, "Actually, there's a loophole that I never thought about until this moment." Stephanie: Dun, dun, dnn. Helena: Yeah. If you're an aperitif, you're typically in the liquor category. You're federally regulated like a liquor. You can't sell direct to consumer. You can't go online, but if you're under 24% alcohol and you're made mostly of grapes, which is a loophole you would only know about if you're a great farmer who makes great base aperitifs, you can go around the loss, you can go direct to consumer, you can sell online. And it just had never occurred to anyone to use that loophole to build a direct to consumer alcohol company. Stephanie: So no one else in the industry found that out until you guys did and you're the first ones to actually be able to sell to consumers directly because you leveraged that loophole? Helena: Yeah. And you know what? We thought that we'd stumbled upon a treasure and that, "Oh my gosh, when other people find out about this loophole, we're going to have competition, which would be fine." But when we were pitching it to folks in the alcohol industry, they thought it was a stupid idea. They could not understand why we would want to go direct and why we would sell online. People are so used to doing things the way that they've been done forever and they just couldn't process that we thought that we could just go on the internet and create a brand and sell something to the drinker because it had never been done before. Over and over and over again people were just like, "Why would you do that? That's stupid." Stephanie: Yeah. That's awesome. And this loophole also lets you guys have a brick and mortar store, right? Whereas you would never see a Jack Daniels store on the streets of New York. But you all could open one if you wanted it to, correct? Helena: Exactly. Yeah. We could open two different brick and mortars in California today. It's state by state. Every state has different laws and it's still kind of a nightmare to navigate. But yeah, we can do so many things that other brands and liquor space can't do. We can be sold without a liquor license. We can sell online, we can do a wine club style subscription service. There's just this whole world that opens up to us. And we were the only people that decided to try it. Stephanie: That's amazing. So what was the first steps looking like when you started Haus and you were thinking about building the website and the experience, like the buyer experience? How do you think through designing that process for consumers who have never done that before? Helena: Yeah, and that was the challenge, right? It's like as a brand, one thing we had going for us was we weren't just two people in class who had an idea and had to create a backstory. The backstory was there, right? We were people trying to solve our own problem and a problem that everyone we knew was having and that was great. And we live on the farm and we make it ourselves, and all of that's hopeful as a brand. But the real challenge that we had was how do we take this type of liquor aperitifs, which has been in Europe for over a century ... it's a style of drinking that's very common in other parts of the world, but is relatively unknown in America. How do we take this type of liquor and make it mainstream? Without having to pitch people in person just through the internet, how do we very quickly educate people on what this is, the problem it's solving, convince them to buy it, get them to get their friends together and drink it together? So that was a challenge. Helena: But for us, our goal was to just approach it as education, right? And bake education into as many touch points as possible, not just through copy on the website, but through photography, through editorial, through different touch points post-purchase, in the packaging. It was really about how can we make the most of every single touch point that this customer has with our product so that by the time that they receive it, they deeply understand it and where it lives in their life. Stephanie: Yeah. I could definitely see the difference from your photography versus a lot of other e-commerce companies. I could see that you were teaching the buyer how to enjoy Haus. I think one thing I saw was as you went from page to page, you had a couple images flash showing how it's being enjoyed at the table, sitting on the table with a bunch of friends. It was very different than the typical product images with the white background and no one really having a good time with it. How did you know to utilize that imagery to encourage that buyer behavior to then hopefully spread the word about Haus? Helena: Yeah, that was a very conscious decision. So my background's in brand. Before Haus, I had a production company that did everything from visual brand strategy to producing commercial campaigns including photography. So when we thought about photography for Haus, first things first, I didn't want to do what every other direct to consumer company at the time was doing, which was product on a plain colored backdrop, very simple, very polished, very digital looking. It didn't feel right for us because there was no context, right? Haus isn't supposed to live on a seamless backdrop in a photo studio, Haus is supposed to live at your dinner table. And it just felt like a missed opportunity to show the customer where Haus belongs. Helena: And that type of photography of the product on a plain backdrop, that exists for a reason, right? It performs well in paid. It's very straightforward. People can physically see what they're buying. And, in an era prior to now where paid drove most direct to consumer growth, it makes sense that people use what performs well. But for us wanting to grow organically as much as possible, we didn't care so much about that sort of metric and for us the priority was way more about how can we use this opportunity to just show people exactly what they should be doing with the product. And that's really how we approached it. Stephanie: That's awesome. And are there certain metrics or data and analytics that you look at to see what's performing well and what's not or how do you think about success when it comes to utilizing a different kind of buyer experience? Helena: Yeah, I mean, in the beginning up until December we were 100% growth. And that's hard to measure, right? There's no real way to examine where those customers are coming from. There's not a whole lot you can do with that data, which makes it very daunting for most companies to pursue. Right? Stephanie: And you said a 100% organic growth, right? You cut out there for a second. Helena: Yes. Stephanie: Okay. Got it. Helena: And now we're experimenting with paid and now about 20% of our customers come from paid. But for us, we're still a primarily organic company. So I think for us it was more of a philosophy and some hypothesis around our product and how it could spread, right? Our product is something that is inherently shared, right? If you're having a drink, you're very likely having it with another person, you may be having it with a group of people and that's certainly the customer that we were going before. So for us, we wanted to make sure that the product and the customer experience was so stellar, which sounds common sense, but it's not necessarily, especially when you have limited resources that you have to put into certain buckets. We put everything into product and everything in the customer experience so that when people received that product, they gathered their friends together, they shared it with their friends, they all had an amazing experience together, and then all of those friends went to buy a Haus. So that was this organic flywheel that started taking off. And our growth was through word of mouth. Helena: We also prioritized press quite a bit. My first career was in PR, running comms for startups. So I'm a big fan of working with press to tell your story because, you can tell people what to do all day, but people are going to really listen when someone else tells them to go buy your product and that it's great. And press is also hard to quantify, right? A lot of press doesn't actually tie to purchases. It's more of a long game of having this validation and the customer being able to come to your website and see that the New York Times, or GQ, or Vogue said that you were good. So it's one of those things where a lot of what we pursued in the beginning birthwise was really hard to quantify and it was also kind of long game. So I think it rests outside of the comfort zone of a lot of founders and a lot of growth managers because of that. But it worked so well for us and it continues to work well for us. Stephanie: Yeah, it definitely sounds like it. How do you think about leveraging press? Because when I think about that, it seems like there's a lot of agencies and companies who are ready to do a PR release and tell you that they're going to get you press. But then afterwards you're like, "Oh, what did it really get me?" And a lot of people maybe can't get on the Vogues and the bigger name brand sites like that. How did you pick out strategic places to be seen and found? And how did you even get those relationships to get that press? Helena: Yeah, I mean, it takes time, right? There's plenty of people that I wish were writing about us and they still haven't. But for us, my philosophy since my early '20s when I was doing comms is like you can't expect anything from anybody immediately, right? Because even if the person writes about your beat, even if it's obvious that they would find your product interesting. You just don't know what they're going to be writing about for the next year. And maybe they're not going to be writing about anything where you're particularly relevant and maybe they don't break news, maybe they're writing trend pieces. A lot of the media relationship building that I've done over the last decade and that we continue to do with Haus is about just getting on people's radar and not wanting anything upfront, not being so transactional about it, and just saying hello, sending them some information about Haus or your company, sending them samples of it, any new products as you release them. Helena: There's a lot of parallels I think between media relations, and fundraising for those who have fundraised where building relationships with investors is similar, where a lot of times it's just reaching out over and over, being like, "Hey, hope you're well, remember that thing that we said we were going to do, we did it. Check it out. It's pretty cool." And not expecting anyone to immediately do something about it, whether it's write you a check or write a piece about you. If you have news to share, you can always pitch it and formally ask if they're interested in writing about it. Helena: But I think approaching it more casually and again, really thinking about the long game, helps forge a more authentic relationship as well, where they are people and if they're interested in your space, you probably actually have a lot in common, you could probably be friends. And if you just treat them as a person who's interested in a space that's similar to you, then it's just going to be a much healthier relationship versus only reaching out last minute when you want them to write about you right now. It's just not going to happen. Stephanie: Yeah, that's such great advice. Be persistent, but don't be annoying. So how do you think about selling something on a website that a lot of people want to experience? I know you just mentioned samples. Do you see samples working well to get people to come back and buy? Because I've heard mixed experiences with that from a few of the guests we've had on the show. Some people completely took samples away because it wasn't working. Other people said it worked well. What's your experience with having the buyer be able to try before they go too deep into the buying experience? Helena: Yeah, well, we don't actually do samples for our customers. We have a starter kit that are two smaller bottles of two of our flavors that people can buy. And that's definitely a popular first purchase. I think for us there was a risk to selling smaller form factors direct to consumer, right? Like the margin is lower, it's just not a productive purchase from a business standpoint. But we released those smaller sizes because we saw a behavior where when people would buy even one larger bottle of Haus, they would come back and they'd buy more. Their next purchase would be two bottles or six bottles. So for us, there was that confidence because we had the data that showed that people that bought that first smaller size, they would come back and they would buy something bigger. So that's worked for us. I think if we were losing money on it, we wouldn't do it. But we still make a decent margin on our small sizes. So for us, really the challenge was how can we give people the best idea of what they're going to experience? Helena: And part of that was us being really thorough on the site, just explaining the kind of flavor components, what they can expect, showing the ingredient list, showing the nutrition facts. And then reviews have also been really useful for us where we work with Yoko. And for that it's been great for someone who's on the fence to go and read from 50 people who tried the product and liked it and talk a little bit about their experience. But ultimately, it's still a challenge for us. We're exclusively an online company. This is kind of a great problem to have. It's a problem that most companies want. But when we last looked at our newsletter, 70% of our newsletter subscribers who open our emails, and read our emails, and love the brand, they haven't bought yet a Haus yet. So it's an interesting phenomenon where people like the brand, and they're interested in it, and they're thinking about trying it one day, but they just haven't pulled the trigger. Though what we've seen with COVID, a lot of those people are starting to pull the trigger. Stephanie: Got it. And what are you including in your newsletter because that's unheard of to have a newsletter for a brand where people love the newsletter, but maybe haven't tried it yet. What kind of content are you putting out there that's pulling people in so much and how are you thinking about converting them in the future? Helena: Yeah, I mean, it's nothing crazy, right? It's not like we've built some robust editorial platform. But we share recipes, we share behind the scenes, we share occasionally elaborations that we do with other brands or people in the food and beverage space. It's nothing that's too robust. We haven't put a ton of resources into the editorial side of our business yet, but we are very careful to not be too promotional or too self serving and really make it something that people are going to enjoy looking at and enjoy reading even if they aren't actually drinking Haus right now. Stephanie: Got it. That's awesome. Are there other brands in the e-commerce space that you look to, to either learn from? I know I read that you've described Haus like the Warby Parker of booze, so are there people that you are inspired by, that you test out maybe different website models or AB tests or what are your content that you're releasing that helps iterate that? Helena: Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's so many, right? Like the Warby Parker analogy came from Luxottica outright who Warby ultimately disrupted and Luxottica feels very similar structurally to what you see in the alcohol industry. I mean, Away is one of the kind of OG brand branded did such an incredible job of building a movement and building a community around something that wasn't considered very sexy prior to Away. And they did such a great job with curating content and working with their community on photography and they did such an incredible job. Glossier does an incredible job. I love that they started editorial first and they really focused on building a community that was very, very different than what you saw in the beauty community. And they utilize channels in a very different way than other beauty brands did. And that really came to help them. I think the bottom line is really focusing on creating content that serves the customer and makes them really excited to participate with your brand. And for every brand, that's different. But it's finding that thing that gets your customers really, really energized and engaged. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. Are you focused on a certain demographic or are you trying to pull maybe a demographic who's always been used to going after the name brands, are you trying to also pull them away and try something new? Helena: Yeah, I mean, our initial demographic was a hunch based on us, on our own personal use case and how we came up with Haus. We made it for people who drink quite a bit, and they're out and about, and they're building their careers, and they're networking, and they're at events, and they're catching up with friends, and they're going on dates, and they're around alcohol a lot. Right? Like we're not going for the kiddo person. We're not going for the super, super health nut, we're not going for sugar-free people, we're not going for people who are trying to get sober. We're going for people who love to drink, but they have certain values that they apply to other industries like food, and beauty, and their clothes and they just didn't know that they could have those same standards for alcohol. Right? Helena: And those people, our hunch was that they lived in urban areas, large and midsize cities, they were career focused, they were probably millennial though the age range extends beyond that. Gen Z also exhibits the same kind of behavioral demographics and they're starting to turn 21, definitely early adopter types have some sort of aesthetic sensibility. And we had a hunch that there would be overlaps between us and other direct to consumer brands. And so far that seems to be correct. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. So something else that's really interesting about your company is that you guys are a fully vertical company, so you own everything from the production to the distribution. Can you speak a little bit towards how that gives you an advantage when it comes to launching new products and how you even came about thinking like, "I'm going to do everything." Instead of going with a more traditional model of sourcing things. And I mean, you said stuff came from your farm, like the ingredients and whatnot. That's insane from thinking about how other alcohol companies do things. So I'd love to hear a little bit about that. Helena: Yeah. It's not normal for alcohol and it's not normal for direct to consumer, right? Take Warby Parker for instance, who's like the OG in the direct to consumer space. I mean, take most direct to consumer companies. The advantage to being direct to consumer in the beginning was not owning your supply chain and being able to go and work with vendors that you own the brand experience and the purchasing experience and you're able to take a brand and make it a thing. And, and so for us, we wanted to take a very different approach for the most part because we knew how to do it, right? Like we're good at it. We make aperitifs already, we have the warehouse, we have the farm, we have the infrastructure. So we didn't want to outsource that to anybody else. Helena: But we also had a hunch that being fully vertical would give us a huge advantage from a product development standpoint. We could super nimble, we could iterate every day if we wanted to based on customer feedback. We could launch new products quickly, we can kill them quickly. We had a lot of abilities that other companies wouldn't have. And then we would also be prepared for any sort of supply chain curveball that comes our way. Right? The only thing that we don't personally own is making physical bottles. So we always have to make sure that we're prepared and have inventory for an inflection point. But everything else we do ourselves, right? We make it, we bottle it, we ship it. Helena: And so for us, we of course never expected a pandemic sized curve ball, but it was the ultimate test, right? And we're one of the few companies that haven't been impacted at all by the pandemic and we were even able to release a ton of new products during the pandemic. So it's one of these moments where we made some philosophical bets early and we didn't know how exactly it would benefit us, but we had a feeling that it would longterm and it's benefited us in a massive way now. Stephanie: Yeah, that's great. It seems like it's very opposite from what a lot of brands and companies and e-commerce companies are doing right now where everything's about outsource that and only take care of the front end part of it. So it's really nice hearing about someone jumping in and doing the whole process. Are there any learnings, or best practices, or failures you've experienced when setting that up? Helena: Yeah, for sure. I mean we've definitely made some mistakes on the production side, but the beauty of it is if you accidentally leave a hose open and the product pours out all over the floor, you just start over and you make it again. I think for us, the biggest learning curve was the one part of our supply chain that we didn't own, which was bottles. And again, this industry has its own politics. It's pay-to-play, it helps to be owned by a corporation. And so it took us some effort to be taken seriously by a bottle vendor because we were a new brand. We didn't have the backing of Diageo or Pernod. What were they to expect us to do? Right? Even if we were like, "We're going to be big." How are they supposed to believe us? Helena: So we were sold out for most of the first two months of our existence because we just couldn't get bottles. They just wouldn't take us that seriously. And it got to a point where we had to say, "How big of a check do we have to write for you to believe us?" So the downside of that is you have to buy more bottles upfront than you may have wanted to. But again, in a time like this, during a pandemic, we're really happy to have made that. Stephanie: That's great. So when it comes to the pandemic, I saw that you were able to quickly shift where I think your profits were going. Do you want to speak a bit about the initiative that you have going on and how you were able to quickly pivot because you own the entire process and supply chain? Helena: Yeah, the pandemic has been a roller coaster for everybody, us included. In February, we saw that it was calming and potentially already here, which it was. So we had to do worst case scenario planning, right? Like, "Okay, what if the economy bottoms out? What if nobody's buying anything? What if like every direct to consumer company burns to the ground?" So we did a deep dive in our P&L and we cut a lot of costs that kind of felt more like nice to have versus must haves. We luckily didn't have to fire anybody, but we wanted to just make our business very core, very nimble and that ended up being a good decision regardless. Helena: But pretty soon after, our business started growing and that's due in a large part to e-commerce growing, it's due in a large part to alcohol growing. We happened to be the one alcohol company that directly delivers to your door and the press started writing about us because of that. So there were a lot of domino effects from being in this space. And we were also starting to see a lot of efficiencies around paid, so we were putting more money into that. There are a lot of things factoring in, but long story short, we were growing, like our business right now it's up more than 500% than it was in January. Stephanie: Congratulations. It's amazing. Helena: It's crazy. And so for us, obviously that was a huge relief knowing that we didn't have to let anybody go. We could continue building the business. But there was definitely a question of this pandemic is way bigger than us, right? It's something that we're all going through as a society and it feels a little strange to be wholly focused on yourself, especially if you're doing well. And so for us it was really thinking about the rest of our industry, right? We're in food and beverage and not everybody is faring as well. Restaurants in particular, they are in huge trouble. They're a very low margin business. They're a labor of love. They are a beautiful industry, but largely they're traditional, right? And they don't have alternative revenue streams. They're serving only local walk-in patrons, so they're in huge trouble. Helena: And we took a step back to really think about like, "Okay, we could just launch a campaign or something like that." But that didn't feel right. There was too many of those already out in the world and it just felt overwhelming. So we thought like, "We have infrastructure, we have a warehouse, we have a production facility, we have resources, physical resources. How could we use the tools that we have to help others in our industry?" And pretty quickly we realized if we ... obviously we had to test it with them and see if they were into it, but if we made a product for restaurants, like if we made booze with these restaurants, use the chef's vision, the chef could direct it because that's very important to a restaurant. They don't want to promote someone else's group product. Helena: We could make and ship booze for them that's their recipe and we could donate the profits to the restaurant, which is a healthy margin. We could make a significant impact on their business. So we tried it and we got signed on from a bunch of the best chefs in the country, partially because of our connections and connections of our investors and our friends. And now we're making 13 new products this month. And we're sending a lot of money to restaurants. I think at this point, we've probably sent like $80,000 to restaurants and we're still in the preorder phase. So it feels good. Stephanie: That's great. Is this the first time that you've had someone help influence the ingredients to create a new product? Like you're mentioning how the chefs are creating their own. Is this the first time you're trying out this model or have you always had help from the industry when it comes to new products? Helena: No, Woody's done everything himself. So what is this magical man who is such an artist and he has a vision and he's really, really good at making wine and aperitifs. So all the products were his vision and then this is still very much a collaboration, right? It's like these chefs don't have experience making alcohol, so they talk to Woody, they share their vision, right? Like what they would love for it to taste like and ingredients that they would like to feature. It's a very similar collaboration between a chef and their kitchen, right? They give the vision, the kitchen executes it, and it's similar here where Woody can take that vision and then he can play around with the recipe and different combinations of ingredients to get somewhere that he thinks is up to par. Then he sends those samples to the chefs, the chefs give some feedback, whether that's like, "Oh, it could use some more acid." Or, "Maybe a little sweeter." Or, "I'd like to taste more of this particular fruit." And then and then it's done. Stephanie: That's great. Do you see that kind of partnership continuing even after the pandemics done? Because it seems like a really nice way to have like UGC content or alcohol created for you and then creating those partnerships could only help scale all the different products that you have with the help of other people who have a specific idea in mind. And then you have a buyer from the start. Helena: Oh yeah. It's a win-win for everybody, right? It's like these restaurants have a new form of revenue, which is great. It allows them to monetize their audience, which is for the most part national or international. They're just collect revenue from a much, much bigger group than they could four. And we've made these products, they're so good. These are incredible aperitifs. It feels like a new frontier for alcohol in America. It's really exciting. And so for us it's great that we can collaborate with these chefs to make these really unique recipes. So I wouldn't be surprised if we added most of them to our permanent store after the project is over because they're just awesome and this makes sense. It's a win-win. Stephanie: That's really fun. So to zoom out a little bit, go a little higher level, what kind of trends do you see coming to the e-commerce industry or what are you most excited about right now? Helena: Yeah, I mean, I have a feeling that there's going to be a new level of scrutiny applied to direct to consumer, right? This is a real moment of reckoning for a lot of companies where if you can't do business for a month, you have to shut down or you have to lay off a majority of your workforce. It's probably not great that supply chain is so fragmented right now. And I think there's also at the same time a bit of brand fatigue that was already happening prior to the pandemic where there's so many direct to consumer companies being made right now where the founders don't actually have much expertise in the space. Right? They just had the idea, they were able to get venture capital because they're connected in that world, and they were able to launch a company. And they can put all that money into pay it, and they can acquire a bunch of customers. Helena: But the problem with not knowing your space is that you're not able to iterate quickly. And it seems like we're about to enter a world where we just don't know what curve balls we're going to see. Right? Like international trade is a bit testy right now. We may see people become a little bit more nationalistic in terms of supply chain. We don't know. So I think at the very least we're going to see more money going to founder teams that have at least one founder with deep, deep industry experience, whether that's a generational family heritage or whether it's a decade plus of experience in the industry because you at the very least need the connections on that side of things to have leverage, right? You may not have to own it all yourself, but if you don't have any real leverage in that world, then you're toast. So I think that's going to impact a lot of what brands, not just survive right now, but what brands get funded in the future. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. It definitely feels like we have been in an environment where it's like just try and create a quick MVP and see if it works and if not, go on to the next one and keep trying until you find one that maybe works. And I think that's a really great point of you should probably have some kind of deep expertise in whatever you're going into. Because one, you have to love it for a long time if you're going to actually follow through with it and being good at something probably means you're going to have a good business as well. Helena: Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's like, of course it goes good when it's good, right? But at the end of the day, it's not just about product market fit. If you don't have real control over your life business and how your product is made, then as soon as a curve ball hits, you realize you're just as fragile as any other business. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah, completely agree. When it comes to someone either launching a new product or building a whole new business, what's one thing that you would suggest for them to try out based on the success that you've had from your store? Helena: I mean, again, it sounds like obvious, but it's not, I would put so much more effort into product than you may feel comfortable with. It's riskier. It takes more resources. But in consumer, I just don't think that MVP is going to cut it anymore. So in a time where paid right now is performing well, but ultimately we're in a postpaid world. We're in a post soft bank high growth venture capital world. People have to start taking organic growth more seriously. And the easiest way to do that is to have a product that's good, and tastes good, and feels good, and looks good. It's one of those things where it feels easy to cut corners up front, but you really only have one chance to make a first impression. And those first impressions, they carry the weight of viral growth. So I would really put more resources into that than you're comfortable with and it'll pay off. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. And I saw you all doing that in your unboxing experience. Do you want to talk a little bit about that buying experience and how you thought about creating something that would ... you would make something that would be socially shared potentially, like a pretty box, a pretty bottle? I think you were putting different pamphlets and stuff inside that people actually wanted to share. How did you think about creating an experience that would go viral like that? Helena: Yeah, I mean, it's pretty amazing to watch how much the bottle and the box is shared because we haven't asked anyone to share it ever, and it just keeps getting shared. But again, I think for us it was about like, "Okay, all of these touch points are important to the person." Right? Like they're not just buying an aperitif, they're buying an experience. They're buying even a good website experience. They're buying a good post purchase flow. They're buying a good unboxing experience. They're buying a good bottle. All of those things are just as important in direct to consumer as the actual liquid in the bottle. So for us, we put a lot of effort into the glass bottle. We wanted it to look beautiful in your home. We wanted it to feel good. We wanted it to look really tight. Helena: And we wanted the same with the box, right? Woody has a great relationship with a box maker from his many years in the industry. And we were able to do custom boxes really easily with him. And we just wanted to make something that was very simple that fit into as many homes as possible. And just the point where it was looking beautiful, right? The point wasn't to sell the product because they already bought the product, [inaudible] doesn't need to do that. It really was about looking good and making the customer feel good. Helena: And then with every package there's an editorial that comes in and that's more of that educational component that I was talking about where that's another opportunity. Yes, it costs money to make an editorial pamphlet, but in that pamphlet, the customer can learn about me and Woody, they can learn about the farm, they can learn about what appetites are, the history of them, where they belong in the world, why they exist, they can learn a few ways to make a cocktail with Haus. It's this kind of deep wham bam education right in their face. They didn't have to pursue it. It's just there for them. And by the time that they're done reading it, they have a deep understanding of how to use the product and they feel like they know me and Woody, they feel like they deeply understand where it comes from, and we didn't have to do anything. Right? We just did all the work upfront. Stephanie: Yep. Do you personalize that experience after the first time they buy they might get one type of editorial and then when they come back, do you send a different one and do you keep track of how they're doing like how each editorial or unboxing is performing? Helena: Well, we've started only sending editorials with the first order that people make. But we've found that actually people like, "Oh wait, no, I was going to give this as a gift. I want the editorial." So we're still trying to figure that out. Because there's so many people that gift Haus to other people that we've realized that the first order or the second word doesn't necessarily mean that it's that person's second bottle. It might be someone else's first bottle. Stephanie: Yeah. That's a really good point not to make assumptions like that and also just really great developing that relationship. I mean, if I were to see a picture of you and Woody, and the whole background and history, I would feel like I have a personal connection with you where I would want to come back and buy from you all instead of going to a liquor store to buy something from someone that I don't know. So yeah, that all sounds really smart. Helena: Yeah. I mean, it's me and Woody like Haus is me and Woody and it's a competitive advantage, right? There's very few companies where the founders are physically making the product. So we want you to know us because this is our life's work and we're really proud of what we made. And we want you to know where it comes from because that's important to us, so it works out. Stephanie: Completely agree. All right, and these last few minutes, we do something called a lightning round where you answer the question in a minute or less. Let me know if you're ready and I will start firing them off. Helena: Ready. All right. Stephanie: What's up next for the next product that you're going to be enjoying from Haus? Helena: A summer flavor that was around last year and it's coming back for this year. Stephanie: Ooh. Any hints to the ingredients or what that could be? Helena: It's Rose Rosé. People know. Stephanie: Yeah. I didn't know that sounds delicious. Helena: It's amazing. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue? Helena: Ooh, probably more cooking documentaries. I can't watch a lot of TV. It stresses me out, but I love cooking shows. Stephanie: Yeah, those are very relaxing. What's up next on your Workday? We heard Woody outside your recording studio, AKA your car that's outside the warehouse. So what's he doing today? Why was he trying to get you to move your car? Helena: Woody is trying to move a bunch of pallets of product. They're making a new batch of Ginger Yuzu right now and they're finishing up some prototypes for the restaurant project. I am going to get off this podcast, answer like a hundred more emails and write a bunch of gift cards for people gifting Haus, and then I'm going to do another interview this afternoon. Stephanie: Very cool. All right. In a slightly harder one, what's up next for e-commerce pros? Helena: Ooh. I think it's taking a big step back and reflecting. That is the most important thing you can do right now. Stephanie: Completely agree. All right, Helena this has been a blast. I can't wait to try Haus. Where can we find you and buy some of your amazing beverages? Helena: You can buy them online at drink.haus. And you can follow along with us on the internet @drinkhaus on Twitter and Instagram. And yeah, we hope to send you some booze soon. It's great for breastfeeding, by the way. Stephanie: Yum, I will have to indulge in that. It sounds perfect for me right now. Helena: Yep. Stephanie: All right. Thanks so much for coming on the show. It's been a blast. Helena: Thank you again. Talk soon.

Welcome!   For being locked down do to this Pandemic there is certainly a lot of technology in the news this week.  So let's get into it.  We are finding that managers are surveilling their employees, probably a little more than necessary and an uptick in VPN usage. Big Tech is strangling us and WordPress has a vulnerability plus much more   So sit back and listen in.  For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: Hey everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN. Spring is in the air. I am so excited about this, you know, I love pretty much every season. I was just thinking the other day how I missed not having, you know, like crunchy snow that you can walk on. I know you might think I'm crazy, right? I know other family members of mine who absolutely think I'm crazy, but it's, maybe it's just a thing from my childhood, you know, being 40 degrees below zero and being outside and just walking in the snow and just having a crunch, crunch, crunch. [00:00:40] But you know, so wintertime makes me enjoy spring makes me enjoy summer to a bit of a lesser degree, but I love going motorcycling so that works right? In the summertime. And then I really like fall probably my favorite season and then winter is pretty good. I'm not a winter sports kind of guy. I should probably do a little bit more of that. [00:01:01] Well, if you saw me on the TV news this week, you know that I was talking a lot about this new surveillance society that we have. Yeah. I'm not just talking about general regular surveillance that we've talked about before. I'm talking about surveillance in the workplace. And now there are two sides of this. [00:01:23] Of course, there are like two sides to everything and there's the side of the employee and then there's the side of the employer. And so we're going to spend a little time right now going through some of the things on both sides. If you're an employer, why you might want to be doing surveillance. In fact, in some ways, why you should be doing surveillance, if you're an employee, what are your rights? [00:01:46] What can you do about it? We'll be talking about that. And then some of the software the businesses are using and what you can expect. So let's sort of been talking about a lot this week over on various radio stations and on television as well this week. So getting right into this, and you'll see some articles about this up on my website as well, at Craig peterson.com [00:02:10] Oh and man did I get a kick in the pants this week, you know I've been doing a little bit of work on the website because we're putting some new stuff together for people. For y'all and I, I went to CraigPeterson.com/subscribe and just tried to check it out. So guess what. It doesn't work. Slash Subscribe to me. I just hate it when that happens. [00:02:35] So if you have tried to subscribe on my website before to get my weekly newsletter or get some of my special reports because you get, I think it's four of them when you subscribe, I send those off to you and you went to CraigPeterson.com/subscribe to subscribe. It may not have worked. So I'm going to be working some more on that this week. [00:02:58] I got that problem and then I've got a problem as well with the text number, the (855) 385-5553 number. And I guess it's kind of like the cobbler's kids that have no shoes, right? Where man. There are so many things that I need to do and I've been doing for customers and lately, I've been doing even more for non-customers, is trying to help everybody out because there are so many people that are in such dire straits right now. [00:03:26] You know, all businesses have changed. Talking about the pivot and pivoting to work at home has been a very big deal. In fact, I'm going to. Probably have a little course on that coming up here in a couple of weeks. What to do if you a business and you're kind of pivoting to homeworkers maybe permanently, but certainly for the next little while. [00:03:45] What should you be doing from the security standpoint? I think it's really important for everyone to understand and to do. Many managers are turning to surveillance software and. I got this idea about a norm reminder really from the Washington Post this week now, Washington post, you know, I don't trust him at all for any of their political coverage because they haven't been honest with any of us for quite a while, but some of their technology coverage isn't bad. [00:04:14] It's kind of like the New York Times. It's such a shame because the New York times has such great. In-depth articles on so many things, and then they completely misrepresent politics all the time, like a hundred percent consistent, and it's, so, I'm just always torn. Do I pay any attention to these guys or not? [00:04:35] You know, I certainly look at their coverage too when it comes to the political stuff, cause I have to make a judgment call myself. But man, I don't mind supporting the regular things, but their editorial things are in their decisions as to which stories to run. Sometimes they're just so antithetical to everything, I believe. [00:04:55] But anyway, enough of that. So the Washington post article. Kind of got me thinking about it. So I did a bunch of research and I have one, two, three pages of a bullet point that I want to go through with you. Because I did research. I looked at a lot of things online. I looked at some of the websites of these companies making this, I don't know if you want to call it spyware, but that's kind of what it boils down to and figured out what's going on there. I had looked at some of the legal issues from the federal government side and from the state government, and here's the bottom line. When in doubt, assume you're being watched now. [00:05:36] I think that's a reasonable assumption in this day and age, right? We've all got our smart devices. We're online. We know that companies like Google and Facebook are compiling information to sell it about us, and I'm not sure that that's an absolutely horrific thing. I get more concerned when we're talking about employers surveilling us because if you have a bad boss or not so great boss, what's going to happen when that boss comes down on you for taking a break. [00:06:09] Right? Even a short break, you know? Yeah. You took a 15-minute break or whatever it was that was not, you know, necessary for them to come down on you. That's where I started getting concerned. People losing their jobs over this. Now, in some cases, if you're a transcriptionist and you're paid by the word, well, you know, why would they bother? [00:06:29] Monitoring me. I'm paid by the word, right? Who cares? You know? Obviously I have to deliver in a certain timeframe, but if it takes me all day and I have a 24-hour guarantee and I'm only typing one word a minute,  it's no skin off my employer's nose. And on the other end of the scale, if you are kind of intellectual work and you're working. [00:06:52] At a higher level, if you will, right? You're not just selling your, your keystroke, your fingers. You're actually thinking about problems. You're trying to logically analyze what's going on, what should be done, what shouldn't be done. If you're that type of person while then it's a completely different thing, right? [00:07:12] Again, how do you measure that? Because you might be reading a book, you might, you might have read a book last night and now you're in the office and you're looking at that book from last night cause you want to make some notes on it because you're one implemented into the office and now your employer's looking at you saying, well why hasn't your screen changed. [00:07:31] So that's the other side. So I get really concerned with the employers somehow thinking that this type of monitoring is a panacea for them. It's not going to motivate their employees to work. It just totally reminds me of when I was a professor on faculty out at Pepperdine University, and I taught, back then it was called MIS management information systems 422 out at Pepperdine. [00:07:57] And one of the things we had to look at was something called the Hawthorne principle. And they had done a study in Hawthorne, California of workers on a manufacturing line. And the big question was do they perform better when they're being monitored or when they're not being monitored? There were some interesting studies to this looking at music in the background. [00:08:21] Do you perform better when you have music playing in the background just at a low volume or better when it's quiet? Well, in all of these cases, it depends on what you're doing. Workers tend to perform better. With music in the background when they're doing kind of a rote task when they're working on an assembly line, and it's the same thing over and over and over again, that tends to help those people. [00:08:50] But when we're talking about an intellectual worker who is planning, who's thinking things through, who's writing marketing materials, who's doing software development, in most cases. They perform worse with music in the background and they're better off just having some basic white noise going on, which could be as simple as a fan. [00:09:13] It could be office chatter, et cetera, and I actually use some things in order to put that into the background myself, and I find them to be very, very helpful. You can find all kinds of them online. If you wanted to know exactly which ones I use, send me an email and I'll let you know, just me@craigpeterson.com but I have a plugin that goes into my browser. [00:09:37] That has a coffee shop, the ring of fire, burning, you know, outside a bird chirping, wind blowing, water lapping just, it has a few of those things. And, and I can select what I want and if I need to kind of focus on something, I find that to be very, very helpful. so when it comes to monitoring in the Hawthorne effect. [00:10:04] What they found is that yes, in some cases monitoring people. Worked out better, they produce better than not monitoring people. And that kind of reminds me of a good war movie that I absolutely loved. I don't think it was a great escape. Oh, no. I remember what it was. it was Schindler's list and there were supposed to be making hinges. [00:10:28] These are, of course, prisoners, that are being used as slave labor. And. They are supposed to be making these hinges. And so the guard comes over, lets me see, we make a hinge and he makes one in a matter of just seconds or minute or whatever it is. And then under the Hawthorne. That'd be principal here. [00:10:48] If he makes one hinge in one minute, he should be able to make 60 hinges in an hour. And yet they were only making, I don't remember what any of these numbers were. It's been a long time since I saw that movie. But, he didn't make his many, so obviously he got in trouble, as did other people who were on the assembly line. You know, if there's a gun to your head, maybe you will work better, maybe you will work faster. But in most cases, that's not true. And that was certainly true of these people who were confined to slave labor. They're in the Schindler's list movie. So we're going to talk a lot more about this when we get back because nearly half of the US labor force is now. working from home. [00:11:30] That's according to a study by MIT researchers in April, so just a couple of weeks ago, stick around. We're going to talk a lot more about this when we get back. You are listening to Craig Peterson right here on WGAN, and you'll hear me every Wednesday morning, give or take at 7:30 on with Matt. [00:11:52] Stick around. We'll be right back. Craig Peterson: Hey, welcome back everybody. Craig Peterson here, on WGAN. I hope you're enjoying your Saturday, or if you're listening to me online, whatever day it is, you're listening, and of course, you can get that online experience through any podcast app. I'm on tune in. I'm on pretty much everywhere. You'll just be able to find me by looking for Craig Peterson. [00:00:28] The easiest way is just go to CraigPeterson.com/your favorite app when it comes to podcasts, whatever it is, and it'll just do a redirect for you, send you right to the right spot, whether it's iTunes or Spotify or whatever it is. So we were talking before the break about what's happening here with surveillance scene, surveilling our employees out there. [00:00:55] And we're seeing some major changes. Now, some of these started actually a few years ago because businesses are rightly concerned about their intellectual property being stolen, and they need to know if an employee is. About to leave and leave with their customer list. And I have certainly seen that happen before. [00:01:17] Unfortunately, we often get these phone calls after the fact, after the data's already been stolen, the employee's gone, or whatever it is. But you know, that's kind of the way it is, right? Most businesses and people aren't willing to do anything about it until it goes over the cliff and this case. So what do we do as employers if we want to protect our information? [00:01:41] Because it's proprietary, right? That's called intellectual property for a reason, and the reason that it's proprietary is you just don't want it stolen and it gives you the advantage that you need to have. MIT researchers, as I mentioned before, are saying the nearly half of the US workforce is now working from home, which is absolutely massive. [00:02:06] We're seeing. VPN usage way up, and you know, I have a whole course on VPNs, the free one that I've been doing, and VPNs are not a panacea at all. In fact, they can make things much worse for you if you're trying to be secure. We've got these tattle wearables. Programs out there now that are doing everything from watching what you're typing and alerting the manager if you're typing in certain words that they think might mean that you are leaving their employee. [00:02:40] Right? So going to a website and employment website could cause, could cause a phone call from your manager. But we do have to check this. We do have to be careful. If you are going to be monitoring your employees, you need to make sure it's in the employee handbook. You want to be upfront with your employees and from the employee's side, remember that some of the software will do everything, like keep track of your keystrokes, watch the websites you're visiting, which is always the case. [00:03:13] A reasonable business is going to be tracking website visits. So keep that in mind. But, They're also going to potentially be screen capturing and maybe even capturing a picture from your camera. Some of them also will listen on the microphone and I get it. You know, it can be very demoralizing. [00:03:36] You've been working for a company for years, maybe decades, and now all of a sudden you've been, you're being spied on. Right? You think you've been a good worker, so talk with them. There are no federal laws against employee monitoring. In the private sector. There are a number of state laws, but many of these employers are crossing these ethical lines by continuing to track the employees after they've clocked out for the day. [00:04:05] So if you're an employee. Your best bet may be to just turn off the computer, turn off the laptop. If you have a smartphone that's been issued by the company, turned that off as well. If you have an app that is from the company, you might want to kill it. So it's no longer tracking and make sure your settings on your iPhone are set to only allow tracking while the app is active. [00:04:32] So those are a few things. You can talk to your HR department if you think something's happening that shouldn't be. And if you filed an internal complaint and nothing is really happening, you can file the same complaint with the securities and exchange commission, the equal opportunity employment commission, or the state organizations. [00:04:53] All right? By the way, you don't have to be informed that you are being spied upon. So keep that in mind. [00:05:01] So next step here, I want to talk about something from American thinker.com there's a great article there about big tech and how it is frankly strangling us right now. We have that 1984 ad. [00:05:17] Do you remember that? where. All of these people were sitting in a kind of Orwellian room, a socialist room. Everybody's dressed the same because you only have one type of clothes you can buy. Yeah. [00:05:29] By the way, Hey, thanks, guys. For this, what has it been two months exhibition of what socialism's really like? There's nothing on the shelves right now. [00:05:38] What do you remember that they're all sitting there and they're fighting this technocratic elite. When that woman runs down and throws the hammer at the screen. And obviously it was a pretty gloomy spot that ran, and I think it didn't have first run during the super bowl if I remember. Bottom line, but the tech giants now, like Apple and Google, all of these guys have really morphed into what is now, I think, near totalitarian giants. [00:06:13] No, they are controlling our speech. You got Candace Owens, brilliant woman. She's suspended from Twitter for challenging the Michigan governor. Facebook has flagged the declaration of independence as hate speech. It's incredible what's going on. We see Aaron Renn reporting that conservative and left-wing groups are being pulled down at Twitter, and that was back in 2016 2019 YouTube has been blocking some British history teachers from. [00:06:49] YouTube entirely for uploading archival material related to Adolf Hitler. Yeah. Heaven forbid that we remember what happened with him and YouTube said that these British history teachers were breaching. Guidelines banning the promotion of hate speech, even though they weren't promoting it, they were trying to let people know, Hey, this has happened before. [00:07:15] It can happen again. It's absolutely incredible. And, and where is that line drawn with the national socialists in Germany? Right? You remember? That's what they were. That's what Nazi stood for. National socialists. So the socialists there in Germany, they put out all kinds of a propaganda film about how great they were. [00:07:35] We were only telling half-truths. Sound familiar, right? and they're these British history teachers. Apparently we're putting some of these apps so people understood what it looked like to have manipulation coming from the government. So they deleted the videos, abrupt loaded to help educate future generations about the risks of socialism. [00:08:00] It's absolutely incredible. Now, Michael Cutler wrote just a couple of years ago that Twitter has, I love this language now morphed into a means of thought control. Through the control of language. Now we have, through the government, through the legislature and the federal level, we have given these companies immunity from prosecution in most cases because we say, Hey, it's like a public bulletin board. [00:08:30] People are up there saying stuff and YouTube and Twitter, et cetera. You're not liable if someone posts, posts, hate speech, et cetera, on your site. And now they're acting as though they might be liable. And so now because they're acting this way, should we remove their, their special treatment of being basically common carrier? [00:08:57] They're, they're saying, Hey, listen, we're, we're more like the telephone company than anything else than a newspaper. We don't have editorial control over the content and we don't control the content. Well, guess what? Those days are long past us. We need to make some changes here, okay? These big internet companies know more about you than you know about yourself, frankly. [00:09:20] And there's a study that came out, this was a years ago, where average consumers are checking their smartphones 150 times a day, and that number. Has grown, so we've got to make some changes. All right, everybody, stick around. We'll be right back. We're going to talk about some attacks that are going on. If you like to go online, visit websites, or particularly if you have your own business or personal website. [00:09:46] I got some news for you about attacks that are underway right now. Stick around. You're listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN. Craig Peterson: Hey, welcome back everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN yeah. Big tech is strangling us. We talked about that and how laws really need to change. I know that Chairman Pai over the FCC has been trying to tighten the things up a little bit, but there's been a lot of pushback from the left end from some people in their bureaucracy. [00:00:26]We also all already talked about the managers turning to surveillance software. And I understand why many of them are doing it to protect their intellectual property more than to make sure you're working at least. That's been the case historically. Now they're doing a little bit differently. They're actually trying to make sure you're working. [00:00:46] So if you are someone that has a website and it could be just a basic website, like something that you have for your local boy scout troop, or many, many of the other ones out there, your very likely to be using some open-source software called Wordpress. [00:01:07] WordPress is a great piece of software and I've been using it for many, many years. I used to hand-roll websites, which means I was sitting there writing the HTML code and putting everything in and it just wasn't very pretty. And then I moved over to an Adobe product. To do it. And then, then I went to something called WebGui, which was another piece of software to help run websites and build them. [00:01:35] And then I ended up on WordPress and I've been there for many, many years. Basically, since WordPress started. It has been quite a great little. Tool. So if you're thinking as well, by the way of putting up a website, let's say you want to start a business. Let's say you are a brick and mortar business, and frankly, you're looking to transition from brick and mortar to online first, which is what I think every business needs to be doing. [00:02:03] I want you to have a serious look at this. You can find it online. There are two WordPress sites. There's wordpress.com that you can go to online. And WordPress dot com just takes care of everything for you. They, they're a hosting company. They have themes. You can use a, they make it really quite simple. [00:02:25] It is not the most flexible but let me just give you a little bit of warning, but. All right? In this day and age, it's like 35% of the web is built on WordPress, so I'm looking at the numbers here on their website or their pricing plan. And for personal use, it is $4 a month. That is if you are paying for a year at a time so that that's hard to beat, isn't it? [00:02:59] And for premium, which I say is best for freelancers, it is $8 a month. Again, if you pay a yearly small business, they've got $25 per month and e-commerce. $45 a month. Now, the main difference between all of these different price points for WordPress. It has to do with domain name registration. Like if you're free, you probably don't have your own domain. [00:03:28] If you're a business, you're going to need your own domain name. Some of them have live support, 24/7 some of these, the basic packages only have email support. Premium themes are only available in the higher packages. You know, the business ones, which are premium business and commerce, they've gotten marketing and monetization tools that you can use at the business level. [00:03:54] Some search engine optimization, some advertising analytics, they have just a whole bunch of things that you can do. And then, then the highest end in e-commerce, they're adding on accepting payments and 60. Plus countries. Integrations with top shipping carriers, unlimited products or services, eCommerce marketing tools, premium customizable starter themes for 45 bucks a month. [00:04:22]So then this is kind of a duh, if you are looking to start a little business and have it online, if you have a business and you're looking to move it online, we're talking about WordPress right now. So wordpress.com is where you go for all of that. Now I get more complicated, than any of these provide for. [00:04:45] So I can't just use wordpress.com and I actually use WP engine as well as I self hosts some sites. In other words, I have my own servers because of my company Mainstream, we have our own data center. So why not? Right. But in some cases, like my bigger websites, I have up at WP engine and they maintain everything for me. [00:05:10] It's actually running on a Google platform, but they will automatically size it, resize it, and I can do absolutely anything I want. So if you want to be able to do anything you want, you're not going to use a wordpress.com. You're going to go to wordpress.org. Now, wordpress.org is the software that is behind wordpress.com and it's the software that I, again, 35% or so of the web uses. [00:05:43] I actually think it's probably higher than that, and most places use WordPress nowadays, and it's just so flexible. It's no longer just a blogging platform. And they have some built-in beautiful themes. I use something called Divi, which is a page builder. There's a few of them out there, Beaver, Ellementor. [00:06:03] Those are the three big ones. And if you're interested in, in thinking, Hey Craig, maybe you should do a class on this for us. Well, let me know. I'd be glad to put something together, but you got to tell me. Right? I just don't know. Otherwise, me, Me@craigpeterson.com if you'd like a class on this, and I know some people like Nancy Fields out there who she'll help people with their sites and put them together, but wordpress.org is where you go to get the software you need to put on too. [00:06:36] Some of these hosting services that you can use, and there's a million of them out there. Really. There's a lot, and then the kind of the ultimate, if you will, as the WP engine guys, but I brought this up to let you know the basics, right? This is what you want to look at. If you're thinking about going online. [00:06:54] But on the other side, I want to warn people right now because security teams and businesses have their hands full dealing with these COVID-19 related threats that are out there, and there are a lot of them, and right now the biggest problem isn't the hackers. The biggest problem is people clicking on emails and then getting ransomware. [00:07:16] We have a client that just. Yes. No, it was earlier in the week, I think it was Tuesday, one of their employees downloaded some software and he needed some software for windows to do some screen grabs cause he wanted to just grab a few things for off of the screen and save them the, save that graphic and use it in some documents. [00:07:38] So he went online, he did some searching and he found some screen. grabbing software, and lo and behold, there's this wonderful screen grab software for free that he downloads, and guess what? It's ransomware. So because we were doing all of the stuff for them and we had the really, the top anti-malware software that's out there very advanced stuff. [00:08:03] It detected it, it stopped it, it stopped it from spreading almost. Instantly, and that was just a phenomenal thing to have happened. It stopped it and it stopped the spread right away. So right now in WordPress, we're seeing a 30 fold increase in attacks on WordPress websites out there. , this is just dramatic. [00:08:27] So if you are running a word press word site or website, you're going to want to really, really have a look at it, make sure it's completely patched up because just like windows and Mac, iOS and iOS and Android, you have to apply patches. Man. It's like a grand central station here today. People in an out. [00:08:48] Anyhow, let's see. A million websites were reported, attacked, in the week from April 28th for one week. On May 3rd alone, they counted in excess of 20 million attacks against some half a million WordPress sites. It's just absolutely crazy. And by the way, they're coming in from more than 24,000. [00:09:10] Distinct IP addresses. What that means people are your machine to have been compromised and the bad guys are using them to launch attacks against websites and other people, which is not news, but it is news to most of those 24,000 people whose computers. Are being used to launch attacks. [00:09:32] You are Listening to Craig Peterson. Stick around because we're going to be right back. Talk a little bit about Zoom and how they are going to fix their chats. Stick around. We'll be right back and of course, visit me online at CraigPeterson.com. Craig Peterson: Hello everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN. You can hear me here every Saturday from one till 3:00 PM and on with  Matt  Gagnon Wednesday mornings at 734 this week because the mayor was on, let's see, it was Friday at like eight Oh eight or something like that. So. Was very, a little bit, off. But I'm here from one til three. [00:00:31] Anyways. And for those listening online, of course, I am on pretty much every podcasting app out there. And in some ways, I'm one of the pioneers of this thing. I've been doing this podcasting stuff for over 20 years, so for a very, very long time. I don't know, it kind of makes you feel old. So, so far today we just talked about WordPress and how you can use that. [00:00:53] For your business where you can go online and order to find the right hosting environment for your WordPress site. We talked a little bit about how WordPress also has security vulnerabilities like anything else and what is going on right now. I also spoke about half an hour ago here about how big. [00:01:16] Technology is a drag, just strangling, just totally strangulating all of us with their censorship free speech just doesn't exist when you're talking about the big guys. And then, of course, we started out the show talking about surveillance software in what managers have been doing with the surveillance software over the years. [00:01:42] It's really bad, frankly. What's been going on. And right now we're going to talk a little bit about something. Pretty much I think everybody in the country's been on, and that is zoom. Now, if you have not been on zoom, let me just explain it really briefly, and that is zoom is a video conferencing. App, it's been around for a while now, was written by a couple of kids and they did a terrible job with the security side of things. [00:02:14] It works well, it's easy to use, and so they did a very good job on that. And frankly, if they hadn't, they wouldn't be kind of the premier video conferencing app right now. We just used it for mother's day. I set up a zoom conference for my mother and of course my stepfather, and we did another one for my, my father, and my stepmother, and we had the kids on there like 16 people called into it, and I chose zoom. [00:02:48] Knowing that it was easy to use, that a lot of people use zoom and really like it, but also knowing about the major security problems. Right? We're talking about mother's day, so I'm not worried about losing intellectual property. I'm not really worried about having people's zoom bombed me, and that is where zoom bombing has been going on like crazy. [00:03:12] But zoom bombing is where somebody. Gets onto your zoom conference and does something nasty. anything from sexual stuff through, I, I've heard of, swastikas coming up, you know, the good old socialist national socialist party of Germany and world war two I've heard about all just all kinds of terrible things that have been coming up. [00:03:37] So I wasn't worried about Zoom by me, so because I wasn't worried about privacy. Intellectual properties, zoom bombing. Okay. It's fine because I have a small business account on zoom. Now when I am doing something for my business, this business-related or I'm concerned about intellectual property or security, then I use WebEx because it is a, not just a regular WebEx, but a secured WebEx because it is a. [00:04:05] Very well known commodity out there, something that many people, have been looking at and the federal government uses, military uses, et cetera, et cetera. So that's kind of what I do. So zoom has had a very, very bad rap as of late and for, I think, frankly, it's for many, many good reasons. And I'm, I'm on Google right now, and you know, I recommend you use duck, duck, go. [00:04:32] But I'm going to use Google because of the fact that that's what most people are using. And I wanted to have the same results you'd see. So I just went into Google news and I said, zoom security. And it's got a, the latest updates, the highs, the lows. Here's what you need to know. Avoid the app and do this instead. [00:04:53] Here's why. It's from Forbes. Zoom five offers new security and privacy features. That's the new version of zoom, the new major version that they've released. In case you didn't get that notification, make sure you upgrade zoom. zoom settles with New York attorney general over privacy and security concerns. [00:05:13] This is just two days ago. Zooms tips for safety as recommended by video conference, express zoom issues, play security issues, plays a spotlight on other video platforms, privacy troubles. but here's the one that I think is kinda interesting. This one's from. Forbes and that is Zoom buys key base in bold, new security move. [00:05:37] How this could change everything. If you've been listening for a while, you know, I've been talking about how there are still security jobs open. You know, right now, security is kind of at the bottom of the list for most of the businesses out there because businesses are saying, Hey, we just don't know what's going to happen with our business going forward. [00:05:59] So, let's just drop security who need security, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a bit of a problem if you ask me. And so because of that. I, you know, there, there's probably been a drop, I think, in the number of security jobs that are currently open, but we were talking about two and a half million, you know, up to 3 million open cybersecurity jobs before this whole pandemic. [00:06:26] It is, frankly, we need security now more than ever as business people and at home because we're under attack more than ever. But this is Zoom's first acquisition. Now I would actually call it more of an acquire than an acquisition. And if you're not familiar with that term, it's big probably because it's a pretty new term. [00:06:52] And an Aqua hire is where you find a company that has talent in it that you need or you want. And so how do you hire those people away? You probably can't, and it is a team of people working there, so you got to figure, they probably work together. They know how to work together. They know what some of the things are they need to do to work together. [00:07:19] So you just go ahead and you buy the whole company. So they're calling it an acquisition. In reality, this seems more like an acquire and Zoom got this 90-day plan to improve their security in this whole video conferencing system. We'll see what ends up happening. The terms of this deal weren't disclosed. [00:07:41] I'm sure a part of it is usually, Hey, all of the employees have to stay, or these key people have to stay. And then as part of the acquisition, they'll pay everybody some sort of an amount. So it isn't just the stakeholders. They're stockholders that make money off of this. Everybody stays around, but this is their first acquisition zooms nine years old in case you didn't know that if you thought they just came out of nowhere. [00:08:09] It's one of these overnight successes that took nine years to get there, but they're saying that as of a couple of weeks ago, there were 300 million people. On zoom, that's dramatic. In December, it was estimated that there were 10 million people. Now for the FBI InfraGard webinars that we were running, the FBI wanted us to use Zoom. [00:08:34] I don't know why, but that's what InfraGard wanted us to use. That's what I used. So we were part of that 10 million. To up to 300 million. Can you imagine that kind of growth so you can see how they had to do something, do something fast? They could not just staff up for it, but they're planning on creating a secure private and a scalable video communication system. [00:08:58] Part of the problem they've had recently when it comes to scalability is they have been routing people's teleconferences through China and other parts of the world. And of course, those really upset people when they found out about it because of course China sits there and spies on everything that's going on now. [00:09:19] The company that they acquired is called Keybase. They spent the last six years building a secure messaging and file sharing service. And with this, users can chat and share with team members and communities knowing that the messages are end to end encrypted. So the other thing with this acquire that zoom may be getting is the ability now to have chat and file sharing, which is something that. [00:09:49]Microsoft teams have that WebEx teams have, right? That's what the team's apps have. And even Slack has built-in now some communications ability. You can have small meetings and make calls to other users. And zoom is planning on putting this encrypted end to end meeting mode in for the paid accounts. [00:10:12] So if you have a free account, you're probably not going to get it, at least not initially. And then they're going to use public-key encryption, which is something that is, say, Pattonville a little bit of a go. But it's absolutely the way to do it. So I'm glad to hear that there are some adults in the room now over at zoom and they realized, not invented here syndrome is not going to help them grow. [00:10:37] It's not going to solve their security problems. And so they, I acquired a company that has been doing this type of security for quite a while. So, okay, here we go. This is a, an article from, this is dark reading, I think. Yeah. and they're saying as part of the deal, key basis, team members will become zoom employees. [00:11:00] So there you go. Okay. they, so they are planning on publishing a draft for their cryptographic design, next Friday. So it's coming up pretty soon. So we'll keep you up to date on this. I promised I would in the past let you know what zoom is doing and how they're doing and where they're going, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. [00:11:21] So I'm really glad to hear that zoom is pulling up their socks. So we are going to go away for a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about one of these companies that has smart hubs and what they have done. And this is kind of a story about what happens at end of life. And it's something that every business needs to think about. [00:11:48] If you're using salesforce.com Microsoft, you name it. Those companies are eventually going to go out of business. What happens when they go out of business? What's going to happen to your data? Whose data is it anyway? And in many cases, these companies are saying. It's my data. We own it, and if we lose it, we don't know you. [00:12:17] Anything. Real problem. If you asked me, so stick around. We'll be back here right after the break with news, et cetera, and we'll be talking more about all of this. You're listening to Craig Peter's son, right here on WGAN, and make sure you visit me online. Go to Craig peterson.com make sure you sign up for my newsletter so you can find out about the various cool stuff we've been working on and then we'll have out for you very, very soon. [00:12:45] Take care of everybody and stick around cause we'll be right back. Craig Peterson: Hey everybody. Welcome back. Craig Peterson here on WGAN and of course online as well at craigPeterson.com. We have been talking about a bunch of stuff today and you know, if you missed any of it, you can go to my website, Craig peterson.com this includes why businesses are using surveillance software. [00:00:25] To where what you can do as an employee if you think they are spying on you and what are your rights when it comes to some of this stuff, I talked also about what is happening with big tech and censorship and it really is a big problem, WordPress and how you can use that as a business. You know, if you are brick and mortar, you probably want to try and transition to more of an online model. [00:00:53] But even if you have a little bit of both, maybe WordPress is the way to go. So we talked a little bit about that when you can get WordPress as a service and also what you can do about it yourself. And by the way, attacks on WordPress are have gone up 30 fold in just the past few days. And then just before the top of the hour, we talked about zoom. [00:01:17] And how they have acquired a company in order to have end-to-end encryption on zoom. And I bet you also because of this acquisition, who they purchased the zooms going to be seen a new feature here where they're going to be doing a little bit of conferencing and. Collaboration. So I think that's going to be a good thing. [00:01:40] It's going to give a little competition to WebEx teams and also to our friends at Microsoft teams. Now, how many of you guys out there have been using some of these services. For your internet of things devices now, internet of things, devices that I'm talking about here. My kind of definition is anything that would normally be considered just a piece of hardware, you know, something that you turn on and use. [00:02:10] A good example would be some of these thermostats many of us have right. We've got these, now it's Google nest thermostats or some of the lights that we have. Well, many of these devices require what are called bridges because they using different technologies. So for instance, in my home, I've got some. [00:02:35] Now Apple home equipment, and of course we use Apple equipment almost exclusively in my business, and we have iPhones with iOS and Apple's home. The Apple home is the most secure way of controlling near your internet of things devices. The problem is that not many people make devices for Apple home, and that is because they are a little bit more expensive to make. [00:03:05] You have to have better encryption software. You have to pay the Apple tax because Apple developed it and Apple is going to charge you as a manufacturer to use their technology. So many of these companies have kind of gone off and done their own thing. We have some hue lights as well. H U E from Phillips. [00:03:25] Great lights, by the way. And those are all, again, controlled remotely, and we've got it tied in so that our iOS devices, our I-phones can turn on and off. The hue lights can turn on and off like our family room lights, et cetera, and can change the colors of lights. But because my internet of things devices are not directly compatible with Apple home, we had to get some special hubs. [00:03:58] So we have a small hub, and that hub speaks both the hue protocol. It speaks to a protocol that is used by the light dimmers in our main rooms, and it speaks Apple's protocol. Now. Were totally geeked out. So guess what? We have Linux running on a box. It does all of that stuff for us, right? So we can maintain it, we can update it, we can upgrade it. [00:04:23] We know what's going on. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're really not after me. Right. Well, there is a company out there called Wink that many people have been using for quite a while. Wink, I should say, looks pretty darn good. It was launched first about six years ago, and the idea was to be able to connect and control all of their devices through just one master wink interface. So wink exists to really kind of simplify life for somebody, right? [00:05:00] That's really into the internet of things. You've got your lights, you got your locks, your thermostat, your cameras, your appliances. And they're all coming from different brands and they need different apps to operate. [00:05:13] Nowadays. You even see refrigerators and ovens. Man, I think I saw the first internet-connected one about six years ago as well. Our washing machines, dryers, all of these things, and they're different brands, and even though they might be using the same protocol, it doesn't mean as implemented the same way. [00:05:35] So these devices just can't speak to each other. Enter wink. Now there are a number of different devices out there that can be used as a smart hub, but speak to different, you know, different protocols, different vendors, everything else. But a lot of people went to wink because you bought it once. And that's it. [00:06:00] It was free for the rest of your life. Now, wink cost more yes than some of these others, but you did not have a monthly subscription fee that you had to pay. Well, as of this week, Wink is starting to charge on a monthly basis for their devices. The quote from Wink and obviously then they're looking for cash. [00:06:24] Now, who isn't? Wink has taken many steps in an effort to keep your hubs blue light on. That's the light on the Wink Hub. However, long-term costs and recent economic events have caused additional strain on our business. Unlike companies that sell our data to offset costs associated with offering free services, we do not. [00:06:48] Little jab there at Google. Data privacy is one of Winks core values. And we believe that user data should never be sold for marketing or any purpose. So basically what they were doing is, no grandfathering. The mandate here is to pay up or we're gonna shut you off. Here's what they said. Should you choose not to sign up for a subscription, you will no longer be able to access your wink devices from the app with voice control or through the API, and your automation will be disabled on May 13th your device connection settings and automation can be reactivated if you decide to pay up,  excuse me, to subscribe at a later date. [00:07:35] So there's no warning. It's now $5 a month per device. Think about how many devices are out there and how many devices people might have. Right? I'm a little unclear as to whether it's only $5 per house because you might only have the one Wink Hub or if it's $5 per month per device. That's kind of how I read it, so it could be really, really expensive and people are very upset about it. [00:08:05] You know, on Reddit there are thousands of responses to this company's tweet that was posted there. Most people are just absolutely angry. You know, they paid a lot more to get something that had lifetime support, and here it is, no life-time support. Right? So this feels like a variation on a familiar theme because it's happened many times. [00:08:29] You know, these internet-connected light bulbs. Many of them no longer work as a company went out of business and the servers got shut down. Smart scales. Some cases they just got dumb and they show you your weight to no longer show you your history or weight loss or anything, and in some cases, they just don't work at all because the companies pulled the plug on the apps. [00:08:51] These pet feeders. We've talked about a couple of cool ones here. They've gone. Out of business, they completely stopped feeding pets. How about these vacuums that we have in our homes that are all automated? They're running around cleaning the houses. So this is nothing new. We have seen companies go out of business before, right? [00:09:12] You've seen companies go out of business, right? Tell me. You have told me I'm not crazy. And when the companies go out of business and they're providing a monthly service for you. Then what happens? This gets to be a very, very big deal, and I also want to caution businesses because it reveals a major hole in this whole cloud business. [00:09:40] You know, we look at the cloud and say, it's going to make my life simpler. It's going to keep my costs down. I don't have to worry about the side of it anymore. I'll just use this cloud service like Salesforce for instance, or, or Dropbox or whatever it might be in reality. [00:09:59] Now, remember that your core business information, your intellectual property regarding your customers, regarding your orders, regarding your sales, your inventories, all of the stuff that is now in the hands of a third party. So what's going to happen when that third party. Goes out of business, it could be really, really bad for you. And for me. [00:10:27] So one of the things that we always advise our customers is to make sure you have a third party in a place that's securing these cloud-based apps and is doing backups for you. [00:10:43] So for instance, most of them, Microsoft. Office through the, what do they call it now? Windows three 65 plans or whatever it is. Those email accounts don't have backups and there's no guarantee from Microsoft that they will not lose your data. So are you backing that up as well? That I think there's a lot of lessons for all of us in this, and be careful when you're buying something. [00:11:11] We just got a new dryer. I made sure you were not internet-connected. I don't want a dryer from a company sitting in my house on my network, even though I've got it separated out into the internet of things network. I don't want that device sitting there potentially providing a breach for the rest of my network. [00:11:34] So think about that, be careful with that. You're listening to Craig Peterson right here on WGAN. Stick around because we're going to talk about how Microsoft is getting rid of passwords. We'll be right back. Craig Peterson: Hey, welcome back everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN. Thanks for joining me today. I always appreciate it and I love getting your emails. I've got a couple of great ones this week. Again, Gary was out there letting me know what he was having some problems with. In fact, I even ended up getting on the phone with him to help him out a little bit with this whole tracking thing. [00:00:26] He was thinking that his GPS was being used to track him, and some people were really trying to mess with him while he's trying to make some money driving around. So I explained how the app he's using as a paid driver works, how tracks him, and how he can stop it from tracking him when he's not working. [00:00:47] So if you're driving for Uber eats or grub hub. Et cetera. That's, that's the sort of thing he's doing. And he was really kind of wondering about, because some people were changing the delivery point on deliveries and he'd show up at the new address and there's nobody there, and there's nobody at the old address. [00:01:07] And so he was really having some issues. Yeah. Obviously that can be a problem. So if you have any questions, whether it's about grub hub or anything else, by all means, just email me, ME@Craig peterson.com. Let me know how I can help. I'm always glad to give a little bit of help for absolutely nothing. [00:01:28] And obviously this is what I do for a living as well. So you know, if, if it's a lot of work, then I'm going to have to charge you. But anyhow, Microsoft. Now. passwords have been kind of the bane of my existence forever. I remember the very first time I had a password, I don't remember what it was. It would have been pretty simple back then but that was the early 1970s, and it was a non-online timeshare. [00:02:00] The Computer, an HP, I think it was like a 2000 access or 2000 after that got upgraded to an a and it was so totally cool. It was my first real computer access and we had a teletype, a TTY33 yay. Seven level. Yeah. So it was an a, it was really, really cool. [00:02:24] And that was my first major introduction to computers way back then and we had passwords now, the head of the, of the math department, and that's where was at the time I was in school then it was inside the math department. He always used some variation of his name for his password. And I still remember to this day, his name was Robert Allen Lang. [00:02:53]So, hi, Mr. Lang. If you're, if you're still around, actually, if you're listening, but He would always use a password that like R A lane or R Allen lane or, you know, you could always guess what his password was, so we would guess his password. And we'd use that to get more access. So for instance, our accounts could only have so much storage and the accounts could only have so much time per week to be used. [00:03:26] We just loved using as much time as we could. Oh, man. One of these days, I'll tell you some stories. And so we would hack into his account. And once we're in doing his account, we then gave ourselves upgraded privileges and online time and kind of everything else. So yeah, you know, that's what you do when you're a kid, but anyhow, you know, teenagers right? [00:03:54] Fast forward to today and passwords are still a problem. I've been using pretty darn good passwords for a very, very long time now, and as you probably are aware, if you sign up for my email list, I'll send you a special report on passwords, but you might be well aware that I really like one password. [00:04:16] It's by far the winner. There was some other half-decent password managers out there last pass being one of them, but 1password, absolutely the winner. And we also use DUO, which is a two-factor authentication system. So between the two of them, we're pretty secure and I have it generate passwords for me, which is really nice, and it'll generate passwords. [00:04:39] It's funny, many times I'll have a like a 20 plus character password and the website I'm on just doesn't support that. Sometimes it'll ask all, you didn't put enough special characters in, which, as you know, just doesn't count anymore. So make sure you get my password special report so you can see what the current advice is. [00:05:01] And it's really changed recently, current advice for passwords and what you should do. So we've got world password day and every year we talk about passwords and what you should do. And this is the first year I think we're seeing more people starting to really use new forms of authentication. We're working from home even at work, and people are starting to understand just how insecure and ultimately how costly passwords really are. [00:05:38] Our cybercriminals don't need advanced techniques when they can just bet on human behavior. Ponemon Institute did a survey in 2019 and this is all on security behaviors. Okay. And they found that 51% of 1700 information technology and information technology security professionals reused an average of five total passwords again and again and again across both their business and their personal accounts. [00:06:17] Now that is a very bad thing to do. There's something called password stuffing where they steal your password. And remember a couple of weeks ago I mentioned a, "have I been pawned" or powned website? And there's a feature that I put out as well. I don't think they're airing on WGAN, but they are on some other stations all about powned passwords. [00:06:41] Well, Once a password has been stolen and they know what it is and they know what your username is, they just start automatically going and checking banks, trying to log in with that email address and that password. So having the same password that you're using on more than one system is a very, very dangerous habit because if they get ahold of just one password, they know they can use it on other sites and they're probably going to be able to get in. [00:07:16] So this single compromised password can create just this chain reaction of theft and liability, frankly, on your part. And on average, one in every 250 corporate accounts is compromised each month. Think of that one in one in 22 really accounts is compromised every year. Wow. That is huge. I don't think I've ever seen that stat before. [00:07:48] So this expense of using passwords is really continuing to grow because we're using more business applications online, aren't we? I just talked about the cloud and some things she needed to be careful of with the cloud. Well, the cloud requires passwords and we're using those same passwords. Man. That is bad. [00:08:12]By the way, password reset is one of the highest support costs, especially in larger businesses. And that means that companies are dedicating 30 to 60% of the support desk calls to just resetting passwords. So. We all have to understand it better. We all need a multifactor authentication. The very least two-factor authentication and Microsoft now has this passwordless login. [00:08:43] You might've used it, you might've seen it where it's using the camera on your computer, and sometimes it's using other biometrics, like your fingerprints, et cetera. And there are new technologies out there that are being deployed, including in web browsers that we'll be talking about in the future as they get a little bit more well adopted. [00:09:03] But some of these keys, these USB authentication keys have a built-in, it's called Fido - FIDO so if you're interested, you can always dig that up and we'll be covering that. To a, you know, a future show, as I said, and I do do some training on that with my mentorship site. All right, everybody, stick around. [00:09:25] You're listening to Craig Peterson on WGAN and I'm going to talk a little bit about remote work and now. The security fight that's happening in the cloud. Make sure you join me as well. Wednesday mornings at 7:34 with Mr. Matt Gagnon morning drive time as we talk about the latest in technology. [00:09:50] Stick around. I'll be right back. Craig Peterson: Hey, good morning everybody. Craig Peterson here. We started out this whole show talking about surveillance here that managers are doing as they're surveilling their employees. I want to talk now a little bit about surveillance where we should be keeping an eye on our cloud devices. And our endpoint. [00:00:28] So let's start out with the cloud. You know, I call them devices. In some places, you might be using a server that's living up in maybe Microsoft Azure or Google's cloud, Amazon cloud, Amazon web services, et cetera. Those systems can all be compromised. And yeah, they're sitting in the data center. Yeah. You don't have to pay for the hardware or the electricity or the cooling, which is really nice. [00:00:58] Yeah. You don't have to hear all of the noise they make in the background, but many businesses have found that, wow, the cloud really isn't the panacea. I thought it was. And they're actually moving it back out of the cloud. And that's particularly true of businesses that have security concerns due to regulations because moving to the cloud does not absolve you, from these regulations. [00:01:27] Now we've got this additional problem of people working from home, so they're using either their own computers or maybe a company computer at home. They might be connecting to the office, but it's just as likely, maybe even more likely that they're connecting to a cloud service somewhere. Not, not just for collaboration or for meetings, but to do their basic work. [00:01:51] As more and more businesses are saying, Hey, why should I be paying for the software or hardware, et cetera. Let's just move it all to the cloud. And we're seeing now States and cities that are starting to lift some of these stay-at-home orders, but frankly, this increased level of employees working from home. [00:02:12] Is not going to disappear. Sure. It'll get a little smaller. Many businesses are going to be calling people back and they are going to be working from that office, but many people are in businesses that are going to continue that move over to the cloud. So what are the security challenges that come from a hybrid infrastructure? [00:02:35] Almost three-quarters of companies expect at least 5% or more of the former onsite employees to work from home on a permanent basis. That's not a lot, but 5% when you add it up over all of the small businesses, that is a lot because half of all employees in the country work for small businesses. And a quarter of businesses are planning on keeping at least 20% of their workers out of the office post-pandemic. [00:03:06] And this is according to a survey of chief financial officers by the, it's maybe you guys know Gartner right? Gartner group. They're research firm, so their numbers are usually considered gospel in the business world. With this remote work comes even more cloud usage, and that could be a problem for a lot of companies that have issues with the visibility into the security of the cloud. [00:03:33] Now. You might be as a business relying on maybe some permitter defenses or maybe some on-premise security software and appliances to help keep your systems and data safe. Now, most of the time, small businesses aren't using the right stuff. They're just using some equipment that they got from, you know, a random break-fix shop or heaven forbid at staples or where they ordered it from Amazon. [00:03:59] You can't, you just can't get the good stuff from any of those places. But that's not going to work anymore at all. When we're talking about remote workers cause people are in their homes and they're using cloud services that you just don't know the security level of, you might not know what the patch level is of windows of the software that's running on windows. [00:04:26] You might not know any of that stuff. Right. But we are going to see a major shift so. Let's talk about it a little bit here. We're just seeing, you know, massive, massive growth. I'm looking at these numbers in telecommuting. It was growing slowly before, but now many technology firms, particularly marketing companies, are relying almost exclusively on people working from home. [00:04:53] IBM had moved people to work from home and then found that experiment to be a failure and moved everybody back into the office. Now, that was back in 2017 they pulled them back in and made them work from an office in one of six cities. While IBM now has moved almost entirely to remote work and they've got 95% of its current workforce working outside of the company offices. [00:05:21] IBM, by the way, is a major player in the cloud in case you weren't aware, they were way more prepared for this problem than many companies. It com and infrastructure information security groups. Absolutely true. So coming out of this, we need to embrace the fact that we have to continually be ready for full. [00:05:43] Remote workforce. What is going to happen? And, and I'm, I'm on governors, the governor's task force here on education, on re-opening education. What are we going to do? And of course, I'm the security guy, the technology guy, actually one of the technology people on that task force. And we had a meeting this week and we were talking about it. [00:06:07] Okay, fine. So we've got the COVID-19 thing and it's eventually going to be a thing of the past. But thinking about the teachers that are 60, 65, 70 years old, what happens when there's another virus? What happens when the annual flu or curves. Are we going to be shutting down our offices again? Are we going to be shutting down our schools again? [00:06:32] Are we going to maybe try and do quarantines as we've always done in the past where we say, Hey, if you are sick. Or if you are vulnerable, you just stay home because this is happening more and more. We, we had SARS very, you know, that wasn't long ago. Right? That was another covert virus that we had. We had to MERS. [00:06:56] That was another COVID virus that we had. We've had a number of these things. I'm thinking about Ebola, which I don't think was a COVID virus. They're happening more and more. And as we have more and more people in the world, the likelihood of them occurring is going to be even greater. So if you are a business person, and then the case of where I'm on the governor's task force, looking at education, if, if we are a school, what are we going to do in the future? [00:07:30] And I really think we have to realize that we have to be able to have our businesses basically work remotely. So I want to encourage everybody to really keep that in mind as we're looking at this going forward. What can you do in order to make your business covert proof? Now, it isn't just the COVID-19 what happens if there's a fire in your building burns down. [00:08:00] What happens if there is a major lightning strike and it burns up all of your computers just zaps them. What's that all going to mean and what's going to happen with the next 12 months? Are we going to have another massive spike in the COVID virus or are you ready for that? We got to think about it. [00:08:21] The other side is the endpoint devices and we're seeing right now. Six and 10 remote workers using personal devices to do work, and almost all of these workers believe that the devices are secure. CrowdStrike had a look at this and said that people are naive. Six in 10 remote workers are using personal devices to do work and all. [00:08:48] Almost none of them. Are properly secured, and we've got attackers now focused on targeting the remote workers. They're going after VPN technology technologies, which is part of the reason I say don't use VPNs, right? It's where the people are and it's where we're getting it back. So be ca

Welcome!   For being locked down do to this Pandemic there is certainly a lot of technology in the news this week.  So lets get into it.  I will give you my take on a recent federal court ruling about the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and website terms of use policies. We will discuss the many risks that medical device manufacturers are introducing into hospitals, clinics, and patients. We have a couple of stories about Apple, first off they are ditching INTEL and designing their processors and why the fake news media is so eager to announce problems with their architecture even when it does not exist and much more. So sit back and listen in.  For more tech tips, news, and updates visit - CraigPeterson.com --- Automated Machine Generated Transcript: Craig Peterson: Hi everybody. Craig Peterson here another week with the Corona virus, I guess. Well, the latest coronavirus, right? This one is it called?  Corona, SARS two. Cause it's another version of the SARS virus. Hey Craig Peterson,  here on WGAN heard every Saturday right now from one till 3:00 PM and we talked about the latest in technology. [00:00:30] The things you need to know, things you can do. We kind of have a little bit of fun too. Sometimes we'll get into the real stuff that's serious and sometimes we just talk about some of the cool things and. Well, some things that I like to with the family and all of that sort of thing. And today, of course, is not an exception. [00:00:50] We've got, of course, these SBA loans, and you might've heard me bellyache about these because, of course, they're just not working. Uh, you know, I have a very small company and at the very least, I was supposed to get this little loan that every business that applied was supposed to get, and he supposed to get it within 72 hours.  Blah, blah, blah. From the SBA and to date I've gotten absolutely nothing and it's been weeks. And to top it off, I got an email from them a couple of weeks ago that was really ambiguous and saying that maybe I needed to provide some more information. We called them up to try and find out what's up. [00:01:32] Things just don't work there either. It just gets totally, totally messed up. So  for me  and some businesses obviously, you know, like big ones have gotten millions of dollars, including schools, universities, et cetera. And the little guys that really need the money, we just aren't getting anything. [00:01:55] Welcome to the club if you're one of them. If you're not, I'd love to hear from you. How did you make it work as a small business? Yeah, you can just email me@craigpeterson.com I would absolutely love to know. And then to top it all off, what happens this week? Of course, the SBAs loan system crashes as businesses are trying to apply for this stuff. [00:02:19] Maybe about another, what was it, 310 billion in emergency funds? It was was supposedly released on Monday or made available on Monday, and the portal course crashed and kept crashing all day long. The bankers who are trying to get onto the system to apply and behalf of the desperate clients couldn't get anywhere. [00:02:40] Very frustrating to them. Of course, no integration between the banking systems and the SBA. No integration, easy way for small businesses or even these big businesses that are pretending they're small businesses. No way for them to be able to get the information out there. And many of them are venting online on social media against the SBA, the small business administration that's running the program. [00:03:06] Now I've got to give them a bit of a break because I heard a statistic this week too, that the SBA has processed the more of these loan applications in the last, what is it, a month than they have in the last 15 years, which is absolutely incredible. [00:03:26] American bankers association is on Twitter saying they're deeply frustrated at their ability to access the SBA system. America's banks can help struggling businesses, you know? When did I say at the beginning of all of this. Based on the amount of money they were talking about and assuming that there were a hundred million businesses. I mean, families, excuse me, a hundred million families in the United States. Somebody just do a little quick math here. 100, one, two, three, one, two, three that's a hundred million. Then times 60, one, two, three $60,000 dollars per family, lets see three, three, one, two, three, $6 trillion, which was the estimated cost of the actual first bailout. [00:04:14] You know, you heard 2 trillion and 3 trillion. The actual bottom line was actually 6 trillion. So what we're really, what we're really talking about here is the ability. For the federal government to have given every family in the country $60,000 can you imagine that? What would that do to the economy? [00:04:37] Giving every family in the country $60,000 dollars. Now remember too, that you are on the hook as a family for $60,000 that were given to all kinds of businesses that probably didn't need the money in the first place. And businesses that were, you know, a friend of this Congress critter, that Congress critter. You saw what Nancy Pelosi snuck into the bills. [00:05:03] The Republicans kept saying, they're trying to keep this clean. Let's just get this to small businesses. And of course, the way they set it up, the way they did it just didn't work either.  Man is this is just me. Absolutely. Is it just me? Um. Yeah, the program first went in April 3rd it, and it's supposed to help the neediest businesses, these really small businesses, hair salons, coffee shops, dry cleaners, and businesses like mine. [00:05:31] And of course, it just didn't happen. Its Beyond frustration here for me and for pretty much everybody else. So these truly tiny businesses like mine are gone. They really, most of them are gone. I've seen estimates this week saying that it was probably in the order of 25% of them will never be back. And I was talking with one of my daughters this week and a restaurant in our neighborhood that has been here for almost ever. [00:06:06] A very old business. Uh, that restaurant, the building is haunted. It has been around for a hundred plus years, maybe 200 years. I'm not sure. Very, very old buildings. It's been a Tavern, et cetera, over the years. And he said, there's no way he's reopening. He just can't reopen. You know, he's been struggling for years. [00:06:28] It's a tough business to be in any ways, in the restaurant business, and I've seen stats on restaurants saying that we could see a 50% decrease in the number of restaurants. Number of restaurants, just an entirely here, 50% I don't know what the numbers are going to be. Um, Dallas. Here I, there's an article from, uh, the Dallas eater saying that Dallas restaurants opened in our May 1st is a bad idea. [00:07:00] Market watch has a thing about this as well. My state is reopening businesses, including restaurants and movie theaters. Am I selfish if I go?Many U S restaurants say PPP loans don't meet their needs. Yeah, no kidding. Right? Even if you get the money. You're supposed to spend three quarters of it on payroll and you've already laid off your people, how are you going to get them back? [00:07:23] Because they're making more money. As laid off people on unemployment insurance, and they would be, if you hired them back. So they're not going to reopen, and then you got to consider, well, okay, payroll was this much, but they were also getting tips which subsidized it because restaurant workers, many of them of course, making just to two or three bucks an hour. [00:07:46] This is a disaster. It is an absolute disaster. I don't know how many people are going to end up dead because of the consequences of what we did to try and slow down the Corona virus. And I'm glad we're able to slow it down. I don't know. Ultimately if flattening the curve is going to help, because you remember the whole idea behind flattening the curve was we did not want to overwhelm our medical system. [00:08:17] We didn't want the hospitals to be overwhelmed. Because we wanted the hospitals to be able to treat people that had this Corona virus. And they certainly were able to, we're seeing hospitals now, especially small rural hospitals closing down. Some of them may never open their doors again and they're not closing down because they were too busy. [00:08:37] They're closing down because it didn't have enough income because they weren't doing elective surgery. A their beds weren't even close to being full with Covid patients. Some of them only had a couple of Covid patients in them. So what, what , you know, um, and we've already had people who have committed suicide. [00:08:56] I'm aware of one, personally because of losing their job and now they had to pay the mortgage. They had to pay all of their other bills. They didn't have the money. The government was dragging their feet on it. And then the money that the government's been spending that did not end up in our hands, that money now  is not only money we have to pay back, but it's going to drive up inflation. And what's that going to mean? [00:09:21] Well, It could mean, well, the antidote for inflation from a typical economic standpoint is well you raise interest rates. Do you remember raised interest rates in the eighties early eighties? I had friends who lost homes because the only loan they could get on their home was a a variable interest rate loan. And so they had one of these variable interest rate loans and the interest rate got up into the twenties. I think I remember it being like 22-23% there it there in the early eighties. And so their monthly payments. Just went up. Doubled, tripled, quadrupled some people, and they couldn't afford to keep their home, so they lost their down payments on the houses. [00:10:05] And people are complaining right now that they cannot get a loan on their home because they don't have enough of a down payment. So the banks are getting free money. From us., Ultimately, right? Or from the treasury. So the banks are getting free money and some of these banks now we're looking for 20% down, again, which is what I had to do years ago when I bought my home. [00:10:27] I never only ever bought one home. So man, things are going to be a mess. They are going to be a very, very big mess. Um. We'll see.  In the Financial times, many U S restaurant's highly likely to return the small business aid. I was kind of interested in article denied by insurance companies. LA restaurants are waging a high stakes battle in court now because they had coverage. [00:10:56] It was supposed to cover this stuff and did it? No. Okay. Um. The many privately owned restaurants are saying the Paycheck protection program fails to meet their needs. Oh my goodness gracious. Um. This is, it's very ill suited for their industry from my industry, for most industries. [00:11:19] Basically, if you're a big enough business that you have a full time HR department, an accounting department, you probably could get the paycheck protection program. If you're a small business like me. And things are probably not so good for you, so, huh, man. Anyway, stick around. We'll get into the tech. I promise you're listening to Craig Peterson here on WGAN stick around because we'll be right back. [00:11:55] It kind of sounds like the national restaurant association show here with Craig Peterson, on WGAN. And I was thinking about my, uh, my favorite local restaurant. I love Mexican food. I have ever since I lived in Californ-i-a all of those years ago, out on the left coast. My wife, in fact, the native born Californian, and it, uh, it, I'm, I'm looking at them saying, how are they surviving. [00:12:24] Cause we would go over there once a week at least, you know, taco Tuesday type thing and enjoy ourselves. Have a nice little family outing. I haven't spent a dime there in six, eight weeks. I don't know how long it's been. It's been a very, very long time, so I just don't know. Anyways, let's get in. Let's get into the, um. [00:12:45] The stories for today, and we're going to talk about something that I think is really, really important. Uh, and of course, what else should we talk about? Right? But, uh, we've got, yeah, that was a drum roll. We've got an interesting problem right now. There is a law on the books right now that are inplace and has been in place for about 30 years, and it has to do with the definition of hacking. What is hacking, and it made sense about 30 years ago. [00:13:22] Nowadays, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Because we've got these terms on websites. So for instance. We'd talked about two months ago about a company that was scraping all of the information they could find about us, including our, our pictures, our video, our voices. But primarily they were after our pictures and from every site they could get their hands on from any site whether or not they were violating the site's terms of service. And some of these sites have sued them, et cetera. They've been hacked, and I guess that's what happens when you become a big target. But where should it be going? What should we be doing? We've got a problem right now, and there's a lawsuit that's been initiated by a group of academics and journalists, and of course the ACLU is behind it. [00:14:18] And you know, most of the time I look at what the ACLU is doing and wonder what it is they're up to. In this case, I think they might actually be doing something right. Isn't that nice for a change. They're arguing. That having these investigations against racial discrimination in online job markets by creating fake accounts for fake employers and job seekers. [00:14:49] Is that something that should be done? Right? Leading job sites out there in terms of service that prohibits that, right? So users of these sites are prohibited from supplying fake information, and the researchers are worried that the research could expose them to criminal liability. Because they're posting these things on the site and then they're trying to analyze all things being equal. [00:15:14] Was this a case of racial discrimination? So in 2016, they sued the federal government, and they're asking for whether a decision based on what they're saying is the First Amendment that you could in fact do almost anything online and get away with it. Now, I, for instance, you know, I have been using fake information on websites for a very long time, so when I go to authenticate myself, you know, they'll ask, what street were you born on? What's your mother's maiden name? I always make stuff up for that and I record it. So that later on I can always dig it up because you know someone can go online, they can become your bestest to Facebook friend. They can look at LinkedIn, find out about you and your history. And the younger kids these days have all of the information online and will for their entire lives. [00:16:17] So I have always used different email addresses, different versions of my email address, completely different names made up everything. Now obviously. When it comes to an official thing, like a bank account or government stuff, I'm not lying about anything except for my authenticity to be able to log into the site. [00:16:42] So I'll give my correct social security number, et cetera, et cetera, when it is required, because obviously would be a violation of a law, but they're saying. That under this federal law that's out there, the computer fraud and abuse act, it's been around for 30 years. Would it be illegal to create these accounts where we're just trying to figure out, are these people discriminating. So there is a federal judge by the name of John Bates who ruled on Friday a week ago, that the plaintiff's proposed research would not violate the CFAA, the computer fraud and abuse act provisions at all. And he said that somebody violates it when they bypass an access restriction, like a password, but someone who logs into a website with a valid password does not become a hacker simply by doing something prohibited by a web site, terms of service. [00:17:45] So that I actually, I think was a good ruling here. Now from the ruling itself, criminal is criminalizing terms of service violations, risks, turning each website into its own criminal jurisdiction and each webmaster into its own legislature. Yay. At last. Right now, unfortunately, courts are disagreeing about how to interpret this. [00:18:12] If this law is around forever. In Oh nine the California federal judge, right? What else? Ninth circus rejected a CFAA prosecution against a woman who contributed to a, myspace hoax that led to the suicide of a 13 year old by the name of Megan Meyer. And in that, the prosecutors argued that they had violated my spaces, terms of service. [00:18:40] In 2014 the night circus, uh, rejected another prosecution based on terms of service violation. So obviously I'm in favor of this. They're kind of moving in the right direction. We've got the seventh circus, uh, ruled that an employee had violated the anti hacking law when after quitting his job, he wiped an employer owned laptop that contained information that was valuable to his employer. [00:19:08] As well as the data could have been revealed misconduct by this person. So I think most of the way we're talking about the courts coming down the right direction here, but, uh, I, I'm very glad to see this because you know, that I. Protect site against hackers and hacking, not just websites, but businesses, right. [00:19:30] Including a real enterprise is real big businesses and I've done that for years. Usually the smaller divisions, because even the public companies have their own it staff and you know, they hold it all very close to the chest. It's in tasks. I don't trust anyone else. Don't, don't go with that person. Don't do what they say. [00:19:50] Yeah. Right. Which is, or I kind of get it cause I'd probably be saying the same thing, right. Cause I know what I'm doing, but in many cases they're just trying to protect their jobs. So when I am. Doing this. One of the things we do is have a honeypot set up. So what happens is the bad guys get onto a network and they started attacking. [00:20:13] They're immediately going to get into the little honeypot and the honeypot looks like an unpatched system. Might be a Linux system. Usually it is, or it might be a windows system, and so they start hacking away at it. And that immediately just sets off a trip wire, right? Cause I know, wait a minute, wait a minute. [00:20:33] Somebody's breaking into this system. So we monitor pretty closely. We know what's happening on it. I basically, all of the time, and there were interpretations of that law that would say that what I was doing was illegal. It was part of security research, even going on to the dark web and downloading some of these databases of hacked accounts. [00:20:55] Passwords, usernames, emails, et cetera. Even going online, looking for my client's information on the dark web could be considered to be illegal, so we've got to update these laws. There's a whole lot more, obviously, that we have to update, but I'm glad to see some of the stuff coming down on the right side. [00:21:15] Hey, we've heard about companies moving back to the U S now because of the Ruan virus and other things China's been doing. To our U S corporations for years. Uh, did you know Apple is doing something completely differently to this year that will potentially get them out of China, at least for the most part, stick around. [00:21:38] We'll be right back. This is Craig Peterson here on w G a N and online@craigpeterson.com. [00:21:54] Hey, welcome back. Craig. Peter sawn here. Listen to me on w. G. A. N I'm heard every Saturday from one till 3:00 PM and on Wednesdays I'm on with Matt during the morning drive time. You can pick me up at about seven 34 or every Wednesday morning as we talk about the latest in the news of technology. Hey, you might've heard of Fox con they are a big company based in China. [00:22:26] They have offices while manufacturing plants, frankly, all over the world. They've got factories in Thailand, Malaysia, Czech Republic, South Korea, Singapore, and the Philippines. They also were talking about opening up some plants in Wisconsin. Apparently those never actually opened, but they are. Busy worldwide. [00:22:49] And Fox con is Apple's longest running partner in building I-phones and some of the other devices that China makes. I mean, that Apple makes or sells, right, because remember who makes this stuff anymore? Well, Apple hasn't been making its newest IMAX or not IMAX. I shouldn't say a Mac pros. Yeah. In the United States. [00:23:14] Again, not that itself, it's a contracted manufacturing company, but the Mac pro, the one that came on 2013 as well as the new Mac pro are entirely made in the United States. Now, when we're looking at things like the iPhone and some of these other devices, yeah, they are certainly manufactured by Foxconn in China. [00:23:38] In mostly in at Shenzhen China location, but in fact, key iPhone components, according to Tim cook, are manufactured in the United States and then shipped abroad. And then the devices are assembled by Fox con, and then there's another company called Pegatron in China. Bottom line. What they are doing and what Apple is doing is protecting its intellectual property. [00:24:08] And we've heard of this before, haven't we? Where companies are in China, China requires them to give all of their intellectual property to their Chinese quote unquote. Partner, right? And Chinese national has to have at least a 50% ownership in it. It's real problem all the way around, and when we're looking at what's happening with the iPhone in the manufacturing in China, things are going to be changing. [00:24:37] In fact, they're going to be changing for a bunch of Apple's devices, including some of their new Mac books. If you've ever gotten into some of the hardware details inside of. It's a Mac books and, and in fact, they're Mac computers. Over the years, Apple has gone through a few different CPS. They were using the power CPU while before that they were using the murderer, Motorola, the 68,000 based CPS and a very, just an amazing CPU. [00:25:07] I remember at the time doing some operant system ports to it. It was just amazing. And then they went to Intel and, um. After. I'm not Intel, I mean, power PC, which was an IBM design. Frankly, power chips are the most amazing chips there are. Uh, from a cost perspective and performance. It's just, they are absolutely amazing, but they run hot and they use a lot of electricity, which is why you don't want them in a lab. [00:25:39] Top and Apple was not, or excuse me, IBM was not able to deliver to Apple chips that would meet their power requirements and performance requirements. So Apple said, okay, well we're going to switch to Intel because Intel promised that they would be able to provide the faster chips and they run cooler, so they'd be better for laptops and things, and they started using Intel. [00:26:04] And Intel worked out okay. Right now, by the way, uh, Intel is losing the performance war to AMD advanced micro devices. So that's kind of cool to hear those, you know, those things kind of shift back and forth every once in a while. But Intel has been unable to meet Apple's delivery requirements, and Apple's have been pretty tough over the years. [00:26:25] Look at what Johnny Ives has done with some of the designs, but Apple says, Hey, listen, we need a. Perf performance increase in the processor and we want to choose less juice and give off less heat. Well, those things are all difficult to do for a microprocessor manufacturer. So what Apple decided they would do is they went to an open source CPU design and started with that base and went on from there to have some just absolutely amazing chip designs. [00:26:58] Now I, I love some of these designs and they're showing up. But in all of our I-phones, if you have an iPhone or an iPad, you're using one of Apple's chips. Uh, the age 12, I think is the latest one. I'm trying to remember, uh, the version numbers, but, but they're made by Apple quote, unquote. In the U S for the most part, certainly not in China, and they are very efficient from a performance standpoint. [00:27:27] They're very fast. So they've been doing a very good job with these. Now, I, I talked to a couple of weeks ago about how much an iPhone would cost if it was made in America, and I saw another study that came out last week, so I had to bring this one up because the other one. Wasn't that clear. They figured it would only be a hundred $200 more. [00:27:48] So Wes, what RAs? Why Lara? This is from fi.org. You'll find this article online, uh, which is the foundation for economic education. And this is an article by Mark Perry. He's saying that an iPhone that today costs about a thousand dollars if it were made entirely in the United States, if it even could be, because believe it or not, the United States has fallen behind. [00:28:21] In manufacturing technologies because we have blood, China get ahead of us. We gave them all this technology to start with. I've complained about that before too, and now they are ahead of us, so we don't even have the ability to manufacture these things here in the U S right now, we not only have to ramp pump, but we'd have to develop some new technologies and. [00:28:45] That thousand dollar iPhone that is assembled in China that has some component parts made in the United States would push the price of an iPhone components from about 190 $190 that's what it costs right now. Estimated, right? Apple doesn't release these numbers, but estimated to cost $190 right now, it would be about $600 if it were. [00:29:12] Made in the us. So if the materials alone are costing better than triple what it would cost in China, we could probably see a $2,000 iPhone. Now, do you remember that the U S is only bringing in 6% of the profits from iPhone sales? Two out of three iPhone purchasers are not based in the United States. [00:29:38] Now, that's a huge change from years ago when most of Apple's customers are in the U S but right now with the whole. A wound virus has been spreading in China. The app, the iPhone sales are way down, and that's probably also true of other countries as well. So this is going to be an interesting little battle as we go ahead. [00:30:00] But here's the really big news as far as I'm concerned, and that is. That Apple is going to start making the Mac book using their chip sets. So like these eight, 12, and other processors I've been talking about, they've got the, uh, a fourteens are the new ones that are coming out. I think I got that model number right. [00:30:27] But these are 12 core chips and they are actually. Two chip sets. There's uh, that, that are in one package. It's just amazing what they're doing, but some lower powered ones for doing things that don't need a lot of CPU power and some higher powered ones. And they're going to be coming out in the new iPhones and the new iPad, but they are also going to be coming out in the new Mac books now that. [00:31:01] Is amazing. 12 core CPU is aided by a graphics processor that is probably going to have its own collection of cores. This is amazing. If you look at the current iPad pro tablets that are using the eight 12 X and Z chips, we're talking about an Apple iPad pro outperforming. 90% of recent PC laptops, so this could be amazing. [00:31:31] Apple's moving this, some of this back to the U S and they're getting Intel out of the way, and I think that's a good thing, frankly, for Apple. But listening to Craig, Peter sauna, WGAN stick around. We'll be right back. [00:31:50] Hello everybody. Welcome back. Craig. Peter Assan here on w G a N having a good time today. Hopefully you guys are as well, whether you are kind of locked up in the home maybe or any central person like you, me and your, you're out and about and maybe taking a little time on Saturday too. Work in the yard. [00:32:12] I appreciate you all being with us today. I have just absolutely amazed here what Apple is doing and congratulations to them now once get into our hospitals cause they've been in the news a lot lately. You know, we've got people. Who will have the Woodlawn virus, right? Who have the symptoms of this coven 19, which is very bad. [00:32:39] And, uh, it's particularly bad for older people. We have seen now covert 19, the average of the average. Age of someone who died, what state was, it was like 82 I can't remember if that was a single state or if that was a Countrywide, but that is frankly, absolutely amazing. That means it is killing older people, but we're also seeing other symptoms. [00:33:07] Now we have, people are getting blood clots. You heard about that athlete that had to have a leg amputated. Again, it's absolutely amazing here. Uh,  hospitals right now, according to the New York times, this is from Wednesday this week saying that airborne coronaviruses detected and woo Han hospitals right now. [00:33:29] That is not good. Um. It's man. I'm just going through these articles. It just, it just, I shake my head, but we're starting to see some electric surgeries coming back to hospitals. Uh, most of these field hospitals that were set up or shut down. Down, they were largely unused and right here, according to the Bangor daily news on Wednesday, we've got two bankrupt main hospitals warn they could close in June if they don't receive stimulus funds and president and Trump has announced that, yes, indeed, our hospitals are going to get stimulus funds. [00:34:08] But if you heard me at the top of the hour, you heard. You heard me talk about how, uh, you know, we were promised funds too, and we just haven't gotten any. So it's, this is going to be a very, very big problem for us all. Uh, and when we're talking about hospitals, there's one other angle or that people just aren't paying attention to right now. [00:34:30] You know, w we talked about the ventilators. And there w there just weren't gonna be enough. Right. And here in Maine and all over the country, there were more ventilators than were needed. And that's true. New York as well. And come to find out, of course they sold 500 ventilators rather than maintain them. [00:34:52] And instead of ordering more ventilators, what did the government do there in New York? While they just commissioned a plan as to how they were going to ration them, who got. To die, right? That's socialized medicine for you. If I ever heard the definition of it, a total death panel, but the good news is we didn't need all of those, but we've got the internet of things and we've talked about it and I've talked about it in my tree trainings and we go into it in some depth. [00:35:21] In my courses, but the so called internet of things also extends to our hospitals. It's the internet of medical things, and these devices are going online. Hospitals and medical facilities are really starting to stare this in the phase. And I mentioned when I was on with Matt Gagnan on Wednesday morning this week, that there is a problem been around for a long time. [00:35:50] I have my first, in fact, a hospital chain as a client was 25 years ago. Maybe. And we were trying to clean things up for them, fix them, network stuff, put some security stuff in place. And what did we find? Well, those those machines, those hospitals, plus all of the clinics that were affiliated with the hospital had old hardware that they just weren't taking care of. [00:36:18] These devices that are controlling the systems in the hospitals. Everything from the air ventilation systems through. All of the medical equipment. Think about all of this stuff right from the, the drip machines, the Ivy machines, the ventilators, our the MRE machines, the x-ray machines. Some of these devices are running very outdated operating system. [00:36:46] Some of them are still running windows 95. Windows XP, windows seven none of which are currently getting patches or updates, and many of them were never intended to go on line at all. Think about that. When, when they were designed the windows 95 and XP. They weren't thinking about these things being hooked up to the internet or even other networks really. [00:37:13] They were just kind of standalone systems that sat in a corner and then the programmer said, Hey, listen, we can add, there's really cool feature. We'll tie them together. And so doctors can look at x-rays remotely. And so a system that was never designed with network security in mind all of a sudden had a network connection all of a sudden was being used online on a network. [00:37:35] In a hospital that had never set it up properly in the first place. I really wish more of these medical centers in the hospitals would call me because they need so much help, and many of them don't even realize it. They, these things have no cybersecurity protection whatsoever, and then the hospital networks are often not even segmented. [00:38:01] That's something I teach home users to do. So that's allowing attackers to enter anywhere in the hospital and move around so they can get to the billing. They can get to all of these machines there. Even being researchers that are saying they have seen hackers inside cardiac pacemaker machines. Think about that one for a little bit. [00:38:28] How about if it gets onto one of these machines that's running on an older version of windows or even a brand new one that hasn't been patched up and they get onto it to a hacker, it may just look like, Hey, this is just another windows 10 machine. I'm going to use it for Bitcoin mining. I'm going to use it for spreading ransomware around. [00:38:48] You think that might be a problem? So it is now Bitcoin mining instead of watching your cardiac rhythm. Right? And so when I was going to overheat, it's gonna use up all of the systems, resources. It's going to spread ransomware throughout the hospital. We've seen that again and again and again and again, and we've seen that again and again in , even in our state, New Hampshire has had this as well. [00:39:17] I talked to and helped a school district that had been nailed by ransomware and they decided they were just pay the ransom, which by the way. Tells the ransom Merz, Hey listen, let's hack them again and put another ransom on. Cause we know they pay the ransom right. So there's third problem the hospitals are having is with all of this vulnerable equipment. [00:39:40] They're not replacing them. They're not upgrading, and they're not patching them. And not enough of this equipment has been recalled by the manufacturers because the manufacturers have gone on to a newer model, Hey, listen, uh, no need to update that machine or buy a new one for only $50,000. So where are the manufacturers spending their time? [00:40:03] Where are they focusing their efforts? Well, obviously they're focusing their efforts on getting them to buy a new machine to design these new machines. It is a very, very big, big deal. Now, another one of the big attacks, most common, I mentioned ransomware when it comes to the intranet of medical devices, but. [00:40:26] The other big one is a distributed denial of service attack. Cause you remember these devices in the hospital are performing critical. Things, right? Very critical functions that, as I said, there might be running a cardiac machine on MRI. They might just be keeping track of doctor's notes, all of which are critical. [00:40:49] So if a nation state specifically targets an IV pump and changes the dose of medication, what do you think will happen? It certainly could happen, but the more basic thread is. These devices getting a denial of service attack. So the whole network at the hospital becomes overloaded and now nothing works at the hospital. [00:41:18] So there's, there are just the basic threats that aren't being taken care of. Ransomware, phishing emails, and these attacks are targeting the weakest and the oldest operating systems that are typically running on these devices and hospitals are top targets. Now, one of the big hacking groups out there that has ransomware all over the world said, Hey, listen, in this time of covert 19. [00:41:44] We are not going to be attacking the hospitals because it just isn't fair. And in fact, they have been attacking hospitals. They are the top targets still for ransomware because they're very vulnerable and they pay. And that's why, what was it, five years ago? Seven years ago? I designed a system just to, it's a small computer. [00:42:09] Based on a little in Intel Adam chip that sits in front of these devices for manufacturers, for controlling valves for more critical equipment. It just sits there. And it is a specialized firewall for that piece of equipment. So this is a problem. It's a very, very big problem in hospitals, frankly, are afraid to do anything because they're afraid they're going to get sued. [00:42:37] Their insurance companies are sitting there saying, Oh yeah, yeah, well, if you're going to do an upgrade, the equipment might not work. Properly and you might get sued. So we're going to increase the fees for our, for our services, for our premiums. Premiums are going to go up. Okay. So they just don't want to do anything. [00:42:58] And then you got the FDA right? Man, does this story ever end? And, uh, FDA is saying, Hey, listen guys, we're okay with you doing patches, the hospitals afraid of recertifying. And I love this quote here. Uh, it says it's a willful lie on the part of some stakeholders in the system that you can't update medical devices. [00:43:25] Why do you think that. W why do they think that? Well, bottom line is that. These device manufacturers are telling them, you can't update because your insurance premiums are going to get too high. The FDA says it'll have to be read, type accepted for use, et cetera, et cetera. But I want to let you know if you work for the medical community here at any level, the FDA. [00:43:54] Has post-market guidance that they issued in 2016 and in that, the FDA explained that while federal regulations require manufacturers to report certain actions, the majority of the actions taken by manufacturers to address cyber security vulnerabilities and exploits are generally not considered to be a type of device enhancement for which the FDA. [00:44:21] It does not require advanced notification or reporting. So some good news there, we'll let the hospitals know. If you're involved with this industry, guys, pull up your socks. Hire security specialist. Some of them have been doing it for awhile. That can really help you out because there's so much to know. [00:44:40] Hey, you've been listening to Craig Peterson and WGAN and online@craigpeterson.com stick around. [00:44:51] Hello everybody. Greg Peters song here. We of course are on every Saturday from a one until three and I'm on with Matt Gagnan as well on Wednesday mornings during drive time at about seven 34. I've been in the tech business now for many decades, and then the security business helping businesses secure their internet connections. [00:45:16] Really since 91 and I have quite a backstory, and one of these days we'll have to have to share it with you, but I'm a business guy and this whole security thing, you know, back in the day. I did not really understand security, probably like a lot of you guys and uh, but I was very, very technical. I had helped to implement a number of the protocols that are used on the internet and that was a big win for me because I was able to take what I knew, dig into it. [00:45:47] It took me a few days to figure out what had happened and then lock things down and I was kind of years behind at that time. Point because the, what I got, which was called the Morris worm, had actually been known for a few years before it hit me. And that was kind of a shame. So, you know, back then, of course you didn't have Google. [00:46:09] AltaVista wasn't around yet. None of this stuff was out there. We were using a gopher search engines, right. Or Veronica, Archie, Jughead back in the day, and trying to figure it out was really a bit of a chore. Once I figured it out, it was easy enough to fix, but I almost lost my business over that and that was a very scary occasion for me. [00:46:29] So I have really kind of dug into it, and I've been helping out a lot of businesses here over the years to help be secure, and I'm doing the same thing as well. For individuals. And that's what this show's all about, right? We're trying to help you guys out with that. Talk about some latest cool technology. [00:46:48] And, uh, I was so successful in being able to help outfit, I was even drafted by the FBI's InfraGuard program and trained, I've trained thousands of businesses literally here across the nation on what. To do in order to keep safe, and I continue to do that with free webinars, courses, memberships, all that sort of stuff. [00:47:10] Anyhow, if you miss the first hour today, I talked about a change here in the way criminal hacking is being looked at by our courts, and that's. Very good things about time. They changed that Apple is going to be selling max with its own processor starting in 2021. Say goodbye to Intel, and I would add to that. [00:47:34] Good. Riddens uh, also the internet of medical things. You've heard me, if you've been listening to me. Uh, you've heard me talk a little bit about the internet of things. Well, there's something called the internet of medical things as well, and that is frankly very, very scary. So that's how we ended up last hour. [00:47:56] And I want to invite everybody to go online. Go to Craig peterson.com you will see all of the articles I talk about today with all of the background. You can listen to my podcasts, you can watch my videos every once in a while. I even have some trainings. Up there, but if you sign up, you can get my weekly newsletter, which does contain all of that stuff. [00:48:19] Craig, Peter, sawn.com/subscribe so you can just get out your phone. It'll work on your phone. It'll work on your desktop, on your laptop. Craig Peterson. Now I saved Craig Peterson because it's an O. N it's not an E. N, it's N. O. N. Alright, so it's Craig, CRA, I G just like you'd expect Peter sohn.com/subscribe and I do not. [00:48:46] I do not pass to you. In fact, when I have something that I am launching, you know, a new, a new course, a new product, whatever it is, I will give you the option to opt out of that. If you're not interested in it, and I, I, you know, just click right there and you'll still get my weekly newsletter. But you won't hear anything more about that particular promotion that's going on at the time. [00:49:09] So I'm not like some of these marketers that just slam you every day. I don't even consider myself a marketer. Right? I'm a tech guy that happens to have something to sell, not quite the same thing. Anyhow. Um. Yeah, w and the plenty of free stuff. A lot of people just use the free stuff and that's all they need. [00:49:30] We have a report that's been in the media that I want to talk about right now, and this is a report about this so-called zero day exploit against iOS. Now, what is zero day exploit? Basically. Uh, what we're talking about when we say zero day means, uh, it's kind of like patient zero, who was the first person to get the Corona virus as an idea, right? [00:49:57] That's patient zero zero day here. When we're talking about some of these hacks means no one has seen this particular hack before, at least no one was aware of it. Now, sometimes the government agencies. Of our government and other foreign governments, we'll find something out. Of course they won't. Uh, they won't tell us about it. [00:50:20] Right. They'll just kind of use it. That has actually changed under the Trump administration. President Trump has been adamant that they share this information. I'm sure that keeping a couple of things back, but the NSA even has been sharing information about exploits that are going on. So we're funded about more and more of them, but in this case, there is supposedly an exploit that's out there in the wild. [00:50:46] And then the wild means it is being used. It has been seen out there. And this particular exploit is supposed to be used just by sending out a specially crafted, uh, email. Okay. And I'm supposedly, I saw another article that was saying, Oh, it's especially triggered SMS, a text message or message message or something. [00:51:11] So there's a San Francisco based security firm named Zach ops, and they said on Wednesday that attackers a dues the zero day exploit against at least six targets over a span of at least two years. Well. Now that's being disputed because Apple is certainly acknowledging that there is a flaw in the mail app, but it is a bug that causes the app to crash. [00:51:39] It does not give the bad guys access to anything. Basically. So the bad guys, certainly, yeah. They could crash your mail app and it's just going to restart automatically, or are you going to click it and it'll re restart right on your iOS device. But in this case, what we're talking about is something that's really a whole lot different, a whole lot worse, or is it frankly, right? [00:52:04] If it's not giving them access to your data. Is it really worse because it can't take full control of your iPhone, unlike what some of the media outlets were talking about. So Apple had declined to comment on the report, but they came out and they said that the bug posed a threat to iPhone and iPad users and there had not been any ax exploit at. [00:52:29] All in the statement they said, Apple takes all reports and security threats seriously, thoroughly investigated. Researchers report based on the information provided have concluded these issues do not pose an immediate risk to our users, and they go on to say that they found these issues in mail that. [00:52:47] Cannot bypass the iPhone and iPad security protections and no evidence that they've been used against customers. Now Apple's really good too about trying to track what is happening on phones. You might have noticed if you go in complaining about a problem with your phone and you go into the. Oh store. [00:53:04] They can look at logs on your phone to see if the app has been crashing, et cetera. So yes, indeed, they can check this out and take care of it. There have been a number of independent researchers that have also questioned the conclusion that zinc ops came to, and I think this is good. You know, you've got to be out there. [00:53:26] You've got to be talking about these things. Apple did respond. I like the fact that it was all public here. And that people were able to look at it and kind of figure out what was going on. Cause there have been exploits. We know that the WhatsApp app has been nailed a few times and I think part of the reason for that is WhatsApp is supposed to be secure. [00:53:47] Well, how secure is it. Really, and so they, the bad guys are constantly kind of going after it, trying to prove that it's just not secure at all. But really they identified a crash report. They found a way to reproduce the crashes and some circumstantial evidence. Told them that may be this was being used for malicious purpose purchase purposes. [00:54:11] Okay. Um, so, uh, anyways, that's where that stands. So what to do, obviously keep your software up to date. Apple is very good, unlike again, in this month. Microsoft's updates ended up causing serious problems. For some people. Apple's updates rarely cause those types of problems, and when we're talking about iOS, they just don't get any easier. [00:54:39] You can apply them very, very simply. In fact, they will usually, if you have automatic updates turned on on your iPhone or iPad at night, while it's sitting there on the charger, it's going to go ahead and update itself, upgrade itself, and then the next morning, Qatar, you've got the whole new operating system you had to do. [00:54:57] Absolutely nothing, which is, man, that is my idea of an easy time, and you've heard me before, I'm sure say don't use Android and people just, I ignored, I don't understand why. Right? Some of these people, like Danny, for instance, I'm thinking of, he follows. Everything I say to the T and it has saved him again and again. [00:55:22] In his small business, he has a franchise restaurant and you know, Oh, we'll see how the restaurant business does, but he's doing okay right now, but he still uses an Android phone and I don't get it. You know, I, I'm not really fond of. Any of these big companies, politics, you name the company, the politics are probably bad nowadays. [00:55:44] You know, it used to be assumed that, Oh, big corporations, they were big, they were evil, they were nasty. And if you notice the Democrats, now they're not talking about the evil millionaires. They're talking about the evil billionaires, because of course they're millionaires, right? To all of them, Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, the senators out there in California, Feinstein and others. [00:56:06] But, um. You know, the these big companies, so many of them are so left-leaning. It drives me crazy, so I get it. If you don't want to use Apple stuff because you don't agree politically with Apple, I think that's an okay reason. But reality sets in. And you just can't continue to use Android. You really can't. [00:56:27] And if you can get off of windows, you should do that as soon as you possibly can. Anyhow, that's just my opinion. So stick around. When we come back, we've got more to talk about. Of course, we're going to get into a very kind of an interesting problem over at Amazon. You're listening to Craig Peters on a w G a N stick around. [00:56:50] We'll be right back. [00:56:55] Hey, welcome back everybody. Craig Peterson here on WGAN. You can hear me, of course. Every Saturday from one til three. You also can listen to me on Wednesday morning. Yes, I'm on with Matt Gagnon. Did you know there was a morning show. Yeah. Drive time. So I'm on with Matt every Wednesday at about seven 34 for a few minutes to talk about the latest in technology news. [00:57:23] And of course we get to spend a couple hours talking about this in more detail on Saturday. Well, we just talked about this iOS zero day bug, and what does that mean to you? Doesn't look like it's totally legit. Big, big problem with our medical devices and hospitals and otherwise they are still running windows 95 X P if you can believe that 2007, none of which are supported anymore. [00:57:55] And, uh, you also went into what. Uh, what really has been put in place out there to allow them to do upgrades and updates, but there's so much obfuscation. It's crazy. And then courts violating a site's terms of service is not criminal hacking. So if you missed any of that, you can find it online. You can just go to Craig peterson.com/iheart I also post this whole show as one podcast that you can find on your favorite podcast platform, whatever that might be. [00:58:31] By just searching for Craig Peterson. Or the easy way is go to Craig peterson.com/itunes or if you're like, hi heart, you can go Craig peterson.com/iheart or Craig peterson.com/soundcloud et cetera, et cetera, okay? But it's all out there and you can get the whole show, all kinds of. Put together for you, which I think makes some sense. [00:58:57] Amazon is the 8,000 pound gorilla out there. They have been just really taking over the online retail space in a very, very big way. In fact, the Amazon counts for about one third of all. US-based internet retail sales isn't that huge? Can you imagine having that kind of market share? One third of all of it, but it didn't get there entirely on its own in case you're not aware of it. [00:59:31] Amazon has about half of their items being sold by small businesses, by third parties, and you might've noticed that on label sometimes where the third party, uh, will. Ship has something to you directly, and yeah, it looks like an Amazon box and me having an Amazon tape on it. But in reality, what we're seeing is a return address that might not be Amazons. [00:59:57] Well, these typically are smaller vendors, so think of that for a minute. We've got about a third of all retail sales going through Amazon and about half of those coming from small vendors. That's a very, very big deal. And with the businesses the way they are today, you might want to consider. Should you be selling online? [01:00:24] A lot of companies abandoned eBay because of their pricing strategies and they moved over to Amazon and it's been okay for them over there. But I want to tell you about the problem that's happening right now at Amazon. And this is something I've seen over the years that has bothered me a lot. And I had over the years, a number of friends that had started software companies and some companies that I didn't even know that were. [01:00:57] Well, you know, I knew all of them, but I didn't know the owners. Then they had database software, they had scheduling software. They had a lot of different things, and what Microsoft would do is they'd, they'd keep an eye on the market and they'd say, Oh wait, wow. Wow. That database is doing really well and it's winning. [01:01:18] A lot of DTA deals that our database software's not winning. And the allegations were that what Microsoft was doing was kind of being a predator here cause they would go to the company that had the database software and uh, chat with them and see if the company would sell out at a reasonable price. [01:01:42] And then this is so anti competitive. It's crazy. But then. If that company didn't want to play ball, like sell themselves for super cheap to Microsoft, well, Microsoft was accused of doing and what Microsoft hadn't been convicted of doing in courts now is they would announce a product that competed directly with the small guy. [01:02:11] And wait to see who asked about it. So Microsoft would say, yeah, we have a database product for small businesses. Very easy to use. Drag and drop interface. Everything's going to be great. You are going to love it. And then Microsoft would sit there and see of companies would start calling them and say, when's your product going to be available? [01:02:34] What am I going to be able to do this? Well, in some cases they waited a year or more. And they never ever came out with a product. But what do you think happened to Mr. Small guy out there, the small business that had investors where the owners, they were founders had invested thousands of hours into it, maybe their entire life savings. [01:02:58] Well, people, companies, and I experienced this personally, companies who would sit there and say, well, you know, Microsoft is going to come out with something here. I want to see what Microsoft does. And so that small company. W is now out of business because what are they supposed to do? People aren't buying, you know, their models were based on so many sales and that was based on the people liking their product and talking about it and the marketing dollars they were spending. [01:03:29] But that money was going down the drain because Microsoft was there saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll, uh, we'll, we're going to do this. Yeah. Yeah, us, us, us. And so they got sued again and again, and they lost in court, but it was still cheaper for them and then made more money. Think of the billions in cash some of these companies are sitting on and, uh, that is a bad thing to do. [01:03:52] It really does hurt commerce. It certainly is not free trade. Uh, of course, we live now, I think in a largely a crony capitalist system. And they played that game. They played it very, very well. Well, back to our friends here, Amazon. But yet, you know, those allegations are still floating by the way, about Microsoft and many other companies that appear to be doing that thing in. [01:04:18] Here's what happened to them. Amazon. What happened was Amazon started looking at the merchants that were selling third party stuff on their websites, and the wall street journal has a great report on it right now because Amazon has its own in house brands. So it's making itself a direct competitor to many of these merchants who rely on the Amazon platform to reach. [01:04:50] Consumers. So now you've got your little product. Amazon is selling something that's similar to yours, or at least competitive with yours, and that's bad enough. But the wall street journal reviewed some internal company documents that showed that Amazon executives were asking for and getting data about specific marketplace vendors despite corporate policies against doing so. [01:05:23] Despite the fact that Amazon had testified in Congress that they never did this. And according to the wall street journal, more than 20 former employees told them that this practice of flouting those rules was commonplace. We knew we shouldn't, but at the same time, we're making Amazon branded products and we want to sell them. [01:05:48] So here's what they were doing. Amazon was looking. At what was being sold out there. And this one example that was given was something that I've bought. It's a car trunk organizer, and apparently Amazon employees access documents relating to that vendor's total sales. What the vendor paid Amazon for marketing and shipping and the amount Amazon made on each sale of the organizer before the company. [01:06:20] Then unveiled. It's own similar product. They're getting around the rules here. W we'll get into this when we get back. I'll tell you about some of these Amazon brands that you might not even be aware are Amazon brands. You're listening to Craig, Peter sawn here on w G a N every Saturday from one til 3:00 PM cause stick around. [01:06:43] We'll be right back. And of course there's a whole lot more to come today. [01:06:52] Hey, welcome back everybody. Craig, Peter sawn here. We were just talking about our friends at Amazon. I remember getting really, really upset with them. I sent them a a note, uh, years ago, decade or more, certainly more a go because Amazon decided it would patent something that it called one click ordering. [01:07:17] As though one click ordering was like some major leap forward and, and, and I couldn't believe the us patent and trademark office actually gave them a patent because I knew other sites that were doing it as well. It. This whole thing is totally upside down, not just with Amazon, but now you can get patents on almost anything and not, not just, I'm not just complaining about business processes here, business process patents, which, uh, I don't like. [01:07:48] Uh, but all the whole patent world, the whole thing has been changed, turned on its head with the new patent laws. It has gotten even worse, not better. Yeah, it makes it easier for the government, but in reality, it I think is hurting a lot of businesses. So let's see what we're talking about with Amazon here, where Amazon was combing through the data of these third party vendors that make up for about 50% of the products sold on amazon.com. [01:08:20] And these employees were accessing the data about what the vendor's total sales were, and they were getting around the rules by bending the concept of what's called aggregation according to the wall street journal and well, Amazon says that it did not access individual seller data. It did create reports of aggregate. [01:08:45] Seller data. And if a pool is large enough, that wouldn't be a problem. So if you've got 200 vendors selling iPhone cases, okay, but the example that the wall street journal is using here is have a trunk organizer. So in reality, how many trunk organizers were there at the time? So this pool of vendors, very, very small. [01:09:11] And when you're talking about a group of two entities, uh, okay, it's aggregated, but what's that telling them. So what Amazon had done then is they said, Oh, wait a minute. This is a very profitable niche that people who are using our services to sell it are in. So your small business, you come up with this idea of a trunk organizer, and it's better than any trunk organizer that's ever been made, and you're going to add two extra compartments to it. [01:09:43] I don't know what you're going to do right. You're going to make it very firm, very strong, and it can fold up, fit into a corner. And so you have to make some prototypes. You have to figure out, how do I do this? You might make a trip or two to maybe heaven forbid China or Indonesia or some other country, right? [01:10:02] Other than China, please. And you go out there for a few times, you. You end up paying, you know, easily 10 $20,000 just to have a stamp made that can stamp out your little product there for the insides. And then you got to get another vendor that had ships to that, that takes the material, sows it all together, and then can ship it out. [01:10:25] And then you have to have a minimum order sitting there in Amazon's warehouses ready to go. So you're into this one a hundred grand, maybe more. Plus all of the time that you spent doing it, which now is lost opportunity costs because you weren't doing something else while you were trying to design this chunk organizer. [01:10:50] So you have spent life savings on this. You've put it together. If you ever watched shark tank, and you look at some of these people, right? Most of those businesses fail. Even the ones that make it to shark tank. So you've done all of this. You had hoped that your business would succeed. Well, you're selling it. [01:11:13] It is succeeding. It's doing well. Maybe you've made back $50,000 of that a hundred thousand you put into it and maybe you get up to a hundred thousand Amazon notices. Whoa, this guy's making a lot of money. Maybe we should get into that trunk organizer business. In fact, we know exactly which models, which colors, which fabrics of his trunk organizer are selling. [01:11:43] Hm. So Amazon then takes the idea and runs with it. Amazon now has more than 145 private label brands. This is a huge, huge number. There is a website out there called this Justin. TGI research and they have a list of these brands that Amazon has. I'm scrolling through it right now. I had no idea. Most of these were Amazon. [01:12:18] You know, you've heard, I'm sure of Amazon essentials. That sounds like an Amazon brand, right? It is. Amazon basics. Okay. Those are obvious. But there's others like kids' clothing line scout and RO women's clothing, brand, Hayden Rose or furniture line stone and beam. Those are Amazon brands and you can't tell by the name, and I'm looking at this list over on this, Justin, and they all have their own logos. [01:12:54] You just, you would have no idea. Brass tacks leathercraft makes leather belts from, guess what those are? Those are Amazon chains. Ditch charming. Dove. Um, Ken sounds like charming Charlie, doesn't it? Hm. Uh, charm. Z silver. That sounds like chirpy. Oh my gosh. Amazon exclusive. Uh, and then charming Charlie's is out of business. [01:13:20] Right. Did you ever go there? My, some of my daughters used to love it cause you can get all of these little hoopy things and necklaces and stuff, but it goes on and on. This is, this is ridiculous. There's gotta be way more than what, what Tai and what wall street journal is reporting anyways, so they're saying those private labels account for 1% of Amazon's total sales. [01:13:45] That was according to a report last September, and some former employees apparently told the wall street journal that they are operating under the directive that Amazon's private label sales should be. 10% of the company's retail sales by 2022 so there you go. You know, we talked about the contentious relationships with eBay in the sellers. [01:14:11] Contentious relationships with Amazon in the sh in the sellers, the European union's competition Bureau opened up an investigation against Amazon. This is a very, very bad thing here. Uh, antitrust subcommittee chairman, David Sicilian from Rhode Island in house judiciary committee chair. Gerald Nadler. [01:14:36] We're pretty upset about this quote. This is yet another example of sworn testimony of Amazon's witnesses being directly contradicted by investigative reporting. So yay. At least somebody is doing investigative reporting out there. So I don't know. What are you going to do? I was upset with Amazon. I told them I'd never do business with them again, and then probably about 10 years later, I started doing some business with them again because it was the only place I could buy some of the things I wanted to buy, but they've been using this merchant data not good. [01:15:10] Not good at all. Well, we have a couple more cool things. We only have a minute or so left here in this segment, but let's get into this very, very quickly. At least get started. This is from dark routine.com they have a lot of great articles, but consumers and small to medium businesses are likely to fall. [01:15:31] For Corona virus scams. It said, now, I have seen a lot of emails coming in to me from companies saying that they can get me some of these loans. Uh, I don't think so. Uh, and I have, I saved some of them. I should put those out in my membership site or in the newsletter. You can see some of them do some training

Learn more about Vice Ventures by following their Instagram accountDue to COVID-19 we are no longer asking for financial support for the show, instead you can now join free mentorship group calls with Fabian to get through this together. Join here.Full Transcript:F Geyrhalter:Welcome to the show, Catharine.Catharine:Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome.F Geyrhalter:Oh absolutely. So you're in your late 20s, you did your time on the M&A team at Walmart, as well as worked for the founder of Bonobos. And you now run a VC firm that invests in all the things normal VCs not only not invest in, but are usually advised to never ever invest in. Your firm is called Vice Ventures, and vice meaning immoral or wicked behavior. This includes anything from alcohol to drugs, gambling, sex, you name it. All the things that VCs stay away from.F Geyrhalter:And they actually even have a vice clause in many VC firms which inhibits the majority of them to invest in otherwise highly lucrative industries like edibles and e-sports, which is kind of crazy. And it's a crazy good market if someone is smart and bold enough to step into it, and that is exactly what you have done. On your website, your one liner, and that's pretty much all there is on the website, it reads, "Vice Ventures is a seed stage venture capital fund conquering stigmas and striving towards superior returns by investing in good companies operating in bad industries." I absolutely love that. How did Vice Ventures start out, and how difficult was it to get the initial fund for Vice Ventures established?Catharine:Yeah, so about two and a half years ago now, I guess, I invested in a canned wine business with the last of my Wall Street bonus, when I was working for Andy. Then flash forward, I followed Andy to Walmart after the acquisition on the digitally native vertical brands. I'm an 18 there. Some people absolutely love working at Walmart in M&A, and I was not one of those people, so early on I told Andy that I wanted to leave and I wanted to work in venture. He was extremely supportive of it. I interviewed at a ton of super venture firms just because I knew all these [inaudible 00:02:08] managing Andy's portfolio. And they all asked me to pitch a business. So I pitched Bev, which is the direct to consumer, now Omni Channel, canned wine business that I invested in early on that Founders Fund recently came in for.Catharine:And at the time all of these fund managers were like, you know Catharine, we love the founder, we love the brand, we love our strategy. We just can't get involved because we just can't invest in alcohol. And that to me, it was just unbelievably shocking that this whole category of investment people just couldn't touch to you even though spirits have exits every few months. Beer have a great run of high multi revenue exits. And I just couldn't believe that they weren't allowed to invest in it. And then upon further investigation I learned about the vice clause, which exists in most, I would argue, of a seed stage series A consumer funds. Meaning that they can't invest in alcohol, cannabis, nicotine, sex tech, online gambling, psilocybin and ketamine, you name it. They're barred from those investments.Catharine:So that's basically how I came up with the idea for the fund. The thesis proved true when I met the founder of Recess, which is a CBD sparkling water. I was one of the first people to invest in him. We had one meeting. I thought the brand was brilliant. I thought Ben Witte, the founder, had really something special about him. So I committed on the spot. I raised a pretty big SPV, begging people to invest in me. I had some people who were like, we're only investing because we believe in you, not because we believe in Recess. I was like whatever, like that's totally fine with me.F Geyrhalter:Take your money. Take it.Catharine:Yeah. Like whatever. So then that took off and that proved the thesis true because a lot of big funds loved the branding as well, and loved the founder but couldn't get involved because they had this vice clause. Because full spectrum hemp has 0.3% THC.F Geyrhalter:And you got Marc Andreessen, one of the biggest names in Silicon Valley, to invest fairly early on in your fund. Right? How did you pull that off? How does a conversation like that go about? Especially in the beginning where you weren't in the press and people didn't quite know. How did you, A, approach him? How did you even get a meeting with him? And what did he say after you told him what's going on?Catharine:That's so funny. Yeah. So I have a pretty incredible lawyer, meaning that he's more of a partner for Vice Ventures than he is just legal advice. And he was like look out there, you don't have the money to pay for this if you don't soft circle cash beforehand for the docs. He's like, you need to find people who want to invest before we spend, I don't know, 60 to $100,000 incorporating a fund. So I was like, okay fine. So he goes off in a hurry and leave and I'm thinking of who invest in funds. I have absolutely no idea. I don't come from money.Catharine:And then I was like, who is the richest person I have the email of? And that was Marc Andreessen. So I just cold emailed Marc Andreessen with this deck that three other people had seen before. And I was like, he's probably not going to respond, whatever. At least I tried.F Geyrhalter:Right.Catharine:And then I woke up in the middle of the night, like at two in the morning, just bolt upright awake. Which is really rare for me. I'm a very good sleeper. And I checked my email and he responded. And I screamed. I started crying, I could not believe it. My husband was like, what is going on? It's two in the morning.Catharine:It was just such a pivotal balloon for me. And he was like, I love what you're doing. Is January too late? Because this was December. And I was like, absolutely not. So I flew out to San Francisco, I had no money. I slept in the shittiest Airbnb of all time. That was bunk beds and a ton of engineers that wanted maybe one day to start a business. It was so gross. And I went to his office, I got there 45 minutes early because I was terrified of being late. And I had nowhere to go because I didn't want to go in. So I just waited in this park area.F Geyrhalter:Oh this is awesome.Catharine:On the phone with my lawyer who was in shock that anybody was paying attention to me. Yeah. And then the meeting went really well. Marc is, I mean he lives up to the hype. He's a complete genius. He asked me highly intelligent questions. He got the concept very quickly. And he committed. It was awesome.F Geyrhalter:Wow. That's-Catharine:And very lucky.F Geyrhalter:That is pretty amazing. And so to date, I mean, this is how long ago? Like a year and a half, two years? Not that long ago, right?Catharine:Yeah. So it was 2019, January.F Geyrhalter:Okay. Yeah. Good. So you're a year plus in. What are some of the big investments? And what type of companies are there? Would we know any of them? Any background that some of the companies you invested in would be awesome.Catharine:Yeah. So we recently announced a sizeable investment in a company called Lucy. And Lucy is founded by some of the Soylent founders. It's a nicotine gum and lozenger business. And the thesis is basically that e-cigarettes has helped create a whole new generation of smokers or vapers, and 90% of people who tried to stop smoking or vaping failed to do so. So basically Lucy is coming in and reducing the harm of vaping and smoking by having very flavorful gums and lozengers.F Geyrhalter:That super cool.Catharine:It's brilliant. I'm obsessed with the founders. I'm obsessed with the idea. I talk to them weekly. I love them very, very much.F Geyrhalter:Right.Catharine:So that's one. Yeah, sorry.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, no, sorry to interrupt. But I was actually on the Lucy site last night to prep for the podcast. And I mean, what a cool... I mean, not only a great idea, right? But what a really, really well executed brand. And one of the things that they state on the site, "Come for the nicotine, stay for the breath of fresh air." I mean, branding must've been such a crucial element, they way they decide to structure the brand. So now add the interest, overall it's really smart and right on the money. How far along were they with the messaging and branding when you invested in them?Catharine:I met them about three years ago before I had the [inaudible 00:09:10]. I was still working for Andy. I loved the founder, or the CEO. There's three founders. We hopped on the call, we just spoke probably for over an hour. It was scheduled to be 30 minutes. We just got along so well, it was wild. And I just immediately understood what he was doing and why he was doing it. And he was raising a seed round at the time, but I didn't have a fund and I didn't really have any money because I'd invested in Bev already. So then he came to New York with one of their designer, Julio, and we ended up having a two and a half hour breakfast. It was an absolute blast. I immediately recognized and saw how intelligent this team was. And I stayed really, really close with them because I knew that I wanted to be involved in the series A, in a big way.F Geyrhalter:And at that point the brand was already pretty developed, right? Or did it change a lot? And how hands-on are you with that? I mean, I heard in one of your interviews that you like to have that advisor and mentor role as well.Catharine:Yeah. I mean, I definitely end up being that role for a lot of my founders. One of my founders recently went through a breakup and called me every day for three and a half weeks. Like two in the morning. Which is fine. My husband's the same, he's so patient.Catharine:But I mean, I take those calls because I've built something. I'm like, I know how difficult and how stressful it is to build something from scratch and just to have somebody who both invested in you and believes in you. I have one LP like that who, I'm so incredibly lucky that he invested in me because he hosted my portfolio company. He will give me a second eye on businesses. He helps with the operations of the fund. And just because he loves the thesis and loves the movement that we're trying to start. [crosstalk 00:11:13] So it's based on choices. It's a really strong community.F Geyrhalter:What are some other startups? I interrupted you before because I got too excited about Lucy.Catharine:Lucy is definitely one to be excited about.F Geyrhalter:Right, right. Any other ones? You did invest in Mod recently, right?Catharine:Yes. Another founder that is very dear to my heart. I invested in her because I thought the brand was extremely strong in the sense that it was very clean and it wasn't very kitschy or really girly. It was very gender neutral intimacy business. And they sell vibrators, condoms, lubricants, bath salts, candles. They're actually in J. Crew right now, which is awesome.F Geyrhalter:Oh wow.Catharine:Yeah, they're in a ton of stores, mom and pop stores and all throughout the Northeast. Yeah. And they're doing very, very well.F Geyrhalter:Well, and with Mod, I mean, Mod looks more like [inaudible 00:12:15] on steroids then having anything to do with sex. Right? I mean, it's-Catharine:Yeah. It's beautiful.F Geyrhalter:And you discussed, I think it was in the podcast with Chase, and you discussed how obviously, pretty obviously, companies that are in the business of sex cannot advertise on Google, Facebook, et cetera. Right? But Mod was so smart that they created ads in the beginning for the beautiful looking massage candle, which is just a beautiful looking candle, and that's how they lured people through these ads onto their site. And I just think that's so whip smart. I guess, no pun intended. But with the startups you advise and invest in, do most of these advertising, marketing, those branding ideas come from the founders themselves, or through the help of external agencies or consultants?Catharine:It really depends on the business. I have an advisor for Vice Ventures, Costa Damaskos who runs an agency called Virtually Real. So they did a lot of work with Recess, which is how I met him. So he also works with a lot of my founders and helps them think about branding, helps them think about messaging, packaging, website. We're about to get a new website. He did our website and it looks amazing. Yeah. So a lot of the companies in the portfolio they use Costa.F Geyrhalter:So when you work with startups, when do you advise them to invest in branding? Does it vary by focus? Because you mentioned your Vice Ventures website, but it is pretty anti-brand though, your website, right? It's literally a splash page. It's a beautiful splash page with the perfect messaging. Right? Or did it change? Have I been on the wrong site?Catharine:It's about to be a lot more robust.F Geyrhalter:Ah, okay.Catharine:But when you run a one person fund and you have separate portfolio companies, you have a priorities list and the website for me does the job, so I haven't really bothered to change it. But for a lot of my portfolio companies, I mean, super important because it's Vice, because a lot of them can't advertise through traditional channels. It's really important they have strong branding and really good PR. I would argue.F Geyrhalter:So you advise them pretty early on to invest in branding and get their story right. Then ensure that they understand the customer and the messaging, et cetera, et cetera.Catharine:Yeah. But what's funny about a lot of these Vice products is that, like take Recess, for example, it's the first time in the history of the world there's been the CB sparkling water. And it's rapidly growing, they have huge orders online in the Midwest. And it's really interesting to think who that customer is and how that customer is consistently changing as the brand gets bigger and bigger.F Geyrhalter:Right, because in the beginning it's not a customer that exists yet. Right? And that's what's so interesting is defining someone out of nowhere and just... I mean, you must be doing, I mean not you, right? But the founders of a company like that must be doing tons of AB tests, and data must be super important. Right? Even though in the beginning it's most probably a lot of gut instinct.Catharine:Totally. [inaudible 00:15:39].F Geyrhalter:Have you... Oh go ahead.Catharine:No, no, go.F Geyrhalter:How have you invested in any psychedelic startups? The reason why I ask, there is a mesmerizing article in the March edition of Forbes magazine. And I couldn't even believe it. I think it's 12 pages in Forbes that goes deep into that subject. And it discusses how many bet on psilocybin being the next big thing to cure PTSD. And psilocybin of course being the psychoactive component of magic mushrooms. It's a fascinating space that is currently being quite the hype. And from what I have read, rightfully so. Have you touched any of that?Catharine:No, I haven't, just because the horizon of my fund is 10 years. And I think a lot of these companies are going through FDA process to be approved. I think their return portfolio is probably a little more than 10 years. So I think it's a bit early for venture funds, unless you're a family office and you can of course wait 20 years for a return.F Geyrhalter:I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But are you interested in that kind of company? How do you see that? Did you read up about it at all? Is that something that's on your horizon?Catharine:Yeah, I mean I see anywhere between 80 and 200 businesses a week internationally.F Geyrhalter:Oh wow.Catharine:So I've seen a ton, a ton of psilocybin businesses, whether they're in the US, or their in Amsterdam, Canada. I just think it's too early for Vice Ventures to be involved in that yet. I mean, I'm not a doctor, I don't have the background being a doctor. I can't understand the FDA. I can understand the research papers that have been done on it. But at the end of the day I can't make the best call on whether a psychedelic business is better than a different psychedelic business. Like for branding at least I feel like I have that background. I worked for a founder who invested in incredible brands and created an incredible brand. So I kind of know what building that business looks like. But when it comes to, like for example [inaudible 00:17:49], which is an incredible psilocybin business, they just passed to be process of the FDA and that is meaningless to me. I can research it again, but I'm not the best person to make a judgment call on that.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, no, no, totally. So out of those 100 plus companies that come across your desk, I guess your email, on a weekly basis, how do you judge which ones you read, which ones you open, which ones you actually have a meeting with? How is your process? I mean, you get inundated with that.Catharine:Yeah, I do. The first thing I look for is brands. So we don't invest in extraction businesses and growth facilities and tanning companies, like packaging companies. We are strictly pretty much brand investors. Unless, I mean the one exception I guess would be Player's Lounge, which is a platform for e-sports. But even then, they have a very strong brand for what they're doing. Yeah, so brand first. Then I'll take a screening call. I never meet with founders in person until I've had a screen. And then the third one is meet me in person and [inaudible 00:19:04] vetting who they are as a human. Like we try to invest only in super intellectually honest people, just because investing advice, the regulations change constantly. The compliance changes. You really need somebody that has the intellectual honesty to know when they need help. So that's something, that's a character trait that I definitely look for.F Geyrhalter:Makes a lot of sense. And to make sure that they don't misspell your name.Catharine:Yeah. [crosstalk 00:19:32] That is the first thing. I'm like, do you have attention to detail?F Geyrhalter:It's Catharine with an A, that's why we have this little joke here. For those listeners who might not know. What does branding mean to you? I mean, you only invest in brands. You invest in brands that go totally against the grain. Often they create an entire niche that doesn't exist anymore. They create a customer. They have to tell stories in ways that have never really been told before. And very often these startup brands actually have to completely reinvent themselves before they even launch because they need to be so different. What does that nasty word branding, which so often gets a bad rep, what does branding mean to you on a day-to-day basis as you work with these founders?Catharine:I'll give a great example of a brand that I fell in love with from day one. Recess. Just in the first... We had an hour conversation. He showed me the deck. He didn't have a can yet. He didn't have beverage or the product on hand. But the idea of Recess and taking a Recess and understanding that almost every American has that nostalgic feeling of being a child and running around the playground. I was in immediately. I was like, this makes 100% sense. And another example is I invested in a CBD health and wellness business called Plant People. And a plant person, could you have a stronger brand for your CBD health and wellness? Like it's absolutely genius. And people are now buying hats from them. They're buying totes. And it's like, that's just proving that the brand is strong when you're buying the apparel as well as the actual products for sale.F Geyrhalter:Totally. I had Michael Lastoria of &Pizza. It's the ampersand pizza brand. I had him on the podcast and it was so fascinating to hear when he suddenly realized that some of his employees literally, you know the guys that are at the cashier's desk and flipping the pizzas and putting the pies together. They started to actually tattoo the ampersand logo onto their skin. And not temporarily. Like literally he suddenly saw employees of his with his brand mark literally marked on them. And he started to realize that the ampersand means so much to his employees because they feel like they get a second chance. And for the first time they have a real job where it's really exciting and they have great benefits, and it's a team. And the ampersand stands for this is the beginning of something much bigger.F Geyrhalter:And I thought it was such a wonderful story because how a brand name, like in the two cases that you just gave, or a brand mark can actually really stand for so much for so many people. And it goes way outside what a brand thought it would do with it, which is super cool. If you would give, I would say D to C companies, because that's a lot of the companies, it seems, that you're in the space of investing. What is brand advice that you give them? It sounds like with names you really are drawn to brands that are smart, that have very intelligent intellectual forward thinking founders. And so the name is a representation of that.F Geyrhalter:And it sounds like you put a lot of weight to that, at least subliminally when you see it. And you're like, well this is really, really smart. But what is some advice that you would have for... I mean, I know you have tons of advice because you give advice 24/7, I guess, at two in the morning when a founder calls. But what are some of the big brand lessons that you feel like you learned or issues that you've seen that you would love to have other startup founders overcome easier?Catharine:Yes. The first thing that I would say, I mean, I've sat down with two of my founders and gone through this process. But it's to really understand who is buying or wagering on your site or platform. Because then you can change the branding ad to cater to your biggest customers. And I think that's a way to lock down your customers, attract their friends and become more of like a super sticky business just by changing the way that you're talking to the people who are using it. I think that's really important. [crosstalk 00:24:11] If that made any sense at all.F Geyrhalter:It makes lots of sense. How do they go about it? Right? I mean, especially if you have very early stage startups and you say, hey, you really got to figure out how your customer is. How do they then go about it? I mean, is it an email outreach to their client? Is it literally picking up the phone? How do you get to know them and then to understand them?Catharine:So I think it's a combination of all those things. The first step is always just go to through the data and start Googling people's names and see exactly who they are and what they do. And if there's a common thread between the top 100 people who use your product. And then it's also just getting on the phone with people and just being like, hey, I'm calling from XX, I would love to know how you like using our platform. We've seen you've used it for the past six months and recently you started using it less, why is that? Can I offer you 10% off or something? For your time. And I think talking to customers is really the best way to get feedback on what you're doing.F Geyrhalter:Right. So you have to establish the data in the beginning when you don't really have it yet, you just have to do it manually with a spreadsheet. Which is-Catharine:Yep, exactly.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, which is kind of nice, liberating to hear that that's how it's still done. What's next for Vice Ventures? What is exciting you in the next couple of months? Because I didn't want to look years because that's way too far ahead. In the next couple of [crosstalk 00:25:37] months.Catharine:Impossible. I mean, we're still heavily focused on harm reduction nicotine as a category, that honestly I'm trying to coin. But as I said, 90% of people fail to stop smoking or vaping, and I think Lucy is definitely going to be a clear winner. But I think there's also clear winners that just haven't been created yet. Or that I just haven't seen. And I think I'm very excited about that space. I'm also excited about cannabis brands in the longer term because I think that a lot of cannabis companies in California and throughout the country are raising absurd valuations. But I think a lot of them are going to run out of money and not going to be bailed out by a lot of their investors. So I think it will great deals to scoop up, if I may say that myself there. And then I'm also still fundraising. So I'm meeting super interesting people. I love fundraising. I think it's such a privilege to be able to do it.F Geyrhalter:Wow, that's shocking actually to hear. Because [crosstalk 00:26:42] most people hate it. Yeah.Catharine:I know. I don't know why, I think people just have the wrong attitude about it. You literally going to interview people to see if they want to invest in the fund. You get to decide if they can invest in the fund or not. And you get to learn all about them, because usually these people are wildly successful and most of the times [inaudible 00:27:03].F Geyrhalter:You know-Catharine:It's like the cool opportunity.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, it sounds like... And I mean, look, that's why someone like Marc Andreessen takes your calls. Because you have the [inaudible 00:27:18] you're actually excited about it. So listen, this is interesting about the CBD brands. I run a consultancy, we work with startups. We create clarity and focus with them early on, very much like what do you do in an advisory role. And during this entire hype with CBD companies I had so many inquiries of companies that wanted to work with me, and not a single one of them came through. They all end up being so stereotypically, sadly, like slackers or something comes up, things don't go right. It's just like, the contract never comes together. There's this whole stigma that I really didn't think would still exist. But do you see any of that too? Or do you have such a strict Catharine filter that those would never even make it up to your email list?Catharine:Like stigma for?F Geyrhalter:Just for [crosstalk 00:28:15]. Yeah, for the CBD industry. I have a really, really hard time finding CBD company founders that are super smart, that are on it, that are actually... I mean, there's maybe one out of 10 that contact me where I feel like, okay, they would actually be able to do this.Catharine:Yeah. I mean I also kind of have a thesis that the CBD companies that are going to win are the ones that already exist, just because it's getting so crowded. So I tend to not take meetings with CBD founders, to be honest, just because I think the fund is overexposed to CBD. But then also I think Plant People and Recess are the winners. Like pretty clearly. But I mean I'm clearly really biased.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, no, totally [crosstalk 00:29:06].Catharine:Yeah, I don't know. I've seen CBD subscription boxes, which I think are ridiculous. I've seen tons of CBD. But I agree that a lot of these operators aren't intellectually honest or just intelligent in general.F Geyrhalter:What are some of the most ridiculous Vice idea that came into your inbox in the last weeks?Catharine:Oh my God.F Geyrhalter:You're like, oh my God this is never going [crosstalk 00:29:37] to happen.Catharine:This is the craziest story. Sex dolls are being sold in Japan that self lubricate, and the hair grows. They need haircuts.F Geyrhalter:Oh my God. Oh my God.Catharine:And I was like-F Geyrhalter:I didn't just hear that. Crazy.Catharine:[crosstalk 00:29:56] And of course I took the phone call because I was like, I'm so curious. I have so many questions. I need to know. And it ended up being over an hour, which is very rare for me. Usually I always cut my calls off at 30 minutes. And I'm like, this is truly wild. Like so wild.F Geyrhalter:Wow. And clearly, clearly you invested.Catharine:Oh my God, I did not invest. I did not see an exit for it. But absolutely captivated.F Geyrhalter:Yeah, no, totally. And I mean, isn't that part of the job that's so exciting. That you just see what could be next and what people are thinking about. And I mean, yeah, I mean you must have such a good insight into the current zeitgeist just by getting all this stuff into your inbox.Catharine:Yeah. I mean, I was actually, I went out to dinner with my incredible lawyers last night. Who took me on as client at 25 years old. They're amazing. And we were talking about how some of my idols, I don't want to say names, but some of my idols in VC that I looked up to when I was working for Andy. Now, you know me, and they're like, hey Catharine, what do you think about this cannabis company? Or, what do you think about this audio porn business? And it just so surreal. And I always screenshot it and I sent it to my lawyer and I'm like, oh my God. So crazy.F Geyrhalter:That is so awesome. So awesome. Wait, I'm going to wait a little, there's an airplane coming by. We're in the temp store and sometimes that happens. You said that you're finally making the Vice Ventures brand a little bit more mature because so far you didn't have to do any of that. It's a one woman business. People know you. I mean you, it's not like you need to advertise, you get plenty of emails. How do you go about that new brand? And are you going to add people to your team? What is the future of your own brand?Catharine:Yeah, so my dream is to turn Vice Ventures into a multi-generational asset class. And I think for fund one, I would love to add somebody to it. I think that'll probably come in the next few weeks. I've already interviewed, I'd say probably 20 plus people. But that first hire, as any founder knows, is extremely important and incredibly difficult to do. Especially for a fund like Vice Ventures where, I mean, we get a lot of attention. Which is great. I mean, it's awesome. But it's that first hire has to be a true rock star.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely. Very cool.Catharine:Yeah.F Geyrhalter:How can people get in touch with you if they want to pitch you?Catharine:info@ViceVentures is the best way for sure.F Geyrhalter:Boom. Done. Easy does it.Catharine:Yeah, I check that. I am pretty religious about checking my emails. Yeah.F Geyrhalter:That's awesome. Yeah. If you take a one hour call with a sex doll manufacturer, potentially there's no risk for you not reading any emails. So that is super, super cool. Catharine, I love talking with you. I absolutely love where you're going with all of this. And I'm looking forward to following you on Instagram. Actually, what is your Instagram handle for everyone listening?Catharine:Catharine Dockery. C-A-T-H-A-R-I-N-E  D-O-C-K-E-R-Y.F Geyrhalter:Perfect Awesome. Yeah, because that's where people can get a good idea of who you are into and who you're investing in. And I think there's a lot of knowledge for people to gain from this. Catharine, thank you for your time. I know it's like we're going past half an hour and you just said you're not taking calls over half an hour. So here we go. I got to immediately finish this up. Thank you so much for your time and for your insights. We super appreciate it. It was great having you on.Catharine:Yeah. Perfect. Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast.F Geyrhalter:Absolutely.

Hey this is Angie Monroe of the warrior divas show broadcasting live each Tuesday 11 am Central from globe life park in Arlington, Texas login to hear real talk with real women that will empower and equip you to make a more powerful impact in the world each Tuesday 11 am Central on fishbowl Radio Network Hello, and welcome to warrior divas real talk for real women. I am your host Angie Leigh Monroe, our show is specifically that was right I said specifically, incorrectly because I too can mess up from time to time. It is specifically designed for our divas;  divas is an acronym for Destin inspired victorious accountable sisters. And we will be bringing guests on our show who will help in our mission to equip and empower a global community of women change agents as we make a positive impact in the world we live in. When we started divas impact four years ago, we quip that we wanted to change the way women think and speak about themselves and others. As we've progressed, so has our thinking and out of our intentions, we want to talk about things that are impacting women. So this means we talk about faith, family, fitness, finance, food and a lot of other words that don't begin with f. So today we welcome Laurie Vaughn speaks of lbs consulting loriann speaks is an expert in the area of speaker and author support. She amplifies the visibility of authors, speakers and messengers. While they do what they love. Speak. laurieann has helped spearhead multiple best selling book campaigns, editing proofing, through to launch and social media marketing to help authors create buzz and momentum throughout social media platforms and increase their Message worldwide loriann and her team have made it their mission to empower speakers to deliver their message by handling the rest of the details. Prior to starting their own company loriann had over 15 years of professional experience supporting a top 100 thought leader as she built her businesses. Welcome to the show. loriann Thanks so much, Angie. It's a pleasure to be here. Well, I personally know what a busy busy lady you are. And you've had some major projects you're working on for some of my friends, and you've done some work for me as well. But before we get into all that, what I want to visit with you about who you are and how you got here today, is that all right. Yeah, totally cool. Yeah. I love that. So if you can just kind of give us a backstory. You. You said you work for a thought leader for 15 years. I'm sure there's things you did before that. I know you're a mom. So you're one What are some of the things that kind of led you to where you are today? Well, great, yeah. Yes, I am no spring chicken. I've probably had four different careers in my lifetime. I started off in my teens and 20s being so politically involved and got my degrees in political science and economics and wanted to be in politics. Thank goodness and thank God up above that he had other plans for me, and I am not there now. So I did that. And then I became a recruiter. And when the when 911 happened, my recruiting business went to hell in a handbasket. So, I started working for this thought leader, and I was hurt for all intents purposes, girl Friday. office manager, you know, gatekeeper. And I spent 15 years learning the business of speakers and authors. And so, but really, once I had children my focus, you know, I, like I said, I started off wanting to be, like President of the United States, you know, the first woman president of the United States. Then I had children. And I realized, Oh, this is, this is what I'm good at. This is what I love. And so, when you talk about where was I, and how have I gotten here, once I had children, the business kind of went as a means to an end instead of being you know, the end all and beall and being a mom was the number one thing in my life. And, and so, you know, I did I I worked at A regular job so I could be mom and Girl Scout leader and room mom and, and be able to do all the things that I wanted to do as a mom. I love that. Sorry. I said I love that. Yeah, you know, and I and I wouldn't have traded it for the world. You know. I'm kind of glad that I never really got into the whole corporate america thing. But what got me now to owning my own company, though, is that back in December of 2017, I was laid off, my boss decided to sell our company, and I knew it was coming. But But I decided I was just going to stay until the end because she needed me. And and, and so and I knew there wasn't going to be much difference between hitting the the, you know, employment market at 59 or at 60. I was pretty bad. You know, they're not going to be doing well and I and I just sat there and went, Okay, let's just see this through to the end. And once I was laid off, it became very clear to me that once again, corporate america wasn't going to be my, you know, my journey. I must have sent out 100 different resumes and never got a call, never got a call. And so I knew if I was going to continue to work, I better start my own company. And I did and I'm so glad I did. So glad I did. Well, I love the part that you said, you know, you saw the writing on the wall you saw she was retiring, stepping away and and but you stayed until the end. I think there's so much that's lost in that finishing well, moment. You know, you you worked with this woman side by side, you served her. You served her well over the 15 years, but you also finished Well, we With her and and that's got to be a sense of accomplishment that many people miss out on today. A lot of people see the writing on the wall and they're like I'm getting out while the getting out good button right. But it's finishing well that that right there is a good wealth of information for people to grab ahold of because we've been in a couple of situations when we've been with a church that was closing its doors or a company that's closing its doors, in that finishing Well, it feels like kind of like you put your kid to bed at night, you know, you kind of you kind of made sure that from the time they rose till the time they went to bed, everything was taken care of and they were they were handled in the best way possible. And it's the closing of a chapter in in celebration of that chapter as well. Exactly in and you know, it's a karma thing as well. And it was important to support her through this process because it wasn't necessarily something she was all that jazz to do, but knew that she needed to just get out from under the actual company aspect. And just go back to being Bev and you know, and enjoying her life with her husband of 44 years. So. So I was supportive. And that's kind of the way I am with my clients now. And it is a common thing because Beth has probably introduced me and referred me to at least 1520 of our friends. Wow, over the last two and a half years, so it's it. I think you get what you get. Right? I think that's really the way life boils down. Is yet you get what you give. So I agree wholeheartedly. Good. Yeah. Well, one of the things that We've talked about whenever you and I have been on the phone before, was that you kind of not use that nurturing that you use with your children with with your thought leader that you support it with all the with all the companies you've been with, you've used that nurturing aspect of yourself. It's not a part of your DNA, it is your whole DNA. That's, that's the part that I love about you is you, you see the potential and the possibilities in in people. And you want to call that out and you want to help support that and, and push push them and challenge them. But you do it in a way that is very impactful. And I want to commend you for that while I have you on the air because you don't get to tell people that very often where they actually slow down and listen to it, say it. Well, thank you. Thank you. I have really You know, when I started the company, I wouldn't say that I was passionate about what I was doing, until I really realized how much mentoring was involved because I was now working with a lot of what I call newbies. Right? And I love mentoring. That's, that's what I'm all about. And once I embraced that, and realized, this is what I can be doing for so many people, that's when I got passionate about what I was doing. Well, I think one of the other remarks that comes to mind is something that Michael Hyatt has said before, you know, people go out and I'm gonna have you share a little more specifically about the business you started here in a minute, but Michael Hyatt commented one time and I've kind of hung my hat on it is don't go out and look for people to help you get where you're going that haven't been there you go and you look for people. To help you get where you're going that have already been there, whether it's an assistant, a coach, a mentor, whatever it is, a lot of times people go okay well I can't afford a virtual assistant a high paying virtual assistant so I'm just going to get some little girl off the street help her have her help her out, help me out, you know it's a helping each other out type of Jerry Maguire moment helped me show you the money type thing. But they're not equipped. They they haven't been where you're wanting to go and Michael Hyatt says if you want to be a fortune 500 company you need a coach that has been a leader in the fortune 500 into industry if you want to, or you need an administrative assistant that has served as a role in a fortune 500 company, you need a a support system that has been where you want to go and and i think that's beautiful because you said you work with speakers and authors and and messengers and, and those are the people that you've already served and served in a high capacity. And so you can serve your clients so much better because you've already been there done that saying that you know what to expect even before they expect it, you know how to talk them off the roof. All of that. So, so yeah, tell us tell us a little bit more about the company you started what you do, and, and what type of company it is. Well, we are a virtual assistance company, but we literally specialize in speakers, authors and podcasters. So those are our clients. Although many of the the things that I talk about and have like a, a white paper on how to increase your speaking business, if you've got a small business that you need to raise your visibility. A lot of the things that are on that list can be used for small businesses as well. But what we do is we help the speakers and authors raise their presence in social media, help them write that book and get it to bestseller status. help them find more stages. And, and, and for those that are very much established, and they've gotten to the point where they're on the stages, but they just don't have the time to deal with all the, you know, logistics and administrative stuff. Right? I was gonna say a dirty word. You know, to deal with all that we take that off their plate, and we'll handle the the business side of it, and make sure that all the T's are crossed and the i's are dotted, so that they can go out on the road, do their speeches and know everything's being taken care of. Well, I think it's, you know, one of those things that when people say Alright, I've spoken at all these places, I want to have my own event. I don't think they understand fully what all that entails. But you've put those on for people before. So, you know, having somebody like you quote unquote, in their back pocket is is a huge benefit, I'm sure. Well, yeah, there is a lot involved. And, and just knowing how to negotiate with the the venue is important, because and finding the right venue for you and your budget. So, yeah, I've been involved in in all that. But yes, there's a lot of little pieces. And I find that the creatives, which is the community that I serve, have some amazing, great ideas, but they don't know how to bring that to fruition. And that's why I come in, I'm sort of their Yin to their Yang. You know, I will reverse engineer their idea to figure out how to get there. I used an analogy explaining what to do the other day to somebody I said, when you have that picture, perfect image of what you want. She's the puzzle maker out of it. She comes in, she takes the pieces apart, and puts it in a way that you can pick your pieces together as you need, whether you're an inside to the outside or an outside to the inside person, she helps put that picture together for you. So she takes your full picture, she breaks it down into bite sized pieces, so you can put it together the way you need to put it together. And they're like, oh, okay, you know, they're like, because I can't see how to get where I'm going from looking at the big picture. I'm like, that's why you need someone with a strategy mindset, which is what you have you and it comes so natural to you. You don't get ruffled whenever one thing's not going right because you're already expecting it to not go Hopefully I've planned it out properly and nothing does go wrong. But you know, life happens and and things do go wrong. And as I tell my client, no one in the audience knows that something's wrong. Exactly like when you get married, and you know, something will go wrong, but nobody will really even notice it. You know, just go with the flow. Have a great day, do your message. And we'll make sure that everything runs smoothly. So, you know, that's and I'm pretty even keeled. I don't I don't have extreme highs or lows. So, so I can keep it together and, and make sure everything works. You know, well, even in a in a kind of, you know, emergency situation. What is that old commercial? Never let them see you sweat. Yeah, those are the people you want in your corner is the ones that never let you see like Let them see you sweat. So I know, yesterday I got a notification, I have a large organization that I'm a part of. And we have two annual or two meetings a year that we do training for new new people that have joined our organization. And we have people come from all around the world. And they ended up after some major thought in listening to research and listening to the guests and everything. They decided to postpone this one and just resume in August. And, you know, there's there's definitely some some challenges when you have a big event. I mean, we're expecting 3000 people coming. And we're now postponing this event that's supposed to happen in two weeks. And now And so, one of the things that I realized and A lot of people don't is how many how this affects a trickle effect across so many parts, like I heard today, you know, on the news they were talking about, well the event will be fine because the event has insurance and that's true the event has an entrance has an insurance policy most events have insurance policies and if you're doing an event without an insurance policy, shame on you. But um, most events have insurance policy, but the the hotel that it was being held at the servers that were there, the transportation to him from the airport, the airport, so you know, we're dealing right now, in this time and age with this thing called the corona virus. And I've got a friend that's in Italy that owns a bed and breakfast who's totally impacted by this because she's in the we're all the study abroad students are at. So although all of them have been sent home, and so the parents aren't coming to visit the kids, the kids aren't there. There's a lot that's going on. And if I were an event organizer, even though I knew I had insurance, I think I'd be freaking out right now. Do you have anybody that you're hearing that about? Well, I mean, Justin there in Texas, I know that South by Southwest was canceled, yo. And I mean, and that's millions and millions of dollars to the local, you know, economy, right. lost. So yes, this is this is definitely causing some major troubles. The, you know, the things that the conferences that I know of right now that are in our industry are still happening, because they tend to be us centric, right. So those are still going on. But yeah, I'm also a member of the meeting planners International, so I know it Hitting big time to a lot of people. And Damn, I wish I had zoom. Zoom is doing magnificently over these last couple of weeks, right? Because companies are just making them now virtual meetings. And so you know, things can we can, we can flip things around. And and as I said, you know if something goes wrong, we'll fix it. You know, if something like this happens, and we can't have a live event, so let's have a virtual event, we can do it. Well, and that's part of what we've been talking about here lately is bringing in some people in doing virtual summit with people because we can get their messages out, we can band together stronger. You know, part of what we do is dig services help promote and empower other women and doing a virtual summit and in people like well, I want to be in a room with a bunch of girlfriends. I'm like right now, you know, Or, or invite your closest friends over to your house to watch the summit together. You know, there's a lot of different ways that we can think through this and do this a little bit better. But I know I sprung that question on you and it wasn't one that we had talked about discussing, but I figured it was right there in the middle of what we're doing right now. And you know, it needed to be addressed. I heard somebody the other day telling me that they were doing an event and they had like 1000 tickets sold. It was an outdoor event in April here in Texas. And I was like, okay, so you know, what's your what what insurance agent did you use for your event planning because I know a few that are in that industry. He goes, I don't have event insurance. I'm like you What? You're talking tornado season. You're talking rainy season. You're talking you just you chose the month in Texas that you just don't do that without an insurance policy. He was like, What? I had no idea so had him on the phone with an insurance agent ASAP you know? Oh, Lord better be glad you were there. Yeah, I'm coming. I'm coming in for dummies event in April as well. Yeah, I'll be I'll be there in Texas. Yeah. In in April, in that semi neighboring town, so I will be there as well. So excited about that. So now, you said that you worked with it was Bev right. The thought leader you worked with Yeah, Beverly, Kay, she, she Beverly Kay. She's amazing in the area of career development, employee engagement and retention, and her books, which Okay, so I don't know if you know this statistics, but most business books, the average sales are like 6000 over the period of their lifespan. Bev's love lose them has sold over a million copies? Well, yeah. And what we do did is that from her books, there were workshops created that were then sold to fortune 1000 companies. So we only worked with companies of 10,000 or more employees. Wow. But yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was a nice, nice, you know, but as you know, anytime you have a company and people that you are now responsible for, it's a headache. And at 75, she said, Okay, I'm kind of done with that whole aspect. She still speaks, but there was just no need for a full time in person and so, so and I totally understood that and I kept telling her because she was, she was feeling very upset that, you know, she was gonna let me go and I said, Beth, you do not owe me a job. You know, it's okay. It's over. Kay, right. And I'm so glad that it was so positive because, as I said, she has referred me to a number of different people that I work with now. And, and I'm having much more fun because instead of one author that I knew inside and out and all her, you know, her, her her speak, so to speak, and write, you know, so it did get kind of boring. You know, work can get can be boring if you're not totally engaged. Well, now I get to work with so many different authors that I've learned from each one. And it's something different each day. So I am enjoying this fourth chapter in my life. So, you know, I mean, how many women at 62 can say, Hey, I am enjoying the heck out of working? Well, I think it's great, you know, how you speak above and how she she you know, Caring for you. It's evident that she inspired you, as well. Who were some of the other women that have been in your life that have inspired you? Well, you know, in my actual life, I mean, my mom was amazing and just really stoic. So I think I get my even keel from her. Every client I have. And I'd say probably 90% of my clients are women. Every client I have really does, you know, inspire me because I love each of their messages, and they're important. And so they inspire me to want to get them, you know, more and more visibility, because what they're talking about is important. If we're talking about you know, like, someone that's famous, my my role model, and don't laugh at me, okay? My role model is actually Dolly Parton. Oh, wow, that woman. Not only is she self deprecating, I mean, she's not full of herself, right? She's self deprecating. She is one of the most brilliant businesswoman. She has. She has a music book have over three 4000 songs that other people have sung. So, I mean, she's rolling in it, but she is also giving back. Like, like no other. Do you realize that Dolly Parton is like the number one book distributor in the world? Because she makes sure that every child that that writes to her will get a book every month from date of birth to the age of five when they enter school. Wow. I had just recently heard about her love for books and what she was doing, but I did not know that little tidbit. I believe, I believe the statistics are that she has given away over a billion books. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I hear those stories. And you know, I am small potatoes. But I hear those stories and I just think, oh, wow, Lord, can I just win the lottery and just have fun giving it away? Because that would just to me, that would make me happy. Right would make me happy. Right. So I just I just totally love Dolly Parton. I'm in love with Dolly Parton. Well, you and my husband so my husband has said that his one concert he wants to go to he wants to see he is super in love with Dolly Parton. You know, and we're, you know, we're still in our 40s and he's like, I don't know what it is. She's just she's so so engaging and so real. And doesn't take herself too seriously. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so giving and I have never heard word one that's negative about Dolly Parton from anybody. And damn if I could look like that and still wear those heels that 80 I think she's close to 80 you know, and if it's gonna go Holy moly, really look great. Right. And you know, we've been watching we watched that heartstrings that she had on Netflix not too long ago and have watched a couple of specials that she's had on. And, and I guess the part that I appreciate is in a world where we're faced with so many fake people are people faking it till they make it? She is just real and genuine and authentic and makes you feel even through the TV like you're her best friend right there in the room whether, yeah, exactly. And she'll tell you a lot of her his fate. Yeah, she'll say a lot of you a lot of mistake, but my heart isn't. Yeah. Yeah. So, I know, I know I'm one of the people that you've inspired. So tell me about some of the people that you hope to inspire and you know what what would you like your legacy to be? You know, years from now whenever people think of you, you know, a year 510 however many years from now when they think of you what is what are some things you want them to, to say are you hope that they have felt from you? Well, on a personal basis, you know, that I was a great mom and Grammy and, and a good and a great friend, you know. I hope that people see me as you know, being giving and, and and there to help whenever is necessary. But on a business level, I would love people to realize it's never too late to go out and start your own company. You know, when they when they started saying, you know, retire at 60 or 65, we were only living till 67 or 68. Right? Well, my mom is 91 years old. Wow, I had no intention of sitting on my tush for the next 30 years. You know, I mean, the thought is just repulsive. I need to be out and about doing stuff. So I'd really love to inspire people to say, you know what, I have this amazing idea and I'm going to start a company because you don't have to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. I went into no debt, no debt. I literally started my company in my home office with a laptop and my telephone. That's it, right? I didn't even have a printer when I started. Do now but you know, it's like you can start with with being something really small with this gig economy the way that it is, you can you can do a project by project type basis, do a good job, get a referral, right? And just build it that way. Right now, I would say 95% of my business comes from referrals. So, you know, I don't have to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of marketing and all that fun stuff. Seeing as though it's really not my thing to be in front of the camera, but I i will say I do love doing the podcasts and radio shows. I always have a face for radio, but but, you know, I like to just let people know, don't just because you're over 60 does not mean we need to, you know, crawl into a ball and say we're done. We still have another good chapter or two in our, in our book. Well, and we, it's whether you start a business, whether you start a nonprofit, whether you just start a group of friends that are hanging out together, get out and do stuff with people, engage with people, pay it forward, go to the schools and read the little kids. You know, there's so much that we could be doing. My husband's been working in the plumbing industry for 30 years, his body's starting to give out so he's starting to think about what are some ways he can reinvent himself? Cool. So let's, um, let's ask you this, out of the people that you're working with now, how have they inspired you to grow your business or shift your business? We talked a little bit about the niche market of what bad ad, you know, right? I know being a verb, you can say I'm a virtual assistant and everybody wants to go Okay, here's billing. Here's this. Here's that and yeah, but you said very specifically who you work with did Beth, help you do that or the clients that you started drawing in because of your personality and and what you were good at? Well, I knew that my niece was the speaking, you know, author industry because that's where my superpowers lie. And that's what I know. So I knew that that was my niche. I didn't know really that much about podcasting, but realized that that is the media of the future, and is growing leaps and bounds. And so I embraced that whole, you know, community and what an amazing community in the podcasting world is. But my, my offerings have changed. When I first started, I thought it was going to be the administrative, you know, all administrative kind of work. And I found that that's not necessary. What especially new authors were looking for. Now, I'm not a booking agent, I don't go and find, you know, paid speaking gigs as, as the only thing that I do, and if that's all that they want, I am now referring people to a couple of booking agents that I like, right? But, but my offerings have kind of changed. And what I've realized is that there are a great number of people who have been in corporate America for 20 or 25 years, who have a story and or a method of doing something that they want to now go into consulting and be a speaker and write their own book. And so I found that my mentoring in that area is really where I'm moving towards I have other women. And that's actually another aspect of what's important to me is I hire other women who have been marginalized, such as myself, who at 60 have amazing skill sets still to offer my clients. And yet, I also have a number of young moms who don't necessarily want to work a 40 hour week, because they want to be stay at home moms, but especially here in Los Angeles, you need that extra income to make ends meet. So that I have a number of young moms that helped me with the research and data entry and things along that line that honestly, I don't want to do anymore, right. But it gives them an income to help their family out. So that's like my back end mission within the company or who I hire and why I like I really try to take on those people that quote unquote, aren't hireable because they're not willing to put in the hours of corporate, you know, work that's necessary, that kind of thing. So, so that kind of what I'm about. Well, and I think it goes hand in hand with a lot of what I'm seeing in the women's marketplace for working nowadays. There's the our riveter, that makes the purses, it's the military spouses that make the purses and they know that military spouses get transported all the time. They get MCs to move, and it's hard to find a job and then because your spouse may be deployed, you've got to have a job that will be flexible with you being mom and dad to your kids while while your spouse is deployed. So they have a business model that they have components of their purses are put together and made by these male spouses and then they come back to the warehouse to be put together. And so and there's an virtual, another virtual assistant company out there that that engages male spouses to, to work for them as well. And then you've got more and more Abby, even, even our government here, then partly because of the corona virus has been testing out more and more people working from home doing it remotely. And, and so we got to stop thinking about, you know, butts and seats in the office and start thinking about how we can still be productive and make an impact for what we need to do. There are jobs out there. There are a lot of scam jobs out there big market of right now. But there are jobs, there's ways to serve people and there's a way to serve your own bottom line. If you're just willing to look forward, I know when we started my company several years ago, I started doing social media for companies and I worked with nonprofits and businesses and everything. But then whenever I got tired of doing the social media stuff, I'd say, you kind of evolved, you start working on what you what you really love, and you, you kind of evolve and you start realizing that that part while you It was fun, and it brought in money. It's not where you want to hang your hat now, because you've grown, you've evolved. And so I brought in another mom that had just had a baby. She kind of wanted to stay home with him for a while, got her trained up, and then she kept getting more and more training, and she rolled out into her own business, and great and even from there, she's now her child's in school, and she's gone on to work for a corporate company and this is what she's doing. It wasn't something that she went to school for. She took four years of college for did all this she had real hands on OJT to learn this skill test it be able to show what all she was able to accomplish on her own. And she never worked in an office she was home for her kids she worked everything around her kids schedule you know there were a few times she'd be on a conference call video call whatever and in the background her son's you know, coloring the wall with a marker or pouring cereal places that happens. Yes, she was there. I think you need to be realistic about whether you're capable of being a virtual person, right? Um, some aren't that great at and staying on task. If if you're the kind of you know, squirrel kind of person, that might not be the way to go. Believe it or not, I was actual a Virtual Employee back in 1991. Wow. Before there was such a thing, because I had been a recruiter and got married, had my kids and decided I wanted to stay at home. And, and my boss tracked me down after, like 10 years, and tracked me down and said, I just started this new company, I really want you to come on board. And I said, Well, okay, as long as I can do it from home, and he knew what I was capable of and said, okay, right. And I owe him so much because I was able to help support my family, and yet still could be the room mom, the Girl Scout leader and everything else like that. So it, you know, through the years, I understand and I know that I have the capability to stay totally focused and on task and, you know, not go down and turn on the TV or anything along that lines. It's like I am at work. And then I'm not right. Although I'm not as good as the and not Oh, I I literally last night, I got up and I did some, some tweets and stuff for a client at like 930 at night so that I could get it all loaded up. And, you know, make her happy. So, you know, it's like, I'm not that great at not staying at work, but but I'm working on that. Yeah, I totally get it my husband, you know, owning a plumbing business. It's a 24 seven on call for commercial emergencies. He works a lot. So when works, I try and work. And in that way when he's not working, we can actually go to dinner or we can go and do some of these other things. So I have set working hours during the day that take phone calls and do appointments. But if he's working outside of those normal working hours, I'll work so that maybe I don't have to have those. You know, if I've got free time with him, I can go to breakfast or I can go to lunch or dinner or we can go shopping for the kids. So my schedule looks a little hinky yet because it's not the norm of what everybody else sees. But, you know, it's it's also something that works for us. And it's, it's this is when we're, we're connected with people. This is when we're working with people. I had somebody messaged me last week. Hey, can we get on a call today? I'm like, Nope. Not today. You know, as I say, not today, Satan. But you know, yes, we can get on it. Call it just won't be today, it may be next week into next week before I can get on a call with you. And that's because I'm trying to be diligent of my time and not just block out the time for appointments and calls with people, but also block up the time to work on the projects can work on the tasks. And I think that's part of the discipline you're talking about of having the right mindset to do the job, you know, exactly. I know, I'm being pushed and challenged on writing, and I've blocked out my writing time for my books and, and I'm working on that and it's set up as an appointment. It's an appointment with myself in my laptop, and that's where I will be there. Yes. So no, no temptations. So we're about to take a break here in a couple of minutes. And when we do, it'll just be a quick short break. But when we come back, we're going to talk about some of the victories you've had. We've had, we may have touched on some of them, but we now There's women that are challenged with what life's facing them or what they're facing in life right now, or maybe they faced it years ago and they just haven't been able to get past something that keeps holding them back. And we like to hear those stories of victory from women that have kind of weathered the storms and come out on the other side. Just as a way to shine a spotlight into those dark splay spaces and let them know that we see them there. And you know, I may not be able to reach out to somebody and help them out of the dark space they're in but maybe you have the key that can unlock that dark space. So we're going to talk about that when we come back from this break. All right, we are back with Laurie and speak says we are talking more about her starting a business at the age of 60. We'll throw that out there. I hate telling women's age on the air but I love the story behind it. So That's That in itself, you know, people start talking about wanting to wind their business down at the age of 40 or 50 or 60 in your revenue up so, to me that sounds like a huge victory, but what are some other victories you've had in your life personally, professionally? You know, what are some of the I don't I don't want to assume that you just arrived and everything was perfect. Oh, gosh, no. Well, you know, it's interesting because Andrew, you know, I'm a big girl. And and so you know, life life in Los Angeles where everyone is a thinks they need to be a Barbie. I never really quite fit in. But and so hold on a second. I'm losing you. Are you Is everything okay? Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. It filter dummy. I so apologize, but Maybe it was God saying quit talking about being fat Laureen but you know, I mean, that was a hard road and I have some some major situations of being picked on. And I'll be honest with you, it took me until I was 50 to embrace the fact that this is the size that I am, this is the size that I am going to be. And I'm not going to change for anyone else. And I if I could teach the girls out there to love themselves. You know, so that they don't go through all the trials and tribulations of not thinking you're good enough. Because you're big is so, so important to me to get that message out. Love yourself the way that you are and and you'll find out that people will gravitate towards you because you become much more sure of yourself. unconfident and unfortunately, like I said, it took me to my 50s before I said, I'm done with this, you know, this is me Get over it. So, you know, that was that was part of my growing up and and maturing and you know, I guess another victory over the stuff when when bad things happen you know I went through a divorce and and and I still have yet to to remarry i mean you know there have been a couple of really nice men in my life but I I realized and here's something that I could do it myself that I didn't need a man to give me my worth, or to take care of me financially. I was capable doing it myself. Now, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to have a partner in life. But I realized I didn't need it. So I wasn't going to settle. Right? For someone that wasn't right for me. And I think too many of us women, you know, think that we have to have that man in our life. And and I say no at bros, embrace your powers yourself. Especially if it's a it's not a healthy relationship. So I guess those are really, I kind of have had a great life with you. I mean, I've been very lucky. So, you know, so and I'm the type of person that I have always looked at the glass half full, and I focus on the positives. And so that's what's really important when I went through the divorce My reaction was, okay. I don't want someone that doesn't want to be with me. Go Go. It's okay. But I have friends that to this day still can't stand my assessment. I let it go ages ago right ages ago. Let it go. If I can fix something, I fix it. I kind of tease sometimes I say I'm a guy with boobs. Because I am that type of person that if I, I want to fix it for you. I'm not one that just wants to listen and go all. Okay, I hear ya. Now I want to fix it. Right? I'm so much more like a guy in that way. But if I can't fix it, I let it go. And I won't. I won't sit there and and, you know, let it fester in my life. If there's nothing I can do about it. I don't have control. I let it go and I put it in God's hands. That's all good. Well, I think I think you touched on something there you know your your divorce, there may be people that are more devastated for you than you were actually devastated in the divorce. And a few years ago, I was doing a training down in San Antonio and we were having people do a life map. And on this life map, we had them put everything that was positive in their life above a line, write it on this big poster board, everything that they had encountered negatively in their life, they wrote below the line. And there were two women at the same table. And they both had divorce on there's one handed above the line, one headed below the line. The one that headed above the line said she had been set free from a very toxic relationship. The one the below the line was just totally devastated that her marriage had ended and basically her life had stalled out from that point in her life. And she just wasn't living and so It was beautiful watching that one that the divorce was freeing for her to be able to speak life and freedom into this other woman. And you know it their their experiences in the moment were very different. But the the ability to help that one that was stuck in the darkness come out of it was so beautiful to watch. And they spent weeks and months talking with each other and encouraging each other and empowering each other. Through that it was more one sided for a while. But then after that, while they they became really good friends and started doing some workshops for women that were going through divorce, and it said it in their work. Their theme was it doesn't matter how you're viewing your divorce, this workshop is for women to help you move on to the next chapter, you know, and it was it was a great thing that they did and and i don't know that they do those workshops. anymore but it was it was two polar opposite views of how one in one thing can impact a person. And exactly, you know, I know I've had this conversation with another friend of mine when I had my sexual assault, she had a sexual assault as well. Well, our reactions were two totally different reactions to it, you know, and, and, but it doesn't mean that we can't help somebody I can help somebody that had the opposite reaction I had she can help somebody that had the opposite reaction she had as we talk about it and open it up and peel back the layers of of what it all is but it goes back to more of what you you shared about loving yourself. You know, you have to do that first. Well, you know, there's this great gal Allison Donaghy, who is a podcaster. Her with Dominic No thinking, and she is all about taking yourself out of a victim state and into a freedom state. And part of that is just, you know, letting it go and understanding what your part in the situation was. You know, I mean, when I went through the divorce, and he cheated to get out, you know, but, you know, it was his fault, right? But no, there there, you know, there were things that after 15 years of marriage, you know, life got you know, we were all wrapped up and I was wrapped up in the kids with kids, kids. And and so, you know, I didn't probably give him the attention that he wanted. I will own that part. Right. Not that it was not this is doing right. But I will own that part, that maybe I was being the best wife either. And so, so I loved her framing of being able to get out of the victim state and into the freedom state because of the fact you can see where you own it, and then let it go. Right, right. And that's what we need to do is you need to just let it go. Let it go and move on. And I know that it's easier said than done. But, you know, and depending, especially depending on the situation, you know, an assault is is completely different than a divorce. Although it is and it isn't, if you think about it, right, because you can still be a victim either way, right? But, but it's like, move, you gotta let it go and move on. Because otherwise they're still having that control over you. Well, you know, I we when I left working at the church I was at before I started my business. We had this I worked in the business office, we had this thing that used to happen where there was stuff that was bought for our offices and they were bought specifically for our style or our look or or whatever the decor person that came in that decorated our offices decorated it towards our style. So when we left we had we normally had the option to ask to purchase or you know, because they would be redecorating it for the next person. So I went nice specifically asked for the chair that I had. It's kind of like the chair I'm sitting in today kind of an area on type chair. And it was very ergonomically correct. And I'd had the chair for five years it was kind of it had some issues with it, but it was molded to my but you know, to be honest, I liked that. I liked that chair. And my boss. I went to him and st if I could have the chair and he goes well as long as so and so approves that I have no problem with it. So it's getting close to the day that I'm leaving the company and everything and he comes back to me. He goes, if you're gonna get that chair I need, you know, we're getting your final paycheck and all that stuff lined out. I need to know what price you were told on it from, you know, whatever the facilities department was, and that asset I was told no. And the look on my boss's face because it was his boss that told me no, the look of my boss's face was just pure shock. Because in the five years I'd been there, nobody had told me no before. And he just looked at me and started and he goes, No, seriously, I'm like, I'm, I'm serious. Todd told me no, he's like, No, he didn't tell it's never told, you know. And, and for me, it was kind of like, Alright, now I have a right to be offended because I Even even Josh thinks it's wrong that I'm offended that that Todd told me now that he said no. And, you know, it wasn't a big offense. I'm using this kind of tongue in cheek because it's a funny story. I mean, Todd even came to me one day, I'm training my replacement, and I've got her staying there. And Todd comes running down the hall with this phone and he's got the old Groucho Marx song. It doesn't matter what you say how you phrase it, anyway, I'm against it. And he's playing that and I'm like, Pastor Todd, please meet my replacement. You know, I'm introducing Rosie's trash talking me it was a great moment. But this this business of mystery was kind of taking up an offense for me. I'm like, I don't know what the deal is. I'm not offended. It just shocked me and, and then that moment I went from dealing with my own shock to now I'm dealing with his feelings about this and you A lot of times when we tell somebody we're getting a divorce, or we've been fired, or, you know, we've been assaulted or whatever the tragic moment that comes up, we don't even get a chance to deal with our own emotions first and foremost, because we're constantly dealing with other people's emotions about what happened to us. So what I what I like is you keep saying, Let it go move on, you've got friends that were offended, but you're not letting them impact how you feel, or how your own you're feeling about yourself. Because you're like, it's done. It's over with I've moved on we say girl with long hair, because that's what we were called when we were in the military. I mean guy with long hair. That's what we were when we were in the military. We're just dudes with long hair. So you know, the not letting other people's thoughts come in and keep you stuck. Is it Something that I picked up in what you said you know those people can be offended and be mad at your ex and never want to speak to him again or, and that's fine. That's their feelings and their emotions. But you know, it doesn't disqualify you who you are what you were called to be how great you are and, and you know, it doesn't define anything else about you. It doesn't allow you to I tell people it's okay to park your boat there for a little bit but don't build a mansion around it. Oh, I like that. I like that. So I love that analogy. Yeah, if you need to go go to the gym, punch a couple of punching bags, do some kickboxing whatever, get it out of your system, and then move on. And in. Too often we're hearing that these people are parking their boats and building a mansion and and they've now got land attached to this. This thing that is become a problem in their life and You know, they'll never break the boundaries of that land because they're just, they're too hung up and what has happened to them that they can't see the rest of the world out there that's there for them at the moment and look at you, you're touching so many lives through the people that you serve. You know, every time one of those speakers you work with goes out and speaks or does a podcast or does whatever it is that they're doing. That's one of your touch points. Every time they're writing a book and putting a book out. That's one of your touch points. It may not be your voice, it may not be your thing, but you've touched it, and it's a an extension of what you've done and and all because you didn't sit back and go, Oh, well. He said I wasn't worth it. Or, you know, yeah, you're you're doing it or, you know, you say the face for radio jokingly and all that self deprecating thing, but you've got a voice that needs to be heard and needs to be shared and It doesn't matter what means it gets out there. It doesn't matter what you look like it needs to be heard. And you're not letting any of it stop you. So right, good job. Right. Thanks. Yeah, no, I think we need to embrace our own superpowers and embrace your worst. And, and unfortunately, it does take some of us longer than others. And I would love to see, you know, women, younger women having that confidence from the get go. And I think that's actually one of the things I'm probably most proud of is my daughter, who, up until about a year and a half ago was bigger than I still had the most self assured, amazing personality. You know, that just nothing stopped her. Right and Yet, you know, she was bigger than I. And I swear people are just getting mean more mean and more mean or meaner and meaner. I don't know, which is the correct way. But over the last year and a half though, she has lost 140 pounds. Wow. So wait, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, because she is so determined and so sure of herself, that when she finally made the decision, because she had had a couple kids and want to be there for them. Right, right. She made that decision and stuck to it. But, but it wasn't based on just the her luck. It was based on her health. So you know, just just having your own power is important. And you need to embrace that. Sounds like she's got some tenacity for my mama. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think so. I think We are we are very, we are very similar people. You know, we don't take a lot of stuff from people, right. I edited there too. But yeah, you know, we are, I have raised some real self assured women. And I have an amazing son, who also has a very self assured wife, who he supports and they support each other. I think, you know, as you say, what are some of the victories the victories are that all three of my kids are amazing adults who are happily married, and their spouses are amazing. And what more can I ask? They're happy, you know, and they, and they're giving me grandbabies. in Erie, we're done. I'm so upset. I'm not gonna have any more babies. Yeah, well, my, my two grandkids just turned six this week. So this weekend, so yeah, and I'm not called Grameen diva is my grandma name. So Oh, I love it. I love it. I love it. I love though. They, they definitely call me Davis. So I love that. But, um, so, in the middle of that, you know, what I love? What I kind of heard between the lines is, you know, your daughter with that transition and her outer appearance. You know, a lot of times people look at, you know, people that are overweight like myself, and they think that they're not strong that they're not self assured. Now we can walk in the room and prove them wrong, but first glance there, they're not gonna think that right off the bat. And so, one of the things that I've realized even through my my transformation of Losing weight, and still not near my goal weight yet, but in my transformation of losing weight is people do start looking at you differently. They do start thinking about you differently. And the thing is, is it's hard to explain that I never thought differently about myself. You just did. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And yet, it's, it's also important to as long as you're healthy, right, right. To to accept yourself. Right. And so, so that's, that, to me is very important. You know, one of the things that always irritated me is that fat slob seemed to go together, right? Well, you will never, ever see me out in public. not totally put together. Every You know, there is no And, you know, dressed appropriately. And, you know, it's just so I have that in and of myself is just like, you may call me fat. But you will never call me a slob. Right? Right? Because that's, that's fine. I'm a big girl, too bad. Get over it. This is me. At this point. If I lost weight, it'd just be hanging skin. So I don't really care. It's like, no way. It's like, I'm healthy. You know, I'm not on any meds. I'm all good. So. So it's like, move on. Let's get on to the business. And I think I come across with a level of confidence that most people don't really, you know, stop and think, well, I don't want to work with her. She's sad. Right? Right. Well, it has. What's important is our brain. Exactly in it and it's one of those. One of those comments somebody made the comment what was it about it? A year ago, there was an event A friend of mine was on and they had only seen her headshots and if you look at her headshots, you think she's fairly skinny. You know very always put together. All of that right? Well then they invited her because they listened to her on a podcast how great she was an invited or to speak at an event and then they were it was a health and wellness event that she was speaking at. And she's got these amazing clients all over the West Coast and she's ran several multi million dollar businesses and and all in the skincare business and Health and Wellness Business, but she's not the model size. She's not skinny. She's not what everybody puts in when she showed up at the event. They were offended because of her size. Nice started being ugly to her. And oh my gosh. And she was like, wait a minute you listen to my podcasts, you heard the wealth of information I have. And they're like, Yeah, but the way you're you talked about on your podcast and what you're dealing with, don't seem to match up and she goes, show me where and they couldn't show her where what she was saying didn't match up with what she had promoted. It just they had a instant flip in their head as to what they had envisioned and what they had hoped to see. And of course, every other person up there look like canon Barbie, you know? And yeah, I'm like, but this is real life. This is gonna get the people that you want to help to get to Ken and Barbie status or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, but well, and and I mean, she's being real. Oh, yeah, exactly. at that. Yeah. That's just ridiculous. really ridiculous. And, and, and hopefully she stuck to her, you know, her principal, and she told him she wouldn't. She told him she would not worry about speaking from their stage. So that day, she really didn't need to speak from their stage, she would just take her check and go home. Oh, good for her. And they're like, well, if you're not speaking, we don't want to, we're not gonna pay you and she goes, No, we have a contract. You can just pay me and I will leave that way. You don't have to be disgusted by my appearance, and they're like, we never used the word disgusted and she's like, but she did in a not so kind way, you know, she, she was very firm. She's a businesswoman. So she is very good and strong and confident because they weren't seeing her the way she saw herself. Mm hmm. And I think I think that's, that's something that we have to be mindful of. We may think That we're, you know, strong and powerful and mighty. But we also realize that maybe not everybody sees us the way we see ourselves. And sometimes we just have to remove ourselves from their presence because it'll never be realized. And sadly, but the other side can also be true. You could see a beautiful girl who you think has it all together? And she does not think at all highly of herself. Exactly. So, you know, it's like, so love thyself, right, right. Know thyself. Well, I think we're all in whether you're gorgeous or not gorgeous or fat or skinny, or purple or brown or whatever. You're all beautiful, because God made you that way. So well, the way I look at it, and I do Do you know, it's one of those things that you you look at it and you go, Okay, I have been at the place where I believe the things people said negatively about me more moreso than then I should have, but then I evolved and then I started realizing that as long as I keep harping on those negative things, I will never see the positive things. So then I started shifting my thought process and and there will still be days. I'll go in Angie Lee Monroe, what were you thinking in? And I give myself that talk or, you know, come on, girl, get it together. Yeah. My husband I were talking I've had a couple of low memory things here lately that I'm just like, Okay, what in the world is going on with me? And, you know, it may it starts to make you think, Okay, well, I'm just not got it together. I'm just not this. I'm just not that. But really what it is, is you're not taking time to put margin and to allow room to breathe. It's what it is. And so in doing that, I had To be hold myself a little more accountable to how much I was putting on my plate, how much I was expecting of others how much I was expecting of myself. And I'm just gonna lead into our next little segment because what I know about you is when it comes to helping people reach their professional goals, your great accountability partner, I mean, you are the way you phrase things as you phrase things to set people up for success. So you were working on a project for me last summer and you're like, Okay, I'm going to get this to you by such and such time. How much time do you need to review it so we could set up a call? It was so there wasn't just a deadline on you. There was a deadline on me as well. And, and many people seem to blur the line between politeness and accountability. So, you know, I've told the story before my friend that never really wanted to hold me accountable for working out The gym because she didn't want to be held accountable for working out in the gym. But when we were in the office space together, she was phenomenal at it. I've had people I've given permission to, to speak into my life and say, you know, hold me accountable for doing things on certain dates and times and be consistent. But then they don't because they know that I'm a strong individual person. And I know that I know I should be doing it. But just because I know I should go to the gym and eat healthy every day doesn't mean that I necessarily do. And I've given permission to somebody to speak into my life to hold me accountable in those areas. And they don't, because they're afraid it's not polite to speak into that. Then we have a problem. So yeah, well with Yeah, with my clients. It really is. That's what they've asked me to do. And I'm not only holding them accountable, but I'm making the business accountable. As I told you earlier, you know, mentoring has really been my passion. And I think my clients all know that if I call them on something, or if I tell them, you know, you really should think about this, you know, going forward, they know it comes from a place of love, and a place of trying to make them better. So, you know, I don't think I've ever really gotten, you know, negative negative with anyone. But, you know, I will, I will say, Wait, stop you, we need to look at this. Right. And I think they know that, that when I push back or when I hold them accountable, it's only for their own good. Yeah. And and, and that's one of the things that people don't realize is if you're asking somebody to hold you accountable, or you're holding somebody accountable, you've been given a treasure in that moment. You've been given insight you've been given authority you've been given You know, I get tickled at people going, Well, I just want to be an authority figure, I just want to have a voice into this area. And so, you know, I'll test out with people. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm gonna give you permission to challenge me in this area. And then they don't brilliant. And then they don't. And, I mean, the ones that do are awesome at it at all times, you know, and then I'll go, I'll kind of push back with them on in a joking way of, well, this was a test it was only a test. Like, no, not by, you know, I'll have some they'll go Nope, not buying it. If you you wouldn't have come up with that thought if you really didn't want to do it or, you know, so they'll, they'll push back and then there's the ones that, you know, you tell them to challenge you in an area and they just never hear from them again. Yeah, well, yeah. So you just say you sit there and you go, Okay, got it. Move on. right on to another accountability partner. I think we've all kind of been in now. masterminds and and, and what not nice still, to this day have a number of masterminds that I'm involved in, in an effort to learn more, and have myself grow as well as helping my other mastermind attendees. So, yeah, going forward. It's not only just the accountability function, but that have you thought about type function rail to give you another aspect that you may never have even looked at? And so I'm a big believer in the whole mastermind system. Well, whenever you're looking at your accountability partners, whether you're being the accountability partner, you're you're looking for somebody to be an accountability partner. And, you know, what are some of the boundaries that you look for? With accountability partners, do you set up phone calls? Do you set up appointments with them? What does having an accountability partner in your life look like? Yeah, well I have mentors which are those that are ahead of me in the business game that I tend to think that you know that we're such a virtual world. My meetings with them are usually zoom meetings. So that I get that one on one I can see what's landing and what's not. And or, you know, we can have a real you know, face to face. This is what's happening. What do I do now kind of thing? Because I will I'll be the first to admit, I don't know everything about everything. Amen. No, I am, I am. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. So I believe in listening to everyone and although there are times when I can be a bit of an intellectual snob and I really am trying to work on that I have learned in my life that I can learn from anybody. And we need to take people's feedback and live in it for a sec. And either Okay, I see where she's coming from, you know, and and go with it or not. Yeah. And just as I tell my clients, well, here's what I think you should do, but it is still your voice, your message, your social media, whatever, it's still up to you. So here's what I think. But, you know, it is still you that is out there. And it's your presence so well, I think Yeah, I'm in a number of masterminds. I think I have the I think I know the answer you're gonna give to this but I'm gonna ask it anyway because I think the question needs to be asked and answered in a more in your face way, but when you have people that come to you. And we'll just use me as an example, say I come to you. And I'm wanting you to hold me accountable in these areas. And I'm just not pulling my weight in that relationship. And but you can see so much more potential for me that I'm really giving towards the effort that I'm asking you to hold me accountable for. So my question to you is this. Do you keep pushing them and challenging them? Or do you find a way to basically tell them or tell yourself to let it go until they're ready to come to that realization? Oh, yeah, I'll have all sort of have a come to Jesus with them. But if they still aren't getting it, I'll say, you know what, I'm here whenever you're ready to level up or to scale your business or whatever it may be. I'm here when you're when you're ready, but I cannot Be the one that cares the most about getting you to the next level, right? it you have to have that burning desire, you know, to actually make it come to fruition, if you are not passionate and have that burning desire, it's not gonna work anyway. Right? Even if I have the burning desire, right, right, you have to have it. So, I usually, you know, I do let it go in a way that I let them know why. Because you don't seem to be ready. Now I just had something pop in my head, you know, and it's, it's a wondering question. So I'm just gonna put it out there for those that are listening and those that are listening either live or to the, to the recording. You know, I want to ask myself this question and then also, as the audience are those that let me figure out how we're going phrase that those that are asking for you to hold them accountable and are not giving back the full weight of what she is so so you so let's just say I expect more from Susie q out here than she's actually

Dr. Shannon Orr (Professor of Political Science whose research focuses on environmental policy, director of the Master of Public Administration Program at BGSU) and Dr. Tim Davis (Ryan Family Endowed Professor of Biology, member of the Lake Erie Research Center and the Environmental Protection Agency Subcommittee for Safe and Sustainable Water Resources) discuss algae blooms, water quality science, and policy in Lake Erie.       Transcript: Introduction: From Bowling Green State University and the Institute for the Study of Culture and Society, this is BG Ideas. Intro Song Lyrics: I'm going to show you this with a wonderful experiment. Jolie Sheffer: Welcome to the Big Ideas podcast, a collaboration between the Institute for the Study of Culture and Society and the School of Media and Communication at Bowling Green State University. I'm Dr. Jolie Sheffer, Associate Professor of English and American Culture Studies and the Director of ICS. Jolie Sheffer: Today I'm joined by two BGSU faculty members. Dr. Shannon Orr is a Professor of Political Science whose research focuses on environmental policy. She was recently recognized for her outstanding community involvement at the 2019 Faculty Excellence Awards, which lauded her for 100 service learning projects, among other activities. Dr. Orr is the director of the Master of Public Administration Program at BGSU. Jolie Sheffer: Dr. Tim Davis is a Ryan Family Endowed Professor of Biology, whose research focuses on algal blooms and aquatic ecosystems. He's a member of the Lake Erie Research Center and the Environmental Protection Agency Subcommittee for Safe and Sustainable Water Resources. Dr. Davis was recently honored in Washington DC for his work in the prevention of harmful algal blooms. Jolie Sheffer: Shannon and Tim, thanks for joining me. Dr. Tim Davis: Thank you. Dr. Shannon Orr: Thanks for having us. Jolie Sheffer: Tim, you've done substantial research regarding harmful algal blooms, especially around the Great Lakes region. How did you come to focus on that area in biology? Dr. Tim Davis: I mean honestly, it kind of started my senior year of undergrad. I was at Southampton College at Long Island University, and I went to the South Pacific with a research professor to do a winter term study abroad course, and even though you're supposed to have a project, I didn't have one. So I just started working with that faculty member, and he was working on algal blooms and we were doing some work with damselfish in Fiji and Solomon Islands. Dr. Tim Davis: So I started working with him, and then when I got back to a university, I joined his lab. Harmful algal blooms seemed to be a hot topic. Water quality is always something that's been a area that I think is really important, living and growing up either near the Atlantic Ocean or in the Great Lakes. I just kind of took off from there, and harmful algal bloom seemed to be popping up everywhere, and it presented a great opportunity to conduct meaningful science that would be applied to society. I thought this is a good way to spend the rest of my career. Jolie Sheffer: Shannon, your background is in environmental policy. How did you become interested in water issues in our region? Dr. Shannon Orr: Well, it was really because of the students when I first started teaching at BGSU. When I came here I had been working on climate change, and specifically looking at the United nations and the treaty negotiations that were going on around climate change. I was teaching in my very first semester, my very first class at BGSU, I was teaching an environmental policy class. I was using a lot of references to climate change. I had moved here from the Canadian Rockies, and so a lot of my examples were kind of Rocky Mountain based, Western Canada, Western US. Dr. Shannon Orr: And then the students started talking a lot about Asian carp, and they had so much passion for the issue and the concerns and threat of Asian carp as an invasive species posing a threat to the Great Lakes. So, I started reading about it based on their interest and then I got really captivated in it. Then I kind of caught their passion and then I started to become more involved in issues around kind of water quality, Great Lakes invasive species, from a social science perspective. Jolie Sheffer: So both of you are obviously doing important work on the Great Lakes and water quality. So, what does it mean? What are some of the particular issues that are maybe unique or distinctive in the Great Lakes compared to the South Pacific or the Rockies or other places. What do you think is distinctive about the issues locally? Do want to start us, Tim? Dr. Tim Davis: Sure, I can. Well I guess taking a step back, harmful algal blooms are not unique to the Great Lakes. They're happening pretty much on every continent except Antarctica, so they're a global issue that have regional implications. What's really kind of unique about this area is that we hold about one-fifth of the earth's available fresh surface water, and we rely on our surface water resources so heavily, especially for drinking water. That because of our actions in the watershed, we're impacting the water quality of the water that a lot of us are consuming. Right? Even in Bowling Green here, we drink water coming directly from the Maumee River that's obviously been treated. Dr. Tim Davis: So, when you look at the amount of fresh water, which is a finite resource, we need to take care of it, we need to protect it. The fact that we live in an area where we have to substantially treat our water even though there's such a ... It's not a quantity amount, it's a quality issue. To me, that's where it differs a bit from other areas where a lot of other areas are dealing with water quality and quantity issues. We don't have a quantity issue, especially right now. Our lakes are really high. We have a quality issue, and it's one that was self inflicted. Jolie Sheffer: Could you talk a little bit about what some of those causes are to our watershed problems? Dr. Tim Davis: Sure. So, the algal blooms in the lake are essentially the visual symptom of an unhealthy watershed, right? So when we look at our watershed, we essentially live in what was the Great Black Swamp. However, we've converted most of that area into agricultural land because it's very good agricultural soil. The problem there is that in order to farm, farmers routinely add fertilizer, nitrogen, phosphorus, to their land, and not all that gets taken up by the plants that they're growing, and if you don't apply it at the right time or there's a large rain, it can run off into our big river, especially the Maumee River and end up in our lake. Dr. Tim Davis: These algal blooms, they're essentially microscopic plants. They need sunlight, water, and nutrients to grow. Well, they have a lot of water, the sun's not going anywhere, and we're giving them an abundant of nutrients, so therefore we're going to see these blooms and they're going to continue to occur into the future unless we fix our watershed. If we fix our watershed, we'll fix our lake. Jolie Sheffer: Shannon, in terms of Asian carp, what are the particular conditions in the Great Lakes that are making this an issue here? Dr. Shannon Orr: So, building off of Tim's great answer just now about the science, now I turn and look at the politics and why can't we solve problems of water quality and why do we have these problems around Asian carp? So much of it is about competing interests. So, if we look at Asian carp in particular, Asian Carp are an invasive species that actually we brought to the US into Arkansas for treatment of aquaculture ponds. So one of the things about Asian carp is that they have a voracious appetite, so a great, clean, green alternative in the 1970s as an alternative to chemicals to clean these aquaculture ponds. When we brought them in, people said, "Well, they won't survive and thrive in the US, so it's fine, and they won't escape," but nobody told the carp that. So some epic flooding happened, the carp swam out of their aquaculture ponds, entered the water systems, and they've been slowly moving ever since closer and closer to the Great Lakes, and so now they're just a couple of miles away from entering Lake Michigan. Dr. Shannon Orr: The reason why it's so hard to stop it, it seems kind of easy and people say, "Well, why don't we eat them? Why don't we catch them?" It's a little bit more complicated than that, which we can go into later, but one of the biggest issues is that we have all these competing interests around water. So, we have farmers, we have the fishing industry, we have the barge industry, which is really dependent on using the lock system to transport goods. So then we have economic interests, particularly in the Chicago region. Even just here in Lake Erie and looking at the water quality issues that Tim was just talking about, we have farmers, we have homeowners, and then at the same time we also have competing political jurisdictions. Dr. Shannon Orr: So we're talking about the Great Lakes. So we're talking about the United States and we're talking about Canada. We're talking about multiple states and we're talking about the province of Ontario. We're also talking about counties and cities and tribal communities, and all of these different political jurisdictions have different ideas, different solutions, different ways of making decisions, so trying to solve our problems are really challenging in the Great Lakes region. Jolie Sheffer: Could you talk a little more, Shannon, about kind of what some of the approaches are to solving the Asian carp problem? Dr. Shannon Orr: Sure. So, there's lots of ideas out there about trying to solve the Asian carp problem, and technology is often cited as kind of an option. The big extreme option that is being proposed and seriously looked at is actually creating a wall. So we put up a wall and we stop the carp from being able to enter into the Great Lakes. So, very expensive proposition. It's about a 20 year timeline according to the Army Corps of Engineers. It would work, but the barge industry is against it because we have a billion dollars worth of goods transported along those water systems, so putting up a wall eliminates the barge industry and create some major problems for the shipping industry about how do we get the goods from one side of the wall over to the other. Dr. Shannon Orr: There are some technological options for that are being proposed, but they're all very expensive and have very long timelines, and the carp aren't that far away. Some people have proposed fishing and eating them, for example. I actually got to go Asian carp fishing, hunting actually, with a bow and arrow, which was pretty fun, but there's so many carp and they're actually pretty hard to catch on a large scale. There is a very government subsidized fishing industry for carp. Illinois has put in a lot of money to support the fishing industry, specifically for carp, and the processing industry. So, what do you do with all the carp once you catch them? So, one of the proposals has always been, "Well, you know what humans are really good at is eating things into extinction, and so why don't we do that with carp?" Dr. Shannon Orr: One of the problems when we think about a North American diet is that when we tend to eat fish, we tend to eat it as a filet, so we like a nice fish filet on a plate that you cut with a knife and fork. In Asia fish is often served as fish balls, fish cakes, fish that's flaked, and then served that way. The problem with Asian carp is it's really, really bony, and so people describe it as a very mild tasting fish, but in order to actually cut out a filet, there was a restaurant in Chicago that tried to do it. They're like, "We're going to eat the fish. The carp, we're going to make people like it." They realized that by the time they cut out a filet, they would have had to serve it at the price of a lobster, and who's going to pay lobster prices for kind of a mild white fish that's called carp, which we don't think of as a very good eating fish. So, the eating solution is a little bit challenging. Dr. Shannon Orr: There is an industry that's sending the carp back to Asia, kind of irony, because they're promoted as a clean fish, not a lot of pollution, a safe a healthy alternative. It's also being turned into fertilizer. There's pet food. My parent's dog is a huge fan of the Asian carp treats. Dr. Shannon Orr: So, those are some of the kind of the major solutions that are being proposed. Right now we have electric barriers that are in place that kind of, when the fish swim up to the barriers, they get kind of a tingle. It doesn't kill them. They get the sensation from the barrier which repels them so they turn away. It's not a perfect solution, and there are concerns that perhaps fish have gone through, that metal bottom boats disrupt the current so then fish could swim under a boat as it moves through the barriers. So those are some of the solutions, but there's no consensus yet about how to actually stop the carp. Jolie Sheffer: Tim, what are some of the solutions being investigated for the algal bloom issue? What are some of the approaches that you're studying? Dr. Shannon Orr: Sure. So what I always start out by saying is that there's no in lake solution. We have blooms that have these surface scums. Those big green surface scums that look like paint being spilled on top of the water, and they can be over 700 square kilometers, so they're huge. Four times the size of the district of Columbia. So really, really big events. There's nothing we can do in the lake. Once the blooms are formed, they're there, and there's nothing we can sprinkle on the lake. What we need to do is folks in the watershed, and that's difficult. Because we have to work with our agricultural community, and not that they're difficult to work with, but a lot of farmers work on razor thin margins, so there's just not a lot of money. A lot of the solutions, we talk about for R's, right place, right time, right depth, and right amount for fertilization on fields, and yo that's a good solution but a lot of the technology to get there is expensive. Dr. Shannon Orr: Governor DeWine just introduced the H2Ohio Initiative, which is a really great piece of ... it's a good bill because it provides $170 million dollars up front, and if we are able to get another round, if it's refunded again for five years, in total it's about $900 million in financial resources coming in to solve this problem. But we need to figure out one, how to use less fertilizer on farms, which there's about a third of the farmers that are always doing pretty much everything they can. There's a third of the farmers that would if they were incentivized to do so, and then of course there's a third that just are kind of stuck in their ways and are kind of recalcitrant to change. Dr. Shannon Orr: We really need to work on reducing the amount of runoff and reducing the amount of nutrients in that runoff, and that's going to be particularly challenging because climate change is going to make that more challenging. So, climate change is going to impact precipitation patterns. Right now, this past spring is a great example. We had a lot of rain over extended period of time and there was a lot of farm land that didn't get planted. So even though we had a lot of rain, we had a lot of runoff, and this was the fifth biggest bloom in recorded history. The amount of phosphorus that came in was about 30% less than what it would have been if all fields had gotten planted and fertilized. Dr. Shannon Orr: So, changing precipitation patterns is going to change farming practices, and climate change is going to continually impact our ability to fight the nutrient overload coming into the lake, and it's only going to get more difficult so we need to act quickly and aggressively. Dr. Shannon Orr: Again, it's a political issue. It really is. Farmers don't want to get regulated. There's a lot of folks that are worried about that we're going to turn into the nest next Chesapeake Bay, where there's a lot of regulations. So, we have a lot of scientists both at BGSU and across state of Ohio who are working with the agriculture community to implement new strategies, implement different ways of farming or just bringing back cover crops, for example. Winter cover crops can help stabilize soil, stabilize nutrients, reduce runoff. Dr. Shannon Orr: We have a lot more large animal farming operations. We call them CAFOs. It's consolidated animal feeding operations, and there's a lot of manure that is associated with that. So then what do you do with all that manure? Because manure is expensive to transport. Because a lot of it, manure is like 97% water. So if you can get rid of the water, you can transport that manure. It still has the nutrients, but that's expensive. So we're working on technologies to try to solve that issue. Jolie Sheffer: Tim, you're a member of the EPA Board of Scientific Counselors and part of the Safe and Sustainable Water Resources Subcommittee. How have you applied what you've learned in this position to your work as a Lake Erie center researcher and your work at BGSU? How are they informing each other? Dr. Tim Davis: I would say a lot of what I've learned through my research at BGSU has helped me more inform and advise EPA on their larger national policies, their national goals for their water research. So EPA is not just a regulatory agency, they also have research. What are their national goals going to be? What are their overarching goals going to be? So we take the expertise that we've built up through my work at BGSU and help them kind of define what their goals are for the next three years. Dr. Tim Davis: But then we can also kind of take what we know is important to EPA and then apply it when we're trying to apply for grants or assisting other colleagues in what's important to EPA, because we help advise them on ... They give us topics what they think are important. We help clarify and better define what their research is going to be, so we know what's important to them. And if we know it's important to them, we can write grants that BGSU researchers can help them do their work better, and it also helps BGSU and our research portfolio and individual faculty members. But it's really that that give and take. So we can take the knowledge that we've gained through our research here and help them, and then take the information and what we know is important to EPA and be able to apply it in our grant writing. Dr. Tim Davis: That helps us, quite frankly, maintain our research labs and, and help get students involved in research, which is something that we're all very passionate about. Jolie Sheffer: Shannon, you do a lot of work with students in your role with the Master's of Public Administration program. Can you talk a bit about how your students are connecting some of these policy issues with partners in the community? Dr. Shannon Orr: Oh yeah. That's a really part of our Master's of Public Administration program and the classes that I teach. A lot of it is that I want to give students the opportunity to make a difference. Our tagline for our MPA program is Education for Public Service. I also want students to understand that as individuals, they have a lot of power, and I want them to care about things and be engaged in their communities. Regardless of what careers they go off and pursue, that they can go out and do really great things and make a difference, and do impact studies and evaluations or strategic plans and help to make our communities better and stronger. One of the things that I really emphasize a lot in my classes is the idea of stakeholder collaboration, and really sitting down and listening to different perspectives, different ideas, bringing together different actors that so many of our decisions have to be made from that lens. That it can't just be people working in isolation or groups combatively arguing and yelling about solutions and decisions and the future. Dr. Shannon Orr: Aristotle defined politics as the search for the good life, and so that's kind of why I'm a political scientist, because I love that idea. People have different ideas about what the good life is. People have different ideas about what a Great Lakes should be, and so I really want my students to embrace the idea of listening to all of the different stakeholders involved in these issues and finding ways to come together and to create solutions and make meaningful, positive impact. Jolie Sheffer: We're going to take a short break. Thanks for listening to the Big Ideas podcast. Introduction: If you are passionate about Big Ideas, consider sponsoring this program. To have your name or organization mentioned here please contact us at ics@bgsu.edu. Jolie Sheffer: You're listening to the Big Ideas podcast. I'm here talking with professors Tim Davis and Shannon Orr. I'd like to ask next about some of the particular projects that each of you have on. So Tim, you're a part of a team at BGSU that received funding in October for a project titled Monitoring and Event Response for Harmful Algal Blooms. What are you learning from that project, and how are you hoping that that will directly be applied to solving some of these problems? Dr. Tim Davis: I'm really excited about this recent award from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, NOAA. This is a three year proposal or grant that we are taking technology. So, this is technology that allows us to measure these algal toxins. So, the toxins that caused the Toledo water crisis in 2014, it allows us to take these units out into the field. These portable rapid toxin detection devices, take them out in the field and measure toxins right in the field. These units that we're going to be using are about the size of a tissue box, about the size of a Kleenex box, and we have these cartridges that help us quantify the amount of toxin in a sample. What's really fantastic about that is that we're linking this advanced technology that's easy to use and rapid with citizen science, or community engaged science. Dr. Tim Davis: So we're working with water treatment managers, we're working with beach managers, we're working with the phytoplankton monitoring network, which is a volunteer network that's run through NOAA, and we are working with charter boat captains that are out on the lake every day. We're distributing these units to all of our partners, all of our community partners, and they're going to be out on the lake and they're going to take a sample. We're going to teach them how to do this, of course, and they're going to extract the toxins from the sample, then they're going to analyze it. Then they can go to their mobile phone, we're developing an app where they can open our app, it'll download their coordinates of where they are on the lake, and they can upload their data, which gets put into a central server. Dr. Tim Davis: So as scientists, we know that partnering with community stakeholders who really want to be part of the solution is a great way to expand our research. Because there's no way we can ever have enough students to do everything we want to do, but we definitely have enough stakeholders. So by partnering with them, we are going to be able to track the toxicity, or the toxin contraction of the bloom, in ways that we've never been able to do before, and that's really exciting. Dr. Tim Davis: So we're combining this new technology with citizen science, and hopefully be able to build a better picture of how the bloom is changing in its toxicity over time, over the course of a bloom season, which will then help us to better be able to predict when the bloom is going to be most toxic, least toxic, and that's really important for water managers. Because right now we can predict where it is, we can predict where it's going, we can even predict how big it's going to be on a seasonal scale, but we can't predict toxicity, and that's the one thing that we really need to improve on, and this work and partnering with citizen scientists is going to help us do that. Jolie Sheffer: Could you talk about that project in terms of its interdisciplinary scope? Because it sounds like you're not just talking about working with biologists, but there's also computer science. Talk about the scope of the project from a disciplinary perspective. Dr. Tim Davis: Yeah, absolutely. So, all of the work that we do is cross disciplinary. We have chemists, we have biologists, we have engineers who had to design this technology, and then of course, we have the computer scientist. So we're seeing this interdisciplinary work become more and more prevalent in our field, and quite frankly, it's allowing us to do work better than we have when we were working in silos. When we were just working with biologists or chemists. We were able to make gains. There's a lot of work that was done that was fundamental, and we build off of all of that previous research, but by combining these groups, not only are we able to do more, but we can now take these big data sets and actually analyze them in ways that we couldn't previously. That's really important, because scientists, we always get dinged for saying, "We need more data," but really we have a lot of data, it's how do we analyze all that data now? Dr. Tim Davis: So gathering data, we have been gathering data for years. Analyzing all those data to understand longterm and big trends, that's where the biological sciences is kind of really exploding, and it's an exciting time to be part of this work. Jolie Sheffer: How does interdisciplinarity function in the work that you're doing, Shannon? Because, you are also kind of really connecting different disciplines. Dr. Shannon Orr: Yeah, and so my work on Asian Carp, which is a book manuscript that I just finished, really draws on the work of biologists and the work of political scientists, but also the work of economists and sociologists, so I'm kind of bridging all of those disciplines to really look at the issue from what we would call a policy analysis perspective. So, I'm not trying to kind of advocate for any particular solution, it's to lay out kind of the complications and the political jurisdictions, the competing interests involved in the issue that really make it so hard to solve. Dr. Shannon Orr: So I'm not sure the book is kind of like, it's not really uplifting, because [inaudible 00:26:03] I think the end of it is, that it's just really hard, but what I hope is that people can see that the richness and the depth that comes by pulling in interdisciplinary approaches and understandings of an issue like an invasive species. I was doing an early interview when I was first starting to think about this project, and doing it as more than just something that I was adding to a class, and I had a biologist say, "Well, why would a political scientist write a book about Asian carp?" And so I said, "Well, it's all about kind of the decision making and the economics and the different interests in the barge industry versus the environmentalist's," and then he said, "Oh yeah. No, I get it. Like that really, really makes sense." Jolie Sheffer: What are some of the lessons that scientists, policymakers and others have learned from past mistakes in water conservation, and how are some of those lessons learned guiding current research and policy? Dr. Tim Davis: What we're learning now, what we've taken away from the success that we had in the late 70s into the 80s, and then the subsequent kind of failure is that one, we know that we can clean up Lake Erie. We know that it's possible to bring Lake Erie back to a spot, maybe not where it was pre-industrial revolution, but at least back to a state that doesn't have these annual algal blooms that are so large and toxic and disruptive to the environment and to the economy. We realize that one, it's going to take long term monitoring, so we are going to have to, once these policies get put in place, once we have these remedial actions that are put in place, we need to continue to monitor to make sure that what we're doing on the land is actually getting translated to results in the lake. Dr. Tim Davis: Even after we hopefully achieve those results, we're going to have to continue to keep our eye on the lake to make sure that things don't sneak back up on us the way that they did. So, we've learned a lot. We learned a lot from our failures. Sometimes we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes. But I would say we have a much better idea now of what we need to do. Sometimes the problem comes in more of the political arena where we're in this for a career. Hopefully we have this solved before the end of my career. That would be ideal. But the politicians, it's a two or four year cycle, so sometimes priorities change. So it's continuing to say, "Hey, we've cleaned this up. We've made progress. There are other issues that are always going to come up and that need attention, but it doesn't mean that we take our eye off of the issue that we used to have just because we're not having it anymore, because that's what we did in the past and it crept back up on us." Jolie Sheffer: What about for you, Shannon? Dr. Shannon Orr: I think I would say three things. I think the first one would be, as Tim said, the importance of monitoring and evaluation, and particularly looking at how government policies come into place. That's not the end of the story. So now we need to look at longer time horizons and we need to see how, as Tim was saying, has the lakes changed, but we also have to be open to the idea of making mistakes. That perhaps we've made mistakes. Dr. Shannon Orr: That would be my second point, would be learning from arrogance. I think the carp is a good example about that, right? So we bring in the carp and then we say, "Oh, well they're not going to escape," and then they, in fact, do. I think a lot of the mistakes have been made because of a failure to think about longterm thinking, so that would be my third reason what we need to learn from our past mistakes. Dr. Shannon Orr: It's very hard for politicians to be able to say, "I stopped Asian carp from coming in 20 years," because they need to be reelected now. One of the things in political science we say is that politicians are motivated primarily by two things, which is claiming credit and avoiding blame, and it's hard to get a lot of credit for doing things like not letting a species invade the Great Lakes. Because it didn't happen, nobody knows what efforts it took to stop it. So I think keeping those in mind about those three things, I think. Jolie Sheffer: Both of you have mentioned, in different ways, the role of students and ordinary people in both creating these problems and also solving them. For each of you, what would you say are some of the things that local citizens can do to help with some of these water issues in the region? Shannon? Dr. Shannon Orr: I would say to be educated and to read about them, because, I mean, this impacts our daily life, right? I always tell my students there's no alternative to water. We need it for cleaning, we need it for drinking, we need it for cooking. So learning about, do you know where your water comes from? Right? Thinking about water treatment systems. Thinking about the issues that are facing the Great Lakes. We live in 2019, it's not hard to do a Google search using good sources, so I encourage people to stay informed, and if you're upset, to call your local representatives. Because they need your vote, they will listen if you call. Now they may not always agree with you, but it's that public record of individuals in the community, interest groups, whatnot, everybody standing up and making their voice heard, and there are ways in which you can do that. You can just pick up the phone and call a representative. You can send them an email. You can attend a public forum. You can vote. Dr. Shannon Orr: I mean, all of those things really make a difference. I think they are things that, yes, we're busy, you've got to get your kids to dance, and make dinner and go to work and do all of that kind of stuff, but a little bit of action can make a big difference. And because water is such at the heart of our lives and particularly here in the Great Lakes Basin, it's about more than just drinking and cooking and cleaning, it's also about livelihoods and economic development and the wellbeing of this region. Jolie Sheffer: What about for you, Tim? What would you recommend for citizens who want to do something? Dr. Tim Davis: There was a study that I saw, at least a slide from a presentation, where they polled Democrats, Republicans, Independents, what their top three priorities were. Number one was always the economy, but regardless of whether they're Democrat, Republican, or Independent, in this region the second was health of the Great Lakes. So as Shannon said, politicians listen. They don't always listen to scientists, sometimes they don't always listen to their constituents, but if you have enough of them, a lot of them know it doesn't matter what side of the coin they're on, they're not going to get elected if the Great Lakes aren't in their platform somewhere and health of the Great Lakes. Dr. Tim Davis: But if you want to get involved, there are many ways to get involved. Whether it's trying to join one of these phytoplankton monitoring networks or any other environmental group, best thing you can do, I'm just going to agree with Shannon on the too, is just educate yourself, because there's nothing worse than someone who's kind of half educated making statements that they think are fully informed. Right? So fully inform yourself, because there are no enemies in this solution. It's not a blue versus red, it's not urban versus rural. We are all in this region. We all live here, we all drink the same water, we all use the same resources. Jolie Sheffer: We have some students who'd like to ask you a few questions. Courtney Keeney: I'm Courtney Keeney, and I am a graduate student in the NPA program. I was just wondering if you could both talk more about the best ways to communicate with each other, especially with contentious issues. This one with Lake Erie, but also other issues in general. Dr. Shannon Orr: It's always hard when you have people on different sides and you're trying to bring together passionate environmentalists and farmers who it's their livelihood and they're just trying to provide for their families, and to bring together really different interests together. I think one of the most important things to do is to create forums in which people feel comfortable sharing their views. Not creating hostile situations where people yell at each other, but trying to find the things that truly are in common. Dr. Shannon Orr: No one wants to drink contaminated water, right? Nobody wants the lakes to have algae problems. I mean, we all agree on that, right? So if we can start from some of those. And at the same time, we all need to eat food, so we need the farmers, we need healthy lakes. So, starting from those bases, instead of saying, "Well, one interest is evil or the other one is." That doesn't get to anywhere, right? I think creating mechanisms to bring together people who are willing to actually discuss and engage in the issues in kind of respectful ways where we really truly listen, and people are willing to be open minded and perhaps change their minds on either side. I know that's hard, and in 2019 it's very easy to be very isolated and to kind of only connect with people who share the same views and perspectives that you do. But to be challenged and to really listen and to see what we all have in common, which are clean water and healthy food. Jolie Sheffer: Do you have any recommendations perhaps, for young scientists and how to their knowledge and their priorities in ways that the nonscientific community can be more responsive to? Dr. Tim Davis: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest gaps that we have currently is that as scientists, we don't communicate our science well, because part of it is how we have been trained, right? We're trained to write scientifically. We're trained to present scientifically. We're working on developing science communication courses so you can take science and drill it down. We don't say dumb it down because people aren't stupid. You need to be able to package it in a way that you can communicate it to people that may not have taken a science course since they graduated high school, because their occupation doesn't require it. Dr. Tim Davis: It's practice. Everyone has friends who aren't in the sciences. Talk to your friends about what you do and if they don't understand you, keep talking to them until you figure out a way to get across your research in a way that they can understand and appreciate. Because we always say if people don't appreciate what we're doing, if they don't understand it, they're not going to care about it, and they're just going to write it off. Dr. Tim Davis: We can't be seen as just being in our ivory towers. For decades scientists, especially in academia, we are sitting in these ivory towers and we just look down and say, "Well, this is what science says, therefore that this is what you have to do," and a lot of it is somewhat in comprehensible. Even some of the science that goes on, I don't fully understand. So, practicing talking to people, getting people to care about our science, because we need them to care about what we're doing and see how it's actually going to be positively impacting the Great Lakes. Because if they understand and care, they're going to be more passionate about finding these solutions. Dr. Tim Davis: I would say also to young scientists, just listen. We are in an age now where it's so easy to voice your opinion on so many different platforms, and sometimes everyone has an opinion and maybe not everyone should have an opinion. We're all guilty to some degree of that, and I think the best thing that we can say is just listen. There's a lot of knowledge out there where you can not just inform, because again, in the way that we teach science, A is you get nothing wrong. Sometimes I feel like we're training these robotic know-it-alls. It's okay to be wrong and it's okay not to know something, and it's okay to listen and continue to learn. If we can do that, that's great. I've learned so much from my friends in the agricultural community that I didn't know before, and it's made me a better scientist and it helps inform the work that I do. Jolie Sheffer: Tim and Shannon, thank you so much for talking with me today. For more information on the water quality of Lake Erie, please visit the Ohio Department of Natural Resource's webpage on conditions. You can visit that at coastal.ohiodnr.gov/howslakeerie. Jolie Sheffer: You can the Big Ideas podcast on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcasts. Our producers for this podcast are Chris Cavera, Marco Mendoza. Research assistance for this podcast was provided by ICS Intern Emma Vallandingham, and editing was provided by Stevie Scheurich. This conversation was recorded by AC Luffel in the Stanton Audio Recording Studio in the Michael and Sara Kuhlin Center at Bowling Green State University.  

All right. Welcome back to mindset radio. I'm your host Jeff Banman. And today I have begged, pleaded, convinced, guilt, tripped and otherwise, and probably now responsible for dinners and drinks for the rest of my life. Uh, but our guest today is the man, the myth, the legend, Jordan harbinger, and more, more myth, I think. I know. Don't beat yourself up. That's not allowed. Uh, you've done an exceptional job. I love listening to your show. Believe it or not, not everybody knows who you are, which is unfortunate. I've run across people all the time and I'm like, Hey, I finally convinced Jordan to come on the show. And they're like, who? And I know that's hard to believe...it's easy for me to believe, man. My, I have an infant son who doesn't give a crap who I am. Right? And he never will. I think. Isn't that how it is with kids?No, I, I don't know. Cause here's the funny thing with even with a little man this morning, right? So just turned two in November and we were getting ready to go for a walk, do whatever. And I turned around and I cross my arms, he looked right at me and just crossed his arms. Exactly. It's a big grin on his face. So that'll start, it'll start to come eventually.I gotta tell you this, uh, I've got, I interview a lot of people for the Jordan harbinger show as you know, cause you, you do listen to the show and thank you for that. And I've got, you know, acquaintances, I should say buddies, whatever that are like well known household names across at least America. And they're like, yeah, you know, I thought when I have kids I'm gonna finally be the cool dad because you know, super famous, super rich person that everyone, you know, cow toes to walk into a restaurant, never wait for a table, never pay for stuff half the time. And he's like, no, my kids are still like, can you drop me off at the corner? I don't want people to see that I'm with you. And like, and some of it's for different reasons. Like, you know, most of us, we're just going to be too nerdy to hang out with the kids.And for him, maybe it's like half nerdy half. They don't want their friends asking questions for their dads or something like that. Like you're dead if during that one time or that one movie. But still, it's kind of like no matter how cool like you can be on, we literally had this conversation on their yachts and they're like, yeah, well, and I'm like, I'm on your yacht watching the NBA playoffs on a big screen TV that comes up from like the mahogany whatever. And your kids are like, dude sucks. You know, like it's you just, you can't,no, never, ever. You can't man. I mean it's, you know, I've got the spectrums. Like we were talking about 15 and a half. She splits a year with me. So I spent my 45th birthday standing in line at the DMV to get her learner's permit. I'm excited though. So I mean, and you know it, it's coming back around. That's what I'm watching. They kind of, especially with the girls, you know, my oldest now coming closer to 16, we have a whole different relationship and it's very cool to kind of see that come around. Like she's excited to do stuff with me. Um, so it does, it ebbs and flows, but yeah, dude, it doesn't matter who you are. You could be the coolest cat on the face of the planet. Your kids going to still be like, alright, leave me alone. I think that's the way it goes.Yup. Exactly. So I, he's five months old. I got a few more years.A bit of time, man. You got a little bit yeah, that that first, uh, that first year and a half. You're just like you are, I have no idea who I am.Right? Yeah. I would say common. Common advice I've been given is the first 10 years they'll think I'm cool and then the next 10 years they won't. And then like in their twenties, it's kind of 50, 50, and then after age 30, again, they realize I'm not a total dumb ass and I actually have something to say. I put my own experience with my own parents, like my parents are awesome. My parents don't know anything. Oh, turns out all that stuff that I thought I knew better than I was only half. Right. Okay, fine. I was 10% right, but I'm still going to count it because I can never let them have this one. And now that I'm 40, I'm like, Oh, time is limited, you know, just enjoy it. But I don't want to waste your listeners time with reminiscing orI think it's, you know, it's all relevant and it's all things that we, uh, deal with. You know, it's like when I had Phil McKernan on and, uh, even Sherry walling and some people, you know, uh, you know, we talked about the family issue several times, especially in our community. It's like, how do I go from being fireman, a cop, you know, quote unquote hero, which I hate that term. Um, you know, but, and then step in and be a dad and be like a normal dad or a normal mom, you know? Uh, it's tough.Why do you hate that term? I think a lot of people your position, they hate that. I mean I, my dad loves his hobby is like paying for policemen's meals at restaurants, which by the way I think is not allowed in most places, but indeed in Detroit they're like, thanks. Yeah, they're hot dog, but out here in California they're like, I cannot do that. Please do not do that. I have to fill out paperwork when you do that. So, but he loves it. And, and uh, it's funny cause I think a lot of people look at servicemen, firemen, cops, et cetera as heroes. But yeah, I guess I guess it's probably uncomfortable hearing it to your face. I would, I don't know how I'd feel. It's hard to say thatit's caused a lot of conflict. It's interesting because Phil Phillip has asked me to give my one last talk in February here in Boulder. Um, and it's brought up a lot of stuff. And some of that is what you know, we're dealing with now is like, really now you've done this, you've done a lot of work on yourself, you've done a lot of different, you know, aspects. But I think for me it's like I don't, that's not, it's not why I did what I did. It's, I, I didn't do it for any of that and I'm not, you know, I think part of the thing, it's like I laid in bed and like, I want your house to burn down because I want something to go do. I want to like, I want war and conflict because I want to fulfill my destiny, my job. How does that, you know, mentally conflict with and emotionally conflict with you? Saying thank for, thank you for my service or you know, Hey, I think you're a hero. No, dude, I'm actually not because it's not how it works inside. Uh,that's, that's funny if, yeah, I think if people knew that firemen got accepted, wow, look at this big ass house burning down, man, there's, this one was really expensive. This is going to be a fun one. Then probably public perception change.Well, I mean, in, it's in for me, you know, old school, you got to think, you know, I started back in the early nineties and then when I, it's like when I came back from Kosovo in 99 nobody knew what the hell was going on. Nobody knew the services invaded and committed mass atrocities in this country and the things that we dealt with, you know, it was just, it was a blank. Right? I mean, it was, it's interesting to me pre nine 11 post nine 11 you know, when nobody gives a shit that I was a fireman. The only people that cared that I was a firefighter was the, you know, seven year old kids coming in to check out the fire truck. Nobody, you know, you didn't walk down the street. Rarely did anybody offer to buy your meal for ya on occasion. But it was super limited and nobody was walking around saying, Hey, thank you for your service. You know, pre nine 11 it just wasn't existing. And now it's in your face always. You know, and, and I, I, I get it, you know, Mike Brown and I talked about this the other day. It's, he's got a buddy that always responds with thank you for your support when they say that and then they get a little awkward because it's like, wait a minute, did I, do I support the war? Do I, do I agree with that? So it kind of is a throwback to them, uh, in a kind way, if you will.Yeah. And, and, uh, look, I think people now more than ever appreciate it just because it is in the media a lot, but I understand how the, to bring this back to value for your listeners, I understand how your self image doing whatever you do might not match what the public sees and that can actually cause some discomfort and have that not because I do anything particularly heroic, let's be clear. But people will say things like, Oh, I'll get a video from a friend. And they're like, I met the mall and the person in line in front of me at this restaurant is listening to your show. So I started talking to them and they were like amazed that I knew you. And so I'm sending a video with this random like Chinese woman in line for dumplings. She is really excited and sort of getting all like, you know, Oh my gosh, she's Jordan harbinger.I'm all excited and that makes me uncomfortable. Not because I don't enjoy it. I think it's awesome. And I think most kids up til age, whatever 30 I probably like if only that would ever happen to me, just one time in my life. But when it actually happens it can be highly uncomfortable because people get so excited and there's a part of me that's like I can never live up to that. Like I can never live up to that. And we see our own blooper reel in our head because we, they got like tripped over his own foot last night cause he stepped on a Lego and like yelled at his kid and then felt bad about it and then like got work late because he spilled coffee all over his crotch and didn't want to get laughed at. So he had to turn around and go home and change his pants.Like what? That's our self image. And then when other people are like, wow, you're so awesome. It's like thank you. But also the, you have cognitive dissonance that comes into play, doesn't feel comfortable. And so if you're in a service position and you feel uncomfortable when people give you those kinds of accolades, then congratulations. You're a normal human being and you're not a narcissist or just somebody who's maybe not done a ton of work accepting that kind of praise, which makes you a normal human being. So I want people to feel comfortable with that and not feel like, Oh yeah, I don't like that. And that makes, that makes me even more weird for not liking praise. Something's wrong with me. That's not the case. It's always almost always the case that when you feel awkward about somebody giving you high praise, it just means you probably have a healthy self image. Maybe you skew a little bit more towards negative, but that's okay because I think we're as humans kind of designed to do that. We have a negativity bias. And it's completely healthy,man. I, you know, that's exactly, so this is perfect conversation because you know, the way I look at one, why I wanted to bring you on the show, it's like you're the encyclopedia of knowledge now, right? You've been interviewed just a massive amount of people and you've gotten a chance to really one, learn a lot, but, but contribute a lot out there and you know, for today, the problem that I wanted to kind of have the conversation with you around that, that I feel like we all deal with is, especially in the services we have, this need to be everything to everyone all the time.I understand that, right? So let me, let me disassemble that a little. You mean that if you're, let's say you're a policeman, you mean you've got to be a cop both when you're at home, but also when you're out with your friends, but also when you're at work naturally, but also even on your lunch hour when you're just trying to house a steak hoagie and not get any on your uniform or cheese steak and not get any on your uniform, you can't really turn it off cause it's part of your identity. Right?Which component of that there? It's a 24 hour gig.Sure. So in every occupation has that, but you guys, and I say you guys meaning just fire, police, military, whatever. Hopefully that's clear. You guys have it more because yes, I'm a or interview or radio host or whatever you want to call it all the time. But nobody's like, Oh my God, is anybody a radio host? This man's having a heart attack, right? Like that will never happen. Interview his wife and see how she's feeling right now. Like that's never going to happen to me and no sane world will that happen. But if you're hanging out with your family on your one day off, cause you've been working a bunch of overtime, putting out fires in California and you finally got to go to your kid's party for like three hours and somebody passes out, you can't be like, look man, I have been working a lot. And that's all you, you can't do that, right? You're, you're on. And if you're a police officer and your daughter brings home a sketchy looking guy, you're not like, you know, I'm just going to pack these in guy.Yeah, this is okay. I know I recognize the gang tattoos, but look man, I am not on the clock. Have fun honey. Like that's not going to happen either. Not only because you're a dad, but because you're like, I know what that symbol means and that's, there's no way you're leaving the house with that guy. Right. And I'm sure that that happens all the time. And so in a way it's like with VR, it's, it's one of those with great power comes great responsibility. But sometimes it's like, well fine, but I want to turn the responsibility off. So I can play Xbox, dammit.Yeah, man. There's, yes. And there's this place where it's like, I mean, I, years ago all confess, long time ago I, you know, when I first started the fire service, I had firefighter plates, you know, tagline, license plates. I eventually took them off. I was like, you know what, cause I don't want to stop at the accident anymore. I don't want to, I don't want to be this. If I'm not in it on it, I want to be just average person. I want to be okay to just be, you know, Jeff, not fireman, not, you know, military guy, not agency guy and anything else. I just want to hang out. Uh, you know, I think that's a big problem.I can imagine because you can't, it's like never taking a day off, which I think we all know what that feels like as well. Just owning my own business. I know what it's like to be like. I mean, I'll sit down to a nice relaxing meal on Thanksgiving and Christmas and I'm like, I should be answering fan mail, zeroing out my inbox, reading this book for doing some prep for this show. What do I have to do? I mean, I will literally be, I try not to do this one. I'm holding my kid, but even sometimes it happens and I'll go, Oh man, in five minutes I got to put him down because I really have to get back to work. And I'm like, no, I don't. It's Sunday at 1:00 PM what I need to do is put him in bed and go watch Netflix.You know? That's, that's what I need to do. But I can't really turn it off. And I think for people who are in positions, like what your audience and what you, the position that you're in, it's even more dangerous because if I say, what's the worst thing that's going to happen if I don't finish this book today? The answer is, well, I guess I could do it tomorrow. I just have to get up a little bit earlier and maybe listen while I'm at the gym. But if somebody says, what's the worst thing that happens if I don't stop at this accident? You start catastrophizing because you either start saying, Oh my gosh, well this could happen, this can happen. You start catastrophizing or you just start thinking nothing. Who cares? I got to get on with my life. But then you probably have a crisis of conscience that's like, yeah, I shouldn't think that way.What kind of horrible person drives past an accident when they have the training to stop it. So you're compelled to, nothing's really compelling me to bust out my Kindle. Right. Like a little bit of guilt that I can turn off cause I realize it's a little irrational. Your guilt is maybe that person's child is in hell a and you don't stop because you're halfway to whole foods and your kid's crying. You know like w what, what? It's a different game and I don't think, I don't think a, what do you call us? Civilians? Like I don't think us, right. Joe's like understand that fully. Because if you're a teacher in somebody who doesn't understand their math homework and they can't get ahold of you, Oh well you'll, you'll help them out on Monday. But if somebody passed out on the sidewalk, you have almost like a moral obligation and it's hard to turn that off and realize that you need your own sanity.So I think a lot of people in your position, you put yourselves last more so than most parents do, more so than most teachers, more so than most, I don't know, public servants in another position, like the mayor of most towns is not sitting at home on the weekend and worrying about what's in the office. Um, it may be a big city, but most, most of them are hanging out with their family and having Turkey, you're the one that has to be awake at 3:00 AM for the call. And that, that level of stress is not good for you longterm. And then of course they say take a vacation and you're like, I wish I freaking good. You know, I'm on vacation thinking, hope nothing bad happens to my friends. Even if you can put society out of your mind, you got your buddies out there.Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's, you know, it's interesting because like we do, we, we leave ourselves last in line and there's a level of expectation I think even in relationship and friendships and et cetera. Like there's this normal like why can't you just turn it off? Why can't you just be home right now? Why can't you, you know, you're not at work, why can't you just leave that at work? And so that's kind of this be everything to everybody all the time that shows up. It's like, okay, so I've got this side of me that I can't turn off. It's a 24 seven deal that I have this moral, ethical and you know, emotional response of ness to right. That I just am always tuned into what's happening. And then, you know, my wife wants me to be freed up and easygoing and have fun and not care, right. And, and not have this thing. And so it's like there's this ebb and flow, constant conflict. And I know, cause I've listened to some of your shows that have been radically helpful for me and a lot of ways, uh, you know, the people that you've had on and just kind of beginning to dissect how I begin to create transition points or points of recovery or understand kind of how I flow from one ideal person to another ideal person in a way, right. Without then the guilt and shame and crap that goes with it.Yeah, I think there's a lot of cognitive, well we've mentioned cognitive dissonance, but there's brain science that goes into to this like catastrophizing, what's the worst thing happened? And you start going down the if trail and the stakes are higher for what you guys are doing, guys and gals, let's be clear now, there's a lot of women out there now and I, I like, um, and you know, you're in this weird position where society will look at everything. Well, police especially now, um, firemen, I dunno if are, if you're immune to this, but, uh, I can't, nothing comes to mind. But with police man, now it's like you're under fire and all of you under fire. Whenever there's any kind of negativity. And I, I would imagine any cop out there now, in fact, I wonder this, I'm so curious if, if police now feel like they're looked at differently by a lot of folks just because of what's been in the news and that really, it really sucks to hear that because I mean, when I was little, the police would come in your house and you'd say, Hey, do you want some coffee?And they'd be like, sure, thank you. Now I feel like that would just never happen. Um, because there's just this more arms length distance, at least in bigger cities, especially, um, with where the police stand. When I grew up, I didn't grow up in a small town, but they would come in and they didn't take their shoes off because, you know, that's, that's a little bit too much. But they would have, you can make them tea or coffee and they would be like, thank you. Yeah, that's, that's great. Now I don't think that's allowed. And I remember recently, I live in San Jose, California. We had a package stolen and the cop came in and sat down at our kitchen Island and open up his laptop and did the report. And I was like, wow, this is such a different experience than I've experienced anywhere else.And even just the, the times that I've dealt with the police in other big cities, even in New York, when they come in, it's just like, you almost feel like you're at the police station. And I'm like, I didn't commit any crime. I called you guys, you know? And I remember just like feeling really intimidated and I realized, Oh yeah, they have half or one, some percentage of the time these guys walk into a house and someone tries to stab them or something, you know, like, so I gotta just sort of keep that in mind, but you can't live your whole life that way. And that's just really easy for me to say as a fricking podcast or it radio guy and you guys can't turn it off. And that takes its toll. There is science behind this. When you are in fight or flight mode or when you are at least an elevated stress for a long period of time, you don't, uh, you wreck havoc on parts of your brain. Um, you age faster, your heart, uh, is obviously not as healthy as it should be. And if you're always eating on the go, those two risk factors combined are just not good lifestyle. Um, I don't want to say choices because it's, it's hard to say that it's a choice, but they're not good lifestyle factors I should say. And that's, that's really bad for everyone around you too. And so you're really caught between a rock and a hard place. I hadone too. Yah. Which is not only all those core factors to it, but then, and it's finally cool because that's why I think we're doing well with the podcast and we're growing significantly in this community because we can now have these conversations and five years ago, 10 years ago, like this just, it wouldn't even be accepted. The kind of, the idea of looking, of looking at what's going on of, you know, emotional safety and the things that we deal with. Like when I grew up that, that, those were not conversations that were had at all ever around, you know, we live in a world of suck it up, shove it down, slam it down, deal with it, and do your job. And that's how a lot of us, especially kind of in our upper thirties and forties, you know, that's how we grew up. That was the environment.And it's cool for me to at least to see that today we're able to have these conversations and they're listening, right? And people are more curious about how do I deal with this? How do I transition emotionally? How do I understand all these core factors? Right? They're just kind of the task and purpose factors and then the internal factors that are in play. I mean, I, I remember flying the episode you did with, uh, Gabriel as Rocky when you guys were talking about self-development, uh, and kind of go and add it, right? I can't remember what the tile they upset was right off hand. Uh, but I was texting you all the way through it. Like this is, you were spot on with it. Uh, I,I always remember Gabe and I do a lot of stuff together because he's a frigging genius with his research. Go ahead.Yeah, like in that [inaudible] that, that particular episode, I'm going to find it, tag it and put it into the show notes because that particular episode, you know, you went through and you talked about all the kinds of the bullshit that's out there, the reality of things, you know, he did a phenomenal job and kind of breaking down a look at self-development in a way that I believe made sense to our, would make sense to our community rather than kind of this hoopla, hippy dippy hang out kind of stuff. You know, you were talking about some of the programs you've gone to where you just felt like totally violated in it. Like, get me outta here. Uh, and you know, and you were sharing some of those stories along the way that I think really resonated with me. And resonates with our world because it's like I don't, I it, there's a fear that if I become soft or soften myself, I won't be capable of doing my job as well.Yeah. And there may be some truth to that, but it becomes, it becomes problematic because of course you wouldn't parent the same way that you police. Right? Like, well, I, in theory you should probably not do that. Yeah. I mean, what, who am I to tell anybody how to police? But that's the idea behind it and it's really, really tricky to make recommendations like that because I'm sure people out there see therapists and things like that and it's like, okay, great. Have you ever been to Iraq, Afghanistan? No. Have you ever put out a fire I've ever seen burned a child, you know, and you're there and the parents' reaction, have you ever had someone pull a knife on you? Uh, you know, while you're in a closed space and your partner is taking a leak? I don't know. You know, like all of these things are, it's hard to relate to and it's, it's hard to have somebody be like, you just need to relax more.It's like F you, right? Like, what do you tell? Sure. Tell me that while you have another sip of your latte over there buddy. Like, sure. I just need to ask some more. And then it's like try yoga and like what planet? It just feels like the people giving advice to first responders and military. It's just, they're on another planet. They're from a different planet. It's completely nonsensical in a lot of ways. And so it's not, it's not relatable, which makes it worse because it's like hearing some quack tell you to do something and it's like you just don't even understand my reality at all. And it makes you feel more isolated of cool because then you think, Oh, the help that's available is some Yodel with a four year degree who's never even left, you know, our city or state and has certainly never held, uh, held a position like mine in a F in a dirt lot like Iraq or Afghanistan.And now I'm sitting here like listening to him tell me what I need to do. It's just gotta be really isolating and frustrating and that I think is just part of the problem. And of course you've talked to other people with the same problems. It's a good support group, but you're mostly just venting as opposed to getting actionable strategies and that. That makes me kind of sad to hear because I think it's no surprise we rely on you to do your jobs to have a functioning society where I can sit here and sip my latte and Dole out unqualified advice. Right? Yeah.I mean I used to have this statement where it's like if I went to see somebody went down to sit with a psycho or whatever, I'm like, listen, if I am actually honest with you, if I actually share with you what you want me to share with you, you're going to have PTSD by the time we're done. You know what I mean? Yeah. You're going to be fucked up, like, like, and, and then I'm going to end, the problem is like we live in a world or the way our brains work, it says, so there's this whole world for me now kind of uncovering, which is this understanding of how to bring calm to chaos. All right, so we're back and you know, here's where we kind of left off and we were talking, you were, you were, were kind of exploring this understanding from the law enforcement aspect where you know, you're Sharon, you know, cops used to be able to come in and sit down, have a cup of coffee, you know, actually converse with you where today it's like 24, seven always on edge.And it's this, you know, it was interesting as we're going, because I've been looking at this quite a bit, it's like this collapse of, of stress between the public and the providers, if you will. Right? So it's like this, there's this vicious circle that's happening. I think now that's been happening over the last several years where you know the police are a little bit more under fire being watched being you know, putting them on edge, the public's on edge about the police. It's like this high state of conflict where somebody has got a run in the middle and be like, okay can everybody just settled down for a second and take a breath and kinda hit the reset button. I do see that happening significantly.Yeah, I can imagine that there's not a whole lot of resources out there. I mean it's like there are and there aren't and everyone complains about things like the VA. I don't really know much about that, but I do know that no matter how many resources are out there, it can be really tough. When you go home and your friends and neighbors are kind of oblivious, you almost maybe feel like you're living a secret life. Maybe you are living a secret life.Yeah, which my neighbor, my neighbor in Florida for years, it's like, dude, what do you do? Cause you're like disappear for several weeks and then you just play golf when you're home and your work in your garage. Like I don't understand what you do. Yeah, man. I mean I think the, I, you know, it's been an interesting conversation so far because we've kind of explored where for us there's not all the, the resources are limited and in the way that people understand or give us, and I'll say us from the community, the opportunity to express ourselves fully and actually deal with some of the struggles that we face and have an open, honest conversation or dialogue without freaking people out. I was, you know what you're talking about. If I said, if I sat out with a psych, it'd be like, you know, you'd have PTSD by the time we're done. The problem is if I lay out what I actually feel inside, I'm going to hit all the trigger words. You know what I mean? They're going to be like, you know, well I gotta call somebody, I gotta, we gotta fix this. This guy's, you know, suicidal or this guy's, you know, homicidal or whatever. It's like, no, this is just my life. This is just the way I operate.Yeah. I think that there's probably a bit of, what would you even call this, like a protective shell that everyone's in your position is able to put on, but I don't, is that healthy? That's the question, right? Is that something that is healthy and I'm not totally sure that it is. I think maybe it serves a purpose, but I think that it's also probably, there's probably a problem that I don't think most people can switch it on and switch it off. I think that's the biggest issue. That's the biggest problem is it's hard to turn it off. Then when you're at your daughter's graduation, it's just still there. And so yes, it sort of protects you, but is that something that you actually, is that healthy for you mentally?Yeah, it does. It actually work for you longterm? I mean it is, it's like we've, you know, I, I re relate it back to when I was a kid when I was three or four or five now my mom would always laugh at me because there's two things I played growing up. Fireman and army. Like that was it. And I had to put on blue corduroys to play fireman and then go change into Brown corduroys if I wanted to play army, like I had to be in context, if you will. Right? Even as a kid, and I think I've looked at that skill right now. If I take that as a skillset, how do I pull it on when I put on my uniform or when I put something on, it's like, okay, here's where I am. This is who I am for this period in time. And when I take it off, I'm no longer that right now I am transitioning into husband, wife, mom, dad, son, brother, friend, hanging out or whatever it might be.Yeah. That's got to be tricky and also mentally taxing, and I think that's very problematic because I don't think a lot, I don't think a lot of people really know that, including the people that are doing this, you know, that are in your position, know that there is such a cognitive cost, a psychological cause to making that switch. It's not just leave it at home. If you're shoving it down, it's like eating Brussels sprouts. If you don't like those, right, you're, you're cramming it in there and it wants to pop back out and it's all you're devoting cognitive bandwidth, brain power to keeping it from popping out, and that's unhealthy because it's stressful for you. It's taxing for you.It's wearing, it's wearing. I mean, I think that's where I look now at 45 exhausted most times. Right. If you actually, if I'm honest with myself and with people around me, it's like I'm just worn out.Yeah, I can imagine. And you're not going to rest well if you're consistently working on made to, I don't want to, I'm trying not to talk last here. If you just keep on pushing something down, you're not going to have, let's say you spend 10% of your cognitive bandwidth trying to push it down. 90% of you is there. So being present is tough. Um, focusing on self care is like last priority cause you're just trying not to screw up the family party by being a weirdo or whatever. Right? There's all kinds of stuff that that happens as a result of that, that that is invisible and that's, that's the problem. That's what's unhealthy. It's invisible. It's, that's what makes it insidious. That's the word I'm looking for. It's insidious. You don't see it coming because you think everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's fine. And then you're just like, why the hell am I tired constantly?How come I can't relax? And then it just, they throw a label on it like, Oh it's part of your PTSD or it's like residual trauma. And it's like, yeah, but the real truth is that you, you can't relax, you're not focused, you're constantly monitoring your surroundings even though you're in your own living room. Like that's super unhealthy. And I don't, I don't think maybe it doesn't affect everybody, but certainly people that have seen combat or conflict or people that are on this street every day, you know, like that type of stuff that doesn't just go away. And you even see it when, when a police officers and military or retired, there's, it just doesn't go away. And I think because as an evolutionary strategy, the people that survived to, to reproduce were the people that didn't shut that stuff down so easily or forget it. So. Right. They were constantly vigilant. I don't think some Roman soldier really necessarily retired and lived out the rest of his years. They probably were, I don't know, back then, dead at 30 max at or no.Well, yeah, you lose all value. I mean, in a sense a truck goes away, you lose all value. And that's where I've really looked at it to say, and you know, you brought up an interesting point where there are a lot of labels that go with us, right? It's, Oh, that's just PTSD, or Oh, you must have done something or you must have seen something. It's like, no, it's just this, this constant inability to transition effectively to kind of settle myself and to turn it off. Right. To bring the volume switch down a little bit. Um, you know, that's been the interesting exploration for me. Now, understanding kind of the biological factors that go into play, uh, deep inside in the way we are trained and developed. And then of course, you know, childhood trauma and everything else that comes into play for us. We just aren't given the tool to ebb and flow in this life that we've chosen.And yeah, it's more, it's more exhaustion. It's more, you know, self-driven stuff than it is any incident or seeing something or participating in something cause a greater population. You know, you've got chose to put on a uniform. I chose to go to combat or I chose to run in that burning building or I choose to save lives. I choose to do these things and going back to kind of where we started, it's like when you, when you call me a hero or when you elevate me, it almost dismisses what I do in a way. Does that make sense to you? I mean, what do you think about that?Um, can you clarify that a little? I need to make sure I know what you're, yeah,so, so for instance, you know, we talked about this internal struggle between like not wanting to be called a hero or not wanting to be acknowledged so much. You know, cause for me, I'm laying in bed hoping your house burns down or you know, I want to go to the next thing I want to call out on my SWAT team. I want to do these things. I want violence to occur out there in the world. And when you then call me a hero or you elevate me because of what I've chosen to do, that creates that separation right. Internally from kind of the external view of who I am. But in doing that, also, what I'm trying to struggle and balance with is like the acceptance of myself and myself in the, my place in society. It's, I feel like there's this unspoken expectation that says, you know, if we're a firefighter or a cop, you know, we're committed to service.We're committed to the people around us, you know? Yeah, we're there to save you. Yeah, we're heroes. But internally, I don't think any of us feel that way at all and we don't know how to express stuff very well. I mean, we're, I had one of the guys on the show not too long ago that literally like at 16 you know, he started riding firetrucks 16 and they ran a house fire people inside trapped and burned up and the chief sat him down in the car, pulled out a six pack of beer and says, okay, this is how you're going to solve it. You know, and no wonder he's an alcoholic later in life. Right? Yeah. Dude, that's the world, man. That's the world we live in.Yeah, that's a, that's problematic. If people are, and I'm sure that's the exception and not the rule, I hope it is. But if those are the tools that sort of the tools of the trade that you learn when you start the job or yeah, just hit the gym extra hard tomorrow, you know, like, okay, but that's a bandaid on a bullet hole. And that's very problematic because what happened, not just that it doesn't work, but then people think, man, you know, I am having a drink with the guys and burning off some steam. I am hitting the gym, I am going for a run, but I still feel kind of shitty. Something is wrong with me. And that's the dangerous part. Not like, Hey, this tool is not working. I gotta find something else. Because you know, this isn't working for everyone. Maybe we should research this. It's, this isn't working for me, but I serve shit. Don't want to be the guy that walks in and is like, I feel bad. Right. Maybe that's not the culture.It's absolutely not the culture. I mean that's, and that's where I think we're finally, you know, we're just, I mean we are, you know, this is partly why it's interesting to have you on the show because in this, in the entrepreneur space, right? I mean it's like you and I hanging out at MMT in park city, just kind of taking a break, sitting out on the balcony, bullshitting, right? In this, in this flip side of the world, there's a lot of advancement, a lot of development, a lot of openness around self discovery and what's happening and emotion and freedom around that. And, and that's, that's becoming very much more mainstream than it used to be. But our audience, I mean, we're still antiquated. I mean, we're still in the dark ages when it comes to that stuff. Like we are just on the cusp of these conversations flowing out across the, across these communities. Cause it is, it's, it is, shut it down, shove it down, deal with it. Um, suck it up, buttercup. I mean, those are the, that's the, that's the training. That's the conversation. And I've said for years, you know, the only acceptable emotion in these worlds is anger, right? You can't be too happy. You can't cause then you're fucking off. You can't be sad because then you're weak. But you can be as angry as you want to be. And I think that perpetuates. It's like it's a self perpetuating cycle we're dealing with constantly.Yeah. Th the anger is an issue. And I think a lot of guys just men in general have this as a default because we're not necessarily taught good emotional communication. And a lot of us are less wired for that in a way. And then lean on that and go, wow, where a guy, you know, and so I, I don't know about you, but my dad, his diff, he's a great guy by the way, just to clarify. But he's his default communication when he's frustrated a little bit sad, feeling a little bit stressed, feeling a little bit rushed, feeling like he is a little silly because he forgot something. He just goes and gets angry because he doesn't have the other channels. Right? Like he doesn't have the other modes. It's like he's got red and, and you're like, Hey, color this in blue. And he's like, uh, red. Right. He just can't do it. So there's fun dad. And then there's like angry dad and then there's normal dad, but there's not like sort of down today dad, there's just really short temper and shorter temper and that's no, that's sort of normal for him. His dad was the same way. All the guys in our family are the same way and I'm fighting that all the time.Man. You just described me to a T really the majority of the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, it's been difficult. I mean, I did the work with Elliot road kind of release the anger stuff, which really helps significant crazy, you know, the, on the hypnotherapy side. But it's, it's difficult. And for me, what I've noticed is it's really driven by this sense of anxiety and anxiety around not being good enough for everybody around me. Yeah, that's, that's problematic. But it's also thanks normal as well, if that makes sense. Yeah. Well, and that's, and that is, and that's kind of right. That's the purpose behind some of this show is to kind of normalize this, this conversation that says, okay, that's, yes, it's a problem. Yes. You know, it's an issue that needs attention and you're not abnormal. Right? You're not the only one feeling that way. And, and I like that you said that it's, it is, uh, there's a big man issue there around it cause it is, I mean we weren't really, we're taught to be, to create physical safety really well. We're not taught to create kind of emotional safety for the people around us at all. And a lot of waysit's a good point. And additionally, I mean even in addition to that, not only are you not taught to create psychological safety, it's not even prioritized. You know, you're not even doing it for yourself, let alone for other people. It would be different if we were also self if we were centered and grounded and you know, felt good about ourselves and that it was just, Oh, we're just sort of selfish as guys. It's like, no, we're not even creating that for ourselves, let alone for other people. And you can't really create it for other people until you create it in yourself. You know, we, we think we're fooling everyone and our kids raising these kids and we're like, yeah, I just want my daughter to be confident. Yeah. I just want my son to be [inaudible] when they see your example and you think, Oh, I'm putting on a brave face.Okay fine. But after like age seven, they can tell. Right. And then he spent 20 years being like, I'm faking it. It's like, no, your kids are like, yeah, my dad, you know, he doesn't really take care of himself. You know, he's always stressed out. We think we're putting on a brave face and it's just so obvious cause you know, the cracks show, especially when they're sitting around at the dinner table and you blow up because they mentioned they didn't finish their project and before they finish their sentence telling you that they got an extra week for it, you start talking about how they didn't get their work done, dammit. You know, and like they're just hold up dad, we got an extension. Oh, you know, it's like that kind of thing. The cracks start to show, or when we massively overreact to something that they've done and they realize that that isn't normal.Or they see other people acting normal or they're just like, why is this the case with my dad? Oh, you know, mom says it's something from work. Like kids are smart. It's, there's, someone told me, uh, you have to be really careful when you have guns in the house, right? Because kids will get their hands on it and the retort is always, no, I have a gun safe. And it's, did you know the combination to any of your parents' stuff when you were a kid and the answers yeah. By age 11, 13, 15 years old. So the key isn't, don't let the kids have the combination that against safe. It's, by the time they're obviously going to have figured out what that is. They know how to use a gun safely. Right. That's the, that's how you keep them safe. Not, not by telling them, not by diluting yourself that they have no idea how to get in there. Cause you the same fricking safe code as you do on your iPhone. So when they candy crush, you're telling them the code, right? Like they, they're onto you buddy. You know,I knew all my dad's stuff was, I'm, yeah. At a very young age. Let me ask you a question. What have been a couple of your favorite episodes this year that you've done? I mean there's, we're closing out 2019 kind of related to any of this stuff. What do you, what have you taken away from your experiences this year in all the shows that you've done?Yeah, I've done some really interesting ones in the past year especially. There's one with Jack Barsky who was a undercover KGB spy who came to America at posing as an American and he later decided that he loved America so much he was just going to stay here. And he, he ended up never getting caught up until recently actually, well after the Soviet union had fallen. And so that's a really interesting story. It just kind of shows that if you ever feel like, Oh man, this country has gone to hell in a hand basket. You know, it's nice to see somebody from the outside who's essentially one of our sworn enemies, you know, coming in and going, actually this place is great for all these different reasons that I think a lot of people don't think about every day. Um, we had Admiral James DaVita's come on and talk about character that's a, he's an interesting guy because of course he's that, he was the NATO Supreme allied commander.So that's kind of a big deal to have somebody come on and talk about that sort of stuff from straight from the horse's mouth, you know, had a lot of opportunity to do bad things and, and didn't, and uh, man, we had a guy from catch me if you can, uh, the inspiration from cashmere, if you can, that movie with Leonardo DiCaprio. We had a Frank Abignail come on and discuss the psychology behind some of the, the cons and the imposter stuff that he was doing. And so the shows run a wide gamut. Even recently we had general Robert Spalding about how China is essentially looking to overtake America with technology, but also the spy, where that's going in some of the, and how the Chinese communist party really does have it out for us. And it's very well documented. It's not a secret. We're kind of the only ones that are sleeping on.So we've done a lot of really great shows that show that both things are both going in the right direction but also need to be maintained, right? Like we need to pay attention to the direction that we take our society and our country and ourselves. Because all of those things are integral to maintaining democracy. Like we can't just work on self-development, but we also can't just be paranoid about everything around it. It's like we really have to work on the whole picture. That's really, really crucial to do. So, eh, don't we risk our, our whole, our whole way of being.Yeah, I'm mad and I think that's what I really enjoy about your show. You know? And again, part of the, my mission, I feel like bring people into my world. You know, they may not, they may not listen to Jordan harbinger. They may not know you exist. Uh, cause it's kinda not in their bandwidth being able to bring resources and tools to the table for the men and women out there that are doing their jobs every day. You know, you've got some phenomenal stuff out there that I know would make a difference in their life.Well, thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate it. I'd love that people are listening to podcasts more now and if they're interested in this and maybe they'll be interested in the Jordan harbinger show and I'm on social media at Jordan harbinger on Twitter, Instagram, et cetera. So I'd love to hear from everybody. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate the opportunity. It's a lot of fun and talking with you is always fun.Hey man. Yeah, we just need to hang out more often and clearly now. I owe you a nice dinner and I'm going to try to be in San Diego again while you're there, but, and I'll make sure that all the links are up on the show notes. Uh, that, uh, all the links to your a one year podcast, but then, uh, Jordan harbinger.com, uh, your links to Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, all the good stuff. Uh, and I know that you're, uh, I think sometimes we feel like people are untouchable or unreachable in the world. You know what I mean? And I want my listeners to know that I know you're a pretty responsive guy and you know, you offer a lot and you're really committed to, uh, bring in a conversation to the table in a variety of ways that helps solve problems everyday for people, you know, kind of the every day. That's what I really appreciate about what you do.Well, thank you very much man. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to everybody and like I said, it's always fun to chat, so don't be a stranger.Hey brother, I really appreciate you joining us today. All right,that wraps up our show and matter of fact, the last show of 2019, happy new year again, Jordan harbinger. Brother. Thank you for giving us your time coming on this show. Uh, educating me and us giving us your thoughts and your insights and really a summary of everything that you've been able to accomplish over this last year. I appreciate it so, so much. I hope everybody had a great 2019 or at least you're still here. You asked me 20 that year. 15 was a pretty much a shit show in a lot of ways, but a lot of great things came out of it and I'm looking forward to an entire new year to really blow this thing up. So a couple of little things. One, we're going to continue with the Tuesday, Thursday podcast episodes starting in 2020 for the month of January. We're going to be dealing with the operational pillar.Number two, mental acuity has some great guests lined up throughout the month. Really some phenomenal episodes, some great tools and lessons and things to learn and practical application. Please do me a favor, keep sending me your notes, your feedback, your thoughts on what we're doing and how we're doing it and if it's working for you or not. The last big thing is I need your support and keeping this show up and running, keeping things moving and giving back to you. A lot of you have asked for more, for more depth, for training, for etc. And we've got to figure out how to do that. So I put together your a hundred day operational challenge. It's available at mindsetradio.com or you can go to mindsetradio.com/opyourlife. That's Opie your life. It's a go nation basis because this podcast is a part of the operation mindset foundation. So there's some options to do that. And if for right now, for some reason you want to take on the program and you just can't swing that donation, send me an email and we'll talk about it.I'm really looking forward to bringing people into that program. We're going to begin January 15th as a group and after that you'll be able to sign up any point in time and it'll run for you and not a problem. So that'll be up in live starting January 15th make sure you get in, register early so that we can know who's coming in. Get some things set up. It's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a freaking ball Buster, but I promise you at the end of the a hundred days there is gold at the end of that rainbow. So I look forward to you joining me. Thanks for listening. As always, do me a favor, share this podcast out. Share it with those your work, those you love, those you like and hell. Even though she can't stand, maybe they'll shift some contacts for them.So thanks for giving me a great year, your time, your attention, your listening and your feedback. I greatly appreciate it. Thanks to all the sponsors and stepped out this year and really supported us. Roofers, Elliot Rose at the prime mind app, chief Miller apparel and all the others that just showed support across the board. I greatly appreciate it. I'm looking forward to having the conversation in the new year with you. Bring us some new guests, new tools, new techniques, and some real practical application routes from stop again, don't forget to swing by out mindset.com check out the foundation in 2020 we're going to be out on the road quite a bit, teaching a lot of the programming that's out there. So if you want to bring something to your department, pop in, fill out the grant app, and let's get this. I already started, so it's all there and available for you. Let's really elevate the conversation of how we perform at the top of our game, mentally, physically, and emotionally in all aspects of our life for 2020 that's the mission. I hope you'll join me for it. That's it. Have a great safe new year and we will talk to you soon. 

  Don West and Shawn Vincent explore a tragic road-rage case that resulted in the unnecessary deaths of both the defender and the aggressor. The case illustrates how, for concealed carriers, road-rage is a no-win scenario.   TRANSCRIPT:  Shawn Vincent: Hey there, Don. How's it going? Don West: Great, Shawn. Good to see you again. Shawn Vincent: It's good to see you. So often, we record these things when we're in our own nomadic offices. What do we call this thing that we're doing, where we can work out of our home sometimes, or we work out of a hotel room, we work out our rental car? Don West: Isn't technology remarkable in that sense for us who need to travel as part of the way we make a living, have the luxury of traveling as well so that when we're not traveling for work, but otherwise enjoying life, we can still do the things that are important from a professional standpoint, we can still have conversations with each other and others. We're no longer tethered to the desk. Shawn Vincent: Tethered to the desk, which is case in point. I don't have an office that I go to every day. I work from my home. I work from a hotel. Yeah. I work where I need to work, sometimes from the back porch of my house, and the weather's good enough. But today, we're in a library in Winter Park, Florida. I have to say I'm surprised at how noisy librarians are. Don West: We actually had to move the room. Shawn Vincent: We moved the room here next to the employee break lounge. The librarians wouldn't shut up. They're too noisy. But here we are. Don West: That's the beauty of it. Here we are in the same part of the country for the first time in quite a while. Shawn Vincent: It's been  months anyway. Yeah. Don West: We can find a local spot. We have portable equipment, and we have laptops and cell phones and lovelier microphones. Now, we have a broadcast studio. Shawn Vincent: That's right. Even if it's a slightly echoey room. But yeah. Here's what I want to talk about with you today. You've mentioned last time we spoke that you tried your first case that involved a violent crime before a jury about 30 years ago. Don West: Yeah. I've been thinking now probably early '80s. So we're talking probably '82, '83, in that range. I was working at the public defender's office in Seminole County, Florida, which turned out to be the same venue more than 30 years later for the George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin trial, which is kind of the backyard for Mark O'Mara and me for such a long, long time. My first self-defense case, lethal self-defense case to a jury was a local Seminole County prosecuted case. It was domestic in nature. My client was a woman who stabbed and killed her husband in self-defense, and it goes back that long ago. There've been a number of them since. They're all unique, even though there are common threads of course and common legal issues. Don West: Interestingly enough, in that case, there was a reversal on appeal because she was convicted of a lesser offense because of jury instructions. The court denied her the opportunity of the castle doctrine. Then on appeal, the appellate court said, no, she was in a home that she lived in. Even though they were estranged, and she was just there temporarily, it was still her house. So she had no duty to retreat, and then reversed, got a new trial, and the case resolved. Shawn Vincent: That's really interesting. So castle doctrine doesn't have to refer to only your primary residence if it's a home where you have a right to be. Don West: They were equal occupants. Shawn Vincent: Equal occupants. Yeah. Don West: That's right. Shawn Vincent: That's interesting. You're just as protected by castle doctrine at your beach house if you're lucky enough to have one as you are in your primary residence then. Don West: Yeah. It was interesting because one of the factual issues that led to that was that she had an opportunity to leave without re-engaging him and chose not to. The confrontation turned lethal, and she had been denied the defense basically of the castle doctrine. The jury was instructed she had a duty to retreat under the circumstances. Even though they didn't buy the prosecution argument that it was murder, she was still convicted of a lesser offense and sentenced to a prison sentence. So the case was appealed. We won on appeal, and the whole thing worked out in her favor at that point. But it was a good example of how one... We talk about so often how one- Shawn Vincent: About the nuances. Don West: ... little thing makes such a huge difference. Frankly, let's fast forward, how many years to the Marissa Alexander Case in Jacksonville? Shawn Vincent: You were talking about that. It made me think of Marissa Alexander situation. Don West: I hope we do a deep dive in that case at some point. But long story short is she was prosecuted for essentially firing a warning shot at an estranged... I don't know if they were still married, but it was an ex-relationship of sorts. She felt threatened and fired a gun, had lost, I believe, the self-defense immunity hearing, went to trial, was convicted and initially sentenced to I think 20 years in prison. Shawn Vincent: 20 years. Three 20-year sentences to be served consecutively because there was the husband or the estranged father, some children, and two children were present. So she fires one shot, which she called a warning shot that struck nobody, went into the wall and then to the ceiling and the room next to her. Angela Corey and her crew, who we've had experience with, decided that they'd charged her with attempted murder times three. Don West: Yeah. Not to get too far off-track, but in that case, she was convicted and sentenced to a lengthy prison term and won a reversal. I think out of all of that stuff that was so controversial and was so divisive, even within the legal community, she winds up I think getting a new trial because of a jury instruction issue. Don West: So she comes back. She gets a redo and gets some new lawyers and some maybe new prosecutors. But in any event, there's a resolution of the case that's favorable. But she spent at least some time in prison. I believe is a convicted felon even as a result of what turned out to be negotiated outside. Shawn Vincent: So I promise you we are going to do a deep dive into that case relatively soon. I also have some bad news for you, Don. 1982, '83 was way more than 30 years ago. Don West: Oh, Shawn. Say it isn't so. Shawn Vincent: So they get closer and then- Don West: Oh my goodness. I guess you're right. Shawn Vincent: 37, some years ago. You and I were talking one time, and he said, "A few years ago something happened." I said, "Is that an actual a few years ago, Don, or is that like the old man, 15 years ago actually, but it feels like just a few years ago?" Don West: That does feel just like a few years ago to me. I say 30 thinking that- Shawn Vincent: That's long enough. How could anything have happened 30 years ago that I can remember, right? I'm middle-aged now, which I'm starting to get into my head that... When I climb stairs, it becomes apparent to me that I'm middle-aged now. Or when I tell the same stories over and over again, which I'm prone to do. My kids know, I apologize. I'd probably told you this story before, and like, "Yeah, Daddy. You have a lot of stories that you tell over and over again. Mommy has one story that she tells over and over again." That's the difference that my kids have determined. Shawn Vincent: So I bring that up only because I think you've told this story before, and some avid listeners may have heard it. But because we're getting older and it's our prerogative, we're going to tell this story again. Because today we'll be talking about a road rage case. You told me about a self-defense case, a road rage case where you're quizzing potential jurors during jury selection and got a surprising answer. Don West: That's exactly right. I remember it clearly as well as I can remember anything, clearly. Shawn Vincent: Was it 30 years ago? Don West: At my advanced age. Yeah. It wasn't 30 because it was clearly... I think it was after the first one I was telling you. [inaudible 00:09:30] has long since gone beyond the public defender's office and full-time practice criminal defense laws, state and federal in private practice and the Orlando area and places beyond. But in any event, I had this jury trial, was a case that could not be resolved. My client was charged with second-degree murder, with the use of a firearm, which would have likely resulted in either a life sentence or such a long sentence that it would have effectively been the rest of his life. Don West: We picked a jury. We're picking a jury. The overview of the case, and I don't name names in these cases because these are people that are with us right now, somewhere maybe even in this community who as a result of this event were prosecuted, were facing lengthy prison sentence. By good luck, and I'd like to think some good lawyering and some favorable facts are no longer facing that, that they were acquitted. They got to live the rest of their life, and I see no reason to bring them back into it now. Don West: I can certainly swear to you that none of this is made up. It's part of the life experience of individuals that we know personally because we've been involved in their lives and the life of criminal defense lawyers and litigation consultants. But we were picking a jury, and obviously, one of the issues we want to know and explore with jurors is their attitude about firearms, the use of firearms, self-defense, even generally attitude about the second amendment and their views. Firearms, the use of firearms, licensed, unlicensed, possession of firearms has always been controversial. Don West: Fortunately, in Florida the lawyers have wide berth in personally questioning the jurors during the voir dire, some people pronounce it, the jury selection process. I was kind of humming along, talking to jurors, kind of in my own mind, selecting the ones I would like to keep if I could and mentally getting ready to challenge the ones I didn't think would be good for this case. The overview of the facts that my client and some friends had gone to a nightclub. My client had a gun. He left it in the car, as he should have, to go into the club and inside the club was being hassled by somebody. I never understood exactly why someone who may have had a connection to one of the other friends, but no big deal. Don West: Then they leave at the end of the night, go out into the parking area, and this guy shows up and starts harassing my client again. It gets a little bit physical. My client retreats to the car thinking that it's safe there, purposely trying not to engage them, and the guy's not content with letting it go and essentially attacks the car, start slamming into it, kicking the windows. Eventually, it got so frightening to my client. He felt so threatened and vulnerable. There was no place for him to go that, as he smashed the car one last time, he shot the gun, and tragically, it killed him. He was being prosecuted for second-degree murder. Don West: From a legal standpoint, my client was the passenger in the rear seat, could not control the car. The driver of the car wound up testifying that he was stuck in traffic. Everybody was leaving at that point. There was nowhere he could go- Shawn Vincent: Sure. Pinned in. Don West: ... to try to go away, pinned in. Whether it was good luck again or brilliant lawyering, I don't know. But before the trial was over, the driver actually testified that he was scared, and had he been my client, he would have done the same thing. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Out of reasonableness standard. Don West: Yeah. So back to the jury selection issue. I'm questioning jurors about their knowledge of firearms, whether they have guns at home or in their cars and how they feel about self-defense in general. I was talking to a juror who was very pro-gun. He had a lot of firearms. He was proud of it too, was an advocate for the Second Amendment and outspoken about it. I'm initially thinking this is pretty good stuff for me. This is a guy who starts for me defending my client from the right perspective. Then I wanted to get a little bit more information about his practice and views, especially when it comes to cars. Don West: So I'm talking with him, and I say, "Well, I know you have firearms at home, and you believe in the right to protect yourself and others. Do you have a gun in your car?" In Florida, you can have a gun in your car without a concealed carry permit if it's under certain circumstances. So people can have guns in their cars that don't otherwise not allowed to carry them concealed. I just assumed it would be true, and I said, "So when you're out in your car, do you have a gun? Do you keep it in your glove box or somewhere?" He goes, "Oh my goodness. No." Shawn Vincent: No. Don West: It threw me back. I couldn't believe. Here's the guy. I thought it was a softball question. I never expected “no.” So in jury selection, you actually should ask why or why not, questions you would never ask on cross-examination because you really- Shawn Vincent: Sure. But those sorts of conversations, you really bring up other people's opinions, right? Don West: You want to know what they think, right? Whether it's good or bad, you need to know what it is. So I say, "Why not?" He goes, "I can't trust myself. I have a quick fuse when I am in a difficult traffic situation, and somebody cuts me off or flips me off. I don't think I can keep myself from reaching for that gun and waving it around. God forbid that I should ever take it to the next step, but I purposely don't have a gun in my car because I can't trust myself not to use it when I'm so pissed as I get when I'm driving a car and some idiot cuts me off." Shawn Vincent: Wow. That's some remarkable self-awareness, right? Don West: It is. It is. To his credit, I guess, whatever works for you because we have encountered our own series of road rage cases, whether it's doing this kind of work or just in the cases that we've touched and in legal work to know how volatile and how deadly that stuff becomes sometimes for apparently no reason, at least no good reason. Shawn Vincent: We see these cases where inside the course of a minute, you can go from running errands to being in a gunfight. Don West: Yeah. People that have never known each other, never expected, never would have known each other, but for the circumstance that brings them together. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Now, aside from more than 30 years as a criminal defense lawyer, you're at your national trial counsel for CCW Safe? Don West: Yes. Shawn Vincent: What does that mean? Don West: As national trial counsel for CCW safe, I see in some way or another, all of the cases involving our members that come to the company, all of the claims, I see them at some point. Most of the time, I take the phone call from the member who has just experienced or is currently even involved in a self-defense scenario to help identify the resources they need. I identify and retain counsel on their behalf. Oftentimes I'll go to the location where the incident took place, attend court proceedings and become involved in marshaling and monitoring and helping fund their defense. I even consult with their local counsel for strategy. In some cases I've had a lot of contact with the member through the process, discussing the case and even doing mock examinations, practice cross-examinations, this sort of trial preparation stuff that helps the members feel confident that they're able to communicate effectively with the court and with the jury. Shawn Vincent: Sure. There's a lot of other podcasts in the CCW Safe family of podcasts. Specifically, I'm a litigation consultant. I've had the great privilege to work with a lot of great attorneys on very interesting cases. I get to help pick juries from time to time. You and I have picked juries together before. I've been able to help you in voir dire. The focus of our podcast is to talk about the legal ramifications to a use of force incident, when somebody feels they need to use their weapon in justifiable self-defense, that next fight that we talk about. They've survived the first fight with the aggression that they faced, and now, there's this potential legal challenge to whether they're justified or not. So we look at these- Don West: We look at the broad spectrum of that from post-incident when the smoke has cleared. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Now, how does the law look at that? Don West: Now, what happens? Yes. We hope by providing this kind of information and written stuff and communicating with the members even one-on-one, the first interaction with law enforcement, for example, and from that point forward, what to expect if the case is referred for prosecution? What happens if you're arrested? What to expect in court. How much it would cost, frankly, if you were funding it yourself. Fortunately, CCW Safe members don't pay anything for the cost of the legal defense should they be involved in a self-defense incident. Shawn Vincent: So now, as you're in your role as... trying because you've had a chance to talk to a lot of members. Don West: Yes. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. You've told me before that when we look at these road rage incidents, those are one of the most likely scenarios where concealed carriers could find themselves in a very difficult whole situation very quickly. Don West: I've been involved in road rage cases on behalf of CCW Safe where shots were fired, where people were prosecuted for that, again, to people that never knew each other, that somehow get involved in something that escalates to potential lethal violence. But a lot of it is the loss of emotional control that ends up from a legal standpoint in a brandishing or an assault, somebody that displays a weapon under circumstances that are as considered reckless or threatening and winds up in somebody getting arrested and being prosecuted. We see that, frankly, all too often. In my experience, it's the easiest way for people to wind up that are otherwise living normal lives in a potential lethal situation and often in a legal situation that results in being prosecuted for something. Shawn Vincent: Right. You're trying to specifically just about brandishing a weapon. You're in your car, things have gotten heated with somebody else. Maybe you feel threatened, maybe you're just angry, and you have a gun in the dashboard or in the center console, and you pull it out and show that you have it. Don West: Yes. Exactly. Right. We see more of those in a road rage context than under any other fact pattern that I can think of. Shawn Vincent: Kind of just lose their minds on the road. Don West: That's a great way of saying it. They just become crazy, don't they? Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Don West: Everyone listening, and I know I can give you half a dozen incidents myself that I remember that moment when something happened that took just driving down the road to the next level where I wanted to react. I did react emotionally, maybe by yelling or perhaps more gesturing. But to think how quickly that can go when two people are willing to engage, both people then feel offended and violated, and then it just climbs the ladder to the point that somebody takes- Shawn Vincent: They introduced a gun, and to the situation, they can get violent. Yeah. I'm pretty sure the first time my children ever heard the term “douchebag” was because of some sort of traffic incident that I was involved with. So let's look at our road rage case, right? This is going to be unique in the cases that we've looked at, in that, in this case, nobody was charged because everybody involved ended up dead. A lot of the cases- Don West: This is as tragic as any case we've talked about and is unnecessary as any case we ever talked about. Shawn Vincent: Right. A lot of the times, the worst case scenario in a case is that somebody is dead, and the shooter's determined to be unjustified even when there seemed to be some reason for them to have reasonable fear. So this case, we're going to go... This is Davie, Florida, so famous in Florida for being the first stage of ground state. We have a guy named Keith Byrne. He's a 40-year-old father of three. He's a Marine veteran, and he's driving a utility truck. He's on the phone with a friend, probably shouldn't be, and inadvertently cuts off another guy who's driving a blue BMW. It's 22-year-old Andre Sinclair. He's also a father. In fact, he's got the mother of his child and his child in his BMW. Shawn Vincent: They come to a red light. Now, Byrne reportedly rolled down his window and said, "My bad." This is what the friend of his who was on the phone with him testified to. So he says he hears, "My bad." So we think that Byrne's trying to apologize for cutting the guy off, and then he hears shots fired. What we learned from local reporting and from the law enforcement agency that investigated is that Sinclair gets out of his BMW. He's armed with a gun, and he approaches Byrne's truck. I think I remember hearing some suggestion that Sinclair fired first. Don West: Here's where I was confused, just for a second, as you were outlining those facts, because I had read at least one article on this. I think maybe Sinclair might even have been a passenger in the BMW. Shawn Vincent: That might be true. Don West: I think maybe his girlfriend was driving the car, and their child was in the car. Clearly, that Byrne cut him off and was apparently ready to acknowledge fault, I guess whatever traffic incident there was. So this even becomes a little more confusing and complicated. But let's assume all of that to be true, that Sinclair is the passenger in the BMW, his girlfriend drives, stops the car. Even under that scenario, Sinclair gets out of the vehicle to approach Byrne's utility truck. Byrne rolls the window down and by the account of the friend who overhears some of it on the phone call was preparing to or had already begun apologizing and accepting responsibility for whatever traffic incident took place. Shawn Vincent: Right. But what happens instead is there's an exchange of gunfire. Perhaps Sinclair fires first. Byrne returns fire. Byrne is struck in the chest. He dies in the seat of his utility vehicle. Sinclair is struck less critically, but nonetheless fatally. He's taken to the hospital, and he dies later. Now, the police come immediately, and they investigate this. One of the officers who does the PR for the law enforcement agency said that they would have, after a brief investigation, arrested Sinclair had he not died of his injuries. So from what we know, he's clearly the aggressor here and by that account, Byrne justified in returning fire. You get someone pulling a gun and approaching your vehicle, especially if they're shooting, that's as justified as you can get, right? Don West: Yeah. It may not even matter legally at that point who shot first. If Byrne is there in his truck, and he sees Sinclair approaching him, sees a weapon and sees Sinclair prepared to use it, you put all of that stuff together, and looks to me like an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death, the ability to use deadly force. I don't know what may have been said. This is another one. We don't know what happened. We only know the roughest outline because we don't know if Byrne saw Sinclair with the gun and reacted to that right or who fired first or whether Sinclair got the gun with the purpose of shooting Byrne as he got out of his car and approached him or if Byrne sees the gun, reacts to that, Sinclair reacts to Byrne's gun, who had reacted just . . . Shawn Vincent: Those are all those nuances that you've talked about, the fact that. . . We've looked at nine different cases where we followed them all the way through the court case right up to verdict and sometimes into appeal, and during that process, lots of details come out. Some of this stuff, we're only able to talk about what reporters who were there in the courtroom talked about. You and I know there's all sorts of other stuff that jurors saw and beyond that stuff that the lawyers fought to keep out from the case, right? Don West: Of course, yeah. Shawn Vincent: So you can thin slice these things to the most minute degree. So we're talking in broad terms here about these cases. But in this case, what I see is here's a guy who, in all accounts, was justified, this is Byrne, in using deadly force. What little good that does him now because he's dead. There's something that Sergeant Leone from the law enforcement agency said about road rage scenarios. If you find yourself in one, just leave the area, even if you have to turn on a different street, right? I think one of the four elements of self-defense that we talked about in those nine cases that went to trial that we examined, one of those elements is deescalation, right, and that when you're a concealed carrier, and you have the weapon that can end all confrontations, that you have a responsibility to avoid confrontations whenever you can. Shawn Vincent: We're talking about how angry people get in traffic and how quickly you said that these road rage instances are the only things we can go from zero to 100 in seconds, right? Don West: You lose your mind. Yeah. This is the first time that we're really talking about some of those actual nuances. But let's take a minute, even if it doesn't get us anywhere at the end. Let's take a minute just in our human experience and our human experience with road rage and our experience understanding human nature and stuff and just imagine a couple of ways that this could have played out. We know the end was tragic. Both people died. We can assume the worst, especially on Sinclair's part because he got out of the car with the gun. He clearly started it. But can't you imagine that Sinclair is angry because he got cut off? We don't know what Byrne may have done, whether there was other stuff said or done or what have you. Don West: Let's say Sinclair gets out with the gun being a jerk with the idea of just scaring the hell out of Byrne and saying, he gets out the gun and he wants to wave it at him and point him. He wants to brandish it. Not that he intends to shoot him at that point, but let's say he wants in his mind to teach him a lesson. Shawn Vincent: He doesn't know that this guy is a gun packing Marine veteran. He thinks he's only one with a gun, and- Don West: So he wants- Shawn Vincent: ... "I'm going to show him." Don West: Right. "I'll show him." So he gets out with the gun. He walks up to the car. Now Byrne's pretty confused. Here's a guy that he wants to apologize to for the traffic violation, and now he's coming at him with a gun. What is Byrne's natural response going to be to that? He has to think. He just has to think that Sinclair got out of the car with the gun to come up there and shoot him. It isn't likely statistically that that would happen. It's probably much more likely that he intended to scare him or just be a jerk. Shawn Vincent: But that's not a gamble anyone wants to take. Don West: No. He has to assume at that point. He got out of the gun for the purpose of walking up there and as stupid and ridiculous and as criminal as that is that that's a very possible outcome. So he has to get his gun, doesn't he, at that point to defend himself? Who knows that at that point Byrne doesn't see... I'm sorry, that Sinclair doesn't see Byrne's gun, and now it's two guys within a few feet of each other with guns, both of them feeling the other one's going to shoot them. In fact, that's what happened. Both guys are shooting, both guys die. Don West: I think all of that because Sinclair got out of the car with a gun under circumstances that could never ever warrant that kind of response. It was stupid to get out of the car even if he wanted to give Byrne a piece of his mind. He walks up there and yells at him and walks away. But as soon as he escalates it to the point that- Shawn Vincent: Sinclair, that is, brings the gun out. Yeah. Don West: Yeah. Sinclair escalates it to the point that Byrne thinks he's in a life-threatening situation. There's no place to go. Shawn Vincent: So essentially, it's mutually assured destruction, right? That you've got two people who are armed in a confrontation that happened with low context, right? They're not communicating. All of a sudden, the first attempt to communicate may have been seen as an escalation. You roll down your window. Maybe he's planning to get into it. That's a complication. Don West: That's a terrific point that, from Sinclair's perspective, as he approaches the vehicle, the window goes down, and he may very well have interpreted that as a willingness for Byrne to engage. Shawn Vincent: To increase the engagement. Don West: Right. Why would he think that, all of a sudden, Byrne was going to apologize, right? Shawn Vincent: Right. That doesn't seem the most likely. Don West: So that is a recipe for disaster. Shawn Vincent: Well, yeah. So as soon as the guns are introduced in that scenario, if both people are armed, you've just lit a fuse, right? It's almost- Don West: It's like the- Shawn Vincent: ... a point of no return here. Don West: It's like the two guys standing in a pool of gasoline each holding a match. I'm sure you've seen that poster somewhere, right? It's assured mutual destruction. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. So nobody's going to argue in this case that Byrne did anything wrong, right? Necessarily. He's certainly justified, and even the police are going to put all of the blame on Sinclair. If they both lived, Sinclair is the one that gets arrested and charged with murder or attempted murder if they both lived, right? Don West: Sure. Shawn Vincent: But that doesn't change the reality for Byrne that now that he's in this situation that this horrific result is most likely the one that's going to come across. Don West: Absolutely. Shawn Vincent: So what that means is if you're a concealed carrier, if you have a gun in your vehicle, then you want to avoid at all costs the confrontation that could potentially light that fuse and get you in a no-win shootout over whatever minor traffic violation that happened. Don West: You can in hindsight look back and try to pick some points in time where something different could have happened. This is maybe a once in 100 million scenario. At the same time, the only way that would have stopped it for sure was for Byrne not to engage even in an attempt to be pleasant about it. Shawn Vincent: Right. Even to go into a step further and just change course just to get away from the guy. Right? Even if he's going to a couple blocks in the wrong direction, just get disengaged completely because there's no way to apologize in that situation. Don West: I think if Byrne sees Sinclair get out of the car, I'm going to assume for a moment that they were both at the red light, so that Sinclair's car was legitimately behind. They weren't both pulled off the side of the road, stop, but that Byrne stopped at a red light and that Sinclair's girlfriend stopped behind him. But as soon as Byrne realizes Sinclair gets out, he has to run the light. He has to do something to physically get away because there is no good outcome at that point. He can't take the chance to engage for fear of exactly what happened. Shawn Vincent: Now, we talked about all the interactions that you have with CCW Safe members. I recall you talking about a member who shared a story with you about a road rage incident where he was able to disengage. Now, we're not going to use names or anything. But you remember the story where they ended up at a stop sign in a relatively rural place? Don West: Yes, yes. I do remember. I'll just kind of paint a very big overview of it. But there was the potential for a serious road rage incident. I don't know if it started with someone being cut off or some perceived injustice. As often happens, one person starts following the other closely. You've seen those people that run up, and tailgates are real close, or they pull out around and slow down in front of you. Shawn Vincent: Sure. I've heard about that. Don West: Just being aggravating and trying to get you to engage. This was a similar scenario, where the guy got in front of him and then stopped at a stop sign or a stoplight. The member ultimately who was behind him at this point saw him start to get out of the vehicle. Essentially, he was blocked in from the front, and I think, if I remember correctly, he either believed he was going to get out or didn't even want to take the chance that he might get out and engage face to face. So he did the one logical thing that he could do. Fortunately, under the circumstances, he put his car in reverse and he just simply drove back 75 or 100 yards and watched what happened. I think, yes, at that point, the guy got out of the car, looked at him, then got back in the car and left. Shawn Vincent: It's such a befuddling move at that point, and it was clearly a disengagement. It was as simple like, "I'm not messing with you. You win." Now- Don West: Now, at that point that if the other driver attempts to engage, he's got 100 yards to walk or 50 yards to walk where the other driver can then reassess and calculate and decide what to do at that point, what other kind of evasive action to take or what have you. I thought that was so smart. It's gutsy to me in the sense that you don't want to give in. You don't want to throw up your hands and surrender. You want to meet face to face the idiot who if not causing the problem to start with is reacting unfairly to you, blaming you for something that even if you did it wrong, it wasn't that bad. It certainly doesn't warrant that kind of disproportional reaction. All of a sudden, it just starts churning, and people do such incredibly foolish and dangerous things. Shawn Vincent: I know. I know. Some of the best marital advice I've ever gotten was the idea, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy, right? So I’m quite content being wrong and happy frequently. I think in self-defense or something, somebody said, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be alive, or do you want to be right and have someone's blood on your hands from a conflict that could have been avoided?" Don West: Anytime you decide to engage somebody in one of those situations, you are making the assumption that they will act reasonably and rationally even under an emotional circumstance. That's a bad assumption because there's a lot of crazy volatile people in this world, and even otherwise pretty stable normal people have trigger points, and for some reason, it seems to be, driving is one of them that- Shawn Vincent: Yeah. At the beginning of this conversation, you were talking about how often you'll field phone calls where people are in trouble for brandishing while driving, right? So brandishing is in most places, I think in Florida, it's just true is considered an assault, right? If you brandish a weapon, that's a threat of deadly force. Don West: Yeah. It depends on where you are. Not all states have the crime of brandishing, but they all have some variation on assault. Assault is typically a pointed threat to someone. For example, if you point a gun at somebody, you're often guilty of the crime of aggravated assault. That would be assault without the intent to kill. It means non-justified assault, essentially. Shawn Vincent: As opposed to a defensive display. We've talked about that before, where you're neutralizing a threat by demonstrating that you have force and are willing to use it and -- Don West: When you would have the right to use force. So the reckless display or the aggravated assault is when you don't have the right to do that. Assault is often intentional and pointed in a lot of places, has a mandatory prison sentence that involves a firearm. Brandishing is more of a reckless kind of waving around, threatening, not necessarily pointed at somebody for the purpose of shooting them or even for the purpose of making them think you're going to. But it's kind of a reckless display and is still a criminal offense. It can be a serious criminal offense. Shawn Vincent: Here's why I bring this up. Don West: But non-justified. It's not brandishing if you did it in response to a legitimate bonafide threat. Shawn Vincent: Sure. Don West: The problem is a lot of times it's not. It's too much force. It's trying to win the argument to prove that you're the one who's capable of using force. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. So here's why I bring that up. I'm thinking about this case. We talked about, way some time ago, Indiana, south of Indianapolis in a rural community. We have two neighbors, one of them is a firefighter, and the other one is this crazy-haired wild guy. You know Laura Dern's father? What's his name, that actor? Don West: Bruce? Bruce Dern. Shawn Vincent: Bruce Dern. Picture Bruce Dern with his hair all crazy, acting crazy like Bruce Dern does. This is his neighbor. Apparently, they'd been at it for years. There's a fence dividing their property, the firefighters out working in his yard. He's got a security camera out there, full-color security camera recording for some reason, maybe because he's had problems with his neighbor before, right? So the neighbors there. They get at it. I don't know if you can hear what they're saying, but they're shouting at each other. This Bruce Dern neighbor, he's on his riding mower, and they exchange words. I think there's finger flicking exchanged. Then the lawnmower goes off frame, right? Then it comes back on frame. The Bruce Dern character on the mower picks up this revolver. He puts it in the air, and he shakes it. Kind of there's waves that like, "Hey, asshole. I've got a gun." Shawn Vincent: Well, his neighbor, when he does garden work apparently is carrying his pistol that's loaded with 16 rounds, and he pulls it out and just unloads the whole thing on this guy. Couple of rounds hit him, and he falls off. The rest of the rounds hit the lawnmower. Miraculously, the neighbor stands up, walks back inside and calls for help, and he dies in his house. But all this is to say that brandishing may be illegal but is also the best way to get yourself shot. Don West: Oh, sure. Shawn Vincent: Right? Let's imagine in this case that Sinclair didn't have any intention to murder Byrne for cutting him off, but was trying to most likely really be the big shot here, right, by introducing the gun into it. You don't know who's carrying and who's not. I think Sinclair assumed Byrne didn't have a gun and that he had no control of this situation. Don West: I think that's highly more probable than that Sinclair had gotten out of the vehicle with the intent of shooting him. I think you're right. He lost control, and all hell broke loose. It's interesting when we're talking about brandishing because, picture this scenario if you would. We talk about things that are really a bad idea. But they aren't necessarily against the law. Picture yourself in a parking lot, and two people are vying for a parking space. One of them sneaks in and grabs it, and you're angry because by all rights, that was your spot. Shawn Vincent: He unclaimed it. Don West: Yeah. You had been waiting for it, and this guy sneaks right in front of you, and you pull right behind him, and you get out of your car and walk up to this guy's window to give him a piece of your mind. That's not illegal. You can cuss out somebody. You can yell at him. You can go up there and criticize his driving and say, "You low life, what a lousy thing to do? I hope your kids don't see what kind of a ..." Shawn Vincent: S.O.B. you are. Yeah. Don West: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a free exchange of ideas. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. Ideas. Don West: Okay. But if the guy behind the wheel, and if the guy doesn't threaten him, if he doesn't raise a hand, if he doesn't do anything other than yell at him, you don't have the right to use force in response to that. You can't hit him because he thinks you're a lousy driver. Shawn Vincent: Meaning you the driver of his car. You can't- Don West: Yeah. You can't reach into your glove box or on your seat and raise a gun to point out to him because you don't like what he says. Shawn Vincent: Because he's in your window giving you a piece of his mind. Don West: A lot of this stuff I think starts out even like that. A guy that's a bit of a hothead but not necessarily intending any harm or any violence and just- Shawn Vincent: Not necessarily wrong about the traffic, right? Don West: ... puts themselves in a situation where it becomes volatile, not intending that it will ever go anymore. But they just want to vent. They want you to know for sure what a jerk you are, and then one little thing compounds, and another little thing. Pretty soon, somebody feels a little bit threatened. Then, in response, to the other person feels threatened. Then, pretty soon, either it escalates to violence, and the person who hits first is wrong, they're committing a crime, or the person that raises the gun has now introduced lethal force into what's otherwise a non-self-defense scenario and is guilty of a crime. Shawn Vincent: So this makes me- Don West: That is brandishing. Shawn Vincent: This makes me think of the Ronald Gasser case. Don West: Wow, sure. Shawn Vincent: So we got to- Don West: What a road rage case that is. Shawn Vincent: ... New Orleans. It's Ronald Gasser. So he doesn't know that this guy that he cut off is Joe McKnight, a former Jets player, a local football hero who made good. Don West: And the son of one of the sheriff- Shawn Vincent: I don't recall that detail. Don West: I may be mistaken by that, I apologize. I thought even his family may even have been connected to law enforcement. Shawn Vincent: He's a local hero. But they didn't arrest Gasser originally. There was a lot of pressure to make an arrest. There is a racial thing too. Gasser's white, McKnight's black. The community was upset when there wasn't an arrest immediately. But notwithstanding, Gasser cuts off McKnight. There's a several mile, what the law enforcement described as a tit-for-tat road rage incident. They're cutting each other off and driving. People thought they were drag racing down. They had security cameras from multiple businesses showing them going till at least a couple of miles later. They come to an intersection where there's cars behind them. There's no room to navigate anymore. This scenario, no one's going to back up 100 yards. Right? Don West: Sure. Shawn Vincent: What we know is that McKnight gets out of his car and comes over to Gasser's vehicle whose window is down. There's at least one witness who suggests that Gasser said, "No, you come here." As in they were engaging with each other. McKnight comes to Gasser, leans into the window of the vehicle, meaning his hands, forearms, crossed the threshold of Gasser's rolled down driver's window. That's when Gasser says he felt threatened. He had a gun that he had already pulled out on a seat. He fires three times. McKnight dies. Gasser's eventually arrested. Eventually found guilty of second-degree murder. I think he just lost his last appeal. Don West: He has a substantial prison sentence as a result of it, I think. Shawn Vincent: Yeah, at least 17 years. Yeah. So McKnight wasn't armed. We know that actually there was a gun in the vehicle that he was in. He didn't bring it out with him. But this encounter, I don't know if Gasser was trying to apologize, like Byrne was in this scenario that we talked about earlier, but you've got somebody coming up to your window. You're penned in in traffic. You're strapped in with a seatbelt. You're very vulnerable. It's a scary situation. But- Don West: But apparently, Gasser rolled the window down. There's no evidence that McKnight smashed the window. Correct? I think what was really in dispute was what McKnight's intentions were, even if he put his hands on the window frame of the door. Was that a threatening gesture, or was he just sort of resting there as he leaned in to give Gasser a piece of his mind. Shawn Vincent: The appellate court just decided that that was not an aggressive gesture. Right? That that didn't because- Don West: So you could not respond to with force. Shawn Vincent: That's right. Because in Louisiana, they actually have on the books a law where crossing that threshold could open the door to a use of force incident, like a breaking and entry kind of thing, right? You've told me before that reaching into someone's vehicle in some places can be considered a felony, right? Don West: A very serious felony. If you were to reach through an open window and hit somebody in the face that could under Florida law be considered burglary of a conveyance with an assault or with a battery, which could make it a very, very serious felony, as opposed to a misdemeanor if you just happen to hit somebody -- a battery. When you combine that with penetrating the space of the vehicle, it's like reaching through a window of a house and hitting somebody. It's a protected space. So the crime is additional crimes and enhanced crime. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. But if you rolled the window down, or if you open the door, you're changing the scenario a little bit, aren't you? As- Don West: Yeah. It's an invitation. It's consent of burglary has to be nonconsensual. So you can't open the door of your house or your car, invite someone in and then claim that they burglarized your place. If you invite somebody into your house, and then you get into a fight with them, and they hit you, that doesn't make it a burglary. Shawn Vincent: Right. So we did the case out of Dearborn, Michigan, Ted Wafer case, where he shot Renisha McBride, where there's that threshold where the big mistake was that Ted Wafer opened the door in the middle of the night to a person who was pounding on it. He thought they were trying to break in, but you don't open the door for someone who's trying to break in, is the lesson there. So I think the lesson here, where we're always looking for the lesson for the concealed carriers in these cases that we look at, and the lesson here is you don't roll down your window in a road rage incident. I don't think anything can ever good come of it. It's an escalation. It's an invitation. Don West: You made a great comment when we were talking about what Byrne did obviously in an attempt to begin accepting responsibility and apologizing how that could be misconstrued as a willingness to further engage and is not going to be assumed as being a friendly gesture. I think that it's going to be assumed as enhancing the level of hostility, frankly, misinterpreted so easily. Shawn Vincent: So what I've written about this case, I basically called road rage a no-win situation for a concealed carrier. I think that the end, the only way to avoid it is to go. Don West: Even if you're right. Even if it's the other guy's fault. Shawn Vincent: Especially if you're right. Yeah. Just go the other way. Get out of the way. Drive conspicuously in the opposite direction to send the signal that you're not going to engage, that it's over, and then only if they've relentlessly followed you- Don West: I made the comment that Byrne should have run the red light. I don't mean literally run the red light, but maybe- Shawn Vincent: If it were safe for him to do so- Don West: Maybe if- Shawn Vincent: ... or to turn right or to ... Don West: Whatever it took for him to improve his position of safety rather than exposing himself to the risk of not knowing what Sinclair had in mind as he was approaching his vehicle. Frankly, if he got a glimpse of the gun, he would have to assume the worst at that point. Shawn Vincent: That sounds like a good last word on this case. Always a pleasure to chat with you, Don. Don West: We don't always know where we're going, but we eventually get there, and- Shawn Vincent: That's true about every place. Don West: I enjoy these conversations greatly. I think that sometimes we may cover the same ground, but it's slightly from a different perspective, maybe from someone else's eyes as opposed to the way we first talk about it. I have to think that this stuff isn't hard, but that doesn't... It's not complicated, but that doesn't make it easy, I guess. It takes a lot of thinking and visualizing and frankly being very, very conservative in how you deal with people. Shawn Vincent: Yeah. You approached me with the opportunity to work with CCW Safe and tell some of these stories, right, to communicate to the members some of the benefit of the experience that we've had together and what we- Don West: Sure. That's right. Shawn Vincent: ... see from here. I was excited about the opportunity because I believe in the Second Amendment, and I believe in the right to defend yourself. But I've seen, through my work, so many people get it wrong and people I think should be free go to jail for the rest of their lives because I don't think they had the imagination to understand what would happen to them after the fact. Most defendants that I've had a chance to work with don't even understand how a trial unfolds. When they pulled the trigger, they had no concept of all the legal nuances that they would face for doing something that they felt and had felt for a long time they were justified in doing. Shawn Vincent: So like you say, it's difficult, but it's not complicated. I think really what we're trying to do is open people's imaginations as to how these things actually play out, how the aftermath of these things actually unfold in real life through stories that we find from people who've gone through them. Don West: I think we learn by that. I know that when I used to study for a test, it was always good for me to take practice tests to put myself in a similar situation. That was usually more helpful to me in figuring out how to pass the test. I was going to take than it was just studying the material in a vacuum, actually looking at it in -- Shawn Vincent: What's the practical application that you're going to be facing -- Don West: Exactly. I think we do that a little bit. I think every time we expose people to the things that we've learned, that we've been exposed to by looking at this stuff and having experienced it, that we create an opportunity for people to connect with the information that they might not connect with if they just read a pamphlet or read a book on self-defense law. So that's -- Shawn Vincent: There you go. Don West: ... enjoyable. As always, thank you. Shawn Vincent: Thanks for talking. Don West: Look forward to the next time we get together in person or across the country. Shawn Vincent: Or through the powers of technology. Don West: You bet that, Shawn. Shawn Vincent: Don, take care.

How To Manage Big Milestones After Losing Your Mom – with Guest Christie Fiori Welcome to this episode of Life After Losing Mom With Kat Bonner. We’re joined by blogger Christie Fiori, of the blog Healing Through Grief with Christie Lynn, who shares her story of losing her mom and how she’s coping with her loss. If you’re a daughter who has lost your mom, or you know someone else who is going through it, this episode shines light onto a dark topic and opens the lines of communication for those who are dealing with grieving their mom. What We’re Talking About This episode is full of Christie’s wisdom that she’s found after going through her own healing process. Listen along as we touch on these topics: Stages of Grief For Christie, her sense of loss kicked in while her mom was still alive and battling cancer. She saw her dad go through a very different process and she shares her own journey in realizing that everyone has their own way of dealing with the stages of grief. Dealing With Milestones Weddings, babies, graduation, even starting a new job are all situations that bring grief flooding back. Christie tells us about her experience of getting through life's big moments without her mom. Accepting Reality There’s no way around it – life goes on without mom, whether you want it to be that way or not. Christie’s advice shows us how we can accept the new normal – life without mom. Self-Expression For Christie, blogging about her grief was therapeutic and gave her a chance to share her story with others. The reaction from the online community was not at all what she expected. Listen along for Christie’s moving story and advice for anyone who is dealing with the tragic experience of losing your mom. You can also follow her on Facebook and Instagram in the links below, and as always, follow the podcast’s Facebook and Instagram, and click to subscribe. https://m.facebook.com/christielynnnnn/
https://www.instagram.com/healingthroughgrief/ https://www.facebook.com/katgriefcoach https://www.facebook.com/groups/lifeafterlosingmom
 https://www.instagram.com/katgriefcoach/ Transcription: Speaker 1: 00:00 And I think until you accept it, you're not able to even start healing. Speaker 2: 00:04 You're listening to life after losing mom with me, Kat Bonner. On this podcast, you'll hear from other women who have lost their mom and discover the exact coping strategies that you need to get through the day and be in the best place you've ever been. Don't miss another episode of life after losing mom. Subscribe today. More information can be found at katbonner.com/podcast and if you'd like to join a group of like-minded women, head to Facebook and search for the life after losing mom community. Speaker 1: 00:31 All right. Um, so when I was in college or freshman in college, my mom got diagnosed with cancer. It was super, super set in. Um, one day she came downstairs and the whole right side of her body was numb. Um, they sent her to the hospital and it turns out she had metastatic melanoma and it had already spread everywhere. So basically one day my life was completely normal. The next, um, it was changed completely. Um, she got pretty sick pretty fast. She had a few months that we're okay. Um, but I mean cancer is cancer and she really wasn't doing all that great any of the time. I'm in about seven months. Exactly. From the time that she was diagnosed, she died. Speaker 2: 01:15 Wow. Okay. Sorry. I want to make sure you were done. I was thinking, Speaker 1: 01:18 thinking about if I wanted to add more Speaker 2: 01:22 it's okay. Yeah, there's, I mean all there really is to that. Um, I know that you are pretty open on your blog about, you know, how your mom pass and that sort of thing, like the type of cancer and if I remember correctly it was melanoma. So was your mom like attaining bed user? If you don't mind me asking, like did she get out in the sun a lot? Yeah. Speaker 1: 01:46 So my mom was actually like the picture of melanoma, um, before she got sick. Like it actually would be a joke. Like I would say like melanoma must not exist because if it did you would have it. And that sounds so stupid now thinking back, but like we had a tanning bed in our house. Like, my mom was a Tan Aholic. Um, in the summer she was outside all of the time. She loved being Tan. Like people used to joke like, oh my God, you and your mom must not even be the same race. Cause like she was like a dark brown all the time. Like she loved being Tan. She thought she liked being burnt. She'd lay outside until she was burned because she knew it would turn to tan in the winter. She'd be in the tanning bed all the time. Um, she actually had melanoma removed from her arm years and years prior that my parents just never even told me about, cause I was young and it wasn't supposed to be anything serious. She was supposed to get it removed and that was it. But apparently it wasn't it in that whole time, it may have been continuing to spread elsewhere and that's when she got diagnosed two years later. Speaker 2: 02:49 Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's so funny because I think too, like you live up north and I don't, I hear about, you know, that seasonal affective disorder thing and you know, I don't know if your mom had that, but it's just crazy to think how, you know, something that seems so small as melanoma can really not be small. You know? I mean it just goes to show to take everything really seriously. So I guess, you know, you kind of like sort of joked about it per se as you were younger, but was that thought ever in the back of your mind? Like, seriously that your mom might get skin cancer? Speaker 1: 03:34 I mean, I guess like you just never think something like that's gonna happen to you. And I never really knew. Like people always, like we'll say, had said to me when my mom was sick, like, oh, it's just skin cancer, but like it's not. And to me that's always what I thought. Like, yeah, even if she did get skin cancer, skin cancer, so we'll get it removed and she'd be fine. So nothing serious really ever crossed my mind because until my mom got sick, I didn't even know metastatic melanoma was a thing. I didn't even know people were dying. There was a version of skin cancer or dying from like, that was all completely new to me. Like me and my dad were doing research online after she got diagnosed and we had had no clue that that was even a thing. Speaker 2: 04:12 Wow. Yeah. I mean, I guess it definitely, like I, you know, you pointed out where you never really think that it's going to happen to you, but I guess it just goes to show how, I don't know if serious anything can be. So how do, I mean, I'm assuming now you probably hae all tanning beds, um, has your view on that really changed because you're the, I think you're pretty fair skin too, if I Speaker 1: 04:40 yeah. Yeah. So actually before all of this, like I was a Tanner too. Um, I, my mom would drive me to the tanning salon. Um, I tanned in the winter all the time. I hated being pale too. In the summer I would obviously burned pretty easily because I'm very light skinned. Um, now like people know to not even mention the word chanting better around me. Like it makes me so angry. I can't even fathom why people would do it after, especially after hearing my mom's story and like what we went through. But then I guess part of me has to understand that I never thought it would happen to me, so why should anybody else think it's going to happen to them? Um, but it does make me really mad. Speaker 2: 05:21 Yeah. I personally despise tanning beds. I think they're like just, I mean I'm all for, you know, loving the skin you're in. I know it sounds really cliche and stupid, but especially knowing if you're like already susceptible to, you know, getting some type of skin cancer or skin ailment or I don't know anything crazy like that. I'm not doctor, but I'm like, okay, I'm really not. I already know I'm like super white so I'm definitely not going to do this. Um, right. So would you say you like, what's the court word? Cod and like had any anticipatory grief when your mom got sick or was it all just kind of too fast? Too furious. Speaker 3: 06:07 Okay. Speaker 1: 06:07 Oh yeah. So it's interesting because I think me and my dad handles it really different and I think that I was grieving my mom while she was sick. Um, I think I saw it a lot. I'm definitely like a glass half empty kind of person. Like I always prepare for the worst, whereas my dad's super optimistic and always is thinking like the best case scenario of everything. And I spent a lot of time, my mom being sick, like reading up, like what, what it's like when someone starts to die or like the symptoms that somebody is dying or all the statistics of how long people live with metastatic melanoma. Whereas I think when my mom died, my dad was like, oh my God, like this is it, it's done. Whereas I had been getting to that point and really going through [inaudible] grief for a long time. Speaker 1: 06:53 Um, because in my head somewhere it was, I had already lost my mom. Like so much was changing about her that even though like of course I would have loved for her to be the miracle, it's hard. I don't really think that way. I kind of more of a, I don't wanna say a rational thinker, but I just, in my head I knew that this was going to be the outcome whether I want it to be or not. So I think that that actually helped me in my grief process more so because I was already months ahead of the game when my mom died. Speaker 2: 07:23 Yeah. I, I mean I like how you mentioned that it's as hard because in a way, man, you know, you can never really prepare yourself for this, but almost, and I would never really have recommend people to be a glass half empty kind of person. But sometimes you do have to be realistic. Right. And I could definitely see how that was very possible, you know, in your situation. All right. So would you say like based on this conversation, I'm thinking like, I guess, right, like when your mom was sick, like the hardest part was like maybe realizing that she was gonna pass, but like, you know, after that like since she's been gone, has the way she gone, you know, really been hard for you or do you got to mask ink? Speaker 3: 08:24 Yeah. Speaker 2: 08:25 Like what has been like you chagas you struggled with, you know, when she was sick, like struggled with actually like her being sick and the realization that this is real. But is that still, you know, one of the hardest parts of your grief process or is it had just spend like completely transformative? I think, Speaker 1: 08:44 um, like while she was sick, what was, it was super hard in the sense that everything we would do, I would have in the back of my mind like this is the last time we're going to do this. Even I didn't actually want that to happen. And I had also in another part of my mind like, okay, maybe, maybe she will live a little longer. Like, maybe we will be another time we do this. But that was always something that I was thinking of and that was in my head during those times. But then after she died it was wow, that really was the last time. And each new thing that happened became then like the first without my mom. So like one, they kind of like, it blends together in a way. I was grieving her when she was still there when it was the last time I was getting to do those things, even though I was in the moment with her. But then as time has gone on and it was the first time I had to have a mother's Day without her holiday, without her go on a vacation without her, it was a whole new heart, like compared to like at least those times where I knew it was the last one. I still at least had that last one. Do you know what I mean? Speaker 2: 09:47 Yeah. That definitely makes perfect sense. So kind of seeming like, you know, milestones have been a big struggle with just, I mean, even when your mom was sick, you kind of prepared yourself, it seemed like for a being the last so and so with her and you can kind of sort of mentally like prepare yourself for that. But when they're gone it's like, how the heck do I do this? Speaker 1: 10:13 Right, right. Like in my head I had thought I had it all. Like I was figuring it out as I went. And then when it actually came down to it and new things that happened out there, it really was like a whole new version of grief. Like although I did some grieving while she was alive, it was nothing compared to how you grieve after your mom's died. Speaker 2: 10:33 Yeah, 100%. Um, so is there like a certain milestone that you have really struggled with? I mean, Mother's Day is mother's Day, so I don't really consider that. Speaker 1: 10:48 Right. So that's just the worst day. Speaker 2: 10:51 Oh, pretty much. But is there like a certain like, I dunno, like maybe like graduation. I don't think you're married or have kids. So that's, you know, not necessarily relevant but yeah, even like the one that was after marriage. Yeah, when Speaker 1: 11:04 I graduated Undergrad or Grad School. But undergrad was harder obviously cause it was the first really big thing and my mom got sick and died when I was in college and there was a point where I didn't even think I would finish college after that. Like that was the last thing on my mind and I still did graduate in four years. So that was like such a big deal just because not only like everybody in the world was like, oh my God, how did you do that? Like how have you managed to get through this? But it was the first big thing without her. And I think it was even harder because it was the first time I saw my dad express any kind of emotion that it was the first thing of mine that he was going through without her. So on a day that like we should have been so happy, like his daughter's graduating college, I'm graduating college, we were like, we couldn't be the same kind of happy because that person was missing that we should be sharing it with. And who started that kind of journey with us since she was alive when I started college, but not when I finished. Speaker 2: 12:04 Yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. So you said yeah, it was your freshman year. I believe we that path yet Speaker 1: 12:10 sick my freshman year and then she died the fall of my sophomore year. Speaker 2: 12:14 Okay. So definitely. Wow. So we'll still, you know, pretty fresh when you graduated college too. And I feel like we're Undergrad is always harder than Grad school. I mean, I haven't gotten my master's, but just because you like kind of have more of a choice when it comes to Undergrad and masters, you're just like, all right, I'm going to go where I get accepted at this point. So the parents just seem to be like more involved with that. Speaker 1: 12:42 Right. And that's always the first big so of like being an adult. Speaker 2: 12:46 Yeah. And not to mention too, I mean undergrad cubs for Grad schools. So if your mom passes when you're an Undergrad, that's going to be like the first graduation feet without her. Um, so it just all kind, it's like, all right, you know, I made it through Undergrad graduation. Like when it comes time to get a master's or whatever, like the next one should be pretty like, I'll welcome the park compared to this one. Speaker 1: 13:13 Right. Speaker 2: 13:14 So, okay. Well I like that you definitely brought up graduation. Um, how did you like cope with, I guess just not just milestones in general. I mean not just, sorry, graduation specifically, but just in milestones in general, you know, and not having your mom. I think that's just something that a lot of women, I know that I've struggled with it. So when you like honor her, I guess, Speaker 1: 13:41 I think it's one of those things that like you can I say it all, I read about it all the time. At least regular days or regular days. Like you have good days, you have bad days, you go exit as time goes on and you go, you have less bad days and it does seem to get easier as you start to adjust to this new reality. Um, but milestones are one of those things that like always bring it back to the center of your mind. Like you could have had a good day, six months straight and then all of a sudden you started a new job or you graduate or something, something has little at something little or something as big as you're getting engaged or you're going to get married. Like those things are never going to be as happy as they were. For somebody who hasn't been through all of that, especially as like a daughter with a mom, like your mom plays such a huge role in really everything in your life that I think that that's something that just never truly will get easier. So I think just finding a way to try to incorporate her into everything. Like I had pictures of her on my graduation cap or like when I get married. I'm sure I will find plenty of ways to incorporate her into that too. But it's, I think it's just important to accept that never gonna be normal for someone who's gone through something like that at a way younger age than they should and still has all those milestones left. Like it's just never going to be. Speaker 2: 15:01 Yeah, you're very right. Um, and I mean it's definitely important to find ways to honor her. And I mean that's, you know, very relative to the person. But I think too, just finding that like little something, it's crazy how that in itself is like April to help you grieve and to help you cope with, you know, these milestones. And like I said, I'm sure having a wedding and having children is completely different with doctor mom because that's a very like mother daughter centered, you know, experience. But milestones are still milestones to a certain extent at the end of the day. And it's just, it's definitely important to just try to, I mean, mind over matter. I know it sounds really stupid, but like doing whatever you can, having like a positive outlook and not like dwelling that, you know, letting it, you know, ruin your milestone. Like even if it's something, I mean I guess the milestones can be bad or you know, negative but right, Speaker 1: 16:15 right. And that's a whole nother, another issue. Speaker 2: 16:18 Exactly. But just making the effort and being intentional about like trying to just make it one that is memorable and positive and I think I mean milestones or you know, we're going to happen for the rest of your life, but I do think that it becomes less of a chore and like you have to try less to be positive because you just kind of are because you're used to it as you go through milestones. Speaker 1: 16:47 Right. I think the biggest thing I could do, like really for anyone is you have to just accept that this is your reality and like I think that sometimes that comes off harsh when I say that to people and people like give me that like, like field start feeling bad for me. And it's like, okay, I get it. You feel bad for me? You can't imagine what I'm going through, which is my least favorite phrase because I would never have imagined at either. And what other choice do you have? And I find myself saying lets people all the time, but the point is is your life is going to go on whether you want it to the way it is or not. Like that's what it is. So there's two options. You can either accept it and try to make the best of it or you could let it just ruin everything. So I think the more and more of accepting that, yeah, this sucks and it's not fair. And I don't know why it had to be my family, but at the end of the day like this is my life. Speaker 2: 17:39 Oh my gosh, you're my soul sister. I love this. It's so true though. And like especially, I mean I guess I, I don't even, I couldn't even count how many milestones I've been through it that my mom like, I don't really think that's relevant. But I mean eventually and I feel like to is with the Undergrad, like or even graduating college, they're normally pretty close to mother's Day and you're like, oh great, Oh la, this is awful. Right. But just really separating like the two or even, I dunno, just like, yeah, having that mindset and realizing that like, you know, this is the way that it's going to be. Like, especially when it comes to milestones like okay, I'm not going to have my mom here for this and like you know that in advance, so what am I going to do about it? I mean, Speaker 1: 18:36 right. And that's, and that's not being said that's ever going to be easy, but I feel like for the rest of my life these things are always going to be hard and I'm always going to have my little pity party beforehand afterwards. Like that's all part of it. But you have to like differential. Exactly. All the lines somewhere of like, am I going to let this destroy me in ruin this moment or am I going to try to say, look at how far I've come since my mom died. Like, my mom would be so proud. This is awesome. Speaker 2: 19:06 Yeah, and I think it's very important to, like you said, to realize like how proud your mom would be a view because we often times at least I have, you know, oftentimes forgotten that and just thought about like, oh, like I wish she could be here, Yada Yada, Yada. But I mean like people should be proud of themselves for whatever milestone they're going through. Like just to get to that milestone regardless if they had to really do anything to get to the milestone. I mean, you made it through another day in the life of grieving the loss of your mom. I mean that's something still pretty commendable. So regardless of what it is, it's definitely something, I mean, I'm bad about it too, but it's stuff that's been like I need to instill in my brain, hey, like my mom should be proud of me or my mom is proud of me. I should be proud of me. So let's make this a good milestone despite the situation. And then eventually it just gets easier. You know? It's like, I mean, you kind of have to have the same mindset like each time one of them arises. So hopefully it would become, you know, more second nature. It's still at, and I hate the word easy because I wouldn't say like not having your mom gets easier but you just get more use to it so that it's easier, if that makes sense. Speaker 1: 20:40 Yeah. No, you just started to adjust to your new normal I think. Speaker 2: 20:45 Yeah, very much so. So facet of it. I think managing the grief, it's gets easier as you manage it, right. You go through life because that just kind of the nature of the beast. Um, so when you were mentioning like, you know, getting married or having children, have you thought about ways that you would, you know, honor your mom or cope with those days? Like I'm personally a terrified to ever get married or have kids cause I don't know how I'm going to do without my mom and I know that's not the right mindset, but Speaker 1: 21:22 no, you're right. Somebody actually answer, ask me that question. Um, on a question answer I did on my Instagram a few weeks back and more so like, do you think you'll ever get married because I can't even imagine getting married. And I started thinking about it and I'm like, you know, there's a reason why I'm the way I am. And I always say like, I'm in no rush to get married. Like I'll get married one day maybe or not like I'm okay if I don't have kids. And like I never really, I wasn't like that when my mom was alive. Like I definitely always saw myself like at least getting married and having like a kid or something. But like now it's so hard for me to even wrap my head around that. Like I'm at the age where my friends have started to get married and have kids are here like a few here and there. Speaker 1: 22:07 But like I've been in weddings and my cousins are getting married and having babies and I'm watching them all do it with their moms. And I'm like, Holy Shit, what am I supposed to do? Like my dad is great. Like, literally, he's the best, but I, I can't even like get through a conversation with my aunt who I'm super close with helping her plan my cousin's wedding without me like wanting to throw a tantrum and screen because it's just like, I can't even imagine like not having my mom to do that. So it's hard for me to even get there and picture what that day would be like because I don't even know, like, again, even try to fathom doing it. Speaker 4: 22:45 Yeah. Speaker 2: 22:46 Oh my God. I'm like, so glad you mentioned that. I feel so much less alone and it gets weird. Like I'll look on Pinterest though, you know, ways to honor your mom at your wedding. And it seems so easy. And I have, you know, this crazy idea, like I basically have my dream wedding and plan that probably either never going to happen in nonexistent. I'm like, Oh yeah, like I'm going to sing a song for my mom. Like I'm gonna write one. I don't know, just something super crazy. But when it boils down to it, like no matter where I'm at in my grief, like a mom, if I'm in the best place, like ever, there is no way, I don't think I would ever be able to like emotionally handle that. And that is the day that I supposed to bring such joy and oh boy, how to make that joyful will be very interesting. Right? And if the time comes, but ah, just like, I don't know dude. Speaker 1: 23:49 Right. And maybe if you're, when, if I was in that situation and close to the point where I was going to be getting married and maybe it would be different and maybe just because I'm nowhere near that place in my life, I think that way. But I've watched, I've been in three weddings now, all of which their mom's played a big role in everything leading up to the wedding. And, but then I watched my cousin got married without her dad and how, how hard that was in a whole way. So, I don't know if I could say like one loss is worse than the other, but I just think like in my reality, it's hard for me to imagine doing it as all I know. Speaker 2: 24:25 Yeah, absolutely. Oh my word. I get emotional life just at weddings in general. Yeah, me too. I hate that I'm not even super close with. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, if I'm emotional at a wedding of like a family friend that I see once a year, like Oh my word and, and I'm not saying I wish that like, you know, I had been closer to those like milestones in my life when my mom passed, but I feel like, and I could be wrong, but like for a lot of us who were, you know, were maybe younger, I'm like, if our mom passed closer to those times, like if I was already engaged, like my mom had passed, I feel like I would just be so focused. Like I would've been so focused to own the wedding that it might not have affected me that much. And that could be very wrong, you know? But that's just the way that I think about it. Like since it's been years since my mom passed and I'm already like on the road to healing like, uh, weddings, not anywhere in my brain. Speaker 2: 25:42 I was about to say, okay, that definitely makes sense. Um, and have a kids, Oh my word, I'm not even gonna go there. Uh, yeah, that, that needs episode. Exactly. I'm like, Oh, don't even know if I want to have children for reasons I'm not going to get into. But especially having, oh gosh, having kids about your mom, that just sounds really, really, really terrible. So I hope one day, like I can get out of that mindset almost because I definitely think it is a mindset. But yeah, and like you said, you know, I was never this way either before I lost my mom and I don't like, you know, to blame her death on the things that I believe. But at the end of the day, like me not wanting to get married and me not wanting to have kids, I really think manifested itself from losing my mom. Speaker 2: 26:39 Right. And that's something, you know, important to acknowledge that obviously a lot of women don't understand, but I'm not even going to bring that voice into this, but a lot of men especially to understand that. So I'm just like, all right dude, like you know, it is what it is. But having, I don't know, I just hope, you know, like our mindsets and just the mindset of people, you know who feel this way too. I'm not saying it's a bad thing if like we feel this way forever, but I hope it doesn't turn into something bad and I don't really know how to like control that to where you know, me not wanting to get married becomes like damaging. And I'm like talking myself out of like getting married when I could very well be dating somebody who I could be married to. Does that make sense? Like I have no idea where that one is. What are your thoughts on that? I guess I just liked it Speaker 1: 27:50 that and when you get to that point, maybe it'll be different. And I mean, and maybe things have changed and if I do get married, maybe it's not that I'm going to have a big elaborate traditional wedding. Maybe, um, maybe you just need, we just need to work for whatever version of your own, create your own version of that day. Not maybe not what was always in your head because that's just too much about them without your mom. But you could still do that, be happy, be married, have a light, but you maybe can have your own version of that. Speaker 2: 28:24 Yeah, that's very true. Um, so let's see where milestones, like going through mouse was doctor mom, what really piqued your interest in blogging? Click. When did you start that? Speaker 5: 28:42 So it was like a total accident. Um, I was in a relationship for quite a while after my mom and I broke up. My mom and I broke up after my mom died. We broke up. Um, maybe a couple of years later, I don't even know all the years start to blend together. Speaker 2: 28:58 That's what you were dating a guy and broke up. Speaker 5: 29:01 Yeah. So when we broke up, it was a few years after my mom died. It was terrible breakup, super unhealthy, um, uh, an unhealthy relationship. Um, terrible breakup. Like I was just a hot mess. And that was my first real version of grief after my mom died. Like it was losing this other person who was so important in my life after my mind that had filled so many of those voids for me in different ways. And Speaker 1: 29:27 okay, Speaker 5: 29:27 just took, filled, spilled so much of that. So I would just in a really, really bad place and didn't know what to do with myself. And I was scrolling through Facebook one day and I saw an ad for this site, um, pucker mob. I don't know if you heard of it. It's very started blogging years and years ago. A pucker mob. Yes. So, oh yeah, there was an ad for them, like, um, like that you could just share your posts and get them published on this site and whatever, whatever. And I was like, I'm going to write something about my mom dying. Like I always liked to write and I wrote, I wrote this blog post, I post or I shared it with them, they posted it to their page, I shared it on Facebook and I remember I went downstairs to my dad and I was like, I just wrote this blog for this site called pucker mob, like, and I'm telling you about it. Speaker 5: 30:17 And he's like, what? Like he did, what's a blog like? I'm like, no, like read it. Like tell me what you think. And he was like, wow, that's really good. But like people are going to see that. And I'm like, I dunno, I dunno, but like I felt so good doing it. So I started writing then what it was like to like go through a breakup without my mom and then what it was like to date without my mom. And I started like channeling my breakup to losing my mom and writing. And one day I woke up in this page on Facebook had shared my article who had like 200,000 followers and all of a sudden like thousands of people were reading my article and commenting on it. And sharing it. And I'm like, oh my God, Holy Shit. Like people actually care about what I have to say. Speaker 5: 30:58 And one thing led to another, I made this Facebook page, it started off as just like my name and I would link it at the bottom of blog posts and people would like it. And then next thing I know, there's thousands of people who are reading my writing and people messaging me from all over the world. And I started, I ended up making my own website. We're actually, um, we know nobody liked rights were pucker mob anymore. There's actually a lot of controversy with them then trying to steal our work and um, use it without our names on it and all sorts of stuff that I won't even get into. So that's when I broke out and wrote my own page. I made my own blog page and it's just really just taken off from there and become like the greatest coping mechanism ever. Um, people, I get messages every day like how people are thanking me for how much I helped them and save their life. And like that's literally what my blog has done for me. So it's just a bonus that I'm helping other people. Like it's, it's now it's become so great to see that I can help other people, but I really started it just to help myself through like a difficult time and find a distraction and outlet. Speaker 2: 32:07 That's so funny. I love it. I feel like a lot of these things do happen by accident and like it's kind of funny cause the breakup almost was you know, a milestone and you go through something Super, Oh yeah, let's say detrimental like Speaker 5: 32:21 the bad milestones, like hard. Then you have to go through without your mom, which are like, there's no way to find positivity that's just like an absolute double negative. Absolutely. But if that didn't happen now I don't know if I would say I would never have written anything but maybe I wouldn't have and maybe that was something that needed, I needed to hit a rock bottom and then find this outlet that's become like such a huge part of my life and something. Then this community I've created that I honestly don't even know how has become, I just hit, um, 20,000 likes on Facebook the other day and night was like, it blows my mind at 20,000 people want to read what I have to write and it actually helps them. Oh my God, that was not exactly, Speaker 2: 33:08 I mean, it's really crazy to think too that there's like 20,000 women. Well, I would think that they're, you know, or 20,000 women who are in our positions. I'm like, oh, okay. Like I thought I was so alone when this happened, but I'm so hot. I mean, granted in my immediate friend group, yeah, it was probably alone, but let's be honest. Right? Even just from the time that like I was in high school when they're going off to college, I mean I could count on two hands literally in four years how many girls that I went to college with who either lost a mom or I lost a dad while they were in college and I was just like a, my mind is blown. I mean I went to an all women's college so that was kind of a given, but still it just like, and I making something you didn't, Speaker 5: 33:54 you never would have really I think noticed if you didn't go through it. Like I now notice like people who I went to high school with her, I went to college, I'll see it on Facebook and I'll reach out and send them a message. But like if my mom hadn't died, like I don't think that that would've been something that phased me. Like how many people actually go through this? And you're right, my blog is a perfect example and there might be people of all different ages, like I don't know how many of those people lost their mom young. But the point is is there's a lot of people out there who are still struggling with that same loss. Whereas in our own world and our own friend group, like in my community, like I was the girl that's mom died. Like everyone's friends, parents, I'd walk into their house and for years they look at me with that. Like, oh my God, I feel so bad for you face that I just can't stand. But like that's like who we were in our little worlds and like from my little town, not a ton of people had gone through something like that. But in the grand scheme of things, so many people do. Speaker 2: 34:56 Yeah, absolutely. And like, I dunno, just to think that you know, you're able to help people who might not think that, you know, they might've been in your shoes, you know, not know anybody who has been through the same thing. Like being a small town in essence. Speaker 5: 35:13 He's like, I get messages like that all the time. Like I had no idea that there were this many people who could follow a page that have all been through this. Like I literally thought I had no one in there is all these people commenting on your posts that are saying the same thing as me and you're writing the thoughts in my head and it's, it's cool. Like it really is. Speaker 2: 35:34 Yeah. I had like, it's unfathomable. I mean to, and to think that there's like, they think the same thing and they feel the same way and not everybody is able to definitely, you know, put their feelings out there the way that you are and everybody is able to, you know, write about it and speak about it. And it's almost like, okay, seeing somebody who has found their outlet and s found, you know, some source of healing, you know, wherever, however, however you know, that was, it's like, okay, you know, it makes me want to go out there and do it too, regardless of, you know, how I do it and you see that it really is possible, right. Because I love you just pause. Um, because it's like how, I mean, it's so easy to get stuck, you know, in your way isn't, I know to, you know, when you go through milestones or you know, those bad things where you wish your mom was there at the end of the day, it's still brings your grief back and it's still, it's like, okay, just a constant reminder. You know that your mom isn't there and it just goes to show sometimes, you know you have to hit rock bottom, you have to go through something pretty bad without your mom, for you to start your healing process. And I know that's not an easy thing to realize but things much worse than what they are. Speaker 2: 37:15 You're right. And it's like things weren't really that bad. Well I guess when bad things happen it's like it's not the bad thing that happened. It's just so bad because it reminded me so much that my mom is not here to help me through it. Speaker 1: 37:34 Right. And something that you always had turned to your mom for in the past. I think that was exactly, Speaker 2: 37:41 but once you get through that it's like, okay I got through this. I can go ahead and I can get through anything. Right. So it's, do you find yourself like just blogging when you know you like want to blog or when you feel called to like stare like a schedule? I mean I feel like it's just hard cause grief in general is so like unpredictable, Speaker 1: 38:10 right? Greif has definitely not on the schedule, which his why. Um, my blogs are all over the place. Like one, one week you'll see I broke five times and then I won't write for three weeks and I'll just like reshare older posts here and there. But like when I get an idea like they come whenever, um, something, so smaller conversation with somebody or conversation I have with a patient at work, like triggers Speaker 5: 38:36 an idea of something I want to write about and I will just put a note in my phone and then as soon as I can get to a computer or at least just type up a draft in my notepad, I do. Um, it happens a lot when I'm working out. Um, when I'm meeting with a patient at work, um, a lot of inopportune times that my brain's working, but I can't like sit down and write right at that moment. So I always just have to like make a note of it and then go back and try to like revisit those feelings. But no, I definitely never plan what I'm going to write. It just whenever something comes to my head, Speaker 2: 39:09 I think that's important because it literally just goes to show how like you kept playing grief. I mean, I know people probably know that, but to actually have like a platform centered around grief and it's just like, okay, today I'm going to write about grief is very much so, you know, saying what's on your mind and saying how you feel, you know, Yada Yada Yada. Speaker 5: 39:33 Right. And so it wasn't happening right. When you, um, think of it like you'd be doing it, like it wouldn't be as authentic. It wouldn't like when I write, I just write as like what I'm thinking about at that moment. If you said to me, hey, write about this, I could do it, but it wouldn't be the same because it wouldn't be something I was feeling at that time. Speaker 2: 39:54 Exactly. And people would be definitely be able to tell. Um, and that's not really going to help people in their grief process. I mean, come on, it's just going to be like stage, so, Speaker 5: 40:06 right. So I've always from the beginning like made it a point to like just be super authentic. Like I will write posts when I'm, I've had a terrible week and that's why I haven't wrote or like to really just show everybody that I'm human. Like sure I'm a decent writer and people like to read what I write and I have this website and stuff now. But that doesn't mean that there's anything like nice about grief. Like it's all super real feelings and I wrote about the other stuff I go through outside of grief and how it all kind of turns back because the reality is like this is my life, this is your life, this is all of these people's lives and it's not pretty. It's easy. So I'm not going to try to sugarcoat it and make it seem like it is. Speaker 2: 40:54 Exactly. That's 100% the worst thing you can do. So let's see. I guess my last question, you know about blogging that I could ask, when you first started off to do, find it like hard, I guess to put your thoughts on paper or did you find that it took you a long time to do that? You know, has it gotten easier in that sense as time has gone on? Speaker 5: 41:24 Yeah, so writing has always been like my natural way of communicating. Um, I've always written, well, I've always journaled after my mom died, I journaled a lot Speaker 1: 41:34 after me and my ex broke up. I journaled a lot, so I always kind of used writing. I just never did it in a blog sense. I've always been able to like articulate words together, better writing than I am talking. I can just, I just, I've always expressed myself better writing, so it comes so naturally. Like I get an idea and I could write my own the whole blog posts in five minutes and go back and read it and be like, Holy Shit, where did that come from? Because it just, it just comes out. Like I, I was trying to explain all of those feelings talking. You would say, what did you just say? Like it would make no sense just like a bunch of jumble in my head, but it comes out when I write. Speaker 2: 42:12 Yeah. And that's, that's very important I think for people to like, you know, as they're figuring out what their outlet is, you know, and their grief journey or just figuring out ways, I guess to really express emotions. I think when people come, like when they think about that, they're like, oh, like there's only writing or talking. And I'm like, no, there's definitely a whole bunch of, you know, other creative ways you can do that. So definitely I've definitely recommended people like, Hey, pick something that comes naturally to you and you know, do people tend to like realize it, you know, pretty quickly because if it comes natural to you, it won't be like hard. At least the actual action won't be hard. Like actually writing for you isn't a huge feat. So I feel like that almost makes writing about grief less difficult because you're good at writing, Speaker 1: 43:11 right? Yeah, no, it's super therapeutic. There's nothing that's like a task about, if it was, I wouldn't do it. I mean, exactly. I enjoy it. It helps me, it helps other people. It's honestly just like a win win. Speaker 2: 43:24 I'm so glad you found that. Great. Um, so most people probably know like where are you like active on Instagram, you know, your Facebook groups. Do you just post your blog posts to there? Speaker 1: 43:38 So I recently made an Instagram attached to my blog. Um, I'm working on developing its healing underscore through grief. Um, cause my page is healing through grief with Christie. Um, I post a lot on my Chrissy Lynn Facebook page, but I also run the Facebook page. That's, I am a motherless daughter. Um, that's mine. And then, Speaker 2: 44:01 oh, the, I'm a motherless daughter is like the one that you created. I have to look that up. There's so many of those. Speaker 1: 44:07 Yeah. There are daughters. And then things, the one that's my mom is in heaven, a girl. Um, Danielle started and now me and another blogger, uh, run the page with her. So I guess I kind of am involved in three pages on Facebook, mine plus two others. And then I have an Instagram too. Speaker 2: 44:30 Yeah, that's awesome. I'll put that, um, Speaker 5: 44:32 in the show notes, I know a lot of like just from being active in, you know, the community and I bought, maybe community is the wrong word, but being active in like this, the same women you know, that are in our shoes. I see a lot of like them share, you know, your blogs and the group and it totally just dawned on me when I'm reading your blogs, like it says like the resources for, you know, losing a mom or whatever. Um, it said like those Facebook pages and I've totally should have realized that. Like you created those and I'm sure, well you are mine, a few or some just ones I found motherless daughters on Facebook is my favorite. It has like a million bajillion people who follow it. Um, oh yeah. I think every mother daughter on the planet follows that page. Um, and then there's another one. I link all sorts of things. I find people will send me one sometimes like, Hey, can you share this? Um, I make sure I like it first because I'm not just going to share anything. I want to make sure it's beneficial to people. But yeah, there's links to all sorts of stuff. Speaker 2: 45:38 Oh, cool. Well I will definitely include that. Um, is there anything else that you want to leave the listeners that can just be anything related to losing your mom or grief related? Speaker 5: 45:54 I think we've covered all, all the big stuff. Speaker 2: 45:58 Um, so his mindset, definitely something that you've realized it's important. I guess not maybe mine says the wrong word, but like realization of your regality that seemed to be the whole like, you know, backbone of this episode conversation. Speaker 5: 46:17 Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think, um, for a long time, I mean, I did it, I think everyone's guilty of doing it. Like you live in a lot of denial that you haven't accepted your reality. And I did a lot of that for quite awhile before I got to a place where I was ready to fully accept it. And I think until you accept it, you're not able to even start healing. You don't, maybe you start grieving when that person dies, but I don't think you actually start to heal until you have fully accepted it. And for me that was when I was able to finally write about it and put it on a piece of paper, um, and show it to other people on. It was when I finally decided to go to therapy. It was when I decided to finally sit, like tell people my story and reach out to other people who had lost a parent. I think for awhile it was like, yeah, I was the girl without a mom. But I was doing just not so great coping mechanisms to deal with it and not addressing what was important. And I think until you address what's important, you can't fully even start to even try to heal. You're just grieving. You're not healing, which is why my page is called the landing through Greece. Speaker 2: 47:25 That's so important because people don't really realize like you can heal through this and they're two separate things that actually meshed together. But it's possible. And you know, and it's also I think important too, I guess I'll like leave off with this, but people understand that you're going to be grieving for the rest of your life. But I also think too, that people don't really realize that you're going to be healing for the rest of your life too. Like you're not ever fully healed. Like it's not like that process stops because as long as you're healing, you're grieving. Right, exactly. Okay. Um, I was like, maybe I was like, I could be wrong. I could just be a very, no, no, that was good thoughts. Good. Okay. Thank you. I, and that's important to know too. I mean, it's like, okay, you can then focus on the healing and not just focus on the grieving. Like there's a light at the end of the tunnel. It's like pretty encouraging and crazy to see like that sometimes could be like what gets people through the day, like knowing that healing is there. Speaker 2: 48:42 So you're cutting off, oh, sorry, I didn't hear that whole last sentence by senior you now it's just crazy to think that like, you know that can get you through the day. Like realizing that despite the grief you can heal row whether you blog were just talk about it or write about it or you know whatever you do. Even if you don't really, even if you have a boundary Allie yet, but just knowing that it's not going to be, you know, miserable forever. Right. And I think it's important to just know that acceptance is the first part to yelling. Yeah, you definitely cannot heal. Personally, I don't think until you have accepted your grief, but that's a whole other topic. Right. Gotcha. Thank you so much for being on the show. Oh my goodness. This has been like a dream come true. Since my mom died, I was like, Oh my God, I love this girl. Speaker 2: 49:46 She is like my soul sister. Well you are so welcome. Thanks for having me. Hey friend, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Before you go, I have three favors to ask you. First, I wanted to let you know about the Facebook Group for women where we share our day to day stories, challenges, and victories. If you want to come along for the ride, head to Facebook and search for life after losing mom community. Second, if you don't mind leaving me a review and telling me how I've helped you in your grief journey, I would greatly appreciate it. Finally had to katbonner.com/podcast to access previous episodes and subscribe for episodes in the future.

There is a pervasive reality described and discussed by women who have lived in domestic abuse…it is generally only talked about after we leave.  We don’t want to accept the reality of our lives when we are still living in abuse. Here’s the one thing: You did not know you were an abused wife, significant other or girlfriend.  For months, years or decades you did not know, did not believe, did not accept that you were abused.  Your mind told you that you were the strong one, that you were Called to help your abuser live his life between the lines, that for whatever reason you were where you were supposed to be.  Right? Even after accepting that we were abused, it usually was months or years before we gained the strength, the support, the mindset, to leave.  We are used to believing our lies.  We still feel responsible for helping and supporting our misunderstood, angry-at-the-world abuser. The one thing you don’t know about living in domestic abuse is that most of us don’t allow our reality to enter our minds, our worlds.  Silence allows the epidemic of domestic abuse to grow, to thrive.  1 in 3 women in the U.S. experience domestic abuse at some time in their lives.  You were not alone.  You are not alone.  Listen to more podcasts, watch live videos and read articles at www.SurvivingAbuseNetwork.com

Anthony Argent sits haphazardly on a chaise lounge, its feet scuffed and slightly crooked from where he painstaking dragged it down into the caverns beneath the castle. Down here, he has not heard the impact that rocked the upper levels mere minutes ago. Here, in his secret chamber of reflection, the only sound is the music he makes. He ceases playing, for a moment, to touch the scars on the side of his head. All these years later and he still winces as he runs his fingers across them. He had been distraught back then, forced to shave his head to avoid infection. Of course, the youth of Behren immediately shaved the sides of their own heads in response. A fashion trend, or solidarity perhaps, but at the time he had believed them mocking him and shut himself away in the castle. The scars had faded in the intervening years, diminished from their ugly red lines to soft and subtle white ridges, and he'd kept the haircut. Perhaps the time to heal the interpersonal scars had come, as well. It had been a shock, seeing the figure of his nightmares in stark daylight, but Linnae was a man, not a monster. Right? Even if the sight of him caused Anthony's knees to buckle and mouth to run dry, he owed it to his new matriarch to do his best to play nice. Right? Unable to find answers in the moment, Anthony simply continues to play. This week on Roll Dice and Cry: The most important thing is to continue.Cast:Zachary Fredrickson (@obfuscatinggod)Mari Costa (@marinscos)Emily Riesbeck (@thebluevalkyrie)Chander (@chanderclear)Amy Sloan (@effsie) See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Is your freelance design business growing slowly online...or...worse, is it not growing AT ALL?!? Your limiting beliefs surrounding money could be holding you back! Be sure to subscribe for more design LOVE! Business tips + creative strategies:  http://bit.ly/2LGqRNE ..................................................................................... FREEBIE: Book Club Discussion Questions: You Are a Badass at Making Money by Jen Sincero Get the PDF download! http://bit.ly/2z2IOVo   WATCH ON YOUTUBE: http://bit.ly/2KTnl6d READ MY BLOG:  http://www.laurenlesley.com/blog #laurenlesleystudio  LISTEN TO THE DESIGN TRIBE PODCAST:  iTunes: https://apple.co/2xZIPsy Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LHe2TB    JOIN MY FREE FB GROUP: http://facebook.com/groups/DesignTrib...    Wave at me on social:  Instagram: http://instagram.com/laurenlesleystudio #laurenlesleystudio Pinterest: http://pinterest.com/laurenlesleystudio Facebook: http://facebook.com/laurenlesleystudio    Tags: You Are a Badass at Making Money by Jen Sincero | Law of Attraction | Book Club Discussion Questions | Book Review of You Are a Badass at Making Money by Jen Sincero 2018 | Design Tribe | Limiting Beliefs About Money | Removing Limiting Beliefs | Lauren Lesley Studio | How to Get Rich Solopreneur   TRANSCRIPT: Speaker 1:                    00:01               Okay, so we're officially recording. Um, do you have the ability to trim the ends and it with, so I'm sure you know how to turn the video. Yeah, yeah, I can. Um, I can edit it and I'm moving. Okay, cool. So I'll just send you the file via Google drive when we. Okay. Thank you. So. Hey everyone. Welcome to today's Webinar with Meredith Davis. I'm American. Why do you like to go ahead and introduce yourself and tell everyone a little bit about who you are and what you do? Yes. Hi, I am Speaker 2:                    00:35               Meredith Davis, merrily creative company. I am a brand photographer for entrepreneurs and small businesses and I mentor small business owners in their businesses. Um, additionally I have a podcast called [inaudible], which is for entrepreneurs and I host networking events here in Atlanta for entrepreneurs and business woman. So I like to say that I am a multi passionate entrepreneur with a single focus on helping women grow personally and professionally. Speaker 1:                    01:02               Awesome. And Hey, for those of you who don't know me, I'll just introduce myself quickly. My name is Lauren and I'm a senior, a textile designer with um, a company called deb geary. There a manufacturer that works with different retailers like target West Elm Pottery Barn. So I actually designed rugs and pillows for different retailers across the US and I opened an etsy shop in 2011. So I also do a lot of portrait illustrations, clip art and avatars are sort of as nice side hustle. So I'm really glad that you're here today. We're going to be discussing the book. You are a Badass at making money by Jensen Sierra. Speaker 1:                    01:44               And this book really kind of changed my life. I read it for the first time about a year ago and I listened to the audio book three times in a row, which is crazy. I've never done that with any other audio book, but this book really made me aware of all of my limiting beliefs surrounding money. And I think that as women and as for me being southern, I think that's impacted, uh, my beliefs about money a lot. So we're going to go into 10 different questions that you can also use in your book club or just for yourself, um, that kind of a or 10 discussion questions that really help us dive into the content and deconstruct our limiting beliefs about money. Um, so meredith, if you'll take the first question is, what are some of the things you were taught about money as you were growing up? Speaker 2:                    02:34               Yeah. So, um, in my family we were very blessed that my parents had great jobs and um, they never discussed money with us, so we never really went without and we showed affection and love by doing things together, whether it was, you know, going with a pedicure with my mom or go on a shopping trip or taking family vacations, that kind of a thing maybe aren't split when I was 13 and they never really put any of it if there were any. They never put any money troubles on my brother and I. So while we were taught to be grateful and understand the wealth of the meaning of a dollar and how to work hard for it, we also never really went without. So, um, I, I never really learned to budget. I never learned the true value savings. So for me money was just kind of always there and was a tool to do things. And while that is so great and I had a great childhood, I don't know how I didn't know how to live on a budget. I don't know how to save. I don't know how to really make a dollar stretch and those things that kind of counted against me in my adult life. Speaker 1:                    03:38               Okay. Yeah. And they would say for me, um, my dad passed away when I was six and my mom was a teacher so I would say, you know, it was never, like we didn't, weren't able to pay for the electricity bill or have food on the table. Like, we always had our basic needs met, but there were definitely things that, you know, I couldn't always go to the same camps my friends were going to and things like that. Um, and I, I kinda grew up with these limiting beliefs such as, you know, money doesn't grow on trees or even, um, you know, you hear like money is the root of all evil. Like things like that that I think that are just so ingrained into our psyche and I don't know, I mean reading this book really helped me kind of deconstruct those things and think about the fact that money is just a thing that people made up. Like it's not, it's not evil. It's not good at. It can be an avenue for both of those things to happen, but it's really the person behind the money that's um, you know, making, creating, like either good in the world are creating evil in the world or you know, maybe just kind of spending it however they want Speaker 2:                    04:46               off topic. But I want to ask you, what motivated you to read the book in the first place? Speaker 1:                    04:51               So actually a friend introduced me to her first book called you are a bad ass and we were always just kind of trading different books that we loved, especially audio books because we had an hour long commute to our jobs. So that was kinda how he passed the time and she was also the one that introduced me to my book club Book Club, um, where I also met Tony. So we were both like kind of avid readers and I loved the first book. It's just called you are a bad ass and it's just a really encouraging buck. And then when she was coming out with the second book, you were a bad asset making money. I was definitely definitely interested. Speaker 2:                    05:28               Yeah. I picked us up because I own my own business and while I am making enough to support myself, I want to make tons more. So I'm like, you, I loved your first book, but this brought me to such a different place than I was at when I first picked it up. Like, oh, she'll help me make more money in my business. But it goes way deeper. And I love that word, so I was just curious what your original motivation was for it. Speaker 1:                    05:52               Yeah, definitely. And I think I have kind of a similar goal. Like I don't, I don't have my own business as of yet. Like I still work in my day job and I love my day job, but I am definitely interested in creating more passive income streams. I'm like, I started my etsy shop in 2011 and I've tried to move a little bit away. Like I love serving customers but it takes so much time and because I do work full time I don't always have time to spend with individual customer projects as much as I would like. So I've tried to think of different ways to serve those customers but in a way that's maybe pre made like a digital download or something that they can just pay for and download and have what they need right away. Um, so yeah, so I've tried to, you know, create more like pre made avatars in clip art, things like that. Yeah. So how did you know the way you were raised and taught about money? Like the beliefs that you were raised with, how did that impact your beliefs about money now? And I guess what are some of your limiting beliefs about money are some of the untruths that you tell yourself? Speaker 2:                    06:59               So I think if you had asked me that before I read this book, I would be giving you a different answer, but because I've read this book, I've done a lot of um, you know, in her looking in self reflection on things and I think as a result of my upbringing I am and these are things that I'm telling myself that I think are my limiting beliefs. I'm a spender. I spend all the money I make. So even though I'm making probably twice what I made when I first graduated five years ago, I'm still living, you know, kind of quote unquote paycheck to paycheck. So because we were always just spending family and I never really went out and I never understood the importance of saving and having an aesthetic, that kind of a thing. And I have always told myself and I told my friends, like, it's one of my characteristics. I'm bad with money. I'm, I miss manage money, I have a pile of credit card debt even though I know better. So I think that's one of the limiting beliefs I've always told myself is that I'm bad with money and so I think subconsciously it stops me from making money because I know that I'm not going to handle it. Well. I'm telling myself and it's a block that I've been given. Speaker 1:                    08:09               Right. And do you think that that comes from the fact that you're a female or like maybe growing? I don't know if you grew up southern, but um, I definitely feel like that impacted some of my beliefs about money. Speaker 2:                    08:20               So I think it come. I'm definitely southern. We've ever been and my parents divorced when I was 13, so, um, you know, they're totally not abide by but like lean towards some traditional gender roles like most people do in the south. Were in one of those, is that in the family? The man who handles the money, but my parents divorced, I was 13, so my mom handled her own money but we never talked about money and I think that's where the biggest problem is. No one ever talks about money. I had no idea what the money situation was. If there were money troubles, it was never passed on to me. Lost my parents hurts. They're great. Um, and then even as an adult, you know, as you go into college, no one teaches you how to manage your finances. No one talks about money. I see people who are making money, I don't know what they're doing with it. Um, so I think that's the biggest issue is that it was just never talked about and then all of a sudden I'm making a salary, you know, all I know how to do is spend money on things I want. Speaker 1:                    09:18               Yeah, I can relate to that. I think also being female and that's kind of being told that, you know, we're bad at math or like you said, like the man handles the finances. Um, I dunno. I think we just kind of tell ourselves that lie when it's like we are just as capable, just as intelligent. Like there's really no, I don't want to say no excuse because I don't think it's intentional, but you know, it's just something that I think that as women sometimes we push ourselves down when we really shouldn't, like we are completely capable of not only managing money but of also getting rich or being the breadwinner and there's nothing wrong with that. Like how awesome would that be for you to be able to contribute to your family as much as you possibly can? You know, I think that that's definitely something I aspire to now as an adult. But yeah, I mean I grew up in a house where, like I said before, like we were told, oh, money doesn't grow on trees and I think I kind of like, I think one of my limiting beliefs is that I thought that in order to get rich you had to be lucky. Like I just thought that. Or like genius level smart, which also is a sort of luck. You know, like you, you either make a really great investment or you inherit the wealth or you know, you have an invention, Speaker 2:                    10:36               right? Speaker 1:                    10:37               Yeah. So I think that the biggest thing with this book for me was Jen sincero talking about how she was literally broke until she was in her forties and you know, she's talking about going out to dinner with friends and like ordering a water and being like, oh I'm not hungry. I'm like eating all the bread on the table because yeah. And um, and she got so sick of being stressed out about money and not being able to do things that she kind of set her mind to learning, okay, how do I get rich, how like, like there's gotta be a way to do it. So she just basically studied, you know, how to get rich. And she worked with finance coaches and she took some really incredible risks. I mean, I, when she talks about working with the coach that costs like $80,000. Speaker 2:                    11:27               There were so many times like you, I partly read physical and I partly list audio, just kind of mix it up to that part of the book. I'm in my car and I was literally driving around like, like she spent $75,000 on a coach, like even still having known all this knowledge that was imparted to me by this book. I'm like, that seems crazy. Speaker 1:                    11:48               I know. I know. Speaker 2:                    11:50               And then now, now that we're kind of having this discussion, one other money belief that I have subscribed to Dave Ramsey's. Um, so I went into credit card debt and student loan. So I started listening to Dave Ramsey and Dave Ramsey's theory is death before debt kind of thing, pay it, you know, don't ever have any debt. And so I listened to that for awhile and I subscribe to that belief system, but especially if you're considering making yourself more money and that subscribes to people in business as well, debt isn't necessarily the worst thing. And that's a, that's a shift I'm going to have to change in my head. Now she does say if there are other ways to do it, you know, do that before you go into debt. So healthy respect for it. But that's one thing I'm going to have to shift a little bit. Speaker 1:                    12:35               Yeah, and I think that, I think that with um, sort of all the cynicism around taking out student loans, which is I think totally valid. Like I, Speaker 2:                    12:45               I mean don't take out $200,000 for it, but you know. Speaker 1:                    12:50               Right. And also I just think that, I mean this is just my opinion, but I think that school does not give the value necessarily that it's charging for, um, because when you get out of school and you have a business degree or you know, an a bfa degree or whatever you have, you're not necessarily making a salary that justifies what they're charging. So like I think if you're going to law school or med school, sometimes those salaries do justify taking out the debt. I'm not saying that it's not still like a lot of money to invest, but you know, I mean with a career coach like she did with taking out $75,000 to hire a coach when she was making like 35 or 40 a year is insane. And she borrowed the money from a friend, which she was like, I would, you know, I was so out of my comfort zone, like I can't even believe that I did it, but like she, I guess was so pushed or so driven to make this happen that, you know, she did a lot of things that most of us would be incredibly uncomfortable doing. Speaker 2:                    13:54               Right? Yeah. That was. I mean I still think about that part of what I. I still can't believe that she spent $75,000 on a coach. I am a business coach. I charge people to help them do better. And I'm like, sounds nuts to me. But it is obviously paid off for her. Speaker 1:                    14:12               Yeah, definitely. Definitely brought the value, I guess is my point. Like rabbit where were sometimes school doesn't Speaker 2:                    14:19               our value of what's crazy and what's not as subjective. And that's one thing you have to learn to change if you want to be making money. Speaker 1:                    14:28               Exactly. Okay. So the next question is, is it bad to want to get ripped? Speaker 2:                    14:36               So again, I'm trying to think about my answer pre reading the book versus the Oregon. And I have always been ambitious and I have always strived for promotions and I'm striving to run a huge business. So I think that I've, I don't know that I, I never necessarily held any negative beliefs with the thought of getting rich, but host reading this, it's kind of removed some of the negative connotations about it. She says, she says, rich is being able to afford all the things and experiences required to fully experience your most authentic life. And that's what rich means to me as well. For some people that means that they're gonna, they're gonna make $100,000 to live their best life. For other people it's going to mean that they make $5,000,000 a year to live their best life. Um, and so rich is very subjective. And one thing I've been thinking about in the process of reading this book is the negative connotations that come with money or with being rich like rich people are snobby. Speaker 2:                    15:37               Money is the root of all evil. Money causes more problems and it helps. Those are people based. It's millennial pop. Me and being negative are mutually exclusive from one another. You can be broke and be a bad person. It's very rich and be that person. So it's all how you decided to handle the wealth that you acquire. Um, and for me I'm giving back and making impact is going to be a huge part of my plan as a good human being and the more money I have the more I'm going to be able to do that. Speaker 1:                    16:06               So that's a really good way to look at it. And I think that reading this book also kind of helped change my perspective on that as well. I don't Dunno. I mean if I'm really honest, I think that before reading this book, I mean I've always been an ambitious person as well and like always went for promotions. But I think that, I don't know, maybe I felt, you know, I didn't want to talk about it too much because maybe i. It made me feel like I was being greedy or you know, maybe we're in other designers are struggling and like maybe I want you to. I'm trying to go for a higher salary. Like, I dunno, um, I definitely was brought up where it's not polite to talk about money, those kinds of things. But then it's like, how do you learn? So I don't know. Speaker 1:                    16:49               I mean is it bad to want to get rich? I think that definitely not like post reading this book. I think that one of the things she says in the book that really hit hard for me was that, you know, if you care about making an impact in the world or if you care about, you know, you know, I don't know, certain charities that you really, really believe in or even political organizations like no matter what it is the best thing and the most important thing for you to do is to get rich because money is somewhat, it's not an unlimited resource, but almost whereas everyone has the same amount of hours in a day. And like you have to sleep, you have to eat, you have to spend time with family. Like you have other obligations. You probably have to work, you know, so like, you really can't give that much of your time to these causes that you deeply deeply care about, but if you put your mind to getting rich, then you are able to at least give, you know, basically not an infinite amount of money, but like a seeming like you could have more money than you know, what to do with to a certain extent. Speaker 1:                    17:54               So Speaker 2:                    17:54               I'm really glad that you said the word greedy because you and I have talked a lot about giving back. I think that's important to us as people. That's not all people. And that's okay. Um, and I think some of the negative connotations do and might have with getting rich is that they're going to appear greedy. Well, as long as you're not pushing other people down to get where you want to be and you're not ruining other people's lives, why does it make you a bad person to want to have nice things? Right? So this idea of being greedy, like if you get rich, you think people are gonna, think we're greedy. If you know you're not greedy, you can either be rich or you can make everyone happy by letting them not think you're greedy so you can have one or the other. Exactly, yeah. That's kind of the mindset mindset shift she helped you make in this book is you can live paycheck to paycheck and people won't think that greedy thought about you or you'll be living paycheck to paycheck or you can make yourself rich and they're gonna think what they're going to think, but you're going to be in this house that makes you happy doing things that you want to do and you know, in your heart you're not greedy person. You just liked nice things. Nothing wrong with that. Speaker 1:                    19:00               No, there's not. I mean, especially when you're making enough to go around. Like, I dunno, I'm not judging anyone else, but for me personally, I think I would feel like a bad person if I was, you know, and again, it's subjective, but if I was quote unquote rich and I didn't know, if I spend it all on myself, then I would probably feel bad. But if I'm able to, you know, donate to causes that I really care about and give to people that I love that that's a good feeling. Like, I mean, there's no better feeling than that. I think. Speaker 2:                    19:29               So you giving back is super important to me. I'm just, I want to speak to those people who maybe you're like, well, what if I don't want to give back? Like, like that's your thing different from my thing, but it's your thing, but that still doesn't mean that you can't make money. Of course. Yeah, of course. You make you a better person that goes out and lives in the world, then that's a better contribution than you being a grumpy vote for a person. Speaker 1:                    19:55               Exactly. Yeah. Speaker 2:                    20:04               So Speaker 1:                    20:11               can you hear me? I think it went up a little bit, but we're back. Okay. Okay, good. Yeah. And I want to add one little thing to that. Just in light of current events. I think that, you know, is it bad to, you want to get rich was the main question and you know, after reading this book and a lot of the, you know, aspirations that I've had and like things that I'm learning, I would definitely say no, but then you see things happen like um, like the suicides that have happened recently with kate spade and for gain and then it, it does kind of make me pause and say like, oh, whoa. Like is that what happens to people when they, everything that they set out to achieve and like, and I know that like, like you said, you could be just as depressed if you're broke or if you're rich. So it's not really like dependent on that. But those thoughts do cross my mind when you hear really tragic stories. Speaker 2:                    21:02               I think if you're looking to get rich to make you happy or if you're looking to get rich to fill something within you, that's where you're going to run into trouble. Yeah. And if you're not doing some self reflection and thinking about how to be happy and she talks so much about gratitude and this and that's an important mindset to have. So you're, if you're, if you're saying to yourself, I'd be happy if only I had a thousand dollars right now, or I'd be happy if only I was making this much money per year before you try to go make another dollar. You need to look at yourself in the mirror and have a different kind of conversation first. Speaker 1:                    21:39               Yeah, I think that's so true. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I totally agree. Okay. So what are your biggest fears about getting rich or about being poor? Speaker 2:                    21:49               And do you have it? My biggest fear about getting rich is that I will screw it all up and I'll lose all the money because like I said, I've had the habit of mismanaging money. I'm trying to change my language. Like she doesn't do it in the habit of Ms Dot managing money. And I'm a spender, a saver. So I fear that I will not be able to manage my wealth and to continue to see it grow. And then another fear that I have and you as a woman, as a southern woman might be able to relate to this, is I fear that I may emasculate my partner. He's incredibly supportive. He is my biggest cheerleader and like he has given me no reason to think that that will happen because. But because of the culture I was raised in and passionate or all kinds of things, I wonder if I start making a significant amount more money with him, is he going to resent me for that? Like I don't think he's the kind of person that would do that, but that's that little bubble that comes up in my head, you know? Speaker 1:                    22:55               Yeah. That's an interesting point that you bring up because I think that that definitely does. And has happened to couples. Um, there was some podcasts I was listening to as well where the girl for. I totally am blanking now on like a web business. It was, but she built this really big business that we would all be able to recognize and her ex boyfriend left her because he was like, I realized I don't want an equal partner. I mean at least he admitted it, but it's like she was like, Whoa, seriously, and now she's married and she's like really happy. But I think it is important to um, deconstruct those beliefs and also just like have those conversations with your partner and like kind of make sure that they are, I mean that they are encouraging you and supporting you in, in your class because you also don't want to be resentful if you feel like you're holding yourself back. So it kind of gets. Speaker 2:                    23:49               And like I said, he's literally amazing course scares, no sign that, that would ever work for me to acknowledge that that little nugget is still existing. Um, yeah. And that's one thing she talks about is that you need to acknowledge all of these things. You probably don't know that they are in your brain until you start searching for them. Speaker 1:                    24:12               Right, right, right. And are you holding yourself back because you have this weird fear that right? Speaker 2:                    24:17               Yeah. And that's a good point. You said, are you holding yourself back like the whole first half of this book, she's saying you're doing that. You're not actively saying, I'm not going to go cash that check like you're not. These are conscious decisions you're making to hold you back from making money. It's small things that you don't know that you're doing that your subconscious is making me do to prevent you from making money. So that's why it's so much self reflection is required in this book. Speaker 1:                    24:44               Yeah. I'm being really aware about how you speak to yourself and just even out loud if you're joking, she's like, I think she makes a joke where she's like, why would you say that about yourself? You're standing right there, you know? And it's like, I mean, it's true. I mean I, I don't know if I'm, I tend to like have a sarcastic sense of humor. So sometimes I do that. I'm like, don't take it too seriously. But I definitely think that especially the thoughts that we're telling ourselves inside of our heads, that's something to definitely watch it. Make sure it's nice to yourself and encouraging to yourself. Okay. So I guess I should answer this question as well. Where my biggest fears about getting rich or not being poor? I think my biggest fear about getting rich I think would be maybe appearing greedy. I'm or also that just like people would come out of the woodworks and want things from me for the wrong reason. Speaker 1:                    25:45               Not that I wouldn't want to get as much as I could, but sometimes people think that you have more than you actually do. I don't know. You just, you see people that have won the lottery and then like all of their relatives and friends and like someone that was in their first grade class who they've never talked to you again something and you're just like really? And I think I watched a show where this woman had won the lottery and she moved because she couldn't handle everyone in town. Just having that expectation and that pressure her to always pay for everything. And she, I think moved in like worked at a starbucks in a place where nobody knew she had that much money. So like those kinds of things kind of make you. Speaker 2:                    26:23               So what, what kind of solution or resolve or are you telling yourself to combat that fear? Speaker 1:                    26:31               Um, I think just to surround myself with people who, you know, really care about me for me and don't expect anything and you don't really know I until that happens. And to a certain extent that's not in your control. I think it is, like you said, just being aware of that nugget and making sure that I'm not holding myself back because I have some of these fears that are a little bit deep seated. Speaker 2:                    26:57               Yeah. Sometimes those fears or anxieties that you have, you can never truly them them, them and you know that they exist just as like your body's natural defense system. And that's the end of their purpose. You can still allow the thoughts to come into your brain without making it affect your actions and your, the rest of your belief system. So, you know, acknowledging it and naming it is so important. Speaker 1:                    27:23               Yeah, I totally agree. Just observe it and let it pass and just be like, that's not real. That's just going to pass and about being poor. I think my biggest fear about being poor would just be that, you know, maybe I had to work for someone that I really didn't like. I mean I love, I love where I'm working now, but you know, when you are desperate and you really need that money, then you really have. You feel like you don't have choices in that you don't have any freedom. So I think that would be my biggest fear. Speaker 2:                    27:55               I'm a very natural caretaker. I'm the kind of person that puts everyone else before myself. I just, I want to care for everyone else. I want to make sure they're comfortable and happy and my biggest fear is that I wouldn't be able to do that. And if it got to the point where I had to go into a job, I hated to pay the bills, then not only do I not have the money to support people, but I don't have the time or the mental capacity to support people. So my biggest fear is that I would be able to be there for those that I love because that's how I show love and affection is to care for others. Speaker 1:                    28:27               Okay. So the next question is, what is the greatest thing that would happen if you were to get rich? We may have touched on this a little bit. Speaker 2:                    28:36               I would be able to live freely, like we've mentioned, I'd be able to live and do all of the things that I want without second guessing it. Um, I'd be able to give so much more. Um, we go to church every Sunday and my church is constantly talking about these mission trips that people are going on and unfortunately that requires a lot of money to able to do that. And that's always something I've inspired to do. So I'd be able to maybe not only go on a mission trip, but I could sponsor other people who might not otherwise have the opportunity. I could give back. I could, you know, in my wildest dreams I could start my own nonprofit. I could, you know, my dad's been an assisted living place. I could put him in the fanciest, nicest place in the country, that kind of thing. You know, my, my dreams could run wild, but I would, I would be able to live free of the restraints of, is that in my budget? Speaker 1:                    29:28               Right, right, right. I totally agree. I think having, for me, like the greatest thing that would happen if I were to get rich would be, you know, a to be able to contribute massive amounts to causes that I care about in the world. I'm also just the freedom that it would allow me in either in my schedule or in creative decision making, that kind of thing. Um, I'm getting married in December as well, so my fiance and I have talked about having kids and like, okay, well, like where are we going to live, where are we going to put them in school? Like, you know, just not having to worry about those kinds of decisions and just being able to make a decision based on what's best for my kids or you know, the situation Speaker 2:                    30:08               kind of all comes back to the freedom to make a decision free of money. Speaker 1:                    30:12               Yeah, exactly. Okay. So how did religion or church influence your attitudes towards money maybe growing up or Speaker 2:                    30:22               it can be growing up versus now? I was absolutely raised Christian and we went to church and I was little and I went to Summer Bible camp. Um, and while religion has always been important to me, I kind of fell out of the church scene for awhile. Um, so I think that I was raised to be a good person and to care for others and that being kind to my neighbor is a very important part. So I think that's kind of where that natural caregiver comes in. So I don't know that it necessarily affected me as I was raised, um, other than just hearing other people means that you're a good person. But in the past two years I have fallen in love with the church and my community and um, it has become a huge part of my life. And I mentioned before, you know, we talk about mission trips and my church is moving into a new building and I'm so passionate about the work that they're doing, um, within the Christians that attend the church and in the community, the people that don't attend the church. So, um, being able to not only tie what I think is the appropriate amount to tie but to also contribute to my church and they're bigger missions is becoming a very big part of my why. That's awesome. Good to hear that. Speaker 1:                    31:36               I think for me, I was also raised Christian. I was raised Presbyterian. We kind of, we didn't go to church every Sunday, you know, we weren't like here and there. And then when I became a teenager it became a much bigger part of my life. Um, I was really into like young life and then the Wednesday night thing and then also some days, um, and that definitely impacted me. I would say as a teenager. Like I started tithing when I got my first job when I was 15. And then, um, yeah, I dunno, I think I created a lot of my beliefs about money from the church I was attending, some of which I still hold onto and agree that like, you know, tithing is, is sort of a form of charity or you know, that it can translate that way and kind of learning that practice early on was really, really great. Speaker 1:                    32:24               So there are some positive things for me too though. I think that, and again, it's really the way that it's interpreted, but I think that, you know, money being the root of all evil or some of my fears of being greedy kind of come from that place as well. Um, and I, that I kind of started to think that I don't know, like maybe like rich people were bad and in very simple terms, um, from some of the things I was learning at that time in my life and it was probably just my own interpretation of whatever was being taught. But um, but yeah, I think it definitely impacted my attitude towards money and feeling like I would be a greedy person if I did want to get rich, which now I definitely don't agree with. Speaker 2:                    33:07               Well, it's funny, I'm thinking back, um, you know, you picture sitting in a pew and the offering plate comes around, there's no one's actually watching, but there is some internal awareness like, uh, putting in a, $1 bill versus putting in a $20 bill. You can create money beliefs kind of out of that. But also like you said, being Christian and such, giving people, being rich kind of gives off the vibe that you're not as a giving of a person. Right? Even though we were discussing that, that's not true. I think it's an interesting that you pointed out that church can absolutely have an influence on people. Um, and one thing my church does, they don't pass around an offering plate. They have what are called joy boxes. And every time like the minister or someone mentions the word joy box, the whole congregation goes, Ooh, place throughout the things. So, um, they've like totally tried to take that idea of like, you have to give him money. If you don't give money, you're a bad person. If you have too much money or bad person, they've tried to flip that on its head and like turn the idea of giving money to the church. It's an exciting, you know, empowering thing. Speaker 1:                    34:20               That's awesome. I like that. Yeah. Would you say that money is a limited resource or not? Speaker 2:                    34:29               Interesting. So I think this is a tough one because it depends on which perspective you take. From a personal perspective, I think money is a lot of resource because I can make, I know that I can make as much of it as I put my mind towards right. But, and the global economy, political sphere that we're living in right now, finances and the economy is a very powerful thing and I know that money is in fact a limited resource and you know, countries being $5,000,000,000 in debt is a thing. But like I need to separate. I'm trying to separate that from this because we're not talking about making the country rich. I'm talking about making me rich. I think personally for me in my life, the way that I'm going to interact with money, um, it, it has the potential to be an unlimited resource. I like that. Yeah. Speaker 1:                    35:23               Is there. Yeah. I think that choosing to see it as an unlimited resource even if even if that's not 100 percent scientifically accurate, we all know that like there's a limited amount of money in the world, but you, but the fact that you can have more money than you know what to do with makes it in your psyche and unlimited resource. And I think that as I've gotten older and as I have started to make more money, I think that time has really become a more precious asset then money even, you know what I mean? Speaker 2:                    35:57               Yeah. As someone who's trying to scale her business, my two, I have a service based business, so I'm a photographer and I'm a business mentor. I can only give you so much time. So in that business model, in order for me to make more money, I have to charge more and more and more for the same amount of time I'm going to hit an economic ceiling. Right. Um, so like you said, time is, is the finite resource here, money is unlimited resource here and if he can learn how to work with those and balance them in certain way, I think that's when you have the potential to make money be an unlimited resource. Yeah, Speaker 1:                    36:38               I agree. And it's like, yeah, exactly what your service based. It's like you can just continue raising your prices, but then those fears come in as well. Like, well, is anyone going to still hire me if I raise my prices? I've dealt with that a little bit with my etsy shop, but as Speaker 2:                    36:53               I think there's always room for us to raise our prices and we're kind of constantly making yourself smaller so it's hard for us to charge more, but there actually is a feeling where people will stop paying for your goods or services if you phrase it guy. So, um, you know, eventually you're going to have to scale your time. Yeah. Speaker 1:                    37:21               Are you there? Okay, we're good now. Okay. So what would you, this kind of goes into my next question, which, what is more important to you? Money or time if you had to choose? Speaker 2:                    37:38               So it's an interesting question because we're having a conversation about money, but as we've discussed, I think that the reason we want more money is so that we can free up our time to do with it what we want because at the end of the day, if I could spend all day running around the yard with my future family and husband, um, with an unlimited amount of money, that's what I would be doing, you know? So, um, I think they go hand in hand. I think time is more important, but you cannot have an abundance of time without an abundance of money. Speaker 1:                    38:17               Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I like that answer. I would totally second that. Okay. So what would you say now as an adult as a healthy view of money? Like, now that you've read this book and you know you're an adult and you're, you have your own business, what does a healthy view of money in your day to? Speaker 2:                    38:35               Sure. I've done a lot of reading on finances, not just with this book but in how to manage personal finances and then how to manage business, finances. The one thing that they are all iterating is that money is just a thing and it does. When you have a little bit of it, it does control so much of your life. Um, and so it's easy to get lost in the thought of, of money, but if you can kind of take a step back and realize that money is just a piece of paper that you exchange for goods or services, it kind of takes away a lot of that power. I actually did a podcast episode on this with the bookkeeper and she explains it in this really crazy way and it just like blew my mind. But as Jen sincero mentions, money is just like a form of energy, right? Speaker 2:                    39:23               So if you can kind of take a step back and let it or I have taken a step back and kind of um, made it release its power on me, it seems way less intimidating. It seems less scary to go after. It seems less scary to lose. And I think that's a healthier version of it. Then when I first graduated and found myself in a pile of credit card debt, like, oh my God, money controls me, I'm never going to have enough of it, you know, if I don't have money in my life is crap, that kind of thing. Whereas now I'm like, money is just a vehicle for me to live my life. It's not the only thing that's in control of me. Speaker 1:                    39:59               Right. And I think that having the belief or kind of the faith or the trust that it's coming back to you. So like money is a flow. And I think that was something that I kind of picked up and learned was that sometimes when we hoard money, not that you, you should definitely have your savings and like be responsible in that, but you can also be out of balance with that too. Like I know I have a friend who was like, yeah, my dad won't even buy something on, on demand because you pay like $5 or whatever it is. And his wife is now like, you can buy that, like we have plenty of money, like what's wrong with you? But he's still in the mindset of saving, um, you know, which is good to an extent. But like I think that you have to kind of let that go and be like, okay, like I can spend money and it's going to come back to me. And it was just this flow of giving and receiving, giving and receiving like. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Speaker 1:                    40:55               Okay. So this is kind of a funny question and this is my last question. We can definitely dive into any other topics you want to touch on because I know that you took some notes, but um, I remember this part in the book where Jen's coach was telling her, you know, you need to take professional head shots and you need to do this and you need to do that. And she really didn't want to do it. Like she just felt like so cheesy and her coach stopped her and said, look, so you want to be cool or do you want to be rich? So that's Kinda my next question. Would you rather be cool or would you rather be rich and Speaker 2:                    41:31               be rich? Because something I've learned, I mean I'm 27 years old, so you know, I think between like 22 and 30, is it like a second secondary formative part of your life, right. That's what I'm hearing who you are as an individual. And one thing I've learned is like as long as I know who I am, people are always going to have an opinion about me no matter what. No matter whether it's in alignment with what I think or not. So I might as well be getting rich and continuing to know that I'm a good person, that I'm doing the right things because whether I'm broke or I'm rich or I'm doing things that they think are cheesy, they're going to have an opinion about me no matter what and their opinion of me should not have any bearing on how I live my life now. I know that's easier said than done. Like it's. My husband had a certain opinion of me. It would be hard to live with if I felt that was different. But um, you know, as long as you're surrounding yourself with people who love you and aren't going to be that way, then you should, you should be able to do what you want. And if you can go to bed happy with who you are at night, then you can go to bed with happy with who you are at night. Speaker 1:                    42:41               I totally agree. I mean, I pretty much feel like I've never been cool. So it sounds like, um, you know, I definitely experienced people gossiping a lot. Especially in my last job. There was a girl that wanted to be a model and so she had already left the company even, but people would kind of look up her pictures and be like, oh, look what she's doing, can you believe it? Blah, blah blah. And I was just like, you know what? I think that's awesome. Like if that's what she wants to pursue. And I mean being a model, like you're really putting yourself out there and be, you know, we have fears about. Or we've talked about the fears about wanting money and like feeling like, oh, people are gonna think we're greedy. Well, you know, with being a model, it's like, oh, people might think you're greedy, they might think you have like vanity issues or like you think you're hot shit or whatever. But um, I mean, yeah, I don't know, like I felt like people talking about her made them look bad. It didn't make her look bad. But I think that kind of thing definitely impacts people and I feel like I see people holding themselves back for fear of, you know, looking Tz or people talking about them or whatever. I mean, Speaker 2:                    43:49               part of the reason why I never took my business full time for so long was that I was scared that people wouldn't take me seriously. Um, and that's a real fear because if people weren't taking me seriously, that was going to be having an actual effect on the success of my business trip. So identifying those fears and you just kind of have to tell them like, get outta here, man, you don't belong here and you're wrong. Um, you know, we've talked a lot about religion being Christian and I think some of those fears that come into our head and it's, some of those are lies from Dayton and, and he's deterring me from the life that I want to be loving. So you have to, you have to find a way to manage fears that come into your head and, and learn how to live with them in whatever way works for you. Speaker 2:                    44:38               That's certainly individual thing and it's fearing what people are going to think. That's totally valid. You know, we're humans. We want people to like us. Um, I was actually listening to a podcast like going back to caveman days as women, if our husbands like died hunting, we would only survive if the rest of the pack, like just so like our survival instinct is to make people like us. So you know, it's normal to want people to like you and want people to be on board with your ideas and it's normal to it for it to make you uncomfortable if people don't like you. So don't think that you're nuts for those things, but you have to acknowledge that we're not paid people, we're grown ass woman and we're living our lives. And if someone has a negative opinion about you, it says more about them than it does. Speaker 2:                    45:28               Yeah, I think that's so true. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, that's really interesting about the caveman. Yeah. She said that and I was like, oh my gosh, that's a really interesting perspective. Yeah, it is. Are there any other topics you want to talk on or touch on from the book and you've highlighted through. I just highlighted like, so whenever I read business books, whether it's like motivational or it's tactical, I'm like, hi, like I have little stickies in here and I have my light it on pages, like I'm a note taker and I'm just trying to, um, a couple of things. So we kind of turn this into like a little mini book club, but for anyone who maybe hasn't read the book or thinking about it, um, these are just a couple of the quote and this is just for one page, so I'm not going to spend five minutes reading it can really resonate to anyone whether you read the book or not. She says Speaker 2:                    46:25               people hand over all their power to their circumstances instead of taking responsibility and changing their lives themselves. And I think that's a good way to sum up the book. You, if you are constantly saying, I'm managed money, I'm a spender, not a saver. These are things that I'm saying to myself. I'm constantly placing blame for not being rich. I'm circumstantial things. I didn't get a good education. I was raised in a poor household. You weren't blaming, you are not taking responsibility for your own future. Right, and I think that that's so powerful and she says you can have your excuses or you can have success. You can't have both. Yes. Some people have much bigger struggles and obstacles to overcome than others, but we're all given the same choice as to how we perceive our reality and that's just like so powerful. Maybe that's like probably one of those things I'm going to frame and put on a sticky note and keep in my sight line for awhile that you're in charge of how you live your life and yes, we were all dealt different hands and some people worked out way crap. Your hands on other people but you're still in charge of your future. Speaker 1:                    47:33               Yeah, I think that was one of my biggest takeaways from the book as well as that. You know this, this, the author was broke until she was in her forties and then she decided to get rich and she went about it, hired a coach, you know, and she, she's not. She doesn't get too much into the details of what we should individually do, but she's saying you need to figure out what you need to do and go do it because you can get rigid. I mean this book is more about your belief system around money and just realizing that you are capable really in any industry. I would say. I mean, you know, for me it's like the starving artist story was definitely something that I kind of grew up with because I always knew I wanted to be an artist or designer, you know, like that's shifted a little bit or evolved I would say. Speaker 1:                    48:19               But um, you know, it's like when I told people I was an art major in school, like, Oh, where are you going to do with that? You know, like in that you're like, oh, like you kinda have to take a step back and be like, really? Like, I'm fine. And I've even dealt with that recently where I was telling. I'm talking about my career too. I'm more of like a middle aged woman. And she started talking about her knees and how she was an art major. But then she went back to school to be a nurse because you can't make money as an artist. And I was like, what? That's handing power over circumstances. Yeah. I was just like, man, like that is so unfortunate because she's always going to have that inside of her and hopefully she enjoys being a nurse, but it's just like, no, like you can, like, you can make money in any industry. You just have to put your mind to it and believe that you can do it and then figure out, you know, and just understand that you can learn how to get rich. Like that was something that, like I said before, like I just thought that you were lucky. No, it's something you can learn. Speaker 2:                    49:24               Yeah. Last thing I want to say to anyone who's thinking about reading this book or is maybe scoffing at it because they're like a woman and like, I have a hell of your relationship with money or you know, they're like, I don't need a motivational book for me to make money. Well, first of all, if you're here watching this, you're probably not making as much money as you want, otherwise you wouldn't be interested in this topic. And she, she does talk about mantras in meditation and Universe and maybe in a religious person, I kinda had to like shift her version of universal intelligence to God and face so you can do that if you need to. Um, but it's not all about this. We will stop. She gives you practical tactical steps and advice to work on your mindset and to be more open to making money. And if you think that you don't have limiting beliefs, I challenge you to read the introduction and the first three chapters. And if she doesn't change your mind, then you don't finish the book. I'm like, you said, Laura, you can get this for free on. So, um, but I challenge you, if you think you don't have limiting beliefs around money, I bet you do. And you just don't know it yet. Speaker 1:                    50:39               Yeah, I found it to be incredibly helpful and I mean really, she's just entertaining as well. Speaker 2:                    50:45               So if you just listened to you like, laughter, makes sense. She's, she's, she's a really good writer. Um, I also recommend her original book. You are a bad ass. They're great. They're totally digestible and audio book. I agree. So give it total recommendation. Speaker 1:                    51:02               Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Five stars. Thank you so much for coming on today. Um, where can everyone find you online? Speaker 2:                    51:10               Sure. So like I mentioned earlier, my company is called merrily creative company that's in e R, R I l y, like merrily down the stream. So it's Marylee creative company.com for my website or you can follow me on instagram at [inaudible], creative CCO and I also have a podcast for entrepreneurs and small business centers called the merrily show and it can be found on spotify and itunes. Speaker 1:                    51:34               That is so awesome. And for those of you who may want to find me online, my website is line Leslie Dot Com. Leslie is within eye. Um, I'm also, I have a youtube channel that you can look up under. Laura and Leslie. Um, I also have a podcast and a facebook group called the design tribe by Lauren. Leslie. So you can also find me there if you would like to connect there. And I'm on Instagram as Laura and Leslie Studio. Speaker 2:                    51:58               Perfect. Thanks so much for having me on this as a lot of fun and I really enjoyed talking about it with you. Speaker 1:                    52:04               Me Too. Me Too. Thank you so much. We'll have to do this again soon. Okay, see Ya. Bye.  

Hi. Hmm. Hello. Okay. Sometimes I get really shy. What do you mean you accidentally clicked on it? It was divined. It's not possible that you clicked on it accidentally. Why, why, is my wifi choosing right now to freeze? What's happening? Reset. Oh my God. Hello, Tamara. Georgine, this jacket is so old. This is like my old faithful. But thank you. I love it. Hi, Tamara. This is like the other side of my studio, you guys. I'm here in my studio. My throne is right there. I nearly just picked up the laptop, and I was like, "Look, there it is." Okay, wait. Hold your horses. Or your wine. Or whatever else do you have. What do you have? Leah, I must admit that when you commented on my post about the ribs, and you said that's awesome, I was like I don't get it. Where's the pun? What's the catch? I don't get it. And I was like, "I think she's being serious." I don't know if I've ever seen it before. Not on a normal Facebook post. I had to read it three times. And then I was just honestly so thrown that I couldn't reply. Mermaid cushions. Are they? These are some pretty cool cushions. I'm gonna share this over ... Looks good, doesn't it? This is my backup set. You were fucking hungry. I was devastated. Devastated. I was in shock. I thought ... 100% I was like, he's joking. So, for those who missed it, I went to my favourite steak and ribs place for dinner tonight, where I go like, maybe four times a week. I really like ribs. And I know the restaurant manager there, Matt, extremely well. Of course. Because I go there so often. And he was like, "Oh, have you seen our new menu?" And I'm like, "No, whatever. I don't need the menu. I have the same ribs every time I go there." He's like, "No, we don't have ribs on the menu anymore." And I'm like, "Oh, ha-ha." He's like, "No, no. We really took them off." I'm like, "No you didn't. You're just joking." And he's like, "No, no. We took them off. It's minimum four." And then sometimes I might order them up as well. They don't even deliver up, except for me. Obviously. Anyway. I manifested the fucking ribs. Obviously. Obviously. Where am I? I'm in my house. Here I am in my house. Welcome to the show. Okay. I'm in my gangster outfit. Which just means like shiny black all over. With a wild top on. It says wild. Except I have my fluffy pink slippers on, because it matches the painting. By the way, how talented is my sister-in-law, Rachel? She's an artist, and I commissioned this piece behind me. She made it for me. I don't think I've ever shown it before, because I kind of got the painting delivered, and then I just took off, travelling. As I do. There's another one just over there in the corner. It's leaning up against the wall. You can't see it properly. No, well then what happened with the ribs ... I'll show you the rest of the room in a moment, because you're in a different side of the studio. Yeah, but I've got a top on under it. What's the problem? So, what happened with the ribs was, he's like there's no ribs and no steak. They're pink slippers, Jason. Pink slippers. Matches my pink hair tie. Yeah. I thought he was joking. It's like, it's a steak and ribs place. That's what it is. You can't even make this shit up. When the hell does a steak and ribs place take steak and ribs off the menu? The ribs and the steak, they took off the menu. So, obviously I'm laughing at it, because I go there all the time. And it's a steak and ribs place. He's like, "No, no. We're trying burgers and pizzas." I'm like, "Yeah, good one." He's like, "No, really." So, then I start looking around at people's tables. I'm like ... because I knew for sure he was just trying to mess with me. Because we always have a good chat. We're good friends. So, I'm like, "He's just messing with me." I'm looking at people's tables to find the ribs, and I'm like, "I don't see any ribs." He's like, "No, no. I'm serious." I was in horror. I was just in a state of being frozen in horror. What's the word for that? There must be a word for it. I was in a shock state. Tremors were coming upon me, largely because I thought I was gonna cry, because I wanted ribs. And anyhow, long story short, I already wrote it on my personal Facebook. Ribs were delivered to me. He went and got them for me. Form another restaurant, and brought them there. All right, and here we are. So, that's roughly the whole story. I'm really not remotely in the mood to talk about anything much at all, so I feel like it's gonna be one of those live streams which is gonna be just very interesting. Having a day of being fucked with by the shenanigans crew. Leah, I said to Alyssa afterwards, it must be topsy turvy day. And then she was like, "What's topsy turvy day?" And I'm just thinking, "Who raised you, girl?" What kind of child doesn't know what topsy turvy day is? And then I'm like, "Well, maybe I never told her." Because all this random shit just kept happening. Everything weird kept happening. So, then we make it through dinner somehow. I got my food, but the children's burgers that they always normally order had been changed into sesame seed coated burgers. Like kids burgers with sesame seeds on top. Has anybody ever heard of such a ridiculous idea? So, of course both of my little precious offspring, who are reared in a manner in which they have come to expect that whatever they desire will be delivered to them, forthwith, and it is. They were not impressed, shall we say. At the sesame seed topped burgers. In fact, it's fair to say they were appalled. If my father was there, he would've said, "Bernard." And I would've said ... Nevermind. It would've descended. Only very few people have got that joke. Maybe Leah. But anyway. We would've both agreed that we're appalled. He would've said, "How do you feel about it?" And I would've said, "I'm appalled." And I would've said, "Well, how do you feel?" And he would've said, "Well, I'm appalled." And we both would've said, "I'm appalled." Anyhow. If you can name the show, I'll be very impressed that I'm not the only one who watches weird stuff. So, that happened, and the sesame seed burgers were not a hit. Nobody ate them. By the time we got to the end of the dinner, and we discovered that they don't ... Okay. The one with the minister. The minister. The one with the minister, the British show with the minister. Now I don't remember the name of it. There's definitely a minister involved and then his off, right hand guy is called Bernard. And there's just this ... Surely if you watched Faulty Towers, you watched the one ... Minister. Sometimes with a minister. I don't know. Somebody knows. Tell me the show. There were books as well. Get your wine. It's all gonna go haywire momentarily. It's just very funny when my dad says it. And then both of us go back and forth. Yes, Minister. Exactly. Yes, Minister. Right. So, then dad and I ... It's nothing to do with [Bernicky 00:08:23]. Dad and I would just go back and forth, back and forth, agreeing that we're both appalled, and we just think we're hilarious. That's really the whole story. That's all you need to know. But by the time we got to the end of the dinner, even my eight year old daughter, she says ... Oh, that's right. Because they had no chocolate ice cream. They've changed the children's ice cream menu, to no chocolate. They've got strawberry, but it's like some sort of woo-woo strawberry, and, wait for it ... Hazelnut. On a children's dessert menu. These are your two options. Weird woo-woo strawberry, which can't even possibly be explained, even if you asked me to, and hazelnut. So, Alyssa says, "The only thing I can possibly consume at this restaurant from here on out is the water." She's eight years old. I was like, I'm dying, I'm laughing. And then we went to the grocery store and more weird shit happened, and basically I said it was topsy turvy day, and she didn't know what it meant. And then it was just ... I couldn't even, even, with the whole world. I had to go home and put the children to bed, and now her I am. So, check it out, because I'm gonna talk about the burn, and the pain, and I don't even really feel like it, but it's just the title that came to me when I was in the toilet. There's my throne, so now you know where you are in time and space. Do you see where you are? That's where I usually am over there. There's all your fancy lights, there's one big fancy light up there. There's another one, and there's a ring light there. I'm live streaming without a fancy light on me. Who would've thought? I just felt like sitting on the couch. I felt like everybody's seen enough of the throne. Driven by the burn. Okay. Where are we gonna go with this conversation? I was thinking about various forms of pain today. I was triggered today. It happens to me from time to time, and I always flip it straight into gratitude as soon as I get triggered by something, or I feel uncomfortable by something. Well, firstly I might have a little hissy fit, or crack it, or get upset, or whatever the trigger is. It's not usually very, you know, emotive in a big way. Not a huge reaction. But there'll be some sort of little blip, right? You know, maybe you see something online, or you see something out in the real world, whatever that is. Or something occurs to you, or maybe you say something, that's kind of like, "Why did I say that? Now I sound like an idiot", or now I look like an idiot, or maybe they now think that I meant this, and actually I meant this, and maybe they're analysing it, and maybe they don't give a fuck about you because they're pretty obsessed with themselves. But anyway, these are the thoughts that the mind does. And then you just feel that like, ugh. And I don't know about you, but sometimes when I get that feeling, I then can't remember why I have the feeling, right? So, then you know when you carry around this weird feeling of like, I know that I'm triggered and I know that I'm upset about something, but I'm now not sure what it is, so I'm walking around feeling kind of naked and exposed. But I don't know if I have valid reason for it or not, and I wish I could fucking remember why I'm upset or why I'm triggered. I just know that there's a reason that this feeling's here and I've gotta shift it. That might be just me. But I'd be curious to know. But anyhow, today I had a little trigger. It was like a little ... That's what happens. Energetically. You're just going about your day, you're cruising along, you're writing a blog, or you're doing your thing, you're walking down the street listening to client audios, whatever it is that you're doing. And sometimes happens, and it's just this kind of, uh. And all of a sudden, you feel like you're not on path anymore. You were merrily swimming in a sea of abundance and alignment, or seeking to as the case may be, and now you suddenly feel like somebody just grabbed you by the shoulder and pulled you off, you've kind of got this tug going on, and it's like, ugh. It's annoying, right? So, then if you lean into the trigger though, it might get more annoying, and it might get upsetting. It might cause you to feel inferior, not good enough, same thing really. Frustrated, annoyed, disheartened, sad, et cetera, or worried, or whatever it is. I used to try and avoid those things. Or I used to get super reactive, in the sense that ... Okay. I feel like I've forgotten how to swallow. Something's happening inside of me. I'm sure I'll be able to manage it. Fear not. I used to get super reactive when I would get triggered. Like I would get reactive in the sense that I would probably retaliate to the trigger, which was not always necessarily the most useful thing, particularly because typically, or often anyway, frequently, the person who's triggered you has no fucking clue, because it's just some random post that they put on Facebook. So, then I would retaliate though, via response, text, of minimum 2000 words. I don't mean private text message, I mean post on Facebook, right? You know when you do a Facebook post, you're just hoping that one person will see it, or some people will see, right? I used to do that. I would do a rant, or kind of a defensive post, or kind of a let me make my point sort of post. That is actually a really good way to avoid letting a trigger work on you. And letting it serve the lesson that it came along to serve. And all of these things come along to serve as a lesson, right? So, if we don't gain the lesson from it, or if we don't get the growth work that we're meant to get from it, then what can happen is we just ... or what typically does happen is we just keep on getting the same lesson again, and again. It just keeps getting served back to us. Okay, I feel like nobody's talking to me. I feel like I'm being insanely boring. I'm now getting triggered by the fact that I'm pretty sure I'm being really boring, and I don't know what's happening. I feel like I've never live streamed before, or I've forgotten how to live stream. Do you think it's because I'm on the couch and not on my throne? But I really like to sit up here. I think it looks fancy. Am I being boring right now? Tell me something you want me to talk about, because I feel like I've lost my way completely. I'm getting really squirmy inside of myself, and I'm getting kind of like ... Yeah, super self conscious. I just feel like I wanna dance and sing, and have some people around for a drink. But that'll be, maybe tomorrow night. Meanwhile, literally nobody's even commenting. However, the numbers are somehow weirdly going up slightly. So, I feel like you've all banded together and you're just refusing to talk to me on purpose, but you've got some kind of conversation thread going on behind the scenes on fucking telegram, or telegraph, or telepole, or whatever that app is that everybody's using without me. Okay, no. The comments are all over here. My communication chakra might be out of whack. Okay, there was no comments on the phone. All right, I'm clearly just a bundle of insecure nerves, because as soon as I don't get a comment for like 10 and a half seconds, on my phone, I'm like, "Everybody hates me." But they're all over here on the laptop. Okay. Thank you. It's only 12:12 here as well, Jamie. Except not really, it's 9:12. All right. You're captivated. Georgina says, "Everybody's captivated", and Addison says, "Everybody's enthralled." Carla says is my communication out of whack. I don't know, where is the communication chakra? I know where the heart one is, I know where the self expression one is. Where is the communication one? I know where the sexual one is. I'm all over that shit. Burn. Okay. You guys are helping me out. Thank you. I just didn't know the comments were coming over here. What's with that Facebook? It's trying to screw with me. What was I talking about? I feel revived. I feel like I've had an injection of self love and confidence, and enthusiasm. Maybe the injection of love came from you guys and not from me. Maybe I'm getting validated right now, and I need to address my own self love shit again. Instead of allowing myself to be validated. Oh, even the wine at the restaurant had changed to terrible wine. I normally get the grated pepper jack [Chiraz 00:16:32]. It's $25 for a glass, and it's amazing. And they pour a big glass, so $25 is pretty reasonable for an oversized glass of wine. But it's not cheap for a glass of wine. They didn't have a single glass of wine that was over eight dollars 50. I was honestly like ... where's the kind of better wine? I find it very scary, and I said this to the guy, who like I said I know. The one who went and got me my ribs from a different restaurant and brought them to me at the restaurant. I said, "I find these prices a little scary, Matt. They're a little scary cheap. What's happening? Where's the good wine gone?" He's going, "I know." The owner's just changed everything. They're trying to cater to a cheaper crowd. So, I couldn't even drink any wine at the restaurant. I had half a glass. So, now I'm just having some ... Of course, I only drink fucking Solo wine's Prophetic Wine. So, I'm having Witches Falls. I mean, ti's the best title ever for a bottle of wine, isn't it? Witches Falls Prophecy. I drink the [inaudible 00:17:36] as well. Isn't it much more fun when I'm not talking about the topic? Okay, let's get back to the topic though. How did I put the banner on the live stream? [German 00:17:44], no idea at all. [German 00:17:46]. We switch to German when we feel like it. [German 00:17:52]. Somebody did it for me. I don't know. But something to do with Facebook Creative. You could Google it, I imagine. So, anyway. It's so nice to wine. I know, I know, you cannot buy a glass of wine for eight dollars 50 in a restaurant, Jason. It's upsetting, it's unbecoming to the wine, and it's probably unbecoming to your own self if you would drink the wine, because it's gonna be full of shit for that price. It's just, the whole situation was just upsetting to behold. So, the triggers, okay. I feel revived. I feel a little concerned that I got validated by comments in a really big way, when I should only be validating my own self, so we'll work on that later. We'll work on it later. We'll work on it later. We'll work on it later. We'll work on it later. We'll work on it later. I'll give you some affirmations. Love thyself. That's probably [inaudible 00:18:45]. And actually I do. Yay me. And we already talked about that earlier today. I did the self pleasure blog. It wasn't really about self pleasure, but I was certainly thinking about self pleasure, and it was about self pleasure. The whole thing was about pleasure. Depends whether you mean masturbation or not, when you're talking about self pleasure. But that was definitely part of it, and it was involved. So, the trigger thing. If you don't ... Okay. If you don't learn the lesson ... Just making sure everything's in order because I'm getting overheated. If you don't learn the lessons that you need to learn ... All right. Now I'm clashing with the painting. I don't match the painting at all. This is gonna have to stay on. This is why I can't sit in front of this painting normally. My art clashes with the other art. If I would turn my back to you, I feel like what's on my back would totally go with that art. No. Nope. Okay. I don't know what country you're drinking you're wine in, but you cannot go around having a glass of wine for eight dollars 50 at a restaurant in Australia. It's not acceptable. If you're in a different country, I'll give you permission to have something for eight dollars 50, depending on where you are. Because sometimes wine here is expensive, right? So, if you see a glass of wine for eight dollars 50, that is a cheap ass, dodgy ass wine that you don't wanna drink, that's for sure. It's upsetting to see that price on a menu. Okay. If you don't learn the lesson from the fucking trigger, it's going to keep coming back at you, right? So, to ... Okay, I was frozen in a most unflattering position just now on my own phone screen. So, it was just a little bloop of a trigger. Exactly it made that noise, as I was walking about doing my business. Which was largely that I wanted to sit in the sun. That was roughly the entire business for the moment in time. And I thought to myself, "Ah, don't even need to think about that. Whatever, put it aside." And I did, for a moment or for several hours, or whatever. And then it just presented itself merrily back to me. Via reappearing in my Facebook feed, like a mother fucker. Just so that I could be reminded again of the trigger, and this time it was like, ugh. Exactly like that, like an annoying fly on your shoulder. And you're just like, "Brush it away, brush it away, brush it away. I don't need to know about this shit. You can mosey on along to another feed, not my feed." But then, then, then, I went and did some inner stuff, [meditationy 00:21:13] sort of zen situation that I had myself in, in the afternoon. You don't need to know all the details, and then from there, something occurred to me, which I found simultaneously fascinating and infuriating. Fascinated and infuriating. Which was that perhaps this trigger had been given to me for the opportunity of growth, which is always the case, actually. I think you'll find. I don't really care for the fact that these comments are not coming up here. Trigger sound bites. Exactly right. The lessons will keep coming back until you learn them. I'm just ignoring the comments about my top. It's not like I was showing anything anyway. God knows I've shown a fuckload more than that on my own streams before. Largely by accident. All right. Check out my black and gold cushion. How do you like my styling of my own couch? I styled this couch myself. I styled myself with my black shiny leggings, and my wild top. I won't flash it to you again since you're all getting so concerned about it. And I styled this black and gold cushion to match that, and then I brought this pinky cushion in to match it. Now here we are. So, all your lessons will keep on coming back until you figure them the fuck out. If you don't shift and learn from what you were supposed to, from each lesson or trigger that presents itself to you, then it's just gonna be like a persistent child in a candy store, just tugging on your leg, except in a much more annoying way and impacting you, potentially in your ability to make money. Something's beeping. Let's ignore it. Potentially in your ability to make money, or receive in other areas, or whatever it is. So, as I went into my zen meditation period within my day, it occurred to me, what if I was grateful for the trigger? Hmm? How do you feel about that? What was the most recent thing you were triggered by? Do you wanna tell me? Put it in the comments. Let's hear. What was the most recent thing where you were like ... Or maybe you were like fuck you. Or maybe you were like ... it really deflated you and it made you feel sad. That's okay. You can own it. We all been there. We've all been there. Share your triggers. So, this thing was just kind of uncomfortable and annoying, but I wouldn't say it was majorly triggering me, but it felt a bit ... It felt like it was throwing me a little bit. You know where you get thrown and you're kinda like, I was on my path, I was completely doing my thing, and just like la, la, la, happy. And now I feel like hmm. Hmm, do I need to think about that? No, I don't want to because it's annoying, so I'll put it aside, but then Facebook just brings it back to you on your news feed, helpfully. And then you go and you try and do your inner shit, and your meditation shit, and your zen shit, and you're like ahhh, and then it's like knocking on the door inside of your head. And so, it occurred to me that I could be grateful. I do indeed know ... Jamie says her most recent trigger was somebody's face. I love it. Jason says, "WB." I've got no idea what that means. Georgina says, "I think you know." I think I do. I've got to admit though, Jamie, I'm frequently triggered by people just from them existing, and frequently inside of my head I feel like saying something to somebody. Like, can you please just not exist near me? And that's 100% my own shit, for sure. Because I do it to random people who did nothing at all. They didn't even bump into me, they did nothing. They were just existing in their own time and space, like being a perfectly lovely, wonderful person, quite likely. Or maybe a complete asshole, but how would I know? They were not doing anything to me, and I'm just like, "Stop existing near me." Is how I feel about the matter. I suppose it's typically when I'm having one of those days, or afternoons where I shouldn't be seen around people, and I should hide myself from the world. Or something like that. Jamie was triggered by somebody's face in their email. That's awesome. Just look at you with your face, right there in the email. So, mine was may be somewhat similar to that. I was definitely triggered by a person for just being a person, and I was like, "I'm sure you're a perfectly lovely person, but I just don't care for your personness right now." And then you see your own ridiculousness, and you're like, "Just put it aside, just centre yourself and be a fucking adult, or a professional, or whoever you're supposed to be imagining that you're being for the day." And then it just keeps coming back and you're like grrr. So, anyway, I decided to flip it into gratitude. And it was actually a real thing, right? It wasn't like I'm going to try and flip this into gratitude, or let me find a way to be grateful for this discomfort. Was I grateful for the person? Maybe. Yes, no I think I was. It was genuine gratitude that came along to me. It was kind of like, ahhh. It was an Unagi moment, for sure. Like, Unagi. Right? It was a moment of realisation and recognition, like ooh, this is good. And do you know why I realised it was good? Because of the burn. Hence the title of this live stream. Let's say it all together. Burn. Okay. Lately my voice has been doing weird things. Two days ago it broke, like a teenage boy. My voice just broke, mid live stream. It was pretty embarrassing. And now I don't know what that was. It sounded like a small piglet grunting. Okay. People copying me, says Julie. That's a definite trigger alert. Trigger alert. In fact, even today when this happened, I may or may not have audioed my friend saying, "Trigger alert." And then I felt like an idiot. Spicy salmon roll. Exactly. Unagi. I thought it was salmon skin roll. Hmm. We gotta watch some Yes Minister, and some Friends. It's obvious. Yes. Okay. Got it. On the friends and the fuckwits. So, I just 100% did flip into gratitude, and the reason for the gratitude was that I realised how good the discomfort was. It actually reminded me in that moment of the feeling, or kind of the philosophy that I have around the days when I do like six to eight hour day getting tattoo work done on me, and often it's about six hours, but the longest I've done I think is nine. So, let's say somewhere between six and eight hour sessions, where we'll have like a five minute fucking break, two or three times throughout, and that's it really. And it reminded me of that, because the way that I've worked to get through that, and even to open up and embrace it, not just get through it, has been by opening myself up to the pain, right? Like I think the first time that I did ... I mean, I had like two little tattoos. One from 20 years ago, when I was 18, and one from about 11 years ago. But they were tiny. So, then when I started doing all the big work that I've now got all over my upper body, the first one which was on my shoulder, was a five hour session. That I just found so painful, I found it so traumatic. For some reason, the next morning my gums were bleeding like a mother fucker. I felt like I'd been hit by a truck, my body was so not used to it. I was just really whacked from it for several days. But I was fine overall. It's not like I couldn't function. But it affected me. And then the next time when I came back ... And I really felt all the pain of it, right? I just found it such a painful experience, but the next time when I came back, I guess I was kind of psychologically prepared for it, and it was gonna be a longer session ... I think that was the first eight hour one, and I really just decided I'm gonna open myself up to this pain, and I'm gonna embrace the pain. And I didn't know if I'd fully decided that in advance. I know I had kind of psychologically prepped myself in advance, and thought about it. But it was within the first hour or so of that day that I noticed I was continually pulling away internally from the pain, and just kind of like we do when something triggers us online, right? Or offline. Where you're like, ugh. You wanna avoid it, or it might just be a little bit annoying like that, which is how I felt today, just a little bit annoyed. But it could be a bigger thing, and then you feel really disheartened, or really sad, or really upset or whatever it might be. And so, you pull away, right? Or you turn away, or you kind of try and withdraw and you distract yourself with other stuff. And in this case, with the tattoo thing, back then that's what I was sort of trying to do. I was trying to pull away internally. You can't pull away physically, or you're gonna screw up the fricking art work, right? And all of a sudden, I had this Unagi moment. Complete fricking hashtag Unagi. And the Unagi moment was ... and if you don't know what an Unagi moment is, then just chat amongst yourselves and figure it out. Hello. I did say trigger alert out loud. I'm definitely not as cool as I purport to be. That's for sure, right? I might walk around presenting myself to the world as somewhat of a badass. I'm pretty certain it's not true, and if I was interviewed extensively on the matter, and required to prove myself, really all I'd be able to present as evidence is probably this jacket, this gold bling-bling cushion, and my tattoos. But probably get through on that. Just a little side tip there, just so you know. Total nerd. That's the problem. Just sneaks out from time to time, and it is what it is. We all have to live with ourselves in the end. So, anyway ... Oh my fucking God. Okay, my friend, who I said trigger alert to, has messaged me saying, "Oh my fucking God", right now. It just came through them. She must've had a trigger alert as well. We'll find out later. I'm not gonna read it now. I can just see the top of it. From time to time the geekyness just slips out, but I feel like I mask it well, and nobody's really quite certain what's going on. Is she secretly like a massive bookworm nerd? Well, actually that part's true. Who sits largely at home watching old episodes of Yes Minister with her father. Well, he lives in another state, but still, on an energetic level perhaps. Or is she a total gangster badass who's just out there taking on the world, and doing whatever she wants, and making millions of dollars? Well, the millions of dollars part for sure. Gangsta badass? That's just a freaking thing that you put on. Right? It's like stepping into a performer. Oh my God, should we get back to the trigger thing in a moment and talk about something about sex for a second? Because last night I was at an event about the bedroom and the sex things, and the enlightenment things, and being more sexual and sensual, and having more pleasure, blah, blah, blah. It was amazing, by the way. But people were talking about whether or not it's okay to be a performer sexually, either to perform to your partner ... you know, like to kind of put on a show. Or performing when you're having sex with your own self, which was an interesting concept for me, because it was like, "Do I? Do I perform when I'm alone?" I actually don't think I do. I genuinely don't think I perform for my own self during sex. I don't even know if I perform for anyone else during sex. I felt a little bit bad about it. I was like, "I don't think I do put on a show. I think I'm just authentic." Which could be a good thing. But then people ... But no, performing is fine, because then people were being like, maybe it's not okay to be a performer, because they were saying it's not authentic or real. And I was still trying to assess my own sexual moves and whether or not I'm a performer. Okay, definitely have performed at times during sex. That's for sure. I feel like I need to bring out the performer more, the more that I think about it. But I was certainly feeling that there's nothing bad or wrong with being a performer during sex, or at any other time, because obviously I perform all the time, and that's really what being a badass is. It's just stepping into it. And it's part of who you are. That's just one part of you. Be all that you are. Be a performer. Be the scarlet woman. Be the quiet book nerd. Be the person who embarrassingly yells trigger alert in a public place, if need be. So, it was actual gratitude, because I suddenly realised that this opportunity had been presented to me via the gods of Facebook. I'm not sure how many of them there are. The Facebook overlords, I feel, would be probably a more appropriate way to classify those people. Rather than Facebook gods. I have to rearrange my legs. So, they had presented the opportunity for me to be triggered several times over, because I tried to ignore it, and then the stupid annoying post just popped merrily back into my feed and I had to see it again. So, I was like fine. Okay, I'll ignore it again. And then I thought about it later, and I was like, "Well, or I could be grateful." And I could imagine to myself ... I thought about the tattoo thing. I thought about how when I learn to lean into the pain of the tattooing, the long sessions, I became grateful for the way that it was strengthening me, and that's how I felt about it. In that moment, as I flipped into gratitude. I was like, yeah. This is strengthening me. This is making me into a warrior of inner power and strength, and resilience. I don't think I used to word warrior, but I did send a message to my friend. I'll check what I even said, and maybe I'll read it to you if it's not too sneaky and cheeky. Well, it's kind of boring, anyway. I said I flipped into gratitude. That was the whole message. It's very boring. It's way more interesting the way I'm telling the story here. Because I just realised that all these things come along to teach us something and to help us to grow, and to become more grounded in who we are. Right? So, maybe you see somebody's post, maybe somebody's triggered by me right now. That would be an unusual thing, and probably the first time that it's ever happened, I would imagine. Somebody should write me a letter and tell me about it, for sure. Don't worry, they already do. All the fucking time. Usually when they sign up as clients, and they tell me how much they couldn't stand me for three years prior to that. Not everyone, not everyone. Where's my comments? I'm getting no comments on my phone. Adidas and Lycra do go together. I have the matching pants for this jacket, you guys. I can go full gangsta. I wore them to a night club opening. It wasn't a night club opening, it was an app launch at Bootsy Bellows on Sunset Boulevard. A year ago. They're like 18 months old, this jacket. How embarrassing. Whatever. But, old fashion. But always fashion. There's no point in time at which the three stripes are not in. But I do have the matching pants for them. They're low rider pants though. They're super low rider. You gotta stay as upright as a pin if you wear those pants. If you bend yourself just a little bit, your whole ass is hanging out the back end, which may or may not be a good thing. But it's an annoying thing when it's a windy evening and you're trying to wear some Tonne Ford shoes with a whole bling-bling black shiny Adidas, slash Adidas. Whatever it's supposed to be, get up going on, and you've got a bunch of bling chains on, and your hair in a top knot because somebody said that it looks fancy. I'm just hypothesising. I'm not saying that that actually happened. So, anyhow, it's always a fricking opportunity to grow and become stronger, and grounded in who you are. If you ignore the triggers, when somebody triggers you ... That's right. I was talking about maybe I'm triggering somebody. I'm triggering people all the fucking time. They do seem to enjoy telling me about it. Well, sometimes my existing clients tell me the things that other people say about me, in enclosed Facebook groups or message threads, or wherever they are. And I guess shocked and appalled, and then other times people tell me themselves how much I annoy the fuck out of them for how ever many years before they fell just wildly and haplessly, and helplessly in love with me. You're welcome. I understand, because sometimes I trigger myself as well, for sure. Sometimes when I watch my own replays, and I really was in full performer mode, sometimes I smack talk myself. But in a total self love way, because I do love and accept myself. I really just nailed that shit last year, actually. After much work prior to that. So, sometimes though, I do smack talk myself. Sometimes I'm like, "Really? Like you really think that that was a smart move? Look at you. Who do you think you are?" But then I think what's happening is it's the performer within the performer, because I think when I'm smack talking myself, that actually what I'm doing is I'm kind of simultaneously playing several Seinfeld-esque type roles at one. So, kind of the voice of me that's smack talking the other version of me who was already on the live stream, that one is that new one who is doing the smack talking, is now quite impressed with her own hilarity and wittiness, and so she's becoming the performer, smack talking the other one. So, then I get super clever at telling my own previous self off. It's kind of confusing, but if you think about it, it's very logical and entirely normal, I'm sure. But anyway, I do. I'll watch my own live stream replays probably half the time, because I have no idea what I fucking said, and then I like to see the comments coming in and what people had to say that I was missing. And it's not uncommon that I'll just be like, "Oh my God, I can't even look at this. This is so embarrassing to look at." Or it's annoying. There's been times for sure, many times, where I'm like, "Would you just shut up? Why are you talking so much? Can you ever possibly get to the point?" Or if it pops on to my screen and starts talking, I'm like, "My God, she's so annoying. She just keeps talking, and talking, and talking." But I say it all with a smile, because I just still also do love it. And I accept it. And I just either way, and nevermind, I keep on allowing it out. So, there you have it. I think that's everything I came here to say. I'm not remote ... Oh my God. I've only had this one glass of wine, because I didn't even drink the wine at dinner, and I've already forgotten how to talk. I'm not ... What's happening? Told you it was topsy turvy day. I'm not remotely impressed with my own ... No, with Facebook's inability to show me the comments on my phone. It's kind of annoying having to look over here all the time. So, the driven by the burn thing was simply, it is exciting to feel the pain, I think, right? I don't know. I get off on it. Not in a sexual way. Sorry, if anybody was hoping that. Nope. Not actually. In a life way, for sure. I find it exciting and fun, and definitely there's some ego in there for sure, I would say, about being able to take it, and enjoy it, and thrive on it, and I feel very self satisfied that I know that I'm getting stronger in situations where other people would flake out, or run away, and do exactly that, and I see them do that, right? So, I feel satisfied with myself when I do like a six to eight hour session at the tattoo studio. I feel glad it's over, but I feel like I became stronger, and I feel proud of myself. And same with many situations in business and life. Many things that I've persevered through, which I just know other people wouldn't. And then I feel really good about myself. And this particular little minor situation today, which was sort of being relatively easy. I was gonna say so easy to brush aside and forget about as well, because it wasn't anything that's really even remotely connected to my world, but then it's so easy ... sort of so easy to brush aside, because really, things do keep circling back if we brush them aside when they kind of knocked on the door for a reason. And instead, I allowed myself to feel it, and allowed myself to feel the discomfort, and to feel that trigger feeling, and to feel kind of that slight annoyance, or whatever it was, and really it's all fear. If we're being triggered by something and we're feeling discomfort or annoyance, or frustration, or whatever it is, being disheartened, it's actually all fear. It's actually all ... it all boils down in the end to some sort of version of maybe I'm not good enough, maybe I couldn't do that, or be like that, or show up like that, or whatever it might be, right? I think even when we're ... Even Jamie said, she was triggered by someone's face. Where in there is there sometimes around how somebody else is showing up? And how you wanna show up, right? Just for example. So, for me, I find it really helpful and I think it was a good choice, to allow myself to then feel all of those feelings, and then to be like, "Oh, this is so good", because just like when I feel all the feelings of the tattoo work, it allows me to grow stronger, because I increase my ability to withstand that so called pain, I guess. Or I realise that it's not as painful as I thought, so I change my perceptions, I adapt, I do all these amazing things altogether. It was kind of the same thing, right? I changed my perceptions, I adapt, I felt myself grow stronger, I felt myself grow more grounded in who I was, and so instead of something that was like a burn or a pain, or a discomfort, being that, and being a supposed bad thing or a negative thing, it became a positive thing, and it became something that was exciting, and that I genuinely felt grateful for that opportunity through the day to kind of heal or shift sometimes inside of myself, and become even more connected to my own self, my own soul, my own truth about who I am and how I get to show up in the world, right? And I just think man, we have all these continual opportunities through the day and through, well, every day, and every week, and every month, and just day in and day out, to grown and to become stronger, better humans, more powerful entrepreneurs, more centred, more soul connected, et cetera. And if you allow each of those opportunities to be what they are meant to be, and what they came here to be, you become this ... Honestly, you just become an unstoppable success machine. Which I believe is how it's meant to be. I feel that that is meant to be the human experience, right? So, I don't think that my, I guess, mindset, which is something that I've cultivated to a strong level, or however you wanna term it, for many years now. I don't think that it's anything special in a sense that it's not ... it is special, and it's special to me, and it's unique, and unique to me as well, but it's available for everybody, right? Yet when I go on occasion into environments with people who are not, I'm gonna say, as committed to their growth work as myself, or my clients, or my friends, actually it tends to shock me because it's quite rare for me to really connect in a deep way, or spend an extended period of time with people who don't kind of think and grow all day, every day. And continually up-level themselves. So, obviously I would go out in the evening to places socially, or restaurants, or the beach, or an airport, or wherever. Clearly I'm around people all the time, but I would say that it's rare to be in a situation where you really hear a lot from people who are not like us, right? I don't know if you relate to this. But it's happened to me once or twice recently, and I found it quite shocking. Like eye opening, and almost like wow, I think I've become super naïve about how the world works. I think I've forgotten how little growth work the vast majority of people do, and how rare it is to actually continually up-level every single day, which is what I do, what my clients do, what my friends do. And I honestly think that 24 hours a day I'm doing mindset work and I'm up-leveling and growing. It's just become automatic, right? So, for us, if you relate, for us then every single thing that comes along, becomes a growth opportunity and a healing opportunity, and I know with my friends and with my clients, and it's like a continual conversation every day, where it's like oh my God, this happened, and I felt this way, and it was like ugh, and then it's like hmm, and what I realised is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Even random shit, like little road rage, right? I don't even mean something major, or maybe running late, or okay. I'll give you an example. Last week, I was kind of snarky with the new babysitter who came along. A babysitter that I hired from an agency, and she ended up being like 20 minutes late, and I was going to a movie with my sister. And I was like, "I'm gonna miss the start of the movie." She's like ... Oh no, she was 30 minutes late by the time she got here upstairs. I kind of, I was [restrainededly 00:46:57] polite, but I kind of deliberately made my voice in a way where I showed that I was annoyed. And I knew that I was deliberately, I wanted her to know that I was annoyed at her, right? So, I was kind of being understanding, but in a snooty snort of a way. And then when I left, I felt bad about it, and I kind of ... I was really nice to her right before I left, and I sort of tried to smooth over what I felt was my own bad attitude. And now, this is an example, right? Because then I left, and so I spent the drive to the movie theatre kind of going over it in my head, and then as I walk through the car park, I audio my friend. I'm like, "Right. So, here's what happened. Do you feel that I was in a state of ego? Or do you feel that it's fair enough for me to show my boundaries, and show what's acceptable to me when somebody's late? But then again, here's why I would be compassionate to her understanding of her being late, because of whatever such and such reason that I was giving her kind of like an out for being late." She wasn't just randomly late. There was like a whole confusion thing that had happened. But it ended up being probably by the time I'd gone back and forth on audios with my friend about this, and then I spoke with my sister about it as well, while we had dinner, or while we had a drink or whatever. It ended up being probably 30 minutes of an analysis around this situation, which was not like fucking naval gazing, right? It was healing and correcting and understanding something like was I in ego? Or this is a trait that I didn't really feel that was attractive in myself, and then I was like, "Hmm, I notice that I do that from time to time." I used to do it a lot. I've shifted it massively, but let's say that you wait for ages in a queue, and then you get to the front of the queue, and you just kind of deliberately want that person in the checkout, the checkout person, to know that you're shitty about it, right? And that this is not okay, and I'm important, and I shouldn't have had to wait. It's a very common thing that you see people do all the time. I very rarely do it at all anymore, but I definitely used to, and I see it a lot. I see it with people boarding planes, is another one. If there's been some sort of hold up, and so then I talked about that, and I kind of processed it, and I'm like, "Hmm, do I still do that? Because it's definitely not a trait that I desire to keep in myself if I do that." And it was just kind of this whole thing, and then it brought up something in my friend. And so then we spoke about that, and I don't know if it was that situation, or some other sort of similar, pretty low key situation, but recently I found myself saying to someone, "You know, this is not normal that people don't have hiccups in their day, or just random little disruptions or triggers, or they feel a bit bad about their own behaviour, and then they're not sure whether or not they should feel bad about it", or whatever. But they don't then go an have an audio conversation with a friend about it, and turn it into a high level consciousness conversation. And then have all these breakthroughs and a-has and then connect it into some other part of their life, and then have a massive fucking revolution about something huge because you pulled at that one little string. That's not what people do. But that's what we do all day, every day. Every burn, every pain, every discomfort, every disruption, every little trigger gets turned into growth. And so, what I've found is that just through the process of being this person, that over the years, it's become, for a while now, a long time now I would say, like all day every day mindset work. Everything is continually shifting and growing, and evolving, and the smallest things get to become kind of little threads that can be pulled on, and undo the biggest things. And sometimes it feels, I guess, kind of relentless or exhausting, or sometimes you just think, "Man, can I ever just move on and not analyse or seek to understand every single thing that comes along?" But it's not really about that. It's about being so committed to growth. Allison says, "That's the exact sort of friendships I want for me now." Well, I feel that you'll totally create that and call that in through Rich Hot Empire. And that's why I created the inner circle for as well. Not specifically continual shifting and up-leveling and analysis of little day to day situations, but that sort of environment, right? Like a women's circle, or it's like women, men, whatever. But a circle of like-minded individuals who are connected by ... well, a like-minded desire, right? To continually grow and evolve. 100% of my friendships are like that now. I just can't even imagine a friendship that would be different. Yes, it's about sometimes just hanging out and being silly, and having fun, or whatever. Or just sometimes it's just kind of sharing what's going on, and connecting in that way. But honestly, every single thing that causes any, either of us, whoever's in the relationship, any sort of disruption or feeling of, "Oh, I don't feel quite in alignment now", or I feel like maybe that wasn't the best choice, or was I coming from this place? And what do you think? It's just continual discussion and continual evolution and growth. So then, and that's exactly how it is in the inner circle, and there's a few inner circle people in here so you know this, right? But with all of my clients as well, in Rich Hot Empire, which you're in obviously Allison, it's a version of that. Julie says, "It's 24/7, even when I look like I'm doing nothing, I'm doing everything." Exactly. Right? Like I could be standing, waiting for something at the post office, or ... I usually wouldn't do that, so I'd send Serafina. But if I was, right? Or wherever I am, at a store or something, or pumping gas, or I don't know, getting changed in the gym, and you just continually kind of creating your life in your mind. And then on occasion, you go into an environment with normal people, not just okay, passing through the airport or whatever. But where you're actually listening to people who are not like that, and hearing how they do life, and I do find it really shocking. Honestly, I do. I find it kind of like that, is how I feel. I kind of feel like, oh my God. How do you even live? And I guess I logically know that the way we think and do life is so different, but maybe I didn't realise it's so different, because I think you just adapt to, of course I'm gonna turn everything into an exercise and a lesson around alignment. What else would I do, right? Of course every single thing that occurs or happens in my life is monetizable, if I want it to be, right? I don't take every single tiny thing in my life and turn it into content, or turn it into money, but a pretty good percentage. Of course, every random story, whether it's a funny story, or a silly story, or a an up-level story, whatever, of course that can be content. And money as well, right? So, I don't know, it's just ... I just think I'm so fucking happy to be the person that I am, and I'm so fucking happy to have created a community around me of like-minded individuals as well, because I think it would sound crazy if you were trying to explain this stuff to anybody else out there. And of course, that's that's why many entrepreneurs end up alone. Hello, Sally. Hello, Kyra. I see you jumping on. Jamie says, "This reminds me of the beginning of our call on Tuesday." I'm in such a rambly mode. The live stream on Facebook, on my laptop computer over here says that only three people have been reached so far, from this live stream. I feel that that's quite a bunch of lies, actually. Because there's definitely like 28 people who are on right now live and there's been tonnes more before. So, my inner circle, if you don't know ... Okay, that silver cushion was not supposed to be on screen. That was not part of my visuals that I decided. I wanted it behind my back. Let's fix that up. The inner circle is open, by the way, which is my private client, 12 month ongoing one on one mentoring. I have been actively promoting that for two days now, and I've had some amazing badass people reaching out about that. And starting to say yes as well. So, this is a really, really exciting time for me, because my inner circle is ... well, it's my most inner circle. My innermost circle, and it's exciting to really put some focused attention into the growth of the inner circle, for this current time. And just watch the badassery rise. It is completely unlimited one on one access to me. It is the hottest and most badass mastermind in the world. Created by me, for driven entrepreneurs, creators, the crazy ones who just want more. And it's really the kind of thing to have an individual conversation about. So, there's not a whole lot more that I'm gonna say about it right now. If you'd like to know what it's like to mentor with me at the highest one on one level, then the best thing to do is ... Actually, you can click on the cover photo, I think. Let me just double check. You can go on the cover photo of this page, or my personal page, yeah. And if you click on that, there's a little overview description. I'll even put a version of it here into a comment here. But really, you're just gonna message me, okay? You're just gonna send me a private message on my personal Facebook is best. Not this one ideally. I'm live streaming from my business page right now. But I do take messages on the business page, I just prefer them on the personal page. I prefer to have my personal conversations on my personal page. Send me a message if you'd like to know more about the inner circle. I will send you a written overview that explains what it's about and how it all works, and what you get. Largely, you get being in my energy. You get me, you get coming into that space and that environment. You also get a tonne of other things, including amazing retreats and the next one is coming up in July. And then there's a video, or a couple videos even, where I talk about it more, and some other things that you can look at. But you can send me a message about it, and I'll get you all the details. So, I wanted to tell you about that. Here's a small written overview. I'm popping it into the comment now. I really like the way this set looks actually, on my computer by the way. I should sit here on this couch more often. I've got so many cool bling-bling couches in this house. I've got two more really bling-bling couches way over there. So, right here behind this phone screen in my kitchen, and this is the studio, as you know. The throne's right there. And then, through the other room is a massive lounge. The big lounge. The main lounge, downstairs lounge. That has two hot as fuck couches on it. And this massive big painting that's over there, is supposed to sit above one of them, and I'm not sure why it's not up there. And then there's another whole lounge room upstairs which nobody ever uses at all. Lounge room, living room, whatever it is. Anyway. I have the low down on all my living areas. And now you have the low down on the inner circle. It's in the page comment there. That's a small low down. If you want the whole low overview, you gotta message me about that. All right. I could ramble on and on all evening. Do I have anything else to say? Do you have anything else you'd like me to say? Tell me something interesting. Everything gets to be turned into a story about alignment. Everything gets to be turned into growth. That's really what driven by the burn meant, when I divinely had that title for a live stream given to me, whilst in the bathroom. It was really just that everything gets to be turned into growth, and that I think if you embrace the discomfort or even pain, and you see it as purposeful, which it absolutely is and can be, then it becomes exciting. And that, to me, is kind of not even about the outcomes, right? Because the outcome of shifting through discomfort and pain, and triggers, or whatever it is, the outcome is actually like fucking abundance and the ability to receive. The outcome can be phenomenal, right? And absolutely will be, and it will connect into all areas, but for me, what's probably more exciting than that, to be honest, what I'm really driven by is not the outcome of getting through a period of growth, or discomfort, or pain, or whatever it might be. It's actually the feeling that I get from being in that moment, right? Where I'm experiencing the so-called pain, and I'm like, "Oh my God", and I'm okay with it. I'm not only okay with it, but I've actually found a way to thrive on it, and to enjoy it. You know, it could sound a little bit masochistic? Or sadistic? Which ones the one that's to yourself? I don't know. I'm not up with my pain words, even though I'm driven by pain, or driven by purposeful pain. Right? So, it sounds a little bit like that. It sounds a little bit like ... trying to get off on pain for no reason, or something like that. I'm waiting to see if somebody tells me what word it is here in the comments. But it's not that. It's abour realising that these things generally are sent to serve us, and for us to grow, and that it's actually only positive. You know, I think that we could really reframe the concept of pain and discomfort, and struggle, and realise that it's not a bad thing. It's not something to be scared of. No, it doesn't mean that it's gonna suddenly feel comfortable, or that if something feels painful that it will all of a sudden not feel painful. It's about realising that pain, purposeful pain ... it hurts, but then it feels better than what it hurts, right? It hurts so good. And I genuinely believe that. So, you can be feeling the pain and you're in the pain, but you're like, it's so good. It's doing me so much good, right? Same as working out. It's a really obvious example of that. Like, oh my God, I'm loving that I'm feeling this so much. Like oh my God. Fuck, I can't keep going, but it's so good. It hurts so good. And you know that you're growing, and you know that you're becoming stronger. So, to me that's what it's all about, and frankly I'm really not interested in working with, or even collaborating, or communicating with anybody who would think that pain is something to be avoided, or that struggle is something to be avoided, or the discomfort is something to be avoided. To me, that's some of the most exciting stuff in the world. It's where you really have the opportunity to experience what it really means to be human. To experience growth, and to experience the incredible rush and the incredible power that does come from overcoming adversity, or looking I guess, your inner demons, or your inner insecurities in the eye, and pushing on regardless, on the path of alignment. And I think maybe the final thing I wanna leave you with ... Alignment itself is such an interesting term that I feel like very few people understand. Alignment doesn't mean you're bouncing around on a fucking marshmallow cloud with unicorns, sitting by your side, and everything's la. Alignment is continual growth, right? And in fact, we're never fully in alignment. We're always slightly off course, and just adjusting, adjusting, adjusting, kind of like how a plane is never exactly on target for reaching it's destination, but then it does. It ultimately reach there, because it's continually aligning to the destination. So, that's one thing about alignment. But also, the process of alignment itself is one that inherently contains and includes discomfort, and scary times, or confronting times. Or things that are thrown up at us to kind of test us and to help us to become stronger, and to help us become better equipped for the journey ahead, right? If you wanna create an amazing life, and you wanna forge ahead with all of the things that you have inside of you, you're going to need to have certain skills for that. You're going to need to be a person different to the other people out there. You're going to need to be able to handle, or endure, or overcome, but I believe also thrive on things that other people would run from. And it really is a topic that I feel so passionately about, because I think that what actual pain is, in the sense of how most people would define the word pain, like what actually would fucking be painful is living your life in a way where you're not willing to face into adversity, or to face into discomfort, or to face into that growth because oh, it's gonna hurt. Or it's gonna feel uncomfortable, so no, I'll stay over here and stay in the safe zone. Or stay in the comfort zone, or whatever it is. And then okay, look how that life ends up turning out. That looks fucking painful to me. That looks painful in the sense of what people think pain is. Actual pain, what I really believe pain is, in the way we've been talking about it, is so exciting, and it's so fulfilling, and it's so rewarding, and it's just like yeah, I'm doing this thing. I'm really in this life thing, and I'm fucking doing it. So, there you go. I'm gonna go and get more up in my life thing right now, which sounds really weird. I don't even know what it means, but I'm gonna go find something else that I'm gonna go do now, so thank you so much for being here. I feel like it was extra rambly for sure. I'm not sure if it was the change of scenery, or the jacket, or the wine, or the weird experience with the ribs. But whatever it was, it turned out exactly as it was meant to be, because it's always perfect. Everything is always perfect. And as it's meant to be. Which is another reminder when these things come along. Okay. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching, replay if you're in replay. Let me know if you are. Leave me a comment. I always like to look through my comments afterwards, so say something to me, let me know did this impact you? Did it give you something? Share with me what that was. Have an amazing, amazing rest of the day. I hope you get served up some really good fucking purposeful pain. Some massive triggers that are gonna piss you right off, and then you can sort that shit out, then you're gonna become stronger, and you're gonna join me as a freaking Adidas warrior. And tell me all about it. And if you wanna join me in my inner circle, the most ... the most? The hottest and most badass mastermind in the world for creators, entrepreneurs, crazy ones, message me about mentoring with me one on one in my inner most inner circle. I will send you all the details. Message me on my personal page. Don't forget. Life is now, press play. Bye.

*This is an adult conversation so please be aware of who may be listening with you.   A Special Passage for Lisa “I am worthy. You were born worthy. You don’t have to do anything to make yourself worthy. You are a superhero born into this world and being you is all you need to do. Express yourself and don’t believe the hype that says you need to be anything more than your amazing self. I used to believe I wasn’t deserving of great things but when I began declaring my worth my life changed for the better.”  - from the soon to be best-seller I AM...: A Girl’s Guide to Harnessing SuperPowers   The “I AM” Initiative Even though we live in the same area, the universe wanted Lisa Van Ahn and I to meet in Florida. We both have made it our mission to propagate the “I AM” habits. As a listener of my podcast, you are aware of how I broadcast the message. Lisa chooses to spread the message by empowering 3rd to 8th grade girls with superpowers and the 3 rules of self-defense. She teaches them that the right action is the action you take when you love yourself, you trust who you are, and you trust what you feel.  Lisa often encounters young girls who are bombarded with “this is who you are” and “this is who you need to be” directives. In her workshops and retreats, girls discover they can freely say “No. I know who I am.”   Lisa’s Journey The common thread that is woven through Lisa’s past life is one of feeling unworthy. She succumbed to playing the part of the victim until a final “push” made her reconsider her part in her own life. She says “Your path and your journey begin with what you believe about yourself and that moves into creating your experiences. I truly do believe anything is possible. If you set yourself on the course you want to be on you will get there with the consistent behaviors of self-love, self-care, self-responsibility, and self-compassion. When you bring these things into your life anything is possible.” Lisa loves sharing these experiences because it gives her bright light a chance to shine.    “The truth is, in order to heal, we all need to tell our stories and have them witnessed.” from The Dance of the Dissident Daughter - Sue Monk Kidd Lisa knew she needed to pay forward the kindness she received from the two owners of the kickboxing studio she went to every day after she started living her life with love, forgiveness and gratitude. She made the decision to share, with young girls, the encouragement she so desperately needed when she was young and couldn’t calculate her own value.   So, Lisa is Perfect Now, Right? Even though she adds practices to her life in order to reach a state of mindfulness, Lisa admits she has much farther to go. It’s not like you make one decision and everything is instantly easy. A tendency towards self-sabotage is a fierce dragon which is hard to slay. The ego lives and so do collective expectations of success. Lisa says that when a self-defeating thought takes over, she thinks about things that she loves, things that need to be forgiven and things she is grateful for, so it becomes easier to cope with the trap of “I’ll love myself when”.   The Shadow Dance There is light and dark in all of us. The dark will come and there is no avoiding it. Accepting yourself exactly as you are allows you to release the craving for what you desire. It is the craving of making something last which creates suffering. If you release your desire before the thing you want arrives, you are given the joy of having. No one thing is easy or hard for people to release. It’s based on the individual and for Lisa, it’s her business. She says “it’s a crunchy I can’t get rid of.” Her advice to those of us stuck in our cravings, whether it is to be in a relationship or to find forgiveness for those who may have hurt us is to take a deep breath and then go out and do something today that is going to feel good. It will bring completeness, wholeness, and happiness.   Learn How to Get SuperPowers of Your Own To stay in touch with Lisa and get weekly updates about her new book, her “I AM” initiative and her confidence coaching, enlist at Lisavanahn.com. Her new book I AM...: A Girl’s Guide to Harnessing SuperPowers and accompanying cards will be available very, very soon.   You are Not the Only One and You Are Not Crazy Either If you found value in this podcast please share it. If you need someone to talk safely and privately with, email me at ann@annpeck.com. This email is confidential so you can feel secure in knowing that your truth is safe with me. The more support we all have and can give, the better our community will be. If you just want to connect socially you can join the private Curvyworld Facebook group or on social media @iamannpeck. Reminder - We are planning a big event for September! The new Straight Talk for a Curvy World Live - An Affair with Joy. We will be working on self-love and loving our business from the inside out. There will be a private VIP dinner to celebrate my 50th birthday and the release of my new book. Everybody who attends will go home with a copy. Special early bird pricing is available, so sign up now!