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You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show
You Can Overcome Anything: Ep 192 - Dealing With all the Online BS and Excelling – Rowan Wiechmann

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 10, 2022 34:56


In today's episode, CesarRespino.com brings you a guest from the other side of the world to You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, by the name of Rowan Wiechmann.Rowan Wiechmann is a former military sergeant and now performance coach who helps male entrepreneurs 2-7x their business and grow across all areas of life using the Military Method.He offers a 1-1 and group coaching programRowan's message to you is:If you want to change the game forever, start leading by example and create consistent growth across all areas of life.To Connect with Rowan go to:http://www.instagram.com/rowan.wiechmannTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

Healthy Wealthy & Smart
572: Dr. Heidi Jannenga: Student Loan Debt in PT - The Rizing Tide Foundation's Solution

Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 10, 2022 37:02


In this episode, Founder of the Rizing Tide Foundation, Heidi Jannenga, returns to the podcast to talk about fostering diversity in the physical therapy industry. Today, Heidi talks about the incredible work being done by the Rizing Tide Foundation, the process of awarding scholarships, and future Rizing Tide developments. Which changes still need to be made in the industry? Hear about the growing student debt problem, how you can get involved with Rizing Tide, and get Heidi's advice to her younger self, all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “Almost every single one of them [students] were working full-time jobs at the same time as going to PT school. Some of them, more than one job.” “There's a huge segment of the folks that answered that survey that have more than $150,000 of debt post-graduation.” “It takes a lot to try to balance the price of education to what we actually are getting paid as clinicians.” “A rising tide raises all boats.” “Be open-minded to a path that you may not have thought that you might go down.” “If something aligns with your vision and values, then go for it.”   More about Heidi Jannenga Dr. Heidi Jannenga, PT, DPT, ATC, is the founder of the Rizing Tide Foundation, which seeks to inspire more diversity and inclusiveness in the physical therapy industry. Each year, Rizing Tide presents scholarships to five promising BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and people of color) students who are on the path to earning their Doctorate of Physical Therapy (DPT) or furthering their PT education by pursuing a residency program. In addition, Heidi is a physical therapist and the co-founder and Chief Clinical Officer of WebPT, a nine-time Inc. 5000 honoree and the leading software solution for physical, occupational, and speech therapists.  As a member of the board and senior management team, Heidi advises on WebPT's product vision, company culture, branding efforts and internal operations, while advocating for rehab therapists, women leaders, and entrepreneurs on a national and international scale. Since the company launched in 2008, Heidi has guided WebPT through exponential growth. Today, it's the fastest-growing physical therapy software in the country, employing over 600 people and serving more than 90,000 therapy professionals - equating to an industry-leading 40% market-share. In 2017, Heidi was honored by Health Data Management as one of the most powerful women in IT, and she was a finalist for EY's Entrepreneur of the Year. In 2018, she was named the Ed Denison Business Leader of the Year at the Arizona Technology Council's Governor's Celebration of Innovation. In addition to serving on numerous non-profit leadership boards, Heidi is a proud member of the YPO Scottsdale Chapter and Charter 100 as well as an investor with Golden Seeds, which focuses on women-founded or led organizations. Heidi is a mother to her 10-year-old daughter Ava and enjoys traveling, hiking, mountain biking and practicing yoga in her spare time.   Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Physiotherapy, Representation, Scholarships, Diversity, Inclusivity, BIPOC, Student Debt, Education, Opportunity,   Resources Higher Education? By Andrew Hacker and Claudia Dreifus. Apply for a Rizing Tide Scholarship.   To learn more, follow Heidi at: Website:          https://rizing-tide.com Twitter:            @HeidiJannenga LinkedIn:         Heidi Jannenga   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the full Transcript Here:  SUMMARY KEYWORDS rising tide, scholarship, pt, students, people, heidi, industry, physical therapist, foundation, profession, podcast, scholarship program, year, works, residency programs, physical therapy, pts, residency, crest, education   00:07 Welcome to the healthy, wealthy and smart podcast. Each week we interview the best and brightest in physical therapy, wellness and entrepreneurship. We give you cutting edge information you need to live your best life healthy, wealthy and smart. The information in this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as personalized medical advice. And now, here's your host, Dr. Karen Litzy.   00:35 Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I'm wishing you all a very happy New Year and welcome to the first episode of 2022. We've got a great one in store. But first, a big thank you to Net Health for sponsoring today's podcast episode. So when it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and referrals, Net Health Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found get chosen and get five star reviews. So they have a new offer. If you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic win. They will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using NET Health's private practice EMR, be sure to ask about his new integration, head over to net help.com forward slash li T zy to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit. Okay, on today's episode I'm really excited to have back on the podcast Dr. Heidi J. Nanga. She is the founder of the rising tide Foundation which seeks to inspire more diversity and inclusiveness in the physical therapy industry. Each year rising tide presents scholarships to five promising bipoc students who are on the path to earning their doctorate of physical therapy, or furthering their PT education by pursuing a residency program. In addition, Heidi is a physical therapist and the Co Founder and Chief Clinical Officer of web PT, a nine Time Inc 5000 honoree and the leading software solution for physical occupational speech therapist. As a member of the board and senior management team Heidi advises on web PTS, product vision company culture branding, efforts, and internal operations while advocating for rehab therapist women leaders and entrepreneurs on a national international scale. Since the company launched in 2008, Heidi has guided web PT through exponential growth. Today, it's the fastest growing physical therapy software in the country employing over 700 people serving more than 90,000 therapy professionals, equating to an industry leading 40% market share. In 2017, Heidi was honored by health data management as one of the most powerful women in it. She was a finalist for he wise Entrepreneur of the Year in 2018. She was named Ed Dennison, Business Leader of the Year at the Arizona Technology Council's governor's celebration of innovation. In addition to serving on numerous nonprofit leadership boards, Heidi's a proud member of the YPO Scottsdale chapter and charter 100 as well as an investor with golden seats which focuses on women founded or led organizations. She is also the mother's 10 year old daughter Ava enjoys traveling hiking, mountain biking and practicing yoga in her spare time when that spare time is I don't know. So today we are talking about the rising tide Foundation. And if you are a physical therapist and you are hoping to go into residency or you're in your residency, you must listen to this episode because you can win a scholarship from the rising tide foundation. If you're listening to this today, Monday, you have until Friday in order to to submit an application to the rising tide foundation to get a scholarship for your residency. So get on it people a big thank you to Heidi and everyone enjoyed today's episode. Hey, Heidi, welcome back to the podcast. Happy to have you back on.   04:02 Hey, Karen, so great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.   04:05 And so today we're going to be talking about a foundation called the rising tide foundation. So what is it and why did you decide to start this foundation?   04:19 Well, thanks so much for having me on. And to be able to talk about this because it really is a has been a labor of love. And a true way for me to give back to a profession that has given so much to me. The Rising Tide foundation really started after a few years of us doing the real estate of rehab therapy industry report which you and I have talked about on this podcast, and every year. There doesn't seem to be a change into two major things that we ask the serve the people that we survey, one was what you mentioned student debt, and actually, not that it hasn't changed, it's actually increasing. And that's a big burden, as you can imagine, to an industry. And then second was actually the biggest emphasis, which is the the, the lack of diversity within our profession. And being a person who identifies as a person of color. The fact that we have this lack of diversity has been a real, real issue, that hasn't made much change, despite, you know, the APTA and others sort of bringing attention to the issue. But the percentages as far as what the makeup of our profession looks like, has not changed has not really changed at all, in the last five years that we've been doing that survey. And so that was really the two major impetus behind me starting this foundation, I've been lucky enough to have financial success with web pt. And so had started the rising tide Foundation, not knowing what I wanted to do with the foundation back at the end of 2019. And then with everything that happened through 2020, it just sort of hit me over the head that this is something that I can personally make a difference in, within our profession. And   06:39 what exactly does the rising tide foundation do?   06:45 It is a scholarship program. So we have two tracks of scholars. We have the crest Scholarship, which is actually geared towards new and new students coming into the profession. And so we provide $14,000 scholarships to three participants, or three scholars, three scholarship winners, that is renewable for the three years PT school, and then we have to serve scholarships, which actually is for physical therapists who are going on to residency programs. And those are $10,000 each, for the one your usual one year program of residency. How, how   07:41 are these winners chosen? What give us a peek sort of behind the curtains, if you will, as to how the process works, so that if people listening to this, whether you are a physical therapy student, or you are one of those people like Gosh, I really want to do a residency, but I don't know how I can make it work financially. So how can these folks apply to the program and and like I said, gives a little peek behind the curtain on how it all works?   08:12 Sure, well, first and foremost, you have to qualify and so if you go to rising dash tide.com, you will find all of the specific sort of qualifications that are required. So for example, for the crest scholarship, you are either an undergraduate who is applying or an undergraduate who is applying to PT school. So you have will have graduated from an undergraduate with an undergraduate degree going on to DPT program, or you're a PTA that's entering into a PTA Bridge Program, which is there's only a couple of schools that do that. But we are also providing scholarships for any PTA who they want to go on to get their DPT so there is a actual physical, like documentation style application, which you have to fill out as well as writing three short essay that include questions like What inspired you to become a physical therapist? And, you know, what does it mean to be a community member? And then also, you know, we really wanted to dive into the essence of who the scholars are. Because we feel like we want to invest in professionals who who are really going to want to make a difference in the profession. So the last question is talking about sort of a failure that you've experienced in your life and what you've really learned from that training. Did you know dive into a little vulnerability and understanding of who they are at the core of the person. And so you also need some letters of recommendation, and transcripts in the normal sort of thing that you might think about in going through a scholarship. So once you you send all of that information. We have a selection committee, which I'm really, really proud of. I was honored to gather quite a few thought leaders from the industry including a fossa, Joe Badea, Maria Gonzalez seen Sharon Wang is actually not from the industry. We wanted to bring together our selection committee, which I call our Beachcombers, hopefully see that sort of nautical theme here. Wendy HARO, who is a software engineer actually works with me with PT, Moyer Tillery, who is also a PT, and then Jean shamrock rod. And those folks make up our our base comers who were to which our selection committee, so we scour all of the applications that come in for each one of the scholarship programs. And we narrow it down to around 10 finalists, and each of the finalists and have to go through an actual live video interview with the selection committee. And from there, we then get the really tedious and hard, difficult decision to narrow it down to the three winners. We just went through the crash scholarship selection process, and it was absolutely amazing. And, and we we were able to narrow it down. But having been our first process, it was just an incredible experience. And we had so many great applicants that we actually ended up awarding five scholarship winners, three of the full scholar, scholarship cross winners, and then we actually started two new sub winners, which are the what we're calling our rising stars, which actually got $5,000 scholarship towards their tuition and, and fees, they might be paying towards PT school.   12:35 That's amazing. And how many people applied for the crest scholarship?   12:44 Yeah, you know, Karen, you know, all about startups right in that first, first year, you kind of are working out the kinks, you're trying to figure out the right processes to have in place. And we had a fairly short window of about 60 days, 45 to 60 days that we opened up the application process this year, for our first cohort of crest winners. And our goal was to get 20 applicants. And after a social media polish and the PR, including, you know, me talking on a few podcast, we actually got 40 applicants which I was so so thrilled about. So we doubled the number that we wanted, then, obviously through that process, it's was so great that we couldn't actually just narrow down to three. So we actually awarded five scholarships and I I just wanted to give a shout out to the amazing scholars that did winner that are part of this first first cohort we had three winners from Northwestern University, Ruth Morales Flores is actually a second year students. Ricky Loki, who is a first year in Jackie Hua, who was a first year as well, just phenomenal, phenomenal students. And Alicia lead from Washington, St. Louis University and Tyrrel McGee, from Regis University. So a really broad spectrum of really interesting and thoughtful students who I know are going to make huge impact on the industry moving forward.   14:29 And you know, you had mentioned that part of the application process was interviews. So a lot you had the members of the committee interviewing 10 Different students and you're reading through 40 different essays. So what did you learn about the PT education system through hearing from all of these applicants and the eventual winners of the scholarship program?   14:59 Well, for First and foremost, as I mentioned, one of the goals and the mission of rising tide is all about improving the diversity of the workforce within our industry. And so, obviously, you know, the number of students that have been accepted to PT school in order to really receive this scholarship and qualify for the scholarship has to be people of color. And so the fact that we were able to get the number of scholarships applications that we did, in such a short period of time, was amazing to me. And, and I attribute a lot of that to the physical therapy, schools really putting diversity as a high priority in terms of their recruiting process of really also trying to change the face of who we are, and to become less homogenous, and more reflective of the society in which we live in. And so that was a real, I want to say, eye opener, but but pleasant surprise, that, you know, despite the fact that we haven't seen the numbers change, that it is something that is a huge priority, and is now after a few years of changing processes, and changing how the recruiting, where they're recruiting from and how they're actually going through the actual student selection process. For example, there are many schools now that are either eliminating, or D prioritizing SAP scores as an entry component, or GRE scores as it goes into graduate school, as a as a component of the process, and putting a higher priority on interview and essays and other things and more more, I guess, tangible areas of interest as they go through the, the selection process for their incoming classes. And so that was a that was really positive for me to really hear that. But it more than that, it was the passion that the students had for the industry. You know, I don't think much has changed in terms of why people get interested in the PT field, most of them had had experiences, whether it was personal or with family members, that really sparked that inspiration to to go into the PT field. Some of the other things that were just amazing about these students is almost every single one of them were working full time jobs, at the same time as going through PT school, some of them more than one job. We heard stories of, you know, students who basically had to decide whether they were going to pay for food, or pay for a book. And so the determination and just the sheer passion around why the and what they're able to do in order to accomplish their goals, was just astounding. And I don't know that, you know, most people understand the sort of path that, you know, underserved populations sometimes have to take in order to accomplish those goals.   18:54 Yeah, that's amazing. What a great group that you you got to meet. Now, after talking with these students, aside from the fact that hey, schools are kind of changing the weight of inclusion criteria, what further changes do you think need to be made within the industry? And on that, we'll take a quick break to hear from our sponsor, and be right back with Heidi's answer. When it comes to boosting your clinics, online visibility, reputation and increasing referrals, net Health's Digital Marketing Solutions has the tools you need to beat the competition. They know you want your clinic to get found, get chosen and definitely get those five star reviews on Google. Net Health is a fun new offer. If you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic win. They will buy lunch for your office. If you're already using Net Health private practice EMR, be sure to ask about its new integration. Head over to net health.com forward slash li tz y to sign up for your complimentary marketing Audit?   20:01 Well, we know as, as we you, you started talking about in the beginning of the show is the student debt ratio that pte students are coming out with post graduation. We've seen that time and time again, in our state of rehab therapy industry report, as we surveyed, you know, 1000s, of therapist to understand their biggest woes, as they are navigating through this profession. And, you know, I, there's a huge segment of of the folks that answered that survey that have more than $150,000 of debt post graduation. And that was a 5% increase over what we found those numbers to be in 2018. So just in a few years, that number has grown significantly. And so that's to me, it's just not sustainable. When you compare what the compensation is, for an average, you know, new grad, being somewhere between depending on the type of PT services that you're delivering anywhere from 60 to 90 grand. That's just not commensurate to be able to be able to live and then pay off that debt, which you know, $150,000 in PT school usually means on top of another 100 grand at minimum that you you've accumulated through undergrad. So we're talking a huge, tremendous amount of debt. And so what I know is also happening is looking at shortening the timeframe in which it takes to get a doctorate degree, there are universities and colleges like South College, that are changing the way we think they're trying to change the way we think about PT school, where it doesn't have to be 100% in person that, you know, a large portion of the time spent can be done online. So that cuts down significant amount of debt in terms of having to pay for housing and other things. And it just becomes more accessible to more people, and decreases the cost of the overall educational process. So I really think that the cost of education, rethinking how we do the curriculum, of what truly is necessary to be in person are things that that really need to be looked   22:40 Yeah, and when we talk about that sheer amount of, of debt, when I speak about that to other people, I always preface like, you know, like you said, Pts are coming out of school 50 to $90,000. It's not like we work at Goldman Sachs, where in two years you get like $500,000 Bonus, do you know what I mean? And and why law paid off? Right? So it's a little bit different PTS are not usually getting a $500,000 bonus. May I don't want to, I don't want to get yelled at by people on the internet. But I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen often.   23:21 No, I don't think that happens very often. As a matter of fact, I think, you know, especially in the times that we're in right now, you know, the the 5%. Five to maybe 10% increase year over year is probably what's on average. So, you know, it's gonna take you a while, especially if you're you're starting out as a new grad in that maybe 60 to 70 range to even get to the, you know, the six digit. Right. And so, yeah, it takes a lot to try to balance the price of education to what we actually are getting paid as, as clinicians.   24:05 Yeah. And and if there's a really great book, Heidi, I don't know if you've ever heard of heard of this book, but it's called Higher Education question mark. And it's by Andrew hacker and Claudia Dreyfus. And they talk about the cost of higher education. And what are some of the extraneous things happening on college campuses that aren't going directly to the education of the students, but yet is being reflected in the price of admission. So if people want to learn more about that, I would highly suggest reading that book.   24:40 Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of debate happening right now around higher education and the need for it. You know, I know even within our own profession, there's a lot of question marks around the DPT on whether it was worth it or not. But at the end of the day, we are here we are At level professionals, but we do need to figure out if we are going to continue to grow and have an attract the top talent that we want to continue to have our profession, you know, be recognized as adding, you know, tremendous value to the overall healthcare system. We definitely want to, you know, remain viable and relook and relook at how perhaps we're doing some of the things because I just don't think that the way the path that we're on today is truly sustainable.   25:38 Yeah, I agree with that. And now, let's say you're a student out there, or you're going into residency, how can they get more information to apply for upcoming scholarships? And is there are there any scholarship applications that are due soon?   25:55 Yes, I mentioned we have the crest scholars, but we also have the search Scholarship Program, which is for residency programs. And that current application process is open right now. And so it will be closing on January 14. So if you are a current resident residency program participant, and would like to apply for the surge scholarship, and you are a person of color, you can apply at res rising dash tie.com. If you go to search scholarship on there and just hit the Apply button, it will take you right to the page in which you can fill out all of the information, upload any documentation that we're requiring. And then we will definitely take a look at the application and put you into the process.   26:55 Yeah, so that means if you're listening to that, listening to this podcast today, on the 10th, you have until the end of this week, so get on it if you want money to help you get through your residency, so you've got like you've got five days, so get on it.   27:14 And this is an annual annual renewal process. So we will launch a new cohort every year. So if you miss out this year, but you're going through your residency programs, this year, you will get another chance at the end of this year to apply for the scholarship. And definitely any students out there who might be listening or interested in the field of PT, and you are going to be a new grad in this upcoming year of 2022. Or I'm sorry, a new student to PT school this year. And please, please, please think about offsetting some of that student debt through a scholarship program like rising tide.   27:55 Excellent. And now what's new with the foundation? What do you have coming up aside from these amazing scholarship opportunities,   28:03 while being part of rising tide means you're part of our community. And so one of the really awesome things that we are going to we are doing with our cohort is getting them together annually for sort of rising tide retreat in which we're going to have thought leaders from the industry come together to help be mentors to these students. Each cohort will be building on itself. So as we have this first group of 2021 Slash 2022 go through this year, they will then come back and be be mentors to our next cohort of students that will be coming through so part of the sort of surge and crafts together where you've got, you know, physical therapists going through residency programs will help to be mentors to these up and coming students. And so creating this community of connection, and education is really what we're planning through 2022.   29:15 I see what you did there. I like it, I like it. And now let's say you're a physical therapist like me, and you're like, wow, I am loving this rising tide. How can I can I donate to this? Can I be a part of this? What can I do?   29:32 Yeah, that's a great question. Karen and I, since launching this this past year in 2021, I just been so honored by the amount of outpouring of support that people have wanted to give to this program, including financial. I mentioned that it was self funded. And you know, We've had many, many years of scholarships that are going to be awarded. But with this outpouring of support of people who wanted to donate financially, I, I went ahead and change the 501 C three status to allow me to have donations. And so in March of 2022, we will be opening up the rising tide foundation to people who want to donate. And my hope is to actually double the number of scholarships that we're going to be able to award in 2022, that we we were able to do in 2021. And so if we can continue to do that every year, so that would mean we would award 10 scholarships in 2022, rather than five for at least the cross scholarship and then four of the search scholars, I think that would be absolutely amazing. And as you can imagine, if we did that year over year, we would be funding almost every PT student in let's say, 20 years.   31:05 Exactly. Hey, that's that big blue sky dream, right? The be hag? Yes, yes, the big big dream. And and, and it's a great dream to help future physical therapists not be saddled with the amount of student debt that a lot of students over the past couple of years have, unfortunately, had to deal with. So I think it's a wonderful foundation. And I applaud you for taking the initiative to putting this out into the world. And again, where can people find Oh, you said it a couple times, and we will have a link to it in the show notes. But where can people find more about the scholarship and about rising tide?   31:49 Yep, it's www dot rising with a Z r i v i n g dash tide.com. And I'm sure many of you have heard the saying rising, a rising tide raises all boats. And that's really where it came from. It's something that has that thing has really meant a lot to me, in how I perform as a leader, and what I sort of prescribed to as sort of my own personal culture of wanting to help people. And so that's where sort of the name sort of stems from. But yeah, go to rising tide.com. And you can learn all about our foundation and scholarship program, you can sign up for our blog subscription, we have a monthly vlogs, coming out about all kinds of things that has to do with how students can improve sort of how they think about becoming a physical therapist, too, just thought provoking ideas as we go about wanting to sort of change the face of the PC profession.   33:05 Perfect. And I'll also add that you're also on Instagram, and on Twitter. So if you go to the website, you can go down to the bottom and click on the little icons, and you can follow rising tide on Instagram and Twitter and LinkedIn as well. That's right. Yeah, perfect. All right. Well, Heidi, as we start to wrap things up, I know, I asked you this before, so you're gonna have to think of something new. What's another piece of advice you would give to your younger self?   33:41 Well, I would just say be open minded to a path that you may not have thought that you might go down, go down. I will just say that, you know, starting a nonprofit, and a scholarship program was really not on on my radar. And as things have unfolded, just like starting in that entrepreneurial mindset, like it works in your professional life, as I'm sorry, it works in your personal life, as well as your professional life in terms of finding problems that need to be solved and figuring out a way to do that. And so stay staying really open minded to things that come your way that may not be necessarily what you think, or had planned to do. To find ways to just try to try new things and be open minded to those options and they can take you down path of trim adding tremendous value and to others but also just in, in in to yourself as well.   34:58 Yeah, excellent advice. keep your mind open. And if something aligns with with your vision and values, then go for it. Great advice. Heidi, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today talking about rising tide. And again, if you're going to mention this one more time, if you're going into your residency program, check out rising tide, check out the website. We mentioned it several times, also in the show notes at podcast at healthy, wealthy, smart, calm and apply, because you've got a couple of days if you're listening to this on the 10th of January 2022. You've got until the 14th to apply for the surge scholarship. Is that That's right, right.   35:44 That's right. Okay. Well, you got until the 14th until the midnight of the 14th and mentioned that you heard it on rising tide or on the healthy wealthy podcast. And we'll just move you to the top of the stack.   35:56 Yes. So So do it. People get on it be a part of the rising tide. Heidi, thank you so much for coming on.   36:04 Karen, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Yeah,   36:06 of course. And everyone. Thanks so much for listening, have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart. And a big thank you to Dr. Heidi Jenga for coming on the podcast to discuss the rising tide foundation and of course, thank you to Net Health. So again, they have a new offer if you sign up and complete a marketing audit to learn how digital marketing solutions can help your clinic when they will buy lunch for your office. Head over to net health.com forward slash li te zy to sign up for your complimentary marketing audit to get your clinics online visibility, reputation and referrals increasing in 2022   36:45 Thank you for listening and please subscribe to the podcast at podcast dot healthy wealthy smart.com And don't forget to follow us on social media  

The Marketing Secrets Show
How To Build A Great Team…The Right Way

The Marketing Secrets Show

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 10, 2022 17:01


The skill set for building an effective team is WAY different than the skills needed for marketing and sales. For one, you have to learn how to become a true LEADER. So the two key questions to ask yourself are 1. Who do you have to become to lead a great team? And 2. What are the critical strategies you need to implement to get your team onboard to follow your vision? Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up, everyone? This is Russell, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast. Today's episode, we're going to be talking about building a team. How do you do it? What are the pitfalls? What are the pros, the cons? And some of the things that I learned along the way. Hopefully this'll help you as you're building out your team to be able to do whatever it is you're trying to do in your life. Whatever your mission, whatever your goal, whatever the business you're trying to build. I hope that this episode will help you as you're thinking through it, to help you to build the team that's going to get you to the finish line. So with that said, I'm going to cue up the theme song. We come back, you have a chance to listen in on a cool interview, talking about how to build your team. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets Podcast, I'm here today with Josh Forti and we've been having fun today. The last two episodes- Josh Forti: We have. Russell: We recorded went longer, but- Josh: It's been fun. Russell: I think they've been fun. So today will be a little bit shorter episode, but it's something that, again, Josh brings things that I don't ever really typically talk about. So it's been fun to talk about some of the stuff like I think about, but I've never really verbally shared. So do you want to set up what we were talking about today? Josh: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so very specifically here, I want to focus for you specifically. The question is, well, leadership and team building, what are some of the biggest shifts around building a team and becoming a leader? Because as someone who built a team myself that failed miserably, it wasn't that we hated each other, but it's just like, it was chaos. When you're trying to manage like six or seven different people and they're all like contracting everywhere. And now I'm like kind of going back and rebuilding. And I'm building it right and I have full-time people that we're bringing in and going. And it's like, man, the skillset of making money, the skillset of being a marketer is way so totally different- Russell: Yeah. Josh: Than building a team. And even being like the attractive character and building a following, like building a following is a completely different skillset than it is of growing a team and being a leader and things like that. And so I guess like two part is number one, who did you have to become? And like, secondly, what are like some of the hacks, tips, or I know you like secrets. So what are some of the secrets that you use to build a team and really like sell them on the vision and like really make sure that they were thriving in that role? Russell: Cool. So I want to just second what you said, building a team is way different than all the other things. And I've struggled over the years. I have an amazing team, as you guys know, if you've seen everything. And I wouldn't say most of it's because of my own doing, I'll talk about some of the stuff I've learned along the way. But it's a different skillset. And I think making money is an easier skill, I think creating a movement of people that are following you is different. I always tell people, like I'm such a good leader and communicator to like my tribe and I'm not as good to my internal team. It's interesting. And so a couple things that I'll share again, I don't have this perfect. And if you ask people on my team, like Russell's not perfect at this because I'm not. But I'll share some of the things I've learned because I'm always trying to figure this out and trying to get better at it. One of the biggest lessons I had and I did a podcast on this probably two or three years ago. Was this realization that I had to make a transition. Because I was always like the All Star. Like if you look at basketball, like I was the All Star, like I was really good. I could write copy, I could build a funnel, I could drive traffic, I could sell from stage, I could do all the different things. And so I was like, Michael Jordan out there and I'd be on stage, I'd be doing, I'd be dunking and slamming and three points. And like just amazing and people would tell me how great I was and I loved it. And then I start building a team. And so I started building a team, but the problem is that as I was building a team, I still thought I was Michael Jordan. So I'd build the team and I'd be in there, all of a sudden, I'd have the person writing copy and they'd be going up with the ball, about to do the layup. And I'm like, "Ah, I could actually do it better." So I grab the ball from my own teammate and rip it out of their hands and I'd go dunk it like, "Ah." And I would get everyone cheering for me again. Or someone would be coming down ... I'm trying to get these analogies working. But basically what's happening is that I was the All Star and- Josh: That one worked. That analogy worked. Russell: That one did work? Okay, good. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I was trying to bring in other All Stars. But the problem is I'd bring these All Stars in and then as they were trying to perform, I'd be like, "I can do it better." And I would take the ball from them because I want to be the All Star. And I had this realization, like for me to actually build a team, I cannot continue to be the All Star. And this is hard- Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: For achievers like us, especially for someone like me. Like I was the achiever, I had done all the roles because I had built the company by myself initially. It was me doing all the roles, so I learned all the roles, I got good at all the roles. And so as I started trying to like bring on these different All Stars, it was tough. It's kind of like if you watch the All Star game or like the dream team. Like all of a sudden you got like the best players on a team and usually they're not the best playing with each other because they're all the All Stars, they all want a ball hog and it gets really, really difficult. And so I had to make this realization, like if I'm going to be successful growing a team and getting click funnels from hundred million to a billion dollars, like I can't continue to be the All Star. I have to retire and I have to become the coach. That's a hard transition. Because now you're coming back and like you're successful, not now by your skillset, but you're successful by like cultivating other people's skillsets. And that's a different skillset to have, by the way. Like it's way harder. For me, it's always been easier for me to go and like to do the thing. Like I'm finding it now with I'm coaching my kids wrestling. And I'm watching my kids, I'm watching the team and like, man, I was such a good athlete. I'd go out there, I'd kill myself, I'd work so hard and I was an amazing athlete. But it's way harder for me to coach other athletes because I can't give them desire, I can't give them these different things. And so that was difficult. And so that's the first thing to realize is that if you're going to start growing a team, you have to be willing to like take your Jersey off and say, "I'm no longer the All Star, I am now the coach. And I've got new people." And that's been the hardest thing for me and I still struggle with that, I still like jump back in. I'm like, "Ah." But that's the key, if you want to get a good group people around you. Because otherwise if you're the one that's taking the ball from him, from the other people on the team, the All Stars are going to leave you. Like they're not going to stick around, they want to be the All Star too, they want the recognition, they want to be doing the thing. So that's the first big shift that you got to have. Any questions on that before I go to kind of- Josh: No, no. Super good. Yeah, you're good. Russell: Okay. So the second thing is you have to be good at hiring All Stars. I remember when we first started building ClickFunnels, Todd read an article or something and he was talking about ... in the article was like, there's A players, B players, C player, there's different levels. But what people don't understand, it's not like A players, like 100% and B players like 50%. Like the article said the difference between an A player and a B player is like 2200% difference. So it's like a B player, you can have like one A player going to give you the output of like 50 or 100 or how many B players. And so what most of us try to do, is try to come in and say, "Okay, I don't want to spend as much money getting the right person. So I'm going to find somebody who's cheaper. Maybe they're not going to be an A player, but they'll be a B player, but I can afford them." And that's like this mindset that most people have. I see it all the time, I see it in Facebook groups, in ClickFunnels Facebook group, like, how do I get a cheap funnel builder? Like, that's the problem, you're looking for a B player. Or you find an A player, you get 2200 times better thing. And so it's been interesting because we launched ClickFunnels the first time, like I had a couple A players, which is why it grew. We had a couple All Stars, we had some like Todd Dickerson. You guys know our team, like we had A players who were able to go and intergrow. But then from there, we had to hire whoever we could afford. Right now we're building ClickFunnels 2.0 and we're in a unique spot where it's like, we don't have to just hire who we can afford. Like let's hire the best. And so we're going out there trying to figure out who are the A players in each regard. And it's crazy because I look at the team that's building ClickFunnels 2.0, it's a small team. What they're accomplishing is amazing, but they're all A players. When we started like looking at rolling out Click Funnels 2.0 and our marketing team, we started trying to bring in A players and they're expensive. And so a lot of times the questions like, well, I don't have any money. How do I recruit the A players? Well, I recruited Todd and I was broke. A players aren't necessarily looking for money today. The A players are people who are looking for money in the future. They're the ones who are like, "I want to be part of a team. I want to build something cool, something I believe in. And I want to be able to get paid insane amounts of money over here. And I'm willing to give up that for this over here." The right people will be willing to do that. So as I come back, if I was to like be building my team over from scratch right now. There's number one, again, taking off the All Star, say I'm going to be the coach. And number two is like, if I'm going to be the coach and I'm out there building the team, like I'm going to try to build the dream team. And to do that, I've got to sell them on the vision of why this is cool and like where it's going to go, and what's the opportunity for them. Because just like you're trying to sell your customers on the opportunity of like funnels are the opportunity or whatever. It's like, you're selling your dreams team, like this is the opportunity. Like if you join the team, you're going to get paid nothing right now or very little right now. But this is how we're going to structure things so that it'll be worth it for you over here. And the right people will hear that because that's what they're looking for. Someday when I retire from this whole, whatever I'm doing. If I was ever getting a job again, it's not going to be based on money, I could care less about money. Someone's going to sell me someday on the vision. In fact, I just saw Sean Wayland just hired the dude who started Tapout- Josh: Yeah, I saw that. Russell: And like how powerful is that? The Tapout dude does not need Sean's money. He sold his company for insane amounts of money. But I'm sure Sean's like, "Hey dude, here's the opportunity. You help me do this thing and flip it like, this is what's possible for you." And now he's got literally like there's no better person that Sean could have hired to run that company- Josh: Yeah, I know. Russell: Than this dude. Josh: When I saw that one, I was like, "Oh my Gosh." Russell: It's brilliant. So for all of us, we got to start linking more strategically. Not like, who can I afford for this role? It's like, who is the person that's going to be getting a million bucks a year in five years from now in this role? And how do I sell them on the opportunity? How do I create an opportunity where they can grow and they can monetize? Where they can make this kind of money. And that's how you recruit the right people into your world, who are going to help you to actually have success. And so those are the things ... because you get a good A player, you don't have to be really good at managing, you don't have to be really good at micro- Josh: Yeah. Russell: All those kind things. Like you get the right people in place, they're going to do the things and it makes you look like the All Star, the coach of the year that you are. Because you built the right team. Building the team- Josh: Yeah. Russell: Is more valuable than all the other pieces, I believe. Josh: Yeah. Like getting the right people is more important. The systems, the process, like those are all important. But like if you have B players on the team, it's like you're going to get a mediocre result. Russell: Yeah. And then- Josh: Yeah. Russell: And B player, you're going to be one in charge if you know the process. We brought Todd and I didn't have to like sit down with Todd and like, "Okay, how are we going to manage the projects? How are we going to do this?" Like Todd came in, he's like, "All right, I got it." And he just ran and he was able to run and like, all right, he's done. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Like we just brought in this guy named Kevin Richards, who we brought him in into like be the CMO of ClickFunnels. And Kevin had worked for a whole bunch of really big companies doing this. And it's crazy because like he came in and we gave him the reins, he started running. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is way better than I was running." Like there's structures, organization. Because he's done it before, over and over and over again. He's going to come in and plug in and just do it. And I'm watching it right now, I'm like- Josh: Yeah. Russell: "Man, like he's an A player who I could hire." In fact, I have over the last decade, a whole bunch of B players to do this role and no one's been able to hit it. And it's been me being involved so much. Where now it's like literally the first two weeks I was like all nervous because I want to make sure that everything's perfect. And finally like gave him the reins and I stepped back and it's like, "Whoa, this is so much better than when I was running it." Josh: Yeah. Russell: And it's easier and less stressed on me and he's loving it and it's just powerful. So those are the key. Josh: Okay. Couple rapid fire questions here, so that we make time. Number one, have you ever run into challenges or how have you dealt with communication differences inside of a team? Because one of the things that I've noticed is like, I just thought everybody would communicate like I was if we're all part of a team. I'm like the most expressive person, like when I talk. Like I use emojis and exclamation points and like if I'm texting, if I'm going like my voice or whatever. And like someone on my team is like, "Okay." I'm like, "Ah, are you mad? Do you understand? Like what do you mean, okay?" Do you have systems in place? Or do you typically go and just try to like find people to do that? Or is that something you just learn? Because I'm sure like, Melanie, I mean she was with you for how long? Right before Shelia, I'm sure she had a very unique communication style and I'm sure your next assistant is probably not the same as her. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right. So like how have you learned like how to deal with that? Russell: Yeah. A couple things. One is like personality profiling is huge. In fact, we're working on a whole project right now and that'll probably be a book and a membership side, bunch of stuff, all based on personality profiling. Because that's how you understand like what motivates people? How do they speak? How do they not speak? How do they understand? Because again, Melanie and Jenny are very different people. But I'm able to work with both of them because I understood their personality types, I understood like, what are the things that would light Melanie up? What are the things that'd get Jenny excited to work? And vice versa. Like, if you look at Melanie was a very high S, so very faithful. And so like she would like die for you to be able to get something done. Jenny on their hand has very low S, almost no S. And so for her, it's like, man, if she gets bored, she's gone. So I got to make sure that she's got 8,000 projects and she's juggling them all. The more things she's having, the more successful she's going to be. Similar to me. And so I give her tons of projects and she thrives that she's able to juggle all these things. Whereas if I treat her like I taught Melanie, she would've been here for a week and a half, like, I'm out, like this is horrible. So understanding those kind of things. Like DISC profile's big, Meyers Briggs is big. Those are my two favorites. I'm trying to learn to master all the other ones, but those ones help a ton when you're hiring and all also when you're managing people. Josh: Yeah. Russell: The other thing is, this is one that helped me. Actually, Julie Story actually was one that taught it to me initially. And I don't remember all the things, but there's these different hats. There's like a black hat and a green hat and a red hat and yellow hat and all these things like that. So I'm a very green hat person, so are you. Put on the green hat and it's like creative ideas and we're flowing. I'm like, we get so excited about sharing stuff. And there's people who have like a black hats, they're the ones who always like ... they look at what could go wrong. What about this? And what about this? Josh: They take away all the fun. Oh my God. Russell: Yeah. Josh: They ruin it. Russell: And then like the white hats. So there's all these different hats. The ones I really remember is like green and black because I'm green hat. And like, Jamie Smith's a good example of a black hat. I love Jamie, one of my favorite humans in the world. But when we would do meetings together, I literally wanted jump over the table and strangle him. Because I'm like, "I did, I did, I did." And he's like, "Well, you think about this? You think about this? Think about this?" And like you're sucking the life out of me. Josh: Yeah. Russell: My wife's a very black hat person, as well. I'm like, "We should take the kids and like fly around the world and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Like just brainstorming things that are probably never going to happen. She's like, "What about this, this, this?" And so we started learning like based on this ... this is something that Julie brought that was really powerful. It was like, "Hey, we're in now in a green hat phase. Well, Russell's going to green hat, we're talking about ideas. No one's allowed to black hat this at all. Let's just share ideas." So then everyone's just sharing ideas and like, we have a chance to be excited and creative and get these things out there. And after it's like all the creative steps out, it's like, "Okay, now let's put a black hat on, now it's black hat this." And now we can all look at it objectively you're like, "Okay, we're going to black hat this and go through the black hat things." And then we put on a different colored hat and go through those things. Josh: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: And we go through different hats, but they're separately, they're not all happening at the same time. Because if it happens at the same time, it destroys my creativity and excitement and energy. I want to like strangle the person. But like, man, I need those people. I need Jamie to look at this and be like, "Here's 40 ways why this isn't going to work." Like, oh crap, I didn't think about that, that or that. We stack the different hats as opposed to doing them all at the same time and making us all want to kill each other. And that has been- Josh: That's so helpful. Russell: Huge for us. Like for me, it's huge. I always tell people like when I start brainstorming, like, "Okay, green hat time, no negative, no what ifs. Let's go." And then we just do that. And you see like the black hat people are like twitching and they're like, don't worry, you're going to get your shot, but not yet. Until everything's out and it's like, "Okay, black hat's on. What do you guys got?" And then they can go do their thing. Josh: You need some anxiety medication over there. Russell: Yeah. We can do a whole, like two day training on that, too. Because it's such a powerful thing. But conceptually, it's breaking those things in that way. Josh: All right, Russell. Well, in your other life, we'll just have an entire podcast where all we do is just do deep dives all day long. But in this life, we have to stick with constraints of where we're at. So anyway, thank you for sharing that. Super, super helpful. I appreciate it. Russell: No worries. Thank you, Josh. Appreciate you guys. Hopefully you enjoyed this episode. As you guys are building your teams, remember the principles we talked about. You've got to become the coach, you've got to attract A players, you got to put them in the right spots, figure out ways to make it profitable for them in the long term, figure out personality types, you can serve them the right way. Black hat, green hat, red hats. We should do an episode on just on all hat ... I have to go back to remember all the other colored hats. But anyway- Josh: All right, our next- Russell: There you go. Josh: Go around, I'll be like you have homework for this. Russell: Russell, prepare for this and we'll go. Josh: Prepare for this one. That'd be awesome. Russell: That'd be awesome. Thanks everyone for listening. Thank you, Josh. And we'll see you guys on the next episode.

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show
You Can Overcome Anything: Ep 191 - Achieving Success Through the Power of Forgiveness –Andrea Mason

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 7, 2022 54:14


In today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, CesarRespino.com brings to you a special guest by the name of Andrea Mason.Andrea has over 2 decades of experience in personal development. A Major in Psychology, BSW in (SocialWork), certified in Professional Organization and Entrepreneurship. The creator of the innovative and transformational journey helping you achieve personal freedom, utilizing the healing power of forgiveness called P.L.A.Y....she is your overall Accountability Coach, please welcome, Andrea MasonWhat is one major obstacle you had to overcome? She will offer each and every one of the listeners a complimentary 15 minute session. To qualify for this go to www.Andreamasons.com subscribe and enter your email address. And once you've done that email her with the message "You Can Overcome Anything Podcast," so that way I'll know it is coming from this class.Andrea's message to you is:Follow Your Heart and Not The Herd, while learning the healing power of forgiveness.To Connect with Andrea Mason go to:Andreamasons.com@am.andreamasonsAndrea Mason - FacebookAndrea Mason Your Personal Accountability Coach- YouTubeAndrea Mason - LinkedInTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

Wild & Basic
New Year’s Resolutions are Dumb

Wild & Basic

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 6, 2022 21:00


It's 2022. Gosh it really does sound like 2020 too I can't lol Anyways I'm talking about why new year's resolutions are dumb. I think having goals is a great thing especially if they are realistic, but this whole new year new me bs along with things we need to do in January. This all just seems so unrealistic so I thought I could shine a light on that and talk about some realistic ways to set goals any day not just the beginning of the new year. Today's episode brought to you by BetterHelp - Betterhelp.com/listener Please subscribe and leave a review on audio platforms as well :) Apple Podcasts: http://apple.co/2TF3VnS Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2AfNQia Google Podcasts: https://bit.ly/3pmXw09 Amazon: https://amzn.to/2FKeu5X Follow the podcast: @wildandbasic on IG or "Wild & Basic Podcast" on YouTube

Transparency
When you travel, you gotta go with the flow.

Transparency

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2022 13:10


Gosh, travel is hard! Especially traveling internationally to Amsterdam from America. During a full lockdown in Holland. Sharing some behind the scenes shenanigans of our Dutch adventures. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show
You Can Overcome Anything: Ep 190 - Overcoming Job loss & Near Bankruptcy - Jordan Montgomery

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 3, 2022 27:34


CesarRespino.com brings to you Jordan Montgomery to You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show.Jordan Montgomery, owner of Montgomery Companies, is a highly regarded performance coach and keynote speaker whose clients include business executives, sales organizations, and entrepreneurs.From small town Iowa, to a dominant force in the performance coaching industry, Jordan travels the country speaking and coaching executives at Fortune 500 companies, professional athletes, and sales people.In addition to his work speaking and coaching, Jordan is an accomplished business leader who has managed top-performing sales teams in the financial services industry.Jordan resides in Tiffin, Iowa with his wife Ashley, and his three daughters, Audrey, Claire, & Olivia. When he is not writing, coaching, or speaking, Jordan spends time with his family and enjoys the outdoors. He is a lover of sports and all things Iowa Hawkeyes!To connect with Jordan go to:www.montgomerycompanies.comInstagram: @jordanmmontgomeryTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

Finance Facts
What is a Black Swan?

Finance Facts

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 2, 2022 1:22


Gosh the phrase Black Swan refers to a fascinating theory that used to be considered fringe, but now is sorta mainstream so you do need to know about it. Let’s go!

The Marketing Secrets Show
BECOMING The Person Who Can Achieve Your Goals...

The Marketing Secrets Show

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 1, 2022 36:25


It's new years, and I know you have a lot of goals. Listen to this episode to find out how to become the person you need to be to actually achieve what you want! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today's episode, you guys have a chance to listening on a really fun actually interview that Josh Forti and I did today about goal setting and what that looks like. I know that we're... At the time we're recording this, it's almost the new year. And so he asked me the questions about how I set goals. How do I make sure I hit my goals and reach them? And what does that look like? And I was excited because it's actually a topic that I'm writing it sensibly about in my new book. And so anyway, a lot of things are top of mind, and we had some fun with it. It went longer than we thought. And so I had to go fast through some things. Someday maybe I'll do a three or five day or two week, two month long event teaching these topics. But hopefully it gives you a head start to kind of figure out what is you want in life? What kind of goals you want to set for this year, and then how you actually make sure you achieve those. Stuff that's fascinating to me and hopefully you guys will find some cool stuff in as well. And at the end of it, there's assignments, so make sure you do it. And if you do that, in fact, I'd block out two or three hours during this new year's break as you're figuring out what you want to with your life over the next 12 months and go through this audio and then actually do the assignment at the end. And if you that, your chances of hitting that goal will dramatically go up. All right, with that said, we're going to cue up the theme song. And when we get back, you have a chance to listen in on an interview with me and Josh Forti. What's up, everybody. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. Today I'm here once again with Josh Forti, and at the time we're recording this it's a little after Christmas. We're getting ready for the new year and world domination. I think today we're going to be talking about how to focus and goal setting, all that kind stuff. Is that right? Is that the- Josh Forti: Yeah. Today's episodes a good one. I'm so excited for this because I mean, we get to listen to Russell Brunson tell us how he picks his goals, how he's going to plan the world. It's going to be great. Russell: I'm excited too because some of you guys know I'm actually working off and on, just depends on, but I have another book in the works that I'm working on and it's my first personal development book. But for me, personal development's definitely around picking a target and running towards it with definiteness of purpose and trying to accomplish the thing. And so as I've been not... I wrote 200 pages of the book, and I told you this when you were out in Boise. Josh: I know. I'm waiting for my copy, Russell. Russell: And then I said, I hated it. So I got... I didn't hate the book. It's actually good stuff. I'm putting it in the new behind the scenes newsletter. I'm putting the chapters in there. So it's being reused, but I wasn't happy with how it turned out as a book book. And so I'm starting over from scratch and rethinking it all. And so that's the phase I'm in right now. But a lot of it is tied around what we're talking about today, so it should be good. I'm excited for this. Josh: Heck yeah. Awesome. Well, let's kick it off and get started with that note. So whenever we sit down for podcast, I go and it's interesting because now that we are doing so many, normally when I do long-form interviews or because we record in batches, right. Normally when I sit down, I'm just like record go. But you can only do that so many times with somebody before you have to start planning topics ahead a time, right? So I'm on the plane yesterday or a couple days ago, whenever we flew back home, and we got to upgrade to first class for like $47. It was great. I'm there on my computer, just have room. And so I was thinking, walking through the topics that we wanted to cover over the next couple episodes and one that kept coming up and my mind kept coming back to is goal setting. Right? We're sitting here. We're coming to the end of this year. The last two years have really just been crazy, right? Like 2020 was super, super uncertain. 2021 was a little bit more certain, but we all know we're not back to reality yet. Right? With everything. And so I was like, all right, how do you set goals? Not only in the midst of just chaos, but just in general, right? Because there's so many different ways you can think about goals and set goals and do targets and all the different things. And so as we wrap up this year, as we bring this year to an end, and as we look ahead to 2022, what are the areas specifically that you look at as far as setting goals, and how do you set goals effectively that you're going to stick to? Because I think that's a big thing for a lot of people is they can write down, like I want to make $1 million this year, or I want to lose weight. You know what I'm saying? But how do we actually do that? Right? Do you break it down? How does that work? Russell: Yeah. So I'd say, again, this is like, we could write a whole 25 book topic on this. So I'll just go over some of the highlights of things I think about. One of them actually I got from Scharf and that was interesting. He spoke at Funnel Hacking Live Orlando, and we did a little session on stage, and it was interesting because he was talking about it from a team building standpoint, but I took this principle back, and I started implementing it with my family and then in my own personal life. And he talked about how a lot of people set a goal like I want to make a million dollars. And he said if you structure it and if you look at it like a football game or a football team, it's different, right? He said, if you sit and look at the goals, there's always the main goal of anyone who's a football player. They want to be in the Hall of Fame. That's their legacy, their legend. There's the Hall of Fame goal. Right? And so that's the first thing is what's the Hall of Fame goal? And then you break it down from there and say okay, now what's the Super Bowl? What do you have to do to win the Super Bowl in football, what the Super Bowl for you, what it is. And then from there you break down to like, okay, what are the things you've got to do to win this game, this quarter, this half and things like that. Right? So it's breaking things down like that. And so I did this with my family like two or three years ago. It was really cool. We said for our family, what's our Hall of Fame goal for our family? What is the big thing where we're like, I made it into the Hall of Fame. I'm a legend. This is amazing. So we set a goal for the family. And I've been thinking about that with ClickFunnels and with me and my mission. What's my Hall of Fame goal? So that's the first thing to think through because it's not something like I'm going to get this year, I'm going to get it. But it's like, I've got to be doing a lot of things to eventually when I retire, I did this thing and I'm in the Hall of Fame, right? What is that for you? Because if you don't know what that is, it's hard to reverse engineer everything backwards. A lot of times entrepreneurs are good at just running, ready, fire, aim, but we're not thinking, and I'm as bad as anyone else. Right? Again, I want to make a million dollars. Then 10, then 100. You keep looking at these things as opposed to what's the end goal of where you're trying to get to. So that's first thing, Hall of Fame goal. And then what's your version in the Super Bowl? And the Super Bowl is more like, in my mind, the next 12 months, like what are you going to do, right? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And so that's the bigger one I think a lot of people are thinking about when you're trying to January 1st setting your New Year's goal. This is your Super Bowl goal. Next 12 months, this is the thing I want to accomplish. And it's not 12 things. Football teams aren't like, okay, I'm going to win the Super Bowl, and I'm going to win this. I'm going to win this. No, there's just one goal. There's one thing that you're focusing on. And then underneath there, there's all the things you've got to do to be able to accomplish that. And that's where these sub-goals come in. Right? And so that's the first phase. Any questions about it before I move on to the next? Josh: Yeah, well, no, just a comment on that. I was reading. I don't have the book next to me. The book Essentialism. Have you ever read that book? Russell: Yes. Back in the day, I did. Josh: Okay. Super, super good. Right? And one of the things that he talks about there is he's like, it's always funny to me when companies say that their company has a lot of priorities. He's like, you can't have a lot of priorities. You can have a priority and then everything else comes secondary. Right? So whenever I walk into a company they're like, our priority is customer service and this, and then list all the other ones. He's like, then you don't have any priorities. Right? And so he is like, when you sit down, what's the number one thing? What is the thing that if that thing happens, it is a success? Right? The whole year, that's what the thing was. And so sitting down, I noticed that for me and my company, for us, our number one priority for next year is not, yes, we have a revenue goal and yes, we have quarter goals and all the different things. But for us, the number one goal is we want to build the very best product in the space for what we do. Right? That is the goal. For 12 months, that is our goal. And so now everything else comes secondary. And so when you're talking about that is like, what is the goal? I love football, right? So football is how I do all my analogies? Right? The Super Bowl is the 12 month goal. Right? And what's interesting about that is the Super Bowl is a collective team goal. The Hall of Fame is an individual goal. Right? Which is super interesting because then you can have your own individual, but then as a team, and as I'm starting to grow a team more, things like that, having that really clear goal, I think, was really cool. So no, just some comments, but no questions on that. '. Russell: I love that. Very cool. So then, and you could tell who I'm studying right now by some of my phrases. I've been going deep into Napoleon Hill and Charles Haanel and all the old time people right now. That's where my mind's been with. And it's interesting because as I study all them, especially Napoleon Hill, what he talks about all the time is you've got to pick a goal, and then you have to move forward with definiteness of purpose. And he uses that phrase, and took me forever. Finally I couldn't even like say the word right because it's such a weird word, but definiteness of purpose. And when I think about that definiteness of purpose is like, this is what I'm doing, the Super Bowl. I'm going forward. There's the goal. I'm not just dabbling and hopefully I'll figure out my way. I've got my sights on the goal, and I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose. It means everything is going towards that thing. Right? And so, that's the biggest thing. And I was reading a Charles Haanel book last night, and he's the guy that wrote Master Key System and a bunch of other really cool old books. And what he talked a lot about is just desire. A Lot of people are like, oh, I want to go. I want to hit Two Comic Club, but then their desire isn't big enough to actually get them moving forward with definiteness of purpose. Right? And he shared this story, and I've heard this story a thousand times over the years. I'm sure everyone's heard it. I think my math teacher used to tell, he said it was Euclid that told this story. In this book it was someone different. I don't know what that story is, but basically the dude comes up to the gurus like, "I want to learn how to do whatever. I want to learn how to make money online. I want to learn how to whatever the thing is." Right? And so the guru's like, "Well meet me tomorrow morning at the beach, and I'll show you how to do that." So the next morning, meets the dude at the beach. The guru walks him out in the water, and they get deeper and deeper and deeper. And he gets the point where the water's up to the kid's head or whatever. And he grabs head and shoves it under the water, and he holds him there, and the guy's fighting and failing. And the point is where he is about to die. And then he pulls the guy out of the water and the guy's like, "What are you doing?" And he's like, "When you want the thing you want as bad as you wanted air, you're going to get it." And that's this desire thing. So we have the goal. We have to move forward with definiteness of purpose. That becomes the focal point of every thing we're doing. And then the last piece is that desire. Because most people that I find who don't have success, it's because they don't have desire. Right? For me, when I was wrestling, and I wanted to be state champ, I had so much desire. I couldn't stop thinking about it. It was day and night. I'd sit in class, and all I could think about was different wrestling moves and what I could do to increase my strength and my cardio better and how to get the moves better because my desire was so strong for that thing. And for me, business was the same one. When I got into business, I just wanted to figure this out and to make money and to grow a company. I had so much desire that it happened. Right? I think most people just don't have desire. Like, oh, let's just set a goal, and hopefully I make that. If that's what you're going into it, you're not going to be successful. What's the Yoda quote? Josh: Do or do not. There is no try. Russell: Yeah. If you ask him what's your goal? And they're like, "Oh, I'm going to try to whatever." It's like, you're not going to make it. Why not? Because you said I'm going to try to do it. Josh: Right. Russell: You have to be definiteness of purpose. I'm going to be a state champ. I'm going to hit it a Two Comma Club. I'm going to make a million dollars. I'm make 10, I'm going to make a hundred. I'm going to get to a billion dollars. I'm going to get to 200,000 customers. This is what I am doing. And my desire's high. I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose, and that's where it begins with. Josh: Yeah, and I think part of the thing that goes with that is Tony Robbins. Gosh, every time you bring Tony Robbins in, it's never bad. Right? You could do that every single year, and it would never get old. Right? . Russell: Yeah. Josh: But he says this a million times. He's like, you have to be so specific with what you want. Right? He's like people come to me all the time and I've heard him say this a million times, but just, we got second row right behind you because Parker Woodward came over. Shout out, Parker. He's like staring into your soul. And he's like, you want a million? And he is like, you want more money? Fine. Here's a dollar. You have more money move. Get out of my way. Right? Or get out of here. I'm like, dang. Right? If you're not so specific with what you want, you'll get it. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? But it's not going to be what you actually want because you're not specific with it. And so with definiteness of purpose, I feel like one of the keys to that is to be very specific with what that purpose is. Russell: Yep. Yep. Josh: You know what I'm saying? Russell: Oh, I want to get better. I want to get, yeah. It's got to be something tangible. You can touch it. And you know when you got it. You know when you went to the Super Bowl if you got to the Super Bowl or not. You can be like where's your goal last year? Oh, did you hit it? Oh, I don't know. Therein lies the problem. Right? That specific goal, move forward with definiteness of purpose because your desire's not high enough. You don't know if you hit it or not? That's a problem. Josh: Yeah. One more thing on that. I think it also helps you if you can get really... Setting clear goals is like a muscle, I feel like. It's a skillset that's learned. And I was listening to Alex Becker, which I know you know Alex. And dude's like just a mega-genius man. His mind. If I can ever get him on the podcast, I'll let you know because- Russell: You'd get a 30-second podcast with him. Josh: Right. Right. It'd be a profanity-laced thing full of truth. And you'd be like, wow, I have to process. Anyway, I was listening to him. I was watching his training on YouTube Ads and going through. And he is like, what people need to understand is that all of marketing is the exact same thing when it comes to running ads. Right? And actually I still have it written up on my board. He goes, every single person wants the exact same thing. They want a result. They want a consistent system to get there, and they want it fast. That's it. Right? He's like, if you just are able to specifically call out the result, provide the specific system to get there, and do it faster than anybody else, you will win every single time. Right? I feel like a lot of goal setting is that. Right? It's what is the result that you're actually trying to go after and get to? If you're not specific on that result, try marketing something where there's no specific outcome. It's so hard. Right? And so the more clear you can get on that specific outcome, the more clear that you can get on the outcome that you're providing for your customer. I feel like that's a learned skill that transfers in other areas besides just goal setting. You know what I mean? Russell: Oh, for sure. That's awesome. Josh: Yeah. Russell: Becker's smart, man. I did one call with him one time, and it was literally like three minutes long. He's like, "Kid, it's all I got," and it was done. I was like, that was amazing. Anyway, so. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Becker, he's a freak of nature. That's for sure. Russell: Yeah. Okay, I got four more things to talk about related to it. Josh: Okay. Russell: I got this from Tom Bilyeu because Tom's one of those people who is again, just brilliant. And he said something in three or four podcasts, just kind of like as a blah, blah, blah. Just went off on it. And I remember one day, so I finally, I messaged him on text message. I sent an audio message. I was like, okay, you said this. I want to make sure I understand this right. And he wrote back to me, and he messages back. He's like kind of, but you kind of got it all wrong. I'm like, what? So I scheduled a call with him because I was like, I'm writing this book and this thing you just shared was so powerful. I need to map it out. So I spent an hour with him on the phone and mapped it out. I drew it out. I was like, is this what you're talking about? He's like, "Oh yeah. That's what I'm talking about." So it's going to be in the new book because it's core foundational. I'm going to go through with you guys because a lot of times, and I didn't know this, there were things that I did unconsciously related to these things, but now that I consciously know this, I'm going deep in it. In fact, I'm planning our Two Comma Club X Managed Circle members are going to Mexico in March, and I'm thinking I'm going to do a three-day event in Mexico just going deep on this alone because this is the key to everything you want in life. So there's the pre-frame you guys ready for me to jump? Josh: I'm ready. I'm hooked. Russell: Okay. So what Tom said was interesting. He said a lot of times we set a goal, but what we don't realize is that for us to get the goal, we can't be who we are today. Because if we were, we'd already have the thing, right? We have to actually evolve and change and become something different if we're going to achieve the thing we do. So then how do you become something different? And that's where you're in this weird limbo thing. Right? And so there are four core things that really tie into this. And so I'll talk briefly on each one as much as we can in the time we have. So the first one is after you know this is the goal, very specific, definiteness of purpose. I desire to go there. The first thing we have to do is have an identity shift. Right? Our identity has to be different than what we are right now. If we don't shift it, then we struggle. So I started looking back at the things I've had success in life. For me, the very first one was a wrestler. And I remember I got into wrestling. I liked it. And I was good at it, but I wasn't great. I don't have time probably to tell the specific story, but I remember a specific story where something happened where that day I was like, I'm a wrestler. This is me. This is who I am. I'm a wrestler. And as a wrestler, I'm going to do what wrestlers do. Right? And Tom, when I was talking to him, I mentioned that. And he's like, now imagine this. Instead of saying I was a wrestler, what if you said I'm a world class wrestler or I'm a state champion wrestler. He's like just by changing the identity that you're putting on yourself, changes how you view everything. Right? And for me, I viewed myself as a champion wrestler, and I view myself like I'm someone who's a state champion. Therefore, I started looking at what do the state champions do? How are they doing it? What do they believe? What do they think? What do they do? What do they value? And I started matching my beliefs, values, and rules based on that. But the first thing is that you have to realize what's the identity you want to put on yourself? And I think most people don't do it consciously. I didn't do it consciously. But when you become aware of it, it changes things. At Funnel Hacking Live, Anthony Trucks talked about identity, and it was such a powerful thing. If we figure out how to put these identities on ourselves, it makes everything else become easier. So the first thing is understanding, okay, what's the identity I've got to put on my shoulders if I'm going to become the person who's going to be able to reach that goal? And we've got to think through that and strategize and figure that out because if you don't, if you pick the wrong identity, like, oh, I'm an athlete, that's good. But I'm not become a world class wrestler if my identity's an athlete. If my identity is I'm a world class wrestler, I'm going to become a world class wrestler. Right? You've got to... When I got into business, it was the same thing. I was dabbling and dabbling and dabbling until I figured out I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And then after that, it wasn't just an entrepreneur. It's shifting, and it's changed throughout time, but the identity is the key because everything struck. You start doing things differently when you have a different identity. One of the identities I've I've recently, and I did a podcast about this, that I've put on myself is that I'm not just an entrepreneur or I'm not like... I'm a curator. And just by me saying that, I've literally bought, I would say conservatively, probably 3000 books in the last three months that I'm buying that I'm going through them, curating old books, trying to figure out all these kind of things because I have the identity. I put the identity upon myself, and all of a sudden, it shifts my behavior because of that. Josh: Yeah. Russell: So identity's the first thing. And again, we could talk for a day on identity, but understanding what is the identity that you're going to have to have to be able to become the person who's going to go get that thing. Josh: Okay. Can I touch on that just really briefly? Russell: Yeah. Josh: Okay. Only because, I don't know, I've spent like a hundred thousand dollars in coaching on this exact topic. So it was so crazy, when I was working with Katie and lots of other people. Have you ever read the book Psycho-Cybernetics? Russell: Yes. Josh: Dude, that book changed. That was the first personal development book I ever read. Russell: I'm trying to find the rights to that book right now, just so you know. Josh: Dude. Dude, ah. Russell: It's so good. Josh: Why do you get to do all cool stuff, Russell? Russell: Curating, that's my identity. It's what I do. Josh: Yeah. But I read that book and it, I mean, it completely changed my whole perspective on life. Right? And for the premise of the book, for those of you don't know, there's a guy. He was a plastic surgeon. He rebuilds people's faces and stuff. And he realized that when he would make even the smallest tweaks in people's faces that it would change their entire life. Everything about their life and their change based on how they saw themselves basically in the mirror. Right? And so this whole premise of the identity, part of it is when you have an identity shift, you actually believe it now. And there's so many people that are like, they want something, but the reason they don't do it is because they don't believe it's possible. They see themself as the person that's able to do that. Right? And so one of the things I thought about doing with the podcast sometime down the road is openly Dream 100ing people. How cool would it be to have on the board of, "Hey guys, we're all Dream 100ing Elon Musk right now." Right? How cool would that? But if you have the identity I'm going to Dream 100 Elon Musk, then all of a sudden, it just becomes, oh, for the next three, five, 10 years, it doesn't matter if you haven't gotten there yet. That's just who you are. It's just what you're trying to do. It's just what you're doing. And by default, your brain starts thinking differently. So anyway, I love that. I don't want to take anymore out of that, but that one concept changed my whole entire life of understanding that if you shift your identity, by default, you'll get to where you want to go. Russell: Yeah. It's huge. And again, I look at the things I've been successful in my life in, and again, looking backwards, I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize that I had an identity shift tangible. And in fact, I remember the day that it happened, and it changed everything for me. It was the day I became a wrestler. It was the day I became an entrepreneur. It was the day... It shifts things. And so, ah, anyway, so that's number one. So identity. Now under identity, if you look at my graphic, identity is at the top, and there's three pillars that go underneath identity. And they're all super powerful, and they all have different purposes and things. So if you look at one of the legs under identity is beliefs. What do you believe? And beliefs are cool. Because beliefs, I feel like beliefs can change. I have to figure what are the beliefs I need to have to be able to achieve this thing, right? If I believe that making money's difficult, I am not ever going to make money. If I believe making money's easy, it's going to be really easy for me to make money. Right? If I believe that I'm a good athlete, I'm going to be able to be a good athlete. If I believe that eating healthy is going to make me have more success, I'm probably going to eat more healthy. And so in the second phase, figure out what are these beliefs that you need to have? And some of them you already have inherently, a lot of them you don't yet. And so that's why when you have this identity, it's like, well man, if I want to be a world class wrestler, what do world class wrestlers believe? If I want to be an entrepreneur, what do world class entrepreneurs believe? Right? What are those beliefs? That is sitting down physically, I've been doing this recently. This is part of my New Year's thing I'm doing now is I'm listing out here are all the things I either believe or I need to believe to be able to hit this goal. Right? And so I start writing out these beliefs. Now the thing about beliefs that's hard is just by you writing down I believe this thing, does not necessarily mean you're going to believe that thing. Josh: Yeah. Russell: And this is where like most of personal development is affecting this tier, this leg of this thing. If I knew to believe I need to be successful, like I'm going to go read a bunch of Tony Robbins books because he's going to help me instill this belief in me until I actually believe it. Or I'm going to listen to a bunch of podcasts or whatever that thing might be. Right? Or if I believe that eating healthy is going to make me more successful. You may say I know I need that belief, but I don't really believe right now. That's why I keep going back to cookies and candies and ice cream or whatever. Right? So you need to instill that belief, so this is where a personal development comes. If I believe this belief is going to help me get the thing I need to do, I need to go listen to everybody that's talking about health or fitness or whatever that is until that belief becomes so ingrained in my psyche that now I actually believe it. Because when I believe it, now it becomes really easy to do. When I believed in wrestling that if I got on top of anybody in this country that I could turn them, then guess what? As soon as I got on top of anybody in this country, I could turn them, right? Because I believed it at such a deep level. I always tell people my core job at ClickFunnels is be the belief cheerleader. If I can get you guys to believe in yourselves, that's it because it's not that difficult. All these things are not hard. The hardest thing is getting you to believe it's actually going to work. Right? And believe if I buy ads, it's going to work, believing that I'm going to lose money on the front end, but it's going to be successful. I believe that if I put myself out there, it's not going to be scary. I believe, so it's like, I've got to get you to believe those things, but if you can do it, then it becomes easy. So I look at who's already achieved what I want? What are the things that they believe? And then I've got to start focusing on getting those beliefs wired into my brain so that I actually believe them. Okay? Josh: Yeah. Russell: And I always tell people this, the biggest problem we have as humans is we always want to try to conform the world to what we believe, and that's not the right strategy. Especially, I see this in religion all the time where people are trying to convince like, this is what God should believe. It's like, no, no, no. If you really want to be successful in religion, you've got to figure out what does God believe? And then you shift your beliefs to that. You don't try to bend God's will to yours. That's insane. Why would you even think that's okay. We need to believe that he believes, it's not trying to get him to believe what I believe. Right? And that's the extreme example is religion in God, but it's true in anything. Right? If I was going to be basketball player, I would go figure out what Michael Jordan believes, and I would do everything I can to believe what he believes. I would not be trying to conform Michael Jordan's belief patterns to mine. Okay? Because he's done it, and I haven't yet. Right? And so that's the next step is figuring out what are the beliefs I have to have to be successful? And then I've got to go and start plugging the stuff into my ears and my head and be reading and listening and everything until these beliefs become so real that they become real. Because that's the hardest thing. The beliefs are the one, the other two I'm going to share are much more simpler, I think. Beliefs are the ones that are, they come and they go. And this is where it takes the mental mind power to make those things actually stick. Does that make sense? Josh: Yeah. Yeah. No for sure. No, I have so many thoughts on that. But for the sake of time, oh my gosh. Belief, I think that's the hardest thing. Like you said, it's one of the hardest things though. But I love the religion example because it's like, what was that? There's that one quote on it that says we will question everything except for the things we truly believe. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? And religion is a perfect example of this. I believe that Jesus came down to die on the cross for my sins. I believe that. Russell: Yeah. Josh: I've never even questioned it, and I've questioned pretty much everything in my belief. But I'm like, if I believe Christianity to be true, I by default believe that. Right? I believe that that happened. And so when I talk to people that don't have that world view, you're not even having the same conversation. It's not even worth debating on some particular topic about right or wrong or this because they don't believe this and I do. And it's a fundamental different thing about you. So yeah, anyway. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Talk a million years on it. Russell: That's true because, so when I'm on mission for my church, I, not to get religion, but I had that same thing. I was out there knocking on doors, telling people about God and about Jesus. And all of a sudden I realized, oh my gosh, most people don't believe in this. Josh: Right. Russell: And it was freaky for me. All the way back to do I actually believe in Christ? Do I actually believe there's a God? And I had to question those things and figure it out and get the belief. And then it was strengthening everything I was doing moving forward. But same thing in anything we're doing in life. So beliefs are beliefs. Josh: We'll do the Mormon episode because I have questions for you on that. I've got to finish the podcast first. We're not done all the way done yet. But that'll come once I know everything you believe, Russell, then I'm going to come question you on it. Russell: Yeah. I'm excited. One thing it'd be cool if you guys want, if you type in to Google type in Tom Bilyeu Impact Theory beliefs. He actually has a list that he makes all people who join his member site go through these belief patterns. And they're fascinating. And it's seeing Tom mapping out for his community here's the beliefs that we have as a community if we're going to have the impact. And so it's worth it to go look at his beliefs. It's as related to his members and his membership platform. But it's something you guys can use this as well if you are serving group of entrepreneurs or a group of whoever you're serving, when they come in, helping them to identify and strength. Like these are a the beliefs you have to have to be successful in our world. And Tom did it such a cool way. I've not yet done that in my world, but I'm planning on that because again, if people are joining my coaching program, they want to become more like me, therefore, what do I believe that got me here? I need to be able to identify those things and give them to people and then help drill those things into their mind because that's what's going to be successful as they believe those things. And so belief is just, anyway. We can go again, this is another three day event just on beliefs. Josh: All right, all right. Russell: Okay. I'll go through the other two. The other two are not simpler, but they're easier. Okay, so we have identity at the top, right? Identity shift, boom. Beliefs, and again, map these things out, you guys literally between now and New Year's or whatever you're listening to this, sit out and write out here's all the beliefs I have to believe to be able to be successful in this thing that I'm trying to figure out. And for me, it's funny as I've been doing this, I've been listening to a lot of Tony Robbins's stuff or reading Napoleon Hill. Tony will tell, like when he speaks, he's like, you've got to believe this, and he shares a belief. And I started putting those things in. Like I want to keep building up my belief. These are all things I believe in because if I can believe those things in myself, again, my likelihood of success. So this is an ever-going thing. It's not just like, here's my beliefs, and it's done. It's like if you're hearing speakers or podcasts or books or whatever, like, oh this is the belief I need to have. I see why this is such a powerful thing to start adding these things into your version of your beliefs. Okay? The next one. So you have your beliefs. The next one I'm going to go to is values. And values and beliefs are very similar, but values, I feel like, are more so... Beliefs are things that I've got to be working on to get myself the belief things to move forward. Values are what I actually value. For me, I value hard work. Okay? In fact, I have so many friends who their beliefs are different. One of my really good friends, John Jonas, who owns OnlineJobs.ph, super successful company, great entrepreneur. But he values being able to work as little as humanly possible and still make money. And he does. And he's been very successful. I value working my face off because my whole value system growing up was wrestling. We worked hard. We had at work everybody. So I value hard work, and I love it, and I enjoy it, and I'm never going to... My values are not John's, and that's okay. They're going to be different, but I need to know what my values are because if I'm going to go into something, if this is not aligned with my values, I'm not going to have success with it. So I need to know what my values actually are. And so what are the things you value? I value hard work. I value giving. I value creation. I value... Top of my head, I don't have my list here, but what are the things you actually value? Okay? And then as you're looking- Josh: We know hard work has to be close to the top of that list because that's the one that came out first when you can't remember anything else. Russell: And for sure, for me, it is. It's such a core value. But if me and John were both going after the same goal, which is let's grow our company by whatever, he's going to struggle because his value's not going to be hard work, and vice versa, for he's like I want to take four to five days of vacation every single month, that goal is never going to work for me because I don't value those things like he does. And so it's going to be constant odds with ourselves. Right? So listing out here's all the values you have and understanding those things and again, you can shift your values and values change. But values are harder to change, I believe. Beliefs, I can change, not faster, but those things are multiple whereas values, based on my life experience, these are things I value, and those things are there. They're not going to shift or disappear or leave. These are my values. Josh: Yeah, very rarely. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Yeah. Russell: But if I list those things then I can look at as I'm trying to become this person, do these fit in my values? If not, it's like, how do I structure this in a way where it still fits and it's still congruent with my values because otherwise you're going to be odds to yourself. And I know so many people who are like, they have one value but they have a goal and they're those things are at odds with each other. And that's why they never succeed because they're just, I want this goal, but I don't value this. Therefore, you can't hit it. Josh: Yep. Russell: So beliefs, values, and the last ones are your rules. Okay? And your rules are like, you set up these, it's almost like guideposts to get the thing. Right? So when I was wrestling, I had a lot of rules. My rules were I do not cut corners. I have a story behind that, but I do not cut corners. I don't drink carbonation. One of my other rules was I'll never go more than 24 hours without doing some kind of cardio because I had a belief that after 24 hours, if I haven't worked out that my cardio would drop down, and I didn't want to lose anything. So I had a rule saying I cannot work out. So I could take Sunday off, but I can't take Saturday and Sunday. Right? I had a rule of no more than 24 hours of no cardio. I had rules of what time I woke up in the morning, what time I went to bed. I had all these rules, and rules bleed into routines. Right? So you set these rules, and from there you create a routine. So looking back, here's the goal I have, I'm moving forward with definiteness of purpose. Here's all the rules I have to create to give me boundaries to make sure that I move forward and I hit those things. And so for me, my rules right now are like, okay, I have to make sure I write for two hours every morning before I come in. Because if I don't do that, none of my writing gets done. I have a rule about this and rule about this, and I have these different rules I create for myself to give me boundaries, to be able to actually hit my goal. And then the rules again, here's the rules. The rules are translating into routines. Right? So here's my rules. I tie these into my morning routines, my afternoon routines, my night routines. And now I've got the things I need to guide me to the goal. Whew. So there's a lot of stuff in there. Josh: That's really, really good though. I feel like if someone were to just go and apply that right there, that sounds simple, but it's not. Russell: Yeah. Josh: Right? If you were to actually go sit down like that, you could map out that for a while, and I see why you want to do a three day event on it or something like. That'd be awesome to go through each one of those because you're literally rewriting. So how I think of the mind is I think of the mind as a computer system, and then the story, the master story, ha-ha. The master story of your mind. Right? But the master story is the computer program that you program it. Right? So there's the Windows operating system inside of a computer, right? Or the Mac. And so the master story is like the operating system. And by going through and identifying and writing down those three things, it's like you're rewriting your operating system almost that by, or if you've never done it, you're writing your operating system because your subconscious mind by default then just carries that 80% of the way. Right? And that's the coolest thing is if you can just switch your subconscious mind, 80% of the work is done. It'll do it for you. Right? You've only got to battle that last 20%. So that's super cool. Russell: Yeah. So if we were to recap this really quick, for those who are like, I want to do this exercise with my kids or my family or by myself, I sit down and say, "Okay, what's the Hall of Fame goal?" Where do you want to go someday? Right? So you've got that, right? Then from there, say, "What's the Super Bowl goal?" That's what I'm going to accomplish the next 12 months. Here's my Super Bowl goal. And I have that, and say, "Okay, now to do this, I've got to have desire, and I've got to have definiteness of purpose." Meaning I have to really, really want the thing or it's not going to happen. Why do I want it? How do I amplify that desire in my head? And where am I going, right? Now we come back and say, "Okay, what's the identity I need to take on to be able to achieve this thing?" Right? And be specific with the identity. I'm a wrestler versus I'm a world class wrestler versus I'm an Olympic level wrestler. Right? So here's the identity to have. So write that down. And identity is just one thing. This is the one thing I am. Then now what are all the beliefs I have that I need to have to be able to be successful in this thing? Okay, I've got to believe this. I've got to believe this. I've got to believe this. This is what I already do believe, but a lot of it's new beliefs I need to create to be able to be successful. Right? And then who are the things I value and making sure I'm not out of alignment here. I value this. I value this. Here are the things I value. And then here's the rules I need to create for myself to make sure I actually move forward and hit that thing. And I'm going to take these roles, and I'm going to convert them into routine to make sure that I'm in the guardrails to my success. And so that's the pieces and ah, it's so much fun. Again, this will be a book someday if I ever get it done. But these are the pieces that are- Josh: Yeah, Russell, we need it. Come on, man. Not like your life's busy. Get it done. Russell: I'm working my fastest. It's going to be amazing. So anyway, I hope that helps you guys. As you're sitting down this year, this is literally what I'm doing. We're recording this December 28th. I've been mapping these things out. And my goal is January 1st, I'm waking up, and I'm just going to sit down and I'm going to flush these things and spend hours just putting it... Again, I've been percolating on them and taking notes on stuff, and I'm going to map it out, have it printed out. And this is the next 12 months of my life. This is the goal. This is where we're going and moving forward with definiteness of purposes. I'm going to just amplify my desire. Here's the identity I've got to take on to make it successful. Here's my beliefs, my rules, my values. And let's go and start running. So hopefully that helps. Josh: One more super rapid fire question then we can wrap it up. Russell: Okay. Josh: Do you have a coach that helps you with this, or do you do it all yourself? Russell: Oh, very good question. So during my life, I always go on and off with different coaches that have helped different parts. Right now. I do not have a coach. How do you say this right without being creepy. I don't have a coach who's living right now. Right now I am looking at authors as my coach. And for me right now, Napoleon Hill is the person I'm focusing on, who I'm literally going through so much of his stuff right out and having him accountable to me. I will in the near future rehire a coach to help me, but I'm still trying to, I don't know if that makes sense or not, but I'm trying to- Josh: Yeah, no, no, for sure. Russell: Yeah. Josh: That's awesome. That's good. Russell: Anyway. Josh: All right. Thanks Russell. That was awesome. Russell: Hope you guys enjoy it. If you enjoyed this episode with me and Josh, please let us know. Take a screenshot of the podcast on your app, tag me in it. Let us know your favorite thing, biggest takeaway. And with that said, I hope you guys enjoy the new year, planning it out. And I want you to all hit your Super Bowl goals over the next 12 months. So let's do it. If you do that, you'll change the world in your own little way, and it'll be awesome. So thanks, Josh. Thanks everybody, and we'll see you guys on the next episode.

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show
You Can Overcome Anything: Ep 189 - Growth by Facing Uncertainty and Fear – Dylan & Mitchell

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 31, 2021 40:39


In today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, CesarRespino.com brings to you two guests - Dylan Roberson and Mitchell Cowburn.Dylan and Mitchell met in school and began their business partnership in door to door sales selling smart home technology. Living on the road, in and out of trucker motels working a commission based job showed one another their true colours and this was where the high level of mutual respect came from. After school, Mitchell approached Dylan with the business concept of changing the world of real estate through sustainability, Dylan accepted the offer and two formed New Earth Solutions in Oct of 2018. For the first two years of business they lived in a house where you were just as likely to find a dirty spoon in the kitchen as you would a Respira prototype. They've since moved out and are expanding their business across North America and Europe. After two years selling commercial living walls to architects and designers they have recently launched their D2C product. The units are on the water and arriving in North America this December.Dylan's and Mitchell's message to you is:Seek out where your fear exists and move towards it. This is where the greatest rewards exist.To connect with Dylan and Mitchell go to :info@newearthsolutions.ca@respira_air on all social media platformsTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

A Rational Fear
Best Sketches of 2021 — Cash For Comment

A Rational Fear

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 30, 2021 59:31


tv new york women google australia new zealand australian china summit ceo america head speaking apple christmas god earth myanmar college uk world house nasa texas president renaissance hawaii strange donald trump gosh chucky internet melbourne united states borders north korea press white house planet earth fantastic portuguese lan abc air force one emperors ernie trolls microsoft adam sandler virgin father morrison glasgow blessed myspace defense swiss cost commonwealth steel guys canberra walk parliament catholic santa claus labour cancel new south wales spanish civil war angus olympic games foxtel sooner premier disgusting wilco joe biden southeast asian sketches prime minister bing rupert greatest shut statistics jesus christ david attenborough rupert murdoch minister pentecostal catholics qr john singleton parliament house digit fisa ps channel nine asio accountability earthlings bill gates boomer daily mail liberal aha sec news corp gabby mps jenin gst jon lovitz arctic monkeys mark zuckerberg solitaire personally tata barnaby public service rugby union deputy prime minister thank god amen paladin corona tom ballard areas bingbing gary moore australian government attorney general qantas sky news darrow jonestown dan murphy virginia gay sincerely high court herald sun net zero west gate bridge task force yahweh latham chem national party graham kennedy daily telegraph boston consulting group new journalism ndis liberal party half price scott morrison gilad anzacs peter dutton pps bhp werribee nbn harvey norman melbourne comedy festival mark latham lmp wallabies triple x alan jones virgin australia wilker pds kangaroo island barnaby joyce astrazeneca keulen ilitch mike walsh australian bureau lnp bondi beach angus taylor transcribed nazi party dan ilic environment minister anthony kelly jake brown christian porter morison mosman dawood unknown speaker lgs robert menzies white lotus lord jehovah coronavirus ted hamilton covid-19 pfizer covid brittany higgins
Healthy Wealthy & Smart
571: Dr. Jenna Kantor: 2021 Wrap Up: The Highs, the Lows, and In-between

Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 30, 2021 49:42


In this episode physical therapist and podcast cohost, Dr. Jenna Kantor talks about the highs, the lows, and everything in-between from the past year.  We talk about:  The effects of Covid-19 on life and the practice of physical therapy  Online bullying in the physical therapy world  Realizing the importance of friendship  The mental shifts we experienced over the past year  What we are looking forward to in 2022 And much more!    More about Dr. Jenna Kantor:  Jenna Kantor, PT, DPT, is a bubbly and energetic woman who was born and raised in Petaluma, California. She trained intensively at Petaluma City Ballet, Houston Ballet, BalletMet, Central Pennsylvania Youth Ballet, Regional Dance America Choreography Conference, and Regional Dance America. Over time, the injuries added up and she knew she would not have a lasting career in ballet. This lead her to the University of California, Irvine, where she discovered a passion for musical theatre.  Upon graduating, Jenna Kantor worked professionally in musical theatre for 15+ years then found herself ready to move onto a new chapter in her life. Jenna was teaching ballet to kids ages 4 through 17 and group fitness classes to adults. Through teaching, she discovered she had a deep interest in the human body and a desire to help others on a higher level. She was fortunate to get accepted into the DPT program at Columbia. During her education, she co-founded Fairytale Physical Therapy which brings musical theatre shows to children in hospitals, started a podcast titled Physiotherapy Performance Perspectives, was the NYPTA SSIG Advocacy Chair, was part of the NYC Conclave 2017 committee, and co-founded the NYPTA SSIG. In 2017, Jenna was the NYPTA Public Policy Student Liaison, a candidate for the APTASA Communications Chair, won the APTA PPS Business Concept Contest, and made the top 40 List for an Up and Coming Physical Therapy with UpDoc Media. ​Jenna Kantor currently holds the position of the NYPTA Social Media Committee, APTA PPS Key Contact, and NYPTA Legislative Task Force. She provides complimentary, regularly online content that advocates for the physical therapy profession. Jenna runs her own private practice, Jenna Kantor Physical Therapy, PLLC, and an online course for performing artists called Powerful Performer that will launch late 2019. To learn more, follow Jenna at:  Website: https://www.jennakantorpt.com/ Facebook Instagram Twitter Fairytale Physical Therapy   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:                https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here 00:00 Hey. Hey, Jenna, welcome back to the podcast for our annual year and Roundup, if you will. And I want to thank you for being a great addition to the podcast and for pumping out really amazing podcast episodes, you're great hosts, the energy is fantastic. And the podcast episodes are always great. So I want to thank you for that.   00:27 Oh, my God, you're so sweet. I like I was definitely not as much of a podcaster this year, I acknowledge that. But hey, listen, we've all been adjusting this year to pandemic and now pandemics still happening, but also recovery. And I'm just grateful to still be a part of this podcast in any manner to be in this interview right now. Because I really, you and I are very much on the same page regarding remaining evidence based and speaking to people that we respect in this industry, and also people that we want to see just rise and have great success. So I'm just grateful to be honestly, I am humbled to still be in the room here with you.   01:11 Thank you. That's so nice. So kind. Now, let's talk about this past year. So 2021, obviously dominated by the ups and downs of COVID, which is still going on as we speak. We're we're both in the northeast, so we're experiencing an incredibly high surge at the moment. So COVID is obviously a big story. And I think part of the COVID journey that isn't being talked about as much. But I think general public, certainly the mainstream media, are people now living with long COVID. It is just something that seems to be skimmed over. And we know that at least at least the bare minimum is 10% of people diagnosed with COVID will go on to have symptoms of long COVID. And instead of some of the studies that I have read recently, those percentages are much, much higher. So what I guess, what is your take on all of that? And what do you think we as physical therapists can do to keep this in the in the forefront of people's minds.   02:23 We discussed this before, but I think there's going to be bias within this. So I want to acknowledge that we all have our biases. That being said, I think we need to first acknowledge there was a phase where there was a part of the world that did not think COVID was real. So based on the research that is out there, and personal experience of a lot of people getting it, as well as personal friends very close personal friends working in hospitals in New York, specifically COVID is real. So I want to say that first. I'm not going to differ from that I really wish there I'm I think we're past that in the world. I think there was never a clear cut of like, Oh, I got it, I see that it's real. I was wrong. I would have liked that moment, because that hurt people in the process. But I just want to say that first. So COVID is real. Okay. Now, let's not belittle it. And I think in regards to the patient care. I think this, the reality of long COVID needs to be just as respected. Just like when you have a patient that comes in the door and says they're in pain, and you don't believe them. We need to stop that. So we need to believe them and their symptoms, and what they have and what it's from and treat it accordingly. Because if we go in the door to help out these individuals who are struggling with this, they're not going to get better. What are your thoughts?   03:59 No, I agree. I agree. And I've heard from people living with long COVID that people don't believe them even their own family members, people in who work in medicine, they don't believe them. So I think that's a huge takeaway that if as clinicians we can do one thing sit down Listen, believe because the symptoms that they're having are real. We did a couple of episodes on long COVID thing was back in August and spoke with three amazing therapists and they're all involved with long COVID physios so if anyone out there wants more information on living with long COVID I would definitely steer you to long COVID physio on Twitter and and their website as well. Because they're a wealth of knowledge. These are people living with long COVID their allies, they are researchers and I think they're putting out some amazing information that can help not just you as the clinician, but if you know someone that maybe you're not doing directly treating maybe it's a family member living with long COVID I think the more information you have, the more power you can kind of take back to yourself.   05:10 I love that. I love that. It's the biopsychosocial model. I mean to that I from working because I work specifically more with performers, the psychosocial component, my my patients, my people I call my people, my people would not be getting the results they're getting if I didn't have to deal with that, with them standing by their side, holding their hands helping them through and out of their pain. There's symptoms every day and this that goes for anything.   05:41 Yeah. And and we now know, speaking of performers that a lot of Broadway shows are being sort of cancelled, and then restarted and canceled and restarted because of COVID outbreaks within the cast. So this may be something people might think, Oh, I work with performers. I don't have to worry about long COVID Well, maybe you do.   06:01 Yeah. Yeah. And for them, it's the, from the performance that I'm in contact with on Broadway that, you know, it's I'm, I'm, I'm very connected. I've been in the musical theater industry for a very long time. So for the people who are on Broadway, the individuals I spoken to, they're doing okay, which I'm really, really grateful for. It is a requirement for the performers to be triple vaccinated, and now they're getting triple vaccinated. I know one performer on Broadway, who was about to get her booster shot, and then ended up getting COVID, which was quite unfortunate. She's doing okay, though. Grateful, no signs of long COVID Right now, but for the performers, you're talking about dance, there's endurance and breathing that is necessary. If the singers even if they're, they're not dancing, they still dance, they're still asked to do things, they still have out of breath, emotional moments, were breathing is challenged. So I'm just bringing up one component with long COVID. But that's, that's a big standout for performers specifically, that need, it needs to be kept out for them. I remember one time during, oh, goodness, during 2020. And it was the latter portion of the year. And I was doing virtual readings with performers. That's how I was staying connected with my my friends and people in the industry. And it was our way of being creative. In the meantime, while we're waiting for things to open back up. And one individual is she what I just cast her to read as the lead in the show, and she was so good. It was my first time hearing her perform first time meeting her. She was Outstanding, outstanding. And at the end of it, we were going around checking in with each other how we were doing and she started to cry and opened up about losses and her family due to COVID. And that she didn't think she would be able to sing like that again, because she had been dealing with her breathing problems for so long. And so then we all get emotional with her. I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. So yeah, it's it's a it's a real thing. We didn't have the vaccination then. So I'm interested to see statistically where we are at with long COVID with having the antibodies in our systems. Obviously, everybody is different, but I'm hoping that there's less of it because of the vaccine.   08:25 Yeah, time will tell right? Yeah, we have we need those data points. So aside from obviously COVID being, I think the biggest story of the year, certainly within healthcare and even within our field of physical therapy. What else have you seen over 2021? Or maybe it was in an interview you did or a paper you read that really stuck out for you as as a big part of the year you know, it made it's made it it made its mark for you.   08:58 Oh, I'm going to focus just on the PT community. And I want to emphasize with community I see our community at really, we've always butted heads there's always things that we butted heads on. But I'll just give the instance that really made me go whoa, I was in a room with a bunch of intelligent wonderful human beings and discussing something I said a term that I thought was really common especially because in the musical theatre industry. We are fighting for dei diversity, equity inclusion all the time. Like if this is a topic of conversation all the time. It is a huge thing in regards to casting what is visually out there the most at like the highest level and, and bipoc the phrase bipoc was unrecognized by a good portion of physical therapists in this room and I was disappointed Did I was it said so much it doesn't. It's not saying that a person is evil for not knowing no. And that is not my point. But it is a problem that it's not being discussed to the level where these common extremely common thing phrases are not just known. That just says a lot to me, because it's in regards to people getting in the door access and being reached, in lesser, lesser affluent areas, that to me, it shows that it's not being discussed, it's not being addressed. If it was, then bipoc would be, and this is just one instance. But I thought that was very eye opening. Because it's just like saying, I'm going to eat today, someone saying, I'm not going what you're not eating, I don't know. And that was a bad example. But just something that is or you wake up you breathe, that is how known the phrase bipoc. Same thing with LGBTQIA. Plus, in my community, like, for me to go into another room and for things to need to be defined. I know we all have different worlds. But I think as physical therapists, there, there's a disconnect, unfortunately, depending on wherever we are from, and we need to fix that. Because I can't live everywhere. I can't treat everyone in the world, I can't treat all the performers in the world, I don't want to I like having my niche practice and treating select individuals, and boom, my people do very well. And if it gets to a point that it starts to grow, I'm going to be passing them along because I don't want I don't want that I don't want it to be huge like that. And with that in mind, I need more people who know and therefore are our allies. To me, it's a lack of ally ship, of just not knowing the basic language. And I and I apologize to anyone who's listening on my intention is not to sound like a white savior at all. It's not. But with my limited knowledge at this point, I'm already seeing something that is really, really lacking amongst each other and we need to fix it. I don't know if it's books or I don't know, I don't I don't know the answer to that. But I'm just addressing that was that was the biggest standout thing for me this year.   12:27 And it for those of you who maybe are not familiar with the American Physical Therapy Association, they have what's called House of Delegates. So they had a meeting in September of this year during the APTA centennial celebration. And in that they did pass a resolution that the APTA would be an anti racist organization. Now, were you in the room when that passed? Jenna?   12:54 No, I was not in the room, I was actually there at the House of Delegates a bit discouraged this year, I know. i The fact that they were able to figure out any manner to put it on is is a feat to be had after 2020 20. However, the in person when you go and if you are not a delegate, which I was not this year, you can usually sit in the room, and just be in the back and listen, because the because of the space that they got in the way it was set up, there were chairs in the back of the room, but there weren't that many and it filled up. So they already preemptively set up another room where you could watch what was happening on a TV, which did not sit well with me. Because I could have stayed home instead of flying in for that. So I was definitely not in the room. I definitely was less present this year. Because of that I was I was bitter, I was bitter. I was bitter. I felt like I I already know you it's through elected and know who you know, to become a delegate, but I really felt disrespected and unimportant. Being in a separate room, watching from a TV rather than actually getting to be in the room because there are ways that they hold the meeting where you can stand up to say a point of order to speak on some points from the from the back of the room. And I just wasn't even going to wait to see how they figured that out. I just felt like not a not an important voice. So I wasn't present for that. But I do know about that. I think it's wonderful to get that on the docket. But the same thing when we voted in dei unanimously. How?   14:41 What comes next? You mean? Yeah, well, yeah.   14:45 What is the game plan? Because for me, I can say a sentence like that. But then what are the actual actions and that's where it's like, is that going to happen? Two years down the road three years. What are we at what are we actually doing? What are the measuring points and take action? and not meetings on it, not being hesitant on making mistakes. Let's make mistakes. Let's just go for it. That's the only way we're gonna learn. There's no such thing as a graceful change, no matter how hard you try,   15:11 right? Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think like you said, what comes next is? Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see what are the action steps they're going to take in order to create that and, and live up to the, the words of being an anti racist organization? Because it was passed overwhelmingly.   15:32 Right? And then I'm sure they applauded for it, you know, like, this is great. But to me, I think it's, I it's just like, okay, you know, like, what, but now what? Because from DJI and the I heard that they're trying in the battle in this behind the scenes, trying to move forward, but I have not seen action there. And maybe I'm missing something, you know, feel free to call me out Call me whatever. Like, I'm, I would love to be wrong.   16:07 Yeah, these big organizations are slow ships to steer. That's not any excuse whatsoever. But I understand there's a lot of layers that one has to go through to make things happen. As you know, you've been volunteering for the APTA for a long time. So you understand that, but I think a lot of people who don't don't, so that's why I just wanted to kind of bring that up and saying, like, yeah, it takes it takes a long effing time to get stuff done, you know?   16:33 Yeah. And I mean, you can hear it, I'm frustrated by I'm not, I'm not happy about it. And but it's, it's because of my friends, the conversations I have, and I, I'm, I'm lucky, I'm a sis white, stereotypical female. So like, the way the world has been made, and the way it caters to humans. It fits me, but it doesn't fit everyone and I'd like I can't imagine what it would be like to just be left out of a lot of things in everyday life. I think that's horrible.   17:05 Yeah, agreed. What else? What else do you think was a big something that you saw within the profession? Or even trends in health and fitness that might have really changed over this past year? For better or for worse? I can think of one I think and this is just my opinion that the the communication via social media has gotten a little too aggressive. Is that a nice way of saying it? Like I don't understand it, I don't get it. I took like a little break because I was Oh, can't say I was bullied because I feel like bullying. It's that sort of like you know someone is having like a sustained go at you. So I don't know   18:01 it's bullying is bullying. Yeah, bullying is bullying. That's the thing is that we have a lot of bullying that happens but then they gaslight you about their bullying. It's like Whoa, it's next. It's almost like a strategy. Like they're playing a game of Monopoly, and they have down how to win. Like, yeah, people barely there is a lot of bullying.   18:20 Yeah, a lot of bullying. A lot of threatening, like, I get like threatening DMS or people threatening me, you know, on their Instagram stories or whatever. For I can't imagine I look back at that interactions. And I'm like, I don't get it.   18:38 Yeah, I don't get it. Yeah.   18:41 So I and my first reaction was to like, when people will do this and be so aggressive as to send like a Taylor Swift GIF. Of her song, you need to calm down. And then I have to take a step back and be like, that's not gonna help the situation any. Right, right. Right. Don't do it. I just sort of back off. But I think because of that, bullying or threatening behavior, I've   19:05 really like I'll say it bullying continue. I've,   19:09 I've just like, for the past couple of months, I've really taken a backseat to any kind of social media just to like, give myself like a mental health break, you know, like meeting I don't comment on things. I might post some things here and there, but I don't really make any comments, unless it's to. And that's mainly and I'm going to say this because from what I can tell it's true, is it happens to be men in the profession who are a little more aggressive than the women, like women can seem to have a bit of a nicer conversation around whether it's a question or, you know, something, but when a lot of the men it's just become so like ego driven, that there's no resolution, and it's just mean. Mm hmm. And so I was like I need to take a break. So I saw a lot more of that this year. I don't know if it's because of lockdowns and because of a heightened sense of what's the word? Stress to begin with? And then yeah, or something else on top of it? I don't know. But I, I saw that this year, definitely for the worse, because I just think, gosh, if people outside the profession are looking in and watching these exchanges, what are they thinking?   20:28 Yeah, yeah, I've definitely seen it in sis males specifically.   20:33 Yeah, yeah.   20:34 I'm not it honestly. doesn't it's not a specific color of skin. But specifically sis males.   20:43 Yeah, I would I would agree with that. Yeah.   20:46 I have. I have experienced a little not not to the level, but I've definitely experienced that. And it's for 2021. And it's not okay. No, it's not okay. However, I ever look at it as a blessing. And this is where I get I love looking at it like this. Yes, please, please, thank you. Thank you for identifying that you have no space in my room, my shelf my space at all. I will not take advice from you in the future. And I will not heed any, any value to what you have to say, because of your willingness to chop me down. Thank you for identifying yourself. I'm now in the debate of blocking you from my mental health. And that's it. And that includes in person. That's it. That's it. And I really don't look as blocking as like, wow, for me, I'm going like, No, I don't want to know you. I don't want to know you. And my life is so much better because of it when I was at the PPS conference, because of just going No to the to the people I don't want to know and just saying like, just straight up like I like I don't need you, I don't need you. I want to be a service to people who need physical therapy period. So people are going to just, you know, find ways of you know, and spend their time writing some angry thing. Have that that's on them that's on them. Like I'm like, like, and if it and honestly I will likely block you.   22:18 I love that I love like you're you're it's not just that you're blocking the person. You're blocking the energy blocking the energy they're bringing into you and draining you down. So then you're not at your best well, or with your friends or loved ones patients, even with yourself. Yeah, you know, if you have to ruminate on these people. I love that. Yeah, it's not it's not just blocking you from social media, it's blocking the energy that you the the bad vibes, if you will, that you're Brown. And that affects you that affects your mental health that affects you emotionally. And it can carry through to a lot of other parts of your life and who needs that? Yeah,   22:59 and, and for anybody who's trying to saying like, I can a bully did it or like it. Okay, let's, let's look at it this way, when you're messaging an individual something, first of all, we all know this. When you write in text, everybody's going to interpret it with different tone. So as soon as you write in text, we all know this, and we're taking advantage of that fact. So that way, you can later go, oh, I said it in a nice tone, Bs when you're typing it, it can be in whatever freakin tone and you know what you're doing. Also, when you're not talking to a person, the only time you show up is to say something negative. Yeah, that's you're not your voice is not important. And you know, your voice isn't important.   23:39 It's so true. What I've actually seen is a lot of these, these kinds of people, they're not getting the attention they used to get. Mm hmm. Do you know cuz I think more people are of the mindset of like, I don't need this anymore. Like this was maybe this was funny. Maybe this was cute a couple years ago. Ah, not anymore.   24:01 And also I love I don't like having down moments, but we all have our down moments in our career and in our life. But I what I do love about the down moments in the career in life, the people who are around at that time, those are your friends, those are the people you want to know. So I love my moments in the PT world. When I'm in a down moment because the people who want to talk to me then those are the people I want to know. Whereas when I'm you know, can candidate for the private practice section, you know, which is awesome. And then people want to actually talk to me then. Oh, wait, I'm gonna wait and see when you know, I'm not that. Am I still someone you want to speak to? That is those are the people I want to invest time in. Those are the people I want to invest time in. I want to see you you do well and vice versa. I want to be able to get to know you as a human more and more and more. I just want the children Relationships, it doesn't mean I'm going to have time or you know, we're gonna have time to talk every day. But I want those true relationships. So for me, those downtimes, when I might not look the most graceful, I might be messing up or maybe not messing up. Maybe I'm actually making a change here speaking on something or getting people to think differently ever thought of that, you know? Awesome. Like, are you gonna be here to chop me down? Or just be here to have a conversation and having a conversation? Set up a phone call? If you really care? Like if you really could you don't? People don't care that Oh, reaching out, they don't care about you cannot be when they're reaching out to give feedback. Let's have a comfort. No, they just want to get into an attack mode. No, we No, no, don't try to decorate it. We know that's what's happening. And yeah, that were to town. There's enough going on.   25:52 Yeah, there's enough going on. And you know, this conversation really made me reflect on the past year, and I think what's been a good thing has been the deepening of good relationships. So like, nobody has time for that other, like bad stuff anymore. Like there's enough bad stuff happening. I don't have time for that. But what you do have time for is the relationships that are two sided, you know, a nice bilateral relationship that you're willing to invest in, and allow that relationship to come deeper and grow. And I feel like, you know, and like, you don't have to be friends with 1000 people, you know, you can be friends with a handful you can be friends with one person. And if that person, it's it's real and deep and meaningful, then isn't that wonderful? And I think years ago, I used to think, oh, the more   26:46 people you know, the better. Me too. Me too.   26:49 And now I think because of the upheaval of the last couple of years now, I'm really finding like, you know, I need like couple of good people that I can count on to have my back to, like you said, lift you up when you need to, and maybe to like, give you the honest truth when you need it as well. Right? Exactly. So I've been really, really happy that over the past year, I've made some really nice deeper connections with people than the physical therapy World Sports Medicine world. And I'm really, really happy about that. So I think that's been a real positive for me,   27:26 I totally agree with you, I mean, that our relationship is naturally growing over time, which I appreciate and, and I really do I completely on the same page completely on the same page. And and for me, when I go to conferences, like I'm really isolating more and more, who are the two are the people that like I must spend time with? And and then if other people want to join sure, you know, absolutely. But I I'm not overwhelming myself, oh, I need to be friends with that. No, I don't need to. And you know what, like, that became very apparent when I seen people speak, even at PPS, where the goodness, they were showing slideshows with their friends, and it was like, literally all people who are elected in the higher positions are all best friends with each other. It is it's true, you can't deny it. If you're up there. If you're one of those people. It's true. And you know what, I look at it like this, my friends may go up there to that, mate. That's not why I'm friends with you, though, you know, in friendship through because I like you as a person. So I'm gonna let that lay and not even explain and go into more depth and let people interpret that how they want and the right people will stay in   28:44 my life. Exactly. So what are they? What are they? Let's, let's sort of wrap this up on a positive note. What are their positive things came to you this year, whether it be professionally, personally,   28:59 oh, I think being more comfortable in my skin at conferences. So I had the I mean, absolute honor. Like I was really overwhelmed with happiness at the private practice conference this year. It was just so cool to be nominated. And I felt so much more comfortable in my own skin going up there. I you know, there there are a couple naysayers not realizing there'll be naysayers that, you know that I had to deal with but going up and it was a small moment. But we had you have this rehearsal. I don't know if it's done the same way. For the nominees where they go, you practice when your name is called going behind the podium and then walking down the stairs so you know what to do when you're asked to go out there and give your speech. And I went out there and I did a great vine to my spot. And I mean, I was so happy I did that because I was feeling it and that's what I would do. I did a great fine. And I know that silly, nobody else paid attention to me honestly probably knew that I was doing it. And some were probably like, Oh, but I didn't care. I was like I am on this freakin stage right now, this is the coolest thing. And to be at that place of like more self acceptance, because I know I don't have the stereotypical personality and energy, you know, that that is normally accepted amongst the vast community. So to be more me in that moment, I felt very proud. I felt very proud of myself. And that was really cool. I'm really, really happy about that. And then I like Dan, you know, sat down and ate some more bacon, it was great.   30:46 Well, and you know, being comfortable in your own skin that then comes across to the people who are in front of you. So when the speech actually came about, I'm sure people picked up on that picked up on the fact that you're now more comfortable in your skin that you're more comfortable, perhaps as a physical therapist, and because you found you're not that you've, you've already had this niche, but you sort of found your niche. You know, what, you what you're in the physical therapy world to do. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.   31:19 Absolutely. Absolutely. And I got a little bit picked on for being too perfect with my speech and everything. And I was like, I you know, in reflection on that, I was like, they just haven't fully accepted my energy. That's okay. Don't get there. Okay. That's it. Don't get there. I'm like, I'm a performer. So it's gonna happen. You know, do you want to join a British company dialect? That's,   31:47 that's a weird comment. That's a weird criticism. Yeah, but yeah, you know,   31:53 but I felt I felt I felt like I had to reflect to go No, I actually felt really good, because I've definitely put it on before. No, I practiced it to be to deliver it. Me as me. And now it's so fun. So fun. Oh, my God. Yeah, I was just that that was a big, positive. Awesome, awesome feeling. I work with so many people who are in the PT industry, who want to be dance physical therapist or physical therapist assistants and imposter syndrome is super real. And so I like that I'm practicing what I preach and self love. And and it's awesome. How are you doing all that this year?   32:36 I'm better. I mean, imposter syndrome, I think, for me is always there, like always kind of underlying the surface, if you will. But I think that's pretty normal. You know, the more and more I listen, or I read about, like, these famous people who are up on stages and in movies, and you know, people who think oh, they have no, they must be like, amazing. And no, they it's the same thing. So I think for me, accepting that it's normal has actually helped decrease it a little bit. Instead of feeling like, oh, boy, everyone else here is like, amazing. And I'm like the loser trying to keep up. And then I think, no, that's pretty normal, because I think everyone else feels that way as well. Yes. And then once once I was able to accept that it makes going up on stage, like, I don't get as nervous as I used to, and it's been. It's been much, much better for me even speaking. Like I was joking, I could say I now I shared the stage with FLOTUS, because at the future physical therapy summit, I spoke for literally a minute and 45 seconds as a spokesperson for the brand Waterpik. So Waterpik has these wonderful showerheads. And they sponsored the future physical therapy Summit in Washington, DC back in September. And so the sponsors got to go up and say a little something. So you have literally less than two minutes, and I had to get all their talking points in. But I also like, decided to make it funny. So I was just saying things off the cuff. And afterwards, everyone's like, that was a great bit. I love that bit about your parents. I'm like, I didn't think of it as a bit. But okay. But then the good news was afterwards, people came up to the table, the Waterpik table, you know, in the, in the hall area, and like the one guy was like, I wasn't gonna come up, but then after that talk, I had to come up and see what you guys are all about. I needed to find out what you were doing and hey, can you do this? And so, for me, I felt as nervous as I was to go up and speak be mainly because it wasn't about me, it was about Waterpik. So I wanted to do them proud, you know, and afterwards, they got so much great feedback and possible partnerships selling through clinics with 700 locations? And can we do a study with Waterpik? On wound care? Can we do a study with Waterpik on people living with CRPS and using these, like, and that's exactly what they were looking for. So that made me feel like much better and gave me a little bit more confidence. And it was also fun to be able to do such things kind of off the cuff. You know,   35:25 that's so cool. Yeah, I love that. You should definitely be proud. That's so cool.   35:29 So that was really fun. And then the next speaker, it was it. The next speaker a two speakers after me was the First Lady of the United States Dr. Joe Biden. So yeah, there you go. No big deal. No big deal. Yeah. FLOTUS. So that was really fun. And was that yeah, for me, I think that was a big highlight of of the year for me, I guess professionally, which was really cool. is cool. That is so cool. It was it was cool. Anything else that for you? Did we miss anything that you wanted to get in?   36:02 Yes. For the Yes, yes. Yes. Okay. I now live in Pittsburgh and and was visiting New York had a great time. I got to see Karen at one of my favorite salad places, although I didn't get my normal favorite salad, which now I'm in regret until I go back again, to get my favorite salad from Sweet greens. It's the kale salad. It's so good. Caesar kale salad. I highly recommend it if you're going and you want to save some money because I love to be cheap in New York. Okay. said that. Now I'm not sponsored by sweet green. I just love sweet green. Okay,   36:31 I know we're dropping. We're dropping a lot of like,   36:33 I know. Like suede. And also get Levine's cookies. Okay, yeah. When you go, I never have gone to the tourist areas. I avoid it. But I spent a lot of time in Times Square because I was going to see Broadway shows. And it's also one of the few Disney Stores that still is open. So I had to go in there. I got a wreath I didn't need but I needed you know, and Okay. Rockefeller Center. So I go there to meet Stephanie. Why rock as you and I didn't have enough time with your Stephanie. But while we were waiting, there's a whole show of lights. A GG know that you knew this that like it's with music and everything like Disney. I had no idea. What's the store that darkness said yes Avenue, Saks Fifth Avenue. And it's like castle and lighting. It was I was just joking. If you don't know, I love Disney. I love Disney so much. And this was a Disney experience. And I just we weren't waiting in the cold. I'm like, all bitter. You know, I just I'm not happy in the cold. So I'm like, and then the light show on Japan?   37:45 Yeah, it's spectacular. It was   37:47 so great. I had no idea and it goes up like every few minutes. It's quite regular. So if you like oh, we miss it. You're fine. Just wait a few minutes. It'll start again. i Oh, go see it. Go see it. Don't stand in Time Square for New Year's. But go see that that was such a wonderful, positive, beautiful moment. And, and just great. It was great. Also, there are a lot of great photographers in New York. So if you're visiting New York, and you want to get stuff for social media, that is the spot to get it. There are so many talented photographers you can get reasonable prices and and build your social media real fast. All right, that's it.   38:26 Perfect. Well, before we wrap up the year, where can people find you if they want more information about you in any of your programs? And also let us know what you have coming up in 2022?   38:38 Okay, well, most immediately, you're going to find me at Disney Land in February this year in 2022. Because I'm going to be there my birthday. If you go there on the 16th of February. Just let me know. And we'll like meet up with you. But no, I'm going to be eating junk food all day. So if you're expecting me to be held a healthy influence, I will not be alright. For me, I'm going to be continuing with my private practice, working with performers and continuing with helping people live their lives as dance PTS helping you on the business and treatment side with my dance PT program. But most importantly, because I'm always like I'm a performer and physical therapist. I'm doing all this work right now. I am getting back into performing which I'm really happy about so I'll be submitting a lot more which I'm just super stoked. I feel like all my work stuff is is being is much more easier to handle now I've got it down. And the systems are in place if you will get to audition more than I'll be a movie star just like that because it's so easy. It'll be great, but I'm really excited about that. What about you Karen?   39:55 Oh, that's exciting. Gosh, I'm not gonna be a movie star. Anything So what do I have coming up? Let's see, um, this past year I finished the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business program, highly recommend anyone to apply to because it's really amazing. How many more plugs can we drop in this episode? And so I'm going to this year, I'm looking to hire another PT for my practice, right? Mm hmm. Which is very fun. Exactly, it grows, but   40:31 you're like, I'm not going to take all the patients. It's gross,   40:34 but time to bring on someone else. Right. And then continuing to work with just a couple of people. With business coaching, I like take four people at a time for me that I get it handle, it's good enough for me, I'm happy to do it. So that will open back up again. Maybe end of January of 2022. Because like you said, when you know what you can handle and you know that you can help the people who want to be helped, then it becomes so much easier. So now I feel like I've got this under control. I know how to split up my time and manage my time. And so I'm really looking forward to that in 2022 and we'll see what happens.   41:24 I love that. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, are so cool. I love what you do.   41:30 Where can people find you? Oh,   41:33 yeah, so I have the dance physical therapists Facebook group. So that's one specifically for PT so you will find me in their active conversations once talking about performing arts research all that stuff. You can find me at CSM Oh yeah, social media, dance physical therapists on Instagram. I am also musical theater doc on there. But I really associate people more regarding musical theater, not other pts. So dance physical therapist, is that and then on Facebook, Jenna cantor. And yeah, pretty much Jenna Cantor from Twitter and Jenna cantor. Yeah, your website. Jenna cancer, PT, calm.   42:18 Perfect. Perfect. Excellent. Well, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on and wrapping up 2022. And for all of your help and friendship throughout the year. I really appreciate it. And appreciate so   42:31 much. I have to just say that joke that keeps coming to my head every time you keep saying wrapping up. I feel like I should be wrapping a present. I just it's a stupid joke. But I just need to put that in there. Thank you. I said it.   42:43 Tis the season when in Rome, right? Yes. All right. Well, thank you again, so much. And everyone. Thank you so much. On behalf of myself and Jenna, for listening to the podcast all year and for supporting it. And you know if anyone has any suggestions on anyone they'd like either one of us to interview please let us know. You can find us on social media. I'm on Twitter at Karen Litzy. NYC and Instagram at Karen Litzy. You can email me Karen at Karen Litzy. Calm it couldn't be any easier. Or you can find me at Karen Litzy calm. We're super easy over here. So let us let us know if there's any topics or people that you're like man, I really want to hear from this person. We'll be more than happy to see if we can get it done. So thanks again. Everyone have a very, very happy new year and a healthy 2022 And of course stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Software Social
It's Been a Year

Software Social

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 28, 2021 41:44


Every doctor is concerned about your vital signs, but a good doctor cares about your overall health. Your website deserves the same care, and Hey Check It is here to help- Hey Check It is a website performance monitoring and optimization tool- Goes beyond just core web vitals to give you a full picture on how to optimize your website to give your users an optimal, happy experience- Includes AI-generated SEO data, accessibility scanning and site speed checks with suggestions on how to optimize, spelling and grammar checking, custom sitemaps, and a number of various tools to help youStart a free trial today at heycheckit.comAUTOMATED TRANSCRIPTColleen Schnettler  0:02  Hey, Colleen, hey, Michelle. Good morning.Michele Hansen  0:43  It's been a year. Oh,Colleen Schnettler  0:45  it has been a year. Yes.Michele Hansen  0:48  2020. Part Two. Okay. 2021. Part two is coming to a closeColleen Schnettler  0:56  eye. That is hard to believe, isn't it?Michele Hansen  0:59  Yeah. And so I thought maybe this would be a good time to reflect on the year that has been and think about the year to come.Colleen Schnettler  1:13  I love this idea. Wow, that's so cool that we've been doing the podcast long enough that we can have a yearly reflection. We've been doing it more than a year. I know as to how a year and a half. I love it.Michele Hansen  1:26  No. So okay, so let's start out with simple file upload. And I feel like it's been a while since we've like actually talked about simple file upload. So you know, as, again, if this was a professionally edited, produced podcast, this is where the heart noises would be. Coleen, can you take us back to where you were in January of 2021. With your business,Colleen Schnettler  1:55  so in January of 2021.So in January of 2021, simple file upload was in alpha, I believe in the Heroku add on store. And so that means it was not yet available for sale. You have to get 100 users, maybe it's beta, you have to get 100 users of your product in the app store before you're allowed to list it for sale. I've my years Right, right. Yeah, yeah, no, that was okay. It was that was 2020 2020. I launched it. Yep. It was JanuaryMichele Hansen  2:35  of 2020. That it was in beta.Colleen Schnettler  2:38  Right. It December, January, it was in beta. Right? Yeah, because I have the date as of February 4 2021, I was able to make it available for sale. So the product has been available for sale since February of 2021. Wow. And this is December. And since that time, it has grown to I'm not 1200 MRR, which is very exciting. And it has been a I mean, this year has been a wild ride professionally if I look back on it, because launch simple file upload. Learned a lot while doing that. And almost even bigger than that in August of 2021. I quit my job to join the Hammerstone team. And you tookMichele Hansen  3:25  a job and then you quite registered like because you were clear Soltan starting out the year. Okay, the next couple years like,Colleen Schnettler  3:33  yeah, I basically went on this roller coaster up, I'd been consulting for years, then one of the companies I consulted for for years, convinced me to come on full time with them. And I had every intention of that being like a long term gig. It's a wonderful company. And then I think I announced on Twitter or on the podcast that I took a job and I got inundated with offers, which was pretty cool. And good to know if you're job hunting, you should probably hunt before you just take one. But then a couple months later, I had this really unique opportunity to join Hammerstone Hammerstone stone is the company co founded with my buddies, Aaron and Shawn that's building the Query Builder component and get paid to build that out and keep the IP so I had to quit the full time job in order to do Hammerstone full time and right now I'm doing Hammerstone full time paid. Yeah, so that's what that's what's going on.Michele Hansen  4:40  I mean, that's a such a journey for you to go from consulting. And then like this sort of like how much consulting do I need to do like and there's kind of period of time where you're trying to go kind of full time or, like more time on simple file upload. Then kind of Just life necessitated taking a job.Colleen Schnettler  5:05  Yeah, I think that's accurate. And I think a lot of people who are trying to build their own businesses can appreciate this. Like, I am super, super excited for those people that can go all in on their business. But I have a lot of bills. And I moved. Oh, I also moved from Virginia to California this year, gradually, Geez, what a year, man. Yeah, so I think the decision thing for me was I launched simple file upload, and the consulting the thing about what I was doing with consulting as I had more than one client, so it was just this incredible overhead of context switching. And the full time job offered me the opportunity, I had negotiated a four day workweek. So it had offered me offered me the opportunity to only have the two things I was working on. And that would have worked out great. I think, if I had stayed there, that would have been, that would have been a great choice, too. But the Hammerstone opportunity just felt too exciting and too big. It's literally exactly what I want to do to turn down. And so I want to say join them in August, and I've been working full time for the client that is funding the development of the product, it actually gives me less time on simple file upload, which is a constant, again, everyone with a job and a side project can appreciate this. It's like a constant balance, trying to find the time for all the things I want to do. But if you think about Michelle, if we go back to 2020, I don't have any products, and I have so many products, like I don't even have time for the ball. Like it's amazing, right? multiple things, right? So it's been, it's been really, really, really exciting and spectacular. And one of our friends, Pete, he's written a couple books. And he uses this phrase, expanding your luck surface area. And the concept is, like, really successful guys will always say, Oh, I just got lucky. How many times have you met someone who's running a, you know, half 1,000,002 million ARR business? It's like, Oh, we got really lucky. It's like, Yeah, but luck played a part. But this concept, I really love this concept of luck, surface area. Luck played apart, but you did all the things to position yourself to take advantage of the opportunity when it presented itself. Yeah. And so all these things we do honestly, like the podcast and launching products, and speaking at conferences, all of those things, I think, really increase the luck surface area. And so I feel incredibly lucky. But also, I also took a lot of steps to put myself in the position Hammerstone, I think is going to be the thing, Michelle, like, it's we feel the poll. I mean, it is exciting. So, you know, we feel the poll,Michele Hansen  7:53  that's interesting, like so, I mean, being on something that's like moving and people are like customers are really excited about it. I guess how do you like contrast that with the response that you get from simple file upload? Like, does that feel like a contrast?Colleen Schnettler  8:11  Oh, yeah. And I think simple file upload meets a very pressing need people have on Heroku. But outside of that, it feels like pushing, right? Like it feels like and this is this is part of growing a business like I'm not, you know, it is what it is. But it feels like, there's a lot of competitors out there. And I have to convince people to go with me, small solo business vers go with, you know, Cloudflare images, or, you know, file stack or some huge company that has servers or they're just at their disposal. And so it feels like a lot of hustle. And I don't I mean, it's a great all of it is a great learning experience. But Hammerstone I mean, people are basically asking us, they are asking to pay us for this thing that is not even done. Like, yeah,Michele Hansen  9:01  like banging down the door. I mean, there have product market fit there. But it's like, it's like very clear that like it's going to happen.Colleen Schnettler  9:11  I mean, our Early Access, based on a couple tweets my co founder sent out, we have like 200 people on an early access list. Based on we don't even have a landing page for this thing. Like it's amazing. It's really exciting. So it's been really I think Justin Jackson has this great article, I think it was this week, he sent it out, although I don't know if everyone got it this week, but it was basically about like, your market is going to determine your success. Like you can have one person who's hustling. It's not necessarily it's not just how hard you work, like you can work really hard. But it's also your market is going to determine your success. And so I don't know it just feels like so many exciting things have happened to me this year is what I'm trying to say So and I think like the Hammerstone thing wouldn't have happened if simple file upload hadn't happened. Right? So these things compound when you think about like, getting you're putting yourself out there and and, you know, the luck going back to the whole luck surface area thing.Michele Hansen  10:17  Yeah, I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. And like the whole thing about market like, I feel like that's that's something that that Justin hits on a lot and and valuably, so because, you know, there's a quote from a famous investor that I forget who it is. But it's, you know, if maybe it's Paul Graham, when a you know, a good product meets a bad market market wins when a good team meets a bad market market wins when a bad product meets a good market market wins. And I mean, you guys have like, you know, wind is in your sails, and you are just flying along.Colleen Schnettler  10:59  Yeah, it's, it's pretty exciting. And just to clarify, I am still, I still love working on simple file upload, simple file upload is so much fun for me, because there's such a tight feedback loop. Hammerstone is still in this phase, at least the stuff I'm working on where it's big, and it's it's kind of, it's not, it's not done, right. So it kind of feels like a slog, because it's just kind of brute force and getting the work done. Simple file upload is a joy, because every time a customer emails me a question, like I can iterate and improve it. And so I still I didn't mean to I'm not sunsetting it or anything, like I'm still way into it. And I still feel like there's a way to do both right now. Yeah, I just, it's fun, like people are engaging more, I think, if you go back to founders comp, which was in October, my I was I came out of that really excited. And my goal for simple file upload was to really push to see if I could grow it a little bit. And I had hoped to get to 1500 by the end of the year, and I'm at 1200. So that's fine, right? Like it is what it is. But I think a lot more people are engaging with me than in the beginning. Remember the beginning, I couldn't get anyone to talk to me. Mm hmm. I feel like a lot more people are talking to me now. And so I have all kinds of ideas with what I want to do with it. And so yeah, I'm just over overflowing with ideas right now. So it's cool. I think it'sMichele Hansen  12:29  valuable as entrepreneurs to also have like a, like a safe little sandbox to play in to experiment where, you know, if, if you want to try something, you can, there's nobody telling you, you can't there's nobody's job relying on you, no, you're not doing it, of course, you have customers and you're responsible to them. So you can't, you know, just decide to take down your infrastructure for no reason. But like, if you want to cut the prices, 50% like, you can do that, if you want to raise him 50% You can also do that, like and you can just kind of, like learn as an entrepreneur. I mean, that's how I, I kind of loved having a full time job and a side project for a period of time because it was it was just like my safe little playground. And I think it was really, really valuable to have it as just a side project and not intending to go full time on it, because it just took that pressure off it and it made it a joy to just learn how to run a business without that fear of, you know, this has to pay for our mortgage, and like all of that kind of stuff going into that which just adds a lot of pressure when you're already when you're learning a new skill and outside your comfort zone. Like having financial pressure on top of that is really for a lot of people not very helpful mentally, like it can drive you but it's it's it's a lot of pressure.Colleen Schnettler  14:00  Yeah, I think that's a good way to describe it for me like it's a nice side income right now. And I am learning I mean that is what's so cool is tight feedback loop and I'm learning so much how to talk to customers, I made this change to my onboarding email which seems to have made a huge difference. So stop me if I told you this but my onboarding email used to be asking questions and now it's so it used to be can you tell me why you're using simple file upload and I changed it to be quick tips to help you get started fast or something like that. And that seems to really have made a difference so all these little things I'm learning that I can apply elsewhere have been really fun like I'm really enjoying it.Michele Hansen  14:44  So we talked a little bit about at founder summit of like whether you sell the business or not. We didn't I feel like that conversation was that that was a pretty strong no that you that you really enjoy it as at you know, as this little playground So I'm curious, like, as you think about this coming year, and you know, bearing in mind that humans are famously bad at predictions, and this year had so many twists and turns that you did not expect going into the year.Colleen Schnettler  15:18  Oh my gosh, right here. IMichele Hansen  15:19  mean, not not like you set a goal or almost like, like, do you have like an intention that you would want to set for the year of like? Like, what do you mean, it's a big question, but like, what do you want out of?Colleen Schnettler  15:34  out of it? Yeah, that's a fair.Michele Hansen  15:37  Sorry, is, you know, your is your founder journey? Like, is that taking you more towards Hammerstone? Is that in like, less simple file upload? And I don't I I'm starting to answer my own question. So like, just,Colleen Schnettler  15:58  yeah, I understand. So yeah, right. The end of the year, let's look forward, oh, this will be fun, because then we can look at the end of next year and be like, Oh, how well did we align? Okay, so we're going into what? 2022? That's crazy. Okay. So my vision for 2022 would be, I am getting paid by the client to develop this, this Hammerstone product, and we agreed that I'd go until August, I'm sure that can go plus or minus either side, they're pretty flexible. So my vision for 2022 would be early 2022. We're going to start launching hammers stone in Laravel. We're gonna see what the responses there and kind of see what the support burden is. And I will finish out the rails component. While I do that, I still want to put time and effort into simple file upload. I want to get it to I just want to see what does it take to grow it to 2k? Like, can I get to 2k? What does that even look like? What I do? I'm not I mean, I think I want to see you know, what it's capable of? And yeah, if someone wants to give me $200,000 for it, I'll sell it today. But I think just FYI, I'm open to that. But I think realistic or open first. I think realistically, I have a product now I did the first thing is so many people at founder Summit. Okay, I don't know if you remember this at founder Summit, we were on the bus to go to the balloon. And one of the gentlemen on the bus named Matt was talking about how he's in the market to buy a SAS and someone was trying to sell him their SAS and they kept telling him it had really low MRR, like maybe 500 bucks. And they kept telling him, oh, there's all these opportunities to grow it like, you know, you can grow it this way. And he was like, Look, if that but but it had been like this way for like four or five years. And it just been sitting at two to 500 MRR and he said something that has stuck with me. And he said, Okay, if they can really, if there's really opportunity to grow it, why haven't they done it in the five years they've had this thing? And he said it in a way that made me think, Oh, you can just you can do things to grow your SAS like, it won't. I don't know it, it was this point that like, I have control to some degree over whether this thing grows or not. And so I want to put in the work to see I mean, maybe I'll I'll timebox that maybe I'll put in the work until I think in February, it will be a good review point because it'll be a year old. If I put in the work, what happens? Can I grow this? Can I learn how to use Google Analytics and which I don't still don't know how to use? Um, can I learn how to write better copy? Can I learn how to make landing pages that appeal to my users, like, there's so much marketing, I mean, simple file upload is a it's kind of like a playground where I can learn all this marketing stuff. And that'll help me in all products. But I think my goal would be, you know, Hammerstone is going to launch in the in the spring. And then I should be done in the summer. And then we'll be doing the rails launch and rails onboarding. So I think the preponderance of my time will be on Hammerstone. But I don't know about simple file upload. I don't know if I'll sell it. I don't know if I'll continue to grow it. But I'm not going to grow. I'm not going to sell it before February, so reevaluate in February. So I have no idea what it looks like. Yeah, but I think I think the idea would be to focus more on Hammerstone and grow Hammerstone to support me, so I don't have to consult anymore. That would be pretty sweet.Michele Hansen  19:32  I think it's also worth like reminding that when you launch simple file upload, you wanted to have a product. Oh, yeah. You also like you also did not want to be a solo founder like you have always wanted to be part of a team and I think that's something that drove you to take that job was being part of a team and why you had considered previous job offers.Colleen Schnettler  19:56  Yes, I was lonely. Absolutely. Yeah, very social person. And so I was absolutely lonely.Michele Hansen  20:03  Yeah. And so I think it would make sense if like, you know, Hammerstone becomes, you know, the the focus and the thing that you really want to go for but and simple file upload is just this, you know, cool thing you have on the side. And when you have time you learn, you know, new marketing skills to make it grow a little bit, but like, it doesn't like, it doesn't have to be the thing.Colleen Schnettler  20:28  Oh, yeah, I don't I don't know, with my current time and energies. I don't think it will be. I mean, I don't see this thing getting to 10 km RR in the next year, right. Like, I just don't I don't think that's the thing I think camera showed is going to be the thing. And this will be the side project that, you know, I can continue to dabble in, or I can sell or whatever. But you're right. I just wanted to have a product. I mean, if you look back at this year, it's amazing how far I've come. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's a my self. Oh, totally. I totally am. I'm really happy with with the growth. And the stuff that I did this year for sure. So let's talk about your year in review.Michele Hansen  21:15  Gosh, okay. January 2021. Um, I mean, I guess the point to start, there is really in February, when I started writing the newsletter book, whatever I calledColleen Schnettler  21:29  February, so good month for us.Michele Hansen  21:33  Yeah, right, we have a lot like, we should go back and listen to those episodes. They're probablyColleen Schnettler  21:37  I know, we totally should.Michele Hansen  21:41  So, so yeah, so I started writing the book, as a newsletter, I didn't really know what was gonna go. totally consumed my spring launched it in July. It's crazy. And like, I'd say, there was like, you know, in the beginning, it was like, you know, 9010, like, mostly geocode do and then just a little bit of book and then towards, like, May in June, it was like 7525. And then I feel like August to October was like, almost 5050. But I think as we kind of close out on the year, and all that I'm really realizing that, you know, so like, I wrote a book, but I don't want to be a writer. I am a software entrepreneur who happened to write a book, and not a software entrepreneur who became a writer. And I think that's an important difference. And I feel like I've been struggling with this a lot of like, should I do more books stuff? Like, should I do like paid workshops and courses? And, like, should I go, you know, like, give workshops at companies? And like, Should I do a mini book that's like the how to talk to people talk things should I do podcast should I do like, or like, you know, have a podcast for the book, like showed you all this other stuff. And I could, but I just, I don't want to, and I really miss, like, my company. Like, I really miss I like, you know, working on JUCO do stuff and just find myself really missing like SEO Marketing, rather than like Info Product Marketing. I miss working synchronously with Mateus. Because I feel like so often we're kind of working in the same office, but not actually working together, because my head is elsewhere on books, stuff and whatnot. And, you know, even if there's no pressure to, like, sell more like, like, I feel like, and maybe this is a voice in my head or from other people, or I don't really know where it comes from, but it's like people like, you know, it's like, you wrote a good book that accomplish the goals, I had to teach entrepreneurs how to understand their customers, and, you know, you know, teach them that everyone has a capacity for empathy, and that they should, you know, they could have more empathy for other people and for themselves and teach them how to do that. And like get accomplished that and yet I find myself, you know, refreshing sales reports and being like, am I going to feel like I accomplished what I set out to do when I sell 500 copies or 1000 copies or 10,000 copies and and no, because the book already accomplished what I set out for it to do. It's a all in one place. I can send other founders to learn how to understand their customers and hopefully to learn more about you know, having empathy for others in themselves. I think I'll still do podcasts about the book, but I think going into To 2022 I would like to do more geocoded stuff and less book stuff.Colleen Schnettler  25:08  Okay, that sounds like a very, it sounds like something you've thought about quite a lot.Michele Hansen  25:17  Yeah, it's it's been on my mind. I've been intending to journal about it. I didn't actually journal about it.Colleen Schnettler  25:23  Oh, God.Michele Hansen  25:25  Like, I should know this. And I, I did open my journal like once. Last week, no, twice. No, I opened it twice. Okay. And then I just have I've had a lot of things I've intended to journal about. And thenColleen Schnettler  25:42  I thought about Yeah, like, in my headMichele Hansen  25:43  kind of like drafting that in my head. That's like, I don't know is, you know, I feel like I'm sort of at a crossroads of like, do I want to lean more into this, like writers stuff? And like, right? I just sat answers, just no. Adults, couldColleen Schnettler  26:02  you figure that out. I mean,Michele Hansen  26:03  like, I liked writing the book, I had so much fun. writing it as a newsletter, especially and getting feedback as I went, and then like, interviewing all the people who are reading it, like, that was awesome. Like, I love the writing process, even the really hard parts where I felt like I was doing major surgery on it every weekend, like completely rewriting it, like, but all of the, the work of being an independent writer, like, you know, and I feel like I sound like you're, you know, sort of a very typical indie hacker when I'm like, Oh, I liked you know, creating the thing, but I don't like, like, Yes, I know, I hear that, thank you. But I don't know, I don't have to sell it, like I don't, you know, it's gonna, if it's a good book, people are gonna recommend it. Like, I'll still go on podcasts, like, I'm still gonna talk about it. But that's basically the only thing I found that doesn't really drain me. Like, I feel like I died a little bit inside when I was sending those emails Black Friday week about Lady sale. Like, it's just me, like, it's not that it's not like, that's a valid marketing approach. And it works for a lot of people, but it's just, you know, we like we kind of talked a little bit about, like, founder business fit. Yes, and I've sort of been mulling over this idea about founder marketing fit, which is that, you know, we design our businesses, right, you know, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not, but fundamentally, every decision you make is a design decision in the business. And, you know, it has to be a type of business that that suits you and how you want to work and what you're good at, and, but also how you market it, that has to fit with you too. And like, for some people, you know, sending out like, sales emails, and having a cohort come in, like, whether it's for software or for a course or whatnot. Like, that's how they want to do things. And that really fits with how they like to work. For other people like me, that's like, I really like talking to people and then looking at analytics, and then writing stuff related to what people need. And then like selling that way, and actually, you know, doing active sales, negotiating with people, I enjoy all of that. And I feel like with God, I have a really, really good founder, marketing fit, like, the way we market the product works. And I feel good about it, and it plays to my skill set. And I'm always improving that skill set, but like, it's, it's very much in my wheelhouse. And I just feel like the way of promoting a book and it's just not a fit for me. Like it's just not. And, you know, I could promote it in other ways. Like, um I don't, I'm just I'm just so drained. Like, by so much of it. Like, the only thing that feels drained me is like, you know, talking to people on podcasts.Colleen Schnettler  29:16  Okay, so I felt this way about the book for a while, it feels like you're asking permission to not market it.Michele Hansen  29:22  Yeah. Because I feel like to me, like you know, there was there was this point when I was still in the drafting phase when somebody who had who had bought the preorder of it you know, made a comment I think on like LinkedIn or something that like, the book was not only helping them understand their customers better, but also helping them understand how to be a better coworker and spouse. And like, that was the moment when I knew I was like, Okay, this book has achieved what I hoped it would achieve. And then some like my like, wildest dream goal here. And now I just need to ship it. But to me like the book is a success, if I have one person have that response to it, like, I don't need to have a million people read this book, I don't even need to have 10,000 Read it, right? Like it's and it's also like this is, this is a long term asset, right? Like it's not going to expire. You know, it's sold almost 1000 copies in its first year, which is apparently a lot better than, than most books both published and self published. Like this is a long term thing, I can't exhaust myself on it now doing all sorts of things that I don't need to do that don't feel natural or like a fit to me. But just success is just not the number of copies sold. And it's not like anybody is asking for how many I've sold. But I'm like, oh, like spilled in public thing. I should be posting like a numbers update every so often. And I do that. And then I find myself like checking the sales reports every day, and I feel so drained. And it's just like, it's just, that's just not success to me. Like I just don't. I just don't, I just don't care about like, that was just not I didn't write it to make money or to sell a certain number of copies. I feel like I've kind of been stuffing down my own feelings about what success for the book looks like.Colleen Schnettler  31:38  Right? So my thought here is, why are we even talking about it anymore? don't market it. Just let it be? Oh, no, no, that that's the right thing. Right. Like I said, Okay, well do what you feel comfortable with. I'm you know, podcast. SoMichele Hansen  31:53  booked on a bunch of podcasts like, Yeah, I kind of kind of like take like a month off from doing that. Okay, but like, I like doing that. Um, but even like writing the newsletter, like, has felt like a burden. And I think it's because I've been doing all this. I've been doing all this talking about talking to customers, but I haven't had time to actually talk to customers. Yeah, I feel like I have anything to say at this point. I mean, and the point of the book was to get everything in my head out. Right, I did that. And so now I don't really? I don't know I, at least for right now. I feel like I don't have anything else.Colleen Schnettler  32:34  Yeah, well, I think that okay, so you know me very well. I am a pretty logical person. Don't read horoscopes don't go to psychics, not really into that touchy feely stuff. And I am a firm believer, despite all of that, this is totally out of line with my personality. I'm a, I'm an I'm a firm believer of like going with your energy. So if you are dreading it every time you send out a Black Friday email, I mean, you you've learned this about yourself, you know that that's not the right thing to do. So I for you, and your, you know, because you have income from another source, you can totally do that you are in no way dependent on this book income. I think it's great that you've kind of discovered this about yourself and made this decision. And you're just going to do the things that, you know, bring you energy and you love which it sounds like is the podcast promoting and just let the other stuff go turn off the notifications? Who cares?Michele Hansen  33:25  Yeah. You know, I think for like, for me, like, my theme of 2021 was the phrase soul nourishing, and I love that doing things that I felt really, really nourished my soul whether that's conversations with people who have similar values, or ideas or dreams, or writing the book, and kind of fulfilling that lifelong dream of writing a book was one of them. I don't know what 2022 is going to be, but I feel like it needs to be not just my soul getting nourished because as we've talked about, I've neglected a lot of other areas of I don't I don't know the word I'm looking for here but like, there needs to be a sort of overall wellness. Focus, I think a little bit more of a holistic, nourishing. Okay, going on. And that includes kind of like, yeah, you're such a California girl, respecting my energy, you know,Colleen Schnettler  34:43  I know right? Come over, I'll give you an SAE Bowl trophy for breakfast now. I didn't even know what else it was before I moved here. Now I'm like, Oh, I buy that shit at Costco.Michele Hansen  34:53  Yes, I'm gonna show up and you're gonna give me like crystals and essential oils. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no Yeah, I know, I, you know, it took me like a couple of months for that phrase like Soul nourishing to kind of crystallize in my head and be driving me. So it's gonna take me time for whatever this new phrase is going to be. But like, I'm very much in my head, like, like I like I went to get a massage a couple weeks ago because like, I need to work on my stress, I need to lower my stress levels, I need to go get a massage. And the massage therapist was like, I need to get you out of your head and into your body because you are so much in your head. Yeah. And and so, I don't know. I don't know. I'll let you know when I figureColleen Schnettler  35:38  out what Yeah, report back. But so for you 2020 To tell us more aboutMichele Hansen  35:43  to like I was so outside my comfort zone this year between being in a country and writing a book and promoting a book and like, all these other things, like I'm so far outside my comfort zone that I really just want like, comfort and coziness in my life. Like I want yeah, I want it to be calm and peaceful and quiet. Like I find myself missing quietness.Colleen Schnettler  36:15  And so you think for you that you don't know what that looks like, but you think that probably means more time on geocodes to working with your husband. And just chill out? Like you're kind of acclimating you've been there a year now. How long have you lived there? Gosh, when did you go here a year and a half?Michele Hansen  36:32  Like, yeah,Colleen Schnettler  36:33  the podcast. I can always no, that's because we're notMichele Hansen  36:36  talking to each other. It's like, we need a weekly appointment to make sure we talk to each other. Let's make it a public appointment. Like,Colleen Schnettler  36:44  uh, but I Yeah, okay. I know, you're talking about calm over there. And I have, for whatever reason, something you said just started all these ideas going off into my head that I'm really excited about all of a sudden. So. Yes. 2020 To be a calm year for Michelle 2023 I mean, refer to comfortingly. arity Yeah. push really hard for a yearly arity. No, I totally get that. I think, right, you worked. I mean, you hustled like, whoa, this year. So maybe this 2022 is a year where you relax into what you have built and grown for yourself. I mean,Michele Hansen  37:27  and I also, you know, did expand my luck surface area to quote peeking again. And, you know, so that means, you know, maybe there will be conference talk opportunities or other podcasts or something like, I'm open to that. It's just, I'm just Yeah, I'm just so tired. And, you know, I like, I like giving talks, but I'm not gonna, like hustle and create this, like workshop package that I can sell to companies.Colleen Schnettler  38:00  Yeah, you know what? I'm not gonna do. Okay, can I say something? Because I want to get it on record. Okay. So, earlier, you said that you were looking, you know, how drainie I'm sorry, how the marketing for the book is really draining, and you want to do things that really, you know, bring you energy. Okay, this is only 2021. So I'm thinking like, 2025 and I know, I brought this up a few times. However, now that I have a business that looks like it's gonna be really successful. Dude, we are so starting an incubator. Like we're gonna have our own venture fund, and then we're going to help people build businesses. 2025 You heard it here first.Michele Hansen  38:39  I don't know if it's a venture fund or like, it's like our own on profit income. I don't know what it looks like or something. There's gonna be a software social something.Colleen Schnettler  38:51  I feel like this is gonna happen. Like you talking about your energy levels. That'sMichele Hansen  38:55  taken but software social something is Yeah. Gonna have coming at some pointsColleen Schnettler  39:03  in the next 10 years. The future in the future. Yeah. Okay. I know, I brought it up before I just when you were talking about excitement. I was like, Oh, dude, this is this is something we're gonna maybe do someday. That'll be a good retirement job for me. Yeah, totally. Right. I mean, maybe it'll be years 20 years. I don't know. Someday. So that sounds good, though. I mean, that sounds like for you.Michele Hansen  39:29  In my backyard those are my retirement you drink gin. Yeah, like dreamed about making a little like, gin distillery My oh my gosh, are so funny on our farms smell like they smell like apricots when you bolt them. And then I'm like, Oh, Nick, amazing. Like pine. Apricot. Gin. So I don't make it now. But that's again, retirement dreamColleen Schnettler  39:48  retirement dream. Yeah, so it sounds like to sum up your money 52 Oh my gosh, to submit for 2022 It sounds like you are looking for a year of finding balance. Yeah, and all the things balance. I think I am looking for another hustle year. So 2022 is going to be another I know 2021 was a hustle year for me with Hammerstone launching and simplify, upload kind of not sure what I'm going to do with that. But 2022 for me is another hustle year I thinkMichele Hansen  40:26  2020 was like a hustle year for you as much as like a ping pong year because I feel like all over the place kind of all over the place like both like physically and yeah, work wise. And like, I would love to see you really, really grow into this role of being a founder of Hammerstone. And like, and, and bringing that to life and helping that blossom and really leaning into that because I think you have so much more to discover about yourself as a founder.Colleen Schnettler  41:04  Yeah, totally agree. I love it.Michele Hansen  41:06  Cheers to 2022 Cheers toColleen Schnettler  41:09  2022 Oh, my goodness. All right, well, I guess that will wrap up this week's episode of the software, social podcast, Happy New Year to all of you. We'd love to hear what your goals are for 2022. Or if you want to hit us with the 2021 recap. That's always fun. We love to hear everyone's stories. You can reach us on Twitter at software slash pod. Talk to you next year. It's no my favorite joke. Remember when you were a kid and used to make that joke? Like like talk to you next year? It's still a great joke. Okay,

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show
You Can Overcome Anything: Ep 188 - Overcoming a Limiting Mindset & Selfish Past – J. Robert Parker

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 27, 2021 45:33


CesarRespino.com brings to you J. Robert Parker to todays episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show.J. Robert Parker is a union certified Master Hypnotist and owner of Twin Ravens Hypnotherapy and Research LLC. Educated at HMI College of Hypnotherapy, his passion is helping people overcome their limiting beliefs and self images to become a version of themselves that they are able to unconditionally love.He now offers Hypnotherapy, coaching services, and group hypnosis.J. Robert Parker's message to you is:"I really want to emphasize that there is nothing that can't be overcome. That no matter how bad it looks and feels, the right mindset will bring love and success into your life."To connect with J. Robert Parker go to:www.twinravens.orgjrobertparker@protonmail.comTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show
You Can Overcome Anything: Ep 187 - Control Your Fears, Control Your Life – Vira Buchkovska

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 24, 2021 34:06


In today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything Podcast Show!, CesarRespino.com brings to you a special guest by the name of Vira Buchkovska all the way from Central Europe.Vira Buchkovska is a mindset coach that is inspired to help people to grow their self-confidence. From a younger age she loved to study the psychology of people and their behavior. She realized that people's behavior is habitual and to change anything for the better, it's important to understand ourselves on a profound level. It has nothing to do with knowledge but the inner capacities that each of us possess. All starts from within and a simple decision. Yes i am ready!Vira realized that when fear stroke she was causing it, and learned to take control of her fears.She now offers different opporutnites.Self-Confidence formula - freeBook - "Younger Living" - develop great looks with right food.Create new you - program - 3 monthsGet that what you want - program - 6 monthsVira's message and advise to you is to do the following:Take a piece of paper and ask yourself:1. "What do I really want ?2. "Can I do it ?"3. Take action without hesitation.To Connect with Vira, go to:Instagram: Younger_liv_ingFB: Vira BuchkovskaTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

Software Social
Enterprise Sales as an Indie SaaS featuring Josh Ho, Founder of ReferralRock

Software Social

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 21, 2021 30:02


Follow Josh! https://twitter.com/jlogicEvery doctor is concerned about your vital signs, but a good doctor cares about your overall health. Your website deserves the same care, and Hey Check It is here to help- Hey Check It is a website performance monitoring and optimization tool- Goes beyond just core web vitals to give you a full picture on how to optimize your website to give your users an optimal, happy experience- Includes AI-generated SEO data, accessibility scanning and site speed checks with suggestions on how to optimize, spelling and grammar checking, custom sitemaps, and a number of various tools to help youStart a free trial today at heycheckit.comMichele Hansen  0:36  Hey, everyone, welcome back to software social, Colleen and I have a friend joining us today. We have Josh whoa here with us. Josh is founder of Referral Rock, which is referral software. They've been around since 2015. Also in the north, a million air club and have 16 employees. And Josh is also co host of the podcast searching for SAS, which actually kind of a similar concept to our show with a sort of an experienced entrepreneur and then somebody who's transitioning from consulting. So welcome, Josh.Josh Ho  1:20  Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, we're been a longtime listener and obviously have known you too for a while and are definitely our podcast that Nate and I have or was totally inspired by you guys. So it is extremely similar. But we've sort of diverged and done different things since then. But the concept was,Michele Hansen  1:39  so we're so excited to have you here. So about Gosh, what was this like a month or so ago when we were chatting with Twitter on everyone about like, what, what should we even talk about on this show? And what do you find interesting. And something that came up was people were interested to hear more about some of the challenges and struggles and operations of running a larger business. And so we're gonna kind of dive into one of those areas today, which is something that I spend a lot of my time on actually more time than I do customer research, which is sales. And we're specifically going to talk about enterprise sales, since I feel like that can be kind of this like, I don't know, sort of like a scary topic for people to think about. And so we thought it'd be kind of interesting to sort of talk about how you do sales, how we do them. And then Coleen can kind of ask us questions about it. That sounds good. So too, so I guess I'll kick us off calm? Or do you? Do you have a question you want to start with? No, go ahead. Um, so can you just like, give us a sense, like, in a, like, like, how does an enterprise deal for you usually starts? Like, are you guys doing cold outreach at all?Josh Ho  3:08  No, we don't do any cold outreach. And maybe it'd be helpful. How do you define enterprise sales? Because I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing as well. Are you talking like, like, sighs of customer size of kind of deal or, because like, we do all kinds of sales, and I would segment a certain area that I consider more enterprise than our some of our other types of sales as a SaaS business that has, like, the two three plan. Normal thing on the pricing page plus theMichele Hansen  3:38  Yeah, I guess I define it and skipping to define it, because people define it really different ways. For me, it's when there's a custom contract involved, which usually means it's at least $10,000 a year, but usually a lot more. I know, you know, if you're talking, you know, venture back startup, like enterprise deal is like, you know, minimum 50 100 $200,000. We're not usually in that range. Most of our what I what I term an enterprise agreement, which is, you know, when you're dealing with, you know, five different departments on the customer side, they're a huge company, you're doing extended contract negotiation, like there's, you know, it's not just somebody goes to the website, clicks it and buys it, and then they use it. Right, there's more involved on our side. And usually those are in that 10 to 50,000 range for us for annual revenue.Josh Ho  4:42  Okay, yeah, yeah. So when I classified that so it is that ask us where it's outside normal rails have the quick, you know, click to buy.Michele Hansen  4:51  Yeah, like not self service. Basically, there's something special that has to go onJosh Ho  5:00  Sure. So yeah, to answer your first question we, we don't do outbound. So we do all inbound, we have a strong SEO footprint. So we a lot of inbound requests that fall into two camps, we usually take them if you these are, quote unquote, are like lead magnets, you can either sign up for an account, or you can request a demo, at this point in our lifecycle. We are we attract people onto our site. And then essentially, there's like a 5050 split, we kind of, we have a philosophy on it now, which is saying, like, let a buyer by how they want to buy. Because you typically see product lead growth, like everyone funneling people to, you know, trials or to sign up. But we try to clearly say you have two paths. Because once someone determines that they do want to talk to someone, you know, it can easily get into the enterprise space, or it might just be like you were saying, a person that requires more of a relationship based sale, where they are talking to their internal champions they need to convince, they still need to go through procurement and all of those things. So for today, we can mostly talk about once they get into that demo track for us. And what happens is they can for us, some of those customers can fit into a standard offering. So like our, it might be an $800, or the $1,200 a month type of thing, usually paid annually. And on the first level, we sort of try to standard out bits of it, where it's like, and we can probably get into more detail of this. So is it our contract? Or is it their contract? That's like usually the first type of thing. And usually, if it's a scoped plan, we try to keep them. And in a regular price plan that isn't like, Hey, I have, you know, I have a million people I want to add to your form versus the 50,000, or the 100,000 kind of ones that areMichele Hansen  7:00  a little interesting. So you actually you will start out at the point of using their contract because like, I mean, yeah. Okay, okay. I'm gonna start like, I mean, yeah, sort of count the number of times we have relented and use the customers contract with an extensive, you know, Addendum and scope of work on our side. Yeah.Josh Ho  7:27  Right. Yeah, we try to keep them on rails of our stuff as much as possible, right, like whether, like first level one is just click checks to our checkbox, the checkbox that says I, your terms of service, on our website, level two is our standard contract. And then level three is like, they might have some alterations, our standard contract to which we already know, in scope, like, these are the things we're willing to bend on. So it's almost you have to build in or you know, what stuff you're going to be like, yeah, we'll give you that one type of things. And then yeah, level, I think I was on level three, level four is, okay, bear contract, but it is, like you, that has only happened a handful of times over the course of our of our existence, we and we fight like a lot, try to keep it in our other stuff, just to make it faster, because we don't have a large team, we don't have a I don't want to waste, you know, half of their contract on lawyers to try to get this out or get myself into into trouble agreeing to something that I clearly don't know. And I might have to use a lawyer justMichele Hansen  8:42  it sounds like our sales, and like purchasing process is like really, really similar. Right? Because like, we are also entirely SEO based, we don't do any outreach. Everything is in its entirely inbound. And then yeah, that first level is, you know, can they can they click to accept the terms on the website and use an off the shelf plan and you know, pay with a credit card, like, great. And then you kind of go to the next level of okay, maybe they need the contract, but they don't need any modifications, but are okay, they need a contract, but then they do need not modifications. And then yeah, getting sort of more complex as you go. Which I feel I don't know how common that is, like, I feel like it's maybe sort of a I mean, it's definitely a very, like company, one style approach where we're trying to make the process as efficient as possible. And where our goal is not, you know, maximizing the revenue from every customer but it's like, how can we you know, get people to something that works for them. That doesn't take up too much time and resources on our end so that we can you know, get more customers it's very much sort of playing a volume game, rather than one where you're, you're trying to maximize revenue per customer.Josh Ho  9:56  Yeah, I agree with that. It's just I even though we are You know, what it was for 16 people or so or more than 15 At this point, it's mostly because it's a diversity of skill sets versus necessarily like, Hey, I've got like all these people working for me, it's, it's because we have like a customer success area, we have people dedicated to content marketing we have, we do have salespeople. And we do have, you know, developers and product managers and QA, things like that. So there is it's more of, for us that size of companies stuff is more about like, clearly dividing roles and actually having some specialists because I can't, in the early days, I was doing it all and then way our business scaled was through, okay, I need to add add people to this. We aren't as as I would say, like I know your API based types of things, but there's, and there's probably an immediacy to the value someone can get with using your service. For us, it takes more onboarding, it takes people to set up a campaign set up a referral program, set up their rewards, all of those pieces require a lot more hand holding. And some people come in thinking, Oh, I'm just gonna click this and start and it's like, well, Oh, you want to set a reward, oh, the reward, your good rewards actually, like resonate well with your customers. So it may not be $5 off or a, you know, or like a discount or something like that. But it might be like a mug, it might be swag. So it's like helping people kind of understand how to use it. So there's like a longer track in there. That requires more people to be involved. So we've tried to keep it as tight as possible back to like, the contract and everything, knowing we're building a SAS and building it for the long haul. I'd say right now, it's everything about like, how can we scale it? How do we make it less complicated to then as we do add customers, we don't necessarily have to add staff in addition to it. So we've been pretty diligent on forcing forcing functions into our contract. Oh, that's great. You want to throw money at us? But you know what? That's not what we do. We don't do custom damn sure you get there's no custom def. Oh, we had this we can add on. Yep, exactly. So it's like we push back hard. And I'd rather continue to build a product. This from Shopify as approach to if you've ever heard, there's a great podcast they did a while back that I listened to, like, they only recently got socked to, like only, like, within the past year or two. And I was like, blown away by everything that especially from an enterprise standpoint, because they, but their philosophy was like, okay, great, we're just gonna keep building the better product and to make it so that the internal champions like we're the only option for them. So it's like, they could jump through hurdles over SOC to over contracts over things like that, because they just made a strong feel like you know, what, we're making a, almost a philosophical decision that we're not going to jump through your hoops, you're going to jump through ours. And we will sacrifice the dollars that could come in, and that's okay. And it took them I don't know, however many years before, they actually got, like, soku compliance, and it was like, they only did that last year. And, like, I'm considering that, but I don't really want to at all, like that just seems like a big waste of time or a big like, headache. And I'm like, well, could we pull that off to where our stuff is so good, or is so much aligned that the Intel champion is going to battle? Lawyers inside battle their bosses and things like that. So that, oh, just make an exception for us. WhenMichele Hansen  13:42  sock two has come up, we have been able to, you know, have have the champions help us get around it. Whether that's because the so it's funny, sometimes you see those things? Like, it's a really hard requirement. You're you then you just are like, Yeah, we don't have that and they're like,Colleen Schnettler  14:00  Wow, your sales process as it sounded like it was like early days,Michele Hansen  14:03  clearly a no go without socks, you know, you're saying it's not important, or what it actually is important. So, um,Josh Ho  14:12  if I go back all the way down, I was doing that it was started out with me having no idea what sales was. So it started out with me just thinking I was all I was doing was helping people on like chat support, and then I'd be just frustrated and annoyed because they would it would just I'd be sitting there like typing back and forth. And I'd be typing while they're typing. And you're just like, I just want to show you versus trying to have this asynchronous chat conversation. So it started with me just being like, do you want just share, do a screen share? I think this is pre dated zoom a bit like where's zoom was prevalent. It might have been like, oh, let's do a WebEx or something I don't remember. But we'd get on a call and then I'd basically kind of help them. So that was like very early. stage one, just still having people coming in bounce using the app. And once I started talking to people kind of got, oh, there's a lot of other questions. And they also figured out, they did need the manual help. And it wasn't just something that they could just sign up the app for so. And quickly after I realized how many more people were buying after I talked to them, and I'm like, oh, that's, that's interesting. Now, they actually know more about what we do, and how to set it up. And all of these things, and oh, lo and behold, it's like, half of the people bought, it's like, Oh, I gotta talk to more people, it just kind of was this natural, ergo, I want more sales, I should talk to more people. So that was that that base level finding. And then I went through trials of trying to find salespeople, I won't divulge too far into that side of the story. But eventually, we I found someone that joined me, and this is like, after post revenue, we were doing well enough to pay for itself and, and pay for a couple people. And I brought someone on slowly to like, slot into that into that spot. So I had a an early I would call him like a partner. Now, not quite if you go by strict definitions of founder, you know, he probably joined about two years after I started. So this was 2017. And he kind of took that over and level one was just slotting in and doing what I was doing. And then taking it further because he could be full time on it. So he was doing that he split up our customer success area, because naturally once people bought that it's like, okay, they need onboarding and support and all of these pieces. And then over time, we grew that to, to have, you know, like two salespeople under him as the inbound engine kept going, as we kept building out more SEO and trying to what I call, like being in the conversation, I think you and I have talked about that before from a marketing standpoint. And now, if we're speeding up now, tour now, like we talked about that whole, like letting buyers buy how they want to buy, and we started as our product approved, we could start steering more people directly to that, to that split between start in the product or start to talk to someone. And since then, we have also added another layer of type of salesperson where we've pulled from our CS team who is extremely experienced with onboarding. And actually just from a resource constrained perspective, we're like, Hey, these are really helpful people that know a ton about programs. So instead of a typical salesperson trying to get someone over the line, we're like, Hey, we're gonna do these demos, we're going to do these like one quick call consultation, almost like back to the roots of where I started, and then not any follow up, or just doing very more follow up. And we call that like our, like buyer assist process versus like a sales driven process. So tracking back when we had the sales one with two salespeople. That was like a traditional commission based model, like, like you have a salary and you have some commission, but over the past year, we have spun up a new like that, that middle area where we have a CS person that just does group calls just as really helpful. And, and has maybe one call with people and and and some follow up.Colleen Schnettler  18:26  Nice. So this is a little off topic, but I'm intensely curious about what you're you have 16 full time employees. So the transition, where were you at your developer?Josh Ho  18:40  Ah, yes, I was I started I built like the initial versions. Yeah. So I come from a development background and started with that. So howColleen Schnettler  18:49  did you learn how to manage hire, even like salary? Like how was that building it out? I mean, what was that transition, like for you going from software to people business stuff?Josh Ho  19:03  Well, I did have a tip into kind of some business stuff previous to starting for rock. So I did have like some software consulting businesses with just just myself not large. I had maybe like two people, maybe two other developers working for me. So there's kind of that I could do my taxes, I can do all those things. So it's, you know, those those I do refer back. And then even pre, the consulting, I was a developer at another company and then worked my way up into be like to manage manage developers. I think the last role I had that was not paid by myself was technically I think I was the Director of Technical Operations at a benefits administration company that we built software for it was like a first step there. So I kind of worked my way over more towards the business side after after, like leading the dev teams and different stuff like that. So So anyway, if that helps,Colleen Schnettler  20:02  just like, it just seems like a big transition.Josh Ho  20:05  Yeah, I mean, I guess there was a lot, I'm probably, whenever people see me or meet me, it's like, I'm probably, you know, I'm older than I look with my Asian jeans, I suppose. But there's a lot of that. And then also, we've grown organically, right? So it wasn't like, boom, all of a sudden, two years into referral rock, I have six people it was, you know, people, if you talk to other founders that have been through this, it's, it's like, okay, first you are managing two or three people that were extensions of yourself. And then, you know, the next big step is like, Okay, how do I now perform this magic trick to where we have, like two people working in an area and person's like, kind of the lead and not really a team? It's like, where do you go from this flat structure into sort of a more hierarchical structure to where you have managers or you have leaders, and all of that has just taken time. And each, even each department or area that I've talked about, had gone through different parts of that, like, marketing was pretty much like me and one other person for a really long time. And then, like, I talked about how the sales and customer success area grew. And that one, you know, we sometimes we had to push forward to grow out of needing redundancy, and like coverage of time and things like that. And then, you know, another area for Dev was like me bringing on a tech lead. But that was actually I brought on my first developer, because I brought on a first developer under me who was just helping me execute. And then later on, I brought in a tech lead to kind of start managing the team and build out kind of more of the like, get to handle more developers to manage the other developers to put some actual structure in place versus, you know, me just get a push.Michele Hansen  21:55  I have a question about something you mentioned earlier. So you mentioned how when you first started trying to hire someone to do sales, it sounds like it was a little bit rocky and took you some time to hire that the the person who ended up becoming a partner and becoming a really good fit. And I feel like it's worth drilling in on that, because I learned recently that that's a very common experience. I was talking to Harris, Kenny, and well, I don't know if it was at founder summit or is on Twitter, it all blends together at this point. But um, you know, he runs a sort of sales as a service kind of thing. And he was saying how most of his clients have several failed sales hires before they come to him. But it's like, it's like really hard to hire a good salesperson. And, you know, I recognize that you may not you may not want to dive too much into that sort of the specific situations of what happened with the people that didn't work out. But I'm curious, like, you know, is there anything you wish you had known about hiring your first sales person? That, you know, the the that took you some fits and starts to figure out that maybe you wouldn't have had to go through that if you had known it?Josh Ho  23:16  Sure. I mean, that I'm perfectly happy to talk about it. I just feel like this is one of those topics I've talked about a lot in the past, but obviously on this podcast, but perfectly happy to dive in. What the first subtracting back in that part of the story. It was like after me. And that was the whole like, I didn't think what I was doing with sales. I just thought I was just being helpful. And I had that mindset of like, oh, like, like, the guy at the car dealership. That's like a sales guy. I've worked in organizations that have used, you know, that have had salespeople, and it was like, they go to conferences, they do this Patagonia, you know, this, like, like, Yeah, I'm not, I'm not a salesperson. I'm just like, I'm just like, I just built the product. And I'm helping people like that's and and so my first hire for that sales role. Pre the one I found that I said, that had worked out very well, was a person that looked and talked to like a salesperson, and, you know, they're like, Yeah, I could sell anything like I sell to SMBs. I think, if I recall her previous work was she would do SMB sales, she would go to restaurants and like, go to the restaurants and talk to them and build relationship Build, Build candor, build rapport, and, and you know, sell the product. So that was like her tact. And I was like, Okay, great. Let's that's your real salesperson. Let's give you a shot. So I like redirected all the demo requests to her. And I recorded myself doing some and then I kind of handed it off to her. And honestly, like, it was just what I realized what I didn't realize was how large gap it was in terms of her needing to understand the product to relate it to customers and all of these things. It was like, oh, okay, you, you really don't know much about the product. And I tried to explain it to her. And we went through all of these types of things. So, one, she was a traditional kind of salesperson now, could she have been successful if he had the right, like onboarding in place, or it wasn't just like, hey, you're just gonna slot in replace me, and this is what I did. So kind of just do what I did, or go do your thing. And it, there was like a large gap. And that was probably the biggest mistake. for her and for myself, just not knowing, like, just what that what, where, where the transition point really was. And then, when I did find the other person, it was more of the entrepreneurial type of person. His name is Mike. Oh, by the way, I don't. It's easier to probably say names since this person in that person. So Micah, who's still with me, you know, he came in and the biggest thing he kind of joked about was like, it's funny, if you ever meet him, he doesn't have like, much of a, like an ego, per se. But one of the first statements he said, he's like, I could do everything you could do. But Sal, oh, no, sorry, but Bill, but write code. And I'm like, okay, like, all right, like, let's say, you know, here's, here's the challenge, you know, go ahead and just hear some recordings and go wild. And the biggest thing he could do was be consultative and be adapting to the customers. And that also, that first thing of like, he knew he didn't know and would happily be like, I don't know, let me find out. And those were some of like, the early parts of the trades that he was just looking to relate to the customers look to bridge that gap between them. And I think the biggest challenge is like, that's not what I look for initially, like the whole thing. The other salesperson, I was like, she sounds like a salesperson, she's done a sales job. And coming into that realization that, like his approach was much like mine approach. And I was like, Oh, this is selling, this is like consultative selling, this is different. This isn't ramming something down someone's throat, and all these things, and this can work. And this can scale outside. ItMichele Hansen  27:18  sounds like it was important for you to realize that you the salesperson, I mean, in talking about our business is to like the salesperson not only needs to align with how you conceptualize sales, even if you don't have a particularly strong sales, you know, strategy or philosophy yourself, right. But also that you know, how your business is set up, right? Like a business that's very SEO based, that's entirely inbound is a very different business where then one where you've got to go out like pounding the pavement. And it sounds like the approach of mica is really one that just kind of jived more with the business model, as it already was, rather than kind of pivoting to more of an outbound approach. And and it being difficult for you as a manager to like really support that person in that role, too, because it because it just kind of wasn't aligned with with how you thought about just the concept of selling in general.Josh Ho  28:19  Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think it makes me like what as you're saying, it was like, I didn't know that. How important that the alignment needed to be at that time, because I thought sales was this black box, and I need a black box. Right. And so I think, once I did come to terms with what I was, what I was doing, is is a way of selling and again, that mica was in alignment from a like a cultural standpoint, from an approach standpoint, all of those things, then it kind of that was more important than the actual like, what, what I've been done the things I didn't know that I thought I didn't know if that made sense.Michele Hansen  29:03  Well, thank you so much for coming by today. Josh. It's been really interesting talking to you about scaling up sales. We kind of set this up that like Coleen could ask questions and then we just talked together. But if if anyone has questions about for either of us about doing sales, feel free to reach out to us on Twitter. Now we'll talk to you again next week.

Episode One Podcast with Michael and Eric

I've only got 30 seconds to write this description before my computer explodes…Gosh, the time crunch really makes me second guess my every instinct and I just don't know what to write here. Oh well, check out this epis—

Sunday Sermons from Trinity UMC Lincoln, Nebraska

Are you longing for inner quiet on this last week before Christmas? Today we turn to the story of Mary, pregnant with Jesus, visiting her relative Elizabeth. It's a moment of peace, simplicity, and pure joy in the midst of the chaos of life both before and after it.

On The Doc
Tiger King II Part One

On The Doc

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 67:30


We just can't quit Tiger King so here's a follow-up to last year's juggernaut quarantine documentary. Gosh we love this train wreck. We talk for about fifteen minutes at the beginning about absolutely nothing so if you'd rather skip that, the doc conversation really starts at or about 15:30. Also, there's a couple of times the discussion turns a little sideways so it might be NSFW. No cursing, just some adult subjects. Don't judge. Enjoy and let us know what you think, friends! (Streaming on Netflix.) --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/onthedoc/message

Elevate Your Life with Evelyn Kelly
55. Riding the Rollercoaster of Life & Business In 2021

Elevate Your Life with Evelyn Kelly

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 16, 2021 29:56


Welcome back to the last official podcast episode for 2021! Gosh, it's been a wild ride!! Today's episode is a personal one from me where I share some of my reflections from the highs and lows of life and business this year and so many nuggets of wisdom along the way.   I'd love to invite you to my free Transformation Hour workshop Monday 20th December 2021 7pm NZDT, where I will take you through a gorgeous goal-setting workshop like never before! I can't wait to see you there. Make sure you sign up HERE, it's totally free!   Evie x   Let's Connect: Sign Up for Transformation Hour, it's free! Book your Free Discovery Call with Evie for 1:1 Business Coaching Book your one-off 90mins Business Coaching Call – Your Roadmap to a profitable, sustainable, soul-led business in 2022 1:1 Life Coaching with Evie Join my Free Facebook Community Group Website: https://www.evelynkelly.co.nz/ Instagram: @evelynrobertakelly Join Cool, Calm & Confident, the 21day programme to build inner confidence and connection HERE        

Market Dominance Guys
Is Cold Calling a Form of Slapstick?

Market Dominance Guys

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 14, 2021 26:35


What makes a great cold caller? Our guest today on Market Dominance Guys, James Thornburg, Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, defines the characteristics of a great cold caller as someone who puts in the hard work by having lots of conversations  — and also has a little charisma. James uses humor and ConnectAndSell's Lightning platform to connect to his prospects, and then shares his cold calls on LinkedIn for all to learn from — or be entertained by. Our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, are enthusiastic listeners, each touting the entertainment and educational value James provides with his cold-calling triumphs as well as his train wrecks. Listen in as these three sales guys discuss James Thornburg's ability to “pivot to a chuckle” on this Market Dominance Guys' episode, “Is Cold Calling a Form of Slapstick?” About Our Guest James Thornburg is the Enterprise IT Strategist at Bridgepointe Technologies, which offers a service that helps design IT or telecom projects for their clients and includes selecting the right supplier at the right price with no extra cost to their customers. ----more---- Here is the complete transcript to this episode. Announcer (00:06): Welcome to another episode with The Market Dominance Guys, a program about the innovators, idealists and the entrepreneurs who thrive and die in the high-stakes world of building a startup company. We explore the cookbooks, guidebooks and magic beans needed to grow your business. What makes a great cold caller? Our guest today on Market Dominance Guys, James Thornburg Enterprise IT Strategists at Bridgepointe Technologies defines the characteristics of a great cold caller as someone who puts in the hard work by having lots of conversations and also has a little charisma. James uses humor and ConnectAndSell's lightning platform to connect to his prospects and then shares his cold calls on LinkedIn for all to learn from. Or be entertained by. Our hosts, Chris Beall and Corey Frank, are enthusiastic listeners. Each touting the entertainment and educational value James provides with his cold calling triumphs as well as his train wrecks. Listen in as these three guys discuss James Thornburg's ability to pivot to a chuckle. On this Market Dominance Guys episode, is cold calling a form of slapstick? Corey Frank (01:16): Welcome to another episode of The Market Dominance Guys with Corey Frank and the prince [inaudible 00:01:22] and the prognosticator of all things sales, Chris Beall, my fabulous co-host here. So good afternoon, Chris. Chris Beall (01:30): Hey. Good to be here, Corey. Nice to see you. You look good. Corey Frank (01:33): Yeah, thank you. I think it's the lighting, it's all in the lighting with the black. Black, I heard, is slimming. I probably need to wear all black. But listen, we're in the presence of some royalty here. It's been a long time coming because we've talked about James several episodes. James, if you're one of our seven listeners, you know that your name has come up a number of times in some of the earlier episodes. So we have with us today, not only a titan of technology, the prince of pastures ... You're a farmer, you're a homesteader. But we have the one and only, the king of the cold call, James Thornburg with us. So welcome, James, to The Market Dominance Guys. James Thornburg (02:10): Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah. Corey Frank (02:12): Absolutely. So are you currently in the throne room? Is that what you call the cold call room you're in right now? James Thornburg (02:16): Yes, it's my basement downstairs. Chris Beall (02:21): James, I love your plain white background. It's so good. James Thornburg (02:24): It's great. For my calls, I've been using the Zoom background. We have some new branding here at Bridgepointe, but yeah, I like just the gray. Corey Frank (02:32): Yeah. Yeah. So James, we've been following you for a while, and obviously, you and Chris have known each other for a while, we've known each other for a few years. I've heckled and commented you on many a LinkedIn post. But you're the king of the cold call, you're not the earl of email or you're not the lord of LinkedIn, you chose the cold call as the channel of dominance for your business here at Bridgepointe. It's one of the principles at Bridgepointe. How come, in your sales career, why cold call versus ... Isn't email easier? Isn't LinkedIn easier? But you chose to have dominion as the king in probably one of the channels that most folks would shun. So why, for you, is the cold call king? James Thornburg (03:13): Well, I mean, I wasn't making a lot of calls for a lot of my career. I mean, when I first got out of college, I was making cold calls. I was selling insurance and I got into selling wireless phones and things like that for Nextel. So I was sitting the phones quite a bit then. And then I got into The Channel, and The Channel, you really just leveraged network relationships. And so I used those individuals to open up doors for me. And I did quite well when I was at my former company, Single Path, I was there for almost 12 years. And for about eight or nine of those years, I focused on working with networking partners and that's how I got introduced to opportunities. But things started to dry up, partnerships that I had before, they were acquired. Some of them were making so much money they just weren't active in terms of opening up opportunities and my pipeline was suffering because of it. So I started looking to figure out, hey, how am I going to net new opportunities? And I was thinking about it this weekend, I'm like, I don't even know how I got introduced to ConnectAndSell. I don't know if it was, I was Googling or whatever, but landed on ConnectAndSell and at that point I was reborn cold caller. And it kind of opened my eyes that, hey, I can open up a lot of opportunities using this platform and making dials. And then that put me in a position, I was at Single Path for about a year, year and a half on ConnectAndSell, using it as a full-time sales rep. And then I saw ConnectAndSell as my vehicle to basically start out. To go out on my own. That's basically what I did about two years ago. Corey Frank (04:50): Got you. Yeah, I think you and Ryan [inaudible 00:04:53] are birds of a feather there, that you put yourself out there. You both put yourself out there. And I think you pioneered this trend, James, that a lot of us can sit in the cheap seats, guys like me, and I can critique a call here and there. Chris and I certainly do our share of it. And we do our share of cold calls, certainly Chris is out there, he'll do it on stage. But James, you have a unique perspective that you actually do it on LinkedIn Live, you'll record your calls occasionally, and put them out there. Good, bad, ugly, warts and all. How'd you get started on that? What kind of crazy guy would do that and be that glutton for punishment? To put yourself so publicly out there? James Thornburg (05:28): I had a leased office in downtown Kalamazoo. I was still working at my former employer. The room was about four by seven with no windows, and I think it was in the middle of February, and I was bored one day. I was making these calls and I'm like, "Hey, why don't I just start recording these calls?" And I was like, "That was pretty funny about the VP of Technology that told me he was a teller." And so then I posted it on LinkedIn and got some traction and people seemed to be interested. And that's kind of where it started in terms of the videos for LinkedIn. Corey Frank (06:02): What do you think about that, Chris? I mean he certainly, as the CEO of his own company there, his own practice, James, he puts himself out there. You talked a lot about CEOs needing to do that, put themselves out there and do a certain amount of cold calls. I think James has certainly taken it to a different level. But what's your thoughts on that? Chris Beall (06:19): Well, I mean, James, what you've done at a different level is you're funny. And I actually think that that contrast between what people think about cold calling, which is the movies, the boiler rooms, the intensity, the screaming, all that stuff. And then we watch you and it's like, the very best part, to me, is that the camera is there for you. We're there. And you look at us and you use us. I mean, that's what fun. It's like, we're in the call because your feelings about it, especially that anticipation thing you do. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this might go, it might go. It's like, oh boom. And that, I think, is a completely new thing. Everybody's got different style, right? So Shane Mahey does his thing while he's along the banks of the Thames and he's making calls. And that's very much like calls. It's cool, but after, it's like making calls. Your stuff is not just cool, your stuff is funny. And I don't know, you don't think of yourself as a funny guy, I think. Right? James Thornburg (07:28): Not really. I mean, I'm trying to be funny today but it's not really working [crosstalk 00:07:32]. Trying to come up with something witty. Corey Frank (07:37): Great try. Great try. Chris Beall (07:38): Well, it's the thing that you do with the camera that I just think it's great. It's like, we're there. Because cold calling has this funny quality. Each call is an adventure, where you don't know what's going to happen. And somebody once asked me, some really intelligent person said, "Gosh, Chris, you seem to like sports, sporting events, more than most people who sport your particular mathematical inclinations." I think they said something about IQ or some nonsense like that. It's like, why? It's like, because I don't know how it's going to turn out. You get sucked into the little soap opera that is ... Or whatever, a game of some sort. Whatever it happens to. And every cold call is that kind of game. Even though it's not oppositional with this person, when we're there with you, I feel like we, the audience, are getting that sense of why the conversation ... And I'll make a distinction. Cold calls and cold conversations are two different things. If you had to cold call, you wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. Cold calling means not talking to anybody for an hour. That's crazy. Making cold conversations are pretty fun, if you're ready for the adventure. For us watching you, it's pure fun. Because we're not the ones who are dealing with the negative side, other than we get to deal with how you deal with it, which is funny. James Thornburg (08:59): Yeah. I mean it's fun to watch somebody get hung up on. Chris Beall (09:02): Who knew? Is it slapstick? That's a question. Is watching cold calling a form slapstick, where we don't have that much of that anymore, but are we getting a little Lucille Ball in there or whatever? A little Charlie Chaplin, I don't know. Corey Frank (09:18): I don't know. I think it's a little bit of schadenfreude, right? I mean, you see somebody else get his butt kicked. And you have a lot of good calls, a lot of successful calls. I think everybody wants to watch it for the train wrecks. And it does ... I know when I watch him, James, I feel like, wow, that was really clever. You start off with a joke, you're just very unassuming. You're not supplicative, you don't lose your status, but you really have this attitude where, "Listen, I'm a human, I'm looking for another human connection. And can we dispense with all the roles and all the accouterments of your title and role and just make a connection because you picked up the phone and I'm on the other end. And let's see if we have something that can benefit each other." And that's just very raw and authentic. Doing so many, and doing so many publicly, and certainly doing so many at scale, because you're the artisan of the ConnectAndSell weapon. What have you learned in cold calling? Because you said, most of your career, you didn't necessarily have to do it. And then you have just had probably more cold calls in the last couple of years, probably more than 99% of sales professionals in the B2B world, so what have you learned from this channel and from the reception that you get from decision levels? Decision level buyers? James Thornburg (10:40): Well, I mean it's really worked for my industry. Our offering, or what we do, is somewhat nuanced. I mean, we're helping IT leaders buy technology and it's hard to articulate that through any other medium. When you're able to have a conversation with somebody, it's easier to explain to them. Because like I said, I mean, what we do is somewhat nuanced, the concept is foreign to probably 90% of the people that we talk to. And I refer to it as speed dialing, ConnectAndSell. Just even using a power dialer or some manual dialing, then your power dialer. I mean, the challenge is, is that you're dealing with a lot of that minutia of cold calling, which is the reason why no one wants to make any calls. So to be able to just press a button and have some conversations. People think I work hard. I mean, it's a lazy way to do it. It makes things easier. You're just having conversations. Do you have the courage to press that button and talk to somebody? And if you don't, then what are doing in sales? And so, when you look at early on, I mean my pitch has evolved and things of that nature. I mean, people have a lot of opinions about the pitch, the openers and things of that nature, but gotten a lot better in terms of the tonality. Just my conversions are a lot higher and that's due to having a lot of at bats. Having a lot of conversations, you get better and better. I think people miss out on that. Everybody wants to talk about the conversions and things of that nature, but it's also, how do we make these reps better more quickly? And the way that you're going to be able to do that is more conversations. I don't know if that answered your question. Corey Frank (12:18): No, you really have to get frequent before you get good, is what I hear you saying. And you've been able to condense 20 years of cold calling, that most of us had to come up through the ranks using old rotary phones, and you've been able to condense it in the last two and a half years or so with a ConnectAndSell type of weapon, it sounds like. James Thornburg (12:36): Listen, I'm a little old school too. I didn't use a rotary phone, but I had index cards. Corey Frank (12:41): Sure. Sure. James Thornburg (12:43): I had index cards and I was writing on that, that was my follow-up. Corey Frank (12:46): Yeah, yeah. Right. With the volume of calls that you've made, and Chris and I would be interested in knowing, okay, because you had such a very tight learning curve over ... Not that you've never made cold calls, but I'm saying in this type of volume over the last 24, 36 months or so at volume, what doesn't work at a cold call? You say a lot of folks will say, "James, I have some opinions on your opener and I have opinions on X and Y and Z." Okay, well you do it at scale. So, in your opinion, what have you learned that doesn't work in a cold call, that you probably see a lot of folks still doing? James Thornburg (14:06): I don't know if I can answer that. I don't have strong opinions about openers, technique, and things of that nature. I don't like the, how are you, though. As the opener. I don't think that's a very good idea. But I think if you have the right tonality and it doesn't sound like you're reading off of some type of script, and you're putting in the work, you're going to have success. But I can't really pinpoint something that doesn't work in cold calling. I mean, what are your thoughts? Chris Beall (14:34): I've got some. I have ideas of what does work. So my two favorite people to listen to, having actual cold calls, are you and Cheryl Turner. And the reason is, both of you have the ability to pivot to a chuckle better than any other people out there. You're light enough with the situation that it's like, you've done the hard work, you've pushed the button, now you're going to be light with this person and let it roll and talk to them. And when something kind of funny comes up, or they challenge you in some way, that the best answer isn't to fight them, it's to laugh. Like the one the other day where the guy basically says something about being retired or whatever. And you go, "Well, we get these lists from these list providers and blah, blah, blah," and it was funny. I mean, it was funny but it was also like, it's not funny like me against you kind of funny. It's funny like, we're all in this together kind of funny. Like life is funny, kind of funny. And you and Cheryl both do it and you do it like ... I was with Helen a couple of weeks ago and we were going through a bunch of Cheryl's calls and listening to them. Because Helen has an interest in trying ConnectAndSell in a very special kind of way, with a huge, huge company out there that she might be calling into. And this is new to her. And she asked, "Well, what really makes it work?" And I said, "Let's go listen to Cheryl and listen to James. And I will break this down for you like I'm Howard Cosell, it's Ali/Frazier. I'm going to take you through this punch by punch. And I'm going to redirect your eyes from the gloves down to their feet so you can see what they're really doing." And what was so interesting was that EQ, on the spot, that it takes to laugh with somebody. I actually think that is the most interesting thing that both of you do. And it's spectacular. James Thornburg (16:33): Yeah. I mean, I don't know. It's just- Chris Beall (16:37): You think things are funny. James Thornburg (16:38): People get so upset about it, about cold calls and things of that nature. And it's just, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of other problems in the world. I mean, somebody calling you and everything and it's just like ... I mean, even the retired people. Sometimes I got to leave them with a joke because it's like, hey, you're retired. You're mad that I called you, I know that you get calls, but it's like, hey, lighten up a little bit. Let me leave you with a joke. And then I leave them with the five cold caller joke. Chris Beall (17:03): Yeah. I don't know if everybody knows the joke, but could you give us the joke? I mean, let's have Corey be all pissed off at you. Corey, you're retired, right? Or you're pretty much retired, as far as I can tell. James Thornburg (17:15): Corey, Corey. Hey, listen, let me at least leave you with a joke. What do you call five cold callers at the bottom of the ocean? Corey Frank (17:25): I don't know, James, what do you call five cold callers at the bottom of the ocean? James Thornburg (17:28): A good start. Corey Frank (17:31): That's right. See? And you made a human connection, right? Chris Beall (17:36): By the way, let me make a technical point there. This is something that our friend Chris Boss would call tactical empathy. Show the other person you see the world through their eyes, what do they think if they could think clearly about five cold callers at the bottom of the ocean? They'd think it's a good start, right? So some of these things, they sound very natural because they are. James, Cheryl, these people are true geniuses at this. Corey Frank (18:02): Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Chris Beall (18:04): Henry [inaudible 00:18:05] is now converting at 40%. And he's a guy you wouldn't have thought was a natural, but he's picked up a whole bunch of things from Cheryl. He works closely with Cheryl and some magic is going on. If Scott Webb, the 75.9% converter, he just sounds like he's your friend who knows you, who's calling you, and really thinks it's a good idea for you that we should have a meeting. And by the way, I got to go. So he's out of there, I got to. "Hey, I got call. I'll shoot you something." Boom. Done. So these folks all have something in common, which is, in the ring, so to speak, they're relaxed. They're excited and want something to happen, but still relaxed enough to laugh and make these simple-looking moves, that I know as an expert on this, are not that simple to master. Corey Frank (18:58): What do you guys think? Is that nature? Is it nurture? Is it is a little bit of Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption, where he only gets parole once he doesn't give a crap anymore? And it's that attitude, it's tough to teach somebody right out of school that ... It's not apathy. Like you said, it's more ... Because I'm not losing my status. It's very cool in the pocket. Is that something that's taught or is that something that can be learned? [crosstalk 00:19:25] Chris Beall (19:26): Did you have to learn it? Did you just fall into it? James Thornburg (19:31): I'd say repetition and personality. I mean, there is a little personality element to it. And I don't know how teachable that is. Chris Beall (19:40): I don't either. It's like being tall for basketball, you could be Spud Webb and you can be great, but there were never 30 Spud Webbs in the league. James Thornburg (19:53): I mean, I don't think you have to be a James Thornburg and have my personality. I mean, people bring different gifts to the game. And mine just happens to be hard work and maybe a little bit of charisma. Chris Beall (20:05): And more chickens. Corey Frank (20:07): Maybe it is. The homesteader lifestyle has certainly, probably contributes to the mellow nature, the connection, empathy. We screenplay the uh's and the um's in our screenplays that we use for outbound calling. And we got a lot of folks who say, "Doesn't that make you sound unsure? Does that make you sound like, don't know what you're talking about? And if you're talking with a C-Level or director level, they're going to go ..." It's like, no, makes you sound human. Chris and I talked about this last time, never trust a person who doesn't walk around with a little bit of a limp. And so, we screenplay that in. And I think that the brilliance of the 27 seconds is that, even if I don't have this high emotional intelligence, off the chart like you do, or Cheryl or Scott, that at least is a little bit of a verbal crutch to help get you there. That 27 seconds.              It's not, can I have a minute? 27 seconds. Chris was talking to me, we call it the playful curious. Can James come out and play? That's what we teach, that's what they teach in the flight school at ConnectAndSell, that is the perfect encapsulation of how to think. What the director's notes for the actor are on the screenplay. Playful curious, can James come out and play? That's how you say that in 27 seconds. And even if I blew the other part, I'm at least going to buy myself another few seconds by saying that. And you're a big advocate of the 27 seconds, certainly, James [inaudible 00:21:36]. James Thornburg (21:36): I'd be interested in Chris's opinion. I mean, how much of it is the call? I'd say it's 90% of the call. If they buy into the 27 seconds, they buy you more time, then you can tell your story and hopefully get some more information or book a meeting or get a follow-up, right? Chris Beall (21:51): Yeah, it's funny. Today I was talking with Donny Crawford about this and we were going pretty deep on this question of, what's the purpose of the cold call? And I pointed out to him, Donny, a great conversion rate is 10%. So that means 90% of the purpose is what happens when you don't convert? And he kind of stopped and he went, huh? He said, "Yeah, we get into that, don't we? That the purpose is to get the meeting." It's like, no, the outcome is to get the meeting when that's the right thing for both parties. Which is more often than you might think. But the purpose is to establish trust, and the caveat is, don't blow it. Once you've established trust in that first seven seconds, don't blow it. Because you're going to talk to this person later. They're in a cohort, it's called people who answer the phone. They're yours to talk with, over and over, 11/12 of them are in market right now. Now James sells something that's very nuanced. At ConnectAndSell, we sell something that's anti-nuanced but isn't in a category either. You can't go up to somebody and say, "Hey, you know what? I got something that's going to get you 10 times more conversations and you're going to love it." And they're going to go, "Wow, really? Here's my checkbook." They're going to go, "Huh, you're either an idiot or a charlatan. I don't know if I want to stick around to find out which." That's how it works and that was Cheryl's response to me in a test drive. I thought the guy was an idiot or a charlatan. She went off and used it, came back in 10 minutes and said, "I was wrong. You may well be an idiot and charlatan, we'll establish that later. But this stuff works, man." So I think that the whole game is at the beginning. When you look at it one way, 100% of cold calls succeed if you get that person to trust you and you don't blow it. And James, you never blow it. I never hear you blow it. Now, maybe you deep [crosstalk 00:23:48]. James Thornburg (23:47): I show the videos of the ones that I'm not blowing. Chris Beall (23:54): Well, people blow it. It's easy to blow it. You want to blow it, sell to them. Corey Frank (23:59): Yeah. Chris Beall (23:59): I get you to trust me, and then I sell to you, I'm kind of toast. Corey Frank (24:03): Yeah. I thought we were friends, what are you doing selling to me? Chris Beall (24:05): Exactly. Exactly. I love Scott Webb's point of view is, he says, "When I insist somebody take the meeting, my internal image is that I'm putting my hand out and slapping him in the chest and pulling them back so they don't step in front of a speeding bus. That's how I feel about that person. I'm saying them from something they didn't see, which is the disaster of not attending a meeting in which I'm going to teach them valuable stuff." Corey Frank (24:34): So he emotes that intent? Chris Beall (24:37): Yes. Yeah, we had a discussion once where he called me and said, "My mindset's wrong, I'm going to fix it." And he was converting 35%. And so he calls me back an hour later and says, "I fixed it. Five for five." And he's dragging that 35% tail into a 75.9% conversions. So he still got that statistical, that big hunk of bad back there, which he thinks is bad. And the rest of us go, "Woo, woo, that's pretty exciting." But it was a mindset change where he said, "You know what? I have an ethical obligation to this person, to make sure they come to this meeting, to learn what they don't even know can be learned. And I am going to satisfy that obligation by insisting they attend with me. That they take it. And if all I get is the verbal, and I just send them an invite, that's progress compared to no verbal. So I'm going to get the verbal, even if it doesn't have a date on it, and I'll send them an invite for something." I tell you what, the numbers don't lie. Corey Frank (25:35): Yeah, for sure. Announcer (25:37): Selling a big idea to a skeptical customer, investor, or partner is one of the hardest jobs in business. So when it's time to really go big, you need to use an uncommon methodology to gain attention, frame your thoughts, and employ successful sequencing that is fresh enough to convince others that your ideas will truly change their world. From crafting just the right cold call screenplays, to curating and mapping the ideal call list for your entire TAM, Branch 49's modern and innovative sales toolbox offers a guiding hand to ambitious organizations in their quest to reach market dominance. Learn more at branch49.com. Never miss an episode, go to any of your favorite podcast venues and search for Market Dominance Guys. Or go to marketdominanceguys.com and subscribe.

Healthy Wealthy & Smart
569: Drs. Bryan Guzski & Tim Reynolds: Movers & Mentors in the Physical Therapy World

Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 14, 2021 47:41


In this episode, Bryan Guzski, Director of the Orthopaedic Residency Program at the University of Rochester Medical Center, and Tim Reynolds, Clinical Assistant Professor of Anatomy & Physiology at Ithaca College, talk about their work on Movers & Mentors. Today, Bryan and Tim talk about their book, Movers & Mentors, and they get the opportunity to be the interviewers for a portion of the episode. Why is it important to have mentors? Hear about the motivation behind the book, some surprising interviews they've done, the value of having a team, finding your ‘why', and choosing when you say ‘yes', all on today's episode of The Healthy, Wealthy & Smart Podcast.   Key Takeaways “From an entrepreneurial standpoint, from a business standpoint, your partner is everything.” “Invest in [yourself] and take care of [yourself], physically and mentally, so that you can take care of your patients better.” “Challenge yourself to step beyond your comfort zone, because the benefits of that can be significant if you're willing to try.” “Find a mentor and don't fear or stray away from the imposter syndrome. Use that as fuel.” “If you never ask the question, the answer is always no.” “Trying to do it all will keep you small.” “You have to really only say yes to things that align to your values.” “Take a step back, know who you are, know your values, know what your individual mission statement is.” “He who knows others is wise. He who knows himself is enlightened.” - Lao Tzu “If you don't have the capacity for it, then don't do it.” “Stay curious.” “Continue to search for the ‘why'. It's okay not to know.”   More about Bryan Guzski Bryan Guzski PT, DPT, OCS, MBA, CSCS, is an outpatient orthopaedic physical therapist practicing in Rochester, NY working primarily with patients with spine related issues and persistent pain. Bryan earned his Doctor of Physical Therapy degree from Ithaca College in 2014, completed an orthopaedic residency program through Cayuga Medical Center and received his Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist certification in 2015, and earned a Master of Business Administration degree from Simon Business School at the University of Rochester in 2021.   More about Tim Reynolds Tim Reynolds PT, DPT, OCS, CSCS, is a Clinical Assistant Professor of Anatomy & Physiology at Ithaca College and a part-time physical therapist practicing at Cayuga Medical Center in Ithaca, NY, where he predominately treats patients with spine or lower extremity impairments. Tim earned his Doctor of Physical Therapy degree from Ithaca College in 2014 and completed both his orthopaedic residency and spine fellowship through Cayuga Medical Center, and currently helps mentor and teach in both of these programs as well.    Suggested Keywords Healthy, Wealthy, Smart, Physiotherapy, Academia, Movers, Shakers, Mentors, Prioritizing, Self-care, Self-improvement, Values, Motivation,   To learn more, follow Bryan & Tim at: Website:          https://www.moversandmentors.com Twitter:            @moversmentors                         @timreynoldsdpt                    Facebook:       Movers and Mentors Instagram:       @moversandmentors                         @bryguzski                         @timreynolds10 LinkedIn:         Bryan Guzski                         Tim Reynolds                         Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  00:03 Hey, Brian and Tim, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you guys on to talk about movers and mentors. So welcome.   00:11 Thank you, Karen, thank you for having us today. We're sharing this sit down chat with you.   00:15 This is great, Karen, thank you so much.   00:17 Well, thank you guys for including me in your book with over 70 Other pretty illustrious folks in the Movement Science physical therapy world. So let's start with the basic question that I'm sure a lot of listeners want to know. What is the why behind the book?   00:40 Yeah. So Karen, Tim and I were going through residency orthopedic residency together. Back in 2015. We both graduated from Ithaca College in 2014. And we both entered into a residency program at ethika are in Ethica, in 2015. And as we were going through the coursework there, and kind of taking different classes and really kind of immersed in the PT literature and physical therapy, space and various different content. We started noticing a lot of reoccurring names and reoccurring themes. And so, you know, different names like Tim Flynn, Josh Cleveland, surely sermon, Stuart McGill, you know, all these all these names that, you know, names in our rehab space that I've done a lot of really cool things and have put out a lot of different research that that, you know, we follow to this day. So we started noticing those names. And Tim and I were also reading a book by Timothy Ferriss called Tools of Titans at the time. And we really liked that book. And we enjoyed it. We got a lot out of it. He interviews people like, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Oprah Winfrey. So various different industries and various different spaces. But we like the model that book and we started to ask ourselves, well, I wonder how, you know, individuals and movers and shakers within our industry would answer questions that we have. So fast forward two years. That was 2017 2018 at that point, and Tim and I started putting together a list of questions and a list of names. And at that point, you know, we kind of we kind of took it from there. And Tim has a little bit more info on how we how we came up with the names.   02:29 Yeah, so it's one of those things that we could have written a 5000 page book in regards to the movers and shakers within the physical therapy industry. And I think one of the most important things that Brian I have tried to stress is that this is a living project. This is not a one and done situation where there are movers and shakers that are currently developing and changing the practice. And so I think that's one of those things that, yes, there are people within the pages that I'm that are, we're happy to have there. But at the same time, there's so many other people would want to reach out to, and we look forward to have the opportunity to potentially talk to those individuals in the future, and are excited to see how does the profession change in the next five to 10 years and who are going to come up and literally shake the industry that we have the opportunity to be part of. And so as we started to go about this, like Brian said, we're diving into this literature, I had the opportunity to do spine fellowship after doing my orthopedic residency. And so the amount of Tim Flynn articles that I've read over the past three years was obnoxious. And so we started to make this almost like PT Dream Team, if you would, where we said okay, from, from a literature standpoint, who do we do we invest ourselves into a lot of, and like Brian mentioned, John John Childs, and we have Josh Cleveland. And then we have Tim Flynn, and the surely SARM and Gwendolyn Joel, there's these names that we have read multiple articles from and so kind of selfishly, we put together this list of people that we would really appreciate reaching out to, because we've been so invested in their in their literature over the past several years. And then from there, we kind of spread our net a little wider, because we had to see who's moving the industry from a clinical practice standpoint, right. So not necessarily from an academic or research standpoint, but from clinical practice. And who's moving it in regards to social media influencers? Because as someone who works in academia and works with the up and coming physical therapy generation, those are the people that they're following on Instagram and on Twitter, and so they're moving and shaking the industry in that format. And we looked at who's been guest speakers at recent conferences and who's putting out podcasts and how He was really trying to have the opportunity to get our profession to move in a positive direction. And so from there, we created this sort of master list, we reached out to all of them, and some have the opportunity to participate, which we're super thankful for. Some respectfully declined based on the fact that they had other stuff going on. But I think one of the things to remember, Brian is sort of given us timeframe, this was right pre pandemic, that we started to reach out to all these individuals. And what's been such a blessing is that we've been able to cast a wide net across multiple different countries across multiple different professions. But at the same time, we reach out to people in Australia, and there's Australian wildfires. And so we're trying to really respect individual's personal physical well being while navigating global pandemic while trying to also conduct interviews. And so it took us a little over two and a half years to be able to accumulate everything and be able to put everything out into a book format. But I'm super thankful to have those people within the pages. And like I said, I'm excited to have the opportunity to reach out to more in the future.   06:14 And so it takes, you know, a couple of years to get all this together. How did the two of you kind of keep the momentum going? Number one, because that's hard. And then number two, how did you kind of kind of temper your excitement and your expectations? Because I know, I'm the kind of person who's like, let's just get it done. Let's go, go go. But here, you know, you've really taken your time, over two plus years. So can you talk a little bit about that?   06:52 Yeah, I think from the outset, Tim and I both thought, I will send out some emails, you know, we'll get a handful of responses. It'll be a cool book, maybe we'll sell to maybe, you know, five, including our siblings, and parents, that sort of thing. And it really from the first batch of emails that we sent out, you know, Tim and I were really, every time we got a response, we would text each other, shoot each other an email immediately, Hey, Peter O'Sullivan responded, or David Butler responded, or Karen Litzy responded, you know, this is awesome. Like, we're actually doing this thing. So I think it you know, you spoke to momentum, Karen. And that's one thing that Tim and I, you know, we've never really hit a point where we were at a lack of that, or hit a dull moment, if you will. Because every time we got we did another interview, or we got another email, or we set up a, you know, maybe a podcast, it was definitely adding fuel to the fire. And, you know, they kept us pretty engaged and pretty excited throughout the whole thing. So, yeah, I mean, to I think if you asked us when we first sent out our emails in 2018, hey, you know, this is you're going to publish this in 2021, we'd say, No, it's going to be next year. And then life happens and pandemics happen and several other things. And, you know, it turned into a two and a half year project. But you know, it's been a lot of fun the whole time. And Tim and I still are still excited about it and excited about about the future, too.   08:16 And I think that's one of the things. There's kind of like Christmas every single time we had a response because it was super cool. You send out these, these emails, or you give a phone call to people that you've literally have had as your mentor from afar for years. And it's like, oh, my gosh, I cannot wait to have the opportunity to sit down. Like Peter, I saw that I've watched a lot of Peter softened videos from pain science standpoint, from spine fellowship work. And having the opportunity to sit down with Peter resolve them for an hour and 15 minutes was like, amazing. I was super stoked. And so so all those opportunities to talk to these people definitely continue to keep flame burning. And at the same time you talk about how do we sort of balance that, that excitement and try not to do too much too quickly. Brian and I have known each other for years, this has been such an amazing project to be able to find a partner that you want appreciate and to after two and a half years don't hate. So I think that's like a really good thing. And I think we balance each other out very well, where we're both skilled in a variety different formats. And then at the same time, after reading your draft manuscript, probably like five times through and through, you really do not want to read one more time. And there's points where we're like, I think it's good. I think we just just push it out, call it a day. And then Brian could probably agree that I'd say well, let's just read through it one more time, and then you catch one or two small mistakes. And so I think it's one of those things that just finding the right person that's willing to invest and stay motivated to push you and challenge you From an entrepreneurial standpoint, from a business standpoint, your partner is is everything. And so I think that's been one of the blessings that we've had this for this project.   10:11 Yeah, I love it, I think that's great advice is to have that person who complements you. Right and because you don't want to have just like a yes person, but instead you want something that's going to complement you and push you in, in a positive direction. And, and I will second the Peter O'Sullivan, he is just what a nice person and giving and charitable and gosh, I had an interview with him at CSM a number of years ago. And I had to ticket it. Because it was live at CSM. And we actually had to ticket it so that only 25 people could go and I it was only for students. And by the end of the interview, he was laying on the ground, you know, students and stuff. It was just so it was such a great experience, because he's just one of those very kind of electric personalities.   11:08 Definitely. very warm, very electric.   11:10 Yeah. Were there any interviews that you did that surprised you?   11:20 Um, in   11:21 a, in any way that doesn't have to be good or bad. Just surprise you because perhaps the persona that this person has, whether it be their research, social media clinical that you thought they had, and then when you interviewed them? It it surprised you?   11:46 Yeah, I would say. Obviously, when you when you interview over 75 individuals, you get a variety of different responses, you talk to a variety of different personas, devided different characteristics. And I think going into it, knowing the background of someone's, I use the metaphor of like the front cover of a book, we all have like front cover worthy attributes or accomplishments. And then it's like, well, what's on the inside of those pages. And so we see everybody's bio, and I've been on X, Y, and Z shows or published this many papers and, and so we see all that stuff. But we never really hear some of those people talk or talk personally about some of their successes and some of their failures. And so I think everybody had the opportunity to have some elements of surprise. But I think what was also cool as Brian, I made up this master list, and it was basically just based off of accomplishments and achievements, or their influence on the profession. And so, for instance, I was looking through and like talking to Michael Radcliffe, who is who is a researcher that I've read your research, but I, I never really pictured what you would look like. And I never really perceived that you would have such amazing responses within this book. So I think it was those individuals that I might not have been so invested from like falling on social media, or have watched your YouTube videos, and really getting a chance to know them in an hour, hour and a half. Those were the interviewers that really caught me by surprise, but at the same time, I think I walked away with so much more, because there is so much unknown that they're willing to offer me. Um, and so I think I think that was the most exciting part or the most surprising part for me.   13:42 Yeah, I think kind of, because of the types of questions that we asked, we really intimidate joke about this, if we want to know, you know, surely Simon's recommendations for motor control. We can find that online. We can we can Google that. Right? If we want to know, you know how David Butler opens his pain talks, we can probably find that somewhere and explain pain or explain pain Supercharged. But you know, how Heidi genetica who's the CEO of versio Excuse me? Why pte how she structures her day. And what her favourite failure is it those are things that you can't find you can't find that in textbook you can't find that online. So the types of questions that we asked really opened, opened it up to knowing these people from a different perspective, which we thought was pretty cool. I'd say that one of the individuals that really stands out in my mind, Tim actually did this interview, but I transcribe it so I got to listen to everything, literally word for word was Stanley Paris, who's one of the founding fathers of orthopaedic manual physical therapy and then the United States and North America for that matter. And I mean, this guy is is just incredible from sailing around the world to swimming the English Channel to founding St. Augustine to being, you know, a founder and president of various organizations like the guy has done it all to owning a winery or several wineries. I believe he's just, you know, a jack of all trades. And I think listening to that interview, I was like, you know, he's, I think 83 Now, and my jaw was dropped to some of the some of his answers and some of his experiences. So that was, that was really cool. But, I mean, we had so many so many great interviews, Jeff Moore was a terrific interviewer. Peter O'Sullivan, like we talked about Kelly star it gave, you know, exceptional answers. So we were really, really lucky. And, you know, positively surprised, I should say, surprise, in a positive way with with all of our guests.   15:55 Yeah. And it it, it does kind of, like an education for you. Right,   16:02 definitely. Yeah. 110% Yeah, I mean, it was one of those things. I had the opportunity to speak with Michael shacklock. Um, and such a well spoken. Such a thoughtful, mindful person. And back in residency, Brian Knight did some research with neurodynamics and your mobilizations. As I was like, Oh, my gosh, like, you're the Dude, that was like, given us all this information. And now we have the opportunity to actually speak to the source. So I think back to being like eight or nine years old, and have all these posters of Major League Baseball players up on the walls, and just like, thinking about how cool it was to have their pictures, and to think about what it would be like to play baseball with them. And now to be able to communicate with some of these movers and shakers within the industry, and have them be peers, and be able to carry out a conversation with them learn from us as much as we're learning from them in that conversation is just such a rewarding opportunity.   17:08 And do you feel like it has changed your clinical practice at all? How you are with patients? Did any of the answers or just even the interactions with some of these folks change the change the way you practice? Um,   17:24 I think yes. I would say I've slowed down, and I'm more intentional. Just based on a few, I guess, specific responses, but one that comes to mind is oh, shoot, pause. This might be a Karen, you might have to take this this out. And then wait,   17:48 wait, wait a mess up. Or 25? I   17:50 know. We were crushing it. Dude. Millet mark. I don't know. I want to say more. Mark Milligan. So we'll jump back in. Yes, I would say more mindful and intentional. And I've slowed down in my practice, one response, or several responses from Mark Milligan definitely kind of changed the way I think and operate within the clinic. And I've definitely tried to be more intentional and kind of think about my thinking a little bit more in the clinic from a specific, you know, tactical exercise prescription perspective, not so much. Because that wasn't really the focus of our book. But just, you know, Mark's mindset, and kind of his, his recommendation to all young professionals to really kind of invest in themselves and to take care of themselves mentally and physically so that you can take care of your patients better, I thought was really powerful. So yeah, I'd say, a little bit more intentional, focused, and I've slowed down.   19:00 Yeah. And I think sort of piggybacking off of what Brian was saying, less so about the actual clinical approach to what sort of treatments are you providing? And I think that was one of the the most exciting things about the book was we were not talking about what's your favorite three exercises for X y&z Because there's so much saturation, I'd say from a social media standpoint, which is great. I think that's one of the things that's challenging the profession, that anybody has the opportunity to put out content, and it's one of the curses of the profession that anybody has the opportunity to put out content. And so I think the opportunity for young graduates and PT students, and individuals interested in the Movement Science field that is sift through a lot of information to be able to find out what is truly valuable for them. And like Brian was saying, These are the answers questions that aren't necessarily within a textbook, but also probably not necessarily on people's social media channels also, right? No one really steps up to the plate and says, you know that one time when it took me three tries again to PT, school, Dad was really a good important point in time, my life, or, yeah, I remember when I failed the boards. Those are things that I think can really influence and the sort of career life changing for these individuals, who, as a current college professor, writing final exams, getting ready to watch by an influx of tears in my office in the next bout 48 hours, who perceive a failure as such a detriment to their potential growth, and well being as a person, I got a B plus on this test, all my friends got A's, I cannot necessarily navigate that situation. That's like conversation that I hear all the time. And so talking about how has things changed in my practice, I'm currently part time in the clinic, more time from an academia standpoint. So I think it's changed my communication opportunities, with the next generation, being able to literally use this book as an encyclopedia. And knowing the responses that people have given flipping to their name, and saying, I need you to read this chapter from Mike Reinhold, where he talks about becoming an expert, because you're not there yet. Because you shouldn't be there yet. Because you haven't gained clinical judgment and clinical experience. And it's going to be okay. But go read this come back in five minutes. And so I think that's how I've been able to sort of benefit from this, from this experience and how I've taken it influenced my own practice.   21:51 Excellent. And, and as a side note, Tim, the, my podcast episode coming out tomorrow, my podcast is with Silvia Zubaan. And she's a clinician 50% clinician 50% academia at St. Louis University in Washington, Washington University in St. Louis. Sure. And surely, sermons. Yeah. And it was a really nice conversation on how to navigate. She's been doing it for 15 years now. clinician and academia and academia. So it was a really nice, really wonderful conversation on how to navigate that those two worlds successfully and how to be vulnerable when you need to be and with whom, and because it can't always be great and perfect, like you just said. So if you have a chance, I would come out tomorrow, I would listen, I'm excited. Currently to edit this part out. I don't need to plug my own podcast within a podcast. He was a little self indulgent. But because you, you're kind of in a similar position. She's just been doing it for a lot longer.   23:10 That's awesome. I appreciate that. So   23:11 check it out tomorrow. It was really, like, such a good conversation. She's super cool. She should be in your next book. There. Yeah, like it. She's super cool. Yes, Silvia it's CZ you PP o n. Yeah. And she does some research and and she's written some papers and things like that, but she's super cool. Okay. So, um, is there anything? Before we sort of flipped this a little bit? Because I know you guys were like, Hey, would you like to expand on some of your answers, which, you know, is fine. So we'll flip this in, in a bit. And I'll have you guys host and I'll be your guest. But before we do that, is there anything else kind of about the process of of compiling and publishing the book, that you would love people to know, because it made such a big difference in your lives?   24:23 I think one of the blessings of our profession is the lat orality component to your growth as an entrepreneur, but also as a professional. We graduate with a clinical doctorate, or and this can be transcribed across multiple professions, but you go to school to be able to learn how to learn right and in our profession where you sit for a board certification, which gives us the opportunity to practice as a clinician within that. You can wear multiple different hats and I think what was nice with this is That title allowed for us to speak to a variety of different people and have this mutual commonality, which was physical therapy, or Movement Science or the treatment of individuals with certain pathologies. And I think this would never have happened if we didn't make ourselves vulnerable and uncomfortable. Because who are Brian and I? And why should we have the opportunity to talk to Karen Litzy? Or why should we have the opportunity to talk to David Butler? Or why should in so we had this idea, and it all stemmed from the courage to be able to reach out and ask because you never know, unless you try. And so I think sharing one of these thoughts with your listeners is, I think we all have dreams and aspirations that are slightly beyond our scope of practice. And sometimes we can limit that opportunity for us to navigate those ideas, because we are either potentially afraid of failure, or just don't know what the outcome is going to be. And so since that's an unfamiliar territory, we just assume, and therefore we never attempt. And so I think the one of the best things that I've learned from this is accepting failure for what it is, what's the worst that they're going to say? No, I do not want to be part of this, thank you for the opportunity. And the best thing that we could do is create a relationship, create a mentorship opportunity, and have sort of this professional friendship that stemmed from a cold call email. And so I would, I would recommend, at least my thoughts would be challenged, challenge yourself to step beyond your comfort zone, because the benefits of that can be significant if you're if you're willing to try.   27:02 Yeah, Brian, right. Yeah.   27:04 Yeah, I think there's some level of kind of normalization of failure and imposter syndrome within this book. And I think when you dive into it, and you dive into the responses, everyone has been there, everyone, I'm speaking to, you know, students, new graduates, young professionals here, but guess the message kind of spans anyone in any part of the PT space or industry with however many years of experience, you know, everyone's felt that level of imposter syndrome, or, or fear of failure, and the kind of ability to, to kind of push through that, overcome that and almost use that and leverage it to, to push further or overcome obstacles is really powerful. So I think of it like if you're ever kind of at the top of a mountain, in terms of, you know, imposter syndrome, if we look at it, like, like a curve or like a mountain, if you're at the top of it, then you know, what's really driving you and what's what's pushing you forward, if you're kind of somewhere along along the line on the slope, then you have some level of uncertainty, some level of fear, or some level level of imposter syndrome, and that's actually going to feel fuel you to learn more and be better be more effective. And again, one of the main themes of this book was finding a mentor and the importance of that and how valuable that can be in any, any track or any, you know, facet of our profession. So kind of find that person that's doing something similar or doing exactly what you want to be doing. And, you know, don't hesitate to reach out to them. Because we're in the, we're in the business of helping people and thankfully, we have a lot of professionals around us that that want to help other people but also want to help you know, students, young professionals, so don't hesitate to reach out. I think you'll be surprised with with, you know, the the feedback or the the return on that. So, definitely, definitely find a mentor and, you know, don't don't fear stray, stray away from the imposter syndrome use that as fuel.   29:20 Yes. And I will say I got a piece of advice several years ago from a fellow physical therapist, son. So her name's Cecily de Stefano. She's a physical therapist outside of DC. And we were in Chicago for a one night q&a With Lorimer Moseley. And the next day, we were walking around, she had her five year old six year old somewhere around there, young son with her, and she was sort of walking up ahead and he was walking Next to me, and he said this, Karen, would you like to have a play date? And I said, Well, I don't. I don't have any children. And he was like, no, just you. And I said, Oh, um, okay, well, I think we should probably ask your mom first. And then he gave me a great piece of advice. He said, Yeah, because if you never asked the question, the answer is always no. And I was like, and I said, that's the best piece of advice I've gotten in years, and you're like, five. So just to begin with what you guys said, If you never ask the question, the answer is always no. And I've never forgotten that, since he said that. And so now I just always add, ask the question, because the worst that can happen is it's no and so okay, you move on. But you never know. Unless you try. Okay, so true. So let's, uh, we'll start wrapping things up here. But now I, again, thank you for including me in this book. It's a real honor. So if you want if you guys have any questions to I guess I can expand upon or, you know, anything else that that may be? I don't know, you go ahead. Talk about being out of your comfort zone. Go ahead. And you asked me, I'll hand the mic over to you guys. And I'll see, we'll see what we can do here.   31:21 Sure. Karen, thank you, again, for being a part of this. I really liked your response. We were speaking about failure a little bit before. And I really liked your response on failure in the last comment, here you have, I'll read it right from the book, it says, failure has taught me to be more introspective to have an open mind to trust in others more. And to know that in the end, it will all work out the way it is supposed to. I was wondering if you could expand on the to trust in others more? Do you have a specific example that you're thinking of, or examples, or just, you know, have other people come in at really important times to help you out when you're, you know, in a in a, you know, event of a failure?   32:07 Well, I can't think of one person or one incident in particular, but what I will say is, I am personality type a driver. So someone who likes to get things done, who likes to be in the driver's seat who I don't need help, I don't need help, I can do it on my own, I can do it on my own. And as a result, I think that yeah, I've had failures, because I tried to do it all by myself. And it just doesn't work. You know. And so there's a great team building exercise called lost at sea. Google it, I won't go into detail as to what exactly it is. But you have to you fill out. They give you a list of things that maybe you need when you're lost at sea, and you fill them out what you think you would need from one to 15 or 16 or something like that. So you do it on your own. And then you you do it as a group? And then you find out, like, did you do better on your own? Or did you do better when you had someone helping you? And better meaning like, did you survive? lost at sea? Or were you eaten by sharks? Right? And time and time again, and the group that I did it with? Everybody did better with the group. Right? And so for me, and I learned that I took the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business program, and it was part of that program. And the big part of that program is learning how to be part of a team and learning how to have people around you that make you better. And so I think my biggest failures came because I didn't ask for help. Because I always thought no, no, I can do this on my own, or I can handle this and quite frankly, I couldn't. And so it resulted in a failure resulted in a less than optimal outcome. It resulted in stress on me and and perhaps some mental and emotional anguish, when in fact, I could have just had a team around me ask for help. And that task probably would have been done better than if it's just me and so yeah, I always so when I said that line, I didn't have one particular person or event in mind, but rather that like sometimes you have to like suck it up, you know, and admit that you can't do things and it's okay. It's just part of life. Like I had interviewed a woman Her name's Stephanie Nikolaj and she said you know trying to do it all will keep you small and she's right. You know, you can it's hard to grow as a person as an entrepreneur as a clinician, my God if you just did everything I Your Own I mean, you'd be like, I don't know you'd stop growing from the day you graduated from college right from your PT program. So you you need the these people around you need people around you, who can lift you up and and make you a better person, a better clinician, a better entrepreneur, whatever it is. But you'll never be that evolved person if you're on your own, it's just impossible.   35:26 Yeah, I think, Karen, like the number of hats that you wear as a business owner, a podcast as a volunteer and advocate, right? You, you kind of need people like that in your ecosystem, and it for so many projects, and especially the bigger the project, it really does take a village, and you need people that specialize in certain aspects to come together as a team. You know, Tim and I have talked about this kind of checking, checking your ego at the door sometimes and just kind of leaving that, as you said, Karen, you know, kind of admit that you can't, you can't accomplish it all by yourself. So I that was a that was a really great answer. And, you know, I think you spoke to some of the points about being more introspective and having having an open mind as well.   36:09 Yeah, and being able to trust people, clearly, I have trust issues. But you know, I think finding like, like you guys said, like you found each other, you knew each other for many years, you have this really nice trust and bond. And I don't know, maybe it's like 20 years in New York has made me a cynical New Yorker or something. You know, but really finding those people that you can connect and trust that they have your back and you'll have theirs. I think it's really important.   36:37 I think, another question that I would have just to sort of elaborate on, obviously, we have a variety of individuals that are listening, right now clinicians, non clinicians, entrepreneurs, and one of the questions that we asked within the book is, what advice would you give to a smart driven college student or a young professional entering the quote unquote, real world? And I think one of the things that you mentioned, that was really valuable was that it is easy to say yes to everything, when you believe it will further your career, I would advise you to only say yes, the opportunities that align with your values and goals, as the saying goes, saying yes to one thing is saying no to something that might be a better fit. I think that's really powerful. Because I think we're in a society of more is better, or the perception that doing more is better. So knowing knowing who is listening to this and having the microphone if you would, for for a minute baseline question. Can you elaborate on that? Or if you had to give that sort of monumentous speech regarding that topic? I think that can be really valuable for a variety different people this?   37:48 Yeah. And I think that saying that saying yes to everything, or only saying yes to things that align with your values? I mean, yes, you have to really only say yes to things that align to your values. But I think that speaks to speak to that 30,000 foot view of society in general, and of social media and what we're seeing everyone else do, right, so you may scroll through your Instagram or Twitter, Facebook, Tik Tok, whatever it is, you're on. And you may say, Well, gosh, this person just, they wrote another article, or Gosh, this person speaking here, and they're doing this and they're starting an app, and they're, they've got a podcast, and how come I'm not doing all that? Should I be doing all of that, so I should be set? Why, you know, I need to be doing XY and Z and, and, you know, you've got that, that FOMO disease, you know, your fear of missing out, and then you bombard yourself with things that you think you should be doing because other people are doing them. But it's not even something you believe in, but you think you should believe in it? Because Because other people in the profession are doing it and look at how many followers they have, or, or look at all the success and I use that in quotation marks because we don't really know someone's true success out on social media, right? Because we only put the good stuff on social media, you're not going to put the shitty stuff on social media, right? And so I think this saying yes to everything. I think a lot of it is based on societal pressures, what you're seeing on social media, maybe what a colleague or someone that graduated with you like, oh my gosh, they already started their own practice. And I didn't do that yet. So I guess I have to do that. And I have to say yes to this, that the other thing and it's, I think you really have to especially now like take a step back. Know who you are, know your values know, know your what your individual mission statement is, right? I know you guys said you have a mission statement for your book, but I would challenge everyone like you have your own mission statement as whether it's a clinician or you're in academia. But really you have to know deep down what your values are, what you're willing to take and what you're not willing to take, and, and really know yourself in a very deep, meaningful way. And I'm not saying I know myself in a deep meaningful way yet, but I'm trying, right? It doesn't mean and again, it doesn't mean you have to know that. So again, that's another thing people think, Oh, I have to do this now. But you know, in researching a talk for CSM that I'm actually doing with how do you Janemba my, the part of my talk is increasing your self awareness as an entrepreneur, and how do you do that, and I came across a really great quote, he who knows others, as wise, He who knows himself as enlightened by louts Lao Tzu, la Otz, you I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. And I saw that quote, and I thought, Oh, that's so perfect, right. Because as, as clinicians, and as physical therapists, our job is to get to know the patient in front of us or the student in front of us or whoever it is in front of you that oftentimes, I think we give away big parts of ourselves without taking it back and looking inward.   41:16 And so you kind of get this like, drain on your empathy, and your energy goes on as the day goes on. And I think that happens a lot. And in these kind of giving professions that we are in, whether you're a professor or a clinician, or even a researcher, right, you're going to give all of your energy to that. And then you see you're always looking outwardly all day. And do you take the time to come back at the end of the day and look at yourself inward? And say, Well, what, what am I doing? Like, why am I doing this? Am I doing it for the likes? Or to get more followers? Or like, what is your goal? Right? And so I think that's kind of where that saying no to things comes in, if you know, your why behind what why you're doing things. It will make it easier for you to say yes, and to say no, because it's going to align with with who you are. But that takes time, you know, so as a new as a student, or a new professional, maybe you do have that all figured out. And if you do awesome, come on the podcast, let's talk about it. How did you do it, but you know, if it takes time, and you have to kind of find your groove and, and really know, where you want your career to be headed. And some people do know that right off the bat, I didn't. But it doesn't mean that other people don't have a very clear path of where they want their career in life to go. You know. And, and there's obviously that changes here and there. But I think that's what I meant by that, quote is looking for those opportunities is to really know yourself, and what your How much are you willing to take? How much capacity do you have for XYZ? And if you don't have the capacity for it, then don't do it? Because it's going to be done like half assed, you know, and nobody wants   43:19 nothing. That's great. Yeah, great advice. Yeah, finding, finding your why and staying true to your why and finding things that that sort of line up with that to allow for you to not have that emotional, physiological draining. If you would find things that fill your cup not not dump your cup out.   43:37 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's a nice way to put it.   43:42 Um, yeah. So Karen, thank you so much for, you know, kind of expanding and elaborating on some of those. You know, as Tim and I mentioned in the, in the beginning, I think when we were chatting probably before we were recording, Tim, and I want to probably get a podcast started at some point in the future. And, you know, we'd love for you to come on and be one of our guests, so we can talk more about this stuff.   44:06 Yeah, I'd be happy to. And now before we wrap things up here, where can people find you guys? Where can they get the book? Let's go. Go ahead. The floor is yours.   44:18 So we have a website. The website is movers and mentors calm on there is all of our social media information and links directly to Amazon where you can find both our Kindle version and paperback version. If you have questions, comments, please tag us send us stuff on social media. Tim and I love that we you know, we've been very fortunate we've had really engaged you know, an engaged audience up until this point and so you know, we're looking or looking for more of that and shoot us an email if you want and with with comments or feedback. We love to hear that as well.   45:00 Great. And how about where can people find you on social media? Oh, yeah. Yeah,   45:08 it's in those that thing tendons got our handles there.   45:11 Yeah. So my, you can message me on Instagram. But Tim Reynolds DPP would be my thing. That's my Twitter routes, and would be my Instagram. And we'll send you that Karen. So you can sort of tag along for the podcast. But I like Brian was saying, I think the opportunity to interact with our, with our audience is one of the most exciting things, getting somebody that reading the book from South America and is so excited to receive the book is one of the highlights of our day. And I think having the opportunity to have our our audience also send us Who do they think should be the movers and shakers in our potential upcoming volumes of this would be something that we'd really appreciate. There's so many people within the profession that we do not know of yet. And so obviously, appreciate having their insight and input in that as well.   46:08 So I'm at at Bryan, Bryan, Gaskey, and Instagram and then we're at movers and mentors, both on Instagram and Twitter.   46:16 Perfect. And all of that will be in the show notes at podcasts at healthy, wealthy, smart, calm. So before we wrap up, what is question I asked everyone, what advice would you give to your younger self? So let's say fresh out of PT school at Ithaca? What advice would you give yourself?   46:36 I would tell myself, stay curious. Because I find that when I'm curious and asking questions, that means I'm engaged. And I think engagement. If it aligns with your your purpose and your passion, then you have kind of all three things in alignment. And that, you know, lends itself to a happy, fruitful and hopefully, you know, effective career.   47:05 Excellent. Tim, go ahead.   47:08 And I would say sort of piggybacking off what we were talking about earlier, Aaron would be continue to search for the why. And it's okay not to know. And I think that's one of those things where finding your why and staying true to the values is one of those things I'll add to life journey, continue to search for that throughout the lifespan. But I think actively checking back to is this lining up with my Why would be one of the things that I would want to do, either from a journal reflecting standpoint, or just from like a quarterly check in. But then also, the acceptance of it's okay, not to know not necessarily not to know what your y is, but not to know certain things in part of your life. Um, and I think being 20 to 2324 and try to navigate your 20s. And I'm thinking that everybody in that sort of FOMO aspect is having the solutions and answers. And it is okay that you do not know yet you are enough, you will be enough, challenge yourself and have the opportunity to allow for that growth and expansion.   48:23 You guys, that is great advice. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your book. Again. It's movers and mentors, and it's available on amazon.com. Go to their website, go to the social media. Everything again is that podcast out healthy, wealthy, smart, calm. One click, we'll take you to any thing you need for both Brian and Tim. So thank you so much, guys, for coming on.   48:49 Thanks for having us, Karen. Yeah, thank you, Karen.   48:53 Pleasure and everyone. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

Demystifying Gay Porn
Special Guest: Adam Zmith, Author of Deep Sniff: The History of Poppers and Queer Futures

Demystifying Gay Porn

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 10, 2021 46:33


While researching poppers one day, I thought, "Gosh, wouldn't it be great if someone just wrote an informative, comprehensive and witty a book about them." Author Adam Zmith, did just that. I literally took a week off of work to bunker down and read Deep Sniff so I could share this interview.  Poppers, known technically as amyl nitrates or "VCR cleaner," more recently, are the subject at hand in Deep Sniff, historically being used to treat Angina and other ailments long before becoming the party drug many know and love. Zmith articulately guides the conversation, from the creation of poppers, its recreational use in the 60's and 70's, the decline of use and stigma during the AIDS epidemic and its resurgence in not only queer nightlife but mainstream culture in general. Enjoy!

The Borealis Experience
ep.2 abusing yourself into feeling happy and healthy

The Borealis Experience

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 9, 2021 17:41


Todays episode I'll publish in a couple hours and for the first time I'm nervous It's cause I care too much I guess Abusing yourself to health and happiness I've been waiting for a long time to publish this episode and today is the day I'm the kind of person who is guilty of using excessive exercising , food choices/ restriction and self isolation as a way to punish myself into health and wellness, am I ? Yes I was… Gosh writing this out makes me sweat already but this is how I approached being healthy in the past and I'm paying the bill right now I want to inspire people to have a more loving relationship with their bodies/ with themselves and using exercise as a way of expressing yourself , enjoying yourself , taking care of yourself rather than throwing weights through the gym and feeling the intensity of self destructive “ beast mode”. Honour your body ! This little sentence used to trigger the hell out of me because of the deep self rejection I held within my chest Today I can say I'm doing better My body is becoming my strongest Allie and also not caring about how people judge my body heals a lot thanks to my dad for introducing me to the Beatles when I was 3 years old https://www.facebook.com/RingoStarr?__cft__[0]=AZXe9k7yhDzVB6tequdd4YJ4oy9MI_yW0EA4czJc9vvGxtQADUtIc7JMDgTd9TV4r1_U2q32PIBYZH0phiQPF9ZowganTqmshUifLvOW5PsnFtzb3gPprH7v__yoSwLK2gtrJHKXY9TK2mN8p1M02uOJ&__tn__=-]K-R (Ringo Starr) https://www.facebook.com/PaulMcCartney?__cft__[0]=AZXe9k7yhDzVB6tequdd4YJ4oy9MI_yW0EA4czJc9vvGxtQADUtIc7JMDgTd9TV4r1_U2q32PIBYZH0phiQPF9ZowganTqmshUifLvOW5PsnFtzb3gPprH7v__yoSwLK2gtrJHKXY9TK2mN8p1M02uOJ&__tn__=-]K-R (Paul McCartney) My dance moves haven't changed much since then but today I can say I enjoy my body like a playful 5 year old again ❤️‍

Skip the Queue
You can't furlough a Penguin. Experiences from the last 19 months at the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland

Skip the Queue

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 8, 2021 40:36


Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcastIf you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.Competition ends April 29th 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: https://www.edinburghzoo.org.uk/https://www.rzss.org.uk/support/https://www.highlandwildlifepark.org.uk/we-are-open https://twitter.com/Lisa_Robshawhttps://twitter.com/EdinburghZoohttps://twitter.com/HighlandWPark David Field, Royal Zoological Society of Scotland (RZSS) CEO, returned to RZSS in 2020 having been a section moderator at Edinburgh Zoo early in his career. David's previous roles include chief executive of the Zoological Society of East Anglia, zoological director of the Zoological Society of London (ZSL), curator of ZSL Whipsnade Zoo and assistant director of Dublin Zoo. An honorary professor of the Royal Veterinary College, David has served as chairman of the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquaria (BIAZA) and is the current president of the Association of British and Irish Wild Animal Keepers. Lisa Robshaw is a visitor attraction marketing specialist with 20 years' experience of working in the tourism and hospitality industry after studying International Tourism at the University of Lincoln. She joined the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland (RZSS)  in August 2019 after a brief stint agency side. Prior to this she has worked for Historic Environment Scotland, Continuum Attractions and British Tourist Authority (Now Visit Britain).As Head of Marketing and Sales at RZSS, Lisa leads the teams responsible for the wildlife conservation charity's marketing, sales activity, membership, adoptions, events and experiences . No day is ever the same and what she enjoys most is sharing the amazing experiences Edinburgh Zoo and Highland Wildlife Park have to offer and telling people about the important work RZSS does to protect threatened species in Scotland and around the world .  When she's not working, Lisa can usually be found chasing after her young family and planning visits to the south coast of England from where she originally hails! Transcription:Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host Kelly Molson. Each episode I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with David Field, CEO, and Lisa Robshaw, Head of Marketing and Sales, at the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland. We discuss the zoo's experiences over the pandemic, highs, lows, and why you really can't furlough a penguin. If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.Kelly Molson: Lisa and David, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I'm really looking forward to speaking to you both.Lisa Robshaw: Yeah, looking forward to speaking to you. It should be good fun.Kelly Molson: Well, let's see how we get on with the icebreaker questions, and see how much fun it is going to be.David Field: Yeah. I'm dreading this.Kelly Molson: I've been quite kind to you both, actually, I feel because we've got two of you today and we've got a lot to cram in. So what is the worst food you've ever eaten and why isn't it peas?Lisa Robshaw: Oh my God. I think it was snails for me. And it was when I was 12, in France. So that probably doesn't help. So we're talking like 1990, giving away my age now. And we're in this awful school canteen on this French exchange trip, we were forced to eat these snails. We weren't rude to our hosts. I don't actually think they were cooked particularly well because I think some of us were ill afterwards.Kelly Molson: Oh gosh.Lisa Robshaw: The texture, the smell, the whole experience.David Field: Yeah. I adore snails and I adore peas. I'm not sure your listeners would particularly want to hear about my adventures when we've been out on ... doing field work in Indonesia, some of the things that we had out there. But we did have to eat animals which were hunted and caught, and we ate. And they were kind of animals, which suffice to say, had a very strong aroma about them. So you're in the jungles, you're surviving, and it was not nice. But it was the aroma of their scent glands which permeated the meat.Kelly Molson: Oh Gosh. Yeah. I'm getting a really lovely ... a lovely image of that, David. Thank you.David Field: It makes celebrity in the jungle thing a walk in the park.Kelly Molson: You were the real celeb. Get me out of here.David Field: I really wanted to get out of there.Kelly Molson: Okay. Brilliant. Thank you. Okay. To both of you, if you could have an extra hour of free time every day, how would you use that free time?David Field: I would do more moth hunting. I like trapping moths and counting moths. And I never get a chance in a morning to do that. So that's what I would do, every single day if I could.Kelly Molson: Moth hunting, can we just elaborate on this? So this is a hobby of yours?David Field: Yeah. Yeah. You just hunt ... and butterflies. It's amazing. It's the best thing in the world. And you just ... every night you set at this light trap and moths are attracted to it at night. And then you get in there in the morning, first thing in the morning, and you've got all these hundreds of different species of moths, and it's just the most beautiful thing. They are the most gorgeous thing that we never think about that just roam our gardens. And I'd do that every day if I could.Kelly Molson: Oh wow. I honestly have never heard anyone have that as a hobby before. That's something completely new for me. How lovely.David Field: Yeah. Try it.Kelly Molson: This is why I ask these questions. You never know what you're going to get. What about your unpopular opinions?Lisa Robshaw: Harry Potter books should not be read by adults. They are a children's book.Kelly Molson: Oh. I mean, no one can see my face because this is a podcast. So if you're not watching the video it's ... Gosh.Lisa Robshaw: But I don't know what it is. I remember when Harry Potter came out. Again, I'm aging myself here. I was at university and I didn't understand why people were going mental. And then I think right about the time of ... in the middle of it all, they re-released the same book with a different cover to appeal to adults. And I was like, that is wrong. You're ripping people off. It's a children's book. That's what I talk about. No, no, no.Kelly Molson: I am quite shocked by that. I love the Harry Potter books.Lisa Robshaw: I'm sure they're great. I've tried reading them. I just ... they're not for me.Kelly Molson: What about the films? Fan? Not bothered?Lisa Robshaw: I kind of class those as a sort of Boxing Day, fall asleep in front of it after a few glasses of red wine type of film. Anything that keeps the kids' kids quiet for two and a half hours. You know what I mean? It's that kind of thing. But I just don't ... I mean, this is ironic that I've been to a Castle and done the broomstick riding three times and my kids, and it's a brilliant experience. But like grown adults losing their minds over it, I just don't get it.Kelly Molson: Oh my God. Well, David, I don't know, can you top that for an unpopular opinion? I'm not sure.David Field: Well first off, who's Harry Potter?Kelly Molson: What are you doing to me, David?David Field: So perhaps this segues a little bit into talking about the visitor attractions and that type of stuff, but mobile phones should be banned at visitor attractions because it's about family time.Kelly Molson: Oh, that's a bit serious.David Field: I really do think they should be banned from visitor attractions.Kelly Molson: I can see where you're going with that. Yeah. Like being present, not on your phones, not looking for the opportunity to be on your phone, but just being present with your family. I get that.David Field: Yeah. Yeah.Kelly Molson: Oh, this is ... isn't it really interesting though. But from the perspective of being a CEO of an attraction, wouldn't you want people to be engaged with the stuff that you have there so that they share that on social media, so that then drives more people to come?David Field: They can do that when they go home. They can do that on their way there. They can do that every time. When they're in, and particularly when they're in the zoo, we want them to be engaged with nature, we want them to be there in front of them, not encasing them in some sort of cloak of electronic gadgetry, putting these barriers between them and nature and putting the barriers between them and their family. Live in the moment, not on your phone.Kelly Molson: Oh, what a great quote. Okay. Listeners, I really ... well, I want to hear what you've got to say about both of those unpopular opinions. Thank you for sharing. Okay. I was going to ask you what you do in your roles. But I think from your job titles, it's probably pretty obvious to people, especially the people that are listening to this. So I thought I'd actually ask you if each of you could tell me what your favourite thing is about the zoo or the wildlife park?Lisa Robshaw: It's like choosing a favourite child, isn't it?Kelly Molson: I've only got one, so it's really easy.Lisa Robshaw: Yeah. Highland Wildlife Park. For me, it's the expanse and the fresh air. I mean, I'm a city girl. I'm originally from Portsmouth. I've lived in New York and all this kind of thing, and I've lived in Edinburgh for 20 years now, but ... or 15 years. But when you get up to Highland Wildlife Park in the beautiful Cairngorms and it's just the fresh air and the space, and even when the park's busy, it's almost still silent. Do you know what I mean? It's just this sort of really relaxing place. When I get the chance not to be sitting in meetings all day, as is the danger sometimes when you're on the kind of hamster wheel of working and that kind of thing. So I love getting up there and just spending time and relaxing and enjoying the surroundings.Kelly Molson: Great answer.Lisa Robshaw: That's my professional point of view. I mean, the animals are amazing, and asking me to pick my favourite animal is always a difficult one. Red panda, but ... penguin. Now see, that's the problem. But yeah, that's mine.Kelly Molson: I love it. David, what about yours?David Field: So, as part of my job ... and I've been knocking around this zoo world since I was 12 years old. So for me, it really is about the animals and the beauty and that connection with the animals. And as part of my job now, I insist that I have a couple of hours ... an hour or so in the day that I go pottering around the zoo. And zoo directors need to potter around their zoo. Because every day, every different hour of the day, every season, there is something different going on. There's a different animal, doing something different, something exciting. And my favourite animal changes each day. But I go out and because the zoo and the wildlife park are so different, every single time you go around, that's what makes them so amazing and beautiful and inspiring and glorious, and why I've been doing this for 30 odd years.Kelly Molson: Oh, perfect answer. I love that you're just pottering around, just having a little walk around your zoo, just checking out the animals. It's really nice. I'd like to do that. There you go. And I'd like to spend my hour pottering around the zoo if I got my extra hour. Thank you both. So the title of this podcast episode is You can't furlough a penguin. Experiences from the last 19 months at the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland.Kelly Molson: Now, I was at the Visitor Attractions Conference a little while ago, back in October and you can't furlough a penguin was something that I heard Bernard Donoghue say while he was given one of his very fantastic talks, as always. And I thought, that's a great podcast title. I'm going to use that when I get Lisa to come on this podcast.Kelly Molson: I want you to take us back to kind of Feb., March time 2020, when coronavirus was something very new and nobody in the UK had ever heard the word furlough before. I can very vividly remember what it was like for me with a team of seven thinking, gosh, we've got to pack up, we've got to work from home. Is anyone actually going to buy anything from us for the next ... I've got no idea what's going to happen. I can only imagine what was going through your heads, having a team of people that you were both thinking about and thousands of animals that you have to care for, that you're responsible for. What was that even like?David Field: Well, I think every day you are looking back on that time and hindsight's an amazing thing, to look back on how you handled it, how many hours you spent lying, awake thinking about it. But then, in some respects, we were no different to others. And everybody was facing a crisis in so many different ways. And this has been one of the most important sort of most significant kind of social impacts in our lives. Hopefully we'll never get anything like this. My parents, my grandparents had world wars and stuff like that to deal with. We just had to deal with a bit of a pandemic, which quite frankly, we should all have been prepared for. It was coming. And the next one will come.David Field: For me, it was very odd because just February, March, I was leaving my previous job, ready to come up to Edinburgh to start a new job. So I was having to sort of resolve the issues in one zoo and leave it in a good enough state, ready to come to Edinburgh, where my board, etc. at the time were already trying to deal with the organization that at the time, we didn't have a CEO in place then, did we? You just had to react. You just had to understand that you had so little information that you had to be incredibly dynamic and react to situations.David Field: And the crucial nature, before anything else, was just securing money, was securing funding, just so that you could make sure that you could stay open. And the difference in dealing with governments in the UK as compared to governments in Scotland, were miles apart. And so that was the crux. And you were so focused into that, that other things did disappear. Once you could get the money, once you could get the bank loans, once you got that, then you could start some sort of planning. So that was the crux. It was money, money, money all the way, just so you could stay open. Now, as good charities, we all had some reserves, but we just didn't know what the endpoint was going to be. And so securing funding was the be all and end all.Kelly Molson: And I guess, so David, were you ... I mean, you talked a little bit there about the challenges dealing with English government, Scottish government. What were the differences? What was difficult about that process?David Field: Access, getting people to listen to you. Now look, we know the governments had so much on the plate that wanting to listen to the zoo director down the road was probably fairly low down the list. But it was trying to get the message across that you couldn't, not so much furlough a penguin, but you couldn't furlough a penguin keeper. And just trying to get those individual messages through. But being able to get that through to Scottish government made life so much easier, having people that would listen made so much easier for you. To be fair, DEFRA were excellent, but it was trying to get to the ministers. The civil servants, hats off to them, amazing. But try and get through to ministers who actually make the decisions, was nigh on impossible.Kelly Molson: Yeah, I can completely imagine. And Lisa, so where did this leave you? Because I guess you then have to think of different ways to drive donations. You have to think about how you're engaging with the audience who aren't able to come to your venues. You've got to engage with them on social media, online, and virtually in some way. How did you even ... how did you start that process and where did some of the ideas ... and what did you do? Where did they come from?Lisa Robshaw: I mean, for me, it was a massive learning curve. I'm a visitor attraction marketer by trade. I'm not a fundraiser. And it's obviously a different discipline. Although we're talking to the same people, we're having to talk to them in a slightly different way. So I mean, back to that week in March, it was a sense of disbelief of what was going on. All of a sudden, I had to put a different hat on and I was learning a new trade almost from our sort of development team, and all that kind of thing. We put a lot of people on furlough, which meant we all had to wear different hats and support people in a different way. I suddenly became a web developer and yeah, I'm a digital marketeer, I'm not a web developer.Kelly Molson: You want a job because it's really hard to find web developers right now.Lisa Robshaw: I don't think anyone would want to employ me, to be honest. I gave that part of my career up as soon as I could. But very quickly, it was long hours, long days, adapting our messaging. Because to be fair, Edinburgh Zoo and Highland Wildlife Park, visitor attractions first, almost kind of ... in terms of individual giving, it was such a small part of our charitable income at that stage that we just had to completely do a 360. So in terms of fundraising, it was really just making sure that our development team were well supported in making sure our messages got out, and working with the comms teams to make sure the messaging was appropriate, emotional enough to elicit that donation.Lisa Robshaw: And then it was working with kind of our discovery and learning team, I think there was only one after we'd furloughed everybody, on how are we going to engage with people virtually? So obviously we were looking at the great work that other zoos were doing. Chester, for example, with their Friday kind of online videos and Facebook lives and all this kind of thing. Almost, okay, what can we do, which is really Edinburgh or Highland Wildlife Park-esque? You know? And all this kind of thing.Lisa Robshaw: And one of the light bulb moments, I think in think in lockdown two, when we were all getting really quite professional at lockdowns, professional lockdowners, all this kind of thing, was thinking about how we can do virtual birthday parties and take that experience into people's homes, and do something different to what other people were doing. That's what we wanted to do. And that's how we honed our kind of skills, I guess, and how we developed, and how we all evolved during the two lockdowns. It was incredible.Lisa Robshaw: But the outpouring of support from people we had. I mean, I was very much the same as David, how ... and other attractions, not just zoos, but other attractions, how are we going to keep the money coming in while we're closed? How am I going to sell a membership to somebody when the zoo's closed and they not having the experience? It's things like making sure the membership didn't start until we reopened, so people felt, we'll get them the money at that point, but their membership wasn't starting. They were getting the added value when we opened. And our membership, the support we had from our members and our new members was just incredible during lockdown. It really was. And that just ... yeah, it was a massive learning curve.David Field: I mean, that support Lisa, that you talked about, was huge, was overwhelming. It was remarkable. And certainly Edinburgh Zoo and Highland Wildlife Park, certainly the zoo, hadn't had that level of support previously. The level of support that we received from the community was incredible. But I think that came because the authenticity of our message. We were very, very transparent with what was going on. We spoke to everybody and anybody, whether they wanted to do a podcast, whether they wanted to do a newspaper piece, whether they wanted to talk to us on the phone. We spoke to anybody. And it was the honest truth of what we were putting out there, that we didn't know what was happening day to day. We didn't know about the future of some of these animals. There was questions about our pandas. There was questions about our penguins. But we went out there and talked. We opened our hearts, we opened our zoos to information and messages, and the response that we got was incredible.David Field: Do you know, I think Edinburgh fell in love with its zoo again. They began to value what they might just miss. And it was about the ... I truly believe it was the authenticity of our message and what people saw and heard from our zookeepers, from our conservation teams. And that work with the D and L team, the Discovery and Learning team, was incredible, because they didn't just put material online. They made it just a zoo visit online. They made it so interactive. They made it one on one. It was remarkable. It was just so exciting.Kelly Molson: I love what you said there about Edinburgh realises what they could potentially miss if the zoo wasn't ... if it didn't exist anymore. Have you seen, since the zoo has reopened, that you are getting a lot more kind of people ... a lot more local visitors? Have you seen that that's kind of increased, that people ... they are really loving Edinburgh Zoo again?David Field: I think so. I mean, Lisa might ... you might be able to give a bit more of the kind of stats and facts of it all. I look at it from a more emotive sense and you do just get that level of feeling that people believe in what we're doing and they're really supporting what we are doing. But I think one of the most remarkable things for me was when we did reopen and you saw people coming back into the zoo for the first time. And it was also a time when the families were probably meeting each other for the first time again, because we were one of the few places that were open, one of the few places where people could meet. And suddenly the emotion of people meeting in a place like the zoo, it was remarkable. And we tend to forget the social value of our visitor attractions for quality family time. And that period of just as we were starting to reopen, just emphasized it perfectly of how important the zoo was as a family place, a place for real quality time.Lisa Robshaw: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And the amount of people that were coming back that were saying, "I haven't been for years, and I'd forgotten how wonderful it was or it is." You still get that in the school playground, anecdotally, the mums going, "Oh my God, I can't believe you work at Edinburgh Zoo. You've done so much amazing work during lockdown. The kids have loved the films and all this kind of stuff." And you just go, wow, that social value is an absolute, really good point. And yeah, anecdotal evidence is that everyone did fall in love with the zoo again. It's incredible.Kelly Molson: And they're coming back in droves to show you that love now as well.Lisa Robshaw: Absolutely, yeah. Our visitor numbers this year have been amazing, better than ... I think summer 2020 was better than summer 2019. But we have to make ... or '21, sorry, was better than 2019. But we have to remember 2019's a pretty bad summer weather wise as well. But I do ... so couple the bad weather with this new affection and the fact that people haven't been able to go anywhere else, I mean, it's ... yeah. We're reaping the reward and the challenge is going to be keeping the momentum going into next year when we've got so more competition.Kelly Molson: Yeah.David Field: Absolutely. We've got to seriously up our game for the ... when the period sort of as we were reopening and lockdowns were being lifted, so people just wanted to get out and be local, there was a benefit there. People started to see, as Lisa said, actually this is a pretty, pretty great place. Look at all this exciting stuff that's going on. But now we've got to just keep going and maintaining that excitement and that wonderful visitor attraction element, which drives our charity mission, is essential. So it's challenging going forward.Kelly Molson: It is. And actually one of the questions I was going to ask you is about how you kept your team motivated through the pandemic. Because, like you said earlier, it's not just, you can't furlough a penguin, it's you can't furlough the penguin keeper. So you had a lot of people that were still coming into work during the pandemic because there was a need for them. They had to be there. But I guess an extra question to that is how do you now keep your team motivated to keep that excitement and keep that enthusiasm going, to keep drawing the people in again? So two different questions, or same question, but for two different situations there.David Field: Yeah. I think there's ... it's a really, really tough time for the staff. They're absolutely shattered. Staff such as the ... say the keeping staff, and I mean ... were coming through during the pandemic to work. So they weren't getting time off particularly. And even now our other teams, which are so crucial to making the place work and be great place to visit, there's so much going on that people can't take their ... are struggling to take their holidays because of the momentum that's going on. So people are tired.David Field: And then with the challenges that we are getting there with trying to recruit new people, where there is nobody to recruit, it is putting pressure on people. But it's humbling to work for a team like team RZSS, because they just step up and go above and beyond constantly. And it's the belief in what we do. It's the love of the animals. It's the love of the institution, that people step up to such an extent. And it's remarkable. But they are tired. And we would like to recruit more staff so that they could actually recover.Kelly Molson: We have Kate Nichols on from Hospitality UK, speaking with her next week about the recruitment challenge. So if you do have any questions that you'd like to pose to her, feel free to send them in, because I know that this is widespread right now. And if I'm honest, it's not just the attractions industry. We're struggling ourselves. Like I said, no joke society, if you have got web development skills hit me up. It is a huge challenge right now. And like you said, people are really, really tired. So there's still a long way to go to get everyone motivated and to keep everyone going. I really hear you on that.Kelly Molson: Lisa, I want to talk a little bit about what you said earlier about the birthday parties and some of the things that you did in terms of engaging with your audience while you couldn't open the zoo. Will you still carry on some of those things? And if so, are there any new things in development or anything that's coming up that you're quite excited about that you'd like to share with us?Lisa Robshaw: Yeah. I mean, the demand for the virtual birthday parties has obviously waned now. And actually they'll always be secondary to trying get these groups of kids into the zoo so they can actually, like David say, get close to nature and sort of be around the animals. That's our number one reason for being really, in terms of engagement. But that was great, to see the reactions and all that kind of thing. Not only because we tested it on my own six year old who had a second lockdown birthday, but also just the demand, and people by that point were wanting something different for their kids. That was great.Lisa Robshaw: I mean, one of the things I loved were the amount of companies that came out and actually wanted to work with us, and companies that traditionally the zoo have worked for ... worked with kind of on a sort of cursory ticket selling level. So hotels, for example. We had so many hotels that wanted to come and work with us in a completely different way. So one hotel wanted to do a giraffe themed bedroom, and a certain portion of percentage of the room rate would come to the hotel ... to the zoo. So I mean, I'm under no illusion, a lot of that was for PR and unusual ideas. But never before have we had hotels being that actively courting us.Lisa Robshaw: The big one is the Waldorf Astoria, the five star Waldorf Astoria Hotel, more sort of known as the Cally here in Edinburgh. And they did a zoo themed afternoon tea. Five pounds from every afternoon tea that they sold came to the zoo with an option to top up it to another five pound donation. And I think it was three and a half months that was for sale with, just as we were coming out of lockdown. So you could get home delivery or you could get the whole Waldorf Astoria experience. And they raised eight and a half thousand pounds.Kelly Molson: Wow.Lisa Robshaw: So you work out how many they sold. And that was a partnership we would never have had the opportunity to do had lockdown and COVID and the pandemic not happened. So that was fantastic. So moving forward, I'm really looking forward to working with loads of other different companies, in the next couple of ... next year or so. We've started that initiative with our art trail that we're doing next year, called Giraffe About Town. So this is one of the Wild In Art trails. You might remember things like Cow Parade. Here in Scotland we have the Oor Wullie Bucket trail, but they're popular all around the country. I think there's been Elmer Elephants in Luton, that were involved with. All this kind of thing.Lisa Robshaw: So we're going to have our own herd of 40 sponsored eight foot giraffes around the city of Edinburgh next summer. And at the moment we're going out and talking to companies about sponsoring those giraffes. And what ... this is a complete unknown of a project for me. I've never been involved in something like this to this scale before. But what is really heartening is that a variety of companies that are coming out and actually wanting to support their zoo, from big house builders to a company, a sort of a one man band who does synthesizer things for electric guitars and bands. It's just so random, but it's so amazing to see the outpouring of support that's happening.Lisa Robshaw: And also the public are really excited about ... Every time we talk about Giraffe About Town, there's people making arrangements to come to the city and have a weekend break so they can find all the giraffes. That's kind of our way of giving back to the city as well. So that's a really exciting initiative. Alongside the day job, it's quite hard work, but it's going to be so exciting. And the whole process is a whole new thing for me, from talking to sponsors, to people who create concrete plinths and these things to sit on and then looking at venues for auctions at the end to raise money for our wildlife conservation projects around the world. So yeah, that's a really exciting initiative and that would never ... we would never have taken that type of project on if it wasn't for the pandemic and have the confidence to do it.Kelly Molson: That's amazing, isn't it? That that's something so fabulous that has actually come out of something so horrendous.Lisa Robshaw: I'm going to have a lot of gray hair by the end of it. It's great that I am already. But already. I get quite emotional thinking about what the end result's going to be, and from people ... sort of companies actually getting a lot of extra PR and marketing value out of working with us, to people having a great time around Edinburgh and exploring parts of the city they've never explored, trying to tick off all their giraffes, to the impact they're going to make at auction with real money for charity. It's quite exciting.Kelly Molson: It feels like people want to take ownership of an experience in some way. They want to be part of it, not just come to visit. They want to be part of that for a longer period. Do you know what I mean? Like you come and visit the zoo and then you might adopt an animal, but actually being part of the walking trail, that's really kind of embedding yourself into that experience. Something that Gordon and I discussed actually, when we had it on, was the desire for more personalised experiences, that people want to do things that are not just the norm now. They want something that's really kind of tailored to them. Have you seen an increase in demand for your zoo experiences this year?Lisa Robshaw: Yeah. Massive. Massive demand, to the point where we're getting so booked up in advance. It's great, but you almost get to a situation where we can't fulfill some of them. So we're having to manage that really carefully to make sure that we don't lose the sale, but we're also managing people's expectations. But people want that experience. And if nothing else, the pandemic sort of reignited that passion. People don't just want a tangible kind of gift. It's this thing where ... that experience that people really want, which is ... we are just made for that kind of experience.David Field: I think that is really interesting with the need for personalised experience, but deeper and more emotive experiences. And I think that's a way ... not everybody who comes to the zoo can possibly have a personalised experience. We don't have enough animals. There's not enough time in the day. For all different reasons. I'm very lucky. I get that kind of contact with animals constantly. And people need that in their lives. They cry out for this contact with nature, and it makes people better.David Field: And somehow we got to deliver within the zoo more and more of these emotional experiences. We've got to get people to not just look at an animal from a distance, but when they go into the giraffe house now at the zoo, they don't just see animals. They're really, really close. They can smell them, they can hear them, they can almost taste them. That sounds a bit weird, doesn't it? But it's a full multisensory experience. It's a deeper meaning, which is why the zoo experience means so much more than something you just see on screen. It has to be ... we've got to make the hairs on people's necks sort of stand up, get them really emoting, get those emotions running about animals. Then people care about animals more and want to hear our messages about how we can do more to protect them or conserve them. So emotion is huge for us.Kelly Molson: And is that part of how you kind of inspire people to help you now? Because I guess the zoo ... we're heading into winter, so you're going to have less people visiting. I wanted to ask what the kind of shape of the zoo is as you head into winter this year. But I see that you've got the Help the Animals that you Love campaign still running. Is that something that you run all year through? Are you going to be doing a big kind of driver of that to kind of help get through the winter? Like where are you at?David Field: I mean, I think there's a couple of questions there. I mean, in terms of ... we will do various fundraising activities at different times. And there's a recent appeal gone out just for more of our general work. When there's some specific project, we might do other appeals. But I think where we are really trying to get to is that ... and we touched on it before, is that long term relationship with the zoo. And I said, the zoo is different, whether it's winter, summer, spring, autumn morning, noon, evening, it's always something different. So we want people to be able to experience that and really pushing our membership, pushing that long term relationship with the zoo. And really there's a cradle to grave relationship that you can have with the zoo. And that's what we want to achieve because it's more than just a visit.Kelly Molson: Yeah, it is. This is something that I saw Bristol Zoo has just said, that it's going to open its grounds to the public for free after it moves to a new home next year. Circling back to what you said earlier about the zoo being at the heart of the community and people falling back in love with Edinburgh Zoo, do you have any more initiatives to kind of connect with that local community aside from the walking trail that we've just discussed, which I think is an absolutely wonderful way of connecting with the local community? Have you thought about anything long term for the zoo where you get more of the community engaged with it?David Field: Well, I would say kind of watch this space, because we will be launching next year, a major part of our future strategy is about community and it's about using the unique resources of the zoo and the power of animals to do good, to actually build improved wellbeing in individuals and also in the communities where we work, helping to strengthen the communities where we work. That's really powerful for us. When Edinburgh Zoo first opened back in the early 1900s, it was designed by the social architect, Patrick Geddes, so it was a place where communities could come and walk and commune with nature outside of all the industrial areas and built up areas of Edinburgh. And we still appeal to that. That idea appeals to us, so that it is a place of sanctuary. It is a place where people can come.David Field: And we are undertaking a range of initiatives that we can link with the community. We already do that in many ways. We work with different community groups, both in Edinburgh and up at the Highland Wildlife Park. And we want to look at all of those barriers that are cultural, social health wise, which stops people getting to the zoo. We need to work with that. We need to work with local businesses, with local council, with Scottish government, in order that we can become the most inclusive and accessible visitor attraction, not just in Scotland, but in the UK and beyond.Lisa Robshaw: It's probably worth talking about Highland, Wildlife Park as well, the developments that will start next year for the Scotland's Wildlife Discovery Center. We've got HLF funding for some massive new developments at Highland Wildlife Park, which are just around that sort of engaging with the community, the people that would normally be able to have those experiences, getting close to nature and that kind of thing, and really telling the story of sort of Scotland's wildlife heritage as well. And no better place to do that than in the Cairngorms. So we're really excited about that project and that's going to be an absolute game changer for Highland Wildlife Park.Kelly Molson: Oh, can you share a little bit more about what makes it game changing? Or is this top secret information for the time being?David Field: No, not at all. I mean, there's been quite a lot of information out there about it already. And the Scottish Wildlife Discovery Center is ... it's a transformational project, both for the park and for the society because it will be ... in reality, it's a network of hubs that takes you on an expedition across the Highland Wildlife Park. But this expedition exposes you to the people, the place, and the animals of the Cairngorms. It brings the beauty of the Cairngorms and all the knowledge and information that we need the people that will come and visit.David Field: But we will have ... there's a large discovery centre where you can find all this information. There will be hubs, which overlook our wildcat breeding program project, and our peat restoration project. Then there's a wonderful new accessible learning hub, which will be open for the community as well so that we can bring people to the park that would never have dreamed of coming to the park before or wouldn't have been able to come to the park. But they'll be able to come for different events, community outreach. But it is designed so that we can celebrate the Cairngorms and the people, the place, and the animals therein.Lisa Robshaw: What he said.Kelly Molson: What David said. Do you know what's lovely? Is you speak ... there's a real sense of positivity in this interview. Whenever you both speak, there's a real kind of uplift and a real kind of sense of excitement about what's coming next. So it's been really lovely to hear that come through from you both.David Field: Oh, fantastic. Thank you. I mean, we work with animals. It's amazing. You're having a bad day, go and sit with the penguins.Kelly Molson: That is not dreadful, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, the closest I get is to picking up a dog if I'm having a bit of a bad day, but a penguin would top it.David Field: But that is ... it's so important to us. And it's not a trite statement, but we know that people just visiting a zoo, your stress levels just go down. We know that. We know that again, it's that quality social time. It's memories. It's access to nature. All of this is important for us from so many aspects. And the power of animals to do good is just ... it's beyond. They're amazing.Kelly Molson: Couldn't have said that any better myself, David. I totally agree with you. Thank you both for coming on the podcast today. I always like to end our interviews by asking if you have a book that you would recommend to our listeners. So it could be something that's helped you in your career. It could be something that you just ... you absolutely love. It's definitely not going to be Harry Potter. We know that. Hopefully Geoff is not listening to this, our past-Lisa Robshaw: I'm to going to get an invite to the Warner Brothers Studio at any time soon, am I?Kelly Molson: No, it's not happening, Lisa. But yes, I would like to ask you both if you've got a book that you'd like to recommend?Lisa Robshaw: I'll let David go first.David Field: Well, I love my books. Absolutely love my books. The Zoo Quest Expeditions by Attenborough were an inspiration to me. But more recently, it's The Invention of Nature: The adventures of Alexander van Humboldt. Amazing book by Andrea Wulf. Alexander von Humboldt, one of the greatest naturalists, a real kind of polymath that was there. He invented ecology. He saw climate change before anybody else. And it's so beautifully written and a real inspiration in terms of what he achieved. He's one of my scientific heroes.Kelly Molson: Fabulous. That's very topical. All right, that's David's one. Lisa, what about you?Lisa Robshaw: I'm now regretting asking David to go first. Mine is ... I'm not sure I'm allowed to swear on this podcast.Kelly Molson: You can.Lisa Robshaw: The Life-Changing Magic of Not Giving a F*ck.Kelly Molson: Excellent book.Lisa Robshaw: It was given to me, the actual book was given to me by a friend, God, probably about six or seven years ago when I was having a bit of a hard time. And David ... it'll probably make David smile, and my boss, Ben, but I give myself a really hard time over things sometimes. I just want things to be perfect all the time. It's quite topical at the moment. And actually, I just ... sometimes when I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, I just go into this book and it reminds me that I can't control certain things. I just need to give a fuck about the things I can control and let go of the things I can't. I recommend it to so many friends that have found it useful as well. I know Ben, my boss, would probably want it to be like a bit of a marketing book that I'm recommending or something like that, I thought I really let him down with this. This is well worth a read.Kelly Molson: Lisa, I have read that book. It is an excellent book. So basically what we are recommending is grab a copy of that book, head to the zoo, go and sit by the penguins, life will be sweet.David Field: Perfect.Kelly Molson: All right, well, listen, listeners, as ever, you can have the chance to win copies of those books. So if you would like to win a copy of Lisa's book and David's book, then head over to this episode announcement and retweet it with the words, "I want David and Lisa's book," and we will put you ... books even, and we will put you in the draw to win a copy of each of them. Thank you very much. I really like those suggestions and I really am very grateful for you both coming on and sharing your experiences today with the listeners for the podcast. So thank you.David Field: You're more than welcome, Kelly.Lisa Robshaw: Thanks, Kelly.Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. if you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast. 

SuperFeast Podcast
#145 Healing Skin (and Autoimmune) from Within with Karen Fischer

SuperFeast Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2021 69:52


Today on the podcast, Tahnee is joined by nutritionist and award-winning author of The Healthy Skin Diet, Karen Fischer, for a very real breakdown of why so many people suffer from skin conditions and how healing from within is always possible. Working as a nutritionist specialising in eczema and skin health for the past 20 years, Karen has just about seen it all when it comes to skin inflammation issues (acne, eczema, rosacea, psoriasis) and the lineup of factors that cause them. The author of seven health books, including best-sellers The Eczema Diet, The Eczema Detox, and The Healthy Skin Kitchen, Karen's approach to healing the skin is utterly holistic; She addresses lifestyle, environment, emotional wellbeing, and diet. Whether you're a mother of a baby who has eczema, someone who suffers from acne or allergies, has an autoimmune condition, or wants to have clear, healthy skin; This episode is brimming with something for everyone. Karen discusses the increasing prevalence of salicylate sensitivity, autoimmune conditions, food elimination diets, nourishing the liver for healthier skin, calming the nervous system, Inflammatory load, protocols for skin conditions, and provides practical lifestyle, diet-related skin advice.       "In traditional diets, when you eat seasonally, your diets change with the season, and that's how you would notice the food you're reacting to. But in western society today, we have the same foods available every day. and that's a problem with diagnosing food intolerances".   - Karen Fischer    Tahnee and Karen discuss: Acne. Eczema. Rosacea. Psoriasis The itchy dozen. Salicylate foods. Salicylate sensitivity. Inflammatory load. Eczema in babies. The eczema detox. Oils to eat/avoid or acne. Histamine intolerance. Salicylates and the Liver Autoimmune conditions and skin. Glycine for food chemical intolerance. The mind-body connection and skin sensitivities. The correlation between lung function and health skin. FID programme: Food Intolerance Diagnosis programme Why child teething gel is not great for babies with eczema.   Who is Karen Fischer?    Karen Fischer is an award-winning nutritionist who has written seven health books including, bestsellers; The Eczema Diet, The Eczema Detox, and The Healthy Skin Kitchen. Over the past 20 years, Karen has helped thousands of people with skin inflammation including, eczema, psoriasis, rosacea, dermatitis, and acne.    Karen runs a skincare and supplement company called Skin Friend and The Healthy Skin Kitchen Membership; An online support network for people with skin inflammation.     CLICK HERE TO LISTEN ON APPLE PODCAST    Resources:   Skinfriend.com Eczema Life website Karen's Instagram Eczema Life podcast Skin Friend Facebook The Eczema Diet Facebook The Healthy Skin Kitchen Facebook The Healthy Skin Kitchen website Shop all of Karen Fischer's Books and products HERE     Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We'd also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher, CastBox, iHeart RADIO:)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:00) Hi everybody. And welcome to the SuperFeast podcast. Today, I'm joined by Karen Fischer, which makes me very happy, because I've known Karen for a very long time and she is an incredible author and creator of beautiful skin supplements and many websites, we were talking about before we jumped on, and her work has been for me, it was really profound to get to work with her in my early twenties. And I've seen just so many positive reviews and feedback from her work, especially around things like eczema and acne and rosacea. So I'm really stoked to have you here today, Karen, thanks for joining us.   Karen Fischer: (00:37) Oh, thanks Tahnee. Thanks for having me.   Tahnee: (00:40) Yeah, it's been such a long time, but so nice to see your face again.   Karen Fischer: (00:46) Yeah. [crosstalk 00:00:47]-   Tahnee: (00:46) Yeah. And so I was hoping we could start off with your journey because so just for some context, for those of you listening, Karen and I worked together on her first book, the Healthy Skin Diet, which was probably in the late 2000s, 2008 maybe.   Karen Fischer: (01:03) Yeah, it was published in 2008.   Tahnee: (01:05) Okay, great. My memory's still working. And so I remember reading your story in that book and it's just such a beautiful story because you had such a personal relationship with the work that you do and you went on and educated yourself and healed yourself and your daughter. And so if you could share that story with us, I'd love for you to start off there.   Karen Fischer: (01:27) Yeah, absolutely. Look, I became a qualified nutritionist probably about the age of 25 and shortly after I had a baby girl, Ava, and she two weeks after she was born developed really severe eczema all over her body. And it's funny, I only have like one photo of her with the eczema everywhere, as I just didn't take a lot of photos and just used the general topical treatments for her.   Karen Fischer: (01:54) And it wasn't until a nurse from the early childhood centre, she saw Ava when she was about 10 months old after seeing her earlier, and she's like, "Has your daughter still got eczema?" I was like, "What? Eczema is a genetic condition. What can I do about it?" And she knew I was a nutritionist and she's like, "Oh look." She mentioned salicylates and don't use baby teething gel because it's salicylate. Medication and salicylates are related to eczema. And I was like, it was a light bulb moment for me. I was like, "Oh wow. I know how to get rid of salicylate sensitivity because I had it when I was younger and I studied nutritional biochemistry and I worked out how to fix it from my uni studies." And I was like, so it just changed my life and started me on a journey.   Karen Fischer: (02:42) And by the time my daughter was two, I developed the eczema diet and a supplement routine for her and it cleared up her skin and I kind of, "Oh yeah, that's great." And I forgot about it. But then as a nutritionist, word got out that I treated eczema and I kept on having all these eczema patients come and see me and it grew from there. And I thought, "I don't want to specialise in eczema. I just want to specialise in skin health and beauty." But I was like, "Oh, but these people are suffering." And I was like, "No, I actually really should focus on it." So I wrote the Healthy Skin Diet first and I'm like, "I know I should be writing an eczema book, but I want to help everyone."   Karen Fischer: (03:21) I know there's acne information, acne's a very important thing to treat as well. In my first book I wanted to help everyone and then I went back to, "Okay, let's publish the eczema diet because this is what I did with my daughter." The diet for someone with eczema is totally different to a diet for somebody with acne. Acne's oily skin, eczema is very dry skin. So any dry skin condition, you are going to need a vastly different diet to someone with oily skin.   Karen Fischer: (03:53) So that was the start of my journey. And well, actually before that, I grew up with skin problems as well. I was the kind of kid that looked like I was sick all the time. And I used to joke, "I grew up on aspirin." So no one really knew [crosstalk 00:04:11] salicylate sensitivity because I had headaches every week. I was popping aspirins as a kid. So I did end up with salicylate sensitivity and that's why look, no one really talks about salicylate sensitivity, but it's the most widely researched chemical in the world because of all the problems that people had with asthma, aspirin and getting asthma attacks and being seriously ill from aspirin. So yeah, so it's a massively researched area. So when I was treating eczema, I was like, "Oh." Or there's so much scientific research on salicylates, it actually made it easier for me to design my diets.   Tahnee: (04:50) Yeah. And I mean, I remember the first time I heard about salicylates was probably from your book and then speaking to, I think it was our accountant whose son had really bad eczema and they drew it down to salicylate sensitivity being the cause. And what shocked me, I think about when I learned about them is they're in so many foods and actually a lot of foods we would consider like healthy and maybe even like the foundation of our diet for, especially if we're trying to feed our kids lots of vegetables and fruits and whole foods and that kind of stuff. Could you speak a bit to that?   Karen Fischer: (05:23) Yeah. So it looks like salicylate foods aren't unhealthy. They are definitely in healthy foods and my goal has always been to get people not being sensitive to salicylates so they have a varied diet. So yeah, I know we tend to demonise things like gluten and histamines in foods and amines in foods and salicylates in foods. And I probably did that in the early days as well going, "This is bad for eczema." But while really it's our immune systems are overreacting to a harmless substance. So that's the bottom line with any sort of food intolerance. Look, food allergies might be a little different, but with any food intolerance, such as salicylate sensitivity, histamine intolerance, even gluten intolerance in the milder sense and other food chemicals, there's glutamate such as MSG. Those are intolerances based on our immune system overreacting to stuff.   Karen Fischer: (06:24) So while with my dietary stuff, it's really important to reduce those things in the diet, to calm down your skin and get you feeling normal again, and that calms down the immune. And then you can start reintroducing those salicylate foods again, even reintroducing little bits of gluten. And it does depend on the dosage to start off with. So it's calming down the immune system by giving it a little break, a three month break from those high chemicals is often enough for people to be able to consume them again. Some people, it does take longer. Some people it takes a year or two.   Tahnee: (07:01) And I guess I'm thinking about that naturopathic concept where there's like that bucket of tolerance, I suppose, or chemical inputs into the system and the body gets to a point where it really just can't handle what's coming in anymore. And so I think what you are talking to there is that if we reduce the load on the body, it gives the body a chance to heal and repair and then it doesn't have to necessarily be a lifetime of avoiding... Because they're in mangoes and things, right? Like yummy foods.   Karen Fischer: (07:34) Yeah. So the bucket being full, that's a really good analogy because what happens is, yes, so the bucket does get full. And how that occurs is your liver is designed to deactivate salicylates and eliminate them from the body but your liver needs nutrients to do that. So your liver needs a range of B vitamins and zinc and minerals and glycine and a bunch of other proteins in order to deactivate salicylates and other chemicals and drugs such as paracetamol and so forth. The liver does all of that, but when your liver runs out of nutrients, the bucket fills up really quickly. So a nutritional approach is also really important and also calming down the nervous system is really important as well and stress, so that all helps to empty that bucket. So yeah, it's an important thing.   Karen Fischer: (08:29) Because they're our fun foods, salicylate foods, almonds, which are [crosstalk 00:08:35] as well, which can damage the gut lining. There's so many good and bad things to any health food. It's funny because people just say, "Oh avocado, coconut, almonds, the best thing for your skin." I was like, "Well, yeah, if you process them properly. Absolutely." Yeah. If your bucket's full, avocado could give someone the worst itchy night of their life and they'll be crying all night because they can't sleep and they're itching like crazy. I've had head to toe eczema myself, and I've had nights like that even while avoiding all the foods when I had an autoimmune condition for a while that made everything go crazy. I'm better now. So those things are absolutely reversible.   Karen Fischer: (09:25) And I'm really excited about that, but I know how itchy and uncomfortable it can be and I've of people email my team and just say, "Oh, I found you because I searched eczema and avocado because I've been eating a lot of avocados and I can't sleep because I'm itchy all the time." And they said, "Your website came up, your itchy dozen worst foods for eczema came up because... And I was like, oh, I've always been told to eat lots of avocado. So I was eating more and more and more and getting more [crosstalk 00:09:58]." I say one person's superfood is another person's sleepless night itching.   Tahnee: (10:07) Like a kryptonite.   Karen Fischer: (10:08) Exactly. Yeah. My daughter and I, we can eat avocado and things like that again. My daughter's a funny one. She can eat everything again, but if she has avocado every day for a week, she'll start to get itchy. So it's like having it two days a week and you're totally fine with it, but it's I just say it's not an everyday food.   Tahnee: (10:30) And in terms of that, like I mean, I guess thinking about kids coming in with eczema as tiny babies. Are you looking at the toxic load to use that sort of phrasing on their bodies? Because my understanding is their little livers don't function quite as efficiently as ours anyway. So that's-   Karen Fischer: (10:51) That's right. That's in my books, yeah.   Tahnee: (10:52) Yeah. Maybe I learned that from you, but yeah the factoring is this like, "Yes, their bodies don't process that." So is it something that if your baby's got eczema, are you looking at your diet as well? Or is it overall supplementing them to help assist their liver function? Or what are you looking at when you're dealing with babies?   Karen Fischer: (11:13) Yes. Babies are complicated.   Tahnee: (11:15) Yeah.   Karen Fischer: (11:16) There's not a lot you can do, but definitely, I mean, the first thing is look at what is going on in the home. From anything like stress within the family, babies pick up on that, if the place is dusty or carpets. So we look at the external stuff first for babies. The fabrics, if they're got a hundred percent cotton fabrics on their body, in their bedding, that's great. What you're washing their clothes with, is it a sensitive skin washing powder? So we tick all those boxes first and then we go to making sure you're not using teething gel because use the frozen kind of chew rings instead of the salicylate teething gel, because that can seriously cause eczema to bleed and some of my patients have gone, "Yeah, no. Yeah. When I gave my child teething gel, their skin started bleeding." And so it's not great for babies with eczema.   Karen Fischer: (12:23) So once we've ticked all those boxes, then we go to what the mother's eating in the diet. I don't like to tell breastfeeding mothers to take a whole bunch of things out of their diet. Just say, "Look, just avoid the itchy dozen. And once your baby's the age of one, then we can deal with things a little bit differently." But I think it's more important that because when you're breastfeeding, you're just like [crosstalk 00:12:46]-   Tahnee: (12:48) Eat whatever you need.   Karen Fischer: (12:49) [crosstalk 00:12:49]. Your baby is second priority to you, having good nutrition and getting good sleep and not having to fuss with a major diet while you are going through these big life changes with a new baby. So the eczema comes second in those cases. And look, just doing those changes is enough to reduce symptoms in a lot of cases. And having just a good skin cream as well, that's really hydrating. We've got one on my website, but just anything that's going to just lock in moisture and not make them more itchy. That's a really wonderful approach for a young baby, making sure the ingredients are okay for babies.   Karen Fischer: (13:39) A great time is when you're starting to introduce new foods for a baby. So your first foods so we have a list of babies' first foods that are lower in salicylates and lower in those natural chemicals because there is research showing that babies' livers are naturally under functioning and they don't process salicylates very well and that's aspirin research. So it's really well researched. So it's not just saying, "Oh this could be it." It's like going, "Okay, this is scientific research." So any salicylate food so don't give babies avocado first, maybe give them things like white potato is a low salicylate-   Tahnee: (14:24) Mushy pears that kind of thing.   Karen Fischer: (14:25) Yeah mushy pears. Yeah. Mushy peeled pears that's low salicylate. So just starting with the easy to digest foods for a baby, just does wonders with starting them off on the right track. And a paediatrician, not a doctor, but a paediatrician can also prescribe a really special formula if the baby's formula fed. So it might be Neocate or something, but it's something that a regular doctor can't prescribe for a baby with eczema. But yeah, that's a really great approach if someone was using formula as well.   Tahnee: (15:04) Yeah. So just back on that diet thing is an interesting thing that I came across much later after working with you when I was studying Chinese medicine and dietary therapy. So they actually recommend for babies, a clear bland diet with a lot of white foods, which is really interesting because if you look at what eczema diets typically are, and again, from having read a couple of your books, they are usually pretty bland and pretty white.   Karen Fischer: (15:33) [crosstalk 00:15:33] with white cabbage. You can have red cabbage as well [crosstalk 00:15:36].   Tahnee: (15:37) Yeah. Like the peeled potato, it's a lot of these really, like I imagine things like congee and stuff would be quite good. Things that are quite simple to digest. And we certainly didn't have that approach with my daughter. We were a bit more in that whole baby-led weaning world, but it's interesting. I think being pregnant again, I'm like, I might be a little bit more gentle this time and not be she was eating avocado and green smoothies and all sorts of crazy-   Karen Fischer: (16:05) But if she doesn't have eczema, then you don't need to worry about it. If there's no problem, you don't need to fix anything. You can be intuitive like that. An eczema baby, there is a genetic component to having eczema in the family. I don't suggest everyone has to necessarily follow that. So if the child had eczema or asthma or any signs of inflammation, then this is the approach for that type of child.   Tahnee: (16:37) Well, I remember, and this is interesting because that stuff supports lung function in Chinese medicine and spleen function, which are those two really weak organ systems in a baby according to their sort of philosophy, and I know you've spoken, I think it was in the Healthy Skin Diet, you spoke about lung function being really important to healthy skin function. So there's this interesting correlation I think, between supporting those organ systems and having minimising things like asthma and eczema and any skin dysfunction. So is that something you've seen in practise showing up?   Karen Fischer: (17:08) Yeah, absolutely. And I feel the body supports each other as a whole. I know there's a lot of diets that just focus on liver health or they just focus on gut health. And I was like, "Oh that's nice, but that's, what sometimes..." Or heart health, it's like, "Your red wine for heart health." I'm like, "Yeah, but it's not great for your liver health." Let's not forget it's a body as a whole. So absolutely, I think all those systems we can learn, take the best of all the information that helps a certain system in the body and put it together in a holistic way. It's not all about gut health, it's not all about liver health, it's like the body as a whole.   Karen Fischer: (17:54) And I think the mind is one of the biggest predictors of our health as well. What we tell ourselves every day is one of the most important things for our mental health and wellbeing. Because if we are telling ourselves, "Oh I look fat or I look this." That's an instruction, that's setting your GPS to make food decisions that will keep you that way. So we've really got to be really careful and kind with ourselves. And those thoughts will naturally pop up and you can just say, "You know what, that's not true. I'm not going to focus on that. I'm going to focus on having great health. I'm going to focus on eating for healthy skin. I'm going to focus on creating my best life." You've got to shut down the negative thinking because it's going to happen naturally, but you can't buy into it. So it's like, "Oh yeah. That's not true." You're just going to remind yourself-   Tahnee: (18:56) Not helpful, thank you. Moving right along.   Karen Fischer: (18:59) [crosstalk 00:18:59].   Tahnee: (19:00) No, it's so true. Yeah. And I mean, I had an eating disorder as a young person and it's really interesting how sitting where I am now, I can't even relate to that thinking process, but I remember that loop and I remember being like... I almost remember the day it snapped as well. And through a lot of work, it wasn't just magical, but I think it's like a spiral that you can really easily get sucked into. And I remember you addressed it in the Healthy Skin Diet. And I remember thinking, that was for me one of, [inaudible 00:19:34] you had the breathing and the mind aspect in there, which I think was really new at the time. Because a lot of people weren't talking about those factors in terms of skin health and just general wellbeing. It was the 2000s, I guess, were the start of that movement toward us really understanding that mind-body connection more collectively and I think that was really special. So thank you for bringing that into everybody's consciousness before it was a thing.   Karen Fischer: (20:03) Yeah. You remind me because that books from so long ago, but I remember people saying, "Oh, I've never thought like that." Because there's a walking meditation where you think a nice thought about a person who's walking past. You pick a good point about them whether it's something about the way they look or they look confident, they look like a nice person. Because I used to do that and I'd go, these people would smile at me, I'm going, "Oh, can they read my mind?" I got lots of comments. So I've had readers saying, "Oh, I never thought to do that, but it actually made me feel really good and really connected to people."   Karen Fischer: (20:40) And I just really wanted people to know it's just not all about food and weight and weighing yourself or denying yourself stuff. It's about eating foods that aren't harming you, whether that's for if you have a salicylate sensitivity or a gluten sensitivity or whatever, and also bringing the mind aspect into it and just that kind of self-love, it just is growing the good in you and it retrains your brain to avoiding eating disorders and avoid harming ourselves, which we do by accident. We don't mean to, but we train our brains to get into this loop of choices, which we aren't good for us.   Tahnee: (21:27) Yeah. And I think that negative or, I mean, it's easy to look for fault and negativity and what's wrong I think. And there's all the evolutionary research around why we do that and obviously our family upbringings and stuff too. I learned from a Daoist teacher, a practise called inner smile where you purposely, and at the beginning you feel like a real idiot, but you like, "Smile at my body." And over time it becomes quite, you condition yourself to look for that joy and happiness and pleasure in experiencing your body. And I think those kinds of practises are really helpful. I think if you are listening to this and that's something you're interested in, Karen's first book, which we'll link to, talks to that.   Tahnee: (22:12) You also speak to, from memory, acne and rosacea and psoriasis and ageing and all sorts of stuff in that book. So that was definitely a more general piece of work. And I remember it has all the programmes and protocols and I mean, I've looked at it when I had my daughter. She didn't, she actually, so we didn't have eczema early. She didn't have anything until she started probably when she was two, she first got eczema and it was because I was giving her heaps of coconut milk, almond milk and avocado. And I was sort of like, "What the hell was going on?" Because she'd had perfect skin before that. And I'd had sensitivity to preservatives as a kid, like fruit juices and stuff. So I knew that there was something in our family that was a bit like that. And we just took that out for a few months and she was fine after, now she can have all those things like you say, we don't overdo it.   Tahnee: (23:13) It was really interesting to me picking that book up again and it was really helpful to have a look at even that small programme on eczema you have there, but you've gone on to write the complete eczema diet and you've got your new book as well, Healthy Skin Kitchen. Is The Healthy Skin Kitchen again, aimed at a more general kind of audience or is it still specifically for-   Karen Fischer: (23:37) [crosstalk 00:23:37].   Tahnee: (23:37) Yeah. Okay. Can you tell us a bit about that then?   Karen Fischer: (23:38) Yeah. So that's really the accumulation of 20 years working as a nutritionist, specialising on skin health and eczema, because there was just so much new information. So I've covered vagus nerve wellness and some really great research on that and your microbiome and all the research that's on that. Because it's just the research side's really fascinating. So with The Healthy Skin Kitchen so I do mention the different diets for things like acne. So you can look up your skin disorder and you can see what supplements you need. For example, with acne things like flaxseed oil and chia seeds and things like that, wonderful, everyone writes about how they're great for skin, but for some with acne, who's already got oily skin that is going to make you break out like you're a teenager again. So it's little things like that.   Karen Fischer: (24:36) With acne, the only oil you should ever use really is the olive oil or extra virgin olive oil because it's not going to change your skin oiliness. So researchers who have done flax seed oil research shows how after using it for six to 12 weeks, it's increased your skin hydration and the oil content in your skin and their placebo they use is olive oil because it doesn't change your skin oiliness. That's kind of a scientific factor. If you've got oily these skin, it's just the olive oil or extra virgin olive oil.   Karen Fischer: (25:06) For someone say that has psoriasis, their diet is probably closer to the eczema diet. But one big thing with psoriasis is calcium deficiency because calcium is needed for your skin cells to differentiate so for your skin cells to exfoliate and shed in a normal way. So with psoriasis, your skin cells are turning over crazy amounts and you're getting really flaky, but with all my psoriasis patients and I've had it as well, you need calcium and magnesium in equal amounts. We've got a product specifically for that. Because too much calcium without magnesium's not good for you. You really need equal amounts of magnesium when you're doing a supplement form. And that will just really quickly decrease the psoriasis and make the skin cells not turn over as quickly, just to turn over at a normal rate. So it's just little things like that in The Healthy Skin Kitchen, just to help break it down very specific for specific skin disorders and the prescriptions that I've prescribed over the last 20 years, just so people aren't doing just a blanket, healthy skin programme that's designed for everyone because really different people-   Tahnee: (26:23) You've got to drill down really on what you need, yeah.   Karen Fischer: (26:27) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.   Tahnee: (26:28) And I mean, if there's, because I know with psoriasis and probably a lot of these things and you mentioned the immune system at the start, that autoimmune factor, it was one of the things that my husband and I first talked about when we met. He said to me like, "You've got to understand, of course autoimmune is serious, but there has to be ways to sort of start to work with it and heal it because why would your body want to attack itself?" And I'd been to doctors and naturopaths that had just kept me on protocols and routines forever, but never really... I wasn't necessarily getting anywhere. I was just staying in this homeostasis place. And that for me was a really big mindset shift, which also then led to me exploring things like medicinal mushrooms and things which changed, I think, how my immune system functions, because I can tolerate things I could never tolerate before. I wonder what your experience with that is and how that relates to skin, because I mean it's something that I hear all the time in our business, people coming to us with autoimmune.   Karen Fischer: (27:29) Yeah. And it's such an important topic to talk about because having an autoimmune condition is just awful. It really changes the way that you interact with society. I know when I had it, so I had mast cell activation syndrome so I became allergic to cold weather. So I'm on the Gold Coast and when the Gold Coast got cold, I was covered head to toe in eczema and I'd get hives if I had a [crosstalk 00:27:57]. I tried the Wim Hof Method and I'm like-   Tahnee: (27:57) Don't do that.   Karen Fischer: (28:00) [crosstalk 00:28:00] all over my body. So with me, my autoimmune condition, it was just, and I actually I'm saying that I really don't talk about it anymore. Because just talking about it can make my skin itch. So a big thing with autoimmune is not to make it who you are, not to talk, talk about it yet when you need to, but try not to all the time or make it an excuse for not being able to do things, even if-   Tahnee: (28:29) Yeah, that identifying with it sort of-   Karen Fischer: (28:32) Yeah. I couldn't eat out with my friends, but in the end I'll just say, "Oh, I'm just busy or I can't." Rather than going, "Oh I can't eat." And now I can, I can go out with my friends and I order whatever I want and that's great. But so with autoimmune, the biggest thing I found was reducing stress or changing the way you process stress. So that's the a lot of calming activities, a lot of self-love because yeah, I always look at what's the body trying to tell you. If the immune system's attacking you or you're attacking yourself, like an auto way, how am I attacking myself? How am I attacking others? Am I being self critical? Am I being critical of others?   Karen Fischer: (29:20) I think it's changing, with the brain you're training, it's changing pathways of the past. It's the way of accepting people, accepting myself. So a lot, lot, lot of self-love, breathing techniques is important. Meditation is important. I know you guys do all of that. Someone with an autoimmune condition it's really about going within and finding what works for you. I'm actually developing a programme on how I reverse my autoimmune condition, which I'll bring it out next year. So I've got The Healthy Skin Kitchen membership and at the moment, so that's the membership that helps people to follow my diet programmes, the food intolerance diagnosis programme from the Eczema Detox so that's going to be in there. We teach people how to diagnose their food intolerances and then how to expand their diet.   Karen Fischer: (30:19) But then I've got another programme which helped me to reverse my autoimmune condition. So about calming down the nervous system and the steps and brain retraining and the steps on how to do that. Because I tried brain retraining and it didn't quite work for me so I had to flip it and do the opposite of it using partly what I learned from brain retraining. But I had to change it to suit my autoimmune condition. And I just want to share that with everyone. So I will bring that out in mid 2022, it's going to take me quite a while to do all the videos and stuff. But yeah, so autoimmune very much self-love and getting back to nature. I grow fruit trees and veggie patch, I've got 20 fruit trees in my backyard, my soil [crosstalk 00:31:09]. I'm very much in the dirt trying to get my sand to be real dirt.   Tahnee: (31:17) Coastal problems. Yeah.   Karen Fischer: (31:18) First world problems.   Tahnee: (31:22) They're good problems to have.   Karen Fischer: (31:25) Yeah. Autoimmune, yeah. And it's also important for people with autoimmune to just listen to themselves and go within, because everyone's slightly different. We have our different triggers and our different reasons for having it as well.   Tahnee: (31:42) Yeah. I really relate to that piece on attacking yourself and that shows up in your thought processes and how you... And it for me, it was around there was the eating disorder that was sort of an extreme expression of it, but the autoimmune was almost like my secret continuation of that same process if you know what I mean? And so it took a little while to really understand that. And yeah, for me, things like Yin Yoga and Yoga Nidra and meditation and the Daoist practises and stuff I learned, they all contributed to healing. But yeah, it does, I mean, I would say it took 10 years for me to really be okay and probably still have to manage things.   Karen Fischer: (32:26) [crosstalk 00:32:26].   Tahnee: (32:27) Yeah.   Karen Fischer: (32:28) We're told it's a life sentence kind of thing. We're not told, "Hey, you can reverse that." I think us talking about it today, going to people, "Hey, you can reverse that." I think that's an important conversation to have. Because I went out to dinner with a couple of friends the other night and one she's just recovered from this terrible arthritis that was all over her body and she's only in her forties and another one she's just got it because of the pandemic. It came on because then she was in lockdowns in Melbourne and she had terrible crippling after arthritis in her hands. And I was like, "Oh, hey, you can reverse that. It's a lot of self care and it's a lot of not being so driven and relaxing a little bit." She goes, "Oh no, I'm very driven. I'm not going to stop that." I was like, "I'm there with your, sister. I'm very driven too, but I had to put my health first."   Tahnee: (33:19) Yeah, it's a type A kind of a thing, isn't it? And look, I think if you look at, and that was something I wanted to touch on quickly with the piece about salicylates and the liver as well, it's like you're looking at this inflammation, this inflammatory load, and if you look at what these autoimmune conditions are all the time they're associated with really high inflammation and stress on organs like the liver and dysbiosis in the gut and things. But again, from that whole systems approach, it's like you don't need to then go and attack the liver with detox chemicals or like it's really more about how do you bring everything into harmony so that the system can harmonise. And like you're saying, reducing stress, reducing the goals in one's life, they're all really important parts of it.   Tahnee: (34:03) And I've noticed it with my daughter. I keep her home from school and you can just see when she's starting to fall onto that side of things and getting stressed and she'll... I don't know, this is something you start to see in kids and that she's been a really good mirror for me where I've been able to see her start to fall into a behavioural change or something where I go, "Okay, she's hitting stress and I'm actually reflecting. I'm really busy. I'm stressed. We all need to take it down a notch today." And if you can get onto it early, it really helps I think and so that stuff-   Karen Fischer: (34:35) Yeah. That's great. And just noticing and identifying that, that's really important in children as well, so very, very important. Because it's like modern life, we just have all these goals and are really, really driven and that can... And the funny thing is, is when I had the autoimmune condition and before it, because I think I've... I never knew that my body was so tense and then I was so, I mean maybe even anxious for it. I just thought I used to be shy as a child, but I was probably riddled with anxiety and it's only just come out in my forties, the autoimmune stuff. And once I learned to calm myself down and relax my body, I was like, "Oh wow."   Karen Fischer: (35:24) And when I do start to feel my body getting tense again or feeling tense again, I was like, "Oh yeah, that's not normal so now I need to do something." So I always feel like I could be on the brink of tipping back, but then I notice it and I just do something to tip me back the other way. And it's so simple when you identify it, it's like people that are tired all the time and need coffee all the time. Once they detox off coffee and go back to eating well, they're like, "Oh wow. I feel amazing. I never knew I could feel this good. I just thought feeling bad was feeling normal." So it's identifying stress and seeing in our children and in ourselves when we start to tip over into that stressy kind of mode because yeah, it's not healthy for our skin, it's not healthy for [crosstalk 00:36:15]-   Tahnee: (36:16) No. And yeah, what you're saying that course correct. One of my teachers used to teach this. I can't remember which one right now. But if the pendulum is swinging in extremes, then you're going to have extreme symptoms. But if you can get your pendulum to swing in like a smaller range, then you'll notice, "I'm getting tense or getting run down, course correct, rest." And then you can kind of start to navigate in a more graceful way, I suppose, without as many extreme symptoms and needing to have those... I used to need a week in bed to recover from my life and now it's like I have a day off with my daughter and we hang out and play in the garden. We're evolving, look at us let's go. And getting there.   Tahnee: (37:04) I wanted to bring it back to rosacea because this is not an area I'm super familiar with. Again, I'm aware that there's a bit of a liver correlation there and I don't know what your research has brought up around the MTHFR, is that how you say it? That sort of process, but a lot of the people I've spoken to with rosacea tend to seem to have that genetic variant. I wonder if you could speak to that and rosacea in general, what you know about that.   Karen Fischer: (37:32) Yeah, absolutely. So look with rosacea. So rosacea for anyone who doesn't know, it's kind of when your skin goes all red and you can end up with this a bulbous nose, if you have rosacea really badly for a long period of time. So you want to kind of reverse it before your nose starts to grow. So what rosacea, what your body is kind of telling you with rosacea... So blood is having trouble getting to your skin surface. So what's happening is the blood cells are opening extra wide to let the blood into the skin surface. And that's giving you this red appearance because all your blood vessels are vasodilated and staying open. If you kind of analyse that, you go, "Okay, well, how do I naturally get blood to the surface of my skin without this vasodilation needing to happen?"   Karen Fischer: (38:27) So exercise is one massive thing for people with rosacea. I had it very mildly, many years ago. I lived a sedentary lifestyle, not much of an exercise back then and whenever I exercised it went away. So it really is a matter of how do I get really great blood circulation to my skin without... And that's, first of all, exercise. Vitamin deficiencies are important to correct as well. And so rosacea is also, so drinking alcohol is a big issue with that. So histamine, so it's a histamine response. So people with rosacea, I find if we take them off amines, sometimes they need to reduce their salicylates as well ,that gives them relief really, really quickly. And then they get their body healthier so then they don't react to those things down the tracks.   Karen Fischer: (39:22) But getting onto it early is better before because the vasodilation changes can become permanent. So, but they don't need to be so that's really important. So the MTHFR that kind of gene variant, so look those genes can be switched on and off so that if you're really working on stress management, relaxation... And I know that some of their treatments, they use really high methylated B vitamins, which I disagree with very high of anything can have side effects and they talk about all the side effects. So I do really low doses, if you need the methylated version of B vitamins, but in super low doses. Our bodies don't need a lot to function properly, but they need everything in balanced amounts or else you'll end up deficient in something else. So too much of one B vitamin will cause a deficiency in the others.   Karen Fischer: (40:25) Magnesium's really, really important. So if you are deficient in magnesium and taking these methylated B vitamins, you're going to react to the methylated B vitamins. So magnesium's a really, really, really important nutrient, helps us to get calcium into the correct places in our bones or else calcium just floats around in our bloodstream. It helps with our liver to deactivate chemicals. So when our body's functioning properly, when our liver and our gut's functioning properly, we don't have these gene issues. So definitely methylated B vitamins, but low doses, more magnesium, less B vitamins would be my kind of prescription for anyone with those kind of issues. Yeah, less is more.   Tahnee: (41:14) And that epigenetic piece, I guess, is super important because that's, I think for me as well, I think I've technically been diagnosed with celiac disease, but I can tolerate gluten now. I'm going to have to be careful with dosage. I can't go and eat it for a month, every day, like it wouldn't do me any favours, but I can have it a couple of times a week without dramas. And that I believe is sort of pushing me into that space of like, "If I maintain my stress levels, if I tend to myself in other ways, then that sort of aspect of my diet needs to be less controlled." And I think that's probably that overarching theme of what we've been talking about in terms of autoimmune, in terms of all of these things, it's like, there's the environmental factor, there's the personal, and then there's the things like diet and supplements and stuff as well. It's never just one, I wish, just one piece of the puzzle. There's lots of things obviously that can be done.   Tahnee: (42:12) And I saw your product, the Skin Friend product, there's like an AM and a PM. I did notice you had magnesium in there. Do you want to talk a little bit about what the intention with that product is? Is it mostly for eczema or is it...   Karen Fischer: (42:25) Yeah, absolutely. So the Skin Friend AM, so that's like your morning multivitamin, because it's really important that we just aren't deficient in things so that I actually initially designed that for people with salicylate sensitivity and eczema, but then people with acne just said, "Oh, it got rid of my acne as well." The AM is a liver helper. So that's just giving your liver what it needs to deactivate chemicals. So it's like when your bucket gets full, I thought I needed to have something to, because it wasn't available for me to prescribe to my patients. So I designed this for my daughter initially and then one of my patients said, "Why don't you give me the supplement you gave to your daughter?" So that came from that. It's just the liver nutrients that helps your liver to deactivate all the chemicals. We can't avoid chemicals and pollution and pesticides or whatever. We breathe them in, we ingest them accidentally or on purpose. So it's better to focus on giving our liver whatever it needs to cope with all the chemicals, without the bucket getting full. And so-   Tahnee: (43:37) And like is said, a lot of the, I was just going to quickly say, a lot of the chemicals are healthy chemicals. Things like salicylates and histamines and amines aren't necessarily bad for us, but if we can process or digest them. Yeah. So moving on to PM-   Karen Fischer: (43:51) All those chemicals are in healthy foods. So yes, and the liver's job is to deactivate them. So we just want to help the liver so it's not working so hard. And now the PM, so that's got the calcium, magnesium and glycine. So a lot of [inaudible 00:44:14] people with eczema and psoriasis and skin inflammation, they're actually deficient in calcium and magnesium. But so more so calcium, they're getting it in their diet, but if they're deficient in magnesium, they're not absorbing their calcium. So everyone recommends calcium and vitamin D but it's not the whole story. So research shows that your calcium will stay floating around in your blood and not get into your bones where it's meant to be if you don't have enough magnesium. And taking calcium on its own can even be harmful because, because it needs so much magnesium to be processed properly, it will make you deficient in magnesium. So there's another 300 enzyme reactions in our body will miss out on work, it won't work properly because calcium's-   Tahnee: (45:05) Dominating.   Karen Fischer: (45:07) Dominated your, made you deficient in it. So this product's evolved over the years. So it's got equal amounts of calcium and magnesium. So it's a really safe product and it really helps with sleep. People just say, "Oh, one night have taken that and I started sleeping better." Because people with eczema, as you might know, they just get really itchy in the middle of the night. It's like, I don't know, you just wake up itchy all over. So it just helped to maybe knock those people out a little bit and it just, magnesium calms the nervous system. It's muscle relaxants. And calcium blocks the absorption of zinc. So it needed to be away from the AM ingredients as well so that's really important the way a supplement's designed to not block the absorption of other nutrients.   Tahnee: (46:07) And glycine, can you speak about that a little bit, because I feel like you mention in The Healthy Skin Diet and probably in The Eczema Diet.   Karen Fischer: (46:18) Yeah, absolutely. So glycine's a component of collagen in your skin. So it's a really important one. People talk about taking collagen supplements. So glycine is a component of collagen and I feel glycine works better than collagen supplements. I've taken a collagen supplement and they say, "Oh, it takes 18 months to show results." I don't know if that's true or not. I think maybe some are better than others and probably some would do better results, but glycine's a component. So I find that taking glycine separately can really help and it helps the liver deactivate chemicals as well. So that was just another way... It does need magnesium and B vitamins and your vitamin C as well. So it's not just all about glycine, but yeah, really, really helpful for people with food chemical intolerance.   Tahnee: (47:08) And I guess I'm hearing, as a bit of a side effect, it's going to have some of those benefits of collagen that maybe people who are looking for anti-ageing and stuff are going to have some better collagen structure in the body, in the fascia and that kind of thing is that...   Karen Fischer: (47:20) Yeah. So yeah, collagen is super important with skin elasticity as well with avoiding things like stretch marks. So yeah, so making sure you've got your collagen nutrients, that's really great. Whereas if you're taking a collagen supplement, that's naturally high in histamine, so that's not really suitable for someone say with eczema or skin inflammation.   Tahnee: (47:41) Yeah. And that was something I thought was interesting I think in The Healthy Skin Diet, you spoke to how sometimes things like bone broths and things which everyone on the internet likes to say are amazing for skin health, but not necessarily. Could you speak a little bit about that?   Karen Fischer: (47:57) Yeah, absolutely. And I do have a bone broth recipe in The Healthy Skin Diet and-   Tahnee: (48:01) You do, it's a good one. I think I still make it.   Karen Fischer: (48:06) Yes. But for someone with eczema who also has amine intolerance or someone with histamine intolerance then that's what going to make them itch like crazy. So 35% of eczema sufferers are sensitive to amines and histamines so only 35% of them can't have a bone broth. And on saying that, a homemade bone broth that's say lower in salicylates is probably a better option for them.   Tahnee: (48:29) Yeah, because storing it actually increases, is this-   Karen Fischer: (48:33) The amines.   Tahnee: (48:34) The leftovers? Yeah.   Karen Fischer: (48:36) Absolutely. Yeah. So leftover meats develop amines the next day, that's why they get all yummier the next day. [crosstalk 00:48:43] and bone broths get more flavoursome the next day as well. So amines is a flavour enhancer.   Tahnee: (48:52) Yeah. Okay. So if you're intolerant to those, then you're going to find those yummy next day foods not so good for you.   Karen Fischer: (48:58) Yeah. And we probably should say how to find out if you're intolerant to it because so it's doing a special elimination diet. So we call it the FID programme, it's the Food Intolerance Diagnosis programme. So it's temporarily taking those foods out of your diet and we just have set recipes that make it really yummy for people. So it's not just a eating rice and bean kind of diet. It's come a long way since the 1970s, we have a trendy, fabulous recipes and smoothie bowls and whatever you see online, we have a low salicylate version of it. We've got out [inaudible 00:49:39] flat breads and just some really nice gluten-free wraps or whatever so people don't miss out on a single thing.   Tahnee: (49:49) Yeah. Is that part of your online membership as well as the book?   Karen Fischer: (49:53) Yes.   Tahnee: (49:53) Yeah. Okay.   Karen Fischer: (49:55) Yeah. The Healthy Skin Kitchen membership. I've got the healthy skin kitchen book, which has lots of great recipes. My wonderful publisher, Exisle Publishing, I had 90 recipes and they went, "Oh, we can only fit in 50." So the other ones have gone in the online programme plus we do free recipe every week and we have a support network, a forum where you can chat with everyone else who's on the programmes and you can see all the videos explaining the programmes and how to diagnose your food intolerances. I find that diagnosing it rather than just taking everything out of your diet and not testing it, is really important to diagnose it, put everything back in and see how you react because you don't want to be avoiding something you actually don't need to avoid. And the diagnosis program's a temporary programme so you expanded diet after that.   Tahnee: (50:51) I'm curious as to your thoughts on those IG, I'm going to probably get this wrong IG protein allergy tests. Do you know what I'm talking about?   Karen Fischer: (51:00) Yeah.   Tahnee: (51:00) Am I making sense? Yes. Because it's really interesting you say that. I did a lot of elimination diets in the early days trying to work out what was going on before I knew the gluten factor and that was useful because I sort of isolated gluten as being a problem. But then I went and saw a naturopath probably, I don't know, a year or two later and she told me I was allergic to like the whole world through one of those IG panels. And I was like, "God how am I going to function?" Because it was everything. It was eggs, I was vegetarian at the time, but it was chicken. It was heaps of different fruits. I mean, I literally remember it being broccoli. Like it was so many things and I remember thinking, "God, I'm basically going to be eating, like you're saying, rice and beans for the rest of my life."   Karen Fischer: (51:44) Yeah.   Tahnee: (51:46) But I turned out to not really be relevant to me. I've ended up being able to eat all those. I ate everything now without exception, except for McDonald's but yeah. It's like, I don't eat crap, but yeah. If I'd gone off of that, I would've lived my life rather miserably. My understanding now is that that tests where you're at, which is you're in a highly inflammatory reactive state and you're reacting to things, but it's not necessarily a end of the world life sentence that you're stuck with that.   Karen Fischer: (52:18) Yeah, absolutely. So that type of allergy testing is probably the one that doctors don't believe in, but the one that the doctors do believe in the IgE testing, it has its limitations as well because they tested the same amount of people say with an egg allergy, they did a skin prick test and they also did a blood, another test, which was a patch test that had a immediate response and a delayed response. And they got completely different results. 60% of people react to the skin prick test and with the patch test, not a lot of people reacted, but then later like hours later, the patch test 82% of people reacted. So it's amazing. Every test kind of has different things. So 25, 20 or so percent of people who had an egg allergy wouldn't have been diagnosed if they'd just done say a skin prick test.   Karen Fischer: (53:20) So I take any test with a grain of salt and you let your body tell you what you're reacting to. That's why I love food elimination diets. Like say, if people follow the FID programme, they take the foods out and go, "Oh wow, I don't have to take antihistamine medications anymore. I'm not itchy anymore. Oh my skin's starting to clear up." Then you know you're on the right track. But if you do the IGG test or whatever it's called and you take all those foods out of the diet and go, "Oh, I'm all better. Oh, that really worked for me. I feel different. Or hey, my symptoms are starting to reduce." Then you know you're on the right track. But if you take all the foods out of your diet and you go, "I'm no different or I'm a little worse." Then further investigation is required.   Karen Fischer: (54:08) Because I know that people with eczema, they take dairy out of the diet, they take gluten out of the diet or take wheat out of the diet or egg and they go, "Oh yeah, that helped a tiny bit or that didn't really help much at all. Diet might not be the issue. Diet's not the issue because that didn't work for me." So it was just relying on allergy testing is not usually enough. I find that if we're eating the same foods every day, we'll never know what we're reacting to. So it's rotating your diet. For one week of totally avoid grains, full stop, next week, add them in, but don't have same grains every week, every day. Don't have the same smoothie every day. Don't have the coffee every day.   Karen Fischer: (54:52) That's how I knew I reacted to caffeine because I would have a coffee or tea once a month and I'd feel achy on that day or the day after and I'd go, "Oh, that's the caffeine or that's the coffee." Or else I'd probably be achy and arthritic every day and not know. And if I was having coffee and red wine, because those are the two things that made me go, "Ooh, that doesn't feel so good. So it's our same, same diets. In traditional diets when you eat seasonally, your diets change with the season and that's how you'd notice more what you're reacting to. But we have the same foods available every day. And that's a problem with diagnosing food intolerances because we're the same.   Tahnee: (55:37) And so you've mentioned a couple of times that these, like say you do do a food elimination diet and you end up, "Okay, amines are a problem for me, but that isn't a life sentence." When would someone feel confident to start experimenting with bringing those things back in? I believe you talk about this in The Eczema Diet book, because I think it's the FID diet's written up in that. Yeah. Could you speak a little bit to that as well? How do you know when it's okay to start experimenting?   Karen Fischer: (56:06) Well, I feel like as soon as your symptoms totally get better or partially get better, that's the time to reintroduce and I say, look, reintroduce just... You've just got to maybe once a month, just test stuff. I like to, if I go to a cafe go, "Oh, I feel like eating this today."   Tahnee: (56:26) It's experiment day.   Karen Fischer: (56:31) [crosstalk 00:56:31]. Exactly. So I will generally do it when I'm out with friends and I just want to eat something. But I say, if you're really stressed, if you're having a bad day, if you're really stressed, if you're under pressure, that's not a good time to test foods. But if you're really relaxed, if you're laughing with your friends, that's a really great time to try something and just try small amounts because you want to win. So with the initial testing phase, you eat big amounts of stuff to see if you get results. And I'm in two minds about doing that, because I'm like, "Well you want to win." So I know that for me, if I drink a glass of soy milk, I react to it. But if there's a little bit of soy hidden in foods, I'm fine. So I'm like, "I'm not sensitive to soy." Because with your mind stuff, you shouldn't go, "Yeah, I can't have this, this and this." So I'm like, "I'm not sensitive to soy when it's in sensible amounts."It's about testing at the right times when you feel happy and when you're laughing.   Karen Fischer: (57:40) Some brain retraining techniques involve eating while laughing and smiling while cooking and things like that. It's about not going, "Oh my God. Okay. I'm going to try this and I might react. Okay. I'll notice and if I'm looking for a reaction, I'm going to eat it and look for a reaction." Don't do that. Just don't do that, go, "You know what, I feel great." Visualise eating it maybe for a couple of days beforehand, be really happy and relaxed. So you want to win so you want to do it in low amounts when you're happy.   Tahnee: (58:15) This reminds me a lot of that holiday phenomenon where people can go to Italy and suddenly eat pasta three times a day and not die, but they come home and they can't eat anything. So much of it is how we are when we're digesting and how we...   Tahnee: (58:31) I actually had an experience that is really indicative of this. I didn't eat dairy for probably close to 10 years and then I was at work really stressed, really busy and decided to have a banana smoothie and it came out of me in about two seconds. It was a milk banana smoothie and it was the same thing, it was a whole whatever, half a litre of milk or something, whatever it was, a cafe sized banana smoothie. I was hyper stressed. I hadn't eaten in, I don't know, probably close to 12 hours because I was at work and busy and drinking coffee all morning and then I hadn't had dairy in 10 years. My body's just going like, "What is this?" And then over time I started to creep it in slowly and now I can have it, no problem. So yeah, it's very same thing.   Karen Fischer: (59:17) That's a good example, a really great example. Yes. It's [crosstalk 00:59:21] and it's gradual and sneaking it into the body. It's like, "Oh, look at that nice flower. Look at this. Oh, beautiful sky today." And it's [crosstalk 00:59:32]. It's all about not making a big deal about it as well and being in a good place.   Tahnee: (59:37) Yeah, well that's, I think that mindset thing and I was going to touch on quickly with teenagers because I know you've had two, or you've got one and you've had one, and acne because it's such a common phenomenon in young people and I'm just curious as to your advice to parents who might be listening, how to navigate that time obviously there's the hormonal factors, teenagers don't usually want to eat particularly healthily. It's all the stress of being a teenager.   Karen Fischer: (01:00:12) [crosstalk 01:00:12].   Tahnee: (01:00:12) Yeah. I'm just curious about that because I'm still 10 years away from that, but I'm interested in what you think, how we can navigate that.   Karen Fischer: (01:00:22) [crosstalk 01:00:22] primarily for that.   Tahnee: (01:00:24) Getting organised.   Karen Fischer: (01:00:25) Well, teenagers and adults in traditional societies that don't eat the crap that we eat, they don't get acne. And that really does sum it up. And there's research showing four year olds are getting acne, which is ridiculous.And I know that whenever-   Tahnee: (01:00:41) Wow, okay.   Karen Fischer: (01:00:43) Yeah. And I mean, look, my kids don't eat a perfect diet. They do most of the time, but when it's holidays and I just want to spoil my son or he steals, we only have chocolate in the fridge over the holidays and he... I spoil him a bit and I actually [crosstalk 01:00:58] chocolate. And I know if he eats a whole block of chocolate, he'll have a little spot the next day and I'm like chocolate is a big one because of all the fats in it as well. So things in moderation. And teenagers, they're away from home, they are eating a lot of crappy foods and they're really stressed.   Karen Fischer: (01:01:16) So look, I do a lot of marketing health food to kids and with teenagers, you just appeal to their vanity. It's like mention that, "Oh yeah, these are the pimple foods and these are the healthy skin foods." It's like, "Yeah, chocolates a pimple food so maybe just have it only one day a week and hey, why don't you have this instead? Why don't you make yourself this oat milk smoothie, we'll put some cacao in it or we'll put some berries in it as well, maybe we'll make a blueberry and smoothie instead. And that can be your sweet treat instead of chocolate." So it really, really is diet related, really is stress related as well.   Karen Fischer: (01:02:02) I know with my kids, I took the pressure off them achieving well at school. I know that my son went to this high pressure school that gets you ready for high school two years before high school and he couldn't cope with it. And he was anxious and he was vomiting in the morning and all stressed out. And I just, I could not get him out from under the bed to go to school some days. It was actually really stressful for me. And it was an awful, awful time and I just went, "You know what, I'm never going to pressure him to, because he's an anxious type, I'm never going to pressure him to do well at school." I was like, "I just want him to not hide under the bed and to not be so nervous in the tummy that he's vomiting." So I mean, he doesn't do that anymore. He's totally fine, loves school. I'm like as long as he does his homework, great, but I don't care if he's smart or not smart or...   Karen Fischer: (01:02:56) It's like with my daughter, I was like... We got tutoring for her because she wasn't very smart. And I didn't pressure her to do well in high school, but she ended up getting amazing grades and got into the top architectural university in Sydney, Sydney Uni [crosstalk 01:03:12] end up doing it, because she chose something else. But I was like, that was self motivation. And gosh, she was a nightmare that one in year 12 because she was so motivated, she was crying. And I was like, "Oh." Kids are under so much pressure to do well. So I, for me, mental wellbeing is top of the list for teenagers and children, teaching them how to love themself and care about themself and to have goals, but to not work themselves up into this crazy state as well. And I guess that's just long term chatting with your kids because I know my parents never chatted to me about that stuff.   Karen Fischer: (01:03:55) I was a really anxious teenager and I cut a fringe to cover the pimples on my forehead in high school because I was this super stressed out teenager. So yeah, don't be like my parents talk to your kid, talk to them about stuff. It's like, I would've loved to have been taught how to put on makeup when I was a teenager. So I could hide all the horrible bits. And I think that would've helped me to cope better, just talking about stuff and asking, "How are you going at school?" A kid will always go, "Yeah, fine." I mean, I did that and my son does that and I'm like. It's kind of maybe play video games with them because that's probably when they're going to open up about stuff, do something they love, sit side by side-   Tahnee: (01:04:41) Like get on their level, yeah.   Karen Fischer: (01:04:43) Get on their level, talk to them because they could be really stressed out on the inside and we need to know as parents because just if they can confide in you that instantly calms their nervous system and helps them to calm down is that connection of, "Wow. My mom really or my dad really knows me. I know I can tell them anything if I get into trouble, if I get stuck out in the middle or in the middle of the night, I can call and go, hey, can you pick me up?" But yeah, so-   Tahnee: (01:05:13) God bless parents.   Karen Fische

Healthy Wealthy & Smart
568: Dr. Sylvia Czuppon: Life as a Clinician in Academia

Healthy Wealthy & Smart

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2021 39:55


In this episode, Dr. Sylvia Czuppon, Associate Professor of Physical Therapy and Orthopaedic Surgery at Washington University School of Medicine, talks about balancing her role as an academic with her role as a clinician.   More about Sylvia Czuppon:  Dr. Sylvia Czuppon received her Bachelor of Arts in Psychology in 2000, Master of Science in Physical Therapy in 2002, and her clinical Doctorate in Physical Therapy in 2011, all from Washington University. She received her Certification as an Orthopaedic Clinical Specialist from the American Board of Physical Therapy Specialties in 2010. Her work has been published in British Journal of Sports Medicine, PM&R, Physical Therapy, and Journal of Orthopaedic & Sports Physical Therapy. Dr. Czuppon is currently an Associate Professor of Physical Therapy and Orthopaedic Surgery at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, Missouri. She divides time between outpatient clinical practice treating musculoskeletal pain patients and teaching orthopaedic content in the professional DPT curriculum at Washington University. She has given local, state, and national presentations on lower extremity injury rehabilitation and return to sport. She volunteers her time educating coaches, parents, athletes, and the community about youth injury prevention strategies.   To learn more, follow Sylvia at: Twitter: @czuppons   Subscribe to Healthy, Wealthy & Smart: Website:                      https://podcast.healthywealthysmart.com Apple Podcasts:          https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/healthy-wealthy-smart/id532717264 Spotify:                        https://open.spotify.com/show/6ELmKwE4mSZXBB8TiQvp73 SoundCloud:               https://soundcloud.com/healthywealthysmart Stitcher:                       https://www.stitcher.com/show/healthy-wealthy-smart iHeart Radio:               https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-healthy-wealthy-smart-27628927   Read the Full Transcript Here:  00:03 Hey, Sylvia, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on.   00:07 Thanks for having me, Karen.   00:08 Of course, of course. And, you know, we were talking before we went on the air about, you know, not seeing people in person and going to conferences. And the last time we saw each other was in Vancouver, at the third annual World Congress of sports, physical therapy.   00:30 Yes, right. That's right. Yeah,   00:32 I think that's correct. Yeah.   00:33 I can't believe it's been that long.   00:34 I know. I know. 2019. Right. Beginning of 2019.   00:39 I think it was. Yeah, it was COVID. Year, but it was before all that stuff. Yeah, yeah,   00:43 exactly. And, you know, shameless plug, the fourth annual World Congress on sports. PT is going to be outside of Copenhagen in August of 2022. Absolutely. So I encourage people to try and and your fingers crossed, it'll work. I keep saying 2022. It's gonna be the year. So shameless plug for that. Now, let's move into you. So today, we're going to be talking about life as a clinician and academia. And I love this topic, because I think there's a lot of clinicians out there who are wondering, well, how do I get into academia? How do I how do I do that? So why don't you give the listeners a little bit more about your background and how you did it? Sure. Yeah. So   01:38 I've been fortunate to be on faculty at Washington University in St. Louis for 15 years now. I think, approximately, it's been a while. And yeah, I sometimes I'm like pinching myself. I'm like, How is time flown that way? How 15 years? Yeah. 15 years? I graduated in 2002. So yeah, yeah, it is, oh, my gosh, I   02:05 can't believe it, I can't believe it.   02:07 So. So when I, when I joined the faculty, honestly, it was it was a nice, it was a nice mix of events. When I came out of PT school, I knew I wanted to do a little bit of teaching, but the Washington University at least, recommends that you have about a year of clinical practice under your belt before you join an academic institution. Like lab assisting. So that's how I got my start, I started lab assisting in classes that had orthopedic content. And when a position on the faculty opened up, I, I basically jumped at the opportunity got lucky enough to be hired. And away I went. So when I first started, my split, I think was 90% of my time was in clinical practice. And about 10% of my time was in, it was in teaching and it was all a lab assisting. And over the years, that is at has morphed considerably. I'm about 5050 right now. So I spent 20 hours a week in the clinic and 20 hours a week, teaching or doing teaching related things. And it's been a I don't think I'll ever go below that. But who knows what will happen. But I like that balance that I've struck right now, I can't ever see myself coming completely out of the clinic into teaching, like some of my colleagues have done, you know, you go to PT school to become a clinician, you don't go to become an educator, otherwise I go to, you know, to get my teaching degree. And I think that's probably been one of the biggest challenges is I am a PT, learning how to provide high quality education without an education degree. So there's been a bit of a learning curve associated with that as well.   03:42 And what do you feel are the advantages of being a clinician and, and working in academia? So what does your clinician hat bring to your students?   03:55 Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting. So, um, as a clinician, what is nice is I can give them I don't want to call it real world application, but it really is. So they students, we teach them in the ideal scenario, like, Okay, your your patient comes in, they have this positive test this positive test this positive test, what must be their diagnosis? Is any patient ever that cookie cutter clean No, 99% of the time, they're not right. So we teach our students in the best case scenario, the easiest ways to understand and so being a clinician, I can still give them a little bit of perspective, but like, here's where the gray areas come in. And this is why we teach you that ideal scenario so that you recognize the ideal, but here's how you can kind of think more with the clinical hat on it's a little bit similar to being like a clinical instructor. I think that's the greatest part about being a clinical instructor and shameless plug for those of you that are out there that are not clinical instructors. We need a lot more of them there. You know, our students are. It's such a rewarding experience. It really is. It's time consuming, don't get me wrong, but it is very, very rewarding, but I'm so be so being a clinician and being able to, to give the clinical the true clinical perspective on some of the things that students is learning, I think can be, can be invaluable. Like I have students all the time. They're like, Sylvia, this this sounds like a load of hooey like this doesn't even make sense, like help me understand when I would ever do this, and to be able to tell them look, you know, this is exactly why you need to know this level of detail, or this is why as a, even though, you are determined to go into sports, physical therapy, or you're determined to go into orthopedics. This is why you need to understand neuro for example, like, this is why they teach you neuro related things. I think I posted on Twitter, you know, like a couple of weeks ago, I've been to patients this year, that I think I'm, you know, not to toot my own horn or anything, but it's unfortunate, these people fell through the cracks, I think, in referring them out, both of them have gotten a diagnosis of ALS that nobody caught before this point. And it was based on what history they had given me, as well as some of the signs and symptoms that I saw with it within them. They referred to me like one had scoliosis, and horrible back pain, and another one that was a total knee replacement. And those are not diagnoses, you would expect to have ALS diagnoses associated with them. But some of the other things they were describing, it was terrifying. And just, again, like these are things to help students understand that they all do go together, you're treating a person that doesn't come in with a strict diagnosis, you're treating a whole person. And they don't always get that in the education setting when we're giving them fabricated cases.   06:27 Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's, that's amazing, by the way, from a clinical standpoint, that you were able to refer them to the right people to get the right diagnosis. Yeah. And that's, you know, and again, that's where physical therapists come in. And I'm sure that this is part of your teaching to your students that, you know, we can be that kind of primary care provider, you know, and even the second opinion,   06:56 sure, sure, yeah. And it is, it is one of those, you know, Missouri is not a direct access state. And so it's interesting, like teaching in a non direct access state, because we do typically get the patients they have the referral, it's generally pretty accurate, but you get some of these that fall through the cracks. And it's why we get the training that we get as physical therapists, you know, for those scenarios. But even again, in a non direct access state, these patients had been screened by other physicians, and it possibly just the complexities of their care, it just things got missed. So   07:33 amazing. Well, now, let's talk about what your responsibilities are, as a clinician, educator, so if you want to break it apart clinician educator, separately, or just let because I think it's important if people are interested in in, going in this direction, they need to know what it entails and what their responsibilities. Sure.   07:59 So I think it's a little bit different if you're so so my position is a faculty member means that I split my my time, assume a 40 hour work week, you know, nobody who actually works that when they're a faculty member on any any academic program, but, um, so I split my time for many people that come from a physician, whether lab assistant, in addition to holding a full time job, that's usually hours, in addition to whatever your hours are in a week. So when I was working as a lab assistant, before I joined faculty, I was working 40 hours a week plus lab assisting X number of hours a week, so there was a little bit of that, because very few employers will give you that time off and say, Oh, you want to live six, eight hours, we sure only work 32 hours here, like, it's very difficult to get that. And then depending on when the classes are during the day. So we have labs from like one to three, some people couldn't do that it's smack in the middle of prime, you know, treating hours. So that is definitely a consideration that people want to make. If you're working part time, it becomes a whole lot easier. Your schedules are a lot more flexible, as a faculty member, so I have 20 hours a week, again, dedicated to patient care, 20 hours for teaching. So in my patient care responsibilities, I basically have a set schedule that is has to be designed around the times that I'm supposed to be in class. So that has to probably be the worst for the person for my for my clinic boss who has to come up with the clinic schedule. He's working around everybody's class schedules and the times that we can actually physically be in the clinic. And so I treat in our clinic, we have a one on one model, so we don't overlap patients, you know, and so that's, that's really nice. We do have physical therapy assistants that we work with as well. And so I balance my caseload, I feel like any like I would anywhere else, I have autonomy to decide when I want to delegate when the patient needs, needs to come back to CV, frequency, duration, all of those kind of standard, standard types of things. Um, I am fortunate because I've been there long enough that I do get a little bit of flexibility and asking for the patient. Two types that I want to see. So I love the postoperative knees and any knee, really. So I do get a little bit more of those than maybe some others do seniority, it's great. And then my academic hat is complicated. So I'm depending on what semester in the year that we're in. And we're also going through a curriculum renewal right now, which is a whole nother whole nother topic of discussion. But in some semesters, I am a course master for for a class. And so that entails doing everything you would expect from a course to making sure the syllabus is up to date, to organizing exams, practicals, lab assistants, supplies, outside lectures, patient labs, etc. to an other the other semester I am, quote, unquote, just a course assistant, so facilitating the course master with all of those duties. So those hours are kind of wrapped up in our actual academic time. So if I have 20 hours a week, and I'm only in lab for 12 hours, my other eight hours are supposed to be spent doing all these other behind the scenes things which are, which easily kind of add up. So it is a little bit of a mix, and the curriculum renewal that I was talking about. So Wash U is going towards more of competency based education, which I think is the movement in education as a whole. And so we're we're in the beginning stages of that our first year classes going through the start of our new revised curriculum, and I am helping to craft the second year curriculum. So that's a huge task, taking what we currently have reorganizing it, restructuring it into an even better product than what we currently have. So there's a lot going on, that is certainly more than 20 hours a week. So yeah.   11:49 And can you explain competency based education versus what's currently happening? I don't know if that's like opening a huge can of worms. But let's go for   11:59 Yeah, yeah. It's also challenging my my full understanding of this, because it's all it's all this is like a complete foreign language. It's like going through, as I as I kind of alluded to earlier, I'm going through, I'm becoming like, I feel like I'm going through to get my education degree in the process of learning how to teach the this material better. So with the competencies, it's essentially like saying, Okay, you're competent in gosh, there's domains, there's, there's all sorts of terminology, but basically saying that, like, okay, that you have this one domain of patient and client care, within that you have different competencies, like, I'm able to take a, I'm making stuff up, because I don't know them off the top my head, but like, able to take a complete history for like, able to do communicate with respect and dignity for the patient and care provider, like things like that. So there's different things that this student is now having to pass and show competence in these competencies, a pass individual competencies, versus getting a grade in a class to say, you're good enough for that grade, it could be really strong in one area, but really not great and another, but their overall grade is enough to move them forward. We want to kind of raise the bar a little bit and say, You know what, that was good. But we can do better. And taking it to like each one of these competencies you need to pass in order to continue on curriculum. Got it?   13:15 Got it? Well, that makes actually makes a lot of sense.   13:19 Does now trying to make every lesson plan, every lecture that you give mapped to every competency that you have is a whole nother topic of discussion. Yeah,   13:32 good luck. Yes. Yeah. Good luck with that. And now something that you kind of alluded to before, which I want to dive into is, so your 20 hours practice care, 20 hours teaching, and I put 20 hours in quotation marks, right? So we know as clinicians, it's always more than 20 hours, right? And in teaching Gosh, it's definitely more than maybe what you signed up for. So how do you and here comes the question, how do you balance all of that with the rest of your life? Because you've got kids?   14:09 I've got two teenagers. Yes, got a dog.   14:12 I've got two dogs, actually two dogs, you've got a home, you have got a life outside of all of this. So what do you do to balance it all?   14:22 Yeah, so that was probably the most challenging thing that if I could have gone back in time and talk to my younger self, I would have been like, don't say yes to everything. That was probably the first thing that nobody really ever told me. Because I thought that if I said, No, nobody would ever asked me to do anything again, you know, you feel like this. Oh, this is a fantastic opportunity. I don't know where the time is gonna come out of but I really want to do it. And so I just started I would say at the time yes to pretty much anything that sounded interesting. And even yes to some things that I was like, I'm not sure if this is what I want to do, but I feel like if I don't say yes, I'm going to lose this. They're going to think I'm not interested in it. Think so, naively when I was when I was a younger faculty, um, that's what I did, I said yes to literally everything and almost put myself in a horrible spiral of I had so many issues in terms of that work life balance, I didn't have any it was work, work work. And then life was like a tiny fraction of that. And that was when my kids were little, I've got teenagers that are 17 and 14 now. Um, but what I discovered over the years was that those opportunities are at least and I still believe this, if those opportunities were meant to be, they're going to come around again, if people really want you, they value your expertise and your knowledge and your skill set, they will come asking around again. And you know, just saying no, one time, and just even saying like, No, you know, what, now is not the right time, I'd love to help you out. Can you come back again, like, you know, if you have another project, just ask me. I mean, hopefully I'll have time at that point, you know, there's no, there's good ways to not just firmly shut the door right to leave that still open. Um, so I've found a better balance for myself now, because I've figured out what is super important for me, and what is not, like really important. So I started saying no to different class commitments that I had previously done, because it was it was stuff that was okay. But it was not my passion in teaching. And so I started whittling down to the things that that made me honestly, the maybe the most happy to think about teaching or be involved in. And when I started doing that, I did become happier with with how that balance was shaping up, because some of that work really wasn't work anymore. You were enjoying doing it, versus looking at it and saying, Man, I got three more hours of this that I've got to prepare for, and I'm just not feeling it. You know, there's a reason nobody's ever asked me to be an anatomy lab assistant. And it's, I mean, enjoy anatomy. Don't get me wrong, but the level of detail I just, that would that was not my forte. No, that was not my forte. And it's like, I want to know the applications and things that I'm interested in. But some of the things that they have to learn for PT school, it just wasn't wasn't in my wheelhouse. You know? Yeah. So it's like, things like that, where, where I just prioritize a little bit better.   17:06 Yeah. And I was gonna follow up question I was going to ask is, How did you? Like, what methods did you use to decide what was best for you? And what methods did you use to break down? Like, no, like, this is a No, maybe not forever? But uh, no, for now, this might be a no forever. This isn't a solid? Yes. Do you know what I?   17:30 Yeah, yeah, it wasn't in certainly not easy. Um, it came again, across several, several years to try to figure that out. So part of it came down to okay, I was lab assisting in multiple classes. And did I really want to stay lab assisting in that context? If the context, if there was a, there was an immediate hesitation in my answer, then I thought, okay, that can't be the number one priority that I really want to stay in that class. So then I started adding up hours, and how many hours a week? Or really, am I spending in that class? What could I replace it with? Um, is there another opportunity right now that I want to replace it with? So it was sort of like, figuring out the timing of things would be one thing? And then some of it was just just deciding, okay, well, I know it's gonna throw me over the, the 20 hours or whatever that I have right now. Am I okay with that for a little while. And for a period I was and then now that I'm older, I'm not, you know, I've got I've got a, I've got a teenager that's going to be leaving the house in two years. And I've decided, you know, what this would, this is the time I actually I want to spend with her, you know, not that I didn't want to spend it with her as a little kid. But now I'm like, feeling that like, empty nest feeling starting to grow. And I'm like, I don't want to miss, you know, all the things that she's doing. And, and so I've just prioritize, you know, what, no, I'm gonna say no to that. Or I'm gonna say, you know, I can't do this this year, or I can only do this for part of the time, like, admissions committee, you know, figuring out who we accepted to our program. Like, well, I can't do it the whole year, but I can do it for part of the year Will that be okay, you know, and try to work out compromises with the people that are there looking for my time.   19:11 I love it. And, you know, so often women have such a hard time with this. Yes, you know, yes. Because we think if we say no, like you said, That's it, we're done, or we're gonna be labeled difficult, or, you know, someone that you know, she doesn't, she's not interested. We'll never get back to that. Right. So I think it's, as a woman, we really have to kind of get over that kind of thinking and and realize like, Hey, if you say it's a no for now, but not a no forever and the people are like, Oh, God, she was setting it up, well, then they're probably not your people. Right? And that's okay to let that go as well. Right.   19:52 I think what also complicates it a little bit is this whole Superman thing, right, like women that believe they can literally do everything. So you've got to be the best parent, you've got to be the volunteer at all the PTO, whatever school stuff, the sporting team, the in then at school, and then it works the same thing, I got to be able to handle this whole load and show nobody a crack in my facade, you know, so that they can see that I can do it, you know, and if I do you crack, then they're gonna think that I'm weaker, you know, just stereotypes that way. I think that's obviously it's really unfortunate that that still exists. Um, but, uh, I, we're not super human, like we have, you know, we have breaking points too. And we need to know what those are for ourselves for our own sanity, you know, for the sanity of our family members, our friends, all the people around us, you know, the pets, yo, all of that. So,   20:43 yeah, and your students as well, like Have, have you ever kind of displayed that vulnerability, whether it be to your employer, obviously, your family, and that's a different story, but maybe to your employer or to the university, to say like, I'm reaching a breaking point. And so how did you do that?   21:04 Yeah, definitely. to the employer. Um, yeah. So So there have been times where and unfortunate our program director, gammon Earhart is amazing. And her predecessor, the CCD singer, was was great, too. And they've always been wonderful with this sort of open door policy. So when you hit that point, or you feel like you're coming up to that point, I felt 100% comfortable going to them and saying, Hey, guys, look, I am, I'm over my head right now. And I don't know what to do. Like, I really need some help. And they kind of talk you down a little bit and say, Okay, well, how can we make this better, I have been very fortunate to be supported in that role. Same thing with even my immediate supervisors within the clinic. Same kind of idea. I had some personal struggles earlier this year, unrelated to COVID. And having and knowing that I had that support system, by being in a good place, I think this is true of any job. But being in a in a in a supportive environment, where they were like, take the time that you need to get your your self. Right. You know, it was it was very nice to know that I had that kind of support.   22:12 Yeah. And so I think the moral here is, it's okay. Absolutely, to let people know that you're not okay. And it's okay to be vulnerable. And if you're the people you're working with or for don't accept that, then I think it's a clear sign to say, Well, wait, wait a second, what am I doing here?   22:38 Right, right. Yeah. And I would love to say like that, I have been fantastic. And always being vulnerable. That is definitely a lie. Nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody is and I, I, you know, grew up in a, in a, in a household where perfection was like, required, it wasn't even, you know, it was it was an expectation, just as you know, my hair is black. And it will say, well, it's gray now, but that it'll say one color like it was the expectation you will be perfect you will be you will not show or have any flaws. So bringing that into a scenario like I am in right now and telling somebody I'm not like I'm vulnerable, I'm hurting, I need help, like even asking for help was was a huge, huge deal for me. But again, I had I had a good support structure, even within my workplace environment to allow me to do that.   23:24 Yeah. And it is, it's hard to ask for help, you know, because because you don't want people to think you can't handle it. All. Right. Right. Right. So asking for help is I know, I have a really hard time asking for help. But I'm getting better at it. Yeah. But it is, it's hard to reach out, it's hard to ask for help. Because you're afraid that someone will maybe think of you as less than or incapable or whatever, you know, all those bad things that spin around in your head, right?   23:55 Or just that if they're thinking about asking you to help out with something that you really want to do, they're not going to ask you anymore, right? Like, you know, and kind of where I'm at as a as an associate professor trying to rise to the professor level in a couple of years, trying to take a larger leadership role in our curriculum, there was definitely a fear of well, wow, if I tell them that I can't handle what I've got right now. There's no way they're going to ask me to do X, Y, or Z. So do I risk doing that? Or do I just drown? And I wasn't willing to drown? No, no, no job is worth that. My personal happiness was not worth that. And again, fortunately, everybody was very understanding the the fear that I had built up in my head was no near nowhere near what I experienced at all. Like it wasn't there. They were like, You know what, we get it. Take the time that you need, it's fine. We'll figure it out. And we'll help you figure it out. We'll give you whatever resources you need, whatever support you need. So it was wonderful. It's really wonderful.   24:47 Yeah. And it's so important to kind of voice that because like you said, you're trying to kind of climb up this academic ladder. So if you never voiced that maybe you would never, you would never reach that Professor level. because you would have burned out left. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. So why not put those fears out there and and find the things that like not to use Marie Kondo here. I don't know if you know Marie Kondo she's so Marie Kondo is like this organizational guru. And her thing is if it doesn't bring you joy, get rid of it. Yeah. And so I wrote that down when you were talking about how, you know, anatomy lab, not for me doesn't bring me joy. This does. So I'm sticking with this. And and what you find is when you do the things that bring you joy, this sort of Marie Kondo method, I mean, she doesn't like, you know, does this shirt bring you joy? And if it doesn't know, this book, this, you know, tchotchke, whatever it is, but you can you can apply those principles, I think, in this scenario, when deciding what to say yes, and what to say no to? And even if you have nothing else on your plate at the moment, you can still say   25:58 no, sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right.   26:02 You can still say no, and that's okay. Absolutely, well, this oh my god, I'm so glad that we talked about this is so good. So let's, let's talk about now, I would love to get from you, maybe two or three pieces of advice that you would give to a clinician who's trying to break into the world of academia. Yeah,   26:27 so, um, I think with with clinicians, the first thing is that you've, you've got to know what your, what kind of teaching you want to do, right. So like, if you're, if you're an orthopedic just being happy with, I'll take any orthopedic class, that could take you from going geometry and manual muscle testing, to examination and treatment kind of thing. So knowing sort of what level you want to be involved in helps. Because when you're then approaching the education division director of a program, that's usually who you send your resume or your CV to, when you're interested, they can have a better idea of whether there's a need honestly, in the in the curriculum, for another lab assistant for another lecture, if there are certain topics that you know very well, that you are passionate about, that he would love to lecture on. I'm even offering that up, like, hey, you know, I have a special interest in blood flow restriction training, but I'd love to be able to share that with your students. You know, this is my experience and background with that, let me know if there's there's any any availability for that, I think that's that's another part of it. I do think that it is, um, it is nice if you have a connection to the school, I mean, obviously, like, I got fortunate, I graduated from Washington at school, I'm now in faculty here. So I already had a connection to the program, it made it easier for me to get my foot in the door, because they already knew me as a student. And then as a clinician, because I was in the area. I do believe it is harder when you don't have those connections. But that's where I think networking in general is huge, right? So like you and I, we met through the Twitter verse, and then of course in Vancouver, but like making connections because people that you connect with have connections elsewhere, right. And they might know, just in talking to you. They might say, Oh, wait, I remember Sylvia said that they were looking for X, Y or Z at their at Wash U, maybe you should reach out and talk to her and see if there's anything going on. You know, I think connections are the other part that that people value, but you don't necessarily value maybe as much as you should. As a clinician, I think I take for granted that. And I don't know, if you feel the same way, we travel a lot, we get to go to a lot of conferences, we get to get a lot of all these pre COVID, we went to a lot of conferences. And that's where a lot of the networking happened, right. Clinicians do have to take continuing education in order to keep their their licenses active. But I feel like clinicians are probably taking the cheap local easy place near them to take on it because they don't probably have the benefit, always a funding behind it like I do at an academic institution. And I think that's, you know, you do what you have to do, but finding other ways to network, whether it's through your state organization, like the Missouri Physical Therapy Association here, through the national organization through some of the sections like sports section, ortho section, you know, getting involved that way to make connections, you don't have to attend conferences to do this, but you can get involved. I mean, everything's through zoom right now, you know, and so being involved that way to make connections can get you in the door in other ways. And I think that's probably an underappreciated part of the whole, how do I get my foot in the door?   29:41 Yeah, I would agree with that. And I love all the options that you just gave for clinicians and even students who are thinking, hey, one day I want to do both. Sure, right. So let's know what kind of teaching you want to do. Reach out to people in the school if you have a connection if you don't have a connection start making those connections. Absolutely right. And as a student, I think connecting through whether it's a PTA in general, or the components or your state is a great way to do that. And I would also say, stay in touch with the with your professors.   30:17 100% 100%. Yeah, I mean, and your clinical instructors as well, I mean, for me, my first job coming out of PT school, was because I went back to talk to one of my clinical instructors, and she's like, Hey, by the way, we have a job opening, would you be interested in applying? And I said, Oh, I'm not sure. And she goes, Well, I already submitted your name. And literally, that's how I landed, my first job was like, Okay, well, I guess I have to like, contact them now. So it was great. Yeah.   30:41 Yeah. I love it. I love it. Okay, so now, as we start to kind of wrap things up, is there anything that maybe we didn't hit in the conversation that you came in? Like, ooh, I definitely want to talk about this. Did we miss anything?   30:55 The one thing I will say is, is being on faculty, what did help me was naturally meshing and getting myself a mentor on the faculty. So not all academic institutions, like I know why she didn't have it at the time. They didn't really have like sort of a mentoring program for new faculty joining. And I don't know if this is true for all academic institutions. But for anybody that's interested in doing that, or joining an academic institution, as a clinician, academic, or as a researcher academic, is understanding if there is some kind of mentoring program because without the guidance of my mentor, Marcy Harris, Hayes, there is no way I'd be where I was at today, Marcy was like, kind of like my voice of reason, she was the one that was just like, Okay, you your interests are like humongous Sylvia, you need to narrow it down a little bit, you cannot keep saying yes to everything. She was the one that pushed me in certain directions, because she knew that a gentle nudge would help me get to where I wanted to be, even if I didn't want to take that leap for myself. If I was doubting myself, she would be the one that would say, you can you can do this. She was the first person that put me in front of a crowd of 300 people at CSM. So I have a lot to say, and I never would have, I genuinely never would have done that without for encouragement. And her understanding that I was ready for it. As well as it was something that was going to help me in the future. And that I'd appreciate it later on down the line versus my fear, again, of doing it on my own, would have prevented me from getting that far. So so definitely identifying a mentor. And again, this is for clinicians, even to in the clinic, like don't go into a clinic, and just expect to just learn it all just on your own or through Con Ed guy, I would hope that whatever clinic somebody joins into, has some kind of mentoring program as well. So that you can learn you can shadow you can get experience from other people. And it's different than just being able to say to your your pod mate, hey, I had this patient that was a little complicated. What do you think like truly having a mentor, I think is a big, big thing. To help enhance the level of clinician you are as well as again, if you're an academia, how to get up that level ladder and how to navigate it to I think that was the other thing Marcy gave me was some advice on how to how to get a little bit further because she was ranked ahead of me, and she had some great personal experience. Pros and cons, I guess you could say, to navigate that.   33:25 I love it. I think that's great advice. And I love how you said not only get up the ladder, but navigate it as well. Right? Because there's a lot of things that are gonna push and pull you along each rung of that ladder. Absolutely. So I think that's amazing advice. Okay, where can people find you if they need a mentor? Or they have questions?   33:47 Yeah, so Twitter's the easiest place. So I think you've got my contact information, but I am on Twitter, and an email is perfectly fine as well. So they can find my email address just to the washi website. Or really, if you just Google my name, it's pretty impossible to miss. There's not that many Soviet coupons out in the world. There's none, in fact, so it's pretty easy to find me I come up readily on a Google search.   34:10 Excellent. And we will have all the all of those links in the show notes. And now I have a question that I asked everyone at the end, but you already answered it, but I'm gonna ask it again. And that's what advice would you give to your younger self?   34:27 Yeah, totally. My younger self would be learn how to say no, and how to prioritize what you really want to do. prioritize what's going to make you happy. What's going to make you the clinician, the person that you wanted to be when you grew up, you know, because if you sacrifice what you want for what everybody else wants, you're not going to be happy. Perfect, I   34:52 love it. Thank you so much. I appreciate this conversation so much. I appreciate you for coming on. This was wonderful. So thank you so much.   35:00 Yeah, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to be on I appreciate it   35:03 too, of course, and hopefully we will see each other in person soon. That   35:07 would be fantastic. Indeed, indeed. All right, and everyone,   35:10 thank you so much for listening, have a great couple of days and stay healthy, wealthy and smart.

The Fit in Faith Podcast
Smart Hustle in Entrepreneurship with Ramon Ray

The Fit in Faith Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2021 53:44


This human being who I got connected with on Breakfast with Champions makes me smile on the regular with his heart. I want to introduce you to the one and only celebrity CEO, Ramon Ray, with smarthustle.com and the Smart Hustle podcast. He's a smart hustler, and if you don't know what that means, and you also know my aversion to that word he actually flips the script on me and I kinda like it.  We discuss being a PK kid, being an entrepreneur, being a risk taker, being a faith driven mission-servant leader and armor bearer. Gosh, the conversation is so good and I know it's going to bless you. So if it does, will you tag Ramon and his Smart Hustle,  and perhaps even do the most amazing extra thing for me, Tamra Andrews, with a big, big podcast review. I am on a mission to get 200 reviews on Apple, Spotify, or on any of the listening platforms. And it would be a great way to share your gratitude and give me a little Christmas present in the process.   Ready to walk into 2022 with a new level of knowledge and inspiration? Come join me for one of my coaching opportunities!  https://www.fitinfaithmedia.com/coaching   Grow for God 2022 registration is OPEN! Special ticket prices through 12/31! https://www.fitinfaithmedia.com/grow-for-god-con  

I Survived Theatre School
Heather Gilbert

I Survived Theatre School

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2021 60:27


Interview: Boz talks to Heather Gilbert about training and working as a lighting designer, the privilege of training in the same place you want to work, Carnegie Mellon, John Bridges, John Culbert, Theatre Communications Group, the NEA, Topdog/Underdog, Stacy Caballero, Keith Parham, analytical geometry, the alchemy of passions that compose lighting design, Trinity University,  Kendra Thulin, David Swayze, Manifest Arts Festival, The Big Funk, Steppenwolf, Suzan Lori Parks, Don Cheadle, Jeffrey Wright, Mos Def, storefront theatre, Buried Child, Everyman, The Libertine, Bar San Miguel, David Cromer, Miracle on 34th Street starring Tracy Letts, The Hypocrites, Sean Graney, The Adding Machine, Our Town, the magic of good artistic partnerships, Sam Rockwell, Sheldon Patinkin, Next to Normal at Writers Theatre, The Band's Visit on Broadway, Come Back Little Sheba at The Huntington,  Michael Halberstam, Adam Rapp's The Sound Inside at Williamstown , Studio 54, Franco Colavecchia, Nan Cibula, Bug by Tracy Letts, not apologizing, being process-oriented vs. product-oriented, Macbeth at the NY Shakespeare Festival, Angela Bassett, Alec Baldwin, Zach Braff, Liev Schreiber, Michael C. Hall, and Carrie Coon.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): Speaker 1 (0s): I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous? Okay. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me. My Speaker 2 (32s): God. I'm so Speaker 1 (33s): Excited about it. So the first thing we always say is, congratulations, Heather Gilbert, you survived theater school. I did. I did. Okay. And you really survived it with, with a flourish. I would say you're kind of fancy and a big deal Speaker 2 (52s): Is a lighting designer ever really a big deal Speaker 1 (55s): In my view. So we have a lot, the thing that I love about reading about you, and also I know you teach and you're at, but is that there is a, I would say you're a master of your craft based on what I would say that based on what I've read about you and what I know about you and your successes, and also your trajectory during school. And post-school like, if there's a master of a lighting designer, crap, you've you're, you're it. So thank you. Yeah. It's amazing to lo to, to read about you. So one of the things and people also post what you can, for me, I can tell when someone is a bad-ass at what they do, because they don't actually have to promote themselves that other people around them will post till they'll say, oh my gosh, congratulations. So that is a sign that you're a bad ass is that other people are like, I'm shouting out your name without you having, you know what I mean? Like you don't do a lot of self-promotion, Speaker 2 (1m 60s): I'm terrible at it actually, Speaker 1 (2m 1s): Which is, which is amazing that you, that you're able to anyway, other people sing your praises, which I think is like really what we all want as artists, you know? So, yeah. So, okay. So why don't you tell me like how you ended up at the theater school, where you're from, like how that went down? Speaker 2 (2m 19s): So I I'm from I'm from Michigan. I'm also from Texas. I mostly grew up in Texas. Like the important years were there and I was working after, so I went to the theater school for grad school during this super brief period of time when there was a grad degree in design, I was the first lighting designer. I came in with someone else who only lasted the first quarter. He was like super unhappy. He kind of made me, I kind of glommed on to that. And I was like, oh, are we unhappy? I'll be unhappy. I, this Speaker 1 (2m 46s): Complained about everything. Speaker 2 (2m 48s): And then he, he left after first quarter and then it was awesome because they gave me all the things that he was supposed to do. But when I came in, I wasn't, I wasn't interested in the program. If I was going to be the very first person without a cohort, a word we did not use in 1994, there was no cohort. No, we just had classmates. Right. And yeah, he, so he, so, but I knew about him and then he ended up not finishing the program. So I was actually the first lighting master's lighting student since they had left the Goodman. Speaker 1 (3m 19s): Great. Speaker 2 (3m 20s): Yeah. And I had, so I'd been working in Houston doing an internship and Kevin Rigdon, who was the, at the time the resident designer at Steppenwolf had come down and did a show production of our town, which ultimately became a very important part of my life, my adult life in my own career. And so he came down and did our town with Jose Cantero directing. There was this huge thing. And I thought Kevin was great. I thought he was funny. And I loved his work and I was really interested in it. And he was adjunct at the theater school. And he actually told me not to, he was like, don't come I'm adjuncts. And they're just starting this master's program. You kind of want to find a place that's that's has more stuff going on. And then when I decided to apply to grad school the next year, for sure, I was looking at different places and somebody gave me the advice that you should really look at the people who design the team, the design work of the people that you're going to study with, because that's what they're going to teach you. Right. Great, Speaker 1 (4m 17s): Great advice. Speaker 2 (4m 18s): It was, it was really great advice. And the other was to look at the market, right? Like look for a market that you would want to be in. Like, you can get an amazing degree in Idaho. There's actually really good programs there, but the market's not there. And I'll tell ya. I did not realize until I was a college professor. This is so like blind of like the blindness to your privilege. Right. I did not understand the benefits I had in Chicago from going to school in Chicago until I watched my students graduating into it. That's when I realized what I could do for them. And I realized what my professors did for me. Speaker 1 (4m 54s): So interesting. I mean, I think, I think we don't, we don't ever, I don't know anyone that's really hipped. Maybe kids nowadays are young adults are really hip to it, but like, yeah. I mean, I didn't think of thinking of like, okay, well what, what is the sort of the place where I'm landing and who are my connections there? But I am learning now at 46 in Los Angeles that the people that I'm really connected to here in the industry are all from Chicago. Mostly a lot of them are from the theater school. It's crazy. Speaker 2 (5m 25s): It's so interesting. I, it's funny. I've been listening to your podcasts and what I love is like, I feel like it's the best Facebook ever. It's like, so, cause I'm like, oh, listen to all these hour long interviews with people, all due respect to someone who might forgotten existed. Right. You know, like I tumbled down the whole like conversation about the religion. And I was like, oh my God, I forgot all about that. I knew I knew those people. Right. It's just not my life anymore. Right. Speaker 1 (5m 49s): I mean, I I'm. Yeah. I'm also shocked. Like we have people on that, like remember us that I have no recollection of having with. And I think I always talked it up to excessive drinking and dirt back in my day. But like, I think it's just like, that's not our life anymore. Right. We're in a different time, different lifetimes. Speaker 2 (6m 10s): I took it. There's like three levels of people there's like from school. It's like the people that I still know and have to remind myself, I went to school with like, that's the connection. I there's the people that I, that I have no idea what happened to, so I love when they're on your podcast and then there's the people who are famous. So I think that I know what they're doing. Like I have a feeling, I feel like I know what Judy is up to, but I don't know what she's up to. I just know, Speaker 1 (6m 33s): Right. That she works all the time. Then we went to school with her. Right, right. It's so funny. It's, it's a such a wild thing. Okay. So you were like, I'm going to go, Speaker 2 (6m 42s): I'm going to go to grad school. And I looked at Chicago, I looked at DePaul because I really liked Kevin. And then I also looked, I was looking really heavily at Carnegie Mellon and, and he went to, I went to one of those. It's funny. I listen to you guys talk about it with the actors. But I went to one of those, like Roundup audition, interview things in Houston. And I interviewed with both schools at the same time. And Carnegie Mellon was like, well, we've been teaching this class for 20 years. It's a great class. And we've been doing this other thing for 20 years and it's awesome. And I was like, oh my God, you're so boring. And the program is actually massive and huge and revitalized now. But I think at that moment in time, it was just not, they were had a lot of faculty had been there. And then I went to the DePaul one and I talked to John Bridges. I was like, I offer you Chicago. Like I offer you the energy of John Bridges and Chicago. And I was like, oh, this is so much more interesting to me. Yeah. You know? And then I got lucky because what I didn't know is that John Colbert is like, I call him the Clark Kent of lighting design, because he seems super mild-mannered. And he's like Superman, that guy is a genius And a master teacher. And so the fact that I got to study with him for three years and the part of it was him creating curriculum that he felt I needed, even when, and I have these moments with my students now where I'm like, this is what you need to do. And they're like, I don't think that's what I think I would do better. I think this is what I need to study. And John would be like, yeah, you need that other thing. You know, I actually, years after school, a couple of years later, I applied for a, there was a, it's funny, it's funded by the NDA. So you can't call it a, it can't be a grant or fellowship. It just has to be like a program that you're on. But it was one where the theater communications group got money from the NDA and young, like early career designers and directors to observe, assist other artists because you can't make anything. If it's the NDA. Right. It's like the rules that came out of all this stuff in the nineties. Right. And John called me up and was like, you need to apply for that. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally applied for that. I was thinking next year. Right. Like you need to apply this year. And I was like, well, yeah, but see, here's the reason and this and that thing. And he was like this year and I was like, but really I was like, you know, this next year. And I was like, this year, this year I'll do it this year. And then I got it. Speaker 1 (9m 4s): Was it amazing? It Speaker 2 (9m 5s): Was, it's an interesting thing. It was amazing in some ways. And in some ways it like slows your career down because you have to do six months worth of work within two years and you for the money and you get paid as you go, but you don't get to make anything. So it can like become a thing where you're like getting to know these amazing people and working with these amazing people. But you also, can't Speaker 1 (9m 28s): Interesting Speaker 2 (9m 29s): And make it, you know, like it slows down like what you can do as your own artist. I will say though, that, as I'm saying these words, even I'm thinking about the people that I worked with and how they function in my life and how important they'd been, like how important some of them still are Speaker 1 (9m 43s): Still in your life. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 2 (9m 45s): They gave me an extension on it as well, because that was also the time that I, I was the associate designer on the first production of top dog underdog. And that was a show that they were actually TCG was trying to get somebody in that room. And they were being like, well, we don't really want somebody to observe us. And I got offered to work on it, but I had worked with the whole team before, so they wouldn't let me do it, but they let me extend it. So they were pretty generous about like, yeah, I'll be making things happen. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And I got into DePaul and so I came to DePaul, I came up and visited and it was, Speaker 1 (10m 16s): And you, you, did you work with, was there, were you working with someone, a lighting designer at DePaul named Keith? Speaker 2 (10m 26s): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny when somebody talks about him, I don't know if it was you or Gina talking about him. We'll talk about seeing the scout, the Macbeth that we did that I did with Stacy Cabalero who I, who was my best friend from grad school. Oh yeah. When I think about grad school, like Shawna Flannigan and I were roommates for years after, but, but Stacy and I were super close. We did. So we did like so many of our shows together there and he was talking, it was it, you that he was telling that he commented on the costume. Gina was sitting next to him, but she was talking about it. She was like, and Keith param. And he was like, he was looking at it. He was like, oh my God. And I was like, I literally was listening to the podcast like, oh God, did he say something about my lights? What did he say? What did he say? Then? Then it was about Stacy. And I was like, oh, that's so funny. One of my close friends still. Speaker 1 (11m 14s): So yeah, he was the first person that made me really interested in lighting. And he, when we closed the show, the yellow boat together, he gave me a print of his drawing of the lighting, like, oh wow. With lighting. And I still got it framed. And it was, I was like, oh, well this kind, because I think personally that as actors, we're, we, we have this thing of like, our ego is like crossed all the time. So then we, we have, we have an inflated sense of ego really that we have to build. And we think that acting is the most important thing. And it was the first time it, my land that's garbage. And the first thing to person to really say, to show me like, oh my gosh, look, this is all part of a huge deal. Like I am not the huge deal that lighting is, everything has its place. And then we come together, but I was like, oh, this is, this is an art that really ties the whole show together. Like really? And it's like unsung magic. And I think a lot of actors anyway, just think that the lights up here and that nobody is behind them being the artist, creating that at least young actors, Speaker 2 (12m 30s): Young ones. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I think you're right about that in school, it's often Speaker 1 (12m 35s): Lighting for you. Like, what is it, what was it about that? Speaker 2 (12m 39s): You know, it's funny, my mother at one point was like having this big guilt thing that she had never encouraged me into it when I was younger. But like all of the signs did, like, unless you knew this was a thing, it didn't make sense. I was, I loved theater. My grandmother studied theater in New York in the thirties and she taught college. Yeah. She'd studied with a bunch of amazing people. She didn't work professionally, but, but she would take us to theater. Right. So it was a huge influence for my mother then for me. And I loved being an audience member. I never wanted to be on stage. And I haven't been a couple of times. And also now that I'm like, in my fifties, it's so much easier. Like I'm much more willing to jump off the right off the cliff and try whatever. Cause why not? What is it gonna embarrass me right now, please, please. If I didn't embarrass myself to death in my twenties, I think we're good now. You're good. So, yeah, but I, I, I just always like things that related. So I, like, I was interested in photography at one point, but I loved reading. I loved going to the theater. I have this, I was terrible in high school. It trig. I like, oh, I got like, I barely got through trigonometry class. And the second semester of the math track I was on was like analytical or spacial geometry. And it was like, I was a savant. I was like, that's what that 3d grid looks like. I can see that thing in space and I could answer, am I my teacher? And I were both like, what is up? How do I know this really have a good sense of space? And so if you look at the combo of all those things, they all really go together into lighting design. If you, if you know that thing. So when I went to undergrad, I'm in San Antonio at this small college Trinity university, super liberal artsy, sort of the opposite of your, your, what do we call them? We call academic classes and academics. I feel like we did, but they definitely, yeah. Academics. I really was. I had a lot of intense like philosophy classes and religion classes, all super helpful for the career that I have. But I also, my first semester took a intro to theater class and I loved the lighting. And then the second semester we were, I had to register dead last, like first year, dead last, you can't get anything. And a friend of mine that was in my end theater class was like, well, I'm going to, she was going to be a high school drama teacher, her name's Emily Goodpasture. And she decided that she was going to end. So Gilbert and good pasture registering last. She was like, I'm taking this sledding class. Cause I know I have to take all of the design classes and the acting classes for my future career as a drama teacher. And I think she take this learning class with me and I did. And then throughout college I would do other things, but I kept coming back to lighting. I just, I love the magic of the way light reveals form. I love looking at tons of different kinds of light bulbs. You know, my friend wants me to come to become Tik TOK famous and support us by telling people how to light their homes. Speaker 1 (15m 32s): Well, here's the thing that I, I actually, when you just said that, I have to say like, I was like, oh, I wonder what she thinks about filters and add tic-tac and the way people use light and could do you look at photos and videos and things and say, oh, that would be so much better if you just lit it like this. Are you able to do do that? Speaker 2 (15m 53s): Oh, for sure. I mean, I definitely, yeah. Most things in my life revolve around, you know, I always laugh cause I still go in theaters and look up at the lights and people are like, oh, I saw you looking at the lights. And I'm like, do you look at the actors? Of course, I look at the lights, I'm trying to figure out like the craft of what they did or you know, or what the equipment that they got to work with was, and yeah, but I can't, even though I could probably find another career with lighting that is so much more lucrative and I'm sure that that is true, right? The best part of my job for me still is that everyday when I go to work in theater, actors tell stories in front of me on stage live. And that is my favorite thing. I love going to plays. I love seeing performance and I love it live. So the fact that I get to be connected to that in some way and another character in that for me is really awesome. Speaker 1 (16m 39s): That's fantastic. And I I've never thought about it that way, that like, I mean, obviously I've thought about that a little, that the lighting is another character, but again, it's like, there are, there is a human and maybe a team of humans behind that character and that it, that you enjoy hearing the live stories being told. And that's why the theater versus, you know, film and TV, right? Like it's not, I mean, I guess you could still, it could be live on set, but like, you wouldn't be like the designer of a show. I don't even know how it works in television and film. Like the lighting people. Is there a lighting designer behind film and TV? Speaker 2 (17m 21s): There are no. And because there's so many more people on a film, I, and or television, there's more people encompass the single jobs that we do in theater, the DP it'd be the DP and the gray and then the interest and then editing is also a part of what we do. So, so all of those things sort of come together in that way. It's funny, David Swayze, do you remember Dan Swayze? He, so he's in film now and he's doing super well. Yeah. He's an art director and film and, and we have not kept up. We keep up actually better than I do with a lot of people, but it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, even with the pandemic, it's been a couple of years. Yeah. He, he was talking one time about what he loved about doing television or film, he specifically film. And the thing that he loves about it is that it's, it's so immediate and you can make changes. So like, you can say like, oh, we need to, we, instead of doing it this way, we think this would look better and you can actively do that thing, which in theater set designers can't do that. But the rest of us can, I was like, you're talking about lightening design. I can make the change in the instant. You know, sometimes I have to say, I have to hang a light for tomorrow, but sometimes I can do like, hang on. My moving light will do that for us. Right. This second, you know? So I get to, I get to, it's funny though, we were like super technical or technological. And then all of a sudden it was like projections and sound, which were, you know, a slide projector and a yes. And you know, MiniDisc jumped us and they can craft in the room and we still can't craft in the room in the same way that they can, which I'm actually kind of grateful for. I like that. We get to say like, we're going to think on that. We're gonna let us Speaker 1 (18m 60s): Oh, wait. And think on that. Yeah. You know, that's interesting. Cause I, I, yeah, I liked the idea too of you're you're like a problem solver. Oh Speaker 2 (19m 13s): Yes. Right. Speaker 1 (19m 14s): Yeah. I love problem solvers. I think that they're really great to have in a room because I think it teaches everybody that like there are mysteries to be solved in the theater. And there are people that are trained to solve them that aren't me and they, and that we can work together. But problem solvers, we need the problem-solvers in, in rooms, in the theater. Like it's fantastic. Speaker 2 (19m 46s): But you know, it's interesting. We solve different problems, problems. Like I was years ago, we have this event on the last day of the semester, second semester at Columbia called manifest, which is this massive arts festival. It spills onto the streets. We have puppet show puppet, parades down the street. And we have, it's really fantastic. Photography has like gallery exhibits, super fun. This school is crazy. And I love it. And years ago it poured down rain and they had had this thing that they were going to do. This is pretty so long ago that I think it was 2009, actually it poured down rain. And they'd had this event that they were going to do called manna text. And they were going to, people could submit their phone numbers and they would text and be like, go to this stage. And you'll, if you're the 10th person there you'll get a thing. And texting was still like, we, it, wasn't certainly not the, the way we lived our lives. Right, Speaker 1 (20m 39s): Right. Speaker 2 (20m 41s): Yes. It poured down. And as soon as it pours, like we had an outdoor stage and I always, I, I produced it for the department. I thank God. I don't have to anymore. But I, I had, I always kept the stage free inside so that if anything happened, we could move it in. So we moved everything in and we didn't have lights up in the theater. And I, so I walked downstairs and I started hanging some lights and doing some things and I was working with, oh, this is funny. I was working with Kendra Thulin oh yeah. He was working with me on that because Kendra and I worked together again, somebody, I almost forget I went to school with. And so I started hanging the lights and everything and she's just staring, like she can't do it. And my kids walked in, my students walked in and I was like, okay, here's what I need you to do to finish this up, do this, do this, do this, hang that, get these gels. These from the sides, this from the front, I'll see you guys. They were like, great. And Kendra and I walked out to do something. And she was like, that was amazing. And I was like, it's what we know how to do. And then five hours later Manitex has fallen apart. They can't figure out what to do. And I'm standing there. I've got these two seasoned subscriptions to the department, which I'm pretty sure were free anyway, back then. And I'm like, what am I supposed to do with these? And I turned there, we're doing a musical theater thing. And I turned to a couple of minutes, you'll theater students. And I was like, get these to an audience member. Somehow they went on stage and made this hilarious, adorable competition. That was like a trivia thing, like trivia about musical theater. Right. And they gave them to the winner. And I was like, we all, I, my students would have turned to the human next to them and been like, do you have these, you know, that's why we're all together. That's why Columbia administration is constantly like, you're you have too many majors in your department. It's so unwieldy. And it's like, because it takes a lot of people to create an entire world. Speaker 1 (22m 26s): It really does. That is really true. And everybody solves different problems. Like nobody that does it does. It does take a bunch of people. That's really interesting. And then when you graduated, what did you do? Like, were you like, I mean, really your career kind of took off. I mean, you're co you're pretty fancy lighting cider. So how did you, did you just like, love it and people loved you and you started getting jobs or like how did it work? Speaker 2 (22m 55s): Yeah. There was a couple of stages in it. I, you know, it's funny. I did the big funk and what's hilarious about that to me is that when we did it, I was like, where are we? We are in the front end of someone's apartment. It is bizarre. These people live here in the back of this place and they're letting us do a play in the front and like flash forward, I don't know, 15 years. And I, I am friends with those people. Amazing. I did some moment in conversation. I was like, that was your place that I did that weird shit show with the weird lights in the cans. Like, so I started doing storefront and I S I had started assisting at Steppenwolf while I was at school. So I had, I, at the time that I was in school, I had a foot in both bootcamps. And so it is, I definitely, yeah, I definitely was splitting my time. And so I started doing more assisting it's definite wall. And in the fall, he'll never hear this the fall, right after graduation, I assisted somebody who sort of well known to be difficult business of lighting side. And for whatever reason, we absolutely hit it off. And he is like my brother today. And so I started traveling with him. I started working on projects all over with him and because he was difficult, theater companies would bring me to projects that they wouldn't necessarily bring an assistant on normally, because he's really, he's like the best in the business, but they knew I could handle him. And they knew that I could handle him by saying, I need you to leave the theater right now. And I'll take care of things while you sit her down. And so we, I would go to, I went to New York with him starting in 1998. I assisted actually my second Broadway assisting job was with him. My first one was from Steppenwolf. So I simultaneously was with Steppenwolf and him. And so my assistant career was like really amping up. And I was in these important rooms like Suzan-Lori parks and George Wolfrey top dog underdog with at the time the first production was Don Cheadle and Jeffrey Wright. And then those staff replaced Jeffrey or repost on. And so I was getting to do a lot of those really awesome things. And simultaneously I was doing storefront, right. And, and honing my skills and building my skills and knowing how, like I could watch the people that assisted make these massive shows with so much stuff. And I would think about those ideas. It's exactly what they tell you to do in school. But yeah. And then I would go back to the storefront with 17 lights and some candles, and I could make something that was really interesting because I had a much stronger sense of how equipment worked. You know, Keith always says that his graduate school was assisting per the years that he did. And he particularly assisted this amazing designer named Jim Ingles. And he's like, that was my grad school because I learned how to use our tools and then how to pull back from them. Speaker 1 (25m 35s): And how did you get, I think for people listening, they're going to be, well, how, how did she get to assist at step it, well, how did she get in the room at Steppenwolf? Speaker 2 (25m 44s): It was that guy, Kevin, the one that was my, you know, he taught us, but he, I, he knew I came up here and I reached out and I was like, I really, I want to have, you know, I, I want to work with you. I want to learn from you. And he, it's funny because now he's in Houston. I met him, but he is, he was great. And my second year, because the guy I came in with dropped the program, my second and third year, I was all alone. Like my classes were by myself. And so what John would often do was put me in a class with someone else. So that, like, there was a, for some reason, the third year BFA lighting class in my second year only had one wedding student. So we paired for the class in the class time, we had somebody to sort of like riff on and talk to, and our levels were different. But a lot of the projects that we did, like we spent one full quarter just in the light lab, which we usually, most semester, most years we did just making projects. And like, here's a song like the song by next week, here's a musical theater song. You you're lighting it as if it's musical theater, somebody on there, like something has to represent the chorus, visually something has to represent, how do you, how do you actually change the song as if it's a stage? And we have like little blocks of wood and like little people and things that we would put up and make these vignettes. And so she and I were just sort of at different levels on that, but Kevin was the teacher and it was, I actually had a one-on-one with him. And he said at the beginning of the year, he was like, I just want your, your resume is going to look good when you finish this class. And that was crazily enough. It was the 20th anniversary of Stephan wall. So I was the second assistant on very child. Gosh, that to Gary Sinise director, I worked on every man that Frank Lottie directed, I worked on the Libertine, how much was in. I did, I was an assistant second assistant on all of those shows. And then by the fourth show of that season, I ended up the first assistant who, who stayed with him for a while, but was sort of grooming me to be the next step. And that's how that sort of works sometimes is like we, our assistants move up and become our full peers. And then we train somebody else up in that way. And I, by the fourth show, I was actually getting paid while I was doing it for credit and stuff at school. So I think in those days I wouldn't have gotten in trouble for it today. They would be like, what, what? Speaker 1 (27m 56s): Right. But then you were like, yeah. Speaker 2 (27m 58s): So they didn't know. Right. Speaker 1 (28m 0s): They weren't keeping track of that is so cool. Speaker 2 (28m 3s): So I got to do that. Speaker 1 (28m 4s): Yeah. And then, and then did you, did you, what was the journey like to, did you live in New York? Like, did you live in New York, ever full time? Speaker 2 (28m 13s): Not full time. I spent a lot of time crashing on David Swayze's spare, like his studio floor. I did a lot of that for many years and, and other friends, new Yorkers are particularly skilled in the art of letting you stay with them. And so now, I mean, I joke that I'm the Heather Gilbert school for wayward or Heather Gilbert home for wayward Chicagoans, because I there's so many people who move out of Chicago and come back to do a show and I let them, I let them live in my spare room. My friend, Samantha, who's this brilliant costume designer. I mean, for like two and a half years, we were like, she was like my, my roommate. She came and went, I have somebody coming on the Saturday after Thanksgiving while she does a show, you know? Cause I feel like I'm giving back for all those times that I crashed in New York. So I did a fair amount of assisting and stuff there. I've only, I guess I've only designed about three times there actually. One of them was pretty significant. So yes. Speaker 1 (29m 9s): Talk about that. Let's talk about that. How did that come about? What, what, yeah. That journey of life. Speaker 2 (29m 17s): Yeah. My other job in grad school was I was bartender. I, yeah. I used to bartend at a place called bar San Miguel up on Clark street. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was a non-equity bar. And I started bartending there after, I guess, had our second year. It's funny during that huge heat wave of 95, I went there for the first time with Chris Freeburg and Kate McKernan. Yes. Half a year later I was working there and, and Cromer used to come in there cause it was a theater bar and I met him there. And so our relationship started 26 years ago. Holy shit. Speaker 1 (29m 48s): As tender in a patron. Speaker 2 (29m 50s): Yeah. That's how we met. That's amazing. Yeah. He loves that. I think he loves it. That's part of our origin story because it's funny when we, when he tells it and writes it like in a letter of recommendation or whatever, and, and we didn't work together until 2003, but we've known each other. At one point we quit smoking at the same time. And at one point that was like the most significant thing. And then all of these things that we've done have happened since, but now I'm also still thinking that maybe the most significant thing that we ever did together was quit smoking. That's fantastic. Speaker 1 (30m 18s): It's very significant. And it also, you did it together and it's a real bonding experience when you quit. Something like that. Speaker 2 (30m 26s): Yeah. It was tough. It's been, it's been, it's been 19 years this year. Congratulations. So we started then, and that was the moment also that like I did a show with him finally, and we did this miracle on 34th street that we all were super in need of money at Christmas time. And he wrote this adaptation and it started Tracy Letts, which we think is like the funniest thing in the world now. And so we did that show and then when I started, and then I started teaching shortly thereafter and I started, I did, and I went to LSU for two years in Baton Rouge. And when I came back because I loved teaching students, they're the best thing in the world. Higher education can make you want to pull your hair out. And state schools are often really like that if you're in the arts. So it was a struggle, but I came back here to Columbia, which I had only vaguely known of when we were in school. And that's, I didn't know that everybody who got cut came here until I was teaching here. And then it was funny because when I would, I don't remember when the cuts system stopped, but whatever point it did was after I started here, because you would be doing like the summer sort of advising with incoming students, you do your, your couple of sessions in the summer and kids would come in and their credits would be this really weird number. And I was like, I don't understand why that's not three credits, but it was like two points, 1.3 threes and 2.3 twos. And it was sort of like thirds, but not even HOAs. And I, and I found out that was, that was the sign of somebody who was cut from the theater school because it was the theater school classes that were those year long things, trying to get them into semesters. Right, right. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that's what happened to everybody who quit. And so, so, but David talkier and so we, we start teaching a collaboration class together, all really. I didn't know, that's cool for directors and designers. And so then we were going to do a show here at school together, but he, and we started the process and we were like, live, we got to live what we teach them. We got to, we got it. We got to collaborate like that. And we had to pull out of the show because he took adding machine to New York instead. And then he came home from adding machine. And that's when he had been talking about our town that he was going to do with the hypocrites, which was, I worked a lot with the artistic director of the hypocrites I had. I had a long relationship. I, I mean, he's still my friend, he's just second grader, John grainy, Sean and I, Sean was simultaneously, the two of them were sort of like my biggest income and my income through them. And so I, so, but I wasn't a part of the hypocrites. I was eventually, I was not at that point. Right. And he, he kept talking to the show, but he had to ask the resonance designer, but the resident designer who's my sweet friend now said no. And they brought me on to our town and you know, it's sort of like, the rest is history. Like we, David and I have a long history at that point and we have a, we had a friendship, you know, but we now, you know, we had like the let's let's, you know, talk on the phone and watch Dexter in the middle of the night friendship a little bit before that. But we now have done, I think I, I counted when we opened bug last week and I think we've talked 16 shows together and, and some of them have been really life-changing for both of us. So yeah, Speaker 1 (33m 37s): That is fantastic. And I feel like if you find a collaborator that just I'm recently have, have started working with someone that I just, I work with Gina, and then I work with other people, but like when you find someone like that, where you, you just, it just works out. Like it just works. There's something about it. The only thing you can think of is like, you know, it is some sort of, it almost feels like some kind of cosmic thing that comes together that you are able to do. Great. You can facilitate each other's great work without ending the relationship and having crazy, you know, fights and things that don't lead to total destruction. That's magic. Speaker 2 (34m 24s): Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting cause directors go, I think they probably do this to actors too. If they have a deep relationship more than anything, they go stuff's right there. Like they just stopped calling and you're like, come on. Right. And Cobra, at one point it was in New York and working with new people and our town had come to a close. Right. Which, cause that sort of kept us together for a long time. We did that show that was over over seven year period of time, all the venues. And so we, we had, you know, we'd, we'd, we'd had a connection and we had done other couple of other new shoot new shows within that time. Yeah, sure. It wasn't just our town. Right. And then we'd done our streetcar that was really successful. And the Sam Rockwell was in really isn't that crazy. I did a person who was Sam Rockwell, who was so lovely. I came up and was like, oh my God, the lighting is so beautiful. I was like, oh, so I will be heard in it. So how do you know? But, Speaker 1 (35m 17s): But he, but even to say it, you know, like what a sweetheart? Yeah. I was at a wedding with him cause he was in a movie with my boss and he was lovely, a lovely and like a pro like a real, Speaker 2 (35m 31s): So I get so excited for him now all the time. So, but we had healed David actually sort of like wasn't calling. And I was like, oh, are we not going to work together anymore? And it's funny because I think in the history of our lives, it will, it's actually a blip, but it felt like a long time. And I was like, okay, well I guess that's okay. Like relationships do shift and, and partnerships do add, nobody wants to somebody forever. Absolutely. But I was like, I actually, we are, I am, you know, I was not a Columbia kid. I'm like, I have a pocket in a thousand ways. But yeah, I did work. I do teach at Columbia and I am a Sheldon Patinkin person. I'm one of his people and Sheldon taught you, you see each other's shows. That is what we do for each other. Right. I was like, I'm going to still see your shows. Right. We have way too much of a history for our friendship to die because we're not, we're not doing right. Right. So I kept, I stayed around. Yeah. I was like, I'm not going to, I'm going to come to me. I'm going to see your things. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to go see the band's visit or I'm going to go also, I get to see the bands visit then come on. Right. Or I'm going to see your comeback, little Sheba with Derek  in Boston because I love that. You know? And so when the time rolled around, I found out he was doing a production of next to normal at writers theater. And I loved that show and I had done a production of it that I kept texting him, being like, oh my God, I wish I were doing your production of this. Not that I didn't think that one was great, but it was much more of the sort of flash and trash version. Right. And I wanted to see David's version where there's like a dining room table and people around it. Right. You know? And I just, I was, so I texted him as soon as I heard from our friend Lilianne was like, I will do the show. And he woke up the next morning and he was like, he texted me back. I was like, it was kind of a non David text. I was like, this is very specific and kind, and I he's listing these things, but he was like, these are the, I woke up this morning and I saw your text. And I called Michael Halberstam, who was still the artistic director at the time. And so we have to hire Heather for the show and he said, okay, but we already hired Keith. And I was like, yeah, I fucking knew it. I knew I was going to be too late. I'm reading this text. And David's like, and I screwed up. And these are the reasons why, and he was like, writer's theaters are theater. It's our place. Which just so you know, he'd just done as many shows with Keith as he has with me. But he went through and he was like gave me their reasons that were really lovely. And then he said, Williamstown is going to reach out about a show, Adam rap's new play. And I was like, Williamstown really paid nothing. Why is that my constellation prize? I was totally annoyed. And then Williamston production was a struggle. Like we did this by the way, the play is the sound inside because we have not said the name of it if anybody's listening. And we, so we were, it was a struggle, you know, you have to do it very quickly. It's a big play for, for the, the lead actress in it and the actress in it. And, and it was a struggle for her. She, she definitely was acting out a little bit. Yeah, sure. And, and so, and you don't have much time and you're doing it with people who are, you know, these interns that I it's sort of famously a conversation in the industry right now about specifically how William sound carries those interns. So you're feeling guilty and also they don't know what they're doing as well. So there's a lot of pressure on that. Right. And I loved it. I loved that place so much. I read that play and I was like, oh my God, this is beautiful. It's this beautiful play about what we do when we were in need in our loneliness. And it's just, it's ju it just hit me. I don't know how Adam Rapp, who's this like hyper alpha masculine male actually has that insight into, I think, because it's insight into humanity and thus, he can change it into he's like, well, women feel the same thing men do. We're right. We're not different creatures. Right. So, yeah. Wow. And then, and then the show moved to New York a year later to Broadway to studio 54, which my God, I got to crawl around in studio 54. It took me crawl over that building. I was like, she'll be everything. Where did they keep the drugs? I'm so cute. Right. Right. Yeah. And we, I went up into the there's a dome and I got to go up into the dome and look down into the space and see where they store all the lights. And I got the full tour one day. It's great. The crew is the best crew in the entire world. And we did this beautiful play and people were, you know, it's funny. I, I actually was just, I submitted an application last night at 11:58 PM for full professorship. Like that's the highest level of, of teaching here. Yeah. And when you get tenure, you have to apply for that. But then once you've got it, you actually don't have to apply for anything, a promotion past that. Yeah. So I finally had committed to doing it. And so it's funny, I've been thinking so much about my philosophy of lighting and the way I approach it. But one of the things is that there's that old saw the best line design is lighting. The can't be seen, which is just a load of crap anywhere like Eddie in any scenario, like just say like you and I can't see the light where we are right now. Right. We see it. We know it's there. What they really mean is if I change, if I break the rules of the reality that I set up for you and notice that that's bad lighting design. Right, right. It's like, it's, I was compared to like, weirdly as a lighting professor, I had Meisner in this paper that I was writing yesterday. This document is writing. Cause it's like, it's that idea of living truthfully in imaginary circumstances. It's the same thing for us. We're creating those circumstances and we're trying to make it so that the actors can live in truth and everything has it. And if the rules are light comes out of the floor. Right. And it changes when I take a step, as long as I, as long as we create those rules for the audience. Right. And, and train them, they know what it is and then they follow it. Yeah. Speaker 1 (41m 6s): We'll go with you. It's consistency. It's authenticity. It's telling the truth in the moment and yeah. Staying true to what the vision is, whatever that vision is. But yeah, it also reminds me of like the good lighting is shouldn't be noticed or whatever is like, women should be seen and not heard. It's totally like fuck off. Speaker 2 (41m 28s): So I was talking about something about myself too, and I almost was talking about leadership and I almost said, you know, because I was called bossy as a child, and now we acknowledge that. That just meant I was a leader. Speaker 1 (41m 37s): Yeah. Right. It just meant that. And you know, it's interesting because my recollection of you in college was that you knew what the hell you were doing now. Granted, I mean, everyone has different, you know, I'm sure you didn't always know what you're doing. Cause you're a human being. But like my recollection of you is that you were like, I think maybe because also you were a grad student, right. So, but you definitely had vision. You were someone that I was like, oh, they know what they're doing and, and why they're doing it. So there was this thing about you that I really felt from the little, I knew that like you had motivation or like a, a direction and also a curiosity, but, and a, I just, I just think you were like very early on like a master of your craft, which meant that also masters in my view, like really study and take the shit seriously and have a lot of pride in their work. That was it. Like not a lot of people had a pro. I mean, I can speak for myself. Like it wasn't like, I, I felt like you could stand behind your work. I've always felt that like, when I read stuff about, about you or like when I follow your career, it's like you stand by your work. That's fucking phenomenal, you know? Speaker 2 (42m 55s): Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel like a lot of that was also the training that we were getting in the, in the design program because we had, we had such good professors, particularly John, we, we, we had Franco Lovecchio was there for two years. Right. Who was the most wonderful, crazy human in the entire world. He would like, literally, like you'd be drawing in the studio and you'd be like drawing on something. And we all learned that you had to keep tracing paper over a culture, which is something called trace really. But we would, we would have trace taped to our drawing boards so that the minute he sat down, you could throw a trace over it. Or he would just start drawing all over you drawing. And, but he would like nudge you off your chair while he was like, fixing your time for you. And you'd tell him, be standing there watching him doing your work. And you were like, maybe, maybe not, maybe, maybe I'm in school. Maybe I want to learn how to do that. He was so funny though. So great. But then John Colbert has, is like really like taught us like the, that you have to be able to justify the work that you have to understand the rules of the piece that you and the rigor that goes behind that. And Nancy Beulah, who's the same. Who was just this amazing. She's the, she used to let, she used to let you do your project again, to get your grade up a little bit. And I would get like a B plus on something for her and I would do it again. And it wasn't even that I really needed. Like, I wasn't great. I wanted her to think I was working. Like I needed her to have that belief in Speaker 1 (44m 15s): G she, there was something. So she costumed me and said she just, she was so affirming. And also like you, there was something about she, she made me believe that she knew that I was going to be okay and that I was going to be a professional and that I could do it. Like there was, it was amazing. It was so much, there was like a strong confidence that she instilled in me as a costume person, which I, I just felt, again, she stood behind her work too. Like she was a bad-ass like, there was no like, ah, apologizing, there was no apologizing. And I feel like we just spent so much of our lives or at least I have apologizing that when I see someone like a career like yours, I'm like, oh, maybe this comes from not apologized. Like maybe not apologizing for, for us as women as in our work, you know, like this is badass work I'm doing and I'm going to continue to do it. I dunno. It's just a fierceness. Speaker 2 (45m 19s): Well, for me too, I feel like the thing that I'm proudest of in my, in my age and in my success is that I no longer feel like the pressure of having to be complete on the first day of tech. Like, I'm like, I'm going to put an incomplete, that thing up there, and I'm going to start to see how light is moving on these people and what that does. And I know it might not look good, but I'm not going to worry about that. It's going to be okay. You know, I'm going to be able to, I know I will make it look great. I know I can. I know that what I put up there for the first draft is going to be the right first draft, because I know what I'm doing and I know that it doesn't have to be complete. Right. And I'm fine with that. And like, David is really great for that because he has no expectations of that either. Speaker 1 (46m 3s): Yeah. That's fantastic. I mean, that's like really the difference between being product oriented and process oriented, right? Yeah. As an artist. And like, for me as a writer, like writing for TV, my first draft, if it's not, it's, it's terrible. And it's exactly where it's supposed to be. But if I have expectations or get in my own way and feel self-conscious about it, the whole thing is it doesn't work. So it's like, this is a shitty first draft. And by shitty, I mean, wonderful. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 (46m 32s): So wonderful first draft, right? It's never supposed to be the final thing. Totally. We were also taught at school that because we don't stick around for the product, right. We're not part of the product. We, I mean, we are, we're making a product, right. Because we're not ever, once the product goes, our AR is there, we're gone from it that we need to be really process-oriented. And that our process is what's going to get us hired aspect of working with us. Speaker 1 (46m 59s): I love that. And I feel like if we could, if we, I wish I would have learned that more and I'm not, I don't blame anyone for it. I just think it's the way the life is. But like, I'm, that's what I think I've spent my adult career as an artist becoming more process oriented and less product oriented and less and less judgy, right. About my and other people's process of, of like, it doesn't look the same. And so I think when you find a collaborator, which it sounds like David, what is for you that is also, and in the same sort of thought process in terms of how art is created, that's what works, because you're both sound like you're like no expectations for the first thing to be the thing. Like it changes it pivots, it moves, it's moving, it's breathing and moving. And I think that that's probably why your work together is so powerful and profound is that you both have this view life view right. Of art that works together really well. Right. So, and that sounds fine when I find those people. Those are the people I want to stay with and work with. Yeah. Speaker 2 (48m 7s): Yeah. And I think too, like one of the things getting back to sound inside and David, is that like, I, the thing that people often comment on is my use of darkness on stage that I actually commit fully to it, that I don't have a problem having actress speak from the dark. And I did the first time I ever had something that was really dark. I was like, oh God, like, you know, you're taught that, that can't be funny. Right. People actually laugh at things that here in the dark, it turns out. And so, but so being able to like be tiny and focused and just have a little bit of light, you know, and sound inside became that piece, which was like, we created the premise of the play is that this professor is telling the, talking to the audience and we don't really know what that's about. Like, I don't know. And I don't know the answer to that because I almost felt like knowing, like we don't want the audience to fully know. And I felt like if I know too much, then I, it may manifest. And so I never, even though Adam rap became, I tell him that he's the brother. I didn't get no offense to the brother. I did get, but I love Adam and I can ask him anything and talk to him about anything. But I have never asked him the truth of the play, which is, is it happening? Is it my meal? There's a character that we question is the character even real? Is she writing a book as she talks to the audience, this character, a Bella college professor, or is she, or there's a reference to a book at the end of the play that you like? Did she steal that book? And a lot of that was taken, there were a lot more concrete parts of the story when we did it Williamstown and they were taken out for the Broadway production to let the audience sort of float in their own uncertainty more. And so the idea is that Bella, this character who, who is this professor is actually the only fully fleshed out part of the play at the beginning. And that we slowly revealed the world as she creates it as she sort of illustrating it. And so that actually gave me the ability to have this production that was like using little amounts of light, a lot of darkness. Like I like, but also was in a way flashy, because we'd have like a big window on the side, on the wall of the sets. And then all of a sudden it would shift like instantly into a different time of day. And the shape of the window would change in the color of the window would change, but it was all very graphic. And then eventually within these like sequence of scenes in this office with this window, eventually the final one was this massive projection of a very real window. So, and so I got to work and I worked really closely with the production designer, who was the handsomest person in design. His name is Aaron Ryan. If you ever meet him, you're going to be like, I didn't know that designers looked like that. I thought only actors did. Wow. And he's the best dude in the land. I love him so much. Speaker 1 (50m 33s): So, so I guess yeah. Being mindful of your time, I just want to ask you if you, because we do have a lot of younger folks that listen to the show and that are interested in careers as designers, not just after, you know, now there's like such a, we're trying also to shine a light on designers. Cause it's awesome. Right. We don't, I mean, acting is not the only name of the game here. So what would you say if someone came to you and said, Hey, I'm interested in the theater. What does, what w what kind of person do I, it's kind of a hard question, but what kind of person do I need to be, to be a designer? I know if I'm a designer, Heather, Speaker 2 (51m 26s): I actually am really conscious of like the personality quirks of designers, because I watch it so much in my students. Right. And it's interesting because I am, I can't make a, I can not build a model. I cannot build a model. I, it was hated in school and it, but it's this really sort of detailed private work. And I'm a much, I'm super extroverted, which that doesn't mean all lighting designer extroverted, but like, I have to be able to work out here. Like I don't work here. I have to be able to work openly. I also have to work in public. Everybody is there when actors and designers have that rare thing in which actors and lighting designers, I should say, we, all of our work is done in front of other people. You cannot, like, you might have a smaller room and only a couple people at first, but like, it's still the same and we don't get to make it privately. And then somebody builds it and we go, oh, paint it that way. Or even like, listen to in our headphones. No, you have to be okay with that. You have to be really good with like a super high level of pressure. And you have to let it roll off of you. I worked, I love Sean Graney. This will not surprise anybody who knew Shawn grainy or losing his Shaun could be very difficult in a tech. I'm not the easiest dude, always in the world, but I love him to death. And there was an actor that we used to work with who just would Marvel. We worked with this person so many times and was a big part of the company. And with Marvel, it, me, because Sean would get tense and it'd be like really stressful and like pushing, pushing to get it done faster. And I would just let it all roll off. And it's because I have to be able to do that and know that this is my time. Right. Reclaiming my time. I was like, oh yeah, I do that all the time because I know that this is when I can do the thing. I also have to know when I can say, Hey, you know what? I can do this later. I can do this without people, or it's taking too long and it's slowing us down and it's, it's killing our process. It's not letting us all move forward as a group. And I'll deal with this thing later. Right. But I also know that I have to do it now. And that's the way this process works until somebody changes it, I'm going to do it in the room. And so I will take my time. I have to be able to work as quickly as I can in that. And I have to know that I have to deal with the pressures from other people. Speaker 1 (53m 27s): So it's got a little bit of, it's interesting. It's a it's human relationships that makes with time management mixed with reclaiming your time mixed with knowing when to, yeah. When you can let go and say, okay, I'm going to do, but like, I, I don't think people, at least I'll speak for myself. Younger people think that you need, well, the ones I encounter my students too, like, you need people skills as a designer. Oh, you need people skills. Like, just because you're not an actor doesn't mean you don't, you know, you got to work with people. And I think your, from your interview, it's really clear that like, there's all different kinds of people you're going to work with, and you're not going to get along with all of them, but you can also figure out a way, right. To still have the process, be one of where you get your work done, get rehired. If that's what you want and still be a kind human and work, you know, in the industry. And I think that's really interesting that you, the rolling off the back. Yeah. Because people in tech and in tech and intense situations get bonkers bomb, bonkers, bonkers Speaker 2 (54m 30s): Years ago, I was assisting on a production of the Scottish play in New York that George Wolf was directing that Angela Bassett and Alec Baldwin were starring in and the pressure and the pressure on it was super high. And then everybody who was a secondary person was like, we have Schreiber and Michael Hall and Zach brown. Speaker 1 (54m 48s): I mean, it was our secondary Speaker 2 (54m 50s): People. Cause they were babies that like Zach rabbit just finished school. Like let's start on it. And we, and the pressure was super high. And, and we were on the third floor of the building and the electric shop was in the basement. And my designer was like yelling at me and I would pass it on. I would pass that energy on. And the assistant lighting supervisor took me out for pizza and was like, you can't do that. And he was like, you have to be the wall. And if you can't be the wall, this might not be your job. He's like, you can still be a designer, but assisting might not be the way you got there. And this guy must've been, I mean, he was maybe my age. He was probably younger than me. His name was Todd greatest thing that ever happened to me. Yep. It changed me forever. I was like, you're right. That is my job. And actually, I'm very good at that. I am a cheerleader and I'm a person who cares about people and I have no problem. I mean, there will be times that I'm not trying to say, I'm never put pressure on the people around me. I get impatient too. I'm not a patient person, but, but I can, I can try to protect the people around me. And I, and I love my team that people who make the lighting thing happen, you know, I kept, I, we won the, I did this production bug with David right before the pandemic. And then we just did it again unless we could set them off. And we won the Jeff award for it. As I like to say, we won the Jeff award. Like my team won that award. I didn't do it by myself, but I actually took it into the first day of tech and we put it on the tech table for the second round. And I was like, everybody had my crew put a light on it and they would run the light up. And it was like, everybody may give me notes through the Jeff. The Jeff looks up notes for me. That's hilarious. I will speak to none of you. I will speak to Carrie Coon, Carrie Coon also want to Jeff that she may speak directly to me because what else do you do with an award? There's so weird there, Speaker 1 (56m 30s): Right there, weirdness. And they're weird and they're nice and they're in your effort. And it's the only way we have really, as human acknowledged this stuff, but in a, in a sort of ceremony kind of a way, but like, all right, well, I just thank you for talking Speaker 2 (56m 46s): Absolutely Speaker 1 (56m 47s): Pleasing. And I, I, you know, I just, I'm always left when I talk to someone like you I'm like left with this wish for young women to know that there are so many jobs and careers in the theater that you don't just have to be an actor or an actress or whatever you want to call yourself. There are so many things. And, and by, and for me also, it's like, oh my gosh, please find someone that's doing the thing you might want to do and ask them questions and see if you can get information, you know, like an informational interview, which is essentially what we do on this podcast is do an informational interview with people we went to school with and other people, but like get the information. So thank you for putting the information about your career and your journey out there for us. And we'll, we'll keep in touch and you'll get a copy to review before we air it. And, but just, thank you. Thank you so much. Speaker 2 (57m 45s): Totally. I'll send you guys some pictures I have to please. And, you know, they're printed. I actually had to go into a box and found Speaker 1 (57m 51s): Them. It's a whole thing. Speaker 2 (57m 53s): Yeah. Much like everybody else. I went through all of those during the pandemic. So I was trying to figure if I had one with me and Keith, cause that would be awesome. Speaker 1 (57m 60s): That would be fine. Speaker 2 (58m 3s): It's funny. I love telling people in the, in the lighting community that like I drove her, we've been friends for so long. I drove him home from college for Christmas, his first year of college, you know, and then, and now he's like, like he did his first runway show at studio 54. And then I did my first Broadway show in studio 54. And like, yeah, I really love getting to share all of that with him. And he's a true and great artist. And I just, S

Occupy Your Mind!
OYM Ep. 63: Don't Call Yourself a 'Health Freedom' Activist if You Aren't Helping Those Who've Lost Their Jobs Due to the Arm-Stab Mandates!

Occupy Your Mind!

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2021 53:02


Many people who already know the arm-stabbing, euthanizing, killer shots will shorten their lives will take those death stabs anyway! Huh? What I'm trying to say is that many people will take the "vaccines" out of fear of losing their jobs. (They aren't really "vaccines," as they don't prevent the spread or the contraction of the disease, nor are they effective at doing anything at all, other than injuring and sometimes killing those who take them--and of course, bringing in money for large, transnational corporations.) Most of those hospitalized right now with "Covid" have already been arm-stabbed, injected with toxins. That's why they're sick... "Covid" is also in quotes as many sources say the virus has not been isolated. People who have died from other causes are being labeled as having been "Covid" positive when they actually died of other causes! We also know that "Covid" has a 99% survival rate for most people and that medicines and natural treatments work to counteract the illness (or whatever the heck it is). So "vaccines" don't make sense for the treatment of this disease. So... Why are they being offered as the only treatment available? Why are so many people gullible enough to fall for this? Why is the PCR machine being used to diagnose this illness when it has been shown to be inaccurate and ineffective for diagnosing illness? The inventor Kary Mullis himself said the PCR should not be used for diagnosing illness! Positive cases only mean that people have tested positive but they may have no symptoms. There is no evidence that they are contagious or "super spreaders" when they have no symptoms, yet somehow the masses have been convinced to think that "cases" equate "illnesses" or "deaths." Nope. A positive case simply means the VERY INACCURATE PCR machine discovered that once in your life you had a cold. Oh dear! I had a cold? Yikes? Oh, and the flu? The flu has mysteriously disappeared... It was replaced with--you guessed it--Covid-19! Gosh, the flu has gotten scary! Did you know that since the dawn of humankind, people have gotten sick from the flu? Did you further know that some people die from the flu? Yep, that's always been true... Oddly enough, though, we never imposed lock-downs or mask mandates on flu sufferers. Hmm... Why is that? Most of us have been aware of all of this for over a year. Yet... here we are. In spite of all the evidence being presented that "Covid" is a scam and that the injections are bio-weapons, most people continue to believe Fauci & fiends... But I am speaking of the "vaccine" mandates. Many employers now require people to sign up for what is essentially a euthanization program in order to keep their jobs. Yes, a lot of us say we will stand our ground, that we won't give in, but most people... Well, people need to earn a living. We live in a society which judges the poor and the homeless harshly. Most people don't want the indignity of poverty. Most people know that if they lose everything, no one will be there to help. Why? Because Americans were brainwashed long ago into believing that the poor are inferior, have made the wrong choices, aren't managing their money properly, are addicts or mentally ill, etc. Because of the stigma attached to poverty (and a brilliant maneuver by the capitalism-gone-wild peeps, I must say), most Americans avoid poverty at all costs. They will do exactly what their bosses--their superiors!--tell them to do... If you truly care about medical freedom, about stopping this 1984-like, frightening totalitarian system the PTB is setting up, then you MUST help those who are losing or are about to lose their jobs! There are lots of possible ways to help, but they all involve one thing: people coming together, supporting each other, cooperating and working together, forming communities. That's the only way that I see us surviving this thing. #covid1984 #healthfreedom --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/occupyyourmind/support

Troup UMC
Week 2 of Advent: “The Day”- Philippians 1:3-11.

Troup UMC

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 5, 2021 18:24


Gosh! We made it through service without power! Glory to God for offerings  that help pay for stuff like an AC!! Remember the lesson of the refiners fire! Jesus coming again to judge  means, like removing dross from melted metal,  Christ will remove things in your life, that simply don't need to be there anymore! After he does so,  give it time.  Like the metal, not every Christian recovers the same way.  Now, more than ever, may “ your love abound become even more and more rich with knowledge and all kinds of insight.”‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭

Bitch Slap  ...The Accelerated Path to Peace!

So I've had the epiphany that telling certain types of stories will attract a certain audience.  In this case I'm thinking strictly men or women.  So I give it a go and dig into my repertoire of man-centric stories laced with adventure, risk, accidents, and stitches!  To test the theory and see if they attract a more male audience.  The good news, being a clumsy A type adrenaline junky…  I have stacks of them.  I offer up just a few recent ones. Administrative: (See episode transcript below)Check out the Tools For A Good Life Summit here: Virtually and FOR FREE https://bit.ly/ToolsForAGoodLifeSummitStart podcasting!  These are the best mobile mic's for IOS and Android phones.  You can literally take them anywhere on the fly.Get the Shure MV88 mobile mic for IOS,  https://amzn.to/3z2NrIJGet the Shure MV88+ for  mobile mic for Android  https://amzn.to/3ly8SNjGet A Course In Miracles Here! https://amzn.to/3hoE7sAAccess my “Insiders Guide to Finding Peace” here: https://belove.media/peaceSee more resources at https://belove.media/resourcesEmail me: contact@belove.mediaFor social Media:      https://www.instagram.com/mrmischaz/https://www.facebook.com/MischaZvegintzovSubscribe and share to help spread the love for a better world!As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.Transcript: Mischa Zvegintzov  00:00 All right. All right. All right. All right. If you listened to the last episode, you heard my epiphany about telling different style parables to reach different segments of your audience. So I've got an audience of entrepreneurs I'm trying to hit of both men and women. And so far I've been mostly adept at attracting the female audience, I believe, to the type of stories I've been telling. And so on this episode, I'm going to tell my first calculated story, strategic strategically tailored for the man segment of the audience, enjoy.Mischa Zvegintzov  00:49 (Intro)Imagine a conscious contact with God so strong, that no matter what you are doing, or not doing, that, no matter what your kids are up to, or not up to, and that whether you've got the person of your dreams or they're just not cooperating, that you are happy content, and at peace, a space where everyone else's thoughts, attitudes and actions are beautiful, and exactly as they are supposed to be. Well, this is the space where I like to play. My name is Misha Z. And this is today's pitch slap. Join me as I shed light on the thoughts, actions and attitudes that are causing you pain and we train our minds to go to the capital S inner self the joy that is waiting for us that God within. (End Intro)Mischa Zvegintzov  01:41 Alright, so here we go. A man tailor and story to target but the the male segment of my audience.  How amazing is this? Thank you Russell Brunson and the universe for this insight. But I had this realization as I was walking today and pulled out my Shure MV88 mic because when inspiration strikes, I like to have the best toys to record. Hint, hint. Get yourself an Shure VM88 mic. So hopefully, loud skateboarders. Okay, I made it past the relatively loud segment of skateboarders.  Where was I? A man tale to meet the man segment of the audience. So I had this total awesome realization. I was like, I this is one thing about me. I love adventure. I love trying new things. I'm a process guy. So I love learning the process. And, and if I learn the process, and I'm still interested after that's like a win win, because oftentimes, once I have the process mastered, I get bored, and walk away or not walk away, just go find a new process to master. And so I'm a bit of a, I have been historically a bit of an adrenaline junkie too, and just physically capable enough to really get myself in trouble and acquire scars and stitches. And I realized that as a hit hit 53...Mischa Zvegintzov  03:37 Whoa kids flying by on their bikes, their E bikes that don't care about walking, dads, nor stop signs. Oh my gosh, it's busy intersection. I apologize.Mischa Zvegintzov  03:53 Anyhow. Like, I don't I used to like... the the the the emergency room on Santa Fe Street and Encinitas. Like they know me by name, right. I've been in there more than a few times to get stitches on my arm on my head. Multiple times stitches removed from my cheek one time because I got stitches in frickin in and in Fiji multiple times. They're like, Oh, Misha, what's happening? And this could be surfing, mountain biking.  Skiing.  I was skiing a few years ago and by the grace of God, I didn't hurt myself. But oftentimes when I ski, especially if there's powder, I have this false sense of security of fluffy really hard to get hurt. And and so I'm skiing This is an Alta Utah, which is skier only and I wish I could remember that face that I was going down because it's a really good one full of shoots... and and I find this the end of day, untracked shoot, it's dumping Alta is amazing too. And so it's just dumping. And I'm like, trying to pick out the line. Keep in mind, I'm 50 years old, right? And I'm not sure if at 50 It's the wisest to be trying to figure out how to learn new shoot line techniques, especially when you're by yourself. That's the other thing I was by myself. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, fly. out, turn here, turn here, hop this rock here. You know, air, air, little air off a cliff. Bam, easy peasy, right? And I visualize it, because that's a great thing to do. Anybody who's in sports knows that visualize your turns, and then it's much easier to execute.Mischa Zvegintzov  06:08 So visualize the line, give it a go. And then basically come too... after egg beater. Anybody who's egg beater in skiing knows what that is. And one of my skis. And thank God, I had the powder, the powder, the powder, cord, you know, so when your ski flies off, and that's a 10 foot florecent and trailer. So you can find the ski because it floats above the powder. And so I'm looking everywhere for my ski and it's like, way down the mountain. And I'm like, Did I break my back? Did I dislocate a knee? Like I had a serious moment of concern of like, "holy crap, I'm lucky I did not. I did not do serious damage." Another time. Mammoth love skiing mammoth. In California so with all this skiing again, last 5 - 10 years, mammoth skiing by myself, again, do a hip check. Beginning of the year, bunch of snow.  Do like a little launch hip check.  Keep in mind, this is 50 year old man launch hip check. So this is nothing extreme. And like I just miss a big, barely covered log with my hip when I did the hip check. And I had the stark realization of like, "god dammit, there I... there I go again, you know."  Just a little bit of a risk taker and pushing the envelope. After promising myself I won't push the envelope yet again,Mischa Zvegintzov  07:51 and... hold on traffic...Mischa Zvegintzov  08:02 So I survived that. So fast forward. The last couple of years, I have not felt the urge to ski. So last year, and coming up on this year, so year and a half a year, really last last fall. And this fall. So the last year and coming into this fall, I'm like yeah, you know, kinda over it. I'm kind of have a hard time not pushing the envelope. I kind of have a hard time just gracefully, shushing and enjoying the moment.  Got to push the envelope. Gosh, it sure is interesting that the overpowering urge to ski and have that adventure has been quelled. And I was like, Oh my gosh, it's because the business side of me is just flourishing right now. And sort of that risky adventure learning process is just, it's in full effect. I'm experiencing it, experiencing it just in a creative aspect of, of building, you know, an online business. And it's awesome, right. So I'm getting to learn new processes all over the place. And I also see that there's processes to master but there's plenty of processes waiting in the wings. So that's awesome.Mischa Zvegintzov  09:46 And then, you know, a little bit of risk reward. Like there's so there's some of that intellectual adrenaline happening, you know, financial risk reward, stuff like that. And then it's also serving my need to serve. Like being of service is such a big, big part of my life.  My credo.  My daily you know, spiritual routine is based on "How can I be of service? What can I bring to the table?" And so currently, all those things are being satisfied right now. It's like no wonder I've, I've got no need to prove myself on the ski slope.  To prove myself in the hot yoga room. Right? to push the envelope physically to be the most flexible, stiff 50 year old man.  You know, sold the mountain bikes...  You know what else even I have an E bike, which I freaking love. Because it's so fast. And you can push the envelope, weave in and out of traffic, and kind of be cool. So letting you into the, to the deeper recesses of what drives me sometimes. Thank you for listening. The need to haul ass on my E bike has been quelled to.  I'm like "What's the common denominator denominator here?" Well, one is age. definite maturity.  emotional maturity. Definite like no more need to have stitches or the risk reward of having stitches is no longer worth the adrenaline shot of whatever I'm doing? What else was that gonna say? I don't know. I think you get the picture. But there you go. There's my manly leaning story. And I hope all you men enjoy that. And some of you ladies too. And I don't know. I'm done. Practicing trying out my theory, expanding my story repertoire to reach different segments of my audience. peace out.Mischa Zvegintzov  12:26 (Outro)  Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with me today. As someone who has committed to growth and service to this world, I so appreciate your willingness to come with me go within and serve our world through change. If you found value in this podcast and you know someone who can use this message, share this episode with him. Share it so our mission can be achieved one episode at a time and of course subscribe so you can hear more. And lastly for more resources on what has helped me on my journey and can help you on yours. Go to www.belove.media/resources. That's www.BELOVE.media/slash resources. Thank you again for listening.

SuperFeast Podcast
#144 Sexual Activation and Feminine Embodiment with Eva Williams

SuperFeast Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2021 76:53


Eva Williams is the founder of Golden Lotus; A divine online portal of meditations, movement practices, and sexual/spiritual energy education designed to cultivate spiritual awakening, sexual activation, and embodied sovereignty. This episode explores rebirth and the unfolding of the sacred feminine through preparation and activation rituals, with a deep dive into birth and pregnancy. Tahnee and Eva journey into the numinous layers of Eva's healing work, her Golden Lotus portal, her focus on cultivating and purifying the body through ancient techniques, sexual embodiment, self-pleasure practices, and the many dimensions of birth work. A healer and teacher with over a decade of experience in bodywork, energy work, and feminine sexual cultivation techniques, Eva carries a depth of knowledge that women need now more than ever. Currently, the way most women in society birth is within the structure of an over-medicalised patriarchal system. Sacred feminine lineages of natural birthing wisdom have been at large, replaced with time constraints, interventions, inductions, and regulations; The antithesis of a naturally unfolding feminine space. How did we end up here? With so much of her work focused on this space and where sexual embodiment falls into birth, Eva discusses the importance of birth preparation; From detoxing, orgasms, and opening the pelvis to the deep work of trusting the body and baby to do what they instinctively know how to do. This conversation is a deep weaving of energetic, sexual, and birth culture healing; For all women, past, present, and future.   "Many people come into tantra with a concept of a partner base in mind. But the way I was trained, particularly with my teachers in this more Sufi tradition, I never went into any of this work looking for my sexuality. I never thought I would only work with women; I never thought I would be working with birth. That was not my aim; My aim was to heal people. I worked on everyone. Ultimately, I wanted to find God. I wanted a very deep spiritual experience or a series of those. And over time, that guided me in that direction.  But there was a level of care and sobriety cultivated within me before I was put on that path. And this level of deep devotion and sobriety to my self-development was paramount".   - Eva Williams     Tahnee and Eva discuss: Doula work. Ultrasounds. Inducing labour. Foetal monitoring. Dolphin midwives. Birth preparation. Empowered birth. Tantric practices. Devine Female Orgasm. Self-pleasure practices. Feminine embodiment. Female sexuality and birth. The pelvis is a fluid body. Somatics and embodiment. Time constraints placed on pregnancy and birthing.   Who is Eva Louise Williams? Eva Louise Williams is a healer and teacher with over a decade of experience in bodywork, energy work, and feminine sexual cultivation techniques. She began her journey at 18 learning reiki and pranic healing, before becoming initiated into Kriya yoga (the lineage of Babaji) at 20, then went on to study Shiatsu, Japanese Acupuncture, and Taoist sexual cultivation techniques. She began teaching others at 26 and received the transmission for Golden Lotus at the age of 29. She currently has over 10,000 hours of experience as a bodyworker and teacher. Eva is also a doula, a birth educator, and an RYT 500 in tantric Hatha and kundalini lineages. Golden Lotus was founded to both serve and lead female seekers towards awakening and remembering Self-love & trust. It is a series of teachings that cultivate spiritual and sovereign embodiment; the focus lies in stabilising, purifying, and awakening through ancient techniques and spiritual secrets taught through a state of ritual and Holy full-body Prayer.     CLICK HERE TO LISTEN ON APPLE PODCAST    Resources: goldenlotus.com Golden Lotus Instagram   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast? A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We'd also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher, CastBox, iHeart RADIO:)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:00) Hi everybody, and welcome to the SuperFeast Podcast. Today, I'm joined by Eva Williams. I'm really excited to have her here. I've been following her work online and she's really aligned with what we do at SuperFeast. She's an explorer of this wide world of Daoist medicine through the Japanese lineage, but also, she waves in, from what I can tell, you seem to bring in all these beautiful, different traditions, Sufism, Kriya yoga, different types of feminine embodiment, Pranic healing, that kind of stuff. So I'm really excited to have you here today. I'm really excited to share with our community your work.   Tahnee: (00:37) And if you guys are interested, we'll talk about it through the podcast, but Eva has a whole lot of resources on her website, courses you can do related to different aspects of a lot of the stuff we teach at SuperFeast. So thank you for joining us here today, Eva, it's such a pleasure to have you here.   Eva Williams: (00:53) My pleasure. Thank you so much.   Tahnee: (00:57) Yeah, I'm so excited. I think I first came across you on Instagram and I've had a look through what you offer. I know you haven't studied with Mantak, but it really seems aligned with a lot of the work that I learned through studying with him, the feminine work around energy cultivation. Obviously, you've studied Shiatsu and Japanese acupuncture. So you speak to the meridians and all those kinds of things. Would you mind telling us a bit about your journey here? How did you get to be offering Golden Lotus to the world?   Eva Williams: (01:30) Yeah, sure. All right. My journey's been quite interesting in terms of length because my mom is really into alternative medicine. I remember when I was six years old and I just had this incredibly bad tonsillitis, it was to the point where I was being taken out of school for days and days every week. And my mom noticed that I responded really, really well to the osteopath that she would take us to because she used to take us all three to the osteopath regularly. And so the osteopath said, "Look, this kid is responsive as hell. You should just take her to a cranial osteopath because that will help."   Eva Williams: (02:12) So I started going to this professional cranial osteopath when I was six, and it was the only thing that assisted, it was the only thing my body would really respond to. So really, from an early age, my mom knew that, particularly me, I think my brother and sister definitely as well, but particularly me, if anything would happen, like when I was 13 and I had anxiety, my mom was like, "Oh, we could put her on anti-anxiety or we could do reflexology with Bach flower remedies." And also, I had psoriasis, I had developed psoriasis when I was 13. And psoriasis, for those of you who don't know, is a skin issue, and it's one of these just really stubborn, autoimmune things.   Eva Williams: (02:55) Anything that's autoimmune is basically, no offence to all of the fantastic doctors and the medical community, but anything that's autoimmune is basically in the realm of, "We don't really know what the fuck is happening, so here's some steroids. That's where we're at." And so I started trying out these different things and some of them are called like bowel neurotherapies, which are where you'd have a salt bath and then UV light therapy or something like that. And there's not a lot of sun in the Netherlands where I was living at the time. So I started getting into this world where every time I'd be going to this clinic, I'd be checking out the cards on the notice board.   Eva Williams: (03:34) And there'd always be like random things like Karma healing or like emotional Chakra clearing. And one day I found this card and I was like, "This is so good." I walked around with this card for like a week or two, and then I called the person. And I remember, as soon as I called her, she was like, "Yeah, how can I help you?" I'm like, "Look, I don't really know what you do. Do you speak English? I don't really know what you do, but I feel really like this is something that I need to try." And she was like, "Hmm, no, you need Dini." I was like, "I'm sorry, have we even met? I'm trying to book an appointment with you."   Eva Williams: (04:04) And she was like, "No, you need Dini." I was like, "Oh, okay. I need Dini." And then this woman was this like 75-year-old woman who looked so young. And she was like, "How old do you think I am?" I'm like, "We've been through this before." She was just amazing. And she barely spoke any English. And I remember I was 15 when I first went to see her, and she did Meridian massage. She did Meridian clearing and healing. She was just a healer, so she would tell me a bunch of different things, and then she would do this work on me. She would tell me things that I look back on now, I'm like, "Dude, she was so on point."   Eva Williams: (04:44) But at the time, I was like, "What the fuck is she talking about?" She's like, "You're taking on a lot from your father." I'm like, "Okay."   Tahnee: (04:51) What does that mean?   Eva Williams: (04:51) Exactly. And now, I'm like, "I'm that person." But it was quite a unique experience. And I remember when she first read my astrology chart, she just looked at me. And it was very Dutch. The Dutch are very dry, they don't beat around the bush, they're very pragmatic and straightforward. And she was like, "Wow, that's not good." I was like, "Why are you doing this to me?" So she started saying to me really early on when I was 15, 16, I didn't like high school, so I left high school when I was 15 to teach myself. She started saying to me really regularly, "You have to promise me that you will do this work." She's like, "Do you think what I do is amazing?" I'm like, "I think it's pretty out there."   Eva Williams: (05:36) And she's like, "Okay, but what you are going to do is this, but much, much more." And she's like, "You have to promise me." And my mom taught me from when I was really young that a promise is a really strong word and you don't use it if you can't keep it. So I was like, "Far out, man, this is my life ahead of me and you want me to..., " But she sent me to some other people, liquid crystal healers and all sorts of things, so I was getting into some really bizarro stuff. And I wasn't telling my parents that much about this because it no longer had this homoeopathic application anymore. Now, it was just like, "Fuck it, I'm going to go on a journey and meet the [inaudible 00:06:07]. See you later."   Eva Williams: (06:08) I was getting into some really out-there stuff at like 16, 17, but it was, it was really amazing. So I followed that thread and I taught myself, I homeschooled myself. And I got into a really great university. And so I went to university, everyone told me people are more free thinking in university, etc, etc. And I thought, "Okay, great." But actually I didn't find that, I actually found that the institutionalised information had just become denser. I didn't find that people were more free thinking, I found that there were more presumptions. And especially for someone who didn't go through the IB or the international baccalaureate programme, it was really difficult for me.   Eva Williams: (06:51) I had some really awakening moments, just some really jarring stuff happened where I was like, "I don't think I really belong here." And my dad moved to India that year, and so my brother and sister and I all went to see him in India. My dad's a geologist, so all around the house, ever since we were little, we'd had tumbled rocks, amethyst, turquoise, this or that. So he was always teaching us about all these crystals. So when my brother and I got to India, we saw the tumbled rocks, these beautiful amethyst, and we both took one. We were like, "Let's go to the Himalayas."   Eva Williams: (07:28) He's like, "Yeah, let's learn yoga from a really old yogi." I was like, "Yeah, let's go do that." So and I was like, "Dad, I'm taking this rock with me." He's like, "If you take that, you're bringing it back. That's my rock." So I took this amethyst in my pocket and I went into the Himalayas. And I met a woman and she... I wanted to study Reiki, that was my thing. She just looked at me and she was like, "Hey, look, I'm going to give you these codes for all the different levels of Reiki, and then I need you to come back and I want you to teach my level two students." I'm like, "Lady, I just walked in here. I don't know what Reiki is yet."   Tahnee: (08:01) I've got to learn.   Eva Williams: (08:06) "I've got a nab at this, I had a dream on the bus. There's a lot going on right now. I don't think I'm ready to teach people something I haven't learned." But what she was picking up on was that I could touch people and feel what they were experiencing. So I came back the next day, and I was just putting my hands on people and I just explained what I could see or feel. And she's like, "You need to promise me ... " I was like, "You know what, I've heard all of this before, my friend. I have heard all of this before." So I went back to the Netherlands to university, and I was doing my 30 days. You have to do this self Reiki thing after you do Reiki.   Eva Williams: (08:45) And during that period of time, I was like, "I'm not meant to be an architect, I'm not meant to be doing what I'm doing. And so I need to go." And so I gave away everything I owned and I said to my dad, "I'm free again." And he's like, "Yeah, great. You left high school twice and now you're leaving an international honours university. This is a great run you're having over here. I hope you put my amethyst back."   Tahnee: (09:07) Yeah. So proud.   Eva Williams: (09:10) He's like, "You'll face... " I'm joking. And he was like, "Okay, look, you've always been who you are, no one's stopping that. But what are you going to do? You should have a bit of a plan." And I was like, "Yeah, well, what do I have to my name?" He's laughing. He's like, "What do you have to your name? You're a broke student. You have nothing but a ticket home to New Zealand that I will give you until you're 22." So I was like, "All right, great. I'll take it." So I went to New Zealand for three weeks and I went for a Reiki session. And this woman, she did that same thing, she's like, "You don't need me, you need Barbara and you need Jan."   Eva Williams: (09:43) And I'm like, "Okay, send me the names." So I started exploring all these different modalities of incredible light work, just incredible, incredible things while I was there. I go down to the ocean and dolphins would come and visit me, and then I'd go see the healers, and they're like, "You called those dolphins." I'm like, "Okay. All right. Let's calm down." But now I'm like, "We all call the dolphins." Now, I'm like, "Of course, I called the dolphins."   Tahnee: (10:07) They're our people.   Eva Williams: (10:08) My allies. They came to me in my hour of need. It was just a beautiful time. And then one day, in my heart, I just heard... I was waiting for that moment where you hear it from within, because I have a very active mind, so I can make up whatever I want to hear. But I heard Melbourne from my heart. And I was like, "Okay, that's where it's going to be." So I called my parents, I'm like, "I'm going to Melbourne." They were like, "Oh, thank God, she's got a plan." And I went there and I thought I was going to stay doing something graphic design or something design oriented, because that's a big part of my passion in life.   Eva Williams: (10:42) And I found the Australian Shiatsu College, and I found my shakes. I found my Sufi shakes. And once I found these two things, everything else fell in line. Yes, I was initiated into Kriya yoga over when I was 21, which was amazing. When I was 20, still finding my feet, I hadn't found the college yet, I hadn't found my shakes yet. I used to lie in my bedroom listening to singing balls. And that was this one guy who I just loved, very camp, but amazing, but just incredible sound healer, just such an amazing heart and soul. And he would just put all this water in a bow and he'd be like, "These are the dolphin's ball, the dolphins are coming to sing us."   Eva Williams: (11:26) And he would hit it and he would play it. And it was like, oh my God, this man, I don't even know where he comes from, but he's amazing." So one day I fell asleep, listening to this and I woke up and how you know YouTube just plays. And I saw this image on my screen, and I looked at it and it was this blue light and this golden man. And it just said, "The golden body of the Yogi." And I knew in that moment this is why I'm on the planet. This is why I'm on the planet. And so then I found out who that was, and that was an image of Babaji. And so then I found out about Kriya yoga.   Eva Williams: (12:00) And it's interesting because when I had looked for yoga schools in India years before, the only ones that I had found that I wanted to go to were the Kriya yoga schools. And so I became initiated into the Kriya yoga lineage of the Babaji and then his disciple Lahiri Mahasaya, and then Sri Yukteswar, and Paramahamsa Yogananda. And that was the beginning of things unlocking for me. And then I found Shiatsu in oriental medicine, and I went on to study Japanese acupuncture. And then I also found a teacher, a female teacher, and she did a beautiful mixture of yoga and Daoist work with the Jade egg. And then through the studies that I was doing and her even teaching in the same building, I just made this place my home and we'd get all these amazing international practitioners.   Eva Williams: (12:50) I found myself picking up exactly what I needed from that, including doula training and all sorts of things like this that were going on in the space. And then I worked at a Japanese bath house after I graduated for five years or so, I think it was, or something around that. And I really was so lucky because even if you want to rack up hours as a practitioner, it's very hard to find a place to be doing flat out work as Shiatsu practitioner just right out of school. But I was able to rack up at 10,000 hours really quickly in my first, I would say, first six or seven years of work.   Eva Williams: (13:27) And then I went to Bali, I got married. I went to Bali for a honeymoon, and then I just decided I was going to move to Dubai because it was something I really wanted to do. And then about a year into being in Dubai, I was just lying in the bathtub and I just had this full download through my body. And these images came to me and all this stuff and I was just being told what to do like, "You need to write this down, you need to go and get these things." And I was told to build out a whole altar. So I had this massive altar. And I was just sitting in front of it like, "Okay, I now live in a church. What next?"   Eva Williams: (14:06) My husband, he was in Iraq at the time, so he wasn't home. So I was like, "Nobody's going to know about my weird little mat?" And then when he came home, he's like, "That's a lot of candles. Do you need to light all of them at once? Are we doing a séance? What's happening here?" But as I was doing this, the spirits of these different plants I've been told to buy exactly 13 were coming to me, people were sending me things. I was finding things that I'd had in my library for a long time, I'd just never seen them with that particular glow or from that angle, that a transmission was coming through.   Eva Williams: (14:41) And I basically just sat down and I wrote the 10 transmissions of level one of Golden Lotus, which is the eight extraordinary vessels and the 12 main meridians. Unless you do a practitioner training, I don't do Triple Warmer and Pericardium. So it's basically just the five elements. So water, wood, earth, metal as it were, and fire. And then the eight extraordinary. But we do the Chong Mai twice because it has the main vessel and then two other vessels. And for the purpose of female sexual cultivation, it's important actually to separate those two. And then from there, it just started unlocking, like level two became the three gates of orgasm and just the content was just pouring down.   Eva Williams: (15:28) And it was a mixture between a really pure transmission I was being guided to and led to, and then a really deep weaving of just years and years. I'm very, very autodidactic because I didn't go to high school even, so my ability to sit and research and work if I have the impetus is quite high. If not, guess what?   Tahnee: (15:54) Very low. I can relate to that.   Eva Williams: (16:00) I'm like, "Let's have a show of hands." I'm pretty sure everyone's like, "Yeah, that's a... '' So I was able to just channel this, and then it just was really natural that these two modalities, the way it's structured is that the level one is really about working with the Yoni egg, so the Jade egg. It's really about clearing your own body, detoxing and recentralizing through the pelvis. So clearing trauma in the pelvis, opening the sensitivity of the pelvis, and really weaving in the whole rest of the body to a pelvic alignment. So beginning to really understand all of these different reflex zones that we have in the body that all relate to the pelvis.   Eva Williams: (16:43) And I don't just mean the internal reflex zones of the different organ systems, I also mean really beginning to explore somatically the balance between the sacrum and the buttock and the stone and the breasts, or how there's different alignments of your pelvis and your jaw and your mouth. And there's multiple different ways that we can set up these reflexologies that allow us to have a sense that we're hinging from the pelvis. So it's very much about coming into that, and it's not supposed to be... It's supposed to basically teach you how to come into contact with your own energy, to disperse it through your whole body so that you can actually have proper tantra experiences and also to self-regulate.   Eva Williams: (17:23) Because the level two work, it's almost like we go from a pelvic central model out to the body. And then the next level is all more explicit. So it's like self-pleasure practises. Or if we do like a retreat, we'll do some touch exchange practises. If you come to my clinic, I will do internal work at times, things like this. And so that's very triggering work. And I've seen, because I have been in many of these schools with sexual energy, the lack of self-regulation that is taught before highly activating practises come into play. And I didn't like that.   Eva Williams: (18:02) And so while I didn't necessarily plan the way that Golden Lotus was channelled, it is a very deep reflection of the beliefs in the general that I've taken, which is that we need to prepare our body before we do all this highly sexual activating practise. Because otherwise, I think one of the big things in the tantra communities and things that's happened is, it's just become all about sex dressed up as something spiritual, you know?   Tahnee: (18:26) Oh, I know.   Eva Williams: (18:28) You're like, "Really? I've never come across this before."   Tahnee: (18:31) I'm just laughing because I spent some time at Agama Yoga in Thailand I have never laughed so hard. We did a 10 day silent meditation and we were asked to abstain from sex for 10 days. And every day, someone would ask, "I really feel like I need to have sex today. Could I possibly not have... " I was like, "So you guys can't go 10 days without touching yourself or someone else." I've never seen anything like it. So if you love Agama, I found it a really toxic culture. It was almost high school. I was really shocked.   Eva Williams: (19:10) It's infamous. It's infamous for this. My teacher went there, one of my teachers was there and she told me all about it. And then even recently, I was sitting with a friend and I was mentioning some of these things, and she was like, "Oh my gosh. One time, when I was at the very beginning of my path, I went to this place." And as soon as she said it, I knew. I was like, "I know where you were talking about. I've never been there myself, but it's infamous."   Tahnee: (19:37) It was an experience. Yes, I hear you.   Eva Williams: (19:37) I think that this thing is also, I think a lot of people come into tantra with a concept of partner base in mind, and the way that I was trained, particularly with my teachers in this more Sufi tradition and things like this, I never went into any of this work looking for my sexuality. I never thought I would only work with women, I never thought I would be working with birth. This was not my aim. My aim was just to heal people. I worked on everyone. And ultimately, my aim was just to find God, I just wanted to have a very deep spiritual experience or a series of those. And so that over time guided into that direction, I just saw the level of care and sobriety that was cultivated within me before putting me onto that path.   Eva Williams: (20:30) The level of deep devotion and sobriety to my own self-development was paramount. And so there wasn't a sense of like there was a real sense that I wasn't allowed to just mess around, I wasn't allowed to just go to whatever workshop I wanted or something. I was really guided very strongly as to what is an integrity and what is not an integrity as far as transmissions go. And I'm very grateful for that. At least it worked for me within my system of integrity. So then basically it brought the birth of this beautiful work and I think that people love it when they do it, and I think people do feel that they can regulate themselves through it.   Eva Williams: (21:12) And that work for me, very, very naturally falls into birth work. If you are learning how to move and you're learning all these different ways of detoxing and opening your body and then you're learning these three gates of orgasm, which is very specifically sent into the pelvis, so then we are really going into the semantics of the pelvis alone. If you're doing all of that work, that is the birth prep is just extraordinary. And so I developed that into a birthing programme as well, because we need more of that. I think that you're not really taught how much prep goes into birth until you're pregnant.   Tahnee: (21:48) And it's really not a great time then to be exploring.   Eva Williams: (21:52) No. Not at all because it's traumatic.   Tahnee: (21:53) Because of your trauma.   Eva Williams: (21:53) You can definitely do some work on it then, but you need some guidance and holding through that because unwinding trauma can take a really long time, the somatic body's not quick   Tahnee: (22:10) Not fast, very slow.   Eva Williams: (22:17) It really likes to take its time.   Tahnee: (22:17) Oh man, it's so true. And I think what is so interesting about what you're speaking to though with coming into birth work, I know for me, I did muntuk's work and I was having internal work there and working with eggs and clearing those, that whole period of time was big for me. It was unpleasant in some ways and really beautiful and powerful in other ways. But I came to birth and I remember thinking like, "If I hadn't done that work, I wouldn't be able to hold myself through pregnancy and birth the way I've been able to, through pregnancy and birth."   Tahnee: (22:56) And you are speaking to this sense of sobriety and this sense of strength and just the ability to hold your own energy and read your own energy and tune into it, I think that's the piece for women going in and it's like, you're going to have people try and tell you things that you have to filter through, your truth filters. You have to make decisions around your sovereignty and around your care that you probably... These are big decisions and you don't have much context for them usually. I know for me even being fairly educated, there's just stuff I was like, "Do I have to do this? What are the rules?"   Tahnee: (23:32) And I think if you don't have that strong foundation, I think that's stuff golden lotus, it sounds like it just provides that container for women to start to build that trust in themselves so they can go and then really be open to what is honestly the most incredible experience you can have as a woman. I know woman choose not to birth, but for me, profound, but a lot of preparation too, I think in my experience.   Eva Williams: (23:58) I think it's really underestimated how much prep it takes. And I think it's also, to understand that you've got so much content that you want to read about the spiritual, about the physiological, but also how much you've got to inform yourself around just-   Tahnee: (24:13) Practical.   Eva Williams: (24:14) Yeah. Just random medical stuff, because we are taught to just, if someone's wearing a white coat, they know. They wouldn't suggest it if it wasn't for your best.   Tahnee: (24:23) Is that true?   Eva Williams: (24:23) That's not true. And it's sad. It's so sad to acknowledge that, but that's unfortunately the truth. And so I'm in the process of putting together a programme now which really takes people, basically it's like a month-by-month programme. So you can buy the modules as a month or you can buy them as a whole. And it's got workbooks and meditations. It addresses the emotional, the spiritual, how far along your baby is and where they're growing.   Eva Williams: (24:57) And it really also, for me, there's like this very strong concept of, you have the mother, you have the child, and then you have the mother-child unit, this third that's being generated and they call it mama toto in Swahili, this concept of the mother-child. And to build a bridge between these things because one of the things that I've noticed in for example, certain modalities like APA, like the pre and perinatal psychology, people who do fantastic work is that one of the main... how do I explain this for people who don't maybe come from this context? Someone asked me recently, how can you tell if your doula is a good doula? How can you choose a good doula?   Eva Williams: (25:44) How many stars are there in the sky, my friend? And then immediately it came to me, I know it really... And I realised that the doula that I really, we don't even call ourselves doula's anymore because we consider ourselves more birth keepers or birth workers because the work gets so close to midwifery at a certain stage that the idea that you are not advocating for a client or all these sorts of things, it doesn't have a place when you get to a certain level of birth work. And these women, all of them speak to the baby individually to the mother. And immediately I realise, "Oh, if your doula will have an individual relationship to the baby, as they do to you, but they are there for you, to me, that's a good doula."   Eva Williams: (26:38) And I know that sounds strange, but I come very much from this concept that the baby is always the most conscious being in the room, born or unborn. And so if we can begin to actually... What I would love for more women to know is that a lot of women really get bogged down with this idea like, "It's me, it's my body. Yes, my partner's helping me, but I have to carry this. I feel heavy, this baby's relying on me." And so there becomes almost a scarcity of this really deep sense of drudgery or something related, or just a deep sense of lack of support that becomes related to birth.   Eva Williams: (27:10) And one of the things that I think is really important for women to understand is neither on a physiological level, not spiritual level are you alone? This baby is the one that will release the hormone that will tell your body and your stomach when to dilate. This child will send stem cells to heal your body into your blood. This child is there for you, and this child is leading this labour actually. So this child is bringing you energy and bringing you protection, and bringing you gifts of healing. And this moment is actually for you, it's not happening to you, it's happening for you.   Eva Williams: (27:49) So the moment that that child is born is your rebirth as well, it is your moment to also let go and let something new come through. And I think that interconnection, that interplay is what allows women to not just trust their body, which is one of the thing that I wish more people could establish prior to falling pregnant, we should call it rising pregnant, "I rose pregnant."   Tahnee: (28:14) It's beautiful.   Eva Williams: (28:16) But also that they begin to trust not just their body, but the baby. So they're like, "Yeah, my body knows how to do this and this, baby's got this, I've got it. Our relationship got it and my body's got it. So this is what's going to happen." And just really leading from that place. And for many people, that might sound fantastical, but the more that we're going to understand birth, the more that we look at what's happening with the stem cells, the more that we look at the neurology and the physiology of labour itself and the more that if you have done that previously, you'll know that this is real, this is actually what's happening, that there is this very deep exchange of support.   Eva Williams: (28:56) And that's what I think is the most powerful thing is when a woman trusts so innately in her body and in the child that has chosen her to take this journey, that bond is what's leading the labour. I just think that that's very powerful. So the course that I've developed is to try to assist with that, and then obviously is also bringing different movements for different trimesters because different parts of the body obviously get affected at different times, and hypnobirthing scripts and of dolphin and whale stuff going on there, because you know, our allies.   Tahnee: (29:31) It's so funny all the stuff you're speaking about. With my daughter, she's five now, nearly five, but I had a dolphin come to me while I was pregnant with her in the water. And she had me through the whole pregnancy, guiding everything. I was doing body work at the time and I had this really strong download that I had to stop. And I remember contacting my teacher, who's the female teacher of Chi Nei Tsang from Mantak Chia. She was like, "If the baby's telling you to stop your stuff," and I had this golden thread with her and she was this little golden being, so probably about, I think around two dissolved completely. It got weaker and weaker over time. But just all of that stuff...   Tahnee: (30:17) And I had a lot of stuff going on in my life when I was pregnant with her and she just held me like I was... I remember thinking, "I should be really stressed out right now, but I feel really safe and really held through this." And it took me a little while to realise that that was her contributing that to my experience. And I think that trust is something she gave me, which I think is a really beautiful thing. I'm halfway through my pregnancy now, I'm four months, but this pregnancies been really different for me. So it's interesting. I'm interested to see how they play out, because I haven't had that same sense of baby protection or strong baby messages.   Tahnee: (31:03) But I'm interested in that space because I think it's hard to talk about that stuff as a woman, the midwives I had were very practical, wonderful women, but they were very grounded and of the earth. And you had a textbook pregnancy and a textbook birth, well done? And I was like, "Yeah, but what about all this cool stuff that's happening to me?" And they were like, "We don't want to talk about that stuff." I was like, "Okay."   Eva Williams: (31:33) It's a shame actually because it's weird thing-   Tahnee: (31:35) I'm glad you're here.   Eva Williams: (31:35) What did you say?   Tahnee: (31:38) That I'm glad you're here in the world.   Eva Williams: (31:41) Dolphins are so important in birth. That's so important. People who are not getting this message, I'm like, "You guys have to... " I always tell my clients, I'm like, "Just Google." I'll be like, "Yeah, the dolphin midwives." And then everyone at the table laughed. I'm like, "Huh." Wait until you see it.   Tahnee: (31:57) It's true, Hawaii.   Eva Williams: (31:57) I know. And then I'm like, "Google it. You Google dolphin midwife." And people come back, "Whoa." I'm like, "Yeah, that's actually a"-   Tahnee: (32:01) And wasn't they doing it in Russia, the Google something?   Eva Williams: (32:05) They did, yes. Birthing to being, Alana's work was incredible.   Tahnee: (32:08) Because Jeannine Parvati Baker talks about it a lot in her work, and some other people have talked about studying.   Eva Williams: (32:16) I think the woman who found a birth into being, she had a centre in the Caspian sea where the dolphins would come in and people would just be freebirthing in the water, which is wild. And so we have over here, birth it's a very obstetric-run American imported system. It's pretty brutal. So we are looking at different birth centres talk of shifting some things around birth here because Dubai is like a playground in terms of, they're so open to new ideas. And people may not think of them like that from the outside, but they really are.   Eva Williams: (32:56) They're so innovative and there's some very special, very, very, very special energy to the Emiratis to the Bedouin people, just something very special. So we were looking at working with a very beautiful woman whose work I incorporate a lot into mine, her name's Dr. Gallery. And she has some beautiful, gentle birth clinics in London and things like this. And she said, "Oh yes, I'd love to come out and do something with you guys in Dubai, but I only want to work with the dolphins." And she's a full OB/GYN. And I was like, "You and me, this is going to work so well." I was like, "Scrap all the land we've found, we're going to the ocean."   Eva Williams: (33:43) I was like, "This is the future of it. This is the future of birth." And I think that there's a lot of beautiful places in Cairo and around Egypt as well like in Sharm El Sheikh and in the Red Sea that we might begin to also see really beautiful work with the dolphins popping up. And I know that a couple of people that I know have wanted to do things like this in the North of Ibiza, and South, but the problem is the water's very cold over there, so it's not really something that can work as well. But in these waters, when the dolphin comes to the baby, it is telling you that you are going to give birth soon. Maybe in this instance, I don't know where you were in your pregnancy.   Tahnee: (34:18) No. I was heavily pregnant. My husband I got engaged there, and we got married there. It's this very special spot for us. And I was standing probably naval deep in water and it came, honestly, I was terrified. I was not like, "Oh my God." I was like, "Ah, I think a dolphin is coming at me." And it whooshed so close to me. My husband was out deep and he turned around and saw the dolphin and was like, "Whoa." And then there was a whole pod behind him. But it broke off and came and checked me out. And they can sonar heartbeats and stuff so I was thinking it must have been checking me out and being like, "What are you doing?"   Eva Williams: (35:00) So what they do is when you're very heavily pregnant, if they come towards you and if they put the nose toward the belly or come very close to you, usually you're always going to give birth.   Tahnee: (35:08) I thought it was going to scare me.   Eva Williams: (35:08) Oh, what a lovely experience.   Tahnee: (35:14) I was not like, "Oh my God." Seriously, I was like, "Holy crap, is this safe?"   Eva Williams: (35:18) I know. Every time I was in New Zealand and dolphins came as well, I was swimming in the water and I just shot bowl upright and I was standing and I was like, "There's something in the water." And I'd hear these voices like, "It's okay." I'm like, "It's definitely not fucking okay." My instinct body was like, "This is not okay." And my spiritual body was like, "It's going to be okay." And every part of me was like, "That's fine, but I'm still going to stand because I can run, and those, they can swim. This is not my territory."   Tahnee: (35:45) It's true.   Eva Williams: (35:49) It's so true. But they can activate the labour. They can do this really strongly by communicating with the child as well. It's something very, very powerful.   Tahnee: (35:58) Super cool. And the indigenous people here where we are, they believe that they are their people. Every time I've been in any ceremony or anything they will speak to the whales and the dolphins here as being ancestors.   Eva Williams: (36:10) Yeah. They bring children.   Tahnee: (36:14) Yeah. It makes a lot of sense.   Eva Williams: (36:18) I believe they bring the children because they don't just turn up when a woman's very pregnant to assist in the physiological activation of the hormonal aspects of labour, many, many women will see dolphins on the night they conceive or at the time or just before conception. And whenever a woman's like, "Yeah, we're trying to get pregnant. Oh, I saw dolphins." I'm like, "You go have baby." I had a friend and she saw porpoises. They're not even dolphins, I was like, "You go have a baby." And they did the ultrasound and they tuned it back to that time.   Tahnee: (36:49) Perhaps they're related to a dolphin somehow.   Eva Williams: (36:51) I'm like, "It could be a manatees, I don't care, you're having a baby." I'm joking.   Tahnee: (36:59) An orca. Let's not get too crazy. But it's okay. Tell me about this primary thing. That's interesting, because I know if you're not aware of this, I don't know if we've spoken about this on the podcast yet, so the hormonal cascade that the baby triggers in the mother, this is all these beautiful juicy hormones like oxytocin and things that, A, make birth less painful, which is a good thing. And B, obviously also the whole cascade of uterine contractions, breast milk coming in, all of these things. So the baby actually triggers that. And one of the things that happens a lot in our culture is we induce, or if there's an obstetrician that my midwife shared with me who wants to induce everyone at 38 weeks in a hospital near us.   Tahnee: (37:40) And this kind of thing just terrifies me, and I have friends who've waited 43 weeks plus for their babies to come.   Eva Williams: (37:48) Especially plus babies.   Tahnee: (37:51) My daughter was 42 weeks on the day. And I just think, can you speak a little bit to women who might have fear around, "I'm getting pressure from my OB/GYN or my midwife to induce." I know it's a real slippery topic, but at least speak to that.   Eva Williams: (38:06) No, no. It's not. I don't think it's slippery at all, I think it's underdressed. And it's interesting, I remember, so here they've got DHA, the Dubai Health Authority, has a policy around a certain time. Even if your OB/GYN is more liberal, there's a certain red tape that they can't really cross. And so I remember the first hospital birth I did in Dubai, home birth is illegal here by the way. It's actually not illegal to give birth at home, it's illegal for anyone to assist, anyone who has a licence issued by the government could get it taken away if they assist you.   Eva Williams: (38:44) So if you bring in a midwife from overseas or for me, I'm not an OB/GYN or a midwife, so I'm also not really assisting people with home births here because I don't think that's necessarily a great thing to do. But if someone were in labour and it was progressing really quickly, rather than stress them out and shove them into a car, I think I know what I'd probably end up doing. But it's an interesting thing because I remember the very first one I attended, the OB/GYN was just pressuring my clients so hard and she was outside and afterwards she was crying.   Eva Williams: (39:20) She's like, "I don't know what to do." And so obviously, as a birth worker, I've got 117 different things to pull out of the cupboard because I'm acupuncture, Im like okay acupuncture, we've been doing Homoeopathy week, 36 or 38 at that point, let's try some different homoeopathy, maybe something that's addressing more of the fears and emotions. Let's do massage, let's do the dirty three, hot food, a glass of wine and have some sex, all of that. And then also internal work, massage the cervix, check how it phased someone is, just at that stage of pregnancy. So we did a really beautiful ceremony of her husband and her on the bed, and I did the internal work. It was very dark. We put on music.   Eva Williams: (40:10) And we just really checked out what was happening, what the engagement was. So not a vaginal exam, but just to actually see, and definitely not a sweep or something, none of that stuff I'm trained in, but just really actually to feel how the effacement was going, how the pelvis was feeling, what was actually getting caught up in the pelvic. Was there something caught up there or was she just not ready? And for me, it was really clear that she's just not ready. It's her first baby, it's 39 weeks and the baby is just not ready. It's not coming yet.   Eva Williams: (40:38) I think that what's difficult about getting pressure... I remember after this situation, I gave them all these techniques. I said, "We're going to make a plan. Don't worry." And they felt better, and I went to my car and I just fucking sat in my car and cried for 20 minutes. The sense of stress and pressure, and it's not even my baby, that happens in that room when a doctor strong arms you and tells you that what they know is right, when it may not feel right for you, is so intense. And I know that doctors don't fully understand that. I know that OB/GYNs, not all of them fully understand that. I have the great privilege of working with many who do.   Eva Williams: (41:17) And I remember during this labour, I was sitting out in the hallway and I was just crying. And the doctor came to me and she's like, "Why are you crying?" I'm like, "Dude, you're pushing so hard. This is ridiculous. This is going to end really not well." And then she started tearing up and sat down next to me. And she's like, "It's just a lot of pressure." And we were just having this full heart to heart, just weeping in the hallway. Like, "What the fuck?" But it managed to buy me another 48 hours for my clients, which is amazing.   Tahnee: (41:46) Good work.   Eva Williams: (41:52) It's so much pressure. It's so much pressure. The thing is that there's very little that actually requires induction. Things that do not require induction, your baby is too big for your pelvis, it's a big baby, your baby has passed 40 weeks, meconium has passed, the cord is around the neck. These are not reasons for induction and they're not reasons for C-sections either. It's just very intense. I think some something that people don't understand is that an OB/GYN or a medical professional on your birth is someone that you want there in an emergency situation, they have no requirement to witness physiological birth. They have none. They do not have to witness a single, natural, physiological birth as part of their training, they have to do surgery.   Eva Williams: (42:48) So their whole frame of reference is coming that birth as an emergency. They have never had to sit. If you ask an OB/GYN what's a normal to long labour, I had an OB/GYN tell me that 10 hours was a long labour. I'm like, "Jesus Christ, what are you guys having? Have you got a slip slide set up out here." I was on a midwife tour recently in Aspen, someone's like, "How does labour take?" And the midwife's like, "It can take up to two hours." I was like, "What?" If it's your fourth baby and you're at nine centimetres. It's just ridiculous.   Tahnee: (43:19) Wow.   Eva Williams: (43:19) Yeah, I know. I know. And I always think to myself like, "Wow, I think that 40 hours of fairly active labour is long." I think that labour from early labour onward can go on for a week. That's the sort of time I'm willing to just give a woman and her body to just dilate at its pace and do its thing, and it's just unheard of. So if people are getting pressure to induce and it's funny, because we've made this thing over here and we're not doing it yet, but it's a couple of doulas and I have this, it's kind of our joke, but I also want to do it. And it's going to be for women who for partners, 36 and 37 weeks onward, and it's going to be the induction group.   Eva Williams: (44:01) Basically, you all come together and we watch a funny movie or a beautiful movie about birth, and you get a glass of red wine. We're not getting hammered over here, but you get a glass of red wine. We have some food, whether it's Indian or Thai, something with a little bit of spice, a little bit Mexican or something, and you just share. And you can share if it's stressful, you can share if it's funny, we share content and information. And then if you want to stay for the second part, we teach something like certain techniques, maybe not actually internal, but certain techniques like clitoral stroking or labial massage or hip massage or things like that that your partner can do that will assist in your hips getting ready and things like that.   Eva Williams: (44:42) And just from 37 weeks on, everyone is welcome to just join, come, have that glass of wine, just get a move on. Do a bit of dancing, have a bit of laughter. Because the group, you share more pheromonal energy. Because that's something that isn't readily shared, adrenaline and cortisol inhibit oxytocin. So if you're stressed, you cannot go into natural labour, they inhibit one another. So if women are feeling stressed about being induced, the thing that they really need is they need to disconnect from the timeline of intensity, they really need the opportunity to disconnect from that.   Eva Williams: (45:17) So if the doctor's pressuring you and says, "Okay, well take your time, but I need to see you again in two or three days." Don't go, don't go in two or three days. If they need to see you again, they can see you in a week. All they're going to do is an ultrasound and whatever, maybe a sweep. Give yourself the space that your body needs. And also, really, really, really take your homoeopathy from 36 weeks, from 36 weeks, be taking your homoeopathy and be taking just this very gentle way of beginning to release the stress on the system. Take the aconite, take the arnica.   Eva Williams: (46:00) Another thing that's really important, and again, this all goes back to prep, because if you're doing everything at the last moment, you're going to be dealing with a lot. In the programme that I run, around third 30 to 34 weeks, in between this time before your GBS test, we explore different internal works. And not necessarily me doing that, but maybe it's related to sex with the husband, maybe it's related to self-pleasure, maybe it's just internal gaze and interception kind of meditation, but we start unblocking and unlocking anything that might be held in the pelvis.   Eva Williams: (46:37) And then also, if you have a chiro, there's the Webster technique, or if you have a Bowen therapist who can do the sacral... There's a series of sacral releases that they can do. Anything you can do to prepare your body, to feel really good and open, speak to your cervix, ripen your cervix, yourself, speak to it, see beautiful pink light moving through it. All of these things work, they really, really work. And what doesn't work is being pressured into having a baby, it just doesn't fucking work. There's no evidence to support that it's ever worked.   Eva Williams: (47:11) It's insane, even with the foetal monitoring, even that, there's the only proof that it actually has any benefit is it there's no proof. The only thing that it's actually done is increased C-section rates. And so, these sorts of things, we have to just be really mindful of what the outcome is. Is the outcome an alive baby or is the outcome an empowered woman who knows herself and knows her body and can recover in the postpartum process because she's actually connected to the child, because oxytocin is also a huge part of recovery. It's what's bringing the colostrum and the breast milk, it's what's actually involuting the uterus.   Eva Williams: (47:52) So if we don't have this connection from the outside, if we're having those issues, then we also face a much longer recovery period. And that's when you really begin to see from an emotional perspective, from a body work perspective. If I see diastasis, like a herniated diastasis or something like this, for me, that's always that the woman has been opened in the birth process, but she hasn't had the closing afterwards, so she has no centre. Can you imagine what it would be doing to your back, to not have your rectus abdominis working? Basically, your back would be as stiff as a board, and that's a woman who feels that she's not supported. She hasn't been supported through that process.   Eva Williams: (48:37) I don't know, this stuff is so intuitive and natural, it feels so natural to say, but we aren't there as a culture of medicine and we're not there as a culture of birth yet either, and it's difficult. And there's a way I just want to say to people, just protect kept yourself. But I actually love working with OB/GYNs and I do love working with the medical system when they get it right, and they very often, if you find the right people and places, they do get it right. I had a doula complain to me the other day about how, at this one hospital that's really great here, the midwife didn't even turn up and the baby just came out.   Eva Williams: (49:17) And I was like, "Is this a complaint? This is a complaint that the baby just naturally came out and the mother caught her home own baby?" I'm sorry, I don't feel the same level of stress around this that you feel. It's so beautiful to hear about less managed births. And this is for those people who are being pushed toward induction, this is called active management, basically, of expectations in relationship to doctors. And another thing to understand is that 40 weeks doesn't really mean much.   Tahnee: (49:52) So arbitrary.   Eva Williams: (49:54) It's insane. I'm not standardised by that. Some hospitals do it from the first day of your last period, some do it from the last day of your last period? It's just ridiculous and there's no evidence that proves that. I think of 10% of children come on their due day.   Tahnee: (50:11) Not good odds-   Eva Williams: (50:12) I know, right. Yes. And everyone wants to be fucking Natalie Portman or Kate Moss or something. And guess what, 1%. You know what I mean? It's one of these expectations that we set up. We are lying to women when we tell them that they should be fitting that mould, and we are taking away from them the opportunity for them to make their own mould of what it looks like. So contentious. It doesn't actually feel that contentious, it feels really straightforward, but whatever.   Tahnee: (50:39) Well, it's interesting because I think one thing for me with birth too, it felt like... I don't want to be in the feminine/masculine, for me, time when I'm in a feminine space, linear time is not a thing. It's not real, it doesn't exist and there's this just natural unfolding of things as they are. My feeling around birth was very much like we're trying to apply this very linear masculine dimension to it and it doesn't exist like that. I think this idea of 10 moons or being able to see it in this sense of it's with them and it's a flow, but it's not something that's going to happen on a day. I'm struggling with it right now, people are like, "What's your due date?"   Tahnee: (51:33) And I'm, "Well, I don't know, sometime in April." And they want a due date. Well, I do know it's April 1st, but I don't believe my baby's going to come on April 1st.   Eva Williams: (51:44) I can tell you what I do always is I just take the full moon of that month. And I was like, "She's not due, then she's due in the beginning of the month." I'm like, "I don't care."   Tahnee: (51:56) That's when they come.   Eva Williams: (51:57) The baby is now officially due on the full moon. Baby's like a full moon, that's what's happening. It doesn't mean we won't prepare and I don't necessarily calculate my weeks from that, I'll do it from that ultrasound or whatever. And the programme that we are doing is a 10-moon programme, it's 10 modules and they're 10 moons. Yeah, it's just recognising that children have a rhythm, it's not something that we can set or determine. That rhythm is related to obviously the tides of our own life. Some babies like a new moon. There's no set rules, you can't apply them one way or another, like you said.   Eva Williams: (52:33) And I love this idea that, look, birth is very much about learning about abundance, about our own abundance, that we can actually create a whole other being. It's this radiant space that we enter into. Adding scarcity of time to that means that a woman feels a scarcity of space. And if she's feeling a scarcity of time and space, as these two things do manifest together within her own body, you're taking away the whole dimension and realm that she needs to live inside of during her birth, like you said. It's this feminine space. And that doesn't mean that we can't have a plan during pregnancy, it doesn't mean that certain practises won't be better at different times.   Eva Williams: (53:12) It doesn't mean any of that, but it's the invasiveness of how we treat birth needs to stop. I'm working on a new project right now, and I'm very excited about it and I can't say much about it, but what I can say is that one of the main focuses of it is the removal of incredibly invasive techniques. And some of them aren't even necessarily invasive, they're just fucking disgusting like the gestational diabetes test.   Tahnee: (53:40) Oh, that was the only fucking thing I did last time. And I was like, "This is the most sugar I've had in my entire adult life." Maybe as a kid, I gorged on Lollies, but other than that." That's the only time I was sick in my pregnancy was after that.   Eva Williams: (53:54) Yes, so many women have said to me like, "Oh yeah, definitely, the most traumatic thing of my pregnancy was that time."   Tahnee: (54:01) I was like, "Fucking hell, guys." It's like nine Coca-Colas or something. I'm like, "Great."   Eva Williams: (54:07) And it's not necessary. It's not necessary because there's so many other ways to remediate or even to tell. And what was so funny is, I was with a client recently and she had to shift OB/GYNs because on her due date, the original OB/GYN is not going to be there. And so we had just gone to that OB/GYN and said, "Look, we're opting out of this." And she was ready to fight. She's like, "I don't want this person." I was like, "Just chill. I'm sure they'll be fine with it." Don't go in for a battle, that's one thing. All birth workers, everyone, just don't go in for a battle. If you have to put your armour on, do it, but don't go in for a battle. And the doctor was like, "Huh. I've been in birth for a long time and I've seen a lot of incredible advancements and devices and ultrasound and all sorts of things really. And yet they still haven't managed to make something less disgusting than that drink. That's okay. Don't worry about it."   Eva Williams: (55:01) Even an OB/GYN was like, "Yeah, you'd think we'd gotten to this level, but really it's just Lucozade, sugar." And then we had to go to this other one and really communicate once again like, "Hey, the preference is for this off the table." And she just was like, "That's the most disgusting drink in the world, I wouldn't push that test on anyone." I was like, "Wow."   Tahnee: (55:19) Amazing. That's a good change in culture. [crosstalk 00:55:22]. What's your rate on ultrasounds in general? I haven't spoken about this much on the podcast either, but I do get asked about it a lot, and there's the one side of it where people are like, "It's good to know and it gives you that reassurance." And then there's the other side, which is probably more of the side I'm on where it's like, "What would it tell me that actually... What benefit would that information actually give me?" So I'm curious as to your take on that as a birth keeper.   Eva Williams: (55:53) Well, it's a great topic. One thing I can definitely say is, you know your body, you've done a lot of work with your body. I have also clients who are just super on it, and yet sometimes, and I'm thinking of one person specific, that if a woman, for example, has a miscarriage or something like this, even if she isn't someone who would naturally or usually lean toward wanting ultrasound or something like that in that early part of the next pregnancy, it brings an enormous amount of relief to know that everything's going healthy.   Tahnee: (56:38) Reinsurance.   Eva Williams: (56:38) Exactly. If you have chromosomal issues in your life, those 12 week tests, in your family, for example, or even the 20-week morphology exams, they can bring a lot of knowledge. So from my perspective, what I usually say to women when they say, "What do you think is necessary, blah, blah." I said, "The first thing that's necessary is anything that will bring you comfort. If your level of comfort and certainty and anxiety will drop with each or any of those visits, then those are the ones that are necessary, because your emotional and mental wellbeing is more important to the baby's health and growth than anything that an ultrasound is going to do to your body. That's my perspective.   Eva Williams: (57:25) And then usually, they just say that the main tests that are important are your morphology, your 20, 21-week scan, and that's really just to see if there's any... For those of you who don't know, that's not really an ultrasound, it's a full building out of, they check all of the different organs.   Tahnee: (57:44) It's pretty cool. I was like, "Whoa. There's a kidney and there's a... "   Eva Williams: (57:53) They go in, they check all the tissues, they check the formation of the organs. This is technology that I'm grateful that we have because it can put a lot of decision making power into people's hands. And simultaneously, I know a lot of people who aren't down for it, they're like, "No way, that's even worse than an ultrasound. That's super intense for the baby, blah, blah, blah." For me, it's all about comfort. And I have had a couple birth workers recently and clients saying, they're like, "Well, I know you're very pro natural birth and this is not."   Eva Williams: (58:26) I'm like, "Hang on a minute. I'm not really for or against anything, I just don't really have a role to play. If you're planning a C-section... " I know what the body is capable of, and those are personal experiences that I've had. You can't take that away from me or I cannot pretend that I don't know what the physical body can do and what we may need to train for, but can actually get what this experience can be. So I can't take that out of my being that if you know that that's available, that you gravitate toward it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that I am anti anything."   Eva Williams: (59:03) I've had my time being anti epidural, and then I saw a series of Pilates teachers and yoga teachers who had super tight pelvic floors get an epidural after like 36 hours of labour, and just one hour, boom, baby was out. Really incredible experiences. Legs were still working, everything. So I can't go through the level of experience that I've had, I can't afford to fight anyone. I hate it in the birth world, I hate this, the fight that happens when people are... I believe in advocating that there's a point where if you can change that inside of yourself, you stop attracting moments to have those conversations. That's what I have found in my personal experience.   Eva Williams: (59:45) And so I try to just be very, very open, and the reason is because I don't necessarily need to specify what I will and won't work with, because I really only attract people that I really will be the right person for. But I would say, if someone is just like, "I don't know what to get and when." I would just say, "Look, the most standard thing is that you have a 12-week ultrasound, you have your 21 week morphology. That puts a lot of power in your hands. Look it up, do a little bit of research." And then usually, there'll be something as a bare minimum right before your birth, like a 36-week thing, and then we'll do a GBS swab."   Eva Williams: (01:00:21) And you don't have to do your GBS swab, you don't have to get that scan. You can just wait and go into labour naturally as well. But those are some of the options. And I don't believe that you need anything more than that, but I've been with women who are going every third day in the end of their pregnancy just to sit in a room for 20 minutes just to hear if the baby's safe and good. If that's wh

Navigating the Customer Experience
152: Loyalty Redefined! How to Enrich the Lives of Your Customers – The Unbeatable Strategy with Fred Reichheld

Navigating the Customer Experience

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2021 36:13


Fred Reichheld is the creator of the Net Promoter system of management, the founder of Bain & Company's Loyalty practice and the author of five books including The New York Times bestseller, The Ultimate Question 2.0. He is currently a Fellow and Senior Advisory Partner at Bain, where he has worked since 1977. Fred is a frequent speaker at major business forums and his work on customer loyalty has been widely covered in The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Financial Times, Fortune, Businessweek and The Economist.   His upcoming article to be published in November marks his 15th contribution to the Harvard Business Review. In 2012, he became one of the original LinkedIn influencers, an invitation only group of corporate leaders and public figures who are thought leaders in their respective fields. In 2003, Consulting Magazine named Fred as one of the world's 25 Most Influential Consultants.   According to The New York Times, he put loyalty economics on the map. The Economist refers to him as the “high priest” of loyalty. Reichheld graduated with honors both from Harvard College (B.A., 1974) and Harvard Business School (M.B.A., 1978). He's based in Cape Cod and Miami.   Questions   Could you share a little bit about your own journey? How is it that you got to where you are today? Could you explain to us what the Net Promoter system is and how companies should really be using it to yield the best results? Could you share with us maybe two or three things that you believe are contributing drivers of loyalty? What are some things that companies should look at in trying to enrich the lives of your customers? Do they need to understand what type of customer they're serving and does the generation matter? Could you share with us what is Customer Capitalism exactly? And how does that impact the consumer? Could you share with us what's the one online resource, tool, website or app that you absolutely cannot live without in your business? Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? Could you share with us what's the one thing that's going on in your life right now that you're really excited about? It could be something that you're working on to develop yourself or your people. Where can our listeners find you online? Do you have a quote or a saying that during times of adversity or challenge, you'll tend to revert to this quote, it kind of helps to keep you on track, or at least get you back on track if for any reason you get derailed. Do you have one of those?   Highlights   Fred's Journey   Fred shared that early in his career at Bain & Company, he noticed companies similar to us all, some brand new, some quite mature, but they were all outperforming all of the things he learned at the Harvard. Some were crushing it and a good example was enterprise Rent-A-Car, who started out as a tiny little rental leasing agency in St. Louis, and has grown now to become the largest car rental company on Earth without ever having to tap public equity markets, it's still a private company. And you think, Gosh, what I learned at Harvard was a capital intensive business, low growth industry, low margins, there's no way that you could grow on internally generated cash.   So, when he went to meet with Andy Taylor, their CEO, he said, “Fred, there's no secret, there's only one way to grow a successful business sustainably.” And so, he was listening for this great secret. And he said, “You treat your customers so they come back for more and bring their friends.”   And that basic idea changed his world because that's what he now understands is the key to success. If your customers are coming back for more and bringing their friends, your economic flywheel will crush the competition.   What is the Net Promoter System and How Companies Can Use it to Yield the Best Results   Me: Amazing. So I had an opportunity to get an advanced copy of your book Winning on Purpose: The Unbeatable Strategy of Loving Customer. I really, really love it. I haven't finished reading it as yet, but I've gotten quite far in it. And so, I just wanted you to share with us.   Fred, in the book, especially in the preface and the foreword, you kind of mentioned that you have this net promoter system, but people are not actually using it the way how you created it to be used. Could you explain to us what the Net Promoter system is and how companies should really be using it to yield the best results?   Fred shared that he's long been troubled by the fact that financial accounting is how we run our businesses. And while financial accounting is very good at telling us when we've extracted a million dollars from our customers wallets, it does nothing in helping us understand when we've enriched a million customers lives or when our teams have done work that's meaningful and toward an important purpose.   And Net Promoter was his attempt at helping companies measure that important idea of all the lives you touch, how many are enriched? How many diminished? And that evolved into Net Promoter Score is based on one question, how likely you'd recommend us to a friend, 0 through 10.   And it turns out that when someone gives you a 9, and especially a 10, you've enriched their life, you've lived up to the golden rule of loving your neighbor.   And 0 through 6, you failed, you diminish their life. And so, this notion of Net Promoter Score is just keeping track of all the lives touched, how many enriched, how many diminished, and how many promoters, how many detractors, it's very practical for running a business because your promoters are your assets, who come back for more and bring their friends. But also, it's a little bit inspirational because putting your teams to work, and enriching lives and measuring that outcome and helping them learn how to do better, that's really helping them live the right kind of life.   The Contributing Drivers of Loyalty   Me: So, at the end of the day, we're all trying to build better relationships with our customers. Now, in your book, you also said that loyalty means investing time and resources in relationships.   Do you know maybe could you share with us maybe based on your experience and your research, you've definitely been in the thing way longer than I have; maybe two or three drivers that you think contribute to loyalty.   And this is loyalty in general, which I'm sure impacts business relationships, because I mean, loyalty is something that as human beings, we do link it to a person. For example, if you have an animal, your dog is loyal to you as the owner, in a relationship; you're loyal to the other person that you're in the relationship with, whether it's a personal or professional relationship. So could you share with us maybe two or three things that you believe are contributing drivers of loyalty?   Fred shared that he thinks it's quite poorly understood in this day and age when people are demanding loyalty and trying to get loyalty through gimmicks and marketing, so called loyalty programs. So, he thinks it does make sense to get back to basics.   He thinks loyalty is an investment from you and another person in a relationship. And you think, “Why would I invest in someone else?” Well, it's because they stand for what you believe in you.   You believe that they'll reciprocate and treat you reasonably and not abuse your trust and that you're in a position to actually do something to make their life better. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time.   A lot of people think about loyalty as, “Oh, I want them to be loyal to me.” He thinks the way to start is, “How can I invest in this relationship and love them, make their lives better?”   And that's what great companies' do, that's what great leaders do, they inspire their troops to find ways to enrich the lives of customers sustainably, of course, profitably. But the whole goal in a business is making your customers lives better. Because when you do that, you're investing in the right relationships, they come back for more, they bring their friends, they say great things about you, they become your public relations force, that's how great business works.   And he thinks we get drawn off center a little bit because the larger our company is, the more it's run through financial mindset. It's our accounting numbers that we seem to view as the framework of success, when in fact, no, it's this golden rule ideas, it's love thy neighbor as thyself. And when you do it, you'll see the results because when customers feel the love, they are loyal and that's at the core of loyalty, it's earning loyalty by enriching customers lives. And loyalty from employees, by putting them in a position to earn lives of meaning and purpose, by enriching the lives of customers that they touch.   Me: I like the fact that you mentioned that it's not just about loyalty in terms of you getting the person to be loyal to you, but it has to be earned and it's not something that can be bought. So I'm glad that you mentioned at the beginning that a lot of these loyalty programs and marketing initiatives that organizations have that they dub as loyalty programs are not actually programs that will make or even influence your customers to be loyal to you. So it's good that you identified for us that loyalty is something that is earned.   What Companies Should Look for to Enrich the Lives of Customers   Me: Now, in terms of showing your customers or enriching their lives regardless of the industry that you're in, whether you're a financial company, you sell insurance or you have credit cards, or you're a retail company, what are some things that companies should look at in trying to enrich the lives of your customers? Do they need to understand what type of customer they're serving and does the generation matter?   Fred shared that of course it does. And yet, he finds that the most successful businesses, whether dealing with teenagers today or octogenarians, it's understanding how to communicate effectively, how to always act in your customers best interest, to listen very carefully to how you're doing and what they need. Because at the core, a business is trying to solve the customer's problem, it's trying to turn a frown, into a smile, and the human process of understanding that, he doesn't think that's changed in thousands and thousands of years. Of course, the technologies we use, the innovative approaches, those open up wonderful new opportunities, but the basics, they haven't changed.   One of his colleagues at Bain, they joined about the same year, Scott Cook, who's the founder of Intuit, who has built TurboTax, and other very successful business, huge, huge success.   And he said, “Fred, you want a big business, solve a big problem for your customers.” And that's the right way to think about it, “I am going to be a reliable resource that is going to make a real difference in your life by turning that frown into a smile, and I'm going to measure my success that way.”   Obviously, profits are necessary but those who think of profits as the true objective, they're not going to grow a very big business very long because that's very selfish, “How much money can I extract from your wallet, get away from me, I'm not going to tell you anything about myself for what I need.” If he has someone who actually acts in a loving, caring way, they're a mutually beneficial relationship affair. But that's the kind of person he's willing to actually share his information with and give constructive feedback to because he wants them to succeed, he wants them to succeed in helping him solve problems.   What is Customer Capitalism and How it Impacts the Consumer?   Me: So, while I was reading part of your book as well, I bucked up on a term, Customer Capitalism. Could you share with us what is that exactly? And how does that impact the consumer?   Fred shared that he thinks people have a framework in their heads about capitalism that's just dead wrong, that maximize shareholder value as the underlying concept. Through the years, whether it's Milton Friedman, or Adam Smith, there's an ancient and an out of date framework that people call capitalism, that without giving it this name, it's financial capitalism, because it's based on this idea of profits and shareholder and investor is the king. He thinks that has changed over the last few decades, at least, to where now, there's so much capital in the world; you can raise millions and millions if you have a good idea.   What there's not infinite amounts of are good people with good ideas who are willing to work together in a team framework to serve others.   And the real capital in that system, our customers, all the cash flow comes out of customers' wallets.   So let's keep track of how many customers you have, how many are coming back for more, how many referrals you're getting, that was the basic, those are the keystone metrics in customer capitalism.   And more than anything, it's being clear about the purpose. If the purpose in the old school capitalism was maximizing profits and shareholder value, in customer capitalism, the purpose is to enrich the lives of your customers.   Bain did a survey of a couple 100 Senior Executives around the world, C suite executives and they found that only 10% believe that the primary purpose their business existed was to make customers lives better. They thought it was about profits or great place to work or balance duties to shareholders, stakeholders. He just thinks that is dead wrong. A good business, a sustainable business has to have a primary purpose of making their customers lives better.   Me: Amazing. One of the companies that you mentioned in your book when I was reading was Chick-fil-A and I absolutely love Chick-fil-A, both me and my daughter. But one of the things that I really love about Chick-fil-A was the fact that I remember I traveled a few years ago and my daughter wanted to get something from them on a Sunday and they're actually closed on Sundays and I thought that was awesome, from what I read that was a principle that their organization had and they've lived it up to this day and they've still been very successful even though they're closed on a day when they could be making more profit, as you mentioned.   Fred stated that the purpose of Chick-fil-A is certainly to enrich the lives that it touches. It's interesting, the founder, Truett Cathy was one of his early teachers in his business career, and they're totally different people. He's a Southern, he was a Southern Baptist, very, very conservative point of view. He (Fred) lives up in New England, Unitarian Universalist, you couldn't be more liberal in your religious thinking. And yet they had enormous overlap at the core, he picked a proverb from the Bible, that essentially, it says, “A good name is worth more than silver or gold.” Or in other words, your reputation is everything, which he thinks is so true.   And this notion of net lives enrich and Net Promoter Score, you think about when you enrich a life, you're living up to the golden rule, you're loving a neighbor, when you diminish your life, you're failing.   And so, the reason Chick-fil-A has been very interested and supportive of Net Promoter is because we're trying to achieve the same mission, this is back to Truett Cathy's words, he was inspired to turn frowns into smiles on his customers' faces and that is the purpose of the business.   So, then you mentioned Sunday, he asked him why he closed on Sundays and he said, “It's not a religious thing, Fred.” He's a very religious guy but he's not preachy, their business does not put biblical quotes at the bottom of their cups, and they're not proselytizing in the parking lot. They try to be models; they try to help their people live up to this standard of loving your neighbor. And closing on Sundays, he just knew that you could not run a restaurant and have the manager there 7 days a week, you'll kill yourself. And he said, “Given that, and I definitely want my store operator there running the place not delegating to an assistant.” He said, “We have to close a day and closing Sundays gives this signal that we care about our people, and we care about golden rule.”   As he said, “But you know, Fred, I go to other restaurants on Sunday, it's not like it's wrong to go out and eat at a restaurant on Sunday. It's just wrong for us to try and have our managers running a business 7 days a week.” And he thinks it's brilliant. And it is a signal. He thinks it reminds people that they're different. And you're right, their productivity, they have far higher sales per unit than any of the competitors. And those competitors are open 7 days a week. And it shows you when you get the purpose right; your business can crush the competition.   App, Website or Tool that Fred Absolutely Can't Live Without in His Business   When asked about online resource that he cannot live without in his business, Fred shared that it's a new one for him, he discovered a company through one of his Bain partners, it's called BILT. The reason they were intriguing to him was their goal is to help their customers, their customers tend to be consumer brands, like Weber, who makes grills and place at manufacturers and so on. They try to help them build promoters among their customers, to create more promoters.   And what they've done is just taken one of the most painful steps in every customer's journey episode, which is assembly and first use, using paper instructions, which these paper instructions are horrible, let's be serious, they're written by engineers whose English is certainly their second language and they're just totally unintuitive.   So, BILT takes the 3D CAD drawing from the manufacturer, and then turns it into great little 3D instructions on how to assemble and use your product effectively and it's free to the consumer. So you go to a Home Depot or Costco and you'll start to see BILT on the packaging, and you know that you're going to get that home and you'll be able to put this thing together quickly and you'll feel great about yourself or Home Depot will have their faucets or ceiling fans, things that are really tricky to install, or garage door openers, and you go to BILT and you put the product in it and it downloads up to date information about how to put it together in a very intuitive way where you can zoom in and pinch out and rotate upside down and voice activated to help you guide you through your journey, it's just brilliant.   Me: Nice, very good. They obviously saw a need in the market, as you said, a problem that people were having challenges with and complaining about and created a product that would be applicable to make people's lives easier.   Fred stated that try ordering a bicycle online, you get it back to your driveway and then you try to put it together using paper instructions and he thinks you'll see why BILT is so successful.   Me: Yes, I can just imagine and my coordination of doing things like that are extremely poor, so I'm sure I'd benefit from using BILT.   Books That Have Had the Greatest Impact on Fred   Me: Could you also share with us maybe one or two books that have had the biggest impact on you? I'm sure you have many because you've been around for quite some time and I'm sure you've had to read and engage with a lot of authors over the years that have definitely helped enrich your life and the lives of others. But is there maybe one or two that have definitely had a great impact on you over the years, maybe something you read a long time ago, or even something you read recently?   When asked about books that have had biggest impact, Fred shared that he read a lot of books. Actually, he listens to them now; his eyes are so strained from working at his computer and writing a book, he can't read in a relaxed way so he listens to Audible. Probably the most impactful book in the last 10 years was written by a guy who passed away, Clayton Christensen was a business school professor, who he got to know, he worked briefly at Bain and then worked at an entrepreneurial thing and ended up at Harvard.   He wrote a book called How Will You Measure Your Life? And he (Fred) thinks he's just absolutely right. And the reason that helped him is, he thinks you do need to measure a life carefully, that's what a Net Promoter Score is, of all the lives he touched, how many enriched, how many diminished?   That's how you measure a life. And he thinks Clayton put this in very human terms, and thinking about that, not just in a business sense, but all of your relationships in life, how do you think about investing in those relationships and being loving and loyal in a way that's not just correct in your mind, but you know the other party felt the love, you have to get feedback on how you enrich their life. So, How Will You Measure Your Life is a big one.   There's a recent book by Adam Grant called Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know, that he thinks is quite good. Adam is a guy that they must think along the same lines, because it was an earlier book that he wrote about it's called Give and Take. And he just makes the case that the world is full of people; there are some people who are givers, there are people who are matchers, they want a relationship to be in balance and then there are takers. And he said, one of the keys to life is avoid those takers, they're sociopaths, you can try and change them, but good luck.   And he thinks this is important and living a golden rule existence. Not all people want to be part of a community where people are treated with love and care, they'll abuse that community and he thinks if they can't be fixed, they have to be excluded. And then Think Again, Grant just says, we have these mindsets that are fixed, and he thinks of financial capitalism as a fixed mindset for 90% of the world and he needs to change the way people think about the purpose of business and how to enrich a life.    What Fred is Really Excited About Now!   Fred shared that he got the paperback galley of Winning on Purpose just a week ago and he can't take it off on his desk, but very pleased with the way it's come out. And that's going to be every day of his life for the next probably 90 days is how to get people to see the relevance of this book to their personal lives, not just their business lives because the subtitle of Winning on Purpose is “The Unbeatable Strategy of Loving Customers.” And loving customers, it doesn't sound like it's a business book, he doesn't know what it sounds, just a little flaky but it's not because this notion of loving thy neighbor as thyself is the core, it's the highest standard in human affairs. And what he's arguing and Winning on Purpose is that, that is how you win.   When you enrich lives, you have to do it sustainably, and you have to do it profitably, but that's not the magic, accountants can do the profits for you. The magic is figuring out how using your energy and ingenuity to love your customers and have them come to trust you and come back for more and bring their friends but it goes so far beyond business.   So, the great challenge he's got is getting people to recognize, he wrote this book for his granddaughters, infants who he wants them to see how you live the right life. And it sets out a way of measuring progress that he thinks is consistent with what Truett Cathy had in mind of building a reputation that you'll be proud of, and investing in relationships where you can earn people's loyalty.   It's probably a good rule of thumb anywhere to just don't spend time with a person unless you can figure out a way to make their life better. And by the way, the good news, chapter two and five of the book, demonstrate that companies that do this, they're the ones that get rich.   It's not clear from reading the Wall Street Journal, but every company, every industry, where they look at the Net Promoter Score, versus the competition, measured carefully, correctly, not just some self reported vanity metric, but real apples to apples.   It's the company with the highest Net Promoter Score who is growing faster and delivering better total shareholder value. And that's really good news.   But people are the mindset is fixed, they just don't get it. They say, “Oh, that's just some industries.” No, every time they're finding it, how did Andy Taylor grow to be the biggest car rental company on earth? How did Apple become one of the biggest companies on earth? Because they built a set of customers who are Promoters who are out there buying more stuff, and referring their friends and giving good feedback because they trust you, and making your employees feel special and loved, that's the flywheel that's going on. So, he's trying to convince the world that business works in a very different way than they probably learned in business school, or if they read the Wall Street Journal and The Economist.   Me: And you know, one of the things that kind of came in my head just now when you're speaking in terms of what we were taught in school versus what is reality, the reality is, a business isn't a static thing, it's made up of people and without people in the business, there is no business and people are human beings with feelings and emotions. And you get more out of people when they feel loved, when they feel listened to, when they feel heard, as you said, when you enrich their lives. So, if you really do live that principle, I'm sure you'll win in all aspects of your life.   Fred shared that he's worked at Bain & Company since 1977. So what is that 43 going on 44 years now. And they've been through good and bad times. For the last 10 or 20 years, it's been good times. If you look on Glassdoor, the place that rates businesses as great places to work, Bain, this year, it's the best in the world according to Glassdoor, it's always been one of the top several since Glassdoor started. And Bain hires lots of different kinds of people. But these are really ambitious, talented people. And even with that slice of ambitious people, when you look at what makes a person happy at work at Bain, they want to feel loved; they want to feel like they're a valued member of a team that wins with its customers. So it's an act of service and if you ask, remember he said the typical business person in the world, 10% of them think the reason their business exists is to enrich customer lives, at Bain, if you just ask everybody through the company, you find 60% to 70% of the people think the reason Bain exists is to make their clients more successful.   It's a servant culture where love is at the core, helping people succeed and putting smiles on faces and that's what makes it a great place to work.   And the irony is, he knows what makes, at least he thinks he knows what makes Bain a great place to work, it's that they are dedicated to helping their teams make a difference in their clients success, and be recognized and rewarded and part of a team that helps achieve that.   And it's financially successful but that's not the purpose, the purpose is making their customers lives better. And he thinks most great places to work lists, completely ignore that. They think it's refrigerators full of beer in the break room, pool tables and ping pong and cool fringe benefits, that's the fringe, the core is being on a team where you're playing a valued role at really making a difference in a customer's life.   Where Can We Find Fred Online   Website - https://www.netpromotersystem.com/ LinkedIn – Fred Reichheld   Quote or Saying that During Times of Adversity Fred Uses   When asked about a quote or saying that he tends to revert to, Fred shared that he wished he did. When he's preaching to whether it's at the dinner table or elsewhere, he goes back to this idea of how important loyalty is. You got to understand what your life stands for, what is your purpose as an individual and then the way you live that purpose is to invest in relationships with other people who share that purpose. And it's how you can invest and help those people succeed that he thinks helps you achieve your mission. So, “Choose your loyalties wisely, they guide your life and they define your legacy.”   Me: Love it, choose your loyalties wisely, they guide your life and define your legacy. Amazing. Love it, absolutely love it. And I'm sure every person on the face of this earth that wants to do good, wants to leave a good legacy behind. So the only way to do that, I believe, as you had said was to try and live by doing those actions on a daily basis, do it consistently because that's the only way when you leave this world you'll be able to leave that legacy.   Fred stated that and measure, so many people would say, “Oh, I can't measure love.” And he would say, actually you can, you can get feedback from your customers in a systematic Net Promoter framework and understand how many lives you've enriched and that is your legacy. And then you should be measuring your way toward the kind of life you want to lead.   Please connect with us on Twitter @navigatingcx and also join our Private Facebook Community – Navigating the Customer Experience and listen to our FB Lives weekly with a new guest   Grab the Freebie on Our Website – TOP 10 Online Business Resources for Small Business Owners   Links   The Ultimate Question 2.0 (Revised and Expanded Edition): How Net Promoter Companies Thrive in a Customer-Driven World by Fred Reichheld Winning on Purpose: The Unbeatable Strategy of Loving Customers by Fred Reichheld How Will You Measure Your Life by Clayton Christensen Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know by Adam Grant   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience   Do you want to pivot your online customer experience and build loyalty - get a copy of “The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience.”   The ABC's of a Fantastic Customer Experience provides 26 easy to follow steps and techniques that helps your business to achieve success and build brand loyalty. This Guide to Limitless, Happy and Loyal Customers will help you to strengthen your service delivery, enhance your knowledge and appreciation of the customer experience and provide tips and practical strategies that you can start implementing immediately! This book will develop your customer service skills and sharpen your attention to detail when serving others. Master your customer experience and develop those knock your socks off techniques that will lead to lifetime customers. Your customers will only want to work with your business and it will be your brand differentiator. It will lead to recruiters to seek you out by providing practical examples on how to deliver a winning customer service experience!

Relationship Alive!
254: From a "Fair" Relationship to Radical Generosity - the 80/80 Marriage with Kaley and Nate Klemp

Relationship Alive!

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 30, 2021 77:53


It's easy to talk about being generous in your relationship - but how do you actually put it into practice - especially when things feel unfair or out of balance? If you're stuck in fighting for fairness in your relationship, it's time to learn a new way of being together where shared success becomes the rule - not the exception. Today we're talking with Kaley and Nate Klemp, authors of "The 80/80 Marriage - A New Model for a Healthier, Stronger Relationship." You'll get practical steps to foster radical generosity in your relationship. As always, I'm looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Also, see below for links to our other episodes with Stan Tatkin. Sponsors: GreenChef.com is a USDA certified organic company, with a wide variety of meal plans to make having healthier food easy and convenient for you. And they're offering you $125 off plus free shipping- just to give them a try! Just visit GreenChef.com/alive125 and use the coupon code “alive125” at checkout for $125 off, and enjoy the delicious recipes and fresh ingredients that GreenChef sends your way. Want something new to entertain you? Acorn TV is a commercial-free streaming service that's rooted in British television. It's home to sophisticated and artful storytelling with top-rated mysteries, dramas that pull you in, heart-felt comedies and so much more. So - Escape to Britain and beyond without leaving your seat. Try Acorn TV free for 30 days, by going to acorn.tv and using the promo code “alive” (lowercase) at checkout. Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you're stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who's right for you. Resources: Check out "The 80/80 Marriage" on Amazon Take a quiz, get more information about Nate and Kaley Klemp and their book, the 80/80 Marriage - by clicking here. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Or...check out the Secrets of Relationship Communication complete course! Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/8080 to download the transcript to this episode with Nate and Kaley Klemp. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript of this episode: Neil Sattin: Let's just start maybe with you're revealing a little bit of your personal journey, if you don't mind, getting a little vulnerable with, how did 8080 come to be for the two of you? Nate Klemp: Yeah, well, I guess it starts in high school actually, so Kaley and I grew up in the same town, and we met our senior year of high school, we were in chemistry class together, and we actually dated a little bit in high school, and then we both went to the same college, but broke up pragmatically and got back together seven years later, and it was almost like a fairy tale, Instagram-worthy story where we got back together in our early 20s, we got married, and we went into marriage thinking that the momentum of that perfect story, that fairy tale was just going to effortlessly continue and it didn't... Not at all. In fact, a couple of years in the marriage, I had a serious bike accident, which left me in a position of both having very little energy to work and complete Life's tasks, but also in a pretty serious depression, experiencing a lot of anxiety, and all of a sudden we were thrust into this conversation really more of a conflict over What is or isn't fair, and we started to see that for us and for most couples, we saw eventually that the fundamental thing we were grappling with is how can we be equals and in love, and that seemed to be a totally vexing question that we just could not answer in our marriage. So we really spent the then 15 years, we've been married for almost 16 years now, trying to answer that question, both for ourselves and then with this book for other couples. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and when you talk about how to be equals and be in love, that makes me think of what you mentioned in the initial part of your book where you talk about moving from what you call the 80/20 model of relationship into 50/50 relating, and then of course. You're making a case for the 80/80 model of relating. So yeah, can you describe what we're talking about, just kind of in simple terms, what's a 80/20 relationship... What's a 50/50 relationship? And where are we headed with 80/80? Kaley Klemp: 80/20 is looking back at sometimes our parents, sometimes our grandparents, where one person's "job" is to take care of the relationship and the other person gets to kind of coast, and in 80/20, based on gender norms at the time, typically it's the woman who's responsible for making sure that we're close and that we have date night, and that we have friends, and really, it's her job to make sure that the relationship is working at all, and as easy as it is to look at that with condemnation or disdain, there was an advantage at that point in time, which was, they were at least on the same team, pointed in the same direction, because they were really, really interdependent. Kaley Klemp: What happened though is as the '60s and '70s occur and women were given a lot more opportunity to work outside the home and pursue their own interests, there started to be a big shift where each person could look at 80/20 and say, "Gosh, that seems wildly unfair." And it was... And so they said, "You know what, we can do better. Let's make things even between us, let's make things equal, and the clunky technology was, Let's make things fair." And so that's where 50/50 came from, this idea that if we each do perfectly equal amounts of things, then somehow we'll end up in marital bliss, unfortunately, and we can talk about all the reasons why. 50/50 ended up being a recipe for even more fighting and even more conflict because finding that perfect midpoint where it was exactly fair seemed completely elusive. And so what we're striving for and arguing for is this notion of 80/80, where rather than keeping score and keeping track like you do in 50/50, instead you intentionally strive to overshoot the mean to do more than your "fair share" from this mindset of generosity. And with that new mindset, with this intentionality around how can I show up with generosity with my partner, what are the structures that support it, how can we take that mindset and make it really practical so that in real life, we can actually live it... Interested in reading the transcript for the rest of this episode with Nate and Kaley Klemp?  Visit neilsattin.com/8080 to download the full transcript of this episode!

The Marketing Secrets Show
What's Your Return On Relationship...? (1 of 3)

The Marketing Secrets Show

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 29, 2021 29:42


On this special 3 part series, you get to hear Russell's presentation at the ROR (Return on Relationships) Symposium! Russell discusses the importance of what he calls the “Dream 100”, and how it helps create relationships that support both his business and his personal life. Check out RORUniversity.com to learn more! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Hey. What's going on, everybody? This is Russell Brunson. Want to welcome you back to The Marking Secrets podcast. I got something special for you guys over the next three episodes. I'm actually on vacation right now, Thanksgiving vacation. My wife and my kids and I are all in Kauai, Hawaii. You might hear them giggling in the background depending on how well this microphone picks up noise. And so, I didn't have a chance to record a podcast for the next couple episodes, but before I left on vacation, I actually had a chance to be part of a really cool summit that my friend, Christopher Voss put on called The ROR Symposium. And he had me as one of his keynote speakers, and he had me talk about just my history, my journey, using relationships, and joint ventures, and things like that. The Dream 100, as I call it, to build my business and everything we've done over the last almost 20 years now. And so, it was a really special presentation. It was one that I came to with notes, but not PowerPoint slides and things like that. It was more, I just wanted to kind of share from my heart. And if you know Christopher Voss you know he's a very emotional person and he brings that emotion. And apparently, I found out afterwards, all the speakers end up crying. In fact, I did as well during my presentation. So, there's something really special in the middle that you'll find out about. But anyway, I hope you really enjoy these. They're going to help you to learn how to build joint ventures, how to find your Dream 100, how to build better relationships with people, and how to turn that into more business and help you to get your mission out there to change more people's lives. If you don't know who Christopher Voss is, I recommend following him. He told me that the best site to send you guys to... I said, "Where should I send people to listen who want to go deeper with you and learn more about relationships and how to build businesses using them?" And he said theroruniversity.com would be the best place for you guys to go. So, if you want to go deeper with Chris, go to roruniversity.com, check out what he's got there. And with that said, I'm going to cue the theme song. When we come back, you have a chance to hear the first part of my keynote presentation. As I was kind of thinking through this, I was like, "Man, there's 30-something speakers coming. Everyone's talking about different ways to do this ROR, return on relationship game. And everyone's got different ideas and things, and it got me to back, man, almost 19, 20 years ago now. And so I... If you guys are cool with it, I just want to do some story time and tell you guys my story and some of the things along the journey that I tried, that I... failures, the successes, specifically inside of this relationship, and joint venture partners, and things like that. And hopefully, it'll give you guys some comfort. Because everyone starting different points and sometimes you look at someone like me like, "Oh, well, Russell knows Tony Robbins, and Dan Kennedy," and da, da, da. But there was a day, 18, 19, 20 years ago where I was a little kid scared out of my mind awkwardly trying to message people pre-Facebook. So, I'm sending emails and trying to... and it was scary, and hard, and so hopefully, it'll give you some faith in wherever you are in your journey. Just like, "Okay, this is right. It's going to be good." It's going to be for some of us, especially the introverts like me, this is going to be something that kind of stretches you and feels uncomfortable sometimes, but then it can become something you really love and enjoy and gives you the ability to change the world at a level you never thought was possible. So, that's kind of my game plan. Then after that, we can open for some Q&A and... or whatever we want to do. Or we can celebrate, have a party, or we can sing Christopher's song and let him have a nap. Hey, whatever we want to do, it'll be fun. So, looking back, it's funny, because when I got started in this business, I was still in college. So, I had just met my beautiful wife, Colette, who I think we're celebrating our... I think it's our 20th anniversary this summer, which is crazy. So, she's stuck around my chaos for this long and she's... Gosh, she's the best. But we had just gotten married and I was trying to figure out how to support her. I was wrestling and I didn't want to quit wrestling, so I'm like, "How do I wrestle and do all these things at once?" And so, I did what most people do and I went to Google and typed in how to make money. Right? Which, who here has done that at one point in your career? And you go on this rabbit trail, right? Of like, "Whoa, there's a lot of things to do." And everyone's got a different thing, and you start joining email newsletters. You know what those are at first and you start getting these emails from all these people, and then for me, it was like I was reading blogs and then I was joining... They didn't have Facebook groups back then. They had forums. So, I was joining the Warrior forum and How-To Court forum, and then... Anyway, there's like 20 or 30 different forums. So, all day long I'm reading forums of people, and I'm getting emails, and I'm learning all these things. And it was interesting because I was learning all the different pieces, right? Some people would talk about SEO and that's what they geeked out on. So, I started reading all the SEO articles, and I started learning how to do SEO and backlinking. So, I was like, "Oh, this is how you make money." And then someone else was like, "SEO's stupid. This is how we make money," and they had a whole different strategy. And then someone else had a different strategy, and soon I was just looking at all these shiny objects and I was like, "I don't know which one I'm supposed to do." How many of you guys ever felt that before? There's like 8,000 things. Like, "Russell said funnel. Someone else said this." Like, "Ah." And so, I was in that as well, and so I was just like... I got in this perpetual learning phase, right? Where I was learning and studying, and learning and studying. Then I started watching what was happening. Right? And I was on all these different email lists, but then it seemed like it was coordinated. Once every couple months, all of a sudden I would get an email from 30 or 40 people who somehow I had got on their email lists and all of them would be talking about the same product at the exact same time. Right? And all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, my gosh. Everyone's talking about this thing." Right? And I think the first ones I saw there was an old e-book called Google Cash. And it's how people are making money on Google doing Google ads. It was Chris Carpenter's offer, and he had gotten a whole bunch of affiliates. I don't know how at the time, but he had a whole bunch of affiliates all promote at the same time, so my inbox... And I'm at college opening my inbox and there's like 40 emails from people all talking about this book. I'm like, "This is the thing everyone's talking about. It's got to be the secret." I was so excited. And I went and paid this $67 for an e-book, which no one knew what e-books were back then and we were all confused. Literally, I remember messaging the support team and I was... like two weeks later. I'm like, "When's the book going to show up?" And they're like, "It's digital." I'm like, "I don't know what that means." They're like, "It means you download it." And again, 20 years ago, that was like... that was weird. That wasn't a thing that nowadays we all get it. But back then... And so I download this book, and I'm trying to read it, and I was just like, "I paid $67 for a PDF. My wife's going to kill me when she finds out." But I'm reading it and I'm getting all excited like t's next big thing, and all of a sudden, there's this next promotion and everybody's talking about this next thing. I'm getting all these... like 20, 30 emails. And I was like, "It's got to be this," so I jumped over there, and it's started me on this rabbit trail. And I just remember being confused, and overwhelmed, and all the things a lot of us go through. Right? And about that time... This was probably the very first ever high-ticket... Not even high-ticket, like $1,00 product. There was this guy, and I didn't know who he was at the time, but again, all of a sudden the emails start flying in my inbox. Right? And they're all for this guy. They say this guy is the godfather of internet marketing and he's retiring. And because of that, he's giving away his entire empire, everything he's built. And he called it the farewell package. Like, "This is my farewell from the internet. I'm done. I'm out. I've made millions of dollars, now I'm leaving." And his name was Mark Joyner. And I didn't know who Mark was at the time, but I started reading the emails and the stuff, and I was just like, "This is the greatest thing in the world." Right? So, I remember going to the sales page, reading through it ready to try to buy it for 20, or 30 bucks, or whatever, and the price went was $1,000. And I was like, "Oh, I do not have $1,000. I've never had $1,000." My wife was working, supporting at the time, and she was making, I believe $9.50 an hour. So, I mean, it would take her, man, over 100 hours. No, because you got taxes. Probably 200 hours of her working, so that's a lot of time to pay for this $1,000 course. I remember looking at it and I was like, "Oh, I don't have any money. I'm a broke wrestler." I had just gotten married, therefore, now I'm living off my wife who's making $9.50 an hour as a receptionist where she was working at. And I was like, "There's no way I can do it." And so, I remember not being able to buy it, not being able to buy it, but I kept seeing the emails, and the promotions, and the urgency, and the scarcity, and it eventually got to the point where it was about to sell out. Probably five or six weeks into this whole thing and about to sell out. And they were closing down the cart. And I remember the night before... This is... Again, for those of you who are newer before there were webinars, there were things called teleseminars where you would pick up the phone, and you would call, and you'd just listen to people talk. And so, I called this teleseminar, and on the teleseminar these guys are talking about the Mark Joyner Farewell Package. And it was just... It was going to be gone the next day and you had to get it. And I remember listening to it and being sick to my stomach and laying in bed that night, and I was like, "I have to do it. This is my thing," and being so stressed out. And finally, the next morning I was still laying in bed. My wife woke up and I was like, "Colette, I know I bought a lot of stupid things that I haven't done anything with any of it yet, but I think this is the one. I think this is the thing." I remember asking her. I was like, "Can I buy it?" And she said something like... In fact, I talked about it. I wrote it in the Traffic Secrets book, this story, but she's like, "Well, do you think this is the one for you?" I was like, "I think this is the one." She's like, "Okay, then here's our credit card." And we only had like a $500 credit limit I had to call up my bank like, "Can you double our limit to 1,000?" This is how like green we were back then. And we did it, and I bought the course, and I remember I got the course and there was like 15 CDs, all these interviews. And so, I started listening to the CDs, and what was crazy, as Mark was talking, he kept talking over and over and over again, about two concepts. The first one was the power of your own list. He kept talking about, "You have to have your own email list, and this is how it works, and if you have an email list of 10,000 people, you send an email out to your offer, you can sell a whole bunch of your things." And I started realize, I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. This is literally what's been happening to me. I'm on all these people's email lists. They have a big email list and send an email, and if I buy a $1,000 course, they must have made 500 bucks." And I started putting the pieces together. It's like, "Oh, my gosh. This is how it works." And some of you guys... I'm not going to tell the whole story, but some of you guys have heard my story. After listening to two or three of these CDs I was like, "I need an email list." And I went down that whole journey where I got called a spammer and... Anyway, so that's... Insert that story there. I'm not going to tell that story because it's outside the context of this event. But I started trying to send email and it didn't work. And I was just like, "This thing Mark is teaching me, I need to have an email list, but everyone's got one, except for me. I don't have a list. It's not fair." And I kept listening to Mark's course, and as he got deeper and deeper in the course, he started talking about this thing called joint ventures. And he was like, "Every time you start a new company or launch a new product, the first thing we do before you buy ads or anything is we go and we have these different partners who all already have email lists." He's like, "Go with people who already have email lists, and then some of them will promote and send traffic to my thing, and that's how you make money." And I was like... I was just seeing... You know there's those curtain in front of your face, and the curtain's lifted? I saw the Wizard of Oz. I'm like, "This is how it works. You have to have an email list. If you don't have an email list, you find other people with email lists, and they promote your offer, and then the people buy your product, and then you have an email list." And I was like... It all started making sense in my head. I was like, "Okay." And then I did what I'm sure all of you guys did, especially if you've read Traffic Secrets book... And I didn't know what this was called at the time. I didn't have words for it, but it was basically my first Dream 100. I was like, "Okay. Who's got an email list?" Like, "Mark said people have email lists. We need to find people with email lists," and so that was kind of the next question. And so, I started making my first Dream 100 list. And it was funny because I had this farewell package I bought from Mark Joyner and he had all the people he interviewed. So I said, "Well, this is my Dream 100, all the people Mark interviewed." And so, I don't remember most of the names. I do remember Joe Vitale though. He was one of the names. And some of you guys know Joe Vitale. If you go to mrfire.com, he's written like 400 books. He's awesome. I wrote Joe Vitale down. I started writing other people's names down. And so, I remember I'm building this Dream 100 list and I was like, "Okay, this is easy. I'm just going to email them all, and then they're going to promote my thing, and I'm going to be rich. This seems really awesome." Right? And I'm sure some of you guys have thought of that before. Hopefully, it's not just me. So, I start emailing Joe Vitale, and I can't remember all the other names. Joe's the one that stuck out in my head. I remember emailing them all and then just waiting like, "Okay, they're going to respond back to me, and then this is going to be this big thing, and I'm going to make a bunch of money." And I think I had my first or second product at the time, so it was like I had a product for them to sell and everything. Sent all the emails out and it was crickets. Not one person wrote back to me. And I was like, "Huh." I was like, "Okay, either this Mark Joyner's full of crap or I need to send another email." So, being a relentless person, I send another email to all them like, "Hey, Joe Vitale. Did you not get my email? Because I've got this new product and if you promote it, we can split the money 50/50. It's going to be awesome." Right? Like he's for sure... Like, "I'll even give you 60% commission." Maybe I'll blow his mind. Right? So, I tell him this thing, crickets. Nobody responds back to me. And I remember just being like... I was like, "This internet thing doesn't work." So, I remember being frustrated and just not knowing what to do, not believing this JV thing actually worked. Assuming that it's impossible to build an email list and I was stuck in that rut for a while. Probably, I don't know how many, four or five months of this rut of just like, "It didn't work. I tried." And have you guys done that where you try something somebody told you and then you're like, "Oh"? It reminds me of... Well, never mind. I'm not going to tell that story, but it reminds me of just so many of us do that where we're trying to follow a guru. We try the thing and it doesn't work, and we're like, "Oh, it didn't work." It's like, maybe we just didn't execute it quite correctly. So, fast forward a little while later there was this internet marketing event. It was Armand Morin. It was called the Big Seminar back then. And it was the seminar in the industry. Kind of like Funnel Hacking Live is nowadays. It was the seminar. And so, I remember saving up some money and we flew out to... And I had made a little bit of money online at this point. Not a lot. I was making, I don't know, maybe 1,000 bucks a month or something. So, I had a little bit of money just so I didn't have to yell... borrow more money from Colette's credit card to go and go to this event. So, I fly out to this event. It's in Atlanta. I go to the seminar and I remember thinking, "All the speakers on stage, I'm going to get all... That's going to be my next affiliates or my next people I'm going to be partners with." And so, we're seeing all the speakers and they seem bigger than life. They're on stage, and they're talking, and I was just like, "If any of these guys promoted my product, I'd be rich." That's the thing going through my head. Right? And so, I'm seeing them, writing all their names down. I'm like, "I'm going to become partners with them and become friends with them. I'm going to go meet them face-to-face. Maybe that's the secret. If I meet them face-to-face then it'll be easy." Unfortunately, I'm insanely introverted, and shy, and scared. So, I'm at the event, I see the person walking by. I remember seeing Stephen Pierce. He was the guy at the time. He walked past and I was just like... He walked right past me, and he walked past, and I'm like, "Ah, I blew it. Stupid, Russell. Stupid, Russell. You didn't even talk to him." And I'm sitting there in the hallway and all of a sudden Armand... Actually, I was in the bathroom and Armand walked next to me in the urinal next to me. I'm like, "Armand's right here. What do I do? Do I say something? I can't say in the bathroom. It's so awkward." And he looks over and he is like, "Hey, man. How's it going?" I'm like, "Good." And he is like, "All right," and then walks away and walks out of the bathroom. I'm like, "Ah, I blew it again. I blew it again." You know? And I'm too scared to talk to any of the speakers, but I'm like... For me, I'm like, "This is the key. This is the key to my freedom is these speakers," and I didn't dare do it. I wimped out every single person. I didn't talk to a single one of them. And then at nights, all the attendees would go to the bar. Now, I'm not a drinker. I've never drank in my life. Most people don't believe me, but I've literally never drank in my entire life. So, I'd go to these bars and I was like, "I don't want people to think I'm drinking," because like I have a thing like that where I want to avoid the appearance of evil at all costs. Right? So, I remember I'd go to the bar and I was like, "Ah, how do I..." And literally, the bartender was like, "You want something to drink?" I was like, "Can you give me milk?" He was like, "Seriously?" I'm like, "I don't know. Can you?" I was like "Because if it's going to be a Sprite, people going to think it's some fizzy drink." I don't know. I don't even know what drinks are. Like, "It's going to be fizzy something." So, I'm like, "If you give me milk they're going to know that it's not alcohol." Right? So, he's like, "All right." So, the guy gives me a milk. I'm holding this milk at the bar walking around and everyone's like... All these people start coming to me, which is really cool, and they're like, "Are you drinking milk?" I was like, "Yeah." They're like, "Why are drinking milk?" I'm like, "Oh, well, I'm Mormon, so I don't drink." They all kind of laugh at me, but it opened dialogue when they came to me. And this is... Okay, side note. Interesting for the introvert. Who are the introverts in the room? If you're introvert, I learned something really cool. Nicholas Bailey actually told me this. He dresses weird because he's introverted and he's too scared to go talk to people. He's like, "If I do something weird," he's like, "people come to me and like, 'Oh, nice shirt. Nice glasses. Nice,'" blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, that's what happens. I had this weird thing, and then people came to me. They're like, "Why are you drinking milk in a bar?" And then it started a conversation, and then when I'm in a conversation I can do it. It's the walking up to. Like, "How am I going to go and..." You know what I mean? So scary for me. And so, people started talking to me. We started becoming friends and get to know people, and I'm talking in this group, and it was interesting because everyone I was talking to, they all had businesses just like me, but they weren't the guy on stage with a list of 100,000 people and all this kind of stuff They were here and they had a list of like 500 people. Or I got a list of 1,200 people. They were all kind of at this level. About the same level I was at. I was like, "Oh, my gosh," and we started talking, getting to know each other. And back then it was before Skype or before... It was pre-Skype. It was pre... What do we use nowadays? Slack or Instant Messenger. Whatever. We used to use Yahoo Messenger, or IRQ, or AOL, and so it always like, "What messenger are you on? Here's my AOL chat," or, "Here's my IRQ." Or ICQ Sorry. ICQ. Or, "Here's my..." And so, they give them to you, and so that was how we get to know people. So, I put it out, write it down, and then I remember the people. I remember Mike Phillip's name was on Yahoo Messenger. His name was signanddrive.com. And I remember Brad Callen. I remember Brad Fallon. And so, I started meeting all these people at the bar while I'm drinking my milk, and getting to know them, and I'm writing down all their little handles. And then we get home and away from the event, and so I start putting those things in and I start messaging them. I feel way more comfortable talking through text, through Yahoo Messenger. I was like, "Hey, great meeting you at the event," blah, blah, blah. "This is a picture of me so you remember who I was." Right? And the person would write back, "Oh, yeah. It was really cool. You were the guy with the milk, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." And we'd start this dialogue. And then I was like, "Okay..." Not even thinking that these guys would be big partners someday, but I kind of started getting to know these people. And we were all kind of the same level. And this is the key. Okay? I'm trying to tell stories with hopefully principles you guys can pick from it. So, all these people were at the same level. And I remember because at the same time I was messaging Joe, Vitale, and messaging all the speakers in the event, and none of them are responding to me. It's just like crickets. No one's responding back. I'm talking to these guys. And I remember I was creating an offer and these guys had become my friends. And I was like, "Hey, can you check this out? Do you think this is good? Is the offer good?" And they started messaging back, and all of a sudden they started becoming involved in my business, right? They had a vested interest because they were kind of like, "Oh, I would do this," or, "I'd try this over here. And all of a sudden they started sharing ideas back and forth and it was really cool. And then they would share with me what they were doing back and forth, and it was really, really cool. And I had vested interest in their projects because I was like, "Oh, you should try this, or, "Oh, I did this. You should try this." We built this little group of people. And I don't even know. It was probably four, five, six people maybe that we kind of did this thing. And I remember because about this time is when my very first software product ever came out, and I don't talk much about this product. It was a product called ZIP Brander, and I was so proud of it. And I remember I sent it to Mike Filsaime. I was like, "Hey, here's my first software. Check it out." He was like, "Dude, that's so cool. Do you want me to promote it to my list?" And I was like, "Wait, he just asked me." Like never it happened. I was just like, "I've been asking all these people at this level up here, all the people I'm looking up to, the gurus, the big famous people. No one, crickets, and all of a sudden my friend's, like, 'I'll promote it to my list.'" And I was like, "Dude, you serious?" He's like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Okay." And so I give him the link. He sends an email to his list, and I can't remember. I paid him like 50, 60, 70. I don't know. I was like, "You can have all the money. I just want... I need a list. I know the goal. The goal to get a list. I'll give you 100% commission." Right? And so, he promoted and I think he sold... I don't know, he sold five or six copies of my thing, but then I got the money, and then I gave most of it to him. But then what happened is I got five or six customers, but a bunch of people... I had a pop-up on the site. A bunch of people filled out the pop-up, and I got like 300 or 400 people on my email list. And I was like, "This is awesome." And then I knew Mike had a product, and I was like, "Hey, man." I was like, "Dude, I love..." He had a product called Carbon Copy Marketing back then or something. It was a two-disc DVD set. And this is before DVD, so he literally would go and he would print a DVD and ship it out to you from his house. This is how... 20 years ago. Remember, this is before things like that. And so, he said, "Yeah." So, I emailed my list of like 300 people from him the 400 or 500 people I built, so maybe a thousand from my list. I sent the email and I sold like five or six of his DVDs. And he is like, "Thanks, man." And we did our first little cross-promotion, and me and Mike became friends. And then Mike told me. Then Mike's like, "Dude, you know who you should do? I met this guy named Gary Ambrose. You should meet Gary because Gary has got a list too, and he promoted the same DVDs you just promoted and it was awesome. You should get to know him." So, he introduced me to Gary. Me and Gary met up, and I was like, "Oh." And Gary and I started sharing ideas, and then eventually he promoted my things, I promoted his, and then Gary's like, "Oh, dude, you should meet so and so." And I was like, "Oh, you should meet..." And all of a sudden we started this little four or five people start introducing more and more people, and soon I've got 20 or 30 friends all on Yahoo Messenger and AOL that we're talking back and forth and getting to know each other. Right? And what's interesting is that we all kind of helped promoting each other. Our list went from 400 or 500 people to 1,000 to 1,500, to 1,000 to 2,500, and they kept growing and growing. And I was looking at this little group of people all working together. It was like a groundswell where our businesses all started gradually rising together. What do they say? A rising tide raises all ships, right? That's what started happening. And we started getting bigger and bigger. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. This is so cool." And then we started doing more things and this is, man, a two or three-year period of time while I was in college, we were going back and doing these things. And it was just... It was really, really cool. Right? And I remember one day Mike had this idea, Mike Filsaime had this idea for a product called Butterfly Marketing. Some of you guys may have heard of it, but it was the first time he had the idea. And he's like, "Hey, man, check out the sales letter." He had this huge sales letter. And on the sales letter, he had these testimonials from all the people. All the people you'd want, right? I was like, "How'd you get all those guys' testimonials?" He's like, "Oh, I didn't. I just put their pictures in just as the placeholders as a dream of someday I'm wanting to get these people's testimonials." I was like, "Oh, that'd be so cool to get to know them." And then he's like, "Well, I met so and so. I know so and so who does know that person," and all of a sudden this network started happening, right? Anyway, Mike went and started messaging and eventually got to the person, one of the people, and they gave him a thing, and all of a sudden he got a bigger promotion from a bigger person. And what happened is, is we started doing this. Again, the people I looked up to were way up here and they wouldn't respond to me and things like that. And this group down here became friends. We all started growing together, and eventually what started happening is as we got bigger and bigger and bigger, we got closer to these people. I remember probably, man, two years, maybe three years into this business I had an idea. And I was creating this whole project. It was a membership site. It was called The Lost Files, and it was based on old public domain books, which I could talk about for six years. But it's this geeky, nerdy thing that you can make money with. And so I got excited, I'm creating this thing, and I was like, "Joe Vitale, he's written like 500 books." I'm like, "Oh, Joe would be my dream person." I know Joe had talked about public domain in the past. Joe had actually published a couple books from the public domain. And I was like, "He'd be my dream partner." But I was like, "He's ignored like 40 emails from me. There's no way he's going to respond to me now." Right? But I was like, "Oh, I got to do something." So, I remember I messaged him again this time and I was like, "Hey, Joe. Sorry to bug you. I have this new site." I explained what my site, thelostfiles.com. Like, "This is what is, how it works," and everything. And then the next day I get email back from Joe, and I was too scared to even open it. I'm like, "This is crazy." And Joe messaged me back. He's like, "Hey, Russell, so good to meet you." He's like, "I've been seeing your name everywhere. All these different people keep promoting your stuff. They keep popping up in my inbox. The Lost Files sounds awesome." The way he made the connection, he didn't... I don't think he... He didn't connect that it was me who was annoying him for like 40 emails prior. He just didn't connect it. Or maybe he just ignored it, or he forgave me, or whatever, but he message back and said, "Yes." And I was like, "Joe Vitale said yes." And I was freaking out. And so he goes and he does this... We had this promotion where we had a teleseminar together. He promoted his list. And then at the teleseminar he promoted The Lost Files, and we signed up like 300 members off his list at like 40 bucks a month, which for a college kid, is insane. And it was this one deal, and then Joe was like, "Oh, by the way, have you ever met so and so, and so and so?" and starts opening these doors again. Now, because I've gotten closer and closer, I got one person in and all of sudden it opened up this whole network of people. And that was my journey for the first three or four years. And so I wanted to kind of lead with that because again, I think so many of you guys are like me where you see the people. I meet people all the time. "Russell, you say to build a Dream 100 list, I've got to dream one, and it's just you." And I'm like, "Not a good strategy." I literally said Dream 100 for a very important reason because it shouldn't be me. I do maybe one promotion a year and usually, it's for Tony Robbins. And so, for me to say yes, it's going to be like... We got to date for a decade before it's going to happen, so if you're banking on that it's going to be a long, long time for something to happen, right? I was like, "Instead, go and do things with people at your own tier, your own level where they're looking for things, and looking for cross-promotions, and things will start happening. And then what happened is you start rising to the top, and all of a sudden people like me are going to start seeing you. You show up my news feed. I start seeing emails." All of a sudden it's like now there's this relationship, right? It's funny. There's... This is a funny story. So, one of my buddies, I met him probably... It's probably been 12 years ago now. Some of you guys know him. He's Chad Wallner. He's a chiropractor. I talk about him in the Dot Com Secrets book. But he moved into our area, and so we go to church. We were going to the same church, and so he shows up and he sees me. And he was seeing me online. He knew I was and stuff. He came to me and he's like, "Russell." He's like, "Dude, this is so... I can't believe you're in my ward. I've seen you before," blah, blah, blah, all this stuff. And he's like, "We actually have a mutual friend together." And I was like, "We do?" He's like, "Yeah." So, he's trying to build a connection so we can connect and stuff. And it was interesting because he said, "We got this mutual friend." And then he told me the name. He's like, "Here's the guy's name." And I was like, "Don't know who he is." He was like, "Oh, weird." He's like, "He talks about you all the time as if you guys were best friends." I was like, "I don't know who that is. I'm so sorry." And years later, Chad and I had this discussion about this and it was funny because he was like, "Man, I..." The realization is it's not who you know, it's who knows you. Right? I knew who Joe Vitale was. I knew who these people... I knew Tony Robbins. So, I wanted them, but it's not that I know them. I need them to know me. Right? So, it's how do you get them to know you? Well, it's by doing cool stuff in the market that they're playing in. Showing up. Will they see you in news feeds, see you in emails, see you in stuff? Where all of a sudden they keep seeing these things and then they see you. They got to know who you are. Right? When you approach them like, "Hey, my name is so and so," if they don't know who you are, it's going to be really hard to build a relationship. If they're like, "Hey, this is so and so," it's easy. For example, I was trying to do a negotiation with someone the other day. I wish I could tell you all the details. I can't though. Anyway, really big company. You'd be aware of who they are. And so, I tried to get a meeting with the founder of it, and we get on a Zoom call like this, and the very first thing he says, he's like, "Man, Russell," he's like, "I see you like 12 times a day. You are everywhere in my news feed. I get emails from you. You must be the best internet marketer on the planet." And I was like, "This is going to be the easiest negotiation in my entire life because he knows exactly who I am." Right? As opposed to me coming to him and trying to explain who I was. Right? And so it's like, as you're doing stuff actively in the marketplace, people will start seeing that and become aware of you. Right? And that's how you start rising to the top. I get people all the time that message me like, "Hey, can I speak at Funnel Hacking Live?" I'm like, "I don't know who you are." Like, "I'm the best speaker. Here's my speaker," blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "I don't know who you are." Right? But check this out. McCall Jones, who I think is on here, or she was on here earlier, right? McCall, she showed up on Funnel Hacking Live. Then she does this thing, and then she starts publishing, and she starts doing everything, and I start seeing her everywhere. I see her energy and her excitement. I see how she's developing things. She's like using things she learned from me, but developing her own things, which was really cool. Because I'm like, "Oh, my gosh. She's a good student and she's doing things." And this whole thing starts happening, and I see her in my feed. I see her all the time. And my friends start talking about her, and then Monica, who's on this as well. Monica messaged me. There's McCall right there. Yeah. What's up? And Monica messaged me, "You know McCall? You got to..." And so, her friends are calling me and telling me to listen and stuff. And soon, I'm watching everything she's doing. And I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm impressed." I start podcasts. How many... Once or twice I talked about you on the podcast before we even met officially. I'm like, "This girl McCall keeps showing up. She's doing these cool things." And on Funnel Hacking Live, I'm like, "Who should speak on Funnel Hacking Live?" I'm like, "There's this girl who's never spoken on stage before. Right? She's never... Doesn't like, 'Here's my speaker reel. I've got a perfect presentation.'" But I'm seeing that. I was like, "She'd be like the perfect person to come on stage and, and speak." And so anyway... Hey, McCall. What's up? McCall Jones: Thank you. Wow, that's so nice. I'm just hyping you up, over here reacting to all of your stuff, so hey. Funnel Hacking Live. Woo hoo! Russell: All right. But conceptually, you guys, it make sense. If you want to get into, they call it the good old boys club. Like, "How do I get in the good old boys club?" It's the way you get into it is you have to infiltrate it. And it starts finding people at your own level and start playing the game, start moving forward, start making noise, start doing stuff, and then people are going to start seeing you and start becoming aware of you.

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show
You Can Overcome Anything: Ep 186 - Say YES to life ALWAYS – Carla Simpson

You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 26, 2021 39:48


In today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, CesarRespino.com brings to you a special guest by the name of Carla Simpson.Carla is an inspirational, motivational speaker and author on all things Happiness. Carla has been spreading her message around the world that 'Happiness is a Conscious Choice', and we can all 'Say Yes to Life'. She helps to empower people to live with purpose, smile every day and amplifytheir happiness, joy, and abundance with everyone they encounter. Carla wants to help you claim your Happiness with total confidence and ease and has created a toolkit a step-by-step guide to help people make a difference in their lives so that they too can say yes to life no matter what difficulty they are facing. Life is a journey but let's try and smile, laugh a little more on the wayCarla's Simpson message to you is: Your happiness is your number 1 job in life, what can you do today to bring more joy into your dayTo Connect with Carla Simpson go to:https://www.carlamaree.com.au/https://www.facebook.com/carlamaree.com.auhttps://www.instagram.com/carlamareesimpson/?hl=enhttps://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/get-happy-hour/id1435342941To Connect with CesarRespino go to:

A Farmish Kind of Life
172: This is Not About “Them”

A Farmish Kind of Life

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 23, 2021 27:44


There is a difference between relying on each other and relying on Them. I believe healing and progress will take place in our country when there is more of the first and far less of the second, but in order to have less of the second, we have some uncomfortable questions to answer. I think this is important to talk about because as the world is going through these challenging times and shifting into whatever is coming next, I hear so many people say, “Screw it. I'm just gonna lock my door and be a hermit.” or “I'm gonna move to the woods and be all by myself because I don't need anyone else.” And so they shut themselves off from the benefits of community, sometimes because of a misguided belief that we're not supposed to have to depend on anyone. But here's the thing. There's a difference between learning to rely on each other and learning to rely on Them. Relying on people with a face and a name you know—someone you could invite over for coffee—in a relationship that's an agreed upon, two way street is completely different than relying on Them, the government or giant corporations/systems. Each other vs. Them Surviving and thriving because you depended on each other was normal way back in the day, and is even pretty common in some communities still. (I'm looking at you, Yoder.) Community and depending on each other used to be the name of the game. If it was 1800 whatever and you were on the prairie, would you give a rat's ass or probably even know what the government was up to on a daily basis?  But I bet they knew what Mr. So and So was up to down the way. They had to. Mr. So and So and Mrs. Whoever and your family were the only ones for miles. You had each other. You didn't have Them. Community is give and take. Community is I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine. Community is I'll help you finish siding your house if you butcher and process my deer this year. It's bartering. It's helping each other. It's following through on your end of the agreement. It's offering help in ways that you can and knowing other people will help you out when you need it. I don't feel that with government. I don't feel that with the public school system or the medical system or the corporate food system. That's not community. That's Them. And yet there's a lot of people relying on those things. And when that system starts to break down—as it currently is—we have a lot of struggle and chaos. Because people have been relying on Them, not each other. This is important to talk about I hear people in the survival community sometimes spout off the importance of being able to care for yourself because ain't nobody coming to help you. And while I agree with that, I think some people misconstrue what they're saying. The way I see it, they're saying learn to take care of yourselves because They aren't coming to help you. But you'd better believe that someone is coming to help you. Your community will help each other, right? You've seen this happen in times of struggle, right? Gosh, I hope so. If not, you need to build that community. I also think it's important to talk about because there are people out there who won't accept help from others because they've learned that relying on others is weak. Or that you're taking a handout. Or that you should be able to fend for yourself. And I think they've learned that because of watching others take from the system and everything that comes from that. Some uncomfortable truths Now, I want to point out here that I think it's great that there are food banks and soup kitchens and places for people to get clothing and there are shelters for people who need it. I'm not against assistance. I just know that some forms of assistance are horribly abused by some people. And I think it's harder to abuse that assistance when it's not done on a large scale by Them. But, and this is a huge but, if we're going to be a people who talk about how it's not the government's job...

Software Social
So This Is Burnout

Software Social

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 23, 2021 39:07


Every doctor is concerned about your vital signs, but a good doctor cares about your overall health. Your website deserves the same care, and Hey Check It is here to help- Hey Check It is a website performance monitoring and optimization tool- Goes beyond just core web vitals to give you a full picture on how to optimize your website to give your users an optimal, happy experience- Includes AI-generated SEO data, accessibility scanning and site speed checks with suggestions on how to optimize, spelling and grammar checking, custom sitemaps, and a number of various tools to help youStart a free trial today at heycheckit.comAUTOMATED TRANSCRIPTColleen Schnettler  0:00  Good morning, Michelle. Hey, Colleen, it's early here in California. But I am here for you.Michele Hansen  0:42  It's late here in Denmark, it is dark. It is not even five.Unknown Speaker  0:47  My goodness.Colleen Schnettler  0:48  So I think this week, I would like to talk to something I talk about something a little more serious. And I want to talk about you. Because you have been going through some stuff.Michele Hansen  1:02  Yeah, I have. It kind of occurred to me this week that I I don't I don't know, I might be going through burnouts. Or at least I have, like, way too much stress. Like, like, I feel like I'm DDoSing myself.Colleen Schnettler  1:22  I love that line, by the way. So first of all, I guess your best friend and podcast host has been telling you this for like eight months.Michele Hansen  1:33  Like, we're like you're gonna burn out. I'm like, I'm fine. And then our friends of ours were like, you know, after like, I launched something like, you know, especially infoproduct people, they're like, I went through like a depression after that I really burned out like, and I was like, I hear you but like, I'm special. I'm not gonna that's not gonna happen to me. You know, all think we're special. We all think we're special. And we all are special. But there are also things that everyone goes through. Um, yeah, I have so much going on in my life right now. And, and I think this, I mean, I Okay, so you've known this for a long time. But like, I I think it really started to become apparent to me that like, given everything I'm doing I have really like down prioritized taking care of myself. That was something I got really thinking about at founder Summit. And it's not just like a work life balance problem or a, you know, need to like join a gym problem. Like, I think it's like, bigger than that. But I don't really know, like, how do you unburn out? How do you do though?Colleen Schnettler  2:43  Let's take a step back. When you say you haven't deprioritize taking care of yourself, what did you use to do that? You don't do like you have stopped doing over the past year. And like what led to that. I'm curious how you got to where you are.Michele Hansen  3:00  I mean, so I really don't first of all, like I really don't work out as much like and I used to be someone who was like super active, like, I used to run to work, bike to work, play tennis, do gymnastics, soccer on top of that, like super, super active and have really become less active. And I don't know if that's the pandemic or like moving countries and my habits like change, you know, you have to establish entirely new habits. As I was talking to people about it founder summit who are nomads, they were saying that they didn't realize until COVID and they were forced to stay in one place. how stressful it had been to like, move places every couple of months and have to like refigure it all over again. Like oh, like where's the grocery store that I like? And like, can I get the food I like and you know, where's the gym that I like? Where can I work? Like all those kinds of like basic everyday questions become sort of stressful. Like I definitely feel like that like I didn't go to the dentist for 18 months. Mostly because it's like so like hack I have a package I've been trying to mail for three months and I'm just so overwhelmed by the idea of like figuring out the Danish postal system that it's still sitting at my desk. So like basic everyday things become really overwhelming when you're abroad. Yeah, I think like one of my habits changed but then I think I just have so much going on also that like you know I think the great thing about working for yourself is like if you want to take an hour lunch break and read a book like you can do that but like I have been feeling like I don't even have time to eat I don't have time to make myself healthy food like the idea of just like even cooking a piece of salmon or whatever like seems overwhelming and so like I have really allowed my health to like totally slip because I just feel like I don't have time for it but I also don't have those like sort of habit triggers I guess that I used to have you know if I was in my environment I was in you know, do Two years ago, for sure. And I think with everything that I have going on, that's like become really acute.Colleen Schnettler  5:09  So and you would lump. I mean, that's your physical health. But also you said you don't read books for pleasure. I mean, I think that's what you just said. So that's not that's your whole, not just do it like I do. Okay. Yeah. I mean, have you also, like, what about your, your mental health are you also are you still not having time to do the things you used to love that brought you joy.Michele Hansen  5:33  So I differentiate that, and I think this is like I've been, you know, so I'm obviously not an expert in this, I'm just somebody who's going through differentiating between burnout and depression, where, like, I actually feel like my mental health is pretty good. Like I've done I've done a lot of work on my mental health the past couple of years. Um, and, you know, depression is like, when you try to, you know, you try to get the energy to do the things that you liked, and then you don't get any enjoyment out of it, it's like the dopamine just doesn't even fire. Or if it does, it only lasts for a second. So whereas you know, a non depressed person, maybe you can go for a walk, and, and then you or you see a friend, and it kind of brightens you for the rest of the day, and at least helps you get through it. You know, when I've gone through depression, it's like, that enjoyment you get from that, like, you get like 30 seconds of enjoyment out of it, and then it's just gone. And you even feel worse than you did before, because you were expecting to make you feel good. And then it didn't, and then it just like spirals. I'm not in that state right now. It's more just like this constant feeling of stress. And like, I don't have enough time for anything. And feeling exhausted by that constant stress. But it's also not anxiety, either. Because an idea I guess I'm not I don't really know how to explain this. But like it's, it's not like worrying. And it's not like a tension, or No, I don't, I don't know how to explain it. But yeah, it's kind of it's gotten me to Google X. It's like, I don't know what this feeling is. And then I kind of, you know, I mentioned it to some friends of ours. And they're like, that's, that's the burnout. We were telling you was going to happen. And I'm like, oh, and then I'm like, so like, what is like the plan to like, get out of this? Like, is there like, what does your schedule look like when you were getting out of burnout? They're like, yeah, that's kind of like, you're trying to, like, make a schedule of it. Like, right. And one of our friends was, like, I Googled, you know, how to be a type B personality when I was going through.Unknown Speaker  7:49  It's amazing.Michele Hansen  7:51  Um, yeah, but I think it's kind of it's kind of weird. I was like, I don't even talk about this on the podcast, because it's like, I don't have a solution here. You know, I almost feel like, you know, I should have some sort of solution to give people but I don't I'm just kind of stuck in the middle of it. And, and just sort of talking it out, because I also, I don't, I feel like if people heard met, people mentioned, like having burnout, but like, and I guess if people know of like a good podcast or blog posts on the experience of burnout and how someone got through it, I would really love to read that. Because I feel like we don't really talk about it enough. So I'm kind of, I guess, trying to talk about it as a way of giving visibility to this thing that it turns out, a lot of my entrepreneur friends have gone through.Colleen Schnettler  8:46  Yeah, well, I think it's, I mean, as much as you're comfortable, I think it's good that you're talking about it. I you know, the one of the things. One of my takeaways from founder summit was I actually talked to quite a few people who went through massive burnout. And it seems to be just something that happens to us in our field in modern day, a lot, probably because we can work anywhere at any time. So we could theoretically be working all the time. But also, I, again, I think it's I'm sure it's a very personal journey to get out of it. But I feel like you need to take like, a month off. Let's talk about that.Michele Hansen  9:26  Yeah, and I think that's really where I'm struggling because I feel like I can't and but I'm also sort of, you know, somebody who's drowning and like, people are saying, hey, stop flailing. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, that like, and that just makes me panic even more. But like, so where I, you know, the stuff I have going on, like, you know, so we have to co do and like, I want to stress that like, I still really enjoy working on geocode do and I think actually Mateus and I were talking about this last night, and he's like, you know, we've been running this for almost eight years. And he's like, I'm even still surprised that we still find it interesting, we still find it challenging, we still enjoy working on it we enjoy the customers we work with, we enjoy, you know, helping them and like, it's still a problem we're really, like, excited about solving. And, you know, it does not feel like a drag. And so like, so I have to do going on. Of course, there's this podcast and all of my book stuff and like, and that's a joy. But also, I've been putting pressure on myself to sell it when I don't really have to, like, you know, like that. Like, there's not like I purposely didn't pitch it to a publisher, I purposefully didn't want someone telling me, you need to sell this many books, and you need to go out on this book tour and like, do all these things like I wanted that, you know, that decision for myself of how much time I spent on it. But now I'm in this situation where I feel like I have to justify all the time I spent on it some spending all this time promoting it. SoColleen Schnettler  10:56  let's go back. So yeah, so my my business partners, you haven't even gotten through the whole list. But sure, yeah. Okay, so let's go back a little bit. So my business partner Sean has, in the past experienced incredible, massive burnout. And one of the things he said to you yesterday was, like, the number one symptom of burnout is thinking, you can't work less. Like, there's no way around it, I can't solve this problem, because I cannot work less. So I challenge that, first of all, okay, but I don't know if we're here to problem solve, or if we're just here to talk. SoMichele Hansen  11:32  we're kind of a mix of both. But I mean, so I think so here, let me get through the full list of things.Colleen Schnettler  11:36  Okay, keep going. So just to go do,Michele Hansen  11:38  there is what I term my extracurriculars, which is the book like this podcast being on other podcasts, like, you know, the fun business stuff. Um, and then there's also I'm in Danish class all day, Monday and Friday. Right. And then also, I have a family and, you know, another stressors on top of that is, you know, I'm in a foreign country, and, you know, again, talking to people founder Summit, you know, talking to other people who moved abroad, during the pandemic, there was a universal Zero out of 10, do not recommend on that. And then also, you know, we're in a pandemic, so like, there's all sorts of reasons to be burned out. But then the reason why I feel like I can't do less is because like, just I mean, quite frankly, like, for immigration reasons, like I have to be in Danish class, and I have to be working full time. And so I'm squeezing in basically, a full work week, you know, on the edges on Monday and Friday, and then working as much as I can, to say, Wednesday, Thursday, plus, you know, like, replying, the email, you know, when I wake up in the morning, and you know, at night, you know, normal entrepreneur, lack of boundaries with email stuff. And so like, that's why I feel like I can't work less because like, my life necessitate necessitates that I'm in language school twice a week, which feels like a part time job. And then, like, just for legal immigration reasons, like I have to be working full time at the same time. So I feel kind of backed into a corner almost. And then so then, like, the last thing to let go, because obviously, I can't drop family off of that. I guess one benefit of being somewhere where I don't really have a lot of friends in daily life is it like social is, you know, there's, there's zero there. So there's really nothing to drop. But I'm like this, doing this podcast and the book and everything. Like, that's the easiest stuff to fall back on. But that's the thing I like, really enjoying. And so I guess I could sensibly work less and not do this, but like, I quite enjoy this. And like, I enjoy talking to people on their podcasts. And I enjoy doing stuff about my book, and I enjoy talking to you and doing this podcast. And so like, so the only thing I'm left with is, you know, the taking away the thing I enjoy the most and I, you know, like, I wish I could only be in Danish class one hour a week, but that's just not an option. And I think that's the thing. That's the biggest drag on myself. But also there's just the general I mean, stress of the pandemic, right, like, you know, you've probably heard that Europe, several European countries are locking down again, like so it's like, are we facing another lockdown, where I have to balance between working and feeling like a bad parent, because I'm like, you know, balancing homeschooling and working and everything. And so that's like, even stressing me out even more because it's like, Oh, my God, I have to get even more out of each day when I already feel like I'm getting trying to get so much out of each day. And I think just all of that is just kind of making me feel just sort of stressed and exhausted. Just likeColleen Schnettler  14:57  that's a lot. I mean, especially the foreign country. To me, we move to California. And it's so annoying slash stressful. Find a new doctors and dentists. And we're in the same country, they still speak English,Michele Hansen  15:08  they tend you're in like constant sunlight. Oh, that makes aColleen Schnettler  15:12  huge difference. By the way, everyone should move to California, because I'm happy every day because the sun is shining every day. But no, that's a lot, Michelle. I mean, you end this has been so prolonged for you, right? Because it was the pandemic, and then you move to a foreign country. That was that was a lot to take on at once you left your friends you left, you know, the place where you were comfortable and you loved you left the language. You left the healthcare system, like everything that that was really American healthcare system youMichele Hansen  15:42  like it's, it's terrible, but at least at least they knew how it worked. Yeah, at least you know how to go to the doctor, I could go to the doctor and feel confident I could communicate with the brain. But I wasn't like going, like practicing, you know? How to say, you know, yes, sure. I floss my teeth. You know?Colleen Schnettler  16:03  The change over the past? Gosh, is it been two, three years now? How long has this pandemic been going on? The, the amount of stress you have taken on is tremendous. And I feel for you, because it's just it sounds really, really hard.Michele Hansen  16:29  And everybody who said they went through burnout, like they're like, the thing I did was, you know, I fired all my clients, and I didn't work for two months. Yeah, or I didn't work for a year, like I just lived on savings for a year. And I'm like, I don't feel I can do that. And like also, like people, like, you know, I traveled or whatever. And it's like, I have a family. So I can't just like do nothing all day. Like, even if I wanted to, like I have responsibilities like that, you know, do not change regardless of how I'm feeling. And then, like, legally, I have to be working. And so I feel I mean, I don't know,Colleen Schnettler  17:10  it sounds to me like you feel stuck, or trapped. Yeah. And the situation superMichele Hansen  17:14  stuck. And I don't know how to get unstuck.Colleen Schnettler  17:19  So it seems like the first step is decrease your stress level. Yes. I mean, here's the thing, you're in the middle of it. And so don't freak out. But let's just let's just think outside the box. Okay. So you're in the middle of this super, super high, intense, stressful situation. But I'm going to still say that a lot of it is of your own making. And yeah. And I understand that you don't want to give up the book promo, or you don't want to do our podcast less because these are things you really enjoy. But your health, you know, has to be your happiness. That should be number one.Michele Hansen  18:02  But like why do I take away the things that make me happy? Oh, IColleen Schnettler  18:06  didn't say take them away. You aren't ready for Collins great ideas. Oh, God, what is Collins great ideas. Okay, so I'm just gonna throw these things out there not to scare you. Just to and I don't want you to problem solve or tell me why you can't do them. Just to show you that. Like, there are options even if they seem absolutely crazy. Okay,Michele Hansen  18:28  are you ready? Okay, okay, I will I will play along. Okay, just play along with Romani. Okay,Colleen Schnettler  18:33  you could move back to the United States. Now listen, one, okay, could sell geocoder do and take two years off and you don't work at all. You could hire someone to be you. And I know the onboarding of that you had you don't want it. You've told me a million times. I know you don't want to hire someone. But if you could get a system in place where you only work, you don't have to work on geocode do you'd still be working full time in the eyes of the Danish government? But you yourself wouldn't have to be managing the contracts and putting in the hours. There's like they don't you know as long as you're they think you're working ish. The full I have toMichele Hansen  19:12  be working. Hello. Danish government people listening.Colleen Schnettler  19:17  I wait. I mean, I would be working because you would be managing okay, you would be working. Because you would be managing a person who was doing the things for you? What if you just stopped doing what would happen? If you did nothing for God? Oh, except like legally required things like, like, you What if you just on your website, you go to your website today? You say we are not taking any more customers for six months. Shut it down. I mean, don't shut it down. But like, what if you were just like, No, no one else gets to come on six months. I mean, there's options. I know these sound crazy to you. Okay, no idea. Okay. I'm just trying to I'm just like trying to help you see that, like, roll their eyes.Unknown Speaker  19:57  You're like, I see it. See?Colleen Schnettler  20:03  You and I know you love promote. And so then of course, then there's the smaller things, but I don't think not like depending on your, your rate of promoting the book. Yeah, you could just totally stop again, it's a book, it's not going to go anywhere, totally stop for six months. Right? All this stuff will be here, once you are recovered, but your health and your happiness that is your life, this is your life. And Michelle, you have made it. And you, you're so stressed. And that makes me sad.Michele Hansen  20:36  You know, I remember I always remember hearing, you know, money doesn't buy happiness when I was a kid. And, you know, he always interpreted that to mean Oh, yeah, you can't just you know, I don't know, go buy yourself something and then feel happy. And they don't tell you how bitter it is, when you're in a situation that can't be solved by money.Colleen Schnettler  21:02  Yeah, that's intense,Michele Hansen  21:05  even when you could have it and, you know, I mean, money by as, you know, therapy and coaches and, you know, help with cleaning the house and or, you know, employees for that matter. You know, whatever else, but you know, money truly doesn't buy happiness. And that is a bitter pill to swallow.Colleen Schnettler  21:25  Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of other small things you can do, which may help but they might just be bandaids. And so I really think you need to take a good look at like you, you're so happy in in what you have built with your husband, the work your work environment, and what you are building with the book like, but it doesn't seem right now. And it's been this way for a while, right? This hasn't been a month, this hasn't been two months, it's been this way for a while where it doesn't seem like it's bringing you overall happiness to the extent maybe you thought it would, and it might just be have too much going on. But like, I'm worried about you. That's there. I said it.Michele Hansen  22:09  I think the fact that I have so much going on right now is like bringing these other issues to the fore like we have talked in the past about how I really struggled with work life balance, and like, if like, like I really love working on giuoco do and both of us like we're not selling the business, we we both really enjoy working on it and working on it together. Like, but if I could work 12 hour days on do co do and book stuff like I would do that and be totally happy to do that. Yes, I could blame this on Okay, the extra stress of spending 10 hours a week in language school is like, really adding a lot of stress to this. But I don't think that gets to the bottom, like, like, I don't think I'm being honest with myself. If I say that, that is the problem like that is just like the straw that's breaking the camel's back here. That's, like I struggle with work boundaries. I struggle with, you know, prioritizing myself, like, and giving myself a break and feeling like I deserve a break. Like I think this is this conversation here is like, I don't feel like I can take a break. I don't feel like I deserve a break. I don't feel like it's something that's available to me. Um, I definitely consider myself a recovering workaholic and somebody who wrapped up way too much of their self worth and self identity in work. Which is not as bad as it used to be but like, like, I feel like those things are the real issues and like you know, we kind of talked about how doing that exercise at like well that exercise at founder summit, but also like when it comes to like business like I'm like super competent, and like confident and and like I just make decisions and I feel very self assured and I find it easy to move forward. You tend to like doubt yourself and do a lot of research and feel stuck and like really struggle with that but like when it comes to taking care of yourself and your work life balance and your social life and your your health and everything like you are like so decisive and confident and just make decisions and implement things and do things. And I'm like totally the opposite. Like we're completely opposite.Unknown Speaker  24:38  Yep. On these two things,Michele Hansen  24:40  and you're like, you have to have better work life balance and I'm like, like, how, how do like what's like, I don't know what that means. Like, I think I need to read a book on how to relax like, you know, like, Where where is this guide? Where is this schedule of like,Unknown Speaker  24:59  I can Please be the episode of this. I need to read a book about how to relax. Please title the episode like, that's amazing.Michele Hansen  25:07  Seriously, like, I feel like if you ever got to a point where like you were like I'm too stressed out, like you would immediately cut back on working and feel no guilt or shame or reservations and like just make it work.Colleen Schnettler  25:21  Yeah, absolutely. I think maybe my I mean, I think my experience is a lot different from yours being a military spouse with three kids. If I can't, I have to take care. I mean, they're older now. But like when they were little, like if I wasn't healthy, mentally, physically, whatever, I could not care for all these little people. And so I think part of it is I learned that years ago, like, if I don't have my shit in order, this whole thing falls apart. Because Nick was gone all the time. My husband, you know, he travels a lot for a long, long, long period of time. So I have learned over the years how important it is to prioritize myself really. And it's my life. Right? Let's get back to that. Like, this is your life. Like, how do you want to live it? I mean, right. Not the way you're living it right now. Not with this incredibly burdening like anvil of stress on your shoulders.Michele Hansen  26:19  Yeah, I mean, I feel I like something you said to me at founder Summit, one of our I don't know if this was our debrief knife, when we we ordered guacamole at midnight, I did some self pampering so good. That like you're like, you know, I met all these people who are super successful, and their businesses are where I want to be. And they're, like, I'm happier than them. Like, they're all miserable. Like,Unknown Speaker  26:47  I'm a little embarrassed that you shared that on the podcast, but I did. So we can love you all, thank you for chatting with me. Because not all of your character.Michele Hansen  26:59  Not all of them were miserable. But like they had a lot of, you know, business problems. And it created a lot of like, personal problems, and you didn't want to have those problems, like the stress of managing employees and just, you know, all this other stuff like, but like, you know, you're saying how like your work life balance is really good. Your family life is really good. Like, you've talked about how you're hesitant to work more because you don't want to disrupt how good your personal and then like family life is. And like Yeah, I like I just, I don't even I don't even know how to wrap my head around that. So that's it my family life is bad, or I don't like them. Like I do. Like it's just I don't know, like, it'sUnknown Speaker  27:48  a lot. You're like, well, I you know,Michele Hansen  27:51  what if there's nights when you know, Nick wanted to hang out, and then I'm working and I'm like, What is this world where like, the default is not like, one of your like, is that what you thought? Like I said, your laptop? Like what is that? Like, I was just like, that's like so normal for us that like, you know, one of us has some sort of work to do we have to do all the time. Like and we're better than we used to be but like Yeah, and like, I don't know, hanging out with your spouse. Like I just I don't I don't even know like I don't know. i Our marriage is so funny. Our marriage is very different. Um, I just really I don't know, I feel very stuck. And I feel like all these solutions everyone is giving me I'm still like, Well, that was work wouldn't work because this and this wouldn't work. Isn't that like, I'm still I don't know what yeah, that but I'm being very obstinate. I'm not being very, very compliance person to be helped.Colleen Schnettler  28:53  That's what I think that was Shawn's point about, like, when you say I cannot change anything, that's when you know, you need to change something.Michele Hansen  29:00  Yeah. Yeah.Colleen Schnettler  29:04  Yeah, yeah. And it's a whole mindset shift. So actually, I was talking to my other business parent, partner Aaron about this yesterday. And I said that same thing where I was like, I feel like I'm happier than most people. And he was like, Why do you think that is? And I had a couple I had many reasons, but like one of them to like, again, as, like we, as a military spouse, like our friends actually die. I mean, that's like, in real life, like people die. Close friends of ours have died. And I think, you know, when that happens, like my good friend down the street is a widow. She was widowed at 29 with two kids. That really gives you perspective. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I think that really, really helps. I think I'm really good at keeping perspective because I live in this world that is so much more dangerous than everyone else's world. It's like what is really important. You get one life, you don't know how long it's going to be. How do you want to spend it?Michele Hansen  29:57  It sounds like you take that perspective. Not as you know that your problems don't matter because you're not dead, or that your spouse isn't dead, it's more, which I think is often how that comes across. But it's more so that being surrounded by death, or having it, surrounded by it, but yeah, that was a little. Having it, having it be this kind of looming part of the community kind of like having having it be a presence in the community in a way that it's really not in mind. Like, it forces you to reevaluate those things, and to not take your time for granted. Which, you know, I mean, like, I mean, and, and I don't know, and he's also sort of an ADHD person thing, where, like, we struggle with the concept of time, and like, there's these great talks about how like, ADHD is this disorder of how you perceive time, and like, Hmm, you know, we let things expand to the amount of time allotted, and then some and so we need, like, deadlines for this stuff, like, and so if I feel like there's no deadline on me feeling better, or prioritizing myself, or whatever it is, like I just, I will just fill that time with other things because, and it has been externally set deadline to like, if I make up my own deadline, like, I will blow through it, like, it just, it's like, it doesn't exist, because I know it's made up, like I like outsmart the deadline, like, to my own detriment. Um, you know, but that doesn't, that time doesn't last forever. And it sounds like you get reminders that, you know, none of us are guaranteed any amount of time.Colleen Schnettler  31:38  So, and to be fair, like, on the other side of that coin, I sometimes I'm not, I want to say convinced, but I am sometimes concerned that like all of my businesses will not be successful, because I'm not willing to sacrifice everything else in my life. And, you know, so there's two sides to that, right? Like, I might always have a SAS that makes $1,000 a month and just hang out here, because I'm not willing to work 8090 100 hours a week to make it happen. So you know, trade offs, butMichele Hansen  32:10  I also I don't feel like I'm sacrificing everything because I still do have like, like, family life is also something I'm not going to sacrifice because I think it's something that I did in the past. And now I don't you know, I mean, like today's like, kind of a totally packed day for me, schedule wise. And I was like, you know, tonight, I'm just gonna, like, put our daughter to bed and probably, like, fall asleep with her. Like, but you know, we hadColleen Schnettler  32:41  her, but it is 530 Your time right now already. So, you know, I have something after that. Right. And you're going to do another podcast as soon as we get off this podcast. So and I know a lot of that is timezone stuff. ButMichele Hansen  32:53  which suck. I hate them. Yeah. Like not being able to do anything with customers until like 8am at the earliest, or at sorry, like 2pm if they're an early riser, usually 3pm Six, if it's California, like, yeah, that isColleen Schnettler  33:11  rough. Okay, so let's go back. Let's circle back circle back to you. Because we got a little distracted. And how we get the circle back. I know we're running out of time to solve all your problems. So in 30 minutes,Unknown Speaker  33:30  I think we have five minutes left till your next podcast.Colleen Schnettler  33:35  But seriously, like, what what is your? I'm so happy. Okay, so when you brought this up yesterday with our group, I was so happy to see that, because it showed me that you were fine. You were finally seeing it. And so what is your plan?Michele Hansen  33:52  Dude, I don't have one. I we I'm stuck in the middle of this like,Colleen Schnettler  33:56  so you don't know. You're still young? No idea, I think. Yeah.Michele Hansen  34:00  I mean, I was like, trying this week. I was like, maybe I can like, you know, dude, you could do stuff like Tuesday, Wednesday, and then do extracurricular stuff Thursday, but then it kind of ended up meshing together. And I'm like, actually, I really need to, like, sequester myself and like, get several focused hours of work done on like, Monday afternoons, like, I don't know, that just sounds like more like planning and scheduling. And when it does sound like that sounds like you know, sort of optimizing within the current bounds rather than like actually stepping back and taking time to like, reflect and focus on myself, which is just I think that's the bigger thing is I don't know how to do that. Like, well, and I was like, should I hire a coach, but then I was like, I feel like I don't have time for more meetings. Like, you know, it's just like a coach. IColleen Schnettler  34:51  hire a relaxing coach. How do I relax, coach? Yeah, I think you're right, like trying to over optimize your schedule is not the solution. You have to fundamentally changed the box, right? And I knowMichele Hansen  35:02  the paradigm is wrong. And I'm just working within the current paradigm because I don't know anything else. I just got it. It's not working.Colleen Schnettler  35:11  Right? Like, I know those ideas I threw out, I know you're not going to sell the company or hire someone or move to the United States. But my point is like, you could I mean, there are other options that are available to me. So try to think outside the box because you have to change the box because the box is not working for you. Yeah.Michele Hansen  35:31  Yeah. Well, that's a lot for me to,Unknown Speaker  35:37  you're gonna think about it. You promise?Michele Hansen  35:39  I'm gonna think about it. I'm gonna buy some books about stuff. I don't know. I don't know.Unknown Speaker  35:52  Okay, I was giving myselfMichele Hansen  35:53  homework not the solution, either.Unknown Speaker  35:55  That's not not the solution is read a book about how to relax, read a book about how to stop writingMichele Hansen  36:02  about relaxing, right? Like, it's not like, relaxing without meditating. Like,Colleen Schnettler  36:06  it's not the right word. You know,Michele Hansen  36:08  I already meditate anyway. Like, it's not like it's, yeah, it's I don't know, I don't know what it like, I don't know anybody listening. You've gone through burnout. You have some the, I feel like at this point, I less need like solutions from people. And I more need, like, hope thinking about it, if that makes sense. Like framing a problem. Right? Yeah. So anyway, if anyone's gone through this, like, let me know, and you want to, you know, DM with me or something about it, and, or you have a book that like really helped you when you went through it. I feel like burnout is I've gathered that's very different for everyone. And the solutions are very different from everyone. So think I'm intentionally not asking for solutions, because that needs to be something that I figure out, right? Otherwise, because I'm just gonna sit here. Yeah, no, it's gonna work. That's gonna work and then I'm not gonna do what the problem, right? I need to I don't know. I need to think different think outside the box. You did new box.Colleen Schnettler  37:13  You need a new box. Okay, well, I wish you luck. Keep me posted on how it goes. And I think with that, we will wrap up this week's episode of the software Show podcast. Please reach out to Michelle on Twitter. If you have any advice or you yourself have gone through burnout. I think those would be welcome conversations. And let us know what you thought of the show. We're at software slash pod till next week.Michele Hansen  37:40  This episode was also brought to you by tele tele is a browser based screen recorder. For videos that showcase your work and share your knowledge. You can capture your screen, camera and present slides. You can also customize your videos with backgrounds layouts and other video clips. Tella makes it easy to record updates for your teammates, launch videos for your followers and demos for your customers. Record your next product demo with tele visit tele.tv/software Social to get 30% off tele proMichele HansenThis episode was also brought to you by Tella.Tella is a browser-based screen recorder for videos that showcase your work and share your knowledge.You can capture your screen, camera, and present slides. You can also customise your videos with backgrounds, layouts, and other video clips.Tella makes it easy to record updates for your team mates, launch videos for your followers, and demos for your customers.Record your next product demo with Tella.Visit tella.tv/softwaresocial to get 30% off Tella Pro

Your Anxiety Toolkit
Ep. 211 People Pleasing (with Shala Nicely)

Your Anxiety Toolkit

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 19, 2021 42:28


In this week's podcast episode, we have the amazing Shala Nicely, author of Is Fred in the refrigerator? and Everyday Mindfulness for OCD.  In this episode, we talked about people-pleasing and how people-pleasing comes from a place of shame, anxiety, and fear of judgment from others.  Kimberley and Shala share their own experiences with people-pleasing and how it created more shame, more anxiety, and more distress. In This Episode: The definition of people-pleasing How it is common for people who have OCD and Anxiety disorders. How people-pleasing impacts people's self-esteem and their wellbeing. How people-pleasing anxiety keeps us stuck. How to manage people-pleasing in daily life. How self-compassion can help to manage people-pleasing. Links To Things I Talk About: Shala's Website shalanicely.com Shala's Book “Is Fred In the Refrigerator?” ERP School: https://www.cbtschool.com/erp-school-lp Episode Sponsor: This episode of Your Anxiety Toolkit is brought to you by CBTschool.com.  CBTschool.com is a psychoeducation platform that provides courses and other online resources for people with anxiety, OCD, and Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviors. Go to cbtschool.com to learn more. Spread the love! Everyone needs tools for anxiety... If you like Your Anxiety Toolkit Podcast, visit YOUR ANXIETY TOOLKIT PODCAST to subscribe free and you'll never miss an episode. And if you really like Your Anxiety Toolkit, I'd appreciate you telling a friend (maybe even two). Episode Transcription This is Your Anxiety Toolkit - Episode 211. Welcome to Your Anxiety Toolkit. I'm your host, Kimberley Quinlan. This podcast is fueled by three main goals. The first goal is to provide you with some extra tools to help you manage your anxiety. Second goal, to inspire you. Anxiety doesn't get to decide how you live your life. And number three, and I leave the best for last, is to provide you with one big, fat virtual hug, because experiencing anxiety ain't easy. If that sounds good to you, let's go. Welcome back, everybody. This is an episode I am so excited to share with you. Maybe actually “excited” isn't the word. I feel that this is such an important conversation. Today we have my amazing friend and someone I look up to and I consider a mentor, the amazing Shala Nicely. She's been on the podcast before. Everybody loves her, as do I. And interestingly that I say that because today we are talking about people-pleasing—the act of getting people to like you. Shala is very easy to love, but we are talking about how invasive people-pleasing can become, how problematic it can become, our own personal experience with people-pleasing, and what we have done and are continuing to do to manage people-pleasing behaviors. It is such a wonderful, deep, comprehensive conversation, so I cannot wait to share that with you in just a few minutes. Before we do that, I would like to first, of course, share with you the “I did a hard thing” for the week. This is from Jack, and I'm so excited because Jack said: “I haven't been able to drive on the highway since I had a severe panic attack a couple of months ago. I have felt trapped and it has put a strain on my life. I recently drove on the highway for an hour by myself. I felt anxious during it, but I was able to calm myself down. It was a huge step for me.” Amazing work, Jack. This is such a hard thing and you totally did it. This is so inspiring. You got through it. You actually stand your fear right in the face. So cool. Just proof that it is always a beautiful day to do hard things.  Let's move over to the review of the week. This is from YFWWFH, and this review said: “Life-changing in a meaningful way. I found Kimberley's podcast through another psychology podcast I've been listening to where she was a guest. I started listening to hers and was so happy. I found it. The insight this podcast offers and the expertise she shares are incredible and truly make a difference in the way you think about things and feel when struggling with some of the topics talked about. I truly love this podcast and the effect that it has.” Yay, that brings me such joy. Thank you so much for sharing that review. You can leave your reviews on iTunes. Please go over to iTunes to leave a review. The more reviews you leave, the more people we can reach, which means the more people I can help with this free resource.  That being said, let's move over to the show, such an important interview. I am so excited and I'm so curious to see what comes up for you as you listen. I hope it's helpful. I hope it gives you food for thought. I hope it gives you direction. And I just can't wait to share it with you. So let's go straight to the episode. I will see you guys next week. Have a wonderful day. It is a beautiful day to do hard things. Kimberley: Okay. So, you guys know that I love Shala Nicely, and today I have the one and only Shala Nicely talking with us about people-pleasing. And this whole conversation came organically out of conversations we've had recently. So, welcome, Shala. Shala: Thank you, Kimberley. And as you know, the love is mutual. So thank you for [04:42 inaudible] me again. Kimberley: Okay. I have so many questions and this is probably the most relevant topic to me in my stage of my recovery. You can share as much as you want to share, but I'm so grateful that we're talking about people-pleasing, because I feel like it runs rampant for those who have anxiety. Would you agree? Shala: Absolutely. Kimberley: How would you define people-pleasing?  Shala: People-pleasing to me is putting your own needs in the backseat so that you can do things that you think will make others happy or like you. You're not quite sure about that. You're mind-reading, you are estimating what other people might want or what society might want. I think people-pleasing is not just, “I'm pleasing the individual person.” It could be, “I'm pleasing a culture, a society, a family.” But I think it's all about putting your own needs in the backseat and doing what you think other people want in order to make them happy, but really it's in order to reduce your own anxiety. Kimberley: Right. So, there's so much there you said that I want to pull apart. So, you emphasized “You think,” and I think there is a major concept there I want you to share. We want to please people. Of course, we want to please people. We like seeing smiley, happy faces. I don't like seeing sad faces and angry faces. But so much of people-pleasing is based on what in our minds we think they want. Can you share your thoughts on that? Shala: If you look at people-pleasing behavior–I'll take me as an example–obviously, it starts with an intrusive thought, “What if they don't like me? I've not done well enough. They're going to think less of me, drop me,” et cetera, et etcetera. So, I think it starts with some sort of intrusive thought like that. And from there, it goes into how to answer that what-if. And the what-if is made up. We don't actually know it's a real problem. It's an intrusive thought that has come in. It may or may not be a problem. And so, if we engage in this, we're trying to figure out, “Well, how can I make sure that what-if doesn't happen?” And so, you're dealing with a really made up situation. And so, there's really no data there for you to know what to do. And so you're guessing. “Gosh, what if this person isn't getting back to me because I did something wrong and they don't like me? And I need to do something to show them how much I like them so that they'll change their mind about me.” The whole thing is based on the premise that what if this person doesn't like me, which is probably 99% of the time not even a premise. So, we're guessing all over the place in both guessing there's a problem we have to solve. And then guessing how to solve that because we don't really know if there are problems. So we have to whack it together, you might say. Kimberley: Right. I remember early in my marriage, me getting my knickers in a knot over something, and my husband saying, “What's happening?” And I'm like, “Well, you want me to do such and such this way?” And he was like, “I've never said that. I've never even thought that. What made you think that I would want you to be that way?” And I had created this whole story in my head. For me, that's a lot of how people-pleasing plays out, is I come up with a story about what they must want me to be, and then I assume I have to follow that. How does it play out for you? Shala: I think “story” is the right word to use there. You create this whole story in a scenario. It's got main characters and a plot and the ending is always horrible, and it becomes very believable in your mind. The thing is it's in your mind. We've made it all up. But those stories convey very powerful emotions and then we're acting to somehow get rid of those emotions, which were created by the story that we made up in the first place. Kimberley: Right. And that was the second thing that you said that I think is so compelling, is for me in my life goal of reducing people-pleasing behaviors, I will be on this journey for the rest of my life. I'm pretty confident of it. It's a matter that I have to learn how to sit with the feeling instead of just going into people-pleasing to remove that feeling. Is that how you would explain it for yourself as well? Shala: Yes. And I will echo your sentiments. I will be right alongside you on this journey of trying not to people-please the rest of my life. And I think it's sitting with some uncomfortable emotions and it's really sitting with the uncertainty of “we don't know” what other people think. And it's easy, especially if you have anxiety to assume the negative because that feels like some sort of certainty. “Oh, they must not like me.” That's actually sometimes a more comfortable thought than “I don't know,” fit with “I just don't know.” Kimberley: Right. Because when we tell ourselves “They mustn't like us,” at least then we don't have a place to work from. We can gain control back. Whereas if we are not certain, that's a really uncomfortable place. I know as we were talking, do you think this shows up the same for folks with OCD as it does for folks who don't have OCD? Do you think there's a difference or do you feel like it's the same? Shala: That's a good question. I might only be able to offer a biased answer because I have OCD and I work with people with OCD. So, that's going to be the frame of reference that I'm coming from most often. I think that with OCD, it could come from a foundational place of really thinking that you're not worth very much. I think that comes a lot because OCD spends its days if you're untreated, yelling at you and telling you are horrible and nitpicking every little thing that you do wrong. And it's like living with an abusive person when you have untreated OCD, especially when it goes on for years and years, which happens to so many of us with OCD. And if you hear that for however long–months, years, whatever–you start to believe it. And then you don't think you are worth pleasing, and you almost feel like, “Gosh, maybe if I made people around me happy, maybe if I got this positive feedback from other people that they think I'm worthwhile, then somehow maybe all this in my head will stop.”  I think people-pleasing for people with OCD can come from that place where they just have internalized years of abuse by their own mind that they feel like they can't escape until they find exposure and response prevention and work through all that. But even after that, they can still have this foundational belief that “I'm just not worth anything.” And that can drive a lot of people-pleasing behaviors that can linger even after somebody's gone through what would be considered a successful course in ERP. Kimberley: Yeah. That's really interesting. As you were talking, I was comparing and contrasting my eating disorder recovery. I was thinking about this this morning. My eating disorder didn't actually start with the wish to be thin. It started with pleasing other people. So, my body was changing and I was getting compliments for that. And then the compliments felt so good. It became like something I just wanted to keep getting, almost compulsively keep getting. And so then, it became, “How can I get more?” People-pleasing, people-pleasing. “Oh, they liked this body. Well, I'll try and get that body. Oh, they complimented me on how healthy my food was. Okay, I'll do that more in front of them.” So, it's interesting to compare and contrast. People-pleasing was the center point of my eating disorder and the starting point of my eating disorder. So, that's really interesting. You talked about people-pleasing behaviors. What do you think that is for you? What would that look like? Shala: People-pleasing behaviors can be big or small. It could be something like a friend calls you to go out to dinner. You don't really want to go out to dinner. You really want to sit in and watch your latest Netflix binge show, but you feel like you can't say no. So you go out to dinner. That could be something on the smaller end, I think. Then there's on the really large scale, which I've done, and I talk about in more detail in my memoirs, Is Fred in the Refrigerator? about my journey with OCD, which is not breaking up with somebody because you're afraid to hurt their feelings. And you can take that all the way down the aisle, which I did.  And so, I think that people-pleasing behaviors really can run the gamut from small seemingly innocuous things. “Oh, it's just an evening,” to life-changing decisions about your partner, about how you live your life, about where you live, about your work, about how you approach, all of that. And that I think makes people-pleasing sometimes hard to identify because it doesn't fit neatly in a little box. Kimberley: Yeah. That's interesting. And I love the way that you share that. What's interesting for me is that most of my people-pleasing in the past have been saying yes to things that I don't want to do or things I want to do, but I literally don't have time for. So I'm saying yes to everything without really consulting with my schedule and being like, “Can I actually fit that in on that day?” Just saying yes to everything, which I think for me is interesting. A lot of the listeners will remember, is I got so the burnt out and sick, because I'd said yes to everything six months ago. Because six months ago I agreed to all these things, now I'm on the floor, migraines or having nothing because I just said yes to everything. And so, for me, a lot of that, the turnaround has been practicing saying no to plan for the future, looking forward, going, “Will I have time for that? Do I want that? Does that work for me? Is that for my recovery?” How have you as either a clinician or a human started to practice turning the wheel on this problem? Shala: It's hard for me to think how to the answer to that because there are so many ways to approach it and it's a complex problem. And so, I have approached it in a number of ways. The first thing that comes to mind is really boundaries because a lot of this is about setting boundaries to protect your own time and to protect what you want to do. So, that's one of the things that I have really worked on, is becoming clear on what I think is acceptable for me to be doing and what is not acceptable for me to be doing in terms of my own physical and mental health. It's so easy to say yes to things, especially if it's months down the road, “Oh, that'll be fine, I'll have time to do that.” And then you get to, you're like, “Okay, I don't have time to do that.” And then you're wearing yourself out and all of that. And I think that happens a lot with people-pleasing because again, you're putting your own needs, especially for rest and recovery on the back burner in order to do things that you think will make somebody else happy.  And so, I think really working on boundary setting. So I'm coming from a perspective of having OCD and treating OCD. Boundary setting is an exposure. So, it is about creating an uncomfortable situation because it involves saying no. And if you say no, sometimes you're going to disappoint people. And if you're just getting into the process of saying no, and people are expecting that you're going to say yes because you say yes to everything, you can often get some pretty negative feedback. “What do you mean no? You've always said yes.” Kimberley: You're the “yes” girl. Shala: And so then, that feels even more jarring, like, “Oh, see, it's coming true. People don't like me.” And so, that becomes even more anxiety provoking and thus an even better exposure, but even harder. And I think that thinking of it as setting boundaries to protect your own times so that when you do say yes to something, you are there as fully as you can be because you're well-rested in terms of your body and your mind and your health and all of that. When you don't have good boundaries, you end up feeling very resentful because you haven't been able to take care of yourself. And so, in fact, by not setting good boundaries, you can't actually be there for people when they need you because you're too run down. And that is, I think, the big lie about these people-- one of the many big lies about this people-pleasing thing is that, “Well, I got to do all this to make people happy.” Well, in essence, you're not putting your own oxygen mask on first. And so, you can't. Even if there was something you really could do that would really help somebody else, you don't have enough energy to do it.  So, I think really realizing that boundaries are the way to not have that resentment, to allow you to be fully there with the things you do want to do with all your heart and energy. And so then, you are actually really achieving your goal because you can really help people, as opposed to saying yes to everything and you're spread so thin, you're not enjoying it, they're not enjoying it, and it's not achieving the goals that you had in mind. Kimberley: Yes. It's so exactly the point. So, boundaries is 100%, I agree. I'll tell you a story. You know this story, but the listeners might not. Once I did a podcast that got some negative feedback and I called you, understandably concerned about getting negative feedback, because I don't like-- I'm one of those humans that don't really love negative feedback. Shala: I'm one of those humans too. Kimberley: I had said to you, this is literally my worst fear. One of my worst fears is being called out and being told where you've made a mistake. What was really interesting for me is going through that and saying, “Okay, but I did, it is what it is. I wouldn't change anything. And here's what I believe.” I came out of that instead of going and apologizing and changing everything. I came out of that actually feeling quite steady in my stand because I had acknowledged like, “Oh, even when things don't go well, I can get through it. I can stand on my two feet. I can get through those,” which is something I hadn't ever really had to practice, is really standing through that. And I thought that that was a really interesting thing for me, is a lot of the reason I think I was people-pleasing was because the story I was telling myself was that I wouldn't be able to handle it if something went wrong, that I wouldn't be able to handle people knowing that I had made a mistake or so forth. But that wasn't true. In fact, all of a sudden it felt actually a bit of freedom for me of like, “Oh, okay. The jig is up. I can chill now.” Have you found that to be true of some people or am I rainbow and unicorn? Shala: I love that because I think it's like what we do with people with social anxiety. They are afraid of going out in public in certain situations and having somebody evaluate them negatively. And one of the things that we do with those exposures is actually, let's go out and create some of these situations that your social anxiety is afraid of. Let's go into a shopping mall in the food court and spill a Coke on the floor while everybody's looking at you. And then process through, what was that like? Well, I just stood there and they came and cleaned it up and everybody went back to their meal and we went on. Huh, okay. That wasn't as bad as I thought it was.  And I think that's very akin to what you're saying, is we build this up in our head that if we're rejected, if somebody doesn't like us, if we disappoint somebody, that's going to be catastrophic. And inevitably, it is going to happen unless you isolate yourself in your house, that somebody is not going to like you, somebody is going to give you a bad review, and being able to say, “Yup, that is okay. I don't have any control over that. And I can handle that. That doesn't devalue me as a person because they gave me a bad review or bad feedback or whatever.” Because if we think about what we each do, like I've bought products before that I've written bad reviews for because I didn't like it or it didn't work for me. I think everybody has. And even if you didn't write a review, you thought it in your head. So, all of us have things we like and don't like, and that's okay.  What you're talking about is you have those experiences and then you realize, “Wait, that is okay.” And then you feel free, like, “Okay, look at me. I can make mistakes.” You're less compelled. Continue doing this because you're like, “Wait, there's freedom on the other side of this where I don't have to try to be pleasing people all the time.” Kimberley: Right. Or in addition to that was-- and this is true in this example of, I think it was a podcast that I had put out, was people cannot like what I did but still like me in other areas. That blew me away. I think that in my mind it was so black and white. It's like, if they don't like one thing, they're going to knock you out, where it's like no. People can hold space for things they like and things they do like. Shala: That is such important. Kimberley: Right. You also just said something and I want you to speak to it, is some people people-please by going above and beyond, but you also just brought up the idea of some people just don't leave their house. What would that look like, because they're people-pleasers? Shala: Well, I think that is the extreme case of any kind of anxiety-driven disorder, where you're trying to avoid having to be in a situation where others have expectations of you that you feel that you can't meet, and so you narrow your world down to avoid those situations to avoid the anxiety. And I don't think that's just with people-pleasing. That's obviously what agoraphobia is about—people not leaving their homes because they're trying to avoid situations that are going to trigger panic attacks. But I think people with anxiety disorders in general can start making choices to avoid anxiety that end up not allowing them to lead the lives they want to lead or to take care of themselves. Kimberley: Yeah. I mean, I think that's the question for everybody, even for those who are listening, I would say. If you're thinking, “Oh, this doesn't apply to me,” it's always good to look like, “What am I avoiding because of the fear that I'll be disproved?” or someone will give you a bad review and so forth, because I think it shows up there quite often. Shala: Yes. And in fact, there is a really good article—maybe we can put a link in the show notes—that Adam Grant from Wharton Business School wrote in the New York Times about what straight A students get wrong. And I think it goes right to the heart of what we're talking about because he referenced people who are looking for straight A's, which is an institutionalized form of approval, will potentially take easier classes that they can get an A in versus something they really are interested that they might not do as well in. And so, they are not pursuing what's important to them because they're pursuing the A, and therefore head in a direction that maybe isn't the direction that would be best for them to have. Kimberley: Right. And you just hit the nail on the head because so much of recovery from people-pleasing is actually stopping and going, “Do I want this? Does this actually line up with my values? Am I doing it for other people?” I've heard many clients say, “I do what other people tell me to do and what they want because I actually have no idea of what I want.” That's scary in and of itself. Shala: And that is a really tough problem for people with anxiety disorders because when you have an anxiety disorder, you're used to doing what the disorder says and the disorder can really run your life. When you get better from the anxiety disorder, it's easy to keep doing the things that you were doing that didn't necessarily seem compulsive but may have been because they're just part of your life, without ever stopping to step back and say, “Well, do I need to be doing this?” I'll give you a personal example. I live in Atlanta and there's lots to do in Atlanta. I've lived here for a long time. I think I felt a need that I “should” be out and doing things because I live in a big city and there's so much to do and I need to be doing it. And so I'd have this story in my head that I need to be out and visiting attractions, the aquarium, the restaurants. We have this really cool food court called Ponce City Market. While those things are fun and I do enjoy going to them sometimes, it almost felt like I should do this because this is what people do. They're out and about and doing things, almost like I'm pleasing a societal norm, like this is what you do if you live in a big city.  Well, COVID actually has really helped me recognize, “You know what, I actually don't need to get up on Saturday morning and pack my schedule full of all sorts of things that I think I should be doing. I can actually just sit in my house and do things that I might want to do.” And so as you know, I've been doing all sorts of things lately just to try stuff out. I'm taking an oil painting class, which still scares me to death. And I'm taking French lessons because I want to learn how to speak French. And I've bought these art magazines because I really like art and I just want to look at it. And I'm just letting myself explore these various things to find out what I do like. And then once I've been through this process and find what really floats my boat, then maybe hey, one weekend I can go to the aquarium because I want to, because it meets some value or need I have and do some painting instead of trying to meet this idea of what I should be doing that's trying to please society and what my role in society should be, which I think is very easy for people with anxiety disorders and OCD to do, is let other people make the rules, the disorder, your family, your spouse, the society in general, as opposed to just sitting back and saying, “What do I really want?” And the answer to that might be, “I don't know.” And instead of rushing out to do something because it feels better to just be doing something than to sit with the uncertainty of “I don't know,” letting yourself sit in that and go, “Well, what can I maybe try to see if I like it?” Kimberley: Right. And I will add to that because you and I have talked quite a bit and I've learnt so many inspiring things from you as I've watched you do this. What was interesting for me is, a part of that for me was choosing things that people don't actually like. Some of the choices I've made–things I want to do with my time or that I've said no to–do disappoint people. They do disappoint people and they might tell you you've disappointed them. And so, for me, it's holding space for that feeling, the shame or the guilt or the sadness or whatever the emotion is, but still choosing to do the thing you wanted to do. It's not one or the other. You don't do things just because you haven't disappointed someone. You can also choose to do something in the face of disappointing other people, right? Shala: Yes. And I think it's inevitable. You're going to disappoint them. Kimberley: It sucks so bad. Shala: Because you're not going to have the same wants and needs as everybody else. And so, it's inevitable that if you start figuring out what you want to do and trying some things out, you can't do all the other things everybody else wants you to do. Kimberley: Yeah. I know. And it's so frustrating to recognize that. But as you've said before, tens of thousands of people could love a product and tens of thousands of people could hate a product. Lots of people will like me and lots of people won't like me or the things that we do or the places we want to go and so forth. I think that's a hard truth to swallow, that we won't please all the people. Shala: Yeah. And I'll tell you a story that I think illustrates that, is I read this book for a small book club that I'm in, and one of the members had suggested it. I just went and grabbed it, bought it. I didn't really read what kind of book it was. And I was loving it. It was really good. It was like this mystery novel. And then we get to the last, I don't know, 20 pages. And it turns into this psychological thriller that honestly scares the pants off me, but it was wrapped up so well. I was just sitting in shock on the floor, reading this thing, like, “Oh my gosh.” It was so good, yet so terrifying. So I got online on Amazon just to look at the book because it had just gone right over my head that this was a thriller, and I don't normally read thrillers. I just wanted to go on and see. And I was expecting, because I loved this thing, to see five-star reviews across Amazon for this book because I thought it was so amazing. And I got on, and the reviews for it were maybe three point something stars. I started reading and some people went, “I hated this. It was horrible.” They hated it as much as I loved it. And that to me was just a singular example of you cannot please everyone. I love this book, other people hate this book. There were lots of people that were in between. And that doesn't say anything about the writer. The writer is a whole complete awesome person, regardless of what any of us think about what she wrote. Kimberley: Right. And she gets to write what she wants to write, and we get to have our opinions. And that's the way the world turns. Shala: And I think recognizing she doesn't have any control over what I think, I might even write a five-star review just for whatever reason and really hate the book. So, even if you get a positive review, you don't actually know that it's true. I think this is all about understanding that it's not about not caring about what people think because that's really hard. It just numbs you out and cuts you off. I think it's about going into the middle. It's not about people-pleasing. It's not about not caring. It's about recognizing you don't have control over any of that and living in that uncertainty. I don't know what people think. I don't have control over what people think. And even if they tell me one thing, that could actually not be what they think at all. And that's okay. Kimberley: Right. Such an amazing point. I'm so glad you brought that up because I actually remember many years ago saying to my husband, “I've decided I don't care what people think.” Well, that lasted about 12 and a half seconds because I deeply care what people think. But it doesn't mean that what they think makes my decisions. And I think that's where the differentiation is. A lot of the people who are listening, there's absolutely no way on this world they could find a way to not care and not want to please people. It's innate in our biology to want to please people. However, it gets to the point where, is it working for you? Are you feeling fulfilled? Are you resentful? These are questions I would ask. Are you fulfilled? Are you resentful? Are you exhausted? What other questions would you maybe ask people to help them differentiate here or to find a way out? Shala: Am I really enjoying this? Do I really want to do this? Why am I doing this? Kimberley: Yeah. What emotion am I trying to avoid? What would I have to feel if I made my own choice? Yeah. There's some questions I would have people to consider. Okay. So, one more question. You make a choice based on what you want. You do or you don't please people. Let's say for the hell of it you dissatisfy somebody. What do you do with that experience? Shala: First, I think you recognize. You go into this, recognizing that is almost certainly going to happen. There are very few certainties in life. That's probably one of [35:11 inaudible]. Kimberley: You will disappoint people. Shala: Yeah. You're going to disappoint people. And then I think really going to a place of self-compassion. And I'm going to turn it back over to you because you just published an amazing, amazing book that I cannot recommend enough about self-compassion in the treatment of OCD with exposure and response prevention. And I'd love to hear what you think about how you could incorporate self-compassion into this, especially when you do disappoint somebody because I think that's so important.  Kimberley: Yeah, no, I love that you swing at my way. I think the first thing is to recognize that one of the core components of self-compassion is common humanity, which is recognizing that we're all in this together, that I'm just a human being. And human beings aren't ever going to be perfect. Only in our minds that we create the story that we were going to be. So, a lot of self-compassion is that common humanity of, I am a human, humans make mistakes, humans get to do what they need to do and want to do and that we're not here to please people, and that our worth is not dependent on people enjoying and agreeing with us. And I think that's a huge reason that my people, like you've said, people-please is they're constantly trying to prove to themselves their worth. So, I would recognize first the common humanity.  And then the other piece is it hurts when you disappoint someone. And so, I think it's being tender with whatever emotion that shows up—sadness, loss, anger, frustration, fear. A lot of it is fear of abandonment. So I would really tend to those emotions gently and talk to them gently like, “Okay, I notice sadness is here. It makes complete sense that I'm feeling sad. How can I tend to you without pushing you away?” Again, I think sometimes-- I've seen this a lot in my daughter's school. I've seen this sometimes, the school has said, “When you're feeling bad about yourself, just tell yourself how good you are.” And I'm like, that's really positive, but it actually doesn't tend to their pain at all. It skips over it and makes it positive.  So I think a big piece of this is to just hold tender your discomfort and find support in like-minded people who want what you want and who are willing to show up. You and I have said before the Brené Brown quote like, “Only take advice from people who are in the ring with you.” And that has been huge for me, is finding support from people who are doing scary things alongside me. Do you have any thoughts?  Shala: Yeah. I think the more that you do this, the more that you're willing to take care of yourself, because I really do think working on people-pleasing is learning how to take care of you. And that's so important. And the more that you will do that and go through these very hard exercises of saying no and disappointing people, and then compassionately holding yourself and saying, “It's okay,” like using the common humanity, recognizing we're all in this together. Everybody feels like this sometimes. I think the more you do it, then you start to disconnect your worth from other people's views. And that is where a whole new level of freedom is available to us.  I think that sometimes people-pleasing, because it can be so subtle, isn't necessarily addressed directly in therapy for anxiety disorder. Sometimes it is when it's really over. But a lot of times it's not, and that's not the fault of the therapist or the client or anything. It's just, it's so subtle. We don't even realize we're doing it. And so, we finish therapy for anxiety disorders, we feel a lot better, but there's still a lot of this “should” and “have to,” societal expectations or expectations of other people, which we feel we're driving our life and we don't have any control over. And really working on this allows you to recognize that you are a whole good, wonderful person on your own, whether or not other people are pleased with you or not. But that takes a lot of consistent work, big and small, before you can start to see that your worth and other people's thoughts about you are two separa