Method To The Madness

Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:01] This is Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area Innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today, our first show of 2020 will feature Layla Salazar-Lopez, the executive director of Amazon Watch. Most people know what Amazon Watch is, but for some people who may not know, can you review the mission?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:00:31] Sure. Thanks for having me. Amazon Watch is a Bay Area based nonprofit organization. We were founded in 1996. Our mission is to protect the Amazon rainforest and advance the rights of indigenous peoples throughout the Amazon basin. The Amazon rainforest is the biggest tropical rainforest on the planet. Most people know and think of the Amazon as the lungs of the earth. All those trees, all of that life, absorbing carbon and producing rain for not just the Amazon, but for the world. This massive rainforest, an ecosystem, actually helps to create the weather systems throughout South America and also around the world. So it is a vital organ of the earth's ecosystem. And so we're working to protect the rainforest to avert climate chaos. And our theory of change is that the best way to do that is by working with, standing with, supporting the rights and the voices in the territories of indigenous peoples.Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:44] And is that because they live there, they are on the front lines of i?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:01:48] Of course! indigenous peoples have been living in the Amazon rainforest for thousands of years, over 400 distinct nationalities, groups and even uncontacted peoples. Indigenous peoples in the Amazon and throughout the world are the best protectors of the natural places that we still have left on this planet. Eighty percent of the biodiversity around the world is on indigenous people's lands. So if we are concerned about climate change or chaos, I would say, or if we concern about the extinction crisis that we're facing, one of the best ways that we can do all we can to protect what we have left, is to support indigenous people's territories being protected. Those are the places that have the biodiversity and have the trees that create the much needed rain.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:43] Well, you just got back from the Madrid climate summit, the 25th summit, and it was supposed to be in Brazil. And Bolonaro nixed that. And there have been many challenges, but it did come off. I wondered if you could give us sort of a a summary of what what you talked about.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:03:00] You know, as you mentioned, COP 25, which is a conference of parties on climate change, world leaders, government leaders, elected leaders, negotiators that represent governments. Nearly 200 governments around the world attend the cops, plus civil society, NGOs, affected communities and also corporations. Unfortunately, the COP for decades has been primarily dominated by governments and corporations. That's why we've had 25 years of inactivity, really, of doing the minimum. And yes, we could praise the Paris Climate Agreement. Amazon Watch was there with indigenous peoples from around the world, from the Amazon to Alaska, to ensure that the voices of of the community that are most affected are heard. Our focus at COP 25 was to amplify the voices of indigenous peoples. There are very few spaces for indigenous peoples, people who are protecting biodiversity on our planet, for them to speak, for them to share their concerns and share their solutions. And so our mission is to ensure that they have a space not only to have space, but they are promoting their solutions and their solutions are heard. And one of those solutions is the Sacred Headwaters Initiative. So we released a report, at COP, a threat assessment on the sacred headwaters. And we spoke to global media and got a lot of attention on this region. It's in Ecuador and Peru, which is the most biodiverse part of the Amazon. It's Yasuni National Park. The scientists, the conservationists who are on the ground in the Yasuni, the indigenous peoples who live there, say that this is the most biodiverse part of the Amazon. It's under threat by massive oil development. This region, the tropical Andes region of the Amazon, is mega-biodiverse. We need our governments and true leaders to really take the action that's needed, right now, which is to make commitments to really take us off fossil fuels.Lisa Kiefer: [00:05:05] So what does the COP 25 conference hold people to?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:05:08] All of the governments, 196 countries have made commitments to reduce emissions. I mean, that's really the language spoken at COP, to reduce emissions, to deal with mitigation, adaptation. Governments have made commitments to reduce emissions. The big elephant in the room is what about stopping extraction? What about a phase out, a full phase out of fossil fuel extraction and a complete commitment to a transition to renewable energies, to renewable energy economies, green jobs? Like what we're talking about in the Green New Deal. The Green New Deal is a recipe for what, not just the United States, but world governments can be doing around the world to do what's really, really needed. Because if we only focus on reducing emissions, we are not going to get below 1.5 degrees. 1.5 degrees is really what we need to aim for. We've already surpassed 350 parts per million. We're on a track to go way beyond 2 degrees and way beyond 2 degrees is is what we're seeing. We're seeing the signs of it now. We're seeing Australia. We're seeing California. I mean, right here in our own backyard for three years, for three summers and falls, we have felt the effects of climate change and climate chaos. We have had massive wildfires, massive forest fires. And not just in the forest. Right? They've all also affected communities, you know, from Santa Rosa to Paradise. We're not just seeing fires, you know, in forests in California. We're seeing fires in the Arctic. We're seeing fires in the Amazon. We're seeing fires in Australia right now. It's not 10 years away. It's not 20 years away. It's now.Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:59] I'm curious if Black Rock was at the COP 25 conference. Do they show up?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:07:05] Representatives of Black Rock. Representatives of Exxon. Representatives of agribusiness or the fossil fuel and agribusiness industries? The financiers. I mean, they're definitely there.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:17] And do you feel that you had success this time or is it just sort of a stalemate?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:07:21] I think COP 25 was a major failure for the state of the planet right now. Major failure for global governments, considering the urgency of what we're facing.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:32] We have so many distractions right now, the assassination of Soleimani, the impeachment proceedings, those are attention grabbers. With those challenges of distraction, what is your strategy at Amazon Watch for 2020 to keep you in the news cycle?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:07:48] At the end of August 2019, the world woke up to what was really happening in the Amazon. It's what we've been seeing for decades, which is, the Amazon is under major, major threat by governments, including, you know, the Bolsonaro government in Brazil, by corporations, primarily agri-business in Brazil, and the fossil fuel and mining industries in the western Amazon and also by the banks that invest in these destructive projects and destructive practices. You know, warning after warning, report after report, protest after protest, we were doing everything that we could to sound the alarm. And it wasn't until the news story broke that the Amazon is on fire. And the visuals people saw the rainforest on fire, that people started to say, what is happening? You know, not only the Amazon is on fire, we should stop the fires, but why? Why is Amazon on fire? The Amazon is not on fire because it was an accidental wildfire. The Amazon was set on fire. The Amazon was set on fire by intentional government policies to set the fires, to clear land, to make way for agri-business. And that's why over 3 million hectares of forest burned in Brazil and over five million burned in Bolivia. And while people will say there's always fires, yeah, there's always a dry season and a wet season in the Amazon. But the fires are not like this. And the reason they're not like this is because, one, there is a drought-- for many years. And two, there was an intentional, deliberate, malicious intent behind this.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:31] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, I'm speaking with Leila Salazar Lopez, the executive director of Amazon Watch, an organization that protects and defends the bio cultural and climate integrity of the Amazon rainforest.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:10:00] There's always been fires in in Australia during the dry season and they're wildfires. They're not intentionally set. But why have millions of hectares of Australia burned and are burning at the same time? Because there has been a massive drought caused by climate change. Basically what I'm saying is making the connection between the Amazon and Australia's drought caused by climate change and there's governments behind policies that are ignoring the reality of what's happening.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:28] Bolsonaro's argument is to the world that 'this is my country. Don't tell me how to run my country.'Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:10:35] Well, he prides himself on calling himself the Trump of the tropics. Bolsonaro is a far right president who was elected last year in Brazil. You know, we're talking about a fascist, a leader, and, you know, I hesitate to say that because I think, you know, a leader should be thinking about all of their people they're representing. People like Bolsonaro were elected on a platform of stability and security. The prior government was deemed corrupt, inefficient. And so what the government ran on was, you know, we need security. We need jobs and we need to better our economy. And under the Lula administration, under the prior socialist, the Worker's Party platform, the government of Brazil was on top. The National Development Bank had money and they were, you know, constructing and building and had plans to have zero poverty, zero hunger, zero deforestation. They had a soy moratorium. They had lots of policies in place. But they also, because there were the Workers Party, they also were promoting jobs that were mostly engineering construction jobs like huge industrial construction, including the Belo Monte Dam, which is the third largest mega dam in the world. And it was built in the middle of the Amazon rainforest. So, you know, while we had many, many concerns, environmental and human rights concerns, with the prior government. They are nothing in comparison to what's happening with this government. The Bolonaro government is in an all out attack on civil society, is an all out attack on indigenous people, on human rights, on women, on Afro-Brazilians across the country, the environment. And we've seen it since day one in office. A year ago when Bolsonaro was elected, he immediately merged ministries, the agriculture, the environment ministry. He defunded the FUNAI, which is like the Bureau of Indian Affairs, de-funded IBAMA, which is the Environmental Agency, like the Environmental Protection Agency. How is IBAMA and FUNAI going to do their work in protecting the rainforest and defending indigenous people's rights if they don't have any funding? And it was intentional, if you defund them yet there's no forest guards, there's no there's no monitoring. I mean, Brazil is the most dangerous place to be an indigenous or human rights activist. And that was even before Bolsanaro. But now it's even worse. On a weekly basis, we're getting reports of indigenous people primarily being assassinated, not only threatened, but assassinated on their lands for protecting their lands, for protecting forests from cattle ranchers, from people paid by agri-business, people paid by corporations, to take their land and land grabbers.Lisa Kiefer: [00:13:29] So what do you, as an organisation, what are you going to do about this?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:13:32] So Amazon Watch has been working since 1996, protecting the rainforest, defending human rights, indigenous rights. And our mission isn't going to change. Our strategies are really to hone in on the major threats and who's causing those threats. So, for example, we are naming and shaming the governments, companies and banks that are responsible. We actually released a report last April with ipb, which is the articulation of indigenous peoples of Brazil, because remember, Brazil has the world's largest rainforest, tropical rainforests, the world's largest tropical savanna and the world's largest wetlands, the Amazon, the Sahado and the Pantanal. It is a massive, interconnected ecosystem protected by indigenous peoples and very threatened by industry and government. And so we are organizing campaigns, organizing actions, coordinating with our NGO allies, with indigenous allies, with human rights organizations around the world to act for the Amazon. And immediately after the news of the fires broke at the end of September, we called upon allies around the world and said, let's all work together. Let's all work together. This is the time to work together.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:48] And who are those allies?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:14:50] Extinction rebellion, Greenpeace, Avaaz, Rainforest Action Network, and here locally in the Bay Area, Brazil Solidarity Network. Every month, there's an action at the Brazilian consulate since Bolsonaro was elected, there's been actions to respond to the attacks on the rainforest, attacks on indigenous people, attacks on Afro-Brazilians. Attacks on women. And so if we continue to coordinate actions at the Brazilian consulate, the government, we continue to organize actions at BlackRock, which we have done many times over the last year. And we also engage with the governments and these corporations when possible. We're writing them letters. We're going to their headquarters. During the U.N. Climate Week in September with a delegation of, you know, over 50 people, we went into BlackRock's corporate headquarters in New York and delivered over 500000 thousand letters from around the world to say BlackRock stop investing in the destruction of the Amazon, the destruction of our climate. BlackRock is an asset manager that is the biggest investor in climate destruction around the world. They invest in oil and gas. They invest in mining. They invest in agro business. And so there's a network called "BlackRock's big problem" that we're a part of, that is organizing, you know, writing reports and writing letters to BlackRock and engaging with BlackRock, going to their shareholder meetings. Before two years ago, no one had ever been to a BlackRock Shareholder meeting. It was just 30 people sitting around a table in suits. And over the last two years, they've had to face criticism. They've had to face indigenous peoples in their boardrooms. They've had to face, you know, NGOs and questioning.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:36] Has this resulted in any changes?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:16:38] Not yet, to be totally honest. You know, Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock every January, puts out a letter to clients saying how they're committed to the environment, how they're committed to equality. You know, we're going to continue to call him out on that and hold him to those words, because if you're saying you're committed to the environment and climate change, we don't want minimum action, as Greta Thunberg so eloquently says. You know, we have to act as if our house is on fire because it is. We are responding to the needs and requests of our partners, primarily in the Amazon.Lisa Kiefer: [00:17:18] So how often do you go down there?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:17:20] I go a couple times a year to to meet with our partners and actually be in the forest and get inspiration for, you know, why we're doing this work. And we also lead delegations down to the Amazon. We have field coordinators in the Amazon, in Ecuador and Peru and Brazil. And we're a pretty small organization. And our strength really lies in the partnerships, the long term partnerships that we have with the indigenous communities, organizations, national organization, national indigenous organizations and regional organizations, and as well as our NGO allies throughout the Amazon. So those long term partnerships are what help us define like what we need to do this year. You know, respond to the fires, respond to new oil development projects, respond to China in the Amazon, and then from there develop strategies. Also work with local movements such as the Sunrise Movement that is really led by the youth. The youth right now are really showing the leadership.Lisa Kiefer: [00:18:22] Who do you think of all the candidates is the most, would be the most reliable partner in terms of climate mitigation and adaptation?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:18:31] Amazon Watch doesn't officially endorse, but personally, there's only two candidates that even come close. And that's Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.Lisa Kiefer: [00:18:40] Well, they're the only ones who even talk about the Green New Deal.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:18:43] Yeah. Think about how much energy and resources governments put into war. We invest a lot of our tax money in, you know, it's all in. But when it's time to think about the future of our children, grandchildren, seven generations and all life on this planet, what we need is a war effort to turn, not only turn emissions around, but turn extraction around and a complete commitment by government and civil society and the private sector and companies. If we have any kind of future left on this planet, we need to really turn around the way that we're living our daily lives. And, you know, that may be scary for people to hear. But when I say we need to, we need to change our economy, we need to change our daily way of life. It's not inconceivable to think that civil society can mobilize a new economy, a new way of life, new policies that could protect us and and our future. Nationalism and the rise of nationalism is the opposite of what we need to be doing. You know, we need to be looking at planet Earth like a system. We're all on this earth together. We have no other, even though there's some people who want to build, you know, space stations and think they can get away from our problems. The majority of the people can't. We are the Majority. We're way more than them. We can demand and make the changes that we need.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:20:04] I'm curious how you got involved in the Amazon. Was there a moment where you were inspired to do that?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:20:10] Well, I grew up in Southern California, near the border. My family's from Mexico. I grew up pretty traditional Mexican family. We grew up near the beach. And one summer there was a medical waste spill on our beach. We couldn't go on the beach for a while. And that was my kind of wakeup call to environmental awareness. You know, because the beach was like, oh, you know, it's where we go to to play, to rest, enjoy. And it's free and it should be open and accessible to everyone. And when it wasn't, that was my wake-up call. And then from there, you know, we we started up an environmental group on our high school campus and, you know, started doing beach cleanups. And that was kind of the beginning of activism. We started our environmental group and we started or organizing our own Earth Day festivals and Earth Day events. One of the guest speakers I will always remember because he gave a slideshow about the rainforest and it was so beautiful. And I'd never seen anything like that. And I just thought one day I want to go there. Fast forward a couple years. I'm at UC Santa Barbara and student advisor says, you know, you're going to need to do an internship in your second year. And, you know, you could volunteer at a local environmental organization or a local government representatives office. And I said, well, I wanna go to the rainforest. I said, okay, that's pretty far and pretty expensive. And I said, well, I'll take out a student loan. And I did that. And that changed my life. That changed the path and the direction of my life. Because, one, I'd never been to South America. I'd never seen the rainforest. I'd never seen the beauty and also the destruction and the threats. The summer of 1995 was when I connected with the forest and realized that it was indigenous peoples who were protecting it and that they were a library of knowledge that could not be replicated in any way. You know, just walking in the forest with someone who has lived there all their life and has a spiritual connection to the forest. I mean, you could walk 30 meters and they will know every single plant that you walk by and know what its properties are. Know what it's used for and whether it's used to build a house, or to cook with, or to use as medicine, or to build a canoe. They know how to use everything and they do it with respect. And that, just that, was like a huge lesson in what is really needed to protect the forest. On my way out of the forest, I saw an oil spill. The trans Ecuadorian pipeline had ruptured and crude oil from the north east Ecuadorian Amazon was just spilling into the river, into the main water source of the city of Quito, the capital city of Ecuador. It was my, you know, my second kind of wake-up call to how could this be happening? Who did this? Why is this happening? Who allowed this? Why aren't they shutting it off? Why isn't it stopping? That really enraged me. And I found out that it was Texaco who had set up the infrastructure, who had basically found oil in the Amazon, set up the entire infrastructure, convinced the government in the 1960s to allow them to set up the infrastructure and drill and dump. And there were no environmental or human rights or indigenous rights laws in the country or even in the world. At that time, there weren't conventions on, there was a declaration on human rights, but there wasn't the declaration on indigenous rights. But still, during this time, Texaco drilled and dumped on the indigenous territories of five indigenous nationalities. And also where uncontacted peoples are and created what we called a rainforest Chernobyl. And still to this day, even though Chevron, which Texaco is now Chevron here in the bay, even though Chevron was found guilty in 2012, they still have not paid a dime, and probably have paid more in legal fees in the last 25 years to fight this than to resolve it. They've never denied that they did it, that they drilled and dumped. They don't wanna set a precedent that if you do this, you'll be held accountable. When I got back from the Amazon the first time, I said, I'm going to dedicate my life to doing everything I can to prevent this from happening again. And I will do everything I can to hold this company accountable. And so in 2002, when I first started working for Amazon Watch, we launched a campaign called the Chevron Cleanup Ecuador Campaign. And so we've been doing a lot of.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:34] That was very successful.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:24:34] The Chevron lawsuit was a major, major victory when we heard news of of the judgment. It was one of the proudest moments of...Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:46] We can do this.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:24:47] We can do this. Like this is one of the biggest just a very typical David Goliath story. Right. We're going up against one of the biggest corporations on the planet. We beat them. Also another Oil victory was Occidental Petroleum. Occidental Petroleum did very similar to what Chevron, Texaco, now Chevron did in the Peruvian Amazon. And after seven years of attending their shareholder meetings, also filing a lawsuit against them with the Otwar people of Peru. We we actually settled a lawsuit with Occidental Petroleum and they agreed to pay a settlement to the Otwar people for the contamination that they had caused in the Peruvian Amazon and also with Oxy, one of the first and most proudest victories of Amazon Watch, is working with the Ottawa and a whole network that wide defense coalition around the world to get Occidental Petroleum out of what territory in Colombia. Many of our victories, the last one I'll mention is in Brazil. Actually, it's the Tapajos dam and we were not able to stop the Belo Monte mega dam construction. The following dam proposal was Tapajos mega dam on one last free flowing blackwater rivers in the Amazon, in Brazil. And just a few years ago, the Brazilian government announced that they were not going to build it. They were actually going to change their dam building policy and begin to invest in renewable energy. That's now all changed with Bolsanaro.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:18] Are the dams back on the table?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:26:20] Everything's back on the table. I mean, their policy is the Amazon is open for business. And I think that's shameful. It's completely shameful.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:28] What are some of your immediate plans as an organization?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:26:32] Funny that you mentioned it. Amazon Watch has been a pretty small organization for the last 23 years. I mean, we've been around 10 people plus field consultants plus, you know, working with our partners across the Amazon. One result of the attention on the Amazon is that there's been a lot more interest in supporting organizations like ours. And so we are growing. There is a lot more attention on organizations such as Amazon Watch and a lot more offers for financial support and a lot more offers for volunteers and people who across the world who want to volunteer, who want to help. And so right now, we're at a moment, we're actually at a moment of strategic planning to really envision what we want the next five to 10 years, the focus of our next five to 10 years, to be. Our mission is to protect the rainforest, defend indigenous rights and advance climate justice. We're going to continue to focus on those strategic areas with campaigns, but we have to do it with more urgency because the Amazon is at a tipping point. Scientists say that the Amazon will reach its tipping point when the deforestation and degradation is over 20 percent. It's about 17 to 18 percent now. And so what we need for the Amazon is a full scale commitment to protect, defend and restore it. Protect means protecting what's left. Anything that's still left standing, whether it be indigenous peoples territories, whether it be protected areas, national parks, private lands, anything that's still left standing needs to be protected and defended. And promote solutions of indigenous peoples, promote on the ground solutions for restoration, for alternative energy. We need to invest and increase the use of solar energy, the use of renewable energy.Lisa Kiefer: [00:28:19] And show some solutions.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:28:21] And show those solutions. And so we are working on promoting indigenous led solutions, promoting protection and defense of indigenous territories with our people in Peru. We're fighting Geo Park to get them off territory this year and in years to come. Our focus really is going to be on protecting and advancing the sacred headwaters and beyond. Who is complicit in the destruction of the Amazon? Let's call them out. Let's engage with them. Let's pressure them. We're also getting ready for the 50th anniversary of Earth Day, the establishment of the environmental movement around the world. I'm a UC Santa Barbara alumni. It's where the first environmental studies department was in the whole world. And why was that? Because there was a giant oil spill in 1969 in Santa Barbara. And what that sparked was a movement, that sparked environmental studies department at UC Santa Barbara. It sparked environmental laws across this country. It sparked Earth Day. When we reflect on 50 years ago and everything that's happened, we've made progress and we've also majorly rolled back progress with the Trump administration. Here in the United States, we need to defend all of the achievements over the last 50 years. We need to defend our laws. We need to defend our rights and our democracy. And that's very similar to what Brazilians are saying. We're at a turning point, a very important election that, you know, could really turn things around. We have to do everything we possibly can.Lisa Kiefer: [00:29:55] If you could just tell people how they might get a hold of you?Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:29:57] Amazonwatch.org. Follow us on social media for all the latest reports and news and updates and opportunities to get involved. We're located in Oakland. You can call us up, visit us. We would really encourage youth and students and anyone who wants to get involved to make the connections between California and the Amazon. The oil and the Amazon, while it comes from the Amazon, the majority that's exported comes right here to California. We are very connected to the Amazon. It's it's it's real. Learn more. Go to our Web site. We have to do this together.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:36] Thank you, Leila, for coming on the program.Leila Salazar-Lopez: [00:30:38] You're welcome. Thank you.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:41] You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. We'll be back again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

TranscriptLisa Kiefer: [00:00:03] This is method to the madness, a biweekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. And today I'm speaking with Gabriel Zucman Professor of Economics and Public Policy here at UC Berkeley. He has just co-authored a book with Emmanuel Saez called The Triumph of Injustice --How the Rich Dodge Taxes and How to Make Them Pay. Welcome to the program, Gabriel.Gabriel Zucman: [00:00:36] Thanks for having me.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:37] Why did you write this book. What was the problem or problems you were trying to solve?Gabriel Zucman: [00:00:42] So the main problem is the rise of inequality in the US. So if you look for instance at what has happened to income concentration, in 1980, the top 1 percent highest earners in the U.S. earned about 10 percent of total U.S. national income today they earn 20 percent of U.S. national income. Now contrast that with what has happened for the working class for the bottom 50 percent of earners. They used to earn 20 percent of income and now about 12 percent. So essentially the top 1 percent and the bottom 50 percent have have switched their income share. And the reality of the U.S. today is that the 1 percent earns twice as much income in total than the bottom 50 percent a group that by definition is 50 times larger. So you have this huge level of inequality and this big increase in inequality and the tax system is a key institution to regulate inequality. And so we wanted to know OK does it do a good job? Does the tax system limit inequality or does it exacerbate the rise of inequality?Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:58] And as you say in your book all the way back to James Madison the whole point of taxes yes is to raise revenue but the other significant point was to reduce inequality.Gabriel Zucman: [00:02:07] Exactly.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:08] And that's something that's been kind of forgotten since 1980.Gabriel Zucman: [00:02:11] That's been forgotten despite the fact that it's deeply rooted in American society. The U.S. was created in large part in reaction against the highly unequal aristocratic societies of of Europe in the 18th century and ever since, many people in the US have been concerned about becoming as unequal as Europe. Europe for a long time was perceived as as an anti model, too unequal, at least until the middle of the 20th century. Now it's the opposite, it's funny to see how these beliefs and perceptions have changed over time. Now many people in the US feel that Europe is too equal, but in fact for most of US history it was it was the opposite. The US invented some of the key progressive fiscal institutions designed to limit inequality to regulate inequality. Let me just give one example. In 1943 Franklin Roosevelt goes to Congress. He makes a famous speech. He says I think that no American should have an income after paying taxes of more than twenty five thousand dollars which is the equivalent of a few million dollars today. Therefore I propose to create a top marginal income tax rate of 100 percent above twenty five thousand dollars. And that's the idea of a legal maximum income. That's an American, a Roosevelt invention. And people in Congress they hesitate a little bit you know 100 percent, maybe it's too much, but they agree on 93 percent which when you think about it is that very far from 100 percent. And then the U.S. kept these very high modern 90 percent top marginal income tax rates for a long time. So there is this deeply rooted tradition in the U.S. of using the tax system to limit the concentration of income. The idea being that wealth is a good thing for the working class, for the middle class. It provides safety, provides security. But for the very rich,wealth is not safety or security. Wealth is power. And an extreme concentration of wealth means an extreme concentration of power, of political power, of economic power, which is detrimental to the rest of society and so one key function of the tax system is to prevent such a concentration of wealth and such a concentration of power from happening.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:52] You've been consulting with Elizabeth Warren and others adopting pieces of some of the ideas that you had. How does Elizabeth Warren's plan, when you plug it into your model in the book, your 1980 model,what was the outcome of plugging in her wealth tax.Gabriel Zucman: [00:05:09] So Elizabeth Warren proposes to create a wealth tax at a rate of 2 percent above 50 million dollars and 6 percent above 1 billion dollars. So just let me explain what this would do. It means that if you have 50 million dollars in wealth or less, you pay zero. One of the things we do in the book we tried to imagine how the U.S. economy would have looked like if such a tax had been in place since 1982. So let me first start with what has happened to wealth concentration since 1982. If you look at the 400 richest Americans, you know Forbes magazine has estimates every year of their wealth. And according to Forbes magazine, the 400 richest Americans owned about 1 percent of U.S. wealth in 1982. And today they own about three point five percent of U.S. wealth. That is their wealth has been growing much much much faster than the economy as a whole and than average wealth in the economy. If the Warren wealth tax had been in place since 1982, inequality, wealth concentration would have increased much less, it would have increased a little bit. That is, today, the top 400 richest Americans would own about one point five percent of U.S. wealth. So a bit more than 82 but that would be much less than the current three point five percent. So this shows something which is very, to me, is very striking, a 6 percent tax on wealth. It's a big deal. You know it means that someone who has a hundred billion dollars has to pay six billion dollars a year in taxes. So it's big. And even if that tax had been in place since 1982, billionaires would still have seen their share of wealth increase.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:00] In other words they'd still be billionaires.Gabriel Zucman: [00:07:02] Not only billionaires but multi billionaires. Some of them would still have tens of billions of dollars because the rise of wealth inequality has been so massive. The growth rate of wealth of billionaires has been so much higher than the growth rate of wealth for the rest of the population that even with a big wealth tax you know it would not have been enough to reduce inequality.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:26] Well you give a good example about Warren Buffett. You know he's always bragging about how "I pay taxes. I pay a lot of taxes."Gabriel Zucman: [00:07:32] Yeah. So Warren Buffett is a good illustration for why we need a wealth tax. He's one of the main shareholders of Berkshire Hathaway. His wealth, according to Forbes magazine again, is about 80 billion dollars. His true economic income is his share of Berkshire Hathaway's profits. It's something like five billion dollars a year. That's his income. But what he does is that he instructs this company that he owns, Berkshire Hathaway, not to pay dividends. And so his only taxable income is when he sells a few shares every year of his company, is a taxable income of the order of 10 to 20 million dollars. And on that 10 or 20 million dollars he pays three or six million in capital gains taxes. And now you do the math. His true economic income is 5 billion. His tax bill is something like 5 million. So his effective tax rate is essentially zero percent.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:41] It's lower than his secretary.Gabriel Zucman: [00:08:43] It's not only lower than its secretary, it's it's zero. Essentially you know five million compared to five billion. It's nothing. Then you have a number of proposals such as oh but let's just increase the top marginal income tax rate or let's just increase the tax rate on capital gains.But you see the problem....Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:01] That's what Bill Gates says.Gabriel Zucman: [00:09:03] That's what Bill Gates, Warren Buffett himself, there is this so-called Buffett Rule that was popular at some point among Democrats and the idea was we need to increase the tax rate on capital gains. Fine. You know it's not a bad idea. But you have to realize that the Buffett rule itself would make essentially no difference to Warren Buffett's tax bill, because even if you increase the capital gains tax rate to 100 percent let's say, then Warren Buffett would have to pay let's say 20 million in taxes. 20 million divided by five billion, which again is his true income, would still be zero percent. So if you want to tax billionaires like Warren Buffett or like Jeff Bezos or like Mark Zuckerberg, the proper way to do that is with a tax on the stock of wealth itself, with a wealth tax. Because when you're extremely rich it's very easy to own billions or tens of billions while having very little taxable income. And so you cannot tax billionaires well just with the income tax. You also need a wealth tax.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:10] Gates also argues estate taxes and I like your argument in the book, you say well you know fine but are we going to wait around all these years? Some of these billionaires are very young.Gabriel Zucman: [00:10:21] Yeah exactly. You look at Mark Zuckerberg you know he's in his 30s. He's not paying much taxes today. Just like the Warren Buffett example because Facebook doesn't pay dividends. Facebook doesn't pay a lot of corporate tax. So is it wise to wait for 50 years or more before some of the country's wealthiest individuals stopped paying taxes. I don't think that's very wise. You Know, essentially because there are all these needs for revenue for early education, for university, for health care, for infrastructure. These are immediate needs and some billionaires can contribute much much more than they do today. There's no good reason to wait for 50 years to make them contribute.Lisa Kiefer: [00:11:12] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm speaking with Professor Gabriel Zucman about his new book The Triumph of injustice how the rich dodge taxes and how to make them pay, co-authored by another economics professor here Emmanuel Saez. They advocate for a progressive wealth tax as a solution to global inequality, one that rethinks both evasion and the goals of taxation.Lisa Kiefer: [00:11:48] You talk about labor versus capital and I want you to explain that a little bit because you said for the first time in history labor pays more than capital. Why do the working class pay so many taxes right now. And that has to do with that labor capital crossover.Gabriel Zucman: [00:12:04] Absolutely. So historically the U.S. has taxed capital a lot. The corporate tax was high. The estate tax. Taxes and dividends, on interest. Property taxes. So there is a long tradition of relatively heavy capital taxation in the US. The main change that has happened since the 1980s is that these capital taxes have been rolled back, have have been cut massively, so the corporate income tax is a prime example. In December 2017, the Trump tax reform slashed the corporate income tax rate from 35 percent to 21 percent. Another good example is the estate tax which used to generate quite a lot of revenue in the 1970s. Today almost nobody pays the estate tax and even the very wealthy who are supposed to pay it can claim valuation discount and avoid it in many ways so that the revenue generated by the estate tax is extremely small. Dividends are taxed less than wages and so on and so on so capital taxation is essentially disappearing,it has not disappeared completely but has it has been dramatically reduced. And at the same time Labor taxation has increased. So Labor taxation, what is it? Taxes on wages, you know the income tax, but also the payroll taxes. So no matter how low your wage is in the United States today, 15 percent of that wage is paid in payroll taxes, that fund Social Security and Medicare, and these payroll taxes they used to be quite small you know in the 50s-60s, less than 5 percent of income. And they've grown a lot and these are taxes that are essentially only on wage income. And so you have this process where wages have stagnated for the working class for the middle class. In fact at the bottom of the wage distribution, wages have declined a lot because the federal minimum wage has declined enormously since the 1970s. Today it's only seven point twenty five dollars. It's a number of states and and municipalities like Berkeley have higher minimum wages. But if you look at Southern states for instance they only have the federal minimum wage seven point twenty five dollars an hour, much lower than in the 70s, and at the same time as minimum wage workers so their income fall, their taxes have increased because of the big increase in payroll taxes. And I don't think that's a sustainable process.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:40] And not only that, the cost of childcare, education, I mean when you think about it, they could be considered taxes on the working people. You know you're out of pocket for everything and not to mention medical care and a lot of people do not even have medical care.Gabriel Zucman: [00:14:55] Absolutely. And that's a very important point. When you look for instance at health care, health insurance, it is in effect a giant tax today on working families. If you are lucky enough to work for a firm or an employer that has more than 50 workers, the firm has to provide you with health insurance, that's mandatory. And the way this works is that employers pay premiums to insurance companies and these premiums are enormous, the costs for covered work today on average is thirteen thousand dollars. That thirteen thousand dollars that in effect reduces the wage of employees. Okay. That's something that could be added to their wage for instance if there was a public insurance program, if everybody was covered by Medicare, workers could get thirteen thousand dollars more in wages and it would make no difference for employers. These insurance premiums are in effect a huge tax on labor, a huge hidden tax. There mandatory.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:04] You call it a poll tax.Gabriel Zucman: [00:16:05] We call them a poll tax or head tax because they are of a fixed amount per head, that is, the employer pays those same essentially for a secretary and for an executive-- thirteen thousand dollars. So it's the most regressive type of tax. It doesn't depend on income, it doesn't depend on your ability to pay. It reduces wages by thirteen thousand dollars for all work workers no matter what their wage is. This is a huge problem. This is a big part of the reason why wages have stagnated since the 1980s for the working class and the middle class. Their wages have stagnated because employers have to pay more and more to private health insurance companies and so that leaves less and less money that can be paid in wages.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:56] In the Democratic debates, why are they not explaining this. They seem to defend the choice of a private insurance tax. "Oh let people choose." It doesn't sound like people truly understand what they are choosing.Gabriel Zucman: [00:17:11] I agree. We are trying to explain that in the book and we are trying to explain that to as many people as we can. There are many problems with the way that healthcare and health insurance currently works in the US, but the main problem is how it reduces wages dramatically for the working class and for the middle class. And we have a solution. In my opinion, this is how things should be presented. If you move to a universal public health insurance program let's call it Medicare for all. What would happen the first Year? Employers would be required to convert insurance premiums into wages. That is, an employer that used to pay thirteen thousand dollars for the health care of each employees, would add thirteen thousand dollars to their wages, so this would be the biggest pay raise in a generation. First year of Medicare for all, everybody's wage increases by thirteen thousand dollars. And then of course you need to collect extra taxes to fund Medicare for all. But if these taxes are smart enough, if they are not head taxes or poll taxes that doesn't vary with income but rather if they are taxes based on your income or your wealth or if you tax corporate profits, you can make sure that the new tax would be much lower for the vast majority of workers than the extra wage that they gained. And so you can make sure that 90 percent of workers would benefit from a transition to Medicare for All in the sense that they would have a huge wage boost. They would have to pay a bit more in taxes but the extra tax would be much less than thirteen thousand dollars. Any my way is the proper way to explain Medicare for all. Your wages have stagnated. Big part of the explanation is there so much money that goes to private health insurance. There's going to be a law that says all the premiums are converted back into wages. Part of your wage was stolen. Now we're giving it back to you. You have a huge wage boost. We're going to raise taxes. But in a progressive manner so that the bottom 90 percent of the income distribution has a big net of tax pay increase.Lisa Kiefer: [00:19:33] With a wealth tax, it seems like the taxes for middle class and lower class would actually go down, even paying for Medicare for all.Gabriel Zucman: [00:19:41] Yes that is, if you include current health insurance premiums in your measure of the tax rate which I think is legitimate since these premiums are essentially like private taxes, mandatory payments. And if you abolish these premiums and replace those by progressive taxes, you get a big tax cut for essentially 90 percent of the population.Lisa Kiefer: [00:20:05] That's something no one's talking about.Gabriel Zucman: [00:20:07] Not yet. I'm not losing hope.Lisa Kiefer: [00:20:09] One of your most interesting chapters is on tax evasion and tax competition, which is going to be a challenge to any kind of change to our tax system. Can you talk about what you discovered and actually it goes back to when you were working as a young man at Exane.Gabriel Zucman: [00:20:26] Yes. So many people have that view that in a globalized world it's impossible to tax multinational companies, impossible to tax corporations, because if you do that they would move their profits to tax havens, the Cayman Islands or Bermuda. Or they will move their factories or their headquarters, their production activities, to low tax places like Ireland. And so according to that view, the only possible future is the race to the bottom with respect to the corporate income tax rate. So countries slashing their rates one after another. And we are very much in that situation today where countries are slashing their corporate tax rate. And for a long time I thought OK no this this makes sense. I understand why in a globalized world, countries want to attract some activity by offering lower rate and there's going to be tax competition and it's the huge pressure that pushes towards lower rates. But what we understood by doing research, that the research is summarised in the book is that this view is actually wrong. That is tax competition, just like tax avoidance or tax evasion, these are not laws of nature. These are policy choices. So we've embraced as nations, collectively we've embraced a certain form of globalization, which is characterized by tax competition and tax avoidance. But that's a choice. It's not a very democratic or very transparent choice, not a very well-informed choice, but it's a choice that's been made, and we can make other choices. There's another form of globalization that's possible. There's no tax competition. There's no profit shifting. There's there's much less tax evasion. So the way this would work for instance is this: right now if you are a U.S. multinational company and you book your profits in Bermuda, for instance, where the corporate tax rate is 0 percent, you don't have to pay taxes. Bermuda chooses not to collect taxes and the U.S. essentially doesn't tax the profits booked by its companies abroad. Okay that's that's a choice but we can make another choice. We could say the U.S. is going to tax all the foreign profits of its companies. It's going to collect the taxes that other countries choose not to collect. If Apple for instance, books a billion dollars in profits in Bermuda, taxed at 0 percent, and then the corporate tax rate is 30 percent in the U.S., the U.S. is going to tax that billion dollar at a rate of 30 percent in the U.S.. If Apple Books profits in Ireland taxed at 2 percent in Ireland the U.S. is going to collect 28 percent, so that the total rate would be 30 percent on a country by country basis.Lisa Kiefer: [00:23:12] So that would change everything.Gabriel Zucman: [00:23:14] That changes everything because then it removes any incentive for firms to book profits in tax havens, or to move real activity to low tax places, one. And second, since firms wouldn't have incentives anymore to do these things, it removes any incentive for tax havens to offer low tax rates in the first place. Now they would have incentives to actually increase that tax rate as so you see how you change the race to the bottom into a race to the top.Lisa Kiefer: [00:23:48] Yes and manufacturing might start to happen more in the countries that had previously been taking them offshore.Gabriel Zucman: [00:23:54] Exactly and what might also happen is that instead of competing by offering low tax rates as countries do today, a very negative form of international competition, we would move to a more positive form of competition, where countries would compete by providing the best infrastructure for companies or by having the most productive workforce thanks to good universities, good schools, good hospitals. So that's how globalization could look like. You know it's good to have some competition but the form of competition that we have today, which is you know countries are competing by slashing their rates, a very negative and bad form of competition. We could have a much more positive form of competition once you put taxes out of the picture.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:46] So this would require cooperation amongst countries and just the will to do this.Gabriel Zucman: [00:24:52] Yeah and look there's already a lot of international economic cooperation. We've made a lot of progress. For instance, when it comes to trade agreements, some of that is is unraveling today with the Trump administration. But if you take the longer view. We've made tons of progress. Reducing tariffs in terms of facilitating access Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:14] Access to data which helped you with this book.Gabriel Zucman: [00:25:16] Exactly, in terms of access to data, so does there is international coordination. But the problem is that there's way too little coordination on the tax rates themselves. So for instance when countries talk about free trade agreements these days, these free trade agreements are essentially about property protection, protecting the rights of foreign investors and dispute resolution settlements. So know how to protect the rights of investors, but property cannot come with only rights and no duty, no, property also comes with the duty to pay taxes. And so the way to make progress, to reach an international agreement on taxes, in my view. is to put taxes at the center of free trade agreements, is to say, we are not going to sign any of any new free trade agreement if it's only to guarantee new rights to investors and ignores taxes. Any new free trade agreement should have taxes at the center stage and that's how it would become possible to make quickly a lot of progress in terms of tax coordination.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:19] And that's also true when you think about the constitutionality of any tax reform here in this country, it's going to require the will and the cooperation of our legislatures. It can happen.Gabriel Zucman: [00:26:32] Yeah it can happen because the current situation is is similar in many ways to the discussion during the Gilded Age in the late 19th century early 20th century. Inequality was rising a lot with industrialized nation, with urbanization, you know huge fortunes were being created. And second, the tax system was very unfair. At the time, the only or the biggest federal tax was the tariff. So taxes that essentially exempted the very wealthy and that that made the price of goods more expensive and so that hurt the working class, the middle class. The situation today is pretty much the same. Inequality is rising a lot, the tax system is less regressive than than during the Gilded Age, but this is much less progressive than what people think it is. During the Gilded Age you have all these debates about the creation of a progressive federal income tax. The 16th Amendment 1913 allows the federal government to levy progressive income tax and it was a huge success. So the income tax very quickly became extremely progressive with rates in 1917 of close to 70 percent. So it's it's a huge change in just a few years. In 1912. There's no income tax. People say it would never happen. It's unconstitutional. You know there's no way this is going to become reality. And then in 1913 the constitution changes. 1917, ,70 percent of marginal income tax rates for the highest earners. So I'm not saying that the same process is actually going to happen for the wealth tax today. But when I look at history, I see dramatic U-turns and changes and reversals and retreats so the history of taxation is far from linear. There is progress and that's what fundamentally makes me optimistic about the possibility for change and for reform.Lisa Kiefer: [00:28:27] Well when 50 percent of the population makes eighteen thousand five hundred dollars a year, it's untenable. You created a Web site. Tax Justice now dot org. That's all one word.Gabriel Zucman: [00:28:40] We developed this website to make the tax debate more democratic, because it's not for economists, it's not for experts, to say what taxes should be. It's for the people through democratic deliberation and the vote. And we want to give the tools, the knowledge, to the people. So it's a tool for the people to simulate their own tax reform. It's user friendly, it's very simple to use. Everything is is transparent. It's fully open source, with all the code you know online for people who want to dig into this. But the Web site itself is extremely simple. You don't need to be an expert or to know anything about economics. What the Website does is two things. One, it shows how regressive the U.S. tax system is today. When you take into account all taxes paid at all levels of government, the website shows what the effective tax rate for a group of the population and how it has changed over time. And then you can change taxes. You can change let's say the top marginal income tax rate. You can change a corporate tax rate. You can create new taxes like a wealth tax, change the rates, change the exemption threshold. And the website shows how this would affect the progressivity of the tax system, one. And second, it shows how much revenue would be collected. So let's say you want to fund Medicare for All, or free college, or student debt relief. These things have a cost and there's several ways to fund these things. And so the user can very simply say OK, with that combination of taxes, with that tax refund, I can collect enough revenue to do these important policy changes.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:24] Obviously you guys have plugged in all the numbers and come up with the ideal type of tax and you call it the national tax. Can you describe that and how it might be different from or in addition to a wealth tax?Gabriel Zucman: [00:30:37] The idea here is, how do we fund universal public health insurance and more broadly how could the U.S. increase its tax collection in a sustainable manner? The way that European countries do this is with value added taxes which are taxes essentially on consumption, better than sales taxes, but still pretty regressive because they're only on consumption and the rich consume a small fraction of their income whereas the poor consume most or even sometimes more than 100 percent of their income. And so what we are saying is look the U.S. doesn't have to introduce a V A T --A value added tax like other countries, it can leapfrog the V.A.T. and create a new tax which like the V.A.T. can collect a ton of revenue, but can do it in a much more progressive manner. And we call it the national income tax. And so the idea is for instance, if you want to fund Medicare for all. Step one is you convert the premiums into wages and so everybody's wage increases by thirteen thousand dollars. Step two, maybe year or year three. You create this new national income tax, which essentially is a tax on all labor costs and all profits made by corporations. So it's the broadest possible form of income taxation. And the beauty of it is that because it's so broad with a tax rate of only 5 percent, you can generate a lot of revenue, enough to replace all the insurance premiums that employers pay today.Lisa Kiefer: [00:32:20] What about education?[00:32:20] And you can increase the rates, go to 6 percent or 7 percent and that generates a lot of revenue that can be spent on early education, an area where there's nothing in the US in terms of public spending essentially, something municipalities do spend some money, but the U.S. is at the bottom of the international ranking when it comes to a public child care and early education in general. So that's a high priority. It's easy to collect a percent of GDP with that national income tax to fund universal early education. It's easy to collect an extra 1 percent if you want to make public universities, much more progressive than than anything else that exists.Lisa Kiefer: [00:33:01] And it's still less than what I would be paying today.Gabriel Zucman: [00:33:03] Of course.Lisa Kiefer: [00:33:04] Way less!Gabriel Zucman: [00:33:05] That's the beauty of it because today you're paying so much in child care, for college, for health, in a way that's very unfair because it doesn't depend on your income. It's the same amount essentially for each individual.Gabriel Zucman: [00:33:22] Essentially what's at stake is the future of globalization and the future of democracy. If globalization means ever lower taxes for its main winners, big multinational companies and their shareholders, and at the same time, higher and higher taxes for those who don't benefit a lot from globalization or sometimes suffer from it, retirees or small businesses, then it's not sustainable, neither economically nor politically. The problem with high and rising income and wealth inequality as as the Founding Fathers themselves understood at the time is that excessive wealth concentration corrodes democracy, corrodes the social contract, and we're seeing this today when you look at, for instance, what has been the main piece of legislation of the Trump presidency so far, it's been a big tax cut for wealthy individuals. So you've had three full decades of rising inequality and then on top of that, a law that adds fuel to that phenomenon. And it's hard to analyze this other than by saying that it reflects a form of political capture of plutocratic drift. That's the reality of the U.S. today and so if democracy is to prevail, and if we want to have a more sustainable form of globalization, we need to tackle this issue of tax injustice.Lisa Kiefer: [00:34:53] Thank you for being on the program,Gabriel.Gabriel Zucman: [00:34:56] Thank you so much for having me.Lisa Kiefer: [00:34:58] The book is The Triumph of Injustice --How the Rich Dodge Taxes and How to Make Them Pay. The website: TaxJusticeNow.org and you also have a profile in the October New Yorker which is really great reading. So thanks again for being on the program.Lisa Kiefer: [00:35:24] You've been listening to method to the madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today's guest was Gabriel Zucman, professor of economics and public policy here at UC Berkeley. We'll be back again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

TranscriptLisa Kiefer: [00:00:06] This is Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today, I'm speaking with Ashley Grosh, the CEO of PIP's Rewards. Thank you for coming on the show, Ashley. What is PIPs?Ashley Grosh: [00:00:36] So PIPs Rewards is an app and it's a technology platform that is owned and operated by our company 3P Partners. We call ourselves an impact tech company. What we really do is we turn a verifiable engagement in beneficial behaviors, things happening daily, riding your bike, bus riding, taking a workout class. All these beneficial behaviors that you might be doing throughout the day, we verify that and we award you our digital currency when you do those things. So Pip's is our digital currency, which stands for Positive Impact Points.Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:09] That's interesting. It sounds complex how you would measure this. So walk me through the application as a user. An example.Ashley Grosh: [00:01:18] Yeah. So from a user perspective, it's actually very lightweight and easy. You just would download the app in the app store for iPhone or Android. You download Pip's rewards. Today we're targeted in higher education, so you would use your university email through a single sign on. We would capture who you are. You'd set up an account and then you'd really begin to start using the platform. It takes you through a quick tutorial of what you need to do. You'd want to have your Bluetooth enabled and it shows you ways in which you can now start going out into the community and around campus and earning the currency. So a day in the life of a Pip's user, you may wake up in the morning, you fill up your water bottle, which has our little QR code sticker on it, which you may have gone to pick up an environmental center on campus. So you carry that water bottle with you. But when you fill it up, you take your phone out, you take a picture of your QR code and then you've earned 10 points. You can only refill your water bottle three times per day. So if you try to do that again, you'll get an error message. And that's really more just the behavior, we want you just to be in the habit of carrying that water bottle.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:19] You don't want people scamming this system.Ashley Grosh: [00:02:20] That's right. So we set barriers in place to make sure that doesn't happen. So then let's say you're going to a study group in the morning, so you hop on one of the bike shares programs that's here on campus and we are automatically already integrated with that bike sharing platform. So when you check out that bike, we know who you are. We know you're on that bike. And all the sudden immediately our currency goes into your digital wallet with inside the app. And now you've earned for refilling your water bottle. Now you've taken a bike to a meeting and now you've earned again. Let's say you're coming back up to campus for a class in the afternoon and you hop on the bus. Well, now we have either a beacon or an API integration installed with the transit company, and you don't even have to have your phone out for this. In some cases, we might use near-field communication. So we're using a lot of technologies, right, to integrate innovative technologies. If we think about the connected city, smart cities. Right. All these things to track and measure. So you come back up the bus to class and then again in your digital wallet, you see your currency being added for that behavior. :et's say in the afternoon then, there's a speaker coming onto campus that's talking about climate finance on an environmental or health related topic. So let's say you go to that event and that's one of the activities that we award for. We also capture that you've gone to that event and you've earned our currency than you maybe go refill your water bottle again. Then you go into housing and dining. You go have some lunch and let's say you brought your own silverware. So let's say you brought your own bamboo silverware and then let's say you're composting and you're doing all these things. We have different mechanisms to capture that as well within the dining hall. And if if the campus is interested in financial literacy, then students can take EDquity financial literacy modules and earn our currency. I'm giving you kind of a flavor, right, of you go about your day and you're earning all this currency.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:08] And it's very transparent to the user, it sounds like.Ashley Grosh: [00:04:11] Yeah, it happens in real time. So you can see your digital dashboard in your wallet.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:15] What is a a data point worth?Ashley Grosh: [00:04:17] So that's a great point. So one pip is worth one cent. And so then we we do this, you know, kind of carbon pricing on your actions. So when you're refilling a water bottle, you may only get 10 pips for that. But if you're riding the bus. Right, that's got a bigger implication in terms of your carbon savings. So maybe you'll get 50 pips, in that case, if you go to volunteer at a tree planning event in the community, maybe that's a thousand. So we work with the university to really put the value behind each of these actions.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:48] And then is this accumulated reward money, can it pay for education and books and things to do with college?Ashley Grosh: [00:04:55] There you go. That whole secret sauce. So what happens is when you accumulate your your pips in your wallet, well, then the question becomes, what can you do with it? Right. And so there's really kind of three key things that you can do. We have an in app e-commerce platform. And so we screen for green, though, any company that we partner with in there has to be promoting sustainability or have a sustainable product. And so we have some food companies in there. So Whole Foods, Chipotle, Patagonia's an example. Roffey shoes, right? These are sustainable companies and brands. And so you can convert your pip's into either gift cards or discounts with those vendors. It's really cool. So you can, you know, use that in app e-commerce site to redeem your currency. You also could donate your currency. So we work with a number of nonprofits, both national and local. So if you're really interested in a cause, an environmental justice or the Nature Conservancy or something happening right here in your community, you can donate your pip's and we will cut a check to that organization from 3P on your behalf. And then the real secret sauce that we just rolled out last spring is the Pip's for Schools program. So this is where it now you can take the Pip's that you've earned and convert it to pay down tuition, books, school fees. We do that through the Office of Financial Aid and then we have a separate fund called the Pips Education Fund in which we provide a match. So let's say you have $100 that you've accumulated. You put that towards your books. We provide you a one to one match. Now you've gotten a $200 scholarship.Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:27] Who's matching it? Ashley Grosh: [00:06:32] So we have a separate fund and it's a 501 C 3 non-profit. We're raising for that fund separately.Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:34] And so people can donate to that fund. Ashley Grosh: [00:06:36] Absolutely. So, alumni or corporate partners, charitable institutions, community foundations, people that are really interested in supporting education, sustainability, student success and higher ed can make a contribution and donate to that fund. And then we use that fund to make the match. And our goal over time is to get to a two or three to one match. So all the sudden you go about your daily life, you're doing all these good things. You're earning the currency that has real value and you're putting that towards your education. When students are taking those earned pips and converting them to tuition dollars, the money's then flowing back to the university through the Office of Financial Aid. And then we are providing through our separate 501 C-3, the Pip's Education Fund, a match. And so really the university is recouping their initial investment of the subscription back through the Office of Financial Aid. So it's a really great ROI for the university. It's really a win win win.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:33] The technology behind this is mind boggling to me. It seems like there's a lot of tech pieces, a lot of data points.Ashley Grosh: [00:07:40] It is. It is.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:41] It's very I mean, it's transparent to the user. But can you talk to me about the technology that is in place and how that all works?Ashley Grosh: [00:07:49] Yeah. So some of it, you know, we install so there is an infrastructure component. So I mentioned on buses or on transit or if you're going to an event on campus, we may use little beacons or sensors. And these sensors can know that if you're in the building, it's Bluetooth enabled. And so we can pick up on that, that that student ID is there, we verify that you're there.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:10] So do you have to turn that on, the behavior tracking system?Ashley Grosh: [00:08:12] You just turn on your Bluetooth and actually people may or may not know this, but these beacons and sensors are used in retail stores. So if I go into Target, for example, they want to know how long am I spending in each section? How long am I spending in the food, in the women's clothing? I'm a mom. So how long am I spending in the baby section? Right. So beacons and sensors have been used in the retail market too.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:34] From your phones.Ashley Grosh: [00:08:35] From your phones through location based services. Right. If those are enabled on your phone to get data. And now that's a different use case. Right. So we're not using that. We're using it in more of a closed loop system.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:46] There's a lot of talk about giving you back money for your data that you're giving to like, say, Facebook or Amazon. And there are some parallels as far as, you know, verification and the tracking.Ashley Grosh: [00:08:56] You're right on. I mean, this question comes up a lot, but we follow the privacy policy of the university so we don't do anything with that data other than analyze it, look at it and share it with the university. And then the university looks at, wow, look at the impact, look how many bike rides or look how many bus rides. And wow maybe we need another bus station over here because we're seeing so much action and so we only share the data with the university and we use it to measure retention, engagement, a bunch of things related to the platform. We would never sell that data anywhere outside of the campus.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:34] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness a bi weekly public affairs show on K.A.L.X. Berkeley celebrating innovators. Today, I'm speaking with Ashley Grosh, the COO of Pip's. Pip's uses a behavior tracking platform to reward positive behavior.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:00] How do you know that a company or a service that I use as a student is sustainable?Ashley Grosh: [00:10:05] In the case of like Patagonia, for example, who we bring onto the platform,.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:08] That one's pretty obvious.Ashley Grosh: [00:10:09] That one's pretty obvious, right. But, you know, Rothey's is a good example or Blue Planet that makes sustainable sunglasses. So we really do as a B Corp Right. So we're a certified B Corp. Okay.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:21] And just so our audience knows, a benefit corporation is for profit, but you are required to consider the society and the environment in addition to profit. Correct?Ashley Grosh: [00:10:31] That's right. So it's that triple bottom line that we hear about where we want to see an environmental return, a social return and then a financial return. Right. So we're looking at the triple bottom line and we screen for other companies and partners to be a part of our ecosystem. You've also got to have those same values. Air BnB is a partner of ours. Again, that's a circular economy. The shared economy. I can convert my pip's to a gift card for AirBnb. You know, we provide gift cards to Wholefoods, which is technically Amazon's the parent company, but Wholefoods is still a wonderful partner of ours and we'd like to see Amazon learn more about our platform and figure out other ways to partner with us and then offer maybe even further discounts. Could we also work with Amazon on other features, you know, other sustainable products? That's a huge area of opportunity for us. So I think Amazon, you know, will continue to have those conversations through the door of working with Whole Foods. You know, we're selectively screened for green companies. And so Panera is one that we just added, Chipotle,right, that are thoughtful about their supply chain. We love to really promote local. So when we come onto a campus, we also will go around to all the local vendors. In Boulder, for example, our flagship university, CU Boulder, there is a store called Refill Revolution where you can fill up bulk laundry detergent, lotion, shampoo, conditioner, things like that. And so they're a partner of ours. They accept our currency as well as you earn. So there are certain sort of a dual partner. But we love to go locally and find partners like that in the community, local stores. And we haven't had anybody turn us away yet in wanting to be a part of the program.Lisa Kiefer: [00:12:10] Where are you happening? You say you're focusing on universities.Ashley Grosh: [00:12:14] CU Boulder, as I mentioned, was our early adopter. They are our flagship university, Univeristy of Colorado Boulder and very similar, a sister campus, I would say, to Berkeley. But so CU is really interested in this technology. When they learned about it really from two aspects from a retention standpoint and from a sustainability standpoint. So they want to be leaders in promoting sustainable actions on campus. They want to measure that. They want to put that into their climate action planning. They really want to better understand that the footprint they're having in the city and then retention, retention is probably the number one buzz word on campuses. Right. If you don't get students to stay engaged and to graduate the four, five plus years, you're leaving big money on the table. There's a lot of reasons why students come to campus and they don't continue. And partly it's the cost. Partly it's food insecurity and then it's mental stress and it's not finding friends. And so those are some of the top reasons that we've we've studied a lot of surveys around retention data. And so our thought is, if we can help with food insecurity. Right. We're helping to offset and subsidize the cost of healthy food by providing more access and more funding to food, healthy food choices, transportation costs. We can help to offset that. Financial aid. Right. If we're now starting to contribute in, you know, a couple thousand dollars per semester that a student could earn. Now, it doesn't seem so overwhelming, the burden of debt and then mental health. We also have mindfulness trainings. We also have financial literacy that we can do through the app and then we make it fun. You can gamify it..Lisa Kiefer: [00:13:44] So you get points for taking care of yourself.Ashley Grosh: [00:13:46] Yeah.Lisa Kiefer: [00:13:46] So how long have you been doing Boulder?Ashley Grosh: [00:13:48] We started a pilot there in the fall of 2017. That was our pilot year. And then we took the outcomes. We targeted just freshman that year and we took all the results back to the university and they really saw the opportunity to scale this. So they in 2018 signed a three year contract with us. And so we're now in that contract. We've we keep adding to it. We're constantly measuring, really working on the user adoption and then adding new actions, adding new partners, building the ecosystem.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:17] So it's actually working there and it's successful.Ashley Grosh: [00:14:19] Yes, we've got about 5000 users on the platform. We initially set out to get about 10 percent of the student body and now we've exceeded that. Now we've added staff and faculty onto the platform. And what's cool about that is the staff or faculty can donate their pip's to individual student or to the Pip's Education Fund. It's really booming over there. And it's we now just launch refer a friend feature. So if you bring a friend onto the platform, you're rewarded. The origin of this is really around behavior, you know, neuroscience kind of the way that we act. Dopamine, the way that we're engaged, incented. And we know that rewards work. We know that gamification works. And so. We gamify, we do a lot of contests where you can count constantly be earning. And then we make it really fun with our prizes. We also have ski passes. That's what makes us different if you think about the value of these rewards. You know, you're getting food, you're getting Patagonia gear. You're getting tuition. Ski passes.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:15] And it's not interfering with academic study.Ashley Grosh: [00:15:18] It's actually aiding in helping them with basic needs support.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:22] What were some of the challenges that, what were your biggest challenges?Ashley Grosh: [00:15:25] There's a lot of different parts of campus that you want to engage. So you want to engage housing and dining, you know, Office of Financial Aid, the communications group, because you want to message this out in any way you can. So you really got to work and integrate with the communications teams on campus. Hey, how can we get included in newsletters? Where can we get some signage? So it really is a collaboration I think, when you're first setting it up, the messaging, how do we fit into the brand in the brand voice on campus? And so it takes, you know, a couple of of different groups to come together on campus.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:58] Campuses are noisy with groups.Ashley Grosh: [00:16:00] That's right.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:01] There's a lot going.Ashley Grosh: [00:16:02] That's that's exactly right. So there's clubs every which way. There's a lot of competing interest. That's why the refer a friend. Right. We know that things get sticky when other people talk about it. So if I'm a student and I have my phone out and I'm doing something. It seems like. What are you doing? Oh, well, I'm doing this cool app where I can earn currency and I can pay my tuition. tuition.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:19] How did you get the word out initially?Ashley Grosh: [00:16:22] The strategy that we used at Boulder was to integrate it into welcome week. And so as students are coming to campus, even before they came to campus, we had a welcome letter that went to the parents and the students. Download this app before you come to campus. And then when you come to campus, we set up a scavenger hunt so that students could really learn, hey, here's the library, here's the dining hall, here's the rec center. And they used our app to go through this scavenger hunt. And then they got Pip's at every place they went. And so we got really clever about welcome week. All the students filed into the football stadium and we got a big P.A. message, hey, have you heard about the Pip's app? And we got thousands of downloads in a matter of a week. And so that, you know, integrating into welcome week, but otherwise you can do it into other events on campus. So there's lots of different ways. But the welcome week one is is really a trick of ours.Lisa Kiefer: [00:17:14] Where are your other applications happening?Ashley Grosh: [00:17:14] Yeah, we're pretty early in our journey. So CU was the early adopter. But now we like to take a systems approach. So we're looking at the University of Colorado system. So we've launched to their second largest campus, which is in Colorado Springs. And then we're looking to roll out at U.C. Denver. And so that would capture the entire system so we're at two of those system wide campuses now and then we've got proposals really throughout the country into large university systems. And so really looking at a systems approach in different parts of the country, but also within Colorado, we've got a handful of other universities coming on in 2020 to help us regionally gain some traction, gain some visibility, get some of the regional transit partners on board, getting a ubiquitous feel to the currency across higher ed in one state, and then we can go regionally and plug and play. But what's really great is we're getting all of these in-bounds now. So people, sustainability officers are talking about this. You know, Forbes did an article on us, hey, turn your actions into tuition money. There's a lot of talk right now around basic needs support, food insecurity. Just this week, I talked to somebody at University of Miami that said, hey, we're on the frontlines of climate change. Our students and our staff and community need to be doing everything we can. Can you please come here and help us? And so that's what's really starting to get exciting is is the inbound buzz that we're getting. So I think we'll continue to really lead in Colorado, but then you'll start to see us regionally as we head into 2020.Lisa Kiefer: [00:18:41] And California is on your map?Ashley Grosh: [00:18:43] California is... all things lead back to California in some ways, just from the leadership standpoint that California has taken, in so many measures. And so, you know, we really would love to be out in California. There's a lot we could do. And even in the UC system, you could imagine two of the two or three or handful, the universities competing. Right. Who could draw down the most carbon. So we have a carbon drawdown challenge. And so that becomes really fun, right? In the storytelling there. We can also integrate into athletics. So we could have a green game, you know, through the PAC Twelve and do some fun things there. But really getting a system on board is a significant goal. And where we're spending a lot of our focus right now, talking to the UC system, talking to the California state system, the community college system, too, if we think about some rural places, Bakersfield and others, you know, how can we promote alternative transportation, how can we promote some of these healthy behaviors in more rural communities?Lisa Kiefer: [00:19:37] You're giving currency back to people, social currency. But how are you as a company making money off of this?Ashley Grosh: [00:19:44] Great question. So I'm a trained banker and I spent my whole career working on businesses, scaling technologies, looking at business models, a program I actually in my former role worked with here on campus at Berkeley is the Clean Tech to Market program, the C-2M Program with Brian Steele and Beverly Alexander, I have to give them a shout out. But really looking at right, how do you take an innovative technology platform and scale it? And so we make revenue in a couple of different ways. So it's a subscription model. So first and foremost, the university pays us a subscription to have the Pip's Rewards platform deployed on campus that unlocks the pool of pips then that we divvy out. But then we also have action partners that pay to join our programs. So that could be ridesharing companies, companies like Zipcar, Car2Go, you know, Lyft and Uber really want to dominate the university place. We've got proposals into both of them. If I come to the university and I pick a ridesharing company, when I leave the university, I'm probably going to use that one. Bike sharing platforms pay to be on our platform. So that's another source of revenue. Within our catalog, our E commerce catalogue, our affiliate catalog, we also earn a small commission. If somebody uses their pip's to buy something, we may have a commission that comes back to us. And then sponsorship is another source of revenue. And this is when I really get excited about too. So I mentioned, Chipotle and some other partners that are on the platform. But thinking about large corporate brands. Right, that spend so much money on marketing, if they have a really strong CSR, corporate social responsibility mission, an initiative, you know, their brands are really working hard across communities to promote sustainability, promote maybe their products. So we really see sponsorship in underwriting as an opportunity. A beverage company, for example, could come in and underwrite the recycling behaviors on our platform. As we know in most California campuses that have divested from plastic. But that takes a little bit of behavior change to think about. What are the alternative sources? CU Boulder just rolled out some new aluminum type refillable cans for their stadiums or cups, I should say. But there's some behavior change that has to happen there so we can use our app to educate. But brands that really want to be associated with an app like ours, we're in front of young people, we're in front of their customers. Sponsorship is it is a big opportunity for us to go and work with large corporate and small corporate brands.Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:01] Tell me how this idea even got started.Ashley Grosh: [00:22:04] So Wendy Gordon is our co-founder. There's several co-founders. And so Wendy has a fascinating history. She's a serial entrepreneur and she's always tackled this riddle of how do we change the behavior? How do we get consumers, you know, to think about smarter products, to think about their footprint? She launched and co-founded Mothers and Others for a Livable Planet with Meryl Streep, which was the original green guide, and that ended up being acquired by National Geographic. And then Wendy was an environmentalist at the National Resource Defense Council, NRDC. And so she's got a really fascinating background all around, you know, sustainability, the sciences in consumer. And so, Wendy, you know, really thought how could we think about rewards points? So if we look at traditional credit card, frequent flyer miles, they sound really good on the surface, but the redemption rates of those are very low. And so, Wendy and one of her college classmates, David Sands, got together. They went to Princeton. And they've kind of been thinking about this riddle of how do we how do we get people to do things, right? It's through incentives and rewards. So they came up with this initial idea and then they were introduced to two developers. So technical folks, Evan and Ynev and Ynev actually has a neuroscience background. And he ran a dopamine lab. So he started bringing in the science and started to look at loss aversion and all these different, you know, scientific ways of the way that we interact in the way that we're, you know, incentivized and what works and what does it what keeps us coming back, what makes things sticky. That's why we bring in gamification. So you had the business side that, you know, Wendy and David were building and then you had the technical side and Evan and Ynev said, think about all the wearables, the wearable market, Fitbit, if you think about the connected economy, that there's so many things that we could plug into. If we build an open source platform with API, we can connect into all these tracking devices and start to verify the actions. We don't want to see greenwashing. We don't want to say, I pledge to do this or I pledge to do that. We really want to verify that you took an action. So the company got formed and then really started to think about where could this application where's the best use case? They tested it in a new enterprise locations, some real estate firms doing fitness competitions and things like that. But then really it was CU Boulder that said, you know, we think this is a higher ed solution. So spend a couple of years.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:24] So they came to you? Ashley Grosh: [00:24:25] Yeah. Yeah. Sue Boulder came to Wendy and said, you know, we really think this is best served in the higher ed space. And so they completely pivoted and decided to focus all the actions, all the technical side on Boulder and in really targeting higher, higher institutions, higher ed.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:44] What are some of your future plans?Ashley Grosh: [00:24:46] So longer term, I think there is absolutely an enterprise solution here. So that's an employee engagement platform. Again, retention is another key issue we know with employers. And so if you could. Offer meaningful rewards for employees. You know, Google we've talked to, they have a problem with transportation. They have too many people driving single occupancy vehicles or this is a case of a lot of employers, right. So how can you change the behavior and get them to carpool or get them to ride the bus system? And then how do you incentivize them to do that? So you could use our rewards platform to do that. And we have proposals into some other large corporates that, you know, see it as a benefit from a fun currency. But if they need to change behavior.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:26] So are you reaching out to cities, city governments?Ashley Grosh: [00:25:29] We have proposals into municipalities as well. You know, a lot of the team members within municipalities, they want them to be riding buses, going to certain events. And so it's a similar program that you would do at higher ed, but you would change the actions based on what that individual employer municipality would want to do. And then you you can customize the rewards. One day, what if you just had the city of Berkeley and that included the campus and that included and that's actually the goal is to get it to be a ubiquitous currency. So I think to get there right, you've got to start traction and so you start traction among the universities. But then that can lead over into the cities and they adopt it. And then you're right, it just becomes, you know, a taxpayer benefit. So we also have a carbon footprint calculator. And so I can see.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:13] Where's that?Ashley Grosh: [00:26:14] In the app.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:15] In the app.Ashley Grosh: [00:26:15] And it's individualized. So I can see my individual footprint and then I can see my community's footprint. And I can see, you know what? We are making an impact. And so then it doesn't seem so daunting. Right. And I'm doing my part. The other thing is we're building environmental stewards in higher education. We have stories about this, case studies, students that have graduated from C.U. that were on our platform. They've moved to big cities. And their first inclination is to not get into a car or buy a car. They're used to doing public transportation. So Pip's has really led them to those behaviors. And so then they go on and carry them forward.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:53] Do you have competition in this space?Ashley Grosh: [00:26:54] So that's a great question, right? You always want to know kind of who's in the rear view mirror or off to the side. And we haven't come across anybody that's doing exactly what we're doing in the way that we're doing it. And especially from the technology integration, the verification and the scholarship component and the matching. Right. That's really unique. There are a couple other pledge based systems, pledging that you rode the bus or pledging to do a Meatless Monday or something like that. And then they don't have a reward platform. So they might say you get a gold star or or.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:27] You don't get any monetary.Ashley Grosh: [00:27:29] Right. You might get a badge. They call it. And then two students have five badges and they get eligible for a pizza party or, you know, something. So they don't have the high value rewards into the system, which we know are the drivers to get students to stay on this. And then they don't have all the other bells and whistles that, you know, carbon footprint calculators and all those things, verified actions and the currency. Right. The currency component with the scholarship piece. So that's really what we believe sets us apart. I really think we're on the cutting edge, because if you look at 5G, right. That's getting rolled out. Things are gonna be happening a lot faster, more devices. I'm seeing more wired, you know, clothing and wearable rings that that track your your health metrics and send them to your doctor in real time. So, you know, 5G is really going to enable us to do more of this. And so we're, you know, at the forefront of that. And we're really excited about being able to plug in to the new wearables and the new companies that are coming into the space.Lisa Kiefer: [00:28:30] Tell our listeners how to get your website and what they can expect to find there.Ashley Grosh: [00:28:34] Yeah. So if you go to www.pipsrewards.com and then you won't want to sign in because you're not a user... yet. There's some graphics you can start to see our story. You can get a list of all of our partners. As we mentioned some of them on the show today. The earn, redeem, the donate, the nonprofits that we also support that you can donate to, and then you can reach us that suppor@pipsrewards.com. If you want to learn more or bring this to your campus or if you have any other questions or ideas, we're always open to discussions.Lisa Kiefer: [00:29:09] Are you looking for volunteers or interns at any point?Ashley Grosh: [00:29:11] We are. So we we have two interns right now and we are growing like crazy. So for folks that are interested, reach out to us. You know, the reason this is so important to me, you know, I've worked in climate and sustainability almost my entire career, but I'm a mom and I also spend a lot of time on college campuses. And I think about these students and I think about my own kids and how successful I want them to be, and any boost that we can give them, any head start, if we can help them chip away at their debt sooner, if we can help them really have healthy behaviors and habits, we're going to better equip them when they head out into the into the big, real scary world. Your actions can make a difference and added up together, they can have a really big impact. You know, that's what we want to do. Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:01] Thank you, Ashley, for coming on Method to the Madness.Ashley Grosh: [00:30:04] Thank you.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:06] You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K.A.L.X. Berkeley celebrating innovators. We'll be back again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

TranscriptLisa Kiefer: [00:00:01] You're listening to Method to the Madness. A biweekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:12] I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today, I'm speaking with Mohamed Shehk, co-director and media and communications director of Critical Resources. Welcome to Method to the Madness.Mohamed Shehk: [00:00:28] Thank you for having me.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:29] I've been hearing a whole lot with the upcoming presidential election and all the debates, about prison reform. I find it kind of interesting that for the past over 20 years, your organization has said "forget reform, we need to abolish prisons."Mohamed Shehk: [00:00:43] Yes. Critical Resistance was founded in 1998. It was founded in Berkeley. There was a conference called Critical Resistance Beyond the Prison Industrial Complex.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:53] Yes. And you had a lot of heavy hitters, Angela Davis.Mohamed Shehk: [00:00:55] Angela Davis was one of our co-founders,.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:57] And, Ruth Wilson Gilmore!Mohamed Shehk: [00:00:59] And we're actually doing an event with Ruthie down in L.A.. Yeah. So we began using a term that was actually coined by Mike Davis, the prison industrial complex. And it was a way to begin thinking about the interrelated systems of imprisonment, policing, surveillance and other forms of state violence and control. Really looking at this system as being built intentionally to control, repress and inflict harm and violence in communities. So if we understand that its purpose is to control communities, then we don't want to fix it. Right. We want to chip away at its power. We want to abolish it. So we really popularized the notion of prison industrial complex abolition. And for the past 20 years, we've been working on various projects and campaigns toward eliminating the prison industrial complex in our society.Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:51] So of all the candidates, who do you think is most onboard or at least understanding of what your strategy is toward prisons?Mohamed Shehk: [00:02:00] It's really interesting with the current presidential candidates that have approached criminal justice reform in a variety of ways. I mean, you just had Bernie Sanders release a platform that actually picks up a lot of some of the concepts and community based approaches rather than continuing to invest and waste millions and millions and millions of dollars into the system of policing, into imprisonment. What are the reforms that appear to be liberal or progressive but are actually entrenching the system?Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:36] Right. They're kind of co-opting.Mohamed Shehk: [00:02:37] Yeah. After the death of Mike Brown and Eric Garner back in 2014 with the, you know, upsurge of Black Lives Matter and the enormous amount of attention being focused on policing, and you had an array of reforms being discussed, such as body cameras, such as, more training for police officers. And we see that these kinds of reforms are actually pouring money into the system of policing. They're expanding the role of policing. We're giving surveillance technology to policing. Right. So these reforms aren't actually chipping away at the power, but actually legitimizing and entrenching the system of policing itself. So these are the kinds of reforms that we want to be cautious of and use this framework of thinking about abolitionist reforms vs. reformist reforms. What are the reforms that are actually cutting away resources from the systems that we're fighting rather than continuing to waste investments into these systems.Lisa Kiefer: [00:03:36] And so what are some of the strategies that you are using in your organization? And you're located in four cities. You're headquartered in Oakland in the Temescal. You're in New York City, L.A. and Portland.Mohamed Shehk: [00:03:48] Yes. Our national office is based in Oakland. We are a nonprofit organization and we function primarily through our chapters and our chapters, the ones that you named, our volunteer members really make up the bulk of the organization and we work with them and they decide what local projects and campaigns are most relevant to the political geography that they're operating in, to attack the prison industrial complex. So, for instance, in Portland, we started a campaign called Care Not Cops. Initially, that campaign was really focused on cutting policing away from mental health crisis response. We want to divest resources away from policing, take money away from the police budget and put that into community based and user determined mental health resources. One strategy is to really focus on the city budget and to use that as a method to organize communities and to say these are actually where we want our resources going, not continuing to go into the Police Bureau's budget. We use a variety of different strategies and tactics, so we do a lot of media and communications work to kind of shift how we understand safety, how we understand what strong and healthy communities actually look like. We do a lot of work around the legislative realm. We work with decision makers and also put pressure on decision makers to put forth policies that are actually in line with what we're advocating for.Lisa Kiefer: [00:05:28] So let's talk about what you're doing in the Bay Area... Urban Shield, for one thing. Can you talk about that a little bit and some of the other successes you've had locally?Mohamed Shehk: [00:05:36] Yeah. Thank you for raising that. Critical Re sistance along with a number of other organizations, including the Arab Resource and Organizing Center, Chicano Moratorium Coalition, the American Friends Service Committee. We're part of a coalition called the Stop Urban Shield Coalition. And we came together to put an end to Urban Shield, which was the world's largest SWAT training, and also included a weapons expo. That organizing happened for five plus years. We built a grassroots campaign to essentially pressure and empower the Board of supervisors in Alameda County to say to the sheriff, no, we do not want this kind of program anymore. Urban Shield was justified under the guise of emergency preparedness. Right. And so the sheriff would say, well, we need this kind of program because of all these different kinds of emergencies. But obviously, just as with many programs that came after 9/11, it was funded through and bolstered by the logic of militarization and counter-terrorism and was effectively a program that endorsed war on black and brown communities. So last year, the Board of Supervisors made a decision to end Urban Shield. They said after this year, Urban Shield is no longer. Then this year, a gain, after some kind of foul play by the sheriff to attempt to kind of reverse their decision and even just ignore that it actually happened. Earlier this year, they reaffirmed their decision and Urban Shield was effectively defunded.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:08] Does that money then go to the programs that you are backing?Mohamed Shehk: [00:07:12] Yes. So we have been working alongside various city and county agencies to really put in place what emergency preparedness and disaster response looks like. So one of the things that we did with the Alameda County Board of Supervisors is part of their decision to end Urban Shield was to put together a task force to say, okay, let's actually look at how this money could be funded. And they adopted a number of recommendations, which was about 60 recommendations that called for things like no more SWAT centered scenarios. You know, we want inclusive programs and transparency that include community members in the planning and the implementation. And so these recommendations were adopted. We also took them to San Francisco because San Francisco is the fiscal agent of this money that's coming from the federal government. And they also looked and adopted many of the recommendations. And so for what comes next, we are hopeful that it really embodies the kind of program, the kind of framing that we were after.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:23] Can you tell me also about the project called Oakland Power Projects?Mohamed Shehk: [00:08:27] So there was a coalition, the Stop the Injunctions Coalition, that put an end to gang injunctions in Oakland. It was the first instance of a city in the United States ending gang injunctions as a result of grassroots mobilization and pressure. And so after that, we said, OK, we ended gang injunctions. This is tremendous. What do we want to do next? So we started surveying and interviewing Oakland community members around things like what does safety look like to you? Do you have instances where you feel like you need to call the cops? What kind of investments do you want to see in your community? And so we compiled all of these interviews. We started picking through them and found a common theme which was around health related emergencies and people saying, when these emergencies happen, I don't want to call the cops, but they're the only options that I have.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:19] Give me an example of something like that.Mohamed Shehk: [00:09:21] So it could be someone gets in a car accident. Someone is having a or experience as someone else, having a mental health crisis or someone just badly cuts themselves or injured themselves. They have to call 9 1 1. And in many instances, the police show up and either don't really help in what's often the case or exacerbate the situation.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:45] By criminalizing it.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:46] Exactly. What we did is we got together a number of health workers from counselors to kind of traditional like EMT as doctors, nurses, acupuncturists, the whole range, right? Street medics and we said, okay, now we want you to come up with different resources and come up with a number of different workshops that you can provide to communities on knowing your options when situations occur. They did exactly that and it was really powerful. They came up with three different tracks. One was acute emergencies. Another was mental health and behavioral crises. And another one was chronic illnesses and also tied in opiate overdoses. And so we began to offer these workshops to different community organizations, to places of business, to community groups, neighborhoods. And the workshops are really geared toward ending our reliance on policing by building up our know how and our capacity to be able to respond to situations in our communities.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:54] You must've gotten a lot of resistance because it sounds very radical when you say abolish prison.Mohamed Shehk: [00:10:59] We really want to understand the root causes of harm and violence. Right. Because oftentimes what the status quo has been is that when something happens, we're reactive and we respond. And oftentimes what that looks like is targeting black and brown people and putting them in cages. So if we really are to want to address harm and violence in our communities, social injustices, we have to understand the root causes. And we have to begin to see how we can transform the underlying conditions that gave rise to harm and violence in the first place. When we say prison industrial complex and when we say prison industrial complex abolition, we know full well that just taking the prisons away from society is not going to be the end of the game. Right. We have to understand that prisons don't exist in a vacuum. Policing does not exist in a vacuum. That we're gonna have to also look at the ways that different dynamics in society are integral to the prison industrial complex. And so changing social conditions and transforming the ways that we relate to each other is fundamental to understanding and achieving abolition.Lisa Kiefer: [00:12:21] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, I'm speaking with Mohammed Scheck, the media and communications director of Critical Resistance.Lisa Kiefer: [00:12:43] And you've been successful. You're stopping a prison from being built locally here in San Francisco, is that correct?Mohamed Shehk: [00:12:49] Yeah. So one of our one of our campaigns here in the Bay Area is the No New S.F. Jail Coalition. What that essentially is, is the sheriff back in 2013 or so or even a little bit before, but that's when the coalition really came together. The sheriff wanted to build a replacement jail to one that already exists at 850 Bryant Street, which is known as the Hall of Justice in San Francisco. The interesting thing about the Hall of Justice is that nearly all of San Francisco, it's it's unanimous that that building needs to be torn down because it's seismically unsafe, it's decrepit, it's falling apart. And the sheriff wanted to build a replacement saying that that was his only option. What we did was we formed a coalition with a number of other organizations and effectively put a halt to that plan. So in 2015, we got the supervisors to vote unanimously and say we don't want to build a new jail. We actually want to look at alternatives. We want to look at ways to reduce the jail population while building up resources and looking at investments that actually support people coming back home and can support communities in need where we don't have to respond by criminalizing.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:08] So you guys are active participants in this new solution?Mohamed Shehk: [00:14:12] Yes, absolutely. And so right now, our effort is to actually close the jail at 850 Bryant Street. That's that's kind of the main thrust that we're working on right now. We do have one supervisor who has stepped up and is willing to put forward legislation toward shutting the jail this year. What we're looking at is opposing different kinds of reforms and different proposals that would actually legitimize other forms of punishment as a response. So like they'll say, OK, we're going to close this jail, let's put everyone on electronic monitoring and we're like, no, we don't want to expand surveillance. We don't want to expand the jail beyond its reach, which is essentially what electronic monitor shackles are. We don't want to move people to Alameda County, to Santa Rita jail. We want people to remain close to their families, close to their communities. And we don't want to reopen new jails or reopen old jails and refurbish them. So it really is about looking at what are the resources that we can build, what already exists, and then what do we need to build up around. Housing is a big one. I mean, you have nearly 30 percent of the jail population that was house less before they were arrested and booked. You have enormous racial disparities in the jail population in San Francisco,.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:34] And in the nation.[00:15:36] Yeah, but I was going to say even more so than the rates that we see across the country where the city of San Francisco has about a 4 percent black population that is on the decline and black people make up 80 percent of the jail population. So you look at that enormous disparity and say what's really going on wrong? Right? What is, what's wrong? You have a significant number of people that face mental health issues and substance abuse. Just looking at these numbers, we can easily begin to say a new jail is not necessary. We do not need to be locking these people up. We can easily be thinking about other kinds of investments that would actually strengthen communities and make new jails obsolete.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:16] Tell me how you're getting funding for these programs, because they sound like they might be pretty expensive.Mohamed Shehk: [00:16:22] We do fund raising. We are actually fortunate to be majority grassroots funded. So about 65 percent of our of our funding comes from people, you know, donating monthly, giving us onetime gifts. We hold events, you know, fundraising benefits. In terms of the funding for the programs, were advocating for those to be taken away from the police, sheriffs, other agencies that are about criminalization. And we want to divert funding away from them into the resources that we want and need.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:57] Have you seen an upsurge in interest over the 20 years that you guys have been working hard at this? It seems like there's more of an opening now.Mohamed Shehk: [00:17:05] We definitely have seen a tremendous upsurge in the popularity and interest in just in the concept of abolition. Right. What we've done and other community members, other organizations have done is to really make this concept common sense. Because you mentioned earlier that, you know, this can be kind of a scary radical concept for people. One of the things that we really do is to show how practical it is. We show the the way that abolition can be worked on, can be practiced on a day to day level.Lisa Kiefer: [00:17:38] How did you personally get involved with Critical Resistance. How long have you been there?Mohamed Shehk: [00:17:44] I've been involved in Critical Resistance for just over five years now. The way that I came to Critical Resistance was really beginning to recognize the role of policing and imprisonment in this country. My background as a Palestinian, as someone who has long been involved in organizing and in different activism around Palestine, solidarity, began to really look at what are the intersections between what's happening there and what we're experiencing here. When you see that the state of Israel imprisons such a significant portion of the Palestinian population, the aid that they get from the U.S. government in order to do so, that helps them and and allows them to do so. And then the ways that Israel really practices its tools of repression on the Palestinian population. So for many that follow this issue closely, you might know that Gaza is essentially a laboratory experiment for the state of Israel to test different tools, tactics, technologies, and then they export those technologies to governments all around the world by billing them as battlefield tested.Lisa Kiefer: [00:19:03] And I assume we are one of the recipients?Mohamed Shehk: [00:19:05] Absolutely.Mohamed Shehk: [00:19:06] And that's kind of what we get back for our military aid that we provide. When you look at this, the interconnections between policing and imprisonment there and in other places with the systems here, you begin to see that they're playing a fundamental role in whatever issue that you work on, whether that be environmental justice, whether that be public education, climate change, women's rights, LGBTQ rights and liberation, the prison industrial complex is tied to all of those issues. The prison industrial complex is fundamentally patriarchal. It's fundamentally toxic to the environment. It's fundamentally why we have such a disinvestment from public education. Right. Because of how many how much resources are being squandered on this enormous system. That for me, became very central in the kind of activism and organizing that I wanted to do.Lisa Kiefer: [00:20:02] Are you also working inside prisons?Mohamed Shehk: [00:20:05] Yes. So our Oakland chapter has a inside, outside working group. Their primary drive is to communicate with people on the inside and to share resources on how to support organizing that's happening. We also do a lot of work in communicating with people on the inside to help inform the work that we're doing out here. We have a reading group that we do where we read articles from a newspaper that we published with people on the inside and then share and give reflections and circulate those. We publish a newspaper called the Abolitionists that goes to now over 7500 people in prisons, jails and detention centers across the country. Much of that content is actually composed and written by people that are currently or formerly imprisoned.Lisa Kiefer: [00:20:55] How about education programs inside?Mohamed Shehk: [00:20:58] We don't do education programs like formally, although we do share a lot of educational resources and organizing resources with folks on the inside. One of the main campaigns that we supported is the California Prisoner Hunger Strikes that happened. And so this was an effort that was organized by and led by people that were in prison in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay State Prison. They had a list of demands and they initiated a hunger strike effectively aimed at ending solitary confinement, improving conditions, getting rights, ending discriminatory and criminalization policies. That hunger strike in 2013 reached over 30000 people in California prisons that joined in solidarity.Lisa Kiefer: [00:21:45] And what was the outcome?Mohamed Shehk: [00:21:46] That had a huge impact. It gained national and international attention and drew widespread condemnation on the practice of solitary, of locking someone up in a windowless cell for 23 hours a day. Because of that attention, the United Nations rapporteur on torture said that solitary confinement is a form of torture. The California legislature held a number of hearings on the use of solitary confinement. Mow in the midst of this happening, there was also a lawsuit that was initially brought by the prisoners themselves and then was taken up against the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, CDCR. That was then taken up by a number of lawyers and legal organizations, including the Center for Constitutional Rights and that lawsuit in 2015 ended in a settlement by which the prisoners achieved a tremendous victory and effectively ended indefinite solitary sentences, which a lot of the prisoners were being held for five, 10, 15, 20 years in solitary confinement and were were put in indefinitely. It also greatly reduced and restricted the rationale by which someone could be placed in solitary confinement. Yeah, so we supported that as part of a coalition, the prisoner hunger strike solidarity coalition and Critical Resistance specifically kind of played the media house for the campaign.Lisa Kiefer: [00:23:25] I recently read about your new headquarters location in the Temescal, which used to be Baby World, and it's such an interesting story. Would you mind sharing that?Mohamed Shehk: [00:23:35] Yeah, we had already been talking about needing to find a new location because the place that we're currently at, which is in downtown Oakland, the rents have been rising exponentially. And so we said to ourselves, we really have to start looking. This is just unsustainable. During the same time, some of us, you know, just through kind of personal and political connections, were having conversations with with other folks and the family that owned the building, the Cabello family, we had conversations with their daughter, Danya Cabello, and realized that this building was for sale. When we found that out, we jumped onto the opportunity and reached out to a loyal donor, Rachel Gilman, who is part of an organization called Resource Generation, which is essentially an organization that seeks to bring in people with wealth in order to redistribute their wealth to social justice causes. In talking with Rachel, we kind of put that on the table and just had kind of a frank conversation. This is what we're thinking. What do you think? And she loved the idea.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:43] She's only twenty nine.Mohamed Shehk: [00:24:44] Yeah.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:45] She said herself that she thinks of giving as a "way to help up end the forces of capitalism, patriarchy, and white supremacy that underlie her very own inheritance." And she said, "I believe ending this economic system that creates such drastic wealth inequality is necessary for all people's humanity and dignity, including my own and that of my family." I think this is revolutionary.Mohamed Shehk: [00:25:10] Yeah. Absolutely. And it's a beautiful space. We're in the process now of renovating the building to serve community organizations that are operating in the Bay Area. We want it to be a hub for social and racial justice organizing of all stripes. We want it to be a place where organizations and communities that are fighting to resist gentrification can have a place to hold their meetings, to have events, fundraisers. So we really want it to serve the community and to really pay homage to the legacy of organizing in Oakland.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:46] And it's kind of interesting because the owners, the Cabello's, their family had suffered under Pinochet in Chile. So they there was just all this serendipity that happened between you and them.Mohamed Shehk: [00:25:57] Yeah. No, absolutely. They come from a very kind of rough political history and also are very much tied to resistance movements. Right? So they were part of the first suit against basically the horrors of the Pinochet regime, the School of the Americas, and the role that the U.S. played in supporting the horrors of Pinochet.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:21] I did want to ask you what your greatest challenge has been in the time that you've been in this organization.Mohamed Shehk: [00:26:28] One of the greatest challenges that we face today is the way that the prison industrial complex is shifting, how much technological innovation is going on, the ways that technological innovation is being integrated into the prison industrial complex to expand its reach. Now, this can be like the physical tools and technologies that are developed or something that isn't so tangible, but it's just as dangerous, such as predictive policing or risk assessment algorithms. These are, in a way kind of taking away the the human element, so to speak, and putting in place algorithms and technologies that are actually serving to criminalize people in an automated fashion. It's a very scary concept to think about. We really need to resist attempts to say that we're going to make the prison industrial complex better by removing the bias of humans, by introducing technology. The society that we live in is built on racial oppression, gender oppression, oppression against sex. And so technologies are not going to solve that. We have to actually begin to transform those dynamics, eradicate systems of oppression if we want to achieve liberation.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:50] What's coming up for your organization?Mohamed Shehk: [00:27:52] As I mentioned, we are working on the NO NEW SF Jail effort to close 850 Bryant Street. Be on the lookout. Join our mailing list, visit our web site, sign up, because we'll be putting out information on how folks can can really plug into that fight and and close the jail. For folks in Los Angeles, we're gonna have an amazing event. Ruth Wilson Gilmore, who's an amazing, inspiring, brilliant scholar, is going to be speaking. This comes after a huge victory where we, along with the Justice L.A. Coalition, stopped L.A. County from building a, quote unquote, mental health jail. That was an enormous victory. You've been fighting jails in Los Angeles for 10 years. And we wanted to celebrate and bring our communities together. We really just encourage folks to check us out.Lisa Kiefer: [00:28:40] What is your web site?Mohamed Shehk: [00:28:41] criticalresistance.orgLisa Kiefer: [00:28:43] And can people volunteer in your organization?Mohamed Shehk: [00:28:45] Absolutely. Our Oakland chapter holds volunteer nights every Tuesday from 6 to 9 p.m. And that's in our current office. Not the not the new building, 1904 Franklin Street, Suite 5 0 4. And so come through, volunteer. We find ourselves in a very trying political moment. You know, the current presidential administration is unrelentless and attacks that it's waging on our communities, blatant racism and sexism and xenophobia that has come from this administration. We also have seen the ways that communities are resilient and resistant.Mohamed Shehk: [00:29:24] You saw the massive energy into opposition to shut down airports in response to the Muslim ban. We see opposition from ICE raids. We also want to resist the tendency or maybe even the appeal to want to go back to how things were, because there were a lot of things wrong and violent and racist in the policies in former administrations. Rather than shy away in this political moment, actually to raise up radical ideas like abolition as the tools, as the strategies that are actually going to get us to where we want to be, to a society where we truly have equity, self-determination and freedom.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:10] That's a nice, positive way to end this. Thank you, Mohamed, for coming in.Mohamed Shehk: [00:30:15] Thank you.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:16] You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. We'll be back again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Method to the Madness host Lisa Kiefer speaks with CALSTAR Yoga program faculty Saraswathi Devi and Claire Lavery about their innovative adaptive yoga class on the UC Berkeley campus that teaches students how to help members of the public with disabilities.TranscriptLisa Kiefer: [00:00:27] You're listening to Method to the Madness. A bi weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today, I'm speaking with faculty members of CalStar Yoga, a program that helps people with disabilities practice yoga.Claire Lavery: [00:00:51] I'm Claire Lavery.Saraswathi Devi: [00:00:53] And I'm Saraswathi Devi.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:54] Welcome to the program. And you're both on the faculty of Cal Yoga.Saraswathi Devi: [00:00:58] I guess you could put it that way.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:59] OK. Well, why don't you tell us about your program?Saraswathi Devi: [00:01:02] Well, we call it CalStar Yoga and at their recreational sports facility, the RSF, there is a little program called CalStar, which serves people who live with different kinds of disabilities and it's open to the public. So our part of that is an adaptive yoga class.Claire Lavery: [00:01:19] The class has been going on since 1996,.Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:22] Since 1996. Is it for just students or.Claire Lavery: [00:01:26] It's open to anyone with a disability in the community or in on campus, on staff, on faculty and any member of the gym or outside the community?, campus community can also join?Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:39] I thought it might be useful for our listeners to know how you define yoga and how you define disabilities.Saraswathi Devi: [00:01:47] Yoga is an ancient practice and it's a lot about body and mind health. It comes from an ancient root, yog, meaning to join. So it's all about balance of body and mind and the quiet aspects of the self and the more assertive aspects of the self. It has a lot to do with exercise, which is how most people in America know it. But it also has to do with mind training, with making your intellect more sharp and your emotions more clear and peaceful. And some people pursue it as a spiritual practice as well.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:22] And could you define disabilities for this class?Claire Lavery: [00:02:25] We define it as someone who is living with some kind of an ongoing condition that limits their presence, their ability to move in the world. Most of our participants have physical disabilities. We don't work too often with people with intellectual disabilities.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:44] Are you speaking of autism?Claire Lavery: [00:02:46] Right.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:46] So you don't service.Claire Lavery: [00:02:48] We've had students with those kinds of disabilities in the class, but they've definitely been in the minority. And it's much more about the people who are living with more physical limitations, people with multiple sclerosis, people with cerebral palsy, people with post stroke syndrome, injury, trauma. So we've had quite a wide range of different kinds of disabilities represented in our class. And people with multiple disabilities are, have been long term members as well.Lisa Kiefer: [00:03:14] I didn't know that this existed, honestly, and I want to know how it got founded. What was the reason behind it? Were you there at the beginning? Well, Saraswathi is the one to tell you.Saraswathi Devi: [00:03:24] Well, I've been practicing and teaching since the mid 70s. And as the years went on in the beginning, in the early days, we just had everybody in class. We would have kids and seniors and people who were injured or disabled. Everybody would just be glommed together.Lisa Kiefer: [00:03:42] On campus?Saraswathi Devi: [00:03:42] No, in the community in Berkeley. I was trained by and served very closely a yoga master from India who lived here part of the year. But then as the years went on, we found ourselves specializing. So I began to teach pre and post-natal yoga and children of all ages and seniors and adults at different levels. And then I found myself partly because I have some of my own disabilities. I found myself very attracted to the whole subject, observing a person who was not typically abled and so found myself to the Multiple Sclerosis Society and other places and began to develop a practice that seemed to be really helping people. And that gradually led me to UC Berkeley, where I was hired. Well, at first at the Hearst Gym and then down at the RSF. Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:28] Did they hear about you and hire you or did you know approach them?Saraswathi Devi: [00:04:31] They did. It's a kind of long, convoluted story. But there was a really forward looking woman working in the RSF who hired me. And what I have tried to do is in serving a person who is living with a profound disability or multiple disabilities, we're trying to offer them a practice that they would never otherwise have access to. So we're taking yoga to a place that you wouldn't imagine it could go, so somebody might not be able to speak or move outside of a power wheelchair, whose body might be contorted or who might be having a lot of involuntary movement and and meeting the whole person. So sometimes a person on the street will see somebody living with a disability and they'll either discount them or not have proper regard and respect for the humanity of that person. They just see a bunch of equipment on a wheelchair. But anybody who comes over the threshold into our class is automatically recognized for their rich humanity and just loved and respected instantly. So what I tried to do is take other disciplines that I recognize as another form of yoga in a way and sort of a broad way of thinking. So I'd like to add massage and acupressure and range of motion and sometimes even using free weights.Lisa Kiefer: [00:05:50] Do you use water?Saraswathi Devi: [00:05:51] No, we're not. I would...Lisa Kiefer: [00:05:53] There are pools here and I thought maybe...Saraswathi Devi: [00:05:53] True. Well, I love aqua yoga and if we had a way of somehow having a pool, we would do it for sure. But we lift people out of their wheelchairs who are not ambulatory. They'll be four or five or six of us carrying a person. Proper word is transfer out of the wheelchair onto the floor and then people who are much more mobile who will arrive in class with mobility aids like a cane or a walker, or even walking on their own in a maybe halting way. They're also in the class, so it's a broad range.Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:28] I can imagine that you've encountered some really beautiful transformations for people who have never experienced this before.Saraswathi Devi: [00:06:36] It's a lot of hard work, but it's a joyful experience for all of us. For the students themselves. For Claire, for me, for our volunteers and for our young undergrads who help us every semester.Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:48] And how many undergrads help you?Claire Lavery: [00:06:50] Well, we have a range. We often have up to 60 or 70 students. They enroll in an undergraduate course that gives them two credits. It's a DeCal course. So they come and help us every week.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:03] And they learn how?Claire Lavery: [00:07:04] We train them. We supervise them. We keep an eye on them and they blossom. They do wonders. Many of them arrive without any experience. Many of them arrive thinking that they're going to be doing yoga. And we tell them right away that's not the case. But some of them decide that's not for them. Some of them despite their fears or trepidation, stay with us. And just are wonderful helpers.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:29] Are any of these students disabled that come to you?Claire Lavery: [00:07:31] Yes, some of them are. We've had many students who didn't tell us right away that they had a disability and some are significantly disabled, but would gradually feel safe enough to reveal that. And sometimes they found that they couldn't do the kind of heavy lifting or harder work that we asked them to do. And we are fine with having them help in whatever way they can.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:54] It seems like they would have the most empathy and understanding of where that person might be.[00:07:59] Sometimes that's true.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:01] Not always, but.Claire Lavery: [00:08:02] Not always. And many of the students who come have a family member with a disability or an aging family member or have had an injury and and can apply that emotional information to the work that they're doing with the students.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:14] And how many of your students are Berkeley students and how many are community members generally?Saraswathi Devi: [00:08:21] At the moment, we don't even have one Berkeley student, but we've often had maybe four, three, four or five, maybe a professor or two. But actually the better part of the student population is from the surrounding area.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:35] Do you do this every semester?Saraswathi Devi: [00:08:36] We do it all year round and we have a summer session.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:39] OK. Claire, how did you get involved in this?Claire Lavery: [00:08:43] Well, I had started teaching yoga in the mainstream yoga classes here at Cal and had been doing that just for a couple of years. And the same wonderful woman who hired Saraswathi knew me and said, you know, there's this great class that you might like to help with. They're always looking for volunteers.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:59] Is she still around?Saraswathi Devi: [00:09:00] NO,Suzanne McQuade, she retired. We miss her terribly. Claire Lavery: [00:09:06] Unfortunately, she's not there, but we're trying to keep it going. And she steered me to help out with this class. So I showed up as a volunteer. And I just kind of stayed. I learned a lot.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:19] It seems so innovative. Do you know of any other programs, anywhere else that are like this or is this unique?Saraswathi Devi: [00:09:25] For a lot of years, we thought we were the only place in the country or maybe beyond. And we're starting to see others somewhat similar programs sprouting up, but we still haven't found anything that that goes as far as we go. And the reason why I say this, once we have the opening of class where we're sitting in concentric circles and doing a little bit of breathing or light meditation, then we will transfer people onto the floor. And then we essentially divide ourselves up into two groups where Claire works with the people who are more ambulatory during that part of the class. And I work with people who are less mobile and. So with the people who are more mobile, they'll be two usually two people serving each of the students and they'll be on the floor. They'll be sitting up. They'll be standing against a wall using chairs and yoga blocks and people's hands and arms and legs to help hold them with good alignment in yoga postures. And that actually draws up the strength and balance and alignment from within the person's body. It's not just an artificial hole. On my side of the room, we're moving people on the floor and forward and backward bending movements and yoga postures that look pretty conventional. But there might be two or even five or six people clustered around each of the students holding them at the shoulder at the low back and stretching their feet. And then we incorporate, as I said, a lot of massage and acupressure and other methods.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:58] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, I'm speaking with faculty members of CalStar Yoga, a program that helps people with disabilities practice yoga.Saraswathi Devi: [00:11:24] We had a woman who came in the other day and this is a few months ago, and she had been injured rather badly in her back and was able to after her initial rehabilitation, this was probably 20, 15 or 20 years ago, after her initial rehabilitation, she was able to walk at first with a walker and then with a cane. And then she was able to somewhat haltingly walk in a conventional manner. And then as she started to age, gradually, she found herself in a wheelchair. However, it's a manual chair, so she gets around quite nicely. But she came in very suspicious, trepidatious, and frankly, bitter, understandably highly educated, very productive, talented woman. And she was a little resentful, understandably, of of this new loss of full action in her body and and in some ways in her personality and affect and effect. And so came into the class and we tried to humor her and love her and respect her. And then she said to us, I feel transformed. At the end of the first class now, she's a very stalwart member.Lisa Kiefer: [00:12:30] Once you founded this, what were your major challenges in getting this up and running and accepted?Claire Lavery: [00:12:37] We've had challenges. Initially, the class was really only supported by volunteers from the community and Saraswathi would put out messages in the free papers. This was several years ago before there was a big Internet presence, posters and flyers and put out the word on the street asking for people to come and volunteer. And so we struggled along and it would only be maybe five volunteers and we still have about that time, 10, 15, 20 yoga students. So we couldn't have two people working with each yoga student. We didn't have the manpower of a woman person power. So we would revolve. And we'd do some poses as one person and then we'd set them up comfortably and we'd move on to the next. So that was a little difficult. We had a really innovative and wonderful undergraduate volunteer who had a brainstorm in about 2003 and said, we should make this into a DeCal class because then students would get credit and then.Lisa Kiefer: [00:13:30] ..Tell me what a DeCal class is because some people may not know.Claire Lavery: [00:13:33] A DeCal class is an undergraduate led class in the university and there are hundreds of them. They range from things like baking, hip hop music, to electronic engineering theory or more esoteric interests that students in in Cal hold and want to share.Lisa Kiefer: [00:13:52] And there's credit, course credit?[00:13:53] There's course credits. So our student who was interested in social work and in our class really wanted to make this accessible to more calendar grads. He thought they'd be interested. And so he went registered as a DeCal. And he was right. People came. When that happened, we had many more students and we did start to get the numbers of people we wanted to see to really fully support our yoga students. I know Saraswathi's dream is to have 75 students every semester so that we can have a really full bodied support group and we get pretty close sometimes now.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:29] Do students have to pay to get into this class?Saraswathi Devi: [00:14:32] Yeah, it's a modest fee and they get a little bit of a discount for proving that they they might come in in a wheelchair and not able to speak, but they still are required to bring a doctor verification. That's understandable.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:43] I wanted to ask you what you think your greatest impacts have been. You've been at this for several years now,.Saraswathi Devi: [00:14:49] Since 1996.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:50] Yes. So what do you think has been the greatest impacts or accomplishments?Saraswathi Devi: [00:14:55] I think as far as the yoga students, probably the best benefit that they derive from the class is psychological. They feel seen, respected, loved. They are touched. And I don't mean that in any kind of negative way. They're touched in a nurturing and helpful way. And many of them also experienced good physical effects. They're more relaxed. They feel more cheerful. They have better sleep. Sometimes they have a considerable reduction in pain and stiffness. Many of them find that their circulation has improved, their digestion, a whole host of physical benefits. So I would say really in some ways, though, it's more, one of our students who had been coming for some years who is living the after effects of having been assaulted. So he was brain injured. So he asked what we would call TBI, traumatic brain injury. It affects his vision. So he's legally blind, almost completely blind, and his brain somehow recovered quite amazingly. So he has a very sharp mind, but very halting speech. So he has a speech aphasia. So he walks and speaks in a halting manner and uses a cane. So one day he said to us, when I come into this room, I am treated utterly differently from anywhere else that I go. People just see me as a disability and don't see me. So that's a huge part of it. For our yoga students, volunteers, the undergrads, we always at the end of every semester we ask them to write a reflection paper and we'll give them a certain theme, but essentially it's asking them in some way or other to tell us what their experience was and what they derived from it. And many of them, well, undergrads often will try to write to what they think the professor wants to hear. But nevertheless, you can hear a lot of sincerity in it, too. Most of them will say they were, they had never met a disabled person, with a small exception of some of them who do have as Claire said a disabled person in their family. Many of them have never met a disabled person, or if they have or seen people in the community, they've discounted them or really not given them much credence or attention. And then they also will say that they were terrified that they were gonna do something wrong. They didn't want to touch or hurt anybody. And then they started to get to know our students while we're practicing. There's a lot of really fun, gossip and conversation and everybody's giving each other mutual support and mutual interest in each other's lives. And so they discovered that these are full human beings. Some of them are UC grads. As I said, some are professors. They're all incredibly interesting. And so they find their lives utterly transformed. And we've had a small percentage of of them also change their majors. We've had some who decided to be an attorney giving pro bono services to people who were disabled and any number of really interesting trajectories to their story as they moved through the semester and have their their experience transformed. For me, it's impossible to describe. It's each of the people that we serve is an entire universe as it is for any human being. And I've gotten to know almost all of them, at least those who've stayed for many, many years. I've gotten to know them very well. Some of them have become very dear and close friends. So for me, it's it's like seeing the face of all of creation in the eyes of each person. So I feel like it's the huge super consciousness of the universe. Me and this other person in this lovely communication together across all conventional societal membranes, across any way that you might think that there's an encumbrance when you are communicating with someone who is not is typically abled.Lisa Kiefer: [00:18:33] Well, that kind of leads me to the next question, which is when you're doing these movements, do you also provide some sort of a lecture on the philosophy of what you were just talking about, which is, it's so beyond the physical, that we can, you know, reach each other beyond the flesh.Saraswathi Devi: [00:18:52] We do that in a variety of really subtle ways, and we do it increasingly quietly coming in the side door for our young undergrads as the semester goes on, through reading assignments, through the opening in class, where we give them some internal practices and in some other ways. So.Claire Lavery: [00:19:11] I agree. And Saraswathy said it so beautifully. We don't approach them head on. These are skeptical young people and really don't want to be told what to think or how to think. But they do come into class pretty much glazed over and heavy and distracted. And in our opening session, where we do some meditation and some breathing exercises, you can see them visibly relax. And we have had people, undergraduates right in the end of this semester that that meditation session was what transformed their experience and how they've got to understand what we were really doing. Many of them say that they are now going to start doing yoga. Of course, as we've noted, that might just be so that they look good in our eyes. And I do see some of them in my classes, in the mainstream classes. We do have some readings that we ask them to consider. And when we veer from the very technical or practical readings into a little more theory, they're sometimes a little bit at sea. We just had them reading the Bhagavad Gita which is a pretty familiar text to many Westerners, but it's dense and it talks about a lot of mythological people that are not familiar in the Western culture, and that's enough to really put up a wall for many of the students. So when we discuss it, we have to kind of break down and ask them what did they understand? And some of them are just unwilling to engage in that. They want to be, they're scientists, they're practical, they're 21st century kids. So some of them get it from the meditation. Some of them get it from the theory and the Bhagavad Gita. Some of them have their own understanding or practice of yoga that they bring with them. And some have other traditions that are congruent or complementary to the kinds of thoughts that we were just discussing.Saraswathi Devi: [00:21:03] And partly also when we're teaching a technique because they're learning hands on as we go over the semester, we're not training them for weeks. And then we have weekend workshops throughout the semester, several of them. But part of what we're doing, too, is we're helping them to see a link between this kind of beautiful ancient ritual form of exercise and the quietness and focus of mind and emotion that comes to the yoga student who's being served, but also comes to the volunteers who are doing the serving. Because here we are, we're holding a little bit challenging position and we have to breathe slowly. Yes, there is a lot of fun conversation in between. But there's also a lot of slow, deep breathing. And anyone who experiences that kind of breath on a regular basis will find that it has a very focusing effect on the mind and emotions and makes your brain more clear. So one of the things I like to say when we're doing an opening meditation with these undergrads is this will help your memory, your ability to focus and do well on finals. So sometimes that..Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:04] that's kind of a carrot... Saraswathi Devi: [00:22:05] that helps.Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:06] Well, this Igen generation after the millennials is the first to have grown up with so much technology in their lives. Have you been able to monitor the difference in the students you've had over the years since technology has become so prevalent in their lives?Claire Lavery: [00:22:22] We kind of saw a sea change about 10 years ago in the way the attention spans worked. Students are a little, a little antsy at the start of class. They generally settle in and they can focus. They're intelligent and they're used to working hard and intellectually hard. But they're not always used to working emotionally hard or are focusing in a more subtle way. We do have them take their phones out, turn them off and put them on the side of the room for class. And that's challenging for a lot of them.Saraswathi Devi: [00:22:52] we have a little bit of fun with that.Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:55] Probably helps them in school. What you're doing?Saraswathi Devi: [00:22:58] They've said that. Yeah. So we all benefit everybody. And they. One of the things that they will say to us often is this was a great ending of my school week. I've left class feeling really refreshed and ready for the weekend.Lisa Kiefer: [00:23:12] Do you have anything else going on that you want to tell us about coming up?Saraswathi Devi: [00:23:16] People have been asking Claire and me in all of the different universes that she and I both live in. Asked if we would please do a teacher training. So we're in the very, very first steps of organizing that. And we're going to do it collaboratively between the two of us and a third person who has been an on and off volunteer with us, who's very talented. So we're just in the beginning stages of formulating that. And then we have to do outreach and funding and all of that.Lisa Kiefer: [00:23:42] And where do you see this heading out to?Saraswathi Devi: [00:23:43] We'd like to serve other yoga teachers who are interested to make a foray into this universe. And many of them, most of them have not. They couldn't even imagine it. And we'd also like to find ways of influencing and giving some practical strategies to someone who's a family member or a caregiver who could help someone with a disability at home.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:06] It sounds like you've got a lot of data over the years that you maybe collected?Saraswathi Devi: [00:24:10] We do. It's it's very informal, but yeah.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:13] Still, that's very valuable. I would think from a lot of different people it would be of value. Are you going to put together guidelines, like a book?Saraswathi Devi: [00:24:22] There will be our training manual. Yeah. Okay. And it may end up and we'll see. Claire, we're both so busy, but it may end up that we'll have satellite programs that will come from that where we'll we'll start with a basic teacher training and then we may find that we'll do some specialty as an extra specialty training over there. You might do some kind of weekend workshopy kinds of things. We haven't figured it all out. Yes. But it's something that we really we have a responsibility to do. We need to share it more widely than just here.Claire Lavery: [00:24:53] We would like to have medical professionals in our trainings that would learn a different way to communicate and work with the people they see on a very regular basis.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:03] Are you talking about physical therapists?Claire Lavery: [00:25:05] Physical therapists, doctors, nurses, nurse practitioners, the whole spectrum. We want them to be aware that this is an alternative to the very strict regime of drugs and hope.Saraswathi Devi: [00:25:17] You know, we have the father of one of our students who lives with cerebral palsy one time said to me, what you're doing here is much better than most of the doctoring my daughter is ever going to receive. He's a physician. I thought that was maybe a little dramatic, but actually in a lot of cases, I'm sure it's quite true.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:34] If somebody is interested in the community, whether that's a student or a regular person out there, how would they get a hold of you? Do you have a Web site? And how can they help you or join up?Saraswathi Devi: [00:25:47] One way is to contact the RSF, the recreational sports facility, on the UC Berkeley campus on Bancroft at Dana. And it's right near the student union.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:58] Is that reachable via the Web?Claire Lavery: [00:26:00] There is an online website presence under CalStar. So if you look under recreational sports and there's a drop down menu and you'll have to look, I think it's under group exercise or you can type in the search bar. CalStar, one word C-A-L-S-T-A-R and that's the program. And if you write CalStar yoga, it should bring you to the page that describes our class.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:24] And if people wanted to volunteer, it's the same. It is the same place you go to the same place, whether you want to volunteer or take the class.?Claire Lavery: [00:26:32] Right. And in either case, if you're interested in volunteering or in being a student, you could drop in to one of our Friday afternoon classes and just see the first class.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:41] And where are those classes located? Where would they go?Claire Lavery: [00:26:44] They're in the RSF, the main gym on campus at Bancroft Way. They're in the combatives room, which is unfortunate for a yoga class. It's on the first floor. You'll have to tell the guard at the gate that you're going to CalStar Yoga and they'll let you in and you'll walk down the hall. It's the last door on your left.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:00] And how long are your sessions, generally?Claire Lavery: [00:27:01] We meet from 1:30 to 3:30 Friday afternoons every week.Saraswathi Devi: [00:27:06] I like sometimes for someone who's inquiring, who might be interested. Who really wants a description of the class beforehand. Some people like to just jump in. Everybody has a different way. I would be happy to give my email address if somebody wanted to contact me. I would be very pleased to describe the program and just try to light a little psychological fire in the person. So it's info@yogalayam.org. I teach and live in a yoga and meditation center. So yogalayam is all one word spelled y o g a l a y a m.org.Claire Lavery: [00:27:42] And it is a good idea before joining the class, especially as a yoga student, to communicate with us so that we can both understand what you are going to experience.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:52] Before we leave today, I wanted to ask you what advice you might give someone before they start this program.Saraswathi Devi: [00:27:59] And I believe you're talking about people who would come in as a volunteer and also people who would come in as a yoga student. I would say for the volunteers, please come with an open mind and realize that you will probably learn more than you thought you could and that you will enjoy what you're doing and feel a certain psychological upliftment that you might not ever have imagined you could. For the yoga students, again, I would ask the person to come to the class with an open mind and see if they feel like it's a good fit and give themselves a chance, coming even more than once to see how we can stretch the practice to accommodate anyone's needs.Claire Lavery: [00:28:42] I would also just advise everyone who comes to come with an open heart and to be open to the transformations that might not feel familiar.Lisa Kiefer: [00:28:54] It seems like this is such a valuable experience for anyone of any age to to take part.Saraswathi Devi: [00:29:01] I would say the human body, mind and heart have an amazing ability to survive. If you find yourselves, caught yourself, compromised in some way. If you're not able to garner all of the themes and abilities and structures and functions that you typically have or used to have, other people can come in and make up some of that difference. They can support you not only physically with their hands, but really, I would say psycho spiritually surrounding you and helping you to find and sustain what is profound and essential in yourself. Even if you can't do it all by yourself.Claire Lavery: [00:29:43] I can say from my experience, I am an able bodied yoga instructor. I have been fortunate to be fairly strong and healthy. I get so much out of this class. I get emotionally an uplift. I get a calming effect. I get love. And I'm a cynical New Yorker, so it works for me.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:07] Well, I want to thank you both.Claire Lavery: [00:30:08] Thank you so much for having me.Saraswathi Devi: [00:30:09] Thank you very, very much.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:16] You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. 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A trio of Northern California women (two of whom are UC Berkeley alumni) founded Salt Point Seaweed in Spring 2017 to harvest seaweed from the Pacific Ocean. They forage, farm, and do research along the California coast to offer the highest quality and most nutritious seaweed, responsibly sourced from the pristine waters of Northern California. Catherine O’Hare talks to host Lisa Kiefer about their business model, the different types of seaweed, and their commitment to ethical, sustainable solutions for humans and our environment.TranscriptLisa Kiefer: [00:00:08] This is Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today, I'm speaking with Catherine O'Hare. She's part of a trio of female entrepreneurs who have started a company called Salt Point Seaweed. Welcome to the program, Catherine. Thank you.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:38] I have so many questions for you about this seaweed company, first of all. Are you the only women owned seaweed company in the world?Catherine O'Hare: [00:00:45] That's a good question. I don't think so. There's a seaweed harvester up in Sonoma County who's a woman. I don't know if her business is all women owned, but there's not many.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:55] Are you an alumni of UC Berkeley?Catherine O'Hare: [00:00:57] No. Tessa and Avery, the other two women, are alumni. They did their grad program here at UC Berkeley. Tessa and I both went to Oberlin College in Ohio for undergraduate.Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:08] How did you get started in the seaweed business? What inspired you to do this?Catherine O'Hare: [00:01:13] All three of us have a background in agriculture, so we've always been interested in food. I was a biology major and then worked on farms. So I'd always been interested in local food and healthy food. But it wasn't until moving to the bay now like five or six years ago that I got connected with the seaweed harvester and started learning about all the local seaweeds that we have here on the Northern California coast. I grew up by the ocean in Southern California. So I loved the ocean. I loved the beach. I was always looking for ways to be by the water. They were the first to get involved. Of the trio of founders. Yeah. So we all have a background in agriculture. We also all have some ties to East Africa where we've either worked before or lived before. And there we all saw seaweed farming in Zanzibar.Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:58] Were you in the Peace Corps?Catherine O'Hare: [00:01:59] No. I studied abroad there when I was in college, just doing a coastal ecology program. Tessa and Avery both did their graduate program at UC Berkeley and they did a master's in development practice. So it's kind of sustainable international development. So that brought them to East Africa.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:17] Did you all meet up over there or did you find out later that you had.Catherine O'Hare: [00:02:22] We found out later. Tessa and I knew each other from Oberlin. We both ended up in the bay. We each had independent experiences in East Africa. And Avery and Tessa met here at UC Berkeley. And during their during Avery's program here, she did work in East Africa. So we all just kind of had these in our weaving paths. So I was just living and working in the bay, working for a small food company and kind of learning more about seaweed harvesting and doing it as a hobby. And in the meantime, I was good friends with Tessa. So we were talking all the time about all these things related to food, just tossing around ideas about local agriculture systems, herbs, seaweed, farming, like we just were tossing around all these ideas every time we met up. And seaweed was always one of those things, I think because I had seen seaweed farming in Zanzibar and she was interested in these alternative livelihood systems for women all over the world. And so it was during that time where Tessa and Avery were finishing their graduate program here.Catherine O'Hare: [00:03:23] I was working and exploring where the seaweed on our local coast that we just started delving deeper and deeper into the world of seaweed and talking to everyone we can, emailing people, trying to meet up with people just to learn more about the seaweed industry, about seaweed farming. And it just has kind of.Lisa Kiefer: [00:03:42] How to harvest and all that? Catherine O'Hare: [00:03:43] Yeah.Lisa Kiefer: [00:03:44] So what were your steps?Catherine O'Hare: [00:03:46] Well, so we're doing our pilot project with Hog Island Oyster Company there in Oyster Farm in Tamales Bay, because the legislation and regulatory agencies are you know, it's a long process to get your own aquaculture permit. So we're doing a research project. This Hog Island Oyster Farm is hosting our pilot, but Hog Island leases from the state, the state waters. So they have aquaculture permit from California Fish and Wildlife. And that's kind of one of the many, you know, permits that they have to be doing aquaculture.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:19] Are you going to be a pilot for a long time or how long does that last before you actually have to get your own permits independently?Catherine O'Hare: [00:04:27] We're still figuring it out. We first talked to Hog Island over two years ago where we just showed up and kind of bounce this idea off them of, you know, we're interested in doing a little pilot to farm seaweed to see how these native species of seaweed grow. Have you ever thought about that? Would you be interested? And so those conversations happened kind of over the course of a year. Meanwhile, we were trying to apply for grants to fund this, I think because Tessa and Avery had this grad school academic background that was kind of the framework that that we knew of how to try to do a project like this.Lisa Kiefer: [00:05:04] So you got your funding via grant?Lisa Kiefer: [00:05:06] We applied for one grant through NOAA that was big. It like gave us the structure to really dive in and figure out all the details. We did not get that one, but because it had set us up to really have a project. Then Hog Island was still on board to do this. So we were like, OK, we'll find we'll find other funding. So then we got a smaller grant from California Sea Grant, which is like an affiliate of Noah. And that gave us ten thousand dollars That development grant is just to prepare mostly academics to go after a bigger grant. So it's kind of this like small bundle of money. So we were awarded that and then that really funded the pilot.Lisa Kiefer: [00:05:48] Have you continued to just use grants or or did you go out into the private equity?Catherine O'Hare: [00:05:53] No. We. We all put in a little bit of our own money to start. We got another business, small business grant from Oberlin College where Tessa and I went. That was great. That was a huge help. We just finished a Kickstarter a few weeks ago. And other than that, we've just been getting some revenue from our product line of our wild harvested seaweed. So we're kind of...Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:16] So you're keeping your mission in tact, keeping outsiders out.Catherine O'Hare: [00:06:19] Yeah. So far, we're also growing very slowly because of that, which is okay with us. We're not we're definitely not the traditional Bay Area business, I think. But yeah. So far, there's no other investment in the company.Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:32] Okay. This oyster company. What is the relationship between oysters and seaweed?Catherine O'Hare: [00:06:38] It's a really beautiful symbiotic relationship. Oysters are also filter feeders, so they're filtering the water and making it less cloudy and less murky. So more light can reach the seaweed. And seaweed is a really beneficial. You know, seaweed is just the term for marine macro algae. So any algae that's growing in a marine environment that's like seaweed is kind of this big, vague term.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:02] So it's kelp and there's all kinds.Catherine O'Hare: [00:07:04] Yeah. There's all kinds, kelp or brown seaweeds. There's also green algae and red algae. So what seaweeds do just like land plants, their primary producers, they're absorbing carbon and nitrogen to grow. And so unlike a land plant, that carbon and nitrogen is coming from the water. So in seaweeds, growing in an environment, it's, you know, kind of taking out some of those excess nutrients. Too much carbon in the water is what's leading to ocean acidification. And that's one of the factors that can inhibit shellfish growth. So if the water's too acidic, it's hard for their shells to form when they're young.Lisa Kiefer: [00:07:39] And seaweed helped with that.Catherine O'Hare: [00:07:40] Right. So seaweed is making the water. You know, so far the studies done show that it's just in a local area.Catherine O'Hare: [00:07:46] So right where you're growing the seaweed, there's hope that you can be moderating the P.H. of that water. So making it a little bit less acidic, making the water chemistry a little more balanced for lack of a better word. And also by absorbing nitrogen that helps, you know, too much nitrogen in a marine environment is what causes those harmful algal blooms, though. So the thought is by growing the type of seaweed that you want and then harvesting and getting it out of the environment, you're helping to kind of capture some of that nitrogen before it leads to. It's like using it for the seaweed you want instead of the algae that.Lisa Kiefer: [00:08:21] It's kind of like seaweed farming.Catherine O'Hare: [00:08:23] Yeah. What we're doing is technically under the umbrella of aquaculture, but there's a lot of different ways that aquaculture can look. Seaweed and shellfish farming are pretty low input like you need to put physical equipment in the water column. But then there's no feed, there's no additives, there's no additional fertilizer or anything. It's just, you know, they're using sunlight in the case of seaweed, sunlight and the water aquaculture on the other end of the spectrum can be fish farming can be these bigger, more intensive systems. Some of those fish farms, you need to get fish to feed the fish. You have to I mean, I'm sure some add a lot of additives. So, yeah. This word aquaculture really has a big range.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:06] OK. Are you testing the water daily? What have you discovered in the short time that you've been in this business about the quality of the Pacific Ocean?Catherine O'Hare: [00:09:15] That's a great question.Catherine O'Hare: [00:09:17] We have had to kind of scale back our pilot based on money and time and resources. But the wonderful thing is that Hog Island has been doing partnerships with but Bodega Marine Lab through UC Davis that they get water quality measurements every day. They have these monitors in the water that are constantly giving them feedback. So through that, we've been able to see how the salinity is changing, the PH, the temperature. They're measuring all these things every day.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:44] And what are you discovering?Catherine O'Hare: [00:09:45] Our pilot ran from April of last year till November. So a pretty small window. And really what we saw were just seasonal variations. So like seasonal temperature changes and PH changes not related to our pilot. I think there is concern just in general about ocean acidification. But our pilot was a little too small scale.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:05] But you will continue to see any changes. So that's really valuable.Catherine O'Hare: [00:10:10] Yeah. So right now, that pilot wrapped up in the fall. And just because everything is so unknown, we're kind of taking a pause to see what's next. We're still working with Hog Island, but we're kind of in conversation about what phase two will look like. So, yeah, I think if it were easier to get an aquaculture permit in California, that would be the direction we would want ahead. It's a long and expensicve process in California and, you know, rightfully so we have this beautiful protected coastline.Lisa Kiefer: [00:10:48] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators today, speaking with Catherine O'Hare of Salt Point Seaweed.Lisa Kiefer: [00:11:09] If you could just walk me through the process of I guess you'd call it farming the seaweed. What would a typical day be like for you three?Catherine O'Hare: [00:11:18] It's about to be harvest time for our wild harvested products. For the seaweed farming pilot, we harvested mostly in September and October because the species that we grew, we grew throughout the summer and then harvested in the fall. A lot of the kelp farms on the East Coast grow throughout the winter and then harvest in the spring. But the type of seaweed that we did for this pilot is a type of red algae. So not the big long kelps, but a type of red algae called grass grassaleria. It's also called ogo. It's like a kind of a red spindly seaweed. We chose it because it's native to Tamales Bay. It's edible. It's pretty easy to propagate because we were doing this very low tech. And so how we did it was we created little bundles of seaweed.Lisa Kiefer: [00:12:09] So do you go out there and cut it? Or how do you do it?Catherine O'Hare: [00:12:11] So we had a permit to wild harvest the initial, you know, seed stock. And then so we harvested we created cut little bundles. And this seaweed is a type that will propagate vegetative. So just by cutting it, it can grow more. So we created little bundles and then out there already, Hog Island had big, long lines that were floating on the surface of the water and anchored to the bottom. You know, there are buoys and each of those buoys were anchored to the bottom. Each of those bundles that we created, we kind of un-twisted the long line to create a little gap in the long line and then shoved the bundle through. And as we let go, the tension of the line would hold the bundle in place. So that's the basic, our basic propagation method. So it was originally wild and then that's how we farmed it onto a line. So then we had a long line out there in Tomales Bay and the bundles of seaweed were kind of growing down from the line. So we were measuring growth rate. So each month we would come back and harvest it and see how much grew. You know, we have this little fishing boat and we just use scissors. We can get really close to the line and just use scissors.Lisa Kiefer: [00:13:19] And so you don't actually get in the water.Catherine O'Hare: [00:13:22] Not for this farming pilot. We stayed on a boat. So we're kind of have this split personality where we're all so wild harvesting seaweed and that we do get in the water, that we go at low tide to these rocky coves up on the northern coast and still just using scissors in our hands. But we're on foot and kind of exploring the intertidal when it's really, really low tide.Lisa Kiefer: [00:13:47] And what kind of seaweed is that called?Catherine O'Hare: [00:13:49] The re were harvesting three species. Two are kelps. One is a lemonaria. We call that California kombu. And then alaria is California wakame. And then we're also harvesting Nori, which are actually many species that look almost identical. So it's hard to kind of say for sure the exact species, but they're on the genus Pyropia. So those are the three wild harvested seaweeds. We don't harvest any of the giant kelps. Yeah, although species can be sustainably harvested. So you're just kind of pruning the species, so you're cutting it to a certain level and then they'll regrow and regenerate.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:29] And so you bring it back to the shore and then what happens?Catherine O'Hare: [00:14:32] Usually when we're harvesting is far from any road because, you know, we're choosing the most pristine area. So then we hike it up because it's so misty and cold and wet on the coast. We have a drying location that's inland about 45 minutes or an hour so that it's, we can get the hot sunny afternoon and then we dry it in the sun and seaweed roll on a good day, dry by the end of the day. And so that's why the sun is really important.Lisa Kiefer: [00:14:59] So you can have it in a truck ready to go to market in 24 hours?Catherine O'Hare: [00:15:03] Selling dry, the low tides are low for many days in a row. So we like, do you know, day after day. But yeah, after harvesting one early morning. By the next day, we could have product ready to go when you're done with that process.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:20] When you are done with that project, you have a warehouse here?Catherine O'Hare: [00:15:20] We have a small storage location in Oakland.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:24] OK, yeah. And is that the place from which it's distributed to end users?Catherine O'Hare: [00:15:29] Yes. Basically, we have so many locations because we're trying to scrape together affordable places, but we have a commercial kitchen that we sublease where we do all the food production so that it's up to California health code.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:44] And where is that located?Catherine O'Hare: [00:15:45] That's in South Berkeley. It's at the Berkeley Kitchens. It's an amazing group of food businesses. We sublet from Cult crackers who make those really amazing gluten free crackers. So we're using their kitchen on nights and weekends. That's where we make our food products. So from there, we, you know, have another storage location where we can do all the shipping and distribution.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:07] So do you have to do packaging as well?Catherine O'Hare: [00:16:09] Mm hmm.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:09] There's a lot of pieces to this.Catherine O'Hare: [00:16:10] There's a lot of pieces to it.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:12] How would I find your product as an end user here in the East Bay?Catherine O'Hare: [00:16:16] We just got into Berkeley Bowl, which was a exciting development a few weeks ago, we're at two farmers markets, the Fort Mason market in the city in San Francisco and every other week we're at the Kensington Market both on Sundays and then when a few stores.. it's growing. But Berkeley Bowl in the city, you we're in Rainbow Grocery. We're at Far West Fun guy's booth in the Ferry Building. We're at Oak Town Spice Shop in Oakland, preserved in Oakland. The whole list is on our Web site. So you can also buy products on our website, which is SaltPointSeaweed.com.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:52] You also have recipes on there for using seaweed.Catherine O'Hare: [00:16:55] Yeah, we have recipes.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:56] You also post your research notes or anything.Catherine O'Hare: [00:16:59] So we're creating this public report from the pilot. We're trying to get it done as soon as possible. And then, yes, that's gonna be on our website. We're kind of gonna distribute that widely because we want the results of this pilot with Hog Island to be distributed and open for people to see. We want it to kind of help tell the story of what seaweed farming could do and how it could, in theory, be a positive benefit to the environment.Lisa Kiefer: [00:17:23] Tell me about using seaweed. I don't think most people know about the nutrients in seaweed.Catherine O'Hare: [00:17:30] Each species has slightly different nutritional profile, but in general, seaweeds are just very nutrient dense. So there's a lot of minerals. Almost all seaweeds have iodine and that's a hard especially for vegans. It's a rare mineral to find in high concentrations. Seaweed has vitamin B, calcium, iron. It's just kind of like the super dense food. Seaweeds also have these mineral salts. So instead of sodium chloride, which is table salt, they have these other mineral salts like potassium, which kind of just give it a unique flavor. And I just read this article about the scientists who discovered you umami in Japan back in the nineteen, early nineteen hundreds. That flavor umami is attributed to the glutamate. I hope I'm getting this right, that seaweed is high in. So seaweeds also aside from the nutrition, give food this really savory umami flavor. Partially because of those minerals.Lisa Kiefer: [00:18:28] So it must be really good in soups.Catherine O'Hare: [00:18:30] It's great in soups. Yeah. So the types that we sell the kombu is this great bass for broth, for stews, for soups. It's high in that umami. It's high and iodine. So it's adding,I throw it at anything I cook just because it's giving it minerals, nutrients. And this kind of savory flavor combo also helps break down the carbohydrates and beans and legumes that sometimes give us digestive problems. So it helps make beans easier to cook and digest. Kombu's an easy one to to throw in a lot of dishes without thinking about it too much. We also sell California wakame, which is a thinner kelp. It's more mild. It's like Kombu is hard to eat. Just raw because it's thick. Wakame is thinner, so it's easier to just cut up and then throw the pieces in like a stir fry.Lisa Kiefer: [00:19:19] Or a salad?Catherine O'Hare: [00:19:20] So yeah, it's great to rehydrate and then make a seaweed salad with. We have some of those recipes on our website. A lot of people come up and take samples at the farmer's market and they're like, oh, that's not, you know, that's not the superintense seaweed flavor I was expecting. I always say that I think the varieties that we harvest here in California are a little bit more mild or maybe it's that they're fresh.Lisa Kiefer: [00:19:40] I was going to ask you that. What would be the taste difference between the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific and, you know, any other bodies or what have you noticed? Have you done a tasting?Catherine O'Hare: [00:19:48] You know, I this is a maybe a sad confession. I haven't done too much tasting of East Coast Atlantic seaweeds, just haven't spent much time on the East Coast. Chefs tell us that they can taste a difference between Japanese and Korean grown seaweed and the type that we're growing here. The Nori that we harvest here, they tell us that there's a more mineral, kind of like wild rich taste compared to the Nori that's coming from Japan and Korea. Out of the three of us, Avery has the most culinary background. She was a chef and has background in culinary. I'm learning how to put more culinary words to seaweed. But sometimes, you know, that's a, that's a muscle I'm trying to build.Lisa Kiefer: [00:20:31] That's when you just say, I like it.Catherine O'Hare: [00:20:33] Yeah. I love it. I love eating it. Can I describe the differences? I'm working on it.Lisa Kiefer: [00:20:38] Speaking of Japan and that area, do people worry about the fallout from the Fukushima radioactivity in the waters? Is that a concern?Catherine O'Hare: [00:20:48] Yeah, we get a lot of questions about that. That's one of the reasons why we're excited and interested in providing California seaweed, because it's harder to trace the seaweed that's coming from Japan and Korea.Lisa Kiefer: [00:21:00] Don't most seaweeds come from Asia?Catherine O'Hare: [00:21:02] Yeah. Most edible seaweeds are coming from Korea, China and Japan. There's seaweed grown all over the world, but in the US, over 95 percent of the seaweed eaten is coming from overseas and other, other places. UC Berkeley actually was part of this consortium of UCs that after the two thousand eleven Fukushima disaster started testing the kelp beds from the coast of, like off San Diego to Canada. So for years they were testing the kelp beds and looking for radioactive isotopes and they didn't find any being picked up by the kelp beds.Lisa Kiefer: [00:21:40] Great.Catherine O'Hare: [00:21:41] Yeah. So that's good news. And we have you know, we so far can't do our own testing, but we turn to that third party. I'm so grateful that now that they have done that and if anyone's interested, it's called Kelp Watch and you can go to the website and they have all the information there.Lisa Kiefer: [00:21:55] And a lot of people are allergic to oysters. If your seaweed is in a bed of oysters, do they have to worry about that at all?Catherine O'Hare: [00:22:03] Good question. We rinse every all the seaweed in saltwater. So if someone's allergic to shellfish, like on our products right now, we have a disclaimer that because it's a wild product, there might be some small sea crustacean that, you know, we can't ever 100 percent confirm that there's no traces of shellfish, but it's not like they're touching or intermingling. We rinse all of the seaweed in fresh seawater.Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:29] And I wanted to ask you about the challenges that you three have faced in entering this field, whether it's being an all woman business or finding money. You've talked a little bit about that. What are some of the major challenges?Catherine O'Hare: [00:22:44] Gosh, I think there's a couple different categories. One is that we did start this very slowly and organically and didn't take funding. So we all were working other jobs for the last two years. You know, it's kind of a feedback loop, right? We were working other jobs so grew slower, but it grew slower because we're working other jobs. But just finding access to funding that we would feel good about and that we would still have control of our company. That's been one. I think the Bay right now is a really supportive place to be a woman known business. So we've felt a lot of enthusiasm and encouragement from that. But sure, there are always people who don't take you seriously or don't give you the time of day because you don't look like the typical business person. A big challenge with the seaweed farming pilot that we're doing is that the regulatory process to get our own aquaculture permit is just so long and expensive. That was one of the reasons to do the pilot is to take the results of the pilot. How much carbon and nitrogen the seaweeds absorbing and show it to these regulatory agencies. So have a document that you can go to Fish and Wildlife and California Coastal Commission. But that's been a big challenge because if that were easier, I think we'd be in a different place. And we're definitely supportive of the regulatory agencies. They have a big job and a hard job and are doing the good work of protecting our coast and our resources. You know, I think there's a number that there's been no new aquaculture leases granted offshore in 25 years or 30 years. So there's just no precedent. So that's a big challenge that we're trying to we're trying to address by sharing the results of this pilot.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:27] And are you making any money on your product?Catherine O'Hare: [00:24:29] We are. Right now, we're about breaking even.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:32] That's pretty good in a short time.Catherine O'Hare: [00:24:34] Yeah, I mean, we have low expenses. We're being very scrappy. And, you know, just being at farmers markets mean we have regular sales and regular income and we sell online. We sell our products online. And then we also sell bulk to food restaurants and food businesses. There's a few restaurants that are ongoing supporters and then some businesses like a kimchi company and a bone broth company. So there's been regular sales. So we've been able to keep ourselves going on the wild harvested products and and really, you know, show that there's demand for seaweed and help build the education and awareness around seaweed.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:12] Do you have any competitors in this marketplace?Catherine O'Hare: [00:25:14] There are other wild harvested seaweed companys.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:16] Local?Catherine O'Hare: [00:25:17] Most based in Mendocino County, and they're amazing. Some of them have been doing it since the 80s or the 70s. There's a few other groups, you know, they feel like collaborators who are also trying to do seaweed farming. So there's a duo down in San Diego trying to farm seaweed in the port of San Diego. There's a company called Farmer C in Santa Barbara who's head by Dan Marquez, and we know him really well. So there's other people who are trying to farm seaweed in California, but so far all are at the research stage or the preliminary stage because it's hard to get those permits.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:53] So you all share information, I would assume so far.Catherine O'Hare: [00:25:56] Yeah, it's been very collaborative. We're all trying to you know, we kind of see it like a rising tide, lifts all boats, like it would benefit us all to have easier access and sharing resources. And then there's a lot of Kelp farms starting on the East Coast. Most farms on the East Coast are farming sugar kelp, especially the state of Maine, has made it really streamlined and much easier to get aquaculture permits and start kelp farms. So it's really exciting to see all the progress happening over there. There's kelp farming that's being started in Alaska, so it's starting... California, I think it's gonna be a little bit slower to take off in California because of the regulatory agencies.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:33] You're doing a lot of your harvesting in public water. There's boats and you know, the whole idea that there could be motorboats and oil in the water. Yeah, you know, it's complicated.Catherine O'Hare: [00:26:44] It's definitely complicated. And seaweed. You know, a lot of aquaculture happens in mixed areas like that.Lisa Kiefer: [00:26:51] So I don't mind a little bit more regulation as a consumer, if it means a higher quality product.Catherine O'Hare: [00:26:57] Yeah. And seaweeds can absorb you know, they absorb what's in the water. So that's why it's really important that our waters are clean and pristine and as protected as we can have them.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:07] What have been some of your best accomplishments?Catherine O'Hare: [00:27:10] Someone gave us the advice like keep a list in your journal or on your phone of other little firsts like, oh, first time someone emailed about having an internship. So I think we've done a mediocre job at that. But there's been a lot of little accomplishments that feel great. The Kickstarter last month was a big one. We rais..we set our goal at $25000. And I think we ended up raising $42000. And it was really emotional to see so much support come in. So that felt like a very tangible success.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:40] Have you gotten any awards or recognition?Catherine O'Hare: [00:27:42] We have bee n featured in Vogue and on the the website Goop. But it's funny, like the little like Berkeleyside just did a feature on us and that I think resulted in more sales and attention. So you never know which ones are going to end. The Kickstarter did also help with that. It's kind of like this concrete little time pressured event that really helped spread the word. So I think like there are publications that we reached out to for the Kickstarter, but it just resulted in more awareness. But yeah, winning some of these small business grants felt like big accomplishments and we had to, like the one at Oberlin was a competition. So we had to pitch and get judged and people emailing to ask if you're hiring. It's like, I have to be one day, that we can you know, there's like lots of things that feel like accomplishments.Lisa Kiefer: [00:28:30] What are some of the things coming up? Maybe if you project out a couple of years? Catherine O'Hare: [00:28:33] So we're definitely still talking with Hog Island about phase two of the pilot. So we're still trying to do research on seaweed farming. We're looking for more grants to fund that, because really what we want to do next is partner with the academic institution and kind of go for a bigger scale project. You know, we're kind of split personality because we're still running the business and creating these food products. Just our time and resources are limited. So we're looking for partners for that. But we hope to be finding ways to sustainably scale, sustainably source our seaweed. We feel like as if we continue to grow our presence and our market demand, that will only help us be in a better position to, you know, to take on some of these issues around seaweed farming.Lisa Kiefer: [00:29:22] What is your website and can people reach you if they have questions?Catherine O'Hare: [00:29:25] Yes. So our website is SaltPointSeaweed.com. You can also follow us on Instagram. That's where we give the most updates. We're @SaltpointSeaweed. Yeah, you can reach us on our website. There's an email form. We have products on there. We have recipes. We send out email newsletters. You can sign up for that on our website, too, or we'd send out little fun articles and pictures of our harvest and stuff like that. Seaweed is this amazing resource that grows without land or freshwater. It can be farmed and harvested sustainably. It can be grown abundantly. And I think as the world changes, we're going to need food sources that are sustainable, that are locally grown and that are nutritious. So for us, seaweed is this wonderful resource for that reason.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:14] Well, thank you, Katherine, for being on Method to the Madness.Catherine O'Hare: [00:30:17] Thank you so much for having me.Lisa Kiefer: [00:30:22] You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi weekly public affairs show on K A L X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Rev Lebaredian, Vice President of Simulation Technology at Bay Area based company, NVIDIA speaks about innovations in artificial intelligence, gaming, and robotics as well as how technology is impacting our humanity.Transcript:Ojig Yeretsian:This is Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Ojig Yeretsian. Today I'm speaking with Rev Lebaredian, vice president of simulation and technology at NVIDIA, where he leads gaming technology and simulation efforts. Welcome to the show, Rev. What is VR?Rev Lebaredian:Well, VR stands for virtual reality, obviously. What most people imagine when we say VR are these clunky headsets that you put on your face or some little receptacle you place your phone into before putting it on your face. VR is actually something that we've been experiencing throughout mankind from the very beginning. All of our perception actually happens in our brains. You're not seeing with your eyes, you're seeing the world around you interpreted through what your brain is actually doing. When we sit around and we talk to each other like we are right now, [inaudible] elephant, and you just got an image of an elephant in your brain. There's not one around here. You conjure up this image and that's me incepting this image into your brain a virtual reality that we're constructing. Here we are talking, having this conversation, we're constructing a reality amongst ourselves.These new versions of virtual reality that we're starting to see are just a more direct way to create an immersive virtual reality experience. It's not actually the end yet. We're not totally at the end of this thing, it's just one of the steps along the way. Humanity has figured out ways of creating this virtual reality, this just communicating, telling stories to each other verbally. Eventually we had books, you can write them in there. You could do recordings like the one we're making right now, movies, video games, but the end game is going to be where we can start communicating even without words, potentially. I highly recommend you look up Ken Perlin from NYU. He's one of the greats of computer graphics, where he describes what virtual reality means to him. I completely agree with what he's saying. My piece in this is construction of virtual realities and virtual worlds through simulation, that's fundamentally what we do at NVIDIA. Our core as a computer graphics company, we power most of the computer graphics in the world, at least the serious stuff.Constructing these virtual worlds so we can inject them into these virtual realities is what our currency is.Ojig Yeretsian:What is AR?Rev Lebaredian:They're actually related. So, virtual reality is a new reality that you create that you're completely immersed in, but it's on its own. AR stands for augmented reality. Another term is mixed reality, MR. Some people use that term instead. Currently we're in a reality of our own right here. We're sitting in this room talking to each other and I'm perceiving you sitting there. Mixed realities or augmented realities are ones where I can blend in other realities into this world more directly. The current manifestations of this, the beginnings of AR, we're seeing through your phones. I mean, every iPhone and Android phone nowadays has something, that crude thing we call AR, where you can point your phone at something in your environment and it creates a digital representation of some reality mixed into it. The first one to make this popular, the first app, was the Pokemon Go. It was very cool but still extremely crude. A few years from now it's going to be far more compelling and far more immersive.Ojig Yeretsian:AI versus deep AI.Rev Lebaredian:These terms are very contentious. What is AI? What is intelligence? We still haven't really defined that. Generally speaking, when we colloquially speak about artificial intelligence today we're talking about algorithms. Computers doing things that we used to think only humans could do. We've been going through series of these things throughout computing history. One of the first challenges that we had for computers that we thought only humans would be able to do is playing chess. In the 90s, Garry Kasparov, the world champion at the time, was beat by Deep Blue. It reshaped what we thought computers could do and what is the domain of humans. Interestingly, it didn't kill chess which is what one of the things that people assumed would happen once a computer wins. Turns out, we don't really care what computers can do. We mostly care what humans do. So, I'm sure we'll make a robot one day that could play basketball better than any NBA player, but that won't kill basketball.Ojig Yeretsian:It won't replace it, no.Rev Lebaredian:We have people that run really fast and we really care about how fast they can run, and we go measure that at the Olympics, but just because cars exist or even horses that can run faster, it's just not particularly interesting. What we've assumed all of these years, that there are things that only humans can do. It's something special. So, we've defined artificial intelligence as the things that computers can't do and that humans do. We're inching along over here, occasionally make big steps. We have computers do things that we thought would be impossible. The big one in recent history, it was around 2011 in Geoff Hinton's group at the University of Toronto, there were a few grad students, they took some of our processors, our GPUs that were used for gaming and they were able to use a machine learning, a deep learning algorithm to train, to create a new algorithm to do computer vision. To do classification of images. There's a longstanding contest called ImageNet where all these computer vision experts in the world would have their algorithms compete with each other to see who could get the highest accuracy classification.Look at an image and you say, "This is a dog. This is a blue bicycle." Traditionally extremely hard problem. It's been there since the beginning of computer science. We wanted to solve this problem. At first we thought that it would actually be pretty simple and then we realized it's extremely hard. I mean, I've been coding since I was a little kid. I never believed I would see the day when a computer would be able to tell the difference between a cat and a dog properly. This magic moment happened when these grad students took their gaming processors and they applied an older algorithm, but modified, using the computing available to them. This extreme performance that they could get was a super computer inside their PC, afforded to them by the fact that there's a large market that wants to do computer games. They took that and they created a new kind of algorithm where instead of them writing an algorithm directly, they trained this algorithm. They fed data into it which was only available because the internet had existed long enough for us to have these images to begin with.They shattered all the previous records in terms of accuracy. A few years later these algorithms started to become superhuman, and by superhuman I mean humans when they look at these images are sometimes not accurate. They don't know exactly what kind of dog is in the image, or maybe sometimes they think it's a dog but it's really a hyena in the dark. Humans make mistakes but now the algorithms are superhuman. Before that moment we believed that only humans could do that kind of classification, but that changed. That changed over night. Now computers are actually better than us for doing that. What does that mean? Is that intelligence? It's hard to say but the trend, if you look at it, we keep figuring out new ways to make computers do things that we didn't think was possible. It's happening so fast. If you extrapolate, you imagine maybe at some point we will have machines that are superhuman in a lot of the things that we consider the domain of humans. Emotions, humor, things that we call human. Or, maybe not. Or, maybe they'll be some other thing that we don't quite understand.Ojig Yeretsian:What are you working on these days?Rev Lebaredian:I've been here for almost two decades. I really found my calling when I was around 10 or 11 years old. I saw this image in an [inaudible] magazine of two spheres, these balls, floating above a checkerboard floor. They looked so strange. I'd never seen anything quite like it. I couldn't make out whether it was drawn or whether it was some kind of weird photo of something. I read a little bit more and I realized that it was an algorithm that produced that image. That it wasn't actually drawn by someone, nor was it real, or a photograph of something. I was hooked. This image was created by Turner Whitted, who invented ray tracing back in 1980. He published [inaudible] on this. Luckily I got to work with Turner years later. He was with us until he retired recently at NVIDIA doing some amazing work. I got to tell him that, that the reason I was there at NVIDIA working with him was because of that image.What really excited me was that I could finally draw without having to know how to draw. I could use the tools that I'm good at, which was programming a computer to produce these images.Ojig Yeretsian:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today's guest is Rev Lebaredian, vice president of simulation and technology at NVIDIA. He's speaking about gaming technology, robotics, and artificial intelligence. Rev Lebaredian:So, what is computer graphics, what is a digital image that's been constructed? Basically, computers aren't really drawing or drawing in the traditional sense. What we have that computers do is through simulation. We have some understanding of how light works and the physics of light, and the images that you see are the products of this simulation that's happening around us in the real world. We're trying to approximate that. Light travels through space. It interacts with matter that's present all around us. It reflects, it absorbs, transmits, it refracts, it diffracts. There's all of these things that happen, and so what we do with computer graphics is we try to get as close as possible to what reality is and simulate that. So, those images that we're producing for a video game, or for the Avengers movie many of the people probably just went and saw, it's fundamentally a simulation of the physics of light. When NVIDIA started before I joined, our CEO Jensen Huang who's probably the smartest person I've ever met, he realized how important the computer graphics is, the simulation of light, but also realized that it's important to find a large market that could support the development, the amount of R and D that goes into creating something like this. Previous to then, most of the companies doing really advanced graphics were in fairly niche areas like making movies, or professional CAD design and stuff like that. What we did was we took this to the masses through video games. Realized people love playing video games. What we're creating in a video game is a simulation of some world, and in this world you have to do the simulation of light. That's the graphics that we produce, and you have to do it really fast because it has to be interactive. We do it in a 60th of a second instead of the hours it takes to produce one of the frames in the Avengers movie. We have to simulate physics and the interaction of objects, how they collide with each other. We have to introduce some kinds of AIs to drive the opponents or the virtual cohorts and people you have on your team. You need to collaborate with other people or play against them and deal with the interaction of people in these virtual worlds and large distances between them. They may be on the other side of the globe. They have to interact with each other and make it all feel like they're present there at the moment. Video games are actually the hardest problem, if you think about it, for computer science because you have to do everything in order to make the best experience. One day when we have the ultimate video game experience, it'll feel no different than being in reality here. We're actually going to feel like we're inside it. That's the ultimate game. So what Jensen realized was that there's demand here, and the fundamental technology needed to create that is one that's important for mankind in general, but you need this large market in order to pay for the development of this thing. There's an entertainment purpose over here that's large enough where we can afford every generation GPUs we create. It's $3, $4 billion dollars that we invest in creating that. None of the other single markets can support the development of that, but through video games we get this core, and then we can have adjacence. Simulation for robotics, for autonomous vehicles, for design of products, for collaboration. Maybe one of these days we'll be doing an interview like this inside a virtual reality that's powered by that same gaming technology. So, my team is focused on building the tooling and the fundamental technologies at that layer to create these possibilities with these applications. Whether they be video games or simulation for some of the things I mentioned like robotics and autonomous vehicles. Ojig Yeretsian:What are some of the problems you're trying to solve?Rev Lebaredian:There's a whole lot of them. We still haven't solved rendering. Simulating light is really, really hard, and then doing it fast is even harder. We understand the principles of light, physics, well enough so that we can do approximations but what we have to do is simulate billions and billions of photons bouncing around in a scene, and figure out which ones hit your sensor whether it's your eyeball, or a camera that you're modeling. Doing that extremely fast, in a 60th of a second, it's hard. Even the best that we do for movies, which don't have that restriction, they can afford to have supercomputers. Thousands of computers they put in the data center to calculate those final pixels that you end up seeing in the movie theater. They can spend hours and hours, or even days rendering a single frame. We have to do that in a 60th of a second in real time. So, the first problem that's on my mind always is, how do I take the things that we are doing that take hours for a film and make it so that we can do it in a 60th of a second? Once we can do that, then we can really approach, get close to making a virtual reality that's believable. So that if I stick you in this virtual reality, you might not actually know that you're in it. Ojig Yeretsian:Sounds to me, from all that we're talking about, is that the future is coming faster and earlier, and it's forcing us to contend with our understanding. It's like a culture shift. It's like a paradigm shift for us. AI is already here. There's technology to do gene editing. There's facial recognition, there is amputees with robotic limbs, sensors on the steering wheels for cars that if they sense that you're getting sleepy or your mood is changing, the car will start talking to you to keep you awake and engage you. These are all these that were unimaginable.Rev Lebaredian:There's a lot of technology we're building inside the car, not just for self driving cars, but for assisting drivers. Technologies like that where we have cameras in there that can see if your eyelids are drooping or if you're agitated, and try to help you, it's remarkable.Ojig Yeretsian:To help reduce road rage perhaps. Sebastian Thrun developed machine learning algorithm to help diagnose cancer, and that radiologist's role is going to change as a result of this. That they're not going to be necessarily replaced, but they're going to have augmentation of what you mentioned, with classifying and reading of the CAT scans and the MRIs and the X-rays, and do better classifying, and the radiologist will be more of the cognitive end of thinking about disease. So, how do you see technology impacting our lives and humanity?Rev Lebaredian:Understandably, all of this technology happens so fast it's scary. It's even scary for me even though I'm in the middle of it. It's happening at a pace that mankind hasn't experienced before, so it's hard for us to just digest how fast it's happening, what the repercussions are to each of these things. So, we have to be very careful about how we integrate technology into our lives, and really be thoughtful about it and not just assume that they're by default good. Technology is neutral, but the application of it isn't necessarily, right?Ojig Yeretsian:Yeah.Rev Lebaredian:That being said, one of the biggest fears is that AIs are going to make people obsolete. I just don't see that. It doesn't make sense to me that we would feel that way. A lot of the things that we think about are manufacturing jobs, and stuff that robots can go replace. If you look at it traditionally, those jobs didn't exist to begin with. It's kind of weird to think that the pinnacle of mankind is a human standing in an assembly line, toiling away hour after hour doing mundane, monotonous tasks. We were mechanizing mankind, which is odd. Humans are creative, they're wonderful creatures that are interesting. We should try to do everything possible to make it so that they can reach their potential without having to do the mundane and monotonous things. We were just discussing virtual worlds and simulating them, but one of the bigger problems actually with virtual worlds is the creation part of it. Creating a virtual world is extremely expensive. It takes thousands and thousands of people to construct a really large virtual world experience. One of the most important ones in recent times is a game called Grand Theft Auto V. It was released in 2013, I believe. If I recall, they spent about seven years building this game and they had, at some points, probably 1,000 artists constructing this virtual world. It's still extremely popular. People play it all the time. If you go search on YouTube, you'll find millions of videos of people creating movies inside the Grand Theft Auto world. They take it and they modify it and they insert their own characters, they put Marvel superheroes in there. The reason why it's so popular is because it is the most accessible, the largest virtual world that you can go access that's of high quality, but it took 1,000 artists seven years to create this. It's a micro version of Los Angeles. They call it San Andreas in there, and it's great but it's nowhere near what we really want. Something that's as rich as the real world we live in, and even more, except we've reached the limit. There's only so many hundreds of millions of dollars you can put into creating these virtual worlds. So to construct them, how do we take these thousands of artists and augment them with AI tools, not so we can put them out of business, but so that they can create not just this little micro version of Los Angeles but they create the whole globe? So that you can go walk into any building, into any alley, into any basement and it's detailed, and rich, and filled with all of the objects that you would expect there to be in the real world. It'd be based on maybe the real world. We can take our Google Maps data that exists, satellite data, and use AI to go augment that and build these worlds out.When we introduce these AIs, I don't believe there's going to be a single artist that goes out of business. What we're going to do is we're going to take away the monotonous task of handcrafting every single piece of geometry, every single little thing in there, and I think that's what's going to happen in general. Now, the scary part is when it happens fast. There's this period where you have people who have been doing something for a long time. Sometimes they're not even capable of adjusting to the new thing, so there's pain there. We need to get better at that as a society. How do we make people not dependent on one specific task as their job or career their whole lives? People should be adaptable, and creative, and we should be progressing together and learning to do new things. Ojig Yeretsian:So, you believe that we're not prepared?Rev Lebaredian:I don't think so, and I particularly don't think we're prepared here in the US. We're actually notoriously bad at dealing with new technology. If you look at it in the political landscape, I don't think we have leaders in politics that truly, really understand what's happening as we speak, and there's no plan for this. Hopefully that'll change soon. There are of course smart people in government, in our various agencies and whatnot, but just in terms of leadership you could see it any time congress calls tech leaders to-Ojig Yeretsian:Fly them out there [crosstalk].Rev Lebaredian:Summon them out there to talk. There seems to be no understanding or even respect for what it is they're talking about.Ojig Yeretsian:The European Union has the General Data Protections Regulation. Article 22 that states Europeans have a right to know how an automated decision involving them was reached and a right to know how an automated process is using their personal information. Is this something that you welcome?Rev Lebaredian:Well, I welcome governments thinking about these things. I don't know if the particular way they've implemented is the best, but at least they're doing something. We comply with all those, and as far as I can tell so far there hasn't been any negative repercussions except we had to do extra work to go comply with them. All of those things are important, but I think something is necessary and society should be engaged. These are important questions.Ojig Yeretsian:There's a lot of concern that machines are making decisions instead of people, and that there's an inherent bias embedded within algorithms. Is this something you encounter in your work?Rev Lebaredian:The algorithms that we deal with usually are not probably the ones that you're thinking about there. We're not Facebook or Google where we're dealing with peoples' personal information and social media. So, bias to us means something else. It's this car thinks there's a lane to the left here versus to the right. Something like that. That being said, I'm actually less worried about machine bias than I am human bias. Human bias we definitely know exists and we know it's really bad. Machines might have bias right now, but we know how to fix that, and we know how to test it, and we know how to measure it. I don't think we know how to fix humans yet as far as their biases are concerned. I can imagine that sometime in the future, maybe not so far future, we'll have judges and arbitrators that are AIs that make decisions. I trust them to make a decision on a criminal case involving a minority holding up a liquor store or something like that over most of the judges that are currently in place, and probably do it in a far less biased way. Ojig Yeretsian:I've heard the example of in a hospital exam room, where a machine assisted healthcare is actually reducing the numbers of hospital acquired infections and sepsis. I had never heard it on the more moral and [inaudible] realm such as the judicial system.Rev Lebaredian:Yeah, we trust humans to be arbiters of things that they probably have no business doing. I'd rather have an algorithm or math to decide these things.Ojig Yeretsian:What could go wrong?Rev Lebaredian:The work that I'm doing is actually to help us solve these problems before they cause harm. Simulation is actually the key to do that. So, one of the most direct examples is a simulation we're doing for autonomous vehicles. Before we put these cars out in the road and really sell them to people, we need to make sure that they're going to work well in every possible environment and every possible situation. With other crazy humans around them, driving around doing crazy things. There's actually no good ethical way to do a lot of the tests we would really like to do. How are you going to be sure that the self driving car doesn't run over a parent pushing their baby in a baby carriage when they go out into the road without looking both ways? Can't test that in real life. We can try to mock it up with some cardboard cutouts of those humans or something like that, but it's not the same thing.Ojig Yeretsian:Yeah, it's scary.Rev Lebaredian:So, all this work that we're doing to construct these virtual worlds and do them in real time, that ends up helping us here. We need to put humans inside these worlds that we test our cars in, and have them drive millions of miles and fool these cars. We're building a brain for this car that perceives the world and decides to act upon it. Our simulators are virtual reality for those car brains. We produce these graphics and pipe those pixels directly into the sensor inputs on the computer that's running inside the car, and the car, if we do our job right, doesn't really know the difference between reality and the virtual reality we're giving it. So, if we can simulate it beforehand, the better we can do these simulations, the higher fidelity simulations, we have a better chance of averting some of the really tragic things that might happen. We can all imagines what happens if an autonomous vehicle goes awry, but I'd actually argue that we already know what happens when humans go awry. There's plenty of-Ojig Yeretsian:Examples.Rev Lebaredian:Plenty of bad drivers. I'm sure you've experienced some of them driving out here earlier.Ojig Yeretsian:Absolutely.Rev Lebaredian:So again, I think in a lot of these realms, best chance is to make algorithms that are less biased and not as flawed as humans.Ojig Yeretsian:How might this create a better world?Rev Lebaredian:That's a good question in general, and what does that mean even? A better world. I think there's some simple metrics of better worlds. They have less babies dying. That would be a good thing. People living longer, more people with enough food in their bellies so they don't have to worry about it. People getting educated so that they can keep their minds busy. Without technological progress, we wouldn't be where we are today. I know things seem pretty crazy, but it wasn't that long ago that a good portion of our babies used to just die at birth, and the mothers along with them. We take it for granted now. Babies are born early, like my sons, they were born weeks early. That would have been a death sentence for them before, but they're alive and kicking right now and thriving because of technology. Everything that we're doing, there's the dangerous aspect of it, but generally the world has always gotten better as a result of it.Ojig Yeretsian:What's exciting for you in terms of new technologies? What do we have to look forward to? Rev Lebaredian:Well, in the near term the things that we were just discussing, the things that I've been working on for the past few decades. In terms of virtual worlds and computer graphics, I feel like we haven't realized the full potential to them. We've been primarily using them for entertainment, which is great, but we're almost there where we're going to start weaving these virtual realities into our daily lives. 40, 50 years ago the average person didn't have a video camera. The average person barely had a camera, and if they did, it wasn't something that they could use all the time. To go get film developed, it was expensive and cumbersome. You look at our children now and they're all videographers, they're all photographers, and they're creating content and worlds themselves. Everybody is. I want to do the same thing for 3D worlds, for virtual worlds. I want to get to the point where my grandchildren hopefully, hopefully before but at least my grandchildren, are going to be able to construct virtual worlds that are more complex, richer, and more beautiful than what Grand Theft Auto has done or what we saw with Avengers: Endgame.By using whatever device is there or just by speaking, I want to see my grandchild step into a virtual world and say, "I want a forest here," and a forest appears. "I want a stream with a unicorn jumping over the stream." Just describe it and have this world unfold in front of them. Once we get to that point, I can't even imagine the things that people are going to do with it. So, that's the thing that gets me excited.Ojig Yeretsian:How can folks get more information about your innovative work?Rev Lebaredian:Well, you can definitely go to our webpage and all our social media feeds. NVIDIA.com or find us on Facebook and Twitter. If you're a developer or into the technology directly, we have Developer.NVIDIA.com where we provide most of the technology I've been speaking about directly for free for people to download and go incorporate into their tools. One of the most interesting things I've ever worked on, and my passion right now, is a new project that we just announced that we kind of hinted at about a month or two ago. We call it NVIDIA Omniverse. It's a platform that we're building that allows for a lot of the things that I've been talking about here. We want to connect various tools in different domains whether you're an architect, or a product designer, or a video game creator, or a director for a movie. All of these domains have different tools that they use to describe, things that are actually quite similar. They're constructing objects, and worlds, and scenes.So what we're building is a platform where all of these can come connected together, and we can allow people to create these worlds together using the tools that are specific to their domain. We showed an example of this. We called it the Google Docs of 3D. Just like how you can go and edit a spreadsheet with your colleagues or friends simultaneously, we want to provide these and we are starting to provide this for people creating 3D worlds. So, you and I can be in completely different parts of the globe using our own tools. You might be using a tool to paint textures on a model, and I could be using a tool to construct a building using something like Revit from Autodesk, which many architects use. We can be collaborating together, building these worlds together. So, you can go check that out if you search for NVIDIA Omniverse. We're doing some cool stuff.Ojig Yeretsian:Thank you so much, Rev.You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll see you again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Vincent Medina and Louis Trevino, founders and chefs of Cafe Ohlone by Mak-'amham in Berkeley speak about their vision and experience with sharing traditional Ohlone food. They are reclaiming and reviving native ways while serving only pre-colonial foods.Transcript:Ojig Yeretsian:This is Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host [inaudible 00:00:12], and today I'll be speaking with Vincent Medina and Louis Trevino, founders and chefs of Cafe Ohlone by Makamham, a restaurant serving traditional Ohlone foods located right here in Berkeley at 2430 Bancroft way.Vincent Medina is a member of the Muwekma Ohlone tribe from the East Bay and Louis Trevino is a member of the Rumsen Ohlone tribe, which originated in the Monterey Bay area.Together they now run Cafe Ohlone by Makamham, where they serve traditional foods and a very welcoming and engaging environment. I got to experience their cafe for the first time recently and was impressed by the design of the space, the meaningful exchanges, and the delicious food.Welcome to the show, Louis and Vincent. Thank you for being here.Vincent Medina: Thank you. [foreign language 00:01:01]. In our Chochenyo language, that means hello.Ojig:Your cafe is receiving a lot of positive attention and great press. Tell us what inspired you to open Cafe Ohlone.Vincent:Both Louis and myself, we grew up very proud of our Ohlone identities that was instilled in us from our families. Our grandparents had a lot of influence in our lives and our great grandparents. We saw how valuable and how meaningful our culture is.Our identities were able to be carried on, and in my family, our connection to our land has also been able to be carried on. In my family here in the East Bay, no generation of our people have ever moved away from this space. There's a lot of power in that. We see how hard that our families have worked to keep our culture alive, but we also know that because colonization hit us really hard here in the Bay Area, especially here in the East Bay with the urbanity that surround us, it meant that not everything could be carried on naturally because of very forced oppression that came as a result of people coming here, invading our homes and trying to erase the original culture of this place.However, our ancestors and our elders, the people who are even alive in our families today, were able to carry on as much as they could and the amount of what they are able to carry on it's amazing, and it gives us a lot of pride to know that in spite of those hardships, these things have kept going.The ancestors of our community found ways to keep what wasn't able to be passed down because of how hard again, colonization affected us, they found ways to keep those things alive as well through old ethnographic recordings that they wrote and recorded in the 1920s and the 1930s that gave us the hope that one day we would be able to have those things again in our lives.Louis and myself, we decided to create this organization called Makamham, which means, our food in Chochenyo language, because we wanted to be able to recognize those sacrifices from the people before us that they made. That one day when things were better and safer, that all these things could come back out again and we could have them in our lives and they could be passed down again to Ohlone people, and our elders can see these things respected again as well.We want to acknowledge that this work, it's not just being done by us, but it's being done by many people in our community. Many people who are doing this work quietly. A lot of times people don't get that acknowledgement and we want to give that acknowledgement to our people and to acknowledge that it's not just us doing this work, but we're part of this work and we can only do this work because of those people before us who allow us to have these things.It's disrespectful to those people not to be able to carry on our culture. We also want to create spaces, physical spaces, where we can see our identity reflected outside of our homes. It can be isolating and lonely when you're Ohlone growing up and you don't see any reminders that you exist or that anybody cares about you or wants to know about you outside of your home, even though you're right in your homeland.We wanted to be able to create the space because growing up we didn't have these things, but now the Ohlone kids who are growing up, they get to see these things and they get to go to a restaurant where their culture is reflected and their food is served.While it might be a small space right now, it represents a lot of hopes and a lot of dreams that our people have had for a long time and it also represents a lot of vision and to where our future is going as well.Ojig:Would you like to add anything to that, Louis?Louis Trevino:It's just that for our families, those living elders, people who are around today who remember these foods being eaten in their childhoods, they're the same generation that remembers also hearing our language when they were young people, who remember seeing those cooking methods, whose mothers and grandmothers took them out to gather plants for food.They're also the generation of people who, for many reasons, we're not able to learn to speak our language, even though they heard it. Who were not taught the proper names of these plants always, and that knowledge was not passed down to them. In the case of my family, specifically because that older generation of people was trying very hard to also protect their children from the harm that the world around us was putting on us.By doing this work, by bringing these foods back, by simultaneously continuing to work on reviving our languages, by bringing our family into this work and feeding them, we're also repairing that part of our family's history, that loss.By feeding our elders, we're also feeding their parents and also feeding their children and their grandchildren and their great grandchildren, so that we can all have these things again, and so that harm that was done can be undone by us.Ojig:Before Makamham, where would one go to eat native food in the East Bay or the Bay Area?Vincent:Before we started our organization, there were a few foods that our people were still continuing to eat. Especially, for our elders, because they reminded them of foods that they ate when they were a young person.I started to talk to my grandmother about foods that my great grandmother would gather, and she would tell me all these stories, Louis too, she would tell stories to him about how she would gather these foods, where she would gather them.Because she's in the city, she would even have to gather them sometimes that when she was waiting for the bus at the Hayward bus station, her native plants that she loved, that she would find there, and you think about that, there's just something that's so cool about that thought of like resilience right there. Like, this strong, Ohlone lady, right there in her home, right where that's in the same area that where she's gathering this that our ancestors have always lived in, right along [inaudible 00:06:48], [inaudible] creek is right there in that area, in this urban setting, waiting for a bus in 20th century at that point and still gathering plants.Probably, putting them in her purse right there. There's just something that's so cool about that with shows like how people just never give up these things no matter what's around us, how stubborn we are and how proud we are. Those are the people that I always look up to.I know that in our family though, only a few of these foods really could have ... They were continued. Not many of them though were, just because of how hard things impacted us here. How accessible is it to go and gather our foods when we're in the middle of the city?All of the inner East Bay where our people are raised, which is right in our traditional homeland as well is urban. It's definitely hard to be able to have access to these foods. And so, we wanted to be able to change that and that's why we created this organization before we even started with Cafe Ohlone.We named it Makamham, because again, that means our food, and we named it this intentionally because we believe these are our collective foods. These are foods that belong to our people. This is also representative of the fact that Ohlone people, our tribe, we don't just want one thing back. We don't just want just simply language back or just simply our stories back or just one particular item, but all these things are interconnected with one another.The truth is, we want everything back, because everything that was taken from us, was taken from us against our wishes. Those things that couldn't be carried on, we want to see all those things come back, including our land. Yes, that's the truth as well.One thing that I try to work for and envision with Louis and with our people is what it looks to have a holistic revival and a reawakening, where through being in our homeland and gathering these foods, using our language alongside of the gathering methods of this food, speaking our language to one another, we reconnect with those old villages that our ancestors directly came from where we gather for an example, the Yerba Buena that we make tea. That's right in an area that where my great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother was born. All the way back.As we do these things together collectively, it inches us back into that traditional world, and we see how much our people have always loved these things and it also is a reminder that when we are given the chance to be able to nurture our traditional culture, ever since colonization has come here, our people have always chosen to go back to traditional culture whenever given the chance. Right now, we're seeing that happen again in a modern day form and it's really exciting.Ojig:If you're just tuning in, this is Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show at ALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today we're talking with Vincent Medina and Louis Trevino of Cafe Ohlone by Makamham, a restaurant serving traditional Oglone foods.Vincent:We want to be able to just be mindful that this food that we're serving, and we say our food is full of justice as well, because our food, it's connected to helping people better understand that Ohlone people are here, that our culture is strong, that our culture is rooted in this place that we're in right now, and that our people will never leave here.When people understand that we're here and they understand how rich what we have is and how much we care about these things, and after they're empowered with that truth, then they have no reason to not stand with our people. And so, this is the need to be able to have allies with us, to be able to work for a better future that includes Ohlone people central to the story here in our homeland, and this is why we're doing this work as well.The primary goal of this has always been to empower our community, not just to have these traditional foods back, but also for the wellness of our people. We know that when the government imposed foods on our people, they were often foods that cause great harm to our health. We believe that when we take out those things that aren't good for our bodies and eat the things that our bodies recognize that our bodies get stronger. When our bodies are stronger, we're more capable of fighting back against the injustices that we face.We also believe as well that culture is central to keeping our identity strong and that when we have a robust, full culture, with many different things and we are also able to adapt new things in our culture over time, that represents a living identity. That also is able to keep our culture strong and also able to be carried on within these modern times that we're in as well.Ojig:You touched on a number of aspects of language and culture and violence and healing and repairing. It's just such a rich space. Also, a different kind of space that embodies some of these elements that you value, your vision and the context in which you're innovating.It includes words and pronunciation of certain words in Chochenyo. You also use Chochenyo phrases and language with diners at the cafe. Why is language so important?Vincent:Our language first of all has been very, very revived, and we're extremely proud of that revival. It's something that collectively we're excited to see happen and we know our language will never go to sleep again. We never say that it died, but we say it was sleeping, and it was sleeping for about two generations.With the right effort, our people breathe life into it, and now it's awakened again. Now, it's spoken with fluency. I speak it. People in my community, young people are growing up speaking the language right now, and elders as well.Louis:Our language in my family was used until at least the mid 1930s, and that might be true also of the Rumsen language in general, but when we work with language documentation to look for information about our languages, those things were recorded in the 1920s and 30s.There's one woman today in my extended family who heard our language when she was a young girl. She is in her upper 80s now, Gloria Castro is her name. She is my great grandfather's first cousin, and this beautiful woman, she just loves what we are doing because it is exactly what she has wanted to see for a very long time.In the early 1990s, she visited the language archives here at UC Berkeley. During the first, what became breath of life, and she's always been hungry for that information, for things that she remembered seeing and hearing, but not understanding from her childhood.The people that she heard using our language were her grandparents and her mother, and her mother never used it after her grandparents passed away. She remembers hearing it at these family times when all of the family would get together for weeks at a time and all of the adults would go into the house and all the children were made to stay outside of the house, and there was a woman who kept watch and made sure the kids didn't get too close.She does know that they were using our language and that she heard things. She remembers them preparing food in our old style, earth ovens, at the creek side there, which is a very old method of cooking. She remembers being chased out of her grandfather's garden, and this is when she very clearly heard our language, when he yelled at her and her cousins to get out of the garden.She had this memory for years. She was six years old when he did that, and that's the phrase that she remembers, and she says that she remembers exactly that sequence of sounds because she and her cousins looked at each other and they laughed because they didn't understand what their grandpa was saying. She says that laughter imprinted that memory in her mind, and she's been looking for that expression ever since, and she's always wondered and she's had times when she doubted what she remembers hearing.But, during the last breath of life, last summer, in the language archive here on campus, we were reading through Alfred Kroeber's notebook from 1902 where he records a relative of ours, [inaudible 00:14:50], and Gloria wanted to read every single line out loud, and so that's what we did. We spent a couple of hours doing that with her. We came across [inaudible 00:14:59], and we just had to stop everything, because Gloria finally found the expression that her grandfather used, and she could hear his voice in her ear, she said.There it was. It was this confirmation of all of those experiences that she had as a young girl was confirmed and now she knows that he was telling her to get out of there.Ojig:It took 80 years. it's amazing.Louis:There were the sounds. These are why our language is so connected to our foods, because those same people who were using our language, were the same people preparing our foods, were the same people who we are sure prayed in our traditional way, who did all of these things and kept all of these things close to themselves, because these things all come together.When we work to revive our language, it's very organic that that work leads to the revival of all of these things.Vincent:That's right. One of the powerful things about language, it's able to convey a worldview that's there. Our world view, I feel, is embedded within our language. Helps people who are coming to Cafe Ohlone better understand that this place was never a new world. This place was never a blank slate, but this place has culture, it has language, identity, nations that are here already, has a great food, great diet, great people, all of these great things that are already here.One of the most harmful things about this narrative that exists that we're trying to change is, it almost seems that anything that's introduced here can just be called Californian. People talk about Californian cuisine, but it's made up of nothing that's California, nothing that's native to this space. Just because there's avocados or something that's seasonal or fresh doesn't mean it's native to California. That doesn't mean it's California and cuisine.We believe that when people can understand what the true identity of this place specifically is, and I also want to add that what's native to us here in the East Bay isn't native to [inaudible 00:16:51], down south in Los Angeles or other areas, and we're all different here in California. That's one of those beautiful things, but by focusing here on East Bay Ohlone culture, and I'm aware, in Louis' family's area, in [inaudible] Rumsen Ohlone culture, we believe that we can show people the specifics of these things that helps people better understand and respect our identities.Ojig:What is the website address?Vincent:The website address, it's makamham.com. We did that intentionally because we believe that people can learn how to say Makamham. It's not that hard. Makamham. It's three sounds, and those sounds, they mean our food. Ohlone people have had to learn a lot of really difficult words over time, and so you know we believe that people can put in a little effort to say [inaudible 00:17:37].But, then Cafe Ohlone is also there as well. Cafe Ohlone is like the public face of this work. That's also the cafe space that we run over in Berkeley, but the website is makamham.com.Ojig:On the website you can get information also about the price of brunch, [inaudible 00:00:17:54], lunch and dinner. These prices include much more than just Ohlone food.Can you walk us through what a diner's experience would be like?Vincent:We always prepare everything fresh the day that we are going to have our events. We are always cooking with only what's seasonal, what's available to us, and we try to gather as much as we can here in the East Bay. If we can't gather it, we source it. The same ingredients from just a little bit further out. Ideally. Here in California.We never want people to think that we're just a standard restaurant where people are just going to go and just be able to consume food and walk out without any thought. We're slow at Cafe Ohlone because we want people to understand the intention as well as the purpose of the work that we're doing there. We say we want to elevate people's consciousness to help people better understand what [inaudible] here in the East Bay is, what contemporary Ohlone identity looks like, but also how delicious our foods are.Like what I was saying previously, we believe that when people are empowered with knowledge about how robust the living Ohlone culture is, that they'll respect us in a different way.Because of that, every meal that we have, we bring people in, and before anybody pays or before the meal starts, we ask everybody to sit down.Everybody sits down and we have [inaudible] that are out. They wrap themselves in one. We have all of these beautiful native aesthetics that are out, our baskets, our gaming pieces, the raw ingredients of the plants that we use, the salt that our tribe gathers and native plants and flowers that are on the tables and abalone shells and huge basket pattern that's painted in goat milk on one of our back walls with abalone adornments hanging down.People just sit there and look at everything. And so, for so many people, it's unfamiliar and new. We understand that that's unfamiliar for a lot of people, but we want also to help people better understand these things without making them feel bad for not knowing these things.Instead of just pointing fingers and making people feel bad about not knowing these things, we want to be able to help people understand them in a way that's really caring and loving, because to us, those are the things that we grew up with, which is learning to talk about these things with a lot of love and care.We also believe that when we're preparing these foods and when we're serving them, we only want the best words and intentions to be around them, because in our belief as well, if you're making food and you're in a bad place or you're serving food in a bad place, that's going to come into that food as well.You leave the drama out at Cafe Ohlone, right? No drama, no problems, and it's just good intentions. When we come back there, it's just celebration about our identity, telling people about why these foods are being eaten, but talking honestly and candidly about the fact that these foods weren't in our family's lives for a couple of generations because of our history, because colonization. Not because our people didn't care about these things, but because of the abuses that our people had to endure. Needlessly endure.As people understand these things, then we introduce the ingredients. We talk about, we try to change the narrative of how people understand our culture, because we talk about our history honestly but then we talk after that about our survival and the fact that we can have these things again, that we can be able to keep these things going, which shows triumph, which shows victory.That's what we want people to understand, is to associate our culture less and less with tragedy, but more and more with victory. We want people to look at Ohlone people and to say, "Those people are strong. They survived all of that and they're still doing this, they're still in their place, they're still eating these foods. They're still speaking their language."When people understand that, they view us in a different way. After that, we say a prayer, and we always make a plate at every meal that we have for our ancestors. We do this intentionally, and this is something that when we make these foods we do at home as well, because these foods, we're only able to know them because of our ancestors. We're only able to have these things in our life because of the strength that those people before us.Before we eat anything, we all pray. I'll share a prayer, Louis shares a prayer in Rumsen, and me in Chochenyo, and we pray to what these foods represent, and that starts off, this meal, this experience, on a note that this is different.When you slow down, then you can really taste these first flavors of the East Bay. We always ask that elders come up first, because that's something that we value in our culture. After we eat and we have music, contemporary indigenous music that's there, we answer questions. Then, usually, we'll bring out some traditional games, and we'll play some games and then at the end of the events, we'll always have a call to action.Ojig:What are some of the ingredients in the Ohlone foods you're serving?Vincent:We're always making seasonal dishes, and so right now we're cooking a lot with mushrooms, because mushrooms are in heavy abundance as well as hazelnuts, which the season just recently ended as well at winter time.Right now, we're also with the earliest growths of the native greens that are coming up. We've been gathering those. And so, I'll just walk you through a few of our foods just based on seasons. Right now, for an example, we're having these delicious, delicious, delicious mushroom hazelnut muffins, where we get black trumpet mushrooms and candy cap mushrooms and [inaudible 00:23:16], and we saute those with bay laurel that we gather up in our village sites and in walnut oil and pickle weed from the East Bay shoreline. The salty succulent that we chop up, then our tribe gathers the salt from those old salt ponds that our ancestors, the same exact salt areas that our people have always gathered salt from.We still go out there with digging sticks and chisel away at that salt and we add that to that mushroom mixture. We grind down the California hazelnuts and make a hazelnut flour, and then we bake that hazelnut flour with some dried porcini, [inaudible] base salts. We add those mushrooms, cook one of those edible flowers that are coming up right now on top of it, bake that. Serve that with an all native green salad of watercress and Indian lettuce that's coming up right now after the heavy rains, with that base salt and gooseberries, blackberries. A dressing of walnut oil and bay laurel, popped [inaudible] seeds and pinon nuts, roasted hazelnuts that we roast every morning before we have our events.We'll have a vanilla chia seed porridge with blackberry sauce and hazelnuts that we crush a mortar right in front of the people who are dining, and we'll usually have like something like an acorn bread as well. A traditional bread that is one of our most traditional foods. A bread that's made out of the acorn soup that gets cooked down and has this crisp outside and this sweet jelly like pudding inside.We'll have smoked venison and mushroom skewers, there's a hunter who hunts up a just a little bit north of here in the Pomo area, and often will be gifted venison. We'll butcher that and smoke it for hours and hours until it's soft and just has all of those wonderful smoke taste from the Oakwood.We add the bay wood as we're smoking it, and we'll smoke the mushroom skewers as well, that's something that we've been doing recently and salmon that's smoked from Enterprise Rrancheria that's gifted to us.All of these foods are flavors our ancestors would recognize, and I quickly would like to say, just in our language what these foods are so you understand that we have words. We have [foreign language 00:25:20] in the Rumsen language, [foreign language 00:25:22], the deer meatballs, [foreign language 00:25:26], the blackberry sauce. [foreign language 00:25:28], the acorn flatbread. There's [foreign language 00:25:31], the mushrooms, [foreign language 00:25:34], the popped [foreign language 00:25:35] seeds. [foreign language 00:25:37], the berries and the nuts. [foreign language 00:25:43], that's mushroom soup cow. [foreign language 00:25:44], that's bitter greens with flowers, popped [foreign language 00:25:54] seeds and berries. [foreign language 00:25:57] quail eggs. [foreign language 00:25:59], sweet acorn. [foreign language 00:26:03], the sweet a seed cakes.These are foods our ancestors recognize, and when we eat these foods we commune with them.Ojig:Since the Ohlone are the original peoples of the land on which the cafe is located, I would hope that you're being embraced and supported by Berkeley and East Bay communities.How are folks responding?Vincent:Extraordinarily. Yes, we're ecstatic to see the response from the community and it also gives us a lot of hope to what's possible. 10 years ago, this wouldn't have been thinkable.Ojig:Moving forward, what would you like to inspire with Cafe Ohlone?Vincent:Well, we know it will keep going, but we would like to see it expand as well. Can you imagine having, we have all of these beautiful place names all around the Bay Area and all around the East Bay that are Oakland, it's [foreign language 00:26:48], and if you want to go over to to where we live at, it's hulking. If you can imagine [foreign language 00:26:53], [foreign language 00:26:53] and [foreign language 00:26:54], [foreign language 00:26:56] in San Jose that are run by our tribal people, it would be such an exciting thing.That's a big dream. One of the things I always imagine, and Louis and I talk about this a lot, is getting one of those old warehouses over in West Oakland or Emeryville, making that a cultural space for our people, but also having a large restaurant space there as well a few days a week for the public, but also making that like an urban rancher here as well for our people. Having a space where we can go and have language lessons, have basketry, have all these things that our people want to see in our world, but we always want to keep that small space that we have in the back because it represents a lot for us as well.Ojig:I want to ask also, food sovereignty seems to be a large part of your space. Can you elaborate on your role in this movement and what you'd like to see moving forward with the food sovereignty movement?Vincent:I'm a member of the [inaudible] Ohlone tribe and also a councilman representing my family's lineage and our tribal government as well, and this work that we're doing with Makamham and with Cafe Ohlone, it's very much connected on a larger scale. It's specific to us and we're doing this work for our people, but there's also a larger movement that's happening here, which is touching on many other indigenous communities, which is about decolonization, but also returning back to our traditional foods.Louis and I, we're a part of this organization called Slow Foods Turtle Island, which works on an international level with other indigenous people to protect our food sovereignty and also working with agencies at the United Nations and with Slow Foods international.It's really powerful, because there's challenges that we have to be able to gather these foods. We hope that we will be able to see our people though, our Ohlone people, specific here in the East Bay [inaudible] Ohlone people, be able to have more access to gathering, be able to have more access to going into those areas and gathering our foods without restrictions, because right now there are still numerous restrictions that exist against our people for gathering.Ojig:How can folks get more information about your important work on the cafe?Vincent:Our primary way of communicating our messages is through our Instagram, @makamham. Our Instagram, we specifically have chosen just because of we like to be able to share beautiful photos of our food and the work that we're doing. Instagram has just been a really clear platform for us. We're also on Twitter at @makamham, and our website address, once again, it's makamham.com. All of the information about our work and also our hours are listed there.Ojig:Thank you Louis and Vincent for talking with us today and for your work.Vincent:Thank you, [inaudible 00:29:32].Ojig:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University.Thanks for tuning in. We'll be back again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Nina Meijers discusses FoodBytes! (San Francisco event showcasing startups disrupting the food and agriculture space) and former FoodBytes! alumna Claire Schlemme, CEO & founder of Oakland-based Renewal Mill that is fighting food waste by upcycling okara.Transcripts:Lisa Kiefer:This is Method to the Madness, a public payer show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer and today I'm speaking with Nina Meyers of Foodbytes and Claire Schlemme, CEO and founder of Oakland based and alumni startup of Foodbytes Renewal Mill. Welcome to the program.Nina Meyers:Thank you.Lisa Kiefer:I'm particularly interested in what's coming up next week with Foodbytes, but first of all, Nina Meyers, tell us what you do for Foodbytes, how it got started, what's the history and what's the problems that you're trying to solve.Nina Meyers:Sure, happy to and thanks for having us. Pleasure to be here. Foodbytes quite simply is a pitch competition and networking platform for sustainable food and AG innovators. So it started four plus years ago. We're actually about to do our 15th Foodbytes, which is in San Francisco, which is where it all began. So it's founded by Rabobank. Rabobank is one of the largest food and agriculture banks in the world and in North America, our clients are some of the largest and mid sized food and AG companies. We started to see that we're working with a lot of our corporates and they're facing a lot of challenges in innovation where we're all faced with this idea that we're going to have 10 billion people on the planet by 2050. We need to feed those people and we need to do so efficiently. There's lots of environmental challenges and there's a lot of startups that are starting to create nimble ways and test and experiment and are basically building technologies and products that are solving those challenges.So we, four and a half years ago said, we want to do something that's just for food and AG. There's lots of pitch opportunities out there for tech startups. There's lots of things that are cross-disciplinary, but we said, let's bring our knowledge to the table. Let's bring our corporates to the table and investors that are just looking at food and AG start to create an ecosystem where those startups can make the connections to help scale their technologies and on the converse side of that that the corporates can start to build relationships and really start to think about these ways that innovation is happening to bring it to their own businesses.Lisa Kiefer:Tell me how it operates. Is it a competition?Nina Meyers:Yeah, so it is a competition in its most essential form. We look through hundreds of applications. We score them and we come to 15 startups that we select to come and pitch from all around the world and we're looking at on the product side, on the tech side, on the agriculture tech sides. We're looking at like AG tech, food tech and food products and they basically have a two day experience jam packed, but we basically bring together our network of mentors in the room, experts in legal deal structuring, branding, PR and they have intimate mentor sessions with them. They get to build camaraderie and relationships with one another as the entrepreneurs. They get to practice their pitches for the judges that are going to judge them the next day and they really have this full day of just like, it's kind of like a mini business school. Learn as much as you can.Lisa Kiefer:Do you find that many of these startups don't have business skills?Nina Meyers:I wouldn't say that. I think it's like you're just trying to build your business day in and day out and you have to focus on that and this, we're doing this one day kind of takes them out of it a little bit and that they're like, "Oh I've been a tech company. I've been really focused on how do I build a relationships with corporates or how do I build the MVP of my technology, but I wasn't thinking about the brand. I wasn't thinking about how I should structure my series B round when I'm fundraising, when I'm just in this infancy of my seed stage." They start to just have a lot of information around them.Lisa Kiefer:It would seem like creativity doesn't have to go hand in hand with business skills. I mean getting the right people together.Nina Meyers:To an extent. It depends on which entrepreneur, which startup, but I would say that they kind of say, "I took a day out of my life, my building, my business life, but I got to get all these different intros and different insights and also of course the insights from the other entrepreneurs that are there who are facing similar challenges, building similar businesses." So they do that and then there's a pitch day, which is a traditional pitch competition. There's hundreds of people in the room. It's focused on investment, but it's also focused on Rabobank bringing our corporates into the room so that they can pitch for these potential partners.There's a lot of media there covering it to see what's kind of the cutting edge of food and AG innovation and then what we started with was this pitch competition. Now it's built into two days and we started to build a continuous community around that. We say, "Hey, do you want to meet with X, Y and Z?" They're really interested in thinking about partnering with you. We have a database of thousands of startups and we're always thinking about how can we continue to build relationships?Lisa Kiefer:Do you sometimes do that with those who maybe didn't make it, but they have a great idea? Maybe they don't have the right skills but you match them up with somebody else?Nina Meyers:Yep, absolutely. So we have a database of thousands of companies that have applied, but we also, we have 250 now alumni of the platform. We're looking at everyone who's ever sort of come across our radar who is an innovator in this space. So that's what happens over the two days, but we kind of say that it's a discovery platform, but it's also like the beginning of a relationship where Rabobank can kind of be this connector, be this matchmaker, be this champion for both sides of-Lisa Kiefer:Tell me about the judges. How many and who are these people?Nina Meyers:They change. Every food rates has had a different grouping of judges. I think we've had something like 75. It's probably closer to a hundred and mentors, but essentially they're some of our sponsors and partners. They're legal experts who work with startups to help them structure their deals and figure out how to engage with investors. They are actual investors in need of a CPG space or on the tech side. They are sometimes policy experts who are really focused on sustainable food policy and-Lisa Kiefer:So some academics?Nina Meyers:Yeah, academics. Exactly. So literally we've had judges sort of from all across the board. We've also started having an alumni come on as a judge to sort of speak from that first hand perspective of this is what happened when I was there. We have-Lisa Kiefer:That's a great idea.Nina Meyers:Yeah, we have Abby Ramadan from Impact Vision who is an alumni of our platform and she's been very involved. She's also based out here. We want the judging panel to be able to provide varying expertise.Lisa Kiefer:Does it always happen in the same city?Nina Meyers:It's global. We've been in San Francisco the most. We've been in Silicon Valley the most. This is our sixth San Francisco edition, but we've been in Australia. We've been in London. We've been in the Netherlands, New York. We're headed to Chicago in September. Oh, we were in Boulder. We were in Austin, but yeah, we're-Lisa Kiefer:So how many times a year are we talking?Nina Meyers:So we were doing three to four for awhile globally for 2020 and 2019 we're doing two so that we can really focus on doing more and providing more value for everyone in our ecosystem and the in between.Lisa Kiefer:So this year you have how many participants?Nina Meyers:We have 15 companies.Lisa Kiefer:And two are from the Bay Area?Nina Meyers:Yes.Lisa Kiefer:One of them I'm particularly interested in. That's SnapDNA.Nina Meyers:Yes. We talk a little bit about some of the challenges that the companies are solving and one of them is sort of this idea of transparency. It's this idea of we all know about recalls that are happening in food all the time and there's a lot of opacity around what happens from the fields to your plate or wherever it comes from. So there are companies, there are a lot of innovation in this space that's happening around food safety and pathogen detection. So that SnapDNA is one of those companies that's really creating a real time test for folks in the food supply chain to get that information on whether food is safe or whether it has certain pathogens and we've seen a number of different sort of innovators come through that are focused on this, but this is something as a point I just made that's very, very well event to the corporate focus in the room.Lisa Kiefer:That can save so much money.Nina Meyers:It's about efficiency. It's obviously about safety. It's about consumer trust, which we know consumers want safer food, more sustainable food, healthier, more nutritious, cleaner and they're willing to pay more for it as well. So this is something that's important to all those players.Lisa Kiefer:Okay, and the other one is Planetariums and they're out of Palo Alto. Do you know much about them?Nina Meyers:Yes I do and the Planetariums is an up cycling company, which what does that mean? So it's and Claire I'm sure will talk more about this, but it is a waste stream that's up cycled into a new food essentially. So they are taking defatted seeds, which are a byproduct of the vegetable oil process and they are basically making that into a very nutritious protein rich flour. So they just announced today that they got, that they just raised a $750000 seed round and one of their investors is Barilla, which is the largest pasta producer in the world. So for a company like Barilla, to just give you an example is looking at this up cycling space and saying, "Yeah, of course we make pasta out of wheat, but we know that consumers want different things. Consumers want chickpea pasta. They want gluten free pasta. They still want traditional pasta, but let's look at ways that we can really provide something that consumers are starting to relate to.Lisa Kiefer:That's interesting. I've had a couple of your alumni on this show and one of them was Andrew Brentano who does cricket protein.Nina Meyers:Yes.Lisa Kiefer:And the other people were in perfect produce and they also, we're trying to save money by getting rid of waste in the food marketplace.Nina Meyers:Yep.Lisa Kiefer:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Nina Meyers of FoodBytes and Claire Schlemme, CEO and founder of Oakland based Renewal Mill. So I want to kind of shift over here to Claire Schlemme and Claire, you were an alumni of Foodbytes a couple of years ago.Claire Sclemme:Yes.Lisa Kiefer:We got up to the point where it's talking about judging. You made it to the finals.Claire Sclemme:Sure.Lisa Kiefer:What happened?Claire Sclemme:So as Nina mentioned, it's really it was a two day event for us. So the first day before the actual pitch competition, we had the opportunity to talk to a lot of different experts in different fields, which was, which was really great. So I think going back to that point, even with some business experience under our belt, it was a lot of really quick concentrated information that we were able to get from that day, which was excellent. So a lot of touching on all these legal issues, packaging issues, marketing issues, so really being able to touch all those different points and then also being able to have a pitch in front of the judges before the actual competition was also-Lisa Kiefer:So like a practice pitch.Claire Sclemme:It was a practice pitch. We got feedback on it, which was great. We could incorporate the feedback into our pitch for the next day, which was also very helpful and it really-Lisa Kiefer:Maybe you should tell us about your company.Claire Sclemme:Absolutely. So, so I'm the cp-founder and CEO of Renewal Mill and Renewal Mill up cycles byproducts from food manufacturing into high quality ingredients and products. So essentially we're building a portfolio of ingredients that are all being sourced from different byproducts. So the first-Lisa Kiefer:Like what?Claire Sclemme:So the first ingredient that we brought to market commercially is called Okara flour and it's made from the byproduct from soy milk production. So it's basically taking the soybean pulp that's generated when soy milk is made. We dry it, mill it and turn it into a high fiber, high protein, gluten free flour. So that's one example. There's a lot of other other places in the food system where this type of waste is happening. So particularly in food manufacturing waste is a really good place to be looking at food waste because it's kind of low hanging fruit in terms of being able to attack the food waste problem.Things coming out of a food manufacturing facility are food safe already because they're in this facility and they're often very concentrated in their scale because it's food production is pretty concentrated. So you have the ability to hit that economy of scale that you need to make a profitable business or make a business that can make sense. So we're focused primarily on these fibrous byproduct streams. So anything that's coming from really coming from that first step of bringing in anything from the field, the fruits, the vegetables, the beans, things like that and you get a lot of fiber rich byproducts because a lot of what we're processing out of our food system right now is fiber.Even though that's the one macronutrient that western diets are very deficient in. So we're starting with Okara. Okara production in the US is very concentrated actually. There's just a handful of major production facilities. So it's a strategic starting point for us from that point of view. From there we're looking at other byproducts of nondairy milk production. So within this big world of fibrous byproducts, we're looking specifically at these nondairy milk byproduct streams. So the byproducts coming out of almond milk production, oat milk production, that's where we're going to be headed at next.Lisa Kiefer:So anything with [holls 00:12:31].Claire Sclemme:Exactly, yeah.Lisa Kiefer:So you're up before the judges and you know your company well. What happened? What did they ask you? Give us the scenario.Claire Sclemme:That's it. That's a great question. So a lot of the feedback, the feedback always helps you kind of see things, obviously from outside eyes that haven't heard your story a million times. Basically a panel with different backgrounds be able to weigh in on things that are causing confusion for them or things that didn't quite come across.So really being able to make sure that we can really hone in on the right story that we want to be telling and making sure that it's coming across that way and being received that way by the judges and also making sure that we're presenting all the information that somebody would want to know. So making sure that we've addressed issues like competition in the field or kind of what our growth strategy is and making sure that we haven't left something kind of major out that a judge would want to see. So that was very helpful and I think it was also just helpful to get a sense of what the space is like and it's a pretty big event with quite a few attendees. So it's nice to feel comfortable on the stage and in front of the judges [crosstalk 00:13:35].Lisa Kiefer:How many minutes are you up there?Nina Meyers:It's three minutes now. So as far as-Lisa Kiefer:Wow, that's not much time.Nina Meyers:[inaudible] competitions, it's pretty tight, but the judges also ask questions after the companies go. So that it's like another layer of sort of engagement and that's-Lisa Kiefer:And do they get materials ahead of time?Nina Meyers:Yes. So they spend, obviously they're with each other the day before, but they also get materials many days in advance and they now they have meetings with some of the startups. So Claire participated two years ago and we've really continued to evolve what the programming looks like as people. We always get feedback. So the entrepreneurs say, "I actually want more time with investors that are, I know I'm going to meet the right investors." So we're doing actually an investor power hour for the first time this time around where we're strategically matching them with one or two investors and we're doing, it's not a speed dating because it's like 20 minutes, but basically meetings with those specific folks whose investment these align with what the startups are doing.Lisa Kiefer:Is the networking what they win or do you actually get funding?Nina Meyers:There isn't direct funding as a result of Foodbytes, but there are a number of prizes. One of the main ones is for all the three winners is that they, Rabobank hosts a huge summit in New York at the end of the year. So December and all of our corporate clients, so big food and AG companies are there and the winners across all the events from that year get to come and pitch and have targeted meetings with the corporates that are relevant for their businesses and they have a few days where they're just really targeted and meeting with folks that can potentially help them as partners. So that's one main prize and then a lot of our sponsors who are, like we said, experts in many different fields, there's also consultations with them so that they can get five hours of legal consultation on how to structure their deal. They can get PR consultation and branding consultation on how to build the best investor materials and DAX and present their brand in the best possible way.Lisa Kiefer:Claire, what was it you found to be the most useful out of winning this competition?Nina Meyers:So we weren't the winners from our cohort. We were in the finalists but actually kind of going back again to all the people that we meet during the two days, that was a very valuable thing for us that made the participation in the event very worthwhile for us. So we actually continued to have some conversations with some of the lawyers that we met there to talk about some of the legal structuring, some of the agreements that we were currently in the process of structuring and we also had continued conversation with folks that were very knowledgeable about packaging for food products because there's a lot that goes into making sure that the product fits all the legal regulations and the requirements. That was great to have both of those connections coming out of Foodbytes.Lisa Kiefer:Once you get involved with say a VC or some sort of funding source, do you ever worry about losing your company's mission? That it will begin to sort of move away from you?Claire Sclemme:Yeah, that's a great question. So actually one of the things that we did when we first founded the company thinking about that very point was that we incorporated as a public benefit corporation. So we wanted that to be really built into our mission and so we structured that into the type of business we actually were and one of the pieces of kind of feedback that we got at the very beginning was that maybe you don't want to do that because you might be closing yourself off to investors that aren't interested in investing in a benefit corporation and we said, "That's exactly why we want to do this, because it essentially is going to kind of self select the types of investors that we're looking for." So that was kind of the first layer and then the second of course is making sure that when we're talking to investors that we do have that mission alignment as we're taking on investment.Lisa Kiefer:Getting back to you, Nina, you've done this for several years now. What trends in agriculture are you seeing pop up from the startup companies? I mean, you talked about some of the problems in the AG industry. What are you seeing overall?Nina Meyers:Yeah, well a major trend. I'd say a cross food tech, AG tech and CPG as is this idea of waste mitigation. So up cycling is one avenue in which that's happening. Another one is of course packaging. We're seeing more and more edible packaging. We're seeing more compostable packaging, plant based packaging. We have a company that's pushing in Foodbytes called Coremat and that's exactly what they're doing. They're making compostable, plant-based packaging that's basically-Lisa Kiefer:That's awesome because all these cities are now saying it's too expensive to recycle.Nina Meyers:Exactly and from a regulatory perspective that this sort of clampdown is increasing. It's happened in Europe, forcing lots of innovation in the packaging world in Europe and it's starting to happen here. That's one massive trend and huge need that startups are really looking to solve and obviously an incredible opportunity for collaboration on the corporate side of things as they start to realize we really, really need to be focusing on it. It's happening [crosstalk 00:18:31-Lisa Kiefer:Why are you giving me a plastic bag?Nina Meyers:Why are you giving me a straw? Right, exactly. So that's one place where we're seeing a lot of innovation and then on the waste mitigation side as well, right? Stopping waste before it can happen. So more and more technology companies are saying, let's use data and technology to stop waste before it can happen. So a company like [Winnow] who's come through our platform, they basically have a scale for food service and back of house at restaurants that weighs waste as it's going out and then gives restaurants a better picture of their wastage so that they can decrease that. That's the-Lisa Kiefer:What's the incentive for someone to reduce their waste at the restaurant level?Nina Meyers:Money. They save restaurants globally $25 million a year and they're not that big yet. I mean they're just starting out. So it's money.Lisa Kiefer:It sounds like you've put together a lot of qualitative data.Nina Meyers:Yes, we, like I said, we started with a very, very small team and over the last year or so we've built up the team like I said. So we've just brought in a data analyst who is amazing and we're sort of at the tip of the iceberg for what data are we sitting on and what are we saying? But yes, we have a really good picture of trends that are happening. That's one major, major trend that we're seeing. The other one is sort of just the environmental impact of food-Lisa Kiefer:Climate change?Nina Meyers:... Production, of climate change and also to hand in hand with that that consumers have more and more knowledge of that and are demanding better, cleaner products.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah, look at the Midwest right now.Nina Meyers:Yes.Lisa Kiefer:All the flooding and that used to be our bread basket.Nina Meyers:That's when it has to change and startups are really heeding that call on the plant based foods side of things as well. Just if we're talking about packaged foods in general, we're seeing so much innovation in that space. We're seeing at least 40% of the companies that apply that have a product that apply to Foodbytes are in some way related to the plant based space. To sort of talk about some of the companies that are pitching coming up in San Francisco we're seeing new and novel plant based proteins. So we have a company called [Tali] and they are making waterlily seed puffs. So we see the puffs as like a huge category in the food product world, but this is a new type of puff. It's basically bringing in an heirloom varietal.It's gotten more protein, more nutritious. They're doing some really interesting flavors. So we're seeing companies like that who are bringing this plant based protein view to snacking. We also have a company called Gem and they basically have the first FDA regulated supplement product, food supplement. It's for women by women. It's made from algae and a number of different plants. Real food. It's clean food. So we're seeing things in that type of space. I was just at Expo West, which is the largest natural foods show in the country and I think it's 1500 exhibitors, 90000 people.Lisa Kiefer:Where was it?Nina Meyers:It's in Anaheim. It's 90000 people. So it's very, very intense and there's a lot of companies that are doing very similar things. There's the plant-based trend just continues to grow year over year. So whether that's new algae products, that's lots of cauliflower products, you see the confluence of a lot of trends.Lisa Kiefer:Are any UC Berkeley professors or policy people judging this year?Nina Meyers:Not this year, but next year we're going to make it happen.Claire Sclemme:Oh excellent.Lisa Kiefer:Can anyone go to this?Nina Meyers:Yes. It's open to the public. We really want people there who care about these issues, who care about sustainable food and AG, who want to see what the innovators at the bleeding edge of sustainable innovation are doing. Next Thursday, the 28th of March, starting at 2:00 PM, it's really an opportunity to see these 15 startups pitch, to engage with them and see their products and technologies, have some delicious food and drinks and if you want to get into food or if you're a journalist or if you're a student and this is where the world you think you want to go into, we absolutely encourage you to come. If you're an investor or you're a food corporate and you're trying to figure out what's next, we 1000000% encourage you to come.Lisa Kiefer:And you have a website?Nina Meyers:Foodbytesworld.com. Instagram is Foodbytes by Rabobank. We've profiled all the companies who are going to be pitching. There's lots of content. Claire's on there somewhere. So check us out on Instagram, Linkedin, Twitter, and then Foodbytesworld.com is where you can get tickets to come and see us next week.Lisa Kiefer:And Claire, your business is located where?Claire Sclemme:Oh, we're in Oakland.Lisa Kiefer:Okay, what have your challenges been since you participated in Foodbytes?Claire Sclemme:Oh, that's a good question. Our biggest challenge I would say is that, so working in the byproduct space, we're really a bridge builder between the production and then bringing that into the market. We have less control over being able to scale in a way that other companies might be able to have as they're creating products. So we're really bound to the amount of byproducts that are coming out of certain facilities. So being able to match that production with the sales is really, I would say one of our biggest challenges. So it kind of swings back and forth from having more demands than we have a production for to having more supply of the ingredient than we currently have sales force. So it's kind of bouncing back and forth as we try to strike that perfect balance as we bring these ingredients on board.Lisa Kiefer:And are most of your sources local?Claire Sclemme:So right now they are. So our first source is in Oakland, which is why we started out in Oakland and why we're based there. So our first partner facility is Hodo Foods and they're a tofu manufacturer. So the first step of making tofu is making the soy milk and so that's where we're basically harvesting the Okara from is from Hodo and our next two facilities that we will likely be using as our sources of production are also in northern California.Nina Meyers:When you sort of spoke about what do they get out of this, the alumni who come through our platforms have raised a combined 550 million. I believe it was something like 150 last year. So even though it's not directly a prize, this is what we've seen as the companies who've come out of who we've chosen, who we've selected, this is how they're moving forward and getting that investment to scale their companies.Lisa Kiefer:You must be checking the failure rate of these companies as they-Nina Meyers:Yes.Lisa Kiefer:... they leave Foodbytes. What is the failure rate?Nina Meyers:It's under 10% because we're doing really like a lot of due diligence in the process of picking the ones that we think are really going to be successful. It's relatively low. It's lower than the average.Lisa Kiefer:Do you have a business background?Nina Meyers:I actually went to college in upstate New York at Skidmore college. I studied at a liberal arts school and I had was working in a sustainable restaurant, a farm to table restaurant the summer after college and my Mom is a chef and so I grew up around food. Food is my whole life and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do next when I moved to New York during the recession in 2009. I started working for a restaurant company in New York in the creative department. I got sort of my foot in the door there and started working on marketing and design for the restaurants.So that was really a sort of honed my skills there on the marketing side of things. Started to realize through being in New York that what I really cared about was sustainability in food and agriculture and trying to figure out what to do next. I then went onto work for Food Tech Connect, which is a site of record for food innovation essentially. We did a lot of events in this space and meetups and consulting and hackathons, which is really all focused on sustainable food and agriculture. So I was there. I was working with startups directly. Spent about four years there and then we started working together with Rabobank to build Foodbytes out from its infancy.Lisa Kiefer:Claire how did you get into this pat of the world?Claire Sclemme:Yes. So my background is actually in environmental management. So I have in my masters in environmental management from the Yale School of Forestry. I had primarily actually been involved mostly in the space of sustainability and energy and so I'd worked at a renewable energy startup in India and worked with UN climate change, but I started to realize how important the food system is in the space of sustainability and I, kind of my first transition into into food was actually co-founding a juice company in Boston where I was living at the time. So we started as a food truck and we were connecting farmers to folks in the city through juices and smoothies and then in that process saw how much waste is created when you're juicing. It was really kind of like this moral issue.At the end of the day we'd sourced all this great produce from these farmers and it was all organic. It was mostly local. You'd spend a lot of money to buy all this produce and we're throwing out a huge amount of it at the end of the day, ll that pulp that's left over from juicing. On the the other side, of course we're selling the product that we are making, we're selling at a price point that's pretty high for the, it wasn't a super affordable food for much of the city and so those two pieces together kind of where you know really struck me as a challenge and that was a space that I really wanted to continue working in after I left that company.So when I had really just a fortuitous conversation with the owner of Hodo Foods in Oakland, the owner of the tofu factory and saw that he had this challenge with his byproduct that he was producing, which was very similar to what I had seen at the juice company, but at this much bigger scale and that it wasn't just a Okara, it was lots of different opportunities and lots of different sources of these types of byproducts. That was really the beginning of Renewal Mill was looking into how we can solve both food waste and also increase affordable nutrition in the food system.Nina Meyers:Claire really pioneered this space and now there's a company that's much younger than you, but it's called Pulp Pantry and they're doing, they're solving the problem that Claire just outlined. It's like entrepreneurial serendipity. They saw the same problem and they're making value added snacks out of juice pulp.Lisa Kiefer:Wow, you should all join forces and become the next Nabisco.Claire Sclemme:I know. Exactly, exactly.Nina Meyers:[crosstalk 00:28:19].Lisa Kiefer:[crosstalk] better.Nina Meyers:That's exactly what Foodbytes wants to have happen.Claire Sclemme:Yeah.Lisa Kiefer:Well, was there anything else that is coming up with Foodbytes besides this conference next week?Nina Meyers:Rabo has a whole other food and AG innovation platform called Tara. It is basically the next step in the cycle for startups to engage with Rabo after Foodbytes. That's what Tara is all about. We're going into our fourth cohort and applications are open now. Tara is like, how can we do the best possible matchmaking for startups and corporates? So applications are open now. That website is Taraaccelerator.com. They're open. They close on April 26th. So any startups, anyone you think is interested, you can learn about the corporates that are participating to see and so you can learn more there.Claire Sclemme:In addition to kind of all of the structured support that's coming out of Foodbytes, I think the other piece that was really valuable to us was actually meeting the other companies that we're pitching and there there's been some valuable connections that we've had in terms of the the business and actually finding uses for our flour with some of the other companies that have been on the platform, but also just really to talk to other entrepreneurs and be able to just talk about some of the other challenges that you're facing from a business perspective and also from a personal perspective as well. So it's a really, I think it's a really great community of entrepreneurs that are being brought together as well.Lisa Kiefer:Well thank you so much for being on the show.Claire Sclemme:Thank you.Nina Meyers:Thank you for having us.Lisa Kiefer:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. [music] See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Death educators Gina Colombatto and Meredith Hays, facilitators of the workshop series The Ultimate Shavasana: Where Examining Death Makes Life a Little Bit Easier, speak about the importance of embracing our mortality.Transcript:Ojig: This is Method to the Madness, a biweekly public Affair show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host Ojig Yeretsian. Today I'm speaking with Gina Colombatto and Meredith Hayes, death educators who recently led workshops entitled The Ultimate Shavasana where examining death makes life a little bit easier. Ojig:Welcome to the show Gina and Meredith and thanks for joining us. Gina: Great to be here! Ojig: Tell us what you do and the problem you're trying to solve.Gina: The problem we're trying to solve is that everyone is going to die and no one wants to talk about it. But it's something that we all have in common and it happens all the time. We all have loved ones who die and as a death educator I want to continue to bring creativity and levity into the subject of death and dying so that it becomes something that is SO normal instead of fear-based, it would be much more a celebration of whoever has died. So we do death education.Meredith: What I do is I work as a death Doula or an end-of-life Doula. And my hope is that we can fill the gap between over the nurses who were working so hard and the caregivers who are coming from their homes and they're exhausted. And both sides of the medical professional and the personal they need help, and so doulas can step in. We are not medical; we offer practical, emotional and spiritual support and we can be there when the caregiver needs a break or if the nurses are too busy and can't answer a call right away. We’re hoping to make it more of a normal, comfortable situation for everyone.Ojig: And as a death Doula, can you describe things you would do?Gina: Yeah, well first the word Doula comes from the Greek and it means to serve or a female servant or female slave and while I don't love that there is some truth to it. We serve, that's what we do and we don't have to be female, the majority of us are. Like I said before it's non-medical and we can do pretty much anything. Our job is to serve the family of the dying person and the dying person themselves and to a larger degree the community. And we do that however we can, whether it's running errands for someone, whether it's holding a ceremony of some sort, or calling in a spiritual counselor, whatever it is. Ojig: It sounds like it's really important. I'd like to follow up about the fear of death that Gina mentioned. There seems to be a taboo around acknowledging dying and there is silence around planning for death. Why is it so hard for us to talk about this?Gina: I think it moved from being very home based during the Civil War when we had soldiers going across country and they would die somewhere else and we needed them to get home. We wanted their bodies home. Before that, someone would die in the neighborhood and you would bring them to the parlour, which we now called the living room, oddly enough. And you would gather and you would lay out your dying or your dead and everyone in the neighborhood would come and women would wash the body and there would be preparation of the coffin by the men. It was very divided. But it was also very familial and community based. You knew who was dying and you knew when they were dying and you knew how they died and it was all very open. Whereas for us, we've turned death into dirtiness and it's like you don't touch a dead bird, it's going to be toxic, or you don't get near a dead body, it’s is going to smell. We’ve really created that from the Civil War because these bodies were far away and we needed to get them home so we started the embalming process. The embalming made it easier to get a body across country, but what happened at that time, though, is we started looking at there are only certain people who know how to take care of bodies and those are the the embalmers. We shifted at that point that only people who knew how to embalm would take care of the bodies. And we are bringing back home funerals because we want to remind ourselves that death isn't scary, it's perfectly normal, it's not dirty. Yes there can be blood, just like in birth there is the birth doulas, in death, there is the death doula. It’s the end of life. It's messy. Life is messy. But it's also so amazing and brilliant and then we can all share it so when someone dies you don't have to say, ‘quick! get someone to take away the smelly body.’ A body can be in your home for three days. It can be even longer if you're just putting it on ice and everyone can come and say their goodbyes and reminisce about that person.Meredith: I think we’ve made death seem like an emergency and it really isn't. When a person dies, there's nothing to do. The status isn't going to change. The first thing that I think people should do when someone dies is take a breath and just sit and be and don't rush and don't pick up the phone and don't call out for the nurse. You don't need to do that. It's not an emergency. Gina: And people do find things that are important to them at that time. And it may be something as simple as singing to the dead or reading a poem or telling stories about that person. And that person’s not going anywhere. They're not rotting away. They're just a body that's lying there and you can enjoy all the memories of who they are, right there. They’re right there with you.Ojig: Your perspective is that this is just a natural part of the process of living. It’s just the end stage. Meredith: Exactly. Yeah, and we need to also, part of the education is letting our kids know about this and to open up the conversation for not just adults, but for the younger ones as well because we hide away our old people and unless you have the fortune of living with your grandmother or something, kids don't really talk to old people that much. And there's so much wisdom and so much beauty there. We need to work on that. We really, really do!Ojig: Religion and medicine are the usual realms that death is discussed. However, in Mexico, loved ones who died are acknowledged and celebrated. Is our fear of death a western or American phenomenon?Gina: It's hard to say American because we’re made up of everything right, but that's a little tricky but it's yes, it’s definitely more western culture. At the same time there is Mexico in the western culture, so it's very different group to group and how we've been raised. I like that you mentioned Dia de Los Muertos. Coco, the film that came out last year that just covered everything in a playful way. It was very joyous. It was very easy for everyone to watch. There's a little bit of the Disney piece in there that you just go ‘really?’, but it opened that door as culturally some religions do talk about it, you may also have someone that understands it from their religious perspective, but they still have terror.Ojig: And what is thanatology? Gina: Thanatology is the study of death. We got into the study of death. That's where we met.Meredith: Yes, we met at the open center in New York City four years ago. We did a 9-month study in a course called The Art of Dying and I think that's how I describe thanatology because it covers so much and we talked about every aspect-- the physical aspects of dying, spiritual, emotional, historical, you name it, we covered it.Gina: Part of what the thanatology brought to us was that there are so many ways to look at death. And you had mentioned medicine and religion. And in medicine we study how to not die, and that becomes a real problem because doctors aren’t trained, raised, experienced in saying, ‘Oh, this person is going to die. How great!’ That's not a reality in a hospital. They’ve been trained to save us. That’s how we’ve given them that job. You need to save us. And you'll find some people who really, and we learned this in school from the palliative care doctor, there are some people who want to stay alive, to stay alive. What are you going to do by being alive? I want to have more chemo. What are you going to do with more chemo? Stay alive. Is that really living or is that just surviving or what exactly is that? And doctors are supposed to offer everything they can and as a culture again we don't say oh you know what that maybe pretty miserable do you want to go that route because otherwise maybe hospice and doula and end-of-life practitioners that know how to offer what can you do in this body that you can still do while you're here.Meredith: Right. There's still definitely a way to live while you die and that gets overlooked and what matters to someone at the end of life may not matter to someone else. We've heard stories of people who all they want to be able to do is be with their kids and eat chocolate ice cream and that's, to them, that's living, and if they can't do that, then they're done. And those are the questions that doctors are now starting to ask. You know, what is it that makes you want to wake up in the morning? We hope to see more and more of that but doctors aren't taught that in their schools and we do see it changing now which is awesome.Ojig: That’'s great.That gives us hope. And what is the standard practice in the field of thanatology? Is it bereavement counseling?Gina: As a culture, we are very grief-based. Grief actually comes from a French word that is to burden and I think that we all sign up for the burden. By looking at death as grief, as loss, instead of as the joy of that person was with you for as long as they were, what a different experience we’d be having. Bereavement is one, that yes, it's very important to be able to sit with someone and, and this is one of the parts of an end-of-life doula, is being able to sit with the family in anticipatory grief in that place where the person is not all the way gone, but they may be gone in their minds but their body is still there, so that pain is, is pretty intense because you love someone that's really not the way that you want them to be. And so, those places of bereavement, to be able to sit it that and be able to say that’s painful, it really is, tell me more, who were they, because they lived, and we tend to focus on, they’re gone. Ojig: What have you found to be with a common need with patients that you’ve helped?Meredith: Well, every person is different and every death is different. I try really hard. We were taught this too, you walk into a situation and let everything go. No expectations, your own baggage, you gotta deal with that first, or else it’s trouble. Walking into a situation, it can be anything and you have to be okay with that. People grieve differently. They can be freaking out and screaming and yelling. There could be tears or there could be silence. And as a doula, you accept that, and you just embrace it and let the people do whatever they have to. As for the dying person, again, it could be anything. I've seen a lot of sadness. I would call it sadness. I've seen fear and hope, a lot of hope. Also humor. Some very funny things happen at the end of life and I have some of my best memories, gosh, from people who were dying. That's a hard question to answer because it's all over the map. I think you get every single emotion. Ojig: if you're just tuning in, you’re listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today’s guests are Gina Colombotto and Meredith Hayes. They're speaking about their recent workshop series entitled, The Ultimate Shavasana, where examining death makes life a little bit easier.Ojig: I wanted to now ask about your workshop. So the flyer reads: The Ultimate Shavasana-- where examining death makes life a little bit easier. Lose your fear of dying, get wrapped in a lively conversation, and then in a beautiful shroud or coffin. How are you innovating in this field of death education and tell us about your workshops. Gina: When we started, I was like, this is what I want to do. It’s a dream of getting people to get really close to their fears and really what their fears are is about the love of their bodies, or their love of someone that has left or their love of someone that they don't want to die. So it’s really all about love which sounds so corny, but it’s so true. To me, it’s like OK, how can we remind people that you’re invited to come look at why it’s so fearful and then touch upon how can we make it less fearful. I like to add art into it. I like to add creativity into it so it’s not all dark and black and dungeon-like.Meredith: I call it part death cafe, part meditation, part party, because there is a celebration aspect to it. There is a point where you're invited to climb into a coffin or get wrapped in a shroud and do a short meditation. People have come out of that, transformed seems like a large word, but I would say transformed, and there's this look of relief and happiness. That's not to say it’s super scary beforehand. It is for some people, but not for everyone. it's a safe place. It's very calm, but happy. Gina: We’re planning on taking this all around-- to continue to invite people to look more closely and laugh more closely with and around death and dying. We have been in Maine and New York and Berkeley. But it is a serious, it's a serious step. It's 2 hours.Meredith: Yeah it's pretty powerful. And back to where we hope to have these workshops, we’re reaching out now to hospice groups, and hope to be part of their training and offer the workshop to the volunteers so the volunteers can get sort of up close and personal and take the experience when they go volunteer with hospice patients.Gina: For anyone who doesn’t do yoga, shavasana is the corpse pose that is for the ultimate letting go at the end of oftentimes yoga classes. It has a long long history of being that hardest thing to experience. Ojig: You sound like you're both these containers for holding it all together for folks to take this risky step and check out their fears and demystify a little bit and think critically about what they’re wrapped up in. Who attends your workshop? Is there a cultural group or social group that’s more open to talk about our mortality?Gina: I’ve been doing death cafe’s probably for 4 or 5 years and I've had so many people come through and usually I would expect it would be all elders, but actually there's quite a few of the 20-somethings, 18-35 somethings. It's a huge age range and people have different reasons they're there. Someone might come because they have cancer and they're in their eighties and they are kind of thinking, I have everything in order, but you know I'm here to learn anything else and you think, how great, they’ve shown up, and then someone else will arrive and they're 18 and their best friend just did an opioid overdose and it's a hard thing because nobody wants to talk about it. With suicide, I will always turn it around and say, instead of the person, you know they took their life, I will always say, they gave their life, because if you just look at it from that angle, they were here as long as they could stay, so maybe they were here for 18 years, like they gave their life for 18 years. What were they like? Tell me about them. We forget that piece because we focus on the end, that last hour, and that’s how we define the person forever after.Ojig: You’re shifting the focus from the loss to the gifts, to what was given. So important.Meredith: I just want to say, some people show up to these events, not knowing why they are showing up. There’s a lot of that. When we ask, ‘What brought you here?’ Oh, I don’t know. I’ve just always been interested in death.’ And in this circle of people, we have people nodding, ‘oh, I know what you mean, I know what you mean.’ When I say it now, it sounds a little weird, but it makes all the sense in the world. And people are exploring. They want a place to be able to talk about this.Ojig: Yeah, because it’s not something you grow up with. You’re not learning it at school or in your family. If there’s taboos around it or it’s unsafe to ask anyone.Gina: I think what the humor is is that we all are going there and when you start talking about it people will say the most amazing things. You know, we had a woman say ‘what is the worst thing that could happen to your body’ and she said, ‘I know this is odd, but I’d actually have my legs cut off and I think it's that wouldn't be so bad because I would become the best swimmer.’ Now we're just sitting there looking, going HUH, okay well, that's good, but she thought about it and she hasn't told anyone anything like that and yet that's her getting closer to letting go of her body. Like how can I let go? What would be comfortable? What would that be like?Meredith: And then there was a woman who wanted her body to be eaten by alligators and she was dead serious. And when we said, how would you like to go, she didn’t miss a beat. She said, I’d like to be pulled apart by alligators.Gina: And, don’t tell my mother until after it’s done. And for us, it’s amazing how hard it is for people to sign up for these workshops. People are so fearful that it’s ‘please, don’t talk to me about it. No, I can’t show up. If we talk about it, we’re going to die’. Yeah, that’s true, but maybe not tomorrow.Ojig: When you educate about dying and death, do you also share information about what options folks have for what to do with their bodies? Gina: Yes, we have lots of what to do. And different states have different things that they can do with bodies. So first of all there are dead bodies everywhere and we don't know that. You know, in the hospitals, there’s tons of dead bodies. They're just not parading them through for you but that's where people go to die so we forget that and we think oh my god really there's dead bodies. It’s like yeah, and that's normal, and that's okay, and those people were loved, they're all fine. And then some of the green burial options, we like to think of cremation as a very green way to go but actually it’s incredibly toxic. The mercury and the toxicity that goes into the air even with all the filters is pretty extreme. In Maine, which is where I'm living now, has alkaline hydrolysis, which is water cremation. It’s also called aqua-cremation and bio-cremation where you put the bodies into basically a big canister and it’s all stainless steel. The body is on a rack. It fills with water. They put in potassium, I believe, to break down the PH level and then every part of the body except for the bone just disintegrates. And it goes into the water system as no DNA, there’s no DNA in the water. It's all just liquid and it's perfectly fine to go into the water system. People say YUCK, it’s going into the water system, forgetting that when a person is embalmed, everything that’s taken out of that body goes straight into the water system.Ojig: This is fascinating. We are SO not informed.Meredith: True. A lot of people are turning to green burials and choosing to be wrapped in just shrouds or bamboo caskets or cardboard caskets and and just being put into the ground. Also there's a lot of movement for making your own casket and I don’t know if you’ve seen these caskets that are made to place into furniture, like a bookcase that you can use until you're ready for it to use it as a casket, so you can get to know it--and like live with it for a while. Until you die with it. Yeah, so I’m sure there’s going to be more creative things coming up.Gina: It’s exciting. There are different ways that we're looking and people are trying and planting bodies and what people have an illusion about is that when someone is burned in cremation and you have ashes, they said we're going to plant a tree in these ashes, well, that's not really good for the tree. They won't grow in ashes. There’s not a whole lot of good stuff for the tree in ashes. But you can put them around a tree.Ojig: How did you find your way into this field?Meredith: I was one of those kids who always liked to talk about death. It was a pretty open conversation in my family. We always talked about how we wanted to die and where we wanted to be buried or cremated and it was like a conversation around the kitchen table, so there was that. But then my dad died about six years ago and he and I didn't know much about the industry and he was in hospice his last 4 days. It actually was awful. I think in retrospect I think part of the awfulness was because I wasn't informed and everything came as a shock to me. Also I think we did not have a cracker jack staff at the time at the hospice. But it was painful for my entire family and my dad was someone who was in service of other people his whole life and for him to struggle and suffer this way, it just seemed completely wrong and extremely difficult to get through. And on the third day...he was there four days... on the third day I just, I had lost it, and I thought, why is this happening to this man who is like the greatest, kindest man. It was like a slap on the side of my head. I thought, oh my God, he's doing this for me. He was like YO, wake up daughter, and see what what I'm doing for you because this is what we need. We need people to figure this out and to make it so that no one else has this experience. Once that I had that thought, I thought, okay, let's do it then. It was his definitely, his last gift to me. I went away from there thinking, I got to do something. And it took a couple years to figure it out, Googling end-of-life opportunities, death jobs, you know, and then I made my way to the Open Center and that's where it all started. Yeah, so it was very personal and it wasn't until I worked through all this baggage with my dad that I was able to be ready to help other people because I think that's super important. You have to do the work. It's hard and it takes a long time, but you can't go on to serve others until you've got that figured out. Ojig: And how about you Gina? How did you find your way into this field?Gina: I have a lot of people who've died and who I loved dearly and they've all had different deaths. I happen to have a larger amount of people who have given their own lives or taken their own lives. Even when I was younger and people would be very critical of that, I just had a different feel towards it and I thought well, it’s a another way to leave. And I know that just riles people. And at the same time, I think that we emphasize mental illness. And, yes, I think that that can play a part in it and I also think that there are some people who there just done, they’ve had a good life, they lived their lives and they're done. It's easier for us to accept that when they're 85 years old than if they're a 25 year old and who’s to know. We just don’t know. So I think it's always been this intrigue that I haven’t looked at death as the worst thing ever but more a real curiosity and how we all get there is so fascinating. Ojig: The poet Mary Oliver wrote “And When Death Comes”:When it's over I don't want to find myself sighing and frightened or full of argument. I don't want to end up simply having visited this world. What does it mean to die well and what does a good death look like to you? Meredith: Personally a good death for me would be I would like to be aware. I hope not to be in pain. I think that’s a pretty universal thought for people. But really, I want to know what's going on and I would like to be able to relay what's going on to those around me, especially my family and my son. If things go according to you know the laws of nature I will go before him, and I won't be there with him when he dies, and so I would like to give him the gift of explaining what I'm experiencing. So that maybe he'll experience the same thing or maybe he won't be scared when something comes up. And I think if he can then pass that on, then I guess a good death to me would be to leave that legacy.Gina: I don't know if there is such a thing as a good death. And a good death, I think, as with everything, it’s individual, because if I weren't aware and I have been around people who are leaving with dementia and people say, oh I would just hate to have dementia, but you don't know and the person who has dementia seems, we don't know, but seems to be perfectly fine and it's almost a gift to those around. It may look like a very uncomfortable death but maybe that's the gifting like your papa gave you. That there's a gift there. I would love to say that I go with grace... who knows. And I ask in death cafes over and over and over what’s a good death and it's so individual. I mean a good death for one person is I'm all alone, I'm on a mountain, and I have a heart attack, and someone else's is I have my whole family around me and I've had cancer for 6 months so I can say goodbye to everyone and it's loud and the kids have pans and they're dancing around and you’re thinking, oh, well those are both good deaths.Ojig: Young people, children, are not very prepared for talking about the last days. And most deaths happen out of sight in hospitals. How do you help youngsters navigate? What can we do to educate the next generation?Meredith: I don't agree with the fact that they're not ready to talk about it. I think in fact they are more ready than anyone else. It's just that people don't know how to bring it up with them, how to educate them. I think we just need to start the conversations. There's a way to get some sort of education in schools and I I don't know what that is yet. I think if they can talk about sex ed why can't they talk about death ed? There’s no difference. At my house, my boy has a death plan for his pet snails. We know that he wants them cremated and and he wants to bury them then. And we talked about that and he knows what I want and it's a normal conversation for us. We went to the dentist and the fish in the fish tank died and the nurse ran over saying, ‘don't look, don't look, don't look’ and he said, he stepped right in front of her and said, don't worry, my mama knows everything about death and the nurse was like what are you talking about? That fish shouldn't be whisked away without any explanation. I think it just has to be normalized and I hope that there will be some programs. I hope to work on that in my communities.Gina: And I want to add to that that we do talk to children about death. We just talk in the same mode of fear. Because we are taking kindergarteners to active shooter drills in their school. So you have five and six year olds who are learning how to not die because it's gonna be really terrifying and this is what we need to do to avoid that at all costs and that's what they hear about death. And then they hear that someone famous died and the flag is at half mast but we don't really talk about that, it's just you know you're supposed to be quiet and honor it, but not really talk about it and so I think as Meredith says, it’s so important to have the conversation.Ojig: If people want to learn more about your innovative work and get more information about your workshops, how can people contact you?Gina: I actually make contact on Instagram with just the Fine Art of Living and Dying. If you look up The Ultimate Shavasana we will be taking that around and so that will pop up. Another way to reach us would be through email: andthenwhathappens@gmail.com because we really don't know.Ojig: We tend to think of death as a separate thing and not connected at all to the living process and that's where we need to shift our thinking and expand life to include the ending chapter. Similar to other transition points in life where we get help and guidance like with the birth process, college counseling, athletic coaching, career building, wedding or marriage counseling... end of life is just another phase for which we can also get support. And I want to thank you Gina and Meredith for sharing about your process and the important work that you do to bring death and dying into the discussion about how we live.Meredith:Thank you! Gina: Thank you very much!Ojig: You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcast on iTunes University. See you again in two weeks. 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Local musician and author, Andrew Castro, discusses his new book Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go.Transcript:INTRO: This is Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, your host is Ojig Yeretsian. She'll be speaking with Andrew Castro, a professional singer-songwriter turned author. He's recently written a book, Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go. OJIG: Thank You, Andrew, for coming in today. Welcome to the show. Can you tell us about yourself and why you wrote this book? ANDREW: Yeah. So for me, the book wasn't planned. I kind of just spontaneously decided that I had all this information in my head, and I wanted to sit down and write it. And for me, it was just years of personal experience with the content that's in the book. And so I just kind of felt like a gut feeling that I needed to sit down and just put it out. So I just sat down at my computer, wrote it, and I'd struggled with anxiety and stuff. But it didn't really become like a problem for me until I was about twenty five, I’m thirty three now. It was just kind of built, kind of like happens for a lot of people like a hidden layer that you just think it's kind of who you are. And then all of a sudden, it just kind of explodes just from too much buildup. And that was kind of what happened with me, and I went through years of it, pretty debilitating stuff. And then then I kind of got over it, but I went back in the same patterns, and then I, uh, had another bout with it again for a couple of years. And then I decided that, you know, it's time to make an actual change, not just let's see if I can fix this a little bit, but go back to what I was doing. So I had to really change my entire life patterns along the way. Along the way, I've been a professional musician, too, and that lifestyle doesn't always give the best results for not having anxiety, you know, because you're constantly not knowing where you're gonna be next kind of thing. So but yes. So the book just kind of came out, and it didn't take that long to write. It's short, but I outlined it for a couple weeks and then took about two months on and off to write it. OJIG:How do you define anxiety? ANDREW: I wouldn't put any single definition on it because there's so many different variations of it. People have social anxieties. In a simple term, for me, it's just overwhelming. I think that would be the best way to describe it. It's just an overwhelming feeling that there's, you know, social anxiety people who, like I have a friend who has social anxiety. He has more panic, and I have more generalized anxiety, but it's all comes down to just being very overwhelmed by whatever situation you're in with that anxiety. I have small social anxieties like most people do, but nothing that's overwhelming for me. But, you know, for him, social anxiety is overwhelming, like interacting with new people or being in group settings. It just and I don't feel that. But I can understand what he's going through because I think the general of feeling of anxiety is pretty, pretty close to the same. Just depends. Some people have it in this situation, and some people have in that. For me, I would say it's over just overwhelming sensations in thoughts, and they can just cycle and go back and forth with each other. OJIG:It sounds like it's very common. ANDREW:That's the biggest thing I think I tried to come across within the book is that you're not alone. That's the thing that people see and struggle with the most is when they get these feelings. You can't feel what somebody else is feeling, so you don't know that the things you're feeling aren't just you going crazy that they're actually like a pretty common thing, and I don't usually use stats much. But like there is one that always stuck out was that there's about forty million people in the United States alone that suffer in their life with some sort of anxiety disorder, which is an enormous amount of people. And those were just the people that are telling the truth. You know, there are some that are hiding it or don't want to talk about it. I think in some way almost every human in their life goes through some form and some get caught in it more and it lasts for a very long time and some some don't, some just have, ah, easier time letting go of things. For me, it wasn't like that, I just got caught in a cycle. Habits are a big thing, but, yeah, people are alone. And when that's the first thing that I realized when I started reading other books and other people's blogs and stuff, and I was like, it made you feel a little like, ‘Oh, there's other people with this’. You take a deep breath and then a lot of them have gone through it, and they're like, Oh, yeah, things the anxiety doesn't really bother me anymore. And so you go, ‘Okay, how'd you do that?’ And then you start to learn. I try to tell people to educate themselves as much as possible. Understanding something is the first step to getting over it. I think I compared it in the book to when you have your ah, cell phone and they put, like, new software on it. And, you know, you don't know what the heck’s going on. You know, the apps are changing. You don't know what you're doing, and you get frustrated. But the more you do that, you're not gonna learn anything. So if you just take fifteen minutes and start to learn ‘ah ok’, then it's like ‘Oh, this is actually better’ and then you start to learn the phone then all of a sudden, like, just take the time to learn it and you're not afraid of using your phone. You were like, I mean, with anxiety prior to take a few months or even a year. But if you learn about it, it diminishes the fear that you have over it. OJIG: Take us through the process. How does anxiety start and how does it grow? ANDREW: For everybody is different. So I'll speak for me. It definitely started when I was a young. So I talk in the book about this thing called a snowball effect. And it's a pretty common thing that people use for a ton of things that I thought it applied well to this. I think you kind of have a point in your life where things start to happen and you can go this way or that way, you know. And, uh, I chose this way, whatever that way is. When I was young, I had this memory of being at a drive-in movies with my parents, and I was just I was four or five and I just started crying because I had these overwhelming thoughts that my parents were going to die someday. And I was really young, but the feeling that I remember is that I couldn't control, that was gonna happen. And that for me, it was like a big thing throughout my whole life is not being able to control things around me that are uncontrollable. And then I don't like that. And then, you know, you worry about those things, even though it's impossible to stop those things from happening. But I did that from a young age, and you just don't know. You're unconsciously you don't know what you're doing to yourself. So for me, it started like that when I was really young. And then I went down that way, and I would just constantly worry about things over and over and same patterns. And just after years of doing that, it just ballooned, snowballed. And then best way to put it is that it explodes. When I was in my twenties. I mean, I liked to go out on my friends and drink, and that doesn't help somebody who's already sensitive to anxiety. So then, ah, yeah, just just kind of exploded. So that snowball just builds and you don't know it's building and the only way to stop it from building is to change, and that's very hard. But if you don't change, you know it's like that, Einstein quote, paraphrasing: but the definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over. So a lot of people want to not feel what they feel, that they're not yet willing to change what they're doing. But that's not their fault, really. It's just kind of a symptom of anxiety. They're afraid to do it, but when you get there and you start the process, it's well worth it. OJIG: There are a lot of self help books out there about anxiety. What makes Overcoming Anxiety for People on the Go unique? ANDREW: So I definitely took a couple examples from a couple books that I love. And I think what makes my book and those books unique is that there's no, it's not about tricks and gimmicks. No pinch this nerve or, you know, take ten deep breaths. I'll use this essential oil and that, and those are fine, like I'm not knocking those. Those are good, but they're all temporary things that are very impermanent, simple things that will help you in this moment. And my book is more about the long haul. So it's about the process of changing your perspective on your thoughts and your sensations and all that stuff. And I think a lot of books out there nowadays are doing that more. Ten years ago or so, it was just about the gimmicks and tricks. But we've learned so much about, uh, your your mind and, you know and sensations and your awareness that the way to get through anxiety is acceptance, and being aware of it, instead of just reacting to it. Had people interview me before, and they always they go ‘so what are some tricks and tips on how to you know’ and I was like, I mean, I don't really want to give those cause that's not what it's about. I've done those before, and they will, they kind of will help, like breathing obviously help. It does help. But it's not gonna, it's not going to do anything tomorrow or the next day. So you gotta learn, to just see things differently, and it takes a long time. But everybody's process different. Some person get over in two months, two years, five years. It's all different. Everybody's different in that way. Yeah so I think it's unique and just that it doesn't. There's no tricks or gimmicks. It's just everything in there is about how to take big steps to getting or little steps to where you want to be. OJIG: I found it to be engaging, humorous and a very quick read. Why only eighty pages? ANDREW: Because I think I just wanted to engage people. And I don't I don't like long books. When I get a book that's like four hundred pages and it looks like a daunting task. So when I see a book that short, but I packed a lot of content in it and just, you know, eighty whatever, pages it is. I wanted to be a book that people could read in the sitting or two to sitting three things, and then it's just something you can take with you, and you can just just reference it. OJIG: And its small so you can carry it in your purse, backpack, satchel.ANDREW: Right and that's what I wanted it to be something like you said in a purse or backpack or whatever. And nowadays, to people don't have attention spans either, you know, so keep it short and the people love that, ‘Oh, I read your book and like to sitting down to go back and re-read some stuff’. So that the whole idea of keeping it short and carry it with you people are saying that they're doing that.OJIG: That's great. So you've been getting positive feedback so far? ANDREW: Yeah, it's been it's been great. And it's a little overwhelming sometimes, like, because I'm not a doctor or , you know, a psychiatrist, or therapist and whatever. And sometimes I don't feel totally qualified. But I'm not, I'm not giving anybody advice for like this is what you need to do, I'm just telling you, here's what I did. And if you can try that and it works, then great. If it doesn't, then you know. But I try to encourage them to read other books, and if they're not going to therapy, they probably should. I think everyone should go to therapy like the whole world. Everybody should, have some sort of therapy sometime. OJIG: We're all the walking wounded. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly. Everybody everybody has, you know their things. And but I have given people advice, but I try to do it from my own experience kind like a book. I stick to that because I don't want to tell somebody that they need to do something for them because I could get in trouble with that, especially if they do something and it doesn't work or they hurt themselves or something. I don't want it. So I just ‘Here's what worked for me’. And yeah, a lot of people message me and told me that they're implementing a lot of things I said and that it's helping little by little. You know, basically, I try to tell them is to be patient. That's the hardest part. It takes a lot of a lot of courage and a lot of willpower, because sometimes I'll have really bad adrenaline. Just pumping through my body, and you just I have to sit there and just watch TV or read your book. Just sit through it, because if you start fighting it, it just gets worse. And the cycle continues. And I knew that I had just to be like, ‘Okay, come on and just let's just have it out’ and then you sit there and sometimes it last for hours. It's draining, and you want to quit all the time, but gotta find it in you to keep pushing through. OJIG: It sounds like it's a practice. ID/BREAKIf you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today's guest is Andrew Castro. He's speaking about his experiences with anxiety and depression. He's recently written a book, Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go. OJIG: What are you hoping to achieve with this book? ANDREW: Well, first I wrote it, I think a lot for myself, just like a therapeutic process. And I just want, if it could just help some people. I don't know how many that’s going to be, if that's a hundred, I mean, five hundred, as long as it helps some people that's it's accomplished its goal. I just wanted to get people and I want people to know that that you don't have to be like this forever. That's the thing that scares I think everybody. And still I get that sometimes, like, I'll get a little bit of anxiety, and then, you know, those old thoughts would creep in and be like, ‘What if it's like this forever?’ But then I now I just ‘No. Let's just give about thirty minutes’ and you'll see it's just gonna fade away, and it usually does.OJIG: Is this the book you would have wanted to read when you first realized that you were dealing with anxiety, that this is what it was? And did you seek any medical guidance or advice? Did you see any professionals? ANDREW: Yeah. So this I didn't know it, but this would have been the book, you know, that I wanted to read. And then I did. There was a book called At Last The Life by Paul David. And my book is very much modeled like his but, just with my own experience. Yeah, that book was the book that was like that started me on getting to my recovery. You don't know what the time you're just looking for anything. I started therapy was in seventh grade. I remember just being overwhelmed by a lot of things then, and I, at that age, asked my parents to see a therapist. And, uh, it was very bene- I went to it for, like, ten, twelve years, something like that. And then I stopped. And now now I see one down the street from where I live in Sacramento every every few weeks or so. Just, you know, sometimes I don't even necessarily need it. But I talk about it. And then as far as medication and stuff for a couple months, I was on Xanax. But there was always something in me that I didn't want to be a slave to something. I think medication is great to help you get where you want to go. But if, I know a lot of people who take it just to get rid of their symptoms. I always try to, like, really walk the line here because medication is very beneficial in the right circumstances. But it just it could be a crutch, and you sometimes never want to let go with a crutch. And a lot of people just take medication and just don't change anything in their lives. That's when you ah, you don't go anywhere, you're just you're basically just you're numbing yourself and which some people you need it. At times, it's so overwhelming that you have to have it. But if you don't implement the other, the other practices that will actually change your whole perspective on what you're going through, then you're always going to need the medication. If you need medication, you should go to a professional and you should have a whole game plan and say, ‘Okay, I'm gonna be on this specific medication for four months and at two and a half months we're going to slowly wean off it, and while we're doing that we're going to get deep therapies to what's happening because what medication does it can take the edge off to give you room to, implement these things.’ Like sometimes people get so overwhelmed that they can't get their mind to accept what's happening because they're so overwhelmed. I've been a nervous flyer before too and still kind of am. And I've taken Xanax on a plane, and it works. Like you get you get really, you know, kind of mellowed out, and it gives you room to kind of organize yourself a little bit. But, you know, I always had the bottle, but it was almost like a comfort. And I remember, I go on trips and I always bring the bottle because I was like, just in case something doesn’t go over well. But I knew I wasn't gonna take it, like I just knew. But I knew if it was there and I had to or something that I could and then but when I really started noticed I was getting better was I remember that time I just had it and I was going on a trip and I just didn't bring it. I was like, ‘well, let's just see what happens’. And then I got through the trip and then you get confidence more you do that. So that's what from me, what it was was I felt personally that I could get through it without using medication. Not everybody can. I don't know if everybody should try either. OJIG: You have a phrase in the book you mentioned ‘Don't believe everything you think’. Explain what you mean by this. ANDREW: I got into meditation, like a couple years ago, two and a half years ago. That quote there didn't mean anything to me two and a half years ago. But, you know, I read a lot of books on especially on Buddhism and Eastern philosophy, you know, and, you know, my own personal perspective on is they seem to have something right on all that. And so what it is, what it means is that I have a section the book called The Thought Factory. And so I say that your brain is like a factory and its main product that it produces and exports are thoughts.OJIG: Assembly line.ANDREW: Assembly line, just thoughts. And they're just that's all they are. And if you really want to get really deep into it. You're really not even necessarily thinking all those thoughts. They're just just taking in stuff. And then, you know, smells will trigger a thought, or a sight will trigger a thought or a person will trigger something that just stored in your brain just keeps getting sent up. And then there's a great line in a book: Your mind directs your thoughts towards your awareness. So your awareness, you know there's awareness which we don't exactly know what it is. But there is awareness, and your mind projects these thoughts, and then they're so real and something overwhelming that we put all our energy in awareness into them so you can take a thought, like from get on airplane. And before I get on it, I just picture it crashing and burning and whatever. And that's not happening. That's not a real thing. That's hard for you to understand that, but like to not believe that is that's reality. That thought is happening right now. But you were projecting yourself into the airplane crashing and you're making yourself get all worried. But you're just sitting in the airport, doing nothing. So it's just a false, just false. OJIG: Having the space to ask yourself in the moment ‘Is this true?’ANDREW: Right, yeah, especially during meditation. You, can see thoughts just pass. They kind of float and then they burn out. That's a big thing with people with meditation is they think they're not supposed to think like I couldn't stop thinking. Well, you'd probably be dead if you weren't thinking. One thing that helped me was that your heart its function is to pump blood to the body, your liver, you know, detoxifies, your digestive system digests your food, your eyes see and your mind thinks. It's just a function of your body, and that's what it does. It thinks, and you can attach your awareness to certain things to problems, all the do all this stuff. But if you attach your energy and awareness to every thought you have, it's going to be, it's going to be rough. And, um, that's what happened with me. I would have negative, scary thoughts, but I would believe them so much because they were in my head. So I was like they have to be true and you have thousands of thoughts all the time. Like if those are all true that the world would be a really weird place. You don't have to believe any of it. You get to choose what you want to put your energy into and believe and go from there. But meditation really helped me with that. There's a monk, who said, ‘Don't believe your thoughts. They're fake news’, which I thought was great, especially for this time. OJIG: It's the beginning of the new year, and people may be setting intentions. Can you share a nugget of how listeners can change their habits or make a change around this? ANDREW: Yeah, I think doing one little thing differently is a start. When I was younger, I had bad OCD. And I did a bunch of different things before I went to bed. Like it took me a long time before I could got to sleep, right To check the blinds. I checked the locks and do this. You know, one night I just decided to eliminate one thing. You know, one little thing like tonight, I'm not going to do that. It was hard not to do that one thing. And then I don't the other things, but And then once I didn't do that one thing you to try and take it. So I think for people you know the new year. I think if you have ten, you know, really crappy habits that you know are just these aren't doing me any good, get rid of one and go from there. Because the biggest thing is gaining confidence and they talk about that a lot in Buddhism too; it’s faith in the things you've done, give you the confidence in the faith in yourself to keep going kind of thing. And any faith is great. But that, for me, was a big thing. Because so when people eliminate one little habit like for a New Year's resolution and they see that after a few weeks and ‘oh the habit’s kind of gone or it’s changed’ and they start to go, well, I could probably that with another habit and then you slowly start to do that, and that changes your perspective on, on, things. Because humans, we are our habits. If you consciously go through your day, you'll probably notice fifty things that you do every day almost the same way. And if a lot of those things are negative, you're inflicting harm on yourself through some of those habits than it's just going to keep building. And that's when you're gonna have a lot of stress and anxiety and depression. You know all that stuff because you're like watering those seeds. So that's what's going to grow. OJIG: Can you read some passages for our listeners? ANDREW: Sure. So I really like this one here. This one I'd like to talk about with people, but it's hard for people to hear this. I'll read, and then I'll explain. It says the universe doesn't owe you anything. The sooner you realize that things are just the way they are, and sometimes they're crappy, the sooner you will learn to accept your situation from that point on, you can decide who you want to be and how you want to get there. It's all up to you, But please realize your anxiety is not special. I've been so lost my own anxiety that I didn't realize close friends around me were suffering from the same thing and vice versa. We're all in this together. We all share some form of suffering. The quicker we can all realize that suffering is a part of life, the quicker we can master our response to that suffering. Basically, a much more gentle way of putting it is you are not alone. Okay, so I like this one's in the afterward, and it says, anxiety is not something you need to carry with you the rest of your life. At least you don't have to carry it the same way you have been carrying it. I hate when people tell me to manage my anxiety. The only thing I'm going to manage is keeping myself on task and dedicated to eradicating old habits, to shift my perspective on life. We got ourselves into this mess so we can definitely get ourselves out. So I like those because especially the first one, there was a friend of mine who was going through the same the same thing. And I didn't even know that because you're so caught up in all this is my problem. No one's feeling the way I'm feeling. But there are millions people feeling not only the way you're feeling, but exactly the way you're feeling. This isn't something that's unique to me. Like I'm the only one who has this disease or something like it's not a disease. It's just, you know, it's a psychological disorder and millions of people have it. And there was something I learned from Will Smith actor and he said he was using much of examples. But one was like If you were abused when you were a kid, which is awful and you have trauma from it is terrible. And it's it's a weird thing to hear because I'm not saying anything negative. But it's still that person's responsibility to fix it and to deal with what's happening because no one else can deal with it for them. People can help them and support, but same with, like, if you have a death in the family, do you still have the things that are left inside you that you have to learn to accept and be responsible for OJIG: Healing yourself.ANDREW: Healing yourself and you need you need support, you need people around you. But in the end, if you can't make the decision, the universe doesn't know anything. It's just, basically, you have to take the initiative to do it. What I've gone through is very minimal compared to someone who's like lost a parent when they're young or, you know he's living in some country that's torn apart by war. My problems are small comparatively, but I still need I need to sit down and go. These are my problems. I have to fix them. And if you want other people to fix them for you, that's never gonna happen. I wrote an article for this local online publication in Sacramento, and I said that I'm the one who built my life, so if I built it, I can tear it down and I can rebuild it kind of thing. And obviously, sometimes, genetically, you're more prone to things. But that doesn't mean that has to be you forever or whatever. It just means you have to work a little harder rebuilding it. My choices and habits built this building of anxiety. So, I can knock it down and I can build a new building next to it or far away, or whatever. You know what you're going through is not special. It's very common. And that's That's a good thing. I'm not trying to be mean about like it's just it's not special. Like I had somebody call me once. They were going through a really tough time they were asking me, How do I get rid of these feelings right now? And I just told him, You can't That's hard for them to hear. It was somebody close to me, so I was like to realize you can't get rid of it actually frees you from fighting them. OJIG:So it's part of the human condition. ANDREW: Yeah, that's like we were talking about Buddhism that we saw because there's lost there's disease, There's pain, there's all this stuff and you're never gonna be able to get rid of those things. You gotta learn to deal with those things. OJIG: How has anxiety or living with anxiety impacted you as a musician and as a performer? ANDREW: Started playing, writing songs maybe, like nine years ago. And I love doing it so much that I wanted it to be my career, But it's not a very easy thing to make into a career. So it caused for me a lot of stress because I just felt I wasn't made to have like a what you call a normal job. I guess, you know, you go to the office or you go work, whatever. But then I had this thing that I love to do that. I was getting better out, but it doesn't make any money, and money is a big stress builder. It's one of the biggest things that people have regrets about or, you know, are worried about in the future, and it causes a lot. And that caused me a lot of anxiety because I want to do this thing. But I couldn't make money at it. Then I move to Sacramento because a smaller area and I really networked and I made it my profession and I toured. It's a very exciting thing, so make a little exciting way to make a living. But it's very draining because you play shows sometimes with two people. When you leave town Or you're playing some restaurant or bar and no one's paying attention. Or you have ten shows booked in February and then four people call you cancel and you just lost like a thousand dollars. It's ah, the unknown cause me a lot of anxiety and stress. And so when I start writing this book, I took a break from music till about just a couple weeks ago, and I started writing again. I took, like, six months seven months. Just no, no writing, no recording and again changed my whole perspective on music. So before I was chasing it, like I wanted to be a star and beyond stage and playing music, and it was like getting competitive and stressing me out. I just now, I don't. Now they don't care. I don't want those things. I just don't I don't put my energy into go about a different way. I won't write the songs. I want to write a play. And people like him great. If they don't, no that’s it. OJIG: Did your anxiety ever prevent you from getting on a plane to go to a show or from going on stage? ANDREW: No. You know, I just have a weird way of doing things. I can't remember a time where I was just really terrified and didn't do it. I used to have to get drunk to get on the plane. That's how I used to do it. No matter what time is, the flight was at 7am and I got there. It was bad. But that's how I had to get on a plane. Because I was just, you know, on then that I've changed is now I don't I don't do that. The stage fright. I definitely had it. Remember, going open mikes out when I lived out here, I'd go to one's all around Berkeley in San Francisco, and I'd sign up. I go, Okay, I'm fifth, so I have about forty five minutes or an hour. So I go sit my car and I practice my songs over and over like two songs. That's all you get down like in there for like, an hour practicing. I get really nervous. But then once I get on stage, there's no nerves. And so I started to realize that, and I had a big show out here in San Francisco at The Independent and was opening for this guy, and I was like, sold out. No one knew who I was, and I was so nervous, so much adrenaline because, you know, it's five hundred people out there, and I was like, I'm solo act, or was, I’m gonna get a band now, so I was just by myself all the time. So I was just backstage. My friend came and I was just jumping up and down, trying to shake stuff out. Because I was just, like, really amped up. I’m gonna forget the lyrics, I’m gonna forget the melody. I’m gonna forget all this. And then I just got up there and the crowd just started cheering and screaming like I was the headliner. Well, all right, that's cool. Then I just started playing and everything's fine. So the anxiety has never prevented me from doing anything. Even when I was at my worst, I knew if I didn't do it, then it'd be easier to not do it the next time, too. Same with flying. I love to travel the one time I don't get on a plane then it's going to be easier to not get on the plane the next time. You know, the fear will just build and take over, and it’ll become easy not to do it. OJIG: Has writing this book helped you in your musical path? ANDREW: Yeah, it definitely has. Because at the time I wrote this book and made me take a break from music, which I never did. People would tell me this, this isn’t me saying like, you're the hardest working musician, it’s inspiring because I would just go to every open mic, play every show, I released four E.P.s within, like a twelve month span and then an album, and I just wouldn't stop. And then I took a break, changed my perspective, kind of like what's in the book. I just changed my whole perspective on it, and then my writing now is different than it was before. I think before I was trying to be something I wasn't. My first musical loves were like Tom Petty and Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen, all those. I want to got to go back to writing those songs, get a band and write like some pop rocks stuff that I really want to do . So that's what I'm doing now, and it's so it's learning more to just be myself.OJIG: Andrew, what does the future hold for you in terms of next steps?ANDREW: I'm going to start a podcast, so that's in the next. Hopefully in January, I want to talk a lot about the content of book, and just even it's going to be hopefully like bi weekly. And it'll even talk about the current state of the world because that causes a lot of people anxiety right now. I'd like to get into talks to in front of groups, especially places like here, like colleges with younger people that are at that point where these kind of things can really, creep up on them and then music for me. I'm gonna start a band, and I'm going back to the studio, hopefully this week with some new songs and try a whole different approach to it. OJIG: It sounds exciting. ANDREW: It should be hopefully.OJIG: And where can our listeners get more information and find your book? ANDREW: Yeah, so the easiest way to find it on just Amazon. You search probably just search Andrew Castro but or the title of the book is Overcoming Your Anxiety for People on the Go. There's a Kindle version, and there's the paper back. I have a website, but I'm waiting till I get the podcast going everything before I start directing people to that. Right now, everything's going through Amazon. OJIG: Any parting words for listeners who may be anxious but struggling to name it? ANDREW: Yeah, I would say one is to educate yourself. There’s this book, mine, At Last a Life by Paul David. There's a book called Dare by Barry McDonough. Those are three, including mine. Three good books that you can go to, and those will help you and be patient. You're going to feel good when you read the books, like, Oh, you know, and then that's going to go away and you're going to go back to the way you felt. Never put a time limit on your recovery. You go into it with a full dedication and trusting the process. You're going to have setbacks, big ones. If you're having a setback, that means that before the setback you were doing better. Educate yourself, be patient, and you're not alone. I mean, there's probably hundreds of millions of people that are going through some sort of anxiety disorder at some point in their life. If you're not patient, you're gonna drive yourself into the ground. And if you don't educate yourself, you're not gonna understand that what you have is pretty common, and it's it's fixable. And then if you don't understand, you're alone, you're always going to feel isolated. So I think those three things are good to take with you.OJIG: Thank you so much.ANDREW: Thank you for having me.OUTRO: You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today's producer was Ojig Yeretsian. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. See you in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Elie Katzenson interviews East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest (EBABZ) organizers Gillian Dreher, June Hong, and Maira McDermott about the specialness of zines and their relevance as underground publications for activists, artists, and writers in search for total creative freedom and publishing options.Transcript:Elie Katzenson:This is Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators.I am Elie Katzenson. I am here with the organizers of EBABZ, which stands for the East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest, which is coming up this Saturday, December 8th at Omni Commons in Oakland.It's from 11:00 to 5:00. That venue, Omni Commons, is located at 4799 Shattuck Avenue, which is super close to the MacArthur Bar, and there's a drop off on the sixth bus line in addition to other bus lines. For now, I am here with Jill, June, and Mira. Hi y'all.Mira:Hey.Jill:Hey.Elie Katzenson:Let's start by talking about what a zine is.Mira:A zine, in my opinion, is really anything you want it to be. It doesn't even need to be printed. You can have online zines, digital zines. It's anything that you feel really passionate about or interested in that you want to share with other people, and you just kind of put together this little book.It doesn't have to be a traditional book shape. It can be any shape you want. Staple it, copy a bunch of pages, hand it out. That's a zine.Elie Katzenson:Zines are interesting because, as I understand it, historically they've been and they continue to be like an underground publication used a lot by activists, artists, and writers that are looking for the ability to self publish, which affords them total freedom.There's a lot of identity exploration that maybe traditional publishing houses wouldn't allow for that space, and so you have lesser represented communities exploring their identities.With this, I'm thinking queer people, I'm thinking like there's a lot of diasporic exploration, mixed identities, mixed ethnic identities, anarchist groups, a lot of unique politics are getting space. Then kind of nontraditional relationship models. I've seen some like polyamory and nonmonogamous related zines.Really valuable information that isn't able to get exposure elsewhere, in zines gets massive exposure. These fests, which take place across the country, they are really hubs of, this is a big word to say, but like revolutionary information sometimes. It all starts it seems on a small scale, but this work can have major repercussions in a positive sense for a lot of people.Mira:In my personal experience it has been revolutionary, because through zines that's how I have found the words to work through my own gender identity, and that was revolutionary for me.Elie Katzenson:What Mira just said is proof of why zines are so important. In your experience why are zines so special?June:I think the beauty of the zine is, as Mira said, the total freedom and creative control you can have over your publication, and because you don't have to go through the process of a publishing house, and you self publish, you can really make it anything you want it to be.Jill:I also love the element of like speed and spontaneity. An event can happen and you can make a zine about it immediately. I think it's so great for like activism, or current events, because you can react, and share your ideas. Any idea, super quickly.Elie Katzenson:When I think of something like writer's block, or like fear of showing your work, zines, in this punk way, emphasize the naturalness and the power of your first response,and sort of like first thoughts. How do you let go enough to just say like I'm going to put myself out there. I'm going to put my work out there. How do people do that? I'm so impressed by that with zines that I've seen. They're very thoughtful, but they're not over-thought and they're not manicured to the point of perfection.June:I feel like that's such like a classic problem with creative work or like an issue is at what point do I feel comfortable enough to like share my work. With zines I feel like there's such a broad spectrum. Even the range of zines that I've seen some look definitely more spur of the moment, first draft, made photocopies, and published versus zines that look more like traditional books.I feel like the answer to like when do you feel comfortable? Like how do you get over that hump? Like is this getting over your own perfectionism to publish is something that zines kind of help with, because it is so easy to make. That's one less barrier for you to like put your content out there.Elie Katzenson:How zines have been seen more in the mainstream, and so you're talking about the first draft zine, which is a little more, not less marketable. Then you have commercialized zines that maybe are a little less substance oriented.Maybe a little less political, a little less extreme, a little more surface level, and I've been kind of curious about what the dynamic is within the zine community in regards to content.Is there more collaboration in the same community? There seems to be maybe a little bit more friendship. I know that treating your zines is a big part of what you do when you table.Jill:I've had really good experiences making friends through zines, and even making friends zines on Facebook groups, and then traveling to those people's fests, and let me stay at their house.I've never met these people, and there's just a level of trust that comes in I think when you're sharing your work that's really personal. You kind of get to know someone and then they're like, "Yeah, I've never met you but I think you're not going to murder me, so come stay at my house for a weekend."Thinking specifically about when I went to Omaha Zine Fest, and the organizers of that fest were super sweet. I think there's just a lot of camaraderie in the zine community, because we're all just kind of doing the same thing. Not the same exact thing, but we all have the same passion for this art form.Elie Katzenson:This is the ninth year of EBABZ. As I understand it, it was kind of born out of people enjoying Portland Zine Fest, and San Francisco Zine Fest, and thinking that there was enough artists and creators in the East Bay to have a fest here, and even the organizers nine years ago are different than the organizers that are y'all, right?Mira I know that you kind of had like this sub-zine fest, The Bay Area Queer Zine Fest. I think that the space that EBABZ creates, not only at The Fest, which I've been to a couple of years in a row, but the work that you're championing and really like helping proliferate, how can people and the community of the East Bay in general help EBABZ thrive and help zinesters thrive. How can we support the creation of this work?Jill:Volunteer.June:Yeah.Mira:Show up day of. That's really important still.June:Please volunteer.Jill:It's crazy. My boyfriend especially lately has been in awe of all of the work that we've been doing. I think with events like this you don't realize, you always think, "Oh, someone's in charge."No one's in charge. We're just kind of making all this up as we go, and like working together and like figuring out how to get stuff done. Like I'll come home from our meetings working sessions and he'll be like, "Oh what did you do today?" I'll tell him and he'll be like, "What? Like you're doing so much stuff. That's so cool."So yeah, it would be great for people to get involved.Elie Katzenson:What kind of things can people do?Jill:So much, so everything, from all year long, we have different events. Mira's always really good, and June at like planning, fundraising events, getting in touch with like different organizations, figuring out how we can work together, teaching people how to make zines, like workshops like that.We also do planning stuff throughout the year. We have to like send out applications. We have to figure out like what are our mission statement is.Mira:There's administrative work, but all the way to like really fun poster makes.June:Yeah, make a flyer. InstagramMira:Follow their Instagram y'all.Jill:There's fun stuff happening. Voluntaring looks fun if you follow the Insta.June:I think a lot of people are afraid to volunteer, because putting yourself out there is always really scary. Also maybe in capitalist society in general, there's the concept that you have to pay a lot of time in a place before you have any power or say, and so you think that you shouldn't be there helping, or deciding how things are run because you're new, but EBABZ is a democracy as far as I can tell, a major democracy, and people are really welcome, and like radically welcome. It's radically inclusive.Jill:A friend of mine reached out to me and said they were too busy to volunteer but they know this person who's in high school who was looking for like some way to get involved with zines.We brought them on, and they have just gone for it. They reached out to like all the different high schools in the area to ask for people to get involved, share their zines. Any level of effort is appreciated.Mira:For sure. I feel like that can happen in such different ways too. Like so as we said, there's like many different capacities in which you can volunteer, but also like we all started volunteering at the same time three years ago, and how I showed up was I just saw like a volunteer meeting on Facebook.I just like showed up without really knowing that much about The Zine Fest. I'd like gone the previous year, but my friend had posted it on Facebook, so I was like, "Yeah, well I'll just like show up, and now I've continued to stick with it for the past three years, so you never know how it's going to go.Elie Katzenson:Tomas is one of the organizers who I think is not strictly active anymore, and he was talking about the idea that a zine more than maybe certain other mediums is really like a one-on-one interaction between the creator and the reader.What makes a zine one-on-one interaction? Why is that one-on-one interaction really essential, especially when you're talking about subject matter that is frequently very intimate, and life changing I guess I would say, because I think so much of reading zines is related to identity, and people find a sense of belonging that maybe they're not experiencing as frequently in reading fiction.Mira:In my experience it's been kind of like handing someone my diary, and they just happened to be standing right in front of me sometimes making really awkward eye contact. It's terrifying, but that's just kind of what it is.I don't know. It's really cool to have these one-on-one interactions with people even if it's not in person, and then have them give you feedback, or tell you that, "Oh, this zine meant a lot to me, because x, y or Z," and then it's like, "Oh, I'm not alone in what I'm feeling. Wow, this feels great." There's like solidarity with other people over just, I don't know, stuff that maybe you felt like you were alone in.Jill:There's those kinds of zines. I feel like that with a lot of mirror zines, and a lot of per zines, that are like diary type zines, but there's also the zines where it's more communal, and I feel like rather than like a one-on-one, it's this feeling of entering into a group just through reading.I'm thinking of ones that are collaborative that community produces, or ones that maybe share like history of like a place or a thing that you weren't familiar with. It's like you're entering into this world more of a shared base instead of one-to-one. It's one to a bunch. Even if you've never met those people, or seen those people.Elie Katzenson:When people think about getting involved in community, it seems like you have to be a people person, and really enjoy being extroverted all the time, etcetera. What's interesting about Zines is there's face for everyone, and there's sensitivity to whoever you are.You are just radically accepted and loved, and that respect is just so special. I don't think that's really a question, but I think it's something that I want people who maybe aren't familiar with zines, or who haven't participated in an event where zines are shared to know that that is really the environment that is created at a fest.Like Willy Wonka and The Chocolate Factory where you're going to find the level that you want. Maybe you find the blueberry early, and you get rolled away, or you make it to the end and you get your gobstopper. You know? So.June:Yeah, totally. That reminds me of how earlier we were talking about how to support zine communities and stuff, and we talked about volunteering, but also what I found that has been super important to me within zine organizing, and the Oakland art community in general, is I found that people are so supportive and welcoming, and down to help you out with your projects.People's generosity and acceptance has really blown my mind. It's super inspiring to see people be making things and helping other people make things, and being able to express their selves, and creative projects through helping each other out. That's another way to support is help a friend make something.Elie Katzenson:Totally. I read this newsletter, it's called The Creative Independent. I'll have to send you a link, because it's really great. They interview an artist every day, and sometimes they talk about in different art worlds there's more competition than others. Right?One of the pieces of advice that I read today was about being confident in charging for your work. People can pay for your work, and I don't know why that seems so radical to me, because it can feel so hard to say like, "No, that costs money, or that Zine is 10 bucks." You have really made something, and that's like a sacred exchange.Mira:It's hard sometimes, but I feel like the time that I'm most able to stick out for myself and my work is when people just try to take it off the table like it's free.It's the only time I'm really adamant like "No, I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into this." That happened at zine event that I'm tabling at. It's hard to put a price on something you've created, but sometimes it's necessary because you have to even or you have to pay your bills.Elie Katzenson:Right? I mean even beyond breaking even though, right? It shouldn't just be, I just had to pay for my materials. It's like, "No, it's okay for me to make money off of a work that I made."Jill:Totally. Yeah.Elie Katzenson:But why does it feel so hard to do that?Mira:It can be hard to do because money obviously is not like the end-all-be-all of the world, but you also need it to survive, and pay the bills. It's something I do think about is why do we not hesitate to buy a five dollar coffee, but you have a problem with buying a five dollar zine, or something like that. I don't know. Not that it's always necessarily like that, but-June:Yeah, I think it is important to keep in mind value and the effort that people put into making creative work that isn't necessarily sold in a store, and for some reason that seems more official. Okay to give money to.Mira:Both as organizers charging for space, and on the zinester side of the table, charging for these things filled with ideas. We've been conflicted with anticapitalist sentiment too. Then like charging for things.If I'm making something that's against consumerism, and then I'm charging for it, like, "Oh, what do I do? What's happening?" It's all about valuing yourself, and your ideas and-Elie Katzenson:Right. You still have to function in the environment that we were functioning in, [crosstalk]June:It's not that we like money, but-Mira:Yeah.June:Give me my moneys.Mira:Yeah, that's, yeah. Personally I feel like that's been really hard.Elie Katzenson:It's interesting to me, because the price that you're charging the zinesters is quite fair in my opinion. I think it's what, 50 bucks if you're accepted?June:No, not even that.Mira:It's less.June:That's for a double.Mira:For a half table we have a sliding scale, 20 to $40, and then if you have a full table, it's 50 to 75 I want to say. We also-Elie Katzenson:You've always employed a sliding scale?Mira:Always a sliding scale, and also if people have financial struggles, they could email us and we waive the fee.Elie Katzenson:Wow.Jill:Some zine fests are not like that. It's really nice to be able to be a part of one that is like that.Elie Katzenson:I want to talk about The Fest schedule in general. I know the Rock Paper Scissors Collective did a memorial fund, The Rheo Memorial Fund, where they were giving away grants of $100 for people to make zines.You could apply for this zine scholarship. That was really special, because again, $100 means a lot. Be it to EBABZ if they can get a table, or just being able to make 50 copies of their work.Okay. So again, reminder the East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest is this Saturday, December 8th it's from 11 to five at Omni Commons, 4799 Shattuck avenue. It's free to get in. No admission. All these tables you can buy zines and peruse.I know that there's some workshops happening. Can you tell me a little bit about that?Mira:We have three different workshops. They're each about an hour long. We have writing from the margins, creativity, and embodiment for artists of color with Fatima Nasir. This one sounds awesome. It's a writing workshop, meditative practices, some brainstorming, and sharing stories.Elie Katzenson:What Times that?Mira:That one is at 12 and then at 1:30 we have mixed media sticker making with Raphael Tapra the third. Sounds extremely fun. You just use a bunch of stuff and make stickers. Very DIY. That's at 1:30 until 2:30, but you can stop by. It's kind of like an in and out situation.Elie Katzenson:Awesome.Mira:Or you can say the whole time. At 3:00 we have letterpress basics with Christie Holahan, and she's gonna show how this tabletop water press works.Then everyone's going to get to make good thing. They're gonna choose a phrase, and then everyone's going to let her press that phrase.Elie Katzenson:Cool. What part of Omni are they doing those in? Do you know? Cause it's like those two big rooms, right? The entry room, and then the larger back room.Mira:It's in the entry room and it's way in the back. You'll see these big wall partition screen things.Elie Katzenson:Oh cool.Mira:It's behind the partition.Elie Katzenson:Awesome. Couldn't have asked for a better workshop description. I was reading online that you are doing something new this year. I think it's called a zine store.June:Yeah. So the zine shop is something new that we're trying out this year. Mostly in response to how we were feeling that we wanted to include as many people as possible, because there are a limited number of tables, but we do get a lot of applications.For people who either didn't get to table, or just have like one or two zines, and don't feel like they can fill a table, they actually still have time to drop off their zine at five Friday at E.M. Wolfman Downtown. It's a bookstore. The organizers will be there the whole day selling them instead of having all of those people having to table.Jill:Another thing we're trying different this year one of our organizers had this cool idea. At all these fests, it's always a person behind a table, and it is super weird. I'm sure for anyone who's been to an event like this, or a craft show before, when you're walking around, and you're like, "Do I make eye contact? Do I not make eye contact? I want to look at this stuff. But I don't want them to feel offended if I don't buy the stuff."It's this kind of tense relationship sometimes. Sometimes it's really fun and you make good connections and you have a great time. Sometimes different personalities, some people feel awkward.One of our organizers was like, "What if we move the zinesters out from behind the table." It creates a more like open layout, and visitors can kind of like file through and peruse without having to have these tense eye contact moments.The tabler will still be there, but it's off to the side, and it creates more opportunities for organic conversations.Elie Katzenson:That's interesting.Jill:Yeah it's our first year doing it. So we'll see.Elie Katzenson:Oh I'm really excited to hear that, because I'm totally used to the awkward dynamic. I just put that Mona Lisa smile on my face for like an hour.Jill:Yup. Same. It's like part of the thing.Elie Katzenson:Yeah.Jill:We still have tables like that, so you will get an opportunity to show your Mona Lisa smile. But yeah, it'll be cool.Elie Katzenson:I think sometimes I personally want to engage in conversation, but I'm conscious of taking up too much space, or maybe they need to spend time with other people and I'm scared of taking too much attention, but sounds like people are maybe more open to speaking than I think that they are. Right?Jill:Yeah. We should mention that we're only using the wheelchair accessible rooms, and it's kid friendly.June:We have the childcare room, but we do not have childcare. BYO Care. You can use the room. That's what Rebecca said. BYO Care.Elie Katzenson:It's wheelchair accessible and you can bring your kids. You can't bring your dogs.June:No.Elie Katzenson:I know. My life is not fair.Jill:You can't have it all.Mira:You really can't.June:After The Fest, there's a EBABZ after party that's happening from six o'clock to around 10 o'clock at Classic Cars West slash Hello Vegan Eats. So yeah, come through.Mira:There's going to be like 10 djs.June:I think it's going to be like six.Mira:Six to 10.June:Six to 10 djs.Elie Katzenson:If you each had kind of one last sentiment or thought to put out into the world as an EBABZ organizer, or something that you'd like to put out there for the end of this interview.June:Just every year. I'm so grateful for zine community, the applications we receive, and the care that is taken in those applications. Also my fellow organizers I'm super grateful for it, because everyone really tries their hardest. Put's a lot of effort into it. Also, yeah, I'm eternally grateful to Aura for introducing me to this community and I think of her.Jill:I went to cal, and I was super DIY, and in high school I feel I was super punk into all this stuff. Then you grow up, and you have to get a job and you have to make money. I have a mortgage now.I start to get out of touch with all my roots and this happy community and what matters in life. Coming to Zine Fest, and volunteering with Zine Fest, reminds me of all that stuff, and keeps me connected, and keeps me grounded in reality, and what's good.Mira:Sort of to echo what both of you were saying, I think organizing EBABZ has been one of the most fulfilling things I've ever done. For that I am eternally grateful to Aura for getting me involved. Also if you come to The Fest, please bring caffeine for the organizers.June:Yes.Jill:I don't drink coffee.Elie Katzenson:The East Bay Alternative Book and Zine Fest is taking place on December 8th from 11:00 AM to 5:00 PM at Omni Commons, which is located at 4799 Shaddock Avenue in Oakland. You can follow EBABZ online on Instagram at E-B-A-B-Z-I-N-E fest, or visit them at their website, EBABZfest.com. Thanks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Berkeley filmmaker, novelist, playwright and teacher, Mary Webb, discusses her latest short film Living Room Revolution: The Race Dialogues which shows how the power of listening can tackle stereotypes and build community.Transcript:Announcer:This is Method to The Madness, a biweekly Public Affair Show on KALX Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today, host, Ojig Yeretsian, is speaking with Mary Webb. She's a novelist, playwright, teacher, filmmaker, trailblazer and peace builder. Her latest short film is Living Room Revolution: The Race Dialogues.Ojig Yeretsian:Hi, Mary. Before we launch into the film, can you please tell us what inspired you to create a dialog group in the first?Mary Webb:In the first place, it was a film and it was called Long Night's Journey into Day, not to be confused with Eugene O'Neill's Long Day's Journey into Night. It was two Berkeley women, Deborah Hoffman and Francis Reid who made this film. I saw it alone. It wasn't as if I was chatting with my friends afterwards.I was thinking and thinking it was a film about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. I thought we used to pick at them because we thought we were ahead. Now, it seems as if they're ahead. A lot of people on the radio were talking about people should talk about race and they don't do it. I thought, "Well, I know some people. I have a living room. Why don't I do it?"Ojig Yeretsian:Did you ever think in those days that whatever you created would move forward 18 years?Mary Webb:We've started the 20th. I didn't think about it one way or another. I'm not a big think about the future person. Let's deal with what we're doing right now.Ojig Yeretsian:You just had your 72nd meeting. What do you think it is about this dialogue group that sets it apart from other conversations?Mary Webb:That's a great question. It's an attempt to get people from very different kinds of backgrounds to communicate with each other on a deep level about one of the worst problems in our society, namely racism. People have to say why they're there at the beginning. A lot of people say, "I'm here to listen and learn." That's kind of beautiful. I think that's true. We share food as they say in Africa first. Everybody brings food, no money exchanges hands. We have a topic each time. We have two moderators to keep us in check mildly. We go at it.Over the years, relationships have developed between people who would never have met had they not come to my house for this event. That's a wonderful thing too.Ojig Yeretsian:As a society, we're so entrenched in our particular set of viewpoints and polarized. Why are stereotypes and racism so hard to talk about and why is it so important to talk about these things?Mary Webb:That's a big question. For certain African-Americans, for example, they would not particularly want to talk about what they really felt in front of white people or after all the perpetrators in terms of a group. Some white people are maybe carrying a lot of white guilt and they would think they didn't want to talk about that. But people, in general, if you can get them into talking as they eat and as they make personal contacts, I think do want to go deeper.I was aware when I started this that I was probably going to give up a lot of my social life if I did this because it would be work to get it going. But it is a social life, and it's a social life on a much deeper level. I can remember going to parties when I was 19 and saying, "Why don't people discuss serious things at parties?" Everybody would say, "Oh yes." Then, they'd go back to what they were doing. And I'd say, "Well, why don't you do it now?" This was not a popular thing to say. I was a troublemaker even then.Ojig Yeretsian:How do you create or ensure safety in this environment? What makes this environment so special?Mary Webb:The moderators do that. We go around the room at the beginning and the moderators ask each person to say why they're there. We get a little sense of people if they're new people there. If you're having a dialogue in your house against racism, you try to make the house feel friendly to people.I also teach classes in my house. For me, it's fairly easy. I love the idea of people using my home in this way to actually communicate with each other on a very deep level about important things and then they get to know each other and they come from different groups. Some people might never have gotten to this. Now, people say from Africa, one of our moderators, Deborah Hailu is Eritrean and Ethiopian and our other moderator at this time is African-American, Karl Debro. Those are the people who are "the authority figures" in the room, but it's very gentle in a way and yet there's a lot of freedom.Ojig Yeretsian:With topics such as race and health, African-American, and immigrant groups, rivals or allies and parenting against racism, conversations can become heated. In my experience with dialogue, it requires a certain level of openness to being uncomfortable. How do you maintain respectful communication when there is strong disagreement in the room?Mary Webb:Well, I have to go back to the moderators. The moderators are the main reason that that happens. Kate Mayer, who's my filmmaking partner, makes these incredible brownies. Every now and then, a few people would get too upset and it was close to dessert. Someone would say, "Give them one of Kate's brownies." It's become a joke that people come only for Kate's brownies. There's a lot of joking. There's a lot of laughter. If you look at the film Living Room Revolution: The Race Dialogues, 10 minutes, you'll see laughter there. That helps.Ojig Yeretsian:Can you tell us about any problems you've had to face as founder and host of the Living Room Dialogue group on race, racism and ethnicity, and from where do you draw your energy?Mary Webb:I think that, to the extent that I plan, that I always plan to have things I start continue. That's just the way I think. I have, they told me, a fair amount of energy. I think everyone has energy and they choose to put it somewhere or somewhere else. I try not to spend most of my energy watching other people do things. I like to go to the theater. I like to go to movies, but I've also done stage productions. I'm learning to make films. Kate and I made this film with Ed Hertzog who was our cinematographer for that Living Room Revolution: The Race Dialogues. That's how we learned to make a film.I would rather do things with my energy than watch other people do things or sit around and talk about the world would be wonderful if only these people would do this. My reaction to that is, "But what are you doing?" I love doing things, and I love seeing these people come together and I realized that isn't just social, but it is social.Ojig Yeretsian:I think people get inspired from seeing your commitment and your level of perseverance. Having been to a few of your meetings, I know how exhausting it could be afterwards because your mind is still spinning and your heart has opened in a way. It's like vulnerable making.Mary Webb:The solution to that is that some of us sit up for three or four hours in process and then sometimes people stay over and we go to brunch the next day. Processing is helpful. You can do as much or as little of that as you want. I suppose you could have a small group meeting, say, the week after to see how something went if you wanted to do that.I always meet with Deborah Hailu and Karl Debro way ahead of the date so that we can get a date, a specific date we can all do decide on the topic and talk about any difficulties that might have occurred at the last dialogue.Ojig Yeretsian:What compelled you to make this film?Mary Webb:I was thinking about that only yesterday. I always knew from the very beginning that there had to be a film if I was going to start the dialogue. Ed Hertzog happened to be in my class. He was in my writing class and I said, "Ed, would you make this film when we start this?" We hadn't even started yet. He said, "Sure." He could work it out. He did all the footage and then he had too many things to do.Suddenly, he couldn't do the whole film and then I thought, "Well, Kate Mayer had actually made her living doing videos at one time, medical videos." I said something to her about, "Would you look at this footage?" She said, "I was thinking about the same thing you were thinking." It ended up that she took it all home and two weeks later, I was involved as a film maker with her because she liked the idea of us doing it together, and I did too, but there was always going to be a film. I don't know why because it popped into my head very soon after the idea of doing the dialogue.Announcer:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, Ojig Yeretsian is speaking with Mary Webb about her innovative social justice endeavor, The Living Room Revolution: Race Dialogues.Ojig Yeretsian:Do you think it's a resource and an example like a way to show people to demonstrate what dialog is if they might be interested?Mary Webb:It's an amazing resource. We had Mark Verlander, graphic artist who made us a beautiful card, so I can give the card to strangers and say, "I have something I want to give you." Then, I showed them this and say, "This film will take only 10 minutes of your very valuable time to see and perhaps you'll be interested in starting one yourself or in coming to ours."Ojig Yeretsian:The film is available for viewing by the public. It's available at livingroomrev, R-E-V.com, One word livingroomrev.com. Yes.Speaker 4:People are talking about race and single race groups, right? When people get together with people are their own race, they're talking about their perspectives and what they think. But very rarely is it the case that people are talking across racial lines to each other about their experiences. That's what's missing in that sort of the national dialogue about race. It's almost exclusively a single race discussion.Speaker 5:It brought to mind my own history of having been born during the Second World War Jewish and the tremendous push, unspoken push, to not connect with my Jewish heritage in any of the religious or history to feel culturally Jewish. Yet in terms of the interface with other kids at school, it was this message of don't forget you're Jewish and fit in. It's very painful, painful.Speaker 6:When I speak about my experiences, no way intended to silence you for one or anyone else. If that needs to be the space, if I can't tell you that something bothers me, then I decided to myself that racism perpetuates itself in silence. I want you to always feel that you can speak up and I may not respond to you in the way that you might feel comfortable with, but that's okay.Speaker 7:If I wanted to fill out an application, I'm supposed to really fill out the white. Did I feel the racism or anything in this country? I don't know if I can call it racism, but I never felt comfortable.Speaker 8:My other friend was a little surprised. She didn't feel to me a minority. In some ways, when she came to the dialogue, she realized, "Oh my goodness, I'm a minority." I mean, who is white? I don't know. I don't feel white because even though I tell them, "I'm white." Who are you? What are you? I say, "I'm white."Speaker 9:I'm trying to figure out what that means and what we're talking about when they say, "Iranians are considered white by who and where and how has it manifested?"Speaker 10:It is great to have a place to come where you can commune with people, where you can break bread and share thoughts and feel like you have a community that provides you with a psychic support and spiritual support and, sometimes, even political support.Speaker 11:That's really a joy to sing with that group of eight bases and I am the only white boy.Speaker 12:What are you? People want to classify you. If they can put you in that kind of box, they don't feel good, I guess. I don't know.Speaker 13:If you don't have a lot of color in your skin, you can't go around really saying that you're a person of color or can you?Ojig Yeretsian:On there also are other resources such as starting your own dialogue in 10 easy steps. You're trying to get the word out and you really want to promote this as a way to navigate our political cultural terrain by having these civil conversations with each other.Mary Webb:Yes, I want it to be a national movement and some have started in San Francisco, one in Half Moon Bay which is bilingual. As we build communities that are multicultural, as people begin to understand each other's points of view more deeply, that's conceivably a deep cultural change. If you feel that you want to start something like this and you feel you're not the most perseverant or extroverted person in the world, you need to get a partner to work with you who will do the things that you don't want to do. As we start the 20th year, we have had only two sets of moderators, one producer, me, one place to have it.People feel good when they walk into my house. This is what I've been told. When you open the door into the living room, the living room invites you to come in. You could have arranged the furniture in 60 different ways that wouldn't have been as good. Everyone can speak from every chair in the room and reach everyone else. Occasionally, when we're really crowded, we have a few people sitting on the stairs and they sometimes have to stand up and come down so people can see them. But for a limited space, it works very well. I cannot emphasize enough how important food is.Ojig Yeretsian:I'm more familiar with dialogues that take place with groups that are in conflict. There's Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, Arab ones, and the one you host is unique because it focuses on the American experience with all the diverse cultures and the history and the background of racism. Tell us how you've come up with the topics.Mary Webb:Okay. We have this thing called the box. It's a cardboard box, and I was trained in the south, although I grew up in New York City, I was trained in Letcher County, Florida, in doing things the grassroots way. That means the simplest possible way you could do it with the least amount of money spent. You take a cardboard box, and you cut a slot in the top. People can take three by five cards out of it if they're going to have to write down what they will say later because they have to wait. They have to raise their hands and wait.They can also put a topic in the box on a three by five card. Then, we try to encourage people to give us a lot of topics, choices. Then, Karl and Debbie and I meet, and we go through all these. We try to either pick one or synthesize some and come up with a topic that will be interesting enough and popular enough so that people feel it is worthy of their coming to this event and giving up after all, in our case, it is a Saturday night when you could be doing many other things in the Bay Area.If you knew this was going on, why would you want to be anywhere else? There's nothing like this anywhere else. Now, what I want to see happen is there will be things like it anywhere else. Yours is different. Each one is different and that's fine. They can be done in schools, workplaces. They can be done in people's homes.Ojig Yeretsian:It seems like it builds community and promotes understanding and growth. Where can our listeners get more information?Mary Webb:If you go to livingroomrev.com, and it will tell you some things about it and you can contact me through my email, maryh as in Harry, webb13@yahoo. Please, when you email me, give me your phone number too. It's much faster.Ojig Yeretsian:That's Webb with two Bs. Why race, racism and ethnicity?Mary Webb:I don't think I picked it. I think it picked me. I had been in the civil rights movement in the south. I had started an African-American dance troupe, which I was told by white people in Berkeley I couldn't possibly do. I did it. I ran it for seven years, and it's still going on with my lead dancer running it. Currently, it's called the LaVern Porter dance troupe because she's the one who's running it. This is something that's bothered me since I heard of it and I started studying in the Holocaust when I was eight years old because I went to a largely Jewish school and people were all impacted by that.I thought if we have anything like this, I'm going to be involved in it. Of course, I didn't realize we had already had many, many things like that. That's always been something that I felt that I needed to deal with, and this was a new way of dealing with it. I'm very, very, very passionate about this and very, very committed to it. I believe that the more dialogues you start, the more you will see what a flexible way of getting people together it is.People are always complaining about getting people together and my response to that is, "Fine. Get them together then." It's not that hard. It takes some work, but anything that's worth doing takes work.Ojig Yeretsian:It seems like in Berkeley, it might be easier to get people together to talk about race. Maybe, that's an incorrect assumption. How about other places like rural parts of the state or in the country or other geographic regions?Mary Webb:One of the reasons I get to do so much is because I do things rather than thinking about what could happen if I were to do things. I'm throwing this out to people right now. If you're interested in starting something in your workplace, I don't care if you live in Berkeley or Timbuktu. Then, you can email me. If you leave me a number, I will call you back, and we can talk about it.I don't believe that it's much easier in Berkeley. I think it's different. I saw how things were done in the south. It was easier to build community in the south than it is here because, here, everybody thinks they're right and that they know it all. This is not good for learning and listening. It's nice to see those people get in there who know everything and have them say they'd like to listen and learn.We're in a high-powered intellectual community. That doesn't mean that everybody's heart is educated. We're educating people's hearts. It's terrible what's going on in this country. Of course, there are terrible things that have gone on all over the world. When people get together and they respect each other and they learn sometimes to love each other, everything changes.Ojig Yeretsian:In your group, it encompasses all different ages and ethnicities and cultures.Mary Webb:We have someone from Zimbabwe who has very interesting things to say.Ojig Yeretsian:And Filipino-American and South American and Asian like there's a breadth.Mary Webb:A lot of-Ojig Yeretsian:Of voices.Mary Webb:A lot of African Americans, a lot of, say, European descend and white people. Those would be the two large groups. Then Africans, obviously, Deborah Hailu, Eritrean-Ethiopian and [inaudible] from Zimbabwe and [Anne Wigo]. It's different every single time. Wilfred Galila, our cinematographer, is Filipino and he's been with it a while.Ojig Yeretsian:Having come from a deep tradition of activism, being the founder of these dialogue groups, what have you learned?Mary Webb:I've learned more patience. I've learned flexibility about certain things. You think things should go one way, but maybe they shouldn't because you want to meet the needs of the whole group. I've learned that you can't keep everyone happy "at all times" but you can keep the group growing and going and being wonderful and everybody's sense of humor is enormously important in this.Never think that you're not doing the work when you're laughing because that's one of the most important things to really understand the deep, deep, deep level. I learned this in teaching too. This is not about you meaning me. It's about the group. There are times when you have to sacrifice some of your own needs really quickly to get the group to be as powerful as you wanted. At the end of each dialogue, we stand and we hold hands.I feel very strongly about this, and people can meditate or do whatever they want to do. But at the very least, the energy is going from hand to hand to hand. We take that out when we leave.Ojig Yeretsian:Do you have any experience or any initiatives working with children in the schools?Mary Webb:Well, I'd love to do it. I'd love to start dialogues there, but somebody has to ask me to do it. I did run a daycare center. When I ran a daycare center with two, three and four year olds, I had the children vote for the rules of the school. Then, we posted them at the height of a two-year-old, and you take a little two-year-old named Sabrina Boo and you say, "Boo, what did you do wrong?" She says, "Running in the classroom."Then, I remind her that she voted for that rule, and I said, "You won't do it again, will you?" She says, "No." Two year olds are capable of voting for their own rules. These dialogues are perfect for elementary school, middle school and if you didn't get it before high school.When I said that I was studying the Holocaust when I was eight years old, that's the most important thing in a sense because it was always there with me. I was very independent at a very early age.Ojig Yeretsian:Was there a seminal moment that led you to your activism on the East Coast and was there a seminal moment that led you to your activism on the West Coast?Mary Webb:No, I mean this is the way I've always lived. When something comes up, if I think of something, I tend to start with my own ideas. The dance troupe was my idea as far as I know. I was in Berkeley dancing to something called Very Last Day. That was the song, and I was a dancer. I had some dance training. I saw African-American girls in black leotards and tights doing a dance to this.Now, did I really see them? No. I saw an image. If you use the word visionary and it doesn't get to, oh my God, a visionary kind of thing, I am a visionary because I see things like a picture of the dancers and I go, "Oh, I will do that." Then, white people in Berkeley tell me I can't possibly do it as I said before. Then, my vigor is a redoubled by people's projection. I have the kind of personality where if you say, "You can't do this," it's like in my head I'm going, "Just watch my fire."Ojig Yeretsian:You weren't afraid of failing. It was a risk taking you were very comfortable with. As an innovator, that kind of courage and fiery spirit, I think, is what we want to hear about.Mary Webb:There is a time to give up something that isn't working. That's part of it. Now, how do you get a fiery spirit? I don't say, "Try," and I don't say, "Despite the outcome." I say, "I'm going to do this." I have a living room. I know some people. With the dance troupe, I said, "They don't have an African-American dance troupe. I will start one." I got there. We were moving there from California, and I got there and they didn't have a dance troupe. I started one. I didn't know how to do it. I learn how to do it in the process.Ojig Yeretsian:Is that the same with the Living Room Dialogue?Mary Webb:Absolutely. It's what I do with everything. We'll figure it out. Not everybody has a seminal moment. I mean I know who I am very well and very deeply. I don't ever know what I'm going to do next. In fact, I have a website called Suck the Juice Out of Every Moment. It's about my experiences and my philosophy sort of.Ojig Yeretsian:Can you please tell us about your published works?Mary Webb:The first one I published, Dark Roads, R-O-A-D-S, under another name, Leah Ross because there was a Mary Webb already that people had heard of at that time, and I didn't want to go into competition. That was a novel about the south and some of my experiences in the south that has dance troupe in it.The second one, which we're bringing out in a second edition within the next six months is The God Hustlers, which is about religious cults and the nature of evil. The question I'm asking myself in that book is when all around the world there are terrible tyrants and they want to take away everybody's right and kill them and torture them if they're not willing to give them up, how is it that so many people are willing to give up their own rights and join something where someone else is going to run their lives? I'm not a big fan of religious cults as you might imagine.This took me five years. It was spurred in 1978 by what happened at Jonestown. If you turn over your paycheck and your personal rights to a group, there is no limit to what the leader of that group may ask you to do. Check out Alice Miller, the psychiatrist, her books, the ones that are really about the process that went on in various countries that allowed people to take over everything from other people.Ojig Yeretsian:Okay, awesome. Thank you, Mary.Mary Webb:Pleasure. I love it.Announcer:You've been listening to Method to The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll see you again in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Ali Nazar interviews Shawn Lani, Director for the Exploratorium's Studio for Public Spaces, on the Bay Area institution's founding story, outreach programs, and preparations for their 50th anniversary.Transcript:Ali Nazar:You're listening to KALX Berkeley in 90.7 FM and this is Method to the Madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex celebrating the innovative spirit of the Bay Area. I'm your host, Ali Nassar, and today I got with me Shawn Lani, he's the Director for the Studio for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium in San Francisco. Hey, Shawn, what's going on?Shawn Lani:Hey. Nothing. Just here, jabbing this morning.Ali Nazar:Yeah, thanks for jabbing.Shawn Lani:Yeah, my pleasure.Ali Nazar:Appreciate you coming in. So we're going to talk about a few things. Exploratorium, obviously, is a beloved institution in the Bay Area, but I always ask people when we first start out about organizations like the Exploratorium, they're very unique and they start out with a kind of a problem statement in mind. What is the problem statement that Exploratorium is trying to solve?Shawn Lani:That's a good question. A lot of people think of the Exploratorium as a science museum that was formed in the way that a lot of things were formed, but the culture institutions tend to be a product of their times. They're responding to a need, and at the time, there was an educational reform movement going on in America and the 60s were happening. This is 1969, it was founded and Frank had spent many years-Ali Nazar:Frank Oppenheimer?Shawn Lani:Oh, yes. Frank Oppenheimer had spent many years as a teacher on a ranch kind of perfecting a hands-on method of learning and was convinced that people really needed a place where they can get their hands on things and figure things out for themselves. One of the things he used to do is take his kids out to a junkyard and a very non-traditional approach, take things apart, find out how they work. It was definitely a sense of the authentic was always a driving force and also a trust that people were naturally curious and could be inspired to kind of explore their own inquiry. And that turned out to be a very powerful model for teaching and learning.Ali Nazar:Yeah, and I think any of us have been to the Exploratorium totally get that feeling because that's what the place is all about. But taking just one more kind of step down memory lane, can you tell us a little bit more about Frank Oppenheimer, who he was and how he came to found the museum?Shawn Lani:Yeah. Frank Oppenheimer was Robert Oppenheimer's younger brother, he's sometimes called the Uncle of the Atomic Bomb. He worked on the Manhattan Project, and for many years after that he was ostracized from universities and ended up in a ranch in Colorado. He was a natural teacher. He was very much a humanist, and so as he spent many years out there kind of basically, surviving, he ended up coming to San Francisco. He still had a lot of contacts, a lot of people knew who Frank was and started the San Francisco Project and found the Palace of Fine Arts. He wrote up a rationale for a science museum and ended up stomping around the City Hall drumming up support for it and got a 30-year lease for a dollar a year at the Palace of Fine Arts. Ali Nazar:Wow.Shawn Lani:Yeah. That's not a bad deal.Ali Nazar:Wow, yeah, pretty good. San Francisco real estate.Shawn Lani:Yeah, exactly. Well, the funny thing is even at the time when Frank walked in that behemoth of a building, he already thought, "This isn't going to be big enough," and, in fact, we added onto that building some years later, a second floor. And then eventually, we outgrew the building altogether and moved to Pier 17 just five years ago, Pier 15, sorry, in San Francisco.Ali Nazar:Well, Great. So thank you for that story and understanding kind of where it came from. So we're almost 50 years into the Exploratorium's founding. What's the journey been like? Where are we today?Shawn Lani:Well, the Exploratorium is, I think, necessarily evolving and I think this is true of any cultural institution. They need to evolve with culture in order to respond to it and be relevant. And as we started as a science museum with exhibits that quickly grew into a explainer program that integrated teens on the floor explaining and working with visitors. We started professional development of teachers very early. We were one of the first 600 websites when that started to evolve. And so the museum's always been kind of a slowly growing institution with new feature-sets and more and more of those have become interrelated over time.And so when I think about the Exploratorium, I went there as a child, three and four years old, you kind of fall in love with the place. And even all these years later, I walk through and there's something familiar about the way that we respect humans as learners. And in everything that we do, the way that we approach the work is very much in support of somebody's own sense of wonder and inquiry and to enable people to ask questions of the world and find those questions useful and even to question the answers they get back when they ping the world. We want them to know that they are active learners, they're in control of what they understand. And so that's always kind of been a thread throughout all of our work.Ali Nazar:Yeah, and it's so fascinating to me, as I'm listening to you talk, and think about many times in this show, we have people who have started an organization six months ago or eighteen months ago. They had this dream and this vision and I've been part of founding teams too and I think one of the things that a founding team dreams of is to have something be sustainable and go on for a long time and now, we're sitting with something like that in the Exploratorium. We're almost 50 years in. How does the governance work? How do you guys keep the mission vibrant and alive and even though Dr. Oppenheimer has long since gone?Shawn Lani:Yeah, he passed in 1985. He used to say that the Exploratorium was anarchy and Frank was the anarch and there was a certain kind of a glue that he could bring just through kind of force of personality and his intellect was somebody once said, "Walking through the Exploratorium was like walking through Frank's mind," but in fact the places evolved a lot since frank has passed. And I think that was also by design because just like we've always treated visitors as part of the equation, staff has always felt like it was part of their job to generate new ideas and to figure out new ways of engaging with audiences increasingly diverse and in new ways and on subject matters that are important to them. When I first got there in '93, we were doing some work with the National Science Foundation, which is a long-term supporter.But I was kind of surprised at the number of people doing things that I didn't think at all were related to the Exploratorium. And eventually, we had a Body Show, we had shows about memory, we looked at our Light and Color and Sound exhibitions, we renamed them Seeing and Hearing, thinking more about how people are not only sensing the world but perceiving it and the acts of perception is active. You're construing, you're making sense of the world as you find it. And so reframing the world is actually a really powerful tool for allowing people to see things in a new way, and then from that moment forward, carry that with them. It's not something that happens in the museum for that moment, which is static, it's dead when you leave. You might pick up some information, but that's just information. A way of seeing the world is far more influential I think.And actually, it's far more respectful because what we don't do is say, "This is the right way to look at the world." What we do say is, "Have you thought of it this way? Have you thought about how when you look out at the Bay, say it just all looks like a bunch of water," right? But the long story behind that is where it comes from, the push and pull of the saltwater and the ecologies that live there. And once you tell that narrative, for a lot of people, I think it builds an appreciation for a way of looking at the world that's more animated. It's more animated and it's actually, it's much more fun. It's much more interesting. And so I think that's the way that we've drifted over the years as we added more and more program is how do we do that more? How do we connect with people in such a way that they feel like they're a little different from after they've brushed up against us? And likewise, I think the museum needs to feel like, "Hey, we're being changed by our visitors as well because we're in conversation."Ali Nazar:Yeah. And it's so appropriate. I think for the spirit of the Bay Area because I always think of us being kind of like the furthest on the west of the Western civilization and kind of able to question everything. That's kind of where we're at and just geographically we're the most newest of all the cities to come. And so we can kind of look back and say, "Well, should we think about it this way? Should we be thinking about it that way?" And Exploratorium really embodies that kind of spirit.Shawn Lani:Yes. It's easy to take for granted, especially if you grew up here and I know you're raising some children and once you have kids you start to realize like, "Wow, we are in the middle of so many things." We watch movies, there we are. You hear stories or you see movements come out of the Bay Area that are global. And I've been lucky enough to travel a lot because of the Exploratorium. We have a lot of global influence from the Bay Area and the Exploratorium itself. We do global consulting, we do a lot of professional development. We train over a 1,000 teachers a year. We've trained over 30,000 teachers since the inception of the Teachers Institute. And that's the kind of influence that that continues on. So those 1,000 teachers teach 15,000 students, right? There're 30,000 teachers. Think about all the kids they've reached. And all we've done is given that teacher a new tool, a way of using inquiry and informal approaches to learning about the world, and then they take it and move that forward.So that's the kind of impact I think the Exploratorium, for me, in my mind, when I think of it, I don't think of it as a place as much as a kind of movement and I think it's continuing to be a kind of movement. We occupy space in people's minds sometimes because they went there as a kid or because they bring their kids or they ... But there's something about the place that just glows, and the more we can export that glow, the better. Right?Ali Nazar:Yeah. Bottle it up.Shawn Lani:Bottle it up. Yeah. But don't commercialize it. There's that beautiful blend of sharing. It's a kind of sharing.Ali Nazar:Yeah. And the amplification effect is so much what's so special about founders in my mind is someone has this idea in their brain and if they're successful, like Dr. Oppenheimer was, look at the amplification effect and how many lives he's touched just because he pursued that thought in his brain of, "Well, people should have experiential learning."Shawn Lani:That's right.Ali Nazar:And look what's happened since 50 years later.Shawn Lani:That's right.Ali Nazar:And it's really amazing. So we're talking to Shawn Lani, he's a Director for the Studio for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium in San Francisco right here on Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. Shawn, so let's talk a little bit about the Studio for Public Spaces. So there're lots of programs there, but before we get into that, I want to just get a little bit of your background. Tell us about yourself.Shawn Lani:Well, I grew up in the Bay Area primarily. I was born in San Leandro, lived in Oakland and so definitely a Bay Area person. I was lucky enough to spend a lot of time out on a ranch in eastern Nevada and was inspired by just the raw nature of that landscape. And, in fact, it brought a lot of that work into the Exploratorium and that way of seeing those landscapes. And I studied at Davis and really enjoyed English and art history. I studied a lot of things. And the funny thing was I wasn't a science guy. I was handy and I could fix things on the ranch, but mostly when I was supposed to be digging holes, I was staring at springs or watching birds and so it wasn't a great rancher either.So somehow I landed up, ended up at the Exploratorium. I got a Masters in Museum Education and Design at John F. Kennedy University. And I just never thought I could work in a place that wonderful. I didn't even think to apply and it popped up, but it seemed faded. I lived only three blocks away from it. I was just extremely lucky to find it and that place changes over time. We've gotten a lot bigger and its mission has shifted not unnecessarily. And I was able to slot into a place and then move through the museum and experience what the global impact is like, what it's like to work locally. And then in 2008, we opened a show at Fort Mason. It was an outdoor Exploratorium and rather than introducing phenomenon like we do in the museum, we capture it out there.We framed it and we looked at the landscape as kind of a subject matter and tried to do these conceptual framings that allowed people to see the world in a new way and was really hooked, really fascinated with the idea that you didn't have to go inside the museum to have a really poignant experience. And, in fact, I was struck by how different it was. I wouldn't say better, but having it be a part of your daily life seemed to make it much more accessible and far more interesting as a developer, as a designer because then it's like you're in the ultimate a flea market, right? Like, "What's that? How did that happen? What the?" All these questions come to mind and sometimes when you dig a little bit, you find the most amazing answers. We're curious, Pete Richards, a senior artist at the museum, he'd heard the Golden Gate Bridge moved up and down because of the heat.So we put a GPS tracker on it. We talked to Leica. We really did our research and it turns out, sure enough, it moves up and down a foot or two depending on the temperature of the day. And there's kind of a mean temperature in the middle. So we put a scope on the bridge from a mile and a half and actually, it's three miles away with a little line in the middle. And we called it a bridge thermometer if it was a hot day, the bridge would be low and it was a cold day, the bridge would be up. And it was just such a lovely kind of observation that Pete had brought along. And then we were doing evaluation later and a runner came by and she stopped and she looked at it and she took off and our evaluator chased her down and said, "Well, that's usually not a good sign if somebody just does a glancing blow."And she said, "No, I just like to see where the bridge is every day when I went by, I want to see what the bridge is doing." So it was such a wonderful thing to think of reframing that big static thing in the distance, not as kind of a thing that doesn't move, but a thing that's being responsive to temperature. When the sunrises, it takes a couple hours for the bridge to heat up and sag. So there's all these beautiful thermodynamics going on and it's that kind of animation that really caught our attention.Ali Nazar:That's super cool. I mean it reminds me of just in such a hyper-creative environment of almost in I would think like Saturday Night Live where you have all the writers around pitching ideas. There're like lots of ideas. How does it work? Because I would think that the staff there is super-creative and comes up with all sorts of interesting thoughts like that.Shawn Lani:Yeah.Ali Nazar:How does the process of getting something approved and funded go?Shawn Lani:Well, we prototype a lot and you might have an idea, but if you don't test your idea, nobody's going to believe you. And the ultimate test is how the public responds to it in the final form. And so one of the things we do, we utilize evaluation in a more formal way but also in an informal way. We tinker about, we try things. And that's true of most subject matters. Even as we move into the social sciences and thinking about stereotypes and thinking about how do you exhibitize some of those experiences? You don't really know until you go out and you try it with people. And the beautiful thing about that isn't that there again to prove or disprove what you thought was right they're most likely going to inspire you to do something that you wouldn't have otherwise thought of. That collaborative effort extends far beyond your immediate development team. I mean we might beat each other up about whether we think it's a good idea or not, but that kind of healthy criticism can only really be verified by the end-users.Ali Nazar:Sure, which is very much part of the spirit of San Francisco tech life. Lean startup and 20th-century design, hi-tech.Shawn Lani:Starting in '93 there was no tech, there was no ... I didn't have a computer on my desk. If you wanted something, you called the old guy that worked at the part shop and you told him what you needed, right. But the language started to come from tech eventually started to seep and some of it was familiar and some of it sounded kind of, I wouldn't say naive but there was the beginnings of that ... Because that kind of iterative culture, the prototyping culture takes a long time to get good at. Not 20 years, but a few years, and the lessons that tech learned sometimes it's in this much shorter cycle so they'll learn part of the lesson. But the full lesson really is, I think, it goes to the maturity of an organization and as a creative person and who's able to work with others and also listen, it's not an easy thing, but when you get it right, you understand why it works.Ali Nazar:Yeah. Well, so back to your story, so you joined in 1983. It sounds like you just lucked into the perfect job for you, which is congratulations.Shawn Lani:Yeah. Yeah.Ali Nazar:You've been there for a long time now, so that's awesome. So you're right now on this Studio for Public Spaces project. So tell us about that and how it came to be.Shawn Lani:Yeah. So as an exhibit developer, back then, you would develop exhibits for the floor for people have experiences they learn from those. It was something that you learned. It took about five or seven years I got my chops. And that project at Fort Mason was interesting because we had this kind of instrumented landscape, right? You can walk through and experience it, but what I think we missed, I found out later with subsequent projects, is that places have people in them and those people are part of that landscape. That social landscape is also the raw material of future experiences, future exhibits, you can instrument the landscape, but you can also help instrument people's behaviors and how they're moving through the world. And so after we opened Pier's 15, 17 we did the first living innovation zone on market street.And that was through the Mayor's Office of Innovation with Mayor Lee. And we worked with Neil Hrushowy over in city planning and Paul Chasan and others. And it was a remarkable experience because we put a pair of listening vessels, which are eight-foot-tall dishes done by Doug Hollis on Market Street. At the Yerba Buena Lane and nobody really knew what to expect, including us. But we had this notion that that inquiry's a natural kind of social lubricant and that there were lots of rules on Market Street. We know this, right? You don't look people in the eye, you don't talk to anybody, you don't put your bag down. It's like a human freeway. Right? So we put these listening vessel's kind of diagonal to that freeway and people really responded. I think they responded in a better way than I had even hoped.They were willing to talk to strangers. They were kind of joyous and celebratory. They would watch each other play and figure this thing out. They tried to find out where it was plugged in. So these dishes, you can whisper in these dishes and hear each other from 50 feet away very clearly. And it's also very intimate because it sounds like somebody's just in your ear because the way the sound is focused with the parabolic dishes. And so after that, the Studio for Public Spaces was founded with the goal of bringing more of these inquiry-like experiences to public spaces because the audience is vast. The impacts are amazing really in terms of how it shifts people's behavior in real-time, in real space in cities. And so since then, we've done many projects throughout the Bay Area, San Leandro. We're working on a project currently on Fulton Street between the Asian Art Museum and the library across from City Hall.And to bring this methodology work the way they explore terms work traditionally the prototyping, the integration, the respect for the learner to a public space. And I think especially with social sciences, understanding how we construe the world, what science can teach us about how we understand things and how and why we process the world. Exploring that in a public space, especially when it challenges you in Plaza and The Civic Center, it's improving. There're a lot of things going on there now, but there's also a lot of friction. It's right in the middle of it. I mean you had to put a pin in San Francisco and say, "Where's the middle of it?" It's right there. And it's a powerful medium to be in. And I'm exploring topics like how do we categorize it? Why do we so immediately categorize people? Why do we stereotype folks? What biases are driving ourselves? This is all a way of thinking about the human mind.What you know of the world is directly proportional to what you know of yourself. And to understand how we're thinking on a meta-level is incredibly empowering because it allows you not to be a victim of your own fast-twitch thinking. You can slow down and you can reconsider. You can look for the options when you look at a scene. Not only, "This is what I think about what's happening," but, "Why am I thinking that and what other alternatives might there be?" So it's been fascinating and I think also humbling to have such a dynamic mix of emotions, cultural issues, and then trying to do this place-making maneuver in the middle of a place that is kind of inherently inhospitable.Ali Nazar:We're speaking with Shawn Lani, he's the director for the Studio for Public Spaces at Exploratorium Museum in San Francisco here on Methods of the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm your host, Ali Nassar, and Shawn, so you're talking about different projects that you might be doing in different municipalities across the Bay Area. So take me through how does that work? I mean, this sport team can't just parachute in, "Hey, we're going to do this," right. "Get out of the way."Shawn Lani:That's the worst case, man. You never go where you're not invited. That's the rule.Ali Nazar:How do you guys build these projects?Shawn Lani:Yeah. They're very complex networks of partnerships. So that city is one level, but we also have formal relationships with the Gladstone Institute, NASA, the Smithsonian, UC Davis, UCSF. We've worked on the Resilience by Design design challenge with Tom Leader through the Bay Observatory. And so those networks have been forming over the last 50 years, literally. And I think the last 30 and even 20 years, we've really accelerated that partnership. There're strategic partnerships, meaning that we have partners where we benefit from each other's expertise. And we've always brought in a lot of Ocher Fellows, which is a program where we have visiting scientists who've had Nobel laureates, we've had Poet Laureates, right? We've had MacArthur Geniuses, four or five of those coming through the program in order to do enrich the work.And I think that's the natural mode for the museum now is to have many, many receptors. Because what we can do, I think, is make some of that really important work, especially when it comes to the environment, environmental issues. We can provide a platform for people to understand that the complex issues that are going on around them, and a way of sorting through the information and figuring out what they think is important and not telling them what's important. It's not that kind of advocacy. It's advocacy for the visitor to feel like they understand what's happening. So they could make a more informed decision, which is very much about one of the tenants of Frank's founding, the Exploratorium was we need an informed citizenry to have a healthy democracy. You can't have it without that.Ali Nazar:Now, more than ever.Shawn Lani:Now, more than ever. And I think the need continues to increase. It's never gone away. And the notion of learning is what the body of work that we learn about is a bunch of facts. That's not true. It's the cultural pursuit of what we collectively value and that shifts over time. So only through partnerships and only through this way of thinking can the Exploratorium remain relevant. So with our work in the Studio for Public Spaces, we're working with urban planning. We work with the mayor's office, we worked with REC and Park, we work for the Trust for Public Land. We work with other people that are invested in public spaces. So oftentimes there're community groups, groups like Green Streets over in Buchanan Mall, Citizen Film.They're smaller nonprofits, but they play an incredibly important role as guides in how to make this work. And guess what? Mayor Lee used to say for the first [inaudible], "We're going to make this a bureaucracy-free zone, so you guys going to come in and do ... So it turns out it was actually bureaucracy-light. There was still a lot of bureaucracy.Ali Nazar:Yeah, that was aspirational.Shawn Lani:Yeah, it was aspirational, but you got to reach and it got us in, right? It got us the gig. But to be able to go through those permitting processes with DPW or with MTA and have a good working relationship and even watching those departments bend a little when they're not totally sure it's going to be okay. I think it's really a hopeful sign. I mean there are so many good smart people working in city government. I know that sounds crazy, but I am shocked at how dedicated they are and how willing they are to bend a little and to help things that might not be known as this is going to be a total success. But the way we work is two-year pilot projects very often. It's worth the risk to find out does this help? Are we prototyping a way for the city to work in the future and what can we learn from this lesson? It's heartening to see how many people will support that kind of activity.Ali Nazar:Yeah, I think so much as to do with the vision. So we had Ben Davis on the program who was the thought leader behind the Bay Light Shore Bay Bridge. He had to get a few different municipality organizations together to make that happen. But the vision was so strong and everybody loved that bridge. So they were like, "Yes." Like, "I get it, we want to do it," and I think you guys have that power too because you have a vision that people, like you said, you feel it's not just about when you're at the museum, it's about the next day or that night.Shawn Lani:Right.Ali Nazar:I feel that with my kids when we take them there because we're members of the Exploratorium and they talk about it for a few days afterwards, "Remember that thing? Remember that thing?" And it's a vision that's so powerful that I think is galvanizing for people to get behind.Shawn Lani:Yeah. I always joke, "It's almost a cheat when you come into a situation that's in a public space." The Exploratorium comes and like, "Oh, you guys are here." Oh, he's always so happy to see you. Like, who's going to fight with Exploratorium? Like, "We don't fight. We just want to come here and have some fun and talk about things," and so it really is a leg up to build on that many years of goodwill and tradition and I think that's super important. When it comes to brand value, people don't want a brand the Exploratorium has always striven or strived, striven? Stroven?Ali Nazar:Strove? [inaudible].Shawn Lani:Thank you. To be authentic, it doesn't lie to people. I mean, I remember, this is how crazy we can get. If you have a box of wires, it's always a question whether or not you could make it out of plexi or you should make it out of wood because if you can't see it, you might not trust that it's not just going through or connecting up. So oftentimes we'll reveal the back of an exhibit just so people can kind of test it. And I wish government was like that actually, that radical transparency, right? "Is it doing this?" And like, "I don't know, try it out." I mean if you can't tell, that's not a good exhibit. Right?That's not a good experience if you're wondering, you're scratching your head and wondering if somebody just put one over on you. And so we have always tried to have that kind of relationship and that really pays off when we go for partnerships. They sense that we're not going to get between what it is that they think is important and what they're trying to show and what the visitors are going to take in. We're all about facilitating that understanding.Ali Nazar:Well, it's, it's super cool work that you're doing and thanks for coming in this morning. I do want to ask you just next year's the 50th anniversary?Shawn Lani:Yeah.Ali Nazar:So it's such an amazing institution that we're all proud of in the Bay Area. What can we expect for next year to happen at Pier 15 or across the Bay Area?Shawn Lani:Well, we'll be opening the Social-Psychology show in July of 2019 and so that is going to be 12 to 14 exhibits outside Public Space Installation and that's going to be paired with a show about identity at the Exploratorium. This is a really interesting move I think for the museum to move into the social sciences because they're not traditionally easy to approach. But I think they are incredibly relevant, given the time. And so those are going to be two peak ... Now, we also have a lot of ongoing programming about the environment and ecologies. So we have conversations about landscapes, we have Lab and Lunch.We just hosted the climate summit, several talks about the climate summit, so we're going to be continuing that work moving forward. And also our After Darks, are every Thursday nights and those are heavily programmed. So we're kind of like a piece of broccoli in that way. You have the broccoli sprout but then you have a lot of other little things going on and then you have a lot of other things going on. But those are some of the big lobes but there's lots of other stuff going on as well.Ali Nazar:Okay, I'm sure everybody knows how to get ahold of the Exploratorium, so how about for the Director, for the Studio for Public Spaces? If people want to learn more about that, how would they learn more about it?Shawn Lani:Well, just type in Studio for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium, and you'll see the website that has a list of our projects and also a lot of the thinking and the framing of the work. We have some publications there as well, and an ongoing blog.Ali Nazar:Okay, well, great. Well, we've been talking to Shawn Lani this morning, the Director for the City for Public Spaces at the Exploratorium in San Francisco. Shawn, thanks for coming in.Shawn Lani:Oh, my pleasure. Thanks so much.Ali Nazar:And you've been listening to Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, University of California, a listener-supported radio. I'm your host, Ali Nazar. Thanks for listening everybody and have a great Friday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Tiny Farms CEO and co-founder Andrew Brentano thinks cricket protein will ensure future food security. Tiny Farms is an AgTech and Precision Farming company that produces food grade cricket protein for use in pet food and animal feed applications offering a sustainable, safe, reliable protein source for pets, livestock animals, and people.Transcript:Lisa:This is Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. Today, I'm speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of tiny farms. Welcome to the program, Andrew.Andrew:Oh, thank you.Lisa:You are the perfect guest for a show about innovation. Co-Founder of Tiny Farms. First of all, tell us what Tiny Farms does, and what is the problem you're trying to solve.Andrew:We are basically, precision ag company. What we're doing, is we're trying to grow a whole lot of crickets. The big problem we're addressing is that we basically cannot produce enough animal protein to keep up with the demand. We've got growing population, growing per capita consumption and also a really huge growing pet food market, which is consuming a huge amount of meat. Traditional meat consumption, your livestock, your pigs, your chickens and your cows, is a hugely resource-intensive endeavor.You're concentrating huge amounts of feed, 25 30% of all the crop lands on earth are just growing feed for animals. Then we're also grazing about 25% of the earth's surface for cattle. There's really not any room to expand. We really have to find these higher efficiency ways to supply that animal protein that people need.Lisa:You have found, what I think is a pretty unique niche in this market of cricket farming, protein farming. I know the argument about cattle using energy and all of that, but what you're saying is that dogs, chickens, all of these other animals. If we can feed those animals your product, we can make equivalent savings, maybe?Andrew:Yeah. We can offset these huge resource environmental footprints. If we take the pet food example, in the US, we're feeding about 30 billion pounds or more of meat just to dogs and cats every year. That market is growing like 6% year over year. If we can, instead produce crickets, which use just a tiny fraction of the food and the water and the space required, we can essentially get more from less. We can meet this demand without just completely overextending our current resources.Lisa:Okay. When did you start this company?Andrew:We started in late 2012. We initially got the idea ... of course it took a while for markets to actually developed. We were a little bit ahead of the curve. We've been-Lisa:Do you mind if I ask how you came to this? Were you doing market analysis studies or looking at big data? How did you figure out that this was a niche?Andrew :In that moment, what we were doing was really just thinking about big existential problems. We were trying to decide what should we be spending our time and energy on and had really started drilling into food production. Everyone's got to eat. It's the largest and most resource-intensive endeavor that humans do on this planet and also one of the most immediately going to be effected by climate change, population growth, et cetera. What we realized when we were diving in was that meat production was this huge concentration of where all the resources were going, It was the most inefficient place and also the highest demand. Everyone wants to eat meat. We thought, wow, this is-Lisa:Yes. Especially with incomes going up.Andrew:Exactly.Lisa:First thing they want to do is have the steak that you and I have.Andrew :Exactly.Lisa:Right?Andrew:This westernization of diets around the globe, all these trends were pointing to essentially meat crunch in really the relatively near future. People need this protein, but how do we produce protein more efficiently but that still has a high-quality nutritional profile? We're looking at agriculture. We were looking at algae and fungus. Then we came across a body of research about insects and their nutritional values and their production efficiencies, historical uses around the world, and it just made so much sense.Lisa:Who's using crickets? I assume some of these countries have been using crickets for thousands of years, is that correct?Andrew:Yeah. Particularly in Oaxaca, in Mexico and some other Central American cultures. There are long traditions of eating crickets and grasshoppers, both interchangeably. A number of African cultures also like different types of crickets that are native, crickets and katydids. Then in Thailand, more recently, I think there's been a long tradition of eating different insects. Very recently, there's been quite a growth in, particularly the cricket market there. The Thai government has even, for the last 10, 20 years been sponsoring and promoting this. There's now tens of thousands of small backyard cricket farms supporting those largely street markets.Lisa:How did you start? Were you right out of college, or what was your motivation here?Andrew:I guess, I was about two and a half years out of college. I went to University of British Columbia, studied absolutely unrelated to agriculture, a program called cognitive systems. It was AI information systems, linguistics. What that did instill was this mindset of systems thinking. I'd worked an AI startup. My Co-Founder Jenna, who's now is my wife, had been working for an artist. She went to Rhode Island School of Design. She was managing an artist business in LA. We'd been living in LA for a couple of years and decided this wasn't fulfilling. This wasn't really where we wanted to be or what we wanted to be doing.That was where we took a summer, went and started doing freelance web development just to pay the bills and took this time to decide what are we going to do with our lives that's can be meaningful. That's what led us into this. It was important that, you we found something that we could do that would apply our creativity and actually be meaningful. HLisa:You know how we're all about organic and sustainable. How does that fit into the cricket industry? What do they eat? How do you follow the path to make sure they're sustainable and that they're organic?Andrew:Yeah. The great thing about crickets is they'll eat anything, pretty much. I mean, they're basically omnivorous. Anything you could feed a pig, or a chicken, or a cow, or basically any other kind of animal, they can eat. They really have a very high, what's called feed conversion ratio, which is basically the amount of food they have to eat to grow a certain weight as a ratio. With crickets, it's about 1.7:2 pounds of food to get 1 pound of cricket. To give comparison, chickens are more like 3:1. Pigs are between 4 and 6:1. Cows can range from 8:20:1, depending on what the diets are. Even if you fed them the exact same thing you fed a commercial chicken, you're using much less of that feed.You've got this corresponding, way much smaller land and water footprint. Then because they are so efficient converting that feed and they'll eat anything, we can then take food by-product streams and agricultural by-product streams and incorporate that into the feed formula. That can range anything from stale bread, which commercial bakeries, large scale ones are producing millions of pounds of stale bread or excess bread. They essentially overproduce by about two what they actually sell. Then we can also go to agricultural processing. There are huge streams of by-products, like dried distiller grains that come out of ethanol production, spent brewer's grain, juice pulp from the citrus industry.Lisa:The wine industry.Andrew:The wine industry. Exactly. Almond holes are huge one in the United States, or in California alone, we're producing 150 million tons of almond holes every year.Lisa:They're kind of like goats in the insect world.Andrew:Yeah.Lisa:They'll clean everything up.Andrew:Right. All we have to do is balance the different inputs, so we get the nutritional profile that grows the cricket efficiently We understand that pretty well. We can basically say, okay, we'll take 20% of this, 30% of that, 50% of that, blended altogether, and then we can just grow our crickets.Lisa:You been able to notice differences in tastes of your crickets by what you're feeding them?Andrew:One of the reasons crickets are so good, is they have a pretty mild and generally pleasant taste regardless what you feed them. You definitely can tell different things. You'll get either a nuttier cricket. Sometimes it'll be because the cricket is a little fatty or a little leaner.Lisa:What would you feed it to make it fatty?Andrew:You could feed it, for one, more fat or a higher carb diet. You can make it leaner by having more of a protein and fiber formulation. We've fed them carrots in the past and they turn just a tiny hue, more orange. They actually pick up a tiny bit of that sweeter carrot taste.Lisa:Do you ever feed them chocolate?Andrew :We've never fed them chocolate. It's a bit expensive.Lisa:How do your vegetarian or vegan customers feel about this product? Do they have any concerns?Andrew:There's two camps. There's one camp where folks are vegetarian and vegan primarily because of sustainability issues, humane treatment of animals, ethical issues. Those are exactly the issues that we're targeting and trying to address with cricket production. Those folks are generally very, very receptive to incorporating insect protein into their own diets. What's really exciting for these people is when we say, yeah, did you know there's dog and cat food you can get with insect protein? You've got vegetarians and vegans, but they still have a pet cat that they have to feed meat too.It creates a real dissonance for them. It's an amazing solution for those folks. Then there's folks that maybe have a religious or spiritual aversion to actually eating living animals. For those folks, that's fine. That's a different set of issues. Insects are living things, and if they decide that's not what they want to eat, it's not the product for them. We generally think that we have a great solution for the folks that really see the fundamental environmental and ethical issues around meat production.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, we're speaking with Andrew Brentano, the Co-Founder and CEO of Tiny Farms. Tiny Farms is building the infrastructure for a new category of our food system, cricket protein, one that will play a big part in ensuring future food security. Talking about your products, and you just covered one, which is feeding pets. What other products do you have, and who are your customers?Andrew:Our core business is the design and development of a high-efficiency cricket production facility. That's really the big problem. We want to get crickets out into the market, but how do you do that? How do you produce enough crickets cheap enough that it can actually become this bulk commodity that could reasonably offset traditional meats. In a way, our core product is actually this method for producing them and then also how do you process them into palatable ingredient.Lisa:I read that your method was unique in that it avoids the monoculture of most agriculture.Andrew:Yeah. One of the fundamental problems that we see in traditional livestock production, farming in general, is that you have these huge centralized productions, whether it's, say 10 thousand acres of soy beans or if it's a mile-long chicken house with 4 million chickens in it. When you think about ecosystems and biology, that's a really unhealthy ecosystem. Also, it's incredibly risky because if something comes in there that's a blight, or past, or a disease [ 00:10:48], it just can, wipe out everything very quickly.The approach that we take is a more distributed model where we'll set up smaller production units, and then we'll put them around in a cluster, in a region. That way, you never have this just huge, enormous centralized population issues of just having a lot of animals in place, breathing and pooping and eating and all of that mess and the potential for pollution. Also, that you significantly reduce this biological risk.Lisa:Crickets get disease and die out like other ...Andrew:We've been lucky. We've never had a blight. We have a very tightly controlled environment, keep the biosecurity levels pretty high. There have been, in actually a different species of cricket than when we grow, there is a disease. It only affects crickets. There's no risk to any people or animals but that have gone around and wiped out some of the cricket farms that have existed in the US. One of the cool things about insects, again, too, is that biologically they're so different from people that you don't have the same zoonotic transfer of diseases the way that you've got your swine flu or your bird flu, which can jump to humans. It's this huge health risk.Every animal has diseases and parasites that can affect them. The cricket is so different. Its life cycle's so different. They don't carry that kind of disease that could jump to a human. It's much safer. Even with a mosquito or a tick, they're transmitting a disease, because they're actually holding some like human blood, Mammalian blood in them. It's not that that animal itself actually gets a disease that can transfer to a human.Lisa:You have a cricket powder, but that's primarily for feeding animals. Does it also go into human-Andrew:We produce this cricket protein powder. It's completely food grade. It's completely perfect to use in human food products or pet food products. We focus on the pet food market, because we see a really, really big opportunity to offset a lot more of the consumption in that space. There are a ton of human food products out on the market, and a bunch of being produced right here in the Bay Area. Chips and snack foods and energy bars and baking flour mixes and stuff that-Lisa:With cricket powder.Andrew:With cricket flour. Yeah. Exactly. In that market, it's awesome. It's a really great way to start introducing to people this idea that they can eat crickets. Long-term, the best possible thing is we stop eating animals as much and we eat much more insect protein. Put it in something that people want to eat anyways, crunchy, healthy snacks.To really have the big impact we want to have, we have to figure out how we can start really replacing the meat that we're using as quickly as possible and as big of volume as possible. That's where we're really focusing on the pet angle. There's actually another company here in Berkeley called Jiminy's. They've released a line of dog treats. The only animal protein in that dog treat is cricket protein. Dogs love this stuff.Lisa:You don't have any retail human products yourself as a company.Andrew:We do supply another brand that is currently distributed at the Oakland Days Coliseum and it's called Oaktown Crickets. In the cricket production, get more into how that works. You harvest most of the crickets at a certain stage in their life when they've got the optimal protein content to make into the protein powder. Then you maintain a chunk of your population to go through adulthood and breed your next generation. Those breeders, we call them, they've got a higher fat content because they're, particular the females, are full of eggs. They're really, really tasty.In Thailand, those are the prized ones that people want. They'll fry them up and sell them in the market. For the protein powder application, they're not very useful. What we do is, those get sold for culinary use. We had local chefs use them in different specials, and then they're being fried and seasoned and packaged in little snack packs and distributed at the Colosseum. [crosstalk] Extra tasty.Lisa:One of your main goals is to address the challenges that are facing agriculture, what we just talked about. Are there any other challenges that you've experienced as you enter this marketplace?Andrew:One of the big fundamental things about how the agricultural system is set up is it's very linear. You extract resources, you dig up phosphorous, you create nitrates and nitrites for fertilizers. You pour them on the fields, you grow these plants, you harvest them out, you process them. You throw away the byproducts. Then you feed the animals, and the animals create a huge amount of poop. You don't know what to do with that. It just sits there. Then the animals get eaten. It's this very just linear extractive system of production.That's part of why we're having so many issues with soil degradation and waterway pollution. We're also just running out of phosphorus, which is its whole own problem. What we really see is an opportunity for insects is to help start close some of these loops and create more of a circular system. If you've got your wheat industry and it creates all of this chaff when you process the wheat into flour ... well if you can efficiently convert that, instead of just say composting it or throwing it out there or using it more inefficiently to feed dairy cow, you can turn that into a really high-quality protein, putting that through the base of the cricket as a bio converter.We've spent the same amount of nutrients and water to produce all parts of that plant. If you only eat a little bit of it, that's not very helpful. Then the cool thing about the crickets is, the waste they produce is completely dry and stable. They're not releasing-Lisa:The cricket poop.Andrew:The cricket poop.Lisa:What is it called?Andrew:It's called frass. That's the technical term for insect poops. It's basically the consistency of sand. If you go by Harris ranch or the big feed lots, and they're just-Lisa:Hold your nose.Andrew:Exactly. Producing huge amounts of nitrous oxide and methane and ammonia. These are greenhouse gas emissions that are many, many times more potent than CO2. Instead, you've got this very, stable, safe product that can be applied directly as soil. It's actually produced dry. You can cost effectively transport it. You-Lisa:And amend your soil with it.Andrew:Exactly. Yeah. You can take it back to the source of production, or you can put out into gardens, community gardens, home gardens, anywhere. The frass, which is our by-product, we've just recently gone through the approval process with the California Department of Agriculture to sell that as a retail fertilizer. We now have one pound and five pound bags of that.Lisa:Where could I find that?Andrew:We've just listed on Amazon, and we're starting to starting in the Berkeley area. We're getting it out to some of the local gardens stores. We're hoping that we'll have a chance to really take on a life of its own. Besides that, we're also able to sell that wholesale to bigger garden and farming operations in the area.Lisa:How did you find the funding to start all these operations?Andrew:Definitely, financing is the least fun and hardest part of starting a business. We were able to bootstrap the first several years. We were just actually building websites on the side while the initial pieces came together. Then when we realized that we really understood what the business model was going to be and what the growth plan was, we were able to go out and convince a handful of angel investors to come in and put enough money that we were able to launch our first R&D farm down in San Leandro.That was really just a process of getting out there, both going to pitch events, networking, going to basically the places where the kind of people are who care about sustainability and the food system, who understood the issues. Actually, a number of our investors found us, which was great. We had enough of a presence on social media and had been featured at a few events that they said, "Hey, I really believe in what you're doing." They understood why, and they knew it was going to be a long road to get there.They were very supportive. Then, from there, once you've got initial traction, then as you need more funding, you go out, find ways of getting in front of the right people and being able to tell that story and show how the payoff is going to happen down the road.Lisa:Everybody's pretty aware. It's a huge problem.Andrew:It's amazing how the awareness and focus changed from 2012 to now, because when we started and we're going out there saying, hey, insect protein is this amazing solution. People just raised eyebrows. Now, we go out there and people say, "Yeah, we know, but how are you going to implement it?" Which is much better conversation, because we actually get right into the meat of what we're doing and how we're solving the problem. We don't have to worry about spending half an hour just convincing someone that they should even take us seriously.Lisa:Who are your major competitors?Andrew:The industry is so new, The demand for the product keeps growing at a rate that, essentially, we're not able to directly compete, because we're all just trying to keep up with the scaling of demand. There's a farm down in Austin, Texas, which has gotten some great funding and done some cool stuff, building their operation. There's a big operation up in Ontario, Canada that's been one of the major suppliers in North America.Lisa:Internationally?Andrew:They're a good number of companies in Thailand and Southeast Asia, starting to be a little more presence in Mexico. When we think about it, for us to saturate this market, they're going to have to be thousands of cricket farms, right? We have this concept of a benign competition. When they have a win, that's good for us, because we're growing this opportunity together. It's much less cut throat than you find in more matured and saturated markets.Lisa:There's room to grow in it. Yeah. For sure.Andrew:Huge, huge opportunity.Lisa:Have you had any negative response?Andrew:Certainly. Particularly early on, you got a lot of ew, yuck. What are you doing? What's great about people, is that we really quickly get used to ideas. The same folks we would talk to six years ago and say, "Hey, we think you should try eating crickets." They'd say basically, "No way in hell would I do that." My test is based. I'm sitting on an airplane and the person next to me says, "Hey, what do you do?" How does that conversation go? Six years ago, went one way. Now, Lyft drivers or just folks out of the coffee shop I say, "Hey, we do cricket protein." Almost immediately, people now start telling me why it's a good idea. I mean, it's amazing how the public perception has shifted. I think it's really just a consequence of exposure.Lisa:If you can find a tasty way to get protein and not have to pay what you pay for meat ...Andrew:The market's so young. It's still a pretty premium product. The price point is similar to that of an equivalent meat product. So like the cricket protein powder is basically a dried ... It's 60% protein, 20% fat. It's this really nutrient dense product. It costs similarly as if you bought meat and dehydrated it. What that would cost, 15 to $20 a pound, which seems like a lot. Then you think you're reducing that down. You can get your fresh crickets. The costs of production is similar to your higher-end meat now. What's great is that's with really barely any R&D that's been done over the last few years.Lisa:Barely anybody in the marketplace.Andrew:Barely anyone in the marketplace. You think about what the price of chicken and beef is right now. That's the result of 50 years and trillions of dollars. Our industry, with five years and a few million dollars of development, is already getting competitive with meat. In the next few years, it's just going to soar below that, which is great. Up until very recently, there'd never been really any indication of actual opposition to the idea. It was just niche enough. No one was really worried about it. We did interestingly have the first high-profile shot across the bow.What happened was, late in July when the Senate was starting to go through their appropriations bill process, Senator Jeff Flake actually introduced a amendment that would specifically ban federal funding for research projects around insects for food use. This really caught us all off guard, what seemed to come out of absolutely nowhere.It was very strange and essentially someone had brought to the senator's attention that a handful of small innovation grants had gone out from the USDA to companies that were developing food products with insect protein. It's not the kind of thing that someone like Jeff Flake would just pick up. Someone out there suddenly cared enough to bring that to his attention. We don't really know exactly what went on there.Lisa:You don't know what went on.Andrew:Not yet. Yeah. We have an industry group. There's over 90 companies in the United States, Almost every state, there are companies working with insect protein, whether it's for pet food or animal feed or for human food, both on the production side and the product side. This is actually an amazing opportunity for American economic growth, American leadership. It's very surprising that something would come along like this that you would want to block federal research funding. Specifically, it's the small business innovation research grants that were being referenced. We've received some of the same grants as well.Lisa:Was that this year?Andrew:This was just a few months ago. Now, very luckily, that amendment was not accepted into the final version of the appropriations bill. We realize like, oh, there are people that care enough to start throwing up some roadblocks. That's actually a good sign for us that we're being taken seriously in that way.Lisa:That's a positive way to look at it.Andrew:For us, anytime that we have a conversation with someone and I convinced someone that they should take this seriously or they should go to A's game and buy a pack of crickets or they should go to the pet store and get some Jiminy's treats that they can feed their dog. That's a huge win for me.Lisa:Yeah.Andrew:Every time I'd ride in a Lyft or sit on an airplane, that's an opportunity. Yeah. I mean, there's already been this level of engagement, which is great.Lisa:I wanted to ask you about other projects. One of them I'm intrigued with is the Open Bug Farm.Andrew:In a earlier stage of our business development, we actually developed an open source mealworm farming kit, basically for people at home who are interested in this. The could either buy the kit from us or the designs were online. It was all off-the-shelf components, so they can make it themselves.Lisa:Like having chickens in your backyard.Andrew:That was the same kind of idea.Lisa:Instead, it's crickets.Andrew :Exactly how we were modeling it. In fact, a lot of the people who were interested in that, wanted to grow the mealworms to feed their chickens. That project didn't end up being really good business model for us. We didn't keep selling the kits, but we kept the designs for it out there. What was really great was around that project, we just launched a forum and a huge number of people came to that forum and asked questions and provided expertise. We were able to share some of our expertise on the topic.Now, there's this huge information resource that just has tons and tons of discussion about raising different kinds of insects at different scales, from commercial to home scale. We're really happy that exists out there. We get a lot of inquiries from people that say, "Hey, I just want to start growing some crickets for myself or some meal worms" or whatever it is. We don't have time to help every one of those people individually. We're able to say, "Hey, go over to the forum here, because there's just this huge drove information."Lisa:What do you see in the future?Andrew:Looking at the future, there's just so much room for growth. For us, the key thing is just get more commercial cricket farms built over the next years. Get the production ramped up, instead of just being able to have niche premium pet treats on the market. There can be full-diet pet foods and then maybe even your mainstream pet foods. If the Walmart brand of dog food could have even 5% cricket protein instead of meat, we'd be saving millions and millions of pounds of meat, hundreds of millions of gallons of water. It's all just about being able to grow the production volume to be able to meet those demands.For us, the path to doing that is not just building cricket farms ourselves but to be able to take the facility that we've designed and package that into a turnkey product that we could then license out to a production partner. Because we got a lot of inbound inquiry from folks that say, "Hey, I would love to start a cricket farm, but I don't really know how." There's great opportunity to leverage that and provide a ready-made solution where you can say, "Well, here's the setup and here's the training. We can provide the technical support." Then you can grow these crickets, and then we can help you process that into the protein powder that we can get out to the market."That's really the longer term growth strategy, is being able to engage with all these partners. Over the last several years, we've had hundreds and hundreds of people contact us, say, "I'm a dairy farmer, but I want to get into crickets." A lot of folks with agricultural backgrounds, maybe they grew up on a farm, but their parent's farm isn't quite big enough to support them coming back to work on the farm. They say, "Hey, maybe I could throw up an outbuilding and we could have a cricket farm there."There's a huge amount of opportunity for people that essentially have cricket production as their own business and be able to feed into the supply chain where we can have this huge impact offsetting meat. Fundamentally, what we are after is really converting, like I mentioned, this linear extractive food production system into a circular sustainable food production system. Right now, we're just so overextended on our demands, on the very limited resources that we have available in terms of water and soil and arable lands and even just nutrients available to grow crops.We're going to stop being able to produce food. When we talk to folks in the chicken industry or the beef industry, they're actually all very interested in the potential for the insect protein in the feed for their animals. Because all these animals are not just eating plant-based proteins. Almost all the animal feeds out there also have some amount of fishmeal in them, which supplements key amino acids and fats that you don't find produced in plants. Fishmeal production is a really shocking industry. We basically send out ships that scoop up indiscriminately, all the small fish. Particularly, they'll go scoop up whole schools of anchovetas and anchovies. Then they just grind that up into a powder and send it off into the animal feed formulations.Essentially, all that farmed salmon is basically eating wild fish that's been caught and ground up and pelletized and then fed back to that salmon. Something like 90% of fisheries are on the verge of collapse or have already collapsed. There's a huge amount of interest in introducing insect proteins into animal feeds. The FDA and AAFCO, which is the organization that controls what can go into animal feeds, have already approved soldier fly proteins, which is another insect that's being widely grown for use in salmon feeds. Now, the FDA has also just indicated that they think that should also be allowed in poultry feed. Poultry feed is one of the biggest consumers of fishmeal in the land-based agriculture.Lisa:Do you have a website that people can go to?Andrew:Our company is Tiny Farms. The website is just www.tiny-farms.com. Yeah. You can check out our basic offering. You can contact us through the contact form.Lisa:Are you selling tiny farm hats, like you have on? [crosstalk]Andrew:We've printed short-runs of shirts and had these hats made just for the team. There's enough interest that I think we'll get those listed up there soon. We just have to start thinking about the food system, in terms of a self-sustaining system and not like feel good sustainability. This has to be a system that can continue to produce food forever.Lisa:There are a lot of us living here, and we'll need every tool we can use if we want to keep enjoying it.Andrew:Yeah. Exactly.Lisa:Thank you, Andrew, for being on program.Andrew:Thank you. This was fun.Lisa:You've been listening to Method To The Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. 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Eric Leenson, Co-Director of the Business Alliance for a Heathy California, speaks to host Lisa Kiefer about the status of Single Payer Health in California and how a simpler, publicly funded system would deliver real reform.Transcript:Lisa Kiefer:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm speaking with Eric Leenson, the co-director of Business Alliance for a Healthy California. They believe that healthcare is a human right, and that all Californians should have affordable, high quality, cost-effective healthcare.Eric Leenson:Hello. Thanks for having me, Lisa.Lisa Kiefer:You have always been a person I think of around sustainability, and in this new venture, you're working to make healthcare more sustainable as we move to the future, all of us citizens of the US. Tell us about what you're doing at the business alliance for Healthy California.Eric Leenson:Essentially, we created the Business alliance for a Healthy California about a year and a half ago, to support the implementation of a single-payer type system here in California. You know, we can get into discussion about what single payer means, but it was kind of a response to what's been happening in Washington, where we see all kinds of major roadblocks, as far as protecting people's healthcare and in not even talking about expanding it. So here in California, we have a very strong group of people who have been pursuing single payer healthcare for a long time.And back in 2017, the California Nurses Association sponsored a bill called the Healthy California Act, Senate Bill 562, which would bring a single payer healthcare to the state of California, because we just don't see it in the cards on a national level for long time. But here we are in California, as everyone likes to say, the fifth largest economy in the world. We should be able to provide quality healthcare to all of our people.Lisa Kiefer:But, as we all know, this SB 562 is dead in the water right now.Eric Leenson:Right now, it's dead. Basically-Lisa Kiefer:So tell us what happened, and what's going to happen.Eric Leenson:Okay. The bill garnered really amazing grassroots support and it passed the Senate, so it was approved by the California State Senate. In the assembly, it was blocked primarily by the Speaker of the Assembly, who did not want it to come to a vote.And he didn't want it to come to a vote, in my opinion, primarily because it's embarrassing to the Democrats. There's no Democrat these days in California, that's not "for single payer," but you know, we have people that really support it and are ready to implement it, and others who say they support it, because politically it's convenient.Part of of where the Democrats are going, certainly in California, but also nationally, is in the concept of a Medicare For All-type program. So what you have is a situation where, on the legislative floor, if the bill had been brought up, then the Assembly people would've had to take a vote and show whether they supported this for real or not. And it was much easier just to sort of stall on it.It wouldn't, he didn't allow it to go to committee. Even for further review and discussion, they were claiming, "Well, the bill's inadequate," and there's no doubt there was more that needed to be flushed out in the bill, but that's part of what the Assembly's supposed to do through their committees, and they wouldn't even allow it to go to committee.At this point, there is no bill. What's happened is, I think everyone's got their attention really focused on the elections coming up in November, particularly the Governor's race.Lisa Kiefer:Right. I want to talk to you about John Cox, the Republican candidate, versus Gavin Newsom's position on single payer.Eric Leenson:Well, it's pretty much black and white-Lisa Kiefer:Yeah.Eric Leenson:In many ways, although there's always gray with, when you talk about politicians, the black and white part is that John Cox is absolutely opposed to any form of single-payer.Lisa Kiefer:Is he fiscally opposed? I read that there's a range of, from $330 to $400 billion is what people are saying it's going to cost Californians.Eric Leenson:Well, so what I would say is that as a Republican, he's opposed to it not only financially, but ideologically. He does not believe that government should play an extensive role in healthcare. So these would be the same Republicans that want to cut Medicare, because it's government-controlled, in a way.Finance, I should say, not controlled. Gavin Newsom has been a strong proponent of single payer, and in fact has a history of introducing healthcare reform when he was mayor of San Francisco. So he has been an outspoken proponent of single payer, and that's the black part.The gray part is, well, when you actually get elected, what do you do? Because health care represents 20% of the entire economy of California, and nationwide, as well. You're not talking about a small budget item, you're talking about an industry, whether it be pharmaceuticals, hospitals, physicians, insurance companies, that affects a huge swath of people.And when this gets out, you know, it gets discussed. It affects people's interest dramatically. I mean, basically ,if single payer were to be implemented, there would be no role, not much of any role, I should say, for private health insurance any longer. Can you imagine how many people would possibly lose revenue, because they sell insurance, or the insurance companies are making a lot of money.So, you have the problem, whenever you're dealing with trying to make major reform to the healthcare system. And it's extraordinarily complicated. I don't mean by any stretch of imagination to try to simplify it. You're going to have huge vested interests. Everyone uses healthcare, so everyone's concerned about what their healthcare is going to look like as a consumer. And you have, as I'm suggesting, a tremendous number of industries and businesses that basically survive on the revenues that are generated through healthcare.So it makes it difficult, and it makes it difficult for an elected official to really implement. They're going to need strong support from backers in the legislature, and insistence by the general public that this is beneficial.Lisa Kiefer:So I was thinking about this, a great percentage of money will be saved. It seems like if inefficiencies will be gone, so you're going to save a lot of money, but all of those people who deal with the phone calls to the insurance company are without a job. So whoever has to figure out this fiscal analysis has to incorporate job loss to the state. Very complicated.Eric Leenson:It's very complicated.Lisa Kiefer:And do you know if that cost-benefit works?Eric Leenson:Well, let's put it this way. Virtually every study that's been done, that I'm aware of, shows enormous cost savings through single payer. If you look at the numbers right now, the administrative costs of private health insurance are around, between, let's say 10% or 15% administrative costs. For Medicare, which is, in fact, single payer-Lisa Kiefer:Single payer, yeah.Eric Leenson:The administrative costs are 3%, so you're talking off the bat, you know, 10-12% savings. Just by streamlining that system, number one, and part of that administrative savings isn't only on the insurance side of it, you know, who's financing. It's also on the doctor side.You realize that in this country, every doctor has to hire me. I mean, every two doctors have to hire at least one or two administrative people, just to deal with the billing. I mean, we all have the experience of going to the office, and, "Are you covered by this, are you..."They spend endless amounts of time, instead of giving healthcare, on the phone, arguing with the insurance companies, whether or not there's coverage. This simplifies that entire thing.Number two, the other large savings is that if there were a single payer, they would be able to negotiate pricing, with hospitals and with pharmaceutical companies, because right now we pay so much more in the United States for healthcare than any other country industrialized country in the world. It's kind of ridiculous. I mean, we're spending, often, more than two times as much as any other country and not getting results that are even as good as those countries. It's all about the cost.Lisa Kiefer:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Eric Leenson. He's the co-director of Business Alliance for a Healthy California. He's working to educate and organize the business community to support universal health care.Eric Leenson:Back to your question, there have been studies done, and serious academic studies. You can imagine, this debate's been going on for decades, and in the case of California, let's just hone in on California.Yes, the cost of cost of healthcare in the system right now, everyone kind of agrees on, is about $400 billion a year. And the opposition, the single payer has done a great job in propagandizing the role of who's paying for what? So they come out with this phenomenal number of increase in taxes.Well, let's walk through the numbers. So let's say it's $400 billion right now. That's $400 billion being spent, where you still have 3 million people in the state that don't have insurance, and you have 14 million people in the state who are underinsured. Under insured means they "have coverage," but the deductibles and the copays are so high, they can't afford to use their insurance. So they don't go for the help they need.Lisa Kiefer:It's just catastrophic, at that point.Eric Leenson:Yeah. Yeah. Well, it often gets a catastrophic, because they're not going on a preventative basis. But what people don't understand is, right now, of that $400 billion, 70% is already being paid by government, 70%, if you add in, you know what the federal government is paying through Medicare, through Medicaid, which is huge, especially in the state of California.What local governments spend, think about it, all the government employees there are in the state. All the firemen, all the policemen, all the teachers, they have health insurance, right? So you're talking about 70%.What you're really looking at funding is 30%. Well, where does that 30% come from? That comes from premiums, and typically, a lot of it is paid for by employers, and some of it's paid for by employees. And some of it is just paid by individuals who aren't employed at all.Well, it's all about how you look at the pie. The numbers show that you could probably insure, you could probably implement a Medicare For All type package in California, for everyone, paying less than what we're paying today. So there's savings in the system. The problem is, where are those savings coming from?And that is, I pay premiums for my health insurance. Is that a tax? I mean, we're playing a little bit of a semantics game. Someone's paying this money. There's $400 billion in the system. That's what we're paying. So why do people say, "Well, if we use single payer, and it costs," let's say, 400 billion, it'll actually costs less than that.Why do they say, "Well, we have to raise all these new taxes?" Well, it's because, instead of paying healthcare premiums, people will pay taxes. That's the difference. So based on studies, serious financial studies, it appears that single payer is financially feasible, without the scare of all these new taxes. The money's there.Lisa Kiefer:But will we continue to get the money from the federal government, if we win on single payer here in California? Or would it be cut off?Eric Leenson:Okay. It is dependent upon continuing to receive the funding that exists in the system today.Lisa Kiefer:Both state and federal.Eric Leenson:Correct. One of the largest stumbling blocks is about the federal portion, because it's not impossible. In fact, it's very likely that Washington, under this administration, would refuse to go along with this. There are what are known as waivers available for states to experiment and do different types of financing within healthcare, still using federal money, but it's got to be approved by the federal government.So it's not impossible. But when people raise the question about, "Well, it's going to be a really hard slog to get this done, because we're not going to have the federal government." Well, the reality is that shouldn't prevent us from doing it.I mean, it's like saying, "Well, we shouldn't regulate our car emissions, because we got to fight the federal government." What's the difference, in some sense? And the reality is, given the breadth and depth of the healthcare system impact on the overall economy, this is not something that's going to happen overnight.So it makes, in my opinion, lots and lots of sense, to get California prepared, to be able to launch a program. And by the time we have the laws in place and things happening, then we'll hopefully have a new type of administration in Washington, and see about those possibilities. But it's going to take time. If we don't start preparing now, we're really going to be caught cold.Lisa Kiefer:Are there other states? There are other states that are experimenting with single payer.Eric Leenson:Not really.Lisa Kiefer:You know, I used to lives in Massachusetts, and that was-Eric Leenson:What? That's Romney Care.Lisa Kiefer:Okay.Eric Leenson:Now, I mean, the difference between single payer is literally, you're taking private insurance companies out of the mix.That's where a lot of the savings come from, because I would contend that they provide no value. What they are are middlemen who collect a revenue, for basically not doing anything, and they game the system so that they can maximize their revenues.This is why you see, I mean, you know, getting into the business part of this... In the 562 bill, because you asked, there were clear provisions within that bill, there's a certain amount of money allocated for job retraining. So you asked about the people-Lisa Kiefer:Yes, whenever there's a disruption, people retrain jobs.Eric Leenson:Yeah. There's tremendous concern. No one wants anyone to get hurt on this, but you know, it's the reality. Okay, well, should we continue hiring longshoreman to unload ships by hand, and not use technology?Lisa Kiefer:Right. So I think you explained what single payer actually is.Eric Leenson:Well, [crosstalk 00:14:29]-Lisa Kiefer:Why don't you say it again, for people who... unless you don't really care.Eric Leenson:Okay, what's really important to understand, single payer is not what people think is "socialized medicine." It's not government control of the services, medical services, that people receive. Right now, the way Medicare works is, the federal government is the financer of this. They set the rules of what can be paid for certain services, devices-Lisa Kiefer:Prescriptions-Eric Leenson:Prescriptions, things like that. Although, unfortunately they can't set the prices for prescriptions.Lisa Kiefer:The Veterans Administration can.Eric Leenson:Yeah, the Veterans only, but it has nothing to do with the actual provision of medical services. So I, as a Medicare recipient, go out and I pick the doctor and the plan that I want, and the government does not control that. And all of the services I receive are run by individual plans, clinics, doctors. It's not owned by the government.So, understand we talk about single payer, it's only the financing part. It's got nothing to do with the benefits that you receive as a consumer. If anything, it will help regulate them, so that you get better services, and you know what you're entitled to, rather than having to play this game.I mean, you probably know, that you can go to eight different hospitals in the same area, if there were eight hospitals, everyone would have a different price.Lisa Kiefer:Right.Eric Leenson:And there's no way of knowing what you're getting, what the value is, and the prices are extreme. It could be 300% more in one place than the other, with absolutely no difference in service, right?Lisa Kiefer:So you've got the support of nurses, and do doctors generally support this too? I would think they would.Eric Leenson:I would say there are a number of doctors who do, and then there are many who don't, because they fear that since the government will regulate pricing, that they may not be as profitable as they were. I would say it kind of breaks down to the primary care physicians, for the most part, are in favor.Think of it this way, in some sense, and I don't want to take this comparison too far. Kaiser's like a single payer. Kaiser has hospitals, Kaiser has medical staff, so they're providing a one-stop service. You Pay Kaiser, and then you have all your medical care taken care of. Unfortunately, Kaiser is also an insurance plan. So Kaiser is against this, because-Lisa Kiefer:And they have high deductibles, depending on what you choose, I mean-Eric Leenson:Yeah. They're an insurance company, and unfortunately, the insurance company kind of dominates, I think, when it comes to the issue of single payer. But no, I think in the cases you're describing, there would be huge benefits.We allow doctors, and you talk to Canadians, doctors for example, who've been here and been there. It says, you know, single payer gives them a chance to really be doctors, instead of administrators and paper pushers.Lisa Kiefer:And I've saw something like this, I watched a wonderful documentary that I got through you.It's called, Fix It: Healthcare at the Tipping Point. And in these next few minutes, you'll see the history of healthcare. It hasn't always been like this.Speaker 3:In 1969, Blue Cross Blue Shield had a community rating. Everybody paid the same rates. It was a truly nonprofit, and in every state, they were, Blue Cross Blue Shields were regulated to serve the public interest. That's what we gave up on.Speaker 4:Some executives at life insurance companies saw an opportunity to come into this area, to come into this space, and make some money. So they came in and started offering cut-rate policies, but only to those who were younger and healthier.Speaker 5:The group of people subscribing to Blue Cross Blue Shield became less and less healthy, more and more expensive, forcing the Blues to raise their rates more and more. And by the late '70s, early '80s, in every state in the union, the old Blue Cross Blue Shield model was dying. These companies were going bankrupt. Nonprofit companies couldn't make it.Speaker 4:For-profit insurance companies over the years became so dominant that they actually controlled, came to control the healthcare system. They bought a lot of the Blue Cross plans. A lot of the Blue Cross plans now are for-profit companies.Speaker 6:The US has, we're on the shortest length of stays in hospitals of any country, and we're told we have to shorten it. We go to the doctor about 4.2 times a year. The Japanese go 13 times. So we're told that we use too much healthcare, and we have to restrict access to save money, when in fact, we're below average when it comes to comparable countries.Speaker 5:The whole system is set up to discourage people from using healthcare.Speaker 7:The insurance companies are specialists at figuring out ways of covering less or paying less, the sicker you are.Speaker 4:So not only are people having to pay more money out of their own pockets for care in these plans, or they're finding that the choice of providers has been narrowed.Speaker 8:As a primary care physician, I have selected the specialists that I'm most comfortable working with. As it stands right now, I've got to say to my staff, "Check if Dr. Brown is a member of this patient's insurance." And so, referrals are so much more limited in the current system.Lisa Kiefer:They interviewed doctors, they interviewed business people, and that was the fascinating part, and I wanted to talk to you about that as how healthcare today affects small and medium-sized businesses. What have you seen as the challenges it presents?Eric Leenson:It's good that you've differentiated small, medium size from really big businesses, because they're two different animals entirely.In the case of small businesses, single payer would be a huge boon to small business.Lisa Kiefer:And why is that?Eric Leenson:Because under the Affordable Care Act, they're, they're not required to have insurance unless they have, I forget the exact numbers, either 25 or 50 employees. So you have a lot of small businesses, let's say 20 employees that basically are on their own, have to deal with the private health insurance market, and simply can't afford to have insurance.So right now, as I recall, of small business, only about 20% provide any health insurance for their employees. And it's not, they don't want to, it's, they really don't think they can afford it. So a single payer plan would really be beneficial to small business. Their employees would therefore have health insurance.So what that means, in the case of small business, is first of all, it gives them a boost in competition. Because right now, what happens, you're a small business, and you can barely pay a wage, but you can't provide benefits. Well, guess what? If you get a good employee, if you're able to get a good employee, qualified employee, as soon as they get an offer at a bigger company that's providing even a comparable wage, but providing benefits, they're gone.Lisa Kiefer:They take it. Because people need benefits.Eric Leenson:People need benefits, because you can't exist in this society.Lisa Kiefer:And they have children, and-Eric Leenson:Right. So, basically, it would sort of level the playing field for them, in a way that doesn't exist today. It would also be a real boon for entrepreneurs. Because a lot of people that would like to start their own businesses don't do it, because they're afraid of leaving where they are, because I have health benefits. And they can't go out on their own, and you know, they're taking a risk already by opening a business. You're doubling that by the question of providing for healthcare.Now I should mention this. I mean, the Affordable Care Act, it was passed,, Obamacare has helped the situation. I mean, a lot of people are able to get health insurance now, that are entrepreneurs, that weren't able to previously. But that's all up in in question.Now this will be tremendously beneficial for small business. Large business is a different story. It's a different story, because again, they have the resources to function within the system. Warren Buffett, the famous investor, has called healthcare the tapeworm of the US economy. You can't have a globally competitive economy that has 20% of the cost of healthcare.I mean, right now, the US businesses that go to Canada, and have the, the single payer system there, you know, are thrilled, because it reduces their costs significantly.Lisa Kiefer:And they can put that money toward capital investments, and-Eric Leenson:Employment, the whole, the whole business.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah.Eric Leenson:But you've got a situation in which, and in fact, there are a lot of initiatives now, starting up, of private companies that are beginning to do their own health insurance.I know there was a very, there's a very famous new grouping formed by Warren Buffett, I'm going to get this wrong, I guess Microsoft, and Citibank, I guess, that is looking into how they can provide health insurance for their combined million employees. Because they can't fathom the present system as being so expensive, that it's just not workable for them.Lisa Kiefer:And so, what you, backing up to what you said about large. So you're saying, it doesn't affect large businesses so much, because they have so much more moneyEric Leenson:Well, it does. I mean, it's gotten to the point where it is affecting large business so much, that they're looking for alternative solutions, but at the same time, they're not really interested in doing a generalized single payer type route for the whole society. They believe, first of all, for the businesses that don't want to do single payer, they believe they can handle it regardless, because of their incomes.And the other thing that's important is, a lot of the larger businesses, especially in like a Silicon Valley situation, they use health benefits as a perk to get employees, to attract employees. So there are a lot of large companies that don't want to give up the control of healthcare, because they see that as a way they provide value for their employees-Lisa Kiefer:Right.Eric Leenson:In a competitive mode. The other aspect is, you know, ideologically, there's generally a distrust of government. And even though you can show the numbers till you're blue in the face, they're going to raise this as, "Well, you know, we prefer a private enterprise solution. We don't trust government. The quality's going to be bad. Who's going to really be responsible?"So those are the issues. But at the same time, as I started to say, it's gotten so out of control, the costs, have gotten so out of control, that businesses now are beginning to set up their own alternative systems, in which they will negotiate the prices of services.For example, now you have companies that are contracting with specialized hospitals around the country, whereby, if one of their employees needs a specialized operation, they send them to that hospital rather than a local hospital.Lisa Kiefer:To most people here, it's a no brainer. Is there anything that could go awry with a single payer system here? What could go wrong?Eric Leenson:What could go wrong?Lisa Kiefer:Yeah.Eric Leenson:The people putting it together could be incompetent, and really not make it as efficient or as beneficial for the general population. I mean, it's got to be done carefully. It's complex. You run into a situation where you're now giving all these wonderful benefits to citizens. What happens in the case of an economic downturn? The government's on the hook now.Lisa Kiefer:Yes, in this case, it would be the state of California.Eric Leenson:Well, if there were single payer in California.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah.Eric Leenson:Yes, yes.Lisa Kiefer:And Jerry Brown had said that he, in 10 years, he predicted a serious downturn.Eric Leenson:Right.Lisa Kiefer:I don't know what he was basing that on specifically, but-Eric Leenson:Right. But then, I think it's important to look at values. I mean, you look at what a government is for, what our society should stand for. Well, it seems to me, that healthcare is a right, that everyone should have access to good healthcare. And if you have to pay for it, well guess what? You have to pay for it. And you figure out how a society should do that.Maybe there are other parts of the budget that are not so important as healthcare might be, especially for people that don't have any, or are really underserved.Lisa Kiefer:Well, what is it people should be looking at?Eric Leenson:We have the elections coming up now in November. I would really encourage people to look at the candidates, and what their standards are on this issue of single payer.And again, unfortunately, you have to go below the surface, because rhetorically, all the Democrats are going to be it. But within the Democrats, you have people that really want to push it now, and others who are gradualists, that say, "Look, we can't do anything for the foreseeable future. It's not worth the time."Well, that I think that's a defeatist attitude that we have to, you know, look out against. I mean, I know, here in this Assembly race, we have a situation like that, where there's one candidate who probably is mouthing the words, because they sound good, and one who's really serious about it. Then I would say, once the elections happen, to really hold people's feet to the fire, if they're elected based on the fact that they're going to do something, really, don't let them get away without doing anything. Just sort of, you know, work.There'll be groups organized to put pressure on legislators to continue to fight for it. I mean, again, it's going to be a process. There's so many stakeholders involved in this issue. There needs to be coming together of the various groupings.And one thing that has happened, you're probably not aware of, is that in the last budget, there was a $5 million allocated to set up a commission to study how to implement what they call unified healthcare financing. Now, they specifically didn't say single payer, but we believe the intention is to certainly consider single payer within that. Because it'd be very interesting to see-Lisa Kiefer:You're not involved in that-Eric Leenson:How it goes.Lisa Kiefer:Are you, on that committee?Eric Leenson:Oh, no, no, no. This is going to be, this is a five-person committee, that three people were selected by the Governor, one by the Assembly, and one by the Senate, and we're hoping to get at least one strong single payer representative on that grouping.We're going have to see, because again, it could be, we've seen it before. This could be a bluff, where they put together a commission to study something, which means, "Okay, we don't have to deal with it for two or three years."Lisa Kiefer:"We're still studying it."Eric Leenson:Because we've got a commission going on it, right?Lisa Kiefer:Yeah. Well, Eric, if people have questions for you, or do you have a website you would direct them to?Eric Leenson:Sure. They can go to the Business Alliance for a Healthy California.Lisa Kiefer:And I have to say it's a good website. That's where I found the link to the documentary, Fix it. I really highly recommend it to anyone, and you can watch it on Vimeo, online and everything, and-Eric Leenson:And we're sort of in the, in the process of repositioning, because as I say, things are going to change dramatically, once we see who become the new elected officials, particularly on the Governor's side, and the poss... It's going to open up a whole, especially if Gavin Newsom wins election, a whole new set of possibilities to be explored about really trying to do something positive.Lisa Kiefer:Well, thank you for being on the program.Eric Leenson:Sure. Thank you.Lisa Kiefer:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back again in two weeks. 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Host Ali Nazar interviews Jason Marsh, Editor in Chief of the Greater Good Science Center, on the campus organizations work on quantifying what makes people happy.Transcript:Ali Nazar:You're listening to KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, University of California and listener supported radio. And this is Method to the Madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at CalX, exploring the innovative spirit of the Bay Area. I'm your host, Ali Nazar. Thanks for joining us today. And with me in studio I have Jason Marsh, the founding editor-in-chief of Greater Good magazine. Hey Jason, how's it going?Jason Marsh:All right, how are you? Thanks for having me.Ali Nazar:I'm good, thanks for coming in. And so, we have lots of founders on of organizations and I always asked the same question to start because you usually create something because you see like a gap. You're trying to fill something. So what's the kind of the problem statement that Greater Good is trying to solve?Jason Marsh:Sure. Well they're really to kind of at the heart of of Greater Good. And one is that there is a whole lot of great research and big ideas generated within universities like Cal, that never really see the light of day, never really make it out into the world and have an impact to improve peoples' quality of life, to improve relationships, to public policy or education. And so, Greater Good was really born to this idea that we should have a more of a bridge between science and practice. There should be ways where the fruits of research, should really make its way out to the public, to really benefit the public, improve public wellbeing really broadly and improve individual wellbeing, improved the way people relate to one another and improve institutions, like schools and workplaces and healthcare systems and and political systems as well. And really, the second animating idea behind Greater Good was that there's this fundamental misconception about human nature.There is, has been a prevailing belief that we're sort of born bad, born aggressive, born antisocial. And yet, there was this emerging body of research over time really pointing to this more positive narrative about human nature. Suggesting that actually there are really deeply rooted propensities for goodness, for altruism, for compassion. And by changing that narrative and changing what people expect humans are capable of, we can really change behavior and really change some of those institutions as well for the better. So there was really this marriage of ideas that there's a real need to get the word out about this research coming out of academia, coming out of social science, to really change people's understanding of who they are, what they're capable of and in effect, provide a huge bridge between what the scientific community was starting to understand and what the rest of the world could really benefit from.Ali Nazar:Wow. It sounds amazing and so needed in these times. And it makes me wonder about kind of the history of the science of happiness. Like that doesn't seem like a science, when you think about sciences. What is the history behind this study?Jason Marsh:Sure. So, backing up, for decades really, for much of the 20th century, a lot of psychology and other behavioral, cognitive, social sciences were really focused on the roots of pathologies. The roots of why is it that people do evil, do bad things, how to institutions become corrupt. But starting, there had been this strain of research that really toward the late nineties started to take off and focusing on, let's look not just at human pathology, let's look not just to what's wrong with people, but really try to understand what can go right and how we can actually help people have a greater sense of thriving and happiness and wellbeing, both to address some of the deficiencies that we experience and also to take certain situations where people might feel like they are just sort of getting by in life and to really infuse a greater sense of thriving, of happiness, of wellbeing, to really create in some ways a more positive ripple effect through society as a whole.And so, that there has been this growing movement, some call positive psychology, in some ways to distinguish it from other strains of psychology. Focusing really on happiness and wellbeing, and our center has in some ways built on some of that research, but we've also really drawn on work, not just on individual happiness and personal wellbeing, but really social relationships. And there's, at the same time, it's been a growing emphasis, not just on personal happiness, but on social relationships, on compassion, on altruism, really what makes people do good and what makes people feel good.Ali Nazar:So that it's a relatively new science is what you're saying.Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:Late nineties, so it's a 21st century type of study.Jason Marsh:Exactly. Yeah.Ali Nazar:Interesting. Okay. So before we dive further into what Greater Good does, can you tell me a little about yourself? Like how did you come to become founding editor of a magazine dedicated to this topic?Jason Marsh:Sure. Yeah. I sometimes think of myself as like the luckiest guy in Berkeley. I came out here in the early 2000s, about 2002, just at the time, the center ... At the time, the center was called the Center for the Development of Peace and Wellbeing. So it was a a real mouthful. And it was a bunch of psychology faculty who kind of knew, really broadly that they had this mission to take this new research of wellbeing, new research of compassion and generosity and help get it out to a wider audience. But they didn't quite know how to do that. They didn't have as much experience on the communication side, on the journalism side.My background's in journalism, I got connected to the faculty. They basically invited me to pitch what I would do with some kind of publication focused on this research, on these topics. I had been doing something sort of coincidentally somewhat similar type of work in Washington, DC had been editing this more political journal on civic engagement and community building. A lot of overlap and so put together kind of my dream job basically for what I would do with a a magazine along these lines that I thought would really be beneficial and really make a big public impact and really help people. And you know the team, liked the idea, we developed the first issue as a pilot and that was published in 2004, and it's kind of taken off from there.Ali Nazar:14 years later.Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:Still publishing, is it a monthly/quarterly, what is it?Jason Marsh:So it started off as a print magazine. It became a quarterly, 2009 we shifted to be entirely online so it's now, Greater Good magazine is now entirely online. And then, since that time as well, we've grown other programs and projects out of Greater Good. So there's still the hub, Greater Good, greatergood.berkeley.edu, is still the hub of all kinds of content, thousands of articles and videos and podcasts. But we have also an events series, a couple of online courses, host of other programs, all basically focused on the same research.Ali Nazar:Cool. Well I want to get more into kind of what you guys do and the breadth of it. Right now we're talking to Jason Marsh, he's the founding editor and chief of Greater Good magazine right here on campus at UC Berkeley. And before we get into the breadth of programs, I did want to get a little bit more into that founding story of the Greater Good center itself, because this show really focuses on this kind of spark of how do things grow from this one idea. So it sounds like you had could walked into an organization that would just kind of beginning, can you give us the history of it?Jason Marsh:Yeah, so it's a really amazing and pretty powerful story. So, there were a couple Tom and Ruth Ann Hornaday, who graduated from Berkeley in the early sixties and then sadly in the nineties lost a daughter to cancer. And they both were trying to honor her memory and spirit and also build on their great love and affinity for Cal, and came to the university and said essentially, we want to do something to foster peace and wellbeing in the world and to honor her memory and honor ... But they knew it was really the great research and great ideas coming out of Cal. And they, together with George Breslauer, who was dean of social sciences at the time, came up with an idea for a center that'd be different than a lot of other centers at Cal or beyond, that it wouldn't just be focused on research. It would really be focused on taking research conducted at Cal and even more broadly and really focusing on getting that work out to the public. So it had a wider impact on families, on schools and society at large.So there was sort of this initial brainstorming committee of a few psychology faculty at Cal. So Dacher Keltner was our founding faculty director, Steve Hinshaw and Phil and Carolyn Callan were all psychology faculty whose research in one way or another, all focused on, how do we not only address sort of what's wrong with people, but help them build really lives, positive relationships. And so, together came up with the idea of ... and I should say as well, Dacher and and Steve and Phil and Carolyn, all were committed in their own work, not just to doing really top tier research, but also really to find innovative ways to get that work out to the public and have it serve a real public benefit.So, together they came up with the idea for a center that would do that, came up with the idea for a Center for the Development of Peace and Wellbeing. Fortunately, I was able to connect with them just at that moment where they're contemplating how to really get the center out to a wider audience, get the research out to a wider audience. And I should say a few years after that, after Greater Good launched as a print magazine, we changed the name of the center to be the Greater Good Science Center, instead of the Center for the Development of Peace and Wellbeing.Ali Nazar:Yeah, Greater Good's a little catchier.Jason Marsh:A little catchier, a lot of confusion about what exactly we did. And it was also really hard and long to say.Ali Nazar:Okay. So you're ... Jason, you're someone who traffics in this knowledge of what makes people happy. So I have to ask you the question, what makes people happy?Jason Marsh:A good question. So the simple answer is strong social connections and positive relationships. There's a line from the research though, sort of with a caveat, is a line from the research saying relationships are necessary but not sufficient to happiness, right? So, if you don't have positive relationships, it's going to be really hard to find true happiness in life. And yet, it's not just about relationships itself. There could be other factors, other extenuating circumstances, other things in play that could still hinder your happiness. But the relationships are often really a foundation and key starting point.So out of that work, there's been a whole host of studies, lots of research looking at the benefits and also how do you then build successful connections? How do you build successful relationships that are so strongly linked to happiness? I should say as well, when we talk about happiness, we're not just talking about fleeting feelings of pleasure, and just feeling good. A definition that we use is, it is partly about positive emotion, but it's also about this deeper sense of purpose and meaning and satisfaction with your life, that goes beyond just moment to moment experiences of pleasure. So that's why our tagline actually for the Center is a science of a meaningful life. Right? This deeper sense of goodness or commitment to something beyond the self.Ali Nazar:It's really interesting that that's the definition as you see it, because it speaks to the interdependence that we all have on each other, as opposed to like, you know, it's a very American, I think concept to be very independent.Jason Marsh:Exactly.Ali Nazar:To not need anybody. So, it's like our society is maybe not set up to be happy in some ways if that's what you guys have found in the science.Jason Marsh:Right. Yeah, exactly. And that's, in some ways, makes the work somewhat challenging, we're running against some pretty big cultural currents. At the same time, that's what gets us up in the morning to feel like there is a need for the work, it isn't just something that people are already completely embracing, and you know that's already, totally dominant beliefs or practices in our culture there are these competing ideas. And don't get me wrong, I think there's a lot to be said obviously, for individualism and for independence, but part of our work and part of the research suggests is that it's really important to find the right balance, right? Between both pursuing your own personal goals and dreams and wellbeing and also recognizing the ways that you are also living in community. Your actions affect others and a lot of your wellbeing is both contingent on and helps to influence the wellbeing and contributions of others.Ali Nazar:So have you ... I would think in the science of happiness, there's been studies of many different cultures and like this is a social science, right?Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:So that's a lot of like looking at long trends and surveys and stuff like that. So what are some of the learnings that have been found from other countries that maybe aren't as individualistic capitalistic as America?Jason Marsh:Yeah, so you know, it's a great question. In the last five, 10 years or so, there's been, as the science of happiness has taken off and really gone global in a lot of ways, there has emerged a broader sense on happiness around the world. There is now a world happiness report, put out sort of in connection with the UN regularly, that often finds that the countries that are ranked the highest on measures of happiness, looking at several different factors, are the ones that have in some ways a a stronger egalitarian spirit, have a stronger sort of social democratic tradition of greater commitment to the common good and less inequality.So, a lot of those values that are more community-minded, more civically-minded, often translate into greater happiness for individuals within the country itself. Which is sort of paradoxical, right? We often think about those two things being somewhat at odd, right? Like having to sacrifice your needs for the greater good. When in fact like actually having that commitment to the greater good, having a commitment to something bigger than yourself. Having a a culture and even on government that tries to foster that greater sense of like, we're all in this together. Actually, the individuals within those societies, do better, feel better individually as well.Ali Nazar:Are there any places in the world, like if you're, you know, looking to be an expat American, you want to become a happy person, where should we go?Jason Marsh:Denmark always ranks really high. Denmark, Norway-Ali Nazar:Scandinavians.Jason Marsh:And other countries. Yeah. Costa Rica does as well actually often in a lot of those surveys.Ali Nazar:Is there a correlation between higher tax rates and happiness?Jason Marsh:That's been looked at a little bit, because [crosstalk]Ali Nazar:A little bit of theoretically that's the go for ... you're giving it to other people, right?Jason Marsh:Right, exactly. Yeah. I mean there's, that the tax rate itself hasn't, I wouldn't say it's been proven as a definite cause or clear determinant of happiness, but certainly there were a lot of other sort of correlational data, a lot of other data suggesting that there is a strong relationship. At the very least, there's evidence suggesting that inequality is bad for happiness, right? And inequality is also bad for pro social behavior as well. Pro social as supposed to antisocial behavior, right? So in situations where there are greater power imbalances, it's not just bad for the person who is on the lower end of the totem pole, but also for someone who is in a higher level of status, there's evidence suggesting that they're actually their skills at connecting with other people being more altruistic, being more compassionate, those skills are actually compromised by their elevated status. So all the kinds of skills that you need really to make the kinds of connections that are linked to happiness are impeded by elevated status.Ali Nazar:Yeah, it's really, really fascinating. We're talking to Jason Marsh, he's the founding editor-in-chief of Greater Good magazine from the Greater Good Science Center right here on campus. You're listening to Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM, I'm your host, Ali Nazar.And so, one of the founding principles of this center is to bridge the gap between academia and the real world. And so, I was looking at your guys' website, you have a lot of programs for different types of real world applications. So I'd like to dive-in a little bit about kind of how you guys are delivering on that promise of the mission. So first let's talk about parents and families, it's one of the constituencies you kind of name on your website. And I'm a member of a family and it's hard, with little kids and all that. And so happiness is a thought that comes around a lot, because like you're kind of always yelling at some little kid to do something. So what have you guys found and how do you apply research to that setting?Jason Marsh:Sure. So, I mean, one of the main things we've tried to do, really from day one, is to produce quality research-based materials, resources for parents who are often up at 2:00 AM, I've been in this case with a kid of my own, googling ways, looking for ways to be a better parent, to yell less at your kids, to be more understanding, be more patient. And so, part of our focus has been from day one, to really focus not just on common wisdom, conventional wisdom, but really what the research suggests are really effective ways to foster happiness and wellbeing within families. And also to raise kids with the kinds of skills that lead them to a sort of happy and meaningful lives. So from early-on we had produced, when we had the print magazine, a lot of articles on families and child development.We had for a number of years a really popular parenting blog called Raising Happiness by actually a Berkeley PhD, Christine Carter, who wrote a book of the same name, that also proved to be a really great resource for parents. And more recently we've actually launched a new parenting initiative, we have a great parenting director at the center, Miriam Abdula who runs a program, where she's both writing about the science of wellbeing for parents and families. And also, running a program where we give out grants, sort of modest sized grants to different community-based programs around the country that want their work to serve parents and help their kids, help parents help their kids develop the kinds of skills that we know are linked to happiness and wellbeing and leading sort of positive, meaningful lives. So providing both funding and also helping to connect those programs to researchers who can help ground their work a little bit more deeply in the research to make sure that there's a really strong scientific basis to it.Ali Nazar:Okay, cool. And tell me about some of the other programs. I saw there was a bunch of different people or constituencies that you kind of focus on, but tell me about some of the main programs right now.Jason Marsh:Yeah, so like parents, we've also focused a lot on educators over the years. Really helping people who are trying to help kids, especially both so that they can provide useful resources and tools for kids and also to serve their own wellbeing. Right? I mean, educators, there's huge demands, a lot of stressors, a lot of evidence that there's really great burnout and turnover in the profession. So we've tried to provide resources both so that teachers can better serve their students and also so they can better serve themselves and make sure that they don't burn out.So similarly, we've a whole host of resources on our website for teachers. We also for the last six years, have run a summer institute for educators. We've had teachers come from just about every state in the country, from dozens of countries around the world, to come to Berkeley for a week and get really a crash course in the science of wellbeing and explore together how they can take the science and really apply it meaningfully to their classroom.And now more recently, our education team is developing a new resource coming soon, early in 2019, really to serve as a clearing house, really the best tools, best resources, best practices and strategies, so that to make it even easier for teachers to take all this wisdom from the science and really incorporate it into their classroom, into their school, without having to add yet another thing on their agenda to make it as seamless and hopefully as painless as possible.Ali Nazar:Cool. Well it sounds like there's ... your website has a lot of tools it sounds like, for helping people to access the different programs you have. And then when I was looking through, there's a breadth of things you guys do. There's events, there's content being published and-Jason Marsh:Yep, exactly.Ali Nazar:So I did want to ask about, you talked about what makes people happy, but this science, I would think in the study of this would give you some tips on how to change someone who's not happy to become happy. Like that's the trick, right?Jason Marsh:Yeah.Ali Nazar:There's a lot of people out there who are weighted down by a lot of different stressors of all different types. So what's your recommendation? You guys have all access to all this knowledge. If there's a listener who's not happy, what should they do?Jason Marsh:Yeah, so there are ... it's been a really big question in the field, right? Because early on, focus on happiness was like, let's just figure out if we can take people who are, you know, moderately happy and try to make them happier. More recently, there's been a focus on, let's look at more at risk populations and people even who are having suicidal thoughts are at risk for depression, and see if a lot of these same strategies can be effective for them as well. And fortunately, many of them have been. There are ... should say, like offer the caveat right up front for people dealing with serious depression or serious psychiatric problems, it's still, most important for them to see a mental health professional. The tools that we offer on the site are not supposed to be a substitute for therapy say.But certainly there's a huge number of people who just feel like ... who are kind of unhappy, who are maybe struggling with maybe some symptoms of depression or just feel like they're not as satisfied with their lives they'd like to be. And so that, the research has found, successfully found that there are ways that they can actually benefit over time. One of the big focuses of that work has been on gratitude as a practice. Right? So there's been, for the last 20 years or so, a huge emerging science of gratitude. We focused on a lot, which in some ways is just really simply, recognizing and appreciating the gifts and good things in your life, that you might otherwise take for granted. Right? So they basic idea is, there are lots of positive things that might happen to us over the course of a day that we just kind of ignore or take for granted.And by training our minds over time and focusing a little bit more deliberately on some of those good things, we can gradually kind of change the narrative that we're telling ourselves about our lives and change kind of the emotional tone of our lives, so that it ceases just to be about the ways that people have taken advantage of you or been mean to you. But you start to recognize ways that people have actually gone out of their way to be kind to you and nice things that people have done for you and you see yourself differently in relation to others. You see other people differently and you see sort of human nature differently as well. So, and at the same time, you're creating more of these positive memories, right? By actually noticing and appreciating and savoring more positive experiences, you're then creating these positive memories you can return to over time as well. So it provides both these greater momentary experiences of happiness and also these greater lasting memories and lasting resonating feelings of happiness as well.Ali Nazar:It's so interesting that you say that we're speaking with Jason Marsh is a founding editor of Greater Good magazine. It's interesting that you say that because our society is moving to a place with less time and less and less time. So like you're talking about getting space to recognize positive things and have gratitude for it, but it feels like we have less and less space.Jason Marsh:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a huge issue and I think that's been something we focus on in the last few years, especially is the impact of new technology, especially on wellbeing, on being able to hone a lot of these skills. Because yeah, I mean gratitude, there's also a huge emerging science, which a lot of people have read about on mindfulness. A lot of it places really strong emphasis on taking moments essentially to pause and notice your surroundings. Even savor and appreciate some of the good you might pass by otherwise. And that is really at odds both with the pace of our culture, with our work lives, with technology. And so, in some ways it's a great challenge, but in some ways it's calling for the need for these practices to be as widely spread and embraced or embraced as widely as possible because there are so many other forces that are pushing in the opposite direction.Ali Nazar:Yeah, yeah, well the work is really needed. So I appreciate you coming in and telling us about it. I always end interviews Method to the Madness with the same question. This is an organization founded with a thesis to help bridge the gap between the academic research on happiness and getting it out there in the world. So, if everything went perfect five years from now, like what would the goal of Greater Good Center look like?Jason Marsh:Yeah. So if everything went well five years from now, we've been asking this question of ourselves a lot lately. I think we would see a lot of the tools and ideas we're putting out in the world, embraced not just by more individuals. Like we were really pleased to see the growth in our organization as ... in general. We-Ali Nazar:How many people work there?Jason Marsh:When we are a print magazine, let's see, we have a staff of 14 but other Grad students and faculty who are involved. When we started as a print magazine, we reached 5,000 subscribers. We now have about 600,000 unique visitors to the website each month. We have an online course that's enrolled about 600,000 students as well.Ali Nazar:Anybody can enroll?Jason Marsh:Anybody can roll. It's a free course. Anybody can access the resources on the website, they're all free. So that's all really, really gratifying to see so many individuals really hungering for and based on our own surveys and research, seemingly benefiting from those resources. However, we feel like there's still just really huge needs in organizations and institutions. In our education system, in our healthcare system, in our workplaces. And we're starting more and more to work more directly with schools and districts and companies and leaders in healthcare, and where we'd really like to go and where we'd like to see the work go is to see it embedded even more directly to inform and really influence and shape the policies and best practices within some of those major institutions that just have influence over, millions if not billions of people worldwide.Ali Nazar:Cool. Well, it's a great vision and mission. So thanks for coming in today, Jason.Jason Marsh:Thanks for having me.Ali Nazar:We've been speaking with Jason Marsh, he's a founding editor-in-chief of Greater Good magazine. And Jason, just a quick plug for people want to understand how to get involved and access these resources. Can you tell them how to do it?Jason Marsh:Yeah, thanks Ali. Best place to go is our Greater Good magazine website, that's greatergood.berkeley.edu. And best way to stay on top of what we're doing and stay in touch is to sign-up from that site for our free weekly newsletter.Ali Nazar:Okay, great. Well you heard right here, this is KALX Berkeley. I'm your host Ali Nazar and Methods to the Madness. Thanks for joining everybody, and thanks again for joining us, Jason, and everybody have a great Friday. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Ali Nazar interviews Shaun Tai, Executive Director for Oakland Digital, on the organization's innovative approach to bringing tech and design jobs to underserved populations in the East Bay.Transcript:Ali Nazar:You're listening to KALX Berkeley, 90.7 FM, University of California and listener-supported radio, and this is Method to the Madness, coming at you from the Public Affairs department here at KALX, celebrating the innovative spirit of the Bay Area. I'm your host, Ali Nazar, and today with me I have Shaun Tai on the phone. He's the Executive Director of Oakland Digital. Hey, Shaun, how's it going?Shaun Tai:Hey, what's up, man? How are you doing?Ali Nazar:Pretty good. Really appreciate you joining us today.Shaun Tai:Oh, man. I'm happy to be here, man, and spread the knowledge. Spread that inspiration. I'm ready.Ali Nazar:Okay. Great. I always start this program with the same question, because you are a founder of an organization, and founders usually come to the decision to put so much energy into something like starting an organization, and dedicating their blood, sweat, and tears to it because they see a problem in the world. Tell us, what is the problem statement that Oakland Digital is trying to solve?Shaun Tai:Communities of color, specifically community college students, lack the same opportunities afforded to privileged communities. We focus specifically on artists of color, predominantly women of color, that are looking to break into a design career. Our problem really stems from, honestly, my own story of not quite the community college level, but the state level, of Cal State-East Bay, which I love. The teachers are doing a great job. They're teaching software. But they don't have the resources, and to be honest, the time, to be like, "Yo, check this out. Here's what they do at Twitter. Here's what they do at Facebook. Here's what they do at the local agency level." That's what Oakland Digital does, is we take those students and get their foot in the door, of not just tech, but business, non-profits, and some really cool creative agencies.Ali Nazar:Cool. Okay. You alluded to a little bit about your background and how you got to this. Can you tell us a little bit about you and where you come from?Shaun Tai:Man, well I come from the Bay Area, man. As anyone listening knows, the Bay is super real, authentic, dope, to be honest. It's just real. I've always wanted to do something real with my life. My dad passed away when I was two months old. I was raised by a single mother. Very small family. Born and raised by an entrepreneur. A woman entrepreneur of color. That was just the ultimate inspiration, from a work-ethic standpoint, of seeing my mom work seven days a week in Oakland, running a furniture design studio. Just seeing that work-ethic of not just her going to work, and showing up early, but coming back home and cooking for me and my brother.Then, after she cooked dinner, sketching, so 10:00 p.m., 11:00 p.m., and faxing those designs to a factor in Hong Kong to just create some dope furniture. Create things. That mix of creativity, that mix of hard work, really passed on to me, and that's what gave me that spirit of not just creating, but doing something with meaning and purpose.In my mom's case, it was making her customers happy with some great furniture. For me, it was how do I give back to the community with things that I love? Creativity, technology, community, social good, social impact. Really, my mom gets full kudos and credit for being my inspiration.Ali Nazar:Nice. She sounds like an amazing woman.Shaun Tai:She is.Ali Nazar:She put that idea into your brain, and that spirit into you, but what about your training. Did you go have another job or a career before starting Oakland Digital?Shaun Tai:Yeah, man, I'm, dude, I'm glad you asked. I know we were talking offline about music, and how powerful music is. In 2006, my partner Ray Luv, who's actually a Bay Area rap legend ... I grew up on Mac Mall, [inaudible] Tupac's music. We got together and created a YouTube channel when it wasn't hot. YouTube was cool in 2006, but it wasn't what it is now, with people getting billions of hits.We created a show called Pushin' the Bay TV, where we chronicled the Bay Area hip-hop and rap history. Interviewing people from Shock G, Dru Down, Spice 1, Too Short, E-40, The Jacka, rest in peace, and all of these Bay Area rap legends who did not have an online presence, right? But we were the first to say, "Hey, why don't we do this and celebrate the beautiful rap history in the Bay?"Ray Luv and I, we would just go around and interview people. We went down to L.A., East Coast. What I found was how powerful technology was. Specifically the YouTube platform. In one year, we received around 14 million views, and for that time, that was groundbreaking, and ground-shattering. What I found from talking to the young people was how influenced they were by these videos.But what I learned about the game were some of the things that were, I don't want to say negative, but definitely not the things I wanted to promote. After a year of success, and things were going up, I actually decided to give it up, and to cancel, because I wanted to do something for social good. Not that it wasn't powerful. Not that it wasn't getting impressions, but I thought, "How do we use tech for good?"That very simple core of "tech for good" is what birthed the Oakland Digital spirit of tech for good, and then, of course, myself being a designer and a creative, "creative tech for good," right? Those concepts birthed the idea of how do we help artists become professionals? Just like that young 13 year-old watching that YouTube video, how do I not just consume this technology, but create something cool, too, and then take those skills to get a career?That's the birth of OD. Oakland Digital.Ali Nazar:Wow, man. That's such a powerful story. Thank you for sharing it. We're speaking to Shaun Tai, who is the Executive Director of Oakland Digital, here on Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley.Not a lot of people would have the guts to leave a burgeoning career like that, and take a left turn and follow their passion, so that's definitely commendable. I'd love to hear about, after you got to that point of understanding that, "Okay, I want to do something for social good? Creative tech for good." How did you then formulate the idea of how Oakland Digital would actually be an organization pursuing that goal?Shaun Tai:Yeah, I mean, I did gloss over a few details, like one of the biggest things that I learned while doing Pushin' the Bay TV was, there was an event at Stanford. I know you guys are rivals, but Stanford. Shout out to them, too. I met MC Hammer, Chamillionaire, and Mistah Fab, and Quincy Jones III, with Ray Luv and Mac Mall. They're friends. Everyone in the rap industry is friends.When I met MC Hammer, that day, he was introducing this crazy idea called Twitter. This is 2006, 2007. It was this thing that, in 140 characters, you could write about what you're doing. The whole crowd was confused, because here are effectively three rappers that are using this thing called Twitter, and in the crowd, I think very few people were.That's when I learned like, yo, tech doesn't have to be disseminated by the top-down. It can be actually by the community-up. After that day, actually, that same day, I went up to MC Hammer, and I'm like, "Yo, I'm here with Ray Luv and Mac Mall, who you know. Much respect. I love everything from your music career, but also your entrepreneurship. How do I get in touch?" Because he's like, "I love Oakland. I love the A's. I love technology."I tweeted him that night, ironically, I tweeted him, and from that year exchange, back and forth, we became friends. He's still an advisor to Oakland Digital, to this day. Between finding mentors, advisors, early on, to finding people that believed in the vision. Board of directors, co-founders, people that just believe in what you're doing.Then, of course, here's the big thing. Legal. After MC Hammer's like, "Yo, I'm with that idea of tech for good." I was walking down, and this is a true story, I was walking down Broadway, and I see City Hall, in Oakland. I literally said, "I'm just going to walk into City Hall and find out how to start a non-profit."I remember going up inside, checking in with the security guard, going up to the ninth floor, I believe. I met with this lady named Kathy Littles. I don't know if she's still around, but shout-out to Kathy Littles. I said, "I want to start a non-profit that's tech for good." She was like, "What is tech?" She literally said, "What is tech?" Because you have to remember, at this time, '08, right? "Tech" didn't exist in Oakland the way it does now. That was 10 years ago. Nobody even understood the word "tech."I said, "Well, it's these companies like Google, and Facebook, and how do we use that for good?" She was like, "Oh, okay. Well, here's a stack of contacts." Literally probably 10 pieces of paper, front-to-back, of non-profit people. "Contact all of them, then get back to me." Literally, I looked at it like, "Yo, this is crazy." I asked, "Well, how do I get paid?"She laughed. She said, "Non-profits, you've got to fundraise." I was like, "How often?" She laughed again. She said, "You've got to fundraise every day. Every week." I just didn't get the concept, coming from a for-profit background. I literally took that stack of papers, but I found one piece of paper where I started. I just called everyone. I just called everyone. Some had phone numbers, some had e-mails.Then I finally e-mailed one person. She's an artist. She's the only person that got back to me from probably a week of phone calls and e-mails. She said, "I have an art non-profit. Now it's defunct, but a guy named Don Tamaki, who is the," I think she used the term "godfather of Asian law. He helped us get started, but he's too big for you, Shaun. He won't get back to you."I remember cold-calling this law firm, Minami Tamaki LLP, shout-out to them. They're still in the SF. The receptionist picked up, and I said, "Hey, I'm Shaun. I'm just doing a cold call. Could I talk to Don Tamaki?" Just like wide-eyed, didn't know what the hell I was doing. He didn't pick up, but an assistant picked up and said, "Okay, I just shared that you want to start this non-profit. He said come in." On this date and that time, and I go in, and I think I'm wearing jeans and a shirt. I pitched this. There was two gentlemen next to him, who I found out later is his son and his son's friend, who go to Cal, by the way. They were interning with him for the summer.I threw this pitch about "tech for good." Completely vague. It was so bad, I don't even know what it was, but it was really bad. But he saw that passion of helping people with tech for good, and with design. Just taking everything that I cared about and presenting that, right? At the end, he was like, "Shaun, I'm going to help you get incorporated. Get your bylaws. Build your board. I'm going to put my son on this project."Really, that combination of passion, that combination of timing. There's a huge one for your listeners. Things have a time period and time relevance. You know what I'm saying? You can't come up now and start the next Snapchat. That's already over, right? Timing-wise, Oakland was not hit with tech yet. Timing-wise, Don Tamaki had his son interning, right? All of this things had, timing-wise, MC Hammer's talking about Twitter. You know what I'm saying? All of these things just were like a storm of positivity, and just relentlessness, to do something very positive for the community. Right?After that, he helped get us incorporated. We got incorporated July of 2009. And yo, now we're in Downtown Oakland, and we have benches, billboards, bus ads, helped almost 5,000 people to-date. We're just doing big things.Ali Nazar:That's awesome. Well, it's a great story, and I think a really great example of there is a serendipity to the formation of an organization like this. There's the timing, but there's also the passion. The passion that bubbling up from things that have happened in your life, is another thing that depends upon timing, and so-Shaun Tai:Right.Ali Nazar:We're speaking with Shaun Tai today. He's the Executive Director of Oakland Digital, on Method to the Madness here on KALX Berkeley. July 2009, and we're sitting here in 2018. It's been almost 10 years, so just tell me about that journey. You got some momentum there. You got your organization set up. But it's not a clear product or service yet, so how did you get to where you are today, with all of those numbers you just quoted. 5,000 people helped.Shaun Tai:Oh, yeah. I'm so glad that you said that there's no clear purpose yet. I think what's wrong with now is that there's almost an abundance of resources. Speaking about UX and UI. You can download a mobile-UI kit and build a start-up right now, right? But I think what's so dope about that time is there was so much exploration to be done. Right? There weren't solutions, there were questions.Think about that. There were questions, not solutions, at that time. The fact that people believed in the vision, at that time, says something. We had no product, and I talked to one of my advisors at the time. He was only 19 or 20, but he had worked at HP and AOL at 14 years-old. He's just a genius dude. His name is Jordan.I was like, "Jordan, yeah, we're a non-profit now. What should we start doing?" He was like, "Shaun, what are you doing today?" I'm like, "Nothing." "Let's go downtown. Let's pick one block in Oakland." I think it was 14th Street in Oakland. "Let's just go up to every single small business there and ask them what do they need with design and marketing." Right?I remember going to our first business, a small business owned by a Black woman, and she was like, "Oh, my God. I was praying to God, like literally, that someone would come and help me." She was like, "I can't find my phone line." Out of everything in the world, right? "I can't find my phone line." And we [crosstalk]-Ali Nazar:You guys were a gift from God, huh? [crosstalk]-Shaun Tai:No, no. I mean, it was like, she just was like, you know how it is, you're sitting there every day, no one comes through the doors. It's desperation, right?Ali Nazar:Yeah. Yeah.Shaun Tai:We did that, and we were like, "How do people find you?" She was like, "Yelp." That's it, it was like, "Yelp." We literally claimed her business on Yelp. We hooked that up, took photos of her studio, helped clean up the room. That was our first client. Then word of mouth, just going to businesses, talking to students.Really, between helping these small businesses, predominantly women-owned businesses, just like my mom, and then helping local students, Laney College, we were like, "Great. We're helping these two different groups of people. How do we connect them?" Right? Get those young people skills, build up their resume, their portfolios.It's not just pairing them with non-profits and businesses, but solving problems, right? What we ended up doing was start building out programs. One's called Inspire Oakland, where we go to community colleges, and state-level colleges, and we say, "Do you want your artwork on a billboard?" The whole room says, "Yes." Right? We're getting them inspired to have a professional career.Right? Because at school, you're like, "Okay, I know PhotoShop. I know Illustrator. But how do you apply that to anything real?" We, effectively, with Inspire Oakland, are the clients for these students. They're designing billboards for us to spec. Literally, commercial-spec billboards, bleeds, color, visual hierarchy, following the creative brief, going through multiple revisions, iterations of designs. That's what gets the students really, really excited about their careers.We only pick six winners, and those are the winners you see up all over Oakland right now, buses, benches, and billboards. But the question that we ask all of the students is, "Do you want to be an apprentice at Oakland Digital?" Once the billboard competition ends, while the billboards go up, we select, from around 70-80 students, a cohort of 10-12 apprentices. Those are the students that, yo, once they get through Oakland Digital, they're ready for hire. That's what we're doing right now. We have 10 apprentices learning UX. These are raw artists that are super talented with pencil and pen, but not so much the digital space, right? The reason we pick the tech space as the formats and the learning environment is that those are the highest-paying jobs. Now, here's the thing, brother: we're not telling them to get tech jobs. In fact, I'm very proud that a lot of them don't want to get tech jobs. However, the mindset of design-thinking, the mindset of design sprints, the mindset of creating products, of launching [tings], notice I said "tings," not "things." Those are the same tings you need to be successful in the non-profit world, opening a small business. I was so proud when we were at eBay with the UX designers, and we have super-exclusive events. We're at Twitter, Salesforce, Google, Google.org every Wednesday. They're in the tech world, and these professionals ask, "What do you want to do after this apprenticeship?"I'm so happy to say 80% are like, "Do my own ting. Help our community." That's the answer I want, right? We're using tech as an educational platform, as a learning platform, to get those skills to game up, to level up, but the goal for us is how do we give back to our communities? Tech for good. Oakland Digital. Holla.Ali Nazar:Wow. Wow. So much going on there, what you just said, and really impressive how it's come from that. You founded it with passion, with not necessarily the concrete of what the programs are going to be, and now you have so many different programs. I have a couple questions about that. One is, in a cohort of, what is it? 70 or so students-Shaun Tai:Yeah.Ali Nazar:... and they're getting to be up on billboards, and whatnot, where's the funding sources coming for the non-profit right now? Is it all through, is it earned income from you guys selling services?Shaun Tai:Yeah, and I actually, I want to touch upon that, for anyone listening. What I hear from students a lot is, "I want a work-life balance." That's one. The second thing is, "I want to start my own business." My honest answer is, "If you want a work-life balance, do not start your own company." I want to make that very clear.Ali Nazar:[crosstalk].Shaun Tai:If you want a work-life balance, do not start your own company. Work for someone, go there at 10:00, go home at 5:00. You know what? Props to anyone that wants to do that. But just don't get it twisted that you can do both. I think you need to make that decision early on in your career, not later.Ali Nazar:[crosstalk].Shaun Tai:If you are ... How do you feel about that, brother?Ali Nazar:Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. You can't have everything. They're all good things, but some of them are mutually exclusive. That's what you're saying, and I agree.Shaun Tai:Absolutely. I'll start there, and I will say that for the first three, four years at Oakland Digital, I received zero dollars. I had a six-month gig at Facebook. I had a five-year gig doing marketing for the former Chief of Science at Amazon. Shout-out to Andreas Weigend, who teaches at Berkeley. I had all of these part-time jobs to pay the bills, but I realized that if I don't give up everything for one, I'll be good at few things, terrible at most of them, and not really great at one. Right?I found that what's the one that I would call my baby? I was like, "That's OD. Oakland Digital." What happened was, I dumped everything, kept OD, and that next year, which was 2015, Google funded us. To your point, Google.org funded Oakland Digital, because they saw us as one of the only groups in the Bay Area really using tech in creativity to empower overlooked talent, specifically communities of color. I was really proud that Google saw that vision.When we got that three-year grant from Google.org, shout-out to Justin, Adrian, [inaudible], and Chelsea. They saw that we were talented. We were raw. We were grassroots. We were making an impact, but we just needed some funding to make big tings happen. The question that we were addressing that they wanted to fund, the solution, was Bridgegood.com. It's a platform called BridgeGood, that connects talent to amazing opportunities.Right now, if you're an artist, you don't have an online portfolio, you can go to Bridgegood.com, you sign up. By the way, we don't sell your data. We're not making profit. It's a completely not-for-profit platform. You can sign up, get a free portfolio. You can attend VIP events, including working out of Google every Wednesday, going to cool places like LinkedIn, design studios, even small businesses. That's the way that we wanted to scale Oakland Digital, in a very organic way, because everything that you sign up for, we'll be there. We'll also introduce you to some key connects. That's our biggest funding partner, is Google.org, but I would say the majority of our funding, in terms of year-round, is just ordinary people. Like, "Yo, I just saw your bus ad. I think it's dope. How do I make a contribution?" Things like $50. $100.Another thing I'll say is, if you're trying to start a non-profit to make a living, or get money, I would also say don't do that. It's not necessarily rewarding financially, and I would say do it because you actually care about that, the mission, the impact. The non-profit world is equally as cutthroat as the business world. Everyone's fighting over the same funding. I just happened to be very lucky to have an amazing team around me that really cares deeply about the art community, but also about successful designers, and really getting involved in the tech world in a meaningful way. When I say "successful designers," I mean "making money from doing something you love," right? We all say that. We all hear it. But it is possible, but you do need to feel uncomfortable in the sense that you might hate tech. In the Bay, a lot of people do, but you still need to understand it, explore it, and break it down. Right? You don't want to just be ignorant towards it. You want to actually understand it, and see what makes it tick. Because we can take those same concepts and make non-profits blow up. I think that Oakland Digital is one of those examples of how do we use tech for good, and utilize those resources? Not just money, but talent, too. We have a lot of volunteers from the tech world. And give back to the community in real, deep, meaningful ways?Ali Nazar:Wow, so that's awesome that you guys had Google as a benefactor, and I'm sure not just the money that they gave you, but the other doors that are opened are plentiful. We're speaking with Shaun Tai, he's Founder and Executive Director of Oakland Digital, right here on Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley.Give us a little bit of a taste of what is the scope of it now? You went on this journey, it sounds like, almost 10 years ago.Shaun Tai:Yeah.Ali Nazar:How many employees? How many students have you had? Give me some of the breadth of this thing.Shaun Tai:Yeah, no. One of the things that I learned about the non-profit world, I sit on the grants panel for the Cultural Arts Program, and we just distribute money to artists, and we distribute money to non-profits. Last year, so I've been doing it two years in a row, for the City of Oakland. I've been noticing how much non-profits are struggling. A lot of the non-profits were in debt. What I noticed was non-profits are paying staff full salaries, because they should get paid full salaries. However, it's hurting their impact, right? Let me give you an example. Those four years that we were figuring out what we were doing, and making an impact, I don't think I deserved pay at that time, because I was still learning, right? I think that it's keeping that lean, agile methodology of how do you run as lean as possible, with as much impact as possible? I feel that the non-profit world needs a shake-up to think that way. Because if non-profits are just, quite honestly, fundraising to pay staff, that doesn't equate to community impact. You know what I'm saying?Ali Nazar:Yep.Shaun Tai:I don't have the answer, other than what I said earlier about "How do we take some of the things that start-ups do?" Right? Contractors, and paying people per-project. Compensating them what they're worth, but maybe on a contract or project basis, to get goals accomplished, right? And build some cool products, launch some cool things, the same way a start-up would do in the tech world.That, to me, I think that mindset, the growth mindset, is what the non-profit world may be lacking right now. But I do see things improving. I do see non-profits using design-thinking methodologies, and design sprints, and things that we in the tech world normally do to launch cool stuff.One example is, on BridgeGood, we actually give our students the experience of working with engineers and becoming UX designers by working on the platform itself. They gain, because they don't have to spend $15,000 for a boot camp, and they have a portfolio piece that's actually tangible. That's a way where both sides can win, right? The student can gain experience, build a cool platform, but at the same time, they can build their own career, and impact the community.Long story short, I think the non-profit world just needs to rethink how they spend money. Rethink, this is a good example, when we as non-profits apply for a government grant, which we don't even do that, you're tied in. Let's say you get a $1 million grant. Sometimes, you'll be doing more work than that $1 million, in terms of you'll run out of money. I've seen non-profits go under that way.How do we just rethink non-profits? How do we rethink and re-imagine the way non-profits run? Grants? Grant cycles, you're applying for a grant a year in advance. I don't know about you, brother, but every month for us changes. Do you know what I'm saying?Ali Nazar:Yeah, I mean-Shaun Tai:How can you apply a year in advance? These are the things that, about the non-profit world have, these confuse me. I don't understand why they do things the way they've been doing them for 100 years, when society's changed.Ali Nazar:Yeah, I think you're right on to something there. I have participated in the non-profit world, as well. That's why I asked the question around earned income, because that's ultimately what gets you sustainability as an organization, is that you don't have to rely on anybody else.Shaun Tai:Right.Ali Nazar:But you guys are in an interesting position, because you do have a product or a service you can provide, but monetizing that's a different question. It's a very challenging, I think, question, and one that I think many people are trying to answer right now.Shaun Tai:Right, and so, the impact that we've generated from BridgeGood is, we have a calculation of how do students get a job in design and/or tech? We've boiled it down to these three things: education, whether it's a BA or an AA. Two, some sort of apprenticeship or internship, and then help with their resume or portfolio. The portfolio is like 90% of getting a job in design. We figure if we can help a student build all four of those, it's a 90% likelihood that they'll get employed in some entry-level design position. What is the impact of that, right? Times, right now, we have 5,000 users on BridgeGood. We calculated roughly 300 have obtained some type of entry-level work. That times between 20,000 and 30,000, that's a lot of impact. But now to your point about-Ali Nazar:[crosstalk].Shaun Tai:Yeah, I know. It's super dope. It's super dope. When we just did a study of going back seven years on LinkedIn, of all of the students that have been through our program. We've had people get jobs at Yahoo!, Apple, YouTube, local non-profits, which I was super happy to see. That's really the impact. There's no quick solve.I mean, think about your career, right? You're like, "I've been in this for eight years." You and I, we're kind of a rare breed, where I think people growing up now, they just expect jobs right away. If there's one thing that I have learned, there's no free handouts. You've got to pay your dues. I feel-Ali Nazar:Wow. Shaun, I ... Sorry. Go ahead.Shaun Tai:Yeah. Nah, nah. I just feel like that's what we've got to get organizations to understand. Be committed. Stay committed, and keep doing things for good.Ali Nazar:Yeah, and I think following your passion, which you've certainly done. Oakland Digital is a great asset to the community. We have about a minute left, and I always like to close organizational founders, like you, with the same question. If everything went perfectly for Oakland Digital over the next five years, where will it be?Shaun Tai:Yeah, where would we be? We'd have a 15,000 square-foot building, with the ground space leased out, for some revenue. Then we would have a designer residence program, where we could facilitate, and make sure that the artists going through our program would actually be employed. 100%. 100% success rate, and really seeing the whole Bay Area respect artistry and creativity. Also, also be the Mecca of non-profits for the rest of the world. To be like, "Yo, the Bay Area has the best non-profits. BridgeGood Oakland Digital. Holla."Ali Nazar:Nice. Nice. All right. I'm so behind that. It's very interesting, also, that you added real estate to that vision, because it's like with-Shaun Tai:You've got to.Ali Nazar:... the housing costs the way they are, non-profits have to own a piece of the land, or else they're not going to be able to survive. [crosstalk]-Shaun Tai:I'm telling you, brother. I'm telling you brother, hey, and I appreciate what you're doing, because a lot of people behind-the-scenes do not get that credit. Thank you for what you're doing for the community. Let's keep pushing this, inspire the Bay Area together, man. Let's do it.Ali Nazar:Thanks, Shaun. Well, you've been listening to Shaun Tai. He's the Executive Director of Oakland Digital. To learn more about them, you can go to oaklanddigital.org. Any other ways to contact you, Shaun?Shaun Tai:Bridgegood.com. If you want to get a free portfolio and kick it, we can hang out. Let's do it.Ali Nazar:Cool, okay. That's how you get ahold of Shaun. This has been Method to the Madness on KALX Berkeley, 90.7 FM. I'm your host, Ali Nazar. Thanks for listening, everybody, and have a great Friday.Shaun Tai:Peace. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Is social media harming us? Dr. King, the Director of Consumer Privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School, discusses what is wrong with the current internet algorithms, unseen manipulation, and behavior modification techniques.Transcript:Lisa:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Jennifer King. She's the director of consumer privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School. We'll be talking about the problems with social media today. Welcome to the program, Jennifer. Jennifer:Thank you. Lisa:You've recently gotten a new job at Stanford Law School. Can you first of all tell us what you're doing down there? Jennifer:Yes. I just graduated my PhD back here at Berkeley. Lisa:In what?Jennifer:Information science. At Stanford, I am the director of consumer privacy at the the Center for Law and Society at Stanford Law School.Lisa:You just started though.Jennifer:At Stanford, yes. I started in April before I graduated. Lisa:Last week, I had an interesting conversation with Jaron Lanier, who just wrote a book called Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now. I thought I'd have you on the show to talk about some of the ideas that we talked about since that is your area. Everybody knows there's something wrong right now in our society. Journalism is failing. Politics is failing. People are afraid they're losing their jobs to AI. Whether they are or not, they're afraid of it. There's a lot of social anxiety. What do you see as the problem with social media or do you?Jennifer:With social media specifically? Because there's a lot there. I think one of the challenges with social media is that it de-individuates us or it takes us away from our humanity to some extent. It's the same way when you're driving in a car and there's that object between you and the rest of the world and you might be a totally reasonable person in real life and then you get behind the wheel and you get road rage or you just find that you treat people more like objects than other people. When you communicate with people through a computer, it's that same object between you and them. I think it prevents us in some ways from connecting with people. Lisa:There's a lot of research now that backs up, especially with young people, that there is more anxiety, there's more sadness. I don't know exactly how they're measuring sadness but that people are acting out differently, particularly young people, which is scary. I think we need to re-examine Google and Facebook and others. Some aren't in the business of behavior modification, but the business model, it's not that the people behind it personally are doing this, but the business model they've created with machine language literally takes us on a downward path. It's not left or right. It's actually down because the algorithm support and make money off of negative emotions. Jennifer:Sure. I've worked in Silicon Valley, and I can tell you having been-Lisa:Who did you work for?Jennifer:I worked for Yahoo. I worked for other startups too, but I worked for Yahoo back in the early 2000s, and was part of not directly developing social media software that was part of that scene, you could call it in the Bay Area back around 2000-plus where I was part of those social networks that emerged during that time. I think we were all very optimistic, and there wasn't a lot of thought about what the consequences were of any of these things people made. It was mostly like, let's just try this and see what happens. I think at first, there was an optimism driving it. We're doing this because let's see what happens. It could be really interesting. I think that shifted. It shifted over time from that to let's do this and maybe we'll get acquired by somebody to now let's do this and see how much personal data we can potentially mine from this product and from these people using it. Part of that is the consequence of building this entire infrastructure off the idea that it's free and not making people pay for it. I think the other piece of it too is that most of the people in this space, I would argue, are not thinking about what these products would do or these services would do to kids. It was one thing to put a lot of this in the hands of people who already had a solid footing on what it meant to talk to people in reality. We didn't grow up with phones and we barely grew up with computers, many of us, and so we had a foundation for what it meant to interact with people. Now suddenly, you have kids who've grown up immersed in this technology and it's shifted to where it's almost as if they don't know how to interact with each other. Lisa:Right. It's a big intermediary for them. Jennifer:Yeah. Professor Sherry Turkle has written extensively on this. I think she's done some of the best research on it. Lisa:Where is she?Jennifer:She's at MIT, and she's published several books in this area and that's where I'm drawing some of my own insight. Lisa:It's an unfortunate collision of math and human biology. Jennifer:Yeah. I would say, too, part of the challenge is that being a technologist has suddenly brought with it a lot of power in the society. We don't educate technologists to think about other people. If you are a Berkeley or a Stanford computer science student, for the most part, I don't believe you even had to take any ethics requirements in the past. I know that's changing, but you've been able to tinker with this giant social experiment without necessarily having any education or training or having been challenged to really think about the consequences of your actions on other people. It's mostly just been a chase to see what cool thing can we make next. I think we're seeing the consequences of that.Lisa:We are. There seems to be a groundswell now of people, at least researchers, academicians, economists, who are now looking at all of this behavior modification and the implications. They're also looking at data as labor instead of data as capital because for the first time ever, I think there are just a few people who own these big, what Jaron Lanier called siren servers, and they're making money on everybody else. There's only one buyer and multiple sellers of information so it's a monopsony. Jennifer:Yes, a very hard word to say. Lisa:Yes. I want to talk about that, all of the data that's been pulled from us with our knowledge and without our knowledge. Jennifer:That's a tough one because from my perspective, I study privacy and I study people. I try to understand how information privacy, how people think about it, what they care about. I'm willing to bet that most of us have figurative piles of digital photos hanging out either on our personal computers, on our phones, and managing all those things is really hard. I don't think I know anybody who actually has a grip on the number of photos they take. Lisa:I don't even look at them anymore. Jennifer:Right. I think you can extend that to your own data. We talk about a lot about we want to give people more control and we want to put them in control. If we could just somehow get our hands on this ephemeral data, then it will be okay. My skepticism with that just comes from the fact that it's such an information overload that it's possible we could build an infrastructure that makes it easy for people or at least easier. Right now, I think the push to get people's hands on the data isn't going to necessarily have the effect we want it to or that we might be hoping it will. I think there are good reasons for making the companies open up their platforms that have to do with issues of power and control and just trying to force a level of openness that doesn't exist presently. Whether that ends up with empowering people individually because they can actually see what data is collected about them, I'm a little bit skeptical of that actually.Lisa:What about data? People talk about universal basic income, but now people are talking about you've gotten these companies rich off of all this data and with your consent. You've given this away, but now-Jennifer:Kind of your consent. Lisa:Yeah. There are people, groups like datavest and researchers. Even at Stanford, they're looking at the idea of monetizing your data so that in place of a universal basic income, someday you might get every month a certain amount of money in return for the barter that you've given away your private life. Jennifer:Not to wallow in trendy technologies right now, but I think we've ... I don't know if your listeners or if you've talked so much about blockchain. Lisa:Oh yeah, I've had people on here actually from the UC Berkeley blockchain group. Jennifer:Great. I don't know if blockchain is the answer to that problem, but it seemingly could potentially be an answer to the data management piece. Every proposal I've seen in this vein has (a) put the burden on the individual to manage it in a way that I don't think most people want to do. You can't manage your photos. You don't also probably want to manage your personal data on a day-to-day basis. Lisa:Exactly.Jennifer:I don't even balance my checking account anymore. I just ... What has to give? I have to say I don't know too much about the blockchain proposal insofar as I have seen it voiced as a potential solution for this distributed data management problem. Lisa:It seems to me that if Facebook and Google were smart, they would get off this business model that's on a downward anyway because it's going to implode. You can't take data as capital forever. If they would say, okay, we realize what we're doing and now we're going to turn around and give you back something, they'll probably never do that because their business model, they make too much money. There are groups like of datavest. They propose a co-op organization where they are the intermediary between the big computer monsters that they're leasing to do this complex mathematical, but blockchain would be part of that probably, keeping accounting records and-Jennifer:Right. Making it manageable for end users, for individuals. I think that the challenge is that right now in some ways, collecting data is more valuable than it potentially has been before because companies are using this to feed their AI systems. It's a big training base. Given how much focus right now is on AI and improving those systems ... As an information scientist, I can tell you that you need data to train those systems to improve them. Lisa:Like language translation. Jennifer:Absolutely.Lisa:You need real people. They're grabbing real people's translations in order to make the Google Translate work better. Jennifer:Which I think is actually a really excellent example of this being used for good in a sense.Lisa:It is, but what about the jobs of human translators? At some point, there's real no artificial intelligence right now, but at some point when perhaps there is, they won't have a job anymore. Jennifer:Well, I don't know if it necessarily obviates all human translators, but I will tell you I was in Mexico last year. I wasn't going to hire a translator to go with me from place to place to place, but Google Translate was really helpful for trying to talk to a cab driver because my Spanish is terrible. Lisa:I agree with you there, but let's pay those human translators for that data. Jennifer:Sure. Yeah. Just to go back to that thought though. One of the reasons why I don't think you'll see the recognition by the companies that this could be a downward slope right now is because right now as they're trying to improve their consumer AI systems, there is probably a fanatical need or desire for as much data as you can get. Given that, I think if you want to see the changes you're talking about, it will probably emerge through civil society and other groups putting together proposals and pushing it. I think you'll have to see it from a government side ultimately. I don't know if you'll see it in this country. Lisa:There does have to be some oversight. I don't know. I feel like this problem is so urgent right now. When you look at the Annapolis shootings, which some people are saying were triggered by trolls online, and that could be misinformation. It's hard to find the truth that is hurting our society. Also with journalism, I use that as an example a lot because they missed the Trump election. They missed the recent Brooklyn, the young woman who beat out the stronghold Democrat challenger. That was completely missed. What's going on? They can't afford investigative journalists. Most organizations can't anymore, so finding out the truth is really difficult. I think that's changing us. In so many ways, it's making us more siloed. We don't know what red states are thinking because we only see what the algorithms want us to see. It's creating this bifurcated society. In fact, it turns out a lot of technologists send their kids to Waldorf schools and Montessori schools because they're worried about this. Jennifer:I don't let my kids use a lot of technology. Lisa:You don't? Why?Jennifer:Well, I guess to go back full circle to the social media piece. Again, I think using social media is a different experience for those of us who have developed the skill in her personal communication and relationships in person and that it's a much different equation when you're talking about kids. It used to be that the internet was connecting us across space, and now we're seeing it used in a very hyper local way when it used to connect people who were sitting right next to each other. That's a very different vision, I think, than where we started from, and I don't think we've thought so much about what that means for the people inhabiting that space together. Certainly with teenagers, you see it in terms of the competition it fosters for I want the best Instagram photo. I would say it's a double ... two big parts to it. One of it is parents saying something, I mean really being involved and understanding what their kids are doing, which I realize is not always easy, especially if you're not particularly tech literate. I'm just, as a parent, I'm often amazed how many small children I see who are just given phones and parents are ignoring them and they're just going on and on and on. It just amazes me. There's definitely been greater calls to tech companies to really start thinking more about the implications of what they're doing, not only on this, but a lot of parts of their work across society. I think that the types of restrictions we have on phones, for example, are in their infancy. We could do a lot more in terms of thinking through like what's an appropriate set of parental controls you can put on a phone? For example, to get to meter kids' usage so you can teach them, bound it, like this is what it means to be on your phone for 20 minutes and when the 20 minutes are up, you're done. You're locked out.Lisa:They can get around that stuff though. They're going to be so much more tech savvy than you or I.Jennifer:I have younger kids, so I'm still-Lisa:They'll just hack your restrictions. Jennifer:I'm still biased towards the fact that I can take the thing away from my five-year-old versus having a 15-year-old with a phone, which I realize is different.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today, I'm speaking with Dr. Jennifer King. She's the director of consumer privacy at the Center for Internet and Society at Stanford Law School. Well, I wanted to ask you about your new job at Stanford Law School. California just passed this pretty intense data privacy law. It isn't as restrictive as Europe, but can you talk about that and explain what's going on to our listeners? Jennifer:The law that was just passed was the result of we'll say panic by the tech sector with the upcoming ballot initiative that was to appear on the ballot in November. There was a ballot initiative or it was placed on the ballot that would have had placed some more restrictions on privacy with respect to tech companies. Some of the provisions in the ballot measure ended up in this final bill but not all of them. When I looked at this bill, again I'm not a lawyer so that's my disclaimer for my own analysis, but one of the things I actually was frustrated by, which I don't know if we'll see addressed ultimately because a lot of the talk last week was around the fact that doesn't go into effect until 2020 so we may see amendments to it. It was that it doesn't place any limits on the collection of data nor on the reselling of it. It gives consumers a little bit more power than they had before, but I'm actually fairly disappointed with the outcome of that bill because I don't think it really does much beyond allowing you to say, hey, don't sell my data. A lot of the big companies that we've been concerned about actually aren't selling your data to begin with. They're collecting it, and they're selling access to it, and that doesn't change at all under this bill. It doesn't curb some of the, I think, the worst cases we see of data being collected without your explicit consent. It does nothing about that consent issue. If you download a free app for a smartphone and the app developer is using a third party advertising service that serves ads in the app, that service is collecting data from your phone about your usage as you're using it. The same with any website that you're not blocking third party cookies or third party ad trackers on, if you're using a regular computer and a browser, those ad services are also collecting data from you or from your browser experience. This bill doesn't really do anything to curb that. Lisa:Does it do anything about the cameras on your phones and computers that are looking at your facial expressions and that goes into the machine language algorithm as well, the listening that goes on with your devices?Jennifer:Yes, you have devices in your pocket that can listen to you and can take your picture. Certainly the way they get consent from you is often not clear. Lisa:Most of the time, you don't read the consent anyway on these sites that you go to. Jennifer:However, it is against the law for them to be surveilling you without you having consented. At the same time, you might be using a service that wants to capture your voice as part of what it does, so take a smart speaker, for example. That's an area I've been looking at a bit lately.Lisa:Like the Alexis and Siri.Jennifer:Right. They're voice activated. They need to listen to you. For how long and what it records and the duration and what it does with that recording is an interesting question, but that is the essence of a smart speaker so you do have to let it capture your voice. It's just a question of then what happens to that data. Lisa:In your capacity, in your new job, what are the problems you're trying to solve in the near term? Jennifer:My job is research focused, so part of it is about the type of research that I am looking to do. Because I just graduated with my PhD, some of it is about publishing my own dissertation work.Lisa:Which was on what?Jennifer:Privacy. I don't think I want to go into the details. It's a long and complicated thing. Lisa:It's private.Jennifer:It's not private, but I think it would bore a lot of people. Some of the issues that I've been interested in exploring in this new role are genetic privacy. Actually, a part of my dissertation research was on 23andMe users. I was very interested in looking at-Lisa:What they do with that information?Jennifer:Yeah. Also just people's expectations around it and what motivates them to have their DNA sequenced and what happens to your DNA after you give it to a service like that. That's an area I've been interested in looking at, as well as emotional privacy because I think one of the things that's been a side effect of Facebook and Cambridge Analytica and something I saw in my own work is that people often get the most concerned about their privacy when it comes to data about them that really gets to who they think they are. By that, I mean it's one thing for a credit reporting company to collect your address and your credit history. That's important information and, of course, we're upset if it gets breached. Your sense of privacy around it I think is different than, for example, another piece of my dissertation research was looking at people's search queries. One of the things I found was that actually of the people I looked at, I asked these 23andMe users about their genetic data as compared to their search queries. Most of them were far more concerned about the content of their search queries than about their DNA. That was mostly because they felt like their DNA, sure, it identifies you uniquely, but they felt like it didn't tell people about them. The way that if you looked at five years of your search queries, your unfiltered search queries, that could tell you much more about who they are, what they're thinking about, what they care about. Lisa:That's interesting. Maybe because search queries are free, but the 23andMe, you have to pay to join that service. I've done it, so I know there's a certain fee. With that fee structure, maybe that makes people think, oh well, data is private. It's not going to be-Jennifer:The question of paying for it, yes and no. Yes, it definitely ... When people pay for something, what I've observed is that there are definitely more expectations around I paid for this, so they better not sell my data or at least I hope they won't. With free services, there's also an expectation of privacy. It's not as if most people use something like Google search and assume that their search queries are going to be used in a multitude of different ways against them or released to the public. People had privacy expectations in that data even if it was [crosstalk].Lisa:That's important to talk about.Jennifer:What Cambridge Analytica and Facebook has also shown us is the power of the emotional data, which is something I'm also trying to focus on because I think that's the next frontier. I think it's the next frontier in terms of the types of data we're going to try to let's say extract from people. There are people focusing on emotion recognition as a way to improve different experiences, technological experiences. I, of course, being a skeptic, I'm always skeptical leading into these things, so I'm really curious to keep an eye on companies that are doing emotion detection and see where that goes in terms of the next type of data we've been collecting about people would be your emotional state. There's lots of research into computer mediated communication that charts basically all of this. The research is there. You just have to know where to look for it and put it into play. Lisa:Maybe we should start educating people at a very early age, like elementary school about privacy. Is that something-Jennifer:You can talk to my rising fourth grader.Lisa:Have you thought about that? We need to institute this in schools if we're going to-Jennifer:Yeah, there are definitely people in the privacy research field who have worked on curriculum for at least high school students. I agree that it should go probably at least middle school and maybe the fifth grade, fourth grade, fifth grade level. There are definitely people working on that. How widely distributed that curriculum gets, I think that's the challenge. It'd be nice if California as a state did something with it rather than it just being a one-off one teacher in one school being interested in that issue. Going back to the genetic data piece and the search query piece. One of the things though that is really interesting about the genetic data area is the fact that a lot of what you're doing with that is sharing it with other people in the service. Whether that's looking for relatives or with 23andMe, you can share it with the company for their development or for their research purposes. One of the things I thought was really interesting about the people I talked to who used it was how much they were motivated by that sharing, the research sharing with the expectation that, hey, if my data is used to develop a new drug that can help the world, great.I'm a skeptic so my counterpoint was, sure, it could be used, but it might be used to develop a drug that then their pharmaceutical partner charges $50,000 a dose for. There's no-Lisa:Right, or that you get absolutely nothing for-Jennifer:Right. You don't get anything from it monetarily. That's another interesting area of people willingly contributing their data to a private database for private development with no guarantees that there'll be a public benefit from it. Lisa:I really think we need to innovate that business model and return, in some way monetize this data that is benefiting a few people. You look at Facebook. 60% of it is owned by Mark Zuckerberg. They don't have that many employees. It needs to be more democratized. Jennifer:Well, I would argue. I was reading something recently online that was asking four notable internet theorists about basically what went wrong. It got me thinking about like what would I do? What would I have changed about the last 25 years? I think that going back to the mid to late '90s, there was a real ... The drum beat from Silicon Valley as much as it was an internet business at that point was very much like leave us alone. Don't regulate us in any way. Don't crush the internet. Let it blossom. Let it grow. There was pretty much a total hands-off approach with a couple of small exceptions along the way. I think if I went back in time, the thing I would change is not necessarily regulating, but I think making this expectation that there needed to be a public benefit. I don't know how I would do that, to be honest, if it's that the companies needed to ... Actually, I think maybe not a bad model would be looking back at radio and the development of radio and the fact that you used to have the fairness doctrine and public service announcements. There was this explicit recognition that the radio waves were a public resource and that they would lease them to private broadcasters, but there had to be some public benefit that they gave back. I wish we could have made that more explicit in the development of the internet.Lisa:Some people think what went wrong is that it was free, that if we would have had to pay just a nominal amount of money for the right to browse or whatever, we wouldn't be dealing with all the advertising and behavior modification and so on. Jennifer:I was interviewed recently by some undergraduates at Stanford, and they asked me some pretty challenging questions that I had to stop and think about it too. Part of it was like, why do you do this? Why are you interested in this stuff? Given how many bad things feel like they're happening today, it's a real challenge to think about why are we doing this? Why am I involved in technology? Why don't I just run away and do something else? I think because there have been some real positive changes, despite all of the negative ones. I guess at the end of the day, I feel like it's not worth giving up on it at this point. Not that we even could, but I think that we let industry drive everything for the last 25 years. I think what you're seeing is a real recognition by people that they have to take this back into their own hands to some extent, both in terms of how they're being used and their data and just the power these large companies have to shape society in a way that I think people are really recoiling from. How we do that, I think some of the things we've talked about today are some of the hints that people collectively getting together and thinking about what can we do to shift the power balance. I think it is important to remember that this technology gives you a lot. There's a lot of things. I think if you asked us, would we go back to 1995 and give up some of the things we have now such as your ability to use a map online or a map on a phone? I think that's a pretty powerful tool.Lisa:[crosstalk] from your child at school. Jennifer:Right. I always joke when I first got a cellphone, the first thing, I was living in Hawaii, the first thing I did was went to the beach and called people back in California going, "I'm calling you from the beach."Lisa:It's not the internet. It's not the technology that's a problem, I think. It's the-Jennifer:It's the people.Lisa:The behavior modification algorithms. I think it's just we need to change the model. We're not going to get rid of the technology, but make it better, like you say. I think that's wonderful. It's a good goal. You have a lot of work ahead of you. Jennifer:Yeah. I can't retire anytime soon. Lisa:I'd like to have you back on at some point and once you've been in this role for quite a while and see what you're thinking then.Jennifer:Yeah. Lisa:You've been listening to Method to the Madness. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Oakland entrepreneur Jessica Gray Schipp shares her life's journey of coping with multiple food allergies and her book #AllergicToEverything, a cookbook and guide for people living with multiple food allergies.Transcript:Lisa:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm speaking with Jessica Gray Schipp. She's the author of a new cookbook and guide for people suffering from multiple food allergies.Welcome to the program, Jessica.Jessica:Thank you.Lisa:You just wrote this book called Allergic to Everything, which is an incredible guide and a cookbook for people with allergies. Are you allergic to everything?Jessica:I'm allergic to several things. It's called #Allergic to Everything and I am allergic to wheat, gluten, corn, soy, oats, eggs, shellfish, and possibly sesame.Lisa:You've been through a lot.Jessica:Yes.Lisa:This has taken decades to put this together. How did you figure out what to do first? Tell us your life's journey.Jessica:Well, I knew I was lowered to shellfish when I was a little kid. I was about six and I had an anaphylactic reaction and that was really scary, so I kind of grew up conscious of what it was like to have that happen. And then when I was in my, I would say like mid-twenties, I started getting a lot of hives and odd reactions that I didn't know what it was.Lisa:And this is out east?Jessica:And this is on the East Coast, yeah. And I was just going to literally every type of doctor that I could think of. My mom's a nurse practitioner, so she was sending me to like specialists and using her network and my body just slowly got worse and worse and worse. And then I ended up in Bloomington, Indiana with a friend from grad school and I arrived on her doorstep and I essentially looked like I was just dead. I had sties, I had hives everywhere and I didn't even know kind of how sick I was because I was so used to living that way.But she forced me to a doctor and they were basically like-Lisa:That was the first time you'd seen a doctor about it?Jessica:No, I had been seeing specialists but nobody identified it as food allergies and they didn't really know. So they just kept throwing me on steroids and different medications. And finally at that point in Bloomington, I was just in a place of I'm either dying of cancer or I have food allergies and I have to see what I can do. So I moved back home at that point and I did an elimination diet using all of these different tests I had gotten done with the food stuff because I was basically everything I reacted to. And I think that's also because my system was so hyperactive because it was so irritated all the time that it was triggering responses to more than what I really-Lisa:What does that mean? Elimination Diet? Because you talk about that and you also talk about the symptom tracker that you put together, which is also in the book.Jessica:Well I would say the elimination diet, I didn't start doing it with a symptom tracker. The one that's in the book is kind of a design that I came up with from trial and error and my experiences and what worked for me. I initially used something called a health minder, which I had found on Amazon and it was awesome, but it didn't quite track everything I wanted it to, so I've kind of made my own model.But in terms of the elimination diet, I did that without tracking initially. You basically, a lot of people start with removing the top eight food allergens.Lisa:And what are those?Jessica:Those are wheat, eggs, milk, fish, shellfish, nuts and peanuts.Lisa:Not corn?Jessica:No, corn's not one of the top eight, but I guarantee you this is my philosophy actually because we're shoving it in so much of the food.Lisa:Exactly.Jessica:I'm almost positive that when they revamped that topic eight, that that's going to end up on there [crosstalk]Lisa:I grew up in the Midwest and one of the things I noticed was the simultaneous rise of obesity and GMO corn farming.Jessica:No kidding. No kidding.Lisa:Even though no one is pinpointing that.Jessica:Yeah, and it's cheap.Lisa:Why do you think that's been left off the top?Jessica:I think that just not... I don't know. I think there's not a lot of money in research right now for food allergies. There aren't even really very reliable tests that have been developed. Everything does a lot of false positives. So it's really weird, which going back to the elimination diet, that's really the best way to determine what's triggering things.Lisa:It's very time consuming though, isn't it?Jessica:It's very time consuming. Yeah. Yeah. The process of writing the book took about six years, but the process of getting through the elimination phase and starting to learn about foods probably took like three months but a good year of getting used to it because at first I was just eating a piece of cheese or string cheese, just really basic foods like seed crackers, just nuts, like very plain stuff. And then after I got comfortable with that, I was able to expand and start trying to figure out how to cook the foods that I really missed because there's a lot to be missed when you have to take so much out.Lisa:So when you say "cook the foods you missed," coming up with recipes that would taste somewhat like them because you're not using the ingredients and that they've done in this book.Jessica:Yes. Yeah, so it's really a book of kind of comfort food and super holiday friendly and things just like muffins and breads and pizza and pasta sauce and tacos and it's super kid friendly too, I would say. I think I just had this desire to go back to the foods that I had grown up with-Lisa:Comfort food.Jessica:And figure out... Yeah, exactly, and figure out how to go from there.Lisa:Backing up a little bit, you were in Indiana, you went to this doctor, you started the elimination diet and then?Jessica:And then it was a long process of kind of realizing that I had to start tracking certain things when I would have reactions because you're supposed to add one food back in at a time and then kind of wash yourself for up to basically three days, give or take. Because reactions can happen in many different ways. They can be on your skin, they can be in your digestive system, they can be instant or they can show up in three days. It's kind of a bizarre, bizarre world.Lisa:And the other thing is if you're social at all and you go out to eat at people's homes or in restaurants.Jessica:Yeah, don't trust anybody because nobody knows what they're talking about. And I love my friends and they are, some of them are really amazing and truly have an understanding and have memorized stuff and there are certain people that I really trust. But then there are other people who I know they intend well but they don't know that the shredded cheese that they're using happens to have corn starch on it to prohibit mold. And cornstarch really, really gets to me instantly. I get hives, which I hate. I hate when my symptoms show up on my body.Lisa:Well, in a way that's good because then you know pretty quickly something's wrong.Jessica:Right, that's true.Lisa:In the midst of this discovery. Where were you shopping?Jessica:I was in the Midwest at first and basically I went home pretty quickly after that. I went back to right outside of Washington, DC, in Arlington and I moved back in with my mom, which was hard because I had just gotten my master's and I thought I was going to go into the world rather than a retreat. But yeah, so I went home and my mom has always been very health conscious, so she... There's a little place called Mom's Organic Market and I think it's an Alexandria technically, but it's a great little like health food type of store. And I kind of stuck to stuff like that. And Trader Joe's for just basics, which I still love Trader Joe's today because they just offer so much of high quality stuff at amazing prices.My mom trained me in the organic produce selection and I kind of did like a little work trade. So I did their grocery shopping and did some cooking. And in exchange I got to kind of take some time. I had asthma as a kid. My mom kind of suspected that I had some corn allergies as a kid too because she kind of thought that I would get like fussy when I ate things with corn syrup in it. So there were periods where she suspected it, but nothing was identified until I was 27 when all of this kind of came together.Lisa:How did you get out here?Jessica:I eventually started looking for jobs and I'd kind of always dreamed of California and I found an AmeriCorps position working in East Oakland at a school and the whole idea was kind of like teaching creativity and putting creativity back into the classroom, which my undergrad was an art education so it was a really good fit and they give you a stipend to help you move across. So I ended up driving my little Honda Civic out here and it was pretty beautiful and incredible. And then I ended up, I thought I was coming to California and I was going to be this picturesque mountains and everything. And then I wound up like right in the middle of another city and it was kind of like what?Lisa:You mean like East Oakland?Jessica:Yeah. Being here has been the most incredible part of this journey. The food culture here is phenomenal. Really, you just have access to everythingLisa:People don't realize that unless they've lived elsewhere.Jessica:Yes.Lisa:Because if you're in the Midwest, you have to carve out time to find organic food.Jessica:Yes. Or those little co-ops. The co-ops are like the way to go.Lisa:The co-ops, they're usually near universities.Jessica:Totally. Yeah.Lisa:It's not easy.Jessica:No, no.Lisa:To find good food.Jessica:That's, yeah, 100% I agree with that. Yeah, and I guess that's been the blessing of being here is just that a whole... Like Berkeley Bowl and just a whole new world happened for me and I moved in with a bunch of foodies and learned a lot from them. And so all of these different things kind of came together.Lisa:And how did your allergies, did it improve here or...Jessica:Yeah. Yeah, it's been actually a drastic difference. I think the climate is better for me in some ways. So I think my skin in general has been a lot less irritated, but, but I think my quality of life has been better since moving out here. And I'm not sure exactly why.Lisa:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Oakland based entrepreneur, Jessica Gray Schipp, the author of a book called Allergic to Everything for people suffering from multiple food allergies.So tell me when you decided to write this book.Jessica:I didn't really specifically decide to write it at first, I just started writing down the recipes that were working for me and I had a little notebook. I've always, you can see my journal here, I always have a journal. And so I just kind of started writing down what was working and I had some friends over for dinner and my friend Phil had asked me like, "What is that recipe? How did you do that? I can't even tell it's allergen free," which was kind of this real goal of mine was to trick the people into thinking the food had all their allergens.But yeah, and he looked at the notebook and he was just like, "Jess, you should publish this." And I hadn't considered that and I didn't think of it that way. And then I kind of ran with it.Lisa:And then when you say "ran with it," what are the steps that you took?Jessica:Well, it was more of a jog because I was teaching full time. So I started in the summers when I had my summers off. The first summer I basically typed up this notebook and wound up with about, or I guess it took me two summers to do that, but I wound up with about 115 recipes that I developed. And then more recently, so in August, I actually left my teaching job to do this full time and try to give it a real stab. And I sat down and wrote the guide, which I didn't realize was going to be so lengthy but-Lisa:It's comprehensive. I really enjoyed that.Jessica:Thank you for saying that.Lisa:Well yeah, you...Jessica:Thank you for saying that.Lisa:Not only recipes but you list resources for people, you get into household cleaning substances, that you can make on your own. I was surprised how comprehensive. It's over 200 pages.Jessica:Thank you. Yeah-Lisa:And also what to put in a pantry.Jessica:Right? Like your staples and where to get them and how to do it and you can do it affordably and you can also spend a lot of money on this stuff. There's a million ways to do it. Yeah, and it was fascinating to kind of go in because I think before moving out to California, I hadn't started to consider what was in the products I was using on my skin, for example. I was using really sensitive simple lotions and stuff like that. But for hair-Lisa:But even laundry detergent.Jessica:Or laundry detergent, exactly.Lisa:And people use these softeners and they always smell.Jessica:And they're full of chemicals and it's gross stuff and it irritates sensitive skin even if you don't have allergens. So just kind of all of that stuff has gone into it. And then just simple things like reading ingredient labels.Lisa:Just today I read an article that the USDA, they just announced now that instead of saying whether something has GMO ingredients, genetically modified, now they are opting for bio-engineered or BE on products. Some people think it's to avoid the labeled GMO because that's kind of a bad thing.Jessica:It has a stigma.Lisa:But it also allows companies to choose between the option of either writing out the warning saying, "This contains bio engineered food," include a just a BE label or this code that you have to swipe, which they assume most consumers will not do. It seems like it's a constant battle to get the true ingredients listed because...Jessica:Well, I want to comment on what you were just saying about the labeling of food. I think that that's one of the most frustrating things because you can slap all natural on it and it means absolutely nothing. They allow a lot of loopholes in this kind of stuff, which is why it's so important no matter what to flip the package over and actually read the ingredients.Lisa:Some of these ingredients, you look at them and you don't even know how to say them.Jessica:Well, and that's my rule. I have a 10 ingredient or less rule and you need to be able to pronounce all of them. The chemicals, it just, it's really unreal.Lisa:And this is mostly processed food.Jessica:It's mostly processed food, yeah, that has that.Lisa:So people who are shopping the middle aisles are going to see more of that.Jessica:Correct. Yeah. I'm a big a perimeter shopper now. I go into the middles for my brown rice pasta or some crackers.Lisa:Or olive oils.Jessica:Or olive oil, yeah, definitely loved my olive oil. I've been leaning into avocado oil too. That's-Lisa:And you talk about coconut being a good alternative to corn oils and things like that.Jessica:Yes. I think one of the interesting things was too with my skin, how irritated it was at the beginning of this journey. I started just trying to figure out natural things I could use to moisturize because normal lotion wasn't working. So coconut oil was something that was really, I was just like slathering it on. And it was really, really healing for me, which was interesting because a lot of doctors had told me to try these lotions with oats, which I hadn't realized at first that I was allergic too.There are also gluten free versions, but oats just in general give me a scarf rash. And so it was really weird and it was like making me more and more irritated. So then I started going backwards and doing just really simple like olive oil on my skin and it was amazing.Lisa:The difference.Jessica:And anti-inflammatory and yeah.Lisa:So tell me the difference between allergy and a simple intolerance.Jessica:It shows up differently in symptoms. Some things are more severe and tolerance is like your body and your system just can't handle it.Lisa:Is that worse than an allergy?Jessica:Yeah, because you're hurting yourself and you might not necessarily be aware. Like, if you continue, let's say you're a celiac and you're eating gluten, that can lead to huge complications where your digestive system just stops functioning on its own. There's all these thresholds. But I find all of those areas, like I go into it in the book but at the same time I find, I don't like all of the little narrow paths that they put with this. Like if a food doesn't work for you, I think it's good to stay away from it and find an alternative.Because people talk about food sensitivities and food intolerance and food allergy and what is the difference? And it's confusing but I think with intolerance is really your body won't tolerate it and you just have all these weird symptoms and you're used to living with them. So you go with it and you don't realize what's on the other side when you...Lisa:So it affects your mental health as well.Jessica:Yeah. Oh definitely. I think so hugely.Lisa:In your book, you lay out in a really nice way the daily symptom tracker also sort of a guide for the elimination diets. So this book is something somebody can actually start writing in right away.Jessica:Right.Lisa:Is that your copyrighted food tracker?Jessica:Yes.Lisa:It's not available yet?Jessica:No.Lisa:To the public. How did you finance publishing book? How are you doing it?Jessica:I took everything I had saved up from my teaching salary, which was challenging, and my Grandma Donna passed away a couple years ago and left me a little bit of money and I was going to use it for a business or an investment on a house and I decided to put it into this book because I just really believe in it. So I've put about $25,000 into getting to-Lisa:Of your own personal money.Jessica:Yeah, of my own money, into it now. And to finish the project, I decided to go onto Kickstarter and so the project is live now and it's live through June 17th at 11:11 PM.Lisa:And what are you trying to raise on Kickstarter?Jessica:$33,000.Lisa:And that'll take you to where you need to...Jessica:And that'll take me to where I need to be and to do it properly, to get the editing done and the printing, to mail out the rewards. Shipping is phenomenal when it comes to Kickstarter, which was a really interesting to learn.Lisa:What do you mean?Jessica:I would say about a third of that amount of money is what it costs to actually send the rewards to the backers. It adds up. And if you can do media mail for books, which is great, but if you add in-Lisa:What are your rewards for backers?Jessica:Currently we have the book. I have a dinner party option, so that's kind of low end, high end, and then in the middle there are gift sets so you can do like an apron gift set. I'm really, really big into aprons. I'm in love with them. I started sewing my own and then I just actually added a new reward, which I'm really excited about, which is a grocery tote but also a cooler. So it's kind of like bring it to the grocery store or to the picnic because I know you're carrying all your own food if you're allergic. And I'm trying to keep it really, really simple because it's really about the book at the root of it.Lisa:And how do people find out about a Kickstarter campaign?Jessica:I have a URL that is forwarding right now straight to the Kickstarter so people can go to hashtag, the word hashtag, and the word allergic together, hashtagallergic.com.Lisa:Not the symbol, the word?Jessica:No the word. Yeah, so hashtag written out, allergic written.com and it'll take you right there. But also if you're on Kickstarter you can just type in the word allergic or allergies and it should come right up.Lisa:And you also have a website?Jessica:Yes.Lisa:What is the link to that?Jessica:The website is allergictoeverything.life and on the website, this has been kind of a new experiment and I'm still playing around with it. At first it was a platform to share what was going on with the Kickstarter, but I've been working on starting a blog and sharing some recipes through there. So I don't have a huge collection, but it's something I'm going to keep growing so people can go on there for food, food tips, and I have all my favorite resources. I have recipes for my food allergy purse.Lisa:Do you ever list restaurants that might accommodate allergies in the Bay Area?Jessica:No, but that's something that I am really interested in doing actually. And I think that we live in such a friendly place for that. A couple of days ago, a woman from Toronto who has, that's kind of her mission in the food allergy world. She reviews places you can eat and she does profiles of people. So she did a profile of me and she really wanted to get into the places that you know you can eat and that are friendly. And I think that that's so important and I think we're really lucky on the West Coast to have such-Lisa:We are, but you made a point earlier that it was a good one. Even your friends, let's say someone decides they're going to have you over and you're allergic to allium, which is onions, garlic and all this stuff.Jessica:Right?Lisa:And they say, "There's nothing, I swear to you, there's nothing in this." And yet they use a canned broth.Jessica:Correct.Lisa:In a soup or a sauce, which is full of allium.Jessica:And probably maltodextrin.Lisa:And it doesn't say it on the label. It says "natural ingredients."Jessica:Right. That's the most unfair.Lisa:And so you can't get mad at people, but there needs to be a raising of awareness and that's something that you've done in this book.Jessica:Yeah. And I think that's my biggest motivation for all of this is... Well, it's really to make people's lives easier, learning how to navigate all these little intricacies, but awareness is so important because people just don't know and it's not their fault. It's just a matter of education and...Lisa:I just noticed there's more and more food allergies and I can't help but think that it's our air, it's our water, it's our soil. I don't know if anyone is looking at the root causes of this.Jessica:Yeah, I don't think many people are. I think there's a lot of people burying the root causes.Lisa:You don't mention it in your book either. But depending on where you come from, what you're exposed to.Jessica:One of the things that I think about a lot with that, which gets me a little crazy if I think about it too much, but is the fact that, so I'm able to eat meat, right? And let's say I want to eat a steak, but they're feeding that cow corn, which I'm allergic to.Lisa:GMO corn probably.Jessica:Yeah. So how does it affect me with the end product? And that's just something that is mind boggling and...Lisa:It is, but out here you can actually seek out a butcher that that gets meat from local people who they know what they're feeding the animals. But that's not true in most places.Jessica:Right, and most of the population doesn't have that luxury. And if they do, maybe they can't afford it. There's a lot of barriers to it, but I think it's a really systemic problem that needs to be looked at from the ground up. But when we keep coming up with these new, what did you say it was going to be, BE, on the package?Lisa:Yes, bio engineering.Jessica:And the natural ingredients.Lisa:It's deflecting.Jessica:It's deflecting. It's like the whole sugar thing in the 70s or whenever that whole epidemic started, but it's really incredible the lengths that companies go through to bury the truth from people and to just keep people uneducated.Lisa:Even sugar, it's not so easy in some places to find something made from natural sugar. It's either going to be genetically modified sugar beets or corn.Jessica:Yeah, and sugar is super inflammatory too, so it kind of all comes out the same in your system. But corn syrup, I really, I just really hate that stuff. I just feel like it's toxic and it's in everything.Lisa:What were your biggest challenges along the way or maybe surprises along the way as well in this whole process of getting this book out?Jessica:Well, I'm in the midst of the challenges right now. It's been really hard to connect with the community that I'm trying to connect with because there's a lot of barriers. So-Lisa:What are they?Jessica:I'm part of a lot of groups online for example with like food allergy communities. But I'm not allowed to post my project because it's seen as fundraising or an endorsement of a fundraising project. And same thing with every single organization that I've reached out to and I'm sending thirties of emails a day trying to get people to help me put this out there.So that's been the greatest challenge and the greatest barrier really. This isn't even about profit, it's just about getting it into the hands of people who need it, the hands of people who are struggling or just foodies who want to cook. Because really the book is... Anybody can use it. It's not, you by no means have to be allergic to appreciated.So connecting with people has been challenging and I feel like I've really had to prove myself in ways that have just been shocking to me. I didn't think I would have to beg food allergy people to see me as an authentic person just trying to put a resource out there.Lisa:Any positive surprises or challenges?Jessica:A lot of positive surprises. I've been just in awe of the support of family and friends and I had an amazing launch day, which was just incredible. But just-Lisa:When was your launch date?Jessica:I launched on May 15th during Food Allergy Awareness Week. So the campaign will be a total of 33 days. It ends on June 17th.Lisa:Let's talk about what you're going to do if you do make it. And if you don't make it.Jessica:To make the goal, I need a 1000 people to put $20 into the project. I think it's really feasible. And if the project succeeds, the plan is then I want the rewards to get out to people and the book itself to get out to people by December. So I will just jump right into the editing phase and illustration and then getting the book printed and shipped out.So I've been working with editors and plotting around that. I think it should take about between four and six months. I've given myself a lot of given myself enough padding, I think to make that happen. I really believe in this book and I'm not really focused on what's going to happen if it doesn't work because it's going to work. So on June 17th, I will know and I'm just kind of trusting that the next thing, yeah, will come and it will happen.Lisa:And so then you're going to be busy touring with this book.Jessica:Then I'm going to be really busy. Yeah, if it hasn't been busy enough, Kickstarter has been an adventure. It's a lot of work.Lisa:Let's say you get the book out and you're onto the next thing. Do you know what that's going to be?Jessica:Well I already have a another book in mind that is going to be like #Allergic to Everything Light because I think this book has a lot of comfort, delicious recipes. And I think that my cooking has shifted over time. So I kind of want to put just my newer, lighter. Yeah, just a little bit healthier. Initially, the things that I missed were breads and things with sugar in it and things like that. But no matter what, I've always been a teacher and I'll always be a teacher. So however I can teach, that's what I'll be doing.I was teaching for about five years, everything from yearbook to coaching robotics actually here at Berkeley. I was with high school most recently. And I think something that I think about in the future is teaching on the college level. I've kind of snaked my way up through all the grades and I found a really sweet spot in high school. But I think there's a really sweet spot in young adulthood when you're studying what you want and learning how you can manipulate the world and leave it a better place.Lisa:Do you feel like you've reached your comfort zone of allergies? You have your allergies under control?Jessica:I think I have my allergies under control. I don't always have temptation under control because it's a tempting world when everybody you live with is eating pizza. It's not always that easy not to eat it. Certain things I noticed trigger me and I'm still looking at them, like sesame for example. I kind of think that sesame oil causes me issues, but then I don't always think so. So I don't know. I think it's kind of an ongoing process.Yeah, and something to revisit too because a lot of people end up removing things and their system kind of gets this little break and then they're able to reincorporate them, which I've tried that. I haven't found that to be successful for myself, but I think it's possible for a lot of people, so yeah, I think it's a lifelong.Lisa:In your research, do you think that the human body will evolve to accept these bio engineered or GMO products ultimately?Jessica:I feel like we're evolving to reject them. If you look at just the ratio of wheat in things and the ratio of corn in things and that with the number of people affected by these things and the rate of the increase of allergens being diagnosed, especially in kids, it's outrageous. I don't think that we're helping ourselves. I think we're hiding a lot of things behind big bureaucratic systems.The way that the book is written is to be able to be used by anybody who's dealing with any of the top eight allergens. And this question has come up a lot by people looking at the project, wondering if their child's allergic to dairy and nuts, will they still be able to eat? And the answer is yes because every recipe is going to be flexible and your allergen will be able to be substituted within that. And I would say only 30% of the book probably contains those two items.So even without the flexibility of the recipes, there's still a ton of resources for everybody, but it is friendly to to all top eight allergens. And part of the reason that I wanted to do that is because I know that nobody's journey is the same and nobody's allergens look exactly the same and mine aren't all the top eight, but the top eight are responsible for 90% of the food allergic reactions. So I wanted to try to include as many people as I could.I think the things that made me fall in love with food, I think the food is all about our memories and about our experiences and little things go a long way and food attaches us to memories. And that's how we make memories with each other. And there's just a real sense of comfort in it, whether it was my grandmother taking the time to slice the grapes for the fruit salad and just shows love.Friendsgiving is how I started celebrating Thanksgiving when I came out here and just bringing people together. And I think that food really connects us with each other and with ourselves. And it's a big reflection on how we're taking care of ourselves and I think it's important and I think this book is important. I hope that people will consider supporting the project regardless of whether or not you have food allergies. Because I can practically guarantee, you know somebody who has food allergies and they deserve this resource.Lisa:Well, thank you, Jessica.Jessica:Thank you.Lisa:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back in two weeks at this same time. 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Bay Area music critic and culture historian, Greil Marcus, discusses The Slits and former Slits guitarist Viv Albertine's new memoir as well as his fascination with The Manchurian Candidate.Transcript:Lisa Kiefer:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Keifer, and today I'll be speaking with Bay Area native and resident Greil Marcus. Greil's has been writing about music and culture for the last 40 plus years, and today we're going to be talking about an event coming up as part of the Bay Area Book Festival. He'll be speaking with Viv Albertine, formerly of the seminal girl punk band, the Slits, on Sunday, April 29th at 3:15 PM at the David Brower Center, Goldman Theater, right here in Berkeley at 2150 Allston Way. Viv Albertine wrote a debut memoir in 2014 that was shortlisted for the National Book Award. Her new book is called To Throw Away Unopened. We'll be talking about that and much, much more.Did you ever see The Slits live?Greil Marcus:Nope.Lisa Kiefer:When did you first hear the Slits?Greil Marcus:You know, I heard the Slits, I was in England in 1980, and I went over there to do a story about the Raincoats and the Gang of Four and Essential Logic early in 1980, and met everybody, and in some cases had formed lifelong friendships out of that trip. And somebody handed me a record there. Yeah, it was called Once Upon a Time in a Living Room. It was the Slits official bootleg, or maybe, I don't know how official it was. It was on Y Records, and it was just the rawest stuff I'd ever heard in my life. I knew who the Slits were, I was aware of them. I heard their first album and it didn't knock me out, but this destroyed me.The first song, Once Upon a Time in a Living Room, starts off with one of them saying, "You're ready?" And someone else is, "Ready?" And then they just burst into laughter, and then there's this tremendous guitar chord coming down and that's it. There is just this storm of guitar noise with the most joyous back and forth, up and down yelping all through. It really is a song, even though at any given moment you, depending on how you're hearing it, it absolutely is noise. But there is a song, there is a musical theme. There are words, not that you could ever make them out. And I just thought it was the purest expression of punk I'd ever heard and I still do.Speaker 3:You're ready? Ready! Oh, no. (singing)Greil Marcus:I just fall over. How could anybody have the nerve to do this?Lisa Kiefer:They had no role models. It was so fresh. And I wonder, has there been anything so fresh as that period of time where the Sex Pistols emerged? They came on the scene, it was a short time, then they're gone. Do you think there's been anything quite like that?Greil Marcus:Yeah, there are analogies. There are parallels, maybe. Elvis at Sun Records in 1954 and '55. It was a similar explosion of creativity, and it brought people from all over the south to knocking on that same door saying, "Let me in. I want to make records too." And a lot of those people became legends, and there's creativity going on in hip hop, just unlimited. There are no borders. There's no bottom, there's no top. It's not just Kendrick Lamar, it's not just Kanye West. There is a group in Edinburgh called the Young Fathers, which is just tremendously playful and experimental, and at the same time, dead serious.Speaker 4:(singing)Greil Marcus:And I'm just talking about the few things I know, but in terms of coherence, with punk in England you have a time, you have a place, you have a scene, you have all different kinds of people who know each other, who are topping each other, who are learning from each other. Viv Albertine of the Slits, I want to be a guitarist. Well, she finds people who can show her how to be a guitarist, and there isn't envy and there isn't fear. I don't want to teach her, you know, she may end up outshining me. There isn't that spirit and it doesn't last very long. None of them. And yet that kind of camaraderie and a desire to speak and a desire to be heard, that was really what punk was all about, at least as I hear it. That was replicated all over the world and still is.One of the best stories about punk I ever heard was from a friend of mine who was spending time in Andalusia in Spain, and she's fluent in Spanish, and she was sitting in a cafe, and these kids came up to her and they said, "You're American, right?" And she said, "Yes." "But you speak Spanish." And she said, "Yes." And they said, "Well, we're punkies, and we have the Sex Pistols album, but we don't understand any of the words. Could you translate these songs for us?" So she did. And that led them, this little group of people who were trying, they didn't know if they wanted to form a band, if they wanted to put out a magazine, if they just wanted to do disruptive things in public, put on hit and run plays.That led them to rediscovering the history of their own town. The anarchist history of their own town, which had been completely erased and buried. And they started talking to older people, and they started digging into the libraries, and they realized that they were the heirs of a tradition that was being reenacted on this Sex Pistols record. And it gave them this tremendous sense of pride and identity. Now they didn't form a band, they didn't make any records, and yet that is a punk story. That is a story about a punk band, band of people as true and as inspiring as any other.Lisa Kiefer:It's a way of being, like as you've pointed out in many examples in Lipstick Traces, one of my favorite of your books.Greil Marcus:Oh, thank you.Lisa Kiefer:And I find myself going back to that. I mean I bought it when it came out, and the Lester Bangs collection that you edited.Greil Marcus:Sure.Lisa Kiefer:That I continue to go to, and that really opened my eyes. I was listening to this kind of music and I saw the cover and I thought, oh, this is a book about the Sex Pistols. So I start reading it and really it wasn't, but it educated me on the history, all the movements that I considered to be punk. From the Priests going up on Easter Sunday in 1950 and saying, "God is dead."Greil Marcus:In Notre Dame.Lisa Kiefer:Somewhere in France.Greil Marcus:Easter Mass in Notre Dame.Lisa Kiefer:And then, 10 years later, and John Lennon saying, "We're more popular than Jesus." I mean, this has been happening along the way.Greil Marcus:Yeah. And what was so fascinating to me, and the stories I end up trying to tell in Lipstick Traces was that it involved all sorts of people who were not unaware of each other, but are doing the same work, speaking the same language in different formal languages, whether it's English or French or German or whatever it might be.These are people who never met, who, if you told them, if you told the Dadaist Richard Huelsenbeck in the 1970s just before he died, that his real inheritors, his real soulmates were these people across town, he was living on the Upper West Side in Manhattan, people across town called the Velvet Underground, he might say, "I have all their albums." Or he might say, "Leave me alone. I'm a serious psychoanalyst." Who knows? But these people weren't aware of each other, and yet they are following in each other's footsteps and taking inspiration from other, whether they know it or not.Lisa Kiefer:Let's talk a little bit about what's going on Sunday and your conversation with Viv, her first memoir, and now I want to talk a little bit about musician memoirs. I love literature deeply and it's kind of my guilty pleasure to read all of these rock memoirs or whatever, whether it's Keith Richards, Kim Gordon. Have you read Kim Gordon's?Greil Marcus:Sure.Lisa Kiefer:Viv's first one, which is called Clothes, Clothes, Clothes, Music, Music, Music, Boys, Boys, Boys, it was so entertaining. I was so engaged and I didn't expect to be.Greil Marcus:You know, it's a marvelous book.Lisa Kiefer:You called it the best punk book ever.Greil Marcus:I think it is. I think if you want to get a sense of what impelled people, what drove people to step out of their shells, their shyness, their manners, their politeness and reinvent themselves and the joy they felt in doing so for a very brief period of time, this book will show you that, not just tell you, but show that to you, like no other book or film that I'm aware of. But you know, the title really sums up Viv Albertine, I think. Clothes, Clothes, Clothes, Boys, Boys, Boys, Music, Music, Music, which is what her mother once said. "That's all you care about. Clothes, clothes, clothes and boys, boys, boys and music, music, music." And she's, "Yeah, that's right." And there's a wonderful scene at the end of the book. She's in her fifties, she's been married and divorced, she has a daughter, she has this boyfriend and their relationship is not working.And at one point he just explodes, and he grabs her by the neck, and he's shoving her face into the carpet on the floor and she really feels he's trying to kill her, and she's struggling and she's thinking, but she takes you right into her head at that moment. And she says, "Here's a man who I've introduced to my mother and my daughter, who I've cooked for, who I've dressed. I've done everything for this person. And here I am wearing an applique blouse." And she goes and tells you exactly what clothes she's wearing at this moment. And he's pounding my face into the carpet. And she says, "You know, there's just no pleasing some people," and she has that sardonic attitude. But what have you got here? While there's no music in that scene, but you got the boys and you got the clothes, and there's an appendix that tells you what she was wearing and what she was listening to and who she was involved with in any given point of time in the many years covered by this book.The only analogy to that is a Jan and Dean album, the wonderful surf doo-wop group from the 50s and 60s, and it's a collection, and on the back of the album there's a concordance matching the car and girlfriend that Jan or Dean had at the time any given record was released. And what's really fascinating as you read through this is that both the cars and the girlfriends are constantly shifting back and forth between the two of them. They both have Corvettes. One gets a Porsche, the other gets a Maserati. One is going out with Jill, the other's going out with Debbie, and then Debbie is going out with the other one. It's just so funny to read. And so is Viv Albertine's book.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah, she starts her book saying, "I don't masturbate and I never had a desire to masturbate." That's how she starts the book. Later she's talking about Ari Up, who is their vocalist, that she takes a wee right on the stage. I mean, that had to be the first time ever for a girl band to, she had to go and that's where she did it. She was stabbed a couple of times. Really vivid, and you just get this idea that she was so courageous and brave and honest. She's talking about when she first started listening to T. Rex. And why? Because he was a little less aggressively masculine. And I can remember the same thing happened to me in my little town in the Midwest. No one was listening to T. Rex. They did not understand what I liked about Marc Bolan and I loved him, so I've really connected with this book on many levels.Greil Marcus:Yeah, and one of the things that I find so moving in her new book, it's called To Throw Away Unopened, which is another book. I hate to think of them as memoirs because both of these books are so imaginatively constructed, and they really are about things outside the writer's life. The writer is living in a world. The world is present in these books. I think of them as much more ambitious intellectually than memoirs. What happened to me, this all really happened. You should care about it. Why should I care about this? I don't care about this. You have to make me care.This is a book revolving around the death of her mother in 2014, which was at the time that she published her first book, and her conflicts with her sister, and the mystery of her parents' marriage and why it broke up, and who her parents really were. Things that she began to find out after her mother died. Putting all this stuff together, and yet you are always aware of a particular individual fighting to maintain her sense of self, which is constructed, which is self-conscious, which is real, but which could disappear and shatter at any time.There's one incident early on in the book, where she's talking about going to pubs, playing her songs. You know, she's got her guitar, she goes to places, she plays songs because she wants to be heard. She's not making money doing this. She's not supporting herself doing this. It's something she absolutely has to do. And she's in one pub, and there's a bunch of guys right up front who are really drunk and loud-mouthing and shouting and paying no attention to her at all, making it impossible for anybody else to pay attention to her. And there are people there who want to, and impossible for her to pay attention to what she's supposedly doing. So she asked him, "Could you maybe go to the back, maybe go to the bar. I'm trying to get these songs across." And they ignore her. They didn't even say (beep) you. Sorry, we're on the radio.Lisa Kiefer:I'll bleep.Greil Marcus:They don't say a word to her, they just ignore her. And so she gets up, she puts her guitar down, she gets up, she walks over to their table, she picks up a mug of ale, which is the closest thing to her, and she simply sweeps it across the faces of these four guys sitting at the table, and they look at her, absolutely stunned. And then she picks up another mug and she says it was a Guinness, which, this is Viv Albertine as a writer. Every detail is important. It's a Guinness. That's interesting. It's going to be thicker. It's going to stay in clothes more. It's actually going to be more unpleasant to have that thrown in your face.And she throws that in their face and she says, "Your punk attitude, it comes back to you when you need it." And there's a way in which that is sort of the key as I read it anyway, to this new book, as it comes back to you in terms of the the responsibility you have to not back down, to stand up for yourself, but also to stand up for things you believe are right and in jeopardy, to fight when you have to. And to be relentlessly honest, and not pretend you don't care when you do or that you do care when you don't.Lisa Kiefer:I've read her first book. The second isn't out yet. So are they going to be selling it on Sunday?Greil Marcus:Well, she's on a book tour.Lisa Kiefer:So I assume it'll be there.Greil Marcus:So presumably, you don't go on a book tour unless you've got a book that people can go out and get.Lisa Kiefer:And it is the Bay Area Book Festival.Greil Marcus:Yeah.Lisa Kiefer:So, it sounds like you think it's as strong as the first book, which was nominated for a National Book Award.Greil Marcus:It's very different. It's very different, and as writing, it certainly is strong. Whether the story is smaller in terms of the room that makes for the reader, maybe it is, I'm not sure. Viv Albertine is a remarkable person who's done exceptional things in her life, who has a tremendous sense of humor, who has a sense of jeopardy and danger.You can hear it in her music and you can feel it coming off the pages that she writes. I don't know what we're going to talk about. I don't know what this will be like. I just know that as someone listening to the record she made, seeing her play live, reading her books, that she is just a person who can go in any direction at any time. I saw her in 2009 at the Kitchen in Brooklyn, at a show with the Raincoats. She was opening for them, just herself and her electric guitar. Most of what she did was tell stories on stage, was talk. She played songs, but she was mainly telling stories, and it was the most entertaining and diverting and compelling stuff I'd seen in a long time. I was just hanging on every word, and she was both funny and sardonic and cruel to herself and anybody she might be talking about.And at one point she made some reference to how she looks. She was, I think, 54 then. She looked about 30. There was just no question. You say, "Is this real? Is this happening?" And she said, "Yeah, yeah, I know, it's the curse of the Slits." Well, one thing I'm going to ask her is, "What do you mean by that?" You know, the Fountain of Youth? What's going on here? You know, I met her once in, I think, 1991 in England.Lisa Kiefer:When she was doing films. She's a director.Greil Marcus:Yeah, she was a TV director. We were introduced and I said, "My God, you're Viv Albertine?" I'm like, wow. And she was saying, "No, I just, you know, I'm just doing this little TV crew." And I said, "No, this is a big deal for me to meet you." Well, it will be a big deal for me to meet her again.Lisa Kiefer:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Greil Marcus, music critic and culture historian.You've written a monogram on The Manchurian Candidate sometime ago, and you introduced it as part of a film series at the Pacific Film Archive this week. What is your fascination with this Frankenheimer film?Greil Marcus:Well, I saw it when it came out in 1961, saw it at the Varsity Theater in Palo Alto with my best friend. I was 16 and came out of that movie shellshocked. I had never seen anything like it. The only analogy was, I guess the year before seeing Psycho in a theater across the street in Palo Alto. And when that chair turns around at the end of the movie, and you see this mummy, I think you could have peeled me off the ceiling of the theater. But that movie, ultimately it was a puzzle. It was a game. It was a tease for the audience. It wasn't about anything real. You didn't carry it with you. It wasn't like a waking bad dream. It wasn't like a bad conscience that this movie was passing onto, and that's what The Manchurian Candidate was. It was shocking in every way I could possibly account for, and at 16 couldn't begin to account for.I realize now that I had never seen a movie that so completely went to the edges of possibility of the medium itself. What I mean by that is I understood what movies could be after seeing The Manchurian Candidate, and I had never even thought the movies could or couldn't be anything before. The question wasn't even there. The only comparable experience was seeing Murnau's Sunrise quite a few years later and say, "Ah, now I understand this is what movies were meant to be, but almost never are."Lisa Kiefer:With Trump as our president, it's almost like he could be the Manchurian Candidate.Greil Marcus:Well, you know, since John McCain was first running for president and he was, you know, remember he was a prisoner of war and he was beaten and he was tortured. He was filmed, essentially confessing. And there were many people who began to spread rumors about him that he was, and this phrase was used, the Manchurian Candidate, that he had been brainwashed in Vietnam.And he had come back here as a kind of sleeper agent. And somebody once said to him, "How do you make decisions?" And he said, "Well, I just turn over the Red Queen," which is one of the clues in The Manchurian Candidate.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah, I brought one with me. I was going to try and brainwash you.Greil Marcus:Yes, exactly. The Queen of Hearts. That is a crucial marker in the film. But it wasn't that it was showing us a conspiracy to destroy our country, which is part of what the movie is about. And that we would then say, "Oh my God, this could happen. This is so scary. This is so terrible." Over the years, this is 1961 or '62, Kennedy, John F. Kennedy was involved in the making of the movie. He and Sinatra discussed it. Kennedy wanted Lucille Ball to play the role of the mother that Angela Lansbury ended up playing. Kennedy was weighing in on the casting.He and Sinatra were close at that time. Sinatra's the lead in the movie. Kennedy is assassinated in 1963, Malcolm X was later. It was Malcolm X who said that with Kennedy's assassination, the chickens had come home to roost. And then we just go through the decades, it's just a panoply of disaster, whether it's Wallace, whether it's Reagan, whether it's Malcolm X, whether it's Martin Luther King, whether it's RFK, and going on and on to Gerald Ford, two assassination attempts on him, and into the present.As each of these things happened, the movie comes back to people with more and more reverberation because the story, the sense that our politics don't make sense. This is that everything is happening in a world beyond our control, knowledge or even our abilities to comprehend.Lisa Kiefer:And there are so many secrets that we aren't able to know about.Greil Marcus:Yeah, this gets more and more present. So when you end up with a president, a candidate, and then a president who is at the very least beholden to, and at the very worst, under the control of another country, it's almost as if you can't make the Manchurian Candidate argument because it's too trivial. Well, this movie said, but that's what we carry around our heads.But what's shocking about the movie? I want to get back to that because if people haven't seen it, it was unavailable for many years. It was essentially, it wasn't banned in any legal sense, of course, but you couldn't see it for many, many years. It just felt wrong after Kennedy's assassination and it played on TV after Kennedy was assassinated, but then Sinatra controlled the movie. He pulled it. It didn't come out in video. It didn't show on late night TV. It didn't show in revival screenings. It just wasn't there.You could tell people about it as a kind of legend. Now it's available. People can watch it in any way they want, at any time they want. And one of the things that happens in this movie is violence. Violence that from the very first moment is wounding, is disturbing, is hard to take, and it's absolutely in your face. I mean that literally, the movie puts blood splatters in your face. It happens in a way that you're just desperate, as the movie is going on, for it not to go where you know it's going to go. This is not a movie with a happy ending. This has one of the most awful endings that I know. It is an ending of complete despair and self-loathing and hopelessness. The last words of the movie is Sinatra. "Hell, hell, hell!" That's how the movie ends. And there's a thunderclap. Bang. That's it. And you just walk out of there...Lisa Kiefer:Stunned.Greil Marcus:... and it's like your world has been taken away from you. None of this would matter if this movie wasn't made with tremendous glee and excitement on the part of the director and the writer and the editor and the cinematographer and Lawrence Harvey and Frank Sinatra...Lisa Kiefer:Great cast.Greil Marcus:... and Angela Lansbury and Janet Leigh and on and on and on. All these people are working over their heads. They've never been involved in anything that demanded so much of them, that is making them feel, this is what I was born to do. Can I pull this off? Can I make this work? Can I convince people this is who I really am, that I actually would do these terrible things, and going past themselves. None of the people in this movie, to my knowledge or the way I see it, ever did anything as good before or after.They never did anything as innovative. They never did anything as radical. They never did anything as scary. And whether or not they felt that way about their own work in their own lives, don't have any idea, but I don't think so.Lisa Kiefer:I do want you to mention your website, which I have found to be very interesting. What is that?Greil Marcus:Well, there's a writer named Scott Woods who lives in Canada, and he approached me a number of years ago and asked if he could set up a website to collect my writing and just be a gathering place. And I said, "Sure." It's greilmarcus.net, and he just immediately began putting up articles, old things I'd written, recent things I'd written in no particular order, no attempt to be comprehensive, at least not right away. He did it with such incredible imagination and flair, but he started a feature a few years ago. It has the rather corny title of Ask Greil where people write in and ask me questions, and it could be about a song, or a band, or politics, or history or anything, or novels, movies. And I just answered them. I answered them all immediately because if I didn't, they'd pile up and I'd never get back to them. Is Donald Trump a Russian agent? Well, here's why he might be, and that's a complicated argument. So I take some time to talk about it.Lisa Kiefer:Thank you for coming onto Method to the Madness and being our guest here at KALX.Greil Marcus:Well, thank you. It's a thrill to be on your show.Lisa Kiefer:That was musicologist Greil Marcus. He'll be in conversation this Sunday, April 29th at 3:15 with Viv Albertine, formerly of the Slits. This is part of the Bay Area Book Festival in partnership with the San Francisco Chronicle. They'll be speaking at the Goldman Theater of the David Brower Center at 2150 Allston Way. Tickets are $10 ahead.You've been listening to Method to the Madness. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll be back in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

UC Berkeley students and founders of RoBhat Labs, Ash Bhat and Rohan Phadte, have launched a Twitter bot checker called Botcheck.me using data science and machine learning to help any user identify fake news.Transcript:Lisa Kiefer:You're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today I have two UC Berkeley students, Ash and Rohan, and they have launched a Twitter Bot checker that has really taken off. We're going to talk to them about how they're battling fake news.I'd like to welcome the UC Berkeley students. What year are you guys?Ash Bhat:We're juniors.Lisa Kiefer:It's Ash Bhat and Rohan Phadte. And you've come to my attention because you came up with an innovative Twitter Bot Checker and I assume you've probably come up with a lot of other things too since then. But I wanted to talk to you about your lab, RoBhat lab, which combines your names, that's really great. So tell me first of all, what is a bot?Ash Bhat:Yeah, so one of the things that we've been really looking at was on Twitter. There are a lot of these accounts that try really hard to be human but actually have bot-like behavior behind it. And there are a lot of bots that are really harmless on Twitter. A lot of them are... actually say that they're bots and they actually just tweet out maybe like every word in the English language as an automation exercise, but there are some other bots on Twitter that are actually pretty dangerous and they end up pushing, or re-tweeting a lot of these political propaganda memes or topics and a lot of other people can actually see these bot networks spread this information, look at the information and think that, oh look, my friends are sharing it. There's a lot of people here.Lisa Kiefer:It's legitimate.Ash Bhat:It's legitimate.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah.Ash Bhat:In fact, it's actually been propagated by, you know, hundreds or maybe even thousands of bot-like profiles and it's basically artificially creating this virality on Twitter.Lisa Kiefer:When did you come to the realization that this was a problem that you had to find a solution to?Rohan Phadte:Yes, so in terms of our background, we started out trying to figure out... trying to identify fake news computationally. The way we approached it was trying to figure out where fake news was being spread. So we actually went on Twitter, started looking at the different accounts that are spreading fake news and we started noticing that they didn't look human at all. They were tweeting out every minute, they seem to be tweeting at every hour of the day. And so all of a sudden we're like this seems to not be human. And so that's sort of how we got into this entire...Lisa Kiefer:I read that... What's the guy's name? Yiannopoulos who was here...Rohan Phadte:Oh yeah.Lisa Kiefer:... was that the impetus?Rohan Phadte:Yeah, Milo is definitely an impetus in the sense that's sort of how we got into like the political space. We were both at the protest and while we were there we realized that there is so much misinformation that was being spread about the protest. And that's how we started getting acquainted with the space.Lisa Kiefer:So you are studying what here at UC Berkeley?Rohan Phadte:I'm an interdisciplinary studies field major, so I'm studying like quite a few different majors. So everything from sociology to philosophy to like computer science.Lisa Kiefer:Oh that's a nice mix. What about you?Ash Bhat:I'm studying computer science, electrical engineering. So I mainly the engineering side and doing a little bit of part of breakfast research.So I read that you call yourself Data Scientist. What does that mean exactly?Rohan Phadte:Yes. So in terms of a data science, we're looking at a lot of statistics. Data science is a very sexy word for like a statistical analysis. So we're looking at a lot of texts, we're looking at a lot of numbers and we're trying to make sense of it all. And that's essentially what we do as data scientists.Lisa Kiefer:You started this lab, walk me through your process. What did you need to do first after you realized you want to get truth in the information space?Ash Bhat:It started off as just us working on projects basically just be being like, what can we do? We're computer scientists, we can solve any problem. Like we can try it. You use our technical knowledge like solve any problem and-Lisa Kiefer:You're going to use it for a class project or is this outside of class?Ash Bhat:This is completely outside of class project. Completely outside of class. On nights we're like, "Hey, we should be doing something about this." In fact, one of the interesting things we saw was on Facebook, Facebook announced that they are going to be doing something about solving fake news and like trying to detect and trying to stop spreading it. And then right below that we saw instances of, fake news still being spread by a couple of like friends and profiles.And so we were just like, "Hey, there must be something to be done here." And taking matters in their own hands. We were looking at, hey, we can use our data science and machine learning that we learned at Berkeley to try to create our own algorithms to help solve this problem.Lisa Kiefer:And so what do you do with them? I mean explained to me. I use Twitter very rarely. How would I use your ... What do you call your Bot Checker?Ash Bhat:We call it botcheck.me.Lisa Kiefer:And tell me how I would use that. Walk me through how I can protect my account.Ash Bhat:Botcheck.me is actually a website you can visit and it has a couple of dashboards which talk about the ... Basically talk about the statistics of the current bot network, how they're acting, what are the most recent topics, what are they talking about and there's also a search bar where you can enter in any Twitter username and once you enter then a Twitter username, it will actually send up to our server. We'll run statistical analysis behind the scenes, we'll be looking at the tweets, we'll be looking at the how often they tweet, the tweet timestamps, the number of likes. Basically looking at the profiles network and we can accurately determine whether that profile or not is a bot or human.Lisa Kiefer:How accurately.Ash Bhat:Yeah, so recently when we first launched, we're getting about 93% of high confidence profile bot accounts and then since then, since we have a bunch of feedback from the community, we've actually had about 50,000 users in over 500,000 accounts classified. And that number is just risen since then because has been taking all this input from humans and learning. And so now that number's about 96 to 97%.Lisa Kiefer:That's not bad.Ash Bhat:Because I think it's a great start for understanding the button work on Twitter, especially since there's already not getting out there and just having all the information out there really add can educate a user whether an account or not is actually spreading humans stuff.Lisa Kiefer:When you need this data that to do your analysis, do you have to pay for that from Twitter? How do you get your information?Rohan Phadte:Yeah, so in terms of getting the information, Twitter actually has a public API and so we're actually able-Lisa Kiefer:And what is an API?Rohan Phadte:So API is essentially a ... It's sort of like hitting a URL to get access to information in a way that we can run data analysis on. So Twitter makes a bit of their service of available for developers like us to actually take advantage of and like use for statistical analysis.Lisa Kiefer:Well I didn't know Twitter provided that free. So they're taking a passive stance it sounds like, and letting developers. Why do you think they're taking a passive stance and not doing this themselves?Ash Bhat:We're actually a little bit confused concerning that we're two college students that have been able to build something that you just very clearly want. The response that we've got has been absolutely insane. But that being said, Twitter's a multi-billion dollar company with hundreds if not thousands of engineers and we think they should totally be doing more when this problem is so, so important and a problem that we all face.Lisa Kiefer:Well, have you talked to anyone there? What do you think is the reason? Is it because they need the advertising promotional? They don't want to put any restraints on business or what?Ash Bhat:We're not entirely sure, but one thing that has been pretty fascinating is Twitter hasn't really responded to our comments to us reaching out to them, but also we recently gave a talk at Stanford and I think Twitter was supposed to be there as well, and when they found out we were going to be speaking, I think they dropped out of the talk and so like we're not entirely sure like what's happening. We haven't really heard too much back. But yeah, we are definitely very curious.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah, it seems like Facebook and Twitter and maybe other, they're taking a passive approach like this problem is going to go away.Ash Bhat:Yeah, I mean from I guess one theory that we have and we don't want to speculate too much. It is a very complex area for them to be in, especially concerning even when Facebook try to prevent fake news, they actually got in trouble for seeming a anti-conservative and so there's a lot of this pushback against Facebook or Twitter seeming politically polarized if they were to take a position one way or the other.Lisa Kiefer:One side or the other would accuse them.Ash Bhat:Exactly, yeah.Lisa Kiefer:After all your research, do you think that one side of the political spectrum is using these bots more than others or is it pretty equal?Ash Bhat:In terms of how these bots come out in terms of politics, we've actually noticed bots on both sides of the political spectrum. It's been actually very, very, very scary. We've seen examples such as like the Parkland shootings when bots were tweeting out about gun control from both sides of the debate and what this actually creates is a even more of a divide.And on top of that, the thing that again scares us is these bots are able to sort of influence the conversation. So where in the case of Parkland, where it could have been a conversation were we would've found unity around mental health. It became a conversation where we fought over gun control. These are the different areas where we actually find bot networks incredibly scary in terms of like their effect on how we talk about certain issues.Lisa Kieifer:I mean, how do we know the truth and why is that important?Ash Bhat:Yeah, there was recently an MIT study that came out that said fake news actually spreads a much faster and much broader than real news. And they looked at data from the 2016 elections. And I think the core thesis that we took away from that was fake news is in some ways more sexy, more interesting to read. And thus it spreads virally a lot, easier.That sort of becomes this problem where it's inherently spread spending lot faster, yet it comes with all these different problems that is baked into being fake. And so we're sort of struggling with that. Like, how do we incentivize people to read the truth and also how do we stop fake news from spreading in the first place?Lisa Kiefer:It's an interesting question because education of most people in the country is not that great anymore. And so they're not learning how to critically think. And so there's a reliance instead of doubting something or going deeper, there's just a superficial like, okay that that's the truth. So if you don't have critical thinking skills, you're not going to be able to, to know the difference I think. And that's scary.Ash Bhat:Yeah, like the way we see it internally is like, we almost see it like a mind virus when it comes to like a lot of these ideas in the sense that they sort of spread in the same ways that viruses do. They infect a few like initial people, they start spreading their hosts and the analogy seems to just work almost perfectly.Lisa Kiefer:Yeah.Ash Bhat:Yeah.Lisa Kiefer:And the other side of that is once something is out there, you can't put it back in the bottle. Even if somebody says, no, no, no, no, it's been proven to be wrong. It's already in my head somehow.Ash Bhat:Yeah, it's incredibly hard to quarantine right?Lisa Kiefer:Right. Did you have many challenges when you develop this product and if you did, what were they?Rohan Phadte:Just from a technical standpoint of looking through all the basically statistical models and you have to actually basically teach a computer on how to learn what a bot and what a human is. And so it does take a little bit of engineering time behind it and I a little bit of research to understand how exactly can we make this computer most effectively learn what the difference between a bot and human is.And then even then as you have that very powerful model, it's basically a game of to figure out how can we best release this model out to the public so that they can understand what's going on in their network and how can they use it the most effectively versus becoming a cat and mouse game of like just people calling each other bots and you're a bot, you're not a bot and then making like a flame more based on that.And that's something we really want to avoid. Just want to increase ... Make people more aware of their entire social network without actually making people start calling each other names and saying, hey, you're bot not a bot.Lisa Kiefer:How did you do that?Rohan Phadte:Yeah, so what we wanted to do is we actually made the tool and when we tried to be very careful with here. We tried to basically say, hey, it's a very good tool to help you understand what you're talking to. Is it a bot or is it a human? Are you arguing with specifically someone who actually has an opinion on this versus an automated new account?And our tool is very good at just giving that information saying, "Hey, this is likely to be a bot" but like, "Hey, make sure be warned that this is, this is likely not to be a human." And so it gives that user that information. Just say, "Hey, be a little bit more careful here." If you're arguing and constantly getting, nothing's really making any difference than hey, just be warned that this could be a bot.Lisa Kiefer:So if I'm in conversation with something that may be a bot, what would I see? Some of them are automated at the other end so you can tell the answers are just automated answers.Rohan Phadte:There's different levels of bot to that that we've seen. So some are specifically completely all automated and some of them are are like maybe a mixture. So there's a human behind the scenes and there's could be some automation aspects to the actual itself.And so sometimes you'll be able to like message a bot and you won't get any response back because they're not set up for automation for that. And sometimes you'll be able to get a response back because there's someone controlling it behind the scenes and it's kind of hard to tell. One of the true tales that we can tell from just maybe like the profiles that you can see that there's a lot of retweets, a tweets happened very quickly, a tweets happened every few like few minutes or maybe once every minute happening pretty often close to 24 hours at a day doesn't really stop or maybe specifically re-tweeting the same sources and those are all true tale signs that you can check as a human to see if our this account or not is a bot.Lisa Kiefer:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness. A bi-weekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm speaking with founders of RoBhat labs, two UC Berkeley students using artificial intelligence to create a botbuster called Botcheck me, battling fake news.Seems like all of these services started out with a pretty idealistic philosophy, you know, whether it was Facebook or Twitter and the uprising in Egypt, Twitter was great for that. I see it as being a real great tool for journalists who are out in remote areas. It didn't take long though for it to become co-opted. What are your using now besides Twitter? What do you think is the best social media tool right now?Ash Bhat:To answer your question, I think you brought up a really interesting word and that's tool. I think that's totally what these things are, right? They aren't necessarily morally right or morally wrong. It's a tool and can be used in a variety of different ways. And so with Twitter, yes it's been beautiful for things like protests-Lisa Kiefer:Errant springs.Ash Bhat:Errant springs, but that being said, it's also a tool that can be used to create polarization, to create the spread of misinformation. And so like in that perspective, like when it comes down to like what is the best social network? I think all these social networks are tools and it's how we use them and how we like receive our information from them. So it's hard to like answer that question.Lisa Kiefer:Do you feel like you were successful and that you're moving on to new things or are you still working on this Twitter bot?Ash Bhat:So in terms of this problem, the way we've seen it is the first step in solving a problem is identifying it. And so that's sort of what we'd done with Botcheck me like over the past several months, I think society as a whole has become a lot more aware of these problems and we're really happy that we've played a role in terms of helping that happen.But that being said, I guess the next step for us in terms of things that we're working and when we're publishing a report that essentially is going to talk about like, and identify a lot of the different phenomenons that are going on just so that we can start becoming more aware-Lisa Kiefer:What kind of phenomenon?Ash Bhat:For example, like we see these things called DMAs which are distributed misinformation attacks. And so that's sort of what these bot networks are. They're essentially like a distributed way of like a lot of these bots trying to spread misinformation. And so like different concepts like that we're trying to like make available for the public so that we also have understanding for them. And I guess the next step after that is trying to understand ...Once we understand how to detect these problems, how to prevent them so that they don't happen again in the future. And so we're working with groups like the Democratic Party for example, the Democratic National Committee along with different groups to make sure that these sort of things don't happen Again.Lisa Kiefer:Are you working with Republican Party too?Ash Bhat:We've been talking to a couple different campaigns. We haven't had a chance to like have a similar conversation with the Republican National Committee, but we hope to.Lisa Kiefer:So you're moving on to new areas that read that you guys have like a blackboard with 20,000 apps on it. I know you're busy with school, you have to graduate too, but what is your next project or are you just wrapped up completely in what you just told me?Ash Bhat:Yeah, so I guess we can't comment too much on like the different projects that we have behind the scenes just because we have a lot of these different confidential or like relationships that we can't honestly talk about yet. But that being said, this is a problem that we care very deeply about and want to have a huge impact. And so we are actively ... Every single day, we spend time working on coming up with solutions to make sure that these sort of problems don't happen again in the future.Lisa Kiefer:I think it's so wonderful that you are so committed to this idea. How does that happen? You both grew up in San Jose area, correct?Ash Bhat:Yeah.Lisa Kiefer:And you've known each other a very long. Were you neighbors? Tell me about your backgrounds.Rohan Phadte:Yeah, actually Ash and I were basically childhood friends we even get at each other in about middle school. And since then we've been pretty good friends. So we saw each other as like a, you know, in highest and like basically school, I was like competitors, just a little competitive whenever we tried to try like have tests and stuff. But I mean for the most part we've been really, really good friends. We've had cross country together, we used to do robotics together back in high school.Lisa Kiefer:Robotics? Okay.Rohan Phadte:And so yeah, so we've always had an interest in passion in technology and that's just pretty much grown from there. And since when we got both gone to Berkeley, we're like, we have to be a housemates, we had to be roommates. And so that happened.Lisa Kiefer:How does that work out where you're rooming together and you also have a business together? Is that something that must be challenging sometimes?Ash Bhat:The thing that's really interesting about this entire thing is Rohan and I have been building projects since we were like teenagers. What sort of happened was over the past like eight or so years, every year I guess the world just started listing a little bit more and like it's just been very validating to work on these projects that we like build for our friends. And now like we have tens of thousands of people that use us every single day.Lisa Kiefer:And how did you get the word out? I know you grew up in Silicon Valley, so you've probably even run into people that are in this business. How did you make the approach, I don't know, how did you get your support?Ash Bhat:We were working in a space with a huge problem and no solutions. And so, I think it was a byproduct of like us being at the right place in the right time. We're in Berkeley working on computer science in one of the most interesting political probably in history, like in US history. And so like I think there's a lot of a huge component of luck to everything that's going on. And yeah, we're incredibly lucky to be where we are.Lisa Kiefer:Do you feel like the tech field is, it's a crisis point right now? I mean, I deleted my Facebook account. I mean, I just feel like it's not anything but a promotional tool. It's great for marketing, you know, we're companies. But for me personally, I just, I don't know. It's not what I thought it would be. They're definitely getting pushed back right now. There's room for a new company.Ash Bhat:I think we're reevaluating our techno optimism. I think for the past like a generation, we've been very, very optimistic about what technology can do. And in many ways we built these amazing tools that let us be connected to each other, get access to information in a way that we've never had.I have a phone in my pocket that I can ask any question to and it'll give me the answer in a couple of seconds. And like that's an amazing place to be in in terms like a point in history. But that being said, with tools come like the positives and negatives. And I think we're at this point, we've started reevaluating the what technology really means to us. And that being said, I don't think it's anything to base on technology. I think it's more so just natural progression of things.Lisa Kiefer:You're both studying artificial intelligence here?Ash Bhat:Yeah. That's correct. Yeah.Lisa Kiefer:What does that like, can you explain what you're studying here in terms of artificial intel and how you use that in your products?Ash Bhat:Artificial intelligence is a like really fancy word for getting computers to essentially work off of heuristics and essentially automate certain tasks. AI Or artificial intelligence is a very broad term that like covers everything from like machine learning to a lot of the simple apps that we use every single day.Rohan Phadte:So maybe that artificial intelligence is me basically used to make decisions for on layer very large data sets. So on an instance where a human might be overwhelmed with a large amount of data, like gigabytes and you know, penta bytes of data, artificial intelligence is a very good way of basically sorting that in an organizable way. Ways that computers can understand very well and then make high level decisions that are statistically probable to yield the highest result at the end.And this is a very powerful tool. I mean a lot of robots and a lot of self driving cars in fact, use this tool, get a lot of data and then make decisions based off that and they can get some high accuracy results in the end better than a human could.Lisa Kiefer:Right. Except for those few accidents.Rohan Phadte:Exactly. I mean this is all process of development. Yeah.Lisa Kiefer:You've been recognized by wired magazine and CBS News. What other accomplishments are you really proud of since you've gotten into this space of protecting all of us from fake news?Ash Bhat:I think the accomplishment that we're most proud of is the users that we've been able to like work with and the amount of accounts that we've classified. Twitter classified about 6,000 accounts when they came out and talked in front of Congress and I think it was November 1st October 31st last year.Today, we've classified over half a million accounts. Just having like a scope of that, that's what we get up every morning excited about. That's sort of what, what makes all of this so validating.Lisa Kiefer:If somebody approached you, your lab and said, we want to buy you for billion dollars or whatever, would you do it?Ash Bhat:I think at the end of the day like we're chasing after this goal. So like we evaluate all the options that we would have in terms of what brings us closest to like achieving that goal. And so like that's sort of the-Lisa Kiefer:So that's not your goal?Ash Bhat:Yeah. Yeah. That's not our goal. Yeah. Our goal is to like solve the problem that we're working on.Lisa Kiefer:You're natural innovators. Do you feel like this area has a lot of natural innovators because of where you grew up or is it your families? What do you think it takes to truly be an innovator like that? Is it the knowledge you've learned or?Rohan Phadte:Yeah, I think too, in order to be like an innovator in this area, you really need to understand where the problem speaks set and where the problems are in society and how it affects people. And then once you get a good understanding of that, you can actually start developing some interesting technology. And in the case of Ash and I and Botcheck me, we've actually spent months just studying fake news beforehand.Before wrote a single line of code, we studied how it spreads and how it looks at what the previous research papers on this area and looking at specifically how is Facebook and Twitter already trying to tackle this problem already and I think that's really important to truly understand the area before you go and delve in before you can just say, "Hey tech can solve that." Or "Hey, just add a little line of code, artificial intelligence can solve that." It really takes a bit of understanding of the problem space in order to understand what is the best way to attack the problem.Lisa Kiefer:What about money? Did you have to get funding to do this work or are you just doing it? Is it just your own blood, sweat and tears?Ash Bhat:Yeah, so funny story on that. It's our completely our blood, sweat and tears. Like we've been so like so frugal about like every expense we're supporting so many users and like we have to figure out how to like make it super cost efficient. A lot of startups don't necessarily have to like worry about like where do we get money or like they they raise funding. We haven't raised a single cent of capital. It's been just absurd like all the different efficiencies and like hacks that we put together to make this entire service run as as cheap as possible on us so that we can provide it for free for the users.Lisa Kiefer:So how would you make money if you're providing it free? Would you have to run ads on it eventually? What's your model?Ash Bhat:Yeah, so in terms of like monetizing this, we think there, this is a real problem. We see this as like the next generation of spam right now I think, I think we've done a pretty good job of like being sort of the thought leaders and like sort of like the experts in the space. Like as this problem becomes larger and groups like the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, run into these issues, we hope to be the group that solves these issues for them.We have access to the best data just because we have the most amazing users and we have access to the best insights. So like we're thinking through using that and that's sort of where we are looking to like monetize.Lisa Kiefer:So it's like the consulting fee or something like that?Ash Bhat:Not necessarily we want to build products with the insight that have in a scalable way so that all these different groups that are affected by problems like misinformation can actually take our products and solve their problems and we can solve those pain points.Lisa Kiefer:So at some point, you would put a price on that product, is that what you're saying?Ash Bhat:Yeah-Lisa Kiefer:Now it's free but-Ash Bhat:Not for the users, but we are starting to charge big groups like the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, like for these sort of services.Lisa Kiefer:At some point you'll be cut loose of UC Berkeley and you won't have access to that free data, right?Ash Bhat:So we don't actually use any of UC Berkeley's data.Rohan Phadte:So yeah, this is the, for example, the Twitter API is completely public in terms of getting gathering data. We've built this all on our own servers and our own end and so we pretty much have access to everything from the algorithm to the data to basically just the entire pipeline altogether. And so we want to scale this out and the way we can and we want to make it as accessible to all the users as we personally can.Lisa Kiefer:Can anybody have access to this data that you, if you have your own servers and everything?Ash Bhat:We're in a unique position because our users hand classify accounts every single day for us. That's why our models are able to keep up with the changing network. And so that's our proprietary data and the reason why we don't make it public, is because we don't want the bots to learn how we're classifying them as like propaganda accounts. And so we'd love to make that public. But like we were sort of at this like limitation where we're worried that the adversaries that we're sort of going after might learn if we were to like publish the datasets that we're working with.Lisa Kiefer:Has anybody asked you about publishing it?Ash Bhat:People would definitely have. And in terms of adversaries, we are servers get attacked every single day. We get attacked on Twitter every day. We have conspiracy theory videos on us. It's crazy.Lisa Kiefer:Okay. So I would assume that people are going to want to know more about you guys. Do you have a website or how do you let people get in touch with you?Ash Bhat:Yeah, so they can, anyone can email us at hi@robhat.com that's hi@r-o-b-h-a-t.com.Lisa Kiefer:And that's a combination of both of your names, right?Ash Bhat:Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. I make my social media incredibly public like, so it's @theashbot on Twitter and anyone can send me any question. I try to be as responsive as possible. And then if you want to check out botcheck.me like you can just go to botcheck.me, it's just a website and then you can-Lisa Kiefer:And you can download the app and use it?Ash Bhat:Yeah, you can download the chrome extension or you can use a website. We try to make it as easy as possible for our users to use. We've gotten recognized for the work that we've done, but I think from our perspective it's important to like also say that we're like just getting started. We've opened up a lab, it's just the two of us working out of our house right now. We've just gotten started.And so like the, the technology that we're working on to and we hope to release we hope makes a real impact in. We know that we're very lucky that the technology that we've already released has made an impact, but we're really, really excited for what 2018 is going to bring and hopefully what we can do in 2018.Rohan Phadte:We're not the only innovators in this space. There has been some other like great work out there and really encourage that because honestly the adversaries against us and the adversities against democracy in general are great. Automation has created a huge industry for adversarial attacks.In fact, there's actually some new research coming out for like deep fakes and other lip sinking, which is basically like you can use AI to modify videos and modify actual content and there's already Photoshop out there for images, but imagine deepex is basically modifying actual videos so it looks like someone else's face has been photo-shopped on someone else's other face and you get all those same expressions. You get it all the exact same like voices and stuff.Lisa Kiefer:Wow.Rohan Phadte:Like basically content and media in the future is in jeopardy. In fact, really, really dangerous. And so we want to find some sort of way where we can protect all content and make sure the content that you see is completely factual and 100% real because it can be very dangerous if an adversary gets access to this algorithm and basically photoshops a celebrity's face on some other celebrity and you can create these viral trends where fake news is being spread and you can have some really, really powerful consequences.Ash Bhat:Yeah, and I guess to add to that, the thing that really scares us is we already have people in positions of power that call real news, fake news. And the moment that we can't tell the difference between real and fake, we just run into this very slippery slope where those people can call anything fake news and we're not going to be able to prove them wrong. And so we want to build the technology now so that we don't run into that problem in the future.Rohan Phadte:Technology has made everything so accessible, made and use, so easy to read. Get up in the morning, just checking your phone and having the news app tell you, hey these are the top headlines. That convenience, that access is something that's incredibly valuable but it can also be taken in a in a way that can mislead, right?That you have clickbait titles, you have headlines that are completely false and then the content is actually like the complete different from the headline. And so yes, there's going to be some ways where the technology can be used in an adversarial way and I think it's up to technology to try to find ways to fix that again and make that completely a tool that is actually helping humans and helping humanity move forward and getting their information and not just become a disastrous tool that can be used to mislead.Ash Bhat:I also think like we're sort of past the point where we can go back in terms of technology like the Internet, like all these different services are here to stay. Like our generation like grew up on them and doesn't know a world without it. But that being said, I think the way we should be thinking is that with these amazing technologies, we've also created these problems that we should start thinking about solving now before they become much, much worse. And we're already seeing like the effects of that.Lisa Kiefer:But you're both pretty optimistic.Ash Bhat:Yeah. One we do think people need to start thinking about these problems now and we do think there are solutions in the space. Yeah, we are very optimistic that hopefully there's this amazing quote that goes "In the cave that you fear lies the answer that you seek." That's one of the quotes that like we should sort of share within RoBhat labs and, and yeah, this is a very scary, scary time in terms of technology, but that being said, we are optimistic. We might discover we might create something completely new that we were unaware of by like diving into solving this problem.Lisa Kiefer:Okay. Well thank you Ash and Rohan for coming in today.Ash Bhat:Yeah, definitely.Lisa Kiefer:And I'm going to keep track of you and I'm going to want you to come back in when you solve this problem.Ash Bhat:Definitely, yeah.Rohan Phadte:Yeah.Ash Bhat:Thank you.Lisa Kiefer: You've been listening to Method to the Madness. Goodbye weekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be back in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Datavest CEO & Founder Rob Nicholas Stone discusses the monetization of private data through his blockchain based application DATAVEST, a cooperative that monetizes user data and pays back individuals in the form of datanotes.Transcript:INTROMethod to the Madness is next.You're listening to Method to the Madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley celebrating innovators. Last time on Method to the Madness we talked with Block chain at Berkeley about block chain technology and what that means. Today we're going to be talking with Rob Nicholas Stone, the founder and CEO of DATAVEST, an application that sits on top of this block chain technology.LISA: Thanks for coming in Rob. ROB: Yeah, absolutely!LISA: What is DATAVEST?ROB: DATAVEST is a way for individuals to monetize the value of their personal data. LISA: How is that different from what's going on right now? Rob: Data right now is being monetized. It's being capitalized by some of the largest corporations. And they're able to do that because they have the ability to kind of aggregate all of this data from multiple sources from millions of users. What we're saying is that it's an unfair exchange and the value of your data, the data that you're providing to these companies is greater than the value that is returned to you and it's driving up the largest market capitalizations of the largest kind of Internet platforms.LISA: So it sounds like you're creating a meta transaction in which the intrinsic value of my data is more than just what I'm giving to Facebook or whatever.ROB: Individually we don't have much leverage negotiating a fair price for our data. There's a value premium when that data is aggregated. It's been difficult to find a mechanism for allowing individuals to share that data and benefit from the aggregate value that's generated by a platform like Facebook. One of the challenges we had initially was trying to figure out how do we value data is it a pro-rata share of current revenue that that's generated from that data. Is it the kind of commodity price wanted sold by maybe a data broker? or in the context of Facebook and Instagram and Google and Amazon, they're able to capitalize the value because this data, even if they don't know what the application is going to be in the future they're able to price that into the current value of the company. One way that you could look at it is looking at the market capitalization of say Facebook and dividing by the number of users of Facebook. And that's going to be a much larger number than the current revenue of Facebook divided by the number of users.LISA: I'm curious why you wanted to do this because reading about block chain technology the history of it, originally it was of culturally and socially revolutionary idea. Since that time about 10 years ago, I feel like it's lost a little bit of that sheen but what you're doing is sort of a throwback to that original idea which is that it belongs to the people. ROB: Right. I knew that everybody had this form of capital that was extremely extremely valuable. And I also knew that in order to appropriately monetize this data, individuals had to have ownership over the application of the data. And so the first two months was basically me trying to figure out how to provide individuals with how to give them a vested interest in the applications that are built atop the aggregate data that's provided. The first idea was we would basically issue individual stock in our company and that company would use this data and monetize it and capitalize it and they would have this vested interest not just in the current value of their data but also the future value. Obviously that for millions of people would be extremely difficult to do. It would be almost a logistical nightmare to pull off in. And so that's where cryptocurrency came into the equation through block chain, through smart contracts. There's a way to design a platform and issue this currency that is similar to equity in a sense, in that it provides individuals with a vested interest in the platform in the application. And so that that's kind of how I arrived at the block chain space.LISA: What is the problem DATAVEST is trying to solve?ROB:A lot of the inequality or injustice right now occurs around this asymmetry of information. Whenever a corporation or a company or organization has more information about you than you have about them, it creates an inbalance. The reason why we decided to issue a digital currency in exchange for data is that I see currency as a form of language and it's a means, a tool of communicating and exchanging value. And what's interesting about data information knowledge is when it's exchanged there's no less of it in the hands of the one transacting it. If I explain an idea to you, I still have the idea and now you have it too. There's a greater supply. There was a book called Unjust Deserts written by Gar Alperovitz and he lays out the idea of this technological residual and it's kind of the gains in productivity not attributed to say capital or labor but is a product of technological advance generally speaking, where it's difficult almost impossible to attribute individual credit for this social phenomenon, but what capitalism tells us to do is is ascribe individual credit for the product of a social phenomenon. Similar to language, a piece of data or a word has very little meaning without the alphabet, without the multiple arrangements of those words and concepts and so similar to this our data doesn't have much value alone when it's siloed. This has been the challenge is that that individuals don't have a way to benefit. It's almost as if language has been co-opted or or taken, monopolized by a lot of these companies and corporations. The reason why we created DATAVEST was to create a platform, a cooperative platform, that basically co-ops back this data and information that's been taken from us and allows us to benefit in this common language through this digital currency.LISA:That's revolutionary. It reminds me of Marx and Veblen. Where did you begin to start thinking about these kinds of ideas?ROB: Maybe Veblen, actually. It's funny that you bring that up. He wrote about this idea of absentee ownership when capital is invested by those not vested in the in the company that that capital goes towards. It creates a kind of perverse incentive. If individuals had ownership and they were also the consumers within a company, the incentives are not really to to maximize profit at the expense of higher prices for consumers. I guess another way to put it is if consumers were the owners what would that look like? Right now there's a there's kind of a movement applying the concepts and ideas of cooperatives to Internet platforms. It's called Platform co-operative-ism and it's a guy named Trevor Schultz. He's a professor at the New School in New York and he's written a lot about this. If you look at maybe Uber and what that would look like as a platform co-operative, you'd have the situation where the drivers and the riders are the owners of the ride share company or YouTube platform where the content creators and users benefit from the value created in a business sense by that platform or AirBNB owned by those running out their houses and those using it. It's just, it's an alignment of incentives that I think is more rational. If the economy is unequal for rational reasons that's one thing. But when it's completely irrational and I couldn't ignore it any longer, if if you look back at kind of the progression of capitalism from laissez faire in the 19th century John Maynard Keynes basically kind of saving capitalism in a sense by figuring out a monetary policy that could or fiscal spending that could increase employment. But in finance everyone always talks about inflation, as well, we need a healthy level of inflation. But when you think about it its inflation is really just a decrease in purchasing power and Keynes, his kind of insight was that it's difficult to lower nominal wages. But if you print more money you devalue the currency, you can lower real wages without kind of workers knowing about it. So it almost seemed like a trick. It's like you're tricking labor into thinking that they're getting paid the same amount, that excess profit from real wages going down, you know goes towards the owners of the company. And so the stock market benefits from that. Seeing the irrationality there, this plays into kind of how we've created our currency. It's not like the Federal Reserve where a couple banks have access to the discount window. It's every single individual has direct access to the analog of the Federal Reserve. You have a direct line into creating new money and it goes to you, not to some large institution.LISA: What are some of the challenges that you're facing right now?ROB: I think the principal challenge is explaining a new idea and trying to communicate something really that hasn't been done successfully before.LISA: Why did you choose the co-op structure?ROB: I don't know if you've ever used Apple Itunes. It's basically data as a service or software as a service where you subscribe to a service and pay a fee. We're kind of turning that on its head. The future revenue that could be generated by this data needs to stay in the hands of those who produced it. If you were structuring this as a C corporation where the data was owned by conventional corporate structure. What happens when Amazon or some platform wants to buy all of the data and then what happens to the value of the currency when all of a sudden you know whoever is acquiring the information the data decides to use that monetize that more for their existing shareholders? We've created a co-operative where the data is always owned by the individuals who are producing the data. We own this data.Companies can only subscribe to it and they never own.ID/BREAKIf you're just tuning in you're listening to method to the madness, a bi-weekly public affairs show on K-A-L-X Berkeley. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. Today I'm speaking with the CEO and founder of DATAVEST, Rob Nicholas Stone. As we continue our de-mystification of block chain technology and the token economies.LISA: A member of your board recently told me that you were the most dangerous man in America. What do you think he said that?ROB: So I think the reason why he said that was when I first met with him I laid out a plan for disrupting not only Silicon Valley but also Wall Street and fiat currency and how to go about creating a new non-sovereign alternative to national fiat.LISA: What's your background your history how you came to this idea?ROB: It came about in kind of a strange way. I'd done a lot of work in microfinance in Argentina. I worked at Morgan Stanley working kind of closely with their Institute of Sustainable Investing, so socially responsible investing and it was always about how do we direct capital to where it's most productive. The insight or the 3:00 a.m. epiphany for me was that everybody already has a form of extremely valuable capital. They're just they just don't have the framework to monetize it and receive the full value of that data.LISA: How long is that when that light bulb went off?ROB: That's about eight months ago. LISA: Well people are talking about universal basic income now. And to me this is sort of a workaround to that. I could get money from my data every month instead of trying to figure out a universal basic income through the federal government.ROB: Right. And we framed it sometimes this way. It seems strident to kind of imagine this could actually provide consistent guaranteed level of income to individuals but it really is, it is a private sector mechanism for UBI that requires no subsidies no welfare just receiving kind of the value that you're already creating. Back in 1965 Lewis Kelso, he is kind of the founder the creator of the Employee Stock Ownership Plan, and he said that the challenge of our age is figuring out a way that workers or individuals can take ownership in the technology that's essentially replacing them. Thinking currently about that, what's driving the technological advances that we're seeing right now? A lot of it is this networked data and so you could achieve two things at once, you allow individuals to have access to a form of capital and at the same time that capital happens to be the core ingredients, the fuel that's driving the technological advances that we're seeing currently. So it's a way to gain ownership over this technology for anyone essentially with a with a smartphone and internet connection is able to accrue value.LISA: Where do I find out about this?ROB: It will be on a mobile app so you download the app and you're presented with, we're calling them data funds, that it could be a specific sector or a company innovative new technology and you're able to invest your data into that company and receive an asset that's derived from that data. We're calling them data notes. Users will receive this immediately upon the investment of their data.LISA: Give me an example of a company that I would say OK I'm going to open my data to you.ROB: An example that I think really drives this point home is, I don't know if you've ever used Twenty-Three and Me? There's nothing more personal than our genetic information or genetic data and in companies like this are able to aggregate millions of potential volunteers who are or are willing to provide this and sell that off to pharmaceutical companies to create some of the most profitable new drugs or treatments or therapies and the individual is not compensated.LISA: In fact, we have to pay to actually do it.ROB: Right. What we're trying to do is create a way for individuals providing data such as this to drive some of the most innovative kind of medical breakthroughs but also be vested in the value that's created from its application and the application is great. It's just the fact that those who are creating this information, this data, are forgotten about. One example is that hedge funds are basically purchasing your data there. They're going to companies such as Yodaly that are transaction aggregators and they're looking at kind of trends in our spending and they're trading on that information. Hedge funds are really some of the biggest buyers of this type of data. They call it alternative data. Hedge Fund wants access to some alternative data, some transaction data that they're already collecting from us. What we would require is that they subscribe to access this information that's totally anonymized. They don't really care who you are. They just want the data and they want to pick up trends in consumer preferences and what people are buying and they're able to trade on that. So data in that revenue that they pay will be rerouted through smart contracts and this gets back to the value of the block chain to repurchasing the currency on the secondary market and compensating individuals who actually provided that data. This is a form of ownership.LISA: So if I'm a member of this, will I have like a little token bank on my computer and every now and then I see some monetary value?ROB: That's right. You'll have a wallet. LISA: So I don't need a bank for this. ROB: You don't need a bank. The idea getting back to kind of the idea of universal basic income is that we wanted anyone in the world to be able to gain access to this. Anyone with a smartphone and internet connection is able to start accruing this capital that they already have. When you kind of sit back and think about it, they're making billions of dollars based on data that we've provided them with. What we're thinking about is how to use our own information, share it, cooperatively own it, and monetize it kind of directly. The future revenue that we create at DATAVEST through aggregating this information is directly driven back into the value of the currency. As revenue comes in, that revenue is redirected into supporting the value of the currency.LISA: So let's say I have two hundred of your one of your tokens called?ROB: Data notes. LISA: OK. Data notes. Where can I spend those?ROB: Initially you're able to convert those into U.S. dollars. They're completely liquid. So you're able to exchange them for other digital currencies or you're able to just cash them out and we're using Ethereum. And it's done through Etherium. LISA: You're letting Etherium do your mining?ROB: Right. LISA: So you don't have to worry about massive computers. ROB: Right. LISA: Why did you choose Etherium?ROB: We chose Etherium, a technology that allows us to design a platform that works for us, because of the ability to design smart contracts that achieve the purpose of our intention.LISA: What is a smart contract? What does that mean?ROB: The reason why DATAVEST is using smart contracts is a lot of crypto currencies right now, they haven't figured out a way to have the off chain organization or company benefit the currency directly. So what we've done is we've created a protocol or smart contract that as DATAVEST as a platform generates revenue, we have that revenue going directly into supporting the value of the currency and that's done through our currency repurchase protocol. Which, it's basically like a stock buyback by a company where the company wants to return value directly to shareholders by buying stock on the market and taking it back as treasury stock. You increase demand, you reduce supply, and that benefits our end users and they have a vested kind of interest in almost a form of ownership in the platform. You can put anything, you could almost put anything in into it, any kind of contract. It triggers an event based on something happening off chain. So as revenue comes in, that triggers the repurchase of currency without any intermediary. So it's rules-based governance of monetary policy essentially. What we've done by creating kind of a cooperative structure with smart contracts is that there's kind of two extremes right now. You have the kind of purist crypto currency folks that they don't want anything off chain. They don't want to leave any kind of room for active governance. And then you have on the other side permission block chain, which basically means you know it's a corporation is calling all the shots and determining everything. We tried to find a middle ground where there's a democratic processes in place through the co-operative and there is a level of governance that can kind of manage the supply of this currency in a rational way.LISA: Where does the U.S. government come in or any government come into play here? If I'm a user and I start getting money from my data, my private data, say I'm starting to accumulate some tokens. Is that money taxed?ROB: It should be. It should absolutely be taxed. And the question, the outstanding question still for us, since this is really new territory, is how is it going to be treated? If you're being compensated for your investment of data, is that being treated as income? Or is that data considered an asset that you're exchanging for an equivalent amount of value? My opinion is that it should be considered an asset, a form of capital, and that capital exchange for data notes represents an equivalent exchange that you would be…your cost basis would be the market value of data notes at that time.LISA: Right. And so if they go up them I'm taxed on the gain. ROB; That's right. LISA: When do you expect to go live with DATAVEST as an application?ROB: Right now we're planning within the next six to eight months a private beta or a closed beta to recruit the pioneer users of this application. We're planning our full launch to be shortly after that ,hopefully within nine to 12 months we'll have this, you'll be able to start making money from your data.LISA: An idea like this seems very disruptive to say Facebook. Why do you think of Facebook or Google or one of the other overlords wouldn't enter into this marketplace? What are their constraints doing something like this or do they have constraints?ROB: They do and I get this question a lot. It's well OK. You're doing this you're a small startup. You have these billion dollar platforms that you're potentially disrupting. What prevents them from doing the same thing. And their challenge is that they were started in a way that the incentives between their users and the shareholders of those companies aren't aligned. And so the more that a shareholder makes, the less money there is available to users to monetize. So if one of these platforms, all of a sudden Zuckerberg decided to kind of monetize data for his users rather than shareholders, what would happen is, well, he'd get sued I think.LISA: By the shareholders?ROB: Right. They've created a zero sum game where –a situation where one wins at the other's expense. And so we design DATAVEST to align the incentives between those who are funding our startup our platform that we're building and the users that are going to be creating the preponderance of value of the platform. When I bring up the idea of capitalized value of data, just meaning that this data is being priced based on its its future revenue that it potentially could generate, the mechanism that DATAVEST is using is, we're issuing a form of digital currency directly for the investment of data. Data is an asset. It's a strange asset but it's an investable asset. When you invest it, you want to be entitled to kind of the future revenue generating potential that it creates. So we're not tying it to how much capital you already have, how wealthy you are. Anyone can gain access to this and actually the only way to gain access to this is through providing this asset that doesn't cost you any money. It's just utilizing and benefiting you for the capital that you already have.LISA: So do you know who your target beta is going to be? Is it going to be a city? Is it going to be a certain demographic of people? Do you know that yet? ROB: Yes. So we're based out of Pasadena, California. And so we're actually working at my house in Altadena. We converted are barn into an office and we kind of have an urban ranch and horses and donkeys and chickens and it's kind of a fun corporate headquarters but we’ll probaby have to move soon. But you know it's been good while it lasted but so we're thinking Pasadena just maybe an interesting place. There was research done that Pasadena will be kind of representative of the demographics within the U.S. as a whole and I think it was like 15 to 20 years. So we think it's a would be a good kind of case study or a good place to do this. LISA: And you have a child, a two year old son?ROB: Yep yep turns two March 26.LISA: Well I have to ask you..you're pretty deep into this new technology, block chain and the token economies. Do you have any particular fears for your child as we move forward or are you optimistic?ROB: I guess if you kind of imagine all potential futures right now where we are, it's difficult. I don't wanna be negative but it's difficult to see one that is going to make sense or I'm going to be happy with for him and that's part of why I'm doing this is, you have four, really four companies that are as Jaron Lanier calls it the siren servers that are collecting all this information on all of us. And you know one worry and it's not it's not an irrational concern is that what happens when one of these companies develops a technology through using this data our data, big data is our data, and using that to develop A.I. They're using machine learning and when they get to a point where they're so far ahead of everyone else it's going to be very difficult to catch up. So I guess my concern is that they do kind of have a breakthrough in this area. It's going to be tough to kind of catch up with that technology for anyone else. And that's going to only be benefiting the same or tiny kind of small number of people.LISA: So it sounds like your approach at DATAVEST is very democratic and an opportunity to bridge the you know, we talk about the 1 percent. It sounds like that big divide could possibly be bridged if everyone gets compensated for their private data.ROB: That's exactly right. And and we get rid of this asymmetric information that’s of companies whether it's financial institutions or these Internet platforms that are kind of using our information against us that we think we have to take ownership over it and be entitled to kind of the value that it creates and have that be shared.LISA: What's coming up for DATAVEST in the future?ROB: If we imagine that enough of us sign up and decide to take ownership back of this information, this data, there's an opportunity that once you get to a critical mass, we're hoping we can sign up a million users within the first year, that at some point you don't want to be selling or brokering this data to third parties who are then benefiting making all the money essentially. So asset management firms, hedge funds, they’re they're big buyers of this type of data, that would be transaction data, geo-location data.They're kind of buying this up wherever they can get it. And it would make too much sense not to take that in-house. So we've come up with the idea, this is kind of our Second Stage part of this, that we could create a cooperatively owned hedge fund. And the interesting thing about a hedge fund is most people can never invest in one. But the ironic part I guess is that everyone can actually own a hedge fund company. And so there's an opportunity that we can cooperatively own this investment firm that is directly trading based on our information and we're directly benefiting from it. We would have all of that revenue driven back into the hands of the users. And it's almost the portfolio managers dream come true to have direct access and intel from individuals all across the world be able to look at the trends, of the change in demand, consumer purchases, even pose questions. And the interesting thing from an investment application is that the data value of some of the poorest people in the world is actually greater than the data value of individuals in the U.S. And so if we're only monetizing this data based on this advertising model, that would only benefit wealthier individuals. But what this does is anywhere there's anywhere there's asymmetric information a profit can be made and that profit, and there's less information and a lot of these frontier and emerging markets that we have the opportunity that any intel or any information they provide on prices that they're facing is essentially tradable information, that can that can return value to those individuals and put them on the map and give them a form of capital that they've never had.LISA: I know there's going to be a lot of interest in this. So is there a way that listeners can reach you or DATAVEST? Is there a website? ROB: Absolutely! Our website is DATAVEST.org and my email is Rob at DATAVEST dot org. There is a place where you can put your e-mail to kind of sign up to be one of the first users of this.LISA: Wow! thank you for being on Method to the Madness and once you launch, I'd love to have you back on. ROB: You'll be investing your data soon.LISA: I will be investing my data. Thank you.ROB: Thank you.OUTRO:You've been listening to Method to the

UC Berkeley students Nadir Akhtar and Ashvin Nihalani, members of Blockchain at Berkeley, discuss blockchain technology and token economies.Transcript:Lisa Kiefer:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. Today we're going to unravel the mysteries of blockchain technology. I'm speaking with-Ashvin N.:Ashvin [Nilani 00:00:20].Nadir Akhtar:Nadir Akhtar.Lisa Kiefer:Two members of Blockchain at Berkeley. And before we start talking about blockchain, can you tell me what this organization is and when it got started here at Cal.Nadir Akhtar:Fall 2014. It was originally a Bitcoin Association of Berkeley. Get together club, social club where you just talk about Bitcoin, talk about related technologies, blockchain. But in Fall 2016, a man by the name of Tobias Disse from the Netherlands, exchange student, said we should start a blockchain consulting group. And that was when our entire organization changed.We went from a social club to several layers of management producing output, high standards organization, like a company. But the leadership is entirely students.Lisa Kiefer:In the paper every day, there's something about blockchain, something about cryptocurrencies; and a lot of people don't really get it. So can you in layman's terms describe the blockchain technology?Nadir Akhtar:A blockchain is essentially a ledger shared by multiple people, which any one of those people can edit. The difference is that you don't have to trust any of those people when making edits to the distributed ledger. Analogy I like to use is if you're watching a sports game and there's the referee; you can either trust the referee alone to keep track of the score.It's much more efficient to know what the score is at any given point, but you trust that referee to be correct, not to be bribed or to just slip up. If that referee makes a single mistake, there's no check unless you have other people watching. A blockchain is like putting the burden of keeping track of the score on the audience instead of just on the referees.Now, you can poll every person in the audience at every stage of the match after every game and ask, "Okay, what's the score now?" And then the entire audience will respond. A lot of people may not have been paying attention. A lot of people may be voting in their own favor, but if you trust that the majority is honest, then you'll always have a correct vote if you trust the majority, or if you go with what the majority vote is.Ashvin N.:So, a succinct way to put it in one sentence is a distributed, replicated, append only ledger. That's what I kind of go for. My one line, and then I'll use it to explain it to anybody.Lisa Kiefer:When the financial crash of 2008 happened, shortly thereafter, a gentleman by the name of Satoshi Nakamoto came up with this idea of an open protocol system.Ashvin N.:You're right. Satoshi Nakamoto, a moniker that we don't know who exactly he is, he created a system for a distributed, trustless financial network. He worked on that, and then a bunch of other people joined in. We had the buildup of Bitcoin and he called it Bitcoin, and then eventually we had it expanding on beyond that, and now...Eventually, the banks and other institutions got interested, but Bitcoin had been associated with some negative aspects, including the Mt. Gox hacks and the overall dark web and the trade in there. So then banks and other institutions said, "We like the technology behind Bitcoin, but we don't want the necessary negative stigma associated with it." So they rebranded it, called it blockchain.Nadir Akhtar:It was rather they focused on the blockchain aspect rather than the cryptocurrency aspect. It was called a blockchain and the technical white paper back when it was two words. When you thought of blockchain back then, there was just the Bitcoin blockchain; but then banks wanted to focus on the technology and what that could do for other services rather than cryptocurrencies.Lisa Kiefer:I don't even want to talk about the cryptocurrencies yet. I want to talk about the social and political revolutionary change that blockchain as a technology will bring to me as a consumer. It's going to eliminate that middle layer of business that I'm not going to need anymore. When I buy a house, I'm not going to need to get my title from a title company. There's going to be a massive disruption in certain industries. Right?Nadir Akhtar:The way I expect is that most of these third parties, they just serve as execution bodies. It's because we didn't have autonomous agents back a few hundred years ago that we had to develop these services like banks, like brokers, that would take care of the middle layer for us.Now that we have blockchain, or now that we have automation in general, we can take things that humans used to do and now we can make sure that those things are executed in a secure and unstoppable way.Lisa Kiefer:In the early days of the Internet, it was supposed to be this decentralized, very democratic system and it evolved into something completely different than that, where we have these monoliths like Facebook and Google and...Ashvin N.:At its core, it's just about decentralized decision making. That's all it is.Lisa Kiefer:What's wrong with centralized?Ashvin N.:Well, I mean that's the question, right? There are certain cons associated with blockchain. These include some technological cons and certain governance cons that you'd come in and are those worth, in some cases the decentralized governance? Is it worth it?Lisa Kiefer:So this is an open question.Ashvin N.:This is an open question. Right. I'm really glad actually that you brought up that it's analogous to the beginning of the Internet because it really is. You have everybody trying to assume that, hey, we're going to blockchain this, we going to have to blockchain that. Similar to how everybody said everybody had a personal website and everybody had their own little company page. But is it actually useful in some cases? Maybe, maybe not.At its core, it's decentralized decision making and that's what makes it so attractive to some people.Lisa Kiefer:Efficiency-Ashvin N.:I wouldn't even say if it's efficient. Right? In some cases, the way you implement a blockchain is less efficient. I mean it comes naturally. Rght? There are certain benefits to centralized decision making. Going back to Nadir's referee example, it's much more efficient for one single person to keep track of the score rather than having everybody keep track of the score. Right?Both in terms of memory and in terms of-Lisa Kiefer:Energy.Ashvin N.:Energy. Right, and that's another point we'll get to; but it's about are the cons associated with blockchain worth a decentralized decision making?Lisa Kiefer:Your organization, do you really honestly debate this?Nadir Akhtar:It's very easy to to bow down and worship something and not question its implications. The thing is that blockchain is unique. We recognize that it's unique. Blockchain is an interdisciplinary field. No other field mimics the way the blockchain works. You have to know from economics to computer science to cryptography in order to understand fully the implications of blockchain, but blockchain solves very specific problems in the world.There are aspects of blockchain that are more useful than other ones in certain situations. When you have a very specific problem, when you have this decentralized decision making, this trust issue between parties, that's when you want a blockchain because now you can have this immutable ledger that also comes to consensus in a way that doesn't rely on any single person. Instead, you trust this math in the protocol when you're making decisions when you're operating within the system.Lisa Kiefer:Can you give me a couple of every day examples that are going on right now that use the blockchain?Nadir Akhtar:Cryptocurrencies do come to mind.Lisa Kiefer:Define what that is.Nadir Akhtar:A cryptocurrency is a currency that's built off of economics, computer science, and cryptography. Economics in order to understand the behavior of every actor in the system; computer science in order to make sure that the information can be stored in an efficient manner, because keep in mind, because this is a distributed ledger, it's going to cost a lot of memory in order to handle all this information.We're storing hundreds of gigabytes all the way from 2009 on our computers in order to store the bitcoin blockchain, for example; and cryptography in order to maintain security and privacy for the people involved.So when you submit a transaction to the Bitcoin network, you don't send it to a single person who takes care of it. Instead you send it to thousands of people who all can act in your behalf to verify your transaction, but there's a certain voting process which is known as proof of work that decides who gets to actually decide what transactions go into the next block of the blockchain.Lisa Kiefer:It's kind of a competition between data nodes, like who can do this better and that's where all the energy use happens in the network. Correct?Nadir Akhtar:Precisely.Ashvin N.:It's faster and not necessarily better. I'm kind of looping back to your original question and I would like to make one small addition. Many people mistake that cryptocurrencies is like a financial network of some sort where you transact; but, especially as we've seen the industry mature a lot, it's not at all. I mean, all cryptocurrencies he mentioned it; that it's a system that uses economics, cryptography, and computer science to kind of, and a token to kind of achieve some purpose.I think it's an important distinction because there are cryptocurrencies that have a token associated with them and have a economic volume but they achieve completely different purposes. There's a supply chain one; there's a property deed one; there's one that tries to solve AI on a blockchain.There are all of these principles that's being developed and it's not necessarily just meant for financial network anymore even though it is one of the most prominent examples because it's the one that we've started off with. It's the one that's been tested the most often. It's the one that has the most underlying principles associated with it.But kind of looping back, we have cryptocurrencies, which is a tokenized network. And then we have supply chain is being tossed around a lot by these kind of big companies that want to get into blockchain. Then we also have some kind of medical records are getting interesting. Medical records, there's certain problems associated with that.Anywhere that you need, that you don't necessarily trust that the data either is going to be secure or the updates to the data aren't there. And once again, looping back to the general theme that you want decentralized control or decentralized decision making.In general, blockchain is being used to enforce accountability and reliability. Kind of like the fact that the data that you sent is kind of true and it's kind of secure. That's kind of where it's going. There are interesting applications being developed for the renewable energy credit market and then also in general, just overall accounting as being kind of revolutionized by blockchain.Lisa Kiefer:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Ashwinee Panda and Nadir Akhtar, members of Blockchain at Berkeley. There's that kind of an irony with energy because it uses so much energy. And let's talk about data mining.Nadir Akhtar:The fascinating thing about Satoshi Nakamoto's innovation when it came to Bitcoin and the first blockchain was that he changed the way that a voting system works in a distributed network. Distributed systems are something we've known about for decades. Research has been done for the last 30 years about how to make distributed systems secure and efficient where a distributed system is merely a bunch of computers trying to achieve the same goal as opposed to a single computer.The reason that this plays into Bitcoin is because every single person who's participating in this Bitcoin network is essentially their own computer, their own system, their own entity, and all of those people need to be able to coordinate with each other despite not knowing who each other are, despite not knowing how much resources another entity has, despite not knowing how much influence another entity has.In Bitcoin, you solve what's known as the double spend attack. The problem that prevented online decentralized voting, like voting on transactions in Bitcoin for example, was the civil attack where someone can at little cost to make another identity and use that extra identity in their own favor.So if I'm with 10 other people in this Bitcoin network and identities are easy and to make, I can't trust that one of these people isn't actually just belonging to someone else, that all 10 of these people aren't just the same person, in which case my votes as a single entity is being overruled by another single entity.In a distributed system, all entities should have equal voting power. Satoshi Nakamoto's innovation was to go from one identity, one vote to a one CPU, one vote system, meaning that instead of casting a vote because you have an identity associated with the network, you cast a vote by computing the answer to a puzzle.And this puzzle, you can't solve by hand; you can't guess the answer to. It's like a brute force puzzle, like solving a password. You just try as many inputs as possible until you finally find the output. And that's where mining comes in. Because you've restricted the voting process to machines, a person can't duplicate those the way that they can duplicate their online accounts or their online identities.And that is what prevents a person from voting more than they are allowed to because you tether their identity to the resources instead of to their online entity.Lisa Kiefer:So all these machines are grinding out this competition and that's the mining?Nadir Akhtar:Precisely. That's good.Lisa Kiefer:And that uses a lot of energy obviously.Nadir Akhtar:Mm-hmm.Ashvin N.:I would like to point out that there are alternatives. I mean, the cryptocurrency and the blockchain space in general has known that this is a problem. We've known it for a while, especially with the widespread adoption we're seeing now. We see it as a very big problem and it's gotten to the point where it's no longer decentralized. Right?And one of the very big points in voting, like when we decide on what voting algorithm to use is how centralized is it? Because in this case, it's gone to the point that you can only mind by having specialized hardware. They're called ASICs, application specific integrated circuits. And if you don't have one of those, you're not going to be able to mind successfully. You won't beat out anybody else.So what's happened just to the nature of an evolving marketplace is that all the smaller players have been pushed out, and now we have these giant farms sitting in China and India. China, India, Iceland's a very good one because they use their temperature to keep the electricity costs low. So we have that and it's not really centralized anymore.So there are alternatives being developed that do consume less electricity or consume no electricity at all. The most popular one would be proof of stake where you basically say that you have to hold in reserve some of the coins that you associate to votes. So instead of one CPU, one vote, it's one coin, one vote. And if you act badly or you lie about it, then we slash your vote; we take away the coins that you've put down.There are alternatives being developed and it's a big thing that we noticed. I'm just saying that, especially in a lot of industrial applications, they're not using proof of work. Proof of work is considered by a lot of people to be kind of an antiquated system. It was good back when it started off, but because they-Lisa Kiefer:It used too much energy.Ashvin N.:It used too much energy. I mean, what was the last estimate? It used more energy than Iceland or something like that?Nadir Akhtar:Yeah, it's been insane about how much energy it is.Ashvin N.:It kind of ties into the greater problem or a greater trend in the blockchain industry is that we are becoming more and more concerned about our impact on the world. You see it with a lot of people who want to be ethical. A lot of knowledgeable people. We ourselves kind of do that on our part by trying to propagate like the correct knowledge and how to do things.Lisa Kiefer:Who else is looking at this from all sides?Nadir Akhtar:Blockchain at Berkeley is unique and that's one of the only neutral arbitrators of information, being an academic organization run by students and not by companies. There are other organizations like the MIT Bitcoin Club, U-Penn's Blockchain Club that are also doing this. To my knowledge, they're not as prominent in the general blockchain space.Lisa Kiefer:Let's talk about some other cryptocurrencies like Ethereum.Ashvin N.:Ethereum is unique in the fact that it has decentralized applications called depths. Basically, Bitcoin does have that, but it's to a much limited degree. It's a very, very limited degree. You can only concern financial transactions.Lisa Kiefer:It's like applications sitting above the blockchain.Ashvin N.:Yeah. In Bitcoin, the only thing you can append a financial transactions. You can only say that I'm moving money from this to this. However, in Ethereum, it's built in such a way that you can append much more than that and then you can append full on application changes. Right?Sorry if I get a little bit technical, but the state changes are recorded, right? I mean that's saying that there's one state right now and then let's change it up and then that state, and then you can do applications. There's a Minecraft application that was built on a Ethereum. Minecraft's a game. It's completely run on Ethereum. It's really quite interesting.But going back to other cryptocurrencies, bitcoin has an anonymity problem that's been widespread without. Rather than being truly anonymous, it's tied to a mask instead. That's the best way I can say it, that it's like everybody's wearing a mask.Everybody still knows that there's a specific person associated with the mask. They just don't know who's behind the mask. And that's kind of the definition of pseudo anonymous. But there are other applications. Monero, Zcash, that try to make things truly anonymous so you can't trace any type of transaction amount or in between the participants, except for the participants.And then there are other things. There are all these new alt coins coming out that try to solve other problems. For a long time, there has been a problem with AI and blockchain because those are the two sort of big buzz words going on. So, let's do AI on blockchain. There are a lot of cryptocurrencies that try to solve AI on blockchain.Lisa Kiefer:What would that mean to use AI on the blockchain?Nadir Akhtar:AI and blockchain serve two different purposes. The issue is whether or not using one can facilitate the accomplishments of the other. AI is in data analysis and processing and blockchain is in data storage and agreement. Let's say that it's 2200 and I want to make a supreme overlord that is an AI, something that is making decisions for all humans.But I don't want to put this decision making power in the hands of any single computer. So I create an AI that lives on top of a blockchain. So on one hand, you have what looks like just a single entity that's running this AI; but in actuality, it's a blockchain network. And every update to this blockchain is an updates to either the AI's model, so to say, its decision making strategies or an update to the actual decisions, the computation that the AI has done.Lisa Kiefer:Could it keep the AI ethical?Nadir Akhtar:Well, that's all in the hands of the people who run the end points, who control the blockchain notes.Ashvin N.:A lot of people say that blockchain will eliminate the middle layer or increase trust or make sure that we all can live in harmony; and the reality is it's just as susceptible to corruption or anything like that as other people.Lisa Kiefer:I thought it has never up to today, it has not been corrupted.Nadir Akhtar:It's never been corrupted in that the math and protocol behind blockchain is secure. The difference is that if you don't trust the end points when you're dealing with things like supply chain, then in that sense you can corrupt the blockchain.A blockchain doesn't facilitate the transfer of information from the real world to the virtual world. It doesn't stand behind some person who's inputting data into a computer, but what it does is ensure that it's much easier in this virtual landscape to keep information accurate and uncorrupted once it's been inserted into the blockchain.Ashvin N.:And then I think it's important to realize that it's not really developed yet. We had the Ethereum, the Dow hack of 2016 that resulted in over... I forgot the exact amount. A certain amount lost. We had the Japanese exchange that was hacked a week ago.It really comes down to the fact that blockchain allows for a secure or efficient way to distribute and decide about information, but whether that information is correct or not, or whether you can control the voters, that's completely up to kind of whoever's in the system. It's unique in the fact that the voters don't have to trust each other, but there's also problems associated with the network as a whole.Lisa Kiefer:Right now, if you're on Facebook or Amazon or Google, my life's history, if I use those monoliths, if they have it, they use it, they make money on it. Will blockchain enable people to monetize their private data, get paid for our personal data via blockchain? Is that a possibility?Nadir Akhtar:There's a lot of research going into this. It's tricky to say, for the reason that I haven't seen anyone yet successfully do it; or if they've done it, it's too early to tell whether it be successful. Traditionally, Facebook stores your password, stores your email address, stores all the information.With blockchain, you're responsible for holding on to that information yourself. It takes the burden off of a central organization and puts it on the user. The issue is that if the user isn't securing their own information correctly, it's just as vulnerable, if not worse. Right? We sort of enter a social contract when we go with these big companies because they handle a lot of stuff in exchange for a lot of free stuff.Lisa Kiefer:So I would get value for my data, but I would also have to really manage it and make sure no one steals it, and how many people know how to do that? The regular layperson.Ashvin N.:Right. It comes to problem when you see people... If you ever browse certain support forums, they'll say, "I lost my pass- or private key in this case. How do I get my money back?" Or our one thing is that we've seen due to adoption of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, we've seen a big jump in hackers and there are certain security protocols.When somebody posts that, "Hey, I got hacked." And at that point, there's nobody to blame. I wouldn't say nobody to blame but yourself; nobody can help you. There's research being done in, about account recovery and so forth. But at this point, like I said, there's no organization that's going to hold your hand and say, "It's OK, let me refund you."Lisa Kiefer:Is this where a regulatory body comes in or some sort of a governmental controls?Nadir Akhtar:That's the very funny thing about blockchain. When you say we want to put regulations on this deregulated network, there's always this conflict between putting the trust on the end points, the users, letting them make their own decisions freely or having some centralized or central-ish entity that makes decisions on behalf of all of the users.There was this one project, it was an ICO or initial coin offering known as Tezos. What Tezos wanted to do was put governance on the blockchain. When Bitcoin and Ethereum undergo changes, it's an informal process; sort of like an ad hoc group of people who know what's going on, who say, "Yes, I think we should do this. Yes, I think we should increase the block size," for example, to allow for more transactions per second. "Yes, I think we should change the way that we read information in a block or whatever it may be."Typically we say, we go on to some forum online, make a post about what we want to change and everyone says, "All right, I'm going to update my software at this point." What Tezos wanted to do was make rules about the rules. In other words, you vote within the blockchain about what the rules are governing, that voting process and the blockchain instead of having to do it outside of the scope of the technology itself.Lisa Kiefer:How did that work out?Nadir Akhtar:It's funny. Tezos has actually been sued twice. In summary, Tezos was not actually producing what they said they would be producing. They said, "Here's our plans for the future, here's our expectations, here's how much funding we need," and people paid them because it did sound like a good project.There's a lot of problems that can be solved with the solutions that Tezos was proposing. The issue is that once the developers have millions of dollars in their hand, they don't really want to work.Ashvin N.:So going back to Tezos, right? It's still doesn't solve the issue we're talking about. It's a big problem we see in ICOs because there's whales coming in with massive amount of money and then they'll manipulate the market. Nobody's going to control them. Nobody can control them because it's a decentralized network and then even in Tezos, even if you have to do Tezos, you have to get the entire community or majority of the community to agree that this person's bad and then they can always subvert the system by creating another identity.Just because of the nature of blockchain, it's very, very hard to introduce any kind of regular oversight. The only way that governments have successfully been able to do it is that these end points that we keep talking about, like where you get into this space where you buy a coin or so forth, those can be regulated.The most prominent ones, if the view is neo coin base is where you buy it though Coinbase has succeeded to federal oversight on multiple times and they have started giving it over records and so forth. It goes back to the fact that blockchain itself isn't inherently suspect free or anything.All it does is that it makes sure that the system itself, there's a... I guess the best word would be error free and then however the users act, that's up to the users.Lisa Kiefer:Tt sounds like there's a lot of challenges; but do you think in the long run, blockchain is going to be a standard and if so, how many years are we talking about?Nadir Akhtar:I don't want to replace every single database with a blockchain for the reason that I wouldn't replace every single mode of transportation with an airplane. Airplanes are very good at doing some things, like transporting passengers quickly and boats are very good at transporting large amounts of cargo. Each one serves its own purpose.Similarly, blockchains, they serve their own specific purpose just as centralized databases do, just as a distributed but fault free or nonpublic systems do as well. I think blockchains could be a standard when it comes to eliminating third parties. I do believe that.The only reason that we haven't done it yet is because we just didn't have the capability to remove the human execution error that we have dealt with for the past few thousand years as a species. Once we have enough research done to where we can make secure regulatory bodies through a blockchain, I do think that they will be the standard for the middle layer of trust that we have put in these third parties.Ashvin N.:You'll never actually know that a blockchain exists behind your application and you never should. Blockchain, for better or for worse, is very much a back end technology, for those familiar with computer science terms. It's the way to make a database more resistant and more secure, but you'll never know it. Will blockchain become a standard? No, not necessarily.One concern that I personally have is that I have yet to see a good use case other than a financial network. One that's fully developed out or so forth, and then governments will never want their money to be on a blockchain.Bitcoin, for better or for worse, is a financial network that does really well. Ethereum is a distributed computer, but there are certain problems with their end that have yet to be addressed. People are jumping on the hype and saying blockchain will rule the world. No, it won't. We really won't.Blockchain at best will improve the efficiency and security of several already existing applications and that'll be a go. But once again, blockchain is not meant for the end user to directly interact. They'll interact with an application and then the database, the application associated with it, will be a blockchain.All you hear about Bitcoin is one of two things. "Hey, it's super volatile. I made 10x money." Or that you heard that, "Hey, somebody got hacked." I mean, there's been a very big negative stigma and that's been a limiting factor for company adoption and also people are doing it.Chase has been in the market. JP Morgan has been in the blockchain one for almost two years now. They had developed their own private blockchain. IBM-Lisa Kiefer:Do these blockchains communicate with each other? Can they?Nadir Akhtar:They can.Ashvin N.:There's two separate you can do it. You can either do it with a main chain and associated side chains or you can have completely separate chains that interact with each other. IBM sponsors a research group slash set of products called hyperledger and they're all meant to interact with each other. So interesting capabilities there.Companies are slowly adopting it. Currently, there's a bad stigma associated with it. A lot of lack of talent is another big thing that companies-Lisa Kiefer:Oh, interesting.Ashvin N.:Yeah, companies are hiring up. If you want to get money real quick, if you want to get a good six figure salary, become a blockchain dev. There are tons of resources available, including our own dev courses that we kind of provide.Lisa Kiefer:Tell me what your organization offers the community both on the campus and outside of Berkeley.Nadir Akhtar:We have three main departments, each of which has their own vision and mission. We have education, which as the name implies is focused on teaching people, but not just students; entire communities, companies, anyone who is dealing with blockchain, we want to educate. We have two courses that we teach on the UC Berkeley campus. You actually can take the course online this coming May when it's going to be released on edX. It will be the first blockchain crypto course fully on edX.We actually are developing certifications for different parts of the blockchain space. We have certificates for blockchain fundamentals, for blockchain developers, for blockchain consultants or researchers, and these certificates are tests of knowledge similar to the SAT. It's a standardized test that says whether or not you have the aptitude to understand some aspect of blockchain.This certificate I mentioned related with edX is a certificate of completion saying that yes, you have actually gone through this online course as opposed to just going through a bunch of YouTube videos and now claiming to be an expert. We have the consulting branch, which does work with companies and trains internal members, devs, and consultants.The consulting branch has worked with Airbus, Qualcomm, BMW, and going to be working with more of this coming semester to build real projects that are used by these companies. We've also worked a lot on internal projects. This one pharmaceutical problem, a supply chain, the U.S. passed a bill saying that by 2022, 23, all pharmaceuticals, the entire supply chain needs to be recorded and tracked in an immutable, auditable way. Right?Naturally, blockchain lends itself easily to that, which is another project we worked on internally.Ashvin N.:Then the third department is research. Research and development, R and D. These work on solving several fundamental questions and issues that are still prevalent in the research space. We are currently partnering with the Kyber Network, which is a distributed exchange and also that we're working with Ethereum foundation to start working on some of the scalability issues.We try to be an all in one company and we try to do everything at once; and so we provide education to our members, both to the public in general and to companies as well. We kind of develop software and developed products and then we also do research. We do have events for all levels, all ranges of knowledge; from beginner all the way to end and then if you do want to jump into the deep end, it's not hard. We do have our previous courses available on an archive so you can just go and look through those.Nadir Akhtar:You can actually audit our courses here at Berkeley for free. Conveniently for those who have work, there is the blockchain fundamentals course on Saturdays 2:00 to 4:00PM that I and others are teaching, from Blockchain in Berkeley. We have the blockchain for developers course as well. If you're interested in those events, that education hosts, just go to blockchain dot berkeley dot e-d-u; and check out the education tab.Lisa Kiefer:And you can find out about all this stuff you just talked about. Thank you for coming in.Nadir Akhtar:My pleasure.Lisa Kiefer:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes University. We'll see you in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Center for Carbon Removal co-founders Noah Deich and Giana Amador, a non-partisan, non-profit organization based in Oakland working to clean up carbon pollution from the air, discuss carbon removal solutions happening today in the U.S. and around the world, such as carbon farming and carbon capture & sequestration, profitable and sustainable ways to reverse CO2 rise.Transcript:Lisa Kiefer:Method to the Madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness, a public affairs show on KALX Berkeley celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm interviewing the co-founders of the Center for Carbon Removal, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization based in Oakland. Working to clean up carbon pollution from the air. I'll be speaking with managing director Giana Amador and executive director. Noah Deich.This year the concentration of carbon in our atmosphere is up to 410 parts per million, maybe it's higher at this moment. And there's a lot more carbon baked in. This can't be a more exciting time for you guys to be doing your work. Can you tell us what the mission of your organization is? And that's the center for Carbon Removal.Noah Deich:Yeah. Thank you again for hosting us. Excited to be here. We got our start here in Berkeley, not far away from this studio. And so, it's exciting to be back on campus. But yes. Our mission is exactly that. There's too much carbon in the atmosphere. It's causing climate change. And we need to figure out how to clean up some of that carbon from the atmosphere, as well as figuring out strategies for stopping additional carbon from being added.Lisa Kiefer:How is it that you do this?Noah Deich:So, in downtown Oakland, what we do is work to catalyze the development of a whole range of different solutions for cleaning up carbon from the air.Lisa Kiefer:They call you a think and do tank.Noah Deich:Exactly. Our goal is to have a range of businesses and new enterprises flourish in this space. We look at both natural solutions, so photosynthesis.Lisa Kiefer:Carbon farming.Noah Deich:Exactly. The oldest technology in the book to take carbon out of the atmosphere, but as well as technological options. In the same way that plants use biology and photosynthesis to clean up carbon from the air, machines can do a similar type of filtering CO2 from the atmosphere, pulling it back out. And we work to create innovations in both the way that we manage land and in the technologies that we deploy to clean up carbon.Lisa Kiefer:But you are policy people, right? Am I right about that? You're not actually scientists, you're working with scientists to get this on a political agendas?Noah Deich:Exactly. So business and policy, both are critical in addition to the science. And it's those three pillars of activity that are going to help inform the smart way to clean up carbon from the atmosphere. And in a way that's not just smart on paper, but actually benefits the communities around the world that build. And then deploy these new innovations and businesses that clean up that CO2.Lisa Kiefer:I feel like it's an urgent topic and the Paris Agreements aren't going to fulfill what we need to have done by 2030. Two words that cause a lot of problems politically. Let's stop thinking about it as climate change. It's a waste product that we have to take care of.Giana Amador:I think we tried to really take on that solutions oriented frame and say, you know, carbon is something that makes up all parts of our life. It makes up plants, it makes up you and me. And so, by being able to harness that carbon and take it from the atmosphere where it doesn't belong, and turn it into our soils and make our lands more productive, and use it to make valuable products like cements and plastics, really gives us the opportunity to harness that liability and make it an asset.Lisa Kiefer:Instead of feeling bad about it or feeling guilty, it becomes a product that is recyclable.Noah Deich:Exactly. It's turning something that's a waste into something that's valued. We have to not just talk about that. We actually have to show the way. And help people understand the different ways that they can take action.Lisa Kiefer:So, what's happening right now, who's doing some demonstrable projects?Noah Deich:So, I actually got the opportunity to go to Iceland a couple months ago where there's a really groundbreaking project. A Swiss company actually has figured out how to capture CO2 directly from the air using more or less a shipping container sized box. They've teamed up with a geothermal power plant in Iceland. Iceland has all of this great volcanic activity, and they harness some of that heat to create power. They have a little bit excess power. This box is sitting at that power plant, taking that free clean energy, and capturing CO2 from the atmosphere and storing it underground. And they are working to essentially create this new type of waste management business where they are harnessing this abundance of clean energy.Lisa Kiefer:What form is it in?Noah Deich:So, it pulls it out of the air as a gas, and then it takes that concentrated gas, and it separates out all of the other pieces of the air. So, air is made of oxygen, nitrogen. And it filters out that stuff and it is left with this pure concentrated CO2. And what it does is it just injects that CO2 underground.Lisa Kiefer:And that's still a gas?Noah Deich:In a gas form and underneath the earth, the type of rock that this power plant is situated above actually reacts with CO2 just naturally. And it turns that CO2 into a stone. To carbonate mineral. And so it's, this is a natural process that happens all the time. The catch is that this rock is buried, so it doesn't have contact with the air. Or it would just filter out that CO2. And so, if you inject this pure concentrated CO2 underground, within even a couple of months, you start to see the rock transform from this dark black solid. It turns into this light gray carbonate material and it's amazing.Lisa Kiefer:Like limestone?Noah Deich:Essentially. That's one type of carbonate. And this is a different type of chemistry in the geology, but it's the same principle. It's turning what was once a gas into a solid, and it's permanently sequestered.Lisa Kiefer:What do you do with all that rock? Where will that physical limestone go? I mean, isn't it going to be a lot?Noah Deich:So, it's actually not that much at the end of the day when it comes to weight. So, we've put 2000 tons of CO2 into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution, which sounds like this massive amount. But there is more capacity to store that CO2 in our geology.Lisa Kiefer:Underground.Noah Deich:Underground many times over. The capacity is not the limiting factor. It's figuring out the engineering, the business models and the policy. And I think there are actually some really interesting ways that we can do that. Not with the geology but actually with our farming and our agriculture.Giana Amador:The agriculture space is one that's really exciting and really near and dear to our hearts. The Marin Carbon Project, which is a research project that's coming out of UC Berkeley actually, that is applying compost to range lands. And I think this is a really exciting opportunity, because we always read these articles about why beef is so bad for the climate, but the Marin Carbon Project is actually able to turn that on its head a little bit.Lisa Kiefer:Oh, that's interesting.Giana Amador:And so by applying compost, which is really kind of just organic carbon to these range lands up in Marin, they're able to sequester carbon in soils. It boosts the productivity of the grasses that are growing, that are then grazed by the cattle. And those cattle can actually help sequester carbon in the soils. And so, they're producing a meat product that is more environmentally friendly. And one that again kind of turns this climate change narrative on its head where it's no longer about us doing things that are bad for the environment, but how can we turn our actions and really help fix this problem?Noah Deich:It's really exciting to me that there's such a diversity of solutions. You can go to Iceland, which feels almost like an alien landscape, or you can go to Marin. And it's the diversity of solutions that's just the tip of the iceberg. We can figure out so many ways to harness our agricultural systems, our forests, our heavy industry, our manufacturing and our consumer goods. All of that can really change the paradigm of we extract carbon from the ground to make things. And instead we work to extract carbon from the air, put it back in the ground.So, one of the companies that's really exciting, and one of the fields really, is cement. Which is a really boring topic for most people. But it turns out there are more Google searches about cement than there are climate change every year. And it's a billion ton industry. There's just a huge volume of material that gets moved every year. And it's a big contributor to climate change. But what companies are figuring out how to do is take waste CO2 from an industrial facility, eventually directly from the air, and recycle that into new formulations of cement that are actually stronger and better building materials.Lisa Kiefer:Where's this happening?Noah Deich:There are companies that are all over North America working on this. There's one called Carbon Cure that has a facility, in I believe Mississippi or Alabama. There's a company out of New Jersey called Solidia, that they have facilities around the U.S. You don't hear about this that often, because if you're in the cement industry, the idea of being a green product is not always associated with positive value for building materials. If you're building a highway, you don't want a green highway, you want highway that stands up.Lisa Kiefer:That's the reframe that you were talking about.Noah Deich:Exactly. And so, the fact that they're able to make stronger materials that happen to be green, is an amazing thing and they don't even sell the green part. They're actually just selling a better product. Over time I think we'll start to realize that you can make better products that are also green, and it's that reframing of it.Lisa Kiefer:You just quit calling it green and make $1 billion on it.Noah Deich:Exactly.Lisa Kiefer:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to Method to the Madness, a public affairs show on KALX Berkeley. Celebrating Bay Area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Noah Deich and Giana Amador, co-founders of the nonpartisan nonprofit organization Center for Carbon Removal.What have you found to be your major challenges? You have a small staff.Noah Deich:So, I think one of the biggest challenges is the chicken and egg involved in not having that many enterprises out there doing this today. The real way that we can show progress is by creating new companies that create jobs and.Lisa Kiefer:So, somebody can go and actually see what they're doing and say, I want to do that.Noah Deich:Right? So, we spent years looking into integrated assessment models that scientists were producing. And even for folks whose job it is to understand them, it's not a clear and concise thing that's easy to communicate out. But you go to Iceland and you see a machine that's pulling CO2 out of the air, and you can see the rock that has CO2 in it and the rock that doesn't, it's very clear. If you can go to Marin and see a farm and you just look at the fence and the farm that does these practices is it has more.Lisa Kiefer:It's like night and day.Noah Deich:Yeah, it's amazing. And so, having those concrete examples is critical. But in order to get those examples, we need to provide support for the pioneers. In this case.Lisa Kiefer:So capital are you talking about?Noah Deich:Capital is critical, but resources writ large. We need to enable students to explore this and create new things. We need to figure out how to get entrepreneurs the support that they need, and the training they need, and the networks they need. And then the last piece is the policy. How do we get them the supportive framework the public markets will not provide. Capital? How can government essentially bridge that gap and provide research funding as well as early risk capital, so that we can have a history of plants so the private sector feels confident scaling this up. And we work to fill that gap across those areas so that we can create this whole ecosystem. Tackling all of these amazing opportunities for carbon removal.Lisa Kiefer:I know you're a young project, but have you had any major successes yet?Noah Deich:One of the things that was most successful here at Berkeley is we marshaled a group of academics and philanthropists to encourage the national academies to write a research and development roadmap for carbon removal. Scientists were saying, we need more research, we need more activity to commercialize solutions. But nobody had gone in and done the details of, here are the 10 research projects for soils. And the 10 research projects for air capture machines. And laid out what it will take and in what sequence. And with the support of that network of scientific luminaries and philanthropists, they were able to go to DC to convince a number of the key funders for the national academies alongside us to get that study launched.And we expect that to be open to the public, the spring time of of 2018. These big national academy studies, they tend to take a little longer, and err on the side of making sure they're getting it right and have consensus before they they release. But it should be soon. And that will really help inform the conversation about where to invest from governments, from universities, and even from the foundations and investors that are really forward thinking. And then we can move on from there into policy wins and investment wins. And that's where we think we're gonna see real impact.So, I think we've already had amazing success with some policy foundations in DC, believe it or not, there is bipartisan support. That's the hope and what we see is that where some of these solutions are hopelessly polarized, this is the type of activity that can garner support from both sides of the aisle. In particular, the idea of cleaning up carbon from the air and supporting these early innovators is something that's widely acknowledged by Democrats and Republicans alike. And we've seen that reflected in some of the carbon capture legislation that has passed through the Senate and been introduced in the House.Giana Amador:Some of the great feedback that we've gotten when we've been in DC and talking to some of these Republican senators or Republican representatives from states that are in the middle of America or potentially don't always prioritize climate change as their number one political priority, they're really interested in how these farming practices or forestry practices can help revitalize rural areas. Can make their farmers more money. Can make their lands more resilient.Noah Deich:And even if climate change is a bad word, people are experiencing the impacts of it. Whether it's getting more extreme droughts, more severe, we see fires here.Lisa Kiefer:Hurricanes.Noah Deich:And what we see is that the solution is what carries the day. People don't want to quibble about whose problem it is, who created the problem, how bad is a problem going to be? They want to know how do I make my community better with a solution. That's where I'm most excited about all of these agricultural techniques is they're not being sold on, hey, we're going to pay you to clean up carbon, farmer. They're saying, hey, make your soils healthier, more resilient. Make your farming operation more profitable, and open up new markets for these climate conscious consumers. Even if you don't agree with them, they're willing to pay a premium. They're not going to turn that down.And so, that's one of the real opportunities to help farmers be on the front lines of climate change. Whereas traditionally they have not been on in that tent of climate solutions practitioners. And I think it's a huge missed opportunity from past climate action. And a huge opportunity moving forward to figure out how to harness these solutions. Because I think the signs that we do see are very positive and as we start to get more intellectual support for exactly what to do, building the policy will, and crowding in the investment dollars, will really help.Lisa Kiefer:Can you tell me about your ASU collaboration? The Initiative for a New Carbon Economy?Noah Deich:Yeah, and that's the other big win. So the New Carbon Economy is a group of universities and national labs with the shared vision that there are 2 trillion tons of CO2 in the atmosphere that we have put there over the past hundred plus years of industrial activity. That causes a problem in the atmosphere of climate change. But if we're able to take it out and harness that and translate that 2 trillion tons into value, it's one of the biggest business opportunities that we've ever seen.That's not gonna just happen. If that was an easy thing to do, we would be doing it already. We need lots more research across the spectrum of interdisciplinary fields, as well as topics. So, we need to have the economists and the engineers and the scientists and the policy experts all working together to figure out how to unlock the value of that CO2 in the air. One institution can't do it alone. In order for this to actually get to the scale to meet that promise, we need to work across a lot of different institutions.And so, that's what we're working on with ASU right now. And it's not just ASU, it's about a dozen other research groups around the U.S. that all bring different capabilities.Lisa Kiefer:Are there any local?Noah Deich:Livermore National Lab is in the bay area, and they're one of the key participants. They've been doing pioneering work on this topic for years now.. And they're really leading the charge from a national lab space. The fact that they're sitting down at the table with institutions from across the U.S. that come from many states that are not necessarily known for their climate leadership, Arizona, Wyoming, Iowa, and Indiana that are necessarily associated with think California as climate leaders. But all of these other places are seeing the opportunity to be at the front of that new wave of industrial activity that also deals with our climate problem.And that's what's so exciting about that consortium is they're going to move forward. And with that leadership, and hopefully the work that other groups like the national academies and the the philanthropies are putting together, they'll be able to start doing that pivotal research and figuring out how to collaborate with each other, and build the types of research networks and mega science projects that we need to really understand and crack the challenge around cleaning up carbon.Giana Amador:A lot of these conversations are happening in a very siloed nature. Even in the academic community, technology developers, the people who work on climate science and the people who work on the kind of more natural versus engineered solutions, are all having these conversations separately. And we're really trying to pull that together to be a more interdisciplinary conversation. So that it's not just academic institutions who are doing the basic science and the applied science, but that they're making sure that the science that they're doing feeds into the technologies that the corporations are going to use, or the products that they're going to buy. And that the policy makers know what the research challenges are, that they know what sort of support people need to actually implement these practices. So, I think we're really trying to have an interdisciplinary, more diverse conversation that really connects all of these pieces that we'll need to be connected if we really want to make this part of our economy.Lisa Kiefer:It would be great to connect the public too. I mean, I envision being able to walk over to UC Berkeley and see a demonstration product. And as an individual resident in Berkeley, be able to invest.Noah Deich:That's what we need. And the question is how do we get there as quickly as we can and figure out ways for individuals to contribute what they can? So, if there are opportunities for people to contribute to a urban farming operation, for example, that sequesters carbon. Or if they're investors, if we can connect them to exciting new entrepreneurs in that space that needs seed capital. Or eventually are there ways for people to put their retirement in only companies that are aligned with this mission of cleaning up carbon from the atmosphere.Lisa Kiefer:Yes. And that way we can vault over the politics.Noah Deich:And in order to make that a reality, we have to create that foundation where the innovators are not just thinking about all of these ideas, but actually have the resources to go build out the things that can then get scaled up. And so, we're still in that phase of making sure we get the ideas into the market, not how we take the ideas that are in the market and really bring them to scale.And so, it's going to be a marathon. Not a sprint for sure, but.Lisa Kiefer:A short marathon, I hope.Noah Deich:Yeah. Or a fast marathon.Giana Amador:We're trying to make it as fast as possible. We think of this, the carbon removal field is something that's very analogous to the development of solar or wind. And so, we've been working on that problem since the 80s. And we're just now starting to see commercial deployment at meaningful levels. So, what we're really trying to do is accelerate that technology development curve and that solution adoption curve, so that we can help solve this problem.Noah Deich:There are clear ways that we can improve upon that. We've learned what works and what doesn't for a lot of these energy technologies and just the general advancement of relevant technologies for manufacturing things in smart and additive ways and figuring out materials that work way better than they did 40 years ago. We are farther ahead. And so, how do we stand on the shoulders of what has and has not worked and make sure that it doesn't take us 50 years to develop these solutions? It takes us much less. So, that we have the option to scale up the ones that look most promising in the areas that need them the most.We're convening universities across the U.S., and helping them identify what these key research needs are. And connecting those university researchers who are doing all this amazing work on the ground, with funders from corporates, foundations, connecting them to policy makers so policymakers know the value of this and what things that they can support when political conditions do change. That's what we mean by a platform essentially is creating that home where people can come and work together to get all of the resources that they need to succeed.Lisa Kiefer:Tell us how you came to start this wonderful project.Noah Deich:This actually started when I was in business school here. And I came to Berkeley just enamored of the energy innovation happening in the Bay Area. I was on the east coast myself doing more traditional energy consulting and passionate about climate change, but didn't see these big energy companies moving anywhere near as fast as they needed to in order to address the problem. But startups here in the Bay Area, completely different story. At the same time, the idea of cleaning up carbon from the air, it was this thing that scientists understood and had been talking about for a while. There was climate change discussion happening, but it just, it didn't incorporate this idea at all. And we said, why is that and how can we start to to change that? Is it right to leave this off the table?Lisa Kiefer:Were you on the east coast as well Giana?Giana Amador:No, I was not. I was here. So, I was an undergraduate studying environmental economics and policy.Noah Deich:And where we got connected is through the Energy and Climate Institute. It's a fantastic organization that is able to provide support for both student fellowships, as well as new startups. And so, that's how we got connected is through both a a fellowship program that brought Giana into the energy and climate orbit, and a small fund that helped new organizations launch out of Berkeley. Which is where the Center for Carbon Removal came. And we teamed up. And what we set to understand was how do we bring this conversation out of the academic halls and into business policy and civil society discussion, because everyone cares about climate change. Everyone knows that we're not doing as much as we need to be doing and we're not as solutions focused. So, how do we put this on the radar and make sure that we drive towards action and make the promise of all of these solutions a reality quickly?Lisa Kiefer:What's coming up in 2018?Noah Deich:So, a couple of really exciting things. First is figuring out how to get this university consortium, the New Carbon Economy consortium to scale. We need a lot more research, and we need to do it fast. So, there's going to be research roadmaps that come out from this consortium, as well as we'll start to see the beginning of the projects that are the fruits of this collaboration. I'm very excited to see where that goes. We're also hopeful that there's going to be activity both in the business community and the policy community. And one thing that I'm really excited about is figuring out how to get new entrepreneurs into this space, making money, cleaning up carbon and turning it into value. And so, we're thinking about how to build that entrepreneurial ecosystem, and leverage all of this Silicon Valley experience in building new companies to do that for carbon.The policy conversation actually might move quickly. What we've, what I've learned is to stop making predictions about what will happen at all when it comes to policy at this point. But we're seeing so many new opportunities for policy makers to create impacts around healthy soils programs, which are in six states across the U.S., and on the docket in many others. As well as really innovative carbon capture policies that both at the federal level and here in California. So, I expect there to be a lot of progress on both the business and policy front. Exactly where that ends up is kind of anyone's best guess. But I think this'll be a space to watch in 2018 for sure.Giana Amador:The really exciting thing is that we're seeing this almost turning point for the carbon removal field. When we started in 2015, we constantly had to explain what carbon removal was, what we're doing, and why it's important. And we're starting to see that conversation change, and we're starting to see carbon removal featured in more news publications.Lisa Kiefer:I read it in The New Yorker. The New Yorker.Noah Deich:Exactly.Giana Amador:And so, I think that turn is a really exciting point for us, because now it's not what are you talking about? But how can we help move this forward? The New Carbon Economy consortium is a really exciting place for our organization and for all of these research universities to start putting science into action and really making that business case for carbon removal solutions.Noah Deich:The resources that we see talking about this, not just The New Yorker, but other major publications aimed not just at scientific audiences but at the mainstream public and the business community and philanthropy community, that has changed dramatically even in the past year. And we have a weekly newsletter that compiles all of those resources. So, as a shameless plug to go to centerforcarbonremoval.org and sign up for that newsletter. And I think what we'll see over the next year is just a complete shift in the narrative coming out into looking at all of these different sources of action and activity. And that conversation moving to solutions, not just, hey, this is a potential problem that we weren't seeing or an opportunity that has not yet been achieved.Lisa Kiefer:Or more action oriented.Noah Deich:But yet here's what's happening and how people are seizing that opportunity and solving the problem.Lisa Kiefer:So, if listeners want to get ahold of either one of you and learn more about your organization, what was that website again?Noah Deich:Centerforcarbonremoval.org.Lisa Kiefer:And they can actually reach out to you individually from that site?Noah Deich:Yes.Giana Amador:Definitely.Noah Deich:This feels like the frontier of the climate change conversation. What we need today is pioneers who don't necessarily know what lies ahead, but are excited to go on these expeditions professionally with their volunteering, with their investing and chart new territory. And to me, this is the unexplored piece of a climate conversation that's going to be pivotal for our society going forward. And in order to make that succeed, we're going to need so many more people in this space who are pioneers in spirit, and are out there trying to navigate all of the uncertainties. But knowing that where we're headed is this incredibly important and valuable activity. For me personally, figuring out how we can get more great minds and fearless leaders into this space is the most important thing to actually achieve the potential.Giana Amador:There's so much that we can disagree about, but really what we've seen in the carbon removal space is something that unlikely allies can come together and work towards. And that's something that's been really empowering as we've done this work. Something that keeps us going. And that I see really accelerating this space at a level of progress that we need to address this issue of climate change. Moving forward, we should really work to expand the tent of people who are working on climate change, expand the tent of solutions, and really work together to address this gargantuan problem.Lisa Kiefer:Thank you so much, Noah and Giana for coming in to Method to the Madness.Giana Amador:Yeah, thank you for having us.Noah Deich:Yeah, thank you for hosting.Lisa Kiefer:You've been listening to Method to the Madness, a public affairs show on KALX Berkeley, celebrating Bay Area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll see you in two weeks. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

San Francisco's Magic Theatre Artistic Director Loretta Greco talks about her friendship and work with the late playwright, actor, author, screenwriter and director, Sam Shepard, who passed away on July 27, 2017 at the age of 73.Transcript:Speaker 1: Method to the madness is next. You listening to method to the madness, a public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Keifer. And today I'm speaking with Loretta Greco, the artistic director of San Francisco's magic theater. We'll be talking about Sam Shepherd, one of America's greatest playwrights who passed away this year, July 27th, 2017 at his [00:00:30] home in Kentucky due to complications of Lou Gehrig's disease at the age of 73. Sam Shepard spent a decade as playwright in residence at San Francisco's magic theater. Loretta, thank you for coming over here. My pleasure. And I just want to talk about Sam shipSpeaker 2: because I feel like if people pass away and then it's over, I have to talk about his work. And you actually worked with him for several years. How did you [00:01:00] meet? Well, I should back up and say that I had been reading about the magic theater in San Francisco my whole life. I grew up in Miami, went to school in New Orleans, Washington, New York. And it was because of Sam, uh, you know, uh, John Lyon gave Sam a residency there for 10 years, starting when starting in 74 to about 84. But that's where he wrote bury child and full for love and true West family trilogy, family trilogy, and probably [00:01:30] well undoubtedly plays that are going to go on forever. And, uh, and so when I got here 10 years ago, I started looking for Sam and he, he was, he, when you say you were looking for him drop, what do you mean?Speaker 2: Well, I mean, literally I got there and there was like no number, no, like it was there. It was a lot of fun tracking them down. And I finally, um, I went through his agent and Judy Dolan and she sort of was a great like guard dog. So I had to meet her and then she said, [00:02:00] Oh yeah, yeah, Sam will love you. And so, but you said you're on your own, you know, here's this number. You have my blessings, good luck. And, um, when we finally reached each other about five years ago, six years ago, he just, he was incredible. He was just so real. And so we, I was reaching it because I wanted to celebrate him while I was still around and you had just taken over the magic taken over. And I wanted [00:02:30] to do a shepherding America where we went through all of his major plays and, um, but I didn't want to do it if he didn't want to be a part of it.Speaker 2: And, um, so that's why I was reaching out to him. Boy, it was just something meeting him. He came out and he did an evening where he just read from his work and Lisa, it was incredible. And that's when we spent about five days together. And then, you know, he, he surprised me several times in San, like he'd just show [00:03:00] up. Um, and then if he was in New York and I was in New York, we would see each other there. So he was just, he was so incredibly kind and generous and I think, um, a lot of other things as well. But I think those are the things that you don't hear about him as much. Um, he's just incredible. Let's talk about his work just a bit because I feel like he's one of our greatest absolute rights. What is it that you find or found in his work that made you want to seek him out?Speaker 2: [00:03:30] Well, they're inexplicably, they are, um, not, they are plays that are not meant to be understood, fully digested, wrapped up in a big bow. They're works that are there to make you feel and to lean in. They're muscular, they're visceral, they're active, they are totally active. And um, I just, I got in a huge argument once with the patron, cause I said [00:04:00] Shepard is without a doubt our greatest American. Dramatist and um, you know, she took me on. What about Miller? What about Alby? And I said shepherd has been writing. He's, he wrote into his six decade, he wrote, since he was a little, you know, late teens, he wrote 55 plays. He wrote screenplays. He has five collections of pros, like the sheer magnitude and depth of that work. I mean there isn't [00:04:30] a canon like it. Actors kill to play these roles. I mean, you know you fell in love with them. I do. You know, through his work. I mean you can't, my introduction was true west and I was so blown over and then that led me down the path.Speaker 3: Are you crazy? You went to college [inaudible] you're rolling in the docks floating up and down in elevators and you want to learn how to live on the yaks. Yeah, I do [00:05:00] lake. Hey, there's nothing down here for me. There never was when we were kids here was different. There was a lights here then. No, no. I keep coming down here like it's the 50s or something. I get off the freeway and familiar landmarks. They turn out to be unfamiliar on my way to do these, these appointments. I wondered on the streets, I thought I recognized they turned out to be replicants as traits. I remember streets I mr member streets. I don't know if I lived out of her. If I saw [00:05:30] him in a scary field, the just don't exist. There is no point in crying about that as not been rammed down their lien. Please dear mommy, I can't save you and you can let me come with you guys. Let me come with the weight that I choose to live in the middle of nowhere. Huh? You think [00:06:00] it's some kind of philosophical decision I took. Boy, I live out there. Be Cold. I can't make it here.Speaker 2: Jessica Lange said that no man she had ever met compared to Sam. In terms of maleness, what do you think about that statement? You know, um, he had it going on until the last time I saw him and I saw him when he was sick. I said, what do you think she meant by this wellness? He is [00:06:30] profoundly male. He is. Um, first of all, he was a long, tall drink of water, man. He just, I'm, I'm five, nine and he made me feel small and that's great. And he's just, I mean, come on. He hunts. I, I can't, it's so [inaudible] reminds me of, he reminds me a lot of William Faulkner, the way they live, the way they drank their maleness. And what they said about [00:07:00] the myth of the American dream? Well, exactly. I mean, I think the thing about Sam was he was the iconic marble man.Speaker 2: I mean, he, he hunted, he, he, he smoked, he drank. He, um, he rode horses. He loved his horses, he loved his dogs. He, um, he was just incredible and he lived so long that he really did experience the west, that old mythic west and [00:07:30] the promise of the American dream. And then lived to see that promise reneged, you know? And so I think that, um, he also, he turned heads everywhere. He went. I mean, we'd be sitting in a diner and people would come up and say, are you Sam Shepard? And they'd be in their teens all the way to women, much more mature. Um, what was it like for actors to work under his direction? Did you [00:08:00] observe that? I knew several, and I think that actors loved him because, because a, he was an actor and a fine one, and he understood and respected the craft.Speaker 2: And so he guided with a loving, gentle hand, but he didn't get in people's way. He knew that if he laid a little path that people would find their own way. And so he wasn't a micromanager. He really [00:08:30] let people soar and find their own, their own journey to his characters. And he said once that he assumed that if you are, if you're doing this, and you must understand what I'm saying. Yes, yes. And speaking Sam's words like that's come on. Malcovich um, James Gammon, um, uh, uh, ed Harris, Kathy Baker. Um, these are people that were drawn to that [00:09:00] muscularity and lived for it. And it, I think that Sam and that work baked a kind of muscularity into the magic into Steppenwolf so that then it set the bar high in terms of what theater really was and what you needed to feel across the boards for it to be viable. And he never stopped writing.Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness. Public Affairs [00:09:30] show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today we're remembering Sam Shepard and talking with Loretta Greco, San Francisco's magic theaters, artistic director, Sam Shepard's association with the Magic Theater included 24 productions in total. He spent a decade as playwright in residence where he premiered his master works buried child, true west and fool for love. He returned in the year 2000 [00:10:00] to direct the world premier of his work, the late Henry Moss. And he had just written a fictional [inaudible]Speaker 2: book, which is kind of autobiographical in his last year. The one inside was published last January and he wrote it while he was sick, but he wrote it and it's astounding. The particle of dread was published a [00:10:30] couple months later. That was his re dreaming of Oedipus. And he did it in dairy Ireland with Steven Ray. It's an incredible script and his latest spy of the first person has just come out. It's being published months after his death. He was working on this as he was sick. He was recording it and he was dictating to Roxy and sandy has two sisters. And um, and it's my understanding [00:11:00] then his daughter. And, um, and then Patty Smith worked with them on both the last two novels to help that it, they go way back and they remained such close friends. And so, I mean, who does that? I mean I just, I opened this book, I wanted to look at the letters between Sam and Joe Chaikin before I came here and look at what he opens this with.Speaker 2: It's a Brecht who he loved Brecht and Beckett. This is [00:11:30] his opening quote. You can make a fresh start with your final breath. Oh, that's, that kills me. Yeah. He never stopped. The last time I saw him was the day before he left for Kentucky. I sat with Sandy and Roxie and Sam and my partner mark in Healdsburg. And um, Sam was writing, we talked about Beckett. We talked about where do you think the Beatles came up with the lyrics for blackbird? He was contemplating all these things [00:12:00] and he said to me, can you believe it? I'm still writing. I'm not stopping. I can't stop. I mean, I think this is the thing about Sam. He was profoundly himself from the beginning until the end. Flawed and damaged and chasing a dream of America that did not exist any longer and chasing the tail of his father.Speaker 2: And he did it honestly, humbly and painfully. And I love him for that. [00:12:30] He never made facades. He never hid. He was profoundly himself till the end. Yeah. What was your favorite of his works? Well, you know, it's funny, I would have, if we had talked a year and a half ago, I would've said Barry Child, because I have, I have loved that place since I read it 1978 and didn't know what the heck to make of it. And I kept reading and reading and I finally directed it and I thought, oh my gosh, it's like king lear. It's like you could direct it five times. Yeah. [00:13:00] Just start to, to grasp the, the depths of the meaning of that play. But I did full for love last year and I have to say, Lisa, it was like working on a Beckett play. When you work on Beckett, you think you know a little something and then you get in rehearsal and you realize you know nothing.Speaker 2: And every day it's like an archaeological dig and you learn a little more and you make a discovery and that leads to 17 other big deep questions. Working [00:13:30] on fool for love was one of the joys of my life because it was also, I mean, Sam never shied away from taboo. Right. So it's a love story about siblings and um, see this is where I see the Falkner connection. Yeah. Because the more you read say an Absalom, Absalom, you know, it's about incessant and family. It's about miscegenation. I mean it's about all these things and every time you read it you see something else, [00:14:00] a real artist. That's what you feel when you read it. It's new every time. Every time, every 10, it will be a new play. I really do feel like fool and berry child and true west, if there's a bottle that gets dug up centuries from now, those are going to be in it.Speaker 2: I mean, they're going to talk about who this country was and what, what our goals were, what our aims were and how broken hearted and yet undaunted the human American [00:14:30] spirit thing is. He got to appreciate the world's appreciation of him pretty early on. Like you say, when you met him, you sensed the honesty and the appreciation. He was one of the shyest people I'd ever met for him to do an interview for me to convince him to do an interview with Rob Harwood at the SF chronicle. I had to agree to come and sit with him and he, he detested post show talk backs. [00:15:00] He didn't want to talk about the work. He didn't, you know, if you asked him what is it about, he would say, Oh, if I knew I wouldn't have to. Right. And so he, he was uncomfortable in a way with the kind of fame, but I, you know, like [inaudible] I think he appreciated, the thing is he got that Pulitzer early, that was 79 for a play he wrote in 78 and [00:15:30] I think, you know, it's funny because he said to me once, I don't know what all the fuss is about those plays, they're just plays.Speaker 2: I wrote when I was a kid, you know, [inaudible] you know, but, but that wasn't him being self-deprecating. That's really what's really lad. And I mean he was so comfortable in his skin as a human being and as a male. But as a, as an actor, as a, as someone who was famous, I never saw him and joy that in the way [00:16:00] I did. Interesting that he moved easily between his literature and film and his acting and acting. You know, that's not easy for a lot of people to go in between those. I know. And, and it's interesting because he was up for an academy award the same year that he won the Pulitzer. And I think that the acting informed the writing and the writing informed the acting. And that's the thing about the writing. There's [00:16:30] not an extra syllable. I mean there just really isn't. And he wrote Paris, Texas and many other Oh, absolutely.Speaker 2: Films. So he really knew both sides of the camera. And I have to say the pros, his five collections of pros, um, motel chronicles and, and cruising paradise and dad of days and, and great dreams of heaven. Those, we would read them every day. Every time I was in rehearsal for live the mind for Barry Child for fool, for love, [00:17:00] for a big Sam Festival we did on a 70th birthday, we would start every day by opening the books and reading his prose, short little pieces that were all about this country and they are magnificent and a completely different discipline. That's one of the hardest, you know, that's one of the hardest short stigma. And I think, I think if there was one thing he wouldn't mind me saying is that he wanted [00:17:30] to crack the long form novel and he felt like he never did. He wanted to write something that was longer form and it just kicked his booty.Speaker 2: You know? And, and he talked about that several times with this before or after he had written the, the, the novel, the fictional, the novel, the, I'm one inside, and I haven't read this by the first person, but, or spy of the first person. But the one inside is like a little novella. It's, it's [00:18:00] naked. It is so unbelievably transparent about him and his dad, him and his dad, him and his women, him and his drinking. Maybe our listeners don't know about his relationship with his father. Maybe you can tell it was, um, I learned part of this from Sam. The last time I saw him. I didn't know that his dad was a Fulbright scholar. He told me his dad was a, was an absolute learn it man. And [00:18:30] he knew he was a bomber pilot. He went to war and he came back and, um, he, he was lost it to his dad and it really destroyed him.Speaker 2: Sam's, you know, his family was, you know, his mom was a rock and his, you know, his home was full of violence and alcoholism. His Dad, I mean, if, you know, lie of the mind, you know, it's a pretty, pretty, uh, close to Real, you know, [00:19:00] portrayal of how his dad died in the middle of a highway, run down drunk. And, um, and Sam will talk about it, you know, um, in, in, uh, in a variety of ways. But I think that his dad's heart ache and his dad's being destroyed and, and that being present in his household. I mean, Sam writes about finance and m knows it firsthand and I think that he wanted more time [00:19:30] with his dad. His Dad was a man of very few words and I think that Sam spent his entire life trying to figure him out.Speaker 4: Yeah. I grew up in this, this World War Two world where the women were continually trying to heal up the man, you know, and, and suffering horribly behind it. Now, I don't know why that came about, but I have a strong thing that had to do with World War II. These men returned from this sheer ROIC [00:20:00] victory of one kind or another, and entered this Eisenhower age and were devastated in some basic way. You know, I mean, almost all those men that, uh, that, that were of my father's generation seemed like they were devastated in a way that, that it's mysterious still and the women didn't understand it and the men didn't understand it. So the, the, the, uh, the medicine was booze for the most part. Boots. It suddenly occurred [00:20:30] to me that I was maybe avoiding a territory that I needed to investigate, which is a family and add voided for, for quite a while. Because to me it was, it was, it was a danger in, in, I was a little afraid of it, you know, particularly around my own man and all of that emotional territory. You know, I w I didn't really want to tip toe in there and then I said, well, maybe a better,Speaker 2: and he, he also [00:21:00] wrote about how you really never escape the past, the history. No, and I think that, you know, sometimes people think about him and his images stick dialogue, which is absolutely unparalleled. But for me, in all of these mediums, Sam is digging up our primordial pasts. He knows that you can't take a step forward without the ghosts of what came before. And he knew that as a young writer [00:21:30] and he never forgot it.Speaker 4: I do honor the ones that have come before me, you know? I mean, you know, it's ridiculous to think that you're, uh, you're, you're, you were born out of thin air. There's, there's, there's things that, uh, there's ancestors, you know, and uh, if you don't honor your ancestors in the real sense, [00:22:00] you, uh, you're committing a kind of suicide. Yeah.Speaker 2: Do you have a story that you can tell us about you and Sam that you wouldn't mind sharing maybe no one else in the world knows about? I'll tell you two things. One is that I had loved his writing for so long and when we finally met, I picked him up at the cleft. It's funny because I got him this beautiful sweet that was basically like an apartment [00:22:30] with views, almost three 60 of the city at the top of the cliff hotel. And I picked him up there and met him in the lobby and I was taking him to see a show and we would then spend almost a week together and get to know each other. But I was so nervous and he was nervous. He said he, he's, he was late and he said, I got in the elevator and I just couldn't figure out all those buttons.Speaker 2: And he said, next time I do not want to be in a fancy hotel, I want [00:23:00] to put me up in a Ho motel, right by the water, by the magic or just on the other side. And I was so nervous, Lisa driving him that I turned the wrong way on Franklin. I've been driving on Frank Lennon golf since I moved here. I knew one goes north and one goes south. I turned onto oncoming traffic. I was just beside myself. I was so nervous. There was no one in my life that I would have been more nervous about meeting. [00:23:30] And you know, we hung out in the theater and just talked and talked one day and I'll tell you, I just, I grew to love him and, and he, the thing about him is he was just profoundly real and he wanted to make sure I was too.Speaker 2: And so one time in New York I met him and I was supposed to go to a matinee and he just, we were supposed to have a quick tea. We ended up having lunch and just, and I asked him about Joe Chaikin and he started to talk about [00:24:00] making tongues and savage lab, which made it at the magic and with Joe and Lisa, his eyes brimmed with tears talking about how humbled he was to be in a room with Joe, let alone making something with Joe. And if you read their letters back and forth, you know, they had an extraordinary relationship. Betty talked about that time and then he, he started [00:24:30] talking about back at any, started reciting back at just off the, I mean off the cuff. And I was sitting there listening to his stories and I just, I thought, I don't ever want to get up. Like I just don't want to leave him. He loved making theater so much and he remained in awe of the masters and in awe of all those Irish cats. And [00:25:00] um, but him reciting back at that was, that was a highlight for me. Yeah, that's pretty great.Speaker 4: It's very interesting to me, aloneness. Very interesting. Because it's always this balance between aloneness and being a part of a community or a part of, you know, it's always been interesting from the very start is this exile. That's what Beckett is so powerful. I said, [00:25:30] you know, he's bad. It's all about Exxon. It's about banishment about being cut away. Uh, and then at the same time having to take part in it.Speaker 2: Since he had kind of a, well, he had a bad relationship with his father. Was he able to bridge that and get past that and have a good relationship with his own kids? I wish that I could speak to that personally. What I'll tell you is, man, he loved Jesse and Jesse loves him and I know all of his kids, [00:26:00] Anna and Walker. I mean they were there the whole time. And, and what I know is Sam speaking of them and he often said, it's, it's a wonder that Jessica and I turned out to have the greatest, most sane human beings ever and a miracle that Jesse is as extraordinary a man and father as he is. And Sam once said to me that just hearing the sound of his daughter's voice set him right every time. So I know, I mean, I [00:26:30] think that he was just, that he was mythic, that he was interested in things larger, you know, than a kitchen table story.Speaker 2: And I think, um, the size of him, the size of his is gonna live on. And I think that people are going to, when they think about the American spirit, I really do think they're going to call upon his, his Canon of work, which is unparalleled. Again, 55 plays five collections of prose. And he played [00:27:00] over 50 roles on film. Yeah, I mean it's just, there hasn't been an artist like him and I, I really don't think there'll be one. Again, are you going to be doing anything coming up? We're going to do something at the very end of the season to commemorate him. Mike, a big Rawkus memorial and when you say end of the season, but it would be in May. And then we're going to set an annual celebration of Sam on his birthday at the magic every November [00:27:30] 5th, and we're hoping it'll be like Bloom's day. Like everybody getting together to read Joyce on, uh, on Bloom's Day. We want to get together and just have a community where people just pick up Sam's work and read it aloud and that every year we can hear his words hit the air and be reminded of their power. Loretta, it's so great to talk to you about Sam Shepherd. Thank you so much for coming on method to the madness. You are so welcome.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: [00:28:00] go straight to heaven or hell.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: disintegrate into energy.Speaker 5: When you die, who are reborn into another body. When you die, you turn dished. When you die, you travel to other [inaudible]Speaker 2: planets.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: you get to start all over.Speaker 5: When [00:28:30] you die, get marked in the book. When you dry,Speaker 2: rejoined with your ancestors.Speaker 5: Where'd you die?Speaker 2: Oh, your dreams will come true.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: you speak to the angels.Speaker 5: When you die, he'll get what you deserve when [00:29:00] you die. It'sSpeaker 2: absolutely the finalSpeaker 5: when you die and never come back. When you die, you die forever. When you die,Speaker 2: it's the end of your life. You've been listening to method to the madness. A public affairs show on k a [00:29:30] l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators today show was all about Sam Shepherd. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll seeSpeaker 6: you in two weeks. [00:30:00] [inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Vishwanath Bulusu interviews brothers Ari and Andrew Cohen, creators and co-founders of Mr. Dewie's cashew milk ice cream. Started in 2011, their mission was to make a creamy, rich and delicious ice cream that also met their personal needs for being free of dairy, gluten and soy. Born and raised in Berkeley, CA, Ari and Andrew talk about how it was important for them to keep their brainchild local, and to use only natural, organic and healthy ingredients without any fillers, additives, preservatives, gums, or oils - truly homemade.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Okay. Speaker 2:Welcome to method to the madness and [inaudible] Berkeley 90.7 FM. This is your weekly public affairs show where we celebrate the innovative spirit of bay area. I'm your host Vishwa and our guest today, our brothers already in Andrew to help clear this and Co founders of Mr Dewey suction milk ice cream [00:00:30] like the studio guys. Thank you. Thank you. Great to be here. So let's start with what is Mr [inaudible]? Mr [inaudible], Speaker 3:you eat well, you said it in the, in the beginning is that is a cashew milk based ice cream that was created in my kitchen in Oakland, California. I should mention that Andrew and I were both born and raised for brothers and were born and raised in Berkeley. Went through the Berkeley school systems and uh, and I actually went to UC Berkeley, uh, as a graduate student in a Master's program here, um, back in the 90s. That's the past. [00:01:00] Currently Mr Deweese is, as you said, as a cashew based ice cream cause dairy free, gluten free, soy free, peanut free. And it is a like a Gelato, a rich, creamy, dense, intensely flavorful, uh, ice cream and gelato like ice cream. How did the idea come about? Um, the idea came out of it, you know, Andrew and I always talk about the, uh, we sort of joke that the necessity is the mother of, of, of invention. Speaker 3:In this case it was my own dietary issues that I found [00:01:30] back in, uh, the late nineties that I was lactose intolerant and also gluten and soy intolerant as well. And um, Andrew, uh, if I can speak for him as also like an intolerant and though he doesn't like to admit it as also probably Clinton sensitive as well, I'm slowly coming around. Um, and as a result of that I changed my diet and uh, and I, um, I started actually using nut milks, um, rather than dairy milk for say cereal and other things. And [00:02:00] um, started looking at that. The networks are actually really great. It was a Pecan and date nut milk that I put over hot cereals, which was really nice. Andrew, I have no background at all in, in business. And Andrew's a fantastic business person and salesperson and that's, that's his history. He started talking, we started talking about, uh, potentially packaging something like this and coming to realize fairly quickly that it really wasn't a viable product. Speaker 3:But what we both realized and, and I was very, very curious about was that it looked like it could make a really great [00:02:30] ice cream. So we started, I started sort of playing with that, doing research on it to talking to people, um, actually getting an almond milk ice cream from another state because I was so curious about it, to just study it and started making them. And as you can imagine, the first batches of these things were actually really pretty cruddy. But Andrew being a, a lactose intolerance individual who was Jonesing for good ice cream and that's this si where I jumped in was Ari was sort of the Speaker 4:[00:03:00] genius in the kitchen getting this concept invented really, because what I had found, I think what our, we had realized also is that the alternatives for ice cream in the stores, they weren't cutting it. They, they, they didn't feel that, that need, that w that I missed for ice cream. I won't name any names, but you know, some of these, um, well known brands that, not that they weren't good or couldn't have been good, some are better than others. Of course they, they didn't, um, say she ate the way ice cream did. And so the daunting [00:03:30] tasks that Ari had was to make something that was that good. And even though his first iterations seem to do, and I loved them, maybe I was just Jonesing so much, I didn't care what it was. They're, they're really bad. And yeah, he just, he couldn't get enough of them. Speaker 4:And, and we joke because I knew they weren't right. I knew they weren't, they weren't good. And it sort of drove him crazy, but right. Cause the entrepreneur in me was like, okay, let's take it to market. Let's hurry up because someone else is going to be doing this. So that's good enough. [00:04:00] Every time I would say to him, this is, this is great. Like don't mess with this because I don't want this to change. This is too good to be true. He would mess with it and it would be better. And this was during the time when he was making alternative ice cream out of almonds that has since changed over to cashews. Yeah, there's a story behind that. But um, I'll let rd continue with what he was saying in the kitchen. Well, I just want to add to what Andrew was saying, which is that for the first two years at Mr Dewey's was an existence. Speaker 4:[00:04:30] We were an almond milk ice cream. Oh, okay. That, and that's part of our story. So we started out as an almond milk ice cream. And as Andrew said, it took me about probably a year and a half of, uh, from, from the very beginning of just trying this out to getting to a point where we felt like this is, this is it, we can take this one to market. Um, and again, you know, I read all the ice cream books and, and, and tried to learn all the chemistry and really there's only three really elements that you can, you can pick up on in terms of how to make ice cream. And then I threw the book out [00:05:00] and after that, it was really just experimentation that we really, yeah, it was probably close to seven flavors. I want to ask something also that shouldn't, that one of the elements of this is that we had to make this, Ari had to make this, uh, without preservatives, without any additives, without stabilizers, without emulsifiers, with all those things that most about any gums was most other alternatives require, at least they claim to require, um, [00:05:30] to make it appear as if it is a creamy, like ice cream substance. Speaker 4:So to make his, uh, task even more daunting was that he had to make it resemble ice cream without any of those elements as well. And that also I should just say is that that's also was part of the mission, which was that as I said, the, the impetus for this, at least the very beginning was, uh, my own health and the health of my family and Andrew, you know, as part of my family as well. And so for me it really was about, um, the mission was about making a [00:06:00] great ice cream, but also making a healthy ice cream one that did not have any additives or preservatives or gums or oils or any of those things that many, uh, commercial ice creams tend to have. And as Andrew said, that was, that made the task a little more, um, interesting I should say. Speaker 4:But, uh, but that, that was important to me, uh, and to both of us. But it was really important to me that, that, um, we don't put any of those things in there because I really wanted it to be something that, that we as a family, that our standards are very high for what we added to that. So just to give [00:06:30] you an example of that, I mean, um, I'll pick a strawberry ice cream for example. Um, and this is representative of most of our ice creams. Um, it contains cashews, water, uh, strawberries, organic strawberries, organic vanilla, um, and organic cane juice, sugar. So there are five ingredients in there and that is it. If you've ever tasted ice cream before, you'll know you can, you'll know that they're, they're very flavorful and very rich and creamy. If you use enough cashews and you have the proportions correctly, you can make a great [00:07:00] ice cream without any of those other things, any of those preservatives or anything else. Speaker 4:You started off with almonds. Yes. And then you end to cashew. Why and how did that change happen? We found that to make the, the almond version as um, smooth and creamy as possible. We had to find a way to get the almonds and they had to be, you know, California organic blanched almonds and they had to be crust so fine that when you were to add water to it [00:07:30] and a most of the fire that you wouldn't need to use a cheese cloth or any type of filtration to try to catch any of the other items that might be sort of the fibrous materials inside the almond. So we found a company who, um, satisfied that requirement. They make a nut butters and they also have a, um, an almond paste they can make for us. They take this raw almonds and they crush it into a paste. Speaker 4:Let me just add to that very quickly, and that is to say that, um, when we started out doing this, uh, basically [00:08:00] what you do is you take almonds. I was literally blanching almonds myself, taking the skins off one by one and then putting it through, as Andrew said, a large, what they call a nut milk bag. So that you can so that it catches all the fibrous material. Oh and there was a point, I still remember this where Andrew and I were in my kitchen and we had made a larger batch cause we were going to do it two to do a test batch and so we had, you know you do a pint of it in the bags this big and you sort of bring it out and you get what you need. I found [00:08:30] a nut milk bag that I k the dimensions are probably like two feet by like three feet. Speaker 4:That's how large the bag was. We filled it with milk and it was like, it was like playing the bagpipes. We were trying to squeeze this thing and it took us probably like an hour and a half to get the milk out of this thing. So anyways, the point is that what Andrew is saying is it was a really daunting task and the day that we met with this other, there's nut butter company to talk to them about their machines and other and various other things [00:09:00] to figure out how to do this. We walked out of there that day, they handed us a, a box of their, of their almond butter and I put it through the usual processing and I put it through the nut milk bag and there was nothing in there. Uh, the, the size of it was so small that it just created a perfectly emulsified milk. Speaker 4:There was no fiber in there at all. And it changed our lives. It changed my life more dramatically, so we didn't have to do that anymore. And, and once [00:09:30] we got there is where things really started to take off for us with that. And we had actually just then with that batch, um, I mean almost literally with that batch he's talking about, we then made to, we're doing many things simultaneously while Ari was diligent in the kitchen, coming up with flavors using this, this new found paste or new found butter. Um, we were also working on, um, packaging, uh, our logo or logos and everything because [00:10:00] the idea was to come up with four flavors that we could put into a pint and sell at the supermarket. And we had, um, done some taste tests down at a local Oakland supermarket and they were very willing to give it a try and it was sort of a new thing and they liked it and the taste test went, uh, famously people really liked it. Speaker 4:They liked the almond version. We ended up, um, bringing four skews of our almond [00:10:30] milk to market in order to try to enhance our product line. We ended up deciding to go and add in cashew as an alternative alongside of our almond four flavors and almond and four flavors in cashew. Instantly realized based on sales, that cashew was the way to go because not only were they, uh, selling better and more and tasting better during our demos and all that at the supermarket is, but the almond prices in California to be a [00:11:00] blast organic California almond just went through the roof because of the drought and everything else. And so it was obvious to us right there that we should just pull back on the almond completely and bring those flavors into the cashew line. And I think all other flavors as well came from that as well. Speaker 4:Yeah. And I wanted to just piggyback on what he's saying about that as well is that as I started playing with the cashew paste or butter, um, it became obvious very quickly that it made a much smoother, creamier, better ice cream. [00:11:30] And so as Andrew said, once we went to market with it, it was pretty obvious that, that it was a better way to go. Started connecting to what he said previously. A lot of the things you mentioned in the regular ice creams, it's, I believe it's a lot of it has done also to increase the shelf life [inaudible] right. So how do you meet that challenge and at the same time managing to keep the costs? I want to actually want to comment on that. In that last night I served a [00:12:00] coffee ice cream that was in my freezer and Mr Dewey's come, Mr Mr Dewey's coffee cashew ice cream that was made. Speaker 4:It was manufactured in uh, December of 2014. It was, as I'm telling, I'm telling you, I should've brought it to you can see it. You got it. Yeah. It was as good yesterday. Last night I made a milkshake for my son. He wanted their coffee later in life. So we're all good so far. And Greens. That's good. Also. [00:12:30] So one of the things is, this is, this is just a throw away, but when we, when we were originally um, out there with our, when we were selling our pints, cause w eventually we ended up in about 300 grocery stores throughout the western United States with our pints. Um, one of the things that we chose to do was we wrapped the lid as well in a plastic, it's a safety seal, but it also seals in the air from co seals out the air from coming in. Speaker 4:So the seal is so tight that you have a frozen product that if it maintains it is frozen, you [00:13:00] know, a quality, it doesn't change. And so when I opened it last night, it was as good as it was at first and I'll answer a little more technically as well. The trick to getting an ice cream as fresh as you possibly can, whether it be a cashew or alternative ice cream or a traditional dairy ice cream is you have to go from the ice cream freezer. It's called, makes the ice cream from milk and into a blast freezer to a sub 20 if you can temperature as quickly as possible. [00:13:30] So you don't have crystallization happening inside. I see the more crystallized guests, the more it gets funky. Yeah. And even if some, a lot of it may not be bad for you, it just doesn't taste good. Speaker 4:It doesn't feel it's icy on the mouth and all that stuff. Uh, that's one, two, most ice cream manufacturers make their money off of what's called yield. And the yield is what [inaudible] after you put the ice cream, the dairy ice cream in the machine, it's actually called overrun. And if you're on the ice cream industry is the yield, [00:14:00] which is at, so the overrun is, is based upon how much air you're incorporating into your, um, liquid when you're actually freezing it into an ice cream. And so the more air you have, the more pockets of air you have throughout your ice cream, which can also, crystal light can melt faster and crystallized faster if it's not sealed properly or in this case, most people will have preservatives or, or you know, other stabilizers in there. Um, we don't do that. Ours is just frozen [00:14:30] fast. It's, it holds the proteins in the cashews are so, so much that they don't really even take in much air at all. So it's just a denser, easier to preserve. So one thing I noticed when I visited the store and I had been at night is the spoons with this feed, the ice cream I made of wood, I mean 100% of Speaker 3:the stuff at the store is compostable and you know, so tell me more about that. Speaker 4:That was very important to us. Um, it's, we first [00:15:00] started off with a, um, a quote compostable and quote, a plastic spoon. And we learned very quickly that they really weren't, Speaker 3:what was the city of Albany, Cambridge, you said it takes, it'll break down, but it'll take like five, five months to a year. And they [inaudible] Speaker 4:they won't take them. So I think it was in longer than that. But anyway, the point was was we thought, no, we need to be a green company. And so we found a Birchwood spoons for eating these nice compostable [00:15:30] cups. And we also use both for purposes of reusing and also for experience for the customer. A small metal spoon for tasting every spoon is kept in our freezer so that when you actually get the experience of the taste, it's not a, it's a, it's a cold experience all the way through. Speaker 3:Just a quick reminder, you are listening to method to the madness on your Calex. We are talking in the studio today with Ari and Andrew Cohain about Mr Dewey's cashew milk [00:16:00] ice cream. The name Mr Dewey is, how did that come to be? No. Yeah, no. Well Mr Dewey, well it's a lot of people ask. Many years ago, a good friend of mine and Andrews wrote this song called Mr Dewey. It was actually a great song, sort of an RMB upbeat song. Um, and it was, it was well done. And he decided he was gonna actually make a music video out of it. And, uh, we had been involved with them. Andrew was involved with him on a, on a music basis and he asked us if we would be involved in Andrew. Um, in a previous life [00:16:30] was also a videographer. And mind you, this was at a time in 1996 Speaker 4:when you still had MTV showing mostly videos [inaudible] and local cable stations would have a local music video station themselves or time slots for that. Yeah. And I was shooting, I think, I think I had just gone from VHS to svhs perhaps in my arsenal. Yeah, I know. Speaker 3:So they decided, he decided he wanted to take the song, which was pretty, pretty successful [00:17:00] and make a video out of it. And he said, you're going to be Mr Dewey in the video. And he chose Andrew to be the videographer and I guess editor as well. And yeah, I produced the video. Yeah. And, um, so we filmed this video, um, and it aired and actually believe it or not, people would recognize me as Mr Dewey out on the streets. And it became sort of this silly moniker because I played Mr Dewey and I played against character. So it was very, it was very funny. Um, over time the nickname just became [00:17:30] the sort of the silly thing. And when I was first during the nut milks themselves, somebody jokingly said, we should call it Mr Dewey's not milks. And all these nut jokes came out of that. And, and uh, as you can imagine, it wasn't, it wasn't pretty. But, um, anyways, it led to a point though where it sort of caught. And as we got to the point where Andrew and I were talking about what to name this, we continued on with Mr and Mr Dewey. Speaker 4:And that video is not who Mr Dewey is for this business. But, uh, we liked the name. It's been very catchy. And so yeah, Mr Dewey is just a fictitious character in a music video that the first time I heard of the place, [00:18:00] and this was almost three years or two years ago, I just got caught by the nail. Like, okay, this is a very interesting name. It's complaints. I'm just out of curiosity, I'm just curious, what does it conjure up for you? The named Mr Dewey? I honest, think of this umbrella man, like some guy dancing on the seat. Interesting. Yeah. How can the hat on? I mean that's the picture I get [inaudible] to do it. Yeah, that's cool. I have my own image of Mr Dewey, but it's kind of, oh my image. Mr Deweese is actually a m. He's my wife's first cousin who's in his sixties [00:18:30] and he's just this wise, thoughtful, generous, loving person and who gives to other people. Speaker 4:And to me that, that sort of what I decided Mr. Duke was it. We're a healthy option for people to have great ice cream and we're so we're giving to the community with what we're doing. So all along I thought it was just a logo [inaudible] so you pointed out earlier that you were sort of split out across western us. Yes. Right. From what I remember, you sort of cut it back [00:19:00] down now. Right's very local now. Well, you know, Andrew Hood had alluded to this earlier, that same nut butter company that made the paste. We agreed at a certain point that we would merge together and we saw, we started working with them and it was with them and through them that Andrew and I basically ran Mr Dewey's under that umbrella. Um, we got into, as we said, about 300 stores throughout sort of California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Washington, Oregon, [inaudible], western states. Speaker 4:And um, eventually we were [00:19:30] actually doing pretty well. We were ascending. It's a really, really difficult game to play. You're making pints and you're putting them on trucks and you have brokers and distributors and you know, the stores actually the antithesis of what Mr do was really stood for. We didn't realize that, you know, we're not this corporate structure. We don't play well with the corporate structure. That arena doesn't make any sense. Uh, it became very painful in a way. There was no control [00:20:00] in Europe. Sort of robotic. Yeah. Your strings chunk turned out. It goes into the pines, it goes on the pallets. Palletize the giant behemoth companies come pick it up and they're giant trucks. They decide if and when they're going to pick it up. They decide how cold frigid and trust are going to be, which scared he and I because our babies are leaving there and we want someone to enjoy that at the other end, and I, we said earlier with the crystallization that things melt and then refreeze that's when you get crystallization. Speaker 4:What kills it. It was not a good fit for us and we hung in there for [00:20:30] quite a while doing this until there were the crossroads and at those crossroads we had the option to take back the company. We ended up purchasing back and re owning our brand asset and really take a big risk because doing that we also took it off all shelves. We were not manufacturing [inaudible] and we decided we would only go and try our hat in a retail shop, which is the one on Salano avenue in Albany. And then also try and get back into our local [00:21:00] grocers, those who are sort of non-corporate who just want us to be on their shelves for their local customers and sort of in the path of, cause I do all the deliveries of where I can maintain, you know, a an easy route. Yeah. Speaker 4:We got, we were completely disillusioned by the whole process and as Andrew said, our manufacturing facilities in San Leandro, one of our shops is an Albany, the other one is in Emeryville. Our distribution is everywhere between San Leandro and [00:21:30] Albany. So we can see it just makes a lot of sense for us to do it that way. It's the main outlet. I at it on that route for the most part. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, um, and I want to just give a shout out to farmer Joe's. Cause farmer Joe's is the store that Andrew was referring to earlier on some. Now given you an at this scale, where do you source your ingredients from? It isn't a giant company or something helping you out with that. Yeah, well actually in the separation from the larger company, what we did continue to do was purchase our cashew butter from them. I think much higher [00:22:00] rate, but yeah, but not a whole lot higher. Speaker 4:So we still have a relationship with them. I see they do a great job of sourcing, sourcing the cashews and breaking them down into the pace that we use to make our ice cream. And what are the biggest challenges you face now? Our biggest challenge I think is not, well, so earlier on it was trying to figure out how to uh, actually sell our ice cream in a retail fashion. Lot of hiccups and lot of hurdles and you learn and you learn. We're still learning, but we kinda got it down now. I will not [00:22:30] speak for Ari. I'll just be for myself on this one, that our biggest hurdle now is how to scale up. Again. We don't want to go back to that other model. We're getting very well known slowly that sort of the circle sort of going outwards very slowly and very methodically. Speaker 4:We were getting requests to have Mr Deweese in every city in other states and and we don't, we're not sure what to do with all that yet. At the same time, we also know that there's other companies or the people who may be [00:23:00] close behind us, so we think we were probably on the floor of the front end of this curve is trend. How do we maintain that front runner seat and not expand so fast or so far that we lose control of its quality and our face being big and fast. It's not necessarily good. And I think we learned that lesson and so as Andrew said, we're very thoughtful about how we do want to grow with this. Recognizing that it's probably a good idea for us to do it, but not at, not [00:23:30] at the risk of us. Again, feeling like we've lost control of this and so we're, we're thinking about it, we're talking about it, we're talking with, we're consulting with other people and, and moving forward with the understanding that we do want to figure out how to grow this. Interestingly enough, you know, when, when I think about Speaker 3:what are the challenges, sort of the day to day challenges. It's funny cause there's, there's a relationship to what Andrew was saying, which is that for me personally, I source all the ingredients for our ice cream and the hot, one of the hardest parts about this is that [00:24:00] we're a very, we went from being a very large company to a very small company, but a company that we're small but we're not that small. And what I mean by that is that, so when we're sourcing sourcing stuff, sourcing ingredients, many of the companies from whom or the vendors from whom we get our, our ingredients, they don't want to deal with us. Would you? So you end up having to compromise. You have to pay a lot of money to get ingredients that you need and you can't meet their minimums. Their minimums are like 10,000 pounds [00:24:30] of, you know, of cashews or cashews isn't a good example. Speaker 3:But like of almonds in our caramel almond crunch, as we scale up, that'll get easier and better. But for right now, I've been working with people for a long time and they keep, you know, I keep getting cut off by them. Like you're not meeting our minimums and so you can't do this. And you know, I was just saying today, uh, we're working with a company now who does huge amounts of of sales with their almonds. So we have an ice cream. Our biggest seller is caramel almond crunch and the almond crunch [00:25:00] is, is a as a dice roasted almond. And I couldn't find them. The company from whom we were getting them was, wasn't getting them anymore. And so I went looking around and anyways, not not to bore you with this, but ultimately we ended up finding this, this small farm that does organic almonds, but they export, I mean, you know, they, they sell in huge amounts and this guy just loved the concept of a organic Vegan ice cream. Speaker 3:And he said, man, I don't care what anybody says, I'm selling [00:25:30] to you guys. And, and I say that because I talked to him today. We're just today we were talking and he said, you know, I get in a lot of trouble with my staff because they don't want to deal with you guys. And I told them, it doesn't matter. We're going to honor this because we love what they're doing. And that, that's, that's the cool side of it. The hard side is that on any given day, we're constantly negotiating to get our needs met with our ingredients. That's what any cool story from, you know, the fact that you had in Walden running and managing it. Right. Are there any, [00:26:00] you know, fun stories from you behind the counter? You know, we feel customers, well I just was going to say that there's a lot of them. Speaker 3:I have to say. I actually, I'll tell you this and not because I'll tell you, I want to tell Andrew also is that yesterday there were two women that came in yesterday. They were eating ice cream and they said, we want to let you know that before we leave we're going to get a 10 pints because we're go, we're taking them home with us. We got to talking and they said when you guys were in Hetero Pints and whole foods, uh, we're from a town [00:26:30] in northern California, a couple of hours from here. So we used to buy your pints there and we loved, it was the only ice cream I can eat. I'm lactose intolerant and I can't do gluten either. And so we just, we now do, we have a, so that every couple of months we drive down, not for anything else. We come down here to get your ice cream. We bring it back home. She had this big container filled with ice to bring it home with. And she was just so thankful that we're at least in existence still not that your own home, but I'm just saying that there's a lot of people [00:27:00] out there who really appreciate the fact that there's an ice cream that is, there is no dairy or gluten or soy and that is Vegan and that, um, that is [inaudible]. Speaker 4:Yeah, it's actually, it's a, it's an emotional thing. We've had a whole lot endless supply of customers coming through, especially in the beginning. Uh, they still do, but who come in with tears in their eyes because then shaking, visibly shaking because they haven't had ice cream for, they can't, for whatever reason, for many, [00:27:30] many years. And here's this oasis of ice cream they can have. We also get one of my favorites, and this happens also very frequently, people will come in almost with scowls on their face because they're just so, they've been dragged in by somebody else. They're averse to the whole concept of anything besides their dairy ice cream, their whatever favorite, you know, a brand they like. They almost always go from very, very reluctant to saying our favorite line, this is better than ice cream. [00:28:00] We get, it became our slogan like Mr Dewey, like ice cream only better. It happens a lot at where people come in. Just not wanting to even try it and leaving with the pint or you know. Speaker 2:Yeah, that's, that's amazing. I mean I should also mention it happened to me, right? I am a regular ice cream later, but I've never, I literally phased out completely eating regular ice cream. Is there some way more, if our listeners could get to know more about you guys somewhere to contact you or get in touch. Okay. Yeah. Anytime they [00:28:30] can email us for sure. Which is the, can email Andrew or Ari Info you can mail to info at Mr Dewey's dot com? Yeah. Okay. Is there any things to catch all? So anything we'll get through us. They can call the stores the Emeryville public market or the one on Solano Avenue in Albany. Um, you can go to www.mr Dewey's dot com if they want to just look at our website and get an idea of that. And do is, by the way, for your listeners, it's not spelled the way they might think it's spelled. It's spelled first of all, [00:29:00] Mr Mr. Period. Of course. But Dewey, d, e, w, e, s not the e. Why with that, people often confuse it with thanks guys. Thanks for coming today because you don't have a lot of the listeners. Speaker 2:Thanks for joining us. Thank you. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Lisa Kiefer speaks with innovative business development leader, Tony Skrelunas about new community-based initiatives and social ventures that create paths to entrepreneurship for Native Americans while respecting culture, tradition and environment.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness of public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley celebrating innovation. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today I'm speaking with Tony Skrelunas, the foremost expert on community-based development and it's one of the most respected native American leaders in the U s welcome to the program, Tony. Hello. So that's Navajo, [00:00:30] right? You work a lot in economic development with tribes. What do you see as the major, your Speaker 2:problem or problems today? Well, background, um, I come from Navajo land in, in our way. It's appropriate to introduce ourselves and our traditional way. I am a Twitter genie, which is bitter water clan and born for the Lithuanian peoples. I'm here. Yeah. Lithuanian. The idea. Yes. Yesterday it happens. Yeah. I was raised by my great grandparents, um, in the a real traditional [00:01:00] way. The place is called big mountain. It is considered a very traditional place. Um, and we've suffered a lot. This is the place where we've had a, a long standing land dispute. It's a place where mining has happened. We've had a lot of impacts of coal mining, oil and gas. So that's still a lot of extractive. And, and I saw how it impacted our people. And so that's why I got so interested in economic development. And then, um, by way of my career, I was, um, for a time a head [00:01:30] of commerce for our Navajo nation. Speaker 2:Well, that area, now when nation is the size of West Virginia, it's 25,000 square miles. Uh, we have 110 communities. We're a sovereign nation. We, um, covered a four corners, uh, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico. We're also the largest private land owner in the southwest. We have a real progressive, um, land acquisition program. There's a lot of, um, attention to Navajo because we're the largest, but [00:02:00] we also have a language still. We still have our ways. You know, we're, we domesticated, uh, sheep just as an example, is the first domesticated animal in, in the United States. And Dino, the story goes to the Spaniards brought some across over 500 years ago. And then we domesticated it. And, and uh, so there, there's a, a sheep called the Navajo. True. It's the first domesticated animal in the country. But, uh, we, we have a long tradition of, um, sheep herding and of, of really ecological [00:02:30] traditional knowledge passage on from elders to youth. Speaker 2:And that's really ensured our survival. We've been here for time and memorial research shows maybe 30,000 years though. So we've lived sustainably. We, uh, we migrated around, we moved around. We have a lot of different clans, like over 80 plans in terms of, um, challenges of economy. We're, we're a very young economy. Government was set up in 1923 as a formal structure. The federal government needed somebody to leases [00:03:00] and exploration of oil, gas, and coal. So in early 1923, they, they created what's called business council. A lot of the policies for really up to the 1960s was about culturating the native American take the savage out of the native, you know, it's a boarding school systems. The, um, the treaties, the way they were written, not only was policy like that, but when the government helped us, you know, they in essence handpicked her early leaders and of course the early leaders, they believed in that acculturation. Speaker 2:[00:03:30] Uh, a lot of them say, you know, didn't believe that we should have anything cultural. We shouldn't have our, our languages that are only way to, to success is to westernize our whole systems. You know, creating business include business opportunity. And that really was the case up till really recently, the reservation system was set up. They moved the tribes. You know, we, we march 500 miles, thousands of our people and a lot of them died in the 1850s when, when they moved our people to Fort Sumner, New Mexico [00:04:00] in the winter, thousands of our people died on that March. They rounded up, they burnt down our, um, corn fields, our homes, they killed our sheep. You know, again, we, we've been hurting 500 years. We're really the, the sheep hurting tribe of the world. That's something that we've always wrestled with is when government helped us build an economy, it was very resource, extractive oriented and it was very westernized. Speaker 2:It's what they really tried to bring into to our nation that really always clashed with our [00:04:30] communities. To this day, our government still is centralize, but newer generation, we've worked to change that structure to allow communities because communities is where it's at. Again, we have 110, we call them chapters. Yeah. We call them chapters and then taught nods and that is what we call them taught. Doesn't that in those communities we all have, the language that's primarily spoken in, in any meeting on government is still our Navajo language. You know, there's always been a clash between Westernized, top-down [00:05:00] economic pursuit versus community based. I'm a culturally appropriate, environmentally sensitive, uh, approaches. Only until recently, has there been a breakthroughs and crafting tools that allow for communities to innovate? We're fighting to system of ingrained. Um, it's really entrenched. Um, um, system of top-down development approaches. Yeah. Speaker 2:So meaning capitalistic. And for a long [00:05:30] time, many of the young Navajos that were getting MBAs, they really were trained in that way. They really got rid of their culture, but now more and more of us, and you can see that on our website, you can see that and the rhetoric of our nation now is that a lot of us still speak our language or some of us are very fluent still, but we see a different way. We see that we have to, we almost have to embrace who we are and build an economy around that. We have to create financing tools, business development [00:06:00] tools. We have our wait community planning tools that really engage all facets of the community. We're changing things. When did you decide what had to be done and how you were going to do that when you live a traditional way? Speaker 2:We didn't have one home. Navajo has always moved. You know when we lived traditional it means we grew up in the thing called a Hogan. Just as an example. It's a very ancient, it's like a temple of learning and sharing. A lot of times our parents had to work far away. So we were raised [00:06:30] by grandparents were raised hurting sheep. We monitored the land, we monitored the grasses, we monitored the sheet behavior and, and where the water's available. The same with farming. A lot of us grew up, we all had corn fields. And again, you know, sometimes the land has to rest, you know, so you rotate. Yeah. So we rotated our areas. A lot of our work was very communal. It wasn't all about self interests. The Navajo teaching is that we survived 30,000 years. But [00:07:00] it was our responsibility as an individual Denette to, to make sure that our society survive for eternity. Speaker 2:You know? So we had to pass teachings and knowledge. We had to make sure that all people in our community knew the stories and the ways no family was about self interests, you know, so that, that's our traditionist that's what I was taught and that's what many of us are taught. Again, we're, we're really losing those ways to more westernized self-interests, you know. [00:07:30] Well then I was, um, getting my masters in business when the light went off. I was really concerned about the, the economic situation on Navajo land and that the top down nature of planning, top down approaches to, you know, most business power plants and coal mines and oil and gas and Westernized shopping centers. Um, nothing community base. And I saw that picture. So, um, and in Grad school I started writing [00:08:00] about what could be, how, how you could incorporate tourism and that like, and develop tourism development in, in a way that's culturally responsible. Speaker 2:And you create tools to protect a culture. There's ways, there's monitoring mechanisms, there's planning tools to really allow the community to, to plan for development, but do it in a way that is responsible to the elders and to the culture and to the latest. Yeah. And make some money in that. And so that, that's where that light bulb [00:08:30] went off. Um, I was very lucky that, um, I had a group that was willing to support me, uh, an organization called Grand Canyon trust and Flagstaff [inaudible] still the director. I'm still the director. I'm out with the native America program. One of the, the foundations really liked what I was doing for foundation was a, a real supporter. Uh, this is in the mid nineties. You know, one of the first assignments I was given as a Grad student was, um, a tripe called the Kaibab Paiute were considering a waste incinerator [00:09:00] because they really need it and revenues and jobs, all the surrounding communities. Speaker 2:And all these environmental groups were really telling them that, please don't do this. Please don't do that. You know, they turned it down as a community. But what I saw was when all these groups left, nobody was helping that community. So they said no, but they didn't say, here's what you can, here's what you can do. Here's what we help. And that's where Grand Canyon trustee really a, that's where they, they brought me in and said, why did you help this community? We don't know what to do. [00:09:30] We developed a community base, economic development plan for the Paiutes and create alternatives and, and what kinds of things? It was like creating an orchard, um, improving like their herds. Um, they wanted to do a small casino, you know, things like that. I'm a small convenience store. There was no convenience store out there. The hard part is that we're communal in our culture. Speaker 2:Communal means that it's really hard for our individual tribal members to say, I want to be this big entrepreneur [00:10:00] and become a multimillionaire. And so there's been very little work on actually structuring companies where it's communal versus individualistic. Yeah. So we, we have to figure out a way we're a grammar can get into a business and, but that grandma's also the, the vessel of traditional knowledge. We have to allow her to still work on her sheep, still work on her teaching her kids. We can't just make it word. It's all about just a business venture. So that's where the light bulb went off about trying to find a better way. [00:10:30] Luckily the Navajo nation gave me that space after Grad school and said, you know, restructure our government. We give the power to the communities. Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness. Public Affairs show on k a l s Berkeley celebrating innovators today. I'm speaking with Tony Skrelunas, former head of commerce for the Navajo Nation and native American program director for the Grand Canyon Trust. You worked with local communities using culturally [00:11:00] and environmentally respectful strategies that preserves and supports the culture, the language and the environment. So you had to actually change law. Speaker 2:Yeah. And they people, nobody's ever said no. It, everybody's always like, yeah, you know, we're very happy here thinking deep on this stuff. Do it then, you know, organize 'em, bring in the elders, bring the communities together, create policy. Or one of the things you did was you have created a limited profit [00:11:30] company company. Yeah. This is a recent space about three years ago, um, we started working with the chapters to communities. We, we sat down with our six communities. They were all complaining that there's small chapters, federal government, the state government, the Navajo nation government doesn't listen to them because they're all small. They take them for granted and they want it to come get an organize, an entity to really pursue grants. This is, we're too small individual, we can't even get grants but we don't have [00:12:00] the proper organizations to even apply for grants and we don't have the people, we don't have the wherewithal, we just are, are, are really in a dire situation here. Speaker 2:A couple of us that came together, a guy named Edward d, myself, Walter Phelps, uh, a few others in d, these are tribal leaders, you know, and we said, look, we will, we need to create some kind of social entrepreneurship venture. We wanted to innovate. We wanted to create not another non profit, uh, not a for profit. And we knew that there was a space in [00:12:30] between somewhere. We brought our community leaders together. Some of these leaders are elders, some of them are traditional singers in our way. We have these ancient ceremonies, you know, that that it's about getting in harmony and who does this all mean means is is you are living in harmony with the, with all the elements around you. We said let's create something that is in that arena that it's about saving who we are. That's about saving our culture. But building economy, innovating, using some of the best tools out there. Speaker 2:We were very lucky [00:13:00] to engage, uh, Arizona State University, so we've got a lot of help in planning this from them. The law school. In that research we found out that there was a thing called limited profit companies and that fit what we were wanting to do the best because again, it's not just about profit, it's a lot of it is about helping the community, helping save the culture, helping protect the land. We found that only a few states have that California has one. Yeah. Limited profit [00:13:30] law. Arizona didn't have one. So we said, and then the federal government has given the authority to our Navajo nation to, to incorporate, to have 'em so we could do like subchapter s for profit. S Corp's a LLCs, a nonprofits, but we didn't have a space for a limited profit. So we created that. We got our Navajo legislature to, to, to set up that structure and then we crafted our first one, which has done the hugill LTC your latest project. Speaker 2:Yeah. Tell me what you're doing [00:14:00] in that. There's a lot of pressures from in our nation to not only a culture rate, but to create large skill, westernized development. There was a major proposal to build all outside investors. I'm tearing apart our Navajo nation turned apart. I'm really disregarding our cultural ways. There's a tramway proposal into the sacred Grand Canyon had one of the most sacred areas where the little Colorado and the Colorado River meets. So our work has become very paramount that doe [00:14:30] that we come up with a different way, you know, because they want to build a, a thing where 10,000 visitors a day can go down into the grand cashier. Altern alternatives is let's go crazy on community base. There's all kinds of potential. We can have a plan for building USA certified processing center around um, our sheep and our lambs. That sureau is a 500 year old. Speaker 2:It's in the one of the best tasting lamb in the world, but it's also hardy. [00:15:00] It doesn't like destroy our, our range land. It only needs to be watered every three days. It's very hardy in terms of survival. Uh, but the taste is magnificent. The wool is magnificent. You know, we're, we're the rug weavers too or Navajo peoples, but we've never had a USDA certified operating center because it was all westernized return on investment and maximizing return on investment market rates, financing that won't work with something like that because we have [00:15:30] to keep it small. We know we have all these herders, we can't force them to have thousand sheep that won't work. It has to be small land stewardship. It has to be a high quality breeding, you know, and, and organic. And so that, that's a massive niche market. But, but not only are we doing the harvest facility, we're designing the harvest facilities called Little Colorado River valley meet cooperative. Speaker 2:And this is ongoing. We're setting this up. USAA has given us a startup grant. We're going to set up a communal herd. We want [00:16:00] to allow individual Navajos and non Navajos to actually be able to own sheep units in a communal herd with an offer as, and Andres grazing permits teach our ancient ways, teach our ancient traditions, cities a new crop of herders. Cause we're losing these, this knowledge, you know, but we want to make it exciting. We want to do cultural camps. And I finding that younger people, yeah, they're embracing. Yeah. There they are. There's a lot of excitement in this kind of model. [00:16:30] Another example is to, um, to create an investment vehicle. We want anybody in the world to be able to co own a Hogan bed and breakfast. Somebody to be able to own a, a venture that's reservation base, a food business, a, um, a tour company. Speaker 2:We don't have things like venture cap finance. We don't have any investors native, non-native or not can go on and say I wanna yes, Yup. [00:17:00] And we'll help them. We'll help the business set, set up their business plan, we'll help them, um, structure your company if needed. And then really develop the prospectus, develop the pitch to the investor. If they're comfortable, the we'll will, will, can serve as an intermediary. We can, but we'll manage that relationship for them. A lot of times they'll want our management team to, to sit on their, their management team to ensure that, you know, for level of three years, five years, seven years, but the space that we're going to operate that and [00:17:30] is an agriculture and tourism because it's really, really, uh, an innovation, great idea that other tribes, other nations, to duplicate something like this. And this is a brick through, I live in that world of economic development to find innovation. Speaker 2:We're going to be the first to market with, with this type of, um, our setup. We want to build on that. There's a lot of work because this is, this is really heavy duty [00:18:00] stuff we're working on, but once we set up the processes, we want to share that that's us as a limited profit company. We want to share that with other tribes. And there's lots of innovation. I mean, we're right now already doing all kinds of community planning. We're working on like teaching our communities how to have leadership on utility scale, renewable energy. Uh, we're working on a small skill of renewable energy, just as an example. This isn't, so, yeah. Yeah. Moving beyond, not just extractive industries [00:18:30] that aren't your own casinos. Yeah. One of the things that we're working on that, and we're hoping this comes through, is that the Navajo nation does like how we're innovating. Speaker 2:It's really communal. We're having a breakthrough and communal own and they want us to work on a, a communal own hotel. There's some times I have really become wealthy through casinos and, and other mechanisms. A lot of them have pooled their resources and they want to actually invest in a set [00:19:00] of communal owned hotels on Navajo. Yeah. It's ever been done. That platform that you're creating is gonna create the capital. Yeah. The capital, uh, the, the, the world was all the vehicles do to allow access to, to outside capital and then access to the, to the reservation business too. So this will be a massive innovation. But we see it having all kinds of application even on like traditional farming, you know, cause we have, um, farmers that know how to read all everything. Like the weather patterns, [00:19:30] seasons, they have heirloom seeds that they pass from generation to generation. Speaker 2:They knew how to read the the types of different types of washes and some of the tribes that we work with are like Hopi where their desert, they farm in the, in the sand and, and their carnitas thrives, you know, but they, they really know that knowledge. We have one lady that that's a farmer out in a curly valley in Tuba city. That's one of our larger Navajo communities. She only waters once a year and she has an incredible crop lands [00:20:00] at that. Our farmer markets, she's amazing. Her family's a main attraction. So why did they do that? They have an aquifer. No, no they did. And they use only organic traditional methods to keep up pests. They have their own traditional seed banks. They know which corn kernels to to plant and they know that it'll thrive in that desert environment in that area. Speaker 2:They know how to lay out the fields. Just perfect query that, you know, they'll build booms on the site. They know like when it does rain that they'll capture [00:20:30] that rain. But then when they do water once a year, if you do it just right, she believes if you do it, if you followed the traditional teachings just right, you shouldn't feel, our communities are adapting to climate change too because we have all tool wounds, winds. We have a lot of temperature volatility [inaudible] more to come. The scientists before we're saying that climate change is going to heavily impact our area and we're considered like a hot spot. We don't want to wait. It's our traditional way. It's our responsibility to, to, to [00:21:00] figure out strategies for the longterm. We're not shortsighted with this. A good way to put it is that our people lived for 30,000 years and they live sustainably. Speaker 2:They really had happiness. Our tribal peoples in this northern South America creed at 73% of the world's food, over 200 a key medicines. We were once over 100 million, one third of the world's population. A lot of that, that was decimated by disease and and, but we know how to live sustainably. [00:21:30] If I was an investor, I would invest in something that ensures survival for another 30,000 years. And that's something that hasn't been been thought through. We all have to invest in that and that's why we really put a lot of effort into preserve our knowledge systems and our ways. We also have to have a job. Our kids have to go to college. Um, our kids want to go to college, they want to have a house, they want to have running water, they want to have cell phones, you know, they want to travel the world. Speaker 2:So, so we were trying to build that system [00:22:00] where it accommodates both. Any of our listeners want to know more about this or get involved, what should they do? Thank you for asking that question. We know that this is something that's applicable to the world, that tribal peoples in Asia, even in Europe and in South America, Australia, Canada, there's a real desire to do things in a way that's culturally compatible. I'm a lot of our peoples who resist westernized development, [00:22:30] people like Walmart, large scale development have always wanted to bill on our lands. But a lot of our community people say, no, we just had a community turn down a massive solar plant because it was very westernized. What we're doing is really important to, to the future of these tribes that are struggling with this. We have a website right now called [inaudible], l three c can you tell d I n e h o z, h o [inaudible] and then ltc.com we're adding [00:23:00] all kinds of video. Speaker 2:We have a team that's very fluent in our traditional way, but we're also very business knowledgeable. You know, we're, a lot of us are MBAs and Harvard. We don't have a Berkeley Grad on our team yet, hopefully soon. But we have a Stanford Grad, we have ASU grads, we have a guidance getting his phd and sustainable economics, you know, and we have traditional community leaders that are medicine men that sing in our way. So, so we have a great team. We're building this website where we [00:23:30] can teach our methodologies and our research. You know, the, the work I've done on community governance, we're going to have a whole education area where we were going to all papers and research and even videos and how you do certain things. You know, we'll have bases around traditional economic development approaches where it's compatible with culture. A, we'll have ventures, you know, how, what we've done to create ventures, the philosophies, the tools that we use to create these companies. Um, we'll feature a lot [00:24:00] of the work that we're doing in the communities. Again, we have a great team. We have a good web team that's building this, so, but you can already see what we're doing on, on that website, but it's going to be expanded in a major way. Speaker 2:If a company like let's say m Elon Musk, Tesla comes to you and says, I want to follow your traditional ways, but I would love to build a battery plant. Would you work with somebody like this? We would home. I have a, a little brother, his name is Brett eyes. He's [00:24:30] a engineer and he's, um, started a company from scratch. Um, I work in the, as an advisor, uh, to his company, but it's a solar company for a long time. You know, our Navajo nation, we'll write a grant. Somebody wins that grant, but the, the systems they would sell our people. And again, after the United States, the now hold people is the one that's, we're really spread out the size of West Virginia. Uh, we still have 18,000 families that don't have electricity. And so this is really important to, to [00:25:00] our nation. A lot of times these companies would come in and sell an inferior product that's way over price with no local maintenance knowledge, you know, no local capacity. Speaker 2:We changed that. We create our own company, we build our own battery boxes. We, we architectured and design engineer our own rack systems. Um, we found very good wholesalers that the system that Brett is building is incredible. A whole community systems, small individual systems at all different cost levels. Um, we use a lot [00:25:30] of social entrepreneurship approaches. So we use volunteers to build a lot of them and that people's homes, we figured out real different ways to find out some. So it's very innovative. We are starting to work with solar mosaic who's in the bay. We're gonna make a breakthrough what utilities skill and we're gonna actually put some of the revenues towards a stream towards funding a bunch of, um, smaller skill systems on our Navajo land. We were working with another group here called cutting edge capital to set up this platform. So to allow people from [00:26:00] all over the country to actually invest in these local companies that that's where we're headed with this in Grad school. Speaker 2:I research community base development as one of the best paths for our nation, our tribal peoples, to build an economy while preserving who we are. Well, preserving our land. When I try to implement that with our Navajo nation very young, I was very in, you know, early twenties, um, I found a lot of [00:26:30] obstacles, communities that were not allowed to plan if they did, only the central government took over the plan. Implementation communities had one pace structure, very low, like $18,000 for what's called a chapter. Communities. We're not allowed to have their own legal council. They couldn't have their own accounting systems. They couldn't create revenue. There is no local, nothing like a sales tax. There's no sales tax that existed, but communities couldn't tax. They couldn't pass any laws, they couldn't zone. And a lot of people, [00:27:00] they believe in what I was trying to do. Speaker 2:I was hired as a young man to lead our nation to, to change our, our governance structure to a system that allows for all those things. Um, we flexibility because all the communities are different in simple terms. It's like a, how you incorporate a community in a state that they, you want to be town. You know, you're speaking of, you put in your policies and procedures, your accounting systems, your finance systems, your, you know, your plan of how you can manage the land you take over responsibility. That took [00:27:30] about 40 years of my life, my career. I worked with elders and traditional leaders and community leaders, um, had massive, massive public policy process. It's something that has been the changer for Navajo nation. I studied traditional systems of government and I was very lucky to be surrounded by people that were really knowledgeable in tribal history, our history of our nation and how things were a long time ago. Speaker 2:So we, we incorporated a lot of those ways into our alternative systems that government, [00:28:00] which is systems of government space in all the way. Um, so a community that gets local government certified can adop, uh, like requests while a council and not, ah, which is a long time ago, like I was saying, you didn't know we didn't have elections. We didn't say I'm better than So-and-so. We couldn't say that. That wasn't our way. Now community can adopt that and have precincts and have the elders come together and select and then nominate and pick somebody to represent them and be accountable to them. It's a real [00:28:30] innovation. It's real, a breakthrough. And I'm really proud to be the one that created that. It's easy to look at tribal peoples and say, oh, they're, they're not wealthy. They're, um, they only do in casinos. They're living in a third world conditions, you know. Speaker 2:But what our people tell us is that wealth is not just big house. It's not just big cars and fancy words. It's really our clan ships and our family units and our traditional knowledge systems and having the knowledge to to [00:29:00] build on your own home and farm, but using 30,000 year old knowledge, knowing the songs and the teachings and the stories, raising a family that's strong and leaving a legacy as your life. You know, a lot of us, we resist completely westernizing ourselves. We want something better and I think only now through education, through being raised in our tribal way still, but being matching that with with the best tools that we are finding [00:29:30] the pathway to to achieve a [inaudible], a balance, a harmonious way. And I think, yeah, most people, they want to be like America. They want a three branch government and commerce free market economy, but we have to be careful how we think that through. When we create governments, we have to really think about the old knowledge systems, the old ways because right now our world's in trouble. Even our, our commerce systems and our economies are really built [00:30:00] to, to benefit the wealthy. There are a lot of people in the world that are moving to that way of thinking. Non-Native people who also agree that there's no other way to do it. We can feel it though the greater university. Speaker 1:Hello step. This is the right week. Terry. Thank you very much, Graham. Thank you for your time and yeah, good luck. Good luck. Berkeley, you've been listening to method to the madness public affairs show on k a l ex Berkeley [00:30:30] celebrating innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. Until next time. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Lisa Kiefer speaks with Mandy Aftel, author and natural perfume maker, about her new museum in Berkeley dedicated to perfume and the experience of fragrance, The Aftel Archive of Curious Scents.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You are listening to method to the madness, a public affairs show on k a l x Barkley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm speaking with Mandy Af [inaudible]. Mandy is one of the most sought after custom perfume makers in the world. Her first book on perfume essence and Alchemy is accepted as a seminal text. She has collaborated on two cookbooks with celebrated bay area [00:00:30] chef Daniel Patterson exploring the connections between food and fragrance. And most recently she has opened a museum, the [inaudible] archive of curious sense right here in Berkeley on Walnut Street. This is a show about innovators and you have perfect story about how you got started. Speaker 2:I had a practice for 30 years as a psychotherapist in Berkeley and I specialized in artists and writers and I loved my work a lot. I really did. It [00:01:00] was just wonderful. And I wrote a book called the story of your life and it was about how stories work in therapy and in fiction. And I love research. So I read a lot of books about plot and it's just fascinated by, by how people tell stories. And I wrote this book and then after that I kind of knew so much about plot. I wanted to write a novel and that I should make my main character perfumer. And I have no idea why none. I had never been that interested in perfume. I don't know where it came from, but I thought this would be good. This will be kind of sexy [00:01:30] and interesting and juicy. Speaker 2:And I thought, oh, I can do a lot of research, which is very appealing to me. So I began getting books and I knew that perfume was synthetic now, mostly synthetic, if not totally. And I was very interested in real ingredients and real flowers and real trees and leaves and stuff. So I began to collect books from the turn of the last century and they were so fascinating, so beautiful. So interesting. I just loved them. And so then I thought, well, maybe I should take a class for my research, for my novel. So [00:02:00] there was a place I think north of here that taught a little solid perfume class, which it was in a ramen therapy studio and you could make a little perfume with a wax, bees wax and oil. And I went there with a person who was a friend at the time and I got to smell all of these materials and I just totally fell in love with them. Speaker 2:And I also felt like for some reason I could kind of understand them. I could kind of figure some things out about how to work with them. So I made this perfume in class and then my friend who I went to the class with, she said, well, let's start a perfume line. [00:02:30] You know, you'll make all the products and I'll do all the business. And um, and we did, which was kinda crazy. And it got picked up by Nieman Martin, Neiman Marcus, Bergdorf Goodman. And it was like really amazing. And nobody could be more surprised than me. And I loved it. I loved making this stuff. The business came to kind of unfortunate. And I got taken away from me and I thought I was never going to make perfume again quite honestly. And I also thought it was just awful at business. And then my editor, who's also my best friend and I wrote this new book, um, the art [00:03:00] of flavor with her and wrote also wrote the story of your life with her. Speaker 2:She suggested this is several books path, right? Something on Pershing because by then I had 200 turn of the century books. I had hundreds of essences cause I'm very obsessed when I like something. And so I wrote this book called essence and Alchemy, which was I think 15 or so years ago. It's kind of the Bible of perfume. It is. A lot of people got their start with it and then kind of, I just sort of, you know, without being too corny, followed my nose and sort of landed [00:03:30] where I am. We're going to talk about where you are now because you just opened the first museum in the United States about natural essences. Yes, yes. It's called the [inaudible]. It's called the aff tell archive of curious sense. And it's located right here in north Berkeley, so it's at 1518 walnut. It's in a converted garage. It's like a cottage behind my house. Speaker 2:I think it was a garage like 50 years ago. It's on a few doors down from Pete's and we're only opening police. It's right behind chase and it's only open one day a week [00:04:00] on Saturdays by ticket. And it is the best thing I have ever done. I just love it. Well walk me through, if I were to go in there, I know you have what is called an Oregon. Yes. What is that? Oh, it's so cool. It's a a perfume organ is very thin shelves and many of them that you put the perfume bottles on. So when you're sitting beneath that, it kind of looks like an Oregon assence's used for perfume, natural essences, but also synthetics as well are called notes and you put them together and they make chords. [00:04:30] So in perfume, different essences like rose or jasmine or orange or Frankincense, they're called top notes, middle notes or base notes. Speaker 2:So you arrange on this organ, on these shelves, the top notes together, which are the ones that reach your sense of smell very quickly and disappear like orange or mint or Lyme, things like that. Things are familiar from gardening or eating. Then the middle notes are more complicated. They have more layers like rose and jasmine and they last [00:05:00] maybe two to four hours. And then base notes are the really deep heavy materials that had been in man's spiritual life since the beginning of time, like sandalwood and Myrrh and Frankincense in there from roots and barks and trees and residence and grasses. And so they kind of have different smell registers if you will, light down to heavy all of your ingredients. Some are very exotic. And I wanted to ask you, you know, you probably have a lot of stories. What is the been the most exotic [00:05:30] smell or essence that you have been able to find and how did you go about finding that? Speaker 2:You know, I really like the hunt and I'm a very passionate human being. So kind of almost everything I have has a hunt connected to it. And one of the things I'd say too about the hunt and finding things is even if I find them, it's not stable, so it's not like I can go back and find that again. So if you marry perfume for someone, then [00:06:00] that perfume is a onetime deal. Yes. So I have Gardenia, which was really a hunt, really, really a hunt and I thought it didn't exist. And honeysuckle, which I also, when I wrote essence in Alchemy, I said they didn't exist. I knew at that point I had never found them. People can render these materials if they want to take the time and somebody wants to spend the money, but natural essences for such very high prices are not really in demand in industry. Speaker 2:So no one wants to pay the kind of money. I think the story of the Tiara is pretty interesting. [00:06:30] Tre is a gardenia that's in Tahiti. One of my students who was snorkeling I think in Tahiti, ran across this guy who had this gardenia that was just so beautiful, so incredible. She put me in touch with him. I got in touch with him and it's just, he has this stuff. I have a fantasy of his life. I'm sure I'm wrong. I feel like he might be like on a yacht boating. I don't know where I call him cause he doesn't call me back. I believe I'm his only customer only because he's difficult to [00:07:00] pin down and get anything from. It's clear to me, he doesn't care if he sells this stuff, but he has, you know, all the right analysis of his material, his materials, very beautiful. Speaker 2:When he sends it, you have to follow all these rules. It's very touch and go. Whether it'll actually get to me, which is why I think I could be the only one because I take all the risk on it coming because lots of forms need to be filled out and they always, you know, call us and ask us to fill them out. But it's this very beautiful, voluptuous gardenia smelled. It's just [00:07:30] narcotic. And what form does it come to you comes to me in a form that's called an absolute, which is a solvent extraction, which is a cold process that releases these very volatile, flighty, rich, layered kind of smells that are inside that Gardenia. So it's extremely heavy and very scarily expensive. I mean truly scarily expensive. Like what? Like around 10 $12,000 a kilo, which is 2.2 pounds. I don't buy 2.2 pounds. Speaker 2:He will sell less to me. So [00:08:00] I buy it in smaller amounts, which means I'm continually, when I run out cause I don't buy very much cause it's so expensive. You know, he sells it to me again, which I'm very grateful for. You talk about the history of sense. Can you tell us a story about any in particular that in history that you uncovered that was an astounding story? Well aren't you I think is a pretty amazing story. [inaudible] is really fascinating. There are these shells, they're very ordinary looking like the [00:08:30] top of a shelter like this big and they're there. They're not gorgeous. Your shells can be really beautiful little shells. And I found that they were in the original recipe for incense that God gave to Moses. And so in the, in the cataract, I'm not positive I'm saying that correctly, but they're in there and they've been using incense tradition for a really long time and they're pretty fascinating. Speaker 2:I have them in the museum and I have very old, I think from 1600 on handmade paper and hand colored illustration [00:09:00] of them from that far back of the shelves. They're very lowly but they're very famous. And so I pound those up with a mortar and pestle and then I soak them in very, very high proof alcohol and the smell comes out of them and it's a kind of briny sea, slightly animal kind of mysterious kind of smell. And that was like amazing to find and be able to use almost sounds like a sexual, well, there are ones that are really sexual, that ones less sexual. What are some of the, some of the others? Well all [00:09:30] the animal ingredients which are very, have very complicated pass in a lot of ethical issues to them but have very tangled histories with us. And some of them are endangered, so I'm not, you know, suggesting people, you know, run out and use them. Speaker 2:But they are very sexy. Mosque is the original, very, very sexy kind of aroma. And it's very intense, real Musk. And I do have that also in the museum. In my museum, I have a hundred year old essences, like I have a hundred year old ambergris, I have a hundred year old things and some to be compared to modern ones. So they've aged [00:10:00] over a hundred years and they're extraordinary smelling. And I think I may have the only bottles of them if someone else has them. I haven't run into them yet, you know? And when I bought them, I'd never heard heard of anyone having these very, very old bottles of these things. And so I have one little exhibit in the museum comparing old and modern ordinary oils and not these, these animal ones. But there's an ingredient that is in jasmine and orange flower and an animal ingredient called civit, which is called indoor. Speaker 2:[00:10:30] It's also in poop. So it's kind of this fecal floral kind of edgy sort of Yin and Yang kind of smell that's really a piece of the natural perfume world in terms of something, not just being sweet or not just being a beautiful flower. So like jasmine, when you really smell jasmine, when you go in Berkeley at night past a real patch of jasmine and it kinda like, you know, knocks you out. It's very sexy and it's got a kind of dirty aspect too. It's not just like this clean, [00:11:00] sanitized smell. It's got that kind of dirty aspect, which makes it sexy and interesting. Well, I have to tell you, I live back east for a while and then came back to the bay area. Yes. And one of the things I really noticed walking around in Berkeley was that very thing, that sort of jazz, mini sweet but stinky, almost like nauseated. Speaker 2:And I thought, wow, I wonder if she ever does city smells like you know, here's your bottle of Berkeley. You know, it's that aspect of natural aromas that drew me in in the first place. [00:11:30] Their beauty is so complex. It's the, it's the complexity of a really good cooking or gardening. We have really fragrant plants. When smells are really good, they're very complex. They're not just one thread of a smell. They're a rich kind of cocktail of different aromas and I just love that. I love the worlds that open up when you really take the time to inhale and smell deeply. Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs [00:12:00] show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Mandy [inaudible], founder of f Telia perfumes and the app tell archive of curious sense a museum which explores the natural history of perfume right here in Berkeley. Speaking of cooking, you've done a couple of books with, Speaker 2:you know, Patterson, the chef of Kwon. Yes. Most recently it was called [00:12:30] the art of flavor. You did a Roma with him. How is it different from what we did, I think about 15 years ago and it really focused on essential oils for cooking and for personal care. So Daniel would have like three cooking recipes for say rose and I would have one personal care thing, a a a body oil or lip balm, a something for your face, bath salts, whatever for each of the ingredients. This book is really different and it was really exciting. Came out art of flavor from Riverhead in August. And so we just have been doing [00:13:00] some things about it. Daniel, first of all is you know, brilliant and amazing to work with and we discovered we'd been friends for many years that our ways of working were the same. When we would talk about how I would create a fragrance and how he would create a flavor. Speaker 2:We were both thinking our heads were in the same place, thinking about ingredients and complicated ingredients. And so we thought let's do something on flavor. Let's kind of teach this to people because we wanted to. So we want to do something for the home cook that's really simple, that focuses on things [00:13:30] that you have, not expensive stuff. Very simple stuff. And what we found was so much was interesting about how to create flavor because it's, it's like creating perfume. So we focused a lot on shopping with your nose, really smelling ingredients, really thinking about the different shapes of ingredients, the different textures of them, things that I think about with scent. Then we also went on and talked about how your, you're effecting flavor. The minute you start cutting into something and all the cooking techniques, [00:14:00] everything's oriented towards flavor. And then we have a thing in the book, there's a really wonderful flavor compass, which is all the aroma, all the very, very aromatic and very essential oil rich ingredients. Speaker 2:So it's citruses, herbs, spices, and flowers. So we talked about how to use those ingredients because they're very complicated in a way that you wouldn't think about. So like when you're using Bazell, why would you use Bazell instead of tear gum? We wanted to empower people to make good decisions. Why use lemon instead of line? [00:14:30] But in the book there's no real using of essential oils. You're using these essential oils that are in the plant. So it's in the leaves of the man and you're talking about Basal medium that is best to use to extract that. No, you don't need to do any of that stuff. With our book, we basically say smell these ingredients like smell Thai Bazell. If you're in a store, rip off a little leaf and smell it or drip off a little flower and smell it really smelled the end of the the care Rick really smell the things [00:15:00] you buy and then use them and be smelling all the way as you're cooking so you don't need to render anything because he essential oils will leave. Speaker 2:That's what you're really getting the flavor from. It's the essential oils in mint that make for the mint flavor. The minute you start to crush it or cut it up, the oils coming out. Same with Bazell or if you're with an orange and you just push your finger nail into the peel of an orange, that's the oil. So I have to do is use the zest and some of it is in the orange juice of the lemon juice. [00:15:30] Or if you're clove, if you pound it up or you stick your finger in there, there's the oil oil is right there. So we wanted to make it very easy to use those oils right there in the plants. We talk a lot about that and it's just book I'm really proud of. I'm very excited about what we discovered because if you think about it, people tell you what to put together in food, but they don't tell you why. Speaker 2:So you're empowered to do it on your own. If you're in a farmer's market or you're in Safeway or wherever you are and you see something, you think, well, I've got these kind of crummy carrots at [00:16:00] home, what could I put with this to make it good? We talk about that. So simple and very special. And you have your own f Tele, a perfume company, and um, you do perfumes for individuals. You know, when you go into department stores or really any big stores that sell perfume, it's such a [inaudible] of horrible, I don't even wear perfume anymore. My customer is the person who doesn't wear perfume. What is the difference between synthetic perfume and natural essence? Perfume is big business [00:16:30] and you can make a lot of money in perfume with the big, big brands and things like that. And so they moved almost a century ago to using synthetics. Speaker 2:And those are manmade chemicals. So the natural essences are still there. They're still around and they have, they're really, really different in the first way they're really different is they don't last. So if you put on a perfume of mind, I probably wouldn't be able to smell it from here. They're very personal. You need to be very close to the person [00:17:00] and also they evolve with your skin and so they change on each person and just fade away. So my big selling line, if someone calls me, it gets me on the phone is how would you like to buy a perfume that costs a whole lot more money that doesn't last and the bottle is tiny. Does that sound good because of this? Sounds good. I'm your perfumer. So it's a reeducation of people to not expect something that's cheap in a bottle that it has no real relationship to the earth and [00:17:30] so when you wear it, it's a really different experience and it's what I fell in love with. Speaker 2:There are people who love synthetics and there's also people who work with both naturals and synthetics and working in artists in a way. I just love natural essences, all that complexity, all that tangled history with us as a species. All the places around the world that they come from. It's local, but it's really exotic. I like all that. So that's why I like to work with. If you have a client that comes in, I can imagine that you maybe [00:18:00] unwittingly call on your psychotherapy skills to help a person determine, I don't, you don't have such a disappointment. It's like such a great like I am and I'm not, I mean it's there but it's not know how you think. So let me explain that. Most people who do custom perfume have a questionnaire which I don't have and they ask psychological questions, which I also don't have like, you know, do like winter. Speaker 2:Do you like spring and can you tell me a memory that you, you know, that happened that was important and [00:18:30] what's your favorite color and a lot of stuff like that. I don't ask anything. So nothing at all. You come in to my studio, but I do pay a lot of attention about people. The main thought for me is that it isn't your conscious mind and your identity to the world that helps you decide what smells you like. And that's what you would tell me in those questionnaires. I feel that's not what's true. What's true is what you resonate with when you smell the ingredients. [00:19:00] So I give you the opportunity to smell all these different top notes and middle notes and base notes and you pick your favorites. I give you lots of bottles of things to smell, not to overwhelm but to kind of get a sense of your taste. Speaker 2:And when you smell the individual ingredients on their own, then you get to make a decision that you may not have made otherwise. I've done a lot of custom perfumes for men. They pick a lot of florals. So you would think by questionnaire and psychology, they wouldn't pick florals, but they do. And women pick lots of woods [00:19:30] and resins and so on. So I find the sexual stereotyping to be completely out the window. And also very early in my custom career, that part of it, I remember this woman came to see me and she was very corporate, you know, and I made a real snap decision about how she looked and who she was and whatever. I was very prejudiced. She picked the sexiest, wildest, unconventional style. And that was like a life changing thing for me. Cause I thought you or your presentation is totally [00:20:00] different than what's going on with you. Speaker 2:So that for me, the essences have personalities. So when you pick them, I learned about you but not the other way around. So if a magazine calls me to say, Oh, you know, it's Valentine's Day and we have a really sporty mom, or we've got one that likes to go clubbing a woman, you know what suggest a perfume. And I would always say, God, I have no idea because I mean cause she likes to go clubbing this, you know, or she's driving her kids around, you know, on a station wagon to send, tell me what perfume she'd like. I can't help. [00:20:30] So it's very different for me. So you have had some very interesting clients, one of which one of my heroes of all time. Leonard Cohen. Yes. I would love to hear about that interaction. Well I had a, a relationship with him for 20 years. Speaker 2:I was very afraid to meet him. So, so we wrote back and forth when I made stuff for him, we wrote back and forth and I was kind of incredibly, I was very lucky that he loved my work and that was like [00:21:00] beyond, I mean really beyond, beyond the, beyond to me. Um, cause I idolized him and I was just too fearful to ever meet him until right before he died. I knew he was ill and I knew I needed to like either get over it or regret it. So I did go and and meet him. But we had been in touch, we were in a lot of touch over the years with many different things I made and we had a kind of gift giving relationship. I think I frustrated him a lot by not letting him [00:21:30] pay cause I could see it disturbed him. Speaker 2:And every once in awhile I would say, I'm going to charge you for this. But the thought of him paying, I wonder if he ever wrote a song about, he has fragrance in a lot of his songs and he was a very, he was just loved smells. He like smells that had a very deep, like the Anja from the Kettering. When I got involved in that, he sent me one of the formulas for the Kettering from some Kabbalah group he was interested in. So he was very interested in the things that [00:22:00] I made from head. Very ancient materials in them and he loved that and he wore it whenever he went out. And that was kind of unbelievable too. I mean, still still utterly unbelievable to me. Did you listen to his last hello? Oh my God. Yes. Well, when we went to finally go meet him, he asked if I'd like to hear a song and he played the whole album for foster and I in his living room and talk to me about it. Speaker 2:And it was like one of the most amazing experiences of my entire life. So I want to talk to you about the business. [00:22:30] Okay. You say you aren't really a business person. I love business. I love business, but I like it my way. Well, let's talk about that. You really followed your passion. Yes. Without any kind of business school. Oh my God. [inaudible] classes are these. So tell us about your business structure and um, well this is my favorite. I just love my business, our business. I do it with my husband foster and we're partners in it together. Our business is so unusual and [00:23:00] we love it so much. We barely can go to sleep at night. We work a lot, really a lot. Um, I am the sort of person who has always has not fit in certainly from my background in Michigan and I'm just eccentric would be a nice word. Speaker 2:I'm just kind of different and I lost my first business so I thought I was really bad at business. And um, we have this very unusual business model that we made up. Just kinda like the museum. I mean all of it we kind [00:23:30] of concocted. I remember being there making the museum day after day after day for three years and thinking, you know, people go to school for this, you know, like display or any of this stuff we were doing and we did a lot wrong. We were very willing to like do it wrong and do it again. I mean you can tell we, we are people that have no boss cause a boss would have probably fired us by now because you know, if we get it wrong we just start all over again. We just forget where are you profitable, you're profitable. We were profitable pretty early. Speaker 2:We are profitable, [00:24:00] we're very profitable. So to me that says like if you do what you love, guess you're going to make it. Is that an assumption? That is, I think, I think that we're so lucky to be profitable and I think that, um, I do do what I love. I believe in what I'm doing. I work really hard and sodas foster and we spend a lot of time thinking through how we could improve because it's fun for us. So we, we pay attention. And I, one of the things [00:24:30] I've said a lot about businesses that anyone can get a customer, it's getting a repeat customer that makes a business and a repeat customer that tells their friends. And that's, that's our base. So people that come to us are by and large very happy with their experience with us and we're happy with it too. Speaker 2:So we write, for example, I write a note to everyone who buy something and we call everybody back immediately. If we do something, you know, we've send the wrong stuff, we send other stuff. On the other hand, we educate [00:25:00] our customer to what we have. So we have no free samples. We're never open. We, we have, you know, we're not, don't fight. I mean people expect free samples in the perfume world, but we feel that our, it's called the juice. Our, our thing is very valuable to us. It takes us a long time to make it so we don't want to give it away because we want people to value our work. Have people tried to buy you? Yes, but I don't have any interest in being yes. But I see a few times, but I don't have any intro. [00:25:30] I'll tell you, I had this incredible experience with this very wealthy man who's now dead in Los Angeles is very interested and I was interested, I mean, some of this stuff, I was interested in these things because I needed to see them to realize they weren't for me. Speaker 2:So it's very easy for me, which I think is a big key to business to say no. Like I'm not seduced very easily at all because so many things just look bad. You know, I feel like what I'm doing, [00:26:00] I love and want to protect. So having lots more money is not interesting to me. Doing work for, you know, tons of people or whatever. I, I don't want to grow. I don't want to be bigger. I don't want to do the things that most people want to do. So it's of no interest. So it's very easy to stay on track. It's not, I'm not struggling with anything. So when people have tried to buy me, they have this, this is very telling when to this man and, and he was really loved my work and stuff and he [00:26:30] wanted me to know, for example, my cost of goods, which is I think what people know. Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know. I still don't know. I think people like think I'm lying, but I don't, because let's say I buy a kilo of rose or a pound or whatever I buy, I have my old one there too, and then my old one cost a different amount of money. Or maybe I got it somewhere else. You need to know the price per drop, but I can't figure that out. Then I sell some of it. So I have a little bit of my business is my overflow [00:27:00] of my oils that I love and I source. So people who like my taste or other perfumers sometimes buy from me, I make a profit on that. Not a ton, but I make a profit. So then I'm completely, cause I'm dyslexic, confused about what that drop of rose must cost since I've sold some off and made some mix them together. Speaker 2:So when I went to this man and he wanted to buy me, I had to give him the cost of goods. I spent a lot of time trying to work it out like what a drop of rose cost me or whatever. [00:27:30] And in the end I thought this is a sign I can't, I can't do this if this is what you do in a real quote, real business because we think of our businesses, kind of a toy business. I wasn't going to get there. So I feel like a lot of things people do for business kind of rips the heart and soul out of what you're doing. And I just don't want to go that way. It sounds like that your best advice is if you don't love something, forget about it. Yes, and so we're, we're very tiny. We, we work together with foster son Devin. Speaker 2:It's three of us that [00:28:00] WHO's really there. I greet when I'm there. I greet every person who comes in the museum. I love what I do. I feel so lucky. We're lucky to have you right here in Berkeley. And how can people reach you if they want to take a tour of your museum or buy your book or buy your perfume? Oh, I would love that. The museum is open on Saturday. A. First of all, you can go to my website, which is www.ftelia.com which is a like Adam F, like frank t like Tom, e, l I e r.com. Or [00:28:30] if you can't remember that, just look my name up and hopefully my website will show up also, uh, there at the website. If you go to www dot [inaudible] dot com forward slash archive it would take you to the museum, which I hope everybody will come. Speaker 2:And what's the name of that museum again? It's called the AF tell. Archive of curious sense. It's located at 1518 walnut street between cedar and Vine Open on Saturdays we, we usually have eight people an hour, so we can't have a lot of people. So, but if we can have people we do [00:29:00] and then I have my stuff on my website or you can just call us up if you want to call us up and ask a question and want to buy something. (510) 841-2111. And if I wanted to have a perfume made, perfect, my having a perfume made is the most expensive thing I do. So it's a lot of money. It takes several hours to come and sit with me. It's kind of like a portrait. Speaking of the psychology. So I've had people come back over the years and it changes because I of course look up what they picked before and what they're picking now as [00:29:30] their life changes, their taste and smells changes, and you get a whole, you know, you get like four or five different things. It's really pleasurable. You learn all about the different aromas that go into your preference, a very Speaker 3:personal purchase to really one of a kind experience that I love doing it. It sounds beautiful. I really want to thank you for being on the program. Speaker 1:You've been listening to method to the madness can find all of our podcasts [00:30:00] on iTunes university. Speaker 4:[inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Maker's Common founders Sarah Dvorak and Eric Miller discuss their Berkeley eatery/market's focus on American cheese producers and charcuterie, their challenges, mission and unique model of investment called a direct public offering.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness public affairs show on k a l ex Berkeley featuring innovators of the bay area. I'm your host Lisa Kiefer. And today I'm speaking with Sarah Deb rack and Eric Miller, two of three cofounders of makers common and eatery and market that opened this summer at 1954 university avenue right here in Berkeley, focusing on local producers. [00:00:30] Makers, common is connecting food with community. Welcome to the program, Sarah Devora Speaker 2:and Eric Miller, two of the three founders of a newly opened makers, common on university avenue here in Berkeley. So you found a mission cheese in 2011 and it's wildly popular. What made you want to start something over here in Berkeley? You know, after six years of operating in San Francisco in a, in a pretty small [00:01:00] 650 square foot space, I think, you know, we all were a little bit itching to do something new for several reasons. One was really to have more impact in the industry. There's only so much cheese a small shop can buy and wine and beer. And also it was, we were really limited on what we could provide in terms of a culinary experience just because we have an oven and a sandwich press, you know, so it's not a full kitchen. I'm not a lot of space. So it was kind of your customer demand it sounds like. Yeah, I mean sort of. And also our sort of creative energy. [00:01:30] And then also mission cheese is technically a single member LLC. That is my sole responsibility for better or worse. And we wanted to like bring more people into the fold. Eric had been at our manager for three years there and so we really wanted to work on a project together like officially the white Berkeley. I'm just curious about the different environments. I know San Francisco is a completely different environment than Berkeley. Yeah, Speaker 3:definitely a lot of different reasons for that. Um, you know, we, we did initially scour San Francisco to find a place and it was just really difficult and just getting so [00:02:00] expensive and getting expensive here too. Uh, yeah. But I think, you know, I think we'll probably see that ramping up over the next couple of years. But I think so. Good timing. Yeah. You know, timing is definitely. Exactly. Um, but you know, we, we dealt with some lors and we were in lease negotiations on a couple of places in San Francisco and it all kind of fell apart at some point and whether it was difficult owners or you know, leasing agents and things like that, it was just overly complicated. So we decided to look, do [00:02:30] a little, you know, dabble with some searches in the East Bay. And so, you know, Oakland and how did you find that great space? And it's in a great location by the UC theater. Speaker 3:That area is really popping and it's just going to get better and better. And your space is beautiful. Thank you. We appreciate that. Did you have to build that out? It was, it was a total shell that we found of all places on craigslist. No Way. Not Energetic. Um, just started doing searches and various locations and um, we saw that and one of the, when we together a list of [00:03:00] what's our ideal space and what does it look like. It was something that wasn't part of a new construction sort of formula retail ground floor where everything looks the same and kind of cookie cutter something to a little bit of its own personality. And this kind of had it a for sure in, in loads. Um, you know, there's not a square corner in the entire space. The floors aren't level, you know, it's, it's a wonky space that we're able to turn into something really beautiful. Speaker 2:Yes, there's so much light and I love the garden area out back. It [00:03:30] just really felt like, you know, all the spaces that we were looking at in San Francisco, we're like, oh, we could make this work, we could tweak it here and like sort of figure it out. But when we walked into this space, it just felt right for our concept. You know, there was a small loan look for the market to the left and felt organized correctly. And then the outdoor space just felt amazing. The owners and landlord just felt really welcoming and like wanted us there. So you know, whenever you're opening a business that feels good, people has a different personality. Yeah, for sure. So in San Francisco [00:04:00] right now is just like, I feel like just trying to get every last bit they can from people that are leasing things before things turn or I don't know what it is, but you know, we got your up against like urgent care facilities and people willing to spend 10 plus dollars a square foot. Speaker 2:And like as a small food business that's dedicated to really amazing ingredients, like you're not, that's not where you want to put your money. Yeah. You're not going to make it, you know the numbers don't cry. You've mentioned your concept and just for our listeners who don't know about mission cheese in San Francisco and your new place makers common, tell [00:04:30] us about your concept. What is it? Well, I mean makers comment is like as simply put as I can possibly do is a market and eatery. The market is, you know, highly curated all domestic products. Um, cut to order cheese and charcuterie counter and really focusing on people making really soulful products and sort of doing what mission cheese did for the cheese part of our business in that we're, you know, sharing stories and getting like lesser known, smaller production American cheeses into people's mouths. Speaker 2:[00:05:00] We want to still focusing just on American cheeses. Correct. We have one Italian guest Parmigiana Reggiano, but everything else is fully American. So will you have a really pretty deep background in cheese? I understand. Well how did you get into cheese after moving to the bay area and working in corporate retail for a few years I was really drawn to the food world and I almost went to culinary school. I worked in a kitchen on my pursuit to going to culinary school. And you know, in learning that I did not want to be [00:05:30] a chef, I learned that I really loved and was fascinated with fermentation and cheese. And you know how you start with one simple ingredient and it morphs into this, these, you know, amazing characters that have varying flavors. Every state wide states make cheese probably. Speaker 3:I, I know that I'd had some cheese from Hawaii and goat cheese from Hawaii that was quite delicious. Yeah. I don't know that I've had anything from Alaska. Wouldn't personally. Interesting. I didn't mention that [inaudible] up there. I mean Speaker 2:there's, there's definitely cheese being [00:06:00] made most places now. I mean it's whether it's, you know, produced at a level that can make it outside of the community. Like there are a lot of hobby cheesemakers who, you know, just make it yeah. You know, one wheel at a day or even one wheel every two days and then they sell it locally at a market or just give it to their friends. But um, yeah. So how do you find out about the great cheeses, let's say locally or not locally? Well did they contact you or Speaker 3:sometimes you get some of the hour each. But yeah, I mean I follow a lot of other cheese shops [00:06:30] around the country on Instagram and then they're taking photos of awesome cheese that they're finding a man. I'm like, Ooh, who's that producer? I don't know them like, and then we can see if we can get our hands on some of that if there'd be distributed over here. So that really does help quite. Yeah. Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a game changer for that. It was like culture magazine and every year there is an American cheese conference that happens and it bounces around in different locations. But there are, I think now somewhere around 1500 cheeses that are entered in that competition every year. So if you'd go to that conference, you have the capability [00:07:00] of trying 1500 different American cheeses and in a short three days span. So you find a lot of things there as well and make a lot of them relationships and can, and do you make cheese? Do you have your own signature cheeses? Speaker 3:We don't make cheese. Okay. Um, we don't do any onsite there. There's occasional, you know, maybe like a ricotta, like a cheese that will occasionally show up based on, that's kind of from some other projects that may be happening. But you know, the flip side of that is we are making sure catering, so we are fermenting, you know, Salami and things like that [00:07:30] in house as opposed to the cheese side of things. Yes. Speaker 2:But you teach classes, right, Sarah? Or did you use to on a cheese or someone that we all have taught classes at certain number of points in time. Usually Speaker 3:pairing unrelated. Yeah. I'm like, you know, wine and cheese or beer and cheese or sometimes wine versus beer just to like really have some fun with it. You know, there are a lot of cheeses that are delicious to just nibble on. And then there are ones that are really, really amazing with the right beverage or the right food to pair it with. And that's kind of, I think where we kind of bring the [inaudible]. Speaker 2:Right. You have the [00:08:00] local beers on tap and wines. Uh, right now Speaker 3:the eight perhaps. And they're all California producers, you know, all the wine and beer is California for the beer though we did, you know, since we're coming in the Berkeley, one of the things I thought was gonna be really important was to build those local relationships and to have people like Gilman brewing. Um, and Tim a scowl and field work for example. There some really local breweries that are doing some really great stuff. So that was kind of a key component and having a good, you know, what I felt [00:08:30] to be really legit and you know, paying attention to what's happening in Berkeley style. Speaker 2:You walk inside and there's a lot of local art. There's a beautiful ash family produced a beautiful quilt on the wall or mural over his moms. Oh, okay. Masterpiece and Oliver's a third partner or your husband. Yes. And so was that your focus to, to get everything local that, you know, the chairs, the table, I mean, everything we, I mean, we really try, I mean, when you're designing a space, you notice it like trends and sort of interior design [00:09:00] pass through. And so at a certain point you're like, okay, we need to like inject our own little flair and soul, you know, into a space. And we did that with mission cheese. I think we did. We tried really hard to do that and makers comment, it's a bigger space. But yeah, adding the mural, which tells the story of fermentation of beer, wine, cheese, and also did geography of the bay area and how it relates to Berkeley. And that was actually painted by Oliver's cousin Lori Damiano. It's really beautiful. Yeah, that was really fun. It was a great project. And then the quilt and by Oliver's [00:09:30] mom and the chairs are produced by the same gentleman that produced the stool or the stools are produced by the same gentleman that produced the tools that mission cheese and the lights come from Jerrod's pottery in Richmond. And so I think it, it makes the difference, like those little touches of like community and yeah, definitely bringing a spirit to a space Speaker 3:even, you know, like the Bar, uh, and whatnot. Our contractor who's here in Berkeley. They had done a tear down years ago and he had all this dug for that they'd been sitting on for a long time and kind of came up in conversation and that became [00:10:00] our good old Doug fir. Yeah. Yeah. Quite old. It's really beautiful. Would we have found out that it's quite soft though? It takes some dings in in those, those first couple of days like Oh God, but now it's like, oh, that's character. Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. For all of that. Yeah. If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a k a l x public affairs show featuring bay area innovators. Today I'm speaking with two of the three founders of a new [00:10:30] restaurant in the market in Berkeley called makers common, Sarah [inaudible] and Eric Miller. So your name makers common. I'm curious about that cause you know the makers movement, was there some connection to that or why did you call it Speaker 3:that was kind of unintentional and we did talk a little bit about that but it was really, you know, kind of deprioritizing it in a way ourselves and like trying to really focus on the actual makers, the cheese makers, the brewers, the wine makers, people that are making amazing [00:11:00] [inaudible] across the country. And then you know a little bit ourselves as well like what we're making and utilizing our kitchen and our skills to, to feed people. So and not being a really chef-driven restaurant where that's, you know, like you know the name of the chef and that's what sort of drives the business in a way and gets people through the door. This is kind of flipping that script a little bit and it's knowing our producers really well and being able to tell those stories. So it's about more about those makers. Speaker 2:Yeah. Mission cheese was really hyper focused on the cheese [00:11:30] and I think the name makers come and opened it up a bit. And instead of being about the product being about the people making the product and also the Commons part comes in is that just like a space for the community to come together and ideally we really want the makers to feel welcome there and happy there. No spaces. Speaker 1:Well, speaking of community, the most interesting thing to me about your whole thing is that you have created Speaker 2:a space that was invested in by the community you call your 165 or so investors, [00:12:00] co founders. Founders. Yes. The idea of bringing community in together with your restaurant. Yeah. You didn't do that with your first restaurant and cheese was all, all scrappy friends and family. Did you just not want to do that again? I mean I think to a certain point you feel like you wanna like stop leaning on, um, you're super tight community and open it up to the broader, broader space. And I think, you know, while having your family invested in your business, it's all pretty intense. And not to say that our family isn't invested [00:12:30] in this current business, but yeah, we wanted to do something else. And I think wanting to do something that felt more aligned with the good food movement and the direct public offering really felt like it was good friendly way to get money and interact with the community, which sort of marries a good food movement where getting money from a bank and like signing your life away and just that process didn't feel like it really matched. So I don't know. We were all really excited about the idea of raising money from the community and not just accredited investors, but unaccredited investors so anyone could invest. [00:13:00] The minimum was $1,000. Our average, I think at the end was somewhere around 3,500 Speaker 3:I believe it was 101 65 or one 66 investors. Speaker 2:Okay, and you met your goal? Not exactly [inaudible] Speaker 3:gold in a sense from a feeling perspective, just to throw that in there. Yes, because it was, people got more excited about it than we had anticipated. I think overall in the beginning though, what I think slowed us down was there's a lot of education around what a direct public offering is. Before you can even really talk about the offering [00:13:30] itself versus yesterday. Like explain what a DPO is and then we can get to here's what we're trying to do. And so I think that kind of cost us a little bit a time. Speaker 2:Can we say people are knowing about this now though? [inaudible] here recently and he talked about their direct public offering and people are thinking about the importance of community. Speaker 3:Yeah. It's just a different way to sort of deal with your finances and you know, you have, you know, we know we have a 165 166 customers out of the gate essentially. Speaker 2:Are there downsides where our challenges of doing it, this way of bringing in local investors, [00:14:00] it took a lot of time. Yeah. Speaker 3:It's, it's definitely, it's a lot of individual touches as opposed to, you know, just getting a big check from a bank or something like that. So you figure if we have 166 investors, that's 160 at minimum of 166 conversations because there's a lot of time and yeah. And again, like that educational aspect of it out of the gate, you know there were a few people that knew what it was beforehand, but mostly it was going through the whole process of, of that education. And did you have conferences with a groups or did you do [00:14:30] one on one? [inaudible] one on one but we tried to do is we at mission cheese we are hosting happy hours their weekly, biweekly where we would invite people in and tell your friends, bring your friends, anyone who might be interested and would do, you know, we would go through like a little slide deck but have some wine and some cheese. Nice sort of casual sort of situation where you know there's no hard sell in it, you know, is just for proof of concept, mission, cheese and how successful that's been trying to go for this, you know, other business from there. They must feel pretty good to know that local people want this business here. Oh yeah, [00:15:00] absolutely. You know, I think if they're invested in it then they want you to stay alive. Yes, yes. Speaker 2:And I think that's really the beauty of crowd investment, um, is that you have cheerleaders out of the gate and you have also people to bounce off ideas and come like we've had a lot of founders send us suggestions or just like, you know, useful information and critiques that, you know, we're using to like guide the business and make sure that we are the best we can be for our community. Cause that's really what we're trying to do is be a gathering spot for Speaker 3:Berkeley. Yeah. I think having that [00:15:30] group out of the gate though that are more comfortable coming directly to us with ideas and suggestions or even like some critiques here and there is great cause it's, it's sort of, it's a great little firewall and communication path before you have people that you don't know at all that are just going straight to Yelp or something like that. [inaudible] going to Yelp to write a one star review at least, or probably you're probably going to talk to us first. Yeah. But you have to manage that. I mean that, that is a time consumer for sure. Yeah. It hasn't been terrible. Oliver is really the person spearheading that for sure. [00:16:00] He's the person that's sending out the interest checks and all that to our founders and just kind of the key point person for when there are communications and you know, we kind of then take that information and divide and conquer however we need to respond. Speaker 3:You think about the old days, you know, before social media, that's what people had to do anyway, right? I mean go out to their community and friends and make that kind of contact. So it's kind of a swing bed. It is. Cause I mean the history of the drugs public offering is that it came right after the uh, you know, great depression when [00:16:30] banks weren't lending anymore. So this is a way for businesses to kind of get a little restart when there was no money being loaned out. Where do you see yourself going in the next few years? What other new things do you want to do at that location? We're so in it right now. Yeah. It's one of the things I do a light to a fantasize about for sure is that on the [inaudible] production side of things, you know, where we're small and scrappy in there and doing a, I think we're doing a really nice job, but to [00:17:00] get to a place where, wow, we're so busy on their front that we need our own production facility for stuff like that. Speaker 3:And where would that be? I don't know. Maybe Berkeley as well. You already have some great people here, you know with a, from honey and you know Paul Bertolli, so the west coast charcuterie hub, give those guys a run for their money. I don't know. There's always room for small production craft goods like that. There's really beyond for money. There's not, yeah, there's not, there's not too many super local. You know, there's, there's some other people doing some really great stuff, but you don't [00:17:30] have too many production facilities. No. Overall local butcher makes sausages, but those guys are amazing. I love them. Fantastic. Yeah, I think, you know, it's looking at stuff like that right now. It is just, you know, we're kind of a function of just making everything work right now. So five years out is a little hard. But that's definitely one of the things that I would like to see happen Speaker 2:for sure. Pushing the products that we do create inside of makers, common outside of the space to be available to others and also grow that [00:18:00] sort of interest in fermentation and old, old foods and preservation. That's for sure at the nickel for all of us. But first and foremost we need to fill that space up and get nice and busy and Oh, you're very close to the campus. Yeah, we're close to the campus. We have an amazing assortment of wine and beer and I think we're all really proud of it and just want to share those things as well as like all the other food items on the menu and in the market and just really try to support these local small guy. I mean a lot of the wine makers that we're supporting [00:18:30] are making one in the bay area and yeah, Speaker 3:yeah. I guess, you know, kind of grow those relationships. Expanding with Sarah saying there, but for like more, you know, short term kind of goals is like yeah. You know, getting at those, filling out the space, getting some, getting more, more impacted, turning it, you know, into, you know what you're talking about that that spot where it is that gathering place, you know, for downtown Berkeley. How do you do that? You know, we've been talking to Berkeley Rep and we've been talking to the downtown Development Association and Speaker 2:yeah, there's going to be a downtown [00:19:00] Berkeley walking food tour for like nice nighttime ever and they're really excited to feel like downtown Berkeley's in a spot to like offer that there are a lot of alleyways now going north, south from near where your location is and you can cut across and go multiple streets and venues and that's kind of happening. Then we're going to have a parkland and some bike parking out front of our space. That's all in the works. And so we're just really focused on the, [00:19:30] you know, short term becoming like a community gathering place and adding really to the vibe that is downtown Berkeley and not, you know, like making it a place where people jump on Bart and come here to eat or just walk in addition to being the place that you know, there's an amazing neighborhood, you know, right to the west of us and I hope we're a place that they're happy to walk to. I wanted to ask you what your biggest challenges have been? Uh, not just at makers comment but mission cheese as well. Speaker 3:I think, I think out of the gate for makers common, at least it was staffing. Um, for sure. [00:20:00] You know, everyone's been talking about a shortage of land cooks and things like that in the bay area in general. And I think that would, that was probably the biggest hurdle for me out of the gate was that every time I was able to get a little bit further away from the kitchen to do other things that were more front of house oriented or more cheese oriented, it's getting pulled back in because of some issues there, but starting to come back together, which is great. I think overall we have a good core front of House team at makers come in, you know that they're [00:20:30] all learning the lines and the peers and being able to better speak about cheese, which is really great to see seeing like that excitement in people. But staffing out of the gate was definitely hard. You know, and I don't want to speak for Sarah, but you know w there's been just because mission cheese is a little smaller, you have like a really great tight team. So there when when someone leaves, it does have a bigger impact on that side because it's sort of like, you know, everyone's kind of the big fish there in a way. Yeah. In a, in a little pond. Speaker 2:You know, what we're doing and offering is really, [00:21:00] there's a lot of knowledge involved in it and I think we'd sort of took for granted the baseline of knowledge that we were so familiar with and comfortable with that mission cheese where after six years of being an operation, that passion and that baseline of information is like sort of infused almost in the space because no one's leaving all at once. So like starting from a clean slate and sort of building that knowledge of the, of the products that we're carrying because they are really strange. Like if you come in and look at our cheese case, even as a cheese lover, you are probably gonna not see many familiar [00:21:30] faces in our cheese case because it is all domestic, pretty small production like unique things. So even someone with a robust cheese knowledge has to learn those products specifically. So I think getting that baseline knowledge was a challenge in the beginning. And I think, I mean team is doing an amazing job in getting up to speed. And then also like Eric said, the staffing, I mean everyone you talked to in the bay area, food, retail, I mean there's a lot of turnover. It's hard. Well it's hard to hire people because people can't afford to live here. Speaker 3:It's a, it's not even so much the turnover. It's that [00:22:00] you know what you, what you can afford to pay people. Cause you know, we want to do the best that we can for our employees at, at all costs. In a sense. I'm still doesn't necessarily amount to enough for you to have your, you know, studio or one bedroom apartment by yourself, especially in San Francisco for sure. But you know that that same trends moving out this way too. Speaker 2:Yeah. When I helped permission cheese, pretty much the entire staff, I, I always reference this because we had like a progressive cocktail party for our first holiday party because everyone lived within a stone's [00:22:30] throw in the center of the city and the mission are very close by. So that was just 2011 2011 and now we don't have a single employee that lives in the mission. Yeah. Wow. They live either in the East Bay or at the beach or, yeah, I mean further out. Yeah, outer sunset, you know, Concord and, yeah, exactly. And Jose crazy. Really want to know what you think should be done about this. Yeah, that is a complicated question. I mean, just because you're in the retail business and we're also a part of it. I mean [00:23:00] we part of also why we needed to wanted to open another businesses that we couldn't really afford to live in the bay area. Speaker 2:I mean all of her and I lost her rent control apartment last year in San Francisco and we had to move out. I mean, you're in the East Bay now. No, we're in the North Bay. Funny enough. And it's not, it wasn't all that intentional. It was just an opportunity for a reasonably priced house came up. And so that's where we are. Yeah, it's a challenge I think for everybody, including ourselves. And so I don't, I don't know that there is a solution that I can think of. I mean there are, [00:23:30] there are some onerous like taxes and things at the city and makes you pain or just like really small food business. Should I still be paying on the tenant improvements of the space and the mission? Six and a half years in my tenant improvements, which I like, which is like includes my refrigeration is still worth like $87,000 I'm like, no, that refrigeration is almost dead back time replacing many of them so well I guess just the, the closures are going to be the message if they can't make it. Speaker 2:Yeah. I think part of the struggle [00:24:00] in the bay area, and I mean I could be totally wrong, this is just my hypothesis is there are a lot of tech companies that are offering food. They're offering breakfast, lunch and dinner and people aren't leaving their building. And I know that you feel that in the city and people are also ordering food online. I mean definitely like roasters and like people doing the same things that we're doing are feeling that, you know, and it's unfortunate because I want there to be more of a push from these companies to go out and spend the money that they're making in the bay area to support local communities. And I know some [00:24:30] businesses do that and I know salesforce highly encourages people to get out of the building and things like companies like that. But I wish that would become more of a trend. Speaker 3:The food industry is lost a lot of line cokes. You know, we've, we've been reading a lot about that where a lot of the larger companies where they have really well outfitted kitchens inside their offices, you know, where you can be a chef and be more nine to five [inaudible] and not have the long hours that a lot of restaurants do from open to close and clean up, you know, pretty cushy. But that just means [00:25:00] that those people don't go outside, you know, they just sort of stay there. They eat there, you know, and the only thing missing or is just some, some cots for everyone. Speaker 2:I mean I think, I think people will eventually realize that they want places in their community to hang out and they'll do that. And I think we're just in a point of this, the technology swing right now where it's difficult and I think a lot of businesses even in the mission felt it last year and probably will continue to feel it as people interact more with food and technology and get it delivered to their house versus going out. Speaker 3:For me, when I really started [00:25:30] getting into food, it was with like a, a good group of people that, uh, were my local community when I was living in New York City still, uh, before moving out to the west coast. And all of our get together is revolved around food and cooking and everyone getting together. And I feel like this is just sort of a continuation of that. And you know, you go to a friend's house and someone's doing dinner and everyone always inevitably ends up in the kitchen for some reason or other. And though that doesn't happen at maker's common because it's a restaurant, we can't actually do [00:26:00] that. Um, it's being able to feed people and, and you know, provide that experience in a way that's no different than, you know, hanging out with your friends and giving them the information if they need it and giving them the an emanating. Speaker 3:Exactly. You know, and maybe, you know, introducing some new things that you never had before, especially in the cheese front. There's so many cheeses that we represent and that's such an amazing community unto itself. And to be able to fold that into like my community to the Berkeley community and you know, the wine and [00:26:30] the beer and in the charcuterie and, and to just be proud of that and to be humbled to by the, the support that we've received from our founders. And you know, all of that just comes together. It can't be more about community than that. Speaker 2:Food has been a big part of my life growing up. Like my family always sat around the table and I do it from a real, I'm originally from Wisconsin, so the cheese really is in my veins. But yeah, you know, we had long family dinners around the table and it's always been such a big [00:27:00] part of my life. And I feel like that community aspect and what coming around a table of like home cooked food does is just so irreplaceable and like my daily life and I hope it is. I want it to be in everyone's life, certainly my son's life. And you know, the conversations that happen and how we talk to each other as humans and like understand like how each other feels and you know, what challenges and things that people are going through. And I really feel like food has an amazing way to connect people in a, in a way that very little else does. Speaker 2:You know? [00:27:30] And for me, that connection really to food came moving to the bay area and really understanding what a great tomato tasted like and what a fuzzy peach coming up the behind, you know, like what that felt like, you know? And just that close connection to food. And we spend so much time and attention on so many things in our life, but like everything that we're putting into our body can sometimes be forgotten. Mission cheese was an effort to really showcase the cheesemakers and make consumers or connect consumers so that next time they go to the grocery they might be asking about Sophia [00:28:00] or fat bottom girl or Dunbarton blue so that our local cheese makers can grow and scale and stay around. You know, and you know the last few years we have seen some fall out and it's sort of scary cause I do feel like the good food movement was on such a tear. Speaker 2:And I think it's been, there's so much happening right now that it's sort of hard to stay focused on it. And I do really think that having a robust agricultural system that feeds us is so important. I think mission cheese has become a remarkable gathering place and a place to tell stories and to introduce people to new and interesting [00:28:30] things that are off the beaten path so that our food system stays diverse and fun and engaging and I hope makers as an extension of that. If some of our listeners want to reach you guys or do you have a website? Tell us how to, Speaker 3:yeah, a maker's common.net for the website. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram. Just maker's common Twitter as well. So I'll just walk down to 1954 university avenue. Exactly, exactly. Between Belvia and MLK and then joy, we want [00:29:00] guests building that community and get people in the door. What is actually in Velveeta? That's a great question. I mean it's anyone really no processed cheese food. I'm sure it's a lot of vegetable oil. Yeah, processed, processed cheese food is what it generally says on the label for things like that. Like that was our goal is to like get rid of the stigma that comes along with that word, which is like, I mean it means Kraft singles, right? I mean a great idea to change that perception. And I always, I always kind of stutter a little bit when I go to say like, Oh, you know, American, [00:29:30] Oh, do I really want to say American cheese? Like go, you always have to throw craft in the middle or something. I like American craft cheese, but not with the k leaving crowd. I just say American cheese. I think if American cheese makers are Speaker 2:the most amazing people too, I mean, that is really why I am made American cheese because they're the most collaborative, amazing, Speaker 1:genuine, beautiful group of people that you'd ever meet. I want to thank you though for being on the program. Thanks for Eric and Sarah. Yeah. [00:30:00] You've been listening to method to the madness, the public affairs show on k a l expertly celebrating bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll see you next time. [inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Lisa Kiefer speaks with Lloyd Kahn, Editor-in-Chief of Shelter Publications, home to books about building homes with your own hands, using mostly natural materials. His latest book is Small Homes: The Right Size. He believes small homes are less expensive, use less resources, and are more efficient to heat and cool, and cheaper to maintain and repair. Lloyd Kahn was the Whole Earth Catalog shelter editor in the late 60s and early 70s and has been publishing books on building for four decades.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. Speaker 2:You're listening to method to the madness and weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm interviewing Lloyd Con, the editor in chief of shelter publications. He'll be talking about his latest book, [00:00:30] small homes, the right size Speaker 3:[inaudible]. Speaker 1:Okay. Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the program and thanks for coming all the way from Bolinas today. Speaker 4:Thank you. How was traffic? It was good because I come over early. I get an a San Francisco at seven in the morning and go to my favorite place, Cafe Roma and I spend a couple hours [00:01:00] there and then I come over to Berkeley and have breakfast with my friend and then I came here. You've been building books and building homes for the last 40 some years? Yeah. How did you get into this in the first place? When I was 12 I helped my dad build a house up in Calusa in the Sacramento Valley and it was a concrete block house and we would go up every weekend. It was about two hour, three hour drive, and we'd work on the weekends and holidays. And my job was to shovel sand and cement into a concrete mixer and [00:01:30] did that all summer. And I liked it. It was 12 and then one day when we got the walls up, they, uh, we were putting on the roof and they gave me a carpenter's apron and a hammer and nails and they let me nail down the siding on the roof. Speaker 4:And I really liked that. I remember that Saturday, sunny, the smell of wood pounding the nails and that feeling of accomplishing something. And so that was my start with building. Then when I was 18, I worked on the docks in San Francisco for a shipwright. San Francisco was [00:02:00] a port in the forties and 50s and a ships would come in and they'd load the cargo and then we would go in and build us a wooden structure inside the ship so the cargo wouldn't shift around. So that was rough carpentry. And then the third phase, I guess was in 1960 my wife and I bought three quarters of an Acre in mill valley that had an old summer home on it. And so I started building, the first place I built would have been in 61 was a studio with a sod roof. Like they now they call it a living roof. Speaker 4:So I just started [00:02:30] building and then I got into a very complex remodeling of a house and I had to learn as I went along. And so I, I wish I could have worked with a, a journeyman carpenter to learn how to build properly, but I just had to figure it out as I went along. And so as I went on and went on building more things and eventually quit my job as an insurance broker and went to work as a builder, I was looking at building from like kind of a layman's perspective, you know, and okay, you don't know what to do here, you're gonna have to figure it out. [00:03:00] And I figured that I could show other people who were starting from scratch, that it's possible to build your own house. And so I eventually got into doing books on building. You had a stint in big Sur. Speaker 4:Yeah. And I read something that you were working with geodesic domes. Bucky Fuller's geodesic domes and you learned, I got a job, was a foreman on a, on a building, a house in big Sur out of a bridge timbers who was a big timber house. He was on a 400 Acre ranch and uh, three of us moved down [00:03:30] there from Mill Valley to build this house. And it was, um, the timbers were really big and heavy while we were building at Buckminster Fuller, came to Esalen and gave a seminar. So we went over and heard him talking about lightweight buildings and we're struggling with this big building. And so the three of us, myself and two brothers from mill valley, we got into building geodesic domes. I went on to eventually get a job at a alternative high school in the Santa Cruz mountains [00:04:00] on 40 acres where we built 17 geodesic domes. Speaker 4:And probably 1967 to 69 or 68 to 70 the the people who ran the school wanted to turn it into a boarding school, so they hired me to come teach the kids how to build as they, they built their own houses, domes. I did two books on dome building at that time and the second one was called Dome Book Two and by the time dome book who sold maybe 160,000 copies, I realized that [00:04:30] domes didn't work, so if you have to admit you're wrong in front of that many people, it was great because from thereafter, I've never been afraid to say I was wrong. Yeah, that's what I said a year ago, but I don't believe that anymore. I thought, well, they tend to leak. They're hard to add onto. If you want to add on to a vertical wall, you just build a roof off of it. Speaker 4:If you want to add onto a dome, you have to tie into all these different facets, all the different triangles that are going in different directions. If you want to subdivide it inside, [00:05:00] it's the same problem. Well, you're, you're cutting up would say plywood into triangles. They're never going to be usable again. You're cutting up the struts, which are the framing members into three and four foot sections. That's, that's not going to be usable and it's torn down. Eventually I did a, a, a p a little publication called re fried domes. It was a newsprint publication. And basically, so many people are asking me this question, you know, what's wrong with domes that I decided to do this? A little newsprint publication, I think it's 64 pages. [00:05:30] So I said, here's my experience with domes. Here's why I don't think they work, but here are the best thing about them was with for me was getting into geometry and understanding, uh, the basic solids, you know, understanding what an icosahedron was and a dodecahedron. Speaker 4:And so here are the model making the instructions, which that, that's really fun. And then here are the chord factors. Here's the mathematics if you want to build domes. So I did. And on our website, which is sheltered pub.com [00:06:00] there's a, if you go to look for domes, you can find all this information there. If you want to know why I took dome book two out of print after it's sold all these copies. And I figured, well if even less than two people read every copy, that's a quarter of a million people and they all think that domes are Kipp. Cool. You know, it was sort of the, it was, I mean I was in life magazine Time magazine. Everybody thought the dorms where the, where the icon of shelter for the 60s, which turned out to be wrong. [00:06:30] And so, well, I've got this pretty big audience. I better show them there are a lot of other ways to build. Speaker 4:And so I took about a year and traveled with cameras and um, studied building in this country in Canada and in Europe and came back and did the book shelter, which was a large oversized book, like the whole Earth Catalog and had about a thousand photographs and was kind of the history of building and, uh, indigenous building, a section on materials, Straw Bale Wood [00:07:00] stone. And the heart of the book was five little buildings where we drew every stick of wood in the building, a flat roof, a gable roof, a steep gable roof, a gambrel roof. It was tiny houses or small houses was the heart of the book. And that was in 1973 and we said, okay, if you're going to build on a piece of land, hopefully you'll go there and camp out and watch which way the moon rises and where the winds come from and the rain. Then when you start [00:07:30] to build, once you just build a little place to start with. So the heart of that book 44 years ago was tiny homes, small homes, and I'm way ahead of your time. Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean it really caught on hop forward to 2005 or something, 2006 and there's a tiny house movement and so at that time we did a book called tiny homes and so we sort of hit that right at the right time. Speaker 1:[00:08:00] And Speaker 2:if you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm talking with Lloyd Con, the Editor in chief of shelter publications and independent California publisher specializing in books on the building and architecture. This latest book is small homes, the right size. [00:08:30] How did you meet Stewart brand and [inaudible] Speaker 4:get involved with the whole earth catalog after that house and building that house in big surf for the architect a, I built my own house down there and I started building domes after I built my house. I was kind of isolated, you know, 40 miles down. It was right near Espolon and 40 miles down from Monterey Pacific grow. I started getting letters from people all over the country asking for the mathematics on domes. And I thought, well, I'm writing the same letter to everybody. [00:09:00] Why don't I just mimeograph something and I can send it out to, you know, I don't have to write an individual letter and go, well, at the same time I'm learning stuff about organic gardening and making your own shoes and a, you know, a lot of the things that we were into in the 60s. So I'll just kind of put all that together. Speaker 4:And then I met Stuart brand, uh, over in Menlo Park and the December, I think it was, and he was way ahead of me. He had it all organized, he had books on all these things and he was working on the first whole earth catalog. So that's how I met him. And [00:09:30] then after he did the first catalog in 1968, uh, I went to work for him as the shelter editor of the whole earth catalog. And a, a real significance of that for me was I learned how to make books from Stewart and Stewart learned from a newspaper. Well, the IBM composer was how you set type. It was a $10,000 typewriter. It was the next step after hot lead after lineup type. And so in the 50s newspapers, magazines switched over to this. It was a, it was the IBM typewriter, the type that had a font [00:10:00] of ball, you know, like to Selectric. Speaker 4:People are familiar with a selectrix well this was just a high end Selectric. That's how we made books back then. Books are beautiful and I think they kind of that resemble the whole Earth Catalog format. The whole Earth Catalog was 11 by 14 and so with shelter and I've never done a book that big. Well for one thing, they're expensive. But the other thing is bookstore shelves don't accommodate big books like that. They did in the, in the 70s when there were a bunch of books out there that were large. I wish I could do [00:10:30] one like that, but, but our books, our am, each of our books has got a thousand photographs in it. They're pretty graphic. I wanted to ask you, you seem to focus on building your own home, but small homes, all your books, or at least the ones I'm familiar with are kind of about tiny or small. Speaker 4:Can you differentiate between tiny and small and talk about why you think now that small homes are the way to go versus tiny? The media loves tiny homes. They're very photogenic. They go in the opposite direction of the houses [00:11:00] that were getting bigger and bigger. Even children, little five-year-olds. They like tiny houses, tiny homes, because they can relate to them. The book we did was under 500 square feet. Some of them are on wheels. It's tiny homes. Tiny homes. Yeah. And then, and then we did a book called tiny homes on the move, which was about nomadic, tiny homes on wheels or in the water basically. I thought, well, you know, not a lot of people are in spite of all the, there's TV shows on tiny homes, which are basically phony [00:11:30] a, they're like reality shows and there's all this attention. If you, you know, every day there's articles on tiny houses or tiny homes, but it's not realistic that many people are gonna want to live in a 200 square foot house. Speaker 4:If a couple, uh, does that, you're going to have to get along pretty well and maybe each have your own tiny home. Uh, but uh, so then we started, so I started collecting on homes in the 400 to 1200 square foot category. So that's what small homes is. That's what the small homes [00:12:00] book most recent book is. Small homes. Yeah. Right size. And that has a lot more relevance to a lot more people than tiny homes. But tiny homes is still got that cache, you know, it's a buzzword. Cities have started to embrace the idea. Even Berkeley a lot in the northwest and northern California of using them for homeless populations as or for, you know, putting in your backyard because of the high cost of grants. Is this a bad solution in your opinion? No, it's a good solution. I mean, but, but a small homes are really more relevant than tiny [00:12:30] homes. Speaker 4:I mean, I don't know if Berkeley's doing it, but Santa Cruz and Portland, Oregon and Vancouver have ordinances that allow you to build a like a granny flat in the backyard. So your mom's 93 years old and you don't want to spend 60 grand a year for her. You can't in a rest home, you build a little place in the backyard and these cities have made it easier for you to do that without having, just like start from scratch because you've already got sewer, water and electricity there, so you don't need a full blown new building building permit. [00:13:00] So that's, I think that's a really a great thing. And that's starting to happen here too. Yeah, we're working on those. And those are legal. What is the average size of these granny flats that you're talking about? I don't think they are small. No. I would think they'd be in a five, 600 700 square feet versus the, yeah, I mean when you get up to four or 500 debt, that's kind of decent. Speaker 4:If it's, if it's a, if the architecture is good, if the interior's designed well, you know, that's a good size. That's a good thing that's happening. There's a lot of attention being given [00:13:30] to tiny homes for homeless people. I mean there's problems like sewage, I mean cheese I just saw in Berkeley this morning just to really, you know, you know, just look like a third world country with these guys camped out in garbage all over the place and you know, what else are they going to do? Are they going to go, it's not important that everybody live in a tiny home, but it's important that things get smaller, that they go in that direction. The American house, typical American houses like 2,800 square feet. So these, the largest of these quotes, [00:14:00] small homes is about half that size. And also if you're building for yourself, which a lot of our people do, you can build and then you can add on a smaller house is cheaper to build, cheaper to heat and cool. Speaker 4:Um, more practical, quicker to build. I think our people as say opposed to dwell magazine, people are do it yourself, people to all magazines. Very, I mean, I, it's, it's OK. I mean it's, um, there, but they're very sterile looking to me. [00:14:30] There's never anything out of place. My own house and people who are attracted to that kind of lifestyle, our houses might be messy. Uh, you know, they're, they're, they're center around the kitchen there that we hopefully have a vegetable garden. They seem to be very individual there. They're all over the place. Some of them are in cities. The personality of the house, well, some of them are in cities. Like there's a, two families in San Francisco bought a house, uh, and made it into a duplex legally so that they, they split the cost. So that lowers your costs in an expensive [00:15:00] city to have. Speaker 4:And another couple bought a rundown house in La for like $200,000 and worked on it and worked on it and fixed it up. So there are things you can do in cities. And the big thing, I think maybe almost one of the most important things, like back in the 60s we want to define 10 acres in the country and build a log cabin or so and Adobe house. Now I think if I were young, if I were in my twenties, thirties, I would look around in towns and cities at these small homes that are [00:15:30] in marginal neighborhoods. You know, say at Richmond, like I go around and I look a lot these little houses there, they're in Berkeley, they're small. And if you find an area that's maybe just recovering from, from being, you know, drug infested, you know, uh, and, and uh, you know, that been maybe the, the drug dealers have moved out and, and so if you buy, you can buy a small home and fix it up. Speaker 4:And so in this book, I have probably 80 photographs of these little houses and a lot of them are in Berkeley, Oakland, Richmond, I, [00:16:00] I say to people, okay, if I were looking around now, I would look in [inaudible], forget Berkeley, forget Albany, forget Marin County, forget Sausalito. But I would go look in Vallejo, San Leandro, Hayward, you know, these, uh, Pinole, uh, Rodeo, you know, I'd go look in these, these, you know, or, or small towns up in the Sacramento Valley. What happened in Sausalito is kind of typical, is that the artists first moved there because it's beautiful and wonderful. And then you have the [00:16:30] lawyers and accountants and people, doctors start paying a lot of money for the places in Sausalito or mill valley. And pretty soon it's not, you know, the artists have to move on. And so those places it's gone. I mean, the house, the cost of homes in effect, the whole bay area, uh, you know, is just absurd. Speaker 4:You know, unless you're making $300,000 a year. So we're at a point we have to quit extracting materials. We have to do that. Yeah, well, all these little [00:17:00] houses or you know, you've got the foundation, you've got to start. And so another thing about the sixties was it was a time, it was the most rich time and probably the history of the world. You could live on such a small amount of money back then, I mean, gas was 35 cents a gallon. There was this period when it was, it was after the war. Everything was booming and so you could take the time off to figure out what you wanted to do. Like if you wanted to change your life, I could work on building a house without having a full time job. Nowadays, it's more [00:17:30] tricky. What I did actually, when I was working as an insurance broker, I went home and built every night and on the weekends, so I was doing both of those things. Speaker 4:You know? Again, it was, you know, you could live on less money back then, so it's trickier now, you know? But I think still if you do it yourself, if you build it yourself, you're going to save 50% to begin with because a building is 50% labor and 50% materials. Jill, if you provide all the labor, then if you don't get a mortgage, you're [00:18:00] going to save another 50% because mortgages, you pay more in interest and you do in principle, prices rise every year, but still, so you can do any varying amounts of the work yourself. Maybe you're just going to hire somebody to do all the work, you know, but where maybe you're going to hire a carpenter and work along with them, you know, hire a plumber and help out. And so there's all shades of a [inaudible] Speaker 2:creates good community too. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Is another benefit. Yeah. [00:18:30] If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness. A weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm talking with Lloyd Con. Lloyd is a builder of books in homes for over 40 years. The message in Lloyd Con's books is that you can create your own home with your own hands using mostly natural materials. Speaker 3:[00:19:00] Yes, Speaker 2:a lot of homes. Do you know that you've visited a lot at, what's your favorite small home? Where is it? Do you have one? Speaker 4:I have a favorite. Uh, well I it burned down, but, um, it was, it was on a Hornby island in British Columbia. Why was it your favorite? It was just awesome. It was just, it was built by, well, my favorite builder in the world that I met after 40 years of studying builders [00:19:30] and homes. Turns out his name was Lloyd House. So Lloyd, I mean he's not in the books or anything. He's the most wonderful designer and builder in the world I think. And he built a house. Uh, it's one of those things, you have to see it to understand how, how wonderful and beautiful it was on an inappropriate, just the, the windows, the materials, the light, the setting. And it's in the book builders of the Pacific coast. It's called Stefan's house. Uh, but then I have another friend, my other best friend [00:20:00] in the world, Louis Frazier, as built couple of wonderful buildings. And my favorite buildings are in our books. Louise building is in homework, kind of the sequel to shelter. It came in 2004 and then builders of the Pacific coast, which is mainly builders in British Columbia was 2008 and then tiny homes, tiny homes on the move and then small homes and forthcoming of book on the 60s Speaker 2:well, let's talk about that. I was going to ask you, you've, you've been focusing on homes. What are you gonna say about the sixties? Speaker 4:There are TV [00:20:30] shows, books, magazine articles, museum exhibits right now because of the quote, uh, 50th anniversary of the summer of love and I'm including Berkeley, had hippie modernism. The Victorian Albert Museum in London had a, you say you want a revolution, a, there's an exhibit right now at the Dion. All this stuff has been coming out in the last three or four months and I'm looking at it and thinking that isn't the way I sought at all. And uh, this is all wrong or [00:21:00] this is at least, this isn't my version of it. I was born in San Francisco, I went to high school and the Haight Ashbury and I dropped out of the insurance business in 1965 because I was more interested in the counterculture than I was in my own generation. So I was looking at at all of that from a slightly different perspective. And so I watched, I lived in Mill Valley, uh, and I was going into San Francisco. Speaker 4:And so I thought, well, it may be, it's not that, it's not that these guys are wrong, it's just that I have my own view [00:21:30] of the 60s. And also there was the fact that the 60s changed my life, changed my life. So I'm saying, okay, here's what I saw happen, you know, and here's what was happening in 1963 in 1967, the summer of love, it was basically all over. Ken Keasy said something I read recently said that it's Haight Ashbury was a neighborhood. Uh, the 60s was a movement and everybody's focusing on the Haight Ashbury and the diggers and Peter Coyote. Well, the diggers were hard edge New Yorkers [00:22:00] who got to the Haight Ashbury kind of late and kind of took over. The people I knew left by then I started shooting pictures in the 60s and uh, so I've got black and white pictures. So I'm going to do a book that's different looking from the other books and saying, here's what you know, here was the Monterey pop festival. Speaker 4:Here's what happened there. And here's what happened. When I lived down in big surf for two years, you know, I was part of the 60s I wasn't in the Haight Ashbury and here were the first dances, you know, here's what it was like in San Francisco on those years. [00:22:30] And when this coming out, well, a project like all my projects is people say, well how do you, how do you build a house? And I say start. If you start, most likely you're going to be able to do it because as you go along, you'll, you'll learn as you go and you'll get a momentum. And so working on a book, I'll start on a book and I'll see if it looks like it's happening. And so I've started on this book about a month ago and it seems like it's working today. I kinda hit another octave in it, a working for an hour and a half on it [00:23:00] this morning on my laptop. Speaker 4:So I was an insurance broker for five years, 1960 65 I took a month off the insurance business and hitchhiked across the country to sort of think things out, like my walkabout. And I stayed in New York for a while and went out and visited my cousin who lived in, he was an artist in province town on Cape Cod and I was hitchhiking back into New York and I got picked up by these kids who were going to the Rhode Island School of design. Well you want to stay at our loft? You can hang out there if you want. Oh sure. Well we're going to a Bob Dylan concert night. You want to go? Yeah. [00:23:30] So it was $3 to get in. 1965 October I think. So I go to the concert, didn't really know much about Bob Dylan. I wasn't a folk music fan. The first half he did folk music. Speaker 4:If the cops let me get right up next to the stage, I said I was a reporter, I'm sure. Okay. So I had a camera, second half these guys come out with electric guitars. Oh, what's this? And so, so I shot pictures and a lot of people booed and walked out when he did the electronic music. And so years later I'm looking back at these pictures and I'm looking at this [00:24:00] guy saying, well that's Robbie Robertson. That's Rick Danko. It's like, that's the band. So anyway, so I, I, that's a nice little pictorial part. Oh yeah, it was, it was, yeah. And I, I've gone back and read about that period. And in fact there's, um, some records that have just come out in the last year on new bootleg albums from 1965 to 66 when he was, he started out at the Newport Jazz Festival with Mike Bloomfield playing the guitar. And then, you know, he hooked up with the band. Speaker 4:That'll be part of the book and then, yeah, [00:24:30] it's going to be fun. What you said that you think of the 60s as a movement. Yeah. Do you see any similarities in these small home movements today that you know that the millennials, what I think it is 20 year olds that I love those guys because they are, it's like they're discovering the 60s they're saying, hey, hey, what you guys were doing back then was pretty cool. They're reading the shelter book, which is, I don't know, four decades old and they're like it. So I think, I think that the millennials are a completely different group from their previous generation [00:25:00] and that's what's happening. They're looking back at that stuff and they like that they, they don't want to work for Google or maybe they want to work for Google, but they, they want to incorporate some of these things in their lifetime. Speaker 4:You know, like you don't have to do it all. I mean, maybe you're not going to have a great big garden. Maybe you live in New York, you're going to grow chives on your fire escape big consumers either. Yeah. I think that's, I think that's what's happening with the millennials is that they recognize what was going on back then. And actually it all kind of dovetails [00:25:30] with k. So here's all this, uh, attention now on the 60s with all these exhibits and all these TV programs and let's look at the 60s and figure out what worked and what, and a part of my book is going to be what didn't work. You know, that's kind of fun to think about it. It was stuff that did not work. You know, people are gonna want to get hold of you Lloyd. How can they best do that? Instagram and then a blog called Lloyd con.com and that's k to two Alto, y. Speaker 4:D. K h. N. I've done over 5,000 posts [00:26:00] on my blog. And then we also have a thing called the shelter blog, t h. G, the shelter blog. And then our website is sheltered pub.com we're, we're trying to use social media. I mean basically we, I want to do books and uh, we're, we're, I'm about to do a series of, of books that are print on demand books. The first one's going to be a driftwood architecture, a driftwood shacks, anonymous architecture on the California coast. It'll be like a 48 page color book. And then, [00:26:30] you know, various small books, small, you know, there's, there's a magazine article and then there's a book and then there's a booklet a, there are some things that don't warrant a whole book. You know, like I could do a 32 or 64 page book on Southeast Asia, but I can't do a 200 page book without spending years there. Speaker 4:So there are options now that I'm about to explore with doing small print runs and to get information out there. And how do people find your books? Are they available on earned bookstores? [00:27:00] They're Amazon. We can encourage people to go on to bookstores. Good. You know, they say the old is new again. Well that's not the whole picture. It's like the oldest being reconsidered in light of the new now. So you've got digital recording and then you've got vinyl is making a big comeback because there's a quality to the analog that you don't get with the digital. So I think you have to balance those things. I mean, you can balance those things. So it's kind of fun to think how can I bring some analog [00:27:30] into this digital world? You know, how can I do stuff for myself and look at my hands, you know, to look at our books, really the best way to do it. Speaker 4:Or look at the blogs or look at what I'm doing and, and maybe pick up on some of the, the ways of doing things for yourself with shelter or with food that don't have to be all encompassing that, that that's maybe you're not going to spend full time building a house or farming or gardening, but that you can incorporate some of those things into your life. And [00:28:00] so I'm not responsible for online stuff that people do for whatever they do in the digital world. But I think that the value of our work is that here are things that you can do with your own hands that will make your life richer. And we'll end. We'll be, we'll produce results that will make your life richer, but there will be also good in the doing. And that are also sort of basic, um, human skills that have only been neglected for the last maybe a hundred years. Speaker 4:Like since the industrial revolution, [00:28:30] you know, before that everybody created their own food and shelter. So maybe you go back and you kinda do some of those things, weave it into your life. You know, when you're still checking your email every day and, and your computer is not going to build a house for you. You still need your hands and you still need a hammer. And a saw, you know, could be a nail gun and an electric saw. But it's still, so those things, it's kind of comforting to me that, that that's still the way food and shelter are provided [00:29:00] to, you know, just you, you do it, you know Speaker 2:yourself. Well, thank you for being on the program. That was Lloyd Kahn, editor in chief of shelter publications where he's been writing about small homes. For the last four decades. You've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley, celebrating Bay area innovators. [00:29:30] You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be taking the month of August off at method to the madness. We'll be back again Fridays in September. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Non-profit Perennial Farming Initiative Executive Director Nathan Kaufman believes food is our best resource in fighting climate change through projects like Aquaponics, Carbon Farming, a healthy soil guide, and growing regenerative and perennial grains.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public fair show on [00:00:30] k a l x Berkeley celebrating fate area innovators and your host, Lisa Keifer. And today I'm speaking with Nathan Kaufman, executive director of the Perennial Farming Initiative, a nonprofit organization dedicated to combating climate change from a culinary perspective. Speaker 2:Okay. Speaker 3:Welcome to the program. Nathan, thank you so much for having me. You're the executive director of the perennial farming initiative here in the bay area, [00:01:00] both in San Francisco and over here in the East Bay. What are the problems you're trying to solve with the perennial farming initiative? Speaker 4:So for us, it's, you know, trying to make transformative change in the food system. For us, I think it's especially about engaging individuals to use their consumer power to create the changes that they want in the food system every day. Speaker 3:What are some of the projects you've started in order to do that? Speaker 4:Why don't we start with the greenhouse? Okay. Yeah. So we manage greenhouse over in West Oakland, which [00:01:30] is basically set up to capture all of the food waste or the bulk of the food waste from the restaurant. So what we do is in the kitchen, our food scraps, you know, when they're doing prep, we'll split that into vegetable waste and basically everything else, our vegetables are fed to red wiggler worms, standard composting worms. A lot of folks in Berkeley, you'll know about those, our meat and our dairy and our bread, all of this stuff, you know, that can't be fed to worms. We feed to what are called black soldier fly larva to basically a fly, you know, while it's still a Grub, [00:02:00] we then harvest our worms and our Grubbs periodically uh, dehydrate them and use them as a feed to raise white Pacific sturgeon and blue channel catfish. We then utilize the manure produced by those a sturgeon and catfish as a fertilizer to grow hydroponic vegetables, which then ultimately go back to the restaurant. Speaker 3:Sounds like a full closed loop of sustainability. Yeah. You also are involved in carbon farming. Yeah. So it is carbon farming. Speaker 4:So carbon farming is [00:02:30] basically a way of ranching that actually increases the amount of carbon in the soil rather than decreasing it. Cattle can be really, really detrimental for soils if not managed correctly. You know, they'll eat grass down to the bare root, exposing it to sunlight, basically killing the grass. Uh, what we do in a managed grazing setting is move those cattle around more frequently and keep them on smaller pastures. This basically keeps them from eating the grass down all the way [00:03:00] so that essentially in you know, 20 or 30 days whenever they, you know, do the full rotation and come back to that pasture, it's fully regrown. The big emission with cattle grazing is the methane production that we're associated with them. What carbon farming has shown is basically by having these managed grazing techniques, you can actually sequester more carbon into the soil. Speaker 4:Or rather the offset is such that the amount of carbon sequestered into the soil by allowing those grasses to stay [00:03:30] healthy, allowing s the soiled remain covered is greater than the methane emission associated with the cattle. Know today. Current practices, especially on large farms is what so on on, you know, most cattle ranches, you see like a calf cow operation where it's essentially, you know, you have a really large property, say a thousand acres and your cattle have free range over all thousand acres. So they're going to go to the best spots. They're going to, you know, like most of us cows are lazy. They don't want to walk, you know, walk up [00:04:00] six mile trek every single day. But if you think about what they'd be doing in nature, date, of course, be dealing with predators and they'd have to be finding new source of water. So that movement, um, is really what's important in managed grazing. Speaker 4:And that's the way it used to be, right? Yeah. Long ago when we first, Oh yeah, think about, you know, Willdabeast on the Serengeti, you don't see one over here and one over there. Do you see all 200,000 in a tight little clump. They're all fighting to be the one in the center and they're moving constantly. [00:04:30] So they're not eating the grass down completely. They're depositing their maneuver in really dense concentrations. So it actually is a huge boost of fertilizer for that soil because they're so dense. They're also actually work, you know, kind of working the, and massaging, uh, their manure into the soil with their hooves. So, you know, all sorts of ways that benefits the soil. Speaker 3:I also read that the perennial farming initiative has been working with bakers, farmers, millers and food activists to make the bay area [00:05:00] a hub for regenerative and perennial grains. What are you doing with regenerative grades? Speaker 4:So what we've done is taken [inaudible], which was developed by the Land Institute. It's a perennial wheat grass. So we serve at a variety of ways at the restaurant. Uh, we have a standard bread and butter, you know, Kerns a toast and butter. It's a house made butter housemate bread. Very delicious. We also do a seasonal toast. Um, so right now it Keratin toasted walnut, you know, in a few weeks it'll be cherry tomato in [00:05:30] a, you know, a few weeks after that there'll be cauliflower. You know, it's really just the moving with the seasons, but onset currents of bread. We also have occurrence of beer produced by Patagonia provisions. So really for, you know, for us it's great to have a variety of different things on the menu. Um, that all show exhibit how a perennial grain can be just as delicious, if not more than what you think with an annual. Speaker 3:What is so special about this? What makes it part of the sustainability? Yeah, so Speaker 4:what's so special about currency is [00:06:00] the fact that it's a perennial. So for annual wheat grass, you would grow it out, you'd harvest and then you till your soil afterwards. Tillage is good for farmers generally they're, you know, doing it to increase the aeration of the soil. They're doing it to increase a water retention. You know, essentially they're going and spading this, the fields so that it breaks up the surface of the soil. What this does though is it also releases a lot of the carbon stored in the soil by exposing all those microorganisms, which have previously [00:06:30] been, you know, several inches to several feet below the surface. By digging those all up, it rapidly decomposes a lot of those, uh, microorganisms. The carbon's released. What's Nice about Kearns, uh, is there isn't the root requirement for tillage. So first of all, you're not breaking up the soil. Speaker 4:And secondly, Kearns, uh, can grow roots, you know, tens of feet deep versus your two, three, four foot annual wheat. Um, so the sheer ability to store carbon via its, you know, its rhizome deeper and deeper into the soil, [00:07:00] gives it a far better carbon sequestration, uh, capacity than annual wheat. Has the interest in carbon farming come about because of the percentage of carbon release through agriculture? Do you know what that is? Oh definitely. So it's quite comparable to the emissions associated with all transport, all cars, your shipping, your commercial shipping lanes, everything. So if we, you know, and the thing that we don't talk about is that unlike taking cars off the road, if we change our agricultural practices, we not only have the ability to reduce these emissions, [00:07:30] we have the ability to reverse these emissions. There are few things that have the ability to actually take carbon from the atmosphere and store them in the soil. Plants have been doing it for billions of years. So what we, you know, we're trying to do is basically just co-opt what nature has been doing forever. Step back and let it, let it do its thing. Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness. A weekly public affairs show on [00:08:00] k a l x Bertram Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Nathan Kaufman, the executive director of the perennial farming initiative. It's a nonprofit organization that believes food is our best resource in the fight against climate change. [inaudible] one of the projects you're doing is aquaponics Speaker 4:[00:08:30] in West Oakland. Can you describe what that is? Basically, aquaponics is the conjunction of fish farming, aquaculture and hydroponics. Hydroponics is basically just growing plants without soil. So if I was talking about growing in soil, it'd be geopolitics. Uh, instead we're using a water solution. What we do is use our manure produced by our fish as a fertilizer for those hydroponic vegetables. So we grow a lot different leafy greens, uh, edible flowers. Are they sitting right on the water? So we have a variety [00:09:00] of production methods. We do. We have what's called a deep water culture bed where basically you have a raft sitting right over the water. The roots grow down in, this is great for like leafy Greens, watercress is salaries, stuff like that. We also have what's called a nutrient film system where basically a small trickle of water runs over the roots. Speaker 4:We also actually utilize that same fishermen newer to do soil based agriculture. So we have raised beds on our farm as well, where basically we're just uh, what's called fertigating. We're [00:09:30] fertilizing and irrigating at the same time through a drip irrigation system. Where are you located in Oakland? So we're right off of West grand on 23rd do you invite schools to come and look and see what you're doing or can people come and see? Yeah. So we've worked with a, a couple of charter schools and a couple of private schools so far, but we're definitely working on trying to make a better program to start to be able to offer field trips for public school programs and how to do this exact, yeah, I mean, can regular people with race gardens, is this something I could do at my home in Berkeley? Oh [00:10:00] yeah. What's part of what's so cool about aquaponics is it's, it's scalable. Speaker 4:It's something that, you know, I've worked on 10 acre aquaponic farms that are producing hundreds if not thousands of pounds of vegetables a day. And I've also, right now got a 10 gallon aquaponics system sitting on my kitchen counter, you know, that I use to grow parsley and kitchen herbs. So what's cool about it is that it's the same principle whether you're growing acres and acres of produce or handfuls of [00:10:30] produce. Really it's the same process. Um, we rely on a beneficial ecology in the water. So we rely on what are called nitrify ing bacteria. They take the ammonia that fish produce via their metabolism. They break it down into nitrate. You can kind of think of nitrate as miracle grow. It's, it's just great, great for plants. And, uh, as the plants absorb that nitrate use it to grow, they actually remove it from the water, keeping the water nice and clean for our fish. Speaker 4:So it's a great kind of symbiotic system. The fish stay nice [00:11:00] and happy and clean water. The plants get all the nutrients they need. What are you doing or are you involved in any nationwide initiatives working with large corporations because the rest of the country and especially the rural areas suffer from food deserts and absolutely. Yeah. So we, we do have like nationwide partners, so we work with the Lens Institute on their current project. Uh, you know, we try and support like-minded projects and other municipalities. What we're trying to do is really just be an inspiration. [00:11:30] If all our contribution has been, is to get Kerns and mentioned in the newspaper a few dozen times, like good enough because it's really people starting to see that there is a demand. That's what we're trying to, people are reaching out to you from other areas of the country. Yeah. And we, you know, we've had a lot of interest from other chefs. Speaker 4:It's been fun to see passively folks change their buying. One thing we've noticed is that there is aquaponic produce in a lot more restaurants in the bay area than there were a few years ago. [00:12:00] So again, you know, just trying to, trying to break down the norms that exist within our food system and really kind of shake things up for people. Um, so that it doesn't feel weird and it doesn't feel foreign and the idea of eating, you know, let us grown from fish poop, you know, isn't something that's gross. It's something that's beautiful and delicious. And I want to talk about some of the methods that you are using through donations to support farmers. Yeah, so we have our compost drive. We basically take a percentage of restaurant revenue [00:12:30] and divert it into fund to basically buy large amounts of compost to then apply to ranch land. Speaker 4:You know, the application of compost definitely kind of kick-starts the soil biology, um, allows for greater sequestration year after year after year. So it's kind of the gift that keeps on giving. It also helps with water retention. So it's great, you know, for periods of drought, the big obstacle that was cost, you know, the thing holding up most of these farmers is that they just simply can't afford it. So what we wanted to do that surprises me. Like [00:13:00] I didn't know farmers didn't use compost already. Oh yeah. You know, there are, there are definitely farmers who do, but you know, it's, it's something where if you don't have the means or if you don't have like the staffing for someone to apply it, or if you don't have the infrastructure, if you, you know, it's just, you know, it's containable it's very, very costly. So we tried to do is just take the cost out of it. Speaker 4:We wanted the farmers to focus on farming, not on their checkbook. So what do you do? [00:13:30] So, uh, in addition to what we take from the restaurant revenue, uh, we'll also give people the ability to donate themselves. So you can go online to perennial farming.org and donate a cubic yard of compost to a farmer. What we'll basically do is aggregate that until we have say 200, 400 cubic yards worth of material purchased and then we'll go and do a onetime application with several truck loads. That's such a gift to farmers. How would they ever say no to that? Not only do you provide the compost, but you [00:14:00] apply it exactly certain, so to take cost out of the equation for them. Um, so it's just about, hey, do you want better yields and do you want to help the planet? Oh, well I can do this. Speaker 4:They can't afford. Exactly. There's not, there's not a malicious intent. Um, it's just, you know, that for a lot of people they are consumed by the fear of losing their farm. Um, so if we can, we're not trying to shame farmers in a, changing their practices. We're all about the carrot and the stick. You know, we're really [00:14:30] just trying to lure people in to changing their production habits by showing them, hey, there's, there's demand over here. You know, there's money to be made in being more sustainable. There's money to be made in something that's more environmentally friendly and more equitable and doesn't have all these negative externalities associated with, you seem to know a lot about farming your background where you farmer. So, no, I didn't really growing up, I hadn't really dreamed of being a farmer. I grew up here in the bay area, a Lafayette [00:15:00] and uh, you know, I'd always been kind of a biology nerd, loved plants and animals, but more, it's just kind of a curiosity. Speaker 4:When I got to UC Santa Cruz, I had originally been a plant physiologist and was studying albino redwoods. Um, you know, which was just so interesting and crazy. Yeah, most people don't, but it was something where, you know, I felt that I wasn't getting to do enough dynamic problem solving. Like I re, you know, I'm one of those people where I always want a new challenge. I always want to be working [00:15:30] to get better and better and better. When I started taking classes on the farm, I just saw this immense opportunity where, you know, you've got the most complex problem solving there is taking place every day. You know, people don't like, you don't realize it until you start your own garden. Oh yeah. You don't realize that every farmer is also an ecologist that, you know, they're managing ecosystems, not just their farm. It's not just about the yield, it's about every [00:16:00] plant and animal that is in their purview because all of it's gonna have an effect, either positive or negative. Speaker 4:So it's, hey, how can we work with the natural world rather than against it? And that's been taken away by them. It had a big, yeah. Agribusiness and yeah. So I started working on farms when I was at Santa Cruz after graduation. Went on a, started managing a homestead up in the mountains. We're really, you know, we were breeding fish doing aquaponics, raising goats and chickens and Guinea fowl, you know, [00:16:30] all sorts of stuff. Um, and that's where I really kind of solidified my love of farming. After that, I came up here to the bay area. How long did you do that homestead? Oh, I was up there for a little under two years and then came up to the bay area. Did the urban outta my fellowship. Actually built the aquaponic system over there during my fellowship, was hired on to staff there. And they do here in Brooklyn. Speaker 4:So Urban Hodamont is a great organization. We're a Jewish community farm over at sixth and Harrison Street. We have a ton of different programs. Right now we're [00:17:00] running at summer camp. Uh, we do school field trips. We have a residential fellowship program for folks. 21 to 31. Uh, we're basically, you come, you, you're running the farm every day. You're ready, you're running our farm. Whether that's the goats, the chickens, making sure the drip irrigation hasn't gotten, you know, busted overnight. The pest management, everything. You're also getting, you know, mindfulness training, all sorts of stuff. Uh, social action. And what do you do with all of your food? So at the end of the day, or rather each week [00:17:30] we run a farm stand where basically those who identify as in need can come get the produce from the farm. Cause you know, we, it's free. Yeah. You know, when you, when you deal with most food donations, you know, it's packaged products, it's stuff that may not be the healthiest because it is stuff that has to be shelf stable for a really long time. Speaker 4:So we wanted to give people the ability to get fresh produce from here in Berkeley. Everyone deserves deserves that. So we don't have cows yet. How did you get involved [00:18:00] in the perennial farming initiative? It was co founded by a couple of chefs in San Francisco. How did they find out about you? My cofounders are Anthony Meehan and Karen Liebowitz husband and wife duo. Xtrordinair. They found admission Chinese food or shouldn't bowling club Commonwealth. Um, you know, a ton of great restaurants and have also been, you know, Karen's been a very prolific food writer and really instrumental in the, in the San Francisco area. You know, the perennial is their baby or rather Aviva is their baby. And when they [00:18:30] had, you know, when they had a child to think about, they really started having those kind of Meta thoughts about like, what am I, what am I doing to make the world better? Speaker 4:You know, how, how can we use restaurants to make the world a better place for our children. Um, and that's really what kind of inspired them to make a restaurant dedicated to fighting climate change. They had mapped out everything from the build out of the restaurant using all locally sourced materials, ones that had a lower carbon footprint, ones that would use less, you [00:19:00] know, using appliances that would use less electricity, less water mapping out the workflow of the restaurant. So it's even, you know, requiring less refrigeration, all sorts of stuff. But then they really wanted to take it to that next level and start to address sourcing of ingredients. That's when they, they approached me. I was working at a farm down in Watsonville. Um, we were commercial food service, but we also did, you know, classes for folks to come down and learn about us. Speaker 4:And, and you were also running urban and I was also running urban auto ma at the time or [00:19:30] running the aquaponics program at urban out of Ma. And um, you know, so they, they really saw this opportunity of, hey, we've, we're into aquaponics. We love this idea of using aquaponics as a way to divert food waste, you know, and use it as a resource to make something, you know, amazing and delicious that goes back to the restaurant. So then they invited you in and that's when this initiative actually, yeah, no. So we actually, you know, early on it was just the, just the perennial. Um, [00:20:00] so it was the restaurant came first and then we started to see just how big the need was. Uh, did you see that? Because when we started we thought it was going to be something that, you know, we were going to be struggling to get people to see the light as it were and we were just overwhelmed. Speaker 4:But the, the support that we got, you know, the interest, you know, we really see ourselves as kind of being very close to that inflection point in the food system. So what we're just trying to do right now is kinda give that [00:20:30] soapbox to sustainable producers and you know, consumers to say, hey, this is what we want. This is what I've got and how can we help each other? And how did you go about funding this initiative initially? Yeah, so initially the perennial ran a Kickstarter that allowed us to get the farm up and running as well as our composting program. All of that. We also do take direct donation, perennial farming.org you can donate today. So you donate, but you get something in return. You get many different things. Many choices. [00:21:00] Exactly. So we, you know, for us, uh, we have our adoptive sturgeon program where you'll get some updates and pictures and everything like that. Speaker 4:You can come by the farm, actually meet your sturgeon, you have the full tour. We also have a, we have all sorts of events that we run. So either a barbecue or a tree planting where you can come help out for the day, eat a fantastic meal, be in, you know, gorgeous scenery and really feel like you've accomplished something at the end of the day. I also read that if you give a certain amount of money, you can get meat [00:21:30] from Stempel farm. Oh yeah. From Stemple creek. Yeah. So, you know, they're one of our big partners on the carbon ranching side of things. So you know, for us it's like, hey, it's like a win-win because for us it's, if you give a donation and you know, for us we're good, you know, you're getting some meat. But then it's also gonna change your consumption habit cause you see how fantastic their product is. Speaker 4:You know, for a lot of people it's, it's this eyeopening experience trying like a grass fed grass finished burger or steak or anything like that. You know. So really it's, it's trying to get it out there [00:22:00] as much as possible for folks. So are you, the three of you are all working in this. What are you looking to in the future? Are there any new plans or new initiatives that you are involved in? Yeah, so the big thing that we're working on right now is actually a healthy soil guide for chefs. And basically what that is, is it's akin to the Monterey Seafood Watch list. You know the Monterey Bay Seafood Watch list where you can look at the list and you can see if you should be eating orange roughy or you shouldn't be eating orange [00:22:30] roughy. We wanted to make something so people could look, see the information about a soil organic matter, which is basically the, the strongest correlation to carbon secret castration we have and basically be able to compare one farm to another to the regional average. Speaker 4:We also kind of give folks the ability to see other practices. We re, we focus on soil, organic matter, but we also give the ability to mark if you say they're doing polyculture, uh, if they're also doing grazing, um, if they have [00:23:00] perennial agriculture and beneficial hedge rows, if they're no till all sorts of stuff. Are the groups, the farms that you're going out to to come onto this guide, are you meeting any resistance at all or are they all like, oh, this is a great idea? No, a lot of them definitely see it as a, as a great idea. It, you know, initially we've worked with a lot of our partners that we've been working through with the perennial. So you know, it's, it's a bit of, yeah, it's breaching competitive structure. So, so I think, you know, for most producers [00:23:30] they see more information about their product as a good thing because it gives them that, you know, it gives the outstanding actors in the industry more stuff to market on. Speaker 4:You know, there's, there's things that, you know, don't directly correlate into a financial gain, but marketing can kind of help solve a lot of that. So being able to say, hey, you know what, I'm producing 200 head of cattle less than I previously was, but I'm also now sequestering 20 times the amount of carbon in the soil or [00:24:00] this or that or that. You know, we wanted to, to really provide options for farmers, you know, cause there's no, there's no one silver bullet. So for us, you know, it's about having this really diverse toolbox so that producers can plug in on a variety of levels. We don't need a full commitment. We don't need you to totally change your production model, but if we can get you to do something that lowers your emissions by 3% annually, like absolutely, we'll take it and this guy is going to be available too. Speaker 4:So we should, the guides should be available to consumers [00:24:30] and chefs this coming year. Um, you can kinda check out our prototype online@perennialfarming.org if, uh, also if you're a farmer and want to, uh, get involved and get your soil tested, reach out. We'd love to hear from you. And you also talk about all the different projects, the aquaponics, regenerative wheat and carbon farming. So, yeah, and we also, we post our events on there. So if you want to, uh, the next time we do say a tree planting or a dinner party, anything like that, you can find out about it there. What do you think your biggest accomplishment [00:25:00] has been at the perennial farming initiative? I think our biggest accomplishments so far is kind of just changing the conversation. You know, changing the tone of the conversation, changing who thinks they can make change. Like, we, you know, every, you know, it's so cliche, but the just like, oh, you can make a difference. Speaker 4:Everyone, we need every, you know, but what we're trying to show is really, it is, it's, it's easier and more delicious. It's something that you'll, you will be rewarded [00:25:30] in the long run because everyone eats because everyone eats and everyone likes good food. I don't know anyone who doesn't like good food, you know, if you have the option of eating out of your own backyard, do it. You know, it's a, it's, you know, it's not, we, we oftentimes get kind of wrapped up in the, uh, the financial side of grow, like having a garden in your backyard too. But there's, there's this deeply psychological side of it. You know, I would say to two raised beds, [00:26:00] probably work out to a couple of Xanax, but, you know, but you know, it's, it's, you know, it's free therapy. You know, it's, it's work, it getting your hands dirty, being in nature. Speaker 4:Um, you know, it can be tough here in the city. Um, but hey, we're in California. We can grow anything on them. All year, very often, especially here in Berkeley when we're talking about environmentalism and when we're talking about climate change and where we're talking about creating, creating change in our system, we can take on [00:26:30] an attitude of doom and gloom and anger. And I think one of the things that I took away from my education at Santa Cruz that has been immensely helpful in my professional career and just my thinking about the environment is really you've got to hit people with optimism. You've got to show people that there's a way out, that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. If we're only telling people how bad their decisions are and we're not, we're not making any friends. [00:27:00] So rather than lead with, hey, shame on you don't do that. Speaker 4:We need to extend the olive branch. We need to be working with people that we disagree with and showing them that there are low hanging fruit abounding. You know, for a lot of folks, they're not making these decisions because they want to support the environment or they want to do this. It's, you know, a cold, hard economic decision for a lot of sustainability practices. It's just better for the pocketbook. For us. It's not about, or for me personally, [00:27:30] it's about hitting people where they're at. If you want to talk about a conservation biology and about, you know, saving species and forestalling deforestation, I'm happy to do that and would love to, I could talk your ear off, but if you also just want to talk about how these are sound financial decisions that are going to, you know, increase yield, decrease labor costs, decreased fertilizer costs and things like that as water decrease water use. Speaker 4:Also happy to just [00:28:00] talk about it from a financial point of view. If you studied biology in college, people need to start thinking about going into farming. Oh yeah. People need to be going. Young people need to be going into farming. Um, and I, you know, uh, talking to all you graduate students out there, you know, if you don't know what you want to be doing right now, think about farming it. It is, you know, problem solving. It's complex, it's complex. Um, it's challenging. You're always doing with new things and there is a need for you. You know, there are not [00:28:30] enough biologists out in the field. Um, there aren't enough young people out in the field. However, you can get involved, you know, have a garden in your yard, visit farms, you know, start shopping at the farmer's market. Whatever you can do. Um, just start the ball rolling. You know, it's not going to be an all at once. Systems change. It's going to be real slow, but it starts with, you know, single footsteps. Yeah. Tiny things. Thank you for being on the program. Nathan, thank you so [00:29:00] much for having me. Speaker 1:That was Nathan Kaufman, the executive director of the perennial farming initiative. He's also the director of living systems at the perennial restaurant in San Francisco, as well as the aquaponics program at urban automa and educational farm and community center [00:29:30] right here in Berkeley. You've been listening to method to the madness of weekly public affairs on k Speaker 3:a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be back again next Friday at noon. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Lisa Kiefer talks with Ed Bice, co-founder and CEO of MEEDAN, a San Francisco company building digital tools and programs that promote collaborative verification, annotation and translation for global journalism in the fight against 'fake news.'TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Your listening to method to the madness or weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Keifer. And today I'm interviewing Ed Bice, cofounder and CEO of media, San Francisco Company building digital tools that assist global journalists in the battle against fake news. You're on the front lines of what is kind of a hostile [00:00:30] environment to journalists right now. Yup. Let's talk about what technologies you're enabling to help journalists out there. Speaker 2:Journalism has been embattled for a long, long time. The shift we've seen in the journalism threat model in the last five years is we went from worrying about where revenues are coming from. We solved that issue in part by thinking about new commissioned content models and, and then suddenly we woke [00:01:00] up with a new president, this crazy lunatic in the White House. And we looked inward as journalism and journalism tech community and, and we noticed that, that we had lost trust and we'd lost our ability to assert a set of facts and have those prove more durable and influential than a set of provably not facts. And I think that we went from this deep despair over [00:01:30] not having a really good revenue business model to a more existential threat of really not having the words that were writing and the, the stories that we're publishing have influence and have meaning. Speaker 2:And this is, this is a deeper crisis than, than uh, the business model. Is this when you founded or cofounded meet and, no, we have to go way back. Median has been around since [00:02:00] very early days of social web. It started with the war in Iraq protest and I'm sure many of your listeners where we're at, the protests in the bay area, on the first day that we started dropping bombs, it was a profound global moment. It was the first time I f I felt globally networked even though I'd been on the Internet since it wasn't Internet. There was on that day, this awareness that hundreds of marches were happening around [00:02:30] the world, literally tens of millions of people were taking to the streets to say, this is not what we want. This is not how we should respond. Second Year of the post nine 11 era feels so naive now. Speaker 2:But I remember thinking as I was walking the streets of San Francisco that wow, this is what it looks like when we're able to change influence history. And, and there was really a sense that the power of this many people could do it. I went [00:03:00] with, um, my good friend Rouge Giuseppe, uh, who is, he was a human rights photographer who had worked in El Salvador Rouge and I were kind of separated and there were some people blocking market street and I was standing on the sidewalk and I can still kind of imagine the, uh, bald, very tall, very large policemen, uh, reached out, grabbed me from the sidewalk, pulled me into the street and said, you can't be in the street. I'm arresting you. There are good cops. This was a bad [00:03:30] cop. I was not intending to be arrested that day, but I was arrested along with I think 1300 other people, straps around the risks and put on the bus and hauled over to pier 39. Speaker 2:And I didn't know it at the time. I would've, I would've kissed the guy if I had known how he would have changed my life at the time. I wrote an email from that experience, send it to five friends via, I think it was an AOL online email account. And, uh, [00:04:00] one of those friends who was, uh, an environmental scientist wrote back and his dad had started a tool company. He built it up and he and his wife had inherited some money and he said, ed, I want to publish your, the email that you've sent, you know, in my email, questioned what we're doing post nine 11, you know, with my experience as, as a person who had traveled in the Muslim world and who had had homes open to me and just who had just such a different understanding [00:04:30] of the world. You know, I also had the experience of studying with Paul Wells, stone in college, and, and so I had this latent to activism, right? Speaker 2:And, and I expressed that into this email, you know, just what, what, what the hell are we doing? This is crazy. We're creating generations of, of misery for, for this sculpture. And they Rakhi people. And he wrote back and said, I want to publish this as a full page run in the New York Times so that people can have a different perspective on what's going on. And I know it sounds [00:05:00] crazy, but this feels to me like this incredibly important moment in history. Within 10 minutes I wrote him back, I'll do this, but it's not my, I'm not gonna publish my words in the New York Times. I'm going to go out and find statements from people in Iraq and people in Palestine. I'm going to put those beside statements from Americans and Israelis and we're going to start this peoples opinion project. We will run this as a full page ad in the New York Times and we will go out and source this content [00:05:30] from around the world and it'll get people thinking it'll be provocative. Speaker 2:The idea was that we would do this, we would publish it, people would be so moved that they would send us money and we would do this again. And we'd start placing authentic, translated content from around the world, you know, into the New York Times. And, and, and kind of expand then to other papers and presses and, and, and is this the digital New York Times or was this the pace? This was the ink [00:06:00] and paper New York Times. And so in June of 2003 w we ran a full page ad that said in our efforts to bring democracy to the people of the world, we keep forgetting about the people of the world and then had these translated voices below that. And it was very inspiring and it didn't work. We know that in terms of the amount of money that it takes to produce and place and ad that goes out to 3 million Sunday [00:06:30] Times readers and the amount of revenue res we received back from that project, you know, it was an utter failure. Speaker 2:We had a, a short lived organization called the People's opinion project and did global opinion polling. So, so we showed some of the early trends around global opinion of us post nine 11 and post Iraq invasion. That was pretty profound. We were able to, to show that, you know, our actions had resulted [00:07:00] in this kind of loss of faith or trust in America. You mentioned that you had experienced in the Arab world. Did you live there? What was your I traveled and it wasn't the Arab world actually, although all of our work since then has been, but I traveled through Pakistan, through northern Pakistan and into western China Karakorum Highway. It's incredibly beautiful. The way we were treated there was, it was, um, it was formative. Anyone who's listening to this who hasn't gone [00:07:30] out into the world and traveled, you know, that that was my most important education from that early experience. Speaker 2:The effort in ethos early on was that the media diet, it leads to these really narrow perceptions, which in turn support ill-advised policy decisions. We wanted to broaden that and we saw the internet as a means of doing that. So everything we did in the early days had an online component. [00:08:00] You know, at the time I was, um, I was designing homes designed background, this like, this is a design problem. How do we diversify the media ecosystem? And the thing that we hit on early, early on was that language was such a fundamentally missing piece that the Internet was even in those days and this pre Facebook, but even in those days, the Internet was going to millions and millions and millions of people all around [00:08:30] the world. And it was a bunch of linguistically siloed communities. So no translation, there was no sense. Yeah. Not to speak of. Speaker 2:And any machine translation was so bad back then that fundamentally useless from that initial failed experiment, I started pounding the pavement, knocking on doors, calling people. And we've got the intention of an Israeli and Palestinian engineer at Carnegie Mellon University's language Technologies Institute [00:09:00] and that put in motion the last 12 years, which, which the patent for that, uh, translation, uh, you with, with, uh, a great technologist too who worked in Senator Leahy's office actually, is this when you founded this is, yes. So 2006. Yeah. Fast forward 2006 and there's, there's a hilarious story of which I think I've never told publicly. Shortly after the, uh, idea, Kinda jelled and the, these guys at Carnegie Mellon are like, yes, let's do this. And, and this [00:09:30] serious linguistic scientist is like, yeah, a crowdsourced human plus machine translation with a reputation model behind it. These are great ideas. We should, we should write this up and for what it's worth, we have a patent on this and still needed some money to do this right. Speaker 2:So one of my dearest friends in the world, his stepfather's uncle, really, really successful banker in New York. And I asked for a meeting, pretty nervous, but his family had, [00:10:00] had, um, escaped the Holocaust and I knew that he was pretty motivated to contribute back. So I went into his office overlooking Central Park. I had quit my job. I had done crazy things which were unpopular with my family to try to get this thing off the ground. And so I went into his office with very quite nervous and penniless. Uh, I gave him the pitch and I said, you know, language technology plus this thing called the Internet. [00:10:30] Imagine that must've appealed to him because you're getting at the truth. Yeah. Yeah. He looked at me and he pointed at this picture of his grandfather at the end of the conference table. He said, Mr Bias, my, my grandfather is smiling down on you today in 1904 or something like this. Speaker 2:A Swedish dentist walked into my grandfather's office and dressed in with a vision for language impacting global peace. And I looked at him and I said, Esperanto, [00:11:00] I was going to say that, yes, that came out of the same kind of divisiveness. And he said, precisely, Huh? My grandfather funded Esperanto and I'm going to give you some seed funding to try to put this idea in. Motion. Language is such a fundamental divider. It's not a surprise that many people have said, oh, if only we could talk a common language, you know, the world would be a better place. So that put in motion, meet Dan and MacArthur Foundation was one of those friends. The real break for [00:11:30] us came when IBM put two of their research labs at our disposal. You know, we've had partnerships with IBM and now have a good partnership with Google, Google News Lab, you know, their interest is in seeing more data. And so IBM's interest was in us using this network to bring in more human data on top of the machine processing so that they can improve their models with Google news lab. Now we're looking at how we bring in more credibility, how we can get journalists writing indicators of a, [00:12:00] an article's credibility. Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Ed Bice, the cofounder and CEO of me, Dan, a San Francisco Company building digital tools and programs that promote collaborative verification and rotation and translation supporting journalists around the world. [00:12:30] So are you a nonprofit? Yeah, so we [inaudible] Speaker 2:uh, three years ago we were offered a big contract to do software development with one of the large social networks and so we, we did form a for profit. Then and the nonprofit has an equity stake in that. We are a unique hybrid. 98% of our work is with the nonprofit. Now I first heard about, or read about me Dan with the Arab spring, all the protests and you all were pretty instrumental [00:13:00] in translation. Yeah. Yeah. So as soon as we started meeting in, we hired a small team in Cairo and started working on translating Arab media and, and commentary on that media and putting that alongside a US versions of that media or western English language versions of that media and translating the English language into Arabic. So we, we built kind of the Internet's first bilingual side by side news site. We had roots in Cairo. Speaker 2:[00:13:30] Some of our good friends were in the middle of the the revolution and, and still are, um, we still have deep connections with Kairos, still have employees there. We spun off a media project there two years ago that was just blocked by the state of Egypt when we were doing translation work during Arab spring. The stuff that was coming off of Twitter and Youtube and Facebook was incredibly important. We found that having no way to provide [00:14:00] notes about the sources of that content, uh, no way to really do investigations into the, the assertions made in that media. We felt like that was an area that deserved some development. So we went to, um, some of our funders and said, hey, why don't you help us next phase of media and it's going to be about not just translation on top of the social content, but also a verification and annotation, [00:14:30] annotation, building context, helping and you have specific products for that. Speaker 2:I was reading about. Yeah. So, so check is, is that product that came out of bar experiences and, and it's, and it's intended to be really simple. It's a tool that allows for collaborative verification notes. It also performs some machine processes, like makes it easy for a journalist to go out and look at the reverse image search. Uh, [00:15:00] so if, if a piece of social media contains an image, uh, we provide a quick link that says, okay, here's where that image has appeared elsewhere. So if you see that it actually came from 10 years ago in Sudan in is not a picture of a current protest in Egypt. Say you've saved yourself a a an embarrassing moment because we are kind of early to that verification space. Google news lab came to us three years ago when they were starting the first draft initiative. So we are one [00:15:30] of handful of NGOs and media orgs that came together to form the first draft group, which is been doing amazing research trainings, kind of leading a lot of the important work in news verification and fact checking space. Speaker 2:Um, and it's run by a brilliant woman named Claire Wartell who was a before that or the research director at the Tau Center, the Columbia School of journalism and, and first draft is on a, uh, [00:16:00] a steep growth curve. And, and so I think you'll continue to see a lot of really great things coming out of that organization. And I think our contributions to that have been one of the really big success stories out of me. Dan, let's talk about election land, which is an amazing moment in journalism history. The election land project was, um, spun out of that same first draft, Google news lab, me, Dan, but, uh, with the Google trends team and Propublica [00:16:30] in the lead. So propublica really, really loved prep. Yeah. They're amazing. Really great people. So 94 days before the election, I got invited to Washington DC to meet with Scott Klein and from propublica and, uh, Simon Rogers from Google trends and, uh, Clair from first draft and small set of people. Speaker 2:And they're like, well, we want to do nationwide election monitoring, you know, with a thousand journalists [00:17:00] 90 days from now. Uh, yeah. And at this point we were in, in a rewrite of, of our software. And so I said, yes, of course. So it was, it was a mad dash to pull that project together. And it's now collecting all sorts of awards. There's now a case study, uh, we've recreated this, uh, for the French election now with a project called crosscheck and a UK general election project as well with a popup newsroom component that had [00:17:30] a bunch of journalism school students together. So the model is evolving. Election monitoring has historically just been this, you know, big agencies checking boxes and observing things. And so this is really the recognition that the Internet, the social media landscape is this incredibly valuable area to do election monitoring to understand how elections are, are working in real time and try to respond to that. Speaker 2:So, so I think [00:18:00] there's something really important in this. The outcome was that you discovered there was no election fraud. Yeah, yeah. Shortly after the election, Trump was saying there was fraud. Yeah. So has he not seen this data now? He, um, you know, the, the, the irony is that w, you know, 94 days before the election, Trump had not talked about vote rigging. So we're, we're starting this project and we were like, Yep, you know, we're going to be in an amazing [00:18:30] position to look at voter day issues. And then, I don't know, 30 days, 40 days later, Trump says the vote's going to be rigged. And we're like, oh my God, he's just, he's doing our advertising, you know, marketing this project and, and, and making it incredibly important. But there were hundreds of articles that were filed from the findings on election day. Speaker 2:So the, the model that we had was, uh, work with a bunch of journalism school students and 300 local [00:19:00] media partners and source these stories in real time. I mean, it was a, it was a remarkable and remarkably complex operation, but we were signaling out to reporters during election day and the result of those signals was, I want to say between two and 300 stories may be off on that in terms of the comprehensive view from, there wasn't voter fraud. Propublica did a series of stories on that. Okay. So that was major, that was a pivotal moment, [00:19:30] but very costly, right? Yeah. Costly. Costly in terms of we had a hundred people in the CUNY, a journalism school newsroom on election nights. A certainly there's costs getting all those people together, but when you think about the person hours, we had a thousand journalists using the software. We had about 700 in check and about a thousand on the slack. Speaker 2:We use slack as a communication back end for the project. When you think about the person hours [00:20:00] that went into that, that came out of that project was pretty efficient investment. So this will continue. I would be shocked if we didn't do midterms and, and sh I believe election land is a models going forward and I think that first draft and pop up newsroom as global election monitoring efforts and, and the research that comes out of that is gonna. I think we've invented a whole new mode of election monitoring and, and I think it's gonna [00:20:30] be a really powerful and important tool, especially as we see the kind of weaponization, the misinformation campaigns that are now being waged around elections. The Bot armies that are being deployed to just, you know, misinformation. All of this needs to be addressed in, in efforts that identify and call out misinformation, disinformation campaigns in, [00:21:00] in the runup and, and, uh, into election day. Speaker 2:David Remnick New Yorker, he talks about this as the golden age of ignorance. Yeah. We're in, how do we, uh, fight the media moguls who take over, for instance, the guy who owns national enquirers now trying to take Time magazine. And all of those assorted of magazines and that's editorial content that how, how do we get around that kind of gaming? The answer used to be the Internet, you know the Internet, it'll save us [00:21:30] from, from this. Have you guys all talked about that you, you were just at a conference in Italy International Journalism Festival at a certain level, the same consumer appetite that had people clicking onto bula and Outbrain's ads as a means of supporting serious journalism is now supplanting serious journalism with that sort of reporting in there. There are some good signs in subscription models and [00:22:00] what's happening for the post and the Times. Speaker 2:There's a lot of people who are saying, Oh okay, we do need to pay for this. And maybe that's one positive trend out of all of this. But the idea that people who are just dead set to promote agenda driven media are, are going to control influential. You know, Fox News feels, feels very innocent in comparison, [00:22:30] you know, with these efforts. So the idea that you know, that Breitbart would become as influential as foxes is, is David Pecker with the time empire? If that happens, it's terrifying. So that's continuing this silo, like people who believe a certain way, they know which outlets to go to and you and I may go to Propublican read what we know to be the truth. Are we never going to have the mediation between these groups through journalism that [00:23:00] that's the hope. But I mean really the, the deepest hope for journalism is that, um, the truth, uh, has more weight than untruth, you know, if that is thrown out then, then the sorting mechanism, just his, because it all is in, is all about the truth. Speaker 2:It's, it's there. It's supposed to help us. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that we're in some, some really, really dark days and, and that, [00:23:30] these technologies that we thought were, you know, so liberating and so empowering and the wisdom of the crowd that would, that would surface and, and, and the sort of Wikipedia model re across human knowledge that would have affordances for editing and annotating and revising every object knowledge until it came to the point that was like, was better [00:24:00] or more true as we wade into conversations around the truth. One thing is that working in a global context, you're really humble about this truth. You recognize that there are a thousand truths that describe an important piece of every event. It's not just to descend into total relativism, but to acknowledge that context is, is always dependent on a cultural framing, [00:24:30] the reader framing the understanding the source better. Speaker 2:So I feel like I want to offer this disclaimer that as, as I'm saying, you know, we need the truth to mean more that I'm not saying there's not just there, there is one truth in the end and you don't have no, nor should there be one arbiter of the truth. And, and right now the one thing is very concerning for journalism is, is the, is the fact that Google and and Facebook are distributing and Twitter distributing, you know, these, these [00:25:00] are distribution pipelines that are so dominant right now, surely in terms of how the search algorithms and newsfeed are influencing what we're getting on a daily basis in our media diet. Those are the platforms that are very, very serious about saying we don't want to be arbiters of truth, but the algorithms that power newsfeed in power search are arbiters of meaning. And that is, is a pretty close proxy for truth. Speaker 2:You know, I think [00:25:30] we're in some really dark early days of understanding, um, how these systems, uh, were where it a failure point I think there is resolve to try to do better. And that's, that's, that's changed a lot since, uh, early November. They understand the problem and neither one of them is, is saying, oh, we need to build a truth algorithm, which is really good. And our role over the next year is going to be helping think about how signals from journalists [00:26:00] are treated by those platforms. So having a way of looking at how 30 or 40 different journalists from around the world are, are viewing a claim that might be circulating and, and then surfacing that into a Google search result as as a fact check. Would it post an alert to the yes or Google started doing this already. So Google and in some cases if you're on Google news and article contains [00:26:30] a claim that has been fact checked, they're just in this just in the last month starting to surface. Speaker 2:In fact check Facebook has dispute. We can better structure signals into those types of systems. I really respect the technology building you're doing for journalists. I think it's, it's really important. I worry about the flip side of that. There is less curiosity today because of some of the technologies that have been built. Readers become [00:27:00] lazy. They don't do the deep connecting. They put trust where they shouldn't. What do we do about that? That, I mean it's, the technology is partly to blame for that. Before we had to open an unfolded the newspaper. Yeah, it is nanny's garden next to, you know, bombing in Yemen. I think the response to that is, well, two things, decay of society motivates people to realize that sitting [00:27:30] back and allowing the media system to decay has some real bad consequences. But also thinking about tools that allow people to, to feel that they have, um, more agency than just putting up a, uh, a smiley face or a, you know, a, a sobbing face in those go to structural issues with the web. Speaker 2:How do we Wikipedia FY the Internet in a better way [00:28:00] so that even citizens can write signals in a structured way that a journalist who wants to take in those signals or who's looking for them or who's maybe gotten a really credible signal from that person before might look at and say, oh my God, this needs to be written about because it's going to change this story. What's coming up for you in the future? Bridge is our translation project. So we're working to bring that product into open [00:28:30] source and we're also looking to integrate bridge as a translation solution with check, which is verification solution. So a lot of these events that break around the world are reported outside our language community, giving journalists a good way to get firsthand data, get that professionally translated, then do verification work. On top of that, we're working with some, some stellar partners. Speaker 2:So we've got projects in the pipeline now with the Syria of Video Archive, [00:29:00] uh, which is a really important project to archive and mark up videos, uh, that we hope will have evidentiary value. The Digital Verification Corps, which is, uh, Amnesty International and Berkeley Human Rights Center project. Some of those projects are in the pipeline. We are keen to, to c check in more newsrooms in the u s and to repeat the election work that we've, we've, uh, been doing. If somebody wants to get ahold of you or, [00:29:30] or go to your website, if you could share that with me. Yeah, we're at me, Dan. It's m e e d a n.com. And uh, can always send me an email@helloatmedia.com. That email will go to me and my colleague on show, Mina and, and Tom [inaudible]. Anyone who's interested in contributing to open source software development or helping us think through some of these thorny issues that we're working on that we'd love to hear from you right now is this moment in history. [00:30:00] We need technologists, we need journalists. Uh, but we also need philosophers. I think we are dealing with issues of truth and ethics and we, we've created hugely powerful technologies and maybe we've lost our way. Maybe we needed more philosophers and academics involved in thinking through what this would mean. Speaker 1:Thank you so much and yeah, no, it was, it was my pleasure. That was Ed bice, the Co founder and CEO [00:30:30] of me. Dan, you've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley, celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be back again next Friday at noon. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Ali Nazar interviews Rachel Taber and Doug Hewitt, founders of 1951 Coffee Company in Berkeley, which is a non-profit focused on providing job training and employment to refugees and asylees in the Bay Area.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:[inaudible], Speaker 2:you're listening to k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California listener supported radio. And this is a method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calex celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Nasar. [00:00:30] And today in studio we have with us Rachel Taber and Doug Hewitt, the cofounders of 1951 coffee company here in Berkeley. Hi Rachel. Hi Doug. Hello. Good morning. Uh, thanks for coming in. Um, and the first question I always ask founders, we've had a lot of founders on the show and we always start with the same question, which is people create organizations for usually cause they see a problem and there's something they're trying to have a vacuum they're trying to fill. So, uh, can you guys [00:01:00] explain to us what is the problem that you're trying to solve with 1951 coffee? Speaker 3:Yeah, I can get started on it. Uh, Doug and I met while working at the international rescue committee, which is a global nonprofit that does humanitarian aid internationally and also has, um, dozens of offices across the u s that help resettle refugees. And I'd always been more on the volunteer coordinating and fundraising and operations side. And Doug was more deeply involved in employment [00:01:30] and resettlement and more of the hands on service and Hawaii office together a ton. And our programs overlapped. And I think for both of us, we, we saw the Herculean effort that resettlement agencies provide and what they're aiming to help with a refugee arriving. And there's just, there's not enough service providers, there's not enough people out there helping refugees. And so when a refugee arrives on the u s the US State Department sets the program [00:02:00] and they set it that the average amount that person will get arriving in the country, it's about a thousand dollars per person to restart their life. Speaker 3:And that amount doesn't really change depending on what city you're in in the u s and as you can imagine, that is not enough. It has to be used to help someone find a new apartment to help with clothing, supplies, transportation. And it has to be some money left over for spending. And so because of how the resettlement program is set up from the u s government, it [00:02:30] makes employment the most critical piece for refugee once they arrive in the u s and that's kind of, that was the crux of where we saw a lot of the needs. Speaker 2:Yeah. So the, the u s government expects for a refugee to be economically self sufficient within six months. Uh, that's the goal. And so that challenge is one that, that we saw that there needed to be a resource in the community, uh, that could help refugees overcome some of the barriers between them and the u s Speaker 4:[00:03:00] job market. And some of the things that we had seen, um, were, you know, not having references, not having verifiable, uh, work experience. And so we began to look and see if there was a way that we could create something in the community that would be a bridge between what the refugee resettlement agencies were doing and what us employers. Uh, we're, we're looking for, uh, in staff members. And so, um, we decided to, to create 1951 coffee company to kind of be that, that bridge between those two. Yeah. That's amazing. [00:03:30] And can you tell us what is 90 51 coffee? Why was it named that? Speaker 3:Uh, Doug came up with it, so I have to give him credit. And for anyone that's worked in the refugee resettlement world, you know, the date. And so there's maybe like 0.5% of the population that understands it, but it's the year that the UN held a convention in Geneva, Switzerland with the well over, I think 140 or 50 nations. And it set forth the definition, a legal definition for refugees and a guideline for their protection. And the linchpin of [00:04:00] that convention is something called [inaudible], which means that a nation that signs on to the agreement of protecting refugees cannot send someone home if they're there seeking asylum and protection from a fear of death in their own country or persecution. And what is the definition of refugee? It is, sorry, this is, I had, I had to memorize this recently for a presentation. Um, it is someone who owing to a well founded fear of persecution based on the reasons of race, religion, nationality and membership [00:04:30] of a particular social group or political opinion is outside of his or her country. And because of such fear they are unable or unwilling to avail themselves to their home country for protection. So it's basically someone facing persecution for these reasons. Race, religion, nationality, political group, social, you know, social group and they fear persecution or death in their home country and so greatly so that they leave and they have to leave. That's part of the definition. Speaker 4:And what is the U N program? [00:05:00] Um, the, I mean I'm assuming that it's not binding. It's a set of guidelines for countries that have signed on to the charter. Is that how it works? Right, right. So initially the, um, in 1951, it was looking at what was happening with World War II and a lot of it focused mainly on, on Europe. Um, later conventions came along and then the 1967 protocols came along that ultimately expanded to a global mandate. Um, but again, it is a, an agreement that people, uh, countries have signed on to, [00:05:30] um, to participate in the, uh, protection of refugees, of people who are fleeing, um, for, for reasons, as Rachel said, for persecution, for fear of death. Um, and a way to protect people in, in dire situations. Yeah. And, um, you know, we want to talk a little bit, I mean, it's, this is a problem that the world has seen for a long time. This is, as you said, in response somewhat to World War II, but right now we're seeing one of the greatest refugee crisis in history. And so I want to get to modern day, uh, the modern [00:06:00] day problems. And what'd you guys do in solving the second? But first I always want to ask founders, cause I think there's such an interesting breed of people who, uh, put things on the line to create something. And, um, so let's hear a little bit about your guys' sells. How about you first, Rachel, how did you come to working with refugees? Speaker 3:Uh, how did I, it was a dear friend of mine that we had met doing fundraising together. Um, I started a nonprofit straight out of college and doing grant writing and social enterprise work. And my husband's Grad school pulled [00:06:30] us out to the bay area. We were in Denver at the time, uh, and we took a day to figure out where to live and we decided it was Berkeley and we've been here for a decade now. And while doing, um, fundraising and development for a nonprofit in Walnut Creek, a dear friend of mine got hired at the IRC and I had been an international affairs major in college at, at UC Boulder. And they had a great program where they would host lost boys of Sudan. Uh, which a lot of people have heard of that documentary or [inaudible] of the fact that there were [00:07:00] thousands of orphan boys because of the conflict in Sudan. Speaker 3:And so families would host them and they would do a work study program. And a lot of them studied political science or international affairs in the hopes of going back home one day and you know, being the future leaders of their country. And so that was my first exposure to it. And so there was an open position at IRC and my friends slowly, um, pulled me back in and it was a great moment to kind of get more on the front lines and reconnect with what had been my collegiate passionate. And can you tell us what, what's IRC? [00:07:30] Oh, it's the international rescue committee and they're the, are they the biggest refugee resettlement organizations in America or, I'd say they're one of the leading, there's nine a, they're called voluntary agencies that are contracted with the US State Department to conduct the refugee resettlement program. Um, and I believe they have 25 30 offices around the U S in a humongous global presence. Okay. And my favorite part of that story, one of my favorite parts took you only a day to figure out live in Berkeley's. Yeah. John. Thank you. Uh, Speaker 4:Doug, what about you? How'd [00:08:00] you get to work with refugees? Yes. So I started working with refugees actually in a very literal sense. Um, I was working at a cafe and, uh, mill valley and there was a young man who had been hired to, to work there while I was, was there and we were, they had two cash registers and we were working side by side. And um, in, in getting to know him, you know, I could just interacting with them, I, I could tell, you know, we were originally was not from the United States. And, um, one day over lunch we had a lunch break at the same time and he, [00:08:30] I just asked, you know, how did you come to the u s and he began to share with me his story about coming from Eritrea and how he fled across borders and eventually boarded a boat to try to cross the Mediterranean, his journey. Speaker 4:Um, through that, you know, while we were sitting or there in that 30 minute break, uh, in mallet mill valley just completely changed, uh, the way that I had seen the world. I had never sat and talked with someone who had been on a journey like that. Um, and hearing his firsthand account and all the he had been through. And then to see that we were both roughly the same age, [00:09:00] both of us love playing soccer. Uh, we were working in the same job. I had come to that position from very, very different, uh, situations. Um, I began, we became really good friends, uh, began to get to know his community more. Um, and at that point it really just inspired me to, to see that there was a place that I had to, to be involved there. And so I also, um, found out about the international rescue committee, one of their offices we're in, we're in Oakland. Speaker 4:And so I began the process of volunteering with them, teaching English, uh, mentoring, uh, [00:09:30] new refugees coming to the country. And then eventually, um, after spending a stent, a roasting coffee for about a year, uh, spend, uh, I began working at international rescue committee and I was really just right, kind of put down my roots. Okay, great. We're talking to Doug Hewitt and Rachel Taber, they're the co founders of 1951 coffee. It's a coffee shop and nonprofit here in Berkeley, um, that is, uh, focused on providing, um, job training and, um, like comically resettling refugees here in the bay area. [00:10:00] Um, and so I think I might have know the answer to this, but I wanted to ask it anyway just by what you just said. Doug, why coffee? So I understand why you guys are trying to create jobs for refugees, but you had to, you could create any business in the world. Speaker 4:Why'd you create a coffee business? Yeah, so I think that, um, one, Rachel and I both love coffee. Even when we were working at our previous jobs, uh, we kinda did a, an informal survey of all the coffee that was around our office. And so we kind of had our [00:10:30] all thing on our whiteboard at work. Um, but I think, you know, as we began to look at the skills that we had, um, both of us had worked in coffee before, had been in Baristas. I had roasted coffee before. Um, we knew that that was something that we could teach and train people. And we also knew from previous experience that the coffee industry here in the bay area is, is huge. Um, everything from the green coffee warehouses that are, that are in Oakland. Um, and because of those warehouses are there, there's a lot of roasters that have a presence here in this area. Speaker 4:[00:11:00] And then, you know, having a massive number of cafes, um, Berkeley is known for having the largest number of cafes per capita of anywhere in the country. Um, and so in places like San Francisco and Oakland are very similar to that. Um, and so we knew that it was an opportunity, you know, if we could help refugees enter into the coffee industry here, especially, um, it could be an opportunity for them to intern, not just into, uh, an entry level job, but something that could be an entrance into a career as well. And just [00:11:30] beyond the fact that it's not only a career economically, it is truly the best position someone can get when they arrive in the u s and I think that as we talk with people more about the challenges that are so unique and inherent to the refugee population, it just, it's, it's eye opening to a lot of people because when you come to the u s you need to find a job. And we had talked about some of the challenges earlier, Speaker 3:but it's just compounded by the fact that a refugee has this economic crisis and they arrive that that resettlement money, [00:12:00] they get get spent so quickly because it's so expensive to live here. And no matter what a person's background, we someone could have been an agriculture their entire life with a couple of years of formal education and now they're here in the u s and another person could have two PhDs and you know, fabulous, you know, high level career and they will both need to get a job within the same amount of time. And that time is so short that there's absolutely zero ability for them to wait for long hiring processes [00:12:30] to go through long job skills training programs. And so vast majority above 90% 95 a hundred percent half, they will find an entry level position. That is all they have the time for and they have the needs so immediately and we felt that there was an opportunity to help someone get a better job and not just economically and economically Baristas make sense. Speaker 3:You know, minimum wage hovers around 1250 right now, you know, it's lb increasing soon in Berkeley and other areas. But a Barista gets hired at about 13 to $15 an hour [00:13:00] so that just hands down is higher. But additionally it's a tipped position and there is a income survey by a coffee publication a few years back and San Francisco and Oakland are the first and third respective highest Barista incomes across the country and tips at around $4 per hour. And so if you're looking, and I was a credit coach that my ended my time at the IRC. And when you're looking at someone that's working, probably one and a half jobs, two jobs, making 1250 an hour versus [00:13:30] $17 an hour is huge. And that's a big difference. In addition to just the economic factor, I think something that Degen I felt very passionate is we would meet incredible people like just spirit and this drive to do something and we would find them in jobs that aren't bad. Speaker 3:I mean not bad jobs at ones that wouldn't push them to integrate in their new community. And that's a lovely thing about the coffee culture in the bay area and in the u s is that becomes your third place. That's that [00:14:00] you have your Barista, you have your drink, you know those names. And so the ability to kind of reach across the bar and create those dignified relationships both with your coworkers behind and with the people that are visiting the cafe is just a level of social integration that is not available in jobs right now. I've always found that the best ideas are ones that seem really obvious after they've been created. One more than the way you talk about it. It means a ton of sense. One thing that doesn't make sense to me is if the resettlement program, [00:14:30] I'll use $1,000 and there's this economic clock ticking. Why would any refugees come to the bay area? I mean it's so expensive. Here's what, how does that work? How do they choose the geography of the country to go to? So there, there is some level of um, study so that a refugee has and where they end up very often during the resettlement they being asked Speaker 4:questions about, you know, do you have family members already located in specific countries? Um, and then there are also, you know, different countries who accept [00:15:00] refugees for resettlement. They have different criteria, um, and they will accept different types of refugees or have priorities toward different types of refugees. Um, and so that can kind of, you know, funnel down who, who goes where. Um, ultimately, you know, there's a, a process that the resettlement agencies go through and the, the u s government goes through, they, you know, they meet together and they talk about each case and they discuss, you know, which case would be a best fit for which location. Now, if a refugee happens to have family member or friends, um, living in a specific area, [00:15:30] you know, that'll be a place where they were more than likely to end up. So very often here in the bay area, that'll, that'll be, you know, a large number of the cases. Speaker 4:They have family members or friends who have already been here, resettled and maybe in earlier resettlement, um, you know, processes or, um, maybe they came, you know, a year, six months before. Um, and then sometimes it is just a process of this seems to be the location where they could be served the best. Um, and yes, it is an expensive process to resettle people here, but you know, all the agencies [00:16:00] are looking at trying to find the best fit for the specific case. They're getting their given details on the case. Um, and they're trying to find the best location to, to help someone get, get started and you know, the bay area for, for its difficulty economically. It does provide an opportunity for people who want to live in a very diverse place to be welcomed. And I think that's, that's one aspect of socialization here. Um, and the welcome for people from very diverse backgrounds, um, kind of balances out that economic hardship in some ways. [00:16:30] Yeah, that's a really interesting point because, Speaker 2:um, of with all the politicization of this issue these days, especially from, uh, he who will not be named as our president, um, I, I wonder what would happen to refugees in parts of the country that have been kind of whipped up in this fear or against refugees, but probably have never met one and have no personal connection to them. It's almost like they would, they would do better to actually interact with the refugee [00:17:00] or someone who's not like them. But that's a lot to ask of of someone who's trying to start a new life. I mean, is there in, in deep red states, are, is IRC or other programs, are they settling refugees there or is it only in places like, like you said, Doug were, there's a little bit more of a, um, a diverse and progressive bias. So Speaker 4:refugee resettlement is taking place in about 200 cities across the country. Uh, which means inevitably it is going to be in places that, you know, some places that are very [00:17:30] supportive, some places that are not so supportive of the process. Um, and you know, refugee resettlement agencies all across the country are, you know, have that key piece in mind. You know, how do we effectively resettle people here in a way that this, you know, this larger community around, they're becoming a part of that larger community and not, you know, creating these two different within one location. Um, and so you'll see that a lot of, a lot of resettlement agencies will, will do as much as they can to kind of pound the pavement and get local buy-in, um, [00:18:00] find, you know, organization groups of people, um, to, to welcome refugees and be a part of that. Speaker 4:Welcoming process. Cause there's a very big difference when, you know, as an agency or a government entity, you come in and be like, we're going to resettle refugees in this location versus going into that community, getting buy in from the community and say, Hey, will you be a part of the welcoming process? You know, it's the same thing going into someone's home. If you just barge in the front door, it's very different than if you, you know, that person invites you into their home. And so that's a role that the refugee [00:18:30] resettlement agencies often play is working with that larger community too, to find a way for them to be involved in that welcome process. Um, and at that point, you know, you then to have, have that more buy in. Um, and I think it kind of eases that process and does create that opening year that you were talking about for people to get to know people Speaker 2:well who are, who are different from them. Yeah. It's a, it's really amazing that the work you guys do in this whole process. I'm learning a lot about this morning, we're talking to Doug Hewitt and Rachel Taber. They are the cofounders of 1951 [00:19:00] coffee company, let's say, nonprofits started here in Berkeley to help integrate refugees into the bay area. Um, so, you know, we talked a lot about the kind of a global or you know, macro issues here, but let's talk about some of the stories. I'm sure you guys have some amazing stories of people who have worked in your shop. You guys started in 2015. Is that right? Speaker 3:Well, the, we quit our jobs to find or launch 1951 in 2015 but at the cafe only opened about four months ago. And [00:19:30] serendipitously we opened three days before the first failed travel again. Uh, so the cafe arm of what we're doing is new. Prior to that, um, you know, 2015 was a lot of business planning and incorporating and curriculum development. In 2016 we started a Barista training program, which Doug teaches and facilitates. And the thought behind it was, you know, when we first we first put our stake in the ground and you know, started meeting in our, you know, small little broken folding chairs, startup office, [00:20:00] um, with the coffee shop and, and it would be not only a place to help the greater community and the refugee community intersect and allow it to be an advocacy moment and provide job opportunities. And as we started getting deeper into it, we're like, great. Speaker 3:Even if it's just the most slamming busy cafe in Berkeley, maybe out of Maxville employ 13, 15 people and each one of those souls and people are important and wonderful, but that is a smaller impact than the number of people arriving and that we were hoping to effect. [00:20:30] And so while we were waiting for the notoriously long Berkley permit process to go, uh, we started at a job turning program and there is a church in Oakland called regeneration, uh, right by lake merit. And they have a coffee shop. It's beautiful and large and they only use it on Sundays. And so they rent it to us for Monday through Friday. And we hold a two week course that provides around 40 hours of job skill training, vocational, English, customer service, US workforce, cultural orientation [00:21:00] and job placement assistance. And so we've had around 50 people graduate from that class in the last year and a half. And we have amazing employment partners including blue bottle, Starbucks, Dropbox, and some other local cafes around the bay area. Speaker 4:So I would assume that most of the people with the refugees going through your program and they're not of the double phd style. Um, is that, is that a good assumption or if you're training them to go into, sorry, be Baristas. Um, are they more of the people who didn't have [00:21:30] a profession from where they're coming from? So we've actually, we've trained, um, quite a few people. Um, we've trained people who, you know, they were, you know, had never really held a job at all before. Um, and we've trained people. We had a medical doctor go through our training. We had, um, an actor, a, I go through our training, we've had engineers go through our training. Um, so we've had the whole, the whole gamut of the varieties of different people going through our training because again, everyone who is arriving in the country, they need [00:22:00] to get a job and they need to get as soon as possible. Speaker 4:And what we are providing through that training is we can be a reference for them. We can be a local us reference that will help them get that initial job. We had a, uh, a guy that worked with us for a while at our cafe before he moved. Um, and he had gone through 15 different job interviews. He was the head of HR for a global hotel in his home country. Um, but he went through 15 different interviews here and needed to get a job very quickly. And very often the response was, it's gonna take some [00:22:30] time to go through this process or you're overqualified, sorry, this isn't going to work out. And so for him to be able to go through our training to get a job, to be able to get started for him was, was huge. Um, and so, you know, that's the situation that, you know, a lot of people are in, you know, they need something just to get moving, just to get started. And the, all the other career pieces, the longterm things will figure themselves out once they get that stabilized. And Are you guys, uh, do you have a plan to track what happens? I mean, are [00:23:00] they, are they part of like a alumni club or, Speaker 3:yeah, we know. And I think the wonderful part about the program is it's, it's two weeks and it's intense and you're there every day and you're highly caffeinated and we provide snacks and we have a, it's really fun. There's a ton of comradery. And so, you know, Justin natural black, we have a fun Facebook group and people come back to the cafe that's now open and grab a coffee and we stay in touch with most people. And you know, to start, we had to be pretty scrappy, um, because starting a nonprofit and a coffee [00:23:30] shop is hyper expensive. And I had done fundraising for a lot of my life. Um, and so that came in to help. But a lot of our foundations do want to see longitudinal outcomes. And we just are coming up at about a year and a half that the program has been running. And we are starting to see some of that. And I think one of the amazing parts of people that are coming in new to this country is, is they want stuff, they want someone to invest in them and they want to invest somewhere. And even if it is for, you know, that year or two or a couple, [00:24:00] um, they'll pop, people stick at those jobs and they love them. And like, we just had one of our early job placements with blue bottle celebrate his first year. And you know, and that's, that's just really exciting. Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a, it sounds like there's going to be lots of opportunity for you guys to have celebrate success stories and, um, and provide even maybe more services. And, um, is the idea that the curriculum that you developed could be something that would be shared across other parts of the country? [00:24:30] And is this something, is that the designs that you guys have? Yes. So we've, we've put a lot of thought into, you know, how we want to grow, you know, 1951 and we realize, you know, from having been in a network, you know, with or with refugee resettlement agencies and knowing that there are 200 cities across the country where refugees are being resettled. And knowing that coffee is something that permeates the u s life and culture. I mean, that's one of the first things we do when we wake up in the morning as find our cup of coffee. Speaker 4:And so we know that there is an opportunity for this training [00:25:00] to, to be taken and expanded into other locations. And so that's something that we're, we're actively looking for those, those partners and other locations that we can, you know, go in and help something get started. Um, that is our, that is our goal right now and we're looking, you know, actively for that. Um, and so yeah, we're, we're definitely open to that and actively pursuing it. Alright, cool. Well, I wanted to ask you guys about world refugee day that's coming up on June 20th I believe. So just in a couple of weeks. Uh, so tell us about what, what that is and what 1951 [00:25:30] doing, uh, in regards to that. Right. So, um, World Refugee Day is on, uh, June 20th. And you know, we have a variety of, uh, events that we have going on. I actually, throughout the summer, uh, one of the things we have going on right now is, uh, a travel with us campaign is actually our, um, one of our senior Baristas came up with the campaign in order to, to highlight the six different countries, uh, that we have people, um, from that work in our, our cafe. Speaker 4:And so each week, throughout the summer, they're taking a different week and they're highlighting either food [00:26:00] beverages, uh, cultural items from, from their countries. So right now, um, we have, uh, Butan as the country this week. Next week will be Burma. And then so on going through our, uh, we have our, our Instagram accounts in our Facebook accounts, we kind of have a calendar of, of all those things going on during world refugee week. Um, we're going to be involved in a few different things. We have some, some groups coming in, uh, to kind of hold some informational things so that they can learn more about refugees and having our, uh, Baristas, uh, she kind of share some of their information and stories. [00:26:30] Uh, and then we also have, um, some programs that are going gonna do kind of throughout that day, um, leading up to the evening. And so, um, yeah, you should definitely come by and check it out. Speaker 3:Yup. It's hard this year at World Refugee Day falls during Ramadan and a lot of refugees that come are Muslim. And so it is a more interesting year to have it because there's not as many, you know, activities for everyone to participate in during the day. So. Okay. Well, um, that sounds like there's lots of ways for [00:27:00] people to get involved and it sounds like, uh, the best way to get to follow you guys as social media on Instagram or Facebook. And I think, you know, we have so many people that reach out to us and say, what can we do? We want to help the situation and what and weave that. I mean once you talk to someone and explain to them who a refugee is, what they've been through and why they are here, I have yet to ever meet someone. Doesn't matter where I am in the country or where they're from that isn't like I support that and I want to help and we wanted to do is make it easier for someone to [00:27:30] feel like they could have an impact on someone's life. Speaker 3:And so by just coming in and doing your regular, no selfish but you know your regular caffeine purchase and you're actually putting money right into the pocket of refugees that are new here and a need, that sort of economic boost. And something that's been really fun for us to see now that we're running into our fifth six month of operation is our payroll is $20,000 a month and that's $20,000 of wages and health benefits and other supports that our staff get. [00:28:00] And as a nonprofit when you come in, you're buying your cup, your milk, your beans, and then you are giving money to people who want a dignified job, want respect and, and love it and want to be there. And so it's just our call to action is like, please just come grab a coffee, make us your regular caffeine fix when you're driving around and are thinking of, or where can I have that meeting? Speaker 3:It's, it's a, it's easy to do. We all buy coffee and there's parking right below the cafe, which is hard to find sometimes in the day area. The cafe [00:28:30] is at 24, 10 chatting way. Uh, so we're right across from unit three housing, uh, right next to Beverly Cleary. Um, yeah. So just a few blocks from here. Yeah. Yep. We're just about half block down from telegraph. Great. And I always close the interview with this. We've been talking to Doug Hewitt and Rachel taper. They're the cofounders of 1951 coffee company right here in Berkeley. A nonprofit that helps refugees, gets their lives started here in America. Um, I always end with this question. You guys have started this thing from scratch [00:29:00] and you're in the heat of the battle right now, getting it launched. That's always fun. Congratulations. By the way, it's not easy to get to where you've gone. Speaker 3:Um, but let's just fast forward five years from now and everything breaks perfectly for you guys. Where would 1951 coffee company B then? I think that we would, you know, as we, as we grow, um, I think that we would, we would really like to see our training program, you know, open in other cities to be able to have an access [00:29:30] and have a flow of, of refugees being trained and placed in the coffee industry and those locations. We've kind of looked at some different cities, Seattle, San Diego, uh, Dallas, Washington, D C But we're also open to Speaker 4:a lot of other places that the opportunities could, could arise. Um, I think in addition to that, being able to, you know, open, you know, one cafe in some of those, those cities as well. Um, it would be something that we would like to do in order to have a, a physical presence there as a representation to the larger business [00:30:00] community of what it can look like for refugees to be, to be working in your space. You know, we run the cafe here. Everyone who works there is a refugee and they're doing a great job. And I think that's important for the business community to see when they're looking to hire one or two or three refugees to, to be a part of their, their work. And so I think that's something we would like to do. And then just having that physical presence as, as an advocacy point. Speaker 4:Um, because you know, when someone says, you know, I want to support refugees, what do I do? They can immediately just walk into the, you know, the office of, you know, one of the resettlement agencies and be like, I'm [00:30:30] here. What do I do? Um, but with a cafe they can walk in, they can immediately purchase that cup of coffee and begin to have an impact right away, get to know the Baristas, learn about the community. And so we would like to continue to have that same impact in other places as well. Doug and I made a deal that if this goes on 10 years, we're going to get a tattoo of our 1951 logo. So that's what I look forward to seeing were tugs. Can you get us down to very practical? Well, that was Doug Hewett [00:31:00] and Rachel tape, one of the cofounders of 1951 coffee company right here in Berkeley. A two, four, four one chanting, is that right? 24, 10 24 10 chanting. And how do they find you on Instagram? Just 1951 1951 coffee, uh, on Instagram. On Facebook. Uh, and on Twitter. Alright, everybody go get your coffee from 1951 coffee. And you've been listening to method to the madness here in Kale, x, Berkeley, 90.7 FM. Have a great Friday. Everybody. 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Everyone should be able to invest in something meaningful, according to Oakland-based securities lawyer Brian Beckon. Host Lisa Kiefer speaks with Beckon, Vice-President of Cutting Edge Capital, about his life's mission to build a more democratic and just economy by creating community capital opportunities.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Keifer, and today I'm interviewing Brian Beckon and Oakland securities lawyer who's on a mission to democratize capital. Welcome to the program. Brian, I heard you speak recently and you seem to be on a mission to democratize capital. What is the problem that you're trying to solve? Speaker 2:The big picture problem that I want [00:00:30] to solve is that all the wealth goes to the wealthy. And so when we talk about democratizing capital, it really is about leveling the playing field and allowing everybody to participate in the economy on the same terms as the wealthy. You shouldn't have a system where the wealthy get the really good investment opportunities and the non wealthy get what's left over. It's not even what's left over. They get virtually no investment opportunities at all under the [00:01:00] conventional system that we have. And I will say it doesn't have to be that way, but that's the way it has evolved in the past few Speaker 1:is the problem you're trying to solve. So you came out of a kind of a traditional securities lawyer, corporate background. What drew you into this new world? Speaker 2:Yes. When I finished law school, I went to a law firm, kind of the obligatory path that every law graduate, at least in those days did. And I worked there for about four or five years. And while the experience was great, I [00:01:30] didn't feel like that was really my destiny and I wasn't sure I could articulate why, but I left and went in house. So I became in house attorney at a couple of big companies. I started out in a real estate company, could tell US Development Corporation based in San Francisco. And then I went to Sybase, you know, the big software company thinking that maybe I would find my destiny in the tech world because I thought that was interesting. And I found that while I enjoyed the work, it still wasn't satisfying [00:02:00] because at the end of the day, what was I doing? But helping rich people get richer and it didn't feel as though that was why I became an attorney. And I don't mean to delve too deeply into the past, but I originally went to law school because I wanted to figure out how to make the world a better place and I didn't feel like I was doing that. So I was frustrated and that's when I decided to just leave that world and go into the nonprofit. Speaker 1:Was that kind of scary to go from, [00:02:30] you obviously probably took a dip in salary, right? Speaker 2:It took about a 60% cut in pay when I left Cybase that was making pretty decent money there and that, yes, it was very difficult and a hard on my family and you know, hard in a number of ways. But I joined RSF social finance, which is a nonprofit finance organization and I absolutely loved it. I was doing exactly what I had set out to do. Speaker 1:And what is it that they were doing that fulfills your mission? Speaker 2:Yeah, so, so they actually did a number of things. They a whole philanthropic [00:03:00] side. So they, they manage philanthropic money mostly in donor advised funds and they do some fiscal sponsorships and so on. And while that was very interesting and I love the general idea of moving money to work and do the most good in the world, what really captured my imagination there or what really inspired me was their community investment fund. So they had an investment fund that everybody could invest in. And you say everybody, you mean? And by everybody, I mean regardless of economic [00:03:30] class, everybody of any level of wealth can invest in their community investment fund. Now, not necessarily in every state. There was a whole security and compliance project that I launched there and managed it until I left several years later. But the idea that everybody can participate on the same terms, there's no special deal for the rich. Speaker 2:Everybody's as like on a level playing field. That inspired me. I was there for about six years and I absolutely loved it, but eventually I wanted [00:04:00] to expand beyond just debt-based charitable loan fund, which is what that was. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's a wonderful model. I felt that there are things that can be done in that world of democratizing capital that go beyond charitable funds. And so I went to a couple of different finance organizations with the view toward developing crowd funding. Now this was, this was when the term crowd funding was new. Right around 2009 ish. I had [00:04:30] just heard the term crowdfunding, although it turns out that crowd funding is not really new, but the term was new. And so I joined a couple of different companies. I was with one for a couple of years and around 2014 we were getting ready to launch a sort of a peer to peer lending platform for real estate. Speaker 2:And that's when I discovered the folks that cutting edge capital and, and I realized that's really where I belonged. That's where I am now. So I'm an attorney by training as as [00:05:00] most of my colleagues are. So primarily we focus on securities law, compliance. Now that's the big hurdle when it comes to community capital. The reason it's not more ubiquitous is because by and large, most people, including most lawyers, even most securities lawyers think it can't be done. They've never really dug into the securities laws to figure out how to do it. There's just this sort of knee jerk reaction that well that's not what I learned in law school. So it [00:05:30] must not be possible. Did you decide to go on a on this innovative path because you discovered it in your research? Well, I'm not going to take credit for discovering it, but I had done the research, you know, during my days, both at RSF and, and while I was developing this crowdfunding concepts, I had done some research and how to do interesting public offerings and how to take advantage of other exemptions in the law. And so when I met my current colleagues, they were doing that kind of work too. So it was a perfect fit. Together [00:06:00] I think we've been able to, to build a stronger legal and theoretical foundation for our work. Speaker 1:Look, you just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness or weekly public affairs show on k a l eggs burglary, celebrating bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Oakland securities lawyer, Brian Beckon. You've been doing this for how long? About 12 years. So in that totality of years, what are some of your major challenges? Speaker 2:The biggest challenge [00:06:30] again is this, this perceived idea that it can't be done, that it's illegal, that you, you simply can't do these, you can't offer an investment to nonaccredited investors. That's crazy. That's, that's sort of the reaction that you get even from professionals that you run into from, from CPAs and, and other attorneys. So what I'm getting at is the biggest challenge I think is really cultural. It's a cultural, it's an educational challenge to, to convey to people that there is much more that [00:07:00] can be done than people even professionals often realize you've got to dig into it and discover what's possible. Speaker 1:Well, one of the things you said recently was an intrigued me. You said, you know, people invest, you know, stock brokers invest your money and you invest in the Google's or whatever, but you're not really investing in that company. Speaker 2:That's right. So, so let's talk about the options that are available in the conventional system to non accredited investors. If you're non-accredited, [00:07:30] you pretty much don't have any kind of private offering that you can invest in. So what do you do? You invest your money in a bank CD or you can open up a brokerage account, whether it's an you know, a brick and mortar brokerage or an online account like e trade and you can invest in the stock market. That is the publicly traded stock market. Now does a couple of things to say about that. First, let me, let me talk about where your money goes. If you are an investor who wants to see your money [00:08:00] deployed in a way that's aligned with your values, let's say you want to see your money actually make an impact, do something good in the world. Speaker 2:Let's say you pick a company and you buy stock in that company via your e trade account. Let's say now what actually happens? What does the mechanics of that transaction you are buying in what's called the secondary market, which means you're actually buying their stock from other shareholders. You are not buying shares from the company whose stock you're buying [00:08:30] is. What does that mean? Who gets the money? Who gets the money that you're trying to put into something meaningful? Other shareholders get it. In fact, not one penny of it goes to the company whose stock you're buying. You're only buying from other shareholders and who always makes a profit no matter whether you win or lose on the deal. The brokerage firm, it's the, it's the, you know, the financial institutions, the Wall Street firms, they always, no matter what, but at the end of the day, have you done anything good with your money? Speaker 2:No [00:09:00] you haven't. You might feel good because you're not investing in say nuclear power. You're not investing in whatever it may be that you don't like weapons, tobacco or whatever. But the point is you're not actually doing anything good with your money when you're investing in the secondary market. Now that's true. Whether you buy publicly traded shares directly in a brokerage account or whether you go through a socially screened mutual fund, which is what most small investors do with their money, and I don't mean to be critical of mutual funds. I have my money invested in mutual [00:09:30] funds. But again, not one penny of your money invested in mutual funds goes to the companies whose stock your indirectly bide all goes to other shareholders and the Wall Street firms take a cut. But the other thing I will say about these options for non-accredited investors, and maybe you should, let's define that an accredited investor is one that has $1 million in assets excluding their primary residence. Speaker 2:In other words, $1 million in investible assets or [00:10:00] 200,000 in annual income for the past two years and you expect to have the same this year or that number is 300,000 if you're including your spouse. Now, estimates vary, but somewhere between three and eight or 10% of Americans or American families qualify as accredited investors. So when an offering is limited to accredited investors only, you are necessarily excluding a vast number of potential investors. It might [00:10:30] be argued that, well, those non-accredited investors don't have much money to invest anyway. And the other criticism is they may not have the knowledge that accredited as well. We'll get to that. But me talking about who has the money, it is largely true that accredited investors that is those with a million or more have most of the assets but there is a broad category of what they call the mass affluent. These are folks who have between a quarter of a million and a million dollars in assets, so they are what you might consider affluent [00:11:00] and they have money to invest but do they have options and no they don't. Speaker 2:They're not allowed to invest in anything and if I say my not allowed to invest in anything, I mean again excluding these vehicles of community capital that we're, we're advocating for in the conventional system where you either where you raise capital via private placements until you get big enough to do an IPO in the conventional system, those those folks have virtually no ways to invest. Now let's talk about why is that the theory behind [00:11:30] that sort of what some have called economic apartheid. There is definitely a segregation between between the options available to the wealthy that is the accredited investors and those available to the non wealthy. It's based on this idea that if you are not wealthy, you are presumed to be unsophisticated and unable to protect your own interests. So it's really kind of a proxy for how knowledgeable are you, how experienced are you in [00:12:00] matters of investing? Speaker 2:Now, the irony of that is it's a very imprecise proxy. For example, a successful entertainer, Brittany spheres is no doubt an accredited investor, but does she have any sophistication to evaluate an investment? Probably not. On the other hand, an economics professor or sometimes even a securities lawyer may have all the sophistication you could possibly look for but not is not actually an accredited [00:12:30] investor and is not allowed to invest in. Do you have any idea what the pool of unaccredited investment money might be that is currently not being invested? If you consider that the total amount of money invested in the United States is somewhere around $30 trillion. That mass affluent category controls about a quarter of that, so we're talking about maybe seven to $8 trillion of investible [00:13:00] assets by non-accredited investors in America based on some statistics I've seen. That's pretty amazing. It's a lot of money. Speaker 2:What are some of the solutions you've come up with that maybe we don't know about? Well, here's where it gets interesting. As I said before, in the conventional system, a small business, first of all, you know, they will try to tap out their friends and family to raise money from their friends and family. But once they're ready to go beyond their inner circle, they do a private offering looking for angel investors, venture capital [00:13:30] firms, big institutional investors. Those are types of private placement offerings that are available only to accredited investors. And then once they get big enough, then they can do an IPO. So you often hear about these companies doing a series a round a series B, round a, series c, the SMS go up to d or whatever. It just refers to how many times they'd go out and try to raise capital again for, to, to fund their expansion or increase, you know, improved operations or whatever it is. Speaker 2:And then when they get big enough they do an IPO. [00:14:00] But what all those strategies completely overlook is all the folks who would love to see them succeed and would like to invest if they only had an opportunity. So a company that follows that traditional trajectory is really missing out on their ideal investors. If you find someone who knows how to how to do that, how to jump through the compliance hoops for that. It's not all that difficult to actually do an offering as a smaller business, and [00:14:30] I'm not talking about an IPO by an IPO, I mean a full blown SCC registration doing a nationwide offering. It's, it's what a company does when they go public. What Facebook did a few years ago and raised several billion dollars and IPO is a very expensive process and companies that go public spend a quarter million dollars and up to two times millions of dollars on compliance costs to do an IPO. Speaker 2:That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how does a small community scale [00:15:00] business raise capital and it can be a manufacturing company, it can be a restaurant or brewery, it can be whatever. And something that is of a more community scale. What they can do is actually do a local small scale public offering. It's a true public offering, but you're not talking about doing an sec registration at the federal level. You're talking about registering at the state level in a way that is very cost effective. It's not that [00:15:30] expensive to do. This is again what most securities lawyers even don't know how to do because they don't teach this in law school now I took securities law courses in law school and all this got was just the barest mention. Oh yes there is, here's a long list of exemptions that are possible but here are the two that are important and they channel you're the, you know the, the student's attention to the very conventional systems, the, you know, the private placements and then the IPO. You have lawyers coming out of law school who have never heard of these structures [00:16:00] of community capital and they go to the big law firms who have never done it. And if a client goes to one of these big law firms, there'll be told, no, you can't do that because those folks can't think outside the box. Speaker 1:Okay, so you have found this innovative idea. Yes. Speaker 2:And you brought it to fruition. Yes. Our firm has done quite a few of those. Now again, I don't want to take credit for inventing it. It was done decades before we do it. Yeah. In fact, this is the way capital was raised for a hundred years, [00:16:30] but somewhere along the way, and I'm not quite sure when that happened. Perhaps the start got started in the, in the sixties and seventies but economic power, financial power became more consolidated. You used to be that people invest in who they know and there's a, there's a thing that happens when you meet someone face to face and you look them in the eye. There's some trust that happens or if there isn't, you don't invest, but when you have a relationship with someone, they're much less likely to try to [00:17:00] screw you over. The thing is there's our current system, the Wall Street dominated system of centralized power and centralized wealth. It puts a premium on anonymity. Anonymity breeds fraud because you can get away with it. Nobody knows who you are. Anyway, I'm curious Speaker 1:why I can't invest in a fund, let's say a Berklee Fund that is full of all these businesses that I love and that I buy things from and I want them to stay in business and I know they [00:17:30] probably need capital now and then, but a fund that I can invest in every year that supports Berkley, will it ever be available? Speaker 2:The short answer is no and yes, if I can do something about that. So, so here's the issue. Now, when you're raising capital via via raising money, that's a securities offering, you're raising investment and then turn it around and investing in other companies, you now need to contend with the investment company [00:18:00] act of 1940 that's a federal law that put it simply. It regulates mutual funds. And so anybody who is invested in a mutual fund has seen that fic prospectus. You get, it's about 50 to a hundred pages and lots of fine print, excruciating levels of detail about the fund and how it's managed. Nobody ever reads them. They just sit there and you sometimes turn to the very back to see what it's actually invested in, but that's about it. The reason they do that is because they are complying with the 1940 act, the 1940 investment company act, which is, it's a very [00:18:30] burdensome set of requirements for an investment fund that does what I just described, raising capital via securities offering and then investing in the securities of others. Speaker 2:Now what you're describing this hypothetical Berkeley Fund is that, but the compliance costs are way, way too expensive for a locally focused fun of say just a few million. You can't do this for a fund unless it's of a size of at least 10 20 50 million. Most of these funds [00:19:00] have, you know, mutual funds have hundreds of millions, even in the billions of dollars. The compliance costs are too high for a community investment fund under the 1940 so there's an opportunity here to find an exemption strategy. The 1940 act like most laws have a variety of exemptions and one of the things that we've been doing lately is identifying those exemption strategies that can work for exactly what you're talking about. You should be able to invest [00:19:30] in F in a Berkeley Entrepreneurial Fund that helps to launch small businesses here in Berkeley. Why not? In fact, there should be one of those in every community across the country. Speaker 2:The reason that they aren't more ubiquitous is because nobody's figured out how to navigate through the 1940 act at that level. So here are some ways to do it. First of all, is your mission too. This is my mission now. Thank you for asking because this is, this is actually where we're spending a lot of time because it's one thing to do a direct public offering, raise community capital for a single [00:20:00] company. That actually, as I said before, that's been done many times since the 80s that's what my firm does every day. You need to get someone who knows what they're doing, but I will say it's not so daunting that as to discourage anyone from doing it. That's a well trodden path. Now when you get into the funds, now we're getting into some innovative stuff because people have generally not figured out how to do these things. Speaker 2:So let me just mention a couple of exemption strategies under the 1940 act and then we're, we're working on finding some other ones. [00:20:30] I've talked to a staffer from a well-placed senator who, you know, we're hoping we'll maybe introduce a new law that will create a new strategy that's available, but, but let me talk about the most commonly used strategy by far and that is the charitable loan fund. So one exemption under the 1940 act is 583 charities and that is the most commonly used because that makes it easy. You don't have to jump through any hoops. You just have to be and act as a true charitable organization. There are many charitable [00:21:00] loan funds, like for example, RSF ATFC. That is actually a really good example. They are a charitable loan fund that operates in Lake and Mendocino counties up in northern California and they are doing exactly that. Speaker 2:They're raising capital via a direct public offering of debt securities to their community. And then they aggregate that money and invest via loans to projects. And so they've, they've done some really great stuff up there. There are 583 charity. Yeah. And so that is a great [00:21:30] strategy. There are many charitable loan funds. So again, that's the most commonly used exemption strategy on the 1940 act that allows for community capital. I won't get into a discussion about other strategies that are used by the venture capital firms and the private equity firms that allow say up to 250 investors, but they all have to be accredited. I'm not interested in those that are only open to accredited investors. I'm talking about strategies that are available to funds that want to raise capital via a direct public offering that anybody can invest [00:22:00] in. Again, it's about getting out capital. Speaker 2:So another strategy that you can use as real estate. A real estate fund has its own exemption from the 1940 act and so you can set up a fund that anybody in your community can invest in, turn around and invest that in perhaps blighted urban properties or rural properties, but revitalize them, improve them, lease them out, charitable as well. It's not charitable and that's the thing. This is now a for-profit fund I'm talking about [00:22:30] that can raise capital from investors who are going to be owners of the fund. They'll invest in stock. If it's a corporation, they'll invest in membership. If it's an LLC, these investors are getting equity. They're getting a piece of the action. When that fund does well, when it generates profits, those profits can be shared with investors. Now, that's an important distinction from the charitable loan fund because in a charitable loan fund, they are actually forbidden from sharing profits with their investors. Speaker 2:They will simply [00:23:00] pay interest. Investors can only invest in debt when you're talking about a charitable loan fund, but these for profit structures, this is where it can get interesting now because you have that upside potential and this is where you can perhaps leverage the whole capitalist system to bring in more money by offering the prospect of real profit that can, you know, stay ahead of inflation. So a real estate fund is a great strategy and then there are some other strategies and here's where it gets a little bit more challenging [00:23:30] but also potentially more interesting. You can actually have a fund that invests in companies and and takes in investment from equity investors. But now the trick is is that since there is no exemptions specifically for that kind of model, we find another exemption strategy where such a fund is supplemental to another principle line of business. Speaker 2:I'll give you, yes. Okay, [00:24:00] let me, let me back up. The exemption that I'm talking about says that you're not covered by the 1940 act. As long as the investing insecurities that he's invested at work you're doing in other companies is not your primary business, but you have some other primary business. Now, how would that actually work in real life? Well, let's say you're operating a coworking space or an incubator or an a business accelerator or some other other service provider [00:24:30] type of operation, and in the course of doing that work, you think it'd be great to also be able to invest in my clients. Well, this allows you to do that. Again, not as your primary business, but as a supplemental business. For example, you've got a coworking space, and by the way, I'm working with a project in Concord, California. It's going to do exactly this, so I'm actually describing a real project here. Speaker 2:They're going to build a coworking space in Concord. And in addition to providing access to various [00:25:00] services and providing some educational services, they're going to actually invest in local businesses. And the community will offer, will be offered an opportunity to invest in this collective company that includes both the coworking operation and this other investment portfolio. And when that portfolio throws off profits, those profits will be shared with investors. Wow. Yeah. We're in the early stages of it. The design has all been mapped out and, and right now [00:25:30] we're raising some capital to, so it's been approved and everything, but it has not been approved by the regulated, we haven't submitted it yet. Uh, but, but we've developed a plan and right now we're, we're raising some, some initial seed capital to pay for some of the expenses of launching the pilot coworking space and then taking care of some of the regulatory expenses for the direct public offering. Speaker 2:So that would be something like I described, being able to invest in your own, in most cases, [00:26:00] these types of funds will be focused on a local community that will be sort of the purpose or the mission behind it. But you could also create one that has a broader mission that says, we'll invest in biodynamic agriculture, or we'll invest in education, or we'll invest in, you know, it can be more conceptually based. I think in most cases, these will have a geographic focus, some metropolitan area, I'm working on one for example now that that's gonna serve the Philadelphia area. [00:26:30] It'll be partly real estate, but partly a kind of business incubator as well. So it'll be the problem of the massive amounts of capital you need for a fund by diversifying you kind of even out the cash flow needs. And it also helps to attract investors who might be interested in something that's locally based, but is in itself kind of diversified. Speaker 2:Well, what's the future going to bring the end game is that [00:27:00] when we can change the culture so that a typical non-accredited investor who has say five or $10,000 in their account ready to invest, the first thing they think about is investing locally before it ever crosses their mind to invest in a Wall Street traded firm. So, so there's a cultural shift. We want to get to educational shifts. It's an educational shift. We have to con, we have to, we have to share with the world that this is possible. [00:27:30] And when that happens, wealth will begin to circulate more in the community. Again, I'm talking about the end game. What does it, what's the, the final vision. We want to have wealth circulate within communities. In other words, community investors invest in community businesses. Those community businesses are able to grow, hire more local workers, more local employees, and generate more business from the community, generate profits, [00:28:00] and then repatriate those profits into the community. Speaker 2:So you get this cycle of wealth building and that will help build wealth organically in any community. And that works just as well as low end, healthier communities, healthier, more resilient, more self-reliant. They won't require or rely as much on infusions of capital from outside. This can really transform communities, particularly some of the more [00:28:30] marginalized communities and empower them. Ultimately, at the end of the day, we want communities to hold and wield and actually exercise the financial power that is inherently there is everybody has financial power, but many people feel marginalized. They don't, they don't exercise that power. So we want to empower people. Speaker 1:You have a very interesting background. You grew up the son of missionaries. Speaker 2:True. My great grandfather was a missionary to China. My [00:29:00] grandfather was born and raised there and my father was born and raised in China. My parents went to Taiwan after the communist revolution. So that's why I was born and raised in Taiwan. Speaker 1:And you spent many years there. So why do you think that growing up in this way informed this idea of the necessity of a healthy community? Speaker 2:You know, it's funny that you asked that because in a way I'm kind of an evangelist for community capital. So in that sense I'm following in my ancestor's footsteps, although it's not religiously motivated. Yeah, [00:29:30] but I do think it's good too to see how other people live and what they struggle with and what are the barriers to success and yes, I think that did help a sense that community is really what we should be supporting. If somebody wants to get ahold of you, what's the best way for them to reach? You? Probably would go onto my firm's website, so it's www.cuttingedgecapital.com and there'll be ways to connect with us and you individually for me and [00:30:00] me individually in any speaking, anywhere in the well my partners and I try to go out and speak to whoever is interested in hearing about community capital. I will be given a talk to the Richmond Chamber of Commerce, I believe on June nine Speaker 1:well Brian, I really want to thank you for being on the program. My pleasure. Thank you for come and join in and you've been listening to method to the madness on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts [00:30:30] on iTunes university. We'll be back next Friday at noon. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Lisa Kiefer interviews Oakland based filmmaker Alix Blair about the challenges of making her first feature documentary FARMER VETERAN premiering on local PBS station KQED May 29 through Independent Lens. The film focuses on veteran Alex Sutton, home from three combat tours in Iraq, suffering from PTSD, and forging a new identity as a farmer.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm speaking with Oakland based documentary filmmaker Alex Blair Speaker 2:[inaudible]. Speaker 1:[00:00:30] Welcome to the program Alex, and actually this film Speaker 3:armor veteran. Can you just give us a brief synopsis of what's this about? Yes, so it is about a one man who comes back from three tours in Iraq and starts a farm in rural North Carolina with his girlfriend Jessica. And then things are not what they seem to be as the film goes on. What drew you to examining a veteran? Let's talk about your [00:01:00] subject. Yes, Alex. Yes. I actually did a farm program at UC Santa Cruz and I met a veteran who had fought in Iraq down there and he had some amazing things to say about the connection between being a soldier and being a farmer. And so when I was in North Carolina and I met this man, that becomes the main character of our film. My mind was primed to be curious about how can your experience in war translate once you become a civilian again and what are, what are ways we can support [00:01:30] our veterans as they transition back into civilian life and my dad went to Vietnam and never, never, never talked about his experience and I think there was a seed in me that was curious. Speaker 3:Did you grow up in North Carolina? No, I grew up in Chicago. Okay. I grew up in Chicago but I moved to North Carolina for a job in documentary work and then being part of the farm community and I worked for a farming nonprofit and that's how I met our main character was through that work and I thought this is so interesting why he's so perfect. Three tours, three tours in Iraq, [00:02:00] Afghanistan is less clear. That is part of the story that kind of unravels in this film is as we are trying to understand his PTSD and what happened to him in Iraq and what it is to come back from combat, we start learning a lot about how the stories we tell ourselves is a part of coping with trauma. It sounds like it's mostly about the mental health issues. Yes. That this 1.2 million veterans in the United States come home and suffer from. Speaker 3:Right? Absolutely. [00:02:30] And that wasn't our intention. We thought we were making a short film about how great farming is for veterans and the more we gain trust and build relationship with the veteran and his wife, the more we kind of dove deep into the worlds of mental health, especially of these most recent wars. Half of all farmers will retire in the next decade and the biggest number of returning veterans are from agricultural areas where most people are unemployed. So it's this perfect juxtaposition of solving [00:03:00] two of our greatest challenges in the United States. And I still believe in that greatly. What I learned is that you cannot take someone who has no background in farming, give them some land, give them some money and expect that they're going to be okay. Like we have to have community support not only for our veterans but for our farmers. I mean farming is one of the hardest jobs that exist. Speaker 3:That's why the USDA, its beginning farmer qualification is 10 years or less. Like you work 10 years at any other job, [00:03:30] you are going to be an expert but you're still a beginner and farming and like all the things you can't control whether you know the seeds, the insects, the, especially if you're doing it organically, like there's so much that you are up against and if you are not being supported either with mentorship or with community support or with classes, it's another kind of battle. I wanted you to talk about Alex A. Little bit. He got injured and what was the outcome of that? He did get injured, um, in [00:04:00] his first tour in Iraq. And I think it's important to say he was diagnosed with PTSD after his first tour and sent back two more times after being diagnosed as [inaudible] we've learned from making the film. Speaker 3:It is really common and I think it's part of having a volunteer military is that if you are short on people you send people back, that may be shouldn't be going back if they have very severe trauma experience. So I mean we dove into that world with Alex of understanding more deeply [00:04:30] like what is the toll our modern experience with war takes on these young men and women and mostly coming from rural areas mostly, you know, enticed to be able to go to college or serve their country or getting out of the women or have employment. Like if we could support our farmers so that it was like they were level of Rockstar, you know, that's what I always say like we exist because they're growing food. Like nothing is more direct connection than that. And yet the stakes are stacked against farmers in so many ways. Speaker 3:Yes. [00:05:00] This guy that you interviewed, this veteran, he had both of his legs blown off and he has titanium legs. Is that correct? You will need to see the movie to find out if that is true or not. Okay. The reason I'm being cagey is I think the film explores a lot of in experience of trauma and especially in experience of PTSD. The stories that we tell ourselves about what happened to us, whether we're a soldier or a rape victim or someone else in some kind of trauma stories are how we [00:05:30] survive and get through. But then there's a certain point where stories we tell ourselves may be causing harm. Also, if you think of a man like our main character who his whole life has wanted to go to serve and being a soldier is the ultimate thing you can be. And being the perfect soldier, like just think of our mainstream media, like we glorify war and snipers and everything from you know, World War II movies to now. Speaker 3:And so if you are removed from that world, you need to understand [00:06:00] like you need a new story of your self identity. And so stories of like the ultimate strangeness or Massive Event I think are ways that you cope. You did a Kickstarter campaign and get this going. Yup. And you had this intention to tell this story. And so midway through you uncovered a completely different story about this man. And I think this is very true of documentary film. You know, of course the difference from fiction film fiction film, you get to control the entire story, start to finish [00:06:30] and documentary. You're dealing with real human lives over a very long time. Like this is the sixth year since this started. We were filming for about two years. Very, very consistently. Humans have messy, complicated, strange lives. And I think any documentary, you never know when you start what it will be at the end. Speaker 3:But in this one specifically, that was startling. And my team, the team I work with is amazing. They started as dear friends, the other director with me as Jeremy Lang, DL Anderson as the producer, Michael Barton, [00:07:00] associate producer and this amazing editor Nina of Manir. We just held a really safe, terrifying, vulnerable space to think about, oh my God, what, what has just happened? This is totally different than we thought we were going to make. How do we go forward honoring that change and also, which I think is so important, communicating it to the people you're making a film about. Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay [00:07:30] area innovators. Today I'm speaking with Alex flair. She's the director of a documentary film called farmer veteran Erin next week on PBS. It examines the challenges veterans face when they returned to civilian life after Iraq and Afghanistan. I mean it is an enormous privilege and burden to be responsible for someone else's story. So how did you, it must have added time and money on, Speaker 3:yes, yes. Documentary filmmaking is not a glamorous high paying. So [00:08:00] did you have to do, we had the amazing privilege and opportunity to be part of Itvs, which is independent television service, which you applied to them through a grant process and they're a branch of PBS. And then they come on as your co-producer if you get it. So did they come on with your previous story? No, they came on after mom learned the surprises. I mean, and we were all Jeremy and DLR dads. I was in Grad school. We were all working other jobs like this. This was in the most purest [00:08:30] form of labor of love. Like we went out in our free time when we could, we borrowed gear, you know, we use very old technology compared to, you know, what is available nowadays. So it was absolutely a shoe string doing it out of the love of it. Speaker 3:And then once we got itvs, which would be the path to getting on independent lens next week on PBS, they, they gave us the money for all our postproduction. Did you start a production company? Actually it's part of the origin story is I had met Alex Sutton, our [00:09:00] main character through my job outreaching to farms around the same time DL was starting a skill share collective because in that part of North Carolina, like Durham Chapel Hill, there are a lot of documentary makers. So DL DL had the idea to basically trade skills and support each other. I showed up with this idea to make a film about a farmer veteran. Jeremy, the other director with me was working in a, a beautiful photography project about veterans soldiers coming home. [00:09:30] So the three of us hooked up and then to make this story and then out of that DL with Michael founded, um, vittles as a production company. Speaker 3:So you don't have to go to school to make a film. It might make some things easier, but you can definitely learn, learn along the way. But it was a challenge and a challenge. They are dear friends and people I care about deeply. But you have multiple creative ideas. I would say at times that was a challenge of, and that comes with great trust and I think patient [00:10:00] work over time that we could make space that we could hear each other's thoughts challenged when we wanted to challenge or suggest other ideas, especially when the huge twist came in the story that was a deeply emotional and vulnerable place to have invested so much time, so much personal money, deep sacrifice of, you know, social connections and friendships to make this film out of nothing. So there were some very, very hard times of really believing [00:10:30] that we were making something that was worth it because it's easy to be discouraged. Speaker 3:You were also on a bunch of festivals and you got a lot of great accolades and awards. I think one of the lessons learned is it's worth your money to get a publicist because we were pretty much, you know, nobody's, none of us had ever worked on feature films before ever. And we were all coming from backgrounds different than filmmaking and only our producer had taken any classes in film making. So this was kind of diving [00:11:00] off the deep end, not knowing what we were getting into, but we had lots of success, especially in the southeast being a film out of the south, out of North Carolina. And I think that might be part of it is, is having that connection to place and issues of veterans and rural areas is, I mean is across our entire country. But in the southeast is definitely, um, it is a very real issue that I think people face and, and lot of lots of military families, again everywhere, but lots of them in the southeast. Speaker 3:What are some [00:11:30] of those groups or people that you met and what are they saying we need to do? We're um, informally partnering with a lot of groups that look at the trauma side of it and also the side of the burden that comes onto caregivers. Like the people that love the veteran that is suffering from trauma and talking about what it is to live with someone with that kind of trauma. So we had recently an Oakland did a screening and we had um, Dr Broder who works with a group called horse sensing in the bay area that [00:12:00] does Aquinas horse therapy with veterans. There's a lot of groups that do animal therapy, fishing therapy, wilderness therapy. There's a group called vet scape that is started by a veteran that is almost like outdoor adventure for veterans and the VA, the few VA's that we've connected with, there's an amazing man named Dr. Cooper at the Arkansas VA in their mental health department who said that this film is like the film for Understanding PTSD and how it affects the [00:12:30] veterans that are trying to integrate back into society. Speaker 3:There's also the farmer veteran coalition and they do everything from having local chapters in, I don't know if it's every state, but also they do a lot of policy work to try to help veterans. Our biggest hope for this film is to ignite a new conversation the same that there's an urban rural divide and we saw that play out in our election. I think there's also a veterans' civilian divide and I mean I think of my [00:13:00] community and I only know one veteran as a friend. I think there's this massive disconnection between who serves in our wars and who doesn't and then what is the responsibility for those of us that don't serve to understand the experience of those coming back and that it's a very nuanced, complicated, messy experience. I think one thing I learned about PTSD and trauma healing is it's not linear like you don't, there is no pill that you can take that it, things might make you feel a little [00:13:30] better, but it's therapy work. Speaker 3:It's group work. It's agriculture work. Like because trauma is so subjective, you have to find the thing that works for that person. And also like our main character's wife, Jessica in the film, she says it might get better. It might not. If it doesn't, you still have to live with that person and, and love them and support them and understand them. It bothers me that so many people with these issues also have access to a lot of guns. Absolutely. That's, that's in the [00:14:00] film. And I think that's another kind of human messy area is that his guns in Iraq was the single thing that kept him safe in many ways. So we shouldn't blame them for then as they need to seek safety, having a relationship with their guns. But again, it's that line of like is it to their benefit to keep having a relationship with the guns. Speaker 3:And that's one reason why I think agriculture life can be of benefit to veterans. What were some of the challenges you encountered besides the fact [00:14:30] that the plot basically changed in making your first film? I mean, I think you touched on it before Lisa, but I think money is a huge, huge challenge. Being newcomers who you know, makes a big difference. So if you don't know people, it can be, it can be tricky to find, you know, find your way into festivals or things like that. Challenges with them. I mean they, they were so open and so brave. I think it's so brave to let someone make a film about you. [00:15:00] I see it as a courageous, deeply compassionate act to, to have your story, hopefully make other lives better. And, and in our conversations with them, that is what they hoped for by laying themselves bare, including their darkness than their hardness is that their story might make it better for other people. Speaker 3:And though a challenge was continuing to communicate along the way, they got sick of us. Of course. I mean you can't, you're basically living with these basically. Yeah, having a camera in their [00:15:30] face. I mean it would be Jeremy and I out there with, you know, saying ignore us and, but like you can't ignore someone that's right there. I think one thing that frustrates me is when filmmakers say they're a fly on the wall, like you're never ever a fly on the wall. You can do things to become more invisible to your, your people in your story. But you're always changing it because you're there with a camera filming. What's happening? Does he come out to your screenings? He is not come out. He has seen the film. So a lot of people asked that like, have they seen the film? What [00:16:00] do they think? Speaker 3:What do they think? I mean they feel exposed. They feels like very personal things that are revealed to audiences but they maintain them and I still talk to them all the time. I talked to his wife very frequently and I don't know if it made things better or worse. And I think that's again like a cross that the filmmaker has to bear in many cases as not really knowing like was it better that we asked them all these very difficult questions that a therapist might ask when we started, we thought it was going to be a very quick short film. So [00:16:30] negotiating like, okay, a year has passed, we still want to be here, we still want to talk. We think the story's changing. We think it's going to be more about you know, your trauma and, and how it affects you. I mean we did our best to be as transparent and communicative all the way as possible, but you know, and also like I see photographs, I hate what I look like. Speaker 3:Like I think that's a very human experience to like think you look one way. And then see a film and you don't look the way, you know you're not Rambo on film and like, cause that came up [00:17:00] a little bit of like discouragement of even just like the physical, like I don't look like a movie star. And we're like well it's not. This is a Hollywood movie. You talk about the cocktail of drugs that he saw and I have read a lot about veterans, who they're given drugs when they're in service and then when they come back that continued to do drugs. And how does your character, Alex feel about having to be on so many drugs? When men and women are in service, they're under the Department of Defense, [00:17:30] the dod. And when they come back they're under the veterans affairs, the VA and the dod and the VA. Speaker 3:What I've read is that they don't always talk to each other. So the treatment that the men and women are getting under the dod while they're in combat, they are with extremely well intentioned doctors doing the best they can to handle the situation at the time. So you say you can't sleep, you're given sleep meds, you're saying you have anxiety, which who wouldn't in combat, you're given anti-anxiety man, you need to stay [00:18:00] awake and you need to stay awake or you need, I mean whatever's going on, they're doing the best they can to treat them and then they come back. And when you take things to just cope with really stressful circumstances, those aren't necessarily the same things you should be taking when you come back. But, and then you don't really have the departments talking to each other that well and again at the VA for as much press as they've gotten, they are extremely dedicated people working at the VA to try to do their best to take care of veterans on not enough resources. Speaker 3:[00:18:30] And the other thing is most medicine that we have as civilians is tested in like data trials and controlled trials. Veterans as a, as a group don't really want to wait around maybe having a placebo. I know a trial they're doing, they're using psychedelics. Yes. And MTMA for veterans to see if it can reduce and it's been really successful. The other thing too, if you think about so much of the brain when it has to do with like depression or not sleeping or anxiety, it's very subjective. So the [00:19:00] pill that might work for Bob does not necessarily cure PTSD in John, you know, for example. So I think that's one of the battles that we have to treat trauma and PTSD is fine. There's no one size fits all. And that's one thing I learned a lot in making this lesson. It's very expensive to have that kind of individual attention. Speaker 3:Absolutely. And individual therapy and diagnosis. Exactly. And I think for myself, like I use the Benadryl example, but [00:19:30] when I take a Benadryl, I don't feel like myself, you know, it alters the way I feel in my body. In our main character here is a man who for years and years has been on a mix of up to 15 different medications. He doesn't know who he is, like who he is without those drugs. He has not met that person in years. And I think what is common in many veterans that are dependent on medication to wake up, to go to sleep, to not freak out to [00:20:00] whatever is the fear of unknowing what would happen if they stopped or were able to wean off. There's such a dependency. You make a good point there about years of this cause you give the example that he joined up at the age of 17 and how old is he now? Speaker 3:I am making the film. We met him at 33 so lots of years to lie on drugs and Afghanistan and Iraq are the longest wars we've ever had in the United States history [00:20:30] with the least serving with the least serving that. Thus the repeated tours. You said you came out of radio and so my background is in college. I got involved in the student radio station and fell in love with it. And where was this? And this was at Brown University and back in the early two thousands late nineties early two thousands and I had a a teacher I loved that suggested I try my hand at radio and I had listened to it like this. American life was early days and I loved that but I [00:21:00] never thought it was something accessible to me. And then once I got the mic in my hands like this world opened up to access people's stories and I love, I love when you are limited to sound only and how you craft a story when all you have is sound. Speaker 3:I love that and I went on to work as a freelancer making radio stories for different shows. I worked for several years at the Center for Documentary Studies in North Carolina at Duke. It's part of Duke University, so I was a student of theirs for [00:21:30] a couple of years and then I worked for them for a couple of years. There was so much like short film starting online and this is about like 2011 2012 I started really getting curious of pairing images with sound. The nonprofit I was working for, I was making some multimedia stories for them. And I think radio directly set me up to do film. Well, I mean you have to learn new equipment of course, and how to use a camera and lighting and speed and all those technical details. But the act of being an empathetic listener, [00:22:00] learning how to ask good interview questions, learning how to be comfortable in silence, like being able to anticipate your story, all those skills that you learn in audio production that translated pretty easily into film. Speaker 3:And if you mess up your sound, your films ruined. Like you have to have good sound in film also. So I think the radio background helped prepare me. You have a great soundtrack on this film. Can you talk about how you went about getting the music and some of the original pieces? [00:22:30] Yes. Um, so for people that don't make documentary films, uh, getting the licensing rights to music that is owned by other people can be extremely, extremely expensive and prohibitive in the film. When you see or hear that music, it actually falls under what is called fair use law. And so because we did not choose that music, it was music that was happening in the scene. Like Flo rider's Lo is a song that the veteran chose to have at his wedding. So we as filmmakers, [00:23:00] we're not making any aesthetic decisions about it. Speaker 3:It just happens in the life of these people and that falls under fair use ruling. Now, if we had taken that song and we had chosen it and kind of played it over a scene, then we would have to pay for it. The song that is basically the theme song of our film Jubilee, this beautiful, beautiful ballad and sung by three incredible singer, Amelia May 8th who is still Vanessa and Vanessa and you use another [00:23:30] woman who they were both in mountain man. Yes. They were both Alexandria, not man. When I saw, how did you get Alice Gerard to get involved in this? Oh man, this is an incredible, incredible singer. I wish I had something to do with it. I didn't. It was our producer. DL Anderson. Yeah. Speaker 4:[inaudible] Speaker 5:so [inaudible], [inaudible] Speaker 4:[00:24:00] [inaudible] swing again to really to really say, hey, [inaudible], Speaker 3:one of his dear friends is this incredible man, Phil Cook, who is an incredible, incredible, [00:24:30] like a, can't say that word enough musician and composer. He composed all the music in our film. Phil is like this sunshine that is connected to all these amazing musicians. He was an a, still is an abandoned Megafaun. Yeah, Speaker 6:which is incredible man. He also has his own group called Phil Cook, Speaker 7:[inaudible], [inaudible], [00:25:00] [inaudible], [inaudible] [inaudible], Speaker 6:[00:25:30] and he's just the kind of person that brings people in RPD, CTL DL, who is raising his head Speaker 3:with Phil Cook's son like they're best friends, and through that connection, Phil I think had the ideas of who would be the good singers for this. An Amelia of Sylvan is Durham based. When she's not touring her amazing music [00:26:00] and jubilee, the rights. It's so, it's such an old song, this Appalachian valid that it had no copyright on it or we were able to have them sing it. What's coming up for you next? I am working on a new documentary feature film that I began a little while ago. I am very, very privileged to have gotten a California humanities grant for it. So big props to the Neh, want to support them to help it stay exist forever. And I'm a a film House resident through the Program SF [00:26:30] film that supports local filmmakers, both documentary and fiction. So I'm working on a story about 89 year old ex republican congressman Pete mccloskey who was a Republican, um, under Nixon's administration and even ran against Nixon for presidency on an anti war ticket. Speaker 3:And he with his wife who is 30 years younger than him, they live on a farm outside of Davis and they are mounting this very don Quixote in quest to find people to run in [00:27:00] 2018 to challenge politicians that are not being supportive of everything. Pete and Helen belief in Pete was a part of all our modern environmental policy. So he was part of the clean air act, the endangered species act. He Co founded Earth Day like that was his baby. Who would think today. I mean, especially like my generation and younger that it was under Republicans during Nixon that so much of our modern environmental policy and civil rights policy happens. So I'm, I'm using this film to explore [00:27:30] like what it is to be getting older and relevance and, and to watch this thing that you built be taken apart and also the power of love. Speaker 3:Like they've been together almost 40 years. Like how the people we love, who love US influence our identity and our passion, our fights. So I ran pretty early production. I'm right now trying to fundraise. So I am doing it through grants right now. I think one challenge and lesson learned with farmer veteran is that we in hindsight did our Kickstarter way too [00:28:00] early, way too early. We should have waited. We should have waited until we had grown a bigger awareness. We had amazing support and we met our goal. I think we even went beyond our goal, but it was mostly like family and friends that loved us. And I think, which of course is amazing, but I think if we had waited we could have maybe had a bigger splash. And so that's one thing I'm taking with this new film is to maybe hold off a little while there aren't incredible films out there that deserve love and money and attention and it's a huge playing [00:28:30] field and the, the pool of funding is so, so tiny. Speaker 3:So it's, it's um, I mean it's such a privilege to tell other people's stories, but to make a living at it is, is, is pretty tricky. When can local people see this film on PBS? So we are so honored to have this film beyond the show independent Lens, which is an Emmy award winning show on PBS Independent Lens. You should double check your local listings, but I believe it's 7:00 PM on Monday. [00:29:00] Memorial Day KQD. Yes. So kqbd Memorial Day, May 29th, pretty sure it's 7:00 PM Pacific Standard Time. And you will also be able to watch it online on KQ eds channel online for, I believe it's two weeks. It'll be streaming there. If anyone has a question they want to ask, please, please. We have a website. Um, it's the title of the film farmer veteran one word farmer, veteran.com. And if you, you can find out all the information there, but if you click on this screening [00:29:30] button, we actually have set it up so that you can bring, you can host your own screening of farmer veteran in your own community. So we have everything set up and laid out to allow you to do that. So if you want have a party in your backyard Speaker 1:or you are a nonprofit and you want to host it for the veterans in your community, you can do that. Farmer veteran.com. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. You've been listening to method to the madness, to a weekly public affairs show on k a l x burglary celebrating bay area innovators. [00:30:00] You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be back next Friday at noon. Speaker 2:[inaudible] Speaker 7:okay. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Ali Nazar interviews Rabi'a Keeble, founder of Berkeley's Qal'bu Maryam, the first women led, all inclusive mosque in America.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:[inaudible]. Speaker 2:You are listening to k a l x Berkeley 90.7 FM, university of California and listener supported radio. And this is a method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calyx celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. [00:00:30] I'm your host, Colleen Huizar. And today in studio we have with us a special guest Rabi'a Keeble from the women's mosque here in Berkeley. Hi Robia. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. Um, and Rabiah, uh, has joined us today after launching, uh, the mosque in the last few weeks. So we're going to get into that in a little bit. But first, Ruby, I have a question for you. The same question I asked all founders of organizations. Sure. You have seen a problem [00:01:00] there. Usually people start something cause there's a vacuum or a void, right? So, um, can you explain, please tell us what's the problem that your new organization is trying to solve? Speaker 3:Wow. You know, it's a whole, uh, list of things actually, and it's not likely that Cowbell Mariam is gonna solve all of these problems, but at least we're opening up the conversation and hopefully there will [00:01:30] be a robust sort of conversation that continues on this topic. But some of the things that I, I believe have been issues for me personally, uh, and my journey as a Muslim since I converted, uh, 15 years ago is, is mainly accessibility. Um, I never could figure out, now I, I know the [inaudible] very well [inaudible] to death and all this, [00:02:00] but I never could figure out why women had to sit behind men if they were allowed in the same space at all. Second of all, why women were using separate entrances sometimes, uh, separate buildings, sometimes, uh, not allowed at all to attend a mosque. But the places that I've [00:02:30] been to right here in Berkeley, right here in the bay area, we still have mosques that do this. Speaker 3:And I was like, I was not entirely a mosque copper. I did settle in at one mosque where I, I stayed there for some time, but there were times when I was invited other places and I was surprised. I was really surprised. You know, it's a lack of accessibility to the mom, uh, to facilities. Uh, quite often [00:03:00] you'd go to these women's areas and they were not clean, uh, distress looking. Um, many of them were just very cutoff. Uh, one place was just a room, a separate room, no plasma TV screen, no projection. It was just a separate room. And I, I recall asking someone like, well how do you know what the mom is saying? How do you know when this is happening or that is happening? [00:03:30] And I was actually told by one of the sisters that, well, you know, we don't really need to know. Speaker 3:You know, and I think over time, perhaps not intentionally, you collect all of these things, you know, and it gets to the point where you even have a lot of questions and where do you go to have your questions answered? The most that I attended the women's sat behind the men, but there was [00:04:00] still an acknowledgement that we were separate. Um, but often the men would talk to the mom, they would ask questions, there would be conversations going back and forth, and the women are all the way in the back. And it's like, what if I have a question? What if there's something that's nagging and I want to ask him about it? I can't just chat him up like these guys are chatting them up. I have to sit back here and then I have to wait [00:04:30] until June was over and I have to plow through all the men who are trying to get at him. Speaker 3:And that means I don't get an opportunity. So I saw it also as just an issue of accessibility. Um, there's also, I think a problem when you separate men and women that men lose an opportunity to know women better, to actually learn from women. Um, [00:05:00] you know, there's like sort of ships in the night, you know, if you even say some lady come to her brother's like, what did you just say? Oh, you know, we're just exchanging a greeting brothers. Nothing more than that, you know, but even that is sometimes chancy. So how do we establish, how do we establish like a normalized kind of, uh, of interactions and normalized kind of relationship with our brothers is, [00:05:30] you know, a lot of people say, well, why do you want to kick me to the curb? Or You mad at men? This is not being mad at men. Speaker 3:This the same join us, but let's get together in a different way. Let's be allies, let's be friends. Let's, let's, let's ignore all these odd little things that are traditional things for sure. Uh, that you can't talk to a woman in lunch. This your, you know, like what's going to happen [00:06:00] if you do that or, uh, I think maybe it was the chronicle article where they talked to any mom in Santa Clara, like about men praying, potentially praying behind a woman. And I think is the answer was, well, you can do it, but I don't want to see the repercussions. I was like, holy macro, what, what repercussions are we talking about here? Speaker 2:Well, there's so many different interpretations of all scripture, and I think, [00:06:30] you know, uh, enlightened Muslim men argue that something like the hijab is the first responsibility is on the man to avert his temptation and desire. There's lots of different ways to look at things. I think that the, uh, that a mom, you know, who knows where he's coming from, but, uh, no. Uh, but, you know, I think I want to follow up on that question is, is a beautiful statement of the problem statement you're trying to solve is, I think what I think I'm hearing you say is that the moss [00:07:00] that you're starting in Berkeley is to rethink that relationship between men and women and have them on an equal playing field in the eyes of cod and in front of an a mom so that everybody can pursue mama and Mama. Is that, what, is it the feminine of your mom? Okay. So I'm to everybody can be an equal footing to pursue their spiritual enlightenment. Um, but before we get further into the vision and how this is going, tell us a little bit about you. How did you, uh, arrive to Islam and, and [00:07:30] you know, what was your journey to, to this religion? That's pretty complicated. Speaker 3:Try and kind of like reduce it into a digestible portion. Um, I was some nominally race as a Christian. Uh, my family was not very religious, although we, you know, grew up with a lot of religion around us. We didn't belong to a church, uh, but I absorbed a lot [00:08:00] of the, uh, Christian, you know, lifestyle knowledge ethics because we were surrounded with it. Um, I would say that, uh, I was always interested in scripture even at a very young age. Uh, I was always very interested in knowing more. I wanted to know God, I really, I wrote really recall being very young and wanting to know who god was. And [00:08:30] I really thought that I could find it in the Bible and I would read the Bible and read the Bible and read the Bible. And I actually at a very young age, knew the Bible incredibly well. Speaker 3:I could quote it. Um, but that was my, you know, that was my initial journey. And I think like a lot of young people, you know, you wonder off the path, you start exploring life in different ways and is not a big deal for, for most, you know, college kids and whatever. They're not [00:09:00] thinking about that. They're thinking of other stuff. And so I think I was like any other adolescent or teenager, I sort of didn't care. And, um, there came a point in my life when I was looking for something healing another path, I don't know. And I actually came across a flyer at Berkeley Library, the main library that said Sufi healing. And I was like, hmm, I don't even know what Sufi [00:09:30] is. I don't, I wonder what this is. I had time, so I said, I'm going to check it out. And I came up on campus and, um, I went to this gathering and even though I was not really sure what was happening, I really loved the people I was around. Speaker 3:I had never been around people who were so welcoming, so kind. And it appeared so forgiving and loving. They weren't [00:10:00] afraid to show love and to pull me in and to, and to, you know, acknowledge my humanity. Does that make sense? And to treat me honestly and fairly, even though I was asking stupid questions, which I was asking a lot of at the time. And eventually, um, you know, exposure to Sufism absolutely exposes you to Islam because [00:10:30] who FISM is Islam, excuse me, can no for coal. And, um, with the exposure to Islam through Sufism, I sort of, it felt like something had opened up to me, you know, really beautiful. It was like, it was very unusual. It was like, what is this wonderful thing? Speaker 3:[00:11:00] And so, you know, many people see Islam and Sufism as separate and it's just not so, and, um, I think if you're really a lover, as Sophie's would say, of the beloved, it makes you want to dig deeper and to Islam, you know, to find the roots of this, how these people, whoever they were, were able to tap into this [00:11:30] very unique and wonderful way of expressing their worship in their love of God. Um, I didn't know until later that in some places Sufism was looked down upon. Um, and I didn't understand it. I never could understand it. Uh, I would hear things like dance that's wrong. They use music that's around the men and women dance [00:12:00] together. That's even more how wrong. It's like Akash you know, what kind of existence is that? Where are you doing is looking for things to yell? Ha. Rahmat yeah. Which is unfortunately Speaker 2:very much so much part of the Muslim world these days is that's how they operate is as a judgment. And, you know, uh, you know, I'm a Muslim myself. Um, it's a tragedy to see the characterization [00:12:30] of the religion that's happening in popular culture today because it's the antithesis of what you're talking about. It's not the love base of my tradition that I grew up in was very much similar to, you know, looking at, uh, the, the world who wondrous eyes, who the love the beloved spirit. Um, as opposed to this, uh, the absolute opposite, the negativity of like, you're doing this wrong. You're doing this wrong, which turns people off their religion Speaker 3:turns to people. It just, it's, it's, it's kind of a weird paradox. [00:13:00] You would think it would turn people off and you think it would push women back and make them like what really, you know, think a little bit [inaudible] you see just the opposite. You see these women that are so willing to be controlled, so willingly following even very mistaken and misguided people in a lot of cases, not all [00:13:30] shakes, any moms are misguided, but in a lot of cases they are. And I'm just so shocked sometimes when women act so afraid or they will come to me and they'll will say, well sister, what makes you think that it's okay to pray with men or for women to lead prayer? I said the Quran, have you read it? You know, and they're always, you know, like very suspicious. Like really? But the Koran says that, you know, [00:14:00] a great, the great majority of people that I talk to have never read the crown for themselves. Speaker 3:They've always had someone tell them what's in it. Interesting. And their spin on it as a matter of fact. And so this is one of the biggest problems I think that we run into as Muslims, is that it's always like, I feel like there is this desire to spin things to [00:14:30] maintain control rather than to educate rather than to elevate. I had this conversation with someone, I forget who, and he was insisting that a man could not marry a divorcee. Right. And I was thinking to myself, I said, but where's that in the car? I don't know if a woman's divorce, she can't marry her. Well, I'm sorry, but what some Kadesia [00:15:00] I divorce a problem. Speaker 2:[inaudible] married a divorce woman. Speaker 3:I divorced one man, you know rom you. Yeah. Ridiculous. There's so many people [inaudible] women who don't know that. Yeah. They don't know that he hadn't like up to nine wives in his lifetime. Maybe more. And a few of them were widows or divorcees. So, you know, I think [00:15:30] it's becoming very clear that education is such a huge, huge part of this and women necessarily have to start educating women and men because we're not as tied to status quo as men are. I think men feel like they have to carry this. They have to continue with it. They they, they have to do this thing with this, but it's like, okay, [00:16:00] you know, after, while don't you understand that this is something you can share, that it's okay to talk to a knowledgeable, educated sister or maybe one who isn't but has good questions in that you can sit and talk and not worry about who's married and who's wearing hijab and who's this and that and the other thing and just work on that. Because we're in a, we're in a situation here in America [00:16:30] all over the world where the world thinks of us, Hispanic people, they think of us as terrorists. They think of us as people who want to destroy their comforts and to change how I had someone, some woman asked me, she goes, well, I just don't want to have any Shiria law. I said, are you Muslim? No, I am not. I said, you don't have to worry about because it's not for you. It's for [00:17:00] Muslims. Speaker 2:Yeah. Wow. That's a talking point of the right. I mean it's, this is scare tactic, but we're talking to Rabiah Keel. She's a Kibo, she's the founder of, uh, Kaaboo. Mariam is how you pronounce it. Um, it's a, a brand new moths here in Berkeley, California. Um, and it is the, um, first mosque in the nation that is led by women that it's all inclusive. So it's, uh, open to men and women, but led [00:17:30] by women right here in our fair town of Berkeley, California. Thanks for joining us. Rubia um, Ga, Berkeley. I want to ask you about, um, you know, you're an innovator and it's not always, this is, this show is about innovation. Okay. And it's not always, um, easy innovate in the business world. I talk to a lot of people, it's kind of put up on a pedestal because you know, people love this term, especially in the bay area to disrupt and has startups, but you're innovating [00:18:00] in a place that people don't always love religion. Speaker 2:Right? You know, people have their dog Ma and you're talking about men who have trouble seeing, um, why there's problems. Cause it's kind of always been this way. And in my experience with religion, people rely on their tradition. That's one of the comforts of religion. Sure. It's always been this way. Doesn't change. Absolutely. So I want to ask you about that leap that you've taken of how you saw the problem and said, you know, why are the sisters behind the brothers? Why can't they talk [00:18:30] to the mom? So you decided to do something about it. And I'm fascinated by this and people who take this jump from seeing a problem to actually doing something about it. Can you explain to us what, what spurred that notion in you that you need to do something about this? Speaker 3:Well, I didn't think I needed to do something about it. I felt like somebody needed to do something about it. And I waited. I actually waited and I would, [00:19:00] you know, I also tried to be the obedient Muslima. I really did. I was, you know, I'd sit and watch stuff go down and not say anything because I was afraid of backbiting and I did all of that stuff. And you know, uh, yeah. I mean, but I waited, you know, I was patient with it. And honestly I believe that it's kind of a divine [00:19:30] intervention. I don't, I don't think by myself that I would have done this because I would've been afraid. But I think that God has basically been with me throughout this. I've, I felt it, I felt led. Um, the way things were sort of falling into place was just unbelievable. And the support, um, I'm sure there's elements [00:20:00] in the Muslim community that wanted me to fail. Speaker 3:I have no doubt about it. There are people in the Muslim community that see me as an upstart and troublemaker and all that. I get that, um, because I also address very powerfully racism and all those other things that we don't ever want to talk about. Polite Muslims, don't want to talk about it. But that's sad. I don't think it was me. [00:20:30] I think it was God, I think this will, it will be successful or fail based on God's timing, not mine. Um, I decided from the beginning to step out of it to not have my and cage tenant and I, there's been times, there was a reporter from mouches Sarah last week and she was insisting, she says, well, I cannot film, [00:21:00] there's no men here. There's only women here. Speaker 4:Okay, Speaker 3:how is this inclusive if there's no men here? I said, because I don't hire people. It's like any other mosque. Whoever wants to come, comes, whoever does, I want to go and they don't come. So I said, I'm sorry, I can't help you. She says, okay, I'll come next week and can, can you get some brothers, call some brothers and tell us. I was like, so [00:21:30] la. Anyway. Speaker 2:[inaudible] well, um, let me ask you about, um, a more general question for our listeners. Probably most of them are not Muslims that don't understand the importance of the mosque to Muslim life. And, um, and, and we're speaking with, uh, Rabi'a Keeble. She's the founder of called Marianna Hae, a woman's Moss. All inclusive. Mazda started here in Berkeley, uh, in April, I think is when, is that when you launched the official list? Yeah. So just last month, right here in Berkeley. [00:22:00] Um, so can you tell us a little bit about what is the importance of the mosque and why is it so important to have one that, uh, matches the kind of ethos you're talking about? Speaker 4:Well, Speaker 3:I don't know exactly what you want me to say here, but, um, the way I see a mosque and having been exposed to Christian Christianity and the way Christians to things, especially Black Christians and [00:22:30] Black Christian women, for me a place of worship is part of my life as a woman. I didn't see myself excluded because in Christianity, the type that I grew up with, southern Baptist women were not excluded. Women were leaders. So oftentimes pastors are doing very important things. So coming into Islam, I didn't leave that behind. [00:23:00] That's part of me where if I'm in a worship situation, I'm looking for female leadership as well as male. Right. Um, I believe that mosque are community oriented mainly, uh, in the west. It can't really be that way because we don't have neighborhoods around, you know, people will drive an hour to get to the mosque or [00:23:30] whatever. You don't just walk over and it's not the center of the village or the city or whatever. But I believe the intention is it was that, and it was the place where you would go to hear the news, to hear announcements, um, to hear the word, to heal, hear inspiration, um, to ask questions, whatever, you know, it was in that gathering space. Speaker 3:Was it original? The question is, [00:24:00] was it originally conceived of as a place where men and women attended jointly? Uh, no, probably not because that was not the culture of the time. Speaker 2:No. Bar Arabia in the 600 Speaker 3:does very, very, very gender, you know, uh, specific about things. You know, only women did these things. Only men did these things and blah, blah, blah. You know, the whole thing. So I [00:24:30] think that this was seen as a male space, but that was because that was what it was like an Arabian, the seventh century. Yeah. Very divided, very, very, uh, you know, assignments, uh, for gender that which informed I think other things. But, um, now in the 21st century here in America, how does that model work for us? And I would say it doesn't work so well. Yeah. It's not the reality [00:25:00] of our everyday life as it was then. We go to work, we mix, we go to the store, we stand behind or in front of somebody who's of the opposite gender. Um, we drive down the street, we go to the gas state, whatever. Everything that we do. It's mixed. It's mixed. Yup. Speaker 2:So I think what I'm hearing you say is the importance of the mosque is to reflect the society [00:25:30] that we live in, to build a community of, of worshipers, of Islamic worshipers, but reflective of more of our times. Yeah. And, and which is, I think the problem you're trying to solve, which is so appropriate. It is an innovation that's needed and the bravery that you're showing to stand up and, and do it is really amazing and inspiring. So thank you so much trivia. I really appreciate you coming here. I wanted to ask you one last question. Um, you've created, you're creating [00:26:00] a space, right? And what struck me, I went to one of your launch events was the diversity of people that were there. Yeah. Um, so can you tell me maybe one or two stories of your favorite things that have happened so far? Surprises to you cause you're creating a space of worship for people to come and express. Yeah. Things that maybe they haven't been able to express anywhere else. Cause you've created this safe, wonderful, diverse space. Yeah. Well what's, what's happened to you so far that you've been like, wow, that was, that was amazing. Speaker 3:[00:26:30] I tell you the whole time I've been like, wow, yeah, I fully expect it that nobody would show up. I fully, I did. I fully expected that, you know, the word would get out over there. Don't do that because me as doing whatever it is, but it didn't turn out that way because God is guiding this. And, um, I think one of the most powerful things, it wasn't a big thing. There was a, uh, a brother who [00:27:00] came to one of the Joomla's and, uh, I had done the call to prayer, I had called [inaudible] and I had never done it before my life, but you know, that tells you something, right? That I was exposed to it enough that I knew it. Yeah. Speaker 2:And Juma, for those who don't know is the Friday prayer is the Sabbath of, of uh, Muslim. Speaker 3:Alright. [inaudible] and this brother said to me, one thing that we're doing, uh, is that after Solat, [00:27:30] instead of everybody bolting, leaving, I ask questions. I say, do you have questions? I want you to talk about what's on your heart. I want you to ask questions. And, um, this brother raised his hand and he said, you know, I really like this because I want my wife to be with me in worship. I want her in the kid sitting next to me. [00:28:00] I had never thought of that. I really had never thought that that might be something that's very supportive and comforting for man is to have his wife next to him. And it really touched me. Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a beautiful story. I'll share with you what really inspired me. Plus as someone who's a Muslim but also loves music. Um, when I went to one of your launch events, um, you had a convert who got up there and talked about how she had missed gospel music [00:28:30] from when she was growing up as a Christian. And so she decided to incorporate gospel music into Islam and then did an Islamic prayer in a gospel way. She just blew my mind and my wife and I look at each other like, this is the place for us. This is amazing. Although we don't do that in Juma. We don't do that. Yeah. I mean that was, uh, that was the initial launch, but it was, I think, part of the spirit, which is that you're creating a safe place for people to express themselves and in Islam [00:29:00] that hasn't been easy to do in my lifetime. Um, so it's, it's amazing, amazing innovation. This, this store, this, this show is about innovation. And, uh, I especially like having spiritual, uh, people on the show to talk about. They're helping to forge new paths in the bay area. So we've been speaking with, uh, Robbia Keeble. She is the founder of Kobu. Maryam is a women's all inclusive mosque here in Berkeley. Just started Rubia [00:29:30] if people want to get involved, they want to attend a service. If they want to join the congregation, how can they do that? Speaker 3:They can do that by Friday, Fridays at 1230 [inaudible] at two, four, four one cod avenue at the Graduate Theological Union star King School of the ministry, which is only a block or two from UC Berkeley. Um, you can join us and, um, the doors are open. Please join us. So 1230 on Friday Friday's [00:30:00] graduate theological union, Starr King School, the ministry to four four oh one, La Conte. Great. Thank you so much for coming in today. Thank you for having me. They come slow on. Best of luck. Okay. Listening to method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm here. I was telling the czar, have a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Anna Sturla speaks with members of Dharma College: Robin Caton, director; Richard Dixey, faculty; and Joor Baruah, student. Located in downtown Berkeley, the school’s mission is to ignite personal and global transformation by helping people unlock the power of their minds.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. Speaker 2:[00:00:30] You're listening to method to the madness. Eight weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators today. Producer Anna sterlite is speaking to members of the Dharma College community in downtown Berg. Speaker 3:Welcome to method to the madness. Thank you. Thank you. Bring us here. Can you go down the line and introduce yourselves please? My name is [00:01:00] Robin Cayton and I'm the director of Dharma College. Hi, I'm Richard Dixie. I'm an instructor. Speaker 4:Hi, my name is Julie Barilla and I am associated with them, my college as a volunteer and also as the longterm student. Speaker 3:So could you please explain a little bit about the history of Dharma College? Dermot College was started in 2010, although we actually didn't launch our classes until the fall of 2012. We spent the first two years, um, uh, renovating the facility and [00:01:30] also training to teach, uh, the curriculum that we are now teaching. And, uh, the school was founded by a traditionally trained to Benton Lama named Tarthang toolkit. What was the inspiration for starting the college? The inspiration was this new book that he had written. It's a book called revelations of mind and a training on it. We began to see that it required its own audience. Why would a student go to Dharma College? [00:02:00] What's a typical student like? Okay, Speaker 4:I'm a student, so I guess I'll share my experience. Um, so my background is I grew up in a corner in the Himalayas and in, in the border of India and China in a state called [inaudible]. And I grew up and I was pursuing my, my life and my career. I got an MBA and I was consulting in business, but at some point after working for 10 years or so, I felt like there was something missing in the nine to five life. So I wanted to look in words and I actually went and spent some time in a monastery and then in, [00:02:30] in the Himalayas and then got to know about this wonderful community out here. So for me, why I wanted to get involved with studying in drama college is because it is very open and eclectic. It welcomes people from all walks of life and all ages. So it's very, very diverse. And Berkeley is, as we all know, is that right? B is the best place to do kind of do an introspection at the mind and I think it helps the students specially focus, cutaway the destructions of what's going on in our day to day and look at what Speaker 3:[00:03:00] really matters. How expensive is it to go there? It's very inexpensive because our classes are six week courses and people can take a single course or they can take multiple courses in each class costs $120 so it's basically $20 a week. It's very inexpensive. It's really about looking inward at the mine. So we have a structured set of classes that help point people in the right direction, but people do their own, their own [00:03:30] transformational work. So you're talking about the, the emphasis on Berkeley. And so what is a typical student like? What is it being part of the community here in Berkeley? I think we ought to share a bit more about what Donald Cottage does. The problem is you come to a university like Berkeley, there's a lot of information that's given to you, which is generated by the mind, but very rarely do you get information about how to use your own mind. Speaker 3:And there's a huge difference between those two things. And of course you could argue that using your own mind isn't an academic topic, but [00:04:00] our own mind is all we've got. So if we never work out how to use it, how are we ever going to be successful? And there is often a very sad phenomenon that happens where people get very well educated, yet at the end of it, they don't really know what they're doing. And that's because they've never used their own mind. Now normally people only get to ask these sorts of questions when they're retired, often they've lived their whole life and then they go, what was life about as a bit sad? Isn't it that you get to the end of your life and ask that question? It will be good to know the answer to that question right at the very beginning. Speaker 3:[00:04:30] So then you could live a meaningful life and not land up at the end guy. What was it for? However being is that, that's where we are. Most of the people who come to us are older and that's because they began to ask those questions that one would hope they would ask right at the very beginning. So of course we're very keen to at least have people exposed to this new way of thinking, which to ask the question, well, what, who am I? What am I asking for? What am I actually doing when I ask the question, who am I? What is that? And this sort of question [00:05:00] is never asked in academic circles. So that's one of the reasons why we're reaching out. This was actually a lecture at a talk on constitutional law and the constitutional convention of 1789. It was my husband who taught this and he is a constitutional law scholar and an attorney. Speaker 3:So, uh, we were talking and he's done a lot of looking in historical research about the, you know, the convention, which was a very difficult, uh, it was a very hot summer [00:05:30] and it was a very, very difficult to bring together people to create our United States constitution, people who are entrenched in positions. We began to see that we could start to think about this question of how the constitution came together as a question of how the mind was working for these various people who had this task. And as we saw that, we began to see that we could use that as a prototype [00:06:00] or a kind of paradigm of how communication issues are entirely dependent on the positioning that people take, that their minds are taking internally. And so from that came this lecture, which was really very, very, very interesting. And that's the kind of thing that we'd like to see happen more and more. Speaker 3:That as people begin to understand what's going on internally, they're able to understand [00:06:30] each other better and communicate better. People who begin incredibly far apart can move to a consensus position more easily. And you know, this is a show focused on bay area innovators. So what's unique about the bay area? Why here is famous, isn't it? It's famous for innovation, is famous for unusual ways of thinking is famous for people doing daring stuff. And so the bear has been like this for 30 40 years. This isn't a new phenomenon, the tool. Are there [00:07:00] any prerequisites necessary to be a part of the college? The only prerequisite is absolute curiosity about your own experience and a willingness to look inward and this is a courageous thing to do. I do have to emphasize that for most of us, immediately we begin to come up with reasons and explanations for everything we do and everything that's happened to us and those reasons and explanations always take the form [00:07:30] of some kind of blame. Speaker 3:So we want to look at that question. What really is the source of our unhappiness? What really is the source of our dissatisfaction? Where really can we find the clarity that might clear up the confusion that most people face, not just once in a while when they have to make major decisions. But you could say daily when they have to decide should I wear the red one or the green one? [00:08:00] There are kinds of things that are going on in our minds. All of our minds, most of the time that we just simply don't admit to each other, we talk more freely about sex or we talk more freely about any other topic than how dysfunctional our inner life is. How confused how an organized disorganized it is and without being able to really [00:08:30] look, really take responsibility and really be willing to share with others and communicate. Speaker 3:It's a one couldn't do this kind of work. So that's the only prerequisite. And what does the school's relationship to the Dalai Lama in particular work around, you know, narrow neuroscientists around meditation? None. We are not associated with the Dalai Lama. We have had from UC professor David Presti [00:09:00] has come to talk at a Dharma College, but we're not a school in which we're really so much interested in the neuroscience of experience as in the what the neuroscientists call in the philosophers call the quality of experience. That is to say how is it working? How is it for us, you know, we can get to the end of our lives and if we know very well that this nerve is hooking up to that nerve and this is what's happening and that's happening, it's not going to change one [00:09:30] bit. Our ability to decide what we want to do with our time on our professional life. It's not going to change our fear of impermanence and our fear of death. So we want to know experientially how it's all working. We don't spend a lot of time other than bringing in some interesting facts. Uh, we don't spend a lot of time analyzing meditation, Speaker 4:but it is, it is also a platform for all kinds of people to come and talk about mine. So we have had people studying neuroscience. [00:10:00] We have had people, uh, students like myself in mid careers. And it's fantastic for students because I am associated with Berkeley School of Journalism in the investigative reporting program. I'm an associate for this year 2017 and I recently finished a very intense, a master's in documentary filmmaking in UC Santa Cruz. Now while I was doing that and I was, you know, working with undergrads, teaching as a assistant to the professors, I realized that we have these, this hangouts, [00:10:30] we hang out in a cafe or work we, we chit chat in the dorms but there is no yields space where you can actually keep the whole stress of studies, of, of just getting marks and grades and and thinking about careers and actually focusing on the mind. And I feel this beautiful building called Herma college right there in downtown Berkeley is a great place for students to come spend their time and, and meet all kinds of people and find the community. I feel like Berkeley is now my [00:11:00] new home and I found a community in this whole, Speaker 5:Dominic college doesn't have a fixed syllabus. Students don't get a grade and we're not teaching. Everybody is the ultimate or authority to their own mind. But the problem is it's normally an unexamined mind and what we try to do is to encourage discussion and presentation around that very question, how do we come to the view of the world we have? Who are we in that view and how do we enact our beliefs and why do we [00:11:30] enact our beliefs? And these are fundamental questions that are addressed. So it's not that there's a right answer to those questions. Everyone is their own authority, but how rare is it to meet anyone who can truly answer those questions? And that seemed to, because our culture looks out with our culture, the western culture in particular is obsessed with the external world and we getting things done. And sadly even in neuroscience, where you these books about neuroscience and positive development, they can have 50 or 70 must do things every chapter, great [00:12:00] long list of things you've got to do in order to understand yourself. But very rarely do they actually say, well, just look at yourself and ask that question. And that is a key ability that we can all develop. We can all develop that ability to actually address our own perception and ask questions about it. And that's a very, very important skill to have. Speaker 3:What are your highlights so far? Accomplishments or personal highlights that you've experienced so far in the space? I think our accomplishments are to [00:12:30] have developed more than 20 courses and to have people of all ages and all walks of life. We now have an online course that I'm teaching Tuesday mornings. I've got someone in England, we have someone in San Diego of people all over the, I'm all over California and the bay area and we're looking at time. We're looking at mind in time. We have courses that are pointing in many, many different directions and depending upon a person's interest or what's being [00:13:00] offered that term, you can begin with practices that relate to your perception and expand your perception, your ability. We have a course coming up this next term starting next week that has to do with working with beauty and joy. I'm going to be teaching a course that has to do with the projection of self. It's called perspectives and boundaries. The limits of being me. We never really focused on the fact that the um, the inner [00:13:30] program of, I know this is a problem. It's not always helpful. It may be setting boundaries and limits on experience that keep us from our full creativity in our full even academic creativity. I think that's our, our greatest achievement is to have developed different ways of entering the space of mine so that whatever your particular interest is or whatever particularly intrigues you, you can, um, you can use that as the, as [00:14:00] the gateway. Speaker 4:By the way, maybe we should announce that we also have an open house scheduled tomorrow at two o'clock 2:00 PM and the address is two two two two Harold Way Berkeley, California nine four seven zero four. Speaker 3:It's between Allston and Kittridge in the downtown Berkeley. So we have the uh, Berkeley high school behind us. We have the public library on one side of us and we have the a y on the other side of us. Speaker 5:You asked about our achievements. I think our achievements are our students. Actually [00:14:30] the people who come, you know, we've really been successful in transforming people's lives and now it's a big boast to say one of the things I always do at the beginning of every term cause we have classes of six is I say to people, what's happened for you? Why you come back basically. And we hear wonderful, wonderful expressions, um, where people say, you know, I had all of these longterm worries and I'm now able to see what they are. Now of course the issues that generate the worrier still there, but the worry itself is seen [00:15:00] that is transformative and they are giving people the ability to generate inner space. It's having that inner spaciousness where you still have the same life. You could still going to have the same issues in your life, but your ability to react to them is totally transformed if you understand your own reactions. Speaker 5:And yet somehow with all of the knowledge in these libraries here, no one ever asked that. No one ever says, well how are you going to react to this? And that's really what we're about doing. And that's true. Whether it's a physical [00:15:30] problem, whether it's an emotional problem, whether it's a economic problem or indeed, whether it's a spiritual problem, it runs right across the gamut of human experience. This, who am I? Who am I actually representing by the statement I, what am I doing when I say I believe something? How come we're so wedded to these fixed positions and try to get into that and understand how we construct the world is really valuable. And so I've been delighted to see how transformed our students are [00:16:00] and they keep coming back. Speaker 2:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators today, producer and a stir luck is speaking to members of the Dharma College community in downtown Berkeley, Robin Cayton, Richard Dixie, [00:16:30] and George [inaudible]. What have been Speaker 3:any challenges in the space? Well, our challenges is letting people know that we're here. I think more than anything, we have a small faculty, so another challenges. Being able to offer enough courses at times that enough times that we can attract busy people to come [00:17:00] to our program. Beyond that, it's really how do we make people aware that we're here. None of us have said yet, but I'm going to say straight out. Our program is not about meditation. It's not about long periods of sitting alone on a cushion. It's truly a wisdom path that is, it's about knowledge. It's about knowing and understanding. You can do the homework right in the middle of your everyday life. In fact, [00:17:30] that's really what's necessary, so you're not isolating yourself from life. That's one of the things that's so terrific about this way of working is that we're bringing awareness or you could say some people say mindfulness of mind. Mindfulness is a, is a big deal now, but it goes beyond mindfulness. It's kind of open awareness. It's kind of understanding of what is that knowing quality of mind itself. Where does knowing come from? What does it mean to know? When you say [00:18:00] to yourself, I know that what's going on inside? Somehow the challenge is how do we make people not see this as, oh, just another meditation school Speaker 4:and we are a nonprofit institution so it's all volunteer driven. Like I volunteer my time, Robin and Richard volunteer their time to teach and run the program. We welcome help all kinds of help. I assume that you are trying to get a little bit younger demographic at this point in time. [00:18:30] How are you, Speaker 3:I'm going to get these busy UC Berkeley and other bay area schools whose lives are very complicated, full of information and media. How are you going to get them interested in able to fit something like this in you do? The Buddha taught four noble truths and the first is the truth of suffering and suffering always does it. How do people come to any kind of transformative path and the answer is almost always because [00:19:00] they're uncomfortable. We simply want to say, if you are uncomfortable, come to Dharma college the time. It's not a huge amount of time. A class a week is an hour and a half of time and now that I'm teaching an online class, people can do do this even from their own dorm room. It's not a huge amount of time. What you need is the motivation and the motivation should be our own curiosity. That happens a lot when we get older, but our own [00:19:30] discomfort when we're younger, that is to say, what am I doing? Why am I here? Am I following the right goals? What do I really want to do? Am I premed because somebody told me in my family that I should go to medical school? Should I really be writing the great American novel? What about this relationship? How do I talk to people? All the ordinary concerns of young people, which we as human beings know very, very well is what drives people [00:20:00] to this kind of work. Sure. Yes. I'm curious, what attracted you being a young student to Dharma College? Speaker 4:I think, I think it's the pursuit of trying to find meaning in what I, what I'm doing. Cause you're doing a lot Phil, making a move. Yeah. So, so, so it really helped me. And that's something which probably I'd love to share with the students who are listening is that, you know, sometimes we are lucky when we find our calling in the career that we want to pursue, but sometimes we have more than one interest and there are a lot of distractions and we go, [00:20:30] we have to course correct as we go along. So in my case, I felt like this time that I spent with them on my college studying really helped me look inward and I decided that, okay, I'm going to be a drop out of the corporate rat race and try to, um, um, uh, find bridge between pursuits that are spiritual, social, creative. That's why I thought documentary, you'd be a great, great medium to tell stories to connect people. And um, while I pursue that, I'm a, I also want to, uh, develop my spiritual learning. So [00:21:00] I feel like my college has helped me course-correct my career and given me a new direction and I, and I feel like it'll help out the students as well to converge. It's almost like looking into your own mind and doing self experiential self counseling. Speaker 3:You see Dharma College in five years. Do you have goals? Is that something that a school like this does? Yes. That's a wonderful question. In five years I'd like to see Dharma College and not only with an expanded program [00:21:30] with a student base that includes college students, perhaps even high school age students as well as as of course older people coming to the end of their lives trying to make sense before we die. We need to, we need to clear some things out. We need to clean the mind. We need to live without regret and we need to die without regret. So in addition to an expanded program that covers all of that, I'd like to see us at the school [00:22:00] conducting conferences, having all sorts of guest speakers coming in and talking about, for instance, language formation in the mind and perception in the mind, which is what Dr. David Presti talked about when he came to Dharma College. Speaker 3:But I'd also like to see people from Dharma College going out into the community. I'd like to see us starting a project that was local as well as global going into the Berkeley community? No, on [00:22:30] our very block we have homeless encampments, so if you had a tangible data project that you could do, take care of, that does make the, it makes you stand out. It one thing, it makes us stand out, but it's also what we're about. We're about people pursuing. What really matters to them is when jurors says meaning, that's what we mean by meaning sort of what matters, what's really important and if we could all clear the mind a little bit, we might be able to find that place. [00:23:00] We call it in the heart, but you might as well say in the belly from which our inspiration comes. Our ability to stick with something, our ability to find what matters and then pursue it. Speaker 3:Richard and I are both dropouts from the corporate world. I also from the regulations, yes, because there's, it's so vapid out there. What about the financial end of that? You know, it's great to drop out if you can drop out. [00:23:30] But p a lot of people can't drop out. Well, Qantas an interesting word, you know, um, there are choices to be made and of course we all make different choices and we have different obligations and, but in our community there are people who have taken vows of poverty. There are people who are quite wealthy and haven't and still live on their own outside of the community and, and contribute what they can. So I think people, [00:24:00] people do it all different kinds of do this kind of work, all different kinds of ways. Sometimes you have someone else who supports you, but sometimes you do part time work, sometimes you do sporadic work, uh, when you can get it and then you don't work for a little while to do this kind of work. Speaker 3:But there's many different ways of, and a lot of the, what we do do as a construct of what we think we should have or do. And so that's where it makes sense. And artists know this way very well in our society. They know [00:24:30] how hard it is to, to what they make. They make choices around that. Well, I'm really happy that you guys made it to this program. And again, tomorrow is your open house and your classes start next week and what is a website people can go to to find out more about this? Well it's www dot Dharma that's d h a r m a hyphen college.com. So it's Dharma Hyphen College Doc. And if people have any questions is are you easily accessible on that website? [00:25:00] Absolutely. The question about how to get the students out there, Robin has mentioned it, but I'll try to also say one sentence. I think it's very easy for students in Berkeley to come and attend or at least try out a few classes because we have six week courses. We have one or four workshops we have now the new online model of teaching. So I think there are a lot of different different ways. If the students come and meet Robin and I'm sure you know there could be a part that could be customized as well. And as we grow, we will [00:25:30] do more and more scheduling of classes that that works with Berkeley students Speaker 5:being in a very strange time, we have this chasm of truth. I love Cole bears, Steven Kolb as Tom truthiness, people are looking for their own truth. Why is that? Because there is this absolute crisis going on where people find life meaningless and they want their own truth to be true. Even if it's not. This is tremendously alarming. Now, the solution to this isn't necessarily to tell them the [00:26:00] truth because what is the truth? At the end of the day, if you don't understand your own perception, you have no truth. You have facts, but they don't make any sense to you. Say you loud up, alienated from facts, and you adopt false news as your truth. This is a tragedy as a tragedy for our culture. It can only be addressed by people taking control of their own experience, and this is not something our culture stresses. Normally people only do this when they're psychologically unhappy because it's considered to be something [00:26:30] that unhappy people do, but actually all people should do it. Speaker 5:Otherwise what will happen is things will happen and they won't go well and you won't know why. And that just leads to confusion. So we're addressing a key question and the question really is authenticity. What makes something authentically true? What makes something actually worth doing? And you know, we all adopt these ideas. I want to live a life that's valuable. I want to live a life that's going to get me somewhere, but without an understanding of our own belief structure and what makes that real, [00:27:00] we're never going to get anywhere with it. And one can see young people coming through this incredible university going off into the world with great dreams. Yet we all know 99.99% of them are going to land up at the end of their lives saying, well that was okay, but did I really go anywhere? And this is what's happening to our culture as such, you know, we're living in a period of incredible, unparalleled scientific discovery, tremendous economic wealth. Speaker 5:And yet there is a crisis of truth. It's a bizarre problem. And Dying Dharma College is absolutely [00:27:30] addressing it head on. And arguably when you look at the schools of meditation that exist, they're not, they're talking about giving people a technique to escape reality. But what we really want to be doing is addressing reality. We're way more active than passive. We're actually trying to encourage direct inquiry and to encourage people to take control of their experience and really ask that question and not just be philosophical about it and try and be clever with concepts, but directly asked yourself that question. [00:28:00] And this is where you go beyond analysis into something much deeper. Speaker 3:And also we want to see people stay in the world, not withdraw from the world, but absolutely stay in the world in whatever professional endeavor they want to do, but do so from an authentic position. Do so. Being able to ask the questions that really need to be asked within their professional endeavor, not the questions that everybody else is asking. So I better ask them to, or the questions where you only get funding. So I better [00:28:30] just ask the questions where, where someone's giving funding, but actually the questions that need to be asked for the world people get inspired. But it only lasts for a very short period of time. As soon as they come up against obstacles or challenges in the world, they lose their inspiration or they lose their self confidence or they lose their ability to understand how to work with whatever it is that's coming up as a challenge. Speaker 3:[00:29:00] Challenges are, are, are constant in our universe. Other people, um, lack of money, lack of funding, annoying people, annoying sounds, everything. So how do you work with that? Not Against that. How do you not be in despair about our political situation, but consider it to be a major challenge that calls out the best of our creativity, not the worst of our [00:29:30] emotional life, which we already know. We know how to be angry. That's, there's not no trick to that. But what we don't know is how to turn that energy into something creatively successful and effective to actually change the world. That's different. You've been listening to method to the madness, Speaker 2:a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. [00:30:00] You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. Tune in next Friday at noon. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Kris Hayashi is the executive director of the Transgender Law Center, one of the leading trans civil rights organizations in the country. As more Americans support trans causes, Oakland-based TLC provides legal support for activists across the U.S.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. Speaker 2:You listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators today, producer Anna Stir La speaks with Chris Hayashi, the executive director of the transgender law center, one [00:00:30] of the largest organizations in the country advancing the rights of transgender and gender nonconforming people. Speaker 1:So welcome to the show, Chris Hayashi. Thank you for having me. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. I'm Chris Hayashi. I'm the executive director at the transgender law center. Uh, we're based [00:01:00] in Oakland, California, but we also have an office in Atlanta, Georgia. We're a national organization, um, the largest in the country actually advancing the rights of trans and gender nonconforming people through litigation policy advocacy, public education and movement building. And it used to be mostly a California based organization. Right? Right. The organization started back in 2002 as a California focused organization. We actually started as a project of the National Center for Lesbian Rights. And then [00:01:30] the organization has just grown tremendously, um, particularly in the last couple of years. So now we definitely consider ourselves a national organization. We work with Trans and gender nonconforming people all over the country, but particularly prioritizing regions that have, uh, less access to resources, um, like the south, the Midwest and the southwest. Speaker 1:What are some of your more recent cases? Well, we have a case. Um, we're representing a young transgender boy who lives in Wisconsin. [00:02:00] Um, his name is ash and you know, very similar to the case of Gavin Grimm and other trans boy that has been in the media a lot, um, in the recent period. But, uh, you know, ash, uh, had been going to school, um, you know, using the restroom, uh, the boys room with all the other boys in his school, no problem. And then the school changed the policy, um, and was going to make him use a different restroom than all the other students and they actually took it a step further and [00:02:30] we're going to require all of the trench, gender students in the school to wear green wristbands so they could better monitor and police their bathroom use. So we're representing ash, um, in his case, uh, that was just heard recently. Speaker 1:Um, and we'll, we should be hearing the outcome of that very soon. [inaudible] and have you had any, uh, I think one thing we want to know is have you had any major victories so far that you've like really been building on? Definitely, definitely. I'm [00:03:00] about, I think it was about a year ago. So we represented to a transgender woman, uh, who were incarcerated, who are one of them who is still incarcerated here in the state of California. And you know, transgender people, uh, face a tremendous amount of discrimination, um, and lack of access to educational opportunities as well as employment. And so as a result, many transgender people end up re relying [00:03:30] on street economies, survival economies to survive, which means that, um, a large number of transgender people, particularly transgender woman, particularly transgender women of color, end up incarcerated, end up in the prison system and in the prison system faced tremendous abuse, violence, and harassment. Speaker 1:And so the transgender law center, along with, um, other organizations in the state have been fighting for some time for the rights of transgender people who are incarcerated. And we represented two transgender women who [00:04:00] were incarcerated here in California, um, for them to be able to get access to the healthcare that they need, um, the healthcare that they deserve as transgender people. And we were able to, um, successfully win those cases. And, uh, a, the one of the transgender woman was able to get her surgery here in California for the first time ever. Wow. And so one thing I want to know is, you know, obviously anybody could be trans [00:04:30] and so how does your organization kind of overlap with other advocacy works? For example, integration? Right. Definitely. I'm, and I think that is a really good question. Uh, particularly given the times we are in now, the, at the transgender law center for a number of years, we've been fighting for the rights of immigrants for transgender immigrants. Speaker 1:We've been part of national campaigns like the, not one more campaign. Um, and you know, in the recent period since [00:05:00] Trump was elected to office, uh, you know, we, he ran on a very clear platform of hate against many different communities from people of Color to immigrants, to women, to people with disabilities, to the people in the LGBT community. And so we were very clear, um, that one of the first communities that he would target would be, uh, the immigrant community. And we know that transgender immigrants, um, because many transgender immigrants, [00:05:30] uh, due to lack of access to employment opportunities and income, um, rely on survival and street economies to survive that many transgender immigrants would have criminal records. So it would be among some of the communities, uh, first targeted and most vulnerable under a Trump administration. So we've been working with immigrant rights organizations here in California and across the country to advocate for the rights of all immigrants, but particularly raising up the conditions that transgender immigrants face. Speaker 1:So, [00:06:00] um, one thing that we know is that for transgender immigrant to be in detention means facing horrendous abuse, violence, and harassment while transgender women make up one in 500, uh, transgender. Uh, one in 500, uh, people in detention, they make up one in five reported cases of sexual assault. Um, and those are only the ones that are reported. Only the ones that we know about. We also know that for a transgender immigrant [00:06:30] to face deportation, um, you know, in many cases means returning to her home country that they had originally fled facing violence. Um, you know, and in some cases even possible death. So for the transgender law center, particularly in the recent period, uh, it has been a real priority to focus on the needs of transgender immigrants. So we actually just this January launched a project called the transgender immigrant defense effort, uh, tied for shorts. Speaker 1:And [00:07:00] how has the sort of new age of Trump, how has that affected your organization, you know, and how you approach advocacy? Definitely. Um, you know, we have been hearing from transgender people across the country, uh, non binary gender nonconforming people. Uh, you know, similar to many other communities that are being targeted by this administration. That there is just an incredible amount of fear about [00:07:30] what is happening and what will happen under this administration. And we've already heard about increases in hate, violence and harassment that our community is facing across the country. And you know, for the transgender community, for gender nonconforming people, even before the Trump administration, our community was already in crisis already facing incredible violence, um, harassment and hate all across the country. 2016 [00:08:00] we saw the most reported cases of transgender murders that we've seen. And those are only the ones that we know about. Speaker 1:And you know, we're only, what, a couple months into 2017 and there have already been eight murders of transgender woman, um, all transgender woman of color. So, you know, our community was already facing incredible violence and discrimination and under a Trump administration, we have just seen that grow and increase and know that moving forward, [00:08:30] um, we're likely to see more of that as he rolls out more and more policies that are really rooted in, um, in hate and, uh, discrimination. You know, there's kind of been more attention paid to transgender issues, but then there's also kind of been that same push back. So how has it been kind of being an advocate for the trans community, a legal advocate during this time? Um, yeah. I mean the increase in visibility that has happened over the last couple of years, uh, is really [00:09:00] unprecedented. You know, I, 10 years ago would not have thought there would be a moment where we had have Laverne Cox on the cover of Time magazine, you know, or Janet mock on the bestseller list that was not even anywhere in anyone's thoughts about what would happen with the Trans Movement. Speaker 1:And so all of that has been incredible and just raise the visibility for transgender people and for the issues we face. However, the other reality of that is that while there's been this increase in visible and in popular culture [00:09:30] that the majority of transgender people, the majority of transgender young foreign people of color continue to struggle to survive on a daily basis. You know, we have four times the poverty rate of the general population. That's even more so for transgender people of color. Um, high rates of unemployment, lack of access to health care. The reality is that our community has already been in crisis. And then in 2016 we saw this [00:10:00] onslaught of anti-trans legislation in a way that we had not seen before in the form of these, uh, bathroom ban bills, which really are about criminalizing transgender people simply for trying to use the bathroom. Speaker 1:And we saw that in states across the country in ways we just hadn't seen before. And we were successful in defeating almost all of those. I mean, many people have heard about HB two in North Carolina and that particular piece of legislation that moved forward. But [00:10:30] you know, the other piece of it is that while we've had this increase in visibility and wall, our community continues to struggle on a daily basis. What is also true is that there are incredible trans and gender nonconforming leaders all across the country who have been organizing for decades to fight for the rights of transgender people, to create safe spaces within communities where people are able to access healthcare, able to access [00:11:00] services or even just like build community with each other and have that type of support from transgender people in North Carolina to trans and gender nonconforming youth, um, all across the country who have been really advocating speaking out and fighting for it rights. Speaker 1:And can you talk a little bit about yourself and your activist journey? How, how did, how did you arrive to your place today? Sure. Um, you know, I actually, uh, [00:11:30] so, you know, I grew up in Seattle, Washington. I was always this very gender nonconforming, um, Asian kid and definitely, um, I mean this would have been in the like, you know, eighties or so, um, faced a good amount of harassment in school, um, for being gender nonconforming. Um, and you know, so for, from a very young age, I understood that the world was not set up for me to survive. So I've always carried that experience into [00:12:00] my organizing and into my activism. And I first really got involved in organizing here in California, uh, in the probably early nineties, um, as a part of a lot of the youth, uh, particularly youth of color organizing that was happening at that time around, uh, prop one 87, which was an anti-immigrant initiative prop 21, which was an anti youth initiative. And there was just this incredible, um, upswell of particularly [00:12:30] youth led, uh, organizing that was happening in that period in response to the types of attacks that were happening here in the state. And felt very fortunate to be a part of that and really took from that, uh, real belief in bias force organizing in that when organizing around injustices that young people are facing, that young people need to be, um, leading those, those campaigns, leading those fights and have really taken that by us for us, principal [00:13:00] into all of my work. Speaker 3:Ever since then. Speaker 2:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators today. And a sterling is speaking with the executive director of the transgender law center. Chris [inaudible], Speaker 1:[00:13:30] you yourself a lawyer? I am not a lawyer actually. I do work with a lot of lawyers, but I'm not a lawyer. Um, you know, which all speaks to the work of the trench under law center. Um, you know, we definitely are a legal organization, but we also do policy advocacy and we do movement building and leadership development. Um, you know, really pulling from a wide range of strategies to address the needs, um, and fight for the rights of our community. [00:14:00] And then as part of that also like outreach and education so that folks are informed of what rights they actually have. Definitely. Definitely. Actually this past year, um, in California, we partnered with, uh, equality California oh, as well as a number of other organizations here in the state, like the GSA network, which is also based here in the bay area. Um, to launch a public education campaign called Transform California. Speaker 1:Um, which was really about raising public understanding [00:14:30] and consciousness about trans and gender nonconforming people here in the state. Um, and really building up, uh, a statewide infrastructure infrastructure that would advocate and fight for the rights of Trans and gender nonconforming people. Particularly in a time when we were seeing, um, other states, uh, launch anti-trans initiatives and campaigns, um, that here California, we would seek to model, um, you know, model something different. And how has the transgender law center then, you know, we talked a little [00:15:00] bit about how it was founded and how, uh, it's gone national, but how has kind of its own mission and what it does day to day kind of changed since it was founded? Sure. Um, you know, when the transgender law center first started, uh, you know, it was with I think, two paid staff and a handful of volunteers and you know, out, it was at a time where we had nowhere near the legal protections that [00:15:30] we have in place now or the policy wins that we have, particularly here in California. Speaker 1:And the organization was really about like, how do we, uh, when some legal rights for the Trans Community, particularly here in California, um, but also started from a place of doing some community organizing and, uh, movement building here in the state. So bringing Trans Gender people together to say what are the needs of the communities facing and did like a needs assessment and a survey. Um, [00:16:00] and really offered also access to legal services to transgender people. We, um, from the beginning and still have a helpline, um, where transgender people can reach out to us and get access to legal information and resources. Um, you know, so started as a really small shop, California based, really focused on focusing on advancing the rights of transgender people here in California at a time. Um, when we, you know, honestly had made very little progress as far as [00:16:30] legal and policy rights. Speaker 1:You know, I mean this was a, you know, 15 years ago. Um, you know, fast forward to now when, you know, as a result of the work of the transgender law center and other organizations here in the state, you know, we're in a place and nationally we're in a place where we have, um, have made advances as far as the legal rights of transgender people. Um, for example, the transgender law center, uh, won the case of Mia Macy, which was one of the first times that it was, [00:17:00] uh, made clear that transgender people are protected under title seven from employment discrimination. Um, you know, there have been cases across the country that have made clear that we are protected, uh, under title nine that transgender students are protected from discrimination, um, in schools and in education systems. And you know, here in California there are strong policies around access to health care for transgender people. Speaker 1:Um, so there have been these major wins. And so also [00:17:30] tlcs work in the last, you know, I would say five years is years or so. One has grown to be national, so has moved beyond California. Um, and also has really looked, uh, much more strongly than before at how do we really raise up and prioritize the communities that are most vulnerable, that are most targeted by discrimination, harassment and violence. And so [00:18:00] that's led us to open our first office in Atlanta, Georgia in partnership with a group called southerners on new ground. It's led us to launch our detention project with spe, which specifically focuses on transgender people who are incarcerated, whether it's in immigration detention or prisons and jails. It's let us so launch a project called truth, which we do in partnership with the GSE network, um, which is a trans and gender nonconforming youth led movement building and storytelling [00:18:30] project, um, based nationally and also does work here in California. Speaker 1:So it's led us to really launch some projects that specifically raise up the visibility, leadership and analysis of particular communities within the transgender community. Is there anything else like the transgender law center elsewhere in the u s so we are, we are definitely the largest, uh, transgender, uh, organization. Um, and as far as focus specifically on legal rights, [00:19:00] uh, that is specifically focused on the transgender community. Um, you know, probably the closest is our, our, uh, sister organization in DC, the national center for transgender equality. Um, they also do a, some amount of legal work, uh, but they also do a lot of policy, uh, federal policy in particular. And then a lot of the larger legal organizations, uh, like the ACLU, Lambda legal, uh, they do, they have specific kind of focuses [00:19:30] on transgender rights. Um, but as far as an organization that's specifically focused on illegal rights of transgender people, um, we are one of very few, actually. Speaker 1:There's, there's an organization in New York City, um, called Tilda, the transgender legal defense and education fund that also specifically focuses on, um, transgender legal rights. So, you know, it's not, it's not a lot. Um, though, I mean, I do think it's important to raise up that wall. There's only, probably a handful [00:20:00] of like larger trans focused organizations that there are hundreds of smaller grassroots trans groups and organizations that are led by transgender people led by transgender people of color. Uh, you know, that most often like don't have paid staff, um, don't have a lot of resource, but have been a building community and organizing for the rights for, for many, many years. Looking forward towards the future, what achievements, what [00:20:30] goals do you hope for the community? Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, so I'll answer that in two ways. One is, is very long term. Speaker 1:I mean, ultimately we are fighting for a world in which everyone, um, is able to live, survive and thrive, has access to healthcare and housing and food and education. Um, you know, ultimately we are looking for a world looking [00:21:00] towards a world where, uh, we all have what we need, um, to thrive. And you know, that is probably a very, very, a longterm goal, uh, particularly given the times we are in right now. But that's ultimately what we're, we're fighting for. And then in the more immediate, uh, for the transgender law center, you know, for, for many, many years, the transgender community has been under-resourced, um, [00:21:30] has had lack of access to, um, whether it's funding or um, you know, organizational infrastructure. And so, you know, we are really looking to build up a national movement led by Trans and gender nonconforming people who are fighting for our rights across the country, whether it's in South Dakota or Atlanta, Georgia or here in the bay area that is really, uh, led [00:22:00] by Trans and gender nonconforming people and center is the most vulnerable and most targeted members of our community. What would you say to a young person now who's considering going into law school going into advocacy work? What would you, what advice would you give them? Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I, I would say to a young person looking to get part of looking to be part of movement, a movement work that, you know, um, [00:22:30] I, I feel like w what I, the kind of most important experiences and lessons I've learned have just been from doing it have just been from getting involved in organizing has been from getting involved in organizations that I believed in, that I was passionate about, that were about fighting for the rights and safety of my community, [00:23:00] my family. Um, you know, people that I love and care about. And it's from actually that, uh, involvement and engagement that I've learned, um, learned the most important lessons, um, in, in movement work. If there's a, a young person who's facing harassment, um, whether it's in their school or, um, by their, at their job, uh, you know, that it's important, particularly here in California, in the bay area, there are so many incredible organizations [00:23:30] that have resources and support. Speaker 1:Um, you know, from the, the GSA network, which is here in the bay area and work specifically with, uh, LGBT young people to, uh, you know, the Pacific Center here in Berkeley to the SF LGBT center. There's incredible infrastructure here in California for anyone who's needing support. And so I think the most important thing would be to reach out, whether it's to one of these organizations, whether it's to a friend or, um, [00:24:00] you know, someone who is supportive in this, their school or job and really getting connected to, to resources and support. Any contact info that we can share. Sure. Um, if you're looking to get, find out more information about the transgender law center, you can go to our website. It's transgender law center.org. That's probably the best way. And then closing philosophy. Uh, what is your philosophy in life? Um, yeah, that's a, that's a good question. Speaker 1:[00:24:30] Um, you know, I have been part of movements for racial and economic justice probably since I was about 19. So at that point, it's over 20 years ago. And for me it's always been about, uh, uh, deeply felt a need to fight for a world in which [00:25:00] I could live and survive and thrive and which, uh, other people that I care about and other people that I'm in community with, um, you know, also also can do so. And so for me, uh, a lot of that has been about, um, keeping strong to that disbelief. And in that we can build, uh, a world that is different and a world in which, uh, [00:25:30] you know, we all have what we need, but in which we also can, uh, can do more than just survive but also thrive. Um, you know, so one of the things that I, I haven't spoken about that I think is important to raise up is that transgender people in this country face incredibly high rates of HIV and aids. Speaker 1:And it's something that actually doesn't get talked about a lot and doesn't get a lot of visibility. The reality is actually that for [00:26:00] a black transgender woman, the lifetime risk of HIV is one and two. So a couple of years ago, largely through the leadership of our senior strategist, Cecilia Chung, who is a longtime leader here in the trench gender community in the bay area, as well as nationally launched a project called positively trans, which is led by and for transgender people living with HIV. Uh, the majority of the folks in leadership are transgender [00:26:30] woman of color or transgender people of color. And so there's a national advisory board that, uh, launched and implemented a national needs assessment. Um, one of the first of its kind to really raise up the needs of transgender people living with HIV. And what I think has been incredible about that project is that they then took that data and have gone to national, uh, strategy sessions to national meetings, setting HIV [00:27:00] policy and have raised up the needs of transgender people and have really been able to inform and shift, um, national HIV policy to better meet the needs of transgender people here in the u s um, you know, and one of the other things that I didn't, uh, speak as much about is also so, you know, because over the past in 2016, we saw this onslaught of anti-trans legislation across the country. Speaker 1:Um, what we saw [00:27:30] again and again in, in states facing, uh, anti-trans legislation is that there would be a transgender leaders in that state who'd been there forever, like small groups without a lot of resources. And they would be fighting to get a seat at the table, um, in leader leading campaigns to fight back against these anti-trans bills that were about their lives and their communities. So one of the things that we did at the transgender law center in partnership with, [00:28:00] uh, a couple of different organizations including the ACLU and a project called the trend justice funding project and GSA network, is we launched this National Training Institute, um, where Trans and gender nonconforming leaders, particularly from the Midwest, the south and the southwest, uh, were able to come and get training on organizing, on speaking to the media, on communications, um, on coalition building. And we were able to train up a cohort of about 60 trans and gender nonconforming leaders [00:28:30] from around the country, all of whom are really on the front lines of fighting back against, um, anti-trans campaigns in the state, their states, whether it's legislative or ballot initiatives. Um, and what we saw again and again is that for so many of the leaders who came to the trains, it was the first time they've ever had access to any type of organizing or comms or media training, which I think really just speaks to the lack of resource, the lack of investment that has happened [00:29:00] for many, many years as far as the, the Trans and gender nonconforming community, uh, here in the u s thank you so much for stopping by Chris. Yes. Great. Thank you. Speaker 3:[inaudible] Speaker 2:you've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay [00:29:30] area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. Tune in next Friday. Okay. Speaker 3:[inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hilary Abell, co-founder of Oakland based startup Project Equity, talks about her organization's mission to help small business owners secure their company's future by transferring ownership to the employees.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to cake, a l x Berkeley 90.7 Fam, university of California listener supported radio. And this is method to the madness coming at you from the Public Affairs Department here at Calyx celebrating the innovative spirit of the bay area. I'm your host Ali Nasar. And today we have Hillary [00:00:30] at bell with us. Hi Hillary. How are you? Hi Lee. I'm doing great. And Hillary is the cofounder of project equity. Um, it's a a, is it a startup or as relatively Speaker 2:we are a startup. We'll have our third anniversary and a couple of weeks. Speaker 1:Third Anniversary. Yeah, based in Oakland. That's right. And a really interesting idea we want to get into. And every, uh, cofounder I have on the show, Hillary, I usually start by asking, uh, the same question, which is, uh, you're someone who started an organization from scratch [00:01:00] because you saw an issue. So can you give us the problem statement? What is project equity trying to solve? Speaker 2:We're aiming to address the growing income and wealth gap between the rich and the poor across this country in particular starting in the bay area and in other regions where we're already working. I personally have been working with employee ownership and worker cooperatives for the last 13 years intensively. And, and going back further than that, and I know from my own experience that there are powerful [00:01:30] force for improving job quality and building wealth for low wage workers. And my co founder Alison Lin gain has decades of experience in larger scale social ventures for profit and nonprofit. And we share this passion for addressing the wealth gap, the racial wealth gap and income inequality. And when we realize that my experience in worker cooperative development and employee ownership and her experience with larger scale social ventures, we're a perfect combination. We decided to launch something new to take on this problem. Speaker 1:Okay. Well it's a really fascinating [00:02:00] idea. I'm really excited that you're here today. Really speaks to me. And before we get into kind of what it, what project we does and what a work we're cooperative is. Can you, uh, just give us a little bit about your background. How did you and your journey come to looking at and saw seeing this problem that you want to solve? Speaker 2:Sure. So, so I started out right after college as a teacher in the inner city and that wasn't something I was able to do for a long time. I wasn't great at classroom management, but I did get to see urban poverty up close, get to see the resilience and the amazing [00:02:30] kids that were in those communities. Um, so that was one of my first, um, influences on why I care about this problem. I then worked for a worker owned company called equal exchange. And I got into that not because I was interested in business to be honest. I wanted to be on the front lines of social change. But I came to equal exchange through some community organizing I had been doing in relation to the wars in Central America. And when the war in El Salvador ended, um, equal exchange approached me and others at organization I was working for [00:03:00] at the time about using coffee and fair trade coffee in particular to help promote peace in El Salvador after the war. Speaker 2:And so through that and through the fair trade mission, I got into using business as a tool for social change. And I was in my sort of mid twenties and learned how to be a salesperson, something I never thought I would do. I learned how to work with farmer partners in Latin America who were organized in cooperatives and also got elected to the board of directors of that growing company of equal exchange as a worker [00:03:30] owner. So I also experienced incredible learning. I got to sit next to leaders of larger scale, socially responsible companies on that board and learn about business and how business can be a force for good. So that opened my perspective and helped me see how cooperatives can change the world. And from there I did a bunch of work in the nonprofit sector related to fair trade and other international issues and then found myself working with a local organization in Oakland called wages. Speaker 2:And we were building cooperatives and work around businesses [00:04:00] from the ground up here in the bay area. And that's, I was there for eight years and we saw incredible impact from the work we were doing. We built five eco-friendly home cleaning businesses that were owned by about a hundred immigrant women from Mexico and Central America. Wow. How cool. It was really exciting and I saw an incredible change from the time I started there in 2003 to when I left in 2011 when I first got there, we were doing an impact study that one of our foundation funders had helped us set up and we found that one of the cooperatives [00:04:30] was experiencing 40% increases in household income among their members. Wow. And that was very inspiring. That really mattered Speaker 1:to cut the middleman basically. Like they, they were getting all the income straight to them, Speaker 2:the workers. That's right. And they also built and owned together an infrastructure that would support them growing the company and working full time instead of working part time. Okay. So it was a combination of sort of better hourly pay and full time work and stability instead of just kind of casual variable schedules. And then they [00:05:00] got health insurance as well. And so that inspired us to try to scale up that model. We built a larger cooperative business in Oakland that eventually got to have 35 women [inaudible] owning it and then built a new one in San Francisco as well. And through the one in Oakland, we saw that eventually their household incomes were increasing by 80% wow. So went from 40 to 80 and the good trend. Yeah. Yeah. That was a great, it was a great trend and not all employee on businesses will have, you know, that degree of increase in, in [00:05:30] household income. But in general they do create better quality jobs. And so when I saw that [inaudible] I just knew that I wanted to do more of it and wanted to make the business model of employee ownership more accessible to to more low wage workers. Speaker 1:Yeah. What a, what a fascinating journey that you've been on. And thanks for sharing. Uh, we're talking to Hillary Ebell. She's a cofounder of project equity here on method to the madness on KLX Berkeley. Um, and before we go further into what project equity [00:06:00] does, I'd love to just take a step back and have you define for us what is a worker owned cooperative Speaker 2:project? Equity works with employee on businesses in different forms. And the one that we've started with and work most closely with is the worker owned cooperative. The definition of a Co op is a business that's owned and controlled by its members. So in the case of an employee owned cooperative, it's the people who work there who own the business and control it democratically by having the majority of seats on [00:06:30] the board of directors. So that's kind of the fundamental definition. There are actually seven cooperative principles that govern consumer cooperatives, farmer cooperatives, credit unions, and other kinds of cooperatives that are actually much more prevalent than worker owned cooperatives in this country. So there are seven common principles Speaker 1:and what, what is the, is there a governing body for cooperators? What are those seven principles? Who, who owns those? Speaker 2:There's something called the international cooperative alliance, which is global and does have kind of regional networks [00:07:00] through different parts of the world and has, you know, subsets for the different types of cooperatives. Um, and then there's also the model of employee stock ownership plans, also known as Aesop's, which is a u s specific model that is more commonly practiced than worker cooperatives. And we also see that as having a great role to play in this movement. And it's something that we're looking forward to working with directly as well. Speaker 1:So, um, let's talk a little bit more about the aim of project equity. Um, so you've given us some generalities around, um, your background and, and, uh, [00:07:30] the power that you've seen of unlocking business for, for, uh, for good. But it seems when I was doing some research on your company or your organization, you guys are, um, really focused on transferring, uh, companies and who are currently owned by an owner and a different ownership structure and, uh, having them go through a transition as opposed to starting something from scratch. That's right. You tell, tell me more about why that's the strategy you guys pursued. Speaker 2:That was a very explicit decision [00:08:00] for us in our first year. Um, 2014, we were fortunate enough to have a grant that allowed us to research different pathways to scale as we like to refer to them. So we looked at doing scale oriented startups and we looked at converting successful existing businesses to employee ownership. And we did choose the ladder. We were one of the first movers and an early champion of this strategy, which is actually now, um, being, uh, uh, uptaken has been taken up by, um, actors around the country and we're part of a national [00:08:30] collaborative and a growing movement that's supporting transitioning successful businesses. And there's two reasons that project equity saw this opportunity. One is that demographically the huge shift that we're going through as a country and as a world actually with baby boomer retirements is incredibly significant. We tend to hear a lot about it in terms of the impact on health care and the impact on social security and things like that. It also is already having a big impact on our small business community, about [00:09:00] 50% actually a little bit more nationally of privately held businesses are owned by baby boomers here in the bay area. Project equity has just done some original research that we released back in February that shows that 45% of privately held businesses that employ people in the bay area are owned by baby boomers. 45% 45% Speaker 1:present of, of jobs. Overall jobs are small businesses that provide jobs, Speaker 2:small businesses that provide jobs. Okay. That's right. And it's actually 63,600 [00:09:30] businesses in the nine bay area counties. Wow. And it accounts for about 626,000 employees and almost 150 billion in total sales. 626,000 Speaker 1:employees and there's about six or 7 million people in the bay area. That's right. So 10% of the area is employed by baby boomer businesses that are, that are going to end at some point unless they figure out what to do. Speaker 2:Absolutely. So, so we've been [00:10:00] asking ourselves the question and asking dozens, hundreds of other people this question for the last two years, what's going to happen to these businesses? So it's been known for some time. The SBA actually did a study back in 2004 that showed that only 15% of family owned businesses will pass on to the next generation. And it goes down to about 5% when you go to the third generation. So this classic concept that we have of a business being handed on to a son or a daughter just isn't happening for the vast majority of businesses. So what happened? Speaker 1:It's to them [00:10:30] first. It's only 15% goes to the first or second generation. The other 85% do they die? What happened? Speaker 2:Yes. Um, they, many of them do die. And that's what we're concerned about is there a lot of really healthy, vibrant businesses that contribute so much to our local economies and to the unique nature of our communities that that could actually close. Um, and many are closing already. We're hearing about it every day in the bay area. Um, some many will also get bought out and often that'll be by a large corporation or by an out-of-state buyer and out of area buyer. And usually when there is [00:11:00] an acquisition like that, there's a lot of change that happens. So some people will get jobs in the parent company, but there are always a lot of layoffs and sometimes the companies are even shut down. And you know, just the parts are the like you're like, you would take parts of an old car, you know, they'll take the assets of the business and the client list, but not maintain the role in the community. Sure. Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, we're talking to Hillary Ebell. She's the, uh, Co founder of project equity, a startup based in Oakland that is helping companies transform themselves to uh, uh, [00:11:30] an employee owned cooperatives. Um, so I wanted to ask you about something I like to ask a lot of entrepreneurs like yourself. Um, once you had the idea, it sounds like you have a lot of experience that's led you to see this problem and really and passion around solving a major kind of social issue that we have. Um, but there's a big leap between seeing the issue and then actually starting something. So can you [00:12:00] take us through that process of how you had the spark of like, I got this idea, you and your partner, but then how did you actually get this thing off the ground? You mentioned a grant, like how did you get to that point? Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, so Alison Lynn gain and I spent probably two years meeting weekly or biweekly developing the idea, thinking about who we wanted to talk to about it, where we could potentially get some funding to get going, what we would want the program to look like, what we would actually do, how we would contribute to scale, which really was our [00:12:30] guiding guiding principle. The reason to do something together was this combination of scale and the value of employee ownership and really trying to scale that up for the benefit of, of low wage workers. So we spent a couple of years meeting casually and planning and there were two things that helped us turn it into something that we could pay ourselves a little bit to do and really start focusing our time on. One was that we had a first investors, so there's nothing like a seed investor. Um, my can again of give something back office products, which is an Oakland based, [00:13:00] um, national company, one of the original certified B Corp's and socially responsible businesses. Speaker 2:I'm sure in the country. We buy all our products from them and my work, they're terrific. They're a great company and Mike is a real visionary, has been involved in workforce development locally and also in, in socially responsible business. And we knew Mike and we sat down with him one day and told him what we wanted to do and asked if he would support us with a seed grant. And when he said yes, that was a big boost to our confidence and to our, just our gut [00:13:30] sense that this was something that others were gonna want to support. And then there was a unique program called one bay area. Uh, it was, and they had an economic prosperity pilot program that they did, um, back in 2014 and to be honest, we got very lucky because this was a very unique grant opportunity, one time only as part of this five year initiative called Plan Bay area. Speaker 2:And as a startup, we never would've been able to get it, but we were able to partner with an established organization, [00:14:00] the East Bay Community Law Center and with another partner called the sustainable economies law center. And we designed a program to start, um, an initial community-based training program for worker cooperatives that we called the worker co-op academy. And then also to do research on strategies for scale. So when I talk about Alison and I having looked really closely at what industries we would work in, what would it take to do larger scale startups versus this conversion strategy that grant funded us to do that research. [00:14:30] And when we looked at the conversion strategy, we found that there was a lot of interest. There was a lot of curiosity among business owners. We had a lot of conversations, did some focus groups, and we also did some research on companies that had between 20 and 200 employees in Oakland in particular. And found that there were a handful of industries where there were a good number of, at that size, employing the workforce that we wanted to support. Um, so we could see that there were a lot of opportunities even just in the city of Oakland for businesses that would [00:15:00] potentially benefit from employee ownership. Speaker 1:[inaudible] well, so it sounds like it was a very measured kind of process. Right. We're definitely the sort of, um, logical types of entrepreneurs. And I know a lot of people just go more by Guy, but yeah. Yeah, we got very lucky with that first name later. That's not your style. Not as much as most entrepreneurs. Well, um, you know, one thing I wanted to ask you about, which is, so why I'm very passionate about the topic is I believe in a very, I think it's a very American concept of [00:15:30] ownership and the power of ownership. And I think that's one of the central thesis that you're, uh, basing your organization on. So tell, tell me a little bit about your take on how important ownership is for workers. Speaker 2:It's a game changing concept. Um, and I can talk first maybe from my own experience. I mentioned that when I went to work at equal exchange as a 22 or 23 year old, I wasn't interested in business. It wasn't [00:16:00] anything that was on my mind. Um, and I didn't think of myself as entrepreneurial in any way, but when I got inside of this business that was co owned by all of the worker owners, I started to be able to, to build muscles and get exposed to business concepts and um, business experiences that inspired me and that built my skills. And then getting to work on strategy and financial management and analysis and things like that by being on the board and not just being a front line sales and producer relations person, which [00:16:30] was my day job. Um, I got very passionate about it and learn so much. Speaker 2:So I saw the, how one can build skills through shared ownership and at that time I never would have started something. Um, and in fact, in, in my previous role at wages, I was, was part of the startup team for the two worker cooperatives that we started during my time there. But until project equity never started something on my own. And of course I didn't do it on my own. It was having a great co-founder that I think has been a secret to success for us. And actually for most startups they say that [00:17:00] it's much better to co-found than to found on your own. Yeah. Um, so, so that was my own experience that through shared ownership I was able to become an entrepreneur and I do see that with low wage workers as well. So if you think of, um, women from Mexico and Central America that I worked with in the green home cleaning businesses, uh, this woman named Clementine F for example, who when she started with the cooperative, she was working two jobs and was having to have her older son feed her other three kids, [00:17:30] you know, hamburgers that she would pick up at McDonald's before she ran off to the second job. Speaker 2:Just a very, very hard life. She was a single mom and when the cooperative got going, she was able to leave one of those jobs, go full time with the co op and eventually it became just a really awesome skilled, cleaner using green techniques, very cutting edge. At the time, this was in the mid 1990s, there were green cleaning companies. Um, and then she got trained to, to train other women and served on the board of the cooperative and had that sense of ownership. She, she actually shared literally in the ownership [00:18:00] financially, but she also developed that sense of ownership and leadership roles through being a co owner of a business. So that's another example and I do see it even with the companies that we're working with right now. So for example, there's a pizzeria in San Jose with 33 workers that is about to complete their transition to become a worker cooperative. Speaker 2:We've been working with them for a year and we work most closely with a core team of the two owners and five of the employees who will become co-owners. And as we've taught them about how to read financial statements, [00:18:30] how to understand the finances of this actual business that many of them have been working in for five or 10 years, believe it or not, in a high turnover industry. So this is a company that is much beloved by its employees already, but they go that extra step of taking that ownership perspective. And the owner, Kirk Vartan has actually told us that his conversations with as employees, he's always gotten their input on hiring for example. And he's found that people are starting to have a different conversation with him when we asked when he asked for that input. So they'll say, you know, [00:19:00] this person seems really cool, nice person. But when I think like an owner, I'm not sure I would hire them to work here for x and y reason. So already we're seeing, they haven't even become a cooperative yet, but already that sense of ownership is coming in. Yeah. Speaker 1:Which creates value for the company because people care more. So that's a great example is if you hire the wrong person, it sets a company back in so many different ways. So if you have the actual employees care about who you're hiring because they feel like it's going to hurt their pocketbook, [00:19:30] then it's a very powerful motivating force to do good for the company. Yeah. Um, so you know, we're talking to Hillary Bell. She is the cofounder of project equity, a startup based in Oakland, and it helps companies transition, um, to being worker owned. Tell us, talk a little bit about the actual process of transition. What does, what does that mean? What, how does it work and where do they, where does point a, where are they start or when did they end up at point B? What, what, what changes [inaudible] Speaker 2:it's a really interesting process. I'm, I'm finding [00:20:00] it fascinating and really exciting to, to work on multiple layers with these companies. The first thing we do with a company is to help them assess the, the fit for their company of employee ownership and also what kind of employee ownership. So would a employee on cooperative be the best fit for them? Would an aesop be a better fit? And the way that we look at that is, is through conversation of course, primarily with the owners and also through financial analysis. So we'll, we'll look at the numbers. We'll look at the expected future cash flow of the business. And [00:20:30] we always get asked how can the workers afford to buy the business that they work in. And most of them can't, especially since we focus on on low and moderate wage workers, what happens, many of these transactions have been financed primarily by debt and there are a number of other as well creative forms of equity that can be used. And in fact project equity, we'll be publishing next month a an investor's guide to worker cooperatives. So how can impact investors, for example, play a role in [00:21:00] helping companies transition to become employee owned? Speaker 1:Interesting. A lot. Why? Where does the deck, who would loan the workers that the, the money to buy the company? Is there a community banks or something like that? Speaker 2:It is mostly community development, financial institutions or CDFIs at this point. And there are handful of them around the country that are actually focused on cooperative businesses. So they are the ones, some of them are national, so they're the ones that are stepping up to do some of these early deals and have done the historic deals. So historically [00:21:30] about 40% of today's worker cooperatives were created through the conversion of a successful existing business. But until the last couple of years, there has never been a proactive initiative to encourage and support these transitions. So right now it is these CDFIs that are supporting the Tra the conversions. We have done a lot of work and in fact published a FAQ, if you will, for lenders about this. It's available on project equity's website and we've talked to a lot of community banks as well as more [00:22:00] mainstream banks in the bay area and around the country who are interested in this and trying to figure out how they can make it work. So there's some immediate barriers that they come up against. But some of that is just perception. So education can go a long way and somebody is thinking maybe a little bit differently about underwriting, although of course the businesses would have to meet the normal criteria for being able to pay back loans. Speaker 1:Part of the, the kind of value proposition of project equity is to have the know how but also bring the capital to the table for the right deal. Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah. We're not ourselves a capital [00:22:30] provider at this point, but we do have partnerships with capital providers. So that is something that we do bring. Um, and once the feasibility has been established then there is a deeper conversation with some of the employees to just to see if there is a there, there on the other side. Once the owners have said, we think we'd like to do this, then we'll help them gauge the interest among the employees. And if that's a go ahead, we'll bring them formerly in as a longer term project equity client and work with them to create a roadmap for the transition. And that has several layers to it. So first there is that [00:23:00] financial layer and that involves, we know that it's feasible, but what do we think the right prices for the business? Well, we'll recommend an outside formal evaluation that doesn't always happen, but it can be a helpful ingredient in the process, will help the owners. And the employees make an agreement about the price and help them structure the deal. So will it be seller financed at all? Will it be outside finance? Will there be any equity? How much will worker owners put in and how much of that is up front versus paid over time? Speaker 1:Is it, uh, is there a, uh, stipulation [00:23:30] that there must be a majority transfer of, of shares or are you doing somewhere the workers get a minority of ownership and the the owners actually retained control? Like is that a cause it sounds like for you, for this to work they have to have board seats and they have to really have a lot of control in some ways. Is that, is there a percentage that makes, makes it work or is it doesn't matter? Yeah, Speaker 2:we, we support the kind of standard definition of a worker. Unemploy on cooperative would have the majority [00:24:00] of board seats filled by worker owners. Um, but we're also very supportive of phased transitions. Right now. The ones that we're working on are there actually seller financed so that the transition formerly happens in one moment in time. But the, the debt is paid off over about five years. Okay. So the owner, we're right at the point where we're designing in the transitional control and figuring out exactly what that might look like. Okay. But with the owners staying in, in these particular cases, they do play a role that's sort [00:24:30] of akin to a general manager. So they still have a very strong leadership role while they, you know, start to work with a board of directors and, and share, share the um, governance level decision making. Speaker 1:What an exciting project. I'm so thrilled to hear about what you're doing and excited to see what kind of things you guys do. You know, we talked a lot about the, um, the workers and their motivations, but let's talk about the owners for a second. And you know, when I was reading your website, a lot of it is geared towards the owners as you're trying to convince them. And it sounds like you've [00:25:00] got a lot of great owners who want to do the right thing and that's why they're doing it. And the word that Kinda came up for me was legacy. That seems to be like the overarching reason. Why is that? Would you say that that's accurate? Speaker 2:That's exactly the word I would choose and I'm delighted that that's what came across to you because that is our goal with a website is to communicate that that owners who are concerned about their legacy and want to leave a legacy should really consider employee ownership. We had an interesting experience when we did that focus group in Oakland back in 2014 with local business owners and we started [00:25:30] by talking to them about employee ownership and asking what they knew about it, if they'd heard of any employee owned companies, what their impressions were, and then we transitioned to them what they wanted when they left their business or when they retired. And that was when the conversation started to click cause what they said was we want our customers to be taken care of. We want our employees to be taken care of. We want our business to live on this thing that we've put our blood, sweat and tears over years into creating. Speaker 2:We want it to continue to be an important presence in the community. And those three things [00:26:00] are things that employee ownership is uniquely positioned to do. So it is really all about legacy and we think that the companies that we're working with right now are kind of the cutting edge. Maybe you could call it for up from our purposes, the low hanging fruit, the sort of first movers and what we're working towards for the future is getting in conversation with the more mainstream business sellers. And they don't have to be, have any particular attitude for this to be a fit. They don't have to be staying in, they could be leaving, [00:26:30] but if they are concerned about leaving a strong company for the future and their legacy, it could very well be a good fit. Speaker 1:Well I wanted to ask you about, um, like one of the big buzz words around the bay area is liquidity. You know, start companies to get rid of the company a lot of times to sell it or go public and lose control. And is that concept exists and once you've converted over to becoming a worker owned cooperative is how you get money from your equity. Basically just distributions of the profits. [00:27:00] And there's, there's really never a big check that comes from selling it. Speaker 2:That is generally true with worker cooperatives. Um, Aesop's can be different. Um, so ESOPs are created initially with evaluation and then evaluation is done every year and they're owned through a trust. Employees on stock through a trust. And that trust does appreciate or depreciate according to the valuation every year and employees retirement accounts, you know, go up if the company valuation goes up. Um, Speaker 1:and there's a set valuation methodology [00:27:30] every year. That's how, yes. Okay. Yeah. That would take a big controversial how, how'd that happened? Speaker 2:Absolutely. It's a key factor. Yeah. Yeah. And in worker cooperatives, it's a, it's a little bit different in that the cooperative businesses are generally built for longevity. So often there is a provision in the bylaws of the cooperative that would incentivize at staying as a cooperative and not de mu de mutualizing, if you will. So if you go to a place like northern Italy or Spain where the Mondo Ground Cooperative Corporation is the largest worker cooperative in the world [00:28:00] with 100,000, um, workers, you'll, you'll find that they, the workers there will talk about their, um, the next generation in their family working in this company and seeing it as, as part of the community, part of the economy for the longterm. So in, in general, most cooperatives look to maintain being a cooperative in the future and are not valued based on a share price. Yeah, Speaker 1:it's really, it's really great work. A really excited, like I said, to see where you guys go. I always asked, uh, we're talking to Hillary of Bell, she's a cofounder of project equity here [00:28:30] on methods of the Madison KLX Berkeley. And I always, this is my last question. I always ask an entrepreneur like yourself, so you started this journey, you created this thing out of scratch. You have a lot of passion for it. You see a problem in society, you're trying to solve really important one. Um, if everything goes right for you five years from now, what will project equity look like? Speaker 2:I'm looking forward to seeing us with an expanded team. I don't think project equity itself will ever get huge, but maybe we'll be a team of 10 [00:29:00] or 20 people and being a thriving part of an ecosystem in the bay area and in maybe five or 10 other regions around the country where we have a project equity sister organization or a branch of project equity that is doing the same kind of place based employee ownership scaling that we're piloting here in the bay area. And we're also getting started in the twin cities in western North Carolina this year. And I hope that we'll have really strong relationships with everyone from the city economic development [00:29:30] officials to the wealth advisors, to the business brokers, to the boutique investment banks. Um, so that everybody in those regions will have seen enough about employee Speaker 1:ownership have, it will become normalized as an idea and we'll be talking to the businesses that they provide services to. You know, whether you're a CPA or a lawyer or whatever it may be about this business model. Great. Well, good luck on that vision. It sounds like you're on a good path to, to realizing that. [00:30:00] Um, we've been talking to Hillary Bell, she's the Cofounder Project Equity Hillary. How do people get in touch with you guys or learn more if they want to get in contact? Um, please visit our website. It's project hyphen equity.org and um, you can contact us@infoatprojecthyphenequity.org. We would love to hear from you. Great. Okay, well thanks everybody for listening today. This has been method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm your host is our, thanks for tuning in. Thanks Hillary for joining and have [00:30:30] a great Friday. Everybody. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Host Lisa Kiefer interviews public school teacher, mother, and author Brook Pessin-Whedbee about her new book Who Are You? The Kid's Guide to Gender Identity. Brooke is an active member of the Gender Spectrum community that celebrates gender diversity and whose mission is to create a gender-inclusive world for all children and youth. She artfully introduces children to gender in her book and shows how people can bend and break the gender binary and stereotypes.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. Speaker 2:You were listening to method to the madness and weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm interviewing Brook Pason wed [00:00:30] Westby. She's the author of who are you the kid's guide to gender identity. We'll be talking about her book and the gender identity spectrum. Speaker 1:Okay, Speaker 3:welcome to the program. Thanks. I'm really glad to be able to talk to you. [00:01:00] Yes, I really enjoyed your book for children called who are you, the kid's guide to gender identity. What age group are you targeting? So I'm an elementary school teacher. I work in Berkeley public schools and I wrote this book mainly for elementary school kids, although there are lots of preschool teachers who are now using it with their students. So I would say from three on up. Okay. And I understand you've had a lot of success. How many printings are you at now? Well, we're on our second printing now. The first print [00:01:30] run actually ran out faster than the publishers anticipated. So we just had a second print run of 5,000 and those are just coming into bookstores now, which is really great. And congratulations. You've chosen a topic, gender identity, which is a lot more common in people's vocabulary now than it used to be. Speaker 3:What was your personal reason for writing a book like this? Sure. So I, I have been an elementary school teacher for, for many years and in Oakland and in Berkeley and as a teacher [00:02:00] and as a parent, I've known many, many kids who don't fit into the gender boxes and, and none of us really fit totally into the gender boxes. But, um, what was happening a couple of years ago, I had a second grade class where here the kids here in Berkeley, right at Rosa Parks Elementary. And my students were asking me a lot of questions and um, there was one day I'll remember, I'll never forget this day when we were walking across the playground. And I, I was just walking my line back to class, but I was hearing these [00:02:30] kids behind me. For my class, kind of in this great debate over the soccer game that was happening. And one kid was saying, oh my goodness, look at that shot. Speaker 3:He's such a good, he's such a good soccer player. And another kid said, no, she's a girl. Look, she has long hair and she's wearing a dress. And they kind of went back and forth like arguing over this soccer player. And when we got back to the classroom and they looked at me and they said, well, teacher brook, what's, which is it? Is, is that a boy or a girl? And that brought up a whole lot more questions, right? Like how, how do you know if is a boy [00:03:00] or a girl and you know, can you assume things just by looking at people and what does that mean? If someone says they're not a boy or a girl? And so that was the day where I sort of decided, well, I need to really sit down and address this, you know, in a deeper way with my class. Speaker 3:Well, what I found by reading your book is that I wish that it was forced on adults to read. Actually it is, I mean it's a kids book. It's a beautifully illustrated picture book that's really meant to. And is your cat writer Naomi barred off? Yeah, she did a wonderful job when we, [00:03:30] when we were planning the book, we wanted to make sure that the illustrations made it so that any kid could pick up the book and see themselves reflected in it. So, and I think she did a really lovely job of that. Um, so she had beautiful illustrations and, and really we wanted to target the youngest audience because, you know, I've been a kindergarten teacher for most of my teaching life that particular year I was teaching second grade. But you know, everything I do in my work is around translating big ideas into kid friendly terms. Speaker 3:And so the target audience really was younger, you know, the [00:04:00] younger crowd. But like you said, it's, it's for adults too. I mean, I've had so many adults come to me and say, Gosh, I just, I'm not really sure how to talk about this with my kids. I, you know, I might understand it as, as an adult, there'll be able to talk to other adults about it. But what's the language like how do I answer my kid's questions? How do I, how do I, you know, talk about what do you remember Mike Children actually educated me about sexuality and gender. My generation, we really didn't get any of that in school or in your teacher training, [00:04:30] were you taught how to address the spectrum of gender? When did that start? So I actually was here at cow about 12 years ago. And I don't remember, I mean, it's terrible to say, but I don't remember if this came up at all at that time. Speaker 3:I mean, I certainly didn't go into the classroom after that feeling like, oh, I know how to talk about gender diversity with kids. I mean, it was many years. I had, you know, one year I had the younger sibling of a transgender girl and you know, we kind of just started [00:05:00] thinking about what books were out there and wasn't a lot available. And then, you know, with my second grade class that day we were, we ended up at the door with them saying is, is that kid a boy or a girl? And I wanted to really get into that with them. I went home that night and I looked for books to help me kind of lead that discussion. And there w there were a lot of books. I mean I ordered 30 books that night off of Amazon and they were, many of them were very good, but none of them were just what I wanted because what I, what I was interested in [00:05:30] was a book that would help me with the language to talk about stories. Speaker 3:And you know, stories are wonderful for kids and kids get to share their own stories through this book, but just giving the, the very simple language or they get so hooked into these stereotypes. You know, just back to your question about the teacher training. I don't remember going into the classroom feeling very well equipped and even as sort of an experienced teacher, I was scrambling for resources, which is why I then ended up, you know, I just said, now I'm going to have to write this book. Now I actually am a supervisor for [00:06:00] pre service teachers in the, in the developmental teacher at education program here. Is it just him fornia or is this something that's happening everywhere? Well, you know, I know that right now teach in teacher ed programs. I mean they are talking about it in the health classes. I mean I don't know nationwide, but I know the conversation, like you said, is much more sort of out in, it's in the media. Speaker 3:It's, you know, kids are asking what does transgender mean and what, there's more than two or so many new words in our vocabulary about sexuality and gender and we should [00:06:30] just define some of these things for our audience. For those people who maybe don't understand what is the difference? Sexual orientation is who you go to bed with and gender identity is who you go to bed as. All right. That makes sense to me. So I've heard that a lot. A lot of people like to talk about that. And you know, one thing that comes up is, oh my goodness, we can't talk about sexual orientation with young kids. And we've for years in Berkeley have been talking about, you know, different family structures and that sort of how we address that [00:07:00] in, you know, for very young kids. But I think when you start talking about identity, people are even less comfortable, you know, knowing how to navigate all the different words that are out there. Speaker 3:Right? And so what I mean, what I like to say is it's like learning a new language and once you practice and you get comfortable with the language, it, it becomes a little more fluent and, and it gets easier to talk about. So I think one thing I like about the book is that it offers people really simple language. Like if a kid's asking what does transgender mean? What I would say to a really young kid [00:07:30] is, well, when babies were born that they couldn't talk and said their grownups made a guess about their gender by looking at their body and sometimes the grownups guests, right. And you know, and this is practically directly from the book, sometimes grownups, guests, guest write about a baby's gender and that matches the way you know, their body matches the way they identify. And that would be cisgender. Speaker 3:Um, and sometimes the grownups mega to guests and they weren't right. They get grownups guessed wrong and, and who [00:08:00] you know, who a kid knows they are inside their identity is different than, than what their body, you know, and today our science is so much better and we're able to know what's going on inside physically. And unfortunately maybe not when a baby is born, but I can envision some time where they're not going to hold up the baby and say it's a boy, it's a girl. They're just going to hold up the baby and say it's a lie baby. Right, right, right. Well then I think that also speaks to how our idea of gender is widening, right? They're [00:08:30] more than just two choices. And you know, this kind of gets into what does non-binary mean, which is, you know, Gender Queer, trans, you know, some of those words. Speaker 3:And, and I don't like to identify, I don't like to, to define words necessarily because I think it's a really individual thing. And you'll talk to four different people that identify as non-binary and they'll have, they will all have a different way of describing themselves. So, you know, it gets a little tricky when you're about defining terms. But what I can say is that for words like non-binary, [00:09:00] I think we're all starting to understand that in many people have known this for for many, many years, but cultures across cultures across time, non-binary Trans folks have existed and have, have definitely known who they are. But I think in terms of our larger culture, and particularly for me as a teacher in a school, it's coming up a lot more. And I think the language that's helpful to use with young kids is just, there's more than two choices. There's more than two boxes, you [00:09:30] know, some people think that there are only two genders, but they're actually really many genders. And here are just some of the words that people are using in their so many more words that are being created faster than we can keep up. Speaker 1:[inaudible] Speaker 2:if you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness and weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay [00:10:00] area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Crook Pesan, Web B teacher and author of who are you the kids guide to gender identity. What is the approach you take? Can you walk us through? Speaker 3:Yeah, so the book, so the book is really, it's a nonfiction illustrated picture book. And so the idea is that there's no one character that has a story in it. Any kid that picks up the book, any person that reads the book can bring their own story to it. And so it's, [00:10:30] it's kind of divided into the different parts of gender. So your body, your expression, and your identity and it goes sort of chronologically through a person's life. When you're a baby, your body's sort of the leading factor that makes people get, make a guess about your gender. And so the whole First Section is about your body and how there's a difference between sex and gender and that some people get those confused. I like what you said about pink and blue that a hundred years ago boys wore pink and girls weren't right. So then the next [00:11:00] part is all about how we express ourselves. Speaker 3:Right? And colors and toys and clothes and hair, all, you know, the way we act or mannerisms. All of those are things that that help us express ourselves. But those are also the things that, you know, society kind of puts us in boxes and says, you know, girls are supposed to wear pink and boys are supposed to wear blue. But you know, the example that you're talking about really brings up a lot around how that can change too. Right? You know, over time society has said, you know, only girls wear earrings and now we, [00:11:30] you know, many of us probably know a lot of men who wear earrings or a lot of yes. And anybody who loves him about um, this uh, movement in Japan kind of came out of anime where they're trying to basically say that gender doesn't matter. And so rock band, the boys are wearing female traditionally female outfit and makeup and yet they say they're boys. Speaker 3:So yeah, I mean I think it's like saying at some point this isn't going to be important. Right. And I think in, you know, in the school setting, what we do a lot [00:12:00] of is we just talk about how clothes are just clothes. You know, some people say their boy clothes and girl clothes and it's, we walk into a store and we see a sign that says boys section and girls section, but really clothes don't have a gender, clothes are just clothes and people should get to wear what they feel comfortable wearing and express themselves however they want. And so, you know, kind of getting away from the idea that choice have a journey up, some of them French monarchs and the kind of female clothing, additional fee book. I mean there's a lot of ways that our gender boxes are getting broken, you know, historically and now just there's [00:12:30] a lot of ways that nobody really fits into the boxes that society is giving us for gender. Speaker 3:And I think for kids who are feeling like, gosh, I don't really fit into this box, that can be really freeing to see that you don't have to fit into the box. You do get to be who whoever you are and express yourself instead of scorned. It's appreciated. Right. And I think classmates, exactly. And I think that is a huge, one of the huge goals of this book because a lot of the books that are out there right now have, you know, they're, they're wonderful books in there. Definitely [00:13:00] they help with the discussion around different people's experiences. But there's a lot of negativity and you know, the kids who are teasing other kids or the parents who are unsupportive. And I wanted this book to be all positive, all celebration because I, you know, if you don't fit into the gender boxes, that is not just, okay, it's, it's wonderful. Speaker 3:It's something to be celebrated and it, you know, I think we can learn a lot from kids who are also involving parents in this discussion when you do it. Oh absolutely. I mean I've been doing parent education nights with [00:13:30] Albany School district. There's family literacy night challenges of that or have you had any yeah, I mean I think truthfully I haven't had a lot of challenge yet. I mean, I know it's out there, you know, we're in a wonderful, the bay area is a wonderful place to be and there are still, there's, you know, I think parents feel concerned, you know, kids are too young to talk about this. I would argue that kids that are talking about gender from the time that they can talk, I mean they're, they have messages around genders, you know, from a very young age. So [00:14:00] they're already talking about it as, as adults, as parents and teachers, we just get to decide if we want to be part of that conversation or not because they're having the conversation. Speaker 3:So that's one of the big sort of concerns that I hear frequently is we can't talk about this with kids. I mean also it's like, well how do we talk about this with kids? You know, there are parents who might want to be talking about what does transgender mean, but they don't necessarily know how. So I think really just kind of supporting people to learn the new language is, you know, is Kinda [00:14:30] one of the ways to help parents who are feeling maybe a little bit nervous and it gives them a lot of time before puberty sets in to plan. I mean, or to think about how they will approach it. I mean, I think one other thing that comes up a lot is that I can really see the difference between folks who know someone who is transgender or non-binary and people who don't. Speaker 3:Because I think once you have a personal connection with someone, you know someone's story, you can relate on a human level and then it's not [00:15:00] so sort of sensationalized or, or for. Exactly. And so I think one thing that is nice about this book is it really encourages people to tell their own story. And on the website of the book, the book has a website, kid's guide to gender.com and there's a part where you can tell your story. And I really have been encouraging people to share their stories because I think as soon as you start to hear people's personal stories, it, it becomes a little more understandable. Oh yeah. Kids, I mean, I've been getting teens from Minnesota [00:15:30] have written in, we've got, you know, parents who have said, gosh, I took this to my child's preschool thinking that it would be great for the kids to learn from. Speaker 3:But then it turns out one of the teachers said, Oh Gosh, I'm, I'm transgender and I have never really known how to talk about this with my students and this is my access point. So yeah, lots of really wonderful stories from let's get back to the book. Yeah. You get to a color wheel. Yes. So it starts off with the part about your body and then it goes into the part about expression and all the different ways there are to express yourself and then [00:16:00] it gets into the part about identity and how some people's identity matches with, you know, what their grownups thought when they were born. And sometimes it doesn't. So it kind of the difference between what it means to be cisgender or to be non-binary or transgender or trans. And it goes through all the different words around, um, all the different gender expansive words, all the, the gender diverse terms that are out there. Speaker 3:And then at the end, you know, the last page of the books is there's lots of ways to be a boy. There's lots of ways to be a girl, there's lots of ways to be a kid. And that's sort of the, [00:16:30] the message that be who you are. The wheel at the end of the book was actually the reason that I wrote the book because I wanted to have a really concrete tool for kids, so that message at the end, there's lots of ways to be a kid can sometimes be x abstract for kids and so the gender wheel makes it really concrete. There's three different wheels that you can turn and you can mix and this is a real physical, like a color wheel. It's raining, it's a rainbow. It's like a color wheel. In this, the center wheel says I have [00:17:00] and it's about your body. Speaker 3:So I have a body that made the grownups guess, boy, I have a body that made the grownups guess girl. I have a body that made the grownups say we're not sure. And then the the next wheel is the identity wheel. I am and it says, I am a boy, I am a girl. I am both. I am neither. There's it's a can, whatever. Right? There's, there's so many different terms there. At one, one of the lines says, I am not sure there's a blank line. You can fill in the blank. If the like that you've left a lot [00:17:30] of blanks in there as well. Well there's no way I could possibly have captured every word and there are new words out there that I don't even know about. So I wanted to make sure that with a blank line you get to fill in however you do, identify whatever words you use to describe yourself. Speaker 3:There's a place for that. And then the last real is your expression. So it says, I like so the, the order is I have, I am, I like, and it really just keeps it simple. My body, my expression, my identity and my body, my identity, my expression and a lot of kids, [00:18:00] the way we've been using the, the gender wheel in the classroom is that we'll take other books. So we'll take, I am jazz for example, and kids will get to put jazz on the wheel and say, Oh, jazz has a body that made the grownups guess, boy or girl. I know Ferdinand is wonderful to him. Virginia is a great, you know, and that's one of the older, that's one of the oldest books on my, on my recommended book list there. I mean I think that was sort of the original story where it was saying you don't have to be who other people want you to be. You get to be yourself [00:18:30] and, and I think that's one of the central messages of the book too is you are who you say you are. Other people don't tell you who you are. You're the one that knows you best. Yeah. Those are lines directly from the book. Speaker 2:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to the method to the madness. Weekly Public Affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Brook Pesan Web beat [00:19:00] teacher and author of who are you the kids guide to gender identity. Speaker 3:I thought about approaching this from a puberty level. Another book because let's face it, at puberty your body starts to change and the changes may not agree with what you think you are gender wise. You know, like in Holland they are doing studies of putting off puberty with hormones which have been really successful, which allows a kid [00:19:30] to to figure it out. Yeah. And have you thought about doing something a little farther down? Oh, they're kids. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I actually have thought about sort of the next book that I want to be writing and more so than thinking about kids who are older. I'm more thinking about kind of sticking with the younger crew and, and thinking about the non-binary characters cause those kids, those characters are really underrepresented in children's literature right now. And so, um, I mean that's kind [00:20:00] of where I've been going in terms of thinking about what's missing in the, the book world. Speaker 3:I mean I'm a classroom teacher and I love using books as resources. So, so your natural would be more of a fictional account of a non, yeah, with, with a non-binary character because there are books with transgender characters in their books with gender expansive kids who, you know, might identify as a boy and like to wear dresses. There's a lot of really wonderful books out there, but there are, I haven't yet found a great book with a character who isn't a boy or a girl, a character [00:20:30] who doesn't use he or she pronouns. Um, and you know, I know kids who, who use they pronouns and you know, their first grade classmates don't really know what to make of that. And I know kids who are non-binary who don't use any pronouns at all and that be linguistically challenging. But I think if we see our seeing those characters in books, it makes it a lot more accessible. Speaker 3:Any kind of media actually you've been going around and reading this book at bookstores and sounds like [00:21:00] you've gotten a great response. Oh yeah. We've, I mean I've been reading in the South Bay in Berkeley. And have you been going anywhere else? I haven't yet gone anywhere else this summer I'll go to the east coast and we'll actually do a workshop at the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference in September, but on Saturday I'm going to be at Laurel books in Oakland at 3:00 PM so I'll be really excited to do a reading. And a presentation for the 3:00 PM at Laura Bookstore. And that, oh, you know, one thing I really liked about your book, at the end of your [00:21:30] book, you give so much information about resources both for students, for parents, organizations, and you founded an organization and, and what is that? Yeah, so I founded the gender inclusive schools alliance and that was a few years ago when I, as a parent in the Berkeley school system. Speaker 3:I was thinking about, you know, wanting to reach out to other parents and I just, and, and I think what happens a lot is that parents feel sort of isolated in their [00:22:00] individual schools, especially in a district as small as Berkeley. And so the gender inclusive schools alliance is a group of families of transgender, non-binary gender expansive kids. And you know, on the one hand it's, it's a nice support group to kind of share experiences across the different schools. But also it's an advocacy organization because in Berkeley Unified School district, there is a very progressive policy. I think the district was one of the first to adopt, um, a policy around transgender rights. And, um, I think it's called [00:22:30] the gender identity and access policy. And so they have rooms and yeah, bathrooms, locker rooms, just the, the information system. So how you're, you know, on the forms and the technology, the way it's you're entered into the system, curriculum, professional development, all of that is addressed in this board policy and the administrative regulations. Speaker 3:And so the gender inclusive schools alliance is really there as the families in the district to say, hey, we want to support all of the efforts with the district is making, we appreciate that so much. And, [00:23:00] and we all know that operationalizing policies can be challenging because there's just lots of steps to be taken. So we've been really working with the district to do that and wonderful things that have come out of that group are that now there are non-binary gender marker options in the Berkeley school grades systems. Well, absolutely. So you can, you know, you can have your gender marker be known binary there. There's an all student bathroom at every elementary school now. And we're working with the district to think about how to get [00:23:30] even more access for kids who need all student bathrooms for him. So yeah, some wonderful things have come from that family group. Speaker 3:And then also just you mentioned the, the resources on the website. Oh, W l she had books. Films, yeah, they're adults and children. She's really great. And the idea behind that was really that as a teacher, I don't expect folks to be able to pick up this book and teach it right away in their class. I mean, there's a lot of groundwork that needs to get laid in order for it to be successful in the classroom. And you need to have a gender inclusive space where [00:24:00] you know, you've got a school culture where talking about this as you know, as part of the norm and you're talking about diversity and individuality and all of that. So I wanted to give teachers those resources before you read this book here. You know, if you go onto the website, kids guide to gender.com to the resources section, you'll be able to find all the different books and lessons that you can do before you read. Speaker 3:Who are you and then after that to being able to access different people's stories. I mean in my school we've watched [00:24:30] videos of kids who are sharing their stories and it's a nice access point for kids to be able to connect the book. Who are you? Just to real life and real people. So there's a ton of resources for educators and then also for families. Um, there's a lot on the website around how can you make your school more gender inclusive? Cause I think that's one of the main concerns I hear from parents of gender expansive kids is I want to support my school to be more inclusive. But I'm not sure how statistics are horrible. Once [00:25:00] you reach adolescence and you are transgender, the suicide rate is very high. I think it's over 40% that attempted to high in it. And that's why the other thing, I feel like this book is so important. Speaker 3:It's going to nip that in the bud and create an environment that's going to be so much more freeing for these young students. And you're also, you're also creating allies because you know, this book and the curriculum is not just about the gender expansive kids, the non-binary kids, the transgender kids, [00:25:30] it's about all kids. And actually it's almost more important for the other, you know, all of the kids in the class in, in a school to, to understand gender diversity because you know, it really benefits all kids. And really, even in the younger, at the younger ages, kids are really just curious, right? Like they, they'll see a kid and say, you know, Huh, is that a boy or a girl? But for that student, if they're being asked over and over again, are you a boy or a girl? You know, it's not necessarily intended in any kind [00:26:00] of mean way, but it can feel like, you know, and feel ostracized. Speaker 3:It really can. And I think that as a teacher at a school, I feel like it is our responsibility as educators to create the space where we, the adults are the ones educating our community in our class. So it doesn't have to fall on the shoulders of a five-year-old to explain gender diversity to 500 students at a school. I'm very excited about a world where none of this matters. Yeah. You know, I have always [00:26:30] thought about my job as a teacher and I, you know, I've said this before, I've always thought about my job as a teacher and as a parent, as you know, I'm here to kind of help kids grow up and do good things and be good people and go out into the world. Like I'm preparing my kids for the world. Um, but in writing this book and doing this work, I've realized that my job is really so much more than just that. Speaker 3:It's really, we're preparing the world for our kids. Things are changing. And the thing is, you know, national geographic calls it the gender revolution [00:27:00] that that issue just came out in January. A fantastic national geographic issue that came out with a documentary with Katie curric and you know, I think it is a gender revolution and I think it's, it's a reflection of the transformation that's happening in our society in many different ways, not just culturally, but scientifically. Absolutely. We now know how sexuality, how the spectrum occurs and where you, you, if you want to know exactly where you are on the spectrum, it's pretty easy to figure that out, right? Yeah. I mean there's a lot. It's, it [00:27:30] is really interesting, the science behind it and the, and the relationship between science and society and transformative period. And I think what I like to say is that transformation starts with a conversation. Speaker 3:And who are you as a book that helps you start that conversation? Well, congratulations on your book. I thought it was just lovely. Thank you. And again, you'll be doing a reading tomorrow. I'll be doing a reading tomorrow at Laurel books at 3:00 PM and encourage folks to go to the website, kids' guide to gender.com there's all sorts [00:28:00] of other resources that people can ask. All one word kid's guide to gender guide to gender.com and I'm go buy the book for your local library, for your local public school, for your grandparents. I mean people are really making sure that it's getting out there into the world cause it's not just for kids. It's for everybody. I agree. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was Brooke Pesan Webby, the author of who are you, the kids guide to gender Speaker 2:identity. You can find out more [00:28:30] about gender identity in her book at kids' guide to gender.com you've been listening to method to the madness of week three Publican bear show on k a l expertly celebrating bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll be back next Friday. Speaker 4:[00:29:00] Okay. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Ayelet Waldman, novelist, essayist, screenwriter, and activist, talks about her new non-fiction book A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life, in which she describes a month long experiment treating her unstable moods with minuscule doses of LSD. Finding psychotropic med prescriptions of little help, Waldman became intrigued by the work of Dr. James Fadiman, a psychologist and researcher who has chronicled the positive effects of microdosing LSD. Waldman is also a lawyer, an accomplished former federal public defender and former teacher at Boalt Hall, U. C. Berkeley's law school. Her legal career includes working to rescue women from prison and advocating for drug-policy reform.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l expertly celebrating bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'll be talking with novelist and essayist. I yell at Wildman. We'll be talking about her new book, a really good day. How microdosing made a mega difference in my mood, my marriage, and my life. Chris, your pleasure to be here. It's great. After I first [00:00:30] got lost on campus, which I will probably do till the end of time, it's on your used to teach on camera. Speaker 2:I taught here at the boat law school for seven semesters yet I want to talk about your new book. I really liked it and so glad the superficial level of it. It's a diary of you microdosing for 30 days, but yes, it's so much more than that. It's about how the war on drugs has failed drug reform policy. It's about psychedelic research. It's about your family. Yes. It's about mood disorders and how they affect family. So you're a legal professional. Yes. And you are a a federal public defender. A criminal defense [00:01:00] lawyer. Tell us the journey of how you got to a schedule one illegal drug for your mood disorder. So it was really a matter of desperation. So I have a mood disorder, but I have a mood disorder that was for many, many years, very well controlled. You know, I'm not one of those people who doesn't take our medicines. Speaker 2:I took my medicine and I took it regularly. My mood disorder was diagnosed as premenstrual dysphoric disorder and the easiest way to understand that is just pms on steroids. It took a while to get the diagnosis. I had a lot of misdiagnoses [00:01:30] first, but eventually I got the diagnosis. I was treated by a psychiatrist who had an expertise in women's mood and hormones and she put me on a very easy to follow very specific medication regimen. I took a week of antidepressants right before my period and for many years that worked great. It was life altering. I mean it was amazing there. I was one month, didn't know what to do, cycling uncontrollably the next month, popping a pill and feeling much better. But then of course I got older [00:02:00] and when you hit your forties when you're a woman, you enter into this protracted period of peri-menopause, which isn't menopause when you stop getting your period, but it's kind of like the build up to that and there's so little literature on it. Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought you'd just like some, one day you're stopped getting your period. I didn't know that. For years I would get two periods a month, three periods a month, no periods, skip a bunch, get one, skip four again, another one, you know, it was just completely unpredictable and crazy. So your mood is fluctuating madly because your hormones are fluctuating madly [00:02:30] and my specific medication regimen required me to know exactly when I was going to get my period and I didn't know anymore and that catalyze this kind of mood disaster. I became a very, very depressed, but my kind of depression is an activated depression, so it's not like I crawled into bed and went to sleep. I was still very productive, but I was very quick to anger, very irritable. I was very difficult to live with and I would get into these spirals where I would be horrible to the people in my family and then I would feel shame and depressed [00:03:00] and I ultimately became suicidal before I began the microdosing experiment, I had left the place of ideation and was more into a kind of more planning phase. Speaker 2:At one point I was standing in front of my medicine cabinet, kind of evaluating its contents to see what was the most dangerous drug in it. Spoiler alert, Tylenol. I have a lot of stuff in my medicine cabinet, but that is a dangerous drug and that's when I decided to try this crazy thing. That's illegal schedule one. I decided to try micro-dosing with LSD. Tell us how you did that. You, you met [00:03:30] James Fadiman. I reached out to James Fadiman. I use an old time researcher on psychoactive drugs. The 60 60 the sixties he, yes, he was a Stanford t and a couple of other people had a study specifically designed to evaluate the effects of LSD on creative problem solving. Fadiman and his colleagues invited these 28 engineers, architects, people in those sort of beginnings of the computer industry because this was like 1966 right? Right. Speaker 2:Yeah, right. LSD was illegal. Right? They said to these people, bring a problem. You're not, [00:04:00] we're not, we're not inviting you here to seek God. We're asking you to bring, you know, a math problem and engineering problem, a design problem, something that you've had really a hard time figuring out. Bring your intractable problem to this experience and we'll see what happens. And so these people came in and they got dosed with LSD and the researchers watch them. And what was remarkable is that many of them not only solve their problems, but went on to have these profound insights into their work. Very few of them had kind of spiritual awakenings. [00:04:30] The study was, he said to bring in to problems that you have been unable to solve for one reason or another. Exactly directed it to problem solve. It was all about sort of set and setting. Speaker 2:It was like intention, right. You know that stupid thing they say before you do your yoga. Having the intention to solve your problem actually resulted in some number of these individuals solving their problems, going on to file patents and and create in some cases, companies based on these. Then of course that research was shut down and if adamant describes it, he says that he had just dosed [00:05:00] a subject group. The LSD was about to hit and they get this letter informing them that their specific permit was going to be rescinded. And so he looks at the letter and he looks at his colleague and he says, I think we got this letter tomorrow. But you know, it was really, it's a shame that that research was shut down because I think what we're seeing now with this resurgence of interest in LSD and particularly micro-dosing, which are to define it for your audience, a microdose is a small dose, a dose that's too small to elicit [00:05:30] any perceptual effects. Speaker 2:But so sub psychedelic thing. Yeah, new tripping. But it's large enough to have metabolic effects. So in a sense we're looking for something that can act in a way that you almost don't notice. If I had slipped it into your coffee right now, you would not know that you were micro-dosing except at the end of the day after our interview, after the rest of your work, you might go home and think, Huh, that was a really good day. Okay, so, so, so I know [inaudible] yes, she's written a book by Psychedelic and spiritual journeys. I said, but that's [00:06:00] not the kind of book that I'm likely to read because I'm not a particularly psych psychedelics or spiritual personal. Great is you're not. So I'm very practical. I was raised by atheist parents whose atheism was as dogmatic as a Hasidic Jews, Judaism. I mean we were, my parents raised me to have disgust for religion and for spirituality of all kinds, which I struggle with, you know, I'm trying to overcome. Speaker 2:We all try to overcome the biases of our parents. So I'm, I'm looking on the Internet. I'm in this place of profound depression, Anhedonia. [00:06:30] And I see this talk that Jim is giving and he talks about microdosing and he says that at the end of the day, people report that they had a really good day. And I felt like I'd been hit in the head with a mallet, like a real echos all. I wanted a really one really forget really good. I just wanted a good day. I wanted a day where I didn't feel this kind of sense of despair and inability to take pleasure in my family and my husband did my [00:07:00] marriage and my surroundings and so I reached out to him and he is the most loving, generous man. I mean, look, I'm a person with daddy issues. I get that. I have a very typical, my father's much older than my mother, and you talk about this in the book. Speaker 2:I was 40 when I was born, so he was older, which in the 60s that was really old, but he was a very uninvolved father and he also had his own mood disorder, so he was, it's hard to live with a parent with a mood disorder as my children can likely attest. Dr Fadiman's generosity, his warmth is his willingness to [00:07:30] talk on the phone with me for hours about my issues, about my problems, about, you know, what I tried was really, it was an, it was a novel experience for that's what you wanted. Yeah. In a, in a way or my dad and I have known one another's mood disorders forever and we've literally never spoken about it once. So one day I'm a visiting my parents and my father comes out of this room, this kind of junk room and he hands me this stack of micro cassette tapes and he says, here, do something with these tapes of my [00:08:00] psychotherapy sessions from the 80s so I have this pile of tapes of my dad's therapy and for years I just couldn't even look at them. Speaker 2:I was just like, Ugh, you know, you want to tell me how you're feeling, just talk to me. But then eventually I actually did a whole story for this American life about these tapes cause I did eventually listen to them hoping for great profound insight and got nothing. But what you did get, it's so hilarious in the history of communism, all my dad will ever talk to you about is like the history of Zionism, the history of communism, [00:08:30] Stalin's five year plan, like seriously anything you want to know about Stalin's agrarian policy. And so I put in the tape, you know what I really wanted to hear as I love my daughter, I was expecting to hear insights into his problematic relationship with his children, his terrible marriage, all that stuff. But what I ended up getting was, let me tell you a little about Stalin's five year plan. Speaker 2:I mean, he, his therapist just sat and talked about that for hours at a time. You know, you talk about how you don't get so worked up about these very issues. You just mentioned that your father, you're more circumspect [00:09:00] during that 30 days. I certainly was during those 30 days, I had a capacity for equanimity that I had not had before. I had a resurgence in my ability to enjoy beauty, my family to feel loved, to feel connected to the world. Um, I was less irritable. I didn't less judgment, less judgmental. I didn't lash out. It was really like cognitive behavioral therapy in a pill. You know, I had been in cognitive behavioral therapy, I had been in all these treatment modalities and they just hadn't worked [00:09:30] because I couldn't make myself do them. And with the LSD I was more receptive and I was more able to do that work that was necessary to maintain my mood. Speaker 2:I also incidentally, and you know this hearkens back to Jim's work in the 60s I was more productive, way more productive. This was not hypomania. This was like sit down, get to work, focus, make interesting connections, which is again not a surprise. We know that large doses of LSD, sort of more typical [00:10:00] doses cause different parts of your brain that don't normally communicate to communicate in new ways and they want to talk about that. The default mode network. Yes. So the default mode network, I mean in the most simplistic way, this is that part that like Rut that you are in your head that tells you to react in certain ways and it's kind of that directive mode. That was the voice in my head that told me I was worthless and I was useless. I was unlovable and it was a very old, very familiar set of reactions [00:10:30] and patterns, patterns and thoughts and beliefs. Speaker 2:And you know the brain develops patterns. It's what the brain likes to do. An LSD in a large dose takes your default mode network offline. It allows new patterns to form an old patterns to be kind of exploded. I'm too afraid to do an LSD trip. I was still too afraid, but in micro doses, based on my experiment and based on all of my reading and based on the research I've done on the neurochemistry of LSD and on the anecdotal evidence of many, many, many people who have now been micro-dosing [00:11:00] is that a similar function seems to occur with regular micro-dosing. It doesn't take the default mode network offline, but it allows you to develop new thought patterns and new ways of reacting. It takes you out of those traditional unproductive reflexes. And that's the neuroplasticity that you know, neuroplasticity means, you know, the way that your brain grows and changes. Speaker 2:You want a neuroplastic brain. A neuroplastic brain is a good brain. Babies' brains, very neuroplastic old ladies [00:11:30] brands, old dudes, brands less neuroplastic. You want your brain to change and grow and to constantly be, be able to think in new ways. And so you can teach an old dog new tricks with microdosing as an old dog. Look, I always resist anything that comes off as a panacea. You know, anytime you go to like a new age therapist who says, I'm going to work on your job muscles and that's going to solve your ankle pain, your back pain, your issues with your father and your flatulence problem. I see. I always [00:12:00] feel like that's the sign of a charlatan if like one thing can solve all your problems. So I, I'm very careful about making claims about microdosing, but I do think that the way that LSD and other psychedelics work on the brain holds great promise for mental illnesses that are particularly related to patterns of thinking, which, you know, a mood disorder, depression. Speaker 2:There are studies going on now, and I'm curious where they're gonna go with Jeff sessions as I knew both, uh, UCLA, NYU [00:12:30] and Johns, John Hopkins there, I think clinical stage two, two and into three. So they did a very smart thing in those research facilities. They said, we're going to study depression and anxiety in people with fatal illnesses confronting the end of their lives. And it's still Simon, not LSL Simon, not LSD. First of all, most people don't even know what psilocybin is. It's actually the psychedelic compound in magic mushrooms. But LSD, you know, LSD. Ooh, everyone's scared of LSD. It has terrible connotations. Timothy Leary, Ken Casey, you know, summer of love, blah, [00:13:00] blah, blah. Siliciden what's that? Nobody really knows that I, I can't spell it. I mean, yes, I'm dyslexic, but seriously, I wrote a whole book about this and I cannot spell silicide, but to saved my life, it was easier to get permission to study psilocybin and is a lot easier to get permission to give a psychedelic drug or any schedule one drug to someone who's dying anyway, so the studies were designed not because there's something unique about the depression at the end of life, but rather because that was the way that permission could be granted from the FDA and DEA. Speaker 2:The results have been remarkable, really remarkable. [00:13:30] I know they're unprecedented. Michael calling radar. The New Yorker about a couple of articles can is coming out with a book. I said to Michael Dell, I wonder if it's okay that like, I'm, my book's coming out before yours. He's like, oh no, no baby. You go ahead and let's see what happens. First. Mine was constructed as this experiment and then it goes off into the research, into the law. I mean, I, I talk, I spent a lot of time talking about the law and the war on drugs and I want to talk about that. Let's talk about the, the, the racism. I mean, there's never been a war on drugs that hasn't been race based in this country. It's all, I think [00:14:00] the best way to think of the war on drugs as it is a warm people of color. Speaker 2:The very first drug law in the United States was targeted at Chinese opium dens. At that point in time. There were a lot of people using opium, but the typical opium user was a white southern woman who tippled from her laudanum bottle all day long. That's opium mixed with alcohol. People gave opium to their babies to make them sleep. You know, there are all of these medicines, patent medicines that were opium based, but the law targeted Chinese immigrants in opium dens and it was really about [00:14:30] them. It wasn't about the opium per se. If you're of, you know, a wave of immigration, it's, it's characterized as, you know, fear that they'll rape white women, but it really is just, it's financial panic as xenophobia. Marijuana got tied closely to Mexican Americans. And you can see all this rhetoric at the time in the Hearst newspapers about how marijuana crazed were raping white women. Speaker 2:Alcohol is closely correlated with sexual violence in our culture but not marijuana. So again, cocaine [00:15:00] gets tied to African American communities, not because they used cocaine more, absolutely not, but it's a way to target and link and criminalize you're, there were these myths that cocaine use made African-Americans, although of course at the time they said Negroes immune to lower caliber bullets. So somehow, you know, snorting some cocaine would make a person immune to a bullet. And so that's why police departments, at least the theory is to police departments use higher caliber guns. That became the standard. So again, and [00:15:30] again, you see the war on drug tied to criminalizing communities, communities of color. And the latest iteration of this, which began in the 60s and which I thought was ending or at least drawing to a pope full close, was this rabid began with Nixon, went through Reagan, amped up with Clinton. Speaker 2:Let's be very clear targeting of communities of color with draconian prison sentences for drug crimes. So in a world where white people [00:16:00] use drugs more than people of color, you had far more people of color being arrested and incarcerated. You know, in America you go to jail for longer for marijuana in some cases, then you go to jail for murder in Europe, I mean our drug laws are out of control and we saw this massive increase in incarceration rates as a result of people of color, but also women suddenly, you know, women have had very rarely been incarcerated. The numbers were very low because women don't commit violent crimes. There's one genetic marker that you can pretty much use to evaluate [00:16:30] the likelihood of somebody committed and violent crime. And it is the y chromosome. The population of women in prison increased dramatically because of all these drug laws in these mandatory minimum sentences. Speaker 2:And I thought we had started to understand that, you know, across party boundaries, I've, I've had conversations with Senator Orrin Hatch about the injustices of the mandatory minimum sentences and the over incarceration rate. But with the election of Donald Trump in this, most schizophrenia of elections were, on the one hand, there are a bunch [00:17:00] of states that decriminalized marijuana for recreational use. Marijuana is a schedule one drug. At the same time, we elected Donald Trump who put a as attorney general, the most retrograde, racist, malevolent, incompetent, cruel and vicious white supremacist. He says he's going to go after marijuana. Yeah, that's what he's going to do. If I were in the legal cannabis business, I would be terrified to ask you about that. We don't really know yet what you're going [00:17:30] to die or what about those clinical trials that we were just tying back? Will they be shut down? Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know if they're flying under the radar enough. If they have DEA, you know the results that you know the subjects are white. By and large, people are much more inclined to be sympathetic when the subjects are white. I don't know. But here's, I do know the United States has imposed its drug policy on the world through a very aggressive campaign that involved pox, Americana treaties and a kind of putative moral [00:18:00] leadership. So we've dictated to south and Central America. We've dictated to Europe. So when England for example, began a very small but very, very effective heroin distribution program that cut overdose rates, cut crime, and also incidentally got people off heroin. But the United States put so much pressure on the British government that they shut that program down. All the people that participate in that program, most of them went on to die. Speaker 2:So we've managed to impose our draconian prohibitionist view of drugs on the world. But the only benefit that I can see [00:18:30] to having a Cheeto, dusted mad man is our president, is that we have no moral authority. We have no claim to moral authority. Portugal, which decriminalized drugs is not going to pay any attention to a Donald Trump said the American war on drugs has destroyed Latin America. In rich, the cartels, Columbia for a long time was a country that was simply controlled by more in cartels and people lived in this kind of state of incarceration and terror [00:19:00] and this was all caused by the United States war on drugs and now countries have started to reject it. And I think that that is the one benefit of having this America first platform is that the rest of the world can go on and do good cause we haven't used our moral authority very well. Speaker 2:We spend so much money on this war on drugs like up to a trillion now or something. This lunatic for what drugs are cheaper and easier to get, which tells you that they're coming into the country more often. You're not winning a war if drugs are easier to get. You know, LSD is a non-addictive [00:19:30] drug in the entire history of LSD usage. There are two cases, human fatalities that have been attributed to LSD and those are actually suspect. So basically there's no fatal dose of Ellis, no addiction, no addiction. But you know what's more dangerous right now is that we have a situation where we have an opioid crisis in this country. Many of the states that voted so vigorously in favor of Donald Trump are littered with bodies of people dying from opioid addiction, and that is a direct result of the failed war on drugs. Speaker 2:If [00:20:00] you want to treat people and save people's lives, you have to have a harm reduction approach to drug addiction. Not at not a prohibitionist approach. You have to get in there and provide services and help and safe injection sites and safe drugs. This is typically what happens. Someone gets a prescription for O for Oxycontin, for say back pain for which it is not useful. They take it, they take it, they take it, they get addicted. Then their doctor says, well you can have any of oxycontin anymore cause you're an addict. And then they don't have any oxycontin. [00:20:30] So they go out on the street and maybe first they try to buy some pills and they get some and, but eventually pills are hard to find. They're harder to buy. They're more expensive, you know, it's cheap heroin deep, you know, it's fast, heroin's fast, then their heroin addict, and then they're criminalized. Speaker 2:Then they're criminalized. Then they're in the underground market. Then there's no FDA checking the quality of their drugs, and now heroin is quite often cut with much stronger fentanyl, hundreds of times stronger, and people are overdosing because they take an amount of drugs that they, [00:21:00] they think is a heroin, but it actually turns out to be fentanyl. It is a white epidemic in many ways. There are many, many white victims. Certainly the vast majority, maybe Jeff sessions will be willing to listen to some reason. Although again, this is a man who said that no good person has ever smoked pot. This is a man who made a quote unquote joke about the KKK, which he said he was until they, he found out I had smoked. He went there. He was fine with them until he found out they smoked pot. I wanted to ask you about how you approach drugs in your family, but you used the term harm reduction. Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. [00:21:30] So we have, that may be the most radical thing in my book, not the taking of the LSD. I have four kids who range in age from 13 to 22 so these are our rules. We don't lie to our children about drugs ever. And they know we never lie to them. We don't allow others to lie to them. So when they are given misinformation in school programs, school programs on dare, which for many, many years taught all of this ridiculous and misinformation, it's now been improved. But you know, it basically said to kids, you know, marijuana will kill you. And then a kid will hear that message and [00:22:00] then think of their cousin who's a freshman at Yale and an ace student and a wake and bake smoker. And then they reject the whole message of dare. But anyway, they're better now. But like we educate our kids, we inundate them with information and then we have some very specific rules when it comes to pop. Speaker 2:For example, we talk a lot about the effects of marijuana on the adolescent brain. I think there's compelling evidence that the, that that that is not great that it, it does cause damage to developing brains in particular. But we are realistic. They live in Berkeley. There's no way they're going to wait till [00:22:30] their frontal lobe is fully formed before they smoke pot. So after much negotiation, we reached the agreement that nobody could smoke pot. So there were 15 only on the weekends. And if your grades drop at all, you are not only grounded but I will drug test you and you get your drug tests from Amazon, right? Yes. I can test my kids urine. I buy your intestines. I tested my LSD from a kit that I bought on Amazon. Basically I have a supply cabinet in my house that's full of MTMA testing kits. Speaker 2:Cause MTMA is the drug that I'm most concerned [00:23:00] with right now. It, it causes your body to overheat and if you have heart issues or high blood pressure, it's, you shouldn't be taking it. Basically the stupidest place to do it is like in the desert while dancing. Yes. Or at a rate where there's some thousands of people and you don't want your body temperature to be raised. And it also does this peculiar thing. It makes me more susceptible to water toxicity. What people are selling is MTMA isn't, most of the time kids will buy drugs and they'll think they're buying Molly. And it turns out that they're buying something much more toxic. So my daughter's a student at Wesleyan University and [00:23:30] half, 11 kids, I think ended up in the Er having taken something they thought was m DMA that turned out to be a synthetic called Ab Fubu, NACA Spice or k two. Speaker 2:And it was very toxic. And one of them had to be intubated and defibrillated before he, um, and he, he survived thankfully. So I keep testing kids in my cabinet and I say to my kids, those are there, if you ever are inclined to take a pill and put it in your body, first you have to test it to make sure that what you're taking is what you think you're taking because it is not safe to [00:24:00] just, and this has been a success in your household. Yes, and and in fact there have been instances where pills were people, not my own children, but others have taken a testing kit and then reported to me that it was not in fact what they thought it was threw it away. I count that as a life save. If your kid ever overdoses on heroin year, will you want your kid to be around my kid? Speaker 2:Because if your kids around a kid who has him had this kind of harm reduction education, what they're probably going to do is throw them in the bath tub with some cold water, maybe dump them in the parking lot of [00:24:30] an er and they're going to overdose and die. My kids, they know exactly what to do. They make two phone calls, they call nine one one and they say, comment with Narcan. Now we have a heroin overdose and that can cure an overdose instantaneously and they call mommy and mommy comes and deals with the legal consequences. Your last book, love and treasure was about the Holocaust. There is a character in your memoir about your microdosing Laszlo, who I think you met when you were working on love and treasure. Yes, that's such a beautiful [00:25:00] story. So allowing lowered design, his real name is a holocaust survivor, a Hungarian holocaust survivor who became very wealthy in America. Speaker 2:Very problematic relationships, difficult relationships. I'm very depressed and he went on a an Iowaska journey until I met Lazo. I, I never understood the appeal of Iowasca, but Laszlo had this incredible experience. He went to Latin America, I don't know where he's okay, but he had a guide and they had a guide and it was all very safe. So [00:25:30] his father died in the Holocaust. He and his mother survived and he had always felt this sense of, of shame and guilt for having survived. And in a way was angry the way his child was angry at his father for not having said because saying goodbye to him and had felt, even though he knew his way, he wasn't abandoned, that his father was murdered by the Arrow cross in the Hungarian fascists. He still felt the sense of, you know, a child's feeling of abandonment. Speaker 2:And he spoke to his father and he had this incredible spiritual experience that resolve that [00:26:00] pain for him. To this day I became obsessed with this idea of like, did you really speak to your father or is it saw in your head? I mean, and when I was talking to researchers about this, they would always say to me, why is that the question you're asking? I mean, isn't the interesting question that this experience resolved his pain and yet you're obsessed with whether it was real or not, and what do you even mean by real? And that's when you know, it's like, look at the results instead. I have high hopes. I think micro-dosing is kind of, it's like training wheels, right? [00:26:30] I mean microdosing for those of us who are not interested in tripping, we're talking about using a medication, the way people use antianxiety medications, but it's a medication that's actually much safer. Speaker 2:Say yes and less addictive my, but it's not an option. And that's the sad thing, right? And my message for this book is we need decriminalization. And we need research. And first the research, let's do the microdose study at the University of South Carolina. Mike met Hoffer's doing research on MTMA and PTSD with patients who have treatment resistant PTSD [00:27:00] and he has had astonishing results, which makes sense, right? MTMA is a drug that works on memory. It disconnects traumatic memories from the trauma so that you can explore the memory without the the traumatic feelings associated with it. And instead from a place of love and support, empathy, empathy, the MTMA research has the tentative preliminary support of the VA because they know that soldiers are committing suicide at astronomical rates and they have to do something. So my hope [00:27:30] is that the Pentagon and the VA will look at this research and say, we can't afford not to continue this. Speaker 2:You know, my husband and I have used MTMA at the suggestion of Sasha and an Shogun to Sasha was, it was a chemist, a local Berkeley chemist who was famous for bio as saying different drugs or synthesizing drugs and then taking them on him to himself to sort of assess their facts. And though he wasn't the first person to synthesize MTMA that honor goes to Merck. He was one of the first people to try it on himself. [00:28:00] But, um, my husband and I have used MGMA as a marital therapy tool, which is what we would, and it was initially used as, as a therapeutic tool and it's very profound and very effective and it allows us to sort of discuss the problems of our, in our relationship in a supportive and loving way. So I've been doing a lot events around the country and at every event there are a bunch of people come up and tell me they're microdosing and they say it loud and they say it proud and they're not ashamed and they're micro-dosing with LSD or psilocybin. Speaker 2:And that's great. And then there are a bunch of people who come up to me and they asked to speak to me privately [00:28:30] and they confess with great shame and embarrassment that they have a mental illness. And the idea that in our society, you don't need to be ashamed about using illegal drugs, but you need to be ashamed about being mentally ill. That's heartbreaking. And that's something we need to change. So that's one of the things that I as a person with a mental illness feel like it is my job to be public because this is not something to be ashamed of and I won't allow others to experience that shame. [00:29:00] Okay. Running out of time and I wanted to ask you, what is next on your plate? The Vallejo novel to my publisher, I'm working on a TV show that it's based on a true story but it's an it's narrative. Speaker 2:It's not documentary and it's basically about why we don't believe women who have been raped even when they do everything right and I'm working on another TV show about the first women combat soldiers in a legal combat soldiers in United States military history team, lioness in the Iraq war and because I feel like now for the next [00:29:30] four to eight to forever years, the work that I do has to have meaning and it has to have greater purpose and I'm trying to figure out what that means for me right now. If somebody has a about your book, they can go to our website, which is ILR, waldmann.com and there's lots of resources there. There's lots of articles about the research, and I have lots of resources for people with mental health issues, and I have lots of articles about the drug war, all sorts of things. Twitter, Facebook, email, and I'm easy to reach. [00:30:00] That was, I yell at Waldmann, novelist, SAS, former federal public defender and criminal defense lawyer. We'd been talking about her new book, a really good day. How microdosing made a mega difference in my mood, my marriage, and my life. You've been listening to method to the madness. We'll be back next Friday. Speaker 3:Yeah. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

The oldest & largest Ohlone village on SF Bay is the proposed site for a five-story West Berkeley apartment and retail complex. Ohlone descendants and Berkeley residents are calling instead for a two-acre memorial park honoring Ohlone history and culture.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l expertly celebrating bay area in Harris. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today I'm interviewing Corina Google lead organizer and cofounder of Indian people organizing for change. And Chris Oaks, native American activists and Oakland resident. They'll be talking about their innovative quest to stop development on the west Berkeley Shell Mountain alone, the village side [00:00:30] and the birthplace of human settlement on the San Francisco Bay. Come to the program, Chris and Terrina. Uh, you guys have been very involved recently, Speaker 2:the shell mound Aloni village site controversy. And I want to talk about your innovative solutions to your opposition to the development there. What's going on over there? Well, thank you for having us on. We've been working on the shell mound issue I guess since about March of last year [00:01:00] when the developer first took it to the zoning board and there was a few of us, a handful of us that showed up to that first initial meeting in March and the opposition already to the plan. So the plan is to develop the fourth streets. It's 1904th street. What's Bangor's parking lot, right? Spangler is parking lot right across the street. And you know, a lot of people say, well, why? You know, it's not even there anymore, but the [inaudible] is way deeper inside of there and it's way bigger [00:01:30] than um, this bangers parking lot. That's 2.2 acres. It actually goes, um, to second and Hearst. Speaker 2:It goes under the railroad tracks under trued and white Anders bangers and out underneath the overpass. So as a huge area of my ancestors, it's over 5,700 years old. It is the first place that people ever lived in the entire bay. It is the oldest of 425 plus shell mounds or burial sites of my ancestors that once rank [00:02:00] the entire bay area. So many have been covered up. Emeryville is a, was a big shell. Male Emeryville was the largest of the 425. It was over 60 feet high and 350 feet in diameter. Um, it was both the uh, west Berkeley showmen and the memory real Shama was on a 1852 coast survey map. So coming into the bay you could use them as points of reference. So these um, shell mounds were really instrumental for us also as Aloni people to be able [00:02:30] to see out our relatives that were around the bay to have ceremony on top of them to be able to light fire so people can send signals to one another about different things. Speaker 2:So these were, I'm absolutely are monuments to the ancestors but are also sacred sites to the alone of people that exist here in the bay area today. Okay. So you're talking about the unique and significant points about this, the earliest settlement on the bay ceremonial side, a burial ground, and you mentioned some other things. You say that [00:03:00] it's listed on the national registry of historic sites now it qualifies. It is a landmark in the city of Berkeley and it's also a state historic landmark and it qualifies for a national historic landmark. And the development is going to be what, what is it that they're proposing? They're proposing a five story mixed use building with parking, housing, restaurants and stores. It's a pretty big structure compared to what's there right now. Yeah, it's [00:03:30] the local businesses and residents think about this development Speaker 3:at the public comment period. Um, one of the main developers for fourth street came by and he actually has hired an attorney who testified as well. Um, because they are against the development for a variety of reasons. One of which is that parking in that area as anybody knows who goes down there, it's horrible. But then the other one is it's just completely out of size for the area. So they brought up a bunch of concerns about the height of other buildings around it cause [00:04:00] it's going to be a few stories taller than any other building near there, chewed in white. They also came to the last zoning board public comment and they were also concerned about congestion and traffic in the area, which is also something that the zoning board members pretty much unanimously in their comments had mentioned was going to be one of the major issues to this project. Purely from a city planning perspective. The area pretty much has been overdeveloped and so there isn't enough parking. Traffic is horrible and the intersections there are bad [00:04:30] and they're just going to get worse and there's real no remedy for it because it's a kind of secluded little pocket of a neighborhood. Speaker 2:So the draft environmental impact report came out during the holiday season and what happens with a lot of drafty IRAs that come out around the holiday season is that people in the general public don't know about them and don't have time or energy to actually submit comments to the draft EIR. So we were able to actually do a lot of work. There's a committee of us that have been working together closely meeting [00:05:00] on a weekly basis, trying to figure out how to get the word out and to get people to come to the meetings. So they've been having public commenting both at the Zoning Adjustment Board and at the landmarks preservation commission. We've been able to successfully get lots of people to both of those meetings. The last public commenting period at the landmarks preservation commission at the north Berkeley Senior Center. And so getting folks to come out there and speak in opposition and to show people have come out with signs and um, have [00:05:30] stood there in the background and if stayed until one 30, two o'clock in the morning to give public testimony about why they're in opposition to this site has been really great to get public backing of for us to oppose this particular site. Speaker 2:So we've been working on it I guess since they, they released it in November, they gave it to extensions. Um, the last extension they gave we'll go until February 9th. What are you recommending since today is the deadline? What time is the, is the last time can comment and how do they go about doing that? 5:00 PM [00:06:00] is the end of the commenting period and if you don't have time to get it in the mail today, you can go onto the west Berkeley show Mt. Facebook page or the Indian people organizing for change website. You can find and download a copy of the letters that have been pre created that have bullet points of different issues that are in the EIR that we'd like for people to comment too, and you can send that to Shannon Allen at city planning and Berkeley. What [00:06:30] are your major challenges for this project? Speaker 2:I guess the major challenges have been educating people about this place because when you look at the, at Berkeley itself, Berkeley is a small city that's grown over the last 150 so years, but they don't have a lot of history around show mounts. There's some stuff about Aloni people in the past. They see I have a park there underneath the overpass. There's pictures of Baloney people dressed in regalia in the past and stuff, but I think that that's [00:07:00] the problem is that we're always viewed as somebody from the past, right. So to realize that Aloni people still exist here in our own territory. To bring people together to talk about what that looks like, to reimagine the bay area, to bring folks together on a loony territory with Aloni presence. Still here is something that's been a little challenging, but I think that because we've done the work over the last 20 years that it hasn't been as challenging as it could have been at school. Speaker 2:Children learn about the settlements. It's required [00:07:30] in the state of California. I think one of the most important things for just like barrier residents in general is that this is the first place that human beings ever lived on the shores of the San Francisco Bay. This is a place that we, as everybody who lives currently in the bay area, it should be a place that they're proud of. This is a place that's going to turn into another building. We have enough buildings around. We don't have sites like this. This is the first one. It's the oldest one. It also happens to be a burial ground where thousands and thousands of people were buried for over 5,000 years. [00:08:00] It should be a a historic landmark for the bay area. Everybody should know about it. What are you proposing instead? We're proposing we're working with a group that's going to create a plan that's an alternative plan. Speaker 2:That's one of the problems with the draftee I are that there is no alternative plan except to say that we could make it a smaller building maybe and so that's just not okay to demolish something. This sacred, this beautiful, this, this meaningful, illogical side with the museum over it. [00:08:30] It should have something there that instead of just a plaque saying that allone people were here at one time and we wiped them out and they're not here anymore. Cause that's basically what we get. We need to show folks that this is a living culture. People have been coming to the shell mound. My still take my family there. We still prayed there and recently we've taken people there and had interfaith prayer circles. They're over 200 people come every time to pray there together that this is a place that is supposed to be saved. This is a sacred place. Speaker 2:It's a place [00:09:00] that that shouldn't be destroyed. And so what we're doing is we're looking at how can we show this in a way that people can understand all of these other monuments that have been destroyed. Nobody can really wrap their head around what a shell man looks like. [inaudible] isn't there something from the 18 hundreds that I've seen pictures. There are maps that are, that were created. There are pictures of remanence of the shell man, both in Berkeley, west Berkeley and uh, Emeryville. And these [00:09:30] mounds are created by thousands of years of people living in the same place. So it's not like we are wandering around that we had these settlements that were, that people lived at. We were fishermen, so we lived on the water. The Bay actually came up closer. So imagine going into this space and keeping it green. Imagine opening up the Strawberry Creek where my, my ancestors lived next to so that people could see it again today. Imagine having our, uh, uh, structured there in Arbor where we had our ceremonial dances at and having [00:10:00] a mound built there and having structures of what the houses looked like so that children, not only from Berkeley but all over the bay area could come here and actually see that as you said, they, they have to study this stuff. The train tracks are right there and can bring people here to Berkeley. So Speaker 4:proposed a plan for something like that? Speaker 2:Yes. So we have had the archeologists, there's some archeologists that have been involved. Uh, not so much in the planning of the, of what we're envisioning. We have some folks that do landscape architecture [00:10:30] that are actually creating plans for us right now. We are hoping to submit that um, we'll be submitting that along with our comments for the draft EIR. Those things will happen so that zoning board could actually see that this could actually be something different. We either open it up to green space and we say as the city of Berkeley that this is what needs to happen. That we don't need any more buildings down there that we actually are going to respect the Aloni people in the culture and that it's an ongoing thing and yes, we want to help the Aloni people to actually [00:11:00] share their culture and beliefs here in the bay area and at the, and at the very least, leave it alone and leave it as a parking area not to build on it ever. Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness weekly public affairs show on k a l expertly celebrating bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Corina Ghoul and Chris oaks about the Berkeley Shell Mound Aloni village site. [00:11:30] You were the main figure, one of the main figures in a film. Speaker 4:Great documentary beyond recognition. And in that film you created a land trust to solve a similar issue. Can you talk about what that was and I understand also that you are trying to create a land trust here. Sure. Speaker 2:Michelle Steinberg created the film beyond recognition because we were also involved in takeover of our re reoccupying, one of our sacred sites that had two shell mounds on it and [inaudible] Tay [00:12:00] where Glen Cove Leho is right now in 2011, hundreds of people came out and supported us in protecting that sacred site at that including Chris who was on our legal team at the time. We stood there for 109 days taking over that space again and praying and hoping that it would be protected for all eternity. And for the most part that that's what really happened. There was a federally recognized tribe that is from farther up north. Um, it's not their territory, but they stepped in and created a cultural [00:12:30] easement with the park district and the city, which is the first that's ever happened to cultural easement, allows those three entities to have the same rights on that piece of land. Speaker 2:So it will be protected. It would not have happened had we not been there for 109 days, pushing the envelope to make sure that something came through and happened. What we realized while we were there. If we had had a land trust at the time, we could have created that cultural easement ourselves. And so Beth Rose Middleton, who was a professor at UC Berkeley, wrote land for [00:13:00] trust, actually invited me to a native American meeting for native people that had land trusts. And I couldn't understand at the time why I was going to the meeting until I got them begin to hear their stories. And I said, wait a minute, we should do that. So we have decided, a group of us came together and we're creating the first urban native women land trust ever created because Aloni people's land is all urban now just about. Um, but also it's all native indigenous women's Land Trust, not just Aloni land trust because so many native [00:13:30] women have been brought into the bay area on relocation measures during the fifties and sixties has raised their children here. Speaker 2:Their children have children now. And so it's really about giving a place, a space and we're really having to buy our own land back. And that's what the land trust is about. So right now we have done the articles of incorporation. We're working on kind of completing the nonprofit status so that we can go forward and begin to raise money to actually do the purchasing of our land, but land is expensive. Here in the bay area, [00:14:00] the 2.2 acres of land that's across from spankers is going for $17 million. My ancestors, the first place that they ever lived, the first place that Aloni babies were born in this area. The first place of laughter is going for $17 million and if they put this building on top of that, that means that there is not going to be a place that my grandchildren who are laughing and being born on our land can go and pray with their ancestors. Speaker 2:I think that society has come a bit farther than that, [00:14:30] that we can actually say we can actually share this with the first people that tended to this land. What needs to happen before you get your nonprofit status? What remains to be done? We are in the midst. We have our bylaws that were just completed. We are vetting it through the lawyer and the last paperwork needs to be submitted and then it's all good. We actually have a website that's online right now. It's called a Segora Tay Land Trust. You'd better spell that. Yeah. Www dot [inaudible] [00:15:00] s o g o r e a t e hyphen land trust.org and folks can go on it could learn about history in the bay area, can learn about why we created the land trust. There's also something on there called the Sh. Let me tax and Sh Leumi in Aloni language though, Aloni language from this area [inaudible] it means a gift and so it allows people to go on there and to actually help us in finding ways to raise money if they're a renter or an owner, how many bedrooms [00:15:30] they have, how much land tax they could actually pay to help us to begin that process of purchasing land back. Speaker 2:So it's a way for people to be involved. I encourage people in the [inaudible] Speaker 4:and to see that great documentary that you feature so prominently in. Yes, which is called beyond recognition. Definitely check that out. It's a good one. I wanted to ask you if you felt like standing rock and all the historic precedent that said, although right now it might be under siege with our, our new president, but do you feel that that has invigorated [00:16:00] this cause? Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say that I'm, in the last 20 years we've been working on [inaudible] issues in the bay area. We've done walks to show mounds, we've done the occupation, we go to the Emeryville on the day after Thanksgiving for the last 19 years asking people to come and help us give out information to ask people not to shop there. And I think that when people began to see standing rock and social media has been such a great wonder and helping people to see this, see what was happening out there and to actually [00:16:30] follow along. So many people, activists from the bay area have gone out to standing rock. And one of the beautiful things that has happened was that the elders out in standing rock actually gave a directive to young people that were coming out there. And going back home was to get involved with your own local issues. This is our standing rock right now in the bay area. This is our front line. And so young people, allies and accomplices have come together, have helped us to try to figure out how they could do work to help us [00:17:00] to get fundraisers for the lawyer that we've had to hire, have done fundraisers to get information out, have created events pages so that folks will know about it. So it's been a wonderful coupling of between us. Speaker 4:Yeah, it's not over yet. Of course. It's not over yet. It has really kind of lit some fires I think. Yeah, it's been great. You've been at this for 20 some years. How did you Speaker 2:no, you were Aloni how did this all come about? Right. I grew up in the bay area, went to, uh, went to public [00:17:30] schools. My mom always told us that we were Aloni we, she knew that we came from mission San Jose. That's where we were enslaved at. My great grandfather, Jose Guzman was the last one of the last speakers of the [inaudible] language. Can you speak? No, I can't speak it. I can say a few words inside of [inaudible]. My daughter, um, it was her dream since she was about 14 to begin the language and she's starting to do that now and she's teaching my grandchildren as well. So it's a wonderful thing that that's, and it's my hope that I will [00:18:00] learn enough so that I can pray in my own language. So we've always known who we are, but it's not that long ago that California Indians, it was against the law for them to even be here. Speaker 2:It wasn't that long ago that California Indian kids were taken out of their homes and put into boarding schools like my mom and my aunties and uncles. So it was very scary boarding one of the boarding schools. And so for us it's been a real, it's a resilience, a way for people to say Aloni people are bringing back language and [00:18:30] culture and dance and song because our ancestors put those things away though because our ancestors gave those things to people to hold onto until we were able to grab them again until it was an, it was safe for us to come out. And I think that that's really important that Nels Nelson, for whatever reason, created this map with 425 shell mounds way before I was here in 1909 he wrote that map down. But today we were able to use that in order to find out where all of our sites were. Speaker 2:[00:19:00] JP Harrington recorded my great grandfather on wax cylinder and it's in the Smithsonian so we could reclaim our language again. So there's these people that put these things away for us because our ancestors whispered in their ear and told them to do that so that we could come back again and share this with our children and our grandchildren. So it's our responsibility. We are the stewards of this land. We were put here because this was the place we were supposed to take care of in this part of the world, and so I really believe that that's our, [00:19:30] that's what we're supposed to do. Bringing back language and song and all of that is part of the dream part of that, about the importance of that language and culture and why is this important? It's important for the healing of this land. It's important for the healing of the people that live on this land, not just the loaning people. Speaker 2:When you say healing village, are you talking about environmental degradation? I'm talking about racism. I'm talking about the slavery. I'm talking about environmental, I'm talking about the invisibility of Aloni people. I'm talking about all of the [00:20:00] horrific things of the happened since the genocide that was created on this land that needs to be taken care of. I'm talking about the thousands of ancestral remains at UC Berkeley that need to be put back into the ground. I'm talking about all of those kinds of things that need to be fixed here so that we could all become more human with each other. Again, it starts here. It starts with US fixing it with the first people of this land. There was at one point the United States government [00:20:30] had a government to government relationship with, with our tribe. And then there was a point in history where the person that was in charge of the bureau of Indian affairs wrote something that basically got rid of us. He wrote a line that said for all intensive purposes, no money was needed in order to purchase Speaker 3:land for the homeless Indians in the area. Now that takes an act of Congress to actually wipe out a tribe and that never happened, but there has not been any government to government relationships [00:21:00] since then. So it's really difficult to talk to the general public about these kinds of things because the general public doesn't even learn what sovereignty means, what an Indian tribe and federal recognition means in high school. And most kids, like we talk about a kids learn about Aloni people in third and fourth grade, but they learn about us in the past like we don't exist anymore. Well, you have the Indians around here used to do this and they used to do that, but what about the Indian people here today that drive cars and have cell phones and go to Raiders Games? It's always about [00:21:30] the Indians that were dressed up in feathers a long time ago and people didn't dress in feathers everyday. Speaker 3:Those were regalia that we use for certain ceremony, so we have to break those ideas in people's mind, but we also have to do a better job educating people that go to public schools about what does this, what is the responsibility of the federal government to the nations. Many different nations, hundreds of different nations that lived here in the, in the United States before it was the United States and we do a really bad [00:22:00] job in the education system doing that. Part of the history of how Indian tribes were recognized by the federal government comes from the fact that we have a several hundred year history of being Indian people in the United States. One of the issues that we get, especially out in California, is that the westward expansion in the United States followed several hundred years of congress changing their minds. So under the Supreme Court decision of John Marshall, the, he said that Indian nations were what they call domestic dependent nations, which means they're under [00:22:30] federal government control just legally. Speaker 3:And so part of that was that George Washington and the Delaware people, they were talking in the late 17 hundreds and as they traveled west, as the, as United States grew, they had different policies and different agreements with all of the Indian tribes going one by one. We've got about 430 recognized Indian tribes. Each one had their own agreements. And part of that was reflected in what year it was. Who is in Congress? Who was president? Was it, um, Andrew Jackson [00:23:00] who is known as the Indian killer or was it president Washington who in fact was fighting for independence from a foreign nation and all the way until the war of 1812 Indians were a strong part of the United States military or the British military or the French military. Depending on who they were aligned with. So a lot of the east coast tribes have a completely different history because they were actually allies of these emerging governments. Speaker 3:And then when you get past the Mississippi, you had the policies of a few hundred years of Indian [00:23:30] wars, which is why, for instance, the Lakota people and the boots Apache people in Geronimo and sitting bull. And you get these Indian leaders for about a hundred years that were known for the Indian wars because that's when the west was expanding rapidly and they were killing Indians to do it. But the little known American history that we don't know as much is what happened when not the Mexican or the Spanish government got to California, but was when the United States government got to California. So we're talking in the 1850s so that was, [00:24:00] you know, 150 years of Indian policy that had been used by the United States and by Congress. And so you had a completely different idea of how to deal with Indian people by the time you got here. So what happened was that they were keen to recognize as many tribes as possible on the east coast because they were allies. Speaker 3:They were keen to run through all the tribes in the middle of America, from North Dakota, all the way down to Texas and all the way out to Colorado. And by the time they got here, they were purely motivated [00:24:30] by taking the land and they saw the Indian people as a burden on the west coast and California specifically because it was one of the last states. This is where Congress made it a policy to not recognize the tribes in California because they saw them as a burden because of 150 years of us policy with Indian tribe. Chris, what is your background here? What are you doing in this movement? My mom is from England and my father's from the Choctaw nation of Oklahoma. The reason we're the Choctaw nation of Oklahoma's, [00:25:00] cause Andrew Jackson relocated us in the 1830s from the state of Mississippi, which is our actual true home. Speaker 3:That's where our origin stories come from. The Choctaw people were pivotal in fighting in the war of 1812 against other Indian nations. For instance, to Coosa, uh, who is like a famous Indian leader who was very anti-American because he was on the British side. My tribe fought for the, for the United States. We were part of the war of 1812 where a large part of the victory of the war of 18, 12. The reason that we don't have any reservation in the state of Oklahoma [00:25:30] is because we picked the wrong side of the war for the civil war. So that's just a little brief history of how our tribe has been affected over in the state of Mississippi, in Oklahoma, by United States policy, United States Indian policy has changed depending on who's president, who's in Congress, what were were fighting. And where we are. Part of me here is that my dad, his family was born in Oklahoma since it became a state. Speaker 3:My great-great-grandmother arrived in Oklahoma the day it became a state as a settler. She was on the Non Indian [00:26:00] side and my dad's family has been born in the state of Oklahoma since we were relocated there in the 1830s he moved out here because of the air force. My granddad was relocated here as part of the air force. They came to California. So the reason why, for instance, inter-tribal friendship houses, the oldest Pan Indian meeting center in the United States, which is right here in Oakland on the west coast, is because Indians have been relocated to California specifically to the industrial areas like Oakland, [00:26:30] Los Angeles, which is where some of the largest Indian populations are in the United States is because of relocation. Sometimes that happened from what they call the relocation programs to the United States. Sometimes it comes because Indians have overwhelmingly been some of the most active volunteers for the United States military. Speaker 3:Uh, my dad went to cal Berkeley and so that's how my family got here. He actually wanted to fly my mom to Oklahoma to have me and my brother born there because we were the, the first generations [00:27:00] not born in Oklahoma since we were relocated there as a tribe. I went to school at California State University, East Bay and created a degree in American Indian pre-law because I knew that Indian law was what I wanted to do with my life. I remember ever since I was a kid, I would learn about the Indian policy. I would learn about sacred sites and it was something that would oftentimes have moved me to tears. And I knew it was something that I was passionate about. And when I started getting involved with Karena, one of the first sacred sites that I really sat down and worked for was in Cigar Tay, which was in Vallejo in 2011. Speaker 3:[00:27:30] And ever since then, it's been kind of hard to, to not follow my responsibilities, uh, to not follow the privileges that I've been given in this life, whether it be economic privileges of where I was born, but also my history of how my people got here to California, whether it be the Indian side or the English side, taking a step back from the Indian ancestry. For me, just as somebody who was born in Oakland, we need to look around and see the sacred sites that are around us. We need to know the history people lived here for [00:28:00] thousands of years before us and they're still here. And so part of that is acknowledging sacred sites and is knowing where these places are and what they mean. Our generation, I feel overwhelmingly has realized we're now coming to grips with our colonized history as colonizers, as people who participated in the colonization of North America and who also participated in the colonization of California. And we're realizing that we're on stolen land and some people call it guilt. That's one way of thinking about it, but it's [00:28:30] that we have to be more conscious. We have to think and we have to respect the people who are here now and the people here before us. And when you think about how long Berkeley has been a city compared to the 5,700 years that the west Berkeley Shell mound has been there, it's just a drop in the bucket. Speaker 2:So anyone listening today, I'm going to encourage people to go onto the Facebook page, west Berkeley show mouth, um, and to download the letters and to email it and to Shannon Allen's at the city planning, but not only for them to do it. I need them to get [00:29:00] five to 10 people, other people to do it. So if you're sitting at your office, you're listening to this, you have your coworkers, you have your mom, your dad, whoever it is that you know that's close to you and say, this is the right thing to do. As citizens of Berkeley, as citizens in the United States, that the Aloni people deserve to have this place saved. And that we can also ask the zoning board to actually change the zoning of that particular site, even though it's private property to make it a place that's actually open [00:29:30] space. If you want to make that a comment, ask the zoning board to make it a place that doesn't ever get built upon, that it stays open space and that they could rezone that particular lot to do. Just that. Speaker 1:Stop what you're doing. Grab a pen, get involved. I appreciate your energy today, so thank you Trina. Google. Thank you, Chris. Thank you so much. Thank you. You've been listening to method to the madness. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. [00:30:00] Tune in again next Friday at noon. [inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Sociologist and professor emerita at UC Berkeley, Arlie Russell Hochschild, talks about her new book Strangers in Their Own Land- Anger and Mourning on the American Right with MTTM host Lisa Kiefer.TRANSCRIPTLisa Kiefer: [00:00:00] Method to the madness is next. You're listening to Method to the Madness. A weekly public affairs show on KALX celebrating Bay Area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer. And today, I'm interviewing award winning author and sociologist Arlie Russell Hochschild, professor emerita here at UC Berkeley. One of the most innovative and productive feminist sociologists for the last 30 years. Her latest book, Strangers in their Own Land-- Anger and Mourning on the American Right was nominated for National Book in 2016. Welcome to the program.Arlie Hochschild: [00:00:39] Thank you.Lisa Kiefer: [00:00:40] You're known or you're called the founder of the Sociology of Emotion. You draw links between private troubles and social and political issues. Since Thomas Frank wrote the book What's the Matter with Kansas, a lot of people have been examining all this, but nobody's looked at it in an emotional way like you have.Arlie Hochschild: [00:00:57] I had a feeling that underneath all the words that people say about policies and candidates was feeling grounded in their deep experience. I came to wonder it's it's really about feelings. And the only way, best way to get at those feelings is to figure out what I came to call the deep story a story that feels true to you and you take the facts out of it. You take the moral judgments out of it. It's what feels true and that determines where you feel resentful, how you feel envious, how you feel fearful, anxious. It all emanates from that deep story and I think left, right and center, we've all got a deep story.Lisa Kiefer: [00:01:41] You explore this deep story through what you call a paradox in the bayou country of Louisiana.Arlie Hochschild: [00:01:48] Yes. In 2011, I already had a feeling that we were in a period of deep political divide and the sides were getting further and further apart. There was kind of a hardening of sides. And it wasn't because the left was getting more left. It was because the right was getting more right. And I also experienced myself as in an enclave here at Berkeley, California, where I have long taught sociology. And I felt in a geographic enclave, a technological enclave and in a media enclave. And I figured I'd have to get out of that enclave and go as far as I could to a place that was as far right as Berkeley, California, is left.Lisa Kiefer: [00:02:33] What did you use to figure that out?Arlie Hochschild: [00:02:35] I looked at the 2012 results. Reelection of Barack Obama and the proportion of whites voting for that re-election in California was about half. And in the south as a whole region, it was a third. And in Louisiana, it was 14 percent of whites voted in 2012 for Barack Obama. OK, perfect. Louisiana is the super south. That's where I want to go. And who do I want to talk to there? I want to talk to people who are white, older, religious, evangelical, if possible. But mainly I'm looking for people who are enthusiastic believers in the Tea Party 2011. That's who I was talking to. I interviewed over five year period 60 people, 40 of whom were very enthusiastic Tea Party people who eventually, virtually all voted for Donald Trump. I didn't know that going in. He wasn't on the scene. But at the very end of my research in March of 2016, he came for a primary rally in New Orleans. And I had an epiphany. I realized that over five years I'd been really getting to know some quite wonderful, complex people who were deeply troubled, anxious, afraid, felt scorned, and that I'd been studying the dry kindling. And that at that primary rally when Donald Trump got up there and pumping the sky.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:07] about making America great again?Arlie Hochschild: [00:04:09] I had met the match, the kindling, kindling.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:13] That's a great analogy.Arlie Hochschild: [00:04:14] I talked to a Pentecostal gospel singer at lunch one day at the Republican Women of Southwest Louisiana. She said, I love Rush Limbaugh. She saw Rush Limbaugh as defending her against epithets that she felt were coming from the liberal coasts, that she was ill educated, that she was backward, that she was racist, that she was sexist, that she was homophobic and even a little fat and feeling put down. And that was a feeling I heard a lot-- of defensiveness. Oh, you think we're rednecks? You don't think we're as smart as you are? Well, we are. And they are.Lisa Kiefer: [00:04:57] There was a story about the sinkhole. I think his name is Mike Schaff.Arlie Hochschild: [00:05:00] That's right. I met Mike Schaff, at an environmental rally in Baton Rouge. And he got up to speak about what he called the Bayou Corn Sinkhole. He was weeping as he spoke of this. He was holding shoulders of a woman, also a victim of this sinkhole. He said she hasn't been in her house and 364 days. And and he was pointing to her distress. But it was he who was weeping. And I thought I should talk to this man. And I discovered that he was an ardent member of the Louisiana Tea Party. And later, he became an enthusiastic advocate for Donald Trump. And I asked, could I really see where you were born? Can we visit your old school, where are your parents buried. Where did you go to church? Can I get to know your experience and your childhood? And he opened his life to me. My research began in his red truck, going through some sugar cane fields where he's showing me what he called an old shotgun house where he and his six siblings had grown up. The children of a plumber and a homemaker, Cajuns, Catholic, a very rural life. His father had been the plumber for people on the plantation and off. So he was born in the old south. But he grew up working in the new south. The new plantation system. That would be oil.Lisa Kiefer: [00:06:34] The petrochemical plantation.Arlie Hochschild: [00:06:35] That's right. I began to understand why he would look at the world the way he did. I visited him many times. We've gone out fishing and he offered me a window into an answer to the red state paradox. How could it be that it's the poorest states, the states with the worst education, the worst health care, the most pollution and the most disrupted families? And those states which receive more financial help from the federal government than they give it in tax dollars were also those states that were suspicious of or reviled the federal government. I found out that Louisiana was an exaggerated version of that paradox because depending on the year, you can pick out a year in which was THE poorest state. And so 44 percent of the state budget came from the federal government. So it was an exaggerated version. And I found that the issue of the environment kind of exaggerated the exaggeration. And this guy, Mike Schaff seemed like the key to me, if I could really understand him, how he had suffered from an environmental disaster and yet could vote for Donald Trump, who wants to abolish the EPA. He lived on a very beautiful bayou, a modest home that overlooked a canal that led into a beautiful swamp area. He knew all his neighbors. They were his community. And he once told me, well, we need to get government down to size, you know, and have people help their neighbors and friends because the government is doing that for us. It's diminishing community. But actually, I was to discover that what really diminished his community was a terrible drilling accident that could have been prevented with stricter environmental regulation. First there were earthquakes. This was an area that there had never been earthquakes before. And then people began to notice bubbles in the lawn, water. It was raining, looked like Alka Seltzer tablets, and that was methane gas. People were evacuated because it was dangerous. If you lit a match, it could be an explosion. And it turned out to be the fault of a company called Texas Brine that drills down into the floor of the bayou to extract concentrated salt from an under lying salt dome. And that is used in fracking and in other industrial purposes. They knew there was a problem and they drilled anyway. And the state of Louisiana let them do that. So the whole place was evacuated. He wanted to stay on. He got a gas meter, put it in his garage.Lisa Kiefer: [00:09:27] It's a great story. It's unbelievable.Arlie Hochschild: [00:09:31] It is! It could've blown up. He said, well, I'm just looking after my neighbors property. And then he said, actually, I don't want to leave. It was an abandoned community. So he lost his home. He lost his community not to presence of government, but to the absence of government. And he was fully cognizant of this, very intelligent, very mannerly, kind person. I began to wonder and ask him very gently, why wouldn't the government help you? Why wouldn't you want Texas Brine to be more regulated? I think you have to peel away three kinds of answers and one is layered upon another. The first was he saw federal government as an instrument of the north, there's some history to it that the South has felt conquered by the North first and then in reconstruction, carpetbaggers came down and then civil rights workers came down. Then he wondered whether some outsider environmentalists were coming down, wagging their moral fingers. And the second is that Louisiana state government was actually doing the moral dirty work for the oil companies. Louisiana was a petro-state very heavily controlled by oil and petrochemical industry, which subsidizes the election campaigns of politicians. And some of the politicians are themselves oil owners and do the bidding. The Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act are national laws, but they're each implemented by state governments. This state government is in the hands of oil. And so what it presents to citizens like Mike Schaff is a promise to protect. There's a language of protection, but not delivery of that protection. So they're disappointed.Lisa Kiefer: [00:11:22] Disappointed in the state instead of the oil companies.Arlie Hochschild: [00:11:25] That's right. But we're trying to understand the perspective of Mike Schaff and the many others. The government was an instrument of the north, instrument of oil. It wasn't doing its job when people looked at companies and they looked at the government there. They saw the companies were offering jobs. At least that was the rhetoric I was to discover these are highly automated companies.Lisa Kiefer: [00:11:54] And more to come.Arlie Hochschild: [00:11:55] And more to come. They were actually importing Filipino pipefitters. So there were very few permanent jobs, very few. Only 15 percent of the entire Louisiana workforce. And they're also handing out favors. Governor Jindal gave one point six billion dollars to these petrochemical companies as incentive money. They took it from the public coffers to his incentive money. Please come to Louisiana. Don't don't go to Texas or anywhere else. And that incentive money, of course, gave a lot of money to the companies to give out. So there's a donation to the Audubon Society and to a bird sanctuary, football uniforms for the Louisiana State team. So those sort of PR that the company could afford to do. And so people said, oh, well, company kind of generous. And and they looked at the state. I'm paying my taxes for the salary of these officials that are not protecting me. They had allowed this drilling excellent to occur. So the second point was a instrument of oil. And that kind of is the picture of things that goes with that second thing. But I think the biggest of all was that the governments seemed to them an instrument of the line cutters and what I called the deep story. You're standing in line as in a pilgrimage facing the top of the hill where you see the American dream. You've been in that line a long time. Mike Schaff hadn't had a raise in two decades. Your feet are tired. You've worked hard in a tough and dangerous job. Then you see some line cutters, blacks who through affirmative action now have access to jobs that had formerly been reserved for whites. It would be women, who now, through formative action, have access to jobs formerly reserved for men. It would be immigrants, would be refugees. It would even be the endangered brown pelican of Louisiana with its oil soaked wings, because people would say, well, you know, a lot of the liberal environmentalists are putting animals ahead of people. In this deep story, Barack Obama, as they felt it, was waving to the line cutters, supporting them, was sponsoring them, cutting the line waiters out, not representing them. So they felt suddenly strangers in their own land. Wow. I'm here following rules. Worked hard. Can't get there. They didn't look over the brow, the hill of the engine of capitalism at outsourcing, at automation. And so they generalized from that that whatever the government did was now a little suspect. They were white men who were thought of as privileged. And in their heart of hearts, they felt wait a minute, privilege of being white, didn't trickle all the way down. To me, I'm in a tough job. I may not be able to keep it. Families falling apart. And race, the privilege of that also a little questionable. And so for those three reasons, one piled upon another.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:07] And nobody's representing.Arlie Hochschild: [00:15:08] And nobody was representing.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:10] And then here comes Trump.Arlie Hochschild: [00:15:11] That's right .Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:11] And then Hillary says Trump followers are deplorable.Arlie Hochschild: [00:15:15] That's right. How could it be that the Democratic Party, the party of the working man and woman, is losing its blue collar, not speaking to it and not making people feel heard or recognized. They have a genuine beef and they didn't see an alternative to Trump.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:34] It was more of a vote against rather than for. I think I'm going to hold my nose and vote for Trump that they didn't like him. They want to disrupt.Arlie Hochschild: [00:15:44] Exactly.Lisa Kiefer: [00:15:45] You use mourning in the title of your book, and I was curious why you chose that term.Arlie Hochschild: [00:15:51] Yes. I think it's so much easier for us to see the anger often under that anger masked by that anger is a fear and mourning because their way of life honestly is declining, is going away.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:10] And I think they know it, but they don't want handouts. They know that they're on the verge of being in a place where they're going to need them. That's it's a tricky place.Arlie Hochschild: [00:16:20] It's a very tricky place. In a way, I I want to be their messenger out to say, wait a minute, there are real issues here.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:28] And it's not just Louisiana. Next year, half of our country. That's right.Arlie Hochschild: [00:16:33] And there has to be an alternative to the bad choices that that we've been faced with and an alternative to the one we are stuck with.Lisa Kiefer: [00:16:41] Now, what are you going to do with the results of this incredible understanding of these people?Arlie Hochschild: [00:16:47] Yes, I've been giving that a lot of thought. It has made me want to join with someone named Joan Blades, who is a co-founder of MoveOn.org and who has instituted something called living room conversations, getting left and right together to find common ground. I think that's a start.Lisa Kiefer: [00:17:09] And you did come across three or four things that you found common ground.Arlie Hochschild: [00:17:13] Yes. Out fishing one day, again with Mike Schaff. He said, you know, we ought to get money out of politics. And I said, you know what? You're Tea Party and you're pro Trump. But you have a lot of friends in Berkeley, California, who agree with you completely about that. Another thing he said was, you know, we ought to reduce prison populations. This is a waste of life and money and we need to get them back to work. You know, give them their dignity. These are nonviolent offense.Lisa Kiefer: [00:17:43] And you visited a prison there? While, during the study...Arlie Hochschild: [00:17:46] The large Angola prison, largest maximum security prison in the U.S. and the U.S. is the prison capital of the world. That was another thing that there was common ground on and even the environment. Here's the thing I'm doing next week. I'm going down to visit Mike Schaff in his new home since old home was ruined and he is again living on a bayou. He loves to fish. I'm taking my son because my son is one of the five energy commissioners for the state of California. He's in charge of renewable energy, which he is a passionate believer in. He likes Mike Schaff and Mike likes David. So my thought was to all three of us, go out in a boat, go out fishing. I'll hold the tape recorder and I'll say, OK, you guys, I would like David from Blue State, California, environmentalist. And Mike, grew up on a plantation. Grew up with oil. Tea Party Trump. I'd like the two of you to discuss how could we make sure that there's never another bayou corn sinkhole, common ground or not? Let's just go see. So that kind of thing that through churches, through schools, through labor unions, I think we ought to try.Lisa Kiefer: [00:19:10] So people to people.Arlie Hochschild: [00:19:11] People to people underneath this escalating harsh, half true, half not rhetoric at the national level. Let's just see if we can't compare views, notions of truth and do it respectfully.Lisa Kiefer: [00:19:27] I wanted to ask, speaking of your son going and talking about what he knows and he might enlighten Mike Schaff about things he may not know about. What is the impact of facts to these people after this five years?Arlie Hochschild: [00:19:41] In a lot of discussions, people said oh a lot of people work for the federal government. It's just bloated. Maybe 30, 40 percent work for the government. I would leave the interview actually not knowing how many people work for the government. So I looked it up. My research assistant and I. And we found that one point nine percent of all workers in the United States work for the federal government, if you add state public employees to that, county employees. If you add the active military a little bit more, but all together, no more than 16 percent of the entire workforce works for the government. So it seemed larger than it was.Lisa Kiefer: [00:20:28] Right.Arlie Hochschild: [00:20:28] Again, with the proportion of people who were on welfare, that didn't work. We know most people on welfare do work, in fact. And if you look at a food stamp recipients, half of them work for fast food places at pretty close to minimum wage. And of course, the new secretary of labor runs Carl's Junior and doesn't believe in the minimum wage, but they're on food stamps because they can't earn enough. This is not a living wage. In a sense, this is corporate welfare, because the federal government is chipping in to keep people out of poverty because wages are too low.Lisa Kiefer: [00:21:06] General Honoré kept talking about the psychology of the jobs that are provided by the oil industry.Arlie Hochschild: [00:21:12] That's right. The talk, the rhetoric was jobs when it came down to it. There were very few permanent jobs. In fact, Sasol, the largest petrochemical company in Lake Charles, Louisiana. It's developing it's, it's adding to itself and in its material it says two thirds of the new workers being added to Sasol are coming from outside Louisiana. And that's because to run these things, you need chemist with a PhD from M.I.T. that's on the one hand. And you have Filipino pipefitters coming in who are cheaper, actually, and you may have more trained pipefitters or workers from Texas. Only a third of the new jobs are going to anybody that's born and living in Louisiana.Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:03] That's significant.Arlie Hochschild: [00:22:04] It's a little bit more like a third world country because there's something also called leakage. If you look at the money that the companies in Louisiana make, the profits aren't going back into Louisiana. One hundred percent of profits would be going back to Louisiana if we're talking about small businesses. They are people who live there. Gas station owner. And it goes back into the state of Louisiana. But these big multinationals, the heads of them, are not living in Louisiana.Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:37] They're sometimes not even in the United States.Arlie Hochschild: [00:22:40] Absolutely. Most of them not in the United States. British Petroleum. OK. That's London. I'm talking Sasol. OK. That's Johannesburg. Magnolia. OK. That's in Australia.Lisa Kiefer: [00:22:53] The reaction when people are faced with the truth of the facts. What has been your experience?Arlie Hochschild: [00:22:59] Well, I'm not sure I can answer that. I have to go gently back to that. When people responded to the book and I sent them all copies and then invited them to a dinner after the book came out. They mainly checked how I talked about them personally.Lisa Kiefer: [00:23:17] And how important you feel that is that they understand the facts behind this.Arlie Hochschild: [00:23:23] Yes. Yes, I know. But I do think that we have to turn the same self inspection on ourselves.Lisa Kiefer: [00:23:29] Why are no conservative academicians coming in and embedding themselves in the Berkeley enclave and trying to figure out who we are and what we think? It's always the liberal progressives who try to understand everyone.Arlie Hochschild: [00:23:42] I don't think we have been trying to understand. You know, I was looking around in sociology. How much how many other studies there were? There were some, a few. Very, very good ones, but not that many and not many the other way, I think, where we're both stuck in our enclaves. I suspect there will be some right wing person. And I think that that would be a very good thing. Actually, next week in February, we're hosting a Tea Party Trump family from Louisiana where the mother, very involved in the Tea Party and she voted for Trump, but her 17 year old son is a Bernie fan. And so I said to her, why don't you come over to Berkeley and stay with us from us and we'll show him around the Berkeley campus.Lisa Kiefer: [00:24:27] You know, it's great with these living room conversations and the people to people kind of thing. But do we really have that kind of time? I worry about the time factor.[00:24:35] You are right. You are completely right. I don't mean the empathic outreach to the people the Democratic Party has lost because of its disregard of the issues. I think it's one part of a larger program that I would like to see in place. We don't have at this moment something like a loyal opposition that's coherent. Where there's a leadership,.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:05] A respectful opposition.Arlie Hochschild: [00:25:06] A respectful opposition. We're a bunch of very different separate social movements, each with our own cause. We haven't quite cohered I think. We're going to have to learn to do that.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:19] Do you think there are other people in these, let's call them red states that feel the same way you do about wanting to get to know what we think better? Is it equal?Arlie Hochschild: [00:25:29] No, I don't think so.Lisa Kiefer: [00:25:31] OK.Arlie Hochschild: [00:25:31] I think they they want recognition of them. I'm not sure how curious they are about us, but they have felt put upon by us. The line cutters have turned around and started to insult the people stuck. In this moment, this political moment, it's no time to sit back and just talk to yourself. I think this is the most important election, certainly in my lifetime, maybe in American history. I think the shoe is on our foot to become activists as much as people were in the 1960s. There needs to be a discussion of the fear that is felt by people who feel like they're at the at the tail end of globalization and that that has been covered over and not addressed. There should be three pillars and facing forward. There's defending the values and the institutions that are already there because they're going to soon be under attack and we should prepare for that. And the other thing is to put forward values that actually aren't on the table. What's the agenda? What what are the core beliefs? Let's let's put those forward. So first to defend that's pillar 1. Second, to assert, that's pillar 2. And third, to reach out to Trump's supporters, not to Trump himself, but to his supporters to see if we can't get common ground or I think.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:00] and that's what you're working on.Arlie Hochschild: [00:27:01] And I think we'll be surprised at how much is possible.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:04] Did you ever just feel like the elephant in the room was the lack of good education?Arlie Hochschild: [00:27:08] Education in respect and civility, education in respecting the people that make the world turn round?Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:19] True. But I mean, more in terms of critical thinking, like the ability to, you know, enough not to be voting against yourself to understand that the facts like your son going to visit once they understand and someone takes the time to educate, then it's a different story.Arlie Hochschild: [00:27:37] I think if our colleges and universities became supportive places, it might be easier for people to open up their minds to critical thinking.Lisa Kiefer: [00:27:50] What do you mean by that support?Arlie Hochschild: [00:27:52] Well, I think about many of the churches preach that evolution is false doctrine, but those are places that people go to for solace, their community and support. It was the one place they could be dependent and could feel their fear and despair and mourning. And that's the very place where you learned that evolution was not true. And I don't think the solution is simply to get facts out there. I think the solution is to create social support in the projects in universities and colleges where critical thinking goes on. If you understand what I mean, there is an emotional dimension to learning. There is an emotional dimension to politics and everything else. It has to be an atmosphere of respect and support when you are doing this exploration. So that could be a common ground issue. Let's get to know each other, respect each other and do some critical thinking along the way.Lisa Kiefer: [00:28:50] What is the liberal deep story? We are all arranged around a public square inside of which are institutions, a fiercely proud of, a science museum, and there are libraries and fantastic public schools. There is a nature preserve. All of this is public. People who have made it are proud of it, happy to pay taxes for it. It means we're all able to enjoy this together and that that's what the Statue of Liberty stands for. Then, some marauders come in with a steam shovel and they gouge out big chunks of concrete from this. And they take that concrete out of the public realm and they start building a McMansion just for themselves. They're the 1 percent and we're incensed. But wait a minute, you're taking from the public and you're just giving to this selfish 1 percent. There's indignation. There's bafflement and fury at that.Lisa Kiefer: [00:29:59] Arlie Russell Hochschild, sociology professor emerita at UC Berkeley. You've been listening to Method to the Madness. You can find all of our podcast on iTunes University. Tune in again next week at the same time. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Third year Yale Law students, Scout Katovich, Allison Frankel and Hillary Vedvig, discuss their report Forced into Breaking the Law: The Criminalization of Homelessness in Connecticut, and their continuing research in L.A., San Francisco & Seattle.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. Your listening to method to the madness or weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Keefer and today I'll be talking with the authors of a new study called forced into breaking the law, the criminalization of homelessness. Okay, I'm sitting here in the studio with students from Yale law school, Alison Frankel from Marvel, Massachusetts, Speaker 2:[00:00:30] scout cabbage from California and Hillary ved Vig from Wisconsin. And you are all third year students at Yale. And you're currently at the Allard K Lowenstein, international human rights clinic where you just published a report about the criminalization of homelessness. I want to get into the results of your findings, but first I want to ask you to define what is the criminalization of homelessness? So the criminalization of homelessness is laws and policies that [00:01:00] essentially make living in homelessness a crime. So things like laws prohibiting someone from sleeping on a park bench when there's no shelter space for them to sleep in, laws prohibiting loitering when there's no place else for people to be during the day. Both the ways in which these result in citations costing people money in the form of fines and arrests and the general practice of police officers ordering people to move along to get out of the way such that their everyday experience [00:01:30] becomes criminalized. Speaker 2:I'm curious how you got started with this project. I know you're in this international human rights clinic, but how'd you come up with the idea and what were your goals originally? So the clinic partners with organizations on a global scale, because it is an international human rights clinic, and together with these partner organizations, the clinic comes up with ideas of research projects generally that intersect with international human rights law that the clinic could add value to. So [00:02:00] we partnered with a man out of center church in Hartford, Connecticut, who is a social worker and had been working on the ground with the homeless population in Hartford for about a decade. And what he had seen was that again and again, the criminalization of homelessness and these ordinances that prohibit loitering, panhandling, sleeping on benches, sitting on the sidewalk were a huge obstacle to people living in homelessness, getting on their feet, getting someplace to stay [00:02:30] permanently, and it created a vicious cycle of criminalization, fines, losing housing, losing jobs. So we thought that it would be useful to document the issue from a human rights standpoint and to demonstrate just how these laws in Connecticut were costly, were counterproductive, were harmful to the population, but also the ways in which they violated international human rights law as well as US constitutional law. What are the fundamental that have been abridged Speaker 3:[00:03:00] by this criminalization of homelessness? There's kind of three main areas that we looked at. First, it violates your right to be free from cruel and inhumane punishment. So the idea that you can get arrested for doing behavior that is necessary in life. Sustaining things like sleeping, things like standing around, things like asking for money if you have none. The second main camp is certain fundamental civil liberties. Things like the freedom of speech by a pan handling law because you're not allowed to hold [00:03:30] up a sign or use your words to ask for something that you need. They violate your right to the freedom of assembly. People often are living in tent encampments together and police officers, we've seen dozens of times we'll go through and slash those encampments. Loitering laws prohibit people from gathering together in a public space. These laws violate your right to privacy. Speaker 3:I'm again with tent encampments. Police will come in and sometimes take people's belongings. And then the third really big problem here is that these laws are arbitrary [00:04:00] and discriminatorily enforced. Many of these ordinances are so broad. Loitering laws prohibit people from loafing or standing, ideally things that no person would know when their conduct does or does not conform to the law. Many of us have stood outside coffee shops in new haven all the time and I've never been approached by a police officer, but those who appear homeless are often victims of those laws. Apparently there's almost two and a half million homeless people in the United States, maybe up to 3.5 million. Now you're from different parts [00:04:30] of the country, pretty evenly spaced. Is this a problem everywhere? Yeah. We've been also partnering and working with the, some lawyers from the National Law Center on Homelessness and poverty and they work across the country in lots of communities and they look at the criminalization of homelessness and it is a, it's a problem and it's a growing problem. Speaker 3:Cities are trying to deal with the rising homeless population and a lot of times they decide to pass laws that they think are going to control the issues that they believe the rising homeless population are having. So they'll pass laws [00:05:00] like prohibiting panhandling or um, you know, loitering laws because they want to address this problem. And the easiest way that they see it sometimes is to pass laws that then harm people experiencing homelessness. And from what we've heard, it is a problem all across the country in this report. There's great examples where they, they aren't chronically homeless, but they ended up homeless. And what happens to them once they become criminalized? Speaker 2:Um, so one person we spoke to in Middletown, I believe, told us his experience [00:05:30] of waiting for a shelter to open shelters generally closed down during the day. So it was dusk and he was hanging out on the sidewalk outside of the shelter waiting for it to open so he could go in and claim his bed. And he was approached by a police officer and issued a citation for loitering. So again, he had nowhere else to go. He was just waiting for a shelter and he was given the citation. He didn't have money to pay for the ticket, which generally in Connecticut is around $99. Speaker 1:And how did he get the tickets? Does he have an address? Speaker 2:The [00:06:00] officer, when they approach you in Connecticut, they will write you out a citation which says that you've been cited under this ordinance and you owe $99 and then you're given the option to pay the ticket or to plead not guilty and to plead not guilty. Generally you have to call a hotline, send in a piece of mail, or go online. A lot of times, all three of those options are foreclosed to people experiencing homelessness because they just may not have access to stamps, to internet, oftentimes [00:06:30] to phones. And so what happens then is even if they are able to plead not guilty, the next step is for them to be assigned to a court date where they will go in and contest the citation. But the way in Connecticut that people are assigned court dates pursuant to citations is to be mailed a notice of that court date. Speaker 2:If you're living in homelessness, you probably don't have a permanent address where you can get mail. So even if a person goes through all the steps that they would need to do to plead not guilty to a citation, [00:07:00] they oftentimes don't get notified of their court date. So they missed the court date, at which point they are charged with something called failure to pay or plead, which is a misdemeanor, and it triggers an arrest warrant. So there's then a warrant for their arrest that's out. And the next time they're waiting for the shelter to open and they're approached by a police officer. The police officer is going to run their name, find this warrant, and arrest them immediately. And then they end up spending a night in jail, at least before they can see a judge. And the good thing [00:07:30] is in Connecticut, most of the time, anecdotally, the judge will throw out the charges and recognize that this is silly, that you didn't need to spend a night in jail. Speaker 2:We're not gonna push for this $99 from someone living on the street, but the damage has been done because they've spent a night in jail, which means oftentimes they've lost their spot in a shelter. They've had to miss work. They've potentially lost some valuable counseling or drug services, and it really kind of spins people's lives in a way [00:08:00] that is really detrimental when they're trying to get back on their feet. So even though a lot of times the reaction we've gotten is, oh, but these are just citations. When you follow that cycle from citation to failure to pay or plead to arrest, it's more than just getting issued a ticket. It's really can be incredibly detrimental to people's lives and keep them in [inaudible] Speaker 1:poverty. If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness or weekly public affairs show [00:08:30] on k a l x Berkeley. Today we're talking with the authors of a study called forced into breaking the law, the criminalization of homelessness. Just reading this made me, it really opens your eyes to the people you see on the street and here in Berkeley we, I'm sure you have, as visitors have seen a lot of these tents going up and everything. How would you break out the percentages? Who is homeless? It's a Speaker 3:huge mix of people. Um, we've seen after the 2008 recession, [00:09:00] a lot of people who had stable housing and jobs haven't been able to keep up with their rent payments. Um, and they've ended up on the streets. You see a lot of people who are suffering from addiction, people with mental illnesses, people with disabilities, victims of domestic violence can often end up on the street. It really runs the gamut. A lot of veterans, 8% of the national total are veterans and many on the verge of becoming homeless. What I liked also about your study was that you came up with some recommendations [00:09:30] to many different levels of government. Speaker 2:Our overall recommendation is that these laws need to stop being enforced and ideally cities need to take these laws off the books. They're just not helpful in any way and they only serve to keep people in homelessness. Our first recommendation to lawmakers and to police departments was to stop enforcing these laws and to repeal them. But then there are other, you know, there are so many different players in this cycle, so for example, business owners I think often don't realize [00:10:00] that when they call the police because they think having a group of homeless people outside of their business is hurting business. They don't necessarily realize that what they're doing is they're triggering this cycle which may end up putting these people in jail and a lot of times we believe that no one, no business owner necessarily wants to throw someone living on the street in jail. They just don't realize that by calling the police to enforce an ordinance, that's the cycle that they're triggered. Speaker 3:Great. Let's say you have a restaurant and it's been flourishing and [00:10:30] lately a handful of homeless people have been gathering in front and let's say they aren't the cleanest and perhaps there's urine, feces, whatever, on the streets nearby and you own this restaurant. What are the rights of the restaurant owner in this? What is your solution to something like that? Why aren't there port-a-potties set up? Yeah, that's a really good point. And something that we get a lot of pushback from when we talk to people because you know, there are sanitation laws that have to be abided by. And I think our response to that [00:11:00] would be that instead of using laws that are going to put these people who are in poverty, in jail instead increasing services for these people so they have access to places to go during the day so that and who's going to pay for that? Speaker 3:Um, I think that an interesting finding in our report was that it caused with three times more money to jail someone than to provide them shelter. And so it's expensive this cycle that, that cities are engaging in and police officers are, you know, arresting these people. It's expensive for the city. And so if there was a way to maybe use some of the money that it's going [00:11:30] towards jailing these peop, the costs of enforcing these laws could go into more services. And something that else that we learned while we were doing the studying for this report is we don't know a lot of the details about housing. And providing more affordable housing. That's the real issue here. If there were, if there was affordable housing, um, and people had access to the services that they need, then criminalization, homelessness would, would not be as well here in, they're consolidating the services here in the city. But what's happening is they are sending people places they don't want to go. [00:12:00] And did you encounter that in your [inaudible]? Speaker 2:We didn't so much. And the scale of homelessness in Connecticut is so much smaller than what's happening on, on the whole west coast. And that's part of all Fornia is number one in homelessness I believe in the country. Yeah. And that's part of the reason we're here on this trip is to look at what cities on the west coast have done as alternatives to just passing laws that criminalize homelessness and enforcing. Where are you going? So we are in San Francisco now or the bay area and we're [00:12:30] going to be going down to La to look specifically at homeless courts, which are courts that are set up specifically to deal with individuals experiencing homelessness and their interactions with the criminal justice system. And instead of putting them into jail, allowing them to complete programs, mental health programs or community service programs as an alternative to a traditional jail, fine with the recognition that a lot of times people living in homelessness are arrested or encounter the criminal justice system for [00:13:00] reasons that are out of their control because they're living on the street because they have an addiction problem because they have a mental health problem. Speaker 2:And so rather than punishing them, getting them connected with the services they need is a much better solution. And then finally we'll be going up to Seattle to look at the lead program, which is law enforcement assisted diversion. And that's a pre plea system, which means that police officers, rather than arresting someone will immediately divert them to services. Um, so that they never have a criminal record. And right now that's [00:13:30] focused on drug and prostitution crimes. But what we've learned is that 80% of those who utilize this lead program are also living in homelessness. Speaker 3:We're on New England public radio. What has been the impact beyond that, of this report? Is it getting out there? We're doing a lot of advocacy with different cities in Connecticut. Um, so we're meeting with people in new haven now about your results and recommendations. Exactly. Let's talk about those recommendations. I think we started two a minute ago. What we're saying. Number one, don't [00:14:00] enforce these laws. So we would need to have some sort of actual action to repeal them, to get them off the books, which is a longer advocacy campaign. But in the meantime, police officers have discretion so they have the power to just not issue a loitering citation, to not tell someone to move along. Recognizing that it's ultimately counterproductive and unnecessary. And number two, we're advocating for training among officers on how to deal with, um, people experiencing homelessness, recognizing that this behavior is probably out of their control [00:14:30] and we're hoping to link up police officers with social service providers so that they can refer people to services without making them go through the criminal justice system. Speaker 3:You know, we find that in many different areas, not just homelessness, the criminal justice system as kind of the entry point to mental health services and social services. And you shouldn't need to go to jail to get the treatment that you, so we're looking to connect everyone who recognizes the problem and wants to do something about it. Together. We're also to the judicial branch recommending that prosecutors [00:15:00] who also have enormous charging discretion don't bring charges against people for offenses related solely to their homeless status. And that judges dismiss these charges when they are brought and that public defenders are aware of this cycle. And we'll try to use the fact that a client's behavior was necessary. Life-Sustaining behavior as a defense if charges are abroad. So one thing that's unique about most laws that criminalize homelessness is that they are on a local level. So that's true in Connecticut, definitely. Speaker 3:I believe that's also true [00:15:30] in California. So these are city laws that are being enforced at a city level. And so we have also, we have a recommendation for the police training institute in Connecticut that they implement a comprehensive training program that focuses on how police should be interacting with those living on the street in Connecticut. We have a homeless persons bill of rights and that passed in 2013 and it's, it's, I was fascinated by that. I didn't know about that and it started in Rhode Island and now it's being picked up in many states. Not all but many, [00:16:00] you know, it really just in shines and articulates rights that all of us have and emphasizes that you can't be discriminated against based on your homeless status. That you shouldn't be treated differently by the police or by any government official because you're homeless. We like to think of it as a tool that empowers individuals to stand up for the rights that they already have and I think it's still being sort of tested how, how far it could be used. Speaker 3:For example, we are looking into whether or not a public defender has ever used [00:16:30] this bill of rights as part of a defense of someone who is accused of a crime that's related to their homeless status. Um, and so that's something we're going to be exploring more, but we are also planning to encourage local municipalities to pass local versions of homeless bills of rights. And so that's definitely something we're exploring. And it's still early days. Well, you mentioned that criminalization also violates international human rights law. A lot of it kind of tracks rights at the domestic level, but in some areas international law protections [00:17:00] really are much stronger. So the main area we see that is discrimination. So while under US law, you can't discriminate on people based on say race, which you do see also a huge racial disparity. Every level of the criminal justice system and with the homeless population generally. Speaker 3:So this intersection, um, is really much worse for people of Color. So would that issue is addressed somewhat under US law, but under the US Constitution, being homeless isn't a protected class, whereas under international law, which prohibits all [00:17:30] forms of discrimination, your socioeconomic status is protected. Is that the UN? Yeah, so there's um, a few international treaties that are relevant here. Um, the convention on the elimination of Racial Discrimination protects people against discrimination based on their race. Um, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which is one the biggest treaties on your fundamental civil rights and the United States has signed and ratified this treaty. So the US is, we don't usually sign a ratify name. Yeah. So this, so this [00:18:00] is binding law on, um, the United States and under that, um, it protects your right to equal treatment under the law and that convention has been interpreted to include protection, um, based on your socioeconomic class. Okay. How do we look in the world as far as the homelessness? Are we, are we handling it in better ways or do you know, we have seen some interesting cases. I'm significantly far ahead of what I think most courts in the United States would allow. I just wonder how many homeless people actually know [00:18:30] how they're being protected, how, how do they find this out? Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great point. Um, when we did our interviews and we interviewed around 60 individuals across Connecticut experiencing homelessness, and we would always ask them, have you heard of the homeless person's bill of rights? And we would give them a copy of it. And it was, it was a mixed bag. You really saw a distinction based on the community that you were entering. So for example, new Britain, Connecticut had an amazing man. All Dean Burton, who has since passed away, who [00:19:00] was a real leader in the community and organized those experiencing homelessness in the city and was actually the driving force behind passing the homeless person's bill of rights. And so you see that there are the community aspect of recognizing what rights you have pushing for more rights, pushing for recognition and visibility is so important. And that gets back to what Allie was mentioning about this right to association. Speaker 2:And when police across the country enforce laws that criminalize homelessness, it [00:19:30] tears apart the fabric of community that's so important to advocating for rights of any community really. And so I think that there's definitely more organizing work to be done and it's most powerful when it's coming from the community itself. Who gets priority in your state that you did? The study. Connecticut is also kind of unique in that the governor has made homelessness of priority in itself. Connecticut is part of the Zero 2016 campaign, which is a goal to [00:20:00] end homelessness, Chronic homelessness by 2016 just Connecticut. It was at United still. So it's a campaign that I believe that National Law Center on homelessness and poverty, there's 38 communities that have engaged in this or signed on to this goal. And there's only two states that have done like statewide that have done it, but there's other cities that have signed on and other like groups. But Connecticut is one of only two states that a governor, um, you know, announced that he wanted to, um, do this campaign to end chronic [00:20:30] and veteran homelessness. And we did and veteran homelessness late in the year. And um, they said that the chronic homelessness was on track to be, to end in 2016. In order to be considered chronically homeless, you have to have a disability. And so there's a large intersection between disability is and mental. Speaker 3:They've changed the definition. The HUD Housing and urban development gives grants for cities and states to combat homelessness. And their definition of chronic has changed. And the most recent definition, [00:21:00] I don't believe that it gets into the physical versus mental disability. I think that it focuses on physical disability. One thing we really want to watch out for with this goal of ending chronic homelessness is really laudable and exciting. We're happy to see it happen, but we know that homelessness is generally a transient status. Many people cycle in and out of it and many new people could become chronically homeless in the next year. So what we don't want is this goal of, hey, we did a, we ended chronic homelessness, now we can move on to another issue. This is [00:21:30] something that we're going to have to keep looking at cycle after cycle to make sure that we're really halting it. Um, and of course one of the ways to do that is to stop criminalizing people based on their status and driving them further down. What you mentioned before that the idea that it's a community and a population in and of itself, and I've often wondered whether they would start to, you know, organize in a political fashion. Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think it's, it's tough because it is so transient and all of, I mean it's something that I think is not recognized enough is that a huge percentage [00:22:00] of America is at risk of becoming at least temporarily homeless. Nowhere in the country can someone afford a market rate, one or two bedroom apartment on a minimum wage salary. That's crazy. So a lot of people are teetering at ash and in Connecticut. What we found was that 50% of renters in Connecticut are burdened, which means that they pay over 30% of their income on rent, which is very unsustainable and it means that these people are one paycheck away from losing their house. [00:22:30] That's very prevalent here as well with the high rent and so what you realize from that is that this is as much as yes, there is a lot to organize around and there have been really successful organizing efforts and the homeless bill of rights across the country are examples of that. It's also, it affects such a broad swath of of our nation that it's hard to pin down a person or a group of people or highlight whatever characteristics. It's so diverse. It's such a diverse [00:23:00] group of people who are living in homelessness or who might experience homelessness even just for a month. And I think it's really important to recognize that it is and that this is not an identity. This is, this is a housing status here in, in Speaker 3:the bay area. Some tent cities have been raised and then they crop up in another place. What do you think happens to those people and why do you think some of them refuse shelters? That's a good question. Through our interviews in Connecticut, Interviewing People experiencing homelessness, we learned a lot about shelters [00:23:30] and how they can be extremely stressful environments. There's not enough shelter beds for the amount of people who are experiencing homelessness. In Connecticut, a shelter is not a place that you want to go. It's not a place that many people want to be. I mean, you're safe from like the elements of being outside, but it's overcrowded. They're bed bugs. It's a very, very stressful place to be. And so we did talk to a few people who, who wanted to live in tents in their own space and have their own belongings with them and kind of take agency over where they were living though they couldn't afford a place to live. Speaker 3:They did not want to be in [00:24:00] shelters, which is why another reason we don't advocate in our recommendations for increased shelter space because shelters are not a solution. They're a bandaid. Affordable housing is the real solution here. Um, shelters are not a solution. Yeah. Tiny homes, right. There are some movements to, to make things more permanent. But I can understand after, after doing these interviews, why someone would not want to be in a shelter and would want to have more agency over where they, absolutely. And there's the complication too of if you have a family, I mean there [00:24:30] are, you know, different kinds of shelters. There are some dry shelters only. So people who have addictions and other issues, um, drugs or alcohol, there's, you know, the issue of if you have a family, there's very limited shelters and so you have a question of living together in your car or on the street or having to get split up. Speaker 3:Sometimes that's a major issue. So there are a lot of reasons why people would not want to go to shelters, even if there is space. What have you in your research, come across any incredibly innovative solutions to some of this? I know you're partly out here to look at some of these [00:25:00] alternatives, but have you come across any in other states? Yeah, so we think we haven't really found anywhere that's figured out the ideal solution yet, but we're really interested in bits and pieces that are happening in other places. So for instance, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, um, they noticed there were a lot of people panhandling asking for money. And one thing that they came up with is they developed a program where the city people would drive around and offer them jobs that paid above minimum wage for the day. And then they would take them, they would drive them to the work sites. Speaker 3:[00:25:30] Then at the end of the day, they would drop them off at a social services center to try to get people who needed treatment set up with that. So that was a really exciting program. There's a few problems. One, a lot of the jobs from my understanding are physical. So if you have a physical disability, you can't necessarily participate. But the other big problem is that Albuquerque still criminalizes panhandling. So you're, you have this solution, but it's not necessarily leading to a job that's going to pay you enough such that you don't need to beg for money anymore. So you're out on the street and you're still getting a citation and sucked into this cycle. [00:26:00] So we think that that paired with decriminalization and also paired with increased access to permanent housing could be a really interesting idea. So I'm from Madison, Wisconsin. I hadn't spent a lot of time with people who were struggling in this way and this extreme poverty. Speaker 3:And so going out around Connecticut and interviewing these people, um, and finding more about this harm that is really kind of opaque. It's really hard to see unless you delve into it. I think I was surprised by like just how harmful this cycle can be [00:26:30] on how much people in this extreme poverty are made invisible, I guess like put it into the shadows. I mean you just, you throw them in jail, then you don't have to think about them. You don't have to see them. And it makes people very uncomfortable to see people living in poverty talking to them. I think made this project feel very personal and um, it just made me really, really want to think about and try and come up with recommendations because I don't think we just want to document the harm. I think we want to do more because we feel invested. Speaker 3:I'm actually from Massachusetts and most of my work has been around criminal justice reform. A lot of it working with [00:27:00] people serving very long sentences, life sentences, people on death row and in my other public defense work, usually getting someone a low level offence, lower time in jail or something reduced to a fine as opposed to incarceration is considered a victory. I'm and I hadn't yet worked with people where they were facing a fine and realizing just the devastating cycle that justifying for $50, which in the scheme of our criminal justice system, it seems like a relatively small penalty can actually really ruin someone's life. And I think it's so important now when we have a conversation [00:27:30] about mass incarceration to actually broaden that, that it's not just about incarceration, it's about the entire criminal justice system and these exorbitant fines and fees that many people living in poverty cannot afford. I wanted to know what you think the future of this project is and also I'm sure some of our listeners will want to read this great report and how would they access this online? Speaker 2:We are, you know, all graduating in May, but between now and then we're going to be doing some intensive advocacy in Connecticut [00:28:00] with cities across the state and potentially also at the state level to try to get our recommendations implemented there. Um, we're out here for the next week and a half on the west coast to look into more detail at these programs we've mentioned that are alternatives to criminalization of homelessness, to see if, if we could make recommendations in Connecticut to implement any of these programs in addition to decriminalizing, that's really what's on deck for us. Snack. If listeners want to read the full report, it can be accessed [00:28:30] at the Yale law school website. Pacifically. If you were to Google Yale Law Lowenstein, l, O, w, e n, s, t, e, I, n, that should take you to the Lowenstein website and there should be a link pretty prominently to our report. They can download a pdf, download the PDF. There's also an executive summary if people are short on time. Speaker 3:Well I highly recommend this a reading as especially for lay people. It just really lays out very clearly what the laws are protecting, [00:29:00] not just homeless people, but all of us Speaker 2:Berkeley law has actually put out similar reports looking at the criminalization of homelessness across the State of California in conjunction with the Western regional advocacy project and specifically the policy advocacy clinic at Berkeley Law. Um, so I'd recommend if people out here on the west coast and especially locally in Berkeley, are interested in learning more about this. I'm looking into the work they've done and they've put out reports that document that these laws are on the books [00:29:30] in Berkeley and across the state of California as well. I think Berkeley has at least a dozen laws that criminalize homelessness. Whether it's about giving someone a ticket for sitting on the sidewalk or you know, not allowing them to have a shopping cart, a variety of, of laws like that. So they're doing really good work. Speaker 1:Well, I'm really grateful having you three on the program. It's been really fascinating. And the study I highly recommend forced into breaking the law, this criminalization of homelessness. So check it out. Thank you for being on [00:30:00] the program, and you've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley, celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. Just look for the method to the madness. Tune in again next week at this same time. Speaker 4:[inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Niklas Lollo interviews Bike East Bay Executive Director Renee Rivera, who works toward a vision where "bicycles are well integrated into the transportation system and are a key part of our thriving communities." On the show, we traverse the history of bicycling advocacy, discuss Bike East Bay's recent efforts towards inclusive and accessible biking, and take a look at how bicycling advocacy can fit within broader social justice efforts.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Yeah. Method to the madness is next. You're listening to the method to the madness. Okay. Biweekly Public Affairs show on KALX Berkeley Showcasing Bay area innovators. I am your host Nicholas Slalom. And this week we have Rene Rivera, the executive director of bike, East Bay, a bicycling advocacy organization. Hi Renee. Thanks for coming onto the show today. Um, I really appreciate it. And do you mind if I ask you how you [00:00:30] arrived here? Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, thanks nick for having me on and I got here by Barton bike, which is one of my favorite ways to get around. Speaker 1:Hmm. Yeah. And so I guess we'll just jump right into it. Um, can you take us through the history of bicycling advocacy? Speaker 2:Um, actually we'll go back to the early days of bicycle advocacy in, um, in the u s there was a very organized group that's still around called the League of American bicyclists. And in the, [00:01:00] um, late 18 hundreds, they were actually the ones who advocated for paved roads. Cars benefited, but it was actually the bicycle movement that brought us paved roads, smooth paved roads to ride on. Um, so bicycle advocacy has a long and storied history here in the u s Speaker 1:oh yeah. Wow. Um, what I had associated with, but maybe it's because I'm a millennial is, um, maybe I thought the furthest back at when was critical mass. Speaker 2:Right. So yeah, [00:01:30] I don't know, that's kind of like the was the second golden age of bicycle advocacy. But just to note, the first golden age was in the tent late 18 hundreds. And then around, um, in the mid seventies, actually along with Earth Day was when bicycle advocacy started to kind of get a resurgence. And there were a lot of people who biked across the country for the centennial, they called it the bike centennial. And then there was, you know, um, [00:02:00] breaking away and other popular media that popularized bicycling. And so in the 70s, there was this big resurgence and that was when bikeys bay then named East Bay Bicycle coalition got its start actually in 1972 when Bart opened, because at that time Bart did not allow by at all. So that was kind of a instigation for some folks here in the East Bay to organize. And on the same time [00:02:30] San Francisco, the San Francisco Bicycle coalition got started though. Speaker 2:The interesting thing is East Bay Bicycle coalition is the, we're the longest continuously operating bicycle advocacy group in the bay area. So the SFBC got started the same time and then they went defunct in the 80s though we actually had a continuously operating, um, organization and then in the 90s with the start of critical mass in the mid nineties, that was [00:03:00] a time when a lot of people got involved. And that's in fact when I got involved with bicycle advocacy in 1996. So why did you get involved? What about, um, was it something about critical mass or, I read that you were part of the SFV uh, bike coalition. Yeah, I did get involved with the San Francisco Bicycle coalition in 90 6:00 AM a lot of it was because I bike to work every day. And in those days there weren't that many of us. And I was, I was living, um, in downtown San Francisco and working [00:03:30] out in the Presidio and the at the exploratorium. Speaker 2:And so I would ride out Polk street every day and it was horrible. Like literally every day I felt like my life was being threatened, you know, people were honking at me, um, you know, trying to run me off the road, yelling from their cars. One night my girlfriend was riding home from work on Polk Street and someone brandished and axe at her out of their car. Like it was really a hostile [00:04:00] environment. And, um, I learned about the San Francisco Bicycle coalition, started going and volunteering and then I pretty quickly got involved with a campaign to get bike lanes on Polk street. They took us five years. It was a long campaign, but at the end of it they removed a lay in of, uh, of travel, Carlene from Polk Street put in by clans for part of the way. And, um, Sheros if you're familiar with those the rest of the way, [00:04:30] you know, if not a perfect project. Speaker 2:But my life was so substantially improved and certainly my stress levels went so far down because I could ride to work and I was, you know, like not yelled at and I had a much more relaxing daily commute and I was like, wow, I, you know, this is maybe the thing in my life I've done that's had the most impact [00:05:00] on my quality of life and probably other people's quality of life. So I was really hooked at that point by what you can do to actually change, change the streets for the better. It's a really interesting story because I'm not, I guess not to get into the psychology of it too much, but you were mainly talking about how drivers were yelling at you or brandishing axes, um, but that adding in bicycling infrastructure, did that [00:05:30] change, um, the interactions with the drivers as well because you sensibly took away a lane? Speaker 2:Right? Absolutely. And it changed because now there was space. Um, there was still some shared space, but there was, you know, some separated space, so the bike lanes and there was just more room for everybody. Um, the whole environment became more civil and you know, I, there was a lot of worry drivers. We actually went, me and some other [00:06:00] folks on the campaign talk to every single business on Polk street from end to end, many of them several times. And um, they were like, this is gonna be some of them. Some of them were like, great, and that's not home. We're like, this is going to be terrible. People aren't gonna be able to come to our businesses. Polk street's going to be backed up all the time. And then after the, you know, initially went in as a trial, a six months trial, which is something we do a lot in bicycle advocacy. We say, let's try it for six months. And I will say in the [00:06:30] bay area, I should knock on wood. Um, there, those trials haven't come out. There are places in that, you know, the places where it has, but pretty much so we came back in six months, talk to those same businesses and said, well, what do you think? And they're like, oh, did it used to be different? Literally like, oh no, it used, it's always been this way. There had no perception of actually there being a change. Speaker 1:Yeah. So was um, that's similar to I guess [00:07:00] the bike's on Bart, um, recent pilot that they a few years ago a bike Eastbay was had a hand in or um, yeah, I guess other infrastructure that you put in. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2:I mean bikes on Bart, again, there was a lot of concern but a lot of good support. We did a pilot, um, now I can't even remember how it was maybe going to be nine months or something. And then once that happened it was like, oh, well this is just the way the world works. And [00:07:30] um, and people are, again, it's like bringing civility like I saw on Polk street making, making that space for bikes on the street, brought civility to the whole street and on Bart. I see that too. Like I just see what, what, you know, kind of accommodation and civility people, you know, how they treat each other on Bart, whether you bring a bike or not. Like there's the bike space on the car. I come onto the car, someone just sees that they move out of [00:08:00] the way. There's just this real, that having that designated space just allows for a level of um, you know, kindness and civility in our, you know, Speaker 1:to you design it into this space. Um, that people begin to respect that as a, as an integral part of that space. Yes. Okay. So you talked about the first generation in the late 18 hundreds [00:08:30] you talked about the second generation around Earth Day in the 70s. Are we in a third generation or not yet? Speaker 2:I would say like we're at a fourth generation because the 90s were such a time, at least here in the bay area where there was this, this incredible revitalization of bicycle advocacy and critical mass play. The, you mentioned that already played real role in getting people organized. And I mostly can speak for San Francisco because [00:09:00] that's where I was that and then you know, people, people were coming together and community around critical mass and just having that experience of when you are in critical mass, that was the whole street was bikes, you know? And we were like, oh this is, it created this kind of Utopian vision of what it could be like that'll, that was very motivating of political activism. And then the city pushed back a little bit, you know, and Willie Brown said, oh how [00:09:30] many people, you know, there was this one moment when he was out like talking to a critical mass group right around the time when things were getting contentious. Speaker 2:And he said, kind of an aside, how many people here do you think really vote? Maybe two. And then that really like that remark like instigated bicyclists again to get organized and particularly around electoral politics, which many of us are involved in now [00:10:00] and really like saying, oh, there is a bike vote here. And we really have power. And that's like almost the beginning of what people now call the all powerful bike lobby. Oh really? At least in San Francisco and a few other places where there is just this recognition that we're a very organized group that has uh, you know, has a place at the table and is really a group with some political clout. Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, it seems like every electoral cycle there is a new measure like metric BB [00:10:30] or measure x x. Um, they come off that the bicycling lobby is really pushing for, and also your work on Fulton Street in downtown Berkeley was all the a bike coalition or bicycling advocacy at DNC group. Yeah. So Speaker 2:that was, that was a really, for us, that was also a really powerful moment in terms of kind of one of the big barriers is just how slow change happens in cities. Right. And [00:11:00] just to briefly tell the story on Fulton Street. Um, one of our members, Meg Schwarzman was uh, who, uh, is a researcher here on the campus at cal, was riding home on Fulton street at the end of the day and um, was hit, although she was very visible, bright green jacket helmet, like doing all the right things, you know, her life was saved by the, the fire crew who came [00:11:30] and, and got her incredibly quickly to the trauma unit at Highland and um, just a miracle kind of a miracle. Like really, she, we are very lucky that she survived and it was a very galvanizing moment because, uh, but bikeys bay has been working on this particular gap and the bike network for 15 years and we'd been asking and we had even as recently as a year before when that street was being repaved, we brought it up again. Speaker 2:We [00:12:00] said, hey, this is on the part of the bike plan. Are you putting the bike lanes in when you repay it? And they were like, oh we need to take, we need to study it some more, you know, which is often the answer. And so then again it Kinda got dropped. And so we brought all of that immediately in a letter to the city manager saying, here's the whole history here. Is this tragic, you know, at that point we didn't even know if meg was going to survive the, you know, we are calling on the city to act and we asked, that was in February [00:12:30] and we said, we are asking you to put a bike lane on the street by bike to work day. So we're giving them three months. And I don't know that the city of Berkeley has ever done anything in three months, but they did it. Speaker 2:And it was, it was completed Wednesday night before bike to work day on a Thursday morning. But they did it. And it's a very well designed project. It's right now, it's the example we point to for protected bikeways in the east w a spay, it's just a few blocks, but it's, [00:13:00] it's really like a perfectly designed project, perfectly executed. And they did it in three months, which is showing what's possible. You know, we don't want every project to have to have be pushed by a tragedy, but we I think can get much quicker response. And right now the projects that Berkeley is roll, going to be rolling out in the next year are going to be excellent projects. We have about 10 projects in the pipeline right now [00:13:30] that we're expecting to see on the ground in the next year. And so Berkeley's put, put out a like comprehensive master plan. Speaker 2:Your organization has called one of the most progressive in the country. I'm wonder if you could try to describe what that, what the best bikeway looks like. Yeah, right. I think, you know, what I would say is more, you know, it's easier to describe the experience of being on a protected bikeway. You know, in [00:14:00] one thing that was a real turning point for me was when the green lanes went in on market street in San Francisco. And you know, I was someone who rode market street almost every day and it was always a white knuckle experience. And then they put these green lanes in with some posts really to keep, keep, make that separated space for bikes. That's just very clear to everyone. This is bike space. And my experience riding that for the first time was like this. [00:14:30] Ahh, like I felt like, oh, I'm on market street but I can relax a little bit. Speaker 2:I feel like my, my nervous system is like, it's ramping down. You know, it's just this very different visceral experience of um, you know, of it just maybe like, you don't know if miss realize how tense you were until all of a sudden you get in that space and you're like, oh, I'm relaxing. And for me the bike, uh, the protected bike [00:15:00] lanes on Telegraph, um, again, it's that same kind of experience where you're like, all of a sudden your, you've got your by the curb, the parked cars are out to the right. Uh, I'm sorry to the left. You're in your own space and you're not like, oh, am I going to have to watch out for a car door? Or, uh, you know, and there's still a few design issues to work out on telegraph. So there are, I do recognize particularly at intersections [00:15:30] that design is not, it is a, you do have to worry about cars turning right across the bike lane on that project and the Berkeley projects that are coming are going to be a lot better. So we'll really be able to see a intersection design that feels safer. Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I think one of the, uh, probably one of the larger frustrations for bikers is you have this new bicycling infrastructure, but then there's a huge [inaudible] Speaker 2:yeah. That, yeah, and that's been the focus [00:16:00] of our work. What we're really working towards is what we think of as a low stress network. So you should be able to go from the start to end of your journey on bike lanes or bikeway. Is that really where you feel safe? Um, and we don't have an example of that here. I mean maybe if we, you go to Davis, that's a place where you could have that experience in the u s but there's not variance and that's what we're trying to bring to the East Bay. [00:16:30] And Berkeley is the city that's the farthest along in that regard. We already have except for Davis and uh, maybe boulder. It has the highest rate of bike commuting in the country. We have the, um, Speaker 1:yeah. And this sort of gets at another part of your work is to make biking more inclusive because it's typically been associated with a certain culture and maybe that's coming out of the critical mass, sort of more of a confrontational [00:17:00] biker who's willing to take risks, say, um, and that is maybe turned other people off from biking, bicycling. Is there any other work you're doing in that way to make, um, the basically more inclusive? Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, there's a few, I mean, there's a number of different things we're working on right now. I probably won't even get a chance to touch on all of them. Um, one I will mention is, uh, if you look at who's biking in the East Bay or anywhere in the country, what you see as far more men [00:17:30] than women. And in Alameda county it's for every two men. That's one woman. So basically two thirds of riders are men. And um, that I think speaks a little bit to what you're saying. I may be, um, women are a little bit more hesitant to take risks to bike in a situation that feels, um, that feels dangerous. Um, also women W it's studies show they [00:18:00] have much more complicated trips. Women are often the ones taking kids to the places they need to go. They're a lot more air that they do a lot more errands just because still in this country women do a bit more of the, um, the work of maintaining the home. Speaker 2:And so that is another reason why it's hard to bike. Um, so one of the initiatives that we've started in the past year is a woman bike, um, kind of, uh, program. [00:18:30] It's, we've got, we were doing rides, we've been doing a book club, we've been doing a whole bunch of different meet and greets, just getting women together to talk about what are the barriers to biking. We're doing some rides together, kind of increasing the comfort level with riding and that's, it's just been a great organizing tool to bring more women into cycling. Um, another real factor for us is just looking at the geography of the East Bay. You know, we're here in Berkeley where the most [00:19:00] people bike of anywhere in the East Bay. Um, our office is in Oakland. Again, that's a place where we've got more people biking than other areas. Um, and our membership reflects that. Speaker 2:If you look at who's a member of that, of bikeys bay, it's probably 85% is the Oakland Berkeley Metro area. And so one of the key strategies came out of our strategic plan is to really be lifting up some of [00:19:30] the suburban communities and communities that are outside of the urban core. So we've been working on supporting local volunteer groups in one of the ones that's been super successful is in Concord there by Concord. Um, we also have a group, a bike walk, Castro valley. Um, there's just fantastic partners that we work with up in Richmond, a rich city rides and this has been, um, [00:20:00] it's really focused on trying to get more geographic diversity in the East Bay, but it's also as we're supporting and lifting up local leaders in all of those communities. It's also been a way to get, um, to get a more diverse set of people involved with bicycle advocacy and, um, more racial diversity, more income diversity. Speaker 2:And that's [00:20:30] a really key part of our work right now is, um, you know, identifying the leaders that are already out there for ourselves. You know, they, they're already, he had no, the community recognizes them already. I'm not saying we're like, you, I know waiting them leaders because they're already doing amazing works in the, in those communities. How can we amplify that? How can we support through helping [00:21:00] with, um, you know, training on advocacy on how to work with your city staff and elected officials on helping with fundraising and supporting those groups to raise money in their community to, you know, buy Concord for instance, has, um, they do a bike tent at the farmer's market cause they're a community that doesn't have a bike shop. So they're out there doing repairs, all volunteer run [00:21:30] at the farmer's market on the weekend. And that's been just an incredible community building, um, project and has brought a lot of new people into, into bicycle advocacy. Speaker 1:Yeah, that's amazing. I'll bring this up just because it's, um, it's been said, but I think it might be an overly reductionist argument, but that improving bicycle access, um, often benefits developers or, um, encourages gentrification or happens after [00:22:00] gentrification has already taken root. And I wonder if you have thought about that? Speaker 2:Well, yes, we have been thinking and talking a lot about this issue. It's a very real issue in the East Bay. Um, actually to use an example from Concord, we were working on with our bike Concord group on, uh, a bike lane project, uh, you know, in the community. And there had been, we had just had a great win on another street by cleans, went in and then, um, [00:22:30] there was a apartment building on that street where there was a big Gregg rent hike, uh, as they don't have rent control there. And, and the community was like, Whoa, you know, let's pause on this other, the second project that we are working on because it looks like maybe there's a connection here with, um, with rent increases that are going to be displacing people. Our philosophy, especially with the local [00:23:00] working groups of these local groups is you are the lead, you know, your community. Speaker 2:And it really needs to be that two way conversation. So we're, so we're like, okay, let's pause. Um, let's really look at what else we need to do in the community. And so it may be in that case, maybe actually the effort needs to be around a read control measure. This is the reality. The East Bay is gentrifying so fast people are being displaced. Um, you [00:23:30] know, we see it within are moving from maybe East Oakland out to Antioch. Um, the reality is our people are, their transportation choices in those places like Antioch that they're moving to are really poor. Um, and this is really having, it's a huge displacement is a transportation issue. Yeah. Um, one that's an interesting one right now is bike share is coming to the East Bay. Super exciting. So one of the things that we're working on is making sure that [00:24:00] um, low income communities in Berkeley and Oakland being engaged now because bike share is another, is going to be another piece of gentrifying the East Bay and it also has the opportunity to be another great low cost transit system within the East Bay. So it has this great potential to benefit low income communities and it has this great potential to harm low income communities. One question I have, it's just total digression, [00:24:30] but Speaker 1:was um, your, um, advocacy for the, the bike path across the bay bridge. Um, some have argued that it's, you know, maybe not the best use of funding or resources. Um, why do you see it as an important project? Speaker 2:Yeah, the Bay Bridge is one that we've been working on like [inaudible] for decades. So it is a, it's a project very near and dear to, uh, to all of us and to [00:25:00] our longtime members. Um, just the vision of being able to bike all the way across the bay. We've gotten access on, most of them are access on Richmond. San Rafael is actually coming in a year, which is very exciting. Um, so we've almost got all the bridges now accessible. And just to speak to the funding piece, um, what's most important for us is that this is not funding that is being taken from some other project. So, um, the plan for funding [00:25:30] the, the bay bridge is that it would be part of a total increase to add another dollar to the bay bridge toll that would come to the ballot, um, probably in 2018 and the funds for the funds from that dollar generate, I can now, I don't remember off the top of my head, let's say it's like $20 billion or something like that or no, that's, and that's, that's less than that, but it's in the billions. Speaker 2:The idea is it'll [00:26:00] be about $300 million. So we would say perhaps about 15% of that, of that next regional regional toll measure. And um, those are funds that can only be used for the bridge, um, only be spent within the Ar, you know, seven major bridges around the East Bay. So I mean, around the bay area. So it's not like that money from the toll increase can be, can [00:26:30] go to build, build out some awesome protected raised bikeways and Berkeley, you know, it does have to stay on the bridge or within the bridge district. So it's not competing other funds. Yeah, I think that was that sort of the key point. And we actually feel like those, that investment of when you look at how many people are gonna use it. Yeah. Um, right now we're anticipating it would be over 10,000 people a day using the bridge between tourists and [00:27:00] commuters. Speaker 2:And also there's gonna be a lot of people just commuting between treasure island in San Francisco. You know, when you look at it on a user basis, it's a pretty, pretty low cost investment and it's the only way to really add capacity on the bridge. Aside from say, putting a bus only lane, which we also think would be an awesome idea. I think we've covered this, but is there anything you'd like to add about where you would like to see bike Eastbay? Um, go in the future right now? Um, the direction, [00:27:30] uh, you know, we're all, I'm living in a little bit of a new world since the election. Um, and um, one of the ways that, that we're see that really impacting our work is that I think we have to be even more conscious of vulnerable communities. Of those that are going to be really impacted under a Trump administration. Speaker 2:Um, so how does our work intersect with [00:28:00] that? How are we even more careful that we're not, um, you know, that we're not causing displacement, that we're not, um, any impacts around police enforcement or another one that we're looking at very closely right now. Um, because, you know, the reality that we're in now is that there's a disproportionate effect of enforcement on people of color. Um, so that's a place where in [00:28:30] our partnerships with police departments, we're going to be focusing on those impacts, um, and making sure that our work is not causing additional harmful impacts in those communities. Um, if anything, how are we helping in that situation? I think under this new climate, we all have to come together. We can't be working in our bike silo. You know, we've been already talking a lot about displacement, but we need to be working more collaboratively and more proactively [00:29:00] around those issues. Speaker 2:Otherwise I would say, you know, how are we going to be relevant, you know, in this time, you know, really building all of those kinds of relationships are gonna be key to our success in the next few years. We have to be, um, seeing what the community needs and supporting it even if sometimes it is not directly a bike issue. How can people get involved or, yeah. Um, I would point people to our website [00:29:30] like eastbay.org you can go to slash campaigns just to get an overview of all the places we're working in, the campaigns we're working on. You can go to slash education to take a free class. I want to mention for adults to learn to ride because not everyone knows how to ride a bike. And we have a great program that has a, has an incredible success rate, like 90 plus percent of getting people from not being able to bike within [00:30:00] three hours to being able to bike. And we would love to get people, we've got so many great campaigns going on around the East Bay. I'd love to get people involved. So check it out and also join as a member. We are a membership based organization and that's how we get the money to do the work we do. Yeah. Wonderful. Thanks Renee, for coming on. I really appreciated it. It was inspiring and educational and I learned a whole lot. All right. Thanks Nick for having me on. 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Niklas Lollo interviews Hawaii Wildfire Management Organization Community Outreach Coordinator Pablo Beimler, who works with government agencies, nongovernment organizations, and communities on collaborative wildfire protection efforts across the Hawaiian Islands. HWMO's prevention, preparedness, and mitigation efforts are making a difference to bring all stakeholders to the table with the common goal of reducing the growing wildfire hazards statewide.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a biweekly public affairs show on KALX, Berkeley Showcasing Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Nicholas Thalo. And this week we are visited by Pablo Byler, the community outreach coordinator with the Hawaii wildfire management organization. Tell us about the work his organization is doing to combat wildfires in Hawaii and landscape more commonly thought of as a tropical paradise than [00:00:30] one that shares the same afflictions as California drought and wildfire. Hey, Pablo, welcome to the show. Hey Nick. Thanks for having me. Uh, it's pretty much a paradox like Hawaii, we think of this place as a tropical paradise, yet it has a large proportion of wildfires. Why is that? Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's indeed true. There's a misconception that, you know, Hawaii is, like you said, tropical wet all year round. Um, but in the, in reality, [00:01:00] um, every island in Hawaii has a leeward and windward side. And on those leeward sides, you get these really dry conditions. You get some areas that actually are drier. Um, they get less rainfall than Tucson, Arizona. Um, and we actually have this wide range of, um, different climate zones within even these leeward areas and on the windward sides. Um, so for one we have a very diverse landscape, so you'll see landscapes that you have, um, here on the mainland that, um, are mirrored [00:01:30] back on the islands and to go along with that. We also have this year long growing season for plants to thrive. Um, even on the dryer, dryer sides. And unfortunately the plants that do grow on those dryers sides are mostly invasive fire prone, um, plants. Speaker 2:And what we've seen is this kind of increase in the amount of wildfires all across the state really. And even in the Western Pacific too, um, where we're getting, you know, [00:02:00] more, more wildfires, partially because of the types of vegetation that are there, but also because we're having an influx in population and from a lot of the data that we've been working through, we've basically been able to identify it that, um, indeed wildfires are correlated to people. About 99% of our ignitions are actually started by people. So you have the fuels, you have the ignitions, and of course we have plenty of wind that blows through our islands. So [00:02:30] when you have those three, they make up the fire triangle. And that's why we're getting all these wildfires. Speaker 1:And you said that wildfire is an introduced concept to the ecology of Hawaii. Um, can you speak more about that? Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. So there's a lot of debate in terms of how much fire was used during the, um, kind of pre pre-contact era. Um, native Hawaiian. There are records of native Hawaiians using fire to help and native grasses [00:03:00] such as Pili Grass, um, which is a very important cultural, um, uh, grass for the native Hawaiians. Um, and then you have natural ignitions from lightning strikes. But of course we're, you know, pretty unique being out there with an active lava, an active lava source, um, constantly spewing out from, um, currently the big island. And so we've, you know, seen fires that have sprouted from lava ignitions, but in general, fire was not really part of the, [00:03:30] the natural ecology and most of the islands. And it's more of a recent, over the past hundred years or so where we've really seen a major uptick in the amount of wildfires and the sheer size and fires. Speaker 2:Um, you go back to 19 of 1901 and there was a fire that burned 30,000 acres on the Hamakua coast, which is a pretty wet area on the big island. That kind of sets a precedent. It shows that areas that are wet could actually burn too if [00:04:00] given the right conditions. You know, during the drought period when all of this vegetation that has been so lashed and growing for so many years, all of a sudden it becomes dry, becomes a burnable. Um, all you need is one spark and then you have a wildfire. So, um, kind of going back to that question, um, a lot of our native ecology is not used to wildfires. A lot of the native plants there are not adapted to fire. And now that it's part of the current ecosystem, um, unfortunately the native plants can't keep up with all the other plants [00:04:30] that have been. Speaker 2:Um, you know, a lot of the invasive fire prone plants that have come onto the islands, um, basically thrive. They reproduce after wildfire. And so the native plants really have no chance to come back in competition with, um, with the new plants that are on our islands. And then you start seeing, um, a loss in our native forest ecology, which then damages our watersheds and our ability to keep water on our lands. It ends up, you'll have days where [00:05:00] after a wildfire or even months after a wildfire where, um, we'll get a heavy rainfall event, which is pretty typical in Hawaii. Um, and it'll wash a lot of that top soil that's not being held down by what formerly was a forest. It goes out into the ocean and then pollutes our coral reefs, which then of course has other implications with our coastal resource management and impacts the fisheries and impacts the local fishermen and impacts to our tourism. Speaker 2:So there's this whole [00:05:30] wide, wide range of impacts that can happen from, from this introduced wildfire system that we have. And so it's an introduced system. How did you first, or how did Hawaii first start managing, um, fire? It's a very good question. It's a, um, again, wildfire management. It's a pretty new concept relative to, um, you know, a lot of other places in the world. And especially in the u s where, you know, [00:06:00] over a century ago, wildfire suppression only was really the, the main focus on the mainland. And that's kind of what we're seeing now with these major Yosemite fires and, um, these uncontrollable fires that are not really natural parts of the mainland ecosystems. Um, but it was that mentality of constantly suppression and keeping, keeping all that growth, not keeping that growth at bay basically, and having this massive amounts of burnable timber and plants and shrubs that usually would burn [00:06:30] 20, 30 year intervals. Speaker 2:And so some of that kind of mentality had carried out to, um, to the Hawaiian islands. So, you know, suppression only tactics not focusing on the prevention side, not focusing on pre fire management. So what you do to change the landscape in order to reduce the fire threat around an area. And, and a lot of it actually, um, there, there's a lot of, um, there were [00:07:00] a few guys who were in the business that were very forethinking and they thought, okay, how do we address this issue? We're not getting any funding to do anything outside of fire suppression. What do we do? And, um, over a decade ago, back in before 2000 when our organization formed a group of, um, fire chiefs and heads of the land, the land management agencies, they got together to f to think how are we going to address this issue? And they formed [00:07:30] this group called North Kona Fire and fuels group. Speaker 2:And it was really just the way to focus just in this specific area in North Kona on the big island. Um, the dry part of the, yes, exactly. So North Dakota and south Kohala is basically the hotbed, no pun intended, too many fire puns in this world. Um, but, uh, we, you know, we had, um, a growing wildfire problem in these areas and these guys were wondering what, what can we do to actually [00:08:00] make it so that we're not spending so much money, so much effort and risking our firefighters lives to fight these major fires that are starting to happen. And they decided to create that group, the North Kona Fire and fuels group, which then emerged into a formal organization, West Hawaii wildfire management organization just to focus on that area. But to create a nonprofit that would actually help start bringing funds in that will, um, you know, federal funds that can actually help [00:08:30] implement, um, you know, on the ground, pre fire management, outreach and education and even post-fire rehabilitation of our lands. Speaker 1:So you were saying earlier that, um, you weren't receiving federal, Hawai'i wasn't receiving federal funds to subdue anything besides fire suppression. Why was this organization able to receive federal funds now for doing these other steps in the fire Speaker 2:management system? Yeah, again, a lot of it ties into that [00:09:00] nonprofit, um, status. Having a nonprofit entity that can actually spend time grant writing and um, putting out proposals to various federal agencies and federal, federal grant programs to start bringing funding to Hawaii cause we really weren't getting any federal funding for anything outside of that. And did it also mark like a shift in the federal government's priorities? Definitely. Where people beginning to understand fire ecology better. Yes. A it partially is that [00:09:30] again, you know, you have these guys like Wayne cheering for one, he's this magician and really helped start this wildfire management program for the division of Forestry, the state division of Forestry and Wildlife, um, agency in a way and you know, really, really started to institutionalize wildfire management as part of, as part of their scope of work. And you know, people like that have really pushed the envelope in terms of getting Hawaii to be more forward thinking in terms of fire [00:10:00] suppression. Speaker 2:And then we have, um, like a lot of our grant funding actually has been coming from the US forest service. They have a grant program called the wild land urban interface, um, competitive grant program. And they'll assist, um, organizations like ours to, to implement projects that are more focused on pre fire management and outreach education and that sort of scope of work. What does community outreach look like? You know, depending on the grant, my, my project plan will change [00:10:30] accordingly. But the way it's changed has been very innovative. I give a lot of credit to our executive director Elizabeth Pickett and our board of directors who have really, and technical advisors who have really helped reshape how, how we focus on outreach and education. So originally it was, you know, we started by really just getting awareness out there because again, you know, a lot of travelers who come there don't know that there's wildfire issues and they might park their car and drive grass and then you have a sudden fire. Speaker 2:Um, [00:11:00] and then there's that awareness level from people who live there too, whether it's the actual awareness that there are fires in the area or an awareness that they can actually do something to protect themselves. Um, so that's kind of where we started. And over the years we've really grown to start, um, start actually empowering communities to actually act, act within themselves, act within the group to implement their own projects, start their own community groups, really, you know, [00:11:30] kind of like a neighborhood watch program, but bonusing on wildfires and wildfire projects. So whether that means, you know, having a chipper day where we contract the chipper out for for a two day period and people can help each other out, clear their yards of any flammable debris. And then we're, we're in this mode right now where we're working with communities statewide to help them become firewise communities, which is a natural national program through the National Fire Protection Association. Speaker 2:And it's a way to kind of validate [00:12:00] these efforts and also opens up funding opportunities for them as well. And so these are communities in the, like Peri urban or rural, um, areas, um, that included like a lot of ranchers. Um, what does that lifestyle look like? Or yeah, these look like. So every community we work with is quite different. And, um, you know, that's part of what makes my job really special and what I really enjoy about it is to get to meet really every type of person that [00:12:30] lives in the Hawaiian islands. And you get a whole range, you know, you get people who live, who come there to retire, right? And I'm starting to do life in Hawaii. Some people go out there to have a self sustaining life. Um, and then your of course have native populations there too. You have a very high pop, um, percentage of native Hawaiians that live still on the Hawaiian islands. Speaker 2:And, um, and the, you know, there's a lot of, um, historical kind of precedent for how these communities emerged and how each [00:13:00] one interacts. Um, but you know, our organization itself where, you know, we're nonpartisan, we're, you know, we work with anyone, literally anyone who has a wildfire problem, whether you're homeless, whether you have a home, whether you have $1 million home, you know, our whole goal is to protect your homes and communities from burning. And that also goes along with your natural landscapes. So that means, you know, if you're a rancher and you have, um, a a hundred thousand acres that you need to upkeep and, you know, you're getting fires that are burning constantly, [00:13:30] how can we help you use more strategic grazing practices that will actually manage the fuels around you? Um, the other thing we really stress is you don't have to go it alone as a community. Speaker 2:And so that's, that's the next step we're taking as an organization is how do we innovate new approaches to get not just the community involved, but every single stakeholder involved. And that's a practice that's being, and what that really means, again, is you need to have the politicians on board. You need to have planners [00:14:00] need to have educators and designers and every part of society involved in the process in order to actually have effective, meaningful project implementation that'll protect people from public safety hazards. And you've spoken a bit about, um, I mean, including all these stakeholders on one of those, but obviously be scientists, um, fire ecologist. Um, but you've spoken a little bit about how that's been a tricky, um, bridge to, uh, create, [00:14:30] um, say more. Sure. Um, so nationally it's uh, um, you know, nationally you have this divide between the research world, the academic world and people who are out on the ground. Speaker 2:Um, you know, quote unquote managers, right? Land managers, you know, it's neither is wrong or right. You know, there, um, there's just this disconnect in the communication between the two, the research. Um, [00:15:00] you know, the academic side is not getting down to the management level for various reasons and that's even more amplified on the islands because there are other things like race and ethnicity that also play a part in that. But the main thing is, you know, you're, um, a lot of the research that's happening won't necessarily tie into what the managers actually need on the ground. And so what our organization did, um, working with the US Forest Service in Hawaii, the IPOC office there and University of Hawaii [00:15:30] and then Hawaii wildfire management organization and kind of as a three legged stool to help create this program that will bridge the gap between science and management in the wildfire world. Speaker 2:And so in Hawaii, a lot of that means, you know, the conservation world, how do we get conservation minded people to create research that will have applications for fire managers or ranchers who need to know how they can create a fuel break that I actually protect their, their ranch lands. And it's of course the challenge. It's a very unique [00:16:00] opportunity and it's a way that the wildfire world can help demonstrate a process that other gaps between research and management, whether that's, you know, coastal restoration or you know, you can even take it into urban designed to, or there's a lot of applications and, um, and it's all through this program called the Pacific Fire Exchange, which is, has been taken off lately and there's been a lot of great, um, products that have been coming [00:16:30] out to help start getting that information from that, you know, academic world into the hands of land managers. Speaker 2:And then, um, it's not just the Pacific. We have, it's all part of this consortium called the, um, joint fire science program, which, um, you know, the, the entire nation is covered by various different consortia that are not based on the state's, um, boundaries, but actually based on the ecological boundaries of each, um, eco [00:17:00] biological areas across the state. Um, it's been highly successful. It's been really great to see nationwide, um, coming together of people in these various worlds to actually start sharing information. And so how did you come to the wildfire management scene? It was very serendipitous. It was, um, so I went to school at UC Berkeley, graduated back in 2012. The fire component actually came [00:17:30] really randomly. I didn't have enough coursework. Well, I couldn't get into a bunch of courses. I was kind of, I'm always behind because I was at spring admit, so it was always hard for me to get into certain courses and there was one semester where I just could not get into, um, the courses I needed. Speaker 2:So I decided, well, there's this fire ecology course. It sounds really interesting. It's already four weeks in, but I'm going to take it anyway. And I ended up taking the course under the wing of, um, Kevin Crosno [00:18:00] who was a, um, working on his doctorate at the time. And he really helped kind of catch me up with the class and I really started getting involved in the work he was doing. And this was all under Scott Stevens fiery college course. And then sure enough, the next semester I worked in the fire lab looking at tree ring tree rings for four hours straight. And um, you know, seeing what year as fires happened during certain years cause you can actually use tree rings to date fires going [00:18:30] back hundreds of years. Um, and again, that was another eye opening experience and I just started learning more and more about fire. Speaker 2:And then I ended up graduating and working for cal fire as a forestry assistant and I would actually go out with a team of three other people out in Lake Tahoe and assess different homes, um, for their defensible space measures to see how basically burnable their home landscape is. And under California regulations if you're in certain [00:19:00] areas that are um, your wildfire pro and you actually have to have defensible space. So we went around and kind of, um, mostly educated, uh, committee members about what they can do to, to fix some of their problems that we assessed. And that then kind of led me out into the wildfire world out in Hawaii. And the rest is history Speaker 1:in Lake Tahoe. How, where the existing practices of creating defensible space? Speaker 2:So one of [00:19:30] the major differences is again, the types of vegetation that you have, um, in Tahoe versus in Hawaii. So until her, you have conifer forests that are part of the native ecosystem and um, you know, you get a lot of leaf litter, um, a lot of pine pine needles that'll build up near homes or on gutters. So people will actually, um, you know, in order to have the principal space, you want to make sure a lot of that litter is cleared around your home. We generally say, um, you need to have at least 30 feet of spacing, [00:20:00] the first 30 feet around your home. Basically, you want to do more intensive, um, management of your landscape to prevent fires from spreading. Right, right to the edge of your home and just keep going out from there. But you really start close to the home. What can you focus on your home structure itself to prevent embers from flying? And Speaker 1:what did you see? Were a lot of people practicing this? Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, it was spotty and it depended on the communities. Um, you know, you could go to some communities and you would see that, [00:20:30] you know, almost everyone had leaf litter on their improves, which is a major threat because the roof is actually going to be your most vulnerable part of your home during a fire. And I think that then ties into the culture of it. So if you're in a community that has a culture of that, you don't see other people taking steps and measures to prevent wildfires from, um, you know, um, burning your home, um, it kind of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. So that's then something [00:21:00] that we take into mind when, where you work with communities. We're trying to build culture shifts rather than just programs or, um, you know, small projects in there. We really are trying to shift communities to take proactive action versus reactive comprehensive projects, not incomplete projects. Speaker 2:Um, and really just kind of get to this point where fire is always on the mind, whether that's in Tahoe, whether that's in Hawaii, we're living with fire in these wildland urban interfaces, [00:21:30] but it's not like a fear based thing. It's more of like, right. Risk Management, right? You have to have a little fear because you know, it is, it is a fear, you know, to have your home burn. No one wants to see their home burn, no one wants to see their community burn your neighborhood, your businesses. Right. So wildfire is unique in that sense. Um, in that it's very apolitical. Everyone can agree on, you know, not wanting to see your community burn down. And it really helps create this lead in into other projects that the community wants to do. So we've [00:22:00] seen communities who take, you know, they'll take the wildfire actions that they need to take and they start having community bonding and then they actually start working on other projects that they might not necessarily have been able to do before because there might've been political challenges or social challenges within the group. Speaker 1:You also grew up in La and you were educated in Berkeley, if not, you're kind of as a city boy. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and you're going and working with largely rural communities [00:22:30] or more on the rural edge, um, in America as we've seen, there's a rural urban divide. Um, how has that been for one educating you on, um, that divide and also how have you tried to bridge that? Hmm. Okay. Speaker 2:It's a very good question. I haven't done a lot of reflection in that, so this'll give me a chance to kind of explore my mind and, and my experiences, but has definitely been an exciting challenge for me to, [00:23:00] um, you know, kind of deconstruct my urban, my urban mind really, and start thinking about how rural landscapes work and how people work with the landscape and in various ways to achieve, you know, multiple goals in general. I mean, I always grew up around nature. I always, um, you know, my parents always tried to expose me to the natural world, but I never thought it would actually be a career of mine. And I never thought that I would actually be living in a tiny town, you know, of a couple of thousand people [00:23:30] versus a few million people. Um, so that has been a challenge in itself, but I really have noticed that I thrive more in those environments and I really enjoy, um, human interactions. Speaker 2:I really enjoy working with people. Living in rural areas really gives you that chance to develop relationships that you might not normally have in certain urban settings where it might be a little more isolated. Even though there's more people. It's kind of that weird paradox in the rural areas. You see [00:24:00] pretty much everyone right every day, whether they're at the store or just an informal or informal settings. But, um, you have to really be careful about your interactions to you. Um, you have to be a little more careful about what you say or what you align with. Um, still be true to yourself, but also understand that your actions will have impacts on how other people react to it or perceive certain issues. So again, with wildfire, you know, we're always being careful about how we introduce, [00:24:30] um, wildfire outreach to communities because what we might say to one community about not using this material might actually be a problem for communities that can't afford to use certain materials to build their homes. Speaker 2:Um, so it's, it's been a great challenge and I really have appreciated working with Hawaii wildfire management organization to, to learn how I can better interact in, in that rural landscape. And I think you talked about this a little bit, but [00:25:00] it's also like solving the problem of scientists or policymakers, what not coming from the urban areas and saying, here's what you need to do. But it sounds like you're maybe trying to have something more collaborative where both sides can learn from one another. Right? That is a huge part of our organization. Um, we don't do any project unless we have buy-in from not just agencies, not just from the academic side. There needs to be buying on [00:25:30] the community side too. And we've built in a process within our organization to actually incorporate all of that within our governing bodies. So we actually have a technical advisory panel that will, um, that are, you know, fire chiefs and ranchers and all these experts all across the state who can help guide our vision towards certain projects and help kind of give, um, agency basically to a lot of our, um, the project ideas. Speaker 2:But it also needs to have support from [00:26:00] community members, from um, landowners down on the, on the ground level. Um, and when we have that buy in from all sides, we have really seen our projects take off because when you have that, that sort of buying, you have projects that are effective, efficient, they are meaningful, grounded. And so that's where the word collaboration really is an important part of our organization. And we've really tried to own that word. You can't, you can't succeed in this modern, [00:26:30] ingrained world if you don't have collaboration on all parts. And we hope that's a message that carries out to not just everyone else in the wildfire world, but really the rest of the world. And we need more to solve our, our, um, wicked problems. Speaker 1:Hmm. Have talked a little bit about like receiving federal funding. Um, and I don't know how much your organization sort of relies on that. And is the funding for fire prevention and management, um, [00:27:00] a political or do you expect anything to change with a, um, new administration Speaker 2:in general? Again, wildfire is a little more of an a political issue. You get, um, you know, even in the u s you'll get a lot of bills that get signed with both parties supporting it. Um, when we have political change or new political atmospheres, of course there's always concern. Um, no matter what side, um, takes power. You, you don't know wildfires [00:27:30] not always up first thing that you hear during a campaign. Right? Or we didn't hear it at all during the election season. So, um, you know, we don't know what'll happen, but climate change or climate change, which is actually an important part of the equation for us to and our widely, um, so that's a, that's a concern. Certainly if climate change is not being addressed, um, in the new administration, um, that might close the door for a lot of other funding options. Um, you know, climate change has big impacts on the Hawaiian islands. Speaker 2:You can't ignore it. It's happening [00:28:00] all around. Um, whether you believe it's human caused or not, it's happening on the Hawaiian islands. And so we really need to start addressing it because it has major impacts on our, our wildfire behavior that we've been seeing. We're getting more in longer drought periods, heavier, you know, bigger storms. We've had record, um, storms hit our islands the past few years, which means more rainfall, more growth. And then you have these long drought areas, child periods that um, basically exponentially create a bigger [00:28:30] wildfire threat. So if the funding isn't matching that, then we're going to have some real serious issues. Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think I saw on the news today a, there was a fire in Oahu. Speaker 2:Yeah, correct. There was one western Walker and actually have some friends that live in the valley that was burning this last night and this morning. And um, it was a harrowing experience for them. Um, cause especially interesting because we just did outreach at the, the school [inaudible] um, academy that's um, right in that valley where the fire [00:29:00] was, um, was burning. And they actually closed the school today because the smoke was this right turn tense for the kids to be around. And so one of my friends, um, Joe actually gave me a call and asked, you know, what do I do? What do I do during, you know, um, when, when this is happening, what am I supposed to do around the home, um, to start preparing if I need to evacuate. That's the kind of mindset where you want to see, um, from people before the fire, before the fire happens, right. Not when the fire is actually happening. Speaker 1:[00:29:30] So, um, do you have a website or any, any way people can reach you if they have any additional questions or interests? Speaker 2:Yes, so we do have a website. It's Hawaii wildfire.org and it's all spelled out who I, wildfire.org and um, we have an email address that you can reach us at two, it's Admin administrations or ADM, I n@hawaiiwildfire.org and you can connect with us. Doesn't matter if you don't live in Hawaii, if you're just interested in the work we do or you want to contribute [00:30:00] somehow. We're also a nonprofit so we always are welcome to donations to help with our work, to protect our communities, lands in our waters. It's also a great tool for people in Hawaii who are looking for resources. We have a whole plethora of resources out there to help you, um, take action around your own home with your own family and also with the rest of your community. Well, Pablo, thank you so much for coming in and telling us about wildfire management. Thank you. It's so good to be back in [00:30:30] Berkeley. Hello. Huh? See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Joan Blades, MoveOn.org and MomsRising.org Co-Founder, discusses her new project, Living Room Conversations, tools for healing and collaboration following the recent divisive election season as well as strategies to change political dynamics.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next and you are listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Kiefer, and today I'm interviewing Joan glades. Joan was the cofounder of move on.org and moms rising dot board. Her current passion [00:00:30] is to bring the right and left together in conversation to find common ground so our country can move forward following this divisive election. The project is called living room conversations. Welcome to the program. Joan. Thank you so much for having me. Speaker 2:I remember you from move on.org and moms rising and you have a new passion living room conversations. Can you tell me what [00:01:00] that is? Absolutely. It's a opportunity to let people talk to each other across differences. Right? Left older, younger, you name it. Right now we're looking a lot at the right left issue. It's a very simple practice where two friends with different viewpoints each invite two friends to have a structured conversation. They've agreed to some ground rules, which are basically what you learned in kindergarten. Take turns, be respectful, be curious. Own your part of the conversation and then it, the structure is such [00:01:30] that the first couple of rounds are about who you are. Why do you join the conversation and some of your deeper values so that by the time you get to the topic you've chosen, you have a sense that these people you're sitting with are people you share values with in some ways and that they're good people. Speaker 2:Can you find those differences when you live in a city like Berkeley? Well, once it's reasons I started, this was because I was born in Berkeley and I lived other places in my twenties but I came back, it became clear to me at a certain point that I really [00:02:00] needed to understand what considered potential or thinking, particularly when I was at move on back in 2004 I was part of a group called green uniting America and I had the opportunity to sit down with people, grassroots leaders on the right and really have a relationship and conversation and better understand where they were coming from. You know, my question was at that time, why aren't you concerned about climate change? And at that time we were able to in 2004 2005 and at that time we were able [00:02:30] to have a really thoughtful conversation about it and honestly the line to not harden the way they have since that time. Speaker 2:By 2008 2009 I couldn't have those same conversations which said to me that, you know, we need to have that relationship first so that we can actually have a funny, you call it caused the hardening of the lines. You said 2008 2009 was it the crash? No, I would say it's the crash. So much as different topics get taken as partisan indicators [00:03:00] and you have to be true to that line. Warren more and I think we've become increasingly polarized over the last 10 years. A lot of people forgotten move on. Started midway in the impeachment scandal with Monica Lewinsky and Clinton and it was a common sense. Let's get back to business. One sentence, petition censure the president and get back to pressing issues facing the nation. And you could love Clinton or hate Clinton and agree that the best thing for the country is get [00:03:30] back to business because it was just increasing partisanship. Speaker 2:So we had, you know, thousands of Republicans delivering their move on petition two at that time. But unfortunately two weeks after an election where we worked very hard to get all sorts of people out, we had the congress impeach, it wasn't the most popular thing to do. And then, you know, we'd gotten hundreds of thousands of people active in politics for the first time in their lives and it just didn't feel right to go home at that point because good [00:04:00] citizens yet is electing people that reflect your values. And that's actually how move on ended up becoming more than a flash campaign because our original intent was just we'll help everyone communicate with them, move on is still happening, move on is still a very healthy organization with wonderful leadership and it's, it's working on the progressive side in just a certain way. Whereas your living room conversations, you're inviting everyone to the conversation. Speaker 2:Living Room conversations are me. [00:04:30] Add a whole set of partners from right to left agreeing that we need to have relationship, respectful relationship, have everybody's best ideas and you reach out to these people. I know one is a tea party person and did you personally reach out and say, I want to do this with you. One of my friends who was a conservative said, you know you should meet Mark Meckler who's the Co founder of tea party patriots. You're the CO founder. Move on. Wouldn't it be cool if you both had a living room conversation together? So this started no living [00:05:00] room conversations started with working with a group called changing the game to do a pilot project in test out what a simple conversation that would be massively reproducible would look like. As a founder. Move on. I really value grassroots engagement because when you get down to it, citizens are smart, they're caring, and if you give them a way to participate, they'll do so in a really valuable way. Speaker 2:And I think we lack the citizen voices that we really [00:05:30] need. If you look up this some time ago that you started this pilot 2011 and one of the people from changing the game, one of the conservative partners there became my partner founding Amanda, Catherine, Roman founding living room conversations because you really have to walk the walk doing this work. Tell me more about the goals of living room conversations. Well, the, the goal is to have good relationships with people with all sorts of belief systems so that we actually work together collaboratively [00:06:00] and collaborative. Problem solving is just infinitely better than adversarial problem solving. You need to go out to the congress and speak. Well, they haven't invited me. I mean just think about it. The issue of climate change is one where even if all the Republicans agreed, it was a huge problem at this point. Speaker 2:I would not trust the congress to come up with a good plan because they do it through adversarial engagement. To do really good problem solving. You [00:06:30] need to use everyone's best ideas. You need to be agile. So you try what you think is the best plan possible. And when you see things that are working, you go deeper there and things that aren't working, you s you know, you cut those pieces and that kind of creativity and agility isn't possible when you're in an internal flight. And right now we're seeing an internal fight. Yes. And I just finished Arlie Hochschild book strangers in their own land and I couldn't help but think it by the end [00:07:00] of it, it seems like progresses are always reaching out, trying to figure out a way to communicate with those that have very different ideas. Do you think they feel the same way toward us? Speaker 2:I don't see that same sort of reciprocity. It always seems like it's a progressive idea to say we need to talk. Well remember this is an organization that's half conservative than half progresses, right? Living Room conversations is not me. I'm one of many partners and I'm here in Berkeley. So, and honestly [00:07:30] I think on both sides there's been a great deal of rigidity that has been built in. And in fact, people want to fix it, the congress, and I want you to, but I believe Congress will be fixed and presidential elections will be fixed when we create a citizen foundation that has an expectation of respectful engagement in collaborative problem solving. So you started this pilot project, you're not still in the pilot phase. Wait [00:08:00] now. Okay. So tell me what some of your accomplishments have been since 2010 well, I think the most, one of the noteworthy conversations, especially for this locality is mark McClaren. Speaker 2:I did cohost a conversation in 2013 on crony capitalism where he brought two of his friends and I had two of my friends and we had this amazing conversation and I invited one person from the press, Joe carefully of the San Francisco Chronicle. And the following week that conversation ended up [00:08:30] on the front page top of fold and the San Francisco Chronicle. And that conversation led us to realize that we were in complete agreement. And when I say we, we and our friends that there way too many people in prison, the war on drugs is not successful. And we have to start using evidence based practices in the criminal justice system. That led to mark and I speaking, writing, you know, op-eds I wrote with Grover Norquist and Matt Cafe [00:09:00] and I had the opportunity to initiate a convening in 2014 of leaders on the right and left inside and outside DC because do you see a tighter, too different from dcs ciders in many ways on the topic. Speaker 2:And it ended up being the seed for a group called the Coalition for public safety, which is working on criminal justice issues where we're fundamentally in agreement with major organizations on the left and right. AFL CIO [00:09:30] and Grover Norquist group, you know, and it's funded by left and right. MacArthur Foundation, Koch brothers, Arnold Foundation Ford. This is meaningful. And if you recall, there was a time when someone in politics couldn't talk about reducing prison sentences, couldn't talk about all sorts of ways of improving criminal justice. That dynamic changed now. There's a whole huge amount of work to be done to improve the criminal justice system. [00:10:00] We've just created the opening where improvement can be made in the more real, like the recent election will hinder some of the progress you've made. It depends on how successful leaders on the right are in communicating with this administration that there's an opportunity to greatly improve our criminal justice system and our communities through having fair, better evidence based practices. Speaker 2:It has concerned me deeply when I [00:10:30] started hearing the old line or don't language, but I hope that that was just something that was happening in the run up to the election and that in fact, because there is so much more understanding now of how dysfunctional our criminal justice system has been in certain ways, that improvement will continue. That's, you mentioned crony capitalism. Can you expand on that just a little bit? Where were the areas of agreement? Ah, there was agreement on left and right that if the banks are going to gamble with our money, they shouldn't be [00:11:00] insured when they lose it and get to keep it when they make money. Yeah, that's not a uh, kind of deal we think is good for us. Stupid regulations. Nobody likes them. I think there's a segment of America that's just really annoyed with stupid regulations, especially in in our lease book that she goes into pretty great depth about the both the state and the federal regulations, you know, bad regulation is we have, we're burdened by this. So yeah, if we could make it, [00:11:30] all of us collectively easier to get rid of that which is not good and improve that which needs improving. We're in such a stuck place if we, when we're in good relationship with each other, a huge amount of becomes possible. Speaker 2:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public show on k Speaker 1:a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today I'm interviewing Joan blades. [00:12:00] Her new project is living room conversations designed to build relationships and foster collaborative problem solving locally and nationally Speaker 2:to climate change as an issue of agreement. To me, that's such an important issue and one that affects everyone regardless. The climate change topic is a really deep one because it has many, [00:12:30] I have numerous conservative partners and they come from different perspectives. One of my partners is a techno optimist. He thinks the market and you know man, you know our traditional creativity is gonna solve this problem. One of my partners, Jacob in Utah is a Mormon and has not considered climate change a huge issue, but because we're in closer, you know, we love each other. He's a wonderful human being and [00:13:00] he's come to understand that climate change is the progressive and time story. And you can relate to a group that has an end time story and he's, he's right. It is our progressive end time story. It is one of them for sure. Speaker 2:But it's also because, and I can say to him, Jacob, even if there's only a 20% chance that we are destroying the future for our children and their children and the planet, that's unacceptable. I don't let my children play Russian [00:13:30] roulette. And plus, it's not necessarily when you say story that implies that it's sort of this, I don't know, a story when in fact, no, the, the Bible is real. I mean it's really effecting, you know, the Bible is the story that means the most to Jacob. That is not a diminishment that at all. It's a, it's a very respectful understanding of where I'm coming from. That it is my end time story. You [00:14:00] know, that's the deep story that Arlie talks about, right? Yeah. And he, he cares more about climate change now because he cares about me. Do they not see the, the effects of like for instance in Charlie's book that people who are experiencing the effects of, uh, whether it's chemicals in the aquifer or more high cancer rates, why can't they connect the dots? Speaker 2:Whether it's climate change thinking Arlene's cation, they do [00:14:30] connect dots. I think they see environmental pollution. But I think climate change is big enough that if your world and our world is, the community we live in sees it as nature's natural way of going through changes, it's very possible to see things that way. You know, if there's science behind what we're doing, we know that people make their decisions first [00:15:00] with their emotions and then their reason justifies it. So being in relationship makes all the difference in the world to how you hear someone. And if you live in a community that believes climate change is not a primary threat and you know the deficit is then all your instincts and their pretty primal are going to send you there. And in fact, if I send one of my conservative friends off to talk about climate and they talk about climate and the way I talk about [00:15:30] they are at risk of being shunned and on a primal level that is death. Speaker 2:You're shunned, you're out of the pack, you die. And that's the way it, it feels. So it's, it's not, let's talk about this divide just a little bit more because to me it's always been a socioeconomic problem. I feel like the, the coasts and major cities, people have jobs and slowly but surely these jobs and high paying jobs have evaporated from these regions that have become red [00:16:00] states. Why isn't anybody just coming out and saying it's a socioeconomic issue. You know? If you are feeling like you're less than your relatives on the coast because you can't afford to send your kid to a college that they can because your job isn't good enough. To me it's just, it's kind of the 99% again, the 1% who have everything and you know, I think some people are saying or telling the economic story and I think it's many stories. Speaker 2:There [00:16:30] are many threads to this and the more I've been engaged with diverse people across the political spectrum, the more I've seen that there isn't a right, there's a lot of different positions around the country and very different ways of looking at things that are not progressive. You know, sometimes we use the term trans partisan because bi-partisan doesn't begin to describe it. It's way too linear, [00:17:00] but it's all over the map in terms of where people's beliefs are. And the reality is when you have a conversation with someone, you're not going to transform their beliefs in a single conversation. What you are hopefully going to do is create some relationship, which opens them up to thinking about things differently. It's, it's about opening hearts honestly. And once we care about each other then many things become possible. [00:17:30] How many of these living room conversations are going on right now around the country? Speaker 2:Do you have certain regions? And you know, that's a great question. And since it's an open source project that's very lightly funded, we know about hundreds that have happened, but I know they've happened in east Africa and you know, I gave a talk in San Francisco a few years ago and came back the following year. I'm in the elevator with someone's, Oh our church. They really, it made a big difference. [00:18:00] It was really great. Again, my car tells me more, tell me, never got back to me. So the reality is when you create something that's just available to people, you don't have the data, don't have the data, but you know, are used to be that churches kind of provided that living room conversation. At least when I was growing up in the Midwest, people would come together for one reason or another, not necessarily a churchy stuff and talk. And it seems like there was a lot [00:18:30] more flexibility with people than there is today. Speaker 2:Do you think some of the social fabric being gone now, like the churches and the organizations that are no longer has had an effect on this? I think it's had a huge effect and I also think we've homogenized, um, [inaudible] that homogenized. I live in Berkeley, we have very little exposure to conservatives and they in turn are homogenized. Yeah. Because we're all more comfortable now and it's become impolite [00:19:00] to talk politics in many, many situations because politics have become so heated. And honestly when I see people talk politics very often they're just doing the talking points and you know that cartoon with the dog listening to the master and the master saying thing, the dog seeing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Until we have relationship. Those talking points are like Baba, when's the last time you saw someone win an argument like that? You don't win arguments [00:19:30] and debates. Speaker 2:You may say you win debates, but in terms of true persuasion, true persuasion happens when you care about each other and you really want to understand and when that understanding happens, then you've got some room for creative engagement and when, when solutions are possible. Well, what are some of the topics that you're looking forward to this next year to take to some of these conversations? You've [00:20:00] talked about the three that you mentioned earlier. We certainly have the post election conversation, but we have 50 conversations up. Uh, one of the things I'm very excited about is all sides for schools and all sides for schools. Mike Conservative partner, John started all sides. That's a news resource that gives you news from left right and center side-by-side. Same topics. Sometimes that's, that's actually just a new service. And what happened is organically it started being pulled into schools and then [00:20:30] we had a living room conversation here in Berkeley a couple of years ago. Speaker 2:A Serena Weatherspoon was a cohost and it was a voter non-voter living room conversation because in 2014 in California, under 10% of 18 to 24 year olds voted under 10% that's like what's going on? So she had a conversation with tears. Then she wrote this wonderful blog about it that basically said, look, you know, I surprised we were actually in complete agreement. It's really questionable whether [00:21:00] voting is worthwhile. And school taught us more about the great Gatsby than how to vote. So you know, some tell on the seat point. Yeah. And they went to Berkeley high right here you have, you know, just half of them said that's not even worth it. And Half said, oh, I guess I should add, even though it was really questionable. This is a conversation a couple of years ago and she wrote about that and John and I were talking to each other. God, that's terrible. Speaker 2:Because you know, schools are the place where [00:21:30] we're supposedly paying for them to have an educated electorate. 18 to 24 year olds should be the most likely to vote, not the least likely to vote. What's going on. Something they look forward to doing. Yeah, and when he said all sides was getting pulled into schools and they were starting to work on a critical thinking curriculum, I said, you know, that's great. The other piece of that is we know that having relationship makes all the difference between whether people really listen to each other or not. [00:22:00] And schools teach debate, but they don't teach collaboration necessarily and how to really be great listeners. So the power of relationship. So what we decided to do is create this head, heart piece for the all sides and that's all sites for school. So it includes and relationships matter, living room conversation. Speaker 2:Now there's also the not school version, but for the school. Well, I'm really glad to hear that you're kind of targeting [00:22:30] a younger demographic. You're targeting everybody and you don't want to IX glued that group faith communities because yeah, the episcopal diocese of El Camino reality invited me to come for their spring convening and from that we now have a faith community living room conversations partner because she started using now multiple folks started using living room conversations in their congregations but she started using it deeply [00:23:00] and did some beautiful blogs about it and we realized that really every major faith, tradition, love thy neighbor is a key part of the tradition and what a gift for faith communities to take this role on. And so some are, and we are hoping this year because this year and next year because if anything is going to show us that we need to change our relationship with our neighbors and I'm saying neighbor in the very broad sense, [00:23:30] all those states where we're thinking we're really isolated from, we've got to break down those boundaries in three and a half years when we have a presidential election, I want to have both candidates be that my conservative friends would accept and be okay with so much more interest they would have for me the same. Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's because, because we're in with lationships with each other, we'd be demanding [00:24:00] of media that they treat people running for office with more respect. We faded miserable thing running for office. A lot of people I would like to run for office won't because it's not a place they want to be. You don't. When we care about each other, then we want us all to get to a place where we can, you know, be proud together of a precedent. I read a recent New Yorker online article about Silicon Valley's empathy vacuum. [00:24:30] It was by Om Malik. And I think that he touched on a lot of the things that you're talking about. He says that Silicon Valley's biggest failing is not poor marketing of its products or follow through on the promises, but rather the distinct lack of empathy for those whose lives are disturbed by its technological wizardry. Speaker 2:He encourages and empathy, um, for this industry and says that Silicon Valley could even become [00:25:00] a bigger villain in the popular imagination, much like the east coast counterpart Wall Street. I think this goes along with what you're saying and it may be a little idealistic. Yeah. I think we need to get a little idealistic here and really we're talking so seriously. The reality of these conversations is yes, you're a little nervous going into it, but it's actually a great experience because you meet these people that are lovely, and when you [00:25:30] live in a bubble with people that all agree with you, what happens is it amplifies your anxieties. It amplifies the divide. It amplifies the divide. And all of a sudden you find that these people that you've thought were so other aren't, they're kind, they're intelligent and they have some really different viewpoints that are challenging but holding the tension of our differences, that's a practice we can do. Speaker 2:I want to talk a little bit about your background. [00:26:00] You had a background in technology originally, is that correct? I was originally an attorney mediator. So mediation is my starting passion. All that makes sense. And technology just kind of happened cause less than I've had. You went from that to uh, a very, I call it political career. Well actually it went from that, uh, to Wes who is my husband. We played soccer together. He's technologically very adept and [00:26:30] he had a small company and we were best known for flying toasters and a game show called, you don't know Jack. So, but that was how we supported ourselves, which was really good. And I was the person that if I could read the, anyone could understand it. You know, I did everything in the company, but nothing technology wise other than if I could understand it. Speaker 2:Yeah. All right. This will work. And when did you start to move into to move on? Oh, move on with this total fluke, [00:27:00] six months into the impeachment scandal west and I are, you know, and I don't like polarization, I'm against it. And we're sitting in a restaurant on Solano Avenue hearing another crowd of people talking about, you know, how the impeachments just going on and on and we wrote our one sentence petition. Congress must immediately center the precedent and move on to pressing issues facing the nation. Sent it to under 100 of our friends and family. And within a week we had 100,000 people sign that [00:27:30] in 98 that was unheard of. And that's when I started learning about politics and communicating with leadership. And it's been an education. And I see you have an event coming up at Berkeley's historic Hillside Club, a u n Arlie Hochschild. Speaker 2:We'll be in conversation December 8th at 7:30 PM and that's here in Berkeley at 2186 Cedar Street. What are you going to be talking about? Harley Hook child and I are going to be [00:28:00] speaking about talking to strangers and she'll probably be talking about her new book which was nominated for National Book Award. Yes. And The New York Times bestseller now. Yeah. Strangers in their own land and, and you'll be talking about living room conversations. Yes. We're having a conversation about our adventures with people that have very different views than us and how really wonderful it is having those conversations. It makes our lives richer. Yes it does. Is there a website or how can people get Ahold of you? [00:28:30] Living Room conversations.org that's everything you need to do a living room conversation and 50 topics already. We're putting up more on how to get started and yeah, the whole concept is this is so simple and it's really about tapping your host and guests norms and re being reminded and reminding people of, you know, how we're supposed to act together is powerful and break bread together and people have a great time. [00:29:00] Well, Joe and I want to have you on this show in a couple of years and we'll see how, how this has gone. That would be really interesting. Thank you for coming on. You're welcome. Speaker 3:Okay. Speaker 1:That was Joan blades, founder of living room conversations, and you've been listening to method to the madness or weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley, celebrating the bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts [00:29:30] on iTunes university. Tune in next Friday at noon. [inaudible]. Speaker 4:Okay. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Co-founder and co-editor Lance Knobel discusses challenges and mission of Berkeleyside, a pioneer in the field of online local journalism and a blueprint for hyperlocal news.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l expertly celebrating bay area innovators on your host, Lisa Kieffer. And today I'm interviewing Lance Nobel Co founder and Co editor of Berkeley's award-winning independent online news site, Berkeley side. What is the secret to Berkeleyside side's success? What Speaker 2:accounts for Berkeley side's particular sort of ambition and success? First, [00:00:30] everybody involved in Berkeley side, particularly the three founders, myself, Francis Tinkle Spiel, and Tracy Taylor, all of us came to Berkeley side with a lots of experience, you know, many decades of work in journalism. So we bring that knowledge and experience to it and I think that shows in how we cover things, how we write about things, our seriousness, our intent, all of those things manifest. I think we're also incredibly fortunate [00:01:00] in the nature of Berkeley. Um, that can't be denied. Um, this is a city, first of all, where there's tons of news. We're never short of interesting, fascinating, complex things to write about readers. Yes, that's the second part. Readers who really care, um, and are very, very engaged, which is, I don't think that common. I think there's no denying that Berkeley ins have [00:01:30] a particularly intense involvement in what's happening in their city. Speaker 2:How do you get your stories? We get our stories in a number of ways. Um, one obviously is, you know, the conventional journalistic way of getting stories. I'm pounding the pavement, speaking to people, going to city council meetings, seeing that there's a hearing on a building, all of those very, very conventional things. What is new for Berkeleyside and I think for many others is that [00:02:00] our community is also an incredibly important source of news for us. That may range from getting a phone call or a tweet or a Facebook comment. Hey Berkeleyside I heard sirens, what's going on? And that would trigger a call from us to the police or that these news stories that come to you? Yeah, we, we get, we don't just mindlessly retweet things. We, we, we try and be quite rigorous about things. But if, [00:02:30] uh, somebody particularly, you know, often, you know, at this point, we're seven years old, so we know a lot of our readers, particularly the people that are engaged and get in touch with us, said, you there are people we, we've got a lot of faith and trust in and they've established a track record that's different than just getting something out of the blue. Speaker 2:But, you know, we get a lot of tips, which as I say, maybe very simple, um, I smell smoke. You know, is there something happening? What's the helicopter doing over, you know, my street, [00:03:00] uh, you know, I hear police sirens. You know, we had a fascinating story, uh, just a few weeks ago where somebody phoned us and said, I came across a really strange thing and it was a pile of discarded ballot papers that county ballot that sent out. Somebody had found a bundle of, I forget what it was, 43, just in a recycling bin and said, what on earth is going on? And so he had himself phoned [00:03:30] the, uh, registrar of voters who said, that shouldn't be happening. And then the police got involved and they said, this is evidence of current. And he called us and said, you might want to look into this and Emily Ragu. Speaker 2:So our amazing, you know, senior reporter, you know, she kind of got on the trail and you know, she on Facebook and Twitter said, hey, are people having issues with the mail? And it turned out that this was not an isolated incident that [00:04:00] the mail carriers and Berkeley have been so kind of overwhelmed by the volume of mail, particularly in the election season, but also the fewer resources in the post office or there are fewer mail carriers for greater volume being required to do double shifts. So all of these things, people were getting their mail delivered at midnight. Uh, people were finding their mail had just been dumped. There were all sorts of problems and that all came from just one phone call. So, [00:04:30] you know, that's, I wouldn't say it's typical, but it's not uncommon for something different from nature. Newspapers like New York Times. I mean, don't they get tips as well? Speaker 2:And of course, most famously in this last election season, neither one of the New York Times reporters, when she looked in her mailbox or the New York Times, they're where the Trump tax returns. Unfortunately, only one set of tax returns from way back when. But you know, that that was fantastic investigative journalism that [00:05:00] just fell into her lap. So yeah, that does happen. But I think it is the case that, you know, local news has a particularly intimate relationship with its readers. Um, and so we benefit from that. It's also the case that, you know, we're in a world where everyone has the ability to be an observer reporter in their way, whether it's through things they say on Facebook or Twitter and, you know, we're harvesting all [00:05:30] that. And I think, you know, when I worked in journalism, you know, in the pre-digital age, all of us were aware of kind of getting letters written in green ink, um, which is the sign of a kind of crazy, cranky person. Sometimes they're interesting things. More often than not, it's a sign of a crazy cranky person that has no, no, no. A basis, in fact. So that kind of thing has always happened, but there's so many new avenues and I think the, uh, intelligent [00:06:00] news organization finds ways to tap in, harvest, all those new ways of getting information. Speaker 3:You make a distinction between content providers and real journalism and the dangers that we face when real journalistic investigations, et Cetera, don't happen. You've been known to solve what is known as wicked problems. Is this one of the challenges and the problems that you're trying to solve at Berkeley side? I mean, in general? Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, we're, we're incredibly committed to [00:06:30] a profound belief in the importance of journalism for our democracy in a city like Berkeley. No one else is really going to be the watchdog of what's happening. You know, we're pretty rare in being, you know, journalists that show up every city council meeting. Uh, we show up every meeting of this happening, adjustment forward. Uh, we show up to the school board, all of these things you need, you need the sunlight, uh, that, you [00:07:00] know, good journalism can provide. I think that's incredibly important. The thing I'd shy away from is creating this kind of hard and fast distinction between journalists and others. We're fortunate in this country that we don't have any licensing scheme for journalists. Many, many, many years ago I ran a small publishing company in Italy and to be journalists Sta in Italy, you know, you needed to have, you know, that license to show you [00:07:30] were a professional journalist. Speaker 2:No one level you could say, well that's good. Everybody has to have certain professional standards they meet and you know, why shouldn't they be licensed the way doctors and lawyers, given that you believe journalism is important, shouldn't you have something that says this person is fit to serve as a journalist? I would reject that. Absolutely. I suspect if anyone, and maybe uh, president Trump will try this, if anyone tried to do it, I'm pretty sure it would be shown to be unconstitutional as [00:08:00] a suppression of the free press and free speech. People commit acts of journalism all the time and they don't have to necessarily be journalists. I don't believe that there is a sacred class to whom these acts of journalism are a kind of holy order with a secret language and a, you know, a decoder ring. Speaker 3:It's been a bit of a wild west lately. There've been some fake news sites, especially during this election cycle Speaker 2:is a huge problem. And [00:08:30] you know, our friends at Facebook, you know, down there in Menlo Park, one would hope if there is a sense of responsibility there, they need to look at their algorithmic approach to showing people things that allegedly they'll be interested in where wholly fake news. I mean there are organizations that have set up to provide fake news because they know it can appear in people's Facebook feeds and you can monetize that, you know, [00:09:00] if you get traffic to your site. This is horrific. Uh, you know, Brian Stelter who talks about the media on CNN has done some fantastic work and has spoken out in really incisive ways about how to guard against fake news. And you know, we all need to be aware of that. Any of us who are in our forties, 50s, 60s, we didn't grow up in a digital age. Speaker 2:Um, we grew up in an age where newspapers were on paper or you listened to the radio or watch television, but we [00:09:30] learned the cues where you could discern between what is authoritative and what is fake. Or at least you thought you did and you knew you, you gained a good sense of your something that was the national enquirer by the supermarket checkout. You would guarded that as having a different relationship to the truth. Then, uh, the New York Times or the La Times or the San Francisco Chronicle, you kind of understood that at a very [00:10:00] instinctive level in the digital world, a lot of those cues have been removed. You're the, the generation that's growing up that's wholly digital. I'm confident my two sons will never buy a paper newspaper, but they, I think you have from a very early age, you develop the instincts to understand what's real and what's fake in a digital realm. Speaker 1:Their children may have a critical analysis that many, many people do not get educated. Speaker 2:But I think all of us need to learn [00:10:30] and find ways to make that discernment and to learn to that filtering process to learn what can I trust, what can I believe in and how can I develop the skills to dig in and find something? Is that real? Before I mindlessly repost it and send it and share it with my friend? Speaker 1:If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. [00:11:00] Today I'm interviewing Lance Noble, Co founder and Co editor of Berkeley side. You lived in England for like 20 years, 27 years, and then you came back to the states. How did the idea Berkeley side enter your framework? Speaker 2:Very simple and very innocent. Tracey Francis and I, Tracy, who's my wife, Frances was a friend. Our children went to school together, so we were all journalists, all knew each other and we were aware [00:11:30] and lamenting the fact that the city we live in, there was no way to find out what was going on. When you landed in Berkeley. Yeah, we moved to Berkeley. When we moved from London, Tracy and I, you know, in Speaker 1:what was going on at the time. What were people reading? Speaker 2:If you wanted local news, there was nothing. I mean there was a, the Berkeley dally planet eat, which at that time was still coming out on paper twice a week. But the Berkeley daily planet was, you know, very clearly about advocacy journalism. It covered some things. It ignored other [00:12:00] things. If you wanted to know what's happening at Berkeley High, you would never read about it in the Berkeley daily planet. If you wanted to know, you know about crime, you know, they did the occasional police blotter item, but that wasn't, uh, the core of their being. They were trying to press a point of view and to give a perspective as they saw it on a, you know, the politics of the city and particularly the politics of development and things like that. There was no where, other than the occasional [00:12:30] story in the chronicle maybe, but there was no one that was regularly covering what's happening in our city. Speaker 2:And we thought, hey, we know how to do this. And we started it thinking this is something that will be interesting to do from time to time. And you were thinking digitally at the time. Oh yes, from the word go. It was going to be native to the Internet. I mean, seven years later I think we'd been proved right in that no dream whatsoever of putting ink on paper and [00:13:00] you know, having the delivery trucks rollout or any of that sort of stuff we believed in. And we're very committed to this being a digital, uh, new source. But at a very early stage people said, this is great, you know, where have you been all my life? What were you telling? What kind of stories? Just stuff that struck our fancy. Um, both, both things. Both little things. You know, I saw this, I was curious about it. Speaker 2:I tried to find out, but also, you know, started going to city council and writing about that. And He, Berkeley and [00:13:30] Berkeley, eons have a very distinct view of themselves. I can recall people pushing back at us and saying, well, you haven't been here for 20 years so you don't understand anything and you're never going to understand anything because he, and uh, we rejected that. We didn't think that person or people that said that were correct. And I think, you know, we've had the last laugh on that one. Let's talk more about that. How you ramped up, what got you on the map? All of our, our growth has been organic. [00:14:00] You know, people saying to friends, Hey, you know, did you see this story on Berkeley's side? What on earth is Berkeleyside? Oh, you don't get Berkley side. You know, you should have a look at it and it ran. Speaker 2:It remains free and you do. So it has been entirely growth by word of mouth, but there is beyond doubt. There are some stories that, you know, capture greater attention. You know, an early story in Berkeleyside was the gourmet ghetto mountain lion, you know, which [00:14:30] we covered, you know, from early in the day. It happened in the middle of the night. Uh, you know, a mountain lion wandered down from the hills into the gourmet ghetto was seen, reported to the police, the police, you know, deployed, uh, eventually found the mountain lion much to the sadness of many. But I think the only choice the police had was they had to kill this mountain lion. All of us, you know, from comics and TV shows, you think, oh, why didn't they use a tranquilizer [00:15:00] dart? It turns out that if you shoot a mountain lion with a tranquilizer dart, it can probably run for a mile and a mile and a half. Speaker 2:And you do not want a mountain lion running through the streets when, you know, we have, you know, homeless people, we have children that might've been out, you know, for some reason, um, a whole bunch of reasons where you do not want a mountain lion running through the street anyway, the police had to kill this mountain lion. Uh, we wrote about this, uh, it's the kind of story [00:15:30] that does go viral. And so that gave us a burst. Fast forward to when there were the large black lives matter protests and demonstrations in Berkeley. You know, we covered that literally around the clock, you know, reporter following what was happening, writing about it live, you know, tweeting, Facebooking, updating the story on our site. You know, posting videos round the clock without cece and our readership really spiked [00:16:00] during that, Speaker 3:picked up by other news outlets. Speaker 2:It certainly was picked up in many places. We covered it better than anyone else. You know, the protests were big enough that lots of media were covering that story, but we covered it. You're so visibly better than anyone else. Lots of people learned about Berkeleyside then. And that gave us a huge base. The balcony collapse, uh, you know, was a story covered all around the world. But several days after the balcony collapse when most of the world's media had left because the story had [00:16:30] moved on, you know, I think in the next two or three months after that collapse, we published 60 stories about the balcony collapse. So we are committed to what's happening in this city and we follow stories with an intensity and a concentration that other people are just not going to do. And you know, the thing we always talk about as both our joy and our burden is that, you know, when people smell, spoke or hear a siren, [00:17:00] the immediate thought they have or hear a helicopter they think is, I need to look at Berkeley cyclists. They're going to tell me what's going on. We love that. But it also means, you know, we have to be on our toes all the time to reward that faith that people [inaudible] Speaker 3:we'll have that. We'll be reporting on it. Yeah. Know, I feel like with this recent election that there's almost a bigger faith in local news coverage because so much of the national media gave a pass to the president of luck. There were a lot of issues around media. Yeah. I think cable news [00:17:30] blew it. Yeah. Speaker 2:More than, uh, newspapers blew it. I mean, the Washington Post in particular I think did a fantastic job of covering your David Farren told on the fraud of the Trump foundation. Um, you know, if he doesn't win the Pulitzer and every other prize going, something is very wrong. So there's some that did a very good job. Yeah, New York Times was very up and down. It had, you know, Maggie Haberman and a few others. There were some great reporting, but there were also, you know, totally freaking [00:18:00] out about the nothing burger of the emails on Hillary's side and also for a long time normalizing very abnormal behavior. In the case of Trump, I mean, they eventually caught on and called lies, lies. But there was, it took a long time. Speaker 3:And what was, what were the cues that were missed there? If the data was wrong, the polls were wrong. Speaker 2:This is not my area of expertise. I read about it endlessly, but you know, I'm reading other extras that the Poles actually weren't wrong. Nate silver has pointed out that the polls [00:18:30] are going to turn out to be more accurate for 2016 than they were for 2012. What wasn't accurate were the state by state polls. The national polls got the vote pretty close. Hillary is going to end up being probably 2% with 2% more of the vote. Then Donald Trump at the level that counts, uh, the 50 contest in our states with electoral college. Some of the polls fell down very badly. You know, Michigan, Wisconsin. Speaker 3:[00:19:00] You've talked about some of the challenges facing Berkeley side. I just read a University of Missouri study that said many of the challenges are reduction in revenue from display advertising and just being sustainable. You've managed to stay sustainable. Can you talk about what your revenue model is and some of the things that you're doing in order to remain sustainable? Speaker 2:We make revenue three different ways and I think it's an important that we have different, we have a diversified source of revenues. Uh, we're not relying on any one source. [00:19:30] I think that's incredibly important for us. Advertising remains the most important source. The second important source of revenue for us is our members. Berkeleyside doesn't make people pay for the news. And as far as we're concerned, we'll never make people pay for the news, but we allow people to pay for the news. What we have found remarkable, and this is another area where I think Berkeley in this are proving to be a very special breed of people. When we ask people, do you want to pay for the news? A lot [00:20:00] of people say, sure, I'll pay something. And we have about 1200 people who pay an average of about $70 a year Speaker 3:membership. Do you say pay what you can? You Speaker 2:know, if you go to the support page on Berkeleyside, uh, what you see prominently is give 25, 10 or $5 a month. But you can also see below that give whatever you want. And so it's choose your own menu. Is this growing every year? Have you been met? Every year has grown, no question about [00:20:30] it. And we think there's a lot of room for growth in the revenue there. But as I say at the moment, we have about 1200 members a giving an average of $70 a year. So those members, our readers and certainly our members, overwhelmingly Berkeley fans. And then third area of revenue. And it's another one where we think there is a lot of room for growth is events. You know, we've recently had the fourth edition of the uncharted ideas festival. It's grown every year. How many [00:21:00] people came out? We had about 400 people. Speaker 2:You know, one of the reasons why there are a number of reasons why we think there is a lot of potential with uncharted and potentially other events. Um, one is, although there's a lot of room we believe for growth with our core Berkeleyside, the advertising, the membership, we're clearly geographically constrained with that. There are only so many people, so many advertisers that want to reach those people. So many people that could be members with uncharted, we don't have [00:21:30] that geographic constraint. We have a scattering of people and at the moment it's only a scattering. But you know, there's a couple that comes every year from San Diego. You know, they make it kind of part of their plans. A, some people come from uh, Napa County and you know, they, you know, one woman said to me, this is so fantastic, you know, nothing like this happens where I live, you know, I'm going to get all my friends to come so we're not geographically constrained. Speaker 2:We're also not constrained in terms of the companies we can go to [00:22:00] who can sponsor on charter in their mini Davos, which I used to run Dava. So I actually don't think it's a mini Davos in any way. Cause Davos is about, uh, the super rich and the super powerful, the dirty secret of Davos and many things like Davos is powerful. People are often uninteresting or certainly uninteresting at the level of ideas. It is vanishingly rare for a CEO to be interesting, at least [00:22:30] interesting on a public stage. Most of them are trained to give you oatmeal all the time because what's wrong for them is saying something that's going to be interesting or quotable or different. That's a bad thing for them. We don't want those people that uncharted, we want people who are going to provoke you and make you think and make you challenged what you've always thought and perhaps you disagree and perhaps you disagree, but certainly introduce you to things you never thought [00:23:00] about before. Speaker 2:That's a very, very different challenge. And the liberation for me of doing what we do with uncharted is I can pick people who have no impressive title whatsoever that people have not heard about, but they are fascinating thinkers and we can put them on stage. And I, you know, I, I kind of hope and believe you will be hearing from these people, but you don't need those credentials in advance to get on the stage. That uncharted. And that's, that's very liberating for us. And I think it's fascinating [00:23:30] for the people who come. So, so it's advertising membership events and we think that tripod of revenues is he to our health. I have noticed on your site, and I also read about it in the chronicle, that you are introducing something that your readers Speaker 1:to invest. This is an interesting democratization of a local newspaper. Speaker 2:Well we think, we think it's, it's good and we're increasingly certain that we're the first news organization, maybe the first media organization to [00:24:00] do this. A direct public offering is a very little known, the long existing way to offer an investment direct to the public without going through a stock exchange, without going through an investment bank, without, you know, the kind of Kickstarter and things like that or you know, I think a great way for people to raise money in various ways. But this is actually a real investment. The States Department of business oversight reviewed what we were doing. [00:24:30] They had to license us and were going directly to our readers and to other interested people. You have to be a California resident. That's the only qualification to encourage them to invest directly in Berkeley side. And it's something the Green Bay packers did a, you know, the only community owned team in the NFL and it just felt this is the right thing for us. This Berkeley side, we're all about the community we serve. So this is the right way for us to raise them. Speaker 1:Does feel good [00:25:00] to invest in your community? Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. It's, it's main street, not Wall Street. People must be really watching this. Um, we had a very good story. I'm Nieman lab. The Neiman center is at Harvard University. They a study and a research, uh, the media, you know, funded by the Neiman Foundation, a Nieman lab wrote about it. So I think a lot of people in the know in media and journalism would have seen that at the San Francisco Chronicle. Just wrote about it daily. Cal wrote about it and I think we'll get more [00:25:30] coverage for it because if there's one thing journalists are very interested in, it's what's happening to other journalists. Right? So I think it's the kind of story that, um, we think, you know, we'll get picked up and other people were right about it. We're licensed to raise $800,000. That's our goal. Um, that's what we're really committed to. We're about a quarter of the way there and it's very, very early. Speaker 1:I'm sure it's closely watched because it could become a great model for other [inaudible]. Speaker 2:That's exactly right. I, I don't think there's any one model for what's going to make local [00:26:00] news thrive, but I think our diversified revenue stream and our using this direct public offering as a way to raise the capital so we can fund our ambitions and you know, we want to do so much more. That's why we're raising capital. Speaker 1:What is the future of Berkeleyside? Speaker 2:We are committed to covering Berkeley as well as it can be covered. That's the core of our existence. Will we create at some point Oakland side that's such an enormous task and Berkeley as a city of 120,000 [00:26:30] people, we've largely bootstrapped our way to covering that. Covering a city, the complexity of Oakland, four times the size of Berkeley, more than four times the complexity of Berkeley. You'd need really significant investment to do that. Well maybe one day, I don't think in on a five year horizon. That's the right thing for us. Um, we are strategists. Where are you? Where are you going to be? I'm very skeptical of the value strategy. I [00:27:00] I think know strategy is helpful in that it can present different scenarios and things like that. I think people that plan out what they're going to do that never happens. Uh, you know, plans, confront reality and things change. Speaker 2:I'm a firm, firm believer, you know, there's this notion of design thinking. You talk about innovation, you've probably encountered it but you know, design thinking as opposed to engineering thinking and engineering thinking would be, yes, we have a strategy and I've got 20 steps that are going [00:27:30] to take me to this goal that I've decided is where we want to get. Um, a design approach is more, I know it's going to be a chaotic process. I know that there are going to be twists and turns that one can't predict, but I have a north star that I'm, I'm aiming at and that we will find our way to and our north store is, is being the best possible local, independent online news provider. Um, our core focus is Berkeley [00:28:00] because we solve Berkeley. We may say, Hey, we've got, got it right in Berkeley. Let's look at who knows what other other areas. Speaker 2:Um, but we need to get Berkeley, right? And we think there's, you know, we think we've done a great job over seven years, but we've got a long way to go to, to really solve that and say, this is done. You know, it's sustainable. It's, it's working. There's no question about its future. Now we can start looking at other things. [00:28:30] I knew it'd be a real distraction for us to say, Hey, let's add two other cities or something like that. That's a way to, to collapse. At the very early stage of this conversation, you asked about lots of online news operations of folded a, the one thing that is certain in a lot of people have gotten wrong is journalism doesn't scale. We've done a lot of good things with Berkeley side, but that doesn't mean it's an algorithm that you can just roll out in another city and you'll get it right patches. Speaker 2:A [00:29:00] fantastic example. They made the mistake of thinking you create a 800 patches patch, part of AOL, a now owned by a mysterious, uh, you know, uh, private equity group that they're just Zombie sites that don't do anything. But you know, they said, oh, just like newspaper chains. We're going to create a digital chain and we're going to create 900 of them over the next two or three years. That's nonsensical. That doesn't happen. And you know, we know because we [00:29:30] know the difficulty of doing it right in Berkeley, how hard it is to get it right for your city. And that's what, they're not fungible and journalists aren't fungible. You need to the right person and the right people who know and are committed to that city. If you go to berkeleyside.com and look at the contact page and our phone numbers, their email addresses are there. You can write to us tips@berkeleyside.com and if you're interested in the investment, it's invest.berkeleyside.com [00:30:00] you know, we are open. We want to talk to people. We want to hear from people. We're very engaged with our Speaker 1:right off the canvas and the we work building lean and mean take sack. We very lean very much. Thank you for being on the program. Thanks a lot, Lee. You've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. Tune in next week, Friday at noon. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Comedian Irene Tu co-hosts comedy shows Hysteria, Man Haters, and the Mission Positions around the Bay Area. She was recently named one of KQED's Women to Watch.TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:Method to the madness is next. You're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators today, UC Berkeley student, and a sterling. We'll interview comedian Irene to about her recent work. Speaker 2:[inaudible] Speaker 3:[00:00:30] so I got this haircut recently. Anna used to have a really long hair and people would come up to me a lot and asked me if I was gran, which I am not. I'm Chinese. And right after it got this haircut, [00:01:00] my mom was like, oh, you look Japanese. Really? I was going for straight and if we didn't get that last joke or how I'm dressed, I'm very stylish. [inaudible] stylish, I mean gay. Speaker 4:Welcome to [00:01:30] the show, Irene too. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Uh, so you live in the East Bay now, but you're originally from Chicago, right? Right. Or nearish, right. And suburbs. So it depends on who you ask for. Sure. Why did you move out here? Um, I actually went to school in Berkeley, uh, here at UC Berkeley. Uh, so that's pretty much the only reason I moved. And when I was a girl, I was like, I wanted, uh, I want to move to California. So this was like my best way to leave Chicago. Yeah. And [00:02:00] what'd you study? I majored in Asian American Studies. So in this building then rev five floors up in Barrows, embarrass hall. Fantastic. So it's Kinda, it's a little bit of a homecoming growing a little, I didn't know Calex was in the basement. I know. We're always, I think we like to like pride ourselves on like, oh, we have a world-class operation, but just stepped into our basement. Speaker 4:But a little creepy, eh, sorry. It's cozy is how I like to think my window. Listen, cozy. What differentiates the bay area comedy scene from [00:02:30] other cities? I would say, well, I started in Chicago and then I moved here. So I did a little bit of comedy there and then I moved here. And, uh, in every comedy scene there's like some, you know, really great comics who've been doing it a long time. And then there's like newer Comedians, I think here, um, people move faster, um, since la is so close, um, like when they get good or they feel like they're good at comedy, they'll move to la right away. And in other scenes, like in Chicago, people stay longer just [00:03:00] because it's so much of a move to go to like New York or to La. Um, so in that regards, I think we have a lot of newer comics or the turnover's higher here. Speaker 4:Um, and definitely more diversity here. A lot of the comics in Chicago are, uh, White, probably 95%. Uh, and here, you know, I'm here, uh, and a bunch of other comics that are, you know, different I guess quote unquote. So to see what you imagine your typical [00:03:30] comedian to be a little less Louie, I know that like Dave Chappelle once set, you know, he did a special here and he kind of said that the audience was savvy or do you notice like a difference in audience? I don't know if we want to self aggrandized a little bit, but, um, I love doing shows here. I'll do, I do a bunch of shows at Oakland and in San Francisco and I feel like, um, I can say whatever I want and there'll be on board for the most part, although sometimes people argue that, um, some of the audiences are like to PC. Speaker 4:Um, like if you [00:04:00] talk about certain topics and you don't do it in a extremely funny way, it might, they might be turned off by it. Um, but for me, I feel like I get to explore whatever topics I want and I'll know if it's good or not based on the reaction. Um, can you give me an example? I've been trying to do jokes about like Anorexia, you know, which is kinda not often talked about. And I feel like if it's funny enough, they'll laugh and if it's not funny enough, they're [00:04:30] just like, nope, I don't want to talk about it. You know, we're like Hitler, it's all we, it always comes down to him. It's like a, is that a good Hitler joke or is that a bad Hitler joke? Qualities of Hitler. Yeah, exactly. Okay, that's good to know. I'll keep that in the, the Noggin. Speaker 4:What made you realize that you wanted to be a comedian? I'm, I tell this in every interview because it's true and I'm hoping it'll get back to her. I love LNG generous. Um, so when I was in high school, I was like, I want to be just like her. And [00:05:00] I looked up on Wikipedia what she did to become famous, it like and beloved by everyone in America. And it turns out she started by doing stand up. So then I was like, oh, I'll do stand up. And I, you know, I liked being able to say whatever I wanted. Like I was like an only child and I don't like to talk to people a lot. I'm pretty introverted, so stand up is my way of like expressing my opinion without actually having a two way conversation with a stranger. Um, so yeah, I just started doing standup and I, you know, [00:05:30] I like to be goofy and that was like my best outlet of expressing myself. Speaker 4:So just started doing more and more stand up and at some point and like I never really wanted to be a comedian. That wasn't like my dream, but at some point I was just like, oh, well I guess I'm doing it so much. And I like it. I guess we'll just do comedy. Um, when I was prepping for this interview, Ellen Degeneres came up enough in the stuff that I was looking up that it's my, uh, my next question. Yeah, no, I, I will literally name drop her every single time until I, her and then even that, I'll probably still do it. So have you ever [00:06:00] moved to la? That's just, that's the first thing. I will probably just be outside her house every day. Don't tell her that. Yeah. Just keep that. I don't know where she lives, but I'm sure it's not that hard to find that. Speaker 4:And uh, any special quality that you like about like her comedy? She is so, um, likable. Just like every single person I've ever met likes Ellen degenerate. And if you don't, I think you're not a human being. Um, yeah, it's just like a, like when she came out, [00:06:30] um, everyone kinda was like, oh, she's gay. And like they weren't on board for that. But like now she's made such a resurgence that everyone loves her. And I just think that's amazing. And that was always surprising cause I grew up with like fourth iteration, Ellen Degeneres. And then if I go, which one was that? The talk show Ellen Talk Show Ellen. Right. And so I was just like, I was always like, it took me a while to figure out that she had been famous for like 20 years at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was like, stand up Ellen and then sit calm. Speaker 4:Ellen. And then the Ellen that disappeared for like three or four years [00:07:00] because people were like, oh, gay people. And then she's like, talk show famous salad. Yeah. Do you have like a fave joke of mine or if someone else's, Oh, let's start with yours. Um, it kind of depends. I think a, I get sick of my jokes after awhile, so whatever is my newest joke is usually my favorite. Um, I'm not gonna tell it on the radio cause I don't think that's gonna land. Great. Uh, and it'll just be me talking [00:07:30] and then like silence, uh, we can add laugh tracks. I don't know. I feel like it'll feel bad for me. Okay. You know, for sure I went for, usually my favorite joke is the newest joke that I've written that I feel, um, you know, most excited about because if you tell a joke for like a year or two, which you know, comedians do, they're not off the top of their head all the time. Speaker 4:Um, you just kinda get sick of it. You know, you have to keep pretending it's the first time you've ever told it, but it's like definitely like the 500th time you've told it. [00:08:00] So. Yeah, definitely new jokes are my favorite. And, um, for a nother comedian, I also love Tig Notaro and uh, I love her. Uh, no molest ago. Uh, I did some shows in Mexico and like everywhere I go, as soon as I check into my hotel room, I immediately hang the do not disturb sign on the door or for the Spanish speaking, no molest day. Speaker 3:[inaudible] [00:08:30] that was kind of a creepy feeling hanging that on my door before bed. [inaudible] nope. [inaudible] not tonight. [inaudible] couple doors down. Speaker 4:Actually after I did that joke, when I [00:09:00] know Maha, this guy came up to me and he's like, just so you know, I'm a Spanish interpreter and molest day means to a noise or bother. Speaker 3:[inaudible] Speaker 4:how would you say that, like your queerness has like influenced your [00:09:30] comedy, if at all? Um, well I definitely, when I first started doing comedy, I was not out and I was just trying to do, um, comedy, not based on myself at all. So I'd talked about other things and this was like when I was like 16, 17. I like, yeah, I was like, let me start doing, stand up. I did not know what I was doing. I don't even remember what my first joke was. It was probably about Allen. I don't know. Uh, just a straight Ellen said, just talking about how much I [00:10:00] love Ellen. Yeah, I dunno. It probably was true. Um, and then, uh, it was in college and I was like trying to do more stand up and I was like, oh, I guess I'll come out now. And I think I came out in my standup before really came out in real life, which is kinda how I feel about standup. Speaker 4:But a lot of times I share more talking on stage then, uh, like interpersonally. Like if we met on the street and we talked, I would probably tell you like very little about me. But if you see me on stage for like 10 minutes to learn, like way too [00:10:30] much about me. Why do you think that is? Cause I, when you, when you're on stage, you don't really know everyone in the audience. It's kind of just like an a morphous blob of like, oh, these are other people and I'll never meet them again. Go, you know, you might, but in, in your brain you're like, these are just random people. But if I like see you, I feel like I kind of know you and you're judging me when we're talking. So then I'm like, ah, I don't know. But if I'm just talking to a random blob of people, I'm like, I don't care what they think. So, uh, then I just [00:11:00] feel like I can share whatever and then I go home and I'll never see them again. I like the idea of just calling like a group of people that blob. Oh yeah. Yeah. I'm just going to do that from now on, just like crowds. Those are blobs and just to just a big ole friendly blogs, like an Amoeba. I know, Speaker 1:beginning of life. And if you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators [00:11:30] today. Anna stir law is speaking with comedian Irene too. Speaker 4:And so let me ask, how has being a person of color influenced your comedy and kind of follow up your desire to create like man heaters in hysteria? Um, yeah, it's definitely harder of course. Uh, as a person of color to do comedy, you know, people are so racist. [00:12:00] Uh, you know, people are like, oh, you know, it's not that right now. It's still comedy, so racist. A lot of people of color will do race jokes that sort of make fun of themselves in like a traditional stereotypical way, which I kind of hate. And I always try and do comedy as a person of color when I talk about, you know, the issues. Uh, but you know, try and put a spin on it or be like, you know, this is how I feel about it. Instead of just being like, you know, Asian people [00:12:30] can't drive or like something dumb like that. Speaker 4:I don't even know where that stereotype came from. Um, yeah. Yeah. I know like Hari Kondabolu has like a rule that he doesn't, he'll like make jokes about his mom, but like, we'll never use an accent or I don't think I can also, number one, I'm bad at accents and also I will not do an accent. I can't even pretend to be like a dude, you know, like I can't do any kind of accent whatsoever or change my voice, so I'm not gonna totally butcher [00:13:00] it. So it's nice to have a layer of excuses of just like, yeah, yeah. If I did my mom, like her voice would just be my, also my same voice, but I'll just like turn the other direction, I guess. I don't know. I was also, I was wondering how has that changed at all, that kind of personal, being personal on the stage as you've kind of made a name for yourself and we, that was the question in the CME. Speaker 4:Uh, I was just like, what are we talking about blobs? Um, yes. So I've started talking more about myself, um, [00:13:30] and like my point of view on life and things that I go through. And uh, you know, as I've done more and more comedy, sometimes people will come to the show to see me specifically, which I'll always like baffles me. I'm like, oh, I would never get to that. I never thought I'd get to that point where people would come and actually want to hear what I had to say and not just comedy in general. So weird. Um, yeah, super weird. Especially the ones like I work in Berkeley at East wind and sometimes people will stop by and they'll be like, hey, you're that comedian. Right. [00:14:00] And I was like, yeah, like I'm at, I'm at work and I didn't think that someone would recognize me while I'm sitting at the cash register and they're like, oh, I'm going to come to your show. Speaker 4:And I was like, okay. So strange. Your famous in the bay area for no. Okay. Okay, good for, for, for a hysteria and man heaters, the shows that you cohost. Yes. Yes. Um, and can you walk me through [00:14:30] why you chose those particular names? Um, sure. So, uh, hysteria is a women in queer comedy open mic that I run every Tuesday at Martinis from six to eight ish. Uh, and we chose the, as me and Jessica Seeley, who's a great comedian, she moved to La. Um, but I still run the Mike now. Dom, Joanne, who's a friend of mine and really great comic. Um, and we chose the name hysteria because, uh, you know, people [00:15:00] historically have called women like hysterical. You're just like, oh, like, you know, she's like crazy, you know, so we took that name to kind of be like, yeah, we're just gonna, you know, reclaim it. Speaker 4:So that's why we call it hysteria. I would knew it had something to do with like that down there, situation down there just, and I was like, that just sounds like a great name for an open mic. Let's do it. Yeah. And then, man, haters of course, uh, are, you know, it's very a direct name for the show. So me and [00:15:30] Ashley should run that show in Oakland every fourth Thursday at the white horse. And we named that because, uh, we're both queer. So, and you know, sometimes like, you know, lesbians or you know, Queer people, but we'll be called like, man haters. Um, because they're like, oh, you guys hate men, right? It's like, no, we don't hate men, but we hate like patriarchy and all that. And we decided you'd be like, yeah, you know what? Let's just call the show man haters and just be like all out. Speaker 4:Cause like people will know right away, this show is like going to be very queer and, [00:16:00] uh, you know, anti, uh, not men, but you know, like not patriarchal. We wanted our comedy show to be like, Hey, let's showcase, um, w again, women and Queer Comedians, you know, people that are not generally seen as quote unquote comedians and people who get, you know, offered less stage time or opportunities. So we're just going to call it man haters. Uh, and it got very popular. I don't know, I thought we were going to get vilified for the name, but people kind of love it. It made little buttons that say, man hater. [00:16:30] Then, you know, they'll wear them outside in the street. So just it, just the name. Just put it out there. First off. Yeah. We're just like, it's gonna be called man haters. And I think we call it like, man haters, women, queers, comedy on the Facebook thing. Speaker 4:So they're not just like, oh, what's man haters? Like a secret organization's like, no, no, no, we just, it's a comedy show. It's fine. Why did you make a space for Queer and feminist? Like women oriented comedy? Um, if you go to a lot of open mics or shows, you'll notice they're sometimes very aggressive [00:17:00] and a lot of, uh, terrible jokes that, you know, kind of hate on women or it's like, ah, my wife sucks. We're like, ah, like terrible rape jokes. You know? And it's not really welcoming and say for especially newer comedians like newer female comics to, you know, try to find their voice cause everyone's just trying to figure out what they want to talk about in comedy. And if you don't feel comfortable when you start out, you don't really want to do it anymore. So we were like, hey, let's do a show where, you know, you feel like you can actually participate in doing comedy. Speaker 4:[00:17:30] And then after a while you can do the other shows that have like seven dudes in like one token female. But, uh, you know, it's, it's definitely like a, it's Kinda like training wheels. But you know, at this point our shows like super great that I think it's like arguably the best show in the bay. So I'm like, I feel good about it. You know. How do you just make it that space where you're performing maybe for the first time? Welcoming? I think La has a lot to do with, um, like the hosts. So like when we host the show, [00:18:00] we, you know, emphasize like it's a women and queer comedy show or like, you know, these are all the comics. Like we just try and make it seem like, oh we, you know, it's more like I put myself out there and like, Hey, I'm like a woman, a queer comic and then I'll tell like my jokes and, you know, we're very open. Speaker 4:Uh, and I think our openness allows the comics. Uh, a lot of the audience will be like, Hey, you know, we're on board for this journey and they feel comfortable. I've never felt like it was super hard to make the space welcoming. Um, cause sometimes [00:18:30] if you go to an open mic, like the host themselves are kind of real aggressive and negative and like that that vibe is hard to overcome cause you know, the host sets the tone for the show. So I think if, you know, your hosts are like, hey, you know, these are, it's not really like rules, but these are kind of like, you know, these are Kinda the ground rules. Like, Hey, you know, be cool. Uh, these are all women comics. It's not quote unquote a safe space. Meaning we don't talk about, you know, certain topics, but it's like we are all female comics or queer [00:19:00] comics talking about these things. Speaker 4:And you know, if you want to laugh, laugh, um, if it's not funny, well sometimes some couple of things we say will not be funny, but this is what we've got. Yeah. And what impact do you think this is had on the bay area comedy scene? Um, I think, uh, we've had definitely more women in queer comics starting comedy. I've seen a lot of newer comics I've never seen before. Uh, and our show has gotten very popular [00:19:30] that, you know, even the dude comics were like, hey, that's a really good show. And I'm like, yeah. Uh, so it's definitely just like, it feels like, uh, we ha we've marked like our place in the comedy scene. It's not just an outlier. It's like, hey, we're an integral part of the scene. And also we get a lot of audience members that wouldn't go to like, quote unquote regular comedy shows, you know, a lot of, um, you know, people from the queer community to come to our show exclusively. Speaker 4:Or people would be like, hey, this is our first comedy show ever because we're afraid to [00:20:00] go to like a comedy club in case we're like picked on are people like, say, homophobic stuff. So that's pretty cool. Um, yeah. Huh. That's nice to hear. And are, what are some of the kind of up and coming comedians that you've seen sort of pass through, uh, man heaters or hysteria? Um, um, that like are my favorite comics, basically local comics. Okay. I love, uh, Corinna Dobbins. Jessica Seeley, who I did hysteria with. Um, [00:20:30] I like Shea Belle, uh, dom Jelan, you know, Ash Fisher, my other cohost, uh, in dams, one of my cohost, you know, this, this seems like nepotism now, but like there are like, you know, when you're working with people that are also funny, you're like, well, they're my friends and they're funny. Um, your friends for a reason. Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly. Like we get each other right, right. Ah, who else is super funny? I don't know. That's just what came to mind immediately and I hope that someone doesn't listen to this. Like, hey, why don't you say my name? I just forgot. We can just add that on. If you think of anyone afterwards, [00:21:00] just recording and you can just record like 55 minutes at the, yeah, the whole entire like scrubbed this interview. It's just 50 names of committees, which you know is great. You know, when they do those lists on the Internet, it's like, oh, like 50 the best comics you should know or like blah, blah, blah. Every, all like, every comedian kinda hates those lists cause they look like leave off great comics, but they're good publicity. Yeah. You can't. So now, you know, if I did do two hours of just naming names, I would feel okay about it [00:21:30] and be helping everybody. Speaker 4:I'm helping everyone out. Right. Uh, you were recently honored by Kqbd as a woman to watch. Yeah. I'm just going to stare at you for a little bit. Uh, yeah. Creepy. Uh, what's it like to see your face on a bus? Oh yes. That was insane. Yeah. They put up some ads on the Muni buses and some of the Muni trains in, in the bart stations. I don't know if I had one in a bard station. I did check all the stations, so they took them down. I know it's just cause I checked most of them except for, I think if mine [00:22:00] was at a Bart station would have been at Montgomery and I never take that station. And I was like, I'll get to it. And the, by the time I got to it, they were taken down and replaced with like ads for some tech thing and I was very upset by that. Speaker 4:Oh, that's a nice problem to have. Yeah. Mean, I remember when I actually saw my fit cause people were telling me, I knew they put the ads of it. I didn't see it yet. And then people are like, oh my God, I saw your face in a bus. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And I didn't see it. And then I was just in like downtown, uh, in the financial [00:22:30] district. I was walking around and I was like, Oh hey, that's me on a bus. And then I ran to the bus cause I wanted to take a photo with it and it stopped like briefly at a red light. And I was like trying to take a selfie with it and then it just like drove away and I did get the selfie. That was one. That's nice. Yeah. That's very nice. That's crazy. Speaker 4:Um, what advice would you give to a young female and or queer comic kind of coming up through this area? Um, just keep doing it. You might not be funny at first, but you know, you'll find your voice eventually. [00:23:00] So it's definitely more of a perseverance game, I think. I think the funniest comedians honestly, are not even Comedians, uh, because if you do comedy, you have to actually, you know, do all that work, doing comedy. And some people are so funny, they just don't want to go to an open mic or show every night. Um, so basically just keep doing it, keep writing. Uh, don't get discouraged and uh, you'd come to my open mic. We're very fun and friendly. If you want to, you know, try your first album might get something that people will sort of pay attention to and [00:23:30] you know, laugh at. Speaker 4:Uh, yeah. And then, you know, just make friends with everyone. Um, what are some shows that are coming up? Um, I just did man haters yesterday, but our next show is going to be the third Thursday of November, since Thanksgiving is the fourth Thursday. And I don't think anyone's going to come on thanksgiving, so it'll be November 17th. And that one's real fun. Let's see, what else do I have? I also have a show in San Francisco every month called the mission position that's at the Alamo Drafthouse, which is that awesome movie theater. In [00:24:00] the mission. How did you get your start in comedy? Um, so I took a class when I was, I think I was 16 in, uh, Chicago at the second city. It's a standup class. And uh, I was like me and like I think it was one of like one or two other people, very small class. Speaker 4:And I just go every week and you know, write jokes with the teacher and then, you know, do it for the other two people in the class. So it was kind of awkward for the, you know, your first four to stand up. Uh, and then, you know, we had a graduation show and that was [00:24:30] that. And I was still in high school so I did like sat up very periodically. So there was that cause for most open Mike's, they're at bars so you have to be 21 or older or at least the bars that card. Um, so I didn't really do a ton of open mikes unless they were like at a cafe. Um, and I did a lot of Improv instead cause that's a very like high school, college thing. It's like, I know group comedy, very fun. You can do it with your friends. Speaker 4:So did a lot of Improv in high school. Uh, and then, uh, I went to, I actually went to Northwestern [00:25:00] before I transferred to Berkeley, so I, there was a new stand up group on campus. So I joined that cause my friend was in it. And, uh, I really liked that cause you know, uh, my friend was in it and the other people were funny and I was like, oh, maybe I can just start doing standup again. So like started writing, uh, they would have a show every couple months. So I do that showcase and it was just, you know, like a snowball effect or of like, oh, more and more cavity and my friends are doing it and like it. Uh, and then I took a class at when I was a sophomore, [00:25:30] I think at, uh, in college, uh, with Cameron Esposito, she did a female standup class in Chicago that I took. Speaker 4:And I was like, oh, this is great, you know, uh, another awesome, you know, a queer female comic. And then I was like, oh yeah, I can do comedy too. So I just like, you know, did more comedy after that. And then, uh, I did a lot of comedy in college. I don't know why I finished doing college cause at that point I was like I'm done with school. I just want to do stand up. [00:26:00] Uh, and the, yeah. And then I graduated and now I'm just doing comedy and like I have a day job but like mostly comedy. And so where do you see yourself in five years? Um, ideally I would have my own Sitcom. That is what I want, but I will also take a small role in a movie if someone wants to offer me that, I will, sure. I'll host a talk show that I don't think I would be really good at that cause I'm not as uh, extroverted [00:26:30] as I think you would need to be to be a talk show. Speaker 4:But you know, who knows, they have like writers and stuff. I could, you know, I could wing that. I think in the city, I'm like snarky, so it's not if they're okay with like a snarky talk show host who like roast people sometimes that I could do that. Just low key, just like picks people in the audience and just like sometimes that like kind of mean. So I'm like, if you're okay with that at a, you know, maybe it's not on like network television, maybe it's on like some, some other cable channel on, on. Yeah. Number 699 right. You're right. Exactly right. [00:27:00] But I would love to have like a Sitcom on like ABC, NBC, something like that. That'd be cool. And would I feel like with a Sitcom would like then Ellen degenerate generous, would she be like, wow, okay. So if I had a sitcom it would be, I would love it to be like Ellen Sitcom in the 90s, which was great. Speaker 4:It was like based off of her sort of, you know, her character, but like, you know, uh, they took some liberties but it's like mace, but mostly based on me or like Roseanne. That was a great sitcom. And I also like the Carmichael show. It's a great, uh, like families who come, they talk [00:27:30] about the issues. So, you know, something where it's like based off of me. So I don't have to really be a great actor cause I don't think I'm an amazing actor. But I could be funny if it's based off of me. People be like, that's fine, you know, like as, and sorry. It's like, okay. No, it's kind of like him. Yeah. Persona. Yeah. It's just like him, but you know, 10 times heightened, you know? Yeah. What's your life philosophy? Whoa, that's a big question. What is my life philosophy? Uh, I think it's just to [00:28:00] be a better person every day that you, you know, uh, you know, make every day better than the day before. Speaker 4:Um, whether that be, you know, write a better joke than the joke that I did yesterday or, you know, try and go to the gym one more time. I haven't done this, like, this is my philosophy. I will will out say I've actually followed through on it, but, you know, try and be a better person in the day before. And, uh, you know, don't, don't be racist. And, uh, I think, you know, give opportunities [00:28:30] to people who haven't had them, like women or people of color, especially in comedy or like other things. Uh, give them opportunities that you, you know, even if you don't think they're ready right now, but if you think they will be ready soon, I would just give them the chance because a lot of times, uh, you won't get that opportunity. And I think you only get better if you get to fail. Speaker 4:So, you know, give people a shot. Even if you're like, hey, they got potential, just give them a shot. No one's gonna if you give someone [00:29:00] a spot on a show and they're like, almost like, it's fine, you know, and your show's going to be fine. No one gets hurt. Yeah, exactly. Just let people get more stage time. All right. And I think that's it in life. And I think that's interesting because it seems like comedy can kind of be a cutthroat world, just yes. And so it's interesting that you, you have more of that community trying to yeah, yeah, yeah. Approach. You know, I mean, if everyone does, it's Kinda like socialism. I don't know. But like not really cause there's no money involved, but you know, if you help everyone up, [00:29:30] eventually you'll all succeed. Supposedly. I live in a coat, man. That speaks to me. Hey, thank you. I mean to you for coming on our show. Thank you so much for having me. Have a great time. Speaker 1:You've been listening to method to the madness, a weekly public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. Tune in again next Friday at noon. Speaker 2:[00:30:00] [inaudible] okay. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

TRANSCRIPTSpeaker 1:You're listening to method to the madness on KALX Berkeley 90.7 FM. I'm your host, Stalin Huizar. And today we have with us Gus Newport, former mayor of Berkeley. Hey guys, how's it going? Fine, thank you. Good to be here. Uh, thanks for coming into the studio. Uh, and Gus is going to be with us today [00:00:30] talking about his illustrious career. He's had so many different amazing, um, experiences and achievements, a civil rights leader, uh, a beacon of the left. He's been involved in so many different things. So I wanna ask you about a few of the different experiences you've had, guests you can educate us. So first I want to start in Boston. Um, and with the Dudley Street project, it was already on the Speaker 2:way when I got there, I was a mirror of Berkeley for two terms, eight years and decided I didn't need any more. [00:01:00] I was invited to University of Massachusetts at Boston as the first senior fellow in the William in North Trotter Institute. I taught a class, um, alternative economics and public policy and people from the Dudley Street project started monitoring my class. Then I was asked to speak on several panels. It turned out, it started with a couple of guys, one in architect and one on news reporter who had discovered [00:01:30] that the poverty money that was being sent to Boston was being spent downtown to build up different areas around city hall and whatever else and wasn't getting to this part of Roxbury, whether it was real poverty, a lot of vacant lots and whatever else more is than the poverty money. What was that? It was CDB. Speaker 2:Junk is different kinds of money that came based on poverty, statistics in indexes and whatever else to upgrade, say the quality of houses, bring [00:02:00] jobs, uh, just beautified the place and whatever else that was, that was kind of money that was available to cities during that time. It had since the 60s going back to the Johnson era. So these guys put his initiative on the ballot, uh, for Roxbury to CC'd from the rest of Boston. And that blew the minds of the city. I first read about it in England, you know, through the Herald Tribune when I was over there visiting and they invited me to be on some of their early panels and things. So [00:02:30] because of what we'd done at w shoot and how East Palo Alto got formed when they're separated from Palo Alto down here. So it really was a shock to the city. And, um, they began working, engaging people, working with MIT, with department of Urban Studies and planning, gathering data and whatever else. Speaker 2:So it was a lot of vacant lots, a with a whole lot of debris on them because developers, what we [00:03:00] called the environmental racism in those days, we just dumped their debris because they didn't, didn't have to pay the tipping fees and all that, and there was no political might in these areas. So, uh, what kind of, uh, people lived in Roxbury at the time? Mainly black people from, uh, Cape Verde keep people from Haiti. Uh, some people from the Caribbean, et Cetera was like, as I recall, 30% black, [00:03:30] something like 27% Cape Verdean, another 15, 20% Latino and 10% white. And, uh, but, and this thing Hank thing happened after they started engaging and got organized, they decided they wanted to create an organization that would help turn around the city and they decided that the makeup of the boards, that community residents should control 50 plus percent of it and [00:04:00] they gave four seats to each ethnic group, didn't take it out of balance because of the numbers and the academics in Boston, which has more cows, colleges, university and place that blew their mind. Speaker 2:They said, my God, we didn't ever thought about that, but the people said we want to focus on the issues and not on each other. And so they came up with this study sheet organization that was an organization to create advocacy, planning and organizing. And because of the law in the state of Massachusetts, very sellable [00:04:30] Muse that a nonprofit can get eminent domain and 30 under certain circumstances, they said, we want to create our own master plan. And out of that master plan, they were given eminent domain authority to this day is the only nonprofit in the United States of America that was able to get that power. That's amazing. To guesthouse a little bit about, for people who don't know a lot about community development, what is a master plan or what is the purpose and function of a master plan? A master plan is to get all the data to look at the poverty index is to look at a [00:05:00] lack of jobs, crime, et Cetera, and things like that. Speaker 2:Look at the gaps, uh, take this data and create gis maps and whatever else so that you can educate everybody from people in the community to bankers to academics. We were very lucky because MIT assisted us, Tufts assisted us, Umass Boston, so we got a lot of help and they would send students to walk the streets with us to go door to door to get data so that we can create the agendas from that or whatever [00:05:30] else. But in communities like this, 70% has a household as single women and 70%. Right. And that that, that, that happens until this day. And they're shy about asking questions because they think they're not educated. They don't know. They come to find out that the questions they had were all similar. Everybody was concerned about the same thing. So this was an empowering sort of fact. We early on got a professional facilitation organization to come and teach facilitation skills to parents, [00:06:00] to young people, the small businesses, and to nonprofits so each could have a discussion and create an integrated sort of plan that became the master plan. Speaker 2:We asked the people, because most of them, their lives aren't stable because rental housing, you know, kept moving and going up. Just like we got today, almost the median cost for housing in Boston back in the eighties and those days is between 500,000 and million dollars. [00:06:30] Home-Ownership rents kept going, sky high, et Cetera, whatever else. So when you asked finally people within the master plan, what kind of housing do you want? We want affordable home ownership, if that's possible, to stabilize their lives. We willing to keep moving from place to place. And that's how we looked at the land trust. We went to the land trust. The first community land trusts in the U s was founded in southwest Georgia called new communities. And they got the idea by a group of people, including Slater, king, Martin Luther King's uncle Andy Young, [00:07:00] a guy named Dan Gel, nick who was on the Berkeley City Council from New York, but Jewish lawyer and whatever else. Speaker 2:And they had a meeting and we said a group of people to Israel to look at a plan for community land trust to create affordable home ownership into perpetuity for people who were farmers and whatever. And that's where we got the original. I do that there, the idea of preceded Israel and India, Mahatma Gandhi creating this kind of playing for people who are victims of the caste system. So we then brought [00:07:30] that over and we were able to get the banks to go along with it because we had the data, whatever else. And the banks created a community development corporation for affordable housing and one for small business. And because we challenged them. So that's when the community reinvestment that came on board. They put 50% community people on the boards and every bank put up between 500,000 a million dollars into that pot. And that's how we're able to turn this whole place around. We started out taking those vacant garden, fifth 15 acres of [00:08:00] 30 were owned by the city. They taken through tax arrears. The plan was so good, they conveyed those acres to us and we got them to mitigate the taxes. Then we use that as collateral to get a $2 million program related investment from the Ford Foundation to purchase the other 15 and all of that became collateral with other kinds of subsidies and whatever. So this is housing built into perpetuity for people with limited incomes that Speaker 1:yeah, and it's, it's so uh, it's such an interesting story, especially in today's time or we're struggling [00:08:30] with the concepts of affordable housing and the, the mayor's race here in Berkeley is kind of centered on that topic, but all throughout the bay area, it's a big deal. And what I think is so fascinating about kind of the innovations in your career, Gus, is your ability to kind of help ground up movements like this. This is very much the story of Delancey street project seems to be this facilitation of a budge, a bunch of the local neighborhood people and being able to take of their own kind of a future through the acquisition [00:09:00] of real estate and the building of this thing. For people who don't know what a community land trust is, can you explain to us kind of what does that mean? Speaker 2:Just as a nonprofit organization, which has the board, the land is taken into perpetuity by a plan to build, could be affordable homeownership, could be some co-op, it could be farms, it could be a variety of things based on what people think they most need. But that land, like I said, it's kept in the perpetuity, [00:09:30] which is 99 years to be utilized for something like that. So then private for profit developers can come in and just take it, uh, push people out or whatever else. If somebody who owns a home in Atlanta trust gets on their feet and generates better income when they sell it, they can't take out any more than 25% profit based on improvements they made. And whatever else at the house itself. They, the houses. Yeah. Right. They land is owned by the nonprofit organization. Speaker 1:[00:10:00] So it's a, it's a way to kind of create some shared ownership over us. And this was a big, you said it's uh, how big was the geographic? Speaker 2:It was 30 acres in the beginning, but it was sort of in the same area, sort of a blanket approach. It grew because other people, including people who even owned their own homes and wanted to move into it and the city came in as Dudley street to do this and all the other neighborhoods, even in a city as great [00:10:30] and as well, highly educated as Boston. And of course, you know, the financial analysis and all that stuff was actually finalized in the Kubota system in Israel and whatever else. So we had the knowledge of how to do that. And then we also had an institute for community economics, which is a national community land trust organization, which created community development. The suits that made there were banking funds available at lower income. I ended up directing ice [00:11:00] instead for community economics use after I, I ran Dudley Street. Speaker 1:Right. So I'm now 30 years later. What's the, what's kind of the epilogue of dead tissue is such an amazing project and has created, um, a lot of interest in community land trust. But how is it, what's, what's happened? The federal government a few years ago here to know Speaker 2:a program called prime neighborhoods or something like that. Dudley Street scored number one in the country. And for [00:11:30] that they get like I think 5 million a year for five years. And they were able to create their own charter schools based on planning with the community for what they wanted to see in their schools. An example of how to upgrade this cause they were able to get the best teachers in the school. They noticed that the, uh, the, uh, one, the schools, the schools for, for, for young kids, these kids were always coming home with scratches on their legs and whatever else. But, but, [00:12:00] but, but the school yard was made a CMN community convinced them to dig, get up and put sand in there. And after a while they had no more scars. So it's just common sense thinking which government school this and everybody else often doesn't think of, you know, always trying to cut corners and think they have such brilliant thing, but they're not focused on people all. Speaker 2:We had a lot of young kids who were in our, our junior group gets scholarships to Dartmouth and places like that [00:12:30] and they came back and continued to work in the area and whatever else and people began talking about that. My God, how did you help them do that? We were able to get them scholarships. That was just when student loans were starting to come online. And you know, as you young students, no student loans, it's just, it's criminal. I mean when I taught a graduate course, they, my teeth, I couldn't believe some of these young people coming out of college with student loans of 200,300 $400,000. It was just [00:13:00] terrible. So from a movement standpoint, those are the kinds of things you've got to focus on. And we're talking to Gus Newport is former mayor of Berkeley and has done so many different things. It's hard to explain them all, but we're talking about one of his major accomplishments is facilitating the devotees street project in Boston and community land trust. Speaker 2:That is still going strong to this day. One of the questions I have for you guys, kind of closing up that chapter is the governance structure. You talked about, which is really innovative of having community members who are kind of at the controls of a nonprofit [00:13:30] that owns a bunch of land. How, how did you guys set up the, a sustainable structure to keep it that way? Well, like I said, 50 plus one 51% of the all had to be community residents, but also you also had board seats for small businesses, for representatives of churches, for some nonprofits and a couple of seats. Even for elected officials though, we never filled those. Uh, and so everybody felt that [00:14:00] they had a role and you could have OK. And also the land that was conveyed to us from the city. We have, we call it four by four committee for the board representative, the four representatives from the city. Speaker 2:So we make common decisions on how to disperse that land at what time, you know, and whatever else. So it was a learning situation for everybody. So it's the way that the actual nonprofit is structured is that that structure has kept that authenticity of yes representation all these years, 30 years later. And that was written as we [00:14:30] learn new things. We would have amended from time to time, things that were more creative and more beneficial. But that's it. It's a constant analysis and learning thing. And today, do you know like the community land trust model, which is so successful in this instance? Are there a lot of other ones in the country today? There's about 400. I just came back from a conference in Park City, Utah, um, a month or so ago and it was very, very, very pleasant. A lot of people participating in such a, [00:15:00] um, we had a little bit concerns because the name of the national organization now is grounded, used to be grounded community solutions. The name got changed, the grounded solutions. And that's because three of the sponsors is Fannie may know wells Fargo and Citibank. So I'm going to go in back and challenge that. And I think with the likes of Wells Fargo and them, they ought to be glad to get whatever they can to clean up Speaker 1:their own. Yeah, we were talking to Gus Newport, former mayor Berkeley's his method to the madness on [00:15:30] KLX Berkeley 90.7 FM and Gus, let's, let's rewind a little bit in terms of, uh, your timeline of your career and talk about the time when you were elected mayor originally at Berkeley and kind of how that story came about because that was another kind of innovative time and, and uh, political, uh, environment that I think, uh, is very interesting story to tell, especially with this political season we're in right now. Speaker 2:Well, I first came to Berkeley in 1968 I was working with an organization [00:16:00] called you guys as research and Development Corporation in New York that was working with the Department of Labor on the new jobs programs and whatever else. I was sent both to Puerto Rico to do some jobs development programs as well as out here to California. And then I worked in Puerto Rico from 1971 to 74, the Department of Labor. And um, a friend of mine was running [00:16:30] federally funded programs and things for the city of Berkeley and invited me out to help them with some assistant youth develop jobs and other kinds of things. And I did a wage compatibility survey for nonprofit organizations in both Berkeley and Oakland to look at the compatibility of wages they were receiving and whatever else. And then I was put on the Planning Commission, the Police Review Commission, [00:17:00] and I was then hired back to the city, including the, I forgot what it was, another department. But I had to engage the laws of the nonprofit and community organizations. I work with BCA to reorganize their whole status. And we wrote a manifesto saying what all services city government should provide, whatever. And [00:17:30] uh, Speaker 3:yeah, Speaker 2:Berkeley's first black mayor, Wharton wide. There was an office when I got here, Berkeley had determined that it was going to take over PG and e and who have a Master Police Review Commission and Warren, why'd you move the middle and didn't do these things? So that was the first black man, right? So Ron Dellums and John George and BCA and other people asked me would I consider running PCA [00:18:00] was Berkeley to discuss this action. I still had to compete against somebody that was already a BCA member on city council. John Denton, who was a white lawyer. And we went through several weeks. You had to get two thirds of the vote before you could be the candidate. Um, I was nominated and it was funny thing because you know, Berkeley probably gets more credit [00:18:30] for being progressive city than it is. I mean, Berkeley is a good community with a population. 50% of the people had undergraduate degrees and 25% graduate degrees. Speaker 2:And there were a lot of what I call single issue liberals. They pulled on me cause they wanted somebody that was going against Warren. Why? Then of course I was also known having been a close friend of Malcolm x cause [00:19:00] I was trailing knock four days before he was assassinated and when he moved from the nation of Islam to the organization and for American unity, I was one of the founding members. So I was fairly well known for some of those things. That's why we're doing this documentary now because the country does not yet know how Malcolm and Martin Luther King will come close together and Ma Malcolm had given up violence and was moving to the civil rights movement and he and Martin Luther King were about to go before [00:19:30] the United Nations to file a suit against American hegemony, imperialism and colonialism. And one of the things we're getting this documentary is we've got a tape overhearing Jagger, Hoover, FBI saying these are the two most dangerous men in the world. Speaker 2:35 days after he made that statement, Malcolm was dead. Of course Martin Luther King got killed actually a year after he gave the speech to break the silence, you know, against the Vietnam War. So all those things, civil rights [00:20:00] and whatever else. Also teach you how to engage community development. Because when I was with the civil rights movement, I wrote the first concentrated employment training grants with department labor for Rochester, New York, my hometown and I and a guy named Bob Turner, Phd from Kansas State and a road scholar went to several cities, including Philadelphia to the, the Jewish economic vocational training and other kinds of places to look in job development and all these kinds of things. [00:20:30] So you know, you're not even thinking what are you learning what you're taking in, you're just on the run. So then you show up in Berkeley with that and you have a chance to be here. I want to ask you about that perfectly citizen actions that manifest that which was very famous. And you talk about Berkeley and I maybe having a um, Speaker 1:reputation that maybe it proceeds itself in terms of, or being a little bit more progressive than it is. But that document was very left wing, Speaker 2:right? It was. It wasn't, of course, [00:21:00] I'm not suggested. Berkeley wasn't very progressive. I'm because of cause the free speech Boohoo was founded here. Sure. About the same time as the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement and the antiwar movement. Yeah. And of course, so there was, there was, there was a lot of transition but, Speaker 1:and you were becoming mayor after a lot of those things were kind of transitioning into the 80s and a different timeline. But can you speak to a couple of the maybe revolutionary planks in that manifesto that Berkeley citizens [00:21:30] action and you as a leader kind of came to power on? Speaker 2:Well, for instance, we were the first city to divest that was on the ballot when I ran divest from South Africa in Africa. We were the first city to past domestic benefits, benefits for gay couples and stuff. What year was that? That would have been 1981 1982 and that's because there was a day, there was [00:22:00] a gay faction within the Po politics of Berkeley. And I don't know if you know the name Holly near [inaudible] who was one of the new song singers who was very close to Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda mentored her. She was a play in New York called hair, I believe it was. And Holly had her own recording company. She was gay. I was the first man on the board. Uh, going back to Tom Hayden [00:22:30] just dying. And we also work with him. And Jane Fonda actually did a fundraiser for me when I ran for mayor the first time in the day that I reported to my office. Speaker 2:When I took office, I walk in, there's all these TV cameras, Jane Fonda sitting at my desk. So it was just all these kinds of things. And there was a lot of student involvement in DCA too. We put students in. My appointed to the planning commission was a woman named Theresa Cordova who was getting her phd [00:23:00] and planning and um, she was at the Institute for Study Social Change that which was run by Troy duster who probably graduated more black and Latino PhDs than anybody. And Troy duster happens to be the grandson of Ida B. Wells. So I mean Troy was like my mentor. So I was a fellow at the Institute for Studies Change Here in Berkeley too, and he ended up the sociology department and one time. So all these things are in the mix. Speaker 1:Yeah. Well and such a fascinating story [00:23:30] in terms of the timeline, the history of what was going on. Then you got to, I think you, you very much viewed your time as mayor, as a kind of the bully pulpit to go and talk about a lot of progressive issues, not just right. Speaker 2:Very much so. For instance, getting back to the university, Harry Edwards, who's quite a spoke for us first, and you know who organized those three blacks that if raise their fists at 90 68 Olympics was on faculty and had more students attending his class. He taught [00:24:00] sports psychology and sociology, I think, and was quite ill. He had the most heavily attended Subaru who came time for him to get tenure. It was going to be a difficult thing, but, but Haman, Mike came in was the chancellor at that time and Haman said, we're going for it, but Gus, you're going to have to help us and other stuff. We did some national calling in Haman when he became chancellor, had been chair [00:24:30] of the planning school and both the law school he came to some of us with, some of the professors were progressive and said, Gus, I'm going after chancellor. He said, it's going to be difficult. They've never had a juice chancellor before. We pulled together everything we could, including national friends to assist and whatever else he became the chancellor. Speaker 1:Nice. Well it's so much, I mean, you've broken down so many barriers in your career and I, I, to [00:25:00] not end this interview without asking you about kind of where we sit today. It's 2016 and so many of the issues that you fought for in your civil rights career are still persistent today. Even though we have, we've had a black president, so we've made progress. And so I want to ask you from your seat of the wisdom and knowledge that you have, can you give us some of your, um, kind of positive thoughts about where we can take, um, our progressive society going forward [00:25:30] and kind of use a lot of the stuff that you've accomplished and consolidate those gains and go forward? Cause there's so much negativity around right now. I want to provide some positivity to people. You made a difficult, we'll use a buzz of thoughts. Um, okay. Well anyway, Speaker 2:no, I worked with Bernie Sanders and you know, the millennials were just great. I mean, uh, I was never so proud as the role [inaudible] played in movement. And a lot of them told us that after Bernie [00:26:00] didn't make it through the primary. And of course we know that there were problems in the primaries. I mean, Bernie didn't get 3 million votes that should've been to him in California, New York and other places in the Sierra delegates are a problem. Right? And, and a lot of the millennials told us they were not going to vote for Hillary because we have problems with Hillary. And with bill going back to welfare reform and NAFTA and Gatt and some things like that. And, but the old friend of mine, Jack O'Dell, who just turned [00:26:30] 93 last month was Martin Luther King's right hand man. And he wrote, um, I forget the NAACP had a, a regular paper that was created by WB Dubois freedom ways. Speaker 2:He was a co-editor. He called me from, he lives up in Vancouver, British Columbia now. And he said, brother Gus, he said, you know, I've always liked you because, [00:27:00] uh, even though you were greatly left as I was at the end, you use common sense. So I said, all right, bud, Jack, what are you getting at? He said, well, I was proud that you and Danny Glover worked for Bernie Sanders. But now the next step is the election itself. He said, remember you and I used to talk about when you got drafted in the military, when you reported to Louisiana, [00:27:30] um, Kentucky, that you weren't allowed to go and eat in certain restaurants as a black person says, yeah, remember we talked about there were places during the Jim Crow era, very close. We were people, black people were getting hung. I said, yeah, he said, we've moved past that, but if Donald Trump gets elected, we're going to go back to that. Speaker 2:He said, we may not totally agree with like Hillary, but we do at least know that she [00:28:00] won't carry us back to that and we can put our foot on her button and keep on pushing. You know, the next one we've got to go. So I said you right. So we started talking to millennials. I think looking at the polls and whatever now it looks like she's going to make it. I was sorta set back last week being in Tennessee and hearing some of these white, uh, organized people in the political move and talking about they thing's going to be violence in some of their neighborhoods or whatever else. And [00:28:30] so you have to have an analysis like Martin Luther King I always talked to about the beloved community. The beloved community basically was centered in the church. We had ministers that used to play a role out today. Speaker 2:Church doesn't play a great role in the inner city, but people shared everything. And because of segregation, blue collar, white collar, no collar, everybody lives side by side. But we're there to help one another. But I had to explain to people last week [00:29:00] that the beloved community was not an integrated community. It was a segregated community. Many of you were in the civil rights people, but you did not live in the beloved community. You lived in Peyton Dale or whatever they used to call that. Whether it was a whole lot of things going on. And that's what we got to get back to because when Mahatma Gandhi and other people were talking about nonviolence, this, that if you're going to turn around and society has to be a vision of love, Cetera, and whatever else, it's such an inspiration [00:29:30] and chair, um, at that, you know, pardon me for saying hell, can't wear it on. I buy the age, year out. We are still going so strong and a inspiration Speaker 1:to all of us. And thanks so much for coming in today guys. We'll be speaking to guests, Newport, former mayor of Berkeley. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.