Podcasts about zach not

Ade and Zach sit down and have an entertaining discussion geared around Black History Month, and they both share their experiences in being frustrated by an employer's mismanagement of the celebration. Ade also talks a little bit about the body butter company she started, and she and Zach spend some time reflecting on how far Living Corporate has come since its launch in early 2018. Thank you all so much for your support! We owe it to you.Ade's body butter company soft-launches soon, so make sure to follow them on Twitter and Instagram. Congratulations, Ade!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. And it's not just Zach. Ade: Ayyyye. It's Ade.Zach: It's Ade alsooo, yo, and we here, man. Look, it's Black History Month. It's 2020. You know, January was big trash, so we're just gonna start over. We're gonna count February as January--nah, just... 2020 is gonna have 11 months, that's all.Ade: Yeah, let's do that. I like that idea.Zach: Yeah, we're just gonna start over. So yeah, you know, it's Black History Month. Whole fresh new decade, and, you know, a few episodes have dropped. Downloads are popping, by the way. Like, they're really good, Ade. The numbers look good.Ade: Yay, that's awesome.Zach: Yeah, pretty good. So we both have a lot of stuff going on. What's up in your world?Ade: God, what isn't up? No, [laughs] I'm just really enjoying the ride. I got--you know, my first bit of code at my job was deployed successfully, went really well. I panicked a little bit near the end of the sprint there, but I got it all the way through, so I'm excited about that. I started my butter company, and my soft launch is February 10th, so I'm also really excited about that, just getting the opportunity--Zach: Hold on. Butter company? Like, what's up? Like, you making animal butter? Or, like, cooking butter? Or--Ade: [laughs] No, although somebody gave me the idea to do that. You know I love cooking and I love experimenting in the kitchen, so that was an idea that hadn't occurred to me. But this is the year of action, so I took action. [laughs] So now I have a company--obviously besides, like, this one--but I'm really excited. I've been connected with a bunch of really great folks within the, like, creative community, and I'm excited to see where this goes. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, hold on. We don't have to rush over to my stuff. Excited for you, congratulations on moving in action, moving in intentionality, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] That's great, you know? But anyway, you asked me about myself. Yeah, so look, things are going great. Really focused on getting ready for my wife and I's first child coming in, like... I mean, if she doesn't come early--if she doesn't come early it will be in, like, 6 weeks.Ade: Whoo!Zach: Right?Ade: Oh, my gosh. You're so close to the finish line. And I would like to reiterate here that Ade makes a fantastic first time. I'm just saying.Zach: It's great. I love that, 'cause I'd like to reiterate... [haha sfx] You know? [both laughing] Ade: You are so wildly disrespectful.Zach: Not at all, not at all. I just stay ready, you know? I just stay ready. I think for me it's, like, focusing on, like, the radical change that's about to happen in our family, in our lives, then, like, just doing, like, a reassessment of just everything else around me, right? Because, like, I think initially--and I'm sure most people who are preparing for children, they go through this too--you're kind of like, "Oh," you know, they'll just kind of fit into your plans, and I'm like--as I, like, kind of pause and think about all of the things I have going on, I'm like, "Dang, wait. Certain things are gonna have to shift and change." Like, it's not gonna just be like, "Oh, I'm picking up a new hobby," or starting a new podcast, like, this is a whole new person, a whole person that's about to be, like, active, actively involved and will have active present needs from myself and my partner for at least the next 18 years, right? If not the rest of their lives. So it's like, what does it look like? So y'all, this is not me alluding to the fact that the podcast is about to stop or anything like that, it's just more about life. Like, you know, talking to other fathers who had to make career decisions and think about, like, what did it look like for them to make adjustments, how do you communicate with your teams about being a dad and, like, the new responsibilities as a parent? Those are things I'm really excited to, like, explore and, like, really discover over the next few--you know, over the next months and stuff like that as I get ready for paternity leave and all that kind of stuff. Like, really just, like, being really clear with, like, what does it look like to, like, live in this new world? 'Cause, like, I don't know. Like, I'm 30 years old, so it's not like I'm--I'm not old, so I still have things--Ade: [whispering] Yes, you are.Zach: That's jacked up.Ade: [laughs] I too got shots in my pocket.Zach: That's crazy. I see you. But the thing about it is, like, I still have a few decades more of career to have, and so it's like I don't want to just, like, kind of sit on my laurels because I have kids. Like, what does it look like to still progress and have a career and, like, develop and do all these things while at the same time being a very present and attentive and engaged father? So normal stuff. Like, I think it's a challenge. It's a good problem to have. It's something that is--it's a problem created by growth, so to me that's a--I count that as a good problem. So that's, like, the main--the big, big thing, then the second thing is just, like, continuing to slow down and focus on, like, mental health. Like, my own personal mental health and, like, my mental wellness, right? I think the more and more people I--especially black men--that I talk to who are transitioning out of their twenties, you know, it's like--I've talked to more and more folks who are, black men, who, like, this is the time when they go to counseling, right? Like, if you haven't gone already. And I've gone at certain points in time. We did pre-martial counseling. I've done, like, personal counseling as I got ready to get married, but I haven't really ever gone to, like, see someone, like, a true therapist, right? Like, a true, like, psychiatrist. I think that there's a certain stigma around mental health, right, for black people, and I would say particularly for black men, and so it's, like, getting comfortable with talking to people and, like, really getting help and just talking through things. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, like, the road of life has all of these different bumps and potholes. You're gonna have mileage and just damage and disalignment that you just need help with just because of the reality of life and the trauma that life brings, especially in the context of white supremacy and patriarchy. So shoot... and then the last thing, y'all, I think I'm just really excited about, again, like, Living Corporate. Like, yo, we got featured on Forbes, man.Ade: Oh, my God. I just--Zach: What is it? So be honest. When you saw it, what did you--Ade: Okay, I just want to put some context. I am not--I don't scream very often.Zach: Did you scream for real?Ade: At the top of my lungs.Zach: Did you really?Ade: I really did. [Zach laughs] And here's why. Like, it genuinely is a life goal for me to make it on Forbes' 30 Under 30, so when you sent that link to me, I was like, "Surely he is just sharing a link of podcasts that we should emulate or, you know, link up with these people and get a sense of what they do, how they do it, how well they're do--" Nope, there's our name. I was like, "Holy--" I was on top of the Moon. It was a moment for me, okay, personally.Zach: I was curious. Well, 'cause I texted you and we didn't, like--'cause we didn't, like, really react in the moment. Like, I reacted. I texted you. I was happy. But you were in the middle of your work day and, like, I had some time in my day, so I was able to step away and, like, actually hit you, right? And so when you--[laughs] But you didn't, like, react, so I was like, "I wonder if she really cared about that." Like, not that you didn't care, but did it do anything for you. But for me I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, I was shocked. Ade: Absolutely. No, I need you to--I just want to, again, reiterate the fact that I don't scream on a regular basis. It's not my personality type to just be out here in these streets wildin'--at least in that way, 'cause I do be wildin'. I'ma just be honest.Zach: Right, you do. That's true.Ade: [laughs] You didn't need to agree with me. I was just--Zach: You know, you put it out there. It's on Twitter.Ade: Okay. All right, this is fine. But really, it was such an honor, and it was something that I would not in the--I mean, if we, like, rewind a year and a half or whatever--it was actually about this time two years ago. Are we two years [?]? Wait a minute.Zach: Yeah, it's been, like, two years.Ade: Holy [bleep?]Zach: Right? It's been nuts.Ade: [laughs] I really need you to understand that I'm literally just coming to the realization that Living Corporate is almost two years old. That's wild. That's so wild to me. We need sweatshirts and hoodies.Zach: We need merch, man. We need merch. We should really drop, like, little collections. Like Popeye's.Ade: We should. We should, like, go through and figure out what our favorites from our guests and from our hosts are and then, like, make some sweatshirts, 'cause I would wear my sayings. That's all I'm saying.Zach: You would wear your own sayings?Ade: Absolutely. What? Absolutely.Zach: Nah, that's the definition of a narcissist. You'd put your own quotes on clothing and walk around in them?Ade: Uh-huh, I would.Zach: Wow.Ade: I would. You know why? Because I have some fire, fire sayings. Zach: [laughs] That's crazy. You do, but it's like... you can't say that though. Like, that's crazy.Ade: What? No. 2020 is the year of big upping yourself.Zach: Wow. You know what though? I respect it, 'cause, you know what I'm saying, if no one else is gonna wear your sayings, you may as well.Ade: Exactly. Precisely. Kobe was a fan of big upping myself, and so am I.Zach: He was. That's true though. You know what? That's a good point.Ade: And the way that I do see it is, like--being a little bit more serious about the subject, 'cause I was kind of making fun of the entire concept, but sincerely, like, we preach that you have to be your own best advocate, right? And we preach that you have to kind of take stock and make sure that you are keeping records of your good deeds when you do them so that you can be able to speak to your managers, your peers and your supervisors, all of these things, but when you are an entrepreneur or you are an individual contributor or anything of the sort, you have to do the same, right? Like, you have to be too, and this was something that I had to get comfortable with. And I'm still not comfortable with it, to be frank. Like, I handed people an 8-ounce jar of my product, and they were like, "Well, how much is this?" And I'm, like, waffling around, like, "I kind of don't want to ask anybody for money for this," but it's a product, right? But being able to, like, stand on your two feet and be like, "No, this is a thing that I've done, and I'm worth the time and the investment that you're going to make in my product or in me as a person." It's all a part of being confident in all of the work that you've done. You're not asking people to buy into a single thing. You're asking them to buy into you as an idea, and if you're not willing to, you know, kind of say it with your chest, as Africans will say. [laughs] If you're not willing to say it with your chest, then who's supposed to be willing to stand behind you and say it with their chest? You see what I'm saying?Zach: Yeah, straight up. Like, you have to be willing to advocate for yourself and, like, promote yourself, because--I mean, the Internet is such a big and busy place and, like, the world is so big and busy that, like, yeah, there--and I was just having a conversation with a guest that I will not reveal yet because I like guests being a surprise week-to-week, but a guest I was having a conversation with, we were talking about networking and how, like, the world is connected, but it's connected via a series of, like, closed loops. So it's not like you can just, like--the world is connected, but you still have to, like, be in certain circles for things to even get started, right? And so, like, the idea of like, "Oh, I'ma just do this thing over here in this corner, and then if it's good it will eventually get seen." It's like that's not really true. Like, you have to really actively promote whatever it is that you got going on. Like, period. That's just the way it is. But yeah, to your earlier point about, you know, it being two years and Living Corporate being around almost two years, right? So, like, April will make two years--or is it June? Golly, I can't remember. Anyway, some time--Ade: I think it was April, but we definitely had, like, our inaugural Skype or, what was it, Google chat in February.Zach: There it is. You're right, we did. We did have our inaugural Google chat in February just to talk about things, and then, you know, we kicked everything off a couple months later, but it's crazy 'cause, like--and shout-out to Dr. Gassam, who wrote the piece for us, the article for us, and shouted us out and, like, you know, put us up as #1. I don't know what those little numbers mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, 'cause I really--what I was really shocked about was everybody else on that list, everybody on that list are huge. Like, shout-out to Side Hustle Pro. Shout-out to Code Switch, dawg. Shout-out to Myleik. I was like, "Yo, we're up here with Code Switch? Myleik?"Ade: Code Switch.Zach: Code Switch! And yo, shout-out to NPR and Code Switch, because I remember when we first started thinking about, like, Living Corporate, like, as a podcast, we were like, "What are the ones that really inspire us?" And me and at least one other person was like, "Code Switch," 'cause, like, the format is so fire. Like, shout-out to y'all, man. So, like, even if anybody--for anybody to think about us in the same vein as them, like, I feel like that's a win on its own, 'cause that lets me know--that affirms me that, like, we're achieving [against?] the vision that we had initially set out, but it's crazy 'cause there's been, like, a lot of ups and downs and, like, a lot of stuff going on, but, you know, [Paul Rudd look at us sfx, Ade laughs].Ade: I'm just over here, like, giddy and over the Moon. Yeah, no, and it's funny because you're not the only person who sent me that link, and that's, like, the other thing that [?].Zach: Oh, you didn't tell me that.Ade: No, like, sincerely, you weren't the only one that sent me that link. My friend sent me that link, and I actually encountered someone--shout-out to you, you know who you are--who I literally had just, like, been talking to him. He's transitioning into tech. I just, like, try to make sure I'm giving people advice and help and checking in with people that I know are making the same transition, and I reached out to him, and he was like, "Wait, are you Ade from Living Corporate?" Zach: What?Ade: 'Cause he literally met me from an entirely separate context. And so to be able to encounter someone who, you know, knows of us and knows me in my best light, not, you know--clears throat--anyway. Zach: Dawg, I'ma tell you something. One day--one day, y'all... hey, listen, y'all. Some of y'all are, like, listening to this with a confused face. Trust me, I'm confused too, but one day we're gonna come on this podcast and we're gonna have a real conversation about the crazy life that Ade lives, 'cause why would you come on here and say, "Yeah, this Forbes article, and someone who knew me, and not in my best--" And then this awkward pause. I hear you audibly gulp in the mic. Like, what? [laughs] Y'all, y'all understand the type of work--like, y'all understand the team I have, right? Like, that's crazy. Y'all, don't treat me like--yeah, now y'all know what I'm doing with. What kind of weirdness is that? Go ahead. This person who hasn't seen you at your best and sent you the Forbes link. What?Ade: [sighs] I'ma just move forward. [Zach laughs] No, no, no.Zach: I wonder, is Ade the Mal of this podcast? 'Cause I'm certainly Joe Budden. I realize that. But Ade might--Ade might be the Mal. She might be the Mal of this podcast. She's, like, a little too cool to pod, but then she'll say [?] things.Ade: I demand we move forward. [both laugh]Zach: Goodness, gracious. Go ahead. Keep going.Ade: Anyway, so I'm just really grateful for, you know, where we are, and--first of all I want to give Zach and our writing team and our production team and our social team all the props, like, every single prop that exists, because you have been put in blood, sweat, tears, money, effort, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum into this, and it shows in the quality of our partners, our work, our podcast, our newsletters. Like, everything. Like, you've been really intentional about the direction that Living Corporate would take, and I really respect that, and you are by far one of the most aggressive--but you're not gonna beat me up though--type energies [?].Zach: [laughs] It's true though. It's true. [both laughing]Ade: And Living Corporate has enjoyed that energy, enjoyed the fruits of that energy.Zach: I do have "but you're not gonna beat me up though" type energy, and I've come to peace with that. It's true.Ade: It's my favorite thing about you, and also, like, simultaneously your worst quality when you turn it on me, [both laugh] but--[to this day sfx]Zach: [laughing] Oh, my gosh. It's true. But this is the thing, you gotta have "you ain't gonna beat me up though" energy, because boy, the world will beat you up, boy. The world out here tryna come--it coming for your neck, dude. I mean, every day I'm over here like [Cardi B blatblat sfx] with these haters, man. I'm trying to, like, stay alive out here. I gotta fight every day. Every day. All my life, literally trying to fight and then at the same time avoid--[Law and Order sfx]--like, at the same time. [both laugh] I be so aggravated, man. Do you know the fine line you have to walk as a black man? Man, I'm telling you, being black is so exhausting. Being black and conscious, like--James Baldwin, man. He was not lying, dawg. Not lying at all, because you are in a rage all of the time, and you're over here trying to, like, stand up and just speak to the fact that you're worth something. Listen... eugh. You're over here trying to literally raise your voice loud enough to be heard and respected, but not too loud, right?Ade: 'Cause [?], and here y'all come.Zach: Here y'all come, without at the same time going to jail. So it's, like, this fine line that you have to walk. It's just nuts. Anyway, nah, I appreciate that, Ade. And, you know, I appreciate you as well. You know, you're here. The biggest--Ade: Finally.Zach: Finally, that's true. But look, you was gone for a little minute, but you back in town. You know? It's okay. I think the biggest thing--what do they say, "the biggest ability is availability?" It's corny. It's kind of a coach's--coaches say that, but it's a true statement. Like, just be present, you know? I know one thing, and shout-out to Rod from The Black Guy Who Tips and Karen, his lovely co-host and partner, but one of the things he said, like, from the jump--like, he jumped on our podcast early. He was like, "Yo, being consistent--" He's like, "'Cause people come and leave, like, jump on these podcasts and leave all of the time." He's like, "So having some longevity is hard over time," and if it wasn't for our team - Aaron, Sheneisha, Amy, Latesha, Tristan... like, we have a great, great team, and we put out a lot of content. Like, we're posting three episodes a week every single week, and, like, that doesn't happen without a huge team--or, I'm sorry, relatively huge and a consistently dedicated team. So, like, really proud of them, really proud of, like, just what we've been able to do, and just, like, really thankful for Dr. Gassam, 'cause, like, there's plenty of other platforms that are trying to make content. I really still stay that, like, it's us, Trill MBA and, like... that's kind of it right now that's out here really talking about other in majority-white spaces. Anyway, so look, it's Black History Month. Have you seen any--I'm just gonna ask the question. I don't know why I'm trying to, like, play it safe. Have you been on a job where your employer has annoyed you by how they've handled Black History Month?Ade: Let me count the ways. I--[laughs] Whoo, let me take a breath. All right. I have been aggravated by several firms, actually, simply because--Zach: [laughs] Yes, shout-out "firms." Consulting, we're talking about y'all. [laughs]Ade: Looking right at you, friends. Zach: Looking right at y'all, professional services. Yes. [laughing]Ade: No, I just--there's nothing I hate more than double-talk, and by that I mean firms, corporations, whatever it is that y'all would like to call yourselves--active participants in capitalism--who pay lip service, either through, like, their mission statements, their values, their creed, or even their stated employee resource groups that they care about diversity and somehow consistently fail to make a statement or support or do anything of value, particularly during Black History Month. I noticed this during my employment at a firm I will not name in the past where, you know, July 4th came around, Veteran's Day came around. You know, all of those things were celebrated or commemorated by words from the leadership of the firm going out, but when Black History Month came and went there was nary a bleep, and it was so noticeable because, you know, the firm had something to say on MLK Day, but, you know, when ostensibly there would be time for--and to their credit, the employee resource group put on one... ONE program for the entire month of February. I understand that, you know, funding is a thing. It's difficult to organize sometimes around different people's schedules, but, you know, one event over the course of the entire Black History Month? I cannot tell you how deeply bothersome I found that, simply because you have a body of people who are, whether they consciously or not notice these things, are essentially being utilized as resources by this firm. I mean, you are essentially selling our time to all of these contracts, you're making millions off of us, and you can't take the time during Black History Month to care about Black History, but you can, on July 4th, take time to commemorate these things? Or you can during Veteran's Day or Memorial Day or Labor Day and all of these other things. So it feels like a very intentional slight, because, I mean, I know that your calendar functions the same way that my calendar does, and I know that your Google functions the same way that my Google functions, so it's not like you're missing out on the reminders that these things exist. So when there's an intentional exclusion, or what feels like an intentional exclusion, of black people from, you know, your commemorative messages, it's like, "Heard you. We see where your priorities are." And an even further extension of that logic is that when--you know, during these programming sessions there are no, like, leadership in the room to attend these programs or there's no support, you know? People have to come out of pocket for things, to pay for things. It just feels very ugly. I'ma use that word, ugly. Dusty. Musty.Zach: Raggly.Ade: Raggedy.Zach: And there's a difference now, and this is where--so, you know, you and I, I love the diversity just in our pairing, right? But, like, you know, you're an East Coast black and I'm a Southern black, right?Ade: Precisely.Zach: It's interesting, 'cause you said raggedy, and see, what I said was raggly.Ade: Raggley, mm-hmm.Zach: Raggly. Not raggley, raggly. Now, look, I want--'cause every now and then I teach--and if you're listening to this you know who you are, but for the white folks that I trust, the Buckys out there, the allies, or the aspirational allies, that I trust, every now and then I'll teach y'all a phrase called "fifty-'leven," right? You know who you are. If you're listening to this and you actually, you know, rock with me and you listen to this, I've taught you this. [both laughing] I've taught you all these phrases, and this is another one for y'all to take in. So look, it's not raggedy, nor is it raggley. It's raggly. It's two syllables, and that is often times a descriptor for how companies manage Black History Month.Ade: I will make an amendment to that statement, 'cause I don't necessarily agree. There are, uh, regional differences to dialects, you see. [Zach laughing] So while Zach is correct for his particular region of the Souf--notice I said Souf--Zach: That's true. Souf. That's true. That's fair, 'cause Southern is--'cause we live in America. Southern is a huge region. That's true. That's fair.Ade: Take his advice lightly, you know? Do with that what you will. Zach: [laughs] Be careful.Ade: And, uh, if you get run up on, please don't quote us.Zach: Don't quote me.Ade: 'Cause we will not be popping up [?].Zach: Uh-uh, uh-uh. Don't. And honestly, maybe don't say fifty-'leven around everybody. They'll be like, "Who taught you that?" And don't tell 'em it was me. [laughs] Nah, but no, I'm right there with you when it comes to, like--I've been in situations where, you know, either we don't celebrate Black History Month at all, we don't recognize it in any way, or employee resource groups will get, like, the black people to huddle together and they'll go do something, right? It's like, "Um..." Black history is American history. This should be something company-wide. And I'm not saying we gotta do something every single day, but can we do at least one thing? Can we recognize some of the black pioneers in our own firm, in our own companies? Like, we have our own historical marks that we've made, but I think--I don't know. It's tough, it's tough because--and honestly, like, even I say this, like, I get--like, I'm hearing... 'cause there's some executive leaders and folks who listen to Living Corporate, right? And they listen to it for different points of insight or whatever, and so there's a part of me who--and they're like, "Well, dang, I can't even win for losing," 'cause, like, the other part of me is gonna say, "And even if you are doing something for Black History Month, what are you doing for the rest of the year?" Right? 'Cause it can just be, like, an acknowledgement. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing to, like, actually advance having a more equitable and inclusive culture that drives belonging in your place of work? But I do think, like, at just the--I mean, I'm talking, like, floor level, if we could just start with some acknowledgement, you know? Like, you don't have to always quote Martin Luther King. You could actually, like, integrate and be intersectional with your Black History Month if you wanted. [Ade laughs] You can! Like, you can actually, like, quote trans rights, trans activists who happen to be black, and you can tie that in with, like, your LGBTQ ERGs. You could quote, like, Afro-Latinx civil rights activists and, like, historical people, and, like, integrate them. Like, there's all types of ways. You know there's ways that you can actually--you could use Black History Month to drive intersectional conversations and activities for your whole firm, 'cause black people are not just black. Black people are black and gay, black and Latinx. They're black and straight. They're black and female. They're black and disabled. Like, it could actually be something that could be--you know, you could use Black History Month similarly to how you use black and brown people anyway, which is really kind of like just the glue that holds everybody together. You could just use us if you want. You could use the month how you use black and brown people. Like, let me just be super cynical, right? You could actually--like, from a programming perspective, from, like, a networking and engagement perspective, from, like, even leveraging--like, getting more thought leadership, like, you could do all types of things with that month. You have a whole month, and this month you have a whole extra day. So it's like--Ade: No excuses.Zach: No excuses, right? Like, you could do something. And, like, if you need any help with ideas, then, I mean, you could talk to your own leadership. You could talk to--I don't know. There's just so much out there now. There's just so much--maybe we just need to drop an article on ideas for your Black History Month. Maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I don't--Ade: You know what? That's a good idea.Zach: I mean, maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I'm over here just thinking about it more and more. It's like, "I don't know if I've been a part of any company that I have walked away and felt like, "Wow, I really feel seen this Black History Month." I don't think that's ever happened to me. In fact, I remember last year I tried to quote a--like, I was on a project and there was a quote board, okay? So you put a little quote up there, and I was like, "Oh, it's Black History Month," and I tried to quote--I think I quoted, like, Oprah Winfrey or something like that, and, like, they literally erased it and put up some white man's quote and they were like, "This is more relevant." I said, "But I thought it was a quote board." Ade: Right?Zach: Like, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean it's more relev--okay... and again, that's where I had to make a choice between, like, okay, am I about to die on this hill? Am I gonna go to jail? Like, what am I gonna do? 'Cause, like, I just--I don't--nope. So I had to make a decision, but anyway. So okay, what else do we have going on? So what's the name of the company though? The body butter company. I'm jumping all around now. What's--'cause we didn't talk about that before.Ade: [laughs] Right. So my company is called Solari, S-O-L-A-R-I. It is a portmanteau of my name, or a part of my name, and my mom's name. And on Instagram and on Twitter I'm pretty sure our handle is @SolariBody, so it's S-O-L-A-R-I-B-O-D-Y. And yeah, I'm really excited. I'm kind of blushing right now. [laughs] I'm really excited about just getting started and just being able to expand my reach. So I've been doing a lot of kind of, like, self-care stuff for a very long time, like making my own body butters and making my own, like, lip balm, conditioner, and all these other things--and scrubs--and just the idea of being able to... and this is another thing that happened, but I'll finish my sentence. Just the idea of being able to utilize all of the things that I put into practice because I want to take care of myself and take better care of myself. So, for example, I would, like, make my own hair oils, but when I realized that other people wanted these things and don't necessarily want to go through the process of experimentation to figure out all of the ideal things--and I've already been doing these things for over a decade--I was just kind of like, "You know what? I'm gonna do this, and it's gonna be fun," and the reception has been fantastic.Zach: Well, I'm really proud of you. I'm happy for you, you know? I think--you talked about this a little bit on the last, when we did our season kickoff episode, but it's easy to, like, get in your own way and to like, you know what I'm saying, just let anxieties and different challenges, like, just hamper you or kind of put you in a stalemate, but it's really exciting, like to see you continue forward and build something. Ade: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome. Man, so, you know, my cadence as I was pausing there, it reminded me of my own Barack Obama impression that I do at the house for fun with Candis just to get on her nerves, 'cause I was almost like... [impersonating Barack] "Uh, Ade, it is, uh... impressive how you have taken the time," you know what I mean? I almost--and then I go into, [continuing] "Every day, there are Americans who get up, they have their challenges--" [Ade sighs, Zach laughs] "If there was any doubt, uh, that you could not do what it is that you're doing today, uh, you have nowhere else to look but in the mirror. Uh, you get up. You put that butter on your dry skin. Uh, you hydrate yourself, and you face a world that is not ready for someone like you."Ade: I'm about to hang up on you, sir. [both laugh] I am so done.Zach: [laughs] Goodness, gracious. So all right, y'all. Well, look, this was just a fun episode, you know, letting you know what we've got going on. Thank you so much. Shout-out to everyone who listens to this podcast. Shout-out to--shoot, I ain't gonna get into all the shout-outs, but just shout-out to y'all. Make sure that you share this with your people. Continue to share it. The numbers are showing that y'all are sharing it, and I look at our stats every single day 'cause that's just kind of the person I am, the obsessive person that I am, but [laughs] we're really appreciative. And then, shoot, I guess we'll see y'all next time. Make sure you follow--Ade: Wait, one last thing before we go. We kind of vaguely talked about it, but I do want to insert a moment of silence here for Kobe Bryant and his daughter and all of the passengers of the helicopter that went down. We actually weren't able to get on this podcast to discuss it because we were just so emotional. I tried, and it's about 7 minutes worth of just sobs and sniffles on that, but I think this is a pretty good time to do it. So if everyone listening could just join us in a moment of silence. [a moment of silence] Thank you. Zach: Nah, for sure. Yeah, we could talk about--we're gonna have to have an episode about trauma and, like, the ways that trauma impacts black and brown people at work every day, and how we're still expected to just, like, show up and perform two or three times better than our counterparts just so that we can keep our jobs. So... but yeah.Ade: And I just also actually--I think we should have a black heroes episode.Zach: I love that.Ade: I think that in an episode coming up soon we're gonna discuss, you know, some of our heroes, and Kobe's one of mine. People who have just shown you how to get through life with dignity and with grit, and that's a term that I didn't used to use so frequently and so intensely until now. But again, it's a topic that we'll be covering later, but suffice to say that was a shock to my system, and I didn't expect that it would be so shocking. I didn't expect just how strongly I would react, and I suspect that so many others found themselves reeling in the aftermath of that news. Our prayers and our thoughts of those affected. And another topic I think we should also explore is, you know, how to disconnect in times of trauma and to kind of reassess and to find your balance in those times as well. That's it for me.Zach: Nah, I love that, and I super agree. And y'all, on that super, you know, emotional, heavy note, we're gonna catch y'all next time, okay?Ade: For sure.Zach: Now, look, you make sure you check us out. We're @LivingCorporate on Instagram, @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. We have all the different domains. One day, man, we're gonna get that livingcorporate.com domain, man. Right now we have all the livingcorporate dot everything but com, and then we got living-corporate.com, but shoot, until next time. This has been Zach.Ade: This is Ade.Zach: Peace, y'all.Ade: Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with storyteller and strategist Deidre Wright about effectively building a leadership profile. Deidre shares what her leadership journey is looking like so far and talks about how staying true to her values helped her become the leader she is today. She also offers her thoughts about what some black and brown folks are doing that could be hindering them in their leadership development journey.Connect with Deidre on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Instagram!Check out her website!Visit Living-Corporate.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, you know what we do, okay? We come on the show and we have real talk about real things. These real things are actually fairly benign on their face, right? But we take these fairly real topics, and they're real, or rather we make them real, 'cause we're centering black and brown experiences. So today we're talking about building a leadership profile. Now, in building a leadership profile--you know what? I'm not even gonna do that. I'm just gonna go ahead and get into it with our guest, Deidre Wright.Deidre: Yes, that's right. [laughs] Hi.Zach: All right, come on now. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Deidre: [laughing] I'm good, Zach. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I've lived a corporate life for most of my career, so it's exciting to talk to you.Zach: No, thank you very much. I'm excited to have you on the show. And see, you know what I did is--those are bars, Deidre. So I said, "Deidre Wright," and you said, "That's right." See, I knew--Deidre: [laughs]Zach: Right? So I'm like--anyway, it's wordplay is all I'm saying. Okay, so for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Deidre: Yeah. So everyone, I'm Deidre Wright. I'm a Bay Area native, and I call myself a storyteller and a strategist because I worked across industries, but mostly what I do is empower clients to effectively tell their stories and create strategies, execute goals, and so I say this because I worked in public health, marketing, and risk management, and with all of those fields I can kind of used that skill set and my--that's my passion. So I graduated from Spelman College with a sociology and anthropology degree with the goal to make the world a better place. Graduated during the recession. It was a little challenging, but I was able to help kind of do that. And so I worked for Kaiser Permanente in public health research, working on a study, learning why girls start childhood puberty earlier. So why puberty is starting earlier and long-term [who?] gets breast cancer, and communicating findings with the public, and then I transitioned to marketing because I found that without a clear call to action people don't really make changes. So I was doing internal marketing for McKesson, helping employees sell their services, and then I landed on insurance, really at first advising [?] companies on their risk management and how to improve that for their companies and later now be, you know, an award-winning director of diversity and inclusion helping companies in insurance promote and advance diversity and inclusion.Zach: You know what? You just had so many just Flex bomb moments in there. First of all, you talked about the fact that you graduated from Spelman. Shout-out to all the Spelmanites, the Spelman Women. Deidre: Woo-woo!Zach: Come on, now. Don't--like, let's not play. [ow sfx] Okay? We gotta shout y'all out. [laughs] And then you had some big names in there. McKesson, Kaiser Permanente. That's incredible. So, you know, you talked about--you're talking a little about just kind of your journey. Again, you named some huge brands in there. I'm looking at your profile, and I'm just gonna look at, like, just the last year and a half, okay? So 2018 you got the NAAIA Emerging Leaders co-chair, your 2018 Dive In Festival San Francisco co-chair, and then you were the 2018 Water Street Club Insurance Rising Star and then the 2019 Insurance Careers Month Emerging Leader. Okay? And that's just, again, the last year and change, but it's relevant because like I said, today we're talking about building your leadership profile. I have a theory, right? And I could be--I could be crazy, 'cause I'm--I'm just looking at the field, Deidre. I don't--you know, I'm not a sociologist or any type of scientist. I'm just kind of looking at the space, right? And I have a theory that black and brown folks in corporate America spend a lot of time trying to make sure that we're just strong individual contributors because, you know, we're conditioned and taught to just do that and for a lot of us, like, the first generation of our families being in corporate America, right? But I believe as time continues forward and the millennial workforce increases and, like, its representation increases within the workplace and we age up in the workplace that there's gonna be a continued demand and opportunity for us to continue to really take on leadership positions. So can you talk a little bit about your journey in becoming a leader and, like, what has that looked like for you?Deidre: Yes, mm-hmm. And I'll have to have a little bit more Flex bomb. So, like I said, I work in the risk management and insurance field, but using my platform and my leader standpoint I've done a lot of fun things, including speaking at events where Barack Obama, Colin Powell, and America [Ferrera?] were on the line-up. Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa--Deidre: Yeah. [laughs, record scratch sfx]Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let me just pause you so I can do this. [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, continue.Deidre: Thank you. Then having viral LinkedIn, you know, posts, where I have one that has 23,000 views and the other one has 37,000 views, and I say this because no matter what industry or skill set, you can be a leader and use your influence to call attention to the cause that you care about. So what's my leadership journey looking like? I guess no matter what I always focus on setting goals, investing in myself, and taking strategic risks. And, you know, you heard my kind of bio. I've done a lot of different things in different fields, but I always stay true to my values, which was, you know, being strategic and storytelling. And so I say that because what happened was I was, like I said, a contractor for McKesson, and so my contract ended and I had my son the month afterwards. So my vision was take a couple months off, go back to McKesson, do my thing, but they had laid off a bunch of marketing people so I had no job to go back to, and that's when I was like, "Okay, I have a baby. I need to make money. Let me figure this out," and so that's when I kind of got back to my values and my goals, and I was like, "Okay, let me check out insurance and risk management--my mom was in the field, she is doing great--and really think, like, what do I want out of a career and start attacking that." So I started with informational interviews with leaders in the space, because I want to say, like, if you have the secret sauce, I want that recipe, and figuring that out for me. And then taking strategic risks to start and break in myself in the industry of taking jobs, and then once I got the position making the position my own and being a thought leader. The key thing to being a leader I would say that everyone is--figure out your craft and promote it on different channels to help people, whether it's, like, Living Corporate, you know, having this experience and teach people skills, but mostly make strategic moves to always figure out how to promote your expertise and level up by seeing or asking, "What experience in my career is gonna give me the highest ROI for career time?" So if I'm spending three years of my time on this project or 30 minutes speaking on a stage, what is the ROI for this? And that's kind of helped me navigate these different changes in marketing to, you know, insurance, being a broker, from a broker to diversity and inclusion. Having those key processes of assessing goals, being strategic, and, you know, seeing what's worth my time or not.Zach: Let's take a step back though, right? So everything you're saying, 100%. I get it. It makes sense to me. But what would you say to the person who's like, "Look, I don't really know what my focus or passion is. I'm just here. I'm just happy to be here." Like, what advice would you give to that person?Deidre: I would tell them to shift their mindset. Just being happy to be here is--I mean, what are you living a life of, scarcity or abundance? Like, yes, I understand--like I told you, I had a baby and no money. I was thinking like, "Dang," but I had to--I don't know if it was just my maternal instincts or just my hustle, I mean, I was like, "I've got to figure out how to make this work," and so I would just say level up your mindset and think about "Okay, if I'm here, yeah, I'm happy for the situation, but what do I want to do with it? Where do I want to be in three years? How much money do I want to make then? What kind of impact do I want to leave on this platform?" For example, when I was a broker, I always wanted to empower my clients and, like--let me be clear on what I mean by risk management. My clients were Airbnb and Lyft and Starbucks and UPS. Like, big, you know, global clients, and I say that because just like you and me, we want to protect ourselves, [and] we also want to reach goals. And so I would say manage your career like you're managing your risk in yourself and think about, "Okay, if I invest X amount of time in this place, what's the return gonna be for me in reaching my goals?" So I guess I would just say change your mindset to just be more than just happy to be there. Like, think "How am I gonna make this work to be happy and earn my worth?"Zach: I love that. You're absolutely right. You know, it's scary though, and I say this as someone who--I'm trying to put myself in, like, the other person's shoes, 'cause you and I, we vibe on that level because we both are like, "Look, I gotta go get it." I don't have any kids yet, but--[both laugh]--but I get it, right? I am married. It's like, "Okay, look, I gotta--" Like, this can't stop. Like, I gotta keep going, right? At the same time, I ask myself, "Okay, so for the folks who are not necessarily naturally as industrious," right, like, what are some of the, like, just kind of starting steps? And I hear you, right? What I'm hearing is it's about identifying "Okay, what do I want the next 18 months to look like? What do I want the next three years to look like?" And then, like, thinking with the end in mind, then kind of working backwards from there and then asking yourself and kind of asking perhaps a scary question of "Okay, well, then is what I'm doing getting me to that point? Yes or no?"Deidre: Mm-hmm.Zach: Okay. No, that's great. So, you know, it's interesting, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned in becoming a leader? And then if I could kind of take a step, like, a little bit below that, as you've been continuing to grow and navigate these spaces, what are things that you see, you know, our black and brown folks doing out there that can hinder them in their leadership development journey?Deidre: Yes. What I learned as a leader--which, it's funny, you know? It's probably like you, Zach. It's like you just do your job and you do it well, and I say that because I consider myself, like, a mentor or a helper, and it's great that I'm a leader, and I'll say that. You know, I take that role, but I just think ultimately it's figuring out what your purpose is and how you can live to that higher calling, but, you know, the real thing is 1. invest in yourself, whether that is taking the time to do the work--for example, like, when I was a broker, I would spend time, hours, reading insurance policies. Now, I don't know, Zach, if that's what you do for fun, but most people don't do that. But I was taking the time so I knew what the heck I was talking about, and I had that confidence in front of my client when I am the only millennial, only black person, only woman in the room. And so you've gotta take time to invest yourself. You know, I had an executive coach who was helping me, you know, through the program and to really figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do and when I was investing that time. Going to conferences, meeting people, networking. You have to do these things if you want to get far, and for us, you know, black and brown people, two things I would kind of say is 1. be strategic and understand no one is gonna invest time in you as much as you. So if you're waiting for your company to tap you on the shoulder saying, "I know you're gonna be a leader," yeah, that might happen passively, but only you can really give all of your effort into doing that. And then two, part of my job is that I organize events and plan them for the industry to I guess really just bond people and give them tools and resources for D&I through events and stuff. So for example, I'm planning a national diversity and inclusion conference that's coming up, and I say that because I look for speakers. I want speakers. I also judge a national woman in insurance award, [?], and so I assess and judge women leaders and their profiles to see who are worthy of these awards. Now, rarely do I see at our events people volunteering who are people of color or whoever to be speakers at events from a technical standpoint, you know? And rarely do I see people nominate themselves for awards. So the biggest thing is advocate for yourself and put yourself out there, because if you don't do that, then who will? So I think that's the biggest missed opportunity. Working hard's not enough. You've got to really advocate and promote your brand, because people want to help you. People want diverse leaders more than ever. I will tell you right now. Companies are investing in diversity and inclusion, and they want leaders. We just had a diversity survey, my company Business Insurance, studying diversity in our industry. We had over 800 people do it, and one fo the questions were what is the biggest barrier to increasing diversity in our industry, and for the second time around it was "we can't find minorities with the right skill set." And I don't necessarily believe that is my case. I just think it's perception. If people don't perceive there are leaders there, then they're not gonna tap you in for opportunities. So speak out and promote yourself to be that leader they see. Zach: No, 100%, and let me double-click on one thing you just said. I'm not gonna lie to you. What a huge pet peeve is, like, the whole "we don't have the pipeline, we don't see [them]." Like, so much of that is, like... if you just open your eyes, like, in today's era, right? So some of it is perception, how you present yourself, and there's a certain level of accountability that we have to take in terms of how we show up. At the same time--and I don't want to speak to insurance, 'cause that is a space that I'm not wholly familiar with, but I will speak to, like, technology, right? So okay, like, Facebook and other, like, larger technology firms will say, "Well, we have this diversity problem because we don't really have the pipeline," but the reality is there are tons of pockets of people, like Black Girls Who Code, Black Code Collective. There's all types of, like, groups out there and pockets, and there's black folks at these PWIs and HBCUs. There's organizations out there that do have the talent. I think the challenge is that what I'm not seeing, like, across the board is, like, a truly, like, intersectional and inclusive talent sourcing strategy when it comes to actually identifying that talent and then making sure that those folks are actually represented in terms of what does it look like for you to go out to those schools or engage these different groups or partner with these various organizations. Like, if you look in the same places for this diverse talent, then yeah, you may not find it, but if you actually just kind of broaden your scope a bit you may actually find the folks you're looking for, you know?Deidre: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I truly believe it, and that's one of the things I help, you know, my clients with is figure out where do you find this diverse talent. And diversity means so many different things to so many different people, and I know all industries are different, but I will say for us it's typically--they go to the same colleges because they typically want someone with a risk management degree. Risk management degrees are very--you know, they're not that often you find them. There's only a certain amount of schools, and those schools are not necessarily diverse. And mind you, the majority of people that come into our industry don't have interest in insurance or a risk management background. Like, I had sociology, right? But I did my job really well. So I'm like, knowing the statistics that the majority of people come in without this, I'm like, "Why would you narrow the focus?" So I think the first thing is find transferrable skills, companies, you know, and then people, be open to other industries besides your own that could be promising, because insurance is a couple trillion dollar industry. There's really a lot of interesting things going on right now. There's InsureTech, which is infusing technology with insurance. There's all these new risks out there, like with Bitcoin, and, you know, you have, you know, a shared economy and all kinds of fun stuff. So it's a lot of great things. So whether you're a company, find people with transferrable skills. Go to professional organizations, whether it is, like, you know, Ascent, Prospanica, National Black [?], and find people with the skill sets who obviously are leaders in their space but might not be leaders in your space. Also, look and see where else people are at, because--I don't know, maybe technology is a better judge [?] of this, but I'm like, "Are companies really leveraging social media and new forms of communication to find people?" A lot of times no, so that's what you gotta do.Zach: No, straight up. In fact, let me just go ahead and [straight up sfx, both laugh]. Yeah, I agree. Straight up. Man, that's a wonderful soundbite. So you talk a lot about inclusion and diversity within the context of leadership, and these are my questions, right? Can you 1. explain why I&D is important to you and then practical ways you reinforce and you would encourage other leaders to reinforce inclusive behaviors?Deidre: Yes. Why does it matter to me? Straight up I will just say it's because [both laughing] I was working in the industry, and my [?] a generation, so I quote-unquote belong here. We're very--I would say the industry typically is a lot of second-generation or multi-generation people in the industry, but I didn't actually feel like I belonged because, like I said, I didn't really see many people who looked like me. So just having that self-awareness, I'm like--and I was complaining, and someone was like, "Deidre, stop complaining." Like, "Do something." I got really involved in diversity and inclusion work, whether it was from volunteering or being part of organizations. So that was kind of--I had skin in the game, and I had to be the change I wanted to see, and I spoke at a lot of events about that. That's actually how I got my job, because I was on stage speaking at this event for my current company, and the CEO saw me and was like, "Deidre, I like your ideas," and that's why I promote people. If you have great ideas and solutions, go and speak and do that so you can find the right opportunities to be poached for those opportunities. But what are practical and tactical ways to be more inclusive? I would say diversify your network to the point you said of poaching talent or finding talent, but also who you mentor and who mentors you. So think about this. Yes, it is really important to have a person of color as your mentor in this space, but also it's good to have people who don't look like you. I try to, as much as possible, find mentors or colleagues who have different backgrounds, whether it's from they were in the military or they're male or they're white or whatever, but just different people. They give me perspective on things, and I find that very, very helpful, and also feedback on what they're receiving from me and my brand. Also I would say as a leader, if you're a manager or just anybody on a team, learn people's learning styles and how they communicate and bring out the best in them, because not everyone's extroverted, so they're not always gonna communicate how they feel, but maybe they're better in smaller groups or maybe they're great with projects and running with things, but don't assume that your way of communicating and doing things are the best. But I would just ask people, like, "Hey, what's the best to bring out your best so that we can get your A game at the office and that we can make sure you're satisfied?" And then lastly is speak up and speak out. If you're in a place of privilege in any aspect, I would address things, whether at a meeting and a woman's trying to talk and you're a man and someone's interrupting her--call that out, you know? Like, "Hey," you know, "I think Sheena wants to talk," or if you're a person in corporate--like, for me it's like, "Hey, I've been getting a lot of opportunities. How do I make sure I teach other women of color, people who are underrepresented, how to get speaking engagements so that they can have--I can see more diversity on this stage when I'm at events and not be the only one?" So I would just say speak out, diversify your network, and learn people's learning styles.Zach: I love that. And you're absolutely right, like, in terms of diversifying your network. So what I've learned--what I've been learning in my career is to have--as a black man--to have some white men in my network, right? And, like, I love it because--so I'm not trying to brag on myself. I'm just saying I really do like, enjoy, building authentic relationships, and I'm not gonna put--I'm not gonna make the block too hot for my friend so I'm not gonna drop his name, but I have a very good friend. He's a dear friend of mine, and we met at work. White guy, and, you know, a fairly conservative background, and I would just say, like, across the board, like, fairly conservative white man, and at the same time he and I met because he saw that I was being treated inequitably on a project, and he advocated for me, and that's how we became friends, and we've been friends for years now through that. But what's interesting is as I kind of talk to him about challenges I'm having or, like, "Man, I don't know how I would handle this," and I'm thinking about, like, all of these fairly, like, referential ways to do something or just, I don't know, kind of--like I'm choosing certain binaries because of--I don't want to say classically conditioned, but the way that I've been raised, I just think "Well, this is the way to do things." He's coming at it from, like, a different perspective. He's coming at it from a perspective of a privileged white man. So he's like, "Well, Zach, you don't have to do that. Just do this," and it's like, "Oh, my gosh. I would never even think to try that," right? And so it's, like, opening your eyes a bit. Something else you said now. I know you talked about, like, in meetings, right, when you said, like, if there's a woman talking, you as a man saying, "Hey, you know, I think she has something to say." Like, "Please, if you could give it a listen." I would also challenge that, if you're a white woman in those positions and you have, like, a black man or a [?] of color, use that privilege too, Cassandra. Becky. Charlotte. You know, just help us out, please, because we need it as well. I think there's some intersectionality that should be considered--Karen. There's another name. I was just trying to think of some other names. Anyway, so as we continue forward, right, and we talk a little bit about, like, relationships and networking, can we talk about, like, coalition building? You kind of alluded to it already, but its role in developing a leadership profile. So you talked about building this network, but, like, what does it look like for you historically to build mutually beneficial relationships? And do you have any examples of when those relationships have come into play to benefit you?Deidre: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say I always wanted to make things mutually beneficial. I just come from a standpoint--I don't like moochers, and I don't want to be a moocher. I just--I just think that it's kind of tacky, honestly.Zach: It is tacky.Deidre: It just turns me off, and it's bad for my brain to be like, "She's always asking for something but not returning it." So I've always kind of been that way. I will say my trick is--and it's not even a trick, it's really just what I do--I always end a conversation, meeting or whatever, asking people how can I be of service to them, because 1. it helps me know, like, how I can actually help them, and 2. it makes me think of who in my network can also help them. So I've connected a lot of people for business opportunities, job opportunities, just personal opportunities through having this network. "Oh, you want A? I know someone over there who can connect you with that," or "You want this," and so I would just say ask the question. It doesn't cost you a thing, but you might make an impact in how--it's always come back to help me. Like, I've never had a situation where it hasn't. 1. Either I made a new friend or had goodwill or 2. people reached out to me--like, I get a lot of referrals for business, whether it's for my job or for speaking opportunities or just leadership opportunities. I got an award for I guess being myself and being helpful to people and always leveling them up. I find that I'm stronger when I have a stronger circle around me, so I'm always trying to find who those people are, so I build it by--[coin sfx, Deidre laughs]--by, you know, being out there and publicly speaking. A lot of people I meet through Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, you know, just the interwebs, because I put myself out there or I comment on what they're saying because it's compelling to me. And so there's different ways to have mutually beneficial relationships. I just think 1. you gotta be open to them, 2. you actually gotta follow up and do what you say you're gonna do, but when it comes to--like, I come from an abundance mindset. I don't ever think that it can't be more than one leader. It can't be more than one of us. So I think we all have to get out of the mindset of that "I can't help somebody else because I lose something." [and i oop sfx] You only have something to gain by helping somebody else out.Zach: Come on, now. I 100% agree. And you know what? And that's another point--you're absolutely right, like, about following up. Look, [both laugh] people send--Deidre: You know.Zach: I do know. Listen, look, I look at my little emails, and thank God--you know what? This is not an ad. Shout-out to y'all, Gmail, 'cause y'all do the whole thing. "You received this three days ago. Follow up?" That has helped me so much. I be in that inbox--I'm in that inbox like [bratbratbrat sfx]. I'm like--[both laugh].Deidre: Yeah, you're in there.Zach: I be following up. Like, "Hey, we had this conversation. I just wanted to circle back and make sure we're good." Deidre, you did that with me!Deidre: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: You gotta. Hey, you gotta do it. Life is crazy. Life is just so busy. It's important. Okay, so let's pivot a little bit. In your article "Why Strategic Companies Must Manage Diversity & Inclusion As A Business Risk"--it was recently published in Savoy Magazine--can we talk a little bit about the piece and what inspired that?Deidre: Yeah. So, you know, risk management is my background. It's always on my brain, whether it's from personal risk management to, like, company, and I say that because people think of risk always as a bad thing, but risk is--you know, based on the [?]--it talks about, you know, the possibility of a loss, no gain, or a gain. So you can have different levels of risk, and so with diversity and inclusion, it can--if you do it right, it can help you gain [?]. If you do it wrong, it can be harmful. And let's be clear, we see all of these things in the news, all of these headlines, and people are failing with diversity and inclusion, and I just want to help educate the consumer and companies and people about why this has to be a strategic risk and opportunity. So let's look at, you know, the news. So Papa John's, he's going over here saying the N word, you know, during conference calls, had to step down as a leader, and from that incident, you know, within a month their store sales fell 10%. You know, Dolce and Gabbana, they had a situation where they had a model, you know, who was Asian looking like she was eating, like, pizza with chopsticks, and, like, it was inappropriate, and then calling, like--and then what happened was they had to cancel a fashion show. Consumers were, like, destroying their products, and then their products were removed from different platforms in China. Like, Chinese magazines, Alibaba, whatever, and then another case is, you know, the Conrad Miami, a hotel out there, they discriminated--a manager discriminated against a woman. She asked to have Sundays off when she started the job because of her religious reasons. They ended up having to pay her punitive damages of $21 million, you know, and others for lost wages because she was fired as a retaliation for wanting to go to church, and she asked for tha ttime off. And so I say this because when it goes wrong, it costs companies money.Zach: You're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, Angry Orchard. So they just recently had a situation where they interrupted this couple trying to get married. This man was trying to propose to his girlfriend. They accused them of stealing merchandise and eventually kicked them out of there. So no, I'm 100% with you. So of course that then draws boycotts and all types of negative press [?]. Now, look, I don't personally drink Angry Orchard. This also is not an ad, but, you know--Deidre: That's some Angry Orchard right there. [laughs]Zach: [?]. People angry at the Orchard, okay? For the wrong and right reasons, mm-hmm. Okay, please continue though.Deidre: No, but that's where I'm coming from. Obviously I know--so when I say I'm hosting and organizing a diversity and inclusion conference, we are concentrating as a risk management community, talking about how we can help the risk management community get a hold on this from a strategic standpoint of either making insurance companies money or saving them through talent acquisition and getting the right talent, because we know if you lose employees you lose a certain amount of money trying to rehire people. We know what these--so think about this. When these companies have lawsuits, how are they getting paid? Typically through insurance. When it's a lawsuit and a claim. Unless it's--Zach: That's right.Deidre: Yeah, so it's really important to my industry strategically, from whether it's their internal practices or what they're paying out, especially if they're million-dollar claims or lawsuits, what's going on. So it's a strategic risk to think about how do we leverage it to grow our revenue and our brands, and also how do we minimize issues so that we're not losing money or losing top talent?Zach: I love it. I think that, you know, it's just interesting because--and I keep saying it's interesting, right? So you know--you know, Deidre, how when you talk to people you have certain things that you say as your pivot word? "It's interesting" is, like, my pivot word slash phrase, but I'm going to work on that. I'm gonna work on that after this interview, because I won't stop right now, but--Deidre: Can't stop, won't stop.Zach: Well, I will stop eventually.Deidre: [laughs] Not today, but you will tomorrow.Zach: Not today. It's about being introspective in the moment. I think that, you know, live introspection can help you actually move forward as opposed to--'cause you may not think about it again, so I'm calling it out right now in the middle of this interview awkwardly. So as I get older and I just pay attention, you know--and I'm bringing this up based off what you just talked about with the business imperative and the strategic imperative of inclusion and diversity--I realize though how much of the world I navigate is catered to white experiences, expectations, and comfort, and that doesn't really--that's not exclusive to--it's inclusive of corporate America as well, and when I think about the work that you're doing, in some way or another simply even bringing up otherness pushes up against some of those levels of comfort. So how do you navigate the fragility that comes with discussing non-whiteness in majority-white spaces?Deidre: You know... maybe that's my pivot word, "you know." [Zach laughs] I've been trained for this job and position--all my life I've been trained for this, because growing up, you know, from kindergarten to half of college I was in majority-white spaces. Like, my elementary school K through 8, my sister and I and maybe three other kids were black. Like, it was just mostly white. So I guess to me--the thing about this is with any idea or concept you're selling people on, you've gotta tell 'em what's in it for them, and I think that's a clear thing. And also don't make people feel ashamed for learning and uncovering bad habits. Like, for ex--and I don't know, think about this. If somebody, you know, for example, like you said, if you're saying a trigger word to pivot things, right? "Oh, you know, Zach, like, every time you transition you keep on saying "interesting." That's horrible." You're gonna be like, "Dang, that hurt me," right? It's just the same thing as saying, "Hey, you know, you always interrupt women." Like, "Why are you doing that?" That would not be my tactic when it, you know, comes to whether it's women issues, people of color, or whatever. So I always try to think of, you know, how to come out of a situation, whether it's for a person or a company or whatever, of how to tell them what's in it for them. So for example, "Hey, Acme Company, you're doing great when it comes to business practices, when it comes to just, like, in general." Like, "You're making money. Have you thought about the strategic risk of not having diverse talent and not really investing that?" "Oh, we have diverse talent." "Yeah, yeah, but do you understand the demographics are changing?" And companies are having either corporate social responsibility plans or diversity and inclusion initiatives that require or ask for diversity and what you're strategically doing. "Let me help you with that. Let me help you formulate a plan, 'cause I want you to succeed," or "Hey, I want you to be a good leader. Do you know about, you know, people are being evaluated now on how they are inclusive leaders? I have tools and resources if you want my help," and then they gotta ask for the help or say, "Yes, I want the help," you know? But at least make people aware of things in a way that you're helping them and less from a point of accusation or you're doing something wrong, because we all make mistakes, but until we're made aware of in a way that's safe and safe to admit--I have people tell me, "Deidre, like, you know, you put these things out there with diversity and inclusion that makes me rethink things, and you say it in a safe way so I don't feel threatened," and I'm like, "Thank you for saying that, because that is very uncomfortable, to say that you feel uncomfortable and threatened by things because you don't know what you're doing, so I'm happy to help you." Now, everyone doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be the burden of a minority to educate the majority on their pain or frustration. That is a lot of--it's just a lot of work, but I'm choosing this work, so I'm using my power and my platform to do that. So it's a choice involved, but you've gotta either step up and be open to changing and pivoting your messaging to make real impact.Zach: I love that, and you're absolutely right that it is a choice, and there are different methods to do that. I do love the fact that you said, you know, black and brown folks and just non-white cisgendered folks, non-white male cisgendered folks, we're not obligated to carry the burden of educating people, so I'ma just go ahead and give you this right here. [applause sfx] Just so people--'cause, you know, there's also this narrative of like, "Well, how can they know if you don't teach 'em?" Like, 'cause they got Google. Like, people learn how to code.Deidre: That is what I--I'm like, "You can Google or YouTube anything."Zach: [laughing] You can Google so much.Deidre: Now, Zach, the thing about--I won't deal with ignorance to the point where people, like, trolls and stuff like that, like, I don't have time for Trolls. I'm not a troll collector. I don't really like those dolls or people, so I don't play with them. I don't play with Trolls. Okay, but people who are really open to learning, yeah.Zach: Right, that's the qualifier. They gotta be open to learning, but I like the fact that from the jump you said, you know, you've been--basically you've been molded for this, you know what I'm saying? Like, you've been, you know what I'm saying, like--[to this day sfx]--right? Like, you're doing it, right? [both laugh]Deidre: And I don't know about your background. For me, I also--that's why I strategically chose to go to Spelman College. I went to Atlanta. I visited out there for homecoming. My cousin went to Clark and I was like, "This is poppin'." I transferred in the middle of my college experience. And so I--1. I wanted the experience, but I've never been a majority in an all mostly black woman environment, and it was kind of a reality shock. So I also say on the flip side, if you've always been other, you might want to try to be in the majority because it really is a way to reframe your identity, because on one side, yeah, it's a lot of issues and stress being other and always trying to, like, reinforce what you're doing, but sometimes it's also a platform to make you stick out and people look up to you and whatever versus you blend in. I mean, no one realized I was new for a while. I had to tell people, "Hey, I'm a new girl. I don't know where I'm going," because I was camouflaged. And so I say that because, you know, there's no real perfect spectrum on this and what you can do, so I would just say use your platform no matter what you're doing to help things out. And I also say this because I had a mentor, and she was like, "Deidre--" I was young, this was my first job. She said, "You are a young, attractive black woman in this space, and no one looks like you. You're gonna get people's attention no matter what. Make sure when you do it's for a reason." So minorities people, you stand out, you know, whatever it is that you--if you stand out in your space, actually leverage that as a tool to stand out for a reason and get your agenda across or, you know, use your thought leadership, because, I mean, it is a gift and a curse, so why not use it to your benefit?Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And, you know, for me, 'cause I typically do stand out, right? So I'm a black man--I'm, like, 6'1". I'm a pretty big dude, right? I'm, like, 270, 280. Like, I'm a big guy, right? And so, you know, I know that I'm gonna stick out, and then plus I have this weird, like, Southern/Connecticut accent because my mother was an English teacher, but I'm also very country at the same time, and so I have--it's a unique profile, so when I show up I'm just--look, I'm trying to--I'm trying to make a show, right? And not, like, in a Bojangles kind of way, but I mean make an impact, you know what I mean? I show up like--I show up, I'm like [what it do baby sfx]. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm out here, okay? And, like, you know, I'll bring you in with the jokes and stuff, but then if you're actually trying to challenge me, like, I actually have some--you know, I have some intellectual rigor behind what I'm saying, right? I might hit you with some multi-syllabic words, you know? Whatever. So I hear you is my point. Okay, this has been a great conversation. Any parting words or shout-outs before we let you go?Deidre: Yeah, shout-out to myself. I'm Deidre Wright. I'm here--Zach: Ayo, she said shout-out to myself. Oh, my gosh. Yo, wait a second. [air horns sfx, both laughing]Deidre: Because if there's nothing else you learn this session, it's that you gotta advocate for yourself. You've gotta be your best cheerleader. Man, shout yourself out. There's a way to do it, but do it, 'cause if we don't do it, who will? And I say this because there are so many people I meet, young people, and they're like, "I would never think you work in insurance. You don't look like that," and I give them a different alternative reality and role model. So by advocating for yourself--I tell people it's selfish not to share your expertise. It's selfish not to say who you are and what you're doing, because you could be motivating so many different people by just sharing and promoting yourself and inspiring generations. [chaching sfx] So advocate for yourself, you know? Find me at DeidreWright.com. Also I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram. So at Instagram I'm @DeidreWrite, like I'm writing, you know, my life story, and just holler at me if I can help you with either personal branding, diversity and inclusion, and uplifting our people of all kinds to advance and promote diversity and inclusion.Zach: My goodness, gracious. You know, over 100 episodes we have never had a guest say, "Shout-out to me, yo." Not "shout-out to my mom," not "shout-out to my people." "Shout-out to me." I love it. No, no, 100%, and Deidre, we'll make sure we have all of your links and stuff in the show notes, so no pressure there. Okay. Well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. You know where we're at. Look, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. It's a slight flex, but it's a true flex, okay? You Google--if you go to Google--shout-out to Google, 'cause this is not an ad--Google, Yahoo, Bing... what's another search engine, Deidre?Deidre: AskJeeves I guess is no longer here.Zach: AskJeeves? Yo. [both laugh]Deidre: Ask him. [both laugh]Zach: What you gonna say next, BlackPlanet? Xanga? AskJeeves? [both laugh]Deidre: MySpace. I mean, I still can't get into my old MySpace page. Forgot my passwords, but you can probably find me there too.Zach: My MySpace was fire back in the day. Anyway, the point is we're out here, okay? And we're really enjoying the fact that y'all are listening to this podcast, so shout-out to y'all. If you want to subscribe to the newsletter, again, just Google Living Corporate, you click the link, and there's a subscribe button right there, right when you click on the website, okay? We have new content. Of course we got this dope content right here. We got new blogs. Make sure you just check us out, okay? This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Deidre Wright right now - right on time - she's just right.Deidre: You know that's right.Zach: You know it's right. Not white, right?Deidre: But Deidre's right.Zach: Deidre's right. [both laugh] Deidre: Thanks, Zach, man. I appreciate it, and let me know if I can ever be of service to you.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon. Peace.

On today's show, Zach and Ade discuss and expand on last week's D&I episode featuring Chris Moreland. They relate some interesting statistics and share a list of five important things to know to actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy.Connect with us on IG, Twitter, and Facebook!https://www.instagram.com/livingcorporate/https://twitter.com/LivingCorp_Podhttps://www.facebook.com/livingcorporatepodcastCheck out our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: Oh, man. What's going on, y'all? It is Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: Sho are.Zach: [laughs] Yes, they are. Now, listen. It's funny. You know, we've been around for over a year, and--[both laugh] we've yet to explicitly talk about diversity and inclusion. I mean, our podcast is about--essentially about diversity and inclusion, right? But we've yet to talk about it, like, explicitly on this podcast, like, as a subject, and I find that kind of--kind of weird.Ade: Super weird. Super odd.Zach: Okay. Yeah, it's kind of odd. I mean, you would think it's kind of low-hanging fruit. It's, like, right there, you know? You know, we start off with these concepts and, you know, every-man topics, and we didn't really, like, go straight at it, you know? I don't know why we are just now getting into this. I don't know. Anyway, diversity and inclusion. Ade, what is--what is diversity and inclusion? Like, when we use the words "diversity and inclusion," like, what do we typically think of? Like, what are we--what are we talking about?Ade: We're talking about an actual effort by an organization, big or small, to ensure that their workplace, their groups, their team members, are representative of the world at large, that their spaces are not these homogeneous microcosms, and that they are really and truly including everybody in their missions. I think that would be my personal definition of diversity and inclusion.Zach: Well, you know, it's fire because you said homogeneous and microcosms back to back.Ade: Bloop. Get at me.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] No, I agree with that. You know, it's funny though, because often times I do believe that's the definition in theory, but a lot of times the term "diversity and inclusion" is just kind of used to make sure that folks don't get sued, right? Like, "We're not racist and we don't discriminate against people, so we're gonna use the term diversity and inclusion." You know what I'm saying? Like, if you look--I've seen some organizations--listen, I can't go into all of the details, but I've walked into a variety of companies, okay? And organizations can be as homogeneous as a pot of peas, okay?Ade: As a pot of peas...Zach: As a pot of peas. They all look the same. Everybody looks the same. [laughs] That's right. I'm country. I said it. A pot of peas. But on their website, oh, boy... boy, they got all the--all the jargon, all the lingo.Ade: Every stock photo of every [?] you can imagine.Zach: I see the same five black people in all of these diversity and inclusion photos.Ade: I mean, at least they have the common sense to actually have photos of people that they actually employ on their website. I have seen some egregious cases of literally stock photos on these websites.Zach: That's what I'm saying. That's what I've seen. I've seen the same--oh, I see what you--you thought I was saying the same black people on one website. No. Well, I've seen that too, but I'm saying I've seen the same stock photo images across multiple companies.Ade: Wow. Like, have you no shame? Have you no decency?Zach: [laughs] My goodness. There's millions of us out here. My gosh.Ade: There's literally billions, but I think the additional point, though, is that, like, it tells me what you value as an organization when you're willing to put more time and effort into planning your happy hours than you are into truly representing, not just racially but with the gender diversity makeup, the disability diversity makeup, with--like, there's so much that goes into thinking through what it means to have a diverse organization, and y'all will blow your HR budget on beer. And not even good beer.Zach: Not even good beer, lowkey.Ade: It drives me nuts that the conversation that we have about diversity and inclusion is about making it more palatable for everybody else as opposed to being like, "No, let's center this on what the truth of the matter is and what reality is as opposed to let's center this on what makes people comfortable."Zach: That's real. You're kind of jumping the gun a little bit, but I feel you. I feel you.Ade: My bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good. I'm excited. I mean, like, now I'm activated, you know what I'm saying? I'm here. Let's go. [both laugh]Ade: Get active.Zach: But no, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting because--so I had, like, a crazy idea, right? So we know that companies actively--you know, like, when you look at black and brown unemployment, disabled unemployment, it is drastically higher, right, than majority unemployment. It would be dope though if companies, when they interviewed people and, like, they know--you know you're not about to hire that black or brown person, so you say, "Hey, listen, I'm not gonna hire you, but I'd love to take your picture for some of our diversity and inclusion stock photos."Ade: Excuse me? First of all, lawsuit. I'm not even gonna say anything. I'll just nod, smile, and, like, put Voice Memo on on my phone and just--Zach: [laughing] I couldn't even say that with a straight face, but it's--but you know what, though? There's some money in there somewhere, man. There's some business in there somewhere.Ade: All right. If you're done being ridiculous, let's focus.Zach: No, I'm not--listen, I'm not really being ridiculous, because as an--as an aside, y'all, I just read some article at random about this little 12-year-old white kid who was getting six-figure deals to create dances for rap songs, and then people buy the dances, and then, like, they pay him. But he's not doing--he's not doing new dances though.Ade: These dances he's creating are a compilation of dances that black people came up with.Zach: Black dances. Yes, yes.Ade: I just also--I think this is a separate conversation actually, but I wanted to have a conversation about what it means to monetize blackness divorced of black people.Zach: I'm here for it. Well, this is--so I feel like I'm--Ade: We're going down this rabbit hole.Zach: [laughs] We are, but no, seriously though, the reason I was being--I was, like, making a joke--it's kind of a joke, it's kind of not--is like, people are out here monetizing and getting bread off of this, off of the concept of D&I, without actually doing any D&I, right? And so I'm just saying, like, at least if you did that, you--at least some of these black people who are unemployed that have a little bit more money in their pocket while they look for their next job. I mean, something--I don't know. There's something there, but anyway. Okay, cool. So we've talked a little bit about what we think D&I is. We've done some research, right?Ade: Oh, actually, I also want to have another example of this.Zach: Yes, keep going.Ade: Did you see recently that Twitter Detroit posted a picture of their office space? And all white people. Every single person in that photo.Zach: Mm-mm, did not see that.Ade: Yeah, every single person in that photo was white. Now, I think it later came out that the--all of the black people that they had employed at Twitter Detroit was at NSBE, although I don't quite--I don't quite know the truth of that statement, but it was just a really striking photo, that you are in Detroit, a city that is 84 or 85% black...Zach: Detroit is black black.Ade: Blackity-black as hell.Zach: Detroit's the kind of black that makes other people, you know, kind of uncomfortable. [laughs] Like, it's black. It's a lot of black people.Ade: Kind of. Detroit--up until, like, three, four years ago, Detroit was the kind of black that these type of white people were not going into.Zach: I mean, to be--to be honest, that's true. That's true.Ade: Anyway, I say all of that--Zach: So they said all of the black people was at NSBE?Ade: I don't know if--again, this is not something that I did a ton of research into, because they posted an apology tweet attached to that first image... and I can read the tweet to you actually. It says, "We hear you on the lack of diversity. We're committed to making our company reflect the people we serve, and that includes here in Detroit. We've got a lot more work to do. We have a team at NSBE now, and we look forward to connecting with the amazing people there." I just have two questions. The first is there are three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine maybe people in here, all of whom are white-presenting. There are a couple of people who are out of the photo or they have their backs turned, so I don't know necessarily how true that is, but it's incredible to me the--because I was able to see that photo, and obviously a lot of people were able to see that photo, and immediately see the problem, but what does it say of your organizations that you are so deeply homogeneous that you don't recognize right off the bat that, "Hey, we're in Detroit. Every single one of us in here is white. What does that say about this organization?Zach: Well, you know what they're gonna say. They're gonna say it's about diversity of thought, Ade. Diversity of thought.Ade: That's cute.Zach: [laughs]Ade: And let me not poo-poo that idea out the gate. Let us treat that as a serious, intellectual argument. Okay, so you were saying that diversity of thought is more important than physical diversity, gender diversity, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. However, what does it say that you think the only diversity that matters, diversity of thought that matters, is the kind of diversity of thought that represents you? Because there's no way you're telling me that you have the exact same thoughts and the exact same experiences and the exact same lens as, say, a black queer man who grew up in Detroit. There's just no--I don't believe that could ever be the case. Like, if you are from--if you're a queer man from midtown Chicago, you don't have the same thoughts as a queer man from Detroit. So I don't understand how that is even an argument that anyone could make, but I say all of that to say that diversity is important. So is inclusion, because it would suck even more if the person taking that photo had been a person of color or had been the only disabled person in the office or had been the only neuro-divergent person in the office, and they're not even included in the photo. You see what I'm saying? Like, there's--Zach: Oh, I hear you. Yeah. I'm letting you cook.Ade: There's so many different--[laughs] there's so many different--thank you, friend--there's so many different layers of complexity to that that on the one hand, why don't you have any of these--any of these types of diversity represented in your office? But also I don't know that it would be a safe space for anybody to walk up and say, "Oh, I'm the only black person in here." Having to represent at all times, that just sounds exhausting. So it's just--it's a very difficult conversation for me to--for me to really think through. Do you have some thoughts, friend?Zach: You know, I do, I do, and I appreciate you actually, like, slowing us down a little bit, 'cause I was gonna say that, you know, we did some research, right, and we've read a few things--just a couple thinkpieces, you know what I'm saying? Some Gallup data from the civil rights movement and some other things, you know what I'm saying? And labor data all around what does it really mean to be diverse and inclusive in an organization. And, you know, we've seen, like, you know, five things organizations are doing wrong, the top three reasons why D&I doesn't work, you know, what makes an effective D&I organization, what makes an effective D&I strategy, da-da-da-da-da, and so, look, as opposed to us reading all of our--all of the findings that we've had and just kind of reading it to you--boring, right--we decided--we, Living Corporate, right, Zach and Ade--decided to give y'all our own list of what you need to know about diversity and inclusion so that you can actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy. Yo, JJ. Drop the Flex bomb. Whoa.Ade: Not the flex bomb. [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Boom.Ade: I'm really looking forward to you being a dad, because you're just so equipped, and I'm tired of hearing your dad jokes.Zach: Nah, drop the Flex bomb. [dropping] In fact, JJ, drop it again. Yes.Ade: JJ, please stop. [he stops] Thank you.Zach: Nah, but it's--you know, it's important. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna give y'all some game for free. We're gonna give you some of our thought leadership for nothing at all. All y'all gotta do is listen. I mean, come on. I ain't trying to brag, but I'm saying, like, we're pretty dope, right? Am I wrong, Ade?Ade: I mean, no.Zach: Okay, here we go. So how many of these do we have? We've got five, right?Ade: I mean, something like that, but you know we can always expand on our lists if we start riffing off each other, et cetera, et cetera. We got five. We got five on it.Zach: All right, we got five. We have five on it. We're not messing with that endo weed, because it's not federally legal, but we do have five on it. [both laugh] Okay, here we go. First things first. [Ade continues laughing] You're really laughing. That's funny. First things first, diversity and inclusion are two different things. I know.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars, I know. Diversity and inclusion are two different things. Often enough times, we kind of just throw the terms "diversity" and "inclusion," like, we just smack 'em together, but they're actually very different, right? So a lot of us understand what diversity is. Diversity is the concept of having a variety of experiences, perspectives, in gender representation, ethnic representation, able-bodied representation, sexual orientation representation, right? Like, geographic representation. Having different types of perspectives in a space. Like, that's the concept of--Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: [?] Sorry.Zach: It's good. Hey, JJ. Just cut all that out. That part is diversity, right? Inclusion though is different, right? Inclusion is not just about--it's not just about having people have a seat at the table, but making sure that those voices are actually heard at the table. And so a lot of times we'll say, "Well, inclusion means making sure people feel included." Inclusion means the power not only to sit at the table but to speak and have your voice equally heard at that table, right? And so it's not just enough to have a variety of voices at a table if only a certain number of voices or a certain type of voice is gonna be heard. Then it just kind of becomes, like, a dog and pony show, right? So no, I mean, that's really what it means, all right? Inclusion is all about making sure that those voices that have a seat at the table actually are heard, and typically, because of the hierarchical natures of these companies, voices that are not high on the totem pole are not heard, right? So it's about making sure that those voices are actually supported and given authority and access so that their ideas can be mobilized, right? I think a lot of times when we talk about inclusion it's like, "Oh, we have you in the room," but you're, like, over in the corner, or you're just kinda--and it also just kind of makes you feel tokenized, right? It's about actually making sure you have a voice. So that's the first one. Diversity and inclusion is--the first one is people don't really understand that diversity and inclusion are two different things, and they don't understand what those words mean.Ade: My turn. So beyond, you know, expanding the table and inviting people to eat--that's one of the phrases that I've used to describe, or that I've heard used to describe, diversity and inclusion, empowering people. I also would like to make the point that it's not the responsibility of marginalized people to diversity your workplace. What I've seen happen time and time again is that these embattled corporations where people realize "Oh, no, we treated diversity and inclusion as an afterthought, and now everybody looks like [trash?]. What do we do?" And they will hire somebody, usually a high-profile person, black person or a queer woman, they'll bring these people in and do nothing to change the fact that the culture that fostered this homogeneity continues, and so--and in so doing make it the responsibility of this person that they invited into this hostile workplace, make it their responsibility to improve everything. And then when said person starts making points like, "Yeah, you really shouldn't be making rape jokes during our lunch hour. You shouldn't be making them at all, but it's especially not appropriate in the work space," or saying things like, "Yeah, I'm actually not gonna let you touch my hair, Karen. I don't want to do that, and you don't have my permission to do that, so great talk." They're treated as though they are the problem, and we don't address the institutional racism. We address the black women talking about the institutional racism. We don't address the institutional--just general lack of respect for people with disabilities, and it's something that you would know if you spoke to the people who are experiencing these things, but it is instead more expedient to pat yourselves on the back for your awesome allyship and employing someone in a wheelchair and doing nothing to ensure that this person in a wheelchair is safe, comfortable, and can do their job without feeling belittled or patronized or outright ignored. So to restate my point, it is not the responsibility of the marginalized person to do the work of diversity and inclusion. It's not their job. It is everybody's job to ensure that the workplace is open and accessible.Zach: That's good. That's good.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] You like that. That makes you--that makes you giggle. Bars makes you laugh. I've noticed that over the past few episodes here. Okay, my turn. So in the spirit of your last point, my third--the third entry here is that diversity and inclusion will only go as far as the majority allows it to go, okay? So I'ma say it again. Diversity and inclusion will go...Ade: Bars.Zach: Only [laughs] as far as the majority allows it to go. So what do I mean by this? Let me give y'all some statistics from some Gallup polls back in 1961, in the throes of our U.S. civil rights movement. I'm gonna give y'all a few data points. Here we go. Do you approve--and this is a poll, right, a Gallup poll, given to white folks in 1961, again, in the middle of the civil rights movement. Here we go. "Do you approve or disapprove of what the Freedom Riders are doing?" 22% approved, 61% disapproved, 18% had no opinion. Here's another one. "Do you think sit-ins at lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes will hurt or help the Negroes' chance of being integrated in the south?" 57% said they believe it will hurt, 28% said it will help, 16% said no opinion. Here's the last one, okay? This is the [Survey Research Amalgam?]. This is April, 1963. "Some people feel that in working for equal rights for Negroes, Reverend Martin Luther King is moving too fast. Others think he is not working fast enough. What do you think?" 8% said he's moving too fast. 71% said he's moving at the right speed. 21% said he isn't moving fast enough. And so, you know, when we talk about--when we talk about, like, historically, right, civil rights, not just for African-Americans, but it's the easiest one for us to point to because historically, like, when you kind of--like, there's the most data points around it, and, you know, really, if we were to go by the data and the survey data and what people were really comfortable with, then we would still probably not really be--I mean, we're not really integrated, but we wouldn't have even the civil rights laws we have, right? And I think an uncomfortable reality is when you talk about diversity and inclusion and you talk about creating a truly diverse and inclusive working environment, it can only go as far as the majority is comfortable with it going, right? And when you think about the fact that--like, when you look at the civil rights laws, and you especially look--if you look at our present, right, like, we're fighting to maintain some very basic civil rights laws that we achieved over 50 years ago, just over 50 years ago, like, and we haven't really made, in terms of legislation, much progress since then. In fact, again, we're fighting just to keep what we established 50 years ago, and really, if you think about historically, what we fought to get 50 years ago, we should have already had, like, 50 to 60 years before that. And so, you know, I think that's--like, again, just kind of pointing to your point--like, really reinforcing your point around the fact that, like, it's not--it's not about making people comfortable. It's not about, like, just kind of checking a box, and ultimately, it's gonna take all of us, but the majority, to drive and make sure that we're actually moving forward. It can't be the responsibility of the marginalized to move the needle. We don't have the numbers. We don't have the power.Ade: Facts.Zach: So that's number three. I'm volleying it back to you.Ade: Okay. I think I'm gonna expand on a point that I made at the end of my last--my last rant. So diversity and inclusion is all of our responsibility. It is not a position. It is not--the term Chris Moreland used was a function, and it's also not about how good it makes individual people feel. It's not about the money that it makes for the organization. Like, sure, yes, there are stats out there that show how good it is to have a diverse workplace, but--and I'm starting to realize that it's really not a common thing or a common opinion anymore to do things because they're the right thing to do. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis on this, and that's trash.Zach: That's really trash.Ade: Yeah, I don't--I don't know what's happening. Maybe I shouldn't say that. I know what's happening. It's capitalism.Zach: Right.Ade: But the point is that diversity and inclusion is about you as the individual respecting the whole of other people who are individuals in your workspaces and recognizing when there are individuals who aren't welcome in your workplace and doing something to change that. Even beyond what it means to be an ally. You are actively doing the work of being a good human being and encouraging others in your workplace to do the same. I think I--when we were working on the Disabled At Work episode, I read a story about a guy who got a job working at one of these big tech companies, and he just knew it was gonna suck, right? Because when he had interviewed there, he did not see anybody who was wheelchair-bound as he was, and he had a very large electric wheelchair, and he was like, "I can't turn it down because of the money, but I feel like this is not going to be great." But he then told stories of how everybody was inclusive. They would ensure that he could get his scooter up and down these hills in San Francisco. They would ensure that he wasn't just stuck being wet when it rained or that he could have a standing desk as opposed to the lower desk that wouldn't work for his electrical chair. So there were all of these different parts of what it means to be inclusive, and not just empowering and recognizing the diversity in your coworkers, but also saying--taking it a step further and being like, "I'm right there with you." Like, "Whatever it is that you need in order to feel comfortable in this space, in order to feel human in this space--" Like, we gotta be here at least 8 hours a day, dogg. Like, the least we can do is ensure that you are your whole self while you're here, and I think that is such a significant thing to highlight. It's such a significant thing because it very, very easily goes unspoken that you have a responsibility to your coworkers to not just be kind but be supportive.Zach: You know, I think a large part of diversity and inclusion just comes--like, a large part of it is driven by empathy, right? Like, really--and I know that Chris talked about this too in the interview. It was just about, like, understanding someone's story. Like, building a connection with them. Like, really understanding them. It's challenging for me though, because, like--and I really--I love what Chris is doing, not only at Vizient but with his own start-up--with his own start-up at Storytellers, you know, but I don't have to hear your story, right, like, for me to treat you and recognize that you're a human being, you know what I'm saying? Like, I shouldn't have to. I get it. I get it from a relationship-building perspective. Maybe I need to hear your story for us to, like, really build trust, but I shouldn't have to hear your story for us to, like--for me to just empathize and recognize that you breathe--you're breathing and walking, or--you're breathing and existing and having a human experience just like me. It's heartbreaking, to be honest, when I think about it like that. But okay, cool. So last one. I think I'm--I think it's on me.Ade: Most definitely.Zach: All right. So really kind of pigging--piggy-backing off of my first point, but it's really important. Ayo, if you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Say it again. If you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Listen, it's not enough for organizations just to hire non-majority people, right? Because often times if you look at the turnover rate of non-majority employees, they're significantly higher than majority employees, and if you do a cross-analysis with non-majority turnover and minority representation, you'll see some connections--you'll see some connections there, right? Like, you'll see in organizations that are not truly inclusive, that do not have representation and some level of power, distribution of power for non-majority people, those organizations struggle to retain non-majority talent, and I think something to continue to keep in mind--organizations, I'm talking to y'all--listen, man, these gener--like, millennials and these Generation Z, the people coming behind us, we're aware. Like, we pay attention, and we're sensitive to that. Like, we peep game. Like, we're gonna look and be like, "Oh, there's no--there's none of me here. I don't see myself here. Okay, so I know I probably got only so much time to go before I gotta find somewhere to be," or when something goes wrong or they feel like they're not getting the coaching that they need or they're not getting the development that they need or they're getting passed over for promotion, if they don't feel like they can talk to somebody and they're not represented in the decision--in that pool of people that actually make the decisions and make the company grow and grow, then they're not gonna feel like they can talk to anybody, and they're gonna leave, right? They're gonna be even more discouraged to, like, even try to stay, because they'll be like, "For what? I'ma be the--I'm the only person here." They're not gonna be as comfortable when it comes to networking and trying to build relationships and--Ade: Correct.Zach: Right? Because they don't know who they can talk to. Like--and then, like, many of us, we're the first people from our families in Corporate America. That's my story. Ade, is that your story?Ade: Like, only one.Zach: Exactly. [laughs]Ade: Solo dolo.Zach: Solo dolo, and so, like, ayo, like, inclusion is important, and I guess part B to this one is listen, diversity of thought by itself is not real. Okay? That's right. I'm giving y'all two, so we got six now. Diversity of thought is not--diversity of thought on its own is not real. It's a term that some group of people in some laboratory made up just to kind of pat themselves on the back and create diversity where there really isn't any.Ade: Not a laboratory.Zach: [laughs] They made crack and diversity of thought in the same place. What's up?Ade: I am...Zach: JJ, give me them air horns right here. [laughs]Ade: Okay. Okay, [?].Zach: Nah, but for real though, like, it's not real. Like, so diversity of thought is as relevant as diversity of experience, and if you look at American history, experiences are sharply divided along racial, gender, and sexual orien--lines of sexual orientation. Ade, you got another one?Ade: Just a final thought.Zach: Do your thing.Ade: I think that paying lip service to diversity is almost worse than not doing anything and not paying attention to diversity and inclusion in the first place, because you--when you pay lip service to diversity, you delude people into thinking your workplace is a safe space and that they can come to your jobs and bring their own selves and come and do what they love to do for you. When you don't even pretend, it lets everybody know who to avoid. When you pay lip service and you end up being these ultra-toxic, ultra-just all around disgusting places for people, it's almost heartbreaking, right, because people want to come into these places and do good work and go home and love their families, and instead they come into these places, you gaslight them, pretend that nothing is actually happening when, you know, they're facing all of these micro-aggressions, they are being passed up for promotions, their careers are stalling, and they have no allies and no way out. It's a pretty abusive relationship, I'd call that, and even further than that I would say that, you know, you're actively oppressing them in that scenario. So I say all of that to say that if you know that you have no investment whatsoever in diversity and inclusion and the success of everybody--and the growth, too, of all of these folks, then just leave us alone. Love us or leave us alone. That's all I ask.Zach: No, real talk though. No lukewarm DM--no lukewarm stuff, right? Be hot or cold. Either you're in or you're out.Ade: The man came through with a word from the church for y'all.Zach: [laughs]Ade: Don't think I didn't notice, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Man, okay. Well, y'all, so this has been a dope B-Side, just sharing our thoughts about the interview with Chris Moreland. Really enjoyed him, and yeah. Ade, anything else? Do we want to do Favorite Things? Are we good?Ade: My Favorite Thing right now--we can if you have something.Zach: I got something. Go ahead, yeah.Ade: Okay. Okay, so my current Favorite Thing is the voice of a young reggae artist known as Koffee. Love, love, love--I have just been listening to her on repeat lately and finding out--finding her music, where I can find her, but amazing. I love her.Zach: That's what's up.Ade: That's it for my Favorite Things.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, you know--Ade: Oh, wait. I lied.Zach: Keep going. Go crazy.Ade: Sorry, one other Favorite Thing. I have this book I'm currently reading. It is the AWS Certified Solutions Architect Study Guide.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, it's my second Favorite Thing. It's just a personal--as a reminder to myself to keep working.Zach: I respect that. Okay, okay. I have one Favorite Thing, and this Favorite Thing, it's--you know, it's something that I partake in every day. It's actually a beverage, and this beverage--this beverage is called kombucha.Ade: Oh, I thought you were gonna say water. I was about to be like--Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. I definitely do drink water every day though, and shout-out--ayo, if you're listening to this, go ahead and get yourself some water. I don't care what time it is. Ayo, get some water and take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip. Okay, so--[both laugh] Okay, so--Ade: Some ASMR peer pressure for your head top.Zach: That was incredible. Yo, we should actually do an ASMR episode of us just, like, drinking water quietly. [whispering] "Ah." [like his thirst was quenched, laughs]Ade: No. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: "Ah, these ice cubes." We could, like--no, but seriously though, 'cause we got these--these mics are pretty good. Like, we could just take--like, make sure the ice hits the glass. Clink, clink, clink. You know what I'm saying? It's, like, all soft. All right, so listen here. Kombucha--and please don't--y'all, don't kill me in the comments if I'm saying it wrong. I'm country. Forgive me. It is a fermented, slightly--only slightly--alcoholic green or black tea drink, okay? It is so good. Like, think about it like--it's like a soda. It's like a healthy soda, right? And there's--Ade: [?]Zach: Say it again?Ade: I wouldn't go that far, a healthy soda.Zach: You wouldn't go that far? It's like a healthy soda.Ade: No, it's not.Zach: It's carbonated. It has some bite to it.Ade: You know what? You're right. Who are me to disagree with your Favorite Thing? My bad.Zach: [laughs] It's so good though, y'all, and it's like--and so, like, you know, it comes in all kinds of flavors. You can--and it's a fermented tea, right? So you take the tea, and it's fermented, and then you put, like--you know, you can put whatever you want in there to flavor it. So, like, I'll--my favorite flavor is ginger-ade. It's like ginger and lemon and honey and fermented, like, fermented with the kombucha. Man, it is so good, and it's low-calorie, right? So, like, a bottle--like, the same amount of this drink that would be, like, I don't know, 200 calories in soda is, like, 50 calories. And it's good for your digestion, so it helps keep you regular. That's right, we're talking about health. We talk about wellness on this podcast, so part of wellness is making sure that you're regular. Come on, Ade. You know what I'm talking about.Ade: Please leave me out of this narrative.Zach: [laughs] But it's important, y'all. It's important. It's important to be regular, and so anyway, kombucha, it helps. It has those live cultures and bacteria for your stomach, and it's just delicious. It's just so good. So yeah, that's my Favorite Thing. I don't have a brand, 'cause we don't have no sponsors for kombucha yet, just like, you know, Capital City Mambo Sauce ain't wanna show us any love, but we still love y'all. It's okay, it's okay, but I'm not giving no more free ads, okay? So I'm not gonna talk about the brand. I'ma just say I like kombucha. Or is kam-buka? What is it?Ade: I'm pretty sure it's kombucha.Zach: Okay, cool. I just wanted to make sure I said it right.Ade: But then you said it really, really wrong, so I really don't know if you saying it right in the first place even counts.Zach: [laughs] Dang, that's jacked up. You're supposed to be my peace.Ade: No, sir, I'm not. Candice would have my head.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I just--first of all, that was a setup. Secondly--I forgot everything I was about to say because I was--I was so startled and taken aback at that--at that statement, wow. Candice, if you're listening to this, I don't want [?]. That is all.Zach: Candice gonna show up--Candice gonna show up to D.C. with that Yao Ming on her all 'cause of me being silly, and I apologize.Ade: All of the choppas just aimed in my direction, and I want none of it. I'm good.Zach: Yeah, nah, 'cause I'm joking. It's jokes, it's jokes. Candice don't listen to this podcast.Ade: Wait a minute. Now [?].Zach: [laughs]Ade: All right, y'all. That does it for us on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and please subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question for us that you'd like us to read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. We're also taking any wins that you've had lately. We're taking any [refuse?], any thoughts that you'd like to share with us. That's it for us. This has been Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

We speak with Corporate Alley Cat founder and CEO Deborah T. Owens about the importance of strategic networking and self-advocacy within the workplace.Find out more about Corporate Alley Cat: https://corporatealleycat.com/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: President and CEO Shari Runner of the Chicago Urban League once said, "Speaking truth to power means believing deeply in what you say and fighting every day to have that heard. It may not be popular. It means taking a risk. It means standing for something." The context of the term "speaking truth to power" originates from the Quakers of the 1850s, who spoke out against institutional oppression to people who hold power, specifically, in their case, of American slavery to the government. Today, speaking truth to power means the same, and there are several institutions to which we could speak power. However, I believe there's also value in speaking truth to yourself, because sometimes we can be our biggest barriers to walking in the power we don't even know we have. I'd go as far to say that the day we speak up in affirmation of our own talents, our own voice and our own desires, is the day we step into levels of freedom that were previously unknown. The question is, "What does it mean to be an advocate for one's self? And what, if any role, does networking factor into it?" My name is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about being strategic in how we speak up for ourselves.Ade: Super excited to discuss this topic. I believe us people of color, especially for women of color, it's easy to default to not speaking up for much at all, be it wanting more responsibility on the job, dealing with a difficult colleague or challenging your boss, all in the name of not messing up the bag, being seen as problematic or as some sort of rabble-rouser.Zach: And let's be real, we've had these concerns for a real reason. I mean, it kind of reminds us of our episode about salary negotiation in the sense that, in my experience, I'm often told by folks who look like me to "just keep my head down and stack my checks." Like, that advice has really held up as wisdom. I really don't believe that's a sustainable way of managing your career though, for practical development reasons or for your own mental wellness.Ade: Definitely agree. I mean, I've seen more than a few folks who are in places in their career that don't necessarily align where I think their skill set is, and every now and then I'll ask them how they got where they are.Zach: And what do they say?Ade: They nearly always include some story about them asking for more opportunities for leadership or requesting a new project or manager or career counselor. Closed mouths don't get fed.Zach: And it's funny, 'cause when I talk to folks who look like us, those same reasons--not having the right opportunity, being on the wrong project, having the wrong manager, a lack of support--all is reasons why they quit or, even worse, didn't progress.Ade: You know what? The thing is it's 2018, bruh. Don't get me wrong. I don't think today is a wholly different time than any time before us. If anything, we have more resources to tell us how to be, just maybe not the culture that teaches us that we have the right to do so.Zach: No, I agree, and all of us are not all slouches in Corporate America, but, you know, that same energy that we have on social media of speaking up, calling out the shenanigans, canceling folks as need be, why can't we take some of that same energy and apply it in the workplace?Ade: To be honest, it comes right down to exposure and practice. People of color haven't had to be in Corporate America at this number before. Like, you said it yourself, you're one of the first in your family to be in Corporate America, and it's 2018. I believe as more of us inhabit these spaces, in time the culture around us will change, but that could still be decades. We need help right now.Zach: Yeah. You know, it would be great if we could talk to someone who was a corporate executive and has experience speaking truth to power in the name of their own career. Someone who's maybe launched a company that really is the spiritual godmother of Living Corporate and that they provide advice and resources for professionals of all colors to best manage and advocate for their careers.Ade: Hm. You mean like our guest Deborah T. Owens?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Sound Man, listen, you don't even have to ask anymore. We're like--Ade, we're, like, almost done with the first season, so Sound Man, go ahead and give 'em to me.[Sound Man complies]Zach: That's what I'm talking about.Ade: Thank God I was not hoarse that time.Zach: No, that went very well. No, it was a very moi--I don't want to say moist, but it was--[laughs]Ade: [laughs] I hate that word. All right, so next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, Deborah T. Owens. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we discussed, we have Deborah Owens. Deborah, welcome to the show, ma'am. How are you?Deborah: I'm great, Zach, and thanks for having me on.Zach: No problem. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Deborah: My name is Deborah Owens. I am the founder and CEO of The Corporate Alley Cat, 'cause sometimes you gotta get scrappy, and we are an organization that focuses on helping professionals of color advance their careers. And we do this by helping them navigate the corporate environment with the goal of shortening the learning curve and accelerating success in the workplace.Zach: So let's talk a little bit more about The Corporate Alley Cat. Real quick, where did the name come from? I love the tagline, by the way. "'Cause sometimes you gotta get scrappy." I like that.Deborah: You know what's so funny? People always ask me about how I came up with the name, and what's interesting is my inspiration for the name actually came from Congressman Maxine Waters. Many, many years ago, probably over 20 years ago, I saw a 60 Minutes interview she did, and I think it was Mike Wallace asked her about being an African-American woman in Congress and working with all of these men, and she said something to the effect that "That's not a problem for me 'cause I have a little alley cat in me," and I was like, "I've got some alley cat in me too." So it just came to me, Corporate Alley Cat, because you really do have to be scrappy. It is not a place for the faint of heart. You have to use your voice, you have to ask for what you want, and you can't be scared to tussle sometimes.Zach: So when you say tussle--what do you mean by tussle?Deborah: So what I mean by tussle is sometimes you have got to use your voice to say, "Hey, this is not right," "Hey, I need some clarity around this." You can't always be scared to escalate. We have to get rid of this fear of rocking the boat, because sometimes when people say "rocking the boat" it just means that they don't want to get out of their comfort zone, right? So say getting scrappy, you have to be willing to hold yourself accountable, but also to hold others accountable. You have to know your value, and more importantly, Zach, you have got to honor who you are in the workplace, otherwise you will become bitter and resentful, and you will turn into a victim, and so I always encourage people, you know, as a Corporate Alley Cat, to lead from a position of strength and knowing who you are and not from one of fear and uncertainty.Zach: You've launched Corporate Alley Cat, and it's been growing, and it's been moving forward. What has happened since you've launched Corporate Alley Cat that's affirmed for you that this is the right path and a viable space and the right thing to be doing?Deborah: Oh, yeah. So one, we are very engaged with our audience. I talk to my audience in some form or fashion almost every day, so I get lots of notes, letters. I talk to a lot of people who have shared with me their stories and their challenges and also their opportunities in Corporate America, and they often share with me how they've used the information we've shared to make a change or to help them better have a conversation or to help them get a promotion. Since we've launched, we've started a membership community where people can come and have direct access to all of our webinars, many courses, an Ask Me Anything form, and just a lot of resources to help them navigate on a daily basis in their corporate environment. I did a video on LinkedIn that told the story of how I started The Corporate Alley Cat, and can I tell you--I think it was in less than two weeks we got over 30,000 views. I can't tell how you how many people said, "This is my story too, but I didn't know what to do." So every day I get notes from people sharing their experiences, encouraging me--you know, on LinkedIn I get a lot of notes who just say, "Hey, I follow you. I watch all of your information. Keep doing what you're doing. It's needed." We are now working with corporate organizations who have also tapped into the power of The Corporate Alley Cat, and so we are sharing our resources with them. So we've grown from, you know, two years ago to not having much of an audience to having an audience of over 14,000 in less than two years. We have a very robust community online. Our email community is very large. So people have really responded to this, and I can tell you that all of our presenters who are corporate leaders, they've all said, "Absolutely I want to be a part of this." So I've never had anybody--let me knock on wood--to say no. They all support the vision, and they want to give back, and so it's been a really positive experience for us. It's more than a business for me, Zach. It really is my passion, and it's a culmination of stuff that I've been doing throughout my entire career.Zach: Absolutely. And it's so interesting that you say that. You know, I was talking to someone else who started a platform around black and brown experiences, but from--not just from a corporate perspective, but just in representation across a variety of lifestyle platforms and areas. And it's curious, you know? Any time you're doing any type of work that's really focused on uplifting and affirming black and brown identities or black identities or brown identities exclusively or just underrepresented identities, it has to be the type of work that you truly care about because it's not easy work, and it's hard work, right? So it can't just be a job for you or a side gig for you. It has to really be a part of, you know, your heart strings. It has to really be caught up in who you are, and I definitely see that within The Corporate Alley Cat, and it's really--again, just really encouraging for us. As you know, today we're talking about strategic networking and self-advocacy. Can you talk to us about how these elements in career management come together and why they matter?Deborah: I would say what I've learned over the last two years is that most of the professionals of color who are part of our community--and these are people with advanced degrees and lots of experience--the biggest issue that they have is they don't have strategic relationships in the workplace. The notion that you can just come to work and work hard and move through the organization is a myth. It doesn't operate like that. Often times we come into work, we're [smart about?] the technical side, but we don't have the relationship side. And often times we view the networking and the going to drinks with people after work and the informal conversations as an extra part of their job. I've heard people say, "I don't have the time to do all of that," you know? "I'm working." Well, what I want to share with people is it's not extra. That is a part of your job, to build those relationships, to build your network, because the bigger network your is and the more strategic it is, the better access you have to get things done in the organization. I'll give you an example. Somebody called me recently, and they were very upset about a review they got. And I said, "All right. Well, tell me a little bit about your performance." "The performance was great, but a lot of people didn't know what they were doing." I said, "Well, who do you know in the organization?" They said, "Well, what do you mean?" "Who do you have relationships with? What leaders do you have relationships with? Who can you go to that will advocate for you?" And they'd been in the organization seven years, and they were like, "Well, I don't--I don't really know anybody." I said, "Well, that's part of the problem. No one knows you, and when people don't know you, they're not gonna speak on your behalf. If people don't know you, when they are positioning people for future and current roles your name isn't gonna come up, and if your name does come up there's nobody to vouch for you." So building strategic relationships is really more than networking. It's a very intentional process where you want to identify people where you both can bring value to the relationship. And the other thing is it's a long-term relationship. It's not one of those relationships that you build overnight, right? And the other part that I find with professionals of color is that for those who do have the relationships, they're scared to leverage them. And what do I mean by that? They're scared to go to somebody and say, "Listen," you know, "I'm interested in this director role. Will you support me?" "I'm interested in this. Will you help facilitate some conversations?" "I'm interested in doing XYZ. I'd love to get together with you and figure out how we can create some opportunities here," or "Hey, I'd like to get on this project. I know you're leading it up. I want to be a part of this. Let's talk about how we can make that happen." Often times even if we do have the relationships, we don't leverage them.Zach: And why do you think that is though?Deborah: I think a lot of it, to be perfectly honest, comes down to confidence. I think that's the number one thing, and I understand that. I think a lot of it is fear. "What if I'm rejected?" I think a lot of it is people aren't certain about what they can ask for and what they can't ask for. They don't know what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. And often times--listen, we haven't had models in terms of how to navigate the corporate arena. Now, both of my parents are professionals, but my dad is an attorney. My mom was an elementary school principal. They were both, like, the kings and queens of their domain, right? So this whole idea about how you navigate and how you get mentors, and more importantly advocates, it's new, and often times you don't know what you don't know, and that's really at the heart of why we created The Corporate Alley Cat. So we spend a lot of time talking about how to build those strategic relationships, but more importantly giving people the information about the how-to's, how to build, how to maintain, how to nurture, and more importantly how to leverage those relationships for career advancement and career success.Zach: You talked earlier about the fact that you said--you said sometimes you gotta get a little scrappy. Can you talk to us about how getting a little scrappy and having those strategic relationships come into play?Deborah: Sure. The best example I can give you, Zach, would be to tell you my story. Many years ago, I found myself in a situation where there was discrimination. I was a high performer, never had a bad evaluation, had had a very successful career, particularly if you look at trajectory, and I found myself in a situation where none of that seemed to matter. This was a really difficult situation for me. It was really--I like to use the word horrific 'cause that's what it was. I've shared openly that I lost 20 pounds, my hair was falling out, and it took me about three months to recognize that it was discrimination because I didn't want it to be discrimination. And I didn't know what to do, and if it was discrimination, what the heck do you do? I don't know. You need me to build a business plan? Got it. You need me to exceed this or navigate that, analyze this? Got it, but how do you handle workplace discrimination? I haven't a clue. So once I realized that that was the situation, I began documenting and sharing the information with the person who was doing the discrimination, and when I wasn't getting the kind of results I needed, I put together a letter. It was a very clear, concise, and firm letter, and I sent it to the president of the company. I didn't get bogged down in HR. I went right to the person that I knew could make a decision on this, and I basically said in my opening line, you know, "I'm being treated differently, I'm in a hostile work environment, and my boss is engaging in constructive discharge." So I didn't--you know, I didn't put any flowery language in it, and then I closed it with "I am requesting immediate resolution."Zach: Can I pause you right there? And let me ask you something for our listeners, but could you please explain what constructive discharge is?Deborah: Constructive discharge is when you feel like your boss is trying to get you to quit. Is that accurate? 'Cause you're HR.Zach: It is. Yes, it is when your employer creates an environment, through often times passive-aggressive means, to make it so uncomfortable for you that you really have no choice but to resign.Deborah: Right, and so I felt very much that he was trying to do that. And I wasn't gonna allow that to happen, and the reason why is because I hadn't done anything wrong. He'd never given me any constructive feedback, and I was not going to be a part of this. I was not going to acquiesce. I was not gonna go away quietly. If I'm gonna be uncomfortable, then you're gonna be uncomfortable, meaning the organization, because I was [attacking this?] head on. And listen, I had my moments where I was very--I had a couple months there where I became kind of a shell of who I was, and then I had this moment where I was like, "What the heck are you doing? This is not who you are," and then I got my bearings again, but I knew that I was not going to leave the organization unless they forced me to, and if they didn't have anything then I would escalate that as well, but what happened was I sent the letter in. A week later, the president of the company called me, and I kid you not, in 20 minutes the situation was resolved. So what does that mean? That means that he called. He apologized. He said they should've intervened sooner. He said, you know, "I pulled together the leadership team, and we had a--we discussed this," which, as you know, is your worst nightmare come true, that the leadership team has gathered to discuss you, and that [inaudible] me. And he said, "Unanimously we want you to be with this organization. We want to support you," and so what happened is I took on another role, a more senior role, and I continued to grow with the organization and take on leadership positions. And more importantly--and this is the second phase of the "get scrappy"--when I got into my new position, I became determined that I didn't want anybody else to go through this alone, so I became this very vocal, diverse in inclusion person in my organization, and I think I was very instrumental in making some significant changes. So again, I didn't come out of this situation and sit in the corner and just be quiet and be happy. It let me keep my job. I came in there saying, "We've got to change some things, and I'm gonna be part of that," and so we did. And so that's what I mean by being scrappy, you know? You've gotta be scrappy to advocate for yourself, but you also have to be scrappy and advocate for others, those people who are coming behind you. One of the reasons that I was really clear about making sure I did a lot of documentation is because I said, "If this happens to somebody else, I want to make sure that this organization cannot say they didn't know." So again, having that foresight and thinking about other people who are coming behind you, and getting scrappy is getting out of your comfort zone. Do you think it was easy for me to write the letter? You know, my finger was shaking when I sent that--you know, hit the Send button, right? Because you never know what's gonna happen, right? But that's getting scrappy, getting out of your comfort zone and saying, "I will not stand for this. This is not right. I'm not gonna be a part of this. I'm going to address it. I'm going to honor who I am and what I am," and you take those actions, and I think often times a characteristic that's undervalued is you have to have courage. You have to have courage. If you are a person of color in the workplace, at some point you're gonna have to really get out of your comfort zone and be courageous, and do it even though it feels uncomfortable. Do it, and you'll be surprised by the results you get. And for me it was a game changer because not only was I able to make even more significant contributions to my organization and understand the work I did on diversity and inclusion was not my part--was not my job. I wasn't a diversity and inclusion person. It was kind of my side gig at the job, right? So if it's something you're passionate about, use your voice. And what I say to people all the time, Zach, is you can advocate where you are. You don't have to be in a senior leadership position to advocate, to make changes in the organization. You just need a voice and passion.Zach: Would you mind talking a little bit more about The Corporate Alley Cat and classes you all have around to encourage and build the confidence around networking and self-advocacy and things of this nature? And I ask that explicitly and ask you to plug that beyond the fact that it's a wonderful platform and you're here and we want you to talk about it, but also because, you know, when you talk about being courageous and you talk about, you know, us not having the history and background to really know these things, I just--that resonates so true with me, and I can tell you, Deborah, as someone who is a millennial and who is still, you know, a younger professional, that it's so--it's so common, even within our space, even as social media and--I would say that, you know, we're becoming a little bit more conscious about things in the world around us, even within the corporate space. There's still an overwhelming narrative of, "Look, just put your head down. Stack your coins. Don't say anything." So, you know, what resources would you point our listeners to when it comes to really building up these competencies and learning more about this?Deborah: Sure. And Zach, before I answer that question, can I go back to my story? Because there's two key points I want to make about my story. So I was able to resolve that situation, not on my own. So one of the things that I had to do was I had to reach out to people, and I had to say, "Listen, here's what's going on. I'm not sure how to handle this. I don't know if they're trying to fire me. I really don't know. I have no documentation. Nobody's talking to me. I don't even really know what's going on here." So the first thing I want to say is you've got to reach out to your community, and this is where your strategic networks come into play. When I tell you there were many people working behind the scenes in my situation to support me, I had at least two very, very strong advocates in leadership, and I had many more advocates in other positions, and more than the letter, that's probably what helped resolve my situation. Because people knew me. This narrative didn't fit. They supported me. They knew my performance record. So I want to encourage people to ask for help, and ask for help, as I always say, early and often. In the age of social media that you just mentioned, Zach, Instagram, Twitter, we're all putting on this facade at times that we want people to think we have it all together, right? And some of us are barely hanging on on the inside. Get rid of that shame. There is no shame in asking for help. The real tragedy is when people don't ask for help and they allow their careers to be derailed unnecessarily. So build your community, and I like to use the word community versus network because I believe as people of color, we are born into a community. This community wants to support your entire being. It's beyond what a lot of people think is networking and that transactional type of process, right? These are people who care for you, support you. These are people who are alums from your high school, your college, your church family, your close family, your friends, your friends' friends. I honestly believe that everybody has everybody they need already in their network if they would just reach out to them, but most people don't reach out. So that's the first thing I want to say, ask for help. And then secondly I want to say nobody does it by themselves. If you are spending time struggling to figure out something by yourself, you're wasting precious, valuable time and energy. Ask for help. There's always somebody who knows more than you and who can make it easier for you to navigate those situations. So build those strategic relationships, reach out to them when you need them, and ask for help. And don't be scared to rock the boat, because I say rocking the boat is a good thing. Because think about it, Zach. If you're in a boat, and you rock it, that's how you get momentum, right? If you don't--if you don't rock the boat, what happens?Zach: You're not going anywhere.Deborah: You're not going anywhere. So when people say to me, "Well, I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to ruin my career," often times one of the things I ask people--I'm like, "Well, it doesn't look like you have a career here."Zach: Come on, now. That's what I'm talking about. See? Come on now, Deborah. Yes. [laughs]Deborah: Like, what are you trying to--you know, they've already said this to you. They've already done this. You've already got a bad review. You don't have a career here. What little bit you have is about to go away, right? So that's really--I want people to get away from using that as an excuse to get out of their comfort zone. All right, enough. Enough. I'm getting off my soapbox, Zach.Zach: [laughing] No, this is good. Yeah, so where can people learn more about--where can people learn more about The Corporate Alley Cat? And where can people engage more with this content? This was a wonderful--been a wonderful dialogue. I want to make sure that people know where they can go.Deborah: So you can go CorporateAlleyCat.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn under Corporate Alley Cat. You can join our Professionals of Color Facebook group. We share a lot of good information there. It's on Facebook. Professionals of Color. We're on Instagram, CorporateAlleyCat, and on Twitter, CorpAlleyCat. In addition, on our website we have blogs, so you can get a lot of free information there. At least once a month, we have a free webinar with corporate leaders. So all people need to do is go to our website and sign up for that. We have courses. So we have two summits that are available for purchase. One is called the negotiation summit, and one is called the performance review summit. They both walk you through those processes. We also have career coaches that are available to help you, and I want to say this is really significant because the corporate coaches that we have available to you are people who have been very successful in their career, and they have led HR or employer relationships departments, and so they can give you the real strategy, right? So we approach it from "Let me tell you how the organization is gonna look at the situation." "Here's what the organization's gonna say, here's what they're gonna do, and then here's what you're gonna do." Often times, people don't have access to that strategy. They're just reacting, and what we do is we help people map out that strategy and how they execute it, which is invaluable. We also have a membership community, and we are opening it up for enrollment in September, and that's where you have access to all of our webinars, and that's over 30. You have access to many courses. You have access to our monthly Ask Me Anything form. You have have access to our resource library. So there's a lot of great information there, and I also do work with organizations, so if you are a corporation out there or you lead a corporation and you want to make sure that you are not just recruiting--'cause I think organizations spend so much time on recruiting they forget about retaining and developing that diverse pipeline. What are the things that your talent needs to know to be able to successfully navigate that corporate arena? And that's a win-win for everybody. So there are a lot of ways that you can reach out to us, and we have--we are planning a conference upcoming, so stay tuned for that. But it's not your traditional conference. It's actually gonna be called The Corporate Alley Cat Experience.Zach: When that is coming up to date, keep us in the loop, Deborah, and we'll make sure to let the folks know about that as well.Deborah: Yeah, and the other thing I want to say about our webinars is we do the webinars so people can expand their network. We bring in people that you normally wouldn't have this type of access to, and all of our folks are open to linking in with you. We have people who share their cell phone numbers, personal emails, right? These are people who truly want to support you, but you've got to ask for the help. You've got to allow yourself to be a little vulnerable sometimes.Zach: Absolutely, and Deborah, this has been a wonderful conversation. You know, we definitely want to have you back. Before we let you go, do you have any shout outs for us?Deborah: Absolutely. I always want to give a shout out to the Corporate Alley Cat community 'cause they are bar none the best. The best. They are scrappy. If you've ever gotten on our webinars, they are engaging. I want to shout out to our Corporate Alley Cat leaders and presenters because, listen, our webinars--Zach, have you ever been on one of our webinars?Zach: I've been on one webinar.Deborah: Okay, and I--if you've been on, you know they're not for the faint of heart.Zach: They're not. No, it's real talk.Deborah: We are real talk, and I always open it up by saying we treat you like family. We're gonna be honest with you. You might have your feelings hurt, but we are coming at it from a position of love, and we are vested in your success. So I want to give a shout out to--there are too many people to shout to who support The Corporate Alley Cat, 'cause no one does it alone, Zach. No one does it alone, and that's--if I could leave any parting message that's what it would be, is nobody does it alone, you don't have to be alone, and that there is a community out there that wants to support you and help you achieve your career goals, whatever they may be.Zach: Amen. Deborah, thank you so much for joining us today. Again, your words, your passion, your energy around this are more than encouraging and invigorating. They've definitely encouraged me, even in this conversation, and I know that they're gonna be definitely a blessing to everyone who hears it. So thank you again for your time. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back.Deborah: All right, Zach. Stay scrappy.Zach: Absolutely. I'ma stay scrappy. [laughs] You too. Peace.Deborah: [laughing] All right, thank you.Ade: And we're back. I loved that interview, and I am excited to join the Corporate Alley Cat community and check out one of those chats.Zach: Yeah, I've checked it out a few times, and I've enjoyed them every time.Ade: So let me ask you this. What did you take away most from y'all's discussion?Zach: Honestly, I took away that your career is what you make of it, right? So to Deborah's language, we gotta stay scrappy. It doesn't mean that it's some combative, negative, or violently confrontational thing. In fact, you know, it reminds me of the conversation we had earlier this season with DeRay. He was talking about his book, but we were also talking about how you push up against these systems, and he was saying, "Look, everything doesn't have to be so negative," right? But it is about being direct and demonstrating courage. So how did you feel about it?Ade: Very similarly, to be honest. At one point I felt quite attacked, to be frank with you. She was talking about people she was coaching and that they'd say, "Well, I'm gonna hurt my career," and she'd reply with, "Well, sis, you don't have a career here," and I felt dragged. I felt persecuted, frankly.Zach: [laughing] She was knocking on your door?Ade: What? She had kicked my door in, slammed some receipts on my--on my table. You know that Iyanla gif? "Not on my watch." That was precisely what she was doing. [laughs]Zach: Not on my watch. [inaudible] She was shaking your table?Ade: And I was sitting right on the table too. Like, the table she was shaking had my whole career on top of it. So yeah, I really appreciated the approach that she was taking 'cause it was very, very relatable.Zach: You know what? Sound Man, go ahead and drop one of those flex bombs for that, because when she said--when she said you don't have a career? Boom.[Sound Man drops the bomb]Ade: Wow. [laughs] Wow, really?Zach: I literally--in my mind I was like, "Wow, this is, like, one of those [makes boom]." Like, goodness gracious.Ade: Yeah, yeah. It also reminded me of that famous quote from Alice Walker. "The common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." And for the record, we're not victim blaming here. We're never about that. What we are saying is that we are in the business of pushing up against systems, spaces, and cultures that were not created with us in mind, and that means that sometimes you have to be willing to advocate for yourself. And yes, it's uncomfortable, and yes, it's absolutely challenging, but like you said, your career is what you make of it.Zach: For sure, and we'll make sure to have info in the podcast for everyone who has access to learn more about Corporate Alley Cat.Ade: Beautiful. Well, yeah. Awesome. Cool beans. Up next, we're gonna get into our Favorite Things. Hope you guys enjoy the segment.Zach: So my favorite thing right now is Marc Lamont Hill's book "Nobody: Casualties of America's War on the Vulnerable, from Ferguson, Flint, and Beyond." It's a powerful, gripping read, and it pairs analysis of the stories we see on the news with emotional authenticity. It's been out for some months, but I still really enjoy it.Ade: Awesome. Continuing in that amazing literary tradition that we've set, my favorite thing right now is--actually I have two. One's gonna be fun and one's gonna be more scholarly. My scholarly one is--it's called "Just Mercy" by Bryan Stevenson. It's a book about the American criminal justice system, and anyone who knows me knows that I have a thing for the idea of grace, and it was right in line with, you know, just the conversation about how there is such a dearth of it in the American criminal justice system. So if you're ever interested in picking up a book--it's heavy sometimes, but I recommend that everyone reads it. My second thing--it's a little bit lighter. My favorite thing this week is a purple bag of Doritos. Sweet Spicy Chili. Try it out. You will not be disappointed. I love me some Doritos. [laughs]Zach: Absolutely. Well, shout out to the book recommendation, and also shout out to Doritos. This is not a paid ad. Ade just likes to eat.Ade: Okay. Well, sir, don't we all? [laughs]Zach: Right? We've gotta survive. [laughs]Ade: That felt--that felt a little bit like an attack. [laughs] But yes, they're quite delicious.Zach: Well, dope. Thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this b-side, we sent down with lawyer, activist, writer and civic leader Preston Mitchum about living authentically and intentionally.Length: 37:59Host: Zach#Pride #LGBTQ #BlackLivesMatterPreston's Website: prestonmitchum.com/Preston on Twitter: twitter.com/PrestonMitchumPreston on IG: instagram.com/preston.mitchum/?hl=enTRANSCRIPTZach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you’re listening to a B-Side now. Yes, we introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but every episode is someone’s first episode. So for the new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit--that’s right, more lit--than our normal shows. Now, y’all might ask me what do I mean by more lit? Sound Man, give me something.[Sound Man plays Jamaican air horns]Zach: You see that right there? That’s what I’m talking about. Now, listen. Often times more than not we have a special guest, and today is no different. We actually have with us today Preston Mitchum. Preston is the international policy analyst at Advocates for Youth where he advocates for the sexual and reproductive health and rights for young people and U.S. foreign policy. He’s also an adjunct professor at Georgetown University Law Center, teaching LGBT health, law, and policy. Preston currently serves as the first openly gay male chair of the Washington Bar Association Young Lawyers division the Black Youth Project DC Chapter, and he’s written for theGrio, The Atlantic, Huffington Post, Ebony, Africa.com and plenty more. Preston, welcome to the show, man.Preston: Hey, thank you for the invite. I cannot wait for this conversation.Zach: [laughs] That’s awesome, man. Now, look, I gave the intro, but please, tell us about yourself.Preston: You know, so I often describe myself as an unapologetically black queer activist and advocate hailing from Youngstown, Ohio, but currently I’ve been living in the D.C., Maryland area for the past seven years, and I love black people. So that’s everything to know about me.Zach: That’s awesome. Now, look, when I look at your profile, right, and I look at your Instagram, and I just--I look from afar, and it just seems like there’s so much there. Can you talk to me about how you got into law? Like, was it spurred by your passion around social justice? Was it a money move? Was it both? Like, talk to me about that.Preston: You know, I wish it was money. I wish. For everything that I really wanted to do to become a lawyer, I wish money was really involved in that decision ‘cause I would probably be a little bit happier. My bills would be paid a lot faster. I wouldn’t be waiting ‘til the 5th of the month to finally make that rent payment.Zach: [laughs]Preston: But all that being said, for me I’m a social justice activist to my core. Something that really matters to me, again, are black folks, are queer and trans folks, are women of color, specifically black women, and so I think for me, like, when I saw how law was framed, how the legal landscape was framed, the one thing that I really wanted to do of course, even as a lawyer, was to change the law, right, and have this (inaudible) in the background to change the lives of black folks, but what really mattered to me was policy, right? And so that was really getting in front of the law before the law came into place, because when you’re a lawyer and you’re defending people, of course, like, litigation is life-changing for many people, particularly--like, people like criminal defense attorneys, but what really mattered to me the more I thought about it was what can happen before a defendant reaches the courtroom. What policy can be designed and created and lobbied for in a way that actually changes peoples’ lives before it goes into effect, and so for me that was really important when it came to, again, the legal and policy landscape, and frankly I have a passion for marginalized communities, you know, especially rape survivors of which I am one. I’ve talked about my personal experience with rape and sexual assault, mostly on theroot.com. So, you know, my passion began for rape survivors, you know, thinking about rape culture. Later in life obviously thinking about our childhood heroes, you know, become villains. So people like Bill Cosby and R. Kelly and thinking through the ways in which, you know, we have been told that we have to defend these people because they allegedly love us, but we often times saw that love turn into pain for many people, particularly marginalized black women and girls. So, you know, in a nutshell for me what was really important was to defend the civil rights and liberties of black folks and queer folks and of other marginalized communities who are kind of pushed to the margins every single day, and that’s how I got into law.Zach: Wow, man. That’s amazing. And, you know, your profile--and even when you talk about your story, right, the main things I get from you, like, just from a vibe perspective is authenticity and intentionality, right? I believe that, you know, everyone should seek to live as authentically as possible every day, and clearly from just your mission and your passion, your purpose in life, I would say that you agree with that. Can you talk to me though about your journey and living authentically and what rewards and challenges you’ve had from that?Preston: So I appreciate you even saying that because something that I always speak about is the purpose of living as an authentic person and living with intention, right? It’s funny, I was talking to someone the other day, and I told them that I didn’t think I was breathing, and they were like, “Well, you’re living. Of course you’re breathing.” I was like, “Yeah, I actually don’t feel my stomach moving though.”Zach: Hm.Preston: And I think that’s--so I knew I wasn’t breathing intentionally. I was breathing because I have to live, but I wasn’t breathing with a purpose, and so…Zach: It was cruise control.Preston: Yeah, exactly. Right, I was like, “Oh, I’m breathing because I need to eat and I need to drink water and I need to live to see another day,” but you know, but I was learning from folks, especially, like, black folks. Like, older black people. They’re like, “Are you breathing on purpose? Feel your belly. Can you actively and actually feel your belly going in and out, up and down?” And so I kind of wanted to use that to model really how I’m living my everyday life, and so there some rewards and there are some challenges, and so the rewards is, you know, people recognizing my authenticity and my intentionality. The challenges are people recognizing my authenticity and intentionality [laughs], and I think, you know, when we live authentically, everything is not great. Everything is not gold. When you live authentically, you are subjecting yourself to be more vulnerable to harm. For queer and trans folks, for black folks who are in white areas, for queer and trans folks who are in straight-dominated areas, your authenticity can get you killed. And so I think from--and you know what, I think we see that every day, you know? Something that really is exciting me has been this new show on FX called Pose.Zach: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Preston: And it is--I have many friends in the house and ball communities, and it is such a brilliant depiction, and it’s so incredibly nuanced of what I would like to consider at least black and brown trans women nurturing queer or gay boys, black and brown gay boys, to life. And so, you know, those are trans women who are putting themselves on the front lines every single day, who are, you know, creating new communities for them to thrive in because in the communities that they exist in, which are these straight, cis-dominated spaces, they are by and large targeted, and so for me it’s like, “What does that look like? What does it look like to exist in spaces that are mainstream, that I know I’m not gonna be accepted in, and to create these alternative spaces where I can actually be affirmed on a daily basis?” So, you know, again, those are challenges, and I will say part of those challenges particularly, you know, as being the first openly gay chair of the Washington Bar Association Young Lawyers division is that in the legal profession and also in the black legal profession is really big on respectability politics. So people usually are catapulted to be successful because they have somehow created this environment for themselves that are very white-accepting. I have never cared in my professional life to be accepted by the white community, right? Like, that’s just not my thing. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] So wait--so wait, wait wait. So I’m actually really--so I was already excited, now I’m extra excited, right? So for our listeners, right, break down respectability politics, especially from the position of an activist and, like, all of the things that you drive. Like, if there was someone here who’s listening to this who’s like, “What is respectability politics like?” Give us the Preston definition of respectability politics.Preston: Okay. All right, so Preston? So a very blunt definition. So--no, so respectability politics, or the politics of respectability, is quite frankly the notion that you--everything you do, your existence, your actions, your behaviors are for white people, and so for white people who are generally accepted who dominate--I shouldn’t say culture, right, ‘cause that’s certainly not true. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Right.Preston: But who dominates certain things like business, law, policy, et cetera. So, you know, there’s this idea for example that now, you know, if black boys and black men only dressed up in suits and ties they would be accepted by white people, right? As if the reason why black boys are being killed on the streets, or black women also being killed on the streets, is because they don’t look a certain way. Mind you, you know, folks like Martin Luther King were clearly gunned down by FBI agents.Zach: Right.Preston: Mind you, black and brown folks were being, you know, sprayed with fire hoses in the 1950s, since antiquity frankly, but continuing up until now, right? Like, the fire hoses just look like bullets now. So, you know, the thing that we always have to remind people is, you know, live authentically and intentionally because it’s not like respectability politics is the reason why you are disliked, why you are relegated. It reminds me of when I do lobb--I lobby a lot for my job, so it reminds me of when I go to the Hill, and, you know, sometimes I’ll wear a suit and tie, sometimes I won’t. Frankly it really depends on how I feel on that day and if my eyebrows look good. And so--Zach: Listen. Wait, wait, wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. In all seriousness--wait, wait wait. ‘Cause your eyebrows on your website? Impeccable.Preston: Thank you. To your viewers, I need them to go and see my eyebrows because I really appreciate my eyebrow lady Kim in Silver Spring, Maryland at (inaudible). [laughs]Zach: Now, are they--is it--now, this is my question. Are they--is it threaded? Or is it--like, ‘cause they look great.Preston: You know, I appreciate that. They’re actually waxed, and so I’m afraid that the more I do it I’m not gonna have anymore. I’ma be looking like Whoopi Goldberg, but hopefully that’s not--sorry, Whoopi. My bad.Zach: No disrespect to Whoopi Goldberg just in case you ever come on the show. (inaudible).Preston: I mean, she practices respectability politics sometimes too, so I hope she comes on the show so we can talk about that.Zach: [laughs] Yes. Let’s go, man. Hey, let the cannons (inaudible) for that. We callin’ you out, Whoopi Goldberg. We got beef with you. [laughs]Preston: [laughs] Right. I mean, you know, I’m pretty sure that Ted Danson and others would agree, but nonetheless. Nonetheless. No, so yes, I go to the Hill a lot. Part of my job is lobbying on behalf of young people and their sexuality and reproductive health and rights, and, you know, again, sometimes I come in a suit, sometimes I do not, and the criticism I’ve received from some of my partners within coalition spaces are that, you know, they immediately shut down the conversation the second I may walk into an office. Mind you, we’re going to Capitol Hill. Mind you, Capitol Hill’s predominantly white. Mind you, Capitol Hill’s predominantly straight. So they’re shutting down the conversation because my entire body as a black gay man just came into their office, not because of, you know, me not wearing a suit and a tie, and they’re certainly not gonna listen faster just because I wear a suit and a tie.Zach: Right.Preston: On top of that, I’m advocating on behalf of marginalized communities’ rights. So I’m advocating on behalf of abortion access, on behalf of comprehensive sexuality education that’s queer-affirming, advocating on behalf of things like pre-exposure prophylaxis and HIV prevention and treatment. So the conversation is shutting down just because we already don’t agree philosophically, and so I always have to tell people like, “Yes, it may make us feel better to pretend as though white people are going to accept us just because we are, you know, acquiescing to whatever they deem as acceptable, but that’s just simply not true, and I personally in my professional career have refused to do that for the sake of appeasing to a mainstream audience. Now, all of that being said, I think for me, I’ve decided to personally do that, and that is, you know, that’s--again, that’s word I’ve received because people were like, “You are very bold, and I appreciate you for knowing who you are and staying true to that,” and then the challenges sometimes can be, “Okay, I know the space I’m entering. I already know how I’m coming into, you know, this particular space that may or may not be safe and affirming.” So how do I navigate that accordingly? And I think that’s the conversations that I have to have every day and I’m sure that many of your viewers have to have every day too.Zach: Straight up, yeah. So that actually leads me to my next question. So you’ve done a masterful job of combining your passions around people, particularly the most unheard in our culture and in our country, in our world, in your profession. How were you able to do that, and would you consider that a situation where you’ve, like, arrived? Or is that something you have to really fight to maintain?Preston: Hm. So, you know, I would say what’s really helped me in these situations honestly have been mentors and people who I’ve networked with, really tight-knit circles and people who support me. I think without mentorships and networking it’s really impossible to--sure, you can live authentically, but I think when you’re pushed into the wall you really still need people to support you and lift you along the way, and I think sometimes that’s what’s difficult about being black and queer and trans when you’re not in spaces like D.C. or Atlanta. I mean, it’s hard still even in these spaces, but spaces like D.C., New York, Atlanta, places that presumed to be more accepting which sometimes are not. You know, if you’re in the rural south, right, how can you get mentors and networking from folks who are, you know, black, queer, and trans who are older, who are viewed as more successful? I will say personally, right, like, I don’t think I can turn on a TV many times and see two black men, two black, same gender-loving men being intimate. You know, I saw it recently. I saw it last week when I watched Pose, and I was shocked because that’s just not something that happens, you know? And I think that’s the thing, like, we have to really kind of come to terms with, right? Like Marlon Riggs one time said, “Black men loving each other is a revolutionary act,” and I think for me I recognize that, and I’m always humbled by my mentors and my networking opportunities. So that’s that. I think it’s really--I fight to maintain it every single day, and sometimes it’s easier than at other times, right? Because I think these mentors who I’ve networked with and who I’ve built loving and affirming relationships with, they will always support me, but I’m still battling a mainstream community who may not, and so, you know, thankfully--and I’m only 32, but thankfully I’ve created this kind of forcefield within myself that I know who to listen to, who to block out voices. It reminds me sometimes of when my friends would read comments after I’ve written articles, and they’ll text me like, “I am so angry what so-and-so said!” I was like, “Who are they?” Right? ‘Cause I’ve learned to just not check them out, and I’ve learned--and it just doesn’t bother me. Unless I feel like being shady on Twitter, chances are I’m not gonna respond to someone negatively responding to me ‘cause it just--I don’t even really realize it frankly, and I think--but I still think you fight to maintain that. You know, being black and queer isn’t easy, you know? Every day we walk around, even within all of our glory and our joy, we have to try to be resilient, and you know what? I think I’ve realized that I’m tired of being resilient. Resilience is a burden. It makes you literally--it puts you on this kind of pedestal if you are resilient and if your black joy shines brighter than others, but what about when people just are depressed and they want to be depressed? Are we turning our back on them because they’re not showing that they’re resilient anymore? And so for me, I’m gonna always fight to maintain it, and some of those days are gonna be better than others. I’m gonna shine. Shine, black boy, shine one day, and the next day I’m gonna be like, “I’m not getting out of this bed. Please bring the nearest bottle of Jack or Hennessy to me,” and that’s just what it’s gonna be, you know? But I do think that what’s really important is for us to kind of really think through queer and trans folks, LGBTQ folks, you know, who battle with ourselves internally every day because of social antagonism, we battle, you know, with white LGBTQ people because many white LGBTQ people--I won’t say many--some white LGBTQ people are racist and refuse to check that racism because, you know, we’re marginalized too, and it’s like, “Your marginalization looks very different.” It’s different, and it’s not layered often times, right? Like, you know, the one thing that I have to share with white people who say, “Well, you know, I grew up poor,” and I was like, “You didn’t grow up poor because you were white though, right?” Like, you can still experience hardships, but your hardships will never be connected to your whiteness. Black and brown folks and other racial minorities can never say that because we know our racial identity is always gonna be cross-connected with another oppression or marginalization that we’re experiencing, and so I think we just always have to kind of put those into play and realize, you know, the battles that we have, internally because of society, with white LGBTQ folks because of racism, and with the black folks because--straight black folks because of homophobia and transphobia, and biphobia frankly. We can’t leave out bisexuality and what that means for a lot of people. So yeah, so, again, you know, mentors helped me. They will always be there along the way. They push and support me, and in turn I give back to younger folks because, you know, without my mentors and without my close friends and my family I wouldn’t know where I would be, and I would also still have to fight to maintain that every day, and I’m fighting to maintain this authenticity and intentionality because without that I’m nothing.Zach: So, you know, in 2013 you wrote a piece in The Atlantic about coming out as a gay man, and you really tackled the nuances of that decision. Taking a step back, right, as a cis-hetero black man--that’s me, right--I think it’s easy for me to default and kind of just ignore the various identities within, like, just the diaspora, right, within our black space, and I think that speaks to a certain level of privilege. I think that’s pretty obvious. What advice if any do you have for, like, cis-hetero black men who are at the top of their own privilege pyramid of sorts and how they can be mindful, supportive allies?Preston: Yeah. So since this is a conversation I’ma talk to you like I’m a Baptist preacher.Zach: Let’s go. [laughs]Preston: So let me ask you. If your homies, if your straight homies say anything that could be perceived as derogatory about LGBTQ folks, do you think that you would be kind of confident enough in your masculinity and your sexuality to say, “Yo, that’s not cool. Don’t say that.”Zach: That’s a great question actually ‘cause I have these conversations, right? And so--and you mentioned a point about being a Baptist preacher, so we actually have--we actually have a guest that’s gonna be on the show by the time of this recording in a week. Her name is Janet Pope, and she is the leader of diversity and inclusion for Capgemini, which is, like, this global consulting firm, right?Preston: Nice.Zach: She’s actually a colleague of mine ‘cause we both work at the same firm, and so I was telling her about Living Corporate, right? And she was like--she was like, “So you say that you’re gonna include gay people in your discussion around underrepresented communities. How do you align that with your Christianity?” And I was like, “Well, let’s just say for argument’s sake like I believe exactly what the Bible says.” Let’s say that. Let’s (inaudible) what the Bible says. At the end of the day, like, everybody that I see around me are human beings, so if I sit back and I ignore somebody, right, if I ignore somebody or if I try to limit their voice, one I’m practicing the same type of oppression--I’m practicing a cheap form of the same oppression that I complain about, and on top of that you kind of--you actually rob people of their humanity when you ignore them, when you dismiss them, when you downgrade them, right? And so those are the kind of conversations I have with my friends. Thankfully, you know, but I definitely have had other discussions with people where it’s been like--I’ve been like, “Listen, this--like, nah, that’s wack,” or “No, you shouldn’t say that,” or whatever the case is or da-da-da-da. Like, let them live their life. That guy ain’t doing nothing to you. Keep it to yourself.” Whatever, whatever, and, like, those don’t always go well, right? It’s not every--like, I’m 28 years old, so, like, yes, like, I’m starting to get to the age where we’re having these nuanced, comfortable discussions, but man, three, four years ago, four or five years ago, you try to say something like that? Nah, man. It was--it was not like that, but, you know, as you get older--I know you get it. Like you said, you’re in your early 30s. Relationships change, and it’s kind of like, “Okay, I’m gonna let you have it, but you’re gonna have to back up talking to me like that or talking around me like that because I’ma check you every time.”Preston: Yeah. See, and I--oh, go ahead.Zach: Last thing is, like, I’m also really passionate about it beyond the fact that, like, what I said before, like, just recognizing and respecting the humanity of everybody, everybody around you, ‘cause they’re human beings. You know, I have gay family members. I have gay friends. So, like, it’s personal to me as well, you know what I’m saying?Preston: Yeah. See, and I really appreciate all of that because the one thing that I will say is that, you know, it actually reminds me sometimes, I mean similar when I hear--when I talk to black men, and this is not just exclusive to black men but, you know, I am one so that’s--you know, that’s what I know.Zach: Yes. [laughs]Preston: And it’s interesting talking to some black men, gay or straight, because something I’ve really noticed is when this conversation comes up when it comes to respect of women, you know, they’re like, “Yeah, I would quickly say something,” but then turn around and make a sexist comment, whether it’s covert or overt or won’t say anything to their friends when they make a sexist comment or a comment around, you know, the way a woman looks or, you know, her body parts, right? And I’m just like, “I know that seems normal, right, because we’re so used to sexualizing women in a culture that promotes rape culture and perpetuates rape culture, but that’s not okay, and that’s also problematic, right?” And so, you know, I think when it comes to--when I think about what straight men can do, what black straight men can do, always think about a couple of things, and I think one of them is certainly, like, when you really hear your homies making comments is to always, you know, be willing to say something, right? Whether it makes you look like you’re emasculated, whether it makes your friends question your sexuality, right? You need to be in solidarity, and I think being in solidarity sometimes is risking, you know, those things like the safehood of your masculinity, the safeness of your sexuality. I think, you know, that is what being an ally looks like. You know, I remember a couple of years ago we were having a protest for BYP100, and it was--you know, we were protesting for violence against trans women, black trans women, and this straight--presumably straight black man outside, who we were like, “Okay, we’re protesting on behalf of black people. Like, maybe, hopefully you should join us.” Quickly, you know, identified in my opinion as a white supremacist. He literally looked like what I imagine white supremacists to look like when they’re yelling at black people in the 60s.Zach: Goodness. Goodness gracious.Preston: You know, he got in front of one of my comrades who was a woman and started to yell at her because she’s more masculine-presenting and, you know, made comments like, you know, “If you want to be a man,” you know, insert words here.Zach: Goodness gracious.Preston: And so because I am a man I decided to intervene, right? Like that man probably would’ve threw me all around, right? But at the end of the day what allyship to women looks like to me is putting myself in harm’s way so you won’t be hit, right? Like, and I think sometimes we have to really analyze what allyship looks like for us because if people aren’t even willing to speak up when they see harm being done, they’re certainly not willing to, like, take a punch because of it, right? And I’m not saying that everything that happens you have to put yourself in harm’s way, but it was disappointing that other--that straight men out there saw this presumably straight man pretty much attacking a woman and didn’t say anything about it, and then you have to take my queer self with my tight jeans protesting outside to say something to this man, right?Zach: [laughs] Right, right.P And to me, now I’m really interrogating what manhood looks like, right? If I’m willing to throw some hands and you’re not. So I think that’s something that really troubles me, and so, you know, I think it’s also important that straight men actually admit that they have a gay friend. It’s amazing how many things that I see on social media posts, like memes, such as “Is it normal for a straight man to have a gay man best friend?” And I’m just like, “Why is this silly meme real?” Right?Zach: Right? [laughs] Right.Preston: Like, why are we even questioning this? I’m like--I didn’t literally--like, friendships are not necessarily built upon someone’s sexuality. Now, certainly there is some nuance to that because, you know, before I moved to D.C. I didn’t have many gay friends. I had some. You know, I grew up in Ohio and in North Carolina, which we existed clearly there too, but the numbers weren’t as numerous as here. And a lot of my friendships shifted to more of my LGBTQ friends because that’s the community I felt safer in. They went to the same places I wanted to go to. But I think for--you know, but obviously I still have straight black male friends, and I think, you know, the conversations came up where, you know, I would always go to every single straight bar that you could think of with them. I’m like, “Oh, God.” I’m like, “Y’all want to go to The Park AGAIN?” Like, yeah, I’ma go eat some jerk.Zach: [laughs] People love Park out there.Preston: Right? I’m like, “Fine, I’m gonna go eat some jerk, wings, and mac and cheese for $5 with a side of Crown, but also where the gay people at? ‘Cause I don’t wanna be here all night.”Zach: Straight up, though.Preston: Right? But then I would ask them like, “Yo, I’m going to this gay party. Black folks, you wanna go with me?” They’re like, “Uh, that ain’t my thing,” and I’m like, “Well, straight? That ain’t my thing either and I’m still here!”Zach: [laughs]Preston: And so I challenged their friendship because I’m just like, you know, you being the person who is centered in this space expect me, as your gay friend, knowing I’m gay, knowing I may not--Zach: To make yourself comfortable.Preston: Exactly. Like, you told me to come here with you, and I did because we’re friends, and I’ma still have a good time because we’re friends, but the second, you know, I tell you to come to a gay club, everything is gay now. Everything is about gayness. It’s not about me being a friend and you supporting your friend at a bar or a club. So, you know, again, I think that’s another thing that straight black men or, you know, straight black allies generally can do is really, you know, admit to having a gay friend, actually going once or twice to a club. Like, right? Get out of your comfort level. One of my fraternity brothers went to the bar with me, and it was amazing how--he’s straight, and it’s amazing how he said to me like, you know, “Yeah, I wasn’t comfortable a little bit, I can’t even lie.” He was like, “But, you know, when somebody tried to hit on me, I basically was just like “I’m straight,” and he left me alone.” And I’m like, “Well, what did you think was gonna happen? I know what you thought. What you thought was gonna happen was the thing that y’all do to straight women, is that y’all keep attacking them even when they tell you no, and y’all assume that all women at any place are straight as if lesbian women don’t exist. So I’m like, you know, “Just because you can’t take no for an answer does not mean that thing is reciprocated in our community.” Now, to be fair, it’s not always--Zach: [laughs] Preston got these bars for you, dog. He don’t care, boy. He let the yopper spray. My goodness. Keep going, though. [laughs]Preston: [laughs] But I can talk all the time about this issue because I think straight black men specifically in this conversation have to be better allies and have to figure out, you know, what allyship looks like, what speaking up on behalf of LGBTQ folk looks like, what, you know, sometimes putting yourself in harm’s way, though that shouldn’t be the case, and actually, you know, listening and acting as opposed to just speaking. Not for political gain, not to get the woman you like or the girl you like, but to just be a good ally to be in solidarity with people. So there’s a litany of things that I can continue saying, but it’s just really important that, you know--and I guess I’ll end on this note on saying that, you know, straight--to be good allies, heterosexual people really have to think through what it looks like to demand people to come out. I’ve had so many conversations with people over the years that said something like, “I would respect them if only they were openly gay like you,” and I’m like, “I shouldn’t get any accolades for being openly gay.” I’m in a position where, quite frankly, I pay my bills, I support myself. I’m okay with whatever consequences come my way as a result of me being openly gay. There are many people who cannot afford that. There are many people who can experience homelessness because of being kicked out of homes. There are many people who are exposed to violence every day because of it, and so I think we have to really start having these honest, raw conversations about what it looks like and the harm that people are experiencing when someone says, “I would respect them more if only they were gay like you.”Zach: Man, that’s profound, though, and I really appreciate you sharing this. I have, like, two more questions, right? So are there any resources you’d like to point the audience to on how to just learn how to be a better ally for the LGBTQ community?Preston: You know, I think the best resources frankly are everyday interactions with people, you know? ‘Cause I don’t really think you can--I mean, certainly you can Google and read up how to be an ally, but I would truly like to believe that we have enough common sense to understand what allyship looks like. I think the problem is that folks, many--in my honest opinion, many people don’t want equality. They want the ability to oppress other people, right? Like, we like to feel--as much as we try to push against whiteness, we like the ability to be white in many instances, right? And so I think, like, you know, we still have this totem pole, and we’re all trying to not be at the bottom of that totem pole, and so whenever I hear white people say, “Well, Preston, I didn’t know I couldn’t say the N word,” I’m like, “You’re--okay, you’re lying.” Right? Like, you know you shouldn’t have said that. You know you shouldn’t have alluded to it. You know you should’ve skipped over it in every rap song, but now you’re being decentered and you don’t like that feeling. You know what you should or should not do or should or should not say, you know? Straight black men know they should not be homophobic, right? And I will say obviously we can talk about, you know, Judeo-Christian, being Judeo-Christian, we can talk about fundamentalist Christians, we can talk about, you know, traditionalist principles and understandings, and that’s an important conversation to have, but we also have to peel back layers of why we think what we think, right? And why we’re pushing our thought process on other people when we haven’t even really interrogated why we think how we think. You know, many people--we’re just living and existing every day going through the motions based off of what we were told as children, not even questioning why we were told certain things. Growing up, my mom used to always be so frustrated with me ‘cause she’d always be like, “Why do you ask so many questions?” I’m like, “I love you. I know you are never going to harm me, at least intentionally, but I need to know why.” Right? And saying I said so is not an answer. Like, that’s not how youth development works, and I say the same thing for people, like, that’s not how adult development works either. We have to interrogate and question certain things, and I know that’s going a little bit off your question, but it’s only because, you know, right, like, I think resources are such an important thing in question, but I think the only way we can really, you know, truly get to the true resource, and that’s everyday interactions with folks who we want to learn from, right? And be willing, be willing to sometimes be cussed out to get to an answer we want.Zach: [laughs]Preston: I would like to believe I’m a good ally to trans people, right? I could be completely mistaken, right, ‘cause I’m not trans, and of course I would say I’m a good ally, but I know for me to even become a--for me to have been an OK ally, for me to get here, I had to be cussed out by many trans women for saying the wrong thing, for looking the wrong way, for staring too long at something, right? Like, that was--that was where I existed, you know, some years ago. I think over time the more I started to learn and genuinely be friends with trans folks, right? Like, not transactionally, genuinely be friends with trans folks is when I started to become a better ally. So we have to put ourselves in community with people if they believe, right, if that community believes that they can be safe and affirmed with your presence, ‘cause sometimes the sheer presence of someone is oppressive, and that’s why I always talk about safe spaces. That’s why I always talk about black-dominated spaces and black-only spaces, because sometimes the sheer existence of white people is exhausting, right? Because something will come up. It makes me think about this episode of Dear White People when, like, you know, they went to, you know, a party in Season One, you know, and they’re dancing and having a good time, and I forget what song came on, but of course it was a rap song, and the N word--you know, and somebody said the N word, and I’m just like, “Ugh, of course,” because when white people are around, you can absolutely guarantee it’s gonna be said once by them, right? And that’s exhausting, right? It’s laborious to have to tell someone like, “Can you not---can you not do that?” Like, “It’s Sunday. I’m trying to have a good day. I just prayed earlier,” right?Zach: [laughs]Preston: I think stuff like that is exhausting. So all that being said, the best resource is talking to people who are living these experiences.Zach: No, that’s awesome. [laughs] Look, this has been--this has been a great discussion, and, like, to be honest, before we, you know, started recording and everything, I was talking to the team and I was like, “Man, I already know this conversation’s gonna be lit. I can’t wait,” and I’ma be honest with you, Preston, you ain’t let me down at all, not that it should matter.Preston: I appreciate that.Zach: Not that my--not that my standards should matter for you at all, but I’m just letting you know I’ve had a great time. I want to thank you for coming to the show again. Before we go, do you have any shout outs? Do you have anyone you’re working with? Any other projects you want to talk about? Anything at all?Preston: Yes! I would love to shout out our youth activists at Advocates for Youth. We work with about 130 young people throughout the country, many of who are black and brown and queer and trans, and they’re every day working on projects and campaigns related to HIV decriminalization, abortion access and destigmatization. They’re working on--our Young Women of Color Leadership Initiative are working on, like, prison reform issues and issues of criminalization of black girls in schools. Our Muslim Youth Leadership project are literally existing between the identities of being Muslim and queer and trans and are building out platforms and policies on that. Our International Youth Leadership Council are pushing against the Trump administration (and?) the Global Gag Rule. I could continue, but our young people--young people are the most lit people and will literally build a liberation and a new movement that looks like freedom every single day, and so I really want shout out young people at Advocates for Youth and really young people all over the country, especially black and brown young people. You know, your viewers can definitely follow me on Twitter @PrestonMitchum or on Instagram @Preston.Mitchum. I’m really excited. I’m working on a lot of writing projects to come soon, but, you know, I’m really working on a portfolio on sexual and reproductive health and rights, and the last thing that I’ll say, what’s really important is to decriminalize sex work. Something that we’re working on in D.C. is part of the Sex Workers Advocates Coalition, Collective Action for Safe Spaces, BYP100, and HIPS D.C. is--you know, we helped with council member Grosso and council member Robert White on introducing a sex work decriminalization bill. We’re attempting to get it pushed forward, so we’re needing a particular council member, Charles Allen, to move it to the public health and judiciary committee, and so that’s something that’s really important is really thinking about how sex work decriminalization is an LGBTQ issue and ironically enough how people claim to dislike sex workers but masturbate to porn every single morning. And because of that, I’ll leave off here--I’ll leave it off here, but decriminalize sex work, and thank you for the invitation. It’s been amazing.Zach: [laughs] Man. First of all, again--I keep saying first of all ‘cause I’m just taken aback every single time, but Preston-- [laughs]Preston: [laughs]Zach: So Preston, man. Look, man. As your books drop, as you continue doing what you’re doing, I hope you consider yourself a friend of the show. You’re welcome back any time, and let’s make sure--like I said as you have your things going on, let us know so we can plug ‘em for you.Preston: Absolutely, Zach. This has been so lit, and I really appreciate being here.Zach: Man, thank you so much. Okay, y’all. Well, listen, that about does us here. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it. This has been Zach. You were talking to Preston Mitchum. Peace.Latricia: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, Zach and Latricia discuss effective salary negotiation strategies with experienced Walker Elliot senior recruiter Kyle Mosley. Length: 00:39:55Hosts: Latricia | ZachTRANSCRIPTLatricia: Federal Reserve research shows that Black workers earn less than their white counterparts in a worsening trend that holds even after accounting for differences in age, education, job type and geography.In 1979, the average black man in America earned 80 percent as much per hour as the average white man. By 2016, that shortfall had worsened to 70 percent, according to research from the San Francisco Federal Reserve, which found the divide had also widened for black women.The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (that's 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056. The excerpts I read from Bloomberg and NBC respectively speak to historical inequity that people of color face when it comes to equal pay in the workplace. Considering the nation’s history, this itself should not be a surprise, however the question is what if anything can we do as non-white men do to tip the scales in our favor? This is Latricia. And you’re listening to Living Corporate.Latricia: So, today we’re talking about effective salary negotiation and career management strategies.Zach This is a great topic and I’m glad we’re discussing it. The data you shared at the top of the show was… I’ma be honest, it was like really depressing - BUT it points to the reality of where we are and we can’t move forward without being honest about where we’re starting.Latricia: Right. It is frustrating to see the data and it’s reminder that racial inequity goes beyond the typical talking points that aren’t often explored and understood.Zach: Right. Latricia: I mean, let me read this again-“The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (which is 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056.”Zach: That. is. Crazy. And I know this show is about salary negotiation and career management, but that particular point from those articles reminds me of conversations you and I have had around how so many companies promote Diversity & Inclusion but don’t actually discuss anything beyond gender representation.Latricia: Right we just talked about that - so this is a great example of how that binary view is so problematic. From looking at the analysis from the Institute for Women’s Policy Research and again be reminded that all women aren’t treated equally, having that intersection of race and gender matters if we’re going to have completely authentic conversation around these issues.Zach: Man, I completely agree. So with that in mind, let’s talk about salary negotiation. I think this is a great topic because I’ll speak for my own experiences and what I’ve observed, I feel as if people of color don’t really advocate or encourage the idea of just negotiating. I’ll hear more stuff like “you just need to get in the door and work your way up, you don’t want them to look at you sideways or think that you’re all about the money or whatever, whatever, whatever”. I hear a lot of those talking points from other people of color.Latricia: Right, right. And I’ve heard the same thing. A little bit about me, my background is in public health and I’m in this facebook group with other women in public health, I won’t say the group specifically, but I’ve seen how black women with master’s degrees are working jobs out of their masters for almost minimum wage. And I can’t believe it. And even just the idea of a six figure salary is something that they don’t dream of until they’re at the top of their career, maybe close to retirement, we’re talking like 50. That’s when they’re thinking they’ll be able to get to that six figures. And then I’m sharing stories about kids I know coming out of undergrad within 3 years at some of these firms, and they’re making six figures in 3 years and you’re talking six figures 20 years into your career. And I’m really passionate about this episode and it’s important for us to talk about it. Like I said, in public health, for some reason people are too ashamed to talk about the money because we’re more focused on social justice and healthcare for all and I totally understand that viewpoint, but we can accomplish social justice and still secure the bag. So, I really think that this is going to be an important show.Zach: Right, and I guess I’m a little taken aback to be honest, because you’re talking about these women. And like I said, you and I have had this conversation in private, but you saying it again is just mind-boggling. You’re talking about women who have advanced degrees taking, like, pennies on the dollar. And that’s nuts to me. And it honestly makes me sad but I’m not surprised, like where do you think that comes from? The idea of not negotiating or not negotiating enough? And let me be clear guys, this is not just an issue for black women. The main people I’ve gotten this whole “chill, take it slow, get in the door and grind” talk are actually from male people of color. But where do you think that comes from, Latricia? What are your thoughts there?Latricia: It’s definitely not exclusive to women of color. These realities still create practical, micro level challenges for all of us day-to-day. And like we said from the start, the issues we’re pushing up against are systemic and institutional and we get that… but, I don’t think that means we just say “whelp, racism, woe is me” and don’t at least figure out ways to fight and be more strategic in how we push for that bag you know? Zach: I definitely do. That’s funny “whelp, racism” that should be a meme. “Nothing we can really do.” It’s not funny but it’s kinda funny at the same time. Anyway--Latricia: That’s gonna be the hashtag for the show, by the way.Zach: Anyway, to your point, I definitely do. And like you said, just talking about some of the larger data points, who’s to say that we’re not able to do some things and mobilize at an individual level that could impact the whole thing? There might be things that we can do, just as Latricia, as Zach, as the person listening to this podcast that could actually make a dent in some of these trends. Latricia: Absolutely. And really, it’d be great to have another, more seasoned perspective. Like someone with over 25 years of experience in career coaching, or corporate recruiting, salary negotiations, and strategic relationship building. Not to say this discussion hasn’t been great, but just to have that extra perspective, you know?Zach: Hmm… you mean like our guest for today’s show, Kyle Mosley?Latricia, Zach: Whaaaaa-?[air horns]Latricia: Alright, so next, we’re going to go into an interview with our guest, Kyle Mosely.Zach: So we have Kyle Mosley on the show - Kyle, welcome!Kyle: Hey, thank you for having me, Zach.Zach: Not a problem, we’re really excited to have you here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind just sharing your story?Kyle: Oh definitely. Well, Zach, I’ve been a recruiter for about 25 years here in Houston, Texas. I started off in 1992, so really I’m going into my 26th year pretty soon. So I started as an engineering recruiter, as well as I delved into some executive recruiting. I owned my own recruiting firm for 8 years before getting back into connecting with an old buddy of mine in the recruiting network and I’m still recruiting until this day. It has been a very lucrative field, my wife is a recruiter as well. And it’s a great opportunity for me to be able to share and help other people.Zach: That’s awesome, and congratulations on coming up on 26 years, that’s amazing.Kyle: Yeah long time. Long, long time, man.Zach: So as you know today we're talking about effective salary negotiation. Can you explain from your point of view why salary negotiation matters?Kyle: That’s a good question. Salary negotiations are much like a relationship negotiation. It sets the tone for what relationship you will or will not have with the prospective employer, okay? So ideally everybody wants to have a win-win situation when it comes to salary negotiations. But, we know eventually one side will either concede or compromise or the other side will not. And somebody either will walk away or, if there is the compromise, there still may be some expectations there from one party that didn’t quite get what they want. So when you go into a salary negotiation, you must know that before you finalize the negotiation as well as come to terms with the other party, what are you prepared to be able live with? I think right now, Zach, in this day and age, it’s no different from when I started recruiting, to be honest with you. It’s that everybody expects to get something out of the deal, right? So if you go into the salary negotiation expecting your top ten list to be fulfilled by the employer? I think you’re delusional.Zach: [Laughs]Kyle: [Laughs] And the reason why I’m saying this is let’s be honest, and I always back to the relationship principle - when you and your wife first started dating, there was some give and take. And it’s the same with your employer, or prospective employer. There will be a give and take. Now, your employer may concede certain aspects of the job function or the salary that you’re going to get, but there are going to be some high expectations the higher that salary goes.Zach: Okay.Kyle: And are you willing and ready to be prepared to accept that responsibility, you see? So if you cannot accept that responsibility and take the ownership of what’s going to happen once you become gainfully employed with that prospective employer, you are going to really have a difficult track with that organization.Zach: So to your point though about, I guess, being more practical regarding companies’ expectations the higher the number goes, do you have any examples or stories of how that plays out?Kyle: Over 25 years I’ve been a part of hundreds of salary negotiations, right? The issue comes into play and it always comes back to “who’s going to be bitter about this situation or not?” [Laughs]Zach: [Laughs] ‘Kay.Kyle: and who’s going to have the higher expectation there. So let’s kind of do a reverse engineering type deal - Let’s start from - you’re on board with the employer, but that employer is going to be expecting certain things from you. So before you go into any salary negotiation, you’ve got to be able to do your homework, number one. And also, number two, you have to know your value. If you don’t know your value and you don’t know anything about the employer or where you’re going to work, you’re really going to put yourself at a disadvantage in this whole negotiation scenario. Now when I talk about knowing your value, is the fact that a lot of people believe that ‘okay. I came out of school, went for 4 years, got my bachelor’s’ and let’s say ‘I went to get a master’s degree or MBA or some sort of advanced college degree, right?Zach: Right.Kyle: So therefore when I go onto these career sites like glassdoor or salary.com or monster or careerbuilder, these guys are telling me I’m worth 80k dollars to start off with. And the employer wants to know ‘yeah, you have great credentials when it comes to your educational credentials, but what about when it comes to your real work experience credentials?’ Ok, and the value comes into - if I offer Zach an opportunity to come onto my company XYZ Executive Firm, right? I need to know that Zach from Day 1 is going to enhance my company. Versus Zach is going to be a person extracting from my company.Zach: okay, yeah.Kyle: So then, that’s when I’m saying if you know your value from day 1, you’ve got to be able to articulate this to your prospective employer. That’s a part of the negotiation cycle. Alright so, I have an entry-level kid coming out of one of these big name Texas schools, and he’s an engineer, and he has his PhD in engineering. So then I have a 5 year engineer who has worked in the oil and gas industry, he only has a bachelor’s degree and they’re vying for the same opportunity. So the firm is telling us ‘ Ilike the fact that this guy went to my alma mater. However, I need a guy that from Day 1 can hit the ground running.’ So who does he offer the job to? The one who has the practical, real-world experience. I’m not trying to alarm people who have done well in their educational pursuits, but you cannot say that I’m gonna walk in day 1 expecting x amount of salary if I don’t have practical experience. That’s when knowing your worth comes into play.Zach: ‘KayKyle: What are you willing to concede in order to get a start in the real world? That 1 if you’re entry-level. 2, let’s say you are the 5-year person or 10-year person or 20-year person - You have some achievements that you’ve done in previous jobs, but if you don’t have that information, if you’re just going off of your emotions-- see, you have to take the emotion out of the equation. You have to also articulate what you believe you’re worth.Zach: Okay. So when we’re sitting down and we’re having conversations with the employer, and you’re answering questions and things of that nature, how do you articulate your value?Kyle: Okay that’s where you do your homework. And a lot of doing your homework is what type of questions are you asking in the interview yourself. A lot of people go into an interview believing that they’re sitting down and the employer is going to ask them all of the questions and they’re going to answer questions and that’s it. No, you have to be prepared to be able to ask certain types of questions to the employer like How long has this job been open? How long have you been looking for the right person? What expectations do you have of that person when they walk in the door? 90 days, 120 days, 180 days, a year, whatever. What are those time tables? What are those things that we can quantify that you’re going to expect me to come in with through the door. If you’re a sales person, they’re going to want to see X amount of revenue that you bring into the organization, right?Zach: RightKyle: if you are an engineer or technical professional, they want to see how many projects you work on and complete in X amount of time. If you are an operations professional, how many projects have you brought to the table and how many projects have you been able to find the right people to work on those projects and be able to complete in this particular time frame as well. So those are the types of things that you have to be able to flesh out in the interview process. If you’re not able to flesh values from the employer, how can you negotiate effectively? Because a lot of people believe ‘It should be on my resume, and you should be able to give me what I’m worth’. So what is that? How does that look? How, as an employer, would I be able to know that Mr. Nunn is worth 60 or 80,000 dollars? 80 or 100,000 dollars to my organization? Because what’s going to be my return on my investment in Mr. Nunn?Zach: For those who don’t know, Kyle Mosley is a black man. And Kyle, I’m curious, as a black professional, I’m curious, have you seen any differences when you look at how white and non-white candidates pursue job opportunities?’Kyle: First of all, audience, let me just say this - I’m a Morehouse man. So when I came out of college, I believed I could conquer the world. I’ll be honest with you though, back in 1989, that’s when I graduated, and I believed I could walk into any room, boardroom and get an offer. That’s how i felt. As a matter of fact, when I first got to Houston, I interviewed at 5 companies in one day and got 4 offers. I had confidence, right? So the confidence I had was I did not go into the interviews with fear. When an African-American engineer, not all- this is what I have noticed.Zach: Okay.Kyle: When an AA engineer goes into an interview, they usually are not as well prepared on the company, who’s the interviewer, who’s going to be a part of the interviewing process, understanding what makes the people tick. If you ever have dealt with a recruiter or have a relationship, a recruiter can possibly give you some inside information on the company, what’s happening with the position, how long these people have been looking, if it’s a high turnover type of situation, or if it’s going to be a tough interview, and how you need to present yourself. We do the whole gamut of setting the person up for as much success during the interview versus if you’re winging it by yourself. And you can always use me, I’m just putting it out there, as someone - you’ve probably heard my voice and said ‘alright I need some help, I’m going into this, I don’t have a recruiter’ - call me. I’m open to help people out. What I would suggest is not only building a network with recruiters or with other talent professionals, being able to study who you’re going to speak with and the market. Also go on LinkedIn. Man, LinkedIn is a fabulous tool. I’m just going to use fictional ABC company.Zach: Sure.Kyle: So, sometimes Human Resources is going to say ‘Ok Sally, you have an interview at 8am tomorrow, be here, be early so you can be prepared to fill out paperwork...’ And you hang up the phone. ‘Wow, I got an interview!’ and you’re excited. Zach, who will you meet? Who will be a part of this process?Zach: Yeah.Kyle: Now I’ve seen other engineers say ‘ok that’s great, but when I walk in the door, who do I need to be expecting my arrival? And how long will I be with this person? Who else is going to be a part of this process?’ They ask more questions.Zach: Right.Kyle: They want to be educated. They want to go to the person’s linkind profile, look at let’s say, where the person went to school, how long they’ve been at the company themselves, what type of hobbies they may have, sometimes people have their hobbies on there. Let’s say it’s photography or hunting or whatever it is.Zach: Right.Kyle: Those are things that you could bring up in the interview, okay? Try to find some common ground with the person outside of just being about the interview or things of that nature, right?Zach: Right. Kyle: So those are things that help you build a successful way to get in the door, interview successfully with that person, and ask the right questions- typically I don’t want people to speak about money on the first interview.Zach: Okay.Kyle: You typically do not want to be the one to come out with the money first because you don’t want to look like it’s only about money to you. Most of the time, they’re going to ask you. So if they ask you, yes address it. And address it confidently. Now, you can also say this- let’s say I’m Mr. Interviewer. ‘Well, Zach, how much money do you want for this particular job?”Zach: Right. [laughs]Kyle: ‘How much are you expecting from us here?’‘Well, Mr. Employer that’s a great question. Can I answer this at the end of the interview so I can be able to get an assessment for what you guys are looking for, to make sure that I’m able to answer that correctly and address it properly.’Zach: Right. So I hear what you’re saying, but at the end of the interview, what would you suggest saying?Kyle: Well, you can give them the number you feel that would make you happy. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Kyle: but you say it in such a way - ‘well, based upon what you guys are looking for, Joe, you’ve been looking for 5 months, you’ve been trying to find the right person who can execute this type of project. I have been able to execute this type of project in several occasions, I explained that in the interview. You’ve been looking for someone to come in and work well with the team, with different teams... so based upon what you’re looking for and my background and feeling like I can make a contribution immediately, I want 100,000 dollars.Zach: Straight like that.Kyle: If you already know that this is what the salary range is bearing, right? Zach: Right. Kyle: You need to have a good feeling, and you can ask that question with HR on the phone , say ‘Hey you know I’m just kind of curious. For this type of role, thank you for this interview first, but what’s the salary range for this?’Zach: you know, I think- Of course we live in a capitalistic society, right? Like you have to have money to survive. So I’m really trying, and I appreciate you clarifying, asking directly about the money piece because I’ve also been in situations where people reach out to me and they’ll be really excited and you know, their salary range is like 15-20% under what I’m making right now. And everybody wants to always make more. You know like ‘how much do you want to make?’ ‘I want to make more than I’m making right now whatchyou mean?’ So I think it’s really important if there’s a way that you can kinda get in front of that and in a way, to your point though, that isn’t so money hungry or just makes it seem as though all you care about is money but at the same time, being transparent about where are we with this thing financially.Kyle: Can I just adress one thing, Zach?Zach: You sure can, yes please.Kyle: Okay, notice when the person asked the question, I didn’t just immediately answer the question, but I asked another question. So there are a couple of techniques you can use. Person asks a question? You can answer the question with a question. Answering a question with a question - Kids are great at that, you know? They do the same thing. My son is about to be 13 next week and now he’s into - he’s not just going to give me a straight answer. And What I learned early on in my career in recruiting is that the person who answers the question first usually loses. Okay, so what do I mean by that? I’m glad you asked, Zach.Zach: [ laughs]Kyle: So what I mean by it is the fact that if a person says ‘we’re prepared to offer you 80,000 dollars.’. Now you can answer it ‘great! I accept! I’m ready to go to work!’ Because you must know in the back of your mind thats where you are and what you’re willing to accept. But if you want to negotiate, you may say ‘ hmm.......’ Notice that long, uncomfortable pause.Zach: Yes, I did.Kyle: right, it’s an uncomfortable pause so sometimes the HR professional who may be extending the offer verbally or the hiring manager may extend it verbally, sometimes they just send an email these days which is a horrible, horrible way of presenting an offer to a prospective employee. Yes I said that, Mr. and Mrs. Employer. You guys need to stop that.Zach: [laughs] Amen.Kyle: So you’ve got to be willing to answer the question, follow up and say ‘look, this seems like a great offer, let me study it, let me be able to review it. I may have some questions, will I be able to call you back? What time is good for me to do so? Let’s make an appointment, can we talk at 3 oclock on Monday to be able to go over the offer in detail, so I can be able to make sure I’m on the same page with you.Zach: Okay.Kyle: So you’re going to have them doing what? In the next day or two or the next hours that are coming - ‘did I really extend it the best offer I could’. Now I always ask my employers whenever they extend an offer to any of my candidate, I’ve been taught to ask this from day 1 - is this the best offer you can extend?Zach: I like that.Kyle: Why? Because I’ve got to be honest guys, 80-90% of the time, that’s not the best offer they can extend. Now, is that the best offer they’re going to extend to you? Maybe. But the bottom line is there are other variables. So you want them to be able to explain why they were eager to prepare this offer for you. And listen, don’t get emotional. Don’t get mad and feel you’re being lowballed. Or you’re being underappreciated or feeling discriminated against. You can’t do that. You have to listen first. Listen to what they have to say, say ‘Okay, I’m taking all of this into consideration. Can I get back to you’ Now here’s the fear part. And this is where many of my minority friends come into the fear part. ‘They’re going to rescind the offer. Because I asked to be able to think about it’.Zach: Right.Kyle: No. It’s how you prepare to ask about. If you have an attitude? Yeah, most likely they’re going to rescind the offer. But if you’re trying to make a well educated decision and let them know ‘I’m trying to make the best decision for me and my family’ or ‘for me and my professional career’. Even if you are fearful they’re going to rescind the offer, say something like this- ‘well, I need to see the benefits, can I speak with the human resources professional and go over the benefits first?’Zach: Oh that’s awesome, yeah.Kyle: Then they’re thinking ‘well yeah, it’s just the benefits, yeah sure. Sure sally why don’t you do that, I’ll set you up with Joe Best and you guys can go over that’ you know? How well you frame it is going to make sure you have your house being supported - your career is your house - what type of foundation you lay, what type of framework you put into your home, will it support the weight of everything else that’s going on? And I’m only saying this because I want the audience to be more in a power type of position versus being passive when it comes to this. Once you start your career, guys, you have to be able to say ‘This is what my goals are going to be’.. And every year you have to redefine your goals, you have to please please redefine your goals. Make sure you check on your goals, make sure you’re on point. You also need to have an outside coach or someone to help monitor you with your accountability as well.Alright, what I would say is this, to any professional, it doesn’t matter how young or old you are- make sure you learn as much as you can to platform yourself to your new situation. Build your career, have a solid foundation so that when people, they look at your track record, they see a progression. That’s it right there, a progression. OKay? Because I had a client of mine come to us and say ‘look, I don’t want to see anyone who’s unemployed’. It’s like ‘ok, this is oil and gas country, there may have been some people out of work’. And the guy says ‘yeah I understand that, but for this role, because this person will most likely become a manager within the next year or two and I need to train this person because I’m going to become the VP of the company, I need to see somebody with a career track record that they progressed from one job to the next. So the person wasn’t just engineer day 1, then he went to another company to be the same type of engineer. You know, I want to see the person go to the next step, supervisor, next step department manager, next step this that and the other, right? If the person’s going to be Analyst 1, don’t go to another job where you’re just going to be Analyst 1. If you can bear not to do so, just for the same type of functions, but more money.Zach: Kyle this is great. And I actually think that’s a good place to end it. You know I really appreciate your time, Thank you. Before we let you go - do you have any shoutouts?Kyle: First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has been in my career my 25+ years. Thank you very much for helping me to be highly successful. My wife, of course, and my family, and thank you for this opportunity as well. But most of all, audience, I would like to thank you for listening into what Zach is presenting because this is some good information. And you may say ‘Hey, Mr. Mosely, I think you made some nice points but I don’t quite agree with you’. That’s okay! It's a discussion for you to think about what you want to do with your career and how you’d like to progress with your career. So you can always follow me on twitter @ExecRecruitPro, I’m on twitter there. And if you want to connect with me, my firm that I represent is called Walker Elliott. So you can always email me at kmosley@walker-elliott.com.Zach: And there it is, Kyle Mosely thank you so much again.Kyle: Hey thank you Zach, anytime, let me know and remember - don’t be as good as, be better than.Zach: Amen. Peace, Man.Kyle: Take care, bye.Latricia: And we’re back! Zach that was a great interview. Kyle has a lot of knowledge and I just love his energy.Zach: Yeah for sure. Typically I feel like I’m the bombastic one but he was keeping up with me pretty good. What did you think about his feedback on clearly articulating the number you want and the reason why?Latricia: Yeah, I really enjoyed his practical perspective on things. For example, response methods. So not just blurting out concerns like ‘that’s not enough money!’, but pausing before you speak, and making it a little awkward. That was really funny, but it makes sense because it’s that psychological approach. There were some mind games there and I just really enjoyed that.Zach: Absolutely. I enjoyed it as well. I also appreciated that he said how this is his perspective and not Gospel. We definitely enjoyed having him on the show, and we definitely want to have him back.Latricia: Yeah he was great. We need to make sure we drop his contact information so everyone can reach out to him if they have any additional questions or concerns.Zach: For sure! Ok - Well look, let’s get into our next segment - favorite things, where we talk about our favorite things these days. Latricia I’ll let you start.Latricia: Yeah, so my favorite thing right now has to be biking. So, it’s very important that you stay fit. I recently participated in BikeMS in Dallas, it was a 160 mile bike route. Of course I did not do the 160 because I am a beginner. So I did the beginner route, but I love biking, it’s a great way to exercise without feeling like it’s punishment, and I’m hoping that next year I can actually complete the entire course.Zach: Man that’s really cool. And we definitely, definitely wanna stay fit, and I’m really excited actually because I know down the road we want to actually have a whole show about personal wellness. Right? And that’s a big part of it. Physical wellness is a huge part of it. Well, cool. My Favorite thing right now has to be, believe it or not, this Snoop Dogg Gospel album.Listen, y’all--Latricia: Ohh, that album is fire!Zach: It is Fire, it is really really good. I mean, welcome to 2018. Like, I can say that Snoop Dogg, at this point -- and again I didn’t want to be a prisoner of the moment, so I said welcome to 2018--where Snoop Dogg has dropped one of the coldest gospel albums I have ever heard. And it’s been some months now and this album is still heavy in my rotation, especially when folks trying me at work. To be honest.Latricia: [laughs] I actually listen to that song when I’m at work, too. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show - Like The Read , make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. My name is Latricia.Zach: and I’m Zach.Latricia, Zach: peace!Mrs. Jackson: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post Production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on twitter, facebook, instagram and living dash corporate dot com. Thanks for listening! Stay tuned.