The NonProphet Podcast

This podcast originally aired in October 2022 but recent texts with Ian about music and dogs and life reminded me of how good this is and that it merits re-release. Since the original broadcast Ian, who is an underwater cinematographer, has worked on "Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny", "Shogun", "Wednesday" (a Tim Burton offering) and "Last Breath", which premiers in February 2025. Ian and I have spent a good amount of time working on a documentary together and perhaps in the next chapter, the one titled "Whatever Comes Next", we might see if a logical conclusion exists and can push it to the finish line. ___________Ian Seabrook returns to the podcast after a three-year hiatus. Ian is an award winning Underwater Director of Photography in the motion picture and television industry who first appeared on Episode 55. At that time he was in Utah to document the production and release of REFUGE, the first large book produced by NonProphet. This year Ian's return coincided with the printing of POISON so we strong-armed him into making a short film about that.Ian's underwater credits include “Batman v Superman”, “Deadpool 2” and “Jungle Cruise”, five episodes of the TV series, "See", and he was also the second unit cinematographer for Zack Snyder's "Army Of The Dead". More recently his work on "The Rescue" earned several cinematography awards, which we discuss intensively in this current episode.We start this talk with an in-depth review of the underwater shots in "Man of Steel", and simple behind-the-scenes things like how to keep personnel safe in the tank while the SFX crew sets the water on fire. Ian also discusses about the necessity of appropriate clothing, nutrition and fitness for long shooting days in water that is constantly extracting heat from one's body. The conversation shifts towards the current state of filmmaking and how it feels like cinema is a disposable medium these days (very different than in the 70s) and the sheer volume of output is shocking ... quantity vs quality diluted by frequency. We do a drive-by on the unreality of Reality TV and the difference between true documentary film and docu-drama or docu-fiction projects that are "dramatized" to "improve" the story. In an unusual twist, Michael brings up some of the positive aspects of new and social media but don't blink or you'll miss them.In review, Ian's descriptions of shooting underwater sequences for "The Rescue" are riveting, and easily worth the price of a listen.Ian's website:https://www.dorsalfin.net/

Mark sits with Bill McConnell to discuss, well, everything, starting with a quick exchange about the benefits of voluntary discomfort, moving into pre-Clovis arrowheads and onto evolving out of a wrestling mentality with regards to fitness into an appreciation of training for specific goals. In this case, for Bill, fitness supports his journey as a primitive survivalist, a condition that cannot be accurately pursued in a Globo-Gym. And that's the last time we talk about fitness because Bill's knowledge, experience and skills in the context of primitive survival trump just about any other topic we might discuss. By way of an introduction Bill humorously describes his drive to be "more than an Amway salesman for the bow drill." He talks about harvesting a bear with a stone point arrow and a "stick from the woods", homemade bow, homemade shaft, flint-napped arrowhead, and also about blowing 15-20 stalks in order to get close enough—15 yards—to an extremely sensitive antelope to shoot it with a primitive bow. Bill describes his path of experimental archeology (replicating old tools and using them in the real world) where he is in the real world, seeing artifacts and organic material, and being familiar enough with ancient cultures to imagine how the discovered and recovered artifact might have been used as a tool thousands of years ago. This is very different from scientific conclusions reached by researchers who have never been anything other than in 68 degrees and well-fed ...His explanation of building, customizing and using the AtlAtl is remarkable. The difference between foreshaft and main shaft is clear to me as it never was before, and how a hunter can weaponize the tool—the foreshaft—according to the game being hunted, from fish to antelope to elk and larger game, made me understand why humans are still here and many species that primitive humans hunted are not. "This is functioning art, the synthesis of art and science."At 1hr 26min they talked about the VO2 Max of various animals and the primacy of the antelope so after the conversation Mark dug up his old chart:Reinhold Messner (arguably the best high altitude climber ever)   48.8Mark Twight                                    56.6Alex Lowe (much better, faster, stronger climber than Twight)       69Miguel Indurain (five-time TDF winner)                    71Jim Ryun (1 miler world record in 1967)                   81Steve Prefontaine (1 mile in 3:54)                        84.4Bjorn Dahle (Olympic Gold Medals in several XC Ski distances)   93Certain Dogs have VO2 Max of                        90-100FunnyCide and other thoroughbreds are somewhere between    150-200Pronghorn Antelope (the highest ever recorded)            300We eventually land on the discussion of nutritional density and why people eating processed foods to fullness find themselves hungry a couple of hours later as the body inventories its intake and learns that the large meal lacked certain necessary nutrients. It's very different "when I harvest my own meat ... I don't have to eat as much of it because there is more nutrition within that food ..."Finally, it is very important to think about environment and how our presence affects it, "When we leave things for the next generation so that they find it as you did they at least have the ability to make new mistakes or try new things out ... we haven't diminished the resources ... but that's not how we have move through our environment, we have altered it, exploited it, removed some potential for understanding and growth ... and that needs to change."

This is a reboot of Episode 20, recorded in 2018 with my dear friend, Brian Enos. He published a new book on July 17th, 2024 so I figured it would be a nice means of sharing some of the history of the NonProphet podcast (formerly known as The Dissect Podcast) and helping listeners understand why they might very well be interested in the new book titled, "Practical Living". You may learn a bit more about the book by surfing to the Journal section of the NonProphet site. In the first mobile recording of the Dissect podcast, Mark sits down with friend and mentor, Brian Enos, to talk about shooting, Zen, temperament, road tripping, psychedelics and thinking about how to think. Brian is the author of “Practical Shooting — Beyond Fundamentals”. It is considered one of the best books on the subject, and certainly the deepest. During his career, he won multiple Area and National titles and despite this success—or maybe because of it—one day he quit cold turkey, which also comes up during the conversation.

Mark and Carl Kuschke discuss the preparation for an endurance event which was quite outside Carl's normal training focus and activity. He was recruited into a college tennis program but quickly realized going pro wasn't in his future so after graduating he entered the workforce and his training occurred mostly in the gym where he finally put on some muscle because the tennis training volume decreased. We discuss the concept of functional fitness, what functionality means, how to navigate the wilderness of fitness once the university coaching and programming are done, time limitations due to demands of family and work (10 hours per week, max), as well as the utility of online, remote programs. Often, the solution to a sense of stagnation in the gym is to break the routine, to choose an unusual objective and train differently for it. Mark concedes that obstacle course racing may actually be pretty fun, and Carl extolls the reassurance offered by a solid training plan, one that had him well enough prepared to actually enjoy himself on the day of the event. There are some details about the training itself, from VO2 intervals to grip work and the notorious Bulgarian Split Squat Test, and discussion of choosing an appropriate objective according to one's physical history, available time and innate curiosity. This isn't about a high end performance done by a famous athlete, rather it's a conversation that maybe lights the way for anyone to improve their fitness and enjoy the experience.

When I signed a copy of Extreme Alpinism for Pete in 1999 I wrote, "The moment of terror is the beginning of life. Be scared." I signed the book to a reputation—to hearsay—instead of signing it to the actual man. Years later, having become friends, he reminded me of the inscription. The phrase was my response to hearing a story of him bolting routes in Hyalite Canyon, sacrilege to me at the time; reducing risk to pursue purely technical difficulty and permanently altering the resource by chasing that grail. We had a good laugh 25 years after the fact ... we are both still alive to do so. In the moment of our early encounters I couldn't see the similarities between us. I focused on the hot-button issue in my own philosophical pursuits so I missed what could have been an influential and powerful relationship. What I couldn't see then was that Pete strove to connect with nature through adventure, exposing himself to great risk in exchange for the promise of great reward. That individual reward, when communicated and shared, becomes inspiration, becomes progression ... reinforcing the interconnectedness of the community, the climbers seeing and seeking and pushing limits out on the edge.Now that we are on the backside of the arc, the offramp so to speak, and still alive to be wondering, "What now? What next?" we sat down for a conversation. We spoke about the influence of music on climbing as an activity and attitude in that era, when there was a soundtrack to everything. The punk rock cry was "no future" and that might seem claustrophobic or oppressive but our interpretation of it was that, "If I have no future then I am utterly free to act in the present, to do what I want to do right now because I'm going to die anyway." But there was no map, no guideposts; we had to manufacture our own rites of passage into adulthood because the rites that were culturally common before no longer existed. Without a map, with only casual insight from brief exposure to mentors, we followed what we could, imitated what seemed appropriate, and struck out into a wild world where those who tried the hardest seems to live the shortest lives but we went there anyway. And somewhere out there we learned that fear is not a barrier, it's just good information.

Kelly Halpin is an artist, adventurer, and child of nature. Her love of the outdoors and running in the mountains is infectious. She recently sat down with Michael and Trevor Thompson to discuss her ultra exploits at the Running Up For Air event in SLC, UT — in which she won and set the female record. She also discusses her most recent challenge at The Barkley Marathons. She has incredible insight into what endurance can do for you when it is more than pinning a number or collecting FKTs. Her list of accomplishments in endurance sports is only overshadowed by her love of nature and her ability to translate that through her artwork.You can find more about her at www.kellyhalpin.com or her Instagram: @kyehalpin

Mark sits down with Raymond Ansotegui to learn about sheep, cows, Basque culture and bullfighting (and there's not a red cape in sight). We discuss the philosophical side of moving energy and keeping the flow, the somatotypes and psychological make-up required by the job. These are farm boys, ranch kids, good athletes who understand the movement of the animal and also have a particular temperament; maybe not the guy being cheered but the guy being thanked for the protecting the guy being cheered. Raymond's experience as a bullfighter gives him a unique opportunity to dispel misconceptions about rodeo, and bull riding, in particular. There isn't any actual “fighting” in western rodeo bullfighting, rather it is a dance of grit and grace involving extreme focus, humility and respect for the animals and the athletes.Raymond describes some lessons from the arena — commit, slow down, get closer than you want to, and well, "it turns out that those same lessons applied to me helping my father live with Alzheimer's for the seven years before it took him."Later, when we were speaking about storytelling (it's how we met), and he said, "If we can find sameness then we can explore difference because we can always find our way back," which is a beautiful and universal lesson. We also dive into the concept of facilitation and conflict resolution, mediation and collaboration, and eventually the notion of a bullfighter not actually fighting the bull but rather steering and guiding its attention, another concept that has near-universal application. Raymond was born and raised in Livingston, Montana, earned his undergraduate degree from Montana State University where his father was a professor of animal science for thirty years. After attending higher education at Arizona State University (Masters degree in land reclamation, and plant and soil science) and working at the Nevada Test Site, he returned to Montana."We learn to believe in ourselves, commit to our goals and when we get knocked down, to get back up again and again."

Michael and Kegan sit down to talk about physiology and the gulf that language builds between knowing and understanding. They go deep into new thoughts on strength training and how much of what we have done might of worked but is also wrong, “all models are wrong, some are useful.” They bring up relevant topics such as the disconnect between performing exercises versus establishing a training stimulus. They ask questions about the common cultural assumption that “bad” technique causes injury. They meet at an understanding that the body's posture is an early pull to the grave because of how it affects a fundamental process like subconscious breathing can lead to an inability to control your state.

What can I say about Daniel Strauss other than I admire him. And it isn't his accolades and successes in jiujitsu (though there are many) or is it his impressive physical strength, that should be studied. Nor is it his ability to think differently in such a homogenized world. It's because of his curiosity and his zeal for living. He embodies a practice and insight that is rare these days. In October, I flew to Mallorca Spain to participate in a week-long BJJ festival. The level and sheer amount of practitioners and mastery were world-class, and out of them all, Daniel's humble approach to teaching captured my attention and opened up the world of BJJ to what I think it can be. He is a master of his craft and yet, I know he is not done progressing. We covered the roots of grappling, and its function as the foundation for Western Civilization. We went into depth on environments (sites of power), the marketing of BJJ as a “little guy” sport that disconnected it from strength training, and what difficult tasks mean as value. I'm grateful for his time and I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. Books Referenced:How We Move  by Dr. Rob GrayTeaching: A Subversive Activity by Neil PostmanDinosaur Training by Brooks Kubik

Jack is a legend in the climbing world, a man I looked up to when I started climbing and still do today. His obsession with the Alaska Range produced first ascents of the Isis Face on Denali, the Diamond Arête on Mount Hunter, the Viper Ridge on Mount Foraker, and Mount Barille's Cobra Pillar, he made the first ascent of the Elevator Shaft on Mount Johnson, the north face of Thunder Mountain, and several new routes on the Mount Huntington massif. Shifting attention to the Yukon, he made the first ascent of "Arctic Discipline" on the north face of Mount Kennedy with Jack Roberts. He has traveled all over the world to climb, making expeditions to Mount Siguniang (China), Everest, the Biafo Spires, Uzam Braak and the Ogre in Pakistan, as well as the Cordilleras Blanca and Huayhuash in Peru, and finally Kashmir, in India. He received the American Alpine Club's coveted Underhill Award for climbing achievement (1999), the Italian Alpine Club award, “Genziana Giovanne” (1999), and the Sowles Award from the American Alpine Club. "conferred from time to time on mountaineers who have distinguished themselves, with unselfish devotion at personal risk or sacrifice of a major objective, in going to the assistance of fellow climbers imperiled in the mountains," in 2003.We recorded this conversation in October of 2022 but because we had spoken for over three and a half hours I was reluctant to undertake the editing. I started editing just before his 70th birthday but that came and went before I could finish it.The conversation started tentatively as we tried to find the entry point, discussing how and where we met (in 1986), the original carbon-fiber ice tool I'd been given by Grivel the year before that I then gave to Jack, which he returned to me in 2001, and that leads him the story of nearly being killed on the north face of Mount Augusta in 2002. The rescue that ensued is quite incredible—involving the US Air Force operating over the border in Canada—the details of which Jack shares in a very sobering and thoughtful way.Augusta is in the St Elias range, which is twice as large as Switzerland, and the tallest peak, Mount Logan, is the largest massif (described as base circumference) that is above water in the world. On average 110 skiers and climbers visit the area annually (contrasted with 1200 on Denali) and 90% of those attempt Logan, so on any other peak in the range one is quite likely to be alone in one of the vastest wilderness regions on the planet.Further along we discuss the importance of preserving climbing history and the American Alpine Club's work to record interviews and document events with the Legacy Series of short films. This leads to some talk about the resource itself—rock crags and cliffs as well as the higher peaks—and how our use permanently affects not simply the surfaces (heavily polished Italian limestone in Finale Ligura is one example) but also the surrounding environment. When Jack went to Everest in 1983 there had only been four prior American expeditions to that mountain and there were four US teams on Everest that very year, and the mountain had not yet been guided. Contrast that to 2021 when 145 people summited K2 in a single day and there likely had not been more than 100 climbers who had stood on top prior to that day; guiding, fixed ropes and camps, supplemental oxygen, and significant Sherpa support for the clients have all had a dramatic impact on the craft of climbing and upon the mountains themselves.This tangent led us to a distinction between someone who wants to do the climbing and someone who wants to be regarded as a climber, and Jack is most certainly one of the former.The Mount Augusta story.

The idea must be poisoned before the activity itself can become toxic. It is precisely the misunderstanding of what the term "fitness" means that leads many away from the true, original concept and towards the quick fix, the momentary, and ultimately, the detrimental. Michael and Kegan kick off by discussing the common practice of sacrificing health for wealth, and later trying to use the wealth to unfuck what was done to earn it. The youthful notion of invincibility makes all manner of physical damage acceptable if the result is wealth or notoriety but/and "athletic longevity" doesn't make sense to someone who can't yet define actual longevity for themselves. Once physical condition or performance begins to decline (through overuse, injury or simple aging) repeating what was done a decade or more prior can be very seductive but the training that got one to a peak won't reproduce that peak after one is moving down the back-slope of that peak; none of us are 20 years old any more. At some point it is important to know and understand when to quit ... without becoming a quitter.Michael admits, "when I was younger I had to prove I wasn't lazy but as I get older I want to prove I'm not stupid. I know I don't avoid hard things, I've proven it to myself, which means it's time to learn how to take care of myself." He and Kegan observe that childhood/adolescent programming affects behavior decades later, and that maintaining a relationship with physical activity can stall or counter age-related cognitive decline; vigor in the body directly supports vitality in the mind. Understanding the true and real "how" of fitness has become more important in this era where everything has a hack or shortcut, and physical appearance often belies serious, underlying health issues.

Joe Notebaert is originally from Phoenix Arizona, USA. He received his black belt from Cesar Lima and signed by Roger Gracie in 2017 after 9 1/2 years of training at the Roger Gracie Academy in London, UK. Joe is a 2X World Champion winning gold at purple and brown belt in the masters featherweight category in 2013 and 2017. He also won gold in the European Championships in Gi in 2013, and No-GI in 2012 at purple belt featherweight. Michael sat down with Joe during the Mallorca BJJ and Yoga camp in Mallorca, Spain. This event is a passion project that has been in the works since Joe first discovered jiu-jitsu living in London. They talk about the difficulties in making your dreams a reality, especially when this event was threatened in its second year during the pandemic. https://www.mallorcabjj.com/

Kegan and Lucas join Michael to discuss what is wrong with fitness culture and how to think about changing it. This conversation starts on the topic of training consistency and how folks maintain it, which requires them to define consistent training. This quickly presents the conundrum that negative feedback slows or stops consistency, that positive feedback is needed to maintain consistency, and one must train consistently in order to 'cause' positive feedback. And to train consistently one must be semi- or totally-obsessed; to excel requires obsession, you have to be thinking about it when you're not doing it.Training, actual training, starts with a purpose, what are you training for? Why are you doing it? If the Why isn't defined, and precisely, then the work is difficult to sustain ... if you have nothing to progress toward and no way to measure or appreciate it, well, doing it isn't as easy or defensible as might otherwise be true. The guys realize that one's timeline affects point of view but also the effectiveness of the effort. High intensity training leads to a short-term outlook; a 11-minute workout, regardless of how hard it is, does not compel or inspire you to think 72 hours ahead much less ten years ahead. How will what you are doing today influence your physical and psychological condition in ten years? Do you even care? Few actually think ahead, but we all should, because we might actually live that long. And "ahead" changes over time, with understanding. At a younger age, when an entire world was laid out ahead but our appetites were demanding, if acquiring a skill or developing a fitness characteristic took longer than twelve weeks it was too long. Later, with more experience and maturity we recognized it is totally acceptable to sit with the idea that learning to jump might take one year, and that's OK. The real outcomes take time. Sadly, a short frame of reference and quick execution doesn't develop the habits that sustain the condition that was achieved in a short amount of time. To be sure, surface changes, appearance changes may happen quickly but deep, meaningful, lasting change takes time, it takes getting used to ... and living with it. They discuss using competition wisely and wonder if the biggest mistakes made in business are the same ones made in fitness, which could be a launchpad for a marketing gimmick but Michael steers them back to the idea that the intent of a workout prescription affects and changes the execution AND the result of the training session. A laundry list of exercises has no value ... but we can overwrite a lot of wrongness with a proper intention (or thesis). And more important than intent is the story surrounding it, no one remembers or cares about the science of a workout or training style, but they do recall and carry with them the story of it, the narrative built around the session or overall program ... the best storyteller might actually be the best coach or trainer. So while people chase the numbers of a set/rep/duration structure believing these to be the magical keys, others understand, and have proven that if you go long enough or hard enough stuff comes up ... and if you are sensitized and aware, that stuff might cause meaningful change.

Roger Gracie is a 10x IBJJF world champion. More notably, he is widely regarded as the GOAT of competitive jiujitsu in the gi. His dominant style is subtle and simple but the way he has claimed so many victories is based on technical precision and an understanding of the details to a degree that baffles anyone who has pursued the sport. Michael was reintroduced to BJJ by Roger while working on a motion picture in London in the summer of 2016. They met up in Mallorca, Spain for a 5-day BJJ festival where Michael was able to have a conversation with Roger about the bigger picture of a professional jiujitsu athlete's career, and what motivates and fuels a path in combat sport. They discuss what it takes to be a great athlete, the imbalances of sport-specific training, and what it means to add to the legacy of the Gracie name.

Back in 2018 Nate Pack, who at the time was the "Undisputed King of The Airdyne" joined us for a conversation (Ep. 53) and this is the Intro we wrote for that episode:"The guys speak with Nate Pack about capacity and tolerance, about the engine and its gas tank, and get down in the weeds about numbers, which is no surprise as Nate holds a PhD in bio-engineering and is a self-described “smart guy”. He also has a high degree of mastery in extensive effort. During the conversation they divulge the secret workout everyone has been asking for, and the dietary pairings used to amplify its effect. Finally—since this is an exercise and fitness podcast—they analyze the numbers in order to coronate the undisputed king of the Airdyne, and discuss how to plot the linear progression curves of power and time to expose truth."Those numbers, achieved on the AD4 fan bike, which was the standard at the time, are:10 minutes = 412 calories20 minutes = 705 calories30 minutes = 1002 calories60 minutes = 1935 caloriesNate returns to the podcast to discuss the many years of growth and change that has occurred since. We started by discussing how easily we can trick ourselves into believing that more and harder effort can overcome other poor choices, generally those of the dietary kind but when that doesn't work it's time for wholesale change. After having realized that he had gained more weight than he could tolerate or overcome with power, and along the way lost much of his aerobic fitness, Nate made a change. "Sometimes the mirror reflects the image we want to see and not the truth."He started training base (intensity) only for 15-18 hours a week, some on bike but also a lot of walking. He dropped 40 pounds in 15 weeks, 3-4 pounds per week on average, and then consciously slowed it down, taking advantage of the positive feedback but also realizing he needed to turn conscious behavior into a habit, which is more or less automatic. He took another ten pounds off over eight weeks, and slowed the weight loss down even more, while not losing focus. By the time the Logan-to-Jackson (LOTOJA) bike race was held in early-September of 2023 he had lost sixty+ pounds and rebuilt his long endurance and long threshold fitness back.This was the first time on our podcast when the following phrase was spoken, "without going into the biochemistry of PGC-1 Alpha ...", which relates to mitochondrial biogenisis and "promotes the remodeling of muscle tissue to a fiber-type composition that is metabolically more oxidative and less glycolytic in nature, and it participates in the regulation of both carbohydrate and lipid metabolism."It's a fitness podcast and sometimes complex details are discussed so a detailed description of training intensity ensues, referencing mitochondrial biogenesis, work/rest ratios for intervals, effort that produces 2.5 mmol/l lactate but would produce 5 if sustained but it isn't, etc. Yes, down in the weeds a bit but we didn't stay there, shifting instead to the concept of sustainability and the necessity of a big volume of consistency; measuring progress in years, not merely weeks or months. Once the topic of physical training is exhausted we moved on to the psychological, to freeing himself of 'expectations of outcome' while never questioning the expectation of the effort he is willing to make ... and 'will I give all that I am willing to give? Not able but willing ...' What are we willing to give to achieve our objectives, and what do we hold in reserve to apply to other activities or relationships?We hit the offramp with an exchange about learning to be kind to oneself in the midst of the unfairness of the universe, "This is the lesson I was searching for: not more watts but more growth."It's a long and powerful conversation, and sometimes quite in a niche—not every moment will be for every listener—but the high points are universally applicable, and understandable to anyone who is paying attention to the long journey called life we are all taking.

Michael and Kegan sit down with Nate Pack to discuss this year's annual Space Race, which occurs on New Years Eve. Previous editions include a 24-hour Assault Bike challenge in teams of three (580 miles was the final 'winning' score), 12-hour Dante's Triathlon (ski, row, bike 50-40-30-20-10 calories repeated in teams fo 3 or 4 depending on total weight of the team), and a 6-hour 40/400 AMRAP (40 calories plus 400m run) done solo. Continuing to cut total time by 50% would obviously lead to a 3-hour event and no one saw the point in that — the goal must be challenging and difficult enough to cause change or adaptation if that is what one seeks. And the power of having a date or deadline for performance, and people to do it with should not be underestimated.Once the structure of this year's event was determined they delve into the psychological (and physical) limitations of truly hard effort, the challenges of different time domains, and how most people never actually work hard but believe they do. Nate also discusses his impressions of the Capacity manual and the eight-week progression proposed therein ... and how ‘simple' is much harder to abide than we imagine. Within this context they cover the various interval structures and training styles that helped develop them into the athletes they are today.Finally, Michael declares, "You have to rewrite what your brain thinks is hard in order to do something harder ..." and drops the mic. 

Nahko is a singer/songwriter — a musician — who truly journeys between genres and manages to reinvent his style with each successive expression. He sits down with Michael and returning guest, Adam St. Simons in the middle of their North American tour to discuss the creative process, his humble beginnings of farm work, and how great trials are often opportunities to make great music. Nahko can be found here and his tour dates here.

Michael and Kegan discuss the general frustration with people who believe they are training Zone 2 but aren't. Aerobic foundation-building sessions that are programmed by the ignorant perpetuate the lack of results and such failure is masked by cheerleading. They bemoan the “influencer” propagation that simply being on a bike or exercise equipment is Z2, and also clarify that training endurance is not an afterthought or something that you get from by merely redescribing your shitty efforts as something more “official.” They discuss using proper (accurate) language to describe aerobic training sessions in the gym and the expectations associated with it; you're not trying to get it over with you are trying to extend it.The lessons from those who have accomplished much and continue to progress in their endurance usually come to this conclusion: It's not about the time but about what happens within the time, the quality of the work is important (in this case quality is about attention, not speed). If you want to get better then you need to make the time to get better.They conclude by remarking how gym culture is in contradistinction to building endurance (punish vs reward) and how sometimes the benefit from both is simply seeing the contrast in how each develops. 

Michael and Kegan reflect on the origin of the “Fitness is F*cked” theme, confirming that it was, and still is a criticism of an industry, how it has evolved from a position reserved for ranting, and how they can shift it to improve the industry without becoming a shill or charlatan. They also discuss the common practice of gyms adopting new and popular affiliations as opposed to making their own system based on effective practice. It matches the common fitness enthusiast's habit of changing from one form of branded exercise to another as opposed to learning how they respond to different stimuli.

Mark and Michael sit down for a an old school rant that begins with Michael asking the very serious question, "Did government, Illuminati, secret society light up Burning Man with ebola so that they could off all of the people who might be able to make psychedelics legal?"Clearly, this is a very serious conversation, wherein we discuss camping, capitalism, bartering and freedom (as it relates to the presence and function of the tent city that pops up in front of the NonProphet Event Center with some regularity), accepting or abdicating responsibility, and the influence of drugs on self-appreciation and value. Michael describes the remarkable difference between 'associative' vs. disassociative behavior and that perhaps, in order to steer oneself towards better life experiences, towards a 'higher plane' so to speak, one must actively associate with reality instead of evading it, and open oneself to feeling and sensing and being aware, and that may begin with a basic premise of making different decisions regarding the food one consumes. Change on the most fundamental, dare I ay mundane, level can influence an entire cascade of different outcomes.In the moment of fulfillment, after a good and healthy meal that doesn't make you feel like shit, shared with a loved one, people feel satisfied, but society — as it is set up here — can't handle folks who are satisfied because they aren't seeking and they're not consuming and they're not indulging ... they are appreciating where they are, in the moment. That's a good thing for the species but not necessarily for the frenzied socio-economic system we find ourselves within ... because whosoever is satisfied won't fall for the advertising.And then we turned the focus to business and marketing and Michael helped me realize that continual growth of cells in the body is cancer but continual growth in business is expected and if it doesn't happen the business is considered a failure. Or at minimum unsuccessful.So how do businesses keep growing, keep increasing market share and brand awareness? Which leads to us addressing social engineering as a mechanism to turn profit on the back of predictable human behavior ... ugh, the manipulation is at an all time high while the resources, the open-to-buy of the potential customers, is rapidly declining. That said, money changes everything, and those who have it don't have to spend time or energy getting what they believe they want; they can change the outcome without actually changing their behavior. And that is very seductive ... but also a dead end.Finally, when it comes to marketing for NonProphet, we agree that we should be careful about putting the business name and logo on such cheap shit as might quickly end up in a landfill ... is that how we want to be remembered in the present and in the future? Yeah, picking through useless NonProphet tchotchkes at the dump ... that sounds good. So go ahead, acquire stuff, let it weigh you down, because carrying weight is good training, and this podcast is about fitness.

We wanted a way to address shorter topics, and sub=categories dealing with fitness specifically. So welcome into the rotation, The Fitness Is Fucked Podcast by NonProphet. In this first episode Michael and Kegan discuss some of the inherent traps of becoming a strength coach, how we let clients—who do not know—dictate training, especially with strength training, and how it is often a road to nowhere. After rereading some of the original Russian literature on strength and power in light of revising our Strength Manual, Michael noticed how what he saw and read in 2023 seemed drastically different from what he originally he saw and read over 13 years ago. The books do not change (obviously) but we do, and it highlights a very interesting aspect about learning. It is hard to learn when you think you already know what you are looking for.

This was originally recorded in 2019 and appeared as Episode 67, when this was sill The Dissect Podcast. Currently we are deep in print, digital, and construction projects that prevent us recording with the frequency we once insisted upon. However, as we went through the archives we discovered some real gems of conversations that merit revisiting.Hoby Darling made us feel like under-achievers once we learned his background. His law degree is from Northwestern, his graduate degrees in business from UC Berkeley and Columbia, and he worked for Volcom and Nike before becoming CEO of Skullcandy, then executive director of Jaybird/Logitech. He has raced Ironman events, competed in CrossFit, and coached a number of top performing athletes. This impressive resumé pales beside his mission, as a founding member of the Liminal Collective, "to advance the limitless potential of humans, preparing and supporting those who take pioneering steps in extreme, unexplored, and unknown spaces." During the podcast we spoke about the Logitech Cognitive Performer Summit, where in 2019, Mark joined a panel to discuss the influence of the natural environment on creative output. The initial impetus of that first summit came from asking, "What does the science of performance look like? And how do you fill a room with people who think alternatively about these theories to discuss and advance ideas derived from but not yet proven by science?" Many scientific positions are old; the experiments were done years ago, and it takes time to peer-review, publish, and then apply the conclusions in the real world to demonstrate actual utility. Besides, "the science" often shuts down (public or common) inquiry by declaring definitive conclusions … which places a box around an idea thus defines the boundaries of future exploration. Traditionally, when it comes to scientific or casual inquiry, attention has focused on physical performance (in sport) because it is visible, but at the highest levels the bodies and capabilities are similar so why are some athletes or performers great? This drives some to examine the influence of cognitive ability on physical performance and oddly enough, as test and analytical capabilities have improved, we've seen that the top performers in E-Sports are making the fastest decisions on the planet under highest cognitive load. This psychological performance used to be invisible — it's only in the last years that we could begin to observe it, and analyze it. If we agree that, "desire is the highest octane fuel that there is," the next question must be, "How do we quantify or measure or reproduce the desire that affects high performance in any arena?"This path of inquiry requires new eyes, new ideas, a conceptual openness disassociated from from the steps and positions previously taken or used. Michael and Hoby used a simple analogy in the conversation regarding the shift away from plastic bottles to contain and transport water towards aluminum cans, which are far more reusable and recyclable ... that's all well and good but also self-limiting. What's the moonshot here? Instead of going from 1 to 1.1 we should be going from the plastic bottle to not needing a container or vessel at all … let's return to 0 and discover a new and different solution. We must be more creative when seeking modern solutions to age-old understanding and the problems those conclusions caused; when you no longer have a hammer you must find a different way to drive the nail … or … you have to become the nail. Our physical experiences have led us to examine the influence of psychological ‘fitness' on performance, learning, and exploration but it's clear that understanding the utility of fitness in the context of such inquiry is lacking. We use the process of developing fitness to teach people how to change behavior … if they learn to control a single aspect of their condition it opens them to the idea that there are other parts of life and behavior one might consciously influence or change. "I don't know how to be the person that I want to be so I sought a guide … I looked for a situation within which there was no judgement about my current condition yet much opportunity to change that condition existed.”Deeper into the conversation we addressed how poorly we as human beings are able to select the right person for a particular task or position; when it comes to choosing quarterbacks, CEOs at start-ups, or the right individual to augment an existing team, "you're better off flipping a coin." Concepts like emotional self-regulation, compassion for others, self-efficacy, the willingness and desire to be curious, resilience and grit do not present during interviews or result from psychometric test … so how do we make better selections? If we can eventually understand that then the outcomes will be more predictable, and better for our species as well as the spinning orb we inhabit. Dig in, this is a good one. https://www.liminalcollective.co/who-we-are

George Briones is a former Recon Marine (2007-2011) and Recon Instructor. He worked as the Director of Training and Programming at SOFLETE for eight years, holds a BASc in Sport Psychology and is currently studying to earn a MA in English language and literature. He coaches and educates a variety of athletes across a wide range of disciplines, from traditional strength and conditioning, and Olympic lifting to ultra endurance, combat sports, and preparation for military operational readiness, special selection and tactical competitions. He lived in Salt Lake City for several years during which time he trained and coached at NonProphet and became a dear, and trusted friend. George joined us for the Endurance is Love podcast, episode 175, which we recorded in March 2020 but didn't post until August 2021 and he was present for the late-May 2020 protests (mostly peaceful) that happened in SLC coincident with a NonProphet Symposium.Life has taken him to SoCal where he is the owner/operator of GB3 Athletics. George sat down with Michael to discuss the state of the "fitness industry", which of course, kicks the conversation off with a good critique ... or rant.They start by discussing the tendency for top level competitors — in this case BJJ but it applies to all sport — to focus solely on the competitive apex while letting the foundation slide, which leads to the concept of injury rehab as a powerful training factor, not only for peak performance but more importantly, longevity.George talks briefly about a 2010 deployment to Afghanistan, the difference between rules and principles, on-demand, on-the-ground adaptability and flexibility, and how sometimes, the solution to a perceived fitness problem is not gaining more strength but actually reducing the force or load being applied to the organism. The idea that (lack of) mobility is the limitation applies not only to soldiers moving across terrain but also in individual physical expression of strength or other fitness characteristics.It's a wonderful conversation wherein George presents his approach to training world champion level BJJ players, ultra-endurance athletes, and the seriously important concept of play in training because, if you're not having fun, you will compromise both intensity and volume and that could be the difference between a successful outcome or not.https://www.gb3athletics.com/https://www.youtube.com/@gb3athletics/videos

We first released this podcast in September 2019. I've been thinking about reposting it since we ran into West and Kami Taylor at the Tactical Games in St. George where Erin and Cinnamon and Michael were competing. West was far more fit in March 2022 than when we first met, happier, vibrant, and spoke excitedly about his obsession with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the nagging injuries that always come up when practicing hard. It was wonderful to see them and to be reminded of how they climbed up from bankruptcy, discovered an entirely new way of life, with very different values from those they had lived by or chased before market circumstances took away all of the material things they believed were the key to being happy. As dire as this loss sounds, as awful as it is to imagine starting life over at the age of 40, it's exactly what West and Kami did, and their story is an inspiration, incredibly motivating, and a valuable reminder that it is never, under any circumstances, over, until you choose to quit. If nothing else, hearing West's descriptions of installing early dial-up internet connections — where the quantity of phone lines limited simultaneous use to 96 people — is a fine example of how much has changed since the early-2000s, and how we take gigabyte level up and download speeds for granted. These days (as was the case in 2019) West and Kami train wild horses, having spent the last 13 years dedicated to the human-horse relationship and science-based horsemanship. In 2019 they took a few of the NonProphet crew out on an overnight, backcountry horse experience after which we invited them to drive up to record a conversation. They joined Mark, Michael, and Josh Tyler in the NonProphet podcast studio (known as the Dissect podcast studio back then) to talk about what it means to be wild but teachable, to start all over, and to thrive. His motto is, "Slow down faster to get done sooner," and I think we could use a heavy dose of that lesson when the world is racing all around us. https://wildwesttaylor.com

On April 26th, 2023 Blair and Mark sat down to discuss their recent visit to Alaska, the mountains there, their influence, and events and adventures tied to, inspired and caused by them. They discuss grave loss, life after it, the love that may arrive in its wake, and the rescues undertaken to prevent such loss. Blair shares her first night on a glacier and much to her chagrin, missing the Northern Lights (again).

Sam and I first visited on the podcast back in 2020, episode 134. We tried hard to find the truths we knew were present but couldn't quite get there. We didn't know each other well enough and they were turbulent times when we all felt some heavy emotional and cultural and moral stimulus but couldn't yet make sense of it. During the intervening years we both settled down a bit, or at least discovered ways to manage the stimulus without being overwhelmed into inaction (or too hasty action) by it. I believe we see and understand each other better now.On this occasion, Sam joined me the night before he drove away from Salt Lake City, towing a trailer towards his new home in Kentucky. It was worth making the drive down from Montana to see and speak with him one last time before the frequency of such conversations will drop as the geographic distance between us increases.Thematically, our conversation seemed to follow the arc of a young man into adulthood, passing through a long period of "angsty ambition" and "never enoughness", and how that hungry, thirsty, teeth-gnashing ambition, where commerce influenced behavior, and the need for superlative success was high delivered very little enjoyment. That said as the apogee of trying so hard has passed one may settle into a zone where success may be experienced without superlatives or broadcast, and one may express and experience mastery of skills and self apart from any audience or observation.We close out our visit talking about shooting; the relationship between it and climbing, the possible life or death moments in any movement or manipulation, the risk calculus, and the appreciation for, and of life itself that arrives when we understand that actions have actual consequences. Both activities may be tools for contemplation, lenses that focus appreciation for life and living it.

Trevor Thompson joins Michael and Mark to discuss the extraordinary snow year in the west and the wild — once in a decade — skiing objectives that such a winter make possible. Specifically, the huge accumulation of snow made it possible to ski from the top of Mount Whitney (14,505'), which is the highest peak in the Lower 48, to the road, something like 8000 feet of elevation loss. That's a big ski run, preceded by a big climb. Midway into that we disappeared down a rabbit hole to discuss electric vehicles, and older cars or trucks one can maintain on his or her own instead of being hobbled entirely should anything go wrong with the electronics or computers in the most modern vehicles.Trevor nicely bridges from the concept of those who can't or won't learn what's necessary to maintain or diagnose or repair a vehicle to the topic of being hand-held through life, spoon-fed perhaps, where risk is interpreted or mitigated by an expert, where requisite knowledge and/or self-knowledge is rendered irrelevant and people are granted access to higher order experiences despite being unprepared or unable on their own.Success breeds ambition, and technological development, which has allowed some to shortcut education and experience, has opened up adventure possibilities for those who do have the requisite experience and ambition. So the question at some point must be, "What's next?" Well, some things are doable because they're doable, not because they're fun.Later Trevor and Mark talk about the "nerfing" of the mountain environment and its natural challenges, and the strange understanding that, "If I, a relatively inexperienced climber, is here, and can be here, then it must necessarily be safe ... ish." Transformative experience can only exist hand-in-hand with honest assessment and communication about that experience. Embellishment denies the experiencer access to the lessons that may have been available from that experience, that adventure.Jump in, the snow skis just fine.

Disorder, Pathology, and Anger as Self-Love with Anastasia SharpAnastasia Sharp is a practicing therapist in psychotherapy with an extensive background treating substance abuse, trauma, and anxiety through the use of EMDR, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Ketamine and a host of other modalities. She sits down with Burkey and Michael to talk about her practice, what interested her in disordered mental pathology and how “therapy” can mean an almost infinite spectrum of helping you to better “human.”

Kegan Dillon used to work closely with us and has been on many, many episodes of the podcast. For the past couple of years he has been seeking and growing in a different zip code but occasionally visits to see what we are doing and to share what he has learned out there, on walkabout. He sat down with Michael in April to talk about the state of the fitness industry, learning from the students you are teaching, the concept of authority gained by accreditation rather than — and not reinforced by — actual experience and practical application, and marketing, the goddamned albatross of marketing. The bad version of it is manipulation. The good version is holding up a flashy thing to grab attention and then transmitting good, useful information, and that's a tough balance to achieve. If we defined it in a way we could live with it would be simple, simply, "sharing with the world what it is that you do ..." But marketing isn't truth and sometimes the marketed get caught in lies or omissions their business can't withstand. "Can you imagine how awesome our world world be if politicians were held to the same standard (re: lying) as the Liver King?" Yeah, that would be a fine world to live in but too few will confront a truth that might expose their own dishonesty and lack of integrity.Deeper in the conversation Kegan and Michael discuss the importance of fitness as we age, 80s and 90s sort of age, and how one must have something to look forward to, something to work towards. If you can find no reason to stay fit or recover lost fitness it's difficult to motivate yourself to do anything but be sedentary. Will can carry you beyond yourself, but when Will goes, the physical world slides away with it. How do you keep going when you no longer want to? And it's not a question of endurance in sport, this is about life, about career, about work and making that work mean something or help change something ... without meaning there is no reason to keep breathing.Finally, the conversation turns to concepts of trust, and freedom, and always keeping a "Fuck You" in your back pocket. Because if you are willing to walk away then you are free to do anything.

Luke Nelson is an endurance athlete, father, husband, P.A., ski patroller, and forever seeking deep and powerful experience. Blair and Mark spoke with him the day after the 2023 Grandeur Peak edition of Running Up For Air (RUFA). The conversation started on the topic of changing immediate athletic goals on the fly according to how you feel — and being OK with it rather than being bound to an expectation or particular outcome. He shared some stories of his stint with the U.S. National Ski Mountaineering team, racing in two World Cups in Europe, and a 71 mile-per-hour descent to qualify ... "I have to straight-line this mogul field and I'll either blow up and can say I tried, or I'll make it and be going to Europe". Commenting on the numerous ultras he has run, Luke speaks beautifully of all of the people who helped him do the hardest things, and that, "those people make running not solitary ..." Blair describes them as, "the physical people I get to be with in the mountains as well as those who are no longer here physically, but I still get to share those experiences with ... it's really powerful ..." and both share stories of being visited by ravens in the mountains; protectors, prophets, messengers, intermediaries between the spirit and material worlds who, when seen, may make one wonder "who that was". We speak about endurance efforts as spiritual practice, Luke's journey at Hard Rock and the growth that occurred during the almost-decade of trying to get in via the lottery and finally being accepted on his 10th try ... which would have been far different otherwise. "I was so grateful for the experience that there was never a moment during the day when I considered stopping or even wanting to stop." Ever searching, one of Luke's goals for the year involves a return to rock climbing, which he hasn't done since falling almost two decades ago, an accident that fractured his skull and put him in the ICU for a few weeks. We discuss the emotional journey and recovery needed to confront the fear that has solidified during the years away from that activity. We close the conversation on the topic of sponsorship and Low/No Impact outdoor events, the varying degrees of environmentalism that derive from the culture of particular sports, sorting trash from recyclables, washing dishes during the events to reduce garbage, and always trying to reduce our impact on the natural resource that provides us so much opportunity. 

When we first spoke with Matthew Weatherly-White on the podcast in 2018 (Episode 14), we discussed recovery, athletic longevity, endurance, desiccants, exercising for an audience, intelligent self-awareness, transubstantiation, personal reinvention, the evolution of capitalism, impact investing, the discipline to do less than you think you have to, and tried to apply behavioral economics to fitness. It was an incredible conversation. Five years later, much has changed in the world and for us as individuals. We started this conversation with the topic of SVB, banking in general, and how Matthew's company handled the 2008 crash, including the idea that safety nets encourage risky behavior. We diverted towards famous podcasters, the rarity of independent thought — which can either marginalize or work in one's favor, digital interface with a virtual mob, the benefits of negative experience, and briefly spoke about the U.S.' war on drugs, money flow, arms sales, and how cartels sometimes step in to provide community services where the government doesn't. Somehow this led us to explore Adam Smith and his "moral framework" of capitalism, which most people ignored in favor of ever more reductionist positions that produced a form of capitalism he actually did not advocate. This splendid conversation closed out on the topics of publishing, and an almost euphoric description of surfing, courage, and making it into the local line-up. It is indeed, a conversation about the richness of life.

Michael starts the conversation by declaring that social media is a record of, "all of the stuff you don't normally do." Neither Blair, Erin or Mark could disagree so we moved on to the topic of expertise, addressing differences between that derived from actual experience rather than from a credentialing body or process and the value of each, as well as how expert conclusions are often shaped by funding (we see you, Nutrition). If science results from consensus, i.e. from a number of people testing different hypotheses and settling on a conclusion, does this mean that the consensus is always right, or true, or useful? Big jumps in understanding often result from individuals not doing the same as had been done before, not following the consensus. So maybe we should all speak up when folks tell us to keep our in-expertise to ourselves.

Logan and Jariko are veterans, BRCC frontmen, and present-day explorers. They were part of team that set a record for 7 parachute jumps on 7 continents in less than 7 days. In this episode, we discuss fear, risk, and continually pushing the boundary of the unknown in order to have — and then share — new experiences.

Maury Irvine was born in San Francisco in 1924. He was deeply moved by the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor and immediately attempted to enlist in the Navy but due to a birth defect in one eye he was turned away. Maury was determined so went back 27 times, hoping to catch a recruiter who would let him pass, but didn't. He was eventually hired by TWA Airlines, who had lowered the eyesight requirement because of the war, but after realizing he would be desk-bound there he joined the Merchant Marines. Maury became a decoder during WWII, working closely with the ship's captain and traveling the world. His fascination with travel, science and culture took him all over the world, at one point he visited 33 countries in seven years. He holds a PhD in physics, taught at Lehigh University and worked for Bell Labs during the development of the transistor computer, among other projects. After retiring Maury volunteered at The Museum of the Rockies, where Jack Horner was the Head of Paleontology. The pair hit it off and eventually traveled to five different continents together digging for dinosaur bones. Maury volunteered at the Museum for almost 30 years and donated over 10,000 hours of service. He has lived a remarkable and inspiring life, and Blair and I are fortunate to have spoken with him for this podcast. For further insight check out Blair's essay about her dear friend on the NonProphet website.

Mark and Blair sit down to talk with mountain athlete, Justine Hewitt. Blair and Justine met in the valley of the Grand Canyon a few years ago when both were running the Rim 2 Rim 2 Rim for fun and decided to finish their route together. Justine is accomplishing big feats in her local Utah mountains and beyond while remaining under-the-radar (for now). They discuss Justine's 2022 win at RUFA (Running Up for Air), where she completed 11 laps on Grandeur Peak for a total of 63.8 miles and 35,618 feet of vertical gain in 24 hours. It's easy to understand Justine's nickname ‘The Queen of Vert' from her single day efforts and her 500,000 vertical foot goal for 2022 (which she reached in early November). They also discuss her first 100-mile effort, The Millwood 100, a backyard vert fest that criss-crosses the Wasatch, created by local athlete Jared Campbell. Justine set the Women's Fastest Known Time and was one of 22 total to ever complete the route at the time. While the numbers are impressive and indicative of Justine's strength, grit, and determination, it is her gratitude for being in the mountains and her enthusiasm to encourage others that shines more brightly than any trophy or accolade. She trains quietly every single day and approaches each chance to be in the mountains with humbleness and appreciation. She is grateful to be out there and her excitement and gratitude — her spirit — reverberates along all the trails she runs and through all the people she runs with.

Phil returns for an attempt at a “more clear transmission.” In the last episode Phil felt like he was off, and true to his incorporation of HD he wanted to get the environment to be a better fit so that he could speak more clearly on a topic he knows at a very deep level. I think if you listen to both you can hear a difference. Chalk it up to “living your design",” or just a feature of getting more comfortable, either way, this episode explores HD from a different angle (even though we cover similar topics).HD is a ridiculous premise. It has unbelievable origins, but at its core, Phil tries to establish that it is a practical system, based on very physical phenomena. And the benefits you can get from understanding it has nothing to do with “belief” or “faith.” In fact, it has to do trial and error, experimenting, and remaining curious about our intrinsic and unique experience as humans.

For the last few years, Erin and Michael have been entertaining the idea that there is a known, predictable pattern to how each human is deeply individual but operates within a given nature. This is known as Human Design. It is a quirky, surreal experiment of sorts, easily dismissible as woo, and yet, somehow, highly effective. Phil Redd was responsible for exposing them to the concept 3 years ago and has continued to teach them the intricacies of this vastly complex system with a skill and expertise that is rarely found in a world that latches on to high ideals and mysticism with little to no backing. It is admittedly hard to swallow, but it is more logical than it first appears, and Phil is as good of a guide as they come. In this episode, Phil explains some of the pieces that make Human Design a unique lens through which to look at the world and yourself through. He goes into the history of its founder Ra Uru Hu, and the unbelievable mystical experience that has become a worldwide phenomenon. This is Part One of an unexpected two-part series. Phil recorded this first episode and realized that the circumstances of it didn't match up to how he best transmits detailed information, so we recorded another with a few adjustments that will be released next week.

Mark sits down with Blair Speed to discuss the concepts of effort, process, competition and achievement in the context of climbing and trail running among other activities. They examine Blair's running and racing (and professional work) season, and talk about preparing for and executing two back-to-back 50km trail races. They conclude that one universal concept still holds true: pay attention, be self-aware, control what you CAN control in order to spare the horsepower needed to address what you cannot control when it truly matters. 

Michael, Erin, and Blair talk with “Cinnamon” about their experience at The Tactical Games back in March of 2022. They cover topics like women in tactical sports, using magical rocks for fitness gains, the fitness industry as a honey pot for identity, and micro-dosing corndogs.

Jesse is an actor, seeker, and thinker. He has a long list of professional credits, but what is more impressive is his desire to constantly reinvent himself. In this episode, he sits down with Erin and Michael to talk about his upbringing in a small Wyoming town, the long difficult road to breaking into the industry, and his approach to his profession that keeps him learning and exploring.

Michael and Elodie discuss the topic of coaching and whether to keep doing it or not. Between them they have decades of experience training and leading and guiding others but recently, their level of job satisfaction has been put to the test by clients who go through the motions and nod along to the thesis but are unable to grow and change. Eventually, "there is no amount of money that can make dissatisfaction OK ..." And so the questions become, "Why don't people emphasize self-knowledge to a meaningful extent? and How can we change this?" So I suppose we are right back where we started.

Climbing, Sailing, and Entropy Connor McCrillis made his first ice axe during his freshman year of high school. We begin this conversation on the topic of DIY by talking about homemade boats (originally a blend of wood and fiberglass), and his first ice axes (laminating wood and carbon fiber, and stainless steel for the head) then we take a deep dive into sailing, hydrodynamics, racing boats, and DIY boat building, and coaching juniors to race sail boats. Deeper in, we reach the main point of the discussion, which is climbing, specifically ice climbing, and the set of carbon-fiber ice tools that Connor handmade for Mark. We talk around the concept of soloing, risk, and risk applied "socially" in the gym where there is little so it must be manufactured in order to enforce presence of mind. Social risk can feel just as scary or dangerous (and therefore motivating) as physical risk. Connor neatly ties the intensity and precision required by soloing back to the proper execution of a jibe on a hydrofoil sailboat without settling the hull onto the water surface. The body awareness required to execute these maneuvers on the water are not dissimilar to the awareness needed to move over steep rock and ice, or to move purposefully and with elegance in the gym. "Where I live is in the middle of nowhere which means it's in the middle of everywhere."

During the 48-minute introduction to a discussion of the Capacity manual Michael and Burkey discuss fact checking, managing intent, contractual relationships, accurate communication (that sometimes requires punctuation), the differences between text and speech and the utility of each, and the peril of literal responses to emotional beings. Eventually they address the Capacity manual and how to communicate our position on the topic ... how difficult it is to correct existing problems without creating new ones, and how writing to a reader is very different from speaking to a listener with whom you have just shared an experience. It became clear that being able to do something doesn't imply understanding Why you can do something — and the why is important if one wishes to develop the characteristic. The gym can be a perfect atmosphere for discovering Self and ability honestly, it is a place where we may apply philosophy, and give it consequences, a place where you may become (and observe) your true self through effort. This manual is the result of thousands of workouts, and at least as many questions. 

Adam is an Event Director, Tour Producer, and Artist Manager in the live music industry. He sat down with Michael to discuss the different aspects of music, the industry, and the general population's relationship to entertainment. They cover ground on music as therapy, the troubles of industrialized psychedelic medicine, and inherent problems associated with commodifying art.

Christian Craighead was born in northeast England and joined the military at 16, eventually passing selection for the SAS where he served with distinction and made numerous operational deployments. In 2019 his actions — taken alone — during the Al Shabaab terrorist attack at the Dusit2 Hotel in Nairobi, which undoubtedly saved numerous lives, earned him the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross. We don't talk about that on this podcast — it's not our place — but we dive into some equally engaging topics.

We recorded this podcast with Adam Giles in early-2019 and after listening again recently we decided to rerelease it. Some may have missed it then, when the podcast had a different name, but we also made an interesting prediction or perhaps more accurately, extrapolation, that has bearing on some events in the 2020-2021 time frame. Adam's description of working at Nokia, and helping to launch the 6680 with a 2mp camera, is a trip back in time, to an era when some engineers were convinced that touchscreens would never be a thing ... wow.After leaving an established career in Tech to apprentice in a gym, Adam eventually began coaching. He went from partying hard to smashing himself in the gym, and was enamored enough with the process to change his life, to begin training others, and maybe even help them to change theirs. But following a relatively short term devoted to the fitness space he burned out and returned to the field of technology marketing so of course we spoke about the difficulty of monetizing what we love, and how that affects the quality and duration of our love of the activity. We also discussed the relationship between technology and health, recognizing the need to teach younger people how to use it, how it should be used, and how our relationship with handheld tech is changing human physiology, from posture to the trend towards being more sedentary. Michael posited that most poor health choices have compounding interest. If you think the cost is high now it's because you do not recognize the "eventual" cost, which will be really high ... quite forward thinking if we look at the co-morbidities affecting the impact of the recent virus. On top of the drift towards more sedentary existence the social and media and commercial influence on the concept of fitness and health has created bad incentives that often steer people away from the real benefits of movement and dietary awareness. The outcomes being "sold" deal with how one looks on the beach, gaining attention and improved social status, but we believe the point of improving fitness is to have access to more and (more) diverse experiences. If we want to change then accurate and rational "wanting" matters, and a proper guide is necessary to see-desire-work-achieve. To affect meaningful personal change we need guidance that goes beyond the physical and coaches (different from trainers) are not only exercise physiologists but exercise psychologists. Working on the invisible muscle of the mind is not a sexy reward so it's a tough sell.Fitness practice can help you "look better", of course, but it will also help you to know yourself better and once you can do that you may eventually be able to accept who you truly are more often. And that will change your whole life. 

Becky Switzer approaches life with an openness, acceptance, and celebration of life-long learning. She is an educator and athlete who invests deeply in her community and people. She spent her younger — "soccer is life" — years playing goalkeeper and earned her way to a college scholarship at that position. These days she is recognized as one of the top climbers in her home state of Montana. During this conversation we speak about expectations, responsibility, sport performance, gender differences therein and the social demands that derive from the commodification of passion. The subtitle of this conversation could easily be, "The Antithesis of Acquisition". Becky is an inspiration whose strength, curiosity, hard work, and commitment to walk step-by-step along her own journey naturally moves others to greater effort, thus experience.

Ben Staley returns to the podcast for the first time in a while. Last time we saw Ben was in Death Valley February 2021, the time before that was pre-COVID, also in Death Valley, November 2019. We have all grown and changed since then. Michael and Mark chat with Ben about religion, and what a cool guy Jesus was, or maybe was, and conclude that if you just act like him you would be a pretty good person. Late we discuss "the art of making art", training one's creative muscle and habits, and how — when you are a creative person — every single one of your friends appears to be more productive and motivates you to work harder. We speak about POISON, the binding of which Ben attended made a short video. It was wonderful to fellowship with Ben for a few days; he is incredibly inspiring and we might work harder when motivated by his example.Links mentioned in this episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BupZyoDNntc@staleyhttps://www.nonprophet.media/shop/p/poison-sermons-on-sufferinghttps://www.benstaley.com/starboundStarbound on Vimeo:https://vimeo.com/285356395

In this episode, Michael, Erin, and Blair discuss fad diets. Blair shares her extreme introduction to the importance of a sans-gluten practice, and what it's like to grow up in Florida on Hamburger Helper. After introducing The Buttery Bros to the practice of eating raw organ meat, Erin thought it would be productive to discuss the details about a small but growing community of food snobs that have taken an extreme position in only consuming raw meat and raw foods. Based on a centuries-old argument between Germ theory and Terrain Theory, the gang does their best to explain the details, the upsides, and the downsides of this diet.

Pat Callis is an icon of climbing history in North America. His first ascents and early attempts span the distance from Southern California to northern-Alberta, Canada. While this conversation may not seem relevant to the topic of fitness, I believe it is because endurance is fitness and Pat is still climbing (and well) at 84 years of age. Our discussion will, I hope, become an important moment in the oral history of climbing. We discuss the first ascents of the Great White Throne in Zion, the Lost Arrow Direct, the north face of Mount Robson and early attempts on the Emperor Face, and the development of ice in Hyalite Canyon, among other events that have influenced climbing, especially in Montana and Wyoming. When discussing the Great White Throne (climbed with Fred Beckey and Galen Rowell) I wondered aloud if that was the same face climbed in 1978 by George Willig in front of the Wide World of Sports cameras. That was actually Angel's Landing, which Willig climbed with Steve Matous, whereas I recalled him being alone. Mike Hoover ran the camera for that and the riggers were a Who's Who of the best rock climbers of the time. Later I mentioned the "Retro" ascent of the north face of the Eiger using original gear, and again, my memory was inaccurate regarding Stephan Siegrest wishing to use a modern kernmantle rope. From the photos here https://stephan-siegrist.com/adventures/eiger-retro#gallery, it appears they did use old, laid rope, like Goldline (or similar).For a unique perspective on climbing and Pat and the impact he has had on individuals around him check out Blair's essay in the Journal on the NonProphet website. This conversation lasts 3hrs 45min. We could have broken it into two posts but that simply isn't our style — full send, wherever you are.