Open Threads

What a fascinating episode with Daniel Vassallo, creator of smallbets.com.  From leaving Amazon to become self-employed, to experimenting and iterating on business models, software, books, courses, and finally his flagship community, Small Bets.

Had a fascinating conversation today with Joel Hooks who runs egghead.io and badass.dev.  We talked about about the evolving landscape of online education in the developer space.Recorded on September 5th, 2024.

Chris Oliver, the creator behind GoRails, Jumpstart, HatchBox and his new product, SellRepo, joins me to talk bootstrapping his Ruby on Rails training business and related tools with only a team of 3!  A great wide-ranging conversation.Recorded on September 4th, 2024Note:  Sorry!  My short intro audio is left speaker only... But that's fixed after the first minute!

I caught up with Josh Pigford today, founder of Maybe, ToolStash, and many other projects.  We covered a lot of ground across many of his different projects, but spent the bulk of this chat geeking out about programmatic SEO.  The strategy, the technical approach, and exactly what (and how) he built some of his AI-generated content marketing strategies for his projects.We recorded this interview on August 6th, 2024.Brian's update was recorded on August 6th, 2024. Brian's Product ConsultingI offer 2 flavors of product design & development consulting with SaaS companies:OneMonth.app -- I build your MVP SaaS product in one month!TailorMadeUI.com — I give your SaaS product's UI and UX an upgrade with tailor-made design components, all front-end coded (with TailwindCSS) and ready to plug into your codebase.Brian's Private PodcastSubscribe here (for free) to join my private podcast and community, called What's Next?  It's available on my podcast network platform, Ripple.fm.  Open Threads Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Mike McAllister is a designer of brands, websites, products, and WordPress goodness... Here in part 2 of our conversation, we dive into Mike's current work on OllieWP, a new product that brings great design to the WordPress ecosystem.We also talked about the balance of working on products with taking on selective design consulting partnerships with clients.This conversation was recorded on March 6th, 2024Brian's update was recorded on May 6th, 2024. Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies to provide UI, UX and custom-built pages and components to give your SaaS a modern user experience.Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Mike McAllister has an incredible track record as a designer of brands, websites, products, and WordPress goodness... In part 1, we talked about Mike's experience building a successful WordPress products business that was acquired by WPEngine, and what he learned from the transition between indie product founder to acquihired in a large organization.In part 2, we'll dive into Mike's current work on OllieWP, a new product for designing in blocks in WordPress.This conversation was recorded on March 6th, 2024

Here's my conversation with Shawn Adrian, co-founder of Input Logic, a product design and development agency.  They're also launching their own product in 2024 in the AI journaling space, called Stilo.ai.This conversation was recorded on March 5th, 2024.{{ campaign_start }}

Brian's update was recorded on May 6th, 2024.Daniel Coulbourne is the cofounder of Thunk.dev and the co-host of the Talking Businessly podcast.  We had a great conversation about the "80/20 model" in software development consulting, striking a balance between working with clients and building your own products and projects. This conversation was recorded on February 27th, 2024.{{ campaign_start }} Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies to provide UI, UX and custom-built pages and components to give your SaaS a modern user experience.Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Jack McDade is the creator of the new course, Radical Design. He's also the founder of Statamic CMS.  In this contuation of our conversation, we talked about Jack's unique approach to designing things and how he strikes a balance between fun refreshing projects like this, and running a successful product company.Brian and Jack's conversation was recorded on February 20th, 2024.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024. Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Jack McDade is the founder of Statamic CMS and the creator of the new course, Radical Design.  In this conversation, Jack shared his story of going from film maker to full stack designer and developer to building a website CMS product.Brian and Jack's conversation was recorded on February 20th, 2024.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024. Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Sam Selikoff, cofounder of BuildUI, returns to the show and we talk all about NYC! New York City, one of my favorite places.  Brian and Sam's conversation was recorded on December 15th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024.(00:00) - Software founder life in NYC with Sam Selikoff (04:45) - What is the crowd like? (06:54) - New York's downfall - sports teams (08:42) - Working remotely in NYC (13:16) - City life vs. Suburb life (15:08) - NY energy (crazy and all!) (16:56) - Cost of living   Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Kevin Powell returns to the show where we talk about the business side of his work as a YouTuber and teacher of front-end development and CSS.  Brian and Kevin's conversation was recorded on December 7th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024.(00:00) - Building a Courses Business with a YouTube audience with Kevin Powell (03:20) - Kevin's ideal customer journey (05:04) - Using call-to-action cards on YouTube (07:21) - Kevin's channels of revenue (11:09) - Running a Discord community (14:13) - Pricing and course organization (19:22) - Once off vs Memberships (21:23) - Deciding what to create next (23:14) - Kevin's 2024 resolutions Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Lianna Patch wasn't thrilled with the work she was doing, who she was doing it for, and the lack of fun she was having as a professional copywriter. So she changed everything and relaunched her Punchline Copy business with a focus on comedic copy. Brian and Lianna's conversation was recorded on  December 13th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024.(00:00) - How Lianna Patch Reinvented Her Copywriting Business (03:34) - The evolution of Pubchline copy (08:48) - Lianna's main client base (10:12) - How to be an ideal client (12:49) - How Lianna structures her business (17:30) - Offering productized services (21:31) - ..And larger projects? (22:35) - 2024's roadmap (26:34) - Moving from consulting to "passive" revenue Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

I invited James Lewis on to help understand the idea of a “fractional product manager” (and we covered that) but it turned into James' story of how we transitioned from that into cofounder of a new SaaS, Lemon, in the payments space.  Brian and James' conversation was recorded on December 8th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024.(00:00) - Fractional Product Management to SaaS Cofounder with James Lewis (03:59) - James' current day to day (06:50) - Transitioning from dev to project management (09:56) - The first big move and early learnings (15:36) - Working as a fractional product manager for lemon (17:56) - How James landed the lemon role (20:31) - Dusting off the dev hat (23:34) - What is lemon? (25:24) - ...And how does it work? (28:44) - lemon's current roadmap Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Justin Ferriman returns and we discuss his post-exit transition to becoming a business coach for other founders. Brian and Justin's conversation was recorded on November 10th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024.(00:00) - From Founder to Coaching Founders with Justin Ferriman (03:12) - Justin's coaching story (04:55) - The Know/Like/Trust list (05:59) - Ideation to execution (07:24) - How Justin is structuring his coaching offerings (14:27) - Keeping room for growth (16:04) - Justin on marketing his coaching business (18:00) - Being active in a community > Hard sell (20:49) - Using quality content to build trust Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Sam Selikoff, cofounder of BuildUI joins me for a wide-ranging (and sometimes technical) conversation about his journey as a software engineer, and his business teaching UI development with video courses and YouTube.  Brian and Sam's conversation was recorded on December 15th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024.(00:00) - Teaching User Interface Development with Sam Selikoff (BuildUI) (06:33) - Sam's elevator pitch (08:02) - Marketing as front end only (at first)z (11:36) - BuildUI courses and staying up to date (20:03) - BuildUI's UI (...and UX) (23:22) - Sam's time at TED (28:06) - Transition from TED to BuildUI (31:31) - BuildUI origin story (34:41) - Pivoting moments for BuildUI   Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Jay Clouse, founder of Creator Science, returns to the show and we have a fun episode where we talk about our lives away from the cameras and mics to talk about how we stay fit and healthy (or at least try to be).  Brian and Jay's conversation was recorded on November 8th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on March 8th, 2024.(00:00) - The Health Pendulum as Entrepreneurs (03:25) - Physical health = mental health (05:28) - Jay's health and fitness "stack" (07:45) - Diet and portion control (10:39) - Morning person/Night troll? Brian's Product StudioMy product studio, Instrumental Products, is where I partner with SaaS companies, creators, and founders to take product ideas from concept to launched.  Got something to ship?  Let's talk!Brian's YouTube channelSubscribe to my YouTube channel where I'm building products and showing the process.Brian's NewsletterSubscribe to my newsletter where I send my best ideas and stories from working on products.This Podcast on YouTubeThis podcast is on YouTube!  You can watch full episodes on video by subscribing to the FSF Podcast Channel on YouTube.

Lianna Patch is known as a fantastic copywriter. Why? Because she's also a comedian! We talk about Lianna's passion for the craft of comedy, her comedic roots, and how she translated that into a thriving career as a copywriter.  Brian and Lianna's conversation was recorded on December 13th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on January 21st, 2024.(00:00) - Geeking out on Comedy with Lianna Patch (04:25) - Lianna's introduction to comedy (07:43) - Niching down in comedy (13:14) - Building a comedy set (16:09) - Dealing with stage fright (and monkey brain "anxiety" ) (19:09) - Lianna's comedic inspiration (20:54) - Combining comedy with copy (23:01) - Lianna's journey to "punchline copy" Full Stack FounderHelping you go full stack to take your own products from idea to design to code to launched.✉️  Get my Full Stack Founder newsletter

I spoke to Kevin Powell, YouTuber and front-end CSS teacher about how he operates his YouTube content business and how he grew to over 800,000 subscribers.  Brian and Kevin's conversation was recorded on December 7th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on January 21st, 2024.(00:00) - Teaching CSS to 800k YouTube Subscribers with Kevin Powell (07:45) - A week in the life of Kevin Powell (10:24) - Kevin's YouTube origin story (11:24) - Who is your target audience? (15:37) - Staying on the cutting edge (17:47) - Content ideation and maintaining a calendar (20:29) - Crafting the perfect video title (23:39) - The YouTube analytics rabbit hole (26:30) - Scripting and planning a video (29:17) - Outsourcing editing and post-production (31:20) - Long form vs short form content (34:00) - YouTube algorithms (or what we know about them) (35:41) - Subcribers to customers! (37:07) - Engaging with the YouTube community (39:59) - Separating content avenues Full Stack FounderHelping you go full stack to take your own products from idea to design to code to launched.✉️  Get my Full Stack Founder newsletter

Aaron Francis, creator of screencasting.com and prolific YouTuber returns to the show to talk all things video, screencasting and growing a business on YouTube.Brian and Aaron's conversation was recorded on November 16th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on January 21st, 2024.(00:00) - YouTube as a business with Aaron Francis (03:41) - Talking video and screencasting.com (05:21) - Growing multiple YouTube channels (08:57) - How many YouTube subscribers is "enough"? (14:04) - YouTube Monetization (19:56) - Imposter Syndrome as a Teacher (22:59) - Hours & commitment in a YouTube business (27:54) - Staying authentic on YouTube Full Stack FounderHelping you go full stack to take your own products from idea to design to code to launched.✉️  Get my Full Stack Founder newsletter

Justin Ferriman, founder of LearnDash, talks to me about how he started, grew, and exited from this WordPress business in the LMS space.  Brian and Justin's conversation was recorded on  November 10th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on January 21st, 2024.(00:00) - From Selling a WordPress Business to SaaS with Justin Ferriman (03:57) - Justin's business transition to coaching (06:45) - Highlights of building a business (08:33) - Taking advantage of untapped markets (12:39) - Using your audience to promote your products (14:46) - Know where your audience hangs out (16:29) - Pricing *gasp* before subscriptions (17:45) - Growing the LearnDash team (19:08) - Biggest challenges growing LearnDash (22:38) - Justin's LearnDash exit (27:29) - After the exit: What next? (33:02) - AI and it's implications on software dev Full Stack FounderHelping you go full stack to take your own products from idea to design to code to launched.✉️  Get my Full Stack Founder newsletter

 Jay Clouse, who runs Creator Science, joins me to talk all things creator businesses.  Brian and Jay's conversation was recorded on November 8th, 2023 Brian's update was recorded on January 21st, 2024.(00:00) - The Science Behind a Creator Business (06:10) - Content as a product (12:38) - Seperating personal and creator brands (19:10) - Creator Science breakdown (29:22) - Creative energy and prioritization (32:31) - Content ideation, production and output (34:36) - Side hustle to full time creator (39:51) - Where to focus your creative energy Full Stack FounderHelping you go full stack to take your own products from idea to design to code to launched.✉️  Get my Full Stack Founder newsletter

Adam Gilbert, founder of My Body Tutor, joins me to talk about how he scaled a personal fitness coaching business.  Brian and Adam's conversation was recorded on November 3rd, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on January 21st, 2024.(00:00) - Scaling a Fitness Coaching Business with Adam Gilbert (04:05) - What is My Body Tutor? (05:09) - The evolution of Adam's business (07:50) - Adam's background in health and fitness (10:50) - Taking the leap and getting those first customers (15:07) - Good businesses solve a problem (16:33) - My Body Tutor today (18:15) - Maintaining core principles in a coaching business (20:03) - My Body Tutor milestones (21:59) - From solo coach to coaching business (24:44) - Practicing routines to turn them into habits (26:13) - Business growing pains (28:08) - Adam's routines (30:09) - My Body Tutor's new plan (31:41) - Catering to a wide range of customers Full Stack FounderHelping you go full stack to take your own products from idea to design to code to launched.✉️  Get my Full Stack Founder newsletter

Dru Riley, founder of Trends.vc, returns to the show to talk about his life as a digital nomad for 3+ years.Brian and Dru's conversation was recorded on November 20th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on January 21st, 2024.(00:00) - 3+ Years of Nomad Life w/ Dru Riley (03:45) - Where in the world is Dru? (05:53) - Why choose the digital nomad lifestyle? (09:23) - Favorite places (so far)? (10:30) - Working across timezones (14:11) - Processes for life as a nomad (15:44) - Researching upcoming destinations (17:16) - Finding places to stay (19:05) - Social scenes as a digital nomad (20:46) - Challenges of living and working as a nomad Full Stack FounderHelping you go full stack to take your own products from idea to design to code to launched.✉️  Get my Full Stack Founder newsletter

Aaron Francis, creator of screencasting.com and prolific YouTuber joins me to talk about his “Era of Maximum Effort”. We get into building products businesses vs. creator businesses, and more.Brian and Aaron's conversation was recorded on November 16th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on December 8th, 2023.(00:00) - Product vs. Creator Businesses with Aaron Francis (05:16) - Conversations across podcasts (07:49) - Aaron's "era of maximum effort" (13:42) - Focus vs. many "small bets" (19:54) - What are your goals as a creator? (30:04) - The initial business idea really matters (34:06) - How to find a break and relax? Instrumental ProductsHelping you build and ship products & transition a products-based business.✉️  Get my Instrumental Products newsletter

Ian Landsman of HelpSpot joins me to unpack all things Laravel ecosystem.Brian and Ian's conversation was recorded on November 3rd, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on December 8th, 2023. (00:00) - The Laravel Ecosystem with Ian Landsman (05:05) - Ian returns to talk Laravel (08:51) - Laravel vs. Rails (11:22) - Developer ecosystem (13:26) - Upgrading Laravel (15:08) - Front-end frameworks for Laravel (21:28) - Young developers learning on today's tools (24:36) - Tradeoffs (24:54) - Funding open source innovation Instrumental ProductsHelping you build and ship products & transition a products-based business.✉️  Get my Instrumental Products newsletter

Colleen Schnettler, founder of HelloQuery, joins me for a wide-ranging discussion around the question of choosing the right product idea to commit to as an entrepreneur. Brian and Colleen recorded this conversation on November 17th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on December 8th, 2023. (00:00) - Colleen Schnettler (05:33) - Twitter, Conference, and Podcast friends! (07:15) - Transitioning between between ideas (08:00) - Joining TinySeed (08:59) - the ZipMessage to Clarityflow story (as of Nov 2023) (20:26) - Emotional Runway (21:51) - Choosing a product idea (25:38) - Converting a service into a SaaS (30:33) - Riding a wave (34:30) - Evaluating potential ideas (38:04) - Validating ideas before building (45:33) - Audience growth vs. not (49:40) - What are you optimizing for? (55:04) - Survivorship bias (56:42) - Looking back on mistakes (59:03) - Shipping tiny ideas Instrumental ProductsHelping you build and ship products & transition a products-based business.✉️  Get my Instrumental Products newsletter

Dru Riley, founder of Trends.vc joins me to talk about building his Newsletter and Community business and the systems and processes he's used to grow it.Brian and Dru's conversation was recorded on November 20th, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on December 8th, 2023. (00:00) - Systems to run & grow a newsletter business w/ Dru Riley (Trends.vc) (05:48) - Newsletter + Community (08:54) - Breakdown of revenue channels (11:49) - Launching a podcast for Trends.vc (15:45) - Pro membership model (17:54) - Process and delegation (23:01) - Choosing the right topics (26:37) - Marketing funnel Instrumental ProductsHelping you build and ship products & transition a products-based business.✉️  Get my Instrumental Products newsletter

Ian Landsman and his team at Userscape work on HelpSpot, a well-established SaaS product for customer support.  And after well over 10 years in business, they decided to embark on a full rebuild of their app.Brian and Ian's conversation was recorded on November 3rd, 2023.Brian's update was recorded on December 8th, 2023. (00:00) - Rebuilding a SaaS with Ian Landsman (05:19) - Ian returns! (06:10) - Rebuild? Redesign? Relaunch? What is this? (07:07) - Is this a SaaS? (11:08) - Is this the first rebuild? (13:57) - Why rebuild? Why now? (20:20) - AI in customer support tools (25:18) - Killing vs. reworking features (28:37) - Thinking about competitors (31:57) - Roadmap and timeframe (33:05) - Founder designing vs delegating (36:51) - Rolling out the rebuild Instrumental ProductsHelping you build and ship products & transition a products-based business.✉️  Get my Instrumental Products newsletter

Open Threads is returning!This is a quick update where I (Brian Casel) give you a preview of what's to come in the upcoming weekly episodes of Open Threads.  Plus a note on some changes to the format, including an interesting use of "dynamic audio" in Open Threads.  Listen in to hear more.The next full episode will drop on Wednesday, December 13th, followed by new episodes every Wednesday throughout 2024!Talk soon!

Hey! Just want to let you know that I'll be taking a break (for a bit) from recording new episodes of this Open Threads podcast.But don't unsubscribe! I promise to come back to this feed with new conversations as soon as the opportunity arises.In the meantime, be sure to check out my other podcast, Bootstrapped Web, which my co-host Jordan and I continue to publish on a weekly(ish) basis. That show is where we both share our behind-the-scenes real-time stories of running our businesses. 10-years in and our long-time fans really seem to enjoy it. I invite you to come along for the ride there!I'm always sharing my updates on Twitter @casjam and in my newsletter, which you can subscribe to at briancasel.com.I'll be back on this feed soon enough!

Lemon Squeezy, the new platform for building SaaS businesses went through quite a few iterations before J.R. Farr and the Make Lemonade crew figured out what it is and who it's for… And how to make people aware. Lots of gems in this conversation!Watch this episode on YouTubeJ.R. Farr:J.R.'s company, Make LemonadeJ.R.'s product, Lemon SqueezyJ.R. on Twitter: @jrfarrBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

I invited Corbett back on the show when I noticed he's been picking up steam on his Substack-based newsletter. Clearly, he's in the exploration phase of his next entrepreneurial chapter. The perfect time for an Open Threads check-in :)Watch this episode on YouTubeCorbett Barr:Corbett's website, Starting ThingsCorbett on Twitter: @CorbettBarrBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Founder Summit was one of the best conferences I've attended because it's built on the idea that a conference is really about the relationships, not the headline speakers. Tyler Tringas, founder of Calm Company Fund, takes us through how Founder Summit came together and where it's going next.Watch this episode on YouTubeTyler Tringas:Tyler's company, Calm Company FundTyler on Twitter: @tylertringasBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Harry Morton, founder of Lower Street, is back on the show today to take us inside the creative process behind big brand podcast productions. These aren't your run-of-the-mill interview shows. This is what next-level podcasting looks like — and how Harry built an amazing agency business around it.Watch this episode on YouTubeHarry Morton:Harry's company, Lower StreetHarry on Twitter: @podcastharryBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations. Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

In 2020, after a hugely successful run building and exiting MOJO Marketplace, J.R. Farr announced the formation of a “dream team” new company known as Make Lemonade. What they're making is truly impressive. We get into it!Watch this episode on YouTubeJ.R. Farr:J.R.'s company, Make LemonadeJ.R.'s product, Lemon SqueezyJ.R. on Twitter: @jrfarrBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

After building, selling and exiting Fizzle, a community and content-based business, Corbett Barr decided to hit the reset button. How? By deleting all of his social media and past blog content to start with a clean slate. We explore what came next.Watch this episode on YouTubeCorbett Barr:Corbett's website, Starting ThingsCorbett on Twitter: @CorbettBarrBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

From bootstrapping and selling a SaaS to… Starting a fund for bootstrapped SaaS companies. Tyler Tringas talks about that transition and what he's learned since starting and growing Calm Company Fund.Watch this episode on YouTubeTyler Tringas:Guest's company, Calm Company FundGuest on Twitter: @tylertringasBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

It's strange how little we talk about the code side of building and running a software business. So Benedikt Deicke, technical co-founder of Userlist, joins me to geek out on Rails, front-end frameworks, software testing, and more.Watch this episode on YouTubeBenedikt Deicke:Benedikt's company, UserlistBenedikt on Twitter: @benediktdeickeBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

I'm on a quest to geek out with all my founder friends who are also musicians. Harry Morton shares a love for the combo of tech + creativity in music production. We geeked out about pursuing careers in recording studios, synthesizers, making music as a hobby, and buying unnecessary music gear.Watch this episode on YouTubeHarry Morton:Harry's company, Lower StreetHarry on Twitter: @podcastharryBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations. Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Craig and his family moved to France for 5 years, but they've moved back here to the states. We unpack life and business abroad vs. stateside and the many tradeoffs.Watch this episode on YouTubeCraig Hewitt:Craig's company, CastosCraig on Twitter: @TheCraigHewittBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

In SaaS, speed matters. A lot. Benedikt Deicke, co-founder of Userlist, joins me to chat about shipping speed and how we decide what to build next. It's too easy to get these essentials wrong!Watch this episode on YouTubeBenedikt Deicke:Benedikt's company, UserlistBenedikt on Twitter: @benediktdeickeBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

I could talk for days about music. So can Justin Jackson. So we geeked out on our favorite bands, documentaries, and how these experiences actually shape us as entrepreneurs (believe it or not!).Watch this episode on YouTubeJustin Jackson:Justin's company, TransistorJustin on Twitter: @mijustinBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

After exiting his 1st SaaS, then shuttering all his social media profiles, Nathan Powell is back online with a new idea for a SaaS. Let's dig into it.Watch this episode on YouTubeNathan Powell:Nathan's previous company, NusiiNathan's current company, Feature FluxNathan on Twitter: nathanjpowellUXBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

The story of why Nathan Powell quit the internet for a while after exiting his SaaS business (and why he came back).Watch this episode on YouTubeNathan Powell:Nathan's previous company, NusiiNathan's current company, Feature FluxNathan on Twitter: nathanjpowellUXBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Tyler's back on the show to talk about teams. Remote, in-house, culture, experience, and everything in between.Watch this episode on YouTube Tyler King:Tyler's company, Less Annoying CRMTyler on Twitter: @TylerMKingBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

Building in public ain't all about the highlight reel. Craig Hewitt and I agree that there's so much more to learn from our fails. The question is, how can we share them publicly in a helpful (and healthy) way?Watch this episode on YouTubeCraig Hewitt:Craig's company, CastosCraig on Twitter: @TheCraigHewittBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessage (today's sponsor). ZipMessage is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.

"two things that have kind of remained constant are snowboarding and music. And I mean, I like different types of music and my snowboarding has changed, but those are the two things I've always been into that stayed the same." - Justin JacksonWatch this episode on YouTubeJustin Jackson:Justin's company, TransistorJustin on Twitter:  @mijustinBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today's sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 01:Brain Casel: The price of being into snowboarding or skiing these days is just insane.Justin Jackson: Yeah.Brain Casel: I mean, and that like it it's been insane for a number of years now. But then once you have kids, I mean, I've got a six and an eight-year-old who have been taking lessons for the last like three seasons. So you've got, like, rentals and lessons for them. And then, you know, four lift tickets, I mean, we go to a crappy hill in the, in the Northeast for one day plus the hotel room, plus driving there.I mean, that's like $1,000 weekend at least, you know. Yeah, it's crazy.Justin Jackson: It's pricey and it's always been expensive. But I think a family pass at our hill probably costs three or $4,000 a year I think. Mhm. And I've just gotten a family passes every year, even as my kids have gotten older and not been as into it. When we moved here my dream is like they're all going to be pro skiers and snowboarders that they're going to love it so much and you know, they all learn to ski and you know, they, they like it enough to do it a couple of times a year or whatever but. Yeah, especially my older too. They're definitely not as into it as me, but you know, that's cool too. I, it's still one thing that's interesting to me is there's not a lot that's the same from when I was in high school with me, but two things that have kind of remained constant are snowboarding and music and I mean, I like different types of music and my snowboarding has changed, but those are the two things I've always been into that stayed the same. And I, I just think it's so fun to be able to enjoy something for so long and have it evolve as I've gotten older.Brain Casel: It's really great, it is a great thing to be into as a, as like a fun sport hobby and like for me, I probably you and everyone else who does it is I love that it's so seasonal. Like, like I'm already like so like I can't wait for the snow to get here. And get into another season.And the thing that I love about it now is being an adult and a business owner is it's one of the few things that really takes me out of the way it makes me present.Justin Jackson: You know? Yeah.Brain Casel: Like being, you know, going down the mountain on a snowboard like you have to be present, otherwise you hit a tree or something, right? So like, that's one of the things that, like, for me is like a forcing function to like, it's, it's relaxing it's active, but it's it relaxes my mind.Justin Jackson: Yeah.Quote 02:Justin Jackson: That was like my kind of introduction to the industry. Yeah, they're still around "allofskateboards.com" and by this point, his whole story was so interesting because, you know, he was this a really good snowboarder. And then had these injuries and had to pivot. And then he started making these snowboards. And because he was a snowboarder, he and he was also just kind of engineering-minded.He knew how he wanted to build these and shape them. And so he was doing all of this by himself. And then it got popular in Japan. So he started building all these boards for Japan and was doing great. But then there were so many orders that he had to hire somebody, and they really messed up in order.And it almost bankrupted him as a company, And so I was the first person he'd hired since then. And he's kind of like he's just a really unique guy. Like he's kind of grumpy and just doesn't like working with people. And so I had to really prove myself. I wanted to work in the office like I wanted to do business stuff like sales and marketing and, you know, all that stuff. But he was like, No, you got to start working in the shop and I'm terrible. What year is this? This is 1999 or 2000. I'm 19 or 20 at the time and he gets me working in the shop and at this point, we're mostly, I mean.Brian Casel: 1999 I mean snowboarding is already pretty big at that point. Like it's snowboarding a big deal by that point and like all that. Justin Jackson: Yeah, snowboarding was at that point you know, the first wave had already happened for sure. And that was probably actually peak snowboarding. I think my generation was peak snowboarding from 95 to 2005. Yeah. It's probably the best that's around the time, but we're.Brian Casel: Probably around the same age and I yeah, I picked it up in.Justin Jackson: Like high school and into college and yeah, I mean, it's hard to explain to people now, but snowboarding was a cultural phenomenon, like every kid had a snowboarding poster on their wall, whether they snowboard it or not. It was like every kid was buying Snowboarder magazine whether they were snowboarding or not.Quote 03:Justin Jackson: I teamed up with initially it was like I was working a full-time job, and so we hired my brother to manage it. My younger brother and I were probably 21 at the time. And then my friend Adrian was a skateboarder and I started my first business ever really was in grade 12 with him. We'd put on a rave together and actually done really well.Brian Casel: And so another cultural force of the nineties.Justin Jackson: Yeah, another cultural force in the nineties. And so it just seemed like this would be a great agent. And I, you know, he's a skateboarder I'm a snowboarder. I'd worked in the industry and it was, it just felt like this is going to be a great combination.Brian Casel: And like location-wise, you want to do it in your hometown.Justin Jackson: And we want to do it in our hometown, which is probably a mistake because this was.Brian Casel: The area that that's like not that close to big mountains.Justin Jackson: Yeah. It's we're like, yes, Stoney plain in Spruce Grove or these bedroom communities but that's still a lot.Brian Casel: I mean, like even growing like I grew up in Long Island, New York. And then even up here in Connecticut, like there's plenty of snowboard and ski shops in the suburbs for these families who buy stuff. Yeah. So take road trips, right?Justin Jackson: I think the problem was that Edmonton was still close enough. It was 30 minutes away It was a city of 1.2 million people at the time, probably. And I, I mean, I've written quite a bit about the real deal. The shop was called The Real Deal. I've written quite a bit about, you know, the mistakes we made. And I think one is just ignored brings people's natural momentum.So if you're, if you're a teenager in Stony Plain, Spruce Grove on the weekends, if you're going to go shopping, you want to go to the big city, you want to go to Edmonton because it's exciting, right? It's, it's that you can hit a bunch of stores. You can go out to eat, you can cruise White Avenue and, you know, all the cool strips in Edmonton.And we just ignored that. And that natural momentum and thought that people would care about like ideology, like, like shop local. But people actually don't give a shit about that stuff, you know what I mean?

“You're not going to learn what it's like to run a SaaS business unless you try to launch a SaaS business.” - Dan RowdenWatch this episode on YouTubeDan RowdenDan's company, ilo.soDan on Twitter: @drBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today's sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 01:Brian Casel: It's obvious that the debate that comes up around this, right? Like, well, what if you were to focus full-time on one and just not do anything on the others? Right. And I mean, where do you stand on that right now?Dan Rowden: Um, most of the time I find it very difficult to pick one side and then stick with it because when if he if he's stick to the do multiple verdict side, then you might be missing out on the potential of taking one much further than you can when you're working on four or five things at once. Whereas if he if you do, then go to one project which one do you pick?Dan Rowden: Because I'm in a position where I have multiple projects, I would have to pick one. It's not like I'm starting from zero and just starting one. So I then have to like take the chance on one of them. And kind of leave the others to kind of just do nothing for a bit. And maybe I'd pick their own project.Dan Rowden: Maybe I'd let the other ones die off by accident when they could have actually kind of just stayed on. Like, there are a lot of pros and cons to both sides. Personally, I like working on different projects and I like being able to switch between things because each of my projects I started because I wanted them to exist and because I see a value in them existing and I like working on them as problems and as markets.Dan Rowden: So know to like pick yellow or pick cove and just do that would be a shame to me really. At the end of the day that might not work on the other ones.Quote 02:Dan Rowden: I think I tweeted about this recently. Is that, like my big project hasn't started yet and sometimes feels like whatever I'm working on now is just kind of those small kinds of getting me to somewhere else? And that maybe, maybe the one big project is in the future somewhere which is kind of a weird way to think about, Brian Casel: I mean, the work you're working on because... Dan Rowden: because right now this is like my everything. It supports my family. And it's what I do every day to think of it and to think of it as just like a temporary kind of stepping stone to something else. Yeah. Strange to think sometimes.Brian Casel: But that's what it is, though, really. That's what it is. I mean, especially in like the first half of the career, it's you're not going to learn what it's like to run a SaaS business unless you try to launch a SaaS business. Right. And chances are the first couple of ideas are not either not going to work at all. Or they might work a little bit, but they're not going to grow fast. That's, you know. And then there are exceptions where it does grow a lot. As I remember my very, very first product was selling WordPress themes. This was in 2008 - 2009, and I remember thinking because at the time I was just a freelance web designer doing WordPress sites for clients.I was like, who? Who knows if I'll be able to sell even one of this WordPress? Yeah. But I know that if I spend the next three or four months, building out my own custom "theme shop", I'm going to learn a ton about what it's like to try to build and sell a digital product on the Internet. And I did. And then it was like the most amazing thing to be able to sell a $50 WordPress theme. Like And the same thing I did Restaurant Engine, which was like a SaaS for four restaurant websites. It's like, I have no personal connection to the restaurant industry, but it was the first time, like taking like trying to see what it's like to, to build a staff.Brian Casel: Right. And then and then eventually I was even able to sell that business. And then I got to learn what it's like to sell a business. Yeah. And these are just building blocks that you can build on and opt and you know, the other thing, I don't know if you've experienced this in any of you in deciding what new projects to start up, but for me, it's always been every single new idea is a reaction to the previous one.Quote 03:Brian Casel: But aside from launching a new product, maybe on product and on Twitter and on indie hackers and stuff like that, and then aside from launching new features into a product maybe sharing that out, what else do you generally do from a marketing standpoint? And do you think about any projects around like let's see if we can double MRR in this product by doing some project?Do you ever think about that?Dan Rowden: No, not typically. Um, uh, yeah. Marketing is, is hard. Um, I rely on Twitter a lot for reaching new people, especially with your because it's a, it's a product of you have built like a referral affiliate system into that to get users to bring in new users. Um, you know, has a blog that I write on. I should write on more which brings in these in a lot of traffic.Um, I have a few good keywords, especially Twitter spaces. Analytics seems to be doing quite well with bringing in new people for that Um, yeah. Like, I mean, I don't tend to be able to come up with like marketing kind of to what the word would be like campaigns or just like special events or like things like that. It's more like generic just kind of churning out content making sure the marketing site gets picked up in search engines, making sure that people that are using the product talk about it to other people.

“It's exactly the problem you just said, it's like, we put effort into it. We tried to make it good, but we were doing what we wanted. We haven't given anyone anything they wanted" - Tyler KingWatch this episode on YouTubeTyler King:Tyler's company, Less Annoying CRMTyler on Twitter: @TylerMKingBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today's sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 01:Brian Casel: When it comes to hiring people to work on marketing stuff. What's been your approach to that? Like, are were you or are you ever like like you're going to be hands-on in it or I'm going to hire like a head of marketing to figure it out and run with it or outsource to an agency. What are your thoughts on this?Tyler King: That kind of. Yeah, I'm happy to share. But let me preface this by saying, like, I'm this is my greatest weakness or like the thing that we've probably done worse the like just a terrible job in the early days. Like, For I did most of the marketing for a long time myself. My brother, who's the other co-founder, did some as well. We kind of like. So one of my weaknesses is outsourcing. I'm just like terrible at quick transactional relationships. So I've basically never effectively hired anyone that's not a full-time employee, which is I think, the opposite of most people in our space. The good side of this is like I think we've got a really good culture and all this, but the bad side is like it's not. I've never been in a situation where it's like, Oh, we need some quick copywriting. Let me pay someone for $20 to do some copyright I just would do it myself and I'm okay at it. But I'm not an expert on any of this stuff. We didn't have a real marketing person until two years ago.Brian Casel: So like, no, the person who was working on any sort of marketing.Tyler King: I mean, me, me. And then so our customer, the biggest team of the company is CRM coaches. Which is basically customer service. They get 20% time, so one day a week they can do other stuff. So we've had a lot of CRM coaches like enjoying writing is a common characteristic of people who like customer service. So a lot of them have chosen to write help articles, write blog posts, to create content like that, but not necessarily.Brian Casel: that model of content marketing essentially. Right. Like having your, your, your subject matter experts, you know?Tyler King: Yeah.Brian Casel: Some kind of.Tyler King: The problem is we're not subject matter experts like, you know, close the CRM where that's "stellies". Yeah. So "stellies" is like this Uber sales guy, right? He knows everything about sales. And that's why CRM"s are consumed by salespeople. I look at his content, and I'm like, wow, I wish anyone at LessAnnoyingCRM had that kind of understanding of how like we have no salespeople, none of us have ever done sales before. We're selling to salespeople. We're experts on how to build software and how to provide customer service, which is not what our customers want to know.Brian Casel: Hmm.Tyler King: So I agree with you. That would be a great model, but this is one of our great struggles, is the thing like we can write interesting content, but it is interesting to people who would never use LessAnnoyingCRM.Quote 02:Tyler King: I feel like most marketing attempts in my experience have failed, like, at the end of the day, you could look back on it and it's exactly the problem you just said. It's like we put effort into it. We try to make it good, but we were doing what we wanted. We weren't giving anyone anything they wanted.And it really sucks when you have to market your marketing, like you make an e-book and then you're like, Okay, now I have to okay. How does anyone hear about this e-book? And it's like, if they're not already looking for it, like, this is just in Jackson Hole thing about like writing an existing wave, right? You're putting something out there even if it's good.But if nobody wants it now, you've got a second marketing challenge of getting people to the top of your main marketing funnel.Quote 03:Brian Casel: You're over ten years in now in this business.  Tyler King: Mm hmm. Mm-hmm.  Brian Casel: We talked about how you have the "LessAnnoyingCRM" brands. Well, like, have you thought about just firing up a new product?Tyler King: Yes, we have had a few misadventures in this in the past.Brian Casel: Like, less annoying invoicing and less annoying Yeah.Tyler King: So our name as a company is actually "LessAnnoying Software LLC" because this has been kind of the idea. Like, no one grows up and dreams of starting a CRM company. Like, it's a pretty boring thing to make. But the idea was like, let's, like, what is the core thing that everything else would build off of? And so, yeah, that has been the plan. And we've every once in a while, we start going down that path. And then coincidentally, the main business, like, starts doing better And we're like, it's hard to justify putting resources into this side thing when, you know, you could put the same resources into like you've just got a lot more leverage focusing, I think. But I'm conflicted about that.Brian Casel: One argument to make for it, I think, is that you already have a huge customer base and an even larger audience like an email list. Right. Or at least people who have tried it in the past maybe didn't fully convert. But then you still have all these paying customers. Right. So you instantly have an audience to, you know, like like whatever new product you launch, as long as it's in the same set of needs, you know, you can instantly launch two over 10k MMR, right?Tyler King: Like yeah, I think you're absolute.Brian Casel: Right of launching it, you know, and that like you're at a huge head start against every other new SaaS startup, you know.Tyler King: Yeah. So how do you decide whether to build it as a new product versus build it into the existing one? Is one question. I've struggled with What you're saying makes absolute sense from like our revenue. Like, if we build it into our existing product and it's like providing value to people and it gets a lot of usages, but you don't make any money off of it.Brian Casel: Yeah, sort of depends on what kind of product it is, I would think. Yeah, the breakdown there would be it goes in and we're about to build a bunch of new features, which maybe should be their own product, but I don't, I don't know it, but the breakdown I would think is like if it's still in CRM land, but just bigger, more powerful CRM land or maybe like a super automated CRM, like that, 's like a new, more expensive plan on the existing product. But if it's an adjacent product, that some customers might find valuable and useful and other customers might not be interested at all, you know, then spin off a separate product. But I really do think that, like, you also have the branding advantage to like, you know, you could literally call your line of products like less annoying this, less annoying that, you know.Tyler King: Yeah, I think it's a good idea.

“If you made somebody laugh, then you have a spark of what it takes and you just have to work at it.” - Kalen JordanWatch this episode on YouTubeKalen Jordan:Kalen's company, Commercehero.ioKalen on Twitter: @kalenjordanBrian Casel:Brian's company, ZipMessageBrian on Twitter: @casjamThanks to ZipMessageZipMessage (today's sponsor) is the video messaging tool that replaces live calls with asynchronous conversations.  Use it free or tune into the episode for an exclusive coupon for Open Threads listeners.Quotes from this episode:Quote 01:Brian Casel: I'm really curious about this concept of moving from one business that you spend multiple years on to the next, right? Like Is there any set of criteria or big concepts like, oh, like it's got to check these boxes, whatever the idea ends up being like, it's got to be this and it definitely can't be that like?  Kalen Jordan: Yeah, that's, that's a great question. So I'm sick of recruiting, even though I felt like I did it in a way that I was happy with the way I did it. I just I'm just tired of it. Like it's tired of it. Also, the building model for Commerce Hero, I think, was kind of innovative for a recruiting thing, which was monthly. So you pay 12% on a monthly basis for up to 12 months.Most of them just charge you upfront for like the whole year of salary or whatever. And so but it would end after 12 months. So after 12 months, they're there, they're done. And if they hire somebody else, then, you know, they pay But I wanted something that is recurring. I was one of the criteria.I wanted them, the payments to not end And beyond that, I think really beyond that, like, I feel like I've been in like a slow-moving mid-life crisis for like five years or so. And I've just been trying to figure out what I really want to do, what I'm excited about. I, you know. And so basically the criteria is like, what's something I'm interested in?What's something I'm really excited about? And it's it can be challenging when your interests can change from day to day, month to month, whatever but I think I have a tendency to take an idea and run with it. And then, you know, a year later, you go, do I even want to be doing this? But you got to keep doing it kind of a thing.Quote 02:Brian Casel: A big value to a company with their people. Are there network effects? Right. Especially people in like sales and biz dev and things like that like how much can they leverage their network to bring opportunities to the business? And yeah, a company buying this for their employees is almost like buying a network for that. Yeah.A company makes its employees more networked.Kalen Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Community. Yeah. It's a similar, I think, value prop to when you send an employee to a conference, they're going to learn, they're going to you, they're going to learn from the top from formal talks. They're going to learn from networking with people. They're going to be pumped that you sent them to a conference. So it's a kind of a, you know, a simplified version of that.Quote 03:Brian Casel: And I've heard that before from other communities like they were just active in the community and then they became a moderator and then. Kalen Jordan: Right. Right. I think that I think could be part of it. Although I've kind of embraced the idea. I'm just going to work solo. I get weird about equity. I get weird about partnership percentages.But the thing that I'm excited about is not having a product that I have to build. It's just slack and so then it's really all going to be about the network, the people vetting the people, and this, you know, selling it right Like doing the outreach around it. And as I think about that, I go, you know, maybe that's more my sweet spot is like not trying to build the product itself.Brian Casel: Yeah.