Podcasts about gina it

The amazing Gina Conley from MamasteFit joins Meagan today to answer your questions all about perinatal fitness! Gina is a birth doula, perinatal fitness trainer, and founder of MamasteFit. ​​In partnership with her sister, Roxanne, who is a labor and delivery nurse and student-midwife, MamasteFit is a place for women to find education courses and fitness programs to be their strongest selves during each stage of motherhood. Gina shares her expertise on how exercise affects babies during pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum. She also touches on topics like when to start prenatal exercise, what to do if you didn't exercise before pregnancy, how late into pregnancy you can exercise, weightlifting, and which movements to incorporate to create more space in the pelvis. Gina's comprehensive prenatal fitness book, Training for Two, will be released in September 2024. It is a fantastic resource for all pregnant women!Link to Gina's Book: Training for TwoMamasteFit WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 01:00 Review of the Week03:59 Is it bad to exercise during pregnancy? 09:00 How will exercise affect my baby's development? 13:40 Better pregnancies, better birth outcomes16:23 What do I do if I wasn't active before pregnancy?19:30 Movements to incorporate20:59 Three pelvic levels 23:19 The mid-pelvis and outlet25:56 Being told that your pelvis is too small30:36 How late in pregnancy is okay to work out?32:31 When is it too late to start exercising during pregnancy?34:43 Postpartum fitness39:20 Weightlifting and pregnancy45:51 Training for TwoMeagan: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the show. We are going to be talking about prenatal fitness today with the one and only Gina Conley. Gina is the founder of MamasteFit, a prenatal fitness training company based out in North Carolina. Gina is a fitness trainer specializing in pre and post-natal fitness and a birth doula. She combines her expertise in both to prepare her clients for a strong pregnancy and birth. Fitness in general is one of my all-time favorite things to do and talk about. I do notice a difference when I'm not moving my body, but when it comes to pregnancy, there are a lot of questions surrounding fitness. Is it safe? When is it okay to start? Is it really okay to start later on? How to start? And so much more. I can't wait to dive in on all of the amazing information that Gina is going to share after the Review of the Week. 01:00 Review of the WeekMeagan: Just a reminder, if you have not left a review, I would love for you to do so. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, Facebook, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Today's review is by Janae Rachelle. It says, “The Best There Is.” It says, “I am so happy I found this podcast. After having two prior C-sections, I was convinced I would have to have another C-section for my birth this November. I feel empowered and educated and hopeful I can do this. Thank you for all of the true facts and the safe space where we can all talk about our birth trauma and space where we don't sound ‘crazy' for wanting to do something God created our bodies to do.”Thank you, Janae Rachelle, for leaving that review. You are right. This is that space. This is the space where we do talk about all of the crazy things, where we talk about the trauma, where we talk about the things where in the outside world if we were to discuss them, people would and sometimes do look at us like we may be crazy. But Women of Strength, if you are wanting to pursue a VBAC, if you are wanting to learn about the evidence about VBAC, this is definitely the place. All of these stories here are going to share so much information, guidance, facts, and all of the things, and definitely leave you feeling inspired. 03:59 Is it bad to exercise during pregnancy? Meagan: Okay, it's been so fun. We've actually had just a couple of returning guests from the show who have also been on 2-3 years down the road. Before we started recording, Gina was like, “I just had someone say that they listened to my episode that was on your podcast before”, which was 3 years ago. It's fun to see that people one, are still listening all the way back to 3 years ago and then two, have you back on the show. So welcome. Gina: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Meagan: Yes. It's such an honor. You know that I just love you to pieces. I'm so excited to talk about fitness, prenatal, postpartum, and all of the things today because this really is a topic that as a first-time mom, I didn't really know much about. When I was first pregnant with my daughter who is now 12, I was just determined. I was like, I'm going to run. I'm going to run a half marathon. This is going to be so great. I'm going to be one of those running through with a big belly. I was so excited to be fit and active. Let me tell you, I was the opposite of that. When I was training, I started having round ligament pains and pelvic pains. When I talked to my doctor, he actually told me to stop. He told me to stop which is kind of crazy to me looking back that it wasn't even just like, “Maybe do less miles or don't train for a half marathon right now, but do a 5k.” It was just like, “You should just stop. It's too much.” I don't know why I took that advice as, Okay, I should stop and I should eat Chinese food every day because orange chicken sounded amazing and I should really just not do anything besides be unhealthy.That's truly how I felt like I was in my first pregnancy. I don't think providers all over the world are telling people not to work out necessarily like mine did 12 years ago, but I think that it's a very daunting topic and we don't know what to do. I think a lot of people who may not be very physically active before pregnancy are unsure what they can do during pregnancy, if it's safe, and all of the things. We have a big list of questions today to ask you and really, number one is Is it bad to work out during pregnancy? My easy answer is no, but I think it's a real answer. Can we talk about that? Working out during pregnancy– is it bad? Is it good? Tell me all of the things. Gina: There is a lot of fear-mongering and fear involved with exercise during pregnancy. There is this really long list of things that you shouldn't do so it gets really overwhelming to know, Well, what can I do? when the majority of the things that you see are Don't do sit-ups. Don't do this. Don't do that. If you lift weights, you'll have a miscarriage. A lot of fear that comes with fitness during pregnancy is, Is it going to affect my baby's development and growth? Am I harming my baby by exercising? And then the second is, Is it going to affect my pregnancy length? Am I going to have a miscarriage or go into pre-term labor because I was exercising during my pregnancy? The answer to both of those is generally no. Just as a disclaimer, there are absolutely complications in which the benefits of exercising do not outweigh the risks of exercising. These are usually folks who have preexisting heart and lung conditions, if you have uncontrolled diabetes, if you are actively in pre-term labor, if your placenta is detaching, or have severe preeclampsia. There are circumstances in which exercising is not safe and your provider should be very clear in communicating that to you. You will probably already have preexisting exercise recommendations if it is a preexisting health condition. But for the majority of us who are of a normal-risk pregnancy, even some high-risk pregnancies, exercise is typically very safe to do. So a lot of research supports that it does not cause miscarriage and it does not affect the length of your pregnancy which is one of the major concerns with exercising. The risk of miscarriage is highest in the first trimester and it doesn't differ whether you exercise or you don't. Exercise does not cause miscarriage. It's just something else that folks like to be blamed for when they do have a pregnancy loss. It was because I went running. It was because I lifted weights. Typically, there is nothing that you could do do prevent that pregnancy loss and it just sucks to be mourning this and then to have this additional guilt put on you like it was because you were lifting weights. There are people who are sedentary and don't exercise at all and have miscarriages. Are we blaming them that it's because you didn't exercise? No, because it's one of those things that is out of our control. 09:00 How will exercise affect my baby's development? Gina:The second thing is, is it going to affect my baby's development? Like, is it going to make them too small? Is it going to make them too large? One of the things that can make your baby too small is the placenta. So if the placenta hasn't developed properly or there's an issue or complication with the placenta, it can make your baby too small. Well, exercise helps to improve the function of your placenta, especially if you exercise in the first half of your pregnancy, which is really cool. Your placenta will be more voluminous. It'll be larger and it'll have improved functional capacity. It's going to be able to transfer oxygen and nutrients to your baby much more effectively. It's going to help provide immune function to your baby. It's going to provide hormone function to your baby. It's also going to help remove metabolic waste more effectively. It's going to be a much more efficient organ, which is going to help to support your baby's growth. The second half is like, is it going to make my baby too big? I think most folks are not concerned about exercising and making their baby too big, but exercising could decrease the risk of developing gestational diabetes. Obviously, you can still exercise and eat super healthy and still develop gestational diabetes. It's not a foolproof method to avoid it. But exercising can help reduce your risk of developing gestational diabetes by 39% which is pretty substantial. And if you do develop it, continuing to exercise and eat well can also help to reduce the risk of you needing to get insulin or medication to manage your gestational diabetes. Those are the things that are contributing towards developing a baby that's too large. So having gestational diabetes that's controlled with insulin, uncontrolled gestational diabetes, and those two things can be mitigated with exercise. Exercise can actually help your baby grow more optimally, to have really good body composition, and be a really good size.In addition, which is really cool– and this is stuff that I was researching when I was writing my new book, Training for Two, which comes out in September. I'm really excited about it. I guess it's like the twins in my current pregnancy. Meagan: It's awesome. Gina: But one of the things that I was researching because our editor was like, “We really need to highlight why exercise is so beneficial for baby because this is something that's going to help motivate people to move their body.” Something for me that has been helping to motivate me during my current pregnancy to move when I'm kind of like, But I don't really feel up to it is one, it helps to improve your baby's nervous system development, which is really cool. It helps to increase their blood volume as well. They have more blood reserve to respond to the stresses of labor and to postpartum after they are infants. When they're in the world, it improves their brain development. They have more cognitive function. And these are all things that are probably in response to the stimulus of exercise. So we're introducing more stimulus to them during exercise because of this controlled stress that we're introducing which is helping to build all these new neural pathways and helping them just start doing things a little bit earlier. What that translates to in the first year of life, they have more motor skill development, so their fine and gross motor skills. They're crawling earlier, they're walking earlier, they're rolling and doing things earlier. They have more cognitive function. That's responding with higher levels of IQ and improved language skills. Meagan: Wow. Gina: So there's a lot of benefit to just being active. It doesn't have to be go and lift super heavy weights. It can just be going for walks every day, doing yoga every day, and doing intentional movement throughout the day is exercise. It doesn't have to be like how I exercise. Then what happens is that even though there are all of these benefits to exercising and fairly little risk unless you have like a complication which your provider will ideally walk you through. Even though there are all these benefits, there's still a lot of fear involved with working out during pregnancy. A lot of it's just outdated guidance and folks. I think it probably relates to the fear of women lifting weights and exercising, too. Maybe it's a little bit of that as well. And then make it somebody who's pregnant and it's just like a double whammy. So we have this mentality of like, Well, it's better to be safe than sorry. And it's like, Well, actually, you can be sorry. You can actually be sorry if you don't move your body intentionally during your pregnancy because one, not that your baby would be less developed, but we're going to say no thanks to those additional development things that they're having with the nervous system and their brain development. Those are two really big deals, I think. We're going to say no to a larger, more functional placenta which really helps to decrease the risk of developing certain complications during pregnancy. We're going to say like, I'm good with increasing my risk of developing like a prenatal complication, which again, exercising does not equal no complications, but it does reduce the risk to include preeclampsia, gestational hypertension, and gestational diabetes. 13:40 Better pregnancies, better birth outcomesGina: And if we have a healthier pregnancy, it's going to serve us better during labor as well or in the preparation for labor. We develop complications. It increases the necessity of a medical induction. It increases the number of interventions that were being used during our birth. And yes, I am so thankful for medical intervention, for C-sections, and for these things that save lives. But if we can use less of them because we're healthier going into our birth, that's going to help improve birth outcomes as well. This is a VBAC podcast. So if you're wanting to have a vaginal birth after a C-section, being healthier during your pregnancy by moving your body intentionally is a really good way to help reduce the risk of needing these additional interventions. I'm thankful for them. But if you don't need them, let's go around that. Let's do that path. Meagan: Let's avoid them if we can. Absolutely. And let me tell you, talking about my first pregnancy where I just kind of quit, I mean, I didn't even really walk. I mean, not even like a 30-minute stroll at night. I just stopped and I really didn't pay attention to my protein intake or what I was really eating. I mean, I was literally told this at the end that I was unrecognizable. Everything about my body was trying to just make a baby and it was showing in a negative way because I was struggling. I got super swollen. I gained a lot more weight. I really was not in shape. When labor came, it was harder. It was a lot harder. And then postpartum was really hard. And then having to catch up to all the things that I did to my body, but then not even to think about all the things that you just said about the baby. I mean, I was one of those people that signed up to the “no thanks”. I mean, essentially, right? It wasn't in my head that I was saying that. And then after my, that pregnancy, I was like, I will not do that again. I did. I started changing my ways and doing intentional movement. I became a Barre coach and really wanted to be active. It was a night and day difference, night and day difference. I don't think my baby's less smart or whatever, but I will say that like what you said, I can look back and be like, Oh, oh, I can recognize those things. So that's kind of interesting. Gina: So it's not like if you don't exercise, you're screwing up your baby's life or anything. I don't know how to feel the differences between the two, but if you can do things to help improve your baby's growth and development, I think we would want to do that. Even if it's just going for a walk, just move your body. 16:23 What do I do if I wasn't active before pregnancy?Gina: I think one of the things is the next question that's on the list is like, Well, what do I do if I wasn't active before pregnancy?Meagan: Yes. Gina: Because I do have folks that'll either come to my gym– we're located in Aberdeen, North Carolina. We have an in-person training facility. And so we'll have folks that show up and be like, “I have never exercised before in my life, but I heard it's really good for me and I'm pregnant. Help me.” You can absolutely start an exercise program during pregnancy. This is hard to know because you get told, “Whatever you're doing before pregnancy, you could just continue during your pregnancy, just do a little bit less.” What if I was not doing anything? How do I do less than that? Like what does that even look like? Meagan: Right. Gina: You can absolutely start an exercise program during pregnancy. Yes, it will look different than pre-pregnancy workouts. If you were an active person before pregnancy, there will be some sort of modification that needs to happen because workouts can't look exactly the same when we're pregnant. But if you're like, Okay, how do I even begin? Just pick 20 minutes where you go for a walk. Pick 20 minutes where you choose a Peloton on-demand video. They have prenatal ones on there too where you just follow that. We have prenatal on-demand workout videos as well. We also have a prenatal app-based program, so we have some different options as well. Just choose a 20-minute option and just move. Just move your body. Use lighter weights. We're not trying to get super sore. You probably will be sore the first week or so. It's just part of getting used to the program.Meagan: It's not normal, yeah. Gina: It's normal, but don't be working out so hard that you're incapacitated the rest of your day, start for 20 minutes and do that three times a week, and then the next week do it four times and then increase it to 30 minutes. Then maybe it's 40 minutes and then you're walking more. We're just going to start really slow and manageable, and then we're going to just slowly increase during pregnancy. The main goal during pregnancy is 150 minutes of moderate-intensity activity per week. That's the minimum goal. So if you exceed that, that's totally fine. Research supports that even higher-intensity activity is perfectly safe during pregnancy. A higher volume of exercise is perfectly safe. But the bare minimum that we're trying to aim for is 150 minutes. That's five days a week for 30 minutes or whatever the math is for the other one. But you can also do more than that. I would start with 20 minutes of something that feels manageable for you and do that and if it's, “Hey, I need to follow a program,” we've got programs for you. We've developed them for pregnancy specifically. There's Peloton on-demand. There are so many workout programs out there for pregnancy too. They're going to have safe modifications for you. You can hire a personal trainer. You can join an in-person gym. We're just looking for you to move your body in a way that feels manageable for you and it's okay if it's not perfect pregnancy workouts either. Now if you're an active person or you're like, Okay, I have done my month of exercising. I'm feeling more confident, this is where we can start to really ensure that our workouts are not only keeping us active and moving us during our pregnancy but also helping us actually prepare for birth. 19:30 Movements to incorporateGina: Common workout programs are really focused on front-to-back type movement patterns. This is the sagittal plane. This is like squats, deadlifts, cleans, clean-and-jerks, box jumps. Everything is very front-to-back because this is the way that we move our bodies. When we walk we typically walk in a front-to-back movement pattern. However, we also need to be moving laterally and rotationally as well which is another myth. Can I twist during pregnancy? Yes, you can twist. It's necessary to twist. If you don't twist, your back will hurt. I promise you it's okay to twist. Now we don't want to do such deep twists that we're compressing our belly because it would be really uncomfortable. Not because it would be harmful for you, but we want to we want to be comfortable during our pregnancy. We want to also be incorporating movement patterns that are in other planes of motion ot just front-to-back. We also want lateral movements like lateral band walks, side lunges, and movements where we're just we're going in this direction. And then we also want rotational movements. So like when I'm doing lunges, I'm adding an internal to an external rotation or I'm doing a rotation with a core exercise. We want to think about what type of movements are we incorporating or are included in our workout programs because that is really important to creating space in our pelvis which is not the point of this episode, but fitness can really relate to labor in that aspect as well. It's keeping you strong during your pregnancy. It's helping to support your baby's development. It's helping to decrease your risk of complication but we can also use it to help prepare for our birth. 20:59 Three pelvic levels Gina: And so there are three pelvic levels and I'll go over this super quick. The top opens in one way, then we have the middle, and then we have the bottom. We have inlet, mid-pelvis, outlet, and they all open with different types of movement patterns which is where moving in different planes of motion is going to be really helpful. The top of the pelvis opens with wider knee movement patterns like an external hip rotation with an anterior tilt with abduction. Legs are moving out. Think knees out, ankles in so really deep squats for example. An anterior tilt or arching your back is going to be really helpful because this makes it easier for you to find external rotation. It also changes the pubic bone angle and makes it easier for baby to enter into the pelvis. The good news is we already do that during pregnancy. That's a common postural tendency that we have. We like to live in that position. It's comfortable for us. We have more weight on the front. We're just extending in our spine and just loving that spot. However, we also need to be able to find other types of movements such as a posterior pelvic tilt or rounding in the back. This one is really important to opening the top of the pelvis in addition to an anterior tilt. So with a posterior pelvic tilt, we have this big chunk of bone on the back of our pelvis called the sacral promontory that moves backward when we tuck our butt underneath or we round in our back. That anterior pelvic tilt creates a little bit more space in the front half of the inlet and then that posterior pelvic tilt creates more space in the back. We want to be able to shift between the two but because we always favor this extended position, it can be really hard to find that rounded position. If you had a prior labor where baby just never entered and they were like, “Your pelvis is just too small. Baby just can't fit in your pelvis,” it probably was more related to whether or not you can find– and I don't want to blame anybody for what happened with labors but just helpful tips. If you're having a hard time finding a round in your back or tucking your butt underneath, it's going to be harder to create that front-to-back space in the pelvic inlet and it can make it harder for baby to enter. So during our prenatal workouts, we want to think about, Okay, what can we do to help me find more of a rounded position? We can release tension in our lats or musculature. We can release tension in our hip flexors. We can incorporate pelvic tilts into our movement patterns. Those are some things that we can do to help us find this more rounded position. 23:19 The mid-pelvis and outletGina: The next pelvic level the mid pelvis is asymmetrical movements like side-to-side, hip shifting, and so we have a little bit of external rotation and a little bit of internal rotation. We're just going back and forth between the two. Then the bottom of the pelvis with the pelvic outlet is essentially like the opposite of the inlet where we have an internal rotation at the hip where knees in, ankles out is creating more space side-to-side. A slight posterior pelvic tilt can help to make internal rotation easier, but we're not necessarily rounding in our back as we're pushing because it's not really that comfortable. Anterior pelvic tilt or a little bit more lat tension can kind of pull that sacrum back so we're kind of back to that pelvic tilting a little bit in the outlet, but we're really focusing on that internal rotation to create space. But if we recall, our favorite positions during pregnancy are extension and external rotation. That rounded position is harder and internal rotation is harder. In addition, that prenatal posture tends to make the back half of the pelvic floor really tight so we need to one, be able to release tension in the posterior pelvic floor and help us find more internal rotation. We can do that with our prenatal workouts as well. This is where hip-shifted exercises can be really beneficial like finding internal-external rotation with our single leg movements. These are all things that we incorporate within our prenatal programming because we have been observing birth and people working out for a really long time and we want to help you move through your pregnancy and through your birth. We also have a free birth prep circuit that I'll give you the link for that you can put in the notes as well. It has six movements that help you release those common areas of tension. We also have our prenatal fitness program if anybody's interested in working out. We have lots of different options for that as well. But when we're looking at our prenatal workouts, we need to look beyond just one– we just want to be active and intentionally active and then two– we want to think, Okay. Well, how does my workout help to support my birth preparation? How is it helping to create more space in my pelvis? How is it helping me release tension in my pelvic floor? Those are things that are going to help us to support us during birth. Yeah, that was a really long answer to you. Meagan: No, it was an amazing answer. It's interesting because I never really thought when you were like, “Front-to-back”, we focus so much on front-to-back. There's that lateral movement that a lot of the time we skip and I didn't even think of that. I know in your book, we've got a couple of little teasers online within your book. You've been showing different ways to work those sides and move your body in different ways. That is amazing. 25:56 Being told that your pelvis is too smallI love that you talked about the pelvis, the inlet, the middle, and the outlet because I'm pretty sure you probably have known this within the VBAC community. How many times are we told that our pelvis is too small? I mean, all of the time. Gina: It makes me so mad. Once you get told something really random or a fun fact about your pelvis like, “You have a really prominent sacrum or pubic bone.” What does that mean? Meagan: Yes. What does that mean? Gina: How can I take that information and do something with it? Instead of acknowledging that yes, each of us has different types of pelvises. Similarly, we're all from different ethnic backgrounds. Of course, we would have slightly different pelvises. We have different femur lengths. Meagan: Right. Gina: However, we can all still figure out how to squat and figure out how to do movement patterns that make us functional humans even with differing bone structures. It just blows my mind that we don't acknowledge the fact that the pelvis can change shape and diameter and displacement with movement. Our baby is also shape-shifting and wiggling their way through the pelvis as well. But the only person to blame is you. It's because your pelvis is just too small. Meagan: Right. I know. Gina: Maybe you didn't know how to support me. Meagan: I know I have those same feelings. It's very frustrating. I think it's probably a little extra salt on the wound because I was told that. I was told that I would never get a baby out of my pelvis. Like you were saying, you're like, “Well, maybe I just wasn't supported well enough. Maybe I wasn't given the tools or the positions,” like what you're describing. I mean, with my first labor, I just sat there in the bed, clinging to the side, and then got an epidural and sat there. Really? Like, so I wasn't moving my pelvis. I wasn't doing those asymmetrical movements. I really wasn't working with my body to get my baby out. Okay. So a question that I know that we have received is the anterior placenta. So does fitness change if or what we're doing change if we have an anterior placenta? Gina: Really, if you have an anterior placenta, a posterior placenta, it closes out on the side, it doesn't really matter where it is unless it is covering the cervix. At that point, like, there will probably be some sort of modification, because we don't want to have any sort of cervical dilation or cramping or urinary irritability that can cause the cervix to begin to dilate which may cause the placenta to start to detach which would not be ideal. So typically, if you have any sort of placenta previa, potentially like a low-lying placenta in the third trimester, after 28 weeks, we probably want to modify it to where we're not doing super deep squats. We're not exercising at a high intensity. It's low to moderate. If you are experiencing any bleeding or cramping during your workouts, you're stopping immediately. But in regards to the placenta being in the front or the back, there really is no difference when it comes to exercise. The baby is pretty snug as a bug in a rug. Meagan: Snug as a bug in a rug. They are pretty protected in there. They are pretty deep in there. Gina: They are. They are. Now when it comes to certain birth options, sometimes an anterior placenta– usually with an ECV if baby's are breech, providers don't want to do it if you have an anterior placenta. It may be harder for you to feel your babies. You should feel your baby but it may be muted. You would be like, I kind of feel you, when in comparison, if you had a posterior placenta, there's a little alien rolling around in your belly.Meagan: Right. Or you might not feel kicks until them later on in your pregnancy when someone with a posterior placenta is feeling those little butterfly kicks early one. Gina: Yeah. It will be more muted. But in regards to exercise, the only placenta position that would result in modifications is a low-lying or placenta previa where the placenta is covering the cervix. But usually for those, if you found out at your 18-week anatomy scan, they usually resolve within a few weeks so you can always ask for a repeat scan, but typically, we don't need to modify until the 28-week mark. But again, if your provider has given you specific guidance on what they consider to be safe for you with exercise because again, they are looking at your medical records. They are looking at you as an individual and this is just a podcast. Definitely go with their guidance, but typically, they do move. There usually is not an issue into the third trimester with that either. Meagan: Yeah. Okay, so good. 30:36 How late in pregnancy is okay to work out?Meagan: Another question is, How “late in pregnancy” is okay for me to work out? We're talking about early, what we're doing. We may be started to feel really good. We may be increasing our physical activity. We might be more mindful. Now, it's on top of intentional movement. It's on birth prep and really getting ready for this birth journey. Is there a time when we should cut off physical activity or is it okay to be doing squats and lateral movements and yoga one day and go into labor the next day?Gina: You can workout until the day that you give birth. Now, how intense your workouts are will probably decrease toward the end of the third trimester. For us, around the 36-37-week mark, we do certain tapering in the program which means we start decreasing overall volume and intensity of workouts because one, we are just more tired at the end of the pregnancy. We still want to move and be active, but we also need to be in the mind that, Tonight, I might go into labor so I don't want to be super sore from my workout. Similar to if I was training for an athletic event, not that birth is a competition or anything, I wouldn't want to be doing my hardest workout the morning of the competition. Again, birth is not a competition but with that type of fitness mentality, you're like, Okay, well birth is probably going to be physically demanding even if it's super fast. It's still physically demanding. I probably don't want to be super sore or super fatigued going into that. So around the 36-37-week mark, you can decrease overall volume. If you were working out at 200 minutes a week, maybe at week 37, we are only doing 150 minutes a week, and at week 38, we are doing 100 minutes a week and then maintaining that so whenever your baby decides to come. 32:31 When is it too late to start exercising during pregnancy?Gina: We also get folks who ask, When is it too late to start? I would say if you gave birth, it's too late. It's probably too late for prenatal fitness at this point. Kind of like, When is it too late to get an epidural? It's when your baby is born. When your baby is born, it's too late to start a prenatal fitness program. We will have folks who are 35 weeks. They are like, I'll just wait for postpartum. I'm like, You might have 2 months left. That's a long time. 8 weeks, that's a whole fitness challenge or whatever. You know those ones where it's like, “6 Weeks to a Bigger Booty”, it might be 6 weeks until a baby. That's still a good period of time to move your body. It doesn't have to be training for a PR, it's just learning how to release tension, starting to build up some stamina, some endurance for the big day. Now, if you're 38 weeks and you're in that, I could go into labor anytime, I probably wouldn't start a lifting program at that point. I would probably be focusing more on yoga and mobility-type things. Walking, just trying to release tension in my body. I wouldn't be like, Let me go squat and deadlift for the first time in my whole pregnancy. I would do more breathing and stretching. That would be more reasonable to me. Once you hit the 36-37 mark and you're like, Can I start something now? Absolutely. A prenatal yoga program would be my recommendation. Going for walks and things like that. If you're 32, 33 or even to 35 weeks, I would say that you can start a lifting program. I would say to start our prenatal program at that point because we do have a monthly option. You can just grab the months that you need. We also have a just third-trimester program on demand. You can still intentionally move, but it's just going to be a little bit more mindful to the fact that we are kind of at the end of this journey, but it's definitely not too late to start unless you gave birth. At that point, it's probably a little too late. But what can you do? Meagan: Now you're going into postpartum after your baby is born. Gina: Yeah, then we can focus on postpartum stuff. 34:43 Postpartum fitnessMeagan: Which is also a thing. There are postpartum programs. There's a lot after birth that we can do. I know this wasn't in the questions that we were talking about but it led into this where a lot of people don't know when they can start working out after birth. For my second C-section, at that point, I was a Barre instructor and at 4 weeks, I went back before I was technically cleared. I was just following my body doing the very minimal. When is it appropriate to start a postpartum training program? Gina: It depends on the program. We have a free early postpartum recovery course that is intended to start within a few days after birth which is just breathing mobility and some stretches. It's really, really gentle stuff just to reconnect with our body but it's not like, go lift weights or anything. Usually, I would recommend doing a gentle program like that for 4-6 weeks. I'll give you the link to that as well as another. It's just a program that we offer. After the 10-week mark is when most folks can start to return to fitness. This will vary from person to person, whether you had a vaginal birth, whether you had a C-section, whether you had a hemorrhage, how much support do you have postpartum, and how your healing has been so far. It can really vary from person to person. I can't even say 4 weeks for unmedicated vaginal birth, 10 weeks if you had a labored C-section because even within that is a whole realm of where you might be. Meagan: It is. Gina: So just giving yourself some grace and knowing that there is plenty of time to return to fitness. Obviously, we don't want to wait 5 years, but it's okay. Meagan: You don't have to jump into it. Gina: Yeah, it's okay if it's 12 weeks before you start a program. It will be fine. Again, we don't want to wait for 5 years. That's a long time to live with whatever we are having postpartum. Usually 4-10 weeks is when I say if you feel ready and you want to start moving your body, that's usually a good time to start. We're looking for bleeding to pretty much be stopped. We're not having any issues still lingering from birth so we are not having any infections from birth. We are not having post-birth surgeries or anything like that. That may delay things a little bit longer. If you've had a hemorrhage, that will delay you a little bit just because your blook is trying to replenish itself from all of that. Sometimes a C-section blood loss or hemorrhage can be a little bit higher, but you can also have severe hemorrhage from a vaginal birth as well. Just honor how you are feeling. Then when you do return to fitness, it is a gradual slow process of reconnecting with this new body. I know there sometimes is this mentality of, I want to bounce back. I want to get back to who I was, especially if postpartum is hard, which it is, or if birth wasn't what you expected, which it can be for a lot of folks. There can be this, Let me get back to something that reminds me of myself and who I was before so I'll do my workouts and get back to my workouts. Meagan: That was me. Gina: I love working out. That's a part of my identity. I can sympathize with that desire, but if we rush that process, it's going to delay you in the long run. You'll be 4-6 months postpartum. You'll be like, Why am I still leaking? Why do I still have a diastasis? I just feel unstable. But when we take the time in the beginning to really reconnect, really focus on the foundational core work, and really rebuild slowly which is painful to do sometimes. Not painful physically, but painful mentally, it really helps so, so much in the long run. So take your time. Again, we have a program to support you if you want it but there are so many programs out there too that suit everyone's individual needs depending on the sport that you are trying to get back to as well. Meagan: Right, I love how you talked about mentally it can be so hard. It was for me. It just was so hard. I just needed to get out and move my body. I did follow my body, but so what you were saying, mentally it is hard and can hurt us but physically it was too much for me. I did have to take a step back. I went to this hour class. I cut it back, but it set me back 3 more weeks because I was like, Okay, I probably shouldn't have done that. Noted. Thanks body. Gina: It happens. It happens to the best of us. Meagan: Thanks body for letting us know. I was able to return. I love how you talked about reconnecting with our pelvic floor and all of the things. Breathing in itself is so powerful, so I love that you are focusing on that. We'll make sure to put in the show notes the link for your program. 39:20 Weightlifting and pregnancyMeagan: Okay, so last two questions. Weightlifting is a big one. I love weightlifting myself and I follow quite a few accounts who have gone through pregnancy like yourself and weight lifted. I am flabbergasted to see some of the negative comments on pregnant people lifting because it bugs me. It bugs me that people are so negative about it and judging them like, What are you doing? You kind of touched on that earlier. I don't know why lifting sometimes with women in general, but then add pregnancy to that is really hard. You kind of mentioned that maybe at the end you're not going to join a weightlifting program, but how can someone start with a very gentle approach to weightlifting? I do feel like especially if weightlifting is not something you are used to, it can be very, very intimidating. I know in your book, you have a section where you're like, Instead of doing this, try this. Instead of doing deadlifts, try these, which is awesome because it can give us an idea. But can you guide someone who is like, I really want to weightlift but I'm so intimidated to start? What is a gentle way to start approaching that? Gina: If you live by us, you can just come to our gym and we will walk you through it which is usually the easiest way to learn how. If there is a lifting class somewhere or an intro to lifting or even a women's fitness-type class, that could be a good way to get introduced to, How do I lift safely? Some CrossFit gyms will have Intro to CrossFit which can or cannot be great for starting during pregnancy, but they can at least teach you how to squat, how to deadlift, how to bench press, and there are barbell gyms out there that might have lifting classes. Even just box gyms like Planet Fitness or Gold's Gym might have lifting classes. Hire a personal trainer to walk you through what to do. That can take some of the intimidation out because you don't have to walk into this gym into this section that is male-dominated and be like, “Hello. I am pregnant. I am trying to squat. Can you hand me a dumbbell?” So it can be really scary to do that. You can also purchase some weights for your home. Dicks Sporting Goods has really good deals on gym equipment that is very inexpensive. It is cheaper quality so they won't last you a long time, but if you're like,  I just need to get started, that can be a great place to go. Amazon has really good sales pretty frequently to get cheap equipment that is still a moderate quality. Rep Fitness is one of our favorites for higher quality equipment that is still affordable then Rogue would be the super expensive brand. I would say them and Rep Fitness are the same quality. It depends on how much you want to invest. You can get the stuff and have it at your home as well. Usually, I would say to grab some dumbbells. If you want to explore barbell, buy a barbell and some bumper plates. They have sets that you can get for that. You can buy yourself a squat rack. That's if you want to do barbell stuff. You can also do a ton of stuff with just kettlebells and dumbbells. I really like resistance bands. Those are huge in our programming. They are really un-intimidating. They are very easy to use. They are an attachment point for resistance bands. A box to step up on. You can also use a stool. It's easy to get started, but you just have to figure out what type of environment you want to get started in. Do you want to start with a coach-type environment to guide you through it or do you want to try to figure it out on your own? With our programming, we walk you through how to do each movement especially with the on-demand one so you can see, Okay, this is how I'm supposed to do it, and then there will be some experimenting to figure out what feels good for you in your body to be like, Okay, when I squat, I have to spread my feet out a little bit more and that feels better for me, kind of thing. That can be a good way to get into it. Know that it is safe to do. I think that is probably the first fear that it is safe to do. I think that's what you were saying. Folks love to comment some hateful things on people who are lifting weights during pregnancy. The comment the same shit on a female just lifting weights who is not pregnant. I don't know if it's dudes out there who are feeling very inadequate with themselves that they are like, I cannot stand that there is a strong woman out there so I'm just going to comment and critique her, then like I said before, you add on the additional layer that now she is pregnant and we have this overall belief that exercise is dangerous, people say some horrible things. I'm like, You do know you don't have to comment on things, right? Meagan: I know. You can actually just swipe on. Gina: Those can be inside thoughts. Meagan: Yes. If you don't have a nice comment to say, leave me alone. Gina: Yes, because you know what happens? You comment and then you get more pregnancy content on your feed then you're like, Why is this pregnancy post popping up on my feed? It's probably because you commented on this pregnant woman who was lifting weights and you said some nasty shit. That's probably why it's popping up on your feed, bro. Meagan: I love it. Oh my gosh. I know, but it actually makes me very angry and it's not even just men. It's women too. Why do we have to berate people for being active and choosing to lift weights during pregnancy or run marathons during pregnancy or do whatever they want? It is their body. Let them do it and honestly, we need people to share like what you guys do. We need these videos because it does offer us inspiration and also offers us a sense of, Oh, what they're saying over here isn't true. I want to learn more about this. It's so frustrating, but it's possible. So if you want to lift weights, Women of Strength, and you're listening, go for it. Go for it. Check out their program. Get the book which we're going to talk about right now I'm hoping and learn more. Learn more about fitness in pregnancy and the benefits for both mom and baby which we were just talking about in the beginning of this. 45:51 Training for TwoMeagan: Let's talk more about your book. You said earlier this is like the twin to your current pregnancy. I'm sure this is like another baby. I'm so excited for you. I'm so proud of you. I hope everybody in the world gets it. So tell us more about it and all of the things. You've got three parts, right? Gina: So right now, this is just one part to the book. Hopefully it turns into a three-part series so I need your pre-orders so that we can make a second part and a third part. Meagan: Pre-order everyone. Gina: That's how we get the next two parts. The first part which will hopefully be a three-part series is all about how you can use prenatal fitness to support a strong pregnancy, a pain-free pregnancy and then also use that to prepare for birth because prenatal fitness is not just a list of pregnancy-safe “exercises”. It's not just take out all of the sit-ups and crunches and all of the jumping and now it's a pregnancy program which is what the majority of pregnancy programs are. It's just a bunch of random exercises that just don't involve crunches and sit-ups. Cool. That's a great first step. But we can take it way further by ensuring that our workouts are also helping us to prepare for birth. We're taking the pelvic floor into account. How are we integrating that in the overall system? How are we learning to release tension? How are we increasing mobility within our hips so we can find that internally and externally pelvic mobility. What movements are we incorporating to help increase the pelvic space so we can create more space for baby to navigate through? What kind of movements are we incorporating into our workout that helps us for our baby's position? We're not trying to force baby into any position, but we want to make it easy for them to find whatever their best position is. We can do that with our prenatal workouts. The book is going to break that down for you. It's definitely a little bit heavier on the lifting side so it includes modifications for how to deadlift during pregnancy and how to bench press during pregnancy. All of these main lifts, we incorporate tons of accessory exercises such as core exercises that you can do during pregnancy, what signs and symptoms to be mindful of when doing core exercises, how to protect your core and pelvic floor during pregnancy. We incorporate exercises to help with pelvic stability because pelvic pain is super common but you don't have to be in pain during pregnancy. Similar to you, my provider when I told him I had pelvic pain, they were like, “That sucks. When you give birth, it will go away.” I'm like, Well, that's not true. There is a lot you can do during pregnancy to help resolve that as well. The book is a collection of all of the things I have learned through working with in-person prenatal clients and supporting in-person births. Hundreds of clients have helped me gain this information to write this book. My educational background and things that I've researched and studied have all been consolidated within this book specifically to prenatal fitness and using your prenatal fitness to stay strong and then also to help you prepare for birth. There is a little bit in there on labor. A bunch of that stuff got taken out because I write a lot. I have too much knowledge in this head of mine so that's why I need a three-part series then there is one chapter on early postpartum recovery as well. We also include how to recover from a C-section in there. It's just the first month postpartum so it's just a taste of what book three will be. So help me get part two and three by pre-ordering the book. It's on Amazon. I'll give you the link as well. It's $24-25. The book comes out September 14th so hopefully after my baby has been born. I will be very sad if I'm 43 weeks pregnant so I will be in the infancy of my postpartum with a newborn when this next baby, baby B has been born and would love your support with preordering it. We're trying to figure out pre-order incentives right now. We may have a chapter that got cut, so if you pre-order, you get that chapter as a PDF which is all of the labor stuff- how to address labor stalls, laboring positions, what a contraction is. Meagan: So good. Gina: It was such a good chapter, but that will be in part two which is going to be birth. Part three is postpartum fitness so help me get the other parts by ordering the book. Meagan: Yes. Gina: It's on right now. I am really excited about it. So yeah. Meagan: I am so excited for you. Yeah. it's $24.99. That is amazing. We will make sure like she said to have the links to all of these things including this book pre-order link in the show notes. Right now, as soon as you are done listening and you're like, Dang, that was an awesome episode, go down. Click the link and support her by buying her book. It is called Training for Two. She's absolutely beautiful on that front cover holding her sweet baby bump. You guys, I'm so excited for this book. I'm so excited for you and I'm so grateful that you were with us today sharing all of this information. Gina: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Our Sponsors:* Check out Dr. Mom Butt Balm: drmombuttbalm.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

  Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That's exactly why Gina D'Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here. What you'll learn in this episode: What questions to ask appraisers and auction houses before selling your jewelry. What education and networking opportunities an aspiring appraiser should seek out. Why an appraisal includes multiple values, and why those values will change depending on the reason for the appraisal. What the process of selling jewelry with an auction house is like, and why you might choose an auction house over selling online or to a store. What a qualified appraiser will look for while inspecting a piece of jewelry.   About Gina D'Onofrio With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management. Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area. Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers. In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services. She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA.   Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com Additional Resources: Website Instagram Facebook Email   Transcript: Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That's exactly why Gina D'Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.   Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.    Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again. Welcome back.   If you become a certain kind of appraiser, let's say real estate or antique jewelry or I'll call it regular jewelry, how do you continue your education in those areas? What do you do if you're a real estate appraiser and you want to be an expert, or an antique expert? What would you do to continue education in that area?   Gina: You mentioned real estate. So, you mean you're appraising houses and all of a sudden you want to appraise antique jewelry?   Sharon: No, if you're in a particular area, is what I mean. You work in jewelry. What do you do to further your education besides going to the conferences, handling the jewelry? Are there other things you can do to further your education in those areas? In that area, I should say.   Gina: If you're working in jewelry, you're basically filling all the educational holes that you might have. When you say you work in jewelry, if you work for a contemporary jeweler, then you need to have more exposure to vintage jewelry. If it's vice versa, maybe you're working with antique and estate jewelry and you're not as exposed to what present day Tiffany and Company and Cartier and Van Cleef & Arpels are doing, then you have to self-educate and gain more exposure to that kind of jewelry. As a jewelry appraiser, anything can cross your desk. Quite often, I might receive a collection that belongs to somebody, and she may have something that she bought last week and she may have something that her great-grandmother owned and she has inherited. You need to be able to recognize and evaluate and appraise both pieces. So, you do need a very well-rounded education.   Sharon: You raised the point of Cartier and David Webb and the high-end pieces that designers make, but not everything you see is going to be that. As you said, there's the piece that the grandmother passes down. Heritage, I presume, isn't all Cartier. What do you do then? What do you do if a piece comes across your desk and it's not a Cartier or it's not a David Webb? Do you look at a David Webb as the benchmark and then go from there?   Gina: No, you don't, because a piece that has no stamp or signature doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a fine piece. That's where having an understanding of jewelry manufacturing is critical. You do need to gain an education on how a piece of jewelry is made. GIA is teaching a class called jewelry forensics. In that class, they teach appraisers and other members of the industry how to look at a piece and recognize how it was fabricated. Was it made entirely by hand? Was it made by carving a wax and casting it? Was it made via CAD/CAM design and 3D printing? Was made by using a die struck method? These are all different methods of producing a piece of jewelry, and as an appraiser you need to have an education in that so when you're holding that piece of jewelry in your hand, A) you recognize how it was made, and B) you recognize the quality of the workmanship. That plays into the value of the piece.    For example, you might have a piece of jewelry, and you recognize that it was made entirely by hand. A great deal of time and effort has gone into making it, and the workmanship is excellent. Flawless, in fact. That is going to inform you as to what it would cost to replace that piece if your client wants to insure it for another piece that has been made entirely by hand.    Or, you might look at a piece that is mass produced using CAD/CAM and 3D printing, but it's a piece that's not finished very well. It's poorly made, and the setting work is very poor, too. In fact, some of the stones are a little bit loose because they weren't set properly, or perhaps they're not straight in the piece. That's going to tell you that it's a mass-produced piece. If it's not signed, you're going to be looking at other mass-produced pieces of the same type of lower quality in order to determine what it would cost to replace that piece. Understanding production is really important.   Sharon: Can you be an appraiser without having this background of manufacturing and that sort of thing? Could you be an appraiser?   Gina: You can. I'm really sad to say that there is no licensing of jewelry appraisers. There is no regulation, no government regulation. We self-regulate. That's why if you want to become a professional appraiser and you want to be the best appraiser you can be, you should join an organization that gives you excellent education and network with other very experienced appraisers who can help guide you in the right direction to get the education that you need.    Unfortunately, anybody can appraise jewelry and nobody can stop you. As a consumer, it's best to look for an appraiser that has reached the highest level they can possibly attain within an appraisal organization that requires their members to requalify every five years. The International Society of Appraisers has a requalification program. So does the American Society of Appraisers. They do require their members to requalify every five years. Then you have the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers that have different strata of membership, different tiers of membership, so look for an appraiser within that organization that has successfully completed the Certified Master Appraiser program, the CMA, and at the very least is a certified appraiser. Someone who has sat for the exams.   Sharon: What is requalification? Is that a test on paper or a computer, or is it just that you came to class?   Gina: It varies. It depends on which organization. I failed to mention the American Gem Society, I apologize. They also have an Independent Gemologist Appraiser program. For requalification, you have to attend a minimum amount of education every year. You have to prove you have done that. There is also an exam you have to take as well.   Sharon: You answered one of the questions I had, which is what you would ask somebody you want to be an appraiser for you. What would you ask them to know if they're good or not? What should I ask? What would somebody in the public ask if they're looking for an appraiser?   Gina: Yes. Everything that I just told you. Make sure that they have reached the highest designation they can within those appraisal organizations.   Sharon: I took some antique jewelry to an appraiser not knowing that they did all kinds of jewelry, but they weren't an expert in antiques. Was there any way to suss that out in advance?   Gina: That's a great question, Sharon. That's tricky. As I mentioned earlier, I feel that it's difficult to get a formal education in jewelry history today, so you are getting it piecemeal from wherever you can, which is why I developed my courses. There is no way to look at an appraiser and have them prove to you that they are a specialist in antique and period jewelry. Unfortunately, that's something that comes by way of reputation. You may have to ask, "How did you become proficient?" You may have to just ask them to explain that to you. It's a tricky one. As a consumer, I'm not quite sure how that could be proven.   Sharon: What would you suggest the public ask if you want to know if an appraiser is credentialed, a credible appraiser?   Gina: You ask them what level of certification, what designation, they have achieved within their appraisal organization. Are they a member of the ASA, the NAJA, the ISA, the AGS? If they are a member—you could be a member and not attain any education. You could be a candidate member, or you could just simply be a member. Ask them, "What education have you completed with these organizations? Are you designated? What is your designation? What is your experience with antique and period jewelry? Are you proficient with that type of jewelry?" Just outright ask them to show you what their education and designation is.    Most appraisers who have achieved this level of education and designation have spent a great deal of time attaining it and are proud of what they've achieved, and they usually put up on their website for everybody to see. But if they haven't done that, you can ask them for their professional profiles so you can read through what they've achieved, and you can even check it. You can call those appraisal organizations to see if the information you've been provided is true and accurate.   Sharon: I'm thinking about something you said earlier. If somebody says to me, "I don't have a formal education in this, but I've handled a million and one pieces in this era, and I can tell right away if it's fake or not and who made it," what do you say to that?   Gina: That's quite possible. Absolutely. Then that makes them a connoisseur and a specialist in antique and period jewelry. But are they an appraiser? Do they have an education in appraisal report writing? Can they write that appraisal report for you? That's the other part. That's the other side of the coin. That's the other thing they have to have to be an appraiser. Otherwise, they're an expert in that period of jewelry, but they're not necessarily an appraiser.   Sharon: That's interesting. When I thought about being an appraiser myself, it was the report writing that scared me off. That's very detailed and very scientific in a way. Very precise.   Gina: Yes, and that education is something that you can study.   Sharon: Okay. I think I'll pass.   Gina: You almost looked like you were considering it, Sharon.   Sharon: No, I think I've heard too much about the classes for the report writing and how they're pretty onerous, in a in a good way.   Gina: They're fascinating. I highly recommend it. Anyone out there who is writing appraisal reports and doesn't have a foundation in appraisal report writing from one of the major organizations, I really suggest that you go out and get that education. You'll be amazed at what you'll learn. It's going to make you even better at what you do.   Sharon: Why would you say it makes you better at what you do?   Gina: This education is written by appraisers, not just one appraiser, but collaborative groups of appraisers who have been immersed in that profession for many, many years. They have learned the best approaches and the pitfalls. They have studied the government requirements. They may have had a lot of experience in appraising for litigation, and this collective information has been formally put into a course. It's only going to help you as an appraiser. It's going to help you avoid ending up in court or possibly being disqualified as an appraiser for the IRS because you did not follow the proper procedures. If you know what pitfalls to avoid and how to arrive at a more informed opinion of value, it's only going to make your appraisal a better product for the person that's using it.   Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. I keep going back to Antiques Roadshow. They talk about the auction value and the retail value and the insurance value. It drives me crazy because you see the glassy-eyed look in somebody's eyes. I want to say, "Didn't you hear what they said?"   Gina: As an appraiser and as a specialist for an auction house, this is the biggest problem. This is the biggest obstacle for a private individual, understanding that there is not just one value. There are multiple values for the same piece of jewelry. It just depends on the market. It depends on whether it's the auction market, whether it is the liquidation market, or whether it is the retail market or whether it is the antique and estate jewelry market. Is it being sold as a brand-new piece? Is it being sold as a pre-owned piece in a retail scenario? Is it a custom-made designer piece? The same piece of jewelry could have various values depending on what you need that information for.   Sharon: I wonder, you talked about this handmade piece. Is there a replacement? Yes, there's an insurance value, but could you find a replacement somewhere in the market?   Gina: That's a great question. You know what? Appraisal organizations, we all have forums, email chat groups where we ask each other questions and use the collaborative brain trust of your peers to help you solve a problem, and a problem came up today. There was a photograph of a bracelet that was posted by a professional appraiser. This appraiser recognized the designer. The designer and the manufacturer—they are one in the same—was a French designer called Georges Lenfant. He was a manufacturer of chains, particularly beautifully constructed chains and bracelets, and he manufactured for all the major jewelry houses, Van Cleef & Arpels, Cartier, goodness me, so many of them. He was very active in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s. He had his own trademark that he would put inside a piece, but he didn't sign it. The piece was often signed with the jewelry house, Cartier, and then it had the Georges Lenfant stamp inside the piece. He was a French maker.  I tell you all of this to explain that today, when pieces of jewelry come to market made by this particular maker, there is an extra layer of interest and value because these pieces are so beautifully made. This appraiser posted a piece of jewelry by this maker. This is one of those pieces that wasn't signed by a major jewelry house, but the appraiser was very good and was able to recognize that it was the Georges Lenfant trademark and posed the question, "Can anybody tell me where I can find examples of this piece so I can arrive at an opinion of replacement value?" It was a 1970s bracelet made by this French maker. Where would you replace a 1970s piece made by this maker? It would be with somebody who typically sells vintage jewelry, high-end vintage jewelry. That should have been the answer to this question.    Unfortunately, one of the answers provided was, "Contact the manufacturer and ask them what they would charge you to make it today." It's not being made today, not that particular piece. It's a vintage piece by a collectible maker. I guess that's a very long example to your question. You need to determine, is this a piece that's typically being made today, or is this a vintage piece that has collectible value? Do you recognize who the maker is? Is there a stamp inside there? Is there some way you can look this up? If you can't look it up, who do you go to? How do you find out? You need to know to ask all these questions. All this happens by networking with your peers, by attending appraisal conferences, by self-educating, and by handling a lot of this jewelry.   Sharon: Do you have a favorite period that you like to appraise, or a favorite stone that you are more partial to?   Gina: Oh, boy. Gosh. Well, my focus is 20th century jewelry. I have no favorites. I love all periods of jewelry, but because I am very much immersed these days in jewelry from 1930 to 2000, which I feel is an area of education that is not being covered enough, I tend to focus on 20th century jewelry and preferably the latter half.   Sharon: I can understand. How do you bring the jewelry in, and what do you do with it once you have it?   Gina: A typical day as a consignment director at Heritage Auctions. Well, that varies from day to day, but if you're talking about the consignment process, I could be going to visit with a client. It could be in his or her home. I could be looking at the jewelry and studying the jewelry and learning about the history behind the piece from the owner. Based on that information and based on the collection, I could be coming up with estimate ranges of what the piece of jewelry may sell for at auction. At that point, the owner of the jewelry may consign it to the auction house, at which point I take the jewelry with me and it goes through the auction process.    It gets shipped to headquarters, where it is professionally photographed. If there are any repairs that need to be done, it's done at that point. If lab reports need to be obtained, they are submitted to the labs for grading reports or gem origin identification reports. Then they go through the cataloging process, where the pieces are tested, gemstones are measured, and weight estimates are provided and entered into the system. Then all this information is compiled into the digital online catalog. If it's a signature sale, it also goes into the printed catalog and it goes to print. Those catalogs are distributed to all the bidders.    Then the marketing begins. Biographies are written and researched. Anything that will assist in helping to provide more information to a potential bidder is entered. Then the publicity begins and the public previews begin. The pieces are shipped and sent off to our major satellite offices where they are set up in jewelry showcases, and they are available for public preview. Sometimes special events are planned around these previews, and the planning behind those special events takes place as well. Once all of that is complete, then the pieces are offered up on auction day. When the pieces have successfully sold at auction, then they are packaged up again, money is collected, and the pieces are shipped to the new owners.   Sharon: Do you ever have repeat clients or repeat people who call you and say, "Gina, I have something I want to show you," because you've developed a relationship?   Gina: Yes, definitely. I have regular consignors and I have regular buyers, and sometimes they are one in the same. There are people that are constantly refining their jewelry collections, so sometimes they'll sell a piece that they no longer need, but they're also collecting pieces that are more to their evolving tastes. We have collectors. Then we also have repeat consignors. I have many clients who have accumulated lovely jewelry collections over the years, and they're very slowly thinning the collection or letting each piece go once they're ready to sell it.   Sharon: Is that because they're aging out, let's say, or they get tired of a piece?   Gina: It could be either. If you're a collector and you're refining your collection, then yes, you're refining it and you're selling pieces that no longer fit in with your style that is evolving. If you're downsizing, you could be downsizing everything in your life, including your home, your clothes and your jewelry collection. Sometimes lifestyle. Especially today, lifestyles change. We no longer wear the jewelry we used to wear, and it's just sitting around. Maybe it's time to sell those pieces to put it into something else. Maybe you want to start a college fund for your child, and that jewelry you're no longer wearing anymore is going to go into that fund. There are all kinds of reasons why people sell their jewelry. Sometimes it's a divorce settlement. Sometimes it's by court order. We've had many sales that have been by court order. The government wants to collect their taxes and it's a liquidation. Jewelry is going up for sale because it's by court order.   Sharon: It's certainly true that lifestyles change very fast and what you wore. I think, "Well, you're a middle-aged woman now. Am I going to wear what I wore when I was 20?" It's very different.   Gina, thank you very much for being here. I learned a lot. It was great to talk with you and I hope you will come back soon.   Gina: Thank you so much, Sharon. It was such a pleasure to talk to you as well.   We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.    

This episode continues our series of "industry spotlights," in which we focus on specific trends and opportunities in middle market M&A transactions. This episode focuses on the automotive reconditioning industry, a $5.4 billion industry that is highly fragmented and ripe for consolidation. Colonnade has extensive transaction experience in the automotive services industry and has been the sell side or buy side M&A advisor on many of the automotive services industry transactions that have taken place over the last decade. Colonnade has insider-level mastery of the drivers of valuation, competitive positioning, business trends, relevant metrics, and the right buyer universe, enabling us to provide superior deal execution to our clients. Colonnade recently published a white paper on the automotive reconditioning industry. The white paper is available here. In this episode, we answer the following questions: What is automotive reconditioning? Why do automotive dealerships outsource reconditioning? What is the industry size, and who are the largest participants in the industry? What are the value drivers for automotive reconditioning companies? What are the M&A trends in the automotive reconditioning industry?   What is automotive reconditioning? (02:10) Gina: Automotive reconditioning is the process of making a newly acquired vehicle retail-ready. Dealerships get cars in a couple of ways. On the new side, they get it directly from the OEMs, and on the used side, they may be buying it from auctions or taking vehicles as a trade-in. Used vehicles need to be reconditioned to be car lot ready.   Do dealerships have an in-house reconditioning department? (04:17) Gina: The majority of dealerships outsource reconditioning.   What is the size of the automotive reconditioning industry, and who are the industry participants? (05:01) Gina: We estimate that the automotive reconditioning industry is a $5.4 billion market. It is comprised of mainly single technician entrepreneurs, a technician who is skilled in a specific trade. When a dealership outsources reconditioning, they are probably outsourcing it to three to five reconditioning technicians that are independent contractors.   What types of dealerships typically outsource automotive reconditioning versus having it in-house? (06:25) Gina: The largest dealerships are the most likely to outsource because they realize how inefficient it is to have highly paid employees reconditioning cars.  They could use that time doing much more valuable service lane work. Independent dealerships and smaller dealerships tend to have automotive reconditioning done in-house.   How many companies are in the automotive reconditioning industry? (07:50) Gina:  We don't really see many companies of scale. Based on the number of dealerships out there, we estimated as many as 40,000 independent technicians nationwide doing this type of work.   Why do dealerships outsource automotive reconditioning? (09:57) Gina: Skilled technicians are expensive and in high demand at dealerships. Outsourcing automotive reconditioning helps to keep up the profitability of the dealership.   Why do dealerships need to make vehicles retail ready as quickly as possible? (10:30) Gina: New and used vehicle supplies are low, and demand is high. Low supply and high demand are driving prices of cars to an all-time high, so dealerships need to get vehicles retail ready as quickly as possible.   How do dealerships manage relationships with multiple outsourced automotive reconditioning vendors? (13:02) Gina: It is a lot of process management, and there is some software to manage the process, but still, managing five different vendors is inefficient, especially if the dealers do not control their daily activity because they are independent.   Who are the largest participants in the automotive reconditioning industry? (14:05) Gina: The largest in the industry is Dent Wizard. Some companies, such as Streamline Recon, are located in large metropolitan markets, and they may have some scale. But, aside from these companies, there are not many companies of scale. This industry is very fragmented.   What systems or processes do automotive reconditioning companies need to scale up? (16:16) Gina: There are a couple of reconditioning workflow management software available, which seem to be critical to any dealership technician relationships that they want to run efficiently. There is room for the adoption of robust workflow management software in the reconditioning process.   Does automotive reconditioning include fixing a vehicle's mechanical issues? (18:00) Gina: The mechanical part, making sure the car runs without banging noises and that it starts and stops, is all done before it gets to the reconditioning center. Automotive reconditioning is all about appearance.   How does the collision center industry compare with the automotive reconditioning sector? (19:10) Gina: The collision industry is a very different market. The work is largely being paid for by insurance companies in the collision industry and has nothing to do with dealerships. So, you do not see collision centers doing reconditioning work very often. They are very separate businesses.   What are the value drivers for automotive reconditioning companies? (20:38) Gina: Value drivers include size, number of employees, scale, and diversification of revenue. Also, process management is an important component.   What are the M&A trends in the automotive reconditioning industry? (22:34) Gina: We will see quite a bit of M&A activity in this space over the next decade. It is a profitable industry that is important to dealerships. Dealerships outsource automotive reconditioning to several vendors, which is inefficient in terms of process management. Automotive reconditioning companies that can do it all for dealerships will be the winners.     Host Information   Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Brookfield, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses.   Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families.   About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay focus on valuation - determining what your company is worth. Key takeaways from this episode are: The right valuation methodology depends on the industry and the company Valuation should not be overly focused on the multiple. It also depends on what you to apply the multiple to Market price discovery through a competitive process will drive the highest valuation In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to valuation: What are the different valuation methodologies used? (00:48) Gina: "There are comparable company trading, comparable transaction, and the more complex discounted cash flow valuations. There are also other types of valuation methods that are not relevant to what we do on a day-to-day, so we will focus on the three main ones." At what point in the process is valuation analysis generally performed? (01:12) Jeff: "It is often performed ahead of going to market. Many times, it is ahead of us doing due diligence. We might update these valuation analyses for our clients at various points throughout the process, and we do a gut check on whether we are ready to go to market." What is the value of hiring a sell-side financial advisor in determining the transaction price? (01:12) Jeff: "Ultimately, it is the market that sets the transaction price. The real value of hiring a financial advisor to help sell a business is to get the best price and terms, which is generally achieved through an auction process." What is a comparable transaction valuation? (02:43) Jeff: "It is what the market has offered up to companies that are comparable to the company being evaluated. For example, if a company sold at eight times EBITDA, it's logical to assume that another company that is very similar, or comparable, would trade at eight times EBITDA." What attributes of a target company will impact the comparable transaction multiple? (03:37) Jeff: "The multiple will depend on all sorts of attributes of the specific target company, whether it is growing faster or slower, whether the management team is better or worse, client concentration, or geographic concentration. All sorts of things influence the multiple that a buyer is willing to pay." What is comparable trading valuation, and how does it apply to middle market transactions? (04:17) Jeff: "This involves looking at where the comparable public companies are trading in the public markets. The comparable trading valuation metrics are a little more theoretical for the middle market transactions. It is a helpful metric and something used in negotiations with buyers, but there are all sorts of factors that drive the multiple relative to what you might expect to achieve in the private market." Gina: "Volatility in the public market will impact the valuation of public companies.  You do not see the same day to day volatility in a private transaction. For a middle market company, comparable trading valuation is less relevant because of the size differential." What is discounted cash flow valuation? (06:35) Jeff: "The discounted cash flow valuation is an analysis of the businesses' free cash flows. Then discount the cash flows at a certain discount rate to arrive at the net present value of all those cash flows. The biggest drivers of this analysis include the discount rate, which could be derived using the CAPM model, and a variety of other factors." What industries use revenue multiples? (09:37) Gina: "Pre-profitability companies use revenue multiples. It is often used in high growth type businesses such as software and biotech companies and recurring revenue companies. The revenue multiples can range depending on the industry." What is the rationale for using EBITDA multiples? (10:29) Gina: "EBITDA is a proxy for cash flow and normalizes income between various companies." How do you determine which multiple metrics to use? (11:58) Jeff: "There are many different metrics that buyers and sellers can focus on, and it is generally industry-specific. It is important for the seller and their advisor to focus on what are the right metrics for the seller's business." What are the multiple metrics applied to? (12:34) Gina: "There are a lot of different ways to look at what the metric is. Different methods are used in different industries. Some industries use GAAP accounting, and some industries use some special purpose accounting. There are also add-backs to EBITDA so that anything unusual and extraordinary can be added back to increase EBITDA and valuation." What is the significance of add-backs? (14:18) Jeff: "Add-backs help demonstrate what the company's earnings stream looks like going forward. It gives a sense of the pure earnings of the business." What are pro forma adjustments to EBITDA? (14:58) Gina: "It involves adjusting historical EBITDA for known future or recent arrangements, such as a decrease in expense or increase in operating efficiency. The adjusted EBITDA demonstrates how the business is going to operate going forward." What is synergy in an M&A transaction, and can the seller benefit? (17:13) Gina: "Synergy is when two companies combine, and instead of being one plus one equals two, one plus one equals three. That could be because of expense reductions or revenue enhancements. Buyers will benefit from synergies in the future. A competitive process will increase the likelihood that a seller will get paid for at least a portion of the synergies a buyer may achieve." How does customer concentration impact valuation? (19:26) Gina: "Customer concentration or any distribution channel concentration will typically reduce valuation. Customer concentration involves anything greater than 15%." How does the transaction process impact the price and term? (20:49) Jeff: "There are various factors that could lead to a potential buyer dropping out. Therefore, finding the greatest number of highly qualified buyers and working diligently through the process delivers the best price and term for sellers." What is the difference between enterprise value versus equity value? (21:47) Gina: "If a company has debt on the books, then the debt is subtracted from the enterprise value to get to the equity value." What is the ultimate answer to "What is my company worth?" (23:30) Gina: "Your company is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Our job is to create a competitive environment to yield the highest price and the best terms." Host Information Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Brookfield, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay continue their discussion on deal structuring. Today, the focus is on roll-ups. Key takeaways from this episode are: • Highly fragmented industries are ripe for roll-ups • A roll-up is an attractive exit alternative for companies that are subscale or have an incomplete management organization • Transparency from both the buyer and the seller leads to the most successful outcomes Other episodes in our series about deal structuring include price and terms, earn outs, rollover equity, and reps and warranty insurance.  Later in this episode, Gina is joined by our guest Rob Humble, Chief Revenue Officer at Innovative Aftermarket Systems ("IAS"), to share his insights from executing a roll-up strategy for IAS as the Senior Vice President of Strategy and Corporate Development. In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to roll-ups: What is a roll-up? (01:02) Gina: "A roll-up is when an owner, which could be a private equity owner or a strategic, starts with a platform company. The roll-up adds other companies in the same industry, and they're typically smaller companies than the platform. The add-on companies are rolled into the platform." What is the purpose of implementing a roll-up strategy? (01:34) Gina: "It's a way for a company to increase in size inorganically, quickly, and while doing so, they are recognizing both expense synergies and perhaps revenue synergies." Jeff: "It plays on the themes that we've talked about in other episodes, which is bigger is better, in many respects. Generally, bigger companies are more attractive to a wider audience of investors or buyers." What industries typically do roll-ups? (02:42) Gina: "One industry that comes to mind is the insurance agency industry. We have seen this time and time again, where a private equity firm buys an insurance agency, a large insurance agency, and then they start making smaller acquisitions." Jeff: "The insurance distribution sector is perfect for the roll-up strategy. It's low capital intensity, recurring revenue, and highly fragmented market." What type of companies implement roll-up strategies? (04:29) Jeff: "This strategy works for large public companies, private equity firms, and independent companies." What is the rationale for roll-ups? (05:34) Gina: "One is geographic. Number two, it might be because of specific product knowledge. Number three, it can be to get a specific customer. What is the financial benefit of roll-ups? (06:49) Jeff: "A large platform company is going to trade at a higher multiple than a smaller company. There's arbitrage if a large platform company acquires smaller add-on acquisitions and integrates successfully." Why is integration important? (07:56) Gina: "Sometimes, acquisitions fail because they fail to integrate properly. That is not just making sure everybody is on the same technology system, but integrating cultures, integrating client relationships, and integrating product sets. That is the real challenge in an acquisition." Jeff: "The integration is key to a lot of things, certainly to value maximization over time." How do add-on companies benefit from roll-ups? (10:23) Jeff: "The add-on companies benefit from the resources of the parent company, the larger enterprise. Add-on companies can grow their business, which probably will have some contingent consideration involved in the transaction, and be a part of the success." Gina: "The smaller company, ideally, will have some rollover equity or earn outs that are structured on growth in the company, so you get to participate in the upside." When Colonnade represents a seller into a roll-up, what diligence is done on the buyer? (12:10) Jeff: "We do diligence on the parent company and the financial sponsor. We talk about their track record and history in doing roll-ups. We do diligence on the acquisitions they have done already and the outlook of the combined entity. Part of the consideration to our client is likely going to be equity in this new entity, so we will think about how much to rollover, what's it worth, what are all the conditions around it, and who is in control." What is one of the challenges for sellers in a roll-up? And what are the trade-offs? (13:23) Gina: "One of the challenges for entrepreneurs when they go through a sale process is the sudden realization that they're going to have a boss. Entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs for a reason. They like running the show. It can be a challenge to be part of a larger organization and not be in charge." Jeff: "There are the trade outs with control. Being part of a larger organization, the add-on company benefits from the growth of the larger organization, increased size, and resources for future acquisitions." What is the potential upside for sellers that rolled over equity into the new entity from a financial perspective? (15:63) Gina: "The upside can be enormous. The next exit with the platform could be worth just as much if not more than when the seller went in and did the first transaction." What is your outlook on roll-ups used in transactions? (17:45) Gina: "Roll-ups are used all the time. Going into the next decade, I do not see a slow down in roll-ups as a strategy being deployed by private equity firms." Gina invites Rob Humble, Chief Revenue Officer at IAS, to share his insights from executing a roll-up strategy for IAS as the Senior Vice President of Strategy and Corporate Development. What is the most effective structure for proceeds to the seller for a roll-up? (18:40) • An acquisition under private equity ownership generally comes with an equity component • For sellers that are not looking to be a long-term part of a bigger organization, they are likely maximizing value at closing, which means they are going to value cash and as little earn out as possible • IAS was private equity-owned and was buying companies that bought into the private equity model, which is to invest the executive’s energy, and together produce greater value and then share in that value How do you guide sellers that shy away from roll-ups because they want to protect their employees? (21:13) • As the buyer, be honest and transparent as much as possible throughout the process • Sellers can build a deep trust with the buyer and can trust that the deal that they entered into together is going to work out for not only what the buyers’ strategic intent is, but sellers’ as well • It is best if the buyer can collaborate with the sellers on what are the ways that they can be more efficient together How do you get business owners comfortable with working for someone post the transaction? (23:33) • It comes back to honesty, transparency, and as much diligence both ways as possible. What would you tell a business owner that is getting ready to sell into a roll-up strategy? (23:51) • Get prepared and get organized. Perform diligence on your own company before you let somebody else look at your company • Sellers should understand why they want to sell then find a buyer that they believe meets that criteria Featured guest bio and contact information: Rob Humble Email: rhumble@iasdirect.com Rob Humble is the Chief Revenue Officer at Innovative Aftermarket Systems. Before coming to IAS Rob held strategy and corporate development leadership roles with financial services firms NetSpend and Rent-A-Center. Prior to his time in financial services, Rob held strategy, finance, and operations roles at Fortune 500 companies spanning the automotive, defense & aerospace, and chemical industries. Rob earned his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Washington University in St. Louis, graduating magna cum laude. He also holds an MBA from Harvard Business School. Rob lives in Austin, TX with his wife and two young kids. He enjoys hanging out with his family, distance running, binge-watching the hottest TV shows, watching Oklahoma Sooners football and indulging in random interests including knitting, furniture building, and home improvement. Host Information: Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a privateequity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Brookfield, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay continue their discussion on deal structuring. Today, we explore reps and warranties ("R&W") insurance. In this episode, we cover: · What is R&W insurance? · What is the pricing of R&W insurance? · What is the process to obtain R&W insurance? Key takeaways from this episode: · R&W insurance is a tried and true product, and securing it will not slow down the pace of a deal · Smaller deals, down to $10 million in size, can still get R&W insurance · R&W insurance is a great way for a seller to get more cash at close, rather than having 10%+ of the purchase price tied up in a multi-year escrow Other episodes in our series about deal structuring include price and terms, earn outs, rollover equity, and roll ups.  Later in this episode, Gina is joined by our guest Mike Wolf, who specializes in R&W insurance at Willis Towers Watson's M&A Group. In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to R&W insurance: What is R&W insurance? (00:27) Jeff: "R&W insurance insures the seller and buyer from a breach of representation and warranties in the purchase agreement. " What is the difference between R&W insurance and an escrow? (01:27) Jeff: "R&W insurance avoids utilizing an escrow. An escrow is deferred consideration that is withheld to make sure that these reps and warranties survive and that they are fulfilled post-transaction." How often is R&W insurance used in transactions? (02:38) Jeff: "R&W insurance is a relatively new concept in the M&A world." Gina: "It really came into being about seven years ago. Now, it is used in almost 95% of all transactions." What is the purpose of R&W insurance? (02:48) Gina: "In a purchase agreement, there's always a section called reps and warranties regarding the company and the seller. The seller has to represent fundamentals such as that the organization is in good standing, is licensed in the state, and the sellers have the authorization to do the transaction and have the consents. " What are other typical reps and warranties in the purchase agreement? (03:45) Gina: "There is usually a representation that the capitalization is correct, all subsidiaries are listed, the financial statements are in GAAP or other accounting standards used, there is an absence of undisclosed liabilities, the contracts are true and all have been disclosed, all obligations to related parties have been disclosed, all real property has been disclosed, all intellectual property has been disclosed, listed, and truthfully identified, litigation has been disclosed, privacy and data security representations are made, taxes have been paid, and employees and labor matters have been disclosed." What is the typical coverage amount? (06:12) Gina: "The coverage is typically 10% to 15% of the purchase price. For deals under the size of $50 million, the coverage percentage may go up.” What is the typical premium for R&W insurance? Are there any other fees? (07:11) Gina: "Typically, we see premiums between 3% to 5% of the coverage amount. Economically, it does get cheaper with more coverage. Small deals are more expensive on a percentage basis; larger deals get a break. Another fee is the underwriting fee charged by the insurer, typically around $50k." Who pays for the R&W insurance? (08:50) (13:29) Gina: "This is where the negotiation comes in. Everybody has a different view. The buyer wants the seller to pay; the seller wants the buyer to pay." Jeff: "It is really a buyer's policy. No matter who is paying the premium or who is paying their share of it, it is the property of the buyer." Why do buyers prefer R&W insurance versus an escrow? (09:51) Gina: "Buyers do like R&W insurance. A breach of a representation and warranty can cause a lot of conflict between the seller and the buyer when there is an escrow, especially when the seller is continuing to manage the company. It's easier if there is a breach of representation and warranty and the buyer goes to the insurance--no conflict." What is Colonnade's typical process in representing sellers to negotiate who is paying for the R&W insurance? (11:02) Gina: "At Colonnade, when we ask for the indications of interest, the letters of intent, or bid letters, we ask the buyers to indicate whether they are going to pay the premium for the R&W insurance. Some buyers will pay the full amount, some won't, and some will pay a portion of it. It is a negotiated point. Another negotiated point is who pays the underwriting fee." What is the process of obtaining R&W insurance? (12:26) Gina: "The process starts very early. It starts when the seller is picking their legal counsel. It is important that the seller has legal counsel that has experience with R&W insurance. Also, the seller or buyer will need a broker." Why is the broker's role in obtaining R&W insurance? (13:37) Gina: "The broker will work with multiple insurance companies to get the best rate and the best coverage.” At what point during the transaction process should buyers or sellers speak with a broker? (13:37) Gina: "The proper time to speak to a broker is once the LOI has been signed and you have entered the exclusivity period." Generally, how long does it take to obtain the R&W insurance? (15:31) Gina: "Generally, it takes only one to two weeks to get through the underwriting process. For a 60-day exclusivity, contact the broker day one of 60 days, but probably around day 30 or day 35 is when the representation and warranty process in terms of getting the coverage starts." Jeff: "The timing is really important. Brokers and carriers are pretty aggressive these days, so they will move pretty quickly.” Who are the dominant carriers and brokers for R&W insurance in recent years? (19:19) Gina: "For brokers, two that I've seen a lot are Willis Towers Watson and Lockton. There are many carriers, including AIG, Zurich, Hartford, Allied, and Berkshire. The brokers will know who the right carrier is for the right types of companies.” Gina invites Mike Wolf, who specializes in R&W insurance at Willis Towers Watson's M&A Group, to share his insights. What is the typical cost of R&W insurance? (21:40) Mike: "Similar to other insurances, there is the premium, which is usually 2.6% to 3.3% of the limit purchase. Second, there is the underwriting fee, which is generally $30,000 to $50,000. Third, there are surplus lines, taxes, and fees, which is another 2% to 5% of the premium. Lastly, there is a fee to the broker to facilitate these products." What items are not covered by R&W insurance? (25:21) Mike: "There are the standard exclusions such as asbestos and PCBs, underfunded pension plans, certain types of NOLs and tax attributes. Right now, COVID-19 has become an interesting exclusion. Transfer pricing is sometimes an exclusion. In addition to the standard exclusions, there are deal-specific exclusions. Deal-specific exclusions arise either at the stage of getting the quotes or during the underwriting process." What are the common things that come up during underwriting? (30:38) Mike: "It depends on what the target does. The common themes are wage and hour, employee independent contractor issues, SLSA issues, anti-corruption and bribery." What size deal is too small for R&W insurance? (32:15) Mike: "Everybody will tell you something different, but I think $10 million." What is the typical brokerage process? (36:15) Mike: "Phase one is going out and getting the quotes, which doesn't take very long, and we don't charge any money for that. The first non-refundable fee is once the client selects an insurer, which is when the process really gets started." Featured guest bio and contact information: Scott Wolf: Email: scott.wolf@willistowerswatson.com Scott Wolf is a Client Relationship Director at Willis Towers Watson. Scott specializes in assisting strategic and financial buyers and sellers with transactional insurance, including reps and warranties insurance, tax insurance, and contingent liability insurance. Since joining Willis Towers Watson in 2017, Scott has worked on over 100 transactions involving representations and warranties insurance, ranging in enterprise value from approximately $9 million to $3 billion. Scott's prior experience includes working as an associate at DLA Piper, an associate at Gould & Ratner, and an associate at Kirkland and Ellis. Host Information: Gina Cocking: Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private-equity backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Waukesha, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay: Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay continue their discussion on deal structuring. Today, we explore rollover equity, a form of contingent consideration in which the seller takes a portion of its proceeds as equity ownership of the new or acquiring company. In this episode, we cover: Why is rollover equity important? How often is it used? How is it structured? What happens in platform investments vs smaller add ons? How does it differ from management incentive pools and from taking stock as consideration in a publicly traded company? We talked about how the math works related to rollover equity in leveraged transactions and how we help manage these critical negotiations with buyers. Importantly, we talked about how rollover equity can set up all parties in the transaction for success through the alignment of interests. Other episodes in our series about deal structuring include price and terms, earn outs, R&W insurance, and roll ups.  More than two-thirds of M&A transactions in recent times utilize rollover equity. The primary purpose of rollover equity is to align interests through shared economic ownership. Rollover equity gives the owner a second bite at the apple, as you’ll hear in the episode and read in the show notes. Rollover equity is also tax-deferred. Later in the episode, Jeff is joined by our guest Vernon Rew, a partner at Whitaker, Chalk, Swindle & Schwartz, who shares his perspective on closing conditions and the importance of staying on task and getting deals to the finish line. In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to rollover equity: What is rollover equity? (00:55) Gina: "The sellers of the company, the founders, the owners are going to take some of their proceeds and roll it over into equity and ownership of what we call Newco. Newco is the new or acquiring entity." Why is rollover an important equity component of a transaction? (01:52) Jeff: "Probably the most important answer or topic here is that it aligns interests, particularly when you're talking to private equity-backed buyers." How often is rollover equity used in transactions? (02:56) Gina: "67% of the transactions in recent times have utilized rollover equity." What are the tax implications of rollover equity? (05:10) Gina: "Taking equity as consideration in a deal is tax-deferred. With equity that you are rolling over, no taxes are paid at the closing. You're not going to pay taxes until you sell that equity and convert it into cash." What are the other advantages of rollover equity? (05:55) Gina: "Another advantage of rollover equity is that it gives the owner a second bite at the apple. Rollover equity can be valuable. With that second bite at the apple, we have seen many cases of people that have gotten very wealthy with the second turn of the sale of the business, and even third turn." What is the seller demonstrating to the buyer when rolling over equity? (08:40) Jeff: "Showing commitment and confidence in the forecast and the business, and just setting up the business for success through mutual understanding." What is the role of a financial advisor, such as Colonnade, in rollover equity discussions? (09:30) Gina: "Rollover equity introduces a whole other component to diligence where it's the diligence of the other side. That is where a trusted advisor's perspective is helpful. In our case, with many of our clients on the deals we work on, we know the universe of potential buyers pretty well, so we can give our perspective." If selling the business to a private equity firm as a platform company, what type of diligence should be performed? (10:15) Jeff: "There is due diligence around the private equity firm and their experience and track record. The dating dynamics of some of these management meetings are fundamental because these are going to be your partners." If selling the business to a private equity-backed strategic company, what type of diligence should be performed? (10:47) Jeff: "You have to conduct due diligence and relative valuation on this private equity-backed firm that already exists and has operations and that already has a set private market valuation." How is rollover equity different from stock options and incentive pools? (12:05) Gina: "Stock options and incentive pools are subjective decisions by the board as to what you get for hitting certain performance goals. It is very different. Rollover equity is your property, and you have property rights to it. They cannot take that away." Are there restrictions on what the seller can do with the rollover equity? (13:01) Jeff: "There are almost certainly going to be restrictions around what you can do with the stock. The operating agreement that your attorneys will help you review, and you'll sign onto, will typically have pretty strict covenants related to how you can dispose of the stock." What type of securities are used with rollover equity? (15:45) Gina: "Our goal is to get pari passu, meaning the same type. We make sure in deals today that the sellers get the same type of equity as the buyers. If the buyers are getting preferred, we want the sellers to get preferred." Typically, what percentage of the total transaction consideration is rolled over? (18:12) Gina: "It's a complicated question. Buyers typically look for 10%-40% equity rollover. It depends on who the buyer is. Private equity buyers will probably want to see a lot of rollover equity. Buyers look at it as a core part of their strategy to incentivize everyone." How do rollover equity considerations differ if the buyer is a public company? (19:40) Jeff: "With public companies, the discussion is usually different. It can be a tax discussion. It is a separate analysis. The thesis is the same, but it is used really for other purposes. When do rollover equity discussions typically take place in a transaction? (20:45) Jeff: "We usually have it as one of the near-final conversations with the buyer that we select in exclusivity." How is the seller's rollover equity percentage ownership of the new company determined? (22:47) Gina: "It is based on the equity value of the new or acquiring company and depends on the leverage in the transaction. The percentage of your rollover proceeds does not necessarily equate to the percentage of the new company ownership." What are the benefits of using a financial advisor in rollover equity discussions between the seller and buyer? (25:50) Jeff: "Our experience in working with these types of transactions is powerful in terms of making sure that they get done well for the seller. Otherwise, these things can blow up pretty quickly if you just put people in a room and start talking about rollover equity." What effect does any additional equity grants or incentives for employees have on the seller's equity rollover percentage ownership of the company? (26:48) Jeff Guylay: "There'll be diluted pro-rata just like everyone else. The sellers and buyers have locked arms, and they are in the same security and position. Any additional equity grants or incentives will dilute everyone on a pro-rata or equal basis." Will current sellers of the company be asked to rollover equity at the next transaction? If so, why? (27:06) Gina: "Current sellers of the company - who are important to the ongoing operations of the business - may have to rollover equity again in the future at the next transaction. For example, a private equity firm has bought your company, and you rolled over equity. The private equity firm then sells the company to another private equity firm in the future. The new owner would like to see you be equally incentivized or have skin in the game and would like to have some equity rollover." Can the owner completely exit the business after a few years post-transaction? (28:52) Jeff: "That is usually a good conversation to have with buyers as long as we're clear and upfront about it. We want to make sure that everyone knows that the management transition plan has to start immediately. You have to be in a position where you've got the next set of leaders up and ready for the next transaction, whether it's one, three, or five years." Jeff invites Vernon Rew, a partner at Whitaker, Chalk, Swindle & Schwartz, to share his perspective on closing conditions in a transaction. What closing conditions do you see in M&A transactions, and why are these conditions so important? Closing conditions are critical because if a single closing condition is not met, you're likely not closing It is important to obtain all necessary third-party consents and all required regulatory approvals The material adverse effect and the material adverse change provisions are essential and often highly negotiated Focusing on the process and keeping all members of the seller team on task and focused on getting to the close are critical Time is critical. A delay in completing a closing consideration could kill a deal Featured guest bio and contact information: Vernon Rew Email: vrew@whitakerchalk.com Vernon Rew has over 35 years of legal experience representing business clients in corporate matters, contract negotiations, mergers and acquisitions transactions, and securities law compliance matters. Vernon has represented both public companies and privately held entities in a wide variety of industries. Vernon's mergers and acquisitions practice has included representation of both sellers and buyers in a large number of transactions throughout his career. He has worked in a wide range of manufacturing and service industries in his corporate and contracts negotiating practice. In his securities law compliance practice, he has counseled clients with SEC filings, tender offers, public offerings, and going private transactions. Vernon considers himself a relationship lawyer and is an experienced counselor and negotiator on behalf of his clients.

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay continue their discussion around the due diligence process related to the sale of a company. This episode is part of a four-episode series exploring the due diligence process that began with 003 on the business aspects of the due diligence process. EP003: Business aspects of due diligence: https://coladv.com/podcasts/003/ EP004: Legal aspects of due diligence: https://coladv.com/podcasts/004-due-diligence-deep-clean-and-hygiene/ EP005: Accounting aspects of due diligence (today’s episode) EP006: Technology aspects of due diligence (coming soon) In today’s episode, we invite our featured guest, Joe Kaczmarek, to share his insights on how companies can best prepare for an M&A transaction. Joe is the National Fintech practice leader at RSM, a leading provider of audit, tax, and consulting services focused on the middle market. Show Notes: There are six key takeaways from the episode (35:17) Start early Review your financials monthly Keep books in GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) Get an audit Prepare forecasts for your business and track achievement to forecast Invest in the finance department. If your goal is to sell your company, the number one action you should take (related to accounting and finance due diligence) is to get a good CFO In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to the accounting aspects of due diligence: When should an owner start preparing to sell their company? (01:20) Gina: “It starts years in advance. At the very basic level, a business owner or leader of a company should be reviewing the financials on a monthly basis. The reason is to get comfortable with the cadence of their business so that they can talk to the financials.” Does a company need a public audit prior to selling the company? (1:40) Gina: “We recommend all companies have a financial audit for several years before they go to market.”  What is the difference between an audit and a compilation? (01:58) Gina: “A compilation is when accountants come in and put your financials together for you. They may even do it on a GAAP basis. An audit means that the accounting firm is doing a deep dive into the numbers. They’re looking at bank reconciliations. They’re doing different types of testing for fraud and for receivables and payables, et cetera. It’s a very involved process, but it is a must for a business that is planning for a successful sale.” Do I need a financial forecast? (02:35) Gina: “A company should keep a forecast and measure themselves to the forecast and plan. The reason for this is twofold: 1)  I believe that you only get to where you’re going if you plan for it, and 2) buyers are going to look at the company’s financial forecast and how they are doing compared to that forecast.” What other financial statements must be in order? (03:54) Gina: “Another good thing to prepare for a sale process is a monthly data book. This data book includes the income statement, cash flow statement, balance sheet, and MD&A (Management Discussion and Analysis).” How does a company select an accounting firm to work with on accounting due diligence? (06:25) Gina: “I usually recommend that companies not go with the local firm that does their tax returns. Typically (I recommend) a regional accounting firm, or a national one, because you need a team that can defend its choices in accounting principles interpretation.”  When should a company start working on accounting due diligence? (08:20) Jeff (07:37): “The sooner the better. The first audit is the worst. After that, it gets a little bit easier. Getting that process rolling is important.” When is meeting the financial forecast key? (10:21) Gina: “The financial forecast is crucial when we’re actually selling the business. The key is when you’re in the sale process, from the moment we release that confidential information memorandum (CIM) until the check clears and the business is sold, the company has got to make its numbers.” What is the management team’s role in owning the forecast? (11:44) Jeff: “It’s important that the management team understands and owns the forecast because they’re going to have to live with it. The financial forecast obviously develops the metrics upon which you’re going to be judged either through management contracts, earn outs or just general performance. You really want to be confident that you’re going to hit the numbers one, two, three years out.”  What is an MD&A (Management Discussion and Analysis)? (13:45) Gina: “A paragraph or a page and a half that explains the numbers, e.g. ‘Revenues were up by X because we sold Y more; expenses were down by Z because we lost three people in headcount.’”  How should revenues be broken out? (14:12) Gina: “By number of products sold, pricing, number of customers; whatever metrics that are core to your business. Companies that can do that generally have a good finance department.” What are some common missteps Colonnade sees in accounting practices of middle market companies? (16:40) Gina: “The finance department is looked at as a cost center.” Owners keep the books themselves or use a part-time bookkeeper. When companies don’t hire a CFO, there’s a potential problem.  What are some other missteps management can make when getting ready to sell their company? (18:00) Jeff: “When the CEO is the master of everything. He’s the head of sales, he’s the head of marketing, he’s the head of IT sometimes, and in a lot of cases, he or she is the CFO. That’s a problem because an investor could come in and say, ‘Well, I’m not going to pay $50 million for this one guy or this one woman. Where’s the team?’” When do you know that a company has the infrastructure to be sold? (18:35) Jeff: “The real enterprise value gets built when you say, ‘This is a business that is going to be my legacy, but I don’t need to be here as the CEO or the founder. I built this business. I built out a team. The finance function is all built out. The marketing function is built out. The sales function is built out. This business runs on its own. And so if you want me here or not, that’s fine, but my team is really more important than I am.”  Why does a company wanting to be sold need a CFO? (19:00) Gina: “Without a CFO, when a buyer comes in, they will do a negative adjustment to your historical financial statements to fill that role. That CFO role will be built into your valuation regardless. So invest in the CFO. It’s going to be worth far more than not doing it.” What is the difference between GAAP and cash accounting? (20:22) Gina: “Here’s the non-CPA’s way of explaining GAAP. Under GAAP, the timing of your revenues and expenses need to match, and they need to also match the timing of your liabilities, which means if you are selling a service that is a service for six months, you receive the payment upfront, the revenue upfront, you’re going to have to recognize that revenue over six months.” What is an example of GAAP accounting vs. cash accounting? (21:00) Gina: “ A common example is payroll. Accruals should be done for payroll. Let’s say you pay your employees every other Friday. The month doesn’t always end on the fourth Friday, so you end up having to pay in the following month, let’s say the Wednesday the following month. (When you pay in the following month) you’re paying for the prior month’s work. You need to do an accrual for that payroll so it matches the month in which it occurred. So accruals need to be done under GAAP and revenue needs to be recognized in line with what the services or the products provide.” What industries can use modified cash accounting? (21:36) Gina: “We work a lot in the F&I (Auto Finance and Insurance) and administrator space. (These companies) can be sold on a modified cash basis. But that doesn’t happen in all industries.” How does modified cash accounting work when selling a business in the F&I or administrator space? (22:16) Jeff: The important thing is understanding the difference between the two accounting processes or procedures. In the cases where it’s beneficial to the clients to present themselves on a cash or a modified cash basis, we’re certainly going to do that to maximize value. There has to be a spreadsheet that says, here’s the audit according to GAAP, and here are the cash financials that we want you to value the company on, and here are the adjustments we’ve made to get there, and it has to be logical and make sense and be consistent.” Gina invites Joe Kaczmarek, an expert in audit tax and consulting services, to share his perspective on due diligence accounting aspects. What is the difference between an audit and a sell side Quality of Earnings (QOE)? (24:19) Joe: An audit is to go back and verify information at a point in time. We’re validating the accuracy of your balance statement and your income statement. When we do a quality of earnings (QOE) report, we’re really stripping out one-time expenses, one-time revenues, and coming down to a real accreditable earnings number on a cash basis. From a quality of earnings perspective, it’s also much broader.”  How many years back should an audit go? (27:02) Joe: “What I typically say is, ‘If you want three years in the marketing documents, it typically presents the best if those are all audited.’ (Three years). But more importantly than how many years is having a firm that really understands the industry and is really nailing down those things that could come up in diligence.” What are the bare minimum processes and procedures a firm should have in place before they go to market? (28:02) Joe:  “The big thing is having a CPA on staff and having that person really understand what’s required. We like to see monthly financial statements, on not only a cash basis but an accrual basis, a GAAP basis.” What else should companies thinking of selling consider? (28:34) Joe: “investing in your financial reporting group. That’s not something that’s providing revenue so it’s often overlooked. You really need to have the infrastructure there to be able to report and provide the information necessary to go through diligence.”  How quickly should a company be able to close the prior month’s books? (29:07) Joe: “It really depends on the complexity of the organization and the systems they have in place. It can take two days to two months. (However,) those companies taking two months realize very quickly through this process that that’s not going to be adequate (fast enough). If it’s a private equity group coming in to acquire them, they’re going to need reporting on a monthly basis that’s going to be out within a week or two from the month-end or the year-end.” What is your view on QuickBooks? (30:36) Joe: “Depending on the industry that you work in, Quickbooks may be adequate. QuickBooks could be fine for smaller companies and midsize companies. But you’ve got to realize what the limitations with QuickBooks are (such as controls, access, and integration).” How should companies account for a PPP loan? (32:40) Joe: “There is going to be a portion of it that’s going to be forgiven, if not all of it. You should record it as debt. Then as you get approval for that forgiveness, that’s the point in time when it should flow through your income statement for GAAP purposes. If you look at a transaction, that’s one of those one-time items that will most likely be backed out, and I would say that’s non-operating revenue, so it should be down below the line.” What’s one piece of advice you would give a company that’s about to go through an M&A process? (33:47) Joe: “Engage a reputable firm to conduct sell-side due diligence. Sell-side due diligence firms will dig into the company’s financial information and figure out where there may be issues. If identified issues are likely to be deal-breakers, then the company will need to pause the process until the issues are fixed.” Featured guest bio and contact information:  Joe Kaczmarek Email: joe.kaczmarek@rsmus.com Joe Kaczmarek services as the National Fintech leader at RSM. In this role, he is responsible for driving the firm's strategic objections in fintech, while assisting traditional financial service clients with their digital transformation. Joe also leads RSM's specialty finance practice for the Great Lake Region. Joe has expertise servicing fintech and online lenders, direct to consumer lenders, sales financing lenders, purchasers of automobiles and other retail installment contracts, rent-to-own companies, title lenders, purchasers of distressed debt, mortgage originators and servers, and various types of commercial lenders. Joe has vast experience providing and supervising audit, consulting, and risk management services to entities ranging in size from startup companies to international organizations. Joe also has extensive experience in transaction advisory services working with private equity groups, venture capital firms, and clients. Joe earned his bachelor's degree and MBA from Eastern Illinois University.   Host Information Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private-equity backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Waukesha, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million. *** For more information, read Colonnade's blog post, Accounting Due Diligence: https://coladv.com/blog If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, and please consider leaving us a short review. To learn more about Colonnade Advisors, go to https://coladv.com/ Follow us on LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/company/colonnade-advisors-llc_2

Key Takeaways:03:43 - Self meditation08:47 - Connect with your employees as a salon owner14:22 - Being a salon owner16:36 - Right person for the salon industry18:54 - Why do most salon staff leave their jobs?22:14 - Health is wealthQuotes:“You can be a lot more vulnerable because it's just you, and you're just feeling the feels, you're living within yourself. Sometimes it's hard to do that, personally.” (03:56) (Jay)“When you're left with your own thoughts, then you might be distracting yourself from every single day.” (04:05) (Jason)“No stylists left behind.” (05:20) (Jason)“Bigger groups of people leave more room for diversity.” (06:46) (Gina)“It's important to connect one-on-one with them.” (08:26) (Jay)“If you've tried to force somebody into something they don't want, then find why do that? I mean that's like the dumbest thing in the world.” (10:10) (Doug)“People don't quit salons, they quit leaders.” (13:43) (Gina)“It's crazy, people want to be seen, heard, valued, and want to live a beautiful life. And it's sad. It makes me really sad to read just what people are going through. So I'm really passionate about that, I think that salon owners are the most amazing unsung heroes. We love salon owners.” (18:05) (Gina)“People support what they help create.” (19:49) (Gina)“You shouldn't be a 100% booked, if you're a hundred percent booked, stop.” (22:08) (Jay)“Creating a safe space is my biggest tip, and it's not easy. It's a lot of work.” (24:06) (Gina)

 **PLEASE NOTE** Read outs of Tuesday's BravoCon Tweets will be in a standalone episode posted later this week! RHOC EPISODE 2  Check ins  Jolie and Kelly at tennis. Shannon’s daughter going to a dance. Back to tennis.  Kelly wants to do a skincare line with creepy Dr. Brian. Brian: WE should design something so it’s in a travel kit… brilliant.  Kelly is forcing her daughter to become a spokesperson for it. Jolie: People are saying you’re a cokehead. WOW just diving right in.  DM to Jolie: Why is your mom a fucking loser ass bitch?  This is real impact! I wonder if Vicki will ever apologize, the way Teresa had to apologize to daniel for prostitution whore.  SOPHIE GETS READY FOR A DANCE Shannon is mad at how short the dress is.  Cut to her daughter in interview: God created everyone beautiful… I just want to get that message across. … what?!  Sophie’s date arrives. He’s wearing white socks. Sophie should run.  Shannon’s rule: You do drugs, you die.  AT EMILY’S Emily is getting dinner ready for Shane.  Emily’s dog is named Fisker?  Emily has Shane’s mother over for her birthday dinner. Shane isn’t there and “might come.”  Shane: “I’m gtting hounded by everyone, this is getting to be a degree of harrassment.” He’s such an asshole. He’s so awful and says “Fine bye.” and hangs up like a little brat. I hate him.  Emily: This dinner was a lot for me. It was a lot of sacrifice. ...you hired a chef.  ACT TWO BRAUNWYN’S MOTHER She looks like that designer… She said “oh my goddess. You get to sleep in.”  This lady went to med school?! Then she went to burning man and it changed everything.  She’s like Lydia’s mother dialed up.  AT GINA’S HOUSE When they flashed to gina’s picture of her family and matt is blurred.  Gina has a date tonight. Kelly and Gina have no chemistry whatsoever.  They LOVE cutting to the high taco guy. “Frank the milkman”  Gina doesn’t know what Matt will think.  BRAUNWYN SEDUCES HER HUSBAND. Sean walks in with roses. BORINGGGG.  Talk about how on southern charm Shep wrote Butt stuff question mark on the bed for madison?  I like that they have a love shack… if you can afford it… that isn’t about the kids running around.  Gina and Braunwyn flashback talking about their marraiges…. They were in some sort of wet suit and in a gym??  Is sean less attractive close up?  The fact that we haven’t seem tamra in 2 acts says a lot about her.  ACT THREE Commercial…. The real housebirds of eagle island.  VALENTINE’S NIGHT Braunwyn leads sean into the room. It’s so so weird that they do this on all shows. “Let’s go have sex now!!” Does anyone believe they actually go in there and have sex? I have expect them to cut back to them mid sex.  At Emily’s, the dog drinks toilet water and licks her.  TAMRA AND EDDIE AT DINNER Eddie thinks Tamra is excusing every action Shannon took last year, and is Tamra doing the same with Vicki?  Eddie must be so sick of Tamra constantly going back to Vicki.  The text messages… Shannon: She blew a stop sign earlier this month. How does she know that?!  Tamra thinks its weird that Vicki was giving Gina advice but also talked shit about her in the text messages.  ACT FOUR TAMRA’S PARTY Tamra prepares for the party.  Emily: My goal is to not threaten to kill anyone. Gina: It’s good to have goals.  Gina gets out of the car and we get a full view of her outfit. It looks horrendous. Also she didn’t think her driver.  Shannon is still bitter with Emily. Emily says Shannon blocked her.  Shannon: Tamra and I blocked emily at the same time. Shannon can never do anything alone.  ACT FIVE BACK AT TAMRA’S PARTY Tamra: My biggest decision every morning is which staircase to go down?!! … I usually use this one. (so serious)  Ryan is upset he and Shane can’t have a beer together. OF COURSE he wants to hang out with Shane. They’re both the worst.  Pig video…. Kelly called Vicki a pig, it’s a low blow. Vicki insinuated that Kelly does coke!!! That’s way worse!!  Vicki and horrible Steve Lodge walk in who I hate.  Vicki avoids greeting everyone but Kelly and Braunwyn.  Soon everyone goes inside. Vicki brings up the pig video to Emily and Tamra.  ACT SIX Vicki and Tamra talk about the Kelly stuff.  Tamra agrees to set up a talk between Kelly and Vicki. Kelly refuses to talk to her. Her reputation is ruined. Kelly is annoyed Tamra and Shannon haven’t picked a lane.  Vicki goes outside to talk to Kelly. She follows her back into the house. Kelly doesn’t want to talk. Vicki: You think you’re a beauty queen? 

In today's episode, we're going to show you how to work from home teaching English online. Gina is a mom of 8 (you read that right, 8 kids) who makes her living working at home, teaching English online! Listen to today's podcast to learn how you can do the same! Did you know that you can make $20-25 an hour teaching English online!  You can set your own schedule, work from home, and find freedom teaching English to children abroad. Gina did it! You can make money from home, teaching English online too! Click here for more information on how to teach English online   Enjoy the podcast; we hope it inspires you to explore what's possible for your family! Join the Flip Your Life Community NOW for as little as $19 per month! https://flippedlifestyle.com/flipyourlife FULL TRANSCRIPT Jocelyn: Hey, y'all. On today's show, we're going to show you how to work from home teaching English online. Shane: Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle Podcast, where life always comes before work. We're your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. We're a real family that figured out how to make our entire living online, and now we help other families do the same. Are you ready to flip your life? All right. Let's get started. Shane: What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to The Flipped Lifestyle Podcast. It is great to be back with you again today. Super excited for this episode, because we are kicking off a new series here on The Flipped Lifestyle Podcast, all about different ways to work from home and make money online. You know, Jocelyn and I and the community ... We have a lot of trainings about a lot of different things you can do online. You can offer goods, you can offer services, you can offer digital products, you can offer physical products, you can do coaching, but most of our focus is on membership-based websites. Now, I- Jocelyn: And essentially becoming a business owner. Shane: Yeah. And when you become a business owner, that can mean a lot of different things you have to learn and a lot of different responsibilities. You got to build a website, you got to manage your brand, you got to manage your social media presence, you got to create courses and content, and that can be very overwhelming for people. And a lot of people have asked us, "What are some other ways to work from home? What are some other ways to make money online? What are some other ways to live the flipped lifestyle, to get to control my schedule, to get to work when I want to and be more available for my family and for my kids?" So that's where this series came from. We are going to be bringing on a number of guests who make money online and work from home in different ways such as creating and selling courses or even owning and operating a membership. And our first guest in this series is Jocelyn's friend Gina. Gina, welcome to The Flipped Lifestyle Podcast. Gina: Thank you. Jocelyn: Yes, we are excited to talk to you today. And Gina's actually someone who I know in real life. We used to work together a few years ago. And of course, we were Facebook friends, and I see she is always posting cool stuff about her job. And I sent her a message not too long ago, and I said, "Would you be willing to come onto our podcast and talk about what it is that you're doing?" So let's get into that just a little bit. Tell us a little bit about you and your family and what it is that you are doing online. Gina: Okay. I have a large family. I have eight kids at home, and I teach ... Well, English as a second language to Chinese children at home. So I have been doing that a little over a year now, and it is the best job I have ever had. Shane: I bet. Gina: It is. Shane: It's probably the best break you've ever had, as well. Gina: It is, actually, and most people would think you want to be with kids more, but yes. And I actually get up at three, four in the morning to do that. It's just an awesome job.

In today's episode, we're going to show you how to work from home teaching English online. FULL TRANSCRIPT Jocelyn: Hey, y'all. On today's show, we're going to show you how to work from home teaching English online. Shane: Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle Podcast, where life always comes before work. We're your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. We're a real family that figured out how to make our entire living online, and now we help other families do the same. Are you ready to flip your life? All right. Let's get started. Shane: What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to The Flipped Lifestyle Podcast. It is great to be back with you again today. Super excited for this episode, because we are kicking off a new series here on The Flipped Lifestyle Podcast, all about different ways to work from home and make money online. You know, Jocelyn and I and the community ... We have a lot of trainings about a lot of different things you can do online. You can offer goods, you can offer services, you can offer digital products, you can offer physical products, you can do coaching, but most of our focus is on membership-based websites. Now, I- Jocelyn: And essentially becoming a business owner. Shane: Yeah. And when you become a business owner, that can mean a lot of different things you have to learn and a lot of different responsibilities. You got to build a website, you got to manage your brand, you got to manage your social media presence, you got to create courses and content, and that can be very overwhelming for people. And a lot of people have asked us, "What are some other ways to work from home? What are some other ways to make money online? What are some other ways to live the flipped lifestyle, to get to control my schedule, to get to work when I want to and be more available for my family and for my kids?" So that's where this series came from. We are going to be bringing on a number of guests who make money online and work from home in different ways such as creating and selling courses or even owning and operating a membership. And our first guest in this series is Jocelyn's friend Gina. Gina, welcome to The Flipped Lifestyle Podcast. Gina: Thank you. Jocelyn: Yes, we are excited to talk to you today. And Gina's actually someone who I know in real life. We used to work together a few years ago. And of course, we were Facebook friends, and I see she is always posting cool stuff about her job. And I sent her a message not too long ago, and I said, "Would you be willing to come onto our podcast and talk about what it is that you're doing?" So let's get into that just a little bit. Tell us a little bit about you and your family and what it is that you are doing online. Gina: Okay. I have a large family. I have eight kids at home, and I teach ... Well, English as a second language to Chinese children at home. So I have been doing that a little over a year now, and it is the best job I have ever had. Shane: I bet. Gina: It is. Shane: It's probably the best break you've ever had, as well. Gina: It is, actually, and most people would think you want to be with kids more, but yes. And I actually get up at three, four in the morning to do that. It's just an awesome job. Shane: So what is your background? Okay, we're going to get into teaching English as a second language online. So you actually do this live, right? This actually happens online? Gina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Shane: Okay. So what is- Gina: Yes. Shane: What is your background? What were you doing before the eight children arrived or you did this online? Gina: In the midst of it. I was ... Actually, I worked at the school, and my degree is in psychology, so I had started working on my Masters a little bit, but it wasn't in teaching. And you do not have to have a teaching degree to do this, but you do need to have a degree. But I did work at the school for about six ... A little over six years, and it just ... It wasn't a lot of money. The flexibility wasn't as great. Although I was off during the summer. But I decided to stay home when my youngest one was born, and I wasn't sure what I was going to do when she got school-aged, but I knew I wanted to go back to work but wasn't sure about finding a job that was flexible enough for me to take off if I needed to ... if my kids were sick or if there was doctor's appointments or that would also compensate me for my degree. So I kind of looked into stay-at-home jobs. A lot of them were data entry. A lot of them were this and that, and I stumbled upon this, and it was just like, "Wow." I mean, it was a life-changing decision for me. Jocelyn: Yeah, that's awesome. And what Gina didn't mention is that ... Of course, we live in a super small area, so even though you've gone to college, even though you have a degree, it's not always easy to find good jobs, and particularly ones that are flexible. And that's why a lot of people work at the school system, and I suspect that's why you worked for the school system as well. Gina: Absolutely, yes it was. It was so when the kids were off, I would be off. I would have my summers off and that kind of thing. But in this situation, when I found this job, it was ... I just make my own hours, and I'm actually ... I start around five o'clock in the morning. I could work all night if I wanted to, but I start around four or five. I end around 10 am, and I'm done for the day, and I get paid really well to do that, and I get to teach children and love what I do, and I get to do it at home in my pajamas, and I don't have to get out- Shane: Without ... You don't need a shower. Just get up. Do whatever you want. Make your coffee, right? Gina: You know what, it doesn't ... Yes. It doesn't matter if I've had a shower. Nobody knows. So it's great. It's great. Shane: What does something like this pay? Let's talk about the job first. So you said you get up in the morning, and you literally are working with these kids that are in China, I guess, teaching them English. So are you on a Skype call? Is it a group call with a bunch of kids? Is it one-on-one? What are you actually doing during these hours that you're working? Gina: Well, the company that I work for will ... They do the curriculum and they do everything, so there's no paperwork on my end or anything like that. So I am one-on-one with the students. So it's only one-on-one with this particular company. And I get up, and it's like you have a teacher's portal. So you log in to the teacher's portal. I am not that tech savvy, so it's okay. But I have learned a lot, and they will walk you through ... You know, with workshops and different things to help you, but you ... It's almost like you're FaceTiming someone, but it's the student on the other end, and they are in Beijing, and ... A lot of them are in Beijing, because it's the whole country of China, so there's different cities and areas, and I have 25 minutes that I teach one student, and one class is 25 minutes long. Gina: So you teach them that ... It's a slideshow, so it pulls up on the teacher's portal. All you do is log into your classroom. They have booked your class. You don't have to do anything other than just open the times that you want to teach and that you're available, and then the company is actually the one that talks to the parents, because they can speak Chinese. I do not speak Chinese. And they book the classes for you, and all you do is you have an app. You can check who's booked your classes. You log in at the time that you have chosen to open up, and the student's right there in front of you. Shane: That's amazing. So it's like having a business, but you don't have to go find your own leads. They just find them for you and they book your calendar, and there's so many kids over there doing this, you probably just always have a booked calendar, right? Gina: Oh, you do. In the very beginning, it's almost ... You get a couple here and there trickle in. And then once they start giving you good reviews, then you just get more, and then they can ... Now I have so many wanting to book me that I can't keep up with it, and I have to close slots. It's very ... And the kids. You build a connection with the families and with the kids, and then I also ... WeChat is what it's called over in China. They don't have Facebook. But you can talk back and forth with the parents, because a lot of them do speak English, and you just get to know. You have a good rapport with the family. And I have a family that actually wants to come visit over here. Jocelyn: Oh, that is so cool. Gina: So it is very ... They send you videos. They'll say, "Look what we did today," and I have built so many connections across the world just over this job. It's pretty unbelievable. Jocelyn: Yeah, that is awesome. And you do have a little bit of autonomy as far as the way that you present the material, right? Because I know I've seen some of your videos where you've worn princess crowns and different types of things. Shane: Just fun stuff. Gina: Yeah. You do. Because the girls and boys ... They like different things, and you are to give them a reward. That's their motivation. So as you're doing the lesson, you will say, "Great job," and you give them a star, and it's digital. And they also have a ton of digital Snapchat kind of things. You can make yourself have bunny ears, and just ... It's kind of something fun. It gets the kids laughing, relaxed, comfortable, then they learn better. And anyway, they do have rewards. I'll do princesses. I can put on ... You get a crown and I'll put it on myself. Or you get earrings, and they're kind of like, "Wow, beautiful." And it's just a great connection to have as they're learning English. And they pick up quick. Shane: Tell me about the hours, then. So you do it really in the morning, but you also have a huge family, so you've got ... I can't keep up with two kids. I don't know how you're doing ... I have to be honest, you just became one of my ... We have a Mount Rushmore of awesome parents, people that have seven or more kids. You are now on the Mount Rushmore of these parents. But- Gina: Well, thanks. Shane: Did you pick the early hours, or it's just really necessary to do that because of the time zone differences, or a little of both? Gina: No, it's a little of both, maybe, but ... You have ... It's a 12-hour time zone difference, so when it's 8 AM here, it's 8 PM there. Now in China, they do ... When they get home from school, they do lessons. They have English lessons. Almost every family. It's unbelievable. But there are over 60,000 teachers that teach for this company. So they have ... They'll come home, and they'll do a class, which is just 25 minutes. So you can open up spots anywhere from 7:30 PM at this time here all the way until 10 AM. So if you want to teach from 7:30 PM until 11 ... Which it doesn't work for me, because my kids, that's bed time. But you can do that, or you can get up early like I do and teach from four to 10, or you can teach from midnight to four. It's your choice, and I have no problem getting booked at any time during, because there's always even preschool ... Because the kids were age ranged from three years old ... Yes. Some of them speak better English than my four-year-old here, but ... Shane: That's what happens in Kentucky. I'm just saying. Gina: It is, I know. It's really bad. So ... But from three all the way to 16. So you do have kids that aren't in school yet that can take a 10 AM morning class in China, and it's 10 PM our time. So you create your own schedule on what works for you, and that's why it's so great. Shane: Wow. So if you're going to be out of town or something, you can just basically block off, "I'm not going to be ..." If you're going on vacation, you can just say, "Hey, guys, I'm not going to be able to do it this week," or you literally could just bring your computer if you wanted to and do it from anywhere. You just have to have your laptop with you. Gina: There are many teachers that work for this company that actually travel around the world and teach. There is a teacher that I know that lives in Switzerland, actually, and she doesn't really live there, but she is staying there right now, and she is traveling around, and she just has her laptop. All you need is your laptop. Shane: That's amazing. Gina: So you can go anywhere. Yes it is. Shane: See, that's what we see. We call it "the flipped lifestyle." There's a lot of funny stuff of how we got that name, but what we really mean is the world tells us "You have to have a 9-5. You've got to be sitting in your desk. You have to follow the rules. You've got to build this life exactly like we say it has to be," and we're like, "No, you could literally flip that upside down and live however you want. If you want to get up at 5 AM and work and make money online, you can do it. If you want to live in Switzerland and travel Europe, all you need is your laptop. If you want to be like us, we work from home or anywhere we travel. That's what we do. We just bring our laptop with us." That's what the flipped lifestyle is. That's why we're bringing this new series in, is we want people to realize that there is unlimited opportunity to make a living online. There's unlimited opportunity to build the exact schedule you want. Shane: Like this morning ... We stayed up really late last night. My brother was in town, and I think it was like 10:30 or 11 before we even laid down. So we slept in a little bit this morning. We got up, we did a member call with about 45, 50 people at nine o'clock. We stopped and went and hung out with the kids. I rode my exercise bike, and Jocelyn made a phone call. And then Jocelyn just took off her robe as she was sitting down for this podcast interview. I'm in sweatpants and a t-shirt and flip-flops right now, and we got on the call with you. And then the next thing will be ... The next thing that Jocelyn's going to homeschool co-op next. So then we'll come back, go to a basketball game, and then maybe I'll do a little work before bed tonight. It's just amazing the life you can build because we have this crazy tool like the internet that can connect us with an entire other country that doesn't even speak our language. It's amazing. Gina: It's so ... It is amazing, because I can be teaching a student, and it's dark there, and I can show them my window and say, "Look here," and they're like, "Oh my goodness." It's amazing, because the crickets are chirping in China, and I am teaching this. Or I can be in the evening at a basketball game, and I can open some classes at 10 PM, 10:30, and I'm like, "Well, I got to go because I got to teach a couple classes," and I can pull in 10 minutes before my class starts, get on my laptop and teach and make money for an hour or two. I just get to choose that. And we have talked many times in our family ... Eventually, if the kids get older, we would like to move to North Carolina where my family is. Well, a typical job that you would have ... "What am I going to do? I've got to apply somewhere? I've got to see if I can transfer." But you know what? I don't have to worry about that, because I could go anywhere, and- Shane: Your job comes with you. Gina: I don't have to ever leave. Shane: Right. Your job comes with you, basically. Gina: Yes. So I can go anywhere. I can go on vacation. When I go on vacation, I can close it out like you had asked. I make my schedule two weeks in advance. If I know something's coming up, I just don't open those slots, so they're not available to students to book. But if something happens, you can cancel. You can cancel things. They like you not to, but. But if you're going on vacation, you just don't open slots. So you get to control that. It's amazing. It really is. Shane: Yeah. What's amazing about hearing your story is it's so different than what we do. Because we have a lot ... I feel like we have a lot more moving parts, but it's also other stuff that we like to do. I like to go out and try to find new clients. I like to ... The lead-generation part is something that I really dig. That's my jam. That's what I like to do. But you were kind of like, "I don't want to own this whole business. I just want to be a part of something that I can control my schedule." And there's so much flexibility and freedom to just build whatever you decide. You don't have to do what me and Jocelyn do. You can do what Gina does. You don't have to do what Gina does. You can build it like another way. Jocelyn: Yeah, and I just ... I have loved watching all of the stuff that you post. It's very obvious to me that this is something that you just really, truly enjoy. Tell people about your set-up, where it's at, because I get a kick out of that too. Gina: I am in the laundry room. So I actually sit right by the washer and dryer, and I just have a little desk and my laptop, and a bunch of my kids toys' are different props. Which I've not spent any money on actually, but a whiteboard. And nobody sees what's around. Now I will say that there have been times that I have had the dryer going, and it goes ... My kids are like, "I hear something." I'm like, "It's the dryer." And they think it's so funny. Shane: That is hysterical. Gina: But yeah, I teach from the laundry room, and it's just ... I can go anywhere. Sometimes I can take my laptop and move it with my camera and show them Christmas decorations that we do with the Christmas tree, and they're like, "Whoa." Shane: Do you just shine them at a wall or something so it looks like you're ... [crosstalk 00:16:59]. Jocelyn: Well, she has decorations. Shane: Oh, like behind you. So you've got the ... So it's just like a set. It reminds me of ... You know what's his name, Bear Grylls, Man Vs. Wild? You ever seen that show where the guy- Gina: No. Shane: Okay, so there's this show called Bear Grylls: Man Vs. Wild. He goes out into the wilderness, and he's like, "Here's how you survive in the Arctic," and "Here's how you survive a volcano," and all this stuff. Jocelyn: He drinks urine and all this. Shane: Yeah, he drinks urine and eats spiders and all this crazy stuff. He looks like he's actually out in the wilderness, but I watched this expose on him one time, and there was this one where he looks like he's climbing a mountain, and they pan back, and he's laying flat, and they just turned the camera sideways so it would look like he's climbing the mountain. And there's a road right behind him. And you're like, "I'm teaching in my classroom, but I'm really doing laundry at the same time." Gina: Yeah, it is essentially kind of the same, because I have a board behind me, and it's got the ABCs and it's got some of my things. But honestly, three feet over is a pile of towels and a bunch of clothes. Shane: So how- Gina: Dirty clothes. Shane: So tell us again, how much can someone expect basically to make an hour during this? Now, this particular job, the company that you're working for does require a degree, some kind of college degree, right? Gina: Yes. You have to have some kind of college degree and at least two years' teaching experience. Now you don't have to be a teacher in the classroom. Two years' teaching experience could be homeschooling. It can be coaching if your ... It can be Vacation Bible School. It can be Sunday School classes. Shane: Just working with kids basically. Gina: Anything like that. Yes, some kind of teaching. That's what you need in order to get the job. However, what you make is ... Everybody's brought in around about the same amount give or take 50 cents or a dollar an hour, but you make about 20-25 dollars an hour, depending on the class you teach. So if a student books you within 24 hours, you've opened a slot, it's not been booked, and you only have 24 hours to prepare for that class ... Which you really don't have to prepare, honestly. But you only have 24-hour notice. You get an extra couple dollars on the hour. So if it's a class that is ... It just depends on which kind of class you teach on how much you're getting paid. So it's sometimes 22 an hour, sometimes it's 24, sometimes it's 20. It fluctuates depending on what you were hired in at. Shane: But it's over 20. That's insane. Gina: Oh, absolutely. Yes. Shane: Jobs in our area ... And I know in a lot of areas, you can't just go out and get a 20-dollar-an-hour job. That just doesn't happen. And to be able to do it online, to do it from home, control your schedule, and ... I mean, if you just got ... If you only work 20 hours a week, that's like four or five hundred dollars a week in extra money for your family. $2,000 a month. You said something like ... You said homeschool. I was just imaging the millions of homeschoolers that are out there that are looking for ways to make money. What an amazing experience to teach kids English in China, and your kids might even get to talk to them and meet someone from abroad and understand that the world is a bigger place. Gina: Oh, absolutely. Yes. You can do that, and I mean, yes. And with teaching ... There are lots of teachers that homeschool, actually. There's a Facebook group with this company where you can support one another, talk about different things, and there's homeschooling teachers, and there's teachers that travel, and there's teachers that ... with this company, and so it's such a neat experience to be able to control it all and do what you want to do and like I said, not have to get dressed. You don't have to worry about gas money, clothes money, lunch money. You're right there. It's ... You can ... Shane: That's something that we often talk about with each other, the hidden benefits of working for yourself, and especially if you can work from home. Because you don't realize how much of your life gets poured into traveling from point A to B, or how much gas money you actually spend until you don't have to spend gas money anymore, and you don't realize even the time just to get ready every day, just to prepare your food, just to leave work to go to lunch or ... Man, you get two, three hours of your life back every single day just from working from home that you can then pay forward to your kids, pay forward to your spouse, or even invest back into yourself. Jocelyn: Yeah, and I know that you do a lot of volunteering at school and you're very involved in your kids' lives outside of at home, which is really cool. Gina: Yes, and I don't know that I would be able to do that if I was doing a nine to five desk job. I'm absolutely positive, I wouldn't be able to do as much. I don't feel- Shane: Let me ask you this. Gina: Go ahead. Shane: Could you ever go back to a nine to five job now? Gina: No. No. I wouldn't. Shane: Emphatically no, right? Gina: I absolutely wouldn't. Nope. And I've had people ask me, and I actually even tried at one point to maybe try to do another job and then this. But of course, I was hired because I was getting up extra early, but it was just draining. It was getting up, getting ... I don't know, I've been spoiled, okay? And I make good money doing this, and it's just great. And my husband will sometimes say, "Oh, I need to get a sick day, or do this," and I'm thinking, "Sorry," because I don't have to ask anyone for a sick day. I hate that. I don't have to ask permission for anything, because I'm my own boss. So if I'm not feeling well, then I don't open classes. It's just that easy. Shane: This is an interesting take, too, because a lot of people are learning that those college degrees they may have gotten ... Some people are going to have a college degree in history, but not a teacher. They can't be a schoolteacher. Or somebody might have a degree in business, like a general business degree. Jocelyn: Like me. Shane: Like- Gina: Or psychology. Shane: Or psychology. There you go. And they're having trouble finding a job. But now you have something that any college degree could apply for and you could go to and you could do. Gina: Yes. I actually ... They do provide workshops, and they're all free. So once you're hired, you can take different things to get certified in different levels, and it's just free education that they help you attain while you're teaching. So I kind of feel like ... I know many teachers now, and actually one in particular, that is retiring soon, and she cannot wait, because she loves to teach, but she feels like that you can't teach as much now in the classroom as you could because of the testing and the paperwork and the discipline that you have and the classroom to deal with, where she does this on the side, and she said, "I cannot wait to retire, because I get to do this all of the time, and make extra income, and I get to be home, and I get to do what I love because it's ..." We don't do curriculum and paperwork and such like that. We do our own thing. You get to do what you love. It's just- Shane: And you get to work one-on-one with students. That's what's amazing to me. Because that's the joy I got as a ... When I was a teacher and a football coach, that was where the joy came from, where it's the one-on-one interactions with the kids, and when you're really just throwing stuff at the group, it's not as fun, because the kid's sleeping in the back, got to fill out the papers ... But it's amazing you can just have these one-on-one interactions with these kids, get to know them, and what a difference. If you teach 20 kids a week, you're teaching 20 kids to speak a second language. Who knows what doors that's going to open up for not only them but the world just interacting back and forth. Gina: Oh, it is. And it's very interesting, because they are very disciplined and diligent about their education over there. So they are ... They ask you questions. The parents ... And feedback ... will ask you things like, "Little Johnny is throwing tantrums," and they like to spank, and they're very hard on them. Gina: So it's just like, "What do you suggest to help?" And sometimes I'm like, "Winston, he's only three. It's okay. He's doing well." But ... Shane: They're so competitive there, they're probably freaking out. And ... Gina: They are. They are. Shane: It's amazing to me, too. A lot of people ask us, "How ... ?" Some people actually want to go down the "entrepreneur" route, the "business ..." "I want my own business, I want everything else," but when they're starting out, they're not making enough extra money to pay for things like website hosting or to pay for advertising, or ... They always say, "I just don't have enough money," and we're like, "There's a lot of other things you can do online to make money. What if you taught five classes a week, made 100 extra dollars a week, 400 extra dollars a month to invest in the other thing that you want to build? There's just no excuse. Jocelyn: Yeah, that's a ... It's a great side-hustle, as people say, just start it up, work as many hours as you can, maybe it would give you the opportunity to quit your nine to five job. Gina: It could, because I tell you, that happens a lot. What I've seen is ... You will think, "Oh ..." Because when I started, I thought, "I'd just like to make an extra 500 a month." And that was my goal. Well now, I can pull in almost 2,000 a month, and it's just working part time. So it's money that's been able to give me to do things with the family and vacations that I would not have been able to do before and I would have had to have worked full-time at a desk job to make what I'm making now and still have the flexibility. Shane: So let me ask you this. So what are ... ? So for someone who is thinking to themselves, "Look, I want to make money online. I want to work from home. I know that we can change our family's future and all this opportunity is in front of me," and they say, "I do want a business, maybe. Maybe I don't want to grow a business. Maybe ... I don't know exactly what I want yet, but this sounds amazing." So what are three to five tips to get started in this? Just how to succeed in it, just preparing your degree, you just fill out an application, do you just ... What are your tips for success for someone who's going into this? How can they stay organized? How can they set it up? What kind of computer do they ... ? Whatever. Just what do they need? Gina: Right. You really all too begin with you need is like a headset, which ... I just got a $25 headset at Walmart. But a headset, a whiteboard just from the dollar store and a computer. I had a hard ... I didn't have a laptop when I first started. The computer was as large as my washer, almost. It was just awful. It was ... You can have that. You would fill out online the application. It's just a basic information and YouTube videos is what I went through. There were YouTube videos of some teachers that worked there, and they, as part of their ... another business that they do, and you ... They kind of walk you through the lessons that they teach, so you can get an idea of what you would be doing, what they look for. Gina: It kind of walks you through the introductory lessons, like showing flashcards and rewards, so you can feel comfortable even before you would do an interview. Because the interviews are live, so when you first fill out an application, they will send you an email. They would say, "You want to do a little live interview." It's like five, 10 minutes, and it's over the internet, like FaceTime, like a class would be. And they send you the link and you can schedule the time, and you can do a little interview telling them about yourself, and then you'd move on to teaching a lesson, and they send you those materials and you can ... I would say watching YouTube, talking to other teachers, joining the Facebook group for this company and feeling around with other people's experiences. Shane: So do they ... So you actually do do an ... How ... You do do an interview with the company, and then you move on to actually teaching. Gina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Shane: So if someone started today, how long would it take them, basically, to teach their first class, theoretically? Gina: Theoretically. It takes them as long as they would like it to take them, honestly. Some of them go really fast through it. Some of them, I think, have a lot of anxiety on teaching a lesson, and so they book their time. I know a couple who have ... I was hired pretty quick, but some will say, "Okay, I don't want to schedule. I'm not ready for two or three weeks." Some it's been months, and they're still not hired, because they keep canceling their- Shane: But in theory, if they ... Yeah, if they wanted to, they could say, I can apply, I can do my interview, go teach my first course within a couple weeks, basically. Gina: I would give yourself maybe about a month for all of it, just because once you first ... Even if you're hired within a week or a week and a half, with setting up everything, then you want to open your slides, and sometimes it takes a couple weeks or a week or two to get bookings, because you got to do your profile, you have to do a little video of yourself, like "Hey, I'm Teacher Gina," and tell them about where you're from. So to just create all of that and get booked, I would say max about a month. Shane: Yeah. There's always a barrier to entry. If you want this job, if you want to make money, if you want anything good to happen in your life, there's a barrier of entry, because if it was easy, everybody would do it. Gina: Well, right. Shane: You've got eight kids. You've got a family. You had to go through the process, and if you could do it, I would say anybody with less than eight kids ... So that's what- Gina: Absolutely. And I did my interview at 1 AM when I knew no one would bother me, and I scheduled it at that time, and yes, it is ... The first month, I made $10. So I thought ... Everybody starts out somewhere. But it was $10 I didn't have, and then the next month, it was like 500, and then the next month, it was 1700, and then it was ... So it kept increasing to where now, whatever I open gets booked automatically, and it's a fun job. It's amazing that- Shane: Do you have a waiting list or something? You said you're just over ... You can book any slot you wanted. Can the teachers refer to each other? If you have a friend, can you be like, "Oh, I don't have any slots, but my friend Jill does," or whatever. Or like ... Gina: Unfortunately, no. I would love that, though. We have talked about that before. It would be great. If there are different parents and families that have different ... that like different teaching styles, so that's where this company is the liaison between the teachers and the parents. They will ... There are people called LPs which are called Learning Partners, and they speak Chinese and English, and they will facilitate back and forth, "This teacher is really animated," and then "This teacher's more of a low key," because you don't have to be a certain personality. Everybody has different likes. Gina: So they kind of book ... You can't refer another teacher because there's no communication, really, between when they book. Now, there are called priority bookings, and the priority bookings are where the parents can say, "She doesn't have this slot open, but I really would love for my child to be taught at five," and they can send it to you, and you can say yes or no. You can say, "No, I'm sorry. I just don't want to get up that early." You can say whatever you want. Shane: What's crazy is there's a billion people in China. You know what I'm saying? There's no shortage of students. That's like 20, 30 thousand people per teacher that's doing it now. What'd you say, 60,000 people or something like that? Gina: There's over 60,000 teachers right now, yeah. Shane: And even that's not close to enough to serve a billion people. So you couldn't book everybody's schedule, even if you wanted to. It's just a matter of- Gina: You couldn't. Shane: ... system, you know? Gina: No, you couldn't. And there's just ... There's so ... The kids ... They're actually expanding now to 300 more countries, so it's an expanding business that's going to be other countries. It's not just going to be China. So it's just ... They're constantly ... They push, push, push to refer friends, or if you know anybody that has ... that's interested because the interview process can be a little grueling, but it's cake once you get hired. Shane: Yeah. It's just getting over the obstacle, and once you get past the speed bump, it's smooth sailing from there. Gina: Absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes it is. That's what I tell people. It's just so worth it. It really is. I ... My husband will say, "Are you teaching again?" And I'm like, "I think it's almost addicting," and I've never had a job where I feel like- Shane: Well, they send you money for sitting in your laundry room. Gina: Yeah. Shane: Pretty awesome. Gina: I know. Shane: Let's be realistic Gina: I'm like, "Sorry, going to the laundry room." Shane: That's what we tell everybody about online business, is it's hard in the beginning. There is a barrier to entry to all of these things, like different ways to make money online. But gosh, the reward is something that didn't even exist for humanity 20 years ago. That's what people don't get is like this is the first time in human history a life like this was possible, and it's crazy to just waste away in the way we've done it for the first 10,000 years when you could do it the way you can do it now. Jocelyn: For sure. And we ... I mean, we definitely want people to be able to get more information from you, so what we're going to do is we are going to set up a page- Shane: Yup. It's at flippedlifestyle.com/teachingenglish, and that's all one word. So T-E-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-N-G-L-I-S-H. Flippedlifestyle.com/teachingenglish, and if you are someone who is stuck right now and you don't know what you want to do next- Jocelyn: Yeah, if this sounds appealing to you- Shane: If you're looking at making a little money to support the bigger business that you're building, maybe to get some ad revenue going, pay for hosting- Jocelyn: Or maybe you just don't want to be business owner. Like it's just not something that really appeals to you, but the idea of making some extra money is something that really appeals to you. Shane: Then go to flippedlifestyle.com/teachingenglish, and we will have more information there, and we will connect you directly to Gina. So she's the expert. She knows about this field. We're so thankful, Gina, that you came on the show and were so transparent and just giving your time away to us to tell people about this opportunity. So we will connect you with Gina, and she will guide you and tell you how you maybe can get online, teach a few classes today, and make 20, 25 bucks an hour that you can use however you ... So again, that's flippedlifestyle.com/teachingenglish. And you can get all that information. Jocelyn: All right. We are going to wrap this up for today. Gina, thank you so much for your time, and sharing your experience. Gina: Thank you. Jocelyn: It's been awesome to talk to you, and I can't wait to hear about your next adventures with your students. Gina: Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. Shane: All right, guys. That wraps up another episode of The Flipped Lifestyle Podcast. What an amazing opportunity and story that we heard today from Gina, being able to work in your laundry room and talk to kids on the other side of ... literally, on the other side of the planet, exactly 12 time zones away, and make money online. Make money anywhere in the world, be able to make more time for your kids and your family. There's so many opportunities to make money online and work from home right now. It's crazy not to explore all of your options. We cover a lot of options, how to make money online and work from home inside of the Flip Your Life community. We would love to have you in our community so you can explore all the different opportunities and options and find your path to change your family's future. Shane: To learn more about the Flip Your Life community, go to flippedlifestyle.com/flipyourlife, all one word. That's F-L-I-P-P-E-Dlifestyle.com/flipyourlife. And you can learn about all of the courses, coaching, and community options that we have available for you. Our mission is to help you start an online business, make money online, work from home, and flip your family's life just like we did. We can't wait to see you inside. That's all the time we have for this week. Until next time, get out there. Do whatever it takes. Live your life. Jocelyn: Bye. Links and resources mentioned on today's show: Click here for more information on how to teach English online Flip Your Life Community Enjoy the podcast; we hope it inspires you to explore what's possible for your family! Join the Flip Your Life Community NOW for as little as $19 per month! https://flippedlifestyle.com/flipyourlife

Death educators Gina Colombatto and Meredith Hays, facilitators of the workshop series The Ultimate Shavasana: Where Examining Death Makes Life a Little Bit Easier, speak about the importance of embracing our mortality.Transcript:Ojig: This is Method to the Madness, a biweekly public Affair show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host Ojig Yeretsian. Today I'm speaking with Gina Colombatto and Meredith Hayes, death educators who recently led workshops entitled The Ultimate Shavasana where examining death makes life a little bit easier. Ojig:Welcome to the show Gina and Meredith and thanks for joining us. Gina: Great to be here! Ojig: Tell us what you do and the problem you're trying to solve.Gina: The problem we're trying to solve is that everyone is going to die and no one wants to talk about it. But it's something that we all have in common and it happens all the time. We all have loved ones who die and as a death educator I want to continue to bring creativity and levity into the subject of death and dying so that it becomes something that is SO normal instead of fear-based, it would be much more a celebration of whoever has died. So we do death education.Meredith: What I do is I work as a death Doula or an end-of-life Doula. And my hope is that we can fill the gap between over the nurses who were working so hard and the caregivers who are coming from their homes and they're exhausted. And both sides of the medical professional and the personal they need help, and so doulas can step in. We are not medical; we offer practical, emotional and spiritual support and we can be there when the caregiver needs a break or if the nurses are too busy and can't answer a call right away. We’re hoping to make it more of a normal, comfortable situation for everyone.Ojig: And as a death Doula, can you describe things you would do?Gina: Yeah, well first the word Doula comes from the Greek and it means to serve or a female servant or female slave and while I don't love that there is some truth to it. We serve, that's what we do and we don't have to be female, the majority of us are. Like I said before it's non-medical and we can do pretty much anything. Our job is to serve the family of the dying person and the dying person themselves and to a larger degree the community. And we do that however we can, whether it's running errands for someone, whether it's holding a ceremony of some sort, or calling in a spiritual counselor, whatever it is. Ojig: It sounds like it's really important. I'd like to follow up about the fear of death that Gina mentioned. There seems to be a taboo around acknowledging dying and there is silence around planning for death. Why is it so hard for us to talk about this?Gina: I think it moved from being very home based during the Civil War when we had soldiers going across country and they would die somewhere else and we needed them to get home. We wanted their bodies home. Before that, someone would die in the neighborhood and you would bring them to the parlour, which we now called the living room, oddly enough. And you would gather and you would lay out your dying or your dead and everyone in the neighborhood would come and women would wash the body and there would be preparation of the coffin by the men. It was very divided. But it was also very familial and community based. You knew who was dying and you knew when they were dying and you knew how they died and it was all very open. Whereas for us, we've turned death into dirtiness and it's like you don't touch a dead bird, it's going to be toxic, or you don't get near a dead body, it’s is going to smell. We’ve really created that from the Civil War because these bodies were far away and we needed to get them home so we started the embalming process. The embalming made it easier to get a body across country, but what happened at that time, though, is we started looking at there are only certain people who know how to take care of bodies and those are the the embalmers. We shifted at that point that only people who knew how to embalm would take care of the bodies. And we are bringing back home funerals because we want to remind ourselves that death isn't scary, it's perfectly normal, it's not dirty. Yes there can be blood, just like in birth there is the birth doulas, in death, there is the death doula. It’s the end of life. It's messy. Life is messy. But it's also so amazing and brilliant and then we can all share it so when someone dies you don't have to say, ‘quick! get someone to take away the smelly body.’ A body can be in your home for three days. It can be even longer if you're just putting it on ice and everyone can come and say their goodbyes and reminisce about that person.Meredith: I think we’ve made death seem like an emergency and it really isn't. When a person dies, there's nothing to do. The status isn't going to change. The first thing that I think people should do when someone dies is take a breath and just sit and be and don't rush and don't pick up the phone and don't call out for the nurse. You don't need to do that. It's not an emergency. Gina: And people do find things that are important to them at that time. And it may be something as simple as singing to the dead or reading a poem or telling stories about that person. And that person’s not going anywhere. They're not rotting away. They're just a body that's lying there and you can enjoy all the memories of who they are, right there. They’re right there with you.Ojig: Your perspective is that this is just a natural part of the process of living. It’s just the end stage. Meredith: Exactly. Yeah, and we need to also, part of the education is letting our kids know about this and to open up the conversation for not just adults, but for the younger ones as well because we hide away our old people and unless you have the fortune of living with your grandmother or something, kids don't really talk to old people that much. And there's so much wisdom and so much beauty there. We need to work on that. We really, really do!Ojig: Religion and medicine are the usual realms that death is discussed. However, in Mexico, loved ones who died are acknowledged and celebrated. Is our fear of death a western or American phenomenon?Gina: It's hard to say American because we’re made up of everything right, but that's a little tricky but it's yes, it’s definitely more western culture. At the same time there is Mexico in the western culture, so it's very different group to group and how we've been raised. I like that you mentioned Dia de Los Muertos. Coco, the film that came out last year that just covered everything in a playful way. It was very joyous. It was very easy for everyone to watch. There's a little bit of the Disney piece in there that you just go ‘really?’, but it opened that door as culturally some religions do talk about it, you may also have someone that understands it from their religious perspective, but they still have terror.Ojig: And what is thanatology? Gina: Thanatology is the study of death. We got into the study of death. That's where we met.Meredith: Yes, we met at the open center in New York City four years ago. We did a 9-month study in a course called The Art of Dying and I think that's how I describe thanatology because it covers so much and we talked about every aspect-- the physical aspects of dying, spiritual, emotional, historical, you name it, we covered it.Gina: Part of what the thanatology brought to us was that there are so many ways to look at death. And you had mentioned medicine and religion. And in medicine we study how to not die, and that becomes a real problem because doctors aren’t trained, raised, experienced in saying, ‘Oh, this person is going to die. How great!’ That's not a reality in a hospital. They’ve been trained to save us. That’s how we’ve given them that job. You need to save us. And you'll find some people who really, and we learned this in school from the palliative care doctor, there are some people who want to stay alive, to stay alive. What are you going to do by being alive? I want to have more chemo. What are you going to do with more chemo? Stay alive. Is that really living or is that just surviving or what exactly is that? And doctors are supposed to offer everything they can and as a culture again we don't say oh you know what that maybe pretty miserable do you want to go that route because otherwise maybe hospice and doula and end-of-life practitioners that know how to offer what can you do in this body that you can still do while you're here.Meredith: Right. There's still definitely a way to live while you die and that gets overlooked and what matters to someone at the end of life may not matter to someone else. We've heard stories of people who all they want to be able to do is be with their kids and eat chocolate ice cream and that's, to them, that's living, and if they can't do that, then they're done. And those are the questions that doctors are now starting to ask. You know, what is it that makes you want to wake up in the morning? We hope to see more and more of that but doctors aren't taught that in their schools and we do see it changing now which is awesome.Ojig: That’'s great.That gives us hope. And what is the standard practice in the field of thanatology? Is it bereavement counseling?Gina: As a culture, we are very grief-based. Grief actually comes from a French word that is to burden and I think that we all sign up for the burden. By looking at death as grief, as loss, instead of as the joy of that person was with you for as long as they were, what a different experience we’d be having. Bereavement is one, that yes, it's very important to be able to sit with someone and, and this is one of the parts of an end-of-life doula, is being able to sit with the family in anticipatory grief in that place where the person is not all the way gone, but they may be gone in their minds but their body is still there, so that pain is, is pretty intense because you love someone that's really not the way that you want them to be. And so, those places of bereavement, to be able to sit it that and be able to say that’s painful, it really is, tell me more, who were they, because they lived, and we tend to focus on, they’re gone. Ojig: What have you found to be with a common need with patients that you’ve helped?Meredith: Well, every person is different and every death is different. I try really hard. We were taught this too, you walk into a situation and let everything go. No expectations, your own baggage, you gotta deal with that first, or else it’s trouble. Walking into a situation, it can be anything and you have to be okay with that. People grieve differently. They can be freaking out and screaming and yelling. There could be tears or there could be silence. And as a doula, you accept that, and you just embrace it and let the people do whatever they have to. As for the dying person, again, it could be anything. I've seen a lot of sadness. I would call it sadness. I've seen fear and hope, a lot of hope. Also humor. Some very funny things happen at the end of life and I have some of my best memories, gosh, from people who were dying. That's a hard question to answer because it's all over the map. I think you get every single emotion. Ojig: if you're just tuning in, you’re listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today’s guests are Gina Colombotto and Meredith Hayes. They're speaking about their recent workshop series entitled, The Ultimate Shavasana, where examining death makes life a little bit easier.Ojig: I wanted to now ask about your workshop. So the flyer reads: The Ultimate Shavasana-- where examining death makes life a little bit easier. Lose your fear of dying, get wrapped in a lively conversation, and then in a beautiful shroud or coffin. How are you innovating in this field of death education and tell us about your workshops. Gina: When we started, I was like, this is what I want to do. It’s a dream of getting people to get really close to their fears and really what their fears are is about the love of their bodies, or their love of someone that has left or their love of someone that they don't want to die. So it’s really all about love which sounds so corny, but it’s so true. To me, it’s like OK, how can we remind people that you’re invited to come look at why it’s so fearful and then touch upon how can we make it less fearful. I like to add art into it. I like to add creativity into it so it’s not all dark and black and dungeon-like.Meredith: I call it part death cafe, part meditation, part party, because there is a celebration aspect to it. There is a point where you're invited to climb into a coffin or get wrapped in a shroud and do a short meditation. People have come out of that, transformed seems like a large word, but I would say transformed, and there's this look of relief and happiness. That's not to say it’s super scary beforehand. It is for some people, but not for everyone. it's a safe place. It's very calm, but happy. Gina: We’re planning on taking this all around-- to continue to invite people to look more closely and laugh more closely with and around death and dying. We have been in Maine and New York and Berkeley. But it is a serious, it's a serious step. It's 2 hours.Meredith: Yeah it's pretty powerful. And back to where we hope to have these workshops, we’re reaching out now to hospice groups, and hope to be part of their training and offer the workshop to the volunteers so the volunteers can get sort of up close and personal and take the experience when they go volunteer with hospice patients.Gina: For anyone who doesn’t do yoga, shavasana is the corpse pose that is for the ultimate letting go at the end of oftentimes yoga classes. It has a long long history of being that hardest thing to experience. Ojig: You sound like you're both these containers for holding it all together for folks to take this risky step and check out their fears and demystify a little bit and think critically about what they’re wrapped up in. Who attends your workshop? Is there a cultural group or social group that’s more open to talk about our mortality?Gina: I’ve been doing death cafe’s probably for 4 or 5 years and I've had so many people come through and usually I would expect it would be all elders, but actually there's quite a few of the 20-somethings, 18-35 somethings. It's a huge age range and people have different reasons they're there. Someone might come because they have cancer and they're in their eighties and they are kind of thinking, I have everything in order, but you know I'm here to learn anything else and you think, how great, they’ve shown up, and then someone else will arrive and they're 18 and their best friend just did an opioid overdose and it's a hard thing because nobody wants to talk about it. With suicide, I will always turn it around and say, instead of the person, you know they took their life, I will always say, they gave their life, because if you just look at it from that angle, they were here as long as they could stay, so maybe they were here for 18 years, like they gave their life for 18 years. What were they like? Tell me about them. We forget that piece because we focus on the end, that last hour, and that’s how we define the person forever after.Ojig: You’re shifting the focus from the loss to the gifts, to what was given. So important.Meredith: I just want to say, some people show up to these events, not knowing why they are showing up. There’s a lot of that. When we ask, ‘What brought you here?’ Oh, I don’t know. I’ve just always been interested in death.’ And in this circle of people, we have people nodding, ‘oh, I know what you mean, I know what you mean.’ When I say it now, it sounds a little weird, but it makes all the sense in the world. And people are exploring. They want a place to be able to talk about this.Ojig: Yeah, because it’s not something you grow up with. You’re not learning it at school or in your family. If there’s taboos around it or it’s unsafe to ask anyone.Gina: I think what the humor is is that we all are going there and when you start talking about it people will say the most amazing things. You know, we had a woman say ‘what is the worst thing that could happen to your body’ and she said, ‘I know this is odd, but I’d actually have my legs cut off and I think it's that wouldn't be so bad because I would become the best swimmer.’ Now we're just sitting there looking, going HUH, okay well, that's good, but she thought about it and she hasn't told anyone anything like that and yet that's her getting closer to letting go of her body. Like how can I let go? What would be comfortable? What would that be like?Meredith: And then there was a woman who wanted her body to be eaten by alligators and she was dead serious. And when we said, how would you like to go, she didn’t miss a beat. She said, I’d like to be pulled apart by alligators.Gina: And, don’t tell my mother until after it’s done. And for us, it’s amazing how hard it is for people to sign up for these workshops. People are so fearful that it’s ‘please, don’t talk to me about it. No, I can’t show up. If we talk about it, we’re going to die’. Yeah, that’s true, but maybe not tomorrow.Ojig: When you educate about dying and death, do you also share information about what options folks have for what to do with their bodies? Gina: Yes, we have lots of what to do. And different states have different things that they can do with bodies. So first of all there are dead bodies everywhere and we don't know that. You know, in the hospitals, there’s tons of dead bodies. They're just not parading them through for you but that's where people go to die so we forget that and we think oh my god really there's dead bodies. It’s like yeah, and that's normal, and that's okay, and those people were loved, they're all fine. And then some of the green burial options, we like to think of cremation as a very green way to go but actually it’s incredibly toxic. The mercury and the toxicity that goes into the air even with all the filters is pretty extreme. In Maine, which is where I'm living now, has alkaline hydrolysis, which is water cremation. It’s also called aqua-cremation and bio-cremation where you put the bodies into basically a big canister and it’s all stainless steel. The body is on a rack. It fills with water. They put in potassium, I believe, to break down the PH level and then every part of the body except for the bone just disintegrates. And it goes into the water system as no DNA, there’s no DNA in the water. It's all just liquid and it's perfectly fine to go into the water system. People say YUCK, it’s going into the water system, forgetting that when a person is embalmed, everything that’s taken out of that body goes straight into the water system.Ojig: This is fascinating. We are SO not informed.Meredith: True. A lot of people are turning to green burials and choosing to be wrapped in just shrouds or bamboo caskets or cardboard caskets and and just being put into the ground. Also there's a lot of movement for making your own casket and I don’t know if you’ve seen these caskets that are made to place into furniture, like a bookcase that you can use until you're ready for it to use it as a casket, so you can get to know it--and like live with it for a while. Until you die with it. Yeah, so I’m sure there’s going to be more creative things coming up.Gina: It’s exciting. There are different ways that we're looking and people are trying and planting bodies and what people have an illusion about is that when someone is burned in cremation and you have ashes, they said we're going to plant a tree in these ashes, well, that's not really good for the tree. They won't grow in ashes. There’s not a whole lot of good stuff for the tree in ashes. But you can put them around a tree.Ojig: How did you find your way into this field?Meredith: I was one of those kids who always liked to talk about death. It was a pretty open conversation in my family. We always talked about how we wanted to die and where we wanted to be buried or cremated and it was like a conversation around the kitchen table, so there was that. But then my dad died about six years ago and he and I didn't know much about the industry and he was in hospice his last 4 days. It actually was awful. I think in retrospect I think part of the awfulness was because I wasn't informed and everything came as a shock to me. Also I think we did not have a cracker jack staff at the time at the hospice. But it was painful for my entire family and my dad was someone who was in service of other people his whole life and for him to struggle and suffer this way, it just seemed completely wrong and extremely difficult to get through. And on the third day...he was there four days... on the third day I just, I had lost it, and I thought, why is this happening to this man who is like the greatest, kindest man. It was like a slap on the side of my head. I thought, oh my God, he's doing this for me. He was like YO, wake up daughter, and see what what I'm doing for you because this is what we need. We need people to figure this out and to make it so that no one else has this experience. Once that I had that thought, I thought, okay, let's do it then. It was his definitely, his last gift to me. I went away from there thinking, I got to do something. And it took a couple years to figure it out, Googling end-of-life opportunities, death jobs, you know, and then I made my way to the Open Center and that's where it all started. Yeah, so it was very personal and it wasn't until I worked through all this baggage with my dad that I was able to be ready to help other people because I think that's super important. You have to do the work. It's hard and it takes a long time, but you can't go on to serve others until you've got that figured out. Ojig: And how about you Gina? How did you find your way into this field?Gina: I have a lot of people who've died and who I loved dearly and they've all had different deaths. I happen to have a larger amount of people who have given their own lives or taken their own lives. Even when I was younger and people would be very critical of that, I just had a different feel towards it and I thought well, it’s a another way to leave. And I know that just riles people. And at the same time, I think that we emphasize mental illness. And, yes, I think that that can play a part in it and I also think that there are some people who there just done, they’ve had a good life, they lived their lives and they're done. It's easier for us to accept that when they're 85 years old than if they're a 25 year old and who’s to know. We just don’t know. So I think it's always been this intrigue that I haven’t looked at death as the worst thing ever but more a real curiosity and how we all get there is so fascinating. Ojig: The poet Mary Oliver wrote “And When Death Comes”:When it's over I don't want to find myself sighing and frightened or full of argument. I don't want to end up simply having visited this world. What does it mean to die well and what does a good death look like to you? Meredith: Personally a good death for me would be I would like to be aware. I hope not to be in pain. I think that’s a pretty universal thought for people. But really, I want to know what's going on and I would like to be able to relay what's going on to those around me, especially my family and my son. If things go according to you know the laws of nature I will go before him, and I won't be there with him when he dies, and so I would like to give him the gift of explaining what I'm experiencing. So that maybe he'll experience the same thing or maybe he won't be scared when something comes up. And I think if he can then pass that on, then I guess a good death to me would be to leave that legacy.Gina: I don't know if there is such a thing as a good death. And a good death, I think, as with everything, it’s individual, because if I weren't aware and I have been around people who are leaving with dementia and people say, oh I would just hate to have dementia, but you don't know and the person who has dementia seems, we don't know, but seems to be perfectly fine and it's almost a gift to those around. It may look like a very uncomfortable death but maybe that's the gifting like your papa gave you. That there's a gift there. I would love to say that I go with grace... who knows. And I ask in death cafes over and over and over what’s a good death and it's so individual. I mean a good death for one person is I'm all alone, I'm on a mountain, and I have a heart attack, and someone else's is I have my whole family around me and I've had cancer for 6 months so I can say goodbye to everyone and it's loud and the kids have pans and they're dancing around and you’re thinking, oh, well those are both good deaths.Ojig: Young people, children, are not very prepared for talking about the last days. And most deaths happen out of sight in hospitals. How do you help youngsters navigate? What can we do to educate the next generation?Meredith: I don't agree with the fact that they're not ready to talk about it. I think in fact they are more ready than anyone else. It's just that people don't know how to bring it up with them, how to educate them. I think we just need to start the conversations. There's a way to get some sort of education in schools and I I don't know what that is yet. I think if they can talk about sex ed why can't they talk about death ed? There’s no difference. At my house, my boy has a death plan for his pet snails. We know that he wants them cremated and and he wants to bury them then. And we talked about that and he knows what I want and it's a normal conversation for us. We went to the dentist and the fish in the fish tank died and the nurse ran over saying, ‘don't look, don't look, don't look’ and he said, he stepped right in front of her and said, don't worry, my mama knows everything about death and the nurse was like what are you talking about? That fish shouldn't be whisked away without any explanation. I think it just has to be normalized and I hope that there will be some programs. I hope to work on that in my communities.Gina: And I want to add to that that we do talk to children about death. We just talk in the same mode of fear. Because we are taking kindergarteners to active shooter drills in their school. So you have five and six year olds who are learning how to not die because it's gonna be really terrifying and this is what we need to do to avoid that at all costs and that's what they hear about death. And then they hear that someone famous died and the flag is at half mast but we don't really talk about that, it's just you know you're supposed to be quiet and honor it, but not really talk about it and so I think as Meredith says, it’s so important to have the conversation.Ojig: If people want to learn more about your innovative work and get more information about your workshops, how can people contact you?Gina: I actually make contact on Instagram with just the Fine Art of Living and Dying. If you look up The Ultimate Shavasana we will be taking that around and so that will pop up. Another way to reach us would be through email: andthenwhathappens@gmail.com because we really don't know.Ojig: We tend to think of death as a separate thing and not connected at all to the living process and that's where we need to shift our thinking and expand life to include the ending chapter. Similar to other transition points in life where we get help and guidance like with the birth process, college counseling, athletic coaching, career building, wedding or marriage counseling... end of life is just another phase for which we can also get support. And I want to thank you Gina and Meredith for sharing about your process and the important work that you do to bring death and dying into the discussion about how we live.Meredith:Thank you! Gina: Thank you very much!Ojig: You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcast on iTunes University. See you again in two weeks. 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How did cyberpunks and activists affect the tech industry? Do we understand the history of the internet? How much of what we know comes only from a man’s perspective? This week, Claire L. Evans tells us about her new book, Broad Band, and the women who created the internet. Photo by Jaclyn Campanaro There Were Women In The Room: This week Paul Ford and Gina Trapani sit down with Claire L. Evans to chat about her new book, Broad Band: The Untold Story of the Women Who Made the Internet. We discuss the impact of online communities, how weird the dot-com era was, and the stories of the women who made things work. We also get a window into Y△CHT’s future project — the Broad Band Musical! 2:29 — Claire: “[This book is] a corrective if you will, of all the books we’ve all read and love about Silicon Valley, and the garage-to-riches stories of entrepreneurship… These are the stories about the women who were in the room the whole time, and nobody asked about them.” 5:06 — Paul: “Women get forgotten from activist histories too, and it was kind of an activist scene in the early days.”  5:22 — Gina: “Weird was welcome, in a way that is no longer the case.” 7:03 — Claire: “My big takeaway is how little we value long-term care and maintenance when it comes to building things… I profile Stacy Horn, who founded Echo BBS in the late 90s. It still exists. And she has devoted 25 years of her life to fostering and caring for this community. … She’s taking care of something, because she’s responsible for a community, and I think that’s really beautiful.” 8:24— Claire: “We mythologize the box, but it’s the users that change the world; it’s what you do with it. The culture work, the development of making things worth linking is almost as important as making the conventions for linking.  8:24 — Gina: “It’s broadening the definition of what making the web was. It wasn’t just about standardizing protocols and running code, it was about building the places where people wanted to come and connect and share.”  9:07— Paul: “Moderation…it’s critical, it’s key to these communities but it doesn’t get as much appreciation as ‘I wrote a page of code.’” 20:51 — Claire: “We’re all very siloed in the contemporary media landscape.” A full transcript for this episode is available. LINKS Claire L Evans Y△CHT Broad Band : The Untold Story of the Women Who Made the Internet Ada Lovelace Jamie Levy Halt and Catch Fire BBS Echo BBS Stacy Horn Heather Champ Polymaths Track Changes is the weekly technology and culture podcast from Postlight, hosted by Paul Ford and Rich Ziade. Production, show notes and transcripts by EDITAUDIO. Podcast logo and design by Will Denton of Postlight.