Podcasts about Gosh

Gosh, don't you hate these people, who only talk about themselves! And you know exactly who I'm talking about right?! The people who don't let you get a word in, the people who are always one upping everyone, and showing off. Humble people are sexy! And hard to find. People who don't take themselves so serious.

As you will hear in this episode, Kristin Smedley grew up and lived her first thirty years or so as a list-maker and planner. She literally planned everything and she was successful at it. Well, she was until literally one day everything changed. In January 2000 she gave birth to her first son, Michael. When he was eight months old she asked a nurse friend/Michael's babysitter about the fact that Michael's eyes seemed not to be focused when he was lying on his back. After examinations, she got the news that Michael was blind. All the plans she had for herself and him “crashed to the floor”.   We get to hear Kristin's story with not one blind son, but a second one, Mitch who was born two years later. Kristin will tell you that she refused to adopt the attitude that these two blind kids could not grow up and do anything. She will tell us how both sons played baseball in grammar school. You will hear how Kristin's incredible positive attitude about blindness helped her family discover and learn that blindness does not hold people back.     About the Guest:   Kristin Smedley is Co-Founder and CEO of the only patient organization in the world for people living with the blindness her two sons are affected by, CRB1 LCA/RP. The Curing Retinal Blindness Foundation has raised over 4 million dollars and achieved a National Rare Eye Disease Awareness Day.  That legislation, H.R. #625, was the first in US history to be submitted in Braille and it advocates for better resources for blind and visually impaired Americans. Kristin partnered with Spark Therapeutics to help achieve the first ever FDA approved gene therapy to treat an inherited retinal disease in the United States. She has done a TEDx Talk in New York City to change perceptions of blindness and she partnered with Comcast media to spread awareness of the inclusive X1 product. Kristin is author of the bestselling book Thriving Blind: Stories of Real People Succeeding Without Sight and a new children's book, What I Can Be Is Up To Me. Kristin co-founded ThrivingBlindAcademy.org to solve the employment, literacy, and financial crisis in the blind community.  She is Co-Creator of the short film, The Great Equalizer, that addresses the unemployment crisis of the blind.     Ways to connect with Kristin:   Linked In https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristinsmedley/ Twitter https://twitter.com/KristinSmedley Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thrivingblind Instagram https://www.instagram.com/kristinsmedley/   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. I'm really looking forward to our guest today Kristin Smedley because she has two sons who are blind, I'm not prejudiced or anything like that, of course, but nevertheless, yeah. Nevertheless, she's got some interesting stories to tell. And she has been involved in doing a variety of things, including influencing Washington dealing with forming organizations, and we're gonna get into all that. So I will not talk anymore. But Kristen, let's just start with you. Welcome to unstoppable mindset. Oh,   Kristin Smedley ** 01:55 thanks so much for having me. I'm I'm a big fan of yours. And I'm happy to be here and chat. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:03 thanks for for coming on. Well, tell us a little bit about you first, Gordon growing up the early Christian Christian as it were.   Kristin Smedley ** 02:14 The early Christian all those years ago, law I O in   Michael Hingson ** 02:18 a galaxy far far away.   Kristin Smedley ** 02:21 I am a born and raised Philly girl. I have my fillies hat on for those that are watching this on video. And I was one of those kids, Michael that I went for a lot of stuff I had success. In almost every area of my life. I was raised by parents in I'm learning as an adult that I was raised in unconditional love. And I believe I've said it a lot that I believe that's what sets us up with a foundation to thrive. So I had a good support system to get out there and try stuff and go after dreams and, and I was sports school. I mean, you name it. I had a great time with it. But I will above I will admit that above all things I was a I was a planner, you know, and a list maker and a check it off the list, kind of person. So I really liked making plans, achieving them celebrating and going on to the next thing. I've I've played soccer my whole life. I still play actually, I'm going to be 52 And just last year, I perfected my left foot kick. So I figure you know, I'm a quick study, right.   Michael Hingson ** 03:38 But But you weren't invited to New Zealand for the World Cup this year. Hmm.   Kristin Smedley ** 03:42 Weird, right. And I was just looking at the at the pay rate of the top 10 Women's players and and I wasn't on there and I'm nowhere near that pay rate. So what's that about? Yeah, really. I've been playing longer than them.   Michael Hingson ** 03:53 So they're I don't know how to count for something.   Kristin Smedley ** 03:56 But yeah, I was very I was competitive and and love sports. And you know, being a Philly person. I don't know many people in our town that aren't Philly sports people. But I had a good time. I have four brothers, it was a crazy house. Very big family, lots of cousins. And, you know, just a typical, typical kind of kid growing up with dreams to be a teacher achieved all of that. And nothing, nothing really nothing really derailed plans at all until it did. Well.   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 And then it wasn't so much derailed. But it also goes to show that sometimes plans need to change. So along the way you you got a husband or whatever and, and did all that sort of stuff. I assume   Kristin Smedley ** 04:46 I did all the things that that everybody did. Right. And I mean, back then it was I mean like I said I'm going to be 52 Back then there wasn't a whole lot of of options. that that girls like me grew up with as as careers. My family was like there was absolutely no way that there was a future in soccer or sports for women back then. But I was I knew I was going to be a teacher from the time I was five years old. I am one of those bizarre people that just knew it from when I was very young. I would I would set up my my four brothers. In my dad's workshop at the back of our basement. He had this chalkboard and I would bring home the extra handouts from teachers at school and I would I would have my know why my brothers sat and did that. With me. I'd hand stuff out and I have them writing on the board.   Michael Hingson ** 05:40 They tolerated you.   Kristin Smedley ** 05:42 They sure did tolerate that's a great word, because they're still doing that.   Michael Hingson ** 05:46 I'm just gonna ask you if they still do that. They still tolerate   Kristin Smedley ** 05:49 me. They don't sit and let me hit him. They don't sell them handouts anymore lectures   Michael Hingson ** 05:52 anymore. Yeah, well, what so what did you teach? When you when you grew up and started teaching?   Kristin Smedley ** 05:58 I was an elementary school teacher.   Michael Hingson ** 06:01 Yes, it was my wife. I   Kristin Smedley ** 06:03 loved it. I just my whole life. I wanted to do that. And then when I was in the classroom, oh, boy, did I have a good time with that?   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 What? What grade did you want to teach? Or what grade did you find? Was your favorite grade?   Kristin Smedley ** 06:21 Well, that's it Sure. I will say first. And third, I never would have thought when I was when I was planning to be a teacher. I thought second grade was where it was that like that was where I really wanted to land. And I remember student teaching first grade, and I the first week. I remember coming coming back to the house, I lived in with a bunch of my friends at college. And they were like, they thought I had caught like a massive flu or something that I was exhausted my exhausted five days with first graders. And I said, I remember saying to my roommates, you even have to include in your directions not to eat the paste. To be very specific with first graders, but I love the fact that that first graders, just they kind of believe what you tell them. You know, they haven't really formed their their own individual personality. Some of them have, but most of them are along for a really fun ride, you know, third grade, though, they start developing their own personalities and the things that they they know that they want to do. But you're still cool. Third graders still think that teachers are cool. Fourth grade, they start to go maybe not. So I wanted to stay. I wanted to stay in the cool zone. My   Michael Hingson ** 07:42 wife loves third grade, she thought that that was the best grade to teach. Definitely the earlier grades. But she loved third grade the best because as you said, kids started to develop a personality, but you could affect it. You could teach them they would listen. But when you got beyond that, especially when you got to sixth and seventh grade, much less high school, of course, that got to be a real challenge. Oh,   Kristin Smedley ** 08:06 yeah. Oh, yeah. I have one of my best friends. We actually met at college orientation. She's taught middle school science for her whole career. And I'm like, Man, are we different? I couldn't I could not. I wouldn't accomplish anything with middle schoolers, but first and third grade. I'm your girl. That was a good time. I   Michael Hingson ** 08:28 suppose the idea of middle school science, though, is if you do interesting experiments, and you do things that they don't expect that is because they haven't really learned about a lot of that stuff. You can sort of keep their interest.   Kristin Smedley ** 08:43 Yeah, you know what, that's a that's a really good point. Because Stacy has kept it, she think makes things incredibly interesting. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, she I've there's been times we've been sitting in and hanging out drinking wine, and she'll start showing me this, this PowerPoint of like, scientific stuff. And I'm like, and she's so into it. I'm thinking, okay, now I get it. I know why. No, I think kids were into it for all those years. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 09:11 But she's got the knack of being able to make it interesting for the kids. And of course, that's the issue. Right. Right. Right. And you're still teaching third grade in as you said, the cool zone. So that helps a lot. But you know, I, I know what you're saying. I remember. Oh, gosh, now it's been about 18 years ago, I was doing a talk in San Francisco. And I went to the school it was an elementary school K through six and the whole the whole school was there was an assembly and the teacher said Now look, you can't talk more than 15 minutes they will not sit and listen to you. Now we're sitting there going, just wait So of course, I come out with my guide, dog Roselle. If that isn't going to keep kids interested, give me a break. So like about 40 minutes after we started talking all about dogs and I talked a little bit about the World Trade Center, of course. But it was mostly what the dog did and how guide dogs work. And they all sat there and rapt attention. Then I finally opened the door to questions. And as I tell people, there's no question that anyone can ask me today that's off limits, because this third grade kid gets up a guy, right, a boy. And his question was, how do blind people have six? Oh, my God. And so, you know, no questions off limits? Well, I'm not dumb. I just said the same way everybody else does. And if you want to know more, you go ask your parents. You know, I'm not an idiot. But but you know, there's no question off limits. I've remembered that story ever since. But then the teachers came up afterwards. And they said, We don't know how you did it. And I said, it's the dog. And it's talking about the dog. And even the sixth graders were all interested. And, of course, everybody wanted to come and talk to the dog. So after it was over, I said at the end that if anybody wants to come up and visit with the puppy dog, they are welcome to do that. I knew Roselle very well. Roselle was one of those dogs who had discovered the scientific principle of maximum petting area, she would lay down on the floor and stretch out every appendage as far as she could to get as many people petting her at one time as and she loved it sweet. And, and all of my guide dogs have been that way. They and I wouldn't want it any other way. You know, the harness was off, and they just all love it. And the teachers kept an eye on things, but still, everyone got to come up and spend some time with Rosella. And she thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sliced bread too, but you know. But yeah, third graders, my wife always loved third graders and, and we've talked about it a lot. My teaching was at the high school level, I got a secondary teaching credential ended up going into other jobs. But I have my secondary teaching credential and, and taught, and I've actually had kids from my classes come up to me like 10 years later, and say, Do you remember me? And the voices of well, of course, all change. And I don't know, well, like one guy. I'm Marty, I was an eighth grader in your algebra one class in high school. And I remember coming into class and talking with you and solving problems with you. And Marty was actually, one day asked me a question, and I didn't know the answer. I just didn't happen to remember it. And I said, I'll go find out the answer, but I don't know it. And then the next day, I came in with the answer, but Marty did as well. And I said, alright, you come up and write it on the board. My master teacher said, That was incredibly smart, you did the best thing you could do, because these kids will know if you're blowing smoke. The fact that you said that you didn't know, scored you so many points. And that's really true. And it's I think is true today, and anything that we do, rather than bluffing your way through. It's better to be honest. I   Kristin Smedley ** 13:23 totally agree. And kids can, they can definitely. They can definitely tell. So every time Oh, yeah. No   Michael Hingson ** 13:33 doubt about it every single time they can tell those things. Well, so you taught and how long did you teach? A   Kristin Smedley ** 13:41 few years. And then I at the time I was married, we moved to Chicago. And that was after an extremely challenging third grade year was a great group of kids. But one of the remember at the end of that year, saying if I could survive that year, I can survive anything. I never should have said that out loud, because then all kinds of things happened. But I ended up going which was pretty cool. I want to take a break from the classroom for a little bit and was working with the Department of Ed and this is how old I am now that was back when we would go in and teach teachers and principals how to use technology in the classroom.   Michael Hingson ** 14:26 You're probably a lot of them will still need that but I hear you   Kristin Smedley ** 14:28 oh yeah, we actually organized big educational conferences and and it's funny how my life has gone because I said I always I had planned to be a teacher always wanted to be a teacher stayed in the teaching profession. But then as I watch everything that unfolded like those, planning those conferences and working with teams that were were in house and remote like it's all the things I'm doing now. All of those experiences gave me gave me experience As in being able to do the stuff I do now. So I always say to people, you know, when when, you know, when when you seem to have a roadblock, or are taking a different path for a little while, or maybe making a right turn where you thought you're going straight pay attention, because because every experience gives you tools for stuff that's coming later. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 and the, I think most successful people are the ones who realize that, and who can actually trace back and remember when they learned those tools and what they learned, I know that I believe our lives are really comprised of all the choices that we make. And all too often we forget the choices we make. And I think it's important. And I worked very hard at remembering what led me to where I am. And it doesn't mean that it was bad. Even if it didn't turn out the way I expected to. There's still things you'll learn along the way. Yeah,   Kristin Smedley ** 15:56 you know, I'll even take that a step further and say, I'm realizing now like, like, literally, within the past seven, eight months, when, when a sidestep or something or setback happens, I now pay attention in the moments of new things that I need to learn new perspectives that I need to have my eyes open to, like, instead of waiting until later, like I always did. Now I'm actually on the one of my friends, Chip Baker says, grow through your go through. So when you're going through something, what is what are all the growth opportunities that you can have your eyes open to and I'm telling you, it makes it makes it not that it takes struggle away or stress away, but it makes it a heck of a lot easier.   Michael Hingson ** 16:43 It does. Because everything that you do is a learning experience, no matter whether you think you learned something or not. You did. And, and just we don't pay nearly as much attention to that, which is not not really the way it ought to be. I love that go through your growth. grow through your go through. Yeah, tongue twister, but still. Well, so you've referred to it a whole bunch of times. So things sort of started to make you deviate and you had sudden unexpected changes. Tell us about some of that, if you would. Yeah,   Kristin Smedley ** 17:21 you know, I was at a point in my life where the Christian in the year 2000, I can tell you that Christian of 2023, I'm not sure that they would be friends. Because Christian back then had. I mean, like I said, I had planned, I had planned to be a teacher, I plan to be successful, I plan to get married everything I accomplished everything I had, you know, gotten the degree landed the job, married the guy at the got the big house, bought the brand new SUV. And, and my final not necessarily final dream, but my biggest dream of all was finally coming to fruition to fruition. And that was becoming a mom. And I have to tell you, Michael, I had an incredible Mom, I have I have a wonderful role model for mom and my grandmother, her mom was wonderful. And I was surrounded by a lot of people that were really good moms. And I of course, being competitive, couldn't wait to be a mom and do even better, right? Like I was even going to be even better than all of them. And, you know, most people they find out they're pregnant, and they're like, I just want a healthy baby. Right? And then and that's what I did. And then by when you're me by like month eight, it's Oh, is he going to be a pitcher for the Phillies or quarterback for the Eagles? Right? And is he? You know, will college really go to and and you know, you're envisioning all of the things. And when he was born, he was Michael was born in January of 2000. And on our street. Now, if you remember back then it was y2k was happening. And this was January, like we survived the computers, right. But there was I didn't even realize it at the time. There were so many people trying to have a y2k baby. So, on my street in January, there was like, eight people had babies within eight days of each other. It was crazy. Crazy. So everyone was in the hoopla of new babies and and, you know, the hospital stays and we would all be we weren't necessarily outside in Chicago in January, but we'd be in each other's Kitchens talking about all the things and that book, What to Expect When You're Expecting we knew every line of every page and, and all that stuff and talked about everything. And then I started noticing something about Michael was different from the other kids and I had gone back to work and had him a friend of mine who's a nurse was babysitting him every day. And I said to her Is it weird that When, when you lay him down on his back, his eyes swirl around and disappear. And she said, yeah, it is weird. You need to have that checked out. And after a few weeks of of no answers, and lots and lots and lots of tests, we finally flew home to Philly, and got an appointment with a specialist at Children's Hospital Philadelphia. And that's where that's where I heard a sentence that I had not planned for. And that's when he said to me, Kristen, your son is blind. And, you know, the planner in me that was not in the plans like valedictorian, summa cum laude, you know, professional athlete, those were the plans. And in that moment, I gotta tell you this, this, I can say it now I was embarrassed about this for years, but since my kids are successful, and I, I turned out, okay, I can tell you my first question to that doctor was like, I was trying to consider how blind I didn't understand blindness, right. And I said, Willie, play baseball. Can you imagine that? That doctor probably tells that story at parties all the time. at conferences with other ophthalmologist right was the dumbest question you ever heard? Yeah, I was. I said, Well, we play baseball. I was trying to get it in my mind. I just had an absolutely zero knowledge of blindness. And the doctor, of course, said no, he's not going to play baseball. And it was like everything. Willie drive. Now, will you go to school? Probably Probably not a regular school, all the things. And I said, Oh, my gosh, well, what is he going to do? And the doctor said, I have no idea but good luck. Now, oh, that was nice. Right? You know, and I, I'm like, Well, that was 23 years ago when that happened. But it's still happening. Doctors are still saying, Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I have one of my friends that has choroideremia. He says, doctors are saying, Go home go blind. We got nothing for you. So we can get into that later. But well, we can because   Michael Hingson ** 22:00 it's absolutely worth doing. Doctors still believe that if they can't save your eyesight, they're failures. ophthalmology, schools don't teach the eyesight really isn't the only game in town, which doesn't mean you don't try to save eyesight. But eyesight is not the only game in town. And we don't deal with that nearly enough.   Kristin Smedley ** 22:18 Yeah, yeah, that was I've, I've often talked with, with folks about the fact that you know that there's that first do no harm for doctors. And I think it is, it is more than harmful to not send a family on their way with some kind of resources or, or one resource. that's ultimately why I ended up writing my first book, I'm like, if no one's handing over, if there's no resource to hand them, we're going to make a resource to hand over. But yeah, that's where I started. And I was actually just talking with somebody yesterday about this concept in terms of parenting, I believe now, when I heard those words, and you know, heard good luck, I literally crashed to the floor and all of my dreams had crashed to the floor. And I had no education, knowledge experience with blindness. I will say, I think the greatest thing that happened to me in my life, was that all of my dreams for my kids crash to the floor. Because when I'm noticing even even myself, I do have a sighted daughter also. With kids, I'm I'm seeing our biggest struggles, their biggest struggles and stress come from, they're walking away around with carrying the weight of their own dreams and ambition. But they also have ours on top of them and I one of the greatest things that ever happened to me and my kids was that everything that I had planned for them was eliminated because I didn't think it was possible and I had to I had to literally just I said to the boys I'm gonna I'm gonna get you what you need and follow your lead because I have no idea where this is going. Thank God thank God it wasn't there wasn't anything that I had intended for them that they went after at because that would have been such a limited life when I looked back on their on their where they're at now. So   Michael Hingson ** 24:17 what caused Michaels blindness.   Kristin Smedley ** 24:21 So we will find out later that the umbrella disease it's a it's an early retinitis pigmentosa it's Leber's congenital amaurosis, and we didn't find I didn't find out until oh nine that it's the CRB one gene causing it. Okay. Yeah. So and with with each pregnancy now for all the math minds out there you'll love this part and everyone else just hang in there because I don't talk about math all that long. I do have lip gloss on so I don't do math and statistics when I wear lip gloss. It's a rule that I have, but To the with CRB one LCA, there's a 25% chance with each pregnancy that the child will be affected. Now, optimistic Kristin, which people have said that my my memoir could be titled delirious optimist, heard 25% chance and stop listening. So I was like, well, I already you know, one in four babies, I already had one. So we're good, you know. And then I remember one of the specialists was like no Christian with each pregnancy. So it took it took me a while to get my head around how I was going to raise Michael. But I have to say ultimately, and and I believe the statistics are still that most LCA families there's I think 30 genes now identified in LCA. But most LCA families, once they have that baby, the LCA child, they don't have any after that. Because most people don't want to hear a second diagnosis or don't want to experience a second diagnosis. I was quite optimistic. But when I was really weighing all of it, to be honest, I thought, I started interviewing people, I'm a little bit of a nerd like that, like, I want to have as much information as I possibly can. And I talk to everybody that I possibly can. And I went and talked to people that I knew that were only children, because I couldn't get my mind. I couldn't get my head around blindness, but I could not get my head around an only child. And heard pros and cons of it and everything. And I thought ultimately, I would have a harder time raising a child that was a single child, then raising a child that couldn't see I figured I could figure out blindness much faster and better than I could figure out how to have a an only child. It just I guess it was just, you know, I was what 28 At that time and, and my experience had just been a big family was all I knew. And gosh, we I mean, it was crazy. But boy, did we have a heck of a lot of fun with cousins and everything. So you know, ultimately, I just I was like, let's let's go for it. And I was like, come on, what are the chances really? Like, I'm always in that 75% camp. I'm always on the better end of statistics, right? Oh, my goodness. And then and then. A family member always says with a very cynical tone that we hit the lottery twice, because Mitchell was diagnosed with CRB one LCA also. But I will say that I do say we hit the lottery. Three times, all three of my kids are extraordinary human beings. And I can't even imagine if if it was if I had an only child, I mean, I love Michael. He's great. But the dynamics of what all three of them have brought to my world are just incredible. And they're all different. Oh, boy, are they all different? The one retina specialist in Boston said after a day of testing, he goes Chris to any experience the boys for the day. He said they are different down to their retinas. Even the retinas aren't the same all.   Michael Hingson ** 28:19 So now we measure a difference by our retinas. Okay, and works. You know, but going back to what we talked about earlier, the whole issue of how the medical profession deals with it. It is so frustrating. I mean, you, you read the underdog. I read that years ago. Yeah. So you, you read my story. And the doctors told my parents that they should just send me to a home because no child who is blind could ever amount to anything. And my parents said no. And we we went from there, I don't know, never really talked about their fears. But I think if I had asked my parents tell me about your fears, they would have said no, we just assumed you would grow up to do whatever you chose to do. I think the fears were, were there in one way or another. But they just felt that. So all right, you're blind. We'll deal with it. And they were risk takers by any standard. But I don't even think they would classify themselves as risk takers. They were very unusual in the way they approached it, but they did. And the fact is that I got to grow up and do the things I wanted to do. And I always wanted to teach, but I ever ended up actually doing teaching in the classroom past student teaching. But I learned along the way that when I was confronted with a situation where I would either lose a job or go from doing scientific human factor studies into sales and chose to, as I love to say lower my standards and go from side It's the sales that in reality, UI though, in reality sales is if you do it, right, more teaching than anything else in the world, it's all about teaching. And it's all about helping people understand. But it's also because of that, about listening. And it's, it's important to do all of that. But the fact is that blind kids have as much opportunity to grow, or should have as much opportunity to grow and be whatever they choose, as anyone else. And part of the burden that we face is the prejudice that everyone has about blindness.   Kristin Smedley ** 30:39 You know what that that's, that's, oh, my gosh, I'm taking a deep breath, because it is so frustrating to me that in this day and age, that that bias is still there with with all of the you know, you feel like you do all this advocacy and your stories out there. And my social media platforms are huge. And there's all these other stories out there, and people still have no idea I just did an event here in in my town where my boys have grown up and done all kinds of things. And we are I mean, you're, you're kinda it's hard to not be famous in a small town when you got two blind kids. I mean, everybody knows who we are, everyone has seen all the stuff that they do. And I did an event with a short film that I just co created about the bias against blindness, and hiring people that are blind. And after the film, people that have watched, I mean, elected officials that I know very well, incredibly smart, successful. People were coming up to me saying, Oh, my gosh, I had no idea that blank, people could do all the things and I recite, but you you had two examples in front of you for two decades. How is that possible? I guess they figured my kids were some anomaly or I was constantly opening doors for them. I don't know. But they were blown away. And I was, it was a weird, I don't know what the word is for it. I have to have to go into chat GPT to give me some words for this. But it's it was like angry and happy at the same time. They're not angry, astonished. Yeah. And happy at the same time that the 20 Minute. Video got through to them. But I thought how could you not know. But that's that is how it is?   Michael Hingson ** 32:22 Well, you know, and I joined the National Federation of the Blind in 1972. It's a consumer organization, I'm sure you've heard of it. And it does a lot of things. But even with a lot of blind consumers, who have adopted a philosophy that blindness isn't the problem, we are not having a lot of success, at changing people's attitudes, not nearly the success that we have to have, in order to truly make it possible for us to have the same opportunities as everyone else. And the consumer organizations can help they do help. The National Federation of the Blind, and its legal efforts, changed the insurance industry so that blind people could buy insurance, you know, back in the 1980s, no blind or other person with a disability, physical disability could buy insurance because the insurance industry said you have a higher mortality rate, you're a higher risk. And wow happened was that somebody came along and said, You do everything based on scientific data and evidence, Where's the proof? And they said, Well, we have it, but they could never produce it because it didn't really exist. It was all based on prejudice. So by around 1985, legislation had been passed in every state saying you can't discriminate unless you got the proof. But the fact is, it was still there. There's still the attitudes and even that didn't deal with it. And I think part of the if I were to say one thing that doesn't happen that needs to really make a difference is we've got to become more part of the conversation, the whole human dialogue. And we're just not even some of the so called Disability experts. Don't push enough. We need to be in the conversation a lot more. Oh,   Kristin Smedley ** 34:14 I 100% agree and and we also need to be in every facet of life that sighted people are in right I think that's why I'm so passionate with, with stories with with, especially the children's book that I just put out and film and Hollywood, I tell you this, I put a post on Twitter, or x, whatever it's called these days. Yeah, I'm just gonna go with Twitter. Another story. Oh, my. Anyway, I put a post about my son Mitch, who's home for the summer from college. In our home, we are addicted to the show suits. I don't know if you follow that show.   Michael Hingson ** 34:56 I don't I've heard of it. I gotta watch it.   Kristin Smedley ** 34:58 I gotta Oh my gosh, one Now it's on. It's on Netflix. And we're we're rewatching the whole series. We watched it through COVID. And now we're rewatching it and it is I mean, it's attorneys and it's it's egos and it's just great. We love it. And we all have our favorite characters will Mitchell who just turned 20 years old, literally bounced, like jumped out of his stool. He sits on this little this funny little stool, the cracks, we have this big, tall 20 year old with an attitude right sits on this little stool in front of this giant TV and is glued to the show, jumps off the stool and bounces into the kitchen yelling mom. Netflix put audio description on suits. Yeah, he you would have thought that he just got like his the the bike he always wanted for Christmas, you know, like he was so excited. So I put a post out on Twitter that said, Oh my gosh, that feeling when your son bounces in the room and I put a thing about how him announcing that Netflix, put audio description on suits. And I said, Thank you so much Netflix, for being inclusive, whatever. I did a hashtag that the suits, I didn't realize how passionate the suits community is about that hashtag. It is now I think it's at 7000 people it's reached, people went crazy. We didn't know that was a thing. Oh my gosh, tell us more. What is audio description. And then um, that was like this teachable moment. But people have absolutely no idea that something like that is out there. But it also, you know, it went back to my point of when people that are blind are involved in all facets of life. That's when the education really starts to spread. And that's when perspectives are shifted. And that's when I see the bias disappear. I mean, my when my boys oh my gosh, I will never actually I'm writing the screenplay now for the moment. And I just wrote out the moment, the scene that we experienced when Michael told me, he wanted to play Little League baseball in our town when he was nine. I mean, he was playing blind baseball in the city. And but he was going to public school. And he wanted in on those lunchtime conversations where all the kids are screaming at each other of whose team cheated in which arm sock and all that stuff, right? And he's like, I want to play baseball, I said you do play baseball. And he's like, No, I want to play baseball here in this league where all my friends play. And when I walked up on registration day to baseball registration. When I talk about this, I should actually have like a button I hit with music that's like, you know, it's more than Disney World and all these happy cheering people that are there for registration. And Michael walked in with his white cane and said he wanted to play baseball. And as grouchy and grumpy as the Commissioner is of a person, I will give them the credit that he did give it some thought and long story short, Michael ended up on a baseball team. And in his second year, they won the championship like they were the worst team in the league and came back and won the championship and, and he was an all star and led the team in RBIs. And there was a dad that I knew was not happy. Michael was on that team at the first practice that came up to me after that championship when and he said, he said Kristen, you know, when all of our kids started this season, and came together, they were all just a bunch of spoiled kids to get everything they want. And he said one by one, your son changed all of them. And that changed all of us and watching him has been phenomenal. And I thought that's what it is. It's it's when it's when we're out in the world in all facets of life, doing life, that we change those perceptions and those biases. So so I want people that are blind and visually impaired and their parents and everybody around them, get out there in the world. And like you said, be in the conversations be in the experiences. And if we can, if we can multiply that then I think that we can really get rid of this bias a lot faster.   Michael Hingson ** 39:11 So how did Michael play baseball? Well, interesting.   Kristin Smedley ** 39:14 Now I'm in so many conversations, you know, in the ENI stuff and workplaces and we keep saying reasonable accommodation. I'm like what I didn't know it was what we were I was asking at the time, but it was reasonable accommodations I we weren't changing rules. We didn't change much. But he was able to hit off a tee now this is 910 11 year olds, they were they were kid pitching hit off a tee. And he played in the outfield with another with another guy. That guy would feel the ball and Michael had to throw it in to where the play was okay. Then I I've actually spoken at some sports stuff. And you know on the topic of parents and and sports I say I always say listen for coaches. If you have problem with parents and vocal parents and how, you know, parents have become a nightmare at youth sports, get a blind kid on your team. Because when Michael we get the ball when that guy would hand it to him in the outfield, he had to listen to one voice to know where to throw the ball so that the kids learned quick and they shut the parents down even quicker. No, but as soon as he got that ball, it would be silent. And one person if the kid if the play was at second, that kid would stand there and call Michael's name, and he could throw that ball to him on a dime. It was really cool. Now, for people that are listening or thinking, Okay, at this point, you know, Michael's nine and a half 10. And I'm saying to him, you have to hit off a tee he did not he did not initially, he wasn't on board with that. He was like, no one's hitting off a tee. That's, that's, that's stupid. No one, there is no tee. In this in this league, I want to swing at the pitchers like everybody else. And it was an interesting conversation that night that I said, you know, you can do that if you're against the tee. And you think that that's what you should be doing. But let's think about this. Those I've seen in this age group pitch, there is no consistency. It's not like it's gonna they're even going to try to help you out and direct that pitch, you know? And I said, and you still don't, we're not changing the rule, you still only get three strikes and you're out water. And Michael's a very scientific, math minded kind of kid. I said, what's the probability that you're going to hit that ball with that kid pitching it. So then he went into a whole thing about velocity, and oh, my god, he like nerded out on science about the ball not moving and an object not moving. And I was like, guess what I've turned his light off. I'm like, good night. We'll talk about this tomorrow. And the next morning, we sat there eating breakfast. And he said, he said, I'm not happy about having to hit off a tee. But I don't want to, I don't want to let the team down. And I don't want to be that guy that they can count on will be an out every time I get to the plate. So he did, he had to set up the tee on his own, put the ball on there. And and he got, you know, if there was if he missed it three times, he was out. He never did miss three times he got on base almost every single time he actually led the team in RBIs. That very first season and I said you know you didn't contribute by hitting a home run. But you sure did set everybody else up to cross home plate.   Michael Hingson ** 42:33 I presume he had to practice a lot though, to be able to hit it and make good contact.   Kristin Smedley ** 42:38 Oh, oh my gosh, the practice. And I will say this for parents that are listening. We did I want to make sure I re emphasize he did start in blind baseball. Like he had people that were trained in how to teach a blind child baseball. So he knew the mechanics of swinging the bat connecting with the ball, throwing the ball, like he knew all that. And then we just did I mean, I played softball, my whole my whole childhood. So I have some skill there. And we just practiced and practiced and practice and we would get to the games early and run the bases run the bases just so we had that memory of where the those bases were, when he ran his his coach the first year this guy Rich, who was absolutely tremendous. He didn't he just he was on board with everything. But he did not want him out there running on his own and having a sound box or something at the bases. That was where he drew the line. He was like he was too nervous. So I said okay, you know, he was on board with everything else. Let's let's not have them have a stroke here. Let's Okay, so rich would run with them. But as Michael got more and more confident and really knew where those bases were, he was getting faster and faster. And then there was fewer so play in the one game, and it was a tight game. And the kid the kid just clocked this ball and everyone on base Michael was at first the bases were loaded. Now they're running and they're rounding the bases. And Michael enricher running and they turn third and Michael just he just guns it for home and he outran rich so and then all the parents instead of cheering for Michael they were cheering for rich to run faster.   Michael Hingson ** 44:20 Well, you know Rich needs all the help he   Kristin Smedley ** 44:22 can get to was so funny. It was so quiet. And then he looked like we were like, oh god, somebody better get rich some oxygen and I'm like, You think maybe it's time that my   Michael Hingson ** 44:34 zone? Yeah. And what happened?   Kristin Smedley ** 44:39 He did what he ended up doing he would go to like second and just call his name once but he was he hadn't he had a valid concern. He was nervous that if Michael You know, yeah, would do it himself and was on second waiting for a hit. He would never be able to duck. If the ball was coming at him and we didn't I didn't want to rely on on a nine year old to be standing there and tell him So we just had to coach out of the base and it worked out just fine.   Michael Hingson ** 45:02 And, you know, we get back to the whole discussion that you sort of alluded to a reasonable accommodation there. The reality is that there's no reason not to allow for accommodations to permit people who are different than we to be able to perform the same thing. And, again, we we really, collectively, I think, misjudge it a lot. But the fact is that Michael obviously proved he could do it. Now what admits do, did he play baseball or any of that?   Kristin Smedley ** 45:39 Oh, he sure did. He a few years later was on the exact same team. So that was Michael for his first season. The second season is when they won the championship. And I remember watching the whole thing unfold. And then when the whole town was on our sideline, watching and everything that happened, I thought, oh my gosh, this this is like, this is like the feel good movie of the year. And I would talk about I'm like, I gotta make this into a movie. Mitch played a few years later, this same orange Mets team, we are Phillies people, the fact that I have had two kids on teams called the Mets was brutal. But anyway, he was on that team. And, and he won the championship. Also, Mitchell was a completely different. He's a completely different kind of kid made a completely different impact, equally huge impact. But he was they had to figure out real quick about him running the bases because he wanted to steal second, he didn't want to just run the second one, there was a hit. Yeah, he wanted to steal bases, he figured out he was actually the fastest base runner on the Team Mitchell is quick. And he has an even if it's even possible, and even better spatial memory. Or maybe because he has this little see had this little sliver of vision in the in the right corner of his right eye. And if he tilts his head, just so and he was so much smaller and closer to the ground, maybe he was able to navigate the bass line a little better. But he did the same thing. He hit off a tee. And he played the outfield. And I have this I have this incredible picture of him and his best friend Nick, on that team. And Nick's dad was the coach Mitchell, you know, Michael and Mitchell and Shay achieve everything they want in a day. Right? Michael will do it all by himself. I mean, if he was he was moving in Florida the other day, and I swear he was going to try to figure out a way to get a U haul on his own because he did not want to wait for somebody, right? He does, as much as he can all by himself accomplishes everything. And he's exhausted at the end of the day. Mitch uses every ounce of charm, good looks everything to get people to do things for him to accomplish once and he's so he's so crazy with it that that when they would him and his buddy would come in from the outfield. I have a picture of it. Mitchell would hop on Nick's back like Oh, Nick, my legs are tired. We've been out here the whole day. Give me a ride. And he could run with Michel   Michael Hingson ** 48:10 blindness issue? Nope.   Kristin Smedley ** 48:14 It's a laziness issue.   Michael Hingson ** 48:17 Now Oh, my goodness Michael doing today. You said Mitch was in college still. Yeah. Michael   Kristin Smedley ** 48:23 Michael graduated Penn State last year. And you know, I had said that one of my things I thought about was summa cum laude. And sure enough, he was summa cum laude from Penn State. And he had two majors, two minors and a business certificate. There were a couple of semesters that he took 28 credits, they now have a law and Penn State you can't do that. I said, if I get a second tuition bill, that they think there's two of you, you're gonna have to stop doing this. But he's, he was a communications and, and audio engineering, double major. And now he's at Disney. In, in a situation where it's only Michael, I always say I'm coming back in my next life is my son, Michael, because things work out for him in ways that are just unbelievable. But he My mom always says Michael wakes up every day expecting it to be the greatest day and everything to work out. And sure enough, that's what happens for him. But he started with Disney in the live entertainment, doing sound design and things like that. And then he had an opportunity to slide over to working in contracts, and he eventually wants to go to law school and be in copyright law and stuff like that. So he went, he's like, Oh, I could try that out for a little bit. So they're holding only Michael. They're holding his position, the first position while he tries the other one for six months and then decides what he wants to do. In this day and age where 70% of this community is unemployed. People aren't even going to work companies can't get people to work. And then they say to Michael Michaels, like I want to try this and you want to hang on to that. position in case they don't like it. And they said, sure they're loving them down there.   Michael Hingson ** 50:05 You know, you're speaking of Disney and you're talking about descriptions, descriptive audio descriptions. We got the Disney Channel, my wife and I signed up for Disney in 2019, because we wanted to watch Hamilton. And I assumed that it would be audio described and it was, but before I watched Hamilton, I decided, I want to go see one of my favorite Disney movies, if they haven't the sign of Zorro, which goes back to I think 1959 with Guy Williams. And it was audio described, Disney has done a wonderful job of putting in audio descriptions on everything. I haven't watched Davy Crockett yet with this, Parker, but I know it's going to be audio described. Oh, man, it's really amazing that they have done such a tremendous job of putting audio descriptions on the things that they do, which is wonderful.   Kristin Smedley ** 51:00 Oh, yeah. Well, he Michael said they are they are so majorly focused on accessibility and all that they're doing now, especially at the parks, and he's on committees and, and all kinds of things working on his ideas for it's actually how he got the job. He in his interview, you know, there's the whole thing in the blind community, whether you disclose or don't disclose your blindness in the interview. And I said to him, I go, of course, that we were coming out of the, you know, we were in in zoom times coming out of COVID, when he had that interview, and I said, Of course you it's your luck that you get to do a zoom interview, and they will never know Michael is very good at at setting up the camera and the lighting and looking straight on. So there was nothing to tell anybody physically, visually, that he's blind. And I said, Are you going to disclose you're not and he was like, I have no idea. And he was five minutes before the interview, he still wasn't sure what he was going to do. And it just, uh, conversely, he called me afterwards, he said, Well, I made the person cry. And I said, Oh, my God. He said that they he went, they went through all the technical questions. And then there was something to the effect of, of how can you make Disney an even better company? Or what can you really bring to the table, something along those lines? Well, I told a story about growing up. We used to go to the Disney Parks every year. And he said, one of the biggest reasons he loved going to the Disney Parks is that they thought about kids like him, they thought about people that access the world differently. So he could have a phenomenal experience just like his sighted friends, and they could talk a lot about everything that they got out of being at the parks, he didn't feel like he missed out on anything. And he said, he said but also, knowing what I know now and and, and the things that I know professionally, we can make it 10 times better for all abilities, disabilities, all different ways that people access the world. I mean, he said it much more eloquently than that. And it was absolutely magnificent. And, and he ne harped on the fact that it was because of his blindness, that he'd be the biggest asset because he really knew that the couple of tweaks that they needed to do. And then this woman ended up in tears because she said she had never heard somebody so passionate, and so confident that they could make the changes that would enhance the company. And she was in full belief that that would happen. So after he tells me this whole thing I said I'm so what you're saying is you disclosed.   Michael Hingson ** 53:34 It has always been a debate. And I realized, well as back in 1989. I had owned my own company for four years selling CAD computer aided design systems to architects. I didn't need to work the system. All I needed to know was how to work it. And I decided though eventually I was going to go back into the workforce. So my wife and I were looking at jobs, and we found this great one that sounded perfect. And we talked about do you say you're blind or not. And finally, I went off and I wrote a cover letter. And I decided I'm a sales guy. Sure I should be able to talk about and so I wrote, in the cover letter, I said, the most important thing that you need to know about me is that I'm blind. And the reason that's important is because I have as a blind person, have had to sell all of my life to convince people to let me buy a house, take a guide dog into places because we didn't have the ADA back then rent an apartment, go into grocery stores or do anything else that I wanted to do. So do you want to hire somebody who comes in for eight or 10 hours a day? And then they go home because the job is over? Or do you want to hire somebody who truly understands sales for the science and art that it is and sells 24 hours a day as a way of life? And I got the job because of that   Kristin Smedley ** 54:46 that's that's what I love. It's it's it's so many and I was I was the same way for so long until recently looking at it as Oh, I got it. I gotta convince these people that this It's okay. And my kids are okay. And it's going to be just I gotta convince them to give them the chance now I'm like, chance. Are you kidding me? Hiring someone like, like, my Michael gives you the competitive edge? I'm like, exactly. They've got skills they've been practicing oh my gosh, when everyone was talking about being resilient after COVID Michaels like if I hear resilient, one more stinking time, he's like, we have been resilient 57 times a day since the day we were born, like, oh my gosh, it was so funny. He's like, Oh, this 82 People are being resilient. Now.   Michael Hingson ** 55:32 It's a beautiful thing. You know, and we, we keep hearing, and I heard it so often after September 11, we got to get back to normal. And it took me a while to realize that's ridiculous. We can't get back to normal or it'll happen again, normal will never be the same. And I hear it after COVID and everything else. And we, we really need to, to look at things differently than we do. And we need to give everyone the opportunity to use their gifts, to be able to to thrive as much as they can. We talked about conversation, one of the things that I think we knew need to do collectively is to change words we use. I've never I've learned not to be a fan of the whole concept of blind and visually impaired. And I and I realized that my problem with visually impaired after thinking it through was twofold. One, just because I'm blind I'm not visually different visually has nothing to do with that's what the experts did, to screw it up and impaired compared to what why do I need to be compared with eyesight? So I believe that blind low vision is a much more accurate terminology. Deaf people realize that some time ago they will bristle or maybe eliminate you from the world. If you say hearing impaired, for the very reason, you know, visually impaired is is a horrible thing. But that continues to promote the attitude that we really need to change.   Kristin Smedley ** 56:56 Yeah, I 100% agree. And actually, when I'm when I was writing my children's book last summer, I wrote it and then it just came out a few months ago, I have a friend that was my educational consultant on it in terms of words and language. And it's geared specifically for first graders for six year olds. It's best not well, actually, it was funny because it was at school, it was this is how I love looking back on my journey and seeing where everything just aligned beautifully. And this is why I had said earlier, I really pay attention now when things happen to take it all in so that I don't have to wait 10 years to see the gain, as opposed to the loss. So yeah, when I was getting so frustrated in my work with with my first book, thriving blind was wonderful. I mean, it was, you know, 13 people that were role models for me and my boys, I'm sharing with the world. And so that opened a lot of doors to a lot of stages and a lot of conversations. And then you know, with the this unemployment statistics, and I do the short film to convince companies and adults, I felt like I've just I've worked 24 hours a day. And I'm still kind of banging my head against the wall trying to change the biases of adults. And I said to myself, What if the bias never happens in the first place? What if What if kids come into the world with a whole different story about blindness, just like the kids that grew up with my kids, those kids that grew up with my kids, they're out in the world, they'll meet a blind person, and I'm certain that they're like, what football team? Were you on? What position? Did you play in baseball? You know, how many college degrees you have, they have a whole different view of blindness than the rest of the world. So I said, How about if we did, if I do a children's book, that we tell them from the very beginning that differences so it's not that they don't matter? It's that it's what makes you unique, and it's what's inside of you and what you believe about yourself, is what matters because the world is going to tell you a whole bunch of different things. And so to the point of my educational consultant she was looking at it as making it educationally sound for to be in schools and align with curriculum and all that kind of stuff. But we went through every single word to make sure that every single word was empowering and not you know, there's no you don't the word disability isn't even in the book its abilities we say we all my the words are it's in first person about the child telling themself all this and it's about my abilities make me who make me me. It's there's nothing about this in there.   Michael Hingson ** 59:43 Well, what I've also realized is that there's nothing wrong with the term disability. It's a characteristic and the reality is disability doesn't need to mean lack of ability and sighted people Have as much a disability as blind people, except that since Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb in 1877, we've covered up your disability by making sure that you have light everywhere you go. But it doesn't change the fact that it's there. And we really don't deal with with the whole issue at all. But you know, I was in a hotel in March, and then the power went out. And so when it did, of course, everybody started to scream because they couldn't see and they were grabbing for their phones and flat or looking for flashlights, and all that proves my point. The fact is that disability doesn't mean a lack of ability. And we all have that characteristic, in one way or another. And it's high time that we start to move away from thinking and just because some people's characteristics are more visible than others, that they're less than we are, that's just not true. Yeah.   Kristin Smedley ** 1:00:54 Yeah. And honestly, when that message was delivered to my Michael, by way of Eric weimarer, the mountain climber when he was Michael was six, when he met Eric Eric had just come off Everest, back then. And was was being honored in the city of Philadelphia with this big award. And I took Michael down there to meet them. And I'm looking at my little Michael, right, and his little suit, he was he was short for his age. And I watched his, I watched the moment of him talking with Eric and realizing in his own little mind, oh, my gosh, this blind guy is the coolest, he's just like me, he just did the coolest thing. And I've never heard I've never, he never met a sighted person that climbed Everest, you know, we've never met anybody that cool. And this guy happened to be just like him. So in that moment, at six, Michael believes that anything was possible for him. And he listened Eric talks in the speech that he gave, and in the conversation with Michael, it was all about the tools that he had to, had to figure out like he was in full responsibility for, he took full responsibility to achieve that goal. And it was all on him to achieve it, and he believed he could do it, and he found people to help them. That was the message that Michael got that day. And it never wavered. It has never wavered in his mind that he, he believes that things are possible for him, he just has to go get the tools and build a team and do all the things. So I thought, Gosh, I need all six year olds, whether they're blind, sighted, deaf, whatever, to understand that, or to at least get the correct story. That what they can do in this world is up to them, not what other people think about them. And let's let's change that and put the correct story out with the little kids because I'm tired of changing adults minds. Much harder work, it's much easier. And because I taught first grade and was like, I was like a Broadway show with some of the books that I really love. But this book is just like going on a bear hunt, you know, and you're all these actions, and you're meeting these cool people. And then you don't even know that they're blind until the end of the story. Like it's just, you're riding a skateboard and, and you're climbing a mountain, you're painting a picture, like it's just really fun stuff. Because I also I feel like so much of the information that's there for people to get educated about blindness is boring, or it's like heavy, right? Like, it's, it's a lot for people to take in where I'm like, why isn't it just part of the regular story? You know, it's just a regular story happening. And oh, by the way, here's the tools that they use to be able to do that. Because they don't, they're, they don't use their eyes to see like, no big deal. No, but let's talk about that. You know, like, it's just simple and fun. And let's change the story from like I've been saying from the youngest sets of eyes. Is there an accessible version of the book? It's only printed in an accessible version. It's in print and Braille. It's in print in Braille. Yeah, that's the only format we're doing it in right now. Which is incredibly

The Energizer (ft. Rachel Sheerin)On powering your life and the lives of othersOPENING QUOTE:“A lot of those titans, in 2020 and 2021, they weren't ready to say the B word yet. It wasn't viral on TikTok yet.”-Rachel SheerinGUEST BIO:Rachel Sheerin doesn't just motivate, she illuminates. She doesn't just speak, she electrifies any room. Her keynote message of finding both passion and success in life and work is amazing, but what's really made her special and such an in-demand speaker and MC is her 1,000-watt onstage performance. Her tales of resilience, hilarious misadventures and powerful insights into burnout and recovery inspire and entertain audiences all over the world. Whether she's diving deep in the topics of personal growth, lighting the path toward professional success or sharing that infectious laugh, Rachel Sheerin is not just a speaker and an MC — she's an experience.Links:WebsiteLinkedInInstagramXFacebookCORE TOPICS + DETAILS:[3:28] - Famous Words, New MeaningWhat does it really mean to love life?Just a few years ago, Rachel Sheerin was miserable, burntout, and ready to set fire to her career. Then, she did. What came next changed everything. She began looking for joy, rather than just the next project. She began looking for ways to “move the needle,” finding ways that her life was pulling her away from happiness rather than pushing her toward it. Loving our life means changing our mindset and our circumstances, learning to embrace what we can't change and push past what's standing in our way.[7:52] - Burnout as OvercaringBurnout comes There's a saying that parenting is only hard for good parents, and the same is true of career burnout. A career is only a challenge if you care about doing it well. Rachel found that her burnout came from trying to be all things, for all people, at all times.Soon, she began learning to prioritize what mattered most in a given moment. Sometimes, that was herself. Other times, it was her community. And sometimes, it was the entire world. Avoiding burnout is about managing our caring muscles.[16:24] - The Difference Between an MC and a Keynote SpeakerSimilar backgrounds, different rolesHaving seen both sides, Rachel Sheerin understands the distinction between an MC and a keynote speaker. An MC is someone there for engagement and enjoyment and event management. It's the three Es that are at the core role of an MC. A keynote speaker can definitely do those things, but it's really about their thought leadership, motivation, and whether they're an expert in their subject. To put it more succinctly: MCs excel at delivering an organization's message. Keynote speakers excel at delivering their own message to organizations.[33:41] - The People Who Don't Look Like YouBenefitting from diverse perspectivesWant to expand your knowledge, empathy, and capability? Start by expanding your openness to diverse voices. As Rachel says, it's not about hitting a benchmark or making a token effort on an individual or organizational level. It's about opening yourself up to exposure from people who look differently, think differently, and do differently than you. It's the moment when you star tasking: “Gosh, what else is out there?”RESOURCES:[2:48] Rachel's BlogFollow Rachel Sheerin:WebsiteLinkedInInstagramXFacebookFollow Josh Linkner:FacebookLinkedInInstagramXYouTubeABOUT MIC DROP:Hear from the world's top thought leaders and experts, sharing tipping point moments, strategies, and approaches that led to their speaking career success. Throughout each episode, host Josh Linkner, #1 Innovation keynote speaker in the world, deconstructs guests' Mic Drop moments and provides tactical tools and takeaways that can be applied to any speaking business, no matter it's starting point. You'll enjoy hearing from some of the top keynote speakers in the industry including: Ryan Estis, Alison Levine, Peter Sheahan, Seth Mattison, Cassandra Worthy, and many more. Mic Drop is sponsored by ImpactEleven.Learn more at: MicDropPodcast.comABOUT THE HOST:Josh Linkner is a Creative Troublemaker. He believes passionately that all human beings have incredible creative capacity, and he's on a mission to unlock inventive thinking and creative problem solving to help leaders, individuals, and communities soar. Josh has been the founder and CEO of five tech companies, which sold for a combined value of over $200 million and is the author of four books including the New York Times Bestsellers, Disciplined Dreaming and The Road to Reinvention. He has invested in and/or mentored over 100 startups and is the Founding Partner of Detroit Venture Partners.Today, Josh serves as Chairman and Co-founder of Platypus Labs, an innovation research, training, and consulting firm. He has twice been named the Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year and is the recipient of the United States Presidential Champion of Change Award. Josh is also a passionate Detroiter, the father of four, is a professional-level jazz guitarist, and has a slightly odd obsession with greasy pizza. Learn more about Josh: JoshLinkner.comSPONSORED BY IMPACTELEVEN:From refining your keynote speaking skills to writing marketing copy, from connecting you with bureaus to boosting your fees, to developing high-quality websites, producing head-turning demo reels, Impact Eleven (formerly 3 Ring Circus) offers a comprehensive and powerful set of services to help speakers land more gigs at higher fees. Learn more at: impacteleven.comPRODUCED BY DETROIT PODCAST STUDIOS:In Detroit, history was made when Barry Gordy opened Motown Records back in 1960. More than just discovering great talent, Gordy built a systematic approach to launching superstars. His rigorous processes, technology, and development methods were the secret sauce behind legendary acts such as The Supremes, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross and Michael Jackson.As a nod to the past, Detroit Podcast Studios leverages modern versions of Motown's processes to launch today's most compelling podcasts. What Motown was to musical artists, Detroit Podcast Studios is to podcast artists today. With over 75 combined years of experience in content development, audio production, music scoring, storytelling, and digital marketing, Detroit Podcast Studios provides full-service development, training, and production capabilities to take podcasts from messy ideas to finely tuned hits. Here's to making (podcast) history together.Learn more at: DetroitPodcastStudios.comSHOW CREDITS:Josh Linkner: Host | josh@joshlinkner.comConnor Trombley: Executive Producer | connor@DetroitPodcastStudios.com

...but my unmasked self is better FOR me. For some reason I couldn't add this as a video, so get the video here: https://youtu.be/5OUu_QPEX5s  Get other episodes from my podcast here: https://www.incandescentmeditations.com  Or just search Incandescent Podcast wherever you enjoy your podcasts, you podcast maniac! Sorry, idk what came over me. I have no clue if you're a podcast maniac, but if you are...I bet you were like "woah, how'd you know?" right? Things I want to share: The sunset: Dr. Dain Heer's content: https://www.youtube.com/drdainheer My year-long free become-your-own-superhero program: https://www.marisaimon.com/annual-superhero-subscription My free manifesting course: https://www.freemanifestingcourse.com  Set the intention to get guidance and then hit shuffle. The song will be for you: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5YZGtChmPVAqI4wGrxZAWX?si=L4GX3DvtToC-m4Xhs7gdug&pi=u-abSerydcQASw  Disclaimer: I'm an idiot. I'm brilliant, sure, but yeah, I'm also an idiot. If you need a professional, this is not that. Here's some professionals I've used that I totally love with all my heart: Emotion Code with Rebecca Packard: https://www.rebeccapackard.com  - I did the year long program about 7 years ago when I was living in a barn without running water, working full time and starting my business. It was a huge support to me during that difficult time and a big accelerator in my growth. I recommend at least doing a heart wall removal. Spiritual mentorship with Chelsie Skowyra: https://www.chelsieskowyra.com  - okay, I haven't worked with her as a client but she was a therapist when I was a case manager and we worked on several cased together and since then bonded as we both started our businesses around the same time ~ 7 years ago. If you don't think you want therapy but you'd like someone with that kind of background who will channel messages and healing and card readings and whatever else you need to help you access your own greatest wisdom, check her out. Spiritual/wellness entrepreneur lawyer, Ashley Fillingim: https://www.sandstarlaw.com  - if you need an attorney on your side in the wellness/spirituality industry, you want this giant-hearted firecracker! She is a total gem and angel in human form and will make you feel so safe even when the language in a contract makes no sense to your human brain. Spiritual wellness entrepreneur mentors, Allison Melody and Laura Powers: https://www.foodheals.com  and https://www.healingpowers.net  - they're both amazing in general and recommend following the work they do. They're both super diverse dynamos with so much to offer. If you need inspiration to heal some crazy thing (well, all of the above can help you there), but Flossie Njama from https://simplelifehealthieryou.com has all sort of products and stories. Gosh, I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting and I'll add when I can! PS If you are wondering what happened to my other incandescent confessionals about being omnigender/omnisexual and the ACIM lesson about everything or nothing, I am actually not at liberty to say anything at all about those episodes and didn't realize, so I had to take them down, but I appreciate your interest!    #unmasking #confessional #neurodivergence #omnigender #omnisexual

Zounds! We're back again with a fresh helpin' of down-home, Wisconsin-grade minced oaths. We've got so much forking content to get through that if we don't get talking, we might driven to harder words like frickin' or shirtballs. At least there won't be any trolley problems. In this episode: News items The Ayrton Cobra Unreal Engine pricing changes Solotech founder in memoriam Designer chat Renaissance Tour Tea Time How do you like to distribute DMX? Lighting Trivia Lighting Term of the Day: Art-Net During the time of holiday cheer, whatever you celebrate, may the light of truth and the warmth of love go with you in your hearts.

In today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, CesarRespino.com brings to you a special guest by the name of Feroz.Feroz Eledath, a renowned Master Mindset Coach with 28 years of experience, specializes in eliminating negative subconscious programming to empower individuals to achieve their goals without self-sabotage. He has impacted over 28K lives globally through his Rapid Mindset Transformation (RMT) framework.Feroz's expertise extends to training 1,500+ life coaches, teaching them to master their minds, break counterproductive habits, and cultivate positive thinking patterns.Feroz excels in coaching top-level executives, entrepreneurs, and business owners, helping them perform at their best, maintain balance, and guide their teams to surpass expectations. His coaching unlocks leaders' full potential, enabling them to create value for their communities.Feroz's coaching has led to life-altering breakthroughs in various areas, such as purposeful living, conquering fear of failure, confident leadership, effective communication, overcoming procrastination, nurturing fulfilling relationships and making impossible possible.Education:Masters in Animal Science, The OSU, Columbus, OhioBachelors: Veterinary Science and Animal Husbandry, Kerala, IndiaTo Connect with Feroz go to:Email: Feroz@Ferozeledath.comIG: @dr_coachLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/ferozeledathFb: https://www.facebook.com/FerozEledathFree fb gp: https://www.facebook.com/groups/reprogrammindsetandmasterconfidenceX: https://x.com/FerozEledathFeroz's message to you is:The power of shifting your mindset from Default Mindset to New Mindset and immediately experiencing miraculous results show up in your life.To Connect with CesarRespino go to:

As I have always told our guests, our time together is a conversation, not an interview. This was never truer than with our guest this time, Andrew Leland. Andrew grew up with what most people would call a pretty normal childhood. However, as he discovered he was encountering night blindness that gradually grew worse. Back in the 1980s and early 90s, he was not getting much support for determining what was happening with his eyes. He did his own research and decided that he was experiencing retinitis pigmentosa, a degenerative eye disease that first affects peripheral vision and eventually leads to total blindness. I won't spend time discussing Andrew's journey toward how finally doctors verified his personal diagnosis.   Andrew was and is an incredible researcher and thinker. He comes by it naturally. In addition, he is quite a writer and has had material published by The New York Times Magazine, The New Yorker, McSweeney's Quarterly, and The San Francisco Chronicle, among other outlets. He comes by his talents honestly through family members who have been screenwriters and playwrights. Example? His grandfather was Marvin Neal Simon, better known to all of us as Neal Simon.   This year Andrew's first book was published. It is entitled, The Country of the Blind: A Memoir at the End of Sight. I urge you to get and read it.   Our conversation goes into detail about blindness in so many different ways. I am sure you will find that your own views of blindness will probably change as you hear our discussion. Andrew has already agreed to come on again so we can continue our discussions. I hope you enjoy our time together.     About the Guest:   Andrew Leland's first book is The Country of the Blind: A Memoir at the End of Sight. His_ writing has appeared in _The New York Times Magazine, The New Yorker, McSweeney's Quarterly, and The San Francisco Chronicle, among other outlets. From 2013-2019, he hosted and produced The Organist, an arts and culture podcast, for KCRW; he has also produced pieces for Radiolab and 99 Percent Invisible. He has been an editor at The Believer since 2003. He lives in western Massachusetts with his wife and son.     Ways to connect with Andrew:   Website: https://www.andrewleland.org/   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes    Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.     Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. And we're gonna get to have a little bit of all of that today. I get to interview someone who I've talked to a couple of times and met a couple of months ago for the first time, I think the first time at a meeting, Andrew Leland is the author of the country of the blind. And he will tell us about that. And we will have lots of fun things to talk about. I am sure he's been a podcaster. He's an author. Needless to say, he's written things. And I don't know what else we'll see what other kinds of secrets we can uncover. Fair warning, right. So Andrew, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Andrew Leland ** 02:01 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:04 Well, I really appreciate you coming. Why don't you start by telling us a little about kind of the early Andrew growing up in some of that kind of stuff? Oh, sure. A lot of times go in a galaxy far, far away. Yeah. Right.   Andrew Leland ** 02:18 planet called the Los Angeles. I was born in LA. Yeah. And my parents moved to New York pretty quickly. And they split when I was two. So for most of my childhood, I was kind of bouncing in between, I live with my mom. But then I would go visit my dad on holidays. And my mom moved around a lot. So we were in New York, just outside the city. And then we moved to Toronto for two years, and then back to New York, and then to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and then to California, Southern California. So I lived a lot of places. And that was all before college. And yeah, what can I tell you about young Andrew, I, you know, I always was interested in writing and reading. And I come from a family of writers. My mom is a screenwriter, my grandfather was a playwright. My aunt is a novelist. And so and my dad, you know, remember when I was a kid, he had a column for videography magazine, and has always been super interested in digital technology, you know, from the earliest days of desktop publishing. And he worked for, like early days of USA Network, you know, so like this kind of shared interest that I inherited from my parents of, you know, creativity and media, I guess was one way you could put it, you know, storytelling and sort of like playing around with electronic media. And, you know, I grew up I was born in 1980. So by the time I was an adolescent, the internet was just starting to reach its tendrils into our lives. And I remember my dad bought me a modem. And when I was like, I don't know 14 or something. And I was definitely one of the first kids in my class to have a modem and you know, messing around on message boards and stuff. So that was very influential for me. You know, when it was around that time that I started to notice that I had night blindness, and I kind of diagnosed myself with retinitis pigmentosa on that early web, you know, before the days of WebMD or anything like that, but it just there didn't seem to be a lot of causes for adolescent night blindness. And so I kind of figured it out and then sort of just compartmentalized it like kick that information to the side somewhere dusty corner of my brain and just went about my life and then it wasn't until later my teenage years I'd already done a year in college I think in Ohio where I said you know what, this is getting a little more intrusive and then I've that my mom finally booked me an appointment at a at a real deal, you know, medical retinal Research Center and at UCLA. And then, you know, an actual retinal specialist said, Yep, you've got retina is pigmentosa. You'll you Will, you know, maintain decent vision into middle age and then it'll fall off a cliff. Once again, I just carried that information around for, you know, the next 20 years or so. And I'm 4040 How old am I? Mike? 22 years old? Right? Well, I actually I'm a December baby. So we gotta go, Okay, you got a couple of months to go a 42 year old medicine me. You know, and at this point in my life, you know, I had the, you know, I read about all this in the book, but I have a feeling that, like that part of his diagnosis way back when is coming true, you know, and I feel like, okay, it's all finally happening, and like, it's happening more quickly, but then my current doctor is kind of careful to reassure me that that's not actually happening. And that RP, you know, their understanding of it has evolved since then. And there's like, you know, different genetic profiles, and that, in fact, maybe I might have some residual useful vision for many years to come. But one of the things that I really wrestled with, both in the book and just in my life is the question of, you know, how much to claim to that site and how useful that site really is. And, and, and trying to figure out what, what it means to be blind, if I'm blind, you know, certainly legally blind, you know, I've half got about five or six degrees of, of central vision. You know, and so, so, so my so So, I've left your question behind at this point. But I wrote, I wrote this book, in some ways to answer that question of, like, where I, where I fit into this world of blindness? And am I an outsider, or am I an insider? like at what point do I get to be part of the club and all those really tricky questions that were really bothering me as a person, I got to kind of explore in the form of a book.   Michael Hingson ** 06:52 The interesting thing about what you said in the book, however, concerning Are you an outsider or an insider, Am I blind? Or am I not? is, of course a question that everyone wrestles with. And I personally like the Jernigan definition, have you ever read his article, a definition of blindness?   Andrew Leland ** 07:11 Oh, maybe tell me what he says. So what he says   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 is that you should consider yourself blind from a functional standpoint, when your eyesight decreases to the point where you have to use alternatives to vision to be able to perform tasks. Now, having said that, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use the residual vision that you have. But what you should do is learn blindness techniques, and learn to psychologically accept that from a blindness standpoint, or from a from a functional standpoint, you are blind, but you do also have eyesight, then there's no reason not to use that. But you still can consider yourself a blind person, because you are using alternatives to eyesight in order to function and do things.   Andrew Leland ** 08:00 Yeah, no, I have heard that from the NFB I didn't realize its source was Jernigan. But I really aspire to live my life that way. You know, I think it's, there are some days when it's easier than others. But, you know, I'm here, learning, you know, practicing Braille, using my white cane every day, you know, like learning jaws and trying to try to keep my screen reader on my phone as much as possible. And it's funny how it becomes almost like a moral mind game that I play with myself where I'm like, okay, like, Wow, it's so much easier to use my phone with a screen reader. Like, why don't I just leave it on all the time, but then inevitably, I get to like a inaccessible website, or like, I'm trying to write and write a text message. And I'm like, Oh, am I really going to like use the rotor to like, go back up, you know, to these words, and so then I turn it back off, and then I leave it off. And I'm just like, constantly messing with my own head and this way, and I've heard from, from folks with ARPI, who are more blind than I am, who have less vision. And there is the sense that like, one relief of even though it's, you know, incontrovertibly, incontrovertibly inconvenient to have less vision, right? Like there's there's certain affordances that vision gives you that shouldn't make life easier. But But one thing that I've heard from these folks is that, you know, that kind of constant obsessing and agonizing over like, how much vision do I have? How much vision am I going to have tomorrow? How am I going to do this, with this much vision versus that much vision? Like when that goes away? It is a bit of a relief I've heard.   Michael Hingson ** 09:28 Yeah, I mean, if it ultimately comes down to you can obsess over it, you can stress about it. What can I do if I lose this extra vision or not? Is is a question but the other side of it is why assume that just because you lose vision, you can't do X or Y. And that's the thing that I think so many people tend to not really deal with. I believe that we have totally an inconsistent and wrong definition of disability. Anyway, I believe that everyone on the planet has a disability. And for most people, the disability is like dependents. And my case from then my way from making that is look at what Thomas Edison did in 1878. He invented the electric light bulb, which allowed people to have light on demand. So they could function in the dark, because they couldn't really function in the dark until they had light on demand, or unless they had a burning stick or something that gave us light. But the reality is, they still had a disability. And no matter how much today we offer light on demand, and light on demand is a fine thing. No, no problem with it. But recognize that still, without that light on demand, if a if a power failure happens or something and the lights go out, sighted people are at least in a world of hurt until they get another source for light on demand. Mm hmm. I was I was invited to actually Kelly and Ryan's Oscar after party to be in the audience this year. So we went to the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel, which is fun. I used to go there for NFB of California conventions, a great hotel, man. So we got there about three o'clock on Thursday, on Saturday afternoon, and it was my niece and nephew and I and we were all there. And we just dropped our luggage off. And we're going downstairs when suddenly I heard screaming, and I asked my niece, what's going on. And she said, there's been a power failure in and around the hotel. And I'd love to try to spread the rumor that it was all Jimmy Kimmel trying to get attention. But no one's bought that. But but the but the point is that suddenly people didn't know what to do. And I said, doesn't seem like a problem to me. And you know, it's all a matter of perspective. But we really have to get to this idea that it doesn't matter whether you can see or not. And you pointed out very well, in your book that blindness is not nearly so much the issue psychologically, as is our attitude about blindness? Absolutely.   Andrew Leland ** 11:58 Yeah, I remember I interviewed Mark Riccobono, the current president of the National Federation of the Blind, and he made a very similar point, when we were talking about the nature of accommodations, which is something that I still I'm thinking a lot about is I think it's a very tricky idea. And a very important idea, which I think your your your idea of light dependency gets at, you know, in America, Bono's point was, you know, look, we have the the BR headquarters here in Baltimore, and we pay a pretty hefty electricity bill, to keep the lights on every month, and that, you know, the blind folks who work there, it's not for them, right? It's for all the sighted people who come and visit or work at the at the center. And in some ways, that's a reasonable accommodation, that the NFB is making for the sighted people that they want to be inclusive of right. And so that just even that idea of like, what is a reasonable accommodation? I think you're right, that we think of it as like the poor, unfortunate disabled people who need to be brought back to some kind of norm that's at the center. And there's the kind of reframing that you're doing when you talk about light dependency or that Riccobono is doing when he talks about, you know, his electricity bill, you know, it kind of gives the lie to puts the lie to that, that idea that, that the norm takes precedence. And the reality is that, you know, that we all need accommodations, like you say, and so what's reasonable, is really based on what, what humans deserve, which is which is to be included, and to be, you know, to have access equal access, that   Michael Hingson ** 13:38 ought to be the norm. Jacobus timbre wrote a speech called the pros and cons of preferential treatment that was then paired down to a shorter article called a preference for equality. And I haven't, I've been trying to find it, it's at the NFB center, but it isn't as readily available as I would like to see it. And he talks about what equality is, and he said, equality isn't that you do things exactly the same way it is that you have access and with whatever way you need to the same information. So you can't just say, Okay, well, here's a printed textbook, blind persons that's equal under the law, it's not. And he talks about the fact that we all really should be seeking equality and looking for what will give people an equal opportunity in the world. And that's really the issue that we so often just don't face, like we should. The fact of the matter is, it's a part of the cost of business, in general to provide electricity and lights. It's a part of the cost of business to provide for companies a coffee machine, although it's usually a touchscreen machine, but it's there. It's a cost of doing business to provide desks and computers with monitors and so on. But no one views provide Seeing a screen reader as part of the cost of business and nobody views providing a refreshable Braille display or other tools that might give me an equal opportunity to be a part of society, we don't view those as part of the cost of doing business, which we should, because that's what inclusion is really all about. You know, we don't, we don't deal with the fact or sometimes we do that some people are a whole lot shorter than others. And so we provide ladders or step stools, or whatever. But we don't provide cost of doing business concepts to a lot of the tools that say, I might need or you might need. Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 15:37 yeah, it's one thing that I've been thinking about lately is, is really even just the challenge of understanding what those accommodations are. Because, you know, I think I think, practically speaking in the world, you know, you'll, you'll call up a blind person and say, What do you need, you know, like, we're trying to make this art exhibit or this, you know, business or this, you know, HR software accessible, what do you need, you know, and that one blind person might be like, well, I use NVDA, you know, or that one blind person might be low vision, right. And they might be like, I use a screen magnifier. And it's so difficult to understand, like, what the accommodations are, that would be, that would be adequate to cover, like a reasonable sample. And so just like, it's just so much more complicated than it originally seems, you know, when you have a really well meaning person saying, like, we really value diversity, equity and inclusion and accessibility. And but then like, the distance between that well meeting gesture, and then actually pulling off something that's fully accessible to a wide swath of the whatever the users are, is just, it's just unfair, quickly, huge. So that's something that I'm thinking about a lot lately is like how to how do you approach that problem?   Michael Hingson ** 16:46 Well, and I think, though, the at least as far as I can tell, I think about it a lot, as well, as I think any of us should. The fact is that one solution doesn't fit everyone, I'm sure that there are people, although I'm sure it's a minority, but there are people who don't like fluorescent lights as well as incandescent lights, and neither of them like other kinds of lighting as compared to whatever. And then you have people epilepsy, epilepsy who can't deal as well, with blinking lights are blinking elements on a webpage, there's there isn't ever going to be least as near as I can tell, one size that truly fits all, until we all become perfect in our bodies. And that's got a ways to go. So the reality is, I don't think there is one solution that fits everyone. And I think that you, you pointed it out, the best thing to do is to keep an open mind and say, Yeah, I want to hire a person who's qualified. And if that person is blind, I'll do it. And I will ask them what they need. You know, an example I could give you is, was it three years ago, I guess, four years ago, now actually, I was called by someone up in Canada, who is a lawyer who went to work for a college. And we were talking about IRA, artificial intelligent, remote assistance, a IRA, you know about IRA, you wrote about it. And she said, you know, a lot of the discovery and a lot of the documentation that I need to use is not accessible through even OCR to be overly accurate, because there will be deep degradations and print and so and so I can't rely on that. And certainly, Adobe's OCR isn't necessarily going to deal with all the things that I need. So I'd like to use IRA is that a reasonable accommodation? And I said, sure it is, if that's what you need in order to be able to have access to the information, then it should be provided. Now the laws are a little different up there. But nevertheless, she went to the college and made the case and they gave her iris so she could read on demand all day, any document that she needed, and she was able to do her job. And not everyone necessarily needs to do that. And hear in probably some quarters, maybe there are other accommodations that people could use instead of using IRA. But still, Ira opened up a VISTA for her and gave her access to being able to do a job and I think that we really need to recognize that one solution doesn't fit everything. And the best way to address it is to ask somebody, what do you need in order to do your job, and we will provide it or work it out. And here in the US, of course, given although they try to renege on it so much, but given the definition of what rehabilitation is supposed to do, they're supposed to be able to and help make people employable. They should be providing a lot of these tools and sometimes getting counselors to do that. Just like pulling teeth, I'm sure you know about that. Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 20:02 I do. I do. I mean, it's interesting because I think in the face of that complexity of saying, like, Okay, we like interviewed a dozen blind people, and we like have this we know, our website is it's compatible with all the screen readers. And, you know, this event, like, you know, let's say you're doing an event, and the website is compatible with every screen reader, and it's got dynamic types. So the low vision users are happy, you know, and then the event starts and you're like, oh, wait, we forgot about the existence of deafblind people, and there's no cart, or captioners. Here. And, you know, and then the question for me another another thing I've been thinking about lately is like, how do you respond to that, you know, like, what is the? What is the response? And even just like on a kind of, like, a social level, like, is it scathing indictment, like you, you terrible people, you know, you have you have like, you don't care about deaf blind people. And so I hereby cancel you, and I'm going to, like, tweet about how terrible you are? Or is there like a more benign approach, but then you don't get what you need. And like, sort of, and I think, I think a lot of this is a function of my having grown up without a disability, really, you know, I mean, like, growing up, my I went through my, my full education, without ever having to ask for an accommodation, you know, maybe I had to sit a little closer to the board a little bit. But you know, nothing, nothing like what I'm dealing with now. And I think as a result, I am just now starting to wrap my head around, like, how when self advocates and what styles are most effective. And I think that's another really important piece of this conversation, because it's easy, I think, to walk into, you know, cafe x, or, you know, I just did it the other day, yesterday, last night, I saw this really cool looking new magazine about radio, which was an interest of mine, like great for radio producers. And it was print only, you know, and I wrote like, Hey, how can I get an accessible copy of this cool look in new magazine? And they're like, Oh, actually, we're, we're putting our resources all it were kind of a shoestring operation, all our resources are going into the print edition right now. You know, and then, so then I had a question before me, right? Like, do I say, like, Hey, everybody, like, we must not rest until you agitate for these people to make their accessible thing, or I just sort of wrote a friendly note. And I was like, there's a lot of like, blind radio makers out there who might find your stuff interesting. And I like, affectionately urge you to make this accessible. And then, you know, their hearts seems to be in the right place. And they seem to be working on making it happen. So I don't know what's your what's your thinking about that? Like how to respond to those situations.   Michael Hingson ** 22:34 So my belief is whether we like it or not, every one of us needs to be a teacher. And the fact is to deal with with what you just said, let's take the radio magazine, which magazine is it by the way? Oh, I   Andrew Leland ** 22:51 didn't want to call them out by name. Oh, I'm   Michael Hingson ** 22:52 sorry. I was asking for my own curiosity, being very interested in radio myself. So we   Andrew Leland ** 22:57 give them some good and bad press simultaneously. It's called good tape. Okay, it's brand new. And at the moment, it's as of this recording, it's print only. And,   Michael Hingson ** 23:06 and tape is on the way up a good tape. No, that's okay. Anyway, but no, the reason I asked it was mainly out of curiosity. But look, you you kind of answered the question, their heart is in the right place. And it is probably true that they never thought of it. I don't know. But probably, yeah, they didn't think of it. I've seen other magazines like diversity magazine several years ago, I talked with them about the fact that their online version is totally inaccessible. And they have a print version. But none of its accessible. And I haven't seen it change yet, even though we've talked about it. And so they can talk about diversity all they want, and they talk a lot about disabilities, but they don't deal with it. I think that it comes down to what's the organization willing to do I've, I've dealt with a number of organizations that never thought about making a digital presence, accessible or having some sort of alternative way of people getting to the magazine, and I don't expect everybody to produce the magazine and Braille. And nowadays, you don't need to produce a braille version, but you need to produce an accessible version. And if people are willing to work toward that, I don't think that we should grind them into the ground at all if their hearts in the right place. And I can appreciate how this magazine started with print, which is natural. Yeah, but one of the things that you can do when others can do is to help them see maybe how easy it is to create a version that other people can can use for example, I don't know how they produce their magazine, but I will bet you virtual Anything that it starts with some sort of an electronic copy. If it does that, then they could certainly make that electronic copy a version that would be usable and accessible to the end. And then they could still provide it through a subscription process, there's no reason to give it away if they're not giving it away to other people, but they could still make it available. And I also think something else, which is, as you point out in the book, and the country of the blind, so often, things that are done for us, will help other people as well. So great tape is wonderful. But how is a person with dyslexia going to be able to read it? Yeah, so it isn't just blind people who could benefit from having a more accessible version of it. And probably, it would be worth exploring, even discussing with him about finding places to get funding to help make that happen. But if somebody's got their heart in the right place, then I think by all means, we shouldn't bless them. We should be teachers, and we should help them because they won't know how to do that stuff.   Andrew Leland ** 26:10 Ya know, I love that answer to be a teacher. And I think there was I think there was a teacher Lee vibe in my, in my response to them, you know, like, this is a thing that is actually important and useful. And you ought to really seriously consider doing it. You know, I mean, I think if you think about the how people act in the classroom, you know, it's those kinds of teachers who, you know, who, who correct you, but they correct you in a way that makes you want to follow their correction, instead of just ruining your day and making you feel like you're a terrible person. But it's interesting, because if you, you know, I mean, part of a lot of this is the function of the internet. You know, I see a lot of disabled people out there calling out people for doing things and accessibly. And, you know, I feel I'm really split about this, because I really empathize with the frustration that that one feels like, there's an amazing film called, I didn't see you there by a filmmaker named Reed Davenport, who's a wheelchair user. And the film is really just, like, he kind of he mounts a camera to his wheelchair, and a lot of it is like, he almost like turns his wheelchair into a dolly. And there's these these, like, wonderful, like tracking shots of Oakland, where he lived at the time. And there's this there's this incredible scene where it's really just his daily life, like, you know, and it's very similar to the experience of a blind person, like, he'll just be on a street corner hanging out, you know, in somebody's, like, the light screen, you know, like, what do you what are you trying to do, man, and he's like, I'm just here waiting for my car, my ride, you know, like, leave me alone. You don't need to intervene. But there's this incredible scene where there are some workers in his building are like, in the sort of just sort of unclear like they're working. And there's an extension cord, completely blocking the path, the visible entrance to his apartment, and he can't get into his house. And he's just this, like, the, the depth of his anger is so visceral in that moment. You know, and he yells at them, and they're like, oh, sorry, you know, they kind of don't care, you know, but they like, they're like, just give us a second. And he's like, I don't have a second, like, I need to get into my house. Now. You know, he just has no patience for them. And it's understandable, right? Like, imagine you're trying to get home. And as a matter of course, regularly every week, there's something that's preventing you. And then and then and then you see him when he finally gets back into his apartment. He's just like, screaming and rage. And it's, you know, so that rage I think, is entirely earned. You know, like, I don't I don't think that one one should have to mute one's rage and how and be a kindly teacher in that moment. Right. But, so So yeah, so So I kind of see it both ways. Like, there are moments for the rage. And then I guess there are moments for the mortar teacher like because obviously, like the stakes of me, getting access to good tape magazine are very different than the stakes for read like getting into his apartment. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 Well, yes and no, it's still access. But the other part about it is the next time, that group of people in whatever they're doing to repair or whatever, if they do the same thing, then they clearly haven't learned. Whereas if they go, Oh, we got to make sure we don't block an entrance. Yeah, then they've learned a lesson and so I can understand the rage. I felt it many times myself, and we all have and, and it's understandable. But ultimately, hopefully, we can come down. And depending on how much time there is to do it, go pick out and say, Look, do you see what the problem is here? Yeah. And please, anytime don't block an entrance or raise it way up or do something because a person in a wheelchair can't get in. And that's a problem. I so my wife always was in a wheelchair, and we were married for two years she passed last November. Just the bye He didn't keep up with the spirit is what I tell people is really true. But I remember we were places like Disneyland. And people would just jump over her foot rests, how rude, you know, and other things like that. But we, we faced a lot of it. And we faced it from the double whammy of one person being in a wheelchair and one person being blind. One day, we went to a restaurant. And we walked in, and we were standing at the counter and the hostess behind the counter was just staring at us. And finally, Karen said to me, well, the hostess is here, I don't think she knows who to talk to, you know, because I'm not making necessarily eye contact, and Karen is down below, in in a wheelchair. And so fine. I said, maybe if she would just ask us if we would like to sit down, it would be okay. And you know, it was friendly, and it broke the ice and then it went, went from there. But unfortunately, we, we, we bring up children and we bring up people not recognizing the whole concept of inclusion. And we we really don't teach people how to have the conversation. And I think that that's the real big issue. We don't get drawn into the conversation, which is why diversity is a problem because it doesn't include disabilities.   Andrew Leland ** 31:16 Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, that seems to be changing. You know, I mean, you have you know, you have a lot more experience in this realm than I do. But But But haven't you felt like a real cultural shift over the last, you know, 2030 years about disability being more front of mind in that conversation?   Michael Hingson ** 31:36 I think it's, it's shifted some. The unemployment rate among employable blind people, though, for example, hasn't changed a lot. A lot of things regarding blindness hasn't really, or haven't really changed a lot. And we still have to fight for things like the National Federation of the Blind finally took the American Bar Association, all the way to the Supreme Court, because they wouldn't allow people to use their technology to take the LSAT. Yeah, lawyers of all people and you know, so things like that. There's, there's so many ways that it continues to happen. And I realized we're a low incidence disability. But still, I think, I think the best way to really equate it. You mentioned in Goldstein in the book, Dan, who I saw, I think, is a great lawyer spoke to the NFB in 2008. And one of the things he talked about was Henry, mayor's book all on fire. And it's about William Lloyd Garrison, the abolitionist and he was looking for allies. And he heard about these, these two, I think, two ladies, the Grimm case, sisters who were women's suffragettes, and they and he said, Look, we should get them involved. And people said, no, they're dealing with women's things. We're dealing with abolition, it's two different things. And Garrison said, No, it's all the same thing. And we've got to get people to recognize that it really is all the same thing. The you mentioned, well, you mentioned Fred Schroeder and the American Association of Persons with Disabilities at various points in the book. And in 1997. Fred, when he was RSA Commissioner, went to speak to the AAPD talking about the fact that we should be mandating Braille be taught in schools to all blind and low vision kids. And the way he tells me the story, they said, Well, that's a blindness issue. That's not our issue, because most of those people weren't blind. And that's unfortunate, because the reality is, it's all the same thing.   Andrew Leland ** 33:41 Yeah, no, that's something, uh, Dan Goldstein was a really important person for me to meet very early on in the process of writing the book, because I mean, just because he's, he's brilliant. And yeah, such a long history of, of arguing in a very, you know, legalistic, which is to say, very precise, and, you know, method, methodical way. A lot of these questions about what constitutes a reasonable accommodation, you know, as in like, his, his, the lawsuits that he's brought on behalf of the NFB have really broken ground have been incredibly important. So he's, he was a wonderful resource for me. You know, one of the things that he and I talked about, I remember at the beginning, and then, you know, I had lunch with him earlier this week, you know, we still are talking about it. And it's exactly that that question of, you know, the thing that the thing that really dogged me as I pursued, writing this book, and one of the kinds of questions that hung over it was this question of identity. And, you know, like, the sense that like the NFB argues that blindness is not what defines you. And yet, there it is, in their name, the National Federation of the Blind by and like, Where does where does this identity fit? And, you know, and I think that when you talk about other identities like Like the African American civil rights movement, or, you know, you mentioned the suffragette movement, you know, the feminist movement. You know, and it's interesting to compare these other identity based civil rights movements, and the organized by movement and the disability rights movement. And think about the parallels, but then there's also I think, disconnects as well. And so that was one of the things that I was it was really, really challenging for me to, to write about, but I think it's a really important question. And one that's, that's really evolving right now. You know, one of the things that I discovered was that, you know, in addition to the sort of blind or disability rights movement, that's very much modeled on the civil rights model of like, you know, my the first time I went to the NFB convention in 2018, you know, the banquet speech that Mark Riccobono gave was all about the speech of women and the women in the Federation, you know, which, which someone told me afterwards like, this is all new territory for the NFB, like, you know, they don't, there, there hasn't traditionally been this sort of emphasis on, including other identities, you know, and I found that was, I found that interesting, but then also, I was so struck by a line in that speech, where Riccobono said, you know, the fact that they were women is not as important as the fact that they were blind people fighting for, you know, whatever was like the liberation of blindness. And, you know, so it's, there's still always this emphasis on blindness as, like, the most important organizing characteristic of somebody is a part of that movement. And it makes total sense, right, it's the National Federation of the Blind, and they're fighting that 70% unemployment rate. And, you know, I think by their lights, you don't get there by you know, taking your eyes off the prize in some ways. And, and so I was really struck by some of these other groups that I encountered, particularly in 2020, when a lot of the sort of identity right questions came to the fore with the murder of George Floyd, right. You know, and then I was attending, you know, because it was 2020 it was that the convention was online, and I you know, I read it, this is all in the book, I, I went to the LGBT queue meet up, and which, which is also like a shockingly recent development at the NFB, you know, there's this notorious story where President Maher, you know, ostentatiously tears up a card, at a at an NFB convention where there are LGBT. NFB is trying to organize and have an LGBTQ meet up and he sort of ostentatiously tears it up as soon as he reads what's on the card. You know, a lot of still raw pain among NF beers who I talked to about that incident, anyway, like that this this LGBTQ meetup, you know, there's, there's a speaker who's not part of the NFB named justice, shorter, who works in DC, she's, she's blind, you know, and she's part of what is called the, you know, the Disability Justice Movement, which is very much about decentering whiteness, from the disability rights struggle and centering, black, queer, you know, people of color, who are also disabled, and and in some ways, I've found the NFB struggling to, to connect with with that model. You know, I talked to a Neil Lewis, who's the highest ranking black member of the NFV, you know, and he wrote this really fascinating Braille monitor article in the wake of, of George Floyd's death, where he's sort of really explicitly trying to reconcile, like Black Lives Matter movement with live the life you want, you know, with with NFB slogans, and it's, it's a tough thing to do, he has a tough job and trying to do that, because because of the thing, you know, that that I'm saying about Riccobono, right, it's like he is blind is the most important characteristic, or where do these other qualities fit? So it's a very contemporary argument. And it's one that I think the the organized blind movement is still very actively wrestling with.   Michael Hingson ** 39:02 I think it's a real tough thing. I think that blindness shouldn't be what defines me, but it's part of what defines me, and it shouldn't be that way. It is one of the characteristics that I happen to have, which is why I prefer that we start recognizing that disability doesn't mean lack of ability. Disability is a characteristic that manifests itself in different ways to people and in our case, blindness as part of that. For Women. Women is being a woman as part of it for men being a man as part of it for being short or tall, or black or whatever. Those are all part of what defines us. I do think that the National Federation of the Blind was an organization that evolved because, as I said earlier, we're not being included in the conversation and I think that for the Federation and blindness is the most important thing and ought to be the most important thing. And I think that we need to be very careful as an organization about that. Because if we get too bogged down in every other kind of characteristic that defines people, and move away too much from dealing with blindness, we will weaken what the message and the goals of the National Federation of the Blind are. But we do need to recognize that blindness isn't the only game in town, like eyesight isn't the only game in town. But for us, blindness is the main game in town, because it's what we deal with as an organization. Well,   Andrew Leland ** 40:40 how do you reconcile that with the idea that you were talking about before with with, you know, with the argument that like, you know, with the historical example of, you know, it's the same fight the suffragettes and like it because it doesn't that kind of, isn't that kind of contradicting that idea that like, having the intersection of identities, you know, and these movements all being linked by some kind of grand or systemic oppression, you know, so it is it is relevant? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 41:06 it is, yeah, and I'm not saying it any way that it's not relevant. What I am saying, though, is the case of the Grimm case, sisters, he wanted their support and support of other supportive other people, Garrison did in terms of dealing with abolition, which was appropriate, their main focus was women's suffrage, but it doesn't mean that they can't be involved in and recognize that we all are facing discrimination, and that we can start shaping more of our messages to be more inclusive. And that's the thing that that I don't think is happening nearly as much as it ought to. The fact is that, it doesn't mean that blind people shouldn't be concerned about or dealing with LGBTQ or color, or gender or whatever. Yeah. But our main common binding characteristic is that we're all blind men. So for us, as an organization, that should be what we mostly focus on. It also doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of and advocate for and fight for other things as well. But as an organization, collectively, the goal really needs to be dealing with blindness, because if you dilute it too much, then you're not dealing with blindness. And the problem with blindness as being a low incidence disability, that's all too easy to make happen. Right?   Andrew Leland ** 42:35 Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting, just thinking about that question of dilution versus strengthening, you know, because I think I think if you ask somebody in the Disability Justice Movement, the dilution happens precisely, with an overemphasis on a single disability, right, and then you lose these like broader coalition's that you can build to, you know, I think I think it comes down to maybe like the way that you are our analysts analyzing the structures of oppression, right, like, right, what is it that's creating that 70% unemployment? Is it something specifically about blindness? Or is it like a broader ableist structure that is connected to a broader racist structure? You know, that's connected to a broader misogynist structure? You know, and I think if you start thinking in those structural terms, then like, coalition building makes a lot more sense, because it's like, I mean, you know, I don't know what kind of political affiliation or what but political orientation to take with us, you know, but certainly the Disability Justice Movement is pretty radically to the left, right. And I think traditionally, the NFB, for instance, has had a lot more socially conservative members and leaders. And so it's, you know, that reconciliation feels almost impossibly vast to to think of like an organization like the NFB taking the kind of like, abolitionist stance that a lot of these disability justice groups take to say, like, actually, capitalism is the problem, right. So yeah, so I mean, the thought experiment only goes so far, like, what like a Disability Justice oriented NFP would look like. But you know, that I think there are young members, you know, and I do think it's a generational thing too. Like, I think there are NF beers in their 20s and 30s, who are really wrestling with those questions right now. And I'm really interested to see what they come up with.   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 I think that the biggest value that the NFB brings overall, and I've actually heard this from some ACB people as well, is that the ENFP has a consistent philosophy about what blindness is and what blindness is. And and that is probably the most important thing that the NFP needs to ensure that it that it doesn't lose. But I think that the whole and the NFP used to be totally As coalition building that goes back to Jernigan and Mauer, although Mauer started to change some of that, and I think it will evolve. But you know, the NFB. And blind people in general have another issue that you sort of brought up in the book, you talk about people who are deaf and hard of hearing, that they form into communities and that they, they have a culture. And we don't see nearly as much of that in the blindness world. And so as a result, we still have blind people or sighted people referring to us and and not ever being called out as blind or visually impaired. But you don't find in the deaf community that people are talking about deaf or hearing impaired, you're liable to be shot. It's deaf or hard of hearing. And yeah, the reality is, it ought to be blind or low vision, because visually impaired is ridiculous on several levels visually, we're not different and impaired. What that's that's a horrible thing to say. But as a as an as a group. I was going to use community, but I but I guess the community isn't, as well formed to deal with it yet. We're not there. And so all too often, we talk about or hear about visually impaired or visual impairment. And that continues to promote the problem that we're trying to eliminate. Mm   Andrew Leland ** 46:22 hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that question of blank community is fascinating. And yeah. And I do think that I mean, you know, from my reading the book, I certainly have found blank community. But, you know, if I really think about it, if I'm really being honest, I think it's more that I've met, it's, you know, my work on the book has given me access to really cool blind people that I have gotten to become friends with, you know, that feels different than, like, welcome to this club, where we meet, you know, on Tuesdays and have our cool like, blind, you know, paragliding meetups, you know, not that not that people aren't doing that, like, then they're a really, you know, I would like to get more if I lived in a more urban center, I'm sure it would be involved in like, you know, the blind running club or whatever, willing to hang out with blind people more regularly, but it doesn't feel like a big community in that way. And it's interesting to think about why. You know, I think one big reason is that it's not, it's not familial, in the same way, you know, Andrew Solomon wrote a really interesting book called far from the tree that gets at this where, you know, like, the when, when, when a child has a different identity than a parent, like, you know, deaf children of hearing adults, you know, there doesn't, there isn't a culture that builds up around that, you know, and it's really like these big deaf families that you have with inherited forms of deafness, or, you know, and then schools for the deaf, that, you know, and with deaf culture in particular, you know, really what we're talking about is language, you know, in sign language, right, creates a whole rich culture around it. Whereas, with hearing blind people, you know, they're more isolated, they're not necessarily automatically you have to, you have to really work to find the other blind people, you know, with, with travel being difficult, it's a lot easier to just like, Get get to the public library to meet up in the first place, and so on. So, yeah, it feels a lot more fractured. And so I think you do see groups more like the NFB or the ACB, who are organizing around political action, rather than, you know, like a culture of folks hanging out going to a movie with open audio description, although, I will say that the weeks that I spent at the Colorado Center for the Blind, you know, which is, you know, you can think of it as like a, you know, it's a training center, but in some ways, it's like an intentional blind community do right where you're like, that's like a blind commune or something. I mean, that is just a beautiful experience, that it's not for everyone in terms of their their training method. But if it is for you, like, wow, like for just such a powerful experience to be in a community, because that is a real community. And it nothing will radically change your sense of what it means to be blind and what it means to be in a black community than then living for a while at a place like that. It was a really transformative experience for me.   Michael Hingson ** 49:11 Do you think that especially as the younger generations are evolving and coming up, that we may see more of a development of a community in the blindness in the blindness world? Or do you think that the other forces are just going to keep that from happening? Well,   Andrew Leland ** 49:30 you know, one of the things that I discovered in writing the book was that, you know, and this is sort of contradicting what I just said, because there there is a blind community. And, you know, I read in the book like, at first I thought that blind techies were another subculture of blindness, like blind birders are blind skateboarders, right. But then the more I looked into it, the more I realized that like being a techie is actually like a kind of a basic feature of being a blind person in the world. You know, and I don't hear if it's 2023 or 1823, you know, because if you think about the problem of blindness, which is access to information, by and large, you know, you basically have to become a self styled information technologist, right? To, to get what you need, whether it's the newspaper, or textbooks or signs, road signs, or whatever else. So. So I do and I do think that like, you know, when my dad was living in the Bay Area in the 90s, you know, when I would go visit him, you know, he was a techie, a sighted techie. And, you know, he would always be part of like, the Berkeley Macintosh user group, just be like, these nerds emailing each other, or, you know, I don't even know if email was around, it was like, late 80s. You know, but people who have like the Mac 512, KS, and they would, they would connect with each other about like, Well, how did you deal with this problem? And like, what kind of serial port blah, blah, blah? And that's a community, right? I mean, those people hang out, they get rise together. And if there's anything like a blind community, it's the blind techie community, you know, and I like to tell the story about Jonathan mosun. I'm sure you've encountered him in your trailer. I know Jonathan. Yeah. You know, so I, when I discovered his podcast, which is now called Living blind, fully blind, fully, yeah. Yeah. I, I was like, oh, okay, here are the conversations I've been looking for, because he will very regularly cover the kind of like social identity questions that I'm interested in, like, you know, is Braille like, is the only way for a blind person to have true literacy through Braille? Or is using a screen reader literacy, you know? Or like, is there such a thing as blind pride? And if so, what is it? I was like? These are the kinds of questions I was asking. And so I was so delighted to find it. But then in order to, in order to get to those conversations, you have to sit through like 20 minutes of like, one password on Windows 11 stopped working when I upgraded from Windows 10 to Windows 11. And so like, what, you know, if you what Jaws command, can I use in and I was like, why is this? Why is there like 20 minutes of Jaws chat in between these, like, really interesting philosophical conversations. And eventually, I realized, like, oh, because that's like, what this community needs and what it's interested in. And so in some ways, like the real blind community is like the user group, which I think is actually a beautiful thing. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 52:14 Well, it is definitely a part of it. And we do have to be information technologists, in a lot of ways. Have you met? And do you know, Curtis Chang,   Andrew Leland ** 52:23 I've met him very briefly at an NFB convention. So Curtis,   Michael Hingson ** 52:28 and I have known each other Gosh, since the 1970s. And we both are very deeply involved in a lot of things with technology. He worked in various aspects of assistive technology worked at the NFB center for a while and things like that, but he always talks about how blind people and and I've heard this and other presentations around the NFB, where blind people as Curtis would put it, have to muddle through and figure out websites. And, and the fact is, we do it, because there are so many that are inaccessible. I joined accessibe two years ago, two and a half years ago. And there are a lot of people that don't like the artificial, intelligent process that accessibe uses. It works however, and people don't really look far enough that we're not, I think, being as visionary as we ought to be. We're not doing what we did with Ray Kurzweil. And look, when the Kurzweil project started with the NFB Jernigan had to be dragged kicking and screaming into it, but Ray was so emphatic. And Jim Gasol at the Washington office, finally convinced kindred again to let him go see, raised machine, but the rules were that it didn't matter what Ray would put on the machine to read it and had to read what Gasol brought up. Well, he brought it did and the relationship began, and it's been going ever since and, and I worked, running the project and the sense on a day to day basis, I traveled I lived out of hotels and suitcases for 18 months as we put machines all over and then I went to work for Ray. And then I ended up having to go into sales selling not the reading machine, but the data entry machine, but I guess I kept to consistently see the vision that Ray was bringing, and I think he helped drag, in some ways the NFB as an organization, more into technology than it was willing to do before. Interesting.   Andrew Leland ** 54:27 Yeah, I heard a similar comment. The one thing I got wrong in the first edition of the book that I'm correcting for subsequent reprints, but I really bungled the description of the Opticon. And my friend, Robert Engel Britton, who's a linguist at Rice University, who collects opera cones. I think he has got probably like a dozen of them in his house. You know, he helped me you know, because I didn't have a chance to use one. Right he helped me get a better version of it. But he also sent me a quote, I think it was from Jernigan was similar thing where like, I think they were trying to get the public I'm included with, you know, voc rehab, so that that students could not voc rehab or whatever like so that students could get blind students could use them. And it was the same thing of like, you know, this newfangled gizmo is not going to help, you know, Braille is what kids need. So I do that, that's all to say that that makes sense to me that resistance to technology, you know, and it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a sort of conservative stance of like, we understand that what blind people need are is Braille and access to, you know, equal access. And don't don't try to give us any anything else. And you know, and I think, to be fair, like, even though the Opticon sounded like an incredibly useful tool, as is, of course, the Kurzweil Reading Machine and everything that followed from it. There. There is, you know, talking, I talked to Josh Meili, for the book, who's who now works at Amazon, you know, he had this great story about his mentor, Bill, Gary, who, who would, who would basically get a phone call, like once a week from a well, very well meaning like retired sighted engineer, who would say like, oh, you know, what the blind need? It's like the laser cane, right? Or the Yeah, it's like, basically like a sippy cup for blind people like so that they don't spill juice all over themselves. And, you know, and Gary would very patiently be like, Oh, actually, they don't think that that would be helpful to do probably, yeah. Talk to a blind person first, maybe before you spend any more time trying to invent something that blind people don't need. So I think that resistance to like newfangled technology, there's a good reason for it. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 56:26 there is but the willingness to take the Opticon. Look, I think the fastest I ever heard of anybody reading with an optical was like 70 or 80 words a minute, and there are only a few people who did that. Yeah. You know, Candy Lynnville, the daughter of the engineer who invented it, could and Sue Mel Rose, who was someone I knew, was able to and a few people were but what the Opticon did do even if it was slow, yeah, it was it still gave you access to information that you otherwise didn't get access to. And, and I had an optic on for a while. And the point was, you could learn to read and learn printed letters and learn to read them. It wasn't fast. But you could still do it. Yeah. And so it, it did help. But it wasn't going to be the panacea. I think that tele sensory systems wanted it to be you know, and then you talked about Harvey Lauer who also develop and was involved in developing the stereo toner, which was the audience since the audio version of the optic comm where everything was represented audio wise, and, and I spent a lot of time with Harvey Harvey at Heinz a long time ago. But the the fact is, I think the question is valid is listening, and so on literacy is literacy, like Braille. And I think there is a difference there is, are you illiterate, if you can't read Braille, you point out the issues about grammar, the issues about spelling and so on. And I think that there is a valid reason for people learning Braille at the Colorado Center, they would tell you, for senior blind people, you may not learn much Braille, but you can learn enough to be able to take notes and things like that, or, or put labels on your, your soup cans, and so on. So it's again, going to be different for different people. But we are in a society where Braille has been so de emphasized. And that's the fault of the educational system for not urging and insisting that more people be able to use Braille. And that's something that we do have to deal with. So I think there is a literacy problem when people don't learn braille. But I also think that, again, there are a lot of things that Braille would be good for, but using audio makes it go faster. It doesn't mean you shouldn't learn braille, though, right? Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 58:51 no, it's another I think it's interesting. And it's a related idea, this, this sense that technology, you know, this like, just sort of wave your hands and say the word technology as a sort of panacea, where I think, you know, it's, it's a tragic story where, where people will say, Oh, well, you know, little Johnny has, you know, some vision. So like, he could just use technology, like he doesn't need Braille. And it's fascinating to me, because I never really felt it. And maybe it's because I encountered Braille at a point in my development as a blind person that I really was hungry for it. But, you know, people talk about Braille the way they talked about the white cane, like the white cane, I felt so much shame about using in public, and it's such, it's just so stigmatized, whereas Braille, I just always thought it was kind of cool. But you know, you hear it so much from parents where they it's just like their heartbreak seeing their child reading with their fingers, which is, you know, and so as a result, they're like, why don't I just buy like a gigantic magnifier, that maybe in five years, you're not gonna be able to use anyway, but like, at least you're reading the same type of book that   Michael Hingson ** 59:56 half hour or 45 minutes until you start getting headaches. Exactly. And that, you know, I worked on a proposal once. I was an evaluator for it. We were in a school in Chicago, and one of the teachers talked about Sally who could see and Johnny, who was totally blind, literally, it was Sally and Johnny. And she said, Sally gets to read print, Johnny has to read Braille. Sally couldn't read print very fast. her eyesight wasn't good. Yeah, she got to read print. And Johnny had to read Braille. Yeah, it's the kind of thing that we we see all the time. And it's so unfortunate. So yeah, I, I do understand a lot of the technology resistance. But again, people like Ray helped us vision a little differently. But unfortunately, getting that conversation to other people, outside of the NFB community, like teachers and so on, is so hard because so many people are looking at it from a science point of view and not recognizing it as it should be. The the NFB did a video that did it. Several, they have had a whole series of things regarding Braille. But they interviewed a number of people who had some residual vision, who were never allowed to learn to read Braille. And invariably, these people say how horrible it was that they didn't get to learn to read Braille, they learned it later. And they're, they're reading slower than they really should. But they see the value of it. And it's important that we hopefully work to change some of those conversations. Yeah,   Andrew Leland ** 1:01:33 I mean, it gets back to our earlier in our conversation a

Today's guest is Spencer Hilligoss.   Spencer Hilligoss is a passive investor who deployed 7-figures of his own capital into passive investments in the past 6 years. In 2019, Spencer retired from a 13-year tech career to fully focus on Madison Investing, his passive investing club.   Show summary: In this podcast episode, Spencer shares his personal journey from working in technology companies to retiring in 2019 to focus on his passive investing club. He emphasizes the need for clarity and vigilance in investing, advising investors to thoroughly vet teams and operators before investing. Spencer also provides advice on how to communicate with and motivate investors during challenging times, using two investor profiles as examples.   -------------------------------------------------------------- Intro (00:00:00) Spencer's background and retirement (00:01:26) Clarity and vigilance in passive investing (00:04:25) Twists and Turns in Investing Journey (00:14:05) Positioning for the Next 12 to 24 Months (00:16:10) Investing at the Wrong Time (00:19:19) Motivating Investors to Invest (00:20:06) Understanding Investor's Circumstances (00:20:41) Educating Towards Future State (00:21:16) -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Spencer:  Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shilligoss/   Web: www.madisoninvesting.com   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Spencer Hilligoss (00:00:00) - The goal setting process, like if there were to be. What is the most active part of being a passive investor? Because there are active parts. Right? And this is the misnomer. I think it is sitting down and just gut checking with the financials. What is your true north? Or I'll take out the platitude like what is your financial target you're aiming for? Just like if you're inside of a business, if you're going to use to work in the corporate world, anyone who's in a W2 world, if you manage a profit and loss, if you manage a financial plan, you got to go and sit there and say, hey, last year we thought the target like a win would be that dollar amount. Well, this year is looking a little different. So let's revise like what are where is our bearing here.   Sam Wilson (00:00:44) - Welcome to the how to scale commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor. We'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.   Sam Wilson (00:00:58) - Spencer. Helios is a passive investor who has deployed seven figures of his own capital into passive investments in the past six years. In 2019, he retired from a 13 year tech career to fully focus on Madison investing his passive investing club. If you don't know, Spencer also came back on the show. Gosh, what was that? Spencer episode 274 I think. So sometime early 2021. We've done about 600 episodes since the last time you were on the show, so it's a pleasure to have you back on the show today.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:01:26) - Yeah. Wow, that's a fast two years. Sam. Thank you for having me back on. Absolutely.   Sam Wilson (00:01:32) - The pleasure's mine, and it is a fast two years. Spencer, before we get into the heart of the show, though, there are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show. You have answered these previously, but we're going to have you answer them again in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Spencer Hilligoss (00:01:48) - Oh yeah man, there's still fun questions.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:01:50) - Now I'm probably going to get a different lens on it though, as always, as life evolves. So where I am now actually, let's go back. I started growing up as a punk rock and metal kid playing in bands. My dad was a real estate broker for 30 years. I was working for him as a kid, which is why I ran screaming into technology companies. I live in Silicon Valley in the Bay area, California. I have, you know, grown up for 13 years professionally building and leading large operations and sales groups for fintech companies, financial tech companies. As you mentioned, Sam, I retired in 2019, five months before Covid, and that was not part of the plan, but I would say grateful now more than ever to be leading Madison Investing, which is our passive investing club, as you mentioned up front, where we help other folks walk the same path that we have. You know, I know that right before we hit record, I was sharing a quick story about highlight of the year so far.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:02:45) - We just got back from spending six weeks in Portugal as a whole family, that type of thing, that type of lifestyle decoupling from a geography, taking our kids who are six and nine and Jennifer and I are both living and working abroad with that flexibility. That's what's enabled by passive investing done right. And of course, it's not always like turnkey. Across the the journey. There's a lot of twists and turns. You got to pull out your figurative machete and hack through the the forest, as it were, and find clarity along the way. But hopefully I didn't exceed my 90s on that one.   Sam Wilson (00:03:17) - No, I think shoot, if you weren't, if you were, if you were over 90s, it was worth listening to. So I appreciate you giving us that. That recap yet again and again. If you didn't hear Spencer's first show, go back and check that one out, because I know we're going to cover some very different things. Maybe then what we covered there on that show. You know, I think one of the things and I'm not going to hopefully offend you here by saying this, but I feel like everyone has these grandiose ideas of what passive investing is.   Sam Wilson (00:03:44) - So they're like, oh, man, you know, we're going to be a passive investor and we're going to just cash checks all day long, and it's going to be amazing. But I think the experience is wildly different. I certainly know it has been for me, as I look at all the different passive investments I have, I go, okay, you know, there's some there doing well, some that are doing but not doing well, and then there's some that are performing very poorly. And I look at that and I go, gosh, that's that's it's kind of painful in some respects to look across all of them go, not everything's doing great. What would you say a current investors outlook and kind of mood should be about passive investing right now, because it doesn't always necessarily translate into six weeks in Portugal.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:04:25) - Oh my gosh, what a killer question to open with and for people listening. Sam didn't prep me for that question ahead of time. That's just a hell of a good question. Clarity and vigilance.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:04:36) - You know, I think clarity, first and foremost, it comes down to goals. And everyone out there hopefully is starting from that point. As a quick refresher, Sam, clarity to me means sitting down 2016. I'm working full time, deep into my career and climbing that ladder, making great W-2 income. Jennifer Morimoto, who is my my spouse, my wife, and my co-founder and, you know, co-pilot in life, you know, mother of our kids across the board. We work together in life and work. And we sat down and took a whole weekend to literally sit down and say while working full time, both of us in separate careers, what is the dollar amount per month that we could that we need to hit? Full passive. To cover our needs. And that was a scary exercise, man. That was a scary exercise. And it's something that I think I don't go into lightly, because that weekend had tears that we can had reconciliation and had laughter, and we had to get a sitter to get the kids out of the house just to do it right.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:05:37) - But that's where it started. We set that goal with a 15 year time horizon to remove all excuses. And so by clarity, what I mean is it sounds so clean and simple to say, I'm going to hit 8000 bucks in passive income, which I believe at that time was our monthly income, passive income target. And, you know, I'll qualify it by saying everyone has different expectations in life. Like, we don't want to we don't I don't need a jet. I'm a pretty simple dude. Like I got some guitars. I like plucking a guitar, but I don't need a boat and no judgments on those who want more. But that was our goal back then, and we hit that goal in the last about year and a half, two years ago, we hit that goal in full passive. And we're we're so proud of hitting that. That was hard. But we said 15 years on, the original goal came back shortly after that exercise in 2016 and said, well, that's just too long.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:06:29) - You know, you and I were chatting about our kids right before we hit record today, Sam. And I'll say that like, we wanted to catch some of the magic years, as it were, spending time with our boys while they were still pretty young, and being able to have that type of lifestyle where we could spend more time. And that is what got that clarity for me. So thanks for listening to that context. I just think it's so key for people to sit there instead of saying, man, look at that great looking Facebook paid ad that presents this two x equity multiple, right on a killer looking deal, a beautiful marketing deck. And you're like, that's my ticket to financial freedom. Be like, slow down, get clear. Get clear on why you're looking at this thing. And then don't worry about asset class yet. Come back to it later. Those are the lessons I wish I could impart on myself earlier on. One other thing I'll say is like 2023 for sure has presented some challenges, right? And you hit it earlier.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:07:19) - I'd say that things like understanding the basics of what is the purpose of this one investment, what's the goal for the money? Is it a growth play? If a person is working, like talk to one of our investors in our club who's actively investing with us, has for years, and he says, well, in 5 to 7 years I want to get X dollar amount. By fully passive, you know, 5 or 7 years out. And that's a very thoughtful, responsible goal for that investor. That's a cash flow investor who is making killer W-2 income at a day job, doesn't need it now, wants to have it later so they can still potentially afford to go and invest for growth. They don't need the cash flow now, but if that same investor puts a bunch of money, puts 100 K into a deal, and they have a pot distribution right now. And they're going to get great growth on the back end of that thing. But they don't have a distribution coming in now for a monthly income.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:08:13) - That's a mismatch. So I'll take a pause there. But just wanted to kind of cover at least the vigilance on the clarity.   Sam Wilson (00:08:18) - No I think that's great. I think that's really, really great. You touched on the term goal for the money, which I think is is a it's a powerful. It's a powerful idea because even though we have financial planners and we have people that lay out again all the, hey, you know, this is what you're going to have if you invest. And of course, we've all been through that drill with with our stockbrokers and everybody else where they show, you know, projected where it's going and what it's going to do. I think a lot of times we missed that same exercise. At least I have personally in my own and passive investments around the country in commercial real estate because it's like, oh, that's cool. Like you said, that's a cool deal, I like that. Why not? Let's throw 50 grand or 100 grand at it and see where it goes.   Sam Wilson (00:08:59) - Like, this is going to be fun. But then you look at it and you're like, wait, did that actually line up with what I wanted to do in 5 or 7 years? Because that requires discipline and time. It requires those weekends that you're talking about going, okay, you know, getting a spreadsheet of everything, or maybe it's even more complex than that. But if everything where it's going, what you're expected, payouts are getting them. I mean, that's hard work. I've got a sheet like that. It's hard work. Comparing zero eight. We got a distribution this month. Did it line up with what was pro forma? Which of these are doing what they say they're going to do. And that's that's just it becomes its own kind of animal that. I don't know. Speak to us on that front if you can.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:09:37) - Oh, man, I love this topic. I would say you're nailing it. And by the way, I'm so guilty of the same thing. You know, you see a great looking deal.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:09:45) - Or maybe you just love the team, like, like, oh, I love that operator. They have such a tight operation. Their reporting is killer. Their financial reporting is transparent. They have experience. They've got repeatable process. They've got the exits, full cycle deals, all the works. Right. And I'm like, oh cool, let's drop money. And then I'm like, well, that wasn't so much of a cash flow play. I mean, it reminds me of the very first property we bought is a duplex sitting in 45 minutes from our house, where I'm sitting right now in Vallejo, California, and that thing costs 430 grand. And that's a California property for you. We bought it years ago, cost us six figures. It's down payment and a cash flow is $200 a month. That is not a cash flow win by any measure. That's a quick way to use the player capital, right? But I bring that up as one example of like where we started to where we are now.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:10:35) - And I would say now actually we're going through a refresh of this very exercise. And it's related, I think, to what you brought up a moment ago, Sam, you know, the goal setting process, like if there were to be what is the most active part of being a passive investor? Because there are active parts, right? And this is the misnomer. I think it is sitting down and just gut checking with the financials. What is your true north? Or I'll take out the platitude like what is your financial target you're aiming for? Just like if you're inside of a business, if you're what I used to work in the corporate world, anyone who's in a W2 world, if you manage a profit and loss, if you manage a financial plan, you got to go and sit there and say, hey, last year we thought the target like a win would be that dollar amount. Well, this year is looking a little different. So let's revise like what are where is our bearing here.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:11:28) - And so we're going through that now to say well you got to track it in a spreadsheet. You've got to sit down and say what's the monthly income expected from this. Are we up? Are we down. How much do we need? Are we off track? Do we need to reserve some capital because our family is going to face some some headwinds or maybe tailwinds. Maybe there's good news coming in. You know, just got some unexpected great news on, like, an exit from a deal that is like a mobile home park refinance that's coming in. And I was like, wow, that's the first, I think, capital event that's occurred in 2023 personally. So like that was that was quite unexpected, you know. So I'm like, woo, that's great to see. And we'll see a lot more of that hopefully between 20 and 24 but most likely 2025. So it's tracking and knowing where you're at on that figurative map and sitting down and saying, let's put some financial assumptions behind it, like, what are we going to get out of this deal? Exits, cash flow.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:12:18) - What does take work? It takes some work, you know.   Sam Wilson (00:12:22) - It does take work. And I think it takes work. And it also, like you said, figuring out, you know, what your true north is in this and then and then picking the right opportunities that kind of make up that matrix of deals that you should or should not be investing in. So I think that's just knowing just knowing what it is you're looking for. And again, not being guilty of following my footsteps and just going, oh that's cool. Like I love the sponsor. I love the deal. I mean, why shouldn't we do it? Like, because maybe it doesn't fit the plan. I was having a call with a with a. Friend slash business guy here in Memphis yesterday. And he goes, he goes, Sam. He goes. My answer should be to, you know, he goes, it's no. Because for these two reasons he goes, but yet I just can't help but talk to you about it because this is really fascinating.   Sam Wilson (00:13:11) - So let's keep going. And I'm like, Bill, you know exactly what your answer should be. And I appreciated that. It was it was just a funny response. He's like, my answer should be no because I don't know anything about it and it doesn't fit my box, but I want to hear more like so anyway, we all.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:13:27) - Do it.   Sam Wilson (00:13:27) - We all do it, but we all do it. Yeah, we all do it. Not falling into that trap. So that's really cool. We've talked a little bit about defining temperament in our in our investments, being a tempered investor if you will, finding out goals for the money currently. Tell me tell me a little bit about this. Like what you said that there's two things. One, you said you've experienced some twists and turns in your investing journey. I think you said since 2019. So maybe if you can give us a couple examples of what those twists and turns are, and then tell us how you guys are positioning yourselves to really take advantage of the next 12 to 24 months.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:14:05) - Yeah. Happy to. So. Twists and turns first. Abbreviated version. I can define this in three quick phases. This is not how it felt. Real time. Of course. Life has crazy chapters. You don't know where you're at on the map sometimes until you come out the other side of it, right? So phase one still working full time. This is back in about 2016. We bought that rental that pricey for 30 K rental. I just told you about California and we're like, wow, we're going to run out of money real quick this way. Not in line with our cash flow goals. We then got more comfortable to really took our time and looked at more rentals. Still didn't hadn't quite moved on beyond that rental phase. And rentals are fine. They're a great wealth builder, but. They are semi passive at best. Right and I will happy to debate anyone on that topic. Anyone who's owned rentals can attest to that, property manager or not. They're semi passive. So we got up to five long distance rentals and they were out in Kansas City, Kansas City, Missouri and 60 K average purchase price 250 bucks a month.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:15:08) - Average cash flow. That's a heck of a lot better economics than the first one. Those were maybe, at best, C-minus neighborhood. Um, you don't really learn what that means till you do it.   Sam Wilson (00:15:21) - Right?   Spencer Hilligoss (00:15:22) - And, you know, you get you get it. So we learned that way in terms of overhead, you know. That was more work than we expected it to be. Even with property managers, the economics got a little bit kicked every year because the tenants would beat up the place a little bit, and then we had turnover costs, etcetera. So we sold those properties, and then eventually we started investing as passive investors purely as LPs and some multifamily deals. And we're talking in Alabama and in Texas and a few other great markets, eventually multifamily self-storage. And those twists and turns initially, I would say were super important. You know, like a little expensive. You pay tuition with experience and scars. You also pay it with physical capital. And I would just say that those those were not, in hindsight, ideal if you're trying to maximize return, but they were necessary for us to get to where we are now.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:16:10) - And so I look at those also, once we started investing as LPs, got some killer exits from those. This is around the 2018, 20, 2019. And then we're like, well. There's so many colleagues and so many folks in my network that were saying, Spencer, like, we don't want to fly out to these properties like, you're, you know, this stuff. They're saying this to me like, you know, this stuff, you're flying out of these assets, you're walking them. You want you know, how to underwrite them. All this stuff. And I'd work so hard to get there to do that. Why don't you? What? You help us, you know? And so then we started medicine investing around that time. And it's just the club dynamic of being an educator and a resource for folks to see who who are these teams we invest in. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's always clear. It doesn't mean it's always easy. You know, like like taking the time to get to know partners and operators is it is art and science.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:17:05) - You know, it's, you know, vetting teams and humans is always going to be that way. And so I would say those were some of the whiz bang version of like the twists and turns along the way that brought us to where we are now. Um, I'd say that looking forward to your second question, though, right now is a unique time. You know, I think before this journey over the past seven years, you know, coming out of a tech career, Sam, like, I wouldn't have known how to take in the feedback and the mentorship that we hear, the wisdom that we hear when it comes to when's a great time to invest? Like when do the wealthy people, the wealthiest of the wealthy, the Warren Buffett's like, when do they make the biggest returns? When do they maximize their wealth building? And I wouldn't have understood. Like, you got to go out there and take informed risks during challenging volatility times, during economic headwind times. And that is why right now we're walking into a killer buying opportunity.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:18:02) - We're walking into a killer investing landscape. And it's it's the tough part for every investor is to look through the noise. There's a ton of very real noise occurring right now in the headlines, of course, globally and nationally. But I would say take what you need from the news, but then look past. It has best you can, you know. And so we see opportunities to buy and invest at the asset classes that we love. Multifamily large apartment communities largely in the Sunbelt. With some of the Rockies still love self-storage. We've been focusing on self-storage now since 2019 as a sister asset class, along with multifamily and a couple of other niche non-real estate asset classes. But I would say that that's really what it's about is just being vigilant about not pouncing on a deal is because it looks like it's great from a team that we know you got to go do it deeper. And clearly I have to say this as well. One last thing is just like the interest rate has to be the debt, the loan, the loan structure has to make sense in the current climate.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:19:04) - It has to be either in a suitable loan. You know, there's a lot of that going on on the few deals there are, or it has to be some kind of unique situation where the seller is distressed and you're getting a very significant discount, but tough to find those.   Sam Wilson (00:19:19) - It really is. But those are those are things. And I like your, your you seem to be a more patient investor maybe than what some of the, some of the, you know, fury that's been out there in the last couple of years, you seem to take more time in what it is that you're investing in. And I think you're right here in the next couple of years, we're going to see we're going to see some great opportunities come down the pipe. But I guess here's a question for you. Most investors, the book, Howard Marks wrote the book, Mastering the Market Cycle. And in that he basically says that historically, investors invest at the completely wrong time. Like if you just take the data and you overlay it with the economic profile, he goes, they're always investing at the top and selling at the bottom.   Sam Wilson (00:20:06) - He goes just right the way they do it. So how do you in the times of how do you I mean, I'll get to my question, but how do you communicate to your investors and then motivate them to invest at the times when it's like when everybody else is out yelling, run! You know, there's blood on the street, everybody's going to die and you're going to go, hey, man, you know, actually, right now is the perfect time to buy this distressed asset. You communicate that in such a way that it then compels your investors to invest.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:20:41) - Yeah. Gosh, that's a fun topic, man. I love the reference for the Marx book. I think understanding the posture as like as a passive investor myself, you know, as a passive investor yourself as well, it comes down to understanding fundamentally that like motivation to invest in motivation to act is is probably the incorrect way to look at it. It's really like, does a person understand squarely where they are? If you're trying to educate like they understand, this is probably going to lead back to a goals comment.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:21:16) - But I would say that it starts with just holding up the figurative mirror and saying, here's where I'm at. You know, here's an investor's circumstances. And if they are comfortable where they are, you're really not going be able to prompt action and you don't want to. I'm not interested in trying to compel someone to go and invest in something that is not fit for their portfolio or fit for their their goals. I think really what it comes down to is helping them understand the future state, understanding the future state. What I mean by that is where is the life they want to be, right? Like in three years, five years, seven years, whatever that time horizon could be. And if that means, you know, let's take two profiles. I'll just keep them anonymous and kind of abstracted here. But like profile one most common one, I would say a fellow investors that we work and invest alongside with W-2 employees, at least one significant W-2 income coming into the household likely to if they're in California.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:22:10) - Absolutely to because it's just too expensive here to have one usually. So they're sitting there going, I don't necessarily need to quit my job right now. That profile of dual income with kids, California or West Coast pricing market, they're thinking in maybe five, seven, maybe ten years. Then we want to have some optionality, because perhaps they're aging out of the tech career because ageism is a thing, and eventually they want to have some kind of safety net. So they have to think about these goals. And so educating toward that future state absolutely is the most important thing. And then connecting the dots backwards from that, like reverse engineering where do they want to be. Similarly, it's going to sound familiar, probably to where Jennifer and I were at, you know, years ago. It's like where we where were we when we started holding up that figurative mirror? Looking across, auditing our income sources, auditing our wealth, picture all that stuff, and then setting a real clear, crystal clear vision of like, well, where do we want to be? You know, what kind of lifestyle do we want to have? What kind of options do we want to have? That all applies for people who are working, and they have to work currently for their income profile.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:23:17) - Two high net worth folks, folks who, you know, maybe they exited a business that they built. Maybe they own a company actively, but they're taking more of a backseat while the next generation takes it over. You know, all that profile of so many different high net worth folks out there. But I would say that is more of a discussion of hedging downside risk in a discussion of capital preservation and understanding, like, yeah, I absolutely agree. It's a unique time when you're looking over there at the treasuries and you're saying, wow, that looks like a super safe 5%. Well, what percentage of their portfolio are they trying to allocate toward that? And also, is it really 5% that they want or are they looking at that 5% a little bit too myopically. Are they are they overanalyzing and just using that as their, their, their Uber excuse for analysis paralysis because they just don't want to go and do the mental work across the market right now to think, oh, there are excellent deals that can produce double, triple plus whatever you're getting on a treasury, you know.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:24:17) - So not getting probably getting a little too nerdy here probably for that one Sam. But that's a fun question.   Sam Wilson (00:24:22) - That's awesome Spencer, thank you for taking the time to break. Break that down. And a like I like the the the the phrase you said educating to that future state. And again I probably misused the words not motivate or compel. But it's one of those things. How do you get people off the fence. Yeah.   Sam Wilson (00:24:37) - Yeah yeah.   Sam Wilson (00:24:38) - And it's and it's and that's because again, we don't want people investing. And I've told people that I've told people before I said, no, this just isn't for you like this. This deal is not for you. So please don't invest. Yeah. You can just sense it. But, you know, I do think it is important, though, to see people when they're stuck in that analysis paralysis going, oh my gosh. Like I'm just going to sit here because everything looks so scary. And I think you've you've made some really valid points there on that that I won't rehash and kill it because you did.   Sam Wilson (00:25:04) - You did a great job really explaining that. So thank you again for taking the time here to come back on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you back on. If our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Spencer Hilligoss (00:25:17) - Yeah. No thank you, Sam, this has been awesome to reconnect. So Madison Investing.com, that's our website and folks can find some educational content there. We put up there monthly. They can also set up time to chat with me. Happy to be a sounding board on their passive investing strategy.   Sam Wilson (00:25:31) - Fantastic. Madison Investing.com. We'll put that there in the show, notes. Spencer. Thank you again for taking the time to come on the show today.   Sam Wilson (00:25:38) - I do appreciate it.   Spencer Hilligoss (00:25:39) - Yeah. Thank you Sam, really great to see you.   Sam Wilson (00:25:41) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a.   Sam Wilson (00:25:46) - Favor.   Sam Wilson (00:25:46) - And subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen.   Sam Wilson (00:25:54) - If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.

No longer is it a foregone conclusion that the Detroit Lions will run away with the NFC North. With a convincing victory on Thanksgiving Day, the Green Bay Packers didn't only pull themselves back into the playoff race — they've got a shot to catch the Lions. Ahead, they'll host the Chiefs, Buccaneers and Bears and travel to the Giants, Panthers and Vikings. Starting, first, with the defending champs. However this 2023 season shakes out, Matt LaFleur and Brian Gutekunst must love what they see in their new franchise quarterback. On the Ty & Bob Pod — with our resident Hall of Fame sports writer Bob McGinn — we again explore the NFC North in great detail. * How Jordan Love shredded the Lions secondary.* Dan Campbell isn't hitting the panic button. He always knows exactly what to say.* It'll be hard to pull Jonathan Owens off the field, regardless of who's healthy at safety.* How the Packers' defensive front beat up the Lions' mighty O-Line. Penei Sewell allowed six pressures — unheard of. Campbell has pegged Sewell the best player on the entire roster. * There's still hope in Detroit to go the distance. Don't bail yet. McGinn explains.* Did the clock strike midnight on Joshua Dobbs? This was ugly. * You heard it here first: The Chicago Bears roster is better than most think — at least on defense. They got after Minnesota.* A look back at a 2007 Packers-Chiefs game at Arrowhead and, more specifically, why Tony Gonzalez doesn't get the love he deserves. Gosh, did I gain a whole new appreciation for the tight end working on “Blood and Guts.” He forced the sport to change, even if it meant a near-brawl with Mike Mularkey.You can listen to the show here at GoLongTD.com and everywhere you pod, including Apple and Spotify, by linking up your account. Thanks, everyone.Also, icymi, Brett Favre had a lot to say about Love, the Packers and the state of the football in lieu of Tom Brady's criticism. Go Long is your home for longfom journalism. Subscribers can access everything. Thank you for joining our community: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.golongtd.com/subscribe

Welcome to the PlayStation Daily Podcast! Today I'm sharing my reasons for wanting to replay a game. Why did I play Horizon Zero Dawn multiple times? Is it worth it to play The Witcher III: Wild Hunt multiple times? Heck yes it is. We'll answer Arthur's question on the show! You can follow my PS5 journey on Instagram & Threads at psdailypod: https://www.threads.net/@psdailypod. Or send me an email at playstationdailypod@gmail.com and I'll respond to it on the show!

What do you get when you blend athletic skill with a love for weather? An elite ninja warrior, of course! Joe Moravsky is a meteorologist and the manager of the Stamford Ninja Academy in Connecticut. He has appeared on multiple seasons of the hit NBC series "American Ninja Warrior" and is one of the show's most successful contestants. Moravsky shares his unique story and discusses his background in weather and athletics on this week's episode. We want to hear from you! Have a question for the meteorologists? Call 609-272-7099 and leave a message. You might hear your question and get an answer on a future episode! You can also email questions or comments to podcasts@lee.net. About the Across the Sky podcast The weekly weather podcast is hosted on a rotation by the Lee Weather team: Matt Holiner of Lee Enterprises' Midwest group in Chicago, Kirsten Lang of the Tulsa World in Oklahoma, Joe Martucci of the Press of Atlantic City, N.J., and Sean Sublette of the Richmond Times-Dispatch in Virginia. Episode transcript Note: The following transcript was created by Headliner and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically: Ninja Warrior Weatherman Forecasts His Future Lee Enterprise National Weather podcast features Joe Moravsky from American Ninja Warrior Joe Martucci: Welcome back to another episode of the across the Sky Podcast, our Lee Enterprise National Weather podcast. We are joined with you from our meteorologist across the country. With us, today, Matt Holiner in Chicagoland, Sean Sublette over in Richmond, Virginia. Kirsten could not be with us today, but he will be back soon enough, of course, as we, go through the months and the year ahead, guys. So we've done sports in weather before, but we've never actually interviewed somebody who does sports and is a meteorologist. And we're going to have that for the first time today, as we welcome on Joe Morvasky from American Ninja Warrior. They call him the Weatherman, not just because that's what they just decide to call him, but he is a meteorologist. He got a meteorology degree, and we're very happy to have him. Matt Holiner: Yeah, there are not many meteorologists who are also athletes. We're kind of a nerdy bunch. And so, athletics is, for most of us. Most of us, it's, not our forte. We're more, into the books a little bit. The sciency nerds. Although I'd like to think we're the cool science nerds. We do focus on the cool part of science. Meteorology, I think, is the one that more people are like, oh, I like that kind of science. Maybe not so much the physics and chemistry. So I would say we were a cooler science, but, not too many of us athletically inclined. I'm certainly one. So it was really cool to chat with him about how he mixed these two worlds, how he kind of broke the mold of a meteorologist and really, got into the athletic side and how he got involved with American Ninja warrior, because that is very much a niche we're talking about in the sports world. That is a very big niche. So chatting with him about his interest in weather and also how he also has gone on this athletic path was really cool. Sean Sublette: Yeah, it's nice to see that because so many times, as you mentioned, Matt, we kind of get pigeonholed, if you will, into this is what a meteorologist or weatherman or whoever is like. This is what they're like for me, a little bit older. It was really kind of cool to see Cantore, the Weather Channel rise into popularity. Kind of gave our geekdom a little more street cred, if you will. So that's nice to see. And, of course, look, Jim is buff. I mean, dude is. Matt Holiner: That's just the way of the world. Sean Sublette: But it's good to show that this community of people who geek out about weather, do have a broader focus to have other interests. And, I think that's very important in this day of age. And certainly the stuff Joe is doing and how long he's been doing it honestly surprised me. So really looking forward to this conversation. Matt Holiner: Yeah. Joe Martucci: Well, let's dive into it here, get you into the episode with Joe Moravsky from American Ninja Warrior on the across the Sky podcast. American Ninja Warrior Joe Moravsky is the Weatherman Joe Martucci: All right, and it is time for our interview here with a very special guest. Don't know if we've ever, had this segment of meteorology before. How about American Ninja Warrior in Weather? I don't know if we've had that combination our podcast before. It might be a first, but we are very pleased to welcome on Joe Moravsky to the podcast. He is an American Ninja warrior athlete known as the Weatherman. He has competed since season five of American Ninja Warrior and has twice been the last ninja standing, beating everybody in the country. He is also a husband and father of three and currently manager of Stanford Ninja Academy in Stanford, Connecticut. He also got his meteorology degree from Western Connecticut State University. Joe, I think I'm saying that right. welcome to the pod. We appreciate it. Joe Morvasky: Thank you. Thank you guys for having me. It's funny, kind of breaking barriers, right? We got the sports world and the weather world, and we put them together with American, Ninja Warrior, the weatherman here. So, it's always, they're very unique conversations I end up having because, people are like, what is the weatherman? How does that have to do with Ninja? So I'm sure we're going to get into that today. Joe Martucci: Yeah, definitely. Well, I'll tell You what, Joe. So when I do, talks at schools and it's about different careers in weather or just kind of talking about what I do as a meteorologist, one of the slides I have is different segments of meteorology. So I talk about working in the National Weather Service, working in media, and then I say, sometimes you get to become an American Ninja warrior. And I use a photo of you in my PowerPoint presentation. So thank you for helping me talk to kids, all across New Jersey here. Joe Morvasky: No problem. We're on the same team, man. Joe Martucci: We're on the same, you know, weather is a small field. Joe Lacey says he always wanted to be a meteorologist Joe Martucci: So, let me ask you about the weather part first. How did you get interested in weather? Was there something that just bit you? Ah, like a lot of people. Did you fall into it? Joe Morvasky: How did it work out? I'm sure just like all of you here, would agree there are so many stories, right? So many stories that got us into weather. I would say the first memory I have of just recognizing, the wow factor of weather was when I was a kid, my mom was telling me, I remember driving. I remember this day so perfectly, or this moment so perfectly. It's such a simple moment, but it was so powerful to me. We're sitting in the car. I must have know, maybe I don't even know. Eight years old, nine years old. And I remember her driving, saying, Joe, look at those clouds. They were cumulus clouds. I didn't know that at the time, but nice big old cumulus clouds. And she was like, you see how that one looks like a shape that looks like this or whatever that was? And I was like, oh, yeah, that's really cool. She's like, yeah, those are my favorite. They're so cool. They look so big and powerful, and they take all these different types of shapes. And I don't know, I was so young and so out of touch because of that, that I didn't ever think of that. I never really looked up at the sky and said, wow, look at that. And that was the first moment that kind of, got me interested. And I remember in fifth grade, I'll never forget this, we went through, what do you want to be when you get older? To all my fifth grade teacher students. And I told her I wanted to be a meteorologist. And I said, one day I'm going to say, hey, Mrs. Lacey, I'm going to tell you the weather. Matt Holiner: When you wake up in the morning. Joe Morvasky: Before school, I'll make sure to shout you out. And she's like, I hope so, Joe. And, I was like, but wait, that's not all I want to do. She was like, oh, well, what else do you want to do? And I said, I want to be a professional athlete. She was like, and who doesn't have dreams and aspirations of being a professional athlete, right? Especially somebody like, guess. But I've always wanted to do it. I never thought doing both would be possible. But I guess I kind of. Joe Martucci: Mean, I can think of a couple of athletes and meteorologists. Owen Daniels, who was a tight end for, Oh, geez, I think Minnesota Vikings. Texans. That's the only one I can think of. I'm probably missing somebody you might know, Joe. Joe Morvasky: So there's one person in particular that, from what I understand, never became a meteorologist, but was always fascinated with the weather. I remember I heard this on some interview somewhere once, and I was like, wow, I like this guy even more. You probably won't even believe it. Michael Jordan, really? Michael Jordan. Now we're going to need some fact checkers on that, but I'm almost positive that that's what I heard him say from his mouth, that he loved the weather and he always wanted to be a meteorologist. And I was like, whoa, that's so cool, Michael Jordan himself. Joe Martucci: Yeah, I know. Mike Trout is a big weather guy too. Joe Morvasky: I didn't know. This is good. Joe Martucci: He's been on the Weather Channel a couple of times with Jim Cantore, talking during snowstorms and stuff, of course. Okay, so you got a nice little fraternity there, you and Michael Jordan right there. Joe Morvasky: Yeah, right. Jim Cantori is the one guy, I met Reed Timmer a couple, many years ago. Now, at this point, he was a big idol of mine. But Jim Cantore, I mean, come on, who doesn't want to meet that know out in the snow waiting for. Joe Martucci: The thunder or even some thunder. Snow. Growing up in Connecticut, it's all about the Nor'easters Joe Martucci: And that leads me into my next question here. Growing up in Connecticut, it's all about the Nor'easters and the snowstorms, baby. So are you a big snow guy and do you have any memories growing up of some big snow events? Joe Morvasky: Absolutely. I didn't even know about thunder snow until older, my older years, I don't know exactly when, but I remember being outside during a big storm and a big snowstorm and I remember exactly where I was. Just one of those moments, I remember the snow coming down so hard, this sky had this almost like a pinkish hue to it, which was interesting. And all of a sudden I heard a rumble of thunder and I was like, what is that? Like, I didn't know that was a thing at the time. I must have know middle school at that point. And sure enough, I come to find out, I think I saw Brad Field on NBC Connecticut, one of my big role models, of the NBC Connecticut World. And I sure enough, I think he spoke on NBC that evening. He was like, we had some reports of Thunderstorm. I was like, thunder snow, my world has been changed. I didn't know that was a thing. And so those of course are such incredible moments to hear thunder within a snowstorm. It's really cool and pretty unique. I'm sure you guys have heard it, although maybe not because some of you are not from the Northeast, but either way, it's pretty cool. Joe Martucci: I've heard it and it is very cool. Matt Holiner: on Halloween day, I was in Chicago and I experienced Thunder Graupel for the first time, it was not snow, almost snow, but it was actually graupel. And that was a unique experience. I feel like I'm one of the few that have had that experience. Joe Morvasky: That's cool. I actually had somebody at my job yesterday. He was like, it was hailing this morning. I was like, it wasn't to break it to you. He was like, what do you mean? Matt Holiner: There is a know. Joe Morvasky: It's our job. We got to explain it. But, yeah, it was not common. Matt Holiner: But, yeah, Graupel is a thing. You can Google it and learn all about it. How did you get involved in American ninja Warrior after graduating from college Matt Holiner: But, Joe, what I want to walk through is, let's go after you've got your meteorology degree, how things played out. So what did you do right after college? What was your meteorology experience? And then how did you get involved in American ninja Warrior? Joe Morvasky: Yeah, it's very interesting. So the condensed version of the story is, when I graduated college, I had this opportunity. I had watched American Ninja Warrior on TV, and it just so happened that somebody that I knew, knew a guy that was on the show. And this was before it was really big. It was really before it grew into the NBC giant that it is today, or at least it used to be. The ratings on TV are going down across the board. But back five years ago, six years ago, was really millions and millions of people who were watching. But before it got to that point, there was somebody on the show that I ended up meeting with, and, I asked him all about it. How can I get on the show? This is something I've loved to do. When do they film? And, I asked him everything, and he said, we usually film the spring. And I was like, okay, well, I'm graduating a semester next only because, or a semester late because I ended up switching majors. Not a lot of people know this. I switched from meteorology to secondary education. I really wanted to be a coach. I wanted to stay in that sport world, even though I was sacrificing it to be a meteorologist. And so I was like, you know what? I'm going to transition. I'm going to stick to science and math. I'm going to teach that in high school, and I'll be a coach. It'll be awesome. I'll be able to stay, in the athletic world for the rest of my life if I want to. And it was something that really got me excited. And then I had a moment where I was like, you know what? Something's not right. And I switched back. I switched back a semester later. And, ended up graduating a, semester late, and because of that, graduated in December. The filming of the show was in March, and I was lucky enough to know about it and start training for it in the summer before, just in case. And, here I am today. They love the idea of a weatherman coming in and they wanted to tease me. I know they did. Everyone had like a shtick back then and it was like, the frog man is coming out and look, he's got a silly costume. And then Captain NBC was dressed up as at the time, Captain G Four, I think it was on G Four network. And, he had a thing and other people had a thing, and the fireman and the police officer and the teacher. So they wanted a weatherman. They thought that'd be great. They thought it was going to be a novelty act. They thought they were going to just tease me and so be it. But they found out that I was a real athlete and it kind of took off from there. That was the condensed version. That's surprisingly, but that's how it all started. Sean Sublette: Yeah. So when did you actually begin to train for that, and how long did you train in anticipation? I mean, did you still have to try out and then qualify? How many hoops did you have to ultimately jump through to compete on the program? Joe Morvasky: I started training the summer before. It was probably August of, 2012. I got on the show in the spring of 2013. And honestly, it wasn't a ton of training to get where I got to because I was already a serious athlete. I had played, baseball and basketball. I tried out for the baseball team in college, and it was on the bubble to make the team. And then I realized, you know what? I have a job. I have this career that I'm really aiming for, and I'm pegging my way through college. So how am I going to do this? And so, unfortunately, I gave in to the walking away from sports. But I was always an athlete, always. Growing up. I played varsity sports in high school and like I said, college baseball for a short time and then rec sports in college. So it was really just fine tuning my athleticism to be a ninja. So I did a lot more upper body work. Like I was doing pull ups every other day in the weight in the gym. I was rock climbing a little bit. I was just trying to fine tune myself to be ready, and I did a pretty good job. It worked out. So, that's kind of how it all started there. American Ninja warrior is a sport that takes getting used to Joe Martucci: Let's talk about a little bit about how the sausage is being made during these episodes. I have watched American Ninja warrior before, but I will say I know a lot of kids are interested in American Ninja warrior, at least with the kids that I've spoken to. So when you're there, what's it like? How long are you actually there competing? Because I know it looks like a lot of different cuts on television. So what is a day of competition like? Joe Morvasky: Oh, it's rough, I'll tell you that. It's rough. It's something that really takes getting used to, and it's definitely a younger person's sport, I'll tell you that. Because the older, you know, like me, you get married, you have kids. It's a lot harder to change your sleep schedule because we film this overnight. We usually get there depending on where the location is. Let's take the Vegas finals, for example. Vegas finals. They want us there early to make sure there's no hiccups. We go over rules of the course at 07:00 p.m. Right around 07:00 p.m. Local time in Vegas, and we end up getting there. About 530 in the evening. So it's 530 until seven. We're sitting around in a tent doing nothing. From seven to eight, it's rules. And about 830 to 09:00, the competition starts at about that time. We run through the night, and we don't finish filming until about 05:00 a.m. So it's a very long 12 hours of just sitting around trying to deal with the anxiety and the stress of, having to give it your all in that one shot that you have. And it's hard also, because sometimes there are hiccups along the way where the course will malfunction, and then there's even more of a delay. And this has happened two years in a row for me, where I'm supposed to run one night, there's a course malfunction. I have to run now the next night, and the next night is reserved for stage two of the Vegas finals, and the next night after that is sometimes stage three and four, which is the final stage. So it really depends on the year. But if I get bumped from one night to the next, sometimes relief, sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm ready. I want to go know. So it's frustrating, and you kind of have to be okay. Know, changing things on the fly. And as a meteorologist, this is what I love so much, because people don't understand that you'll have your producer, in your ear saying, hey, Joe, we need 30 more seconds. And you're like, oh, my gosh, I'm on the seven day already. What am I going to do? So you just slow it down and you start to talk a little bit like this. And maybe there's a chance for some rain overnight, but we're going to have to keep an eye on the computer models, of course, because I don't know what I'm saying. I'm just filling time. And so you have to be able to adapt to anything that comes your way. And so that parallel between meteorology and sports, it's actually pretty amazing. And not to mention all the physics that I've taken and the understanding of how obstacles should work and how my body should move through the air to be able to beat these obstacles, I mean, it's all a huge advantage, and, people wouldn't normally think that. Joe Moravsky says there have been a few memorable weather moments during competitions Matt Holiner: And Joe, how many cities have you traveled to to do the show? And I'm also curious along the way, in all these travels and all these competitions, has weather ever been an issue? Has there been weather that has occurred during the course of the event that maybe had a little bit of an impact? Joe Morvasky: Absolutely. There's a few really cool moments in the St. Louis. Oh, no, it was in Colorado. I wasn't there for that one. But we actually had some snow on that course, and so they built a snowman at the top of the warp wall. That one was cool. In St. Louis for one year, we had severe thunderstorms to where we canceled the entire night. Another year in St. Louis, we, got snow, but it was like the back end of the front, so the rain had gone through, and then there was some flakes behind it, and it got bitterly cold and windy. It was terrible. But I think the most memorable was in the Vegas finals, a couple of years ago. We got rain right before we started running, and it was summertime in Vegas. You're not really getting rain. So that was kind of cool and unique. But, aside from that, there was one time Minneapolis, the Minneapolis, city qualifiers and finals. I just landed at the airport right when I landed, I got alerts on my phone for, a severe thunderstorm warning. I was like, everywhere I go, everywhere I go. And people, they look at me because I got some ninjas coming off the plane with me and like, Joe, you're supposed to be in control of. Come on. Yeah, yeah. So it is funny. Yeah. There's definitely been quite a few moments where weather, has impacted the. Absolutely. Joe Martucci: And do they ask you, has anyone said, ask you what the weather is going to be like? Who's actually making that decision to tell me about it? Joe Morvasky: You would think, right? They have their own in house meteorologist, apparently. And I've offered my advice. I've been like, hey, we got about 30 minutes, producers. Let's go. I'm up in three runners. Let's go. And sure enough, that year in Philadelphia, I got rained out. I was the next to run and there was eleven of us left, in Philadelphia, and we got rained out for the rest of the night. It was going to be three days of rain, so they canceled the shoot. The next eleven runners, the final eleven runners got sent to Minneapolis, which is where that, severe thunderstorm warning hit me right when I got off the plane. So that was a year. That was a year. Joe Martucci: Interesting. All right, well, we're going to take a break. We'll have more with Joe Moravsky on the other side of the across the sky podcast. Joe Moravsky is the Weatherman on American Ninja Warrior Joe Martucci: Welcome back, everybody, to the across the sky podcast. Hey, new episodes come out every Monday, wherever you get your podcast and on your favorite local news website. We are back with Joe Morovsky, famously, known as the Weatherman on American Ninja Warrior. We are talking all about weather, American Ninja warrior, athletes and beyond. Joe, let me ask you, know, what is your involvement with meteorology? Joe Morvasky: Know, it's really kind of sad, you know, I, we just had our first snow here in Connecticut. Was it yesterday, I think? Yeah, it was yesterday. Yeah. So you know better than I do, and I was here. But that's the point. You know what I mean? I'm very much still in love with it. But the conclusion I've come to is I'm 34 years old. I can be in my fifty s or sixty s or even 70s if I want to be a meteorologist, I can't be in my fifty s, sixty s, seventy s, competing at this level on Ninja Warrior. And so I have put everything on halt. I'm focusing on my career with Ninja, managing the gym and hopefully franchises soon. So there's a lot that I'm working on. But, yeah, meteorology is not one of them. So it is always nice and refreshing to do this, you know what I mean? To kind of get the weather weenies together. I know the general public is like, what is that? But that's what we call ourselves. Joe Martucci: No, we understand. So you're still getting excited when the snow is coming in? Joe Morvasky: Oh, absolutely. You should have seen me. I was like a kid on Christmas yesterday, I was like, it's snowing out. I made sure everyone knew I was texting everybody the best part, though, and this is always fun, me and a small group of my friends. Every so often, I'll say, snow is coming on Wednesday. For example, I said this last week. I was like, snow is coming on Wednesday. You heard it here first. And I sent it to them. And, sure enough, Wednesday morning, I got a text from them. They're like, you son of a. You were right. I was like, you better believe it. So not always right, as we know, but I nailed that one. And, I think it was a week out, so I was happy about have. I have nobody checking up on me, so it's not a big deal. I can make big claims. How much longer do you think you'll stay with America Ninja Warrior Sean Sublette: Well, Joe, back to your role right now. What is your relationship with America Ninja Warrior? I mean, are you still doing competitions? ARe you kind of advising what is your role and influence with them right now? Joe Morvasky: So we just filmed season 15. I had a really good season. Didn't hit a lot of buzzers, but felt really good. Made, it to the Vegas finals, got to our head to head showdown, which is on stage two in Vegas. It's a brand new format where we actually race somebody, and the winner goes to stage three. And in the history of American Ninja Warrior, I'm still the only person with the most amount of stage three visits. So I've been there the most out of everyone in history, which is really cool. And it helps with the confidence trying to get back there. I'm like, all right, come on. Come on, Joe. You've been there before. Let's do it again. And, it does, you know, I ended up losing my race. I ended up misplacing a bar. The bar had to go into these bear traps that were inverted, and you had to push the bar through the bear trap, and it locked in place on its way out. And I only got one side in because I'm mid race. I'm trying to really focus at a high speed, and I just missed. I'm talking by an inch. And so my season was over. But the good news is they brought me back for season 16. We filmed back to back seasons. Joe Martucci: we think it had to do. Joe Morvasky: With the writer strike. So they were getting ahead of it. So from what I'm hearing, the rumor is, and this is just a rumor, it's not confirmed that early 2024, January, February, season 16 will air, which is something we've already filmed. I can't tell you how it did. But let's just say ninja. Ah, warriors should want to keep having me back for years to come. Let's hope. It's always good, though, when I step out on the course. So, in all seriousness, they've always loved taking the weatherman back on the show, for whatever reason. Maybe it's the fact that I grew up on TV, right? I started as a 23 year old, just with a girlfriend and no kids. And ten years later, I have a new house, three, kids, a wife, a new job, and I've grown up on TV. And it's really relatable to a lot of people watching, especially the people that started watching what, you know, they get to see the guy from Connecticut that turned, into, a ninja superstar. So it's really cool. Matt Holiner: And going off of that, how much longer do you think you're going to keep competing and keep at it before you make that career transition back to meteorology, maybe. How much longer do you think you're going to stay with Ninja Warrior? Joe Morvasky: That's the question, man. If you asked me that two years ago, I'd say this is it. Because the COVID season was really hard on me, I got disqualified, because my wife caught COVID while we were at the Vegas finals. I can relive that, man. I can't tell you how awful that felt. Like I was ready to run. I was 19 people away from stepping on the stage. One course in Vegas, which, by the way, is outdoors and we're vaccinated, and blah, blah, blah, blah. I can go on. And. But. And we got tested, and I was negative that night for COVID. But because my wife is a close contact, I got disqualified from the competition, and I did mentally retire that year. I retired that night. I made the decision. I was like, this is how it's going to end. This is how it was meant to end. And, the more I sat on that thought, the more okay I became with never winning, because I hadn't ever won at this point and still haven't. Maybe season 16, but we don't know yet. And so I had let it go. I let the dream go. I was like, it's okay. It's okay to not achieve your dreams. You did so much, and it's okay. But just something came across me in that time of reflection, the months later, and I just realized, you know what? I can't. How often do people walk away at their peak? I can't. I still have more to give. And there's so many people that rely on seeing me out there, rely on me for motivation, inspiration, never giving up. Right? And I've touched too many people's lives, and I've heard too many people's stories about how I have to walk away. And I've learned that it's not just about me at this point anymore. I do it for people that look up to me and want to see me back, for whatever their reason is. And so that's powerful enough to keep me going, among all the other things. So I'll be back. And I continue to take, it one year at a time, but I don't see myself walking away in the next two or three years. I got time left, and I'm ready to commit to it. Joe Martucci: Joe, kind of following up on that. Do you hear from aspiring meteorologists on American Ninja warrior Joe Martucci: do you hear from aspiring meteorologists throughout your years on American Ninja warrior? Matt Holiner: Do you do school visits? Joe Martucci: What's your relationship like with younger people who are interested in whether as a career, but are still in school? Joe Morvasky: Yeah. So I definitely had a lot of people reach out to me. Twitter, Instagram. Twitter is a really great place where people have reached out, especially meteorologists. I don't know what it is about, us meteorologists and Twitter, but, yeah, a lot of people have reached out there. I think, on that last, podcast, that I was on, I think they found me through, Twitter, as, I mean, I've. I've done school visits and know slideshows and wife school at other schools. And, I've even had the really cool opportunity to meet Al Roker a few times on the Today show and be on his morning show there. So that was fun. That was a lot of fun. It's been a few years since that, but I told Al was like, hey, we got to get you on the course. He was like, okay, no way. But, yeah, it comes with a job. I'm always going to have people reaching out, whether they're meteorologists, meteorology wannabes, or actual, ah, meteorologists, or just kids interested in the weather. I've had them all reach out, and it's really cool. It's really cool to be able to reach, so many people. Joe Martucci: I did a little Facebook sleuthing on your public page here. I saw you went to Long Beach Island, over the summer. Joe Morvasky: Yes. Joe Martucci: What'd you? Joe Morvasky: It. You know, it just so happened Taylor Swift was there at the same. Joe Martucci: Time. Joe Morvasky: Guess who got to meet her? Not me. Not me. Joe Martucci: I was going to say she got to meet you, right? Matt Holiner: It'd be the other. Joe Morvasky: Oh, please. I wish, man. What? It's her. And, Kelsey. Joe Martucci: Yes. Travis Kelsey. Joe Morvasky: Yeah, Travis Kelsey. They're together now. The whole world knows that. But yeah, Taylor Swift was down there. But beside from that, Long Beach Island is beautiful. I mean, it's close enough to Connecticut where it's not like driving. We went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina a couple of years ago. That was a drive, let me. But it was beautiful. Yeah, Long Beach Island, we loved it. And we'll probably go back. I know my dad is already interested, so maybe we'll see you out there. Joe Martucci: let me know. We'll get you in the studio. We can do a live weather video for you. Yeah, we can go live, do whatever you want. We appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. Maybe after Season 16 airs Joe Martucci: Joe, anything else you want to end with here before we wrap it up? This has been a great, half hour with you. Joe Morvasky: Yeah, I mean, I'm just so thankful for these opportunities and, to keep my foot in the meteorology door. It's always been a passion of mine to just be in the weather community and to be involved in weather in some way. And whether I'm doing it all the time or not doesn't mean I don't love it. So this means a lot to me. It's fun to meet other fellow meteorologists. And, I'll see you on the next podcast. Joe Martucci: Absolutely, yeah. We'd love to have you back. Maybe after Season 16 airs. Joe Morvasky: Let's hope it's a good one. Joe Martucci: Well, we're rooting for you, Joe. We really appreciate you taking your time to chat with us and, we'd love to have you again soon, but thanks again for the time. Joe Morvasky: Thank you, Joe. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Sean. Sean Sublette: Thanks for repping so well, man. Joe Morvasky: Appreciate it. Matt says weather plays a big role in American Ninja Warrior competitions Joe Martucci: And we are back here. So, guys, as I'm listening to this, I hear him talking about those storms in Connecticut, talking about fronts. He's just like one of us. It's just you see him on, know, a couple times a year competing on American Ninja warrior. It's, just really cool to have him on it is really. Sean Sublette: Go ahead, go ahead. Matt Holiner: No, I was going to say, I. Also like how he can't escape the weather. He had the rain delay in Philadelphia, then he said, oh. So then they decide to move it to Minneapolis and got the severe thunderstorm warning there. So it's hard for him to escape the weather in these events because they do occur outside. So there is an element, the weather does impact him in his game. Even when he's not actively working as a meteorologist. The weather is having an impact and people are teasing about it and asking him questions about it. So, the weather continues to follow him and knows he's a meteorologist. Sean Sublette: Yeah. And to that end, almost all of their competitions are recorded at night, which I think is also important. If you're training, you're going to be training a different way if you have to perform outside in the daylight, especially in spring, summer, fall, the sun is up and it's different than if you're out there at nighttime. And to say nothing of they record well into the night. Not like, oh, we're done at 930 or ten. They go well past midnight recording some of this stuff. So that's an additional stress on the body, just being up when it is not accustomed to being up. And the fact that he is still doing this. Very impressive. Matt Holiner: Yeah, I didn't realize that either that I figured. You do see that it's filmed at night, but I kind of said, oh, just during the evening hours. I wasn't thinking, in my mind for some of those people. Yes, some of them, they start in the evening, but they're going all night. So some of them are doing this. Three in the morning, four in the morning, which just makes it even harder again, especially if you're trying to live a normal life most of the time. But when you do the competition, to be up at those hours. Yeah. It just makes it more difficult. So it makes it more impressive that he's done as well as he has. Joe Martucci: I like what you said earlier, Matt, about breaking the mold. Right. Not too many athletes that are meteorologists. I was going to ask you guys, did you guys do sports in high school or college? Matt Holiner: Oh, definitely not college. Joe Martucci: Everybody's. Matt Holiner: I did middle school golf team. But then again, my talent level wasn't good enough for the high school golf team, so I switched over to band. Another nerdy thing. Sean Sublette: Just a bunch of pickup soccer and intramural softball. That's about as exciting as it got for me. Joe Martucci: But I think, aren't you a. Sean Sublette: Disc golf guy, Sean, my son, is really the big disc golf guy, and he's got me into doing it and he's had to show me how to hold the discs the right way. The right way to kind of move your body so you have control of the discs. But that's fun. But I wouldn't call that high stress exercise. Joe Martucci: It's a lot of walking. Sean Sublette: It is a lot of walking. Joe Martucci: Got to walk around walking. That ain't nothing. Next week, we're going to do Bob Dylan in the weather Joe Martucci: All right, so we have plenty of more episodes coming up. Of course. Coming up next week, we're going to do Bob Dylan in the weather. Now, Bob Dylan was not a meteorologist, but he did write a lot of songs about the weather. And we actually have, Dr. Alan Roebach, who was one of my professors at Rutgers, come on the podcast. Because, guys, he actually did his thesis about Bob Dylan and the weather, which, when we were in school, we used to just kind of be like, that's pretty incredible. Maybe a little different. But it's going to come to be a real surprise when he talks about this, because he has a lot to say about this. He might be Bob Dylan's biggest fan. Sean Sublette: Well, I think. Wasn't Bob Dylan the guy who wrote, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing? Wasn't that Dylan? Joe Martucci: I'm not sure. Sean Sublette: I think it was Dylan. I'd have to go Google it. But, I mean, Dylan has written a lot of stuff with these weather undertones, so, I'm not surprised. But I'm looking forward to hearing what, Alan has to say and a. Matt Holiner: Quick shout out, like, the reason we actually came up with this idea. Gosh, I think it's now coming up on almost a year when we did our top ten weather songs. Sean Sublette: Has it been a year now? Matt Holiner: I think it's almost been. You're going to have to go back in our podcast history. Scroll back. But we did an episode, the top ten weather songs, and we talked about Bob Dylan on there. And then Joe said, oh, my professor did his whole thesis on Bob Dylan and the weather. And it's like, you know what? He might be a good one to bring on. And so we're finally getting around to it. Joe Martucci: That was our November 28, 2022 episode. Group: Wow, almost a year. Yeah. Joe Martucci: top ten weather songs we, did. That was with Terry Lipshetz, who's our, producer here, our podcast producer for not just us, but all of our Lee Enterprises Weather, podcasts that we do. We're, also going to do ten things to know about weather that's coming up the 18 December. And then at the end, we will do our year in review. So we do have, course, more things coming up. And, we'll make it even better as we go into the new year, which is rapidly approaching. Believe, it or not. I can't believe. Sean Sublette: And I did just Google it. Yes. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. That's Dylan. Joe Martucci: That is true. But if you need to forecast which way the wind blows, well, I mean. Sean Sublette: A compass to know which way the wind blows. That's all you need. You don't need me. Just need a compass. Joe Martucci: Well, I'm, trying to give us some credit here. I'm trying to give us some credit. I'm saying, if you need a wind forecast, that's where you come with us. We got it there. If, you have a question, you can leave one for us at 609-272-7099 609-272-7099 you can also email podcasts@lee.net so for Matt Holiner in Chicagoland, Sean Sublette in Richmond, and Kirsten, who couldn't be with us, but she is saying hello from Tulsa, Oklahoma, I'm meteorologist Joe Martucci, and we'll see you next Monday on the across the Sky Podcast.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Join our free Florida income properties webinar, tonight, Monday, November 27th for 5.75% mortgage rates at: GREwebinars.com Today's topics: Conventional financial advice is God-awful; tertiary real estate markets; I've got a solution to guilt tipping; whether or not the world is uncertain and unsafe. Conventional financial advice is so bad. I attack the practices of setting budget alerts and paying off your smallest debts first.  Don't roll a debt snowball; roll a cash flow snowball. In the past five years, tertiary markets are beginning to exhibit the rent stability of larger markets. Guilt tipping is out of control. Learn my elegant solution. You'll never pay a guilt tip again. It seems like the world is increasingly uncertain and unsafe. It isn't. I talk about why it only seems this way. Timestamps: The limitations of budgeting (00:02:43) Discussion on the drawbacks of using budgeting platforms and how they reinforce scarcity thinking. The debt snowball concept (00:05:09) Explanation of the debt snowball method of debt paydown and why it is not aligned with an abundance mindset. Investing in tertiary real estate markets (00:09:43) Exploration of the emerging bullish case for investing in smaller, tertiary real estate markets and their stability compared to larger markets. Tertiary Real Estate Markets (00:10:56) Discussion of the advantages and objections to investing in smaller tertiary real estate markets. Increasing Investor Appetite in Smaller Markets (00:12:02) Exploration of the growing interest and sales volumes in tertiary real estate markets. Guilt Tipping and a Solution (00:20:16) Explanation of guilt tipping and a proposed solution to avoid feeling pressured to leave a tip when making digital payments. Guilt Tipping and the Increasing Expectations (00:21:20) Discussion on the rise of tipping expectations and the use of digital payment prompts to ask for tips. The Problem with Guilt Tipping and the Inconvenience of Undoing Tips (00:23:45) Exploration of the annoyance of guilt tipping and the difficulty of undoing tips after poor service. The Solution: Paying Cash to Avoid Guilt Tipping (00:31:18) Suggestion to pay with cash as an elegant solution to circumvent guilt tipping and ignore electronic payment terminals. The Uncertainty of the World (00:32:25) Discusses how uncertainty has always existed and how waiting for complete clarity can hinder investment decisions. Disasters and Uncertainty (00:33:47) Lists various disasters and events that have occurred in the US, highlighting the constant presence of uncertainty and the relative sense of certainty and safety today. The Ultra Safety of American Society (00:36:13) Examines how society has become ultra safe, discussing the term "safetyism" and providing examples of excessive safety measures. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: GetRichEducation.com/477 Join our Florida properties webinar, free,  Nov. 27th at 8:30 PM ET at: www.GREwebinars.com For access to properties or free help with a GRE Investment Coach, start here: GREmarketplace.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Invest with Freedom Family Investments.  You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com GRE Free Investment Coaching: GREmarketplace.com/Coach Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith's personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete Episode Transcript:   Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, with a rant on how conventional financial advice is so terribly god awful an outlook for tertiary real estate markets, then? Are you getting worn down from guilt tipping? I've got a proven solution on how you'll never pay a guilt trip to a business again. And finally, how do you arrange your investing in personal finances in a world that's uncertain and unsafe? All today on get Rich education? When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of hours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text to six, 6866.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:15) - And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Day dream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it, text GRE to 66866. Text  GRE to 66866.   Speaker 2 (00:01:40) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.   Keith Weinhold (00:01:56) - Welcome from Los Angeles, California, to Las Cruces, New Mexico, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Wayne holding. This is get rich education. When you pay for a low level service item like a Chipotle burrito, and another human is looking at you to see if you leave a 20% tip on a digital payment terminal, does that make you feel uncomfortable? Well, now you're being asked to. Guilt tip I've got a foolproof way on how to never get put in that situation again. That I'll share with you later here. You know, sometimes you just hear something that triggers a rant. I recently heard an ad for a digital platform that helps you manage your finances.   Keith Weinhold (00:02:43) - And what an awful, in scarcity minded way of thinking this reinforces. But this is actually what mainstream financial guidance looks like. All right, it was an ad for a digital platform trying to attract you there. And here's basically how it works. You set up your account. Then based on your income and expenses, you set up your budget. And as you know, that is a bad word around here, a budget. It's not how you want to live long term. All right. Then, when you're close to hitting your spending budget for the month or whatever, this platform triggers a budget alert. Are you kidding me? You get emailed a budget alert. How convenient. Oh, geez. So much for living an aspirational life by design. What a dreadful idea. Like someone that really wants more out of life would actually take effort to set up something like that. You would be building an architecture to establish life patterns that completely say, I think that money is a scarce resource. Now, in the short term, you've got to do what you've got to do, which might mean living below your means for a little while.   Keith Weinhold (00:03:55) - But in a world of abundance, delayed gratification should be a short term notion for you. I think that this type of platform that centered around stupid budget alerts is so limiting. Gosh, you've got to feel cheap just saying that out loud a budget alert. But anyway, that sounds conducive to this concept of scarcity based finance called a debt snowball that you can read about the debt snowball on Investopedia. But the debt snowball, that's basically how you pay off your debt with the smallest balance first, not the highest interest rate, but yes, the smallest principal balance it would have basically says is in the first step, what you're supposed to do is list your debts from smallest to largest, and that's regardless of interest rate, just smallest to largest based on the amount. And then the next step is that you make minimum payments on all of your debts except the smallest one, because you pay as much as possible on your smallest debt. And then the last step is you're supposed to just go ahead and repeat that until each debt is paid in full.   Keith Weinhold (00:05:09) - That's the debt snowball. So according to that, why do they say to disregard the interest rate, which is your cost of capital? Because they say that when you pay off the smallest debt super quick, that you're going to be jumping up and down with excitement, and that is going to motivate you to keep working hard to get debt free. They say that hope is more important than math. That's the school of thought. And along the way you should lower your expenses, cut spending, work hard and add a side hustle where you can. Oh my gosh, that is all congruent with this debt snowball concept that we sure do not endorse here at. I mean, that is 100% orthogonal to the world of abundance that we believe in. So often on your high interest rate debt. What you would do then is you'd make the minimum payments with this debt snowball, and then you focus it all on your smallest debt amount, regardless of interest rate. You've heard that right? And it even advocates that you stop investing and just focus on that smallest debt amount, even if it's a low interest rate.   Keith Weinhold (00:06:22) - That makes no sense. If you've decided that debt paydown is the best allocation of your first expendable dollar. All right, even if that were a yes, then in most cases you'd want to pay down the highest interest rate independent of the total principal balance on each of your debts. I mean, that's arbitrage, but they even bigger question for you, almost existential in nature is why is the best way to allocate your first expendable dollar on debt? Paydown. And. Any way it's or that. First, because one of the first places to look is how you can leverage that dollar 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 as long as you've controlled cash flows. Now, sometimes there are instances where you'd want to pay down debt before investing, certainly like a 20% Apr credit card debt, that could be one such place. So could retiring a debt to help your DTI, your debt to income ratio so that you can originate a new business loan or a new real estate loan first? All right, you might do thatrillionegardless of the interest rate on a loan.   Keith Weinhold (00:07:30) - But my gosh, if we want to stick with the snowball analogy, since we're a few days from December here, instead of trying to push a debt snowball up a hill to start rolling a cash flow snowball down a hill, when you buy an asset that pays you a monthly income stream to own it, that is constructive. Compounding your cash flows beats compounding your debt paid out. Instead of trying to push a debt snowball up a hill because you're cutting your one and only quality of life down. Instead, start rolling a cash flow snowball down a hill, and now you've got gravity working with you in the right way. That is the end of my rent. Hey, maybe I just feel like complaining a bit. My Jim was playing Phil Collins and Elton John all weekend, so maybe that's a kind of what in the world kind of mood that had generated in me, I don't know. And hey, nothing wrong with Phil Collins and Elton John. I mean, those guys are truly talented singers, 100%.   Keith Weinhold (00:08:28) - I just don't want to be working out to those guys. Michael Bolton, George Michael that's not motivating me to hit 20 burpees. Okay. Hey, well, I hope that you were set up for a great week. Be sure that part of it is that you are signed up for our live event tonight for 5.75% mortgage rates on Florida Income property@webinars.com. Now, whether you're looking at investment property in Florida or most any of the other 49 US states, there's a really nascent and interesting development that's been taking place for at least five years now. And that is what's happening in tertiary markets, smaller markets. I'll define tertiary a bit more shortly, but we're talking about metro statistical areas, MSAs that are probably not under 100,000 population, not that small. From a rent growth perspective. What's happened is that over the last five years, tertiary markets have had similar patterns to bigger markets. And historically, these smaller markets have been more erratic. But in rent growth terms, tertiary markets have stabilized. Now, a primary market is something like New York City or Chicago, a secondary market.   Keith Weinhold (00:09:43) - You might think of that as a little Rock, Arkansas, where it's under a million in size, and then a tertiary market that's going to be somewhat discretionary. But we're talking about a population of 100 K up to, say, 300 K. And what's noteworthy is that there are now more analysts and investors that are bullish on vibrant tertiary markets. So let's talk about why this is happening. I think there's an emerging bull case for overcoming some of the historical roadblocks to tertiary market investments in a diversified multifamily or single family rental portfolio. And one classical objection is that tertiary real estate markets are too volatile. Historically, we perceive smaller markets as more volatile. Yes, and some surely are. But over these last five years, markets outside the top 50 in size were regularly more consistent. Okay. They avoided rent cuts in 2020. They recorded sizable but less lawfully rent hikes in 2021 and 2022. And now they remain moderately positive in 2023, even as larger markets have kind of flattened out in the rent growth.   Keith Weinhold (00:10:56) - And of course, we're talking about a composite group of tertiary markets here. Some are more stable than others. You got to watch those local trends as always, of course. And you know, classically a second objection with these smaller markets is that, well, it's too easy to add a lot of supply. And yes, that is sometimes true and sometimes it's not. Indeed, there are a handful of small markets that are building like crazy, like Sioux Falls, South Dakota in Huntsville, Alabama. But as a group, the construction rate in what that is is the total units under construction divided by the total existing market, that is 5% in large markets versus the construction rate of just 4% in small markets. See, it can be harder to build in certain small markets due to NIMBYism or a lack of debt availability, especially if local banks aren't interested in the check size needed for construction loans. It can also be harder to build in certain small markets due to a lack. Of equity because it's a tougher sell to ask investors in a syndication to bet on a market that they don't have a lot of knowledge of.   Keith Weinhold (00:12:02) - Another objection to these tertiary markets is that small markets are not liquid. Since 2019, sales volumes in dollars going into tertiary markets has doubled. Investor appetite has definitely increased in smaller markets. And that's particularly true among these traditional regional investors that are looking for better yield as the larger cities got pricier. So good small markets, you know, a lot of them really are not secrets anymore. And there's only one more objection to these tertiary real estate markets and that it is harder to scale operations. And yes, there is always benefit in efficiency of scale. But, you know, it's certainly been getting easier with better technology today. Investors can always work with top local property managers. And for investment property owners or managers, they often target small markets adjacent to larger markets where they have a bigger presence. So some other considerations before you as an investor go deep in one of these smaller tertiary markets is you want to be choosy in your market and in your site selection. Look for small markets that have multiple drivers.   Keith Weinhold (00:13:13) - You don't just want these one trick ponies. You know, I've discussed with you before about how markets that are heavily focused on commodities or heavily focused on military, they are not favorable because those two sectors, for example, commodities and military, are just pretty volatile. Look for growth or steady markets, lots of small markets. They continue to grow at a pretty healthy clip. And you want to look for markets with an absence of new product. Now why don't I name a few tertiary markets so that you can get a better idea of this. So about 100 K to 300 K in population size. Not that these next ones are necessarily good or bad markets. It's just for size comparison. I'm thinking about Ocala, Florida and Shreveport, Louisiana. You know those two. They're almost getting too big. They're almost secondary markets Wilmington, North Carolina at 300 K. That's a tertiary market. So are Akron and Canton, Ohio Dayton. That's pretty tertiary, but it's also close to Cincinnati. So you got a little more safety in Dayton.   Keith Weinhold (00:14:20) - Toledo is secondary. Burlington, Vermont is tertiary. Bellingham, Washington is tertiary. Yuma and Flagstaff, Arizona are both tertiary. Yes. We're talking about the stability in rents in tertiary real estate markets. Conventionally. You know, in the past, I've said that MSAs of 500 K population or more, that's pretty much where you want to be. But anymore, with the rise of remote work after 2019, it's really making some of these smaller tertiary markets more palatable to real estate investors and something that you probably want to consider. So really, that's the takeaway for you here and say this is the kind of stuff that really plays into my interests as a geography guy. See, I'm a real estate guy, but I might be the most geography interested real estate guy out there. Geography is something that I really love, though I could I don't share too much geography here on a real estate show. Sometimes it's relevant because both geography and real estate are location, location, location, but sometimes it's less relevant.   Keith Weinhold (00:15:25) - For example, North America's longest river is not the Mississippi, it's the Missouri River. The New York City metro area is so populated that more than one in every 18 Americans live there. That's almost 6% of the entire American population. See, some of this is more trivial or of general interest than it is relevant to real estate. Although you could learn some geography from me. Do you know the closest US state to Africa? If you draw a straight line, the closest state to Africa is not Florida or North Carolina. It is Maine. Look on a globe. Part of the reason that Maine is the closest state is that Africa is primarily in the Northern Hemisphere, not the southern, contrary to popular belief, and to look at a different continent. The entirety of South America is east of Jacksonville, Florida. Here's one more piece of geography. Canada's beautiful and mountainous Yukon Territory is larger than California, yet California has more than 900 times the population of the entire Yukon. Yes, the giant Yukon has less than 45,000 people.   Keith Weinhold (00:16:39) - It is the practice of guilt tipping out of control. And how do you respond to our world that seems to be increasingly unsafe and uncertain. That's coming up next. They say, if you give a man a fish you have fed him for. Or a day. But if you teach them to fish, you have fed him for a lifetime. Well, here at gray, we do both. I'm not talking about both in terms of men and women, but we teach you how to fish and give you a fish. Get rich. Education is where we teach you how to fish. With this show, with our blog and newsletter and videos, we also give you a fish. That's it. Gray marketplace. It's one of the few places you'll find affordable, available properties that are good quality there at marketplace. They're all conducive to our strategy of real estate pays five ways I'm Keith Wild. You're listening to get Rich education. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Rich lending group and MLS. For 256.   Keith Weinhold (00:17:45) - They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your pre-qualification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge. Personally, though, even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio. Start at Ridge Lending Group. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing, personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom Family Investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%. Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited for some of them. It's all backed by real estate, and I kind of love how the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains in your W-2 jobs income, and they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love.   Keith Weinhold (00:18:55) - For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 66866. Oh, and this isn't a solicitation. If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to 66866.   Speaker 3 (00:19:16) - This is real estate investment coach Naresh Vissa. Don't live below your means. Grow your needs. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold.   Keith Weinhold (00:19:34) - Welcome back. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. There will only ever be one great podcast. Episode 477. And you're listening to it perhaps on one third of our episodes. Throughout the show's history, there is no guest. It's 100% me, a slack jawed monologue like it is today, and lots of great Jerry episodes coming up in the future, including Robert Helms other real estate guys here soon as he runs alongside me for an episode as we discuss goals. If you get value from and you don't want to miss any future episodes, be sure to hit subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast platform so that you're sure to hear from me again after today.   Keith Weinhold (00:20:16) - Is guilt tipping out of control? We have all felt it now. Does this happen to you today when you're about to pay the Starbucks barista or for the subway sandwich and they spin the digital payment terminal around toward you and say, it's just going to ask you a question before you pay. And then they stand there and they look at you in the face and they watch what you choose. All right. Does that right there give you a tinge of anxiety or even stress you out? Well, if you give in to that, that is called guilt tipping. And you know what? I've got a solution to guilt tipping. A simple and elegant way that I'm going to share with you so that you never have to see a payment terminal like this in your face again, that asks you for a tip when you're out shopping or dining and paying for something. Yes, I've got a proven solution for how you'll never even be asked to leave a guilt tip again because I tested it and mastered it. It works.   Keith Weinhold (00:21:20) - We even have an unverified report on Reddit of a self-serve digital kiosk now even asking you for a tip. What? I mean, how far will this go? Yes, like a self-checkout for your own groceries at a supermarket like Giant or Safeway? First, let's get some context about why this is so important to you in the first place and how bad it's getting. It might even be worse than what you're thinking here. All right, a new study from Pew Research. It found that 72% of people said that the long standing practice of tipping is now expected in more places than it was five years ago. My reaction to that stat is what? How is it not 100% of people saying that it's happening all over the place, and consumers like you and I are increasingly getting tired of it? The way it works is that today's digital payment prompts, they allow businesses to preset suggested tip levels, so it's easier than ever for them to ask for tips and companies that have not done so in the past. They are definitely doing it now rather than giving employees a raise.   Keith Weinhold (00:22:35) - Instead, they're asking you to supplement the employee wage by asking you for tips where they didn't before. Must you fight back like David Horowitz, if you're uninitiated on that? I learned about a popular show that apparently ran on prime time network television in the 1980s. The show was called Fight Back with David Horowitz, and it advocated for how consumers can fight back against unscrupulous business practices. In fact, let's listen into the cornball intro of this show, which your parents might remember. It's something about fight back. Don't let businesses push you around.   Speaker UU (00:23:20) - But don't let anyone push you around. Fine, but stand up and hold your ground. I got. Someone tries to you in. Five spot. Just.   Speaker 4 (00:23:44) - Oh, jeez. Yeah.   Keith Weinhold (00:23:45) - Fight back against guilt tipping, I suppose. See, a few years back, the reason that you began getting asked to leave a tip in places you hadn't before. That's because it was a way for you to provide a gratuity for service workers. Because you were supposed to have appreciated that they showed up during the health crisis when a lot of workers did not want to show up.   Keith Weinhold (00:24:09) - But now that the crisis appears largely over with, the tip requests have not gone away. They've gotten worse because by now companies see what they can get away with. Now, look, people don't want to feel like a jerk or a cheapskate. You don't. I don't, but businesses are taking advantage of that fact by making bigger than usual tips. The default option on these payment terminals. It really that's the crux of the annoyance. Say that you're given choices of 20, 25, or 30% on a payment terminal just for someone handing you a pre-made sandwich that's already wrapped in cellophane. I've had it happen to me, and then hoping that you will just go ahead and pay the extra amount, rather than hassling with clicking custom tip and entering a smaller number like 10% or zero. Understand something here. The business call it a sandwich shop. They're not the ones that always decide what tip options you're presented with. Did you know that because the companies that own the payment systems, they can earn a cut of your money from each transaction? Those payment system companies, they also have an incentive to increase those amounts as much as possible, not just the sandwich shop, but they are both complicit in this scheme together.   Keith Weinhold (00:25:37) - But now sometimes you get asked to leave a tip beforehand before you're even delivered any good or service. And see, that's getting awkward too. And see the fear of that you and I should have. Now is that in this case, as the customer, as the client, you are going to get punished if you leave a low tip before they deliver the service to you. See, that's another big problem here with guilt tipping. Now, traditionally, tips were thought of as a way to reward good service after you already received what you paid for, right? That's how it works. You pay your server after a meal, you pay your valet. After they bring you your car. You pay the tour guide after your volcano hike or snorkel tour. If you thought that they did a good job. Now, just the other day at a chain fast casual Mexican restaurant that you've certainly heard of, I was being rung up about $35 for two double steak burritos, and there's a lower service level there than a full sit down restaurant.   Keith Weinhold (00:26:44) - But I left a 10% tip at the counter on that day. I thought they put lots of steak on them. And then I walked my burritos to the tables and the tables were messy. I could not find a clean table anywhere, but I had already left the tip. It was too late, so I left the tip and then only later did I discover the poor service, the messy tables. Oh gosh, I wasn't going to go back and try to undo the tip, huh? Before I tell you about my elegant solution so that you can forever avoid guilt tipping. So let's understand just where are Americans tipping today? The situations when people add a gratuity. You know, this really offers some insight into the new tipping landscape. And again, this is according to Pew Research for dining at sit down restaurants, 92% of people are tipping there. And of note, a majority said that they would tip 15% or less for an average sit down meal. That kind of surprised me, because etiquette experts say the tipping 20% at a full service restaurant is standard now, and that's what I do.   Keith Weinhold (00:27:48) - Okay, getting a haircut 78% of people tip today. Having food delivered 76% for those using a taxi or rideshare service like Uber, 61% of people said that they would tip. I tip for all those things. Buying coffee. Only 25% of people leave tips and eating at fast casual restaurants only 12%. So look, people are upset because we've had years of high consumer price inflation and service inflation on top of that. And then a tip on top of that. Yeah. So it's tip relation on top of inflation. And then there is this preponderance of restaurants especially. It suggests that you tip the post-tax amount. Have you noticed that that means that you're also paying a tip on the tax that you pay? So just pay attention to that next time you're at a sit down, full service restaurant, or really most any other place that suggests a tip amount. And yeah, that's annoying. And I really doubt that that business sends that extra revenue to the IRS where you're paying a tip to the tax amount.   Keith Weinhold (00:29:00) - Gosh. But it all comes back to tip and the influx of automatic prompts at businesses like coffee shops, it gives you more chances to tip, and it'll just wear you down and then wear you out, creating this sense of exhaustion thinking what is all this for? It is just wild. If supermarkets are asking you to leave a tip for self checkout, your supermarket wants to outsource their checkout duties from clerks and cashiers to you, asking you to scan your own groceries. By the way, that is an example of service inflation. And then they ask you for a tip. On top of this food inflation and service inflation, you're doing it all yourself. What is next? You're going to have to unload the store's delivery of food from the 18 Wheeler truck in the back, onto a forklift, and onto the shelves yourself. I kind of doubt that. But if grocery stores are convenience stores, self-serve kiosks, if they're requesting tips, then it's more likely that soon enough, your human checkout clerk is going to start requesting tips.   Keith Weinhold (00:30:09) - When you're checking out at Whole Foods or Publix or Wegmans or Safeway, that human checkout clerk that's going to appear as some sort of small luxury comparatively. I mean, I would expect that to come to your town next. Expect to see it if you haven't already. There used to be this general understanding of what different tip amounts convey to servers and workers. Now, decades ago, it used to be a 10% tip meant, all right, well, hey, it wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great either. A 15% tip was normal and 20%. That meant that person did an excellent job. But now those amounts have all become expected and they've all been bumped up 5% or more. All right, well, here's my solution to avoid guilt tipping the way to no longer see a digital payment terminal spun around put in your face. Putting you on the spot to make a nice tip is just this two word solution pay cash. Yes, when you pay cash, you don't have to see an electronic payment terminal at all.   Keith Weinhold (00:31:18) - And it's far easier for you to ignore a physical tip jar that's sitting on the counter over to the side of you. The elegant and simple solution to guilt tipping is to pay cash. Now go ahead and leave a tip for good service if you want to. I'm not here to suggest that you stop all tipping. It's about how you can make an elegant circumvention of guilt tipping. If you have an eight second long exchange where you ask for a cup of coffee and they turn around and pour it from a spout and hand it to you. And that's all they did. Well, that tips discretionary. The bottom line is that you don't have to tip every time you're prompted. And now go ahead and hit up that ATM with cash. You will be armed and you can avoid guilt tipping completely. And hey, can we say that you will be fighting back like David Horowitz? Tipping is fine, but guilt tipping is out of control. And hey, if you want to see more on guilt tipping, I really brought it to life on a video recently where I really broke it down.   Keith Weinhold (00:32:25) - That is on our YouTube channel. We are consistently branded as they say. Our YouTube channel is called get Rich education. So you can watch me talk about guilt tipping and show you more over there. Do you feel like the world that you're living in is increasingly uncertain and unsafe? And is that adversely affecting your investment decisions? That happens to some people and you can't make gains when you stay on the sidelines. I think some people make too much of uncertainty, even though it has always existed. Just look at the last about four years. You know, someone could have said, I am just paralyzed with inaction because of the pandemic. Oh, that's uncertain then the recession fears uncertain, then rising interest rates where they rose fast, uncertain. And today it might be wars uncertain. And you know, the same people that get paralyzed with uncertainty. They will soon say something next year like, well, it's a presidential election year. So. I think uncertainty is going to sideline me again. If you wait for uncertainty to abate, such as you have complete clarity or even great clarity, you're going to be waiting your entire life.   Keith Weinhold (00:33:47) - Uncertainty and an absence of complete safety that's existed in the world every single day since the day that you and I were born and before you and I were born. And it will exist after we're gone, too. I mean, really, just look at some of these disasters that have taken place just this century, and we're still in the first quarter of this century. And let's look here at some just in the US, not foreign crises. I'm thinking about the Y2K bug, the September 11th terrorist attacks on the World Trade Towers in the Pentagon, the Iraq war, the invasion into Afghanistan, Hurricane Katrina, where 1800 people were killed, the GREAtrillionECESSION, the Arab Spring, the surprise of Donald Trump becoming our president in 2016. Remember, that was a real upset over Hillary Clinton. How about the jarring events of January 6th of the Capitol less than three years ago, the eviction moratorium, the slow creep of climate change, the riots and civil unrest with the George Floyd protests, the wildflowers from California to Maui.   Keith Weinhold (00:35:00) - I mean, I could go on and on about how winners just keep thriving despite a world that's constantly uncertain and unsafe. And I'm only talking about things that involve the United States here, and I'm keeping it confined to this century just a little more than two decades. I mean, before that, we had World wars. We had the Dust Bowl, Cuba's Bay of pigs invasion in the Cuban Missile Crisis that could have led to a nuclear apocalypse that completely destroyed the entire world. There is relative clarity today compared to all that. How about an assassination attempt of our President Reagan? I mean, things are substantially more certain today in a lot of ways. And today, American employment is strong, GDP is growing. Our currency is fairly stable despite our problems, which will always exist. Today, the US economy is outperforming everybody in the world. And in a world that some feel is uncertain and unsafe, just consider the relative sense of certainty and safety you have today. Well, we discuss wars today. As bad as they are when they do happen, they're never on US soil.   Keith Weinhold (00:36:13) - Can you imagine an attack on American soil? How would that sound? Like? The enemy has destroyed and taken control of Charleston in Savannah. And next they're moving inland to take down Atlanta. I mean, that's so unlikely that your mind isn't even conditioned to think that way. But the reason that it seems, seems like your world is getting less certain and less safe is because of media. Media is more fractured than it's ever been. It wants your attention. So with more competition with everything from YouTube videos to TikTok clips now competing with legacy media, you get introduced to more fear in order to get your attention. My gosh. I mean, is American life safer than ever? You can make the case that it's become too safe even. I've talked to you before about how things could very well be in safety overboard mode in real estate. Now here we talk about providing clean, safe, affordable and functional housing. But she should need GFCI outlets all over the place in your property, and carbon monoxide detectors and fire rated doors, even when their improvement to your safety is negligible.   Keith Weinhold (00:37:32) - American society at large is so ultra safe and in fact, there's even a term for this now it's called safety ism. Yeah, look it up. It's how excessive safety is becoming harmful to society. When you are on your last passenger plane flight at night and you just wanted to take a nice nap, or you wanted to get some sleep, did the pilot come on to the intercom system and wake you up, telling you to sit down and put your seatbelt on every time? Just a small amount of turbulence was being felt. Oh, there are endless instances like that where society's gotten so safe that it's just annoying. The last time that I was shopping at Lowe's, the home improvement store, a forklift driver was slowly driving the aisles really carefully. And besides just the forklift driver sitting on the seat, there was a second man, a flagger, that was out in front of him, walking, holding two little flags. So the shopping customers knew that a forklift. This coming. Like, that's such a wild hazard to human safety.   Keith Weinhold (00:38:37) - I mean, gosh, the gross inefficiency of that just to improve safety ever so slightly. Construction workers that have to wear hard hats outdoors in an open field. I mean, our society has become Uber safe. Now, don't get me wrong, some measure of safety is definitely a good thing, but I'm underscoring the fact that historically, this world that you're living in is ultra safe and ultra certain. And then within our investing world, take a look around what can be said to be certain and uncertain. Apple. They're the world's largest company by market cap at about $3 trillion. And their risk is that eventually they might fail to keep innovating. How about Bitcoin? Bitcoin could have government crackdowns or some other lack of certainties, their money in the bank and owning Treasury bonds. All right. That's fairly safe and certain. But you aren't getting any real yield there. And in a world that feels more uncertain and unsafe than it really is, bring it back to the positive attributes of being a real estate investor here.   Keith Weinhold (00:39:46) - You know, monetary inflation is a near certainty, and so is the fact that people will pay you rent if you put a roof over their heads. Certainty. It helps to be mindful that safety is the opposite of freedom, and that having security is the opposite of having opportunity. Hey, well, speaking of opportunity, join our investment coach Norris for Grizz Live event that is to night. You can join from the comfort of your own home. You get to select from one of the two options for Florida Income property. You can select either a 5.75% mortgage rate or the 224 program, which means two years of free property management. 2% of the purchase price. In closing cost credit to you and a generous $4,000 lease up fee credit. Sign up. It's free. It's our live event tonight, the 27th at 8:30 p.m. eastern, 530 Pacific. If you're a few days late, be sure to watch the replay soon. register@webinars.com to have a chance at putting some new Build Florida Income property in your portfolio.   Keith Weinhold (00:41:00) - Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Winfield. Don't quit your day dream.   Speaker 5 (00:41:08) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.   Keith Weinhold (00:41:36) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.

In Today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, CesarRespino.com brings to you a special guest by the name of Jacob (Jake) Kent.Jake Kent is an International Speaker and the Head of Enrollment at Influencer Press, an agency with the sole purpose of helping service based businesses get their prospects 80% presold before a sales conversation using the art of Pre-Influence.Jake's message to you is:Influence is the master key that unlocks the life of your dreamsTo Connect with Jake Kent go to:IG: @jacob_t_kentjake@influencerpress.comTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

Free Masterclass About Maribeth Fox: Maribeth Fox has worked with Laura Rosenthal Casting for fifteen years and has had the privilege of working alongside major talents like Todd Haynes, Paolo Sorrentino, Oren Moverman, Joachim Trier, Ed Burns, Mindy Kaling, Anton Corbijn, and Lisa Cholodenko as well as up and coming feature directors, Guy Nattiv, Olivia Newman, & Paul Downs Colaizzo. Favorite credits include Olive Kitteridge and Mildred Pierce both for HBO, Jay-Z's music video for Smile, Wonderstruck with Todd Haynes, A Quiet Place, Modern Love for Amazon and Liz Garbus' narrative feature debut, Lost Girls. Two of her three films at the 2018 Sundance Film Festival broke sales records, Late Night and Brittany Runs A Marathon. Most recent credits include Sharper for Apple TV, directed by Benjamin Caron, Bottoms, produced by Elizabeth Banks, Murder Mystery 2 with Happy Madison, and the upcoming A Different Man from Killer Films and A24. How did you become a casting director? I learned how to work with actors, what they need you to tell them, and what they don't need you to tell them about ego. And I just decided to spend five to seven minutes with actors instead of a career with them. So I switched to casting, and I worked for CBS primetime casting for two and a half years, which was a really good learning experience, but corporate wasn't for me. I wanted to do more film, and I wanted to be freelance so my eight-week job with Laura turned into 16 years. How does a casting director get a film job? So oftentimes, we are one of the first people hired and production companies hire us, producers that know us, that know what The material is that we're drawn to. Sometimes we're hired by our directors who you hope to get repeat business if you've worked with them before. The first thing we'll do is read a script to make sure we're creatively aligned and feel like we strategically know how to cast the job. And then we're offered one of two situations. The first situation is. Attach names to this to green-light the rest of the financing. So we do that side, and then sometimes people come attached to a film, which is wonderful news. And they're like, “We just want you to cast this movie if you like it. And this is who's doing it.” So we're normally found by producers and directors, and we're one of the first hires. So, just a question I have: if you are asked to attach a name talent, and let's say it's one part, let's make this real simple, Sure. How long does it generally take to cast a film, would you say, to attach that kind of name talent if it's a good script? It's a long time. It's a long time, so much so that Laura has received producorial credit on quite a few of her features because of the time, attention, and effort it takes to get those attachments in place. You think about somebody, let's say you're offering something to somebody like Julianne Moore. It could take a month for her to read it. Not because she doesn't read quickly but she's got a lot going on. And somebody of that ilk, their whole team, has to read it. She has to read it. Everybody has to have an opinion. They have to have a discussion about it. And so we try our best to set respectful boundaries with agents and managers to say, “We really need this to be read by this time.” But if a creative team is invested in a certain person, oftentimes, that deadline will stretch. So you could be with one actor for a month or more. We try to get them sometimes to line up like their top three for each part if we're doing more than one part so that if there is a pass, it's not an utterly crushing situation. The producers knew that a writer strike was imminent, and I was a little shocked to hear what you said, that you stopped getting calls about six months before. Can you talk about that and what that was like? It's helpful to know just in terms of our similarity to what actors go through that a lot of our business is independent film and that really continued. That was not a problem. We were still getting calls. We were still getting pings for that, but in terms of the book of business that would streamers and network, which is a lot of people's businesses, they anticipated the strike. And normally, we have no shortage of things to read, think about, sign on to, or not sign on to. And I think all casting directors experienced a similar shut-off. That was very different than the strike in 2008 where we were out of work for a little while, but no big deal. But yes, like the work has been. It's been different this time around. How has it been different, do you feel? So I think a lot of people feel, there's a lot of feelings this time around. Where, as there should be, right? I obviously heartily support the actors and what they're going through, and it's, it's time, right? It's time to do this and ensure everybody gets what they're owed fairly. And also, I think there is, within the SAG interim agreement, there's some stuff where I think we all need to work together in community to understand what everybody does and what everybody is going through and maybe have a little bit of empathy and open conversation and understanding because right now, it has felt a little bit of an angrier time and I understand it. Also, It's hard to think about what life will be like after the strike ends, and I don't know. I think a backlog of projects stopped right before the strike or started to shoot, not believing the strike would fully happen. And those are the things that are going to start to go first. And those things are already crewed up. So, from my perspective, could it be an influx of new work? Maybe. I sure hope so. But also, we have to think about all the stuff that got interim agreements is stuff that mostly was already staffed. And so I wonder how much the huge influx, or if it's just going to be figuring out what's actually going to shoot now and what's going to be put to the side. The great news is that I think you're right about the flood. And actors will feel it. And start to work and self-tape again. And hopefully, it'll get back to business as usual. And I think what's very important for actors to understand is it's not only you who is on strike, it's everybody. I'm so proud to stand with the actors that I love and support in my day to day. And absolutely, we are with you a thousand percent. And also, it's real, right? Many people have turned to survival jobs that they haven't had since they were 22. Everybody's done. Employment is out. And you live in an industry town, so every business is thoroughly affected by the lack of availability of income for people. The actors are the ones who are fighting and are going to get the benefits but do remember when you get on the set, there were a bunch of other people who were fighting right along with you, who are not going to get necessarily, the benefits that you were fighting for. They were supporting you, but the hairdressers aren't going to get any more pay, or hair stylists, the grips aren't going to get anything. I think that AI is an existential crisis for actors, and I don't think that is something I cannot give up my voice and my likeness and have you pay me once and that be okay, so I do think it's a worthy fight and as you said, it's a definite fight. I also think it's in the forefront of what humanity will be dealing with. Bartenders will be dealing with it, taxi drivers will be dealing with it, it just has come. Not here first, but here. We don't do any background casting, and I don't know what that life is. But I do think about that entire loss of an industry. That will go first, right? And it already has started to go. They take your picture; they can pump you in if they need an arena full of people. I've had many family and friends during this time try to like talk in a fun way about chat GPT and those types of services. And they're like, have you played around with it? I'm like, no, I don't want to help it get smarter. And I think it will have real ramifications, and it already is having ramifications for our industry. No, I'm not going to hang out on that service, but thank you so much for asking. What do you want actors to know [00:18:00] about self-tapes? So many things. The first thing is it's a grocery store sample. If you're at Costco, yep, that's exactly right. If you're at Costco and the old woman is serving you pizza, you're not going to steal the whole pizza. You're going to take your sample of a square. We do not expect a fully baked moment for a self-tape. I think artists are artists, and folks are getting bored. And so there's a lot of Heavy wardrobe, heavy movement choice the ability and the time to make almost like a short film. It's not the job. A self-tape should look different than how you would behave if you're on a set with a DP. I think the other thing that I've noticed that I've started to see as self-taping goes on and on, as a public service announcement for actors, is... You're getting too good at them, and I'm going to explain more. I think actors are really great at self-taping now, and it can almost feel robotic at times. Because they've gotten so good at knowing and thinking about, their mentality has shifted from what I want to put forward as an artist that's unique to how can I get this job by thinking about what they might want. And so then they know what pace to do. They know what tone it is. They've done their research and all of those brave, bold choices start to get ironed out and it's safe acting work. It's still beautiful work, but it's safe because they're so good at it. They know exactly what they might want instead of infusing their own artistic uniqueness in the mix. And I think casting directors hear the plight of actors, and I think something great that's going to come out of the strike is, I think there's going to be more options offered. So some actors love the self-tape process and bless, please, if that's how you feel comfortable, wonderful. I will still take time to adjust you via Zoom. If you need an adjustment, if I get your self-tape and there's something close to there, I will still take time for you on Zoom and say, hey, and we'll workshop it together. But then there's, we really do hear actors that they want more of us again. I do think that in-person chem reads and callbacks will start to come back. In the meantime, I think casting directors are far more open to reopening Zoom rooms, to make sure that we're available in some tech-helpful live way so that we can make better connections with actors. I still get lovely, vibrant self-tapes on everything that I do. But generally, I think, there's a mindset that I've been thinking a lot about that actors carry that is, I think trained into a lot of people that it's just a scarcity mindset. And so you come out of school and you're told that your job is so hard. There are so many people competing. You're in constant competition. There's not a ton to go around. SAG releases their statistics that only 3 percent of actors are working. And it creates this mindset that can be helpfully hungry and eager. And it can also really destroy the artistic spirit of what an artist has to offer. I think within that scarcity mindset, the goal of this is how I feed my family. This is how I gain health insurance, pension, and welfare. And I can't make that brave, bold choice because we don't have a casting director anymore. You don't have us in the room to be like, “Okay, let's just do that a little bit faster here. I know the director wants this. Let's just clip it up.” Or give you a simple redirect that could really change your performance. Now, a lot of us are doing that. We are adjusting people who give great self-tapes. Actors feel like I've got one shot at this. I'm sending it off into the void. It better be exactly what I think they want. The one thing that I have always stood by is that it's one audition in a lifetime of auditions. I am going to get the opportunity to audition again, and there is enough work for everyone. What's important for me is what's going on in the work. People ask me, “what do you look for in an actor?” And I'm like I'm looking for the actor who shows up a bit early, not too early. Knows they are, knows themselves. They are good at their job and I'm also looking for someone who when the work starts, they're focused on the work and not what I think of their work. Actors do have it tough in the sense that, it's the only art form where you have nothing to stand behind. You're not painting a picture to show me. You're not singing a song, which is separate from your acting. You're not doing a dance, which is your body and your emotions. But it's just you; it's just your subjective raw emotion. And I think what a lot of actors specifically, I love my New York actors in our market, they've all been to school. They're all crafty, great actors. And I think that a lot of actors think, “Gosh, I must be doing something wrong.” And so much of film and television is just subjective look-based. If you're in an audition with me, you're probably a well-trained, good actor. And so it's not about someone being such a better actor than you are. It's about the dinner party atmosphere we're trying to create. And somebody was a better fit. So we invited that person to the dinner party and not you this time. And that's hard. You can be the most talented actor in the world. You get the opportunity, but ultimately it does come down to who doesn't blink at the end. And I also feel that it's the person who knows they are good at their job. And what I want to give actors the perspective of is, you know what? Maybe you're doing everything right. Maybe you're doing everything right. And you just need to keep doing that. Because a lot of times, it's about what's being written. Are there roles for you right now that really fit your marketing package and your type? Do you fit the world? With our eyeballs. And so that has nothing to do with your craft a lot of the time. You do have to think about this as a business. And so you think about putting somebody on set, and when we get to cast somebody and it's their first job on a set like that's a great day. There is like buoyancy and adaptability that we're looking for in people to be able in that callback setting to turn something on their head if needed, to be able to take direction quickly. And if they're not understanding what we mean or what the director means, ask a question. Nobody's going to think you're stupid. Nobody's going to think you can't hear it well, or like that you don't agree. It's okay. We all have days when we're not that great at our jobs. If I give an actor a direction that's not clear, I don't want them to yes to me and nod their head. I want them to ask me a question and follow it up. If you're not understanding, then the two takes are going to look exactly the same. Read the directions out loud. I think it's really important that when you get a breakdown and, they say, submit it this way and, specifically, do your slate at the end. One of the things that I encourage the actors I work with is to really, read the directions out loud, then you know you've heard it, and highlight anything that's specific. Speaking of breakdowns, I think. A lot of times, people's focus on the breakdown will be the small adjective-filled description that we write instead of knowing that if you've got the audition, the breakdown has already done its job, that part of your job has already been done, your agent or manager or you submitted yourself based on the breakdown. I saw your headshot. I selected you. Now it's done. So you briefly look at the breakdown and ensure you're in the realm, but actors often get old breakdowns. And it's not because we're lazy. It's because we don't want to resubmit a breakdown with a subtle change to hundreds of agents and managers. So if an actor gets a breakdown and they're 55, the breakdown says 30 to 40, they freak out or they think their manager or agent isn't doing a good job. It's you just got an old breakdown; you don't have to worry about that anymore. Focus on the work.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends on 20th December 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.  Show references: https://vectis.ventures/https://robin-hill.com/https://blackgangchine.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominic-wray-a1b52766/Dominic Wray is the Parks Director of Vectis Ventures, the parent company of the Isle of Wights two leading attractions; Robin Hill, and the UK's oldest theme park, Blackgang Chine. After 7 years of running Blackgang Chine as the Park Manager, he stepped into his role as Parks Director to play a vital position in the planning and execution of the longer term business strategy. Having been in this role for around 15 months, he has led on some big changes and transformations within the business, as well as navigating what has been a challenging year for the leisure industry as a whole. Dominic attributes much of his success, and enjoyment of his career to the people in it. Sitting on the Management Committee for BALPPA, he is a huge advocate for industry networking and enabling peer to peer learning opportunities. He then uses this platform as a way to the develop the team that he is so passionate about, allowing them to flourish into the industry known experts of their fields. Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. On today's episode, I speak with Dominic Wray, Parks Director at Vectis Ventures. We talk about Blackgang Chine, the 180 year old attraction, and Dominic shares his three top tips on transforming processes and developing superstar people. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. Welcome to the podcast, Dominic. It's great to have you on today. Dominic Wray: Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. Kelly Molson: Everyone says that at the start, and then I give them icebreaker questions, and they hate me. But this is how the podcast always starts, so you have to do them. Right. If you could enter the Olympics for anything, what would you be Olympic level at? And we're not talking it doesn't have to be sports here. It could be like baking or Olympic level complainer. Anything goes. What's your Olympic level at? Dominic Wray: I think I would actually answer the sports based question answered that. I always, when I was growing up, wanted to play in the NBA. Basketball was a big passion of mine. So I'd say I'd want to enter the Olympics as a basketball player. Kelly Molson: Okay. And do you play now? Is this something that you are actually good at? Dominic Wray: Not so much now, no. I don't want to use the old adage if I got injured, but I did. Kelly Molson: Oh, no. Dominic Wray: We'll never know if I could have made it or not. Kelly Molson: Good one. Have you ever been mistaken for someone famous? Dominic Wray: Yeah, actually, yes, twice. Someone once said to me I look like Joel Dormot. I think he's a comedian. And some of the team seemed to think I look like Mark Wright. Kelly Molson: I know this one. So I saw the picture that Laura Baxter posted of your LinkedIn. I have to say, I did a second look, Mark. Dominic Wray: Yeah. I mean, I'll take it. I think Mark Wright's the right looking chap, so could be worse, I suppose. Kelly Molson: Okay. All right. A final one. What one thing would you make a law that isn't already? I've got a good one for this. So if I could be in charge of laws, I would make it a law that nobody could just stop in the middle of the pavement and look at their mobile phone, or walk upstairs with their mobile staring at their mobile phone, not actually looking where they're going, because it just makes me want to swipe people's legs away. Because they just stop in front of you or they walk really slowly up the stairs. That would be one of mine. Dominic Wray: I'd go with, everyone needs to learn how to go through security at an airport. There's nothing more frustrating when you get there and the person in front of you isn't aware of how to go through and then there's a bit that delays the queues. Kelly Molson: Good one. That's a really good one. They get quite shouty, the security people now, don't they? When you're queuing up like, they're shouting at you about your liquids and your jackets and you take your belts off, and I'm like, "If I take my belt off, my trousers are going to fall down. I'm not even halfway there yet." I like that one. Okay, what's your unpopular opinion? Dominic Wray: My unpopular opinion is that motorists ruined the road for cyclists. Which I'm sure will be incredibly controversial. Yeah, that's my unpopular opinion. Kelly Molson: This is going to be a controversial one and I really want to know what you think about this one, listeners. Yeah, I don't agree with you, but you are a hardcore cyclist. I'm going op guess.Dominic Wray: I do pay my road tax, drive a car myself, but yeah, someone that very much enjoys road cycling. Yeah, that is definitely my viewpoint on other motorists. Kelly Molson: I think there needs to be made room for both on the roads. There's not sufficient cycle lanes in areas where there should be sufficient cycle lanes. Although I live just outside Cambridge and Cambridge is pretty good for cyclists. If this was me, I would ban cyclists from cycling through the city centre of Cambridge, because the amount of times I've nearly been run over by cyclists in the city centre is quite a lot. Dominic Wray: I will say. Not every cyclist is respectful of most receivers. It is a two way street, quite literally. Do you understand that? Kelly Molson: I like this. Right, okay, listeners, what do you think about the unpopular opinion? I feel like I've just got myself in hot water with all my Cambridge cycling friends as well. Dominic Wray: They're all going to be kicking off. Kelly Molson: We're all in trouble. We're in trouble together, Dom. It's fine. Right, tell us a little bit about your background, because you have come into attractions not from an attractions background, and I always find this quite fascinating, how people end up within the sector. You've come from banking, right? Dominic Wray: Yes, yes. I started off my career when I left school selling houses, and then I moved into banking after that. I used to work for Lloyds Bank and one of my clients was our current HR director here, lady called Paula, and I used to see her every year. She'd come in, talk about this great place that she worked and all these fun projects she was working on and how magical it was. And I remember sort of sat there thinking, "Gosh, your job sounds really interesting and you're working on these varied projects and you're getting to experience loads of cool things." She was talking to me about fireworks events and dinosaurs and cowboys and pirates. I was thinking, "I'm saya, talking about savings accounts and loans and boring stuff that comes to banking." Dominic Wray: And then one day I saw an advert in our local paper on the island for a Park Manager role for Blackgang Chine. Which is the park that Paula worked at, and I read through it and I thought, “Okay, yeah, I can do this. It sounds like I've got the skill set to do this.” Not really knowing anything about running a visitor attraction at all. So off I went to the interview, got my job and I thought, “Oh, great, yeah, if I can sell houses and I can run a bank, the only I could run a visitor attraction.” It's just taking those skills and applying them across into a different sector. Dominic Wray: Eight or nine years later, still here now and lot of a big learning curve along the way, but yeah, not a traditional route into it, but Blackgang on the island is a very iconic visitor attraction. All the children on the island have been there, had very fond memories of coming here as a child and I just thought, “Wow, what an opportunity to wake up every day and go to work in a fun”, magical place that's the complete opposite from the confines of a bank. So I thought, “Yeah, I'm going to back myself and go for it and do it.”Kelly Molson: How weird is that? Knowing that you went there as a child as well and now you actually run the place. That's massive, isn't it? Dominic Wray: Yeah, when I'm walking around, there's lots of areas of the park that are still the same and happened for many years and they carry great sentiments or walking through certain areas and they hear certain sounds or certain smells in the park and it takes you back to being a kid every day. So it's quite a magical place to work. Kelly Molson: That's really sweet. And so what was that transition like? Because I've just got this vision of you kind of like rocking up on the first day and going, "Where do I start?". Dominic Wray: Yeah. So on day one when I arrived, the gentleman who was doing the role beforehand had left. So I had a laptop set of keys and they sort, "Off you go.. And I was like, "OK, I've got to have to work this out", which I did. I was lucky enough to go to IAAPA in Orlando and I went on a week long training course, management course there around Park Management of Visitor Attractions, which I think was really interesting, really useful, gave me a great insight into the attraction space. And then I've worked through that by learning about the various different departments and functionalities of the business along the way. But it was a big change for me to go from working for a large corporate company to moving to a family owned company. Dominic Wray: Blackgang Chine has been owned by the same family for 180 years, which is the Dabell family. So it was a big shift for me from having multiple layers of people and it taking weeks to get a decision to just having to go and speak to one person as long as they say, "Yes", you're on your way. So it's enjoyable working for a much more dynamic organization where you can pivot more quickly. And that was sort of one of the surprising things, having come from a bigger company, how quickly things can move and change. But I think that's a real positive fallout. Kelly Molson: Yeah, definitely. I love that you did like a crash course, you did like your crash course, your driver's course, you didn't do those week intensive course, you did your weeks intensive course of being a park manager and that was it into the job. So what does your role cover then? Because I know you operate across two parks at the moment, so you've got Blackgang Chine, you've got Robin Hill. What does that look like for you in terms of your role? Dominic Wray: So my role sees me overseeing the parks and the strategic position. So I look after the business of the group as a whole. I was previously the park manager of Blackgang and then over the last twelve months transitioned to a new role, Parks Director, which sees me overseeing the group from more of a strategic position. So everything from opening calendars, pricing strategy, events that we're running, health and safety, you name it, all falls under my room within the business.Kelly Molson: I love that. I guess all of those things must have been the steep learning curve from banking where you clearly are very senior role, but probably not juggling quite so much in a day.Dominic Wray: Yeah, I liken it to running lots of micro businesses. We've got a retail business, food and beverage business and events business, health and safety compliance element of the business. So yeah, lots of micro businesses within the big business as a whole really. But yeah, the regulation from banking around strict processes and procedures does translate quite nicely into business and also into health for safety as well. Kelly Molson: Yeah. And there's some of the things we're going to talk about today. So we've got three topics to cover which I'm really interested in. We've got processes and systems, we've got peer learning that we're going to talk about and then we're going to talk about people and team development. So what you just said there about what you've brought, that's one of the things that I'm really interested in terms of the processes and systems because you've been through quite a transformative process in your organisation with kind of people and process actually. What have you been able to bring from banking into the attractions world that's kind of helped you with those processes and systems? Dominic Wray: I would say I learned a lot from working in a bank. One of the things was how not to do things, I'd say. In terms of life in a bank is very black and white. It's almost sort of a computer says no culture. And that really taught me that actually in real business you've got to operate a bit more in the gray. And it's much more around how can we actually make things happen and how can we do things rather than actually that's not possible. So I always say to feeling, great, well, how are we going to work around that? How are we going to make that possible? So, since I've joined the business, we've gone through quite a large transformation. Dominic Wray: It was fair to say that when I joined, the business was very much running in a sort of historic, family orientated way of we've always done it that way. That was a phrase I heard quite a lot when I first started this. I know we've done it like that because we've always done it that way. There's sort of a lot of, "Okay, explain to me why we've done it that way and what's the approach to that?". And then over the years, we've moved into using far more digital systems. So I'm big on making sure the team can see at the various levels of the organisation, the bigger picture. And I think that then helps them understand exactly what's going on in the business as a whole. And I think that through digital optimisation of systems and processes, that really helps them do that. Dominic Wray: So, for example, on the ride side of the fence, we bought in Mobaro, which is quite a well known safety system for our daily inspections. And that just gives far better visibility right the way from the ride operator, the person checking the rides, to the duty manager, all the way up to our owner if he wants to go in on a day and see what's gone on at 10:00 before the site opens. So it's really been around pivoting the organisation into becoming early adopters of technology and systems and processes. Dominic Wray: We've also recently joined the LEAP scheme, which was quite a big jump for our industry to move away from a historical scheme that had been in place for a number of years. And were some of the first, well, one of the first parks to join that scheme.Kelly Molson: For our listeners, what is the LEAP scheme? What does that mean? Dominic Wray: So we have our rides basically inspected by an independent inspection body. And LEAP is the scheme that then oversees and checks off the regulation of that inspection body in a sort of basic format. But it had historically been done by a different organisation and LEAP have come into the marketplace. And taken a different approach to how that is done, which gives far more transparency to the operators and also the customers that are coming into sites to visit as well. But it was quite a big thing for us to say, "Okay, we're going to move away from that historic way of doing it into a newer way of doing things.". But I think as a company, because we can make decisions quite quickly, we don't have a big gain of sign off to go through as a team. Dominic Wray: We can move quite quickly on things such as that as well. Kelly Molson: I really like that kind of transparent approach that you talked about because it feels like that would help with kind of unifying the kind of organisational culture as well because people have a bit more visibility about what's going on behind the scenes, so to speak. Dominic Wray: Yeah. And I think giving people the most amount of information you can give them within their job role and position within the organisation, that level of transparency just allows them to do their job better. Because if they understand what the key metrics that they're working towards and how they're performing and actually how decisions they make on a day to day basis impact the bigger picture of how the attraction performs over a 12, 24 month ongoing period, that makes them feel much more empowered. Because then they can see, actually, I've made this change over here, and that made an impact onto the bottom line over here. Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. It gives people that sense of ownership about what they're doing as well, doesn't it? Dominic Wray: Definitely. Kelly Molson: So what do you think have been the biggest transformations that you've been able to make over that period? Dominic Wray: I would say collaborative working. The organisation used to very much be I look after food and beverage, I look after retail, I look after operations and we don't talk to each other. That's my lane. Kelly Molson: So those little micro companies just kind of like they worked in their little silos and didn't really talk. Dominic Wray: Yeah, exactly. Whereas what we've done across a number of years is change the structure of the way the parks run on a day to day basis. So each of the heads of those departments do take turns of doing duty management shifts. So that gives them the opportunity to experience the park as a complete 360, interact with different departments, understand how other departments work and function. Most importantly, that gets them in front of customers in different areas of the business as well, then that helps them understand, okay, in retail or operations, we're allowing people into the park in this way. If we do this is a domino effect that then actually knocks onto something that could happen in food and beverage later on. Dominic Wray: So I think again, that goes back to giving them that bigger picture of what's going on in the company and for them to think that actually we are all one team and what someone does in one department does have a knock on effect and impact onto other departments as well. And I think that's really taken place by opening the business up a lot more. Historically, were quite closed off as an organisation, and I've been very big on getting the staff out, seeing other attractions, going, speaking to other people in other attractions, finding out how things work in other parks, other businesses. Dominic Wray: And I think that's really then enabled us to open up a lot more and we've done that also through being members of BALPPA as well, which has been quite a key point of being able us to open up the business a lot more and experience the team, to experience things outside the company as well.Kelly Molson: Yeah. So peer learning is one of the things that I'd love to explore a bit more, because I think just going back to what you said about those organisational visits, you've got a few team members that are really active on LinkedIn, so I see a lot of the things that you do as an organisation, and it's really impressive. So you do strategic team visits to other attractions to look at how they're operating, how their attractions are running, what events. You even go to some of their events and see how they've been put on. And that comes back to this whole thing about the sector being really supportive and collaborative with each other, because that never used to happen in my world. In agency world, we are far more open now than we ever were. Kelly Molson: But I couldn't imagine ten years ago me rocking up to someone else's agency and going, "Could I just sit in on your team while you work through this project and see how your project management process works?". Piss off. I would be able to do that to a number of agencies that I know there. They'd be really happy to share, but it feels like it's kind of always been that way in the sector for attractions. Is that the case? Dominic Wray: Yeah, 100%. I mean, that was one of the biggest things that shocked me coming into a new career, was actually you can go and ask people for help and ask them how they do things and they're more than willing to share the challenges and issues that they have, but also sharing the solutions to those problems as well. I mean, when I worked at Lloyds, I can't imagine ever walking over the road to Natwest and going, "Hi, can you explain to me how you do this?". They'd say, “Bugger of.”Kelly Molson: You all will have exactly the same problem. So working together to solve that problem surely helps the greater good, rather than. Dominic Wray: Everyone has the same problems. They just have it on varying scales of economy, so we might have it on this scale. You go to a bigger park, they've got the same problem, just magnified by ten. Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. But you mentioned BALPPA, which I know is an incredible organisation that you're members of. How has being kind of a member of that organisation what's it brought to the attraction and to yourself? Dominic Wray: I think it's really been transformational for the attraction, myself and the team. I think having an organisation that these business and individuals completely immerse themselves in from a learning standpoint is so valuable to me. I think it's almost like a black book. It is a black book of other attractions that you can gain access to for their knowledge, experience, processes and procedures. And as someone that came into the industry having not worked in it previous to that, I found the organisation so valuable in terms of my own personal learning and the learning of the site as well. So as an attraction, we've massively benefited from being members of BALPPA. We hosted the summer conference this year, which was a big deal for us. Dominic Wray: So everyone BALPPA came to the island and they spent a day at Blackgang Chine and Robin Hill, and we hosted a gala evening dinner at Robin Hill, which was fantastic. And that was great to show it off to peers and people within the industry and for them to kind of understand about what we do. Because obviously I go along to a lot of events with a lot of the other team and we're all sort of banging the drum about the company. But it's great for people to come and experience that firsthand as well. So I think it's helped broaden the profile of the business and also the individuals within the team as well. I think that's been brilliant for the team's personal development, but also really for their learning. Dominic Wray: The fact that there's people in the organisation that you can go and talk to about everything from ticketing strategies through to mechanical issues you've got on rides, or the fact that people are so open that you can ring them up and say, "Hey, I've got this issue with this, how do I fix it?"  I'll bring this chap, he's the person you need to go and call about this. Or, I'm a bit stuck for this spare part. Yeah, phone this person, they'll be able to get it to you quicker." And everyone's so supportive and willing to help each other. It's quite amazing to see, as I said, coming from a space where that is the complete opposite of that. It's brilliant to be involved in an organisation where if all the attractions are winning, the space is winning and the industry is winning. Dominic Wray: And I think everyone's mature enough to realise that we've all got our own individual niches and we're not all competing against each other. So actually, by helping each other and people having amazing experiences across all attractions, it just benefits the industry as a whole. Kelly Molson: Yeah, completely. It just comes back to that whole working in partnerships and not in silos again, doesn't it? You mentioned about people, this is the other thing that I really want to talk about, because you've got brilliant people that work at your organisation and you call them superstar people, which I really love. I guess BALPPA is one of the things that you've put in place to kind of help them because like you said, other team members, not just yourself, can go along to these meetings and they can benefit from the peer to peer learning that you get at those events. And actually just the networking, not even just I've been to a BALPPA event. And what struck me about it was the knowledge that was shared at that meeting. Kelly Molson: And what struck me about it was the knowledge that was shared at that meeting, it was so authentic and so transparent, actually, that you got a lot from just the talks, but actually you get even more from just networking from people that are in the same position as you, at a different attraction again, have those same kind of challenges and same kind of things that they need to talk about. And being able to just have them on speed dial is so beneficial. What else have you kind of put in place to help develop some of your superstar people there, though? Dominic Wray: So, as you mentioned, I think the team going along to BALPPA events has been a big thing for them. I think when you're doing your day to day job, you're running at 100 miles an hour, it's quite hard to sort of benchmark yourself against other people in the industry. And I've noticed that when team members have gone along to BALPPA events, they sort of come back with a sense of,” I could hold a conversation with someone from a bigger park. I'm competent at knowing what I'm doing”, which I know that they know that, but I think that helps reinforce confidence within them as well. And I just think they're fantastic spaces for developing the team's personal confidence and, as you said, their wider personal network as well, and knowledge and understanding. Dominic Wray: I mean, we've seen some of our team members, Laura, who's one of our superstars in our marketing team, she did a keynote speech on Christmas, at the BALPPA marketing conference. And it was so good. I was so proud to see her go there, deliver that, she'd been in the office working hard on it, and then just to stand up and absolutely smash it and see people's reactions to her explaining about that piece was just brilliant. And James, who oversees our site and services, he's due to do a talk on the install of our new rides at the latest BALPPA for Health and Safety Conference that's coming up as well. So I think it's brilliant for the team to be able to be on that platform and develop themselves as well. Dominic Wray: Other things that we do in an organisation as well. I think I'm really big on giving the team space to be able to do their job safely. I think it's good to allow them to give them the space to they're the experts in that area. I very much see my role is overseeing that and making sure all the pieces are coming together. But quite often I will say to them, "Guys, what do you think about this particular thing? Or how should we approach that?". Because ultimately, they're the experts within the business, within their chosen fields, and I'm big on giving them the opportunity to be the experts in those areas. I also think it's great to take some time out to learn more about them as individuals and their roles and their interests within those roles as well. Dominic Wray: So, for example, when Laura joined the business, went on a two day marketing course together. It was a conference that she wanted to attend, but I said, "I'll go with you. I'm keen to learn more about the in depth elements of marketing and I think it'd be a good shared experience for us.". And I think that then just enables the team to feel, actually I'm interested in their department and how they work and operate. And I think there's always something that you can learn from everyone that you meet and interact with. So I'm big on doing that. And then the final thing I'll say is really let them be a star in their area and promote that. Dominic Wray: I mean, the example of Laura with the marketing conference talk was brilliant. It was great to see her on stage representing the business, but also the spotlight was on her and it was about her in that moment, which was fantastic. And I think that's really good when the team feel like they can be superstars in their own arenas of their chosen fields. Kelly Molson: I love that. I remember that talk really vividly. It was really heartwarming, actually. And there was a really personal element to it as well. And you could see how much she was connected to the subject matter that she was speaking to as well. This is something that we talked about prior to coming on today, about how you've kind of supported your team as well as they kind of move through their careers and they move through what they're doing at the attractions. And one of the things that you've really helped them start to develop is their personal brands. Such a hot topic. It's one I love talking about. Kelly Molson: It's something that I've really tried to do as best as I can over the last kind of I think just prior to the pandemic, actually, I kind of started to think about what is it that I want people to remember me about, what's important to me? And if I've got a platform, how am I going to use it to talk about the things that I think are important and that other people should hopefully find as important as me. Kelly Molson: And I think what you've done there is kind of facilitate that for your team, which is really lovely to see because everybody, like you said, is working for the whole of the organisation, but they all have their own kind of individual specialisms. How have you kind of helped people or encouraged people to develop their personal brands? What are the kind of things that you've done there? Dominic Wray: I've encouraged them to get out there, engage with other people, engage within different networks. I think LinkedIn is a great tool for that as well. I think the team all do lots of amazing things every day that we all see and know that they do. But I'm big on encouraging them about, shouting about that. I think as general British people, we're quite sort of we don't like self promotion too much, don't like talking about ourselves too much. And I think having Laura, to be fair, join the team earlier in the year, who's big on her LinkedIn content and big on talking about what's going on out there, has really helped the team and pushed everyone forwards with doing that. And I've really encouraged them. Dominic Wray: You might not think anyone's going to take value from the content you're putting out or discussing that, but actually they will because there's probably someone somewhere looking at that thinking, "How do I overcome that problem?” Or “I've got a similar ride to that we're just in the process of refurbishing, maybe I can reach out to them and find out how they're doing that." So really believing in themselves and that they really are superstars in their area and they should be promoting that and talking about how great they are in the businesses that they work for. Kelly Molson: Have you seen that encouragement kind of help with some of the team's own self confidence as well? They're kind of braver about putting themselves forward for certain things. Dominic Wray: Yeah, yeah, massively. James, who oversees both of our sites from the site and services viewpoint, started off within the maintenance team one of those sites and he's worked his way up through the business. Now he's responsible for health and safety across both of them. He oversaw the install of our new ride which went in at the beginning of the year as well and it's been fantastic to see him grow and his confidence grow and develop within that. And now he's been asked to go forward, as I said, to do a talk next month about that ride install going ahead, which will be his first sort of public speaking gig, and I'll be very much there to support him along with that as well. So it's been great to watch the team develop and grow along with that and their confidence as well. Kelly Molson: That's really lovely to see. Well, I think in the past, people probably haven't wanted to highlight certain people, do you know what I mean? If we put these people out in the world, other people might steal them from us. But I think you have to develop your people and you have to let them shine in the roles that they're in because they'll just get better and better and better. So it's really lovely to see that you're encouraging that. I think it's such an important part of running a successful organisation now.Dominic Wray: Yeah. And I think the team are happier from that. I think if you give them the freedom to go out and experience other attractions and speak to other people at various different levels of organisations, they feel happier where they are. I think if you kind of constrain them and say, "Oh no, we can't allow you to go and speak to these people. We can't allow you to go and visit them because they might poach you or they might offer you a different job." Then they're going to be thinking, "Actually, maybe the grass is greener on the other side.". Kelly Molson: This is not the company for me after all. Dominic Wray: Yeah, exactly. And I think there's nothing wrong with them being having their own personal brand within the wider brand of the business. I think that's good for them. Kelly Molson: Yeah, I think so too. It's really brilliant to see what you've been developing there. Right. I would love it if you could share some top tips for our listeners. We always get our guests to share top tips. Three top tips on processes and people development that you'd encourage other attractions to adopt. Dominic Wray: My first one would definitely be, and I've already mentioned it, but get your team out visiting other attractions. Can't express enough how much they'll learn from those experiences. I think if you set it out in the right position to say, "Okay, guys, we're going to go and visit this event, this is what we're going to be looking for. This is what I want us to take back from that. When we come back, we're going to have a clear debrief to go through key learnings of that and how we're going to implement that into our business. You can still obviously have a great enjoyable experience."Dominic Wray: That's one of the best things about working in this industry is going on an R & D trip, but getting to go on a couple of roller coasters and get scared, go to the scare mazes or whatever else you're going to be doing. I think it's great team building as well. It's great for the team to go and see that. And what I find amazing is it can be anything from the way a site manages its waste or the layout of a queue line or actually I liked on the way in how this person upselled this ticket for me. There's so many things you can gain from that. Dominic Wray: I think when you're going into an attraction, looking at that from that perspective, I just think it's brilliant and there's no kind of training course that you can send anyone on that will deliver that value that they get from going and experiencing it firsthand. Kelly Molson: I'm just laughing at the excitement about waste as well like, "Yeah, we could see how they process their waste." That is exciting. Dominic Wray: That would be something that James would probably come back to say to me. But that's what I mean. Everyone of the team's interested in different things, so it's good. Kelly Molson: On this topic of the visits, do you always go to places that are quite similar to yours as well? Or do you do visits that are in complete contrast to what you do as well? To see the difference. Dominic Wray: We'll do a bit of both. Probably a good example is when we set up our Halloween event over October, when we very first did that, went to visit Tully's Farm, which was sort of, in our eyes, as the gold standard of scare attractions. The first time went there, we just went to see what is it as an attraction? How does that concept work? The overview sort of headline of that. And then over the years, as we've developed Terror Island, which is our Halloween event, which we run here, over October, we've been back to Tully's on numerous occasions. We've had Stuart, who runs that, come down to the site as well, and we're then looking at that from a different perspective. Dominic Wray: So then we moved on to, "Okay, how do we look at improving through, how do we look at improving guest experience? How do we look at upselling F&B? Where are the entrance and exit points of the mazes in relation to the broader site? How's the actual site laid out?". So we're then going back and looking at it in a sort of more detailed layer of that. But no, as a team, we'll go to much larger parks, much smaller parks, because I think there's things you can learn from all different sizes of attractions. We went to Hobbledown last year, which was an interesting experience, and we saw their water pillow there, and we actually put one of those into Robin Hill this year, which was one of our most successful attractions. Dominic Wray: So the guys there were fantastic at explaining about the pros and cons of that attraction, which then enabled us to make an informed decision as to whether to purchase one of those or not. But, yeah, I think there's things to be learned from all different types of attractions. If people are going to them with the right mindset of thinking, “What am I going to learn?”Kelly Molson: What's the objective here? What's the takeaway? Okay, great. So that's top tip one. Dominic Wray: Top tip two would be celebrate personal wins for the team and then let them be stars in that moment. I think when someone in the team does something really well and they've achieved something, it's really important to broadcast that to everyone, let everyone know about that and let them shine in that moment. And for it to be about them as an individual, not so much about the company as a whole. It's them in that moment, and you want to make them feel valued and positive about whatever the experiences that they've achieved. Kelly Molson: Nice. Good tip. Dominic Wray: And then my third one would be let people make mistakes in a safe manner and learn from it. I think in a working environment, people are quite often aware when they've made a mistake or something's gone wrong. They don't leave someone jumping up and down. Yeah, exactly. You know, when you're like, "That didn't work. I know it's not worked well," but I think allowing them to make mistakes in a safe, controlled manner that they can then learn from, because I think quality people understand when something's gone wrong, and they equally understand how to fix it and put their hands up and say, yeah, that's happened. But we're quite quick to acknowledge that and move on to how we're going to resolve it and not allow that to occur again. Kelly Molson: Excellent tips. Okay, as an organisation, what's your biggest opportunity and also your biggest challenge as we head into the winter months? Because I think you're coming to do you close over the season? Do you close down? Dominic Wray: Yes. So Saturday is our last operating day, and we close from November and we open in March. Kelly Molson: Wow. Gosh, you really are coming up to the end of the season. Okay, so what's your biggest opportunity and your biggest challenge as we head into that time? Dominic Wray: It was quite a big challenge, and opportunity for the company is that we made a difficult decision to put one of our sites on the market and we're looking to sell Robin Hill. So that will be the biggest challenge and opportunity for the business in recent years, to be fair. I think it presents a great opportunity for the business to double down and invest further into Blackgang, which is 180 years old this year. So it's a big birthday year for us. Kelly Molson: Incredible. Dominic Wray: And I think that will enable us to be here for another 180 years. Not that I might still be around at that point in time. Kelly Molson: You certainly won't look like Mark Wright at that point. Dominic Wray: No, look like a very aged Mark Wright. But I think it's the biggest challenge for the team and myself personally as we reshape the business and pivot into a new direction, but I equally think it's an exciting one to see what will come out on the other side of that as well. Kelly Molson: It is exciting, isn't it? I can imagine that having two parks to oversee can be a stretch at sometimes in terms of resource and also in terms of strategy and how things work, because I guess that they work similar but different. So, yeah, I can see that as a huge opportunity and something to I guess it's kind of a nice thing to focus on for the start of the new season as well, that's kind of progressing. And then you've got this really big opportunity to focus on this one thing and make it as the very best it could possibly be. Dominic Wray: Yeah. And the team have really taken to it. They're really passionate about driving Blackgang forwards and are very excited about the changes and the plans we've got for the next year and coming years as well. So it's been well embraced by them. Kelly Molson: Good. And I guess you're ending the season on a high as well, because we talked a little bit about your Halloween event, but it has been a really successful Halloween event this year, hasn't it? Dominic Wray: Yes, it's gone down really well. We made the sun top ten events for Halloween attractions. So yeah, it's been really well received. It's a personal favourite of mine. Absolutely love it. It's been a complete passion project for the team, and the team are always up for every event we do, but this is one that they really get behind and are in every possible conceivable bit of detail. And as someone that never used to like horror films and hated being scared, I now absolutely love going through scare attractions and love scaring other people even more than that. Complete 360 for me as well. So you don't know what you like until you try it. Kelly Molson: Exactly. You just never know where you never knew where this role was going to take you, did you? When you started this, Dominic, you never knew you were going to end up as a horror fan. Dominic Wray: Yeah, exactly. Now I'm like, "Oh no, we need to make that person over there look more dead. Or how loud we need the chainsaw louder, or that guy doesn't look scary enough." Way more interesting than ices and loans. Kelly Molson: I love it. A massive learning curve and 180 years old. I mean, that is a phenomenal achievement. There can't be many other attractions that are coming up for that age. So this is really incredible. I think you've had a really brilliant year. Can't do this podcast without talking about Radio One as well because I've been aware of Blackgang Chine for quite a while, but I think it maybe isn't on the radar of many people because it's Isle of Wight, it's not on the mainland. But I was driving back from the gym one morning and I listened to Radio One. Kelly Molson: I listened to the Greg James breakfast show on Radio One in the mornings and they were doing this thing where they had to find one of the presenters and all the presenters were hidden up and down all over the country, and they were talking about the Isle of Wight and they kept saying, Blackgang Chine. And I was like, they're talking about Blackgang Chine. Let Laura know. I need to pull over and let Laura know. Obviously she already knew that you were being talked about, but I think how many times did he say Blackgang Chine? It was a lot. Dominic Wray: It was a lot. I think it was over 50 times. I mean, my phone was going mental, mate. If you've got the presenters because it's because we have an area called Area Five with large animatronic dinosaurs, and they thought we'd hidden them down there and they were like, "God, you're really good at keeping a secret. I can't believe you haven't told us this.". And I'm like, "No, honestly, they're not here.". I don't want to actually believe me. Well, clearly no one did. Kept ringing up Radio One to talk about it, but that was a great bit of brand profile for the business and I guess sort of showed that people were associating the element of dinosaurs to the park as well. So that's obviously positive for us. Kelly Molson: It was really good press, even if we didn't have the presenter there. It was absolutely brilliant. Dominic Wray: Yeah, it was fantastic. And then everyone was almost like, they should have been here. Kelly Molson: They should have been here. We should, we need to get Greg James back over, don't you? I mean, he said it enough, so you should get him there for a visit soon. Dominic Wray: Greg, if you're listening, come down. Kelly Molson: I mean, I'd love it if Greg listened to this podcast, but it's highly unlikely. But if you are, Greg, would you like to come on? I'd love a chat with you. I'm just around the corner of Bishop Stortford. That's where you were born, right? We could be friends. Dom, thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been brilliant to chat today. We always end the interview by asking our guests to share a book that they'd like to share with their listeners. So something that you love can be work related or it can be personal, whatever you fancy. Dominic Wray: Well, I was going to think about saying the Highway Code so people can understand how to overtake cyclists, really, but I won't. My favourite podcast at the moment is a podcast called the Big Fish that's presented by Spencer Matthews. Kelly Molson: What? Hang on. Dominic Wray: Oh, sorry, my second favourite. My second well, obviously ones that I listen to after yours. Kelly Molson: Thank you. Well recovered. Dominic Wray: Once I've listened to the latest episode, I move on to Big Fish after that. Kelly Molson: Sorry, say it again. Big Fish. Who's it by? Dominic Wray: Big Fish by Spencer Matthews, who used to be on Made in Chelsea, I think, and now owns a company called CleanCo, which is a non alcoholic brand, which is quite interesting. But I like it because he interviews lots of CEOs and business owners. It's got a bit of a sports mindset focus to it, but it's also very much around the culture in those businesses, how they've built the businesses and the challenges they face within them as well. So it's quite an interesting one. Kelly Molson: I like the sounds of that. I listen to quite a lot of podcasts like that. All right, I'm going to put Big Fish on my list. Well, there you go, listeners. You can't win a copy of this podcast because I can't give it away, but I encourage you to go and have a little listen. Maybe it'll be your number two podcast as well, who knows? Dom, thanks for coming on today. It's been lovely to have you. Congratulations on 180 years and best of luck with everything that comes next. I think you've got a really exciting new chapter that's about to start and maybe you'll come back on in a year or so and tell us how it's all gone. Dominic Wray: Yeah, sounds good. Thank you very much for having me enjoyed it. Kelly Molson:  Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

BECOME A STUDENT IN THE FOOD STORAGE FEAST ONLINE COURSE Learn skills to turn basic foods into delicious meals all year long. The Food Storage Feast Online Course pays for itself with a bounty of amazing meals, it's the education you can eat! Food Storage Feast Endorsement: “Food Storage Feast is one of the most important recommendations I can make for your preparedness. Chef Keith has changed my entire perspective on how to really enjoy living off food storage.” -Joel Skoussen, Author Strategic Relocation, Publisher World Affairs Brief HARVEST EATING SPICE BLENDS ARE NOW SHIPPING We're excited to share the news that the Harvest Eating spice line is back! The supply chain issues have eased, and packaging is readily available in the quantities we need. Initially, we will have the following varieties available: Grilled Chicken Steakhouse Blend Carolina BBQ Northern Italian Check out our spice master pack containing 6 cans of our best-selling spices, perfect for Christmas gift giving, save $6 dollars and get free shipping. Montana Steak, poultry seasoning, and a breakfast sausage blend will also come later this year. Our wholesale prices have increased substantially but we have kept prices the same as before. WHAT IS ON THE MENU: one-pot spaghetti croque monsieur soft boiled eggs leek & potato soup FOOD INDUSTRY AND HARVEST NEWS: Cocoa prices are hovering around 45-year highs as futures trade over $4,000 per metric ton. TODAY'S MAIN TOPIC: Proper Thanksgiving Turkey Making a great turkey is not complicated, but it does require shelving some olf-wives tales and a few basic steps and tools. I always saw my mom basting a turkey, with a flimsy baster that once squired hot juices all over her hand. I don't recommend basting a turkey, purely a wase of time as it lets heat out, extends cooking times, and causes uneven cooking as the oven has to scramble to come back to temperature. Rubbing the brd with a little olive oil can help aid the browning process but I have achieved great results without doing that either as the skin has enough fat in it to crisp up nicely. Here are some steps to cooking the perfect moist turkey: Allow the bird some time to warm up, and remove from the fridge at 7 am the day of Thanksgiving..! Do not overcook the bird, cook at 350 degrees until the thigh reaches 165. Waiting for a pop-up timer ensures dry breasts, do not wait for that timer….watch your probe thermometer instead. Do not baste the turkey, just rotate it once after about 1.5 hours Be sure to add some liquid to the roasting dish, I use water and white wine, about a cup of each, this helps keep the bird from sticking to the pan and also helps give some great flavor to the gravy later on When my bird reaches temp, I remove it, from the oven and the roaster, I place it on a sheet tray then cover it with foil and towels to keep it warm before I carve it. I then place the roasting dish on the stove and scrape up any bits and stuff on the bottom, all that stuff goes into my gravy pot. HOMESTEAD TSUNAMI: Support local farms, especially if they have proteins. I recently bought a bunch of grass-fed and finished beef, pork, and lamb from a local supplier. ECONOMIC NEWS: Treasury has to pay back 7.6 trillion to treasury bind holders in the next year, but where are they going to get the money to pay these bondholders? In the next two years, nearly half the national debt will mature…oh GOSH! PRODUCT RECOMMENDATION: Altra running shoes-highly recommended! CLOSING THOUGHTS: Visit local farms and support them! RESOURCES FOR THIS EPISODE: https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/cocoa-prices-futures-high-chocolate-nino-shortages-harvest-commodity-scarcity-2023-11 https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/bonds/us-debt-maturing-bond-yields-treasury-bills-federal-reserve-qt-2023-9   LINKS TO CHECK OUT: Harvest Eating Spices Support Harvest Eating Enroll in Food Storage Feast Brown Duck Coffee About Chef Keith Snow LISTEN TO THE PODCAST: On iTunes Fountain FM Stitcher Radio Player FM Google Top Podcast Audible Podbay

I had the pleasure of meeting Teri Wellbrock a few weeks ago and almost at once asked her to be a guest on Unstoppable Mindset. As with all our guests I asked her for a biography. What I received was a story about a woman who, from the age of four years old, experienced a variety of sexual and physical abuses and later was clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time as she experienced two bank robberies. In both robbery cases her life was in danger from gun-toting robbers. She will tell us all about her early life.   More important, Teri will discuss how she was able to overcome her early life and become a successful psychologist whose main goal in life is to help others. She has a great deal of experience in dealing with emotional trauma and healing. We will talk about some of the techniques she uses and which were utilized to help her.   Teri is a wonderful and engaging person. I am sure you will find her worth hearing. You also can seek out her podcast which she discusses near the end of our episode.     About the Guest:   Teri Wellbrock is a trauma warrior, having survived and thrived after learning to cope with her C-PTSD symptoms and 25 years of severe panic attacks by utilizing EMDR therapy, personal research and learned coping skills along with a foundation of faith and positivity. She is currently writing a book, Unicorn Shadows: From Trauma to Triumph – A Healing Guide, about her multiple traumas, with the intent to help others reach their own joyous and peaceful existence via her “story of hope”. She also speaks publicly about her triumph over trauma, including guest appearances on Healing from Grief and Loss online summit and Avaiya University's Overcoming PTSD online event. Teri is mom to three beautiful children (ages 29, 27, and 17); graduated magna cum laude from the University of Cincinnati with a Bachelor's Degree in Psychology; has written a children's book, The Doodle with the Noodle, with her daughter, about their Therapy Dog, Sammie the Labradoodle; has created the Sammie's Bundles of Hope project (bags filled with trinkets of hope donated to children with trauma history); and is producer and host of The Healing Place Podcast on iTunes, Pandora, Spotify, YouTube, iHeartRadio and many more audio outlets (now downloaded in 125 countries and ranked in the TOP 2% globally out of 3.1 million shows). She maintains a blog at www.unicornshadows.com and writes a monthly Hope for Healing Newsletter. Teri's professional history includes sales, managing, teaching, and case management with a mental health agency. Her life p urpose is to make a positive difference in the lives of others and shine a light of hope into dark spaces.   Ways to connect with Teri:   WEBSITE www.teriwellbrock.com www.unicornshadows.com   FACEBOOK https://www.facebook.com/TheHealingPlacePodcast/   LINKEDIN https://www.linkedin.com/in/teri-wellbrock/     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes     Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:22 Well, greetings all once again. It is time for unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike Hingston. And today we get to have a lovely conversation with Teri. Wellbrock. Teri has a great story to tell. And she talks about C PTSD and other things. And I'm anxious to learn about that, but just anxious to really get to know Teri better. So we'll jump right into it. And Teri, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Teri Wellbrock ** 01:50 Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here. And yeah, I'm, I've loved our conversations that we've had beforehand. And we were laughing so hard at finding movies that we love and yeah, it's gonna be great competition.   Michael Hingson ** 02:05 Yeah, still not too much better than Young Frankenstein. But, you know, it's   02:09 still one of my all time   Michael Hingson ** 02:13 I have yet to find somebody who remembers though, when when I start to talk with them. When I say Dr. Franken stone. They don't say that's Frankenstein. Right. Of course, if they did that, then I go. So it's Frederick Frankenstein. Yes. And you must be Igor. No, it's I go, I go. I spelled it Igor. Are they going to Rome and didn't they? Oh, Mel Brooks.   Teri Wellbrock ** 02:46 Yes. Oh my gosh. Again. I love Madeline Kahn, Madeline   Michael Hingson ** 02:49 Kahn. Well, Madeline Kahn. Leachman, Terry gar all of that crowd Marty Feldman. Yes, Gene Wilder all of them. What a group Well, anyway, we're really glad you're here and well, thanks. We can talk about them on another podcast and take a whole hour and have a lot of fights right quote the whole movie and that's it. Yeah, we could just do it you know. I can take care of that hump. What what   Teri Wellbrock ** 03:22 you're gonna hear me snort laughing here.   Michael Hingson ** 03:26 Well, tell us a little bit about kind of the earlier Teri the young Teri and all that how you started out and kind of stuff.   Teri Wellbrock ** 03:34 Yeah, all that fun stuff. So when I when I stand on stages, or when a microphone in my hand and give presentations, I say I always start with my my trauma story, because I want to paint the picture of what I had gone through, but then I get to the happy and hopeful part. So so my early life my first 22 years of life are filled with horrific trauma. And I will gladly share I don't have a problem sharing the not gory details, but just a quick painted picture. When I was for an intoxicated parent attempted to drown me and my sister in a bathtub. When I was five, I was sexually molested by a 16 year old neighbor. When I was nine, I was sexually molested by a 19 year old neighbor when my mom sent me to borrow a can of soup. When I was 14, I was sexually accosted by a religious education director. I worked in the evenings for priests in our parish, and he was he was there and that evening, when I was 16 lost my virginity to date rape. Later that same year I was attacked by a gang downtown Cincinnati and sexually accosted later when I was 17, a police officer involved in that investigation asked my parents if he could take me to dinner to celebrate the convictions for that gang attack and my parents were like, Oh, he's a police officer, of course. But he did not take me to dinner. He took me back to his apartment where he attempted to rape me. 21 I was involved in a bank robbery a gun was held to my head and my coworker was stabbed three times with a hunting knife. I switched to our main office where my 19 year old sister worked. And three months later, the same assailants who had not been caught, would come back only this time, would pull the trigger and murder my coworker. I had run from the back of the bank and came face to face with an armed the second armed assailant, and he pointed his Luger at me, but the gun misfired and my life was yet again spared. My dad was physically abusive during the first 10 years of my life. So my life, those first 22 years were filled with chaos. And I after that second bank robbery started to have horrific panic attacks, and not understanding the impact of trauma on the body, particularly for children and not being able to process trauma. And so really spent the next 25 years trying to figure out how to survive and live in this. The destruction that had happened during those early years of my life. And then on 2013 stepped onto the healing path and everything changed. So that was a.   Michael Hingson ** 06:28 And as I recall, your sister was actually at the desk where your co worker was killed, but she had just gone away for a break or something. Yes,   Teri Wellbrock ** 06:39 she had just asked to go on break. And the arm the gunman came in firing into the ceiling. And my sister dove under a desk. She was just walking away. And the young lady that was murdered was the one that took my sister's place on the teller line. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 06:57 So how is your sister cope with all that?   Teri Wellbrock ** 07:01 We talk quite often about how we come out, okay. You know, we say sane, and then we giggle and laugh about it. Because, you know, there's those moments we don't feel so sad. But neither of us are alcoholics. I mean, our mom was an alcoholic favorite. Neither of us turned to drugs and alcohol to cope. We, we have both done a lot of therapy and a lot of healing work. You know, I've done alternative healing, like EFT, tapping and mindfulness and meditation. And so a tremendous amount of it comes across my radar, I'm going to give it a whirl and see if it helps me along my journey. So my sister is very similar. She's certainly done a tremendous amount of healing. And she is a phenomenal artist. And so her, she releases and processes a lot through her artistry, and it's just such a gift.   Michael Hingson ** 08:04 Well, yeah, that's an awful lot for anyone to go through. And I'm sitting here kind of saying to myself, and all I had to do was to get out of the World Trade Center on September 11. And my gosh, look at what you've done. It's not just been one time, but it's just been challenge after challenge. And you've obviously gone through it and been pretty successful what really turned it around,   Teri Wellbrock ** 08:30 I would say my degrees in psychology. So after the second bank robbery, if you get married, had kiddos and I decided I really want to go back to school. I had gone for a year and a half and then dropped out of college. But this time I want to go and get my degree in psychology and understand. I still didn't understand trauma still didn't you know, that wasn't on the radar yet. But I wanted to understand. My mom had been through two bank robberies, and why Why was she handling it different? She didn't have panic attacks, what was going on. So I went back to school got a degree in psychology, which eventually led me to work in a mental health agency and through the school systems, and I was working with some kiddos again back in 2012 2013. And we were doing things like Kid yoga and art therapy to work through feelings that were coming up. We were doing bullying work we were doing so a lot of those things. And it was like this. I don't call it no fear. It's an angel whisper an aha moment, whatever it was, but it was just like the light bulb went off. And I remember being at home and thinking, holy moly, this stuff is helping me. And I realized in that moment like I was working with these kids, that really Little Teri's like little me was still inside there going, I need this, I need this. And so I ended up reaching out to a counselor and saying I need help with this. And after a few sessions, I think she realized that it was beyond her abilities. And she said, Teri, have you ever considered EMDR therapy and I was like, What the heck is EMDR Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. So it's a therapy that was developed by Dr. Shapiro, and she was working with soldiers returning from war. And realize that during therapy sessions, she would notice that their eyes were moving back and forth similar to REM sleep. And they were processing. The trauma is similar that we do with our, again, in REM sleep when we're dreaming. And so she developed this process where those who have been through traumas can either look at a light bar and have their eyes go back and forth, or hold on to vibrational paddles, which I did, I kept my eyes closed, because I found I was too distracted peripherally. But if I kept my eyes closed, I could hold these paddles, and they would vibrate, left right legs, back and forth, and my hand and it would create the same movement in my eyes. And and then I was able to return into traumatic events. So we would specifically go back to the first bank robbery or an event that had happened, and I would allow body memories to come back or visuals to come back whatever it was, that would surface. And then slowly, slowly, slowly over four years, 98 sessions we processed. So much of that trauma. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 Interesting. I, I'm sort of sitting here going to myself, I wonder how that would work with a blind person. But I guess with the vibrating paddles, because we don't, especially blind from birth, eye movements are pretty foreign to me, but I know that they're there. So it would be interesting to explore that someday,   Teri Wellbrock ** 12:28 I still was thinking it is it was coming out of my mouth. I thought, oh my gosh, I wonder if they've ever done EMDR with someone who's blind? Because do blind people? Did the eyes move during REM sleep is one?   Michael Hingson ** 12:42 Oh, sure. I'm sure they do. You know, dreaming is dreaming. And with dreaming, we use the sensations and the senses that we have. But I think REM sleep is something that is common to everyone. So I am sure that that it would be and that it is I have never awake to know whether I exhibit it, but I'm sure it does. I would be really surprised if it if it's not. What I don't learn to do is to have control over eye movements. And maybe that's why it's not an issue, it'd be the same thing. Blind or not, because I don't know how to look up or look down. But that doesn't mean my eyes don't move. Right. So I'm sure that REM sleep is is there. And and since as you pointed out, you use the panels, which essentially allow for the same sort of thing to happen. I wonder how that would work? It would be interesting to explore that.   Teri Wellbrock ** 13:43 Yeah, I had, I had one therapist or similar counselor that had tried, where I had earphones on as well. And it was like the alternating the sound, alternating ears that just again it for whatever reason. caused my eyes to go right, left, right, left just just a slight little movements. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 14:07 But it doesn't take much to be noticed. So right. Interesting. The after researching, I think it would be an interesting thing to to explore. You know, the the reality is, is is not the only game in town, but it doesn't mean that we all really function differently. It's just that we use different techniques to get to the same place but some of these basic physiological sorts of things I think are pretty common across the board. But it would be interesting and maybe somebody who's listening to this will reach out and and have comments for us which would be fun to hear.   Teri Wellbrock ** 14:40 Yes, let me know let me know let me know if you find something out. I'll let you know if I find something out. Yeah, there   Michael Hingson ** 14:45 you go. Well, but nevertheless, you you were able to overcome all of it and be able to move forward. So you you went to college? Yeah, got your degree you got Your psychology degree Yes. Did you go to get any kind of a masters or I didn't,   Teri Wellbrock ** 15:05 I was I was going to go on for my PhD in psychology, I wanted to work with kids. And I took a child abuse course. And again, it was one of those moments where it was like teary in hindsight, I say, oh, you should have known, because I just remember being so overwhelmed by the content, the videos that we were presented with the reading materials, I think that was the time I read, a boy named it or called boy called it and it was about horrific physical abuse and emotional abuse. And just remember, some crying some so much struggle with it, and I had the conversation with myself of, I don't think I can do this, because I would want to take every one of these kids home with me just show them what, you know, being protected and safe really is and I want to, you know, kill the parents, again, not understanding trauma, because it wasn't on the radar at that time. Because this was back in I graduated in 99. So it was just starting to be talked about the impacts of trauma.   Michael Hingson ** 16:16 Yeah, that's the the other part about this whole concept of mental health, and, and growing is that, for the longest time, we, we never would talk about it. I was actually talking with someone, I think just yesterday on one of our podcast conversations, who said that, you know, when they grew up, which was in relatively the same kind of timeframe that I did, children were supposed to be seen and never heard. And they were discouraged from talking. And so it's only in more recent times that we start to really hear that kids and adults start to really talk about some of the things that go on in their lives. And they are the better for talking about it. But unfortunately, we see I'll still have all too many people who say, we don't want to talk about that that's not relevant. Right?   Teri Wellbrock ** 17:11 Oh, gosh, talking about it. That's one of the biggest things I one of my favorite things to discuss is the importance of putting our stories out there sharing our truths. I know one of the things that I really study a lot now is aces, which are adverse childhood experiences in the impact of aces on so many things in adult lives, if children go through and they are not given the opportunity to do their processing work, which is talking about their, their traumas, or working through it, if they can't, or don't want to talk about it through other healing resources, such as tapping, and there's other somatic healing resources. But aces have an incredibly profound effect on having cancer having heart disease, I mean physical ailments, suicide ideology, you know, suicide ideation, depression, anxiety, panic attacks, these are the mental health portion of it. spiritual issues early, you know, sexual explorations, there's just it has an incredibly profound effect on kids. And so yes, it needs to be talked about 100%.   Michael Hingson ** 18:33 And we discourage kids, although I think they're, obviously things need to be monitored, but we discourage kids. We did and do discourage kids from really exploring and learning and being allowed to ask questions. Yeah, way too much. And my parents were, were really pretty good about it. They they encouraged, especially me, I think, because my brother, who was two years older was able to see but for me, especially, they, they were pretty incredible. They encouraged me to ask and to explore, and they allowed that. I'm sure they want it monitored, and they watched but they encouraged it, which was pretty cool.   Teri Wellbrock ** 19:21 Yeah, I certainly did with my three kids, because I wanted them to have such a different experience than I had because my dad was. He was six foot six 280 big strong guy, very violent my first 10 years of life, but my dad sought counseling. And I'll never forget when he sat me on his lap at 10 years old and said, Terry, I realized now after meeting with this therapist that I was taking my frustrations with your mother's alcoholism, girls and hitting you and I never should have hit you and I'll never hit you again and he didn't. And so he did healing work which She was incredibly impactful on my life. I was just gonna say that. Yeah, yeah, to see him and to apologize to his kid. And that was a huge lesson and forgiveness, which is a lot of work that I've done, I've done tremendous forgiveness work for all of my abusers, or the assailants that have crossed my path for myself, nor so for, not for them, but for me, you   Michael Hingson ** 20:30 can't, you can't hold it in, you can't just sit there and hate. I met a person. reasonably soon after September 11. He had been a fireman. And he decided to join the New York Police Department because he wanted to kill all the terrorists that did everything or they might do anything to the United States. And I thought at the time, I appreciate your dedication, but that's a horrible reason to become a police officer.   20:57 Right?   Michael Hingson ** 20:59 You know, we can't hate and I never did hate the people who did what they did on September 11. What I always thought was, you got what you deserve. You're not here anymore. And I'll bet you didn't get to go up to heaven and find 72 Virgins waiting for you either. Right? I doubt that very seriously. And I'm sure that's the case. But, you know, it wasn't a religious thing. It was a bunch of hoods a bunch of thugs who decided they wanted to try to have their way with the world, and they use the name of religion to do it. But I know that that's not what the Islamic religion is all about.   Teri Wellbrock ** 21:44 Yeah, I agree. I think it was radical. Sorry. I'm moving Max. onto my lap again.   Michael Hingson ** 21:52 Are we are we getting? Are we getting bored Max.   Teri Wellbrock ** 21:56 He was getting he was getting I want to go run and bark at something. So   Michael Hingson ** 22:02 Max is a Schnoodle. Part Schnauzer, part poodle, for those who don't know, cuz that came up before we started talking on on the recording, but that's what Max is. Yeah.   Teri Wellbrock ** 22:14 So as to be my co host or my co guest right now.   Michael Hingson ** 22:18 You know, Max has anything to say it's okay. But, you know, he's got to speak up.   Teri Wellbrock ** 22:23 Right, right now he's just I'm rocking him in my arms. He wants to down and then he decided no, I won't back up. So there was a there was a moment where we were having a little bit of   Michael Hingson ** 22:33 now what's the Labradoodles name? That Sammy,   Teri Wellbrock ** 22:35 she's seeing me she was a registered therapy dog. So we used to volunteer with kids in school when we lived in Ohio. And that was, oh my God, it was so fulfilling, like, just great soul work. To be able to go into the schools, we worked through the counselor's office. And Sammy has a gift as he as I'm sure you know, there's these dogs have a way of just connecting beyond words. Alamo   Michael Hingson ** 23:06 doesn't know a stranger, although he does know he's got to focus on his job. But I'm sure that if he ever changed careers, he'd be a wonderful emotional support dog or a therapy dog. But he's great at what he does. And he even likes our kitty. So that works out well. Good. And the kitty likes him. So it's fair.   Teri Wellbrock ** 23:28 That's good. I keep joking and saying Sammy needs a cat. The rest of the family is not going along with me kiss. Sammy, she's just the sweetest, sweetest soul.   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 Well, how old are the kids now?   23:40 The the   Michael Hingson ** 23:42 your children, your grandchildren?   Teri Wellbrock ** 23:44 Yeah. The human children. Those are the ones they are. So I have my son, oldest son is in Denver. He's going to be 30 This year I had around it. And then my youngest son is 27. And then we have a 17 year old daughter. So they're all great, wonderful kids. And then Sammy has got a birthday coming up. Gosh, next week, the 23rd. And   Michael Hingson ** 24:11 is your daughter going to be a senior in high school?   Teri Wellbrock ** 24:13 She is Yeah. I said she's headed off to take the AC T in a different city tomorrow. She just left and so yeah, all that fun stuff. We get to go touring colleges. She wants to be a pilot. Is that not crazy? I love it. Now I I'm just so blown away because I see those jets up in the air and I think how does that tube fly and that plummet to the earth and here my kid wants to wants to fly so she flew a plane at 16 for Christmas. We gave her a discovery flight and they took her up an instructor shook her up he lifted it off, but once it got into the air her, she flew it the entire time over the islands here in South Carolina, and then flew it back to Savannah international airport and he landed it.   Michael Hingson ** 25:10 Wow. That's pretty cool. Well, you know, if that's what she wants to do, and she ends up being good at it, then great. Yeah,   Teri Wellbrock ** 25:17 I think she'll really pursue it. So she wants to apply for Delta.   Michael Hingson ** 25:22 A lot better than being a driver on the road. I'll tell you. Oh, for sure. As the I have, I still am of the opinion that we can't have autonomous vehicles any too soon, because we need to take driving out of the hands of drivers.   Teri Wellbrock ** 25:36 I see it all the time. And people think I'm crazy for it. Because I say self driving vehicles, at least that will give you a better chance of surviving someone else. Yeah, you know, driving crazy. So yeah, I think it's awesome. I say we make   Michael Hingson ** 25:54 sense to me. Yeah. So you have, you've obviously become much more aware of yourself, and you have you have thought about and obviously decided to move forward and not let all the stuff that happened to you. Take you down, if you will, how did how did you do that? And how? Well, let me just do that. How did how did you do that? And, you know, do you still think you have a ways to go or what?   Teri Wellbrock ** 26:29 Yeah, that's a great question. And I used to ask myself that a lot. I would be like, how did I make it through all of them? What? Because people would tell me all the time, Terry, you radiate joy, you just have this light about you? And I would. And then they'd hear my story. And they would say how, how did you get through all of that, and you still just have this joyousness? And for life, one of my nicknames and I don't know, am I allowed to say a cuss word on your show, if you want. So one of my nicknames is glitter shitter. Because people were just like, you know, you're always looking at the positive, you're always just in so I didn't understand for a long time again until I started doing my my my trauma studies and understanding, resilience in importance of resilience. And so I had people in my life that helped me, not just survive, but believe in myself enough that I had built an incredible amount of resilience and ability to overcome. And my grandma Kitty was, quote, unquote, my, my babysitter, so my, my mom worked full time. And my dad would run, try to run various businesses, he struggled a lot because they would fail. And then he would start another one. But my grandma was the one that was home with me and my little sister. And she was the kindest, most loving, most gentle soul in simple things, like just peeling me an apple, or sitting me on her lap and watching general hospital together. I mean, it was just simple little gestures of love and kindness that helped me survive the chaos that was going on around me constantly. My my best friend's parents were, I would spend the night a lot at her house because it was just a gentle kind place to be her parents were very loving, kind people. And they felt safe there. And so they know   Michael Hingson ** 28:45 some of the things that were going on with you.   Teri Wellbrock ** 28:48 Nobody knew. Okay, no, I didn't. I didn't share any of it. And I was in my 30s. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 28:56 But you felt safe there. You were saying? Yeah, yeah. So   Teri Wellbrock ** 28:59 it just again and I had a teacher so so we talk about trauma and in particularly aces adverse childhood experiences in kids. And what it is that the kids who are going through difficult situations, you know, maybe addiction at home or physical abuse or divorce or whatever it is that's causing some chaos in their life bullying at school. And that one of my previous podcast guests, Dr. Janine conahey. She was working on a program and what it was hashtag one caring adult. And that is, that's the key. That really is the key. It's having those people in place that help a child, believe in themselves, help a child know they're loved, help a child know that. Somebody is looking out for them. Someone cares. That makes him a powerful difference.   Michael Hingson ** 29:57 Yeah. You meant shinned that you wandered sometimes with your mother being an alcoholic and so on. And if you didn't take that path, did she ever change her path? Or did that ever? Did she ever get any better?   Teri Wellbrock ** 30:15 Yeah. And that's such a great story. Oh my gosh. So my mom just died this year on my birthday. So March 14 of this year, but my mom was a severe alcoholic my entire life. And in her early 80s, she hit her rock bottom. I was visiting my son in Colorado, we were in Estes Park, having a beautiful vacation and the phone rang. And that was the hospital saying, Hey, your mom is here. She's been detoxing, and we need someone to come pick her up. And I was like, I'm done. I'm done. I can't do it anymore. I was always the Savior. I was always the good girl, the one that would go in and clean up the mess and make everything better. And it couldn't do anymore. It's very codependent relationship. And so I walked away from her for three months. And it was the hardest thing I've ever, ever, ever done in my life. I cried every day. I thought I was a horrible human. But it was during those three months, when my sister had walked away, the grandkids had walked away. I had walked away. My dad was had died years before. And she was left to pick herself up by herself by herself. And she was very religious, very Catholic person. So she had a talk with her Jesus picture hanging on her wall. It she, she did it. And she lived for almost three years sober. And she would talk about it though I had her on my show twice. And we talked about the trauma. We talked about her journey. And she started to understand the the role that alcohol played in helping her survive her own childhood trauma. And so we I explained to her what what childhood trauma hit was doing to her. And she finally finally started to share her horrors that she had lived with and hadn't told anyone in 80 something years. And it started to help her heal. And she wasn't needing to turn to alcohol as much. In the end. She was diagnosed with liver cancer and cirrhosis of the liver. So the algo had done its damage. And then she dove back into the bottle because she took that as God's way of saying, Well, you got cancer and cirrhosis. So mice, Well, Justin, enjoy the booze. So she did. And it was the booze that ended up killing her she fell and couldn't survive. She just had to go into hospice and just couldn't, couldn't pull out of it that last time. So it   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 is it is still sad. I you know, I know there are people that drink a lot. And I'm sure that it's mostly to, to hide or cover up things, but that's what they do. But I've never never felt a need to do anything like that. For me. I got to work through it, whatever it is. Yeah,   Teri Wellbrock ** 33:33 I'm the same. I didn't like that feeling. I mean, I certainly drank in high school, it was it was the 80s. And it was like the thing to do. And it was more of a party scene social thing, but not a coping thing. And so it was very easy. It was very easy for me to step away from it and realize I don't drink now it doesn't mean I can't Yeah, I just I just choose not to I will go out to dinner and I have water. It's just what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 34:02 I can have a drink every so often. And I will do it to be sociable. But it is weeks between a single drink if I have one. And I only do it because I'll just try to do it tonight. And that's it. We lived up near Napa for a while and so my wife and I would buy wine and that was always fun and but again, never any excessive amount. So a glass of wine, which can be healthy, but I've just never found the need to drink. Although I do like to tease. I always tell everybody I know that I feel bad for people who don't drink because when they get up in the morning, that's as good as they're gonna feel for the rest of the day. I watch and listen to Dean Martin. I know these things.   Teri Wellbrock ** 34:45 I'll be Martin. Yeah. But   Michael Hingson ** 34:48 but you know, just you really can't cover up. Whatever is going on. If you don't deal with it, then it's only going to hurt you and I'm glad that at least for a while. While she was able to and here it comes again. Talk about it, which is what helped? Yes.   Teri Wellbrock ** 35:06 Oh, for sure. And, and she was grateful for the opportunity that we have, we're allowing her the space to, it really helped us all on our healing journeys, because we gave her the space to talk about it, and to say, not as an excuse of why she was drinking, and why it was so difficult for us as children, but reasoning that we were at least able to take a step back from our pain and say, Oh, now we get it. Now, now we understand, again, not an excuse doesn't excuse the behavior, things that had happened. But we were, we were able to say, oh, okay, in kind of like just a real quick little segue, when I did my forgiveness work with the bank robber that had held the gun in my head, and then later pulled the trigger and murdered Marsha Berger. I remember doing healing work with him, after he had died in prison. And I wrote him a letter of forgiveness. And but what I thought to myself was, he and I were both born these innocent little creatures, these these little babies. And it was just somewhere along his journey, he chose to go down a path that would eventually across mine, but his past was, was filled with choices of drugs and booze and, you know, horrors and murder and the bad things that he chose to do. And mine wasn't. But in looking at him, as like this, this little being this little light that came into the world, I was able to, that's how I was able to do my forgiveness work with him. Again, it didn't excuse his behaviors, but I was able to say, I don't know his trauma history. I don't know what his life was, like, I don't know, the horrors that he had maybe endured? Yes, he, he made very poor choices. But I don't know his story. So it really helped me to be able to let   Michael Hingson ** 37:19 him go. But at the same time, there's only so much that you can do because the bottom line is he did make choices. He did do what he did. And you can't and aren't going to fix everything yourself. People need to learn to do that for themselves. And it's too bad that the bank robber person didn't do that. But But look at you, you know, you came out of it. And I think it's absolutely appropriate to forgive him for what he did. It doesn't condone it. But again, holding grudges doesn't help either.   Teri Wellbrock ** 37:55 No, that's a heavy negativity to carry around the no I, again, I'd rather enjoy life and all the beauty that surrounds us, instead of carrying him and his weight with me.   Michael Hingson ** 38:12 Did you? Well, I'll ask the first part of the question this way. So when did you and your mom or when did you decide that you and your mom could be friends?   Teri Wellbrock ** 38:25 She's so cute. I miss her so much every day. It was after those three months, when she had I had walked away from her. And my phone would ring on occasion. And I wouldn't answer because I was just done. And I knew it was her and it was in the evening. So I knew she had probably been drinking. In one evening, my phone rang. And for whatever reason, again, I call them Angel Angel was something said, go ahead and answer it. And I did. And it was her and she said she remember her nickname for me was Titi Hi, Titi Hey, I dropped something behind my dresser and I can't get it. And I've been trying to try and try and and I said, Mom, do you need me to come help you get it out from there. And she said, that would be wonderful. And I said, all right. I'll be right down, hopped in my car went down, got it out. And then I sat on her couch. And she proceeded to tell me, I've been seeing to therapists we've been talking about everything I went through in my childhood. I not drinking anymore. And she just and I said oh my gosh. For the first time in her life. She's trying. Yeah. And that was the moment that I said, okay, even if she fails, even if she falls flat off on her face off that wagon. She has trying and that was it like right there that told me that she cared enough about herself about us to try.   Michael Hingson ** 40:07 Yeah. And you know that that was a good start, unfortunately, something else came along that diverted her. And it's too bad that, that she allowed that to happen. But again, it's choice. And I think we all I know when I think about my life, and I spent a fair amount of time thinking about my life. And one of the things that I think about a lot is all the choices that got me to where I am, and I and I know what the choices are that I made. That led to me being where I am, and in the circumstances I am in, I know the positive ones or the negative ones, and I, I enjoy my life, I enjoy me, I know that there are things that if I had done them differently, might have left me with more money after my wife passed away. After being married for two years, but you know, it's all about, we really should understand the choices that we make. And it's important to think about that as much as we can, and use that to help ourselves grow.   Teri Wellbrock ** 41:10 Oh, definitely. And, you know, I remember my mom saying that to me, she came down here to Hilton Head after we had moved and stayed for a week in her talking about that exact thing about not being not realizing that even 8485, whatever she was at that time, I think she was 85 when she was here how she was still learning in being able to grow. And I just think that's the coolest thing in the world was this 80 something year old, who was willing to do the hard work, she was willing to do the healing work. And so that's why one of my favorite hashtags long before any of this happened was always hashtag never give up. Because that was my motto in life. Never give up. Like, just keep going get back up again. And here she was in her 80s doing it.   Michael Hingson ** 42:03 And I personally hope I'm always a student in five to sudden suddenly decide I'm not learning anything. I don't need to learn anything else. And I'm the bad the worst part. I won't say I was gonna say the better for it. That won't work. I'm the worst for it.   Teri Wellbrock ** 42:17 Right, right. No, I love learning. Again, if it comes across my radar, especially in Trauma Recovery, I'm like, oh, let's try it. Let's see what this   Michael Hingson ** 42:26 does. You mentioned tapping before what is that? So   Teri Wellbrock ** 42:31 EFT or emotional freedom technique, and that that's been used that comes up a lot in Trauma Recovery conversations. And it's, it's a very what I call non invasive, meaning you don't necessarily have to go back to a traumatic event. So you can say, like, one of the remnants of mine was a fear of open spaces, because during that second bank robbery, I was trapped behind a house with an armed gunman to my right, I didn't know his gun was misfiring and an armed gunman to my left, who was firing his gun at police officers in a parking lot. And so I had to choose between death and death, like which direction do I go on? And so and I was out in the open, so it was, again, a fear of open, like being trapped in open spaces. And I so lost my train of   Michael Hingson ** 43:18 thought, Well, I was asking about tapping, but go ahead. Oh, yeah. Yeah.   Teri Wellbrock ** 43:23 So so we will go thank you for redirecting me. So we would go not necessarily like people can go not necessarily to that trauma that because they may not know what's come why they're having what's bringing up maybe a fear of open spaces. So you could go to oh, I'm sitting on a beach, and I'm having all of this anxiety, my legs are tingling, my I'm having the urge to run, I feel like I need to hide and I'm, you know, my eyes are darting around looking for, like, where's the danger. And so tapping with that is it's a process that you walk through, and again, I've done it. And so I'm not a practitioner, so I'm not going to do this justice, but it's a process of, of talking to yourself about that particular feeling. And then tapping on different parts of you're in, there's a whole there's a whole system to it, it's like you know, in between your eyes next next to your eye, under your under your eye, under your nose, on your chin, your collarbone like there's different like look like a monkey like under your armpit. And so and you walk through this entire process, and again, it's it's a matter of disengaging the the emotional attachment to something the event or, again, whether it's the trauma event itself, or the sitting out on the beach in a wide open space and what's coming up with that, if that makes sense. It does.   Michael Hingson ** 44:59 I'm with you. I understand. It is fascinating. And it's a fascinating all the different techniques that that are developed some work better with some people than others. But we're doing so much to try to get people more engaged in. And I hope that people will do more of it because it helps a lot. Oh,   Teri Wellbrock ** 45:22 I tell you what somatic healing came across my radar recently. And I was terrified to fly by myself. But my mom was so sick and in hospice, and I knew I had to hop on that flight. And I had to go, I had to go be with her. And somatic healing had come across my radar. And that was for me this particular somatic because there's various ones, I was placing my hand on a body part that I was feeling a lot of adrenaline surge and tingling. And I placed my hand and I would just say, I'm here, I recognize what are you trying to tell me, and you were safe. And so I would walk through, but it was recognizing these body parts that were very active, very alert, the energy was just, you know, tingling. And I did it when I got onto that flight. And I could feel my right arm just just for whatever reason, my right arm was just on fire, like, with energy. And I just was very gentle, very gentle with myself and just talked myself through it. And it was with me, and with the sensations, and then they just dissipated. And if they started to arise, again, I just put my hand back on and say, It's okay, I'm here with you need, what do you need? And now I, I mean, I had to go back and forth from my mom quite a bit. And now I'm just like a regular old traveler, hop on that flight and go. So it was awesome. But But again, I love what you say, there's so many different modalities and some work some days and but fill that toolbox. People feel that toolbox.   Michael Hingson ** 47:06 Yeah, that's what it's about. I mentioned and ask you about your mom being your friend. And if you guys got to be friends, tell me more about what you think about friendship in connecting with with other people and soul connections and so on.   Teri Wellbrock ** 47:20 Yeah, that goes back to what we were talking about before of sharing our truths of authenticity, which I think you are certainly an incredibly authentic person, when you come across. There's just the soul connection that happens when you when you just meet that person that's authentic. And I certainly put my truths out there and try to be like, Hey, this is me, this is what you get. And there's incredible power in being brave enough to be vulnerable, to be brave enough to put our truths out there and say, This is what's happened to me, or this is what I believe, or this is who I am. And when that happens in you're brave enough to do that. It's incredible. The gifts that will come to you through connection, and the people that will come across your path. And it'd be I don't know, moved inspired to connect with you. Yeah, it's a gift. Truly, it's a gift for yourself, but it's a gift for others, because it allows them then the opportunity to say, oh my gosh, me too. When I started putting my truths out in Facebook world, when I first started to say, I can't do this anymore, I have to set it free. And I started to put tidbits out about what I experienced in my childhood and my early life, I would get private messages or texts or phone calls from people that would say, I've never told anyone before, but and then they would open up and they would talk and they would share. And so it gives people it gives other people the opportunity to to share their truths,   Michael Hingson ** 49:08 which helps you be able to say, which we've talked about a little bit, I get it or me to hashtag me too. And why that is clearly so important. Because if you can create that kind of a connection. And the issue, of course, is it's got to be genuine. Right? And and I think it's pretty easy for most people to tell if you're really sincere or not, but it's so important to be able to do that. Yes,   Teri Wellbrock ** 49:36 well, that's that authentic piece. So you know, it's just again, I've become such a fan of energy and energy exchange, and there's just the certain people that you meet it's more often than not I meet beautiful souls, but every now and then you just meet the person that I am now I'm just like, nope, nope, that not this is going to be a big hold no for me and just gently walk away because it's not there. It's not real. And maybe that's, you know, a gardening thing that they, they've been through trauma, and they have up these walls, and they're trying to be something that they're not. But I just know enough for me to walk away from it. So, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 50:20 yeah. Well, what if I think you've talked about this some, but you've obviously adopted some strategies and coping skills that really help you. And you also talk about them, which is great. So you're, you're a great storyteller, which is important. But what are your favorite coping strategies and strategies that you use, that you also do share with others about? Hopefully helping them to move forward?   Teri Wellbrock ** 50:47 Yes, well, I would say my biggest is mindfulness. But I've also incorporate that. So it's practice I literally put it on my calendar, when he first started doing it. On my to do list, it was like, whatever it was edit podcasts and write a chapter and what whatever it was, and then it would, I would literally put mindfulness practice on my to do list for the day on my calendar. Because practicing it, then it was it was creating a new habit, it just became such a, such a part of my daily life that I just do it now without even thinking. But with that, it was one of my favorites is 54321 mindfulness, and that is using your senses to be in The Now. So not in the traumas of the past, and not in the worries of the future that are usually triggered by the traumas of the past. But right here in the now like, what can I appreciate the beauty right here right now. And so the five senses are so I'm trying to remember the order of them. But oh, gosh, listen for or look for five things. Now I realize I'm talking to someone that's cannot see with your eyes. But   Michael Hingson ** 52:09 let's remember the dictionary says to see is to perceive there's more to it. It's not the only game in town. It's fair to use. That's right,   Teri Wellbrock ** 52:17 right. All right, good. Because once we get past five, which is the using your eyes, to look for things, it's using your ears to listen. And that one I love. That's my favorite. So it's sitting very quiet in really closing my eyes and trying to find the bird. That's the farthest away and see how far I can stretch my ears to hear something or listen to what's truly going on. Oh, I hear someone is mowing their grass, however many streets away and I hear a dog barking. And then three is touch in just using it to describe it in tremendous detail. Like, oh, I'm touching this leaf and it's got some bumps on it. And it's it's soft on the underside, though. And so it's really just using mindfulness to bring ourselves into this moment. And being able to then use some breath work to calm our bodies and just really just be here in the now. Nature. I use nature baths a lot. And so I incorporate all of that together. And then those are three things right there mindfulness, Nature Bath. And the other one that just flew out of my head. But but those are those are three of my favorites. Nature's of nature is very healing for me. I do have a story to tell you. That's very powerful. And so meditation and mindfulness, I was gone up to the little beach in our neighborhood. And I was very, very, very sick with mycotoxin poisoning. After moving into this house. The house had been filled with toxic mold and been condemned, but they lied on the disclosure and didn't tell us in the House have been rehabbed. So it looked gorgeous. But lurking behind the walls was a lot of mold. And it made me very, very ill and so I was I had lost 58 pounds. I had a rash all over my body and my throat was closing up with foods like it was very bad. So I gone up to sit on the speech and was praying and crying. Prayer is another one that I use in really meditating in meditative prayer and asking God universe angels, Holy Spirit, whoever's listening, whoever's here and around listening. If you could please, please, please give me a sign that I am on the right path with this healing journey, and that I'm going to make it through this. And I, my eyes were closed and I said, if you could just send me some big news neon sign like some dolphin would be great. Some, they'll call them dolphin of hope. And if you could just just send them across my path. And so I said, Alright, Dolphin, I'm ready for you. And I opened my eyes. And when I did what I think was 20 Dolphin fin popped out of the water right in front of me, it was probably for a dolphin that just kept, you know, coming up and going back under again, but, and I stopped crying. Because to me, it was so powerful in being connected in that moment and just allowing this. I had a no miracle this, this answer to come to me in welcoming it. And it did. And I knew in that moment that I was going to be okay. And that. Yeah, somebody was listening.   Michael Hingson ** 55:51 Well, there you go. And you got your sign, which is all you can ask for. What do you mean by mindfulness?   Teri Wellbrock ** 55:59 Mindfulness is, to me, I don't know if it's the definition that the practitioners use. But for me, mindfulness is being mindful. So very purposefully connected with the now meaning this moment. So if I were, like, I could say, oh, I'm looking at this blue light on my camera. And I love the color of the blue. And I would, and I would be very attentive about that particular blue, and then say, oh, my gosh, Max is in my lap. And he keeps trying to lick my hand, and it's tickling my fingers. And so, and it's funny. And so I'm rubbing his little belly, and then like, Oh, I love his little soft belly. So I'm talking to you. But meanwhile, I'm being very attentive to the fact of all of these things that are happening right here in the now. And so for me, that is mindfulness and being very present. Your awareness moment, this very beautiful moment, I'm having a wonderful conversation with another beautiful soul. And, again, holding Maxie on my lap.   Michael Hingson ** 57:14 Well, and I told you about our cat, and I have not heard my cat once yell at me during all this. So she must be fed up for the moment anyway. All right, which is a good thing, which is a good thing. If you could reach as many people in the world as you wanted, who would you want to reach most?   Teri Wellbrock ** 57:34 Oh, gosh, I would say trauma survivors that have gone through. Not that, not that it's a trauma race, I, you know, I want to say if four or more have an ACE score of four or more, which the ACES its adverse childhood experiences. You can you can do a score. So it's like, where your parents divorced? Did you experience physical abuse? Did you experience sexual abuse, so you give yourself a point for each of these different things on the score of zero to 10. But those who do have a four or higher there, they just tend to struggle that much more with so many different things, from addictions to again, physical ailments, and so forth. So that's my, that's my target audience, really, because I've lived it. And I want to tell all of them, no matter what you've been through, no matter what you've been through, you can reach this beautiful place of joy and tranquility, and be happy and love life. And yeah, no matter what you've been through, it's okay. So   Michael Hingson ** 58:54 as a person who has been very involved in psychology, and also podcasting, and so on, do you work with people all over? Or what do you do these days?   Teri Wellbrock ** 59:03 Yes, well, my show, which I know is podcasts, you you probably watch these things, too. It's been downloaded in 125 countries, top 2% globally by listen score out of 3.1 million shows. And I so that's my sole work is to put these beautiful conversations out with healers from all over the world. I recently did a healer to Hilton Head series, with 20 Different healers in this area on island just to show even though it's a global audience that look within your own community, and you'll be amazed at how many options are available for healing and again, from somatic to, I did a salt cave, which was a lot of fun, you know, you sit in a salt game and so that was doing something here We work on my body. And, again, it's fun to learn all of this and all of the different things that are available. I'm continuing to write my book, which is my memoir, but it's teaching memoir. So it's about lessons I learned along the way. And I've been writing that for 10 years, it's been a work in progress. And I think my mom passing was that last little bit I was holding on. So it's about 90%, complete. But she gave me her stamp of approval and said, Terry, it's time. It's time to put it out there. So I'm like, okay, good. I will, I will finish that up for you, Mama. So doing that I put out a monthly hope for healing newsletter. Yeah, so my, my, my mission really, is to just put messages of hope and healing out into the universe and share my story. I, I go on other shows. And we wrote a little children's book called The doodle with the noodle about Sammy our therapy dog. And, yeah, that's what I do.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:01 Do you do any coaching or create courses or anything like that? Yeah, I   Teri Wellbrock ** 1:01:06 have some courses available. They're still they're out there, but still works in progress of working on those I've contemplated doing coaching. So yeah, that's on my radar as well. monetizing the podcast. So there's a lot of, I don't know, I struggle with that one. Because I think, and again, I getting a lot of messages from other podcasters, who say, of course, you're allowed to monetize your podcast. And it's been Yeah, it's a gift. But I don't know, I still, that's another work. I think that's impostor syndrome, that's one of the lingering things that I still still working through with all of the trauma remnants that I had worked through is thinking that my message is worthy.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:56 Let me let me tell you my view, as a speaker, as a keynote speaker, since the World Trade Center, and so on, I find that people who are willing to pay you for what you do, and who are not as interested in nickel and diming, you as really paying you and getting the benefit of what you have to offer are also much more likely to take seriously what you say I've had situations where people say, Oh, we only have like $1,000, we just can't pay more, no matter how famous or how good or how intelligent you are, we're just not ever gonna pay more than that. And they're always the ones that are the hardest to work with, for a variety of reasons, because they don't take it seriously. And even some of the times that I've agreed to donate my time, it can be a challenge. And they end up being more of a challenge than anything else. Because they think that you should be obligated to do this, as opposed to, they really appreciate and are willing to do what's necessary to bring your knowledge and wisdom into whatever it is that they're about. So, so much sense, I think there's a lot of value in charging Well, or coming up with some monetization scheme for the podcast. It doesn't need to be grossly hugely expensive. A person who does a podcast for just primarily about blindness and blind people, a gentleman in New Zealand named Jonathan mosun, has a podcast called Living blindly. And what he created was a subscription. And if you don't subscribe, then you might get a podcast, you can actually get the podcast on a Wednesday, but if you want to get it earlier, then you subscribe by donating 99 cents, or $1 or $5, or whatever you choose. And I think he has a minimum for the year. It's not expensive or anything, but then you get the podcasts the Sunday before everybody else does, which was clever, which is pretty clever. So he might you know, something to think about.   Teri Wellbrock ** 1:04:11 I did. I did. Fractured Atlas is a sponsor. And it's a fiscal sponsorship and you have to apply for it. Well, the healing grace podcast was accepted into it. And so it helps with fundraising and all of that. And so I did a fundraising campaign for the show because they said hey, you know, I pay for this out of pocket. I've been doing it five years. It's not just a fluke that I'm out here doing this. And I was able to raise about $4,000 which was awesome because I bought a new nice nicer microphone and nicer camera, nice a laptop and so I was able to do some things to help Yeah, help make it that much better.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:52 See, there you go. Well, if people want to reach out and find you, how do they do that?   Teri Wellbrock ** 1:04:57 They can connect through my website with says Teri Wellbrock.comand can you spell? Yeah,T E R, I just one R W E L L B R O C K, I always want to do the little rock symbol and I   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:12 like.com.com   Teri Wellbrock ** 1:05:18 Yes, yeah. And then the healing place podcasts you can find on Spotify and Apple and all your favorite audio outlets and YouTube. So very cool.   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:28 Well, I hope people will reach out. I really appreciate your time and all of the valuable and invaluable insights that you've given today. It's been a great story. And I very much really appreciate you being here and value. All that we've had a chance to do and we need to do it again.   Teri Wellbrock ** 1:05:47 Oh, for sure is it's just been such a joy again, I just I love you and your energy. And I appreciate you welcoming me into your space. So thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share my story. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:59 thank you and I hope all of you out there liked what we did today. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening and I would love it and I'm really appreciated. If you would reach out to me and give me your thoughts. Feel free to email me at Michaelhi at accessiBe.com. That's Michael mi c h a e l h i at accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. We're going to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson, of course is mi c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. But we'd love to hear from you. We value it. If you know anyone else who ought to come on unstoppable mindset please let us know or give us an introduction. Teri, same for you. We would really appreciate any people that you can think of we ought to have on and again, I just want to thank you for being with us today. And let's do it again soon.   Teri Wellbrock ** 1:06:53 Absolutely. Thank you Thank you sending big hugs your way   **Michael Hingson ** 1:07:01 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Gosh, this conversation is one of those thought-provoking, note-taking, mind-blown kind of conversations. My friend, Faith Eury Cho, just released her debut book called Experiencing Friendship with God. This book is beautiful and I think you're really going to love getting to know Faith and learn from her. We get to talk about feeling tired in our lives and our walk with Jesus, how to know when the Holy Spirit is growing something within us, and befriending the presence of God. I just adore Faith and I know you're going to love listening to her talk about the Lord and the Holy Spirit (ME TOO)! . . . . Subscribe to Let's Read the Gospels with Annie F. Downs HERE. Go to https://anniefdowns.com/gospels to purchase your November Reading Plan or Let's Read the Gospels Guidebook. . . . . . Head to anniefdowns.com/books for more information and to sign up for the AFD Book of the Month. . . . . . Sign up to receive the AFD Week In Review email and ask questions to future guests! #thatsoundsfunpodcast . . . . . Thank you to our partners! Athletic Greens: Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. Go to athleticgreens.com/soundsfun. Prose: Go to https://prose.com/thatsoundsfun for your FREE in-depth hair consultation and get 50% off your first subscription order today PLUS 15% off and free shipping every subscription order after that! Indeed: Claim your $75 credit now at Indeed.com/SOUNDSFUN. ZocDoc: Go to Zocdoc.com/THATSOUNDSFUN and download the Zocdoc app to sign-up for FREE. Hiya Health: Go to hiyahealth.com/thatsoundsfun to receive 50% off your first order. . . . . . If you'd like to partner with Annie as a sponsor for the That Sounds Fun podcast, fill out our Advertise With Us form! . . . . . NYTimes bestselling Christian author, speaker, and host of the That Sounds Fun Podcast, Annie F. Downs shares with you some of her favorite things: new books, faith conversations, entertainers not to miss, and interviews with friends.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Since the time of the Dust Bowl, landowners have worked with Resource Conservation Districts (RCDs) to conserve water, improve soil, preserve natural habitat, and prevent erosion. However, it can take two to three years to secure funding to begin a sustainable initiative. Devin Best, Executive Director at the Upper Salinas-Las Tablas Resource Conservation District, and Michael Larcher, North American Solution Lead at cBrain have partnered on a new system that drastically decreases that timeframe by matching a grower's land conservation needs with grants in a database. Landowners can participate in the Sustainable Land Initiative by submitting a short form that includes their location, acres, and goals. Technical staff from the RCD will follow up with a sight visit to determine all potential conservation projects including healthy soils, cover cropping, beaver dam analogs, and carbon farm plans. Through a database, the RCD can pull a report on all landowners interested in similar projects and connect them with funding and permitting. By aggregating data, the RCD can fund more growers, advise grant agencies on what conservation programs are most effective, and spend more time helping growers on the ground. Resources: *** Register 12/6/2023 | Prepare for 2024: CA DPR Changes, Bulk Wine Trends & Funding Sustainable Projects*** 181: Can Applying Compost Reduce Water Use? 122: Preserving Agriculture Land to Combat Climate Change 58: Barn Owls cBrain Devin Best Michael Larcher on LinkedIn San Luis Obispo County Beaver Brigade Sustainable Land Initiative Upper Salinas-Las Tables Resource Conservation District Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  And our guest today are Devin Best is executive director of the upper Salinas, las tablas Resource Conservation District. And Mike Larcher, who is a North American solutions and sustainability lead with a company called cBrain. And today we're going to be talking about a very interesting idea called the sustainable land initiative. Thank you both for being here. Thank you.   Devin Best  0:19  Thanks for having us.   Craig Macmillan  0:20  Actually, before we get into that, let's kind of set the stage for those folks that are not aware. Devin, can you tell us what is a resource conservation district?   Devin Best  0:28  Sure. So a resource conservation district is a non regulatory, nonprofit local organization that works with growers and local community to help provide resources and technical assistance for their management of natural resources.   Craig Macmillan  0:41  And there are RCDs throughout the state, correct?   Devin Best  0:44  That's correct. There's about 95 of us or so. And they're organized around watersheds, watershed political boundaries, sometimes county boundaries. So it there's a little bit of a mix of how they're organized, but they were formed out of the dust bowl er, and some of them have combined, so you might get a little bit of those sort of things. Originally, the idea was that a federal government had the Natural Resource Conservation Service. And that was a entity that was focused in on dealing with the Dust Bowl and how to help farmers with their resource issues, but they recognize that the federal government didn't really have the best working relationship with local growers. So they formed what was originally known as soil water conservation districts, and here in California, are called RCDs, resource conservation districts, primarily same sort of mission, but they're more directed towards not just water, but also other things as well. And so California, if you look, you'll see this sort of conglomeration of some our cities have combined like ours is upper Salinas and Los Talas, this was to our cities that combined to form one but our counties actually shared by two our cities, the other one is being Coastal San Luis, our city.   Craig Macmillan  1:43  And Mike, tell us what is cBrain? What does the brain do?   Mike Larcher  1:47  The C brain is a process company, we specialize in redesigning processes, typically for government agencies, to make them as efficient, effective and transparent as possible, so that the government can do the work and arrive at the appropriate decisions very quickly. And so citizens get better services.   Craig Macmillan  2:06  And you two are working together on this thing called the sustainable land initiative. Is that correct?   Devin Best  2:10  That's correct.   Craig Macmillan  2:11  Devin, what is that?   Devin Best  2:16  So that actually started with Michael coming into my office and saying, you know, I'm really interested in this beaver brigade and beaver dams, and how can I help to get more of those? And I said, Well, that's great. But I'm also working on this thing called the carbon farm plan. And I need to get more of them done. But it's really tough. They started talking a little bit more about like, what does it take to actually do a carbon farm plan? Why is it takes so long? Why is it so expensive? Why are people not, you know, sort of gravitating behind these things. And as I started explaining, to Michael and his company, how it works, it was really apparent that we, as RCD staff don't spend that much time actually working on the plant itself. Most of it is there's these stop gaps between when we meet with somebody, and when we actually get something done. either. It's funding permitting something staff turnover, sometimes whatever it may be. And Michael's company actually sort of dealt with this particular instance of how do we make sure that we sort of streamline that whole process from start to finish, and get it down to the bare sort of essential parts, but make sure that there's tracking things along the way. So the sustainable land initiative really just focused more on how can RCDs be better at when I meet with the landowner getting resources to them, and I'm not spending all this time chasing grants and looking for permits. And so the example I've been given people is if I was to go meet with the landowner, and they're asking about, let's say, cover crops in vineyard rows, and they're looking for funding for that, usually, I'd go look into CDFAs, you know, list of programs that they have grants and stuff. That's one landowner, and I'd have to write one grant, and I have to wait three to six months until we got announced if we got awarded or not wait for the contract, then the resources, it's so we're talking almost a year or two. And if there's permitting, you're almost talking three years from the day I meet them. That adds some long amount of time between when we meet and actually get something done. And that's not beneficial to the landowner. It's not really the best use of our time. And so we started looking at like, but that's just for cover crops, I might meet with that landowner and say, you know, actually see you have some riparian corridor stuff that we can be doing to and you know, you have an oak woodland, we actually have a program for that. Well, in that one hour to two hours, we might meet that landowner, we lose a lot of information, a lot of potential projects, because now I'm off chasing after the cover crop grant and say, I don't get it. Well, all those other projects sort of fell by the wayside. Well, what if we were able to take all that information, put it in a streamlined sort of database essentially, and then tie those things in and aggregate them with other landowners, so I might be able to say, hey, in addition to that one landowners interested in cover crops have 10 other people I know that are interested in the same thing. Now I'm applying for a larger grant for 10 people all at one time, rather than one and competing against the other. And if I see a grant for my period restoration, I I can combine those together. So it's taking a lot of that information we get in a short amount of time and put it in a place where we can make it the most useful.   Craig Macmillan  5:08  You are probably more likely to get funding when you can come to a funder and say, Hey, this is going to affect 10 properties is going to 1000 acres as opposed to one person, 100 acres, one person 100 acres, you know, and it's probably also going to increase the efficiency of the actual implementation, I would guess, because you set up your team to do whatever it is, and then you can do a lot of work.   Less administrative oversight. Yes.   Now, Mike, I want to go back the way that Devin made it sound was you were just walking down the street one day and said, Hey, look, there's a sign these guys look cool. I like beavers. And you just wandered in. And I very, very quickly the beaver brigade and whatnot. I'd like you just to touch on what that is. Because that's an interesting thing in and of itself. What brought you to Devin went right to the RCD.   Mike Larcher  5:52  Sure, I wasn't. I wasn't walking down the street. But I was driving. I I grew up here on the Central Coast. And I spent a long time away last couple of decades, actually, the pandemic silver lining was I got to start working remotely. And so I came back home was on my way to the MidState fair, my wife and we looked out the window and I said, I don't remember the river looking green and lush in the middle of summer. I know what's going on what's changed. And that was how I stumbled across the slo beaver brigade. So for those who don't know, this is a nonprofit organization focused on trying to bring back Beaver and educate people about the benefits that they create. And they do so much cool stuff. Both Beaver and the SLO beaver brigade. But they are they're known as what is a keystone creature that can create entire habitats that benefit farmers, as well as the biodiversity in the overall ecosystem by slowing the water down, helping to improve soil moisture, reconnect with the underground aquifers. I think I saw some statistics that round about 90% of species in California depend on these wetland habitats. And so the more that beaver started coming back, the more water that is available for fish habitat for agricultural purposes, etc.   Craig Macmillan  7:16  So you had an interest in this you knew about the importance of the Beaver? And then what brought you then to the RCD, you had an idea.   Mike Larcher  7:23  I started actually with a quick Google search. And I found a call a Cal Poly graduate student who had just done his graduate paperwork on land that was suitable for beaver habitat in and around San Luis Obispo County. And Devin was one of the supervisors overseeing that and providing advice. So we had an introduction I was very excited about about the beaver. And Devin said, Wait, I'm really excited about what you guys do, you can make things so much more efficient and effective. Let's talk about doing that for beaver. But let's do that next. And so our first conversation was, how do we help landowners spend more time in the fields and less time at a desk dealing with government bureaucracy, let's make it really easy for them.   Craig Macmillan  8:08  So the sustainable land initiative, this was the two of you having a conversation and this is your project. This is your idea.   Mike Larcher  8:13  It started with the two of us. But we actually had feedback from the Farm Bureau from landowners throughout the region, city, county officials, everyone coming together and realizing that everyone actually wants the same thing. landowners want to become more sustainable. They want to maintain the legacy of their land. They don't want to spend a ton of time dealing with government bureaucracy to make it happen. How do we make it really easy for landowners to do what they already want to do? And to connect them with the immense amount of funding sources that are out there.   Devin Best  8:44  And I think the one thing I'd add on to that was that when I go to my RCD counterparts, one thing we always talked about was the limitation of our capacity. It's always funding and permitting. And yet we spend all our time doing just that is going after funding and get trying to get permits. And so we're not being a resource to the local community. It's like we want to be we're sort of hindered by those two other processes. So when Michael came to me, it was like, Well, if I can make the ways, that we're getting more funding to us quicker, that's churning the way that we're moving that technical assistance more towards helping the farmers we're talking about, hey, I'm not waiting for this grant. But this is a cover crop, I think it's really good for you. What I think's really fascinating is because because as Michael said, we started got a lot of feedback from other people was that this turned in from just the two of us to really be brought in much broader we have Cal Poly involved. We have three other RCDs involved as well. We have a lot of other incident entities and organizations, NGOs, municipalities. And so we've quit calling it like so much of a program, but it's more of a platform.   When did this begin?   I think we launched in 2022.   Oh, wow. You've done a lot of work in a short period of time.   Yen-Wen Kuo  9:33  Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  9:33  This is October of 23. For listeners, as you've done this, you've talked to growers, you've talked to all these folks, what are the top priorities in terms of implementation, project practices that people have said, Hey, these are the things that we want to do, what are the things that seemed to be the most I don't want us popular, but were the most interest is   Devin Best  10:10  BDAs Beaver Dam Analogs. That's one of the big ones, which is not a standard practice with vendor NRCS or CDFA. Is this the climate smart agricultural practices, it's something that's still kind of out there and still new enough. And that's one of the reasons why this is working really well is we can go forward and have sustainable land initiative and be sort of that platform for us to go outside of that. Those are the list of practices, developed the tactic, goal practices, the actual techniques, the implementation, the funding, the monitoring, the ecological benefits, all that information that goes into feeding into those to make them a standard practice, we can do that, and still provide that information under SLI. So that when it does become a practice.   Craig Macmillan  10:51  I want to come to back to Mike. But one thing that I want to clarify, because I don't feel like people understand this, the National Resource Conservation Service has a list of conservation practices, they are numbers, much like the code that you'd get diagnosis code and hospital, everything is tracked by that. And if it's on the list, then you maybe find a place where you can fund it. And if it's not on the list, well, then you're not far as the federal level goes, which can make it kind of tricky beaver brigade. That was kind of what got you into this. I'm guessing it must be very gratifying that a lot of folks are now interested in the same thing. Two questions for you on this. First of all, what is a beaver dam analog? We know about the benefits, but how does it fit into this, this this process? You know, do we need permitting? How do we go about it? What are the costs? Like how do you find people that have land that want to do this? I mean, you had the graduate student that sounds like they did the mapping? How is this? how's this working?   Mike Larcher  11:53  Yeah. So a couple questions there. To start with, like what is a BDA? Do you remember when you were like four years old, and you wanted to put some rocks and sticks in a little creek or something and slow the water down and hold it up?   Craig Macmillan  12:06  Too old? I don't remember when. But 14, how about that? But yes, yes, I do. Remember? Yes.   Mike Larcher  12:12  I have a three and a five year old and they still love to do it at its core. That is what a BDA is, we're basically pretending to be little kids or beavers again, and you're slowing the water down the same thing that the beaver would have been doing if it was still in that area. And what that does is it holds the water in the watershed longer. And so it can actually recharge and go into the ground, it's incredibly low impact shouldn't have any negative environmental consequences. However, when you're talking about doing anything in a riparian corridor, or in California, it's going to involve eight permits, Sequa, from six different agencies at three levels of government   Craig Macmillan  12:58  SEQA, the California Environmental Quality Act, by the way, thanks.   Mike Larcher  13:01  So when you think of it that way to do something that a three year old would do, or a beaver would do on his own, is going to take $10,000 in permitting and three years. So that's one of the values of the sustainable land initiative is that we're trying to take an approach where we can aggregate this across property owners. And instead of permitting each individual one, we can actually go after this as a region or as a watershed. Devin, you want to add something to that?   Devin Best  13:27  I do. And then the point being is that as a practitioner, somebody that's actually having to go after and get these permits, they typically will permit one feature at a time. So if you're looking at Beaver Dam Analog, you can only do one feature one permit. And that takes three years, well, we're talking about doing hundreds to 1000s of BDAs. And so as an organization, we wouldn't be able to keep up with that level of detail and information and processing of data, to be able to relate that to the regulatory agencies and make sure that we're tracking all these things without something like the sustainable land initiative, which is what we have.   Craig Macmillan  14:02  And I think that's where you come in. So this is process and process tracking and process design. I'm guessing that's where your expertise would come into this, Mike.   Mike Larcher  14:12  Yes, that's right. So the way the sustainable land initiative works is that any landowner who is looking to adopt more sustainable practices or to find additional funding and would like the RCDs help, they would submit an intake form that takes no more than five minutes. They can do this from their mobile phone. I've we've even had people submit this while driving, which we do not recommend.   Craig Macmillan  14:34  Do not recommend.   Speaker 3  14:35  Don't recommend that no. If it's, if it's a long light, all you have to do is say here's where I live, how much acreage we have, what our vision and goals are for our property. And then RCD staff come out and say this is your vision. We will try and help connect you with funding and permitting to make that happen so that you don't have to spend time going after grants or going after an Dealing with permits yourself will do the heavy lifting. What my company does is we designed a process so that it's really easy and efficient for RCD staff to do this. It's that five minute intake form. And then typically about a one to two hour meeting with the landowner where they'll walk your property, understand your needs, identify appropriate NRCS practices that have been approved and tried and trued. And a couple of things like BDAs, that aren't yet a standard practice, but that might have an appeal to that landowner. And if the landowner wants to do them, the RCD keeps that information. And when a funding opportunity avails itself, the RCD can go after that with a number of properties at the same time, so drastically increasing the RCDs capacity to help landowners here in the region.   Craig Macmillan  15:45  One of the things that I think is interesting here is this is this is a new model. I haven't heard of anything quite like this before, at least in Agriculture and Land Management, you guys are doing stuff already. I mean, you're making things happen. How has the world of funders reacted to this because this is not their norm? This isn't what they're used to.   Devin Best  16:04  Yeah, actually, so one of the best case studies was, actually there's the SB 13, Senate Bill 1383, which is about reducing the amount of green waste that goes to landfills. And it was a you know, it's a mandate, and everybody was scrambling to try and figure out how to make this happen. Our local county slo county Waste Department reached out and said, Hey, RCD, you guys work with landowners? How can you maybe help us as well, you know, and actually, this works out really well, with our sustainable land initiative, I can actually, one identify a number of people that we've already talked to that are interested in compost, I can give you the acreage is I can already have a way to track how that that resource would be dispersed and monitored and reported in a very efficient way. So what would have normally taken us a year or even two years to get a scope of work and figure out all the details and how many landowners etc. We turn that around in three weeks, but that was only three weeks, but I was doing other things. That's not really like three weeks they spent doing it. But that's how quickly we could get the information to them. Right up the scope of work, get a contract, we are already doing it. We're meeting the goals for SB 1383. Here and still counting for 2022 and 2023.   Craig Macmillan  17:09  What about federal funders, state funders, how's that been going?   Devin Best  17:14  So that is something in the process of developing one of the programs we're really hoping to actually make this more attractive for a lot of people is there's the CDFA Healthy Soils block grants that was originally sent out for solicitation we put in two grants for healthy soils, and also for the state water energy and efficiency program. Our thought was that if we had those funds, we would actually be able to give as much as $5 million of funds directly to the landowners. The main thing that was a problem, and I will just say this, honestly, a lot of our cities were hesitant, because we're not administratively designed to have that much capacity for that much money really. And meaning that many that much demand. It was only because we had sustainable initiative, I was like, Well, this is perfect, because not only can we receive those funds, and get those to directly to landowners, but we can actually report it very quickly back to CDFA. And track all that information where it's not on a spreadsheet or someone's notebook somewhere or something like that. It's in a centralized database for us to use. That was one of the things I was really looking forward to getting those funds to sort of see the true power of the platform itself.   Craig Macmillan  18:21  That's fantastic. And that leads them to the next part of the process. So we've we've we've brought people into the system, we then have put together an application for funding, we now have a way of making that efficient, and getting to the funders hopefully funding that then comes in which it sounds like it has now there's a lot of reporting, having worked on grants the past, there's a lot of reporting that's involved, and it takes every form from where how many pencils Did you buy to how many acre feet of water did you move? I mean, just everything. So Mike, this sounds like where the data management is really, really powerful.   Mike Larcher  18:58  So often, when you think about writing a report, if you're starting with a blank piece of paper, that's going to take you a very long time.   Craig Macmillan  19:06  Oh, yeah.   Mike Larcher  19:08  But in reality, you probably know a lot of the information already. And that's what we've done by using standard process is that all of that information that was captured during the original site visit and from the landowners intake form, including what their vision, their goal is, how many acres are on an orchard, how much or natural and all of that valuable data is available at a click of a button. So as you go through the process, you've actually had all these conversations, you've had all that you've discussed that and you've probably even written those notes down. Because all of those components are now digitized. All you have to do is click one button or at least RCD staff just has to click one button within the slides system and it will generate a word report pulling all of that information in and having it look and feel like the report that's necessary for the grant. It really makes it It's easier for monitoring and for tracking, Devon.   Devin Best  20:03  So going back to our original discussion about carbon farm plants, this is where we're really seeing the benefit, where before it would take my staff, many, many months to write a carbon farm plan one, and then to this the funding to be able to get those in place and everything else. Well, so now that we're, actually, I am going to use the word I do not know if its actually true, templatetorizing our businesses, it is now so we're actually taking what we do in our site visits. And we call these resource conservation profiles that collects all this information, we put it into a document for the landowners to have just as a living document. But because Michael's been involved in helping us kind of move these things forward, we're taking all that information and fitting it into carbon farm plans. So now what was taking me a year to write a carbon farm plan, I'm now getting my staff basically a day. And they're getting close to actually writing a full carbon farm plan in a day because we have all that information gathered. And it's just fitting the site visits and the resource conservation profiles, to these templates into these requirements for carbon farm plans. So that's in place, we're also doing the same thing with forest management plans, and conservation plans. So we have a way to make it so that my staff isn't spending all their time writing documents, they're just getting information, putting it in a format that's useful for everybody, whether it's the funding agencies, regulatory agencies, the landowner themselves, but then really transitioning in our conversations away from planning, and assessing, and actually implementing and doing and monitoring what's actually working on the ground. Yeah, go ahead, Mike.   Mike Larcher  21:28  The nice things about working with the rscds is they have this immense expertise and knowledge, they can write a carbon farm plan, I can't do that, all I can do is build the process to make them more efficient and effective. And so we'd still take all of that expertise from people who are highly trained. And we simply turn it into actionable results as quickly as we possibly can. You still have to know how to write a carbon farm plan, you have to be trained and have the understanding, and the scientific and agricultural backing to do it well. But now let's just make all of that information actionable, so that it can go into a plan, yes. But a plan just sits on a shelf? How do we unlock all of that data so that it can easily flow into a grant. So it can easily be tracked over the course of the next five years to say, here's what its real impact was. And that's the power of digitization.   Craig Macmillan  22:21  And that then brings us to, we've gone through the process. Now everybody's concerned about the final outcome. What about monitoring? What about evaluating? Did this work this work better here than better there? Can we improve is that part of this whole process is the post implementation part.   Devin Best  22:38  It is 100%. So that's one of the things when early on, we're designing this processes that we amend to make sure that we're one transitioning RCD staff role from being an administrator. Secondly, being more informative and providing that feedback loop. The other thing too, is if we're doing more of these sorts of things, we can be more informed to CDFA and NRCS, about what practices people like one, what are useful, and Intuit is again, sort of the biggest bang for the buck. At this point, if you look at all this healthy soils practices, I couldn't quite tell you which one is the best one for them to continue pushing forward and Central Coast versus maybe in the northern part of California. But if we do enough of these, we have the monitoring, and I'm shifting my staff time away from administration to on the ground monitoring and reporting and actually talking to people and having that conversation. And I think the main thing I can almost point to is, if you look at what we're doing, we're really sort of putting ourselves back into what they were originally designed to do. You know, back in the Dust Bowl era, not these administrative, let's go chase grants, but really being a resource, a local resource for growers and sort of taking their input and providing it to a higher context, whether it's the state agencies and saying, This is what you should be supporting. This is why we're gonna move this direction, maybe it's BDAs. Maybe it's biochar, maybe it's how these forest management plans fit into a larger context of our secret document, whatever it may be. But we can't have those conversations. When I'm going, Gosh, I really got to get this grant written. And I'm holding my fingers and crossing, hoping that we get something that comes up. So   Craig Macmillan  24:08  The same question, Mike, where now that we've gone through the process, where are we headed? From your perspective? Where are we going to go?   Mike Larcher  24:14  I want to see this really start to expand. It starts with the individual landowner. No one knows what's appropriate for their land as well as the landowner. As as much as a farmer or rancher who has been working that land. They know what they need, what they want. The sustainable land initiative exists just to help them achieve that as quickly and as effectively as possible. I want to see this start to scale. And when we start talking, we can talk about one individual landowner and helping them that's amazing. But when an entire region starts to do it, or when an entire state starts to do it, you start to see some really incredibly impactful outcomes. So we've actually deployed a solution that's quite similar. This is actually bottoms up working with individual landowners, we've done a solution very similarly in Europe from the top down. So within the the nation of Denmark, it allows landowners to select what fields they're willing to follow. And this is very specific to Denmark because it's such a low lying land mass, that's only a couple 100 feet above sea level. Well, they have a lot of agricultural land that is that has been completely drained from wetlands, and is very low yielding. It's only existing because it's already government subsidized. Well, what if we subsidize them to return it to wetlands instead? It is, landowners have been so excited about this initiative that they've had to continue to increase the funding year over year. And this one process on its own, is actually on track to reduce greenhouse gas for Denmark as an entire nation by 20%.   Craig Macmillan  25:52  Wow.   Mike Larcher  25:53  I mean, that's huge. And California is 10 times larger than Denmark.   Craig Macmillan  25:59  And also has its own goals. Yeah, there's a lot of potential here.   Mike Larcher  26:04  So my goal is to help landowners achieve their individual vision. But to do it at such a scale that we're really actually impacting the entire environmental the state.   Craig Macmillan  26:14  On this topic, is there one thing you would tell growers and landowners   Mike Larcher  26:17  take five minutes, open your phone or your browser   Craig Macmillan  26:21  Not while you're driving!   Mike Larcher  26:22  Look for stainable land initiative, not while driving, don't do it while driving.   Craig Macmillan  26:25  If we if we if you search a sustainable land initiative, we'll find you. And we will also put a link.   Mike Larcher  26:30  search sustainable land initiative, let your local RCD know what it is that you want to do with your land. And they'll try and help you fulfill your vision.   Craig Macmillan  26:39  Perfect.   Mike Larcher  26:40  They'll they'll try and make it so you don't have to deal with bureaucracy. And you can spend more time working your land. They'll figure out the permitting in the grants.   Craig Macmillan  26:49  Mike, where can people find out more about you?   Mike Larcher  26:51  You can google us at cBrain, the letter C and then brain like what's in your head. It stems from corporate brain. We designed a software to help enable all this in conjunction with the Danish government about 15 years ago. And we are now the back end of 18 of 21 Danish ministries part of why they're considered the most digitized government in the world.   Craig Macmillan  27:11  That's really interesting. Mike, thanks for being a guest.   Mike Larcher  27:15  It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  27:17  Our guests today have been Devin Best executive director of opera Salinas Las tablets resource conservation district located in San Luis Obispo County, California and Mike Larcher is a North American solution sustainability lead for cBrain and we talked about amazing, really fascinating model process that they've been implementing called the Sustainalbe Land Initiative.   Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

CesarRespino.com brings to you to You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show a special guest by the name of Mark Blocker.Mark is Founder and CEO of Big Block Athletics, Founder of Mark Blocker Foundation, Founder and CEO of Mark Blocker, Success Coach Enterprises and Angel Investor.Mark's message to you is:You only need desire and a willingness to achieve success in order to obtain it. Everything else will come.To Connect with Mark Blocker go to:Instagram is mark_blocker23bigblockathletics@hotmail.com586-888-3134To Connect with CesarRespino go to:

To the land of the dead! But with mummies and lots of sand! Show Notes: Run Time: 1:40:28 Christopher starts off with another tale of injury, but this was far lower stakes and more medically attended to than last year's cave story, so that's good, at least! Then, our heroes fall! But will they rise again? Gosh, let's hope so!  If you're a Letters Page Patreon supporter, join us this Friday for a live Editor's Note! If not, you'll hear it next Tuesday! Either way: it'll be a fun time!

In today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, CesarRespino.com brings to you a guest all the way from the other side of the world, UK.Nici Burns, at 51 years young, has proven that resilience knows no age. Overcoming the challenges life has thrown her way, she emerged triumphant with a spirit as vibrant as ever. Battling Lupus in her 30's, Nici refused to let it define her, using her own journey as the inspiration to start Nibu Naturals Skincare. In her fifith decade of life, she stands as a testament to the power of determination and dreams.In the midst of a difficult divorce, Nici found herself homeless, seeking refuge in a friend's spare room. Enduring emotional and financial abuse, she refused to surrender to despair. Instead, she channeled her strength into building a skincare empire.Today, as the CEO of Nibu Naturals, Nici has achieved remarkable success, her life story a testament to her resilience. With the energy and enthusiasm of a 30-year-old, she's not only a mother but also a loving grandmother. Nici's journey inspires us all to embrace life's challenges, emerge stronger, and live as if age is but a number.Nici's message to you is: My mission is to empower women (and men), enabling them to not only enhance their self-esteem and appearance but also to embrace their inner strength, seize the opportunities life offers, and fully embrace the present moment. Life really is short!To connect with Nici Burns go to:https://www.instagram.com/nibu_naturals/https://nibunaturals.com/To Connect with CesarRespino go to:

We say it every week, but it's another massive show, starts off a little rough when Nick admits to forgetting to bring the wine. Flog behaviour. But on a positive note, Nick and Mark - probably the entire golf world - are so pleased with Camilo Villegas win at the weekend. With what he's had to deal with on a personal level with his daughter's passing, it's a great result, particularly with him now having the next 2-years locked in with starts.But....Hong Kong. Oh. My. Gosh. What we saw in Hong Kong on the 16th hole at the weekend was insane, and Nick and Mark discuss at length what happened, how it could happen, and call our rules expert Stuart McPhee live on the pod to break it down for us. Mark puts Stuart on the spot to give us a Top 5 most broken golf rules later in the pod, and gives him 25-minutes to get it ready.Finally the first glimpse of the LIV schedule, a small part of it anyway, with Adelaide being announced for April 2024. And there is no clashes with any local events, so good news all round. Speaking of LIV, Mark has a friend who spotted Greg Norman at Melbourne International Airport, so is curious as to whether that was to do with Adelaide, or something bigger. Nick talks us through the LIV trade structure for the off-season.After the turn, Mark Allen has some advice for Jam TV on the weekend coverage, pertaining to the menu for the commentary team. He's a fan of Saturday food, less so of Sunday food. No doubt someone will get onto that. Nick tells a great story about playing the World Matchplay against Dudley Hart where they both halved the 3rd hole at metropolitan with a triple bogey!Voicemail comes in from Peter who has a question for Nick about playing left-handed vs right-handed. Nick and Mark kick it around, and chat about some great golfers who were left-handed, but played right-handed. Mark tells a story about two well-known golfers who started as lefties and changed to being righties.Some great feedback this week. Lots of comments on the 1996 Australian Open card that we discussed on last weeks show. Nick tells a story about being partnered with The Shark in 1998 and how nervous he was, but not as nervous as his caddy ! Then we get the the PING Global Results, and Mark has a surprise for Nick....he has created an opener for the segment. It sets up the results nicely!To the Top 5. Mark has enlisted Stuart McPhee to create a Top 5 of Golf's most broken rules. Stuart gives us a great list, a lot of fun.Inspired by The Shark and Camilo Villegas, Mark Allens' masterclass this week is using your hips to give yourself space through impact.Talk Birdie To Me, new episodes weekly wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe and you'll never miss an episode! We'd love you to share the podcast with them, and if you can rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts that would be great.Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok, or send a voicemail to us here. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Get ready to unravel the intricate world of awards in business! We promise, you'll walk away with a fresh perspective on the role and impact of awards in business - the good, the bad, and the downright stressful. We kick off our lively discussion by peeling back the glitzy curtain to expose the challenges and rewards of organizing an awards ceremony. From the high stakes of selecting winners to the joyous recognition of one's hard work, it's a rollercoaster journey. We open up about our own awards experiences and how it can often feel like a numbers game. Plus, we'll delve into the emotional side too, sharing some insights on how to handle not winning or being nominated, and why it's important to savor any recognition you do receive. 0:00:01 - Announcer It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss, a VEO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Ann Ganguzza.  0:00:20 - Anne Hey everyone, welcome to the VEO Boss Podcast and the Boss Superpower Series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I am here with the lovely Lau Lapides. Hey everyone. Hey Lau.  0:00:31 - Lau Hey, beautiful, beautiful, right back at ya.  0:00:34 - Anne How are you today?  0:00:36 - Lau Oh, I'm fabulous. I feel like this is going to be a very rewarding show, or maybe a rewarding show oh oh hey. See what I did.  0:00:45 - Anne I see what you did there. It's funny Lau. We just attended an award ceremony and there's a lot of different opinions out there on do we like awards, do we not like awards? Maybe we should have a talk about that Lau. What do you think I?  0:00:58 - Lau love it. I haven't heard anyone really talk about discussing awards like the process, not just the winning of the award, but also like what goes into the entire process. It's really a huge thing. Sometimes takes six months or a year to prep that kind of thing. Yeah.  0:01:16 - Anne Well, I will tell you that. First of all, I guess bosses out there we want to hear how you feel about awards too. I mean, there's so much discussion happening out there, oh gosh, on the Facebook groups and in social media about awards, and are they worth it? Because some awards cost money to enter, some awards don't. In our industry right now, I know of two distinct award shows that go on. However, they are not the only awards that you can certainly enter if you feel the desire to do that.  Lau. I have been a supporter of award shows since the beginning. However, there are many pros and there are many cons to it. Pros is that if you win an award, it's validation. Sometimes it's so difficult to be validated while we sit here in our studios all by ourselves and we don't get a lot of feedback all the time. Gosh, I'm always telling my corporate students we just want to be loved. When you work for a company and you feel underappreciated, I mean, gosh, that's really all we long for is to be loved. I think awards can be a verification of that. But then again, sometimes they may not be, because maybe you didn't win, and then that enters in a whole new mental aspect of. Oh my gosh, I wasn't good enough to win this award. Why did I not win this award? Somebody else is better than me. What are your thoughts about that Lau?  0:02:42 - Lau I think that when you go into this kind of a process, if you're entering into it and really submitting yourself for it intentionally, you have to set your mindset and your psychology to the fact that it is competitive. It is a competition. You may or may not feel like it is, but it really is. It should be based on merit. It should be based on your progress, your process and your product. And sometimes we only have so much control over that right. We manage it. We only have so much control right, that's the big thing.  0:03:16 - Anne And I just said it should be based on merit, and, right there, we could probably spend an entire podcast talking about that. It should be based on merit. However, there is the other side of the coin where, yes, it should be based on merit, but then you have the people who judge the awards right, and we don't always know, first of all, who those people are. Sometimes we do. I'm not a big fan of knowing who judges are. I feel like maybe there's too much possibility for people to maybe try to talk to the judges and influence them, so I'd rather not have judges be known. And then you have to really think about what are the judges qualifications? Because within voice over, we have so many different categories right, and so many different categories of awards.  If you're going to, I would say, present these categories of awards, I think you want to have very vetted judges right Judging the entries. And I am not sure, since we don't know who the judges are all the time, or even if we do know who the judges are, what is the criteria for me, a demo award versus a performance award, and in all different genres, I think it's super important that the people judging those are very specialized in those genres or in that category. So if you're judging animation, I would hope that judges are all experienced either working in animation or doing animation day in, day out and they really know the industry, and so I really would hope that that's the case. I don't know Lau if that's the case with all the judges, because, again, we don't always know who the judges are and we don't know what their credentials are.  0:04:50 - Lau Right, and I can say just from my personal point of view that it's not always the case.  Because at times I've been asked to judge categories which I feel like I can judge them. I can judge them, but am I way off base? No, I don't think so. I think there's a general industry knowledge that you have for years in the industry, but is it my absolute forte? No, not always it's not my forte. We try to get that matching process, but sometimes it's a numbers game, just like the competitors. It's like do we have enough judges? Do we have enough judges in a particular category? Are we getting them in time? Can they get the work done?  0:05:24 - Anne That's right in time, and that's the other thing. I mean, my goodness, judging some of these awards, because I have been a judge myself. First of all, when there's a lot of categories and a lot of entries, who, it becomes like a casting process and right then, and there bosses. I want that to tell you one thing. That means that sometimes right and I'm not going to speak for myself, but sometimes if you've asked a busy person to be a judge and then they have to listen to a thousand entries, they're probably only going to get the first part of your entry listened to before they have to continue on.  So that is something to consider. I mean, if there's a nuance or an acting moment that is at the end of your performance, maybe you want to try to create that clip so that all that great stuff is right at the beginning, because it is a job. It can be a lengthy and timely job, and if judges are not given an appropriate amount of time to do that, or they don't have a lot of time to do that, and they think like, yeah, I can judge that, and then all of a sudden it becomes overwhelming, well, then you get, the judging process becomes a little skewed to be quite honest because either I don't have time or I've heard too many entries.  I'm now overwhelmed. But yeah, there's so many things that go into it, my goodness. And then are the entries anonymous. We hope they are right, because we don't want the judges to be influenced by names or celebrity or that type of thing. But our voice is our product, right? So sometimes I'll tell you what it's hard to hide, because I know a lot of voices out there and I can pick them out like this I would agree.  0:07:01 - Lau And you know this last time, one of the last ones, you and I judged we were under an NDA, which I actually really appreciated I did too Right. It took a lot of stress, because not that I would be necessarily blabbing about that, I wouldn't but it reminded my brain like, separate it, compartmentalize it, because you and I we were a lot of hats, you know casting an agent and coach, and this and that, and so there is sometimes that one or two talent that we know. We do know them, and then could we recuse ourselves?  Sometimes we can sometimes we can't, because they can't move us into another category. So it's great to have that compartmentalization and that relaxation to know, okay, if there is someone in front of me that I know that's a client or a client of a friend of mine, that I am separating that from this hat, that I'm wearing, and then I'm not going to talk about that. I'm not going to speak about that and I have.  I wonder what you think about this. And I had mixed feelings. I have mixed feelings about the awards being given and then the judge's names coming out. It sort of makes me feel like a jury that all of a sudden is being. You hear the names of the jury who's on a criminal case. It makes me feel uncomfortable. It's like why do I need to know that information? What do you think about that?  0:08:21 - Anne That's very interesting and I appreciate that you brought that up because, as I mentioned, I always have been a fan of keeping anonymous I mean for the longest time and this isn't anything that's being judged. For example, I have done the VO Peeps scholarships for gosh 12 years already and when we judge those entries I don't disclose the names of the judges and I don't even disclose the names of the judges after the fact. Because again, what if I want to use those judges, maybe again, and I don't want to have anybody influenced and I don't want the judges, I feel like I don't need credit If I'm a judge. I don't need credit in being a judge. I just want to be able to judge fairly. And I happen to agree with you.  I don't think that judges' names should ever be disclosed really, and I'm not quite sure why the reason is and it might just be that they want to be thanked properly, but it's like when I give a donation, I don't always have to put my name on that. You know it can be an anonymous donation because I did it out of the goodness of my heart. If I'm judging something, I want it to just be the most fair that it can possibly be.  0:09:24 - Lau I'm glad you brought that up, Because when I see that at a ceremony someone who's kind enough to give money towards a scholarship or towards an award. I kind of feel bad for them Because I'm like as much as you are. Oh aren't they wonderful. They don't always want that recognition. They don't always feel comfortable knowing that. It's well-known knowledge that anyone who wins a lottery like they have to be very careful about releasing their name, because then they become a target and people go after them.  So you have to wonder if you're in an award ceremony, could you then become some sort of target that people are either trying to embellish themselves?  0:10:01 - Anne to you or they're trying to knock you down, similar to being an agent Lau. I'm just saying I know nothing about that.  0:10:09 - Lau It's so true.  0:10:10 - Anne It's like they're prostrate themselves to you day and night right.  0:10:13 - Lau I'm not one to really appreciate that. Honestly, I'm very private in that way. Like, if I'm going to give a bunch of money, I'd rather it not have my name in there. But that's just me. Other people do want that recognition. That's fine. That's totally fine.  0:10:28 - Anne I'm going to say I'm not here to shame anybody saying if you put your name on a donation that it's shameful.  I just think there are times when I don't think it's necessary and sometimes, yeah, I mean I'll put my name on a donation if I can add a note to it, to the recipient in wishing them good will, that kind of a thing, and that will be a reason for that.  But I think La one thing I want to really make a point of about awards is when you enter awards. Having experienced both sides of it being a judge and then also entering into awards myself I think you just have to really be made of Teflon number one, because the process is very subjective, right, and we're starting to kind of address all the things that go into the awards submitting and then the judging process and if you know who the judges are, are they qualified and that process. But I think one thing I want to stress to the bosses out there is please do not ever belittle yourself If you do not win an award or if you don't get nominated for an award. I think that, especially in our business, because it's very much a personal part of us, it's our voice, right, it is so personal and if you ever don't feel as though we've succeeded, it can be really, really damaging to our psyche.  0:11:44 - Lau I would agree, I would agree. Do not give a ton of weight to that process. And it's very funny, it's almost like auditioning.  It's like don't give a ton of weight to anyone audition brush it off and leave and go on to the next thing. But yet, when you're actually auditioning, give it the 100% it deserves, completely, commit to it completely, invest in it, completely, appreciate it. So, if you're awarded something or nominated, completely be present, be appreciative, love the moments, enjoy your community, love the attention. But then when you walk away, I really do believe you have the award. You're not going to forget about the award, you're going to utilize it as well in your marketing.  0:12:23 - Anne Oh, absolutely, but don't hang your hat on it. That's another positive.  0:12:27 - Lau Absolutely, don't hang your hat on it Like I'm the best, I'm the expert, I'm finished. No, it's a recognition that your work is at an industry standard that people want to appreciate, but there's a lot more to go.  0:12:40 - Anne Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that it's wonderful to get an award and it's wonderful to get nominated. I mean, if I want to make a distinction between being nominated and winning an award, I feel that the nomination is an award in and of itself because, listen to this award nominated, award winning, I mean honestly, they still start with award and so if you're going to use that to market, I mean gosh, just to be like sometimes narrowed down and be put on the shortlist, you can be proud of that to be nominated, and I really, really do believe that that can be celebrated as a win. And again, even if you're not nominated, understand that your work has value, you have worth, you have value and just because you didn't get the nomination or get a win doesn't mean that you are any less of a professional or accomplished and successful individual. I agree totally agree.  0:13:30 - Lau I'd love to talk, too, about the length of awards ceremonies. I think that that is either thought about or it's not thought about, maybe it's thought about, maybe it's not thought about, but they could run three, four hours in length, sometimes Absolutely, and I wonder how the audience feels about going through that kind of process and sitting through that process. We did an awards not long ago, you and I, where we literally sat in a chair for three hours.  There was no break. There was no moment to take a breath, walk around, nothing, and I thought that that was a very strange choice on the part of the organizers to keep people in a seat for that length of time and expect that focus to really stay there and be there late at night. What do you think about that?  0:14:20 - Anne I'm just thinking about all the awards ceremonies that we've become accustomed to on television. If you watch the Emmys or the Golden Globes, and there's always either food or drink at the table. Number one that helps If you're going to have to be planted or seated in an audience. I think that that works. And what if you have to leave to use the restroom right?  And then they announce your award. Hopefully you want to have like a series of events and when are they going to announce this category? I happen to know a very good friend of mine who was caught in the bathroom when they won and, yeah, it was not able to come to the stage and give their acceptance speech. But I think that sometimes sitting through the awards ceremony can be laborious if there's not any kind of entertainment kind of interspersed in there and or some sort of a schedule of events. And I know that that's difficult and sometimes they want to keep it a surprise for the people, they want to keep people in their seats. But yeah, it can get tiring. I will say that my tushy got a little bit sore and I've been to longer ones Okay, I have been to longer ones than the one that you and I were at, which we're really excruciating just because of the length and not all categories were called up to the stage.  0:15:30 - Lau So no, no, they need to sell cushions like they do it at the stadiums.  0:15:34 - Lau Buy a cushion.  0:15:36 - Lau you have to sit on the cushion and that would make a lot of sense, though I did think of a shortcut because I'm an organizer myself events, and one of the shortcuts I don't think anyone would ever do, but I think makes total sense. There were a handful of people at a few of the ceremonies that you and I intended that one more than one award One in particular. I can remember he won three. Okay, lovely, good for him. Why did they spread that out and why did he need to come up three times, have three spills in which he ran out of things to say? He was telling jokes by the end of it. Why not house those categories One, two, three. They have a sense. Maybe he's gonna win, maybe.  0:16:16 - Lau I don't know I mean they're preparing?  0:16:18 - Anne No, I don't know who's preparing the envelopes, remember they?  0:16:20 - Lau well, yeah, they're preparing the envelopes.  0:16:22 - Anne It's under lock and key right. So nobody knows. So that's theoretically. Somebody knows.  0:16:27 - Lau That's theoretically. Somebody knows Theoretically?  0:16:28 - Anne somebody knows. But again, but then I don't think Lau you'd want the audience to expect right that the next category he would be the winner as well. So there'd be no right. No, but if you think about it that way, right, if they know he won in multiple categories and then they called the second category once they did a series of right, the audience would expect it so. I don't think you can do it that way, and I think he handled it well.  0:16:50 - Lau Personally, listen, I think theoretically, it's true, but you and I know most of the audience was dying to get out and get a hamburger. You know what I mean. Like if I could get some french fries and cut this a little bit shorter, I'm all over the nuggets. You know what I mean. Like I'm ready to go. I don't need it to be that extra hour.  0:17:07 - Anne Well, I think that it could be maybe addressed at the amount of categories, maybe. Maybe, but then they wanna make sure that they're covering everybody, so I can see where organizers have a big job here.  0:17:19 - Lau Yeah it's tough, you know, there's a lot.  0:17:20 - Anne You know everybody wants to be represented. As a matter of fact, I am like all for let's have the best medical narration demo. I want that because you know that's something that I do and that's something I would love to submit for, and there's no category anywhere for that, so I can see where they have to.  0:17:37 - Lau Of course it's entertainment as well, so they have to pad the whole evening with different kinds of entertainment and videos and jokes, and that pads it with another hour or another hour and a half. So I get that, but I totally get that.  0:17:52 - Anne I'm gonna say what do you say Lau about? Like cause, I'm okay with the words. I'm okay with the words because over the years I've learned a little bit more about how they work. And I've won, I've lost, I've not been nominated. I've been nominated. I've been through it all myself, the emotional swing that it can cause, right. And I'm still okay with the words because I can understand them for what they are.  And so, bosses, I hope that this helps you to just kind of get a better grip on what they are and not that it determine your value at all. If you choose not to enter or not support award service, that's entirely fine. You can still be a boss, absolutely. But I don't think that this kind of back and forth war that we have about awards, I think it gets a little bit divided and for not really a good reason. I don't think. If you want to enter, go ahead and enter and don't shame people who enter awards. I really am a big fan of that. I mean I don't love negative talk on social media for people who enter awards or get awards or that kind of a thing.  0:18:54 - Lau I am so with you on that. And that would extend too to people who do not come to the awards, who for many reasons, can't, won't or don't want to come to the awards. I think that's fine. I mean, if I'm being nominated, I'll go because I'm very honored and I'll buy the dress and I'll do the thing and I'll enjoy it. But there are others that say no, it's not my scene or I can't afford it.  0:19:18 - Anne Yeah, oh yeah, I don't want to because I'm in Florida. It can get expensive. I mean, you're talking about, typically, people like to dress for these things. So you're talking airfare, maybe, travel expenses, hotel expenses, dress expenses or suit? Yeah, absolutely, and for me, I had makeup and hair, but I always liked to have an excuse to have it make up and hair.  0:19:40 - Lau But You're so schmelzy that way. Well for me.  0:19:44 - Anne I'm telling you, for me it's a little spa day.  I mean, if somebody can just handle that for me I can think about like what I have to do I always talk about when I present. I like to have hair and makeup because then I don't have to worry about those things, that I can concentrate on my presentation. So while I'm somebody who's doing my hair, I am like doing notes for presentations. For me it's just an investment, but it can be very expensive. Awards can be very expensive and sometimes you have to buy the award after the fact and that is also expensive. So there's a lot of, I think, pros to it but yet a lot of cons, and I don't want you bosses out there to feel any less than worthy or valuable just because you do or don't enter an award show.  0:20:26 - Lau I'm with you on that Ann and. I would say no matter how you take part, I would urge people to take part in some way, whether you're a witness or you're submitting or you're just congratulating someone who won and just support the community in any way that's best and comfortable for you because it is ultimately, I would imagine, there for the people and for the community and for the recognition and we don't want to completely lose that. We want to preserve that, you know. However, you take part.  0:20:57 - Anne And also I wanna just say, unless you're organizing an award event, I think if you could maybe steer clear of criticism. I just I mean, I just I think that if people criticize people who hold events and they say, well, it's all about the money, or they try to figure out, oh, how many people times how much the cost of a ticket, wow, they're making a lot of money. And then they make assumptions on the fact that, oh, they're just doing that because they're greedy or whatever reason you have. I think, honestly, just having a husband who does events and myself I've done events live- YouTube events like.  I think, anybody that can sit back behind a keyboard and criticize about an event if they've not organized one themselves, especially one that's in a hotel, where you have to pay probably a big chunk of fees to a hotel for food, for the space. Just to do that is not a cheap thing at all. And so what event organizers charge for their event? I mean, I just steer clear of any kind of criticism because I know how expensive it can be very expensive, Very, especially in this day and age.  0:22:05 - Lau it's the most expensive it's ever been.  0:22:07 - Anne Oh yeah, absolutely so have a little mercy and understanding on event organizations.  0:22:11 - Lau And then the other thing too and I wanted to say not just about awards, but we're talking about awards right now is like don't look the gift horse in the mouth in regards to, like, the people who organize a range direct all of that deserve the profit they make oftentimes.  0:22:29 - Anne Oh, absolutely, because they are going through such stress.  0:22:33 - Lau It's beyond a full-time job. No one realizes that unless they're involved with that kind of work.  0:22:38 - Anne Well, my husband does it as a full-time job, I mean, and it's crazy because even people that he works with don't understand what it takes to prepare for an event.  0:22:46 - Lau It is crazy, but I love that you said please have compassion, I'm backing you up on that.  0:22:51 - Anne I'm backing you up on that, because it's not easy to do something like that.  But yet it seems so easy for us to sit behind our keyboards and just make assumptions. And I think yeah, and so don't make assumptions about, I think, awards, events, the event organizers or even the judges, or even if you agree or don't agree with awards. I really feel like just one of my favorite sayings is to mind your own business, and I don't mean that in a mom way, I mean that my VO business is my business. And if I feel that maybe entering an award competition will maybe help my marketing, I'm going to do it and I don't want to be criticized for that or looked upon badly for that. But again, and I will try not to cry if I don't win, because I think anybody that knows me knows how darn competitive I am- Ooh, I am competitive, you are, I've got a box of tissues for you.  Thank you, so you don't need to worry about that at all. See the Lau.  0:23:41 - Lau that's why I want you at my side at all at all times I'm ready with a tissue, a handkerchief whatever, a shoulder and a turkey sandwich and a turkey sandwich at all costs A turkey sandwich, and that's what support is like.  0:23:55 - Anne I love that, that kind of support. Right, we need to lift each other up, and so, if awards are your thing, support the people in the community, like Lau supports me with a turkey sandwich and a box of tissues. I love that right, it's so true, it's so true. And Lau. And if I can get you a turkey sandwich at any time, I will do so, and that's why I love you back because we're all about getting of the turkey sandwich.  0:24:23 - Lau It's not even Thanksgiving, that's the best part.  0:24:25 - Anne Bosses, you might be wondering what are they talking about? Well, at one of the last conferences, it happened to be late at night and I had been presenting and had gotten out of like multiple panels and X sessions or whatever it was, and by the time I got to the restaurant to eat they had closed. It was like after 10 o'clock and everything had shut down and I was starving. I literally was like I need something and there was no door dash that could be quick, and so Lau to the rescue. Who actually went and secured me a turkey sandwich that magically appeared from behind the desk Late at night.  0:25:05 - Lau Behind the front desk. Yes, I was like the Ooma Thurman in the Kill Bill series. I just jumped over the desk, I tackled the woman behind there and I said how could you not be?  0:25:17 - Anne open and it was fresh and I ravaged that turkey sandwich. I did, I literally did, and it was, the bread was flying, the turkey was in my mouth and I ate it like a caveman. I mean literally, it was beyond Quentin Tarantino stuff. I didn't even have utilities to eat it with. I ate it with my hands, I know I didn't even have a sword.  0:25:35 - Lau I just used the verbal sword play of my mouth and my words.  0:25:39 - Anne But that's the story of the turkey sandwich and Lau how she came to save me. Okay, so everybody needs a Lau, right, Everybody needs a Lau on their side.  0:25:47 - Lau So, Lau.  0:25:48 - Anne I mean, what a great conversation. I mean, I hope bosses, you guys always know your value, whether you are winning awards or not. Winning awards, you guys, you are gifts and awards in our hearts, and so make sure that you feel that way about yourself and, of course, others in the industry, and let's lift each other up. So I love it.  0:26:08 - Lau We love you if you win, and we love you even more if you don't win, because it's all about your process. There you go.  0:26:15 - Anne There you go, and, speaking of awards and making a difference, you guys can use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Just like Lau gives me turkey sandwiches, so you guys visit 100voiceswhocareorg to commit and big shout out to IPDTL, our favorite way to connect Bosses. You, too, can find out more at IPDTLcom. Have an amazing week, guys, and we'll see you next week. Bye.  0:26:47 - Lau Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host and Ganguza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.  0:27:17 - Anne This time a little more conversational. I'll give something I actually give something really, really conversational once and they're like oh yeah, give me a little more conversation and I'll give it completely conversational. They'll be like oh Hmm, how about a little more energy? And you know, when they ask for more energy, that usually means they're looking for a little more cell, yeah, if you're not anywhere near it, oh yeah maybe a little more smile, a little more smile, a little more smile, a little more energy that gives you the cell back.  Transcribed by https://podium.page

Making science easy to understand and relatable has always been a challenge, but in the world of social media and misinformation, it's become even more difficult. Few people know this better than popular astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson. In a break from our usual focus on weather, Tyson joins the podcast this week to discuss the state of science communication in the 21st century. Why does misinformation spread so easily and what can be done to combat it? How can we improve science education? Tyson also shares the words he thinks are most misunderstood, what they really mean, and some alternatives to use instead. Tyson is the Director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History in New York and host of the StarTalk podcast. He's hosted numerous science programs including "Nova ScienceNow" and "Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey," and has made appearances as himself in programs such as "Family Guy" and "The Simpsons." We want to hear from you! Have a question for the meteorologists? Call 609-272-7099 and leave a message. You might hear your question and get an answer on a future episode! You can also email questions or comments to podcasts@lee.net. About the Across the Sky podcast The weekly weather podcast is hosted on a rotation by the Lee Weather team: Matt Holiner of Lee Enterprises' Midwest group in Chicago, Kirsten Lang of the Tulsa World in Oklahoma, Joe Martucci of the Press of Atlantic City, N.J., and Sean Sublette of the Richmond Times-Dispatch in Virginia. Episode transcript Note: The following transcript was created by Headliner and may contain misspellings and other inaccuracies as it was generated automatically: Sean Sublette: Hello, everyone. I'm, meteorologist Sean Sublette. And welcome to Across the Sky, our national Lee Enterprises Weather podcast. Lee Enterprises has print and digital operations at more than 70 locations across the country, including my home base here in Richmond, Virginia. I'm joined by my colleagues from Scross the Sky, Matt Holiner in Chicago, Joe Martucci at the New Jersey Shore. Kirsten Lang is on assignment this week. Our special guest this week is Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Formally, he is the director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. He has numerous books, television specials, and he hosts a podcast, Star Talk, where science and pop culture collide. And he's one of the most popular science communicators in the country today. His, most recent book is called To Infinity and Beyond: A Journey of Cosmic Discovery. I had a chance to talk with him just before he went out on a speaking tour of the East Coast. And fellas, I got to tell you that I got to sit down with him for about half an hour, and it was absolutely tremendous. You see some of the work that these folks do in popular culture and media, and you think, if you get a chance to talk to them, are they going to be that genuine? And, dude, absolutely was. He was just a joy to talk with. Joe, what did you kind of see? Joe Martucci: Well, I kind of took away the excitement that you had while you were interviewing him, Sean, that was tremendous. I know this was, a really special moment for you, recording, this on your birthday, no less. Happy Birthday, Sean, was. Sean Sublette: Thank you. Joe Martucci: But as somebody who has been to the Hayden Planetarium a number of times in New York City, and just the connection he has with there, of course, it's, very special to have him on and haven't really talked about some Earth and space, of course, but more the broader picture of society today and how he's contributing to the progression of society as the human race. Matt Holiner: Yeah, he really is just great to listen to. Just an excellent communicator. And it just so happens that he wants to communicate science. So that's really what's different about this podcast. Just a heads up. We're not going to just talk about weather on this episode. We really dive into all aspects of science communication and how it's become more challenging now because there's so many voices now, and how do people sort through all the information that's out there and really find the good information? So I really like how he dives into that. It's just an excellent conversation. Sean Sublette: Yeah, we really started off by talking about the importance of scientific literacy, and as you're going to be a consumer of information, what to be mindful of and what to be on the lookout for. So, without further ado, let's get right to our interview with Neil deGrasse Tyson. The importance of scientific literacy and scientific communication in an era of disinformation Sean Sublette: You do so much of this outreach, and it's extraordinary. So I want to talk about the importance of that outreach. specifically the importance of scientific literacy and scientific communication. In an era of disinformation, you work tirelessly to get the solid scientific information out there. There's so much bad information, whether it's disinformation or, know, the change in slash X and Facebook, they're always changing algorithms. So, my first question to you, thinking about cosmic perspectives, as we do, how concerned are you about scientific literacy, both domestically and internationally, and what can any or all of us do to strengthen it? Neil deGrasse Tyson: Yeah, I mean, in a free country, science illiteracy is. Anyone has the right to be illiterate, scientifically illiterate. No one's going to chase after you and pin you down to a table and force feed you science. Of course, in every state, you're required to go to school through some age, but, it's not clear how much science is required in the minimum educational portfolio of each state. But most people do graduate high school. Okay, so we can ask the question, what's going on in the science classroom in the high school? Is it what it needs to be to preempt what we see rampant across society? And apparently it's not enough or it's not the right ingredients. And so I've thought quite a bit about consider. You know, there's this song by Alice Cooper. I don't know, the title of the song maybe just called Schools Out. And the line goes, schools out for the summer. Schools out. an. It's anthemic, right? It's like, school is done and I'm done with school, and I'm going to celebrate that with a rock song. And so no one seems to be asking what's going on in school so that you would celebrate not having to go to school when your only job is to learn. That's an OD state we find ourselves in. And I don't want to blame the student, all right, we've all toiled through classes, but if your only job is to learn, maybe that can be made joyous. Maybe the curiosity necessary to learn, to learn on your own is what school needs to impart in all of its students, so that when you get out of school, you say, I'm sad school is over. But I now will continue to learn on my own because I've been inculcated with a. That's not a good word. I have been infused with, a curiosity about all that I still have yet to learn. Okay, that's a foundational comment about the school system. More specifically about science. We're taught science in these fat books with words that are bold faced that you're supposed to memorize for the exam, and then you move on. And I don't remember science being taught as a means of querying nature. Science is a tool to probe what you do not yet know. And the scientific method, which whoever can remember how to recite it, the recitation and the words used are not very informative. Test hypothesis. No, that's not what the scientific method is. I will tell you what the scientific method is. It is do whatever it takes to not fool yourself into thinking something is true that is not. Or that something is not true that is. That's what the scientific method is. Top to bottom, left to right, front to back. And if it means we can't trust our senses, bring out a chart recorder or bring out some other methods. If it means you're biased, get someone else to check your bias. If you have a hidden bias within you that you don't even see yourself, what are some of the. And, if you're susceptible to thinking something is true just because it feels good, get someone else for whom their feelings are not invested in it being true and get their view on it and compare it with yours. These are ways for the checks and balances of what it is you declare to be true. What I have found is a lot of the misinformation is peddled, shall I use that word? By charismatic people who will tell you, on a YouTube channel or whatever is their platform. I'm telling you the truth. But the big establishment wants to suppress it because they don't want you to know it. Apparently. That's irresistible. It's irresistible for truth telling. It's irresistible for product marketing. All right, I have this new device that will bypass all of these decades of marketing that's gone on with Big Pharma, big business, big government, and I am your advocate. Oh, my gosh. We're all in. When someone appeals in that way, advertisers know this because they know that you will respond more readily to a testimony of another human being than you will to a bar chart or a pie chart, which might encapsulate all the information you need to know about the integrity of the product, but that's insufficient. Get one person saying, this was the best thing I'd ever seen, and say, wow, I want that. So there's a missing dimension to our educational training. Much of it is rooted in our knowledge, understanding, and awareness of probability and statistics. Can you read the weight loss data and find out that 90% of the people do not have the result of the person who's testifying? Did you read that? Did you look at that? If you want to know where you're likely to fall in the data, go take a look. No, you don't want to fall there. You want to be with the successful person. So our inability to think statistically confounds our ability to think sensibly and rationally about data and without understanding what the scientific method is, especially with regard to our bias, implicit or explicit bias, known or unknown bias. It leaves adults susceptible for all the behavior we see on the Internet and especially in social media. So I'm taking the hard, easy answer to you and saying it's the educational system that, if it were properly wired, would preempt so much of what we see in conduct in adulthood. That's a very long answer to your question. But you asked a very loaded question there. Sean Sublette: Well, there's a lot going on there. I'm absolutely of the same mind that there is a lot of money to be made in a capitalistic society and selling something, selling information that people already want to believe. So I'm absolutely of the same mind there. And we see that, all the time. Neil deGrasse Tyson: I want to add one other thing I meant to include. So there's the charismatic person who's telling you they have the answer and others don't. There's also the lone expert. Okay, the person. And we saw this during COVID There's some MDs who are just right. That is not mainstream medicine. This is fringe medicine talking. And so they'll have their pedigree on the screen. MD, Stanford, Harvard, whatever these name. Impressive places. And then you're going to say, well, that's what I want to think is true anyway. It resonates with where I'm coming from. So I'm going to go with them, and I'm going to tell people, I'm listening to an expert. What people are not realizing is that scientific, objective truths are not established by lone wolves. They're established by repeated measurements, observations of, a declared result. And only when the repeated measurements verify it is that result. Anything that can be brought into the world of objective truths until that happens. It is fringe for some reason. Forces were operating to get the public to think that mainstream equals bad for some reason. Cutting through the disinformation in science Neil deGrasse Tyson: When mainstream is exactly what progresses science, it is precisely how it works, and mainstream is not. Oh, let's just all agree and be stubborn about it. No, mainstream is. These are experiments that repeatedly give us approximately or precisely the same result. We're going with it and we're moving on to the next problem, where you will see us fight about what's true and what's not on the frontier. but until then, no. And by the way, the researchers are faceless entities. The people who verify their research, you don't know who they are, they don't have YouTube channels. And so there's this charismatic person speaking on their own YouTube channel, and there's this vaguely rooted result you hear. It sounds vague. Well, some research has found that this is what's actually going on. Here's what you should do. No, I'm listening to this person. And so that's just to round out what it is you were trying to get across there. Sean Sublette: No, I tell people that in meteorology, before the computers got so good in these last 20 years, the best forecast is a consensus forecast. You take ten meteorologists, they look at the data, you take the average of all, they say over time, that's going to be the forecast that ends up correct. There will always be this occasional outlier, for sure, but in the longer term, that's where the money is to be made. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Right? And by the way, the word consensus, I think, officially means opinion. And so that consensus of opinion is actually redundant. But when we use the word consensus for science, these aren't opinions being expressed. These are the results of scientific experiments that are being reported by scientists. It's not simply their opinion that. No, it may come across that way. You say, well, what's the best medical opinion? Right. Opinions are, get a second opinion. All right? Usually when you ask for a second opinion, it's because you didn't like the first answer and you're going to keep doctor hopping until you find an answer you like, and then you're going to say, that's the diagnosis, which is itself a confirmation bias, which is the most pernicious among the biases. I wish we had a different word, but we have to use it. Scientific consensus is the alignment of research outcomes, not the alignment of whimsical opinions held by scientists themselves. Sean Sublette: Well, talk about word usage for a minute, because we know there are certain words we use in the scientific community that have very different connotations in the general public. The first one that comes to mind is theory. When we say a scientific theory, that's pretty close to being effect, as opposed to some kind of wishy washy thing that a lot of, the general public sees, that's kind of hypothesis. We're nowhere near that yet. Are there some words Neil deGrasse Tyson avoids in communication about science? Sean Sublette: Are there some words that you've kind of run up against and you've kind of just decided to avoid in communication? Neil deGrasse Tyson: Tons. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, if you're going to communicate, if you're going to call yourself an educator communicator, then you've got to sift through your entire lexicon, see what works, see what doesn't, see what. Now, I am fortunate. My expertise is in a field where our lexicon is highly transparent, so that I spend much less time defining words for someone than would normally occur with other professions. Jupiter has a big red spot on its atmosphere. We call it Jupiter's red spot. Right. The sun has spots. They're officially called sun spots. Right. So I don't have to then define what a sunspot is. I can just use the term and keep talking about them. So just make that clear with regard to theory. What I've done is because, it's very hard to change the public's understanding of a word. If that word has usage outside of your field, that will persist no matter how you define it for them. So theory is one of those words. So someone at home will know, I have a theory that my, so that's how they're using the word theory. You can't knock on every door and tell people to use the word differently. So I use the word theory only for established theories that are already in place. Einstein's general theory of relativity, special freely, evolutionary, theory, this sort of thing. And when people say, oh, well, if it's just a theory, that's, of course, the buzz phrase, I say, no, a theory is the highest level of understanding we have of the universe. It is not the lowest level. The lowest level would be a hypothesis. So if someone says, well, if I have a theory that, no, I say, Einstein had a theory, you have a hypothesis awaiting testing, and then people chuckle at that. So no one is then, distracted by it. So the word hypothesis is very helpful in this regard. Just tell people they have a hypothesis. If it's not yet tested, it's a hypothesis. If it's tested and it organizes ideas and it gives us insights into future discoveries, it is elevated to the level of theory. So I will say that if the conversation goes there. But if I'm just a few sentences and sound bites on the evening news, I will not use the term at all, by the way, nor will I use the word fact. A fact is that word is fraught. It's fraught because it is a fact that, if I remember the quotes correctly, it's a fact that President Trump said you could use bleach to cure COVID or whoever. It is a fact that they said it. That doesn't mean it works. So there's plenty of facts out there that reference things that are not true. So, like I said, the word fact is fraught. It is a fact that Andrew Wakefield published a paper declaring a, connection between MmR M M. vaccine and the m m measles, mumps, rubella vaccine and autism. There's a fact that he published a paper exploring that connection. That doesn't mean that's a connection. So it is a fact that mothers reported that after their kids were vaccinated, they showed, symptoms of autism. Okay? That doesn't make it a cause and effect correlation. So I don't. I never use the word fact ever. The word does not work to that point. Sean Sublette: Are there other words that you were able to use in your external communications 1520 years ago? You just throw your hands up like, I can't use that word anymore. It's lost its meaning in the general conversation. I've got to think of something else now. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Yeah, of course. No, it's not an aha moment. It's a continual assessment and measurement of the stock value of words as they are used, come in and out of use as their definitions shift, as cultural, social, religious, political mores shift. You can't just declare that no one wants to learn. Or how come, they don't do their homework. Then you're not being an educator. Sorry. You're not being a communicator. Yeah, you are. You're being the professor talking to the chalkboard while you write down your equations. And without any concern whether people are either paying attention or meeting you 90% of the way there. You can't claim yourself to be a communicator unless you turn around, face the audience, and meet them 90% of the way towards wherever their brain wiring is. This happens all the time. I also find that humor enables people to smile while they're learning, and then they come back for more. But the landscape of humor has changed, as you surely know, over the years and especially over the recent decades. Certain things that were funny in 2000 are not funny today because our sensitivities have been realigned or arisen, or maybe the sensitivities were always there, but there was no platform, to position them. So, yes, plenty of words. Happens all the time. Sean Sublette: All right, so let's step back a little bit and we talk about. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Here's a good example. I wrote about this in the late 90s. So this is 25 years, in the can right now of, course in science, in a measurement, we speak of measurement errors. And so the public wants to know what is the answer? And they don't really have much way to embrace measurement errors. It doesn't really work unless we retrain everyone in school. Sean Sublette: I don't think box and whisker plots test, very well, do they? Neil deGrasse Tyson: Exactly. So what happens is I saw a news account of, a research paper that described the result, and it said, oh, but, it didn't catch on because the paper had a lot of errors in it. I said, what does that even mean? And then I realized the paper talked about the measurement errors, and the journalists thought that this meant it had errors. And so I've never used the word error unless it's a literal error. So I changed error to uncertainty. I wrote an essay called Certain Uncertainties, where I talked about, when you measure something, there's uncertainties around those measurements. And I don't even use the word margin of error, which is still used when they report political voting results. That's a start. Margin of error plus or, -3% that came in, in the last 20 years. That's very good. It's a start. But error is the wrong word because they are not errors. Even though we use that term, uncertainty still works. That still has scientific validity, and you don't have to define it for the public. They know what an uncertainty is. And you can say some measured, quantities are more uncertain than others. That is a completely understandable sentence. What would happen if the sun instantly went away? Sean Sublette: All right, before I cut you loose, I do have a couple of more tangible science questions. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Sorry I haven't given you a chance to ask. No, this is two questions so far. Sean Sublette: This is just extraordinary. And I'm happy to have you here and talk about these things. So I was reading the book and. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Which book? Sean Sublette: The most recent one. To infinity and beyond. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Yes. Just came out two months ago. Sean Sublette: So, speed of light, of course, we know the speed of light, and it takes eight minutes for sunlight to get to Earth. Neil deGrasse Tyson: About that. Yeah. Sean Sublette: Right. One of the things that I have trouble thinking about, and this is one of these cosmic query type things, sun instantly goes away. We wouldn't know about it for eight minutes. Neil deGrasse Tyson: That's correct. We'd still orbit, we'd still feel sunlight, we'd still feel gravity. Sean Sublette: That's exactly what I wanted to ask. Does the gravitational information also take eight minutes? Does the Earth still act as if it is going in orbit around the sun, or is that gravitational force instantly gone? Neil deGrasse Tyson: Yeah. So, there's a slight, subtle difference here. In Einsteinian description of gravity, gravity is the curvature of spacetime. Okay? So we are orbiting in this curved spacetime continuum caused by the sun. And the dimples in a rubber sheet get you most of the way to understand that. Where we are sort of, spiraling, orbiting, in the dimple. Okay. So if you instantly take away the sun, that is a change in the gravitational field. And changes in the gravitational field move at the speed of light. So it would take eight minutes for you to even know that the sun's gravitational field was no longer operating on Earth, and we would instantly fly off at a tangent if that were the case. I mean, after the eight minutes. Eight minutes and 20 seconds, if you want to be precise. Sean Sublette: Right. Neil deGrasse Tyson: And, Einstein demonstrated that gravity would move at the same as the speed of light. Sean Sublette: All right, excellent. Neil deGrasse Tyson explains his speaking tour and what to expect Sean Sublette: Last thing before I let you go, talk a little bit about this speaking tour. I've seen it advertised at different theaters slightly different ways. Is it going to be very different at each place, or is this kind of all tying back to, to infinity and beyond, or what can people kind of expect? Neil deGrasse Tyson: So thanks for noticing that. So, my speaking tour is hardly ever bordering on never related to books that I've just published. The speaking tour is I get invited by a city, and many cities across the country, fascinatingly, have this sort of old grand Dam theater from 100 years ago, that if there's municipal funds, typically there are or business interests, they fix it up and what do you call it? Renovate. And they fix up the molding and the statues and the gilding. And so it's beautiful spaces. And these are back when going to a theater, you would dress up to go to see movies in the movie theater. So many of them come from that era. So many towns have such theaters, and they remain in active use. I get invited to a city to present, and so I'm, honored and flattered. I give them a list of twelve to 15 possible topics that they choose from, and then they tell me, we want you to come talk on this subject. And that's what I do. So for Richmond, they picked the topic that I've given them. Cosmic collisions. Oh, my gosh. Cosmic things that go bump in the night. There's so many things that collide. Stars collide, galaxies collide, black holes collide. Asteroids collide with Earth. We collided with an asteroid recently to try to deflect it. So it's everything that's going on in the universe. This idea that, oh, we live in a static, beautiful. No, the universe is a shooting gallery. And so I'm there to talk about how much of a shooting gallery it is. And yes, I have some videos, slides, and it's mostly me talking, but that's what Richmond is getting. There are other topics, I think I've been in this venue before. Other topics that either they didn't choose because I was there a couple of years ago or not would be the search for life in the universe. And that's continually being updated with the congressional hearings on aliens and all of this. That's a whole topic, search for life in the universe. One of my favorites is an astrophysicist goes to the movies, and that's where I highlight all manner of scenes, not just from Sci-Fi films, but other films you would never imagine cared about science. Yet there's science in it, either done very well or done very badly. And I highlight that. And that was so popular. There's a sequel to it called an astrophysicist goes to the movies. The sequel, anyhow, that's just a smattering of the topics. And typically there's a book that I written recently, and if the theater is interested, they might task a local, indie publisher to sell them in the lobby. But most of the time, that's not what happens. And if they do, it has nothing to do with the talk. In other words, when I go on, quote, tour, I'm, not trying to sell you anything. I'm a servant of your appetite, of your cosmic appetite, as declared by the host for whatever it's their judgment of the audience's interest. Sean Sublette: Excellent. Sean Sublette: Well, I've got the book. It's wonderful. And personally, thank you for, as a meteorologist, thank you for starting with the atmosphere in the book. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Oh, we did. Thanks for noticing that we start. Sean Sublette: Oh, I noticed that right away. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Yeah, there's a whole discussion of the atmosphere, because the book, to infinity and beyond, by the way, it's a beautiful book. I would say that even if I was not co-author of it, I co-wrote it with our longtime senior, producer for Startalk my podcast. This is a collaboration between Star Talk and National Geographic books. And so the book is, they don't know how to make an ugly book. This is National Geographic, so it's highly illustrated. And it's an exploration of what it was like standing flat footed on Earth, looking up. And what did it take for us to ascend from Earth to the stars and know we go from Icarus? That's a nice first story to tell. And Icarus dies. And you say to yourself, well, oh, I'm not going to try to fly. Or you're going to say, well, let me maybe design the wings differently of a different material rather than wax. Okay. And of course, they thought that temperature would get higher as you ascended the atmosphere, when, of course, the exact opposite is the case. And so it's fun to explore what was imagined to be sort of infinitely far away in the history of this quest. We would then conquer it. Let me use a less militaristic word. We would then achieve those goals, and then we're standing in a new place now. We are now in balloons, and we can say, well, how do we fly with not a balloon. Now we have airplanes, and how do we fly out of the atmosphere? We have rockets. How do we fly beyond? How do we fly to the moon? How do we fly beyond the moon? Well, we can't do that yet, but we can send our robotic emissaries. How do we go beyond those? Well, then our mind takes us there. All right. And so part of this quest, the whole book chronicles and storytells this quest, which is quite, the noblest thing. Our species did it, and no one other, species comes close to even wondering that this could be something we could do. So I got to hand it to humans, to making this work in that way. So, yeah, that book only just came out two months ago and very proud of it, and it's a very beautiful. And the DNA of my podcast, Star Talk, is science, pop culture, and humor. I mentioned humor earlier. The pop culture part is you show up at the door with a pop culture scaffold that I already know, because that's the definition of pop culture. It's a common knowledge. I don't have to say who Beyoncé is or what a football field looks like. There's certain fundamentals that are out there. We take the science and clad it onto that scaffold so that you already care about something, and now you care about it more because I've added more information for you to celebrate about the thing this pop culture thing you cared about. Point is, in this book, we do that continually. If there's a Hollywood movie that touches some of the topics that we address, this is like the scenery along the way of the book. I dip into the movie and we talk about how well the movie did or didn't, portray that physics. Sean Sublette: Wonderful. Dr. Tyson, I know you've got to get going, so thank you so much for your time. Shout out to Chuck, nice and all the team there at Star Talk. Love the work, love what he brings to it as well. And when you have the guest, my. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Comedian, my co-host, comedian or foil. Sean Sublette: But, it's wonderful. Thank you so much. Looking forward to seeing you, when you're down here in Richmond next week. And travel safe, sir. Neil deGrasse Tyson: Excellent. Thank you for those well wishes. Neil deGrasse Tyson says you have to reach people where they are Sean Sublette: And guys. I was just absolutely in my element talking with him about science and how to communicate science, and the things you want to do, as he said, to reach people where they are. I let my daughter know I was doing this and she really emphasized this point that he made is that you have to meet people 90% of where they are already. Don't turn your back and write on a chalkboard. Look at people, be with people, understand where they are to make that connection with them. That is so key in this day and Age. Joe Martucci: I agree with that 100%. I think I might even said on this podcast, when it comes to weather forecast, you Have, I don't kNow, maybe two dozen places to get a weather forecast from at any given point in time, at any point in day. So what differentiates you from those other 24 people? Well, accuracy is going to have something to do with it, but a lot of times it has to do with the connection that you have with the community. Now, there's downsides to that. as Neil deGrasse Tyson spoke about, you have some people who are very personable, but who might not know what they're talking about. But when you have somebody who knows what they're talking about is in the community or meeting with the people where they are, that is where you have the best results. And that's why you have people like Neil deGrasse Tyson, who's widely respected and acclaimed not only because he knows what he's talking about, but because he's doing it in a way where you can listen and say, hey, yeah, I know what he's talking about. Hey, I Know What She's Talking About. Joe Martucci: So, great job, Sean, with the podcast. Matt Holiner: yeah, there's just a lot to unpack mean, I wish we could have kept the conversation going. I wish we all could have been in there and asked questions. We could have chatted with him for hours. But obviously a very busy guy and does not have the time for, you know, I think what really highlighted for me the challenge that we're facing these days is he went through words that are difficult to use these days and have double meanings. He talked about how he doesn't even like to use the word fact. He Said the word does NOt work, fact. And that kind of blew my mind. It's like, gosh, we don't even know what facts are because he says it's a fact that somebody said this, but it's not a fact that what they said is true. And it's like, gosh, that's a good point. So even the meaning of the word fact is difficult. And how I liked also how he used, if something hasn't been tested yet, what you're saying is a hypothesis. It's not a theory. He talked about, oh, I have a theory about this. It's like, no, you have a hypothesis because you haven't tested it yet. If it's been tested, then you can call it a theory. So just talking about that and the word error, he mentioned that as well. How if you use the word error, people might say, oh, well, then this paper is just garbage because it's full of errors. Like, no, those were measurement errors. It's talking about uncertainty. It wasn't an error itself. So he's very cautious about the word error and only using the word error when a true error was made. So, gosh, we have to be so careful about the wording because it can be misconstrued and misunderstood so easily. Gosh, him just going through those different words just shows you what a challenge it is today, how you have to be so careful about the wording and is all about the wording and being very explicit and explaining things in detail. Otherwise it'll get totally misunderstood. Sean Sublette: It takes a lot of work because certain words have different connotations. And like you said, you're not going to go in, knock on people's doors and go, no, you're using that word wrong. You're not going to do that. Right. So this is why you kind of have to take opportunities as they come to redirect, what you want to get out of a word or a meaning like that. It's like when we talk about weather, we talk about severe weather. In meteorology, we're talking about something very specific. We're talking about damaging winds that are generally more than 58 miles an hour. We're talking about a tornado. But to a lot of the general public, severe weather is just bad. That's just bad weather, right? So language is always changing, and as he said, it's always evolving. It's not like, well, we just kind of watch how the lexicon changes. Some terms just don't mean what they used to. Humor is changing through time, so it is always a process. And I think that's one of the things that anybody who's trying to communicate science needs to be aware of. And he does a great job with the humor as Well. I try to do it with humor. sometimes I'm a little more successful, than others, but it was certainly just a great podcast. I'm very grateful for him, to spend some time with us. Coming up on the Across the Sky podcast: American Ninja Warrior, Bob Dylan and more! Sean Sublette: Joe. We've got a couple other more interesting things coming up, down the pike, right? Joe Martucci: Oh, yeah, we sure do. So coming up on the, Monday after Thanksgiving, this is October. Excuse me. November 22. Oh, my gosh. Doing it all wrong. Let's try it again. November 27. There we go. Third time is a charm. We are going to have Joe Morovsky from American Ninja Warrior Come on the podcast. Joe, is also known as the Weatherman on American Ninja Warrior. Yes, he is a meteorologist, and yes, we are going to talk to him about the weather and his time on the NBC hit show. Then on December the fourth, we actually have one of my college professors, Dr. Alan Robock. Now he courses a meteorologist, but he's also a very big Bob Dylan fan. In fact, he's such a Bob Dylan fan that he did his PhD thesis on Bob Dylan and the Weather. so that is really interesting. And then we also have an episode for you on December 18. That's going to be ten things to know about winter. And then sometime in that week, between Christmas and New Year's, we're going to have our year in review. So the train keeps on rolling here at the across the Sky podcast team. we've gotten a couple of emails of feedback over the past days and weeks, and we certainly appreciate that. And you certainly can continue to send that to Podcast@Lee.net that's Podcast@Lee.net. Or feeling like it and want to give us a call. You certainly can at 609-272-7099. 609-272-7099 Back to you, Sean. Sean Sublette: All right, good stuff all around. Anything else, Matt? Are you good, man? Matt Holiner: I'm still letting that interview wash over me. Man. I, think the other thing he know, a lot of times, a lot of the people that are spreading misinformation are very charismatic, and so that's why they're catchy and people latch onto them. But it's like, well, you know what? We need charismatic people to be spreading good information. He is the prime example. We need more Neil deGrasse Tysons in the world to spread good information and be charismatic. Sean Sublette: Yeah. No argument with that for me. All right, gentlemen, thank you very much. And Joe Martucci and Matt Holiner. And in absentia, Kirsten Lang in Tulsa, thanks for joining us. A week on the across the Sky Podcast. I'm meteorologist Sean sublet in Richmond, Virginia. Have a great week, and we will see you next time.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Do you ever feel like you are more sensitive to rejection, teasing, criticism, or your own perception that you have failed or fallen short? Or maybe you know someone who seems to be particularly hard on themselves and reactive to others? Everyone experiences some reaction to rejection, but individuals with RSD find themselves more likely to perceive harsh rejection and criticism where there might be none and can sometimes feel like they live in a chronic state of rejection. In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, dive deep into the complexities of rejection sensitivity dysphoria (RSD) and its impact on neurodivergent individuals and the people around them. Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode: Understand the impact of RSD and how it can lead to chronic pain, affect relationships, and cause avoidance behaviors in professional and personal settings. Hear about some ways that RSD can impact relationship dynamics and major life changes and decisions. Learn about treatments and strategies to help with RSD, as well as ways to adapt therapeutic modalities to be more effective with neurodivergent individuals. Rejection sensitivity dysphoria can be difficult to navigate both internally and externally and can have a profound impact on the way you experience the world, but there are ways to address it that can help with reducing the intensity around feelings of rejection and finding ways to improve relationships through collaborative communication around RSD. Resources plus Exclusive Coupon Code Dr. Neff's Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria Workbook Bundle (Clinical Use): https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-clinical  Dr. Neff's Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria Workbook Bundle (Personal Use): https://neurodivergentinsights.com/neurodivergentstore/p/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-bundle Use Code: “DivergentConversationsListener” To get 20% off anything in the shop, including the RSD bundle.  Dr. Neff's free blog posts on RSD: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/blog/category/Rejection+Sensitive+Dysphoria  The EFT attachment infinity loop can be downloaded here: https://neurodivergentinsights.com/couples-resources   A Thanks to Our Sponsor, Tula Consulting! ✨ Tula Consulting: We would love to thank Tula Consulting for sponsoring this episode. Workplace communication can be messy. Considering the lens of neurodiversity can be helpful for understanding this. Maybe you found yourself frustratedly typing "per my last email" in an office communication, perplexed about how a colleague or client doesn't seem to understand your very clearly written email. Consider this. Visual information processing isn't everyone's strength. Perhaps a quick call could make a world of difference. Or how about including a video or voice message with your email? And this technology exists! Simple steps like these can make your work environment more accessible and bring out the best in everyone. Tula Consulting is on a mission to help organizations build more neuro-inclusive products and work environments. Tula does this by bringing curious minds to solve curious problems. Find out more by visiting tulaneurodiversity.org.   Transcript PATRICK CASALE: Hey, so we are about to do an episode on RSD today, which I think we are going to turn into a two-part episode. One, because there's so much to cover. Too, because Megan just wrote a 170-page workbook on the subject. Three, because I am unbelievably jet lagged and haven't slept in days. And Megan is not feeling well and is sick. So, we're going to do what we can today to kind of jump into the introduction to this topic. But a lot of you submitted questions to our Instagram, a lot of you submitted questions in general, and we want to cover all of them. We just may not get there today. But this is certainly a topic that we are going to circle back to. So, because Megan just wrote a 170-page workbook, I'm going to turn it over to you to kind of set the stage. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, well, one problem is when you've been swimming in the literature it's hard to know where to start the conversation. So, yeah, how do I synthesize RSD? Well, RSD stands for rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yeah, I guess I'll go over the history of it briefly. So, it was coined by Dr. William Dotson, who if you don't know who that is, like, I recommend Googling him. He's got a lot of really awesome articles up. He's got a lot of webinars that are free through ADDitude Magazine. And he's, like, done a lot in really emphasizing kind of the emotion regulation struggle that often happens with ADHD. But yeah, he's the one that coined RSD. Although, you could actually go back to the '60s and there was a psychiatrist before him, Dr. Paul Wender, who was describing symptoms that now we realize are RSD, who's using the language of atypical depression. But looking back, we actually see, like, okay, that was undiagnosed or often undiagnosed ADHD. And it was RSD and emotion regulation struggles that he was describing. So, there have been breadcrumbs of this in the literature since the 1960s. But it was really in the last 20 years or so that it's become an actual term. It's not a diagnosis. It's not something you'd be diagnosed with. It comes out of the ADHD literature, so there's some debate, like, is this a specifically ADHD thing? And there's several people that say, yes, this is like a distinctive ADHD thing. So, that's the kind of, I guess, clinical definition of RSD. Oh, I guess what it is. So, the question that Dr. Dotson would ask his… and he's a psychiatrist, he's not a psychologist, he's a psychiatrist. But what he'd ask his people when they come in is this question, "For your entire life, have you always been much more sensitive than people you know to rejection, teasing, criticism, or your own perception that you failed or have fallen short?" And he said, 99% of ADHDers would have this like, yes. And not just, yes, but like, "Oh, my gosh, I feel like you know something about me that I've been so embarrassed to tell the people in my life." And then about a third of ADHDers said, "This is the hardest part of ADHD to live with." So, it's pretty significant when we think about kind of the clinical picture of ADHD. Okay, I'll take a breather there. So, that's, I guess, the clinical definition, is it's a really intense, physical, emotional response to the perception of rejection. Or even, like, I guess self-rejection in the sense of like, I didn't live up to my own standards or bar, yes. PATRICK CASALE: And this is very different than other forms of rejection. And I think that's important. Like, you went over that in your... was it Misdiagnosis Monday that you created the diagram for recently? MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so I created a Venn diagram comparing, like, what is normative rejection sensitivity and then what is RSD? And that's actually typically where I start the conversation. Earlier I was like, "Oh, I don't know where to start the conversation. I usually start with like the evolutionary history." Rejection sensitivity is like a human experience and thank goodness it is. So, if we look at it from an evolutionary lens, the idea that belonging to a group literally meant survival for most of human history. You know, we're pack creatures, and we're not the biggest or strongest species, but it's our ability to think together, to be together, to problem solve together that has meant humans have survived. So, the thinking goes, and this is, you know, any evolutionary psychology is going to be an oversimplification, but kind of the thinking goes, so our anatomy hasn't caught up, right? So, if we perceive rejection, we can experience that as a threat to belonging, therefore a threat to survival on a very kind of automatic level because it's like it's baked into our DNA. And so we haven't caught up to the fact that we don't actually have to belong to the group to survive in modern life. But our body chemistry or our nervous system hasn't caught up to that. So, I like to frame, like, rejection sensitivity through that lens of, yeah, this makes sense as a human experience and it's a spectrum. Some people have really intense. So, like, if you have RSD, you're going to have a really intense rejection sensitivity, whereas other people have more mild rejection sensitivity. But yeah, that is what I did on the Venn diagram and the articles. I walk through, like, this is what normative rejection sensitivity looks like and this is what RSD looks like because RSD is above and beyond that normative sensitivity to rejection. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, thanks for setting the stage like that because I think it's important to delineate between the two. Like, it's absolutely a process of human experience to feel hurt when they feel rejected, or to feel vulnerable, or to feel insecure, or to feel unsafe. But this takes this to a whole new level, right? Because the symptomology, the struggles that come with RSD can really intensify very quickly and be unbelievably debilitating. MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, debilitating. And like, yeah, I think that captures it. And that is part of, like, that's one of the ways I distinguish between, like, RSD versus normative of how much is influencing the person's decisions or daily life. And if, like, a fear of rejection, a fear of putting ourselves out there is significantly influencing our decision, that has a lot of control over our day-to-day. And typically, it's not a great thing for our well-being when fear is controlling. There's a lot of avoidance that can often happen for people when they have RSD. Like, avoidance of social situations, or putting themselves out there for like a job promotion. So, there can be career implications, romantic implications. Like, I can't even imagine asking someone out on a date, right? What if I'm rejected? So, yeah, it can be really debilitating. PATRICK CASALE: I see it show up a lot in the coaching that I do because of the entrepreneurial side of my business with a lot of my ADHD coaching clients, where it's really hard to even put themselves out there on social media, it's really hard to create content, it's really hard to put their own spin on something because God forbid someone comes in and critiques it or says something that really sends them down that shame spiral. MEGAN NEFF: So, I actually just had a really interesting consultation around this. And right now I'm working with a psychoanalyst because I'm wanting to… this is a little bit of a divergent trail, I'm wanting to… So, as a psychologist, when I work one-on-one with people, I have a relational framework for the work I do. And I've realized having a framework is really helpful. So, I'm wanting to figure out how to adapt that relational framework to what I do as a public psychologist. So, I've been consulting with… a lot of people consult with like business coaches, I'm consulting with a psychoanalyst to figure out how do I bring a relational framework to the work I'm doing? PATRICK CASALE: That's right. MEGAN NEFF: But part of what came up was this, I've realized in writing this workbook that RSD is probably the number one block when it comes to, especially, social media because social media is just such a vicious space right now. It can be, I shouldn't make global statements, it can be. And one thing I was talking about was how as an autistic person, my ideas, and my emotions are not separate. So, as an autistic ADHDer, right? Like, and I see that a lot with autistic people, our ideas, and our emotions, our ideas, our values, and our personhood are so integrated. So, when I put my ideas out there, I'm putting a lot of myself out there, and then you layer on top of that RSD, damn, that's hard. PATRICK CASALE: It is. That's such a great way to kind of just put that out there too. And I know that you've been on the receiving end as I have too, your audience is significantly bigger, so you probably receive more of it, but I've been on the receiving end of text messages with you where someone said something nasty, or really like offensive, or just inappropriate, and how debilitating… why do I keep using that word? How painful that [CROSSTALK 00:10:1]1- MEGAN NEFF: ...today. PATRICK CASALE: I don't know, I feel like my brain is moving at like MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, we're both struggling. PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:10:19] but how painful that experience has been for you and how it makes you kind of retreat inward, and then a void. MEGAN NEFF: It does. So, I just recently switched things up. And it's actually been so good for my mental health. Like, the way I joke about is that I've emotionally broken up with social media because what I was noticing, I noticed a few things and it's so helpful to have the RSD lens. Like, probably for the first six months, when I was growing, it was really exciting. I'd open the app, I'd be excited to see like how many like, you know, because I had these little posts that would just go viral. And it'd be exciting to see that. And then it shifted to where I'd open the app and I would dread like, "Oh, no, did it go viral?" Or like my stomach would drop every time I open the app. Or every time I open a DM or the comments, like, half the time I literally kind of open the comments because I would feel so stuck of like, what am I going to see? 99% of the comments are really incredible things to read. But of course, those aren't the ones that stick to my brain. It's the 1% of it. Again, I want to tease apart, some of the comments that are critiques have been really, really good learning experiences for me. And then some of them are just like rude, and unkind, and come with a lot of hostility. And I do value the ones that are hard to take in but those have been good learning experiences for me. Yeah, I got to a point where I would feel physically sick opening the app. So, what I've done is I've turned comments off. I have an auto DM. And I will go days without opening the app. So, I will open it on Monday and Wednesday when I post. And you know how you can see on your phone how much time you've spent, like I spend like five minutes a week on Instagram. And it's amazing. And I feel like I've so much of my nervous system back, I have so much my mental real estate back. And I'm reinvesting that. I've launched my more community-oriented membership. And I'm reinvesting that energy in people who are really committed to showing up and engaging authentically. And I cannot explain what a difference that has made for my mental health. PATRICK CASALE: I'm really happy that you've done that for yourself because I know the amount of energy it takes. I also know how impactful it becomes. And it becomes a situation where you have… I, typically, in these moments will shut down, I will avoid, I'll turn everything off, I have to disconnect from everything. And then you're right, there's like this fearfulness of even opening the app back up. There's this like overwhelming dread sensation of like having to look at anything where you may perceive it in any sort of way that feels critical or… and not in a bad way because criticism is not always a bad thing, like you mentioned. But there are just people who like to just say stupid shit just to say stupid shit. And you have free rein to do that on the internet. So, it becomes really hard for people who are in online practices who are therapists who will have to network virtually, who have to show up online because that can really intensify very quickly and all of a sudden that leads to that shutdown or the disconnection. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. No, I love how you're connecting it to entrepreneurship because I think there's a lot of, particularly, ADHD entrepreneurs and RSD is very ADHD thing. And like, that double-edged sword of, yeah, like, you have to put yourself out there to be an entrepreneur. And oh, my goodness, if you put yourself out there, you're going to face criticism. You just are. Like, you can't please everyone. And something I like that's a mantra I remind myself, but when you have RSD you have to. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, you're right. And that's why I keep bringing up the entrepreneurial side is because so many ADHDers that I know are entrepreneurs and it makes sense. Like, it works with the way the brain functions, and the creativity, and the spontaneity, and all the innovation. And like, it's also really challenging because it is about showing up. And you mentioned something before that's sticking in my mind about like, the inner connection of like the inner woven thought, feeling, experience for autistic people. And I get that very much and so much of ourselves when we put ourselves out there in that way, is like this is an extension of how I'm feeling and how I'm moving through the world. So, for it to be picked apart at times of like, "Oh, well, this isn't that character, this doesn't sound right, or like, I don't like the way this came across." All of a sudden it becomes this, like, sensation or this experience of my personhood, like, my sense of self is being under attack right now. And that makes me want to, like, bury my head and hide. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And then, again, I guess, to bring it back to the AuDHD experience, like, another thing I see and I experience as an autistic person is like the fear of putting something out there and it being factually wrong. Like, I think that's one of my biggest fears. And I see that with a lot of autistic people. Like, what if I write something, and then in five years new research comes out, and like that language, and that, like, I've been talking to my spouse a lot about… my business has just become a huge source of stress if I'm working way too many hours, and I'm chronically sick. So, something has to change. And one of the things I was realizing and talking with my spouse, the reason I'm so stressed is I'm frantically because I have this membership that I've historically published a workbook a month that also means I've got like 20 workbooks, and I'm like, what is wrong in that, that I now want to go back and update? Because the idea of like, anything being out in the world that has my name on it, that might be factually wrong, from an autistic lens is also, like, very unfathomable. PATRICK CASALE: And I imagine how unmanageable that becomes too, that it's like, "Oh, I have a 170-page workbook. Now I have to go back and add or edit and revise." And like, very time consuming, obviously. But, you know, Luke is obviously a God sent too, so… MEGAN NEFF: Yes, that's what he is [INDISCERNINBLE 00:16:44] one. But yeah, so I think, especially, the autistic ADHD experience, it gets complicated because there's a lot of different layers that we can feel rejected or criticized. So, this, I think, is a really important part of RSD. And I think this becomes an important part of learning how to work with RSD when our brain is hyper-vigilantly scanning for signs of rejection, what it means is that, like, the wiring around that is going to become like, and the neural pathways are going to become really forged around, like, perceiving rejection, which means we're going to perceive it when it's not actually there. And this is where I think partnerships and friendships really suffer. Like, let's say two ADHDers, right? So, like, someone forgets to call or someone forgets, like, because working memory, it can be a struggle, and the person with RSD that might trigger, like, that person doesn't care about me, and it could trigger so many narratives, when it's really like, oh, something came up and they forgot. And I think that is part of what causes so much pain around RSD is it's like someone is perceiving it chronically when they're not actually being rejected. PATRICK CASALE: That's what I come across the most too when people are asking questions around RSD is like, well, if I'm moving through the world where I'm constantly feeling this pain of rejection or experiencing it this way, how do I then move through the world? Because it's so hard to maintain friendships, working relationships, professional relationships, etc. when I'm experiencing RSD so intensely in all of these situations. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, for a lot of people it's like, okay, it's easier just not to put myself out there. It's easier not to be in a relationship. It's easier to make my world small. And that's a really sad solution. PATRICK CASALE: It is because there's so many feelings of isolation, and loneliness, and disconnection as there is for a lot of neurodivergent people, so intentionally shrinking your world to protect yourself from potential harm, it's really, really hard. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We haven't even talked about that aspect of RSD of, and this is why, like, you also hear autistic people talk about RSD. I'm really curious, we haven't seen a study on this but I'd be curious if we did a study that controlled for the ADHD because we know so many autistic people have ADHD, like purely autistic people, would they still have RSD? I'd love to see a study on that. But the neurodivergent experience of just perpetual miss-attunement, like we have had more rejection. So, that's another complicating factor, right? We're more likely to perceive it, but partly that's because we are more likely to have experienced social victimization and rejection. And then it becomes this kind of vicious feedback loop of if we show up anticipating rejection, we might have developed psychological defenses and ways of being in the world that actually make it more likely for us to be rejected. And, yeah, it's vicious. PATRICK CASALE: We've talked before about, like, how we always lay out the pain points because so much of the experience is pain points, honestly. But if we're saying this, right? And then we take a step back from the clinical lens for people to say, okay, this is my experience, this is my world, this is every day, this is how I move through relationships, this is how I perceive conversation and feedback. What do we do? MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, no, I mean, there are things we can do. And I'm going to kind of put it in two buckets, psychopharmacological. Okay, big words and brain fog don't mix well today. And then kind of psychological treatments or therapeutic, like, more traditional type treatments. And again, this comes from Dr. Dotson's work, but he has talked about, so there's a class of medications, I'm going to actually look it up so I make sure I'm using the right words, that it's a non-stimulant medication, that it's a class of medications that's sometimes used for a for ADHD. So, alpha agonist is the class, and clonidine and guanfacine are the two medications within that class. Okay, this is really technical, but both have about a 30% response rate. So, a response rate when we're talking about medication is kind of significant reduction of symptoms when the person is on it. So, 30% isn't great. But these two medications are different enough that if you try one, and it doesn't work, and you try the other, there's about a 55 to 60% response rate that one of these will work for you. That's actually a pretty good response rate when it comes to medication. And Dr. Dotson, and again, he is a psychiatrist, but like, he will talk about how he's worked with people who have maybe been like, psychoanalysts for 10 years. RSD wasn't touched, they go on medication, and it's like they ask a girl out for the first time or they apply for that job. Like, it provides emotional armor that they needed. A, to just get out of that avoidance suit, but B, to actually be able to engage like the talk therapy tools. We often need some sort of armor or just regulation to be able to engage the tools that are useful. So, I think that's a really helpful frame just to realize, like, there are medications out there that might be helpful for some people. PATRICK CASALE: That is definitely helpful. And then, you know, on the other bucket, the psychological framework and toolkit that we're talking about, what are strategies that you think are useful? MEGAN NEFF: So, yeah, like a lot of kind of the traditional emotion regulation strategies, but then like, a little bit more targeted. First of all, I think, learning about the rejection sensitivity lens, I say this a lot, and sometimes it gets big reactions, but like, we have to learn to not always trust our minds. Like, our minds are not always helpful. Sometimes, like- PATRICK CASALE: Totally. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, our minds love attention. And so sometimes it'll spew the most mean, negative, alarming things at us to get our attention. And this is one area where I think learning to not trust our minds becomes really important, realizing, okay, I am prone to have like a rejection goggles on or rejection lens on, which means I'm going to see it when, like, maybe my partner isn't actually trying to reject me, or maybe my boss is genuinely giving me… like, is intending good for me in this constructive feedback. So, I think one really getting clarity on that lens so that we can identify when that's on so that we can unhook from it a little bit more. I would say that's the first step. Other steps like emotion regulation strategies. So, again, if we put this back into the perspective of a threat response, our nervous system, our stress state, our fight, flight, freeze, fawn wherever we go in our nervous system is going to be activated when we're perceiving rejection. So, I'm a big fan of like nervous system mapping, which I think that comes from polyvagal theory. I don't love all of polyvagal theory, but I like this idea of nervous system mapping of like, let me map where I am in my stress response, and then figure out what tools you need. So, if you're someone who goes, like hyperarousal, you would need downregulation strategies to kind of help cool the body off. So, emotion regulation strategies. And then, also, things like knowing your rejection triggers, knowing your, like, what I call raw, but what I didn't come up with the term, but raw spots. Like, what are those raw spots or those areas in our life where maybe we have some attachment wounds, or some relational wounds so when they get bumped they pull a big reaction from us, getting a lot of clarity about, like, what are your rough spots? Why? What's the history of those? What happens to you when those get activated? So, also, like a ton of insight, right? Insight into your relational patterns, into your psyche. I'll stop there, that was a bit. There's, I'm sure more. PATRICK CASALE: Those are good to start out with so that people can implement this stuff and start, you know, doing their own research or incorporating these into their day-to-day because I think it's important to be proactive, too, because I think you're mentioning so many important tips right now and the raw spot suggestion, great suggestion, right? Because if you know what creates these triggers for you, then you can work on, you know, preventing, or at least putting into practice something that will help regulate when you're going into events like that or moments like that. I actually don't like at all, and I just want to be clear about this, CBT but REBT, rational emotive behavioral therapy, when you do like the ABCDE model of like activating event, behavioral challenge, challenging belief disputation, because what we're talking about is like, my wife's not picking up the phone, she must not love me anymore. And we're jumping to these conclusions, we're catastrophizing a lot, and I like that you said, don't always trust your brain because there are always, and I don't want to use blanket statements either, there are often alternative explanations for behavior. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Wait, so are you saying you don't typically like CBT but you do like that CBT exercise? PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I like that exercise because it allows you to say like, what's the activating event? Okay, she doesn't pick up the phone. My immediate reaction is she doesn't love me anymore, right? Like, and then you've kind of processed it through that lens of like, but what are the other scenarios here for not picking up the phone? MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'm glad you say that because I'm with you. And that, like, I tend to not default to CBT, especially, for neurodivergent or anyone who's had a marginalized experience in the world because I think it can be really invalidating. But then there's these tools from CBT that I really like. And I'm like, well, if you put it in context, this can actually be really helpful. And I don't want us to, like, throw the baby out with the bathwater. So, I'll talk about that too, like putting your thoughts through a reality filter. And there's certain questions you can ask to be like, okay, is this thought helpful to me right now? Is it like, yeah, are there cognitive distortions that are, like, influencing this? Kind of that detective work of like, let me become a detective of my own mind, and my own experience, and my own thoughts, which even just the act of stepping outside of the experience into that observing detective, ideally, non-evaluative, non-judgmental mode is therapeutic, no matter where you land on the reality filter of the thought. PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, yeah. And I'll just piggyback on my statement of saying I'm not a fan of CBT. I know how harmful it is for marginalized communities and for neurodivergent folks in… oh, we could have a whole episode on therapeutic modalities that don't work well for neurodivergent human beings. But if you put it through that lens, and I like that you use that word, you can start becoming that detective, you can start, like, taking that step back because it's really helpful when it feels like almost everything is creating this intensification of experiences that leaves you feeling like you're not able to participate in your life because you just feel like you can't put yourself out there or you can't, you know, speak your mind, or you feel like you just can't show up the way you want to show up. And I think that's really challenging for a lot of ND folks, too, is like, if I can't show up authentically, that really feels uncomfortable and that feels really painful, too. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I mean, that then ties into like masking and RSD which that can be its own, like complex conversation. But yeah, if masking helps reduce RSD you could see how like, okay, I'm going to say this, but then I'm going to unpack it, masking becomes a form of self-care. And I don't mean that masking is actually self-care, but like, in that option of like, I'm either going to, like, spiral, like, the fear of I'm going to spiral with RSD because I'm going to show up authentically and you know, the fear, it's not going to be perceived, or I'm going to mask, I could see how for someone masking feels like the less energy cost of the two. And again, that's assuming that masking is like a choice, which it often is not. But it's just that is an interesting, like, yeah, the masking RSD dynamic. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think we could take this in a variety of ways. And I think we could talk about, like, partnership and RSD, I think we could talk about so many different avenues. I also don't know how your energy is and I want to check on that. MEGAN NEFF: No, I actually feel like I've talked a lot about like content creation in RSD, which is not going to be, like, the majority of people listening to this. So, I'd love to spend some energy to generalize it more to, yeah, relationships, workplace, things like that. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely. PATRICK CASALE: So, let's talk relationships. Whether it's, you know, different neurotypes, same neurotype, one person is experiencing RSD, one person's not, that can be really challenging because conflict can arise in relationships, and often does. And it can feel really, really painful to feel like you are being critiqued, or you feel really vulnerable, or you're, you know, feeling like you're spiraling often in conversations with your partner. And I imagine then the other partner would then feel that challenge too of like, I don't even know what I can say. MEGAN NEFF: Yes, yeah. I mean, I think it's painful for both people involved, right? Because if one person feels like they're walking on eggshells, right? That's kind of the famous metaphor, that is not healthy for a relationship if there's not the capacity to talk openly about what is happening, and if hard conversations spiral into, like, emotion dysregulation and conflict. So, that is a really painful scenario for both partners involved. Yeah, absolutely. With relationships, I'd be curious to kind of like overlay attachment style and RSD. And attachment theory is one that like it gets critiqued for being oversimplified, but I find it a really helpful lens, even with it being, if people know like, okay, this is probably an oversimplification, I still find it really helpful and to someone who has RSD and also, anxiously attached, like, there's going to be some big emotions when they perceive like an attachment injury or where they perceive they're being criticized. And again, kind of, I'm mapping, I guess, is my word today, but mapping out what are the attachment styles. There's a really great exercise from EFT therapy. It's infinity loop. I have a link on my website, I could link it in our show notes. But it's essentially you map out, like, what happens in the aftermath of an attachment injury. Like, what story does each partner start telling? What did they start doing, right? So, some partners will retreat, some will go to work because it's like, we have to fix this. But then that activates another story, like a secondary story. So, you can map out like, okay, what happens to us in an attachment injury. I think exercises like that become really helpful because then you can understand and name the chaos without a map of like, what is happening here? It's really confusing. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad you mentioned that because I think recognizing the attachment style and the pattern and then being able to, again, step back when you're not activated and look at it, and say, okay, now I get a sense of like, what's happening in these moments because what you don't want to do, like you said, it's not a healthy partnership if you're walking on eggshells if you feel like you can't have communication, and it's very different experiences on either side, so each partner is experiencing this painfully but very differently, too. MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Like, I think ideally the RSD could almost be externalized and be talked about as like a thing in the relationship, right? Like, okay, we just hit an RSD wall, or like, we just triggered the RSD. I love externalizing both and like individual techniques, I do it all the time. Like with, oh, my mind is doing this thing, right. That's it. I'm externalizing it. I'm making it less connected to me. I'm saving the relationships when we can externalize it and it's like, let's collaboratively solve the struggle we're experiencing around this RSD trigger versus you versus me. That really changes the conversation. PATRICK CASALE: It feels much more like teamwork at that point in time. And going back to your detective analogy before, like, you're both putting on that detective hat of like, how can we solve this together? Instead of you're injuring me versus I'm experiencing our relationship this way. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that makes such a big difference when partners can do that, like stand side by side, look at the dynamic together versus… I see that a lot, so much like accusations, and kind of like, I mean, our narcissism episode just came out. Like, you are a narcissist, or you're gaslighting me. Like these huge words get thrown out, or can get thrown out when we're looking at the other person as the problem versus looking at the dynamic, or the issue, or the like the process, content versus process. Like, that's a communication thing of when we're locked in the content, which we typically are during in RSD trigger. That means we're locked in like, the thing we're talking about. Process is kind of like bird's eye view, like what is actually happening here relationally? You can get unhooked from the content enough to have some process conversation, some process reflection, that is so helpful in relationships. PATRICK CASALE: Absolutely, 100%. And I think that's also a good transition point into professional relationships. Like, because those things happen in the workplace, too. And it can happen with your co-workers, it can happen from a employee/employer standpoint, and the implications can be pretty huge, like you said, not trying to go for that promotion that you wanted, not talking out in staff meetings because you're going to feel rejected for how you come across. There are so many ways that this can show up in the workplace, too. MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's going to depend like, so I talked about, well, Dotson talks about three ways people can respond to RSD, I've added a fourth one. And I have like a little matrix up of like the different ways people can typically respond to RSD. So, workplace stress is going to depend on like, what is your kind of default response? So, like, perfectionism is a really common response to RSD. Like, if I just never make a mistake, then I'm fine. No one's ever going to perceive any of this, right? It's totally illogical, except it's not because we're going to make mistakes. People pleasing, so kind of, like, I put that in under the fawn mode. Like, perpetual people pleasing, like reading, like, what does this person want from me? And a lot of people that are RSD become really good at like, kind of taking in a person, figuring out exactly who they want the person to be. I think that ties back into masking and other things. And then avoidance. So, just like, I'm going to avoid putting myself out there. I think that's the one we've talked about the most in this episode. And then the one I added is the like projector or someone who gets like fight mode when they're perceiving rejection. So, yeah, workplace, if you're a perfectionist people pleaser, with RSD in the workplace, you're going to burn out really fast. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, yeah. It's going to look like workaholism, right? And you're going to be potentially putting in extra hours that are unnecessary, you're going to be taking on additional tasks that you don't really have the capacity for or don't want to do. And you're going to be one of those employees potentially that goes above and beyond for everything. And then ultimately, it's like, fuck, I can't do this job anymore. This is not manageable for me. This is not sustainable. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And like I think you and I were probably both in that category. And I think that then resentment can come in. So, I would say it's like a more low-simmer chronic RSD response, right? Because there's this illusion of I can, yeah, evade rejection if I just work harder. But then the resentment that builds up, the burnout that that builds up. Absolutely, yeah. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. And then it leads to either termination or leads to quitting a job that you may have been able to navigate or find some accommodation for and it can be really challenging. I think that if we're looking at the whole person, this is so impactful interpersonally, in relationships, in employment places, employment places, places of employment, [INDISCERNIBLE 00:39:39] but it's so impactful. So, knowing the triggers, like you said, implementing some of these soothing strategies for your nervous system, being able to have these conversations, being able to externalize. I think there are a lot of good strategies that you're naming and mentioning right now. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And then also for the avoiders, right? Like getting out of the avoidance loop, which essentially, a lot of anxiety-based treatments are all about targeting avoidance because avoidance feeds anxiety. So, I would add that tool for the avoiders, and especially, with the workplace. Like, avoiders are probably going to be underemployed, they're not going to be going up for that promotion, they're not going to be putting themselves out there. And so really targeting avoidance, using exposure. Gosh, it's going to be a whole other episode. Actually, I feel some guilt about this because I think I used to be one of the voices that said this, and I'm now seeing it on social media a lot. Like, exposure therapy doesn't work for autistic people. Exposure therapy doesn't work for sensory habituation. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work for PTSD triggers, for anxiety. So, we have to get out of this, I think it's a dangerous mindset to say exposure therapy doesn't work for autistic people. When you're in an anxious-driven avoidance loop, you absolutely have to do exposure. Like, it can be natural, it should be led by you. So, for that person exposure and addressing the anxiety would be a really important part of the toolkit. PATRICK CASALE: Glad you name that. I think that's a really good tip and also good framework for the recognition that in some instances certain techniques and strategies are useful, like we said before, despite not being useful as like a blanket statement or across the board. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I'm starting to become more gentle in my language use. Like, I think I used to be like, "This kind of therapy is bad." Like, I used to say, like, "CBT is bad for autistic people." I'm now more around like things need to be adapted, right? So, you need to adapt exposure therapy when you do it for an autistic person, 1,000%. If you're using CBT, you should adapt it and consider the marginalized experiences. So, I'm kind of like, yeah, I'm changing my narrative a little bit and how I talk about it. I'm softening it to talk more about adapting and less about what's good and what's bad. PATRICK CASALE: I think it's also important to like, differentiate between taking one simple tool, or technique, or strategy from something, opposed to saying like, okay, CBT as a whole, we don't like it. But this one technique really is useful if we adapt it in a neurodivergent affirmative way. And I think that you could do that with a lot of different therapeutic interventions and modalities. MEGAN NEFF: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. PATRICK CASALE: Usually, three yeahs in a row from you is like, all right, let's transition out. So, is that where we're at? MEGAN NEFF: I mean, I don't know how long we've been recording. You're right. Like, you said this before we started recording because we were both feeling really lousy. And I was like, "I don't know if this will be a good episode." You were like, "Usually when we start talking it like works." I feel like I could talk longer. But I also feel like I could be done. I don't know, what do you feel? PATRICK CASALE: I feel the same way. I think we've been recording now for about 45 minutes so- MEGAN NEFF: Okay, good length. PATRICK CASALE: Good length of time. And I think it's a good foundational episode to then build off of for different perspectives. I think we can also have people on here to talk about their own RSD experiences, and how it shows up, and how they work through it, or try to manage, and support themselves. So, I think we can go a lot of directions with this. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. And I mean, I love, we should definitely do a like answer questions follow up because I think people have a lot of questions around this topic. And so we could do that. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, will say I didn't think about even asking for questions for the episode until like 10 minutes before we started recording. We got like six questions immediately. So, I think that with another day or two, we could compile all that and we can address that the next time we record. MEGAN NEFF: Let's do that. PATRICK CASALE: Cool. Well, for those of you who don't know, Megan, and I haven't recorded in like three and a half weeks because I've been gone and I just appreciate being able to fall back into this even though we feel crappy, like connected in that way. So, just want to thank you for that. What was I going to say? MEGAN NEFF: I think episodes are out every Friday on all major platforms, Spotify, Apple… PATRICK CASALE: What Megan just said, new episodes are out every single Friday. If you have topic requests, if you have questions you want answered, please email our Gmail address that's attached to our Instagram, which is divergentconversationspodcast@gmail.com. We do read those. We don't always respond because we just don't always have the capacity or the spoons to do so. And new episodes are out every single Friday on all major platforms and YouTube. And Megan has a 170-page workbook on RSD that you can purchase from her website at neurodivergentinsights.com. And that will be linked in the show notes as well. Cool. All right, goodbye.

This episode is incredibly personal and special to me. @snowyrodeo sits down with me at The Meridian coffee shop in Buda to discuss lucid dreams, connecting with our spiritual guides, meditation for beginners and so much more. I opened up the show with Tori - that part is a hot beautiful mess. Please enjoy and know you have my heart. Be sure to follow @snowyrodeo on IG and send her a little dm to say hi.

Dave and Ethan interview live-streamer, musician, and improv ventriloquist Captain Jen E! Joined by her puppets aka 'people of fabric,' she regularly streams on TikTok and Twitch under the name @CaptainJen_E, where she covers everything from rock to rap and hip hop to Weird Al's versatile catalogue!

Welcome to another episode of The Hormone Prescription Podcast, where we explore the complex world of hormones and aging. In this episode, our host and hormone expert [Name] chats with bestselling author and renowned chiropractor, Dr. Ellen Cutler, about the power of enzyme therapy for healing, detoxification, and longevity.  About Dr. Ellen Cutler    Dr. Cutler is an internationally recognized teacher, public speaker, and media spokesperson. She specializes in the use of desensitization, gentle detoxification, and enzyme and nutritional therapies for chronic conditions. Her revolutionary healing technique, the Ellen Cutler Method (ECM), has helped countless people find relief when conventional medical methods have failed.  Episode Highlights:    1. Desensitization to Food Sensitivities: Dr. Cutler discusses the role of enzyme therapy in addressing food sensitivities, improving gut health, and reducing overall inflammation.   2. Myths Debunked: Dr. Cutler clears up some misconceptions about enzyme therapy.   3. Enzyme Therapy for Women in Midlife and Beyond: Our guest shares stories of how women experienced significant improvements in their health, energy levels, and overall well-being by incorporating enzyme therapy into their daily routines.   4. Practical Advice on Incorporating Enzyme Therapy: Dr. Cutler offers suggestions on how to incorporate enzyme therapy into your daily routine, including the best types of enzymes to take and when to take them.    Don't miss this eye-opening discussion with Dr. Ellen Cutler on the potential benefits of enzyme therapy for women in midlife and beyond. Tune in to The Hormone Prescription Podcast to learn more about this fascinating approach to healing, detoxification, and longevity.   Speaker 1 (00:00:00): Be patient with yourself. Nothing in Nature Blooms all year. Stay tuned as I talk with two of my health coaches, coach Vic and Coach Katrina, about achieving hormone bliss through midlife and metabolism, rescue and mastery. Speaker 2 (00:00:17): So the big question is, how do women over 40 like us, keep weight off, have great energy, balance our hormones and our moods, feel sexy and confident, and master midlife? If you're like most of us, you are not getting the answers you need and remain confused and pretty hopeless to ever feel like yourself Again. As an OB GYN I had to discover for myself the truth about what creates a rock solid metabolism, lasting weight loss, and supercharged energy after 40, in order to lose a hundred pounds and fix my fatigue. Now I'm on a mission. This podcast is designed to share the natural tools you need for impactful results and to give you clarity on the answers to your midlife metabolism challenges. Join me for tangible, natural strategies to crush the hormone imbalances you are facing and help you get unstuck from the sidelines of life. My name is Dr. Kyrin Dunston. Welcome to the Hormone Prescription Podcast. Speaker 1 (00:01:10): Hi everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hormone Prescription with Dr. Kieran. Thank you so much for joining me today as we dive in with two of my health coaches, coach Katrina and Coach Victoria, and talk about achieving hormone bliss through midlife metabolism, rescue and mastery. These are the names of some of our programs that we've developed over the past three years that many women have gone through and gotten out of hormonal poverty into hormonal prosperity. So it really is the pathway that will lead you to where you wanna be after 40. As a woman with your health. If you're experiencing hormonal poverty, the symptoms of midlife, metabolic mayhem, those are the 60 plus symptoms that can start affecting women as young as in their thirties, sometimes even in their twenties. Then this is the show for you. Those symptoms can include not only weight gain, but also fatigue, hair loss, lack of libido, depression, anxiety, poor cognitive functioning, digestive issues, immune system issues, getting sick more often, autoimmune disease. Speaker 1 (00:02:18): The list goes on and on and on. You might not be aware that the health problems that you're having all have a hormonal component to them, and this is why women's health can start to falter and fail. Starting at 40 and beyond. There's always a hormonal component to every diagnosis you have to every disorder you have to every disease you have, no matter what system it's in, dermatological, gynecological, gastrointestinal, psychological, it go, the list goes on. There's always a hormonal component. And so getting out of hormonal poverty and getting to hormonal prosperity really is essential to reversing any symptom you have to heal any disease you have and also to prolonging your life. Because unfortunately studies show that when we're in hormonal poverty, our lifespan is shortened, and that when we get out of hormonal poverty into hormonal prosperity, our lifespan is actually longer. We have less disease, fewer medications, lower weight, better energy, all the things that you want for your life. Speaker 1 (00:03:25): So is that something you want? Hormonal prosperity? Yes, we want hormonal prosperity Now. So we're gonna dive into this episode with my two coaches. They're both women over 40. They've had their own health journeys that they're gonna share with you, and they really are experts. I love working with women who are passionate about helping other women to achieve what's possible for them with their health and their lives. And these women definitely exemplify that. So I think you're really gonna like this episode. We're gonna dive into that quote that I shared with you at the beginning about being patient with yourself. Nothing in nature Blooms all year. That's from Coach Vic. She is an avid gardener. You gotta see pictures of her garden. She makes the most beautiful vegetables I have ever seen. I don't have a green thumb. I say I have a paw for a thumb 'cause I really resonate with animals and I do really well with them, but plants not so much. Speaker 1 (00:04:21): But Coach Vick has that covered. So we're gonna talk about how to be patient with yourself and then we're gonna talk with Coach Katrina. She has this wonderful quote that we're gonna talk about. Stop wasting time, like someone is making more of it if you put everything off as if you have forever to do it. I've been guilty of that too. We all have. But you know, time is our most valuable resource 'because it's the only thing that gives us time on this planet is time. And what gives us that time is our health. When our health runs out, our time runs out. So don't waste your time, make the most of it, and that means make your health the most. So we're gonna dive into it. I'll tell you a little bit about Vic and Katrina and then we'll get started. So Katrina Gallagher is a group fitness instructor instructor in Morgantown, West Virginia. Speaker 1 (00:05:13): She has health coaching certification through the Institute for Integrative Nutrition, and she's finishing up her health coaching certification through functional diagnostic nutrition. She is a true lover of all things health and wellness. She will go down the rabbit hole on any given topic and then can tell you all about it. And she has an emphasis on biohacking and anti-aging. And Victoria Gale, coach Vic is a classical naturopathic physician with additional certification as a functional diagnostic nutrition practitioner, holistic cancer coach, certified bioenergetics practitioner, and soon to be national board certified reflexology reflexologist. She loves natural health and appreciates learning how to live in balance with the cycles of nature and the world around us. And we didn't get into this episode about bioenergetics, but that is a topic that's essential to your hormones that we'll probably cover in future episodes. So stay tuned for that. But please help me welcome Coach Vic and Coach Katrina to the show. Hello. Speaker 3 (00:06:16): Hi. Thanks so much for having us. Speaker 1 (00:06:18): I'm so excited to have you guys on. We've all known each other now for a few years. Gosh, I think back from the first stop, the Menopause Men's Summit probably, and we've worked with so many women and developed so many programs, Katrina's been through them and now is one of our coaches and more that we're working on to help women. And I think it's great for everyone to hear your stories because we're all over 40. We're all passionate about health. We're all women. We know firsthand what it's to deal with the midlife metabolic mayhem that occurs over 40 and to work through it and master it. And I think women need hope right now. A, I hear a lot of women are really suffering. They're really lost. They don't know which way to turn, and they don't even think it's possible. And they see me and they think, oh yeah, Karen, she's a doctor. Of course she can get that straight, but that's not true. It's possible for really every woman. So I wanted to start, I've already talked about your expertise in bios, but maybe if you could just start with your story of how you came to do the work that you do with women over 40 and why you're so passionate about it. Do you wanna start, Vic? Speaker 3 (00:07:41): Sure. So I got into natural health after a health episode. In my twenties. I developed asthma and I had it so bad that I was using inhalers and breathing machines and all kinds of stuff, hours and hours a day and nothing was working. And at the time I just thought, oh my God, this can't be my life. And my first profession is in performing arts. And so I was getting ready to do a performance and my name was called. And right before, right after my name was called, I started having an asthma attack . And so of course that was panic stricken. I was writing and I just thought, oh my God. And luckily I was able to swap places with someone and I ran down the hallway backstage and there was a pot of black coffee. And I had learned after many years of asthma attacks, if I drank black coffee and bent over, I could control or stop my asthma attacks. Speaker 3 (00:08:39): And so after that happened, I was like, okay, I can't live like this, not knowing what's gonna happen. And so a chance read in a health food store that someone had cured their asthma by juicing, just let me think. Well, I can't, it's not gonna hurt. So I went and bought a juicer and fruit and vegetables and all that and I started juicing. And after about two weeks of doing it with no plan, no nothing, I was just doing it. I noticed that my breathing started to get better and I was like, whoa, there's something to this. And so I juiced for the next year and a half or so, but I also started unpacking some emotions that I had been hanging onto some grief, that kind of stuff. And after about a year and a half, I got up one day and I just knew it was over. Speaker 3 (00:09:22): And I can't explain how I knew that, but I knew it was. And I packed up all my inhalers, breathing machines and threw them all in the garbage and never had another asthma attack. And that was 25 years ago now. And so after that happened, I was like, I need to really unpack what happened, what, what happened here. And at the time I had to kind of put it on the shelf because family, whatever. But then once the kids are out of the house and you kind of have some time on your own, I decided I need to look into a natural health kinda school. And so I looked for what's in our areas or whatnot. At the time we had two brick and mortar naturopathic schools here in the state. I'm in Michigan. And so I went to one of those schools and then unpacked and started to learn why that worked for me and what happened. Speaker 3 (00:10:12): And then I decided, well, if I can't help myself, I need to be able to help other people do what I did. And from that point, I started my brand and started working with folks. And the bulk of my practice is women. I do see both men and women. But I have to say after I've met you, Karen, and working with the institute, it's just women in midlife, I've kind of discovered that's my favorite group of people to work with. Not just because it's me, but . Not just because it's us, but it's just a really dynamic group of untapped, energetic potential. When we can really refocus and get women on their right path, we can change the world. And so there's just so many women that need that help and support. And so that's the primary set of what I do every day. And because I have naturopathic training, I'm always drawn to the natural sort of means of doing things that follow the path of nature. 'cause Nature actually shows everything that we need to do. We've just gotta kind of follow its paths and trends and then we'll find that our health will reset itself. And so that's kind of how I've found myself in this space where I am now. Speaker 1 (00:11:26): Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I love working with women. People say, well, don't you miss delivering babies? And I say, well, it was great at the time. But working with women, we give life, but we also are the sustainers of life on this planet. And if you help a woman, you help the whole, everyone on the planet, you help her family, you help her friends, she's gonna teach everyone else. And so I love doing what I do now because it's, I, I, I'll say it, and I know some people think it is complicated to deliver a baby, but it's not that complicated. And there are many wonderful midwives and doctors who do it wonderfully and brilliantly. But not everyone can help a woman come back to herself and come back to her vitality at midlife. There really aren't that many of us. And that's why I think it's so vital, the work that we do. Speaker 1 (00:12:19): And Katrina, what got you into this type of work? Well, I just kind of believe that you should just go where the world takes you, , and this is where the world has taken me. . I mean, I really, it was not, I didn't set out the, didn't set out to do this. I'm a lawyer by training. I practiced law for several years. And then, but I've always had an interest in health and wellness because when I was in elementary school, my dad had his first heart attack. He was 36, and then continued to have heart problems throughout the rest of my childhood. And then when I was 18, he had a heart transplant and he was 55 when he died. So that was very, maybe because when he had that first heart attack, I was at such a young age, it made such an impression on me. Speaker 1 (00:13:07): But I remember being like young, I don't remember how old I was, maybe eight or nine. And I remember thinking, I, I remember hearing the doctor tell my mom, there is a hereditary aspect to heart disease and chances are really good that one of your four children is gonna have problems. And I remember thinking, it's not gonna be me. It is not gonna be me. And I didn't know at the time what that meant, what I needed to do to keep it from being me. But I knew it wasn't gonna be me . And so, I started really in college kind of exploring. And of course when I was in college, that was when we were getting all the bad information about fat is evil and sugar is fine. And so probably did myself some harm, more harm than good back then, following all those recommendations. Speaker 1 (00:13:51): But I kind of kept up with it. And then I went to college, went to law school, just sort of dabbled it, dabbled in it really. And then when my kids were older and I had more time to kind of really explore, I really dove in and started just reading everything I could read about health and wellness and about heart health and doing the right things to make sure I wasn't the one of the four of us that ended up with heart problems. And then I guess when I decided to get my health coaching certification, I was approaching that premenopausal phase of my life. And so my own interest went there because that's where I was. And I think because I am, I am 54 now, I've been doing this now for several years. I think that midlife woman, I think they're just attracted to me. Speaker 1 (00:14:43): I think it's because I'm a group fitness instructor. And so I have, I work with a population of people who are already interested in fitness. Mm-Hmm. . And I will help anybody who wants my help. And I love working with everybody. But those midlife women seem to be attracted to me, I think because they see me, they, and they're like, okay, she can do it. She is healthy and she's fit. And so mm-hmm . So why can't I do that? And so it's sort of just happened that way. But I love it because I can share my own experiences and it's very, very, the stories I hear from them are very relatable. And so that's where I found myself and I really enjoy it. And I really, I will say, Karen, that joining your program when I did saved me a lot of heartache because I was perimenopausal when I started with you. Speaker 1 (00:15:31): And the journey has been relatively easy for me, , because I found you and the information that I found. And so as I see other women starting in like, oh, let me jump in and help you, let me do for you what Kieran did for me. Let me lead you to care. Let me get you in this so that you don't have to suffer either . So yeah. So it's a great midlife. Women are very motivated to feel better. Yes. And so it's very motivating. It's a very motivated population. And that's also nice. Yeah, it is. So thank you so much for, for sharing that. And I'm thinking as you're saying that we made it easier. And here you are a fitness instructor and I know a lot of people at midlife women look around and say, well, what am I not doing? What do I need to do to feel better? Speaker 1 (00:16:18): And fitness and going to the gym, joining fitness programs is something that people do. But I do find that eventually most people look around and say, well, this isn't all because I just don't feel like myself anymore. And you have this unique perspective where you actually went through the programs that Victoria and I had created. So what were some of the most surprising things to you that you learned? Like going through the midlife metabolism, rescue and mastery programs, what are some things that stick out as these big light bulbs? Wow, I had no idea that this was so important or that this worked like this or other things. Well, I was already, my fitness was fine. And really my food was already pretty on key. Like I was already doing most of that stuff. So most of that was not new to me and was not surprising to me. Speaker 1 (00:17:11): But we started off with the HRV, the HRV lesson, which I had no, no idea about . So that was all, I was like, wait, what is this new thing that could, that is like controlling my health , you know? So, my HRV was not fantastic. And so that, that was a whole new world to me, understanding the nervous system and regulating that and that. So that was big for me. I did not have an understanding at all of, of like , cortisol was new to me. I knew what it was, but I had no idea how important it was and what a controlling factor it is with regard to all of the other hormones. So that really stood out to me. The whole really, like sleep stress reduction portion was just not anything I had really delved into before. And that was all very important for me because my, I'm a great sleeper, but I was not sleeping enough. Speaker 1 (00:18:08): And I, at the time, had no idea how much damage that was probably doing to me and how much it was holding me back from feeling my best. So those things I would say. And then I knew the importance of gut health and I knew the basics, but that was just, I was just in heaven through all of that, learning all of the stuff about the gut stuff, the GI map was fascinating to me. And learning about how all of that works and how, and so that was a whole new world to me as well. So there was a lot, I mean, I went into it feeling like, okay, I know some things and that's good. And I was glad I knew the things I did, but there was a lot that I didn't know. And so there were several things during the course that I was just like, oh, what? I had no idea Speaker 3 (00:18:51): what, yeah, yeah. I would, I would, I would agree with that, that the GI map, a lot of the member, I remember a lot of the ladies early on when their GI map would show up and we would be in our one-on-one coach consult, they would go on and on about, oh my gosh, how is this test going on that no one knows about, but it says so much about my health and my hormones and how is this the first time I'm coming across this? And I would say gut health was something they really were going on and on about not understanding how much it was affecting every other aspect of their health. And they loved being able to address it botanically. 'cause A lot of what you can use to address gut health is entirely botanicals. You'd often don't need pharmaceutical type products to deal with the gut. Speaker 3 (00:19:37): And so they loved that. And I would second that. That's one. And the other aspect, I know that many of them had undervalued as far as being related to their health is their emotional state and traumas and things that they were hanging onto. And they really had no idea how it was slowly gnawing away at their health, but was this sort of stealth killer of their health. And they really undervalued it. 'cause I think so often we just kind of say, oh yeah, I had this happen in my past. It's no big deal. It can't still be affecting me now. And that's actually the entire opposite, wrong way to think of it. Because those traumas and things that we've held onto and have in us are little time bombs waiting to explode. And boy, when they do in midlife, when everything else is going on in our lives, it becomes a disaster for us as midlife women. And so I would say I, one thing I really appreciate, especially about this program and Kieran especially, you're one of the few FMDs that I've really run across who will delve into that aspect of health, the emotional, spiritual, psychological aspect of our health. Speaker 1 (00:20:47): 'Cause It's huge. It is. And I just wanna mention for anyone listening, HRV is heart rate variability. In case you didn't know. Yes. Thank you for saying that. It really is the missing piece. I mean, mainstream medicine for sure misses that piece, but most functional medicine misses it too. Nobody wants to go into the emotional stuff, . And I've had to learn these things out of necessity because I had a, let's say, less than nurturing childhood. They caught up with me at midlife. So I've had to learn about all these things and learn how to unpack them. But it's almost more than that, and this is why I'm creating it. If you're a regular listener to the podcast, you're gonna wanna listen to the next few episodes. 'cause I'm making a few episodes for you on psychoneuroendocrinology, which is a fancy way of saying how your thoughts and feelings affect your nervous system and your hormones. Speaker 1 (00:21:40): 'Cause They're all related. And it's actually a field in medicine, psychoneuroendocrinology and also your energetic blueprint. We're gonna be going into that 'cause your energetic design goes into that too. But all of these are less than nurturing or overwhelming small T or big T traumas that we have as children where it can be traumatic to a child, whatever their needs or wants are not met, that can be trauma that has to go somewhere. It has, that's energy. Emotions are energy in motion. And so if that energy is not discharged by a nurturing parent who can help you process it and feel it and understand it, which is most of the people who raised us, they don't because they don't know how to do it. It wasn't a common skill for people. 'cause They were worried about survival then these emotions and this energy has to go somewhere. Speaker 1 (00:22:37): So it goes into our fascia, into our nervous system. And it takes a lot of energy for the body to hold down those encapsulated packets of traumatic energy. And so this is one of the reasons why some women actually have a worst time at perimenopause, menopause at midlife is because they haven't unpacked all of these bigger little T traumas. And their cortisol has been struggling since they were five years old to keep a lid on this . And so anyway, it's a big conversation, but I'm creating a whole new program to dive into that even more deeply. Because I find that even though we incorporate that into the program and we talk a lot about it, it really, people need full guidance. Like, how do I do this work? So I'm making a whole program on that. Anything else you guys wanna say about that before we change topics though? I think it's so important. Yeah. I just will say in my own health coaching practice, I don't think I've ever, my bachelor's degree is in psychology and I don't think I've ever had a client that I didn't feel like I used my psych degree almost more than I used my, my, my health coaching certifications. , like they're, everybody has emotional issues that they haven't dealt with and mostly don't know how to deal with. And so I do what I can. I refer people, encourage people often to seek professional help Speaker 1 (00:24:08): In doing those things because it becomes obvious if you do this very much at all, how much those issues hold people back from reaching their full potential. Speaker 3 (00:24:18): Absolutely. I 100%, I 100% agree with that. And that's always an aspect of everything that I have when I'm working with my people. I mean, we certainly go through the testing and we explain, we come up with lifestyle recommendations, whatever. But there's always a point where the rubber has to meet the road where I'm talking to the clients and I'm like, okay, there's more here you're gonna need to unpack and here's some resources. I have a somatic therapist on staff here. And so she's been very helpful to direct people to. But there's always a point in time where the rubber meets the road and that intersection of mind, body, spirit becomes front and center. And it's something that has to be addressed. And emotions are powerful. They're the energetics that keep us moving day to day. And so they have to be sort of channeled and funneled in a way that makes life sustainable and healthy for us. Speaker 3 (00:25:14): And otherwise they become little time bombs. And I appreciate so much some of the specifics of the changes with what happens with women in midlife. And so some of the importance of needing to exercise and the changes with estrogen and all these things that when there's an emotional aspect attached to those things, it can really throw you way off. And so I've appreciated the program really digging down into some of those specifics. Because I know from my training and some of the other sorts of stuff I've learned over the years, a lot of the data, the research is on men or a healthy person in their twenties. There's never anything specifically tailored for midlife women. And I so appreciated some of the experts and things that you brought whose sole focus is women in midlife. Because you suddenly discover, oh wait a minute, there's a little bit of calibration that has to be different for the midlife women. There has to be some different thoughts. There has to be a little bit of a different approach. And I think that's been really, that's been game changing for me just to really Mm-Hmm. focus in on that. Speaker 1 (00:26:24): I always say, when I went through my mainstream education and med school and OB GYN residency, we were basically taught that women are just littler men with an accessory pack that allows special organs and hormones that allows us to really reduce life. And then when I got further along and had my own health crisis and had to sort that out and discovered what the work I do now, I discovered that nothing could be further from the truth. We are foundationally different. Our brains are structured differently. Our psyches, our nervous systems, like we just don't, we are not little men in any way, shape or form. But I love what you mentioned. One of the things that I love about the way we set up the programs is doing it in a group format. And I know that some people are a little hesitant at first 'cause they're used to that one-on-one, even though it's a five or seven minute, just write a prescription or you need a surgery visit. Speaker 1 (00:27:20): But that's what we've been socialized to believe is healthcare. And so they go in groups, I'm gonna be talking about my personal stuff in a group. And then what do you guys find as people's opinion at the end about that? They love it, right? Yeah. Oh, I was speaking for myself and for the ladies Oh yeah. That I went through it with and have seen go through it since the group was key. I think we got a lot of value from listening to each other, learning from each other's questions, the support that comes with knowing that there are other women out there that are going through what you're going through and that are, that you're kind of learning to fix it together. Yeah. I love the group setting. I don't, I, I have never heard anybody ever say a negative thing about, there's some apprehension in the beginning sometimes with people like, oh, but then once the comfort level increases a little bit, everybody's thrilled that there's that. It's in a group setting. Speaker 3 (00:28:15): Absolutely. And definitely in private consults, one-on-one, when we would meet with the folks outside of the group setting, they would definitely say, oh, I didn't really wanna share that. I haven't been sleeping. Or My HRV numbers were so terrible. But they suddenly discovered that there's comfort in being vulnerable and having another group of women do having the same kind of things happen, if not worse. There's a comfortability in sharing that. And I'm a firm believer that, I mean, we all need community, but I believe women especially need women only sort of supportive groups in life as well as in any kind of a healing situation. I believe we're just, I believe we're wired that way truthfully. And I've told friends many mm-Hmm. over the years. I've, I've told people that my girlfriend therapy group has gotten me through more things than any sort of, it's getting together with my girlfriends and parsing things out has been a huge piece for me. Speaker 3 (00:29:19): And I think if we're, if we see how good it is, when we feel great, especially when we're not feeling so great, it doubles the need to have that group of other supportive communities, especially women around us. And mm-Hmm. , I like to kind of relate it to nature. I mean, nothing in nature exists on its own, right? And so nature tells us we have to intercommunicate and support each other to get through day to day. And I love the data where they're looking at trees, how trees talk to each other and the roots talk to each other. Mm-Hmm. . And it's the fungus. And so that interconnection and communication is how nature exists. So why would we be any, we, why would we be any different? We're part of nature as well, right? We need that community. Speaker 1 (00:30:04): We do. And we have an epidemic of loneliness, and I'm trying to remember the exact numbers, but I think people over 50, it's like people say that they have some less than one close friend and they spend large swaths of time alone and they don't have the support systems. Because we used to live in communities where we were very connected to nature and very connected to each other. But now we live in cities and apartments with TVs and electronic devices. And people are on that thinking they're connected, but they're not. Right. So I think it is vital connection that is vital to health. And the statistics on loneliness are that it's worse than smoking for your health. So you may think, oh, I'm doing great 'cause I don't smoke. But if you're experiencing loneliness and you're not having human connection, 'cause there's certain kind of energetic benefits that we get from being, having eye contact and being in close proximity and having physical touch and sexual touch and all these things. Speaker 1 (00:31:04): If you're not having that, it could be like you're smoking two packs a day of cigarettes. So that's one thing I love about the groups. I think people got that oxytocin hit from having that connection and that support and being seen and being heard and being understood. They're going to their doctor's office being told There's nothing wrong with you. It's normal not to wanna have sex and have poor sex and poor sleep at your age. Now it's not right. And so they can come here and get affirmed for all the midlife, metabolic, mayhem, craziness that we're all experiencing. I wanted to ask you guys, how important do you think the testing is? Because I know some programs are like, oh, we just created this program to address your hormones and your gut and you're all gonna take these supplements and you're all gonna eat like this and you're all gonna do these things. Speaker 1 (00:31:55): And we don't do any tests. So how important are the tests? I wildly important , I mean . Yeah. Yeah. I mean, because you can, it's funny 'cause I always say at the end of the day, it no matter what issues you're having, to some extent the protocol to fix it is the same. Right? We all should be sleeping well. We all should be eating good, clean, organic whole foods. We all should be none of, we shouldn't be drinking alcohol. We shouldn't, like, there are some things that are gonna go across the board that are true for everyone. But the testing in my mind is super important, especially when it comes to the supplementation aspect of any wellness protocol because mm-Hmm. , you don't know what to take if you, you don't know exactly what's wrong, . So I can know my, I can feel that my hormones are outta whack. Speaker 1 (00:32:44): But if I don't do a Dutch test and know exactly if my estrogen is high or low or my progesterone is high or low, what my testosterone is doing, how do I know what to take? How do I know what to supplement with? How do I know how much? If you don't have the GI map and you don't know that you've got a parasite or you don't know that you're, that you've got whatever is high or low, then you don't know if you, should I be taking probiotics? Should I be taking digestive enzymes? Should I be doing a protocol to get rid of candida? Do I have high chance? Do like, so know how exactly to attack. To me, I'm a huge, powerful person. I want to know everything. I wanna know all the things. The more information I have, the more I can, the better decisions I can make about how to go about improving a situation. Speaker 1 (00:33:30): So the tests for me personally, or that's knowledge, give me input. All the information I want. But I've seen it too with our clients and they love those tests. They feel like finally there's something that validates the way they've been feeling. Yeah. There's clinical correlation to, oh my gosh, this no wonder I felt this way. And all of a sudden they don't feel crazy anymore. And Right. It just gives them a, a, a resource to say, okay, here it is in black and white . You're not crazy. You're not crazy. Exactly. Yeah. And then for me it was also like showing my husband, see I'm not crazy. . I told you . Speaker 1 (00:34:16): Yes. The validation is huge. Yeah. But it's funny, I just was recently interviewed by a woman, a journalist. And so, after the interview, she wanted to talk about her functional issues. Her 'cause she's at midlife. So everyone hears you deal with midlife metabolic mayhem. Lemme tell you my issues, let's talk about it. So I did. And she said that she had been trying the throw against the wall and seeing what sticks method that wasn't working. And everyone in her office was trying that. And then when some one of them would learn about some other protocol, they would share it. And then some of them would complain, this is too much work. Why is this so much work? and I went on this whole rant with her about, we don't complain about how much work our careers work to get the master's and take the SATs and apply to university and go to university. Speaker 1 (00:35:13): I mean, it's chaos, right? To, to go through your education and get your training and get your certifications and maintain your certifications and get your jobs and maintain your jobs. And nobody complains about how much work it is, right? 'cause You get the payoff. But then when it comes to our health, we've been socialized to believe that all we're supposed to do is shovel some calories in our mouth every day, lay horizontal for a few hours and it should be plug and play. We go to the doctor if we have a problem, they write us a script or do a surgery. And that's all we should have to input into our most valuable asset, our bodies, which is what the only thing that gives us time on this planet. And then we complain that it's too much work. So I know some people hear, oh, I gotta do a course and I gotta do testing. And oh, this is so much work. And I just like to have that reality check. But it was funny because after I talked to her, the journalist, she was like, I never thought about it. Like , I put no investment into my health. And that's why I don't, I think it's too much work. 'cause I don't, I've been trained that way. But what about the value of investing in your health? Speaker 3 (00:36:18): One of the things I remember early on when the first ladies would start the program and you would have the classes and you would talk about, we would come up with structured lifestyle recommendations to do. And so one of them was initially on 30 minutes every day of walking or taking a look at your H RV or whatever. And ever, and I remember clearly, and I won't mention any names, but there was a mm-Hmm. lady early on in the program who told us directly, she did not have 15 to 20 minutes to look at her hrv. And I re at the end of the program, of course we all went crazy and whatnot. And she went through the program and suddenly learned the value of that self investment. And, and by the end of the program, I remember her saying, oh my gosh, I feel so embarrassed and foolish that I thought that I didn't have the time. Speaker 3 (00:37:11): And now it's become, if I don't have that's, you know, the end of the world, I have to have that self investment time. I mean, if there's anything you're going to put time or investment into, it should be yourself and as many hours and as much money, whatever it takes, we have to put that time into ourselves. But I find that commonly with a lot of my midlife women, they tell me, oh, I don't have 30 minutes to walk. I don't have 15, 20 minutes. And it's really something because there's something to that that you'll put time into everything else but not yourself. And getting people to care and love about themselves, that's a piece of this. And that's what I, I do especially like about this program. And what I have to find with my client base as well, is we almost have to teach women to love ourselves again. And to really put ourselves first. I mean, who else should we put first? Mm-Hmm. . I mean, yes, we love our children, we love our husbands, we love whatever, but that first love has to be self-love. And that's a piece that I think midlife women have to really sit on and we have to really work with them on that. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:38:21): What is up with that? Because, and we'd say, I don't have the time or I don't have the money that what we're, that's code for. I don't see the value in that thing or in myself. Speaker 3 (00:38:31): Right? Speaker 1 (00:38:32): So what is up with that? With us? Us? What are your thoughts, guys? I don't know. I think that we're just, I think that we're wired to be caretakers and I think that we put other people first. I mean, I think if you're a mother then you're just wired that your children are gonna come first. But I also think that we have, I think a lot of us waste a lot more time than we realize we waste. Mm-Hmm. Speaker 3 (00:38:57): , Speaker 1 (00:38:58): I think we have become a pretty inefficient society. And I don't say that judgmentally because I'm guilty of it. So I mean, I'm right there with you. I do. But you know, and I realized that, I realized that for myself recently when I did do 75 hard, I don't know if you all are familiar with 75 hard, but there are requirements. And one of the requirements is that you have to work out twice a day. And everybody going into the program is, I don't have, I can't work out twice a day for 40 for at least 45 minutes each workout. So it's, and it's like, how am I gonna make time for this? And you do it, you do the program for 75 and there are other things you have to do as well. Mm-Hmm. . But you, I realized for myself during that time how much like I was able to do that. And so the things that I lost were not important things . Okay. Like, so I think we, Speaker 3 (00:39:46): I think we've kind of, Speaker 1 (00:39:47): I think we've kind of forgotten how to prioritize our time as well. I think if women take a really good hard look at what their day is filled with, there are things that maybe in their minds feel necessary that aren't really necessary. So Mm-Hmm. , I do think that you're never gonna get women to not prioritize their children. That to not prioritize their family to some extent they're gonna prioritize, prioritize their jobs. But I think even within their jobs there are things that they are spending time on that aren't necessary. I think we need to learn to become better delegators. And I think we need to learn to say, you know what? That thing can wait , the world's not gonna end if that thing doesn't get done today. And so, yeah. So I think it's kind of twofold. I think we do have a tendency to take care of everybody around us first. But I also think that we're not always terribly efficient with our time. Speaker 3 (00:40:38): And that's part of the piece I think of having a loss of community. Because many things that we would get done in a day would be done by other community members. And so I think women, we've kind of, mm-hmm, Incorporated. Wait a minute, there's a thousand things to be done. I better do all thousand of them. Or life is gonna fall apart. But we've forgotten that even child rearing our earlier ancestors, it wasn't just the parents that were raising children, it was aunties, uncles, neighbors. I was raised where my neighbor would come and get me up in the morning and would do things. I mean, there's just other things that would be handled by the community. And that's where I think you're right about us having to really sit down and look at these list of things and determine that, okay, these aren't the important ones. These I need to delegate. We need to just reprioritize the need to get everything quote unquote done. We just don't need to. Speaker 1 (00:41:36): Yeah. Well and you address that in the programs we talk about breaking your day down into however many minute increments and Mm-Hmm . Mm-Hmm . Find your time. Like where is your time going? What's necessary? What's not necessary? That's a really good exercise for people who think that they don't have time to take care of them. Speaker 3 (00:41:56): Food preparation, the idea that we can't find time to prepare food has become something we've kind of fallen into as well. And I mean the meal services are great and yes, there's timeframes for things, but I mean to really take the time to prepare quality homemade food, which is a keystone for us being healthy, we have the time to do it. I mean, we aren't going out and catching animals. We aren't going out and picking stuff from the garden. We aren't doing, all we have to do is go to the grocery, you know, batch cook one day a week and put it in a freezer. Mm-Hmm. . We have the life of Riley for food preparation. So this idea that we're just too busy to prepare our food is just, is a myth we've all kind of brought into, and I'm a big advocate for having children that are old enough, be a part of food preparation and meal preparation. I just don't understand one person in a household being the only one responsible for all the meal prepping and children that are old enough should be doing some amount of meal prep. I believe. Speaker 1 (00:43:05): Absolutely. A pro tip from the episode is batch meal prep that is hands down the biggest time saver and gives you so much control over your health because what you are, what you eat. And so we go into the program, into the programs what to eat. But I started, when I first got on this journey over 10 years ago, I just sat down and started planning meals, which we never did before and planning recipes. And Sunday was shopping and cooking day and we would make mass amounts and freezer it. We got this big freezer and we always had food and then, and then it was just like a family affair 'cause we all did it together. So I think this issue of the time values, which I also do in the hormone bliss challenge, which we're gonna be running again in November, looking at where you spend your time, looking at where you spend your money, looking at your values, and are you spending your time and money in alignment with your values? And most women find that they are not. So I think I needed that reality check also. And so no shame here because we're all guilty of these. Oh for sure. Things as well. Speaker 3 (00:44:15): . Speaker 1 (00:44:15): Yeah. I'm just wondering, I wanna talk a little bit about human design because it's something that I've become interested in. In the past year we talked in the programs about your energetic blueprint where you talked about chakras. I think Vic, you even did a whole class on that, which was amazing. And people love learning about how their energetics and their body works. And then I got introduced into human design, which is a more specific science of differentiation. How each individual has a unique energetic blueprint that has to do with certain characteristics of when they were born, where they were born. It integrates many ancient teachings. And so I've had my chart done and been living in what we call my experiment for the past a year. And you guys have done your chart and I think Katrina's had her initial reading. So she isn't starting her experiment. Speaker 1 (00:45:14): You've done your chart, Vic. One thing that I learned from human design, I'll just give an example, is that my design is an emotional projector. So there are five different main types and then you have an authority by which you're supposed to make decisions. And then there are many more specifics about each person's unique blueprint that give them certain characteristics and qualities. I found that when I had my reading, it explained a lot of my personality characteristics that have always been perplexing to me and other people. Why am I always this way? Like I have this ability to kind of cut to the heart of a matter and see the truth behind things. And people have always been like, why can you see this behind the curtain? And I always wondered why can I? And it's part of my design and then also my fighting for the underdog. Speaker 1 (00:46:08): I always don't like injustice when I see it. And I'm always willing to fight for injustice, like for women at midlife. And that's part of my design. So there are a lot of insights, but the big thing was learning that I'm not a generator, which 65% of people are. So generators are the builders and the doers. And I am not, and I'm made to be a guide and lead people not to be out there digging the ditches and planting the trees, but helping people do dig ditches and plant trees better. And so that's kind of why I do what I do. So those were all very insightful and have allowed me to live more in alignment with my true nature, which actually helps balance your hormones. So if you're not living in alignment with your true nature, this is kind of where it relates to hormones. Speaker 1 (00:46:56): There are specific gates and channels that relate to specific hormones. So you can get that deep. But in general, if you're not living in alignment with your design, you are hurting your cortisol stress hormone because that's stress, it's friction if you're not operating in alignment with how you're supposed to operate. So those are the insights I got that I found hugely valuable. And we're actually adding right now a live human design class we're gonna do next week with an analyst, a whole section on human design and helping people get their charts and integrate it into balancing their hormones and healing hormonal poverty. So I'm just wondering if either of you would like to share any insights that you've had from your human design and mostly how it has helped you to live more in alignment with your true self. Well, I was absolutely fascinated and I did have a reading and the I, yeah, validating is the first word that came to mind because I am an emotional manifester. Speaker 1 (00:47:57): It just explained so much when about yeah, like you said, just so many things. It just helped me to understand myself. And I was like, oh, now it makes perfect sense. Why I, I'll never forget one time my kids were, my boys were playing baseball and their coach was a pretty young guy. And I made some comment once about how maybe I was gonna go talk to Tyler about X, Y, or Z And my boys were like, oh. They were like, oh, they, they reaction was like, oh, I was like, what? What? What? They said, you will completely freak him out if you go. And I said, why would you say that? What do you mean? And they're like, mom, you're very intimidating. And that was not a word that I would have used to describe myself. And so that kind of peaked my interest. Speaker 1 (00:48:41): And so I asked some other people, is that true? Do people find me intimidating? And I got that. I got yes, I got the answer yes a lot. And I was like, what? And literally I never really quite understood it. I never, but then when I met with Nancy and we talked about what exactly it means to be a manifester and how I have sort of an off-putting aura and that's just who I am. Like I just have a, I'm like, oh. So that's why people feel like I'm intimidating, but I never really saw myself that way. So it answered a lot of questions and it does kind of just sort of re-evaluate how you're moving through life and kind of what you're, how it helps you understand why people react to you the way that they do. And the fact that I am emotional, I've always been a follow your gut kind of person. And now I'm like, that's that, that is really super true for me. I really do need to follow my gut. If I feel a certain way, I need to, like Nancy said, even down to if you cook a meal and all of a sudden you don't feel like eating it like right don't like don't she. So, yeah, fascinating. And I feel like I'm just kind of getting started learning. So there's, I think there's mm-Hmm. a lot more to learn and I'm super excited about learning it. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 3 (00:49:59): I'm fascinated as well. I haven't had any readings done yet. I did run my chart and I only got a chance to read through one little aspect of it, but I'm a generator with emotional authority and it really just encapsulated everything I've ever done in my life. 'cause If I'm gonna start a business, I'm gonna dig in there and I'm gonna go through all the aspects of things. And it just really made sense for me. And the one thing that really stood out for me when I was kind of reading through one of the write-ups, they talked about when you have emotional authority, you kind of have to wait for a full wave of whenever you make a decision to kind of process things. And boy is that true. And the times when something has happened and I just immediately jump into it, it like, is egg in my face? , it blows up as the wrong decision. And I just, it's just something I'm understanding, especially as I'm getting older and just the maturity of kind of thinking through decisions. Mm-Hmm. , I see that it really is something that's a non-negotiable for me. I have to do that , like I cannot mince. I have to have that process. So I'm fascinated to learn more about it. And I think it's Speaker 1 (00:51:13): Really Speaker 3 (00:51:13): Interesting. I can't wait to have a reading on it. Speaker 1 (00:51:15): Yeah. And I will say, yeah, Uhhuh, go ahead. I have at times felt, since I've gotten this information, there have been times where I have felt myself more at peace with what's happening in my life because now I understand it better. So the way that it affects cortisol and the hormones makes perfect sense. Mm-Hmm. . Because there have been times I'm like, no, this is how you're designed . This is your process, it's fine. And it's given me just, it's kind of given me that level of, just take a breath, . It's all working out exactly the way it's supposed to. So definitely dovetails nicely into all of the other things. Mm-Hmm. that we're working. Yeah. Yeah. I they in a lot of the literature about it, they say it is the key to true self-love and acceptance because it is your design, just like your eye color is your eye color and , your face is your face. Speaker 1 (00:52:09): Right. If we don't accept and love ourselves exactly as we are and who we are and what we're designed to do on this planet and our personality characteristics, life is just friction. And that means cortisol problems and that means hormone problems and hormonal poverty, poor gut health and lack of health. And so to me, the more we can know ourselves, the more we can know our lab test results and what exactly is going on physiologically, biochemically inside. And the more we can know our energetics and our personality and our design, human design has a lot of information about what we're here to do. So if you're confused about your purpose and how we're here to operate and if we can surrender to the truth of all of that and be true to ourselves, life can be a much easier ride for sure. Which sounds really good to me. Speaker 1 (00:53:10): And I think at midlife is when the friction of how, because we're all really trained to live as generators and function as generators, make decisions with our brain and be the go doers. Well that's great for, I think they call 'em self projected generators. So the ones that are supposed to think, no, actually I don't think there's anyone, we'll have to defer to the experts on this 'cause I'm not a human design expert. That's why we have experts coming in to teach about it. But we are not designed to make decisions with our brains. And not all of us are designed to be out there digging ditches and planting trees. So I think it's a wonderful addition to the program and I'm super excited about it. Super excited about this next Hormone Bliss challenge. Coming up in November, we're gonna have the link in the show notes so that you can sign up and join us for a five day course that actually you'll get a lot of benefit. Speaker 1 (00:54:04): 'Cause I'm gonna teach you about all the steps that you need to take to heal hormonal poverty. But you're gonna start taking action on day one. And a lot of people get incredible results even in five days, which is amazing. But you can read more if you follow the link. So what last words You guys shared before we wrap up, you shared some amazing quotes with me before we started recording. So I wanna ask if you could talk about one of the, each of your quotes a little bit. I love a good quote. So Katrina, you shared this quote, stop wasting time, like someone is making more of it, which I absolutely love. Is that something that you say or is that, did someone else say it? It's actually a line from a song. I can't even remember the song, but the first time I heard it I was like, it just hit me. Speaker 1 (00:54:54): Yeah. . So, so we were talking about taking care of yourself and finding the time and at at one point you said, our health is really the only thing that gets us more time on this planet. And so why are we acting like we have all of this all the time in the world to do these things that are the most important things? And why do we waste so much? Like we, there is no more, like my father-in-Law always says, buy yourself a good piece of land. 'cause That's the one thing God's not making more of. . And so for me it's okay. So that's time. I think that, yeah, we have, we only have so much and we can buy ourselves more by taking good care of ourselves, but we spend so much, we waste so much time. It, I, I hate that it takes a lot of women until midlife to start the journey. Speaker 1 (00:55:45): I love it when women in their twenties want to come talk to me about how to take care of themselves. I'm like, you're so far ahead of the game. I so wish I had the information that I have now when I was younger so that I could have not wasted all that time. , would you have really used the information? Because I loved it. I'm a big one to say that too. Well, I wish I had known this 20 years ago, but I don't think I was ready for it 20 years ago. That's why I didn't receive it because I wouldn't have used it. I think I would've used some of it because I was very interested in being healthy back then. So I wish I, I do wish I had, but I just think that we spend a lot of time putting off, we'll all do it when I'll do it, when I'll do it when, and we just keep wasting time. Speaker 1 (00:56:26): Like someone's making more of it and nobody is and nobody's coming to save you . So I know that reminds me of this surgeon in the town where I was OB GYN in Savannah because she was typical midlife woman like everyone else, really not paying attention to her health. And then I had been out of town for a while and I came back and I saw her at the health food store and I had never seen her there. So I said, what are you doing here? And she said, oh, I was diagnosed with colon cancer, I had a colon resection. I'm getting ready to have further therapy and now I'm looking for supplements that can help me. And I cried because she neglected her health all those years. And a lot of us don't do anything until the other shoe drops and we get cancer or we get another horrible diagnosis, autoimmune disease, lupus, whatever it is or something horrible happens. And I just cried because if she had been in that house food store 10 years before doing natural things to help herself and being interested in it, then she might not have been in that position. But yeah, I love that one. And then Vic, you have this one. Be patient with yourself. Nothing in nature Blooms all year. I know you are an amazing gardener. You guys should see her pictures of her garden. She has a green thumb like nobody I've ever seen. But talk about what that means to you. I love that. Speaker 3 (00:57:45): Well, Speaker 3 (00:57:46): As everyone kind of gets started on their journey, we've kind of been, we we're in this immediate society. I'm gonna just take this handful of pills and everything will be fine. I'm just gonna go to this person and do this exercise. Everything will be fine. And there is, that's not how nature works. That's not how healing works. And so a lot of, when I get started with ladies, I suggest to them that if your children came to you and said, I'm not, I don't know this song, I'm not ready for the recital, we would say, be patient, go back and let's go slowly work through it. But when it comes to health, it's the same. We just have to be patient, be slow with the understanding that our body will heal when it's time to heal and when the conditions are right. And the same as all my stuff. I grew out in the garden, and the tomatoes bloom when they're ready to bloom. , the ec comes up when it's time for it to come up. And so patience is something I think we especially have to embrace and learn to understand in the process. And again, following nature, a thing rushes in nature. Neither should we. Speaker 1 (00:59:02): Yeah. I recently heard this term that I love called transactional healing, where we want it on demand. Like a pharmaceutical, I take the aspirin, my headache goes away. But when it comes to really helping the body heal and come into alignment and fix the root causes, you need to be patient. You can take the actions, but it's up to your body in what way it unfolds that healing. And so you don't wanna be transactional about it. And that's a factor in self-love. It's not self-loving to be transactional about your healing. So be patient with yourself, put in the work, it will happen. Last question. I know Katrina has to go Speaker 3 (00:59:42): . So real Speaker 1 (00:59:43): Fast, I would be remiss if I didn't talk about bioidentical hormone replacement therapy. As you guys know, my TEDx talk was about hormonal poverty and the consequences of it. Midlife metabolic mayhem, disease, disease, premature death, and all the plethora of data on these topics and how they can be prevented or reversed using natural hormone therapy. And I'm wondering if you can share in your personal journeys or women you've worked with, how important has that been? I will say for me it was, it has been a game changer. I'm super into fitness. Just the ability that it's given me to do what I want to do every day in the gym, the ability it's given me to build and maintain muscle mass. The ability it's given me to sleep well, , which is key. If you're as active as I am, you have to be able to sleep well. Speaker 1 (01:00:38): I won't say that I still have an occasional hot flash. Things aren't, it's not made everything perfect. I'm still not completely sure that I'm, that levels are optimized. 'cause As we kind of titrate up gradually mm-hmm , we don't wanna overdue and get everything just right. But I entered this program when I did because I was entering into perimenopause and the symptoms were starting and I didn't want it to get, I didn't want my life to get completely crazy with it. Right. And I was able to avert, I was able to avert the craziness. And so that's why I said before, it has been relatively easy for me. And a huge part of that I'm sure has been the bioidentical hormones. I don't feel like I have had all of those problems that I've, that my friends have had that, that have gone through. And my life is good. I mean, I will say honestly, I feel better, healthier, more fit right now at 54 than I've ever felt in my entire life. And woo. And I don't think that I would be able to say that had I not found you and all of the things including the hormones. Amazing. How about you Speaker 3 (01:01:43): Vic? Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely say hormone therapy. The bioidenticals have been a game changer for every person, every lady who's gone through this program and through my own client base. To the extent that we do it here and are able to, I have to say, I personally think that bioidentical hormone replacement therapy is just about as close to a magic wand for women as you can find of anything. It's just about that close and just what, especially the testosterone especially, there's just something there that, like Katrina said, with the muscle mash and just, it just clears the webs, it just clears the brain. It just clears things. And I think it's wonderful because having that little extra boost, when you suddenly feel better, then you feel more inspired to, oh well let me focus on my meal planning. Oh let me go and do this exercise. You just feel a little bit better. Mm-Hmm . I can't say enough about them. I think it's fantastic. I love that you have the hormone club going so women can have that access. 'cause They're not easy. Bioidentical hormone replacement therapy is not easy to find. And I love that you have access to that as long as you're in a state where they can get it. I think it's fantastic and it's a game changer. Truly. Speaker 1 (01:03:00): Yeah. We'll put the link to her hormone club in the show notes too, in case anyone is not able to access bioidentical hormones. We have a telemedicine company throughout the US that can provide board certified doctors specializing and that bioidentical hormone therapy, we can treat you from the comfort of your own dining room table via zoom and test you and send you hormones. So if

On today's episode, Jas takes pleasure living off the land over the weekend and Mogey's Hotel Ripoffs come to light   Gosh this podcast deserve an award... VOTE HERE:  https://www.nzpodcastawards.com/nominate See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the world of City Clubs, Jeff McFadden is well known and well-respected. As the CEO of the Union League of Philadelphia he has developed a national reputation as a club leader. Ask GM's who know him and they use adjectives to describe him like "Brilliant", "Visionary" and "remarkable." In this episode, Jeff shares his involvement in transforming the Union League from a club in financial trouble generating about $7 million in annual revenue to a club that does about 100 million annually. He also shares his perspective on breaking away from old financial models and how to engage new, younger members with long-time club personalities. Is now the time to double down and invest in your club? Listen to Jeff's thoughts on that topic as well.  Noteworthy Moments: Jeff talks about making the leap to the Union League - 3:45 Park it! The Union League buys a parking garage - 9:07 Building your granddaughter's club - 13:21 Thinking differently about the financial future and the "right way to run a railroad" - 15:25 Change management and getting the right people on the bus - 19:03 The city club and more. Building an investment portfolio - 25:52 How Jeff views appealing to different member demographics - 35:06 Is this the time to invest in your club? - 39:28 Episode Summary: For club leaders who feel stuck in the "same old, same old" Jeff provides a fresh take on some long time issues. He also offers some insightful thoughts around managing the issue of engaging younger new members while keeping long time members excited about the club. As the General Manager, now CEO of the Union League of Philadelphia, Jeff is gone from managing day to day operations of a city club to running a $100 million business. If you're someone hoping to create this kind of growth at your club and this type of career track for yourself, you'll appreciate Jeff McFadden's Perspective Let's Connect If you find Crushing Club Marketing helpful please share it with a friend and be sure to subscribe and rate this podcast. Also, find more information on private club marketing services from StoryTeller, check out our website here. If you'd like to connect with Ed Heil on LinkedIn, feel free to send a request! Transcript Ed Heil: [00:00:00] You're listening to Crush and Club Marketing, a podcast for progressive club leaders looking to increase their club's revenue. Time for Change begins right now. In the world of city clubs. Jeff McFadden is well-known and well-respected as the CEO of the Union League of Philadelphia. He's developed a national reputation as a club leader, as GM's who know him and these adjectives to describe him like brilliant, visionary and remarkable. In this episode of Crushing Club Marketing, I catch up with Jeff to learn more about his involvement in building the Union League from a club in financial trouble to a club that does about 100 million in revenue annually. He calls it accidental brilliance, but there's more to it than that. [00:00:44][44.7] Ed Heil: [00:00:46] Your name has come up in so many conversations regarding just what a strong leader and visionary you are and in the work you've done at the Union League. And I know that it's difficult to talk about yourself in that way. But there was a quote that I read from Jason Straka from the Frye Straka, a global golf course design firm and Jason Straka, said Union League CEO Jeff McFadden is one of the most respected general managers associated with the golf business. He's credited with vastly expanding the Union League's social and business opportunities, knowing that many of their members on a vacation home down on the Jersey Shore and or vacation there quite a bit. Jeff saw an opportunity for a second golf facility, and obviously this is referring to one of the the golf clubs that the union now owns. But when you hear those kind of accolades, and that, what goes through your mind. [00:01:46][60.0] Jeff McFadden: [00:01:47] Well, first of all, what goes through my mind is I pay Jason, which is a good thing. And that's probably why he had those nice accolades about us. But when he and Dana Frye did at Union League, National is just over the top. It's the Disney World of golf. It's spectacular. Over the last year, 27 holes. And now we're proud. I'm very proud of what I did. I think a lot of what we've done over the last 25 years was accidental brilliance through really just perseverance, hard work, you know, trying to get the right strategy and then keeping your head down and, you know, working through what you could do and keeping a smile on your face to, you know, that's. [00:02:27][40.1] Ed Heil: [00:02:27] Yeah, well, you make it sound simple and, you know, I guess when it comes second, nature probably feels simpler. Although I know it's not always been super easy, as is. Most jobs are when you're there that long. But 25 years, you know, that's a long run. And your first two jobs in you know as I think GM and both both jobs five years and three years which is pretty typical, right. I mean, is that do I have that right? Help me out with that. [00:02:56][28.7] Jeff McFadden: [00:02:56] Yeah. No, When I graduated the hotel school at Cornell, I went to the Cosmos Club as food and beverage manager, got promoted to assistant GM clubhouse manager. And then my first GM job is in Denver, Colorado, at the University Club, which I never thought I'd move back to the East Coast from Colorado. But I did. Yeah, right. When I got headhunted to go to the Union League at at age 30. So good times. [00:03:20][24.1] Ed Heil: [00:03:21] Guess, you know, at age 30. What did the Union League see in you at that age, especially looking back now? I mean, what's it like looking back now and, you know, knowing what you were like then? I mean, what do you think they saw in you that time? [00:03:34][12.4] Jeff McFadden: [00:03:34] Well, I think in in reality, I think I was the fifth person they offered the job, too. So, you know. [00:03:40][5.2] Ed Heil: [00:03:40] You sort of you I wish I got I got a vet that won out. But yeah. [00:03:44][3.5] Jeff McFadden: [00:03:45] You know, right place, right time, situation. It just worked out well. The league was struggling in the late eighties, 1990s, as Philadelphia was struggling quite a bit before Ed Rendell, who was a gregarious mayor, wind up becoming governor of Pennsylvania. Just a terrific leader, inspirational type of person. So, you know, when I was young enough, probably dumb enough and not experienced enough to know what I was getting into. And the the more senior statement statements in the club industry probably looked at the league and said, I don't want to touch it. Right. It's it had sort of had terminal cancer. At the time it wasn't bankrupt, but it was very close to bankrupt. But I saw that it had great bones as well. It had a great foundation. You know, at 30, you think you can change the world? I think I've done well in changing the league. And it was just being again at the right place at the right time for the right situation. And we made a bad decision or a mistake. We were young enough to outhustle the mistake or the bad decision. Right. [00:04:57][71.7] Ed Heil: [00:04:57] That's interesting. So what has made you successful for so many years? I mean, if you just take the years alone, that's an incredible achievement in in the private club space to be at one place for 25 years. What do you think has made you successful in that role? [00:05:13][15.8] Jeff McFadden: [00:05:13] Well, I think the way we acquired and operate the club as sort of, you know, being an innovative type organization. Now, when I did my independent study at Cornell, I studied close to 5000 city clubs throughout the world. It was from the 15 person City Club to the to the club that had 5000. And you needed three things. You needed to have parking, you needed to know, because I gave members assurance coming in from the suburbs that they had a place to park. As you get older, you have more net worth to spend. You get a little worried about where you're going to park. The data showed that that was a huge part of being a successful city club. Yeah. So we bought a parking garage right when I got there, and then we just doubled our revenues in in less than one year. While the number two thing at the greatest city clubs in the world shared was they never sold their land and built the site skyscraper and put their club at the top of the building because eventually the I guess after the data shows after three days that you went away and then the elevator became a barrier to entry, there were a few clubs in New York, Manhattan and Tokyo that buck that trend. Windows on the World, that was a public restaurant. There was a small private club component of Windows on the World. But truly, if you were successful, members had to walk into your club, right? So the league had that as well. And then you need overnight rooms. You have all the expenses running a club, marketing, administration, engineering, you name it. If you add some overnight rooms to the equation, the profitability or the surplus that they could throw off departmentally, you know, $0.60, $0.70 on the dollar really were work well. So I was able to. Run those three things when I first got there and then reinvest into the club with incredible dining business centers, cigar bar, you know, fitness centers, that sort of thing. And so for if I look at my 25 years, the first ten or 15 was taking that incredible foundation that the league was all about. Investing in that. Growing, growing the institution. And then after ten or 15 years, we use the profitability or the surplus that was gained to really have a longer strategic plan that we entitled "Building Your Granddaughter's Club". Yeah. And and that was you know, that was sort of a light bulb moment, like, okay, are we just going to be the greatest 1965 club in 2005? Right. Or, you know, in in 2025, were we going to be what your granddaughter and great granddaughter are going to want in a private club? You know how to how do they socialize? How do they use it? You know, we started asking ourselves all those questions. [00:08:13][179.3] Ed Heil: [00:08:13] I love that. I want to come back to that next, but if we just step back to you being 30 years old, when you took that job and, you know, you come in and, you know, buying the parking structure and then you started, it sounds like, you know, in the first ten years, there's a lot of innovation and things moving forward. And I know that some of the games that will pay attention to our conversation, they're younger. There's definitely a trend towards a lot of younger jobs or it seems that there is. How did you get their trust, at that you know, I mean, and what was the mindset of the board? Were they just like, hey, we've done our homework, We know Jeff's the right guy, let him go do it. But, you know, there are a lot of clubs out there who are like, Yeah, we'll get him in there, but we'll just tell him what to do. I mean, how do you know what I mean? How do you get in there and earn their trust and really go like that? [00:09:06][52.7] Jeff McFadden: [00:09:07] So and is fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time, as I said, because of their how they were struggling financially. But with that said, you can't go in and change the world overnight. You need to start small, you need to show a small victory and then capitalize on each of those victories. You know, as they say, having, you know, having, you know, one bite at a time, you know, you just that's way you have to do it. I think we we had, you know, coming in in 1998 on the heels with Ed Rendell being the mayor of the Republican National Convention, was held in Philadelphia in 2000. We had a tradition as a Republican club. So that was really, you know, helped us springboard into reinvesting in our facilities. But I convinced them to do little things, that the garage was a big thing. But we had already started putting new carpeting, new wallpaper, you know, one dining room at a time, hiring younger, more robust, enthusiastic, vibrant servers and studying what people wanted on food menus and that and so forth. And we just basically started with one dining room and then did another dining room and then did a bar and then bought the parking garage. And the parking garage was, was a struggle. We it was a first assessment we had at the league in 50 years. We did not have a lot of support for it. Yeah. So we, we did wind up getting about 67%, 68% in favor of it. Yeah. And, and I figure just a quick story. I was very transparent because I was I was very young at that time. So I shared everything. I still and I still am as transparent as they come. I just don't lead with my chin. Right. What's actually going on in things? [00:11:01][113.7] Ed Heil: [00:11:01] I gotta remember that. [00:11:01][0.6] Jeff McFadden: [00:11:02] Yeah. You know, it makes talking so much or sharing so much as being transparent. I know that's not necessarily people want to be let right. Need to be led and you want to be transparent in everything you do. You just don't need to tell everybody everything every minute of the day. Right? [00:11:19][17.4] Ed Heil: [00:11:20] Right. Yeah. No doubt. [00:11:21][1.1] Jeff McFadden: [00:11:21] With social media and, you know, it just seems that's what the next generation is doing. Right. So we were we were we were trying to figure out we needed to do an assessment. It was very was it very much about $2,000 a member. And we you know, they were hemming and hawing about paying that. And and one member said, could I get my money back at a town hall meeting? And I said, Mr. Grossman, you are absolutely brilliant. That's a great idea. We're going to make your assessment refundable. All you have to do is propose a new member. And it was like a light bulb went off and we ran with that. You had actually proposed two members you got $1,000 back for your first member, 1000 for your second. I love it. This is back in 1999. And basically all the naysayers and we still had it still 30 to 33% of the people voted against it. I would say to them, I said, you don't have any friends or colleagues or business people that you could propose to become a member of the league to help us out, to make sure, you know. And that was on top of all the importance of parking, obviously. Right. And then we were about a $7 million operation. We bought the parking garage. And I think the next year after it opened, we were 21, $22 million operations. Wow. Doubled, tripled what we were doing. And all it is is take the you know, the folks from the mainline or from South Jersey who are uncomfortable coming into an urban environment. Yeah, we just assured that they had parking. Right. We just said we have valet parking. It's right next to the club. [00:12:59][97.8] Ed Heil: [00:12:59] Yeah. Safety and convenience. [00:13:00][1.1] Jeff McFadden: [00:13:01] Yeah. [00:13:01][0.0] Ed Heil: [00:13:02] Exact easiest things. [00:13:02][0.8] Jeff McFadden: [00:13:03] Wow. So and so. I rode that pony for a long time,Ed, the parking garage. You know, work magic for me for the next ten years. [00:13:11][8.5] Ed Heil: [00:13:11] Yeah, no doubt. I love that. Let's talk about building your granddaughter's club. When did you come up? When did you, like, come up with that phrase that I love that I read that one of the articles. [00:13:20][8.6] Jeff McFadden: [00:13:21] Yeah. It just, you know, obviously being a men's club for so long, over 125 years of the men's club, we allowed women in 1986. The idea is there's there's so much connotation in that phrase granddaughter building your granddaughters time, meaning that we're becoming progressive more, you know, more forward thinking, more inclusive. And I also got everyone thinking not about themselves, but about the next generation and the generation after them. So I think that's almost more important than than the gender identification of saying building your granddaughters club the to show and to get the culture of our members to think that yes, we've been here 162 years, we're going to be here another hundred and 62 years. Let me not get tied up in minutia of today, but think about tomorrow and you see this and golf clubs and country clubs where they fight over a new irrigation system, you know, an 80 year old to say, hey, I don't want to pay for the new irrigation system. I'm not going to be here. Right, right, right. And you say to that person, well, you're not paying for the new irrigation system, you're paying for the irrigation system you consumed over the last 30 years. Right. And and and that's the sort of the mindset that we started to and now people are like they're proud when we build we have built into their views a capital do structure but they're proud with the the advancements that we have made, the investments that we've made and they don't they don't think of it as for them. They think, Wow, my granddaughter and my grandson are going to love this place. And it's just a little nuance, a little change. [00:15:05][104.6] Ed Heil: [00:15:06] But I've not heard people position it like that. What has been your overall philosophy, you know, and how do you share that as far as like keeping people thinking forward? Like, is there an overarching sort of, I don't know, almost like value or belief that you have that you sort of, you know, live by that way? [00:15:24][18.3] Jeff McFadden: [00:15:25] That's a it's a great question. Yeah. I think it's it's always thinking about the future. And I and I and I tell members and a lot of clubs do not do this. We have $54 million in debt, which people are like, Oh, oh, that's a lot of money. And then I don't know. And we also have $20 million in the bank, right? And if we had saved a dollar per member per month since our inception in 1862, yeah, we'd have $1,000,000,000 in the bank. And when you tell stories like that to members and you know it resonates and it gets to them that, you know, you're you're not just here to enjoy the club, but you are a steward of the club. You are a steward of the institution. You know, you need to think of it in that capacity. And for 100 years, clubs never did. Right? Right. They matter of fact, to this day, your investment income of a 501c7 is taxable. So I'm trying to tell people that they need to start a foundation to do a charitable set aside for their foundation. Do you know, do well by doing good in your community and people? Some of the greatest clubs. And I'll say, Jeff, we don't have any investments, we don't have any investment yet. I said, What do you mean? You're Aronomik, you're Marion Golf, you're Pine Valley, you don't have investment income. Like now we don't have any debt, We don't have any savings. We live hand to mouth, right? And then we assess for when we want to build something. I said, I just don't think that's the right way to run the railroad. I think, you know, you you boil the frog slowly, you add capital dues monthly into your regular dues, and you always plan for the future. You don't you don't pay off your mortgage without saying without saving for your kids college education. Right. It's right. It's not rocket science. [00:17:26][121.7] Ed Heil: [00:17:27] Yeah, well, but why don't more ask why is it so commonsense? You But I mean, so many clubs operate exactly how you just explain it. [00:17:35][7.3] Jeff McFadden: [00:17:35] Because they let emotion get in the way. You know, they bail They they you know, we're all self-serving, though, don't get me wrong. I'm self-serving as well. But, you know, if you don't have the mentality that you're part of a greater good. You know, you can easily get into. You know? You know, what are we spending today and how can I have the best results and the best experience at the least cost and. And group think happens, very quickly, you know, great leaders, you know, can change culture quickly and then you can get into the abyss quickly as well. In that group thinking and psychology of pricing, whether it's dues or golf fees, food and beverage, menu prices, whatever is important to understand because people want value, right? They still want value, and yet they're going to do that. And we're trying you know, we're trying to ride the wave, tap into a new way of thinking, a new way to run finances and hopefully don't take off. [00:18:37][61.9] Ed Heil: [00:18:38] And I mean, what you're saying just makes so much sense. But let me throw a wrinkle in on this where it's like a lot of times people will join committees of clubs, they'll join boards and clubs because they have something they have an agenda that they are pushing, right. And they want to get one. I get that. I'll make sure this gets done. How do you how have you been able to manage that? Because that's like that's such a reality that people struggle with. [00:19:03][24.8] Jeff McFadden: [00:19:03] Well, that takes investment, believe it or not. And here's the investment. The answer is yes. Now ask me the question, says a club professional. You have to have the ability to take no off the table. Not that you can say yes to everything, but a lot of people get into committees and committee services because they haven't been satisfied by the team or by the professional folks they weren't listened to. More often than not, it's not one or the other, right? It's not, you know, should we have sesame seeds on our bun or should we not have sesame seeds on it? But by the way, I've had that conversation at the board level, which is idiotic. You know, you have to believe the right thing. So love it, right? We always tell folks, don't waste your time getting on a committee, because the answer is yes. What do you need? What do you want? We're here for you. And I train everyone never to say no. Even if you know it's impossible. You always say, Let me figure it out. Let me see if I can get back to you and come up with a couple of solutions that may not get you all the way to yes, but takes no off the table. Sure. The other thing we do with committees, which I think is brilliant and I thought it because I stole it from the Missouri Athletic Club and it's worked really well, is that we don't allow anyone to serve on a committee unless they have proposed successfully proposed amendment. Interesting. So one of the things you have, I mean, if you get in a very domineering type member who wants to get on committees and has very strong opinions about something. Nine times out of ten, they have not proposed a member because they usually have a bombastic attitude or they're so aggressive. Nobody wants you know, they're just they're a bull in a china shop. And so we put that qualification in that you have to successfully propose the member to serve on a committee. You need to answer a whole bunch of questions, fill out an application and send us your CV, which is another high hurdle to get over. And then we limit our committees just to 3 to 5 people with two professionals. So the total committee will be 5 to 7 and the two professionals have a vote and we only put on committees those who have an expertise and whatever the committee is doing, you know, which drives me nuts when you have the dentist, you know, as chair of the Green committee, you know, and the gardening and all of a sudden he's an expert on agronomy. [00:21:35][151.7] Ed Heil: [00:21:36] Right, Right. [00:21:36][0.4] Jeff McFadden: [00:21:36] Yeah, right. So we'll have that. Instead. We'll have the person that owns the garden center. Right? That's the excuse me. That's the national alert. We were talking about getting a. You know, we want to make sure. So on our food and beverage committees, we have restaurateurs, we have hotel people, we have staffing h.r. Directors who staff for hotels. So we we're pretty smart. We try to put the right people in the right, in the right position. We try to push decision making down to the subcommittee level as best we can. And then quite frankly, the answer is yes. And it defuzes a lot of that tension that you have between members. And then if you couple that with a capital dues at party or regular dues, you don't have to ask for assessments where you could get the tennis racket players fighting against the golfers and the golfers fighting against the wine, people on the wine, people fighting gets the fitness people and the older folks fighting against the younger folks who have kids. And you're putting money into child care and baby pools and that sort of thing. Yeah. So by building the capital into it, into the, you know, you hopefully can trigger projects that are the right decision at the right time. I have a woman right now who is a member, I love her to death, you know, a part of our ten year master plan. We have we are not going to build a outdoor family pool at one of our locations until 2029. And she looked at me and she goes, Jeff, I have an eight year old, ten year old and 12 year old building in 2018. 2019 is not going to serve me a purpose, right? Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, you know, so I have to understand that I have rationalized that over. [00:23:26][110.4] Ed Heil: [00:23:27] The course of the last. Gosh, what since you've been there in the last 25 years, you've the club has purchased restaurants and golf clubs, and for a city club you don't hear city clubs doing that often. What, what was behind this and what is behind it? And is this just part of the mission and what you see going forward, you know, for years to come? [00:23:49][22.2] Jeff McFadden: [00:23:50] So we were studying city clubs for a while and you know, back in 1967, we served 2500 lunches a day. Right? It was it was, if you remember, the old movie Trading Places with Eddie Murphy. That was the Union League, right? It was Mortimer and Randolph. Duke and Duke. Yeah. And so lunch was losing. You know, the urban downtown environments were changing, becoming much more residential. The younger kids were moving in and we started to think long term, how is your granddaughter going to use the club versus your grandfather? And we and we just we really started to just think and do some studying about trends and and thought patterns. And it really dawned on us that these younger generation wanted more experiences. Right? They didn't they didn't do the same thing over and over and over. Their grandfather would dine at the same table, you know, every Saturday night, 50 weekends a year, right at Philly Country Club and sort of have the same menu item. Their grandfather had five friends. Their granddaughter now has 500 friends. Right. So the way he or she socializes in a club is totally different than the grandfather, though you typically would find the grandfather on the board making decisions. Right? [00:25:10][80.2] Ed Heil: [00:25:10] Right. Totally. [00:25:11][0.4] Jeff McFadden: [00:25:12] We had to kind of think through that. And they and then we thought, you know, the granddaughter only eats out at her favorite restaurant three or four times a year where the grandfather again, a 50 times that is her, right? Yeah. At their favorite restaurant, you know, And then they saying that the granddaughter wants a condo in Manhattan and a condo in Manhattan Beach and it has more of a lock and load mentality, experience driven versus a $10 million house. You know, we're in Grosse Pointe with ten bedrooms on ten acres, and the next generation just doesn't want that. [00:25:51][39.2] Ed Heil: [00:25:52] For sure. [00:25:52][0.2] Jeff McFadden: [00:25:52] So we started to to to to think about what could the league become and we started to think a lifestyle club. So can we get them in? It's not just a city social lunch club, but it could be more of a lifestyle club offering more experiences, more amenities. At the same time, we realized that because we had increased our revenues by so much with the parking garage and some of the smaller investments we've made, we realized scale was important. So not only was the next generation changing how they wanted to use the the club and socialize within a club environment, we realized scale is important because clubs have just gotten downright expensive to operate 100, 125 years ago, in the golden age of private clubs, immigration was inexpensive, labor was cheap. There was no environmental laws. There was no. Health care. So you. You know. Tom, Dick, Harry, Sally could start a club back in the early 19th century or 20th century and be very well and be very successful at it. If you look at Detroit or Boston, Westchester, New York, Philadelphia, there are a lot of clubs that were started from 1890 to 1920, the Golden Age. And so that that hit us like like, like a sledgehammer. We needed to increase our top line because our expenses were more were very high. But we also started small. I don't want to anybody think we had this grand strategy or, you know, we have three country clubs now. We'll soon have 81 holes of golf, two independent restaurants that are members only that are really cool, tony type restaurants that you you can't eat in unless you're a member. But it didn't start that. It was very slow. As you said, I've been there 25 years. And people say, Jeff, what you've done to the league overnight is incredible. Like time. It's been like the Bataan Death March in some respects, though, obviously we respect veterans and everyone who gave their life for this country. You know, a quick story about our first acquisition was this little 100 seat restaurant in Stone Harbor, New Jersey, a block from the beach called the Bungalow. And it was just truly accidental brilliance and luck. And we started very small in branching out from from Center City, Philadelphia. I was down staying down the shore with a board member of the league. My wife and I were staying there and we were playing golf. It was July when Philadelphia was just completely empty because everybody goes down to the shore. And I figured that out. You know, I didn't realize it at the time. I figured out shortly after this new swanky hotel called the Reeds, it was just built in on the harbor of Stone of Stone Harbor. So the board members, let's go over, have a drink. After topside went over their back deck overlooking the water with all the boats. And I run into like 20 members. I'm like, Oh, Mr. Turner. Mr. Smith. Oh, man. It was like, Oh, and it was great. Brand new. They put like, you know, 80 million into this place and it was fantastic. They said to Jules, my wife, I said the next night before we go to dinner, let me, let's, let's go show you the reeds and we go back to The Reeds, back to the back bar on the deck overlooking the harbor. And I run into like 20 more members that were magnificent. The numbers are around on Friday, and I'm like, Wow, A light bulb went off. Yeah, where everybody's at. And so we quickly did some data analytics realize that over 65% of our members spent two or more weeks at the Jersey Shore. We then did some zipcode analysis. We found that most of the wealth was moving from Atlantic County, which is home of Atlantic City, little north of Cape May, down to Cape May County, the Avalon Stone Harbor, Cape May area, Ocean City area. Yeah. And we bought a $600,000 restaurant that was in a fire sale because there was a tax lien on it, put about another 600,000 in. So it was a million to investment. And it just took off. We had we had it. And it not only took off as a great place to eat because you can't get into a restaurant down there. Plus, you as a restaurateur, you wouldn't start a restaurant there because the season is so short. So it was a real conundrum. You couldn't get. There were enough restaurants seats from July 4th through Labor Day. But you couldn't make enough money as a restaurant tour to open a restaurant because there was only a ten week season. Right? We had 500 net new members join the league because of the bungalow. [00:30:56][303.8] Ed Heil: [00:30:57] Wow. [00:30:57][0.0] Jeff McFadden: [00:30:58] So what I said and then with an equity focus group, the whole bunch of them, we found out that they they loved the Union League in Center City, Philadelphia, but they just didn't get there enough to use it. But now you couple the bungalow down the shore in a marketplace, you can't go out to eat because you can't get a reservation and all of that, except I'm willing to join the league, pay dues because you have Center city. And the Bungalow brought us to buying Torresdale buying Sand Barrens which became Union league National. Buying the Ace Golf Club and Chubb Conference Center and buying the guardhouse in Gladwin. So we just kind of over the next ten years, kept adding properties that grew our membership, our net membership. And if you think about layering that onto the thought process that your your grandchildren are going to have 500 friends. And you need scale because clubs are expensive. It just started to click win, win, win win, Right. You know, and and and these cranky old small clubs that the kids don't want to belong to. They all want to belong to the league now. And we just changed our strategic plan to be called from 28 to 88. And that the concept is not only are we a great club, but we want to be a great club that you're a member of for six years. Yeah. So we get you we get you in Center City when you move in after university in college, we keep you when you move out and have kids. And when your parents die, you inherit the house down the shore. We have we have two properties down there to keep you until you're 88. Wow. That's the concept. [00:32:45][106.8] Ed Heil: [00:32:46] That it's remarkable. I mean, and so far, no regrets. [00:32:50][3.2] Jeff McFadden: [00:32:50] No, no regrets. It's just it's a it's not fun for me or not as rewarding for me as much as when you operate one location. You know, I got into hospitality, pealing potatoes at the age of ten and sort of never look back on it when I talk at universities across the country. So how did you decide to get into hospitality? Well, I never did. I just started working and just never stopped working. Right. I just I didn't I didn't conscientious like, think I was going to stay in hospitality. The one regret, though, is that, you know, we have 1200 employees now. We're over 100 million in annual revenue. I miss the satisfaction of day to day operations and people. Jeff, you have the greatest life. You know, you're not responsible. But yeah, but you don't realize, you know, it's the intrinsic value you get from. [00:33:44][53.8] Ed Heil: [00:33:46] That intimacy. [00:33:46][0.2] Jeff McFadden: [00:33:46] Location. Right? And one one. So I miss that. [00:33:50][3.1] Ed Heil: [00:33:50] Yeah, for sure. Interesting. What a machine, though. It's amazing. I got to call you on this show because you've used the term accidental brilliance and luck in a somewhat different spot here. At some point, it's no longer an accident, and it's probably not luck either. But what I'm wondering is, you know, 28 to 88, you know, that is something that I think that a lot of clubs would aspire to be, you know, to say or to to be able to pull off. And yet it's also very difficult for whatever reason, you know, for the reasons you've talked about as far as like appeasing the, you know, just two different generations or maybe three different generations in many cases, for people who are listening to this podcast who are like, you know, you don't have as well. Yeah, well, McFadden has this or he's done that or, you know, somebody who knows you have to. It starts with a vision. It starts with a belief. It starts with great membership, obviously, and, and visionary people. But for people that are listening, that are struggling with how to how to make changes to their club, to appeal to a younger membership, but also engage their aging membership. What what do you say to them? [00:35:05][75.0] Jeff McFadden: [00:35:06] Well, you got to figure out how to bring those two groups together, right? If you want people to live longer, you've got to surround them with younger people. Right. And that's the easy part. The hard part is getting the young folks to value older folks. So we look at multiple activities that an eight year old and now being very, what your eight year old can do that, an 80 year old. So that's them. But things like bowling. Right. I mean, as silly as that is, it's a thing that a young person can do. An old person do pickleball. Young person can do and an old person can do. Yeah. You know. Lectures and education. Social programs are real important to bring in those young, young people. Go. I try not to think of serving a younger market. I'm serving an older market. I'm serving a club market and try to bring the two generations of three generations together and then keep things lighthearted and fun. The crankiest old guy, you know, will respond with the young folks surrounded around them in an enjoyable environment. You know, cranky, cranky old club members make more cranky old club members. So you have to just stop that cycle, right? You got to you got to put everybody together and try to get them to enjoy each other's company in light hearted activities that everybody can do. You also have to be, as I say, you can't be all things to all people, but you have to offer enough niches at your club to satisfy multiple generations, right? You need to have. You need to be adding pickle at the same time. You're putting Padel in, you know. You need to have a resort style pool. You know, at the same time, you need an Olympic or half Olympic lane pool. So people in their seventies can stay limber and flexible. So it's not one or the other. The answer more, more often than not, is both. [00:37:12][126.4] Ed Heil: [00:37:13] You kind of create like a win win in that environment. I mean, is that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just that is one of those those challenges I think so many people are perplexed with is the do I have to make a decision of one over the other instead of saying, is there a way that you can actually kind of make both parties happy? But like you said, you're never going to please everyone all the time. We all know that, too. [00:37:41][28.0] Jeff McFadden: [00:37:42] Right. Yeah. And that's the hard part. But with the manager, you know, one of the one of the things that I always tell tell members or other managers is, is I never write a member newsletter. You never see my face in our newsletter. I am not, you know, I hope I'm the like the little I am little short and fat, my wizard behind the curtain. I want I want other I want other folks and basically the president of the club to take all the glory, to be the mouthpiece and so forth. So I think being are 25 years and part of my success of being here 25 years is that I'm not front and center. I am I'm sort of front and center on the professional side, but certainly not on the membership side. You'll never I have never written a column and newsletter. I never write an email from from the CEO or from the general manager. It's always from the president or or from a department head or from a vice president or standing committee chair. You'll never see anything from myself to the membership. [00:38:46][63.5] Ed Heil: [00:38:46] Awesome. Well, last question for you. With so many clubs doing so well, is this I'm going to ask you a question. I probably feel like I know what you can say, but is this the time to really say, let's invest? Is this the time to take some chances? Is this a time with clubs healthier maybe than they were for sure before the pandemic, to maybe look at some things and making changes and having a little more courage? Or is it, what's your general mindset, especially for those clubs that maybe aren't as healthy and those that are, you know, really trying to figure out how best to take advantage of this time? That is better than it was before the pandemic? [00:39:27][40.7] Jeff McFadden: [00:39:28] I think the time is right to create the right strategy of constant improvement. I don't think it's the right time to do major, major improvements unless you desperately need it. You know, sometimes you just need to knock a clubhouse down to rebuild it because you're going to spend, you know, good money after bad money, so to speak. But I do think the strategy at all private clubs needs to be we are going to have constant improvement over the next ten, 15, 20 years. We're going to continue to change and adapt and better our product. If you spent if your budget over ten years was $100 million, but that's obviously ridiculous to say your budget was 10 million over ten years. If you spent all that 10 million in year one by year three, your members would say, What are you doing for me now? Right. So I think good leadership will put a strategy in that recognize this is the best of times or one of the best. And it's important for us to realize that we need to have constant improvement. And that's the right strategy. So don't give them it's like your kids. Don't give them everything right out of the bat, you know? Give it to him a little at a time. Keep them excited. You know, don't. If you're going to build some paddle courts, you know, don't build paddle, pickle, padel, hydro, clay courts all in the same year. Now you say, Well, Jeff, it might be easier. Well, do the master plan and then, you know. Dole it out a little bit at a time. Keep people excited about, you know, make sure you have something going on for multiple generations, you know, for the old folks, the middle folks, the young folks. I don't think clubs because we always relied on assessments every 10 to 12 years to do major projects. I think if we get in that we should be constantly improving each and every year and share that with them. And I think you'll keep members and members will enjoy your club so much more. [00:41:33][124.9] Ed Heil: [00:41:34] Jeff, thanks so much. It's so much fun talking to you today and hearing your perspective on what you've done in the industry in general. [00:41:40][6.5] Jeff McFadden: [00:41:41] I appreciate that. You're doing a great job. Thanks for having me on. [00:41:43][2.6]

In today's episode cesarRespino.com brings to you to You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast show, a special guest all the way from India.Divya Madhur, a spiritual healer, teacher, and coach who specializing in relationships.Divya Madhur's message to you is - You can overcome anything, and build a life of have it all.To connect with Divya Madhur go to:www.divyamadhur.comInsta - www.instagram.com/divya.madhurTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee is joined by Guest Host Aisa Villarosa for another episode focused on Filipinx American History Month. This episode is focused on artist, activist, I Hotel survivor and rebel rouser Jeanette Lazam. We also hear a poem from Emily Lawsin and music from Bay Area's Power Struggle. Learn more about and support collective resistance to militarization and genocide in Palestine: https://www.instagram.com/ucethnicstudiescouncil/  https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe7SomsNyhrKIuR-FzwTKjPC5bM1lCi3i6GsXJLRXJvKK7JrA/viewform Jeanette Lazams life and artwork: https://convergencemag.com/articles/coming-home-jeanette-lazam-returns-to-the-i-hotel/ https://www.instagram.com/lazamjg/ Emily Lawsin Power Struggle https://www.powerstrugglemusic.com/ https://beatrockmusic.com/collections/power–struggle. No More Moments of Silence Show Transcript 11.2.23 [00:00:00] Aisa Villarosa: In this episode, we're providing a content warning. Our guest, Jeanette Lazum, discusses personal instances of racist threats, police violence, and utilizes a racial epithet. [00:00:47] Miko Lee: Good evening and welcome to Apex Express. This is Miko Lee and I am so thrilled to have a guest co host this night, the amazing and talented Aisa Villarosa. Aisa can you please introduce yourselves to our audience? Say who you are, where you come from, and a little bit about yourself. [00:01:09] Aisa Villarosa: Thank you so much, Miko, and it's a joy to be with you and the Apex Express family. My name is Aisa, my pronouns are she, her, and I'm a Michigan born gay Filipino artist, activist, attorney with roots in ethnic studies organizing and teaching Filipino studies, in the wonderful Pa'aralang Pilipino of Southfield, Michigan. If you ever find yourself at the intersection of Eight Mile and Greenfield near Detroit, stop on by. And the genesis of our talk today started with a conversation around Filipino American History Month, right? [00:01:54] Miko Lee: That's right. And that's what we're going to be talking about tonight. so Tonight Aisa and I are going to be talking about Filipino American History Month. We know that it's the month of October, so Filipino history, that's something that's deep and should be all year round, just like all of our histories should be something that we study. Tell us a little bit about who we're going to be speaking to tonight. [00:02:17] Aisa Villarosa: We have the honor of speaking with Jeanette Lazam, who is a many decades long living legacy, an artist, an activist. Jeanette has worked in spaces like the capital of California, but has also faced down state violence. Both at the hands of the U. S. government through the very violent eviction of elders, primarily Filipino and Chinese elders, at the International Hotel or the iHotel in San Francisco, what was then Manila Town and Jeanette also is a survivor of political violence at the hands of the Ferdinand Marcos regime in the Philippines and is a champion of Nonviolent people power and that is only just the tip of the iceberg. Jeanette is also a prolific artist . She is the only surviving Filipino Manang to return to the iHotel After being a young person who stood and locked arms with the seniors to fight the eviction decades and decades ago, and she'll be sharing some of her story with us. [00:03:34] Miko Lee: I love this. We get to hear firsthand from experiences of people who were engaged in a fight for equality and still continue to do so. I love elders just taking the reins and keeping on fighting out there. Because we're talking about issues that are deep and complicated, including Marcos' dictatorship in the Philippines, and what went down at the iHotel in San Francisco, we'll have some links in the show notes so that folks can delve deeper and find out more. But Aisa can you back us up a little bit? And for folks that might not know, give us a little quickie about the iHotel. I know we talk about it in the interview, but for folks that don't know, give a little bit of background about the importance of the iHotel within Asian American movement spaces. Why do people need to know about this? [00:04:23] Aisa Villarosa: Such a great question and a grounding question Miko. The iHotel is both a physical site, it is in San Francisco, and it is also in many ways A symbol of the struggle for collective liberation, for housing rights, for justice in the city of San Francisco and beyond. And that is why often in many ethnic studies courses, in many Asian American and Pacific Islander courses, students learn about the iHotel. But as Jeanette will share with us, there is really no text that can describe the violence of an eviction, 3 a. m. in the morning on August 4th, 1977, when Armed police officers on horses essentially rounded up the peacefully protesting tenants and supporters of the International Hotel. And This was part of a larger movement, a violent movement across the country that was under the guise of urban renewal, but was really about the continued criminalization of Black and brown and Indigenous and AAPI people. And Jeanette was a survivor of that. It is a story that is painful and yet one that we must not forget and that our generations must learn from in order to continue the fight for social justice. [00:05:55] Miko Lee: Thanks, Aisa, for the little Asian American history lesson. We appreciate it. Folks should find out more if this is the first you're hearing about this. It is a seminal moment. I also think one of the things we didn't actually talk to Jeanette about is how Intersectional, the folks that were protesting at the iHotel were. That there were Black Panthers there, that there are folks from the disability movement. , that's one of those things that really gets hidden under the rug is the different people that were engaged in that fight. [00:06:23] Aisa Villarosa: Absolutely, Miko. The fight for the survival of the International Hotel was intersectional. It really is a demonstration of what healthy movement building can be. It is never easy. It's often complicated. And yet, They answered the urgency of the moment and they did so together. [00:06:46] Miko Lee: There were thousands of people that were involved in that movement. There were hundreds that were there. And tonight you get to hear from one person's story, a little bit about the iHotel, and mostly just from an amazing activist, artist, and social justice champion. So we get to listen to the brilliant interview with Jeanette. [00:07:08] Aisa Villarosa: It's so meaningful to hear from Jeanette and as someone who is living currently in San Francisco's Chinatown is someone who is revered enough to be on murals in Chinatown and yet popular culture and history often forget that Manila Town and Chinatown Coexist, that these are two powerhouse cultures, identities, people who, in some ways, as Jeanette shared, were forced together due to redlining, due to discriminatory housing practices, and yet the activists in Chinatown today are trying to preserve the stories of elders like Jeanette and also telling new stories through art and through activism and protest. [00:08:00] Miko Lee: Aisa, please introduce me to your mentor, the amazing Jeanette. [00:08:05] Aisa Villarosa: Thanks, Miko. We are so honored to have with us today Jeanette Gandianko Lazam. Jeanette, hi, how are you doing today? [00:08:14] Jeanette Lazam: I think I'm doing okay, yeah. I like the warmth, so I'm glad we have sunny days here in San Francisco that are not windy nor cold. [00:08:26] Aisa Villarosa: Are you cuddled up with Samantha? And for the audience Samantha is Jeanette's adorable cat. [00:08:33] Jeanette Lazam: Samantha is cuddled up by herself. Oh, [00:08:37] Aisa Villarosa: that's all right. She can support us from afar. [00:08:39] Jeanette Lazam: Yes, she most definitely will. [00:08:43] Aisa Villarosa: And you know, in these, heavy times, sometimes okay is okay. So we are, we're so happy to have you with us. I'm happy to be here. Thank you. Um, Miko, do you want to kick us off? [00:08:57] Miko Lee: So we are here talking about Filipino History Month and the significance of that. Can you tell us what the significance of the History Month is to you, Jeanette? [00:09:08] Jeanette Lazam: I think it's a time where, you know, for many Filipino and Filipino American organizations, they come to the fore. And what I mean by that is they come and expose the culture, the languages, not just one language, but the languages and the food, the this, the that. And it really comes to the surface. And you can see how much pride people have, I was talking with somebody the other day about the colonization of the Philippines. And when you look at the history of the Philippines, you have to take it for what it is. You can't take something out just because you don't like it. So many people have decided that the colonization of the Philippines shouldn't be… demonstrated during Filipino American History Month. I disagree. And so do a lot of other people. You have to tell that history because that's over 300 years of history right there in terms of the Filipino community. In a nutshell, culture, language, food, dance, They all come to the fore during this particular month, Filipino American History Month, and I'm really happy about that. That's what it means to me. [00:10:46] Aisa Villarosa: Thank you so much, Jeannette. What you're naming is so important that to be Filipino American is to take stock of the good, the bad, the joyful, the challenging. And you mentioned colonization. So much of what colonization forced upon us was almost an incomplete. identity, right? That we had to ignore the pain, pretend it's not there. Or there's the concept of hiyap, right? Which is shame. And, And you know, this really more than me and Miko, but for the listeners, can you share In terms of Filipino history, and because we are currently seeing a second Marcos regime, you've lived through some of the toughest attacks on civil rights, both here in the United States and in the Philippines. Can you just share a couple stories for the listeners about that time? [00:11:53] Jeanette Lazam: We're talking, Bongbong Marcos, who is now the president of the Philippines, his father, Ferdinand Marcos was the president of the Philippines for 20 some odd years. He declared martial law in 1971 and it stayed for 20 years in the Philippines. I don't think I've ever experienced direct fascism, up in your face and very personal. Civil liberties that people had. We're totally stripped the press in the Philippines was shut down and only one press was allowed to function which was the mouthpiece for Marcos. You could not congregate on corners of more than three people, you would get arrested. Many got arrested because they were journalists, because they were activists, because they were civil libertarians. Thank Anyone and anything that posed a threat to the Marcos regime was either arrested, deported, or killed. And I was there during the imposition of martial law and it was really scary. I have never experienced that kind of fear in my lifetime. In the United States, I was traveling with a group of friends. When I was about, I don't know, maybe nine, 10 years old, we stopped in Macon County, Georgia, and it was the 1960s, late 50s, 1960s, and we were very thirsty, so we all jumped out of the car, and I did not notice there were two water fountains, and I went to the first one, and it turned out to be a white people's water fountain. And um, about a few seconds later, as I was leaning down and drinking from it, I felt a very cold piece of steel against my neck. And I thought, it's not a knife, so it's got to be a gun. And sure enough, it was. And I'm nine or ten years old, and this sheriff is standing over me with this gun pressed against my neck and said to me, you're not allowed to drink at a white person's water fountain. And he said, if I could kill you right now. There'd be one less, and this is exactly what he said to me, one less nigga. And no one would mind. That point on, from that point on, I knew where the color line was. I'm not black, but I'm not white. And I wasn't allowed to drink at a white person's water fountain. scared the living daylights out of me. And I backed up from that water fountain. All of us backed up and we got into the car and we left that example of the incredible racism in the United States. just steered into my brain. I was just like, totally taken. I was so scared. I'm a kid. I'm nine years old, 10 years old. I'm a kid. And to have a gun pointed straight directly onto your, neck ain't no laughing matter. [00:15:50] Miko Lee: That sounds so scary. I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I'm wondering there's such a vivid memory that you have from being a child. I'm wondering at what point was a turning point for you in becoming an activist. [00:16:04] Jeanette Lazam: Oh, was that right then and there I was a kid from New York, so I knew that there were stratas and class levels and where people of color fell in, but it never came that home to me. I was finally able to take the whole question of low income or working class people of color, and racism. It all intersected on that one day. And I thought to myself, no we can't go on this way. And it was that moment I decided I have to do something about the situation. Because I am not going to allow people to do this without a fight. Yeah, it was that day. And it continued all the way when I lived in the Philippines. And martial law was declared. I fought it there and I fought it when I came back to the United States. [00:17:09] Miko Lee: Is there a difference in being an activist in the Philippines versus being an activist in the United States? [00:17:15] Jeanette Lazam: Yes. First of all, in the Philippines, you're dealing with an island nation. And so with an island nation, there are all these islands that you have to You know, deal with dialect, with culture, with this, with that , it's a very difficult process undertaking to do to bring out democratic notions when people have been so oppressed and repressed for over 300 years because the Americans come in after, the Spaniards. So we. We never as a nation never really experienced our own homegrown democracy, and it's very hard to deal with that over here in the United States. It's much different. You're not dealing with an island you're dealing with, yes, many states, but they're all contiguous and there has been a history of revolutionary. Fervor and revolutionary sentiment throughout the history of the United States, and it exposes itself in the labor movement, the gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer movement, women's movement. It gets manifested in those movements. In the Philippines, very difficult to do. So the concentration for revolutionary organizations happens within the larger cities in the Philippines. And the, New People's Army is more in the rural areas outside of the major cities. you can't compare it. It's like apples and oranges. You can't do it. You have to look at the concrete conditions where people at and work from there. You can't go into a situation and wish that it could be this way. It takes hard work and long days, [00:19:41] Aisa Villarosa: so many long days and Jeanette always appreciate your nuance and the ethos of humility that you are challenging organizers and activists to have right that we in whatever space we're in cannot come in with assumptions. And yet. At the same time as you were sharing, one could see similarities between the oppression in the Philippines. In the States, and that oppression is around, how is your home stolen? How is your home and your sense of safety ripped from you? And you just talked to us about your experience as a nine year old, not being safe enough to go to the drinking fountain you wanted, right? And I know that at this moment, you're talking to us from the Senior Center, the iHotel can you share? about what the iHotel means to you, knowing that you've had possibly more history with the iHotel than maybe anyone alive at this moment. [00:20:55] Jeanette Lazam: The iHotel has to be situated Within the context of a Manila town. Generally, anytime you get a Chinatown, there's some sort of other town that kind of is adjacent to it. And you have it in Stockton, you have it in Sacramento, you have it in Seattle, you have it in Portland, you have it here, you have it in Los Angeles. Manila Towns are very is the hub or was the hub of the Filipino community starting from the 1920s on up. And so the International Hotel, as part of Manila Town, plays a very significant role in how Manila Towns functioned, what they offered. What they did and why they were established. It's not just because of the proximity to Chinatown, the Chinatowns and Manila towns of the United States get set up mainly because of racism. We are not allowed to move or to buy outside of those established boundaries. And who established those boundaries, the local governments, the state governments. Which were predominantly white people. It's like the history of Oregon. Oregon was a state that was supposed to be set up for white people only. And many people don't know that. But the iHotel is a very significant place. Historically significant, it welcomes in the first Manong generation. Now these are the people who came before me. The Manong generation, mainly elderly men. Some of them are married and their wives and their children are in the Philippines and some of them are single. And they come to the International Hotel and stay, and then they go away. Merchant Marines it's the first generation, the Manong generation, that started this all. It's the Larry Itliongs and the Philip Veracruz and Joe Dionysus, that all started the activism of the Manong generation. And it's important for people to understand who and what. And where this Manong generation stood for and where they went in terms of labor and how they stood up, how they stood up against the brutal, the incredibly brutal oppression of the contractors and the large agribusiness of California, Oregon, and Washington, and then the Alaskan canneries. To understand that history is so important because that's where we begin in many ways. We begin with that history of understanding the plight. Of the Manong generation who lived in Manila town and who lived and sometimes died at the International Hotel. My father was one of those guys. And when I found that out, I was even more curious, more thirsty to want to know what did they go through and how in the world they withstood the onslaught. Of worker oppression and racism and still kept on going I look at myself and, that's my inspiration. That's what's kept me going for the last 60 somewhat odd years is looking at that initial generation, the Manong generation, and what they brought to our community. [00:25:34] Aisa Villarosa: And Jeanette, I love you because you keep it real, and I know we've talked about the Manongs both as what you're describing as revolutionary in so many ways, right? These are labor activists and fathers, and yet they were also human. And flawed. And so I've appreciated the stories you've talked about where Manila Town, at that time, as you describe it, before the violence and the eviction surrounding the iHotel, it was bustling. It was loud. It sounded noisy. When you talk about it, I picture people like my dad who were walking around and Zoot suits, because Filipino men at the time, I've read, were trying to go to tailors and were outfitting themselves in the best suits they could just to really stand up to some of the hostility and the racism they were encountering. [00:26:38] Jeanette Lazam: That is so very true. it put everybody else to shame. They were so sharp with their double breasted, sometimes zoot suits, polished shoes. Fedora hats. They were genuine and incredibly good looking. And I've seen, I have pictures of my father he's standing on this little bridge in Central Park with his friends, with his army buddies, and they were all dressed up. And you'd think they were going to a fancy dancy, whatever place. No, they had swag. That's the only thing I could say. [00:27:19] Miko Lee: I love that, and I could picture it perfectly, and I like the way that you describe all these people strutting around, and the way you describe it is so visual, and I was saying to you when we first got on how honored I am that I have a piece of your art that's hanging in my house, from the amazing Aisa and Lauren, and I'm just wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about it about your artistic practice. What inspires you and how do you combine your work as an activist with your work as an artist? [00:27:51] Jeanette Lazam: I had always wanted to draw, but I never really did because my sister, my oldest sister she was a graphic designer. And so I was always like in her shadow. Years passed, so I'm sitting there doodling, and and in twenty, sixteen or seventeen, I moved to Taos, New Mexico. And my bedroom window faces Taos Mountain. Taos Mountain is a vortex, and you can feel the incredible energy. That vibrates from that mountain and I would get this every morning and it was telling me draw. This is your time to draw So I did. So I started drawing the Pueblo. And I started drawing scenes in and around Taos. And Taos is a very artistic community to begin with. So that also provided a lot of inspiration. And as the years went by, I started to draw more and more outside of Taos. When I finally moved I started doing owls. I suddenly realized that there's a whole level of animals and insects and so forth that are on the endangered list. So I started drawing bees and bumblebees and all sorts of bees. Then I started doing the American bison or the buffalo, how all of these creatures Were on the endangered list or practically at that point where they didn't exist anymore. And I knew that I had to do something about that in terms of my art. And so I stayed with that for several years. And then I turned myself to culture. I started looking at the Inca, the Maya and the Aztec and how rich and often bloody, but rich. history they had in building civilizations that somehow disappear from the face of this earth. And I started looking at their colors, their color schemes were incredible. So I did that for a while and I wanted people to get exposed to that. However, In between that, I found myself getting wrapped around Philippine mythology, and when I went to look at our gods, our deities so forth and so on, our supernatural forces, I found very little. There weren't pictures so if there was something written, there were no pictures. And so I finally found a book that gave me some sense of what they looked like. And I have to say, fi Philippine mythology, whomever interacted with it, had an incredible creative mind. We had the most blood thirsty, , mythological creatures that I could think of. Anywhere from the Aswang, which everyone knows about, to this creature called the Pugot, P U G O T, which is mainly from the Ilocos region. And it's a huge mouth with a body from the mouth that walks on its legs and hands and feeds on children. And when I found, I was like, Oh yeah. I was absolutely mortified. But you know, that's what Philippine mythology is. We do have the supreme bakala, who is the supreme god, and all the other deities, his daughters and his sons. But there are also these horrendous and wicked mythological creatures. And the reason why I was trying to bring it out was, I firmly believe, and I found this out, In my research and drawing that you cannot. Cannot understand the history of the Filipino people unless you take into account their mythology and their religions, whether you disagree with it or not. That's part of the history of our people. And that part is incredibly rich. So I learned a lot from it. [00:33:02] Aisa Villarosa: It is rich, and it is a mythology that has been threatened by colonization, when you mentioned that it was difficult to find writings that is all by design due to colonial oppression and the myth that Filipinos We're always Catholic or always followed Spanish culture and religion is completely false, right? So I always appreciated your deep diving, not only into Filipino mythology and culture, but connecting those dots, especially to other indigenous cultures. Jeanette, for our listeners, can you briefly share for folks who aren't familiar with the Aswang, and because even for me, I remember watching the Filipino channels as a kid, and they're usually depicted as cheesy vampires, but we'd love to hear your [00:34:10] Jeanette Lazam: your take on them. They are. They are. They are vampires. They are usually women. They have the body up to the stomach of a woman and the rest is a fish tail and then they have bat wings and they fly around at night and your parents tell you about them because they want you to go to sleep and it's scary enough. They are very, very scary. [00:34:46] Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, that's effective. It also reminds me of, there's a wonderful older book by Dr. Clarissa Estes called Women Who Run With the Wolves, and it unpacks mythology and also often, it was a culture's way of depicting women's power and I have to say, as someone who identifies as gay, so much of your art has spoken to me, particularly because there is real homophobia in Filipino culture. Part of that's due to colonization and religion, but your art really centers deities who go beyond a sexual binary. I suppose somewhat similar to two spirit indigenous depictions, and that's really special. [00:35:39] Jeanette Lazam: I'm hoping to do more research on the movement of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer Filipinos here in the United States. As well as in the Philippines, and try to be able to capture that in art. So I think that's my next real challenge. [00:36:04] Aisa Villarosa: I would love to see that. [00:36:06] Miko Lee: You are tuned into apex express, a 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPF. Be in Berkeley and online@kpfa.org Next up, take a listen to Live It Up. By Bay Area's Power Struggle. [00:36:21] Aisa Villarosa: You were listening to Live It Up by the artist Power Struggle. Jeanette, in terms of thinking about the future, talk to us more about that. Talk to us about your hopes and dreams. [00:40:01] Jeanette Lazam: My hope is that, in particular to the Filipino community here in the United States I hope that they will be open and above board take whatever knowledge my generation can give that generation, that they appropriate the genera that, they appropriate the knowledge and the history that my generation is releasing. It's important for several reasons. One, it makes our, history of Filipino people alive, very alive in the faces of the ones that are coming up after that generation. It also provides the continuity in our history. If there's a break in continuity, it's very hard to kind of climb back because what happens then is that people die. And if my generation dies, and it will, it's important that your generation and the generation after yours appropriates whatever we're giving, you don't have to like it. You don't have to love it. You just have to take it and then sort it out for yourself and then transfer it to the next generation. So there's a level of continuity. That's my hope and in the broader, population. I want people to understand what it took to build the United States, what it took the level of sacrifice that the working class of this country had to make in order for this country to be built. California's agribusiness. Would not be where it's at today if not for the Filipinos, if not for the Mexicans, and a few other Asians like Japanese. That's also true for Hawaii. Who built this country? Who built this country? And people have to answer that question with fervor and knowledge. [00:42:38] Aisa Villarosa: And with honesty. [00:42:39] Jeanette Lazam: Yes, total honesty. [00:42:44] Aisa Villarosa: Jeanette, you end… Each of your emails with, when I dream, I dream of freedom. And what you're saying to us is that in order for us to realize this freedom, we must do so collectively. [00:42:59] Jeanette Lazam: Yep. And that's no easy task. Because at every twist and turn of the struggle for true democracy in the United States, true social justice, You're going to be making allies and you're going to be leaving other allies behind because you no longer agree with some of the things they do, but it's not to mean that they're enemies. And you're going to be meeting new people, and you're going to get involved with their lives and their struggles. And get to know them. So it's every step of the way for the larger struggle at mind is a very intense and deep personal struggle. Do you choose to say you're gay or lesbian or bisexual, transgender or queer? Do you choose to say that openly and above board to let people know? That this is who I am that happened to me when they had the first time they had district elections in San Francisco, I was at a open forum and somebody asked so how is this going to affect at that time the Castro and everybody knew this person was talking about how is the district elections going to affect the Castro. I didn't see anybody raising their hands and I just said as a lesbian, it will affect me greatly because we finally will have some level of and form of representation on the board of supervisors. Sometimes it's a split second decision. Sometimes it's something that's well thought out. And that's also true when you're walking where you're working with people. Sometimes it has to be. A split second decision, and other times, it's longer. When I say I dream, I dream for freedom. I dream for freedom for all people. Freedom from the shackles of sexism, racism, homophobia. That's what I dream of. A true, functioning, honest democracy. Where social justice is not a movement, it is, it simply is. [00:45:46] Aisa Villarosa: It simply is. Gosh, that brings to mind the image of an ocean and that saying that the ocean is so many tiny drops. And what you're challenging us to do is, in those moments where there is a sometimes split second decision, that we choose bravery. And we choose truthfulness in those moments. Jeanette, thank you so much for talking with us today. We've pictured Filipino deities. We've jumped from the Castro to the Philippines. And I am always in awe of your imagination and your artistry and your advocacy. Thank you. [00:46:33] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing with us, Jeanette. It was an honor to spend a little bit of time just learning from you, hearing about your artistry, your activism, and your vision for the world. We really appreciate you. [00:46:47] Jeanette Lazam: Oh, I appreciate people like you because it's through you that we have a voice and that's important. That's important. One of the first tasks is always going to be On some type of journalism and media, and we have to protect that we have to protect the progressive and revolutionary sources of media. [00:47:15] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us. [00:47:18] Jeanette Lazam: Thank you. [00:47:20] Miko Lee: I really loved talking with your mentor, Jeanette. Tell me what's your walk away. What did you hear her saying? [00:47:27] Aisa Villarosa: It was such a rich conversation and. One of the many things I adore about Jeanette is she is a world builder in that she encourages anyone who is in her space to exercise their imagination. And as someone who's been a bit of a veteran of the nonprofit industrial complex for, almost three decades now, it is shocking how frequently our imaginations are shunned, how we are often sent to work in siloed areas. The solution to so many of our heartaches is intersectional, is creativity. So my big takeaway is hearing Jeanette talk about the trajectory of her life and how it essentially led her to really lean into becoming an artist. She has shared that she became an artist rather later in life. It's a great example that You're never too old or too young to start anything, to lean into your true self, and so many of Jeanette's art pieces are odes to her identity as a social justice leader. How about you, Miko? What's your takeaway? [00:48:42] Miko Lee: She's just a delight. She's funny. She's smart. She has so much wisdom. I really love interviewing OGs because it's just constant pearls of wisdom. So I appreciate that. But I have another question for you, which is how did she come to be your mentor? When did you first meet? [00:49:00] Aisa Villarosa: I first interviewed Jeanette during the Earlier parts of the COVID 19 pandemic, at the time, and this is a bit of my personal story, I was struggling with coming out to my family as a gay Filipino, and Jeanette shared with me her identity as someone who is LGBTQ, and it was such a moment of connection, even if we have many decades between us. The story she shares of being an artist, of being a Filipino, a gay person, a civil rights defender. It's just a reminder that we don't have to be only one thing. We are so much more alive if we can lean into our multiple identities, and Jeanette is a living example of that. [00:49:56] Miko Lee: Oh, thanks for that. That is so right. We are all multifaceted. We are all these kaleidoscopes of change given where we are in life and the experiences we have. And it's a delight to talk with your mentor and somebody I've heard about from a long time. So thanks so much for celebrating Filipino History Month by really talking with somebody that you admire so much and I can see why. [00:50:23] Aisa Villarosa: Last week for our part one of Filipino American History Month, we talked with Pinay scholar, poet, activist, and historian, Emily Lawson, about her poem, No More Moments of Silence. It is Ate Em's chronicling of the power, complexity, heartache, and love. Behind Filipino American identity, held together by centuries of struggle against colonial oppression and white supremacy, our Makibaka heritage, one shared by Black, Indigenous, and people of color grappling with settler colonialism and government extraction. Now, to close out Filipino American History Month, I'm honored to share with you an excerpt from No More Moments of Silence, taken from a 2011 Michigan State University performance by Emily Lawson. No more moments of silence in memory of Joseph Aletto and Chongberry Zhang by Emily Lawson. With respect and apologies to Emmanuel Ortiz and Doria Roberts and thanks to Reverend Edwin Rowe who taught us to pray out loud with our eyes open at Vincent Chin's grave. This is a scream, not a shout out, at all of those right wing Christian conservatives and wannabe left wing liberals. Who start all of their speeches with a moment of silence. Crossing themselves, genuflecting, lighting boat of candles and incense for every single damn lost soul on this earth, but their own. This is not an old Simon and Garfunkel song. This is a fighting song for you flag waving, war on terrorism, 9 11 memorial addicts. Clean out your ears and your skeleton closets, because I cannot take any more moments of silence. You hear me? I cannot take any more moments of silence. For silence is what buried one million of my ancestors in a hundred American wars. Silence is what drove the stakes through the backs of my people, whipped with chains of cane fires as low paid migrant workers burned out of their bunkhouses as they slept and white collar neighbors watched in silence. See, I cannot take any more moments of silence. Silence for silence is what robbed our Filipino people of our multiple tongues as the noose of colonialism wiped out 7, 000 islands of surnames and languages. Leaving us with a bastardized Hollywood identity of John Wayne Dust Bowl movies with Panoi Indios playing Indians in silence. I cannot waste any moments of silence because they add up to decades and years like the 10 plus that kept my cousin estranged from her brothers and sisters who refused to acknowledge how they all inherited. The brunt of the beatings brought on by their father, in the bedroom of their mother, even ten years after their deaths. The wounds still lie wide open in silence. I cannot waste any more moments, for our concept of time has been warped by the violence that pervades our homes and hearts. Like the self righteous, now terminated governor, who stood at the cold stone podium, singing the heroic praises of the North Valley Jewish Community Center's staff. While signing a historic anti gun bill into law, looking down and right over the entire family of Joseph Aleto, who had also been shot nine times by a white supremacist a month earlier while he delivered mail. And the bold faced governor, in his corporate suit and tie, looked right past the family and only into the TV news cameras. As Joseph's mother, Lillian, hung her head in silence in the front row, ashamed that the governor couldn't even offer his condolences, didn't even mention her son's name, Joseph Aletto, what more, his death or existence. Her surviving children's fury helped her stand up, and that is why she is not silent. That is why they are not silent. That is why we cannot be silent anymore. For silence is what allowed the Warren cops to storm in a Hmong American family's home, barge down the steps to their Michigan basement, shoot 18 year old Chong Berizhong 41 times, killing him with 27 bullets at close range, and say the force was… Justified? Silence is what prevents our Hmong teenagers from telling their story. Afraid that they will be the next casualty of police brutality. Afraid that they will be deported for being unpatriotic. Sent to a landlocked country they have never seen. Even though they obey all laws, pay taxes, go to poor schools, and work three jobs no other Americans dare want. See, we cannot waste any more moments of silence. And this ain't about just taking back the night, I'm talking about taking back the day to day, because I am done with the silence. Our feet can no longer be bound. Our eyes cannot be taped. Yell your prayers as poems. Scream the names of the dead out loud. For I cannot take any more moments of silence because silence has already taken too much from me. Emily Lawson. September 11th, 2003. Revised September 17th, 2007. Detroit, Michigan. Amidst protest for an immediate ceasefire and end to occupation in Gaza, may all who continue to resist against colonization and militarization root in Atta Emily's call, now and always, no more moments of silence. Visit our Apex Express website to learn more. [00:57:06] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us. Please check out our website, kpfa.org backslash program, backslash apex express to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. [00:57:30] Miko Lee: Apex express is produced by me. Miko Lee. Along with Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaida. Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hieu Nguyen and Cheryl Truong tonight's show is produced by me Miko thank you so much to the team at kpfa for their support have a great night. The post APEX Express – 11.2.23- No More Moments of Silence: Filipinx Identity & Critical Resistance appeared first on KPFA.

Mwahaha! This is Count Pitchula typing this. That's right! I got a computer, and I took an online course on how to use it...once I could convince a friend to show me how to access the online course, OF COURSE...okay it was less of a friend and more of a guy I threatened on the street. Gosh you're so hung up on details, like omg ttyl fr ngl. Anyway, this week, Justin educates us on clinically recognized fears and Jigsaw makes a reality show. If you liked this episode, check out the rest of season 5 and beyond! As always follow us on twitter YES TWITTER, there we said it #brave, @pitchthispod and on Instagram @pitch_this_pod for episode announcements and other shenanigans!Support the show

Recommend this show by sharing the link: pod.link/2Pages I did a beginner's class in ceramics earlier this year, and it was a pretty interesting experience to go up against a potter's wheel and lose. Forget actually trying to create a pot, I found it nearly impossible just to get the lump of clay centered on the wheel. I did end up with a few lumpy, bumpy things to glaze - and glazing is its own adventure where you never really know how your project will turn out since every firing in the kiln is different. Do your best, create blindly, have your creation tempered by forces beyond your control, and end up with something unexpectedly gorgeous. Gosh, it's a bit like life, really.   Susan Collett is someone I've shared a glass of wine with more than once on my balcony, as she lives just around the corner from me in Toronto. She also happens to be one of the pre-eminent artists who works in clay sculpture and printmaking, something she's been doing successfully for 30 years.  Susan reads two pages from ‘The Creative Habit' by Twyla Tharp. [reading begins at 14:15]   Hear us discuss:  What art does for the artist, and for the world: “Something good always comes forward out of chaos, difficulty, and struggle, and I want to remind people of their strength amidst fragile times.” [6:32] | How to engage with art. [8:52] | Planning helps the wheel go ‘round. [17:59] | Working through the doldrums as a creator. [20:01] | Our inner critics: “Just because you think it, doesn't mean it's real.” [21:52] | The importance of drawing. [25:55] | The next project: “Within one piece there are ten other pieces.” [27:31] | “The clay, itself, teaches you to let go into the materials.” [30:01] | How to find your audience. [33:49]

Get ready, ladies, because the latest episode of The Hormone Prescription Podcast is now available! Our host and expert functional medicine doctor, Kyrin Dunston MD, delves into a topic that every midlife woman absolutely needs to know about: "Hormone Bliss Through Midlife Metabolism Rescue & Mastery."     In this must-listen episode, Dr. Kyrin Dunston is joined by two phenomenal guests: Coach Katrina Gallagher and Coach Victoria Gale.  Meet the Guests: - Katrina Gallagher is a group fitness instructor at Warrior Body in Morgantown, WV. She holds certification as a health coach from the Institute for Integrative Nutrition and is close to completing her health coaching certification through Functional Diagnostic Nutrition. - Victoria Gale is a Classical Naturopath with a wealth of knowledge under her belt. In addition to her expertise in naturopathy, Victoria is also a Functional Diagnostic Nutrition Practitioner, Holistic Cancer Coach, Certified BioEnergetics Practitioner, and a soon-to-be National Board Certified Reflexologist.    Together, these fantastic experts address crucial topics such as biohacking, anti-aging, and how women can achieve optimal health and wellbeing during midlife. Don't miss this informative and empowering discussion on The Hormone Prescription Podcast! In This Episode, You'll Learn: - The importance of understanding and managing your hormones during midlife - How to boost your metabolism through simple and effective strategies - The role of biohacking in achieving optimal hormonal balance and anti-aging - How to gain mastery over your overall health and wellness during midlife    So, fellow midlife warriors, grab a cup of tea, sit back, and learn all about how to achieve Hormone Bliss Through Midlife Metabolism Rescue & Mastery. Tune into this fantastic episode of The Hormone Prescription Podcast with Dr. Kyrin Dunston and her incredible guests, Coach Katrina Gallagher and Coach Victoria Gale!

NFL Week 8 THURSDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL 2:42 BILLS 24 - BUCCANEERS 18 Stefon Diggs pregame speech resonated with the locker room. No better time to do it. 9 catches 70 yards Josh Allen comes out for a drive in the 2nd Quarter Baker Mayfield almost hits Chris Godwin with the Hail Mary. SUNDAY MORNING FOOTBALL 8:28 DOLPHINS 31 - PATRIOTS 17 Tyreek Hill had 8 receptions for 112 yards and a score, becoming the first player in the Super Bowl era to top 1,000 receiving yards through eight games. Jalen Ramsey INT in his first game back. Upcoming: Chiefs in Germany - Raiders - Jets - Commanders -Titans 12:17 JETS 13 - GIANTS 10 Giants 6-14 passing. It was raining Sloppy Game. 16:01 JAGUARS 20 - STEELERS 10 Travis Etienne 24 carries 79 yards Jaguars 6-2 - Upcoming games (49ers - titans - @texans) Diontae Johnson Rips the Referees *Play Video* 20:15 TITANS 28 - FALCONS 23 Titans scored their most points since 2021 with 28 Rookie Will Levis threw for 4 TDs, only 2 other quarterbacks have done so in their nfl debut (Fran Tarkenton & Marcus Mariota) 22:34 PANTHERS 15 - TEXANS 13 No more winless teams in the NFL Bryce Young 22/31 for 235 yards, 1 TD CJ Stroud 16/24 for 140 yards, 0 TD 23:50 COWBOYS 43 - RAMS 20 The Cowboys are the luckiest team in the league. Daron Bland had his 3rd Pick 6 of the season. Bland has more TD than Tony Pollard. Ceedee Lamb Goes Off 12 - 158 - 2 TDS 27:52 VIKINGS 24 - PACKERS 10 Cousins has never missed a game because of an injury in his entire 12 year career Packers haven't scored a touchdown before halftime in their last 5 games, they've been outscored 73-9 31:56 SAINTS 38 - COLTS 27 Tayson Hill is the only Redzone Option for the Saints. Dope but Dissapointing. Hill 2 Rushing TDS. “Gosh, it feels good to smile,” Carr said. “I was at one place for nine years. If I got banged up, everyone in that building knew I was playing that Sunday. If I got upset, they knew where my heart was. But now I'm in a new place, and new things are happening. You have to prove yourself, you have to show guys where you're coming from, you have to build new relationships. That was something I put on my heart this week. I tried not to be so emotional.” Rashid Shaheed 3 catches 153 - 1 TD Biggest Boom Bust Player in Fantasy This Year. 35:48 EAGLES 38 - COMMANDERS 31 SUNDAY AFTERNOON FOOTBALL 40:58 SEAHAWKS 24 - BROWNS 20 42:42 RAVENS 31 - CARDINALS 24 44:44 BRONCOS 24 - CHIEFS 9 46:46 BENGALS 31 - 49ERS 17 49:46 SUNDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL Carrie Underwood makes $1 Million dollars a week for singing the SNF Song. CHILLS CHARGERS - BEARS Follow Gridiron Junkeez on IG!! https://www.instagram.com/gridironjunkeez/ Follow Gridiron Junkeez on TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@gridironjunkeez?lang=en Follow George Carmona on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mr_george_carmona/ This is a Podcast Junkeez Production Recorded out of Sticky Paws Studios in Las Vegas, Nevada. https://stickypawsstudios.com

In today's episode cesarRespino.com brings to you Dr. John Terry to You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show.Dr John Terry - The Black Belt Leader, overcame bullying to earn 5 black belts and 3 martial arts hall of fame inductions.Dr. John Terry's message to you is:You cannot achieve what you do not believe.To connect with Dr. John Terry go to:www.beablackbeltleader.comTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

Would you describe the way you feel as you walk through the world as having raw, exposed nerve endings? Or would you say that you just flow through the world able to smoothly transition throughout to day to handle whatever comes your way? In this episode, Patrick Casale and Dr. Megan Anna Neff, two AuDHD mental health professionals, talk with Jennifer Agee, a neurotypical mental health professional, about her experience moving through the world as a neurotypical in comparison to the experiences of autistic individuals. Top 3 reasons to listen to the entire episode: Understand some of the ways allistic neurotypicals might experience small talk, context cues, and pivot in social situations. Identify the ways in which neurodiverse couples communicate and adjust for sensory needs so that both partners can have their needs fulfilled. Hear some personal stories from Patrick, Dr. Neff, and Jennifer about how they experience travel, dating, marriage, and daily life in different ways. We want to give this disclaimer that this episode only highlights the experience of one neurotypical person, but it still gives a glimpse into the unique ways that various neurotypes experience the world. More about Jennifer Agee: Jennifer is a Licensed Mental Health Therapist, Professional Entrepreneurial Retreat Host and Coach, host of the "Sh*t You Wish You Learned in Grad School" podcast, an internationally known speaker, and owner of Counseling Community, Inc. and Counseling Community KC. Jennifer stepped away from seeing clients in January 2023 and is now focused full time on clinical supervision, strategic business coaching, leading retreats and continuing education. Jennifer is a mental health regional spokesperson for a national healthcare company and pursues entrepreneurial opportunities utilizing her educational and therapeutic training to benefit the community in non "butt in seat" ways. She has a passion for helping therapists not only become excellent clinicians but solid practice owners. Jennifer's Website: https://counselingcommunity.com  Jennifer's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/destination.ce.retreats  Jennifer's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/counselingcommunity   Transcript PATRICK CASALE: Hey everyone, you are listening to another episode of the Divergent Conversations Podcast. And today we are continuing on our series of our neurotype interviews. And I'm really excited to have Jennifer Agee here today who's an LCPC in Kansas City, and a business coach, and my business partner in retreat planning, and a podcast host, and all the things, owns a group practice out in Kansas City as well. And today's part of the series is going to be neurotype Ask An Allistic, specifically, a neurotypical. And Jennifer and I just spent 30 days traveling together in Europe. And we're going to talk about how that experience was vastly different for both of us. But Megan wanted to have you kind of set the tone per usual and just kind of define terms, and then we can get into it. And Jennifer, thanks for coming on. JENNIFER AGEE: Thanks for having me. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, so there can be some confusion sometimes around neurotypical allistic all these terms. So, allistic is just a non-autistic person. So, last week when we had Dr. Donna Henderson on she was allistic because she's non-autistic. And then a neurotypical would be someone who doesn't identify with any form of neurodivergence. So, now we have Jennifer here, who is both allistic and more specifically, a neurotypical allistic. PATRICK CASALE: Jennifer, what's the first thing we said to you when we got into this room about [CROSSTALK 00:01:31]- JENNIFER AGEE: I don't remember what you said, but I said, "I don't know what is going to happen today but I'm here for it." And you both laughed. MEGAN NEFF: That is just so, like, I would never say that. Or I would never feel that. I wouldn't be say it if I was masking. I would never feel that. And I love that, that it's… So, like, you didn't totally know what was going to happen today but you're just cool, go on with the flow. JENNIFER AGEE: Absolutely. And Patrick knows me well enough, especially, even in traveling with me that that's really me all the time. I really do feel that way. If something happens, I'll pivot, no big deal. If a room's uncomfortable, I can be a little uncomfortable. And one of the things that was super apparent to me when we were traveling together is that we really do walk through the world in wildly different ways of how we experience it. And towards the end, I said, "I just feel like you walk through the world as a raw, exposed nerve ending. And for me, I'm just flowing through the world. And it's very apparent in spending this time together that that's what's happening." MEGAN NEFF: I love that imagery of flowing through the world and Patrick actually brought that into a podcast, which is really interesting because I've used a similar metaphor to describe both my daughter and myself. Like, our nervous system being outside our bodies and the idea of flowing through the world. Gosh, I'm experiencing a little bit of envy right now, that sounds really nice. PATRICK CASALE: I'm going to give you a real-life example of this because it just happened like an hour ago. I was talking to Jennifer. We have a retreat coming up in Portugal in October. And I said, "I'm really concerned that the retreat host is like, not very communicative, he takes about 10 days to respond. My mind goes to like, what are we going to do if this person just keeps our money? We have to refund 30 people." And she's like, "No, we'll just pivot and figure it out." And I'm like… MEGAN NEFF: Whoa. JENNIFER AGEE: And we would, and we would. And here's a part of why, actually, this combination of the way Patrick's brain works and my brain works is a good combination, where I say, "Yeah, we'll just figure it out. Like, we'll pivot, we'll make it awesome. It'll kick ass, it'll be great." And I know that his anxiety is going to be so freaking sky high around it that he will have contacted every person he knows in Portugal he would have made contact somewhere. Like, we would have pulled it out of our butt if we had to, but it's going to be great, it's going to be great. PATRICK CASALE: This is a good example, Megan, of like, what every day together in Europe was like for 30 days where I was, like, struggling so much and I'd be like, "Okay, this is how I'm experiencing today." And Jen would be like, "Oh, I have like, opened my window. And it felt like I was in a Disney movie. And I was really excited to be here. And I slept really well. And I talked to nine people across the street about, you know, various things." And I'm like, "What the hell is happening here? This is so strange." It was a very good glimpse, though. JENNIFER AGEE: It was. I think both of us had a good glimpse into the real way that our behind-the-scenes work in traveling together, for sure. MEGAN NEFF: So, I keep thinking, like, my brain keeps going back to the Big Five. I don't know if either of you are familiar with the Big Five sometimes called the OCEAN. It's actually my favorite tool for understanding personality because it's non-pathologizing. But as I'm sitting here listening to you talk I'm like, kind of seeing your Big Five in my mind. Like, I imagine you'd be very high in openness and very high in extraversion. Have you taken the Big Five? Like, do you know…? JENNIFER AGEE: I haven't taken that assessment, but I am very high in openness and I am very high in extraversion, for sure. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. Because I'm also like, yes, you're allistic and neurotypical, but I'm also picking up some strong personality traits that would also factor into this. I'm just realizing how complex this conversation is because we're not just talking about neurotype, we're also talking about personality traits. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, there's a lot of nuance, for sure. And I think that it's interesting to see how people move through the world. So, you know, the reason we want to highlight this experience, and I also did not do the disclaimer that we did last week, we just want to just use that disclaimer right now, that again, Megan, and I know that interviewing one person does not speak for an entire population of people. So, disclaimer now entered into the conversation. Megan, specific questions, like, that come up for me when I'm thinking about spending time with neurotypical people, my first immediate thought is always small talk. Like, that's where my mind goes of, like, our absolute, like, visceral physiological reaction to small talk. And then, very often neurotypical conversation, which a lot of small talk is kind of the foundation. So, what are your thoughts around that, Megan? MEGAN NEFF: Oh, me? Wait. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, so I want you to just like expand upon that if you want to. This is where we can explain things like- MEGAN NEFF: Well, I, okay. PATRICK CASALE: …we never knew when to talk over each other, so… MEGAN NEFF: This is always that whenever we have a three-person conversation, this is always like fighting the flow. So, I found this study once. I can't refind it, which bugs me because I really would love the citation. But something about where neurotypical people, allistic people get dopamine from small talk, which gave me so much more compassion because for me it's a very stressful experience, I shut down, I low-key dissociate to get through it. Like, no dopamine. So, yeah, I would be curious to hear a little bit more Jennifer about your experience on small talk? Like, is it pleasurable to you? Like, what is your experience around small talk? Does it depend on who you're doing small talk with or what the topic is? What in your mind is the purpose of small talk? Like, I kind of get it, but like, why do you all do this thing? JENNIFER AGEE: So, for me, it could be positive, negative, or neutral, right? And the way I view small talk, let me make a disclaimer, I understand that as an extrovert I kind of want to get to know everyone and at my base route I do like most people. Genuinely, I think human beings are fascinating, I love spending time with them, all that things. So, I've just got to say that and that might just be my personality. But I kind of look at small talk like going to a cocktail party, and you have like cheese trays out and things, and they have cheeses out that you've never seen before. I know how they cut them into those cute little cubes, right? So, you can have just one and you can see like, do I like that one? If so, I'm going to go back and like load the plate? Or do I not necessarily like that one? And for me, small talk is kind of like those little bits to see do I want more of you or less of you? Are you my people? Are you not my people? Do I want to make a business connection here? Do I feel like you could end up being a friend that I have coffee with? Are you someone that I want to hang out with? Are you someone who… You know, those kinds of things. So, that for me is really a part of the purpose, is I am sampling off the cheese tray so to speak, to see what you're about, who you are, how you present in the world, are you my people or not my people? And it doesn't cost my system if you're not my person or it's not an interesting conversation. And I think maybe that's a part of where the difference is. So, for me, if I'm in a conversation that's not all that interesting, I've actually seen Patrick do the, where you could see this look on his eyes where he gets that, "I got to GTFO." You know? Like, he's looking for the exit. Whereas I could just like, enjoy whatever part of the conversation, find an excuse to leave, and like just get out of it, and it's fine. But I like sampling the cheese tray to always kind of get to know people. MEGAN NEFF: I'm having, first of all, I love the cheese plate butter metaphor so much, but I just had an aha moment. You said, you know, if it's not cheese for me, I can get out of the conversation. That reminds me of that fluid idea. For me, it would be very stressful how do I get out of this conversation? How do I do it without offending them? There'd be an awkward like, "Okay, well I got to go, bye." So, the getting out part is harder for me. And I wonder if that's part of why small talk is not as stressful as you can fluidly enter and leave small talk without it being like this big, "Okay, how do I get into it? How do I get out of it? When do I know when the other person wants out? When do I want out?" JENNIFER AGEE: I think you're right. PATRICK CASALE: I also heard like the compartmentalization ability to say like, is this someone I want to have a business relationship with? Is this someone who falls into the coffee category that could become a friend? In my mind, like, there is no ability to have that interpretation and analyzation in the moment where I'm literally, exactly like Megan said, I'm analyzing everything around me, and picking up on everything around me, and trying to figure out the least stressful way to get out of it. And honestly, it does look like this look, that Jen is describing where I'm like, "I have to get out of here." And I may not do this in a non-abrasive way. Not that that is my intention, but it certainly feels like this thing that has to immediately happen. And that it becomes almost torturous to exist in the conversation the longer it goes on. And I don't have a good filter for like my face. My wife will often say, like, "Patrick, fix your face because it's very obvious." JENNIFER AGEE: So, what's going through your minds when you're having to engage in small talk? Because you're both business professionals like I am. Like, we're in these spaces where it's kind of expected. So, I kind of shared what's going on in my mind as that's happening. How do you guys see it? Like, what's that like for you? MEGAN NEFF: That's a great question. I have kind of curated a life where I actually don't do much small talk. I've created a little island of work. And I've actually thought about that of like, it's kind of weird I don't collaborate with more people. Patrick's probably the, yeah, you're like the only… well, I've got one other person that I do some collaboration with and they're both neurodivergent. Okay, but that's not your question. So, I'm trying to think about the last time I did small talk. It's typically, like, I am thinking about my face, I am thinking about, like, nodding, I am thinking about, what is the point of this conversation? I'm maybe, like, rehearsing ahead of time what my next question will be, so I'm like listening for something to grab on to that they're saying that will like move the conversation forward so there's not an awkward pause. I'm typically not thinking about building connections because for me, if I was like, "Oh, this would be a good coffee person or a good business partner." As soon as I think that it becomes a demand and I want no more demands in my life. So, there's a scale on one of the, like, autism screeners, and it's social motivation. My scale is very elevated. Meaning I have very, very low social motivation. So, there's also like, unless I'm having a really automatic connection, like Patrick and I did when I was on his podcast, I'm not thinking about forwarding the connection. I'm thinking about how to exit. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, and I think that's where these abrupt conversation disruptions come in sometimes. I also think I do a really good job of, like, camouflaging/chameleoning, that's not a word. Acting like a chameleon. MEGAN NEFF: Listen to Megan Anna, you just turned something into a verb. I like it. PATRICK CASALE: Claustrophobic is going to be the one because I still have people asking me about that. JENNIFER AGEE: You made me Google that word. MEGAN NEFF: I read a lot of people, that's going to be like a trend in Google because I made a lot of people Google that word. PATRICK CASALE: I do a good job of picking up on what people are interested in and being able to create conversation off of it, so I can remember being at a job where someone was wearing like a Duke basketball sweatshirt. And I did not like spending time around this person. But I knew that I needed to create conversation with them because of the sake of the workplace. So, my immediate conversation drifted into like, "Oh, Duke, like, how long have you liked them? Like, what's really interesting to you about them?" Because it allowed to create conversation that was not like, "How's your day going? What's the day look like? How's the weather outside?" Like, "Oh, man, how was your sleep?" Like, questions that I don't care about to answer. Like, yes or no questions in, general. And so, I've always been good at that but it comes with a cost. And the thing that I think small talk does for me is, Megan, you made a great point of like rehearsing already, and like anticipating your answers. And that takes a lot of mental energy to then have to sit there, and analyze, and think about what am I going to say? How am I going to respond? And then often when masking in situations that, like, say I go out with my wife's friend who I don't know I'm going to feel more uncomfortable despite being with my wife and I'm probably going to mask more because I'm going to be like head nodding more, and making more eye contact, and trying to stay engaged in the conversation. And if the conversation is of no interest to me, and I know that we're not going to become like, friends or contacts, I want it over with. And sometimes in those scenarios, you can't get out of them. Like, I have to sit and endure in that situation. And I think, Megan, and I want you to speak to this too, and your perspective, but I very quickly and intuitively pick up on who I'm going to connect with and who I'm not going to connect with. And if I'm not going to connect, I have no interest in continuing. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And that's why, like, I pick up energy so fast. Oh, I want to ask you about that next Jen, first, like picking up energy, that like within, yeah, probably five seconds I know if I'm going to connect with someone. And it's an energetic, like, either it's there, it's not there. And I feel like I can also register how authentic is this person and if they're not authentic, I feel so psychologically unsafe in their interaction and like, I get disoriented because I can tell there's an incongruency there. Like, I have a really strong reaction to that. But I did just want to piggyback off something you said, Patrick. I totally did that, too. I forgot it. But when I was in hospitals, until I could find like a shared context to connect with someone I didn't know how to enter the conversation. So, I was always doing that too of like, did we go the same universities? I remember, like the doctors I connected with best were ones that like we had gone to the same university, like out East. And once I could find a shared context, I could enter conversation. But outside of that, I'd feel so disoriented, not knowing how to enter the conversation. So, that was just interesting. Yes, Jennifer, picking up other people's energy, is that something you experience? JENNIFER AGEE: Absolutely. But again, I don't think it costs my system if they're not my people, I just re-categorize them in my brain and continue on in the conversation with them in that new category. So, [CROSSTALK 00:17:09]- MEGAN NEFF: This information. JENNIFER AGEE: It's information for me to then I'm making decisions as to what level of investment I'm going to have. I will say, though, a part of my personality, and I don't think this is necessarily neurotypical, but I do think it's more part of my personality, I am way more likely to give people more chances, I'm way more likely to see 1000 different areas of gray as to how someone might have arrived at a conclusion or made a statement, or things like that. And so I know that even in Patrick and I's interaction because he does pick up on patterns and things that I don't pick up on as quickly, I'm more likely to maybe stick in something a little bit longer than he would because his system has already very immediately made a decision whereas mine might have made an initial decision and then I test the theory. But yeah, I definitely pick up on people's energies in the room but then I just re-categorize them and move on. MEGAN NEFF: So, when you talk about picking up energy and then re-categorizing like, is it like infecting you? Like, does it become your energy? Or is it a like a signal. Like, okay, that person has a high tempo, that person has a low tempo. JENNIFER AGEE: I think that has changed as I've gotten older, and I know myself better because I am very intentional about protecting my energy in a way that I didn't know to be when I was younger. And I think that's true with most of us, as we know each other better, you know how to show up in spaces. But I can think of a specific example with another leader in our community who always talked about our friendship. And I did think there was a base of friendship there. I didn't think we were friend friends, but we were kind of like on that road to friendship, for sure. I met them and spent time with them in person. And within the first three minutes, it was very clear I was a business transaction to this person, I was not an actual friend to this person. I felt it immediately, I saw the non-verbals, whatever. And so, although, I felt just some level of disappointment because I thought it was really going to be one thing, my brain immediately re-categorized this person as this is a transactional relationship. So, anything that they did moving forward, I always just saw it in a lens of we're both getting something out of this, not that it's friendship, but we're both finding ways to use each other's skill set to benefit our businesses in some way. And so I didn't harbor as much ill will or resentment whereas I know other people I've had interactions similar and have walked away with a very different experience. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, that. Because I think, for me, like I'd feel like kind of clickbait like, but with a person and I'd feel, betrayal is too strong of a word, but like, I really have a sensitivity to feeling manipulated because I'd way rather someone be like, "Hey, I'm interested in a business collaboration, let's go." But if someone is like, manipulating to get to that, like, yet, for me, that would be a pretty quick cutoff. Whereas I hear the psychological flexibility in your mind, you're like, "Nope, I'll put them in a different bucket, move forward, fluid. We'll move through the world fluidly." JENNIFER AGEE: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And if that person was not able to benefit my business in some way, transactionally, I would have then just kind of completely put them to the side. And I wouldn't have had a problem with that. But yeah, there is that flexibility where, again, I think this goes to I do flow fairly easily in the world and in my relationships. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. I'm going to backtrack something I just said. Actually, I don't know that I would cut them off. I would explicitly ask them, I would say, "Okay, I'm confused. It seemed like you were pursuing a friendship, but now it seems like this is what you're pursuing. What are we doing here?" And actually, now I just don't really respond to people in my DMs but when people used to… Is slide into my DMs always a sexual connotation? I don't know what I mean. PATRICK CASALE: I think it's the right connotation, yeah. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. People would slide into my DMs. My kids are going to, like, hate me, they always make fun of me when I try to use like Gen Z language. And want to set up a meeting, I would explicitly ask, like, "What is your intention here?" And I'll still do that. I'll be like, when people want to meet, I'll be like, "Give me a bullet list of your intentions, and then I might consider giving you my time." PATRICK CASALE: That makes sense, though, in a lot of ways. And like, whether I do think that is certainly much more of a neurodivergent trait, but it makes sense when you get bigger and busier. Bigger, like you're a medium-sized influencer at this point in time. You have over 100,000 followers on a social media channel. Like, you have to be intentional about how you kind of structure your responses. But I agree with you Megan, like, I want to know the intentionality immediately, and what I'm getting a lot of, and I fucking hate it. Sorry, for cursing world, I'm doing better, is someone will like DM me- MEGAN NEFF: You don't need to mask here, remember. PATRICK CASALE: Someone will DM me and then they'll say like, they'll immediately send a compliment out, but then immediately follow up with an ask. So, in my mind that feels very inauthentic, that feels very disingenuous, that feels like you're just sending this compliment out so then you can ask your request. I don't respond to those anymore. And I used to respond to all of them. And I just realized, like, I can't. I don't have the energy or capacity. But I like- MEGAN NEFF: I'm happy for that progress, Patrick. I'm so pleased. PATRICK CASALE: I know. Jen makes fun of me because she's like, "Patrick picks up every phone call that comes to his life." [CROSSTALK 00:22:41]- JENNIFER AGEE: Every, every phone call. PATRICK CASALE: … if I was in jail because I you know you wouldn't pickup. JENNIFER AGEE: Yes, absolutely. PATRICK CASALE: I don't do that anymore, though. JENNIFER AGEE: I don't think you'd send me bail money too. So, you'd definitely be on my call list. PATRICK CASALE: I screen more calls than I was screening. But like, I like what you're saying, Megan, about, like, give me exactly what you're asking from me because I think that's really important for us, in terms of, like, no longer masking and no longer trying to always have neurotypical relationships. So, like, just ask me for what you're asking without like all the additional layers and all the additional like fluff that comes with some of the conversation and then I can make a much more informed decision energy-wise and also like intentionality-wise, I think that's important. And something you said before that stood out to me, Megan, is like, the ability intuitively to pick up on energy that feels incongruent, or out of alignment, or I can pick up on artificiality like that. And as soon as I pick up on it, I'm not having this relationship, it's going to get cut off. And I think that's a big difference in what you're saying, Jen, is, like, the ability to flow through the world and categorize in the moment. My ability is like, black white. Like you're either going into the pile of people that I don't care about, or I'm going to really, really like you, and I'm going to really like show up for you. So, there is no middle ground for me in terms of socializing. JENNIFER AGEE: That's actually one of the things I love the most because, like, I'm the only neurotypical in my family, right? And so one of the things- MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, I was going to ask you, like, if you had any connections to neurodivergents. So, you're the only neurotypical in your family. JENNIFER AGEE: Correct, yeah. And I- MEGAN NEFF: Wow, so, like, you're parents to neurodivergent kids? JENNIFER AGEE: Yeah, my husband, my two children, two of my grandchildren have already have diagnoses. And so one of the things, I guess, I totally lost my thought, but- MEGAN NEFF: I'm sorry, I interrupted your flow. JENNIFER AGEE: You're totally fine. Yeah, I do just flow differently in the world. And I think being in a household, oh, I got it back. Okay, so I'm reining it in. Okay, here we go. So, what I love about the neurodivergents in my life is exactly what Patrick said. If I am someone that they love they like really love me, I am super in, they invest in me time, energy, and mutually we do that. Whereas with neurotypical, I think, because we're more used to flowing in and out of each other's lives based on all sorts of different things, including seasons, everyone in my life who is a neurotypical who I'm genuinely friends with, they're a real friend. And I see that not as a privilege because I'm not inflicting anybody's head, especially, one on this podcast. But I do think that I honor that I know that I'm in a space that not everyone gets to go to in their life. Whereas a lot of people get that space with me, they're not in my inner circle, but a lot of people get access to me in a different way. PATRICK CASALE: That's a really important point. I think Jen pointed that out to me, Megan, like, while we were traveling, I was thinking about, like, how many people want access to me, and she made a good point, she was like, "Because you don't give them access. Like, you shut them out, so people want to have more closeness and connection." And in the business world, that's a really strange feeling because it means that people are going to like, try to manipulate you sometimes to have more contact with you. And that's something that I really, really struggle with, as someone who has to be around a lot of people a lot of the time for the work that I do. MEGAN NEFF: I'm having kind of a realization as well, as we're talking, Patrick, of like, you and I are both in positions because of our like platforms and business where people want access to us. So, we have the privilege of being like, give me a bullet list of what you want to talk about. Right, there's a lot of autistic people who are experienced in inverse. Like, I'm very aware of my social motivation is so elevated to where like, I don't want more people in my life. But there's plenty of people who are having the opposite experience of like, I'm really trying to build community and I can't give people a bullet list of what do you want to talk about because it's not like I've got 100 people sliding into my DMs. PATRICK CASALE: For sure. That's a good point. I mean, what do we hear a lot of from, specifically, our autistic listeners and followers is like, loneliness, right? Well, are you trying to revamp the camera? MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, right. Yeah. PATRICK CASALE: I bought Megan the camera that I have and it tracks your motion, so it's not always in alignment. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, my God. PATRICK CASALE: But what we hear a lot of is like loneliness, and disconnection, and the desire to have community, and where can I get more community, in general? So, it's really hard then to say no to requests, say no to demands, have boundaries with energy, and time, and sensory overwhelm because there's such a desire for connection. And I think that is a really good point, Megan, that it definitely is a privilege to be able to say, like, not going to respond to this, or I don't feel like paying attention to the messages, or the emails, or whatever. MEGAN NEFF: That I'm going to put boundaries around how I'm going to engage with you, yeah, yeah. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. Like your email response is pretty perfect about that. Your automatic response that you have built-in. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, right, you've seen that now. Yeah, see? Building boundaries. PATRICK CASALE: Building boundaries. That's right. Yeah, really, really good point. How about we diverge to another set of questions? So, last week, when Donna was on, we were asking about context, Megan, and like context clues. And what was the example you gave, in terms of context clues? Something about a neighbor conversation? I can't- MEGAN NEFF: Yeah. So, it's, like if someone asks what's your favorite book? And Donna was saying how it would depend who was asking. Like, for me, I'd be like, sifting through trying to figure out like, it'd be so hard because, like, what does the person mean my favorite book, what genre? So, first of all, I just like, can't answer that questions to context-dependent. But what Donna said, which just kind of blew my mind was like, well, if my neighbor asked, I would say this book, if a colleague asked, I would say this book because I know that like, that's kind of what they're asking. And then what Dr. Henderson was saying is how those context cues are all interpreted subcortically. So, like, outside of our, you know, prefrontal cortex, all of the labor that goes into that. I feel like I heard some of that when you were talking about small talk as well. Like, how quickly you're picking things up and then putting them into buckets, if this is a business connection, this is a friendship connection. MEGAN NEFF: I think you're absolutely right. And I'd do the exact same thing. If somebody asked me what book are you reading? It depends on who they are, and what context I'm seeing them, and I immediately know which category I need to go to and which ones I definitely don't tell them that I'm also reading either. PATRICK CASALE: I've heard too much of those. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, so you also know, like, what filter to apply? JENNIFER AGEE: Yes. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, wow. And again, it's this is not like an analytical process, it's intuitive to you. JENNIFER AGEE: It's very intuitive. I don't think about it. And again, this goes back to things that I noticed spending this much time with Patrick is, I see that he has to think about it, I see that he is intentionally filtering things that I am not intentionally having to filter. MEGAN NEFF: Sounds so nice. PATRICK CASALE: I just got like weirdly emotional on that. I don't know why. But, yeah, I think it's exhausting. Megan and I have talked about how exhausting it is to have to constantly like, try and prune information, and categorize it, and place it where it needs to go. And that's probably why like, sorry, that's probably why like, a lot of the times I have this look on my face where I'm like, maybe feels vacant or blank, but it's really just like, really inside my head trying to figure out the scenario, or how to categorize, or compartmentalize, or answer specific questions. So, it's really interesting. Like, I really wish that it would be completely intuitive, or it was just like, "Oh, I know exactly how to respond to this without having to think about how I'm going to respond to this." Sounds nice. JENNIFER AGEE: I don't know any other way. So, you know, our brains are our brains and they just work the way they work, I suppose. But you know, another part of this conversation, and if you don't want to go into this category, we don't have to, but because Patrick is my friend, I have talked to him before about sometimes the different costs to our system just in relationship like with partners and closer friendships and relationships. And in part because I know that it's harder on my spouse's system to do some of the things than it is mine. I find that I very often will default to the highest sensory needs person in the room. So, because I know it will not cost my system as much no matter what we do, really. If I know that if we choose X restaurant, that it's really noisy, or it's this, or it's that, and it's going to probably be uncomfortable for them even though I might really want to go there I won't even bring it up. Like, I make a thousand tiny internal pivots to try to make space comfortable for the people that I love and care about. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. First of all, I love that. When I work with parents who aren't neurodivergent themselves, that's something I'm often like, encouraging like, because they'll be like, "Why does my kid not want to go to the restaurant with us?" It's like, "Whoa, let's think about their through sensory lens." So, first of all, I just love that you are doing that, that you're thinking through what I would call a sensory lens. But to the other thing that's interesting that I think I hear your analytical brain, right? Like, for me, that's intuitive. Oh, I don't want to go that restaurant. And this is that double empathy problem, you have to analytically think through, okay, is that a high sensory restaurant? What is my spouse's experience going to be about that? And I think that is at the heart of the double empathy, which is, when we're in a cross-neurotype interaction, we're just not going to intuitively understand the other. But you're doing the labor, you're doing the prefrontal cortex labor of thinking through what would this experience be like for the other person? JENNIFER AGEE: Yeah. And full disclosure, I've been with my husband for 30 years. So, I can tell the way his eye slightly moves a lot of times, you know, how that's affecting his system whether he says it or not, you know? And I think proximity is helpful, right? The longer you're with someone, the more you know how to pick up on their non-verbals and can adapt. And I think we all do that for people we love, right? So, I'm sure you both have put yourself in situations that you don't necessarily really want to be in. But you know that your partner would really enjoy it, or it's important to them, or, you know, going out to a Happy Hour with coworkers you don't know or whatever. Like, that's not how you want to spend that day but you love your partner and you make accommodations for it. And I think you know that we just do that. But I have noticed that I'm more aware of the fact that I'm doing it and I think it's because I'm getting older and I'm asking myself the questions like, how much am I doing that? Or how much am I doing that is accommodating other people? Kinds of questions, but I've been more aware of it. And, you know, I've kind of come to the conclusion that I really don't mind like, because I've asked like, do I feel resentful about that? Should this tick me off? You know, and when I thought about it, it doesn't because when my partner is happy and is flowing through the world in a better way, that helps me in our home and in our life low better, too. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, right. Like, you're going to get a more present version of your husband at a lower sensory restaurant, so if your thinking about the quality of the dinner, it's like, okay, I could go here and maybe get the food I want, but I'd have a dissociated husband or depending on if he goes up or down. So, I love how you think through like the nuance of that. And I think this is so important for neurodiverse couples, is a love Esther Perel's work in general with couples. But one thing she talks a lot about with couples work is like the importance of not always looking to our partners to get our needs met. And I think, especially, for the neurotypical spouse, when there's a neurotypical spouse, like, take yourself to the restaurant, go there with a friend. Like, make sure you're getting that need met of like, I love this restaurant and it's a high sensory restaurant. And I think when I see neurodiverse couples get stuck a lot, is they're not giving themselves permission to meet their needs outside of the dyad. And then that resentment builds up. JENNIFER AGEE: Absolutely. PATRICK CASALE: That's a great point. And you know, I'm very thankful that my wife is very intuitive about that, and also analyzes the cost because she knows that if we go somewhere where I'm just very uncomfortable, it's not going to be an enjoyable experience, and it's not my intention. But she also knows, like, there are like six restaurants in town that I will go to consistently. So, if she really wants to have a date night she's like, "Do you want to go to one of these six places?" I'm like, "Yeah, that's fine. Like, that's okay." "Do you want to try this new place that's really loud, or, you know, really crowded, or really busy?" And I'm like, "Not really. No, I don't want to do that." And Megan, you and I have talked about, like family obligations, and familial obligations, and the cost that comes with saying yes sometimes to going, right? Like, my wife's family and my in-laws are big, loud family, and they're wonderful, but it's overwhelming. And the cost that comes with that is something where I will have to kind of give myself months of time to mentally prepare to say, like, "Okay, we're going to go on Christmas Eve, and I'm going to, like, sit in this room for six hours." And like, I know what that means in the long run. And I just think that is an interesting way to put that in perspective, too. MEGAN NEFF: The other thing, and like, I'm feeling the controversy in my chest before I say this. So, I want to give it some context. But you know, after my diagnosis, and, Patrick, we've talked about this on this podcast, like, there were aspects of being autistic I needed to grieve like the limits I have. I think my biggest grief is around my sensory limits because I have such a hard time being present anywhere in the world, outside of nature and my house because I'm shut down, my nervous system shut down. But I've encouraged my spouse, like, you get to grieve this too. And that's tricky for him, that's not intuitive. But like, the other day, a concert came up, and he was like, "You know what, I had a moment of like it'd be nice if, you know, Megan Anna would want to go to something like that with me." And I am encouraging him of like, "You get to grieve that you don't have a spouse who can enjoy concerts with you." So, I think that's a tricky line, but I think it is important, especially, if this is later in life discovery for both partners to process and grieve elements of what it means to be a neurodiverse. And likewise, like, there might be elements where I grieve that my spouse doesn't intuitively get me in the same way that neurodivergent people do. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah. JENNIFER AGEE: I love that you guys are having this conversation. I really do because I just think of how many people that have been in my office over the years, where there's an undercurrent of all of this going on, but in people's politeness are not wanting to hurt their partner's feelings. They don't also own the parts of them that are true that may not feel great to say out loud, and I think healthy relationships gives space for both partners to feel those feelings. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's important to any couple but especially, in a neurodiverse couple where we are working on that across neurotype, double empathy issue of like, we have got to create space for there to be complex emotions and for us to hold space for our partners to have complex emotions. PATRICK CASALE: That's definitely an episode in the making. I think just having conversations around neurodiverse couples, and partnerships, and communication styles because that's what comes up a lot is missed attunement, and communication, and interpretation of communication. JENNIFER AGEE: That is going to be a huge episode. You all don't even know, buckle up. It is going to be big. I want to compliment you guys, one of the things I really enjoy about your conversations is that you very clearly and articulate the felt experience of being an autistic person walking through the world, where just like you're asking me questions as, you know, ask the neurotypical day, you know, kind of thing, it gives me a peek behind the curtain too, to what's actually happening in your system. And so I just really appreciate and value what you guys are doing. I want you to know that. MEGAN NEFF: Thank you. I'm going to, like, not to totally deflect but I'm going to deflect. First of all, like those words mean a lot, but I also noticed myself retreating with the compliment coming in. How do you experience compliments as a allistic neurotypical? JENNIFER AGEE: I think, for me, how I experience compliments has changed as I've healed my own childhood crap. So, you know, when I was younger, it was definitely not something that I accepted or received. And now when somebody says something nice, I just say, "Thank you." Or I hear all, you know, a lot of times, "Oh, my word, your life looks freaking amazing. Look at all the things you're doing. You know, I just wish I could, you know, have a life like that." And I'll just say, "Thank you. Yeah, it is pretty amazing." And so I can receive it now. But that was not easier when I was younger. And I think that just had more to do with childhood junk than anything else. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah. JENNIFER AGEE: But I'll make my husband stay in there and take it sometimes. I'll just be like, I'll warn him, I'll say, "I'm about to say something nice and you just need to take it." That's exactly what I say. MEGAN NEFF: I love that. PATRICK CASALE: Well, and I can see that being true because that's kind of how our relationship goes sometimes. And two, I could see you retreating Megan. Like, I saw your body like do this. MEGAN NEFF: Even though, like, I loved I loved those words and they genuinely mean a lot. I think it's the positive emotion. And again, this is on the big five, there's a whole facet of positive emotion. It's often low for autistic people. But it's both like, how much we generate positive emotion, but also how we experience it coming toward us. And for me, it can mean a lot but positive emotion coming toward me it feels like a sensory demand. I don't know how else to say it, which is that- JENNIFER AGEE: Because of the titter tat, like, of like a give and take. Like, because I'm saying something nice to you now there's an internal expectation something's supposed to come back. MEGAN NEFF: That's part of it. So, part of it is energetic, just like, but then part of it is I'm supposed to have a nice response to this. And I just typically have an awkward response to compliments. So, also, I guess, there's social demand around and now how do I take this in, and then respond to it? And it's also the like, okay, like, teenage era, it brings me back to like middle school and high school. Like, someone complements your shirt, then you compliment their shoes. Like this exchange. Yeah. JENNIFER AGEE: There's a lot of, you're tapping into something that's completely accurate, which is there's a ton of nuance around relationships, which is where, I think, you know, the two of you would just prefer to cut the bowl and get right to the meat and potatoes. I'm from the Midwest as well. So, like, there's a ton of politeness that goes around conversations because coming- MEGAN NEFF: I grew up in the Midwest, yeah. JENNIFER AGEE: So, coming directly at someone with like, "Hey, saw you messaged me, tell me what you want, what you really, really want. And then like, we'll get out of here." MEGAN NEFF: I love So the Spice Girl reference just there, by the way. JENNIFER AGEE: All right, random brain. But anyway, so if someone came at me that way, I'd be like, "Well, okay, then Mr. so and so." You know? MEGAN NEFF: It will put you off. JENNIFER AGEE: But I know enough now to be like, they're just being direct because they need me to cut to the chase but I will tell you that is a more recent development. And you will be on my suspicious list as to whether or not you go in category, transactional. Like, I'm already starting to make categorizations based on that directness now. I will tell you the first time I met Patrick, and I had already hired him to talk at my first retreat, I told my husband I said, "I don't even know if I should go up and say hello to him based on the look on his face." Like, I'm like, "I don't think this dude likes me at all." Anyway, because he's like, "Well, it's the truth. You tell stories about me, I'm going to tell him about you." Anyway. So, just the way, you know, his presentation and all this stuff is, as soon as he was diagnosed, it was like my brain re-categorize every interaction we had, and I was like, "Oh." And I didn't feel some type of way about them anymore because I understood that was just him being genuine in that moment, his face didn't want to make a fake smile face, which my good Midwestern parts were like, "Put a fake ass smile on, I'm here, come on." You know? So, and he didn't want to, and he didn't. But now that I know that I'm like, okay, he was being genuine in that moment, and my brain re-categorized that. MEGAN NEFF: And this is one of the potential benefits of relational self-disclosure is then we have an accurate narrative to, like, encode those interactions. I got this a lot from my life, too. I think, Patrick, you have too, probably, a lot of autistic people. Like, you seem distant, aloof, like hard to get to know, disinterested. Whereas like, I might be the person in the crowd, like, trying to find someone to make talk with so that I don't awkwardly stand in the corner. But most people are reading me and have read me as disinterested. So, I think it's so helpful then when there's this narrative of like, oh, okay, I understand this interaction, I can categorize it differently now. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, absolutely. That's so spot on. I think those adjectives or description words would be the ones that people would use for me most often. And when I'm connected with people, I'm really connected with them. Like, I can talk, and be very social, and very engaging. But yeah, those would be the words that I think come to the forefront for most people. And I think a diagnosis helps, like you both said, re-categorize, in a way, or at least reshape a perspective, which I think is important, too, if you're open to reframing the perspective, right? Because people can also interpret the diagnosis is like, so what? Like, you're still acting this sort of way. I'm from New York. Like, even if I wasn't autistic, I think there's still a level of directness of being from the Northeast, where like, that is how people communicate. And then moving to the South, were people who are like, "Bless your heart." And like, we got to put all of this fluff into all of the conversations. And I'm like, what is happening here? I don't understand it. So, that's very interesting, you know, in general. But I agree that those are the words that people would describe me with in terms of like, getting to know me socially. And I think that's strange when I am the face of a business where we're hosting people all over the world and if their perception is like, Patrick, is unapproachable, and distant, and really mean, that just doesn't feel great for my brand. But it doesn't seem like that is the case. It just seems like people want to get to know me more because of how distant I present, I guess. I don't know, that's what I'd say. JENNIFER AGEE: I've told you 1000 times it is a part of the key to your success because the, I want to be liked parts of us, freaking love a good aloof person because we're like, "Why don't they like us? Maybe we can…" I mean, like, so all those parts kick in for us, too. I think when we see that we go into all of those spaces within ourselves and yeah, I think it's been a part of your success, to be quite honest. PATRICK CASALE: I appreciate that. MEGAN NEFF: I think it's part of why my spouse married me was because I was like, the aloof in college, right? So, like, that plays really differently. Like, being an autistic girl who was like, hard to get to know, like, in the dating world, that kind of works, actually. JENNIFER AGEE: I could see that. PATRICK CASALE: Can we talk about dating real quick? Because this is something we did not talk about last week and that is something. I just want to check our time too. Do you have your meeting, Megan?   MEGAN NEFF: I don't but I don't know if you all have anything. I also have a couple more questions I would really like to- PATRICK CASALE: Okay, cool. We've got like- MEGAN NEFF: …have conversations on- PATRICK CASALE: …20-ish more minutes, so I am [CROSSTALK 00:49:21]- MEGAN NEFF: Are you okay Jennifer for time? JENNIFER AGEE: I'm good. PATRICK CASALE: Last week I didn't have the same buffer, but so dating, right? You just made a good point, Megan. And we've never talked about dating on this podcast as neurodivergent people. I struggle so much to pick up on social cues. I think I'm better at it now. But during that span of my life, it was really hard. And like if people were interested in me, I definitely did not know. So, if someone came over and just talked to me randomly, or like, put their hand on my leg or like, gave me a certain look, I would just not really be able to absorb that or take that in or make sense of that. I definitely had a lot of those interactions where someone was definitely hitting on me and I was probably like, "Oh, did you need, like, direction somewhere? Or like, do you need recommendations for a restaurant?" And I just, like, got up and walked away. My wife is like, "You definitely missed out on a lot of relationships because the first date." I didn't know she wanted to kiss me. I didn't know. She said, I gave her like an awkward side hug, like, goodbye. I probably like ran the hell out of there. I was like, "I got to go." Anyway, Jennifer and Megan, how do you experience that and picking up on social cues? MEGAN NEFF: Jennifer, I'll let you go first. JENNIFER AGEE: I mean, I picked up on it just fine, and then, look, I think if you're cute enough, and you like the person enough, any stupid line will work is kind of my theory. So, I never had a problem with it. And then based on the cues, I would, again, immediately categorize in my mind, do I see this person as a potential anything? And if the answer is no, I would politely you know, hahaha, and exit the conversation. And if I thought they were a potential, I would lean into it. But I was able to tell and really intentionally make a decision if I was going to navigate that interaction one direction or another. PATRICK CASALE: I'm thinking of a situation right now that while I was in Charlotte, before I moved to North Carolina, with some friends, and a friend of their friend, and she kept putting her leg on my legs while we were sitting at a restaurant, and I kept moving and being like, "Oh, my God, you must need space. Like, you clearly don't have enough space in this booth." Anyway, sorry. JENNIFER AGEE: Yeah. You misread that one. PATRICK CASALE: I misread that one. MEGAN NEFF: Definitely. I hear that a lot. Patrick, that's not been my experience, but I hear that a lot from autistic people, especially, more so, I think, cishet men. Like, just totally missing. And, again, talking like in kind of heteronormative spaces, I wonder if many girls are more subtle in their… Because like, we live in this patriarchal culture where it's typically like, the man is supposed to initiate. So, like, yeah, I didn't really relate to that. Also my dating experience happened in this really weird bubble of evangelicalism. And so my dating experience was more like I get into a really deep kind of philosophical, existential conversation with someone, we end up talking late into the night. Like, it would become pretty clear. And it would start with kind of a emotional intellectual connection, typically. So, I do think that I have had like, I think I interpret all banter as flirting, so I do think I have difficulty and in the workplace, this has confused me when I've had male supervisors, banter with me, of it feels flirtatious, but then I'm, like, confused by that. So, I've definitely had that experience actually work. But it's more, everything feels flirtatious versus nothing feels flirtatious. PATRICK CASALE: It's very interesting. I definitely think we have episodes to do off of some of these conversations because it's just interesting to hear these different perspectives and how we interpret and move through the world. So, Megan was there [CROSSTALK 00:53:53]- JENNIFER AGEE: They're so fascinating. MEGAN NEFF: They really are. Jennifer, well, this is a strong pivot. I don't know if we're done. It seemed that fluid, I have to explicitly ask. PATRICK CASALE: This actually feels more fluid than last week. So, pivot away. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I'm just saying I'm not fluid. So, I'm like having to explicitly ask, are we done with that conversation? Can I- PATRICK CASALE: Can I transition? MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, sensory, we haven't talked about that. So, I know, we've talked about small talk, we've talked about context cues, what's your sensory experience of the world? JENNIFER AGEE: I literally don't think about it. MEGAN NEFF: I was actually guessing that might be what you say, of just like, because it's like a fish in water not experiencing water. That's so interesting. So, like, you'd have to think about it to think about what your sensory experience is. JENNIFER AGEE: Exactly. And now it's 105 degrees. So, if I go outside, I'm going to have a sensory experience of being hot and uncomfortable. I mean, it's just being a human in the world, right? But in general, I don't filter or anticipate anything in terms of thinking about my sensory needs at all because this is kind of, I hope that didn't make me sound bad. But the truth is, I know my systems got it. So, if I walk into a situation, I know that my system will pivot or adjust in whatever way it needs to, to be okay. So, I just really don't think about it. MEGAN NEFF: Yeah, yeah, that doesn't sound bad. That's like literally one of the core differences is something I talk a lot about is how neurodivergent people have like ice thin window of, like, window of tolerance because we can't take in incoming stressors in our body adapt as easily. Same thing with sensory, you're saying your system can take in new input, and adapt, and be okay. And that is like precisely one of the huge differences between allistic and autistic systems. PATRICK CASALE: Yeah, I'm thinking about, like, the one-degree temperature difference that I sometimes need to make me feel more comfortable in my house. And if my wife uses the air fryer, how I can't sleep at night because I can smell the smell of like the air fryer all night, and I'm so uncomfortable, and how I so often default to certain clothing items because of comfort. And it's just amazing how much energy and intention has to go into like sensory soothing, and really having to be really aware and vigilant about it pretty constantly in order to be comfortable. JENNIFER AGEE: So, this is a great example, actually, you mentioning the temperature of how my system, I will just kind of take a lock and just get on with it. So, when we traveled we would often stay in Airbnbs because we packed basically in a backpack for a month, you know? Then we always had to do laundry. He likes it like a freaking icebox. I mean, it was a meat locker in there. I keep my house at 77 degrees. MEGAN NEFF: 77? JENNIFER AGEE: Yeah, and I feel amazing, right? So, at night we'd get in, we'd both kick our shoes off at the door and go to separate rooms. And he would have it set to icebox temperature. And I literally slept with my head under the covers almost every night because I was freaking freezing. But I knew I could wake up and be like, all right, let's go to coffee, you know, it's going to be a good day. And if that affected his sleep, if that affected you know, all of these things, I was thinking of those things, too. I know you made accommodations for me too. But I'm just talking specifically about the being physically comfortable in a space. I was just like, it's not worth it because it's going to cost him sleep, which is going to cost him a lot, lot more the next day. PATRICK CASALE: 77 degrees sounds miserable, first of all. That's what my dad keeps his house at in Florida. I go down there and like, go into an Airbnb, I can't do this. But too, I appreciate that. So, that's a great example of friendships throughout different neurotypes. And being intentional about the things that we know are going to impact the other. And I knew you did that while we were there. Like, I knew you were definitely like Jen is a verbal processor. And I had to tell Jen, like, "If you're going to say all of these things to me every day, I'm going to take them literally. So, if you need me to do something now, then tell me. But if you are just processing your thoughts, please, like, give me context that that's what's happening. Otherwise, the conversation of like, 'Okay, we need to do this, we need to do this, we need to do this.'" And I'm like, "Fuck, are we doing that right now? Like, what's happening?" So, that was very helpful. And also, like, I know, Jen wants to talk in the morning and I am not a morning person. And every morning that we went and got coffee she'd be, like, holding it in, and I could see it in her face where like, I wasn't even talking, I was just like, pointing direction sometimes because I was like, so tired or like, out of it. And I just want to say that I appreciate that, so it was helpful. JENNIFER AGEE: I got you. Thanks for not letting me get run over because he did pull me in a few times when I was distracted by the beauty of the world. PATRICK CASALE: True story. MEGAN NEFF: I just want to say, like, I love kind of, you're all… Oh my gosh, words, do words stop for me after an hour? Is that what's happening? I love your dynamic and I love getting this inside perspective on Patrick of, and I really appreciate seeing your dynamic. I think it's a really wonderful model of what good cross-neurototype friendship. Like, I wanted to say business but it feels and sounds more like a friendship when you all talk. JENNIFER AGEE: It's a friendship that turned into business, for sure. PATRICK CASALE: And it all started with both of us not liking the other person based on certain stereotypes. MEGAN NEFF: Based on the double empathy problem? Was it because of assumptions you were making about each other? PATRICK CASALE: Yes.  JENNIFER AGEE: Yeah, Patrick. PATRICK CASALE: I would talk about what I was assuming on air because it sounds unbelievably discriminatory. JENNIFER AGEE: Yeah, Patrick. PATRICK CASALE: [CROSSTALK 00:59:44] from the Midwest, they're having their first retreat in Gatlinburg, Tennessee. I assume this person is just a terrible human being. I don't want to say associate with this person. Why did I say yes to speak at this event? All the things that are going through my head. And then we met in Hawaii at a conference and like then we spent the next five days together, her and her husband and me and some other friends. And the rest is history. But that was definitely my initial impression, which unfortunately is very often my initial impression is like, I'm already assuming I'm not going to like the person, and I really have to experience them to then change my opinion or perspective. I don't go into a lot of social situations assuming the best, I should say, socially. So, that is a difference in our styles, for sure. JENNIFER AGEE: And I'm the exact opposite. I go into every situation and assume that it's going to be awesome. And if it turns out not to be I just adjust. MEGAN NEFF: I think that's what makes me think you're an EO. Yes, I abbreviate personality assets or factors because the high extraversion, high openness, when you look at personalities, if you were to line up 100 people they are the most optimistic forward thinking people in the world. So, it is interesting to me how well you all gel because that's typically not the autistic person. Like, we're maybe on the other side of the spectrum, often, not always, but… PATRICK CASALE: I think that doing some of these events together that we do, and then having that 30 days…30 days I don't want to travel with anybody, I'm just going to be quite honest. Like, I don't want to travel with my wife for 30 days, I want to travel with anyone by like, halfway through, I was just like, "Oh my God, I'm so done." But it gives you a good glimpse into someone who is very extroverted and optimistic because I think some people in society can also misinterpret that as like, this doesn't feel real, this doesn't feel genuine, this feels really artificial. How can you put this face on every day? I got to see for 30 days that this is just every day. And I thought to myself, "This is wild like that someone can move through the world optimistic all the time." I cannot do that. I feel like I'm optimistic 3% of my life, and that might be generous. So, it was just a very interesting experience. I really wish we would have documented more of it either via writing or video to give different perspectives into the different neurotypes in terms of moving through the world, and traveling, and experiencing all of these places, and transitions, and sensory overload, and stimulation, and everything that went into those 30 days because it was so vastly different. Like, if you can imagine Jennifer in Italy, opening her window, seeing the mountains, and like I imagine there were like bluebirds singing and all sorts of stuff. When I opened my window, my view was of old Italian men arguing with each other every morning. Like, we had very different experiences in every sense of the world. And I almost feel like that is like a good glimpse into actual inner world and inner working. MEGAN NEFF: [CROSSTALK 1:02:46], oh, go ahead. JENNIFER AGEE: Go ahead. MEGAN NEFF: I was going to… Go ahead. JENNIFER AGEE: No, you. MEGAN NEFF: Oh, I was just going to clarify is that because your perception of what your, "I gravitated toward." Was different or because you actually had different… PATRICK CASALE: We actually had very different locations in the hotel we were staying. MEGAN NEFF: Okay. PATRICK CASALE: And she had a really beautiful view. Like, I imagine if I looked at it every day, I also would have been more happy than the vi

Listen to ASCO's Journal of Clinical Oncology essay, “Do You See Me?,” by Dr. Kristen McCullough, a Hematology Clinical Pharmacy Specialist at Mayo Clinic. The essay is followed by an interview with McCullough and host Dr. Lidia Schapira. McCullough shares a pharmacist's perspective on experiencing a patient loss. TRANSCRIPT “Ope!” is the common Minnesotan exclamation when you bump into someone you did not see. As a pharmacist working in ambulatory care, I am more apt to hear it than most. I am a convenient presence in clinic life, available when needed, but I was trained to be as unobtrusive as the beige and bespeckled wallpaper that shrouds the hallway. After a decade, many still struggle to get my name correct. I hear a muttered thanks occasionally, but I know minds are fixated on the next patient, research question, grant deadline, or difficult conversation.  I try to be accessible when you need me, from the minutiae of learning to order ondansetron as a new fellow to managing catastrophic relapses with multiorgan failure as a seasoned physician giving salvage chemotherapy. On nights, weekends, holidays, or when we are separated by a dozen time zones, I am here. We have navigated the uncomfortable waters of chemotherapy in hemodialysis, written clinical trials, obtained medication on compassionate use, and fought with insurance companies. I bear the brunt of your frustration when the electronic medical record feels cumbersome and ordering chemotherapy is just not like it used to be. Do you remember asking me to “just fix the system” in sheer exasperation but high-fiving me a few weeks later when you entered a chemotherapy plan without my assistance or corrections? I know that needing my help feels inefficient, impractical, and almost like a failure. You wish it was an easier, simpler, and more self-reliant system.  But there are many times when you do not need me. When things go well and the bone marrow shows a complete response, the BCR::ABL1 is undetectable, or the positron emission tomography scan is clear. I am absent in those often fleetingly beautiful moments when you say “The cancer is in remission!” and you joyfully dismiss your patient. Did you forget that I had planned a visit? It is the desk staff who graciously tell me that my visit was presumably canceled. The patient has already left for the day. I am overjoyed for them, but it is bittersweet to be forgotten. Do you remember that gray and rainy afternoon in late October? I was in my office after your visit was done that difficult day. You left the examination room after an emotional and raw conversation about resuming therapy and asked for my help. You imparted the bad news and plan, but it was my job to carry out your instructions. I held their hand, sat with them through mutual tears, and paused many times for collective digestion of the information. I explained the differences between their last round of treatment and the new plan. I talked about topics that are difficult and uncomfortable: financial consequences, physical appearance changes, every side effect from hair loss to sepsis, and the need to stay in town and miss thanksgiving at home. It was well after 6 o'clock when I escorted them to admissions and we parted ways. The lights in our department were dim, and everyone was gone. You needed me. They needed me.  Together, as a pharmacist and a physician, we spent weeks managing side effects for our patient, from nausea and vomiting to blood stream infections and transfusion dependence. I fought with insurance for drug approval, spent many weary hours in front of a fax machine obtaining charitable grants to cover copays, and plead with companies for patient assistance and free medication. We hopped from regimen to regimen, enrolled on clinical trials, and entertained the thought of compassionate use when precision medicine testing yielded a potential target. Weeks turned into months, and months turned into exhaustion. Despite all the awful things happening, our patient snuck treats into appointments and sent portal messages of their bucket list adventures, even if they became increasingly more home centric. Bad days started to outweigh the good as time marched forward. I was the first person to murmur the words comfort care as a potential next step just before we walked into the next visit. As a physician, you were angry at me for putting these words out into the universe and called me naïve. I do not think you intended to be hurtful, but I am reminded of my place. It was just shy of 3 weeks later before you and the patient made that mutual decision when chemotherapy was no longer an option, and visits with me ceased. My services were no longer viewed as necessary. I did not get to see our patient again, except for a couple of In Basket messages. I first read about their passing through an electronic medical record alert that I am entering a deceased patient's chart while data collecting for a project. Their photo is now gray, and their demographics are a stark red. The chart feels hauntingly cold. The obituary was filled with healthy pictures and beautiful memories. Did you read it too? I missed the memorial service because no one told me. I closed the obituary and took the back roads home from work. It was a beautiful June day, and the sunshine felt warm and welcoming through my open windows. I wanted our patient to feel remembered, even if my remembrance was not particularly meaningful. Over the next few weeks, I embraced all the things we talked about in our visits. I listened to Earth, Wind, & Fire, their favorite band. I went to the driving range and exploded with laughter at my atrocious hooks and slices. I visited the local ice cream shop and indulged in mint chocolate chip ice cream that melted down my hand from a gigantic waffle cone. I sat on the dock and watched the sunset from the best vacation spot in the Midwest: a Minnesota lake. A year later, I smile when my playlist cycles through their favorite song, but the weariness of this rhythm grows heavier. As a physician, I hope you will see this side of my practice and the human being in this story, someone who meets patients where they are and agonizes alongside you at the loss of human life; someone who is crushed by the same weight of bureaucracy, red tape, archaic rules, and biases; someone who fights against the archetype that a pharmacist should be seen and not heard; and someone who will relentlessly remind you that pharmacists are brighter than an insurance claim or copay frustration. I hope someday you see the person connected to the In Basket, e-mail, pager, or phone as a team member and not a referee. I hope one day you simply see me, utterly human and some days utterly broken.  Dr. Lidia Schapira: Hello and welcome to JCO's Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology, which features essays and personal reflections from authors exploring their experience in the field of oncology. I'm your host, Dr. Lidia Schapira, Associate Editor for Art of Oncology and a Professor of Medicine at Stanford University.  Today we're joined by Dr. Kristen McCullough, a Hematology Clinical Pharmacy Specialist at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. In this episode, we will be discussing her Art of Oncology article, “Do You See Me?”  At the time of this recording, our guest has no disclosures.  Kristen, welcome to our podcast and thank you for joining us. Dr. Kristen McCullough: Thank you for having me. Dr. Lidia Schapira: It is our pleasure. I like to start these conversations by asking authors to tell us a little bit about their reading preferences. Do you have a book you'd like to recommend or something you're currently reading that's captivating your attention? Dr. Kristen McCullough: I just started a book called The Measure, which I think so far is excellent. It's about everybody in the world that is an adult receiving a box, and in the box is a string purported to be a measure of the length of your life and whether people choose to open the box or not open the box and what you do with that information. I think that is so closely tied to what we try to do in our day-to-day jobs, which is kind of this foretelling, future telling, and whether or not people want that information or don't want that information and what you do with it. So far, excellent, incredible read. Looking forward to kind of seeing how it unfolds. So that's what I'm reading if you can call that fun, a fun standpoint.  Dr. Lidia Schapira: Oh, I hope it is fun.   Dr. Kristen McCullough: A fun standpoint. I did just finish a Masters in Pharmacy, Business and Administration so I did a big chunk of reading that was more business-y and that was more focused on leadership and culture and that kind of thing. Dr. Lidia Schapira: How fascinating. Well, the book sounds very interesting. So it's an interesting segue to your essay. What made you write and then submit your work to be read by Oncologists? In other words, the sentiment is very clear and we'll talk about the message. But what was the process that you used that led you to want to share this work through Art of Oncology? Dr. Kristen McCullough: I've written for a very long time, much of it personal. Obviously, this job is very personal. It's hard not to be. And so I write for myself as a form of processing and I wrote this particular piece a while back simply as a means to help myself understand where my frustrations and sort of my difficulties with this job come from. And not that it's bad difficult, but it's just ongoing how do you get through some of the things that everybody deals with?  The more that I read through it, it was a piece that I went back to time and again because the feelings continued to surface in a variety of different ways. I thought, am I the only person that feels this way? I discussed the sentiments, but not the article in specific with a couple of colleagues in pharmacy and they said, “Gosh, I feel this sentiment, who are we in the care team and where do we fall and what's our place?” And I felt like it was an important time to share that as our field grows, as our capacity on a care team grows, to make sure that people understand who we are and what we can provide and that we are important to patients in a variety of capacities. Dr. Lidia Schapira: Well, you sure are. You're indispensable. So thinking about this, I totally appreciate the sentiment that pharmacists are very important members of the multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary cancer team. But what you, I think, showcase in this article is that sometimes as individuals, they may remain invisible or not as visible as they ought to be. So what I heard in this article, and please feel free to correct me, but this is my interpretation as a reader is this is sort of a letter of sorts to the oncologist, the trainee, the attending physician, the clinical investigator who partner with you in clinical care. And what you're saying is look at the emotional labor of our work and we are often not recognized and not brought into the team in the way that we ought to be. Did I get that right? Dr. Kristen McCullough: Yes. I think we are being brought into the fold more and I want to do service to the people that I work with. I mean, that change has happened very gradually. I've been with a very dedicated group in the past 10 years and that is improving and growing. You certainly have to demonstrate your capacity to provide services and be available. But sometimes the greater sentiment when we try to remember who a care team is, we're very good at saying that our care team is physicians and advanced practice providers and nurses. And it just doesn't seem to sift down to saying and pharmacists. And I don't think- it's never a conscious exclusion. It just doesn't seem to quite get there. And sometimes that can be hurtful when it's heard again and again and again.  And I want people to remember that we make these tremendous connections with patients repeatedly. They are emotionally connected to us just as much as we are to them. And so when I lose patients, I feel that too, and I want to share that with my providers. I want to say, “Gosh, do you remember these incredible experiences we had and how funny this was? And do you remember their kids and their grandkids and the things that they brought to the table?” Because I was just as impacted by those experiences as I think that they were.  Dr. Lidia Schapira: You also talk about the specific expertise that you bring. What struck me, for instance, was saying,”We gave chemo through hemodialysis together, the advocacy part. We're the ones left looking for the authorization or helping people with payment.” And then you talk about the human connection of, “We are the ones who are left explaining what the treatment actually will look like, what the side effects may be of that particular treatment.” All of which is incredibly important for the practice of oncology both in a community or an academic setting.   And then you actually take us on. A bit more of a personal journey of what it felt like for you to learn that a patient had passed and how you found a way to honor that connection that you had and remember this patient. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that was like for you, this journey that you took with this particular patient, listening to the music they liked and eating an ice cream for them while you're watching the sunset on the lake? Dr. Kristen McCullough: Most importantly is I can read everything that happens to a patient in a hospital. I mean, we know every time they eat and sleep and sneeze. And so the more important part to me is if I'm going to send you home, particularly because our therapies are now far more outpatient based, is what are you doing at home that's good? And what are you not doing? What are you not participating in that you wish you could participate in? Because that's more telling to me of what my therapy is causing that's preventing you from participating or that you aren't doing because we told you that you couldn't. If my therapy causes some sensitivity and you hear that and you think, I can't go outside and how do I fix that? Because I want to make sure you go to grandkids' baseball games and how do we accommodate those things?   And so I try to listen for that, and what I get out of that is the human side of my patient, what pieces are important to them. And that's where you hear those things. What's your favorite music? What concerts are you going to go to? What are you looking forward to? If you could eat anything, what would you want to eat? What would make you feel better? How do I make that happen? If you could feel well enough to do anything, what's the most important thing for you to do? And I think that's what I remember most about patients is they wish they could get back on their motorcycle. They wish they could go fishing off the dock, they can't taste their favorite ice cream anymore, those kinds of things. And so that's what I remember. And I don't have a great way to memorialize patients. I can't go to funerals across the country. I mean, I can write cards and call families if it's appropriate, but I need a sense of closure in some of these instances. And so the best way for me to do that is to try and remember them through an activity that I think would make them chuckle, make them laugh, be like, “Oh, I knew she'd never get on a motorcycle. I knew she would never listen to that song from the 70s”, something like that. And so that's what I did for this particular patient, was think about the things that they did. And we laughed about try and process through that particular sentiment because it was just the only way I really knew how to when I wasn't part of the process for the rest of the team. When the death note comes through, and the nurse knows and the event practice providers know and the providers knows and the providers call the patient's family and they send a card and I just didn't know. So I had to kind of process in my own way and laugh.  I mean I'm a terrible golfer, horrible. I went with my husband and I can't hit a golf ball to save my life, and hooks and slices, and it was terrible and I laughed. It was good to laugh. It was good to imagine my patient thinking, “Oh, my goodness. She's just atrocious.”  Dr. Lidia Schapira: So I think this is the first time in the 20 plus years of Art of Oncology that we've presented a pharmacist, a clinical pharmacist point of view, and I'm so appreciative of that. We've been getting more and more stories from other members of the team who also felt somehow they weren't sufficiently recognized. And I wonder if you could tell our listeners a little bit about how you imagine that the care should be implemented to perhaps include clinical pharmacists in some of these activities that you say are sort of routinized by care teams but may actually leave important members out.  Dr. Kristen McCullough: I think the hardest part for me is when patients are making a transition to comfort care or to hospice. Include your pharmacist as part of that because we either have connections in hospice care - I've got colleagues in hospice care - or at least let me help the patient make that move as well. Can I help pull off medications that they don't necessarily need to be on so they're not at home on statins and all sorts of other medications that they don't need? Can we help have that conversation to make it easier? Even if I'm not part of that, then at least let me know that the patient has made a transition because I think other care team members are aware. And if there's support that I can provide in that, I'm really happy to do that. And then if the patient passes away, it would be nice to know and be part of that information piece as well if that's possible. Dr. Lidia Schapira: You bring up some very valuable points that I think could benefit care and could certainly strengthen the team approach to patient care that is sort of increasingly being adopted in cancer care. One is that you have knowledge that could help patients across these transitions of care, and two is that your input doesn't end when active disease modifying therapies stop. You still have a lot to bring. And then it's the personal part of really feeling that you're integrated into the care team. And I think perhaps wearing your new MBA leader, you can introduce some changes in your system and then kind of lead the rest of the country in thinking about how to restructure the role of the pharmacist and the care team. Dr. Kristen McCullough: We can dream big, right?  Dr. Lidia Schapira: That's what this is about.  Dr. Kristen McCullough: Gosh, that would be ideal. And there was a really nice article in the Journal of Oncology Pharmacy Practice that talked about the state of pharmacy care across the country in oncology pharmacy. And I think we have pharmacists in a lot of incredible places, whether it's clinics, infusion centers, specialty care, inpatient, but we're short and we've got a long way to go. So any advocacy that we have from cancer centers and providers to help us and to recognize the value add, it will be incredibly beneficial because we can't advocate alone. We need support.  Dr. Lidia Schapira: I know that there are lots of people who are reimagining cancer care and thinking about how technologies are going to also help us in the future. So I hope some of them are listening to this. I have one final question about this, and that is that from everything you're saying, pharmacists have a real connection with patients and provide advice and so on. What kind of communication skills training do pharmacists receive these days? Dr. Kristen McCullough: So you're asking somebody who went to pharmacy school a very long time ago. Dr. Lidia Schapira: You look very young to me. Dr. Kristen McCullough: It's been a hot minute. They do have rotations, specifically a year of rotations after they've completed their didactics, where they have to orient in a variety of care settings, so whether that's inpatient or outpatient, retail, hospital, etc., where they're introduced to the patient experience. Where they have to learn to interview patients and complete medication reconciliation, and learn to ask good questions and elicit good information. But I think a majority of pharmacists that most people and I don't want to be all encompassing here, but that most clinicians are seeing in outpatient settings and even in hospitals are working with have gone through a residency program. And residency programs are optional. They're a couple of years after you finish pharmacy school. That is where you kind of get a lot of really core experiences in specialty care that give you that experience working directly with patients. It gives you research experience, a lot of more academic if that's what the pharmacist is interested in.   But truthfully, and I will be honest here, we don't get a lot of good experience in how to manage death and dying. That comes from working with clinicians. And some of the very best learning experiences I have ever had have come with the clinicians I've worked with. The things that they've taught me in terms of conversations and listening have come from the people that I work with and I will treasure those experiences for a lifetime.   So, include pharmacists. Help us learn to be part of those so that we can help you have those conversations because patients talk to us about those things long after you've left the room and we need help learning how to do that and we learn best from you. Dr. Lidia Schapira: Thank you so much, Kristen. I think this has been a lovely conversation, certainly inspiring. And again, I think that there are so many opportunities to take your message forward. So thank you very much for the work that you do, for your thoughtfulness and for this lovely reminder or perhaps lesson for clinical oncologists.  Is there anything else that you'd like to tell our listeners today? Dr. Kristen McCullough: I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation and like I said, for the people that I've learned from over the years, it's been a tremendous experience and I'm looking forward to the continued endeavors to grow in this particular area.  Dr. Lidia Schapira: And we will be watching.  Until next time. Thank you for listening to JCO's Cancer Stories: The Art of Oncology. Don't forget to give us a rating or review and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can find all of ASCO shows at asco.org/podcasts. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions.   Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Show Notes Like, share and subscribe so you never miss an episode and leave a rating or review.  Guest Bio:  Dr. Kristen McCullough is a Hematology Clinical Pharmacy Specialist at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.      

Welcome to the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. I'm Jerry Hoepner. I'm a professor at the University of Wisconsin – Eau Claire and co-facilitator of the Chippewa Valley Aphasia Camp, Blugold Brain Injury Group, Mayo Brain Injury Group, and Thursday Night Poets.  I'm also a member of the Aphasia Access Podcast Working Group. Aphasia Access strives to provide members with information, inspiration, and ideas that support their aphasia care through a variety of educational materials and resources. I'm today's host for an episode that will feature Lauren Schwabish. In this episode, we'll be discussing Lauren's work on groups for parents with Aphasia and person-centered approaches to primary progressive aphasia interventions. Biosketch: Lauren Schwabish M.S., CCC-SLP is the owner of Neuro Speech Services, a private practice based in Northern Virginia, specializing in person-centered assessment and treatment of cognitive-communicative disorders related to stroke, brain injury, mild cognitive impairment, ADHD, and other neurologic and neurodegenerative conditions. Lauren received her Bachelor of Science degree with Honors in Communicative Disorders from the University of Wisconsin-Madison and holds a master's degree in Communication Sciences from Hunter College of the City University of New York. She is licensed in the Commonwealth of Virginia and state of Maryland and is a certified member of the American Speech Language Hearing Association. She has over 23 years of experience working in hospitals and acute rehabilitation centers and is passionate about providing meaningful and accessible health education about the brain to patients, families, and health care professionals. Lauren is committed to empowering communities with evidence-based information and best practices in brain health behaviors.   Take aways: LPAA is vital to understanding what the client wants and needs from you as a clinician Parents with aphasia encounter many of the same challenges that all parents experience as they're raising small children but this is further complicated by aphasia While work and other community obligations may go on hold after aphasia, parenting doesn't go on hold People with aphasia who are in the process of raising children benefit from peers who understand what they're going through People with PPA are still connected to their family and kids and need support in navigating everyday conversations that are necessary to parenting and participating in their children's lives Group therapy provides a safe and supportive environment for people with PPA to find supports or relate to others that have similar experiences as them Learn how to be “a purveyor of hope” for individuals with PPA and their families Interview Transcript: Jerry Hoepner: Well, welcome, Lauren. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. And I thought maybe it would be a good thing. If we kind of begin by introducing our readers to your experience as a speech language pathologist, and kind of what led you along this life path of participation approaches to Aphasia and that person centered approach which is really central to what it sounds like you do in your in your workplace setting. Lauren Schwabish: Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'm a big fan of aphasia access and the podcast is on my it's on my feed routinely. So it's really an honor to be here. I am like I said, a speech language pathologist for 23 years. I started out in I worked in New York City in a really big city hospital. There was, you know 2 campuses, a thousand beds each. It was literally everything under the sun, and I think that was my first experience. In really getting to the heart of what a what drives a person, what a person is all about because I was so different from the population. I came from a different place. I had a different educational trajectory. You know, this was a city hospital that had, mostly an underserved population, and it was in New York City. So it was tremendously, culturally diverse and one of the things I recognized instantly was that the way I would sort of drive compassionate and effective care was to really understand who I was working with and so I think from the from the jump, you know, just really having the humility to say, I need to sit and listen and understand this individual so that I can support their recovery from you know stroke, trauma you know, sort of acute illness. That was something that really just ended up making sense. So that was sort of my foundation. And then I moved into acute rehab into a hospital in Northern Virginia, where I am now and really just found, even though I was in a sort of a very medical setting, that connecting with the individual was absolutely the most important thing, and it was how I really felt that I could you know, show others how to do effective therapy. So I didn't know that it was life participation approach, but it was just really about understanding what the person needed to communicate about and in the hospital it's a different setting than in the community where I am now in private practice. But 21 years later, when I started my own private practice, that's when I really found LPAA as a principal, and could start to put some of the theory behind what I'd been doing all along. Jerry Hoepner: Nice, you know. It's funny. I was just having a conversation before we started this conversation, with Tami Howe, who is going to be doing a future conversation about the role of environment and accessibility in communication with individuals, with aphasia. And one of the things that we kept coming back to is exactly what you said, just getting just spending time listening and getting to know who that individual is as a starting point for really recognizing authentically what that person's wants, needs beliefs, values-  all of those things are and I think that's just a wonderful starting point for thinking about life participation, because it's easy to jump straight into the therapy or the assessment pieces. But what we need most is just to put our listening ears on, and really find out who that individual is and what makes them tick. So wonderful place to start. Lauren Schwabish: Yeah, and I would say that sometimes, especially when you know thinking about that acute rehab or acute care setting when someone's, you know, potentially very limited in their life participation, what they can do getting to understand like you said their beliefs. You know. What were they doing before they got to where you are? What can they teach you about? It's really honoring their strengths and sort of who they are prior to this acute illness. And so you can see them as that individual and they oftentimes can tell you more about that than you could. They may be able to from the from the, you know, sort of compromise place that they're in and it just feels right, you know, that's the one thing I tell. You know, when I was in the hospital, and I was working with therapists were so concerned about productivity and so concerned about billing. And just oh, my gosh! I don't think I have time to do this, and for me it's like you have nothing but time to honor this aspect of it, because once you figure out what makes this person tick, what excites them? What kind of music they wanna listen to what they don't like, you know, that's the foundation. And it shouldn't be something that's an afterthought to the skilled, clinical, hard skills that you have. It's really the first step, and it just when it works, it works well. So I think people just have to know that they have to have the permission, right from their environment, from their you know department, their supervisors, their peers, that this is actually very much the most essential ingredient to being an effective therapist. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, and what a refreshing way to start. I'd like to say that all therapists in the acute care context and that's the context where I worked for many years. But I'd like to say that they all get that but you're right. People get caught up in the fact that we only have a few days with these people, and we have a little bit of time, and we don't necessarily have time to devote to finding out who that individual is but what you're saying is that's central to being successful in helping them move forward with anything. So I really appreciate that as a grounding starting point and it really makes sense why, we're going to have a conversation today about what we're going to have a conversation about. I know Lauren, we talked about a couple of different topics. One being your passion for working with parents, and the topic of parenting with aphasia and that might seem like a leap to talk about that, and person centered approaches to primary progressive aphasia but when we think about that grounding principle of meaning, the person where they're at finding out what they value, I think it's going to be easy for our listeners to tie those pieces together. Lauren Schwabish: Definitely cause it's ultimately about a family, right? And it's not just a person with aphasia, but the person with aphasia exists in some sort of family unit, whether it's a partner, a friend, neighbors, kids, grandkids. And so, yeah, one of the things I have been privileged to be in is those 2 spaces? So I think I think, yeah, we can tie them together. And also just to hear that what this looks like with kind of 2 different sort of different populations, you know, thinking about parents with aphasia where the prognosis is typically so favorable, right? It's just lots and lots of improvement. They're typically younger, you know, we're seeing gains and everyone feels fairly optimistic, and that person with Ppa is going in a different direction. Right? But person-centered approaches are vital for each. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, that I totally agree. Family is what ties these topics together, and I'm sure we can think of a whole bunch of other related little niches of therapy that are tied together by family as well. So I'm excited to jump into this conversation. And I'm gonna begin with talking a little bit about the topic of parenting with aphasia, just a really interesting and important topic. So why is it so important to have communication groups or parents with aphasia? Lauren Schwabish: I why, I would say I'm a parent, so I can, I could speak with experience, that parenting itself is a 24/7 situation. And so when you have a parent who's been very suddenly affected by aphasia it is the one task, you know, work goes on hold. And sometimes, you know, operations in the community go on hold because the person's recuperating. But parenting really doesn't ever stop you know, children with, you know, whose parents have had a stroke or brain injury. You know they're up in the hospital. They're part of the therapy process hopefully, and they're in the community, or they're back at home with that individual and so I do think it's really important to give people who are raising children, and I will say, you know, we have lots of people who have raised their children. They're still a parent with aphasia. But this is sort of specifying that these are people who are in the active process of raising younger children and those are the people that are in the communication group that I run through the National Phase Association. When I speak to those parents they really are. They are seeking a safe and compassionate environment to discuss how to raise kids right? And that can range from talking about, how do you discipline a kid when you have aphasia, how do you talk to the teachers that a parent teacher conference? You know, how do you engage? How do you re engage your parenting skills when they've been sort of taken over by family members necessarily. But how do you sort of reenter that role again? And I don't know that for the parents that come to my group. They don't have that in their own parenting community, right? So, the friends that they had who were parents prior to their aphasia. They're not necessarily the same fit as other parents who have aphasia. So, I think that the group environment that we've cultivated is that safe space to talk about, you know, and highs and lows of parenting. Let's face it. Parenting is really hard. So sometimes it's, you know. Everyone just wants a place to kind of vent and again when you're venting with aphasia, it's not always smooth, but it feels really good, just like parents who don't have aphasia. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, what a what a terrific summary. And in response to that question, I I'm just gonna go back to the one of your earlier statements, because I think this is so true. When we think about someone in the rehabilitation process work stops and the community services, and all of those kinds of things stop, or at least they change significantly. But parenting doesn't stop as a fellow parent I can. I can guarantee I've got kids who are in college and just outside of college, and parenting still doesn't stop, but to be in the thick of raising small children. That that's definitely a a unique challenge so speaking of that, what are the unique challenges and needs of a person with aphasia who's also raising a child. Lauren Schwabish: Yeah, you know, when I think about the things that the parents in my group have raised, it's really I mean, it runs the gamut you know some of it is how do you read a book to your child when you cannot read how do you, you know, manage things like. There's one gentleman who's awesome. He had a stroke when his youngest daughter was out, and I think she was like a newborn, or she was essentially an infant. And you know, how do you navigate watching them start out? He was joking kind of at the same level language wise and then she's just accelerating. And you know, how do you navigate that? So, as the child's language is growing? How do you facilitate your own child's language development. We've had one of our survivors is she's made tremendous progress. Many years since she had her stroke. She had a situation where her daughter within high school, and there was a child who committed suicide, and she said, I don't know how to talk about this with my child, but I know I need to right, and that kind of stopped me and my tracks as a parent of high schoolers to think. Gosh! This isn't so much about the aphasia. But how carefully we have to word a conversation like that. Right? So it's really having those serious high stakes conversations. And then some of it's, you know, not as heavy, not as hard. It's kind of how do you, How do you reintegrate yourself with, you know, kids at the playground. How does your kid explain aphasia to their friend who's coming over for a play date, you know. How do you ween a baby, you know, sort of like all different things. So this is where it's sort of like, is it a group for people with aphasia. Is it a parenting group? Well, it's kind of everything, because sometimes we just wanna kind of talk about stuff. And it's you know, last month we talked about, you know, if I gave you a plane ticket and you could go on vacation, you know, where would you go? And would you bring your kids or not? Which was fun. Some people were like, of course, it bring my kids, and some people are like, Heck! No, I'm leaving them at home. I'm going on vacation by myself. So it's really fun. It kind of is the group itself. We really start out with 2 principles, which is what is I have these little smiley face cards, you know what's making you happy and what's kind of a struggle, or, you know, making you feel sort of mad. And that's just a really nice place to launch from. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, wow, terrific. And one of the things I kept thinking when you described the loss of kind of kinship or a connection between themselves and other parents who don't have aphasia, who are a parenting, I'm wondering about the relationships between the different parents with aphasia and each other from a peer standpoint. And what that looks like. Lauren Schwabish: Yeah, one of the women. She's in North Carolina, and she found the group after it had been running for a couple of months, and she says every time she's like, I'm just so glad you guys are out here because I did not know that there were other people like me. So, some of it is just seeing that there's young people who also have aphasia, who are also raising kids. So, some of it's just that environment. One of the things that I think was the most incredible was there's a speech pathologist who's in Texas who runs or she's in a program that think it's sort of an inpatient rehab a residential program. It sounds incredible. She had 3 or 4 young parents with aphasia who had recently come there, and she logged on from that facility and those folks were able to see survivors from, you know, one year, 2 years, 5 years, 7 years. And so, some of it is be able to show people who are just learning, you know, just getting a couple of words. You know, may be able to say the name of their child. Maybe you know one or 2 word phrases to see and experience what recovery looks like. And that was amazing. And one of the women who is in the program has since discharged home. And now she logs on, and it's fun to see her recovering quickly. But I just think that sense of like, and you know we hear it all the time like you just have to keep going. It is a marathon, it is. It is arduous right? And so for them to have that support and the spectrum of recovery. I think that's one of the things that is the most meaningful. Because, you know, it's of course, post direct depression, anxiety, especially for a younger survivor who's not only lost you know their language abilities, but probably it's also facing the fact that they can't return to work. That was one of our topics a couple of months ago. It was someone who was like, yeah, I hope I can get back to work and then come to find out the whole group shared, you know what they used to do for work, and a large majority of them. In fact, I think all of them, you know, in addition to parenting being tough, is they've lost their careers. Which is also a challenging topic. But, at the other hand, some of those long-term survivors say, but you know what? Instead of working, I'm able of, you know, volunteer at my kids school. I'm cheering on the sidelines. I'm attending that concert, and she said, I don't know that I would have had that if I was working. So, you know, I think the silver lining aspect is great, too.   Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so critical. I mean, even outside of the the topic of parenting with aphasia, to have to see people who are at different points along the recovery. And maybe this will come up when we talk about primary, progressive aphasia, too. But, for example, one of the things that we see at aphasia camp is often that people will identify with someone who's a little bit further along in the journey, and they might take sort of a mentorship kind of a role just to be able to say, this is what's coming. And you know, things get better and a little bit easier to handle. It's so positive from that standpoint. But I've seen the reverse true as well to be able to say. You know, this is a person who's longer, or, you know, further along on their primary progressive aphasia journey, and to be able to just know. Okay, so this is coming and I can kind of ground myself and prepare myself for these things. I think there's something really valuable about being able to see that continuum like you described. So Lauren Schwabish: agreed. And just that sense, you're not alone. You're not the only one who has this experience. Jerry Hoepner: I'm interested. So I mentioned that sometimes there's these pairings of people along the continuum. Do you see those relationships growing? And do people connect with each other outside of group or have particularly close connections with someone within the group. Lauren Schwabish: Yeah, well, I think the group is pretty new. So, we're sort of cultivating that I would say, one of the things, though, is, there's one woman shared that now that her kids this was back in, I think August, her kids had gone back to school, and she was like, I don't know what to do with my time. And another survivor basically sent me a list of ideas. She's like a support group Guru. She attends some in the Uk, some here. She really knew of a ton of resources, and she sent those to me to pass on to this other individual. So that's probably a great example of, you know, one person wanting to really cheer on the other one. There's that same woman who offered the resources is lives in the Chicago land area, and we had a one person who moved to that area was really fun. She ended up giving us a tour of her house on our in our group, which is really great. But that was a connection we made where we said, Hey, you know what? What are you know, the the strokes, survivor communities like in that area in Chicago. So that was really neat, too. So I think you know anytime I feel as a facilitator when I have a chance to match someone to either to peer to peer, or just for resources. In general. You know, one woman is like, I really wanna read. She has a 14-year-old, and she's just like there's a lot of reading that goes on with like middle school and high school and so we were just sort of like troubleshooting together, you know, on the side, just hey, you know, here's an audio book that we might want to try or here's something you could pair with an audio book. So, you know, it's it's just we have a space to share how you're feeling resources, I think, become evident when you're in that supportive environment. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, absolutely. I think those are perfect great examples of that connection between people and that resource and mentorship that they can provide to one another one another. I was kind of internally laughing when you you mentioned the middle schooler with reading, because I was thinking about when your children reach high school and college, and they begin to pass you up in terms of knowledge and intelligence. That's a hard time for any parent. Definitely for someone with aphasia or we're even talking about how to handle like cell phones and social media and technology. And like you think of how fast pace. That is, I can barely keep up. How does someone who has, you know, issues, maybe even with like sensory overload you know where there's video games going on and when you're really at that point, and you have to say something how do you find the words, you know? And so actually, one of our, you know, again, longer term survivors like, you know what? I just text my kids. And we have a couple of emojis where they know what I'm saying, you know. So I think it's really neat. And that way, too. It's just sharing those examples of like modern day parenting. And what does it look like when you have aphasia? Yeah, that's fantastic. One of the things I was going to ask you about is the kinds of topics that come up. But you've shared a few social media and how to support someone with reading and all of those topics. But what other kinds of topics typically come up in these groups.   Lauren Schwabish: I think for the parenting group, it's really about, how do you keep your language skills going? Because I think a lot of these folks are, you know, not necessarily continuing to receive skilled interventions from speech pathologists. And so some of it is. Just try to like, how do I use my environment? Or how do I have strategies to sort of resume participation? There was one woman early on in the group, so it was a smaller group and she was going to meetings with her High School senior about college and graduation. And so we were sort of just coming up with, like, what are some words that you'd wanna have ready, you know, application. And you know, tuition. And so even just kind of brainstorming a way to support her participation in that. So that was something that came up. A lot of it is sort of what are your kids excited about? And I think that that's one of the things I always close that group with is gratitude. Just because it's such a wonderful it's brain, healthy activity. And almost universally the parents are talking about their kids. They're grateful for their kids. They're grateful that they got to you know that their kid was well behaved at school, or they're grateful that they got to go on vacation, or they're grateful that they want to swim meet. So sometimes it's also a chance to brag, you know, to really shine a light on the things that your kid is doing. You know, that's a fun thing to be able to do. And again, in a fast-paced environment, you know, when they're with their neighbors, or they're with the kids at, you know, other parents at school things just go quickly. And so when it's a time to just slow down, and we'll just sort of popcorn it around the Zoom group. Where everyone has a chance to just share something that their kid is up to and that's been really neat to one of our members is from Canada in BC, and so we didn't really know, you know, geographically where he was. So I was. You know we were looking at the map, and we were figuring out where everyone else is from, too. So sometimes it is just it's about that community and some hot topics that are coming up. Weather was one of them where everyone was talking about you know the wildfires where he was, or how do you, parents when it's so hot out. You know, it's really typical struggles. It's just, in a way, it's probably not that different from a normal parenting conversation. We just use language support and give people tools. They need to be successful contributors to that conversation. Jerry Hoepner: That's a pretty strong litmus test for being meaningful and person centered to be able to say, it's just the stuff that every parent talks about. Now, this is just a community that scaffolds that for people with aphasia, so that they are a part of those conversations and can be a part of those conversations I love that that's fantastic. Yeah, really wonderful. Well, knowing what you know now, and other, what other resources would you like to see available? To this community of individuals with aphasia from a parenting standpoint? Your wish list. Lauren Schwabish: We talk about this, my wish list. So one of the things that I'm I'm trying to, you know. It's hard because we only meet once a month. I wish we could meet, you know, more routinely, but is, of course, when you have kids it's really hard to plan, you know and get together. But we've talked about this over. Several different meetings is, what would we like to have available? I think certainly books or resources videos that are for parenting, about parenting that are aphasia friendly. So like, how do you, parent? You know a toddler? I know, I read books when I was raising my kids. You know, I read books currently about like teenagers and mental health. You know what resources are available that are aphasia friendly. And where can we find those books and do those books exist? And can we write those books? So some of it is just typical parenting advice but made aphasia friendly. That's something I would love to see. And we have a couple of different books that people have recommended, and I think we said we could link those in the show notes so people could try to. You know, find those. But of course, this is probably one of those moments where someone will get inspired and create them, you know, create that resource in the future. I would like to have some tip sheets again, based on what my parents in with aphasia, have recommended about how to engage in conversation in the community when it comes to parenting. So, for example, how do you talk to the pediatrician during a checkup? Right? How do you make sure that your voice is heard, that you can fulfill that role of parents versus someone who's just sitting in the room when there's you know, someone else speaking? How do you talk to a teacher at a parent-teacher conference? So some of it I think it'd be again scripts or recommendations or advocacy. I have a like we've all seen them sort of. I have aphasia, you know, cards, and we I've shared that with that group just to try to say, like part of your job is to be a presence in the school community, right? So like, how do you do that? So even like a guide? Again aphasia, friendly, something that would allow them to participate in these pretty routine parenting situations. And then I think, what I'd really love, and I don't know, you know. I hope someone out there is thinking about. This, too, is to think about how to record stories or videos with just those words of support. So that if you're out there and you have a young parent with aphasia on your unit in a hospital where you could go to Youtube, or you could go somewhere and say, Hey, you know what? Here's words of wisdom from people who've been where you are. If I could record a snippet of the conversations that we have, or the words of wisdom that one parent passes on to another. It would be so. I think, reassuring in a really scary time I think it would be inspiring. You know nothing that's too heavy a lift that doesn't need to be, you know, a feature like film, but just something that would be a collection of stories that someone could watch and just gain a little bit of sense of, okay, you know I'm not alone and people have done this before me, and they got better. And I can, too. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, that seems to be a recurring theme that I'm not alone, and I can connect with people that really get this. Yeah. II love your wish list, and I hope that some of our listeners are inspired to create those resources. And you know, as we were talking, II just couldn't help myself. I jumped on to Google Scholar, and I wanted to see what was out there for research in this area. There's not a lot, and I know that Molly Manning has written a little bit about this, and I think Brooke Ryan has done a little bit of work recently, but there's not a ton out there. So for all of you academics out there, too. Like what a terrific topic! For someone to research into, to learn more about this. So I'd love to get those testimonials and words of parents out there as well. So feel like we're just scratching the surface of this, and a lot of work needs to be done. But what a great kind of call to action! That the need for groups for parents with aphasia. So I really love, love that conversation, and thank you. Anything else that we're missing, or we should add, before we move on. Regarding. Lauren Schwabish: No, it's like, I said, running, the group has been wonderful. And I just think, if you even have 2 people, you know, it doesn't take like we have people from all over the country that come to the National Phase Association meeting once a month, you know, the second Wednesday of the month. But it doesn't take too much to operate it, you know, Zoom Link. And so I think even Matching, or you know, Peer matching someone else just to recognize that this is a very this is a population that's gonna live with aphasia for a long time, and you know they're the needs are high. And so even if you can think about a peer mentor, or some kind of connect in your greater community. You know, this is really a population that's thirsty for it, and they want it, and they will. They will pursue it on their own. Once you sort link them up together, and then hopefully, the rest of us can come up with some great resources to fulfill that. You know that that connection. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, excellent. And certainly, if there are people listening, thinking, what should I do? I want to do something related to parents. Wow! What an opportunity to step into! There's plenty of plenty of room for that support to go around. So really inspiring. Lauren, if it's okay, I'm gonna shift gears and talk about a very different conversation. But one that, we said, is definitely linked through that kind of family. Principle, family centered principle. And that's the conversation about person centered care for individuals with primary, progressive aphasia. Can you begin by just sharing a little bit about your perspective? What drives you, your underlying theories for this approach? Lauren Schwabish: Yes, and I will say, for my, you know, 23 years of experience. I am very new in the Ppa space, mostly because I was working in the hospital system, and that's not where these individuals are found, you know. So for me. Once I started my practice, and someone said, Do you treat primary, progressive aphasia. The answer was, of course, yes, but then it was very much a well, how right? How do I do this? And so diving into you know, all sorts of education. Looking at, you know, resources that are available. I've really appreciated some of the work on the raise framework in terms of really not thinking so much about all of the testing, but really thinking about what does this individual need to do? And how can I identify as much personally meaningful stimuli as possible, because that's the only thing we should be focusing on, right? So I think to that end also, it really clarifies what my approaches and forces me to be as efficient as possible, and then really be flexible. There's one gentleman in particular I'm thinking about where, you know, we've started out, and he didn't really require too much in the way of language support. So it was more like, what do you want to talk about and maintaining, you know, a multimodal language, practice opportunities. And then, as things have gone on and change, we've really run the gamut from like starting, you know, starting with an iPad, and you know, a higher tech, aac option, and then kind of seeing that that's not really going very well, or it is a little too challenging for this particular family, and then very quickly pivoting to something that's more accessible. So yeah, it's to me. It is it is a family centered situation, and you know it's interesting.I have a wonderful aphasia center near me, and I love them, and I refer everyone to them. But they are very much clear that Ppa and sort of that aphasia community center feeling doesn't really work well in their experience. And so I brought this, you know, again to the aphasia access community to, you know, at the Leadership Summit, and said, You know, how does this work? And it's just really complicated. And what you'd said earlier about, you know a family being able to look ahead and say, okay, this is what I want. I have found in the Ppa clients that I've had. They actually avoid that because I think they don't want to see it. It's too much, they've said, you know. And so I tried to be a little bit of a matchmaker. I had 2 gentlemen, both with primary, progressive aphasia, you know, scientists very loving wives, you know, really like they were so ideally suited to connect and it was almost like they didn't want to see this other individual, even though it would have been wonderful for them to connect there. I just found and this is probably happened in, you know, 75% of the cases I've had so far, they are reluctant to see someone else with. Ppa.   Jerry Hoepner: yeah, interesting and I think that's one of those challenging things where we have to like your principle of matchmaking, and where we have to think about how we get there, right? Because there's always things that we don't want to talk about, or we want to avoid to some extent. But there's always a a bit of us who knows there's a need for that, too, and finding ways to make that threshold of building those bonds and those relationships is definitely a part of that even if it doesn't start out with. Hey, talk about what primary progressive aphasia looks like further down the road, but just to be able to build some of those peer connections? Lauren Schwabish: and not know that, or know that you're not alone. I think that that idea that we talked about with families as well. So yeah. And what I found probably is a more successful avenue is really sustaining those family connections. So that's where I found that sometimes the community of course I want them to be able to see someone who's, you know, just as bright, who also has aphasia where things are changing. But what I found greater success in is looking to the sort of family as a community and saying, What can we really do in this contact, so that you can continue to, you know, ask your grandkids about, you know how school is going, or give advice to your you know newlywed son about you know life nowadays, you know. So, some of it is really trying to figure out how can I use those family connections? And then to me and anyone who knows Ppa knows it's so much about counseling. So really, being a provider of I would say hope and I think that that's one of the things that really is important is to say we can still have participation, meaningful life activities, even though things are getting to look a little different. And so the one family I'm thinking about. They have this beautiful vacation house on the bay in Ver. In Virginia, and you know they love to go on vacations like this is a family that lives a great life and they really feel that they have to kind of reel it in, because, oh, my gosh! You know Dad has aphasia, and you know what if? What if? What if? And my perspective is? No, we need to make sure he's still going on vacation. And here's a communication tool, so that you know we can do that safely. Or here's how we're gonna navigate his communication in that situation so that he can participate. And that's probably been a great source of creativity. And also kind of success. Is the family as community? Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, absolutely involving those family members and allowing them to make those connections, as it, you know, as if they're comfortable. And that principle of hope cannot be overstated right? Just how important that is to keep people engaged, because as soon as you start thinking about the downside that's when you want to just withdraw and kind of close in on yourself. But that hope is the light that people need to see in that moment. So completely agree. From your perspective, why is this person centered approach so crucial for a person with primary, progressive aphasia and their family. Lauren Schwabish: I think, as we see sort of the deterioration that comes. you know there's so many there's so much value. And really looking at who you're you know who you are. Who is this individual? And so, being able to remain connected to things. They are passionate about friendships they've had forever. You know things that really get them excited. I have a gentleman who is like a he was a food researcher, a food scientist, and he actually absolutely loved being in this professor role. And you know, all of a sudden. He's his family is, you know, very attentive, and they're, you know, bustling around and doing all these things for him, and he just lights up when he gets an opportunity to explain a scientific concept or look at a scientific journal, or attend a conference like we encouraged him to go, and he attended a conference, and we practice the names of the researchers he was going to meet. And you know questions he might be able to ask and I think so much of it is. You know we're looking at someone who's essentially fading away, and that's so scary. And so if I can say, who are you? You know what's important about you? What should I know? What should your family maintain? And then we build a communication support system around that I think it allows them to continue to see the individual, even though there's a neurodegenerative process. And so things like I had one client who wrote his own obituary, and in doing that he gathered all of his. You know he was he had a lengthy Cv. He had done all this wonderful work, and so it was a chance for him, and it was of his own request he wanted to do this and I just said, Let's go because it was a chance for him to relive his professional connections. It was a chance for him. Talk about you know, areas of study where he had contributed. So to me, it's really about preserving the identity and recognizing and being able to have a again a tangible communication book, memory book, whatever they want to call it. Practice words. You know, stimuli photos. Anything that really says this is who I am And so that remains a touchstone where families can say, you know, even if the level of support changes over time, we still can have that person and be that person. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, II think that's just another one of those grounding principles. I I'm not making fun of you. When I say this, you've said who I am or who you are multiple times. And and that focus on identity is so crucial. And I think another piece I've been really into reading work on personhood, and that idea that yep, this person is fading. Their cognitive and language abilities are changing but they're still intelligent human being inside. There's still someone who deserves your time and attention, and still has many of the thoughts and kind of knowledge of their life. I think really important for families, and anyone who interacts with them to just recognize that personhood and and that identity of who they are. Lauren Schwabish: it's also so easy to see what's going wrong or what could go wrong, that I think, also maintaining someone's competency and finding ways to reveal competency to families is so important. So like my one of my clients is much better at writing than he is at initiating verbal language, and so for him we haven't texting people right? And they are sort of like rolling their eyes like he's got his phone out again. And I'm like, yeah, cause that's how he's gonna communicate with you. And he will text me pictures and videos from family gatherings. And you know, it's really become a tool that shows his competence. And so you know, that's another opportunity. And why skilled intervention is so important even in the scheme of neurodegenerative disease is because there's always something that we can do to show that person and show what they're able to do. We just have to think of the way to do it. Jerry Hoepner: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. You came to Aura Kagan's principles of acknowledging and revealing competence in a time when someone is like you said, fading and and losing some abilities even more important that we hold onto those principles. So I'm really interested. What does that look like in a session? What do your sessions? How do they look? Lauren Schwabish: Yeah, it's every session looks a little bit different. Some of it is. I just want them to introduce themselves to me. And that's usually what I'll say is, you know I'm new to you. What can you show me? What can you tell me? And what can I look around in your environment. And I'm so fortunate in the private practice I've constructed is I'm a mobile therapist. And so I get to go to people's homes. And you know, even just being in that space can tell you so much and so you know, trying to really invite opportunities. Knowing how to ask the right questions. You know a lot of those carefully constructed open ended questions and then trying strategies here and there to see what really helps support someone's language. So I have one gentleman who he's he loves cricket and you know there's really no cricket on when I'm at his house but he and I have discovered over working together that having written notes as I'm listening to him, and I'm capturing, you know, content words and keywords he's able to say I write them down, and then he and I kind of have them on the table in front of us And so with cricket, He wanted to tell me. I said, I've you know I've played it like long ago. I really don't ever get to see it. What can you tell me? What can you show me? And then giving him a a vehicle to do? That drawing was a perfect way for him to show. You know, and this is a gentleman who's no longer writing. He's actually not really using any texting, or, you know, ipad, he has all of these devices. Unfortunately, not a lot of them are. Does he really feel comfortable if he could engage with them? But again, it's about what he would like to do. But a pen and paper was so effective and so with that, as he's drawing the sort of circles, and and you know the the lie out of the pitch of cricket. He's suddenly writing numbers, you know, and then he's able to point to those numbers and express those to me. So that's one version. One of the things that I talked about at the aphasia access summit and was really fun is looking at photos on the phone. So another gentleman the one with the big family, and he's always taking pictures. And so what we had discovered was this captioning strategy where I could just swipe up with him, and because his writing is a strength, he's then able to put in the names or events of family members into the photos. And that's been really fun. So that we're really trying to find that strategy where he can continue to use the stronger modality in the context of ample stimuli, because this guy takes pictures of everything. And then, as he's sort of declined a lot of it is trying to meet the needs of the family, so making sure that they know what communication supports are. Some of it's just thinking about safety, too. You know, making sure that right off the bat, this person has some sort of identifier on them. For stuff that's starting to get lost. How do we use technology, you know. Air tags and tiles and all those cool things. How do we maintain his independence and community? And that's been tricky lately is, you know, providing education resources related to driving. And how do we know when it's time to stop driving? You know these are sort of things where I have become just a trusted advisor to the family. And so, if I have a resource, I think that's important that we recognize our roles look so different in these sessions. And that's okay, because what we're doing is we're providing again, person center care trying to highlight what their priorities are and support the family. So that they can make that happen too. Jerry Hoepner: Absolutely. Since the aphasia access summit that swiping up for the captions is something that I do quite a bit lot of my people. So I really appreciate that. I'm glad you brought that up again. Yeah, I feel like this has really brought us full circle, and with that emphasis on the family and the person as the core. Really. I mean family identity, and what that individual wants and needs to do what drives them. Seems to be at the core of these approaches, and that definitely aligns with what aphasia access and the life participation approach is trying to accomplish. So thank you for your insights and and creative ideas about this anything that we missed in terms of the discussion about primary, progressive aphasia or parenting. Lauren Schwabish: I will just say that as someone who's sort of like done this by my gut instinct. It's so wonderful when I can go to the research. Not so much for the parenting is like you said, there's you know I it's not a ton of ample of evidence body of evidence yet, but it is so reassuring to have access to meaningful research that really supports You know just an Lpa approach it as a clinician like boots on the ground. I've really valued that I've loved podcasts and resources. I've had access to in terms of counseling. I think validating that counseling is important. I'm grateful to the fact that you know we even payers like Medicare. You know that there's a space now for the role of a skilled speech pathologist to follow along and to perform therapy over the course of a neuro, degenerative condition. You know, I feel like sometimes I've heard. Oh, you know, I think I'm guilty of this when I was working in the hospital setting, and someone would come in with some sort of acute process but then there would be dementia. I really feel like I was like well, they can't learn, or you know they I was so dismissive of someone's capacity. And I have changed completely in terms of being able to say, you know what there's individuals I work with, whether it's Ppa or another dementia process. Just to be able to say there's always value in finding a communication system or communication tool to really allow that person to connect with whomever they want to and so I think the fact is that I'm in a community that, you know is is interested in that. I have a practice that is, you know, working well because of that I'm able to get paid by payers because of that. So I really think it's important for people to recognize that. We can fulfill such a valuable role and there's actually wonderful resources out there that will justify this approach. Jerry Hoepner: Totally agree. Yeah, there's always value in fostering participation. Whether that's going to help someone recover, or whether that's gonna help them. You know, in their in their decline gracefully, and to remain engaged as long as they can so totally agree. Well, thank you, Lauren, this has been a fantastic conversation. I know our listeners are gonna value your clinical insights. So thank you. And it's been really nice talking with you. Lauren Schwabish: Oh, it's been a joy. Thank you so much.   Jerry Hoepner: On behalf of Aphasia Access, thank you for listening to this episode of the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast. For more information on Aphasia Access and to access our growing library of materials go to www.aphasiaaccess.org. If you have an idea for a future podcast series or topic, email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org. Thanks again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.

In this episode of "Student Affairs Voices From the Field," Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Dr. Eric Stoller, the VP of Marketing and Digital Content at territorium, for a conversation about the evolving landscape of higher education and the role of technology in student affairs. They discuss various trends in higher education technology and how it impacts both academic and student affairs divisions. Dr. Stoller traces his journey from his early experiences as a marketing specialist at the University of Illinois, Chicago, to becoming a respected thought leader in the higher education technology space. He emphasizes how technology has become an integral part of the entire higher education experience, noting the importance of CRM tools, mobile apps, and the shift toward hybrid and remote learning during the pandemic. The conversation delves into the changing value of higher education credentials and the importance of measuring and verifying outcomes related to critical thinking, skills development, and employability. Dr. Stoller discusses the growing focus on micro-credentials, badges, and the idea of a learner's "digital wallet" to showcase skills and experiences. They also touch upon the need for interoperability in higher education technology and how data and analytics will play a more significant role in student affairs, helping institutions understand student needs and provide better support. The episode concludes with a discussion of the evolving role of student affairs in helping students navigate diverse pathways to success, emphasizing the need for personalized support and pathways for learners, regardless of whether they complete a degree. This episode sheds light on the transformative impact of technology on higher education and how student affairs professionals can adapt to these changes to better serve students in an evolving landscape. Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues! Transcript Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]: Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay, Voices from the Field host today on SA Voices, I'm pleased to bring you a conversation with Eric Stoller. Eric is the VP of Digital at territorium with over 20 years experience in higher education and education technology. As a Strategist writer and thought leader, he founded and led a global higher education consultancy from 2010 to 2019 and created the Student Affairs and Technology blog for Inside Higher Ed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:46]: Previous Ed Tech roles include leadership positions at list. Ed tech element 451 and Gecko engage. Earlier in his career, he was an academic advisor at Oregon State University and a marketing specialist at the University of Illinois, Chicago. Eric. Earned an associate's degree, a BA in Communications and an EDM. In College student Services Administration. Eric, welcome to SA Voices. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:07]: Thanks so much for having me, Jill. Great to be here. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:09]: It's really great to see you. For our listeners, Eric and I met, I'm going to say 2005 maybe. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:16]: I think dinosaurs were just still roaming the earth. Yeah, it would have been 2004. Five Oregon State University in Corvallis, Oregon. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:25]: I think we were just escaping the trends of dial up internet and smartphones weren't smart yet in that time. So Eric and I actually worked together in the Office of Student Conduct when we were graduate students. So it's really lovely to see old friends and see careers blossom. And I'm really looking forward to talking about your transition today because I think you have a really unique one for someone who received their master's in Higher Ed. So would love to start with if you could tell us about your current position. And we always like to begin with a good come up story. How did you get to your current seat? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:01:57]: A good come up story, I love that. Well, so my current role is Vice President of Marketing and Digital Content at territorium, which is a global ed tech company that is all about bridging education to employability. And we'll probably get into that later on in the show. And it gets highly technical and I can't wait to dive into that. In terms of how I got into this seat, it is a long, winding story that started on a gravel road in Iowa, and I'm not going to bore your listeners with the full, you know, I went to community college, went to university. I thought I was kind of done with higher education. And then I actually started working at the University of Illinois at Chicago way back in the day in marketing and just loved the work. I was located within Student Services, and that's when I sort of first learned about what student affairs was even all about. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:02:42]: And was, as I am today, still very much into technology back then. And even I remember calling up Kevin Krueger, who's now the executive director for NASPA or the president of NASA. I'm not sure the exact titles nowadays, but Kevin and I had a conversation when I was very new to the field, and I said to him, why is the information Technology knowledge community, as it was known then, why is it gone? Because they had just gotten rid of it. And his first thought or question know, who are you? And I said, yeah, I'm just new professional, kind of bothering this leader of this association, or at the time, I think he was the associate director. Anyway, I went out to Oregon State, as you referenced, and I got my master's degree in higher education. Worked in a variety of different areas from enrollment management, financial aid, registrars, kind of a stint at Student conduct, was an academic advisor. And then during that time when I was an academic advisor, I started writing for Inside Higher Ed. I started the Student Affairs and Technology blog and just loved that experience as a writer for Inside Higher Ed. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:03:41]: And it was also at that time when I started getting invitations to go out and do some freelance work and consult for institutions and speak at events. So I stopped working full time for Oregon State and I became a consultant for nine years in the US, the UK and beyond, various global events and working with institutions all over the place. And the focus was all around digital engagement. This was when sort of social media was kind of coming into its own still and really focusing on how student affairs divisions could just transform what they were doing with all things digital. Because the origin story of student affairs is one that it was all about face to face, one on one experiences with students. And technology was seen because my Grad program, it was what, 2004, when I started, and technology was seen as this kind of gets in the way of that student experience. You fast forward to today, almost 20 years later, and the idea that technology would be separate from the student experience is something that people would never think about. It's really connected deeply. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:04:40]: And so I had this nine year experience as a freelancer, and then I started working for a higher ed chatbot company that was based in the UK and Scotland and did that for a little while, went back to Freelancing, and then I worked for a higher ed CRM company. You're getting kind of a theme here in terms of my Ed tech experience, right? Sort of chat bot to CRM. And then we moved to the Netherlands in 2022 from the US. And so I was doing Freelancing again, and a connection of my wife, professional connection, started talking to me about this potential marketing role at territorium, and they were launching their kind of US presence. territorium as a company has its origins in Monterrey, Mexico, and we're all over Latin America in terms of providing testing and a learning experience platform as well as our comprehensive learner record. But we hadn't really had as much of a presence in the US. And so we launched this US team back in December of last year that's for listeners on the call. I can't even do the math now. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:05:42]: Right? 2022. And so been with territorium since then and leading on all things marketing and digital combination of leading, strategy, producing, execution, go to market, a lot of things that are not part of our Master's degree program that Jill and I went through, but connected to both my undergraduate experience as a PR and marketing major. And then of course, my deep connections and network into higher education have kind of got me to this place. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:10]: So I'm going to just do a quick backup to a terms definition. You mentioned CRM, which might not be a term that's familiar to those in Higher Ed. Can you define that for us? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:06:18]: Of course. So this is where things really get interesting because as you know, every institution in the US kind of does things differently. If they're a college, they're a university, they're a community college. The structures, the systems, some institutions have divisions of student affairs, some have smaller sort of scale depending on their organization. But the one thing they all have in common is they all recruit students, they have admissions and they have recruitment. And whether they use a higher ed specific CRM, which is back in the day, it would have been a Customer Relationship Management tool, which is effectively how you keep track of who you're trying to recruit and communicate with them and engage them on a level from maybe they're a junior in high school or if they're an adult. Learner how you're connecting with those folks through a variety of communication vehicles like email, SMS or maybe a chat bot. How it's all interconnected. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:07:10]: So there's the Gargantuan CRMs out there like Salesforce or I happen to be working for Element 451, which is a much smaller shop, but they have quite a few clients as well. That's the CRM. I think the interesting thing about being in Higher Ed is I always say that you live in an acronym soup because you've got all the associations for higher education, all the different tools and platforms. You've got the SIS, the Student Information System. I mentioned the Comprehensive Learner Record, which is shortened down to Clr, which is a record of skills and experiences and credentials for learners. That goes far beyond the transcript because it goes inside the classroom and outside the classroom. So that's the clr. And so, yeah, if we need to, we can have a glossary of Terms attached to this podcast. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:07:53]: In terms of all the acronyms that I might mention, I think for Higher Ed pros, most of these things you're already familiar with, you just didn't know. That's what it was called in corporate land, but things you're quite familiar with. I think the one that we've been using lately is Slate in terms of our CRM for prospective students. It's quite a popular rising one right now. So you do know these things. You just maybe got a new term to associate with it. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:08:15]: I think if you work in enrollment management, if you're in the admissions side, you're in these tools on a daily basis. I think it's one of those things if you're in student conduct or academic advising or every sort of functional area has its set of digital tools that it uses on a day to day basis. But when I was at Oregon State as an academic advisor, I was in banner every single day. And so that was the tool of choice. That's from Elusion. In terms of providers, I'll try not to too much name dropping, but I think that in terms of the Edtech universe, there's so many different providers because so many different functional areas require just different tools to help with the work that they're doing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:53]: One of the reasons I was really looking forward to our conversation is because you can talk about transitions in the digital space. A lot of the conversations we've had this seasons are personal transitions in career, which you've certainly had. But I think one of the things you've always had your finger on the pulse of in higher Ed is how digital kind of arenas, the digital vertical for higher education has really changed and reshaped the way that we do the work in our campus based positions. So I'm wondering if you can talk to us a little bit about that process and what you've seen in terms of trends and bed tech field is really new 2030 years in terms of its boom. So any trends that you're seeing in terms of how educators are using these tools really well, yeah. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:09:34]: I mean, I think it's always good, like you said, to kind of look back where things were. When I was writing for Inside Higher Ed, I remember going to EDUCAUSE a couple of different times. The annual Educause Conference, which is kind of a giant ed tech convention. And most of the providers back then, those events, they were very much focused on the academic experience side of things. There weren't a lot of providers that were doing things that would even slightly sort of go into the student affairs areas. And now you fast forward to today and Edtech providers are in kind of every single space within institutions. As we've already referenced, the CRM tools have become extremely important because with the approaching enrollment cliff for that traditionally aged population, which is kind of a loaded phrase anyway in terms of what is traditional, but that sort of 18 to 22 year old, that population of university, that's a decline. There's just not as many young people that will be going into higher education. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:10:33]: And so the CRM becomes a tool that is even more important as you communicate, as you hone your message, as you try to showcase the value of your institution, of the degrees that students will receive and earn and other systems as well. I mean, it used to be the digital experience was much more based on the staff or administrators who were at their desk with a big screen and students would come to their office and they would sort of navigate a system on behalf of the student. And then mobile apps kind of really entered in in a meaningful way. And no longer are students sort of tethered to an individual and their desk and their office, but they can look things up on their phone and they can access a variety of services. They can ask questions to 24/7 chat bots. They can look at their course schedule. They can look at various activities and events on campus. Now, of course, when you said this, you referenced the question. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:11:29]: You kind of framed it as on campus. I think what the pandemic did was it showcased the need to serve and support students who weren't necessarily going to be on campus, or at least accelerated. Maybe more of a hybridized environment where students were on campus for a portion of the time, but they were also on their computers at home because it used to be that all your lectures were in a big auditorium. And then the idea of the sort of the flip classroom came into play. Professors were recording their lectures and students could listen to a lecture at home and so that the discussion would actually happen when you went to the classroom. And then with the Pandemic, it sort of said, okay, everything's going to be remote for certain people. And it was interesting because you start thinking about how did student affairs serve learners, who historically student affairs would have been saying, okay, in res life, there's no such thing as remote. Students are actually physically located on campus. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:12:27]: But then say, what about the other side of our institution that was serving adult learners or online only learners or people that were coming in for micro credentials, they were never going to set foot on campus. They maybe came once a year, if that. And so technology has really embedded itself throughout the entire higher education experience because the higher education experience has changed. It's such a blended, multimodal thing where students are learning through their phones, they are communicating like we are right now through zoom or other media like this because you don't have to be bound to a certain geography. You could be in Iowa and studying an institution in Oregon, or you could be in Berlin and studying at an institution in South Carolina. So the variety pack now and I think that's where I think back to our higher education master's program. And the fundamentals that we were taught were still very much constrained to a sort of model that was still constrained in some ways. It's like know, we were on a basketball court, for example, and we knew where the boundary lines were for everything, and we knew, like, okay, here's the two baskets, and we know how things work. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:13:39]: But then all of a, you know, I live in Europe now imagine if that basketball court was transported to a football pitch, which is enormous in size and different boundaries and different scope and scale. And I think that's where higher education finds itself. It's having to, as a sort of nebulous thing, now recruit students that in the past might not have been recruited because, like I said, that enrollment decline for a certain demographic, and so all these technologies are really coming into their own. For instance, the territorium, one of the things that we've been really talking about a lot is this idea that why do people go to college? Why do people pay the bill? Why do the people get into debt? Most of us were not financially wealthy enough to just pay for school right away. You have to get a loan. You pay your student loan off over the course of a lifetime or however long it takes. And what's the value of higher education? Right? Yes. It's the experience. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:14:30]: It's about giving back to your community. It's about access. But by and large, most people go to university because they want to improve their overall employability or their chances for a career that will perhaps lead to financial stability because that's why they're doing it. And higher ed, I think, for the longest time, hasn't really talked about that. We shy away from that. We shy away from the fact that people are going to get their BA in English, for instance, and they're going to get in $50,000 worth of debt. But they're doing it because they love writing, they love the work, they love the art. But at the same time, is there a connection to employment at the end of that journey, or are universities just leaving students in debt? And so I think that's where you may have heard people talk a lot about the skills based economy. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:15:16]: And I went to community college for my first two years. I got my Associate of Arts. My brother, he went to the same community college. He got a two year technical degree. That's what he has, a technical degree. And he has done really well for himself career wise. And I think one of the things, when people hear the word skills based economy, they think, well, that's more technical or community college workforce based. But universities are really getting into that space now when it comes to micro credentials and badging and trying to sort out the sense of, okay, it's not just about a pretty campus. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:15:48]: It's not just about a winning football team. It is about what's the direct correlation to you get this degree or you get this credential and it's going to have a direct impact on your success? Because right now I think there's something like 39 million Americans have some college but no degree, and yet that accompanies that with a ton of debt, right? So there's a lot of issues there. And so how do you take folks who have maybe some college but no degree and let them showcase the sort of skills that they have, even though they don't have the diploma, because they might have a transcript that shows that they've taken five classes, but at the same time, how do they show that to employers? Because employers look, traditionally, employers wanted to see the diploma or that you've earned your 40 year degree or you've earned your Master's or whatnot. And so I think that part of the things that higher ed has had in the past is, okay, we've kind of built this foundation of these are our core technologies. But I think there's this transition to, okay, what are some of those core technologies that might need to change, might need to evolve? Because if you're a registrar, for example, you need something more than just a transcript because you're no longer just awarding ABCDF, you are awarding micro credentials. You're giving badges away to students. Faculty members are sort of looking at, okay, my students are learning these skills during the course of this particular class, and now we're going to award them badges that never would have happened 510 years ago. And now you've got employers saying, hey, we are going to hire students based on these skills that they have that are verified by the institution. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:15]: Those are really important points because what we're seeing is a transformation of the value of higher education that's not just US. Based, that's globally. Because when we look at what a degree means, I believe it means something extremely different to those of us working in the academy, to those folks that are outside of the academy looking to employ people who need individuals who can demonstrate critical thinking, problem solving skills, technical knowledge, all of those things. And that's part of what the degree is designed to do. But I would believe that, especially at a liberal arts institution like mine, we're teaching ways to think, not just facts and figures and things like that. And you need both. So the question is, how are we transitioning not only our offerings at the university as a whole from a credentialing perspective, but how are we also doing that in student affairs? And how can technology support those transitions for what the work needs to look like? So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:18:12]: Yeah, well, I think part of it has to do with the fact that because you mentioned critical thinking, critical thinking is a huge part of the experience of higher education and a lot of student affairs programs the underpinnings of those programs definitely includes critical thinking, equity conversations, cultural diversity conversations. And I think that all those aspects, they just weren't measured in the past. Right, so what did you actually learn throughout your experience that wasn't in the classroom? NASPA, for as long as I can remember, has always talked about learning reconsidered. Right. That learning happens throughout the experience of a student, regardless of where they are on campus, off campus, in a class, outside of the class. And so I think that is part of the work that student affairs is going to have to do going forward, because there's a lot of scrutiny right now, obviously, on institutional budgets and outcomes. And the two big R's, of course, are recruitment and retention. And student affairs plays a big part in both of those areas. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:19:08]: And so I think that the student affairs side of things in terms of transforming kind of what was done to what is being done and what will continue to be done, is going to be verifying and measuring those outcomes so that there's a tangible way to sort of I mentioned badges earlier. How many student affairs divisions are awarding badges to students? You think a lot of times about badges is maybe coming from the academic affairs side of the house. I think that look at Career Services shops, look at the evolution of Career Services because like career centers, they have probably one of the most important roles at institutions. And yet for the longest time, not so much now, but for a long time it was, okay, I'm a junior or a senior, I'll go and talk to career services kind of at the end of my institutional experience before I graduate. And now you see Career Services, they're front loading their engagement with students. So they're at orientation, they're there at first year experience courses, and they're also working alongside employers to connect students to this idea that this is just a step in your journey and we're going to try to help you along. And so I think we're going to see a lot more student affairs divisions awarding badges and getting into the LMS, getting into the badge systems, either coming directly out of a clr or it comes from another provider. I think that's the other thing with this is Ed Tech providers have been very insular in the past. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:20:28]: Like, we've got a platform and it only works with our platform. And so student data is kind of stuck in this database that's very proprietary and an organization called Oneed Tech, unless you're really deeply involved in sort of the Ed Tech space, you might not be aware of them. But one of the big facets of their work is interoperability sort of this idea that all these digital assets that students have are like Lego and that you can kind of plug and play them independently of a certain system. So, for example, if you have a digital wallet, that has all of your badges and has your skills, your credentials, all that stuff in there, you can take it to another institution. Kind of how students transfer from community college maybe to a university, but usually that's with a traditional transcript. But the overall vision will be learners will have this wallet of all of their verified skills and experiences and credentials that they carry with them in an interoperable plug and play type way. And so the sort of sovereignty of learners becomes a much bigger part of the conversation because there's a lot of data that has been part of this as well. And in student affairs, we don't really talk about data. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:21:36]: We don't talk about sort of the technical piece because we've been so much about the soft skills, the one to one. If you want to be a dean of students, you're not necessarily getting into a huge portion of the data unless maybe it's connected to retention or some other issue on campus directly. But the Ed tech space, there's so much data that is coming out of that. And so the thing I think will be interesting to see with student affairs throughout every functional area will be the various dashboards and analytics and outcomes coalescing into a space where you can sort of see, okay, where are students at? What do they need? What kind of support do they need? How is that going to influence things that we're doing programmatically as well as for the next as a student goes to another institution for the kind of a handoff, so to speak, because it won't just be your data is stuck at some institution. It's going with you. It's actually traveling along with you, and it might be enabled in some sort of bitcoin wallet that's kind of independent from an institution that's kind of a buzword. But at the same time, that's kind of the ultimate goal, I think, for a lot of companies that are thinking more about the openness of all this. I mean, when you think about the space that I'm currently in and how we interface into higher Ed, it's not just know, NASPA and Acro are playing a big part in this. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:22:53]: Acro is the Admissions and Registrars Association. They're kind of the home of registrars professionally and technically. Usually that's where the transcript resides. The Lumina Foundation, the big organizations focused on learning and outcomes over the years to even Walmart, because Walmart, I think they're the largest employer in the US. And one of the largest globally. They employ a huge number of people. And so they're thinking about the pathways from higher ed into different careers. I think the pathways piece is one I also want to introduce to this conversation, because it's important to give learners pathways even if they don't graduate, so that people aren't just left with debt and a handful of credits. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:23:31]: What is it they're actually going to be able to get, even if they don't finish. Because as you know, Jill, sometimes success for one person is just a couple semesters of college and that is like a hugely successful outcome for them. Whereas for a lot of other people, maybe it's graduation, maybe it's master's degree, maybe it's a certificate. Success is very much an individualized thing. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:51]: Still, it's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]: Jill's, so excited to be back again in the NASPA world. A ton of things happening in NASPA. So many of us have been hearing a ton about artificial intelligence. We are starting to explore it or delve deeper into it on our own college campuses. And in the most recent Leadership Exchange magazine, which you all have access to as a member of NASPA, the editors and authors of that magazine did delve deeply into artificial intelligence in the Metaverse and really asked a broader question of whether our profession, whether student affairs is ready for this. It was a fascinating article and definitely a fascinating magazine. To delve much deeper into this topic. I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website and you can go under publications to the Leadership Exchange magazine and log in and be able to read that for yourself. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:03]: If you want to check out all the different professional development opportunities, and I know I share a lot of them with you on a regular basis, but if you go under the Events and Online Learning tab, you're going to find everything that is happening within NASPA and around NASPA, all the different professional development opportunities that are available. And this is a great way for you to be able to find things that connect with your professional growth and professional learning that you want. And it will open up opportunities for you to be able to see different ways in which you can grow and learn in your own professional journey. So lots of things happening in NASPA, lots of ways to stay connected with NASPA. Start at the NASPA website, naspa.org, and go and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:24]: And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back each week? We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas. That will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:19]: A wonderful NASPA World segment as always, Chris, we really appreciate you keeping us updated. What's going on in and around NASPA? Eric, we are now at our lightning round. I have 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to roll? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:31]: That's like one of those if a train leaves Chicago heading 5 miles an hour kind of questions. I'm ready to go, Jill. Let's go. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:36]: All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:42]: Well, I've been a conference keynote speaker for many different events, so I always like to go with the Glitch mob. They were always pretty good. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:49]: Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:27:52]: When I was five years old, I was a little kid in Iowa on a gravel road. I think I wanted to be probably an NBA player because then I would have pavement. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:01]: Number three, your most influential professional mentor. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:04]: Gosh, there have been so many. I'd say one of the most influential professional mentors I've ever had. Just one. So Kevin Krueger, when we were doing our pre show talk, he's been an instrumental part of my career over the years, and I always appreciated his leadership at NASPA. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:20]: Number four, your essential higher education. Read. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:23]: I would be remiss if I did not say Insidehired.com. I Know that Scott Jassic is retiring as Editor co Editor Of Inside Higher Ed. It's still, in my view, one of the best sites out there for comprehensive coverage of what's going on in higher ed. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:37]: Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:28:40]: Oh, gosh, that was years ago now. The best show? Well, my second son was born during the pandemic, and I watched ridiculous amounts of things late, late at night. I would say some sort of Scandinaro thing on Netflix, because that was kind of what I was into at the time. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:56]: Pandemic's been over for years for you. It's only been over for eight months. Where I'm at. Number six, the podcast you spent the most hours listening to in the last year. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:29:04]: I would say anything from the Enrollify Podcast network. I like the work that they've done. I feel like their shows are really put together nicely, and there's always interesting topics in terms of higher ed innovation and technology. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:17]: And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:29:20]: First of all, I'd just like to say thank you to Jill for asking me to come on the show. I think that it's always nice to reconnect with folks from Oregon State. So I'll just give you a big shout out because it's been a blast to follow your career sort of vicariously through social networks and social media know you've been just a huge leader around the globe. I mean, you've been everywhere, it seems. So I'm going to give Jill a shout out because I don't think she probably gets enough on these things. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:45]: Thank you. Appreciate it. Eric, it's been such a joy to catch up with you. I've also followed your career just on social. This is the strength of weak ties. I'll cite Granavetter here as a scholar that I read a lot in my public administration doctorate program. But the Strength of Weak Ties, we haven't spoken maybe ten years probably, but it's so lovely to understand and see how we're both contributing, knowing we started off as babies in grad school. And it's very nice to see what success looks like and means for various people from that time in our lives. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:15]: And if folks would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you? Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:17]: Territorium.com? Or you can always just Google Eric Stoller. Something will come up, most likely. My email is Eric@territorium.com. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:25]: Eric with a C. Exactly. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:27]: E-R-I-C. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:28]: Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us. Dr. Eric Stoller [00:30:30]: Thanks so much, Jill. It's been great. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:32]: This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:58]: We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton Seth Me produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]: Special thanks to Duke Kunshan University and the University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

The paranormal comedy podcast where we probe the alleged sighting of Abraham Lincoln, after Honest Abe's death. Abe has been seen down the years by such honourable and trustworthy folks as Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and Winston Churchill.  Abe got more than he bargained for in one of those sightings… Unless that is exactly what Abe wanted to see. Gosh damn. Alongside this, there are shenanigans as Mr Moonwalker gives Greybeard the choice that Moonwalker, never, had. All that and more on this weeks file.      Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/butitwasaliens   Store: https://butitwasaliens.co.uk/shop/     Probe us: Email: butitwasaliens@gmail.com Instagram/Threads @ ButItWasAliens Twitter @ ButItWasAliens Facebook: @ ButItWasAliens - join Extraterrestrial Towers     Music:  Music created via Garageband. Additional music via: https://freepd.com and via Purple Planet at www.purpleplanet.com - thank you most kindly good people.

On this episode I'm joined by Nychelle Schneider, also known as Mistletoe Kiss, a moderator from the Blades in the Dark discord and contributor to The Wildsea, the upcoming Dagger Isles supplement for Blades, and Underground Maps & Passkeys among others.Nychelle brought on the idea of customizing existing games, homebrewing mechanics for your table (or even publication). This is... a big conversation, chock full of cool ideas that I hope people take and run with. There are so many games out there, and I think there's so much to be gained by making stuff that can plug into and enhance other people's art.Nychelle also has so many interesting trains of thought about in this episode, many of which I didn't follow up on as much as I wish I had. So I encourage you to listen to what she says, and then take those ideas an run with them. I hope that every week, but especially with this one.Further reading:A post-show blogpost about Sam's joke Blades playbook The BoogeymanBlades in the DarkNychelle's Blades playbook The SurgeVincent Baker's blogpost Apocalypse World Custom AdvancementTim Denee's Dogs in the BarkSam's Blades crewsheet Spirit ChasersSam's Blades downtime hack Doskvol BreathesSeveral zines by Aaron King of PBTA moves that exist outside of games: Reading the Apocalypse, PbtA23 January Digest, and PbtA23 February Digest Socials:Nychelle's website, Twitter, and itch.The Blades in the Dark DiscordSam on Bluesky, Twitter, dice.camp, and itch.Our logo was designed by sporgory, and our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Grey.Join the Dice Exploder Discord to talk about the show!Transcript:Dice Exploder: Nychelle===Sam: Hello and welcome to the season 2 finale of Dice Exploder. Each week we take a tabletop RPG mechanic and pull it apart like your dad fixing a broken vacuum. My name is Sam Dunnewold, and yes, this is the end of Season 2. We've laughed, we've cried, we've funded a whole friggin Kickstarter, and we are now going to take one hell of a break, because damn am I tired.I'm expecting Season 3 at the end of January, but we'll see how it goes. And in the meantime, keep an eye out for a number of bonus episodes I got planned. I've got that Mork Borg and accessibility episode recorded. I'm plotting out a, like, let's celebrate this year in RPGs panel show near the end of the year, and I may have a couple of other treats for you too.But this week, my co host is Nychelle Schneider, also known as Mistletoe Kiss. I knew Nychelle first as a moderator on the Blades in the Dark discord, where she's a community leader and just General encourager of everyone who stops by. Just a lovely human being. But she's also contributed to like a million projects the Underground Maps and Passkeys charity bundle of Blades content I put together a few years ago, the Wildsea, the upcoming Dagger Isles supplement for Blades. She's made A lot of Blades content. And when I asked her to come on the show, I was delighted that Nychelle wanted to talk about just that: adding your own mechanics to existing games. This is a big conversation. It's so full of cool ideas that I hope people really take and run with. There are so many games out there, and I think there's just so much to be gained by making stuff that can be plugged into and enhance other people's art. I've done this a lot with Blades myself, and I just never get enough of it. And Nychelle has so many interesting trains of thoughts about how to do this in this episode, many of which I didn't follow up on as much as I wish I had.So I really encourage you to listen to what she has to say carefully, and then keep pushing at those ideas. I hope that every week, but especially this week. So, with that, here is Nychelle on adding to existing games. And be warned, we get right into it, no hellos or anything. Okay, uh, here we go, prepare your ears for game design.Nychelle: I think a lot of times in game design, we can get caught up a lot in making sure that things function a certain way or are laid out in a certain way that's very easy for the audience or the reader to pick up the book, read it, and then go ahead and produce it.And I think a lot of times that we can get bogged down in mechanics to where we're like, oh, this is the only way you can do this.Sam: Mm-hmm.Nychelle: So like D&D, everyone knows d and d. Everyone's also like, oh, well, we obviously fight them. No, that's not the only thing you can do, but why is it baked that way? Why is our assumption perspective always that? Oh, it's because of how it's written or how it's presented, gives you a certain paradigm for you to interact with the material in a certain manner.And so for me, I like playing with that. How can I interact with the same thing? If I'm handed the same object 14 times, how can I interact with that object 14 different ways or give flexibility to somebody else who play with it in a different way that I didn't even think about. And so that's what I really do do a lot of thinking of what I create mechanics is how much fluidity is built in while it's still having a structure.Sam: Yeah. Interesting. So I think it would be useful to like immediately jump into like some examples of what you mean. So what's one example of what you're talking about?Nychelle: Oh gosh. I would say a really good example of this is in the Blades in the Dark custom playbook that I created called The Surge, which for those who are listening, you can find it on my itch. And one of the abilities is called Can I Learn Rising Moon? And essentially you can gain temporary access to a veteran ability you currently do not have, and you start a four segmented clock. So anytime you go to access this ability, you have a clock that begins, or you add a tick to this clock. And then when the clock fills, the GM will bring in a special entanglement or situation or something that happens. And that is one way that I've really got to enjoy a twist to mechanics and games is adding more flexibility because it opens up a whole new possibility of how you can play with a particular dynamic.Sam: Yeah. Part of what you're talking about here and part of just knowing your history as a designer is that you seem to really enjoy making moves and making abilities and custom content for other games than making your own games from scratch. Do I have that right?Nychelle: Yes, it's a really weird thing. But I find that my creativity, especially when it comes to game design and mechanics, I can talk mechanics all day long. I've got a really, really good grasp of game mechanics. But I also love to build things fiction first. I am definitely a fiction first, mechanic second gm. I've had a regular table, oh gosh, I think we've been playing now like seven plus years or something together and I absolutely love baking and things, but I also love jumping off of somebody else's creativity.So like when I wrote for Wildsea, it was a ton of fun because I got to go through all of the course material and whatnot that Felix had written. And it was really great being able to take little hints or tips that he kind of wove into the core and build upon that and flush it out into something that was even greater than what initially he had planned.So, yeah.Sam: Yeah, just to, to speak personally, like I think it is really hard to come up with an idea from scratch, but it's much easier to find your groove in someone else's framework. Making custom content for games is like that. And to that note, I really wish more people did it. I think you see a lot of people making custom modules and adventures and stuff in this sort of OSR and the NSR scene. But for the story game scene, the tradition is much more to make your own game from scratch. Or at least like, to make a game that is inspired by, but functionally different from and standalone to another game. As opposed to making content that can be used with something like Blades in the Dark or The Wildsea.And yeah, I think it's easier to get started from making content for other people. I think it's really, really validating, and I think more people should do it.Nychelle: Yeah, I also think that, it could be something that is within the industry, but I think there's a lot of expectations of hat wearing when it comes to technical writing or game design specifically, because everyone thinks, oh, I have to do everything. I have to learn how to do layout. I have to learn how to do editing. I have to do the writing. I have to learn the artwork or find somebody who's willing to work with me on that. I have to learn publishing, I have to learn finance regarding hey, am I, publishing this to individual game shops or a big name? Contracts? Like there's so many different hats that we just expect to discover ourselves.Which is great. It's a wonderful way for a person to diversify their skills, learn something, being like, Hey, I really enjoy layout, but I really hate editing. Or like, I have high respect for people who do edits because they come in and they change like four little words in this one paragraph, and suddenly like, I sound so much more eloquent than I was before. But there's alsoSam: I, I just worked with an editor for the first time and it wasNychelle: oh my God. Yeah.Sam: Go on.Nychelle: But you can also learn in so much when you work together as a team. So like with the Blades in the Dark Dagger Isles expansion that we did, there was so many writers that were a part of that.I did the playbooks and crew sheets. But there were so many different writers and people who were doing the setting and the factions and the lore and like the crafting. And I would go ahead and run games for them and then we would just sit back I would just hear all these stories and wonderful aspects of like, oh, well, that's actually a piece from our culture, and you can connect that to this and that. And then we would just have a brainstorming session and I would have so many notes from every single session of like, oh my God, this is amazing. And then I'd try to weave that into the crew sheets and everything, and I have so much fun with that.Something I, I learned at residency for grad school was, what are your verbs doing? What is your verb poetry? And I was like, what is this thing you're talking about? Because we had to bring in pieces and workshop them and. It was so amazing 'cause I had one mentor who essentially like took everything out of this one scene and just read the verb poetry of it.Sam: Hmm. Nychelle: And it was like, what are your verbs doing? And then changing up like two of them, legit, only two of them, and removed another thing that didn't need to be in there. And then the verb poetry was just so different. So thinking of like how to apply that to like gain, like what verbs doing a certain passage is just like a whole different way to view it.Sam: Well there's, I was just talking on some server about this, how I was playing The Exiles, em's game, and, in the middle of the campaign I was playing, she put out like a very slightly tweaked version of the rules where essentially all that had changed was a couple of words here and there in order to make the layout, the graphic design of a rules reference page feel a little bit better.And a couple of the words that had left changed the entire vibe of like a whole move in a way that I thought was much worse. And so I just kept using the old rules because I wanted that, like two words of poetry to be in there. It made such a difference at the table. Nychelle: It really does. And I think that's another thing too, is like when you get in the editing, like I don't like editing, first off. I will hands down like editors are amazing, wonderful people and I will 100% hands down pay them what they actually deserve, like the, the work that they do. But there's also, I was talking to Felix about it, when he was doing layout for Wildsea and there was a phrase that he used, but you can't leave off with only like two words or like one word on a sentence. Like if it's the end of a paragraph or something and you start a new line and there's only like two words, you have to cut two words, so it goes back up into the other one. Otherwise it doesn't look correct. Mm-hmm. You can't have, your orphans there. Yeah, that may have been the term he used. But sometimes the words that they wanna cut are the poetry words, Sam: I know Nychelle: and it's like, oh gosh, I can't have you cut that. It's like, you take out my two words, Sam: yeah. You Nychelle: ruined the entire thing. My words have no meaning now.Sam: Sometimes, when I get that note, I'm like, what if I just add a couple of words instead? And, like, that doesn't always work. Sometimes you need the space. But sometimes it does make sense to like inflate the duration of a sentence so that you can keep a couple of those poetic words I think.Nychelle: But also I think that changing up how your verb poetry happens or something else that one of the mentors mentioned was we, especially nowadays, are such in a... not political correctness, it's probably the wrong term for it... we try not to have infliction, personal infliction upon something we say. It's passive versus active voice. You're separating yourself and it's, it becomes passive. And so when you have that in your work, even if it's a technical writing such as game design, you are already putting a barrier between your audience and the words for them to be engaged.And then if your verb poetry is a certain manner and adds another barrier, and by the time they get down to the end of a passage or something, they're not engaged. They don't have the buy-in that you want, and so they're gonna go ahead and walk away.And that's another thing too that got mentioned is a lot of, just kind of like a little side tangent, but a lot of people who are not English first speakers, when they write in English, it becomes passive, not active. 'cause that's how a lot of other languages are set up. So it's kind of a weird thing where they're almost at a disadvantage from being engaged, with their audience. It's kind of interesting thing.But we do the same thing in technical writing. In game design, we do that passive versus active. Sam: Totally totally. So, I want to veer us back to the subject of hacking games for your table. And specifically, I want to talk about one of my favorite blog posts in the hobby. Uh, which comes from Vincent Baker, designer of Apocalypse World, called... Apocalypse World Custom Advancement. In which he gets the question from a reader: “is there any solution that lets players play the same playbook potentially forever?”And Vincent's answer is, yeah, just hack the game. Keep hacking the game so that you can keep playing the same character. And specifically how, like hacking the game such that the rules accommodate really powerful characters because a game like Apocalypse World or Blades can I think really see the characters outgrow the setting that they're in pretty easily. And at a certain point it starts making sense to change the game so that the world can keep up with the players.And Vincent in this post has a bunch of good ideas for how to go about doing that. And you know, there's some great ones too, in the Apocalypse World Rule book and in the Blades in the Dark hacking the game sections.I think the idea of you're going to extend your time with one campaign and one game by bringing your own custom moves to it, by bringing your own hacking and custom materials to it, is really cool.Nychelle: Well, a game core isn't supposed to be the only material we take into a game, is it? It is meant to be a diving board, a foundation for us to go ahead and move on from it. That's the whole point of any particular game system core is, okay, now here's your foundation. Now go on, evolve it, build upon it, take parts out, change things like that's, that's a whole dynamic of what happens at a game table.And one campaign I did for Blades in the Dark was we wanted to really interact with the faction game. How does the mechanics behind factions really interact with each other? And so we did an entire campaign for a year and a half just on factions. And brought in our own factions and did different clocks and things like that. But like we learned and also grew so much just out of taking one particular mechanic and saying, okay, how are we gonna play with this here? And how can we grow this? Because the core should never, I think that's one thing is we should never limit ourselves to strictly one particular thing. We, we should forever be evolving and changing it to make what we enjoy because that's the whole point of playing games is to do something we have fun with. Right?Sam: Yeah. Yeah. That's really fucking cool. Because you are absolutely right, like fundamentally what you are doing at the hobby is making your version of Blades in the Dark.A theme of this season of Dice Exploder has really been that the flavor level of a game is as much mechanics as the like rules level of the game. And every group is bringing their own flavor to play and thus hacking the game. And sometimes you get like, you see someone like Tim Dinee putting out like on the one hand, Dogs in the Bark where you're playing Blades in the Dark as a pack of dogs, which totally works. This supplement is so simple and quite short andNychelle: Dude. I have done like a mini campaign with this. It is legit the best, especially when you play some of like the rat factions as if they're from like Brooklyn and New York. It like the, oh man, it's it's amazing. Sam: It's amazing. And then of course, when you switch back to regular Blades, like suddenly every rat and dog in the city is gonna be like someone you know. Right? It is gonna be amazing, but. Also, it's such a goofy take on the game.And on the other hand, he has also put out Blades in '68, which I guess isn't out yet, but is this moving the tech level like a hundred years in the future for Blades into this like seventies themed almost setting where war is over, superstition is gone and we're doing a much different vibe on the original thing. It's gonna feel really different.And then of course, like I'm coming in like hey, you should, play Doskvol Breathes, this downtime hack where you're just taking like three sessions to play out one downtime. And other people are coming in saying, yeah, I uh, I just like pick my two downtime actions and move the numbers around on my character sheet and get back to the next score 'cause that's the thing that I like.And all of those versions of the game are really valid and really exciting.Nychelle: Oh yeah. Now there was one experiment I did and I've kind of done it throughout Covid. I have run one particular, one shot, six different tables. Same setting, same scenario, everything. Not a single ending was identical. Six different tables, and it was like, it's the same scenario, it's the same setup. You have the NPCs and everything do the exact same thing, and there was a different ending for every single six of those games, which was just amazing.When you think about what a player and what a group of players being a variable can do to a game, so if you're doing that with mechanics, if you're changing a variable in a mechanic, you know that you're gonna get something completely different.Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think people should not, like a mantra I have about doing this, I don't know if I picked this up from someone else or not, is nothing is safe. Like you should change everything when you're doing this. Just play with everything for your table and what it means. I think this is actually from the Vincent Baker article I was talking about earlier, that really if there's a mechanic that you are using, mess around with it and see if there's something else you can do with it, but do it with intention. Like try to figure out what the purpose is for the thing that you're trying to accomplish. Like I just wrote a custom move last week playing in my regular game where it's like a pirate themed game and someone got a necromantic book. It's me, I'm the someone, I got a necromantic book that can summon a kraken when you cast a spell right. And we just like wrote a move for what happens when you try to do that? 'cause it should be a little bit bigger than just pickin' up some dice and rolling to see if you did it. You know, there should be a little bit more to it than that.And having, this is something I love from this Vincent Baker article, from the Blades in the Dark hacking the game section, is the encouragement to write moves, special abilities, mechanics, whatever you wanna call them, specifically for like named people and objects and locations in your game.There's a, an example one from the Vincent Baker article that goes: “If Groam gets his hands on you, he ties you to a table and you know he is really fucking good at that. If you try to escape, roll plus hard.” And like, then there's a bunch of options for like, specifically what happens when Groam has tied you to a table because he's really good at that.It's just so specific. It's so tailor made, bespoke to whatever table had this character Groam at it and doing that in games is just so exciting.Nychelle: Oh yeah, one of my favorite things as a GM is I've had plenty of players that will just fill out a character sheet and they're just like, yeah, my name's Bob. I'm this alignment. Or sometimes they, they won't fill out the descriptors or, or like, what they look like. They're just like, it's Bob. It doesn't matter what he looks like. But no, no, Bob actually matters. Tell me how Bob looks. Does Bob have a particular person he really likes to talk to and why? Tell me if Bob has a special butter knife that he does and he only uses it on scones. Why does Bob only use this particular butter knife on scones? Well, there's a story behind it.And drawing that story out or encouraging your table to do that, I just absolutely love because then I can have this whole thing on Bob's scone butter knife, or maybe it's a flashback score where, you know, Bob really wanted to stick it to the man, and this is how he does it because he stole so and so's butter scone, you know, for, for being outed a coin or something. Like when you start customizing or home brewing, even if it's just at your table and for anyone who's listening, you don't have to be a game designer or this person that has like all this knowledge of what not to change your game.You simply focus on your table, what you guys are comfortable with, what intention you have behind it and go from there and build it out and change it that makes sense for you guys. Sam: Yeah, the, the secret is if you're playing these games, you're already a game designer Nychelle: Exactly. Sam: But don't tell anyone. Yeah.Nychelle: Everyone's a game designer in a certain flavor or aspect. But yeah. No, it's really great when you start doing that because it also makes 'em more personal. I had a recent conversation with Allison Arth. And we were talking and discussing what does gaming actually mean? And we essentially brought it back around to it is an intended and created community. And I think that really also speaks to game design too, or changing the game, is being really intentional about how you curate and cultivate a community that you're interacting with through game design, mechanic change, maybe even the environment that you're playing with at the table.Sam: Have you ever like, changed a major rule of Blades that's not like a special ability or anything like that, but like, a more generic rule at the table?Nychelle: Mm. One I haven't really played with too much though I am looking forward to it, is magnitude. This mechanic that I feel is very much a backbone in an aspect of how you can do the thing, but also it doesn't really get brought up a lot. I find, and I feel that it doesn't really get brought, it's more of like a backseat mechanic that gets done. I.Sam: Yeah. Gosh, I should have uh, pushed us to talk about this as the whole framing device for this conversation. But that reminds me of Broken Spire, which is a blade supplement by Sean Nittner where you are starting from a place of trying to kill the Immortal Emperor. You're already on that score. Then every time you do something you like flashback to an entire score of setup in which you prepared another thing in your final attempt to kill the Immortal Emperor.And the downtime system in Broken Spire works like mechanically very similarly to Blades, but the downtime actions have all been changed so that they have much more impact on the game. Nychelle: Because you're, you're working not in micro anymore. You're working on a macro scale. And, and I think that's a, a thing that we a lot of times really get stuck in the micro. And don't realize how much the micro can impact the macro of what is actually going on or how much it doesn't impact what's going on in macro.Sam: Yeah. Yeah.Nychelle: I, I have not had a chance to play broken Spire, but had a couple of conversations with Sean about it, and I am like, dude, I, I need to play this. Sounds so badass. Sam: The, the idea of like one of the downtime actions is “say how you shift your heat to another faction. Roll for your action.” So instead of like reducing your heat, you're taking all of your heat and dumping it onto an enemy. And another one is like you just reduce the tier, the entire tier of an enemy faction. Which is wild. There's like, you're just gonna like casually in your downtime, fuck up an entire organization. Maybe it happens off screen.Even the idea that you could be taking Blades in the Dark, which by default is so much a game about like scrapping your way up from the, like bottom of the streets, you get just a couple of changes and suddenly you are monarchs of the underworld destroying factions left and right at your whim. It's so cool.Nychelle: Oh yeah. And I don't even think you're necessarily just of the underworld at that scale. You're impacting the politics, not only locally but the faction and, and the consequences of those actions across the Shattered Isles. Like there's so much that could be going on here. It's really fascinating to think about, but also to consider that of like, yeah, no, that's, chump change.Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Another, related idea to all of this that I've been pouring over in my mind a lot is the idea that the scarce resource in RPGs for me, right now anyway, is not new games and new systems, it's new settings and especially new scenarios.Like for example, I don't need another variation on Powered by the Apocalypse. Like even if someone's gonna write like a hundred beautiful moves across seven playbooks and all the rest, I'm sure they'll do a better job than me, but the thing that excites me about a new game is not what is it doing differently mechanically, it's what is the premise of the thing itself.Nychelle: Mm. Sam: in part because I know I can bring all of the tools that we're talking about here, of ways to change the game, to take a different system and change it to fit whatever the idea for this game is whether or not you've included a package of rules with your, your setting. Premise or you haven't. And that's just another thing I wanna put out into the world again, that I want to see more weird stuff to do, not ways to play the game. I have plenty of ways to play RPGs. I want more weird ideas, like story ideas that I can bring to my table that I otherwise wouldn't have had myself. Nychelle: Well, that's why you play fiction first, Sam. No, I'm joking. But no, it pretty much is because honestly, learning how to hack the game, learning how to really grasp mechanics, and like lines and veils and like, there's a whole plethora of things that each of us take. Experiences and all that stuff. But really when you pack it down, it's all tools in your toolbox, right? It's everything that you, that you sit down with at a table and you open up your box and you have all the tools there to go ahead and play and tinker with whatever is on the table. But I think that's a thing of especially when it comes to traditional RPGs, I'm going to say, and this probably will be spicy, is I think we get a little too focused on the toolbox that we bring to the table and not actually what the thing is on the table. Sam: Exactly.Nychelle: And I think that's where we really need to focus is, yes, we have the toolbox. A toolbox will evolve. Sometimes you'll, you'll be like, man, this hammer, I use this hammer every single time. It's been my friend for years. And then you switch over to a screwdriver or something else, like your toolbox will always be there. There's plenty of things to help you better utilize your toolbox. But getting the fiction, getting the narrative, and honestly getting that community together where you're creating something completely new and beautiful and it, it takes a life of its own.That's where it's really at to be quite honest.Sam: Yeah, like I am so excited to receive an ultra power badass like nail gun for Christmas, right? I'm excited to add that to my toolbox, but let's not forget that we're trying to build something.Nychelle: Yeah. Sam: The thing that we're building together is, is the exciting. Nychelle: We're trying to build a birdhouse, you know? Sam: Yeah. Yeah. And I want more birdhouses and fewer hammers. To come back out of the metaphor, I feel like I've had a couple of groups that I've played with for many years, and sometimes in those groups I feel like we've found a really comfortable groove, like a kind of story that we come back to again and again. And I, you know, that groove is a hit. I am happy to keep telling the story of that groove in variation.But I also, I'm excited when someone is able to bring me an idea for a new kind of story that's gonna like knock us onto a new groove to find a new space to play in. And mechanics are not the thing that's going to do that very often unless those mechanics are really in support of the new cool story idea.And the new cool story idea to help knock me and my longtime friends into some new place to help us explore some new story? That's the thing that gets me really going in RPGs right now. Bird houses, not hammers.Nychelle: I, I think it also comes down to being willing to explore new things. Sam: Yeah. Nychelle: it is, having that understanding of my paradigm and my perspective and how I'm viewing this game isn't the only one out there, and I want to see the game from as many different angles as possible. And I think that that is one wonderful thing that can happen is how many different bird houses do you end up seeing? if we're staying with the, with the narrative here of like, how many different bird houses do we end up making? How, how many different bird houses do we end up seeing? And again, I think it goes back to that intention of community is what are you doing with intention?Sam: Yeah.Nychelle: Sorry. I know you guys came here to talk about mechanics and we're talking about philosophy of gameplay.Sam: No, no, no. I, I gave up 40Nychelle: Uh, true. Sam: talking about mechanics. So I, I, I kind of knew what I was gonna get to with this episode topic anyway. No, I think oh, here's, here's the variation on the metaphor I wanted to say. I feel like I've made a lot of different birdhouses and I wanna make some fucking chairs now. Like, like I want, like the thing I want out of the RPG design community at large is for people to bring me some new shit to make other than birdhouses. Yeah, and I also, the other thing I wanna say is it's perfectly fine to just love polishing hammers and to really just be on that side of things and to not give a shit about what you're making. And it's perfectly fine too to just make birdhouses and only birdhouses for the rest of your gaming life. If that's what you're enjoying, like more power to you. But for me personally, the thing that I am excited about is something new. And something new on the fiction side rather than, than the mechanics side.Nychelle: I do think we're getting there in the indie gaming space. I think we're moving away from mechanic speak. It seems to be going in a very certain direction in the last few years, and I, I think we're getting more to the story and the process of building other things besides birdhouse. It's like, how many different things can we build with this? What can we build with this? It's really interesting to see like in like five years down the road, I wouldn't be able to tell you what we would build.Sam: Yeah. Make shit weird and make weird shit as uh, Joe DeSimone says. Nychelle: Oh yes. Sam: Thank you so much for coming on Dice Exploder.Nychelle: Thank you for having me, Sam. I greatly appreciate it. You've been a wonderful host.Sam: Oh, you too.Thanks again so much to Nychelle for being here. Like I mentioned in my intro, I think there's so many threads in this one to follow up on, and I want to underline two things that I really took away from it. first, making content for other people's games is just a joy in and of itself. Just like there's joy in the creating of all new games, there's joy in exploring the crevices of others. And it's often a lot easier to do. So go spelunking into someone else's head and set up camp. Second, game design is community building. The goal of these storytelling games is to sit with your friends and tell a story. And the sitting with your friends part of that is just as much something to prioritize and design for as the story part. Maybe more so. Like, deciding what snacks to buy is game design for your playgroup. Love your friends and the people you play with. And I think that's a lovely note to go out on for season 2 of Dice Exploder. If you want more of what this episode is talking about, I do have a post up on the Dice Exploder blog breaking down a custom Blades playbook that I made for playing a character named John Wick. I think it's pretty fun and gets into a little bit more examples of what we talked about today. You can find Nychelle on Twitter at mistletoe trex, on itch at mistletoe kiss itch. io, or on the Blades in the Dark Discord. As always, you can find me on the socials at sdunnewold, Blue Sky and Itch preferred. And there's a Dice Exploder Discord! Come on by and talk about the show, if you like. Our logo was designed by sporgory, and our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Grey.And thanks to you for listening this season! I'll see you in a few months! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit diceexploder.substack.com

In today's episode of You Can Overcome Anything! Podcast Show, CesarRespino.com brings to you a guest by the name of Jodi Jackson.Jodi is a entertainment hairdresser turned manifestation coach. In her 50's she turned her life around in caring less about what others thought and more about what she wanted.Jodi's message to you is:That you should put your self first rather than last.To Connect with Jodi go to:www.restoreyoucoachingandreiki.com@restoreyou.coachingandreikiHeal.mehttps://heal.me/practitioner/jodi-jackson-manifestation-coach-and-reiki-practitionerTo Connect with CesarRespino go to:

In a world dominated by templates and a constant push for efficiency, Anne and Lau are serving up a fresh perspective on using creativity for business success. In this episode, The Bosses dissect the art of brainstorming, the power of accountability groups, and the role of improvisation in expanding your horizon of creative thinking. Hear about our unique take on how a business coach can help you conceive novel ways to stimulate business growth. Anne and Lau also break down the process of taking a raw idea and creating a tangible vision for it through research and education. 0:00:01 - Intro It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO Boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  0:00:20 - Anne Hey, hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I am here today with the lovely and most talented Law Lapides. Hey everyone, ah, law, it's a wonderful day today. A wonderful day today. It is. Yeah, I am feeling a creative spark in the air Law.  0:00:43 - Lau I felt that too. I wonder if it's change of season or with the new fall rush coming on, I don't know. There's a little mixed with vacation-ish August. We've got that spark going on. I feel it too, Anne.  0:00:56 - Anne And you know what? I just got together. As you know, we just got together with a bunch of creatives and there's nothing to help spur your creativity rather than being with more creatives. Right, I think we should talk about ways to expand your creativity, because expanding your creativity is going to help you in the booth, it's going to help you create your characters, bring something new to the table and just, I think, get a lot of fulfillment and joy out of what you do, as long as you can find the creative angle. And I'll tell you what I get so many people that want to come into the voiceover industry because they say I'm creative and I don't feel like I'm able to express that creativity. And I'm always of the belief that, no matter where you are, you can find your creativity. You just have to sometimes be a little more, maybe, resourceful than at other times, but I always feel as though you can express creativity or expand your creativity by just digging in a little deeper and thinking a little bit outside the box.  0:01:57 - Lau Absolutely. And why do they call us creatives? We're creatives because we create. We love creating. We should be creative at all times, even if we're resting or on vacation. There's all different ways we can be creative, whether you're trying a new food or a new restaurant, or you're going down a new street to look at architecture. How are we expressing our creativity in our worlds that then we take into the booth and in the studio and in the office. That directly informs the kind of business and the kind of process that we create. And you know what's funny? One of my pet peeves was you know, when you get asked on a forum what are your hobbies? What do you like to do? I don't know. I don't know how to answer that. I don't consider myself having hobbies and yet I'm a very creative force and love doing a lot of things. I just never categorize it as a hobby. I always feel like it's integrated with my identity and who I am.  0:02:55 - Anne Yeah, and it's integrated on what you do on a daily basis. And I'll tell you one area where I think that expanding your creativity or knowing how to delve deep into that part of you will help is that I have many students where you know I'm teaching acting for long form narration and a lot of times, long form narration doesn't have an obvious story to it. So I will oftentimes and I know you'll do this as well for your actors You'll tell them to create that scene, and we are constantly needing to create a scene, and I can't tell you the amount of times that I've had students say, well, that doesn't make any sense, I don't, I can't know. And I'll say give me the scene, what are you doing? What's the conversation? And they'll just be like well, this is hard.  Well, your creative brain is a muscle, guys, and so I truly believe that you can exercise that muscle on a day to day basis and you can come up with scenes.  You can come up with things that will allow your voiceovers to be believable and authentic and really relate to your audience that you're talking to. So one of the things that I like to do to delve deep into my creativity is I used to have this little jar where I had all these little creative ideas and it didn't have to be creative ideas for voiceover, although I think I could tailor it to that right and you would pick one idea out of the jar and it'll say create a character that is based on your favorite aunt or uncle and record a five minute monologue. Okay and so right there, it really requires you to delve deep in and focus and focus. I think focus is one of the most important things to really start to dig deep and find where your creativity is and to think about all the possible ways. Law what are some tips you have for delving deep into that creativity?  0:04:43 - Lau Ooh, what a good question. And it's like if we can make it a real thing, a technique, a process, then we could be more mindful, potentially, of doing it every day to help balance our health and our mind and our body and everything. I think that's fantastic. I would give one tip and I would say that mindfulness is something that you have to structure. So I think people think, oh, it's an aesthetic and it's sort of impulse or knee-jerk reaction.  When I think of it, I do it, but really I feel like the strategy and the structure comes, the habit that you do over time and then goes from creative technique into a business strategy. So, even if it's a small thing, like every day, I wake up and I mindfully do a brain dump and I do it on paper, I speak it out loud to empty my brain. To me that's a very creative thing to do, because I could not only feel better and feel more neutralized, but I also may make discoveries about what's in my head that I didn't actually realize was there. It's subconscious stuff that's kind of rolling out and I find that very useful. Especially you and I are idea people. We're like advertising agency people, like we have to come up with ideas just like that, whether it's for a script or a delivery that helps come up with ideas.  0:06:04 - Anne I love that you segwayed so lovely into that, because I was gonna say you have to have an end goal in mind, right? I also used to scrapbook and that was one of my passions. And I say I used to, I feel bad because I really want to scrapbook. Still.  Other things started taking up my time, but it used to be that I would see a picture of a scrapbook page that I thought was gorgeous and it was just a layout and I said, oh, and it was a layout of, let's say, the first date with my husband or the wedding, or it could be my hobby, where I used to ride horses, and so it would be maybe a page or a layout that I saw about that, and it would be a creative spark and that would allow me to go and delve deep into like, okay, let me go find my pictures, let me go write something about that, because in scrapbooking it's very much about journaling and one thing that I love the most about scrapbooking and I know things have gone digital, but I'll tell you what there's nothing like looking at a paper scrapbook and just thumbing through those pages of memories, looking at pictures and reading, and I absolutely it was going to capture those memories and I love just looking back on that. And so I still believe that there's something to the writing it down on a piece of paper and having something tactile that you can touch and feel, and I think the end goal can be something to start with and then kind of work backwards to think about how are you going to reach that end goal? So, perhaps in voiceover, maybe you want to create a new character, right, and your new character would be maybe some like give it a characteristic, right, you want to have that funny, dorky character? Well, okay, work backwards from that, okay. And so who is it in your life that's funny and dorky? What do they say all the time? Write that down. Those could be funny lines that you could then practice and just really shape your character to that. I think that's one good way to do that, and I love your brain dump in the beginning in the early morning, because that's great, just getting all that stuff out and then maybe setting a long-term goal for your creative Like creativity can also be. It doesn't just have to be let me create a character voice.  Creative is let me get better at telling stories. So how am I going to develop my creative style to be able to tell stories better? And I want to be able to tell stories better on, let's say, really dry material. Well, I got lots of that for you because I do tons of long format narration. I can help you with that. Just go find some really dry material out there and let's figure out what's the storyline, figure out how to break it down. And again, I think number one is have that end goal. Number two is educate. Gosh, I'm such an educator, right, I mean I love education. I think along the way, if you can educate yourself. You can certainly Google storytelling, key steps for storytelling, and you can also work with someone as well to help you develop key steps for storytelling. But educating yourself like that, I think there's just nothing that can beat that.  0:08:53 - Lau You know. It's so true. When you get it down on paper, there's something that becomes real about it. To get it out of your head and do, the process of writing it down or typing it out becomes real, and then even speaking it to someone becomes even more real. Before you manifest these ideas as actual events, I'm gonna give a tip too, and I'm gonna call it alchemy.  So I always feel like what we do in our craft and in our art and in our businesses as bosses is create alchemy and meaning taking nothing and creating something out of it. Unlike a magician, which I always think of magic as something where we're making something disappear or removing something or we have an illusion going on. This is a little bit different. I think of this almost more scientifically, like nothing is there and then all of a sudden, something is there and it's very real and you did it and you manifested it so creatively. Do anything you can do where nothing is there and then you create something.  So, for instance, take a blank canvas, create a visual, take clay and then create something out of the clay. Or take a seed and plant it and then there's a flower, so that you can manifest the idea that my ideas may not all come true, they may not all manifest, but because they're there and they're present and I'm allowing them to come out into the world that there is a chance that alchemy can happen from that process. And that's that risk that we talk about, that's that falling off the cliff and saying, oh, sometimes things actually happen and are created out of process. So, creatively speaking, I think that's a tremendous hobby, if you will, to just practice that, practice creating something out of absolutely nothing. And now where?  0:10:40 - Anne do you go for ideas? That's a good question, right, gosh. I just say the internet is at your disposal, right? And also other creatives, right? Other creatives doing brainstorm sessions, you know those accountability groups. I mean I say take five, 10 minutes and talk about, hey, what can we do to expand creatively? And there's lots of things that can help you to expand creatively too. That's within the realm of voiceover. One of the biggest I can think of right now is improv. Right, improv is creative. Take a conversation and go with it and run with it.  0:11:10 - Lau That's the best of Alchemy, actually. Yes.  0:11:12 - Anne Exactly and just create that, but I think also getting together in brainstorming. I do have a business coach that I have had for the past gosh 12 years and I absolutely love my business coach and we brainstorm, we brainstorm. Once a month we have a session where we brainstorm and we say where is it that Anne wants her business to go? But that is a creative brainstorm and what can we do? And I'm constantly evolving. I think we had an episode on either parallel streams of income or what is your plan B, right? You should always have that backup plan. And so what else will you do to grow your business right? And that's a very creative endeavor. And for me, I'm going to tell you that the VO Peeps and the VO Boss podcast the very podcast that you're listening to, bosses was a creative endeavor because one of the things I saw was an end goal of like, oh, a podcast that sounds really cool, I wanna do that.  And then I took that one idea. That was really nothing and I had said, okay, now what do I have to do? What are the steps that I have to take in order to create that right? And the first step was what's the vision for it? What is it that I wanna do, or what is it that I want to conceive and will other people and it doesn't always have to benefit other people, but for me, I wanted it to be a resource. So that was within the realm of my project scoped. Okay, I want this to be an educational resource. Now, how am I gonna get there? Right, what am I gonna do?  Well, first step started brainstorming it with somebody and then educating myself on the process, and I did that a lot. When, as a scrapbooker as well, right, I saw a scrapbook page with paper flowers and I'm like I should be able to make paper flowers, like there are some really beautiful paper flowers out there. Right, there's techniques, there's things that you can do, there's all different patterns and kinds of paper and techniques, and you can crumple the paper first and then you can put layers of that with a different pattern paper. It's amazing, and I think, even if you're doing creative things that don't have to do with voiceover or don't have to do with your business, they will absolutely, number one, bring you joy if creativity is what you are seemingly lacking in your life, but it can also open your mind to doing things to propel yourself forward personally and professionally.  0:13:26 - Lau Ooh, I love that. So you're really looking the fine details, the really small little minutiae in what you're doing, rather than just the big task of it. But look at the little moments that happen, that really are like sliding doors. They really change the trajectory of where your piece or art or business is going to go based on those little tiny details. I think that that is phenomenal. I would even motivate people to be very visceral and very kinesthetic about it every day, meaning don't stay online, go outside, do something outside, like I love to go into a little bookstore and see what's in there that inspires me, that makes me excited or happy, or go get a massage or go to a movie or go I've been bike riding lately and outside Go shop yeah.  I don't know. Do something that's physical and visceral bike riding, walking, whatever you're doing. Go to a restaurant, go to a diner, go sit and have french fries so that you can really observe people, look at human behavior, watch the servers smell the cooking, feel the table, and it sounds insane. But it's like we forget how to do that when we're inside too long and we're locked in too long. And that is my hobby. That is like my hobby.  0:14:45 - Anne I love that. People, people, people. Can I just reiterate people. And again, because Law-U and I just came back from a conference gosh, being around other creative people, just soaking up the energy. Not even you don't even have to be discussing things that are creative, you just have to be around other people that have that creative energy and observe them and see what they're doing and then be inspired by them and be motivated. So be open to that instead of let's say maybe I don't know, being at a conference and being I don't know like sad or feeling bad about yourself or not feeling like you're enough. I went and saw the Barbie movie, that kind of a thing.  I actually always thought that for me, creatively watching wonderful media, great movies, listening to great music was always such a wonderful experience to bring out the creativity in me and to relax me, to get me thinking, to get me outside of myself, because sometimes we're so stuck inside ourselves that we cannot get out of it. And I'm gonna say this for those people who say I am so miserable in my job Okay, I get it. If you're maybe miserable in a situation where maybe you've got people around you, that it can become toxic. You're not happy, you're bored, whatever that is, I think that there's always a way in your mind creatively to get out of it, okay. So here I'm gonna get a little bit philosophical. Maybe I was the youngest child and I had three brothers and one of the things was because obviously I couldn't share a room, right, I was on my own quite a bit and my brothers would do off doing their things, having fun and doing their brother things, and I would very much, a lot of the time, be alone playing by myself. And that play time right, playtime guys, we should have playtime even as adults right, that playtime allowed me to be creative. And of course now I'm thinking of the Barbie, that I would play with my Barbies and I would play with lots of toys. I did all sorts of things with my imagination to create scenes. So it's absolutely in every one of us. I think we just have to revisit and give ourselves some time so that we can have that time for ourselves. And if you're miserable in your job, I think there's always a way to find a part of your job that you can become creative in. I say that I mean I worked gosh, I was in a couple of different industries, right, I was an educator.  I loved being an educator number one because I loved learning. Learning meant that nothing was ever the same and I was able to educate. But also, in that way, I was creative. Right, I was creating classes. If I thought this was a really cool technique, I would create a class and I would teach someone. When I worked in the medical industry, you know, I was an engineer, I was trying to solve problems, and when I worked in technology and networking, I was trying to solve problems that people had, or create something so that people wouldn't experience the problems that I did. I mean, one of the reasons I created the VO Boss Blast was because I didn't have time to do a ton of auditions and I wanted to be able to direct market, and so I said I need something where I can just put my name out there to the people who might be able to hire me. And so I created the Boss Blast for myself initially, and then I said, oh my gosh, wouldn't it be great to be able to share this Boom yes, there you go.  0:18:08 - Lau In essence, you're satisfying your needs as a business owner while satisfying others' needs. Is that not perfect? I think that's a perfect alchemy right there, and a whole bunch of stuff came to my head, like go bowling, play games, collect shells on the beach, like, do stuff, do stuff, do stuff. Not only will you find what feels good and meditative and right for you, but you're really gonna make these discoveries that you can't necessarily make sitting in your room or sitting in your booth. It really is about your environment. How are you reacting to your environment and how are you informed by your environment? I know I love to dance, like I was at this conference with you, annie, and I was up half the night dancing and I couldn't move the next day because you know like my hip and my this.  0:18:57 - Anne I was insane.  0:18:58 - Lau I was a crazy person.  0:18:59 - Anne I saw you and I thought oh my God, look at her go. I loved it. I know People are like do ages dance. It made me so happy, Lau. I meant to tell you that and I was like look at her, go. She's having such a good time, and I think everyone on the dance floor that night right, it was just expressing themselves, having a good time letting go, and, again, that's something that can really help spark your creativity.  0:19:22 - Lau Yes, and there's an honesty about it, there's a purity about it. There isn't a motivation in it that we all have to do this or think this or say this, or there isn't like that we have in business, because ultimately we're trying to please the client and give them what they need. This is really not only for yourself internally, but it is for your community as well, so it satisfies both needs. And sometimes you know who your community is and sometimes it's just the world and you don't know who the community is. And it's important, I think, to relate easily and fluidly with all of that to then bring that realness to the script and bring that familiarity and authenticity to your scripts, because you've had a lot of these sensory experiences, sure you know just for yourself.  0:20:09 - Anne I think a lot of it is the creative in your brain, but it's the creative outlet as well, right, and I say outlet because that means you've got to let it out. Right, it's in your head, it's floating around. You're either gonna let it out by writing it down, by talking to someone about it, by creating something like a piece of music or a beautiful piece of art, and that is the outlet, that is the expression of creativity and that, I think, is the step that's going to come back and really give you that sense of satisfaction, fulfillment, joy, and just make sure that it gets out. I have all sorts of ideas floating around in my head. I love that. I like to think, well, okay, I've got these great ideas, now how am I going to execute that idea? Right, and again, that comes to writing it down, maybe setting a goal, working backwards from that, creating that list of things that you wanna do, talking about it to people, letting yourself go and allow yourself to be free from other garbage that's in and out of your brain. That can be bitterness, tiredness, anger, anything that's not bringing you joy. However, you release that.  Again I go on a bike ride. It's really done wonders for me and I remember it was silly because for many years during the pandemic I did not do that and I just was work, work, work, work, work. And it became stressful. And I remember for 18 years this is my husband and I. I met my husband. He was my spin instructor, so I would go spinning with him three to four times a week and that was after a day's worth of work and it was such a wonderful release for me to get rid of the tension, the stress, the annoyances of the day if I had any and then it allowed to free me up to just feel joy and start to grow and be creative again.  0:21:58 - Lau I love it, and you took the words right out of my mouth I was just about to say. The ultimatum of the day is that if we don't do this for ourselves, we really run the risk that we may have self-destructive or self-sabotage tendencies, as a lot of creatives we kind of have at building.  A lot yes so much the smoke coming out of the ears, the brain that hurts, the part that's pulsating. So being able to not only release that, but give yourself permission that it's really okay to take time for you and your world, and it's going to inspire you and make you healthier. It's really necessary to do otherwise. It can all be internalized and then start working against your process.  0:22:38 - Anne And you mentioned something so important self-sabotage, gosh. That just happens so much to us, doesn't it in this world?  Yes, because I think we're constantly trying to judge ourselves by our perceived success and success is defined in so many different ways and I think that we have to fall down and brush ourselves off and get back up and really consider that a success and not just, oh, I've booked the gig or I got that national spot or whatever that is because that self-sabotage is destructive and we had a whole episode on that but it is so self-destructive. Am I enough? Do I belong in this industry? I felt them all, by the way, at one point or another and I think, as a human being, I think we can all say that we've probably had self-sabotage creep in to our lives at one point or another, and how you get yourself out of that can be a great testament to becoming successful understanding how to release the negative and bring in the positive and bring that creativeness back to you, your product because you are your product right and your performance.  0:23:47 - Lau I love that. This is so inspiring to me. So fuel yourself with feel-good stuff that really invites invigoration and them invigor. And if you really feel that you're being drained by it you're not your best self, it's destroying you then look elsewhere, because you're going to know the difference between something that inspires your work and fuels it and something that drains you and steals your focus. Love it.  0:24:15 - Anne Well, that's another podcast, right? How do we remove ourselves from a situation that is not bringing us joy and is not bringing our ability to create, right? So what a great conversation, law. Thank you so much. I love talking to you, law. My pleasure, I think, between the two of us. Brainstorming, I mean, we do that all the time right? We are helping one another to become more creative, and bosses, you can do that as well. So I want you to now imagine a world full of passionate, empowered, diverse individuals that are giving collectively and intentionally to create the world they want. It's exactly what we've been talking about, and you can find out more at 100voiceswhocareorg. All right, big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can connect and network like bosses and bring that creativity out in all of us. Have a wonderful week, guys, and we'll see you next week. See you then, bye.  0:25:13 - Outro Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Gangusa, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution, with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL yeah.  0:25:46 - Lau Yeah, yeah, you know, okay, just why don't you try something else? No, I don't know, just take a chance, I don't know, surprise me, surprise me.  0:26:02 - Anne Surprise me with something different, and at that point it's always like walk out of the room.  0:26:07 - Lau Okay, I don't walk out of the room.  Transcribed by https://podium.page