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In June, the Union Consumer Affairs Ministry came out with a list of proposed amendments to the Consumer Protection Act of 2019. These include appointment of a Chief Compliance Officer and a Resident Grievance Officer, provisions of fall back liability, registration of e-commerce entities and seeking an end to flash sales. The Centre claims that these amendments try to rein in unfair trade practices adopted by e-commerce companies and intend to take care of the interests of consumers. But not everyone agrees. Here we discuss the proposed amendments in a conversation moderated by. Guests: Prithwiraj Mukherjee, an Assistant Professor at IIM, Bangalore; Anupam Manur, an Assistant Professor at the Takshashila Institution. Host: Prashanth Perumal J Read the Parley article here. You can now find The Hindu's podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and Stitcher. Search for Parley by The Hindu. Write to us with comments and feedback at socmed4@thehindu.co.in

Psalms and Wisdom: Ecclesiastes 9:1–10 Ecclesiastes 9:1–10 (Listen) Death Comes to All 9 But all this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. Whether it is love or hate, man does not know; both are before him. 2 It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil,1 to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. 3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. Enjoy Life with the One You Love 7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Let your garments be always white. Let not oil be lacking on your head. 9 Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain2 life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might,3 for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. Footnotes [1] 9:2 Septuagint, Syriac, Vulgate; Hebrew lacks and the evil [2] 9:9 The Hebrew term hebel can refer to a “vapor” or “mere breath” (see note on 1:2) [3] 9:10 Or finds to do with your might, do it (ESV) Pentateuch and History: Joshua 15 Joshua 15 (Listen) The Allotment for Judah 15 The allotment for the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans reached southward to the boundary of Edom, to the wilderness of Zin at the farthest south. 2 And their south boundary ran from the end of the Salt Sea, from the bay that faces southward. 3 It goes out southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, passes along to Zin, and goes up south of Kadesh-barnea, along by Hezron, up to Addar, turns about to Karka, 4 passes along to Azmon, goes out by the Brook of Egypt, and comes to its end at the sea. This shall be your south boundary. 5 And the east boundary is the Salt Sea, to the mouth of the Jordan. And the boundary on the north side runs from the bay of the sea at the mouth of the Jordan. 6 And the boundary goes up to Beth-hoglah and passes along north of Beth-arabah. And the boundary goes up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben. 7 And the boundary goes up to Debir from the Valley of Achor, and so northward, turning toward Gilgal, which is opposite the ascent of Adummim, which is on the south side of the valley. And the boundary passes along to the waters of En-shemesh and ends at En-rogel. 8 Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem). And the boundary goes up to the top of the mountain that lies over against the Valley of Hinnom, on the west, at the northern end of the Valley of Rephaim. 9 Then the boundary extends from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Nephtoah, and from there to the cities of Mount Ephron. Then the boundary bends around to Baalah (that is, Kiriath-jearim). 10 And the boundary circles west of Baalah to Mount Seir, passes along to the northern shoulder of Mount Jearim (that is, Chesalon), and goes down to Beth-shemesh and passes along by Timnah. 11 The boundary goes out to the shoulder of the hill north of Ekron, then the boundary bends around to Shikkeron and passes along to Mount Baalah and goes out to Jabneel. Then the boundary comes to an end at the sea. 12 And the west boundary was the Great Sea with its coastline. This is the boundary around the people of Judah according to their clans. 13 According to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, he gave to Caleb the son of Jephunneh a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath-arba, that is, Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak). 14 And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. 15 And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath-sepher. 16 And Caleb said, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher and captures it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife.” 17 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, captured it. And he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife. 18 When she came to him, she urged him to ask her father for a field. And she got off her donkey, and Caleb said to her, “What do you want?” 19 She said to him, “Give me a blessing. Since you have given me the land of the Negeb, give me also springs of water.” And he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. 20 This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans. 21 The cities belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah in the extreme south, toward the boundary of Edom, were Kabzeel, Eder, Jagur, 22 Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, 23 Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, 24 Ziph, Telem, Bealoth, 25 Hazor-hadattah, Kerioth-hezron (that is, Hazor), 26 Amam, Shema, Moladah, 27 Hazar-gaddah, Heshmon, Beth-pelet, 28 Hazar-shual, Beersheba, Biziothiah, 29 Baalah, Iim, Ezem, 30 Eltolad, Chesil, Hormah, 31 Ziklag, Madmannah, Sansannah, 32 Lebaoth, Shilhim, Ain, and Rimmon: in all, twenty-nine cities with their villages. 33 And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34 Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages. 37 Zenan, Hadashah, Migdal-gad, 38 Dilean, Mizpeh, Joktheel, 39 Lachish, Bozkath, Eglon, 40 Cabbon, Lahmam, Chitlish, 41 Gederoth, Beth-dagon, Naamah, and Makkedah: sixteen cities with their villages. 42 Libnah, Ether, Ashan, 43 Iphtah, Ashnah, Nezib, 44 Keilah, Achzib, and Mareshah: nine cities with their villages. 45 Ekron, with its towns and its villages; 46 from Ekron to the sea, all that were by the side of Ashdod, with their villages. 47 Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its towns and its villages; to the Brook of Egypt, and the Great Sea with its coastline. 48 And in the hill country, Shamir, Jattir, Socoh, 49 Dannah, Kiriath-sannah (that is, Debir), 50 Anab, Eshtemoh, Anim, 51 Goshen, Holon, and Giloh: eleven cities with their villages. 52 Arab, Dumah, Eshan, 53 Janim, Beth-tappuah, Aphekah, 54 Humtah, Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron), and Zior: nine cities with their villages. 55 Maon, Carmel, Ziph, Juttah, 56 Jezreel, Jokdeam, Zanoah, 57 Kain, Gibeah, and Timnah: ten cities with their villages. 58 Halhul, Beth-zur, Gedor, 59 Maarath, Beth-anoth, and Eltekon: six cities with their villages. 60 Kiriath-baal (that is, Kiriath-jearim), and Rabbah: two cities with their villages. 61 In the wilderness, Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah, 62 Nibshan, the City of Salt, and Engedi: six cities with their villages. 63 But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day. (ESV) Chronicles and Prophets: Jeremiah 8:4–9:22 Jeremiah 8:4–9:22 (Listen) Sin and Treachery 4   “You shall say to them, Thus says the LORD:  When men fall, do they not rise again?    If one turns away, does he not return?5   Why then has this people turned away    in perpetual backsliding?  They hold fast to deceit;    they refuse to return.6   I have paid attention and listened,    but they have not spoken rightly;  no man relents of his evil,    saying, ‘What have I done?'  Everyone turns to his own course,    like a horse plunging headlong into battle.7   Even the stork in the heavens    knows her times,  and the turtledove, swallow, and crane1    keep the time of their coming,  but my people know not    the rules2 of the LORD. 8   “How can you say, ‘We are wise,    and the law of the LORD is with us'?  But behold, the lying pen of the scribes    has made it into a lie.9   The wise men shall be put to shame;    they shall be dismayed and taken;  behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD,    so what wisdom is in them?10   Therefore I will give their wives to others    and their fields to conquerors,  because from the least to the greatest    everyone is greedy for unjust gain;  from prophet to priest,    everyone deals falsely.11   They have healed the wound of my people lightly,    saying, ‘Peace, peace,'    when there is no peace.12   Were they ashamed when they committed abomination?    No, they were not at all ashamed;    they did not know how to blush.  Therefore they shall fall among the fallen;    when I punish them, they shall be overthrown,      says the LORD.13   When I would gather them, declares the LORD,    there are no grapes on the vine,    nor figs on the fig tree;  even the leaves are withered,    and what I gave them has passed away from them.”3 14   Why do we sit still?  Gather together; let us go into the fortified cities    and perish there,  for the LORD our God has doomed us to perish    and has given us poisoned water to drink,    because we have sinned against the LORD.15   We looked for peace, but no good came;    for a time of healing, but behold, terror. 16   “The snorting of their horses is heard from Dan;    at the sound of the neighing of their stallions    the whole land quakes.  They come and devour the land and all that fills it,    the city and those who dwell in it.17   For behold, I am sending among you serpents,    adders that cannot be charmed,    and they shall bite you,”      declares the LORD. Jeremiah Grieves for His People 18   My joy is gone; grief is upon me;4    my heart is sick within me.19   Behold, the cry of the daughter of my people    from the length and breadth of the land:  “Is the LORD not in Zion?    Is her King not in her?”  “Why have they provoked me to anger with their carved images    and with their foreign idols?”20   “The harvest is past, the summer is ended,    and we are not saved.”21   For the wound of the daughter of my people is my heart wounded;    I mourn, and dismay has taken hold on me. 22   Is there no balm in Gilead?    Is there no physician there?  Why then has the health of the daughter of my people    not been restored?9   5 Oh that my head were waters,    and my eyes a fountain of tears,  that I might weep day and night    for the slain of the daughter of my people!2   6 Oh that I had in the desert    a travelers' lodging place,  that I might leave my people    and go away from them!  For they are all adulterers,    a company of treacherous men.3   They bend their tongue like a bow;    falsehood and not truth has grown strong7 in the land;  for they proceed from evil to evil,    and they do not know me, declares the LORD. 4   Let everyone beware of his neighbor,    and put no trust in any brother,  for every brother is a deceiver,    and every neighbor goes about as a slanderer.5   Everyone deceives his neighbor,    and no one speaks the truth;  they have taught their tongue to speak lies;    they weary themselves committing iniquity.6   Heaping oppression upon oppression, and deceit upon deceit,    they refuse to know me, declares the LORD. 7   Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts:  “Behold, I will refine them and test them,    for what else can I do, because of my people?8   Their tongue is a deadly arrow;    it speaks deceitfully;  with his mouth each speaks peace to his neighbor,    but in his heart he plans an ambush for him.9   Shall I not punish them for these things? declares the LORD,    and shall I not avenge myself    on a nation such as this? 10   “I will take up weeping and wailing for the mountains,    and a lamentation for the pastures of the wilderness,  because they are laid waste so that no one passes through,    and the lowing of cattle is not heard;  both the birds of the air and the beasts    have fled and are gone.11   I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins,    a lair of jackals,  and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation,    without inhabitant.” 12 Who is the man so wise that he can understand this? To whom has the mouth of the LORD spoken, that he may declare it? Why is the land ruined and laid waste like a wilderness, so that no one passes through? 13 And the LORD says: “Because they have forsaken my law that I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice or walked in accord with it, 14 but have stubbornly followed their own hearts and have gone after the Baals, as their fathers taught them. 15 Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will feed this people with bitter food, and give them poisonous water to drink. 16 I will scatter them among the nations whom neither they nor their fathers have known, and I will send the sword after them, until I have consumed them.” 17   Thus says the LORD of hosts:  “Consider, and call for the mourning women to come;    send for the skillful women to come;18   let them make haste and raise a wailing over us,    that our eyes may run down with tears    and our eyelids flow with water.19   For a sound of wailing is heard from Zion:    ‘How we are ruined!    We are utterly shamed,  because we have left the land,    because they have cast down our dwellings.'” 20   Hear, O women, the word of the LORD,    and let your ear receive the word of his mouth;  teach to your daughters a lament,    and each to her neighbor a dirge.21   For death has come up into our windows;    it has entered our palaces,  cutting off the children from the streets    and the young men from the squares.22   Speak: “Thus declares the LORD,  ‘The dead bodies of men shall fall    like dung upon the open field,  like sheaves after the reaper,    and none shall gather them.'” Footnotes [1] 8:7 The meaning of the Hebrew word is uncertain [2] 8:7 Or just decrees [3] 8:13 The meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain [4] 8:18 Compare Septuagint; the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain [5] 9:1 Ch 8:23 in Hebrew [6] 9:2 Ch 9:1 in Hebrew [7] 9:3 Septuagint; Hebrew and not for truth they have grown strong (ESV) Gospels and Epistles: Matthew 23 Matthew 23 (Listen) Seven Woes to the Scribes and Pharisees 23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,1 and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi2 by others. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.3 9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.

With family: Joshua 14–15; Psalms 146–147 Joshua 14–15 (Listen) The Inheritance West of the Jordan 14 These are the inheritances that the people of Israel received in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest and Joshua the son of Nun and the heads of the fathers' houses of the tribes of the people of Israel gave them to inherit. 2 Their inheritance was by lot, just as the LORD had commanded by the hand of Moses for the nine and one-half tribes. 3 For Moses had given an inheritance to the two and one-half tribes beyond the Jordan, but to the Levites he gave no inheritance among them. 4 For the people of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim. And no portion was given to the Levites in the land, but only cities to dwell in, with their pasturelands for their livestock and their substance. 5 The people of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses; they allotted the land. Caleb's Request and Inheritance 6 Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal. And Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, “You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me. 7 I was forty years old when Moses the servant of the LORD sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land, and I brought him word again as it was in my heart. 8 But my brothers who went up with me made the heart of the people melt; yet I wholly followed the LORD my God. 9 And Moses swore on that day, saying, ‘Surely the land on which your foot has trodden shall be an inheritance for you and your children forever, because you have wholly followed the LORD my God.' 10 And now, behold, the LORD has kept me alive, just as he said, these forty-five years since the time that the LORD spoke this word to Moses, while Israel walked in the wilderness. And now, behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. 11 I am still as strong today as I was in the day that Moses sent me; my strength now is as my strength was then, for war and for going and coming. 12 So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said.” 13 Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. 14 Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. 15 Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba.1 (Arba2 was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war. The Allotment for Judah 15 The allotment for the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans reached southward to the boundary of Edom, to the wilderness of Zin at the farthest south. 2 And their south boundary ran from the end of the Salt Sea, from the bay that faces southward. 3 It goes out southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, passes along to Zin, and goes up south of Kadesh-barnea, along by Hezron, up to Addar, turns about to Karka, 4 passes along to Azmon, goes out by the Brook of Egypt, and comes to its end at the sea. This shall be your south boundary. 5 And the east boundary is the Salt Sea, to the mouth of the Jordan. And the boundary on the north side runs from the bay of the sea at the mouth of the Jordan. 6 And the boundary goes up to Beth-hoglah and passes along north of Beth-arabah. And the boundary goes up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben. 7 And the boundary goes up to Debir from the Valley of Achor, and so northward, turning toward Gilgal, which is opposite the ascent of Adummim, which is on the south side of the valley. And the boundary passes along to the waters of En-shemesh and ends at En-rogel. 8 Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem). And the boundary goes up to the top of the mountain that lies over against the Valley of Hinnom, on the west, at the northern end of the Valley of Rephaim. 9 Then the boundary extends from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Nephtoah, and from there to the cities of Mount Ephron. Then the boundary bends around to Baalah (that is, Kiriath-jearim). 10 And the boundary circles west of Baalah to Mount Seir, passes along to the northern shoulder of Mount Jearim (that is, Chesalon), and goes down to Beth-shemesh and passes along by Timnah. 11 The boundary goes out to the shoulder of the hill north of Ekron, then the boundary bends around to Shikkeron and passes along to Mount Baalah and goes out to Jabneel. Then the boundary comes to an end at the sea. 12 And the west boundary was the Great Sea with its coastline. This is the boundary around the people of Judah according to their clans. 13 According to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, he gave to Caleb the son of Jephunneh a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath-arba, that is, Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak). 14 And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. 15 And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath-sepher. 16 And Caleb said, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher and captures it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife.” 17 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, captured it. And he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife. 18 When she came to him, she urged him to ask her father for a field. And she got off her donkey, and Caleb said to her, “What do you want?” 19 She said to him, “Give me a blessing. Since you have given me the land of the Negeb, give me also springs of water.” And he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. 20 This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans. 21 The cities belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah in the extreme south, toward the boundary of Edom, were Kabzeel, Eder, Jagur, 22 Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, 23 Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, 24 Ziph, Telem, Bealoth, 25 Hazor-hadattah, Kerioth-hezron (that is, Hazor), 26 Amam, Shema, Moladah, 27 Hazar-gaddah, Heshmon, Beth-pelet, 28 Hazar-shual, Beersheba, Biziothiah, 29 Baalah, Iim, Ezem, 30 Eltolad, Chesil, Hormah, 31 Ziklag, Madmannah, Sansannah, 32 Lebaoth, Shilhim, Ain, and Rimmon: in all, twenty-nine cities with their villages. 33 And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34 Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages. 37 Zenan, Hadashah, Migdal-gad, 38 Dilean, Mizpeh, Joktheel, 39 Lachish, Bozkath, Eglon, 40 Cabbon, Lahmam, Chitlish, 41 Gederoth, Beth-dagon, Naamah, and Makkedah: sixteen cities with their villages. 42 Libnah, Ether, Ashan, 43 Iphtah, Ashnah, Nezib, 44 Keilah, Achzib, and Mareshah: nine cities with their villages. 45 Ekron, with its towns and its villages; 46 from Ekron to the sea, all that were by the side of Ashdod, with their villages. 47 Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its towns and its villages; to the Brook of Egypt, and the Great Sea with its coastline. 48 And in the hill country, Shamir, Jattir, Socoh, 49 Dannah, Kiriath-sannah (that is, Debir), 50 Anab, Eshtemoh, Anim, 51 Goshen, Holon, and Giloh: eleven cities with their villages. 52 Arab, Dumah, Eshan, 53 Janim, Beth-tappuah, Aphekah, 54 Humtah, Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron), and Zior: nine cities with their villages. 55 Maon, Carmel, Ziph, Juttah, 56 Jezreel, Jokdeam, Zanoah, 57 Kain, Gibeah, and Timnah: ten cities with their villages. 58 Halhul, Beth-zur, Gedor, 59 Maarath, Beth-anoth, and Eltekon: six cities with their villages. 60 Kiriath-baal (that is, Kiriath-jearim), and Rabbah: two cities with their villages. 61 In the wilderness, Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah, 62 Nibshan, the City of Salt, and Engedi: six cities with their villages. 63 But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day. Footnotes [1] 14:15 Kiriath-arba means the city of Arba [2] 14:15 Hebrew He (ESV) Psalms 146–147 (Listen) Put Not Your Trust in Princes 146   Praise the LORD!  Praise the LORD, O my soul!2   I will praise the LORD as long as I live;    I will sing praises to my God while I have my being. 3   Put not your trust in princes,    in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.4   When his breath departs, he returns to the earth;    on that very day his plans perish. 5   Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,    whose hope is in the LORD his God,6   who made heaven and earth,    the sea, and all that is in them,  who keeps faith forever;7     who executes justice for the oppressed,    who gives food to the hungry.   The LORD sets the prisoners free;8     the LORD opens the eyes of the blind.  The LORD lifts up those who are bowed down;    the LORD loves the righteous.9   The LORD watches over the sojourners;    he upholds the widow and the fatherless,    but the way of the wicked he brings to ruin. 10   The LORD will reign forever,    your God, O Zion, to all generations.  Praise the LORD! He Heals the Brokenhearted 147   Praise the LORD!  For it is good to sing praises to our God;    for it is pleasant,1 and a song of praise is fitting.2   The LORD builds up Jerusalem;    he gathers the outcasts of Israel.3   He heals the brokenhearted    and binds up their wounds.4   He determines the number of the stars;    he gives to all of them their names.5   Great is our Lord, and abundant in power;    his understanding is beyond measure.6   The LORD lifts up the humble;2    he casts the wicked to the ground. 7   Sing to the LORD with thanksgiving;    make melody to our God on the lyre!8   He covers the heavens with clouds;    he prepares rain for the earth;    he makes grass grow on the hills.9   He gives to the beasts their food,    and to the young ravens that cry.10   His delight is not in the strength of the horse,    nor his pleasure in the legs of a man,11   but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him,    in those who hope in his steadfast love. 12   Praise the LORD, O Jerusalem!    Praise your God, O Zion!13   For he strengthens the bars of your gates;    he blesses your children within you.14   He makes peace in your borders;    he fills you with the finest of the wheat.15   He sends out his command to the earth;    his word runs swiftly.16   He gives snow like wool;    he scatters frost like ashes.17   He hurls down his crystals of ice like crumbs;    who can stand before his cold?18   He sends out his word, and melts them;    he makes his wind blow and the waters flow.19   He declares his word to Jacob,    his statutes and rules3 to Israel.20   He has not dealt thus with any other nation;    they do not know his rules.4  Praise the LORD! Footnotes [1] 147:1 Or for he is beautiful [2] 147:6 Or afflicted [3] 147:19 Or and just decrees [4] 147:20 Or his just decrees (ESV) In private: Jeremiah 7; Matthew 21 Jeremiah 7 (Listen) Evil in the Land 7 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: 2 “Stand in the gate of the LORD's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all you men of Judah who enter these gates to worship the LORD. 3 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. 4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: ‘This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.' 5 “For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, 6 if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever. 8 “Behold, you trust in deceptive words to no avail. 9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, ‘We are delivered!'—only to go on doing all these abominations? 11 Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the LORD. 12 Go now to my place that was in Shiloh, where I made my name dwell at first, and see what I did to it because of the evil of my people Israel. 13 And now, because you have done all these things, declares the LORD, and when I spoke to you persistently you did not listen, and when I called you, you did not answer, 14 therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name, and in which you trust, and to the place that I gave to you and to your fathers, as I did to Shiloh. 15 And I will cast you out of my sight, as I cast out all your kinsmen, all the offspring of Ephraim. 16 “As for you, do not pray for this people, or lift up a cry or prayer for them, and do not intercede with me, for I will not hear you. 17 Do you not see what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger. 19 Is it I whom they provoke? declares the LORD. Is it not themselves, to their own shame? 20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, my anger and my wrath will be poured out on this place, upon man and beast, upon the trees of the field and the fruit of the ground; it will burn and not be quenched.” 21 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. 22 For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' 24 But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward. 25 From the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt to this day, I have persistently sent all my servants the prophets to them, day after day. 26 Yet they did not listen to me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers. 27 “So you shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you. You shall call to them, but they will not answer you. 28 And you shall say to them, ‘This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God, and did not accept discipline; truth has perished; it is cut off from their lips. 29   “‘Cut off your hair and cast it away;    raise a lamentation on the bare heights,  for the LORD has rejected and forsaken    the generation of his wrath.' The Valley of Slaughter 30 “For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the LORD. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. 33 And the dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the air, and for the beasts of the earth, and none will frighten them away. 34 And I will silence in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, for the land shall become a waste. (ESV) Matthew 21 (Listen) The Triumphal Entry 21 Now when they drew near to Jerusalem and came to Bethphage, to the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village in front of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord needs them,' and he will send them at once.” 4 This took place to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5   “Say to the daughter of Zion,  ‘Behold, your king is coming to you,    humble, and mounted on a donkey,    on a colt,1 the foal of a beast of burden.'” 6 The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them. 7 They brought the donkey and the colt and put on them their cloaks, and he sat on them. 8 Most of the crowd spread their cloaks on the road, and others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9 And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, “Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!” 10 And when he entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred up, saying, “Who is this?” 11 And the crowds said, “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee.” Jesus Cleanses the Temple 12 And Jesus entered the temple2 and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons. 13 He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you make it a den of robbers.” 14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple, and he healed them. 15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying out in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant, 16 and they said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read,   “‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies    you have prepared praise'?” 17 And leaving them, he went out of the city to Bethany and lodged there. Jesus Curses the Fig Tree 18 In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he became hungry. 19 And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves. And he said to it, “May no fruit ever come from you again!” And the fig tree withered at once. 20 When the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither at once?” 21 And Jesus answered them, “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' it will happen. 22 And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.” The Authority of Jesus Challenged 23 And when he entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came up to him as he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” 24 Jesus answered them, “I also will ask you one question, and if you tell me the answer, then I also will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, from where did it come? From heaven or from man?” And they discussed it among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,' he will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?' 26 But if we say, ‘From man,' we are afraid of the crowd, for they all hold that John was a prophet.” 27 So they answered Jesus, “We do not know.” And he said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things. The Parable of the Two Sons 28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' 29 And he answered, ‘I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30 And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,' but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him. The Parable of the Tenants 33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit dre

In this conversation, Madhurima Agarwal, Director of Engineering Programs and Leader at NetApp Accelerator shares are career journey with Chitra. She talks about -Her love for technology starting when she believed in grade 8 that she was the best programmer in the worldBeing an entrepreneur during her college days with her father as mentor and angel investor, building a product to automate member directory for the chambers of commerce and industry at RanchiLearning empathy, self-discipline and confidence through her ventureUnderstanding what entrepreneurs go through in early days from personal experience enabled her while mentoring entrepreneurs today and facing bias as a young entrepreneurTech world a fair space where your work speaks for itself and need for women to speak about what they have doneFinding the right product market fit, her rules of thumb - Knowing the domain or asking experts - Understanding pain points of customers Developing an experimental mindset, encouraging and accepting failure, having a mentorChanging tracks and feeling confident to do so Support and communities between investors and entrepreneurs to build great products and encourage entrepreneurshipHer 3 messages for technology and entrepreneurial aspirants - Be the best at what you do; -Don't be afraid of failing; -Be OptimisticMadhurima Agarwal works as the Director for Engineering Program with global responsibility for leading NetApp's startup program called NetApp Excellerator – startup.netapp.in. She also plays a key role in driving enhanced collaboration between engineering and market-facing functions across NetApp India and acts as the touch point for all external partnerships. She brings with her over 17yrs of experience spanning domains across the globe with leading financial firms. She's been an entrepreneur and currently dons the hats of a mentor and advisor to startups. An alumna of IIM, Ahmedabad, Madhurima enjoys driving innovation and taming the power of technology to achieve organizational growth.She's an avid reader and enjoys writing on topics around entrepreneurship. Madhurima is an advisor to the WIT (Women in Technology) group at NetApp and focuses on professional development of women in the workplace.Reach her at :linkedin.com/in/madhurimaagarwalTwitter : @MadhurimaAg

Founded in December 2016 and bagging many awards from Central Ministry, Webboombaa was co-founded by Mr. Durairaju, who faced multiple failures in his college life, but a winner of Top 30 under 30 award from Impact Weekly Magazine, and his co-founders and friends, Sarath Ravikumar and Varun Kumar. Mr. Durai is also one of the few founders who has taken an exit from his startup. Mr. Durairaju is an Engineering Graduate from Anna University, Marketing and Operations Graduate (MBA) from Sri Sairam Group of Institutions, Artificial Intelligence Powered Marketing Graduate from IIM, Calcutta and also learnt Product Growth and Marketing from GrowthX. He was a Business development Student Ambassador in Uniq Technologies, Co-Founder and CEO of Astute Fanfare, and now is also the Co-Founder of Brandinfluencerz. His startup Astutue Fanfare was started while he was a college student. Want to learn more about a Startup, founded by a Marketing executive and his friends? Tap the Play Button! Curious to know who's behind Tamilpreneur ? Listen to the intro of S5E1 - https://open.spotify.com/show/5f59gJfY5VIqP3NkPJwi3d Follow us on our Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/tamilpreneur/ Checkout our Youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOCHKQxZv7Y&t=1s&ab_channel=Tamilpreneur. If you are listening on Spotify, Google podcast - please Subscribe :) If you are listening on iTunes make sure to Rate and Review the podcast. Yes, It really helps !! Tamilpreneur - 1 Lakh Tamil entrepreneurs by 2025

Over the last two decades, Ravi Gulati has built and nurtured a dynamic learning community of across-age learners. As the Co-Founder and Chief Executive Volunteer of Manzil - a not for profit organization in Delhi, Ravi thrives on his work with children, adolescents and youth from low-income families by facilitating the discovery of their potential and passion for self and society.   In the last few years, Manzil has evolved into a youth-led initiative where all of their core team comprises of their own students and where youth are at once learners and teachers. Manzil has and continues to spawn and spin-off numerous other social entrepreneurial & intrapreneurial youth initiatives. Beyond Manzil, Ravi often engages with youth, particularly social entrepreneurs through several leading academic institutions and non-profits. Ravi also co-leads Creatnet Education which has been facilitating the learning and development of all the 1000+ Delhi Government School Principals for Effective School Leadership. Ravi is also co-founder of other non-profits viz ComMutiny-The Youth Collective and Safe inIndia Foundation. He has also served on the boards of non-profits like Pravah and Saher that focus on youth leadership. He is an MBA from IIM, Ahmedabad. A heart-led person that he is, nurturing learning communities and fostering people seems like the perfect fit for a Ravi who was otherwise trained to manage business.  Ravi currently lives in New Delhi with his inspiration, his 86 year young mother Indira Gulati (Co-Founder Manzil), the happiness expert - his special sister Sonia, his wife Neha and his new found love, their 6 month old daughter Alaya :)  Here are Ravi Gulati's responses to "5 Questions" we asked him : What makes you come alive? Being able to touch people deeply so they can discover themselves, find meaning, and become enthusiastic about and good at sharing the Gift that they are to the world, no holds barred. The tangible context that literally fell in my lap as a gift for me to practice this, is Manzil - an open learning community of mostly children and youth from low income families that I've nurtured, that in turn has nurtured me in equal measure, for the last 24 years, which is practically all of my adult life. Over the years, this intense work has further led to so many enriching extensions to contribute to others beyond Manzil in similar ways.   What event/moment has been a pivotal turning point in your life?* Meeting my teacher Prof Anil Gupta and how he gave direction & support to a strong untested feeling of mine. In my first year of MBA at IIM Ahmedabad, and all of 21, I was inspired by a senior of mine who was taking the guidance of Prof. Gupta for a job in an NGO (I had just recently learned of this term then).  So I thought, why wait for one year to do so, why not seek Prof’s help for me to get placed with an NGO for our mandated summer training after the first year. I approached him, half fearing a grilling so he could be sure that I was serious. After all, it was such an unusual request coming from an MBA student then. Instead, I sensed an immense trust & belief in me.  He laid out so many choices before me that I had a tough time deciding. I finally picked one and landed up in a region called the Ghad Kshetra, located in the foothills of the Shivaliks. I spent a month there, hoping to be useful to an NGO called Vikalp. Visibly an outsider, I was a curiosity for the locals. Upon finding out that I was visiting to ‘learn’, they would invite me to their villages to stay at their homes. I rarely refused, and so through the month I ended up sleeping in a new home every couple of days in maybe 10 different villages. I had two big takeaways from my most interesting time there, which is why I consider it a pivotal turning point in my life. First, I realized that all knowledge is contextual. People were curious about what I was doing back in the city. The first time this happened, thinking that they wouldn’t know about MBA back in 1990, I told them that I was pursuing MA. “What class is that?” they said, “Over here we count classes as 1, 2, 3 and so on”. I did some quick mental math and said, “16. I’m in class 16”. I still recall vividly the response I got, “16??? What’s there to learn so much in school? Our children here study till class 4-5 max, and it’s quite sufficient as they turn out fine”. I had a hard time convincing them of the relevance of what I was learning; all I got were polite nods. Although they didn't say this to me, I’m sure they must have wondered about all the time I ‘wasted’ learning ‘useless things’ at school, when I didn’t possess the basic real world knowledge that even an eight-year-old village lad who has never been to school had. For instance, I couldn’t even identify the crops that were growing in farms all around me; all the knowledge I was supposedly receiving in the best of institutions had not prepared me to be able to do that. The experience taught me to stop looking at people through the lens of the impressive degrees they had acquired and the pedigree of educational institutions they had studied at. My second takeaway was that it was really quite needless to worry too much about the future. The care and hospitality that I received from complete strangers - that was a totally new experience for me. I spent hardly any of the money I had carried from Delhi - they just wouldn't let me. I realized that just as there are many things that can go wrong in life, there's unexpected help and support just waiting to come into our lives if only we trust the world and its people. I came back to IIM Ahmedabad a changed young man, ready to venture into unexplored vistas of my dreams, and bold enough, to my peers’ utter amazement, to opt out of the final placement for a job. I knew I had ‘let school interfere with my education’ (thank you Mark Twain), and was ready to stop operating out of fear of the future. Instead, travel during my summer training had served my learning well, and I was determined to take that route. It was for that reason that when I got an opportunity to work for 8 months in Canada, I grabbed at it. While over there I saved almost 70% of my salary every month, to finance my travel & social explorations back in India. Once back, I managed to travel extensively for 3-4 years which changed my entire life perspective. Manzil wouldn’t have been the kind of learning community it is today without my travel experience across our truly ‘Incredible India’.   An act of kindness you'll never forget?* It was the year 2000, and I was only three years into initiating Manzil. I got an unexpected phone call from a batchmate of mine from IIM Ahmedabad. It  was Shridhar Sethuram. Delighted to be in touch after nine years, we exchanged notes in great detail. He was in Pune working with a Startup founded by other batchmates. Those were the days when long-distance calls were expensive and billed by seconds, and we used to feel hurried and anxious on the inside when on such calls. Instinctively, I tried to keep my responses short, but Shridhar urged me to continue to recount in great detail the stories I was so excited to share about my new young friends in Manzil. I spoke about Manzil passionately for over an hour. He kept asking me more and more questions. When we were finally done, he asked me how he could contribute to my work. At that time, I had very strong views against the dominant narrative that money is necessary to do social good. So I told him, the only thing we need is time, but unfortunately, we can't have yours since you are based in Pune. Shridhar insisted that I must have some use for money, and that he would like to donate some. My response? “Why do we need money when all we need is a place to sit for the learner and the teacher - and that is my home. It costs me nothing to run Manzil. So no, we don't need your money”.  He kept insisting that I think a bit more about how money could be useful. But I had very strong views back then that money is a double-edged sword. It’s helpful, but the edge facing us is dangerous & destroys the purity of intention behind work for social good. So I kept stonewalling his request.  Finally exhausted, he said that he and his wife Binaifer will fly down to Delhi every weekend and spend 2 days with the Manzil students, offering their time in whichever way I felt useful. That’s when it dawned on me that Shridhar was really really serious about contributing to my work in one way or another, and it was silly of me to parry this purity of intention. I remembered that just the year before, we had gotten a wonderful opportunity to take manzillions to a village in Uttarakhand where a friend of mine - Yogeshwar Kumar - had tapped a small water stream to set up a 20 kW micro-hydro power unit to generate electricity for the community there. Just like Mohan Bhargav in the film Swades! Ever since I had met Yogeshwar, I had been excited about this small scale appropriate technology, and had wanted my students to experience it. To travel to the location Budhakedar, we had put together small contributions from the students themselves then, but found after that that we still had a deficit of 5000 rupees, which Yogeshwar had very kindly gotten us from some other nonprofit. It was an amazing educational trip, full of fun and learning for all, as it wasn’t just about the technology but also about rural life and local economy and governance and all sorts of interconnected things that learning ought to be about. As I remembered this incredible learning experience from the previous year and also remembering all of my growth from traveling myself that no school had ever given me, I suggested to Shridhar that he donate 5000 rupees to us so we could organise another trip like that. He immediately said he would send us 20000 rupees, which was a considerable sum in those days. I thought we would still use the money sparingly and stretch it over 4 trips, and so I accepted his offer. Completely coincidentally, that same year 2000, we got an opportunity to go to Ladakh, stay at SECMOL, and experience a very different culture and way of life there. And because it’s much farther away and costly to travel, there was a budget deficit of exactly 20000 rupees. Serendipitous, as Shridhar would say, whose very timely appearance back in my life made possible for manzillions that wonderful educational trip to Ladakh that left much food for thought for all of us! This act of kindness, and what it set in motion - continuing support to Manzil for the last 21 years by Shridhar - is something I will never ever forget.   One thing on your bucket list?* I really want to put together a group of trusted people to properly apply that part of my estate that I wish to leave behind for social good. That’s the only thing on my bucket list.   Your one-line message for the world:* The abiding source of happiness is in finding meaning. Practice being of service to others -  that's one place of meaning that works, always and for everyone.

In today's episode, we take a break from regular programming to welcome a very special guest, *drumroll please*, our very own host, Surya. Over the past few months, Surya has received offers from IIM A, B & C. and scored a 770 on the GMAT. In this episode, he takes us through the pattern and difficulty level of both these exams while also sharing some valuable tips from his own preparation journey. We also talk about the infamous IIM interviews, and Surya shares some pointers on how one can go about preparing for them. If you're someone looking to ace these entrance exams and secure an MBA admit (or just have a good laugh), this is the episode for you. For queries related to CAT and GMAT prep, you can reach out to Surya at surya.sureshiitm@gmail.com

Today we talk to Shubhra Raje, Academic and Architect…and also the daughter of Anant Raje, faculty member of CEPT in Ahmedabad and an architect who worked closely with Louis Kahn on the IIM project. Today, we focus the conversation on Shubhra’s relationship with her father, how he has influenced her life and how this relationship has been formative in her own architectural and creative identity.                                                                                      

Old Testament: Joshua 14–15 Joshua 14–15 (Listen) The Inheritance West of the Jordan 14 These are the inheritances that the people of Israel received in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest and Joshua the son of Nun and the heads of the fathers’ houses of the tribes of the people of Israel gave them to inherit. 2 Their inheritance was by lot, just as the LORD had commanded by the hand of Moses for the nine and one-half tribes. 3 For Moses had given an inheritance to the two and one-half tribes beyond the Jordan, but to the Levites he gave no inheritance among them. 4 For the people of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim. And no portion was given to the Levites in the land, but only cities to dwell in, with their pasturelands for their livestock and their substance. 5 The people of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses; they allotted the land. Caleb’s Request and Inheritance 6 Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal. And Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, “You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me. 7 I was forty years old when Moses the servant of the LORD sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land, and I brought him word again as it was in my heart. 8 But my brothers who went up with me made the heart of the people melt; yet I wholly followed the LORD my God. 9 And Moses swore on that day, saying, ‘Surely the land on which your foot has trodden shall be an inheritance for you and your children forever, because you have wholly followed the LORD my God.’ 10 And now, behold, the LORD has kept me alive, just as he said, these forty-five years since the time that the LORD spoke this word to Moses, while Israel walked in the wilderness. And now, behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. 11 I am still as strong today as I was in the day that Moses sent me; my strength now is as my strength was then, for war and for going and coming. 12 So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said.” 13 Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. 14 Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. 15 Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba.1 (Arba2 was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war. The Allotment for Judah 15 The allotment for the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans reached southward to the boundary of Edom, to the wilderness of Zin at the farthest south. 2 And their south boundary ran from the end of the Salt Sea, from the bay that faces southward. 3 It goes out southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, passes along to Zin, and goes up south of Kadesh-barnea, along by Hezron, up to Addar, turns about to Karka, 4 passes along to Azmon, goes out by the Brook of Egypt, and comes to its end at the sea. This shall be your south boundary. 5 And the east boundary is the Salt Sea, to the mouth of the Jordan. And the boundary on the north side runs from the bay of the sea at the mouth of the Jordan. 6 And the boundary goes up to Beth-hoglah and passes along north of Beth-arabah. And the boundary goes up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben. 7 And the boundary goes up to Debir from the Valley of Achor, and so northward, turning toward Gilgal, which is opposite the ascent of Adummim, which is on the south side of the valley. And the boundary passes along to the waters of En-shemesh and ends at En-rogel. 8 Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem). And the boundary goes up to the top of the mountain that lies over against the Valley of Hinnom, on the west, at the northern end of the Valley of Rephaim. 9 Then the boundary extends from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Nephtoah, and from there to the cities of Mount Ephron. Then the boundary bends around to Baalah (that is, Kiriath-jearim). 10 And the boundary circles west of Baalah to Mount Seir, passes along to the northern shoulder of Mount Jearim (that is, Chesalon), and goes down to Beth-shemesh and passes along by Timnah. 11 The boundary goes out to the shoulder of the hill north of Ekron, then the boundary bends around to Shikkeron and passes along to Mount Baalah and goes out to Jabneel. Then the boundary comes to an end at the sea. 12 And the west boundary was the Great Sea with its coastline. This is the boundary around the people of Judah according to their clans. 13 According to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, he gave to Caleb the son of Jephunneh a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath-arba, that is, Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak). 14 And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. 15 And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath-sepher. 16 And Caleb said, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher and captures it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife.” 17 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, captured it. And he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife. 18 When she came to him, she urged him to ask her father for a field. And she got off her donkey, and Caleb said to her, “What do you want?” 19 She said to him, “Give me a blessing. Since you have given me the land of the Negeb, give me also springs of water.” And he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. 20 This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans. 21 The cities belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah in the extreme south, toward the boundary of Edom, were Kabzeel, Eder, Jagur, 22 Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, 23 Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, 24 Ziph, Telem, Bealoth, 25 Hazor-hadattah, Kerioth-hezron (that is, Hazor), 26 Amam, Shema, Moladah, 27 Hazar-gaddah, Heshmon, Beth-pelet, 28 Hazar-shual, Beersheba, Biziothiah, 29 Baalah, Iim, Ezem, 30 Eltolad, Chesil, Hormah, 31 Ziklag, Madmannah, Sansannah, 32 Lebaoth, Shilhim, Ain, and Rimmon: in all, twenty-nine cities with their villages. 33 And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34 Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages. 37 Zenan, Hadashah, Migdal-gad, 38 Dilean, Mizpeh, Joktheel, 39 Lachish, Bozkath, Eglon, 40 Cabbon, Lahmam, Chitlish, 41 Gederoth, Beth-dagon, Naamah, and Makkedah: sixteen cities with their villages. 42 Libnah, Ether, Ashan, 43 Iphtah, Ashnah, Nezib, 44 Keilah, Achzib, and Mareshah: nine cities with their villages. 45 Ekron, with its towns and its villages; 46 from Ekron to the sea, all that were by the side of Ashdod, with their villages. 47 Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its towns and its villages; to the Brook of Egypt, and the Great Sea with its coastline. 48 And in the hill country, Shamir, Jattir, Socoh, 49 Dannah, Kiriath-sannah (that is, Debir), 50 Anab, Eshtemoh, Anim, 51 Goshen, Holon, and Giloh: eleven cities with their villages. 52 Arab, Dumah, Eshan, 53 Janim, Beth-tappuah, Aphekah, 54 Humtah, Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron), and Zior: nine cities with their villages. 55 Maon, Carmel, Ziph, Juttah, 56 Jezreel, Jokdeam, Zanoah, 57 Kain, Gibeah, and Timnah: ten cities with their villages. 58 Halhul, Beth-zur, Gedor, 59 Maarath, Beth-anoth, and Eltekon: six cities with their villages. 60 Kiriath-baal (that is, Kiriath-jearim), and Rabbah: two cities with their villages. 61 In the wilderness, Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah, 62 Nibshan, the City of Salt, and Engedi: six cities with their villages. 63 But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day. Footnotes [1] 14:15 Kiriath-arba means the city of Arba [2] 14:15 Hebrew He (ESV) New Testament: John 9 John 9 (Listen) Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind 9 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6 Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man’s eyes with the mud 7 and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing. 8 The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” 9 Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.” 10 So they said to him, “Then how were your eyes opened?” 11 He answered, “The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed and received my sight.” 12 They said to him, “Where is he?” He said, “I do not know.” 13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14 Now it was a Sabbath day when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. 15 So the Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.” 16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them. 17 So they said again to the blind man, “What do you say about him, since he has opened your eyes?” He said, “He is a prophet.” 18 The Jews1 did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19 and asked them, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?” 20 His parents answered, “We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. 21 But how he now sees we do not know, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself.” 22 (His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone should confess Jesus2 to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.) 23 Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.” 24 So for the second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him, “Give glory to God. We know that this man is a sinner.” 25 He answered, “Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 They said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become his disciples?” 28 And they reviled him, saying, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he comes from.” 30 The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. 32 Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out. 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”3 36 He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” 38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him. 39 Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.” 40 Some of the Pharisees near him heard these things, and said to him, “Are we also blind?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no guilt;4 but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains. Footnotes [1] 9:18 Greek Ioudaioi probably refers here to Jewish religious leaders, and others under their influence, in that time; also verse 22 [2] 9:22 Greek him [3] 9:35 Some manuscripts the Son of God [4] 9:41 Greek you would not have sin (ESV) Psalm: Psalm 103 Psalm 103 (Listen) Bless the Lord, O My Soul Of David. 103   Bless the LORD, O my soul,    and all that is within me,    bless his holy name!2   Bless the LORD, O my soul,    and forget not all his benefits,3   who forgives all your iniquity,    who heals all your diseases,4   who redeems your life from the pit,    who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,5   who satisfies you with good    so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. 6   The LORD works righteousness    and justice for all who are oppressed.7   He made known his ways to Moses,    his acts to the people of Israel.8   The LORD is merciful and gracious,    slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.9   He will not always chide,    nor will he keep his anger forever.10   He does not deal with us according to our sins,    nor repay us according to our iniquities.11   For as high as the heavens are above the earth,    so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;12   as far as the east is from the west,    so far does he remove our transgressions from us.13   As a father shows compassion to his children,    so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.14   For he knows our frame;1    he remembers that we are dust. 15   As for man, his days are like grass;    he flourishes like a flower of the field;16   for the wind passes over it, and it is gone,    and its place knows it no more.17   But the steadfast love of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him,    and his righteousness to children’s children,18   to those who keep his covenant    and remember to do his commandments.19   The LORD has established his throne in the heavens,    and his kingdom rules over all. 20   Bless the LORD, O you his angels,    you mighty ones who do his word,    obeying the voice of his word!21   Bless the LORD, all his hosts,    his ministers, who do his will!22   Bless the LORD, all his works,    in all places of his dominion.  Bless the LORD, O my soul! Footnotes [1] 103:14 Or knows how we are formed (ESV) Proverb: Proverbs 14:20–21 Proverbs 14:20–21 (Listen) 20   The poor is disliked even by his neighbor,    but the rich has many friends.21   Whoever despises his neighbor is a sinner,    but blessed is he who is generous to the poor. (ESV)

Old Testament: Joshua 14–15 Joshua 14–15 (Listen) The Inheritance West of the Jordan 14 These are the inheritances that the people of Israel received in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest and Joshua the son of Nun and the heads of the fathers’ houses of the tribes of the people of Israel gave them to inherit. 2 Their inheritance was by lot, just as the LORD had commanded by the hand of Moses for the nine and one-half tribes. 3 For Moses had given an inheritance to the two and one-half tribes beyond the Jordan, but to the Levites he gave no inheritance among them. 4 For the people of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim. And no portion was given to the Levites in the land, but only cities to dwell in, with their pasturelands for their livestock and their substance. 5 The people of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses; they allotted the land. Caleb’s Request and Inheritance 6 Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal. And Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, “You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me. 7 I was forty years old when Moses the servant of the LORD sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land, and I brought him word again as it was in my heart. 8 But my brothers who went up with me made the heart of the people melt; yet I wholly followed the LORD my God. 9 And Moses swore on that day, saying, ‘Surely the land on which your foot has trodden shall be an inheritance for you and your children forever, because you have wholly followed the LORD my God.’ 10 And now, behold, the LORD has kept me alive, just as he said, these forty-five years since the time that the LORD spoke this word to Moses, while Israel walked in the wilderness. And now, behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. 11 I am still as strong today as I was in the day that Moses sent me; my strength now is as my strength was then, for war and for going and coming. 12 So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said.” 13 Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. 14 Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. 15 Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba.1 (Arba2 was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war. The Allotment for Judah 15 The allotment for the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans reached southward to the boundary of Edom, to the wilderness of Zin at the farthest south. 2 And their south boundary ran from the end of the Salt Sea, from the bay that faces southward. 3 It goes out southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, passes along to Zin, and goes up south of Kadesh-barnea, along by Hezron, up to Addar, turns about to Karka, 4 passes along to Azmon, goes out by the Brook of Egypt, and comes to its end at the sea. This shall be your south boundary. 5 And the east boundary is the Salt Sea, to the mouth of the Jordan. And the boundary on the north side runs from the bay of the sea at the mouth of the Jordan. 6 And the boundary goes up to Beth-hoglah and passes along north of Beth-arabah. And the boundary goes up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben. 7 And the boundary goes up to Debir from the Valley of Achor, and so northward, turning toward Gilgal, which is opposite the ascent of Adummim, which is on the south side of the valley. And the boundary passes along to the waters of En-shemesh and ends at En-rogel. 8 Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem). And the boundary goes up to the top of the mountain that lies over against the Valley of Hinnom, on the west, at the northern end of the Valley of Rephaim. 9 Then the boundary extends from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Nephtoah, and from there to the cities of Mount Ephron. Then the boundary bends around to Baalah (that is, Kiriath-jearim). 10 And the boundary circles west of Baalah to Mount Seir, passes along to the northern shoulder of Mount Jearim (that is, Chesalon), and goes down to Beth-shemesh and passes along by Timnah. 11 The boundary goes out to the shoulder of the hill north of Ekron, then the boundary bends around to Shikkeron and passes along to Mount Baalah and goes out to Jabneel. Then the boundary comes to an end at the sea. 12 And the west boundary was the Great Sea with its coastline. This is the boundary around the people of Judah according to their clans. 13 According to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, he gave to Caleb the son of Jephunneh a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath-arba, that is, Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak). 14 And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. 15 And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath-sepher. 16 And Caleb said, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher and captures it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife.” 17 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, captured it. And he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife. 18 When she came to him, she urged him to ask her father for a field. And she got off her donkey, and Caleb said to her, “What do you want?” 19 She said to him, “Give me a blessing. Since you have given me the land of the Negeb, give me also springs of water.” And he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. 20 This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans. 21 The cities belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah in the extreme south, toward the boundary of Edom, were Kabzeel, Eder, Jagur, 22 Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, 23 Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, 24 Ziph, Telem, Bealoth, 25 Hazor-hadattah, Kerioth-hezron (that is, Hazor), 26 Amam, Shema, Moladah, 27 Hazar-gaddah, Heshmon, Beth-pelet, 28 Hazar-shual, Beersheba, Biziothiah, 29 Baalah, Iim, Ezem, 30 Eltolad, Chesil, Hormah, 31 Ziklag, Madmannah, Sansannah, 32 Lebaoth, Shilhim, Ain, and Rimmon: in all, twenty-nine cities with their villages. 33 And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34 Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages. 37 Zenan, Hadashah, Migdal-gad, 38 Dilean, Mizpeh, Joktheel, 39 Lachish, Bozkath, Eglon, 40 Cabbon, Lahmam, Chitlish, 41 Gederoth, Beth-dagon, Naamah, and Makkedah: sixteen cities with their villages. 42 Libnah, Ether, Ashan, 43 Iphtah, Ashnah, Nezib, 44 Keilah, Achzib, and Mareshah: nine cities with their villages. 45 Ekron, with its towns and its villages; 46 from Ekron to the sea, all that were by the side of Ashdod, with their villages. 47 Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its towns and its villages; to the Brook of Egypt, and the Great Sea with its coastline. 48 And in the hill country, Shamir, Jattir, Socoh, 49 Dannah, Kiriath-sannah (that is, Debir), 50 Anab, Eshtemoh, Anim, 51 Goshen, Holon, and Giloh: eleven cities with their villages. 52 Arab, Dumah, Eshan, 53 Janim, Beth-tappuah, Aphekah, 54 Humtah, Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron), and Zior: nine cities with their villages. 55 Maon, Carmel, Ziph, Juttah, 56 Jezreel, Jokdeam, Zanoah, 57 Kain, Gibeah, and Timnah: ten cities with their villages. 58 Halhul, Beth-zur, Gedor, 59 Maarath, Beth-anoth, and Eltekon: six cities with their villages. 60 Kiriath-baal (that is, Kiriath-jearim), and Rabbah: two cities with their villages. 61 In the wilderness, Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah, 62 Nibshan, the City of Salt, and Engedi: six cities with their villages. 63 But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day. Footnotes [1] 14:15 Kiriath-arba means the city of Arba [2] 14:15 Hebrew He (ESV) Psalm: Psalm 103 Psalm 103 (Listen) Bless the Lord, O My Soul Of David. 103   Bless the LORD, O my soul,    and all that is within me,    bless his holy name!2   Bless the LORD, O my soul,    and forget not all his benefits,3   who forgives all your iniquity,    who heals all your diseases,4   who redeems your life from the pit,    who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,5   who satisfies you with good    so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. 6   The LORD works righteousness    and justice for all who are oppressed.7   He made known his ways to Moses,    his acts to the people of Israel.8   The LORD is merciful and gracious,    slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.9   He will not always chide,    nor will he keep his anger forever.10   He does not deal with us according to our sins,    nor repay us according to our iniquities.11   For as high as the heavens are above the earth,    so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;12   as far as the east is from the west,    so far does he remove our transgressions from us.13   As a father shows compassion to his children,    so the LORD shows compassion to those who fear him.14   For he knows our frame;1    he remembers that we are dust. 15   As for man, his days are like grass;    he flourishes like a flower of the field;16   for the wind passes over it, and it is gone,    and its place knows it no more.17   But the steadfast love of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him,    and his righteousness to children’s children,18   to those who keep his covenant    and remember to do his commandments.19   The LORD has established his throne in the heavens,    and his kingdom rules over all. 20   Bless the LORD, O you his angels,    you mighty ones who do his word,    obeying the voice of his word!21   Bless the LORD, all his hosts,    his ministers, who do his will!22   Bless the LORD, all his works,    in all places of his dominion.  Bless the LORD, O my soul! Footnotes [1] 103:14 Or knows how we are formed (ESV) New Testament: Acts 28 Acts 28 (Listen) Paul on Malta 28 After we were brought safely through, we then learned that the island was called Malta. 2 The native people1 showed us unusual kindness, for they kindled a fire and welcomed us all, because it had begun to rain and was cold. 3 When Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and put them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened on his hand. 4 When the native people saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, “No doubt this man is a murderer. Though he has escaped from the sea, Justice2 has not allowed him to live.” 5 He, however, shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. 6 They were waiting for him to swell up or suddenly fall down dead. But when they had waited a long time and saw no misfortune come to him, they changed their minds and said that he was a god. 7 Now in the neighborhood of that place were lands belonging to the chief man of the island, named Publius, who received us and entertained us hospitably for three days. 8 It happened that the father of Publius lay sick with fever and dysentery. And Paul visited him and prayed, and putting his hands on him, healed him. 9 And when this had taken place, the rest of the people on the island who had diseases also came and were cured. 10 They also honored us greatly,3 and when we were about to sail, they put on board whatever we needed. Paul Arrives at Rome 11 After three months we set sail in a ship that had wintered in the island, a ship of Alexandria, with the twin gods4 as a figurehead. 12 Putting in at Syracuse, we stayed there for three days. 13 And from there we made a circuit and arrived at Rhegium. And after one day a south wind sprang up, and on the second day we came to Puteoli. 14 There we found brothers5 and were invited to stay with them for seven days. And so we came to Rome. 15 And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage. 16 And when we came into Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who guarded him. Paul in Rome 17 After three days he called together the local leaders of the Jews, and when they had gathered, he said to them, “Brothers, though I had done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans. 18 When they had examined me, they wished to set me at liberty, because there was no reason for the death penalty in my case. 19 But because the Jews objected, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar—though I had no charge to bring against my nation. 20 For this reason, therefore, I have asked to see you and speak with you, since it is because of the hope of Israel that I am wearing this chain.” 21 And they said to him, “We have received no letters from Judea about you, and none of the brothers coming here has reported or spoken any evil about you. 22 But we desire to hear from you what your views are, for with regard to this sect we know that everywhere it is spoken against.” 23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. 24 And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved. 25 And disagreeing among themselves, they departed after Paul had made one statement: “The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet: 26   “‘Go to this people, and say,  “You will indeed hear but never understand,    and you will indeed see but never perceive.”27   For this people’s heart has grown dull,    and with their ears they can barely hear,    and their eyes they have closed;  lest they should see with their eyes    and hear with their ears  and understand with their heart    and turn, and I would heal them.’ 28 Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.”6 30 He lived there two whole years at his own expense,7 and welcomed all who came to him, 31 proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance. Footnotes [1] 28:2 Greek barbaroi (that is, non–Greek speakers); also verse 4 [2] 28:4 Or justice [3] 28:10 Greek honored us with many honors [4] 28:11 That is, the Greek gods Castor and Pollux [5] 28:14 Or brothers and sisters; also verses 15, 21 [6] 28:28 Some manuscripts add verse 29: And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, having much dispute among themselves [7] 28:30 Or in his own hired dwelling (ESV)

In this episode #94, the hosts Naveen Samala & Sudhakar Nagandla interacted with another guest Sridhar Dr. Sridhar Guda is currently working as a Professor at IIM Kozhikode with the aim to make the Sales Profession nobler. He is passionately learning and advocating best practices in Selling, Rural Marketing, and  Distribution Channels. Before joining IIM, Dr. Sridhar worked in other prestigious institutions like the Institute of Technology & Management Warangal, Marico Limited in addition to a stint as a visiting professor with AIT Bangkok.  Dr. Sridhar's Insights: Career journey – becoming a professor at IIMK Why Dr. Sridhar has chosen Sales as a specialization Evolution of Sales in the last few decades How pandemic has influenced the salesforce productivity? Tips for accelerating the productivity of salesforce, positively Sridhar's candid answers to surprise RAPID fire questions One piece of advice to those planning to make big in their career & life Enjoy the episode! Connect with Dr. Sridhar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sridhar-guda-2407914/ Dear #TGV Audience…Here is a chance to broadcast yourself

Achievement is self-centric, but contribution is all about creating impact and building up values for a larger goal. Such is the outlook of our guest on the latest episode of Founder Thesis.  Belonging to a humble background, Amitava Saha, Co-founder and CEO, Xpressbees, is a first-generation entrepreneur and has completed his engineering from the prestigious IIT-BHU campus and MBA from IIM, Lucknow.  In a candid conversation with Akshay Datt, he tells us about how his well rewarding corporate job was no match to his hunger for contributing more to a smaller organization. In this pursuit, he teamed up with Supam Maheshwari of Brainvisa Technologies, one of the largest e-learning ventures in India. But one thing led to another.  Amitava recalls buying things for his infant daughter from the countries he visited for business trips. This made him aware of the huge opportunity for an online platform that would give Indian parents access to the best baby care brands. This is how the seeds for FirstCry were sown.  He further talks about how the commitment to providing an excellent delivery experience to young mothers led to the birth of Xpressbees in 2015, which at present, is delivering in more than 2600 cities across India.   Tune in to this episode to hear Amitava speak about how Xpressbess is disrupting the Indian supply chain ecosystem with fast and reliable delivery and outstanding customer service.   Key takeaways: Operational excellence is everything. Prompt customer service = Happy customer How technology brings efficiency

Riddhi Doshi trains and coaches corporate leaders, educators and parents on issues of mental health and behavior. She is an internationally certified Parenting Counselor.In the  past 15+ years she has conducted 2540+ open workshops, delivered 87000+ hours of talks, 53000+ hours of counseling sessions covering 59000+ students and 62,000+ women from various fields. Parenting sessions conducted by Riddhi are housefull and recently she completed her 366th Parenting session.She has been a speaker and advisor at various institutions and organizations including IIM, Ahmedabad, Rotary Club, Tata Power, Larson & Toubro and The Time of India.She holds an MBA in HRD, LLM and numerous other professional certifications from prestigious international institutions including University of Cambridge, BSY University, London, City & Guilds, London, Tata Institute of Social Sciences and NMIMS, Mumbai.She has been awarded with “National Award for Cultural Activities by AVANTIKA- Delhi”, “Excellence in Wellness”, “Young Entrepreneurs Award”, “Self Made Diva Award” among various others.With a mission to “make corporate leaders, educators and parents empowered and more aware about mental health & wellness”, Riddhi regularly gives interviews on leading media platforms.For more of Riddhi Doshi:www.linkedin.com/in/riddhidoshiiwww.linkedin.com/company/rhhyns-academy-pvt-ltdwww.facebook.com/riddhidoshiwww.facebook.com/RhhynsAcademy/www. instagram.com/riddhidoshipMore Of Rozzamindset:Visit my website:https://www.rozzamindset.com/​Follow me on Instagram:​https://www.instagram.com/rozzamindset/Connect with me on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-rozalewicz-7b4a134a/

1 These are the journeys of the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt with their armies under the hand of Moses and Aaron. 2 And Moses wrote their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD: and these are their journeys according to their goings out. 3 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians. 4 For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments. 5 And the children of Israel removed from Rameses, and pitched in Succoth. 6 And they departed from Succoth, and pitched in Etham, which is in the edge of the wilderness. 7 And they removed from Etham, and turned again unto Pihahiroth, which is before Baalzephon: and they pitched before Migdol. 8 And they departed from before Pihahiroth, and passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness, and went three days' journey in the wilderness of Etham, and pitched in Marah. 9 And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore and ten palm trees; and they pitched there. 10 And they removed from Elim, and encamped by the Red sea. 11 And they removed from the Red sea, and encamped in the wilderness of Sin. 12 And they took their journey out of the wilderness of Sin, and encamped in Dophkah. 13 And they departed from Dophkah, and encamped in Alush. 14 And they removed from Alush, and encamped at Rephidim, where was no water for the people to drink. 15 And they departed from Rephidim, and pitched in the wilderness of Sinai. 16 And they removed from the desert of Sinai, and pitched at Kibrothhattaavah. 17 And they departed from Kibrothhattaavah, and encamped at Hazeroth. 18 And they departed from Hazeroth, and pitched in Rithmah. 19 And they departed from Rithmah, and pitched at Rimmonparez. 20 And they departed from Rimmonparez, and pitched in Libnah. 21 And they removed from Libnah, and pitched at Rissah. 22 And they journeyed from Rissah, and pitched in Kehelathah. 23 And they went from Kehelathah, and pitched in mount Shapher. 24 And they removed from mount Shapher, and encamped in Haradah. 25 And they removed from Haradah, and pitched in Makheloth. 26 And they removed from Makheloth, and encamped at Tahath. 27 And they departed from Tahath, and pitched at Tarah. 28 And they removed from Tarah, and pitched in Mithcah. 29 And they went from Mithcah, and pitched in Hashmonah. 30 And they departed from Hashmonah, and encamped at Moseroth. 31 And they departed from Moseroth, and pitched in Benejaakan. 32 And they removed from Benejaakan, and encamped at Horhagidgad. 33 And they went from Horhagidgad, and pitched in Jotbathah. 34 And they removed from Jotbathah, and encamped at Ebronah. 35 And they departed from Ebronah, and encamped at Eziongaber. 36 And they removed from Eziongaber, and pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh. 37 And they removed from Kadesh, and pitched in mount Hor, in the edge of the land of Edom. 38 And Aaron the priest went up into mount Hor at the commandment of the LORD, and died there, in the fortieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the first day of the fifth month. 39 And Aaron was an hundred and twenty and three years old when he died in mount Hor. 40 And king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south in the land of Canaan, heard of the coming of the children of Israel. 41 And they departed from mount Hor, and pitched in Zalmonah. 42 And they departed from Zalmonah, and pitched in Punon. 43 And they departed from Punon, and pitched in Oboth. 44 And they departed from Oboth, and pitched in Ijeabarim, in the border of Moab. 45 And they departed from Iim, and pitched in Dibongad. 46 And they removed from Dibongad, and encamped in Almondiblathaim. 47 And they removed from Almondiblathaim, and pitched in the mountains of Abarim, before Nebo. 48 And they departed from the mountains of Abarim, and pitched in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho. 49 And they pitched by Jordan, from Bethjesimoth even unto Abelshittim in the plains of Moab. 50 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 51 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; 52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: 53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. 54 And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. 55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. 56 Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.

Morning: Joshua 14–15 Joshua 14–15 (Listen) The Inheritance West of the Jordan 14 These are the inheritances that the people of Israel received in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest and Joshua the son of Nun and the heads of the fathers’ houses of the tribes of the people of Israel gave them to inherit. 2 Their inheritance was by lot, just as the LORD had commanded by the hand of Moses for the nine and one-half tribes. 3 For Moses had given an inheritance to the two and one-half tribes beyond the Jordan, but to the Levites he gave no inheritance among them. 4 For the people of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim. And no portion was given to the Levites in the land, but only cities to dwell in, with their pasturelands for their livestock and their substance. 5 The people of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses; they allotted the land. Caleb’s Request and Inheritance 6 Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal. And Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, “You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me. 7 I was forty years old when Moses the servant of the LORD sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land, and I brought him word again as it was in my heart. 8 But my brothers who went up with me made the heart of the people melt; yet I wholly followed the LORD my God. 9 And Moses swore on that day, saying, ‘Surely the land on which your foot has trodden shall be an inheritance for you and your children forever, because you have wholly followed the LORD my God.’ 10 And now, behold, the LORD has kept me alive, just as he said, these forty-five years since the time that the LORD spoke this word to Moses, while Israel walked in the wilderness. And now, behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. 11 I am still as strong today as I was in the day that Moses sent me; my strength now is as my strength was then, for war and for going and coming. 12 So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said.” 13 Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. 14 Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. 15 Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba.1 (Arba2 was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war. The Allotment for Judah 15 The allotment for the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans reached southward to the boundary of Edom, to the wilderness of Zin at the farthest south. 2 And their south boundary ran from the end of the Salt Sea, from the bay that faces southward. 3 It goes out southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, passes along to Zin, and goes up south of Kadesh-barnea, along by Hezron, up to Addar, turns about to Karka, 4 passes along to Azmon, goes out by the Brook of Egypt, and comes to its end at the sea. This shall be your south boundary. 5 And the east boundary is the Salt Sea, to the mouth of the Jordan. And the boundary on the north side runs from the bay of the sea at the mouth of the Jordan. 6 And the boundary goes up to Beth-hoglah and passes along north of Beth-arabah. And the boundary goes up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben. 7 And the boundary goes up to Debir from the Valley of Achor, and so northward, turning toward Gilgal, which is opposite the ascent of Adummim, which is on the south side of the valley. And the boundary passes along to the waters of En-shemesh and ends at En-rogel. 8 Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem). And the boundary goes up to the top of the mountain that lies over against the Valley of Hinnom, on the west, at the northern end of the Valley of Rephaim. 9 Then the boundary extends from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Nephtoah, and from there to the cities of Mount Ephron. Then the boundary bends around to Baalah (that is, Kiriath-jearim). 10 And the boundary circles west of Baalah to Mount Seir, passes along to the northern shoulder of Mount Jearim (that is, Chesalon), and goes down to Beth-shemesh and passes along by Timnah. 11 The boundary goes out to the shoulder of the hill north of Ekron, then the boundary bends around to Shikkeron and passes along to Mount Baalah and goes out to Jabneel. Then the boundary comes to an end at the sea. 12 And the west boundary was the Great Sea with its coastline. This is the boundary around the people of Judah according to their clans. 13 According to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, he gave to Caleb the son of Jephunneh a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath-arba, that is, Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak). 14 And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. 15 And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath-sepher. 16 And Caleb said, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher and captures it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife.” 17 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, captured it. And he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife. 18 When she came to him, she urged him to ask her father for a field. And she got off her donkey, and Caleb said to her, “What do you want?” 19 She said to him, “Give me a blessing. Since you have given me the land of the Negeb, give me also springs of water.” And he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. 20 This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans. 21 The cities belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah in the extreme south, toward the boundary of Edom, were Kabzeel, Eder, Jagur, 22 Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, 23 Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, 24 Ziph, Telem, Bealoth, 25 Hazor-hadattah, Kerioth-hezron (that is, Hazor), 26 Amam, Shema, Moladah, 27 Hazar-gaddah, Heshmon, Beth-pelet, 28 Hazar-shual, Beersheba, Biziothiah, 29 Baalah, Iim, Ezem, 30 Eltolad, Chesil, Hormah, 31 Ziklag, Madmannah, Sansannah, 32 Lebaoth, Shilhim, Ain, and Rimmon: in all, twenty-nine cities with their villages. 33 And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34 Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages. 37 Zenan, Hadashah, Migdal-gad, 38 Dilean, Mizpeh, Joktheel, 39 Lachish, Bozkath, Eglon, 40 Cabbon, Lahmam, Chitlish, 41 Gederoth, Beth-dagon, Naamah, and Makkedah: sixteen cities with their villages. 42 Libnah, Ether, Ashan, 43 Iphtah, Ashnah, Nezib, 44 Keilah, Achzib, and Mareshah: nine cities with their villages. 45 Ekron, with its towns and its villages; 46 from Ekron to the sea, all that were by the side of Ashdod, with their villages. 47 Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its towns and its villages; to the Brook of Egypt, and the Great Sea with its coastline. 48 And in the hill country, Shamir, Jattir, Socoh, 49 Dannah, Kiriath-sannah (that is, Debir), 50 Anab, Eshtemoh, Anim, 51 Goshen, Holon, and Giloh: eleven cities with their villages. 52 Arab, Dumah, Eshan, 53 Janim, Beth-tappuah, Aphekah, 54 Humtah, Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron), and Zior: nine cities with their villages. 55 Maon, Carmel, Ziph, Juttah, 56 Jezreel, Jokdeam, Zanoah, 57 Kain, Gibeah, and Timnah: ten cities with their villages. 58 Halhul, Beth-zur, Gedor, 59 Maarath, Beth-anoth, and Eltekon: six cities with their villages. 60 Kiriath-baal (that is, Kiriath-jearim), and Rabbah: two cities with their villages. 61 In the wilderness, Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah, 62 Nibshan, the City of Salt, and Engedi: six cities with their villages. 63 But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day. Footnotes [1] 14:15 Kiriath-arba means the city of Arba [2] 14:15 Hebrew He (ESV) Evening: Luke 4:33–44 Luke 4:33–44 (Listen) 33 And in the synagogue there was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice, 34 “Ha!1 What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.” 35 But Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent and come out of him!” And when the demon had thrown him down in their midst, he came out of him, having done him no harm. 36 And they were all amazed and said to one another, “What is this word? For with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out!” 37 And reports about him went out into every place in the surrounding region. Jesus Heals Many 38 And he arose and left the synagogue and entered Simon’s house. Now Simon’s mother-in-law was ill with a high fever, and they appealed to him on her behalf. 39 And he stood over her and rebuked the fever, and it left her, and immediately she rose and began to serve them. 40 Now when the sun was setting, all those who had any who were sick with various diseases brought them to him, and he laid his hands on every one of them and healed them. 41 And demons also came out of many, crying, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ. Jesus Preaches in Synagogues 42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desolate place. And the people sought him and came to him, and would have kept him from leaving them, 43 but he said to them, “I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose.” 44 And he was preaching in the synagogues of Judea.2 Footnotes [1] 4:34 Or Leave us alone [2] 4:44 Some manuscripts Galilee (ESV)

Joshua 12–15 Joshua 12–15 (Listen) Kings Defeated by Moses 12 Now these are the kings of the land whom the people of Israel defeated and took possession of their land beyond the Jordan toward the sunrise, from the Valley of the Arnon to Mount Hermon, with all the Arabah eastward: 2 Sihon king of the Amorites who lived at Heshbon and ruled from Aroer, which is on the edge of the Valley of the Arnon, and from the middle of the valley as far as the river Jabbok, the boundary of the Ammonites, that is, half of Gilead, 3 and the Arabah to the Sea of Chinneroth eastward, and in the direction of Beth-jeshimoth, to the Sea of the Arabah, the Salt Sea, southward to the foot of the slopes of Pisgah; 4 and Og1 king of Bashan, one of the remnant of the Rephaim, who lived at Ashtaroth and at Edrei 5 and ruled over Mount Hermon and Salecah and all Bashan to the boundary of the Geshurites and the Maacathites, and over half of Gilead to the boundary of Sihon king of Heshbon. 6 Moses, the servant of the LORD, and the people of Israel defeated them. And Moses the servant of the LORD gave their land for a possession to the Reubenites and the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh. Kings Defeated by Joshua 7 And these are the kings of the land whom Joshua and the people of Israel defeated on the west side of the Jordan, from Baal-gad in the Valley of Lebanon to Mount Halak, that rises toward Seir (and Joshua gave their land to the tribes of Israel as a possession according to their allotments, 8 in the hill country, in the lowland, in the Arabah, in the slopes, in the wilderness, and in the Negeb, the land of the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites): 9 the king of Jericho, one; the king of Ai, which is beside Bethel, one; 10 the king of Jerusalem, one; the king of Hebron, one; 11 the king of Jarmuth, one; the king of Lachish, one; 12 the king of Eglon, one; the king of Gezer, one; 13 the king of Debir, one; the king of Geder, one; 14 the king of Hormah, one; the king of Arad, one; 15 the king of Libnah, one; the king of Adullam, one; 16 the king of Makkedah, one; the king of Bethel, one; 17 the king of Tappuah, one; the king of Hepher, one; 18 the king of Aphek, one; the king of Lasharon, one; 19 the king of Madon, one; the king of Hazor, one; 20 the king of Shimron-meron, one; the king of Achshaph, one; 21 the king of Taanach, one; the king of Megiddo, one; 22 the king of Kedesh, one; the king of Jokneam in Carmel, one; 23 the king of Dor in Naphath-dor, one; the king of Goiim in Galilee,2 one; 24 the king of Tirzah, one: in all, thirty-one kings. Land Still to Be Conquered 13 Now Joshua was old and advanced in years, and the LORD said to him, “You are old and advanced in years, and there remains yet very much land to possess. 2 This is the land that yet remains: all the regions of the Philistines, and all those of the Geshurites 3 (from the Shihor, which is east of Egypt, northward to the boundary of Ekron, it is counted as Canaanite; there are five rulers of the Philistines, those of Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath, and Ekron), and those of the Avvim, 4 in the south, all the land of the Canaanites, and Mearah that belongs to the Sidonians, to Aphek, to the boundary of the Amorites, 5 and the land of the Gebalites, and all Lebanon, toward the sunrise, from Baal-gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo-hamath, 6 all the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon to Misrephoth-maim, even all the Sidonians. I myself will drive them out from before the people of Israel. Only allot the land to Israel for an inheritance, as I have commanded you. 7 Now therefore divide this land for an inheritance to the nine tribes and half the tribe of Manasseh.” The Inheritance East of the Jordan 8 With the other half of the tribe of Manasseh3 the Reubenites and the Gadites received their inheritance, which Moses gave them, beyond the Jordan eastward, as Moses the servant of the LORD gave them: 9 from Aroer, which is on the edge of the Valley of the Arnon, and the city that is in the middle of the valley, and all the tableland of Medeba as far as Dibon; 10 and all the cities of Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon, as far as the boundary of the Ammonites; 11 and Gilead, and the region of the Geshurites and Maacathites, and all Mount Hermon, and all Bashan to Salecah; 12 all the kingdom of Og in Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei (he alone was left of the remnant of the Rephaim); these Moses had struck and driven out. 13 Yet the people of Israel did not drive out the Geshurites or the Maacathites, but Geshur and Maacath dwell in the midst of Israel to this day. 14 To the tribe of Levi alone Moses gave no inheritance. The offerings by fire to the LORD God of Israel are their inheritance, as he said to him. 15 And Moses gave an inheritance to the tribe of the people of Reuben according to their clans. 16 So their territory was from Aroer, which is on the edge of the Valley of the Arnon, and the city that is in the middle of the valley, and all the tableland by Medeba; 17 with Heshbon, and all its cities that are in the tableland; Dibon, and Bamoth-baal, and Beth-baal-meon, 18 and Jahaz, and Kedemoth, and Mephaath, 19 and Kiriathaim, and Sibmah, and Zereth-shahar on the hill of the valley, 20 and Beth-peor, and the slopes of Pisgah, and Beth-jeshimoth, 21 that is, all the cities of the tableland, and all the kingdom of Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon, whom Moses defeated with the leaders of Midian, Evi and Rekem and Zur and Hur and Reba, the princes of Sihon, who lived in the land. 22 Balaam also, the son of Beor, the one who practiced divination, was killed with the sword by the people of Israel among the rest of their slain. 23 And the border of the people of Reuben was the Jordan as a boundary. This was the inheritance of the people of Reuben, according to their clans with their cities and villages. 24 Moses gave an inheritance also to the tribe of Gad, to the people of Gad, according to their clans. 25 Their territory was Jazer, and all the cities of Gilead, and half the land of the Ammonites, to Aroer, which is east of Rabbah, 26 and from Heshbon to Ramath-mizpeh and Betonim, and from Mahanaim to the territory of Debir,4 27 and in the valley Beth-haram, Beth-nimrah, Succoth, and Zaphon, the rest of the kingdom of Sihon king of Heshbon, having the Jordan as a boundary, to the lower end of the Sea of Chinnereth, eastward beyond the Jordan. 28 This is the inheritance of the people of Gad according to their clans, with their cities and villages. 29 And Moses gave an inheritance to the half-tribe of Manasseh. It was allotted to the half-tribe of the people of Manasseh according to their clans. 30 Their region extended from Mahanaim, through all Bashan, the whole kingdom of Og king of Bashan, and all the towns of Jair, which are in Bashan, sixty cities, 31 and half Gilead, and Ashtaroth, and Edrei, the cities of the kingdom of Og in Bashan. These were allotted to the people of Machir the son of Manasseh for the half of the people of Machir according to their clans. 32 These are the inheritances that Moses distributed in the plains of Moab, beyond the Jordan east of Jericho. 33 But to the tribe of Levi Moses gave no inheritance; the LORD God of Israel is their inheritance, just as he said to them. The Inheritance West of the Jordan 14 These are the inheritances that the people of Israel received in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest and Joshua the son of Nun and the heads of the fathers’ houses of the tribes of the people of Israel gave them to inherit. 2 Their inheritance was by lot, just as the LORD had commanded by the hand of Moses for the nine and one-half tribes. 3 For Moses had given an inheritance to the two and one-half tribes beyond the Jordan, but to the Levites he gave no inheritance among them. 4 For the people of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim. And no portion was given to the Levites in the land, but only cities to dwell in, with their pasturelands for their livestock and their substance. 5 The people of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses; they allotted the land. Caleb’s Request and Inheritance 6 Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal. And Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, “You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me. 7 I was forty years old when Moses the servant of the LORD sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land, and I brought him word again as it was in my heart. 8 But my brothers who went up with me made the heart of the people melt; yet I wholly followed the LORD my God. 9 And Moses swore on that day, saying, ‘Surely the land on which your foot has trodden shall be an inheritance for you and your children forever, because you have wholly followed the LORD my God.’ 10 And now, behold, the LORD has kept me alive, just as he said, these forty-five years since the time that the LORD spoke this word to Moses, while Israel walked in the wilderness. And now, behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. 11 I am still as strong today as I was in the day that Moses sent me; my strength now is as my strength was then, for war and for going and coming. 12 So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said.” 13 Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. 14 Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. 15 Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba.5 (Arba6 was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war. The Allotment for Judah 15 The allotment for the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans reached southward to the boundary of Edom, to the wilderness of Zin at the farthest south. 2 And their south boundary ran from the end of the Salt Sea, from the bay that faces southward. 3 It goes out southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, passes along to Zin, and goes up south of Kadesh-barnea, along by Hezron, up to Addar, turns about to Karka, 4 passes along to Azmon, goes out by the Brook of Egypt, and comes to its end at the sea. This shall be your south boundary. 5 And the east boundary is the Salt Sea, to the mouth of the Jordan. And the boundary on the north side runs from the bay of the sea at the mouth of the Jordan. 6 And the boundary goes up to Beth-hoglah and passes along north of Beth-arabah. And the boundary goes up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben. 7 And the boundary goes up to Debir from the Valley of Achor, and so northward, turning toward Gilgal, which is opposite the ascent of Adummim, which is on the south side of the valley. And the boundary passes along to the waters of En-shemesh and ends at En-rogel. 8 Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem). And the boundary goes up to the top of the mountain that lies over against the Valley of Hinnom, on the west, at the northern end of the Valley of Rephaim. 9 Then the boundary extends from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Nephtoah, and from there to the cities of Mount Ephron. Then the boundary bends around to Baalah (that is, Kiriath-jearim). 10 And the boundary circles west of Baalah to Mount Seir, passes along to the northern shoulder of Mount Jearim (that is, Chesalon), and goes down to Beth-shemesh and passes along by Timnah. 11 The boundary goes out to the shoulder of the hill north of Ekron, then the boundary bends around to Shikkeron and passes along to Mount Baalah and goes out to Jabneel. Then the boundary comes to an end at the sea. 12 And the west boundary was the Great Sea with its coastline. This is the boundary around the people of Judah according to their clans. 13 According to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, he gave to Caleb the son of Jephunneh a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath-arba, that is, Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak). 14 And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. 15 And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath-sepher. 16 And Caleb said, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher and captures it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife.” 17 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, captured it. And he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife. 18 When she came to him, she urged him to ask her father for a field. And she got off her donkey, and Caleb said to her, “What do you want?” 19 She said to him, “Give me a blessing. Since you have given me the land of the Negeb, give me also springs of water.” And he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. 20 This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans. 21 The cities belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah in the extreme south, toward the boundary of Edom, were Kabzeel, Eder, Jagur, 22 Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, 23 Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, 24 Ziph, Telem, Bealoth, 25 Hazor-hadattah, Kerioth-hezron (that is, Hazor), 26 Amam, Shema, Moladah, 27 Hazar-gaddah, Heshmon, Beth-pelet, 28 Hazar-shual, Beersheba, Biziothiah, 29 Baalah, Iim, Ezem, 30 Eltolad, Chesil, Hormah, 31 Ziklag, Madmannah, Sansannah, 32 Lebaoth, Shilhim, Ain, and Rimmon: in all, twenty-nine cities with their villages. 33 And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34 Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages. 37 Zenan, Hadashah, Migdal-gad, 38 Dilean, Mizpeh, Joktheel, 39 Lachish, Bozkath, Eglon, 40 Cabbon, Lahmam, Chitlish, 41 Gederoth, Beth-dagon, Naamah, and Makkedah: sixteen cities with their villages. 42 Libnah, Ether, Ashan, 43 Iphtah, Ashnah, Nezib, 44 Keilah, Achzib, and Mareshah: nine cities with their villages. 45 Ekron, with its towns and its villages; 46 from Ekron to the sea, all that were by the side of Ashdod, with their villages. 47 Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its towns and its villages; to the Brook of Egypt, and the Great Sea with its coastline. 48 And in the hill country, Shamir, Jattir, Socoh, 49 Dannah, Kiriath-sannah (that is, Debir), 50 Anab, Eshtemoh, Anim, 51 Goshen, Holon, and Giloh: eleven cities with their villages. 52 Arab, Dumah, Eshan, 53 Janim, Beth-tappuah, Aphekah, 54 Humtah, Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron), and Zior: nine cities with their villages. 55 Maon, Carmel, Ziph, Juttah, 56 Jezreel, Jokdeam, Zanoah, 57 Kain, Gibeah, and Timnah: ten cities with their villages. 58 Halhul, Beth-zur, Gedor, 59 Maarath, Beth-anoth, and Eltekon: six cities with their villages. 60 Kiriath-baal (that is, Kiriath-jearim), and Rabbah: two cities with their villages. 61 In the wilderness, Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah, 62 Nibshan, the City of Salt, and Engedi: six cities with their villages. 63 But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day. Footnotes [1] 12:4 Septuagint; Hebrew the boundary of Og [2] 12:23 Septuagint; Hebrew Gilgal [3] 13:8 Hebrew With it [4] 13:26 Septuagint, Syriac, Vulgate; Hebrew Lidebir [5] 14:15 Kiriath-arba means the city of Arba [6] 14:15 Hebrew He (ESV)

Joshua 12–15 Joshua 12–15 (Listen) Kings Defeated by Moses 12 Now these are the kings of the land whom the people of Israel defeated and took possession of their land beyond the Jordan toward the sunrise, from the Valley of the Arnon to Mount Hermon, with all the Arabah eastward: 2 Sihon king of the Amorites who lived at Heshbon and ruled from Aroer, which is on the edge of the Valley of the Arnon, and from the middle of the valley as far as the river Jabbok, the boundary of the Ammonites, that is, half of Gilead, 3 and the Arabah to the Sea of Chinneroth eastward, and in the direction of Beth-jeshimoth, to the Sea of the Arabah, the Salt Sea, southward to the foot of the slopes of Pisgah; 4 and Og1 king of Bashan, one of the remnant of the Rephaim, who lived at Ashtaroth and at Edrei 5 and ruled over Mount Hermon and Salecah and all Bashan to the boundary of the Geshurites and the Maacathites, and over half of Gilead to the boundary of Sihon king of Heshbon. 6 Moses, the servant of the LORD, and the people of Israel defeated them. And Moses the servant of the LORD gave their land for a possession to the Reubenites and the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh. Kings Defeated by Joshua 7 And these are the kings of the land whom Joshua and the people of Israel defeated on the west side of the Jordan, from Baal-gad in the Valley of Lebanon to Mount Halak, that rises toward Seir (and Joshua gave their land to the tribes of Israel as a possession according to their allotments, 8 in the hill country, in the lowland, in the Arabah, in the slopes, in the wilderness, and in the Negeb, the land of the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites): 9 the king of Jericho, one; the king of Ai, which is beside Bethel, one; 10 the king of Jerusalem, one; the king of Hebron, one; 11 the king of Jarmuth, one; the king of Lachish, one; 12 the king of Eglon, one; the king of Gezer, one; 13 the king of Debir, one; the king of Geder, one; 14 the king of Hormah, one; the king of Arad, one; 15 the king of Libnah, one; the king of Adullam, one; 16 the king of Makkedah, one; the king of Bethel, one; 17 the king of Tappuah, one; the king of Hepher, one; 18 the king of Aphek, one; the king of Lasharon, one; 19 the king of Madon, one; the king of Hazor, one; 20 the king of Shimron-meron, one; the king of Achshaph, one; 21 the king of Taanach, one; the king of Megiddo, one; 22 the king of Kedesh, one; the king of Jokneam in Carmel, one; 23 the king of Dor in Naphath-dor, one; the king of Goiim in Galilee,2 one; 24 the king of Tirzah, one: in all, thirty-one kings. Land Still to Be Conquered 13 Now Joshua was old and advanced in years, and the LORD said to him, “You are old and advanced in years, and there remains yet very much land to possess. 2 This is the land that yet remains: all the regions of the Philistines, and all those of the Geshurites 3 (from the Shihor, which is east of Egypt, northward to the boundary of Ekron, it is counted as Canaanite; there are five rulers of the Philistines, those of Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath, and Ekron), and those of the Avvim, 4 in the south, all the land of the Canaanites, and Mearah that belongs to the Sidonians, to Aphek, to the boundary of the Amorites, 5 and the land of the Gebalites, and all Lebanon, toward the sunrise, from Baal-gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo-hamath, 6 all the inhabitants of the hill country from Lebanon to Misrephoth-maim, even all the Sidonians. I myself will drive them out from before the people of Israel. Only allot the land to Israel for an inheritance, as I have commanded you. 7 Now therefore divide this land for an inheritance to the nine tribes and half the tribe of Manasseh.” The Inheritance East of the Jordan 8 With the other half of the tribe of Manasseh3 the Reubenites and the Gadites received their inheritance, which Moses gave them, beyond the Jordan eastward, as Moses the servant of the LORD gave them: 9 from Aroer, which is on the edge of the Valley of the Arnon, and the city that is in the middle of the valley, and all the tableland of Medeba as far as Dibon; 10 and all the cities of Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon, as far as the boundary of the Ammonites; 11 and Gilead, and the region of the Geshurites and Maacathites, and all Mount Hermon, and all Bashan to Salecah; 12 all the kingdom of Og in Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei (he alone was left of the remnant of the Rephaim); these Moses had struck and driven out. 13 Yet the people of Israel did not drive out the Geshurites or the Maacathites, but Geshur and Maacath dwell in the midst of Israel to this day. 14 To the tribe of Levi alone Moses gave no inheritance. The offerings by fire to the LORD God of Israel are their inheritance, as he said to him. 15 And Moses gave an inheritance to the tribe of the people of Reuben according to their clans. 16 So their territory was from Aroer, which is on the edge of the Valley of the Arnon, and the city that is in the middle of the valley, and all the tableland by Medeba; 17 with Heshbon, and all its cities that are in the tableland; Dibon, and Bamoth-baal, and Beth-baal-meon, 18 and Jahaz, and Kedemoth, and Mephaath, 19 and Kiriathaim, and Sibmah, and Zereth-shahar on the hill of the valley, 20 and Beth-peor, and the slopes of Pisgah, and Beth-jeshimoth, 21 that is, all the cities of the tableland, and all the kingdom of Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon, whom Moses defeated with the leaders of Midian, Evi and Rekem and Zur and Hur and Reba, the princes of Sihon, who lived in the land. 22 Balaam also, the son of Beor, the one who practiced divination, was killed with the sword by the people of Israel among the rest of their slain. 23 And the border of the people of Reuben was the Jordan as a boundary. This was the inheritance of the people of Reuben, according to their clans with their cities and villages. 24 Moses gave an inheritance also to the tribe of Gad, to the people of Gad, according to their clans. 25 Their territory was Jazer, and all the cities of Gilead, and half the land of the Ammonites, to Aroer, which is east of Rabbah, 26 and from Heshbon to Ramath-mizpeh and Betonim, and from Mahanaim to the territory of Debir,4 27 and in the valley Beth-haram, Beth-nimrah, Succoth, and Zaphon, the rest of the kingdom of Sihon king of Heshbon, having the Jordan as a boundary, to the lower end of the Sea of Chinnereth, eastward beyond the Jordan. 28 This is the inheritance of the people of Gad according to their clans, with their cities and villages. 29 And Moses gave an inheritance to the half-tribe of Manasseh. It was allotted to the half-tribe of the people of Manasseh according to their clans. 30 Their region extended from Mahanaim, through all Bashan, the whole kingdom of Og king of Bashan, and all the towns of Jair, which are in Bashan, sixty cities, 31 and half Gilead, and Ashtaroth, and Edrei, the cities of the kingdom of Og in Bashan. These were allotted to the people of Machir the son of Manasseh for the half of the people of Machir according to their clans. 32 These are the inheritances that Moses distributed in the plains of Moab, beyond the Jordan east of Jericho. 33 But to the tribe of Levi Moses gave no inheritance; the LORD God of Israel is their inheritance, just as he said to them. The Inheritance West of the Jordan 14 These are the inheritances that the people of Israel received in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest and Joshua the son of Nun and the heads of the fathers’ houses of the tribes of the people of Israel gave them to inherit. 2 Their inheritance was by lot, just as the LORD had commanded by the hand of Moses for the nine and one-half tribes. 3 For Moses had given an inheritance to the two and one-half tribes beyond the Jordan, but to the Levites he gave no inheritance among them. 4 For the people of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim. And no portion was given to the Levites in the land, but only cities to dwell in, with their pasturelands for their livestock and their substance. 5 The people of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses; they allotted the land. Caleb’s Request and Inheritance 6 Then the people of Judah came to Joshua at Gilgal. And Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite said to him, “You know what the LORD said to Moses the man of God in Kadesh-barnea concerning you and me. 7 I was forty years old when Moses the servant of the LORD sent me from Kadesh-barnea to spy out the land, and I brought him word again as it was in my heart. 8 But my brothers who went up with me made the heart of the people melt; yet I wholly followed the LORD my God. 9 And Moses swore on that day, saying, ‘Surely the land on which your foot has trodden shall be an inheritance for you and your children forever, because you have wholly followed the LORD my God.’ 10 And now, behold, the LORD has kept me alive, just as he said, these forty-five years since the time that the LORD spoke this word to Moses, while Israel walked in the wilderness. And now, behold, I am this day eighty-five years old. 11 I am still as strong today as I was in the day that Moses sent me; my strength now is as my strength was then, for war and for going and coming. 12 So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said.” 13 Then Joshua blessed him, and he gave Hebron to Caleb the son of Jephunneh for an inheritance. 14 Therefore Hebron became the inheritance of Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite to this day, because he wholly followed the LORD, the God of Israel. 15 Now the name of Hebron formerly was Kiriath-arba.5 (Arba6 was the greatest man among the Anakim.) And the land had rest from war. The Allotment for Judah 15 The allotment for the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans reached southward to the boundary of Edom, to the wilderness of Zin at the farthest south. 2 And their south boundary ran from the end of the Salt Sea, from the bay that faces southward. 3 It goes out southward of the ascent of Akrabbim, passes along to Zin, and goes up south of Kadesh-barnea, along by Hezron, up to Addar, turns about to Karka, 4 passes along to Azmon, goes out by the Brook of Egypt, and comes to its end at the sea. This shall be your south boundary. 5 And the east boundary is the Salt Sea, to the mouth of the Jordan. And the boundary on the north side runs from the bay of the sea at the mouth of the Jordan. 6 And the boundary goes up to Beth-hoglah and passes along north of Beth-arabah. And the boundary goes up to the stone of Bohan the son of Reuben. 7 And the boundary goes up to Debir from the Valley of Achor, and so northward, turning toward Gilgal, which is opposite the ascent of Adummim, which is on the south side of the valley. And the boundary passes along to the waters of En-shemesh and ends at En-rogel. 8 Then the boundary goes up by the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the southern shoulder of the Jebusite (that is, Jerusalem). And the boundary goes up to the top of the mountain that lies over against the Valley of Hinnom, on the west, at the northern end of the Valley of Rephaim. 9 Then the boundary extends from the top of the mountain to the spring of the waters of Nephtoah, and from there to the cities of Mount Ephron. Then the boundary bends around to Baalah (that is, Kiriath-jearim). 10 And the boundary circles west of Baalah to Mount Seir, passes along to the northern shoulder of Mount Jearim (that is, Chesalon), and goes down to Beth-shemesh and passes along by Timnah. 11 The boundary goes out to the shoulder of the hill north of Ekron, then the boundary bends around to Shikkeron and passes along to Mount Baalah and goes out to Jabneel. Then the boundary comes to an end at the sea. 12 And the west boundary was the Great Sea with its coastline. This is the boundary around the people of Judah according to their clans. 13 According to the commandment of the LORD to Joshua, he gave to Caleb the son of Jephunneh a portion among the people of Judah, Kiriath-arba, that is, Hebron (Arba was the father of Anak). 14 And Caleb drove out from there the three sons of Anak, Sheshai and Ahiman and Talmai, the descendants of Anak. 15 And he went up from there against the inhabitants of Debir. Now the name of Debir formerly was Kiriath-sepher. 16 And Caleb said, “Whoever strikes Kiriath-sepher and captures it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife.” 17 And Othniel the son of Kenaz, the brother of Caleb, captured it. And he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife. 18 When she came to him, she urged him to ask her father for a field. And she got off her donkey, and Caleb said to her, “What do you want?” 19 She said to him, “Give me a blessing. Since you have given me the land of the Negeb, give me also springs of water.” And he gave her the upper springs and the lower springs. 20 This is the inheritance of the tribe of the people of Judah according to their clans. 21 The cities belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah in the extreme south, toward the boundary of Edom, were Kabzeel, Eder, Jagur, 22 Kinah, Dimonah, Adadah, 23 Kedesh, Hazor, Ithnan, 24 Ziph, Telem, Bealoth, 25 Hazor-hadattah, Kerioth-hezron (that is, Hazor), 26 Amam, Shema, Moladah, 27 Hazar-gaddah, Heshmon, Beth-pelet, 28 Hazar-shual, Beersheba, Biziothiah, 29 Baalah, Iim, Ezem, 30 Eltolad, Chesil, Hormah, 31 Ziklag, Madmannah, Sansannah, 32 Lebaoth, Shilhim, Ain, and Rimmon: in all, twenty-nine cities with their villages. 33 And in the lowland, Eshtaol, Zorah, Ashnah, 34 Zanoah, En-gannim, Tappuah, Enam, 35 Jarmuth, Adullam, Socoh, Azekah, 36 Shaaraim, Adithaim, Gederah, Gederothaim: fourteen cities with their villages. 37 Zenan, Hadashah, Migdal-gad, 38 Dilean, Mizpeh, Joktheel, 39 Lachish, Bozkath, Eglon, 40 Cabbon, Lahmam, Chitlish, 41 Gederoth, Beth-dagon, Naamah, and Makkedah: sixteen cities with their villages. 42 Libnah, Ether, Ashan, 43 Iphtah, Ashnah, Nezib, 44 Keilah, Achzib, and Mareshah: nine cities with their villages. 45 Ekron, with its towns and its villages; 46 from Ekron to the sea, all that were by the side of Ashdod, with their villages. 47 Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its towns and its villages; to the Brook of Egypt, and the Great Sea with its coastline. 48 And in the hill country, Shamir, Jattir, Socoh, 49 Dannah, Kiriath-sannah (that is, Debir), 50 Anab, Eshtemoh, Anim, 51 Goshen, Holon, and Giloh: eleven cities with their villages. 52 Arab, Dumah, Eshan, 53 Janim, Beth-tappuah, Aphekah, 54 Humtah, Kiriath-arba (that is, Hebron), and Zior: nine cities with their villages. 55 Maon, Carmel, Ziph, Juttah, 56 Jezreel, Jokdeam, Zanoah, 57 Kain, Gibeah, and Timnah: ten cities with their villages. 58 Halhul, Beth-zur, Gedor, 59 Maarath, Beth-anoth, and Eltekon: six cities with their villages. 60 Kiriath-baal (that is, Kiriath-jearim), and Rabbah: two cities with their villages. 61 In the wilderness, Beth-arabah, Middin, Secacah, 62 Nibshan, the City of Salt, and Engedi: six cities with their villages. 63 But the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the people of Judah could not drive out, so the Jebusites dwell with the people of Judah at Jerusalem to this day. Footnotes [1] 12:4 Septuagint; Hebrew the boundary of Og [2] 12:23 Septuagint; Hebrew Gilgal [3] 13:8 Hebrew With it [4] 13:26 Septuagint, Syriac, Vulgate; Hebrew Lidebir [5] 14:15 Kiriath-arba means the city of Arba [6] 14:15 Hebrew He (ESV)

  This week, we continue our conversation with Sarosh Anklesaria, Shubhra Raje, and Riyaz Tayyibji about the recent developments at the Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad (IIM) where controversial deliberations have led to the decision to demolish a large swath of dormitories on its campus designed by Louis Kahn, architect. While this decision has been temporarily halted, it has generated much conversation surrounding the value of experience, collective and micro histories, the role of empathy within the built environment, and changing the terms of engagement with a “growth” mindset.

The basic issue is: what is the value of collective/cultural memory? What happens when we privilege certain memories over others? This week, Sarosh Anklesaria, Shubhra Raje, Riyaz Tayyibji and Vikram Prakash converse about recent developments at the Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad (IIM) where controversial deliberations have led to the decision to demolish a large swath of dormitories on its campus designed by Louis Kahn, architect.  

Kyle McNabb joins Kevin Craine to discuss IIM in the new norm. Kyle is SVP of Product Marketing for ASG Technologies and a member of the AIIM Executive Counsil. Before that, he spent several years as a VP at Forrester research. He's an expert in product research, strategy and digital transformation. Host, Kevin Craine  

Bob Fresneda discusses the challenges and opportunities today in document process automation and IIM. Bob is President of US Operations at TCG Process and a member of the AIIM Leadership Council. Bob lends his advice for business owners looking to reframe their business strategies in a today’s challenging marketplace. He describes the recent work at TCG with Swisscom and their efforts to implement a digital mailroom. This led the firm to not only use the innovations and efficiencies in document processing automation gained by working with TCG, but they now offer those services to their clients as an additional revenue stream to the company. Find out more, and listen for advice and action items you can use today. Host, Kevin Craine  

Dr. Heidi talks with Rijul Arora, Digital Well Being Advocate and Practitioner. Rijul is a technology enthusiast working on building a better working world through technology. But, he's a millennial who’s been on both sides of the table-completely addicted to technology, left it and now he has a healthy relationship with technology. This transition has completely transformed his life personally, professionally, and mentally. Thus, he spread this message of “healthy relationships with technology” through various platforms.  Professionally, he is working with EY and helping clients in end to end technology transformation.  Personally, he has delivered 70+ talks in leading Indian Colleges like IIM's, IIT's etc. and global platforms like TEDx and Character Day.  Rijul is also an Innovator and Thought Leader with LookUp Live. A millennial who’s been on both sides of the table-completely addicted to technology, left it and now he uses it in a healthy way. This transition has completely transformed his life personally, professionally and mentally. Thus, Rijul spreads this message of “healthy relationships with technology” through schools, colleges, NGO's and corporates.  Read a brief story about Rijul: https://medium.com/lookup-live/this-is-what-happened-when-i-stopped-using-social-media-for-seven-months-6d7d0e105de6 Website: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rijularora Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/rijul.arora.3591 This episode is also celebrates Dr. Heidi Forbes Öste's, #1 Bestselling book, Digital Self Mastery Across Generations, Print edition now available from all on-line booksellers, and for order in local book sellers internationally. Your order will help support the Evolving Digital Self podcast. If you like it, please feel free to share it with your friends (both the book and the podcast :-)

In this episode #43, the host Naveen Samala interacted with another guest Melvin. With over 20 years of experience in the IT Industry, Melvin Mamidi is a strong leader in the computer networking function. Melvin did Bachelors in Electrical Engineering and did his Post Graduate Certificate in General Management (PGCGM) from IIM, Kozhikode. Melvin is a certified Project Management Professional, PMP.   Coming to his key achievements, he was a Founding Member of Special Interest Group (SIG) in Project Management in ADP and also Led Innovation Focus Group in ADP.   At present, he is serving as a Transformation Leader in a Product based company in Hyderabad.   With his vast experience, let us get Melvin's views on this important topic of Computer Networking.    Whenever I hear about Networking, I remember a quote which our CTO mentioned during my early career days “Opposite of Networking is Not Working”.   Network is the backbone of the Information Technology Industry and touches almost every industry. Imagine a day when you don't have access to the internet.    Network team plays a very vital role in any enterprise, they keep themselves awake to keep the network up and running all the times. Listen to Melvin's Journey & Tips on: Melvin's Career Journey Roles/Positions in Computer Networking Career Path in Computer Networking Certifications in networking(CCNA, CCNP, CCIE) How to land in a Networking Job Career Transformation Journey Tips for Students & Young professionals Melvin's LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melvinmamidi/ Enjoy the episode! Do not forget to share your suggestions or feedback at theguidingvoice4u@gmail.com or by messaging at +91 9494 587 187  Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheGuidingVoice Also, follow The Guiding Voice on Social Media: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/theguidingvoice Facebook: http://facebook.com/theguidingvoice4u Twitter: http://twitter.com/guidingvoice Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theguidingvoice4u/ Pinterest: https://in.pinterest.com/theguidingvoice4u/pins/  #CCNA #computernetworking #CCNA #CCNP #CCIE #careerguidance, #mentorship, #careerpath, #progression, #management, #leadership, #crisis, #job, #midcareer, #youngprofessionals, #careergraph, #TGV, #theguidingvoice  

Greg Council, member of the AIIM leadership council and VP Marketing and Product Management with Parascript discusses document processing automation and Machine Learning. Greg is an expert in digital transformation using tools like advanced data extraction, taxonomy, and search. He explores the current challenges and opportunities in IIM today by asking “are you data rich, or data poor?” Listen and explore process improvement and digital transformation from a data science perspective. Host, Kevin Craine AIIM.org

In today's episode, I invited Amit Siingh. Amit is an entrepreneur by choice, MBA by design, and an engineer by default. An engineer by default- because my whole family is cluttered with engineers, so by default I got to do that. An MBA by design- It is the design of life that he did his MBA from IIM Ahmedabad, otherwise, he had cleared FMS Delhi twice and was not able to join it before joining IIM A. An entrepreneur by choice- Because in 2016, he made a choice which changed the course of his life and which was to quit his high paying job in Yes Bank and chose the path of which he calls 3F (Freedom, Financial, Fulfilment) through digital entrepreneurship. But he is not a typical IIM & IIT success story. It has been a story full of failures and some successes. It is full of struggles of all types- personal, financial, health, relationship. A long story for some other time. He has a unique experience of doing a 2 year MBA from IIM Ahmedabad after having more than 9 years of work experience and that too with a wife and a 3-year-old kid on the campus! The unconventional route taken by him has been covered widely in the media. Based on his unique insights, Amit authored a book called - The Black Book- The untold story of IIMs that nobody has ever told you- a book that helps MBA aspirants to make informed life and career decisions. He is also a TEDx speaker and spoken on "Depression: An insider's perspective". He has faced this menace and came out of it successfully and know how it can be won over. The Talk can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHhFLUblFbY Since 2016, he co-founded a couple of startups (some success, some failures), helps companies and individuals as Digital Career Specialist.

Land laws and legislation are a labyrinth in India. They have historically posed nightmares for landholders and farmers who have been the victims of land-grab by the government using its eminent domain powers. Protests and agitation sparked by such incidents (such as the one against the Tata Nano factory in West Bengal) led to the 2013 Land Act being passed, replacing the archaic 1894 Law. However, some experts and economists feel that land is now too time-consuming, expensive, and cumbersome to acquire, which holds back economic growth.To help us navigate this labyrinth and such inherent tensions, I speak with a former veteran IAS bureaucrat and a current economics professor at NCAER- Dr. KP Krishnan. Dr. Krishnan has held in Secretary-level positions in crucial ministries such as Land Resources. He also holds a Ph.D. in Economics from IIM and has produced extensive literature on the issue of land's role in India's economy and related policy prescriptions. The bulk of the conversation related to such legislation revolves around Land Acquisition, aka the government's eminent domain powers over land. We start by unearthing the 2013 Land Act and understanding its impact on land-grab and whether it has come at the expense of economically beneficial land acquisitions. We discuss attempts of reform since the 2013 Act by the Modi government as well as State governments. Specifically, Dr. Krishnan, who was Additional Secretary of Land Resources between 2014 and 2017, helps shed light on why Modi's land reform attempts at the time went bust. Finally, as Dr. Krishnan mentions in the very first answer, there is an excessive focus on land acquisition. The real question is: why don't private markets work for land, as they do for labor or capital? We discuss in-depth one of the big reasons: poor titling and land records in a country where almost 90% of the land parcels face legal disputes. What are the solutions to this issue? Are there short-cuts we can take to expedite the process?Timestamps: 1. 0.00: Introduction2. 6.20: Contextualizing the 2013 Land Acquisition Act3. 10.05: There is an excessive focus on Land Acquisition.4. 16.15: Does the 2013 Act address the issue of land-grab and find the right balance?5. 23.00: Does the 2013 Act stifle economic activity?6. 37.35: Context behind the 2014/15 Modi govt land reform attempts. Why did they fail?7. 47.50: States like Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra have passed amendments in line with the 2014-15 Central level reform attempts. How has land acquisition and land-grab fared in such states?8. 51.40; Karnataka recently allowed farmers to sell their land to non-farmers. Is this the right move?9. 56.05: Why does a private market for land not exist? 10. 1.03.55: Impact of land titling and land market distortions on credit levels in India. What are the solutions?11. 1.08.00: NITI Aayog has a draft Land Titling law out focussed on conclusive land titling. Is this the right set of legislation needed to solve the problem?12. 1.10.30: Assessing the Digital India Land Records Modernization Program. Where are the successes and what's further needed?13. 1.13.40: A Nifty solution to the issue of land records using data from financial institutions/lenders.14. 1.18.00: What would your plea be for the government to focus on now?

This week, Cyrus is joined by bestselling novelist, filmmaker & comic book writer Samit Basu. Samit just released his latest book titled 'Chosen Spirit' in April 2020. Cyrus and Samit talk about Cyrus' Bengali pronounciations, publishing books in these times, and how the experience of releasing a book during such times was not that different for Samit from a release in regular times. They also get into how Samit became a writer, why Cyrus is to blame for it, Samit attending Presidency College in Calcutta, getting into IIM and what made him leave after a month, how he found confidence as a writer, going on to write and co-direct the movie 'House Arrest', and tons more!Follow Samit Basu on Instagram and Twitter @samitbasuDo send in AMA questions for Cyrus by tweeting them to @cyrussaysin or e-mailing them at whatcyrussays@gmail.comDon't forget to follow Cyrus Broacha on Instagram @BoredBroacha (https://www.instagram.com/boredbroacha)In case you're late to the party and want to catch up on previous episodes of Cyrus Says you can do so at: www.ivmpodcasts.com/cyrussaysYou can listen to this show and other awesome shows on the new and improved IVM Podcasts App on Android: https://ivm.today/androidor iOS: https://ivm.today/ios

As young working mothers in this digital age, IIM alumni (and roommates) Sumedha Khoche and Shireen Sultana recognized the need for a scientifically-backed information portal for new parents. In their quest to better navigate parenting and child development in a world where technology has permeated every sphere of our lives, Shireen and Sumedha, founded KinderPass in 2019, a digital early learning & child development service. With over 60,000 downloads in just under a year, KinderPass has been a blessing for new parents, especially during this pandemic. Join us today, as we explore their journey, and determine the makings of a successful Edutech startup in this day and age!

In today’s episode I am interviewing an entrepreneur Shashank Mehta who is the founder of the food company ‘The whole truth’ formerly known as 'And nothing else'. The topics we discuss in this podcast are - The story of Shashank Mehta in starting his health blog www.fitshit.com and his company ‘The Whole Truth’ formerly known as ‘And nothing else’. Why the whole truth about ingredients in what you eat are so important for us to know The evolution of refined white sugar and fructose corn syrup How to properly read the food label and know if the food is good for you or not How food companies hide the truth about sugar that can sound like rocket science How to understand the technical names for artificial sweeteners that need not be declared as sugar. Is the packaged food industry advertising like the cigarette companies a few decades ago. Discussion about potential laws which might bring food companies selling sugar-filled products put up disclaimer such as ‘this product contains sugar which can cause diabetes and obesity’ in the label Shashank started his fitness journey at over 100kgs, 15 years ago. In the decade that followed, he taught himself fitness, lost 40kgs, ran several marathons, and helped many friends and colleagues get onto the fitness bandwagon. An IIM graduate, he has self-experimented with every fitness-fad and quick-fix out there, and now runs a 100% clean-label food brand called The Whole Truth (formerly ‘and nothing else’). They make super clean Protein Bars and Immunity balls, and you can check them out at www.thewholetruthfoods.com If you are interested in learning about Ayurveda Marma points and its healing benefits I am holding an online workshop on 30th August. You can find the link for tickets on Eventbrite https://www.eventbrite.hk/e/ayurveda-online-course-marma-point-tickets-117486046929 For further details about your host Dr. Vignesh Devraj please go to Facebook and Instagram @sitarambeachretreat @vigneshdevraj or visit www.sitaramretreat.com.

Wasim Khan, Chief Digital Officer at Ripcord, discusses the opportunities and challenges in IIM today. Explore remote work, legacy system migration, and targeted automation in applications like HR, Finance and others. Host, Kevin Craine

Elana Fate, Records Manager at MISO Energy from AIIM20 in Dallas. Elana talks about the current challenges and opportunities in IIM in the energy industry. Also, from the AIIM archive, a session with Hyland Software and their successful efforts with Heinen's Grocery Stores moving HR to the cloud; from AIIM19. Host, Kevin Craine AIIM.org

EP:20 Giving Away My Age with guest Bob Lotich, Seedtime.com Welcome to Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt. Today's episode is brought to you by Mvelopes.  That's M, like Mary, v-e-l-o-p-e-s. Mvelopes uses the tried and true envelope budget system all in one easy app. Give every dollar a purpose! Mvelopes.com. And now, Here's Mary!    Mary Hunt: [00:00:32] Everyone. I'm so happy to have you back with me on this episode of Debt Proof Living. And boy, am I excited! This is a first for us. We're new to this business anyway, but this is an absolute first. We're having an interview! I have invited a guy that I have known of and spoken with, not met face to face yet. Perhaps that'll happen someday soon, but I have followed Bob Lotich on his blogs now for several years, lots of years. And I gotta tell you this guy's got it all together. I love what Bob teaches. He, he comes at personal finance and money management from a Biblical viewpoint. Now I'm not saying that this is a church service or a Bible study necessarily, but I'm telling you Bob  and I share so many values because we are both followers of Jesus Christ. And if that cannot help, but to color our lives and the way that we handle everything, the way that we manage our money. And the way that we teach. So I am thrilled to death to have Bob with us today. Now, let me tell you a little bit about him. He is a certified educator in personal finance. That means he gets to put at the end of his name, CEPF and he started a blog called SeedTime. it was originally called Christian Personal Finance or ChristianPF is probably the way you might remember it way back in 2007. That was not that long ago because I started way back in 1997 online. So. We go back a long time. But anyway, his passion is to help fellow believers like me and like many of you to learn how to manage your money wisely., His personal mission and the mission of his blog Seedtime, is to make, save, grow and give money to benefit others. Isn't that awesome? I love that. Make, save, grow and give. After all says Bob, life, isn't about the accumulation of things, but it's about how much we can make a difference in this world by giving. And I gotta put my parentheses in here. We are certainly in a time right now during this global disruption, our lives have been so disrupted. what better time then we can look at the whole world to find ways that we can help and give and serve. In 2017 SeedTime donated 36% of all e-course sales to Feed My Starving Children, which has provided 79,000 meals to hungry kids around the world. That is  just amazing. Amazing. Once Bob realized that by paying off his debt, he could fund God's kingdom  instead of paying interest to banks, it provided a deeper level of motivation for him and his wife to get out of debt. That sealed the deal. Bob and Linda spent the next couple of years paying off their $46,000 of debt in their first years of marriage. Bob also has a passion for helping entrepreneurs, get their business ideas off the ground. And he's written two fabulous books, helping bloggers and want-to-be-bloggers build and grow their blogs.  So if you have that in your mind, you really, really need to check out Bob Lotich.  Anyway, when Bob isn't working, he is likely hanging out with his wife, Linda, their kids, Alden, Valerie, and Oliver. Working on his garden. Eating some artisanal dark chocolate .Playing his guitar or riding his motorcycle. And sometimes, you ready? All at the same time!  Now I have to see a picture of this. And so without any further hesitation or delay welcome, Bob!   Bob Lotich: [00:04:13] Mary, thank you so much. It is an honor to be here. It's an honor to be speaking with you. You've been a role model and a mentor for many, many years, and I'm just thrilled to be able to chat.    Mary Hunt: [00:04:24] we're so happy to have you here. Bob, there's so much that you could teach us about. All of us! And, you know, I put myself in that too, because some of these lessons, we have to keep learning over and over and over again. And, and with what we've gone through recently, I am certain that many people listening to me now are much more aware of the need to plan, prepare to manage their money well. So let's get right to it. What was your inspiration for beginning your blog SeedTime, and then tell us where did that name, that word come from, SeedTime? The name of that you named your blog.     Bob Lotich: [00:04:59] So in terms of actually starting the blog, like you alluded to it originally was Christian PF. And, and for me, I, I was in a mess financially. I was just in debt up to my eyeballs and just didn't know how to move out of that spot in life. And once I discovered that the Bible actually talked a lot about money and, and then once I discovered that some of this advice was actually still relevant for today. So even this book, that's thousands of years old and actually had timely and relevant, you know, age old wisdom that was still beneficial for us today. then I started getting interested in this and, and I was, you know, learning a whole bunch of practical things about money. I was reading every magazine and book I could get my hands on. But then I was also digging into the Bible to see what that had to say about everything. And I sort of started combining these two ideas, these two sources of information. And that's what kind of led me to create this blog. Cause I just wanted to share what I was learning with anyone who would listen. And that's kind of how we got it off the ground. Now, we did change the name to SeedTime a few years ago, we kind of rebranded and that comes from a verse in Genesis. Genesis 8:22. And, it's where God's talking about how there will always be the law of seed time and harvest. And that's kind of where that comes from. This idea. That the fascinating thing for me is that, pretty much, if you look at everything that God does, it almost always starts with the seed. you know, and so you can apply that to so many areas, but our financial, our finances and our. financial growth or any growth in any area of our life. It always starts with something really, really small. And that's where the power is, being able to take that small thing and to start and to just care for that, to water that seed and to keep caring for that and to let that grow into the mighty oak that it will become.   Mary Hunt: [00:06:46] That is fabulous. You know, as you were saying that I can't help, but think some of the things that I've been telling my grandchildren and my kids and myself in this past few months, Is that we have to grab onto the things that we know will never change. We're looking at things that can change and have changed in ways that we'd probably never dreamed, but you're absolutely right. Seed time. We should count on that. We can count on the sun coming up in the morning, going down at night. There are things that God has given us that will never, ever change. How wonderful to grab onto that. That, that is, that is really, really that's fabulous. So you've kind of already alluded to this. I was going to ask you what role has debt and savings played in your life? So let's, let's look at that debt thing. I, you know, I've been there as well. How did debt affect you personally? And can you contrast that with where you are now? And I need emotionally, day to day, the difference between debt and debt free for you and Linda.    Bob Lotich: [00:07:50] Yeah. you know, and like we had talked before, I know a little bit of your story and, what it was like for you and, yeah. And coming back to the Bible, this was one of the first verses that I discovered where it's like, that makes so much sense. You know, it was a verse in Proverbs where it talks about how the borrower is slave to the lender. And when I read that, like, that's exactly how I feel. That's exactly how I feel like, you know, the bank owns my car and they own my house and they, you know, all these credit card companies are hanging this thing over my head and the student loans. All this stuff. It's like, I felt like every dollar that I had was someone else's and I felt like I'm going to work to give money to these companies. And it was a very, yeah. Relative to where we are now, we are now 100% debt free by the grace of God and we're tickled pink and enjoying it. But, but comparing the two different things, it's very clear. That, that was a very unsettling feeling. and I knew that then, but like, especially contrasting it to being a hundred percent debt free. It's just so much different. And you know, my encouragement to people all the time is it's good. Like, I'm sure you think that it's good when you pay for your dad, but it is just, it's so good. It's so much better. It feels so much richer than I think most people imagine. And I think if everybody knew how great it would be, feel to be a hundred percent debt free. I think a lot more people would be chasing it.   Mary Hunt: [00:09:15 ]I couldn't agree with you more. And I'm looking right now and reading my in inbox, my email from people who, who came into this time of life is shut down of our country, losing their jobs and all with tons of debt and no savings. And that's horrific. I mean, we're starting to see the fallout of that. I'm wondering if you and Linda did, was it just, is it, has this just been a little blip in the road? Because you are prepared, you have savings. You are not depending, on a paycheck every Friday or whatever like that. And I really like our listeners to understand how important it is to plan.    Bob Lotich: [00:09:54] You know, that was part of being able to pay off our debt or what will got us excited about paying off our debt. Cause it would be able to build up a bigger emergency fund. for stuff like this, you know, and so we were able to do that and, you know, and we've gone through hiccups, like, I went through a pretty scary layoff. that kind of was my transition into being an entrepreneur. And that was the same type of thing where that, that emergency fund, really helped us considerably get through that phase of a lot of personal uncertainty. And now we're in kind of global uncertainty and, you know, the government keeps throwing money at us, but. Like, that's not going to last forever. That's not going to solve our problems. And it's like, it's nice. Then it will help some people, but that's not a long term solution. Like we need to be, figuring these things out for ourselves and getting in a solid financial spot ourselves so we can better handle these things. And yeah, in our case, It has been, yeah, personally it still affects us. It's like, you're not immune to it when you're debt free, but, but it's definitely on a much lower level and scale than it would be if we were still carrying all the debt we were before. Like, I don't want to think about how we would be thinking and how we'd be handling this. If we. Had that, that load that we had before.   Julie Emerson:  Let's take a quick break for just a minute. Okay. Hi, I'm Julie. Producer a Debt Proof Living with Mary Hunt. You know, many of us have the experience in our lives of living paycheck to paycheck. Many people. I know it well, have a difficult time following a budget. But not managing our money as a leading cause of stress in our lives.  That's why Mvelopes created a simple, affordable envelope budgeting program that just works. Mvelopes helps you take control of your future by giving every dollar a purpose, every dollar. A purpose. People who use envelope, see monthly savings of 10% of their spending within six weeks of getting started and they report less anxiety.  And currently Mvelopes is extending their free trial to 60 days for all of their subscriptions. So there's never been a better time to start on a new path. Just click the link in the show notes and sign up today. Risk-free. Okay. Now let's get back to our conversation.     Mary Hunt:  [00:12:15] yeah. I have a question for you that I get quite often, especially from younger folks, I think that they're facing life. You know, how do I manage debt? Not how do I live without debt? It's become a way of  life for  them, but this is the question, you know, Jesus told us, why do you worry? Don't you know, that the father takes care of even the birds. They don't worry. They don't wonder where the next meal is coming. Why are you worried? Don't worry about tomorrow. Yeah, but then we read in another part of the Bible, like in the Psalms that says, or the Proverbs, you know, that look at the ant, they don't, they don't play all summer. They are gathering for the winter that's coming. How do you explain, how do we plan for the future? But yet trust God for the future. Where, where is that balance? And are we foolish to say, God will take care of tomorrow and spend it all today that He's given me.    Bob Lotich:  [00:13:15] Yeah. That is a, a wonderful question. That. I wish I had the answer to, you know, this is something that we, Linda and I, even at this moment, like we still have discussions about this, where we are trying to figure out that perfect balance point of using wisdom. You know, like you have many instances, you have Joseph in the Bible, being instructed during the years of plenty to save up for the years of famine that were coming like. It's it's, you know, using wisdom to plan ahead, like the, you know, the Proverb you mentioned it's clearly a Biblical principle, but at the same time, like we can't trust in any of that. And I find for me personally, when I find myself trusting in my savings account too much. Trusting in my sort- my income source, whatever it is. if I am doing that too heavily, like God will correct me. Like, I will sense that like, Nope, I don't want you leaning on that. I want you leaning on me as your provider and to trust. And it's like, it's good that you're doing that and using wisdom, but yeah, for us, that's been just a constant thing where, where we're trying to find that perfect spot. And honestly, I don't know that there is a perfect spot. I think that those two pieces have to work together. And I think that, you know, the unfortunate answer for a lot of us is that it's a personal individualized thing that we're all in different places on our journey. And, if we are followers of Jesus, that that's something that we can trust that God is going to guide us on individually, you know, Holy spirit leading us in whatever direction. but yeah, it's a tough one. It's a really tough one. I wish there was a pat black and white answer, but, I don't think it's that clear cut.    Mary Hunt:  [00:14:55] Just interject and share this, that. As this whole shutdown thing happened so quickly in the U S in the early months of 2020, my husband and I, who w w we have emergency savings. I mean, you know, six months living expenses in the bank, I think is a pretty good benchmark. And as I look at it, now, I understand it's so much more why we need to plan, because we've been able to help others. Okay. And that giving thing, when we lived in California, we went to Saddleback Church. And so Rick Warren was my pastor and I still consider him that way. And I'll never, ever forget something that he said in a sermon that has just, it impacted my life. So seriously, he says, this. Money is a test and a trust. God puts money into your life to see if he can trust you with it. And if you spend it all on yourself and you squander it and you have nothing to show for tomorrow, He knows He can't, He can't trust you. So it's almost as if God put this, these funds and this resources into our lives, so that we'd be able to serve Him. And that almost brings me to tears. As I see that new dimension of planning, it's not just for us, just not to pay our bills. And you know, for people who have debt, they still need to have savings. They still need to have emergency fund, but it's sad when that money has to go to the bank. So I, I just applaud you and absolutely how you explained that you've brought new meaning to those verses to me. And I, I really thank you for that. So you're saying that if I'm planning that doesn't show, I'm not trusting.    Bob Lotich: [00:16:37] Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, like we, we literally were having a conversation about this the other day because our business has changed a lot over the last few years where, A few of the sources of revenue that we were kind of leaning, or I should say me, this is probably more me than Linda. Linda is a little better about this, but I just tend to lean too much on one source of revenue. And it's like, if you have a job, like it's easy to view your job or your employer as your provider, but that's a dangerous place to be. because they're really not your provider, you know? And when you're in that position, then you lose your job. And suddenly, you know, your whole world is turned upside down. But as a believer, like we should be able to go through that. And that being like the storm, when Jesus is asleep on the boat, you know, in this hurricane type, wind situation, And he's at rest because he knows his father is going to take care of him and that he's not going to drown or whatever the thing may be. And the same thing can be applied to our lives. So regardless of what's going on in the world, around us, you know, in this case with the pandemic, all the economic uncertainty and job loss and everything else. Like, we can still trust God that He's going to do that. But when we're trusting too much in our business or in the government or in our job or whatever, the thing may be, we're just on shaky ground. That is not a good place to be standing.    Mary Hunt: [00:18:00] Okay. I have a question for you. First I want to, I want to remind my listeners that we have a podcast series, which is based on my book The 7 Money Rules for Life. And of course, one of my rules is that from what you receive, you must always give some away. And there's a reason for that. I've got lots of reasons, but I want to hear your reasons, Bob, because when it comes to giving, I've learned from you, that you put a lot of people to shame. Tell us about your- and what you and Linda have decided to do with living, with giving. I'm sorry, with giving away money that God puts into your hands.   Bob Lotich: [00:18:37] I just want to say. I mean, you mentioned I was putting people to shave and just so we're clear, like, all we have done is obeyed what we sense the Lord leading us to do, and everybody's on their own giving journey. And yeah, my encouragement to everyone is to push yourself a little bit further and we can talk a little bit about what we've gone through and what the Lord led us to do. But I didn't start out, I started out as a child, pretty selfish, and pretty self centered. And, one of my earliest memories was thinking was actually talking to my younger sister who is three years younger than me. I was probably 10 at the time. And I remember telling her, you know, when I get older, I'm going to be really rich and I'm going to have this big, old mansion. I'm going to have a tennis court inside, a basketball court inside, two pools. I'm going to have all this stuff and just laid up, named off everything in this giant mansion I was going to have. I said, and you can't come in!  And she started crying. And, it's one of my earliest memories about kind of, you know, and it's just a sibling thing, but, I was thinking just about myself and just about all the wealth that I could accumulate, you know, and that carried over into my teen years, when I really began to serve the Lord and he began to work on my heart and I think it's just interesting that generosity would become like one of Linda and I's biggest passions. and so over the next couple of years, my introduction to giving and tithing kind of came at a church that I was at, that was not real great. And so I was attending this church and watched a guest preacher come up and, go up to the alter and basically real small church, probably a hundred people. Everybody knew each other. And goes up to the altar and says, I want everyone who's not tithing to raise your hand. I'm a fairly new Christian at this point. And I'm like, this does not feel right. Is this what's normal? You know? And I I've since learned that that's not normal. And so he goes on to two people in the congregation, raised their hands and he called them up to the altar and he just continued to kind of berate them in front of the entire congregation for not tithing. And, you know, and as a very new believer, I I'm like, I, this just doesn't feel right. I just don't think this makes sense. And thankfully in my Bible, I went on to read in second Corinthians 9, where talking about, you should not give out of compulsion, you know, And it's like that certainly was compulsion. But anyway, my point is, this is kind of how I was introduced to this idea of tithing. So it wasn't the best introduction. but I, you know, as I studied this principle more, I came to realize that it's not about giving to the preacher. It's not about giving to church even, it's about giving to God. And so that was kind of how we got started by giving 10% of our income. And we did support our local church with it. And at that point, we just noticed, I don't know, everything seem to make a lot more sense financially. It was really weird. but yeah, it just seemed like everything began to click a lot better. and we had some kind of really cool miraculous things happen around that financially. But everything was just working better. And then we noticed that God would just kind of call us to give a little bit more and do a little more here and just always stretching us a little bit towards this a little bit uncomfortable and a little bit like, ah, I don't know about that, but we'll do it because I feel like this is what you're asking us to do. And then ultimately that kind of led to when I was 31 years old, I was kind of spending some time praying in a field. And I was praying about some financial struggles that we were having, you know, kind of praying for the solution to these problems, these financial problems and these financial goals that we wanted to reach. And I felt the Lord just kind of, you know, impress in my heart. If you want to see me really move on your finances, I want you to give your age as a percentage of your income. And so I was 31 at the time and I. You know, it took me a minute. Like, what is that? Is that even possible? Like, it's we have enough to do that. Like, you know, anyway, so I'm like trying to mentally run the numbers and like, I don't even know if we can make that work. And anyway, so I went back home and talked to Linda and she amazingly, she was on board. She was like, yeah, let's do it. You know? So it's like, all right, let's try this out. So we began doing that and, Yeah, like, this is what is so amazing about this. Like we, well, it seemed like that should have taken us away from our financial goals we're trying to reach. But within that year we had paid off our house. Like, it makes no sense at all, but that's just what happened. And. You know, so it's just really amazing, that he's kind of led us on this journey and the kind of, some of the breakthrough and the financial peace that has come as a result of yielding to what He's asked us to do.    Mary Hunt: [00:23:29] that is, you know, you cannot out-give God. I mean, we hear that. Yeah. We have other people say that but it's hard to turn that loose in your life. That is difficult because. But I'll tell you what I can tell you the same kinds of stories. And it's absolutely true that people need to experience this for themselves. That is great. You know, I hate to tell you this, but what have you lived to be a hundred?   Bob Lotich: [00:23:55] Yeah, no, I'm excited. I think it'll be fun challenge. Yeah. I mean, that's one of my goals. I can't wait till we get to the point where we're giving away 90% of our income and I hope we get to do it before age 90.    Mary Hunt: [00:24:06] All right. So, so Bob, I know that you have a practice in your life that I would love to put into my life, and I would not even know where to begin. And that is that you take sabbatical time. Time off, time to get away. Now, I kind of relate to this, or I know a lot of our listeners can, because we've all been given a bit of a sabbatical over the last couple of months, especially folks who have been furloughed or laid off from their jobs unexpectedly, but yeah. Can you tell us about that? How you do it, how often you do it and what that has helped, what has that done for your life?    Bob Lotich: [00:24:43] Yeah, so, you know, being a business owner, like you are like, it's, it's scary taking one day and just stepping away from your business. It's your baby. And it always feels like you need to care for it and you need to be present. And so. probably about seven or eight years ago, I decided I was going to take one week off and step away from the business. And I kind of felt like I was supposed to do this, but I was also terrified and I decided I wasn't gonna check email the entire time. Wasn't gonna check any comments. It wasn't just completely stepping away for entire week. And I was terrified. I was just absolutely terrified that when I came back, it was going to be gone. It would have blown up. It would have been hacked. It would have any number of things. And, but I did it and I made it through that week and it felt really good and it just really provided a lot of clarity of mind that I needed at the time. And, and so anyway, so I just really enjoyed that and I decided about six months later, a year later, I wanted to try to press it and stretch a little bit more. And I asked what if we do this for an entire month? And, and the same feelings of just like fear. And there's no way we can actually do this. we're there, it was just really present and I was really scared and again, same type of thing. And, but we started to do it and again, like stepped away from email from entire month. that time I was a little bit of a chicken and I told my assistant, I had assistant at the time. And I told her that was going to call her once a week and just check in with her and make sure everything was okay. But after that month, the benefits that I received from it were so wonderful that I, I've done it every year since. And I've just, I've just been so addicted to the benefit of it. And so we can talk a little bit about that. You know, one of those biggest benefits for me is just being able to see things from a 10,000 foot view. Because, I'm the type of person who is, I just put my head down and I just work and I run towards whatever the thing I'm doing. And it, when, if you're a worker like that, who isn't real great at stepping back and looking at the big picture, like you can just do that and do that for years and years on end and find yourself somewhere where you don't want to be. And where you never intended to go. Or building a business that, you know, controls you and runs your life rather than a business that you run. Or whatever the thing may be. Down a career path that you never intended to go down. But being able to step back just completely decompress and take an honest look at where you are, where you want to go and do that with a clear head has been so incredibly valuable for me. That, yeah, it's like I'm sold on it and we're addicted and we're just going to keep doing it.   Mary Hunt: [00:27:32] That is amazing. So what is, what is the longest sabbatical you've taken?    Bob Lotich: [00:27:37] Yeah. Well, I can tell you about that one too. I was really gonna freak you out. So,    Mary Hunt: [00:27:41 I already know, what's coming.   Bob Lotich: [00:27:43] Three years ago, we, And this one, wasn't my idea at all. but I felt like the Lord was leading me to take an entire year off.  And, and so in 2017, we stepped away from the business for an entire year, which, and every single time, like it's just absolutely terrifying. And every single time, like I watched God sustain us through it, cover us financially through it and, and cover all the things that I'm worried about and freaked out about. And that year was no different. And, and in fact, like the timing of it was really special and precious. So we, that year we had kind of put our name in the hat to adopt. And the agency we, that we were working with at the time said, you know, they're really kind of cookie cutter and had really good systems in place. And they said, basically we bring birth mothers in, in a three to four month range after they've gotten pregnant. And so basically you have, you know, five or six months heads-up notice you can get everything prepared. And so you can get to know the birth mother and all these things, you know, for this phase. It's like, this is our standard process. This is how we do it. So we had done that about three months. It right at the beginning of the year and in three months had gone by and we hadn't heard anything. And it was about March of that year when kind of we made this decision to take this year sabbatical thing. And, within four weeks of deciding that we were going to do this, we got a call from the adoption agency, after not hearing anything from them for three months. They said we actually have a special situation. We have a little girl who was actually born last night and the birth mother, you know, has picked you guys. And so, if you, you know, approve, then we can move forward with this. So we got off the phone and, prayed about it for about 10 minutes. And we drove down to Alabama and picked up our little baby girl. And the timing of it was just so wonderful because I had so much stuff planned that year that I don't know that we could have handled it. Because you know, for anyone who doesn't know when you do this, like you have to, so we had to drive down to Alabama and plan on being there for 14 days. Cause it's an interstate adoption. And that's the process. Is you just have to stay there and you have to live out of a hotel with a newborn, and whatever, until you can get back. And then in our case, like, because we were expecting the six month kind of lead in, like we had gotten rid of our car seat, we'd given it to, Linda's, sister. And we had gotten rid of all of our baby clothes and given them to someone else. So like we were starting from scratch. We literally, I had to run from the hospital to Target, to buy baby clothes and to buy a car seat. Just so unprepared! Anyway, so the timing just worked out so well. It was wonderful that I get to spend most of that first year with her. Just really, really precious time that, I will cherish forever.    Mary Hunt: [00:30:25] And it's amazing. I just love that. Well, you've got to answer the question of, do you have a staff who kept the business going?  Or? Bob Lotich: [00:30:33] Yeah, small, very small. so we have an operations manager, who just kind of helps and assists with a lot of, just the day to day operations and she ran, kept things afloat while we did it. But, but because like our businesses is a blog, you know, and we have some courses that we offer and we have, you know, podcasts, YouTube channel, all that stuff. Basically, we just put content on pause for the entire year. And so we would send out an email once a month or so, just to offer some of our previous content that we had done, you know, so just kind of reusing some of that content, but basically the question I had to ask and figuring out how to actually make this work is. How do I do this sabbatical, in an, you know, and honor that as much as possible, while still honoring the students that we had, you know, some were paying for access to me. So I honored those commitments, which was probably about 30 to 60 minutes a week, relatively small, but I wanted to honor that because they'd paid for access to me. And then I wanted to just continue to, if there was a way to automate serving our audience. And so what we did was through email, we just republished articles that were evergreen. that I had written years earlier, there were still timely and relevant. And so our operations manager kind of assisted with that. And she handles all of the emails that came in for the entire year handled comments and like a lot of those things. So that was practically how, kind of, how we worked through that.    Mary Hunt: [00:32:03] It sounds to me like you have a book in there somewhere.    Bob Lotich: [00:32:06] Yeah. so I'm working on a book now and that a good bit of that is going to be in there. I think    Mary Hunt: [00:32:11] that's great.  Yeah,  thanks so much for being with us. One last thing. So anything that you would like our DPL and everyday cheapskate listeners to know?    Bob Lotich: [00:32:20] Yeah. I mean, yeah, kind of summing up or to put in a bow on everything that we've just talked about here. The, the thing that's so interesting to me about kind of the convergence of God and money is that if we allow him, like, if we are bold to follow him in obedience and the things that he's asking us to do. Like, it's an absolute, amazing adventure. Like, I, I cannot, you know, when I became a Christian, I thought life was going to be really boring and whatever. Like I just had this, these visions that I am, you know, agreeing to sign up to this incredibly boring life and by following Jesus and really just going after it and leaning into these things, like it has been the most wild and amazing adventure that he has led us on. And that is. My encouragement. It's like, if you're living, what feels like a boring mundane life, like just lean into God, like, cause that's where things really will start change for you.    Mary Hunt: [00:33:14] That's great. Thank you so much, Bob, for being with us and I want everyone listening. Go visit Bob's blog, seedtime.com. You're going to love it and you are going to love  all of the stuff he and Linda do. They do live, facebook live. They do YouTube. You'll get to know them and their family. It's fantastic. Thanks so much, Bob.    Bob Lotich: [00:33:37] Thank you, Mary. Really, really appreciate you having me.   Julie Emerson: [00:33:43] Debt-Proof Living with Mary Hunt was created and hosted by, Mary Hunt. Produced by Julie Emerson, with Harold Hunt, Executive Producer. Save time. Save money. Every Day.  Make it easy on yourself! Become part of the community and subscribe for free at www.everydaycheapskate.com. That's where you will find all the ways you can follow Mary, Everyday Cheapskate, and Debt-Proof Living. Thanks for listening! 

- Jason Seiden That meant that I would gladly, if I could be the last person ever lose a child. I would I would take that on, if I could, to say it like that's how horrible it is that I don't ever want anybody else to feel it. And so other folks actually telling me that they're happy and that they're like, I think they would feel like I would feel worse, like rubbing it in.   - Jason Seiden But actually, no, you know, that's it's the opposite. Like live your life. And tell me you've opened up your eyes and you're stepping into it and you're aware of the discomfort and you're aware about the hard choices you're making and you're doing it and you're celebrating those wins because they're so few and far between. Those were, the those were the best things.   INTRO   Jason Seiden is joining me today to talk about his daughter Elle.  Elle was passionate about social justice causes, possessed of a sardonic humor.  She was insightful and creative…and she is dead.  She committed suicide after suffering from debilitating pain due to CRPS (complex regional pain syndrome) diagnosis and committed suicide at fifteen years old.    What does it mean to honor her legacy, to remember her in all her fullness?  What does it mean as a father to live a life that encompasses such a profound loss but is not ultimately defined by that pain?  Jason is articulate, reflective, and honest in this powerful conversation.    Before we begin, I’d like to thank our sponsors.  First, we are sponsored by FullStack PEO.  Providing full-service solutions for entrepreneurs and small business, FullStack manages the details so you can get back to doing what you do best, running your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care HR Solutions, with engaging, interactive training ans coaching sessions, we empower you to give meaningful support to your people as they go through disruptive life events.    Back to our conversation.  First, as a sidenote, Jason was sitting outside during the first part of our conversation due to water damage and clean up crews in his house…and you might hear the birds singing under some of his thoughts.   In the months after my daughter, Mercy, died, someone reflected that there wasn’t a word in the English language for a parent who has a child die.  If your spouse dies, you are a widow.  If your parent dies, you are an orphan.  It is almost like the death of a child feels so against the nature of things that language itself can’t encompass the loss.    Jason and I began our conversation talking about the difficulty of talking about the death of a child.  Jason has founded and sold businesses, he is a gifted teacher, trainer and communicator.  He recalled putting together a presentation on the fly.   So. Yeah. So I a 19 and a half minute clip. And I lost the teleprompter halfway through. And still in one take was done in less than 20 minutes.   - Jason Seiden And then my partner at the time spent three hours trying to record the same 20 minute clip. Yep. This is hard. They said this is this is you know, I'm speaking from a much different place and I'm surprised at how difficult it is.   - Liesel Mertes One person's journey is not anyone else's. But I remember specifically in that the aftermath of my daughter Mercy dying. It felt so in. I mean, there's so many things that make it feel de-centered. And but for me, like if there's anything that I traffic in and feel comfortable in the world, it's words like it's it's been able to communicate. Similarly, you know, I have my own stories of like know what? Like I feel adept in that realm.   - Liesel Mertes And to come to a place where it's like I. I feel. It just feels different. And it felt it felt like it it have done a skill set, that it was like I'm normally so comfortable doing this.   - Liesel Mertes How could even this feel altered? Well, you're aspects of that.   - Jason Seiden And I know you well, I want to talk about the journey since losing Elle. But I think this is this is actually a great opener because it's it's true. I've journaled my entire life. I've written my entire life. I've written books. I have novel length stories that you'll never see the light of day written. And when when I wrote after her passing, I went back to read some of those journals. And some of them are very clear, like, this is a man who's in pain and who's articulate about it.   - Jason Seiden And then there's other journal entries that are just noise. It's you read those you like. Oh, that's what it looks like. It's unintelligible. It's it's it's complete. It's just you. These are not sentences. These are not phrases. That makes sense. These are, this is raw stuff. And it's remarkable. And you kind of say to yourself, I'm good with words. I lived with a thesaurus, I'm specific with them. And if I'm struggling to find just even the basics, how is everybody else going to do?   - Jason Seiden Right. You know, we don't we don't step into things that are hard. We tend to avoid things that are hard. And this is this is the hardest. So I think most people avoid grief when possible. Certainly the kind of grief that we've had. And that just means, they're completely unprepared. I was entirely unprepared for what happened. And trust me, if I could have avoided it, I would have. It's a hell of a journey to be to find yourself in particular for the first time.   - Jason Seiden And then also you are surrounded by people who are equally as inarticulate to help.   - Liesel Mertes And that's you know, that gets to also the profoundly isolating nature of grief because to to communicate where you are, like it's hard enough to just know, like, you feel like you're throwing words against a wall. But to be able to be understood by another person and that can just feel so daunting. Like, I don't even know how I'm feeling. And now I've got to find some words to have, you know, what I'm feeling.   - Liesel Mertes And maybe it's just better to be alone. You know, it can be that retreat. And to just I don't even know.   - Jason Seiden Yeah, well, I think there's a, I think there's a lot of truth to that. If I go back, I still default. I bridge that problem with something that I started defaulting to the week Elle passed. So I lost my daughter a year and a half ago. Coming up on two years, actually. And she, she died of suicide. She had been very sick prior to that. And she was in intense pain. She had a condition called CRPS. complex regional pain syndrome.   - Jason Seiden And it's it's just it's nerve pain. And it's always on. It never stops. Nerve pain, like when the dentist hits the nerve in your tooth and you hit the ceiling. And she had it in both her legs treatments for years. Nothing was was helping. It was getting worse in certain circles. It's actually known as the suicide disease because it doesn't have the decency to kill you. But, yeah, it's it's close. You know, it's terminal.   - Jason Seiden Who can live with that pain or that amount of time? So there's others, too. It sounds awful, but there's this one benefit that I got, which was despite having lost her to suicide. I don't I don't wonder. Could I have done more? Was there you write like that. Mental health is invisible. And it's real, but it's invisible and it's it's difficult as a human to accept things you don't see without wondering, could I have had some sort of control over that?   - Jason Seiden And when it's physical and you can see it, it's a little bit easier to go. I couldn't control that. That was a thing. And it was a whole conversation we could have around mental health and how it needs to be in the same category. But for, for this, what I wanted to say was in those early days, the words that it was that were most easy for people to find were were those around how Elle died, what she died of, what her condition was prior.   - Jason Seiden And I very quickly found myself initially trapped by that. It put me in the past. It put me you know, I had, had this journey of trying to help her and in all kinds of stuff was going on. You can imagine the complexity of the dynamics of dealing with, by the way, not only a crippling disease, but the most misdiagnosed disease out there. Right. It just was so I didn't want to be in that space. And it kind of struck me one day to a lot of thinking and metaphors.   - Jason Seiden And I couldn't find the words myself, but I had this metaphor that sort of hit me. I'm talking about Elle in terms of CRPS would be like talking about MLK, Martin Luther King, in terms of gun rights, you know, or Anwar Sadat in terms of gun rights. It's like, yeah, these guys were assassinated. That's true. But they stood for something else. They lived for something else. What they lived for what they died of were totally different.   - Jason Seiden To make MLK the poster child of gun rights would be to lose his legacy as a civil rights leader. What a shame. You know, you kind of you know, you'd have to kind of look at him and go, OK, technically true, but we're not going to use him for that. Like, we're not gonna make him. And I don't mean to use him. Right. But we're not going to. That's just not going to be his legacy.   - Jason Seiden And with Elle, sorry, it was just it was the same thing. You know, she was a social warrior. She lived for stuff that she didn't die of. And so I found those words and I found it. Redirecting people really helped me control my narrative. And I still do that. I still use that today.   - Liesel Mertes And tell me a little bit more about her, about some of the things that made her distinctly her and those causes. And particularly if, you know, she's she's a she's a fully fledged person behind the memory I'd love to hear more.   - Jason Seiden Yeah, absolutely. And so very early on before she was born, I just had a feeling about Elle. And I've got I've got two daughters there and I've learned first on Elle. And it's just proven true with my other daughter as well, that as a parent, my job was just to get the stuff off the high shelf.   - Jason Seiden You know, these kids coming up, they're fully formed. They're they're, a bit like flowers. Right? Do they have to for all. They have to blossom. But the flowers in there.   - Jason Seiden Nothing I could do to change the raw material. And and, you know, so Elle was very special. She, she had a wicked sense of humor. Like, just even from a very, very like an impossibly young age. Understood sarcasm. I don't know if your grandparents on your side. I mean, she couldn't because she couldn't have been like more than a year old. And my grandparents would come and babysit her for more than once. She's understanding sarcasm. Yeah.   - Jason Seiden I changed the tone of my voice. And she doesn't laugh. I flip the words around. She looked like she only laughs when it's a deadpan opposite, you know? The description is deadpan and opposite of what's true. She is following sarcasm. And it just, it was why she was always very tapped in. She she just you know, she came to this world with knowledge that you look at her and. There's no way that that knowledge came from five years of existence on this planet.   - Jason Seiden It's just kind be living proof of something bigger.   - Jason Seiden  And she had a way of getting noticed. I'll tell you one story, which is just one of our segments. When the girls were maybe 7 years old, I took to sort of overnight count drops kids leave families rent cabins, and then have a dozen families in those camps all up in Sweetwater, skier No.12 things. They did a talent show and one girl after another is getting up and doing cartwheels and walkovers.   - Jason Seiden And they're up there for ten seconds. Let me run off the stage, get going.  Elle gets up there and start a cappella singing. Don't stop believing.   That's awesome.   - Jason Seiden And the camp director stops her, runs up to the stage. Wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And I'll think something's. She turns on all the equipment plugs in her iPod, iPod, and let's Elle do the full five, five and a half minute song scene over Steve Perry. We're all downloading on our phones. The lighter apps are holding them up like a concert.   - Jason Seiden And that was Elle, you know, just just being able to put your finger on the gestalt start of the moment and own it. And it is remarkable. And so you're kind of one of the reasons why I don't like thinking of her when she was sick was all of that power. It's not just that it went away. It never went away. So, you know, somebody with that much kind of cosmic ability gets sick, real sick. It's just it's so wrong and so far away from what she works for, what she stood for.   - Jason Seiden She was always so zoned in. So you wanted this story. This is actually relevant to her legacy. So I do a lot of communications work at my house up with certain companies and also internal internal comms. Well, politics has a role in that. And there's an immediate negative connotation to politics that people have. And so to break it out, I would give people this moral dilemma. And, you know, I just let them sit with it where they realize, OK, I may not like politics, but they're real.   - Jason Seiden I can't escape this question. Damned if I do or damned if I don't. It's one of those kinds of things. And I posed it to Elle. She's 10 years old. And Liesel, I'm telling you. Maybe two adults out of hundreds. I posed this question to and Elle heard the question and she said, well, you know, the only way to win is to not play you both these actions. Horrible. It's just a you're just choosing which value you want to violate and which value you want to maintain.   - Jason Seiden That can't be true to yourself with either. You know, I think the outcomes once you're in that position. Like, oh, my God, she's 10. And she understood that. And here so, you know, so it's, it just it felt. It has always felt important to honor, you said, who she was. Things that made her unique.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Those are some remarkable memories of who she was and, yeah, what she brought the color and dynamics.   - Liesel Mertes I want to talk about, yeah, the journey after her death.   - Liesel Mertes I'm, I'm struck that even as you are carrying her legacy, you, you are also shaped by who you needed to become in the midst of watching her be sick.   - Liesel Mertes What were some of the things that you noted in yourself as a parent, at that time, that shaped you?   - Jason Seiden The things that I noted as a person and same things and as a person of. Life has to be lived and risks have to be taken. The only way to not make a mistake is to not play the game. And that's so you're just not safe as a as a parent. I'd always cited my job as kind of two parts, one part keeping my kids safe and two parts helping them unlock who they are and, you know, make the most of this world. And, you know, my daughter's gone. So a very, very fundamental way, I did not keep her safe.   - Jason Seiden We can have a very intellectual conversation, Did I control her getting ill. And, of course, like, you know what? No, of course not. But it's like you're never going to tell me. I will never be able to feel that as a parent because she's gone. I. So this the game, whatever, whatever that's I was making whatever balance I was trying to strike between keeping you safe in the world or the game with her. It was frozen.   - Jason Seiden Right. It's it's lockdown. There is no no more time on the clock. There's no hope. There's no tomorrow. There's nothing's going to change. And so they're validating that recognition that there is no safe there. There is no harm.   - Jason Seiden By the way, not only do you have to play the game and not only your mistakes be made, but there's consequences for those mistakes. People will be hurt when you make a mistake. I've had to I've had to come to grips with that both as a parent and as a human.   - Jason Seiden And it's, it's, you start to see the world a different way.   - Liesel Mertes What, what does, I'm struck by how profound and. Yeah. Awful. That feeling is because so much of what we get to do living in like a wealthy, affluent, you know, society is we don't have to feel unsafe in so many areas of life. And and to feel it at such a visceral level is horrible. When you say, you know, I've had to come to grips with that. What has that looked like for you?   - Jason Seiden I don't know. That's a powerful question. I'm not sure what it looks like, but I'll tell you, it feels like things. It feels like my life before was it's just been pulled to the extremes. And I'm not dealing with any emotions that were foreign to me. I'm just dealing with a lot more of them. So it's funny, I actually said, you know, here's this girl who introduced me to stretch my capacity for joy in one direction. And then the passion stretched my capacity for sorrowing another.   - Jason Seiden On some level, like how do you just not feel gratitude for somebody who gives you more life to live? And. It shows like that.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Jason Seiden You're constantly playing other people's emotions at life events and realities. You have to live your life. If you live boldly, you will. Other people will be hurt. And you have to be OK with that. I'm not saying you should be indiscriminate or not care. I'm just saying to be simultaneously OK, moving in the light, doing your best, try and take care of people and understanding you can't save everybody. In fact, the act of saving one person might cause somebody else to be hurt.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. And you feel it if it goes through an intellectual concept to something, you feel very deeply and constantly.   - Liesel Mertes Elle died. And you said it's been a year and a half.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. A little more coming up on two years.   - Liesel Mertes Okay. Still, when something horrible happens like that and even, you know, the. The journey of walking with an often misdiagnosed disease. All of those things. What were you finding that you, what were people offering you in the way of, like comfort or presence in that, you know, messy aftermath? That was really meaningful to you? Or even now, just things that you'd say, "Man like these people did it really well. They came alongside me and it mattered?"   - Jason Seiden It's for windchimes. So that's, that's Elle. They went off the top of our call and I just heard them.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. So. For so long, surprised at how much. I'm not somebody who asks for a lot of emotional support. Probably not dissimilar from a lot of men that way. But I was surprised at how much I actually needed it.  They were largely, I was really struck in the immediate aftermath at how supportive people were. It was absolutely incredible.   - Jason Seiden My professional colleagues are scattered all over the country, all over the world. And without my without my engagement, a few of them, Mark Stelzner, Lori Rudiment. Susan Strier.   - Jason Seiden I had friends who, you know, without without my help. I put up a page and tribute to Elle. She she died a couple of weeks before my birthday day. They promoted it for my birthday, a tribute to Elle and I just watched, I watched for  for twenty five thousand dollars get raised in a day in honor of my daughter for a small handful of charities. The Human Rights Campaign, chief amongst them. The United Colors Foundation, which helps LGBTQ homeless youth and Burning Land, which is a CRPS foundation. And it was it was absolutely incredible.   - Jason Seiden The next thing I know, the CRPS Foundation has a grant in its name that had been funded. HRC flew a flag in my daughter's honor, which I now have. It's it was astounding. So, in the immediate aftermath, how important, it was incredible,   - Jason Seiden As you can imagine. You know, as time goes on, everyone goes back to their lives. I've had a handful of people have continued to reach out. And it's so helpful. On the homefront. Everybody here has been incredibly helpful.   - Liesel Mertes What has that continuing to reach out looked like?   - Jason Seiden Literally just a check in and a thinking of you. That is all it takes.   - Liesel Mertes I think sometimes people fear that because they think out of the person doesn't want to talk. Or what if it brings up bad memories? Maybe I just won't do that. From your experience, how would you speak into like that, that cycle of second guessing that people can have as they should. I reach out and I'm out. What if they don't want to talk   - Jason Seiden I'd go back to what I was saying before? You have to live your life. You might make mistakes. Go make the damn mistake. Engage and you know. OK. So I'll tell you, the waffling shows up. And from my perspective, as the one going through this, It shows up and I can see it a mile away and I end up in a position then of having to take care of the people who are reaching out to me. Sure. I know it's fairly common. And, you know, and you do a great sweat.   - Jason Seiden I mean, like, this is such a horrible thing. I get it. We don't spend time with this if we don't have to. I'll assume it happens to you or something you're close to. You don't have to. Yes. So the, the, the fact that people are unprepared for it, I'm not surprised. The most helpful thing, we just when people reach out.   - Jason Seiden Actually, the most helpful thing is when people would reach out and say, I'm thinking of you. I just had a lovely time with my family. Oh, great day. And I was thinking of you and I was thinking about. And I gave my kids an extra hug and I made sure I didn't take it for granted. That made me happy.   - Jason Seiden And it's, it's so funny with these people would reach out and, I can't imagine what you're going through. And I always look at them and be like, why would you take one moment of your life and try to imagine what I'm going through? But yet we all know it's horrible. Don't waste your time. Just write like it's horrible. Check the box pass, you know. You know, it's a kids with, you know. This is gross. Taste it. No, no, no. Not to me.   - Jason Seiden Yeah. It's like that. Except with consequence, you know. No. Right.   - Jason Seiden I actually loved when people would tell me that, you know, they were thinking of me and they weren't taking the life for granted as a result because that meant that Elle counted.   - Jason Seiden That meant that I would gladly, if I could be the last person ever lose a child. I would I would take that on, if I could, to say it like that's how horrible it is that I don't ever want anybody else to feel it. And so other folks actually telling me that they're happy and that they're like, I think they would feel like I would feel worse, like rubbing it in.   - Jason Seiden But actually, no, you know, that's it's the opposite. Like live your life. And tell me you've opened up your eyes and you're stepping into it and you're aware of the discomfort and you're aware about the hard choices you're making and you're doing it and you're celebrating those wins because they're so few and far between. Those were, the those were the best things. Yeah.   - Jason Seiden I mean, I will say because it's relevant. I mean, we we. We tend to think of our personal life happening in one area, in our professional life happening in another. And they don't. A decade ago, I actually coined a term, "profersonal" for, you know, this notion of the bleed over. You know, we spend a lot of time working. And so what was really surprising was how difficult that transition was without the folks on the work front doing some of that, acknowledging as well.   - Jason Seiden Not just my friends. But, you know, this is where I'm spending my time. It really helps when, when professional colleagues check in as well. Otherwise, your your work starts to feel like just this void where it's like I have to go put on a, you know, put on a mask for the majority of my day.   - Jason Seiden You know, I I think this notion of. The notion of grief at work is not trivial. It's a huge part of people's days. And, you know, I'll say I worked at it at an organization when this went down. You know, the organization I was with great culture, phenomenal culture. But this was a this was a blindspot. And it showed, and it it had an impact, like the journey could have been different.   - Jason Seiden And. What I, what I could  have done quicker or more of, I think would have been. It would have been. I could've done more. Yeah, I couldn't move through some of this faster. And. And at the end of the day, I think there's a real. You know, I I'm getting through it. I will get through it. But I think the organization lost something. And when you kind of look at large organizations with hundreds or thousands of people, here we are in COVID, and the loss is real.  People are losing people.   - Jason Seiden And there there's complicated grief happening out because they're they're unable to be with the ones they love. Now is the time to actually step into this and to have that compassion. The benefits are are substantial. They're. And they're there at multiple levels. The economic benefit, the just, the benefit to us as humans. I think it's important that our organizations step into this breach and start recognizing grief is something that we all have a responsibility for helping people through.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Jason Seiden You know what it is? I'll preface this by saying I don't blame anybody. It's not an area. We haven't quite evolved to this yet. I think we're on the front edge. I think people such as yourself are on the cutting edge of bringing awareness to the business environment, of the importance of dealing with grief effectively. So, you know, we're we're getting out.   - Jason Seiden We're getting a handle on DNI. And I think in that same bucket. This is this is their belonging. When you start thinking about belonging as a as a goal for DNI. Well, belonging. If you're dealing with something that nobody else is dealing with, whatever that thing is, that's your your barrier to belonging. So hopefully as we kind of move in this area, the will all get better. But, you know, it's little things. It's.   - Jason Seiden First of all, texts and messages from people are super helpful. Doesn't take much. It's just like, hey, just checking in. How you doing? The gap is experienced when you don't get those more, when the only time you do get them is on the front end of a call where you're talking about other stuff. Because, you know, I would get that from my manager. Looking back, I think the only times there were check-ins were back at the top of a call.   - Jason Seiden I'd be like, hey, how you doing? OK, great. So here's like the five things that we've got to go through today, right?   - Liesel Mertes It feels like. Yeah. Just like, hey, are you are you ready? I'm with tasks because I certainly am.    - Jason Seiden And so in, you know, like, OK, great. And so it's it doesn't count, you know. And it creates this problem with the other person thinks, I'm checking in. And you're like, no, no. You're just making sure that I'm ready to go through your agenda. That's not a check-in.   - Jason Seiden That's like.   - Jason Seiden It's like, you know, is your you know. Can you can you mute the background noise? It's it's administrative at that point.   - Liesel Mertes Different than having, a specific time that is not encumbered by any other aspects of an agenda that would, you know, crowd it out. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Sometimes people say ill conceived, offensive, stupid things to people who are grieving.  What were some of the least helpful things that you heard? That you say, you'd say, you know, you can do all kinds of things, there's a margin of error, but don't do this. Let me do you a favor. Don't do this.   So I'll give you so I'll give you three answers. Number one, there's always some people who are close to you who are surprising in their lack of support And so I had two of those two people who just AWOL, like shockingly AWOL. Oh, my gosh. Right. So that's. The lack of saying something is saying something. There are, then there are people who make it about themselves.   - Jason Seiden So when I was getting married, I remember the people who were in the inner circle. Right. You're a close friend. We'll get married and you find that the venue was small and you'd call and be like, dude, totally get it wherever you need to see this, totally fine as long as I'm in the venue. You do what you gotta do because you're going to have some issues here with your seating chart so you can see it coming.   - Jason Seiden I mean, it was the bubble. People like the people who were barely they barely made the cut. They're the ones who would be pissed that they weren't in the bridal party, too. They're like, dude, this is so backwards. Same thing in reverse. You know, my best friend like that. You know, Lori and Mark and Susan putting that thing together. That is so incredible. The people who showed up and who were part of it.   - Jason Seiden Amazing. And then, you know, there are the like the one or two people who who are like I was just I was appreciative that they showed up. And then I find out later they were angry that I didn't include them in the planning. And I'm like, they are so far out. They had no idea; I had nothing to do with the planning. But this was all you have a group coming together for me, like this wasn't me orchestrating.   - Jason Seiden I wasn't using Elle to. This is happening in support of her.   - Jason Seiden Right. And so that that's been that's been disappointing. You know, again, there's nothing that gets said. You just hear about that stuff sort of second hand. Right.   - Jason Seiden Then then the third part is just people who don't know what to say and you know, and they try. And I actually appreciate these people. It's it's hard for everybody. I can't tell you how many people asked me, how are you feeling today? And I'm like, you know what?   - Jason Seiden Good. Right. OK. Awesome. Like you went digging. You found the Sheryl Sandberg Plan B. Quote. And Granny read the headline and you're giving that to me. When you start getting the same question over and over again, it's it's hard. You know, I like you. You wish people would kind of real deeper or maybe find another avenue or, you know, kind of go, OK. But everybody else is saying this. So can I find the next thing?   - Jason Seiden Can I can I have the conversation to the second sentence? And so I don't want to. I want to discourage people cause it's so important to get started. I think it's just also really important to be thoughtful and to not stop at the first perceived solution. So it's not that those people said anything bad, it's that the ones who go beyond stand out that much more.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I hear that I'm struck. So I am reading there has been a book that that has just been published. I think it's it's called Meaning, The Sixth Stage of Grief. I'm going to check that for sure. But it's, it's a researcher who had worked with the Elizabeth Kubler Ross Foundation and after the death of his son said, you know, I feel like although these five stages that were described, they're not linear. They were never meant to be that way.   - Liesel Mertes But that the fact that an important stage for a number of people is actually the meaning that they are able to make in the aftermath of loss. Not that we. And he says there's a diversity of ways that can be another. The death in and of itself is meaningful. But there are different ways of making meaning from this and how the people who live beyond that integrate a loss or grief into their lives   - Jason Seiden Kessler.   - Liesel Mertes Yes. Yes. Have you read his book?   - Jason Seiden I have not read it yet. It's on the list.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, I've heard him on an interview.   - Liesel Mertes It's I've appreciated it so far. It strikes me that making meaning has been an important aspect for you. Tell me what making meaning has looked like for you.   - Jason Seiden Yeah, it's some. I hadn't really thought about it until I kind of heard the concept and realized, yes. This is true. Life is really random. Right. So here's, here's something that that death does. It brings a finality to a relationship that cannot be undone. And it leaves you, you know, it's like the other side of the game. A tug of war drops the rope and you're just and you're left in this you're flying backwards stage.   - Jason Seiden Except there's no there's no hard ground to land on. There is no other person to laugh that they let go of the rope like you are now potentially flying forever in the wrong direction. And finding meaning is really for me. It's been around, you know planting my feet under me and just bringing that momentum to a stop and recognizing I can't honor Elle if I'm crumpled in a ball on the floor. I can't honor Elle if I'm in the past, you know, grieving her illness or thinking of her sick.   - Jason Seiden I can't honor Elle if I'm in the future, if I'm anxious about will this happen again and like this happen to somebody else and what if and what if I hurt somebody? And what if I'm responsible?   - Jason Seiden What if I did? None of that helps. And so for me, finding meaning has been around what Elle stand for. How can I honor her? What should I do? What can I do today that she would be proud of? And really, that's about grounding myself in the present and finding a way to conduct myself. That starts just getting through my day. Right. It's like, OK, I can't honor her if I'm crumpled on the floor.   - Jason Seiden So what does that mean? It means I have to choose to be happy. I have to choose to live like I have to choose to get up. I have to have to choose to try. So that looks like putting my feet on the floor. Getting out of bed, making the bed, making coffee, certain, basic stuff. And as and as I kind of got that underway, then it was like, OK, well, what am I doing?   - Jason Seiden What should I go do today? Well, I should be healthy. I should go for a run. You know, the CRPS attacked your legs. I'm going to go run. And I'm I'm I'm go use that part of my body that she couldn't. Because if I were you know, it's like if I want people to tell me that they're happy and they're not taking their families for granted, I have to assume she'd want the same. And so I'm going to do that.   - Jason Seiden And, and right then it cascades up from kind of the basic stuff to what am I doing, like, on a higher level and my leaving the world a better place. Am I taking care of the people around me? But at the end of the day, finding meaning has been around grounding myself in the present so that I can honor her in a way that also allows me to move forward.   - Liesel Mertes I think that there are some people who would hear something like that, you know, they would this, Elle want me to live fully and be happy and I'm purposing to do that, that for some people that can morph into, I'm, I'm just not going to think about these unpleasant feelings anymore. When they come up, it could be its own form of avoidance and pushing those things away. How do you, how do you live into that meaning without just ignoring the painful feelings that can crop up unexpectedly?   - Liesel Mertes How do you still acknowledge and honor some of that sadness and emotion?   - Jason Seiden Easier said than done. I can't say that I do that perfectly. This is, this is not a topic that I speak easily about and I actually don't speak a lot about because it is hard to step into those feelings without kind of getting lost. But.   - Jason Seiden I think. For me. If I'm totally candid there are parts of it that could feel sacrilegious. There are times where moving forward actually feels like it's gonna be disrespectful like that, the respectful thing to do would be to sit and cry and grieve and be a mess and that the way to honor her would be show her how important she was by showing her how incapable I am of moving forward without her.   - Jason Seiden And at those moments, it's a hard choice and the hard choice is to remember, we are all individual people on this planet and me doing that, me, quote unquote, honoring her in that way would be to lose two lives. So that doesn't work.   - Jason Seiden And then you get. Right. So that's, that's sort of one path. And so I just I allowed the emotions and the thoughts to kind of carry me to get to that point. And I'm like, OK, I can't do this.   - Jason Seiden It doesn't work. So even though the other side, even though moving forward doesn't feel right, I just proved to myself that sitting here in a bar wallowing doesn't work. So I'm going to go make that choice. That doesn't feel right, not because I'm drawn to it, but because I am repelled by this other thing.   - Jason Seiden And then, and then there's another part too, which is there's a piece of it that's like, well, to honor her feels like picking up her torch. And carrying that and becoming the social worker, becoming her, doing the things that. And I run into the same problem. We're different people. He, you know, I can support her causes and I am. But I'm I'm taking my time because, this happened to me. It could very easily be the thing that defines me.   - Jason Seiden And I've spent my entire life to defining myself to be something else. I'm not ready to just let this become the thing. You know, there's the guy lost. That's not who I am. What I want to be is the guy who shows people how to continue to be themselves. Even when something like this happens.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah.   - Jason Seiden And so, you know, so there's a it's it's hard, you know. What does it look like and how does it feel? Sometimes it feels sacrilegious. Other times it feels like I get selfish.   - Liesel Mertes We are drawing near the close of our time. But I'm struck in that last thing you said, you know, you are you are not just a man who has had his daughter die.   - Liesel Mertes What are some interesting things that you like about yourself that make you you?   - Jason Seiden You know, it's a surprisingly hard question.   - Liesel Mertes Sometimes it can be. I have a friend who would do that to people on their birthdays. He would be like, you need to tell all of us three things you like about yourself. I felt kind of awkward.   - Jason Seiden I live out loud. I, I, I make my mistakes. My my dad used to say, my dad says, own your mistakes. They're the only things other than your name that other people won't try and take credit for.   - Liesel Mertes And it's a great line.   - Jason Seiden It is. And in this day and age of of digital piracy, your name's not even safe. So, like, literally, my mistakes are the only things I can. So I make them and I do my best to make new ones all the time. I try not to repeat. So I live my life. I learn. I still am learning. I am still open to learn. I don't.   - Jason Seiden I know what I know. And I. I've earned my gray hair once, I don't have to earn it twice like I know when I'm in a situation where I actually have an expertise, but I am well aware that it's a great big world. And, you know, I have like, this tiny speck of knowledge within it.   - Jason Seiden So, I appreciate the fact that at my age I can still look at the world with a certain amount of wonder and to sort of get lost in it and want to know how things work.   - Jason Seiden And. I. You know, I and I'm stronger than I realized. I have a certain amount of resiliency that I'm. This has not been an easy journey, but I'm I'm surrounded by people in this club that I don't want to be in.  But,  those of us who are able to persevere and make something positive of it. I, I see the people who aren't able to do that. And I can I can recognize that I'm I mean, about I have something to offer because the boat I mean, it's the boat of people who are able to move forward. And I'm proud of that.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three reflections from my conversation with Jason.   Even if you aren’t sure of what to do or say, move towards people in their grief.In his words, “Live your life, make the damn mistake,”.  You won’t be perfect and you don’t have to be but your support matters. If you are in a workplace setting with a parent that has lost a child, especially as a manager, make time to actually check-in with them, not just as an entrée to a meeting, ticking a box so you can get on with an agenda item.This might mean scheduling a call or a meeting that isn’t about a to-do list but only about hearing from them about their how they are doing.  Navigating life after the loss of a child is hard.Jason expresses the complex, internal challenge of moving forward, of not letting himself be singularly defined by Elle’s death.  Sometimes it can feel sacrilegious or selfish as he leans into life beyond his daughter, struggling to be and become himself even after tragedy.  If you are struggling in this journey, perhaps you find camaraderie in Jason’s reflections.  And if you know someone who has lost a child, perhaps this gives you additional insight.     OUTRO

Hi everybody. Thank you so much for being here today. I am so excited to introduce you to the owner of The College Investor. His name is Robert Farrington. He's with us today. Robert, you want to say hello? Robert Hey Carey and Everyone, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Cool. And you're, you're out in sunny, Southern California. I'm here in Atlanta. So, um, it's nice place to be during this time of year, especially. No, it's great. I I'm blessed to be able to be here. Awesome. Well, tell us a little about yourself and how you got started with your company, the college investor. Definitely. So I started the college investor, honestly, as a side hustle. When I was finishing college, I had always been passionate about making money investing and, uh, you know, I wanted to share my random thoughts on the topic with people. And I, you know, I really love technology and websites and I saw some other bloggers starting and I was like, you know, I can, I can start a blog and share my thoughts as well. And so that's honestly how it started over 10 years ago now at this point in time. And it's just really grown into a full on, uh, you know, media company at this point in time. But it started just as me wanting to share my random thoughts and kind of evolved quite a bit from there. Wow. That's amazing. And are your customers teenagers, college students, parents? Can you tell us a little bit about who, who, um, you help? Yeah, Definitely. So I started really just wanting to share my thoughts mostly with young adults, right. But at this point in time, I would say most of the people we help are anywhere from college graduates to families, to people approaching retirement. Um, you know, we don't get too many young people and we don't get too many retirees, but everyone in the middle there, um, seems to be who we help. And sadly, I think that kind of reflects more on how who's dealing with student loan debt. Who's trying to get started in life. Who's trying to get investing than anything else. So, um, yeah, we have a really broad range of people we help. That's awesome. Such a needed thing. And I don't think people really know where to turn. So your blog helps with discovery online. Right? And that's it? I mean, So student loans is one of our bread and butter topics and, uh, it's hard because there are so many options out there and there are so few tools out there to help people and the tools that we have, like they don't, people don't trust them because it's like our loan servicers, and they're the ones that are part of the problem. And so, you know, it's really hard for people to get an independent resource, to help them navigate their student loan debt. Um, and then in turn, you know, start building wealth and navigating personal finance because, you know, sadly it's not something that's usually taught in school and, you know, a lot of people's role models might not have been the best in terms of showing them how to do it. That's so true. Yeah. I've heard that, like kids have to move home after college and, um, gosh, with the, with that pandemic now it's even harder to find a job. So can you tell us yeah. What, what services do you provide and can, can you kind of take us through like the buying journey online? Like where did they discover you and kind of, how does it go from there with the various interactions? Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, we're a traditional media site. So the services we really provide are just trying to provide the best in depth, comprehensive knowledge that you can have when it comes to personal finance topics. Um, we do a broad range of editorial content. We also review as many products and services as we can find to give people an honest opinion on, you know, what's legit, what's not legit, what's the best, what's not the best. Um, you know, we do have some products and services as well. We have lone buddy, which is our DIY student loan software. You can put all your information in and, you know, it'll tell you the best outcome for your student loans. Um, but really like, I really want to educate and that's really the bread and butter of what the college investor is. It's designed to educate people on their student loans on their money. And, you know, we really try to be top notch and search we're on social or on video or on audio because I'm also a big believer in meeting people where they're at. And, uh, you know, if people really listen to podcasts, like listen to this show, right? Like they're listening to audio, so can we connect with them there? But you know, there's also a good contingent of people that love YouTube and love videos. So how do we connect with them there? And then of course there's always the traditional reading and searching for things on Google and we want to connect with them there as well. Yeah. Awesome. You sound really savvy like, because you've been and also have been in business for 10 years. That's funny. Yeah. You know, it's, it's hard. I mean, we didn't start there though. I think it's important to, if you're starting out like pick one lane and then iterate as you go forward, because it's a lot of work too. That's right. And you really want to listen to your customers and find out what they're needing and kind of pivot from there. Would you say you're like, are you finding that people are having a harder time now managing their college debt and earning income? Like have you shifted at all since COVID has hit Oh yes. A hundred percent. So it's sad because, you know, there's just topics now that we didn't touch on until now. So unemployment stimulus checks, uh, how to navigate some of the small business loan programs. Um, what's out there for side hustlers, people that were driving for Uber and door dash. How did that, how does that work in the new unemployment system? Um, and these are topics that historically, I mean, in 10 years, we've never really had to dive in and talk about, and, you know, people don't really care so much about other things when they're like, I don't have a job today and I don't know when I'm going to be working again, like what can I do today? And so it's really been important for us to put out the best content we can as fast as we can, but it's also been challenging because I mean, it's been a fire hose of information coming out of Washington DC. And it seems like these programs are changing and shifting and, you know, new proposals are coming out all the time. And so there's also a ton of misinformation out there. And so for us, it's really cutting through all that misinformation, trying to get people what's accurate and timely, um, so that they can, you know, help themselves today. Yeah. That's, that's really so important. And also with mental health now that, you know, they, the reports are saying that mental health in the world really is really getting worse and worse because of the challenges that people have financially, you know, with the relationships that might not be so great at home and stuff like that. So I would think like you providing support and some reassurance that there is a way there are there answers, you know, would probably help a lot of people. Do you have, do you have any stories? I know that's not like something we necessarily talked about, but I was just wondering if any good stories or examples? I mean, it's, it is sad. I do see a lot of it. I mean, sadly, one of the things that has increased in trending a lot is suicide and student loan debt. And a lot of people see that as the option. And it is really heartbreaking because there's a lot of options out there that is definitely not a good option. And, but people don't know how to navigate it. And when people are in such desperate straights and there's not a lot of answers out there and there's definitely no one to help you. And now in this remote day and age where like, you can't necessarily have like someone with you, like it's all virtual, it's even more challenging. So it is definitely challenging. It's sometimes sad to see, but that's why we also try to be there is that source of education be there as those tools and resources so that hopefully people find the answer before it's too late. Yes.... Do you have a Facebook group? I know I went on all your social media. You're on a lot of different platforms. Do you, do you do help people connect with each other? So they don't feel like they're alone?  We Do have a large Facebook group, ....probably about 24,000 people in it.  you know, I keep it pretty vague cause it's, it's the investing and personal finance Facebook group and it's all for people that are interested in money topics. And so yeah, we do find a lot of connection and things in there, but it's hard because, you know, it runs the gambit of people's personal financial situations. I mean, you have to have so many people and so many diverse perspectives that even in a Facebook group type setting, it's hard to foster connections. And then the other challenge with money topics is that there's a lot of people that prey on other people, insurance salesman or, you know, unscrupulous financial planner. And so sometimes when people do open up, I mean, they just get unsolicited, you know, direct messages and, and things. And you know, so it's, it's very challenging to, you know, make sure people connect, but you know, you have to remember you're online and people try to take advantage of that as well. I hadn't thought of that. That's so true. And then it's just the main maintaining it, like, and making sure as the owner of the group that you like, see if there's any inappropriate comments and stuff like that. Right. Yes. So, I mean, we're very vigilant. We're very vigilant on it.  We do. We have a good moderator team and, you know, we have all the Facebook alerts set up. So when people comment certain things it flags right away, but where they get around it is through those direct messages. So I would say like every two weeks we have to remind our group, if you get an unsolicited direct message, please let the moderator team know so we can take action and remove it. And I've been known to publicly shame some of these unscrupulous insurance salesman. I'll reach out to their companies and organizations and say Hey, you need to follow up with this individual.... Who's violating your company, social media policy, and you need to follow up because it drives me nuts. Especially I rag on insurance people a lot, but it really usually is insurance salesmen, not financial planners. And they do not have the best interests of you at heart. They are trying to sell you on a product that you probably don't need. And it drives me nuts. Yeah. Well, I have a friend that is in that industry and she said that, and this isn't true for all., but she said that the management was still kind of pushing the salespeople as if it weren't like COVID and like just like pushing them so hard. And so you sometimes kind of wonder like how much of is coming from the leadership and doing the right thing for the customer and having the salespeople be the, the interacting face and yeah, it can, it can be so easy online and can be kind of dangerous to people if they're in a vulnerable situation as to what's real, what's not real, what should I pay attention to?  Yeah, my rule of thumb though, is, you know, no one in this world is going to care more about your money than you. So always go into every conversation with that in mind, you know, anyone that's out there trying to help you probably isn't going to care as much as you do because they have no reason to.  Yes!  And start young and they're always there. Time is on your side when you're younger, I can attest to that. So what, what are some of the most important things you think that the younger generations need to know about personal finance? I think the biggest thing for me is that it starts with getting organized and this might sound counterintuitive to like a personal finance conversation. But honestly, there's just so many moving parts today to everyone's money. Right? You have different incomes, you got side hustle, income, your job income, you have multiple accounts, probably got a bank account, a savings account. You got maybe a 401k. Maybe you have an IRA. And then like you have a bunch of expenses. You might have a credit card or a debit card and you're charging. So it starts with just getting organized with your money. And the other thing that's hard about this is everyone's different. So like I'm an app guy, right? So I like to have my finances on an app on my phone. And that's where I'm most comfortable, but I'm not everybody. Some people really like Excel spreadsheets. Other people really like planners and pen and paper and writing stuff down on like a paper calendar. So the real thing is, is find whatever style works for you and get organized with your money because you can't make an informed decision about what to do. If you don't know where everything is, what's coming in, what's going out. Like, should you budget better? I don't know. Are you organized? Should you try to get a side hustle? Like, I don't know. Do you need to earn more money? Like if you're not organized, you can't make the next financial decision. Hm. Good point. Yeah. And just not putting it off, like, there are different types, like you said, it's individual and there's some different types of people and some people avoid, some people worry, some people don't, you know, they're so generous. They give, give all their money away to other people like theirs. Yes, totally. And if you put, if you don't know what's happening, like you can't even make the decision. And I, and I will tell you that in 10 years of working with people, helping people, talking to people that 99% of people that are struggling, it all goes back to this organization. And well, if I ask I'm like, well, like what's your budget look like I don't have one. Or, or like, what's the shortfall? Like, are you short a hundred bucks a month in your monthly expenses? Like where do you, what, what is it? And they couldn't tell me how much debt do you have? I don't know. When are you going to pay off that debt? I don't know. Um, you'd just be, it always starts with knowledge. Like if you get organized, you know, where everything is, then you can decide like maybe, maybe all you need to do is cut $50 off your monthly expenses and you will be in the black and you'll be rocking and rolling, and you can do that easily, but maybe there's a bigger gap here. Maybe it's a $500 gap. Maybe you need to look at getting a second job or a side hustle or asking for a raise at work. But like, we can't even figure that out if you don't have it all laid out and organized and know what's going on. Yes. So knowledge is power and reality as well. Like when you get organized in whatever way that is, like you said, it's a variety of different ways to get organized, but then you have it in front of you. And, you know, you have that knowledge which has power to move forward and then take steps that, you know, really help, help get to the next, next level and security financial stuff. Exactly. And that's the thing is, you know, personal finance is personal. Right. And so I can't tell you, I can't just say it's a blanket, one size fits, all thing. Like it definitely is a personal conversation And accountability. Would you say that, like your services kind of help people with any accountability at all? Or do you not really track that? Yes, we don't really track it because it's hard. I don't also want to get in the business of being the data collector. Um, you know, it is personal, right. And there's also a lot of laws and regulations and rules and other things around all that kind of stuff. Um, but really it's about, you know, getting organized, but then we can take the next steps and I love being there to guide out. Like, let's, let's talk about budgeting and let's talk about earning more. I'm a big believer of the earn more mindset, like, uh, you know, yeah. There's probably some fat, we can all cut from our budgets, but like, is there a way you can go out and side hustle and earn a little bit extra and then live a lifestyle you'd like to live more of instead of like really cutting down to nothing. I love that. That's huge right now, like on, on tiktok, do you, have you ever gone on ticktock ? I'm a fan of tiktok. We were really doubling down on tiktok and I follow a lot of the financial influencers and others and, I'm all about, I'm all about tictok! Speaker 1: (16:19)All right. Let's talk tick tack for a little bit then, because I actually have not touched on this yet in our series. And so this would be a great start since you're a fan. So how did you get on, when did you get on and kind of what, what is, what are you finding as far as like what people like? So, I mean, I've been, I've been on the platform since last fall, so probably about nine months now, but we didn't start creating content until earlier this year. I really just like consumed. I just consumed a lot of content seeing what was working, what's not working and I'm still figuring out I'm not by an expert by any means. But the one thing I love about tiktok is that even if you don't have a huge following on tiktok, your posts have a very good chance of going viral. If you're following trends and talking about interesting things and, or just being interesting. And so a lot of people think tic talk is like about dancing to music and, you know, yeah, that's a good chunk of it, maybe 50%, but I would say the other 50% is, you know, just people talking, being interesting, being funny, being entertaining in some way, shape or form. And, and for us on talking about money on Tech-Talk, it's the same concept. It's like, how do we make something short, sweet, interesting, and entertaining in a, you know, 15 to 60 second video. And so, you know, we try to use some of the music sometimes, or some of the trending themes, because some of them are kind of like jokes effectively, but you have to kind of know what's going on, on tiktok to follow the joke and you integrate your own concepts into it. And so I find it to be a lot of fun and you can go down a rabbit hole of watching tiktok videos for like an hour. And you're like, Oh my God, where'd my afternoon go?! For sure!  I've heard people say that they've gone even longer, like three, four hours. Yeah. And then sometimes like it just this morning, as a matter of fact, it was early and I love Italians. And, there's a Italian guy and his mother and they are so cute and funny and I'd realize, Oh, I haven't been on tiktok for a few days. Maybe I missed some of his, their videos. And so you can click on just like with Instagram y'all if you're not on tiktok yet is you can click on their bio, like ontheir name or whatever it shows their channel. And then you can go and see all of their posts just like Instagram. So I consumed like six or seven of their videos that I had missed,.... which, ticktock for business as something that's real, you can use hashtags, you can, like Robert was saying, do things that are trending, make it entertaining, also educational. So it's to attract the attention of, like Robert said earlier, where people are. so that's cool. And, and I think a lot of people have this misconception that tiktok is all teenagers. And, you know, there is a lot of teenagers on there, but you know, your content and your, whatever you are will attract your audience because there are over 60, there are a lot there's I think a parent's over 30 hashtag. Like there are a lot of adults on the platform as well. And there are so many different industries and niches, and here's a great example. Um, we're thinking about redoing our backyard and it's kind of like a dream board wishlist kind of thing right now. Right? Well, I'm scrolling on TechTalk and I found a local landscape designer on tiktok. I loved his work. I reached out to him and he's going to come out and we're going to talk about things. And so like, I don't know, result in any business, but when you're thinking about it for your business, whatever your business is, there is things on there that, I mean, your business should be on tick talk. If you want to connect with people that are engaged in that audience. And it's a huge audience. I mean, I don't know, you can kind of talk about all kinds of things. I see woodworking, I see a lot of construction. We're doing remodeling stuff. So maybe that's my feed right now. Right. But I see a lot of those kinds of trades showing up in my tiktok feed. It had, the algorithm definitely picks up and how you went about it is exactly what is recommended and what we recommend to get on the platform first and just start discovering what other people are posting and what people are doing, and kind of just get familiar with it. And, you know, if you start now, if, if you can make it relevant to your business and make it relevant to your customer is that, you know, it's going to benefit you a year or two years from now. And you can also share the videos on other platforms so you can save the videos and then post them in, on another platform. Do you ever do that, Robert? Oh, yeah. And I mean, that's the thing is like, if you're already kind of doing short format things, if you're on YouTube or Instagram using Instagram stories, like, I mean, it's like a natural repurpose bit and, uh, you know, you might as well be there for minimal extra effort, but, uh, you know, when you look at the growth of things, you know, tick talk is definitely on the growing end and you know, some of these other platforms are not growing as much anymore. And so, you know, it's get there early claim, your stake, be one of the early influencers in your space. And, you know, maybe it fails, but you will have learned something because I think video, however, its purpose is going to be around forever. So Absolutely. Yeah, I think that will happen was when stories came out, people got comfortable and then started really liking the short form. And, you know, you're just sitting, waiting for an appointment. So, you know, for them to call you from the lobby or whatever, and you can just real quickly go online, be entertained, discover something, learn something, whatever it is. And then, you know, we got used to that. And then now that tiktok's you can post a 15 second video or, or a 60 second video on tiktok. And,so yeah, we're at, and I love your enthusiasm about it, Robert. So before we wrap here, what other platforms are working well for you? Like you mentioned YouTube - what is your favorite, would you say? Or is it tiktok? Well, it's hard. I don't know, like my personal favorite social media platform right now is Reddit. I would say Reddit is my home base of not necessarily for my business, but as a personal social media consumer, I I'm a Redditer and I love it.  I think every business should be on Reddit. You should own your own subreddit. And I think you need to engage where your audience is. So the one thing about Reddit, right, is it's, it's, it's made up of subreddits, which are kind of akin to Facebook groups, right. Um, and there's groups on every single topic under the sun. And it's, I want to say that Reddit is, I am betting that within the next 12 to 18 months, Reddit is going to surpass Facebook. I think it's already like the now it's like, I think it's tied or just beat Instagram in terms of monthly visitors per month, uh, in terms of traffic. And so it's just, it's just continuing to grow. Whereas some of the other platforms are declining, but, uh, there's, your, your audience is on Reddit. You can subscribe to subreddits and you can become, you know, a voice on there and your things. And I just think it's, it's got such a better user interface. It provides a better curated content than it does for like Facebook and other things. So I am a huge Redditor. That is so interesting. I I've not heard anyone else say that. So I think that is just awesome. And it reminded me when you were saying that this weekend I Googled something and the answer was on Reddit. Yup. And that Reddit comes up in all the search results. And I would say that, you know, and granted it is my primary social media platform. But if you look at my social media referrals to my website read, it's usually fourth. I'm right there. You got the, you got Facebook, you got Pinterest, you got Twitter. And then read it, usually beats all the other ones. Um, and it's usually, it's very quality traffic because I'm talking about things that are related to what I'm doing. Right. And so it just all works out. Nice, great information. You, you seem so savvy. I love it. I'm so happy that you joined us today and I'm sure you inspired a lot of people. where can people find you, your website, social media, wherever you want to send people? Yeah, definitely. So our website is the college investor.com. If you like to listen to podcasts, we have the college investor audio show, and then we're on pretty much every social platform out there at the college investor. So whatever is your favorite, maybe you're not a Redditor like I am, but we're out there on pretty much everybody's social media platform. Yay. Awesome. Thank you so much, Robert. This was a thrill and I really appreciate your time and, hope you have a great rest of your week.

Investor Connect is proud to introduce a brand new Podcast series: Investor Perspectives. Over the next few weeks, we continue our discussion on the Impact of the COVID-19 Economy on Startup Funding with experienced investors from the TEN Capital network. In today’s installment, we’re focusing on their preparation for the market after the lockdown, what new investment thesis the COVID-19 pandemic will bring, and what startup sectors will be diminished or eliminated by COVID-19. Today’s episode features insights from:  Ash Kaluarachchi of StartEd & EdTech Week  0:45Charles Sidman of ECS Capital Partners 5:15Brett Noyes of Unbank Ventures 12:44Daniel Ibri of Mindset Ventures 14:44Lydia Kinkade of iiM 21:53Nathan McDonald of Keiretsu Forum/Keiretsu Capital 26:19 We hope you enjoy listening to this informative new series. _____________________________________________________________________________________________ For more episodes from Investor Connect, please visit the site at: Check out our other podcasts here: For Investors check out: For Startups check out: For eGuides check out: For upcoming Events, check out For Feedback please contact info@tencapital.group

Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon, fuel your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're gonna find this book on Kindle, Amazon and as always on my website, samknickerbocker.comWelcome back to fuel your legacy. And today we have another incredible guest I love bringing on people from all different walks of life, people who have accomplished different things and are really focused On, on different aspects, they're bringing their light their love to the world in different ways fulfilling and sharing with other people. Billy Bross is someone you're gonna want to go follow him on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, these places, but he, he loves just helping online education companies and course creators break through the noise and fill their programs with committed high quality content and students students, right so part of its getting the students in part it's making sure their contents ready for that. He left a really great career honestly in renewable energy industry to go full time into his side hustle, his heart, his hobbies and ultimately his passion. So that's what I love about the people that I'm bringing on is that they've made that transition, and they're able to give us a light and knowledge as far as how we can make that transition in our own mind. He also runs a home and online home beer brewing school, so if you've ever wondered how to make Your own bruise and go check him out, he's awesome. Okay, so with that, I'm going to turn the time over to him, but I want him to be able to share his story and why he made the transition, how he made it, and how did he know when it was the right time to take that leap, quit his promising career and jump in full time to what he loves doing. So. Billy, thank you for being on here. I'm excited to hear your thoughts and and what we can do to become are following your footsteps. Awesome. Hey, thanks for having me, Samuel. And yeah, if anyone needs a good beer brewing recipe, then I'm your guy hit me up. Are you a craft beer fan?I actually don't drink alcohol at all. But I have family members who do and I know a lot of people who do.It wasn't a we'll talk about the business. It was a lot of fun, although it wasn't the healthiest business to run.Yeah, so thanks for having me again. And yeah, so you know, I I'm not the typical entrepreneur Am I very much like school, and a lot of entrepreneurs you hear dropped out of high school, or they kind of bash college and say, just get out there and start selling stuff and growing businesses. I actually liked learning and that's a theme that you're gonna hear from me. I love education. I'm very curious. I've always loved learning new topics. I remember in fifth grade, I was really into reading Popular Science Magazine. I would only read two parts, I would read the very front and the very back. And the front, they always had the section called what's new, and it's about all the cool new typical technology fields. And then in the back, it was always a classified section. And they're always like these really like kind of interesting, quirky ads. And I was I was like, wow, that's, that's kind of cool. You can build a helicopter, and then you can fly around. You can like buy a DIY kit on how to do that. That's really interesting. So I've always been interested in both science and art. So in business and creating new ventures, so I went through, went through all of high school, went through college, and then I went to grad school and got my MBA. So I took the very traditional path. But when I got that first job, which was a great career, I'll go into that. When I sat down the very first day at that desk after that, my boss remember, he gave me a tour of the office and everything and then finally sat me down and I was like, Okay, now this is assuming I don't do anything. And I just say the past, this is my life. I'm gonna be at this desk an awful lot. And I was excited to be there. But at the same time, I said to myself, this ain't gonna last too long. And so it wasn't too long after that, that I started on the side because I had this free time during nights and weekends, I started a beer brewing blog. So got really into brewing craft beer in college, really geeked out on like I do with a lot of things and decided to start writing about it and posting homebrewing tips and videos and things like that. So eventually, that was what allowed me to this was six years later jumpship when I was finally ready to leave that job and that career, I had this side hustle going, as you mentioned, and that was what enabled me to really forge my own path.That's awesome. So I'm curious. Because I mean, I know you say you're a proponent of education, and, and schooling, where would you I mean, do you feel like there's a line between schooling and education?Is there well, you can certainly have education without depends on what type of schooling you're talking about. And I think there certainly is a place for traditional education. But I think the whole I know the whole industry is getting disrupted right now. And I and I work with because I I work with online educators now online experts, teachers, teacher entrepreneurs, who are working in these areas. Well, for example, I have one on my school I'm working with and they teach artists. So digital artists, mainly people who do concept art for movies and video games. And traditionally, they would have to go to a university to get these skills and pay $100,000. And then they're not guaranteed anything afterwards, not guaranteed income or jobs. And now you have this online school, who I'm helping, and they help these artists they do it through $500,000. Sometimes a little bit higher price courses are still premium price for online but much cheaper than $100,000 for a traditional University. And the best part is these course creators are practitioners in their field. So they're in the trenches, they're, they're working in this area, and so they can tell their students how to succeed not just in their craft, but in the business side of their craft, which is so important. And now they're even starting to pass on jobs to their students as well. So, you know, there's certain there's certainly, there are places for traditional education. I mean, you wanna become a lawyer, you want to become a doctor certain fields like that engineering, but for, for some of these other fields, that's not necessarily the best path.And I think I think, for my cuz of how you caviar, like oh, I'm not one of those entrepreneurs that bags on it. I think that most for my experience, I all I do pretty much is an interview entrepreneurs of some sort CEOs, people who are successful in business or on the other side, mother's father, and just like, I guess I do interview a wide range of people. But I think most of the entrepreneurs that I interview there, although I would consider myself in this category, I bagged on traditional education, to a degree, but only to the extent of, I think that you could go get the same or better education from an online course. With somebody who is still practicing in the industry, and has some real life experience over going to a college, where that may or may not be the case, as far as crack practicing, and as you said, you pay now you walk away with $100,000 either spent money or debt with no guarantee of a job. And so, I think that's where, at least from my experience of talking to people, that's where most of the if you want to call it animosity comes from in that conversation. It's not that they think that to become a doctor, you shouldn't go have somebody practice and teach you that. But even even with that, being a doctor, being a lawyer, I hope not true, but I would say even with that, there's a lot of people who have gone through all of that education, formal education to get their degrees and in the process, they found that they actually are better able to serve clients or patients by you. Using methods that aren't necessarily taught in school, but to be able to use those methods, they have to have the credentials. And then they end up going off and doing functional medicine, which they could have done. They just want to have the licenses to do so without the formal education. So it's an interesting balance. I think education is everywhere. I don't think you should go fail.I shouldn't. How do I say that?I think failure is essential. Okay. I think we should be willing to fail, but fail different than the people in the past. Like if you're going through and you're making all the same mistakes that everybody else made. You didn't learn anything. Yeah, you know, guys like my point you need to go and create your own.Like, take and this is what this is one good thing that I think I gained from public like from my college years that I don't, I don't Where I would have got this otherwise, sure there's places, but how to conduct effective research is a very, like, if there's nothing else you learn. That's a pretty dang good thing to learn. So you can actually read medical journals and say, Okay, what exactly like how are these samples done? What's it? How are they using statistics? How are they doctoring statistics, not just medically, but business wise, if you're walking into a business and they lie, whereas $4 million company and you're like, Okay, and you have $10,000 extra every month, because your operating costs are like you're barely surviving doesn't matter that you're making $4 million of revenue, if 3,000,900 you know, whatever, if it's all going out in expenses. You're, you're struggling, right, one bad month and you guys full, that's different than somebody who's netting $4 million every year, you know, so, being able to read, statistics read and be able to research stuff i think is important. In in that so something I feel like I'd be Effective from there when you're helping somebody build effective content. What does that look like?Well, the important thing is to always start with the audience. So a lot of this is a trap that a lot of and I fell into this trap, too, that a lot of experts and people are just subject matter experts, people who know a lot about their topic. They become obsessed with the topic, and obsessed with the content. But it's that whole set hole, if you build it, they will come thing not being true. When it comes to selling education online. A lot of people think it is though. So you want to start you want to find products and content for your audience, not customers or an audience for your content. And there's a big difference there. So the most important thing is to focus on what is the problem to be solved, or what is the thing that they want, and then try to in as few steps as possible. That's a big mistake, too. You don't want to over people are overwhelmed with information. You don't want to just dump a bunch of insight PDFs on their lap. So you want to get them from really our noun to that endpoint and as a efficient manner as possible.I agree. And so with that, just because you're you have helped over 500 companies accomplish this. How do you address it? I guess if it's online, when you're doing online courses, how what percentage of these online courses have an active teacher, somebody who's involves teaching in it, and how much what percentage is just recorded content, like an online course is recorded, and they're gonna buy it and pay whatever and it was made once intellectual property and they resell it multiple times without updating? Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. So so it's shifted over the years. So it's very different than how it was when I first got started in 2009 2010, where it was a lot more self paced, more on demand more of a separation between the teacher and the students. And now what we're seeing is The model that we like that we see working in that we teach is more so that other end of the spectrum, or more closely resembles a true college class or college semester, where you're taking people in, you're taking them through as a group, we often call it call it a cohort, kind of nerdy term, as we call it. And, and it can be 100% live teaching, it can be pre recorded, plus maybe some office hours or some support calls. But usually, there is some, I think, going forward, the way of the future is there's got to be some kind of support some kind of live interaction, because if not, I mean, the, the, the numbers right there. I mean, the lesson is right there in the data, and that only one to 3% of people actually complete online courses as just as terrible. It's terrible all the way around. It's terrible for the students. It's terrible for the teachers as well, any entrepreneurs because, you know, most of a business's revenue should be coming from repeat customers. Because the most expensive thing you can do Doing a business's get a new customer. So if they're not if they're failing at that initial product, initial product is not working for them. What are the chances that they come back for more?I agree. Have you add sure you have in this space heard of lightspeed, VT said again? Have you heard of lightspeed vt it rings a bell I'm not too familiar with it though. Brad Lea is the creator CEO of the of the service, I would highly recommend looking it up his his service what I like about his service, and this is not necessarily a plug for him, but why not? You're listening. You want to create an online course, why not plug for guy he's awesome. Um, but it's a very interactive so unlike a typical video course where it's like, you use watch it hope they watch the help they got out of it inside of the video. There's a lot of interactive things, you can click on. And it's like building a sales funnel. But in video course form, so like, I could be having this conversation and then say and what's what level was your income? I'm, I'm fine. And so that makes sense, right? What level is your income 50,000, whatever. So they're gonna have three options they pop up after me and based on which button they push, then they're going to hear different content from me based on where their level of knowledge is at, or it's going to relocate them back to where they need to hear, hear what I just said. So they can so we can contest comprehension contest, make sure that the people are getting what they need because you may have somebody who's taking an elective class or taking a course just because like they need the basics but they already understand half of the what the content and most courses and make you go through the same like the same path. And so they're they're only getting, like everybody's getting the same cookie cutter information rather than saying okay, I want to buy this course on so Media, for lack of a better word, right? There's people who don't even know that on social media, you should have all of your profile pictures be the same across social media, you should have all of your banner pictures be basically identical, you should have all of your your descriptions about who you are like there's, that's like step one, before you get started on marketing before we get started I that have uniformity, like that's important. So that person, maybe that's where they're at? Well, the other person may already have all that done already have been paying for ads for a while, but just needs to know how to write more effective copy, right. And so for that person, they can go through and get the first half of the course done, still get credit for whatever, but they get the first half of the course done super fast, because they have advanced through that they already know it. And then they can move on to the part that they actually want to do faster versus having a course where they're bored for the first half of the semester lose interest before they actually get the content that they wanted and then they don't complete it. So anyways, it's a personalized learning paths. No, those are excellent. Yeah, and it's a, it's one of the cool things you can do with online education technology. And it's a great way to increase results. So I love that. I'll check that out.Yeah, he's said he would be actually a good. He's super, super cool. If you reach out to him on Instagram. He's in. He's in Vegas. And he doesn't do interviews unless you come to his office. So that's a thing there, but he would be a great person, I think, for you to be on his podcast.Cool. Yeah. That was my mom go to Vegas. Yeah.Yeah, no, it's uh, and he's super chill. And he also I shouldn't say loves beer, but he drinks beer. So you'd have to be able to contact or like, my kind of guy.Yeah. Um, anyways, so So let's talk about this. When did you I mean, you got out of your working your corporate gig. You've got out of beer, I mean, creation, I guess craft beer education. So was that really That the transition from like, how did you transition from your corporate job to teaching people how to create educational, like content?Yeah, good question. Yeah. So so I left the full time job in the, in the renewable energy industry to run this beer website. And so fortunately, you know, again, I'm not the traditional entrepreneur, a lot of entrepreneurs were just like, jumped ship, I wanted to have money in my savings account, I want to have a decent amount of consistent income coming from that website. So I got to that point where I felt really confident that I could cut the cord with a full time job and have a viable business. And unfortunately, that happened, but it was really more of a springboard that website into where I am now. My intention really wasn't to be the beer guy my whole life. That was just a cool project that I was working on and I want to be experienced doing it and of course, wanting to use it to leave my job. But I really missed working with with other things. People on teams and collaborators, really smart people like I was doing. I didn't, I didn't have that anymore when I was running the beer website. So So I started joining these online forums and communities and meeting other people like myself in all different niches. And even though a lot of them were beyond me, they still I can still notice things in their business gaps, especially in their marketing, where I would say, hey, if you just move this thing over here, or just do this or get this page up, it could really explode your growth. And so more and more of them start to reach out and I started doing some consulting on the side. And that eventually became my main passion, helping people like myself who had the subject matter expertise, but didn't have the the business expertise or the marketing expertise to get it out there. And because I had learned that and I had this traditional business background, that combination of skills, put me in a good position to help them grow their business, and that's what led me to where I am today. So I sold the the beer website actually a few years ago. So that's now in someone else's hands. But but he's doing a good job with it. We're still in communication.Good hopefully hopefully turned to pretty penny that Scott. That's awesome building websites, I didn't know how like that I don't have anything that gets a ton of traffic. But you can just like go by URLs and or domain names. And if you put something on there and get a little bit of traffic and like build up the name on Google like you can that's a way that's a form of investing right there it's kind of interesting business model but it's it's cool to see like how much what I paid for my my domains and then how much they've increased in value since I've put content on their websites and add things pushed to them create a connection. So it's a cool it's a cool thing to see. So I'm curious. I liked the way you said this, I guess is you had a bigger goal and so many people they think, Oh, I'm I'm in this business. For me. I work in finance, right? My objective is not it is my objective. is financial but I'm in finance because of the the bigger goal, right? The bigger goal for me being in finance is to help people with well, as they understand how money works, then they it decreases statistically decreases causes of depression, anxiety, suicide, domestic violence, malnutrition. And those instances decrease when there's higher income, or at least understanding how money works in a home. And so although I work in finance, that's not my main gig, my main gig is what it produces. At the end. I think that's important for people to understand, especially when they're trying to identify well, do I jump ship? Do I go do my own thing? Or what is it exactly that you're jumping ship from and to? I think that's a huge, huge, huge question to be answered. Before you quit your day job before you go anywhere. What exactly are you jumping to? And as Billy said he wasn't jumping to the beer company to become the beer guy. That wasn't as objective. He saw that as a project as a current way of expressing himself in, in other forms of creation. And I think that's important because so many people will get fixated on a certain thing. And they'll say, Well, I don't know anything. I only know how to be a mom, I only know how to garden. I only know how to create videos, I only know how to make beer, right? And so they don't see their value outside of the task that they're doing. And this holds people back. So many people back even in their corporate jobs, because they think I'm only good for what I'm being paid for. Instead of recognizing that the value that they're adding to that company is so much more than the tasks that they're fulfilling. And if they were just to go market, just the value that they're adding, personally, they could probably increase your income, even if they didn't want to change what they're doing. They could take that out of a corporate And go perform those tasks by themselves and be able to create the same or more income more regularly and be in more control of their income. So that's a huge thing. And then understanding that this happens. I would say this happened to me as well, especially with this podcast. Like just kind of the the germination of this podcast is I was doing Facebook videos about different topics. Facebook Lives, I did them every day for I think a month did a month of Facebook lies every day. And what I found was people were reaching out to me and saying, Man, I would love to listen to all of your content, but I can't leave Facebook on all the time. You should turn it into a podcast. I was like, Oh, I never think about that. But I'll turn into a podcast then. And so so so many times, think about what are you complimented on the most? What What do people compliment you on? What do you think? What do people say? And if I Just think like that. Or if I could just do that, what is the most common thing that people say about you in that context? And then reach out to Billy and say, Hey, Billy, how do I turn this into a course? Yeah, I turn this into an online course. Because clearly if there's enough people who recognize my gift, even though I don't recognize my guests, how do I make this gift? able to reach more people? And how do I monetize it? Right? How many times does that happen to you, where you have somebody who comes to you who wants to create a course isn't quite sure exactly how to do it. They know their audience, they know what they what they're trying to teach, but they just have no idea how to monetize it, how to make it effective for their end consumer.Oh, it happens all the time. Yeah, it happens all the time. And and I'll tell you what I tell them because the wrong way to go about it is to go disappear into your basement for nine months and go record some amazing video course. It's been a ton of fun. On software and lighting and microphones and all that stuff, editing, distribution, and just to find out that no one really wants the topic, no one really wants what's being offered. So, this is good news. This is good news because you don't need to put so much pressure on yourself to have something completely polished and dialed in. The way to do it, especially now going going forward is to take that audience first approach, like I talked about, start to build a following get in the trenches with your audience, hop on the phone with them even I've talked to dozens of my customers and email subscribers when I was running that beer brewing website, not selling anything, just hopping on the phone and just asking questions. And look, I was part of my market. I was brewing up a storm. So I but I still my mind was blown all the time. And I was surprised by the things that people would say and what their problems were. So don't fall into that curse of knowledge. You know, where you think that you know it all. The market will tell you and you'll often be surprised. And then just get something out there. Just get something out there. Take an iterative approach. And this is really my approach to to life, you know, and the value that I provide. And like what you were asking earlier. I mean, I see myself in a really strong point of leverage for two reasons. One is I think personal growth is the most important thing in the world. And one of the ways that we can solve a lot of the problems that we have in the world, yes, there are a lot of problems with society and the economy and all that. But if everyone really focused on themselves, and focused on if I focused on making myself better tomorrow than I am today, and I did that consistently, every single day, if everyone did that, we'd be in a really, really good position. And one of the ways to do that is through education, through online learning online courses, and it doesn't matter what niche you're in. What tends to happen if a person is improving in one area, even if it's something sort of like insignificant by most standards, like brewing beer, people don't think that's entirely a life changing thing. But it is and I would see how my students would come in and they would fall in love with this hobby. And that passion would exist. from them, and it would spread to their family, their wife, their kids, they would all see it. And next thing you know, everything in the household is uplifted. Right. So that's one leverage point working directly with them. But I took a step back and said, Okay, let me work with the entrepreneurs and the teachers, the teacher entrepreneurs who serve them. And now we get into, so now I'm able to help them reach more people. So improve this collective personal growth going on throughout the world. And also, I'm a big believer in small businesses, they really are the engine of the economy. So that's I love working with entrepreneurs. Now, they're the innovators, they're the job providers are the ones paying a whole lot of our tax dollars. So that's what gives me a lot of fulfillment. I see myself really in a great place of leverage and aligns with my values. The main one being personal growth.Yeah. And I think that that's the key is identifying what isyour personal value and how are you aligning yourself with your personal value, I think once so I have a I have a my journal, a journal that I created. But it's called the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. And the focus is identifying who why why would it be important for you to actually exceed or succeed in life in general. And it's part of a grander process of identifying your identity. And as you said, your your values for me my core values are candor, integrity, and gratitude. Those are like more important than just about anything else. And when I really analyze who I am, without any fear of judgment for not saying God or saying family or whatever, without any fear of judgment of anybody else, what am I personally internally committed to more than anything else in my life, and it's those three those three values and so I built my business I built everything I do in my life down to my marriage, my children, my everything, based on those three values and all of these need to be present in everything I do. I'm not interested. And when you're looking at jumping ship or going something new again, Be aware of what you're leaving and what and where you're going. Because I'm sure I want you to tell me some failure stories of people who have done this what I'm about to describe, hopefully, some, if you don't, that's amazing, but I think you probably will, but people who they, they were doing this, I decided to create this course or education, out of desperation, because rather than running towards what they were passionate about, and running towards what they love doing, they were running away from what they didn't like doing. And that distinction is huge. just choosing to try it, try and create as, as you would say, try and create a product that you can sell just because you don't like what you're doing right now. Your current, your current work. That is not the way to move forward. It's not I think it has a short lifespan. You're not going to be a long lasting educator or innovator anything but if you are passionate about something and you're running towards what you like, you're gonna have different results. So tell me a story of where you've had Somebody who is running from something rather than towards something.Yeah,well, I can give you my own example. Sure, sure.Yeah. So when I, when I made that transition from running the beer site to doing consulting full time, I was doing some service provider work. So I wasn't just consulting, I was also helping people build and maintain their Facebook ad campaigns and the natural path. And so I eventually pulled back from that because the natural path if you start doing that is to grow an agency. You know, so you start to look at Okay, how can I get more clients? How can I do a better job with this and you're just gonna wind up in that agency playground. Turns out I didn't really didn't want to run an agency. It just, it doesn't align with what I enjoy doing. It's not me, much more of a strategist, much more of an architect. I don't want a big team or anything like that. It just didn't match up with the lifestyle that I wanted. And I always start with the lifestyle and reverse engineer that So I started to go down that path, but then quickly pulled back because I had that feeling like and yeah, I can deliver value here. But this isn't, this isn't my zone of genius. So a lot of my life has been like that testing different things, seeing how it feels. Sometimes you just have to write like, I didn't know what that that day to day was like, it looked good on paper, running an agency getting a lot of clients. But when I was actually in the trenches of it, I said, No, I don't feel so hot. Let me go back this other direction.Yeah, I think that's that's huge. Being able to dig, like to determine and decipher between that What are you running from something you write to something and making sure you're running to something that you love and that you're going to bring the light and Joy to the world not just from what you don't like because it's just barely I haven't seen it pan out very well for many people. And it's good that you were able to recognize that before you got too deep into something you hated and decided to. You never know happens honestly. So I'm curious when you did make the jump though. What was your? Did you Who are your biggest naysayers saying no, don't do that. Why give? Why are you giving up this great job? Tell us the story of your biggest naysayers and how you overcame them.I have been really fortunate in that I've always had a tremendous support system. I really can't think of one person I'm close to. I can't even think of one person who said, You're dumb. Don't do that. Don't leave that full time job. It's great. Everyone was just like a really great cheerleader. Just Hell yeah. Billy, go for it. So I've never had anyone say that, fortunately. But I have had haters, you know, running. You wouldn't believe that running a beer website. You get haters, like, I remember I was. I was, uh, I did some videos about a beer cocktail and some British one. And I guess they're very strict about how they make these beer, beer cocktails where you mix two beers together a beer and some other kind of a silly thing. But people will get on YouTube get really upset and passionate about pretty trivial things. So I'll get flamed in the comments if I made the recipe wrong or something And then and then I would have people just generally upset that I would sell information. A lot of people just see that as a big No, no. How could you possibly sell this, especially in a niche, like an enthusiast niche? You know, the beer market? People are a little bit touchy about that. So, so yeah, I certainly had my fair share of haters, but but no one no one saying, hey, you shouldn't be doing that as a career or a business fortunately.Right? So how so? How did you overcome that? Because there's people who, maybe they have support in their career, but when they see those comments online, when they see that the haters, they're like, Oh, no, am I doing something wrong? Maybe I should adjust my my approach my market like maybe, maybe I should change maybe I get doing whatever I'm doing. So how did you learn to just let that roll off of you or not give it any credence? Like how did you move past that and say, Look, I'm doing me you do you and you don't want to do it, whatever. If you want to post crappy things, that's fine, too. Whatever.Yeah. So a big Part of it was looking to mentors. So looking to people who either mentors I knew personally or mentors from a distance I just followed online, who were a few steps ahead of me, or many steps ahead of me and had way more haters than me and seeing them talk about it. I remember I think it was a roommate safety, if you know who he is heard of him? Yeah. And he had his own version of Have you seen mean tweets against what he's called Jimmy Fallon, one of those late nights? Yeah. President Obama will be on there reading all the mean tweets about him and he makes it funny. So Remi did something like that, I think was him and maybe James altucher. And they're reading all the tweets. It was like this funny, they're sitting around the fireplace drinking whiskey or something, and reading some of the hit the April comments on their YouTube videos. So I've Oh, I'm a big fan of humor. So I used humor to approach it and just kind of have to laugh at them. You know, it's silly, right? And I don't take it personally. And I realized that they only see they only see a sliver of me and my personality. Right, like they saw maybe just the first three minutes of that YouTube video and that's all they know about me. Right? So I have a lot of empathy.I think I love that. I think that and that's really the whole purpose of my book or one of the major purposes of my book is exactly that. How do you like gain perspective of what's really happening? So often in our world today, we get sucked into like, Oh, this is such a big deal on Facebook. It's like no, like, literally in two days, nobody's gonna remember this thread even happened. We've got it got to keep in perspective there, how much they know about you. It's not an attack on you. It's an attack on their perception of, of what's happening, which is entirely different than on you. So I love that what would you say your your secret? If you have like a specific habit, mindset or behavior that you have participated in regularly to build your legacy? What would you say that is and how could we adopt that into our lives?Yeah, so it's really I'm a big fan of positive habits. So having a strict morning routine. Having a strict nighttime routine? And then and then self reflection. Am I improving? Going back to what I said earlier? Am I a better person than I was yesterday? Am I smarter than I was yesterday? Am I more skilled in this area than I was yesterday? And if you just do that day in and day out, I forgot the exact numbers are. But I think if you if you improve 1% each day after 70 days, then you're twice as good as you were before. That's been the biggest thing for me again, personal growth.Yeah, no, I love that. It's awesome. So how could we support you if we wanted to get in touch with you? Let's say we have a course that we want to create. Or we'd like to maybe take part and see what see what courses you helped to create and just take part in some of those that you've already helped create for other people. Do you have a list of all the companies you've worked with? And so we'd go cruising back. Oh, yeah, he's helped dessert. I'd like that type, of course. And where do we get in touch with that and how do we get more involved with what you're doing?Yeah. So nice and simple, best ways to get around. My website Billy bras calm b i ll y VR OSS calm. And yeah, there's a bunch of case studies on there. And you can see a lot of the courses that I've worked with and a lot of the niches that I've worked in, you can hop on my email newsletter, I send out a almost daily email newsletter. I'm a huge fan of email marketing as a channel. I just think it's the most intimate, personal way to communicate but I do it very differently than how most people do it. So So yeah, that's that's a very popular.Okay, cool. So here's the here's the last two sections on my podcast are some of my favorite. So this this second last section is called legacy on rapid fire kind of like a game show. But there's, there's no right or wrong answers. But there's five questions. And we're looking for one word, one sentence answers. I may ask you to clarify any one answer at any given time.Fair enough. Let's do it.Awesome. So legacy on rapidfire number one, what do you believe is holding you back from reaching the new Next level of your legacy.Hmm.sorting the great opportunities from the good opportunities. That's the constant challenge.That is and what have you found to help you in that endeavor?There's actually I actually have a really tactical thing that I use. It's a formula that I've discovered by Brendon Burchard. And I can't remember the little complicated, but you essentially look at everything that goes into an opportunity, the resources, the time, the money, the sanity, that you need to invest into it, and see if the payoff. So the financial payoff, the doors that it opens and how it fits into your lifestyle, how those balance out, it's kind of like a scale. So it's not perfect, but it's a good framework to use to evaluate opportunities highly recommended. No, that's awesome. I agree that you have tohave some formula of determining how You spend your time and where you spend your time. And I talked about it from a perspective of, you've got to become the CEO of your own life. And that's the CEOs job to determine like, hey, which contracts we're getting in? How are we increasing the value to our shareholders, if it doesn't weigh in the favor of increasing the value to our shareholders, now worth my time, and, and being able to hold that standard to yourself and for others, it's a nice school concept. I love it. It'll be a book one day, but like that might be a course before it becomes a book. I'll see. So what do you think the hardest thing you've ever accomplished has been to this point,running a marathon?I haven't done that. So I will, that I would tend toseegoes to the head and then like 10 or 11 years old, and had no not no intention of running this half marathon. On, but my, we were all showing up. We all showed up to support my family and my older sister who had been training while she was warming up that day, she pulled a muscle or something so she couldn't run. And so she's like, Well, does anybody else want to and I was like, I have two or three other brothers who are running. So I, you know, like sketcher Skechers. The shoes had like a leather, almost like nice, classy leather. Skechers shoes. That's what I had on. And I was like, y'all run? Why not? So I ended up running this half marathon in Skechers shoes. I was like 10 or 11. I was like, That will never happen again. So I haven't ever thought to brave another half marathon and

What can shift anxiety, depression, overwhelm, or simply feeling “down” - into feeling good, or even great? What are the hidden obstacles that get in the way? When it comes to improving your inner world, there are some things that consistently work. And there are other things that might help, but that aren’t nearly as effective. With more than 40 years of experience, Dr. David Burns, author of Feeling Good, returns to the show to reveal how his new “TEAM” approach helps you feel good - no matter what’s happening in your world. With examples from how he’s treated severe depression, anxiety, and PTSD - you’ll get a sense of how to eradicate your negative thoughts - and any resistance that's getting in the way. David Burns’s new book, Feeling Great, will be released this coming September. If you want to listen to our first episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to apply his work in relationships (based on his book Feeling Good Together), here is a link to Episode 98: How to Stop Being a Victim - Feeling Good Together - with David Burns If you want to listen to our second episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to recognize and deal with cognitive distortions, here is a link to Episode 133: Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life - Cognitive Distortions with David Burns And, as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you.  Join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!  Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources:  Check out Dr. David Burns's website Read David’s classic books, Feeling Good or Ten Days To Self-Esteem Pre-Order David’s newest book: Feeling Great - The Revolutionary New Treatment for Depression and Anxiety FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide www.neilsattin.com/feelinggood3 Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with David Burns Visit neilsattin.com/support or text "SUPPORT" to 33444 to support the podcast. Every little bit helps! Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: David Burns: I had created - and we need to upgrade it a lot, an electronic version of my brief mood survey that patients can take at the start and end of every therapy session, plus rate the therapist: on empathy helpfulness, were there feelings that you were hiding, did you have trouble being honest? filling out the survey? And so we have before beginning and end of session, rating on relationship satisfaction, depression, anxiety, anger, happiness, suicidal urges - and although the tool needs to be improved a lot, they sent me the data from 9000 therapy sessions. David Burns: And so I've always loved statistical modeling and the kind of modeling, I do - Analysis of moment structures or structural equation modeling - requires big "Ns". And I've never had a database this big... It's kind of overwhelming like being a kid in a candy store. So I was able to... First off, just to replicate a lot of findings from 10-20 years ago, when I was working with smaller databases like maybe 500 patients from my clinic in Philadelphia, 100 and 70 patients from the Stanford in-patient unit which are relatively small. But I was able to replicate almost everything and the data is just the cleanest data set that I've ever seen and it's just full of correlational findings and potential causal findings as well. So I feel like we're seeing for the first time kind of like the anatomy of psychotherapy that's never been seen before. The veins, the arteries, the muscles, the tendons and how it works. So I can begin answering really, really basic questions, like, if you wanna have high patient satisfaction, what are the variables that cause that in the session, what do you need to attend to, or what goes into therapeutic empathy? I published an article that everyone has ignored actually in the top psychology journal about probably 20 years ago called intimacy and depression. Is there a causal connection? Because the interpersonal therapists, make a big deal about the idea that depression is caused by problems in intimate relationships. Maybe this should be our podcast. Maybe we could start broadcasting. And I never really bought it but it had never been tested. And it's hard to test because you have to do something called non-recursive modeling which is the most difficult topic in statistics where things are circularly correlated. Neil Sattin: Right, I think I heard in a recent podcast episode of yours. Testing - do thoughts cause feelings, or do the feelings cause thoughts? David Burns: Chicken or the egg... exactly, that was just a little study I did with my Standford Data it had about an n of 100 but the findings were clear cut, so I did something like that with a much larger database, maybe a few hundred where we had depression, and relationship satisfaction scores at the start of therapy. I didn't measure as intensely every session at the start and end. It was just once a session. But we had it at the intake and 12 weeks later. And intimacy and depression were correlated minus.4 at both time points, which was similar to what you see in the literature, using different scales everyone seems to come up with about that number. So high depression, low relationship satisfaction and high relationship satisfaction, low depression at both time points - and then changes in depression were associated with changes in relationship satisfaction. And so, people interpret this, like the cognitive therapists say. Oh, that's because when you're depressed, it causes an impairment in love relationships because a variety of reasons - you feel worthless, you feel un-lovable, and you're very sensitive to criticism, and you feel like I have a self that's no good. And then the interpersonal therapist says, "No, you know we need love, to feel happy" - But none of those people has ever bothered to check it out. People in our field in general, pretty much everything that's said is false, 'cause people just talk, they say things that they wanna believe and came up with it themselves, so they think it must be true. And so in my study, we found that there are NO causal links in either direction, that have any particular meaning. There are tiny little causal links that are marginally statistically significant, but the magnitude of the causal link is so tiny that you couldn't possibly improve depression by improving relationship satisfaction - even a great deal, and that itself, it's almost impossible. And in addition, you couldn't possibly improve a troubled marriage by improving the depression or even curing both partners of depression. I knew it already, because when my book 10 days to self-esteem came out. I did a bunch of studies all around - pilot studies. It's a self-help thing for depression, and I had about 40 pilot studies. This should be, in your podcast, I think. Neil Sattin: I'm recording right now. David Burns: Oh, you are recording - Okay that's great. And what we saw was that in all of these groups, people started with my book 10 days to self-esteem and they were in these groups - there were no therapists president. It was just a self-help thing I was trying to create. And all the groups, people had dramatic improvements in their depression but... but in none of the groups did relationship satisfaction improve. At the beginning they were depressed with miserable marriages, and then at the end of the group, they were euphoric with miserable marriages. It just proves that there's no connection between these domains. Well, I had a chance to try to confirm that now with 9000 therapy sessions where we've got relationship satisfaction or dissatisfaction is one variable, and depression or happiness. I measured happiness for the first time - as separate from depression. Happiness at the start and end of the session, depression at the start and end of the session. And the findings were exactly the same, and it was really thrilling. The correlation was similar, like -.3, which is a small correlation - 'cause the 3 times 3, is a 9, so there's only 9% overlap in depression and relationships, and relationship satisfaction or happiness and relationship satisfaction. I have to do that one. I could test that today. Does relationship satisfaction cause happiness or does happiness cause relationship satisfaction or both or either. After our call it'll take me a minute to answer that question. Neil Sattin: We can do a little footnote on this conversation with whatever you discover. David Burns: Right, but at any rate, it came out exactly the same - there are no meaningful causal relationships between them, and that's not a bad thing. Neil Sattin: Yeah, so what it leaves me wondering is, where are the major leverage points for what does cause either of those things? David Burns: Well, as I've said for years, all the causes of all psychological and interpersonal problems are totally unknown. And anyone who claims to know is just a con artist or a fool. It's just like before we knew the cause of polio there were thousands of theories and treatments for the last two or three thousand years - and everyone was sure that they knew - and it came out to be a virus and we got the Salk vaccine. We had the true answer. We can say with certainty that depression is triggered by negative thoughts, and that if you have a negative thought and believe it like "I'm no good" or "I'm a loser", then you're gonna be very unhappy. But what we don't know is why are some of us so prone to negative thinking and pessimism, and self-doubt, self-criticism. While others are maybe more outgoing and happy. And then there's a bell-shaped curve. Some of us, most of us are somewhere in between these extremes. That question we don't know the answer to, all we can say with certain... Is that all current theories are false, like the psychiatrists claim it's the chemical imbalance in the brain, and that's been... We proved that was false in 1975 at our laboratory, in Philadelphia in our depression research unit. We flooded the brains of depressed veterans with like 30, 50, 100 times boost in brain seratonin. And that's what the so-called chemical imbalance people fraudulently call seratonin the happy chemical. There's nothing in the literature that ever said it should have anything to do with mood. Somebody just made up the theory and then there was no change in the mood of the veterans, none whatsoever. And we published that in the top psychiatry journal and it was ignored for 25 years. Because the drug company people didn't wanna hear it. And recently, people are starting to quote it a lot. All these theories of causality. Nobody knows. You know, as Freud says, "Oh it's anger turned inwards, or something in childhood" and certain psycho-analytic type therapists, they believe these theories that have no research to confirm them. But the great news is we CAN help people tremendously with depression. My new book, I'll give a pump for it, "Feeling Great" - it should be able to be ordered on Amazon soon - it's coming out in September. We've got fantastic high speed techniques to cause depression to go away really fast. And that's all I care about. And then, why do people have relationship problems? My research indicates that blame is the major factor. The problem is not that your partner is to blame, the problem is that you're blaming them and not looking at your own role in the problem. And we've got ways if people want help with troubled relationships, which is generally not the case, we have tremendous techniques to help them. But anyway, that's just kind of quick - where I'm at. The TEAM-CBT that I have created, and it's now really out-performing cognitive therapy, at least in, in my hands, and those of a number of my colleagues. It emerged because of the research I was doing, a number of years ago when I was in practice. Why do some people get better fast, and others resist, or fail to improve? And I found out why that was- it has do with motivation and resistance. Something I scorned early in my career, thinking it was not important, that turned out to be incredibly important. And once we saw that we developed new high speed ways to boost motivation, and that has, and reduce resistance. The first time we meet with someone - and then that leads to amazingly rapid recovery. Neil Sattin: There are all sorts of thoughts that I'm having at this moment, that are interweaving with things that you've mentioned already in this conversation. So, I guess first... Well, I'm thinking about Emily Nagoski and her model for Human Sexuality, and what allows people to feel connected to who they are as a sexual being, and to their partner - and she talks about the dual control mechanism, which is basically what turns you on, and what turns you off, and being aware of those things. And so I'm hearing the parallel already in what you're offering in terms of what motivates you to change, and what resistances you have to change - your accelerator and your brakes. And I'm curious to know, for you, does willpower enter into the conversation at all? I've been trying to get what's his name, Roy, Baumeister on the show to talk about willpower. We've been in conversation for quite a while, but I'm wondering where you feel like willpower ends up as part of the equation? David Burns: I don't use the term willpower, but I created a term called willingness in the late 1980s when I was trying to find out why some people don't recover quickly when treated for depression. And over the years, I've come to see more of what this willingness is and what it isn't. I developed a scale. And essentially, how willing are you to do stuff to help yourself like, psychotherapy homework for example. And that was the only variable in the world literature that's ever been shown to have a causal effect on depression or changes in depression, and the causal effect is massive. And then you can think about that as resistance, or motivation, which would be the opposite. And that variable - I tested all kinds of things that people were saying cause people to get better, like therapist empathy. Everyone was thinking, that was it. Therapist Empathy is important but it doesn't have much of a causal effect on anything, surprisingly. But that variable was huge, and people doing homework had a huge causal effect on who got better. Neil Sattin: So the variable was their willingness or the variable was their taking action? Because someone could begrudgingly take action. David Burns: Yeah, yeah both. If you take action that's meaningful, to help him reduce your negative thoughts - the actual homework had effects and the motivation that the homework reflected also had a massive causal effect on changes. Recently I saw an article, somebody took this term willingness - I don't think they attributed it to me, they should have - but they developed a willingness scale for anxiety disorders and reported that's the first variable in the world literature that's been shown have causal effects on recovery from obsessive compulsive disorder - OCD. That are you willing to use exposure to confront your fears... Neil Sattin: So, willingness. So, that does intersect with the question of resistance and... So in your TEAM model, which is what you've added on and just to mention, for you listening, this conversation is, in some respects, giving you a brief synopsis of things that we went into a lot of depth into in our first two conversations together. So in our first conversation which was episode 98, we talked about your book "Feeling Good Together," and it was this question of how to help relationships using your model. We talked about that point that you just made a few moments ago that a lot of people actually don't want to change their relationship even though they might say they want to change their relationship. So we go into that question in a lot more depth in episode 98. And then in our last conversation, which was episode 133, we talked a lot about the ways that we work on our own feeling state. So the first conversation we had was more focused on relationships, then we went through all the cognitive distortions, and we talked briefly about your TEAM model, but let's just say what the TEAM stands for in this moment. Because that may be a good point for us to dive off into the other intersection that you brought up - the polio virus. And it's impossible to have a conversation right now. I think without talking about the ways that SARS-CoV-2 or covid 19 or the novel Coronavirus whatever we're gonna call it - that is impacting us. And I'm seeing it have a huge impact on so many people, including myself, people who have been resolutely positive and optimistic, and it's the way, the scale by which this seems to be affecting everyone in every walk of life - I feel like it would be great for us to bring our conversation back to that, and maybe we'll weave in, maybe we'll weave in all these things, like our resistance, and our blame, and we'll put it all a nice bow around it before we're done... David Burns: That sounds great! We're starting on my feeling good podcast series, Corona-casting and we've got two recorded and we're gonna be doing maybe one or at least one or two more. But essentially, when you're looking at the effects of the corona virus or both at intimacy relationship issuesm because we're compressed closer together, and there's more blow-ups and anger and tension being expressed. And so we've had a couple of those in my Tuesday training group at Stanford, where we sometimes do live work. It's free training for therapists in the Bay Area or from anywhere. If they come consistently, they can get unlimited training and unlimited personal therapy for free, which is a pretty good deal. And they have to come consistently, and do homework and use the brief mood survey to see how they're doing with their patients. But in the last two weeks, we've had two people very upset. Both therapists - the therapists are human - no different from anyone else - due to intense family conflicts that have erupted because of of the coronavirus. And then I've also been working on the internal mood issues - the panic, the depression, and how we use TEAM to help with those things too - again with one live, or a real example. But what team is: T is testing, E is empathy is, A is - we used to call it paradoxical agenda setting, but that was too confusing to people. So now we call it assessment of resistance, and then M is methods. Now testing means that we test every patient at the start and end of every therapy session. They do it in the waiting room. And can do it now on their cell phone so it doesn't waste any therapy time, but we find out exactly how depressed they are at the start of the session. How angry they are, how anxious they are, how happy they are, and what their relationship satisfaction is with the spouse or mother, whoever they want to be rating. And the reason we get those ratings at the start of the session is because therapists' ability to know how patients feel is close to zero. Research has proven this. And therapists don't know this. Therapists think they know how patients are feeling, but if you stop and test it, you find out the therapist's perceptions are way off base in most cases. In fact, it happened to me recently. I thought I was doing brilliantly. I'm not in practice, but I still treat a lot of people for free because I'm addicted to it. And on one of my Sunday hikes... I was working with a woman with certain issues, and I could just see that I was hitting it out of the park, and it was just an awesome hike... There were many hikers there, and afterwards, I was just congratulating myself for how outstanding I'd been in helping her, and then I discovered that she was enraged with me. I mean she was livid. I had totally totally missed the boat. And the listeners are maybe saying "Burnsie, he's probably insensitive. That wouldn't happen to me," but it happens to all therapists all the time, and most therapists don't know it. But if you get the assessments, the measurements, because then they rate you at the end on empathy, on helpfulness, on unexpressed anger, which was the case with my so-called patient, and a lot of other dimensions. And if you use the brief mood survey, it's like having an X-ray machine. You see the truth for the first time. It is the platform for all effective therapy to my way of thinking. E is empathy, you know all about empathy. And so at the start of the session, we empathize with the patient without trying to help. That was my mistake with this patient - I just thought I knew what her problem was and jumped in to cure her. I didn't bother to empathize or reduce her resistance - I violated my own rules. But fortunately, we had talked it over, and now we're closer than ever. The failure turned into something just the opposite. Neil Sattin: Right, and how often do we assume we know what's going on with another person? And just jump in, yeah, with offering something and it can be with the best intention. David Burns: That's one of the things here with the coronavirus - people are often trying to help somebody or tell them what to do. Most people just want someone to listen, they don't want someone to try to fix them, if they're panicky, or upset, or angry about the coronavirus - good listening skills is is all that 95% of people are really, really looking for. But then after we've empathized, and that takes about 30 minutes generally, in my experience. I treat most people just with one session, I don't have multiple sessions - I just treat people once and try to "cure" them or whatever that means in one two-hour session. One and done, is my approach. But if they need more, they can get more. But I rarely see people for more than one session. So you can empathize if you use what we call The Five Secrets of effective communication, which is I'm sure similar to approaches that you use. You can generally get an A or an A plus - you can form the deepest possible relationship with any person, you've never met in about 20 to 25 minutes. And then we do assessment of resistance. We say, "What do you want help with? Do you want help with anything?" And once they say what they want help with - could be a relationship problem, it could be depression, it could be anxiety - we do what we call, fractal psychotherapy. I don't know if we brought up that - fractal psychotherapy - a fractal is a little tiny formula that multiplies itself, and you can simulate almost anything in this way. This is like, how nature works. Neil Sattin: The macro level is mirrored in the tiniest piece. David Burns: Yeah, yeah, that's it. I can take a little tiny equation that a third grader could understand, and have it multiply on your computer, and it will go infinitely to the size of the universe. You can't see it all, you can only see a portion but you got it. It could create a gorgeous multi-color parrot, but the most beautiful little parrot, but if you zero in on the tiniest little piece of that, it will always be the same thing, that's just repeating itself over again. And that's how human suffering is. At any one moment in a relationship conflict, all the causes of the relationship conflict will be embedded. By one moment, I mean, what did the other person say to you, What did you say next? And if you look at that interaction, you'll see all the causes of that conflict between those two people. You don't need their history. You don't need their childhood - just one sentence from the other person, or two sentences - whatever - and exactly what you said next. That's a fractal for a relationship problem. And you have a fractal for depression. Tell me one moment you were depressed. What time of day was it, where were you, what were you feeling? Circle all of your emotions, how depressed were you? 90% okay, how anxious were you 80%? Okay, how guilty or ashamed were you? You get all of these emotions and 9 different dimensions, and you say, "What were you telling yourself, what were your negative thoughts?" And in that one moment when the person was depressed or anxious, you can find all the causes, and all the cures for all the upset they've ever had in their life. So we want the person to say, what's one moment - if you want help, give me one moment that you want help. Where were you? What time of day was it? What were you doing, who were you interacting with? Yeah, and then I generally say to the person, Okay, you were all upset yesterday at 9:30 or whatever and you were feeling 100% depressed and angry and upset and all these emotions, but what kind of help would you be looking for? And generally it comes down to... Well, I want my negative thoughts and feelings to go away. With someone recently... We had a woman 95% depressed and 95% anxious and 65% feeling inadequate, and I think frustrated at 100, and jittery 100 because of the coronavirus. She just woke up and she's trapped at home, and she's thinking that she should be more active, but she feels like procrastinating and then she's beating up on herself for not being productive. And... Neil Sattin: it sounds really familiar, actually. David Burns: Then we say, well if there's a magic button - if you press that magic button all your negative thoughts and feelings will instantly disappear, or the person you're upset with will instantly become your best friend in the whole world. With no effort, you gonna press that button? And everyone is "oh yeah, I'll press that button." And then we do what's called positive reframing - we bring their subconscious resistance to conscious awareness. This is the whole key to TEAM therapy to eliminate resistance before you try to help the person change, and that is what has opened the door to these phenomenal high-speed changes that I'm seeing. Now almost all the time when I work with people, they generally go from extreme or severe depression, not only to no depression - they go into a state of euphoria, mostly in a single two-hour session. People hearing this will get enraged, and they'll think I'm a con artist, and think it's impossible. If I'd heard this was possible 10 years ago I would have said it's a con also - don't believe that person. But I see it and I measure it, I have the data... Neil Sattin: And you're doing follow-up with those people as well? David Burns: I do from time to time... I'm building an app now, a feeling great app, that will allow us to do follow-up forever, on everybody. Doing follow-up on humans is pretty time consuming. In my clinical practice, I did relapse prevention training. I always do that before I'm done with somebody. Because we can guarantee that people will relapse. 100% of humans relapse pretty much every day. I define a relapse of one minute or more of feeling like crap. We're always relapsing all the time, but what I found is that if you do relapse prevention training, which takes about 20 or 25 minutes - relapse has not been a problem. And what I do is I just tell the person you are gonna relapse and here's what you're gonna be thinking when you relapsed, and here's how to talk back to those thoughts. And then we practice it with a role play and they record it. Then I say, if you ever do relapse, play this recording and if you're still stuck, give me a call because I offer unlimited lifetime guarantee of my work, and I'll give you tune-ups for free, if you're not satisfied. Neil Sattin: It's a pretty good deal. David Burns: Yeah, in my whole career, I've had over 40000 hours of therapy sessions - I've only had eight or nine patients who ever took me up on that. And in all of them, it was one session or two sessions and then they're on their way again. I only had one patient whoever relapsed and required intensive therapy again, to get out of her web. So I don't think the relapse thing - the people that I've been working with - I worked with a woman four or five years ago, who thought she was a bad mother, because her daughter had been shot in the face, and she thought it was her fault. Her daughter was 12 and wanted to go out and play after dinner, and she says it's a little late but I guess... Go ahead. She'd let her daughter go out every night for years, and then some neighborhood boys snuck up on her daughter and they had a high power pellet rifle - and aimed it at her face and pulled the trigger. And it hit her daughter's tooth, which exploded in her mouth, and she ran inside, sobbing, blood coming out everywhere. And she required multiple, multiple surgeries. And in addition, by the time I saw the woman she had been beating up on herself for nine years. "I've ruined my daughter's life." Her daughter was still struggling with PTSD and had failed therapy. So we did the TEAM therapy with her. I did it in a live workshop, and it took about an hour and a half, and her feelings went from extremely severe that she'd had every day for nine years. Just, "I shouldn't have let her go out and play. I'm a bad mother I've ruined her life, I can never allow myself to be happy when she's struggling. The people in the audience who are watching, they probably are judging me and thinking I'm a bad mother." And at the end, she was more than recovered - all her negative feelings went to zero, but she estimated one of them as minus a thousand and another one as minus a million an a score of zero to 100. She was in a state of euphoria. So I contacted her. I follow up with people from time to time just out of curiosity, and she sent me an email that she's still in this amazing joy, and her negative thoughts have never returned it. And the thing is that after that session, when she recovered, I have a recording of it - which I gave her and she listened to it with her daughter, who had no idea that her mother was struggling like this. And then her daughter recovered. And so it's infectious, when you're recover. But at any rate, relapse prevention training is easy to learn - it isn't easy to learn how to cause severe chronic feelings to disappear in a single session or a short period of time. It requires a lot of skill and training. But at any rate at the assessment of resistance, we bring the factors - see Anthony de Mello, maybe I said this in our last interview, he's a Jesuit mystic from the early 1900s I think, or maybe the mid-1900s but he said "We yearn for change, but cling to the familiar." And that's resistance... We say, "Oh I would really wanna lose some weight." But then when you... someone offers you a nice... like my wife made - we're cooped up here at home - but she made some beautiful peanut butter cookies. And they're so good with a fresh, crisp apple. So you say, "Well I'll lose weight next time." We have ambivalence about change. And so, we bring all the reasons to resist change to conscious awareness and patients haven't thought of it before. And what we've seen is, for the most part, at least with depression and anxiety, the reasons people resist have do with really beautiful things about them, and once they see that, they don't wanna press that magic button anymore, because then all these beautiful things will go down the drain. Like the woman who says I'm a bad mother. I hope we didn't talk about her last time. Neil Sattin: No, we haven't spoken about her yet. David Burns: I think - she's saying "I'm a bad mother" - I told her, Well, gosh, if you press that magic button all your negative thoughts and feelings will go away. But before we do that, let's say, What do they say about you that's positive and awesome? When she's telling herself I'm a bad mother what does that show about her that's positive and awesome? And what are some benefits to her? What does that actually show about her, that's beautiful and positive? Neil Sattin: Well, it would show that she really cares about being a good mother. David Burns: Yes, and that's what she came up with. And I said, "Is that important? Neil Sattin: Absolutely I would imagine so! David Burns: Is it powerful? So if you press that magic button all your sadness and concern about your daughter will disappear and you'll be euphoric, as happy as a lamb - is that what you want? "Oh no, no, I see what you mean." You see, and she's intensely anxious. What does her anxiety show about her that's positive and awesome? Neil Sattin: Well, it would again be... I'm just imagining that she's still really concerned for her daughter and wanting to ensure that she's doing whatever she can to keep her safe. David Burns: Absolutely, is that important? Neil Sattin: Definitely. David Burns: is it real? Neil Sattin: for sure. David Burns: Is it powerful? Neil Sattin: Absolutely. David Burns: Yeah. And so we went through all of her negative thoughts and feelings. And now you're concerned that the people in the audience here are judging - gonna judge you. What's awesome about that, what does that show about you that's beautiful? You're a bit afraid they're gonna think you're a bad mother. Neil Sattin: Right... so she wants to be a positive role model in the world, for motherhood. She also probably wants people to know that she takes responsibility for being a good mom - that there's something about if she were totally okay with it, then somehow she's absolving herself of all responsibility. David Burns: So does it show that she wants good close respectful relationships with the people in the audience? Neil Sattin: Definitely. David Burns: Is that a good thing? Neil Sattin: absolutely. David Burns: Is that powerful? Neil Sattin: I would say, so, yeah. David Burns: And so everything you see, we've been trained to tell patients - you have a mental disorder - you can look it up in DSM, you could qualify for probably three different mental disorders. And that makes us ashamed of our suffering. Thinking. Oh, there's something wrong with me. And what we're saying is there's actually something right with you - a lot that's right with you - your suffering comes from the part of you that's most beautiful and awesome, at least with regard to depression and anxiety, not not so much relationship conflicts, although to a certain extent. But in depression and anxiety it's something beautiful. And that's called "assessment of resistance." And then with her we came up with, I think, 22 beautiful things about her and benefits of her negative thoughts and feelings, and I said, well... Why would you wanna press that magic button 'cause then all of this will go down the drain? Why would you wanna do that? And she said "I see what you mean, but still I I'm suffering so much, isn't there something I could do?" And then we used the Magic dial and say, "Well maybe instead of pressing the magic button we could dial them down. Your depression is 90... How much would you like to be at the end of the demonstration, today?" Is there a lower level, that you could keep all these beautiful things about you and your shame, and your guilt? What would you like them to be? How anxious would you like them to be and she said "oh well 20% is enough on depression and maybe five would be enough anxiety, and shame - I'll turn that one all the way down to zero." Her anger... She was very angry at the parents who let their boys out with a loaded rifle. And she wanted that one to go from 100 to maybe 20 or something. And then we say, "Okay well, we got powerful techniques and will lower them to those levels." She had a gold she wrote down for each of her nine different negative emotions. They I say "we won't lower them any further, but we'll have to be careful 'cause the techniques I'm gonna use here are so powerful - we may overshoot." Your depression may go down to five or zero even - but don't worry if you get too depression-free or too anger-free I'll help you dial it up at the end of the session. And she liked that, and now the resistance, is gone. And then we just went on and identified the distortions and her thoughts, and showed her techniques and roleplay techniques to talk back to them, and she just blew her negative thoughts out of the water. And then at the end I said now do you think these people in the audience are thinking you're a bad mother and they're judging you? Could we do an experiment to find out if that's true? And she got very anxious and he said, "You mean maybe I could ask them?" and I said, yeah, would you wanna do that? She says No no A... And I said "your fear shows us that it's the thing to do" 'cause that's exposure, right? Confronting your fear. So she said, "Well maybe could some of you come up to the front," because a friend of mine was doing is on his tiny little cam recorder, and so talk into the microphone - and then you can ask them if they're judging you and how they feel about you. And then about 10 people came up and each one of them she said "How do you feel about me?" And they started - every one of them started crying and saying, "You're my hero. Getting up in front of the group and doing this demonstration shows what a beautiful mother and beautiful human being you are, and I'm so deep in admiration." And then she started sobbing - she couldn't believe it. To see how off-base or negative, her thoughts had been... And that was kind of the end of the session - we did the end of session measurements and everything had gone to zero and below zero. So, that's TEAM - testing, empathy, assessment of resistance, and the M is methods. That's identifying the distortions in the thoughts and turning them around. Now it plays out radically different for relationship problems when we follow the same structure. Neil Sattin: right, and I like when I've heard you talk about all the different methods that get combined, and how you work with people, that you're quick to point out that they come from all of these different places that you're sourcing all kinds of different therapy, therapeutic models and how you approach problems. David Burns: yeah, yeah, TEAM is not a school of therapy, I'm against all schools of therapy. And think they could all be got rid of, just as when the Catholic church, when science and astronomy broke away from the Catholic church, it became a science - data driven science. So now you see how fantastic physics and astrophysics and all of that, has become... And I think that therapy you can draw from all the schools of therapy and the M equals methods. I use over 100 methods really that are on my list for therapists, and they come from all schools of therapy. But then we should be focusing on basic research, to see how all of psychotherapy works. And then having a structure for therapy. TEAM is a structure for all of psychotherapy. That's how therapy works - rather than schools of therapy, which are generally guru-driven rather than a science-driven, and are pushing some theory of some person who has a lot of followers. Neil Sattin: And is the idea that you're paying attention to what is actually working for the individual? 'cause I can see that some things might statistically look like they work more than other things, but if it's not working for the person in front of you, then it doesn't matter how statistically proven, it is to be effective. David Burns: Yeah, like her thought - the first thought she wanted to work on from her daily mood log was "I never should have let my daughter go out and play." And in my mind or on paper, I generate what's called a recovery circle. I imagine that thought's in a circle that she's trapped in - and then there's arrows coming out of the circle. And each arrow is a different way of escape and at the end of each arrow would be one of these hundred methods that I use. Like a method could be identifying the distortions, or externalization of voices, or examine the evidence, or a downward interpersonal arrow, or the hidden emotion technique, or whatever techniques. And then I go through them one at a time, in my mind, until I find the "Aha!" one that just implodes the system and the patient suddenly recovers. This recovery generally happens in a matter of... Oh, maybe a minute or something like that. When the patient suddenly sees that the negative thought is not true, at that very moment they will improve or recover. Neil Sattin: Okay, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to do something that I've only done occasionally, here on the show, but what I'd love to maybe try if you're up for it is... is to do a little work together. Because I feel like one of the reasons that I reached out to you is that when I was thinking, Okay, we're in the middle of a crisis, at least that's what the thoughts tell us - and the news tells us - and most of us are living somewhat sheltered in place. We're not leaving our homes... So the world is different in this moment. I was thinking, Okay, who... Who do I know that I would most trust to show up in a moment like this? And you were the first person that came to mind for me and so it's... David Burns: So kind of you to say - thank you - you're one of my heroes. Neil Sattin: Thank you David, I appreciate that. And so what I'm hoping is that for everyone listening, that if they... I think it's so instructive to hear you talk about the process and, as you know, witnessing the process might also be really helpful for people as they think like, Okay, how do I deal with everything that's happening in the world right now? [First we revisit the data set to see if we could find any more causal relationships or correlations] David Burns: We're looking at the relationship between relationship satisfaction, happiness or unhappiness on the one hand, and then a 10-item happiness scale. It's things like "I feel worthwhile, I feel close to people. I feel productive," and so forth. We'll get on to our exciting personal work, which is gonna be way cooler than research for your listeners. But we did get some clear cut results here, with, I think the... N on this is 9000 sessions - and so we can now say... Okay, let's just, let's look at the results, right? Okay, we've gotta just make one last adjustment. Does happiness lead to better relationships? Or does better intimacy cause feelings of happiness? That seems like a reasonable question, don't you think? So, and I'm just, I'm setting this up in the software I have no idea of what these results are gonna show, but they do, they do show a fairly clear cut result here. The correlation between positive feelings and relationship satisfaction is about.38 - it's a modest correlation - not huge - you take the square root of that which would be about 15 or - the square. The square of.38 is about.15. So there's about 15% overlap between how satisfied you feel in your relationship with your spouse, or partner, and how happy you are. Now, in one of these models I declared that there was no causal effect of positive feelings on relationship satisfaction. In other words, that when you're reporting how satisfied you are with your spouse or your partner, we're testing the theory that... How happy or unhappy you are, has nothing to do with that. Now do you think that's a true or false theory? Neil Sattin: I would say that that's - intuitively I would say false. That your level of relationship satisfaction would impact how happy you say you are. David Burns: Well, you're, you're right, you're a genius. Because it has no causal effect whatsoever. Now, how about the other hypothesis? Is your happiness, feeling of happiness, influenced by how satisfied you are in your relationship with your spouse or partner? Neil Sattin: That was the one that I was saying, I thought would there would be a correlation. David Burns: Well, we're talking about causal effects not correlation... Neil Sattin: Right, so, in other words, with the first one, does your inner state of happiness cause you to report more satisfaction in your relationships? David Burns: Right, and, and you predicted "no", and you were right... Neil Sattin: But that was the one where it was 15% like that there was 15%... David Burns: No - that's just the correlation between them, but that doesn't mean there's a causal relationship. Neil Sattin: Okay, got it, thank you for clarifying that. David Burns: Yeah, but if you're very unhappy and then you become very happy, that's not gonna affect how you report your relationship satisfaction or dissatisfaction. And that's kind of what I found in my pilot study too, that when we made people's depression, disappear, it had no effect on their level of satisfaction with happiness or unhappiness in their marriage. Now we're looking at the other direction. Does how happy or unhappy you are, in your relationship, does that affect your feeling of depression? Neil Sattin: I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Yes. David Burns: Yeah, and again, you're right, so you... I think you need to go into statistics. Good statistics should reflect common sense. It often gives surprises. There is a causal effect there, and I can tell you how big the causal effect is. My relationship satisfaction scale, is highly accurate. It goes from zero to 30. So let's say your relationship satisfaction increased by 10 points - that would be a huge improvement. And it's hard to get that in a clinical situation when someone's unhappy with their marriage. But if you can boost it by 10 points there would be four-tenths of a point increase in the positive feeling scale, which goes from zero to 40. So it's the same result that I had in Philadelphia. There is a causal effect in the direction you mentioned, but it is so tiny as to be kind of theoretically and clinically, meaningless. And it's kind of an interesting result, because it means that how happy or depressed you are, on the one hand, and then how close you feel to people in general or to your partner on the other hand - that they're not related to each other - for the most part, there's no connection. So, the tools that you would need to improve a relationship and the theory of what causes bad relationships is totally different from the tools you would need to treat depression or boost happiness and the things that cause depression or happiness. That they're independent domains - they are not linked. Neil Sattin: So, there you did see a causal effect, but it was pretty small. David Burns: Yeah, it's exactly what I reported in my original paper in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology in the mid-1990s or something like that - and no one's ever attempted to replicate it. Today, I have the first replication studies of that. And it is important because it means, let's say you're a therapist, and someone comes in with depression, and they're lonely or they have a poor relationship. Clairman and Cole [sic] have this thing called Interpersonal therapy where they treat depression by improving people's relationships, and then they think that that's effective. And of course, the therapy, all therapies for depression have a placebo effect and not much more. And that's true of theirs. And so while they do get people somewhat better. It's not - the depression doesn't improve because of improved relationships - improving relationships will not cause you to feel less depressed or happier. Neil Sattin: It's so interesting, it's so interesting. And I guess this must be something that I'd account for, I'd have to account for it in a different way. At this point it makes sense to me... People often talk to me about their relationships, I think, because of what I do. But prior to what I did, I found people talking to me a lot about their relationships, and it always seems, it has always seemed as though that if something isn't going well, that that weighs heavily on them and it does ripple out into the other aspects of how they perceive themselves to be doing. So what that would suggest - what you just revealed - is that we may harbor this belief that there's a connection there, when in fact those are two completely independent domains and should be treated as such. So, what someone says, "How are you doing" and you... You say like... Well, I'm okay, but my relationship is horrible or whatever. Then maybe the next response that should happen given what you just said, is like, "okay, that makes sense. Let's separate those two, because they are a completely separate or almost completely separate." David Burns: Right, right, and because you don't have a big ego, like probably your self is dead, so you're open and can receive. But the problem with most mental health professionals is that they think they know things, and so it's hard to accept new findings. I find these new findings that are so different from what I believe to be, in a way, kind of exciting, because what it means is that we have new understanding of how the world works, and then we can use that to refine our effectiveness as therapists. But sometimes it's really hard to accept what research teaches us because it shuts down what we thought intuitively to be the case. But I found this also true, that when - I have treated thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of people with depression and now I have tools to cause depression to disappear most of the time, just really fast in a single two-hour session. And I never work on boosting relationships - I can cause depression to go away without any attention to how happy or unhappy a person is in their intimate relationships. And if they also want help with relationships, then I would use a completely different set of therapeutic tools from the ones I used to treat depression. So it's just kind of interesting and you always have to take it with a grain of salt, because you can fool yourself with research too. But I've seen this now with two huge databases exactly the same results. Neil Sattin: I'd be interested to see how this... Not that we're gonna do this right now, but how this would overlap with say all the research and modeling that John Gottman has done, and see where those datasets correlate with... Where they line up with each other, and where there might be disparities between the two. David Burns: Yeah, absolutely, and if you review the literature too, if you want publish a paper, you have to say so-and-so found this and so and so found that... And so forth. But the kind of analysis that I'm doing here is-it's difficult to do, it's the most difficult topic in all of statistics when you have A and B - the kind of the chicken and egg thing. Most people don't know how to do this. This kind of modeling. But it would be fun. Maybe he has never measured happiness at the same time that he's measured relationship satisfaction - maybe he's never measured depression at the same time he's measuring relationship satisfaction. That's what you need to measure these things. at time A and then measure them again at time B later on - and then you can model the causal connections if any between the variables. But yes, it would be fun to find that out, but let's do something cool and truly awesome now and get rid of statistics...

[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKKjlDNUwFk] Today’s podcast featuring the roundtable talks about the controversial relaunch of the OKI brand. We examine the potential motivating factors behind New Riff selling the label and if it’s a pure money grab by the new company that owns it. We then look at the current landscape of craft distillers and if they will survive the COVID-19 conditions as over 43% of all craft distillery workers have now been laid off or furloughed. Lastly, we see an age statement return to Knob Creek. Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about buying whiskey for cheap during the pandemic. OKI is being relaunched with new ownership. Why would New Riff do this and is it a money grab? 118 craft distillers surveyed recently, 42% said they do not believe they will able to stay in business for more than three months with COVID-19. Is the craft boom going to bust? The return of 12 and 9 year Knob Creek. What does this mean for private barrel selections? Thanks to Blake from bourbonr.com, Nick from BreakingBourbon.com , Brian from sippncorn.com, and Kerry from Subourbia for joining. Support this Podcast on Patreon   0:00 There's two things you can count on on the roundtable. That's I'm gonna be here and that my Internet's gonna go out. 0:17 Welcome back because it's Episode 253 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your hosts Kenny. And on our news this week, we selected a barrel of wheat whiskey from old elk. But we're also joined by special guest and master distiller Greg Metz, you might recall back from Episode 154, because he was also the previous master distiller for that big factory in Indiana we call MGP virtual barrel picks, they might be the new normal for a while, so we're looking forward to bringing more of those to you via live streams. So make sure that you are subscribed to our YouTube channel, so you don't miss a single one of them. Now onto the news. Will it distilleries master distiller drew Cole's Veen has been named a finalist for the coveted James Beard award. 1:00 Award for Outstanding wine, beer or spirits producer. The James Beard Foundation awards honor the best in food dining from cookbooks and rising shifts to the best restaurants and of course distilleries in the US. Time magazine even called it the Oscars of the food world. Drew Colvin first joined Willett distillery back in 2003. And overtime, he's developed mash bills that extend the company's bourbon and rye portfolio, which earned him for semi finalists nominations for the James Beard award. However, this is the first year that he's actually been named a finalist. So hats off to drew congratulations and awesome work on the recognition. The winners for the James Beard awards will be announced on September 25. 1:42 The 2020 release of the mixers 10 year old single barrel Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey will go on sale this may of 2020 it is 94.4 proof and it will sell for suggested retail price for around $130 in the US new bottles of larceny barrel proof and alarm 2:00 Craig barrel proof will be coming soon to a shelf near you both bearing the code B five to zero. The letter B means it's the second release of the year. digit five means it was released in the fifth month of the year, which is May. And the last two digits, you guessed it 2020 denote the year. The new batch of Elijah Craig barrel proof will come in at 127.2 which is on the lower end of the spectrum for the line. And the larceny barrel proof is now in its second release when you bottle that 122.2 proof and that's just one point lower than the initial first release, comprised of barrels ranging from six to eight years old. The larceny barrel proof will have a retail price of around $50 whereas the 12 year old Elijah Craig barrel proof will be around $80 you can look for both of these coming to a whiskey quickie in the near future. For those that enjoy the shutter Bock, we're from Texas comes a collaboration with bow Cody's and their new Texas Bach. It is a malt whiskey made from the exact recipe 3:00 shiner Bock beer, utilizing the breweries Nashville and proprietary lager yeast strain, to what they call create that remarkable flavor profile. It was Asian first fill American oak barrels for at least two years and made within Nashville of over 51% malted barley, about conus. Texas Bok will be bottled at 50% ABV and will be priced around $40. It will also be available for sale at the distillery and retailers throughout Texas and Oklahoma for a limited time and keep it on that Texas trailer bourbon. The garrison brothers bourbon distillery out of high Texas is releasing their garrison brothers bowl Maria bourbon. This bourbon is aged for four years in staves that have been dry aged for at least 25 months in the Ozarks. Then the liquid was transferred to a second new American barrel and aged for another year. Of course we all know is re barreling. It is finally bottled for this second release at 115 proof the 2020 bull Maria release 4:00 We'll be around 6000 bottles with a retail price of around $160. Now with more release News, New riff is doing their spring 2020 special release with the new riff back setter bourbon and rye. For this release, new rep really focused on sour mashing process and use the back set from the pizza malted barley in their mashing of their standard bourbon recipe. as they've mentioned, it resulted in a smoking flavor that is hauntingly unique with layers of peat envelopes a creamy spicy bourbon and rye. The back setter to pack will be listed for a total of $99 and 98 cents. And for today's podcast, we're featuring the roundtable it's another yet potentially controversial topic where we talk about the relaunch of the okay AI brand and we examine some of the motivating factors behind it not only just from New Roof but from the new owners as well. We then take a look at the current landscape of craft distilleries and if they will survive the current COVID-19 5:00 conditions. As a personal note, please make sure you're going out there and you're supporting your craft distillers. You're going to hear more about it in the podcast today. And lastly, we also talk about the return of H statements that we're seeing on a brand of knob Creek. We're all excited to see that now as well. Joe from barrel bourbon who wants you to know that it's gotten a whole lot easier to get their unique cash drink whiskies from around the world, just visit barrel bourbon.com and you can click the Buy Now button bourbon to your door. It's as easy as that. Up next is Fred minich with above the char, so continue to stay safe, and we'll see you out there soon. Cheers, everyone. 5:40 I'm Fred medic, and this is above the char. This is not going to be a pleasant above the char if you're someone who is eagerly waiting for the prices to drop because of the pandemic. Some time ago, I was having a conversation with somebody and I saw it also on Facebook and Twitter. This is a considered 6:00 A theme amongst people in the bourbon community talking about how they cannot wait for the bourbon to drop in price to take advantage of the pandemic. I thought to myself at the time, you know, it's it's not a very nice thing to think because if we drop in price, that means people are going to lose their jobs. That means businesses are going to be going bankrupt. That means the bourbon boom that we've known that's kind of helped support this podcast and other cottage industries such as Mint Julep tubers, and r&r limousine Pegasus, 6:38 such as the travel industry that has become Kentucky bourbon trail. That means if all those prices start dropping, and all those wholesale barrels go out on the market for far less than they were, oh boy, yeah, you can maybe get a 160 $5 bourbon for something like 40 bucks, but you know what, and also means somebody can't feed their face. 7:00 Family, that means somebody is going to be out of work that means that the industry that we have known and love that has been thriving and growing is on its way to a major, major decline. But when I first saw that I was just kind of just kind of like ignored it and kind of moved on. And then people like jack rose and silver dollar started putting up their products for sale out of survival. And I was like, wow, 7:29 okay, I get it. We're going to be okay, we're going to be okay. But as many of you know, I am also an active 7:38 an active vintage, you know, buyer and I'm always looking for the market for like, you know, rare gyms. I was having a conversation with somebody 7:48 about a week ago. And I was talking about like, all the lots that are up for sale. And he says, You know what, I'm going to wait just a little bit longer, a little bit longer. When people 8:00 People are much more desperate. 8:03 And I don't know why that bugged me so much, because that is a part of business when you are someone who was looking to buy something you do want to buy when the person is, you know, willing to sell for the least amount. And that just bugged me. And I'm not saying that we should. We should be overpaying for things in the vintage market. But I believe in fair markets, I believe in fair market value. I believe in paying for a rare bottle of dallying bottle and bond. 8:35 I believe paying for what it's actually worth and not waiting for someone to they can't feed their family. I think right now what we have seen in bourbon, to a lesser degree, but what we have seen with this pandemic, we have seen people for who they really are. We have two sides that are constantly bickering and fighting over how we should deal with this and blaming one another all the time. And then you have the 9:00 Majority of America right there in the middle trying to figure out what to do. And it seems we also have those who cannot wait for you to hit rock bottom so they can buy up your collections. So, if that's you, or if you know someone like that, I asked you to please not be that way to change your mind to think of this as like a moment of a human just being human. If somebody comes to you, you know, for you to buy their collection, or to buy a bottle, you know, even if it's out, you know, encourage them to do illegally, of course, but be fair about it. Be fair about it, because you don't know what that money can mean to that person's family. 9:48 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char during this pandemic, hit me up on Twitter, Facebook or Instagram, just search for my name, Fred MiniK. Cheers. 10:04 Hey everybody and welcome to the 44th recording of the bourbon Community Roundtable. We've got a lot of people joining us live tonight as we discuss a good popery of What's New in bourbon news. And thankfully, we won't have to talk much about COVID because that really hasn't really impacted much in the bourbon world. Everything is just kind of status quo. There's a few hints of releases coming out however, I think it's actually a good thing that hasn't happened because it keeps people away from going out and running and chasing bourbon right now in a time when you shouldn't be probably doing that. So everybody's kind of being a little safe. Ryan has your purchasing habits for bourbon decrease now? Yeah, all my funds have allocated towards to go margaritas swirl Margarita. 10:51 We do those carry out Margarita is like three times a week. It's like when we first started they would just give you the Margarita was in a straw and you're like, Oh well, you know 11:00 I guess I'd have in the car on the way home and then and then then they went to we can't give you a straw and you're like, Okay, so I start bringing out straws. And then they went to you have to order an appetizer when you get it. So now it's a, which is fine. So just get the chips and walk with it. But the swirl Margarita mojitos if you're in mobile, excellent. There you go. So that's what you've been spending your money on. I actually bought my first bottle in a while today I saw I went to my local store to go and buy some things. Oddly enough, I had to get more tequila because we are running low because of margaritas and such and considering we just kind of had, you know, Taco Tuesday and everything like that. And, you know, cinco demayo. So I think the one thing that I did buy was the the makers 101 that new like fancy box. So look for that in a whiskey quickie coming soon at some point when we can Yeah, exactly. So let's go ahead and let's, let's kick it off tonight because we've got a lot of good topics as we start diving into this. And so I'm gonna go with the person that that 12:00 In the middle towards the bottom you start with Brian Harris sipping corn everybody where you blog and then let's start with a fun fun question night indeed believe in ghosts yes I absolutely believe in ghosts and maybe I'll write a there's some whiskey blogs that I might need to do on on ghosts but they're they're true find me at sip and corn mostly on Twitter also Facebook and Instagram and online the the website is sip and corn calm you can also find it at bourbon justice calm. Thanks for having me again guess of course. And let's go to our good friend Carrie over here Carrie. How's it going? Good. Thanks guys for bringing me in tonight. Carrie from suburbia calm. It's up to you our bi a. You can find me on Twitter at bourbon underscore gamer and Instagram at suburbia. And yes, I absolutely believe in ghosts. And sometime when we're off on a tangent, I'll tell you all about the stories growing up in a house in Atlanta, that was definitely haunted. 13:00 Okay, well, I'm sitting on pins and needles can't wait. 13:05 Call me later, right? Yeah. 13:07 All right, Nick, your turn. Hey, everybody. Glad to see everybody tonight. I'm Nick one of three founders of breaking bourbon. Find us online at breaking bourbon calm and check us out on social media. All at breaking bourbon. We're on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Patreon and now, tick tock so throwing up some videos up there too. And you gave in. I'ma be like, yeah, I joined you guys. We joined you guys, but I guess I'll burst the bubble here. I'm not a believer in ghosts myself. I like a good ghost story. But that's about as far as I go. So all right, Blake, you're up, buddy. All right. I'm Blake from burner and toolbox calm. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, that's Bo you are Bo n r and then seal boxes. S e lb a CH 14:00 And I'm actually you know, let's see. Where's the vote Ed? I don't know for split but I'm with Nick on this one. Yeah, that can't can't go down that goes throughout. You know, maybe it was too many like, corny tours as a kid through St. Augustine, Florida, which is about 30 minutes from us that that did be in But no, if, you know, they've made 10,000 TLC and discovery show TV shows about it, they still can't track it down it goes, I'm gonna go ahead and say they don't exist. So 14:31 few more of these Bourbons, so and you never Yeah, you're right. It doesn't exist, but I can go to Instagram and see that it does exist. So that's 14:41 20 says the truth is out there. Ryan, did you believe in ghosts? Uh, sure. I don't know. Yes, Ghostbusters. Like one of my favorite like movies. So like, I gotta believe in it. You know, I had the whole you know, backpack and like thing you slide out and catch them. So right yeah. 15:00 I'm all for them. I mean, it just kind of makes me wonder if like bourbon and Ecto cooler would be a good combo then. Hey, I'm all for it. I mean even remember Ecto cooler that was like the the with Slimer. Like that was that flavor back in the day? Oh, shit, I was good. All right, so let's kind of move on to our first topic because I think this is one that is a little polarizing. And so this is something that has recently happened is that okay, I the brand that was originally owned by new roof and kind of what put new roof on the map is really kind of recalls they were putting out anywhere between 10 to I think like 14 or 15 year old 36% higher I MGP towards the end of it. We've had Ken Lewis of new riff on the podcast before telling his story about how he bought those barrels when he was still when he owned the party source up in Northern Kentucky. And then he finally found a way to be able to turn that into another business and then sell those as a way to kind of you know, really got 16:00 To get the launching point going for a new roof now what we found out is that the is that new roof has sold off the brand. And it is now being owned by two people. Then it also started the 16:14 blank. We're just about before we started the what were the brands where they started ramus Yes. 16:21 Yeah. What was the other? I don't know. We just we just totally blanked and we're terrible. I'm terrible hosts that I shot. 16:27 volstad except the one. Well, it was there's the Jordan grants George Freeman. I really want I know of offhand, but exactly the MGP burn. Yeah, MPP bought it from them. They got 16 from them. So let's kind of break this down a little bit because the one thing that that I'm kind of looking at this I look at it in the first aspect and I'll kind of throw this out there is why would new riff want to sell? Okay, I Well, I mean, I think that you know, they've kind of made it clear that they want to be all about the district. 17:00 They waited those four years. Okay, I served this purpose. So why not cash in on it? You know, I don't know what the you know usually go on like a base of 17:11 sales multiples and that kind of thing for a brand. So this is probably a little bit different, but we talked about it a little before of, it's kinda like the black Maple Hill, you know, black Maple Hill was this old brand. That 17:24 I guess was it originally with kbd? Or will it in a, you know, the people out of California bought it and it dropped out of quality? Then it moved to Oregon in. I can't tell you how many people say, Hey, I found a bottle of black Maple Hill and it's like, well, is it in a short squat model? Because you're not going to want to drink it for 100 bucks. Right? But that but that business model works, you know, people they've heard about this brand, it's got a little clout in the community. 17:51 So why don't I go ahead and and, you know, put some more bourbon in it. But I get that i think i think my my question is 18:00 Why would why would new ref and why would Ken Lewis actually want to get rid of something like they had something for so long it was it was successful. There's nothing that said they couldn't revive it years down the road. Why would they just take it and sell it to somebody else like it? That's one part that I'm still trying to figure out how to understand here. So I think they I think originally actually dug up I was looking around at websites actually dug up a website that's that's still out there. And it's new riff I think their old website I'm going to share it up here on on YouTube but it's got a whole kind of page dedicated Okay, I I'm not sure this is supposed to still be up or not on the web. But you know, I almost feel like they've kind of at this point realized their success with new roof is so strong that that idea of ever going back that okay, I brand as part of new roof. Maybe they've just gotten to the point where they said we just we just don't need it. That's not part of the vision anymore. You know, the idea was it was always going to be a short term brand. 19:00 I think but I get it, you kind of hold in your back pocket just in case you know, 10 years 15 years down the road, you may want to reintroduce it. It's almost as if now they're looking saying you know what, we're not going to do anything with it. We still like the brand if we've got people that are interested in taking that brand to a new height, we don't want it go ahead guys. You guys take it and we're doing our thing over here. So I think it's a lot attributed to numerous success that they've had now in the idea that there they probably don't plan on putting any resource into Okay, I or didn't for a long time and they're saying if somebody else is going to so be it, take it we'll take a little money and be done with it. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, they think about the single barrels that had a lot of success in 2019 and a lot of them were new riff I mean they're they're proud of what they got with good reason. To me you know, think of another example Who else could do this and it's smooth Ambler. It's like smooth Ambler getting rid of old scowl once they have their own distillate. That's that's a bigger scale, I think and that would be really surprising if they ever did that. 20:00 That's the same idea once you're once you're proud of your own distillate and your own product you move toward that and and help keep the lights on by selling a brand did that did okay I ever get distributed outside of Kentucky Ohio and Indiana 20:18 the small that it wasn't much outside was it? I don't think so. I think Yeah, I was like the tri state area was what they had like 50 barrels in total right or it wasn't like there was massive amounts was there dudes a finite number of barrels they started with and that was always the idea was it was just going to fun there next thing you know it's never going to be a brand that continued in it was never going to be a brand new we're going to go try to source more to somehow continue at least that's what the how the story goes. Yeah cuz new is made its way now and it's coming to Georgia. And yeah, I feel I kind of with Brian. On that whole thing. You put your initial investment into that that one company but once you see that you 21:00 your heart and your soul is in the product that you're making and the label that you're proud of. It's like, what's the point of keeping behind? You know, I mean, money speaks at the end of the day, right? So, you know, you make money from selling that label, why not? Yeah. And then the last time we were there, I mean, they got a ton of like, expansion going and building stuff. And it's like, they probably could have used the cash. You know, the capital. I mean, I don't know how lucrative of a deal it was just to sell the brand off. But it might be to to meet some short term cash needs that they need to, you know, keep growing the new roof brand and it's like, Hey, you know, Hell, I can't tell you how many Okay, I bottles I passed on like, just because I was like, I just MGP again, you know, who? Stupid me But uh, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, it probably. I don't know how valuable that brand is really. I mean, it's somewhat noticeable. But I'd say in the grand scheme of thing it's not, you know, that well known of a brand in the grand scheme of things. I mean, we as hobbyists, we know, aka Okay, 22:00 All right, I want to go out and ask 20 people, you know, if they've heard of it, they haven't heard it yet. I can tell you people were like, okay, that, okay, bring it, 22:10 bring it to a big market and see if anyone knows anything about it. And yeah, I don't think they would, I think they're gonna have to put a lot of effort into it to really get the snowball rolling again and take it anywhere from from where it kind of is sitting right now, you know, beyond that, the tightly knit enthusiast market, but I don't think it has that massive, you know, appeal of like other big brands, but it's an easier story to tell of, you know, where it came from, and people kind of, oh, have you heard a new riff and you know, it kind of it. For me, it's just an easier segue for retailers to explain to customers why they're charging $120 per bottle, but yeah, we'll see. And so I kind of want to put a thought in about, you know, the whole sales aspect because I look at this, as let's rewind the clock back like 23:00 I'd say a while ago, you know, when other brands were basically doing mash trading of labels and distilleries to basically stay afloat. And Ryan, you're probably right. Maybe this was something to get a quick cash grab, because who knows in 10 1520 years, if anybody's gonna care about it, but it could also be in 10 2015 years, when people like us for like, holy shit, it's back like, Oh my god, right? Like, we would have like a party about it. This is just kind of like, Oh, this seems a little weird, right? I mean, yeah, it's weird. And it's like, if it's just two guys doing it, and you look at a business venture out of it, like how much do you really think they paid for it? 10,000 20,000 If you really think they paid like $50,000 for this brand. Oh, I was thinking at least 100,000 I was thinking 100 myself too. I was thinking I was I was also thinking New Roof might they might have told this story. You know, these guys might have told a story. This is our plans with it. And that could have been something that the folks at New riff kind of said okay, we're kind of seeing the vision. 24:00 And we're, it's not just about the money, it's about the idea that you're going to do something with this brand that we're never going to do and that we don't want to do, and don't have any plans to do. And that might have been part of it too, because they did talk about kind of retelling that story and, you know, doing some things with this brand to kind of revitalize, which obviously, they need to do. But that may be part of it as well be really interesting to know what was paid for it. Yeah, gosh, I wouldn't think I just couldn't imagine paying more than, like, 25 $30,000 for it, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I just think I think I see. I'm trying to think of like a I'm just trying to think of like percentage of business that limited releases are you know, for for Okay, or anyone and it's not that much and then you're trying to think about the margin you make on that and I'm like, okay, that just doesn't seem like a valuable that much. Like, I wouldn't pay much more than that to to profit off that name, I guess but maybe I don't know. I'm an idiot. So who knows? When they're when the bottles come out and see how expensive they are? Then you'll know how much Yeah, you'll figure it out. Really quick. 25:00 Yeah. And so that kind of like tails and dovetails in the next part because we we look at this from our perspective and our perspective as enthusiasts and also keep this in mind. Nobody gave a shit about Okay, I until the MGP. hype train started. Right, right. I mean, it was around for a while some people were getting some bottles, they were 1213 years old people like that, then all of a sudden the MGP chasers came around, cleared those out, then kept going and moving to the next distillery until every distillery is basically cleared out of this high aged MGP. So one thing that people have to understand is that this will not be the same product as you had before. And if you want it to be that, maybe you should not buy a bottle and wait additional 10 years, and maybe it'll be there because we all know that what's available in the market today that you're going to get from a GP is probably around five years old. If you're lucky, maybe six. And so I guess we we look at this and we think like okay, if you are going to be under new ownership with this, how like what is that price point do you think that you need to be at 26:00 Do you look at this as like a pure speculation of just like, hey, let's just ride the coattails of a brand that was known by a bunch of people in a bourbon community in the tri state area, and then try to make a national brand out of it. But what's that? What's that price point got to be at to be able to do that? And how do you stay competitive against everybody else in the market? Who's pushing MGP? Because you're not you're not you're not unique anymore? Let's keep it to say they're gonna be MGP, though. I mean, oh, you know that? Yes, because it says it in the press release that they are sourcing. 36% high right. MGP to do this brand, they're not steering away from what it was before. Yeah, you gotta be at like $100 or more. I think $40 is a good price point for if you're looking for something that you want to say I want to take it national, I want this to be just about every state or every state. It's somewhat similar to other Bourbons out there, you're going to buy it because the flavor because the label, maybe the story a little bit, but I think $40 is kind of that sweet spot where you're not 27:00 so high that people are just going to ignore it and bite your high enough that they're going to look at it as an elevated brand out there so if they're putting out a $40 bottle and it's hitting everywhere I think with the right marketing behind it and a decent flavor decent age I think they I think they could do it and make it something like like smooth Ambler we're seeing that coming coming back now and that's at that price point. For example, you know if they want to go higher if they want to go into this 70 hundred dollar range they're gonna have to really we've quite a story I mean, think Kentucky owl kind of you know, they're gonna have to source some stuff that we didn't really know was available to source or that was, you know, kind of a surprise to kind of hit those higher numbers or they go above 100 but be interesting to see if they kind of go towards that limited premium side or if they go towards that make it available to everybody side on that lower price. I think you guys underestimate the ridiculousness that people will pay. Yeah, or ridiculousness. Well said I always think of my head. 28:00 Is that heaven store? bourbon. That was that total wine? I think it was like 399 or 499 I'm sure it was sourced from somewhere. Maybe MGP have a bootleg one. Yeah, the one that was like it was like, seven years. It was like 27 years old. No, not that one. It wasn't that old. But it said something like, here's heading included a guitar string from somebody and had a leather bound notebook and and it was 499 and I'm thinking nobody's gonna buy that this is bullshit. And a week later, all three of them were sold out. You know, I think it's, it's, this is the ideal market. If you want to push into you know, marketing bullshit. This is the market for it right now. People are gonna buy what you put out. And all you need to practically do is charge a high price. Yeah. And a fancy bottle. Fancy bottle has got instant prestige and there might not be anything to it. Yet 29:00 Yeah, as the comment is right now just put a horse on the bottle and it's 29:05 that's it. I think this is a mark. It's a perfect mark. Well, you know, Douglas Pendleton put it in the chat. Price dries perception. And that is extremely true in today's market. It's like, well, it's under dollars. It's gotta be better than the bottle. That's $50 Yeah. Why would they only charge 50? If it's worth 100? Yeah, cuz they had to pay $200,000 for the brand, right? 29:30 It just went out and he says the price is double Blake. Yeah, just double. Yeah, I mean, the one thing that I see this and this is just from a pure whiskey perspective, is that we've we've seen this story before. And we've seen and we've tasted this whiskey before. And we know a bunch of different places that are putting out five year MGP 36% high rye, sorry, all it's not ready yet. In my opinion, it's still not there. And I think there's still going to be a lot more time that needs to go into the barrel to actually make this live up to the hype. 30:00 what it was before and so you're gonna have the same exact people that are getting burned by the same products and then it's just gonna be history repeating itself. Yeah. Are y'all ready for the big reveal? It's me and Kenny who bought it? 30:17 totally get it 30:21 opens and it's $1,000 is that is that pursuit release 340 30:27 Yeah, episode 30:29 together. Yeah, we're getting our own boxes that have like hydraulic lifts in it that just like raise it up three inches so you can take it off its pedestal. They're they're holograms of Kenny's tic Tock videos. 30:42 We've got to take the sticker game to the next level, right? We've just had to figure out how to do that to make people really want to know what's what took the sticker game to the next level and is underappreciated is gifted horse. It was a terrible whiskey. But did you know it was Scratch and sniff? Yeah, I don't know if everybody I can't believe you. 31:00 Nobody I can't believe no one else has done that after that because it's such a crazy funny idea to me. I want a bottle just so I can have a scratch and sniff label again, like I don't even care that the whiskey sucks. I want gifted horsetail. man you love orphan barrels, I do like a round table Buffalo Trace for a gifted horse. It's worth $140. 31:23 Get on it, man. Make it happen if you can. Alright, so let's let's kind of move on to the next subject because this one is it's kind of a sore subject. This is definitely dealing with COVID and everything that that's been going on because according to a survey that has been released by the distilled spirits Council of the United States, as well as the American distilling Institute, with a survey of 118 craft distillers they found that two out of three have worried not only about the short term, but also the long term survival of their business. And 42% believe that they will not be able to stay in business for more than three months, and another 21% of worry that they will go out of business for the next three months. And I believe 32:00 We've also said that 43% of all craft distillery workers across the US right now have either been laid off or furloughed. So we look at this right now that we're potentially in the craft boom bust. Now, the the question for you all that I kind of have with this is that in a capitalist sort of mentality and opportunity here, why aren't more big players in this game, trying to swallow up craft distilleries? For dimes on $1 right now? 32:33 Before before y'all Sorry, guys, y'all know a lot about this, but I just have a question do they say? I mean, did they say why? They're struggling because it seems like the spirit tree is booming, right? 32:47 Yeah, local distilleries, they own their yard. So like they really depend on tours and, you know, local events and tourism. You know, I was I was digging into that more to carry because everywhere you're seeing is how 33:00 All sales are up, and you've seen it all over the place, if you're not seeing it on the news, seen it with people, you talk to just your friends and family and so forth. You know, I was looking at that too and started digging around a little bit about that, and kind of found this this whole kind of changing dynamic of this idea that people aren't buying on premise now that they're buying from the online retailers or some of the big brick and mortars you know, for the most part, and that's that hurts. They're basically the these craft distillers or major margin is what they're selling on premise with their bars, the restaurants, the stuff they're selling directly with the bottle, so where they're seeing their profit is basically dried up, even though they might be still selling some of their product. But then a lot of that stuff being bought online is the big name, lower price kind of stuff that people are just, you know, kind of repetitively buying. So all this crap stuffs going to the wayside. And these guys are sitting on a lot of them and insane amounts of debt that they need to service and it's a very short it's really pretty sad. I hope they don't 34:00 Go under to the you know, to the extent that it looks like they could, but it's a very short window for them to either survive this thing or not survive this thing. 34:08 I didn't think about how much is that how much of their revenue is from people coming in and on site? So they make a lot of their profit derivative. Yeah. 30% is a pretty conservative estimate for most craft distilleries have tasting rooms. 34:25 And, you know, they have a bar and that kind of stuff, it could be even higher. And, you know, so all that's just gone out the window. So they're kind of making up with it with hand sanitizer trying to, you know, do what they can into next point. You know, whenever people are buying for a pandemic, they're grabbing, grabbing fodder grabbing. Yeah, I think I think that's a good point. It's like, people are drinking more, but they're not, you know, like one seven fives of like Evan Williams, and that's what they're, you know, that's what most people are grabbing for. They're not going for the higher price craft stuff. And so it's a and do it like 35:00 You know people are buying alcohol but you know, restaurants and bars are like zero. And so they you know, a lot of the tastes like you all said the tasting rooms and visitor centers, you know that these guys depend on or just it's gone from to zero and so and I don't really think they're getting any help either I mean the PPP stuff goes to two employees and a little bit to rent and that's not their expenses I mean they they have a lot of suck sunk and expenses that they're just not really getting anything from the government on here. Yeah, you know, their revenue and they've still got a, you know, fun that Vendome still and their construction costs and everything else there. I mean, it's it's serious. I agree with Matt. Matt's comment there that hand sanitizer production has kind of caught up now. Yeah, yeah. So what do you they don't need to do that anymore, either. Yeah. And they struggle with that, too. A lot of regulations were tricky. A lot of them ended up making it and not even really being able to sell it. 36:00 They just, you know, made it a lot of pro bono. And a lot of cases that really wasn't a moneymaker per se. I think they just got stuck in a place where they didn't really need to produce whiskey and they were trying to help and, you know, trying to keep staff. Yeah, and a lot of these places have a pretty low staff count to, you know, to Brian's point. There's not a lot of people that work in a small craft distillery, usually, a lot of times, it's actually just the owners, maybe that are that are working there. You know, and they're there. A lot of times they have just an incredible amount of debt to service that even in a perfect world when everything's going well. It's a hard business. So you just you just pull out one little piece, you know, it's like a thing of Jenga pull out one piece the whole thing's gonna topple. And it's very, very well could be the piece I'd be curious Blake, what you're seeing on the sealed box side, from the, you know, kind of like the online sales side there and people approaching you from the craft distilleries. I mean, what's kind of been your feel for these folks that you are 37:00 pretty well. Yeah. So a lot of them are, you know, definitely feeling the feeling the effects of it. Most are making it but most are making it we got it. Yeah, no, no, I'm like, What can we send Blake an arrow or something? Like, uh, I think it's I think it's fun for my computer. Oh, 37:20 it's a ghost behind you, Blake. I left the podcast almost two years ago and Blake's internet still stayed the same. 37:30 So true. True. I, you know, I, I would say as much 37:35 as this has been damaging for so many small businesses and restaurants and bars and distilleries, and etc. I kind of feel like maybe we're getting close to good news starting to prevail and hopefully coming out of this thing within a month. I mean, you start to look at at least here in Georgia, we buckled down March 14 is when pretty much everybody 38:00 Went indoors and 38:02 our hospitals are at a very low rate right now. And I'm just hopeful that we can kind of come back out now and support these craft distillers I know that right before everything hit the fan. wilderness trail was distributed here in Georgia. And I kinda was just very curious to see how their sales went. And my local store had bought a couple cases of their they had the weeded the regular bourbon and the the rye. And all of it has to has sold pretty well. He said he's ordered more of it. So hopefully, we can get out of this thing and get back to these craft distillers. This is the one thing that that kind of strikes me a little bit. So I'm sitting here I'm trying to read the chat. And there's some people that are saying like, oh, like, it doesn't matter, like their whiskey sucks. It's too young as to whatever. Like this is the this is the moment this is the movement that we need, unless you want to keep drinking the same whiskey from the same six distilleries for the rest of your life. And I think that 39:00 Blake made a very good point in his presentation that he did at whiskey from home during that that online conference and saying that if you're buying craft whiskey, you're not trying to buy something that is just as good or comparable as the big guys. Instead, what you're doing is you're trying to get something that makes you drink or taste something different, right? Like you're finding either new grains, you're finding new ways that the they you know, they put it like a different age proof or they you know, they did whatever it is different because we all know that if you go to heaven Hill, or you go to a beam, you go to these different places. They've got, you know, like one, two, maybe three or four recipes, and they are cranking out stuff like on that still 24 hours a day. They're not changing. They're not experimenting, right? And so it's it's really hard for you to sit there and try to figure out like, okay, like, I hope your palate or your taste doesn't change over the next 1020 years because that's essentially what we're going to get. And I know it's been a bad rap on a lot of craft distilleries that they get, you know like in this, this, basically 40:00 pigeonholed in this part where they said like, oh, sorry, Your whiskies too young. It's two, three years old. And it's, you know, it doesn't meet my flavor profile. I get it. I'm kind of with you there. But we've got to be able to give them a chance to be able to get to the point here at 5678 910 years old when this whiskey is really going to start being mature and it does taste phenomenal that we've got a lot of options out there as consumers. So yep, yeah. And Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Sharon Selby is a certified health coach who strives to enable parents with the knowledge to help their kids thrive. Even if they struggle with allergies, intolerances, or other health niggles. Whether dairy free, gluten free or whatever free Sharon teaches parents how to feed a family delicious, nutritious food and build a healthier, happier life. Taking the stress out of sourcing great recipes with the right foods.In todays episode Sharon discusses her journey surrounding allergies, how it led to the IIM and her own experiences raising a family.For more information on Sharon Selby, please visit her website. https://deliciouslyallergyfree.com/I’d love to know your thoughts and experiences - join the conversation on my Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/paleochefpeteevans. For more episodes of Evolve, find us on iTunes at https://apple.co/2NpsIba, Spotify at https://spoti.fi/2NpSiN0, Acast at https://play.acast.com/s/pete-evans, click the link on https://peteevans.com, or just look up "Evolve" in your favourite podcast app. I'd love to spread the knowledge in these podcasts far and wide. If you liked this episode, I'd love it if you could share it with your friends, and perhaps even leave a review on iTunes. This podcast is proudly presented by The Institute For Integrative Nutrition, or IIN for short.I've completed this amazing health training course through IIN, and I would thoroughly recommend it for anyone wanting to start a career in the health coaching and wellness space.This course is conducted over a year long period and it's constructed in a way that if you're a full time worker or a busy parent or wherever you are in your life will still be able to complete all the required curriculum and modules. Please see the link included in this post on my Facebook or Instagram page or on iTunes, to access the free sample class and first module of the program, to get a great taste of the format and structure as well as utilise my special discount that I can offer you if you decide to sign up.Make sure you tell the admission team that you're part of the Pete Evans tuition savings to claim your very substantial discount visit https://www.integrativenutrition.com Theme music by Mandharu. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Bourbon and ham, is that a pairing you would expect? To be honest, neither did I. I’m a sucker for killing a plate of prosciutto at a dinner party, but thanks to our guest Steve Coomes, we’ve discovered a new love for country ham. When done right, the saltiness of the ham just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve as he talks to us about a past life as a pizza judge (yes, a pizza judge!) and then we get into hams. The diet of the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those ham legs you see hanging inside rickhouses. I think it will surprise you. Of course, it wouldn’t be complete if we didn’t do a bourbon and ham pairing. Try not to salivate too much. Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Whiskey From Home: WhiskeyFromHome.com Show Notes: Bourbon in a Decanter: Does is go bad? https://advancedmixology.com/blogs/art-of-mixology/does-bourbon-go-bad-in-decanter This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Derby. How did you get into spirits writing? Tell us about your bourbon and ham parings. Talk about your culinary background. How do you judge a pizza? Tell us about the hams you brought today. How do you come up with the pairings? Are the pigs fed a specific diet? What is the difference in the thickness of country ham and prosciutto. Tell us about curing. What sizes do hams come in? What flavors are you looking for when pairing? How much does this ham cost? Where can you buy country ham? What do you think about hams aging in rickhouses? 0:00 That country ham industry is its own worst enemy, many times and understanding what it needs to do to make itself look on par with Italian cured hams. Yeah. My wife it's charcuterie. She's like, Oh 0:11 yeah, you say it's like oh no, no way. It's like 0:28 Welcome to Episode 251 of bourbon pursuit. I hope you all are hanging in there with your quarantine here, because I know right now, mine's looking pretty Shaggy. I'm due for a haircut. But before I get to the news, I want to tell you once again about whiskey from home with the help of some of the best names in bourbon. We're doing a five and a half hour livestream of whiskey soap entertainment on May 2, starting at 12pm Eastern. So right now go to whiskey from home calm and get your free ticket there sessions on bourbon history. The best Bourbons on the shelf right now. Blind flights how to hunt for great bourbon, a virtual food pairing with Peggy no Stevens and a virtual bourbon tasting with our good friend, Fred MiniK. The shopping list for everything that you need to follow along. Is it whiskey from home calm, so go there. Check it out. It's a free event. So come and spend your Saturday afternoon with us. Now, bourbon into decanter doesn't go bad. This is a question that was asked and answered with extensive research from advanced mixology calm. After you buy a bottle of bourbon, how should it be stored? does it stay preserved for years or even decades have left on open? What about the canning of bourbon? Can it go bad then? Well, it all comes down to aeration, and without giving too much of it away. You can read all the answers to these questions to the link from advanced mixologist calm in our show notes. For today's podcast, we talked about bourbon and ham. Is that a pairing that you would expect? Well, to be honest, neither did I I'm a sucker for killing a whole plate of for shoot, I was at a dinner party. But thanks to our guest, Steve Coombs, I found a new love for country ham. When done, right, the saltiness of the ham, it just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve, as he talks about his past life as a pizza judge, you heard that right up pizza judge, I mean, talk about a dream job. But then we get into hands, the die to the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those hand legs that you see hanging inside of Rick houses. I think it's gonna surprise you. Of course, it wouldn't be complete if we didn't do a bourbon and hand pairing. So try not to salivate too much. All right, don't forget it whiskey from home calm, go register and get your free ticket. If you haven't had a chance yet, go to barrel bourbon.com and you can get cash drink bourbon, whiskey, rye and rum. All delivered direct to your door. Just look for the Buy Now button at the top of the page. All right. Now here we go. Yo, here's Fred minich with above the char. 3:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I'm a little sad right now. I'm actually really, really sad. We've had to cancel bourbon and beyond. I think many of you all know that. But that's the festival that I co created with Danny Wimmer presents and COVID is forcing a lot of cancellations, especially in the music world. What's gonna happen to the Kentucky Derby? No one really knows. But this Saturday would have been my 13 Kentucky Derby in a row to attend. And I'm just sad because that piece of that that moment is gone. It that it's gone. That piece of culture, that piece of celebration. And it's not necessarily about the horses. It's about the gathering of the people the smoking of cigars, a sipping a bourbon, seeing my wife go through, you know, 15 thousand different hats before she chooses one. So many great moments I've had over the years. I want to share one with you. Now, if you followed me you know that I've, I was a guest of the governor last year and I've been a millionaire's row and I've been around the celebrities and all that. And a lot of people be like, that would be that would be the one that would be like the one memory that you would want to take away when you think about your experiences as the from the derby. I've also been a photographer on the derby. I was on the finishing line in 2008 and got some really beautiful photos of a Belle's before she passed away. And yet, that's not it either. Now, my favorite Derby of all time, was when I was in Peggy know Stephens box with with my wife. We were just pregnant. We're just getting out of that first trimester where we could start telling people you know how it is if you've been pregnant? Well, I've never been pregnant. My wife spent pregnant but I say we as in like, you know, family, and you get out of that first trimester and you're so excited to tell people and we're Catholic. So that first step is always like, Alright, who are going to be the godparents? So it was on Derby Day, like, two, three years ago, that we were in Peggy's box and we asked Peggy, if she would be the godmother to our son, Julian. And she cried, said yes, of course. And it was just a magical moment. It was a wonderful celebration. And then I think I lost a couple hundred bucks on the race. But there's no replace in the derby. We can't replace that. That's just a magical, magical moment. If you've ever been, you know what I'm talking about, but we're doing something that is as good as we possibly can present right now. And that's whiskey from home. It is an amazing lineup of bourbon personalities. And I hope you will join us all day Saturday. As we drink bourbon as we talk bourbon, we're going to be streaming across the interwebs. Unlike any time before, this is the first, this is the first time my knowledge that we've ever seen something like this a virtual conference in the bourbon world. And my hat's off to Kenny Coleman. He's just done such a good job, you know, stepping up and getting this thing going. On the back end. I'm trying to get all the streaming stuff set up. And Ryan's going to be making cocktails and you know what, I'm going to try and make them alongside him. So I cannot wait to see how this goes for everybody. And I hope you will join us. It's this Saturday. I'm sure Kenny's already talked about it, and you're going to hear more about it later on. But it's going to be a great time is it going to replace the derby? Nothing can replace that in our hearts. But what it can do is it can help us get us through the fact that we are missing missing the greatest two minutes in sports. So that's this week's above the char. This one came from the heart. If you have a heartfelt story about the Kentucky Derby, hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or go to my website Fred medic comm and send me an email. I like reading those kinds of stories. Until next week, cheers 7:23 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, the whole team here today we've got bourbon and we've got ham where we talking pigs and bourbon today so this is this is something that I know Ryan and myself we're big barbecue guys, we got our green eggs, you've got your drum, you've got all kinds of things so terrible, but yes, it's a better omen. Yeah. And you know, for me, I love I love charcuterie boards when I go out to restaurants to can't get enough a ham. And I mean you remember we were talking about going to North Carolina you're talking about the gym. Oh, and ham. Is that what it is? Yep. 7:56 Yeah, the Serrano Hamza Oh, the ham on Hello. Yeah. 8:00 hormone 8:00 that's a source that's your jam on or GMO yeah 8:03 Jay Michael Jackson working there. 8:04 It's the jam the jam and ham. cured meats are like you're talking about love language and I used to raise pigs I used to raise pigs so like this is like ham to me is like it's what I grew up with. We used to raise do rocks and Berkshires and everything's kidding 8:21 yeah I had my Linux I knew you're in the hug business you ever notice had their day their pig in the mud? Did everyone pay the pig you know in the mud? 8:28 Yeah, we made them yeah, we literally like I'd had to clean them all the time because they would get it get really bad and we had some we did have some some hampshire's as well. I had like, like one of these really nice prized hampshire's, and the damn thing died when it touched concrete like it was it was a carrier of what they call a stress gene. And one of my big contributions to the hog community is that I donated him to science instead of eating him 9:00 After he died, you get a tax write off for that or something. I 9:04 don't you know what I think we did, but if they actually they've cured they've bred most of that out there. 9:09 Yeah. And you can't eat them unless you cause its death. Right? If it does that on its own, you gotta 9:15 take there's any rules on 9:19 that to show up live to the budget, 9:22 whatever it sounds delicious. So if 9:24 you hit by a car, I think that seeing well we don't want to know how the sausage made, you know, no pun intended. 9:29 Who knows we might get back into that action today and kind of talking about cured meats as well as we go through here. But you've already heard our guests today. So today is our guests. We've got Steve Coombs. Steve is all over the place. He knows about pigs. He knows about bourbon. He's been a writer for bourbon Plus, he's also an author. He's been a contributing writer for bourbon and banter. So Steve, welcome to the show. 9:49 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 9:50 Yeah, so I mean, we kind of talked a little bit there but let's let's kind of talk about some of your your bourbon cred. You know, how did how did you get into actually start writing and kind of Knowing and exploring the spirits world, 10:02 I always call this the confession moment in that I was probably 4748. before somebody got she was the tourism director in Bardstown. And I was down there doing a story for Southern Living magazine, y'all remember Don crystal? Oh, yeah, Don, Don said, we pulled up to heaven Hill. She said, Steve Coombs, you get out of this car right now go inside and do that tasting said you're not going to do an article on my town without tasting some bourbon and believe it or not honest truth, it really clicked that day. It was funny that 92 proof larceny lit my mouth on fire to the point of numbness. And I mean, and now we're drinking barrels, barrel strength, dry, you know, it's no big deal. So I got hooked on it literally just because of the culture. And of course, watching Fred, Fred and I worked many years ago together and seeing what it did for his career and becoming attracted to the characters in the business. My gosh, I mean, I've written about the culinary business for 30 years and never had Have I found such a concentration of friendly characters in one single business? And you especially talking about how rough it was in the wine industry, you know how snobs were in that like you didn't want any more involvement with that the low ego part of this businesses just you know gold for writers don't think yeah, 11:15 I mean the the characters are amazing. I remember that time in your career you You called me I've really how did you get here? How did you do that and all that and I and it for me, this has always been easy because of the of the people and at the time, you were like thinking about, you know, teetering with tequila a little bit. Remember I was and I still love it. But it's a whole country away. 11:38 And here we live in the country of bourbon country, and it's right here and you can drive to barks down to 15 minutes and be interviewing the geniuses in the business or Frankfurt or, you know, Larkspur, 11:49 one of the great things that you've done is that a lot of people come into, into in bourbon and they just, they kind of repeat the same stories. You know, not a lot Have people you know, try to go outside of what's already been done. And you've kind of you've done that. And I've been telling you for a long time that people want to be, you know, learn more about ham and the pairings of it and now you're doing seminars on it and everything. So how did that how did that start? How did you develop this whole new platform that really no one's explored Really? And this ties back to you? Hopefully you remember the answer to this gotta stop this kiss fest over Yeah, 12:27 it is. Yeah, all right 12:30 later, but let me let me say this. he mentored me 15 years ago when we really started he was your supervisor. He said your light just like today? No, I'm kidding. 12:40 I'm totally kidding. 12:41 I was always on time. You were I told him that the company didn't really tolerate that crap and you still ended up military and you just show up on time? 12:47 Yeah, that was that was back when I was still falling a little bit my military code now I'm 10 minutes late to everything cuz I just don't care. Fred. Fred 12:54 called me in July of what was it? 2014. You said that a publisher called Do about doing a book on country ham? That's right. And you said I don't know anything about the subject but I have a feeling I know someone who does. And he called me and he said call the publisher and see if this will work out for you. And I wound up writing that was my is my It was my first book country ham, a southern tradition of hogs salt in smoke, which came out the year after that. And so by then I'd already begun enjoying bourbon and I'm tasting it just like we're gonna taste today. It was late night it was it Believe it or not, sounds so fake, but it's really true is midnight, I was editing the book and sipping it and tasting it with this. Oh my gosh, this works really well together. 13:39 Yeah, it's a match made in heaven. 13:41 Oh, exactly. In and that's really where it kind of clicked. But Jay Denham, who is one of the great cures and Kentucky who's moved back to Cincinnati, had come to me, we're friends. We're talking ham and he said, you know, we should do a big whiskey and hand pairing some time and somehow or another led to the bourbon classic. And we did One with have not had been hell I'm sorry Jim Beam. And it was a hit from then. And ever since I've been doing a lot of these tastings My gosh, we've got six books already this year through March out of town. And it's a lot of fun to spread the gospel of both I mean, pork gets a bad name the United States and this is this is really good stuff that we don't try today. The other other white man and he is really really read me forgot that tagline. Yeah, so horrible. I kinda want to rewind it back to you even a little bit more here. So kind of talk because you were you were a chef previously in your life too, right to kind of talk more about your culinary background. So I my mother was a good Southern cook but never did understand restaurant food until I had to start paying my tuition at St x and my parents said you know, times are a little tight you boys need to get some better jobs if you're gonna keep going to say next pay for it. So I start working and fine dining. And it was the restaurant that really gave Louisville its own restaurant boom was called Casa goes on. It's long since gone. But that was the first place that I tasted really, really good fresh fish, real asparagus, Hollandaise, all these kinds of things. And I realized that was wired for the culinary industry. didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated college and was stuck watching the chef's and thought that looks interesting. I'll try that. I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer, but I was an absolute terrible manual typewriter typist, mine was the last class at St x in 1982 that use true manual typewriters. And the best I ever did was 32 words a minute. And that wasn't gonna fly at a newspaper. About five or so years later, I got a laptop. It was an IT WAS AN NTC multi sink if anybody remembers it, you guys are toddlers 15:43 weighed 11 and a half 15:44 pounds when that one had like a real floppy like the five and a 15:48 half inch floppy? No, not that 123 and a half no hard drive. And that was the first time that I ever discovered that word processing allows you to correct your mistakes and like well maybe I can do this thing after all. And then so I started writing about the rest Strong industry that was 1991 I still do it not nearly as much because of, you know, publications like yours and, and I'm really digging the spirit scene but to be in it this long and have gotten to travel to really neat places in the world, just writing about food has been a treat and I'm in a food town. So it's been a good career. I let me let me add something to this. He was the editor in chief of pizza today. And then he later was the editor, editor of a website called pizza marketplace. And Steve was a god in pizza around the world. And if you think about pizza, it's like its own sounds delicious. Anyway. 16:44 Steve likes too skinny to be like, doing all this food cookies, but 16:47 he would he would write about these like pizza dough throwing contests and it'd be like Italy versus United States or Canada and that was going on when you're there, man. And it's just it was just it was fun. For me from a career perspective, that was the first time I had ever seen anyone cover a beat very uniquely, and that I've never told you this, but the way that you own pizza gave me a lot of like motivation, you know, to, you know, to discover, you know, in that or in the early times in my career to find what I could like your neck hat, find my niche like you did. And like, he was a god and pizza. If you Google Steve Coombs, you know, we put the quotation marks around it, and then pizza, you'll find a lot of his old stuff and it's beautiful. I kind of want to talk about both. I know 17:41 I kind of talk about pizza just for a second. So kind of talk about like, how do you judge a pizza like in your mind when you were going into judge a pizza like what how does that how does that work? 17:50 there? It's It's the last contest that I did for a long time was in Columbus, that client I was telling you about that I had been up there was the North Custom was a minute American pizza contest can't recall but we judge it on crest quality Christmas. You would look at what you know the rim of the crest which at the time is called the corny God or the cornice. And you'd look for the texture of the dough. You judge it on the the flavor of the sauce how it presents itself well with cheese you don't want to slide off. That's a problem. He looked at the ratio of toppings with sauce and crust. And when you look at the marketability of it is this thing really something that would sell in a in a pizza restaurant or do the guy just make it up on his way in and then do you do thumbs up sideways? Thumbs thumbs down? There wasn't there was there were 38 judges in this contest to manage you know, the volume of pizzas that were coming through. So you really did have to have a rigorous pizza quickies now it's a bookies. Yeah, we could Yeah, yeah. So it was it was pretty rigorous judging, and I'd seen a similar system in Italian I'm sorry in Italy, but uh, it's basically based on what you know, making the Italians win. What's their system What style do you prefer? Like? 19:03 Okay, I really do. 19:04 Yeah, me Neapolitan, New York. Go neck and neck. Yeah. And I like that salt mine like a Pete not pizza. Taco foldable floppy. 19:11 Yeah, there seems to be a trend right now of people bashing Chicago style pizza saying it's not really pizza. It's just like a big like a lasagna. Yeah, it's 19:20 Are you in that? Are you No, not at all. That that's it's a derivative of an Italian version of pizza called torta pasqual Lena which means Easter tart or torte. And it was basically you know, the deep dish and they would put another layer of crust over the top and it was it was like kind of like we will roll out a big lasagna for celebratory event. And and that's the way it was treated. It wasn't the Italians don't see pizza as a slice after slice thing. Like we eat it here. I mean, we're committed. These dudes have had an appetizer, some wine, the little bit of pizza, then, you know something afterward. We look at Pizza as a whole meal sometimes our meal. Yeah, no. So 20:01 kind of goes back to that old saying like, any pizza can be a personal pain if you want to try harder. Yeah. 20:06 Yeah, yeah. So 20:09 they would look at that at a pizza that size and say, Man, that's for 10 people. 12 people, you know, and we look at it sometimes they will you get two friends. Yeah. 20:22 All right pizza pursuit come to you in 2021 Yep. All right. So let's let's kind of head and kind of dive in here with with what we have in front of us. So kind of Tell me Tell us a little bit about like what you brought today and variations and why you chose this. 20:34 So we have a couple of hams before us today. And I like to focus on people who use the very breeds that Fred was talking about having raised years ago. Heritage breed hogs because the quality of the meat is higher. The fat is much more present. It's better marbled, there's a better cap like this area here is called and you get a much better balance of flavor and texture. encoding a lot of the things that we talked about with bourbon but only presented in a solid form. I also when I did the book several years ago, I really got to taste a lot of country ham and these specific cures are the one that I ones that I really like to use in presentations. I have found that their meat tastes best with whiskey out of you know many others, partly because of the fat partly because of the complexity that's gained in aging just like bourbon. 21:26 Yeah, I was about to ask like how what what the rigorous process of testing all that was like to be able to figure out exactly what would pair well 21:33 and what no more rigorous and you guys sitting at the bar, just tasting lots of different things and lugging it somewhere in your memory or Notepad. It's just tasting and tasting, tasting and tasting and think it through. It takes it again like bourbon, a little goes a long way you don't need a ton of country hand three ounces, a country hand would give you your full RTA dose of salt, so you don't need much of it. But I've really gotten to where I'm very fond of this first hand nearest us is from the hammer it in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. This is a guy who his name is Bob woods and he's the one that coined my favorite phrase that he used in presentations and he said, Steve, country ham Ain't nothing but hillbilly prosciutto that's what it is. A traditional ham is cured basalt only a country ham is cured with salt and sugar and various other peppers if you like but that's basically the difference 22:26 now these particular pigs you talked about that are worth or they spent a specific diet or they just like you know, in Italy I've seen you know, the swine are fed like a corns only and like massage Do you know? sure that's the procedure department hawks, but they do like to let him get out and free range and did you guys or did you have to keep them in pens or it varied? 22:49 You know, there were some breeds that we would like kind of roam Chester hogs were ones that we would let roam around. You could kind of trust them and they were diggers. They route the hell out They were real readers. 23:02 Very what's rude or mean? Guys? You gotta understand. 23:05 They stay with their nose. I'm gonna say slay 23:07 their noses into the ground to get at grubs and such. Right, 23:09 right. Yeah. So they and they also like to get a nice cool spot to get underneath there. the Berkshires were runners. And so like, if you let them out, there's a pretty good chance that coyote would get it, you know, because they would go out in the woods or something. And they do rocks for really, they were just kind of lazy. They didn't really want to do anything. So even if you open the pin up, they'd be like, yeah, there's a lot out there and I got this water bucket. We're good. 23:35 I love the accent do rocks. Because here in Kentucky me Derek now. Yeah, same spelling, 23:41 just like him. Oh, and and Jim. Oh, well. 23:44 What's fascinating about that is that we would buy hogs from all over the all over the country. You know, because we were competitive. We were showman we were competitive, you know, trying to win jackpot hog shows and stuff. And you go to you we'd go to Illinois, which Illinois had like For a long time, they had like the best genetics for hampshire's and everybody was trying to get a little bit of Hampshire in their in their breeding processes. And they would you would go there you couldn't even understand and they'd say hag, you know, the different enunciations of the breeds? It's fascinating you can it's one of the few kind of light words where you can tell where someone's from, based on how they pronounce breeds. Yeah. And if you look at all they're all most of the of the breeds come from like some kind of European You 24:33 know, when did when you said free range so like, I'm trying to think like a, you know, a cow, like if you have grass fed beef or versus like corn fed corn fed, like much more fatter, like, more flavorful for me anyways, whereas you get grass fed, it's kind of more grainy, kind of earthy kind of flavors, is that do they do the similar things with pigs or? 24:52 Absolutely, I mean, you can you can tell the difference and it just tastes this against some neutral pork sometimes if you cured it, and you do. If we didn't have that diet to begin with, it's not going to influence the meat 25:05 in a thing to that they do with with all animals in, it's very prevalent amongst swine is that they actively add antibiotics because these things are always getting sick. You know, if one of them gets, you know, some kind of flu or some kind of cold, it could wipe out an entire herd or a farrowing house, which has all the piglets in it and you you lose your entire investment so that a lot of these farmers will actively add antibiotics into the feed. And so like when when you hear someone talking about free gain free range or natural or a lot of that means is that they're getting a feed that is not as you know, doped up if you will, and also like they're able to see 25:52 the mo corn thing for you know, hang their hat on that you know, but does it make a difference in the you know, antibiotics versus not any biotics with the meat flavor. 26:01 I've never heard anybody yeah say whether it just always I think it's a no better than I sure 26:07 I think a lot of that also too when you look at this a lot of like ham and sausages is about the processing. So very few people are actually are actually just getting the you know, getting the getting the meat from the hog, you know slicing it and cooking two of them, you know the same way everyone's doing a sauce or they're doing a special cure. It's very it's not like before you can cut you get two steaks, slap it on there, cook it up, and you can tell you know, it's very it's very different with this because much of the art is in the curing and I'm fascinated to me. I'm very fascinated with the art of curing because we go into warehouses and Kentucky, you know, bourbon warehouses like will it and you can see these little, you know, hams just kind of in the rafters. We won't talk about that. 27:00 Alright, we'll see you later. So 27:01 yeah, I want to talk about Yeah, no, I have my opinion on that. 27:05 Well, let's go ahead we'll come back Let's taste I don't know let's let's definitely taste I kind of want you to kind of talk us through, you know what, what we have and like what we're pairing it with. We already talked about what we what we have and then we went on, despite what your brothers 27:16 told you. So what are we left or so let's go with the front one, the one closest to you. This is from the hammer. This is an 18 to 20 month old hand it's called a tin Shuto. So I'm like Fred. I like to hold it up. I like to see the marbling in it. Oh wow, I've never done a efficient Oh wow. 27:33 Can you imagine being do i mean i don't know if I've ever gone to a restaurant and then like I never seen anyone, 27:38 anybody. I don't do that in a restaurant. They bring a light to this and make me a flashlight. 27:42 That smell I mean, I guess like I'm not using 27:44 this particular ham has huge Parmesan cheese note to me, but it also has that very Porky note that barnyard note that I love Parmesan cheese is definitely there on Yeah, for sure. And it's like to lay it right on my tongue. 27:56 I've also I don't think I've ever gone through and like tried to I mean, dude, I'm assuming since you do this and you judge you try to do the palate tasting and trainings like it's the same way you do with a bourbon you're sitting there you're looking at the color you're looking and you're actually smelling it you're nosing it the same way you would do with a whiskey or something like that. 28:12 Believe it or not the way they judge ham contests you don't see the internal part of the ham it's never cut to look at it is in Italy they typically use a horse's cannon bone and they kind of sharpen it down to a point in they stick it into the near the H bone of the ham to see if the thing is properly cured because you know instantly about that aroma that comes out a stick it in the stick through their nose and say yea or nay. And that's one of the criteria for judging here in Kentucky is is that thing properly cured and so you put it in a couple of parts of it the Beavis and Butthead joke in the butt face of the ham. And so they're checking on aroma. They're checking on appearance, how it's trimmed. Typically a country ham is smoked so that The way that is colored is important they don't want they don't want to just super mahogany like Western Kentucky cares will do that sometimes it's not 29:09 a favorable the typical to use mahogany wood for no or they use all different okay oak is really common 29:15 I'm sorry hickory Hickory, Hickory. Okay. So yeah but it's much more superficial than you would think they'll probably palpate it you know smash around some but it's not nearly as intense as you might think. But taste that with the toasted which is on the left you know it's gonna love This is Lauren when she added this guy's like smacking our lips we're gonna do and 29:36 she's always never do that. 29:39 I sound effects 29:40 is if this didn't have enough brown sugar on its own. It's really bumps it up. Andrea Wilson at makers not talk about when we do these pairings we want to compliment, contrast or elevate when we make a pairing. Compliment means they go well together. Contrast means they make each other interesting. Elevate means each makes the other better. And I think this is a 30:05 pairing appearing that elevates so why go with the the toasted on this one? What was the? What was the significance behind that one just 30:13 it's a simple approachable whiskey. I mean, it's it Who doesn't like toasted? It's not my favorite of the mixtures line but I really really like it. And it just pairs well with food. I've paired with a lot of foods and you think you guys can jump in on this with me, but for some reason, their line the mixtures line pairs better than any and I'm thinking that there are two things that are noticeably different from everything else we've done. And that's low barrier entry proof and low proof in the bottle. And for some reason that seems to result in a really good pairing food. I don't know if you've ever thought that through But 30:51 no, I mean, I guess with alcohol overpower. Yeah, I would say that's probably 30:56 but I think everyone's different to you know, some people have you know, burned their power. What's out they need that barrel proof all the time. I wanted to ask you a question about about like the the the the sliced country ham always feels sticker to me then prosciutto and I when I was in I was in Italy and I was at a price Judo place and they had me go up go behind and cut they they let me cut and I used actually did the bone and when I cut they were like you're too thick Get out of here. So it wasn't that thick it was like this but so why why what's the difference between like you know the standards of the thickness? 31:40 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to our spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan Kaiser his family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch was stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family Traditional life any opened to bar spirits in 2012. 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In United States where country ham is most prevalent people don't eat it and people I say eat it raw No not yet rots cured it is chemically and physically transformed into a shelf stable product so it's cured it's not raw it My mother was one of many who just abused ham country ham and would cook it to you probably had it Ryan in Barcelona baseball leather consistency and intensify the salt it was just overwhelming absolutely no fun but when I did this book I can't tell you how many people how many cures did not like it like this. They they thought that this is kind of like it with a little red add gravy or whatever and like this is the best expression Yeah, this is the barrel proof barrel strength expression of their product 33:50 or essentially throw it in a sandwich with tomato and you know let us in pickles. 33:54 Well done like well yeah done like that. I've enjoyed it too. It Nancy nuisance place I think I posted a photo A couple days ago of it but yeah Fred This is the shark eatery cut that really shows to me respects the the product and its natural best and did you cut it with I not like you're talking about like off the the hammer itself I'd still be doing it to try to get these things done you got to be an expert or an expert to do that I can do it but I'm slow I have a commercial slicer in my house. Oh 34:24 nice and then I know what I'm getting at Costco next commercials 34:29 I'll help you find one on the on the US market will be a lot better go where one out with a ham 34:33 I got a question after you cut yes or no because it's cured do you have to do anything to like seal it to preserve it or how do you preserve it after you've already cut into it? 34:42 Well, before we started you probably saw me taking it out of those vacuum packages that just do that but 34:47 oh you and I'm talking about the actual whole ham. What do you do with that after? 34:52 I like to break it down into as large sections of muscle as I can both to make it easier to slice But to do is you say get it into a vacuum package and and seal it that way so that the more muscle integrity you have the better it's going to be preserved I can keep them in a refrigerator or a freezer for a long long period of time and they're fine 35:13 What size do these typically come in when say you want to go buy like a hammer 35:17 so a country ham depending on the maker or the cure, I should say starts out at about 20 to 23 pounds green weight is Joe recall that to green that seems to be industry and industry time. And what's that? What's that mean though? It means fresh. Yeah, fresh 35:35 jiggling way so it's basically like trying to buy like an eight ounce filet or an eight ounce steak and then you cook it and then it 35:40 but that's been that's probably been dry aged for a little while so that this this thing was only King you know, 48 hours ago. 35:46 All right then. So remember my role and stray from butter dogs. It was just it was raising them. Put them on a truck and say goodbye. Give me the check. Yeah, once they were done, I was don't name them. I did name a couple of 35:59 yeah But But yeah, they'll they'll shrink to about if they start out at 22. There'll be ready it, you know, at about a year at 17 pounds so they lose. That's their Angel share, you know them losing that moisture to intensify the flavors that are inside the ham and to trigger I'm trying to think of the garden it's an enzymatic reaction that that really makes the meat shelf stable. All that works together and it works together because the place we live just like bourbon is so good here because of our climate. The same thing happens to hams that you know that once you hang them outside and let them be subject to the weather. It's amazing. Now there's not that many places in the world that you can do this. 36:44 Well I've never I've always wanted to get into like curing my own ham or something like that. Because I know a few people and a few different bourbon groups and that's like one of their kind of like side projects or side hobbies assisting 36:55 at 89 guy yeah, he's got some good ones going 36:58 yeah. So with the One 37:00 of those in my refrigerator home All right, 37:02 perfect. So I mean, so talk, I mean, because I don't even know like, even the process of how you would even start doing that, hey, you'd have to require the leg, but be like, what, what's that? What's the next step in that process? 37:13 It's it's pretty crude, frankly, it's, you trim the trim away certain parts of the hand to make it look good. And you rub the hell out of it with carrying salt. You know, I mean, you're sticking in every little nook and cranny because you want to get that salt in there to penetrate to the bone and push the way with and push the water out essentially. As cures would say it's a race to the bone if if, if bacteria gets to the bone of the hand first, you've lost your ham if if salt gets there first you've got a cured ham. And what it does, basically is created by getting the water out it starves the bacteria, that's what they need to thrive. And that's all the salt does is pushes it out. And of course flavors it very deal 37:58 to I just did the second premise. I'm sorry I jumped ahead 38:01 I couldn't I did it too oh my god it's perfect oh my god i mean it was it was funny like going into this you know I have a I have a little bit of I don't want to say a criticism but I have a little bit of that that kind of I hold back a little bit be like oh can you really pair like ham and bourbon together holy shit yeah you can 38:20 say that's so fun about this is to see that happen and people you know the scales fall from their eyes they go really 38:27 you can do this well I mean it's in I think it kind of just gives you a little bit more you know a benefit to hear to say like okay, you were able to show me like for me to sit there and say like, I don't even know where I would go and find a different kinds of handy and start experimenting with around here. But if I did, and I came down here my basement I started pulling, you know, Jefferson's reserve, I started pulling Booker's I pulled you know, whatever, you name it across the line and tried to figure out like, how did these pair I don't really know if I'd be able to do that. So I guess when you're doing this, what are some of those new wants his or flavors in a ham or a bourbon that you're trying to pair with a particular Wang Kenny. I wish I could French it up and give you some fascinating answer. But it is mostly trial and error. But But the key 39:14 attribute that I want from the ham to actually from a country ham is fat content to coat the palette and smoke a little bit of smoke in there. Salt is everywhere it doesn't matter the to AI know how to cut the the hand correctly so choose correctly. So really it's it's fat. And one of the virtues of a whiskey that pairs well is that it cleanses the palate. Yeah, and and this this so what we tasted here just a second ago that Fred and Kenny cheated on wisely. was a 24 month old Broadbent country ham. Yeah, broadband done from a Berkshire hog. Yeah, Burke charade. Yeah. And it's just as there's no app That's it. This is one the the the company's won the Kentucky State Fair country ham championship 18 times out of 53 or so. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild a newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started.As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon, fuel your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're gonna find this book on Kindle, Amazon and as always on my website, Sam Knickerbocker calm.Welcome back to fuel your legacy. And this week, we have an awesome guest. It's back in the springtime of 2020. So looking forward to moving on in life hopefully you guys reportFirst Quarter goals nailed down and you're just running. Because the first quarter goes away fast. I mean, I remember 2019 and it just ended before it got started. I feel like and that happens often in our lives. So remember to stay focused on your legacy and what are you doing daily to fuel that is our guest today. His name is Todd Palmer. Palmer is an executive coach, keynote speaker, renowned thought leader and author, CEO. He's just done a ton of different things in his life. something unique about him. If you're watching the video of this on YouTube, then you can see this but if you're just listening on Facebook, or not Facebook, on podcasts, you can't see this, but he has a lot of baseball memorabilia, and I'll let him identify what a lot is. I know there's a level ofyou don't want people coming down to your house and knowing what's inside your house. But he has a lot of it like more items than most of the people inIn this have earned in their lifetime dollars. So a significant amount.This is, to say the least. And that's just a hobby, right that has nothing to do with what he does for work, nothing to do with necessarily his businesses, but it's just a passion of his and I think that's the reason I'm bringing that out as it's important to identify your passions and learn what passions are yours that you're doing just because you want to do them. And then what other things are you doing in your life because there's a lot of things that I do just because I love doing them. And so make a list of that for you and say how often do I do these things that I do just because I love doing them? And are you allowing yourself to get that fulfillment daily or weekly or monthly? How often is that fulfillment coming in so Todd, thank you so much for joining here on on the fuel your legacy podcast? We're excited to hear all of your crazy crazy mindset coachings you know, helping us become better individuals, people, fathers, husbands, wives, daughters, sons, the whole bit business owners. Go ahead andGive us an introduction of who you are, where you came from, really what that transition looked like or that gap from when you went from being kind of in something you thought was going to fulfill you didn't quite hit the mark and transitioning into something where you found more fulfillment.You know, thank you so much for having me here. Today, I'm excited about being able to talk about the importance of legacy, the importance of following something that's going to fulfill us. There's a big difference between the spike of happiness You know, we can have a piece of chocolate feel pretty happy, but to create a life by design that has immense satisfaction, by the time our time. the time we're done here on earth is a very important thing to me. So I grew up kind of a quick down and dirty about me. I grew up on a farm in mid-Michigan, I went to a very small High School at 42 kids in my graduating class.At one of my first big life decisions was an opportunity to go play Division Three basketball, or go to the local community college on a talent scholarship. ForWriting in journalism because I thought I wanted to be a writer, I thought I was gonna be a newspaper reporter to have a passion at the time for writing. And the first flip for me was when I once I got to the college, and they were essentially compensating me with my free tuition to write, I discovered I didn't like it as much anymore. It's like when it was it went from being a hobby and a passion in the academic pursuit to something I was actually like responsible and accountable for there was a big shift.Upon graduating from college, I ended up teaching at a university for three years. And I love that work the light bulb moments of the students and to be able to work with someone to help them had those breakthroughs and understand what was very important to me. Right around the same time, I'd gotten married, and I had a son. And the marriage did not work out for a lot of reasons, which would you probably make a great podcast for someone who has to deal with the joys and sorrows of divorceand from that relationship,I had a son and I had custody of my son, I started raising my son from when he was from the age of two years old. And I was 24.I was working in corporate America, I was doing sales, I was doing sales for products. I was doing sales for services, like staffing and employee leasing. And I just realized for me that in or I couldn't live the life I wanted to as a single dad, going to school, getting my master's degree to continue to teach at night,as well as working during the day and wanting to be a good father. So I made one of the next big life decisions, I had to choose what was my number one priority in life. And I decided, for me, my number one priority was my son,which were then the Epiphany off of that was I couldn't be a good corporate employee, for me, because I wanted to be there for all those once in a lifetime moments from the first soccer game to the first field trip of school. And so I started the journey of trying to figure out what else I can do.With my abilities and skills, recognizing that I couldn't be all things to all people all the time.Around that time,entrepreneurship was just trying to get a little bit of traction in the world Entrepreneur magazine was out ink magazine and I was a voracious reader, reading all these stories of these people started in bootstrap their companies. And I knew at a time another group of people who had started in bootstrap their company, and they were doing what I thought was very well, they they, they, they weren't very high very quickly, and they ended up crashing because they were selling on price. And they didn't build any margin in the business. And they went out but they had a very, three to four-year run. That was I thought, from the outsider's perspective, very impressive. And I thought, huh, like maybe people were listening today identify that, well, they can do that. I can do that.So I wrote a business plan. a business plan was for $140,000 to start a temporary help company in Metro Detroit to plan around to the banks. And crazily enough, the bank said to me, Well, let's say you're a single father, you'dJust came out of a divorce, you have a ton of debt, and we're not going to listen to anybody at all. And it was very humbling. But I just kept talking to people and networking and having conversations about it. And I went and had lunch with an ex-boss of mine who had done well. And he said, Well, no, I'm not going to give you $140,000 Well, here's what I will do. I'm gonna challenge you to come back to me and tell you what the bare number you need is to start your company because I want to invest in you, the company secondary.And that was hugely empowering to get that message from a trusted older advisor to say I believe in you, the planet secondary. So I came back. As for $15,000, I started my company to a company called diversified industrial staffing. And we provided temporary help in Metro Detroit. And I went into that industry because I had worked in the industry in the past, so I knew how to do it, and I saw gaps in the marketplace that I thought I could fill in by day 72 we were profitable. So I gave myself about a 90-day window by day soReady to turn the corner, started hiring employees started growing and scaling the business, but not knowing what I needed to know.Flash forward nine years later, we were you know, we're having some highs and some lows in that timeframe, but doing okay2006 arrives. By September of that year, I was $600,000 in debt. I was two months away from running out of all of my money, including losing the house that my son and I lived in. I was deeply depressed, I was suffering from massive imposter syndrome because I thought I had to be all things to all people all the time. I had a toxic and dysfunctional culture. In my organization. I had employees that I didn't believe in they based on being poor performance of the company. I don't blame them. They didn't believe me. And I hired a coach on a credit card. And we work together. My mindset was awful. I was feeling very defeated by the life I was feeling verymyself my self-criticism, the IDIa bitty negative committee in my head was meeting daily telling me how awful I was doing. And I had a lot of mindset issues going through that. So we talked, we laid out a plan to turn around the company. And from that plan, I ended up having to make some difficult decisions. Because I had a breach of culture and a breach of trust within the organization. I didn't trust anyone who worked for me. So I walked in on September 9 of 2006. And I fired my entire company. So kind of a recap for the listener, I have $600,000 in debt, two months away from going to have all my money taken out of the additional expense of a coach. And I fired everybodythrough a lot of work through a lot of mindset shifting, such as every day, I had to do five positive things because my mindset was so incredibly negative. And I had to report it every day to my coach. What did I do? What like day three, I didn't report it. It's five o'clock phone rings, so I didn't get your text. What you do today. I didn't do anything. I didn't go in.And he read me the riot act. Like this is your business. You said you wanted to fix it.Don't waste my time. If you can't get out of bed by 905 you call me. That's my job. My job is to champion you through this. Because I told you if you work with me, we were into this thing around. I told you, you would not fail. I can only do that work. If you work with me. You've got to communicate and I chose not to. So I did five positive things before going to bed that night and resume the process started hiring people. Game of the process to hire for DNA, not for resume. I was always hiring state staffing industry people in the past. And I recognized that I had to shift how I did everything in the business, the coach was teaching don't just focus on revenue, you've got to focus on the margin business.Just about that time the recession kicks in.And we make the Inc 5000 is one of America's fastest-growing companies for the first six times. So to go from being $600,000 in debt to making the Inc 5006 times was not something I'd ever in my wildest dreams. Thinkhappened. Andfast forward, we pay off all the debt, they find the inflection point in the marketplace where we have increased demand and a diminished supply of people, we fill that gap in the center. In that filling of that gap, we're able to charge more to the customer for what we're doing. Get Paid faster, which pays off the debt quicker. And boom, they're there. There we go. We make the Inc 5000. And it's something thatit's it's just an incredible guy. It's such a great team working with me at the time, people were all focused on going in the right direction. We were doing the 90-day plans. We were doing your annual planning. But you know about five, six years ago, it dawned on me just because I could do something well, didn't mean I had a true love and a passion for the work.And it's funny, it was kind of like the emperor has no clothes syndrome. My whole staff knew it before I admitted to myself and I put together a plan to exit the business.Just two years ago, I started extraordinary advisors where I go around the globe telling people the story I just told your audience and talking about how you know, we have to work on our mindset. To grow your organization to grow your business, you have to grow yourself as a leader first. And, and now I've been fortunate. I've spoken in Toronto, I've spoken South Africa, I've spoken in Monterrey, Mexico, I've spoken all around the United States telling these stories about how entrepreneurs, there's a process to shift your mindset. There's a process to create a life by design.And I just had, you know, I just completed a one year engagement with a client, for example, he said, and the first year I've worked with Todd, my revenues have grown 70% my profits have grown by a factor of five x. So 500% growth in profits is not a bad thing. And he concludes the testimonial video I say, and I love my life, and I love my job.That's now become my purpose and my passion in life. And what it takes me back 30 years ago when I was teaching itThe university in the light bulb moments the students would have when I'm on stage, and someone has a light bulb moment by something I've shared with them. It's so soul-fulfilling. When a client sends something to me and they lean into those uncomfortable moments of, I don't know, my business is going to make it and they plug into my confidence in them. And then they turn the business around, they do the work, I just provide them some guidance. It's so incredibly rewarding that, you know, that I don't ever see myself retiring from coaching and speaking.I love that. It's, it's so cool. I'm excited to dive into a lot of these notes. But I think that that is the that's the journey of life and we are going to face aspects of this journey. And the question is, are we conscious of the journey or are we just allowing the journey to happen without any consciousness of what's happening? And one of the things you said just might work backward here. Like all the things that I love about thisBut before it there, there was a time So have you ever heard of Have you heard of Steve siebold? I have not. Okay, so Steve siebold and he has a book called The Hundred 77 mental toughness Secrets of the world-class. And, and if I remember correctly, his company had the contract with the Navy SEALs to do all the mental toughness coaching for them, like, okay and quality coach, the navy seals. So, for like 20 years his company had that contract. But one of the things that in this book he has like, his thoughts or his thoughts on one of the these hundred and 77, mental toughness secrets, and then he has an action step one of the action steps is to go and ask five people who are close closest to you, and basically who, what they see are your greatest gifts and why. Like, what is the top five reasons that you are guaranteed to succeed as anindividual. I love that's a great exercise. I've written this down. I've got the I will have this on my phone by the end of the day. Yeah, it's awesome. Anyways, I was just thinking, how often are we walking around our lives. We think we're good at something, we're succeeding whatever. And the other people around us, they're either they're too scared to tell us because we're in a position of authority over them. Or they just simply like, they don't want to derail us. They don't want to dissuade us from what we're doing. But really like, everybody around you can recognize that you're not in your passion and you have these very unique skills that if you just use those skills, to serve more people, you'd be happier because that's what like they can see that that's what lights your heart on fire. They don't have to like being told it, they can see that when you're performing a few simple activities. That's what gets you going. Everything else is the mundane stuff you don't enjoy but when you do those two activitiesWe don't accept it ourselves. because like you said, we want to be that everyone that everything man. Well, I think it's it's important for that. So going back to the people, you surround yourself with them, I'm part of a group called to the entrepreneur's organization. I've got a forum that I've been in the same form for 17 years. And when I told my forum mates, it is thinking of leaving the recruiting business and starting coaching, advising business. They were all for it because they said, You're the best coach on our table. You've given us the most knowledge and give back and learning. And ultimately what we did, we did an exercise. So similar. Again, I got to get the Siebel book, where we took a look at how do we define success in our 20s and 30s. And it was typically and which is nothing wrong with this. And listen, I'm a capitalist first and foremost, anybody should work for free. But the piece became like we used to define success as money houses, a wealth of a financial perspective, that was the definition of success. And then I saw a quote from Tony Robbins, and it shifted everything for me. So nowMy version of success to tie into your point is a success is doing what I want where I want with whom I want to do it with as often as I want to go do it. So if I'm, you know, I, I've been working a lot with some some students, and I've got a student that I worked with, he's signing his national letter of intent on Monday for baseball. He's going to go he's got a four year guaranteed ride to get his education. And I've worked with him on mindset. And it baseball is a very, he's a pitcher, and it's very complicated sport for him to get his his athletic abilities off the charts is getting his mindset caught up with it. And I've worked with him as a favor to his dad for free. That is such a rewarding thing because I'm doing what I want. I'm helping this young man, who I really think is a great kid, and he just needs some guidance, where I want we typically go have lunch and I'm happy to pay for it. When I want whatever. It's helping him be helping him at 17 create a life by design. And if he never makes pro ball, that's okay. But he's getting his education paid for he's gonna learn so much in this process and itThat work for me, just fills me up. So whether it's a 1617 year old kid, or it's a 50 year old CEO that, that success for me, but it's so different than what I thought was in my 20s and 30s, when success was gonna turn out to be, yeah, and it's something that that, as you mentioned, other people saw on you before you were alluding to. Exactly, exactly. And, and that's why it's so important to surround yourself. For me. I want to surround myself with people. It's funny because one of my core values is candidness, or candor, rather. And it's important for me to surround myself with people who are willing to just tell me bluntly, what they think about megood or bad, because it doesn't really affect me that much as far as like, what somebody thinks. But if nobody's willing to tell me that they think I'm wrong or that they think I should be doing something different, then I'm screwed ultimately, I I naturally have a confident voice. I naturally come across as like this is fact that it served me very well to have thatThat gait and tone in my my verbiage in my in my business as a leader it serves you but it also if you don't have other strong people around you that can hold you back because then everybody just lockstep follows you rather than saying no, we needed need to do something different you're better in this other area. Let me do that. You go do what you're better. And so I love that aspect of just finding people who are willing to recognize in you your giftedness and and encourage you to chase that sooner in your life. I think that's a really excellent point. I was just with the leadership team the other day 10 leaders in the room. And the CEO had been really the elephant in the room and had was not letting his team do their jobs, because he was just overpowering. So we created a process where we will go around the room to lay out the quarterly plan. And I had leader promise that he would speak last so he could hear and solicit the best ideas that said you've got a brilliant teamYou're paying them a lot of money, and you're holding them back. And you don't even realize it. And we had a real deep dive. It was why I want their ideas. I said, you have to speak last you mean it because the power of the room will drive the organization much stronger. The power of 10 versus the power of one. So we spent a lot of time so three or four people go around the room. CEO chimes in, I'm like, stop it, stop it. But I said, explain everybody upfront that he was supposed to speak less. So then it became a running joke. What it did is it took a lot of the governor's off of the other leaders in the room, you know, the chief marketing officer, it's really an ideas. CEO, I'd never heard them because he thought he had the best ideas, change the dynamic. The business, I think is gonna just take off like a, like the hockey stick of growth, because the leader was able to subordinate his natural instinct to dominate the room because he's usually the smartest one in the room. You get the power of everybody going for because you agreed to speak last. And by the end of it, he was so thankful. He's like, Oh my gosh, this is the best thing.we've ever had people feel buoyant, they feel encouraged, they feel empowered. And basically, all I did was say yes to other ideas. Because honestly, most of them were better than my ideas. Such a such a great opportunity for him to get that feedback from the room that he could have a better organization with the power in the leadership of a bunch of people not having to rely on themselves. Yeah, absolutely. I just know for myself from a perspective of being the leader.I'm aware that I'm just pulling stuff out of my butt most of the time, like, Yeah, let's do this. And I just say it confidently and be like, okay, yeah, let's do it. It's like no, if that's not the way that we should be, like, tell me, but because nobody's offering any advice, we just do it, you know, and we either fail forward or we we launch forward, but it's so it's just a fascinating aspect of humanity, where we have to balance that and as a leader if you're leading in your family, in your faith, and in your fitness wherever your you're leading currently beaware that there's people who have ideas, there's people who have thoughts that you're probably that are probably not being expressed because of, and I hate to use the word fear, but it is a little bit of fearof rejection at the very best. And at the very worst, their fear of losing their job or something a lot worse than that. No, I would, I would say there's an additional pink elephant The room is that fear of criticism, that fear of being shut down. I mean, think about it from a from a small child's perspective, if the parent is constantly dumping on them, you know, your ideas are terrible, you, your kids are naturally born with massive curiosity. And often the parents will call a crush that within the child not even knowing it thinking safety, first, good social protocols with social behaviors, then we do that as leaders with our teams because we essentially have the final say, so we can, it's it's such an art to be able to let your team know that that there is you're free to share ideas. You're free to disagree and there will be in you don't have to worryfear of reprisal or the fear of, of being terminated because ultimately we do control whether they stay or they go, the flipside in today's economy where there are 600,000 more manufacturing jobs, for example, than there are people that fill them. It really is a candidate market. So I'm trying to get employers to recognize like, the number one reason someone leaves a company isn't money, isn't ours is it's you. It's the leader. The greatest the number one source of your next great employee, are your current employees. So if you're a good leader, you buying it and people are going to tell their friends, hey, I work at this place. I work at this place, come work with us. So the leader can shift so much by allowing that that creative tension in the room to allow others to be able to express themselves especially with millennials. I have to tell people this constantly. Millennials are part of their mindset and how they were raised is they like to be part of a team. They like to think they need to be heard, but they realize that you ultimately have the funds but they want their voice in the room. They want their voice out of the decision. They recognize itSomeone else is going to ultimately have that decision. But they want to be heard and they're willing to trade money for freedom and flexibility. So don't demand a millennial is the first one in last one out like they didn't, my generation doesn't work that way anymore. So I think there's a lot of different things that you're talking about today, they can have wide cross appeal, ultimately, for the leader to have a more enjoyable life by design. But the greatest leader can do is build other leaders by teaching them they're part of a company by design, they're able to create titles by design, they're able to do a lot of different things under the surface so that they are enjoying the work they do is that they don't enjoy working for you. They're going to go want to go someplace where they do enjoy the work and the people they work with. Yep. 100% 100%. So moving back even farther into your story, because there's a few things that again, these are key things because there's so many people who are discounting their skills, they're discounting their passions or discounting what they're good at, for multiple reasons, but in your story onhighlight just a few of them.One of them is that we we have this opinion that a hobby and a passion. If we're being compensated for it, then it's no longer fun. Like, I don't understand that honestly, like, why is it that? Like, what do you think is happening in somebody's mind that as soon as they enjoy something as soon as they're being compensated for it, they're like, yeah, this isn't worth getting paid for. I still love it. But it's not worth getting paid for, like, what's that? Why is it that when we have a demand on us, and we have an expectation put on our hobby and passion, it's no longer fun? Well, I think part of it goes into I think our brains need to have a certain place to go to to relax. hobbies are up in those places. So as you mentioned earlier that you know, I have a large sports memorabilia collection, which I do. I've been asked multiple times do I want to get into the sports memorabilia business, and I really don't love the hobby. I have a passion in the skill set for growing leaders, which isNothing to do with my hobby. So I think we as multi multi dimensional creatures on the earth, we can have lots of different hobbies. But I think we also have to figure out what what is our what is our zone of genius. My zone of genius is not autographed by zone of genius is not baseball. I happen to enjoy it. But my I think my zone of uniqueness is growing and helping leaders through my experiences and through some best practices to grow their themselves and to grow their business. I enjoyed writing, but when I felt like when I had the, the freedoms of, of creativity removed, and I was instead, I used to create my own stories at the high school newspaper, at the college newspaper, I was assigned stories and I just wasn't interested in. I remember going back even being a student. I did really well in the classes. I was really interested in the classes I just needed to get through to get out of school. I did the barest of minimum. So that's how my brain worked.No, I love that because I think that there's a recognition there that maybe not everybody's conscious of. And that is that there's, you can be good at a lot of things you can love doing a lot of things. But ultimately,that, for me, it's almost like a sense of duty. I feel like because you said, your zone of genius, right? Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes you have a zone of genius, that really isn't the thing that you received the most fulfillment from. Right. But you recognize that this is a gift that you've been given really, with the purpose to share it with the world. And so it's almost like a duty to share that gift with the world and fully express that. Wow, still have having other areas and then grow to have fun doing your zone of genius. I think I think there's some truth in that. It's interesting. So a lot. We're talking about athletes before we got on the broadcast.You know, we're in Detroit, we've got Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson, both excellent football players, what they what they talk about now that they both they both retired really early, they had many years left in their bodies to give to the game. The saying, Yeah, I enjoyed playing the game. I had an ability and a skill set that compensated me Well, I never loved playing the game. And I don't like being defined as just a football player. I want to do more with myself where you get other guys who, you know, I know. I still play competitive baseball around the country playing Michigan and play in Florida. I play in Phoenix and there are guys who love the game who are passionate about the game and do not have any ability to play the game. They just they just have no ability and they don't have that that you that gift. I think we all have gifts and I think part of is a figure out what our gift is. I've got friends who are who are excellent guitar players. And then I know people who are excellent musicians. There is a gap in their skill set. There's a gap with the marketplace.We'll pay them for, and it's getting to understand there's nothing wrong to recognize it, that self awareness comes into play. Hey, I love to play the guitar. And if someone wants to pay me to play 12 hours a day, I'd be happy to. The reality is nobody wants to pay me 12 hours a day to play the guitar. Whereas other guy can just, he's a virtual. So now if he has, if you have a virtual CIO with a passion for the hobby, a passion for the guitar passion for business, and I know serial entrepreneurs, Richard Branson's owns what 5060 companies, he loves owning businesses. What he doesn't love is he doesn't love operating the business. So again, is that Where's your zone of genius? Where's your unique contribution to the earth? And if you're, if you have a skill that you really love, but nobody really wants to pay for, but want to recognize that's a great hobby, and a great passion, but it's not something that you're able to feed your family on. Yeah, so now we're gonna go we're gonna go one step further here because I love I love where this is going. First off for you, whoever is listening, think about what is your zone of genius. What is yourgiftedness What is your one thing that that really that's what you feel you're meant to bring to this this earth and to share with with other people because I believe everything, at least for me, I try and structure my life around service, love and contribution. Like those those things are high on my list of what I want to be doing with my life are activities where I feel like I can fulfill that. But here's here's the next thing that I want the next limiting belief I find them limiting beliefs. When I'm talking with coaches, and I'm talking with different people.You were a teacher at college and you liked being a teacher you liked the seeing the light bulb go off. I love that I was one of my highest. Well, it was funny because I wasat a retreat a few months back and they asked us to write down a list of stuff that fulfills so I'm going to read a few things that are things that fulfill me and it was funny because if we contrast this list with my wife's list, and I'm doing things that fulfill meAlmost every every day, at least everything on this list happens once a month, if not more often on her list. It's like her list of stuff that fulfills her is smaller. And it also is not happening as often.Yeah, some of the things that really I love doing is leading other people's leading other people to Christ, seeing confidence come in somebody's eyes, personal development, business development, striving for excellence, seeing other people love creating transformation in people and having just conversations with random people. So I love all these, these things that I'm doing.But I used to think, well, I can't get paid for doing those things, right. And most teachers in America in America and I don't know how it is in other countries, but in America, most teachers, they just don't get paid very well. Okay, and I'm gonna I'm putting this in air quotes. If you're watching this because this is huge. People think that theyskill set. Maybe they like playing the guitar 10 hours a day or 12 hours a day. And they think, well, nobody's gonna pay me for it. And I would at least challenge it. Now, I'm not saying you have to go this route. But guess what, in my opinion, Todd is doing nothing more now than he was back then he's still teaching people. The question is, where are you trying to employ your, your giftedness or your talent or your passion? Agree? What's the venue that you're trying to do it? I have, I have clients who are teachers, and they teach at a high school at or a grade school and they get paid 30 $40,000 a year. I mean, it's just like, not very much. Then I have clients who are teaching the same exact content, but they're doing it in an online forum.And they're teaching multiple more students at once getting paid 100 plus thousand dollars a year. And the difference is where are you employing your skill? So maybe it's dancing, maybe it's being a chef, I had a guest on podcast A while back, who's a chef who has rose in the ranks in the hospital andWhat's the word? hotel industry wasn't getting paid what he wanted to get paid, stepped out of that became a just a consultant chef who would come in to an organization and reorganize the chef world in that organization, the food, the food, world, cafeteria, whatever, restaurant, and then he would move. So he was now a consultant chef rather than a salaried chef, and 10 times his income, right? So it's these smaller things is where are you actually choosing to employ your giftedness rather than, Oh, I can't make money at this. I gotta go find something else. No, find out where you can employ it. That's really going to give you the return that fits with your lifestyle. Right. One of my favorite speakers in the last 10 years is a guy named David Rendell. And he has a book called The freak factor and his whole theme, ology is what's you know, we often don't recognize the things that we get criticism for are really our unique ability. His tagline isWhat's weird makes you wonderful. And any any talks about, you know, being a case six, seven. So he's tall wherever he goes, he can't hide himself, right? And people think, wow, there's a lot of advantages to being tall. And then he talks about the disadvantages of being tall. And they talk that he part of his speech moves into talking about how he was guided by his by his his high school and college or his high school in elementary school. And he goes, I was told to, I talk too much. I have too many opinions, and I can't sit still as a kid. So those became my limiting beliefs. Now, as an adult, I get paid to talk, I get paid to move around, and I get paid to share opinions. And then they had great living. So that's that when I saw him, he blew my mind because I'm like, Oh, my gosh, the reinforcement we get is what's, you know, the things that we do are wrong or bad, you know, parents, teachers, things like that. But Dave was so wise to figure out is, what's weird makes you wonderful. So if you're someone like you're talking about who has he has skills,And abilities, your challenges and entrepreneur, your challenges, even a solo practitioners to figure out where can I apply my zone of genius, my unique abilities, which maybe other people told me 15 2030 years ago were weaknesses, which are actually strengths? And how do I apply them in a way that I'm earning the type of living that I want to earn. But the but the other part of it is you have to I found, what you're talking about is you have to be able to demonstrate a very clear return on investment for the buyer. You have, you know, I tell my clients, whatever you spend with me, you should expect to get four to six times return on investment. So that the client who just reported that they they've grown their revenue by 70%, and their profits by a factor of five x are they're thrilled they're getting 500% return on their investment with me. But that's the work that they've done. And so much of the work I've done with them was just like what you're talking about is getting them to figure out what do they do well, what do they do that nobody else in the world can do? How do they charge more for that, but still keep it cost?effective for the marketplace? And then how do they do that over and over and over and over again? Mm hmm. Absolutely. And I think that's, that's where hiring a coach can really add a lot of value into it. And so how many? Again, these are the common things that I come up against, and people are asking me, but how many people do you thinkwho have gotten to your position? Right who have reached the I'm gonna call it success, not just financial success, butoverall, in general, fulfilling their passion? How many of those people do you think started, their businesses started and they're getting the help they needed through some form of debt, whether that's credit cards, business loans, personal loans, so I'm excited when I look at protesting I don't, I'm gonna take your debt even a step further, and I'll get back to the money but but I think we have I for me, I had an internal self esteem debt. I had to prove to the world I could do this. I had to proveI was chasing a ghost. I have a client who recently shared with me that, you know, we probably broke him down against him. So why are you still so unhappy? I just wanted to prove I want to, I wanted to prove to my dad that I'm success is awesome. Let me let's set up a call with your dad. And we can talk about is my dad's been gone for 15 years. Like, wow. So he's he's now dealing with the ghost. So we have an internal debt. And what we fail to realize, I think most entrepreneurs are often self reliant. And we're rugged individualists. I know I was in this very clear in my arc of, of knowledge that that I needed coaching all the way and I had coaching and when I didn't have coaching is when I went down because I wasn't mature enough or savvy enough to have that outside person. Give me that perspective that I greatly needed. My father passed away when I was five years old, and my older brother lived across the country. So we didn't interact all the time and I'm an isolating, I think I've got this down and you are from the generation where we don't talk about our problems.anybody listening talking about your problems? You know, it's it's, there's a community of people out there that will listen. So I created my own debt. So it's almost as if you when you talk about the debt question, so I think we have an internal debt, we have an external debt, we give it to others. So if you've never seen anybody who's had battles with drugs and alcohol, they go, they have to hit what they call bottom. In order to get help. The first step is to ask for help. My journey was no different. Now my battle was with with debt in bad decisions, and self esteem, where other people deal with drugs and alcohol. But if you take a look at the behavior patterns of both categories, they're very eerily eerily similar. Entrepreneurs just focus their, their their issues on growing a business, but their disruptive behaviors with family and time and money are very classically similar. So I think to your question we all have, we all have challenges we all you know, for me, I can't work with a client until they're ready to change. My coach couldn't work with me until I was ready to change he asked me a lot of Are you ready toHave you had enough of this kind of questions we did. That was brilliant. I do that now. And the great thing about it is I've recognized and realized that I part of my life issues in life is I'm never satisfied, which makes me a lifelong learner. So I still have a coach in my life today. He's not a business coach. He's a neuroscientist, and he teaches me how my brain works. So I can stop doing the things that really drive me crazy and drive others crazy so I can do more of the things I enjoy and making others, you know, making the world a better place. So for, I think, the savvy person, the savvy entrepreneur recognizes that coaching is always needed. If you take a look at sports, Tiger Woods as a Swing Coach, Mike trout has a hitting coach, Nolan Ryan had a pitching coach, you know, in sports, it's encouraged that coaching is always going to be a part of your life. So you never take it out. But we go to university, we go to school, and I think goodness, I'm done learning. I'm done having teachers.I'm a big believer that we always have to have either peopleto peer learning, like in an EEO, coaching, like the services I provide, maybe you provide for, you know, that close, close, tight network of mastermind groups, coaching is is part of it. They say it takes a community to raise a child, I argue it takes a community to raise an entrepreneur too. Mm hmm. No, I completely agree. So, you got a little bit into this, but I want to,I would love for you to share even more in detail. But how is the the what are the parallels between entrepreneurial mindset and the 12 step recovery program? That's, you know, no one's ever really asked me that. And I certainly want to I want to preface it by saying I'm not a licensed counselor. I have personally never been through a 12 step program.But I have clients that have people intimately in my life who have so I'm going to kind of do my best to answer the question, but I want to make sure that people know you know, call me you know, reach out on my website, hey, I, you know, I need I need help with drugs and alcohol. That's not my area of expertise. So if you take a look at that,The entrepreneurial mindset as well as the the mindset of someone who's got a substance challenge. Typically, there's there's a, there's a I'm not good enough mindset attached. So we take they take the drugs and the alcohol to numb the feelings numb the pain, and it create a different version of themselves. A lot of entrepreneurs start a business to prove something to themselves because they feel deficient. They feel deficient either internally or they feel deficient inthe messages they received from childhood and how they behave. Then there be those deficiencies and create behaviors, those behaviors then exhibit themselves and some things that worked well. So they I when I was in college, I'd go out and drink and I had a great time. When I'm in my 40s I go out and drink and I feel like like I'm gonna die. I'm really mean to people. So a behavior may be work for them at one point socially, but then it became too much and it didn't work for them socially. Same with entrepreneurship. I'm a rugged individualist, I've grown my business, I've self reliant. I've taken it from, you know, 300,000 to 900,000. I've reached a ceiling of complexity.Well, I'm just gonna keep doing the same things I did 300,000 at 900,000, it doesn't work, the business is different. And you're building yourself a job now you're building yourself a company. And I've had clients say to me, I want to be on the Inc 5006 times like you were it. I said, that's a great goal. But that wasn't why I did what I did, in getting the ocean, why they do what they do. And a lot of times, why entrepreneurs do what they do, is to feed something into fill something with inside of themselves, just like the addict is wanting to feed and feel something inside of themselves. So part of it is to recognize those both categories have fear and self doubt.And often that self doubt turns into self loathing, depending on where they are in the journey. And the a lot of entrepreneurs suffer from imposter syndrome. I did you walk into a room of other entrepreneurs and other successful people being by society and you feel like, I'm not worthy. I don't belong here. I don't want to be a part of a club that would have me in it.PeopleDrug and Alcohol it dependencies feel like, I'm not worthy, I'm letting my family down. They don't know. They think they're hiding it. It's like I thought I was hiding some of my things. There, a lot of the traits and the behaviors are exhibited.Or the underlying algorithm for techies, the underlying algorithm is the same. They're just exhibited differently. So I always tell people like this, that I had to hit bottom in order to change. People say, Well, I want you to come in and change my company and change my leadership team. I can't do that. I have to work with the leader and the entrepreneur, they have to work on changing themselves and how they approach their team, how they approach their business and how they contribute to it. No different than the drug addict or the alcoholic who says, Yeah, it's my failure. The screwed up, I'm fine.Yep, know exactly that with my clients. When I work with them on a financial basis. They often they're like, I just want to talk about money, am I I'm not talking about money, like almost ever. 95% of what I do with my clients has nothing to do with money has everything to do with you.Your legacy, how do you want to be remembered? What are your core values? How do you receive fulfillment? Once we identify some of these basic foundational principles, thennow that that then all the confusion about the money concept where you're putting your money, how I'm talking, I mean, I've had a few clients now where you sit down with them, and they just are unaware of where their money is going. You ask them okay, well, let's let's track this Penny by penny. And turns out they're spending hundreds of dollars on fast food, snacks, drinks, or whatever. One of my clients out over $1,000 on fast food eating out, wow, it's like it. I have no problem. Like, whatever you feel fulfills you do it right. I'm not here to tell you whether it's good or bad. But I am going to challenge you and ask you, is it serving your legacy? Is it serving your core values? And does it really give you fulfillment? If the answer is none of those, thenthen why are we doing and then allow them to choose how they want to continue moving forward, but all of thathas to start with, again, who you are, what's your mindset, all these things and it has nothing to do with the actual manifestation of the activities that the money spending habits. It has to do with the indecision about who you want to become and what you want to leave. I think that's brilliant. I love the fulfillment question because so many entrepreneurs say I just want to be happy. I used to say, I just want to be happy and part of the the generation, you know, go to school, get married, start a family, get a great career and just be happy was kind of that that was how my family believed. And that was drilled into me talking to my current coach, and I was very frustrated one day he's like, so here I have a prescription for happiness.eat chocolate and then go to the gym. Because a spike of dopamine is the only way you're going to be happy. And he goes that he was they actually told me the story about how they did with lab rats and how they disliked them with me, and it made them absolutely insane. He was and he challenged me it's become a platform for what I do know, swap out happiness for satisfaction.Because satisfaction is a journey satisfyingis a hero's journey. And we look at your legacy. When you look back on your life, the only thing we take with is our memories. I mean, we can have all the money in the world, but we can't cheat that it's not going to buy us out of it didn't work for Steve Jobs. It's not gonna work for me. But what is our what is our satisfaction, and you take a look at the baby steps through the start of something to the end of the journey have a satisfying experience. There are highs and lows. It is the hero's journey, where if we're just focused on just being happy all the time, we're going to live a massive sense of disappointment. And if our only measure of having a successful life is cash, cash is a byproduct of other activities. So I think your question of fulfillment is spot on. Yeah. Well, thank you. I think so too. That's why I asked it but I just have loved having you on the guests. having you as a guest on the podcast. If we want to connect with you reach out and look for maybe coaching or conversation what where's the best place to connect with us on social media website? where's the best place to get a hold of you? The best place to get a hold of me is actually on mywebsite and I love the whole theme of the show of legacy because I'm really a legacy play in my life. Most entrepreneurs I think start their business we've talked about for a while to satisfy something with inside themselves to prove something to someone or someone else that they can do something. For me being an extraordinary advisors is my legacy. I've written one book, I so yeah, I guess I live on Amazon forever. But the legacy for me is having rich in conversations like we've had this morning. So I love anybody wants to connect with me on my website, extraordinary advisors, calm, I'm happy to give you a half hour of my time for free, no cost, to have an enriching conversation that's important to you. But my goal is to listen to absorb and then I'll respond so I can be of great service to you. And it's my opportunity to be able to I don't want to bother you. I know it's an opportunity for me to do what I love. It's an opportunity for me to connect with people have enriching conversations, and it allows me a part of my legacy thought process is to pay back all the great coaches and teachers I've had along my journey. A lot of them who never know the impact they've made on me, so please, anybody's interested. They gotvalue out of our conversation today. Please reach out at extraordinary advisors calm and I'm happy to give you 30 minutes. I love that. Okay, so really quickstory time for me. So I was listening to another podcast called entrepreneurs on fire. by john Lee Dumas he does that podcast and 2017 and 2017 I was working my butt off 4050 hours a week trying to make my business work struggling and listen to this podcast and a coach and other coach she lived up in Canada offered a 30 minute coaching call for free and I was just at the right moment where I was struggling enough that I was willing to call you know I was I had set my ego down I'm telling you guys this story so you can do the same right? I set my ego down and I got on the phone call is January two sorry December 23. A few days before Christmas and on this coaching callWith her, and in half an hour, we got to the bottom of that I flat out did not believe I was worthy of success. I didn't believe I was worthy of being a thought and I'm not saying that this is going to be your your story, but this was my story and what a half an hour can do for you.My income, monthly income from 2017 to 2018 quadrupled wow or x my income by simply once I recognize this is simply a worthiness issue. I put I am worthy in multiple contexts into my daily affirmations, and four times my income I'd like a half an hour of Todd's time, I promise you is worth it. If you're gonna get more specific questions answered, I promise you it's worth it. Don't miss out on that. And I can't express that enough because it was a half an hour coaching call that completely changed the trajectory of my life. That's awesome. What a great experience. share that. Thank you so much for sharing thatYeah, no, I love it. So please reach out to him. I'm grateful that I've had an hour of his time but, and you can go back and re listen to this podcast. But really, really think about that. And, and what it means for you and what it could mean for you moving forward, if you just got on a call, and were to identify one thing, one belief that you have that's not serving you. What could that do for your life and not about you and your income, because it's not about me and my income. It's about my wife and my kids and how I'm providing for them and how I'm able to now go back and serve more to help more people because I'm now financially stable. So, like,take the half hour, it's worth it every second of the day, okay. And the link will be in the show notes here. And you can just click the link to his website and go I'm assuming go get registered on your website for that half. Yeah, absolutely. We'll get it set up. Awesome. So here are the last two sections of the podcasts got about three minutes left. Sothis is called legacy on rapid fire. So I'mAsk you five questions and looking for one word or one sentence answers. If you use one word for the first question I'm gonna ask you to clarify. Okay, fair enough. So what do you believe is holding you back from reaching the next level of your legacy today?I think the thing holding me back right now is a lack of awareness in the marketplace of what I'm able to deliver. I love that. Okay, and what what is the hardest thing you've ever accomplished in your life?Oh my gosh, Ithink the hardest thing personally and I don't think I've ever shared this on a podcast is the three year custody battle that I fought by myself as a as a attorney improper to get custody of my son is by far my life's biggest accomplishment. That's cool. So that was that's what was gonna be the next question is what's your greatest success at this point in your life, getting custody of my son raising a great young man. He's a 28 year old account now from a personal perspective, and I thinkMy greatest business success isn't being on the Inc 5006 times it's honoring my commitments to others and paying that $600,000 in debt. I love that. See, that's so cool. It's comes back to what are the values, one of the core things and about an individual and integrity. And that's the great success is when you're getting the satisfaction, fulfillment of keeping your word. It's not what you build. It's about who have you as an individual become. It's the small distinctions I promise you that are separating the people who are leading the world from the people who are following in the world is the small distinctions of how they identify themselves and their inner values and who they've chosen to be. The next question is, what what is one of your secrets you believe contributes most to your success?I think really, one of my biggest secrets is getting rid of the word expectation and replacing it with the word intention.Fantastic. And what are two or three books that you would recommend to the fuel your legacy audience okay.So for me, I'll give you a couple. I mentioned one earlier freak factor from David Rendell. It really helps you figure out who your your your uniqueness is to the world. And it may not be what you think which I was really blown away by.One of the most pivotal pivotal books that I ever read for just pure business was good to great by Jim Collins, and the stories in there. I use his Stockdale paradox story when I speak to audiences. And the last one.Now, I've listened to this book now almost five times on Audible, known for less than two years. It's called the book. The book is better got it right here. It's the it's the subtle art of not giving a blank by Mark Manson. And what I like about that book is it really helps reframe your mindset around every aspect of life. talks about dating, he talks about kids, he talks about himself he talks about business and always driving like your shows.talk about today is what legacy Do you want to have? How do you want to be show? How do you want to show up in the world? And how do you want to be seen? And how is it that you can be exactly where you want to be and be okay with yourself at the same timethat now, maybe I'll get that book from my way. It's, it's, it's powerful. We did a we did a mastermind Leadership Retreat just based around that book. That's it and it's giving yourself that it's a such a permission. And while it's got a lot of blue language in it, I find this humor to be incredibly funny, so it takes a lot to offend me. But I like his, he tells us the story of the band of Metallica and how their original guitarist Dave Mustaine, who then went on to find a very successful hard rock band was still very jealous of not being in Metallica anymore. You compare that to him, he created a band called Megadeth that he went and talked about Pete best, who was the Beatles drummer before Ringo Starr and how they threw him out of the band.before their first album, now he had gone through the journey and how he made peace with that choice and how he was now living his life and didn't have jealousy for the four Beatles. He goes, it kind of goes, I have enough money to live my life comfortably. I can walk down the street, Paul McCartney can. Yeah, so true. like looking at the freedom of life, what you actually have, where Dave Mustaine was complaining about you know, I could I could have bet you I could have been in the biggest band in the world and you threw me out and you didn't let me do this and you didn't you get an alcohol issue. Started Megadeth which is sold 2030 million albums. It's not there. Nobody's ever heard of him. But he's still had that weird jealousy and issues with something that where Pete best is like, you know, life is good. Yeah, that's funny. perception, man. Everything's perception. Okay, here's my favorite question. So I saved it for last I love when surprise for people on this show. But we're going to pretend that you're dead now.Okay, and you are able to comeBack in whatever form you believe in, and view, your great, great, great, great, great grandchildren sitting around a table discussing your life. So this is six generations about 200 years from now. Okay, discussing your legacy in your lifetime. I want to know what do you want your great great, great, great grandchildren to be saying about your legacy in your life and what you brought to the earth?I would want them to saythat he was a lifelong learner.who, through trials and tribulations, discovered his authenticity, his transparency and was able to demonstrate his vulnerability to be at the service of others. Awesome. And if you've been listening to this podcast, which hopefully you didn't just skip to the end, but I think that that is an absolute alignment with who taught is it took him a while sometimes to get there throughout throughout his life to really identify that, but as soon as he has identified it, he's been living that and he's helping other people live the same. So that is it.I love that when it's in alignment, sometimes people answer that and it's not in alignment with the whole podcast like, hey, well, you got some work to do. Absolutely. It's so important. It's, it's human beings, I've discovered you can be a great speaker and not connect with your audience because parts of them don't believe that your your behaviors, your energies and your message are out of alignment with how you come across. So I may not be the world's greatest speaker. But I want people to feel that they're getting the real deal. And people are getting my clients getting or getting a real experience versus just a bunch of catchphrases and a bunch of polish and a bunch of sometimes even Shock Value like this is, I mean, I was literally $600,000 in debt. I literally fired all of my employees. I was literally a single parent who fought for custody for three years. AndI'm doing more than just fine. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you're addingAnd even financially, that's one area but like you're really happy, satisfied, fulfilled. And you can see that you can see when somebody's completely relaxed and zero stress on their in their life. Sure, for external I mean, we always put have a level of stress we put on ourselves so we can continue to,to produce and excel and grow, which is kind of the lifelong learner thing. We were conscious that we don't know everything yet, which is a good thing. But it's not like we're feeling depressed or anxious about the future. Because that that's taken care of now. It's just pure creation mode. So I love it. Yeah, exactly. Cool. Well, thank you so much. And definitely again, go check out his website, take advantage of the free 30 minute. I hate to say free I just hate the word free because people don't value it as much. This is life changing and it could quadruple your income if you could double your income. If it could help you sleep an extra hour at night because you have a little bit more peace in your life. What is that?Is that worth to you? It's not free because the cost of not doing it is all that time all that pain that you are in not knowing. Right? Well, very well said Sir. Very well said. Okay. Anyways, I'll get off my soapbox. I'm super grateful party, Toddfor having me today. I had a great time. Yeah, thank you and we'll catch you guys next time on fuel your legacy.Thanks for joining us if what you heard today resonates with you please like comment and share on social media tag me and if you do give me a shout out I'll give you a shout out on the next episode. Thanks to all those who've left a review. It helps spread the message of what it takes to build a legacy that lasts and we'll catch you next time on fuel your legacy.

Hello and welcome to warrior divas real talk for real women. This is your host Angie Lehman ro and in the studio with me today I have Connie Wyatt Coleman. She is a dear friend of mine. She has a long lineage of, of expertise that she brings to the table but more importantly she is a woman that's after Christ's heart and ferociously runs after him every day of her life. So I cannot wait to see we we talked a little bit about how this show may go. And then we said, You know what, we just need to have one of our talks on the air. So that's what we're doing today. Welcome, Connie. Good to be here. Good to be here. Rules of Engagement. No throw punches today. No throw punches. But that's what we do when we get together, right? Yes. And you know what i have treasured it. Very few friends will take friendship and allow accountability with it. And we've had a long history of being able to love each other and hold each other accountable at the same time. We have and you know, it's one of those things that we have laughed together. We have cried together. We have been mad together. We have watched our children grow together. When we met I didn't have grandchildren and now I do. That is crazy. And they're big. They're six getting to see him too. Yeah, they're beautiful. So, you know it's it's crazy. All the all the things that have happened your girls have grown up gone through high school ones about to get married, you know and, and praise the Lord she has not been a bridezilla. Oh, goodness. That is a Praise the Lord. Yes, I will take it in this day and age with everything going on in the world to kind of put some things in perspective. Yeah, puts things in perspective for us. So I'm glad to hear all that's going good and all of our lives but you know, we also know that not everybody's doing good with things going on in their world. It doesn't have to do with if you're hearing this and listening to this in the middle of the Coronavirus thing. It doesn't even have to do with that. Some people just have a hard time getting by day by day. life on this earth is just hard, right? It just is. I I watched a video. Last night somebody had a lady and a pantry. She was singing the song Jolene. But instead of singing it, please don't take my man it says please come and take my man. And she says, and if you don't answer I'll have to call Irene. And so I know this affects people in a humorous way it affects people in an angry way and a pic affects people in a lonely way. And one of the things we like to do on warrior divas is just shine a light into that darkness in so you can see a way out and we were talking last night and one of our studies in john, where you know, that where there was a challenge to the to the apostles to be that light and to continue to live that light out. Not To expose, but that that fear and evil cannot reside in the light. And truth is the way truth is the light. And so, you know, I started thinking, what are some of the ways that I could poke and prod Connie to open up the truth of Christ to to the audience today, you know, because she didn't take a whole lot doesn't take a whole lot. If you get to follow her on Facebook, she shares some little morning devotionals on there quite often that are very good, packed, powerful, very easy to read. And that's not an easy task for someone who is as educated as she is to speak the commoners language that I can read and understand. I love it. All these people getting on and sharing their messages on Facebook and all that stuff in there using all these big words and I'm like, okay, I didn't know I was gonna have to break a dictionary and a thesaurus to figure out what this person saying, I just want it to be relevant. And that's something that Connie does. Every time she shares in this season, haven't you? There's been a lot of ugly and we'll address some of that later. But there's been such an influx of creativity and letting their light shine like you're throwing them out and, and even people that maybe didn't before coming on and just time and time again, using all different ways of creativity to make it through this season to encourage other people to love on others, with social distancing in place, but right, you know, just some real creative ways to intentionally reach out to each other. Well, you know, and it's the what it was at the Dallas orchestra performed yesterday. For the first time together since the beginning of March and they did it all from their own living rooms and did it online together. Yeah. Wonderful. What a wonderful way of you know, right now one of the things that this is teaching us is how to push through limitations. What a great thing. You're telling me I can't do this, but I'm gonna find a way to still be relevant in the world I live in. Yes. And what a great thing for all of us. Wow. Yes, personally and professionally. I know. My staff up CEO at wise choices Resource Center in pregnancy Resource Center indicator and just getting together with the staff on zoom and going okay. We know what the box is. We know what our limitations are. We know what we can do safely and what we can't within the guidelines and protocol, but Okay, now, step outside the box. How can we continue to reach our clients To reach our partners in ways we haven't thought of before, right? That would be sustainable, really, even after this season is over, because there's the good news this season will eventually be over. Well, and while we're recording this today in the studio, we're actually recording this on Good Friday. We are. And the reason I kind of wanted to do that is it's a part of the time that we're in our darkest hour where it's actually between the 12 and 3pm. Our time I know that's not the time it is and in Jerusalem, but our time, this would be the time that was the darkest of the dark days going into Easter weekend. It's Friday, it's Friday, but you know what Sunday's coming. And we have the benefit of hindsight to see that. Yeah. But you know what Jesus had the full sight to prepare his disciples before that, so that they wouldn't have to live in fear so they wouldn't have to. They could see hope at the end. You know, I think the thing that gets me is how quickly we judge them. Mm hmm. Because I he tried to tell you, he tried like multiple times, yeah. But then I look at myself, right? And how many times has he fully told me and we have full revelation of Scripture, right? How many times has he shown me the plan and that he will not leave us he will not forsake us. He, he is coming again. And he is victorious. And we have the whole counsel of Scripture and yet we still back up and fear and we still wonder and doubt in the middle of the season if if what he said is true, and if it will hold true. So it's Real easy to look at Peter and go walk. How could you deny him? Right? Well, Connie, how can you live in fear and deny the power he has in your life? Well, we were talking about we read the, the gospel of john, in our group Bible study yesterday. And one of the things that we read about was right after that were Peter, you know, had denied him three times. But when Jesus made it so important to go and see his apostles multiple times after he, after he had risen, and there's the one occasion where he's talking with Peter. And he's telling asking Peter over and over Do you love me? And Peter saying, yes. And do you love me? Yes. And do you love me? Yes. Excuse me. And I think the reason gee This is asking him that is to get Peter to say yes to Him. But also for Peter to hear Jesus say that I love you get it sunken into Peter said, Peter is kinda like my six year old grandson. You got to repeat it a few times for it to sink in. And sometimes you might have to inflect your voice a little more than you really need to you know, it's that Moonstruck snap out of it moment. Oh, God has to do that to me. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Walking through a situation just this last week. And just like, Lord, I could really use the cliff notes at this point. Right. Right. One other chapter just who, let's, let's get some cliff notes here. But well, one of the other things we talked about in our study this week in our warrior divas Facebook group and if you're not a part of it, you should be a part of it because we're starting to do more and more studying in there. And because We're on a mission to equip and empower. Not just our generation of women, but women that are coming back behind us, you know, we want it to be a legacy project. And so one of the things we were discussing this week in there was how the Roman soldiers and pilot inherit, they had no clue as to what the scripture said. So when those Roman soldiers are at the feet of Jesus about this time of the day, and they're casting lots for his garment, they had no idea they were fulfilling prophecy. Yeah. The one that pure steam on the side and didn't break his legs. They had no idea they were fulfilling prophecy. And yet he realized who it was right? No, I I'm like you we kind of talked about this weekend and I can't believe you know, we're sitting here right now and Think about all the things that happened on that Friday and just like today, things you never dreamed, you would see happen, right? The Son of God hung on across Really? His disciples did not deny him. I mean, Christian people would rather loose Brabus than Jesus. I mean, who are we right? But then I start thinking about Saturday. And when the sun goes down, it's it's the Sabbath, right? And somehow in the middle of the chaos, and the trauma, they go back home, and even though they don't get it, they don't understand it in the middle of the doubt. When the hope of their expectation is in the tomb, they walk by faith And they cry out to the Lord on the Sabbath. And that, that Saturday to me has always been. I mean, you know how it is when you come through a trauma and and you get back to your house and you kind of sit down and you kind of start feeling yourself and see if you have, you know, do I have flesh wounds? Did I really survive this day? Did that really happen? And then Saturday, what, what do I even do with this? What do I even really still believe? Where is my heart Really? And in that quiet Saturday, they still observe the Sabbath. Right? They still honored what the what he had been setting in motion for years. And I think, I think right now is the time to do that. You know, I think some of the trauma of this COVID thing may be kind of adjusting and now we're moving into Okay, I've survived the first part, I'm not mortally wounded. I'm not bleeding anywhere. What do I do with today? Right? And that's when we come back and we draw on everything that the Lord has sewn into us. Yesterday, the day before, the in his previous sness He called us to a season of prayer or diving into the word and if we will, but sit still in his presence. He will draw those things out and you said give us the hope. That Sunday's common Sunday is going to get here he is going to fulfill His promises. He is going to draw us out of this. But I just feel like truly rotten, right in this season. That man this a Saturday season it feels like well, you know, I think there's some some big truth to the fact of the numbness that you just brought up. You know, when all this first started happening, I know I talk to a lot of people there. They're like, I've just slept a lot and watched a lot of Netflix I'm basically Netflix didn't chilled, which I know that there's another slang for that at times but, you know, sleeping and watching TV sleeping and watching TV, it was a it was a numbness it was this shell shock. It was a What do I do now there were some people that haven't slowed down our grocery workers, our truckers, our doctors and nurses. Those people haven't slowed down, our food processing plants, farmers, they all are still showing up every day. And so, for me, my husband and I own a plumbing company and our plumbing company. While our residential calls haven't been as much. Our commercial calls are still happening because we serve a lot of restaurants, hospitals, food processing plants, right. So for us life hasn't shifted as much as it has for others. I'm still doing coaching as a matter of fact, I've had people come and hire me since this happened because now they're shifting to add online to their already brick and mortar business or whatever it is. So I'm helping them through that transition along that ways. So that I still had a day or two where I was like, Whoa, what is this gonna do? And then my sleep schedule got off and all sorts of things. And like the apostles, I had to go, Okay, it's time to get up. Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm kind of like here. When this first started, God called me to go to the square there and indicator in our small town at seven o'clock every morning, and just pray around the square. And it was, I thought, just gonna be one day. And then when we when we were there that day is like, no, this is every day until this is done. And I was like, oh, Because I don't leave the house at 645 in the morning on a normal day. So, um yeah. So it's it's kind of been that kind of thing that God did that made me stay on a schedule. So I do that and then I go to the office and I'm only one there but you know, Hey, get the work done that needs to be done and then I'm home by two or three my husband's already retired so we were kind of already that's a new normal so getting used to him being retired and home. And so yeah, it hasn't changed as much as a lot of people's lives have. Man You're right. There's there's some people really adjusting and another thing we've talked about is just the grace that you know, your two days kind of came in the beginning. Someone else's reality hit or just I don't know what you even call those two days, right? crash or shut down or process level we're hitting over the last couple of days as layoffs are starting to happen. Yes. And there will be some like my personality is kind of the kind that just gets through it and doesn't really even see things. I'm a trauma triage person. Yeah, and I'm in it and then once we get done, and it's over and everybody else is all excited about going to work then then mine will come right but as sisters we have to be able to embrace each other and and recognize that we do process all that different. And not only that, but whether one sister isn't as concerned as someone else or as sheltered in place. I guess that's shelter in place is the is more out and about or another one is more cautious. There's grace for both right? And instead of bashing each other man, we can do better. We can support each other, encourage each other and walk through different seasons in different times, right? And hopefully we're we do that better than I'm seeing some. You know, like I said earlier in a lot of ways you see a lot of amazing creativity and intentionality coming out and then sometimes, wow, you know, fear can either mask itself as overly confident or as under confident, and just what we're typically used to seeing fear look at look like and even in either one, we have to have grace to come alongside and encourage meet them where they are, right. That's what Jesus did for us. That's what he did for Peter. What you were just talking about. He met Peter right? Worry was right. The typically boisterous Peter now became the overly cautious Peter, right. And Jesus every time put that and just think I didn't even think about that that's just a number of hours between him being overly confident and slicing the soldier's ear off right. And a few hours later, he's the other way and denying haven nosing. Right? Wow, I had never even really write that. But just a number of very brief hours, that Peter goes through all of that, and yet the Lord had grace, calling back to truth, but had grace and love and mercy for both extremes. Well, you know, we were talking in our study this week about the Pharisees and the Sadducees how they, how they were manipulating pilots so much, you know, and pilot saw it. He he recognized it And as we read through each of the Gospels we read, you know, Matthew one day mark one day, Luke one day, john one day, and we've got some other verses about the resurrection and, and all that stuff coming up that we're gonna discuss later on today. And the when we're discussing that I said, you know, the Pharisees and the Sadducees were going to pilot going, you know, he's he's stirring things up and they were pointing at Jesus now all I can think of is, when you point at somebody, you got three fingers pointing back at you, right? So they're pointing at Jesus saying he stirring them up. But in reality, he was stirring their hearts and getting them to see something beyond what the Pharisees and Sadducees were teaching them. That's when they get in trouble. And therefore, oh, come out. They were like our sheep bowls. are not staying in line. Like, we love them to stay in line and they're starting to want to look behind the curtain as they say in the laws, you know. And, you know, I love the part where we read last night, that pilot when he put the plaque over Jesus's head that said, the King of Kings King of the Jews, you know, and they're like, no, it needs to say he claimed to be they were trying to spin it. I said, they're like the media today, you know, they're always trying to spin it to put the right words to get the biggest attention to get this to get the things approved. You know, and, and I'm not out here call on fake media. I'm not doing all that stuff because I have some very good friends that are part of the media that do their due diligence. So you know, I'm not going there. I'm not getting on that bandwagon. But on the other side of and with me being in radio media and podcasting, now I am the media. So, but on the other side of it It is, we need to be cautious of the people around us that are stirring things and pointing to others deflecting to others. We need to have the mindset to look exactly at what is the truth. And the difficult thing right now is in so many ways, no one knows no one knows right? The truth really is except you can always know the truth of Scripture, right and always know the truth for the direction of your life for how to treat others are how to walk through problems, even if you don't know the truth of whatever problem it is you're facing or whatever the disaster for lack of better word, right is. Because anytime you're walking through one you don't know the truth of it until you get all the way through it and see but this is is I mean, this is one that has shaken the world. Yes, rightly or wrongly, and I shake in the world. And I don't think we've seen half. And I don't say that, like pessimistically, I don't think the curtains have been pulled back to see the spiritual ramifications of this as much as anything else. Well, I think we talked a little bit too. And the reason I brought up the Pharisees and the Sadducees, we talked a little bit before we came on the air about we need to be very careful about having a religious spirit during this time. I was in a group the other day and somebody was like, Hey, we're gonna do a call Friday at four, something like that. And somebody on the west coast is like, Well, you know, I'm observing that I'm reading my Bible, because it's Good Friday and the guy goes, well, what's good Friday, you know, and somebody said, Well, for those that are religious, it's a sacred holiday. And let me just tell you, all right, for those of you that don't know me, Well, I have a sassy side. Why are you laughing? Connie? We did I learned it from Connie. No. I did. Well, you asked my husband, he would say you learn from the best, but we didn't mention no throat punches, right. I think that might have given a clue. Right? Right. So, but in that group, when the person said, for religious people, in my right part of my mind, I knew she meant no offense to it. But in my sassy part of my mind, I wanted to say, Well, I'm not religious, but as a Christian, I observe. Yeah. Because to me, there's a difference. There is a difference in being a Christ follower, and full of grace, because what we talk about About earlier with Jesus talking to Peter, he was talking to Peter after Peter had denied him three times. And he was asking Peter, do you love me? And he asked him three times do you love me? Helping Peter rehabilitate his own heart and his own guilt over the denial of Christ. He was having that intimate moment with you. You know how we, we do. We talked about my six six year old grandson, though that you grab them by the face, you put hands on either side of their face to where their cheeks are just squished up just right. And you go Do you understand me? And that I can envision in verbal picture. That's what Jesus was doing with Peter. You know, yes, you've made mistakes. Yes, you are a zealous person. But I want you to be zealous for my people. Yes, big difference. Big difference bead my sheep tend to my sheep. Love My sheep, and being religious about whether or not they're going to church and trusting God for a miracle to heal them and keep them safe and all this. Oh, it's exhausting being self righteous. And you know what's funny is we can all go there so fast because I mean, let's admit it black and white is way easier. You know? It's just easier. It is. And the Sagittarius and Pharisees were very black and white, very legalistic by had it down to a science. But Wow, how they could get it wrong. Right. They could get it wrong. And that just to me, just goes to prove how easy it is to get off track. They knew the word, right. If anybody knew the word they knew the word right? didn't have the spirit. They had the religion in the relationship. And here's the thing that really, really gets me. They knew the word they knew the prophecy. And watching those soldiers go, were to the to on either side of Jesus and breaking their legs, but not breaking Jesus's leg and piercing him in the side instead. You wonder if they're looking at that going, whoa. I think they looked at it and said, Let's fix the mess up our deal. Right? Because at the same about the same time, they're casting the lats. Yeah. to both of those were fulfillment of prophecies by people that were not prophetic people to fill. We're not people of studying of the word, you know. And one of the things I talked early on in the week about was Judas You know, we call him Judas, the trader, but he was the first domino to fall in setting the prophecy emotion. Yeah. Yes, Jesus knew it was all coming. But for it to happen those 30 pieces of silver had to be exchanged. Okay, we don't like to think of a life that includes being broken better and betrayed. Well, that works. Um, yeah, it's a betrayal. Right? You know, and and we get all bent out of shape when it happens to us and prayerfully we're not doing it to others. But yeah, we've got a live on a really, really tough planet to try to walk out and While he promised us he would lead the way and he would never forsake us, he did not promise us that it was going to be a simple walk, or a simple journey and to think that a betrayal was what kicked off. The prophecies is just kind of telling. Well, you know, a friend of mine shared something last night we talked about the, the being laid off of work. You know, there's I've had several friends over the last few days have posted that they've been laid off work and some of them are taking it very well. You know, God's got something better, but some of them are feeling like a betrayal of their employer or the government or even if they work for a friend of theirs, the friend you know, but one of the things that she was a friend of mine Catherine Clift shared was she remembers her husband when he used to do his daily live worship podcasting said that God doesn't demote he promotes and God is always faithful and I was like, What a great reminder to all of us, no matter what we're facing, some of us may be still stuck on Friday still, and and you know, now dealing with the numbness of Saturday, but Sunday is still coming. And, you know, I, one of the things I loved yesterday and reading from john, you know, I, I found something new I liked from each of the Gospels. You know, Luke really was great as well. But john, when he he, we call him the narcissist of the Gospels. Jesus loves the one who Jesus loves, but there's a reason I mean, one of the things that That I found yesterday in the scripture that not really picked up on it said, Well, let me find it. I've got it right here. And I say I've got it right here. And Jesus was looking down is is near the cross of Jesus did his mother, his mother sister marry the wife of colobus cloak, ah, whatever. Sounds good to me, and Mary Magdalene, when Jesus saw his mother there and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her woman, here is your son, into the disciple, here's your mother. From that time on, the disciple took her into his home. Why would why wouldn't john, thank you as the favorite. Jesus just gave him the blessing of his mother and gave john the honor of stewarding Her to the end of her days. Yeah, I would. I would think I was the favorite too, wouldn't you? Well? Yeah. But also, that comes with a price. It does. He was the only disciples still standing around the cross watching all this happened. Right and he loved, right. So, again. Yeah, I mean, look, I'm I'm Jesus's favorite. He loves me best. Right. Will I follow him? Right? On Friday? Well, john 30 right in john finished strong. Yeah, Jesus, and even better question. Survive Friday. Love Saturday. Rejoice on Sunday. What are we going to do with Monday and Tuesday, right. I mean, really, you get through the battle, you survive it. You rejoice and you see the victories and you See what the Lord has done for you? And then what are you going to do go back to how you were living on Wednesday and Thursday? I mean, what are we going to do with it come Monday and Tuesday Are we going to forget about it and just awake earlier, they thought they were at the top of the world. And now their world is totally shattered at their feet. And so good question to all of us. So we've had Coronavirus still do. And I'm not at all downplaying the suffering, whether it's health wise, financially, emotionally, that people are going through, but we will survive it. Right. What are we going to do with it? What are we going to do on Monday, that carries the victory that Jesus paid the price for and that we're going to celebrate on Sunday. What are we going to do on the Monday after Coronavirus? Right, where will our loyalty and our and our walk and our faithfulness be man? Well, and to be quite honest, if you look at the beginning of the 1900s, we had World War One, we had the Spanish flu. We had the Great Depression. We had World War Two, all before 1950. Right? That's a lot to pack into a 50 year period. That's a lot. And so we as Americans, you know, even though we're hurting other countries as well, we as Americans, are countries country has seen difficult times. We have come through difficult times. That's the time known as the greatest generation, right? can't even believe what if now is the beginning of the next greatest generation. It can be they can boo but the choice is ours. What Do we want it to be? One of the things that we talked about? In? I think it was Matthew that just struck me so solidly is when the Jews were saying crucified, Jesus crucified Jesus, and parshas pilot was wanting to wash his hands of it. They were like, his blood is on our hands in the hands of our children. You know, it's, it's apparent the things we do today are the things that our children dream, reap the benefits or the consequences of its Yes, it's just a known fact. So what is it that we what is the legacy we want to live now is blessed the other day to be able to record a message for a conference Coming up for heartbeat international and just a little seven minute kind of like a TED TED Talk. And the topics had been picked way back. I don't know last September, probably. And it's it's so funny how God worked it out because I had submitted a topic for a workshop, but they had asked me to do this talk on a different topic. And they got crossed. And so what they actually did was put in the, all the paper, all the promotional stuff that I was doing my seven minute TED Talk. And it was a different title. And, you know, in my fleshly, I was like, Well, I can make this work. I can make that title work with the message I already know I'm doing. Well, the title of the message was living out a god sized dream and I kept trying to make At work with a message on, I'm just gonna be brutally honest on walking in your authority. Right? Well, you can make the to kind of coincide except when the Lord wants a fresh word, right? And yeah, that you want the cliff notes and he doesn't do that. And so you know, you you kind of go through it. I'm like, Lord, in the middle of everything that's going on. You really want me to speak about living out a god sized dream? Really? Um, I don't really want to be virtual so they can't throw anything at me. So this is a good this is a good thing, right? Um, but he just he took me totally off where we are but took me to Solomon. Hmm. And just you know that he asked for understanding and discernment and judgment and God wrapped it up in a nice sized bow and call it wisdom hmm and said for that I will give you Also wealth and honor. And I kept studying that message him guys don't get it. I mean, a Who am I to ask for a god sized dream in the middle of all this and be? I don't even know what to ask for if I did, right. And I got to I think it's First Kings chapter three got to verse 15. And it says, then Solomon awoke. And I was like, whoa, wait a minute. You go back to verse five, and it says Solomon was in given which is a place he shouldn't have been in darkness at night, which is kind of where a lot of people feel we are right now. Right. And God came to him in a dream. Hmm. So all the things that that we remember that Solomon recounted his lineage of from David and from God's promises and everything that's been sewn into him. We aren't smart enough, right? We aren't good enough. And if we really do want to live out a god sized dream, it really can start now. Right? And it's just having the conversation with God to know what his size dream is yes, because we can't. It's not about us dreaming and dreaming a dream and saying, hey, God, will you please bless this? It's about us. Coming awake, and letting him teach us what he's already sewn into us. You know, whether it's our setup, or our hang ups or whatever it is, he's already sewn it into us. And when God speaks things into us, he sometimes speaks things into us, that you may not even know is a possibility. Yeah, just because in I was thinking about Noah. Yeah, Noah builds an ark, because it's gonna be flooded. And it's never rained on the planet Earth up into that point. I mean, no wonder people were calling him weird and crazy and all sorts of things. But it rain had never fallen on the earth before. And he's building this thing that's supposed to flow. It's supposed to do all this stuff. So God will call you to do things that other people may look at and go, why are you doing that? That's crazy. And chances are if it's a god sized dream, they're going to do that because I find it's a fusions three, three this month 20 says now to him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we can ask. think or imagine Yeah, I can dream up a lot of really cool stuff. But God can do beyond write any of that according to the power that works within us all about His power, His Spirit working through US and US following where he leads in this season, in good season, in difficult season, right. And I guess there's a question for us. It's Friday, Sunday's coming, right. We're kind of on Saturday where it's kind of a still in between. What are we going to do with that time? If we really are supposed to shelter in place and a lot of us are home more and have more time on our hands? What are we doing? I mean, now's when you want to start a god sized dream. Well, you know heard a new partner. I heard a new episode of Tiger kings coming out on Easter Sunday I'm joking. I there is one coming out on Sunday but that's not an endorsement of any twitch that's not an endorsement by any means. I'm just saying you know how many people are more excited about that than the fact that the tomb is empty on Sunday night? Spoiler Yeah, I'm just spoiled it. I've read the book. I've read the ending. Truly, you know if we have a little extra time and you know, I know a lot of your listeners are, love the Lord and are living some amazing, amazing lives and dreams and ways of tuned on enough to to see the different ways they help. their communities and each other. And I mean, just some amazing women on here, just say, what are we doing with this time? What if we really did, let's just call it Saturday. And we spent the season of Saturday letting him awaken us to what he wants to do next. You know, I'm gonna throw my husband under the bus for a minute, just because he's not in here and I can do that. But early on in our marriage, you know, we would say some things like a lot of married couples do. We may say some things that maybe some of us that have been married a while do too, but the ratio Yeah, that's a whole different topic. We need a different expert that we say stuff to each other that we say in the heat of the moment that we wish we could have taken back, because it does cause hurt. It does cause pain. It does cause strife. But there was this phrase that my husband said to me one time early on in our marriage, we're having marital difficulties. And he said, I love you. But I'm not sure I'm in love with you. And that was rough. Don't get me wrong. We've gone to counseling. We've been married 27 years now almost 28 years now. We got over it. He and he is still alive. It's I'm still married to the same husband. You know, but the other part of it was me asking myself on a regular basis. Do I love the Lord or am I in love with the Lord? Because when you love somebody, you're like, Hi, bye. I love you. I mean, I've told the cashier Love you. Bye bye. But when you're in love with somebody, you want to spend time with them. You want to know what makes them happy. You want to do things for them that make them happy. You want to find a way for y'all to live your lives completely together. And that's a huge difference. And where I took offense to Mike saying that to me so many years ago, I'm thankful now that he said that to me, because I've had to dig deep and I've had to ask myself that question, as am I living my life as if I'm in love with Christ? Or am I living it as if I'ma Love you, bye. Oh, sorry, I thought we weren't gonna do any throw punches today. Huge, huge difference, you know, yeah, it's it's a difference in looking for his hand and looking at us face. Just that simple. You sit down to study your word to see what he can do for you. Or you sit down to study His Word to hear his heart, right? And see him face to face it it'll change your life forever. Well, there's there's been times the more and more I get into the word, you know, used to I'd read the word, and I'd write my little journal and put it have a whole lot of my thoughts in that journal. And I was super smart. Yeah, I was good at what I was doing right. But then, the other part of it is what I started realizing was when I was starting to write things in my journal questioning things. Normally it was questioning motives of my heart. It was questioning how willing I was to walk with God how big I was. Willing to dream with him? How if I could discipline myself in this area? Whoo, I hate that word. Discipline myself in this area that he would open up this area for me. You know, and the more disciplined I became, the more the doors were opening. And I'm not talking about religion and law. I'm talking about being disciplined to be more in tune with him in his calling. walking the street in the neighborhood, not as a hooker. Okay, walking the street in my neighborhood. She had died laughing at me right now. Hey, Jesus, loved tokers. Anyway. Oh, yeah, that walk in my neighborhood Street. Even if we're not able to be within the six feet with each other I can still share a smile. I can still share a Hello. I can touch bases with people in my in our Facebook group the other day. We have a neighborhood Facebook group, right? And here's my thing. There is a church song we used to sing. Back in the olden days they don't sing it so much because we think so much contemporary now, you know, in my church, but back I don't even think I've ever sung this in the church I go to now Whoo, that was a rabbit trail anyway. The song you they will know we are Christians by our love. Yep. All right. Well, if you're having intelligence, not by your intelligence, not by me telling you I'm a Christian. Because if you're having to tell me, then I probably wouldn't have never known it from your actions. Not by all the oh they won't know it by all The things we don't do, right? The somebody in our Facebook group post the other day was in our Facebook group for our neighborhood was posting about their next door neighbor. Right? Not one of the neighbors in the almost 300 homes in our neighborhood. Their next door neighbor was mad because their next door neighbor had called city out on them because their trash cans had been in front of their yard and was mad that they had called the police instead of coming over and having the decency to knock on their door and have the conversation and all this stuff on Facebook. So they put it on Facebook and then said in there several times and I'm a Christian and data and all this stuff. I'm like you're making it worse. No, you're a religious person. Please don't. Please, please don't tell anyone that you're a Christian. Just please don't. And then the other part is is we wanted to tell them to will. Couldn't you have gone next door and had the conference They're Christian. They're Christian they they everybody should cater to them. You know, my favorite along those lines, if you talk to any waitress, oh, you're about to push a button here. The the time they hate to wait on tables the most is when the rude people come in after church on Sunday because they're very rude. They're very demanding and they do not tip. No, they leave little pamphlets and little business cards with Jesus loves you on it and they don't tip their server. They're also probably the ones that don't tie the well at church either. I'm just I'm not judging. I'm not judging. I'm just putting it out there. We can do better. We can do better. Because here's the thing. Once the Sunday came, you know, I love it. I keep going back to john because not because it's the freshest But because he was just more in tune with the behind the scenes the things that most people don't talk about his favorite well I relate to him really well because I'm everybody's favorite but but john whenever he runs the team he stops and looks in but in true Peter fashion john notes that Peter grunts straight in all right. So Peters in there John's in there they go back. Mary's telling the other disciples all this stuff by now she seen Jesus she's had a conversation. But you know when she went and talked to Peter and john, she was trembling. She was wondering she was she was upset. It didn't really say she was fearful, but she was upset. But by the time she broke the news to the rest of the disciples, she was elated. She had seen Jesus. I mean, look When you are in a terrifying situation and even now if it's in your spirit, hers was audibly. You hear the Savior call out your name didn't get any better. It calms you instantly. It fires you up instantly. it verifies everything you've ever thought he sewn into you before told you before. And that's all it took was for the man she was in love with the teacher, the Savior she was in love with not just love distance, distant link to just in the craziness of the moment. Call out Mary. Well, I think I think it for me, you know, people like oh, you just like that it was a woman and you're into women empowerment and all that stuff. I said, There is so much more to this than that. I said, here's the thing. Mary had seven demons cast out of her. She had already seen what she thought was impossible become possible. Yes. Who better for Jesus to show himself to somebody who was already primed and ready to see what they believed was once impossible. I mean, how cool is that? I love it. You know, I feel like I'm that person. My husband thinks I'm that person. Which demon am I talking the hangry one. derailed that has lived less than a chosen daughter of the king. has heard his voice call me to himself and has forgiven and redeemed and restored and allowed my place of deepest wounding to become his place to show off what he can do, right? I totally identify with what you just said. Well, we have to take a quick break because you know, they like for the commercials to run here to pay for our radio time slot and all of that. So we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna dive into what happened from Sunday and beyond. Hey, this is Angie Monroe of the warrior Davis show broadcasting live each Tuesday 11am Central from globe life park in Arlington, Texas, login to hear real talk with real women that will empower and equip you to make a more powerful impact in the world each Tuesday 11am Central unfishable Radio Network joke Hey, this is Angie Lehman row of a leading moment show broadcasting live each Thursday 10am Central from the globe life park in Arlington, Texas login to hear amazing people share their stories of resiliency in business and life here how their leading moment can inspire your leading moment login each Thursday 10am Central on fishbowl radio network. All right, and we are back with Connie Wyatt Coleman. And we are having some great conversation. We've talked a little bit about Friday and Saturday and leading up to that, and we've talked a little bit about Sunday. But you know, one of the things that as we were talking about Jesus appearing to marry and then to his decision dipoles a lot of times it would have made more sense if you look at it if he would have gone from today's standard of people gone back and shown himself to the Pharisees the Pharisees the pilot and gone okay keep me coming I don't know we're coming out Oh, we have jumped the shark now. But you know he in my mind that's who I would have shown myself to you thought you could keep me down boom. And a lot of tastes today we see that people in today's society. I was down this is my comeback. I'm you know, you know someone's So said this about me and I defeated that and I have made myself this because of that you had made yourself squat. No self made nothing. I'm a self made man say, I make those all the time. There's a doctor of theology. That friend of mine that had a post up yesterday, and he says, Some of y'all aren't gonna like this. It's Dr. Mike Brown. And I really don't care. He says before I say what needs to be said I acknowledge the sacrifice and work of American people attempting to do all we can do to mitigate the virus. There has been cooperation, sacrifice, adaptation and behavior monitoring. Which are commendable and noteworthy and exemplary. I love my country and its people. Having acknowledged all that, well, here we go again, claiming all our hard work and sacrifices beginning to turn this virus around. just heard on TV how impressive we have been in lowing the projective death tolls. Meanwhile, men and women of God who are battling in the spirit against this calling millions to prayer and sounding trumpet for repentance, a return to the Lord and a humble petition for his deliverance are mocked and castigated. See I can learn big words and lampooned as antiquated, flat earth fools, believers who are praying, fasting and calling out to God or patted on the head like little ignorant trolls that must be tolerated until their kind will eventually be absorbed by the globalist monolith with all of this sublime And superior wisdom say that he's one of my people that writes some big words that I have a hard time with. And so, you know, he's, he says, quit claiming God's glory for ourselves less through our arrogance, we inform him we can handle these problems on our own. Romans 121 through 22, because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God. Neither were thankful but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened. professing themselves to be wise they became fools. God forgive us remember us in Deliver us. You are refuge in our strong tower forever and ever. Wow. So my, I thought that was I thought that was a good deep word for us. To sit with because, you know, even the disciples could have gone. Have you seen my Jesus? Looky there, he did this and then he was boom, then he was back as well and leave it to Peter he kind of did. Right. Not in those terms, not in his own strength, right. But after Jesus was on earth and after he showed himself to the people and after he transcended that's when that's when Peter walked in and the power and an anointing fell. And I mean, yeah, he was. He might not have done it with the mic drop. Right. But I mean, he did he was like, just an airdrop. Yeah. Jesus Whoo, y'all killed. This is the Jesus who offers you salvation. Right? This is the Jesus who offers you eternal life. And Spirit had opened up and people could hear truth and understand truth and the huge movement of people coming to understand who Jesus was, and what he was here to do. Just exploded. Well, you know, so what are we going to do after Sunday? Well, first off, we we need to not be like Thomas. Poor Thomas. You know, he was the one that because he hadn't been there and seen Jesus when everybody else did. He he had to touching him and poke his hand into his side and all that stuff. Believe. It doesn't say any of the other disciples did that. So Thomas was a bit morbid we know that. But when when we did this, you know, I love that Jesus without saying he was omnipresent, showed he was omnipresent in this because if Jesus had come back and said, john called me and told me that you were doubting me and who I am, then Jesus would have said it there because john would have written it down. But Jesus didn't say that. Jesus came in and said, Peace be with you then said to Thomas, Put your finger here. He was laying Thomas that he already knew what Thomas needed to believe. We did. He didn't have to articulate that to Jesus. Jesus already knew. And guess what? He knows what each one of us need. Well, okay, so we're going to talk about Christian versus religious again. If I put out on Facebook or in a group that I have an unspoken prayer requests then if somebody it then I somebody comes to me and tells me that they can't pray for me because they don't know what what I need prayer for because it's unspoken. Why are you trying not to lab that that that they need to know what I need prayer for so they can specifically proof to God for me. She's got this look on her face to people like she's trying to choke back. Tears of laughter I'm waiting for how you responded. I'm sure I'm sure that wasn't one of those that I held back on the keyboard once. But basically, somebody had shared in one of our groups that someone so needed prayer, no, I shared that someone so needed prayer, please pray for her. And they came back and, and it was like three comments of you need to tell us what's wrong so we can pray the right way and ask the Holy Spirit to intervene, intervene the right way, and dah, dah, dah. It was just like boom, boom, boom, boom. And mine was very short and to the point, when more through better, we can do better. She keeps a weekend. I mean, let's be honest, spiritual abuse takes all forms. It can be sassy or ferrocene. smacking somebody over the head with a Bible verse instead of meeting them where they are, and loving them and loving them to a new level. And ladies, let's just say it, it can be women who mask prayer, as gossip beauty shop for your circles. Yeah. God does not need you to know the details in order to sit down and say, Dear Heavenly Father, Jesus help my friend. They need you. They're crying out to you, you know what they need? And I know you're able. Right? Amen. Right. I don't need another detail. There is nothing about my prayers that can really do it. It's just us petitioning together. Let's take it a step further. So obedience, if you need to know the details, the Holy Spirit is able to quicken your heart on what to pray for, right? You don't have to, you just don't have to write I can't tell you how many times that I have heard prayer meetings, turned into gossip sessions because we cannot just simply say hey, so and so nice. Prayer. In order for people to really truly pray fervently, we think they need to know the detail that you know, because her husband this and her daughter that and her son did the other end, right. That's a failure on Christians, brothers and sisters, to take prayer requests to the Lord seriously. And it's a failure on our part to abuse each other. With gossip when there's no need for it if we're truly relying on the spirit to pray. Sorry, you just hit a nerve. I cannot stand it. Well, you know, last year it's interesting. We're coming up on a year since my friend Kim passed away, and on the wee morning hours of a April 18. I woke up in the middle of the night, my husband and son were up in Arkansas with my parents and woke up in the wee mornings of the night and I wrote a letter to her in in Facebook Messenger, just letting her know how much I loved her how much I cared for how much you know, I didn't. I didn't know where she was in her medical crisis at that time to if she was even reading things or not. And I went back to sleep. After I wrote that letter. It took me a while to go back to sleep, but I basically cried myself to sleep that night after writing that letter. And I woke up the next morning, and there was a post on her page. That said, Please pray for my family. I had not verbally talked with my friend in weeks But I knew that day from that post on her and what God had started my spirit overnight that my friend was soon to answer death's door. I knew it. I didn't have to have her pick up the phone and call me. I didn't have to have her daughter pick up the phone and call me. I didn't have to get a text. I didn't have to get a detail about how the body had ravaged her system. The chemo had ravaged her system so much and done it. I didn't mean any of that. You didn't have to comment on the Facebook post inside tell us what's going on? No, no, no, you know, I didn't have to do that either. All I had to do basically about the time I saw that post, my husband called from Arkansas to tell me that we had lost another loved one in Ohio. That was our third death then since January and on his side of the family. He's trying to talk to me. As he's talking to me, he can notice that my voice ain't right. And I could just go, I said, I have this sense that Kim is dying. And he's like, Well, what do you know? I'm like, that she's dying. And he goes out of you know, that. I'm like, it's just a sense, you know? And it was just and she was the one that pushed me and challenged me and never wanted me to hang back to what she was called to, but she wanted to be involved into what we were doing. Yes. Right. And so, being in tune with her brought me in tune with God. being in tune with God brought me in tune with her. Last week. God I post, from a cousin in Georgia saw posts from a cousin in Georgia. Just saw one of the kids posted, please pray for my family. Instantly I knew what had happened. Before my husband even got confirmation of what had happened. I instantly knew because I'm connected with that mom. And we have shared our hearts with each other. And were to share each other's hearts. The Holy Spirit intervenes to communicate in ways between us that when we don't have the strength or the energy to pick up the phone and make the call, the Holy Spirit can say, hey, you need to text them. You need to call them you need to check on them. When you find that true, yeah. Some of us are better at doing it. I mean, I just yesterday I mean, I considering my older brother, right? And he posts to Facebook almost every morning. And I saw it yesterday morning. He had posted it Wednesday. But I just saw it. And I mean in the first three or four words, I could hear in his voice that something wasn't right. Right. And he was he was absolutely transparent on the post just that it had been a rough day and he's, you know, walking through this and a pastor friend had passed away, but there was just something deeper, it felt like, again, to your point, I know his heart, right. And so I just text shot him a text real quick. And I'm like, Look, I know, I know you're trying to navigate all of this and blah, blah, blah, and just know in this moment, right now. I'm praying strength for you. And I almost he texted me back He said, You know, when I posted that yesterday I had this, just this feeling just this over, was overcome with it. He's a little did I know, by 10 o'clock last night, or the night that he posted that deal, but 10 o'clock that mind. His father passed away. Oh my goodness, he got the call. He was able to get there and he had about an hour with his father. But that he didn't he didn't have to ask outside of that post. Say Anything else was going on? I had no clue his dad had been sick again. Right. But I just knew after hearing his voice that he needed encouragement Hmm, I had no clue anything else that had transpired. Didn't need to know right. The need to know just needed to know that I was reaching out for him. So can do what do we do after Sunday? Yeah. We live life with people. And when God put somebody on your heart, follow up with it, right or no follow up. I, I can't tell you personally, how many times you know, I've told you 100 times I thought before I took this job that I knew what spiritual warfare was, I thought I was prepared. I had no No, no, no clue, no clue. And there have been many times, just online that it's not something that people ask for prayer for necessarily, it's not something that you would ever put on Facebook, but just the, the battles that come and God has quickened to other people's spirits, right to to call or just to send it, send a text or, hey, you want to go have coffee, you know, just any little thing but somewhere along the way, the Holy Spirit put me on other people's hearts. When I needed it, and they didn't need details, probably didn't even share details when we went to coffee. Right? Not with a lot of them. But some of them just Hey, you just crossed my mind. I want you to know, you know, I love you keep going strong. Well, and, and here's the other thing that you have to realize even Jesus had tears to His disciples. He took his disciples within places. He taught lessons that they were all able to hear and do. But even when he went to have certain moments with disciples, there are some that were closer to him than others, that he confided in more so than others. And that's okay, too. Yeah. You don't have to tell everybody everything that's going on. You know, you shouldn't and Connie's one of those people that knows a lot of what goes on with If she doesn't know it right away, she'll know it at some point when we have a discussion. And, and I'm hoping that I always hope that I'm that friend to my friends whenever I'm doing that as well, that they feel that they can speak and open their hearts to me and tell me anything. And it will not shock me it will not hurt me it will not push me away. And that I will not think that they are less than a Christian. I will just love them as Christ loved them. You know, and, and we need to be that friend to others. I know. One of the ways the Lord has done that, for me is just for several. I don't even remember when he really put it on my heart but somebody was going through a trial and you know, just letting them know I'm there letting them know I'm there. I don't you know what, I'm available to you whenever you need me. You don't have to tell me a thing. You don't have to tell me what's going on. just text me the word Jesus, and I will know immediately, right? That you need prayer that you need me to intercede in your behalf and you need me to stand in the gap or stand strong with you. Hmm. And that's all I need to know. That's it text me the name Jesus. Right. And I have some friends that that take me up on. Right. And I'm thankful because I have friends that man, I can just sit and pray, please pray. And that's where the power is. Because, look, here's the truth when when we're in the middle of a battle, right? We may think we know what our prayer need is. Chances are just like right now, we don't know truth. We don't know truth of situation that we're in right now. And when we're in the middle of a battle, a lot of times we can see pieces and parts but we can't pull ourselves out. Have it far enough to see the big picture, right? And if I'm telling someone what to pray, instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to tell them what to pray, hmm, if they're praying for what I want them to pray for, that may or may not be what I need, it may or may not be what the Lord has for me. So if I truly want people to pray where the need is, I'll leave that up to the Holy Spirit as much as possible. You know, as you're talking about that, I started thinking about the movie, tornado, you know, cuz, and there's a reason for it when you're in the middle of the tornado. When they were they were driving into the storm to get the data from the storm twister. twister. That's what's called twister. Yeah, Helen Hunt. Yeah, she dropped, they dropped their driving in there to get all that data out of it. But to drive in there, they had to have the other one stay back to be able to tell where the tornado was going and where Their exit route was too close because they were too close and, and you know, even being in the truck, she's like cow, another cow. He says, I think that's the same cow. Because at that point, they just didn't know what direction was the right direction out and, and there's been times where I've been in the thick of it and I'm like, I don't even know how to pray for me, right? I just don't even know what I need right now. Sleep, sleep would be nice. When when Ali had the twins and we were all here. It was like Sleep, sleep would be nice, but you know. But then there have been unexpected blessings that have happened because what happens when you just say I just need you to pray and you don't give guidance to what you need prayer for. The Holy Spirit supernaturally opens. have so much more than you could ever imagine because you've opened your receiver up to receive more than you ever hoped was possible. Just kind of who he is. Isn't that awesome? Our God is a great God. My dad, he's kind of cool. Yo, I'm also loved that. After Sunday, the apostles went fishing. Yeah, they went right back to living their lives. I did. Not the same. They were forever changed and, and yes, Jesus showed up and did the miracles of the fish. And then like they said he in that I love me. Do you love me, Peter, do you love me? He was reinstating Jesus. Jesus was reinstating Peter at that point he was he was getting Peter to realize his role and his purpose in being the rock the foundation that the church was going to be built on. That Yes, you may stumble and Ball. But there's still grace. You're still love your there's still like place for you. And how many of us have stumbled and fallen in life? I know I have many times more than three. More than more than more than three. But you know, I love that too because he Do you love me? Yes, Lord, right Feed my sheep. Right? Feed my sheep. It's not about you, right? It's about others. But the whole scenario is, well, Jesus, cook them breakfast, hmm. And then told Peter to feed his sheep. We can't give what we don't have. Right. The Lord feeds us so that we can feed others. It's not about us. It's not about promoting us. It's not about a platform for us. It's about the Lord sowing into us what he has for us To live in us and through us, and then us beating others with that. Because if you're not spending time with the Lord and you're not in His Word, then I can say, hey, Angie, you know I'm rooting for you, all day long. I can share my great intellect, intellect with you. Be slim pickins more than one. What do I have that really offers you any hope? one thing and one thing only the love of Jesus Christ, right? He says it into me so that I can sell it into others into story. And that's just what did he win over death hell in the grave to do to feed us? Right so that we can feed others. But that's what the whole that's what living on a god sized dream is about. Right. It's it's not about us. It's never about us. It's always, always about sowing life into others. Always. Well, and, you know, when he's telling them wait, we joked all week there's so quit hoarding the toilet paper. It's all about it's not God, toilet paper. Sorry. But, you know everybody talking about spraying and praying but are they really pray in the Lysol spray and pray, spray and pray that you know, we make fun of the disciples being told so many times we talked about that earlier. But we've already talked about how we've been told multiple times, but when he goes in, he talks to the disciples and He presents himself to the disciples. And then he presents himself to Thomas he goes in there because you have seen me you have believed Blessed are those who have not seen any Yeah, believe me, and believe, you know, here's the thing. They had something a gift, john 316, you have a gift that I'm giving you, you know, my only beloved son. This is a big love gift I'm giving you It's better than a diamond ring girls. And I'm giving you this gift. Enjoy your time with him. feed off of your time with him absorb from him as much as you possibly can. Because you have no idea the legacy that your involvement in these three years with my son is going to have. I mean, they couldn't even grasp the fact that he was going to come back from the dead. Could you think they would be able to grasp that 2000 years later we would be sitting here talking about him. And then the most favorite one of all Yeah. And the Doubting Thomas. I mean, no, who would have thought it? No. And we're in a microwave society. Now we don't think about that either. No, we don't think that the decisions that I make today affect my children. We might think that far. But we don't even can't even fathom what the Lord has passed us because of us. Right, if we will surrender to what he's calling us to do. All right. You know, Kim Slater had her surgery and beginning of January, and she has had an opportunity to look internally both physically and spiritually During this journey, and I saw her on that podcast the other day, yeah, she is. With God's help she is slaying it. Oh yeah, she is she's doing amazing she, she has God gave her the word of the year this year as restart. And that was before January one came around in January 2 she had her open heart surgery right. And when I went and saw her The day after she came home from the hospital, she has a heart shaped pillow. And on there, the doctor drew it has the it's a heart like a Valentine heart shape. heart but it has a picture of a heart medical wise on there. It's what she could use to hold up against the wrists incision when she went to cough because it was going to be painful, right. But on there, the doctor drew and showed her what he had done internally on her So she could see scientifically what was done physically inside of her to open up her, her get blood flowing better. And it was amazing. The day after her surgery days after her surgery, just the color that was back in her that hadn't been there in years he didn't know. And just not knowing how bad she was until it happened. But with that change, it's had overflow effect. She has lost weight. She has started eating healthier, making healthier choices, learning about how to fuel her body the right way, learning that she actually likes to exercise. She doesn't like getting started. But once she started she actually likes it. You know, so she can just get past that little bump of starting. It's like me riding the bike with a stun the other A Day in the neighborhood. We go to one driveway, and he'd stopped so I'd have to stop my bike. And he was taking arrest like a six yea

Jason Cassidy from Shinydocs discusses the evolution of IIM from AIIM20. Also Jane Hendricks from SDL discusses the developments and advantages of Machine Translation. Host, Kevin Craine AIIM.org

Atrium Health doctor Mark Vanderwel answers questions on the minds of many parents these days. We will be adding a transcription later today. Quick turn around on this episode! If you saw the original Facebook live, skip ahead 17 minutes - it dropped out after some audio issues but Stacey & Mark picked it back up again, off of FB. You can watch the full interview here Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcription Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by one drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes by real good foods real food you feel good about eating by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Announcer  0:19 This is diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  0:24 Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the show. So glad to have you here. I hope these episodes are helping. Today we are talking with a pediatric endocrinologist starting off by talking about Covid 19, of course, and things that people with diabetes specifically type one needs to keep in mind but then going down the line of listener questions things that my local Facebook group chimed in with things that the diabetes connections group chimed in with. Because if you're not seeing your endocrinologist for longer than expected, which is the case for a lot of us kids and adults, what should you You'll be doing and that's a lot of what we talked about what to do in between how to make sure that you are taking care of what you need to take care of some things you might not have thought about. And just a great chat with Dr. Mark Vanderwel, this was originally done as a Facebook Live Alright, that's only half the truth. This was originally done as a stream yard which is a an audio and video hosting system hosted Facebook Live, which crapped out halfway through and then mark and I jumped onto zoom and record it that way. So the whole video I kind of stitched it together. The whole video is up on YouTube, on diabetes connections there. It is also on our Facebook page. And here is the audio. That's what we're running is the audio of the initial Facebook Live and then everything that you didn't hear. So if you watch the Facebook Live already, the new stuff is about 17 minutes in from the beginning of the interview. If you want to skip ahead, I'm not coming back at the end of the interview. I do want to say, though, that I appreciate all of the messages I'm getting about, you know, putting out episodes. Look, we're all looking for things to do at our homes. We're all looking for good, reliable information. I am hoping to do more episodes like this more zoom Facebook stuff. So let me know what you'd like to hear. I've also been collecting audio from you from people in the audience. And I'm going to be releasing that episode and kind of figuring out how to use that great audio people just keep me posted on what's happening in their homes and what's on their minds. So I'm not really sticking to a schedule. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sorry, if you were expecting every episode on Tuesday, and sometimes on Thursdays like we normally do, but I don't know about you. I've already lost all track of days of the week. So we're just gonna put out episodes when they're ready to go. And if you want to still listen on Tuesdays, that's awesome. If you want to let me know that that is or isn't working for you. That's great, too. I just think we all need to be here for each other in these wild times. Thank you so much. All right, so here is my talk with atrium health Dr. Mark Vanderwel, welcome to everybody who is watching. I'm so glad to have you with me for this little bit of an unusual circumstances bear with us. This is the first time I've done something like this. I am Stacey Simms, the host of diabetes connections and with me is Dr. Mark Vanderwel, a pediatric endocrinologist here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area with atrium Health. Dr. Vanderwel. Thanks for joining me,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:26 Stacey. It's an honor as always,   Stacey Simms  3:29 well, we should say before we get going, we do have some disclaimers. But the very first thing in full disclosure that people need to know is that this is my son's endocrinologist and I've known Dr. V, as I've called him many times on the show and in my book for more than 13 years now. So we've never done an interview.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  3:48 Yeah. At least recorded interview for for diabetes connections. We did some back in your radio days. Oh, that's right.   Stacey Simms  3:56 Yeah, I thought you were implying that I like interviewed you when I All right.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:02 So it has been a long time since we've communicated it never on this platform.   Stacey Simms  4:05 Well, I really appreciate you jumping in because as you know, people have a lot of questions nervous times right now. So the The first thing we need to do is is do some disclaimers, obviously, while Dr. Vanderwel is our pediatric endocrinologist, he is not yours. So please, any comments questions that you may have addressed them to your own physician as well? Nothing I will put words in your mouth here, nothing that Dr. Vanderwel says today should be taken as your own personal medical advice. We're here to get general answers to general questions. And that's really about it. So I'm gonna put you on the spot a little bit, I think. But as you listen and watch at home, just you know, let's use some common sense here.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  4:43 Yes, I'm not speaking for the pediatric endocrinology community in general. I'm speaking for myself and different physicians have different perspectives on how they take care of kids with diabetes. Different physicians will have different perspectives on Covid 19. And what I am saying is my perspective And it will not even apply universally to all of the patients I take care of because we know you are all different. Similarly, I am not a pediatric infectious disease specialist. I'm not I am not an epidemiologist, and I'm not a fortune teller. And I think we're all worried and we do not know what's going to happen in the future. And a lot of what we're talking about is just predictive, then we don't know.   Stacey Simms  5:21 All right, so good things to keep in mind. Also, this is first being broadcast live on Facebook. If for some reason as you're watching it, just bonks out or something crazy happens. We're recording the audio, this will be rebroadcast as a podcast, it may be broadcast in video in some other forms. If you have questions or comments. We're using technology called stream yard, and I can see your comments on Facebook, but we're not actually on Facebook. So there's a big delay, most likely, so bear with us. And I do have a lot of questions that I took in advance. So if we don't get to your question today, I promise it may not be with Dr. Vanderwel schedules permitting, but we are going to be addressing Senior questions going forward. And you know, we're just here to see what we can do. So we want to just jump right in. Sure. Let's go. All right. So my first question is really just about what you're hearing these days because I'm talking to you at home, you're not in the office offices is closed, but are you still getting close? Okay, so what are people asking?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  6:16 Yeah, so, you know, I think the the primary things are, will we still have appointments? And the answer is we will eventually have virtual appointments. Although a lot of people will also need to be rescheduled, we don't only take care of kids with diabetes, and there are some conditions that we do need to see face to face. In general though, I think most of our kids with Type One Diabetes will be able to seen by a virtual visit, and we'll talk a little bit about that in just a minute. We do still have nurses answering phone calls in our office, I'm not sure what other offices are doing. So we have nurses answering phone calls. We have a physician that's on call 24 seven for hospital based medicine. And so we will we are creating a schedule. That's why our office is closed. We're working on developing virtual visits. And we've never done this before the platform that atrium uses was originally designed for perhaps five, six pediatricians to use to handle only general pediatric calls. And now this platform is being spread out to be used by pediatric specialists, as well as general pediatricians. And I think more than 100 physicians and, uh, and other providers are going to be on this platform. So we're still learning how to do it. And that's why we canceled appointments for a few weeks, but we will have virtual visits up and running hopefully, by next week, Tuesday,   Stacey Simms  7:34 because we're going to be in that soup, right? Yeah.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:38 Your name on my schedule when I was telling everyone that exactly.   Stacey Simms  7:43 Alright, well, I won't call your office and ask what you're doing with me. I will let them reach out to us. When you're talking about virtual and again, this is kind of specific to your office. I don't even know yet. Do we on the other side have to do anything yet or you'll read? Yeah, we'll watch. No,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  7:58 we we Will for our type one diabetes patients will likely have a medical assistant call you first maybe on the day of the appointment maybe beforehand to review any changes in medications, any new allergies, the types of things they usually ask you while they were checking you back in. And then in preparation for the phone call with a physician, we are going to ask you to gather diabetes data for us whether it's a pump, download a CGM, download a meter download, and that'll be the main thing that we as physicians will review. So we'll tell you more. We'll try to talk through a little bit more about how to do that. Although hopefully you all know how to do that. The physician will also will hopefully again, this is all new. We'll have all that information online.   Stacey Simms  8:42 If you're watching, you kind of saw me roll my eyes there. Dr. Vanderwel knows this but it's a little embarrassing to admit, I never upload anything in advance. I tell them please don't be mad at me. I think the only time I ever logged into T Connect is to upgrade the pump. So   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  8:57 well you know, I think the thing is, we We'll be able to get that data without, without advanced uploading, I don't want to come that 100%. But I think if your data is there, we should be able to access it. But we're gonna learn that over the next three to five days.   Stacey Simms  9:12 That's what we're all be learning it, I am sure. Um, in terms of questions that people have in between these appointments, you know, one that came to mind this morning was, you know, if I, if I need refills, if I'm worried about supplies, are you here? I know most people just call their physician pharmacies are open, but are you hearing anything about issues, shortages, that sort of thing with supplies   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  9:35 whatsoever, and I hope we don't, um, you know, Covid 19 is going to affect people in every sector. And I hope we don't get to a stage where there's problems with pharmaceutical production at this point, there is no anticipated problem with production of insulin production of test strips production with any other diabetes related spies. And so No, I do not foresee that as a problem. I know there's the temptation to stockpile And that's one of the things that we've seen in the general public, obviously, with toilet paper, hand sanitizer, etc. And there's that desire Should I stockpile my insulin? Well, we can't commit insurance fraud. And so as physicians, I cannot write a prescription to your pharmacy saying suddenly that a child who used to use 20 units of insulin a day is all of a sudden requiring 200 units of insulin per day, so that your insurance will cover additional insulin, I can't do that. That's illegal. And so we will be honest with the pharmacies. I'm not sure how you can get extra insulin just in case that might be something better to work with your pharmacy in terms of what they will cover or what they will allow your insurance to cover. But I do not foresee a deficiency in any diabetes related supplies.   Stacey Simms  10:45 Let's jump in and talk about Covid 19 best that we can. One of the questions that seems to be coming up over and over again is you know, we've all seen in the early days of this at least, the charts that came in from China and Italy saying they're the comorbidities and diabetes Sure, can you do you know what that means? Because one of the questions was, is it all type two is it you know, work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  11:06 Right so earlier this morning I saw some data recently published in the New England Journal of Medicine related to the children 10 and under. And the only fatality in the Chinese data that was published was a 10 month old, who had had intussusception, which is basically when your intestines telescope on each other. And so the child was already previously ill because of that, and there were no other fatalities in that population under age 10. I do not have the data for other age groups stratified out but that was what I saw on the New England Journal of Medicine earlier today. When the word diabetes is used, obviously, that is a big word and often refers to both type one and type two diabetes. And so as far as I can tell from all the Chinese data, when it says diabetes is referring to the big group of both and everyone's worried at greater risk, because I have type one diabetes, or let's face it type two diabetes? And the answer is, we do not think that people with type one or type two diabetes are at any greater risk of contracting Covid 19 than the general population. So there's no increased risk of picking up this virus as far as we know. Now data changes every day. That's the caveat here. We are still learning but at this point, there's no reason to think that people with diabetes type one or two are more likely to get Covid 19. Just like any virus, whether it's the flu, whether it's the cold, being sick, when you have diabetes makes taking care of diabetes more difficult, and we see that frequently during flu season, that when people are feeling sick, and they may not be eating or drinking quite as well, they have the predisposition to go into diabetic ketoacidosis. And so my answer to how do people with type one diabetes are people who have children who have type one diabetes, better take care of their children, either if They have been exposed to the virus or if they are already showing symptoms of a viral infection. And the answer is us you're sick. And by Sick Day protocol, I mean check for ketones. Even if your child's blood sugar is 124, you can still get ketones if they are not eating or drinking very well. So remember, ketones are what happened, or what happens when your muscles become desperate for energy. And usually with people with diabetes that happens when you don't have enough insulin in your system to help your body take the sugar out of the bloodstream and get it into the muscle cell to be used for energy. But sometimes ketones can happen if you're just not eating or drinking very well. And so ketones can happen even with a blood sugar 124 if your child has been sick, or if she is vomiting or if he is not eating very well because he feels sick. ketones also can be happening more often in the presence of fever. So although as far as we know right now, nausea and vomiting are not necessarily symptoms of Covid 19 like they are the flu. For example, fever is When you develop fever, that can also cause greater metabolic need, your muscles become more desperate for energy that can lead to the production of ketones and cause an increased risk of diabetic ketoacidosis. So my summary is related to kovat, 19 and diabetes, your child is not at greater risk, their immune system should still work just fine to fight off the virus However, they are at greater risk for developing diabetic ketoacidosis in the context of a viral illness.   Stacey Simms  14:29 A couple of follow up questions on that with keep checking for ketones. Do you recommend a keto blood meter? Are you comfortable with sticks and easily?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  14:40 Yeah, I mean, most people check urine for ketones a blood ketone meter can give you more up to date information, for example, that tells you what's in your blood sugar level. That's what's in your blood right now. Whereas your urine is often saying, well, we made this urine an hour ago and it's been sitting in the bladder for an hour so it's not as up to date as before. glucometer as a blood ketone meter is, but still I think you can get the information you need from, from urine, ketosis, I don't feel you have to rush out and get a blood ketone checker just because of our current situation. I mean,   Stacey Simms  15:13 I'll be honest with you, and I don't know if this is true confessions time, we've never we've never purchased a blood ketones. This was the time I thought maybe, you know, the back of my head was like, should I get on Amazon? And then I got on Amazon, and there were so many and I thought, oh my god, I'm gonna buy a terrible one. So, um, stick with what we know maybe for me?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:31 Yeah, I mean, there are many other things to worry about. And if you felt comfortable checking your child's urine for ketones, there's no need to suddenly change to use a blood glucose blood ketone meter.   Stacey Simms  15:42 Well, he's 15. So maybe,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  15:43   Stacey Simms  15:46 I'm sorry, this if you're just joining us, we did have a bunch of disclaimers that this is not medical advice you should be taking personally, but this is my son's pediatric endocrinologist. So I might sneak in some personal questions. We'll see. But the follow up question. fever. And then I'm going to ask you that question about repro fantasy. Before I even get to that one, do you recommend? I've heard that sometimes it's better to let the fever go, you know, not to 104 but to 101, things like that.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  16:17 That is a great question Stacy and I am no longer a general I should say this. I am board certified in general pediatrics, but I have not practiced general pediatrics for 15 years. However, that all being said, fevers makes you uncomfortable. When your temperature is high, you don't feel good, but many people are excessively afraid of fever as something that can hurt you, either in the short term or the long term and in general fever just makes you uncomfortable. So when we're sick, and we have a fever, we often for other illnesses have taken an antibiotic whether it's acetaminophen, whether it's ibuprofen, and what some, some French suggested Scientists have suggested is that ibuprofen and other anti inflammatories may blunt your immune response as of right now that information what's the exact word I had it pulled up is still up for debate. It is not necessarily something that is. That is a stocking answer that we say you must not use ibuprofen in the case of a fever related to Covid 19 unproven was the word I was looking for unproven so let's let's get the elephant out of the bag. What is killing people with Covid 19 is not fever. What is killing people with Covid 19 is respiratory distress is the inability to get breath in and children with diabetes are at no greater risk for developing that than children who don't have diabetes when it comes terms in terms of managing fever. Yes, ibuprofen is a anti inflammatory, ibuprofen at this point. We don't know if it's safe or not. My recommendation, though, is is to say, you know, we want to make sure you're drinking. We want to make sure you can keep fluids down. And if you are so uncomfortable that you can't drink or keep fluids down because of the high fever, then yes, we probably should treat the fever and at first maybe you treat with IV or with acetaminophen. But if all you have is ibuprofen, and you're you're miserable, at this point, it's still unproven that ibuprofen will make Covid 19 worse or prevent you to impair your ability to fight it off.   Stacey Simms  18:27 Well, and will continue to follow that obviously,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:29 just new information.   Stacey Simms  18:31 It's unproven, but I mean, I can't lie. I still you know, I take ibuprofen here and there I immediately was like, No, because it's it's scary.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  18:39 Sure. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  18:41 I went and checked everything in the house. How much acetaminophen do we have? What What else? Oh, because acetaminophen isn't so many cold medicines, sir. Let me ask you that people with type one and type two people with diabetes. Let's just say that who use CGM know that with Tylenol acetaminophen come warnings with death. calm. Now my understanding is Dexcom je six you can take 1000 milligrams of Tylenol safely by safely means it's not going to burn out your sensor you can is nothing to do with them anything beyond the sensor we're talking about here is that what you were understanding?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:15 My understanding and just for clarification even in previous versions of Dexcom if you're using g five if you're using g four acetaminophen does not prevent it from working. It just may mean the readings it gives you are not as accurate as they might be without acetaminophen in your system. But that's also my understanding for the for the Dexcom g six,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:35 just think or stick. Agreed?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  19:37 Yeah, if you feel your ducks comm isn't accurate whether you have acetaminophen on board or whether you don't have acetaminophen on board, poke your finger.   Stacey Simms  19:46 Right? Which means that a lot of people need to make sure that not only do we have a meter and test strips, but that we have the batteries or that our stuff is plugged in because um I know A lot of us are very reliant on CGM. Let's just put it that way. And I'm looking at my phone, not to be rude, but to look at the next few questions. So as you're watching,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:10 I know you go Okay, fair enough.   Stacey Simms  20:15 That was more for these guys. But seriously, um, I'm curious too, with, with not knowing when many of us will see our children's, endo next, or if we're adults are watching. Are there things that we should be doing? To check in between? I mean, I know that I'll give you an example. You always check penny for you know, scar tissue.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:40 Right? Like lipohypertrophy. Exactly. Okay,   Stacey Simms  20:42 so go for it. Tell us what we do. Yeah,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  20:43 so, so lipohypertrophy is when you will put your infusion side in the same place too often, or you give yourself insulin injections in the same place too often. And the downside of that is not only does it look funny, but it can prevent the insulin that you give yourself from getting into The bloodstream, and then it doesn't get from the bloodstream to the eventual target tissues of liver and muscle. So if you are thinking you're giving yourself a bolus, but you're giving it giving it into an area of life or hypertrophy, then perhaps the insulin isn't doing what it needs to do. And that can obviously be dangerous and increase your risk of decay. So, yes, I do think that parents should be checking your child for life or hypertrophy in the same way that their endocrinologist probably does regularly. And the thing that I would probably say is, the easiest way to do is just make sure it doesn't feel like a tricep, you know, flex your tricep right here. And you can feel a little bit of muscle tissue right there. And light by hypertrophy feels a lot like that. It feels kind of clumpy. It doesn't hurt the child, but it feels it like oh, it seems like there's a big clump of subcutaneous tissue here. You can even see like oh hypertrophy a lot of times and I might wind up doing that when I'm doing virtual visits is just have the kid in the room and say, Show me where you Put your palm but just look to make sure it's not looking clumpy now, I'm not going to do anything. Like make them show me their family or anything like that. But you know, their arms, their belly, that sort of stuff. Yeah, I might do that at the opposite.   Stacey Simms  22:13 That makes a lot of sense, though. You know. And another thing I was looking at my list of questions when we were talking about supplies, one of the interesting things is people seem to be posting quite a bit about not being able to get those little alcohol wipes. Yeah, we haven't used those in a very   religiously for years. Sure, sure. Is that something people need to be concerned about? Should I be getting out the rubbing alcohol and checking to make sure as a pediatric   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  22:36 endocrinologist I should say the standard line Yes, the proper protocol for either giving an insulin injection or putting a new infusion site in or putting a new Dexcom in or poking a finger is to wipe that area with alcohol first. That being said, You are probably not the only family. I take care of Stacy where your child does not use rubbing out Color an alcohol swab every time. So yes, we want clean skin. We know that giving an injection or anything that punctures the skin. without alcohol, there is a slightly increased risk of getting an infected site. There's bacteria everywhere. Obviously there are viruses everywhere. But when we're thinking about using alcohol swabs, we're thinking about killing the bacteria on the skin or removing the bacteria from the skin so that you can give a cleaner injection, or a cleaner infusion site or a cleaning Dexcom or cleaner Dexcom site etc. So if you can't get alcohol swabs, you still need to give your child insulin and you still need to figure out what her blood sugar is. So all in all, what's better to give a shot with alcohol to give a shot without alcohol swabs or to give no shot at all. They go in that order best is with second best is without third best is no insulin at all in that's not best. That's bad news. So   Stacey Simms  24:00 So, you know, another thing, that I have a whole bunch of questions here that I'm trying to get to the right order to go in,   when, when we're talking about these in between visits for a long time, and again, I know that you may be limited as what you can say, because we are talking in official capacity. So some of this is on, you know, I don't say on the record off the record, but you'll understand. So there are a lot of people who are very comfortable adjusting pump settings. Sure. There are a lot of people who aren't, you know, what's your advice for a family? And this was a question that came up in our group. I'll say, Michelle asked this, how do you advise or empower, newer diagnose parents on taking pump settings into their own hands? You know, are there ways to tell when something is a basal issue or a QRP? Sure.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  24:46 Yeah, so first of all, I'm speaking for myself, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there. I feel comfortable with my patients adjusting insulin settings without my permission, you do not need my permission to adjust your pump settings or your insulin dose. Is, however other pediatric endocrinologist may feel differently. I'm not speaking for all of us. In general, if your basal rate needs adjustment, that means that your child has been going a long time without eating. And her blood sugar either goes up, or her blood sugar goes down in the absence of all other factors. Best time is overnight. So if your kids waking up with a high blood sugar in the morning or higher than it was when he went to bed, that probably means he needs more basal. If he's waking up with a lower blood sugar than it was when he went to bed in the absence of the correction dose at nighttime, then chances are he needs less basal insulin. And kind of the same thing goes for carb coverage, if you notice every time after a meal, and I'm not talking about just that postprandial spike on a Dexcom because that is related not to the insulin quantity but to the timing of the insulin absorption. But let's say two hours, three hours, three and a half hours after every meal. If your kids blood sugar is going up that means That she needs a stronger carbohydrate factor. And remember, Stacy, I know you've written about this in your book, the factor is the denominator, right. So of insulin to carb ratio of one to 10 is stronger than insulin to carb ratio of one to 15. It's the denominator of the fraction. Similarly, for the instant correction factor, if you're giving a dose of insulin through the pump, or through the sliding scale that you've written down, and your child's blood sugar doesn't come far enough, universally, don't make adjustments based on just one thing, let her wait for a pattern to develop. But if you're noticing that you're that your child's blood sugar never comes down far enough after you give them a correction dose. That means let's make the correction factor stronger. And by that I mean maybe change it from 60 to 50, or from 50 to 40 or from 40 to 35, etc. Vice versa, if you are scared to to give a correction dose because your child's blood sugar because it doesn't come in or comes down too far after for extra dose that make it a little weaker. And by doing that I've seen baby move it from 50 to 60 From 60 to 75, or 75 to 90, etc.   Stacey Simms  27:04 So if you're watching this, and I covered my face and kind of made a joke, the reason is because in the book, I do talk about this, but I have definitely made the mistake of thinking that a smaller number meant less insulin.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  27:18 So it is confusing. It is it, just think about it in terms of the denominator of the fraction, a half a pizza is bigger than a quarter of a pizza, even though two is smaller than four.   Stacey Simms  27:30 You know, and that brings, I know this, this interview is getting a little bit away from Covid 19. But we've got plenty of time to talk about that. The just a follow up on the calling your physician and you know, there are a lot of wonderful presenters like yourself, who will take a call every day for a month from a nervous mom of a newly diagnosed kid. But there are a lot of parents who worry that they're bothering the doctor for things like that. Obviously, it never bothered me. But all kidding aside, can you assure people that if they're calling for instance adjustments that   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  28:00 it's okay. Yeah, it is absolutely. Okay. Like I said, I want you to feel empowered to do that on your own. But if you need help, we are there to help. And my office still has CDs answering the phone during daytime hours, you can take blood sugars and help make adjustments. The physician on call over the night or weekend can also do that, although it's probably easier to do that during office hours while we have CDs answering the phone because they can pull up the child's chart whereas if you call me on a Saturday afternoon, I'm not going to have your child's chart at my fingertips to make those adjustments. So yes, but please don't feel you are on your own. And please don't feel you are bothering us. Yes, when we take call. We also are seeing patients in the hospital and we are usually seeing patients in the office although now we may be doing more virtual visits. We are doing other things. It's not like all we do is just feel phone calls. We are doing other things and so we appreciate that one. If it's not an emergency, if it can wait until morning. That'd be great to wait until more But there are emergencies. And we also understand that when people have a child with diabetes, they worry at three o'clock in the morning, and if they're worried enough, please call us. Yes, that's what we're there for. But remember, we also are not general pediatricians. And so when it comes to Covid 19, if you are worried that potentially your child may have been 19, that is a better question for your primary care provider rather than us. We are not your general pediatricians. However, if you're feeling like your child was getting sick, and you're having trouble managing their blood sugar's because they're sick. That's a question for us.   Stacey Simms  29:32 Well, and that was what I was just going to ask if someone says, Oh my gosh, I think my child has Covid 19 and they have type one diabetes, what would you advise them to do?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  29:43 I think we're still learning more and more, you know, testing is not really readily available and everything that I've heard about testing to this point, it's been difficult to get a test now hopefully, that'll change soon. Um, and However, our primary care providers are at the frontline of giving of getting people coded testing. figuring out who needs to be tested? So I would defer that question to your primary care office because they will have the most up to date answers about whether you should simply, well, we should all be quarantined ourselves, right, we should all be practicing social isolation, but especially if you have any suspicion that you or your child has Covid 19 you need to stay in your house. And you do not need to expose any other people to this. So in that situation, though, whether do you bring your kid for a Covid 19 test? Or do you just try to isolate them and pray that they get better and again, they should I mean, kids with type one diabetes are not at greater risk for developing Covid 19 or having the respiratory complications, it just makes them more likely to get ketones. So anyway, um, if your kids healthy enough to just stay at home and continue that quarantine. Right now, that's probably what we're recommending, although things may change anytime,   Stacey Simms  30:57 and I guess you've answered this, but I'm going to ask them Again, just in a different way, to be perfectly clear the evidence as we're speaking right now, would say that if a child comes down with Covid 19 has type one diabetes, there is nothing different   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  31:11 to ground at home. Just Just differently from a diabetes management perspective perspective, make sure they're hydrated check for ketones if they're actually acting sick, even if their blood sugar seems fine. Um, follow your sick day protocol. But yes, nothing different compared to your other children who might not have type one diabetes.   Stacey Simms  31:32 Um, something else I wanted to ask. Gosh, I should have closed the blinds. Whoo. It's getting hot in here. One of the things I meant to ask when you talked about the time in between visits because I had a lot of questions on this in our Facebook group. People are saying like me, Benny's appointment was supposed to be in two weeks, we'll do a virtual visit, but I assume we're not going to get that a one. See that? We usually get quarterly.   Do you? Look we have a CGM so I can see what it probably is. But do you ever recommend a homemade one T tests.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  32:01 Okay, you and I, about a one says yes, yes. So again, I'm not speaking for every pediatric endocrinologist out there, but people definitely overrate the importance of A1C, and so many people come into my office on pins and needles because they're so nervous about what that number is going to be in. As we've said before, you've heard me say it. And I think that's one of the reasons you and I get along so well is because we have a similar perspective, and everyone has different perspectives. But my perspective is, the ANC is just a number. And it's right now the best number we can get in a six minute turnaround test, tell us to summarize blood sugars, but it's just that it's just a number. And as we have more CGM data available, I think we're going to learn that time and range, maybe an even better predictor of avoidance of long term complications, because that's what we're talking about, right? We're talking about not necessarily trying to get your kids A1C to be less than x. We We are talking about trying to help your child be as healthy as she can be when she is 85 or 90 years old, right? And so it's not about the agency, there are plenty of kids I take care of where I'm worried. This kids having way too many low blood sugars, it's affecting their lifestyle. And I'd be much happier if they're a once you jumped up a half point or a full point if they had fewer low blood sugars. So my perspective on it once you may be different than many of my colleagues, I don't think it's worth it for you to check anyone see in the middle of between office visits, especially if you have the capability of looking at a continuous glucose monitoring system that can tell you time and rich.   Stacey Simms  33:38 Is it homey? Once the test even accurate? I've always wondered about   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  33:41 Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I have not seen I'm sure there are studies out there comparing the home a woman c test to a serum drawn that means coming from your arm type of A1C test versus a finger poke A1C test, which we do in our office. Um, I honestly have not looked at those studies, so I can't answer your question. But my guess is yes, it's probably pretty close. Okay, so   Stacey Simms  34:04 I have another one. You know, all these people in my group know you very well. And the question, I've lost the question, Where did I put it? Ah, here it is. Okay. So it's a two parter. The first part is all about technology. Have you mentioned time and range? You mentioned CGM advice for parents. This is a question who says, Are we overly reliant on technology? Or is that a thing? Does she need to worry about being isolated? If something doesn't work?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  34:35 Yeah, I mean, you use what you have. I mean, we didn't have dex comes when Benny was first diagnosed. We didn't have insulin pumps, when I was, you know, or there were they were out there, but they were not commonly used when I was a resident. Um, when my senior partner Dr. Parker was doing his medical school, they didn't even have finger stick blood sugars, right. And so diabetes management is changing and we not relying on technology, but the technology has been good. And it's helped make diabetes easier, not a cure, but a little easier unless you become a slave to that technology. And you can definitely overreact to the readings on a Dexcom. I know plenty of people who will not put their phone away because they always want to know what every second what their child's blood sugar is. And that's not healthy either.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:22 I know what you're talking about.   Stacey Simms  35:26 I'm only half kidding. But yeah, nothing really can be a problem. I think the bottom line for that too, is if as you're listening, you think, gosh, I don't even know where our meter is. Or do I have test strips? You know, that's the kind of thing that you'll definitely want   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:40 to check but you do need to have a beat. You need to have a meter even when your child wears a Dexcom or a Libra or Medtronic CGM. You will need a backup way to check blood sugar. So yes, please have a meter and strips and lancets that's the finger poker available.   Stacey Simms  35:55 lancets we all have 5000 of those.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:57 Yes.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  35:59 Last question was Do bow ties help you in your practice?   Stacey Simms  36:03 choice only.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  36:04 So, my grandfather always wear bow ties, you actually might be able to see him right over here at Grand Prix right over there over my shoulder. Always wear bow ties. Um, and so I got that from him. Um, and someone said, I looked smarter when I bought a bow tie. And I was like, you know, great. I like looking smart, even though I so, but to be honest, yes, um, especially in this age of viral transmission, you're probably not going to see me wear a tie when we do a virtual visit. And you may not see me wear a tie as much in the office in the near future. The reason that many of the pediatricians through Boston Children's Hospital other of the older pediatricians wear bow ties rather than long straight ties is because there's less germs from this than there are from something dangling and so I will for virtual visits, I probably will not I almost certainly will not have a bow tie on and for the for visiting the office, I probably won't either just to have one less thing on mice around me that can collect your   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:06 which is your grandfather in the medical field or, you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:09 know, furniture industry.   Stacey Simms  37:13 All right. So before I let you go, because this is the first time I've ever had you on the podcast, hopefully not the last. But you know, it was in the interest of kind of feeling a little strange about, you know, that kind of relationship, my son's endocrinologist and that sort of thing. But now, I this has been great.   I'm curious, you know, you've been in practice for us at 15 years. I finished   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:34 my fellowship in 2005. So this is this will be my 15th. year as of July one or the end of my 15th year.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:42 Yeah, we caught you   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:44 right at the beginning. Right, exactly. You were one of my may not my very first but one of my first patients now, I shouldn't say that. But yeah,   Stacey Simms  37:51 I mean, in the first couple of years,   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  37:52 right, exactly in the first few years. Exactly. So   Stacey Simms  37:54 I'm curious, you know, it's hard to sum up in just a few minutes, but from then to now. already mentioned the technology have things. It's kind of a pet question. I was gonna say, Have you seen things change, but I really want to know, like, how is it to be a pediatric endocrinologist from then to now? I mean, it's got to be difficult with insurance things and all that sort of stuff. But are you still happy? This is a field you chose?   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  38:20 Yes. I love my job. I love taking care of kids with diabetes. I kids with diabetes are only about 30 to 35% of my patient volume. And so I take care of 60% of other kids that I also love taking care of. It's the dream job. And yeah, I did not grow up thinking I wanted to be a pediatric endocrinology. I didn't know I really wanted to be a doctor. When I was in high school. I mean, there are some people that say they knew it from age two for me, that was not the case. But every step along the way, I've kind of thought yeah, maybe I do want to be a doctor. And then I go to medical school and yeah, maybe I do want to be a pediatrician and then I do my pediatric rescue. See and yeah maybe I do want to become a pediatric specialist etc so each step has kind of led me along the way and it's been a great choice I love taking care of your own as well as the all the other kids that I take care of. It's a dream job except for the paperwork.   Stacey Simms  39:15 Alright, so I'll check in with you again if I can during this time who knows how long we're going to be at home you guys doing? Okay, you can have your own everybody   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  39:22 do everyone's healthy. You know? I mean I I'm worried I mean, not about my kids not necessarily about my health I mean when one of those middle age brackets right but I'm worried about my parents, my grandparents who are still alive, you know, I'm, I am worried about I'm worried about the economy of not only our country, but the world I'm worried about, about the financial well being of my patients, even though I'm you can kind of get the sense I'm not really all that worried about the health of my patients with Covid 19 as long as they Following Sick Day protocols and but that doesn't mean go out and get exposed because obviously we need to contain this virus. I am worried about our world. But I'm not necessarily worried about the children that I take care of related to cope with it and I just don't want them spreading this terms to their grandparents.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:17 I think you're absolutely right on that. Well, we will leave it there. And hopefully we can check back in and I will see you for a virtual visit. I'm sure we'll be hearing from   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:28 that.   Stacey Simms  40:31 But I do appreciate it. Thank you so much.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:33 Yes, thanks for getting the word out states you remember, wash your hands stay inside socially distinct yourselves.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:41 But don't forget to call your parents all the people you love.   Dr. Mark Vanderwel  40:50 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All Rights Reserved or wrongs avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

- Paul Ashley Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun.  If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.   INTRO Paul Ashley is a Vice President and Managing Director at First Person Advisors.  He has also lived most of his life with depression and, at the time of this podcast recording, has just published an article taking on the stigma associated with depression.   Liesel Mertes What is the American 24th twenty first century associations and stigma that go with depression and particularly for you as a white male? Yeah. How do you feel it?   - Paul Ashley Well, I think I've blown through some of that. I think I've realized the stigma that I believed existed. Maybe isn't true. But let's say let's say I didn't yet. So what is the low level stigma? I think that as a man, we're maybe called to be brave and strong.   - Paul Ashley Maybe it's different than feminine, right? Female.   - Paul Ashley As a successful business person, what do you have to complain about as a person and business? You can't show people you're weak because weakness will get preyed upon. I think those some mixture of all that is a stigma.   But Paul is more than just his depression.  He is married to Amy and the father of five children, including twins.  And he has three dogs.  And a fish.    - Paul Ashley Technically the fish's name is Mr. Unicorn Pants. Because it spent some time in Amy's classroom at school and sometimes at home. But at home I call Mr. Bubbles.   He is also a wine expert, which has a proper French name that I have been struggling to pronounce.    - Liesel Mertes Tell me a little bit more about. I'm not even going to pronounce this word correctly. I only see it written being at O somewhere.   Yay! Oh, say it again. Some of yeah. Some it s a French word. Just super friendly French words. Tell me more.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. So that's part of what's helped in my journey is having things that I enjoy in life. And one of them is I I enjoy wine, education and wine knowledge. And officially a few years ago I earned what's through the courts of master sommeliers is my level one designation.   - Paul Ashley Sharing wine and food like is there a better way to have community, you know, good people, good wine, good food and that wonderful banquet table, by the way. And in that order, people, food and wine like you put those three together. You're going to have a great time.     Paul takes trips down to Haiti with Filter of Hope, to address Water Insecurity.  In addition to his international travels, Paul is raising money for Cancer Research this month as a Man of the Year candidate, more on that later.    And as we begin this important conversation, I want to thank our sponsors.  FullStack PEO is a full-service benefits firm that provides great services and packages for small companies and entrepreneurs.  This month, we are also welcoming Motivosity as a friend and sponsor of the podcast.  Motivosity is a peer recognition and employee feedback software that will have your employees more motivated than ever.  Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Contact Handle with Care for interactive, powerful sessions that equip your people to competently offer care when it matters most.    As I mentioned, Paul also become more vocal about his journey with depression.  As we began to talk, Paul memorably described depression like a dog.    - Paul Ashley It's. It sort of has. You've ever seen the World Health Organization video they put out on depression, though? With the metaphor that it's a black dog. Mm hmm.   - Liesel Mertes No, tell me more.   - Paul Ashley Well, so this idea is that this black dog follows you everywhere in life when you have depression.   - Paul Ashley And sometimes the black dog is this massive creature that stands over. You like foreboding. Other times, it's this little puppy that's in your lap that you can control. And it's he's always with you, right? Well, I sort of feel like it's helped make the black dog be like, yeah.   - Paul Ashley T-Mobile doesn't cure it. The black dog is never gonna go away. Not cuddly. But yeah. Just survivable. Yeah. Yeah.   Like president that present but not out of control. Right. Not a slobbery, you know, vicious dog.   - Liesel Mertes Well you said was it your teenage years that you.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. It started when I was 17 to 17. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that.   - Paul Ashley So growing up in a in a you know, in a house that was imperfect as most homes are, even the home I have with my wife and it's we we aren't perfect. You are still. Yeah, right.   - Liesel Mertes You do?   - Paul Ashley Yes. What a coincidence. Especially the greater number of children you have, the greater chances for imperfection.   You think? Yeah. Because you have more human fallibility mixing together.   [00:01:42.420] - Paul Ashley You know, I in really quite frankly, family history is is very present on both maternal and paternal side of the family with mental health issues, depression, anxiety, other stuff.   - Paul Ashley And I, you know, was dealing with teen angst as one deals with and I can I can see it as plain as day. We were I was I was driving somewhere in the evening in my hometown of Columbia, Missouri. And there was an intersection. That's actually not too far from University, Missouri, where this one road comes to a T. And on the other side of that, T is a limestone, you know, cut out from where they blasted to have to have the road built.   - Paul Ashley Right. And I remember turning onto the one road that tease out there and thinking, I'm just going to gun it and just like hit the wall and make it all go away.   - Paul Ashley And I realized, whoa, that is that's a suicidal thought, that self-harm like that's not that's not good. That's real bad. I was like, what is causing that?   - Paul Ashley And I reached. Luckily for me, thank God, my best friend growing up, best man at my wedding.   - Paul Ashley His father is one of the most world renowned child psychiatrist.   - Paul Ashley And he his actual specialty is working with children in war and where they've gone through massive events, things like Syria. And remember, in the 90s, Bosnia and Herzegovina and all that they dealt with, he did a ton of work with the U.N. and he's just unbelievably gifted. Well, you know, fearful as a 17 year old who just didn't like didn't know what all this is about. I called I called him and said, I need help. And he said, listen, I normally don't treat people that close to me, but I'll take care of you.   - Paul Ashley And he did and sort of started me back to stability pretty quickly. Once a cult classic story.   - Liesel Mertes So a childhood context of, you know, your parents having their own mental health issues. Did you feel like you had? Because it strikes me as particularly self-aware in some ways that you at 17 were able to recognize that thought is damaging, feel like you had agency to reach out to someone. Was that formed? Did you have an awareness with your parents like, oh, they are going through a mental health episode or because I'm struck for some children, like they just internalize that as I deserve what's going on or I'm the cause of that.   - Liesel Mertes Like what sort of a formation did your perception as a child have allowed you to reach out the way you did?   - Paul Ashley What a brilliant question, because I don't know that I ever have ever thought about that. You know, it's something I was able to do. And so at the same time, I think what what your question helps me think about and realize is that as imperfect as some of the upbringing was and as as much pain as can get caused in the household, my parents, my dad has passed away. My mom still living. Did a lot, you know.   - Paul Ashley They gave me enough there was enough love in that house. There's, you know, everybody's doing their best that they probably not only do they give me the genetic disposition to have the problem and some of the triggers that would exist to create it. I'm not blaming them, don't get me wrong. But they also gifted me with the bravery to self-identify and be self-aware at the same time. Isn't that interesting that you both would coexist?   - Liesel Mertes Did you see some of that bravery for them in your upcoming light at the time?   - Paul Ashley No. As I now, as an adult, as a as a parent of five kids, I I see it. I see the bravery in hindsight, but not the.   - Paul Ashley That's certainly not in the moment. Yeah. You know, there's more blame and payment pain and blame than there was. Looking back and saying, you know, bless them for. Yeah. But they were able to do well.   - Liesel Mertes I mean, that's such an age where you're just beginning to make sense of who you are. Is there an emerging in the washer and what you take from your parents, what you choose to leave behind? Do you remember that as you're beginning to work with this friend's father of just I imagine I could feel really tumultuous, like my parents have given this to me or they've wounded me in this way. Do feel free.   - Paul Ashley Yeah, I think there's a definite wounding, you know, the wounds, wounds as you have as a child. And, you know, even today it almost 43. I'll be 43. And in April this year, happy. Almost. Thank you for almost having a birthday.   - Paul Ashley Yes. I think there's still that childhood wound that doesn't fully go away. Not at all. Does it fully go away? Yeah. It's just it's hard. You know, even though I I'm blessed that I've been connected with Cindy Rep. Ragsdale. Yeah. You know, Cindy.   I do. And and her husband. Unbelievable artist Kyle, her husband.   - Liesel Mertes My husband and I have gone to marital counseling with Cindy. Well, let's just say I have sat in her office.   - Paul Ashley So this is the Cindy Ragsdale fan club right here.   - Paul Ashley So Cindy and I have been working together for probably a year and a half now, 18 months, pretty consistently. You know, every three weeks, give or take. And, you know, we're, we're, we're going back and dealing with some of those childhood wounds.   - Paul Ashley But the big realization I have from all that is that that the things you did as a child to cope, survive and thrive were were the right things and they were effective. It's as you get later in life and continue to work on yourself and become try to become the whole you that you're supposed to become. You begin to realize that those same skills that were really effective as a child becomes super and potentially super ineffective and damaging as an adult. Right.   - Paul Ashley Right. But there's grace in that. Yeah. Like, that's okay. And you you don't you don't trash the old behavior because it was what you needed at the time. And you just you sort of learned to evolve throughout that process. That's kind of where I'm at right now in terms of that counseling. And, you know, there's bad behaviors that again, sins of the fathers. Right. Like, right. If I don't if I don't do my thing to get healthier, I'm I'm just kicking the can down the genetic stream to my kids and their kids and their kid's kids.   - Liesel Mertes Well, it's it's a brave and painful journey and not be able to do that work. And like you said, to to work is not to evade, but to sidestep some of this weirdly inside eddies that are all about like, oh, man, I'm so messed up and I've been messed up since I was six. And I started doing, you know, this thing to survive and to be able say, you know what, I'm recognizing that that exactly what you said was what I needed to survive at that time.   - Liesel Mertes But that doesn't mean that I, as a choosing an aware person, have to keep being hijacked. Right. That pattern.   - Liesel Mertes Exactly. And breaking. It's not easy because it served you well, right? It's certainly not your neural pathways.   - Paul Ashley Ray, there's some neural pathways that are pretty solid. Yeah. Based on survival.   MUSICAL TRANSITION - Paul Ashley And so it was like I thought of this thing. It was crazy. Help me. That's all I had, which was all I needed at the time. And I think that was what I've taken from that is I've as time has gone on, I've been more willing to be more public about my journey. I think to realizations. Number one, being able to say this is this this journey with depression has existed in my life continuously since I was 17 and now at 43, realizing it's probably never going to be cured.   - Paul Ashley Air quotes inserted here, right. Like it's not going to go away. It's probably always going to be present. OK, so relax. Except that doesn't mean you're broken. Doesn't mean you're messed up. It just means that's true. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes If someone were to say, well, I'll feel sad sometimes. Yeah. How does depression feel or look different? Like what are the undertones? Does depression for you? Come on, quickly. Is it cyclical? How is that looking for someone who would say it hasn't been a part of my story?   - Paul Ashley Yeah, I mean, sadness exists in this world no matter what your clinical background is, you know? But there are sad things that happen all the time. Life events and and sad, you know, occurrences, I would say. For me, depression is more like the consistent who who I am. And I don't know that it's cyclical. It's it's always present. But it does have general peaks and valleys. And a lot of those peaks and valleys depend on sort of what I'm doing to either take care or not take care of myself.   - Liesel Mertes Right. So when you're not taking care of yourself, what does that look like and where do you find yourself going?   - Paul Ashley Problem biggest indicator for me of how I feel when those, you know, sort of the values are more present is our mornings where it feels like it is every fiber in my being to get out of bed, you know, to simply put the feet on the floor and get out of bed and face the day like, I don't even want to go to bed. I just want to close my eyes and never get out of that. Get out of bed.   - Paul Ashley And there's been some seasons where I have had I don't have suicidal thoughts. Is there nothing like ideation with a start of a plan like I had when I was 17? But I've have had thoughts at times when those valleys are true.   - Paul Ashley In addition to get out of bed where it is, where I've had some sort of like like man officious was if this life was just over, there would just be this all would be solved. Like the pain would be gone. I'd be fine.   - Liesel Mertes And how does the day progress from there? Where is that reckoning of like, oh, I only want to get out of bed.   - Paul Ashley And there's some days we're all cancel meeting or all. And this doesn't happen anytime recently, but I'll cancel a meeting or, you know, get up at the last possible second.   - Paul Ashley You know, like, can I get 30 more seconds but not facing the world and think the other thing that I see to do is withdraw from mostly with the family, for my wife and my five kids, you know, getting sucked into social media as a escapism. I think that you see a lot of that too little. That's adult a._d._d as well. But the addiction of social media made to be addictive. Right. Like, they literally have designs.   - Liesel Mertes They're not doing this by mistake. So I think those are probably some indicators that I see. Right.   - Paul Ashley What's interesting about, you know, my role professionally is I'm in an advisory role and I'm also in a business development role. And so this idea of being onstage and performing those two can sometimes not mix so well. Luckily, I've been able to, you know, particularly the last 10 years, been pretty successful despite this ever present friend that I call depression.   - Paul Ashley And then in the writing and in in conversation with you and other people, I I phrased it a little differently every time. But I essentially say when I tell people about my journey with depression and oftentimes the reaction I will get, which is not they don't mean harm and it doesn't hurt me, is really. Yeah, you you're depressed or you, you have depression or really this is a journey you've been on. But Paul, you're literally one of the most fun guys to be around in your.   - Paul Ashley So you're the life of the party and you're engaging. And my response to them is, yes, both are true and literally at the same time, which surges like day. Right.   - Paul Ashley And that's a that is that dichotomy is really weird. And it's sort of in some ways beautiful and painful.   I’ve been at events that Paul has hosted.  He is high-energy, with a warm smile and a quick retort:  a talented connector and facilitator.  But this sense of being on came with a cost.    - Paul Ashley I hold it together at work. When those those episodes are seasons are there. And then at home, I'm just darn near worthless.   - Paul Ashley You know, I I see the damage. I see the damage that is done at home. And Amy and I have a really solid marriage and a great relationship. And it's almost 19 years now. But there are you know, there are seasons and days I can't get back. And I think she's as an adult, she's more aware and gracious. I think it's really it's been really hard at times on the kids.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. So. So the kid, the kids of, you know, they're they're resilient. Right. So they'll bounce like the seasons that I've where I've done damage by not being present, you know, much like I'm I'm resilient from my childhood. They're gonna eventually be fine. But it it hurts.   - Liesel Mertes Is there a conversation? Because there is a complex web of modeling, genetics, stress points. That is not something that's easily clinically or relationally passed out. Yeah, but there is an element of, like you said, aspects that run through families that make children predisposed towards certain behaviors and your own journey. How do you find yourself talking and framing life experience around depression or anxiety to your children to equip them in ways that perhaps you were underequipped?   - Paul Ashley I think that's the next horizon for me and my journey. I think where I've been able to be a little more clearer for what I need a little more clear about sharing. Publicly out in the world where I don't have relations, like I think the next horizon is figuring out how to be public with my kids in a way that's productive for them and for me, but also realizing there are five different humans at four different ages. Right. Right.   - Paul Ashley And you know what? I know I've hurt them because I'm a human. And that's what we heard our kids, even though we don't want to. And so what can I do to equip them, to help them understand why that is, how these reasons and things have happened?   - Liesel Mertes Well, I'm struck that as you're living those questions towards their answers. That's his own gift that you give not only to your children to equip them more, but hopefully, you know, it's not just this aspirational like American dream, but to equip our children, to not have to make the same sorts of mistakes in the same kind of way. And then should they have children to equip them to give even more and to be able to pass wisdom down?   - Paul Ashley Yeah. Yeah. And it's a I mean, they're dealing with things as adolescence that I never had to because they're they have a supercomputer in their pocket. Right. I didn't have that.   - Liesel Mertes Well, they have so many feedback mechanisms to when we talk about some of the things that can spark whether anxious episodes are depressing. You know, so often it is based off of perceived social cues. And you're so inundated with so many people's thoughts and likes and dislikes of you all the time. It's just a different psychological reckoning.   - Paul Ashley It's really is. And being a kid isn't easy. Right. Never has been. And I think it's not going to be easier.   - Liesel Mertes Well, and it's always good to remember, I think as a child, you actually as you encounter the escalation of life stresses, you don't actually know if you're going to survive them or not. Like it's only through surviving the chaos of that first time that you can have any sort of sense of building resiliency. And so the the pitch sometimes of of children's emotion to be like, well, they're not sure if they're going to die from this pain or not, you know, and it's it's survivors slowly like and living through it when you are in the midst of.   - Paul Ashley A depressive season. That's the word I use. Season, season. What are some of the things that have proven helpful for you not to, like, suddenly snap out of it, but that are helpful?   - Paul Ashley So I think talking about it is probably the most helpful because that that whole if it's if it's hidden away in its secret, that's where it festers. And, you know, as a person of faith, I think there's a spirituality that there's a kind of spiritual warfare going on there. But if you don't talk about it. You know this. The you know, the devil can steel industry. Right. You know, that's how I would describe it for somebody who's not a spiritual person.   - Paul Ashley I just think things in secret versus things that are brought out in truth are damaging. Yeah, I mean, the secret is damaging. Truth is his life-giving. So talking about it, whether that's a counselor or a confidant and a friend, whatever.   - Paul Ashley It just any conversation, most any conversation should be helpful with somebody you trust. Sleep healthy sleep, which I know is kind of ironic when I say I can't get out of bed. But having a healthy sleep pattern has been helpful.   - Paul Ashley Exercise is, you know, clinically been proven. That is one of the best ways to fight depression, even without medication. You know, the way your body doesn't have to be, you have to be a marathon runner. You know, do.   - Paul Ashley What does that crazy gym thing called   - Liesel Mertes CrossFit.   - Paul Ashley CrossFit, you know, to be a CrossFit expert. Right. You just have to get out and get your heart rate up a little for 20 or 30 minutes every day. And that's the science on that. Is that what it does from an endorphin perspective and sort of a natural defense mechanism to depression?   - Paul Ashley So a little bit of exercise or lot, if that's your thing. Diet certainly plays. You know, if I if I eat foods that are way too regain, you know, eat too late at night. And, you know, if I if I alcohol's at the presence of I, you know, entertaining and I have too much alcohol. That doesn't help. And then, you know, for me, medication and medication is not for everybody. And it's not exact science either.   - Paul Ashley It's a search for what works best.   - Paul Ashley And I think kind of any combination of those have really been helpful.   These are all personal things that Paul does to manage his depression.  However, as a benefits specialist, he also has a lot to add about how employers can help their people as they live with depression.    - Paul Ashley And you know, in the workplace there's all sorts of stuff like, you know, most employers have what's called an EAP   - Liesel Mertes  An Employee Assistance Program.   - Paul Ashley Those EAPs can be super helpful. Yeah. It's like if you're a leader and you have somebody in your team who you think is struggling, you as the leader call that the EAP and say, here's what's happening. And they they these are professionals. They can help you.   - Liesel Mertes So for people who don't know EAP are license agreements with clinical providers to be able to have as a resource for your people to call to get help to hook appointments?   - Paul Ashley All sorts of stuff. Right. Yeah. And they're highly underutilized. Yes, they are. So employers pay for this or it's it's included as a value add in certain products they buy.   Paul also notes how the Canadian system is structured in a way that invites employers to be a part of solutions.    - Paul Ashley They have an opportunity to to create perks that because they're not paying for while they're paying for it, but because they're not providing basic health care.   - Paul Ashley The government takes care of that. They then to attract and retain employees have to be thoughtful about what their different perks are. And one of the things the Canadians have done is and the workforce that the employers believe they have a role to play in helping people with mental health and that it's something that's talked about in the workplace. And it's a benefit that is well thought of. And there's different models that employers provide above and beyond what the health care system does.   - Paul Ashley And so as I go to industry conferences, the Certified Employee Benefits Specialists, which is a designation I have. We do our national symposium or the international symposium every year because our Canadian friends are there. And it's I always stop in and listen to what they're doing on the Canadian track, because what they're talking about in terms of mental health in the workplace is so far ahead of where we are. I mean, they're probably a good 20 years.   - Paul Ashley It's like awareness, specific support systems, counselors on site, incentives to seeking out care, whether it's the stigma is different.   - Paul Ashley I mean, there is probably still a stigma not being in it. It's hard to say, but it feels like the stigma is less if nonexistent.   - Paul Ashley It feels like they invest from an employer perspective in programs, telephonic support apps, you know, various different modules and modes to support people, investment of time and dollars and just a cultural difference as seen as a lot more of a buy in.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes When you're in a depressive season, what are things that people either purposefully or inadvertently say or do like is not helpful?   - Paul Ashley I think I used to be bugged by the the thing of, well, you can't be depressed. You're super happy. Right, like that. That can be hurtful. How?   - Liesel Mertes Tell me more about that. What level does that hit for you?   - Paul Ashley Because it dismisses it dismisses who who I am or whoever that person is. You're saying it, too. It dismisses who their whole self is. Yes. Right. Again, the dichotomy of the fact that I have depression, yet I'm a hoot to be at be at a party with or are both true and at the same time. And if you dismiss either part of that, like all, if you're depressed, you can have fun.   - Paul Ashley If you're fine, you can be depressed. Right. You're basically saying I'm not me, and that's offensive.   - Liesel Mertes What does it feel? Also, I can imagine I could feel like you're invalidating what I'm saying. Yeah. And that what I'm saying could be true. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.   - Paul Ashley But. There's no way you're depressed. You're too much fun to be around. Really? You really want to see that?   - Paul Ashley You really come on over it. Yeah. Come on. Come on over all. You live in me for a while and you'll get me a real back.   But that's over. I'll show you. I'll show you. Depressed. So that can be hurtful.   - Paul Ashley And, you know, ninety nine point nine percent the time people are not trying to trying to be hurtful. I think the other one this just popped in my mind.   - Liesel Mertes Bless these people.   - Paul Ashley So the other one is in Communities of Faith Church and my you know, Christian Church.   - Paul Ashley I've had people say, well, you know, you just pray harder and have a little more faith. God will take away your depression.   - Paul Ashley Do you not think that I haven't already brought this to God and said, if you know, if you 're willing take this away, make this not be part of who I am. Do you not think I haven't tried that? Yeah. Do you not think that hasn't been part of my faith journey? Right. That hurts a lot.   - Paul Ashley Like that is unbelievably right. Because that's not you know, that that's just it's just not it's just not true. I mean, that's just not how God works.   - Liesel Mertes  I think you touched on this, but I don't know if you say it differently. If you could give a greater awareness to people who have not experienced depression. What would you want them to know? What would you feel is really important?   - Paul Ashley That people who are suffering from depression all don't look the same. And. It can be as debilitating as any other chronic illness that you've ever heard of, like diabetes or cancer or things of that nature and that, but it is because it has been stigmatized and it's harder to see.   - Paul Ashley That you sometimes don't even know who's walking around with it. Yeah. And that's just another proof point that we need to just be a little nicer to each other, right? Because you don't know what somebody's carrying around with them.   - Paul Ashley I thought about that thought about any disease, just that, you know, everything you everything you need to know, like you learned in kindergarten. Yeah. Right. It's just be nice.   - Paul Ashley Try to be what good does it quantify a little bit and then come back and then come back and try again.   - Liesel Mertes I'm struck with in your story, as I said, you had a noteworthy ability early on to be seeking community. As a 17 year old, to be not just internalizing it and keeping it private. If someone is listening and they say I know someone who man, they're definitely depressed, but they're, they're not doing some of those things like they're not they're not exercising, making healthy choices. They're not utilizing a counselor. They're depressed. And it's very much something that's tightly held for them.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, for support people. They can often feel at their wits end of wanting to make a difference, but being unable to. What would you say for those people that are listening and they say, I don't know how to help someone like that?   - Paul Ashley Well, they're not an actual clinician. Don't try to be one because you can do more damage than good.   - Paul Ashley And sometimes pursuing them and asking them to do things, you know, that they historically have found to be fond or enjoyable and asking them to do them with you, even if they reject you multiple times, continue to ask, because sometimes all you really need to do when you're in those depressive seasons is simply get out and start living. Go for what if if going for a walk was your thing. And bottom for a walk if you are going to see a movie is their thing environment.   - Paul Ashley But you may have to ask again and again and again and again. Right. And that's something that anybody can do, is join them in something, you know, they enjoy and get them. Just get them moving. Get them living. Be willing to be persistent. Yes. Yes. Yeah.   - Paul Ashley And sometimes if somebody is really suffering, sometimes it's just simply out your relationship simply go into their house and just being present. Mm hmm. Yeah.   - Paul Ashley Just physically present and not. I've never been in that stage where I've that's I've never gotten that bad. But I can see why that would be a spot where if somebody that truly cared about you just showed up and just sat there and didn't necessarily want you to talk, you just weren't alone and you knew somebody cared. Right.   - Paul Ashley That can go a long way. And that can be its own practice of self-discipline and restraint for the person who arrives for the caregiver.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. Oh, yeah. Do not say all the things that are perhaps at the tip of their tongue. Be that advice or you just need to hear this or.   - Paul Ashley Yeah. I don't know that they need to just show up and be silent the whole time. But if the person doesn't wanna engage and talk, I mean you ask a few open to the questions. Right. How are you today. Would you want to do it? Still try to engage them. But if if all you get is silence just being followed, you'd be amazed at how much presence can you help   We are going to move, in a moment, to the three key take-aways from this episode.  But I want to remind you that Paul is currently engaged in a great advocacy campaign to raise money and awareness from now until May 9 of 2020 for the leukemia, lymphoma society man and woman of the year.    - Paul Ashley I t's about raising money for L.A. less. And L.A. Less is an amazing organization that does work in research, huge research, patient advocacy and resource connection for families.   Paul is inspired by the cause and by Finn Stallings, who was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of five and, three and a half years later, Finn just rang the bell to signal that his treatments were over.  I’ve donated to support Paul and Finn and this meaningful research and I am including a link in the show notes so you can too.    MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Paul   If someone confides in you about their depression, listen and resist the urge to say something that minimizes their disclosure.  Paul was especially triggered by statements like “But you are always so happy!”  Which leads to my second point Depression can take all different forms.A person that is often “on” in their job function can be absolutely exhausted at home.  Widening our perception of what depression looks like (and how debilitating it can be) will go a long way to breaking down the stigmas that promote a culture of silence.  If you know someone that is struggling with depression, regularly checking in with them can be really important.Remember, as you make contact with them, they might not respond initially, you might need to continue checking in.  As Paul said, coming alongside them and doing something that they have enjoyed in the past or just showing up to be with them, even if that means not talking for awhile, can powerfully show support.    As we close, I want to thank our sponsors.  FullStack PEO is the premier benefits provider for small businesses and entrepreneurs.  They give you great options, their staff is top-notch.  Let FullStack handle your benefits so you can get back to work.  We are also welcoming Motivosity as a sponsor.  Motivosity is a software solution that creates motivated employees and helps to spread fun and gratitude.  Finally, we are sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  Through interactive workshops and keynotes, we help you offer support when it matters most.   OUTRO   https://pages.lls.org/mwoy/in/indy20/pashley - Man of the Year Campaign https://firstpersonadvisors.com/paul-ashley/ - FirstPerson/Paul Ashley bio page https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCrniLQGYc – WHO Black Dog video https://www.bizvoicemagazine.com/interactive/2020/03/index.html#p=16 – Reducing the Stigma, BizVoice Magazine Article    

Do you find yourself talking to the same people about bourbon every day and realize you talk to them more than your best friends? In fact, maybe they are your new best friends. We're all in that situation now and that's what today's episode is all about. Bourbon has a magical element that seems to bring people together across every demographic to share a common bond. Perhaps you're getting started and want to figure out, how do you find your bourbon people? We sit down with Jeremy Mandel, he's an admin and founder of a few online communities and one of our Patreon supporters. We go through what it takes to find connections with other like minded individuals that can be done online with people around the world or perhaps in your own backyard with meet-up groups, bourbon societies, and much more. You'll come away at the end of this realizing you probably followed some of these same steps without realizing it. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about money. How did you get into bourbon? What was your introduction to the online bourbon communities? Do you ever have events with your bourbon friends? Do certain groups create more bonds than others? What about your local society? Do you think raffle groups encourage camaraderie? What did you think of the Bob Dylan whiskey? Would you rather go to someone's house to drink bourbon or a bar? Can these bourbon networks get bigger? How can people find a bourbon community? What relationships have gotten you a really good bottle of bourbon?   0:00 Are you interested in pairing your expertise on the distilling process with key business knowledge such as finance, marketing and operations, then you need to check out the distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville. It's an online program that can be completed in as little as six courses. The program is taught by both UVL business faculty and corporate fellows. So you are getting real experience from experts at the most renowned distilleries, companies and startups in the distilling industry. We're talking leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory, jack daniels and more. get enrolled to this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:39 My dad's famous line is nothing I said is on Episode One is if you're if you're drinking beer, you're watching the party. If you're drinking bourbon, you are the party 1:01 This is Episode 243 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of your hosts. And how about some pursuit series news. Now, we don't want to use this as a self serving platform. But lots of people want updates on what's happening. So here's the latest. Last week, Ryan and I visit our barrel broker where we get to do what's sort of unusual in the bulk source market, where we get to actually hand select every barrel. Now, we've talked about this before, and you're going to hear about it more, but this time we tasted through 22 barrels and wound up choosing three barrels of 10 year Tennessee bourbon, and then we also selected two barrels of a special ride. We've got a few months until the Ryobi bottled, but this stuff blew our minds at only four years old, because it had such fruity and bubblegum flavors that I think it's gonna take everybody by surprise. We've also purchased four more barrels from Finger Lakes distilling, and we'll be releasing more of those relatively soon. We've got other things in the works as well. And you can get all those updates for upcoming barrels in our Patreon community. 2:00 Lastly, we have finally touched down in Georgia and more specifically in Atlanta, where there are select retailers with limited amounts of Episode 21 and it tastes just like candied pecans. Next week we have two more barrels going up for sale to our Patreon community first before they are released to the general public. And one of these barrels is our first ever 15 year old bourbon release. It might just be one of my favorites because you know, I love that oak. Alright, let's get on with the industry news. Right now Corona virus is on everyone's radar and we all know the travel industry is hurting because events held worldwide are being canceled. But what does that mean for the spirits industry? Chinese consumers are really tailored more to scotch and cognac and buys you where it's going to be hit hardest. biagio has already cut its full year 2020 profit forecast by up to 260 million as bars and restaurants and Greater China remain empty. beams and Tory said that the coronavirus situation is 3:00 Creating challenges in key Asian markets and its 2019 full year results. For no record anticipates the outbreak will have a severe impact on its China and travel retail business and cut its guidance for organic growth in profit from reoccurring operations for fiscal 2022, two to 4% from its previous expectations of five to 7%. In response to the industry demand for greater clarity during global threats, I Ws our drinks market analysis, which is the leading authority on data and intelligence on the global beverage alcohol market has revealed plans to launch the AWS our Corona virus risk assessment model, also known as cram. The tool will quantify and forecast the impact of key global events, giving industry leaders data driven insights and situational forecasts to navigate the situation and manage risks. To commemorate the celebration of its hundred and 50th anniversary pulled forcers opening the first ever whiskey row retreat. It's going to be a huge 4:00 immersive bourbon apartment experience. one lucky winner and a guests will be invited to stay at whiskey row retreat during National bourbon day on June 14, and the entire guest experience at the whiskey row retreat will center around unprecedented access to the production of the bourbon, the brand and the people behind old forester. The contest winner and a guest will be invited to partake in special activities at the old forcer distilling company, including experiencing the process of creating a barrel. Joining Jackie's I can in a single barrel selection and custom cocktail classes, such as learning how to make the brain signature perfect old fashioned to enter the whiskey row retreat contest fans 21 and older can enter by sharing an essay on why they think they should be chosen to win and stay at the whiskey row retreat. And you can do this by visiting old forester.com slash whiskey row retreat. The entry for deadline is April 20 of 2024 roses small batch select is expanding beyond 5:00 2019 initial launch of only being in five states. new markets were small batch select will be available in the coming months include Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Tennessee, Washington and Wisconsin. 5:18 independent state company and the Boswell family who you might remember Brad Boswell the CEO back on episode 185 are giving $1 million to the university Kentucky to further spirits research at the James been Institute for Kentucky spirits. The gift will fund a new maturation facility that will allow the dean Institute to experiment with barrel aging spirits produced in its research distillery, the only one of its kind in the United States. This new warehouse will have a 600 barrel capacity and become an interactive classroom and laboratory where students and scientists can tackle real life industry issues. Do you find yourself talking to the same people every day about bourbon and real life? 6:00 You talked to them more than maybe some of your best friends from school. think we're all in that same situation now. And that's what today's episode is all about. bourbon has a magical element to it that seems to bring people together across every demographic and share a common bond. But perhaps you're getting started and you want to figure out how do you find your bourbon people. We sit down with Jeremy Mendell, he's an admin and founder of a few Facebook communities. And he's also one of our Patreon supporters. We go through what it takes to find connections with other like minded individuals that can be done either online with people around the world, or perhaps it's in your own backyard with meetup groups, urban societies, and much more. You'll come away at the end of this realizing you've probably followed some of these same steps already without even realizing it. And hey, if you want to be a part of another community, join us on Patreon where you're 700 plus members strong and growing every single week. As a final reminder, we are doing our 2020 bourbon pursuit audience survey and we want to know more 7:00 More about you, our listeners. So if you've got 30 seconds to spare and I promise it's only 30 seconds, please visit bourbon pursuit calm slash 2020 survey. Alright, it's time for the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char. 7:18 It's Joe from barrel bourbon, myself and our master distiller a triple stimpson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel and make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Next time ask your bartender for barrel bourbon. 7:33 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char money. Oh, we talked about it. It's the root of all evil. And we wish we had more of it and people tell themselves that money can't buy you happiness. Well, you know, money is very, very, very important. And right now you have distillers from Washington to Florida and from Texas to South Dakota. 8:00 All scrambling going to banks, venture capitalists, private investors, Angel share people, friends, family. Hell, you might even just randomly run into someone on the airport, you're hitting them up for money. There are so many people looking for money in this space. And people just don't understand whiskey. I sometimes wonder what the world would look like in the distilling business. If mainstream businesses understood what this world encompassed, that in fact that bourbon is its own audience. bourbon is as big as a sports team or NFL franchise or even a sports league. It's bigger than a lot of TV shows. And if people would actually just kind of wake up and look past the alcohol aspect. We may be hearing about brands that you never even knew about, but because somebody can't get the money 9:00 That they need to start the distillery of their dreams. We're not going to hear about them. 9:06 And there are people like Cedar Ridge and Iowa where the farmer, the winemaker, he leverages his house, everything that he owns his land. I mean, I think he might even leveraged a kid near to just to start the brand Cedar Ridge. He kept believing in it, he kept believing in it, and he kept believing it and then finally he got a big big break. And that is just it. Everybody needs a break in this business. But it all starts with the money. And I'll be damned if there's just not enough of it to go around. 9:43 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, did you know that I have got a new podcast. It's in the music interview section. So help me become the number one music interview podcast on Apple. Go over there and search for my name the Fred MiniK show. 10:00 Then we'll have the number one bourbon podcast and the number one music interview podcast. Go check it out. Until next week, cheers. 10:11 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit, the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney, Ryan and Fred here talking about a fun cultural topic. You know, this is, this is something that even this podcast wouldn't have started if it wasn't for the type of pot or the topic that we are actually talking about tonight. And it's kind of really, I guess, you could say it's a way that you you branch out a little bit you end up growing, we've all had friends that we get through school and college or work or anything like that, and then you end up finding Oh, I can find brend friends and other things such as hobbies, and, and really, bourbon is one of those things that we talked about all the time. It's what brings people together. And that's kind of what brought this podcast together. I mean, Ryan was 11:00 Really on the idea of Hey, let's start a bourbon podcasts. And I think I know this guy named Kenny. Yeah, we weren't really friends. And so we were we were we were acquaintances at that point Really? Well, we, ironically enough, we both liked etn. Before, before bourbon, so that was the introduction. And then the bourbon kind of brought us together. But yes, bourbon has definitely like, I'm amazed at how many people and how vast my network has become just because of bourbon. And like, it's crazy. Like, it's just nuts. It's it's a cool, very cool thing, and very humbling thing. So yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. Because it's, I've been so blessed to meet so many fortunate people, Fred included. 11:42 Not just doing your yard. We're now friends. 11:46 I feel we were actually friends before that, too. Yep, exactly. So yeah. I feel good because we're rep Fred and I were you know, we're Facebook official friends. So I feel like I made it. Yeah. Good. Good to see everything that's happened in our person. 12:00 So wives and kind of grown since they're now and now we're going to the point where I think is there a day that goes by we all don't text each other. 12:09 I don't think there is actually. Yeah, so it's like it's like texts like part of our dinner as long frightened as text chain started like 6am Kenny challenges in about 10am 12:22 Yeah, you already get started way too early. I don't know how you do it. It's not my choice. Yeah, I got a five year old elbowing me in the back. Daddy Get up, gotta get out. 12:32 So our guests just chimed in there. So let's go ahead and introduce them and kind of really start talking about the meat of this subject. So tonight we're joined by Jeremy Mendell, Jeremy is a member of our Patreon community and came to us with this topic. So Jeremy, welcome to the show. Thank you guys. been listening to you forever. Really happy to be here. Hopefully we're making a dream come true. Tonight. We're on bourbon pursuit. Thanks for putting up with us all these years. For I can't even tell you how long 12:59 Yeah, 13:00 dum dum meet your idols 13:02 Yeah, it's terrible and you were laying 13:05 So Jeremy let's hear your kind of coming to age tale of bourbon. How did how did you really get into it was their first sipar some sort of introduction rolling up 13:17 I had a you know like I would imagine a lot of people do just in high school. I guess I shouldn't say that but I'm pretty sure it's common we've amassed even master distillers say they started yet but we had a little poker room with some friends and there was we would always try and get a bottle of something for our games and 13:38 we found because then it truly was finding we were fine. We found a bottle with a nice little horse on the top and it was around little ball and 13:48 my goodness it was delicious. 13:51 So that was back when you let go into a store and buy some blends. 13:56 But that kind of kicked it off went through college. 14:00 Then, 14:01 probably two, three years after graduating college and went to the University of Arizona 14:08 was talking to a buddy of mine, Tori Levy, who was in my fantasy football league. He beat beat all of us. And when I sent him the money, he sent me a picture of him cracking a Pappy 15 and I had read about that, but I'd never had it or even knew anyone that could get it. So I said, How the heck did you get that thing? 14:33 And then he showed me oh my goodness, there is bourbon on the internet. 14:39 So it was just kind of a spiral from there. 14:43 But you know, from there, you meet a whole bunch of people, which I'm sure we're going to talk about, kind of create a little bourbon community and that's kind of how this whole series of cardboard boxes behind me came to be. Yeah, we're about to say that that kind of justifies your your level of music 15:00 But to this I think I think all of us have a room in the house or a closet of something that just has boxes of herbaceous ages cardboard boxes stacked with inside each other commitment so much as it's a level of cheapness. 15:17 I certainly don't want to pay $4 for a box. So my goodness. Yeah, yeah. Every time I get an Amazon package, I'm like, is this gonna be good for future use to ship something? Well, it gets it gets the point now where you can train your significant other when they understand what the right size boxes and they'll be like, honey, I save this for you. Yeah, my wife said, you know, this is the perfect box to get some of those little stupid bottles that you do with the stupid bottles. The two ounce the two ounce stamp. Gotcha. Yeah, little bit. It's perfect for your little stupid bottles. 15:54 She's supportive of the hobby. That's great. I'm supportive in that this is existing, but she 16:00 Certainly gives me crap all the time. Oh, yeah. Well, is it isn't that her job though? To give you a little shit? I think so. Yeah. Just join the club at that point. So you're fine. 16:11 So I guess let's go ahead and kind of talk about, you know, we can each share some of these stories of how we got introduced to it. And Fred, I don't know if we've ever heard your story, like kind of how were, you know, did did somebody introduce you to bourbon and sort of how did that that process? Yeah, I've man I was drinking bourbon. And 16:36 you know, I didn't actually drink in high school like that. So I was not, you know, the only times that I had drank in high school definitely was wasn't bourbon. He was smoking when I 16:48 was doing hard drugs. He's doing those Double Dragon drinks. 16:52 So when I went to college, I became a big, you know, beam drinker. And you 17:00 My first legal drink was you know, Jim being white and I remember going into the liquor store at that time and there there was like old Fitzgerald and well I mean think I've all I've thought about this a lot I wish I could travel back in time to Stillwater Oklahoma when I was you know just turning 21 which would have been 2000 and and just like clean those shelves out because they were loaded loaded with stuff that now I would you know, have spent four or 500 to 1200 dollars on so it's 17:34 I definitely was not drinking well, but when I when I was drinking 17:38 bourbon it was always Jim Beam white label if I was like, you know, wanting to you know, live high on the hog and getting Maker's Mark, but, but who's who's the person introduced you like you did? Did you actually just go into the store and say like, I think I feel like drinking or you ever been to a fraternity party? I have. Yeah. So who gave me the bottle 18:00 I don't know. 18:02 You know, I will say probably the moment that I fell in love with it, it was it was probably on a fraternity bus on our way to New Orleans from Baton Rouge. We were there for like some kind of convention. Man, it just it just felt it was very tasty. I love the taste of it. And then I found myself like ordering jack or Jim 18:30 instead of beer, or sometimes both. And you know at that at that young age, and then when I was when I was in Iraq, I you know, we couldn't 18:42 you know, was against the our general orders to, to have, 18:47 you know, to have liquor or have anything, so I would have friends, you know, pour out Listerine bottles and fill it with Jim Beam or jack daniels at the time and 19:00 Those are your stupid bottles. Yeah. 19:03 If you were if you were, if you compare like a traditional bottle of Listerine next to like beam or jack, they had the same color. So the MPs couldn't, couldn't crack it open, you know, because they couldn't, you know, they wouldn't necessarily, you know, think to look at that but so that's how I used to do it. And I actually did have there was a unit 19:27 that would go into like northern Iraq in our bill and they would buy cases of liquor and occasionally like the South African contingent that was there, they would break it out. So like bourbon is, in my adult life. bourbon has always played a role in terms of like, where I really fell in love with it. Be honest with you is with my wife, you know, because she's, she's a big bourbon drinker, like you know, and I started, you know, I was just drinking it was I appreciating it prior to her 20:00 Probably not. But I don't think I appreciated many things until my wife. No. I want to make sure she gets that sound bite. What about you, Ryan? We're I think we talked I think this is actually episode one right episode. One of verbiage suit is where we talked about ours, but let's go ahead and rehash yours. Yeah, so thinking back down memory lane. It was in Bardstown As you may or may not know where I'm from, but no. Yeah, definitely for that, man. That's all I know. You get like bourbon. royalty DNA in your blood. Yes, analog connections. Yes. Throughout. But now the first time it was like at a field party and my buddy, his name's Pikey. I know weird name. But uh, he had Evan Williams and coke. 20:50 And I was like, let me try that it was first time I kind of return I was like, all this tastes like sweet nectar. Like this is this is amazing. And then from there, yeah, just 21:00 drank so much Jim Beam white label in college. Oh my god, I can't even drink it now. Like, I can't even look at it, because it brings back so many bad memories, but good memories, but uh, I didn't really like start getting serious till I don't know, after college. I mean, my dad does a lot of work for the bourbon industry. He's a machinist. So he does tool and our pair and I would deliver parts to him or for him to the different distilleries. And I remember you know, just seeing the bottles they would always give them stuff and then I would take it to 21:35 and so I vividly remember taking like some alijah correct 20 ones and Noah Mills 15th and taking them to college parties and like, totally mixing them with coke or ginger ale and like, just had no clue what you know what I had, and so, yeah, just kind of progressed from there and then like, really start appreciating when I went I went to school at Rutgers and New Jersey. Kind of 22:00 Nobody there really knew it. So I kind of preached the gospel of there and kind of started really diving into it. 22:09 And then I met Kenny and then found out there's this whole world of collecting and trading and flipping and collecting, you know, all this stuff and then so you go down that rabbit hole and then I'm like, why don't we? I can't just like have the hobby I gotta start a business about it. You 22:25 can't just leisurely enjoy bourbon with friends. So like, let's start a podcast but yeah, it's, it's and now you know, I I'm no one's a stranger to me. And so like, I've just reached out to anybody that has the same interested in me. I'm not afraid to talk to them and reach out to them. So 22:45 I've met so many people that enjoy bourbon and it's been like, crazy and it's cool because I'm from there. And when I grew up, no one gave a shit about it. And now everybody gives a shit about it. And you know, just seeing the towel. 23:00 flourish and stuff it's pretty cool. Yeah, absolutely we'll touch more on like meeting new people and stuff with instead of bourbon all kind of recap mine I know I've probably said it before. I have the same sort of coming of age tale is Fred over there. So I joined a fraternity and university Kentucky's campus. And I mean, I remember back it was $10 for a 24 pack of Natty light and being an undergrad. Yeah, you always just get you have 10 bucks you give it to one of the juniors or seniors within the fraternity they'd run out you come back and like that's your that's your that's your drinking for the evening. However, I remember hanging out with some of the older upperclassmen in there, they were all sitting around drinking bourbon and coke and back then, our drink of choice was Kentucky tavern. That was that was our go to. And that was kind of like my first introduction that they were actually known as an attorney was actually known as one of the biggest bourbon drinking fraternities on campus. I don't know if that was a good thing or bad thing at the time. 24:00 Time, but because everybody knows what happens if you get a little too bourbon drunk when you're a little young and stupid, but back then it was, it was a it was a way to kind of get an introduction to it. So of course mixing the bourbon and coke. However, at the time, you know, this was also a time when you're drinking, not to sit there and enjoy your drinking to consume and have a good time. And, you know, all that aside, you don't feel as bloated when you have a few bourbon and cokes after you do try to have like eight to 10 eight to 1012 beers so it actually made you feel a little bit better going throughout the night. And now you're interrupting my dad's famous line is and I think I said this on Episode One is if you're if you're drinking beer, you're watching the party. If you're drinking bourbon You are the party. 24:50 So I've always loved that line. But anyways, so let's go on to the next t shirt. Yeah. 24:56 But yeah, I mean that's that's sort of how it started for me And ever since I did that. 25:00 Like I was always one person that was kind of like preaching like always do bourbon and cokes. During college, it just seemed like the easiest way to do it. And not only that is me and my roommate at the time we became social chairs. Social chair is a nice word to say party planner for back in college in the fraternity days. And so our biggest Actually, this is what I truly miss about college is that your biggest worry is where we're going to party on Thursday and Friday night. And that's that's what you had to set up. And so back then UK was a very dry campus and you couldn't have any alcohol with inside the fraternity houses at all. So our goal was to say how do we have house parties and still serve liquor? And so what we did is we get we got those massive Gatorade jugs that you see on the sidelines of football stadiums, and we filled those and it was one handle a Kentucky Tavern two to two liters of diet coke and so 26:00 Everybody drink bourbon and coke at the parties. And that's how we we continued that to flourish for a while, but after after college then is kind of when the appreciation started. I didn't stop drinking bourbon, it was still bourbon and cokes and that's where the progression starts where you start getting rid of the coke, you start getting rid of the ice and you start learning to drink it neat. Old forester became a staple for me. Every once in a while splurging on small batch. You know, Fred, you talked about going back to the store and, and thinking of all those bottles that you could have had my God even I went to the liquor store and when I was there buying for parties, I would buy, probably, gosh 10 cases of six or 1.75 liters of Kentucky Tavern every single week. I don't think I even looked at any other bottles on the shelves. I always looked at figure out where could I get the cheapest premiere like it's overpriced. 26:57 I mean, that was didn't really know any better at the time. 27:00 And be honest even when I even after college, I didn't really know any better either. I was drinking for as a small batch I didn't know limited limited editions even existed until I was working at a company and I there's a guy that worked there and we talked about bourbon all the time. You know, we we'd sit there and talk about bottles we come together and and he's the one introduced me to limited editions. And this was 2012, late, early 2013 timeframe, something like that. And he's like, Hey, I got a few extra things. I'll just sell them to you at cost because I'm just overflowing and and so he sold me a four roses hundred and 25th anniversary, an old rip squat bottle. 27:42 Jefferson's I think it was 21 maybe it was and they were all at retail at the time. I was just like, Oh gosh, like 27:54 80 bucks a bottle like you sure about this. And, and so that's that's kind of what got me on to that. 28:00 Train. And then of course, as as Jeremy said, you find out about online forums and then the whole world of different things start opening up to you if things that you never even knew existed. Yeah, and that's, I think that's really where the rabbit hole starts for most of us. And I think that's kind of where the conversation keeps going for a lot of us here because the online community is really where a lot of the relationships are built. It's also where a lot of relationships go to die and 28:30 let's be honest, there's a lot of butthurt that happens out there. 28:34 So feelings journals for the bourbon world, what are you talking about? Yeah, right. You mentioned one thing and then all of a sudden you get people either hating on your loving Yes. So Jeremy kind of talk about your introduction into like the the bourbon online communities. So my buddy Tory said, hey, yeah, I got this happy 15 years I finally found a good use for Facebook. So I 29:00 got invited to one of those deals. saw that, you know, my first love bourbon was was Blanton's. And I got on there and within five minutes 29:10 I saw somebody was selling a blends. It was dated in like 1988. And I didn't realize that whiskey existed before I drank it. 29:22 So bought that 1988 Blanton's and still have about a quarter of it. 29:28 And really from there, it's sort of just went into a networking you can almost fall into this accidentally and I'm sure that you all his experiences are very similar. 29:38 But you know, you find some people that you've got good relationships with. And now I'm a part of a few groups that I really proud to be a part of, and it's been really cool. And you know, I've got a network, really across the country coast to coast and actually even out of the country, just from those stupid Facebook groups. Can you enlighten me 30:00 Major towns if you needed to sleep on someone's couch, he would do bourbon. I'm going to Florida for business on Friday and I am crashing in the spare bedroom of a bourbon friend that night. No way. It's awesome. We're going to be drinking. Well, have you met him before in person? Yes, a couple times. Actually, he and I have not picked a barrel together. But we got to take part and what to me is my favorite part about a lot of this stuff is the charity component. 30:30 And there was a guy in Florida who 30:34 had a really terrible cancer diagnosis and young guy about 21 years old 22 maybe. And without getting super deep in the details of it. I went down there last year because we raised him about 17 18,000 bucks. And I went down there to 30:54 to go with him to present the money to him and his family. And that was the first time that I cracked 31:00 His little No I didn't crash his place but we met that time. 31:03 Like here's a here's a check by the way Can I stay in your spare bedroom 31:11 This is actually the first time crashing his house but we have met before but that's that's always a lot of fun and of course you know my wife thinks it's ridiculous but you know we're in this city I gotta go see this guy. 31:25 So, but yeah, you get you get this network and I'm sure you guys are all the same in that regard you got kind of people all over the country that you know from random, you know, this guy helped me find this thing I was looking for. And of course, my my wife would say well, why are you looking for that in the first place? You have 200 something 300 31:47 but this sounds all too familiar. 31:50 Never heard that before, right? Yeah, but But yeah, it's you know, you form these communities. We've we've been able to do a lot of good. 31:59 We've been 32:00 able to do a lot of bad too but but it's a lot of fun and it's this whole kind of separate world that you get to be a part of all around this brown water stuff that we all like to bring 32:13 up good. I was gonna ask you know like you talked about like meeting up like with it with individuals but do you ever like, like throw get togethers where your your buddies that you've met online or whatever you guys go to a house or you go to a bar Do you all have like special events or anything like that? So nothing that's terribly scheduled but 32:36 one of the bourbon groups I'm in is called karma. And we did the first one was, it's kind of always centered around barrel pics. So about a summer of 2017 we all got together did a four roses pick and not Creek pick a couple other things that I'm not remembering right now. But you know, there was a good 3035 of us they got together. Remember, we all 33:00 Went to Haymarket one night and that was a blast. And it's all these people who I recognize from one single picture. 33:08 But it was really cool. So we we've done that a couple of buddies. We Ribeiro, the whole bunch of Nashville number one, I think it was from Buffalo Trace and we threw it up in a barrel at a buddy's farm in Tennessee. And we all got together about two months ago, to see if it sucked. 33:31 And fortunately, it didn't suck. 33:35 So we had a weekend at an Airbnb on a on a river or lake or somebody of water. And it's a it's a great time and so and those people end up becoming some of your best friends. It was really, really bizarre but actually ends up happening that way. Every time I go meet my bourbon or internet friends, my wife's like, what are you doing going to meet your internet friends, you're going to be on dateline one of these times. 34:00 The barrel pick that I went to my wife was convinced I was going to be raped and murdered. She was. 34:07 Yeah. 34:09 Oh, gosh, I think we all get that, that every once in a while I think my wife is getting a little bit more tuned to it. Because of course, you know, through our community through Patreon, we get emails all the time, and we try to make it when we can have people saying, you know, we'd love to just come and meet up for a drink and, and sometimes we can make it happen and, and, and she's always kind of like, Alright, well just make sure you text me at the table in case you need. 34:33 Yeah, I remember one time I was going to meet with Kenny and doubled Patreon guys and I got the Uber and to me, it's like, text me as soon as you get there and like make sure as soon as you leave text me and I'm like, Okay, I'm promise I'm gonna make it home. They're not going to kill me. Or a tag team. We can we can take anybody. Yeah. But back to cut it. Go. Go ahead, Jeremy. I'll see you say you guys looked up so you could take them now. Yeah, Kenny's not. 34:59 Well, 35:01 I haven't worked out in a while you gotta he doesn't wire your wire sorry. Yeah, I am. So let's kind of back to the you know the community aspect of this. You know, you had mentioned karma. I mean, are you are you in in with other groups and stuff like that where you kind of find those ends? And I guess are there are there certain types of groups that create more bonds than others? 35:29 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to our spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan Kaiser his family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch was stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family tradition alive and he opened to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain their entire plant 36:00 product lineup consists of only two whiskeys, their moonshine and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured in rack house whiskey clubs next box. rack house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rock house ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to rack house whiskey club.com to check it out and try some to bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 36:37 What's up everyone? i'm john Henderson, your admin over at the bourbon pursuit Discord server. As a coordinator for the Christmas fundraisers held by the bourbon pursuit. I'd like to thank everyone who contributed. I couldn't be more proud of this community. One perk of joining the bourbon pursuit on Patreon is that you get access to real time chat with other members along with Kenny Ryan and Fred through discord from photo sharing and sample swaps to 37:00 events where ultra limited releases like willet bottles are exchange. There's always something going on. Right now over 300 members of the Patreon community have joined and are connecting over our passion for bourbon. If you're not on Patreon, now's a great time to join us and get involved with the community in a whole new way. Come check it out for yourself and be part of the behind the scenes chat photos and video calls. We'd like to have you join us on a live virtual board where we all discuss a pursuit series release just 37:28 are there certain types of groups that create more bonds than others? So community wise, I'm a part of two groups that really are my bourbon community, I would say. One is karma. That was a cost plus shit group which I'm sure we'll talk about what that is. 37:47 But essentially, it's, you know, I because of that I feel comfortable that if there's ever anything I want to try from some what's a good example? I'm up 38:00 Four roses, that four roses my top of the line, particularly the Oh, so recipe, and liquor barn had a Oh yeah, so barrel a month ago or so 38:13 I got two bottles over there. But I'm down in Texas and that's because of the connections I've made my cost call ship group karma. 38:21 That's been a great deal you meet all kinds of great people. 38:27 Then I'm also a part of a barrel picking group called 21 kings. And I've made a bunch of great connections there. I'm going actually I'm going to be up in Kentucky a couple weeks to pick a four roses barrel and willet ride barrel. And that's really it started more as a we want to be able to pick barrels and not share it among 200 people kind of thing. But you know, you make these connections with you. There's, it's really interesting. There's not a lot that I've experienced in the world that Bond's people together like picking a barrel of bourbon. Just 39:00 I don't know what the secret sauce in there I know what the sauces but 39:05 the common denominator. Yeah. 39:09 You pick a barrel of somebody, your pals, 39:14 you know, talk talk the whole thing through it's a painstakingly excellent process if you do it right. And I've been really lucky to get to do it a few times and I'm really excited to get to do it again here in a couple weeks. But it's been a really cool experience, you know, you get to get really, really good bourbon or rye or whatever it is you're picking, and you get to, you know, make connections with people that you wouldn't do, at least for me, certainly I never would have made those connections otherwise. Now I'm totally with you. And I guess that that also kind of thinks about you know, really where does the relationship start and how does it build and it I have the same things with with two other buddies that really 40:00 We we knew each or we didn't really know each other and then we've kind of found each other through bourbon and then their their personal lives. You start knowing about their children you know about their vacations, you know about you know, where they're buying a how their IRAs. Yeah, everything getting 40:19 better. I mean that's that's kind of like how it kind of blips like that where you it's just a really kind of snowballs where you kind of have this common foundation. And then from there, you start talking to them more than you did. The people that you went to school with years ago. And and they become something because it seems like bourbon is like an everyday thing. It's constantly changing and the people that care about it are always in tune with it. Yeah, absolutely. The you know, 40:47 it's really nice. You know, aside from just the personal connections, it's just great to have a network of fellow dorks that we can talk about that stuff with. 40:55 You know, there's I live in San Antonio, which is 41:00 You know, it's got a good bourbon community here, but it's sort of 41:04 from a maturity level. It really only became a big thing down here in the past three to six months. 41:12 So, you know, I always thought the Esquire bar had a really nice bourbon. So I guess choir is fantastic. And you know, they do the San Antonio cocktail conference down here. Yeah, I come every year was in the back of the room last time you did one. You can stay on this couch next time. Yeah, that's right. Do you mind? I mean, St. Anthony's expensive. Yeah, if you don't mind golden retriever sniffing around Yeah, you can always got a couch here. 41:40 But 41:42 there there's a few people here in there but like as compared to say like Houston with Houston's I mean, you guys know you guys had 41:51 the Houston bourbon society on a while back. That's been a big deal for a few years now. 41:57 So like, just as a 42:00 An example and I mean, no disrespect in saying this, but in the San Antonio group, the old Ezra seven year is a big damn deal right now. 42:09 And it's a good, it's an excellent drink. I really like it for what it is. But if you've been into the hobby really deeply for five plus years, then you know, you're you're drinking other stuff too. 42:24 So it's locally it's not as far down the line as say like a Houston or obviously anywhere in Kentucky, 42:33 which made the online community is a really great thing for us. And I guess another question with that is, are you seeing a lot of I mean, so you have your local society, and that's another place where a lot of people can go in and find some of those those bourbon connection those bourbon friends that live they live in your local area. Most of the time, you might find it on, you know, the the local page or the San Antonio page and then you see each other and me 43:00 And then all of a sudden things can happen through there. Yeah, the it's funny I'm hosting. And you know, Ryan, you joked about IRAs but that's 43:10 that's what I do for a living and I can't tell you how many times one of my bourbon friends would send me a text message or an emails like hey, do you mind if I ask you about this thing? So actually do know about a lot about the IRAs of some of my bourbon friends 43:23 have ESP gift but yeah, you end up I just right before we got on here, my buddy Josh Hayes gave me a call I talked to him for about a half hour and bourbon didn't come up. 43:40 So yeah, it's it's really cool to have connections like that. 43:44 You know, another thing that we kind of talked about earlier, too is and we'll kind of keep this train going with the kind of online community theme is we talked about raffles and and how these these kind of groups that are based off raffles, it also kind of creates a little bit of camaraderie. 44:00 Because you've got people that either they all try to play the same number and they fight each other for they get to know each other through there, or there's somebody that consistently win somebody else's raffle all the time. And so you have you have this also built into even though it's an expensive hobby, but it's something Yeah, we like in, in karma, my cost ship group the stupidest thing in the world, but when when mega ball went from 15 numbers to 17 or 19, or whatever the number is not 15 anymore. We were all very upset because that diluted our chances of winning stuff. 44:39 So we had to create our own weekly drawing, which is I got a bingo machine back there some somewhere did our own damn drawing because we didn't want to split a bottle 17 ways I want to split it 15 ways. 44:54 But yeah, you end up particularly in some of those secondary raffle sites you can lose just 45:00 an absurd amount of money if you don't really check yourself. Yeah, hey, Kenny for introducing me to raffles and risky whiskey in particular. Yeah, well, after a while, you figure, you know, that's the reason I'm doing it. I had to delete social media during the week. Thanks a lot. 45:17 But after a while, you end up as we were talking earlier, you kind of put planned but, you know, back to the, the community aspect of this, you know, we look at it as as an opportunity as as well to branch out, you know, my myself gotten to know people through these communities. And, and, you know, Jeremy, as you mentioned, you'll travel you go somewhere, you know, I've got connections now and a lot of states and so you can you can travel somewhere and know that you can confide in somebody and you can hang out and have a good time. You don't have to go and meet up at a bar somewhere to go and, and hang out. And ultimately, I don't know about you all, I'd actually rather go to somebody's house and dig into their collection. 46:00 Try something unique and I would just rather meet up at a bar. Well, it's funny we, my buddy Craig Lyman was here probably six months ago and there's three guys here locally they're a part of the karma group that we're that we're all a part of. And 46:18 we went out to a bar at all meet up and about halfway through my trying that Bob Dylan whiskey. 46:26 We all that stuff. I hate to break off on that, but what did you think of the Bob Dylan whiskey? I wasn't a tremendous fan of Oh, it's gross in it. 46:37 Like it like it all. It was bros about it. So there is a Okay, so it's, it's it's decal, and they got like the bottom of the barrel of the decal barrels. Because it's just it's like metallic. You know, there's like there's like this crazy like weird metallic note in there. Yeah, there was something to it that I had not tasted in bourbon. 47:00 before and I don't mean that in a good way. 47:03 And it inspired us we were 47:07 you Fred, you mentioned the Esquire we were down the road from the Esquire so maybe that was our problem. 47:13 But we all 47:15 that that drink inspired me to tell her because the best bar in San Antonio for whiskey is at each of our individual houses. Can we please just go there? 47:24 So that's what we did a lot better than the Bob Dylan whiskey. Yeah, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, but I had to ask your opinion on it. No, I don't totally remember where I was going with that. But you're absolutely right. That's up stuck by you, Fred. I mean, Fred, if you if you had enough connections now when you go somewhere that you'd rather not go to a bar and you'd rather go to somebody's house and dive into a you know, well, or gold vein or William Lou Weller, some old dusty Kentucky Tavern or Evan Williams or something like that. I've had you know, I've had some weird expense. 48:00 SS 48:03 please do share it out. Yeah, I've had some weird ones. But I'm you know it, I'll say that I still like to see what's going on in the town five years ago, I was like, I don't want to go to a whiskey bar because I have everything and I don't want to spend that kind of money. And I'd rather just kind of go hang out and see something else. 48:26 Now, I'm kind of going back to the, I feel like these, these bars are working hard to, you know, promote my culture, what I love, and you know, I gotta throw them a bone, I gotta, I gotta go in there and pay my respect to what they're doing. So that's kind of how I think of it now is like, I don't think of it as like, you know, look at them and their prices is just what they are if they're price gouging, you know, be very vocal about that, but 49:00 Often to like I end up correcting spelling errors and menus. I mean, for God's sake, why can't people spell will it correctly? It's true. 49:10 But I feel like I have, I have a purpose. And I'm supposed I need to be visiting these great temples that are bastions to whiskey. And you know, if they invite me and I'm going to go on a show, you know, check it out, but indeed do I like going to someone's house and going down in the basement and seeing seeing the collection? I mean, that's like to me that just doesn't get better than that. Now, what's weird is when like, you know, I come in the house. 49:45 And then the guys wife's down there, and I'm like, oh, oh. 49:53 And did you like she's like, who's this guy in the ass guy? 49:57 Oh, man, just ignore 50:00 Weird. So I didn't sleep on their couch. 50:04 Like I'm gonna go till now. 50:07 Yeah, well, I mean, it's, it's, it's fun to look at this and look at the relationships that you do build over time. Because it does seem like a lot of these hopefully will stand the test of time you never really know. Because it I don't know, maybe this is another kind of question is, 50:27 you know, as bourbon becomes more prolific and becomes more scarce and it's even harder to find these things and, and really, I don't know how much bigger these networks that people are creating right now can actually get, 50:42 you know, can they get bigger or you feel like, you know what, I don't have any more room in my life for new friends. We're just going to kind of keep it where it's at. For me and we I don't know if we actually call the episode this but you said the term finding your bourbon people 51:00 For me, selfishly, I found my bourbon people. 51:04 My biggest group of people that I care about is about 150 people and that's about as big as it needs to be and we're all having 51:13 like, 51:15 I don't know when this is going to air but right now there's this whole bsm bourbon secondary market thing going on Facebook, we couldn't care less. And it's been incredibly entertaining for us because I know because I've established my community. There's not really anything that's going to come out that if I really want to try it, I can't try it. from a store pick that comes out to got a buddy with a bottle of Red Hook ride that I'm going to see if I can't finagle announce it Oh yeah, battle. If you can find your your community then these groups of 50 some thousand people really don't matter all that much. So I guess another question is is so you found your people we've already decided three's enough. We're not bringing on a fourth co host 52:00 So we've got our people but how do you what would you say is is a good way for people to start getting introduced and sort of like find their you know, find their because you say they're missing connections they're getting to the gangs of the bourbon community. To me every every good bourbon connection I've come into is because somebody was doing something nice for somebody else. 52:25 You know, whether it's you know, there's last year almost city liquor here had a fantastic Elijah Craig pick, bought a bunch of it and help some friends that otherwise wouldn't have been able to get it. 52:38 Get it and they became good friends and that favor is I've been on the receiving end of that favor, you know, from different places all over the country. 52:50 And great bourbon connections for me rarely come from trying to price gouge somebody on a whatever store pic of 53:00 The month it is. 53:02 But if you, you know, just be cool with people and treat everyone this is you know, I guess cliche but 53:11 treat people the way you'd want to be treated. 53:15 You'll end up knowing some really cool folks and that's what's in that's what's happened to me. And that's the advice that I typically give people on between karma and 21 Kings I really don't need to know anybody else. Be able to know you guys 53:28 can be your friend. 53:31 Give me your card. Jeremy. One of my favorite things is like I get you know, when when I travel I do often like just kind of connect with someone who's a listener or reader just like or, you know, follows me on Instagram. I really do try to make an effort when I'm out to like, go hang out with people. And my favorite thing to do is like learn about their jobs. You know, because I find that we have 54:01 in people's pleat people's beliefs, because what I have found is is that bourbon is not. It doesn't attract as one race or one occupation or one political or religious belief. I mean, it attracts everybody. And to me that is what's so beautiful about this category is that I could be in a room with a staunch democrat and a staunch republican and they absolutely hate each other politically. But they'll just sit there and talk about how beautiful a new riff barrel pick is. And I'll talk about that now. They have three they might get into some, some fighting but once they cross the threshold, but it's kind of like, you know, Henry Clay, you know, the great Kentucky statesman, he said he wants said that bourbon was used to lubricate the wheels of justice. 54:59 It's like this 55:00 Great like, door opener for conversation? Well, I think even if you have the three drinks if you have committed commit each other from a place of respect, I mean, one of my, one of my good friends that I've met Andrew Goodman is a very far left person I am not. 55:17 And he lives in New York City. I was there for a business meeting. We went to one of the bars there. He bought me some vintage 17 rye, or no finish 21 rye. 55:30 And we talked politics for a good hour. And we walked out of there not hating each other and it's magic how that happens nowadays, you practically can't do it. Yeah. What problems you solve? I want to know down can 55:46 we solve the problem of how to get more Oh, yeah, so four roses, but we really solve any, any national issues, although that's become a national issue. 55:56 For sure. But you know, it's it's a conduit for 56:00 A really good conversation to like that, that I never would have had otherwise. And we continue to have it frequently. And then when it gets to be too, 56:08 too much we both saying I, you know, we don't want to fight with each other. Let's agree. 56:13 So I had kind of talked about it earlier, you know, with with my connection, pretty much my my mentor taught me that these are what limited edition releases are and he was able to, like I said, he gave me it at cost. So just to make sure that I'm not dealing with a story like this. I want you all to kind of talk about what are what are those relationships that you formed, that you've gotten, like a really, really good bottle of bourbon out of it just because of fostering relationship like that. I've had a lot. I've had a lot of guests. 56:48 And 56:51 the gentleman, you know, the gentleman passed away unfortunately he was his name is Dale Hamilton. And he 57:00 He was like the last. He was the guy who like got cola approvals for states of Weller. And he was like the last, you know, last guy from United Stiller's, the you know, for, you know, before they close, that's a Weller. And so he has this, you know, he had an incredible collection. And I helped him figure out what some things were, what some bottles meant. And, you know, we just and he came to my legend series at the Kentucky Derby Museum and we just we just became friends. I would visit him at Christmas. You know, he would come and we'd have lunch, he'd play with my kid. And he gave me a 1935 bottle of Weller. 57:46 And that was like a green Green Label blend. And it was fantastic. And the first time I opened it, I cracked it open with Tom Colicchio. From 58:00 Top Chef has just that right after my Top Chef appearance. And I wanted to celebrate with them and so I cracked it open with them. So I had like two, two really cool friends. You know that that that bottle kind of connected me to, you know, coming out of the gate strong here. Yes. Right Ryan, I think you should follow that. Well, I've had some great connections and relationships with people like Bill Thomas was kind enough to invite me to his house and stayed the night crashes. We didn't crash his couch. We had a room but but just his collection like we were at his bar and he's like, Guys, let's just go to my house. It's so much better here. And he had a green, you know, Green Label or not green or green bottle Van Winkle raw one early ditions it's one of the best bottles I've ever had. Drew Cole's been grew up with him from Willits. I mean, he's, he's one of the kindest, generous people he shares a ton of stuff for me, but the one the person I remember the most is probably my 59:00 Brother in law 59:02 I won't name any names but he works at heaven Hill and 59:06 he likes bourbon but he knows how like obsessed I am with him and he always goes out of his way to give me like a Parkers or an old fits release that just came out like he always is just finding ways to give me something and I'll always cherish that so it's all it means a lot to me. That's that's a relationship by blood that's hardly fostered over birth. 59:31 But we grew up friends before you know, brother in law's we were friends before so but yeah, those those are the bottles that are that need the most to me. Absolutely. In my case, it was really about people knowing what my tastes are. And as I kind of grew up in the hobby and grew up in the community, I would have people that would know the things that I enjoy and would suggest that I try something and oftentimes the suggestion would come with a 1:00:00 two ounce bottle of it showing up at my doorstep. And that's how I figured out that I love national distillers products. 1:00:08 Some I was telling somebody kind of the things that I liked about certain things that were my favorites and then before I knew it, there was a bottle of 1960s old granddad bonded 1:00:18 that showed up at my doorstep and 1:00:21 I guess I should be upset with them because it's caused me to lose a whole lot of money after that. 1:00:27 It sounds like that sounds like Ryan Ryan went on a huge old granddad kick for a while. Oh, gosh, you know it for me any of that old nationalist killer stuff is really just killer. It kind of hits me right in whatever my sweet spot is, for whatever reason, I'm telling we're Barban friends now. Hey, 1:00:44 I got some stuff to send you. 1:00:47 But 1:00:48 that, for me is the big is one of the cooler parts of the community is, you know, people who know you and I know other people's tastes and if I see something for 1:01:00 example I got a buddy who was a big q lover at four roses, and I'm not. And anytime I see a really good q i know exactly who it's going to a CPA office in Indiana. 1:01:15 Because I just, I know that somebody that will appreciate it for more than I. That's where we go. Yeah, it really is. I mean, and I think that's a good way to kind of start wrapping this up because we, you know, we really hit on a lot of things of, really, how do we how do we find your bourbon people? Right? I mean, it all starts by a friend or somebody introduces you to bourbon. It's very rare that any of us just stumble it on our own or, or maybe maybe you do get turned on to it by social media or for the general Media TV or purposes and stuff like that. But for the majority of us, there's somebody that gives us that introduction, and I think that we have all been in 1:02:00 situation to, and I know anybody that's probably listening to this podcast, you know, you're, you're one of the you're one of the geeks out there, you're one of the people that truly hone in on this craft, and you really appreciate it. So odds are is that you're sharing the love of bourbon with somebody else. And so that's just how everything continues to flourish and grow. And then from there yet, then it becomes like, oh, add me on Facebook, we add you to a few groups. And then at that point, you you've just you're all in and as, as Jeremy had mentioned earlier, the boxes just start showing up on your front door and, and your PayPal account gets a little lower, but that's just how it works. 1:02:39 That's just how it works. So, gentlemen, and Jeremy, thank you so much for joining tonight. This is again, a fun topic. And you know, I'll go ahead and kind of let you kind of say what you're gonna say there. I don't think I was gonna say anything. 1:02:55 To Are you 1:02:58 looking at me 1:03:00 You 1:03:01 know, it's it's the rule of thumb is just, I mean, I guess it's the rule of thumb for more than just the bourbon community, but don't be an asshole. 1:03:10 Yep. So you know, if you if you just be a nice guy, it's amazing what kind of connections you're come up with. And 21 Kings is picking up a barrel of will it right here in a couple weeks, and I'm fortunate enough to be one of the people doing it. And I never would have gotten the chance to do anything like that. Had I not been able to be a part of these communities. And it's really cool. It's some of the coolest experiences I've gotten to have and really thankful for that. You know, I guess the other bad thing about being in these communities too, is I didn't realize for years, I could just drive down to willet and just go pick up bottles in the gift shop and 1:03:47 I could have been doing it. I could have been doing it all along. And I just I just didn't know. So 1:03:53 that's the that's the bad part of it. But it's, it's also a good thing because you add a lot more appreciation for what you do have so 1:04:00 Again, everybody, thank you so much for joining tonight. Jeremy, do you have any kind of social handles or anything like that where people can find out more about you? Anybody who wants to I guess I'm around on Facebook Jeremy Mendell Twitter at Jeremy Mendell, Instagram at Jeremy Mendell, if you want to talk to me for some strange reason I'm available. Never know, I know where to send. If I see I know he so I know who to call and all of your VSOs to me, and I'll figure out some way to repay you that you'll be happy about. Very interesting. Very interesting. I know you kind of want to just go pick a whole barrel of Oh, yes. Oh, now just get out of them. I actually did I like I'd have one. It was from my pics from the icons of whiskey when I picked those fucking which was at the 17 or 18. 1:04:53 Yeah, we had all the recipes. It was I think that was a 1:04:59 I think it was like a 1:05:01 11 year old Yeah, that was I think the 2017 one that was really good and it's incredibly dorky that I can just pull out of my head 1:05:13 so that was when I was with whisky magazine and yeah that we did that. And that was like the one of the only times you saw all the all the recipes and that was back when four roses. I think they brought out 40 barrels from for us to taste and guide you lucky forget for now. So it's the way the world now. Alright, let's go. Let's go ahead and we'll sign off. So again, Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on tonight. It was a pleasure talking to you. And seriously, thank you so much for bringing this topic up. Because it's it's fun to kind of, you know, really take a retrospective look into really kind of how we all got here and why many people are still actually listening to this podcast because they all have some sort of coming of age tale that's probably very very similar. So 1:06:00 Make sure you check out Jeremy and all those social handles, make sure you check out bourbon pursuit as well as spread MiniK on the Twitter, the Facebook and the Instagrams. And if you're like Jeremy, and you want to help support the show, he's part of our community, you can be part of our community as well. patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit. So thank you, everybody. That is a part of it. And thank you, everybody that joined into the chat and watch us live. Another perk of just being a part of the community is you can be a part of these things as they're happening and be able to just chat along with us. So with that, thank you, everybody, and talk to you all next week. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The tables are turned this week as Stacey gets on the other side of the microphone. Kerri Sparling, writer of the long-running and popular blog SixUntilMe and now Children with Diabetes board member, interviews Stacey about her experience raising a child with type 1, what led her to claim "The World's Worst" title and much more. This is part of Children With Diabetes Celebrating Storyteller series. "There are some amazing storytellers in the diabetes community, and many of those folks have spent years honing their craft through blogs, books, and videos. Their stories of life with diabetes bring our community closer. Sharing stories helps make the journey with diabetes less isolated and instead paved with hope and camaraderie. (text from the CWD website) Stacey was excited to be selected to be part of this storyteller series, and even happier to be interviewed by Kerri. You can watch the video here, read the transcript below or, of course, listen to the audio on this episode. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! you can win a copy from CWD - must enter by March 20th. ----- Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! ----- Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android   Episode Transcript: This episode of diabetes Connections is brought to you by the world's worst diabetes mom real life stories of parenting a child with Type One Diabetes available as a paperback ebook and audiobook at Amazon and at diabetes connections.com. This is diabetes connections with Stacey Simms. Welcome to another week of the show. I am so glad to have you along. As always, I'm your host Stacey Sims. This is a little bit of a different week around here because we released our regular Tuesday interview episode early. If you haven't listened to that yet, it was all about the corona virus and basic information that people with diabetes need to know. Thanks very much to Gary Scheiner CDE and the director, founder of integrated diabetes services. He is always a very calm and informative presidents. He also has a great sense of humor, but I wanted to get that show out. pretty quickly, because you know, of course, as the situation is changing, podcasting is tough to get breaking news out. But we wanted to make sure to get basic information from a good source out to the diabetes community, because I've been seeing and I'm sure it's only gotten worse, a lot of rumors and the beginnings of some panic. So I hope you listened to Gary or read the interview as well, because I put it out as a blog post with just that interview, as well as a transcript with the entire episode. And I hope you've been able to share that a lot of people picked up on it and I really hope it's helped give you some good information. We'll do more as the situation changes if we need to get more information out there. And then this week is a little different because I usually do a mini episode here, where I'm just talking about one topic kind of an editorial, but I'm going to be bringing you an interview that Carrie Sperling did with me now carry most of you know, wrote the long running blog six until me she retired that last year. She's doing a lot of great work with children with diabetes. This is the group that among many other things, puts on those great friends for life conferences, the big one in July every year, smaller regional conferences throughout the year. And they do a lot of really good work in terms of information, and community outreach. So Carrie is doing some of these interviews and I was so excited to be able to talk to her. You may have seen it, they put it out as a YouTube video and I will link that right up. You want to stop right here and go to the video instead of listening. It's the exact same interview except to get to see us and it made me realize I need to work on the lighting in my office. But the information I hope is good. We talked about what led me to write the world's worst diabetes mom a lot about you know, parenting Benny, my son diagnosed right before he turned to 13 plus years ago now, privacy issues Carrie has shared this in her own life. You know, how much do you share online? How much do you not? How do you decide that? And it was really a fun conversation. It's always a A little weird to be on the other side of the microphone.   Unknown Speaker  3:02 It's not   Stacey Simms  3:02 my comfort zone. But here we go. Anyway, here is the interview that Carrie Sparling did with me.   Kerri Sparling  3:09 I am here today to talk to Stacey Simms   Stacey Simms  3:12 about this, oh my goodness,   Kerri Sparling  3:14 I had to climb on my bookshelf to get it down because I accidentally put it on the shelf that I couldn't reach without a stool. So thank you for giving me morning exercise for that. I appreciate it. But um, I Okay, let me make this more formal. I am very appreciative that you've taken the time to talk to me, and then we're going to broadcast this to the children with diabetes community and then share it through our different channels. So thank you for making yourself available. I know this has been chaotic, getting them on the line.   Stacey Simms  3:38 This is what I get out of TV, when really we just need to stick to radio, but I really appreciate it Carrie. Thank you.   Kerri Sparling  3:43 My pleasure. And so I want to jump right in because I've already kept so much of your morning already. So just if you could for a minute just introduce yourself to the community that may not know you already so they can get a sense of who you are, and then we'll get into the book.   Stacey Simms  3:54 Oh, sure. So my name is Stacy. My son Ben. He was diagnosed more than 13 years ago, which is bananas, time just flies, but he was not yet two years old. He was diagnosed with type one when he was 23 months. I have an older daughter Her name is Leah. She is three years older than him over there four years apart in school and I say that cuz she's a freshman in college now and he's a freshman in high school. I started a blog about a month after Ben he was diagnosed at the time I was working as a morning radio show host I had been a TV anchor and reporter that's the I hate pictures. Because it's all the makeup and the hair and the you know, I'm looking at myself like my headphones are so big on this is not good. I distract myself. Um, but then I started the blog and then four years ago, I started a podcast and then last year I wrote the   Kerri Sparling  4:39 book. That's that is awesome. And so so you've been sharing a lot of your family's experience and your personal experience with centered around diabetes, but going right into Stacey Simms, the world's worst diabetes mom. So this title obviously feels a little tongue in cheek because you are clearly very involved, clearly clever and also on top of things that are going on in your kids. In your family's health, so why did you call it this?   Stacey Simms  5:03 The book title came about because I had actually been working on a parenting advice book about raising a child with type one for a couple of years. And it was really boring. And it was really like had been done before. There are so many great books, especially, you know, from a layperson perspective, there are so many great books by medical professionals that can really tell you how to better manage, and I didn't want to just say, here's our story, and here's what I think. And I was writing that book, but I wasn't, I wasn't jazzed by it. It was kind of just writing, you know, old blogs and my publisher and said, Oh, put your old blogs together. We'll just put those out. You know, that just didn't sound right. To me. No friends really resonates like old blogs like it. So I was in a Facebook group, having a discussion like I still do, I foolishly still go into Facebook groups because I want to help people and I get help to still and we had a disagreement and it got heated. I really I felt strongly that this was an okay way to manage and the person was so mean and said, you're gonna you're gonna kill your child you're you're terrible parent, you know really went there. And I just said, Well, I must be the world's worst diabetes Mom, you and I slammed the computer shut and I walked away and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is it not not even think about the book but this is who I am I want to talk about making mistakes. I want to talk about living with less fear. I want to talk about not always being a slave to your beats. Are you okay? Do you need a juice box?   Unknown Speaker  6:33 Sorry, and beeping, then one of those days, but everything is fine. Thank you for asking.   Stacey Simms  6:36 But I just wanted to, I realized in that moment that I did have something to say. And it wasn't just about the old blogs. And I went back I screenshot of the conversation because I thought well, maybe this guy is bananas. It's gonna come after me. But I also deleted it. Because we didn't need my anger out there either. It wasn't just Hey, I was ugly too. So I got past that and I thought let's talk about all the mistakes I've made because we Made a ton of mistakes. And it's not a question about being a bad parent or a good parent, sure, you're gonna make mistakes with your kids, whether they have diabetes or not. And let's use those examples of mistakes to talk about resiliency and confidence and, and I think my son is better off for all the mistakes I made.   Kerri Sparling  7:16 I hope that applies to parenting outside of the realm of diabetes, because I'm not a perfect mom myself. And so it's reassuring to hear that stumbling leads to success, even if it's a modified version of the success you thought you were going towards. So I really appreciate that. And I also like the fact that it's not like here's how to be perfect by Stacey Simms, because that really puts people on their heels like you can't take advice from someone that you have on a pedestal it's always a lot easier to have a peer to peer conversation and that's why I feel like your book reads through it very a resonated for me and I'm an adult the diabetes not raising a child with diabetes but reading your perspectives gave me a lot of insight on maybe conversations that my mom and I never had or my email just think the cross Can you see that when it comes across You know, you're supporting the note cuz he's just some weird emails. But I just have a couple notes. I just wanted to look through this. But when I was reading through the book, there's the story of the first night that you guys are home with, with Benny. And, and it hit me really hard because I was thinking about my own two kids. And like I said, they don't have diabetes, but I was putting myself in your position. And it's so easy to be the person with diabetes from my perspective, but it is very, very different to be the person who carries just as much, but it's like 10,000 feet away for so much of the experience. And so do you think that it's important to have those stories shared like stories like yours and stories from adults with type one, so that we can kind of create a, an amalgam story sort of thing, like, why is that important?   Stacey Simms  8:37 I think it's a great question, because it's it's so important to recognize that the two experiences run in tandem, but they are so separate, as well. Right? We're never really going to separate them. We can't pretend they're the same. So a person with diabetes is having one experience a parent of a child with diabetes is having a totally different experience, obviously tied to By diabetes, and I, you've already said, Oh, I think it's you know, it's worse to be the parent, you've implied that by something you said, which is fine. I mean, I almost every adult with type one I know, says all my mom, it was so much harder on her.   Kerri Sparling  9:10 We're not saying it to make you feel better. We're saying, we believe that fun. Yeah,   Stacey Simms  9:14 I understand. But I disagree, because I'm not beeping, and I can walk away from it. But at the same time, it's not a question of comparing, right. And I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I'm not saying that you're doing that. But I think it's really important that we see these experiences as equally important, but very different, but then tied together. So telling all of these stories. I'm hopeful that Benny, when he gets a little older, we'll look back and read it. And he knows what he knows the stories we actually shared that ahead of time. We talked about what I could put in the book, but I'm hoping that he'll see it and kind of think, Oh, well, that was not my experience, but I'm glad to know it.   Kerri Sparling  9:50 Well, of course and you were saying it's not it's it's not about comparing them. I think it's about making a cohesive story around them like my low felt like this, but it looked and felt to my mother like this and meshing those two stories together together gives us a broader experience touch point. And I think that's so important, especially for like a teenage kid who might pick up your book and read it. And when they're in that angsty, angry part of diabetes, and they might be so furious with their parents to get your perspective on that might help segue a good conversation with their own parents. That's why I don't think this book is just for parents of kids with diabetes at cross collateralize is the whole community you know? I don't know. I think that's accurate. I'm gonna toot your horn for you that way.   Stacey Simms  10:28 One thing I think it's really interesting to talk about is you mentioned like the not perfect parenting thing. And I think it's we're under pressure, regardless of diabetes is parents right? You can't win you really can't. But I also think it's funny when you look at a lot of parenting blogs and parenting writings. It's either I'm a perfect parent and you should aspire to look like this. It's perfect Instagram photos or whatever, you know, look like us do like us eat like us. Or you have the oh I don't know what I'm doing.   Unknown Speaker  10:54 I'm so crazy on motherhood is that you know, I'm a man I look at my and I really that doesn't speak to Neither,   Kerri Sparling  11:00 right we are middle lane.   Stacey Simms  11:02 We are smart, we are strong. We are sometimes a mess. We are sometimes perfect. And I really I'm not. I know that sound like I was making fun. You know what I mean? If these archetypes, especially women we get put into, right. I'm a hard driving success story or I'm so clumsy. I fell into my man, you know, I mean, I hate that. So I tried to really in this book, kind of encapsulate, you know who I am, but who I think a lot of other moms are too, right. competent, confident,   Kerri Sparling  11:29 but not having it all together. Now might be an important part to bring up the fact that I'm wearing normal clothes from the waist up, but sweat tears from the waist down. So like I think that sort of is the it's the template for that. They need you there we go. Wait, you you would actually skipped ahead to something I wanted to ask you about. Sorry. Should No no, that's fine. This is good, though. When you're using the questions, I know and I don't normally write my stuff down. But I'm organized today. Um, but yeah, we talked about when you first started sharing your stories, and Benny was home that first night That sort of stuff. And you used to write about Benny's personal experiences and yours. And as he's gotten older, and his experiences become more his, you've said that you've stepped away a little bit from telling his stories and have embraced. I can't describe it for you. But like, what, what's it like to decide to share x in the beginning, and what makes you transition to the y?   Stacey Simms  12:19 I think it's such an important conversation. It was interesting in the beginning, and I do wish that I'd given my kids just a little bit more privacy by changing their names, or giving them nicknames. The problem for me was I was already on the radio. And we had a show where it was mostly political news. But we did talk about our personal lives a little bit. So my listeners knew when I started at that station, I had a one year old daughter. And then when I was working at that station, I was pregnant and then I had a baby and here's Benny in the hospital, you know, it was a different experience than just blogging. So it didn't really occur to me at the time and social media. Certainly what it is now isn't wasn't then what it is now. It was a different experience. But when you have a toddler, you have a baby, I mean, even going back, I was Careful at the time not to overshare I but as he got older you realize, you know people are reading this people are looking at this. There were there were only some experiences that I felt comfortable sharing and it wasn't just the good stuff, right? We shared things that things went wrong. I thought that was important. But I'm I'm on the record. I sound like a broken record. You know, I don't share my Sunday one. See, I don't have that. I don't like you know, do not share photos of your child in distress. You know, no hospital pictures. I wish I had pictures of him in the hospital and he was diagnosed for me. Sure. But you know, we didn't have our phones with us. 24 seven at that point, especially didn't have cameras on them, which sounds so ancient.   Kerri Sparling  13:43 I mean, this is what it is right? Like when I was diagnosed with diabetes, I had to pee in a bucket to test it. So like things had to not a bucket. I mean, let's be realistic about this. But you know, things have progressed and with it the the conversation about what to share and not to share and so, I mean, you talked already about not sharing his anyone see? And I think personally, I am on the same page with you about that no one needs my personal data points because their mind in their personal, but that there's a broad spectrum of decision making processes around that sort of stuff. So what made you decide not to do that?   Stacey Simms  14:14 Well, I think I'll just put a caveat in there, I think, to not mindlessly share, right? Sometimes it makes sense if you're trying to talk through something or get advice or share a situation or, or say, hey, look at this difficult situation we worked through and now we're celebrating I mean, just mindlessly is the word I tried to use about it. But what changed was when he was about seven, I think I read something by Moore McCarthy, who is a mentor of mine, and she's longtime blogger, author, I mean, yeah, faculty, you know, I probably saw her speak there and got this information, but she really encouraged me and others to think about it. And once I stopped to think about it, I realized there's no reason for my seven year olds health information to be on the internet. I'm not posting my weight and my cholesterol. And you know, my blood pressure. It's the same thing. We don't see it that way, right? But it really is. And that once I thought about it, it changed everything for me and I started sharing more, you know, great endo visit no changes, everything's on track or great endo visit. We had a whole conversation about changes we have to make sure sometimes like bad, you know, bad can be good when you get the information. Yeah, I love the finger quotes.   Kerri Sparling  15:27 But I feel like that's an important part of it too, because it's not truly bad or truly good. There's a right   Stacey Simms  15:32 dial up stations get better when you get away from the numbers. I agree. You know, you can you can have more in depth about how you're feeling and what advice you're looking for. And that sort of thing. So I've shared with friends when I've said old I'm upset about this, or can you help me with that? That's different.   Kerri Sparling  15:46 Yeah, no, of course because that's your actual personal life but broadcasting it to the broader internet as a different person retired. As a kid who grew up with Type One Diabetes, that's my perspective. And yours is parenting a kid who's growing up with Type One Diabetes. How How do you feel about I mean, you see a lot of memes from parents about parenting in general where they have like the curlers, half in their hair, and the bathrobe and the coffee cup dangling off of one arm, and they're like, parenting is so exhausting. And that feels universally haha. But when I see that same sort of meme applied to diabetes, like, this is what a parent of a kid with diabetes looks like. And they just look bedraggled and rotten and exhausted and as an adult with type one that applies a guilt to my experience that I didn't see coming. And so I'm just curious what you think about things that paint diabetes in a light that maybe they don't realize is shining directly on their kid. When parents tell those sorts of stories? Yeah, it is a great question because the reality is, maybe you didn't sleep that great last night, right? Maybe you were up three times treating a low. But are you talking about me because that was my nightlight?   Stacey Simms  16:49 Well, I do have Do you have a baby can still because there was a signal in my house. No, I   Unknown Speaker  16:52 do.   Stacey Simms  16:55 It No, I'm talking about the parent, right. So if a parent has to do that, and then wants to go on from But the next day and start talking about how hard it was. I can understand that. But I do think and my favorite meme about this and I don't think it started as a diabetes parenting meme. I think it's just a parenting meme. But it's like, you know, an 87 year old woman, and that it says like, well, parenting is hard. You know, my I'm celebrating my 23rd birthday tomorrow. Money. But I do think that you've hit it on the head, that's going to be my would share about diabetes. I think it's difficult to know where to draw that line. And we don't, we don't think because what we're doing not to get all psychological. But in doing some research for a recent podcast I was doing I found a great article about this and I can send you the link but when we're sharing things like that we're looking for likes, right because our brain As humans, we need support. We're looking for community. We actually like to get the good Brain Stuff going the dopamine or whatever, when you get the right weights real and physical and social hosting, something like that, you know, is going to bring in more of that. And it's not made up. It's not fake. Oh, yeah.   Kerri Sparling  18:09 Feeling it all   Stacey Simms  18:10 really happens. But there are better ways of doing it. I think and as you were alluding to, if we, as parents of kids with type one, don't listen to adults with type one, we miss out on this kind of conversation, because no seven or eight year old is going to say, you know, it kind of hurt my feelings or I, I really processed some guilt when you posted that, right? They're not gonna say that they may not even realize it, but we need to be mindful of that kind of stuff. And I think it's fine to have fun and you know, maybe share that privately. But um, you know, I I'm really try hard not to make diabetes, the focus of everything and not show that guilt because that's just parenting anyway.   Unknown Speaker  18:48 Right? It's just an added thing.   Stacey Simms  18:50 It is just an added thing. It's like not to get too far off topic, but when people are freaking out about sending their kids to sleep overs, sure, right, because something might happen when I was in second grade Jennifer Look, it's like At my house, we had a babysitter. We didn't eat that my parents and she put her leg on my bed. It was the 70s. It was like some metal crazy trundle bed. She cut her leg bad enough that we had to go to the ER and get stitches.   Unknown Speaker  19:10 Oh, wow. How do you prepare for that? I don't think you do.   Stacey Simms  19:15 Things happen on sleep overs. emergencies happen. Parents who say I'm gonna have sleep over have to be prepared for weirdness. And to me diabetes falls under that category. But that's a decision you have to make. And I think it's the same thing with that kind of a mean, you kind of have to make the decision of, there's a difference between, everything's fine, everything's fine. Everything's fine, which I've been guilty of for a long time. It's fine. It's fine. I'm not gonna worry about it. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I don't need any help. I'm fine. And there's a difference between that and what was me everything's terrible. Like, like sucks and you know, oh, my God, diabetes is the worst. You gotta you gotta find that medium and you've got to, at least to your children, I think it's important to fake it, but be careful about stuff like I might.   Kerri Sparling  19:57 I like what you said earlier because I read a lot about my fulness and being mindful and making sure that you're mindful, but the fact that you've cited mindlessness as a potential alternative to that, like, don't be mindless, don't share mindlessly consider the you know, the course of your actions that you're taking and how it might influence your kid. That is a huge takeaway already. For me from this conversation. It doesn't apply just to parenting diabetes, I think it applies to the whole mess being Don't be mindless about the things that you're sharing. I think that's a really, really good tip.   Stacey Simms  20:26 It's funny because I stink at being mind. Right? You're like, Oh, no, take your time when you eat and drink your tea and fever and, you know, take them home. I really don't think I can do that. But I can take an extra 10 seconds and think do I want to post this photo?   Kerri Sparling  20:39 Of course, not. In a mindfulness exercise once I was asked to spend one minute eating one m&m, and it was really strange experience and I'm sure it was really effective, but for me, it made me feel very stressed out. We can get into that later, but because we've talked a lot about parenting, and I'm sorry to be going back to my notes here. You You talked about it experience where you and your family are you at least and Benny and Leah met Nick Jonas, and how this was truly more of a thing for Leah, your daughter than it was for your son who is the one who has diabetes. And there's something that you wrote that really stuck with me because I feel like parenting a kid with diabetes, that parent is acknowledged a lot, which is fantastic. The child with diabetes is acknowledged quite a bit because they become the focal point of that narrative. But the siblings of kids with diabetes end up on this weird purgatory peripheral area, and they're not often acknowledged. And you wrote that at the end of meeting with Nick Jonas, that you had said the diabetes was in our lives. But she Leah knew we wouldn't let it take over she knew she wasn't going to be left behind and reading that now gives me goosebumps for reading it then also did too because it acknowledges a group of people that need just as much support as I do as a kid, as you do as a parent. And when I think about children with diabetes in the organization, the programming really speaks to that as well. It's not just for parents, it's not just for adults with type one is for the siblings. It really embraces the whole family. So because your wrote that awesome line. Could you say a little bit more about supporting a sibling   Stacey Simms  22:04 and, and the children's diabetes? I mean that friends for life Leah has come. And Mr. Summer schedules are always crazy. So it's rare that either one of my kids can come and like I still go, but I had a I had a blast, and she didn't really think she would. She kind of came as a favor to me.   Kerri Sparling  22:21 But she was when she was I   Stacey Simms  22:23 think she was 14 or 13. She was a teen. So she was in the teen programming. And you know, Benny was still too young to be in that programming. So they were separate. Yep. And she knew she was gonna get to go to a Disney park, which was amazing, you know, when state of fancy hotel with me and it was great. And she I don't think I saw her much. You know, she thought, Well, I'm not gonna do this. You know, we'll see how it goes. And it was wonderful, but it's really hard. You know, that's one of the few programs that there is for siblings. When when he was diagnosed, we got this reminder really off the bat and it did help us set the tone he was in high But on the Saturday, and on Sunday, I had an event that I had planned. And I do talk about this in the book. But it was an ice skating event uptown. So uptown from my house is about 45 minutes. Okay. And I was the only link between these two groups. It was a group from near my house and a group from your my work. Well, the skating rink was my work. They sponsored the rink. I didn't. I was working at a radio station that sponsored the rig. And I knew that somebody could take care of it, but it was going to be difficult. And Leah reminded me like we're still gonna go ice skating, right. We're still gonna go ice skating because I live in the south. Ice skating is exotic. No, it really is. I grew up in New York. I'm like, oh, there's never been she likes frozen ice that you walk on. Amazing, right? Magic. So I said to my husband, I'm like, We're going he's like heck yeah, go take her and he stayed the hospital and that was the day after my not your two year old was diagnosed and I'm thinking is this the right decision? Is this this is a terrible This is the world's worst diabetes mom because here I am leaving the hospital. But as soon as I I got outside I knew was the right thing. And that was the day that we said we can't let this take over our lives. So you have to be careful. Like, I don't I don't I say this not to judge but just again with that mindlessness and that mindfulness or you know, if you signs in your house that are like in this house, we're blood sugar fighting, you know, ketone, chicken, whatever it is, look, the science we will have in their kitchen. Nobody, I mean, if they're all diabetes related, of course, yeah. You know, have to be kind of careful unless you also have ice skating, hockey playing, you know, unless you want to have a litany of everything your family does. You know, I'm mindful of like, how many t shirts do I actually wear that say diabetes stuff on them all the time. And making sure like, I have stuff from my daughter's programming, and frankly, from Benny's programming that's not diabetes related. It's that kind of little thing I think that siblings really pick up on, like, if you name your dog or your cat or your goldfish after diabetes stuff, you know, it's a family pad. I mean, if it's a diabetes alert doc that might be different. I just think these are things that as simple We kind of forget, you know, they're always they're always watching and they're tallying. And you have to be honest with them that diabetes gets more attention. But with Leah, just having the conversation over and over again really helped. I mean, when she was 15, she and I had a great conversation about it. She said, I was really upset about it. And now I get it. Oh, it was amazing. I mean, he probably is back to being upset about it now.   Kerri Sparling  25:22 But it was great. You guys can talk about it is really nice, because a lot of times that animosity isn't voiced, and nobody has areas to sort of air their concerns. And so it's good that you give her space and like we mentioned in friends for life, people have that space to get that stuff out there. Oh, yeah.   Stacey Simms  25:35 I'm the over communicating Mom, you're like enough.   Unknown Speaker  25:39 Talking to me.   Kerri Sparling  25:42 We've talked about community, we've talked about sharing, we've talked about Facebook and the pluses and minuses of that sort of stuff. And it and it led me to the story that you had written about Benny losing his insulin pump. And then after that, you would, which I think is an amazing discussion about the cost of supplies, and how even small Children are mindful of the cost of things. And we'll get back to that in a second. But after that story you had mentioned, places to find support for when you have gaps like that, or you have issues like that. And I would love some perspective from you on as a parent whittling down this massive diabetes online community that we have access to, to a manageable size that kind of caters to what people might be looking for, like, advice for someone who's just jumping in and saying, there's so much how do I find what's best suited for me?   Stacey Simms  26:26 Yeah, absolutely. I think the best thing to do is if you're already online where where do you like to be? Right? Do you like Twitter? Do you like Facebook? You like Instagram, Pinterest? You got to find your house, like where do you like to live? And then once you're there, find your people. And let's have a Facebook cuz that's probably the biggest for parents. I know Instagram is a lot bigger than the last couple of years. But Facebook groups are still really really active for parents. And my advice there is be careful again, not to turn your Facebook into diabetes book which is what happened to me. I am in I am in 50 Five Facebook groups about diabetes. Now granted, I joined Facebook in 2008. So I had around for a while.   Kerri Sparling  27:07 Well, I'm just it was the look on your face. It wasn't like I'm so proud to be in 55 horrified to be in 55 it was a real mashup of the both   Stacey Simms  27:15 emotions. And that's exactly how I feel. So, because I'm like, I want to be here. And I like the vibe of this group. I like the information in this group. And I like to put my podcast in this group. But what I did was I muted the majority of this groups and that has been phenomenal. If you're not familiar as you're watching or listening. It's very easy to do, you can just mute the group. I think you unfollow the group might be the technical term, but you don't leave the group. So that way, when you want to dip into those waters, it's up your time. And my Facebook feed went back to being my real life, which is my friends, the stuff does the dumb things. I follow in a little bit of diabetes, and then I can jump back in whenever I want to. And Facebook Of course will find you you know if there's something interesting, put it right in your face, on Twitter if you're there, which is Just a crazy place to be the best, just all the politics and mess but DSM a is still your diabetes, social media advocacy is still the best hashtag on Twitter. They still do the Wednesday night chats. Those are wonderful. Instagram I'm struggling with just a little bit only because I like the realness of the stories and things that people I know that out. But I've been trying to follow more people and I'm not knocking anybody, you're all wonderful and beautiful. But I have talked to two influencer type people and I complimented one of them. That was such a beautiful shot in your hair looks so good. And you know, she said, Stacy, I have a hair person and a photographer.   Unknown Speaker  28:40 Diabetes person. What   Stacey Simms  28:43 if I had if I had a hair person and photographer I could change the world. I do wear pants. I'd be wearing pants. I would have better headphones because wearing Benny's beats I thought these would be smaller. You have cute little earbuds I don't know I haven't no here but I studio cans that are like this big I thought would be even more Your cancer headphones in the biz. But I just, you know, I can't do the influencer thing. So you but you as you listen, you might love that that might be your thing, go for it. But I think you have to find where you live where you where you feel comfortable, where's your vibe, and then you'll find your people but don't let it get overwhelming. And if you find somebody that wants to call you the world's worth diabetes. You walk away walk away unless you have a book. But I mean, really, it's not worth the argument. If someone tells me I'm wrong, I'm not going to change their life probably. Maybe I can help. I've got a good discussion going in my local group right now about finding babysitters. There are people locally I run a face for parents in the Charlotte area. Okay, started a few years back and it's been amazing. And there's a discussion right now people like I will never be able to leave my children alone. Yes, you will. And here's how. And so we're trying to help each other kind of get past that right. So   Kerri Sparling  29:59 that's See, I feel like the internet is fantastic. And it's done such a great job of connecting people who don't live anywhere near one another. But when it comes right down to human connection that people really crave in those moments of need, that hyper local stuff is huge. You can recommend a babysitter to me, but they're of no use to me in Rhode Island. But for the people who live down the street from you, they can go and call that person and they can actually hire them out. And that's, that says a lot to about the diabetes community how willing people are to give those really harder and resources and to share it with their,   Stacey Simms  30:28 with their people. That's beautiful. It is absolutely amazing. And you think I mean, I know this is a CWT interview, but the first thing that comes to my mind is going to that conference or any of the conferences that they put on. I don't even worry about what I'm packing my pack everything Ben he needs but you know if he's anything, somebody's got it, and they'll have you a 2am you know, it's just an amazing community. And I don't know, I think especially locally, knowing that we might see each other at the grocery store. Like that Facebook group is probably one of the nicest groups. I'm in   Unknown Speaker  30:59 You'll have to own what they say, right? Because they may see you over avocados.   Stacey Simms  31:02 I know who you are, right?   Kerri Sparling  31:06 We've run through the questions that I had structured for the book and my preparation. But is there anything else that you feel like it would be really pertinent to share with the specifically the CW, the audience,   Stacey Simms  31:14 one of the things I've learned just doing the podcast and now on this book tour that I've been on this year, it's just fascinating as the technology gets better and better, and you know, Benny's on the newest software from tandem, and, you know, there's all sorts of great stuff coming out. It's interesting how the change from 13 years ago seems to be almost more fearful. And it's not that it's not so much that people are afraid to let their kids do things. It's that they're afraid to let their kids get out of range. I think I'm seeing that a little bit among adults as well. Now my adult view is skewed to a lot of the influencers and people that you know, sometimes I see in person, but there's this that's another thing with the the world's worst is, you know, talking about staying in range was never part of my repertoire was like go play football, and we'll figure out how to put diabetes in the picture. I'm learning that a lot of people have. We have amazing technology. It's changed so much just in the last few years. And we need to encourage each other to use that technology to live fuller lives, rather than use the technology to post graphs. And it's just remarkable to even say that to a parent who was diagnosed, compared who was diagnosed, I mean, I've gotta watch language. No, I   Kerri Sparling  32:23 will go back to that in a second. You're right. You are right. My mommy got me it was a wee thing. Just, it was a different version of wheat. So that's a very fair statement.   Stacey Simms  32:31 I think with a 15 year old to I'm really trying to change my language over it's hard   Kerri Sparling  32:35 so of him. So I mean, his health is is your mental well being right. I mean, there's, there's no separation there. It's sorry to go on a tangent.   Stacey Simms  32:43 Well, this is a great discussion. This could be for another time too. And we'll talk more in person, but I think it's his diabetes. And I'm it's the family is affected, but it's his. So that's what I mean. And I completely lost Richard.   Kerri Sparling  32:56 Oh, wait. I was waiting to with that. I started ranges range, using technology to your benefit. I sorry,   Stacey Simms  33:06 I got all I get crazy bad language right now it's it's really hard for me to change over. But I just feel like we're finding that this the state of the art. I mean, I know what I'm saying in my community, we have a pilot program where your child is diagnosed, and they give you a dexcom in hospital when you go home. So it sounds great. But the problem is that there unfortunately, I don't know there's enough education and I'm not slamming the CDs and dexcom here has nothing to do with that. It's just the diabetes is hard. And so see everything from the beginning. Maybe you get used to that, but then the dexcom comes off and they don't wanna go to school, or they don't want to go to the waterpark, or they don't want to go on that that field trip or that overnight because they've never been without the depth causeway. And we're more and more and more of that, where I would be like, Oh, I hope your inset still on, you know, an hour but you learn resiliency, you learn stuff like that. Yes, the worst. And that's the story. When he was three, we were at a waterpark. That's in here. Instead came off and his blood sugar went really high because he was terrified of shots in sets at the time. And I thought, you know what this is going to be an hour to he's going to be fine. The long term, my indices stuff like this is okay, as long as we don't do it a lot. And maybe the running around will bring him down. It didn't, you know, so he got with Ari was 400 we change this instead, we got him home, he was fine. No ketones, blah, blah. But in my local group, someone had posted my kids dexcom came off, I'm not sending her the waterpark. I'm like, come on. Yeah, I got it. Right, we got to use this stuff to live better not let it restrict us long way of getting to that point. And that's really where I think I am right now. Because, you know, the technology is fantastic, but your stuffs gonna fall off. Things are going to fail. You know,   Kerri Sparling  34:44 you know, you have to continue on several life after diagnosis thing.   Stacey Simms  34:50 So it's been a long time. Permit this year, I can't believe it. Oh, and then you get to write about driving with diabetes, which is a Book unto itself, start, the book pretty much stops in sixth or seventh grade. So I'm not going to say that I'm an expert at high school yet, because I've only had one kid go through and she didn't have diabetes. So   Kerri Sparling  35:12 Nick Jonas at one time, so there is that there is that kind of coasting through. But um, but and so you have just been so generous with your time and your perspectives, I really, really appreciate it. And if you could just do me one solid real quick and let people know where they can find you online and where they'd be able to pick up a copy of your book. And obviously, we'll be including links to that, you know, and all the notes that are around this video, but hearing it from you is great.   Stacey Simms  35:34 Oh, thank you so much. I think the best place to go is the podcast website, which is diabetes dash connections.com. And then from there, it'll link to every place else the book, the podcast, the blog, blah, blah, blah. And   Kerri Sparling  35:45 so what's the actual URL for that   Stacey Simms  35:48 diabetes dash connections. com. Perfect. And I would love to do a book giveaway.   Kerri Sparling  35:55 Oh, we would love to have a book giveaway so   Stacey Simms  35:57 I can give away. Let's do this. Let's do a paperback And let's do an audio book. Because the audio book was really fun and interesting to do. If you ever do an audio book, it's quite the experience, like reading a dramatic play. It was very strange, very strange, totally different experience than writing it. But we can do a paperback giveaway. And then the audio book, that would be my pleasure, thank you.   Kerri Sparling  36:18 That would be amazing. And I will put a link to the giveaway page in this video and on the web page. But Stacey, thank you so much for your time for your perspectives for what you've given to the diabetes community and just being my friend, I appreciate that.   Stacey Simms  36:30 Thank you for giving me an excuse to put lipstick on today. The giveaway is open until March 20. I will link up all of the information you need. It is at children with diabetes at their giveaway page. You have to go there you can't do it on social media. We're giving away a copy of the book in paperback and an audio book as well. I'm really looking forward to seeing everybody from friends for life and children with diabetes at their conference coming up at the end of this month in Indianapolis. I'm hoping the travel plans you know stay the way we hope we are watching The virus situation I'm really not sure what's going to happen with travel. But Fingers crossed right now that we are able to do this. And I really appreciate partnering with them on this giveaway and being selected for one of their storyteller interviews. So it's really fun. Okay, our next episode next week, we should be back to normal around here minimum normal being a relative term with me. But our next episode is going to be focusing on Lilly, Eli Lilly announced almost two years ago now that they the makers of human log are getting into the pump and pen business. So we will talk to them about how they're progressing on this connected system. It's a smart system and they are partnering recently announced with dex calm, so we will be talking to them about the progress they've made and what it means for the industry. That will be next Tuesday. Okay, I'm Stacey Simms. Until then, be kind to yourself.   Diabetes connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. Benny  38:02 All Rights Reserved all wrongs avenged   Transcribed by https://otter.aid by https://otter.ai  

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with storyteller and strategist Deidre Wright about effectively building a leadership profile. Deidre shares what her leadership journey is looking like so far and talks about how staying true to her values helped her become the leader she is today. She also offers her thoughts about what some black and brown folks are doing that could be hindering them in their leadership development journey.Connect with Deidre on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Instagram!Check out her website!Visit Living-Corporate.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, you know what we do, okay? We come on the show and we have real talk about real things. These real things are actually fairly benign on their face, right? But we take these fairly real topics, and they're real, or rather we make them real, 'cause we're centering black and brown experiences. So today we're talking about building a leadership profile. Now, in building a leadership profile--you know what? I'm not even gonna do that. I'm just gonna go ahead and get into it with our guest, Deidre Wright.Deidre: Yes, that's right. [laughs] Hi.Zach: All right, come on now. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?Deidre: [laughing] I'm good, Zach. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. I've lived a corporate life for most of my career, so it's exciting to talk to you.Zach: No, thank you very much. I'm excited to have you on the show. And see, you know what I did is--those are bars, Deidre. So I said, "Deidre Wright," and you said, "That's right." See, I knew--Deidre: [laughs]Zach: Right? So I'm like--anyway, it's wordplay is all I'm saying. Okay, so for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Deidre: Yeah. So everyone, I'm Deidre Wright. I'm a Bay Area native, and I call myself a storyteller and a strategist because I worked across industries, but mostly what I do is empower clients to effectively tell their stories and create strategies, execute goals, and so I say this because I worked in public health, marketing, and risk management, and with all of those fields I can kind of used that skill set and my--that's my passion. So I graduated from Spelman College with a sociology and anthropology degree with the goal to make the world a better place. Graduated during the recession. It was a little challenging, but I was able to help kind of do that. And so I worked for Kaiser Permanente in public health research, working on a study, learning why girls start childhood puberty earlier. So why puberty is starting earlier and long-term [who?] gets breast cancer, and communicating findings with the public, and then I transitioned to marketing because I found that without a clear call to action people don't really make changes. So I was doing internal marketing for McKesson, helping employees sell their services, and then I landed on insurance, really at first advising [?] companies on their risk management and how to improve that for their companies and later now be, you know, an award-winning director of diversity and inclusion helping companies in insurance promote and advance diversity and inclusion.Zach: You know what? You just had so many just Flex bomb moments in there. First of all, you talked about the fact that you graduated from Spelman. Shout-out to all the Spelmanites, the Spelman Women. Deidre: Woo-woo!Zach: Come on, now. Don't--like, let's not play. [ow sfx] Okay? We gotta shout y'all out. [laughs] And then you had some big names in there. McKesson, Kaiser Permanente. That's incredible. So, you know, you talked about--you're talking a little about just kind of your journey. Again, you named some huge brands in there. I'm looking at your profile, and I'm just gonna look at, like, just the last year and a half, okay? So 2018 you got the NAAIA Emerging Leaders co-chair, your 2018 Dive In Festival San Francisco co-chair, and then you were the 2018 Water Street Club Insurance Rising Star and then the 2019 Insurance Careers Month Emerging Leader. Okay? And that's just, again, the last year and change, but it's relevant because like I said, today we're talking about building your leadership profile. I have a theory, right? And I could be--I could be crazy, 'cause I'm--I'm just looking at the field, Deidre. I don't--you know, I'm not a sociologist or any type of scientist. I'm just kind of looking at the space, right? And I have a theory that black and brown folks in corporate America spend a lot of time trying to make sure that we're just strong individual contributors because, you know, we're conditioned and taught to just do that and for a lot of us, like, the first generation of our families being in corporate America, right? But I believe as time continues forward and the millennial workforce increases and, like, its representation increases within the workplace and we age up in the workplace that there's gonna be a continued demand and opportunity for us to continue to really take on leadership positions. So can you talk a little bit about your journey in becoming a leader and, like, what has that looked like for you?Deidre: Yes, mm-hmm. And I'll have to have a little bit more Flex bomb. So, like I said, I work in the risk management and insurance field, but using my platform and my leader standpoint I've done a lot of fun things, including speaking at events where Barack Obama, Colin Powell, and America [Ferrera?] were on the line-up. Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa--Deidre: Yeah. [laughs, record scratch sfx]Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Let me just pause you so I can do this. [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, continue.Deidre: Thank you. Then having viral LinkedIn, you know, posts, where I have one that has 23,000 views and the other one has 37,000 views, and I say this because no matter what industry or skill set, you can be a leader and use your influence to call attention to the cause that you care about. So what's my leadership journey looking like? I guess no matter what I always focus on setting goals, investing in myself, and taking strategic risks. And, you know, you heard my kind of bio. I've done a lot of different things in different fields, but I always stay true to my values, which was, you know, being strategic and storytelling. And so I say that because what happened was I was, like I said, a contractor for McKesson, and so my contract ended and I had my son the month afterwards. So my vision was take a couple months off, go back to McKesson, do my thing, but they had laid off a bunch of marketing people so I had no job to go back to, and that's when I was like, "Okay, I have a baby. I need to make money. Let me figure this out," and so that's when I kind of got back to my values and my goals, and I was like, "Okay, let me check out insurance and risk management--my mom was in the field, she is doing great--and really think, like, what do I want out of a career and start attacking that." So I started with informational interviews with leaders in the space, because I want to say, like, if you have the secret sauce, I want that recipe, and figuring that out for me. And then taking strategic risks to start and break in myself in the industry of taking jobs, and then once I got the position making the position my own and being a thought leader. The key thing to being a leader I would say that everyone is--figure out your craft and promote it on different channels to help people, whether it's, like, Living Corporate, you know, having this experience and teach people skills, but mostly make strategic moves to always figure out how to promote your expertise and level up by seeing or asking, "What experience in my career is gonna give me the highest ROI for career time?" So if I'm spending three years of my time on this project or 30 minutes speaking on a stage, what is the ROI for this? And that's kind of helped me navigate these different changes in marketing to, you know, insurance, being a broker, from a broker to diversity and inclusion. Having those key processes of assessing goals, being strategic, and, you know, seeing what's worth my time or not.Zach: Let's take a step back though, right? So everything you're saying, 100%. I get it. It makes sense to me. But what would you say to the person who's like, "Look, I don't really know what my focus or passion is. I'm just here. I'm just happy to be here." Like, what advice would you give to that person?Deidre: I would tell them to shift their mindset. Just being happy to be here is--I mean, what are you living a life of, scarcity or abundance? Like, yes, I understand--like I told you, I had a baby and no money. I was thinking like, "Dang," but I had to--I don't know if it was just my maternal instincts or just my hustle, I mean, I was like, "I've got to figure out how to make this work," and so I would just say level up your mindset and think about "Okay, if I'm here, yeah, I'm happy for the situation, but what do I want to do with it? Where do I want to be in three years? How much money do I want to make then? What kind of impact do I want to leave on this platform?" For example, when I was a broker, I always wanted to empower my clients and, like--let me be clear on what I mean by risk management. My clients were Airbnb and Lyft and Starbucks and UPS. Like, big, you know, global clients, and I say that because just like you and me, we want to protect ourselves, [and] we also want to reach goals. And so I would say manage your career like you're managing your risk in yourself and think about, "Okay, if I invest X amount of time in this place, what's the return gonna be for me in reaching my goals?" So I guess I would just say change your mindset to just be more than just happy to be there. Like, think "How am I gonna make this work to be happy and earn my worth?"Zach: I love that. You're absolutely right. You know, it's scary though, and I say this as someone who--I'm trying to put myself in, like, the other person's shoes, 'cause you and I, we vibe on that level because we both are like, "Look, I gotta go get it." I don't have any kids yet, but--[both laugh]--but I get it, right? I am married. It's like, "Okay, look, I gotta--" Like, this can't stop. Like, I gotta keep going, right? At the same time, I ask myself, "Okay, so for the folks who are not necessarily naturally as industrious," right, like, what are some of the, like, just kind of starting steps? And I hear you, right? What I'm hearing is it's about identifying "Okay, what do I want the next 18 months to look like? What do I want the next three years to look like?" And then, like, thinking with the end in mind, then kind of working backwards from there and then asking yourself and kind of asking perhaps a scary question of "Okay, well, then is what I'm doing getting me to that point? Yes or no?"Deidre: Mm-hmm.Zach: Okay. No, that's great. So, you know, it's interesting, what are some of the biggest lessons that you've learned in becoming a leader? And then if I could kind of take a step, like, a little bit below that, as you've been continuing to grow and navigate these spaces, what are things that you see, you know, our black and brown folks doing out there that can hinder them in their leadership development journey?Deidre: Yes. What I learned as a leader--which, it's funny, you know? It's probably like you, Zach. It's like you just do your job and you do it well, and I say that because I consider myself, like, a mentor or a helper, and it's great that I'm a leader, and I'll say that. You know, I take that role, but I just think ultimately it's figuring out what your purpose is and how you can live to that higher calling, but, you know, the real thing is 1. invest in yourself, whether that is taking the time to do the work--for example, like, when I was a broker, I would spend time, hours, reading insurance policies. Now, I don't know, Zach, if that's what you do for fun, but most people don't do that. But I was taking the time so I knew what the heck I was talking about, and I had that confidence in front of my client when I am the only millennial, only black person, only woman in the room. And so you've gotta take time to invest yourself. You know, I had an executive coach who was helping me, you know, through the program and to really figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do and when I was investing that time. Going to conferences, meeting people, networking. You have to do these things if you want to get far, and for us, you know, black and brown people, two things I would kind of say is 1. be strategic and understand no one is gonna invest time in you as much as you. So if you're waiting for your company to tap you on the shoulder saying, "I know you're gonna be a leader," yeah, that might happen passively, but only you can really give all of your effort into doing that. And then two, part of my job is that I organize events and plan them for the industry to I guess really just bond people and give them tools and resources for D&I through events and stuff. So for example, I'm planning a national diversity and inclusion conference that's coming up, and I say that because I look for speakers. I want speakers. I also judge a national woman in insurance award, [?], and so I assess and judge women leaders and their profiles to see who are worthy of these awards. Now, rarely do I see at our events people volunteering who are people of color or whoever to be speakers at events from a technical standpoint, you know? And rarely do I see people nominate themselves for awards. So the biggest thing is advocate for yourself and put yourself out there, because if you don't do that, then who will? So I think that's the biggest missed opportunity. Working hard's not enough. You've got to really advocate and promote your brand, because people want to help you. People want diverse leaders more than ever. I will tell you right now. Companies are investing in diversity and inclusion, and they want leaders. We just had a diversity survey, my company Business Insurance, studying diversity in our industry. We had over 800 people do it, and one fo the questions were what is the biggest barrier to increasing diversity in our industry, and for the second time around it was "we can't find minorities with the right skill set." And I don't necessarily believe that is my case. I just think it's perception. If people don't perceive there are leaders there, then they're not gonna tap you in for opportunities. So speak out and promote yourself to be that leader they see. Zach: No, 100%, and let me double-click on one thing you just said. I'm not gonna lie to you. What a huge pet peeve is, like, the whole "we don't have the pipeline, we don't see [them]." Like, so much of that is, like... if you just open your eyes, like, in today's era, right? So some of it is perception, how you present yourself, and there's a certain level of accountability that we have to take in terms of how we show up. At the same time--and I don't want to speak to insurance, 'cause that is a space that I'm not wholly familiar with, but I will speak to, like, technology, right? So okay, like, Facebook and other, like, larger technology firms will say, "Well, we have this diversity problem because we don't really have the pipeline," but the reality is there are tons of pockets of people, like Black Girls Who Code, Black Code Collective. There's all types of, like, groups out there and pockets, and there's black folks at these PWIs and HBCUs. There's organizations out there that do have the talent. I think the challenge is that what I'm not seeing, like, across the board is, like, a truly, like, intersectional and inclusive talent sourcing strategy when it comes to actually identifying that talent and then making sure that those folks are actually represented in terms of what does it look like for you to go out to those schools or engage these different groups or partner with these various organizations. Like, if you look in the same places for this diverse talent, then yeah, you may not find it, but if you actually just kind of broaden your scope a bit you may actually find the folks you're looking for, you know?Deidre: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I truly believe it, and that's one of the things I help, you know, my clients with is figure out where do you find this diverse talent. And diversity means so many different things to so many different people, and I know all industries are different, but I will say for us it's typically--they go to the same colleges because they typically want someone with a risk management degree. Risk management degrees are very--you know, they're not that often you find them. There's only a certain amount of schools, and those schools are not necessarily diverse. And mind you, the majority of people that come into our industry don't have interest in insurance or a risk management background. Like, I had sociology, right? But I did my job really well. So I'm like, knowing the statistics that the majority of people come in without this, I'm like, "Why would you narrow the focus?" So I think the first thing is find transferrable skills, companies, you know, and then people, be open to other industries besides your own that could be promising, because insurance is a couple trillion dollar industry. There's really a lot of interesting things going on right now. There's InsureTech, which is infusing technology with insurance. There's all these new risks out there, like with Bitcoin, and, you know, you have, you know, a shared economy and all kinds of fun stuff. So it's a lot of great things. So whether you're a company, find people with transferrable skills. Go to professional organizations, whether it is, like, you know, Ascent, Prospanica, National Black [?], and find people with the skill sets who obviously are leaders in their space but might not be leaders in your space. Also, look and see where else people are at, because--I don't know, maybe technology is a better judge [?] of this, but I'm like, "Are companies really leveraging social media and new forms of communication to find people?" A lot of times no, so that's what you gotta do.Zach: No, straight up. In fact, let me just go ahead and [straight up sfx, both laugh]. Yeah, I agree. Straight up. Man, that's a wonderful soundbite. So you talk a lot about inclusion and diversity within the context of leadership, and these are my questions, right? Can you 1. explain why I&D is important to you and then practical ways you reinforce and you would encourage other leaders to reinforce inclusive behaviors?Deidre: Yes. Why does it matter to me? Straight up I will just say it's because [both laughing] I was working in the industry, and my [?] a generation, so I quote-unquote belong here. We're very--I would say the industry typically is a lot of second-generation or multi-generation people in the industry, but I didn't actually feel like I belonged because, like I said, I didn't really see many people who looked like me. So just having that self-awareness, I'm like--and I was complaining, and someone was like, "Deidre, stop complaining." Like, "Do something." I got really involved in diversity and inclusion work, whether it was from volunteering or being part of organizations. So that was kind of--I had skin in the game, and I had to be the change I wanted to see, and I spoke at a lot of events about that. That's actually how I got my job, because I was on stage speaking at this event for my current company, and the CEO saw me and was like, "Deidre, I like your ideas," and that's why I promote people. If you have great ideas and solutions, go and speak and do that so you can find the right opportunities to be poached for those opportunities. But what are practical and tactical ways to be more inclusive? I would say diversify your network to the point you said of poaching talent or finding talent, but also who you mentor and who mentors you. So think about this. Yes, it is really important to have a person of color as your mentor in this space, but also it's good to have people who don't look like you. I try to, as much as possible, find mentors or colleagues who have different backgrounds, whether it's from they were in the military or they're male or they're white or whatever, but just different people. They give me perspective on things, and I find that very, very helpful, and also feedback on what they're receiving from me and my brand. Also I would say as a leader, if you're a manager or just anybody on a team, learn people's learning styles and how they communicate and bring out the best in them, because not everyone's extroverted, so they're not always gonna communicate how they feel, but maybe they're better in smaller groups or maybe they're great with projects and running with things, but don't assume that your way of communicating and doing things are the best. But I would just ask people, like, "Hey, what's the best to bring out your best so that we can get your A game at the office and that we can make sure you're satisfied?" And then lastly is speak up and speak out. If you're in a place of privilege in any aspect, I would address things, whether at a meeting and a woman's trying to talk and you're a man and someone's interrupting her--call that out, you know? Like, "Hey," you know, "I think Sheena wants to talk," or if you're a person in corporate--like, for me it's like, "Hey, I've been getting a lot of opportunities. How do I make sure I teach other women of color, people who are underrepresented, how to get speaking engagements so that they can have--I can see more diversity on this stage when I'm at events and not be the only one?" So I would just say speak out, diversify your network, and learn people's learning styles.Zach: I love that. And you're absolutely right, like, in terms of diversifying your network. So what I've learned--what I've been learning in my career is to have--as a black man--to have some white men in my network, right? And, like, I love it because--so I'm not trying to brag on myself. I'm just saying I really do like, enjoy, building authentic relationships, and I'm not gonna put--I'm not gonna make the block too hot for my friend so I'm not gonna drop his name, but I have a very good friend. He's a dear friend of mine, and we met at work. White guy, and, you know, a fairly conservative background, and I would just say, like, across the board, like, fairly conservative white man, and at the same time he and I met because he saw that I was being treated inequitably on a project, and he advocated for me, and that's how we became friends, and we've been friends for years now through that. But what's interesting is as I kind of talk to him about challenges I'm having or, like, "Man, I don't know how I would handle this," and I'm thinking about, like, all of these fairly, like, referential ways to do something or just, I don't know, kind of--like I'm choosing certain binaries because of--I don't want to say classically conditioned, but the way that I've been raised, I just think "Well, this is the way to do things." He's coming at it from, like, a different perspective. He's coming at it from a perspective of a privileged white man. So he's like, "Well, Zach, you don't have to do that. Just do this," and it's like, "Oh, my gosh. I would never even think to try that," right? And so it's, like, opening your eyes a bit. Something else you said now. I know you talked about, like, in meetings, right, when you said, like, if there's a woman talking, you as a man saying, "Hey, you know, I think she has something to say." Like, "Please, if you could give it a listen." I would also challenge that, if you're a white woman in those positions and you have, like, a black man or a [?] of color, use that privilege too, Cassandra. Becky. Charlotte. You know, just help us out, please, because we need it as well. I think there's some intersectionality that should be considered--Karen. There's another name. I was just trying to think of some other names. Anyway, so as we continue forward, right, and we talk a little bit about, like, relationships and networking, can we talk about, like, coalition building? You kind of alluded to it already, but its role in developing a leadership profile. So you talked about building this network, but, like, what does it look like for you historically to build mutually beneficial relationships? And do you have any examples of when those relationships have come into play to benefit you?Deidre: Yeah, that's a great question. I would say I always wanted to make things mutually beneficial. I just come from a standpoint--I don't like moochers, and I don't want to be a moocher. I just--I just think that it's kind of tacky, honestly.Zach: It is tacky.Deidre: It just turns me off, and it's bad for my brain to be like, "She's always asking for something but not returning it." So I've always kind of been that way. I will say my trick is--and it's not even a trick, it's really just what I do--I always end a conversation, meeting or whatever, asking people how can I be of service to them, because 1. it helps me know, like, how I can actually help them, and 2. it makes me think of who in my network can also help them. So I've connected a lot of people for business opportunities, job opportunities, just personal opportunities through having this network. "Oh, you want A? I know someone over there who can connect you with that," or "You want this," and so I would just say ask the question. It doesn't cost you a thing, but you might make an impact in how--it's always come back to help me. Like, I've never had a situation where it hasn't. 1. Either I made a new friend or had goodwill or 2. people reached out to me--like, I get a lot of referrals for business, whether it's for my job or for speaking opportunities or just leadership opportunities. I got an award for I guess being myself and being helpful to people and always leveling them up. I find that I'm stronger when I have a stronger circle around me, so I'm always trying to find who those people are, so I build it by--[coin sfx, Deidre laughs]--by, you know, being out there and publicly speaking. A lot of people I meet through Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, you know, just the interwebs, because I put myself out there or I comment on what they're saying because it's compelling to me. And so there's different ways to have mutually beneficial relationships. I just think 1. you gotta be open to them, 2. you actually gotta follow up and do what you say you're gonna do, but when it comes to--like, I come from an abundance mindset. I don't ever think that it can't be more than one leader. It can't be more than one of us. So I think we all have to get out of the mindset of that "I can't help somebody else because I lose something." [and i oop sfx] You only have something to gain by helping somebody else out.Zach: Come on, now. I 100% agree. And you know what? And that's another point--you're absolutely right, like, about following up. Look, [both laugh] people send--Deidre: You know.Zach: I do know. Listen, look, I look at my little emails, and thank God--you know what? This is not an ad. Shout-out to y'all, Gmail, 'cause y'all do the whole thing. "You received this three days ago. Follow up?" That has helped me so much. I be in that inbox--I'm in that inbox like [bratbratbrat sfx]. I'm like--[both laugh].Deidre: Yeah, you're in there.Zach: I be following up. Like, "Hey, we had this conversation. I just wanted to circle back and make sure we're good." Deidre, you did that with me!Deidre: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: You gotta. Hey, you gotta do it. Life is crazy. Life is just so busy. It's important. Okay, so let's pivot a little bit. In your article "Why Strategic Companies Must Manage Diversity & Inclusion As A Business Risk"--it was recently published in Savoy Magazine--can we talk a little bit about the piece and what inspired that?Deidre: Yeah. So, you know, risk management is my background. It's always on my brain, whether it's from personal risk management to, like, company, and I say that because people think of risk always as a bad thing, but risk is--you know, based on the [?]--it talks about, you know, the possibility of a loss, no gain, or a gain. So you can have different levels of risk, and so with diversity and inclusion, it can--if you do it right, it can help you gain [?]. If you do it wrong, it can be harmful. And let's be clear, we see all of these things in the news, all of these headlines, and people are failing with diversity and inclusion, and I just want to help educate the consumer and companies and people about why this has to be a strategic risk and opportunity. So let's look at, you know, the news. So Papa John's, he's going over here saying the N word, you know, during conference calls, had to step down as a leader, and from that incident, you know, within a month their store sales fell 10%. You know, Dolce and Gabbana, they had a situation where they had a model, you know, who was Asian looking like she was eating, like, pizza with chopsticks, and, like, it was inappropriate, and then calling, like--and then what happened was they had to cancel a fashion show. Consumers were, like, destroying their products, and then their products were removed from different platforms in China. Like, Chinese magazines, Alibaba, whatever, and then another case is, you know, the Conrad Miami, a hotel out there, they discriminated--a manager discriminated against a woman. She asked to have Sundays off when she started the job because of her religious reasons. They ended up having to pay her punitive damages of $21 million, you know, and others for lost wages because she was fired as a retaliation for wanting to go to church, and she asked for tha ttime off. And so I say this because when it goes wrong, it costs companies money.Zach: You're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, Angry Orchard. So they just recently had a situation where they interrupted this couple trying to get married. This man was trying to propose to his girlfriend. They accused them of stealing merchandise and eventually kicked them out of there. So no, I'm 100% with you. So of course that then draws boycotts and all types of negative press [?]. Now, look, I don't personally drink Angry Orchard. This also is not an ad, but, you know--Deidre: That's some Angry Orchard right there. [laughs]Zach: [?]. People angry at the Orchard, okay? For the wrong and right reasons, mm-hmm. Okay, please continue though.Deidre: No, but that's where I'm coming from. Obviously I know--so when I say I'm hosting and organizing a diversity and inclusion conference, we are concentrating as a risk management community, talking about how we can help the risk management community get a hold on this from a strategic standpoint of either making insurance companies money or saving them through talent acquisition and getting the right talent, because we know if you lose employees you lose a certain amount of money trying to rehire people. We know what these--so think about this. When these companies have lawsuits, how are they getting paid? Typically through insurance. When it's a lawsuit and a claim. Unless it's--Zach: That's right.Deidre: Yeah, so it's really important to my industry strategically, from whether it's their internal practices or what they're paying out, especially if they're million-dollar claims or lawsuits, what's going on. So it's a strategic risk to think about how do we leverage it to grow our revenue and our brands, and also how do we minimize issues so that we're not losing money or losing top talent?Zach: I love it. I think that, you know, it's just interesting because--and I keep saying it's interesting, right? So you know--you know, Deidre, how when you talk to people you have certain things that you say as your pivot word? "It's interesting" is, like, my pivot word slash phrase, but I'm going to work on that. I'm gonna work on that after this interview, because I won't stop right now, but--Deidre: Can't stop, won't stop.Zach: Well, I will stop eventually.Deidre: [laughs] Not today, but you will tomorrow.Zach: Not today. It's about being introspective in the moment. I think that, you know, live introspection can help you actually move forward as opposed to--'cause you may not think about it again, so I'm calling it out right now in the middle of this interview awkwardly. So as I get older and I just pay attention, you know--and I'm bringing this up based off what you just talked about with the business imperative and the strategic imperative of inclusion and diversity--I realize though how much of the world I navigate is catered to white experiences, expectations, and comfort, and that doesn't really--that's not exclusive to--it's inclusive of corporate America as well, and when I think about the work that you're doing, in some way or another simply even bringing up otherness pushes up against some of those levels of comfort. So how do you navigate the fragility that comes with discussing non-whiteness in majority-white spaces?Deidre: You know... maybe that's my pivot word, "you know." [Zach laughs] I've been trained for this job and position--all my life I've been trained for this, because growing up, you know, from kindergarten to half of college I was in majority-white spaces. Like, my elementary school K through 8, my sister and I and maybe three other kids were black. Like, it was just mostly white. So I guess to me--the thing about this is with any idea or concept you're selling people on, you've gotta tell 'em what's in it for them, and I think that's a clear thing. And also don't make people feel ashamed for learning and uncovering bad habits. Like, for ex--and I don't know, think about this. If somebody, you know, for example, like you said, if you're saying a trigger word to pivot things, right? "Oh, you know, Zach, like, every time you transition you keep on saying "interesting." That's horrible." You're gonna be like, "Dang, that hurt me," right? It's just the same thing as saying, "Hey, you know, you always interrupt women." Like, "Why are you doing that?" That would not be my tactic when it, you know, comes to whether it's women issues, people of color, or whatever. So I always try to think of, you know, how to come out of a situation, whether it's for a person or a company or whatever, of how to tell them what's in it for them. So for example, "Hey, Acme Company, you're doing great when it comes to business practices, when it comes to just, like, in general." Like, "You're making money. Have you thought about the strategic risk of not having diverse talent and not really investing that?" "Oh, we have diverse talent." "Yeah, yeah, but do you understand the demographics are changing?" And companies are having either corporate social responsibility plans or diversity and inclusion initiatives that require or ask for diversity and what you're strategically doing. "Let me help you with that. Let me help you formulate a plan, 'cause I want you to succeed," or "Hey, I want you to be a good leader. Do you know about, you know, people are being evaluated now on how they are inclusive leaders? I have tools and resources if you want my help," and then they gotta ask for the help or say, "Yes, I want the help," you know? But at least make people aware of things in a way that you're helping them and less from a point of accusation or you're doing something wrong, because we all make mistakes, but until we're made aware of in a way that's safe and safe to admit--I have people tell me, "Deidre, like, you know, you put these things out there with diversity and inclusion that makes me rethink things, and you say it in a safe way so I don't feel threatened," and I'm like, "Thank you for saying that, because that is very uncomfortable, to say that you feel uncomfortable and threatened by things because you don't know what you're doing, so I'm happy to help you." Now, everyone doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be the burden of a minority to educate the majority on their pain or frustration. That is a lot of--it's just a lot of work, but I'm choosing this work, so I'm using my power and my platform to do that. So it's a choice involved, but you've gotta either step up and be open to changing and pivoting your messaging to make real impact.Zach: I love that, and you're absolutely right that it is a choice, and there are different methods to do that. I do love the fact that you said, you know, black and brown folks and just non-white cisgendered folks, non-white male cisgendered folks, we're not obligated to carry the burden of educating people, so I'ma just go ahead and give you this right here. [applause sfx] Just so people--'cause, you know, there's also this narrative of like, "Well, how can they know if you don't teach 'em?" Like, 'cause they got Google. Like, people learn how to code.Deidre: That is what I--I'm like, "You can Google or YouTube anything."Zach: [laughing] You can Google so much.Deidre: Now, Zach, the thing about--I won't deal with ignorance to the point where people, like, trolls and stuff like that, like, I don't have time for Trolls. I'm not a troll collector. I don't really like those dolls or people, so I don't play with them. I don't play with Trolls. Okay, but people who are really open to learning, yeah.Zach: Right, that's the qualifier. They gotta be open to learning, but I like the fact that from the jump you said, you know, you've been--basically you've been molded for this, you know what I'm saying? Like, you've been, you know what I'm saying, like--[to this day sfx]--right? Like, you're doing it, right? [both laugh]Deidre: And I don't know about your background. For me, I also--that's why I strategically chose to go to Spelman College. I went to Atlanta. I visited out there for homecoming. My cousin went to Clark and I was like, "This is poppin'." I transferred in the middle of my college experience. And so I--1. I wanted the experience, but I've never been a majority in an all mostly black woman environment, and it was kind of a reality shock. So I also say on the flip side, if you've always been other, you might want to try to be in the majority because it really is a way to reframe your identity, because on one side, yeah, it's a lot of issues and stress being other and always trying to, like, reinforce what you're doing, but sometimes it's also a platform to make you stick out and people look up to you and whatever versus you blend in. I mean, no one realized I was new for a while. I had to tell people, "Hey, I'm a new girl. I don't know where I'm going," because I was camouflaged. And so I say that because, you know, there's no real perfect spectrum on this and what you can do, so I would just say use your platform no matter what you're doing to help things out. And I also say this because I had a mentor, and she was like, "Deidre--" I was young, this was my first job. She said, "You are a young, attractive black woman in this space, and no one looks like you. You're gonna get people's attention no matter what. Make sure when you do it's for a reason." So minorities people, you stand out, you know, whatever it is that you--if you stand out in your space, actually leverage that as a tool to stand out for a reason and get your agenda across or, you know, use your thought leadership, because, I mean, it is a gift and a curse, so why not use it to your benefit?Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And, you know, for me, 'cause I typically do stand out, right? So I'm a black man--I'm, like, 6'1". I'm a pretty big dude, right? I'm, like, 270, 280. Like, I'm a big guy, right? And so, you know, I know that I'm gonna stick out, and then plus I have this weird, like, Southern/Connecticut accent because my mother was an English teacher, but I'm also very country at the same time, and so I have--it's a unique profile, so when I show up I'm just--look, I'm trying to--I'm trying to make a show, right? And not, like, in a Bojangles kind of way, but I mean make an impact, you know what I mean? I show up like--I show up, I'm like [what it do baby sfx]. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm out here, okay? And, like, you know, I'll bring you in with the jokes and stuff, but then if you're actually trying to challenge me, like, I actually have some--you know, I have some intellectual rigor behind what I'm saying, right? I might hit you with some multi-syllabic words, you know? Whatever. So I hear you is my point. Okay, this has been a great conversation. Any parting words or shout-outs before we let you go?Deidre: Yeah, shout-out to myself. I'm Deidre Wright. I'm here--Zach: Ayo, she said shout-out to myself. Oh, my gosh. Yo, wait a second. [air horns sfx, both laughing]Deidre: Because if there's nothing else you learn this session, it's that you gotta advocate for yourself. You've gotta be your best cheerleader. Man, shout yourself out. There's a way to do it, but do it, 'cause if we don't do it, who will? And I say this because there are so many people I meet, young people, and they're like, "I would never think you work in insurance. You don't look like that," and I give them a different alternative reality and role model. So by advocating for yourself--I tell people it's selfish not to share your expertise. It's selfish not to say who you are and what you're doing, because you could be motivating so many different people by just sharing and promoting yourself and inspiring generations. [chaching sfx] So advocate for yourself, you know? Find me at DeidreWright.com. Also I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram. So at Instagram I'm @DeidreWrite, like I'm writing, you know, my life story, and just holler at me if I can help you with either personal branding, diversity and inclusion, and uplifting our people of all kinds to advance and promote diversity and inclusion.Zach: My goodness, gracious. You know, over 100 episodes we have never had a guest say, "Shout-out to me, yo." Not "shout-out to my mom," not "shout-out to my people." "Shout-out to me." I love it. No, no, 100%, and Deidre, we'll make sure we have all of your links and stuff in the show notes, so no pressure there. Okay. Well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. You know where we're at. Look, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. It's a slight flex, but it's a true flex, okay? You Google--if you go to Google--shout-out to Google, 'cause this is not an ad--Google, Yahoo, Bing... what's another search engine, Deidre?Deidre: AskJeeves I guess is no longer here.Zach: AskJeeves? Yo. [both laugh]Deidre: Ask him. [both laugh]Zach: What you gonna say next, BlackPlanet? Xanga? AskJeeves? [both laugh]Deidre: MySpace. I mean, I still can't get into my old MySpace page. Forgot my passwords, but you can probably find me there too.Zach: My MySpace was fire back in the day. Anyway, the point is we're out here, okay? And we're really enjoying the fact that y'all are listening to this podcast, so shout-out to y'all. If you want to subscribe to the newsletter, again, just Google Living Corporate, you click the link, and there's a subscribe button right there, right when you click on the website, okay? We have new content. Of course we got this dope content right here. We got new blogs. Make sure you just check us out, okay? This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Deidre Wright right now - right on time - she's just right.Deidre: You know that's right.Zach: You know it's right. Not white, right?Deidre: But Deidre's right.Zach: Deidre's right. [both laugh] Deidre: Thanks, Zach, man. I appreciate it, and let me know if I can ever be of service to you.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon. Peace.

In our first See It to Be It podcast interview, Amy C. Waninger chats with La'Wana Harris, a global diversity and inclusion consultant, author and coach who has dedicated her career to aligning performance with business strategy. These discussions highlight professional role models in a variety of industries, and our goal is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Check out some of the SI2BI blogs we've posted while you wait for the next episode!Find out more about La'Wana's book, Diversity Beyond Lip Service, on Amazon!Learn more about the organizations she mentioned, WOCIP and HBA!Connect with her on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and I'm really excited to talk to y'all about something really important today. You know we try to mix it from time to time. We have our full episodes and we have B-Sides. You know, we'll have guest hosts. We do different things. We do listener letters, you know what I'm saying? We have something else special for y'all today, and what it's called is the See It To Be It series, okay? This is an interview series highlighting professional role models in a variety of industries. The goal of this series is to draw attention to the vast array of possibilities available to emerging and aspiring professionals, with particular attention paid to support black and brown professionals. Many of y'all should remember Amy C. Waninger. She is the author of Networking Beyond Bias, and she was a guest on the Living Corporate podcast in Season 1 to talk about effective allyship. Well, Amy has continued on with Living Corporate as a writer, and she's also blessed us with a partnership in getting a special series out. So what you're gonna hear is Amy talking to a variety of black and brown professionals, as I said at the top, from a variety of industries, and it's gonna be really cool because it's really gonna zoom in from a technical perspective on what they do while at the same time hopefully inspiring folks who may not see themselves in an industry to actually see themselves, hence the title "See It To Be It," you know what I'm saying? All right, so with that being said, I'm gonna go ahead and dip. The next thing you're gonna hear is an interview with Amy C. Waninger and an amazing minority professional. Catch y'all next time. Peace.Amy: Hi, La'Wana. Thank you for joining me.La'Wana: Hi. Thank you for having me.Amy: Sure thing. I'm really excited to talk to you today about your experience in the pharmaceutical industry. Can you tell me a little bit about what you do and how you got started there?La'Wana: Sure. I actually just finished my career in the pharmaceutical industry, and I'm taking some time to explore launching a book as well as doing some consulting. So after about two decades, I'm looking forward to a new chapter. While in the industry, I started in sales and then had a chance to work through some training, leadership development, government affairs, market access, a number of different areas, trying to get a 360 degree view of the business. And I was very fortunate to have all of those different experiences with just two companies, Johnson and Johnson and Sanofi, a French-owned pharmaceutical company.Amy: Oh, that's fantastic. And so what attracted you to the pharmaceutical industry in the first place?La'Wana: A number of things. Well, my degree's in biology, and so I've always just been fascinated by science and in particular life sciences, and I also had an opportunity to not only use my passion for science but then also integrate that with my interest in business. So I had an opportunity to both live out my passion but then also pursue my professional interest around business, and the two integrated well within the pharmaceutical industry.Amy: That's great, and I love that you said that you took all of these different roles and got, you know, a 360 degree view of your industry. I think that's--it's exciting to me when somebody does that, whatever industry they're in, to see it from all different angles and really understand it inside and out. What was something you learned about the pharmaceutical industry that surprised you?La'Wana: Well, a number of things. I would say around--if I looked at specifically around things that were surprising, it was around the impact that we're able to have on a person's life and the far-reaching impact around the world, because, in particular with the last company that I worked with, there was a number of therapies for rare diseases, and looking at how you literally change a person's life with the therapies that you have, and it was surprising to me, not that the therapies could help, but just that the amount and just the gravity of the impact that we're having on a day-to-day basis. And then personally, for me, I went through a tragic event where my daughter suffered a stroke at the age of 17.Amy: Oh, no.La'Wana: Yes. And at the time, the therapy that she was given--and she's fine now, but the therapy that she was given was a product from my company, and so, you know, it's not just we hear about patient stories and testimonials and all of the wonderful things that happen. I lived it, and, you know, I don't think you can have any greater impact than that.Amy: Yeah. Being a part of the process of saving your own child's life or quality of life is a pretty amazing experience that not many of us get. That's phenomenal, and, you know, it's a good reminder that everybody is somebody's baby, right? La'Wana: Absolutely.Amy: That's great. So if somebody's not in the pharmaceutical industry and they're looking for more information on maybe where they could start or what skills might transfer, where do you recommend they start their research?La'Wana: Yes. Well, there's a number of places if someone is looking to--and it depends on where they want to enter the industry. So if they're looking in sales, there are a number of certifications now that are available where they can get some formal training as well as obviously using what I call Uncle Google, which will give you tons of tips and those kinds of things, and if they're looking to enter at different professional levels such as medical and those other pieces, then obviously they would work through some of the associations and societies respective to their field or discipline.Amy: Okay. And for--since the audience for the article series is primarily young people of color, are there resources or organizations or affinity groups within those associations to help people of color feel a little less alone in what I would imagine is a pretty white male-dominated industry. La'Wana: Yes, and your imagination is pretty spot-on. [laughs] So it's a lot less imagination than reality, you know? But there are a number of really genuine, like-minded people that are working to change that, and that is a part of what I will spend my time doing until I decide to retire completely is working with people of color and helping them navigate their careers and path to success. In particular to pharma, one I would highly recommend for women is Women of Color in Pharma, and Women of Color in Pharma is a new association, relatively new association, that is specifically working with women of color and helping them bridge the gap and providing them and supporting them throughout their career. So that would be one, and then also we have the Healthcare Businesswomen's Association. Again, both of those are for women, however men are of course encouraged to support as allies and stand and support with the women because, you know, we can't do it alone. We all have to work together. And then if they're looking specifically for, say, career or some skill-based training, there are a number of associations there. Individual consultants as well. If you look at some of the pharmaceutical companies themselves, they have a number of resources on their company websites that they can go in and first-hand learn more about what the organizations are doing. And then the last one would be the ERGs. Some of the progressive ERGs are actually reaching out and putting out very good messaging to help give some clues for people of color and those who may not be or may be underrepresented within their respective companies.Amy: Okay. And ERGs, by that you mean employee resource groups, and those are typically affinity groups or affinity or ally groups within companies.La'Wana: Absolutely. The affinity groups, not only employee resource groups but also business resource groups as well.Amy: Okay. And so I want to take a step back for just a moment and think about--there's so much in the news lately about the lack of medical research and the lack of case studies and really in-depth understanding of how certain diseases may manifest differently in different populations, how the symptoms might look different. One of the ones that I saw most recently was how anxiety disorders manifest among women of color and black women in particular and that those symptoms don't always look like the symptoms that doctors are told to look for in people who are suffering from anxiety. You know, women with heart disease is another one where women have different symptoms of heart disease than men, and so it stands to reason to me to me that it's not only a benefit to people of color to get involved in this industry for their own careers and their own growth because there's a lot of opportunity there, but there's also a tremendous amount of opportunity for pharmaceutical companies to get more perspectives on what they should be researching, how they should be researching, and who should be included in those conversations. Can you speak a little bit about that from your own experience? La'Wana: Sure. I will tell you though I have to take a step back before we even get to the point of treatment, because pharmaceutical organizations as well as the health care industry in general first needs to build trust, because, as you know, without going into detail, there are a number of real situations where there's reason to distrust the health care industry, whether it be pharmaceutical or otherwise, and without going into all of that history, the first piece is once we are--the industry is able to build trust with populations of color and people of color, then they'll have those folks willing to participate in clinical trials, because it starts there. These therapies are based on trials, and so there are a number of organizations and people who are working towards increasing the representation of people of color in clinical trials, but then also making sure that those therapies, as we move more and more towards therapies that are customized to individuals, then we'll have the representation to see those advanced therapies really have the impact across all of the different people demographics. And to your point about understanding, absolutely. If you have people around the table from all different people groups, then when therapies are introduced or when you find that there opportunities for business development, even looking at which therapies you may pursue, what your pipeline looks like, all of those various pieces, when you have well-represented diversity around the table, then you're better able to meet those needs, and what we're finding now--even though of course we're talking about the actual treatment of patients, when you look at the development of business, you're seeing more and more large pharmaceutical companies going into emerging markets. Now, how do you go into an emerging market if no one around the table has been there? So yes, not only is it needed for the actual therapies themselves, it's needed for business and sustainability.Amy: Absolutely. And I would imagine the ERGs and BRGs play a large role in that, in helping companies identify those companies and tailor maybe their messaging or their approach to those opportunities as well.La'Wana: Well, yes and. [both laugh] I say yes and because they CAN. Now, whether or not they're actually being utilized that way, that depends on the organization because every organization is in a different place on their respective diversity and inclusion journey. So you'll have some organizations that are more savvy, more sophisticated, they actually have the business working hand-in-hand with the ERGs or BRGs, and they're utilizing them in that manner. Then you have others where the ERGs and even some BRGs are more about social activity and awareness. Now, both are needed, it's just that one is on the early end of the spectrum when you look at diversity and inclusion maturity and the other is further along and more sophisticated. So yes is the answer that it should be that way, and that is one of the ideal ways of really leveraging that population, but it's not happening in all cases.Amy: No, that's understandable, and I think that's true across all industries where, you know, companies are maybe, you know, not as far along on the path as they ought to be or would like to be. I hate to use ought to be or should language, but I certainly think that they should be there, right? [laughs] We should have been working on this from the beginning. This shouldn't be something that "Oh, well, you know, it's--we're almost in 2020, and now we're gonna start including people from our communities in our decision-making." It's crazy that it's taken this long, but--[laughs]La'Wana: It's mind-boggling.Amy: It is.La'Wana: You know? And I mentioned the book earlier, and I'll go ahead and just note that here, is that that's why I wrote the book. The book is Diversity Beyond Lip Service: A Coaching Guide for Challenging Bias, and that, what you just said, is one of the pieces that's at the heart of the book. It's time to move beyond lip service. We've been talking about diversity and inclusion for decades, and the reality is, and the data bears out, the fact that the things that we saw the barriers, they're not true barriers. There's more than enough women to have positions in leadership and be on boards. There's more than enough people of color who are qualified applicants and able to do a stellar job and performance. That's not the real issue. So to your point, yes, we've been talking about it, and we've actually had some action towards moving the needle, it's just that we're not seeing the results that we should at this point, and it's time to put the accountability measures in place the same as we would for any other business metric that's underperforming.Amy: Absolutely. Thank you for that. Now, when does your book come out? La'Wana: May. It'll be out May 28th officially, but there will be some copies, you know, available in April. So we're right there. Amy: Oh, that's wonderful. Congratulations on that. That's a huge accomplishment.La'Wana: Well, thank you. I hope it helps. [laughs]Amy: [laughs] I hope so too. I cannot wait to get my hands on the book. There are actions at the company level that need to happen and then there are actions at the individual level that need to happen, you know, in every conversation, in every room, in every meeting, and, you know, we need all hands on deck. I say at the end of my own book that, you know, look, we've got big organizations with lots of problems to solve. We can't have anybody sitting on the sidelines, and we certainly can't afford to put anyone there.La'Wana: Absolutely, and that includes white men. Amy: That absolutely does, and we need them to jump right in and, you know, grab hands with the rest of us. You know, I always liken it to a Red Rover game. Did you play Red Rover when you were a kid?La'Wana: Oh, absolutely.Amy: Yeah, and everybody joins hands--La'Wana: [?] Red Rover right over, yeah. [laughs]Amy: Yeah. You try to keep, like, the one person from breaking through, and my thing is no, everybody joins hands and runs for it, you know? We'll all get there together, and that's how it should be.La'Wana: Absolutely.Amy: Fantastic. So tell me a little bit about the consulting work that you're doing or that you plan to be doing and what's that look like. Who are your clients and how will you help them?La'Wana: Sure, absolutely. The good news is I have a clean slate. My last official day in the pharmaceutical industry was 12/31 of 2018, so I am only two months out. So I'm still answering some of those questions, but I'll tell you what my model is. What I've done thus far is to of course write the book, and I've built some companion or collateral pieces to support the book, because my vision is not just to have a book that's a good read. We have some more rich dialogue, and it's another day in the world of diversity and inclusion. My plan is to work on the how, so I have developed what I call inclusion coaching, and it focuses on diversity and inclusion from the inside out, because I feel thus far we've only focused--the majority of D&I work has focused on the outside in. We tell people what to think, what to say, how to behave, all of those things where we're giving it to them from the outside in. My approach is that we start with where a person is and for them to go deep internally to realize what are your biases, what are your preferences, how are you wired, and quite honestly, just where are you with D&I? And let's start from that place of truth and, honestly, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Not just "Oh, I believe in D&I." Okay, but then we look at some of the actions around resource allocation, hiring practices, firing practices, development and promotion, we don't see the actions line up with the words, and I believe that's because there's incongruence internally. So that's where I'm focusing. So my plan is to have the book, have the collateral pieces, and then teach people how to do this--because I'm also a professional coach--and put it in the hands of leaders, whether they be community champions, social activists or business leaders, put it in their hands and say, "Here's the method. Keep it very simple. Now, go use it. Go for it," and to put some simple language around how to do it. So my plan is to focus on everyday inclusion where folks know how to be inclusive, not just be told to be inclusive and that they have bias, because we've talked about the business case, we have developed ERGs, we have unconscious bias training. You hear about it every other day, and when something happens, the first thing we hear is "Oh, we need to have some unconscious bias training." No, we need to have some conscious bias training. Let's talk about what's really happening and the conscious choices that we make every day. So anyway, that is the plan, and I want to hand that off to all that are, you know, feel that it can help and then see that hopefully translate into some patterns of everyday behavior that's simple enough to de-mystify what we mean when we say we should all live inclusively.Amy: Oh, La'Wana, I wish you every success. I hope that your programs and your message take hold and take root and really transform people from the inside out, because we need this so badly, and it's--I hope you work us all right out of jobs, because--La'Wana: That is my goal. [both laugh]Amy: That would be wonderful, and then we could focus on doing other work. But oh, my gosh, yes, absolutely. I agree 100%, and I wish you every success. Could I get you to finish two sentences for me?La'Wana: Sure.Amy: The first is "I feel included when ______."La'Wana: I feel included when I'm able to be myself.Amy: And the second is "When I feel included, I ______."La'Wana: When I feel included, I--I'm at peace.Amy: Oh, thank you for sharing that.La'Wana: Yeah.Amy: It is so important that we all find ways to help other people be at peace in their own skin with us in the room. I think that's so important. Thank you, La'Wana. I appreciate this very much, and I look forward to so much more from you.La'Wana: Absolutely. Thank you.

If you’re a bourbon die hard, you’ve probably asked yourself this question, “Do bourbon brands care about me?”. You know what I’m talking about because you join in on the conversation when distilleries increase prices or you get angry because your barrel picking group has been snubbed out for allocation reasons. The Bourbon Pursuit team takes a hard look at many of the larger whiskey producers by looking at some of their past actions. But if you’re the whiskey producer, what would you do in the same situation? Show Partners: Hotel Distil on historic Whiskey Row is set to open October 29th in Downtown Louisville. Book now to experience it for yourself at HotelDistil.com. The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/pursuespirits. Barrell Craft Spirits enjoys finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. They then bottle them at cask strength to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Distillery 291 is an award winning, small batch whiskey distillery located in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Learn more at Distillery291.com. Show Notes: Wilderness Trail Expansion: https://amnews.com/2019/10/03/wilderness-trail-distillery-expanding-planning-huge-announcement/ Toddy’s: https://www.liquor.com/articles/best-bourbon-store-toddys-liquors/#gs.7u244v Glenlivet Scotch Pods: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/05/world/glenlivet-scotch-whisky-capsule-glassless-trnd/index.html Scotch Tariffs: https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/business/us-tariffs-whisky-wine/index.html This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about line etiquette. What are your thoughts on the Heaven Hill Bottled-in-Bond relaunch? What do you think Heaven Hill did wrong in that situation? Are we moving away from a $15 price point? What about the Booker's price increase? Let's discuss Maker's attempt to lower the proof. What about Sazerac's strategy? What about Brown-Forman? What's happening with the allocation of barrel picks? Are people or groups getting cut off? 0:00 Hey everybody. If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is an online program that can be completed in as little as 15 weeks and will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry. It's offered by the ACS be accredited college of business, and this certificate was developed in partnership with industry experts to be one of a kind and it's going to prepare you for your next adventure. Learn more about this online program at U of l.me slash 0:35 pursue spirits All right, 0:37 let me see if I can't get everybody to just like Quiet on the set here. 0:41 All right, Quiet on the set. 0:56 Hey everybody, what is going on? It is Episode 220. of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny, and we've got a ton of news to run through. Let's not wait let's dive into it. Eagle rare bourbon is announcing the 10th annual Eagle rare life award. Now Eagle rare has partnered with garden and gun to seek nominations for the 10th annual Eagle rare life award. The award celebrates those who lead a rare life as defined by showing courage, leadership survival, devotion, character and heroism. Past recipients have included Brian Anderson representing USA cares in Jake Clark of save a warrior to nominate a remarkable individual for the annual Eagle where life award submit an application by November 3 2019. The finalists and their stories will be featured on garden and gun calm from November 15 to December 6, and they allows you to go and cast your votes. The winner of this award will be announced in early 2020. We talk all the time about how big players in the industry are always expanding but now we get to see one sort of on the mid size wilderness trail. Now you've heard from Pat heist and Shane Baker back on episodes 121 at 130. They are playing to add three new additional buildings to their site, including a 13,000 square foot addition. This is going to be an expansion of their bottling and administration buildings plus two new brick houses each totaling around 16,624 square feet. They will store 20,520 barrels each and they will be next in line for construction. The distilleries bottling operation is undergoing a $1.5 million dollar expansion right now with a new automated bottling line and warehouse space as they are going to be adding also more headcount in operations and administration. The distillery is currently wrapping up around a $6 million in capital projects for 2019 and as $8 million in projects underway for 2020. But now that you're doing close to 215 barrels of whiskey per day, you can read more about this in our show notes with the link to AM news.com. Back on episode 152. We featured Guthrie McKay of Tommy's liquors. Now this topic is polarizing to some folks. Today Guthrie charges more than secondary prices for his advocated bourbon and with this small shop that has a lot of listeners and shoppers going through, it puts them in a mixed and almost kind of gets you're frustrated and mad. But Guthrie has seen the highs and lows and he was a kind of a key and secret ingredient to helping the whiskey boom. And you can hear some of those stories that we were counted back on that episode 152 but you know Guthrie was also this week featured in a liquor.com article titled The best bourbon store on earth. And that might be a little bit of clickbait, but we've provided a few quotes to give context the story, and you can read that article with the link in our show notes as well. Jim beam's knob Creek is announcing a new limited edition bottling called quarter oak. The new release finishes knob Creek bourbon and quarter oak casks for four years. Now quarter casts are as the name suggests, one quarter the size of traditional 53 gallon barrels. And as we've seen this before, this means that there's an increase in the surface area with the charred oak relative the volume of whiskey inside. You can call it accelerated aging but it could just mean different types of taste profiles that are coming out of it. But when this finished product is going to be dumped from the Quarter Cask. It is then blended with knob Creek and bottled at 100 proof to create the knob Creek quarter oak, this is going to have a suggested retail price of $50. And with more release news heaven Hill is announcing that they are doing their first line extension of larceny, Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey larceny barrel proof released on an allocated basis three times per year. The first release of this weekend bourbon will ship in January of 2020. larceny barrel proof offers whiskey fans the opportunity to taste larceny just as heaven hills master distiller does Connor straight from the barrel. Each release will have varying proofs and consists of barrels aged of six to eight years old with releases in January may in September. This is also going to have the same naming convention that we've seen with Elijah Craig barrel proof. So the first release will be a 120 a representing the first batch of the year one representing the month with this January and 20 representing the year 2020. Each release will be bottled at barrel proof non chill filtered and available at a suggested retail price of 4999. we first saw it with black and which is metallic is new whiskey, followed by collaboration Slipknot with an Iowa whiskey company and now few spirits and Warner Music artists services are announcing a new release called all secrets know which is a new limited edition bourbon distilled by few spirits master distiller Paul help go in collaboration with Grammy nominated and multi Platinum selling Seattle grunge pioneers. Allison chains now whose music has also stood the test of time and pollutes a generation as well as a lot of whiskey lovers out there two bottles will feature a custom design label by artists Justin Helton. For this release few bourbon is finished for six months in tequila barrels bottled at 101 proof and will have an MSRP or suggested retail price of $75. This game this is how bourbon pursuit we hardly ever really talked about scotch, but the Glenlivet has the internet up in arms because they have released something that was new. It was a video and the Internet has coined it scotch pots. They are clear seaweed wraps that are completely edible and have a cocktail in a clear capsule, Glenlivet partnered with a sustainable startup on this new idea, and it has everyone talking about it. Some folks thought it was April Fool's in October, but we'll see who has the last laugh on this one. If they catch on, they will be served during London celebration of college tail innovation through October 13. And you can read about that with more in our show notes. We've talked about terrorists on the podcast before and terrorists, the retaliation are coming back harder and harder. The US is now going to be imposing a 25% tariff on scotch whiskey being imported into the US. This is going to increase the price of scotch for Americans. The US is the largest market with over $1 billion of scotch whiskey being exported in 2018. Well, perhaps this might get more people drinking bourbon in the end, but who knows what the outfall of this could be. You can read more about it with the link in our show notes as well. Now speaking of what things that we have going on, our community took one for the team and selected a barrel at Traverse City which ended up being a seven year in GP, or incredibly fortunate that we get to bring these experiences to our Patreon community and happy that all these whiskey geeks get to be a part of them. We have a new barrel pic to announce which is in addition to our last one week that we announced which is our Eagle wearable are also adding in to 2019 k jack daniels barrel proof that will be taking place in December. This is going to bring our 2019 tally to 19 barrels selected. And we've already got our first barrel lineup for 2020 as well. Thanks once again to our retail partner, keg and bottle out of the San Diego area for making this all happen. You can go check out their website and get whiskey shipped straight to your door at keg the letter in bottle.com. today's podcast it's one for the diehards, you know who you are because you join in the conversation when distilleries are increasing their prices are you get angry because your barrel picking group got snubbed because of allocation reasons. Now the trio of bourbon pursuit we're here to talk about some of the actions that we've seen over the past year and contemplate. Do bourbon companies actually care about their consumers? Or is this just a part of a bigger game that we all have to play? We mentioned it towards the end of the show. But if 9:00 You're a producer and you're listening to us. Just know that we love you. And we do our best to play devil's advocate. But there's some things that we saw that we really feel like we should take the bourbon communities view and kind of really talk about it put out there in the open and see what happens. So hope you're going to enjoy this one. Alright, so let's get down to it. Here's Joe from barrell bourbon. And then you've got Fred Minnick. What's up the char? It's Joe from barrell bourbon. We enjoy finding and identifying barrels that contain distinctive traits and characteristics. We then bottle them a cash rank to retain their authentic qualities for the whiskey enthusiast. Keep up to date with our newsletter at barrell bourbon.com. 9:37 I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char, I reached out to my followers on Twitter for this idea, and bourbon West came up with a good one. He wanted to know how we could improve the etiquette of standing in lines for bourbon. And he's speaking in particular of the etiquette towards the distillery, the store owner, the proprietary, he's saying that he sees some disgusting behavior out there when it comes to standing in line for these were bottles. So thanks, bourbon west for this idea. And here's the thing, if we want bourbon so badly, that we're willing to camp out overnight stand in a long line, I bring my kids to these things. So I have to it's it's the only way I can get there because my wife will be out of town or she'll be running. And the only way I can go to a lot of these events is if I bring my kids and so right then and there. I'm kind of like an odd man out people look at me funny because I've got my kids. And I'm standing in line for bourbon. So they're like, there's there's your dad of the year. But you do see people like get very angry toward the store owner, if they are the last in line and they don't get a bottle. Or they're at the front and they can't get what they want. Or they see a bottle in the store and the store owner wants sell it to them. I've seen people yell, I've seen people throw tantrums. And then you see people on social media afterwards, just absolutely tearing apart a business for them not selling him a bottle. And is that right? Well, you know, it's free speech. And people have the they can do whatever they want. But when you're inside someone's property, and you are there as a customer, there are some things that you should do first, you should never really raise your voice to the store owner. That could be you know, considered threatening, and, you know, if somebody wanted to, they could kick you out, and you should be just a good decent human being. You got to remember this whole bourbon thing. It's, it's just a hobby. It isn't something it's not life and death. We're not curing cancer. We're trying to get a nice bottle of bourbon. So treat people with respect. And so there are three rules that I recommend that everyone carry when it goes into the stores. dress nice it This may sound very weird, but people do not act like assholes when they dress nice. Now what is nice now you know I wear an ascot I'm not saying you have to do that, for God's sake. I'm the only person left on the planet still wearing the damn things. But you know, maybe like a like a polo shirt and khakis and a pair of nice shoes. And you'll find that you don't want to be a dickhead when your dress pretty nicely. Number to say thank you. Even if you do not get the bottle you want the store manager, the store clerk anybody you interact with the distillery whoever, just say thanks. And number three, the people who you're around with start talking to them. Where are they from? Some of the best friends I've made in bourbon have been from standing in line at these places. You really do meet some cool people. They'll be from all over the state or country and sometimes even out of the country because it's their only opportunity to get a rare bottle. So just practice those three things. And it seems like little but hopefully it will diffuse someone else from being a dickhead when they're shopping bourbon. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea like bourbon West did hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred Minnick. That's at Fred Minnick. Until next week. Cheers. 13:15 welcome back to this episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, the whole trio here today. Wow, hoping we don't burn some bridges. Right? I mean, we're going to be bringing the heat putting some people under some fire. But also, I think speaking for the broader bourbon community that's out there, because we're going to be talking and the subject is, you know, do distilleries actually care about their customers? And this is we thought about this idea. Because, gosh, what was it probably six months ago, we had this this concept of like, everything The news was changing. There's people that are taking off products, there's allocations of barrels that are just getting axed across the board from Yeah, as Fred always said, people that took you to the dance. So today, we're going to, 13:57 you know, barrel programs not kind of going he usually just made it him. 14:02 And so that's exactly what today we're really gonna be focusing on is, is looking at and hopefully, you know, I think we're going to take some, put some fire, put some heat and do some people, we all got to play a little devils advocate, right? Kind of will, one of us one of us will kind of take the role of, well, if the distillers that if I'm the distiller here, like, what's my response? Male? Fuck 14:21 it, let's just, whatever, whatever I mean, it this is this is a conversation that we need to have. Yeah, they need to know, we need to have this conversation because they're, you know, I feel like sometimes distilleries live in a bubble. They live in a bubble of their bottom line, and, you know, help benefiting their shareholders. And the informations out there. It's not like they can't go to a social media forum and find the data find, find people conveying their feelings about what consumers want and what they need. You know, their two years ago, they'd spent $150,000, to get the kind of feedback that is free now. Yeah, on social media. And what I have found consistently, is that they continue to ignore a lot of what people want, or what at least what they're saying they want on social media. 15:20 Absolutely. Well, they got short memories. They forget that like, just 10 or 15 years ago, nobody gave a shit about them. 15:27 So before we also kick it off and dive even further, you know, if you're watching on video, you might be hearing some background noise and people shuffling through because we are recording an episode of this podcast from the barrel room at Hotel distil, which is going to be on historic whiskey row here in Louisville, and it's set to open on November 1. And hotel distill is a place that is exciting. It's got a rich history that's happening here. It's now being transformed into this great space. It's designed to really, you know, what they say is ignite your passion for discovery and we'll do this 16:00 Social anchor for Louisville's revitalization and refinement of bourbon culture and you can book your experience now and stay at this authentic little destination at Hotel distil com. Yeah, I think this JTS Browns office they said at one point there Yeah, this is the actual building his office I had no idea Fred you got any insight into Yeah, this is this is the this is one of the I actually have an old photo of of like the 16:28 an old photo of like the outside and said JTS Brown, it was actually out there. 16:31 Yeah. facade. 16:33 Yeah. And, you know, a lot of cool things happened in here. 16:37 It just amazes like 1015 years ago, all this was like a dump. And yeah, I mean, it was it was like a Renaissance. I mean, 16:43 it was I saw what whiskey row was. I mean, I remember one of our first podcast we did was actually saving whiskey row and what it was, and all the effort that went in for historical and preservation societies of what it went to actually save a lot of the buildings and the facades that you do see out here, 16:57 guys, I want you to think about this. You know, in the 1800s, early 1900s, there were fellows walking around and their suits, go into meetings, and they were brokering deals about bulk whiskey. And they were talking about, like, you know, exporting it to Japan or Germany or wherever. I mean, this is where all the action happened. for American whiskey, where it's like, we're right here at the wall street of whiskey. I really don't like using that term, but it is it really is. And it just kind of went away. And level. You know, I and I give a lot of this credit to our mayor, Mayor Fischer. Greg Fischer. I really don't think, you know, any of this Renaissance happens without, you know, kind of like his, his vision to like, improve, improve this part of our culture. 17:46 Well, and I know and it might be a slider, Ryan, you know, he always has this famous line that you know Bardstown as the capital of bourbon, but it still is global is the epicenter of bourbon. Well, maybe now. 17:58 10 years ago, not so much. Nobody cared about down there, down here. They saw how cool it was in barge towns, they're like, Oh, we gotta do we gotta go do it now. 18:05 Absolutely. 18:06 So I'll play a Bardstown can put up some hotels like this, I think 18:10 they missing it. They need this, put a distill and bars down the awesome. Here we go. 18:15 So let's go ahead. And let's dive back into the subjects here. And let's go ahead and we'll take we'll take an easy one, right. I mean, this is one that is a recent news because as people in ourselves live in little boy live in Kentucky, we had access to the white label have six year Heaven and Hell bottle and bond. And it was a, you know, it kind of made. It was pretty big news, right? I mean, when they said they were gonna take it off the market. However, there was no announcement to say that there was going to be a relaunch, there's no anything like that. It was just something that I think it usually kind of started through the grapevine where the distributors found out about it distributors told the retailers, the retailers then told the consumers and then from there, everything went kind of Bismarck, and people just started clearing the shelves left and right. And Kentucky is actually finding this, this white label. And fast forward two to three months afterwards, then a press release comes out that says they're gonna be relaunching with an additional year, and, you know, three x the actual price of what it was before, before you can get it around, what 1215 bucks. And then it was coming back with an SRP of $40. But not only this is also be going out a little bit further outside of Kentucky hitting I think, what 678 states something like that during its first launch. So let's kind of talk about that. What do you think heaven hell did wrong in this situation? 19:41 Well, they, we kind of talked about this on the round table, but you know, that they think we're like stupid or something like they just totally like think, as consumers, like, we'll put out this press release. And just believe what we say. And it happened with the logic, Craig 12. You know, for years, we were like, we're like, oh, we're gonna move the 12 from the front to the back. And you're like, is it going away, no, never, never gone away. And then it goes from the back. It's not no longer and a number, they write the letter 12 or the word 12 on the back. And then after that, and it's like, you think we're stupid, then they do the same thing with heaven Hill, like six year they'd say, Oh, it's going away and never coming back. And then, you know, home to hold. Three months later, get a press release. And so it's like, I get what they're doing, they're going to try to make it a more premium product to the mainstream audience. But like 10 to 15 years ago, nobody cared about you. 20:40 I mean, let's let's also, I'll take their side, little bit here, you know, not even told that that was really happening. Not a ton of people really cared about the white label. I mean, it was always available. It's always there. It was something that was kind of our whiskey geek. Like it was like the thing you knew about like, you're like, that's the bottle that you go, that's 99 or 1099, that you could always count on as a 21:04 great poor at a great value. And like you said, it was kind of you had to be in the know to know about it. 21:10 To answer your question, Kenny, I think the one thing that the mistake they made was transparency. And I I'm very, very close with with heaven Hill, I think their whiskies fantastic. Some of the best I mean, I they do a great job. But I think in this growth of American whiskey, there has been a, there still has been a little bit of this kind of like old school protectionism, of holding on to their ideas and what they're going to be doing, you know, to kind of protect it from, you know, their competitors finding out. Well, really what has happened is that consumers, we feel like we have a right to know, of like, what's happening, 22:00 But what are they hiding? Like? It's whiskey. Like they act like they got like 22:06 you would if they said, We are pulling heaven hills, six year old off the market, to rebrand it, and bring it back as a seven year old bottle and bond at an additional price to more consumers? Would you be? See that's just I think most people would be fine with that. And the last thing I would have been fine with, hey, we really want this to stay available on shelves, we don't want to be like, well, they're 12. So that's why we're going to drop the age statement, kind of do a blend of eight to 12 which, by the way, they 12. So I mean, I was to use Preston van winkles term, I was bought hurt for probably about two years. 22:45 You still don't let it go. 22:47 But it was Elijah Craig 12 years is like so 22:50 tricky. Just like, like we're in it, but the age statement, you know, write it on the back and like had it and then eventually just phase it out and then change it. 22:58 I also so so that that's to me is the only thing the business decision to do it. I don't have a problem with and I don't think it's them not caring about their consumers? I think it's I think it's simply a I think they make a decision and they try to think about the best way to release it. And they're not thinking about necessarily the backlash and the whiskey geek state, we are still very much a very small portion. We are the one percenters 23:23 right, that's that's the one one thing I think, if I keep taking the distillery side of this, and I keep thinking, well, if I'm heaven Hill, I, my goal is to look at the broader market, right? My goal is to focus on that. And when I even put out these press releases, who cares? Except, you know, the 10,000 people that are like really hardcore into this, right. And 23:47 I'm still just flabbergasted by like, they think they have this secret stuff. Do you think like Buffalo Trace gives a shit that they're taking heaven Hill six off year and bringing it and relaunching it like, what do they? What do they think they're hiding? Like, I didn't mean from a competitive stamp, right? Like, yeah, I mean, this, whiskey takes years to develop to what it becomes. And so like, when you announce something, you've thought about it for a very long time, like, somebody just can't replicate it, like a month later, you know, 24:14 let's remember to 14 years ago, when there was like, there were like, two or three of us out there, kind of writing about this sort of thing. Now, I mean, you have a sea of social media, people, you know, finding a bottle, you know, analyzing every single thing, and it's very knowledgeable base. And so we can, you know, people can find out things really quickly. And also heaven hills got a you know, they have a few people in their organization that, you know, will get on social media and or under anonymous handles and say things. So there's that some moles they have, 24:52 they have some leaders. And so does that mean, they all do? 24:55 Nailed it? So I'll take the other side of this. And we had Larry cast on the show, right? You know, before he retired, and Larry is still being even in his retirement. He's actually been very outspoken on this even on social media and Hall 25:07 of Famer, by the way, yes, yes. 25:08 Recent inductee to it. Yeah. And, you know, he goes against the saying is insane. Like, the brand has been undervalued for far too long. True. And it's and it's very true. I think, I think bourbon in itself has been undervalued for this is very true. I agree with all that. But I guess, you know, when we look at it from another standpoint of, you know, if we're going to, is there a market to keep bringing $15 bottles of whiskey or where are we past that because it had been that way for so long is it do we just need to move on. And 25:37 so I've done some research and the studies show that when you raise prices, you actually get more customers. And I've witnessed many people go into liquor stores and my various, you know, book signings and stuff and you know, they're new to bourbon, they don't know anything about it. And the the store rap will try to get someone to buy four roses yellow label, and they'll look at the price. And they say, No, it's too cheap. I want that one. And they'll point to like Jefferson's reserve. And I'm picking I'm picking four roses yellow label every day of the week, over Jefferson's reserve. We still love Trey about Yeah, still. Yes, but but that from a value perspective, you know, I'm saying it's like, that's like, it's, you know, I'm saving pennies, or I'm saving, you know, 1015 bucks. Absolutely. But the the everyday consumer looks at this as a luxury good. And $15 isn't luxury. And that's that's kind of where they're, that's where these these distillers you're coming from? 26:38 Yeah, and understand that from like, if you're buying a gift or wanting to try something special, but if you're wanting like, quality everyday drinkers, you know that you gotta have an affordable option like 30 $30 for heaven Hill balled and bond, I think, or whatever, it's gonna be $40. I think it's overpriced for what it is. I'm, it's me, it's good. But I can drink some great, didn't you? 27:04 Me it was that great. He kept he kept 27:05 himself from 27:08 Above Average? 27:11 Well, I mean, from an everyday drinker to like, Am I going to go buy it at 40. Whereas if I would have it, you know, constantly on my bar, but they don't care about me, they care about the mass audience. And so, 27:22 all right, so here's the here's the sad, hard truth of it. The only line against this is the bartender, the bartender, has to have it at a surf a certain price in order for them to make money. And you can't make a $40 cocktail, right? You gotta it's got to be 10 to 15. So that's why that's why like in scotch, you know, they have like monkey shoulder and Glenlivet, 12 year old, you know, it's very affordable, you know, well, scotches, and the bartender community will always make sure that we have a 15 to $25 bird, because they have to make money on it. And you know, Larry rice is not going to be making cocktails with you know, $55 bourbon. 28:09 Absolutely. So I guess that's the kind of like, makes me think of another question. Like, if one of the main strategies behind bullet and how bullet became so big was because they were able to get behind the bar. Yeah. So in bullet is not a 15 $20 bottle, right. I mean, last time I checked, it's still in the 35 to $50 category. I don't 28:29 know I actually I've seen it for I saw like $18 Cosmo, is it? 28:33 Yeah, well, nevermind. Yeah. bullets in the sub $25 range, we found out what Kenny doesn't buy. 28:41 Just don't pay that much attention, apparently. 28:45 So I think we beat up on heaven Hill a little bit. So I think, 28:48 well not beat up on them. It's just they know, the criticism. And they, they they see it. And it's also stuff that I wouldn't tell them to their face. You know, like, I guess we'll do it on the podcast. back. No one's gonna hear the end day always push back of like, we are. We're a business and we're trying to make money. What I really the thing about it is I also feel bad for heaven Hill, because they get they do get a lot of blowback, and poor Bernie lovers. That guy's doing his job. 29:21 Yeah, but they do it themselves. They do it 29:22 themselves. But Bernie's like, sometimes just kind of left on an island. He's got to be the punching bag, you know? And it's like, I hope they're paying him well, and if not, they need to give him a raise, because that he takes a lot of a 29:34 lot of abuse. And it feels he gotta have a little bit of empathy for him too, because he ends up being like the spokesperson for the brand. I mean, yeah, right. Ryan, do you remember when we interviewed him? We had a two part interview. And we actually asked him, we asked him about Elijah Craig, and the 12 year age statement. And he looked, I mean, he came and he said, and he has no, it's not going away. You know, we're just moved to the back and little blah. And then, like, two months later, 29:57 again, whoops. Yeah, you know, we had to do this because make it available. And it's like, well, two minutes later, it was available and what changed it to 30:05 remember to like, automation, he had, oh, it's not his fault. It's and that's the and that's also the information that the someone gave him had, you know, so, you know, the decision was made that I have no doubt that, you know, they're looking at stocks and they're looking at where the future is and everything, and they make they make decisions in a moment and, and then everyone else is is forced to, like kind of 30:31 catch up to it. I guess. I just don't understand. I understand. Yes, Bourbons undervalued. I totally agree with that. But that's what your logic Craig's your inner McKenna's your Evan Williams single barrels your William heaven hills that's what they're those are brands are for heaven Hill has been a everyday affordable drinker. I don't understand why pivot takeaway from those brands to position this one when it's been like a bomb on the shelf all for all i also 30:58 think so you're thinking one particular thing get to realize when you go to Heaven Heaven hell we've all been in the label room there's hundreds of thousands of labels that they have maybe not hundreds but the definitely thousands Yeah, and I'm pretty sure like a bought every abandoned trademark of Oh, I just don't know that. So let me keep going here because I know when you think about the heaven hell bottom Yvonne that's one thing but you still got Evan lanes bottle and bond. You've got virgin you've got all these things but don't get me wrong I know people are starting to hate on the virgin thing now because they're dropping the age statement off that one as well. So you know it's just a continual progression of what are they going to be able to do 31:32 be honest that was the best marketing that virgin ever had no one knew about that fucking perfect. I mean, we can hear me there's like we knew about it sounded but like i was i was cracking up with like all these people like, like you didn't know about that bourbon. It was a very like I mean, heaven Hill bottle the mom people knew about it, but it's like out of the woodwork they're all a virgin fan. Like Come on. 31:54 Yeah, that was where it was mostly in like North Carolina Yeah. 31:58 There was like a Washington's like, I can't get any worse. Like you couldn't get it anyway. 32:02 Yeah, you know, so not even be tried. But 32:04 it's like I don't know what you're saying they 32:06 still came out. I mean, they rebranded it and came out of quality house right. So it's still still the same box he you know, 32:14 let's mean heaven hills seven years old and bond thousand barrel dump is not a $40 bottle like it 32:24 I get it, it's a rebranding. It's a way to do this. I mean, you can also see this as a way that you know, they they wanted to remove the name heaven Hill, from lower in tears, like, okay, green labels not 32:35 gone away the 90 proof one, you know why? Because someone in the Shapiro family, that's what they buy. Oh, well, so it's on their it's on their bar inside. And so it'll it'll always be there because they that's what they drink. You know, I think it's probably important that we also look at some of the some of the brands that have reacted to consumers pushing back pricing. Like when Booker's announced that they were going to be $100 bottle, you know, they went, they they reverted pretty quickly, because they were like, they were getting a murder. Remember that? 33:13 Oh, yeah, just it was 33:14 11 years ago, they changed it, but yeah, 33:16 they changed it back. And, you know, they didn't have to change any branding or anything. But, you know, they still have a little bit of residual 33:25 in I mean, to be fair Booker's, probably, I mean, it's a barrel proof six year like, really good bourbon. I mean, 33:32 I used to get it for 55 bucks. Yeah. And it was it was 33:37 the most incredible values out there. 33:38 That is a that is to me, that was a more palatable, you know, price increase. You know, they decided change, I think it's 75 or something like that. CSRP now it's about it's probably right where it needs to be and I think people are happy with 33:54 that you were still happy with that. And I mean, I still recommend it to people who haven't tried something and you want to you know, start elevating and trying to go barrel proof and you know, to kind of just take a note off your above the char from weeks ago, you know, being able to experience the different flavors you can get with barrel proof by starting at barrel proof, adding some water adding some ice letting the ice melt, you know, you get you get to experience bourbon five different ways. In a in a barrel proof whiskey like that. So 34:20 some you can always find to, but you know, 34:22 Becker, Booker's isn't the only one remember makers, even what had been five years ago about the 2013? The proof? 34:29 Yeah, the proof debacle, they still won't, they still won't talk about it. So for our listeners out there, this is what happened in 2013, Maker's Mark decided to lower their proof from 90 proof to 84. And they announced it to their brand ambassadors, which is their program that they have for their sir customer loyalty program. So they sent an email to it and people in batch it crazy. It was it was it ended up being front page news, Jay Leno, or one of the you know, the talk shows were talking about it. He was on CNN, it was everywhere. And I got like this. I was I was covering it very, very intensely. And I got these interviews with Bill Samuels and Rob Samuels. And I remember bill saying like, oh, son of a bitch, I guess people really care about our wisdom, you know. And it's like, they say, Bill always has this way of like, making everything sound funny and putting things in perspective. But they changed it back. But to this day, people think people think it's a, it was a marketing ploy, because it was only eight days that they had it out there. But think about it, they had to change their labels, you know, they had to pull. Well, they had they already had products out there had 35:42 a product out there. I mean, and that's kind of I think, I wouldn't say it's a unicorn by any means. But it's definitely a unique bottle that people could have how many 84 proof? maker's marks do you have? I don't 35:52 even think I've ever had it or tried it. 35:55 Not to have you had it, lady? I know. I bet it I they actually I tasted it on the air for a TV station. I was like, yeah, this is it's more watered down. It was like very light. There you go. I mean, really, it's makers is not the I mean, it's nice, but it's not the most complex whiskey. You know, it's it's fine for what it is. But I really did think it was a bad move from a whiskey perspective, because you could taste the difference. You really could. 36:18 Yeah, but I think they've they've been able to rebound and with flying colors. So I haven't really had a problem. 36:26 These companies need like somebody on their team, like they have like bean counters, like making these decisions. You 36:31 know, like, I mean, let's not like in the in the government, they just don't have, like, the government has like someone from like, so the VA has like veterans on committees, to, like have like a veteran oversight committee to make sure that the veterans are getting treated like they should be instead of like the, you know, the doctors want, maybe you want to treat them. And I think you're right, I think that might not be a bad idea. But you know what, they're never going to go for it. And you know, and here's an example I can think of like Sazerac in a lot of people's eyes. They're their public enemy number one. And that's that's because their stuff is highly allocated hard to get. But it's so damn good. Yeah, so I mean, it's same with heaven Hill, their whiskey so damn good. It's kind of like you know, it's kind of like the it's a love hate relationship. Exactly. It's like the the girlfriend you had in high school who couldn't stand but she was so hot, ready? 37:26 Like, I can't help myself, like crap, but yeah, I can't stop 37:31 it. So I guess, you know, will kind of shift the gears a little let's talk about Sazerac. 37:38 As the saying goes, Portland is weird. Perhaps it's something in the water. It turns out that there might be some truth to that. The Oregon capitals primary water source is supplied by the bowl run watershed. It's also the key ingredient and one of the city's most popular watering holes, Bull Run distillery, the boulder and watershed is a very unique water source. It's protected by an act of Congress back in the 1870s. And the city's 38:00 Others got their hands on a beautiful lake up in the Cascade Mountains. And it's been that way since the 1870s. It used to flow through wooden pipes by gravity to Portland. 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And what they do very well is that they are not pulling the strings of saying like okay, well, we're going to pull something off the market or we're going to just say like, Hey, we see what this stuff trades for we're not dumb, we're going to go ahead and we're going to MSRP our products at x, y, z value, right? They I believe that they are in it for the long game. Like Yeah, I'm they see this is not this is just a quick market blip, where it's going to be something that you know, if you chase after the short money in the short dollar, then that's all you're going to wait, that's that's all it's going to happen. Like you're not going to be able to sustain this for the next 1015 years. So you brought up a good point, because a lot of people distilleries do look at the secondary market, even though say they don't but to especially for limited releases, they really have kind of fell on the secondary market to price things. For me, it's gone up up up and up every single year. And where it says right, it's kind of kind of stay true to like, I mean, I don't me wrong, there's been there's been gradual increases. I mean, if you take it back to 2010 days, you know, antique collection was probably $65, whatever, but going up to 100. Like that's not a that's not a good, that's not a huge ship. 40:48 Parker's was 5575 bucks. And now it's like 400, depending on you know, that 24 years, like 400 bucks or 300 bucks 40:57 retail, and then you take a birthday bourbon, for example, back in 2003, that was a $45 bottle. Now, it's 161 60 out the door at the distillery. So I mean, it's, it's, that's definitely 41:11 something way that the way that says rack operates is basically through the brain of Mark Brown. And Mark is a very conservative, you know, thinker when it comes to business and how they do things. But he's also a long term planner, they have planned out their whiskey projections through 2043. So they are they are that planned out. And they have made the appropriate, you know, business decisions that, you know, to get them where they need to be, I think that the biggest concern that consumers have with the way that company operates is through distribution. Now a lot of it is not anything that they can control. You go into a retailer or an on premise facility. And they will tell you, the only way that they can get Pappy or Buffalo Trace antique collection is if they carry Wheatley, vodka or some of the others as rack brands in large quantities now, that is that is a decision that is made at the distributor level is not. 42:18 That's because I always I always kind of thought like, somehow there's something working in the back the back room over here. And there's greasy palms to be able to say like, you 42:26 know, I'm saying like, if you want this, you gotta that is a very good conspiracy theory to have. But as of right now, it is illegal, you know, to have those conversations for it is illegal for a, a supplier to dictate who gets what, that is an actual law. That is under the federal alcohol administration act. Now, what is happening? I don't know. But I do know that everybody wants that whiskey. And, you know, how does how does the distributor make the decision of who to give it to? Now I've had conversations with people like Joe Beatrice, who's like, the only way you can do this is, you know, top, top level now, you know, customer loyalty. And so it's like, you know, how do they How does the distributor make the decision of who gets the five bottles of Pappy? Is it a? Is it a favoritism thing? Because if that's the case, that's also you know, is that is that fair? Is it you give it to the one who's like doing you're doing your bulk purchases, I've also heard of them like, like the distributors making decisions of like giving using Pappy to get rid of non Sazerac product. So like being would be in their portfolio or, you know, another big brand like that and say like, take up, take all this off of her hand, and you get you get a case of happy. So that stuff happens. And that is not, you know, to my knowledge, you know, I don't know how that you know how those conversations are going. Well, you don't know that's 43:59 the necessarily sighs rags. Yeah. Problem. It's, it comes back to them. But do you think they falsely manipulate their supply? Like to create this allocation? Like myth or because every time I go to Buffalo Trace, there's, they're always bottling blends, and it's always piled up cases? Because it's like what they have done. They got as many warehouses as all these 44:25 other big boys. Yeah, but you gotta realize they're also filling in the hand doing every single one with six people on the line. That's not that's not heaven. Hill level automation. 44:33 Yeah. What a lot of warehouses a lot age juice in there. I mean, this is true. 44:38 What what they do, they do put out, they used to put out an annual press release, about that, and it got picked up everywhere. You know, a smart marketing will say that. But what what Buffalo Trace has done is that they have spread the markets out so much like so let's say, you know, they're trying to penetrate every market in the country. My best friend lives in northern Wisconsin. He's building a Buffalo Trace, really now he can only have one bottle a month, because, you know, because now that northern allocations is moving on over to North Dakota. And so what they have done is they have they're trying to saturate the domestic markets so much that they've spread themselves out of being able to get into the hands of a lot of people so so that allocation that supply is because they're trying to open up bars in Montana, and places like Montana and Wyoming North Dakota. You know, I dare say you walk into a random liquor store there and you might you might find like a gold mine of like Sazerac products. 45:42 Well, where are they? Who are they using their, you know, everyday products like Buffalo Trace or Willer will or 12? To kind of fuel the more premium products like v tak and Pappy, do you think that you know, I mean, most of the most of what they do is they come out with a a lower version of everything that you get stack Junior, you gotta go rare, and then you get the big boys on top. But I know it seems like there's more like 12 year, it's I think it's sometimes easier to get a van Winkle 12 than it is a well or 12 zalando 46:12 you know, well, I think that's this is also just the the rise and the rise of bourbon and the amount of people that are looking forward to I mean, that's we say it's it's hard. It's it's not because yes, I still think there's I would honestly, probably guess that there's probably they're pushing out more product now than they ever have. But it seems still scares to us, because there's still more people now that are looking for it. 46:36 It's I'll put on their hat for a second. They have everybody in the world wants them. How do you how do you decide? What market gets what? 46:47 Yeah, I mean, that's that's it's definitely a tough call. Because you've gotta you gotta take one out of your your your playbook here is is who's been with us for the longest time who are the most loyal customers? Who are the ones with the biggest pockets right now that are really want us? I mean, Money Talks, like let's not be Bernie lovers always said it the best. This is not the bourbon charities the bourbon business. Yeah. And so who's got who's got money? money's gonna talk. And if, if by some chance and Ryan, we know, we've looked at this when we were opening up distribution for pursuit series, and we're like, oh, what state should we go for? And he did a trip down to Texas. And really, I 47:23 always forget that you to like on a brand. Like we're having this conversation. I'm like, wait, you guys hate your customers. 47:30 We listened to our customer feedback. We listened and we go, we go to a snail's pace. But I mean, but but the part was, you know, he said, like, let's look at Texas. And you look at Texas, and he came back from a trip. He was like, Kenny, this is this is so smart. Like why not? There's like, there are more people in the city of Dallas than there are in the state of Kentucky three times as many people in the city of Dallas as there is in the whole state of Kentucky. And then you got states or cities like Houston, San Antonio Austin, and you're like, why would you know, any liquor company would be smart to in they're thirsty. They're thirsty for it, right? And it's like, Okay, well, that's that's an easy target. So you go after the larger markets. 48:12 Dallas bourbon club, shout out to you boys. Yeah. 48:15 Peach MIT. Mm hmm. And so I mean, like, those are the those are the kind of three ways that I look at it. If I'm a if I'm a, you know, brand owner, and I want to figure out if I've got an allocated whiskey, how do I get into the hands of the people? That's the that's the way I'm going to go. Right. Do you have any kind of other thoughts on 48:32 I mean, just going back to what Fred said, like they're trying to get into these new markets, and I think they're trying to position themselves because they're, they're all pumping out a ton of juice. So when the product finally becomes of age, they don't they have us as customers already. So it's like, we need to go promoted other places. So when we do have this stock available, we can spread it out everywhere, not in whereas if they just focused on us bourbon, consumers are going to have a whiskey glut. 48:59 Well, they want to find new consumers too. Yeah. I mean, that's what I mean. Yeah, absolutely. We can't keep selling it to the same three guys here that have more bottles, and they can drink for the rest of their life. Right? They want to find new customers. And that's Yeah, that's really helpful. 49:11 Guys, that's what it comes down to. And you know, what, I saw that in the magazine business, you know, like, one of the big reasons why I decided to go out on my own for with the magazine is because the magazines I was writing for, were pursuing new audiences that would require me to be writing about cocktails, and you know, and not the stories that I wanted to tell. And so anytime you anytime you, ESPN did this to ESPN is inserted VH one and MTV. Anytime you water down, like what was the essence of what you were trying to do. And you're trying to reach a new audience, you're always going to like, appear, like you don't care about your original customer. It's just how it is you can grow 50:00 well, you cannot lose it. Well, to make it appeal to the mass market, you always have to like dumb it down to where like, because you have to make it appeal to everyone versus like a very small niche. And so that small niche that you appeal to at first, you kind of have to break away from them. Because the everyday consumer is not gonna be as passionate as that very small niches. Yeah, we're fairly early adopters. 50:24 Yeah. But you know, people they got a pivot to right now just think of MTV, like, I remember the last time I watched a music video on TV, but if I watch a music video, it's usually on YouTube, right? There's a new platform that takes over and takes care of that. But YouTube's a multi dimensional platform for all that kind of stuff. But you know, I kind of want to 50:40 talk about bourbon pursuit. Absolutely. 50:42 Absolutely. We will never done down 50:46 in Minnick media while we keep doing the shout outs here. Yeah. So let's, let's talk about two more brands. While we kind of wrap this up a little bit. You know, there's there's one brand that comes to mind. You know, we talked about old forester birthday bourbon, but brown Forman, I think they do an aggressive audible job of really not pissing off the consumer base, you know, they've got products that are continually coming out at aggressive price points. And, and really, they've only got it. Should I say, besides all four, it's a birthday bourbon, and they get king in Kentucky, they don't have a whole lot of stuff. That is the super premium, highly allocated stuff. And so they are continually trying to just make everyday solid products. 51:23 Yeah, I mean, the the old forester extensions, like great, everyday like, drinker. I mean, the bottom bond, the 86. I mean, those are like, I could drink the right, yes, they just came out well, but I mean, like these prohibition series, I mean, like the 1910, like, in 1920, just always, consistently blow my socks off. Every time I drink. I'm like, this is really good at 50 to 60. Buck. And one thing, one thing that 51:50 Chris Morris did with the prohibition series, is when they when they are know, when they did the wheat whiskey release with Woodford, you know, they it wasn't prohibition series was with Woodford, they sent the release out and said, We have now released every single type of whiskey that was allotted in the 1935 federal alcohol administration act, and I was just like, oh my god. And I'm like, there's probably not another person in the world who gave that we should talk about that. But I was like, I was like, the fact that you know, and they're released, they're dropping, like, one of the greatest, like legal documents I've ever read. And I was like, I was like, I can't kid in the candy store with that press release. I didn't publish it, but I was, you know, it was very well done. And that the thing about brown Forman is that they overly think, you know, so while they while they are doing a lot of this stuff, I also think they've been kind of left behind in a lot of these conversations of like, you know, you just mentioned you don't have a lot of allocated stuff. You know, so in like, if you are if you're if you're thinking about it, like is that not a good thing? I mean, because now you know, heaven hills got a lot of highly allocated stuff for roses highly Alec a lot of highly allocated stuff, and so does Buffalo Trace. And I don't see why, you know, brown Forman doesn't because their whiskey out of the barrel is incredible. 53:18 And we think it's because they promoted like Woodford so hard out the gate versus and kind of left old fo just a winner and then now it's kind of regain popularity. I think old foresters coming back hard. 53:30 Yeah, I birthday bourbon is highly allocated, by the way. It's very, very much is it but I look at 53:35 at what the resurgence of old forester as the same resurgence we see with 1792, right? Like, how many people were really like gung ho talk about 1792. and still they started coming off with all these extensions of their bottle and bond. Yeah, foolproof. Sweet. Hi, Robert. It's a 53:52 very interesting comparison because they have they both have a very unique note in there that I detect in both of them. No, bananas. Yeah, banana. No. You have to also remember that the beast of brown Forman is the world's number one whiskey and jack daniels. And I tell you what, some of the barrel proof stuff coming out of jack daniels right now. It's fantastic. It's some of the best whiskey you can find. And so, you know, I think what they what brown Forman does really, really well, is that 30 to $50 product, they do a great job with that. And I know a lot of people don't are not Woodford fans. But that's a lot of people's favorite bourbon. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've been I've been on airplanes where I've seen ladies yell at someone sitting next to them for pouring coke with Woodford like How dare you pour Coke? bourbon 54:46 airport. A lot of bourbon consumers that aren't whiskey geeks like Woodford is their premium go to you know, it's like I'm always amazed, not amazed because it is great juice. But it's like you forget that that it is like yeah, the common marketplace that sir like premium go to. 55:00 Alright, so one last gripe before we kind of close this out. And that's one thing that I've talked about at the top of the show. And that's the allocations of barrel pics that used to go to bourbon societies and used to go to people, charities, charities, bodies, everybody that was doing them early on. And now it's like that, sorry, you're not selling enough. And this is we're seeing this at four roses. We're seeing this at wild turkey. And so kind of talk about really, what is the effect of, kind of, from a if you're the manufacturer? Or if you're the the end consumer? Like, do you hate the brand more now? Like do you start to look at other places? I mean, because we're good friends with read an emerald from 1789 be, you know, they they said that their allocations are gone from wild turkey and other places like that, where they used to go and just go in and do barrel pics all the time. And now they're looking at other places. They're looking at wilderness trail they're looking at 55:52 Yeah, just it's opened up an opportunity for these like new players in the game to like, kind of like we've gone barrel pics so many places, but like you're not, you're treated more like royalty, when you go to like new roof or wilderness trails, or Willits, or somewhere, whereas the other ones are like, how can we get them in and out of here as fast as possible? It's clockwork to them. Yeah, it's like, we're going to roll out three barrels, and you have 15 minutes to taste each and then we're gonna go through this and this and get out now. So 56:22 Well, I mean, I still enjoy roses experience and stuff like that I still enjoy the experiences. I mean, when you go to wild turkey, you're there with Eddie and and, you know, you know, it's not Eddie making these decisions, right. You know, this this is definitely higher 56:35 up and then I also I also think that Eddie would make those decisions if he had to, you know, that's something we have to always remember that they're kind of protected like that we always want to give like the distillers a break, but they are you know, they have people there kind of around them to protect them and make them continue to look like the good guy, but don't think for a second that they're not in those rooms having conversations and saying like given their input. Yeah, well, we're about to lose our stock, you know, for 2025 if we keep doing these barrel pics, so they're looking out for the long term and healthiness of their brands and that and that's what I'm like a cop when they're around us, 57:11 then that's exactly 57:12 right. I do not be fooled by that. The niceties from the distillers leave me like someone like Bo Backman. It's as direct. Everybody hates that guy because he's the keeper of the barrels. But he's he's going off of what someone else tells him, you know, and he's got the allocation. 57:30 Yeah. And I'm sure if they if they had unlimited barrel supply, they'd love to keep doing it. Right. I mean, I think I think that's one thing that people don't understand. I don't know if they would they probably 57:40 it's like thing is is a inefficient process. And it's a low margin. Feeling personally, 57:43 are you feeling cut off? 57:45 No, I don't think I'm feeling personally cut off. I think it's Oh, let's let's try harder than us. 57:50 It's harder for us to go to So you mentioned 1789 be Let's mention I I'm a part of a charity that got cut off. what's what's another group that you know of that got cut off? I know about two retailers that got cut out of Wild Turkey? Well, yeah, 58:08 there's there's it's all around, right. I mean, it's there's definitely 58:12 we don't cross the board. We don't see a 58:16 you know, a commonality other than that. They're small. This place isn't getting cut off. MGM and Las Vegas isn't getting cut off. And total wine, liquor barn, they're not getting cut off. So it goes back to this this conversation of like, Who's spending the most money? And, you know, I think it's short sighted to cut out 1789 and you know, people like that, that have incredible connections within the bourbon world. 58:46 And we're the one of the pioneers of actually doing some of this 58:49 stuff. I don't I don't think they cut out some of 58:51 these gaps in a lot of money to charities, like a lot of good comes out of these. 58:55 But there's also been some charities that have been debunked. Right, you know, so you got to remember that to to just like we've seen with the counterfeit, they're always fuck wads that are going to take advantage of the the scenario the situation sounds like that. 59:07 Yes, absolutely. So I think we're going to go ahead and wrap that one up. Because you know, we've, we put some people under fire here, we make sure everybody knows that. If you're brand new, listen to this. We still love every single one of you. We still love the product you're putting out 59:20 we went talk about you if we didn't care. Exactly. I'm 59:23 on the show and join us. 59:24 Yeah, we're looking out for you. We want 59:26 what's best for you actually, they're not looking out for you. And not 59:29 well, we're looking at right 59:32 now they got a brand they're trying to knock you down. So their brand goes up. You don't have 59:35 to worry about 59:37 our toy 24 barrels a year, I think is like we don't we're 59:40 not gonna we're not gonna be stepping on any toes anytime soon. That's for sure. 59:44 Well, you know what I would, you know, I'll talk to you about this off the air. I'll bring this up. Sorry. 59:47 It's okay. So, you know, it was like I said, just make sure that you do have a pretty thick skin if you're listening this from brand, because we do We love you. We love having all the personalities and people behind the brands on the show. You know, we do 1:00:00 kind of look at this from, you know, we see what happens in the Facebook groups and Reddit and everything like that when people are writing blog posts of saying like, oh, like we don't like you anymore. So we're just trying to look at this from the consumer perspective. Don't shoot the messenger. Yeah, exactly. So I will. I will say, though, that I've said this for more than a decade. Don't forget the customers who brought you to the dance. That's it. Absolutely. So thank you everybody, for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode we recorded at Hotel distil hotel is still is located in downtown Louisville here on whiskey row. And for those of thirst new experiences, you should come check it out. It's a home for the connoisseurs of the finest comforts and gracious service. It's a space where you're going to pass through historic risk row facade and joy, a true and authentic global destination. You can book your experience for it yourself at Hoteldistil.com and it's set to open here on November 1 of 2019. So fellows, thank you once again for joining us. 1:01:00 show. Yeah, and we'll have e