Podcasts about LMS

What if educating your people so well that they could leave was exactly the point? At Your Health, that's not a risk to manage — it's the philosophy that built an entire learning ecosystem. In this episode, Jamie talks with Aubrey Wall, who came to Your Health from a background in education and now leads Your Health University, the organization's learning management system and continuous-development engine. Aubrey brings an educator's eye to a fast-evolving healthcare environment, where best practice changes by the day and meeting patients where they are demands that staff never stop learning. Here's what you'll hear: Why a healthcare company runs 12-month, Department of Labor–registered apprenticeships — including programs in management, value-based care, population health, and hospice aide preparation How gamification is being built into nurse instruction (straight from Aubrey's dissertation research) The difference between Your Health University (your classroom) and the Hub (your resource library) How LinkedIn Learning delivered roughly $4.2 million in CEUs to staff last year Meeting Leah — the new AI assistant that helps employees find exactly the right course If you've ever believed growing your people is a cost rather than the whole point, this conversation will change how you think. Press play, then go ask Leah a question. www.YourHealth.Org

In this episode, James Whelan and Heath Moss discuss market updates, small cap investing strategies, recent travel experiences, and insights into commodities like oil and gold, along with sports and World Cup predictions.Also, would you prefer the nasal spray or the tongue strip for ED?Mentions of LTP, LMS, ILT, MRZSupport this show http://supporter.acast.com/the-bip-show. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Faut-il faire un feedback immédiatement après avoir observé un comportement problématique ? Ou vaut-il mieux attendre quelques heures, voire quelques jours ?

76% des dirigeants interrogés par le CJD se déclarent inquiets de la situation politique. Pourtant certains tiennent, avancent, transforment. Ce que le leadership exige vraiment dans un monde où les tempêtes ne s'arrêtent plus.Dans cet épisode, Delphine Zanelli reçoit Mathieu Hetzer, président national du Centre des Jeunes Dirigeants (CJD), et Quitterie Idiart, vice-présidente du CJD, tous deux également dirigeants de leur propre entreprise.Les dirigeants se réveillent à 3h ou 4h du matin. Le "petit vélo" recommence. Le stress est permanent, l'injonction contradictoire aussi : gérer la trésorerie aujourd'hui, transformer le modèle demain, embarquer les équipes maintenant, penser au territoire dans dix ans. Le baromètre du CJD de mars 2026, 560 répondants, le chiffre précisément : ressenti global à 5,9 sur 10, 60% sans visibilité sur leur marché, 76% inquiets de la situation politique. Mathieu Hetzer formule la question que cette réalité pose : "Pouvons-nous encore diriger en quête de performance permanente dans ce monde instable ?"La réponse de Quitterie Idiart passe par un concept précis. La robustesse. Garder des marges de manœuvre pour faire face aux chocs qui vont arriver, plutôt qu'optimiser dans un monde qui n'existe plus. Concrètement : passer de la spécialisation à la polyvalence, travailler simultanément sur les trois horizons (activité présente, nouvelles pistes, activité de demain), construire des équipes capables d'absorber plutôt que de seulement exécuter. Cette transformation du management est au cœur de la commission nationale "Sur le chemin de la robustesse" lancée par le CJD. Les pratiques managériales portées par le mouvement s'inscrivent dans une vision du futur du travail où la polyvalence et la responsabilité distribuée remplacent l'optimisation à court terme.L'échange aborde aussi la gouvernance partagée comme levier concret de leadership et d'engagement des collaborateurs. Mathieu Hetzer l'a mise en place dans sa propre entreprise : stratégie co-construite via des ateliers d'intelligence collective, décision finale qui reste celle du dirigeant, mais charge mentale distribuée. Un collaborateur qui co-décide ne peut plus se désolidariser de la direction prise. Son engagement est directement en jeu. Le CJD fonctionne sur un principe de confiance et de bienveillance sans complaisance, un cadre qui permet aux dirigeants de parler vrai entre pairs. Le rôle politique du dirigeant, au sens de contribution active à la cité, est également exploré dans l'échange.Mathieu Hetzer et Quitterie Idiart parlent à la fois depuis le terrain de leurs propres entreprises et depuis un mouvement de 6 000 dirigeants fondé en 1938. Le CJD a produit un baromètre chiffré en mars 2026. Ce sont des données directement issues du terrain. Le leadership qu'ils décrivent n'est pas une posture. C'est une pratique quotidienne, construite dans la durée.Cet épisode donne des éléments concrets pour identifier les premiers pas vers un modèle d'entreprise plus robuste, expérimenter la gouvernance partagée sans renoncer à sa responsabilité de dirigeant, et comprendre pourquoi le sens, le lien et la joie deviennent des leviers opérationnels pour faire tenir les équipes dans la durée.CHAPITRAGE :(00:00) Introduction : diriger dans un monde qui a changé de nature(04:25) Ce qui empêche vraiment de dormir : le moralomètre CJD 2026(09:14) L'injonction contradictoire : gérer le court terme et transformer le long terme(17:00) Le rôle politique du dirigeant dans la cité(24:00) Du je au nous : se transformer pour mieux prendre soin de ses équipes(29:39) De la performance à la robustesse : un nouveau cadre pour piloter(38:22) Gouvernance partagée et intelligence collective en pratique(49:19) Renaissance, valanche et joie : vers un souffle collectif

Faire un feedback à un collaborateur senior est souvent plus délicat qu'il n'y paraît.

Send us Fan MailRobin Daniels is the Chief Business Officer at Zensai and a seasoned tech executive with stints at Salesforce, LinkedIn, Box and WeWork. Recorded live from the floor of HumanX 2026, this lightning round explores what it really takes to create an environment where people are motivated to grow, learn and do their best work every day.Robin and host Dan Turchin dig into why most LMS platforms have failed employees, how AI is changing the relationship between learning and performance, and why investing in people is not just the right thing to do but a proven path to better business outcomes.What You'll LearnWhy 80% of employees are disengaged and what organizations can do about itHow AI-powered learning delivers the right skills at the right moment, not generic compliance trainingHow Zensai uses AI to coach managers and strengthen the employee-manager relationshipWhy proving the link between learning and performance is the key to making L&D a strategic priorityWhy the future belongs to humans who combine technical skills with taste, judgment and soft skills 

93 % des entreprises ont commencé à déployer l'IA. 30 % savent vraiment ce qu'elles en font.Dans cet épisode de L'Entreprise de demain, Delphine Zanelli reçoit Brice Gaillard, directeur général d'Apolearn, plateforme de digital learning partenaire de cette saison, pour une conversation au cœur du futur du travail. Brice accompagne des équipes RH et formation depuis dix ans. Il a intégré l'IA dans sa plateforme il y a trois ans pour résoudre de vrais problèmes opérationnels. Ce terrain lui donne un point de vue que les discours généraux sur l'IA n'ont pas.Ce qu'il observe chez ses clients : le problème du déploiement de l'IA n'est jamais là où on croit. L'IA ne tolère pas le flou. Ce qu'on n'a pas formulé, elle ne peut pas l'inventer. Déployer l'IA exige de mettre à plat ses processus, son expertise, ses façons de faire. Tout ce qui était implicite dans l'organisation doit devenir explicite. Et c'est là que ça coince.La première question à poser n'est donc pas "comment utiliser l'IA" mais "pour quoi faire". Quelle stratégie business, et comment l'IA vient en être au service. 74 % des dirigeants espéraient une hausse de chiffre d'affaires. 20 % y sont parvenus. L'écart tient souvent à l'absence de réponse à cette question.Quand cette question n'est pas posée, les équipes trouvent leurs propres réponses. 55 % des salariés utilisent l'IA sans le dire à leur employeur. 1 prompt sur 12 contient des données sensibles, des coordonnées de clients, des données d'employés, des secrets industriels. Ce shadow IA n'est pas un problème de mauvaise volonté. C'est la conséquence d'un déploiement construit sans les équipes. (Source : Capgemini Research Institute, 2025)Et si l'IA prend en charge une part croissante des tâches techniques, que reste-t-il de spécifiquement humain ? C'est là que le futur du travail prend une tournure inattendue. Dans la Silicon Valley en ce moment, les formations qui progressent le plus vite sont les soft skills. Apprendre à apprendre, maîtriser la langue, développer l'esprit critique. Brice y voit une transformation du management en profondeur : ce qui était secondaire devient central.Pour développer ces compétences, les approches traditionnelles montrent leurs limites. Le catalogue annuel, conçu une fois par an, déconnecté des usages réels du terrain. Brice défend une logique de formation continue, portée par les experts métiers eux-mêmes, plus proche de la réalité opérationnelle. Une approche que l'IA rend possible à l'échelle, en particulier pour le tutorat, impossible à déployer massivement sans ressources supplémentaires.Ce qui amène la question que presque personne ne pose encore. Les tâches qu'on automatise aujourd'hui, rédiger des briefs, synthétiser, analyser, ce sont exactement les tâches qui permettaient aux juniors d'apprendre en faisant. Les juniors d'aujourd'hui sont les seniors de demain. L'engagement des collaborateurs, leur développement, le futur du travail de toute l'organisation en dépendent. Brice défend un principe simple : ce n'est pas parce qu'on peut automatiser qu'il faut le faire.Un échange concret pour tout DRH, manager ou responsable formation qui veut comprendre ce que l'IA révèle vraiment de son organisation et construire son leadership sur ce sujet avec des repères solides.(01:09) L'IA agentique : ce que c'est vraiment (03:06) La pire façon de déployer l'IA (10:48) Où en sont vraiment les entreprises (16:52) Les compétences qui vont compter demain (26:03) Repenser la formation : du catalogue au terrain (33:39) Les juniors face à l'IA (39:09) 5 clés pour intégrer l'IA avec succès

Eric Casaburi — founder of Serotonin Centers and former builder of Retro Fitness — is back to break down one of the most exciting business models emerging at the intersection of fitness and longevity medicine. In this episode, Eric walks us through the creation of SLIM Gym (Serotonin Light Impact Model), a turnkey longevity clinic concept that plugs directly into existing gym and fitness studio spaces (think 200–500 square feet of unused office or childcare rooms). It delivers hormone replacement therapy, medical weight loss, GLP-1 protocols, peptide therapy, IV therapy, and comprehensive lab work to gym members—without the gym owner ever touching a medical compliance headache. Eric shares the real data behind why active gym members on longevity protocols retain at dramatically higher rates, why GLP-1s may actually be a "gateway drug" into fitness culture, how Serotonin handles HIPAA compliance and nurse practitioner training through a robust internal LMS, and why he believes the next major wave in the fitness industry isn't a new piece of equipment — it's the full integration of preventative health and performance medicine on the gym floor. Key Takeaways: 

Chris Badgett argues in this LMScast episode why LMS and CRM should be handled as a single, integrated system rather than as distinct tools by any professional online learning company. He highlights that whereas CRM technologies handle marketing, automation, and customer connections, platforms like LifterLMS handle the learning process. WP Fusion, which serves as the […] The post Your Course Site Is Half-Built Without WP Fusion appeared first on LMScast.

This week we talk about what's going on with the rubium mining and smithing xp rates, changes to sailing combat, and we do a Q&A.If you're struggling, find a crisis helpline in your country here: https://findahelpline.comUse code "BUNE20" for 20% off your order from https://mitchiefox.com! Episode 6 of Michelle's GM series: https://youtu.be/iCbKp7Bp-ew?si=gAe668HY5X4H1MGrEPISODE TIME STAMPS00:00 Intro & personal/community updates16:10 Rubium skilling updates47:31 LMS & Sailing changes1:14:22 Q&A1:40:54 OutroEpisode notes:https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=97/rubium-mining--smithing-changes-?oldschool=1https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=97/changes-to-sailing--lms-rewards-eligibility?oldschool=1Support the podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/bunebapeWatch live on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/bunebapeWatch live on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BuneBape/streamsCheck out our side channel for variety games: https://www.youtube.com/@SmallBapeWatch Rob live on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/smallbapeJoin Our Community Discord at: https://discord.gg/bunebapeHelp buy cosplay supplies: https://throne.com/bunebapeDid you enjoy the content or have any questions? Let us know by commenting and check out more content you might enjoy at the links below.Podcast: open.spotify.com/show/4B3zj5EwqpatWmUre5wV6V?si=HfDE6IY5SqWLjlmdsJyXKQInstagram: instagram.com/bunebapeTwitter: twitter.com/bunebapeosrsTikTok: tiktok.com/@bunebapeosrsMerch: bunebape.comBusiness Inquiries:Bunebape@gmail.comTags:#osrs #oldschoolrunescape #osrspodcast #bunebape #runescapepodcast #podcast

Le feedback est probablement l'outil le plus utilisé… et le plus raté par les managers.

MSD's Ian Wagner speaks with Latin Metals CEO Keith Henderson at Deutsche Gold Messe in Frankfurt. Henderson outlines the company's prospect-generator model, which prioritizes asset-level dilution over shareholder dilution by bringing in partners to fund high-risk exploration. Latin Metals is focused on Argentina and Peru, with projects spanning copper, gold and broader base-metal opportunities. Henderson highlights the company's 500,000-hectare sediment-hosted copper play in Argentina and the Organullo porphyry project, where Moxico is funding major drilling and studies. Latin Metals trades as LMS on the TSX-V and LMSQF on the OTCQB.

Quand une entreprise est traversée par une crise majeure, comment reconstruit-on le management et la confiance des équipes ? Comment redonner aux managers le plaisir de leur rôle quand personne ne leur a jamais donné les outils pour l'exercer vraiment ?Dans cet épisode, Delphine Zanelli reçoit Fanny Barbier, DRH du groupe Emeis, anciennement Orpea.Fanny Barbier arrive en août 2022 dans une organisation en état de choc. Double traumatisme : les séquelles du Covid, puis la la publication du livre Les Fossoyeurs qui a exposé les pratiques internes du groupe au grand public. Les managers ne savent pas s'ils vont rester. Les soignants s'interrogent sur le sens de leur engagement. Certains salariés viennent prendre soin de patients en EHPAD et dorment le soir dans leur voiture. Dans ce contexte, la mission de Fanny Barbier est à la fois immédiate et de long terme : reconstruire la confiance dans une organisation de plus de 1 000 établissements, tout en continuant à faire fonctionner les établissements au quotidien.La reconstruction passe d'abord par des preuves concrètes. Revalorisation salariale après 15 ans sans négociation salariale, webcasts transparents avec l'ensemble des collaborateurs, séparations rapides des profils non alignés avec les nouvelles valeurs. Le principe directeur est simple et constant : on dit ce qu'on fait, on fait ce qu'on dit. Fanny Barbier décrit aussi la création d'une école de management co-construite avec les managers eux-mêmes. L'appel à candidatures est posté à 9h. À midi, 300 volontaires ont répondu. Ce chiffre dit quelque chose de précis : les managers ne refusent pas d'apprendre. Ils refusent d'être ignorés.L'épisode aborde aussi le programme Amy, construit autour de quatre piliers concrets : logement d'urgence, soutien aux proches, accès à la santé, aide face aux difficultés financières. Ce programme part d'un constat que Fanny Barbier formule sans détour : des soignants qui arrivent chaque matin pour prendre soin de résidents, alors qu'eux-mêmes ne savent pas où ils vont dormir le soir. Une politique RH centrée sur l'individu, pas sur la catégorie.Fanny Barbier apporte sur ces sujets une précieuse perspective : celle d'une DRH entrée dans l'entreprise en pleine crise ouverte, sans illusion sur la durée du chemin, et convaincue que la considération est une conviction de direction avant d'être un dispositif RH. Son parcours dans les relations sociales lui a appris que la confiance ne se déclare pas. Elle se construit par des actes visibles, répétés, cohérents.Une masterclass. Cet épisode donne des éléments concrets pour reconstruire l'engagement d'une équipe après une rupture de confiance, concevoir une formation managériale à partir du vécu réel des managers, et bâtir une politique RH qui prend en compte l'individu dans toutes ses dimensions.CHAPITRAGE :(03:11) Arriver dans la tempête: les premières décisions (08:13) Reconstruire la confiance: les gages concrets (11:22) La considération comme conviction fondatrice (19:56) L'école de management: construire avec les managers (27:28) Quand les valeurs ne sont plus négociables (33:40) Le programme Amy: prendre soin de ceux qui prennent soin (40:13) Quel leader Fanny Barbier veut être dans 10 ans

This week on the podcast, we welcome Heather Stefanski, Chief Learning and Development Officer at McKinsey & Company. We explore how organizations like McKinsey are reimagining employee development for the age of AI, shifting learning into the flow of work, focusing on systems and purposeful apprenticeships, and embedding L&D directly into workflow design. You'll also hear all about the evolving skill sets for L&D teams and the importance of updating how we measure development. You will want to hear this episode if you are interested in...00:00 Integrating development into AI assistants04:49 Heather's role at McKinsey08:32 Developing skills in the workplace16:08 Designing developmental workflows with AI24:56 Understanding skill proficiency levels26:25 Building agentic development solutions30:53 Assessing AI proficiency levels33:18 Future skills focus at McKinsey42:55 AI in performance evaluations53:13 Using AI for feedback and reviewRethinking Language: Why Development Surpasses TrainingOne of the first shifts Heather Stefanski identifies is a deliberate move away from talking about “training” or even just “learning.” Instead, McKinsey centers its L&D strategy on development, a more holistic approach that encompasses formal programs, feedback mechanisms, leadership modeling, and real-time experiences in the flow of work.For McKinsey, development is inseparable from business outcomes, and employee development is critical to the firm's value proposition. This means McKinsey designs work intentionally to be developmental, combining upskilling, leadership building, and project experiences into a seamless ecosystem.Purposeful ApprenticeshipHeather discusses embedding rituals, such as performance check-ins and feedback sessions, directly into core workflows to build a system grounded in purposeful practices. By standardizing these rituals, McKinsey can even quantify the impact of great teachers on advancement, and L&D becomes part of organizational culture rather than a siloed function.The New Learning Tech StackOne of the most exciting transformations is McKinsey's ongoing work to blend learning seamlessly into technology-enabled workflows. Rather than relying solely on traditional LMS platforms, McKinsey is embedding learning designers into business teams that are building agentic workflows—AI-powered systems that guide, prompt, and provide real-time feedback as employees work.AI agents are being designed to do more than just increase productivity. Heather emphasizes that agents should also foster professional development by challenging users, prompting reflective questions, and offering immediate coaching. This shift pushes L&D professionals to evolve their skills, requiring fluency not just in instructional design but in data analysis and collaborative workflow engineering.What Skills Do Employees Still Need?As AI tools automate routine tasks, think aligning PowerPoint columns or data cleanup, McKinsey is strategically deciding what to stop teaching, redirecting focus to what keeps the firm distinctive: problem solving, judgment, metacognition, systems thinking, and authentic leadership. Purposeful abandonment of now-obsolete skills is as vital as doubling down on those that matter, ensuring development keeps pace with the shifting demands of knowledge work. Resources & People MentionedLisa Christensen on LinkedIn mckinsey.comCursorCLO Lift Group Connect with Heather StefanskiHeather Stefanski at McKinsey & Company Heather Stefanski on LinkedIn Connect With RedThread ResearchWebsite: RedThread ResearchOn LinkedInSubscribe to WORKPLACE STORIES

NCM Event Conversations feat. Eric Glass from CallRevuIn this special Series NCM Event Conversations we grabbed a few of our favorite guest to talk about their experiences and whats happening in our Industry. In this interview Lou Ramirez and Fred Lennartz speak with Eric Glass from CallRevu to discuss why the event's intimate, education-focused setting helps dealers share best practices. Glass explains CallRevu's evolution from Test Track, an AI simulation role-play tool, into the Test Track Learning Lab with full LMS capabilities for courses, learning paths, and certifications, and how Call Coach listens to live calls to recommend training and simulations in real time. NCM Fixed Ops Summit, an experience built for leaders ready to elevate performance, profitability, and the customer journey through modern systems and by utilizing AI-driven innovation. 

The FBI warns attackers are abusing Microsoft OAuth authentication. India pushes faster patching as AI speeds up cyberattacks. Iranian hackers blend phishing with SEO poisoning. Anthropic's AI finds thousands of open source flaws, while AI also reshapes bug bounties and fuels supply-chain attacks hitting thousands of GitHub repos. Plus, a new LMS zero-day, bulletproof hosting arrests in the Netherlands, FTC action over bogus “active listening” claims, and another busy week for cyber funding and M&A. Our guest is Kurtis Minder, author, joining us to discuss his book "Cyber Recon: My Life in Cyber Espionage and Ransomware Negotiation.” Please disregard all searches for disregard. Remember to leave us a 5-star rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Miss an episode? Sign-up for our daily intelligence roundup, Daily Briefing, and you'll never miss a beat. And be sure to follow CyberWire Daily on LinkedIn. CyberWire Guest Today we are joined by Kurtis Minder, author, joining us to discuss his book "Cyber Recon: My Life in Cyber Espionage and Ransomware Negotiation." Selected Reading FBI warns of Kali365 phishing service targeting Microsoft 365 accounts (Bleeping Computer) India's CERT-In Sets 12-Hour Patch Deadline for Exposed Flaws (Infosecurity Magazine) Iran-Linked Hackers Target US Aviation with Phishing and SEO Poisoning Campaign (Infosecurity Magazine) Anthropic: Mythos Detected 23,000 Potential Vulnerabilities Across 1,000 OSS Projects (SecurityWeek)  HackerOne takes an axe to its bug bounty rewards (The Register) Automated 'Megalodon' Campaign Spreads GitHub Repo Backdoors (GovInfo Security) Hackers Exploited KnowledgeDeliver Zero-Day for Web Shell Deployment (SecurityWeek) Admins of Bulletproof Hosting Service Used by Russian Hackers Arrested in Netherlands (SecurityWeek) FTC to Require Cox Media Group, Two Other Firms to Pay Nearly $1 Million to Settle Charges They Deceived Customers About “Active Listening” AI-Powered Marketing Service (Federal Trade Commission) Socket raises $60 million in Series C funding. (N2K Pro Business Briefing) You can no longer Google the word 'disregard' (TechCrunch) Share your feedback. What do you think about CyberWire Daily? Please take a few minutes to share your thoughts with us by completing our brief listener survey. Thank you for helping us continue to improve our show. Want to hear your company in the show? N2K CyberWire helps you reach the industry's most influential leaders and operators, while building visibility, authority, and connectivity across the cybersecurity community. Learn more at sponsor.thecyberwire.com. The CyberWire is a production of N2K Networks, your source for strategic workforce intelligence. © N2K Networks, Inc. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

L'IA va-t-elle remplacer les développeurs ?

What happens when the law meets a general-purpose cultural machine? In this episode, hosts Matteo Iuorio and Sofia Debernardi sit down with intellectual property expert Professor Giancarlo Frosio to unpack the massive legal battleground surrounding generative AI. We start with the immediate legal technicalities—separating the liability of tech companies training models from the liability of users prompting them—before sliding into the gripping, high-stakes philosophical landscape of what happens to human labor, law, and purpose as we race toward Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) and superintelligence. Key Takeaways The Two Legal Battlegrounds:Copyright issues with AI are split into two distinct phases: theTraining Stage(ingesting data to extract patterns) and theOutput Stage(whether an AI-generated result is "substantially similar" to a protected work).Strict Liability & The Neutral Tool Dilemma:Copyright is a strict liability offense. Professor Frosio shares his perspective that AI labs are placing "neutral, general-purpose tools" on the market. Therefore, legal liability for an infringing output should ideally sit with the user prompting it—provided the developer implemented standard safeguards.The Geopolitical AI Arms Race:Stricter text and data-mining copyright regulations in regions like Europe can function as a bottleneck for local tech development, inadvertently pushing the dominance of the AI "arms race" exclusively toward the US and China.The Looming Threat to Purpose:As the operational capabilities of AI shift from narrow tasks to holistic human replication (AGI) and beyond (superintelligence), society faces a massive conundrum: if artificial entities can outperform human intellectual labor completely, what is left for humanity's sense of purpose? Terminology Glossary LLM (Large Language Model): Note: Mentioned contextually as "LMS" during the interview recording. These are AI programs trained on vast amounts of text data to understand, summarize, generate, and predict new content. Substantial Similarity: A fundamental legal doctrine used by courts to determine if an unauthorized reproduction has taken too much protectable expression from an original copyrighted work. AGI vs. Superintelligence: Narrow AI handles specific single tasks. Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) can holistically apply knowledge to any task like a human. Superintelligence refers to a theoretical future entity whose collective intellect far surpasses the capacity of the human brain. References & Links to Explore Learn more about Professor Frosio's work and research at theGlobal Intellectual Property and Technology Centre (GIP Tech).Check out the landmark pending litigation referenced in the episode:Getty Images v. Stability AIin the UK.Learn about the European Union's framework discussed by reading the official documentation on theEU Artificial Intelligence Act (AI Act).To explore the philosophical warnings mentioned by the "Godfather of AI" Geoffrey Hinton on AGI and systemic alignment risks, check out hisNobel Prize lecturesand recent AI safety advocacy.Read up on the historic sci-fi themes referenced at the end of the episode via Isaac Asimov's classicFoundation Series.

Hello voices from the bench community, John Wilson here and I wanted to share some news about the evolution of the Programill lineup. Most importantly, Ivoclar's new PrograMill 7. What stands out right away is the reduced air consumption this mill requires, but what you'll notice first is that impressive new touchscreen. For us, the biggest advantage has been increased spindle power. My laboratory's known for these larger cases with complex geometries, and I can tell you that extra power really makes a difference. Next time you see your Ivoclar representative, be sure to ask about the PrograMill 7 and tell them John Wilson sent you. Thank you. At exocad Insights in beautiful Mallorca, we finally caught up with Felix from Imagine USA—and the timing couldn't have been better. As an exocad dealer on the front lines of digital dentistry, Felix shared his excitement about the strong turnout, the familiar faces, and most importantly, the innovation coming from exocad. What stood out most? The new exocad Hub and its cloud-based capabilities, along with powerful AI-driven tools inside DentalDB designed for efficient batch processing. For Felix and the Imagine team, it's not just about seeing what's new—it's about putting it to the test. By running new features through their own production facility first, they ensure real-world performance before bringing solutions to their customers. Beyond the technology, Felix emphasized the value of being there in person—connecting face-to-face with partners, having meaningful conversations, and stepping back to see where the industry is headed. And of course, doing it all in Mallorca doesn't hurt either. This week at the Dental Laboratory Association of Texas Meeting 2026, the microphones stayed hot as three completely different conversations all circled around the same thing: how fast the dental lab industry is evolving. First up, the crew sat down with Tony Aliatim from Axis Dental Milling to talk about going from biomedical engineering and printing silicone heart models for surgeons… to becoming one of the go-to names in dental milling. From industrial machining roots in Michigan to AI-powered calibration systems and Straumann plug-and-play workflows, Tony breaks down how VersaMill machines are helping labs mill everything from zirconia to implant abutments faster, smarter, and safer. Along the way, the conversation dives into HyperDent, trade show madness, wet vs dry milling nightmares, and why dental technicians may not realize how close this industry really is to aerospace-level manufacturing. Then things shifted from mills to maintenance with Rebekah Serrago and Chris Wilson from Garland Dental Services. What started decades ago as a garage-based repair business fixing handpieces has grown into one of the industry's best-kept secrets for equipment sales, service, and support. Rebekah shares the story of growing up folding flyers for her father's repair company before eventually becoming CEO and expanding Garland into a massive online sales and service operation supporting everything from ovens to mills. Chris joins in to talk preventative maintenance, service certifications, keeping ancient ovens alive, and why labs desperately need dealers that actually understand the equipment they sell. It's equal parts family-business story, repair shop wisdom, and hilarious behind-the-scenes dental lab banter. Finally, the future officially arrived when the podcast crew sat down with Antoine Coppens from Relu and orthodontic lab owner Christian Saurman of New England Orthodontic Laboratory. What started as four engineering students experimenting with AI in Belgium somehow turned into fully automated dental workflows capable of designing surgical guides, night guards, models, and restorations in minutes. The conversation explores how AI is reshaping lab workflows, reducing manual design time, integrating directly into LMS systems, and even learning individual lab preferences. Christian explains how his custom-built orthodontic lab management system helped eliminate workflow chaos and automate huge portions of production, while Antoine gives a fascinating look into where dental AI is headed next. Between AI-generated appliances, automated scan checks, and self-learning workflows, this episode feels less like science fiction and more like a preview of what labs will look like over the next five years.Special Guests: Antoine Coppens, Chris Wilson, Christian Saurman, Rebekah Serrago, and Tony Aliatim.

Scott Kramer of Infios talks about intelligent supply chain execution; why visibility & optimization are key building blocks; & leveraging AI the right way.  IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:   [02.25] An introduction to Scott, his role at Infios, and his background. [03.20] An overview of Infios, who they are, and what they do. [03.50] The ethos that has informed Infios's journey with AI and new technology. "From the beginning, our solution has been based around adaptability and openness. And now, with the advent of not just AI but AMRs, that openness has allowed us to navigate these waters more easily. We're flexible in how we can operate in this environment." [05.51] Why visibility and optimization are the building blocks for AI-enhanced execution. "Visibility and optimization are still important… But when we add the agents, they can understand what's going on, prescribe solutions, and take away a lot of the heavy lifting of research and analysis." [06.41] What Infios's recent supply chain execution readiness report reveals about how leaders are thinking about execution and optimization, particularly around manual workflows. "Some workflows have been optimized, but only within their silo. They may have optimized a workflow for transportation or warehouse – but how do you connect them?" [09.14] The biggest issue in the market right now with AI understanding and adoption. "People are asking us: "What are you doing right now with AI?" And that's the wrong question." [11.15] Where Scott sees companies on the reactive vs proactive scale right now, why mindset is still a limiting factor, and how visibility is changing. "People are still thinking in the ways they've traditionally solved problems. They're thinking about automating a single task; they're not thinking about connecting the dots together." [13.25] How leaders are thinking about the future of technology. "The art of what's possible has changed." [15.03] Why many AI pilots still aren't getting off the ground, and how we can actually create value from AI investments. "I've seen all too often: 'I have a great technology, now let me go and search for a problem.' We really need to start with the problem, then define the technology. AI is an amazing tool, when leveraged correctly." [18.13] What intelligent, connected execution should actually look like. [20.54] Training AI slowly, how bias is holding us back, and discovering what's really possible with AI. [22.53] The benefits to teams and businesses when they achieve intelligent, connected execution. [24.18] The small steps teams can take now to position for success. "Don't think of it as an LMS problem, WMS problem or TMS problem. Ultimately, it's a customer problem." RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED:   Head over to Infios' website now to find out more and discover how they could help you too. You can also connect with Infios and keep up to date with the latest over on LinkedIn or YouTube, or you can connect with Scott on LinkedIn. If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more from Infios, check out 520: Enter the New Era of Supply Chain Management, with Infios or 532: Turning Purposeful AI into Business Outcomes, with Infios. Check out our other podcasts HERE.

In this LMScast episode, Chris Badgett discusses how clever popups may be effective tools for increasing course sales. Also, learner success on an LMS website. Chris illustrates why popups should assist, support, and customize the student experience rather than just interrupting users for marketing goals by using Popup Maker in conjunction with LifterLMS. He investigates […] The post How To Increase Course Sales and Learner Results With Smart Popups appeared first on LMScast.

What happens when a fintech leader decides that serving the association community means doing far more than processing payments? And in an environment where associations are under pressure to deliver more value with limited resources, how can they create learning and connections that truly help members thrive?In this episode of Associations Thrive, host Joanna Pineda interviews Wade Tetsuka, President of U.S. Transactions Corporation (UST) and UST Education. Wade discusses:How UST helps associations accept credit card and ACH payments through AMS, LMS, and event platforms, while also helping reduce fees and improve service.Why payment processing becomes an especially important decision point when associations are changing AMS platforms.How UST Education began as simple peer-to-peer lunch roundtables for association IT directors and grew into a major educational platform.How the pandemic accelerated UST Education's virtual programming and enabled it to serve association professionals across the country.Why Wade believes companies should connect with the communities they serve in a more meaningful way, and how education became that “sweet spot” for him.Why education is the common thread across Wade's work, board service, and leadership philosophy, and why he sees it as “the great equalizer in society.”What the AANHPI association community means to Wade, and why representation and visibility matter for future Asian American leaders.References:UST Website

Le métier de manager attire de moins en moins. Et pourtant, ceux qui l'exercent veulent continuer à le faire. Dans cet épisode, Delphine Zanelli reçoit Samuel Durand, explorateur et réalisateur de documentaires sur les transformations du travail, auteur du sixième film Management, Work It Out.Son documentaire part d'une question posée en anglais : Why do good people become bad bosses ? Pourquoi des gens bien deviennent-ils de mauvais managers ? La réponse de Samuel Durand n'est pas dans les individus. Elle est dans le système. Un système de promotion qui place des personnes à des postes pour lesquels elles n'ont pas été préparées, c'est la loi de Peter. Un rôle non clarifié. Des outils absents. Et une envie d'être manager qu'on ne travaille jamais vraiment. C'est ainsi que le métier de manager se retrouve exercé sans préparation réelle.Samuel Durand identifie trois repères concrets issus du documentaire. Se connaître soi-même d'abord : la relation managériale est une relation humaine, et la connaissance de soi conditionne la qualité des interactions. Passer du temps sur le terrain ensuite : c'est ce que disent tous les collaborateurs interviewés dans le film. La confiance, la considération et la compréhension du travail réel se construisent là, pas en réunion. Redéfinir le droit à l'erreur enfin : Blaise Agresti, ancien dirigeant du PGHM, en donne une définition précise. Ce n'est pas laisser faire sans cadre. C'est confier une tâche un cran au-dessus des compétences actuelles pour permettre de progresser.L'épisode revient sur le moment d'émotion du documentaire avec Jean-Michel Frixon, ouvrier chez Michelin pendant 43 ans, dont le témoignage est aujourd'hui utilisé dans toutes les usines du groupe pour sensibiliser les managers à l'impact de leur comportement. Et sur la phrase affichée dans les bureaux de Michelin : "Le chef s'occupe de nous, nous on s'occupe du reste." Chez Michelin, ce système fonctionne à un point où les usines tournent seules, la nuit et le week-end, sans manager sur place.Samuel Durand évoque également son prochain projet, déjà en préparation. Il répond aussi aux trois questions signature du podcast.Cet épisode donne des éléments concrets pour comprendre pourquoi des managers compétents peinent dans leur rôle, pourquoi la formation seule ne suffit pas, et comment construire les conditions qui donnent envie d'exercer le métier de manager dans la durée.CHAPITRAGE(00:00) Introduction (01:07) Samuel Durand, explorateur des transformations du travail (03:43) "Why good people become bad bosses ?" la question du documentaire (04:06) La loi de Peter : quand le système crée le problème (06:35) Former les managers ou déclencher leur envie ? (08:38) Le rapport Gallup et le désengagement des managers (13:50) Jean-Michel, 43 ans chez Michelin — un témoignage fondateur (17:45) Les 3 repères concrets pour mieux manager (19:53) L'intention avant les outils (22:27) L'entreprise sans manager : le cas Indaero (25:05) "Le chef s'occupe de nous, nous on s'occupe du reste" (27:31) L'impact concret que ce documentaire peut avoir (33:17) Prochain documentaire : la reconnaissance et l'argent (38:35) Questions signature

Recorded May 8, 2026 This week on Off the Rails, the gang celebrates finals week the only way higher ed AV/IT knows how: by watching a major cloud platform wobble and quietly whispering sweet nothings to the on-prem rack. The Instructure Canvas mess kicks off a discussion about cloud dependency, LMS integrations, sketchy APIs, cyber insurance, and the comforting lie that "hosted" means "not our problem." Then it's on to upcoming NWMET and InfoComm sessions about building local AI tools for AV design, documentation, math, and workflows… because sometimes the best cloud strategy is "don't." The main topic tackles higher ed media production studios, virtual production spaces, visualization labs, esports rooms, and all the other shiny innovation boxes campuses love to build before remembering someone has to staff, fund, maintain, and explain them. The crew digs into automation, realistic expectations, revenue potential, student involvement, and why your $3,000 LED volume is adorable. Finally, a listener's question about HyFlex classroom audio leads to ceiling mics, Catchbox, lectern mics, Dante, and the timeless truth that microphones are happiest when they're disappointing someone.   News story: https://www.kcur.org/education/2026-05-07/hackers-hit-university-of-missouri-system-and-9-000-other-canvas-schools   AVSF Presentations: NWMET Conference: https://www.nwmet.org "Weaponizing AI for AV and IT Design" Weds May 20, 100p InfoComm: https://www.infocommshow.org "From Prompt to Project: Applying AI to Higher Ed AV Design" Thurs June 17, 1000a   RDL Dante Headphone Amplifier: https://rdlnet.com/product/av-nh1/   Alternate show titles: It's just text / and 9,000 other schools!  Find me every vulnerability This is real; it could happen It's a really cool concept There's so much leakage that can happen What is happening in North Carolina? There's a few variants of this strain that goes around We call that Bro-Jo We gotta fill this hole The secret word is… Public-Private Partnerships The bottom people get it shoved in their face We're not building these spaces for good enough Magic with a Pac-Man button Braggart…    We stream live every Friday at about 315p Eastern/1215p Pacific and you can listen to everything we record over at AVSuperFriends.com    ▀▄▀▄▀ CONTACT LINKS ▀▄▀▄▀ ► Website: https://www.avsuperfriends.com ► Twitter: https://twitter.com/avsuperfriends ► LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/avsuperfriends ► YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@avsuperfriends ► Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/avsuperfriends.bsky.social ► Email: mailbag@avsuperfriends.com ► RSS: https://avsuperfriends.libsyn.com/rss   Donate to AVSF: https://www.avsuperfriends.com/support

In this episode of The Learning & Development Podcast, David James is joined by Becky Willis to break down the essential components of her new book, 7 Steps to Better Learning Engagement: A Blueprint for Creating Impactful L&D. Together, they explore what it truly takes for an organization to shift its attention toward L&D and, more importantly, how to convert that attention into tangible business impact. Becky reflects on the transition from traditional L&D hurdles to a streamlined, step-by-step guide for modern professionals. The conversation covers the entire lifecycle of a successful initiative—from securing executive buy-in and refining strategy to optimizing learning technology. They also delve into the "marketing" side of the industry, discussing how to leverage internal champions and communication tactics to ensure L&D moves from the periphery to the heart of organizational performance. Take your L&D to the next level   Take advantage of thousands of hours of analysis. Hundreds of conversations with industry innovators and 25+ years of hands-on global L&D leadership.   It's all distilled into one framework to help you level up L&D. Access the L&D Maturity Model here - https://360learning.com/maturity-model   KEY TAKEAWAYS ●      Reposition L&D as a business function, not a course factory - move from “we create training” to “we solve business problems,” and prove it using time to proficiency, product quality, and profit KPIs.  ●      Start with one senior sponsor, co‑solve a pressing business issue, prove impact with data and stories, then scale support via a Learning Advisory Board or similar council.   ●      Modern, collaborative, AI‑enabled platforms with strong UX can transform engagement and visibility. But don´t bolt AI onto legacy LMSs and risk turning L&D into a “dinosaur on wheels.”  ●      Market L&D internally like a product - use champions and visible executives and continually showcase success stories. ●      Go way beyond courses, design for moments of need. Build experience sharing, in‑the‑flow support and AI‑enabled coaching - employees need to get exactly what they need, when they need it. BEST MOMENTS “If you have bolted on AI that's just added into there, onto your dinosaur, LMS, then what you have is a dinosaur on wheels.” “I think the mindset of going from I create courses to I solve business problems is a big step.” “The sweet spot of learning and development is to be there at the moment of need - to influence the moment of apply.” Becky Willis Bio Becky Willis is a founder and the chief learning officer at Tractus Learning. She helps guide Tractus customers to implement successful digital learning. She is also the founder of WillLearn Consulting, where she helps companies plan, design, and develop high-performance digital learning ecosystems. Previously, she was the vice president of engagement at EdCast and led learning innovation at Hewlett Packard. You can follow and contact Becky via: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beckywillis/ Website: https://tractuslearning.com/ VALUABLE RESOURCES The Learning And Development Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-learning-development-podcast/id1466927523 L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home ABOUT THE HOST David James  David has been a People Development professional for more than 20 years, most notably as Director of Talent, Learning & OD for The Walt Disney Company across Europe, the Middle East & Africa.  As well as being the Chief Learning Officer at 360Learning, David is a prominent writer and speaker on topics around modern and digital L&D.  CONTACT METHOD  ●      Twitter:  https://twitter.com/davidinlearning ●      LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjameslinkedin ●      L&D Collective: https://360learning.com/the-l-and-d-collective ●      Blog: https://360learning.com/blog ●      L&D Master Class Series: https://360learning.com/blog/l-and-d-masterclass-home This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

Peter and Eden kick off a chaotic week — Eden's dealing with the Shiny Hunters ransomware attack on Canvas (the university LMS that runs basically everything, currently being held hostage for the second time) while Peter is just weary from step counts. The bulk of the episode is a genre-spanning music deep dive: Eden assigns four critic-darling albums neither of them would normally reach for (Robyn, Ella Langley, Wendy Eisenberg, and Mandy Indiana), Peter assigns one desert-island pick Eden hasn't heard yet. Between the new releases, a Diablo 4 expansion, Cobalt lore, and the Dungeon Crawler Carl comic selling out on Free Comic Book Day, it's a very full episode.SHOW NOTESCanvas Ransomware Crisis — Eden, who works in university IT, breaks down the Shiny Hunters attack on Canvas, the dominant learning management system used by ~54% of schools. The attackers took the platform down twice, demanded ransom, and threatened to release data from 9,000+ schools by May 12th. Eden spent Free Comic Book Day week in Zoom calls, prepping faculty for a likely third outage.New Metal Releases — Peter covers recent drops: new Sevendust (pretty okay, Lajon Witherspoon sounds great), Draconian's Insomnolent Ruin (gothic death-doom, better than their 2020 album), and a Testament remaster of Practice What You Preach — which apparently had notoriously bad 80s mastering on every prior version.What Else Peter's Been Into — Currently watching The Good Place (season two, laughing out loud), reading the new MurderBot novella System Collapse (more existential ennui, building toward a Preservation vs. Barishastranza showdown), and very much hooked on Vampire Crawlers, a $10 roguelike deck-builder with a dungeon crawl structure that he calls at least as good as Slay the Spire.Free Comic Book Day at Eden's Shop — The comic shop where Eden works had its best day ever — beating last year's record by ~$3K. The Dungeon Crawler Carl issue zero sold out by 11:15 AM and was flipping on eBay for $30+. Eden's boss is now planning to order ten copies of the forthcoming OGN.Eden's Media Check-In — Went back to Wuthering Waves (best combat of any free-to-play open world; Cyberpunk Edgerunners crossover incoming), read They Were Eleven by Moto Hagio (70s shoujo sci-fi, recently translated, thoroughly recommended), and briefly installed/uninstalled Neverness to Everness after the devs were caught using AI-generated assets and their "replacement" assets were also AI-generated.The Music Listening Project — Robyn, Sexistential — Eden's clear favorite of the four assigned albums. Robyn's first album in eight years sounds like Body Talk Part 4, which is exactly what she apparently aimed for. Both hosts agree it goes down smooth and does exactly what dance-pop is supposed to do. Peter's pick of the bunch.Ella Langley, Dandelion — Peter's least favorite ("I fucking hated every note on this shitty ass shit album"), not softened much by the 19-song runtime. Eden also wanted to like it more than they did. Peter's wife, who has a master's in vocal performance, concurred on the voice. Both prefer Kacey Musgraves's Middle of Nowhere, which dropped right after Eden finalized the listening list.Wendy Eisenberg, self-titled — A folk/chamber-folk record Eden found genuinely enjoyable, especially in quieter guitar-forward moments. Peter couldn't get past what he describes as chronically unsupported vocals (no diaphragm engagement). Mid-episode, Eden Googles and discovers Wendy uses they/them pronouns — quick correction mid-stream.Mandy Indiana, URGH — Noise rock with French lyrics; alienating by design, and for once that assessment is meant charitably. Peter could see putting it on if he just wants sound, not music. Eden started strong but felt bludgeoned by the end. Album art apparently smears skulls and faces across the screen in real time — which tracks.Cobalt, Slow Forever (2016) — Peter's desert island pick, his most-listened album of the last two years. Eden had never heard it and came away genuinely impressed. Peter gives a brief history: Cobalt's Gin (2009) as foundational American black metal, the band's turmoil around the previous vocalist's behavior, Charlie Fell (of Lord Mantis) stepping in, Eric Wunder doing all instruments himself, and the resulting pivot from black metal to progressive sludge with blackened overtones. Peter closes with a passage from "King Rust." Eric Wunder passed away earlier this year — Slow Forever as a final statement.

Boutique fitness is going global, but it's not just a growth play. International expansion is a full-scale operational, cultural and strategic transformation with real opportunities and risks. Get the inside track from someone who's actually built it at scale in Episode 729: Live from The HFA Show 2026: Lise Kuecker and Ashley Vasquez, VP of International at [solidcore]. 80/20 rule: maintain brand standards while allowing localized adaptation Tech reality check: your CRM, app and LMS may not adapt internationally Cultural nuance: what works in one market can completely flop in another Partnership stakes: the right local partner can make—or break—your success  Speed vs. control: franchising scales fast, but consistency must be protected Most brands underestimate the complexity of expanding internationally. You need determination, flexibility and mastery of endless details. Episode 729 is your reality check. Catch you there. With grit and gratitude, Lisé   LINKS: https://studiogrow.co/ https://www.instagram.com/studiogrowco https://www.linkedin.com/company/studio-growco/ https://open.spotify.com/show/04zR1tRiRhQUdIfvLbh60N https://www.youtube.com/@studiogrowco/videos

On this episode of The Association Podcast, we welcome Lacey Pope, MBA, CAE, Customer Success Manager at Web Scribble, to discuss her career journey in associations and her transition to the industry partner side. Lacey shares how she entered the association world through temp work, earned her CAE, and later drove process improvements at the Oncology Nursing Society that increased live support and boosted customer satisfaction by nearly 10%. She reflects on leading membership technology modernization at Shriners International—including AI translation tools, a new LMS, project management platform, and Power BI reporting—work that earned her recognition at the AWTC Awards. The conversation also explores hiring in the age of AI, daily AI use in customer success, and how associations can build stronger workforce development pipelines beyond a basic job board. 00:00 Welcome and Introductions 00:36 Rapid Fire Questions 02:17 Lacey Association Journey 03:26 Process Improvement Wins 04:55 Career Pivot and Web Scribble 07:22 Awards and Title Tradeoffs 09:32 Vendor Side and Member Value 12:05 Meet Mabel Topic Wheel 13:23 Hiring in the Age of AI 17:44 Daily AI and Policies 20:01 Using AI On The Side 20:51 Five-Year Career Pivot 22:17 Recruited To WebScribble 23:00 Industry Credibility Matters 24:58 Networking And Job Boards 27:02 Daily Wins And Parenting 28:21 AWTC Recognition And Belonging 30:52 Recognition And Community Growth 33:24 Customer Success Trends 34:51 Advice For Student Pipelines 36:42 What WebScribble Does 38:32 Final Thanks And Wrap

Your organisation has probably spent years building a learning library. Courses, videos, SCORM files, PDFs — hundreds of them, living in the LMS or scattered across SharePoint. You can enrol in them. You can sit through them. What you can't do is ask them a question and get an answer in seconds, at the moment you actually need one. The knowledge is there. It just isn't retrievable. That's the problem Mike Alcock, founder of Talvi, has set out to solve. In this episode, Mike takes John through how Talvi works. They also cover Mike's own unlikely route into learntech: a Civil Engineering degree at Sheffield, a detour through an insulation factory in Newcastle, and three successive software businesses each arriving ahead of the market. And they have a searching conversation about what tools like Talvi mean for the LMS and for the instructional designer — neither of whom emerges entirely unscathed. Is the technology now genuinely good enough to make learning in the flow of work a practical reality, rather than a conference agenda perennial?.   TIMESTAMPS 00:00 - Start 02:14 - Intro 04:15 - What is Talvi for? 16:20 - What's the journey for a learning leader adopting Talvi? 20:47 - Mike's story: from civil engineering to learntech 30:19 - What will tools like Talvi do to the LMS? 39:50 - Explanation of terms: RAG, vector databases… 49:01 - End   CONNECT WITH LEARNING HACK LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/johnhelmer X: @johnhelmer Threads: @jphelmer Bluesky: @johnhelmer.bsky.social Website: learninghackpodcast.com

It's YOUR time to #EdUp with Erin Shy, CEO, WatermarkIn this episode, sponsored by the ​HigherEd PodCon​ II happening July 16 & 17, & the 2026 AcOps Conference July 29-31 by CoursedogYOUR host is Dr. Joe SallustioHow does a system of record for the provost finally exist when every other leader has their SIS, CRM, LMS & ERP but the provost has been eating last for decades?Why does the anecdote trap hurt higher ed when provosts can tell you about one great student but can't answer how many graduates from this program are now employed?What makes storytelling at scale impossible without clean, connected data when the honest answer to ROI of a political science degree right now may be we don't know?Listen in to #EdUpThank YOU so much for tuning in. Join us on the next episode for YOUR time to EdUp!Connect with YOUR EdUp Team - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Elvin Freytes⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ & ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Dr. Joe Sallustio⁠⁠⁠⁠● Join YOUR EdUp community at The EdUp ExperienceWe make education YOUR business!P.S. Want to access to EdUp Leadership, the only intelligence platform built exclusively from presidential conversations in higher ed?

Today, we check in a year after the first Unsupervised Learning x Latent Space Crossover special to discuss everything that has changed (there is a lot) in the world of AI. This episode was recorded just after AIE Europe, but before the Cursor-xAI deal.Unsupervised Learning is a podcast that interviews the sharpest minds in AI about what's real today, what will be real in the future and what it means for businesses and the world - helping builders, researchers and founders deconstruct and understand the biggest breakthroughs.Thanks to Jacob and the UL production team for hosting and editing this!Jacob Effron* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacobeffron/* X: https://x.com/jacobeffronFull Episode on Their YouTubeWe discuss:* swyx's view from the center of the AI engineering zeitgeist: OpenClaw, harness engineering, context engineering, evals, observability, GPUs, multimodality, and why conference tracks now reveal what matters most in AI* Whether AI infrastructure has finally stabilized: why “skills” may be the minimal viable packaging format for agents, why infra companies have had to reinvent themselves every year, and why application companies have had an easier time surviving model volatility* The vertical vs. horizontal AI startup debate: why application companies can act as the outsourced AI team for enterprises, why some horizontal companies still matter, and why sandboxes may be the clearest reinvention of classic cloud infrastructure for the AI era* The “agent lab” playbook: starting with frontier models, specializing for your domain, then training your own models once you have enough data, workload, and user behavior to justify the cost and latency savings* Why domain-specific model training is real, not just marketing: how companies like Cursor and Cognition can get users to choose their in-house models, and why search, domain specialization, and distillation are becoming more important* Open models, custom chips, and alternative inference infrastructure: why swyx has turned more bullish on open source, why non-NVIDIA hardware is suddenly getting real attention, and why every 10x speedup can unlock new product experiences* What it means to sell to agents instead of humans: why agent experience may mostly just be good developer experience by another name, why APIs and docs matter more than ever, and how pretraining-data incumbents are compounding advantages in an agent-first world* Why memory and personalization may become the next big wedge: today's models mostly reward frequency of mentions, but in the future, swyx expects product choice to be shaped much more by personalized memory systems* The state of the AI coding wars: why coding has become one of the largest and fastest-growing categories in AI, how Anthropic, OpenAI, Cursor, and Cognition have all ridden the wave, and why the category may still have more room to run* Capability exploration vs. efficiency: why the industry is still in a token-maxing, experiment-heavy phase where people are rewarded for spending more rather than less* Claude Code vs. Codex and the strange stickiness of coding products: why first magical product experiences may matter more than expected, and why the bigger mystery may be why only a few names have emerged as real winners so far* What the end state of the coding market might look like: two major players, a longer tail of niche products, and possible disruption if Microsoft, Mistral, xAI, or the Chinese labs push harder into coding* Where application companies still have room against the labs: why frontier labs are trying to expand into verticals like finance and healthcare, but still leave space for focused companies that own the workflow and the last mile* Why coding may be a preview of every other AI market: the first category to truly go parabolic, the clearest example of foundation model companies colliding with application companies, and a template for how future vertical AI markets may develop* Why AI valuations now feel unbounded: from billion-dollar ARR products built in a year to trillion-dollar market caps, swyx and Jacob unpack how the AI market has broken traditional startup intuitions about scale and durability* Consumer AI vs. coding AI: why ChatGPT's consumer category may have plateaued on frequency and product design, while coding continues to feel like a daily-use category with real momentum* The next product frontier beyond coding: consumer agents, computer use, and “coding agents breaking containment,” with swyx's thesis that 2025 was the year of coding agents and 2026 may be the year they begin to do everything else* Whether foundation models are really killing startup categories: why swyx is less worried for early founders, more worried for mid-size startups and traditional SaaS, and why building something ambitious may now be the best job interview for a frontier lab* AI vs. SaaS and the internal culture war around adoption: the tension between AI-native employees who want to rip out expensive software and skeptics who think quick AI-built replacements create fragile systems* Why traditional SaaS may be under real pressure: swyx's own experience spending six figures on event and sponsor management software, the temptation to rebuild it cheaply with AI, and the broader question of whether teams will trust custom AI-native replacements* Biosafety, security, and frontier model access: why swyx raised biosafety at a dinner with Anthropic's Mike Krieger, why Krieger argued security is the bigger issue, and what restricted model releases reveal about Anthropic vs. OpenAI* The era of giant models: why 10T+ parameter systems may only be a temporary rationing phase before bigger clusters arrive, why labs may increasingly keep their most powerful models private for distillation, and why scale alone no longer feels like a complete answer* Memory as the slowest scaling factor in AI: why context windows have improved far more slowly than people hoped, why million-token context still has not changed most real workflows, and why memory may be the key bottleneck for the next generation of systems* What swyx changed his mind on in the past year: becoming more bullish on open models, more convinced that the top tier of agent startups behaves very differently from the median AI company, and more optimistic about fine-tuning and specialized model adaptation* “Dark factories” and zero-human-review coding: the next frontier after zero human-written code, where models not only write the code but ship it without human review, forcing companies to rethink testing and verification from first principles* Why RL and post-training may matter more than people assumed: even if the resulting models get thrown out every few months, the data, workflows, and domain-specific improvements persist* Synthetic rubrics, Doctor GRPO, and multi-turn RL: why reinforcement learning is becoming much more domain-specific and multi-step than many people realize, opening the door to much deeper customization* The next frontier after coding: memory, personalization, and world models, including why swyx thinks world models matter not just for robotics or gaming, but for giving AI something closer to lived understanding* Fei-Fei Li, spatial intelligence, and the Good Will Hunting analogy: the idea that today's LLMs may know everything by reading it all, but still lack the lived experience that turns knowledge into a deeper kind of intelligenceTimestamps* 00:00:00 Intro preview: AI coding wars, startup pressure, and market structure* 00:00:28 Welcome to the Latent Space × Unsupervised Learning crossover* 00:01:17 What AI builders are focused on now: OpenClaw, harnesses, and infra* 00:04:33 Why AI infra is harder than apps, and where startups can still win* 00:06:39 Should companies train their own models?* 00:09:28 Open models, custom chips, and the new inference race* 00:11:25 Designing products for agents, not just humans* 00:16:49 The state of the AI coding wars in 2026* 00:19:27 Capability exploration, token-maxing, and why coding is going parabolic* 00:21:41 What the end state of the coding market could look like* 00:23:50 Where app companies still have room against the labs* 00:27:02 Why AI valuations and market swings feel unprecedented* 00:28:56 Consumer AI vs. coding AI, and why sticky products still matter* 00:32:28 What the next breakthrough product experience might be* 00:32:53 2026 thesis: coding agents break containment and eat the world* 00:35:27 Are foundation models wiping out startup categories?* 00:37:33 AI vs. SaaS, vibe coding, and internal team tensions* 00:40:01 Biosafety, security, and the politics of restricted model releases* 00:42:19 Giant models, compute constraints, and the limits of scale* 00:44:30 Memory as the real bottleneck in AI* 00:44:57 Why swyx changed his mind on open models* 00:47:44 Dark factories and the future of zero-human-review coding* 00:49:36 Why post-training and RL may matter more than people think* 00:51:50 Memory, world models, and the next frontier of intelligence* 00:53:54 The Good Will Hunting analogy for LLMs* 00:54:21 OutroTranscript[00:00:00] swyx: Isn't that crazy? That number is just mind boggling.[00:00:03] Jacob Effron: What is the state of the AI coding wars today?[00:00:05] swyx: We're in a phase of sort of like capability exploration. The general thesis that I have been pursuing now is that the same way that 2025 was a year coding agents 2026 is coding agents breaking containments to do everything else.[00:00:16] Jacob Effron: Do you worry about the foundation models just getting into a bunch of these startup categories?[00:00:21] swyx: Mid-size startups. Yes.[00:00:23] Jacob Effron: What do you think the end state of this market is[00:00:25] swyx: for the market structure to, to significantly change? There would be[00:00:28] Jacob Effron: today on unsupervised learning. We had a, a fun episode and what's really become an annual tradition, a crossover episode with our friends at Latent space.Swix and I sat down and we talked about everything happening in the AI ecosystem today. What we thought of the various changes at the model layer, what's happening in the infra world, the coding wars, and a bunch of other things. It's a ton of fun to do this with someone I really respect and another great podcaster in the game.Without further ado, here's our episode. Well switch. This is, uh, super fun to be back with another unsupervised learning, uh, latent space crossover episode.[00:01:02] swyx: Yeah,[00:01:02] Jacob Effron: I feel like a lot of places we could start, but you know, one thing I always find fascinating, uh, about the way you spend your time is you obviously are like at the epicenter of this engineering movement and community, and you run these events and conferences and put on these.Awesome talks and, and I think just have a great pulse on the zeitgeist of what's going on.[00:01:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:01:17] Jacob Effron: Maybe to, to start just what are the biggest topics people are thinking about right now?[00:01:21] swyx: Yeah, so I just came back from London, uh, where we did a IE Europe and we're doing roughly one per quarter now, which Yeah, you've[00:01:27] Jacob Effron: really up[00:01:27] swyx: the, hopefully[00:01:28] Jacob Effron: up the, up the pace.[00:01:29] swyx: It's trying. We're trying to match AI speed, youknow?[00:01:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah, exactly. The tops would be completely different, I imagine. Uh,[00:01:33] swyx: yeah. You know, I definitely curate the tracks, like you can see what I think. When you see the track list and the, the speakers that I invite, obviously Open Claw is like the story of the last four or five months, and then be, be just below that.I would consider harness engineering, context engineering to be two related topics in agents and rag. And then there's a long tail of Evergreen stuff like evals, observability, GPUs, uh, and uh, LM infra and just general, just in general. We also have other updates on like multimodality and, uh, generative media, let's call it.Um, but I definitely, the, the first three that I mentioned are top of mind people. Yeah.[00:02:13] Jacob Effron: I think harness is particular like, so interesting. Um, you know, there was this tweet from Harrison Chase, the, the lane chain, CEO, that, that caught my eye recently where he said, you know, it finally feels like we have stability, uh, around the infrastructure for, uh, you know, around ai.And I think what. He basically was implying his like, look over the past two, three years as a company at the epicenter of AI infrastructure, it was a bit like playing whack-a-mole, right? You were constantly moving around with, however, the building patterns were evolving[00:02:36] swyx: for Harrison for sure. Right? Like he's basically had to reinvent the company every year since he started Lang Chain.Right? It was Lang chain, Ang graph and LP agents and like, uh, I think he's like one of the most nimble, adept sharp people about this. Yeah. Yeah.[00:02:49] Jacob Effron: Saying now, now is finally the time stability[00:02:51] swyx: this. Yeah.[00:02:52] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Um, do you buy that or what have you kind of make of that take?[00:02:56] swyx: I think that. It, it's very expensive to say this Time is different sometimes, but when you're just writing code, like it's actually okay to just like try to make a call and I think it may not even matter if this call is right or not.Like I just don't even care that much because you can be right on a thesis, but if you don't, you don't figure out how to monetize the thesis, then who cares if you said something first that said, um, it does feel like, for example. Uh, we went through a lot of different ways of passion packaging integrations up with, uh, with agents.And it feels like we've landed at skills, which is like the minimal viable format. Yeah. Which is just a markdown file, uh, with some scripts attached to it, and I don't see how it can be more simple than that. And so there is some justification for. The stability around harnesses. I feel like there may be more adaptation with regards to maybe like the real time elements or subagents or memory or any of those like agent disciplines, let's call it in, in agent engineering.Uh, but if, if the thesis is that, okay, you just want agents are LMS with tools in the loop with a file system, what they can do. Retrieval with, with skills and all these like standard tooling that now seems to be relatively consensus then probably. That makes sense. Um, I just think like there's no point trying to stake your reputation on this thesis that we're there because if it changes again, just change with it.It's fine.[00:04:33] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It's always, you know, I've always been struck by how that is. Much more challenging for infrastructure companies and application companies. Like obviously I think, yeah. You know, on the application side you've seen, you know, Brett Taylor from Sierra Max, from Lara. Like, they're like, look, we build, you know, what's ahead of the models and we're willing to throw everything out every three months, you know, as the models get better and better.Exactly. Yeah. But the thing you at least have there is you have. Uh, you have an end customer, right? That's like decently sticky. Um, you know, they will mostly stick, you know, they'll, they'll give you a shot at least of, of building these things. What I've always found more challenging, uh, at, at the kind of like, you know, reinvent yourself every three months of the infrastructure layer, it's like, you know, developers are definitely a, a pickier audience maybe than an accounting firm or, uh, you know, a bank.Yeah. And so it's definitely a, a, a more challenging position to be in to, to have to constantly reinvent yourself.[00:05:17] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and like when they turn, it's like. Very complete. Like, they'll leave to like the, the hot new thing, uh, because there's like no defensibility, I guess. Like e even, even if you are a database, like, uh, people can migrate workloads off databases.Like it's, it's a, it's a known thing. Uh, so I think like basically what we're talking about is the vertical versus horizontal, uh, debate in, in AI startups. And uh, the way I think about it also is just that like when you are. Um, Lara, when you are a bridge, like you are the outsource AI team, right? You, you are, your job is to apply whatever state ofthe art AI methods.[00:05:55] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Like this translation layer between model capabilities and your[00:05:57] swyx: own customers. Yeah. To, to the end customers and like, well, if they didn't have you, they would've to hire in house and they're not gonna hire in house so they have you. And like, I think that's like a reasonable, like very robust to any whatever trends and, and discoveries that people make in, in the engineering layer.I do think like there is, um. It like sort of useful horizontal companies being built, but they're all. Very much like, sort of like the reinventions of classic cloud in the AI era and the, the primary one being sandboxes. Yeah. Um, which like, it's another form of compute guys, like, let's not get too excited about it.But I mean, like the, the workloads are enormous.[00:06:38] Jacob Effron: Right.[00:06:38] swyx: Yeah.[00:06:39] Jacob Effron: It's interesting, and I feel like as, as part of this, you know, the questions that folks are asking around infrastructure, there's a lot around, you know, the extent to which companies should have their own AI teams and what they should be doing in-house.And, you know, uh, I think there's questions around should people be training their own models? Should people be doing, you know, rl, uh, in-house based on the data they have? I feel like, you know, one has to evolve their takes on this every, every three months with paces. But where, where are you at on this today?[00:07:00] swyx: I think, well, I mean actually all models have gone up. Um, and obviously I'm involved in cognition and also cursors doing, doing, uh, a lot of own model training. And I think that that is some part of the, what I've been calling the agent lab playbook, where you start off with the state of the art models from, uh, from the big labs and you, uh, specialize for your domain.But once you have enough workload and enough high quality data from your users, then you can obviously train your own models and like save a lot on cost and latency and all that, all that good stuff. Um, you also get like a marketing bonus of like calling it some fancy name and putting out some research[00:07:38] Jacob Effron: from my seat.I can't tell how much of it is like actual, you know, value that's provided to the end user. And how much of it is that marketing bonus? Right. It seems some combination of the[00:07:45] swyx: I think it's both.[00:07:46] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:07:46] swyx: Um, no, no. There, there actually is real value. Um, and you, you know that for a number of reasons. Like one, even when it's not subsidized, people do choose it as like one of the top four or five.This is both composer two and, uh, suite 1.6 I one of the top five models. Like in a, in a fair market? In a free market, yeah. In a, in a, in a model switch. Or people do choose it and like, it's not subsidized. Like, so that's as good as it gets. Uh, but beyond that, like domain specific models, for example. For search with, with both, which both companies have absolutely makes, makes a ton of sense.Everyone says like, yeah, we should always, always do this. And honestly like, I think the infrastructure for that is becoming easier with, um, like thinking machines tinker thing as well as primary like, uh, lab stuff. Yeah, I mean like, this is one of those like reversal of the, the bitter lesson where you first bootstrap on the large models and the general purpose models to get big.And as you get very well-defined workloads that are just high quantity but not high variance, um, then you just distill down to a smaller model and run that on your own. Right. Which like totally makes sense.[00:08:50] Jacob Effron: What I'm less clear on is the kind of DIY RL use case, which I think is really mostly around, you know, improved, uh, quality for, for different things.Obviously there's probably like more efficient ways to, you know, get a smaller model that's that's faster and cheaper. And it'll be interesting to see whether. You know, obviously you had, you know, uh, two, three years ago this whole case of companies that were, you know, pre-training and claiming better outcomes in, in their domains than getting kind of cooked as each model iteration improved.You know, I wonder whether that's a, a similar story plays out in the, uh, in, in the, our all space. Yeah, for the focus on, on on pure outcomes and quality, not the cost side, which clearly your own models for cost at scale makes a ton of sense.[00:09:28] swyx: I think there are this, there are two sides of the same coin.Like you basically always want to hold, uh, quality constant or trade off a little bit of quality for a drastic decreasing cost. And that's true for everyone. Uh, one element I wanted to bring out, which is very much in favor of open models, is custom chips. So this would be cereus, but also talu. And then there's a huge range of stuff in between.This has been a huge story this past year on just like everything non Nvidia is getting bid up, including like freaking MatX is working for, which is very, which is very rewarding for me, but I think one of those things where like, oh, like the suddenly, because the number of alternative. Hard, uh, hardware is increasing and the inference that you can get is insanely high.Like, um, we're talking thousands of tokens per second instead of less than a hundred. So the trade off for qua quality doesn't hold as much anymore because the speed is so high.[00:10:24] Jacob Effron: Have you seen a lot of companies go all in on the alternative chip?[00:10:26] swyx: So cognition has Yeah. On Cerebras, uh, and, and so has OpenAIUm, uh, and so no, I don't think so beyond that, uh, and that, do you think that's like a, that's mostly, that's foreshadowing of, that's, yeah. I used to be kind of a skeptic in terms of like, okay, so what if I get my inference at a hundred to a hundred tokens per second sped up to 200 tokens per second. It's only two X faster.It's not that big a deal. Um, but when you, uh, I think every 10 x does unlock a different usage pattern. Um, and you, we have proof in Talas and, and some of the others. That you can actually, um, drastically imp improve inference speed and what happens from there? I don't even really know, like it's, it's so hard to predict when entire applications just appear at once.Yeah. Uh, and it also isn't that expensive, right? So like, um, this is one of those things where like, I, I think the, the investment cycle is gonna be multi-year. Um, and I. Would caution people to not dismiss it too, too quickly.[00:11:25] Jacob Effron: Yeah. I mean, one other like infra question I was curious to get your thoughts on is obviously it seems increasingly a lot of the cutting edge infra companies are building for agents as the buyers of their product or users of their product, right?[00:11:35] swyx: Ooh,[00:11:36] Jacob Effron: and[00:11:37] swyx: another huge theme. Yeah. Yeah.[00:11:38] Jacob Effron: And I'm trying to figure out like what. What, what do you have to do differently about selling into agents? Um, are they just the ultimate rational developers? Uh, or is there, you know,[00:11:46] swyx: no, absolutely not. Um, I think they are easily prompt, injected and, uh, very tuned towards like, basically com compounding existing winners.[00:11:57] Jacob Effron: Yeah,[00:11:57] swyx: so like if, like, congrats if you won the lottery for getting into the training data right before 2023, because now you're like installed in there for the foreseeable future. But yeah. Uh, you know, one stat that Versal, uh, CTO Malta dropped at my conference was that there are now, uh, 60% of traffic to Elle's, um, like app arch, like admin app architecture for like configuring versal applications, uh, is bought.It's not, it's not human. Uh, so like your primary customer is agents now. Um, and it's mostly co like mostly coding agents, mostly people using CLI on CP or whatever. But yeah, I mean, I think. More. I, I think step one, if it doesn't exist as an API that agents can use, it doesn't exist. Right, right. Which I think is like, uh, it's a good hygiene thing anyway, to, to make everything API available, but not as like an extra, um.Push on like products, people to not only work on the ui, um, you should probably work on the on SCLI stuff. Beyond that, I think honestly there is like, so I, I come from the sensibility of, I think everything that you are trying to do for agents experience now, which is the term that Matt Bowman and Nullify is trying to coin, is the same thing that you should have been doing for developer experience.That you should have had good docs, you should have had a consistent API, uh, that is. Mostly stateless. Um, you should have, I guess, discoverable or progressive disclosure or like search or like whatever. And so now that people have energy in like finding these customers to do that, that's great. Um, do I believe in.Extending beyond that into something like a EO, um, for gaming The chatbots? Not necessarily, but obviously there's gonna be huge advantages when people who figure out the short term wins. Yeah. And short term wins can compound.[00:13:43] Jacob Effron: Do you think these compounding advantages to like the, the pre-training data cutoff companies, like, you know, obviously over some period of time, I imagine that doesn't persist.And so as you think about like. I dunno, three, four years from now what the, you know, selection criteria end up being. Do you think it still mirrors exactly what you were saying before? Like it's exactly what you should have been doing all along to sell a good product to developers?[00:14:01] swyx: It could be, except that I think in three, four years we'll probably have much better memory and personalization.So then general a EO or GEO doesn't really matter as much. So I think whatever memory or personalization system we end up with will probably d determine what you end up choosing much more. Than, than what is currently the case, which is just frequency of mentions, let's call it. Yeah,[00:14:26] Jacob Effron: yeah.[00:14:26] swyx: Uh, so you just spa quantity and I think that's, I mean, that's something I'm looking forward to.I do think, like, like, you know, I, I think that the fundamental exercise to work through for yourself is if you start a new, um, sort of. Uh, disruptor company. Now there's a, there's a big incumbent that everyone knows, like, like superb base. Super base is like, kind of like the Postgres, like database, uh, incumbent.If you wanna start like new superb base, how would you compete with them? And I don't necessarily have the answer, but I, I, I do think like people, like resend like relatively new. I think they would start like 20, 23 and still there was, there was a recent survey where like, people. Checked what Claude recommends by default.If you just don't prompt it with anything, just say, gimme an email provider and says, resent as in like 70, 70% of each cases. Like the fact that you can get in there with like such a relatively short existence, I think is, is encouraging.[00:15:14] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:15:14] swyx: I do think like. Um, you do want to do whatever it is to, to like to, to get in that Very short mentions this because, um, it's not gonna be 20 of them, it's gonna be like three.[00:15:26] Jacob Effron: No, definitely. It feels like, uh, you know, probably more, more consolidation than ever. Uh, or, or kind of like, you know, uh, a winner take most market than maybe the, the, the physics of go-to market in the past. Yeah. Might have, uh, enabled.[00:15:38] swyx: The other thing also is like, semantic association is gonna be very important, uh, in the sense that like, you want to do like the combo articles where you're like, use my thing with for sale, with blah, blah.And like that all gets picked up in a, in a corpus. And so that's. Probably one thing that you, you wanna do? Well, I don't know what else. Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's one of those things where like, I think I feel, I feel I'm behind, uh, I don't know how you feel about this, but like,[00:16:04] Jacob Effron: I think AI is just everyone constantly feeling like they're behind some, uh,[00:16:08] swyx: yeah.With,[00:16:09] Jacob Effron: I wanna meet the person that doesn't feel behind,[00:16:11] swyx: but like with, with ax, right? Like, so, so like, my, my stance was that exactly what I said before, like everything that you, that you should do for agents is something that you should have done for humans anyway. Yeah. And so. To the extent that you're just getting it more energy to, to do things for agents, great.But like, uh, it's hard to articulate what new thing apart from just like more spam, um, that you should be doing. Anyway, that would be my take right now. Um, I I, I do think like there, there will be more turns at this. I think the personalization turn that is coming, um, will be big. And I don't know what that looks like because like basically we're kind of, we feel kind of tapped out on the memory side of things.[00:16:49] Jacob Effron: Yeah. I, I guess since we last chatted, you know, you, you took this role over at cognition, um, and you've obviously have a, have a front row seat to the AI coding space today. You know, I feel like coding in many ways. You know, people view it as this, like, I mean, besides being like the, the mother of all markets and this massive opportunity, I think it's kinda a preview of like, what's to come for many other spaces.Both. Yeah. You know, I feel like agents are most advanced in coding. I also feel like the, you know, competition between foundation models and application companies, you know, and, uh, mirrors what we may see in other spaces. And so maybe for our listeners, can you just lay out like what is the state of the AI coding wars today?[00:17:25] swyx: Um, it is massive, right? Like, uh, and I don't think necessarily, last time we talked about this, we appreciated the size of what[00:17:32] Jacob Effron: No, I wish we did.[00:17:33] swyx: I state of AI coding wars today, um, both opening eye philanthropic have made it their p serials to competing coding. Um, and. Tropic is like 2.5 billion in a RR just from Cloud Code.The way they recognize a RR is. Opt for debate, uh, open ai. I don't think the, a public number is known, but let's call it 2 billion as well. And then cursor is like, rumored to be 2 billion, you know? And, and those, those are like the public numbers that are known? Yeah. Um, so like huge markets that have just been created in the past one year.Like, like anthropic, just like Claude Code just recently celebrated their one year anniversary, which is, yeah, pretty nice. Um, so, and then I think, like the other thing that I see is there's, there's some other people who are like, oh, here's like the, the sort of relative penetration of, uh, Claude use cases, right?Like, and it's like coding 50% and then legal, whatever. Health, uh, it's like the, the remaining ones. And there was a very popular tweet that was like, okay, I'll look at the, the empty space and all these other use cases. If you are a new founder today, you should be betting on the other stuff because on, on a sort of catch up Yeah.Theory and my. Consider my, my pushback is the same pushback that, uh, I had on app over Google, which is like, well, well why is this time different? Like, why, if it went from let's say 10 to 50% in the past year, why can't I keep going? Uh, and like getting that wrong is actually a very painful one because you could have just did, did the momentum bet.Instead of the mean reversion bed. So I, I, I think that that is the, the state of things now that people are very, very much into psychosis. Um, they're are getting rewarded for spending more rather than spending less. And I think we're not in that phase of efficiency. We're in a phase of sort of like capability exploration.So I think people who are more crazy, who are more. Uh, creative, um, get rewarded comparatively. Yeah.[00:19:27] Jacob Effron: Well, it's interesting. I mean, it feels like behind these like token maxing, leaderboards and whatnot is this, it's like the first phase of this transition from a workforce perspective is you just gotta show your employer like, Hey, I, I use these tools.[00:19:37] swyx: Here's my nu number of tokens I cost, and that's it. They don't care about the quality. Right. It is, uh, maybe distasteful to someone who cares about the craft and, and all that. Um, but directionally everyone just wants you to go up regardless. And so, um, there it is not very discerning. It's, and it's probably very sloppy, but I think it's net fine because we're still probably underusing ai just in generally.Yeah. Um, and so I think that's like very interesting. Like we had on the podcast, uh, Ryan La Poplar from OBI, who spends a billion tokens a day. Yeah. Um, and that's for those county home, it's like something like 10,000 worth, $10,000 worth a day of API tokens. If they, they did market rates, um, and like most of us can't afford that.Yeah. But like. And, and, and probably a lot of what he does is slop.[00:20:25] Jacob Effron: Right.[00:20:25] swyx: But like, he's going to dis, he's like, if there were a new capability, he would discover it first before you because he was, he was trying and you were not trying. Right. And like, you only do things that work like, well, good for you.But like the, the people who are going to discover the next hot thing are living at the edge.[00:20:42] Jacob Effron: Right and increase in living at the edge of just having the compute budget to like run these experiments. I mean, kind of similar to what living at the edge on the research side has always been. You know, it was constrained in many ways by the amount of compute you had to run these experiments.It feels similarly on the, almost on the builder or like actualizing these tools now.[00:20:56] swyx: Yeah. The other thing that's, I mean, very obvious is philanthropic is kind of like the high price premium player. Um, that where, you know. Restricting limits or restricting model releases even is like the name of the game.Whereas Codex is like, come on in guys, use our SDK, use our login and we don't care. We're gonna reset limits. Whatever you do want to try to exploit the subsidies where you can get it. And definitely Codex is super subsidized right now. Gemini also very subsidized. Um, and. Comparatively, like, I think you should make, Hey, I guess while, while that's going on, it's not that bad to be a capabilities explorer on just the $200 a month plan from Cloud Code or from OpenAI.Um, and, uh, I I, I, my sense is that people aren't even there yet.[00:21:41] Jacob Effron: How do you think this, like, market ultimately plays? I mean, it's obviously such a big market that, you know, any slice of that market is interesting for, for anyone going after it. But I think what, what makes people so interesting in the coding market particularly is it feels like it's kind of this.Foreshadowing of what will happen in other, you know, any other kind of application market that the foundation models eventually turn to and are all their models against and gather data around. And so how do you think, you know, like does there end up being room for lots of different kinds of players or like, what do you think the end state of this market is and is that, do you think that's applicable to other markets?[00:22:10] swyx: I feel like there will be, I mean. Status quo is probably the most likely outcome, which is there are two big players and there's a small range of longer tail people that, um, fit other use cases that the, the two big players don't. That feels right to me. I think that, um, for it to, for the market structure to, to significantly change there would be, there needs to be significant change in like the economics or like the, the brand building or like the, the, the, the value propositions of the, of the companies involved and I.Haven't seen any in the last six months that, that have really changed the stories materially. So I feel like they would just keep going until something, something else happens. Something else happens, meaning like Microsoft wakes up and like goes like. Guys, we have GitHub, we have, uh, you know, we, we, we'll, we'll do something much bigger here than other, other than just copilot.Um, and, uh, that would be a big change. Um, MSL has put out a model now, and I was in a breakfast with, uh, Alex Wang, where they were like, yeah, like, we, we really, really want to go after the coding use case. We haven't done anything yet, but like, don't underestimate them. Right. Um, and, and similarly for the Chinese labs.Um, I think they're trying to go after it. Like ZAI is doing stuff. GLM uh, ZI and GLM is same thing. Um, uh, and, and so it's, so like everyone's trying to get a piece of that pie. I, I feel like the, the status quo has been pretty stable for the past, like almost a year I'll say.[00:23:39] Jacob Effron: Yeah. And is the room for the, not like, you know, for, for the application companies more on like the enterprise side or like where do the, where do the, like what surface area do the model companies leave for application companies?[00:23:50] swyx: Yeah, that's a good one. Um. It's very much evolving. Um, it, I, I, I will say because opening I did not have this, the, this level of attention on coding. Yeah. Uh, a year ago. We just don't have that much history. Right. Um, and it seems like, for example, so the big push at Open I now is the Super app. Um, is that a consumer thing?Is that like a products like. Portfolio rationalization thing, how much is that gonna take away attention from coding at the time when they actually do want to put more coding? I think it's, it's very unclear. So I do think like there's, there's all these, like in both big labs, there's. Uh, sorry. Both of the, and, and drop and, and deep minus and XAI are are separate cases.Um, they are trying to see the other time expansion areas. So cloud code for finance. Yeah. Um, uh, cloud cowork, all those, all those things. Whereas I think cursor and cognition are like comparatively just focused on coding and so I, I do think they leave space and I do think for the other verticals that also means the same thing.Right. That, uh, that they're not gonna be that. Um, intensely focused on, on, on that domain. Except for, I, I think I would mark out finance and healthcare as like the next ones, um, that they're clearly going after. Uh, I, I would say comparatively, healthcare seems more thorny. There, there, there've been some announcements about it, but like, I would respect the, the finance work a lot more just because like the, the path to money is a lot clearer.[00:25:12] Jacob Effron: Yeah, no, I mean, obviously like, I, I think, you know, maybe similar to, to the space that's being left in these other domains, you know, there's obviously. Uh, a lot that's required to actually implement these tools in enterprises, uh, versus, you know, maybe just giving them, uh, giving model access to, to folks outta the box.[00:25:27] swyx: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the, the agent lab thing is like, we'll do the last mile for you. Whereas I think the model labs tend to just trust the model and, and be minimalist about it. Both of them work.[00:25:38] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:25:38] swyx: I, I don't, I don't necessarily think one, uh, beats the other, uh, for every, for every use case. Um, all I, all I do know is that it does seem like.Uh, the large enterprises do want a dedicated partner that isn't just the model labs, which is kind of interesting.[00:25:55] Jacob Effron: We, we've been in this phase of, of pure capability exploration. And so I think nothing has been, you know, better for the large labs, right? I mean, they're always gonna be, uh, uh, the frontier of, of capability exploration.And so I think have a very good relationship with a lot of these enterprises. But ultimately over time, like. The, uh, the incentive structure of these labs is always gonna be maximal, you know, token consumption for, uh, for the end customers they work with. And there's just, I think, so few companies that have actually gotten to massive scale.Maybe coding again is the most interesting. So it's the first space that really is just completely gone, you know? Yeah. You must love it every day. Like absolutely insane. And. I think it[00:26:32] swyx: gets even. Okay. I mean, like, I think we, we say good things about crystal cognition, but the sheer liftoff of like both end UPIC and open ai.‘cause they, they, they have independent valuations. I mean, let's throw an XEI in there because it's now I ping at 1.2 trillion. That number is just mind boggling. Like I, I feel like in normal investing or normal startups, there's kind of like a ceiling market cap or valuation. Totally. That, that like you, you reach and you go like, all right, let's, it's gonna be chiller from now on.And these guys are not slow down. No.[00:27:02] Jacob Effron: Well, I also think the dynamic is fascinating about some of these later stage companies is, is, you know, in the past, I feel like in, in venture world, if you got to a certain level of scale, the question around you was really more a valuation question. And this is like why there was different phase, like, you know, types of venture people did and like the late stage growth people were just incredible at like, you know, a little bit of what's the ultimate market opportunity of this company, but also what's the right way to, to value it.Like we know it's, it's in some bands of an outcome that is like. Sure there's some variance to it, but it's like relatively understood what that bands is and then maybe you get over time surprised to the upside. Whereas any kind of like later, even the labs themselves, any later stage company, the bands of which that company might be worth right now, even in a year or two years are so massive because of how fast the ecosystem changes that it's like.Even for later stage companies, every three months could be an existential level event to the upside to the downside. Yeah. Um, and I think that, like, you are obviously seeing it in the, in the positive with code, which, you know, if you think about a company like philanthropic, you know, that. For a while, it was like unclear if they were going to have access to enough capital, um, to really stay in the, in the race, right?And then coding hit at the exact right time. They had the perfect model for it. They executed brilliantly. Um, and you know, now are, are, you know, uh, you know, one of the most valuable companies in the world.[00:28:13] swyx: Uh, at the same time, I, I don't find, I, I have zero sympathy for opening eye because they're crushing it and they're all rich.You know, this is like a high class champagne problem to have to, uh, to be number two at coding or whatever. Like, who cares? Like, you're, you're doing great.[00:28:27] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It's funny though. I can't even, I mean, you would be closer to this, uh, you know, even that you're in the AI coding space, but it's like a lot of people I talk to think Codex is just as good, if not better than Claude Code.Right. I think one thing that I've been really surprised by, and maybe, maybe Cloud Code is a better product in some ways, I'm curious your thoughts is just in consumer AI with chat GBT. You saw this big first mover advantage, right? Where admittedly today, like, I don't know, Claude Gemini. Great products.Not sure, not abundantly clear chat GBTs any better, but like. People stick with chat, GBT, it's the first thing to introduce them.[00:28:56] swyx: They stay, but they're not growing anymore. I don't know if you've seen[00:28:59] Jacob Effron: Right. But that to me is more of like a, a, a product problem than it is. They're not like, it's not like they've like lost share to someone else.My understanding is the overall problem with consumer AI today is much more of a how do you take this tool and, you know, for, for folks like us, like knowledge workers, it's like this incredible magic tool, but it's not necessarily a daily active use tool for a lot of people around the world today. And what are the like products?It's, it's kind of a category wide problem. Like in coding, for example, like. The entire space has gone parabolic. There may be some relative growth in, uh, in other consumer AI players, but it's not like consumer AI as a category is like going parabolic and they're not capturing most of that thing. I think it's actually the larger problem is much more, hey, the category has kind of hit a bit of a plateau of people haven't figured out how to bring, you know, tons more users on board.Yeah, yeah. Or increase the frequency of those users. And so it seems more of a category wide problem than it is, you know, a massive market share of change. I was gonna draw the comparison to, to the coding space where Claude Co is the first product, obviously, to introduce people to this magical experience.You know, by all accounts, codex is, is pretty damn close to as good, if not better. Um, but like still that first product, you, you would've thought that would not be a super sticky, uh, you know, product surface area. And it actually has, it turns out, I, it feels like the first lab to introduce you and experience really does, uh, keep a lot of, uh, a lot of the focus.[00:30:12] swyx: I, I think. M maybe it's like still, still early days. You know, Chad, BT is like three plus years old and Yeah. Cloud code is only one. Just turned a year. Yeah. So give it time, you know? Yeah. Like, yeah. I mean, definitely sometimes a lot of people have switched from to Codex. Maybe that will keep going. I, it's like really hard to tell.Uh, yeah. I, I, I do, I do think that. Because we are in this like, high volatility, high temperature phase. Um, the loyalty and stickiness to first movers and category creators, I don't think is as high as it might be in some other, uh, areas in our careers that we've looked at.[00:30:47] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Though, I mean, I've been surprised by the cloud code thing.I, I would've thought that, like, in many ways I always worried about the[00:30:52] swyx: enterprise. You think you would've been gone by now?[00:30:53] Jacob Effron: Not gone. But I would've, I I always worried that the, that the consumer business of these companies would be quite sticky. And then the enterprise API business. Uh, was actually like, you know, in some ways like your least loyal buyers, like they would, they would move to,[00:31:05] swyx: right, right.But, but they worked out that it wasn't the enterprise API it was enterprise product.[00:31:09] Jacob Effron: Totally. And maybe that was the, that was the secret that like, but the amount of lock-in or just default behavior that has happened in that space, uh, is, is more than I might've imagined with two products that by all accounts are pretty damn similar.Yeah.[00:31:22] swyx: No fight there. Uh, I will say I do think that Codex is still in like a catch up. Like in terms of personal experience. Um, the only thing I like out of, out of Codex is the, is like Spark and like yeah. Uh, the, I, I feel like the skills integration is a little bit better. I feel like, uh, the, the speed is a bit better.Maybe ‘cause it's in, is written in rust or whatever. Um, very minor things that you like. Almost like telling yourself rather than like objectively assessing between two, two of them. I, I, I do think, like vibes wise, I think that's going on. Um, the, the, you know, I, I feel like the, the missing questions, uh, in, in this whole debate is like, why is this so concentrated in only two names, right?Yeah. Like, um, how, where, like, where is the Gemini? You know, presence, where's the Xai presence? Um, and like they are trying, it's just they haven't made that much progress yet.[00:32:12] Jacob Effron: But what the, what the Claude Co moment does show, and it actually in some ways makes you a little more bullish on the potential for someone else to catch up because it does feel like if you're the first person to introduce some magical net new product experience, that that actually might be stickier than one might have imagined.[00:32:27] swyx: Right, right, right. Okay. Yeah.[00:32:28] Jacob Effron: And so it's, everyone can believe they have shot[00:32:29] swyx: that. What do you think that new product experience might be like? I, I, it's, it's like, and this is a failure of imagination on my part. Like, I always wonder, like, people always say this like, well, the, the thing that will save us is like being first to the next new thing.Like what is it?[00:32:41] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:32:42] swyx: It's like,[00:32:45] Jacob Effron: I dunno, something around like, uh, consumer agent, computer use, like hybrid. I think, obviously, I think we're like scratching the surface on the consumer side.[00:32:53] swyx: So my, my current theory is like the. Open claw is like a vision of things to come.[00:32:58] Jacob Effron: Totally.[00:32:58] swyx: Um, and uh, it's good that O open I has like the association with open claw, but by no means do they have the rights to win it.The general thesis that I have been pursuing now is that the year the same way that 2025 was the year of coding agents, 2026 is coding agents breaking containment to do everything else. Um, and so coding agents continue to still win, but because they generate software and software eats the world, so like, it's kind of like the trans.Associated property of like software, eat the world, coding agents, eat software, therefore coding agents eat the world. Um, which is like an interesting,[00:33:30] Jacob Effron: yeah, and breaking containment always an easier phase phrase in the consumer context than the enterprise one. You've seen people run these really cool, uh, experiments in their own personal lives.I think like,[00:33:37] swyx: yes.[00:33:38] Jacob Effron: Figuring out, you know, how you, obviously everyone's focused, you know, on the enterprise side now around how you create these experiences. I feel like the vibes, you know, people love to have these narratives of like, everything is completely shifted. It's like I actually, you know, open AI.Organizationally, uh, you know, volatility aside is, you know, great products, great team, great models like everyone else in the world is incentivized for there to be. Two, three more. Everyone would love more like great model companies. And so I feel like the, the natural forces of the world revolt when any one company, you know, is too much the star of the show, right?There's so many people in the ecosystem that are incentivized for that not to happen. And so I think I'd be shocked if we don't have. Uh, uh, reversion of vibes, not maybe completely the other way, but at least a little bit more equal at some point over the next six, 12 months.[00:34:24] swyx: I, I think there's just a kind of different stages when, when you talk about the world, one wanting more model companies, I talked think about like the neo labs.[00:34:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:34:31] swyx: And I mean, I don't know, is it fair to say none of them have really broken through in the past year?[00:34:35] Jacob Effron: I think that's totally fair,[00:34:37] swyx: which is rough. Um, and well, how are we gonna, how are we gonna grow that diversity in, in, in choice, like. Um, that's, this is it.[00:34:46] Jacob Effron: Yeah. It'll be really interesting to see what, what, what ends up happening with that.And you've seen, you know, folks like Nvidia, you know, very incentivized to make sure there's, there's a broader platform of, of other model providers.[00:34:57] swyx: I think, uh, I don't know people say this, but I, I, I don't think they try it hard. Nvidia tries harder to build neo clouds[00:35:05] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:35:06] swyx: Than neo labs.[00:35:07] Jacob Effron: Well, they try pretty damn hard to build neo Cloud, so[00:35:09] swyx: that's,[00:35:09] Jacob Effron: yeah.[00:35:10] swyx: But like, you know, let's call it like the, the core weaves of the world, much happier place in the, you know, than any neo lab built on top of them.[00:35:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah. That one might argue it's, it's easier to, to enable a neo cloud to be successful than it is. Uh, you can't will a neo lab into existence the same way you, soNvidia[00:35:25] swyx: has more direct control over it.Uh, for sure.[00:35:27] Jacob Effron: What else is kind of catching your eye today on the startup side? I mean, you worry, there's obviously this whole narrative of like, you know, the foundation models, you know, they announced a product and every stock goes down 15%. Like[00:35:36] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:37] Jacob Effron: Do you, do you worry about the foundation models just kind of eating into to a bunch of these startup categories?[00:35:43] swyx: Not really. I, I think actually like. As, uh, there's, there's, okay, there's, there's, there's the, there's the point of view of like being an investor in startups, and there's a point of view of like, do you wanna start something? And I think honestly, like the, the downside for all these is so. Minimal in, in a sense of like, the worst you do is you just get hired into one of these labs anyway.So I, I think the, the market for people who just do things and try things and try to execute in like a competent way, even if like it doesn't work out commercially, even if it just wasn't that great anyway. Like, but like that's your job interview to go into, into one of these things anyway, so, um, I don't feel that.From a, from a very, very small startup perspective, mid-size startups. Yes. Uh, I will say there's been a lot of dead, um, LM Infra, a lot of LM infra consolidation like the, the, uh, lang fuses of the world getting absorbed into, into click house. And I, I think. Like people have maybe worked out the domain specific playbook, uh, and like, I think that's okay.Um, and, and yeah, I'm not that, not that worried about, uh, okay. So, um, I, I would say I'd be more worried about traditional SaaS, like low NPSS. This is the whole AI versus SaaS debate that has, that's been going on. Uh, and, and like literally I'm going through that exact thing in my company where, so I like kind of.Thinking through this on a very visceral, visceral level, right? On one hand you have the people who say you vibe coders don't appreciate the amount of work that goes into A-A-C-R-M and like, yeah, you think you can rip out Salesforce? So did the 30 entrepreneurs before you, right? Like, like, you know, you classically underestimate the things that you don't.Deeply, no. And, and, and target audience is not you. Uh, at the same time, like we have never been able to build software so easily and customize software so easily and like Yeah, you're not gonna use 90% of the things in Salesforce. So like, yeah. What's the typical, so what have you, what[00:37:33] Jacob Effron: have you done internally?[00:37:34] swyx: So we have there the main SaaS that we do for event management and sponsor management. That's, and we paid 200 KA year for that. Not, not huge, but like chunky for, for, for my, my scale. Um, and like, yeah, I could probably spend 2000 and, and build like a custom version of that. Um, the, the, the trick has been dealing with my, the rest of my team and getting them on board.Yeah. ‘cause I'm the most ethical person on my team, but like, I can't make that decision myself. And I think in the same way I've been telling with other CEOs team leaders as well, it's like, well you can be super cloud pilled. You can be super LM psychosis and that you think that's okay, but you like you have to bring your team with you.And I think like there, the sort of widening disparity in LM psychosis in companies is causing real s real riffs because. And on one hand, on one hand, the people who are less AI native are not getting with the picture. They're not, they're actually like behind, they're actually not waking up to the fact that like you, everything you think is necessary is not actually that necessary.And in fact, exactly would be better of you if you just like held your nose and went in and when came out the other side. Yeah, only talking to agents in natural language and like your life would actually be better and you just, you're just like close-minded. There's that perspective. The other perspective is, oh, you vibe coder.You, you did this in a weekend and you got the 80% solution and now the rest of your employees. Have to pick up the rest of your s**t, right, that you, that you thought you were, you were such hot, amazing, uh, uh, at, but like, actually you didn't figure it out. And like, actually LMS are still useless at this and blah, blah, blah.So like, I think there's this huge debate going on in every company right now. Um, and like, um, you know, I have a small microcosm of it, but like, yeah, it, it's making me hesitate to, to pull the trigger. But like I will at some point, it's like maybe I've put it off for one year, but not like five. Yeah, but like, so, so like SaaS is definitely getting squeezed.Um, it does make me wonder, like, I, I do think that there's an opportunity for a more AI native, um, system of record thing that is not just Postgres. Um, or not just MongoDB, although both are very good. Maybe it's like a convex or like people Yeah. Bring up convex a lot. I don't know, like, like, I, I just feel like the sort of quote unquote firebase of, of AI apps isn't really a thing yet.Um, beyond what we have. Uh, which, which is fine. It's, it's, it's just. We could probably start in a more sort of rapid iteration cycle first before scaling up to like a Postgres or MongoDB, which are more sort of old tech. I was at a dinner with, uh, Mike Krieger, the CPO of en philanthropic, and, and he, we were just kind of going around the room going like, what are people most worried about?Yeah. And, uh, for me, uh, I, instead of security, I brought up biosafety. Yeah,[00:40:21] Jacob Effron: classic.[00:40:22] swyx: Um, actually, like I said, it was. Cliche and classic, and the rest of the table were, were like, what do you mean? Someone sitting at home can manufacture a virus that wipes out half of humanity,[00:40:32] Jacob Effron: almost like the OG Jeffrey Hinton.Like, this is why you should be scared.[00:40:35] swyx: I'm like, yeah, like the read the, you know, risk reports. Like this is like the thing. Um, I think, and Mike was just sitting there knowing he was sitting on Mythos and going like, actually it's security. Um, and I think like, um, I think the, there's, there's, part of it is.A very good marketing. Like too good. Yeah, like I would actually advise and topic to tune down the marketing because also it's, it is just a very good model and you don't have to make so many marketing claims around it. At the same time, it is not really a private model. If you give it to 40 companies.Each of whom have like 10,000 employees or whatever. Right. It's not, it's not private, it's, it's like there's bad actors in there.[00:41:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Hopefully, hopefully not as, uh, as bad as releasing it widely, but, uh, no, I mean, it's an interesting. You know, it's an interesting case study for how all, I mean, many model releases might, I mean, you know, this might be the first model release that looks like the rest of ‘em from from now on, right?[00:41:31] swyx: It, it, so it's, it's the, there's an overall product strategy, uh, for anthropic of like bundle, uh, you know, restrict access bundle, uh, product with model maybe.Whereas, uh, OpenAI has definitely been a lot more sort of. Philosophically aligned on like, we will just enable access everywhere and we don't know what you, what will come out of it. Right.[00:41:51] Jacob Effron: Right. Though, I mean, this current moment, uh, obviously the cynical take is also just ties to the amount of compute that both companies[00:41:56] swyx: Yeah.Right, right, right. Yeah, I think, I think that's true. I I do think like the, the, this is the, the, the scale, the dawn of like larger than 10 trillion parameter models is very interesting. I don't think it, I think it's a temporary phenomenon because we have much larger compute clusters coming online for everyone over the next like three, five years.It's, and this is like already written in, in the cards.[00:42:18] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:42:19] swyx: So to the extent that like, you know, will we have rationing of models, uh, above 10 trillion, uh, in like two years? I don't think so. I think everyone will have no, we'll just[00:42:29] Jacob Effron: have rationing of the next phase.[00:42:30] swyx: Right. Right. But like, that's as it should be almost like, um.My, my classic example, which I, this is just me theorizing, not anything confirmed by Google. When Google announced Gemini, they actually announced three sizes, which was Flash Pro Ultra. They never released Ultra. They only have Pro and Flash. Um, so my theory is they have ultra sitting in a basement and they just could distilling from it for, for flashing pro.Um, which like, yeah, I mean, I, I actually think that's. As it should be for any lab that they, that they do that.[00:43:02] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Just because those are the models that people actually wanna end up using. And it's just like cost prohibit.[00:43:06] swyx: It is more, yeah, it's cost. Yeah. It's, it's not the want, it's just, just, just the cost.Um, I do think, like, uh, it is interesting that, uh, for a while I was, I was considering the theory that models capped out at two, 2 trillion, and I think that's proving to be wrong. And well then if I'm wrong, how wrong? How wrong am I? Do we do 200 trillion? Do we do two quarter trillion, whatever? Um, and I don't think we have the straight answer to that, but like, uh, it's interesting that we are continuing to scale number of pers when everyone kind of assu like can see that we're not going to get like the next thousand or 1 million x from this paradigm.So like the others, like the alias of the world are working on other. Um, model architecture improvements. We need a different scaling law, I guess, because like, we're, I, I feel like people already already feel like we're tapped out on this. Like the, the end, the end state of this is we turn most of the world into data centers and like, I don't know.I don't know if we want that.[00:44:08] Jacob Effron: Yeah, I mean, uh, if the, if, if, if the return of intelligence are there, maybe, uh, maybe not so bad.[00:44:13] swyx: I, I, I think there, there's just a sheer amount of like, like un scalability that like is wrangling people's sensibilities right now. Um, especially in terms of like context lengths.Um, my classic quote is that context length is like the slowest scaling factor in, in lms.[00:44:30] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:44:30] swyx: Um, we, like, we took maybe. Three years to go from like 4,000 context length to a million and that's about it. Yeah. Like Gemini has had a million token context length for two years now. Um, and no one's using it.Like, so like yeah, it's memory. Memory is probably gonna be the, the biggest limiting constraint on all these things.[00:44:50] Jacob Effron: Yeah. Certainly seems that way. I guess I'm curious over the last year since you recorded last, like what's one thing you've changed your mind on?[00:44:57] swyx: I feel like I was kind of bearish on open models like last year.Um, in a sense of, like, I, I had just done the podcast with an Al[00:45:07] Jacob Effron: Yeah.[00:45:08] swyx: Of Braintrust where he, and he, I mean, you know, he has a good cross section of all the top AI companies and he says market share of open source is 5% and going down. Um, I think that's changed. I think it's going up. Um, and even if,[00:45:22] Jacob Effron: even though the capability gap does seem to be increasing.Spending on the[00:45:26] swyx: time. It's hard to tell. Yeah, it's, it's really hard to tell. ‘cause like, okay, for, for listeners, capability gap increasing is like on public benchmarks. And let's say you're comparing mythos versus like, I don't know, G-T-O-S-S or like GLM 5.1. And, um, it's, it is really hard to tell. ‘cause even if they were closing, you will also not believe that they were closing that much because it's very easy to gain the benchmarks.Yeah. So you just don't really, really know. Um, all you know is like. Uh, there's somewhat objective open router stats on like what people choose in a free market. And people do choose some of these open models in significant volume, except that a lot of them are heavily discounted. So you need to kind of like price adjust, uh, these things.So even if, even if that were true, which I, I'm not sure, like I, I, I feel like the numbers just up now instead of down. Uh, I think the. Separation between what the top tier agent labs

Dans cet épisode, Delphine Zanelli reçoit Catherine Testa. Autrice, conférencière et entrepreneure, elle a créé le média L'Optimisme puis un think tank consacré au bien-être au travail et au futur du travail. Elle publie un nouveau livre sur l'optimisme dix ans après son premier ouvrage.En avant-première, Catherine Testa partage les enseignements de son nouveau livre Optimisme mode d'emploi, à paraître le 21 mai, et montre comment l'optimisme au travail nourrit l'action managériale.Alors qu'elle finalisait ce nouvel ouvrage, elle a fait l'amitié à Delphine Zanelli d'accorder cet entretien. Un échange où l'optimisme au travail éclaire l'énergie, la confiance et la capacité d'agir dans les périodes d'incertitude.Au fil de l'épisode, Catherine Testa propose une définition claire de l'optimisme au travail. Une manière de regarder la réalité avec lucidité, d'accueillir les difficultés, puis de choisir un espace d'action. Elle rappelle une idée forte : le véritable opposé de l'optimisme, c'est l'inaction.Nous parlons de ce qui influence profondément nos comportements et nos décisions : la culture d'entreprise, l'ambiance d'équipe, les récits familiaux, la santé mentale, la charge mentale collective, les contenus que nous consommons chaque jour, les peurs diffusées autour de nous. Pourquoi certaines équipes retrouvent de l'élan dans des périodes tendues quand d'autres se figent ? Pourquoi un manager transforme l'énergie d'un collectif ? Pourquoi la confiance progresse dans certains environnements et s'érode dans d'autres ?L'épisode met aussi en lumière le rôle des pratiques managériales. Un manager façonne un climat de travail, soutient l'engagement des collaborateurs, redonne du sens, ouvre des perspectives et aide chacun à reconnaître sa singularité. Catherine Testa rappelle que chaque personne occupe une fonction, et apporte aussi une manière unique de coopérer, de créer du lien, d'anticiper, d'apaiser une tension ou de faire avancer un projet.Autre thème central : l'intelligence artificielle et l'évolution des métiers. Catherine Testa propose une question décisive : “quelle est ma complémentarité ?”. Une réflexion utile pour les managers, les DRH, les RH, les assistantes, les fonctions support et toutes celles et ceux qui souhaitent continuer à contribuer avec impact dans un monde en transformation.Cet échange apporte des repères concrets sur le leadership, le management, la transformation du management, la confiance, la performance collective, l'engagement des collaborateurs et le futur du travail. Il montre aussi comment l'optimisme au travail nourrit l'action managériale et relance l'énergie collective dans les périodes floues.

The jump from high school to college is bigger than most families realize. In this conversation, I talk with Dr. Tara Williams about what neurodivergent students really need as they prepare for college and why so many of them struggle in that transition. We unpack the shift from high school supports to college systems, where students are suddenly expected to manage accommodations, communicate with professors, understand FERPA, and advocate for themselves in a much more independent way. Tara explains why waiting until the summer before college can create unnecessary stress, and why self-advocacy has to start getting practiced much earlier. We also talk about executive functioning in real life, not as a buzzword, but as the day to day challenge of keeping up with emails, assignments, schedules, accommodations, and decisions. Tara shares practical tools for helping students build those skills, along with a powerful reminder that college success is not just about getting into the "right" major or pushing through what is not working. Sometimes the real win is helping a student find the path that actually fits how they learn, think, and thrive. Key Takeaways College accommodations work very differently from high school supports. Students are expected to initiate the process, submit documentation, schedule meetings, and communicate with professors themselves. The summer before college is already a high pressure time to begin. Families need to know that accommodation offices may book far in advance, and waiting too long can mean starting the semester without support. Self-advocacy needs to be practiced before college. Students can start by emailing teachers, asking about missed work, and learning how to communicate their needs while still in middle school or high school. Executive functioning support is not one skill. It includes calendars, planning, batching tasks, reminders, follow through, and figuring out what systems a student will actually use. Parents may need support building these systems too. Many adults are trying to help their child with tools they were never taught themselves. A good system has to fit the person. Google Calendars, Post-its, color coding, batching emails, and breaking tasks down can all work, but only if the student will actually use them. Technology makes sustained attention harder for everyone. Notifications, learning platforms, email, and constant digital access all increase cognitive load for students and adults alike. Accommodations should be available even if a student does not use them every time. Signing up matters. The student can decide when they need the support. Sometimes the issue is not just skill, but fit. A student may be in the wrong major, the wrong course path, or a program chosen for them rather than with them. College success is often about redirection, not failure. Finding a path that matches a student's real strengths and interests can change everything. About Dr. Tara Williams Dr. Tara Williams is the owner and founder of Innovative Collegiate Consultants, Inc. She earned her PhD in Synthetic Inorganic Chemistry from the University of Sussex in Falmer, United Kingdom, and is currently a tenured professor at College of the Canyons in Santa Clarita, California, where she has taught for the past twenty years. Since 2010, she has worked with neurodivergent students across the United States after noticing how many were struggling with the transition from K-12 support systems to college environments that require far more self-advocacy. Dr. Williams and her team specialize in executive functioning coaching with a strong academic focus, supporting students with accommodations, course planning, email and LMS management, housing, internships, jobs, and more. Her work helps neurodivergent and neurotypical students build confidence, advocate for themselves, and thrive in school and college. About Your Host, Gabriele Nicolet I'm Gabriele Nicolet, toddler whisperer, speech therapist, parenting life coach, and host of Complicated Kids. Each week, I share practical, relationship-based strategies for raising kids with big feelings, big needs, and beautifully different brains. My goal is to help families move from surviving to thriving by building connection, confidence, and clarity at home. Complicated Kids Resources and Links Website: www.gabrielenicolet.com Schedule a free intro call: Book here YouTube: Subscribe here Tell the Story (anti-anxiety tool): Learn more Instagram: Follow here Facebook: Connect here LinkedIn: View profile Free "Orchid Kid" Checklist: Download here Enjoying the show? If Complicated Kids has been helpful, the best way to support the podcast is to follow, rate, and leave a quick review. It helps other parents find the show and it means a lot. If there's a topic you'd love to hear covered on a future episode, you can always reach out at podcast@complicatedkids.com. I love hearing what's on your mind and what would support your family. Thank you for being here.

In this bonus episode recorded live at the Collegis Education DisruptED summit in Phoenix, we spoke with Denise Aberle-Cannata, Provost at the College of Western Idaho (CWI). They talk about building a student success model centered on the full student lifecycle—from inquiry through graduation and career placement. By mapping the student journey, the institution identified gaps and redesigned processes to create a more seamless, supportive experience grounded in relationships, not just systems.  The conversation emphasizes the importance of culture, change management, and cross-campus ownership in making student success initiatives stick. While technology played a supporting role in improving efficiency and visibility, the real impact came from aligning people, processes, and purpose around helping every student succeed. Guest Name: Denise Aberle-Cannata - Provost at College of Western Idaho Guest Social: LinkedIn Guest Bio: Since joining the College of Western Idaho in 2019, Denise Aberle-Cannata has led large-scale academic and operational transformation at Idaho's largest community college, serving more than 34,000 students annually. Her work has focused on redesigning the student experience and modernizing how education is delivered — including launching a college-wide CRM to strengthen coordinated student support, launching new LMS, refining and scaling high-quality online learning, and expanding flexible academic models that improve student momentum and completion. - - - -Connect With Our Host:Dustin Ramsdellhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/dustinramsdell/About The Enrollify Podcast Network:The Higher Ed Geek is a part of the Enrollify Podcast Network. If you like this podcast, chances are you'll like other Enrollify shows too!Enrollify is made possible by Element451 — The AI Workforce Platform for Higher Ed. Learn more at element451.com. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This week we talk about sailing NPCs, the demonic combat pacts in Leagues 6 so far, and we do a Q&A.Use code "BUNE20" for 20% off your order from https://mitchiefox.com! Leagues videos we made!Levelling all skills in Varlamore: https://youtu.be/TqGCJPmlhnACombat pacts builds: https://youtu.be/CfKPuBLvWFkEPISODE TIME STAMPS00:00 Intro & personal updates5:20 LMS changes8:26 South American servers update!!16:28 The rest of the Leagues: Demonic Pacts reveals!35:58 Our leagues progress & plans! 1:27:46 Q&A1:38:18 OutroEpisode notes:https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=97/gathering-qol-trouver-changes--more?oldschool=1https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=97/brazilian-game-worlds-are-live?oldschool=1https://secure.runescape.com/m=news/a=97/get-ready-for-leagues-vi-demonic-pacts---april-15th?oldschool=1Support the podcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/bunebapeWatch live on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/bunebapeWatch live on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@BuneBape/streamsCheck out our side channel for variety games: https://www.youtube.com/@SmallBapeWatch Rob live on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/smallbapeJoin Our Community Discord at: https://discord.gg/bunebapeHelp buy cosplay supplies: https://throne.com/bunebapeDid you enjoy the content or have any questions? Let us know by commenting and check out more content you might enjoy at the links below.Podcast: open.spotify.com/show/4B3zj5EwqpatWmUre5wV6V?si=HfDE6IY5SqWLjlmdsJyXKQInstagram: instagram.com/bunebapeTwitter: twitter.com/bunebapeosrsTikTok: tiktok.com/@bunebapeosrsMerch: bunebape.comBusiness Inquiries:Bunebape@gmail.comTags:#osrs #oldschoolrunescape #osrspodcast #bunebape #runescapepodcast #podcast

In this episode of Business Influencers, Nicholas Hayduk, President of Engineered Code Consulting Inc. and creator of ecLearn LMS, explores how organizations are transforming learning and workforce readiness in a digital first environment.He challenges the traditional approach of adding more systems and instead highlights the value of consolidating training within the Microsoft Business Applications ecosystem.The conversation addresses key challenges faced by modern organizations, including high operational costs caused by fragmented LMS platforms, limited visibility into compliance and certifications, and the difficulty of scaling training across global, hybrid, and field based teams.Nicholas shares how integrating learning directly into existing business applications can reduce administrative overhead, provide real time insights, and ensure that teams have the right skills at the right time.This episode offers practical guidance for leaders looking to simplify complexity, improve alignment, and build a more capable, future ready workforce.Host: Chris Salem Guest: Nicholas Hayduk (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicholashayduk/)Sound Editor: Mahesh RProducer: Archita Puranik

Dans cet épisode, Delphine Zanelli reçoit Olivier Sibony, professeur à HEC Paris et à Oxford, spécialiste de la prise de décision et des biais cognitifs. Il a travaillé plus de vingt ans chez McKinsey et est l'auteur de nombreux ouvrages.Delphine le reçoit à l'occasion de la sortie de son ouvrage Faut-il encore décider ? La décision humaine à l'ère de l'intelligence artificielle.Cet échange porte sur un enjeu central de pratique de leadership : la manière de prendre des décisions à l'ère de l'intelligence artificielle. La pratique de leadership est directement impactée par l'arrivée de l'IA dans la décision.Olivier Sibony rappelle un point central : décider est lié à la liberté et à la responsabilité.L'IA ne se limite plus à produire du contenu. Elle intervient dans la décision. Elle peut aider à décider, mais aussi, dans certains cas, décider mieux que nous.L'épisode distingue deux situations.Dans les tâches de génération de contenu, la collaboration humain-machine améliore le résultat.Dans les situations de décision, lorsque l'IA est plus performante, intervenir pour corriger peut dégrader la qualité de la décision.Trois manières de décider avec l'IA sont décrites.La délégation, lorsque la décision peut être confiée à un système validé, avec un objectif clairement défini.La co-décision, lorsque les critères sont multiples, difficiles à formaliser, et que l'IA sert à structurer la réflexion et à challenger les choix.Le refus d'usage, pour les décisions qui engagent une responsabilité qui ne peut pas être déléguée.L'épisode met en évidence une difficulté fréquente : définir ce qu'est une bonne décision. Dans de nombreuses situations, les objectifs ne sont pas explicités, les critères ne sont pas hiérarchisés et les arbitrages restent implicites.Cette réalité concerne directement le management et la pratique managériale. Elle transforme aussi la pratique de leadership, en déplaçant le rôle vers la définition des objectifs, le choix des outils et l'appropriation des conséquences.Un point est particulièrement souligné : la décision elle-même n'est qu'une partie du rôle. Ce qui compte, ce sont les éléments qui la précèdent et ceux qui la suivent.Enfin, la discussion aborde un enjeu plus large : la gouvernance de l'intelligence artificielle et la place des citoyens dans la définition des objectifs assignés aux systèmes d'IA.

Looking for daily inspiration?  Get a quote from the top leaders in the industry in your inbox every morning.   Marc Dixon is the managing director and co-founder USA of Study Academy USA. He got his start in the attractions industry in the mid-90s at Lagoon in Utah, then spent about two decades with Kodak in event imaging solutions before moving into other attraction tech businesses and, ultimately, e-learning. Today, Study Academy USA partners with organizations like IAAPA to build learning management systems and convert proven training content into trackable, scalable online courses for attractions. In this interview, Marc talks about technology in attractions, AI's purpose in the industry, and learning to take risks. Technology in attractions “We get to provide smiles and great experiences and memories.” Marc frames attraction technology as a means to capture, enhance, and scale what guests come for in the first place. He walks through the evolution of on-ride and experiential photography, from analog systems to digital, and from green screens to background removal and image enhancement. Even with smartphones everywhere, he argues the souvenir imaging business hasn't disappeared because guests still want content they cannot create themselves, especially on rides and in curated photo moments. He also connects that same “tech serves the experience” mindset to his current work with Study Academy USA. By building modern LMS tools and e-learning content for attraction operators and associations, the goal is to give attractions another practical way to train at scale while still supporting the on-the-job behaviors that make guest experiences great. AI's purpose in the industry “I've heard the statement that AI is not going to replace your job, but people using AI will.” Marc's view is that AI should primarily enhance work, not replace it outright. In imaging, he points to AI-driven improvements like background replacement and photo cleanup that reduce friction and raise quality, even when small mistakes happen in capture. In training, he sees AI as a way to make learning data more useful by pulling insights from LMS results and highlighting where teams are struggling, so leaders can coach more precisely. He's also clear about responsible use. Marc says he would never copy and paste AI output without reviewing it because it still needs to reflect his voice and intent. His biggest concern is people trusting AI blindly instead of treating it as a tool that speeds up work while still requiring human judgment. Learning to take risks “Learn to take risks, man, go for it. If there's something you're really passionate about and you want to try, what's the worst that can happen?” When Marc describes choosing entrepreneurship over a comfortable corporate role, he makes it clear that the risk is real and not always glamorous. There are good days and bad days, and some paths do not work out the way you expect. But he emphasizes persistence and adaptability, saying the wins come from believing it will work and being willing to pivot until you find the path that does. His advice to younger professionals is direct: take the risk, try the thing, and treat missteps as learning opportunities rather than permanent failures. That mindset, he says, is what keeps founders moving forward when uncertainty shows up.   Marc can be reached on LinkedIn, as well as by email at marc@studyacademyusa.com. To learn more about Study Academy USA, visit www.studyacademyusa.com. This podcast wouldn't be possible without the incredible work of our faaaaaantastic team:   Scheduling and correspondence by Kristen Karaliunas   To connect with AttractionPros: AttractionPros.com AttractionPros@gmail.com AttractionPros on Facebook AttractionPros on LinkedIn AttractionPros on Instagram AttractionPros on Twitter (X)

Some cancers get billions in funding, massive awareness campaigns, and life-saving research. Leiomyosarcoma isn't one of them. It's a rare, aggressive cancer that most people have never even heard of — but Dr. Mitch Achee & Annie Achee are hoping to change that. In this episode, they  explain  what LMS is, why it's so difficult to treat, and  how the National Leiomyosarcoma Foundation is filling the gaps through patient education, a 24/7 support hotline, and global research efforts. Truman Charities is proud to partner with the NLMSF for the upcoming Derby Party on May 2nd, where every dollar raised goes directly to patients and research. Purchase your Truman Charities Derby Tickets at HERE Connect with The National Leiomyosarcoma Foundation:WebsiteFacebookHotline: 303-808-3437Connect with Jamie at Truman Charities:FacebookInstagramLinkedInWebsiteYouTubeEmail: info@trumancharities.comThis episode was post produced by Podcast Boutique https://podcastboutique.com/

Fresh off raising a monster $15B, Marc Andreessen has lived through multiple computing platform shifts firsthand, from Mosaic and Netscape to cofounding A16z. In this episode, Marc joins swyx and Alessio in a16z's legendary Sand Hill Road office to argue that AI is not just another hype cycle, but the payoff of an “80-year overnight success”: from neural nets and expert systems to transformers, reasoning models, coding, agents, and recursive self-improvement. He lays out why he thinks this moment is different, why AI is finally escaping the old boom-bust pattern, and why the real bottleneck may be less about models than about the messy institutions, incentives, and social systems that struggle to absorb technological change.This episode was a dream come true for us, and many thanks to Erik Torenberg for the assist in setting this up. Full episode on YouTube!We discuss:* Marc's long view on AI: from the 1980s AI boom and expert systems to AlexNet, transformers, and why he sees today's moment as the culmination of decades of compounding technical progress* Why “this time is different”: the jump from LLMs to reasoning, coding, agents, and recursive self-improvement, and why Marc thinks these breakthroughs make AI real in a way prior cycles were not* AI winters vs. “80-year overnight success”: why the field repeatedly swings between utopianism and doom, and why Marc thinks the underlying researchers were mostly right even when the timelines were wrong* Scaling laws, Moore's Law, and what to build: why he believes AI scaling laws will continue, why the outside world is messier than lab purists assume, and how startups can still create durable value on top of rapidly improving models* The dot-com crash and AI infrastructure risk: Marc's comparison between today's AI capex boom and the fiber/data-center overbuild of 2000, plus why he thinks this cycle is different because the buyers are huge cash-rich incumbents and demand is already here* Why old NVIDIA chips may be getting more valuable: the pace of software progress, chronic capacity shortages, and the idea that even current models are “sandbagged” by supply constraints* Open source, edge inference, and the chip bottleneck: why Marc thinks local models, Apple Silicon, privacy, trust, and economics all point toward a major role for edge AI* American vs. Chinese open source AI: DeepSeek as a “gift to the world,” why open models matter not just because they're free but because they teach the world how things work, and how open source strategies may shift as the market consolidates* Why Pi and OpenClaw matter so much: Marc's claim that the combination of LLM + shell + filesystem + markdown + cron loop is one of the biggest software architecture breakthroughs in decades* Agents as the new “Unix”: how agent state living in files allows portability across models and runtimes, and why self-modifying agents that can extend themselves may redefine what software even is* The future of coding and programming languages: why Marc thinks software becomes abundant, why bots may translate freely across languages, and why “programming language” itself may stop being a salient concept* Browsers, protocols, and human readability: lessons from Mosaic and the web, why text protocols and “view source” mattered, and how similar principles may shape AI-native systems* Real-world OpenClaw use: health dashboards, sleep monitoring, smart homes, rewriting firmware on robot dogs, and why the most aggressive users are discovering both the power and danger of agents first* Proof of human vs. proof of bot: why Marc thinks the internet's bot problem is now unsolvable via detection alone, and why biometric + cryptographic proof of human becomes necessaryTimestamps* 00:00 Marc on AI's “80-Year Overnight Success”* 00:01 A Quick Message From swyx* 01:44 Inside a16z With Marc Andreessen* 02:13 The Truth About a16z's AI Pivot* 03:29 Why This AI Boom Is Not Like 2016* 06:33 Marc on AI Winters, Hype Cycles, and What's Different Now* 10:09 Reasoning, Coding, Agents, and the New AI Breakthroughs* 12:13 What Founders Should Build as Models Keep Improving* 16:33 AI Capex, GPU Shortages, and the Dot-Com Crash Analogy* 24:54 Open Source AI, Edge Inference, and Why It Matters* 33:03 Why OpenClaw and PI Could Change Software Forever* 41:37 Agents, the End of Interfaces, and Software for Bots* 46:47 Do Programming Languages Even Have a Future?* 54:19 AI Agents Need Money: Payments, Crypto, and Stablecoins* 56:59 Proof of Human, Internet Bots, and the Drone Problem* 01:06:12 AI, Management, and the Return of Founder-Led Companies* 01:12:23 Why the Real Economy May Resist AI Longer Than Expected* 01:15:53 Closing ThoughtsTranscriptMarc: Something about AI that causes the people in the field, I would say, to become both excessively utopian and excessively apocalyptic. Having said that, I think what's actually happened is an enormous amount of technical progress that built up over time. And like for, for example, we now know that neural network is the correct architecture.And I, I will tell you like there was a 60 year run where that was like a, you know, or even 70 years where that was controversial. And so, so the way I think about what's happening is basically, I think, I think about basically the, the, the period we're in right now is it's, I call it 80 year overnight success, right?Which is like, it's an overnight success ‘cause it's like bam, you know, chat GPT hits and then, and then oh one hits, and then, you know, open claw hits and like, you know, these are open, these are, these are like overnight, like radical, overnight transformative successes, but they're drawing on an 80 year sort of wellspring backlog, you know, of, of, of, of ideas and thinking it's not just that it's all brand new, it's that it's an unlock of all of these decades of like very serious, hardcore research.If I were 18, like this is a hundred, this is what I would be spending all of my time on. This is like such an incredible conceptual breakthrough.swyx: Before we get into today's episode, I just have a small message for listeners. Thank you. We will not be able to bring you the ai, engineering, science, and entertainment contents that you so clearly want if you didn't choose to also click in and tune into our content.We've been approached by sponsors on an almost daily basis, but fortunately enough of you actually subscribed to us to keep all this sustainable without ads, and we wanna keep it that way. But I just have one favor to ask all of you. The single, most powerful, completely free thing you can do is to click that subscribe button.It's the only thing I'll ever ask of you, and it means absolutely everything to me and my team that works so hard to bring the in space to you each and every week. If you do it, I promise you will never stop working to make the show even better. Now, let's get into it.Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Lidian Space Pockets. This is CIO, founder Kernel Labs, and I'm joined by s Swix, editor of Lidian Space.swyx: Hello. And we're in a 16 Z with a, uh, mark G and welcome.Marc: Yes, yes. A and what, half of 16? Something like that. A one. Exactly,swyx: exactly. Uh, apparently this is the, the final few days in your, your current office.You're moving across the road.Marc: Uh, we're, yeah. We have a, we have some, we have some projects underway, but yeah, this is actually, oh, this is the original. We're in actually the original office. We're in the, we're in the, we're, we're in the whole thing.swyx: It's beautiful. Yeah. Great.Marc: Thank you.swyx: So I have to come out, uh, this is a, you know, I wanted to pick a spicy start in October, 2022.I just made friends with Roone and, uh, I wanted to give him something to sort of be spicy about. And I said, uh. Uh, it'll never not be funny. The A 16 Z was constantly going. The future is where the smart people choose to spend their time and then going deep into crypto and not in ai. And that was in October 22nd, 2022.And Ruen says there was an internal meeting in a 16 Z to reorient around Gen ai. Obviously you have, but was there a meeting? What, what was that?Marc: I mean, I don't, look, I've been doing AI since the late eighties.swyx: Yeah.Marc: So I, I don't know, like all that, as far as I'm concerned, this stuff is all Johnny cum lately.Yeah. You, I mean, look, we've been doing ar entire existence. I mean, we've been doing AI machine learning deep, you know, deeply. We've been doing this stuff way from the beginning. Obviously a AI is just core to computer science. I, I, I actually view them as like quite, uh, quite continuous. Um, you know, Ben and I both have computer science degrees.Um, you know, we, we both, Ben, Ben and I actually both are world enough to remember the actual AI boom in the 1980s. Yeah. There was like a, there was a big AI boom at the time. Um, and there was a, was names like expert systems. Um, and they of like lisp and lisp machines. Uh, I, I coded in lisp. I was coding a lisp in 1989.When that was the, the language of the AI future. Um, yeah. So this is something that we're like completely, you completely comfortable with. I've been doing the whole time and are very enthusiastic aboutswyx: is there a strong, like this time is different because, uh, my closest analog was 20 16 17. It was an AI boom.Mm-hmm. And it petered out very, very quickly. Um, we, it just, it just in terms of investingMarc: sort of, sort of,swyx: yeah. Investment, investment excitement.Marc: Although that's really when the, the, the Nvidia phenomenon really, it was, I would say it was in that period when it was very clear that at, at the time it, the vocabulary was more machine learning, but it, it was very clear at that time that machine learning was hitting some sort of takeoff point.Alessio: Yeah.Marc: Well, and as you guys, you guys have talked about this at length on, on your thing, but, you know, if you really track what happened, I think the real story is, it was, it was the Alex net, uh, basically breakthrough in like 2013. That was the, that was the real knee in the curve. Um, and then it was obviously the transformer breakthrough in 17.Alessio: Yeah.Marc: Um, and then everything that followed. But, but, you know, look, machine learning, you know, there were, you know, look, uh, I mean look, I've been working, you know, I've been working with, uh, one of my, you know, kind of projects working with Facebook since 2004. Um, and on the board since 2007, and of course, you know, they, they started using machine learning very early, um, and, you know, have used it basically, you know, for like 20 years for, you know, content, you know, feed optimization and advertising optimization.And obviously many, you know, financial services. You know, many, many, many companies, many different sectors have been doing this. And so it's like one of these things, it's like, it's not a, it's not a single thing. Like it's, it's like, it's like layers, right? Yeah. Um, and, and the layers arrive at different paces and, but they kind of build up.swyx: Yeah.Marc: Uh, they kind of build up over time and then, and then, yeah. And then look, in retrospect, it was 2017 was kind of the, you know, the key, the key point with the trans transformer and then. And then as you guys know, there was this really weird like four year period where it's like the, the transformer existed and then it was just like,swyx: let's go.Yeah.Marc: Well, but, but it was just, but, but between 2020, but between 2017 and 2021, I mean, that was the era of which like companies like Google had internal chat Botts, but they weren't letting anybody use them.swyx: Yeah.Marc: Right. And then, you know, and then OpenAI developed Chat GT or GPT two, and then they told everybody, this is way too dangerous to deploy.Right. Yeah. You know, we can't possibly let normal people, normal people use this thing. And then you, you guys, I'm sure remember AI Dungeon, um mm-hmm. So the o for, there was like a year where like the only way for a normal person to use GP T three was in, in AI dungeon.Alessio: Yeah.Marc: And so you, you, we would do this, you'd go in there and you'd pretend to play Dungeons and Dragons.In reality, you're just trying to talk to talk to GPT. And so there was this, you know, there was this long, you know, and I, you know, the big, big companies, you know, big companies are cautious and, you know, the big companies were cautious. It, it, by the way, it took open ai. You know, they, they, they talk about this, it took open AI time to actually adjust, you know, kind of re redirect their researchswyx: path.I, I think, uh, let say Rosewood, right? Uh, the, the dinner that founded OpenAI was right there.Marc: Right, right. But that, that dinner would've taken place in 20swyx: 18Marc: 19. The formation of OpenAI Uhhuh as late as 2018.swyx: Uh, uh, sorry. Uh, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm wrong. Probably It should be 20. Yeah. They just celebrated a 10 year anniversary, so it it is 2025.Yeah, so, so 2015?Marc: Yeah. 2015. Yeah. 2015. But then, uh, um, Alec Radford did G PT one in what, probablyswyx: mm-hmm. 17, 18,Marc: yeah. 17, 18. So it, yeah. For, and then, and then they didn't really, and then GPT three was what? 2020? 2020.swyx: 2020.Marc: Because that became copilot immediately. Even open ai, which has been, you know, the leader of, of this thing in the last decade, you know, e even they had to adapt and, and, and lean into the new thing.And so. Um, yeah, I, I think it's just this process of basically sort of wave after wave layer after layer, you know, building on itself. And then you kind of get these catalytic moments where, where the whole thing pops and, and obviously that's what's happening now.swyx: Is it useful to think about will there be any ai, winter?‘cause there's always these patterns. Like, is this, in the summer is something I constantly think about because do I get, do I just like. Just get endlessly hyped and just trust that I will only be early and never wrong or right. Well, are we, will there be a winter?Marc: So there's something about, say the following.There's something about AI that has led to this repeated pattern. Um, and, and, and you guys know this,swyx: it's summer, winter, summer,Marc: winter, summer, winter, summer, winter. And it goes back 80 years. Yeah. 80 years. Uh, so the original neural network paper was 1943. Right. Which is, which is amazing. Uh, that it was, it was far back that long.And then there was you, if you guys have ever talked about this on your show, but there was this, uh, there was a big, uh, there was an a GI conference at Dartmouth University in 1950. 55. 55, yeah. And they got a NSF grant to, uh, for the, all the AI experts at the time to spend the summer together. And they figured if they had 10 weeks together, they could get a GI, uh, at the other end.And they got their, by the way, they got the grant, they got the 10 weeks and then, you know, 1955, you know. No, no. A GI. And like I said, I, I lived through the eighties version of this where there was a big, a big boom and a crash. And so, so there is this thing, and there, there is something about AI that causes the people in the field, I would say, to become both excessively utopian and excessively apocalyptic.Um, and, and it's probably on both sides of like the, the, the boom bus cycle. You, you kind of see that play out. Having said that, I think what's actually happened is like just, and you know, and we now know in retrospect like an enormous amount of technical progress that built up over time. And like for, for example, we now know that neural network is the correct architecture.And I, I will tell you like there was a 60 year run where that was like a, you know, or even 70 years or that was controversial. And, and we now know that that's the case. And so we, we now, you know, everything we're building on today just sort of derives from the original idea in 1943. And so, so in retrospect, we, we now know that like, these, these guys are right.They, they, you know, they would get the timing wrong and they thought, you know, capabilities would arrive faster, or they were, it could be turned into businesses sooner or whatever, but like, they were fundamentally, the, the scientists who worked on this over the course of decades were fundamentally correct about what they were doing.And, and the, and the payoff from, from, from all their work is happening now. And so, so the way I think about what's happening is basically, I think, I think about basically the, the, the period we're in right now is it's, I call it 80 year overnight success, right? Which is like, it's an overnight success.‘cause it's like bam, you know, chat, GPT hits and then, and then oh one hits, and then, you know, open claw hits and like, you know, these are open, these are, these are like overnight, like radical, overnight transformative successes, but they're drawing on an 80 year sort of wellspring backlog, you know, of, of, of, of ideas and thinking it's not just that it's all brand new, it's that it's an unlock of all of these decades of like very serious, hardcore research.Um, and thinking, and look, there were AI researchers who spent their entire lives. They got their PhD. They, they worked for, they've researched for 40 years. They retired in a lot of cases, they passed away and they never actually saw it work.swyx: Yeah. It's all sad.Marc: It is. It is sad. It's sad. Knewswyx: Jeff Hinton was like the last guy.Marc: Yeah. Yeah. Well, there were the guys, uh, was a guy, Alan Newell. I mean, there's tons of John McCarthy. You know, John McCarthy was like one of the inventors in the field. He's one of the guys who organized the Dartmouth Conference and you know, he taught at Stanford for 40 years. Wow. And passed, you know, passed away, I don't know, whatever, 10, 10 years ago or something.Never, never actually go. Got to see it happen. But like, it is amazing in retrospect, like, these guys were incredibly smart and they worked really hard and they were correct. So anyway, so then it's like, okay, you know, say history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. It's like, okay, does that mean that there's gonna be another, like, you know, basically boom buzz cycle.And I, I will tell you, like, let, like in a sense, like yes, everything goes through cycles and, you know, people get overly enthusiastic and overly depressed and there's, there's a time, there's a timelessness to that. Having said that, there's just no question. Um, so the form, the foremost dangerous words in investing this time are, this time is different.Do you know the 12 most dangerous words investing? No. The four most d foremost dangerous words in investing are this time is different. Yeah. Um, the 12 most dangerous words. And so like, I'll tell you what's different. Like now it's working like, like there's just no, I mean, look, there's just no question.And by the way, I, I'll just give you guys my take. Like L LLMs, like from, from basically the Chad G PT moment through to spring of 25. I think you could still, I think well intention, well, and of. Form skeptics could still say, oh, this is just pattern completion. And oh, these things don't really understand what they're doing.And you know, the hall hallucination rates are way too high. And, you know, this is gonna be great for creative writing and creating, you know, Shakespeare and so sonnets and, you know, as, as rap lyrics or whatever, like, it's gonna be great and all that stuff, but we're not gonna be able to harness this to make this relevant in, you know, coding or in medicine or in law or in, you know, you know, kind of feels that, you know, kind of really, really matter.And I think basically it was the reasoning breakthrough. It, it was oh one and then R one that basically answered that question basically said, oh no, we're gonna be able to actually turn this into something that's gonna work in the real world. And, and then obviously the coding breakthrough over the, over basically the coding breakthrough that kind of catalyzed over the holiday break was kind of the third step in that.Mm-hmm. Where you're just like, alright, if, if, you know, if Linus Tova is saying that the AI coding is no better than he is like. Like, that's, that's never happened before. That's theswyx: benchmark.Marc: Yeah. That's never happened before. And so now we know that it's, it's gonna sweep through coding and, and then, and then we, we know, you know, we know that if it's gonna work in coding, it's gonna work in everything else.Right. It's just then, because that's, that's like, that's like, that's like the hardest in many ways. That's the hardest example. And how everything else is gonna be a, a derivative of that. And then on top of that, we just got the agent breakthrough, you know, with Open Claw, which is fantastic. Which is amazing and incredibly powerful.And then we just got the, the, um, the auto research, uh, you know, the, the self-improvement. You know, we're now into the self-improvement breakthrough. And so the, so the way I think about it is we've had four fundamental breakthroughs in functionality, l OMS reasoning, uh, agents, um, and then, uh, and, and then now RSI, um, and, and they're all actually working.Um, and so I'm, I'm just, as you like, you can tell I'm jumping outta my shoes. Like, like this is, like this is it like this, this is the culmination of 80 years worth of worth of work, and this is the time it's becoming real.Alessio: Yeah.Marc: I, I'm completely convinced.Alessio: I think the anxiety that people feel is like during the transistor era, yet Mors law, and it's like, all right, we understand why these things are getting better.We understand the physics of it. Yeah. With ai, it's. It's so jagged in like the jumps where like, like you said, it's like in three months you have like this huge jump like, and people are like, well this can keep happening. Right? But then it keeps happening,Marc: it'll keep happening.Alessio: And so like how do you think about also timelines of like what's we're building?I think we always have this question with guests, which is like, you know, should you spend time building harness for a model versus like the next model just gonna do it one shot in the lead space. Right. And how does that inform, like how you think about the shape of the technology? You know, you talk about how it's a new computing platform.If you have a computing platform, then like every six months it like drastically changes in what it looks like. It's hard to build companies on top of it.Marc: Yeah. So, so a couple things. So one is like, look, the, the Moore's law was what we now call a scaling law. Like Moore's Law was a scaling law and for your younger viewers, more Moore's Law was every chip chip chips either get twice as powerful or twice as cheap every, every 18 months.And that, and that and that, you know, that it's gotten more complicated in the last few years. But like that, that was like the 50 year trajectory of, of, of the computer industry. And then, and then by the way, and that's what took the mainframe computer from a $25 million current dollar thing into, you know, the phone in your pocket being, you know, a million times more powerful than that.Like that, you know, for, for 500 bucks. And so that, that was a scaling law. And then, and then, and then key to any scaling law, including Moore's Law and the AI scaling laws is, you know, they're not really laws, right? They're, they're, they're, they're predictions, but when they work, they become self-fulfilling predictions because they, they, they, they, they set a benchmark and, and then the entire industry, right?All the smart people in the industry kind of work to make sure that, that, that actually happens. And so they, they kind of motivate the breakthroughs that are required to, to keep that going. And, and in and in chips, that was a 50 year, that was a 50 year run. Right. And it, it was amazing. And it's still happening in, in some areas of, of chips.I think the same thing is happening with the, the core scaling laws. The core scaling laws. In, in, in ai, you know, they're, they're not really laws, but like they, they are basically. There are predictions and then they're motivating catalysts for the research work that is required to be. And, and, and, and by the way, also the investment, uh, dollars, um, uh, you know, required to basically keep, you know, keep the curves going and, and look, it, it is, it's gonna be complicated and it's gonna be variable and they're, you know, there're gonna be walls that are gonna look like they're fast approaching, and then they're gonna be, you know, engineers are gonna get to work and they're gonna figure out a way to punch through the walls.And obviously that's, you know, that's been happening a lot, you know, and then look, there's gonna be times when it looks like the walls have, you know, the, the, the laws have petered out and then they're gonna, they're gonna pick up again and surge and then, and then, and then it, it appears what's happening to the eyes is there's not multiple, you know, multiple scaling laws.Um, there's multiple areas of improvement. And, and I think, you know, I don't know how many more there are already yet to be discovered, but there are probably some more that we don't know about yet. You know, they, like, for example, there's probably some scaling law around, um, world models and robotics that we don't fully understand, you know, kind of acquisition of data at scale in the real world that we don't fully understand yet.So that, that, that one will probably kick in at some point here. There's a bunch of really smart people working on that. Um, and so, yeah, I, I think the expectation is that, that, you know, the, the scaling laws generally are gonna continue. Yeah. The, the pace of improvement will continue to move really fast.Um. To your question on like what to build. So, uh, I'm a complete believer the scaling laws are gonna continue. I'm a complete believer the capabilities are gonna keep getting amazing, um, you know, leaps and bounds. Uh, the part where I kind of part ways a little bit with how, what I would describe as the AI purists, um, you know, which is, which I would characterize as like the people who are.In many ways, the smartest people in the field, but also the people who spend their entire life, like at a lab, um, and have, have, I would say, have very little experience in the outside world. Um, the, the, the nuance I would offer is the outside world of 8 billion people and institutions and governments and companies and economic systems and social systems is really complicated.Um, and, um, and doesn't, you know, it it 8 billion people making collective decisions on planet Earth is not a simple process of like, just like you see this happening now. It's like a bunch of AI CEOs have this thing, which is just like, well, there's just this, they just all have this kind of thing when they talk in public where they're just like, well, there's these, these obvious set of things that so society to do.Alessio: Mm-hmm.Marc: And then they're like, society's not doing any of those things. Right. And it's like, how can society not, you know, what, whatever their theory is, how can society not see x, y, Z? Mm-hmm. And the answer is, well, society is number one. There's no single society, it's like 8 billion people. And they like all have a voice, and they all have a vote, like at the end of the day of how they, they react to change.And then, you know, it just like, it's just human reality is just really complicated and messy. Um, and, and, and so the specific answer to your question is like, as usual, it depends. Um, you know, it, it depends. Look, pe there's no question people are gonna, like, there's no question they're gonna be companies.It's already happening. There are companies that think that they're building value on top of the models and then they're just gonna get blissed by the, by the next model. There's no question that's happening. But I think there's no question also that just the process of adaptation of any technology into the real and into the real messy world of humanity is, is just going to be messy and complicated.It's, it's not going to be simple and straightforward. It's gonna be messy and complicated. And there are gonna be a lot of companies and a lot of products, um, uh, and in, in fact entire industries that are gonna get built to, to, to basically actually help all of this technology actually reach real people.Alessio: The amount of capital going into these companies, I mean, Dario talked about it on the Door Cash podcast and Door Cash was like, why don't you just buy 10 x more GPUs? And he is like, because I'm gonna go bankrupt if the model doesn't exactly hit the, the performance level. How do you think about that?Also as a risk on, you know, you guys are investors, open AI and thinking machines and world apps. It seems like we're leveraging the scaling loss at a pretty high rate, right? Like how comfortable, I guess, do you feel with the downside scenario, like, and say like things Peter out, you think you can kind of like restructure uh, these build outs and uh, you know, capital investments.Marc: Yeah. So should start by saying, so I live through the.com crash, um, and I can tell you stories for hours about the.com crash and it was horrible. No, it was awful. It was, it was, it was apocalyptic by the way. The, a lot of the.com crash was actually at the time, it was actually a telecom crash. It was a bandwidth crash.Like the, the thing that actually crashed, that wiped out all the money with the tele, the telecom companies.swyx: GlobalMarc: crossing. Global, global, yeah.swyx: I'm from Singapore and they, they laid so much cable o over over our oceans.Marc: Actually there was a scaling law in the.com. Era. And it was literally the, the US Commerce Department put out a report in 1996 and they said internet traffic was doubling every quarter.Um, and, and actually in 1995 and 1996, internet traffic actually did double every quarter. And so that became the scaling law. And so what all these telecom entrepreneurs did was they went out and they raised money to build fiber, anticipating that the demand for bandwidth is gonna keep doubling every quarter.Doubling every quarter though is like, you know, grains of chess and the chessboard, like at some point the numbers become extremely large. Right. And, and, and it really, and really what happened was the internet. The internet by the way, continuously kept growing basically since inception. And it's, you know, it's, it's continuously grown.It's never shrunk. And it's grown really fast compared to anything else. Mm-hmm. You know, in, in, in human history. But it wasn't doubling every quarter as of 19 98, 19 99. And so there was this gap in the expectation of what they thought was a scaling law versus reality. And that's actually what caused the.com crash, which was the, it they, they way over companies like global crossing way overbuilt fiber, which is sort of the, and by the way, fiber, telecom equipment, you know, so all the, all the networking gear, you know, and then, and then by the way, the actual physical data centers, like that was the beginning of the, of the, of the data center build and then, and the data center overbuild.And so you had that, but it was, it was literally, I think it was like $2 trillion got wiped out, right? It was like Jesus, it was like a big, it was. And by the way, the other, the other subtlety in it was the internet companies themselves never really had any debt. ‘cause tech, tech companies generally don't run on debt, but the telecom companies run on debt.Physical infrastructure companies run on debt. And so the companies like Global Crossing not just raise a lot of equity, they also raise a lot of debt. So they're highly levered. And so then you just do the thing. It's just like, okay, you have a highly levered thing where you're, you're just over, you're overbuilding capacity.Demand is growing, but not as fast as you hoped. And then boom, bankrupt. Right. And, and then it, and then it's like they say about the hotel industry, which is, it's always the third owner of a hotel that makes money. It has to go bankrupt twice, right? You have to wash out all of the over optimistic exuberance before it gets to actually a stable state.And then it makes money. So by the way, all of those data centers and all of those, all the fiber that they're in use, it's all in use today. Yeah. But 25 years later. But it, it, it took, and actually the elapsed time was, it took 15 years. It took 15 years from 2000 to 2015 to actually fill, fill up all that capacity.The cautionary warning is the, the overbuild can happen. Um, and, and, and, and, you know, you, you get into this thing where basically everybody, everybody who basically has any sort of institutional capital, it's like, wow. It's just, I, I don't know how to invest in these crazy software things. For sure I can put build data centers and for sure I can buy GPUs that I can deploy, you know, compute grids and, and all these things.Um, and so, you know, if you're a pessimist, you could look at this and you could say, wow, this is like really set up to be able to basically replicate, you know, what we went through, what we went through in 2000. Obviously that would be bad. The counter argument, which is the one I I agree with, which is the counter on, on the other side is a couple things.One is the companies that are investing all the, the companies that are investing the money are like the bluest chip of companies. And so back, back, back in the, in the do, like Global Crossing was like a, it was like an entrepreneur. It was like a, a new venture, but like the money that's being deployed now at scale is Microsoft, and, you know, and Amazon and Google, Facebook and Facebook and Nvidia and, you know, these, these, these, and, and now you know, by the way, open ai philanthropic, which are now at like, you know, really serious size, um, you know, as companies with, you know, very serious revenue.These are very large scale companies with like, lots, lots of cash, lots of debt capacity that they've, they've never used. And so th this is institutional in a way that, that really wasn't at the time. And then the other is, at least for now, every dollar that's being put into anything that results in a running GPU is being turned into revenue right away.Like so, and you guys know this, like everybody's starved for capacity, everybody's starved for compute capacity and then, you know, all the associated things, memory and, and, and interconnected and everything else. Um, data center space. And so e every dollar right now that's being put into the ground is turning into revenue.And, and it, and in fact, I actually think there's an interesting thing happening, which is because everybody starve for capacity, the models that we actually have that we can use today are inferior versions of what we would have if not for the supply constraints. That's true. Um, if Right pose a hypothetical universe in which GPUs were 10 times cheaper and 10 times more plentiful mm-hmm.The models would be much better. ‘cause you would just allocate a lot more money to training and you'd just build better models and they would be better. Um, and so we're, we're actually getting the sandbag version of the technology.swyx: Yeah. No. Everything we use is quantized because the, the labs have to keep the, the full versions,Marc: right?swyx: LikeMarc: we're not even getting the good stuff.swyx: Yeah.Marc: But, but getting the good stuff, it's, it's just, even if technical progress stops. Once there's like a much bigger build of like GPU manufacturing capacity and memory, you know, all, all the things that have to happen in the course of the next five or 10 years.Once it happens, even the current technology is gonna get, gonna get much better. And then as you know, like there's just like a million ways to use this stuff. Like there's just like a million use cases for this. Mm-hmm. Like, it, it, you know, this isn't just sending packets across a, a thing, whatever, and hoping that people find something to do with it.This is just like, oh, we apply intelligence into every domain of human activity. And then it works like incredibly well. Yeah. Um. Here's what I know, here's what I know. Um, in the next three or four year, it's like somewhere between three or four years out, basically everything is selling out. So like the, the entire supply chain is, is, is, is sold out or, or, or selling out.And so there, there's no, like, we're just gonna have like chronic supply shortage for, you know, for years to come. Um, there's going to be a response from the market that's gonna result in an enormous, you know, it's happening now. An enormous flood of investment in a new fab capacity and ev you know, every, everything else to be able to do that, at some point the supply chain constraints will unlock, you know, at least to some degree that will be another accelerant to industry growth when that happens.‘cause the products will get better and everything will get cheaper. Um, and so, so I know that's gonna happen. I know that, you know, the deployments, you know, the, the actual use cases are like really compelling. And then, like I said, you know, with reasoning and agents and so forth, like, I know they're just gonna get like much, much better from here.And so I, I, I know the capabilities are like really real and serious. I also know that the technical progress is not going to stop. It. It, it is excel. It is, is accelerating. Like the, the breakthroughs are are tremendous. I mean, even just month over month, the breakthroughs are really dramatic. And so, you know, I think if you were a cynic and there, there are cynics, you can look at 2000, you can find echoes.But I can't even imagine betting it that this is gonna like somehow disappoint and, you know, at least for years to come, I think it would be essentially suicidal to make that bet. Yeah. Um, it was that Michael Burry, uh, uh, that'sswyx: anMarc: interesting guy, huh? We'll pick on a guy. We'll pick, let's pick on one guy.We'll pick. Well ‘cause he did, he he came out with, it was, it was the, heswyx: doesn't mind.Marc: It was the Nvidia short. Right. He came with the Nvidia short. And then if you guys probably talked about this, which is the, the analysis now that like the current models are getting better faster at such a rate that if you are running an Nvidia, if you're running an Nvidia inference chip today, that's three years old, you're making more money on it today than you did three years ago because the pace of improvement of the software is, is faster than the, the, the depreciation cycle, the chip.And then my understanding is Google is running. I don't if they've, I don't know exactly what, uh, these are rumors that I've heard or maybe it's public, but, um, I think Google's running very old TPUs, very profitably. Ference. Yeah. And very profit and very profitably. Yeah. Um, and so, so it actually turns out, as far as I can tell, it's actually the opposite of the Beery thesis is actually.He was actually 180 degrees wrong. It's actually the, the, the, the old Nvidia chips are getting more valuable, which is something that's like literally never happened before. Like it's never been the case that you have an older model chip that becomes more valuable, not less valuable. And that, and again, that's an expression of the just ferocious pace of software progress.Ferocious pace of capability payoff. Yeah. Uh, that you're getting on the other side of this. And so I just, the idea of betting against that, like.swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Well, one ofMarc: my, it seems like an invitation to get your face ripped up.swyx: One of my early hits was like modeling the lifespan of the H 100 and h two hundreds and, and going like, you know, usually they advise like four to seven years and it was, you know, maybe you sort of realistically haircut cut it down to two to three.Yeah. But actually it's going up and not down. Yeah. And, and uh, that's, I mean that's, I think that's the dream. Uh, we are finding utilization and I think utilization solves all problems. Like, you can, you can find use, use cases for even like the poor, like even memory, we're having a shortage. Right. And, and even like the, the shittier versions of, of memory that we do have, we are finding use cases for it.So like That's great.Marc: Yeah.Alessio: How, how important is open source AI and kinda like edge inference in a world in which you have three years of supply crunch. Like, do you think in the, like, you know, if you fast forward like five years, like how do you think about inference, uh, in the data center versus at the edge?Marc: Well, so just to start, yeah. So I think, I think open source is very important for a bunch of reasons. I think edge, edge inference is very important for a bunch of reasons. I, I think just practically speaking, if we're just gonna have fundamental construc, supply crunches for the next, I mean, you, you guys know if you just project forward demand over the next three years, right?Yeah. Relative to supply, one of the, its main predictions you can do is what's gonna, what, what's gonna happen to the cost of, of inference in the core, uh, over the next three years? And like, it may rise dramatically, right? Like, so, so what is, and then is, is, you know, like the, the, the big model competition are subsidizing heavily right now.Right? Right. And so, so what's the, what will be the average person's, you know, per day, per month token cost, you know, three years from now to do all the things that they want to do. And I, I don't know, it's gonna. I mean, I have, you guys probably have friends, I have friends today who are paying a thousand dollars a day for open claw, for claw tokens to run open claw.Right? And so, okay. $30,000 a month. Right? And, and by the way, those, those friends have like a thousand more ideas of the things that they want their claw to do, right? Yeah. And so you, you could imagine there, there's like latent demand of up to, I don't know, five or $10,000 a day of, of, of tokens for a fully deployed, you know, per personal agent.Uh, and obviously consumers can't pay that, right? And so, so, but it gives you a sense of the fu of the fu of the future scope of demand, right? And so, so even, even if there's a 10 x improvement in price performance, that still, you know, goes to a hundred dollars a day, which is still way beyond what people can pay.Mm-hmm. So there's just gonna be like. Ferocious to me, by the way. The agent thing, the other interesting thing is I think the agent thing, so up until now, a lot of the constraints of GGPU constraints, I think the agent thing now also translates into CPU constraints. Mm-hmm. Right?swyx: CPU memory.Marc: Yes. CPU memory, right?And so, like the entire chip ecosystem is just gonna get wait,swyx: wait for network constraints, that that will be the killer.Marc: It's all bottleneck potentially for years. And so, so I, I think that Brad, and, and I think it's actually possible, I mean, generally inference costs are gonna keep coming down, but I think the, let's put it this way, the rate of decline, I think may level out here for a bit because of these supply constraints.And then at some point, maybe the lab stops subsidizing so much and that, that, that again, will be, be an issue. And so there's just gonna be so much more demand for inference than, than can be satisfied. Um, you know, kind of with the centralized model. And then, and then, you know, you guys know this, but like all the, just the dramatic, I mean just the dramatic innovations that have happened in the Apple silicon to be able to do, uh, inferences, it's quite amazing the level of effort being put.Like the open source guys are putting incredible effort into getting, you know, this recurring pattern where the big model will never run on a pc, and then six months later mm-hmm. Oh, it runs in a pc, right? It's like amazing. And there's very smart people working on that. So there's all that. And then look, there's also, you know.There's also like other, there's other motivators. There's other motivators which is just like, okay, how much trust are the big centralized model providers? You know, how much trust are they building in the market versus, you know, how much are, you know, at least for, in certain cases with some people, for certain use cases, people being like, well, I'm not willing to just like, turn everything over.So there, there, there's all the trust issues. Um, by the way, there's also just like straight up price optimization. There's many uses of AI where you don't need Einstein in the cloud. You just need like a, a a, a smart local model. There's also performance issues where you want, you know, you want, you know, you're gonna want your doorknob to have an AI model in it.Right. You know, to be able to, you know, do, um, you know, to be able to do access control. Um, obviously like everything with a chip is gonna have an AI model in it. Mm-hmm. And it, a lot of those are gonna be local. Um, and so, yeah. No, like I think, I think you're gonna have ti and then you're gonna, by the way, also wearable devices, you know, you don't wanna do a complete round trip.You want, you know, you, whatever your smart devices are, you want it to be like super low latency. Yeah.swyx: The question, do we care who makes it? Yeah. One of the biggest news this week was the collapse of AI two, the Allen Institute. Mm-hmm. One of the actual American open source model labs. Yeah. Um, and, uh, I'm not that optimistic on, on American open source.Yeah. Like you, you guys invested in MIS trial and MIS trial's doing extremely well outside of China. That's about it.Marc: Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. I look, I, number one, I do think we care. Uh, I do think we, I do think we care who makes it. Um, I would say this, the, the, the, the previous presidential administration wanted to kill it in the us Oh yeah.They wanted to drown in the bathtub. Um, and so they wanted to kill it. So at least we have a government now that actually like, actually wants it wants it to happen. And youswyx: earned to councilMarc: and Yeah. And the new and the P pcast. Yeah. So the, the, you know, this admin for whatever other political issues people have, which are many, you know, this administration has, I think a very enlightened view and in particular an enlightened view on AI and in particular on open source ai.Uh, and so they're very supportive. Um, my read is the Chi. The Chinese have a very, the various Chinese companies have a very specific reason to do open source, which is, they, they, they don't fundamentally, they don't think they can sell commercial, uh, AI outside of China right now. And or at least specifically not, not in the US for a combination of reasons.And so they, they kind of view, I think, open source AI as a bit of a loss leader against basically domestic, uh, you know, paid, paid services. And then kind of an, you know, kind of an ancillary products. You know, they're, they're very excited about it, by the way. I think it's great. I think it's great that they're doing it.Um, you know, I think Deeps seek was like a gift to the world. Um, I think. The great thing about open source, open source, the, the, the impact of open source is felt two ways. One is you, you get the software for free, but the other is you get to learn how it works, right? And so like the paper, the paper, the paper and, and the code, right?And the code. And so, like, for example, I thought this was amazing. So open comes out with L one and it's an amazing technical breakthrough, and it's just like, absolutely fantastic. But of course they don't explain how it works in detail. And then of course they hide the, they hide the reasoning traces, right?And, and then, and then, and then everybody's like, okay, this is great, but like, who's gonna be able to replicate this? Are other people gonna be able to do this? You know, is their secret sauce in there? And then our one comes out and it's just like, there's the code and there's the paper, and now the whole world knows how to do it.And then, you know, three months later, every other AI model is, is adding reasoning. And so, so you get this kind of double, like even if the Chinese models themselves are not the models that get used, the education that's taken place to the rest of the world, the information diffusion, you know, is incredibly powerful.So that happens and then, I don't know. We'll, we'll see. You know, there are a bunch of American, you know, open source, you know, ai, uh, model companies. I mean, look, there's gonna be tremendous, you know, there already is. There's, you know, there's gonna be tre there's tremendous competition, uh, among the primary model companies.You know, there's, depending on how you count, there's like four or five, you know, big co model companies now that are, you know, kind of neck and neck, uh, in different ways. Um, uh, you know, and, and, and, um, you know, and then obviously Bo Bo both X and then MetAware involved are, you know, both have huge, you know, huge attempts to, you know, kind of, to kind of leapfrog underway.And then you've got, you know, a whole fleet of startups, new companies, including a whole bunch that we're backing, that are, you know, trying to come out with different approaches. And then you've got whatever it is. I don't know how, how many, how many, like main line foundation model companies are there in China at this point?It's probably six. It'sswyx: five Tigers is what they call it. Yeah. Uh, Quinn is in questionable because there's change in leadership,Marc: right?swyx: Yeah.Marc: But that, does that include, that includes like Moonshot,swyx: yes. Can deep seek, uh, uh, ZI, um, Quinn oh one is in there.Marc: Right. And then, um, and by dance and, and then you see,swyx: ance would be like the next tier ance.They weren't as prominent. They weren't, didn't haveMarc: a leading. Yeah. But they, you at least, you know, ance is very inspiring and presumably they have more stuff coming and Tencent probably has more stuff coming and, and so forth. And so, so, so like, look, here, here would be a thing you can anticipate, which is there are not these markets, there are not going to be between the US and China right now, there's like a dozen primary foundation model companies that are like at scale, at, at some level of a critical mass.It's not gonna be a dozen in three years, right? Like, it just because these industries don't bear a dozen, it's, it's gonna be three or you know, there's gonna be three or four big winners or maybe one or two big winners. And so there's gonna be like a whole bunch of those guys that are gonna have to figure out alternate strategies.Um, and I think like open source is one of those strategies. And so I, I think you could see like a whole, i, I, I think the questions like, who's gonna do open source? I think that could change really fast. I, I think that, that, that's a very dynamic thing. I think it's very hard to predict what happens. And, and I think it's very important.swyx: NVIDIA's doing a lot.Marc: Well, I was gonna say. Well, exactly. And then you're got Nvidia and then, and then, you know, just to, again, indu, there's an old thing in business strategy, which is called, uh, commoditize Compliments. Commoditize the compliment. That's right. And so if your Jensen is just kind of obvious, of course, you wanna commoditize the software.Yeah. And he's, and to his enormous credit, he's putting enormous resources behind that. And so maybe it, maybe it's literally Nvidia and I think that would be great.Alessio: Yeah. Uh, narrative violation to European projects, uh, in the, uh, damn.swyx: I'm hosting my, uh, Europe, uh, conference soon. And I got both of them.Alessio: They got us.They got us. MarkMarc: finished. They got us, us. Well, wait a minute. Where was Peter? So where was Steinberger when he did? In AustriaAlessio: was, yeah, yeah, yeah.Marc: He was in what? He was in Vienna. Oh, he was in Vienna. And then where is he now?swyx: Uh, he's moving to sf.Marc: Okay. Okay. Alright. Okay, there we go. And then, yeah, the PI guy, right?The PI guys are European.swyx: Yeah, they're also, they're buddies inAlessio: Australia. Mario's also there. Yeah.Marc: Right. And are they, yeah, they haven't announced yet. Any sort of change changed or have theyAlessio: No, they're, they have a company there.Marc: Okay. Got, okay. Good.Alessio: Good, good,good.Alessio: Um,Marc: yeah, good.swyx: Anyways, I think pie and open cloud very important software things and, and I just wanted you to just go off on what you think.Marc: Yeah. So I think in co the, the combination of the two of them I think is one of the 10 most important softwares. Openswyx: Claw got all the attention, but Right. Talk about pie,Marc: pi pie's, kind of the Yeah. PI's, PI's kind of the architectural breakthrough for those of us who are older. There was this whole thing that was very important in the world of software basically from like 1970 to, I don't know, it still is very important, but like 19, from 1973 to like basically the creation of Linux, which is basically this, this thing used to call like the Unix mindset.Like so, so, ‘cause there were all these different, you know, theories. There are all these different operating systems and mainframes and, and then you know, all these windows and Mac and all these things. And then there was this, but kind of behind it all was this idea of kind of the Unix mindset. And the Unix mindset was this thing where basically you don't have these, like, like in the old days, like, like the operating system that like made the computer industry really work, like in the 1960s mm-hmm.Was this thing called o os 360, which was this big operating system that IBM developed that was supposed to basically run everything. And it was this like giant monolithic architecture in the sky. It was like a, you know, it was like a giant castle. Um, of software. And, and by the way, it worked really well and they were very successful with it.But like, it was this huge castle in the sky, but it was this thing, it was almost unapproachable, which is like, you had to be kind of inside IBM or very close to IBM. And you had to really understand every aspect, how the system worked. And then the, the Unix sky is originally out of at and t and then out out of Berkeley, um, you know, came out and they said, no, let's have a completely different architecture.And the way architecture's gonna work is we're gonna have, we're gonna have a, a prompt and, and a, and a shell. And then, and then we're gonna, all, all the functionality is gonna be in the form of these discreet modules, and then you're gonna be able to chain the modules together. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so like the, the, the op, it's almost like the operating, operating system itself is gonna be a programming language.Um, and then that led led to the, the, the sort of centrality of the shell. Um, and then that led to sort of, uh, you know, basically chaining together Unix tools. And then that led to the emergence of these, these scripting languages like Pearl, where you, you could basically kind of very easily do this, and then the shells got more sophisticated and then, and then, and then look like, you know, that, that, that number one, that worked and that, that was the world I grew up in.Like I was, I was a Unix guy. You know, sort of from, call it 1988 to, you know, kind of all, all the way through my work and it worked really well. It, it's in the background, um, you know, nor normal people don't need to, didn't need to necessarily know about it, but like, if you were doing like system architecture, application development, you, you, you knew all about it.Um, and then, you know, it's been in the background ever since. And, you know, look, your Mac still has a Unix shell, you know, kind of in there, and your iPhone still has a Unix shell kind of buried in there somewhere. So they're kind of in there. And then, you know, the Windows shell is kind of a, you know, sort of a weird derivative of that.But, um, you know, but look, the inter, the internet runs on Unix, um, and that smartphones, actually, both iOS and Android are Unix derivatives. And so, you know, kind of Unix did end up winning. But, but anyway, and then we just started taking that for granted. And then, and then so, so basically the, the way I think about what happened with Pie and then with Open Claw is basically what those guys figured out is, I always say the, the great breakthroughs are obvious in retrospect, right?Which is the best kind, the best kind. They weren't obvious at the time or somebody else would've done them already. Um, and so there is a, like a real conceptual leap, but then you look at it sort of the backwards looking and you're just like, oh, of course. Mm-hmm. Like the, the, to me those are always the best breakthroughs.Well, actually language models themselves are like that. It's just like, oh, next token completion. Oh, of course.swyx: Yeah. What other objective mattered?Marc: Yeah, exactly. But, but like it, right. But she's even saying it wasn't obvious until somebody actually did it. Right. And so the conceptual breakthrough is real and deep and powerful and, and very important.And so the way I think about pie and olaw is it's basically marrying the, the language model mindset to the un to the Unix, basically shell prompt mindset. And so it's, it's basically this idea that what, what, so what is an agent, right? And as, as, and as you know, like many smart people who have been trying to figure out what an agent is for, for, for decades, and they've had many architectures to build agents and the whole thing.And it turns out what is an agent. So it turns out what we now know is an agent is the following. It's, so it's a language model. And then above that, it's a ba, it's a bash shell. Um, so it's a, it's a Unix shell, and then it's, and then the agent has access, uh, has access to, to the shell. And, you know, hopeful, hopefully in a sandbox, maybe in, maybe in a sandbox.So it's, it's the model. Um, it's the shell. Um, and then it's a fi, it's a file system. Um, and then the state is stored in files. And then, you know, there's the markdown format for the, you know, for, for the files themselves. And then, and then there's basically what in Unix is called Aron job. There's a loop and then there's a heartbeat for the, there's heartbeat and, and the thing basically Wake Wakes up.Wakes up. So it's basically LLM plus shell, plus file system, plus markdown, plus kron. And it turns out that's an agent. And, and, and every part of that, other than the model is something that we already completely know and understand. And in fact, it turns out that like the latent power of the Unix shell is like extraordinary because basically like all, like, there's just like an, there's just enormous latent power in the shell.There's enormous numbers of Unix commands, there's enormous number of command line interfaces into all kinds of things already in the, you know, your entire, I mean your entire, just to start with, your computer runs on a shell. If you're running a Mac or a, or, or a phone, your computer, your computer's running on a shell, uh, already.And so like the full power of your computer is available at the command line level. Um, and then it turns out it's really easy to expose other functions as a command line interface. And so like this whole idea where we need like MCP and these like product mm-hmm. Fancy protocols, whatever, it's like, no, we don't, we just need like a command, command line thing.So that's the architecture. And then it turns out what is your agent? Your agent has a bunch of files starting a file system. And then there's the thing that just like completely blew my mind when I write my head around it as a result of this, which is like, okay. This means your agent is now actually independent of the model that it's running on.Because you can actually swap out a different LLM underneath your agent and your, your agent will change personality somewhat. ‘cause the model is different, but all of the state stored in the files will be retained.swyx: Yeah. Different instruction set, but you just compiledit.Marc: Right, exactly. And it's all right.It's like right. Swapping out a ship and recompiling, but it's, it's still, it's still your agent with all of its memories. Um, and with all of its capabilities. And then by the way, you can also swap out the shell, uh, so you can move it to a different execution environment that is also, is also a b shell, by the way, you can also switch out the file system, right.Uh, and you can, and you can, and you can swap out the, the, the heartbeat for the, the crown framework, the, the loop that the agent framework itself. And so your agent basically is ba basically at the end of the day, it's just. It's just, its files. Um, and then, and then there's of course it a openswyx: call.Marc: Yeah, it's, it's basically, it's, it's just the files.Um, and then by the way, as a consequence of that, the agent and then the agent itself, it turns out a couple important things. So one is it, it's, it, it can migrate itself, right? And so you're, you can instruct your agent, migrate yourself to a different, uh, runtime environment, migrate yourself to a different file system, migrate yourself to a different, you know, swap out the language model.Your agent will do all that stuff for you. And then there's the final thing, which is just amazing, which is the agent is the agent actually has full introspection. It actually, it actually knows about its own files and it could rewrite its own files. Right. Which by the way, is basically no widely deployed software system in history where the, the, the thing that you're using actually has full introspective knowledge of how it itself works and is able to modify itself.Like that, that, I mean, there have been toy systems that have had that, but there, there's never been a widely deployed system that has that capability and then that leads you to the capability. That just like completely blew my mind when I wrap my head around it, which is you can tell the agent to add new functions and features to itself and it can do that.Extend yourself. Yeah. Right? Extend, extend yourself. Like extend yourself. Give yourself a new capability. Right? And so, and so literally it's just like you run into somebody at a party and they're like, oh, I have my open claw, do whatever, connect to my eat, sleep bed, and it gives me better advice and sleep.And you go home at night and you tell your claw, or if they're at the party, by the way, you tell your claw, oh, add this capability to yourself. And your claw will say, oh, okay, no problem. And it'll go out on the internet and it'll figure out whatever it needs and then it'll go out to claw code or whatever.It'll write whatever it needs. And then the next thing you know, it has this new capability. And so you don't even have to, like, you can have it upgrade itself without even having to, without having to do anything other than tell it that you want it to do that. And so anyway, so the, the combination of all this is just, I mean, this is just like a massive, incredible, I mean, it's just incredible.Like if I, if I were, if I were 18, like this is a hundred, this is what I would be spending all of my time on. This is like such an incredible conceptual breakthrough. Yeah. And again, pe people are gonna look at it and they already get this response. People are gonna look at it and they're gonna say, oh, well, where's the breakthrough?‘cause these, the, all of these components were already known before. Mm-hmm. But, but this is the key, the key to the breakthrough was by using all these components that were known before, you get all of the underlying capability of that's buried in there. And so all, and so for example, computer use all of a sudden just kind of falls, trivi, trivial.Of course it's gonna be able to use your computer. It has full access to the shell. Right. And then, and then you just, you, you give it access to a browser, and then you've got the computer and the browser and, and often away it goes. And, and then you've got all the abilities of the browser also. Um, yeah.And so, and so the capability unlock here is profound. My friends who are, you know, deepest into this, are having their claw do like a, like, literally like a thousand things in their lives. They have new ideas every day. They're just like constantly throwing new challenges at the thing. And by the way, it's early and, you know, these are, you know, these are prototypes and there are, you know, as you guys know, there's security issues.Yeah. And, and so, you know, there's a bunch of stuff to be ironed out, but the, the unlock of capability is just incredible.swyx: Yeah.Marc: And I, I have absolutely no doubt that everybody in the world is gonna, is gonna have at least, you know, an agent like this, if not an entire family of agents. And w

Episode SummaryIn this EDUCAUSE episode, Dr. Vanessa Kenon from UTSA, Tonya Bennett from the University of Pennsylvania, and Tim Boltz from Carahsoft get into the tension every higher ed IT leader is sitting with right now - when to move on AI, when to wait for policy, and how to keep curiosity alive before the feds rewrite the rulebook.FeaturingDr. Vanessa Kenon is Associate Vice President for Information Technology at the University of Texas at San Antonio - leading IT through a major university merger while keeping innovation and compliance from pulling the institution in opposite directions.Tonya Bennett is Director of Educational Technology at the University of Pennsylvania - managing the LMS-centered EdTech ecosystem across 12 schools and bringing a master's in law to every AI governance conversation she's in.Tim Boltz leads the Education Vertical at Carahsoft - 17 years in, representing 1,500 manufacturers, and building the cooperative purchasing infrastructure that lets institutions stop waiting on 12-18 month RFQ cycles.Timestamps(1:00) Bold Careers & ServiceNow University - 400+ students served and 150 chasing 25 spots(8:00) TASSCC - how Texas built its own version of EDUCAUSE and why vendor partnerships made it work(11:00) Financial pressures in higher ed - why leaning into IT investment beats pulling back(15:00) Frictionless EdTech at UPenn - one credential, every platform, zero manual steps(20:00) UTSA's experiential learning engine - DoD contractors, RackSpace, Dell & eSports(26:00) Carahsoft's easy button - cooperative purchasing vehicles already live across all 50 states(29:00) AI's legal wild west - agentic AI, IP liability & who's responsible when the agent acts(35:00) Curiosity vs. compliance at UTSA -keeping innovation alive without losing governance(39:00) Closing trends - community over commodity, workforce readiness & what's next for Higher EdListen now: YouTube x Apple x SpotifyWhenever you're ready, there are 3 ways you can connect with TechTables:1.

Mistral has been on an absolute tear - with frequent successful model launches it is easy to forget that they raised the largest European AI round in history last year. We were long overdue for a Mistral episode, and we were very fortunate to work with Sophia and Howard to catch up with Pavan (Voxtral lead) and Guillaume (Chief Scientist, Co-founder) on the occasion of this week's Voxtral TTS launch:Mistral can't directly say it, but the benchmarks do imply, that this is basically an open-weights ElevenLabs-level TTS model (Technically, it is a 4B Ministral based multilingual low-latency TTS open weights model that has a 68.4% win rate vs ElevenLabs Flash v2.5). The contributions are not just in the open weights but also in open research: We also spend a decent amount of the pod talking about their architecture that combines auto-regressive generation of semantic speech tokens with flow-matching for acoustic tokens (typically only applied in the Image Generation space, as seen in the Flow Matching NeurIPS workshop from the principal authors that we reference in the pod).You can catch up on the paper here and the full episode is live on youtube!Timestamps00:00 Welcome and Guests00:22 Announcing Voxtral TTS01:41 Architecture and Codec02:53 Understanding vs Generation05:39 Flow Matching for Audio07:27 Real Time Voice Agents13:40 Efficiency and Model Strategy14:53 Voice Agents Vision17:56 Enterprise Deployment and Privacy23:39 Fine Tuning and Personalization25:22 Enterprise Voice Personalization26:09 Long-Form Speech Models26:58 Real-Time Encoder Advances27:45 Scaling Context for TTS28:53 What Makes Small Models30:37 Merging Modalities Tradeoffs33:05 Open Source Mission35:51 Lean and Formal Proofs38:40 Reasoning Transfer and Agents40:25 Next Frontiers in Training42:20 Hiring and AI for Science44:19 Forward Deployed Engineering46:22 Customer Feedback Loop48:29 Wrap Up and ThanksTranscriptswyx: Okay, welcome to Latent Space. We're here in the studio with our gues co-host Vibh u. Welcome. Thanks. Excited for this one as well as Guillaume and Pavan from Mistral. Welcome. Excited to be here.Guillaume: Thank you.swyx: Pavan, you are leading audio research at Mistral and Guillaume, you're Chief Scientist,Announcing Voxtral TTSswyxHost(00:05) Okay. (00:05) Welcome to Lean Space. (00:06) We're here in the studio with trustee co-hosts, Vibhu. (00:09) Welcome.VibhuHost(00:11) Very excited for this one.swyxHost(00:12) As well as Guillaume and Pavan from Mistral. (00:15) Welcome. (00:16) Excited to be here. (00:17) Thank you for having us.(00:18) Pavan, you are leading audio research at Mistral and Guillaume, you're a chief scientist. (00:23) What are we announcing today where we're coordinating this release with you guys?GuillaumeGuest(00:26) Yeah, so we are releasing Voxtral TTS. So it's our first audio model that generates speech. It's not our first audio model. We had a couple of releases before.(00:35) We had one in the summer that was Voxtral, our first audio model, but it was like a transcription model, ASR. Like a few months later, we released some update on top of this, supporting more languages. Also a lot of table stack features for our customers, context biasing, precision, timestamping and transcription. We also have some real-time model that can transcribe not just at the end of the level.(00:56) You don't need to fill your entire audio file, but that can also come in real-time. And here, this is a natural extension in the audio, so basically speech generation. So yeah, so we support nine languages, and this is a pretty small model, 3D model, so very fast, and also state of the art. Performed at the same level as the base model, but it's much more efficient in terms of cost, and also much, in terms of cost, it's also much cheaper, only a fraction of the cost of our competitors.(01:22) And we are also releasing the work that this model is running.swyx What's the decision factor?Guillaume It's a good question.swyxThere will be more. Yeah, Pavan, any sort of research notes to add on?Architecture and CodecPavan: But it's a novel architecture that we develop inhouse.We traded on several internal architectures and ended up with a auto aggressive flow matching architecture. And also have a new in-house neural audio codec. Which, converts this audio into all point by herds latent [00:02:00] tokens, semantic and acoustic tokens. And yeah, that's that's their new part about this model and we're pretty excited that it's, it came out with such good quality and Jim was mentioning. Yeah, it's a three B model. It's based off of the TAL model that we actually released just a few months back and insert trunk and mainly meant for like the TTS stuff, but they need text capabilities are also there. Yeah.swyx: So there's a lot to cover.I always I love any, anything to do with novel encodings and all those things because I think that's obviously I creates a lot of efficiency, but also maybe bugs that sometimes happen. You were previously a Gemini and you worked on post training for language models, and maybe a lot of people will have less experience with audio models just in general compared to pure language.What did you find that you have to revisit from scratch as you joined this trial and started doing this? At leastUnderstanding vs GenerationPavan: when it comes to, for, I think the, there are two buckets, I guess the audio understanding and audio [00:03:00] generation. The audio understanding, like the walkthrough models that Kim was mentioning that we released earlier.The walkthrough chat that we released I think July last year, and the follow up transcription only, models family that we released in January, that would be one bucket, and the generation is another bucket. I think. You can also treat them as a unified set of models, but currently the approaches are a little different between these two.To your question on how audio is fed to the model? In the understanding model, it's very similar to actually Pixar models that we also released,swyx: yes.Pavan: That'sswyx: amazing.Pavan: It was pretty, I, that was the first project I worked on after joined Misra. It was pretty, pretty nice. And Wtu was very similar in spirit.I guess So we feed audio through an audio encoder similar to images through a vision encoder, and it produces continuous embeddings and which are fed as tokens to the main transformer decoded transformer model. Yeah. On the model output is just text. So on the output side, there is nothing that needs to be done in these kinds of mode.I [00:04:00] guess the interesting part of what the generation stuff is, the output now has to produce audio and. The approach that we have is this neural audio codec, which converts audio into these latent tokens. There is a lot of existing attrition and a lot of models which are based off of this kind of approach.And we took a slightly. A different, design decisions around this. But at the end of the day, the neural audio product converts audio into a 12.5 herdz set of latents. And each latent is, has a semantic token and a set of acoustic tokens. And the idea is that you take these discrete tokens and then feed it on the input side.There's several ways to use this at each frame, but we just sum the embedding. So it's like having key different vocabularies. Combine all of them because they all correspond to one audio frame on the input side. The output side is the interesting part on the output side, the, it's not the, I don't know if it's the most popular, but one.Popular technique is to have a depth transformer [00:05:00] because you have K tokens at each time step, like with a text, you just have one token at each time step. So you just do predict the token from the vocabulary with, yeah, with just, you get probabilityswyx: This's a very straightforward text. VeryPavan: straightforward.swyx: Yeah.Pavan: But if you have K tokens, then the name thing would be to predict all of them in paddle. That doesn't work. At least that doesn't work that well because audio has more entropy. And the, one of the techniques people use is this depth transformer where you you almost have a small transformer, or it can be L-S-T-M-R in as well, but people use transformers and you predict the K tokens in auto aggressive fashion in that.So you have two auto reive things going on.Flow Matching for AudioPavan: So the thing we did differently is in, instead of having this auto aggressive K step prediction, we have a flow matching model. Instead of modeling this as a discrete token set we trained the codec to be both discrete and continuous to have this flexibility.So we did try the discrete stuff too, and which it works well, but the continuous stuff works just better. So yeah, we took this flow matching, so the, it's a flow [00:06:00] matching head, which takes the latent from the main transformer and like kind in fusion, it's denoising, but in this flow matching itself, velocity estimate.So you go from this noise t all the way to there. Audio latent, which corresponds to the 80 millisecond audio and then, which is sent through the work order to get back the 80 millisecond audio frame.swyx: Yeah. Is this the first application of flow matching in audio? Because usually I come across this in the image.Pavan: Yeah. Actually, in some sense there are models flow matching models in audio, but I think this specific combination I could be wrong. There could be somewhat. No. I haven't seen. I haven't seen much work in this, so I think it's novel and a lot of it's just a way bigger community, so they, I think they pioneer a lot of these diffusion flow matching work, and it's interesting to adopt some of the ideas there into audio and,swyx: yeah.Pavan: Yeah, I'm, personally that's the think part which is trying out about. One of more meta point is unlike text, even in vision, I think this is true, but in [00:07:00] audio step literature that there is no.Winner model, yet there is no, okay, this is the way you do things. It's it's still by, I think people are still iterating and figuring out like what's the best overall recipe. I guess the idea. Pretty sure there are models which are also completely end-to-end, like NATO audio. NATO audio, but it's still not come to a convergence point where this, the right way to think that.That also makes. A space pretty exciting to explore.Real Time Voice AgentsVibhu: What are some of the ways to look at it?Vibhu: There are ways where you can do diffusion for audio generation, but if you want like real time generation, that's a big thing with the approach I'm assuming that you took. Yeah. And also like how do you go about evaluating different axes of what you care about, yeah,Pavan: good point. I think we so you can do just flow matching diffusion for the whole audio. We didn't even go down that path because one of the main applications is voice agents and we want real time streaming, and that's the use case. That's not the only use case, but that's one of the primary use cases we want to get to.So we [00:08:00] picked the auto aggressive approach for that. And within the auto aggressive space, again, you can do chunk by chunk or you can do so we picked the. I think at least personally prefer the operations, which are the simplest, and so we try to see, can we just add audio as just another head to our regular transformer decode model because that kind of makes it easier for eventual end-to-end modeling of audio text native modeling.Yeah. And it works pretty well. So I guess we went with that and we tried a little bit, but the flow matching head itself, like we had a discreet. Diffusion kind of approach, which also works well, but the flow matching work better.swyx: I was just curious about how you also think about this overall direction of research.Do you basically, when you work with the audio team, do you set some high level parameters and then let them explore whatever, or how does it work between you guys?Guillaume: No I think the way it works is that we are the, we are prioritizing together, I think, what are the most important features because there are many things we can do [00:09:00] in audio.Yeah, I think we try to. These are like how we should do things, for instance. Ultimately what we want to do is to build this through duplex model, but we are not going to start this start there directly, I think is. Some of the project people are doing, butswyx: just to confirm, full effects means it can speak while I'm speaking or,Guillaume: yeah.Okay. Audio. Yeah. Yeah. So intimately we're going to get there, but for us it was, we decided to take it like a step by step. So we start with whatever is the most important. I think support customers, which is the transcription is the most popular use case. Then the speech generation, Soviet time, just a bit before that.And then actually to be like more, but try combining everything all together. But but yeah, we thought it was also important to like separate things and optimize each capability one by one before weswyx: measure of that together. And the super omni model. ButGuillaume: very interesting because as Par said, it's when you work on some other domains of this airline and everything, there are many areas where I think it's not as interesting.For instance. Many places, it's essentially just around data or like creating new environments on a lot of kind [00:10:00] of easy things. But things were, I think the research is maybe not as interesting. Were in audio. There are so many ways to actually build this model. So many ways to go around it. That's the sense I think is really interesting.And what we also tried for speed generation is that we tried multiple approaches. What was interesting that even though they were extremely different, they under the big know the particles but the for matching turned out to be quite more natural. So we are happy with this.swyx: Is there intuition why it maybe like flow matching is just models speech better in some natural fundamental, latent dimension?Pavan: No, I think the main thing is e even at a particular time step, there is a distribution of things.swyx: Yes.Pavan: To be predicted like the way you inflate. So you already know the word that you're speaking and Yeah. The intake space, let's say the word maps register a single token for simplicity.In most cases it does. So there is not a lot of so you just pick the word, but with within audio, even the same word could, even with your own voice, could be inflicted in so many different ways. And I think [00:11:00] any approach which like models this distribution and. And flow matching is one, one of the take.It's not the only one at all, but it's a one which works pretty reasonably well. I think that's better. So you have to pick across several different, the intuition I have is it's, there are some, several different clusters each corresponding to some specific way you would inflict, pronounce that thing.And you can't predict the mean of it because that corresponds to some blurred out speech or something like that. But you have to pick one. And then like sharpswyx: conditional inference.Pavan: Yeah, exactly.swyx: Is that all covered under disfluencies, which is I think the normal term of art. Pauses intonations. By the way, I have to thank Sophia for setting all this up, including like some of these really good notes becausePavan: Yeah.swyx: I'm less familiar with the audios for me.Pavan: No. I think dis dismisses are definitely one such Eno defenses is more likeswyx: which is arms are.Pavan: Yeah, arms. And also repeat like you like,swyx: yeah.Pavan: You do this full of words, your thinking, so you repeat the word.swyx: Okay. Whereas intonation is like a diff, it's up up [00:12:00] speak and all this.Okay.Pavan: Yeah. So I think there is a lot of like entropy. And modeling it as a distribution. And a, any technique which helps with it and the depth transformer is a conditional way of modeling this. And Transformers actually really good at it, even though that's a mini transformers. So I think that worked pretty well too for us too.It's just that the main concentration is when you have a depth transformer. If you have K tokens, you need to do K auto steps, right? Even though it's a small thing, it's K steps, which is very vacant, say heavy, but flow matching. We were able to cut it down significantly. So we are able to do the inference in quad steps or 16 steps and it works pretty well.And there are more normal techniques to bring it down even further to like, in extreme case, one step like we're not doing it yet, but it at least the framework, LEDs itself to more efficient and Yes.swyx: And the image guys have done.Pavan: Yeah.swyx: Incredible work guys. Yeah.Pavan: It now you just. Send a prompt and you get an image.swyx: Yeah. Surprisingly not enough. I think image model labs use those techniques in production. I think it's, I feel like it's a lot of research demos, but [00:13:00] nothing I can use on my phone today.Guillaume: The thing, there's a thing that would be interesting here is that since, indeed I've been so much sure that has been done in the vision community compared to radio dys, stomach, I think there are so many long infra Yeah.And there are so many things we can do to actually improve this further. So it's our first version, but we have so many ways to exist, much better and much more efficient, cost efficient, soswyx: yeah.Guillaume: So really it's not a new field at all, of course, but there are still so many things that can be done.Perfect. It'sswyx: nice. I should also mention for those who are newer to flow matching, I think the creator, this guy's name is Alex, he's done I think in Europe's maybe two Europes as ago. There was, there's a very good workshop. There's one hour on like this matching is I would recommend people look that up.That's the other thing, right?Efficiency and Model Strategyswyx: The efficiency wise, like I, I imagine like the reason is open weights the reason you pick 3.6 B backbone it you are 3.4 B you are, try to fit to some kinda hardware constraints. You kinda fits some kinda basic constraints. What are they?Guillaume: Not necessarily, I think something we care about in our model that they're efficient.So we have a [00:14:00] lot of separate model, for instance. So we have this that is very small, very efficient. We also have a small OCR model that is available. Good, highly efficient as well. And I think on a project maybe there, I think companies are going to take is to have a coverage general model that will do a bit of everything.But that is also going to be expensive. On here. What want say is if you care about this specific use case, if you can actually use this model, it just does that. It's extremely good at it. Survey, very efficient. That's why we can actually add. We do, but also OCR that are like really good at that.And that would be much more cost effective factors and the general model that will contain a lot of capabilities you don't really need. So yeah. So we're doing like general model, but also like more customized model. This,Open Weights and BenchmarksVibhu: how does it compare to other TTS models? It's, we are going follow open wave.We're just dropping it. I think it's pretty good.Pavan: Yeah, I think it's pretty good. Like it, it's definitely one of the best. For sure. It's probably I would say it's the best open source model, butVibhu: decipher themselves.swyx: Yeah.Voice Agents VisionVibhu: Why now? How does it fit into broader ral vision? How do you see voice agents?How do you see voice? I think every year I've heard, okay, you're a [00:15:00] voice. You're a voice. There's a lot of architectural stuff. There's a lot of end time that see it, your solving, but where do you see voice setting?Guillaume: We had so many customers asking for voice. That's also why we wanted to build it.What's interesting in this domain is that. In a sense, if you take something simple like transcription it doesn't seem like something that should be very hard to do for a model. It's essentially, it's pattern recognition. It's classification on this. Models are very good at classifying, right?Or nonetheless, when you talk to them it's not there yet, right? It's not, you don't talk to them the same way you talk to a person. On something, maybe people don't realize it. It's in English it's still much better than in any user language, even compared to French instance. If you talk to this million in French, when you see people talking to this they'll talk very slow.They'll articulate as much as they can. So it's not natural, right? We're not yet to this. And I think, yeah, maybe the next generation will not know this, but yeah, I think people that. But our edge will actually always keep this bias speaking very slowly when they talk to this model. Even if maybe, probably in a couple of years, maybe next year it'll not be necessary anymore.But yeah. But what's interesting is to see that yeah, even for like languages [00:16:00] like yeah, French and Spanish Germans that are not no, no resource on religion. You have a lot of audios there on still it's not as good. And I think a consequence. Because then for this, I suppose just is not as much energy, as much effort that has been put done in some other mod that for some vision or like coding.But but yeah, there's still a lot of progress to be done. I think it's just a question of doing the work and it's clear path I think to get there.Pavan: It's a little fascinating because I worked on Google Assistant I think while back at this point, but it's, I think it's, it like when you take a step back, it's fascinating.It's not that long ago. It was like four years ago or five years ago, and it's now it's completely audio in, audio out and the function calling and the whole thing happens completely end to end. And in a very natural,swyx: yeah,Pavan: natural way and still ways to go. Kim was telling, even despite all the previous, it's not like you're speaking to a person.When you talk to any of these agents, bots, or voice mode kind of situation, it's still like a gap. I think that's the great part and I feel like with even the existing [00:17:00] stack, we should be able to get to this very natural speech conversational abilities soon enough I guess.And we'll also hope. I get thatGuillaume: on this kind of the next step, right? Because when you talk to these agents, like usually people are just writing to them and sometimes they'll this very clear, for instance, you are, you want to write code, but you are, you have a very clear idea of how you want the model to implement what you in mind.But so here you are able to spend a lot of time writing. So it's not really efficient on audio is really like a natural interface that is just not there yet, but I think it's just gonna be the place.Vibhu: How's it like building, serving, inferencing, like we see a lot about, it's very easy to take LMS off the shelf, serve them.Fine tuning, deploying. I know you guys have a whole you have Ford, you have a whole stack of customizing, deploying. Is there a lag in getting that. Like distribution channel. Are you helping? There is. So like prompting, lms, you can have them be concise, verbose, all that.They're built on LM backbones, these models. How do you see all that?Enterprise Deployment and PrivacyGuillaume: Yeah, I think this is a lot of what we're doing with our own customers. Very [00:18:00] often they come to us, so it's for different reasons. I think one reason is sometimes they have this lot of privacy concerns.They have this data that it's very sensitive. They don't want data to leave. The companies, they wanted to stay. Inside the company. So we have them deploy model in-house. So either on a, either on premise or on private cloud. So they're not worried that it's given to a third party on the there some leakage.Sometimes they have this kind of many companies have this different, sensitivity of data they have like sometimes channel chat can send it to the cloud has to stay there. So then it creates some kind of heterogeneous workflows where it's annoying. You cannot send some data to the cloud.This one you can, so here, when we actually deploy the model for them, they don't have this consideration. They are like not worried that, this is going to leak. Everything is much easier. So we help them basically do this on the, so it's one of the very proposition. But but the other is very often, when customers use this off the shelf close model, but very sad is that they are not leveraging, these data that have been collecting for four years or something for decades.So much data. Sometimes it's trillions of tokens of [00:19:00] data in a very specific domain. Their domain, which is data that you'll not find in the public, on the public internet. So data on which, like close model, we actually not have access to one, which that's going to be really good. So if they're using like closed source models are basically not benefiting from all these insights.All these data they have collected three years, they can always give it into the context that in France, but is never as good as if you actually train the modern analysis. So yes, that's basically what we help them to do. We actually provide them some purchase, basically what we announced at GTC this week.So we provide them with this, it's basically like a platform with a lot of tools to actually help them process data. Trained on that. Yeah, it's actually the same thing that we're using in the science team. So it's actually very better tested infrastructure, like a lot of efficient training cut base.For a quality pre-training like a fine tuning, even doing S-F-T-I-L. So we help them do this using the same tools as what our science team is building is using. So since it's tools that we've been using for two years now, it's really better tested. It's really sophisticated.So it's the same thing. We are giving to them, giving the company the same thing [00:20:00] that what are same still using internally actually build their own ai and it makes a really big difference. I think sometimes customers. And many in general don't realize how much better the model becomes when you fine tune it on your own data.And you can have a, your model is here. You start from there. You have a cross source model, which is sort here, but if you actually fine tune it can actually really go much further than this. And then you have a very big advantage. The model is trained on your entire company knowledge, so it knows everything.You don't have to feed like 10 K tokens of contact at every query. So it's it's much easier. It's a bit, I think using a closed source model is really sad because it basically puts. You are not leveraging all this data and you are going to be using the same model as all your old competitors when you're actually using, everything you have been collected for years, which is really valuable.So yeah. So we help basically customers do this. We have a lot of solution I mean deployed for engineers that go in the company that basically look at the problem customers are facing to look at what they're struggling to do what we should do to solve it. So we help them solve them together.So it's I think our approach is a bit different, but here. [00:21:00] Some of their companies and competitors, it's, we don't just release an endpoint on sale, do some stuff on top of that, or we don't just give a checkpoint. We really look very closely with customers. We look at the issues they have, we had them solve them.We really make some tailored solution for the client are facing. Some example are also going to be, sometime we have some customers. They really wanted to have a really good model, really performance on some, like Asian languages on the, if you take some of the shelf models, they can speak it, they can write in this language, but it's not amazing.This language would be like maybe zero 1% of the mixture. So it has been included during training, but very little. So what we did here is upgrade. We trained a new model for them, but so this language was 50% of the mix, so it's much, much stronger. It knows of the dialects, it knows the, so it's yeah.So it's some example of things we can do and it's really arbitrary, custom. I think you had some of their customers, for instance, they wanted some. They wanted some 3D model that can do audio with a very good function cable. So something you wanted to put in the car in particular, they wanted this to be offline because in a car you don't necessarily have access to internet.So [00:22:00] yeah. So here we can actually build the solutions. There is no like model out of the box on this. In the internet you have this very, you have this very general model generalist, like he's strong model. But for things like this, they always want at specific solutions and on some other reasons.Sometimes they come to us is because, like they, they experiment with some closed source model. They get some prototype. They're happy with what they build. They, it works well. They're happy with the performance, and then they want to go to production and then they analyze. But it's extremely expensive.You cannot push this. It's so then they come back to us on this. They can help us build the same thing as this, but using something much cheaper on here. And here we can sometime be something 10 x cheaper by just functioning a model and it'll be better OnPrem on their old server and also much cheaper as well.So yeah,swyx: that's the drop pitch right there. Take all themoney.Vibhu: And outside of that you do, we do put open wave models so people can do this themselves. I feel like not enough people go outta their way.swyx: They're not going to, they're gonna ask them to do it as the expert. IGuillaume: think initially we didn't know, [00:23:00] we wanted completely short at the beginning of the company because, I think our study was not exactly the same as what it is today, but what we underestimated initially is the complexity of deploying this model and connecting them to everything to be sure it has access to the company knowledge on the, and it was, yeah, on, we were seeing customers struggling with this, but it was even, that was three years ago and no, things are much more complicated because now you don't just have, text on SFT on a simple instruction following.You have reasoning like your agents, you have like tools. You have a multimodal audio, so it's much more complicated than before. And even back then it was hard for customers. So they really need, have some support and this is why actually providing like always some four D position as well. The processFine Tuning and Personalizationswyx: I'm curious is there also voice fine tuning that people do?Pavan: So in this forge we also have a say unified framework. And the hope is like the er speech to text that we released earlier this year. And even the ER chart that we released last year. And I think a big people, I think there's a big, rich ecosystem [00:24:00] of people fine tuning whisper, and people want the same thing with w so it's much stronger than Whisper.And yeah, the the platform offers that kind of fine tuning yeah, which could be any kind of fine tuning. Like for instance, even sometimes people want to support new languages to this, which are tail languages, which we hope to cover. Certain natively, but if there is a language where you data and you want to frank you, I think this is a good use case.Or the other use cases, you, it's the same language, like even English but it's in a very domain specific way.swyx: Yeah. Terminology, jargon, medical stuff.Pavan: Exactly. And also there's specific acoustic conditions like there's a lot of noise or the, and. The model will do decently in most conditions, but you can always make it better.And that those are some of the use cases where you can improve it e even further. And that's one good use case for this and for text to speech. We're just releasing it so we'll have support for that soon too. I think it's similar use case.Voice Personalization Pavan: It's little different the kind of things that you want to extend a [00:25:00] text to speech model to, which could be like voice personalization, voice adaptation for enterprises.Many enterprises need very specific kind of tone, very specific kind of like personality for this kind of voice. And all of those are like good use cases for fine tuning.swyx: This one I was gonna ask you, we never talked about cloning voice clothing here. How important is it, right?Like I can clone a famous person's voice. Okay. ButPavan: the main use case would be like for enterprise personalization, like enterprises need like a lot of customization. You don't want the same. Voice for all the enterprises. Each enterprise want a customized, specialized something which is representative both their brand and also their, I guess safety considerations and the use case I think the kind of thing that you would deploy as a empathetic assistant in the context of a healthcare domain would be very different from the kind of thing that would be in a customer support bot and would be different from like more conversational aspects.I think those are the. [00:26:00] Customizations you would expect from enterprise. And that's the main use case, at least from our side.Vibhu: My, my basic example is you don't want to call to customer services and have the same exact voice. It's just, it's gonna be weird.Long-Form Speech ModelsLong-Form Speech ModelsVibhu: But also on the technical side of this, so there's like a few things in TRO that I thought were pretty interesting.He's a big fan of this paper. Oh, he said very good paper. He said this is the best SR paper he's ever read. Yeah. I've hyped up this voice paper enough. We covered it. Somewhere, but a big thing. So Whisper is known for 32nd generation a 32nd processing. You extended this to 40 minutes. There was a lot of good detail in the paper about how this was done.Even little niches of how the padding is. So it's very much needed. You need to have that padding in there, the synthetic data generation around this. I'm wondering if you can share the same about the new speech to text, right? Text to speech. So how do you. How do you generate long form, coherent?How do you generate, how do you do that? And then any gems? Is there gonna be a paper?Pavan: Yeah. Yeah. They would be a technical report. Okay. Yeah. I think I could have a lot of details.Real-Time Encoder AdvancesPavan: But me I think the [00:27:00] summary of it, actually, some of the considerations in this paper were, because we started with the wipa encoder as the starting point, and now we have in-house encoders, like the bigger time model, for instance, which we released in January.Also release a technical report for that real time model as well, which is this dual stream architecture. It's an interesting architecture. You should check it out. And there we have a causal encoder and I don't think there's any strong, multilingual causal encoder out in the community. So we thought it's a good contribution.So that's one nice encoder there. Other people want to adapt. That's a good end code. And we train it from scratch. I think her. Post stack is now mature enough that we are able to train super strong ENC codes. And some of these considerations, like spatting and stuff, is a function of the Whisper ENC code.And now that we train encoders, inhouse the design concentrations are different.Scaling Context for TTSPavan: And for the question on text to speech, I think that's also leans onto the original auto aggressive decoder backbone. I think, it says very, almost identical considerations. I think the long context in it's not even long con, [00:28:00] so the model processes audio at 12.5 herds, so one second maps to like 12.5 tokens.So I think one minute is like 7.8 tokens. You can get like up to 10 minutes in eight K context window and get half an hour and 30 K context window. So that's and 30 2K context is something that's we are very comfortable training on. We can extend it even much longer. 1 48 K. Okay. You can naturally see how it can extend to even our long generations.Yeah. We need the. Like data recipe and the whole algorithm to work coherently enough through such long context. But the techniques are some way very similar to the text, long context modeling. And the key differences, it's just doing flow matching order regressively instead of a text open prediction.swyx: Okay. I think that was most, most of the sort of voice questions that we had. ButWhat Makes a Model SmallVibhu: I have a big question on Mr. Al, Mr. Small. So what is small? How do we define [00:29:00] small? What is this? What is this? I remember the days of Misal seven B on my laptop. The snuff fitting on my laptop. I could run it on the big laptop, butGuillaume: it's just additional.Question of terminology, like here what we did, baseball is north active parameters, but it's true. Really not give it another name, but yeah, we could have called it medium, but only, I,I suppose it's a model that we released mixture of experts. It's a model that combines different model before which we were doing the same, is that we had one model, general model for Israel. Doing instruction following, were like a separate model that was Devrel trial. So qu coding specify specific to code with another model for Reason Maal.So this were separate artifacts built by different team at trial on what we're doing is basically merging all of this. It was, you had pixel trial was the first vision model. We was like a separate model on the way we do things internally is that we have one team focus on one capability, build one model.On the means mature, mature enough, we decide to merge this into the [00:30:00] matrix. But here it was the first time we basically match all of this into one. But there are some other things we did at first time to merge time, for instance, like more capabilities or function coding I think would be, are, it's going to be much, much better in this trial, small platform.But but yeah, so it's our latest model on the working is,Vibhu: and yeah, key things is it's very sparse. Six, be active pretty efficient to serve. 2 56 K context. Yeah,Merging Capabilities vs Specialistsswyx: I think what's interesting is just this general theory of developing individual capabilities in different teams and then merging them.Where is this going gonna end up?Vibhu: Like we've seen the five things put together in this. Yeah. What are the next five teams?swyx: I think actually OpenAI has gone away from the original four Oh. Vision of the Omni model. This was what they were selling. All modalities and all modalities out.But I feel like you might do it.Guillaume: I think there's some mod where it's not competitive use, for instance for audio. For audio here, if you want to do transcription, I think it makes no sense to use a model. If you just want to trans tech it, it'll be very inefficient. If you want to do audio, you probably just want to be the [00:31:00] one VR 3D model performance essentiallyswyx: the same.It's going to be incredibly cheaper. So here, that's why we wantGuillaume: to have a separate but just does this. Yeah, I think the question is just, yeah. If you are to, to your model. By speech and you asking like a very complex questions on how you do this on the, just to cascade things. Do you want to put a d in a model that has like a one key around it?It's like a, not a competitive discussion, I think unaware if you doing into the direction, but that's possible. Of course. But yeah. But I think for us, the next capabilities we want to try to integrate into these models when we are going to be yes, like marketing or no reasoning better, I think more capabilities that people don't talk too much about, but at high bottom, I think for our customers in our, on different industries, for instance, things are around like a legal computer.I design all these things that is this males out of the box are to put at that. Because people, if you don't prioritize this, there is not like too benchmark on that. Butswyx: this done how toGuillaume: make this good and this just start to do the work. Extracting some that processing it [00:32:00] expression. So yeah.But we are offering the imagine to this.swyx: I think for voice. Yeah. The key thing I think over maybe like the last year or so with VO and gr Imagine and all these things is joining voice with video, right? Which people don't understand spatial audio because like most TTS is just oh, I'm speaking to a microphone in perfect studio quality.But when you have video, like the voice moves around.Pavan: That's true. The constitution was a little different in the sense that there it's like a a standalone artifact where you get the whole thing and you consume it. But in a conversational setting, it's a, you need the extreme low latency.swyx: Yeah,Pavan: streaming would be one of the primary concentrations.swyx: You can build a giant company just doing that, right? So you don't need to do the voice, but I was just know on the theme of merging modalities, that is something I, I am like, wow. Like I didn't, everyone up till, let's say mid last year was just doing these like pipelines of okay, we'll stitch a TTS model with a voice thing and a lip sync [00:33:00] thing and what have you.Nope. Just giant model. Yeah.Open Source MissionVibhu: I have a two part question. So one is, it's still open. It seems like open source is still very core to what you guys do and I just have to plug your paper. Jan 2024. This is the one trial of experts like. Very fundamental research on how to do good.Moes paper comes out very good paper for anyone. That's just side tangent. No.swyx: This thing caused, we bring back, eight by 22 was like the nuclear bomb for open source. I think it takes Shouldn be more seven B more. Yeah. Yeah. But this is a bigger opposite than me.Yeah. Yeah I don't remember this. I remember, I don't think it was January, right? It was like new reps it was, it dropped during new reps and everyone in Europes was December of 25th, I think. Yeah. The model was did as well.Vibhu: It's just a little update probably.swyx: Yeah. No, but you have a point to make.Vibhu: No, you gotta check that. But then, I just want to hear more broadly on open source for you guys, and when you had asked earlier [00:34:00] about what's next, what are the other, side tapes working on you. You put out Lean straw. This,swyx: it's not necessarily surprise. I was like, I don't, this doesn't fit my mental model or Misra.Guillaume: Yeah. First for open source in general, I think it's really something which looks to the January of the company. I think we started it per once, is we so we have open sourcing with, since the beginning and even before this. So before this, so me and Tim were at Meta, we released LA and I think what was really nice.To see that before this, for most researchers like universities, it was impossible to work on elements. There was no alien outside. And if you look at many of the techniques that were developed after, for instance, was open source all this post-training approaches like even DPOD, like preference optimization, all of this were done by people that had access to this portal.And it'll have been impossible to do without this. So it's really making sense, move faster. So we really want to contribute to this ecosystem. I think like the deep and also like very lot of impact. All these papers that are I think in the open source community are really helping the science community as a whole to move faster.So [00:35:00] we want contribute to this ecosystem. That's why we're releasing very detailed technical reports. So ma trial and our first reason model, and ation, lot of results, things that work, things that did not work as well. Think helpful on the, yeah, so for the audio model also to share a lot of details, share of them for real time model.And the, yeah, so we really want to continue this, basically belong to this community of people who share science. I think we really don't want to be, leading in a world where the smartest model, the best models are only behind, close doors. Only accessible to a shoe companies that we, as a power to decide we can use them on it.I think it's a scary future. We don't want to live in, we really want this model to be accessible to anyone that want. Intelligence to be used unaccessible by anyone who can use it. So yeah, so that's why we are pushing this mission and source model. Yeah. So not, so yeah, no strategy. So it's open source, not the first model, so not the best on the Yeah.Lean and Formal ProofsGuillaume: LIN trial I think is also one step into this direction. So it's yeah, a bit different than what we are usually releasing. But we have a small team internally [00:36:00] working on them. Formal proofing, formal math. So I think a subject we care about in general and we were working on reasoning. I think we started too early before doing reasoning without LMD is very hard, especially when you work with formal systems because the amount of data you have is negligible.It's addressable community of people writing like formal proofs. But the reason why we like it is because I think there is if you look at what people are doing with reasoning, is there, the problems that you can use. Are usually going to be problems where you can verify the output. So for instance, all this ai ME problem where the solution is a number between 100, like a thousand.So you can verify, compare this with a reference or it's an expression. You can actually compare the output expression generic with the reference. But there are many, most of them have problem and most of the reason problem. There is no like way to easily verify the solution. If the question is show that F is continuous, cannot compare in the reference, right?If it's a probe that this is true or probes is properties, there is no way to. You cannot act, simply verify the correctness of your proof. So it's hard to apply the, there is no referable reward here. So [00:37:00] what you could provide is of course, like a judge and judge that will look at your proof. But it's very hard and it's very, you could do certain, some reward hacking happening there.So it's difficult. You could provide like a reference proof, but then there are also many ways to prove the same thing. So if the model says give negative reward because it's a different poop, maybe it was still digit proof, just different. So it's not going to work well. What's nice with lean and with formal probing is that you don't have to worry about this whatsoever.We just,swyx: they're all function is largely compiles in lean is functionally the same. Exactly.Guillaume: It's like a problem if it compiles it's correct. It's very easy. And you can apply this and then you can,swyx: it's just way too small. So no human will actually go and do it.Guillaume: Yeah, that's exactly.It's the only people can do it. It's like a very small committee of people doing a PhD on that. So it's super small. And it's sad because it's actually very useful on not just mat, but also in software verification. So for instance, software verification today. So tiny market. Very few industries work on this and we need that.It's usually going to be like companies like building airplanes, air robotics,swyx: likeGuillaume: things [00:38:00] where they absolutely want to be sure. Life depend on this, but it's very rare that people formally verify the correctness of their software. But I think one of the reasons for this is simply that it's just hard to do.swyx: Are you think of TLA plus? It's the language that some people do for software verification? No. That people use in a ference, but but yeah, it's the reason I think why people don't use it more and why this industry is not as big as could be is because it's very hard. But now with cutting edges that are there, it's going to be very different.Guillaume: We're going to see much more of this. So I think yes, industry there is going to be much larger in the future that we, these models. So yeah. Here also anticipating this a little bit, we wanted to work on that because it's proving like a math theory and like a, essentially the same tools.swyx: Yeah.Reasoning Transfer and Agentsswyx: One of my theories is that because the proofs takes so long, it's actually just a proxy for long horizon reasoning and coherence and planning. Maybe a lot of people will say okay, it's for people who like math. It's for being okay. It's like a niche math language. Who cares? But actually, and you use this as part of your data mixture for [00:39:00] post-training and reasoning, actually, it might spike everywhere else.Yeah. And I think that's un under explored or no one's like really put out a definitive paper on how this generalizes.Guillaume: Yeah, absolutely. AndPavan: I think evenGuillaume: that's what we're seeing already. For instance, you should do some reasoning on math as then the American should do reason even.Yeah. In the early stage. So we, the, there is some transfer, some sort of emergence that happens. And I think some, it's also interesting, it's not just I think the topic in general, but it's, there is a lot of connection with this on including agents because. Sometimes the model can see like a three that it has to prove it's very complex, but then it can take the initiative to say, I'm going to prove this three lr.I'm going to suggest three Rs, and I'm going to in parallel prove each R. So three of them in parallel with sub agents, but I'm also going to prove them in theory and the three tool so you can do this also. Pretty interesting. You can, even if you fail to put one of the LeMar, you can actually, maybe you succeed to put the normal lema too, so you get some possible reward here.So it's a bit less Spartan issue, just get to zero one for the entire thing. [00:40:00] So it's pretty interesting. I think we can actually,Vibhu: yeah, it's also an interesting case just for specialized models in general, right? Like the cost thing you show is pretty interesting yeah, similar score wise, you are, thirty, seventy, a hundred fifty, three hundred bucks.Smaller.swyx: I think cost is a bit unfair, right? ‘cause this one is at like inference cost. It's always there on top with their margins on top of it. But, we don't know anything else, so we gotta figure it out.Vibhu: Okay.Next Frontiers in TrainingVibhu: I did wanna actually push on that more. Not on cost, but you mentioned about, okay, it's a great way to have verifiable long context reasoning.What are other frontiers that, I'm sure you guys are working on internally, there's a lot of push of people pushing back on pre-training. Scaling, RL pushing, compute towards having more than half of your training budget. All on rl. Where are you guys seeing the frontier of research in that?Guillaume: You mean theVibhu: just in foundation model training in the next, one thing that you guys do actually is you do fundamental research from the ground up, right? So you probably have a really good look at where you can [00:41:00] forecast this out.Guillaume: Yeah. I think for us we're still working a lot on the pre-training side.I think we are very far from situational, the pre-training. I think ML four preprinting will be like big step compared to everything we have done before. So we are pretty excited about this. And I think on the other side, I think now we have more and more to think about this algorithm that will actually support this very long trajectories.I think when it was, for instance, GRPO for it doesn't really work this any bit of policy. Which was okay initially because you are solving math problem that can be solved in like a few thousand tokens. So the model can alize them pretty quickly. So when you do your update, the model is never too far off.It's never too far off. But now when you are moving towards this kind of problems where certain takes hours, like six hours to get a reward, then your model is co pick places. So you have bi new infrastructure that supports this, but also new A, so now everything we're doing internally, we're trying to. Build some infra that we actually anticipate is what we have in six months, one now, which is this extremely no scenarios on the, I think when we started Missal, part of me and [00:42:00] we wanted to, is very nice under element where people are there, they can do research, they like with a lot of resources.So it was nice. I think things changed a lot when I think when J Pity came out. I think after that I think was. This one is same again. But but yeah, but it was nice. And I think we also want to work part of this descrip beforeswyx: coming to the end.Hiring and Team Footprintswyx: We're just, obviously, I think you guys are doing incredible work.You've, they are a very impressive vision for open source and for voice. What are you hiring for? What's the what are you looking for that you are trying to join the company?Guillaume: Yeah, so we are hiring a lot of people in our sense team. We're hiring, in all our offices. So we have a, our H two is in France in Paris.We have a small team in London. We like a team in Pato as well. Co we open some offices in in SAU, in Poland. So one in Zurich. We also like some presence in New York as well on Sooner one in San Francisco. So we all bit either way also like hiring remotely. So we're going the team trying to hire like very strong people.I think we want to stay, so the team is not. Instead of fairly small team. [00:43:00] But I think we want to keep it that way. ‘Cause we we find it quite efficient. So like a small team they agile so yeah.swyx: Okay.AI for Science Partnershipsswyx: Let's focus on science and the forward deployed. We actually are strong believers in science.We started the our new science pod that focuses specifically on the air for science. What areas do you think are the most promis.Guillaume: What we're pretty excited about right now, and something we have already started doing or that we'd probably be able to share more about this in a couple of months, is that we are exploring AI for science.And there are a lot of areas where we think that you could get some extremely promising buzz. If you were to apply AI in these domains. There are a lot of long inputs. You just have to find these domains where actually AI has not been yet applied, and it's usually hard to do because the people working in those domains don't necessarily know the capability of these models.They don't know. How I would just have to pair them with Yeah, exactly. Your researcher slashing, which is actually hard to do. But this matching, we're doing it naturally with our customers. So we have some company we are very closely with. So for instance, ISM Andreesen are one of our partners, so we're doing some research with them on their other, like tons of extremely interesting problems.Columns in physics, in [00:44:00] science matter science that they're essentially the only ones to work on. ‘cause they're doing something No, no one else is doing on the, yeah. So there are many domains where AI can actually revolutionize things. Just you have to think about it on you familiar with what can do or to apply it.So yeah, it's something where more modeling with our partners, with our customers sort AI for s, but.swyx: Yeah. Okay.Forward Deployed Skillsswyx: And then for deployed what it makes a good four deployed engineer, what do they need? Where do people fail?Guillaume: I think it's usually you need people that are very familiar with the tech and not necessarily with a lot of research expertise, but that are actually pretty good at using this model that can actually like that know how to do functioning, that know how to like, start some error pipeline.And it's it's not easy. It's something that mucus. Majority of companies will not be able to do this on their own. So here I think we need people that are, that like to solve problems that are accept solving some complex, very concrete problem. It's applied science basically.And yeah, so I think it's not too different. I think from the case you need in research because it's essentially you are trying to find solutions to problems that in [00:45:00] customers have not yet. So sometimes it's easy. Sometimes you're here to do the work. You have to like create synthetic data.Find some edge case. So it can be, yeah. Depends on the problem. But but yeah, you have to, I think it also a bit of patience on the be creative. I think very similar skill is Asian,Pavan: the diversity of the work they do. It always surprises me. It's it's, it goes all the way from the kind of stuff they encounter in industries.It's just very interesting. I think.swyx: Any fun like success anecdotes.Guillaume: Yeah, it can be actually training this small model on edge that just we do one specific thing can be like training some very large model without some specific languages as well. Making models really good at some tube use, like for instance, computer ID design, these kind of things.Is that pairing with vision as well? Yeah,Pavan: and the fact detection for chips or like in, in factories identifying things like it, the. Diversity could be anything where you can deploy these foundation models. So yeah the work to make it work in that specific setting, basically whatever it takes to make it like add value in that, by the way, workflow.Vibhu: Yeah. [00:46:00] And it goes across the stack, right? Like even just pulling up the website like.swyx: It's so broad on compute. It is so broad.Vibhu: We didn't even touch on if you have a coding CLI tool. One thing you guys were actually like, I think the first tool was agents, ral agents. You had the agent builder, you can serve it via API and all that.And I'm guessing forward deploy people.Guillaume: Yeah.Vibhu: Help build that out and stuff.Customer Feedback LoopGuillaume: It is also why we are, so we're doing many things, but I think that's also part of the value proposition that sometime know customers. They're always very. Extremely careful about their data and they don't want to, they don't like, trusting so many partners, trusting one partner for code, giving the data to another third party for like audios and another one.So they don't like this here. What they really like with our approach that we can help them on anything so they don't have to send the data to so many clouds. So yeah,swyx: I think that there can be many orders of magnitude more. F Ds then research scientists and they don't need your full experience, but they're still super variable to customersGuillaume: in practice.These two teams [00:47:00] are still quite intertwine, very often. Yeah. So first of all, they're using the same tools, the same data pipeline and everything on the, it's it's very helpful for the science team to get the feedback and the solution team ‘cause they can. Look at these customers are trying to do this.This is not working. It can really be show in the next version. Yeah. But this is basically a real world eval. Yeah, it's real world eval and it's not something, for instance, if you're just working in the lab, it's just ships model. But you don't do this work of for customers. You have no idea for whether your model is good at this H case.For instance, you even in year found this, right? So yeah, there is a very gap, big gap between the public benchmarks that are very like academic. OnPavan: the rare cases are just very diverse and in the specific concept of a customer, you can fine tune and make it like first evaluate, create a solid eval, benchmark, and then measure in the context of their, the kind of audio.Like for instance, one use case is literally just, there's the word for kids and they have to just say it out. It's a very specific thing. You're just saying one word and then you have to you, you'll grade the kid whether they did it right or not. It's [00:48:00] like R for, but so there're very diverse use cases and the idea is that they, the.Applied scientist engineer will go and make it better. And then from the learnings we incorporate it into the base model itself. So it's it's just better out of the box.Vibhu: Yeah. It's a good full circle system. Like the foundation model evals are all just proxies of what you really, you're never gonna have one that says it, it doesn't make sense for there to be, a one word transcription like that.It's not something you wanna fit on. Perfect.Wrap Up and Thanksswyx: Everyone should go check out everything that Michelle has to offer and try the TTS model, which will link in the show notes. But thank you so much for coming tha thanks. Such a stretch. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.latent.space/subscribe

We're back with a new episode of The Preconstruction Podcast and it's a strong one to kick things off.Gareth McGlynn sits down with Elliot Christiansen, Sr. Vice President of Operations at Cleveland Construction, after a recent move that caught a lot of attention across the industry.With so much noise around AI and new tech, this episode focuses on what's actually working in practice, from real decisions to implementation and what teams are seeing on the ground today.Discussion Highlights:Cleveland's major platform transition: The decision to move from Procore to Autodesk and what triggered the shift, early benefits, cost considerations, and key lessons.Autodesk Construction Cloud: How it's supporting project controls, forecasting, and data continuity.Using AI outside the core platform: Tools like Box AI to support day-to-day work.Elliot's passion for mentoring: The role of mentoring, LMS systems, and building the next generation of preconstruction professionals.A timely conversation for anyone weighing up new technology, reviewing their current systems, or looking at how AI fits into their workflow.Connect with Elliot via Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elliot-christiansen/

Everyone is talking about AI these days. Often these conversations are about how AI might upend education, or work, or social life, or maybe civilization itself. But among cognitive scientists and psychologists the conversation inevitably drifts toward other questions. What does this latest generation of AI tell us about the human mind? Is it putting old ideas and theories to rest? Is it ushering in new ones? Will AI—in other words—also upend cognitive science? My guests today are Dr. Mike Frank and Dr. Gary Lupyan. Mike is a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University, where his lab focuses on language learning and cognition in children. Gary is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Wisconsin Madison, where his lab studies language and its role in augmenting human cognition. Both Gary and Mike have more recently been thinking a lot about AI and how it is challenging and deepening our understanding of the human mind.   In this conversation, we talk about being interested in AI as cognitive scientists—while also being concerned about the technology as people. We discuss the linguistic abilities of frontier LLMs compared to the linguistic abilities of adult humans. We talk about a glaring "data gap" here—the fact that, even though LLMs often rival human abilities, they require orders of magnitude more data to do so. We contrast the capabilities of large language models with so-called BabyLMs. We consider the fact that, as LLMs master language, they also master other abilities—capacities for mathematical reasoning, causal understanding, possibly theory of mind, and more. And we talk about why language might be an especially potent form of input for an AI. Along the way, we touch on reference and the symbol grounding problem, the Platonic Representation Hypothesis, stimulus computability, confabulated citations, pattern matching and jabberwocky, the poverty of the stimulus argument, congenital blindness, Quine's topiary, the limits of in principle demonstrations, the WEIRD problem, and what the astonishing sophistication of disembodied AIs might suggest about the role of bodily experience in human cognition. Before we get to it, one small request: we're currently running a short survey of our listeners. You can find the link in our show notes. If you have a few minutes, we'd really love your input!  Alright friends, here's my conversation with Mike Frank and Gary Lupyan. I think you'll enjoy it!   Notes 5:00 – For more discussion of "stochastic parrots" and other ways of framing AI systems, see our recent episode with Melanie Mitchell. For the "octopus test," see here. 8:00 – "BabyLMs" are—in contrast to large LMs (aka LLMs)—models that are trained on a more human-scale amount of linguistic input. For more on the BabyLM community, see here. 12:00 – For broad discussion of the use of AIs as "cognitive models," see this paper by Dr. Frank and a colleague. The same paper discusses the idea of "stimulus computability."  18:00 – For Dr. Frank's "baby steps" paper, see here. 20:00 – For more on how Claude understands line breaks, see Anthropic's analysis of the issue here.  23:00 – For work on human-like grammaticality judgments in LLMs, see this paper by a team including Dr. Lupyan.  24:00 – See here for an influential paper on, among other things, how LLMs refute the idea that syntax is unlearnable. The article titled 'How linguistics learned to stop worrying and love the language models' is here; Dr. Lupyan's commentary—'Large language models have learned to use language'—here. 29:00 – For some of Dr. Lupyan's work on the "abstractness" of even concrete concepts, see here. 35:00 – For a classic paper on the so-called symbol grounding problem, see here.  37:00 – For the preprint putting forth the "Platonic Representation Hypothesis," see here. 40:30 – For more on the data gap between children and LLMs—and what accounts for it—see Dr. Frank's paper here. 45:00 – For a sampling of Dr. Frank and colleagues' work comparing language models to children, see here, here, and here. For more on the LEVANTE project, a collaborative effort spearheaded by Dr. Frank, see here. 48:00 – For the preprint—'The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Pattern Matching,' by Dr. Lupyan and a colleague—see here. 55:00 – For more on Dr. Lupyan's perspective on the centrality of language in human cognition, see here. See also this more recent paper, considering the question in light of LLMs.  58:00 – For our earlier episode with Dr. Marina Bedny, see here. For the recent paper by Dr. Bedny and colleagues considering their research on congenital blindness in light of LLMs, see here. 1:01:00 – For classic work on language learning in blind children, see here. 1:02:00 – For a paper by Dr. Lupyan and colleagues on "hidden" individual differences, see here. 1:03:00 – For more on "multiple realizability," see here. For our earlier episode with Dr. Eric Turkheimer, see here. 1:09:00 – For more on the work of Dr. Frank's collaborator, Dan Yamins, see here. 1:14:00 – See our earlier episode with Dr. M.J. Crockett for more discussion of the "WEIRD problem" around scientific uses of AI. In the same episode, we discussed how new cognitive scientific methods focus attention on questions that can be studied with those methods.    Recommendations The Mind at Play, by Jimmy Soni & Rob Goodman On Desire, by William Irvine Patterns, thinking, and cognition, by Howard Margolis Open Encyclopedia of Cognitive Science The BabyLM workhops/community (e.g, the entry on LLMs)   Many Minds is a project of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which is made possible by a generous grant from the John Templeton Foundation to Indiana University. The show is hosted and produced by Kensy Cooperrider, with help from Assistant Producer Urte Laukaityte and with creative support from DISI Directors Erica Cartmill and Jacob Foster. Our artwork is by Ben Oldroyd. Subscribe to Many Minds on Apple, Stitcher, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also now subscribe to the Many Minds newsletter here! We welcome your comments, questions, and suggestions. Feel free to email us at: manymindspodcast@gmail.com. For updates about the show, visit our website or follow us on Bluesky (@manymindspod.bsky.social).

Dans ce nouvel épisode, Delphine Zanelli a le plaisir d'accueillir Sandrine Girszyn, Directrice des Ressources Humaines du siège d'AXA. J'ai souhaité la recevoir après avoir découvert les actions qu'elle met en place pour accompagner les managers, avec une approche très concrète centrée sur leurs besoins.Dans cet épisode, nous parlons de pratique managériale à partir d'un dispositif structurant : la création d'une communauté managériale. Sandrine Girszyn explique comment cette initiative est née d'un constat simple : le manager est aujourd'hui pris entre des injonctions multiples, performance, collectif, transformations... et manque d'espaces pour prendre du recul et échanger avec ses pairs.Sandrine détaille la manière dont cette communauté a été construite dans la durée, avec des conférences mensuelles, des temps d'échange informels, et une logique de co-construction avec les managers. L'objectif n'est pas de proposer un modèle unique, mais de créer des conditions pour que chacun puisse développer sa pratique managériale à partir de ses enjeux.L'épisode met en lumière plusieurs enseignements clés :créer des temps réguliers et non ponctuels pour ancrer les pratiquesproposer des formats variés (conférences, co-développement, workshops) pour s'adapter aux besoinssortir d'une logique descendante pour co-construire avec les managersreconnaître le rôle du manager comme relais concret des transformations dans l'entrepriseNous abordons également la manière d'accompagner les transformations, notamment l'intelligence artificielle. Sandrine Girszyn insiste sur la nécessité d'expérimenter, de laisser le temps d'appropriation et de dédramatiser les changements. Le manager joue ici un rôle clé pour rendre ces évolutions compréhensibles et applicables au quotidien.Autre point central : le collectif. À travers des initiatives comme les “Lunch and Learn”, ouverts à tous les collaborateurs, AXA crée des espaces de décloisonnement et d'apprentissage partagé. Ces dispositifs contribuent à renforcer l'engagement des collaborateurs et à recréer du lien dans un contexte de travail hybride.Enfin, cet échange rappelle que la fonction RH ne transforme pas seule une organisation. Elle crée un cadre, propose des dispositifs, mais ce sont les managers qui font vivre ces pratiques au quotidien dans leurs équipes.

Hey Voices from the Bench community! Jessica Love here, sending a shoutout from Utah! If you're passionate about creating natural, beautiful smiles—but want to simplify your workflow without sacrificing aesthetics—this is for you. I'm honored to be part of Ivoclar's development team introducing a powerful new stain and glaze system featuring Structure Paste, IPS e.max Ceram Art. Create stunning depth and lifelike color in as little as one firing. Let's continue to innovate, simplify, and create meaningful change—one smile at a time. When it comes to digital dentures, design is easy—manufacturing is where things get messy. That's why the Elevate Denture Solution brings it all together. Built by Roland DGSHAPE, Ivoclar, and FOLLOW-ME! Technology Group, it combines machine, materials, and CAM into one fully optimized workflow—so you get consistent, high-quality results without the guesswork. Want to simplify production and scale with confidence? Check it out at rollanddga.com/elevate. "Live" from the Ivoclar ballroom at Lab Day 2026, Elvis and Barb dives into conversations that perfectly capture what this industry is all about—innovation, relationships, and a whole lot of nerding out. We kick things off with Frederic Rapp, who went from growing up in his dad's basement lab in France to scaling it into one of the largest labs in Europe. After selling the business, he found his way back into the industry through innovation—helping labs unlock the gold mine sitting inside their own data with icortica. From dashboards to AI-driven insights and even voice-activated notes in the parking lot, it's all about working smarter, not harder… and maybe not looking like an idiot when you walk into a doctor's office. Then things shift to a great partnership with Casey Baldwin and Darin Lockaby, where we get into a seriously cool collaboration between Ivoclar and DESS. Think plug-and-play workflows that let labs mill their own abutments in-house—FDA compliant, streamlined, and actually simple. With margins tighter than ever, this kind of control over production isn't just nice… it's becoming necessary. From scaling labs to scaling data, from implants to AI, this episode is packed with insight, laughs, and a clear message: the labs that embrace technology (without losing the human touch) are the ones that are going to win. Join us at exocad Insights 2026, happening April 30–May 1, 2026, on the stunning island of Mallorca, Spain. This two-day event features powerhouse keynotes, hands-on workshops, live software demos, and top-tier industry showcases—all in one unforgettable setting. Barb and Elvis will be on site bringing you exclusive interviews, plus don't miss the Women in Dentistry Lunch, celebrating career growth, wellbeing, and the real stories shaping our profession. And of course, cap it all off with the legendary exoGlam Night under the stars. Tickets are limited. Visit exocad.com/insights-2026 and use code VFTBPalma15 for 15% off.Special Guests: Casey Baldwin, Darin Lockaby, and Frederic Rapp.

For a limited time, Latent Spacenauts can skip the waitline to join Dreamer and also compete for a $10,000 cash prize for most useful tools for Dreamer! Thanks @dps!In 2024, David Singleton left Stripe and joined forces with Hugo Barra for a buzzy stealth startup named /dev/agents. This month they emerged out as Dreamer, a consumer-first platform to discover, build, and use AI agents and agentic apps, centered on a personal “Sidekick” that helps users customize experiences via natural language. Sidekick is nothing less than an “agent that builds agents”, with all the complexity that that entails:You've seen many many website builder, app builder, and even agent builder startups by now, but our favorite detail is the sheer amount of work that has gone into the “full stack” nature of the platform, including shipping their own SDK, logging, database, prompt management, serverless functions, and so on. Most platforms restrict the tech stack you can use just to get off the ground — Dreamer does it “right” by letting you push whatever arbitrary code you want to their VMs.Paying the BuildersOf course former leaders of Stripe and Android would not stop at just building the tools, but also building the ecosystem. Dreamer is deeply aware of the 4 sided network effect it has going on and is ready to fund all of it - from hiring Builders in Residence to awarding $10,000 cash prizes to the best tool builders for the Dreamer ecosystem.It's time to Dream!Full Video Episodeon youtube.Transcript[00:00:00] Meet Dreamer Purple[00:00:00] swyx: Okay, we're here in the studio with David Singleton. Welcome.[00:00:08] David Singleton: Hey, Wix. It's great to be here.[00:00:09] swyx: It's great to have you. Uh, we have very sympa that your company color is the same as Lean Spaces color.[00:00:15] David Singleton: That's right. Dreamer Purple.[00:00:17] swyx: It used to be Devrel agents, which I thought was very cool. It's like you call back to Devrel Payments.[00:00:22] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:00:22] swyx: And you were obviously CTO Stripe. And talk to me about just the origin or thinking process behind Dreamer. Yeah. And maybe, maybe start with like, what, what is Dreamer?[00:00:31] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:00:31] What Is Dreamer[00:00:31] David Singleton: So Dreamer is a new product, uh, which everyone can come and play with today. Um, it's a place where everyone, literally, everyone can discover, build, and enjoy and use AI agents and agenda apps.[00:00:45] And we really did design it for consumers, for folks who are not necessarily. Uh, have any kind of technical background. It's really aimed at everyone. I think often of my sister, she's very smart. She's not in the slightest bit technical. She has lots of problems in her life that [00:01:00] she would like to be able to have great software and intelligent software to solve.[00:01:04] But you know, even with the rise of tools like Cloud Code and so forth, she's got no way to get started. And Dreamer is a place where she can come in, grab some intelligent apps that other people in the community have built, start using them right away, and solve real problems in her life.[00:01:19] Sidekick And Waitlist[00:01:19] David Singleton: And at the core, we have a personal agent called the Sidekick.[00:01:24] Um, you can give your sidekick a name, you can give it its own personality, and it really helps you across your entire day, your life. It helps you use all of the agents on the platform, and it also helps you build anything you want. And we've been working in this for a little while. We recently launched in beta.[00:01:41] So anyone can go to dreamer.com, join the wait list. Um, and we have many, many, many people in the community now who are building really fun, really powerful, really useful. Agents and the agentic apps for themselves.[00:01:54] swyx: I think we're gonna go right into a demo. Yeah. I just wanna make an observation that, uh, you, you, [00:02:00] you put discover first before build.[00:02:02] Mm-hmm. But actually, at least for the engineers in the audience. ‘cause we are primarily engineers and you're primarily targeting consumers, right?[00:02:08] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:02:08] swyx: For engineers. Like, there's a huge full stack of stuff, which we're gonna dive into. Let's write. It's so impressive. I'm like, holy s**t, this, this is what I've always wanted.[00:02:16] Cool. Uh, so, so I think that's really good and I've, in some ways, I think given your background given, uh, Hugo's, is it Hugo? Hugo.[00:02:24] David Singleton: Hugo. Hugo Bar. Yeah.[00:02:25] swyx: Hugo, it's not surprising that you can basically kind of build an app store Yeah. For agents.[00:02:30] David Singleton: Yeah. So Hugo was my co-founder. Yeah. Um, Hugo and I met with our other co-founder Nicholas Checkoff in the very early days of Android at Google, where we were building Google's first mobile apps.[00:02:41] Uh, we then contributed to very core pieces of Android itself. And you're right, we were really excited about building two things. One, solving a bunch of problems. That this breakthrough technology here I'm talking about mobile needed to have solved in order to make it work for real people at scale. And then secondly, building this ecosystem, um, [00:03:00] of third party developers using the Play Store, um, and able to deliver way more value on the platform than we could have delivered on our own.[00:03:08] And we think about Dreamer in exactly the same way. So I was working at Stripe, as you mentioned, and we had the opportunity to put some of the very first AI agent systems in the world into production. And from the moment we did the first of those, I was just struck with a strong sense of conviction that this is breakthrough technology that's gonna change how all of us work with computers and phones and so forth, all of the, the technology in our lives, but.[00:03:34] There's a lot of problems to be solved, for real people to be able to make this approachable. Um, and it really is kind of a direct analog for what we were solving back in the early days of mobile apps at Google and, and Android. So it's, it's been fun to bring that to life.[00:03:47] swyx: Yeah. Uh, let's look at it.[00:03:48] David Singleton: Yeah, let's take a look.[00:03:49] Dashboard And Daily Briefing[00:03:49] David Singleton: So, uh, dreamer.com, this is our homepage. This is where you can come and, uh, watch some videos about what is here and sign up for the wait list. Once[00:03:57] swyx: you, I, I just wanna say for those listening, ‘cause we have a lot, you [00:04:00] know, switch to YouTube, look at the animations. So much care.[00:04:03] David Singleton: We, we really care about, uh, this product being fun.[00:04:07] Uh, and, and interesting to use. Obviously a lot of people are using it to do real important stuff. You can do real work, uh, here, uh, but also you can build fun things too. Once you get off of our wait list, you'll come into the product. The first thing that happens is you'll have a conversation with your side cake, which is this little friendly, uh, character here.[00:04:27] And psychic will seek to get to know you and understand you. What do you care about? And will help you discover and build your first AI agents or agentic apps. After that, you're, you're gonna have a dashboard. This is my dashboard. Everyone's is different. Um, you can see I have a few things here. I have a feed.[00:04:42] So a lot of our agents do things in the background when you're not looking and the feed is how they let you know what they've been up to. I have, uh, some widgets, uh, from apps that I have built. Uh, this one is called Calendar Hero. Uh, this is something that I installed from the gallery. Uh, so built by someone in our community.[00:04:59] It's a [00:05:00] really powerful calendar app because for each of my meetings, if it's with someone I don't already know, well it'll actually go off and research it, um, and give me both a history of my interactions with those people and also a bunch of, you know, public useful information to, to get started. One of the things I love about this particular app is that every day it generates a podcast, um, a daily briefing.[00:05:24] And one of the things that we've done with the platform is we've made it possible for all the things that agents do to show up in places that you care about. So if you look over here, this is the screen in my phone, and if I go ahead and open my Apple Podcasts, you can see right here. Your Daily briefing podcast is ready.[00:05:39] This was produced by an agent running in my Dreamer account, and it was very easy by scanning a QR code to connect it to my Apple podcast. That's what I listened to in the car now every morning. Yeah. On my way to work.[00:05:50] swyx: It, it[00:05:50] David Singleton: preps me for, for my day.[00:05:52] swyx: So one additional bit of context. I asked you immediately after seeing this was like, what, what about, I wanna talk back to my agent and you said you actually started with voice and then you went to [00:06:00] podcasts.[00:06:00] ‘cause it's nice to have it pre downloaded[00:06:02] David Singleton: that, right? That's right. Um, yeah, we, you, you can talk to your sidekick. So, you know, on mobile we have, uh, a dreamer app and you can talk to the sidekick right here. Um, but we've actually found that making things, uh, show up in the other apps that you already use in your life is incredibly powerful.[00:06:19] So let's take a look at what's kind of under the hood here.[00:06:21] Gallery Tools And Payouts[00:06:21] David Singleton: So I already mentioned that we have a gallery, so this is where you'll find a lot of agents from our community. Uh, there's. Many at this point, hundreds. And they are solving all kinds of, uh, use cases. I'd say the the top use cases are on personal productivity, but also a lot of information management that can range from personal information like docs and so forth, managing your emails.[00:06:42] It also ranges out to public information that you might be interested in, but you need something to help manage the, the kind of fire hose of stuff that's coming at you. For instance, I have, um, an agent which looks at all the AI news, um, all the time. There's a lot of it and it finds the stuff that I would actually be [00:07:00] interested in, um, and I find it incredibly useful.[00:07:03] So these are agents that you can install that other people have built. Anything that you install on Dreamer, you can actually just say, I wanna start making some changes, and we'll look at that in a second. But in natural language, with the sidekicks help, you can change any of these experiences to work just the way you want them.[00:07:18] But the base layer of the system are tools. So you know, as well as anyone swyx, that any AI system is only as good as the quality of data that it can pull in and the quality of action it can take. So before we launched our beta, we worked very hard to make sure that we seeded our tools with a bunch of very high quality and powerful integrations.[00:07:39] So, you know, for instance, this is real Google search, this is actual Gmail. Um, and you can do very useful things with those. But also this is a platform for everyone. And as we got started talking to people in our alpha community, a whole bunch of sports use cases popped out and we realized if you want to build something cool for sports with ai, you need really high quality live data.[00:07:58] So look at these [00:08:00] Formula one M-L-B-N-F-L, uh, these are tools, uh, that we've built. We've done a, these are not data scraped off the web. This is a, a direct data feed integration. And because it's live and ‘cause it's high quality, you can build really powerful stuff. But tools is not something that we are just going to kind of control ourselves.[00:08:19] The platform is open for tool Builders to contribute tools that anyone on Dreamer can use. So, um, this is actually the place in the platform where I think software engineers, um, well number one, would love for you to come and play with it. Uh, but software engineers are really gonna build, um, a lot of powerful stuff into the system.[00:08:38] And we are actually sharing something for the first time on this podcast, which there is, uh, tool builders on Dreamer get paid. So if you publish a tool to the platform and a lot of agents use it, you'll actually get paid, uh, in proportion to their usage. And we'd love for folks to come and give this a try.[00:08:54] We've got good docs that help you get started and you can build things that, you know, scratch your own itch. For instance, someone built this [00:09:00] Ski Bum tool, which provides live snow conditions for a bunch of, uh, ski resorts. I'd love to show you how I've used that in a second. And also we have some tools, partners where the tools themselves are paper use.[00:09:12] So for instance, parallel web systems is a premium tool. Uh, you can do really cool stuff with it. Um, it's a a, an agentic web research tool. And that one, because it's expensive to operate, is paid on a, on a per usage basis. But if you're coming in to build agents on the platform, even the premium tools, you get a free trial.[00:09:29] So you get a chance to actually try them out, make sure that the use case is good for you before you decide to, to to sign up. So that's tools. So we have the gallery, we have tools, and then the sidekick helps us put all of this together to build agents. We do that in the agents studio. You can also do this on your phone, but if I open up Agent Studio here on Desktop psychic's, just gonna start a conversation about what you want to build together.[00:09:51] I'd love to show you one that I made recently.[00:09:53] swyx: Let's do[00:09:53] David Singleton: it.[00:09:53] Building A Conference App[00:09:53] David Singleton: Um, let's look at something that hopefully is kind of near and dear to your heart. So one of the things I love about Dreamer and this kind of moment in technology is that if you think about it. There are all these things in your life where, have you ever gone to a conference?[00:10:09] I know you have. Right? And, uh, big conferences have apps. Um, and these apps are usually built by agencies and they're, they're usually actually quite expensive to build. I've been involved in running some of these myself. And how many conferences have you been to where the app was good? Zero. Honestly.[00:10:23] swyx: Exactly. Zero,[00:10:24] David Singleton: maybe one. I, I've, I've been to one conference. That was pretty good. Wait, wait session sessions. Um, but, but the point is, they're rarely great pieces of software. Right. And they're also expensive to build, but they're, they're interesting ‘cause they're episodic, they last for this one thing. Um, and then they're, they're not relevant anymore.[00:10:43] Um,[00:10:43] swyx: and so it's the worst feeling to invest in them because, you know, it's like, it's got a limited. Date?[00:10:48] David Singleton: Absolutely. So I decided to build, uh, a conference app for your AI engineer conference. Amazing. Uh, on Dreamer. One of the things that Swix has done, uh, which I [00:11:00] thought was very forward-looking, is actually put a whole bunch of data about the conference on the webpage in an LLM readable way.[00:11:06] There's an LLMs txt file, there's a feed of all of the sessions in js, ON. So I used the data from your conference last year and built this intelligent app, uh, just by talking to our sidekick, uh, in Dreamer. So just to give you a quick tour, this is my Dream Conference app. What I always wanna do for conferences is I wanna be able to search for speakers.[00:11:28] I'm usually there because, uh, there, uh, is a speaker I care about. So, you know, SWIX, you're the speaker I care about. I can actually see here who you're on stage with. So here's, here's Greg Brockman. You've read even ai, uh, and this is his session. And look Greg and Swix for the speaker. So let's add that to my schedule.[00:11:45] Great. And then maybe there's a couple others I might see here. Like on day two, I remember there were some keynotes. So, uh, building the open agenda web, that sounds fun. So I add that to my schedule.[00:11:55] swyx: She's now CEO of Xbox.[00:11:56] David Singleton: Awesome.[00:11:57] swyx: Which is interesting. So cool. So,[00:11:59] David Singleton: so I've [00:12:00] gone through and picked out a couple of sessions that I cared about.[00:12:03] That's as far as I usually get with any conference app. But of course you've got the whole of the rest of the conference to figure out what to do. So here is where the native intelligence of, of these things you build on Dreamer can come in. So I'm gonna click guide me. So Dreamers sidekick actually parsed out the whole schedule and figured out what some of the themes are and I can choose what I'm interested in here.[00:12:23] I'm definitely interested in agents. Uh, I'm definitely interested in code generation and also reasoning in rl. So now I'm gonna say build my schedule. So what this is doing is. It's going across every time slot for the conference. And it's choosing among the things I could go to, which one it thinks is best for me based on my interests.[00:12:41] It also uses its own memory of me that's part of Dreamer, uh, to understand what I might like best. And you know, there's an LLM prompt running for each one of these time slots. So this is, it's not super fast, but it'll be done in about 30 or 40 seconds. And I'm gonna have a special custom schedule for the conference.[00:12:57] This, like I said, is my [00:13:00] dream conference app is exactly what I've always wanted and I was able to build this yesterday morning. Um, I did it between some meetings. I think I spent a total of 25 minutes of wall clock time on it. I did it over the course of a couple of hours. And, uh, here is my schedule for the conference.[00:13:15] I can see it in a calendar view. This is what I should do on Tuesday, this is what I should do on Wednesday. Oof, no conflicts, but, you know, I may not go to every single thing. And there you have it built in, you know, dreamer. So let's take a look at what the building experience actually looks like. So this is the, the actual account that I made it on.[00:13:32] Oh, of course I should say anything you build on Dreamer also works on your phone. So, uh, here is my AI engineer conference app right here on my phone. Got all the same functionality, and of course this is the best place to jump into my schedule.[00:13:46] swyx: Yeah.[00:13:46] David Singleton: Um,[00:13:46] swyx: so you could generate a podcast about it just completely multimodal, absolute thing, right?[00:13:51] To me, I mean, this is why I outsource, I mean, well, I, I posted the L-M-T-X-T, the JSON because you cannot run an engineer conference in 2025 [00:14:00] and not let engineers. Do whatever they want.[00:14:02] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:14:03] swyx: And since all conference apps suck, I'm just gonna put up a ba minimum viable app and just let people do whatever they want.[00:14:09] David Singleton: Totally. And the cool thing about this on Bremer is I published this to the gallery and you can use it so you've got one that's built to my taste of conference apps. I think it's pretty cool. But you might want something different. Yeah. In which case you just start telling the sidekick how to change it.[00:14:23] So let's just very quickly look[00:14:24] swyx: at our, what sports grid is also, you can fork it, right? That I can publish. That's right. I can publish your one and go, this is the base starter. It's, it's got good defaults, but go customize, whatever.[00:14:32] David Singleton: That's right. That's right.[00:14:33] swyx: Yeah.[00:14:33] Agent Studio Under The Hood[00:14:33] David Singleton: So let's take a look at how I actually built this.[00:14:34] This is real. So I'm gonna say make changes. This experience we're looking at now is our, uh, agent development studio. Um, like I said, you can do this on your phone as well. And in fact, this one I started out on desktop. Let's look at my actual prompts. I said, let's make an agent called AI Engineer Schedule Planner should be a custom schedule planner for the AI engineer conference.[00:14:53] I'm not gonna read this all up. You get, you get the point and it told it where to get the data from. So that was the first prompt. And actually after I gave it that [00:15:00] prompt, I actually had a simple version of this app working, um, after the sidekick took one turn. So the Sidekick is a, like a professional software engineer, and we've worked very hard to make this work and build functional apps for folks that might not have any engineering experience whatsoever.[00:15:14] So, you know, done here we have build logs that are technical, but you can hide those away. And sidekick, as it is building, will actually translate everything that is coming out of, uh, of the, the harness into English that you can actually read. And by the way, this English is in the personality of your sidekick, which is fun.[00:15:32] Um. And the way that we build agents and agent apps, it's a little different to what you might have seen in some other platforms for a couple of reasons. One, just the build process. The very first thing that Sidekick does, it understands all the agents you've got set up. It understands all the tools and it will come up with a plan for how to realize your goal, how to make sure it actually has the data and the capabilities to complete it.[00:15:54] It will occasionally refuse. If it can't do what you're asking, it will tell you I can't do that. It needs another tool. And that's a good [00:16:00] jumping off point for any of the tool builders out there to build a new tool. So it'll fi first figure out how, then it will build it, and then it will actually test it.[00:16:07] So it will actually make sure that the thing that it has generated is realizing your goal. And you probably know as well as anybody that anytime you can get any. Modern state-of-the-art coding model into a loop where it can make changes and perceive its own output and then fix bugs. Magic happens. So these builds, the first build will often take 10 to 15 minutes on Dreamer, which is a little bit longer than you might've seen on some other platforms.[00:16:31] But the first thing that it creates will work most of the time. And then of course, as you start making smaller changes, you can like ask it to tweak the UI in any way that you like. Those are much faster. And just to give you a sense, uh, for this one, here's something I asked. Put a logo, I gave it a logo file in static files.[00:16:48] Use that as the title. So for folks that actually really want to dig, uh, into a bit more detail, we've provided a powerful IDE here. So I can actually see here's the code that was generated and some pieces of the [00:17:00] code are more accessible than others, like the prompts. So this is the prompt that's used by a powerful LLM in order to do that schedule picking.[00:17:08] And I can actually read it here directly. I can edit it without having to ask the sidekick if I want to do that.[00:17:12] swyx: So this is very nice.[00:17:13] David Singleton: This is for the more, the more, uh, sophisticated users.[00:17:16] swyx: Yeah. This is other people's entire startup is prop management.[00:17:21] David Singleton: This is true. The other thing that is different about Dreamer is once you've built something here, it's ready to go.[00:17:28] We host it. So you don't have to worry about getting a database from a database provider signing up, getting API keys. You don't have to worry about your LLM provider tokens. All of that is hosted on the platform. And you can use it yourself. You can share it to the gallery for other people to, to riff on it.[00:17:46] You can also share it with your friends and coworkers to use your instance of the agent or agentic app. And we're seeing that happen a lot in our community. We've seen a whole bunch of folks who built little applications for their personal life [00:18:00] and shared them with their significant other. We've seen people who are building little productivity apps for their team at work and sharing it, uh, among them.[00:18:07] And we actually do this a lot inside of the company. So at this point we, we pretty much run the company on Dreamer agents for all kinds of important things. Uh, maybe a good example of that is, um, our wait list. People are signing up every time someone signs up for our wait list. A dreamer agent will actually research, uh, that person.[00:18:25] And we're looking for folks who are builders, not super technical to build agents and come in, uh, and give us a lot of feedback and we're prioritized bringing those people off of the wait list First,[00:18:35] swyx: just a quick question on that one is there's, it may not come up again. Do you find enrichment APIs to be useful like the ZoomInfo?[00:18:42] Uh, clear bit[00:18:43] David Singleton: enrichment is a very, uh, common use case. Um, on dreamer. Any application on Dreamer can kick off a sub-agent to do a particular task. Um, so this actually is a powerful agentic harness that runs inside of its own [00:19:00] vm. Uh, we call them sidekick tasks ‘cause they actually run in the context of the sidekick.[00:19:04] I'll talk more about Sidekick in a second and. Enrichment is a very common use case. And the cool thing about a sidekick task is that it has access to all the tools on the platform, but also public data as well. And so very frequently enrichment on our platform happens using public data that it can be found in the web.[00:19:24] There are some tools for getting people data, uh, from, uh, from various bespoke systems. And so that works pretty well. But actually, you'd be surprised. I mean, we would love if someone out there would like to build a ZoomInfo tool, we don't have one today. We'd love to see that on the platform, and I'm sure it'll be very powerful.[00:19:39] But we're also seeing that this powerful agent harness can pull a lot of data in on that note of tools that make experiences better, we're constantly adding more tools because people in the community are building them and publishing them. We review the tools carefully and then they go live for everybody.[00:19:54] Yesterday we added granola. And that was pretty cool. So I was talking to actually, uh, Sarah on my team was [00:20:00] talking to, uh, someone building on the platform this morning and they actually, they have an agentic app that they built, which is a kind of magic to-do list. So they put stuff on their to-do list and for each thing it kicks off one of these, uh, sidekick tasks to figure out how to move the ball forward thing.[00:20:14] Sometimes it'll complete it[00:20:15] swyx: entirely. Yeah.[00:20:16] David Singleton: Often by calling another agent on the platform and sometimes it just kind of researches it and helps ‘em take the first step.[00:20:21] swyx: Yeah. Do you know, this is Sam Altman's number one, ask for an AI app. It's the self-completing to-do list.[00:20:26] David Singleton: Yeah. The self-completing to-do list is something that a lot of people have built on Dreamer and are getting a lot of use out of.[00:20:32] Yeah. And, and finding it actually genuinely I shouldn't, I should, I should try that. Mm-hmm. Please do. And you'll even find some in the gallery that you can remix. So he was saying this morning that he's, he built this self completing to-do list, uh, on Dreamer already. But he connected the granola tool yesterday and now something really magical happens, which is when he says in meetings that he's gonna do a thing, it magically shows up on his to-do list and then it can magically get completed.[00:20:56] And then, as I mentioned, all the agents, all the [00:21:00] apps on Dreamer can actually work together. So our coding agent, as it builds them, does something very special where it exposes the internals of each of the experiences to the system. And then Sidekick can manipulate those to get stuff done. So he has built another agent, which he uses for recruiting.[00:21:18] It kind of keeps track of candidates and also it's got a kinda mini CRM function, so he's able to introduce candidates to each other. He told us this morning that something he'd committed to do in a meeting that was recorded on granola yesterday showed up in his magic to-do list and his magic to-do list.[00:21:34] It was like introduce a person for recruiting, used his recruiting agent to get it done.[00:21:39] swyx: Ah,[00:21:39] David Singleton: um, and this is, this is the dream. This is why we started the company. It really is the case that you can build and use these very powerful, bespoke experiences that can automate your life by working together. And I'd love to talk a little bit about how they work together.[00:21:55] Ecosystem Trust And Monetization[00:21:55] David Singleton: So obviously it's really cool to have [00:22:00] software that will work on your behalf, but it's only useful if you can trust it, right? So privacy and security is very important to us making these things accessible and. While also being trustworthy is hard. So the model that we have, which is working very well, is that the sidekick is at the core of everything here.[00:22:22] So it is both your companion, your helper, but it's also the traffic cup in the system. So when, when one agent wants to work with another agent and dreamer, it doesn't do it directly, it does it via the sidekick, well ask the sidekick to do the thing. And the sidekick understands both everything, all the expectations that have been set with me as a user about what agents can do, which tools I've given them permission to use.[00:22:45] And it will make sure that whatever is is going on is actually aligned with my own interests. And you know, that's part of the background that I bring to this problem domain. I've. Worked for years, uh, keeping very important information, safe and secure. And [00:23:00] so as we started to think about this problem, we realized that we actually had to build something that's a bit like an operating system.[00:23:06] You know, the sidekicks, like the kernel, the agents and apps are like users. Yeah. Different rings. Exactly. Because if you try to pick off just one piece of this, you can't actually make it work for people at scale. Uh, because you could build little vibe coded apps, but they're gonna grab all your data willy-nilly.[00:23:23] They won't be able to work together. You actually have to invest in the fundamental core in order to make it work well for people. And that's what we've been doing and it's, uh, it's been a lot of fun. One other thing I wanted to mention is, um, I've obviously talked about two things, tools and agentic apps.[00:23:42] We really designed Dreamer to be an ecosystem and a platform, and one of my favorite quotes about platforms, I think it's from Bill Gates, is that you can only be a platform. If you create more value for the folks participating and using the platform than, than the platform itself creates. [00:24:00] And that's our goal here.[00:24:01] So we at every step have been thinking about how do we make sure that other people are deriving even more value from Dreamer than we are? So in that vein, I already mentioned tool builders get paid and people can build agents that solve their needs and share them with others, and we are already thinking about ways that they can actually monetize those as well.[00:24:24] Against that backdrop, one of the things that we are launching today is our Builders in Residence program. So there are tons of people building really cool stuff and contributing it to the gallery already, but we've been really inspired by programs we've seen at other companies where artists might be in residence, people that are very creative.[00:24:43] And might have ideas outside of what the, the folks at the company or in the ecosystem already have. And so we are looking for creative people who have fun ideas and, you know, want to really figure out how to apply their creativity at the cutting edge [00:25:00] of technology today to come and work with us. So, uh, if you go to dreamer.com/latent space, you'll find, ooh, well, we love Latent space.[00:25:09] Uh, you'll find a link both to, uh, our tool Builder information and our builder in residence program. And for builders and residents, we'll let you in off the wait list quickly, build an agent, and then for a small number of, of the most creative folks, we're going to pay you to build agents. Uh, you can work directly with our team.[00:25:29] You know, this is like building Legos. So, you know, we've got some of the basic blocks together already, but if you need a Ron steering wheel and we don't have one already, like we'll build it for you. Yeah. Um, we really want to be inspired by, by these, uh, these builders in residence.[00:25:43] swyx: This Legos thing is pretty common as an analogy.[00:25:46] And there's a, there's a thing I call the master builder. Uh, we, the actual Lego company has master builders that they employ Yeah. To inspire people and post on socials.[00:25:56] David Singleton: That is exactly what inspired us as well. Honestly, we talked about the Lego Master [00:26:00] Builder program, so that's our builder in residence program.[00:26:02] swyx: Yeah.[00:26:03] David Singleton: Um, and then, uh, finally back on, on tools. Like I said, anyone can come in and build tools today. If you follow the latent space link dreamer.com/latent space, again, we'll get you off. Directly off the wait list. So you can build right away, you can monetize by publishing onto the platform. That's for everyone, the very best tool that gets added to the platform by mid-April.[00:26:23] Uh, we have a $10,000 prize that we want to give out really, because we just want to seed the creativity of everyone out there. So we're excited to do that.[00:26:31] swyx: Yeah. And you know, uh, this is completely a flywheel, right? Like the more tools, the more builders, the more the third thing agents, you know, it just feeds into each other.[00:26:39] David Singleton: That's right.[00:26:39] swyx: Yeah. Just on the payments thing, because we probably won't touch on that again, but I have to ask the former CTO Stripe on payments as presumably you're using Stripe Connect.[00:26:48] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:26:48] swyx: Um. Any pain points that you're, people are very interested in agent commerce and micropayment and all these things.[00:26:55] Presumably stable coins get into a conversation at some point, but maybe not now.[00:26:58] David Singleton: Yeah, we are [00:27:00] really, really excited about e agent commerce. The first step we are taking is help people in the world who have never been able to build these kind of experiences and software before to build stuff that meets their passions, share it with the world and get paid.[00:27:14] So that's all commerce that happens on our platform, and so we don't need anything new to facilitate that. Stripe Connect has existed for quite a while and is the perfect solution for this kind of stuff, so, um, we we're excited about that. First and foremost, however. A lot of the things that people are already doing on Dreamer, we just talked about a self-completing to-do list.[00:27:34] A lot of the ways that you want to complete to-dos is by actually closing the loop in the real world, and that's going to involve the exchange of value. So we have some folks that are building tools already that actually do have money move in order to, to complete that, that loop. So far, we just want to be open and agnostic to all the protocols out there.[00:27:54] I honestly think this moment in time is a little bit like the early web. So I personally started coding as a kid [00:28:00] and I think I got access to the internet in about 19 95, 19 96. And back then, uh, the web existed, you know, HTTP was a protocol, but there were also other protocols I was using all the time, like Gopher and UUCP and uh, various others.[00:28:15] So the point is like the web, HTTP and HTML. Was just one among many protocols. And of course it became the winner and it's awesome. Yeah. Um, but the others were also kind of interesting and viable at the time as well. And I think the world of agentic commerce is like this right now. Also,[00:28:30] swyx: acp.[00:28:31] David Singleton: Acp, exactly.[00:28:32] All the, all the cps, you know, on Dreamer. We hope that folks will build tools that kinda make use of all of these things, but I'm sure that at a certain point. One or two will emerge as the winners, and then we'll be able to build like really deep support in,[00:28:44] swyx: yeah. This is like maybe a complete tangent, but I do think about how a lot of these companies in AI companies in particular have to switch from c based to usage based because of course, but then, then they end up, end up having to sort of [00:29:00] obscure the margins a little bit and then they inventing end up inventing their equivalent of rob robots.[00:29:04] David Singleton: Mm-hmm.[00:29:04] swyx: Uh, where they're like, well, okay, well every company should have their own currency. And it's, it's like very short lead to a token.[00:29:11] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:29:11] swyx: Or, and I'm like, okay, well where does this end? I can't really play out the next step as to like, is this chaos? Is this,[00:29:18] David Singleton: yeah.[00:29:18] swyx: Okay.[00:29:18] David Singleton: Well, I think it is kind of like the wild west.[00:29:21] I don't mean that in a completely, it's all completely disorganized way, but there's just so many things that could happen from here. The Overton window is very wide, right? Not far how this might land. And I'm just very excited to be building a platform that can take advantage of all of those opportunities and we're just gonna be there.[00:29:36] Uh, working for our users to make sure that things that emerge work,[00:29:39] swyx: you're gonna own the consumers, you're gonna be up the OS for the app store for everything.[00:29:43] David Singleton: So one of the ways to think about this is, um, dreamer actually uses all of the state-of-the-art models as a user. You don't have to think about should I be using, you know, Opus four six, or should I be using the five four model from [00:30:00] OpenAI?[00:30:00] We are continually doing evals and so forth to make sure that the best things are there for you. You can just build on the platform and know that as the world ships around, you're gonna get the right stuff for you. Um, and I think that's something that is needed to actually have folks take advantage of this technology at scale.[00:30:19] I'd love to show you another example of something I built.[00:30:21] swyx: Let's do it.[00:30:22] David Singleton: This is another example of software that just lasts for a certain moment in time. So recently I went on a ski trip with a bunch of friends,[00:30:31] ski[00:30:31] David Singleton: Bum. Uh, so it uses ski bum. Yes. I went on a ski trip to Big Sky. I'd never been there before.[00:30:38] And I made this little intelligent app for us. And you can see it says it's loading big sky conditions. So it's actually calling the Ski Bum tool that I just showed you, which is, uh, published in our, uh, in our gallery. So what is this? This is a little app that was just for our weekend trip. It shows the current status of all the lifts of Big Sky.[00:30:54] Using that tool from the ecosystem, it shows the forecast for the upcoming weekend. It shows our [00:31:00] accommodation. This is just like where my group was staying. This is just for us and also a bunch of dining information that one of our friends, uh, put together who, who's an expert on Big Sky. So I was able to take this app, share the link with my friends.[00:31:12] They weren't on Dreamer yet, just send it to them on iMessage and they get a version they can use on their phone. And of course, here's the real kicker. So I've been on ski trips before and other weekend adventures with my friends. Yeah, people pay for different things and at the end of the weekend it's always a pain to figure out who needs to pay, who to settle up.[00:31:29] So we use this during the weekend. We added all of our expenses in here. Uh, too close are it's drill data. It's only too closely. And then at the end of the trip, we press split. And we're, we settled up and we're done. So there's another dreamer. This was all through dreamer. So the, the actual payment? No, no.[00:31:47] We, it happened because, because we paid for stuff in the real world, it was like, okay, this person needs to pay that person 20 bucks. Right? Right. This person already paid in that. Right. So it just helped us all settle up. We didn't move the money on Dreamer. You could do that. And in fact, if you're a tool builder [00:32:00] thinking about this and getting excited, like come build a tool to do that stuff.[00:32:02] We really think of our tool builders as design partners.[00:32:05] swyx: Yeah. I got, I got the tool. Uh, what, like, I hate, I use Bank of America. I hate bank, I hate the app. Mm-hmm. I hate the web. All banking websites just horrible.[00:32:13] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:32:13] swyx: So just build me, like build a thing on top of Plaid.[00:32:15] David Singleton: Yeah. Right. And then just So[00:32:17] swyx: five code by banking app,[00:32:18] David Singleton: there's already a tool for that.[00:32:20] Oh. So, um, attain Finance is a tool, a builder in our community built. Okay. Um, and it uses a secure system like Plaid. To access your, uh, financial data and you can build powerful personal finance agents on Dreamer today using this tool. And like I said, we review tools carefully. So when bringing Attain Finance onto the platform, we did actually quite a detailed security review with that company to make sure that if folks build stuff with it, it's, it's gonna work well.[00:32:49] So yeah, check that out. I think, uh, I'm, I'm pretty certain it connects to Bank of America. So you'll be able to build the, the app that you wanted already?[00:32:55] swyx: Yeah. There's a couple of points I wanted to sort of dive in on, maybe highlight to folks, [00:33:00] because I, obviously, I spent more time with Dreamers. So we're making a point where you choose on behalf of your users because they're meant to be consumers.[00:33:07] So maybe less technical,[00:33:08] David Singleton: right?[00:33:08] swyx: But obviously people can, how users can override. If you read that's, but it's not just lms, it is also the, the transcription. It, it's like all, like there's, there's a first party curated set of here's the house opinion. That's right. On what?[00:33:21] David Singleton: That's[00:33:21] swyx: right. The thing is, that's right.[00:33:22] Is what's the list? Is there like,[00:33:24] David Singleton: yeah, so actually if you look in the tool gallery, the first party kind of curated set are all the ones that have these grayscale icons. So we have a built in tool for image understanding, for image generation, for RSS, exploration, text to speech and so forth.[00:33:38] swyx: Recipes.[00:33:39] David Singleton: Uh, we actually do have a built in recipes tool.[00:33:41] It turns out that a lot of people in our alpha wanted to do stuff for cooking. Yeah. Um, and you know, you can scrape the web to get good recipes, but we were able to quite quickly find a good repository of recipes. It works great here. Yeah.[00:33:55] Stable Tool Interfaces[00:33:55] David Singleton: So the point behind these though is that we'll keep the interfaces stable, so they'll always work.[00:34:00] But you know, the best translation model and, you know, there are people using this translation tool to translate Chinese podcasts into English. It's, it's pretty powerful. It can deal with very long text, but the best translation tool today might be different from the best translation tool sometime next year.[00:34:15] And we're just gonna make sure that that translation tool is always pretty close to state of the art. So you can build something and you know it's gonna continue to work well. Of course, some of our tools are branded. You may actually have a preferred way of buying groceries, like maybe you prefer Instacart and that's great.[00:34:29] You can use the Instacart tool specifically.[00:34:31] swyx: Yeah.[00:34:32] Partnerships And Ecosystem[00:34:32] swyx: Your partnerships, uh, I mean, I don't know if you ever hit of partnerships, but this is gonna be a bonanza for anyone on to do deals.[00:34:38] David Singleton: We have an amazing person who, uh, works on all of our partnerships. Um, and it's part of what you have to do to build a platform like this that's gonna work for people.[00:34:46] Like, we've gone and done that. Schlep has a lot of work, one talks lots of different companies, um, in order to make sure that you've got good tools at the core.[00:34:54] swyx: Yeah.[00:34:54] David Singleton: And then of course, because we're open to tool builders contributing to the platform, this is only gonna get better and better and [00:35:00] better.[00:35:00] swyx: Yeah.[00:35:01] Agent Lab Routing Layer[00:35:01] swyx: One observation I have this, this is gonna master a thesis I've been pursuing, which is, uh, what I've been calling an agent lab[00:35:05] David Singleton: mm-hmm.[00:35:06] swyx: Where you sort of different than a model lab in, in, in the sense that you never train your own models, but you are the router evaluation layer, ex subject domain expert for choosing between, uh, models.[00:35:18] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:35:18] swyx: And you're explicitly doing these things. And so like in my sort of construction, every agent lab does some version of this where like, here's the image understanding endpoint and we will route for you and don't worry about it. Yeah. Sally, I think it's kind of cool.[00:35:32] David Singleton: I, I think it makes total sense. Um, and again, to make this work for folks that don't follow the AI news every day, it's an actually, it's a, it's a really important thing to do.[00:35:42] Yeah. And it, it's been, it's been a real pleasure. I mean, I'm a, I'm personally a total geek for this stuff. I love it. And being able to go and dive into all those details in order to make it work well for other people. It's a true pleasure. I cannot imagine working at anything else right now. It's just so much fun.[00:35:56] swyx: The tricky part is multimodality when some of these things do [00:36:00] merge.[00:36:00] David Singleton: Mm-hmm.[00:36:01] swyx: And you are, you're sort of, this is your imposing structure on things that fundamentally don't want to be structured. And so sometimes that might work against you, but for 99% of these cases, this is fine.[00:36:10] David Singleton: Yeah. I mean, I think it's gonna be very interesting to see how the, the, the world matures because a lot of the power of dreamer is the ability to kick off these subagents, so these powerful agent harnesses, which can actually change how they work based on the data.[00:36:25] I actually think that we will be able to. Kind of keep up with and stay at the forefront of the changing landscape of how tools and systems work together. And that's, that's new. You know, software didn't used to work like this and now it does. Um, so even, even just figuring out how to design the right pri to make that possible has itself be a lot of fun.[00:36:44] Builders Can Publish Tools[00:36:44] swyx: This is, is a sort of maybe two part question that why can't streamer make its own tools? And then why don't you let you builders maybe stand up their own routing group? I call this a routing group, right? Like where it's like collect Yeah. Things.[00:36:58] David Singleton: So two things, to [00:37:00] some extent, dreamer does make its own tools in that agents appear to the system as tools.[00:37:05] So they can be, they can be used to accomplish things. So you can build an agent that is essentially a tool. Yeah. Um, and it it,[00:37:12] swyx: which is to me very useful for reuse.[00:37:14] David Singleton: Right.[00:37:14] swyx: Right. Exactly. ‘cause I, I like, this is the way I like it. Now my next five apps, I don't want to do this whole series of back and forth again.[00:37:20] David Singleton: Right.[00:37:21] swyx: Yeah.[00:37:21] David Singleton: Um. Then at the tool layer of the system, it's open to anyone. So it's actually quite powerful and flexible. So if you wanted to add a tool, which was, uh, imagine that you were training your own foundation model, Swyx. That might be fun. And imagine you wanted people to be able to play with, I don't know, maybe you make like, you know, nano chat or whatever and you want to Yeah.[00:37:42] Let people play with your own nano chat and see how I change themselves.[00:37:44] swyx: Now.[00:37:45] David Singleton: You could, you could publish a tool that is Nano Chat and it nano image generation behind a tool, and it could be your own writer if you wanted to. I see. And honestly, if that's the kind of thing that gets you excited as a builder, please come and do it.[00:37:57] Like we, we really are [00:38:00] believers in this idea that we aren't going to figure out every single detail ourselves. We're gonna make sure it's a safe and fun place to build this stuff, but we're really open to these ideas coming from other people. Um, and so I'd like nothing more than you come in and build a tool that does some of that cool stuff that you, that you have in mind.[00:38:15] swyx: Yeah. Awesome.[00:38:16] David Singleton: And just as a reminder, if you'd like to do that, the way to find the links is dreamer.com/latent space. Um, and for a limited time on that page, um, anyone who's listening to this podcast will also get directly off of our wait list. Uh, it's quite long right now. We are working hard to bring Zika.[00:38:32] Wait, so skip the wait list.[00:38:33] swyx: You know, I think, I think that's fantastic. I, I think it's, it is really sort of probuild way to do it. I wanted to jump back to the, the bar. Yeah. You know, you know, I get excited about this.[00:38:41] David Singleton: Yes. Okay. Let's set it back in there.[00:38:43] swyx: Like, let's, you know, this is the engineer podcast that's get[00:38:46] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:38:46] swyx: As technical as you can.[00:38:47] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:38:47] swyx: On everything you've built, like have a show off.[00:38:50] David Singleton: Yeah. Okay.[00:38:51] Under The Hood Debugging[00:38:51] David Singleton: So let's go wild in the aisles in the Asian studio. So as you can see, over on the left here is a conversation with the sidekick where you ask it what to do and it will explain in English that anyone can understand what's going on.[00:39:03] But, um, if you want to pull back the covers and look under the hood, um, if you're, uh, an engineer like me, then we have this, uh, this kind of debug drawer at the bottom. So you can see the full build logs here, but you can actually also dig in and see the files and prompts that have been generated. Uh, you can upload files from your computer in static files.[00:39:24] Um,[00:39:24] swyx: very important,[00:39:25] David Singleton: uh, indeed. You can actually read the prompts that have been generated for you. We intentionally put an example in here just that you can see what the format looks like. And then, you know, we already looked at this one that was generated for this particular, um, app, but if you actually want to bring the code out of Dreamer and work on your own local machine, you can.[00:39:45] So at the core of everything here is an SDK with a powerful command line interface and we built that first. It's actually possible to build agents on Dreamer without talking to the sidekick. You can write code with your fingers on a keyboard if you want to. I know that's very [00:40:00] antiquated, not, but actually this can be a lot of fun.[00:40:02] So if you wanna pull it out onto your laptop, you can use our, our CLI and, uh, you can edit it in cursor or in cloud code. You know, you don't have to use our sidekick. And the CLI actually has full access to the rest of the platform with you as the user. So, you know, obviously it is, uh, secure and privacy sensitive, and this is a way that, um, some of our most technical builders do build stuff on the platform.[00:40:24] The really cool thing is the side cake. When it's in coding mode, it uses exactly the same CLI. So the way it. Build stuff on Dreamer is using the same tools that you might as an engineer. Um, and that's actually a very powerful abstraction because it turns out that the right way to give a lot of context to agents to use CLIs is to write great documentation.[00:40:46] Make sure that all of the things that you could do are actually possible. And guess what? That makes it a delightful developer experience for real heroes as well.[00:40:53] swyx: Yeah. So that's pretty cool. We've been telling developers to do this and they ignore this until now they have to for content.[00:40:58] David Singleton: I, I've been saying this for a [00:41:00] long time.[00:41:00] Uh, we actually Stripe docs.[00:41:02] swyx: I mean, come on. Absolutely. Come on.[00:41:03] David Singleton: Absolutely. But actually, I was chatting with folks at Stripe last week and saying, Hey, you gotta make the Stripe CLI actually tell agents what they can do on Stripe because that way they're gonna use more stuff on Stripe. I think this is a real trend for the entire industry.[00:41:16] swyx: Yeah.[00:41:16] David Singleton: So we, we've been doing that.[00:41:17] swyx: To me, this, this download and, uh, GI push mm-hmm. Everything is complete confidence in that you're not hacking it. Right. Because there's other, let's call them AI builder platforms that impose their stack on you and if you, if you, and so therefore they don't allow you to do this because they cannot.[00:41:34] Right. ‘cause they, they impose some degrees of freedom, uh, restrictions so that they can get it to work. Yours is a fully general like VM running the full code. Correct. Do whatever you want. Correct. Any language you want. Correct. Yeah.[00:41:46] David Singleton: Correct. Well, in terms of language, if you use the SDK, you could build stuff in other languages.[00:41:51] We've actually found that TypeScript is the best language for building these experiences. Yes. Because it's strongly tight. So you find out at compile time if you've made mistakes [00:42:00] and there's nothing better than getting in. A coding agent in a loop where it can see its mistakes and ask them. So TypeScript is the language that everything gets built in by default here.[00:42:08] swyx: Did And did you see that TypeScript overtook Python? I did. I did. Yeah.[00:42:12] David Singleton: And for what it's worth, when we started the company, we started writing stuff in Python, and I love Python. Um, if I do, uh, a vendor code, I always write it in Python. It's my favorite language as a developer with my fingers on the keyboard.[00:42:23] Um, but TypeScript is an amazing language for AI because there's tons of training data in the models, um, and it's strongly tight. And actually at the company we built most of the stack in TypeScript, and we have this amazing property, which is, we have type safety all the way from the database to the front end.[00:42:40] And there's nothing better for working with coding agents than being able to have them check their correctness, compile time. So the same ideas behind building the company's code base, we've put into the agent SDK here as well.[00:42:51] swyx: Yeah. Do you know if you'd use one of those tools, like Prisma or whatever, or is it Tool Lab for you?[00:42:55] David Singleton: We, we actually have crafted most of our own tools. Um. For [00:43:00] instance, we had LLM Driven Code Review, uh, before the thing that got published from philanthropic this week. You know, we, we've been doing this stuff, uh, on our own bat[00:43:07] swyx: email, we'll pay $25 per review.[00:43:09] David Singleton: We, we pay a lot less than that. However, I hear that those reviews are excellent and possibly worth $25.[00:43:14] swyx: Yeah. You know, it's an option. Right. It's good, good to have it.[00:43:17] David Singleton: Just to give you a tour of some other stuff here. So, um, I can also see all the versions. Yeah. Um, this is not gi, this is not gi, this is built into dreamer. I can see all the versions that have been pushed before. Why is it[00:43:27] swyx: not gi?[00:43:28] David Singleton: It's not gi because we can make it work more efficiently than Git.[00:43:32] And we actually, we do some work behind the scenes to kind of understand what's in each of these versions. Yeah. Um,[00:43:37] swyx: so one of the things I'm pursuing, and I have a lot of thesis, right? Mm-hmm. One of the thesis is like, does GI go away? Does GitHub go away? And like, what, what is the active reinvent[00:43:46] David Singleton: you for, for what it's worth to some extent.[00:43:48] And anything you build, there's a lot of path dependency. If we started over, we might make this gi There's, uh, you know, within the company we use, uh. For our, you know, platform source code. And we like it and it [00:44:00] works well with coding agents as well. The very first versions of this, we wanted to be able to make it possible for the sidekick to manipulate it easily.[00:44:06] Um, and this, this was an expedient way to do it.[00:44:08] swyx: Yeah.[00:44:08] Workflows Logs And Databases[00:44:08] David Singleton: Um, you can also see all the activity that has happened in the workflows that you build. A lot of agents, you'll build on Dreamer, do things in the background, so they run on triggers. These are stimuli from the outside to kick them off, and this is a nice way to see all of the things that might have kicked off your agent.[00:44:24] You know, you can have an agent that kicks off on a webhook, so you can plug it into external systems. You can have an agent that runs when you receive certain emails that match filters, including LLM filters. And so here you can see, oh, when did it run? What did it do? You know, if I open up one of these guide me prompts or guide me, uh, events.[00:44:41] Oh my can see God. Well, I told you it was calling an LLM for every one of those time slots. Here's all of the LLM calls, here's the actual prompts.[00:44:49] swyx: And you don't mind exposing all of this, right?[00:44:51] David Singleton: No. We want builders to see what's going on under the hood. It's haiku to,[00:44:53] swyx: okay. Yeah. So,[00:44:54] David Singleton: okay. Right now that one was haiku.[00:44:56] Like I said, we work with all the models and sidekick will actually pick the best one [00:45:00] for the job. And you saw that was pretty high quality and pretty fast. So Haiku four five is the one that it picked for that job. Exactly. Uh, we also have logs, as I mentioned, there's a database spun up on demand for every, uh, agent.[00:45:12] You don't have to go and figure out how to do your own hosting. This is a SQL Light. This is a SQL Light database. Yeah. Um, it's a multi-user SQL light database. And then, uh, but, but each one is you, you get a database that is unique to this agent. But then if you share the agent with multiple people, we take care of like who are the owners in each row?[00:45:31] And all of that stuff is just there outta the box. Um,[00:45:34] swyx: and again, in-house?[00:45:35] David Singleton: In-house.[00:45:36] swyx: Oh my God.[00:45:37] David Singleton: Yeah. Um, well we do work with a bunch of infrastructure providers, but the technology for how to manipulate this is in-house. Fun fact. We actually did a lot of our own infrastructure development early on at the company and realized we need to spend our energy in the stuff that we're uniquely doing in the world.[00:45:53] So we're very delighted to partner with a bunch of great designer and some of this stuff. And then finally, um, I mentioned that agentic apps agents [00:46:00] expose all of their internals to the system so the psychic can manipulate them and use them just like a user can. So you can see how it's decided to break this problem up into functions.[00:46:09] Some of the functions, the ones with the little I here are exported. That means that there's probably the visible from outside. Exactly. And others are internal. And if you want to, you can dig right in here and call individual functions and see what happens. But mostly. You don't need to think about that at all.[00:46:24] Yeah. Uh, you can keep that little drawer closed and you can talk to your sidekick and build really powerful and enchanting experiences.[00:46:30] swyx: Yeah. I mean, to me, like showing this gives the engineer a complete mental model of what you've done and what you can do with it. Yeah. For example, the first thing I, I, I look for.[00:46:39] A mental checklist of things, right? Like is off in the database, off looks like it's not right. So that's a separate layer. That's probably me means it's hard to do multi-user apps on the same app, right?[00:46:50] David Singleton: So you actually, we've solved that. So, um, see, yes, the platform builds in off, so you as a user sign into the platform, if you're using an [00:47:00] agent that was published by someone else, then your identity is, is kind of taken care of by the system.[00:47:05] And when you query the database, you're gonna get the stuff that is for you. Unless the builder specifically said, this is public data that everyone should see. So they, they actually get a chance to think about that. And again, sidekick can guide you through building, uh, agents and apps that work that way.[00:47:19] So you're right, that's another thing that people have to think about when they're trying to figure out how to build software experiences on Dreamer. You, it's built in. You talk to the sidekick as if it were a human being about what you want and that's what you get. So, you know, my, my Big Sky app that I just showed you that was designed for multiple people to use it.[00:47:38] And of course the things that we were putting in as expenses were supposed to be visible to everybody, and I just told the sidekick that's the way I wanted it. Uh, but by default, if I built an app like that, the data from each user would not been visible to the others.[00:47:49] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, this is, I presume this is a mood question, but basically you've had to build your own coding agent, right?[00:47:55] Which is sidekick slash whatever is in Inside Psychic. Obviously there's a lot of [00:48:00] people with a lot of desire for cloud code and Code X and attachment to it. Mm-hmm. I know under the hood data basically reduced to a loop, but like, would you let people use cloud coding and Code X or is the harness too specialized?[00:48:12] David Singleton: Yeah. If you, if you want to use, um, cloud code and Code X, then you go down here. Yeah. Hit get the S St K. And we even say this right here, edits your heart's content Z cursor code.[00:48:22] swyx: Like people want to use it inside of Ick, right? Yeah. They want to switch the engine.[00:48:26] David Singleton: Yeah.[00:48:26] swyx: That's the coding engine.[00:48:27] David Singleton: Yeah. We are not doing that right now.[00:48:29] Um, you know, again, the goal really is abstract the complexity. Yeah. Um, because the real target for. Building agentic apps is folks who can't do this already today. I can't tell you how many users in our community I've spoken to who are like Dreamer has changed my life because I used to have all these ideas.[00:48:50] If only I could find an engineer to help me implement them, I'd be able to get them done. They're free, and now I can talk to my sidekick and, and get it built. I think that's like really how we think [00:49:00] about the people that should get a ton of value and fun, um, out of the platform. And so they're not asking to be able to plug in their their own, you know, coding agent.[00:49:11] And for those folks, the opportunity is massive. If you've never been able to do stuff in code, now you can build stuff for you, for your friends, for your family, for your coworkers. And also there's a huge opportunity for folks who do build stuff in code to actually contribute to this ecosystem. So that's how we think about it.[00:49:28] swyx: Yeah. Amazing.[00:49:28] Personalization And Memory[00:49:28] swyx: That's most of what I wanted to cover Dreamer wise. I think personalization and memory yeah. Is probably like the single most important job of, uh, of the os. Maybe we could talk about that and then I'll, I wanted to zoom out on company building stuff.[00:49:40] David Singleton: Yeah, yeah. Sounds good.[00:49:41] swyx: Yeah. So how do you handle memory?[00:49:43] What, yeah, what have you found? What have you tried and failed?[00:49:45] David Singleton: Yeah. Okay. So, uh, first of all, at the core of dreamer is the sidekick. The sidekick gets to know you and it builds up a memory about you over time, and that turns out to be very important. So Dreamer, that's

Have a product challenge around retention? Quick intro chat → professorgame.com/chat Leif Sorensen reveals why most corporate learning games fail. We discuss the "magic powder" fallacy, where companies try to cram too many behavioral frameworks into a single experience. Leif breaks down his process for building AI-generated learning games at Actee and explains why focusing on the transfer of learning is the real secret to changing behavior. The episode also explores the post-COVID failure of traditional LMS platforms and how facilitators can run better sessions by focusing on player engagement instead of memorizing game content. Leif Sørensen is the founder and owner of Actee, a global platform using games to develop soft skills and support learning and change in organizations. He works closely with companies, consultants, and learning professionals to design engaging, research-based learning game experiences. Leif is a frequent speaker and podcast host, focusing on gamification, leadership, and how games can make complex topics easier to understand and act on. Rob Alvarez is Head of Engagement Strategy, Europe at The Octalysis Group (TOG), a leading gamification and behavioral design consultancy. A globally recognized gamification strategist and TEDx speaker, he founded and hosts Professor Game, the #1 gamification podcast, and has interviewed hundreds of global experts. He designs evidence-based engagement systems that drive motivation, loyalty, and results, and teaches LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and gamification at top institutions including IE Business School, EFMD, and EBS University across Europe, the Americas, and Asia.   Guest Links and Info Website: Actee.com LinkedIn: Leif Sorensen Instagram: @acteeglobal Spotify: The Learning Edge - Gamification and L&D   Links to episode mentions: Proposed guest: Sune Gudiksen Recommended book: Transfer of Learning by Robert E. Haskell Favorite game: Derby   Lets's do stuff together! Let's chat about your gamification project Start Your Community on Skool for Free YouTube LinkedIn Instagram Facebook Ask a question

Hey Voices from the Bench community! Jessica Love here, sending a shoutout from Utah! If you're passionate about creating natural, beautiful smiles—but want to simplify your workflow without sacrificing aesthetics—this is for you. I'm honored to be part of Ivoclar's development team introducing a powerful new stain and glaze system featuring Structure Paste, IPS e.max Ceram Art. Create stunning depth and lifelike color in as little as one firing. Let's continue to innovate, simplify, and create meaningful change—one smile at a time. Elvis actually made it down to the exhibition halls this year — and hyperDENT from FOLLOW-ME! Technology was everywhere. Booth after booth, people were talking milling strategies, templates, and workflows. It felt like a full-on CAM takeover. Their Milling Roadmap scavenger hunt had attendees bouncing between Axsys, Imagine, D.O.F., and Roland collecting stamps like responsible adults… Responsible adults chasing a bright orange folding electric hyperDENT scooter. That's what we love about the FOLLOW-ME! team — world-class CAM engineers talking microns and validation protocols one minute, then ripping around Lab Day the next. Serious about precision. Not too serious about themselves. Big shoutout for bringing the brains — and the electric horsepower. Come see and talk to Elvis and Barb at all these amazing shows in 2026* Dental Lab Association of Texas Meeting in Dallas Apr 9-11 https://members.dlat.org/ exocad Insights in Mallorca, Spain Apr 30 - May 1 https://exocad.com/insights-2026 Live from the Ivoclar stage at LMT Lab Day Chicago 2026, Elvis and Barb sits down with two very different innovators shaping the future of the dental lab world. First up is industry veteran Rob Fletcher, who shares the story behind ACES (Automated Case Entry Software)—a system designed to eliminate one of the biggest bottlenecks in dental labs: manually entering handwritten prescriptions. Drawing on years of lean manufacturing experience running labs like Knight Dental Group and Bayshore Dental Studio, Rob explains how combining OCR and AI can read RX forms, learn lab terminology, and automate case entry directly into an LMS. The result? Faster workflows, fewer data entry headaches, and one less department that labs have to constantly hire and retrain. Then the conversation shifts to collaboration and innovation as Don Bell and Andreas Klie discuss a new partnership between Ivoclar and Panthera Dental. They break down how Panthera's Fusion Bar technology works with Ivoclar materials to simplify full-arch workflows while improving precision, aesthetics, and efficiency. The team also dives into the education behind the technology, the launch of the Panthera Academy, and how collaboration between companies—and listening to technicians—helps push the industry forward. Hey, listeners—ever wonder what Elvis is doing when he's not recording Voices from the Bench? He's a client rep for Derby Dental Laboratory, out in the field every day doing chairside visits and building relationships. His job is simple—keep doctors happy and keep them coming back. And he couldn't do it without iCortica. Right from his phone, Elvis can see sales, remake rates, account notes, risks, and cross-sell opportunities—even before he walks through the door. No spreadsheets. No surprises. Just the info he needs to grow accounts. Stop digging for data and start taking action. Head to icortica.com and schedule your demo today. Join us at exocad Insights 2026, happening April 30–May 1, 2026, on the stunning island of Mallorca, Spain. This two-day event features powerhouse keynotes, hands-on workshops, live software demos, and top-tier industry showcases—all in one unforgettable setting. Barb and Elvis will be on site bringing you exclusive interviews, plus don't miss the FIRST 5k run on the coast! And of course, cap it all off with the legendary exoGlam Night under the stars. Tickets are limited. Visit exocad.com/insights-2026 and use code VFTBPalma15 for 15% off. In today's dental labs, reliability isn't optional—it's essential. That's why so many labs trust Roland DGSHAPE milling solutions—true workhorses known for precision, durability, and dependable performance day after day. Now Roland is taking digital denture production even further with the Elevate Denture Solution, including compatibility with Ivotion Denture System from Ivoclar. This validated workflow gives labs a powerful way to produce premium digital dentures with confidence and consistency. Built on the trusted DWX milling platform, the Elevate Denture Solution allows labs to expand their capabilities while continuing to rely on the same dependable technology that keeps production running smoothly. Learn more about DWX Milling Solutions and the new Elevate Denture Solution at rolanddental.com.Special Guests: Andreas Klie, Don Bell, and Rob Fletcher.

For 30 years now, colleges have relied on the Learning Management System, or LMS, as a key portal for professors and students to teach and learn. It's a tool that has helped colleges adapt to online learning and bring digital tools to classroom teaching. But generative AI seems poised to disrupt the LMS. And it's unclear whether the LMS will evolve—or be replaced altogether. For this episode, Jeff and Michael talk with a pioneer of the technology, Matthew Pittinsky, about the lessons of past moments of tech disruption like the smartphone and cloud computing and about what could be different this time. This episode is made with support from Ascendium Education Group. Relevant Links The LMS at 30: From Course Management to Learning Management (At Last), by Matthew Pittinsky in OnTech. LMS at 30 Part 2: Learning Management in the AI Era, by Matthew Pittinsky in OnTech. “Pygmalion in the Classroom: Teacher Expectation and Pupils' Intellectual Development,” by Robert Rosenthal and Lenore Jacobson “Two-Sigma Tutoring: Separating Science Fiction from Science Fact,” by Paul T. von Hippel in Education Next. Chapters 0:00 - Intro 1:34 - How the LMS Became Key Infrastructure at Colleges 3:04 - What Was the Sales Pitch When the LMS First Emerged? 5:15 - Why Blackboard Bought Up So Many Competitors 7:36 - AI Will Disrupt LMS Even Though Previous Tech Didn't 10:57 - Could AI Can Bring ‘Hogwarts Magical Study Aids'? 12:22 - Is the LMS Needed In an Age of AI? 14:14 - Should LMS Providers Build Guardrails to Prevent Cheat-Bots? 18:25 - What Lessons From the Past Can Help Respond to AI? 19:52 - A New Leader at Blackboard 21:06 - Sponsor Break 22:00 - How Faculty Are Key to Change 28:03 - Why Change From AI Might Be Discipline-Specific 34:50 - Lightning Round With Matt Pittinsky Connect with Michael Horn: Sign Up for the The Future of Education Newsletter Website LinkedIn X (Twitter) Threads   Connect with Jeff Selingo: Dream School: Finding the College That's Right for You Sign Up for the Next Newsletter Website X (Twitter) Threads LinkedIn Connect with Future U: Twitter YouTube Threads Instagram Facebook LinkedIn   Submit a question and if we answer it on air we'll send you Future U. swag! Sign up for Future U. emails to get special updates and behind-the-scenes content.