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Zach has the honor of speaking to Debra Gore-Mann, president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, about tackling systemic equity. She graciously shares her unique career journey with us and talks a bit about what it looks like to manage the wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities she engages with in an effort to shift and create systemic change. Check out the show notes to connect with Debra and for more information on The Greenlining Institute!Connect with Debra on LinkedIn and Instagram.Interested in learning more about The Greenlining Institute? Check out their website.They're also on social media - follow them on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter.Read Debra's piece mentioned in the episode by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Man, really exciting times. I mean, exciting is a word for it, right? Like, got some concerns with the coronavirus, people working from home, new ways of working impacting marginalized folks in different ways, so definitely expect for our content to shift a little bit. So we're talking about and sharing tips on working from home and how to work from home, dealing with managers, leading teams if you're working from home and also dealing with managers who maybe have never had to manage you as you work from home. But all of that to say we continue to roll with the punches, y'all, and look, it's Tuesday. We're having another conversation, real talk in a corporate world. We do this, right? Like, we sit down with black and brown entrepreneurs, executives, CEOs--who are also executives, but you know what I mean--advocates, allies, public servants, elected officials, and look, today is no different. Like, we have a great guest, Debra Gore-Mann. Debra is the president and CEO of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Whoo, justice. That's a heavy word in these diversity & inclusion streets, and here they are, and here we go. Debra, welcome to the show, ma'am. How are you doing?Debra: Hi, Zach. Thanks so much for inviting me. I too am sitting in, you know, troubling times in that I am a decision maker on whether to work from home or whether to continue to bring folks into work, so I hear you on your opening.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, to your point about being a decision maker, I'd love to talk about your journey, right? Like, you've held a variety of different roles, from investment banking to being in athletics to being a chief development officer. Like, I'd love to hear more about your path. Like, as Living Corporate, and I think as we all continue to have these conversations, we've been blessed to talk to people with really unique journeys, right, and it seems as if honestly the people that are making the most impact have some of the most, initially on the outset, just curious paths to getting there. I'd love to hear more about just your story.Debra: Absolutely, and I think my journey is--you know, I used to think that is that it was unique, but the more that I've shared it the more I've realized that there were just some pivotal moments that happened, that happened to me. So in my journey, you know, I'm biracial. My mother is Japanese and my father is black, and he was in the military. And I know for some folks when you say "the military" it means--you know, it's a significant sort of life experience to have a parent who was in the military. So he meets my mother in Japan, and so, you know, she comes to the United States. So she was an immigrant, so I kind of speak that space. And our house was very much a bicultural home. We ate as much Japanese food as we ate soul food. So it was nothing for us to have sushi and collard greens.Zach: Y'all mixed it--y'all mixed it together?Debra: Yeah, totally. My mom just, like, just did both, just did both. Zach: Word? Hm.Debra: But the one thing that was sort of emphasized in our house was education, and equally from my father's side, you know, black household, as the Asian side. I did have a bit of a tiger mom, so people might know what that means, [laughs] you know? And education was important, and so, you know, really kind of overachieved in that space, and here was one of these critical, pivotal moments, right? So finishing high school I'm literally the number two in my class--I think they call it the salutorian--my best friend was the number three person in the class, and I'm going to apply for colleges, and the story she gets--and she's German but white, and the story I get when we compare notes are completely different. I'm told to go to a community college. My family can't afford to send me to college, but this would be a good stepping stone. I mean, it was a very positive conversation, and then I compared with my friend Lilly and she's like, "She told me that I should apply to some of the best schools on the West Coast," but in particular, 'cause I'm originally from Seattle-Tacoma, the University of Washington or the University of Oregon. Totally different story. And so, you know, we're sort of going, "Yeah, this is because you're black." [laughs] And I'm like, "Yeah, it is," but, you know, I didn't know. I hadn't gone to college. My sister--I had an older sister, and she went because, through the PSATs, somebody offered her a full scholarship, so I thought that's how it happened. Well, lo and behold, her brother had gone to MIT. He comes home during that winter break and he says, "Oh, no, you guys--you're #2? You're #3 in the class? You guys are applying to ivy leagues." And we're like, "What's an ivy league school?" 'Cause our counselor didn't tell us anything like that. And so I end up applying to Stanford, Harvard, Princeton, Cal Tech, the University of Michigan, right? Sort of high technical schools, high academic schools. She applies to Yale, Harvard. We still apply to our local school, the University of Washington. I also applied basketball, so that's gonna come in here. So I had some athletic scholarships as well, and ended up we got into I want to say 9 out of 10 of the schools we applied to. She ends up going to Yale and I end up going to Stanford, and that in and of itself--so if you're in an Asian household, you know, for the daughters to leave the home is sort of "bad daughter, disobedient," so my mother was like, "You're not--" She doesn't know Stanford from anything else. She's like, "You're not going to California? You're a bad daughter." So my first courageous step was to say, "I'm gonna go to this school. It's in California," because of my good friend's brother who was like, "This is one of the top schools in the country. You need to go." So that's my first sort of, you know, accidental but intentional advice that I got, and then, you know, going to Stanford really kind of changed my life from there, opened up a whole new dialogue, really started to understand my biracialness. Now we have a term, intersectionality. At the time intersectionality was not necessarily as bright and clear, but I really started to understand that and, you know, had an engineering degree. I worked at a tech company, a material science tech company, when I graduated, then I went back to graduate school--back to Stanford--and got my MBA, and at that time I gotta be honest, you know, I was really motivated by money. We were a lower middle-class. You know, my dad was in the military. My mother worked as a domestic housekeeper, so I was cleaning houses, helping her clean houses from a very early age, so I can clean a mean bathroom now to this day. [laughs] Zach: To this day. [laughs]Debra: To this day, you know? You don't want me to come visit your house.Zach: [laughs] I might. [laughs]Debra: "I need to clean this bathroom!" [laughs] And so it was really kind of important for me to sort of maximize my value, so I went to Wall Street, you know? I went to work at an investment bank, and even realized--well, let me take a step back. Another circumstance that happened, when I went to graduate school, I ended up being the only black female in that class. And this is, you know, 1987. But what happened--and I went to admissions and I was like, "How can I be the only black woman in my class?" There was about 25 to 28 of us who had applied, but we all applied at very competitive--so Wharton, Harvard, you know, Princeton. You know, top business schools. Wharton, Northwestern, and the rest, the other 24, went to all the other schools. I was the only one that year that picked Stanford. [laughs] So here I'm in a class, you know, where I'm the only sort of black female voice, and so in, like, every class it's like, "Well, what does Debbie think?" Zach: You become the representative.Debra: I'm the representative, I'm, like, the sole representative, but I'm still identifying as biracial. I'm like, "Why don't y'all care about my Japanese lineage?" But in any case, right, so I land squarely in that, and what really helped me navigate that was that I played basketball, and we would have these pickup games, and I would, you know, be ballin' with the rest of the white guys who are now, you know, running companies, running venture capital, but sports was my translator and my equalizer, and so I've always very much leaned into sports vernacular and ability, and I think that has served me well, frankly, in my corporate leadership and everything, to be able to talk sports--and I mean, like, really talk sports--has really helped.Zach: And what position did you play? Not to cut you off.Debra: I was a point guard. I was a point guard.Zach: Okay, so now how would you characterize your game? Were you, like, a combo? Or were you, like, a facilitator?Debra: Yeah. So I was definitely a floor general. I didn't shoot as much, but, you know, a lot of assists, played all 40 minutes, you know? Started as a freshman, all four years, last two years team captain, so I think the leadership stuff kind of developed there. Played a lot with men. I think that's a common thread with women who really sort of want to elevate their game, you know, playing against people who are bigger, quicker, and stronger really gets your game up there. But, you know, so I'll make analogies--I was actually talking to a coalition person, and, you know, they have a very strong coalition, and I said, "Well, you know, here's my analogy. I'm like Kevin Durant coming to the Warriors after you guys won a couple." [both laugh] And that frames it, right? Like, "Oh, yeah. We're balling," but look, I've got some skills, and I can come and, please, let's just try to win some more championships. So sometimes those sports analogies, like, you know, people are like, "Oh, I get what you're talking about."Zach: They put it together, yeah.Debra: Yeah, and then you also don't sound--you know, it's pretty arrogant to say, like, "I'm Kevin Durant." Like, I'm not Kevin Durant, but people understand that there's a skill set coming into the game. And so I tend to do that. So anyways, I go to Wall Street, and that was yet another environment where I'm, you know, very few--let's see, in that cohort I was the only African-American in that cohort, and then Wall Street is, you know, definitely--I always tell people "Until you make some money, you can walk away from money," so I was able to, you know, buy a home, help my family. You know, my father had passed, so I was able to help my mom with her house. I had a portfolio of investments and could, you know, really speak money and capital and understanding that, but, you know, after I made some money I was like, "Wow, this is not very fulfilling. This is "What have you done for me lately? What's your last transaction?"" And, you know, you're constantly just pushing the rock up the hill. So at that point then I stayed in the private sector and I used my engineering degree with my finance, and in the Bay Area there's a company called Bechtel, who is a large engineering infrastructure company, family-owned, and they have an in-house boutique financial arm, and because I had engineering and I had finance I went to work for that in-house boutique bank, and the beauty of that is it's a global company, so I had a passport and for, you know, five years I worked out of the country. China was opening up in some of their enterprise zones a lot in Latin America, South America, and did these large, large structured finance in foreign currency. So good multi-tasking, you know? The language, the currency. It was sort of complicated transactions, and I loved that work. Like, loved, loved, loved that work, and then the big pivot was I got married and I had a child.Zach: Congratulations, congratulations.Debra: And for women that's a big deal. Even for me at the time, you know, I had worked on a big, multi-billion dollar deal in Mexico, and they weren't gonna let me have maternity leave. They didn't have maternity leave actually. So we crafted--you know, I had accelerated some deals that I had done, so I killed myself working 100 hours so that I could take three to four months off. There wasn't--so when people talk about maternity leave and FMLA, I was like, "Yes! Where do I sign up?" This is some of the policy work, right, that now I'm all in because I lived through a time when women didn't have that. No matter how big my deal was, you know? I could be straight ballin' and it's like, "There's no maternity leave." And the big fear was that I wasn't gonna come back to work, that I was gonna love motherhood, and I was like, "Maybe." Like, I didn't know. I hadn't had a child. So sure enough I get my four months off and really missed working, so to the women who listen to your podcast, you know, I think that will resonate. It's like either, you know, the maternal part is like, "Oh, I love being at home," and I loved that too, but I really had this desire to keep working, and for me at that time then I couldn't just get on an airplane, be gone two or three weeks, 'cause I'd come back and my daughter was, you know, talking or rolling over. I was like, "No, no, no." So I always--I don't know how much space or people have talked to you about, you know, "Your network is your net worth," so I leaned into my network and I said, "Look, y'all. I need a job in the United States. Let's keep it simple, but if it could be in California all the better," and different kinds of, you know, opportunities came in, and it was, you know, someone in my network that said, "Hey, you went to Stanford twice, and the athletic department's looking for a CFO," and I had done enough structured deals, right, that we had some development companies and I had served as the financial officers in some devcos, so, you know, I said, "Okay, let me interview." Okay, so you'll love this, Zach. So I go into this interview. The athletic director was Ted Leland, who was probably one of the top five athletic directors in the country. The faculty athletic rep was Jerry Porras, and he had co-written the book "Built to Last," which was a best seller, with Jim Collins, who then wrote "Good to Great." He's the faculty athletic rep, and then the provost is this--you know, this black professor who's up and coming named Condy Rice.Zach: What?Debra: So I'm interviewing--at the time though... come on, now, we're in the '90s. At the time I'm like, "Okay, athletic director, sports, small field," right? I had been doing global deals. My deals were in the Wall Street Journal and the Financial Times. I'm like, "[?] He's an athletic director." Now, Jerry Porras, Jerry Porras I'm like, "Okay, you're kinda ballin'. You're writing best sellers. You're Latin. First of all, you're a Latino male who's a tenured professor at Stanford." So I got a white male who went to community college and now is the athletic director at Stanford. I have a Latino male and then this African-American professor, Russian studies. I was like, "Oh." So, you know, think about the diversity of that right there. Think of the diversity. Black woman, Latino male, white man, and they are gonna be the nucleus. So they say--you know, I talk the talk about "Okay, this is how I would do the athletic department as the CFO and how I'd run it," and they were like, "This is great. We'd like to offer you the job." And I was like, "Great. What's the pay?" It was, like, a 50% pay cut, and I was like, "Oh, yeah, no." Remember, even when I was an undergrad I was like, "Yeah, I gotta make some money, and I'm taking care of my family," and then at this point I'm now sandwiched. I'm taking care of both, right, my own family and then my mother's. So we're kind of that sandwiched generation. So I'm like, "Thank you so much. Here's my dilemma: I can't take the pay cut. It's too much of a pay cut," and I thought it was done, right? So I'm, like, moving on. I'm interviewing other places. I almost went into consulting. I get a call back from Ted that says, "We want you to interview one more person," and I was like, "But I--" And he said, "No, just go to one more interview," and I end up interviewing with the vice president of finance, and they're thinking that--the athletic department reported to the position in the finance office, and so he interviews me and he says, "Look, I'm gonna give you this job and this job," so when I joined Stanford I held the position in the athletic department and then I held a position in the University, which allowed them to basically double my salary and keep me whole. So I was just like, "Wow," you know? So another pivotal kind of--and that's the transition. Like, the transition--I think a lot of people might have to take a pay cut or whatever, but I kind of feel like, "Well, my tool box was pretty robust. I could speak the sports language. I had been speaking the sports language through my whole financial--" So when it came to interviewing in this completely different industry, I was able to translate and transfer those skills, and then, you know, got into--so that's my pivot into college sports and my real first exposure into sort of diversity of thought, you know, equity, what does that look like for women of color. There was a real commitment to Title IX. Stanford was one of the first schools--and I was that first generation that got the title. Literally those scholarships came out in '81, so I'm dating myself now, and I was the first generation to get Title IX scholarship, a full scholarship. So I've been in this space, right? I've been in this equity, justice, racial, just living it, and so, you know, just fast forward. I did, you know, sort of run the gamut in athletics, and when this opportunity at The Greenlining Institute opened up, it is the single place where I have been able to unapologetically, openly talk about racial equity in all forms, and my work is to remove those barriers and to provide economic opportunity. So I'm still true to my message of "Okay, we gotta develop personal wealth, community wealth, and then remove the racial barriers," and it's full-stop, you know, redlining, community development, all of the things that are--you know, affordable housing, health care, all of the intersections now, and I just do it full-throated. So there I go. There it is, Zach. There's the journey. [both laugh]Zach: That's incredible, and you know what's interesting? 'Cause, you know, you talked about dating yourself, but what I hear in that though is the fact that you've really lived this life and you're doing this work, like, beyond the buzzwords of today, right? So, you know, today when we talk about diversity and inclusion or we talk about equity in a corporate context, you know, we don't really mean making people whole, driving for just--like, creating paths to justice or, like, systemic change, right? Like, we're not really talking about that. Like, not really, not in the average diversity, equity and inclusion conversations. We're typically talking about some type of training and some communications, and so what I'm really excited about as we kind of get into this interview is, like, more about the work and where you see The Greenlining Institute going. And to that end, in a piece that you wrote for The Greenlining Institute announcing your arrival to the organization you said--a portion of what you wrote, I'm gonna read it here, quote "People would argue that a focus on the building of a nation through a specific lens of color and race only hinders progress. They are the people who often claim to not see race and who replaced the slogan "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter." I'm not one of those people." So let me keep it 100 with you. When I read this, right--and I recognize you work for The Greenlining Institute, and I recognize that, you know, you've been in places where you've practically drove and you've strived for creating equity for your constituents or stakeholders or whoever the people that you're serving are. I'm gonna still say I still don't see a lot of black executives who boldly engage topics of race, like, be it from a position of self-preservation or a lack of personal range, but, you know, I think about Howard Bryant of ESPN and NPR. He was on the show a while back, and he said "To advocate for black people is to put your whole career in jeopardy," and so I'm just really curious, like, when did you make a decision to not only discuss black equity in these, like, theoretical frames, but leverage your own capital and labor to help solve for it and have, you know, in your career, have you had colleagues discourage you from pursuing this type of work?Debra: So I totally understand what Howard Bryant is saying when he says "Black people have to put their career in jeopardy." No doubt, right? It's the judgment against Michael Jordan that he didn't know political advocacy, but now, you know, a generation later, like, it's fine for LeBron James to do it actually, and, you know, even Steph Curry or Steve Kerr. I mean, they're openly in this space now. So I think it is the times that you live in that affect it. I constantly had people who discouraged me if I wanted to have my career ascend or be eligible for large bonuses. There was a bit of impostor syndrome that, you know, you had to perpetrate. So the people usually who were discouraging of speaking boldly into race and gender and the intersectionality that I survive in were mostly white people, right? And so they were making it clear to me of the risks. Like, "You could do it, Debbie. You can talk about this, you can talk about that, but I'm just gonna tell you what may be the consequences of it." So I think there is some truth for sure to what Howard Bryant is saying. The flip side is so when do you have the courage then to go ahead and put my career on the line? Like, you know, "I don't give an F. Here we go." [both laugh] And this is what's gonna just trip you out, Zach. So the moments that I've been able to do that most boldly was when I was encouraged and had the support of mentors who, you know, the Condy Rices or the Ted Lelands or, you know, I could name two or three people who were mentors who said, "Look, go ahead, speak your truth, and I got your back on this one." So for example, when I was at Stanford--I had been there maybe four or five years, you know, and I had done the first big Nike deal--they had never done a big Nike deal--and got one of the largest campus deals ever. Pepsi, at that time the soda wars were happening in your facility, so we negotiated that. I had negotiated two very high profile coaches contracts. So my credibility on campus was pretty legit, and this new dean of the medical school really wanted to have the orthopedics department sort of be a partner with the athletic department, because think about it. The athletes, you know, at that time, Tiger Woods, John Elway. Like, we had some--and they still have some very high profile athletes there. So I had met with the chief of orthopedics and I was like, "Oh, it was a great meeting." Very white male, very, very white. So I'm code-switching and I'm doing all the things that I do to make sure that he's comfortable, and after that meeting he goes back to the dean and says, you know, "I think she's gonna be a problem," or something to that affect. So then two of our medical doctors who had been doing all of our surgeries--knees, shoulder, elbows--came back, and one who I trusted--we had a very... obviously if you're dealing with young people's bodies and those families, so I tended to be the person who talked to the family and said, "Hey, this is our expert." He came to me and he told me. He said, "So this dean, they have some concerns about the relationship," and I said, "This isn't about the relationship. This is about me. This is this white guy who's not comfortable," and I sat there and I was fuming, and I went to the athletic director and I went to the faculty athletic rep and they were like, "Oh, no. We're going all in," right? But they had to--I probably would not have had I not had their voices behind me, and so we did. We met with the dean, and I asked some very, you know, pointed questions. You know, "Where was this concern coming from?" You know, I had the faith of the coaches, the head coaches, and the faculty athletic rep and, you know, X, Y, and Z, and where was this voice coming from? And he was just sort of, "Well, I kind of heard you--" "Did I say that?" "No, but, you know, it was--" And so I was just like, "I think this is racial. I think it's both racial and gender." Men with influence, this is important to your career that you sign this athletic department and, you know, it was immediately--you know, he was apologetic, and "That's not what I meant," and I was like, "You know, that's fine. I'm just telling you how you're presenting yourself and what that means to me and my career." But, you know, I don't know that I would have stepped out on that branch on my own, you know? I think if I had just walked that my career might have been at risk, but knowing that I had, you know, two very senior people say, "We got you on this," was important, was important. And so the advice that I do tend to give now is that, you know, everybody, a young professional, a mid-year professional, I think everybody should have an advisory council where you have somewhere between three and five people that you have literally asked to be a mentor or who has some sort of credibility and clout who can advise you on when to make these very hard decisions. I've had an advisory council ever since, you know, and it's changed depending on the industry that I'm in--and I tend to have three. I used to have five. And you want an odd number in case there's a tie, you know? [laughs] If you have one say yes and the other say no, you need that third one to say yes or no to break the tie. But then that'll help you temper, you know, your career advice with the steps you need to take when you have to fight the good fight. And I know now that--you know, I don't know where he is in his career, but I guarantee you he will never--he'll think twice, you know, about "Oh, am I doing this because I have some gender bias? Because I have some racial bias?" Like, he had been comfortable in that space and he had done his thing, and he probably had run over a bunch of black people, and he finally ran into somebody who said, "This ain't right," and then had other people sit in the room with me and say, "You're not right," you know? So those moments are, you know, sort of life-changing, but they're done with courage for sure. My voice was quivering. My knees were shaking. But I was like, "I'm going all in. I'm going all in on this one."Zach: And I bet you felt all the better for it after the conversation too.Debra: Oh, absolutely, yeah, and it made the next conversation easier, you know? Once you do it you realize that the house didn't fall in, [laughs] or that your career didn't implode. Now, you know, had it imploded maybe I'd have a different [?], but then, you know, now I'm able to sit in a room and say, "Well, you know, are you sure that's what you mean? You know, I kind of hear--" and "I feel like you have some bias here," and, you know, now I'm that voice for the whole community. I'm like, "Look, you are racial washing. You are equity washing right now, people of color and affordable housing. This is about segregation. Let's call it what it is. They don't want to put affordable housing on [?] in Lafayette a lot of white people live there and they want us living in segregated communities. Come on." So I can just speak it now and say, you know, to policy makers or banks or corporations or city hall, say, "Look, I disaggregated this. We have disaggregated this. Here is the bias that still lives. What are you gonna do?" And "Here's how we're gonna help you do it." So we have a whole framework that we say, "Okay, this is how you dismantle it, and this is how we're gonna build it back up."Zach: I think that work--it's just the work itself is so incredible, because, you know, even if you just look, like, from a historical perspective, right? So like, what, black folks have had the same rights on paper for, like, 54, 56 years, and so I think about the fact that 1. that's not even a whole lifetime, right, but then on top of that, like, because of that fact, Gen X is, like, the first generation of people who were born into this country with all of their rights, and really even millennials are--still today, like, a lot of these people, myself included, are first-generation corporate professionals, and I've thought about that side a lot. Like, the fact that a lot of black and brown folks, this is their first time really even being in these spaces, but what I haven't thought about until recently, Debra, is that for white people, this is their first time dealing with black people in these spaces, and when they go home and they talk to their colleagues or their older mentors, they don't really--I mean, they're not going to get a perspective that isn't within a context that is formalized anti-blackness, right? So you think about, like, let's just say if I wasn't a first-generation professional. I talked to my uncle. He can give me context on just working in majority-white spaces, he could do that, but if I was white and I'm dealing with you in this space and I go and talk to my uncle, he's not gonna--he very well likely is not gonna have anything to teach me or tell me about, like "Oh, well, this is how you need to be self-aware, and this is how these cultures work," you know? So I find that really curious, and you kind of--you answered one of my questions, but I want to ask this one though, 'cause you kind of touched on it a little bit. What does it look like, right, to build relationships across the various types of circles that you have to engage in? I think about the fact that when you're talking about policy and you're talking about shifting and creating systemic change, like, you have--I would imagine there's some grassroots folks that you have to engage and endear, but then there's also corporate entities who influence the actual policies, right? Like, I would imagine you're talking to some billionaires, but then you're also having conversations with activists, and you're also talking to folks in the government. Like, what does it look like to manage that wide array of philosophies, motivations and personalities? Like, how does that practically show up?Debra: Hm. I do think there has to be this consistency in philosophy. Like, you have to really be grounded in your values, because once people start challenging you, right--so if you truly believe that there's systemic racism, and not just in the policy but in the cultural diatribe of "Pull yourself up from the bootstraps. Poor people are poor because they're lazy." Like, that's a whole capitalistic trope, and if you want to really dismantle the conversation, then you have to have clarity that that is what's happening, because it is so easy to get on the "You can make money if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps." You know, the Christian, Protestant work ethic. Look, that is a construct to keep the segregation as status quo. So when you're, you know, either the corporate office or even the Capitol, you start to have this conversation about "Where are your values?" So if a person is leading with "I believe you can pull yourself up from the bootstraps," I know that they have completely--they have such a long way to go before they can even have a conversation about racial equity. Like, that foundational conversation, so I start there. I start there. So, you know, let's say--even now. So if you're a digital [?] and you've been sort of, you know, raised that you probably, you know, think "Okay, I have all these online tools, and [?] are non-biased." Okay, let's just disaggregate that. Right now there's more loans that are--let's just say your car loan, right, or your home loan, it used to be about 4-5% done online. It's darn near 35% online now. And that information shows that there is so much racial bias. Black and brown people pay 100 to 200 [?] points more. Their loan interests are higher. So the algorithm, which has been written by white men who are in that space, that algorithm has bias. "No, it's neutral." "No, it's based on zip code. It's based on spending habits. It's based on--" You know, 'cause now they have all this big data tracking you. All of that is racially biased because it's founded in this language of "If you work hard and you get educated, then you deserve it."Zach: Yeah, this idea of meritocracy.Debra: And that is the racial construct. So we are now having this conversation about "Okay, what does wealth mean?" Okay, wealth. You know, mostly we think, "What's in my bank account? I have a house." Wealth is "I have the freedom to take a vacation. I have the ability to take a week off if my family is sick. I have the ability to cover a bill if it's, you know, a health bill, an automobile breakdown or a home thing." Like, that is wealth. So if you say--and people say, "Oh, yeah. Everybody should have the right to do that." "You should have the right to be able to visit family," or "You should have the right to be able--" Okay, so then you say "What does that policy look like to allow us to do that?" So I don't really actually have to talk race. I don't. I need to talk about a culture, a narrative. Like, we have to take command of a narrative, which is coming. This whole political race, presidential race, pivoted on South Carolina and black folk voting. Like, change the landscape. And for the first time, you know, Ta-Nehisi Coates testified with Danny Glover around reparations. Like, people are willing to say, "Wait, what is this?" And we have video now of police abuse, you know, and we're unpacking the criminal justice system. Like, there's an opportunity for us to walk into this space, which at the end of the day will affect your corporate life and will allow you to show up authentically, and all the data shows that a business decision made with diverse voices in the room, diverse ethnicities in the room, are going to get you better business decisions. So I can even talk to you on--if you just want to talk pure capitalism, like, "Hey, this system that, you know, your white boys built is breaking down, so you at least gotta admit you gotta consider another system." [laughs] Like, you gotta figure out, just even from an economic basis, that what we have now is not going to persist. It's just--it's not. It's collapsing on itself, and now, you know, we have--and it might happen in a generation, that we're going to create a new landscape of what wealth and economic opportunity looks like.Zach: I mean... you know, typically we do sound effects during the show. Like, right here I just want to drop, like, a Flex bomb. Boooooom. Sound Man, he's gonna put it in this. Put it in right here. Boom. I mean, it's just incredible. You're absolutely right, and I'm really curious, like, kind of continuing along the last part that you said, you know, in January you wrote something called "The Many Reasons to Impeach Trump," right?Debra: The many. [laughs] Not the three they landed on.Zach: Yeah. Not the couple. Not the few. The many. [laughs] And you wrote, "For communities of color, Trump has long since violated our public trust, and we know that a multitude of possible articles were excluded." So, you know, we're in an election year, right? Like, if Trump is elected for a second term, how do you anticipate Trump's policies practically impacting the efforts of The Greenlining Institute's goals? Debra: Actually, the Trump administration has emboldened the political conversation. We are in more demand now because of the contrast. Before there wasn't as much contrast. It was everybody was kind of in the grey. We were kind of all getting along.Zach: We got a black president. There's no more racism.Debra: Right. You know, we had arrived, and now the contrast is so stark that, you know, everybody kind of knows "This doesn't feel right." And so it's like, "So what does right feel like?" And we feel like we need to occupy that space of "Okay, here is what, you know, racial equality looks like. Here is what right feels like, and let's redefine--" He's offering you a model. This is what the model looks like. "I talk crazy. I put down whoever I feel like putting down. It always is racialized. I'm a model. Look at me. I'm an economic model." And understand, it is an economic model. He does not stand on any values. He does not stand on any religious--it's, like, transactional. "Here's how much." "I just got a couple billion dollars from Israel. I just got a billion here, a billion there." That's the model. So what do you offer in contrast to that economic model, right? And so I get that, okay, there's this hardcore 38, 40% that's like, "Yes, I believe that economic model," and then there's the "Okay, we want to be a kinder, gentler kind of space," that I feel like Biden's kind of walking into, but at some point you're gonna have to have a conversation about what is that? What is wealth? What is community wealth? What does economic wealth look like? 'Cause he's offering you a model, you know, and it just happens to be this very racialized model, but man, we're comfortable with that. Let me just say we're comfortable with that racialized model, and it's just--Zach: And we have been, right?Debra: Yeah, and in the absence of it I'm scared. It's like, "Wait, but I understand that one. I can be a poor white--"Zach: "I get this though."Debra: Yeah. "I'm a poor white person and I'm voting against my own interests because I believe if I pull myself up by the bootstraps," and I'm like, "No. You've been disenfranchised."Zach: For multiple generations.Debra: And you're still voting for your guy. So I think that, you know, the contrast is what's allowing our work to actually, like, accelerate. We have so much work that we cannot even get to. Like, right before this meeting we were triaging which--and I was working with my health equity person--which health equity bills could we support with our limited amount of energy and resources that we have? Because we are prioritizing how much work there is to do. There is just so much work to do, yeah. So in terms of framing what happens to our goals, I think, you know, we stay very--we're okay, we're solid in our goals. The work has just been multiplied and amplified.Zach: That's a blessing. And, you know, what I'm hearing also--and something that we don't discuss enough, again, when we talk about, like, really creating and driving for equity, we're talking about, like, really shifting and engaging systems. Like, a lot of times, like, these conversations, they start and stop at individuals, and, like, then we get lost in, like, the distraction of intentions. It's like, "Okay," and, you know, if bias are conscious or unconscious. We don't talk about impact. We don't talk about, again, like, the models by which these things are really, like, placed in, and how they drive inequity and disenfranchisement, so that's incredible. We're coming up close to the end of the interview. I want to give you a little bit of space to talk a little bit more about The Greenlining Institute, what you're excited about over the next, like, you know, let's say over the next year, and then I'd like to give you some space to just, like, any shout-outs or parting words you got for us.Debra: Oh, okay. [laughs] So the next year there is a deep conversation happening nationally about readdressing segregation, that if we continue to live in segregated communities in that, you know, what do they say, on any given Sunday we're the most segregated country in the world. There's a deep conversation about that and about community wealth, and I'm seeing both in the academy, where, you know, a lot of research is being done, to the policy makers, to bankers. There's a conversation about now how do we really address supportability, homelessness, because they're all intertwined. Like, you can't have a conversation about affordable housing without talking about health equities and social determinants of health, and you can't talk about that without talking about access to broadband, technology, that's moving so quickly, but almost everything--I don't know about you, but I don't know the last time I went to a bank. I do it all online.Zach: My bank is on my phone, yeah, and just to that point, like, I think about--so I have the privilege of having a decent-paying job, right, so I don't have issues with, like, using my data. I have unlimited data. I don't have issues with my Wi-Fi most of the time, and if I do have issues, then I have the privilege of picking up a phone, demanding someone come and fix this so I can get back to going and doing it. [laughs] But when you talk about this next generation of work, and, like, we talk about the workforce of the future and we talk about this digital age, there continues to be studies showing that black and brown communities, economically-distressed communities, are gonna be left out of this age because we don't have the access to enter, right?Debra: Yeah. So we have technology equity in our shop, and one of our biggest campaigns right now is Broadband for All, and then another big pillar for us is algorithm bias, and that cuts across not just financial institutions but medical bias in the algorithms that are, you know, based on research on cancer. Well, guess what that research was done around. You know, middle-class white families. So, you know, the next 12 months, I think this conversation is going to start to coalesce. There are going to be some common themes on how we can change the narrative on an economic sort of wealth, redefinition of wealth. I think that's really coming in the short term. I think the presidential outcome in November will also lay the ground for sort of that next level of work that's happening. So, you know, 12 months, we're running hard for sure, grinding, and then we'll see if, Heaven forbid, Trump gets reelected or not, because that will require some activism. I think we are all--we're gonna have to be that generation that really, you know, takes to the streets, you know, walks on the Capitol, boycotts, because if nothing else, you know, you can imagine if we all decided one day to pull our money out of the banks... Zach: Whoo...Debra: That's trillions of dollars. That's trillions of dollars.Zach: Yeah.Debra: Yeah, and so we might have--the activism may have to become real in the next 12 to 18 months if Trump is reelected. If not, I do think that the conversation, there's gonna be some--there will still be a conversation about "Okay, what does affordability look like?" 'Cause the homelessness is not going away. You know, we're one of the wealthiest states and we are so troubled by it. So I think that that conversation will continue, and we might as well grab hold of what we think wealth looks like. And like I said, it's the freedom to do a lot of things that you otherwise couldn't do. Call up your cable man or your repair man. [laughs] Yeah, and I actually think that's gonna then build community, right, in that if I know my mom is taken care of or my dad can retire comfortably, or my daughter, who does not have the American dream of buying a house--like, that's not... she's like, "What?"Zach: Definitely not in California. No way.Debra: Well, it's not even a part of the dream, right? She's more aspirational. "Maybe starting my own company or, you know, traveling globally." And I was like, "Wow," because that reality is not there for her. So to buy a home, it's not aspirational because it's not achievable.Zach: Well, and when you think about, like--I 100% hear you. The reason why I reacted when you said pull out the money from the banks was like, you know, this is not, like, "It's a Wonderful Life," right? Like, you know, nobody's gonna be like, "Well, your money's at Ted's house, at Bill's house." Like, no. The money--if that was the type of protest, if that happened, like, oh, my gosh. I mean, we gotta have you back on and just talk about, like, even the concept of protest, because--anyway, this has been a profound conversation, Debra. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having intentional, authentic, transparent conversations every day. Again, I really want to emphasize, what I really enjoyed about this conversation and what I really hope our listeners are grasping and understanding is that shifting and creating equity and really having authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion has to involve engaging and tackling systems, y'all. If we're not talking about engaging systems, we're not doing the work. Right? So I know a lot of us, there are people who listen to this show who are, like, diversity, equity and inclusion consultants, and there are people who listen in who are trying to figure out and trying to get the secret sauce on, like, this next generation, the workforce of the future. Like, y'all, if we're not willing to tackle and dismantle, or rebuild and, like, really think about these systems that are in play, we're not making change, y'all. Look, you can check us out on social media. @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then look, we're all over Al Gore's internet, right? For those of us who are blessed to have digital access, you just type in Living Corporate on Google and we'll pop up, but we have all of the different domains, okay? So let me just rattle them off real fast, okay? You've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, okay, but we have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, all right? Now, we're all over the place, and again, we're coming at y'all every week with this stuff. Today was a super dope conversation with the new CEO, Debra Gore-Mann, of The Greenlining Institute, a policy, research, organizing and leadership institute working for racial and economic justice. Make sure y'all check out the information in the show notes. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of sitting down to chat with Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. in an episode themed around discussing emotional labor. She and Zach touch on the concept of self-care, and Dr. Gassam shares a few ways she believes that organizations, aspirational allies, and leaders can help ease the emotional labor lift for black and brown folks in majority-white spaces.Connect with Janice on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Check out her articles on Forbes!Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, we're here. We're back. We're having conversations, you know, that amplify the voices of black and brown people at work, and we do that through what? Now, I'm talking to y'all like this is a live podcast, but this is the part where you would say "by having authentic available transparent conversations with black and brown educators, executives, entrepreneurs, influencers, creatives, activists, and non-melanated or lower-melanted allies," right? People who are advocates of inclusive, diverse, and equitable spaces, and so we do that, right? Like, we have these conversations--honestly, I feel like every time we come on here we have a great guest, and today, today is no different. Today we have Dr. Janice Gassam. Now, listen, Dr. Gassam is a diversity and inclusion consultant and founder of BWG Business Solutions LLC, a company focused on creating strategies to foster an equitable workplace. Gassam is a professor at the Sacred Heart University, teaching courses in diversity and inclusion, performance management, data analytics, and employee engagement. Now, look, let me just go ahead and give y'all some stats, okay? Just real quick so y'all know, 'cause, you know, this is the thing. You know, we're gonna talk about this in the interviewer, but sometimes, you know, folks kind of look at these platforms--and Living Corporate is fairly unique, but they look at this stuff like, "Oh, this is just, you know, passionate stuff," quote-unquote, and it gets dismissed. No, no, no. Dr. Gassam has bonafides, okay? So she has a Ph.D. in organizational psychology, a TedX speaker, and she's authored over 100--listen, yo, 100. 100. Hold on, they're not hearing me. ONE HUNDRED articles. Now, you might say, "Articles on what? Articles on Lipstick Alley?" No. "Articles on Shade Room?" No. Articles on Forbes, what you talking about? [Flex bomb sfx] Okay? She's out here. She's making moves, okay? And listen, she has a competent communicator certificate from Toastmasters International. So not the local spot, okay? Catalyst certification in unconscious bias awareness, has spoken for Yale, H&M, and various other conferences and universities, and she's taught undergraduate and graduate courses in employee engagement, performance management, diversity and inclusion, amongst others. Dr. Gassam, how are you doing? Like, I just gotta--hold on, I gotta at least give you a cheer or something. [applause sfx]Janice: [laughs] Thank you so much, Zach. That was a really nice intro. You made me sound so important, but thank you so much for having me, and it's a pleasure to be here, and I'm really excited to get into this conversation. How are you today?Zach: You know what? I'm doing really, really well. I'm in New Orleans. My cousin-in-law is getting married.Janice: Congraulations. That's fun.Zach: Absolutely.Janice: Are you gonna go to Cafe Du Monde?Zach: Ooh, I might. I may.Janice: Yeah, you gotta have--you gotta. I think it's 24 hours, but the lines are usually pretty long. But if you have a chance, if you're there for a little bit of a time, that would be fun. Wow, that sounds really nice.Zach: It should be great, you know? And this is the challenge, right? So when you get older--so I'm just now hitting 30, right? So you get older and, you know, you can't just kind of eat and do some of the things that, you know... your body, your body sends you a memo later like, "Ayo, I know you tried to be cute earlier, but it ain't happening now. You've got an appointment now, so what's up? And now your knee hurting and you don't know why," right? But no, I'm doing great. How are you doing? What do you got going on these days?Janice: I'm doing good. I aim for seven hours of sleep, seven to eight hours, so I got my seven hours. Today I have to do--I'm writing some articles. I did some Forbes interviews, so I have to just transcribe them, and then I have grading of course. So that should be--should keep me pretty busy.Zach: Okay. Okay, all right. Now, look, it can't just slay by itself. You gotta put in the work, and you're doing it, so we appreciate you. So thank you.Janice: Thank you so much.Zach: No, no doubt. So look, let's get into it. You've established a deep brand in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Your profile--at what point in your life did you realize that this was the work that you wanted to do and why? Like, what led you to come to this point and create this brand for yourself?Janice: Well, I guess sometimes people ask me this question, and I think it's a combination of the fact that I come from a--my parents come from Cameroon, which is a West African country, so I--throughout growing up I kind of grappled with not being Cameroonian enough, you know? Because I don't speak the language, I don't cook Cameroonian food, and I didn't really know a lot about the culture growing up because I was born and raised here in America. So I think that that combination of the different culture, as well as, you know, growing up in predominantly white neighborhoods and going to predominantly white schools and also just recognizing my blackness, it's almost like--DuBois talked about, in "The Souls of Black Folks," a double consciousness that black people in America experience where it's kind of like they have to grapple with their own blackness as well as being a black person in a white America, and I think it was, like, a triple consciousness. So trying to figure out where--you know, where I fit in the black sort of scope as well as, you know, trying to assimilate to white America, and I did a lot of that in school, you know, so that I would be accepted and then also embracing my culture and being true to my culture and that aspect of my background. So I think that that combination always made me really interested in diversity and inclusion. In 2011 I started a YouTube channel where I talked primarily on race and quote-unquote black issues and things that I felt were relevant to the black community, and I've kind of scaled back, and I haven't made a video probably in six or seven months, but I still, you know, post videos on there here and there, and I was able to cultivate a pretty loyal and strong audience. I had about 20,000 subscribers on that channel, but-- [ow sfx] I actually moved my focus to corporate diversity and inclusion because I saw that there were holes in the system when I would work in different companies. I noticed certain things. So I guess my focus moved from sort of these issues that are relevant to black America to "How do I fix these issues in corporate America?" Zach: And it's just such critical work. First of all, let me take a step back. So I think it's interesting when you think about, like, just black identity, underrepresented identity, and just all of the nuance of that, just of your own identity period. Like, let's just--not talking about within the context of any other social framework, but you have yourself, your own lived experience, which is complex, and then you're placing that within a context of being, like, in a white majority, and then--I don't know. It's just a lot, and I wonder--and it kind of leads me to my next question. When you talk about, like--when we talk about this space in diversity and inclusion and we talk about really kind of taking these conversations that black America is having--and I'm not trying to exclude other non-white spaces, but I'ma speak to black America because that's the experience that I live in. So historically over the past, I don't know, what, 100 and something odd years, like, we've had thought leaders talk about and have these internal conversations or in-house conversations about what it means to be black, and then of course we've had--you know, we're knocking on the door today, but there have been people who knocked on the door before us having these conversations and bringing these discussions to light. I guess my question is, as I look at your profile, do you ever see or feel a sense of being in, like, two worlds at once? And these two worlds that I'm talking about is one I'm seeing, like, a bit of--I'm seeing, like, one camp when it comes to this corporate D&I space, this corporatized D&I space that is very heady. It's very academic, and it's largely white and institutionalized a bit. And then there's this other group that's continuing to grow and build that is more activist in its function and more driven and founded by themes of justice, and also driven by themes of lived experience. When I look at your profile, and even what you just shared about you being a first-generation American and you being a first-generation professional, like, a first-generation in a variety of ways, but also having this academic background, do you see yourself straddling both of these worlds? Do you see--I mean, I'm kind of making an assumption that you even agree with my analysis of, like, corporate D&I. I'm just curious about, like, how do you see yourself as you operate in this space?Janice: No, absolutely. I have a close friend who, you know, I've been doing these diversity dinner dialogues in New York City, which is just, like, a free workshop where anyone who has an interest in diversity and inclusion can come. You know, we talk about a specific topic. Papa John's sponsors it, and in doing that I actually got to know a girl who has become one of my close friends. Her name is Donna. She's getting her Ph.D. in psychology, but her dissertation focuses on corporate diversity training, and she's looking specifically at how receptive people are when the trainer is not a diverse person, so is a white person or seemingly a white person. And going back to your point, I do agree. I think that unfortunately, any time you're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, I think people are more receptive to the message when it comes from a white person. That's just unfortunately, you know, what it is. If I'm talking about, or you're talking about your lived experience, I think that people put more stock in when a white person says those things or finally realizes that there are inequities that are taking place. I do commend--not to take anything away from white people who are in this space who are using their privilege to amplify the voices of people of color, but I just think it's something that's important to note, that in this space I do think that there is sort of, like, a hierarchy, and I think that, you know, unfortunately black people are at the bottom of that hierarchy, and I think that when it comes to issues that are relevant, specifically to black people and people of color, those get prioritized last, and I think that that's unfortunate. People don't understand that you can be a marginalized group but still be racist. So I think that it's important to understand those sorts of things. I don't know, I guess, what the solution is, but it's just something that I've noticed.Zach: No, straight up. And it's interesting too. So your point around, like, hierarchy, 'cause even as I talk to other diversity, equity and inclusion professionals, right? Like, something that people will jump out [?] any time we have these conversations. It's almost like a point of pride or, like, particular insight when people say something like, you know, "Diversity and inclusion just isn't about ethnicity and race," and I'm like, "Well, wait... okay, it's not, you're right. Can we also acknowledge that ethnicity and race have played a critical part in, like, America's formation and policy structure and even today. I'm not saying that the other diversity [?] don't exist, but it's like people are so excited to, like, get away from that and then talk about "It's about diversity of education, and geography, and hair color," and--Janice: [laughing] "Diversity of thought."Zach: My gosh, diversity of thought. You know, I keep--you know, look, the government, they made--I'm serious, they made crack and diversity of thought in the same lab. They did. It's crazy. It's nuts.Janice: Right? That's a great way to put it, yeah. I think it's really easy to, like, divert the conversation, and that's why I think I like to do these diversity dinners and focus specifically on an issue, because I think when you're talking about, for example, allyship, allyship, that conversation--people think of allies more so as allies in that LGBTQIA+ community, but any marginalized group needs allies, and I think that when you don't focus specifically on race or ethnicity and you bring up the diversity conversation, I think people like to divert it and say, "Well, you know, you also have to be inclusive to this group and that group and that group," and I totally agree and I understand that, but I think that there are very unique challenges that people of color, and particularly black people, in this country face in that the main way that people are able to see that we are black is our skin color, you know? If you're part of a marginalized group where your identity is invisible, I do think that your experiences are vastly different from an individual like me or like you who our skin color is apparent to anyone that looks at us, and I don't think that it's--you know, I guess I'm not the type of person that likes to say who is struggling the most or likes to play the oppression politics, but I do think that that is an important point that needs to be acknowledged. Just because you're part of a marginalized group doesn't mean that our experiences are the same, you know? And I think that sometimes people like to say, "Well, look, I'm oppressed too. I have this particular invisible identity," and it's like--we might have similar experiences, but we also have vastly different experiences, and I think that sometimes that's overlooked. Even when I come in and do these corporate workshops related to diversity, I am always encouraged to not focus on race. And I recently had a consultation--so when people reach out to me to do a workshop, they'll schedule a call and then kind of figure out what I'm about, what topics I can speak to for their corporate audience, and I was specifically told recently to not victimize people in the workshop. So, you know, people don't want to be victimized. People don't want to feel like the finger is pointed at them. And sometimes people don't really want to directly address race, and I recognize and understand that. Before I was kind of, like--I didn't really quite understand that, but I know that, you know, when you come into a room and say to somebody, "Because you're part of this race, you have privilege, and your people have systematically and systemically oppressed," you know, based on the history. People shut down, and there's resistance, so it's almost like you kind of have to--I don't have any kids, but I know that sometimes when you have kids and you don't want to eat the food or take the medicine, you can kind of put sugar around it with the medicine and give that to them. So it's almost [?] diversity and inclusion. You have to give the sugar with the hard, I guess, lessons and the hard realities, because people get very defensive.Zach: And so then--so let's talk about that a little bit more. You shared the idea that folks will tell you, "Hey, just don't talk about it." Like, how do those requests come about? How do they frame it?Janice: Sometimes they're very great, [laughs] and other times it's more subtle, where I give them a list of topics--and of course, you know, I've been on YouTube since 2011 just talking in front of my camera about quote-unquote black issues and how--you know, racial dynamics, so it's a topic I feel very passionately about, but when I give them my list of topics that range from, you know, micro-aggressions to how to have conversations about race in the workplace to how to get the ROI of your diversity programs to emotional intelligence, what I've noticed is typically people like me to talk about emotional intelligence versus--and I think emotional intelligence is definitely an important topic, but it's not something that's difficult to digest, you know? It's not something that's gonna make people feel uncomfortable. So it's kind of like, "These are my lists of topics," and just in choosing the topics, you know, they'll reach out to me and say, "Could you do a talk on this?" or "Could you do a workshop on this?" And it's never been some of those more difficult-to-swallow concepts like race, because--and I understand, you know, you want your audience to be receptive to it, and unfortunately people really aren't receptive to conversations about race unless it's a white person giving it. A good example of that is--I showed my students the Chelsea Handler documentary that just came out on white privilege. I think that's what it's called, "Me and My White Privilege" or something like that. [Editor's note: it's "Hello Privilege. It's Me, Chelsea"] So I showed it to them. There was a particular clip where Chelsea interviewed some conservative women from Orange County, California, and they were saying people of color get privileges like school admissions, like jobs. They were referring to this myth that affirmative action is reverse racism. And so, you know, I showed them that clip, and then I spoke to how all of the things that were said in that clip were just factually incorrect, and affirmative action wasn't created to give unfair advantages to people of color and women who are not qualified, and also white women benefit the most from affirmative action. So I think that just watching that whole documentary, the reception has been interesting, because I think if someone like Kevin Hart or Dave Chappelle or, you know, any other comedian did a documentary on race, I don't think it would have gotten the same reception as Chelsea Handler's documentary, and I think that that's unfortunate.Zach: It's interesting too, because I was having a conversation with some majority folks, right? And they were talking about the documentary, and they said, "Well, you know, I don't know. Part of me is like, you know, 'Is this just another schtick?' Like, 'Is she even really being serious and authentic,' right? Like, how honest is this really?'" But then also there were people who watched it and really, you know, thought it was just groundbreaking and courageous and innovative and all of these other words. [laughing]Janice: It's interesting. I thought it was--it was just interesting. I think that when she was speaking with the women in that particular scene who were saying these things, she didn't really dispel what they were saying. They were like, "Well, you know, everyone has privilege, and it's not just white people," and Chelsea wasn't--I think she could have been more direct with dispelling their myths, and it's just incorrect to say that black people are getting--people of color are being treated, you know, better than white people in this country, 'cause that's just not true.Zach: That's just factually false.Janice: [?] You look at the rate of arrests. You look at who gets jailed, the amount of time that's given. If you just look at our criminal justice system, it's so apparent. You know, and what is her name? I'm forgetting the author's name, but she specifically talks about looking at the demographics of people who were pulled over and arrested driving on the New Jersey turnpike where they did this extensive study, and they found that, of course, the majority of those people were black and brown men. So just, like, it's obvious that those women are living in, like, their own delusion, and I think that maybe if I was sort of encapsulated in my own white America and I didn't interact--'cause obviously I don't interact really with anyone of color--I would probably have those same falsehoods as well, and one thing that I try to remind myself is that I can't really fault white people for not caring about certain issues because, in their minds, they think that it's not relevant to them. So we're--you know, humans are self-motivated, and we focus on things that we think will impact us. I think the fallacy is thinking that it doesn't affect them, because if Trump is spewing this rhetoric, or if our politicians are doing something that negatively impacts [one group?] people, ultimately that's gonna impact you in other ways. So I think that, like, there's this false idea that diversity and inclusion doesn't impact you or you're not--you don't have to be involved in the conversation, but I think that--you know, that famous quote that somebody said where it's like, "If one group is oppressed, we're all oppressed." You know, "If one group is not free, none of us are free." So I think that it's that. It's just that these women in that clip didn't understand how, like, we're all interconnected.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and there's multiple points of evidence that we can look at to talk about just, like, disparity and inequity and disparate treatment for black and brown people juxtaposed to white folks, right? So you have--of course you have prison, just the criminal justice system. You also have, like, health care and treatment. You have access to public transportation. You have just general public school education. You have access to food. So just, like, neighborhoods that are--you know, you have food deserts. Like, those are real things, and they're impacted by race. So 100%. So, Janice, diversity, equity and inclusion is broad, and you talked about earlier that you cover a variety of things. You speak on a variety of things. Can we zoom in on a topic really quick? Let's talk about the emotional labor of black and brown DEI professionals, particularly women, in this, like, diversity, equity, and inclusion space, right? Like, I'd really like to talk about that. Are you down?Janice: Yeah, sure.Zach: Cool. So in the history of the show, you know, I've brought up the concept of emotional labor, but I've just said it. Like, I'll be like, "You know, people don't really consider the emotional labor." And I've talked about it with colleagues at my job. I've talked about it with friends. But, like, can we--but I don't think I've ever taken the time to really explain what emotional labor is, like, as a concept. Would you mind talking a little bit about what you believe--like, what is your definition of emotional labor?Janice: Absolutely. So it's funny you ask this, because at the recent diversity dinner dialogue I had this week there was a diversity professional. He works at a large consulting firm, and he asked what we--he posed the question to everyone who was there, and he said "What do you do for self-care?" Because D&I work is very exhausting, so what do you do as self-care? And, you know, one thing that I realized is that I never really escape it, because I feel, like you said, it's our lived experience, so any time I--and I don't watch TV, but when I open my phone to go onto Instagram, you know, the people that I follow are a lot of these--like, Shaun King, and, like, a lot of these, the [?] show. So people who report on news that's related to black people. So sometimes I just find myself scrolling past stuff, because--especially Shaun King stuff--I don't always have the bandwidth for it, and if I've had a long day and I'm just not in the mood for my day to be ruined, I have to scroll past stuff. But also, like, for me, I think fellowship is a really important part of just dealing with the emotional labor of it. I think fellowship with my fellow black and brown people, it just helps me, 'cause it's almost like when you're around people--when you're around the majority, it's almost like--I saw a picture where someone had, like, a mask on--a black person, it's like when they go into corporate America you put your mask on, and then when you get home you take your mask off. So I feel like when you're around your friends you're free to take the mask off and just, you know, explain what you're going through at work, and my friends and I, we talk a lot about our work experiences, and I--you know, my experience is a little different since I'm not necessarily in corporate America. I'm in academia and then I do consulting. And academia has its same politics, but it's a little bit different, but listening to--you know, I have a close friend who works at Uber, and just listening to all of my different friends' experiences, I'm just like, "Wow. This is really, really interesting," and, I mean, in a weird way, the fellowship helps me to sort of cope with some of these--the work that I do. So that really helps me. And also--it sounds weird, but I'm really big with sleep. [laughs] I always try to get my 7-8 hours, 'cause I think that--and there's research that indicates that when we're under stress, when we're not getting enough rest, we're sick, we're more likely to--our thinking isn't as sharp and as crisp, and interestingly people are more likely to fall into discriminatory behaviors when they're sleep-deprived. So I always try to make sure that I'm in--or, you know, as much as I can that I'm getting enough sleep, I'm getting enough rest, I'm going to the gym, even when I don't feel like going, to make sure that I'm treating my body as well, because there is this idea that, you know, in our society, you're not productive unless you're busy, and I really try to emphasize the importance of sleep and rest, especially when you're doing something as taxing as diversity and inclusion work or just being a person of color in a workplace that--you know, even if your work doesn't relate to diversity and inclusion, that's exhausting in itself. So I think that those are really important for me, sometimes just scrolling past those pages and those things that will bring me more stress, getting rest, and then just the fellowship.Zach: And so then do you think--do you think that the concept of emotional labor is explored enough, like, within, like, diversity and inclusion, and then also, like, as a concept when we talk to companies and clients and other organizations?Janice: I don't. I don't think that it's--and it doesn't really happen as much to me. Sometimes when I'm on a plane and I'm reading a certain book, someone might see something and comment, but I've seen sometimes where D&I professionals are wearing a shirt that makes a really bold statement and someone makes a comment about the shirt, and it's like--it's exhausting because sometimes you're out and you don't want to have a conversation about diversity and inclusion, but somehow it gets to that conversation. So I think that people just assume that because this is something you do for a living or you enjoy doing that you want to talk about it 24/7, and that's not always the case. So I think that it's not something that's explored enough and in enough detail.Zach: And so then, like, you know, what does fatigue look like? Like, you've been in this space for a while. Like, at what points do you realize, like, "Hey, I really need to," you know, engage in what is restorative for you. So you taking a break, you getting off social media, you sleeping a little bit more. Like, what are the signs of fatigue for you personally?Janice: I think when I have an opportunity that's presented to me, and instead of being excited I just--I'm already anticipating how tired I will be after the opportunity, that's a good indication that maybe I need to sort of slow down. And yeah, I think that would be the main thing for me. Sometimes people will reach out and say, "Oh, can you do this?" And it's an amazing opportunity, but I'm just like, "Oh, I have so much on my plate," so I can't--in my mind I'm like, "I can [?] do it," you know? And it's just--for me it's just sometimes I need to learn, one thing I need to learn is--Shonda Rhimes has a book called The Year of Yes. I need a Year of No, and I need to just--sometimes it's really powerful to just say no to things that you know will leave you drained and overwhelmed, even if you feel like it's for a good cause or it's for the greater good or it will benefit the person or the group that is getting the service. I think sometimes just saying no or just saying "No, not right now," is really helpful for me. So that's an indicator to me of when I've kind of, like, reached my point of exhaustion.Zach: That's just a really good point. I think, especially when you talk about these types of spaces, right, you know, people will reach out to you for a variety of things, and 99.9% of them are gonna be good, but--and so because they're genuinely good things, it's hard to say no, but it's like, "Man, I'm only one person." Right? Like, I don't have an inexhaustible amount of energy. I have to create some space for myself. Let's talk about this, and I really want to get back to something that you said earlier in the conversation. So you said sometimes people reach out to you asking you to talk about specific things. Are there ever any moments where you consider your profile, right? When you consider, like, the work that you've done in academia as well as your personal life and your journey and your lived experience? Do you ever battle feelings or insecurities around being tokenized?Janice: I don't. It's interesting. That's not something I--I think that even if you're choosing me for this particular role or you're asking me to do this because you want to check some boxes, I'm still gonna achieve the ultimate goal. So I think that I don't really look at the vehicle. I just look at, you know, "Am I able to accomplish or achieve this goal?" I recognize and understand that there is a possibility that maybe the powers that be saw what I look like and said, "Okay, we need this person so we look like we're being diverse and inclusive," but ultimately getting the opportunity to sort of try to push the needle and move the needle forward when it comes to building a more inclusive culture is fine with me. So it doesn't matter to me if the goal was to check some boxes, because I'm still gonna go in there and do what I really need to do and what I want to do. So I try not to think about that, because I think for me, if I started thinking about that, it would be, like, a never-ending rabbit hole of, like, "Are they really choosing me for my credentials, or did they see that I'm a black female and they want to check some boxes?" So I try not to think like that, because ultimately I'm like, "I'm gonna come in here and do what I'm supposed to do," and I try to just come in and do an amazing job so that even if they were trying to--even if the purpose was just to check the boxes, they'll see, like, what a strong, you know, worker I am, or what a strong consultant I am, and they'll understand that they made the right decision.Zach: I hear that, and what I'm taking away from that also is just, like, you know, people can choose you for whatever motivations they have. It's about how you decide to show up in that moment, right? Janice: Exactly.Zach: Yeah. It's interesting, you know? Like, transparently, I have those--it's something I struggle with, right? I struggle with the idea of "Man, like, why would you choose me?" But then, to your point, I know for me, like, I have a fairly specific brand, so when I show up, like, there's a story that I'm gonna tell. There's a way that I'm going to move. There's a way that I'm going to work. And, you know, we'll see how comfortable you are with that, and if you're not comfortable with that and you decide you want something else then, you know, that's fine too, but I have to show up and deliver on who I am and then, you know, let the chips fall where they may after that. Okay, so we're talking about emotional labor. We're talking about self-care and kind of getting those energies back. I think something that's, like, really understated as well at work for diversity and inclusion professionals, and just black and brown people in general, right? So even if you're not explicitly in diversity and inclusion, like, a space, but just at work, is the emotional labor of just being other in majority-white spaces, right? So, like, I'm curious, what are ways that you believe that organizations and that aspirational allies as well as just leaders can help ease the emotional labor lift for black and brown folks in these spaces?Janice: I think it goes back to organizations really trying to make us feel included. In my university--and I teach in a business department [where] there's no other black females. There's other women of color, a few who are of Indian--one who's of Indian descent and one who is Chinese, but they're--we're, like, one of few, and then at the university, I don't know how many tenured black professors there are, but there are very, very few. So I think that one thing that organizations can do is just try to take additional steps to make people who are the only feel included. So I'll give you an example. I was working at a university in New York City that when I started they said that they needed more diversity and inclusion. They needed the faculty to look like the student body. And this is a public school in New York City. It's part of a large university system. So most of the students come from different backgrounds, you know? There's lots of black and brown students, and the professors just didn't reflect that. One student told me that I was the first--a black student told me that I was the first black professor he's ever had. So, you know, I got there and they said, "Oh, we really want diversity," and then they didn't do anything to make me feel included. It was like they [tired?] me and dropped me off. My office was in--and little micro-aggressive behaviors. I'm no longer there, but I was in the Psychology department at that university, but my office was in the English department. There was no name on my office. And even though I was visiting faculty--so it's kind of, like, not guaranteed that they'll renew your contract--I was teaching more than any other professor in that department. I was also teaching during the winter intersession. So normally you get, like, a month off. I was literally--like, I had a week and a half off, and then January 2nd or 3rd I had to--Zach: You were back at it. Wow.Janice: So, like, I think that the inclusion piece is so important, because companies just look at the diversity on the surface and say, "We don't need a diversity program. We have lots of black people. We have lots of people from Asia. We have lots of this and that," and it's like, "But do they feel included?" That's really the important part. So I think that where companies miss the mark is that inclusion piece. So the university that I'm at now, Sacred Heart University, I think that they've done an amazing job with making me feel included. Even though I'm one of the only, I'm frequently invited--you know, they always have, like, off-campus events for faculty members, and if someone's retiring they have these parties and all of that, and it's just like--the department chair will reach out and say, you know, "Janice, are you gonna come to this?" Or "Would you like to join this committee?" And I just feel like--last year was my first year working there full-time, and they were just so--all of the faculty members, on their own, would come by my office. I'm sure they're like, "Who is this?" I look younger than I am, so people think I'm in my 20s, and I'm 32. So people are like, "Who is this young black girl with these [fauxlocks?] sitting in the office? Like, what?" So they'll come up to me and just say, "Hey, how are you? What's your name?" They'll give me their card, they'll connect with me on LinkedIn, and that's not something that I experienced at this other university that I worked at. So I think that they really made me feel a sense of inclusion, even though I was the only. Literally it was, like, a line of professors [?] where my office used to be. I know I was the only black woman on that floor. I didn't see any other black women. So, you know, just making me feel--including me, inviting me to things, trying to just, you know, check on me. And just really quick, Ernst & Young did a study where they tried to measure belonging that people feel in the workplace. So they developed something called the Belonging Barometer, and what their research found--this was last year that it came out--so what their research found is that the #1 way to make employees feel a sense of belonging is frequent check-ups. So if you are a manager or you're another employee and you come to the office of someone and say, "Hey, how are you? How was your weekend?" And you do this frequently, that is the best way to make employees feel a sense of belonging. So I think that at my university, my colleagues do that a lot, and that's what really makes me feel like--even though I'm the only, they're really making me feel like I'm part of a family.Zach: So first of all, you know, thank you for sharing that. You know, I'm curious. When you were going through the experience at the previous institution, did any of it feel like you were being gaslit a little bit? Like, did you raise any of these concerns? Like, "Hey, you got me all the way over here in this other group," and "Hey, I don't have a name on my door." Like, did you raise any of those things?Janice: No, I didn't, unfortunately, and a part of me felt just so--and I'm sure many of us as people of color feel like this--I honestly was, like, grateful that I had a job, 'cause I hadn't finished my Ph.D. yet. I was grateful I had a job. I was earning more money than I had ever earned in my entire life. I graduated with my Ph.D. when I was 30, so I was literally--most of my life I was in school, so I was used to, you know, not having health insurance. You know, when I moved to New York, I didn't have health insurance. So, you know, all of these things. I was grateful to have benefits, grateful to have a job, grateful to have my own office. That was a new experience for me. So I guess I didn't say anything. Not I guess, I didn't say anything, just because I was so grateful for the opportunity that I was afraid if I pointed these inequities out that that opportunity would be taken away from me. So I know that many times people of color, black people in particular, are in positions where maybe you didn't think you would get this far, and you have opportunities to sort of speak up, but you're worried that, by speaking up, it could jeopardize your job or jeopardize your opportunity, and that's how I felt, so I didn't say anything. I knew that in my mind I wasn't gonna be at that university for a long period of time, so I think that's what kept me going. I was just like, "This is a stepping stone," and ultimately it was, and I left that--I was only there for a year, and they didn't renew my contract, probably because I didn't finish--I hadn't finished my Ph.D., but I knew that it was temporary. Zach: So it's such a real point, right? Because I know there's--I mean, it's for good reason, right? So, like, black and brown folks, we'll get into these positions and we're like--and it's more than we've ever had before. So, like, not comparing--not relative to anyone else, just our own journey. Like, this is a peak, right? Relative to what we've experienced. And so then we're like, "Okay, well, you know, I don't want to say anything because this almost seems too good to be true already, so I don't want to mess this up."Janice: Right, exactly. Imagine if you had a job at, like, Google. Google is--like, you know, who wouldn't want to work at Google? And you're being treated unfairly by your manager or by co-workers and you felt like, "I never imagined being at this company. Let me just keep my mouth [shut]." Which a lot of us do. We're just like, "Let me keep my mouth shut," but Google is a company that I want to be at for a while, so it's like, what do you do? Especially--the easy thing, and, you know, when I hear people giving advice as far as, like, how to advocate for yourself, sometimes I hear people saying, "Just quit," and I think that that's ultimately what's gonna have to happen, but for some people that's not an option. If you're the sole bread-winner in your family and many people are relying on you and you're feeding many mouths, I think quitting sounds nice, but it's not practical, especially if you don't have anything else lined up. You just have to figure out--and then it goes back to the self-care. Because you're experiencing so much stress at work, what are you doing outside of work to sort of mitigate the stress that you're experiencing? And for me, that was one of the hardest years of my life because I had just moved to Connecticut. I was teaching in New York City, so I was commuting--it's only an hour commute on the train, but I was commuting to New York City every single day, and I was also teaching in Long Island, because they were--you know, ultimately they were underpaying me, they were overworking me, and then to supplement that I was so--there was a point in time where I was teaching seven courses, which, you know, anyone who teaches at the university level knows, like, three courses per semester is, like--three or four is, like, a very full courseload. Seven is, like, next level. I was teaching on Saturdays. It was, like, insane, the amount of classes that I was teaching, but my form of self-care was, you know, I was going to the gym a lot, and I was just--you know, a lot of fellowship, meeting up with friends, because, you know, the reality of it was that they were severely--you know, moving from universities, Zach, I was able to increase my salary by $30,000. They were underpaying me, like, a ridiculous amount, you know? And when I brought it up--that's something I did bring up when I was hired. I was like, "Why does my contract say this amount?" And the department chair was like, "Oh, well, you're paid based on a scale." It was a public university. So they base it off your teaching experience, your credentials, and because I didn't have a Ph.D. blah blah blah blah blah. So, you know, I did try to advocate for myself in that sense, but it was just kind of like, "Sorry, this is what you're gonna get paid," and I was just like, "Okay. Well, to supplement this, I'm gonna work at these other universities to get what I think that I deserve." So it was--it was really difficult. I think it's easy to say quit, but for many people quitting is not an option. So I think really going into what you're doing for self-care when you're experiencing this stress is important, and then I think planning your exit strategy. So if it's Google, maybe you want to have a year or two years or three years on your resume, but you know the environment is toxic. I wouldn't say just leave. I would say get that on your resume and build as many connections there as you can, but plan your exit strategy and save up money. If you really think that you have to leave at some point in the near future and you don't know if you'll have a backup job, then just plan, save up money. Make sure you do what you can so that, you know, when that day comes you're ready and it's not just like you made the decision off of a whim.Zach: It's just so true, right? 'Cause I know--I've seen it, and honestly I've done it, right? Like, where I've been in, like, really toxic environments, and I just left, but I left on--I didn't leave on the terms I wanted to leave on, right? So I wasn't prepared, right? I didn't have the financial backing that I wanted to have. You know, I just wasn't in the place that I wanted to be, but I finally just left. And that happens a lot, especially with our generation, right? Like, millennials, you know? 'Cause we'll just kind of bottle--especially what I've seen from black and brown folks is we'll just kind of bottle it up until we can't take it anymore, and then we'll just--you know, we'll leave. We'll just blow up and just quit, right? And you're right, like, that's not a sustainable way to function. I think the other point that you called out is super true, and I think it just really speaks to the different lived experiences of different folks, right, is that you said "Just quit." Like, for me, I'm a big advocate--I'll tell people to quit, right? But it's easy for me to tell people to quit when I'm a black American, my mom--I'm not sending money to my mom, right? Like, I don't have--it's just me and my wife, and my wife works. So it's like, if I quit my job, #1: I know that I could get another job very quickly, and so I'm projecting that on other people. Like, "You're only responsible for yourself," but that's not true. Right? Like, that's just not true. You have people--like, I have a really good friend who she's paying her mom's mortgage, her mom's health care. She's sending money back to her family in Nigeria. Like, she's doing all of these things on her very modest salary, and it's a toxic work environment, but she can't just leave. Janice: Mm-hmm, yeah. You know, sometimes people comment on my social media and they're like, "Why are we trying to change these white institutions? They don't want us there. Why don't we just build our own institutions?" And I'm all for that, but I think the reality of it is every single black and brown person is not going to be working in a black and brown-led institution, so what are we doing for those, you know, people of color who are not in those black-owned businesses? How are we creating an environment for them where that is sustainable? So I think that that's also an important point to look at, just really how are we overcoming, because the reality of it is that's just not what it is right now. You know, every single person is not at a black-owned company.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I know, like, even when Living Corporate started, right, like, a couple of critiques that we got early was "Why are you trying to teach people how to navigate these white spaces as opposed to trying to help people to build their own?" I'm like, "Okay, look. First of all, we can look at the history of America and we can see that there's been historical pushes that black and brown people--" Black folks, we've been creating our own things since antebellum, okay? So we've been building our own churches, our own fraternities, sororities, our own businesses, our own communities, and there's been a consistent whitelash against that. Now, that doesn't mean that we're gonna stop. We don't stop, and black businesses and entrepreneurship continues to grow. However, we also know because of historical inequity--it's just the way that white supremacy and patriarchy are set up--that those institutions will never be as big as Amazon. I won't say never, but it will be a long time before they're as big as an Amazon or a Google or even a Facebook, right? Like, that's just not the way it works, and so--I believe that underrepresented folks helped build this country. It is 100% reasonable and fair to have discussions about what does it look like for us to thrive here. None of these things would exist without us, so it is reasonable--I don't think it's one or the other. I think it's both and, but it's a fine and right discussion and pursuit on what does it look like to thrive in these spaces. Like you said earlier, like, everyone's not gonna be working at a black and brown place. Every black and brown person is not gonna be an entrepreneur, just like every white person isn't an entrepreneur. So, you know, most of us are gonna work for somebody, so waht does it look like when you work for somebody and likely--because again, we're in America--it's likely going to be a majority-owned space. What does it look like for you to be successful there?Janice: Absolutely, yeah. I think that that's--it falls on both, because I think that--and that's probably a whole 'nother conversation, because even marginalized groups hold negative views about their own identities, for example. Like, there's many negative stereotypes that black people ourselves perpetuate, and even if we're leading a company, we may have colorism issues, or we may be [?]. So there's, like--even if you're in a black-owned institution, white supremacy can still be rampant, and I think us understanding that is important too. 'Cause I get those comments sometimes where, you know, people are like, "Why are you trying to do this and do that?" And even with companies--you know, some people have asked me why I allowed or accepted a partnership with Papa John's when the CEO is obviously--the former CEO, I'm sorry, is probably racist, and I said, you know, "If this company is going to try to make amends and is going to try--" And, you know, they've done other initiatives where they're trying to really show that now they're focused on diversity and inclusion. I'm not gonna say no, and I'm not gonna say, "I'll never take your money." They've hired a black woman as their chief diversity officer. They've hired a Ghandian man as their chief branding officer. Shaq is now on their board of directors. The CEO is no longer on the board. So they've been doing things. You know, they donate to HBCUs. So different things that I'm like, "Okay, I can accept that they're trying to fix what it is." But I think that it's tough, because it's like, do we forgive companies where they have many egregious actions that the CEO has committed? Do we forgive them, or do we just move on and just cancel them? I think that that's an important question to think about.Zach: It is, right? But I guess here's my challenge with that. So first of all, like, when you're talking about getting that money from Papa John's, the only thing I was thinking about was [cha-ching sfx]. Like, listen. [laughs] This is my whole thing, right? So I don't think that, like, we really talk about, like, how capitalist America is, right? Like, you need money to survive. Like, you need money to do anything, and so, you know, if you want to say, "Okay, well, I'm not gonna take this money from Papa John's," okay, so are you gonna take this money from Johnson & Johnson? Are you gonna take this money from--[laughs] like, all of America was built on slavery and oppression and exploitation of black and brown people, and people of color as well. So, like, including Asian-Americans too. So, like, we wouldn't have any of this. So, like, if you wanted to, like, again--I don't like saying the term "slippery slope," but my whole thing is, for me, if you're going to give me the bag--if you give me the bag, as long as you know that I'm not gonna adjust my message and you're not asking me to adjust my message or expecting me to adjust my message, I'ma take the bag, right? Now, there are certain groups, you know, that I'm not taking the bag from. Like, I've had people--you know what? This is, like, breaking news. I haven't told anybody on Living Corporate this. So, you know, someone actually hit me up and wanted to get Candace Owens on here, and I said--Janice: Really?Zach: Yeah, and I said no.Janice: Wow. That's interesting.Zach: I said no. I said, "You big buggin'."Janice: [?] Living Corporate. Interesting. What are your thoughts on--I have my own thoughts [both laughing] on her. I watched her--did you watch the Revolt summit that she was [in?]Zach: I did. I did see her up there being loud and wrong.Janice: Yes, yeah. But one thing that I didn't like was I think when you bring people with opposing views, you have to allow them the opportunity to at least speak, even, like--and my husband disagrees with me. He's like, "She's lying. She's full of lies. Why even give her the opportunity or the platform?" And I'm like, "Well, that's why they brought her up there."Zach: They brought her up there though. So if you're gonna bring 'em up there, then you gotta let 'em talk.Janice: Yeah, and that's why--and my husband's like, "No, but she's just blatantly lying," and I'm just like, "Yeah, but they brought her up there to speak," and I think that--that's interesting. Did you tell the person no? Or did you say you'll think about it?Zach: Oh, no, no. I said "Hell nah." Like, off the top. [laughs] All the Southern in me came out, 'cause it was like, "No," right? Like, I'm not doing that.Janice: Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder what she would speak to, because as far as I know she's not in corporate America. She just, you know, does these talks, or she has her YouTube channel and she--but, you know, that's interesting. [laughs]Zach: So then the same person was like, "Well, I'm also friends with Ben Carson. Would you like to have him on?" I was like, "No." I said, "No," and I said, "No," because I was like, "Look, one, that association is not making any sense." Like, "We're not--it's not gonna be a conversation. It's gonna be me tearing down some old black man. That's not cool." Because I literally don't agree with anything he's doing. So I was like--but this is my thing. So, like, at that level, I'm like, "No. I'm not taking a bag from them." But, like, a Papa John's? Yes, I'll take a bag from Papa John's. Facebook? Yes, I'll take a bag from Facebook.Janice: Yeah. Yeah, because I think the difference between Ben Carson and Candace Owens and Papa John's is that--and even Kanye West if you want to think about it--I haven't really seen any of them be apologetic. They're just like, "This is who I am," and they're gonna go on as many platforms as we'll let them speak. So it seems like your audience I don't think would be receptive to that and would just be like, you know, "Zach, you're just trying to get them on to get more clicks."Zach: For the clout, exactly. Janice: Exactly, so I think that with Papa John's and some of these other companies, they realize they've made a mistake and they're, like, trying to fix it, and I think that that's what would make me--I don't know. It's tough. I don't think we should just cancel companies where the CEO says or does something that is, you know--Zach: You need the bag. I think that goes back to what I was saying at the top. Like, look, we live in a capitalistic society. Like, if someone goes, "Hey, I messed up, and this is what I'm trying to do, and I really want to get around--" Like, "I'm trying to make moves," and whatever whatever, and there's a bag out there for you to--like, if the former CEO of Papa John's wanted to come on here and let me talk to him and grill him about why he said what he said, his background, what he's doing now to actually create an impact, like, today, if we could have that conversation, like, an accountable, frank conversation, and what advice he would give to other white senior leaders and executives on how to drive and be more inclusive and be more aware of their own biases, anti-blackness, et cetera, if we could have that type of conversation, he's more than welcome to come on the show.Janice: Absolutely.Zach: You see what I'm saying? The current inclusion and diversity leader for Papa John's? Of course they're welcome to come on the show, but like you said, like, someone coming on just to be like, "Nah, I'm just gonna be loud, proud and wrong," it's like... no. That's not gonna work.Janice: Yeah, exactly. So I think that sometimes we feel like--you know, I don't ever feel like "Am I selling out?" But sometimes, you know, I'll get comments like that, where people are like, "Why are you focused on what people of color should do?" You know, I did an interview and I wrote an article about some mistakes that women of color make in tech, and somebody wrote me and said, "Why would the onus fall on the women of color in tech and not on the company?" And I said, "I've written many articles on what companies can do to be more inclusive, but I think it's also important to best position yourself to be successful." I've made mistakes in my career, and I've done things where I could have--you know, even as far as, like, branding myself. I've had a LinkedIn for years, and within the last two and a half years I've started to really get into LinkedIn, but I could've really been more active and gotten more opportunities from it. And there's been times when at work I've been antisocial and I didn't want to hang out with anyone that wasn't like me, and I think that that is problematic when you're trying to advance in your organization. Sometimes you have to go to those events, you know, mingle a little bit, smile and do whatever. And Minda Harts talked about this in her book "The Memo," about, like, the importance of sort of fraternizing with your colleagues and how that can help you when you're trying to advance. So I think that even as a woman of color in the workplace, I've made mistakes, so I think that's important to recognize and not just be like, "It's all the company's fault."Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And it's interesting, we've gotten the same type of feedback, right? But it's like--my whole thought is look, we're all grown. There's a certain level of agency that we have as professionals in our career, and yes, we're gonna talk about the systemic structural challenges. I think we would be doing--like, it's intellectually dishonest and insulting to not pair that--like, it's not either or, it's both and. And not equally on either side, right? Like, there are larger responsibilities that these organizations have to create inclusive and equitable and diverse spaces, and--and--and there's also responsibilities and just things that we can be aware of as underrepresented people in how to navigate these spaces, right? And it's not about respectability politics. It's not about anything that's asking you to sacrifice your dignity or your self-worth. It's about just you being knowledgeable, because there are things that people in the majority understand and they know in navigating work that we just literally don't know, and so it's about--that type of knowledge is incredible, and I know the article you're referencing that you wrote. But again, I think they go hand-in-hand. Look, this has been an incredible conversation, Janice. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Janice: Well, I just hope that anyone listening to this can just look at what each of us can do in our lives to really deconstruct oppressive systems. So even if that's something as, like, retweeting or reposting something that--like, the stories of someone from a marginalized group. I think that's still moving the needle and amplifying their voice. So I try to do that as much as I can and just highlight people that deserve the shine and may not get the shine, because even in the D&I space there's a quote-unquote hierarchy, and I think certain people--you and I have discussed this--get a lot of shine while there's other people doing a lot of the ground work who aren't recognized as much. Not that you should do things for recognition, but I think that amplifying other people's voices is important. So yeah, that's pretty much it. Anyone who wants to discuss things more with me can just find me on Instagram. I'm @janicejnice, or add me on LinkedIn. I'm Janice Gassam on LinkedIn. We can chat more.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, you know we're gonna have all of your links as well as your Forbes profile so that people can check out all of your super dope articles, so we got you on that. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate, okay? So good conversation as always. We have the best guests. That's right, I'ma say it. We have the best guests. And, you know, we typically do a thing--we typically drop air horns, and if I remember we drop 'em at the top, but, you know, I forgot this time 'cause I got too excited 'cause we were just having this super dope conversation, so I'ma drop 'em right here--[air horns sfx]--just thank you very much. This has been a super cool conversation.Janice: Thank you so much, Zach. It's been a pleasure.Zach: No doubt. Listen, y'all. Living Corporate. Google us, right? You get on Google or--what's another, Yahoo? I don't know. I really just be on Google. This is not even an ad. [both laugh] But you get on Google or whatever your little search thing is and you type in Living Corporate, and you'll see us, man. We're out here. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate, and we have all the domains, right? So www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash. Livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.us. We've got all the livingcorporates, Janice, except for livingcorporate--like, all the way with no dash--dot com, 'cause Australia has that domain, but we got the rest of 'em.Janice: Oh!Zach: I know, right? They own this corporate housing thing, but if you go on the SEO, like, we hopping over them though. If you Google Living Corporate, like, we're hopping over them now, so we--I'm just saying, the brand is getting stronger. Let's see here. I think that's it, y'all. You've been listening to Zach, and I've been having a dope conversation with Dr. Janice Gassam, speaker, educator, mover, shaker, name taker, edge snatcher, writer. What else, Janice?Janice: System deconstructor.Zach: Yes! System deconstructor. Disruptor. Come on, bars. Let's go. All right, all right.Janice: An intentional inclusionist. [laughs]Zach: Ooh! Wait a second, intentional inclusionist? [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, okay, okay. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach discusses building learning communities with ChangeNerd CEO and founder Brian Hampton. Brian talks a bit about ChangeNerd, a digital learning community that supports change management practitioners and inspires innovation, and he also offers some advice for black and brown folks who are looking to build a learning community of their own.Connect with Brian on LinkedIn!Check out ChangeNerd's home page and follow them on LinkedIn! Want to become a member of the community? Click here!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now look, you know what we do. We have authentic conversations about being black and brown in the corporate space. Now, corporate space makes it sound really fancy, right? Like you're wearing a suit and a tie, you know, maybe sometimes you have to actually put some lotion on your ankles. That's not what I mean, right? I just mean the place that you actually have to work, right? Living Corporate is a place that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work, okay? And how do we do that? We do that with authentic conversations with black and brown executives, entrepreneurs, influencers, educators, public servants, creatives, activists, right? And we do that in just, like, one-on-one conversations, sometimes we'll do a two-on-one, sometimes we'll do a three-on-one, sometimes we have, like, a--you know, we mix it up, but the point is we're having real talk, and that's why our tag line is what? Real talk in a corporate world. All of that being said, y'all know we're having dope conversations every time y'all hear this podcast, and today is no different. Today we're talking to Brian Hampton. Brian is the CEO and founder of ChangeNerd, a company that supports change management practitioners and inspires innovation. Brian, welcome to the show. How are you doing, man?Brian: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Zach. I really appreciate it.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit more about yourself?Brian: Yeah. So, you know, I started ChangeNerd. It's primarily a digital learning community. I started it to really bring professionals together, because for us who do change management and help organizations adopt new ways of working, we really just tend to be heads-down, working on our projects, and I wanted to create a way for us to just connect and share best practices. Prior to launching ChangeNerd, I consulted at Deloitte. I also led change management teams at different companies, both private and non-profit. So I love the field. I'm super passionate about it, and I'm glad to talk about it today.Zach: Yeah, man. You know, and coming from a change background myself, you know, I don't see a lot of black men in this space, right? I don't really see a lot of black folks period, but I definitely don't see a lot of black men specifically and just black and brown men in general in the space. Can we talk a little bit about, of all the professions you could have chosen, like, what about change management got you?Brian: Yeah. This is real cool, this is real cool. Nice question, and--great question, actually. So I went to college in undergrad for criminal justice and then soon realized there was no real money behind it, and so I jumped into HR, jumped into the federal government, and at around 2008, 2010, I felt like HR was kind of flat, and then I was introduced to change management because the agency I was at at the time, we were implementing PeopleSoft, and so I was formally introduced to change management, and I really couldn't believe this was a full-time job, right? 'Cause it's really around just working with people and helping them, you know, really adopt new ways of working. And I'm like, "Wow, people get paid doing this?" So I did some research and saw that the pay was decent, and so I jumped into the field. So yeah, I thought--at the time I thought HR was boring, and change management seemed to be the new thing, and there's some really strong transferable skill sets from HR to change management, and so I took the leap.Zach: Man, you know, that's 100%, and it's interesting because my career was a little bit the same. I think we talked about this off the mic, but, like, I started as an HR manager at Target and then transitioned into org design and just being, like, a specialist, right? And then eventually formed all the way into change management. And you're absolutely right, a lot of it's transferable, but you know what's interesting? I think a lot of it isn't, because--I do agree that often times HR gets a tough rep as just being, like, the benefits folks, right? And kind of helping with ER issues, but really they're just kind of--they're almost like the security guards of the company, but they don't have a gun. They've got, like, a roll of quarters to call the peace when it gets really scary, you know? They might have a flashlight so that they can look at you while you're doing something wrong, but they don't really have any actual, you know... come on, man. Yeah, so anyway. Okay, cool. So look, we're talking today about building learning communities, right? ChangeNerd is a learning community, like you said at the top, but to start, like, how would you define a learning community, and what are the benefits of being in a learning community?Brian: Well, you know, quite honestly--and, you know, the whole theme of this podcast is corporate--you know, corporate living, and if you're in corporate, your organization is more than likely changing. It's using and bringing on new technology, new processes, you know, organizations are trying to be competitive, so all of that activity is happening, and what that means for the individual person is that you have to take ownership of your own journey, your own learning journey. And so the best way to do that is really tap into some type of social learning community, and that's part of the reason why I created ChangeNerd. There was nothing out there specifically for, you know, professionals who spend a lot of their time in project management, change management, and so I wanted to create a community for us folks. And, you know, what I'm noticing after doing this just for 12 months is that it's extremely beneficial. We got thousands of people in the community, both at the executive level and, you know, practitioner level, and the people love the community because they can take charge and, you know, tap in whenever they want to tap in. It's LinkedIn on a much smaller scale, you know? And there's beauty in having access to like-minded people. So if you're on a project and you're struggling, you know you're only a button away or an email away from getting help, and that's what it's all about, and for us, we tend not to have those strong networks when it comes to corporate, and so--you know, I'll be honest with you. I'll share this story. Deloitte was--working at Deloitte was the hardest--and it was fun, but it was extremely difficult, primarily because I didn't have that network. Even tapping into, you know, the African-American BRG, it's still tough for us to connect with the right people, people that we can trust in the corporate atmosphere. And so, you know, yeah, you go to work every day and you build a network there, but there's nothing like building an even broader network outside of your organization to give you the confidence you need to be successful.Zach: Man, you know, you're 100% right. And it's interesting. Like, as organizations, or just as technology continues to grow... like, at first the draw of technology and, like, social networking was size, right, and scope. Like, "You can reach anybody anywhere!" Like, you know, big numbers were attractive, right? So if you could say--you know, you say LinkedIn, like, millions of people use LinkedIn every day, right? But then, like, the disconnect is "Okay, what does it look like for me to actually touch somebody?" 'Cause I don't really need to touch a million people. I [may only?] really need to touch, like, 15. So what do I need to do to make sure that I can actually touch those, you know, less than 20 people that I actually need? And so it's just interesting as you see, like, communities change or digital communities change and evolve that, you know, we're noticing that size isn't everything, you know what I mean?Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, building a community around, you know, your role or your aspirations professionally, it's an ongoing journey, and what I will say is--here's the major benefit, right? If you got 100 people, because you were diligent, and let's say you spent, you know, three to six months really building a community around you or tapping into an existing one, and you now have 100 people that you trust that you know you can reach out to. If you get laid off, if you want to go independent and start your own agency. You know, if something bad happens to you, you've got 100 people who got your back, and that's what it comes down to. I can't--you know, just in doing this community, you know, ChangeNerd, I can't tell you the amount of people that I've been able to help, you know? So-and-so got laid off? Oh, I know this partner at this firm, right? And there's a trust that's built. And so, you know, submitting your resume becomes more of a--it's something that happens afterwards, right? Because of trust, that organization is pretty much gonna bring you on, right? And so your resume becomes a formality after the fact, and so, like, that's the beauty of having a network and being tapped in to a digital learning platform or any social learning community that you have.Zach: Yeah, man. You know, it's interesting. You talked about some of your challenges at Deloitte and, like, the barrier being you not having that community, formally or informally, right? So, like, based on your experiences, what advice or, like, what lessons learned would you be able to share and kind of what would you be able to give to black and brown folks today who are looking to build those types of spaces for themselves for their own professional development?Brian: To be honest with you, it's a journey. It's a journey, and the reality is you don't know what you don't know. Years ago when I was at Deloitte, I don't think I had the right mindset, you know? You know, they hired me for a job, you know, primarily to do deliverables on projects, and that's what I did, but to be successful, there are--there are so many other competencies there, you know? You've got to be able to manage up. You've got to be able to build relationships. And, you know, when it comes to corporate, a lot of times, you know, I know for me and probably for the folks that are listening to this podcast, sometimes you may be one of the few black or brown people in a room, and it's difficult to raise your hand, and it's difficult to bring your perspective without being judged, but over time with the right experiences you get really good at it. But honestly, I don't know if there's any advice that I can give to anyone other than, you know, go for it. Continue to build your network out. But ultimately, it's your journey, and you have to own your own learning process, regardless of what type of, you know, leadership development programs you find yourself into. You have to own your own learning. Tapping into a network is beneficial, but just recognize that relationship building and having the ability to build trust with others, those are the things that you'll learn along the way.Zach: Man, well, let's do this. Let's talk about ChangeNerd, because I do get folks who hit me up, right? I have old colleagues, I have people in different, like, just social networks who hit me up about getting into change management. Let's talk about ChangeNerd, you know, why the name, the journey you got there, and then just where people can learn more about it.Brian: Yeah. So it's funny, I knew I wanted to bring--well, I'll tell you this. Me and the team, we were building an app. So we built this nice, sophisticated change management app, and as I was trying to sell it to different companies I realized that change management teams didn't really have the budget for it, so we scrapped it. But I ran into--I live in the Chicago area. I found six large companies all implementing SAP all struggling at the same point in time, right? And it was that moment where I realized "Wow, I need to build a community, because we're just working way too siloed." So I launched the community. And the community is free to join, and every week I interview a subject matter expert around--and we talk about some area surrounding organizational best practices, and every so often we offer virtual courses and we also offer in-person events. And so, you know, when people think of ChangeNerd, I want them to think about the learning community, because at the heart that's what it is. We pay the bills by consulting different companies, but we try to spend the bulk of our time just enriching the learning community.Zach: Well, that's incredible, man. So talk to me about where--at what point did you realize that ChangeNerd was, like, "Okay, wow. This is something serious." Like, this is an actual--so I'm not gonna say it's a movement because that's mad corny.Brian: It is. [laughs]Zach: It's mad corny. People always--man, sidenote. Man, people always talking about "it's a movement, it's a movement." So many--how is everything moving? Brian: I know, I know. So let me tell you how I knew it was real. It got real for me when I got an email. I got an email from an HR VP that said "Hey, Brian. We want to fly you to Boston, and we want you to do a series of workshops for our supply chain leadership," right? That's when it got real for me. So I replied back. I'm like, "Do you have budget?" And they told me the budget, and via email within, like, literally 5 minutes we negotiated budget. That's when it got real for me, because what I found out was when you tap into a community or if you build a community, right, you're automatically building trust with people, right? And so when they see you they trust you because you're giving out good insight, you're giving out--you know, you're helping them, and when opportunities pop up they reach out to you. And so, you know, first it started out as a speaking engagement, right? And I didn't have to give them documents and compete with other firms. They wanted me. That's when I knew. I told my wife, "Honey, this is--like, this is real money," right? And then the phone calls came, you know? Head of IT from this company, head of HR from this company. "Brian, we want to get your perspective," right? And they knew that, you know, I wasn't gonna do it for free, and so they came with the budget, and so it's just--when you have that network of people, you're able to help people, and they can help you as well. And so to be honest with you, that's how I knew that this could be something real, when I started getting emails of different companies, from different companies, that needed my help.Zach: Well, talk to me about what you've been most excited about that ChangeNerd has accomplished, and as you look at 2020, what are you most looking forward to?Brian: Yeah. So when it comes to change management, you have major training companies really trying to control the narrative. You have--I won't call out any names here, but you have companies, you know, controlling the narrative. What I'm so proud of is with me interviewing different subject matter experts every week, it just opens the opportunity for the narrative to change, right? And so for change management not to be come, like, an academic exercise. And so for people not to be locked into one particular framework, and for more stories and experiences to be told. As we move into 2020, we're going to get a little bit more niche. We're gonna have little--well, not little, but smaller digital communities. So change management in health care, change management in non-profits, change management in financial services. We're gonna have digital communities by industry, by specialty, just to give people access to more practical advice. So that's something I'm looking forward to as we move into 2020.Zach: All right, man. Now, look, I wouldn't be a platform if I didn't give you a space to actually plug ChangeNerd. So, like, where can we learn more about it? What's the content? What's the information? Of course we'll have it in the show notes, but go ahead and shout it out right here.Brian: Yeah. So you can dive right in to the online community by going to community.changenerd.com. Community.changenerd.com. That will put you right into the community. Go ahead and join. It's totally free, and I look forward to seeing you there.Zach: All right. Now look, everybody--y'all heard him, okay? So y'all driving, you walking, you're doing whatever you do, you heard what he said. Community.changenerd.com. It'll be in the show notes. And y'all be clicking the links. We look at the Bit.lys. We see that y'all clicking stuff, but you ain't gotta do it. You heard me, right? So you heard Brian, you heard Zach. Just go ahead and click that thing. Now Brian, before we let you get up out of here, any shout-outs or parting words?Brian: No. Zach, I love what you're doing, and it's podcasts like this that really help people like us move forward, so I appreciate the effort that you're doing. And if you're listening to this episode, I would encourage you to reach out to me, and hopefully I can be of help to you, and that's pretty much it. But Zach, I'm very proud of the work that you're doing.Zach: [air horns sfx] Man, them air horns is for you and for me, man. I appreciate you, man. I thank you, and I appreciate the work that you're doing, right? You're demystifying change management. You're creating a space for folks who are interested in change management and who are already established change management practitioners to engage, learn, and build. And this is not an ad. So yeah, just shout-out to you. Shout-out to ChangeNerd. And listen, y'all, this does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Thank you for checking in. Now look, y'all typically know I kind of put all the ats and stuff, but every now and then I just kind of flex on 'em, just a little flex. Sometimes I'll just say "Google us." [Flex bomb sfx] You know? Just Google Living Corporate. Just "Living Corporate," right? We're on everything. We're on all of the streaming platforms. We're on Instagram at @LivingCorporate. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, right? And then if you want to check out the website, again, just Google us, Living Corporate, or you can type it in the browser - living-corporate, please say the dash, dot com. We're also livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net. We've got all of the livingcorporates except, you know it, livigncorporate.com, 'cause Australia has--Brian, Australia has livingcorporate.com, man. Brian: That's crazy.Zach: Ain't that crazy? Yeah. So listen, y'all. Appreciate y'all. Listen, if you have any questions, anything you want to learn about change management, make sure that y'all contact Brian. We're gonna put all of his contact information down in the show notes. Until next time, this has been Zach, and you've been talking to Brian Hampton, CEO and founder of ChangeNerd, a digital learning community for change management professionals. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of chatting with Brittani Hunter, founder and CEO of The Mogul Millennial, and they discuss how to go about effectively using your voice at work. They also talk about The Mogul Millennial platform in general, what she's looking forward to in the future, and what initially led her to its creation. Connect with Brittani on Twitter and Instagram!Check out The Mogul Millennial website and follow them on Twitter and Instagram!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and again, look, y'all know what we do. We have incredible guests all of the time. Now, this guest is pretty interesting, because, you know, as I've been--as we. Shout-out to Ade, shout-out to Sheneisha, shout-out to Tiffany, shout-out to Tara, shout-out to Taylor, shout-out to Tristan, you know what I'm saying? These are all sounding like random names, but these are all people that actually I work with on Living Corporate. Shout-out to Amy, okay? I see you. We have all--as we continue to really build out Living Corporate, folks, there's one name that continues to come up. Like, "Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person?" And I'm like, "Yes, I have. Yes, we've made a connection. Yes, we still need to interview. Yes, but I do know who that is," and it is this individual, and this person is a LinkedIn Top Voice. They're an entrepreneur. They're a writer. They're an educator. They're a public speaker. They're a mover. They're a shaker, you know what I'm saying? They're a snatcher of edges, you know what I'm saying? They out here is my point, and this person is Brittani Hunter. Brittani, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Brittani: I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me.Zach: No, no, no. Thank you for actually being on the show. In fact, let me go ahead and just--just a very modest, you know what I'm saying, cheer, just to welcome you, you know what I'm saying? [cheers sfx] Nothing too crazy. Just something to kind of get us started. For those of us who don't know you--I know I kind of gave a little bit, but would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Brittani: Yeah. So like you mentioned earlier, I'm an entrepreneur and also a LinkedIn Top Voice. I am also a proud HBCU grad, so if you went to PVAMU, shout-out to you. I am based here in Texas, Dallas to be exact, and I've been in the entrepreneur space for about 3.5 years, but full-time since January of this year. So January of 2019.Zach: Okay, now, wait, you're not gonna shout-out your HBCU?Brittani: I did. You didn't hear me? Prairie View A&M University. So PVAMU. ["ow" sfx]Brittani: [laughs] Yeah. It's the best HBCU in my opinion, so yeah, shout-out to you if you are a PV grad as well. Zach: Shout-out to the HBCUs. It's so funny, 'cause, you know, no one ever goes, "Shout-out to the PWIs!" But, you know, it's cool. Shout-out to education, and definitely shout-out to HBCUs. My dad went to Jackson State, and my mom [was Miss?] Tougaloo back in the day, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I came from good stock is what I'm trying to say. [jokingly] You're not the only person out here flexing in your complexion, that's all. Okay, so look, today we're talking about using your voice effectively. You talked about being a LinkedIn Top Voice. First of all, what does it mean to be a LinkedIn Top Voice?Brittani: So every year, LinkedIn, they'll select people that currently use the LinkedIn platform--hence the name LinkedIn Top Voice--and what it is is people that they recognize that are making an impact through the platform, and so an impact on the platform through their content. So yeah, to become a LinkedIn Top Voice essentially means that you're recognized as someone who has influence and a heavy impact on the users, on the thousands and millions of users that are on LinkedIn.Zach: Let's talk about you being selected. Like, what did that process look like?Brittani: It was actually a surprise. So I was literally at my old 9-to-5, um, not doing work, checking my personal email on my phone, and I saw that I had an email from one of the editors. And so LinkedIn has several editors that specifically focus on different subjects, and so the editor reached out and was pretty much saying that they love all of my content, that they, you know, on the back end they've been seeing how much engagement and all the high impressions that my content has been getting, whether that was my blog content--'cause, you know, LinkedIn has the publishing platform that you can publish blogs on. So whether it was that or just my normal, you know, short-form or long-form posts, and they were wanting to see if I was interested in being a part of their LinkedIn Top Voice selection. And so it was pretty much--that was really it. They required for me to write a post, so once they released the list of all of the LinkedIn Top Voices in the different categories--and by the way, I was selected in the category for Management and Culture. So yeah, once they released the article with everybody that was selected, they also released a series of articles from each LinkedIn Top Voice that was selected.Zach: That's really, really cool. You know, what's really interesting about what you shared is that, you know, you said you weren't even expecting it. You were just doing what you were doing, and then it just happened, right?Brittani: Yeah. A lot of people think that there is, like, some type of formal application or if you, like, reach out to someone that works at LinkedIn that you can get it, but it doesn't work like that. If you just keep doing what you're doing and just be focused on--and you're just, like, focused on actually putting out great content, then you'll be noticed, and if you're lucky they'll select you as a Top Voice.Zach: You know what? I just--I just think it's really incredible, and like I said from the top, everybody that I talk to, as I've been talking about Living Corporate, they're like, "You know, you really need to talk to--have you talked to anybody from The Mogul Millennial?" And I'm like... but it's just been, like, an ongoing conversation, and, you know, since then, and really frankly to this day, I'm just really excited that we were able to make this connection, you know what I mean? [to this day sfx]Brittani: Yeah. [laughs] I love the soundbites. I love it, I love it. Zach: No, I appreciate. So look, on your platform you share real talk, right? So the latest piece that I personally read was about black leadership at Fortune 500 companies being at its lowest, yet black celebrity partnerships are booming--and it's so interesting because, at the time of this recording, of this podcast, you know, Jay-Z just announced that partnership that he has with the NFL for the social justice movement thing. Anyway, in it you assert that while exploring the direct and subtle implications of that fact, right? So basically you go into it, right? A lot of your pieces do this, where you have, like, this fairly, like, strong initial statement, and then you really go into the nuances and the implications of whatever you stated, right? As black creatives who are focused on content centered around business, I think there's a line we have to decide when we're going to, like, not cross, right? Like, and show how honest or raw that we're being. What has that journey looked like for you specifically and how you've balanced, like, discomforting truths with managing a brand that extends far beyond your family and close friends?Brittani: Yeah. So I think, for me, what I just try to, like, you know, work at towards every day is just, like, living my truth. When you're not living your truth, you know, you're the one that's mostly impacted, and so whether that was--you know, whether that's me right now as an entrepreneur or me back when I was working the traditional 9-to-5 in the workplace, I'm not going to downplay, you know, what I think or try to sugarcoat, like, my thoughts and my feelings because of someone else, and so I think it's important that when we speak on our truths it also empowers other people to do the same. So specifically through Mogul Millennial, I like to have those types of conversations and so that way, you know, the issue at hand isn't ignored or it's not--you know, it's not watered down.Zach: And so how do you feel like that philosophy could be applied to, like, black and brown professionals in their day-to-day jobs and how they use their voice?Brittani: I think, you know--it's funny. So it makes me think about--like, a really quick story. When I was working at one of my last 9-to-5s, it was a predominantly white workplace, and one of my coworkers who was black, she would just, like, literally turn her personality all the way off, even from, like, the foods that she ate.Zach: Wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] What you mean the food that she ate?Brittani: Yeah! So she wouldn't eat things like chicken in the office or really be, like, really careful on the types of fruit that she would eat.Zach: The types of--oh, so she wouldn't eat, like, a banana is what you're trying to say?Brittani: That, watermelon. You know, like, the traditional, like, things--[haha sfx, both laugh] Yeah, like, you think about, like, black people, and it was weird. So we would have, like, potlucks at work, and if people brought chicken she would say that she was allergic to chicken, but she loved chicken.Zach: She would say that she was allergic to chicken?Brittani: Yeah. It was like, "Girl, why are you doing this? Just be yourself and people will like you for it," you know?Zach: Can we have, like, a real conversation about this though? Okay, so I was talking to my--my wife and I were talking about this. We talk about this often, and Dave Chappelle did a whole stand-up skit about it, but you know how, like, just racist--anti-black racism is so lazy. So it's like, you really think that chicken and watermelon are, like, exclusive to black people? Do you know delicious watermelon is? Do you know how delicious chicken--like, do you know how many cultures enjoy chicken? We all love chicken. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. So she would not eat watermelon. She would not eat bananas. Bananas are--you know, they're a lot of sugar, so if you're watching your weight and you're trying to, you know, kind of cut down on your calories, I can understand--Brittani: Yeah, the carbs and everything. Yeah, I get it, but, you know, from that to, you know, purposely not listening to music that she wanted to in her own personal office.Zach: She had a personal office?Brittani: Yeah. It was just crazy. Like, do what you want to do. Like, be yourself. And so she would say all of the time, like, "Well, Brittani, you're gonna listen to this type of music in the office?" Yes. This is my office. You know, I've earned my role. I'm just as qualified as the next person, and I'm not gonna feel uncomfortable at work and not do things that are true to myself, but the person next to me is, just because we're two different skin colors, come from two different backgrounds, and, you know, upbringings. You know, it doesn't mean that they can do something that I can't. And so one of the things that I learned is that, you know, when you're true to yourself, people, they like the real you. They want to know the real you. You don't have to whiten it to be accepted. So yeah, I highly encourage people in the workplace to not, like, you know, whiten or change who they are just to quote-unquote "fit in," because, you know, people can recognize bull**** and they know that it's not the real you anyway.Zach: That's right. Now, look, this is a clean podcast, but, you know, I respect you, you know what I'm saying?Brittani: Oh, I'm sorry.Zach: No, no, that's okay, but when you said it I was like--[Metal Gear Solid surprised sfx]--you know what I'm saying? Like, "Okay, wait." But no, no, you're absolutely right, people can recognize it, and you just want to be yourself, you know? It's interesting. We had a conversation on Season 1. It was, like, our first episode, with Fenorris Pearson, who was--he was, like, an executive with Motorola and Dell, and he talked about the fact that he went on this plane ride, right, with, like, this very senior white executive, and he said, "Look, we can tell when y'all are putting on airs, and, like, it's fake." Like, "We hate that. It's annoying. We can see right through it. It's awkward. It's clearly not authentic," right? Now, I don't want to shame anybody, because we've been classically--we've been conditioned to put on coverings and participate in respectability politics as a means of survival, so I'm not shaming anybody for doing those things, but at the same time--not but, and we also live in a time when, look, you have a voice. Use it and be yourself, right? Like, if you want to listen to Rick Ross, you know what I'm saying, do that. You want to smoke a Black and Mild on your smoke break? Go ahead and do that. Like, nobody's gonna stop you. Like, it's okay. It's all right. Maybe not a Black and Mild. [both laugh] I'm trying to think of the last time I've seen somebody smoke a Black and Mild, like, in a work setting.Brittani: Oh, God. I don't think I've ever seen that. That's funny.Zach: Like a 'rillo. That'd be like, "Ooh, what's going on?" [both laugh] No, no, no, but anyway, let's talk a little bit about Mogul Millennial, right? You've talked about the fact it's been going on for three years. What have you been most proud of so far, and what are you looking forward to most in the next, like, six to twelve months?Brittani: You know, when I think about, like, everything that I've experienced in these three years, the thing that I am mostly proud of was getting out of my [?] and realizing that I literally cannot do everything. At my last job, I was--I've always been in management roles, so I'm used to being, like, head over something, you know?Zach: Hold on a second. So wait, wait, wait. You said you've always been in management roles?Brittani: Yeah.["ow" sfx]Zach: Okay, I got you. Keep going. Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so when I started, you know, The Mogul Millennial, it was, you know, just, like, a side project in the beginning since I couldn't dedicate all of my time and resources to it, but yeah, once I decided that I was gonna go full-time with it, I knew that, "Okay, well, Brittani, you can't, like, grow this company. You can't, like, really be as profitable as you want to be, and you're doing everything." So you're doing all of the social media. You're writing all of the blog posts. You're the one trying to pitch yourself and your company to different brands and partners, so you can't do it all, or you can but it's not gonna be really worth anything, or it won't be as good as it could be and as impactful as it could be. And so I really didn't want to at the beginning, I decided to put out a post asking for help, and once I did that, like, our traction increased. I felt like the content got better because we just had, you know, more diverse opinions and thoughts from--like, black millennials literally all over the world were contributing, and so I think that's what I've been most proud of, you know, recognizing that I don't know everything, and that's fine, 'cause now I have people that help me out day-to-day that are so much more better at certain things and more knowledgeable on certain topics, and I've learned a lot as well from those people.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, I feel you. Like, it's tough when, you know, you're at a point, you're grinding, and you feel like you're doing everything, right, like, to the point you're just at your wit's end. You're looking at 'em like ["what more do you want from me?" sfx] You know? It's just like, "I can't." Like, "I have to reach out." That's really important. So, you know, you not only used your voice to create your platform, but you used your voice to extend and expand your platform, 'cause you had to actually use your voice to ask for help.Brittani: Mm-hmm, absolutely. So right now--it was crazy, 'cause when I put out the first post--so since I'm... I have the highest, like, influence on LinkedIn, so, you know, I went to what I know I'm good in. So I put a post on LinkedIn, and literally within the first, like, two weeks, we had over 150 people who were like, "I want to write!" And it was so overwhelming. So between--and remember, I was still working at my 9-to-5. So in-between meetings, like, literally as I was going to, like, meetings, either, like on-site at my job or off-site, or during my lunch break, anything--on the way to the restroom, I was having interviews with these people. 'Cause some people, you know, I had to--I wanted to be accommodating as well, 'cause I wanted to help, and so yeah, it's been good. It's been really good.Zach: So what does it look like, right, to continue and build out this platform, and--actually, let me take a step back. What did it look like when you actually left your full-time job? Like, what did that conversation look like?Brittani: So I had actually planned to leave and was really strategic. So I--I think you and I had talked before and I mentioned that I lived in Houston for a short period of time.Zach: For a little bit of time, yeah.Brittani: Yeah. So originally I'm from Dallas, and I went to school at PV, which is by Houston. Went to PV, came back to Dallas, and was working at a university that's, like, north of Dallas in a small--well, not small... well, yeah, small, but it's [?]. So I was working there at UT Dallas and I remember being approached by my boss's boss--well, no, my boss's boss's boss. So, like, three people above me, to work at the property at the University of Houston, and I denied them, like, three or four times, because the pay wasn't right and I was like, "No, you're not gonna pay me [?]," and I have to move and uproot my life, and so eventually we negotiated back and forth. I got the rate that I wanted plus more, and we--and so yeah, I specifically took that role because I knew that I wanted to quit within a year so that way I could work on Mogul Millennial full-time, 'cause we were doing really well with the site, and so--so yeah, I literally only took the promotion--well, it was like a lateral promotion, so it was the same role but different duties. Zach: But you had got that [cha-ching sfx].Brittani: Exactly, exactly. Making extra money, so I took it knowing that, "Okay, well, I can save money even faster and, you know, quit and be way more financially comfortable."Zach: I got you. So you were, like, kind of scheming on the low, but, like, you know, for yourself though.Brittani: Yeah. I mean, they do it all of the time with us, with [?]. So I had no regrets, no shame. [laughs]Zach: Oh, no, no. Hey, I'm not shaming you, I'm just chuckling 'cause, you know, you negotiated that deal and you're in the background, you know, you're shaking his hand and you're talking about ["hehehe" sfx, both laugh]Brittani: Yep. So no, like, I literally stayed, like, long enough as well. So the year was special because, you know, within a year you can really do--if you're dedicated and persistent you can do some really good damage--well, not damage, but some good improvement. Zach: No, you said what you said. It's okay. [both laugh]Brittani: And then also with the relocation fee, you know, that's why it's important that you read everything. I read in the contract for the relocation [?] I was given that you need to stay for a year. So yeah, I left within a year, and then--so it really just looked like, you know, within that time period for me working at the other location in Houston, was to just save and grow my team, and then also focus on, like, upcoming products and plan out different projects that we're gonna actually be releasing this year, so I'm really excited about that, but it was a lot of hard work. So at my last company I was literally working, like, sometimes, like, 60, 70 hours a week, 'cause I worked in a very busy industry, but at the same time, you know, having a team was really helpful, and then I just worked crazy hours on the weekends, on my lunch breaks, before work, things like that.Zach: That's a blessing. It's a blessing to find folks who are, you know, engaged and willing to support, right? You know, I think we probably need to have you back just around, like, the principles of building a team and getting started, because I think a lot of times, and I'll say this for podcasting, podcasting is notorious for people, like, starting off really big with a splash and then being done after, like, 2.5 months, because the load of, like, getting content, researching, producing, it can get, like, tiring over time, so, like, a lot of podcasts don't even last a year, you know what I'm saying? Let alone--Brittani: It's a full-time job.Zach: It's a full-time job, and so, you know, it's tough. So that's incredible. I'm so excited. I'm so thankful that you've been able to be on this, on our platform. Now, look, again, Brittani, you're the first LinkedIn Top Voice that we've had on Living Corporate. How does that make you feel?Brittani: You know what? It makes me feel good, but it won't be the last. I believe in you guys.Zach: Ow! Had to do my own Cardi B "ow," goodness gracious. Thank you so much, I appreciate that. And, you know, I've gotta give you a Flex bomb just because you've been dropping casual just--[Flex bomb sfx] It's just ridiculous. Like, it's just incredible, but, like, I'm just so thankful that you're able to be here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Brittani: Yeah. So of course shout-out to my team. My editorial assistant, Alex, she came up with the name Mogul Mob and I love it, so shout-out--Zach: Oh, The Mogul Mob? Yeah, Mogul Mob be up in that WordPress putting content together like [Cardi B "bratbratbratbrat" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here.Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so shout-out to them. They are all amazing, even--like, in their own individual lives they do so many great things, from being startup entrepreneurs, small business owners, freelancers, et cetera. Corporate bosses. They are just amazing. But the only other thing that I want to also shout-out or mention is that we gonna be launching our own online course platform through Mogul Millennial. It's called Mogul Genius, so look out for that. It will be released to a private group of people in October, but after that we'll be releasing it to the general public, so yeah.Zach: Look at you. Come on, now. Well, first of all, again, you know what, just shout-out to y'all. I've gotta go ahead and drop these air horns right here--[air horns sfx]--for The Mogul Millennial and, you know what, for Brittani Hunter. Thank you so much for being on our show. Y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and on our website at living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, look, if you have any questions or any shout-outs you'd like to place on the show, you can contact us through the website or you can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us 'cause the DMs are wide open. Now, look, you can check us out online if you just Google Living Corporate. We're at all of the domains. Brittani, do you know we have every single Living Corporate variation besides Living Corporate dot com?Brittani: That's a smart way to go. A lot of people don't do that. I'm so glad that you do so somebody [can't?] steal it.Zach: Thank you. So we've got livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, but we don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia has livingcorporate.com. They've got, like, some apartment renting company out there.Brittani: Oh, my God.Zach: I'm saying, right? Now, look, one day though the brand is gonna be brolic enough we're gonna go and we're gonna get that domain. I just don't know when that's gonna be, but it's gonna happen. I'm speaking it.Brittani: They'll [?] forget to pay their renewal.Zach: They'll mess up. Yeah, real talk. Playas mess up, and they'll mess up too. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? We've talked about Australia a little bit. I'm really trying to be careful 'cause I don't want to create no international beef, but I very much so do want the domain, so I'm trying to figure out, like, what the best strategy is. Maybe you and I could have a conversation offline about that.Brittani: Yeah, yeah. I could tell you a story about that. Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, look, this has been Zach Nunn, and you've been listening to Brittani Hunter, CEO and founder of The Mogul Millennial. Until next time. Peace.

Zach sits down with Nigel Stephens, the director of government relations for Accenture Federal Services, to discuss the mixing of politics and work. Nigel breaks down the real definitions of economics and politics and details his role as the primary liaison with members of Congress and policy makers for AFS.Connect with SCORE on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest, iTunesSearch open positions at Accenture.com!Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture Federal Services on the following platforms: LinkedIn, TwitterConnect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: Nigel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Nigel: I am doing well. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate the invitation.Zach: I appreciate you being here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Nigel: Well, I'm a bit of a local in the Washington, D.C. area. I was actually born in Jamaica, but my family came here in the '80s. I grew up in Maryland and still reside in Maryland. I'm in Prince George’s County. I've been involved in political campaigns since I was a child. My parents were very active in the community. My mother was a teacher at Montgomery College for decades, and my dad was an entrepreneur. He was an accountant and ran his business out of our basement for a number of years. So he was very active in the community, and that was just a part of my upbringing. So part of this discussion about being in government relations, I've been in government or government relations as a professional for over 20 years.Zach: Wow.Nigel: Yeah, and I--you know, I love politics, and I love the role of government as it plays a role in everyone's life. The negotiations--there's an old saying--the negotiations of and maneuvering of politics dictates almost every aspect of your life, whether you like it or not, from the safety and quality of the food you eat and the air you breathe to the education you receive, to whether or not your favorite sports team gets the stadium or not, you know? Negotiations in politics controls all of that. It determines all of that. When I was a senior in high school, I was blessed enough to get an internship with Senator Ted Kennedy from Massachusetts, the Lion of the Senate, and it was there that I really got an education and learned the real definition of the terms "economics" and "politics," right? Economics is the distribution of scarce resources, and politics is simply the method by which we determine who gets what, when, and how. So once learning that I fell in love with the place, and I have never left Capitol Hill since. I've worked in it, on it, or related to it every way I possibly could since that time.Zach: And you know what? It's that profile, Nigel, why we're so excited to talk to you today, 'cause as you know, we're talking about politics at work, and I'm excited to talk to you today because in a large sense, I mean, really, politics is your work. Can you talk a little bit about your role as Accenture's primary liaison with members of Congress and policy makers? Like, what does that--what does that mean?Nigel: For me, I lead Accenture Federal Services' government relations team. So I am an advocate for all of the work that we do for the federal government as a client. I really like that, 'cause it's my way of giving back while still having a professional career. I mean, when I'm doing--when I'm having conversations with new joiners, I really try to get them to keep things in perspective of what they do, whether you're a technologist, you're a coder, you're a strategist, whatever it is. What is the big picture of what you're doing? I mean, we provide services to clients and help individuals get their student loans processed. Healthcare. You know, all of those types of meaningful things that make a real difference in real people's lives, and my direct role in government relations really falls into four categories. Strategic advisor, facilitator, translator, and educator. So I provide the strategic advice based on what's happening with authorizations and appropriations and funding of programs to my business team so they can provide better service to their clients. A facilitator to try to promote communication and coordination between the private sector and industry and the government. As a translator, I--so I'm not a lawyer. I went to business school, so I was trained in--I went and got an MBA, so I was trained in that. Communicating and translating the thoughts and intents of business to the government, to legislators, and vice versa, and then finally is educator. There's a lot of--any given day, members and their staff are dealing with hundreds of different issues, and they can't be subject matter experts in every single one. So part of my responsibility--I think the largest part of my responsibility is really serving as an educator to those on the Hill about what the art of the possible is, about what's happening in the private sector, about what industry is doing, about what new things are happening in technology and how that innovation can really help them meet their real core goal, which is providing service to citizens.Zach: Nigel, now, you know what I love? Is that you out here just--you casually, casually dropping bombs, right? Right? Like, I got to give you the [Flex bomb sfx]. I got to give you the Flex bomb. It's crazy. I mean, my goodness gracious. Okay, that's dope.Nigel: Did you for real just drop the Funkmaster Flex bomb?Zach: I did. I got a whole soundboard over here, man. I be like [haha sfx], you know? Nigel: [?] You're doing it.Zach: I got all kinds of stuff over here, man, but look, I really appreciate the answer. It leads me to the next question. Now, has there ever been a situation where your own life experience has shaped how you approach a policy discussion? Like, how do you decide when and where you, you know, flex and let people know, "Hey, actually, I know what I'm talking about," versus where you decide to kind of lean back and let things play a little bit.Nigel: Take it to a bigger picture. It's not so much on a specific policy area, but for my life experience, I think the lesson would be to be vigilant about building your skills and have confidence in your abilities. When I was starting out my career, there were your veteran rock star African-American lobbyists, right? Your Vernon Jordans. Your Toni Cook Bushs. Your Ben Johnsons. They were another upper echelon of influence, but there weren't that many at just the general corporate level, right? Even more, there wasn't really a clear path to where I wanted to go, which is at that corporate level. So I had to really build a diverse set of skills. You know, whether it be political management, financial management, an MBA, where do I get the diverse skills that I'm going to need to piece together to be effective in the role that I want to get to, and then have confidence that I'm building the capabilities to bring my best self to the table? Now, applying that to the policy realm, you know, Accenture's about technology and innovation, right? How is tech being used and how can it be leveraged in the federal government, and how can those best practices in the commercial sector be applied in the federal government to help them bring those services to citizens more effectively? And then even more, in our current atmosphere, at a cheaper price. Now, in government they may not always see the vision, right? They may not be on the tip of the spear of innovation, and unfortunately sometimes inertia and, you know, "We've always done it this way," "This is the safest way of doing it," can be the worst enemy to progress, regardless of how much that progress is needed or regardless of the benefits that could occur, right? But we have to be vigilant as policy makers and as a company trying to provide services to the policy makers. You've got to be vigilant about building those skills and capabilities. You know, what's that new--is it AI? Automation? Machine learning? Is it migrating things to the cloud? Is it ERP systems? What are those innovative things that are happening in the commercial sector? Building those skills and capabilities, and then also being confident in that what we're offering to the client is in the best interest of the client.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, again, it's almost like--it's almost like, you know, you've been doing this for two decades, Nigel. [both laugh] I would imagine that your role demands a certain level of intellectual [?]. You have to know what you're talking about when you're coming in and you're advocating for the services that Accenture provides, but also at the same time a certain level of emotional and social intelligence in actually--in how you actually engage those topics with your audience. Can you talk a little bit about the role that emotional and social intelligence play practically in your role day-to-day?Nigel: Yeah. There's always the requirement of learning, lifelong learning. You've got to be committed to it, right? I was telling some colleagues the other day that my kitchen table is covered with books that I never felt my kitchen table would be covered with, about AI and coding and automation and those kinds of things, because I have to really understand the subject matter even though we have subject matter experts that will be exponentially smarter in these things than I ever will be, right? They live it, but for me with the emotional and the social intelligence, you know, as a lobbyist, I always try to keep in mind that elected officials and their staff are always primarily focused on outcomes. They're always focused on meeting the needs of the real people that they represent, right? We may not agree on all of the politics, we may not agree on all of the policy, but I have to keep in mind that your whole purpose of being there, working these long hours for the pay that you get, is because you care about the constituents that you're representing and you're really trying to make a difference for them. So keeping that awareness is, you know, essentially keeping things in perspective, even during the most heated policy debate, right? And then essentially a part of my job is--the main requirement is to pay attention to the nuances of government, you know, and the people in the government, and you can't fake that, right? It's not what you necessarily see on television every day, right? That's the upfront, you know, constant barrage of social media and the 24-hour news cycle. There's a lot of nuance [in] those individuals, what they're working on, what they're passionate about, and how you're gonna play a role in all of that, and you really have to pay attention to that.Zach: Expand a little bit about that. When you say, like, the upfront, like, what do you mean by that?Nigel: Well, there's the stuff that you--that professionals report on, right? That's the high-level news that you see, but at any given time when I walk into an office, a member or a staffer is dealing with a number of different personal and professional issues. You have to look at a staffer--when I was on the House side I was working for a congressman from Maryland, Congressman Albert Wynn. My portfolio included environment, health care, education, transportation, small business, and telecommunications, and I was also the staffer for the Minority Business Task Force for the Congressional Black Caucus. Now, at any given time, I was dealing with issues from, you know, building roads on one side, and then that meeting would end, and I would quickly have to transfer over to satellite communication technology, right? That discussion--you have to keep in mind that these are human beings that are working long hours and that their minds are focused on all of these different things, so having that type of--that emotional intelligence for the challenge that they're facing every single day allows you to approach the conversation in a certain way so it's the most effective use of their time and yours and you can actually make a difference.Zach: Nigel, you're a political relationship subject matter expert, so you know the difference between good and bad, quote unquote, politics, right? Can you give us some examples? And I kind of want to--I want to really take your insight and experience in Capitol Hill and talk about office politics a little bit, 'cause I know you've seen it. You've seen it all, right? 'Cause you don't just--you don't just live in Capitol Hill, you also have to go into the office, you have to--you know what I'm saying? Like, you flex between a variety of different environments, right? So can you give us some examples of, like, tacky office politics and things that all employees, but especially employees of color, should avoid?Nigel: Okay. Well, there's an old adage in government relations and lobbying that "there are no permanent friends or permanent enemies, only permanent interests." And instead of "enemies," "permanent opponents, only permanent interests." And you also have to keep in mind "What is your permanent interest, and does getting involved in petty office politics help your movement towards your interest, or is it creating unnecessary risk?" Right? The shorter version of that is "Keep your eyes on the prize." I would strongly recommend--my personal opinion is don't get involved with that, office politics, because the deck chairs are always gonna shift, right? The only consistent thing in life and in business is change, so there are always gonna be people spending a disproportionate amount of their time worrying about those types of things. I try my best to avoid it. I recommend that people try their best to avoid it. Maintain positive and, even more so, positive and strategic relationships, and focus on delivering your best every single day. You do that and then, you know, the other stuff will play itself out, and often times, you know, you're in a steady state, you will find that you will actually progress moving forward in a straight line, in a linear fashion, versus, you know, losing your focus and getting engaged in other things that aren't gonna help you.Zach: So let's shift gears a little bit. You know, you serve on the board of directors of SCORE, a non-profit organization and national partner to the U.S. Small Business Administration dedicated to entrepreneur education and the formation, growth, and success of small business nationwide. What was your reason for engaging in this space? And at the board level, right? There's plenty of things that you could be doing, Nigel, with your time and with your various talents. What was it about this space that got your attention and your passion? Nigel: Well, I have a long history with small business. As I mentioned before, you know, my dad ran his business out of our basement for years, right? So I've seen--I've got a number of family members that are entrepreneurs and small business owners, and so I've witnessed first-hand the impact small businesses have, not only on a household but on a community in general, right? The positive impact that that can have. I said before, when I was on the Hill, on the House side, the first time I was the staffer for the Minority Business Task Force for the Congressional Black Caucus. When I sent to the Senate to work for Senator Carey on the Senate Small Business Committee, you know, I was working on policy issues that would promote and advance the cause of small businesses and entrepreneurs, and SCORE was one of those organizations that I worked very closely with as a Hill staffer. And then when I got the opportunity to join the board I jumped at it. I mean, these organizations--this is an organization of 11,000 volunteers that are former executives. So these are retired corporate executives and former entrepreneurs themselves who are willing to share their wisdom FOR FREE. Let's say that again. FOR FREE.Zach: For free.Nigel: For free. So if anyone is listening, and you're running a business now or you're interested in starting a business and being an entrepreneur, I strongly encourage you to reach out to SCORE. [straight up sfx] I strongly encourage it. It is a wonderful opportunity. But at the board level, I think I get an opportunity to really provide strategic advice and guide the organization in a way that I can make a difference. The decisions I'm making now and the input that I'm providing now is gonna lead the organization into the future 10, 20 years from now, right? So what are they doing with regards to investments in the organization and building it out, and what are they doing with regards to reaching out to diverse communities and reaching out to the new generation of entrepreneurs, which may be your millennial-aged individuals. What does that mean? What does that mean for women and minorities who are disproportionately creating new businesses faster than other communities? Like, how are we serving all of those communities in such a way that it's really making a difference? And these guys are serving everyone from Mom and Pop sandwich shops all the way up to your innovative technology companies. So how can we help--how can I help play a role in that organization doing its best to reach all communities?Zach: Well, that's incredible. You know, what I think is really powerful about you being in that position is, as we know, there are systemic and structural challenges that come with economic self-empowerment and advancement and really participating on these stages--and when I say we I mean, like, black and brown folks in these spaces--so you having that insight and giving your point of view in how--not just your point of view, but your strategic wisdom I believe is very much so invaluable, so that's powerful. Because a lot of this stuff, like, we don't really know--a lot of us don't really know where to start, right? It's not--it isn't, you know, your grandfather's space anymore, you know? It's more complex. There are different hurdles to jump and spaces to navigate. So that's really incredible. This has been an amazing conversation. Before we let you go--Nigel: Thank you.Zach: Yeah, nah. Hey, I appreciate you. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Nigel: Well, I just want to thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate the invitation, and I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. It's really made me think about, you know, the context of what I do and what--there are a number of others in the Washington, D.C. metro area that are making a real difference in the lives of individuals and really in what governments are doing and what industry is doing and what our overall community is doing. So I thank you for the platform. I really appreciate the invitation, and I look forward to having many more conversations.Zach: I look forward to it too, Nigel. Man, look, we definitely consider you a friend of the show. We can't wait to have you back. Now, look, Nigel, I don't know how much of the Living Corporate podcast you've listened to, but every now and then we've got to drop some air horns, okay? So I gotta put 'em in here right... here. [air horns sfx]Nigel: There we go.Zach: I'm saying. I just got to it. And I hope it's not culturally insensitive. I recognize [you/your family are] from Jamaica. I love air horns.Nigel: I love it.Zach: All right, cool. [laughs]Nigel: I love it. [laughs]Zach: Well, all right. Nigel, 'til next time, we'll catch up, man. I appreciate you. Nigel: Thank you very much. Have a great day.Zach: Peace.

Ade and Zach reply to more listener letters! Remember, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, feel free to email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com! You can also DM us on all platforms - they're open! Check them out: Twitter, Facebook, InstagramConnect with us! http://bit.ly/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach. Hey, look, we did it the other way. How does that feel?Ade: Yuck. I can't stand it.Zach: [laughs] It's also alphabetical, and we're going from A to Z with these listener letters. Yo. Bars. [laughs]Ade: All right. [?]. I'm just gonna let you have it.Zach: Man. Y'all, I might be--yo, I might--I need to take these talents, like, to NBC, man. Like, I need to write for somebody. Like, these are good jokes.Ade: Hm.Zach: Or maybe I'd be, like, a ghostwriter, 'cause, like, this is crazy. I have bars. Like, this is great. Did you hear that? I said alphabetical 'cause you--Ade: No, I got the point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? Come on, man. Don't hate. Okay, so look, we're doing these listener letters today. Now, look, we kind of said it last week. The names y'all put in these letters, we're going to say those names unless it seems a little too specific, then we might, like, just call it something else, right? But, like, just know we're gonna read these letters as you send 'em, right? So, you know, sign your name with what you want to be addressed as, and we'll make sure that we respect that, but, you know, we don't want to, like, go into our fake bag name and then, like, give you a fake name, but that might mess around and be your real name, you know what I mean? So just help us out. Help us help y'all. Yeah? Okay. So look, we got these listener letters. We're gonna go ahead and get going. I'ma read this first one. The subject line is "Too Friendly." Uh-oh. What's that mean?Ade: It sounds like a call to HR.Zach: I'm saying. Like, what you mean too friendly? Relax. Okay. "What's up, Ade and Zach?" Look, they kept it alphabetical. What'd I tell you?Ade: [scoffs]Zach: "I feel--" [laughs] "I feel like everyone else is super close at my job and I'm always on the outside of whatever inside jokes they're telling. It makes me question who I can trust, since everyone is friends with everyone but me. They're always going out after work and will come back from the weekend with their stories of what they did. I just want to come to work, do my thing, and go home. I don't want to give up that much time, but I'm also feeling like the odd woman out. What should I do to feel more comfortable at my job? Thanks." She wrote her name as Tracy. Okay, so what should Tracy do?Ade: Well, Tracy, you can't have your cake and eat it too, friend. I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you're saying that you don't want to do the things that make--that have made everyone else become closer and, you know, more vulnerable with each other, right? So I understand wanting to come to work and go home and have that be the extent of your responsibilities at work. That being said, it means that you're not going to have a relationship with the depth that you are admiring and coveting. I mean, you can certainly do the things that we encourage. You can ask your coworkers to go get coffee with you, maybe bring donuts, but you can't have the conversations with people, you can't--honestly, if they're having, like, inside jokes because they went to Happy Hour three times and you went zero times, you're not gonna get any of those contexts. Am I missing something?Zach: No, you're not, and I think ultimately to make friends you have to be friendly. That's what my mom always tells me. Right? Like, you have to actually put yourself out there. So looking at your letter, I'm not really sure--I'm imagining, because of our platform, that you're a person of--a woman of color, and if you are--and even if you aren't, like, it can be hard to put yourself out there and--'cause to show vulnerability with, like, a group of people that you don't really--you don't know, to, like, really try to make friends, and it's tough because, you know, like, the cliqueiness and stuff, like, those things don't just stop after high school. Like, there are definitely, like, work cliques.Ade: Correct.Zach: And so I can understand and empathize with you, you know, feeling a certain kind of way, but, like, if you [?] these insecurities, one way to combat those insecurities is to one, just, like, maybe go out every now and then. It doesn't have to be all the time, but just take the time. Like, if you know they go out somewhere every weekend, maybe you go one time with them on a weekend, or just start maybe with baby steps of if you know they're going out to Happy Hour every single week, you know, maybe choose one or two times a month that you're gonna go with them, right? Like, and then that way you can start kind of easing into it, and that way you will feel more comfortable, and then they'll feel more comfortable, and then, like, it'll--barriers will just kind of come down, I think. But I'm not a woman though, and, like, my wife always tells me that, like, women are different. Like, I'll be kind of talking to her about something and she'll be like, "Look, Zach, women are just different." So help me understand, Ade, what I might be missing in this.Ade: I do not want to project things that aren't there. I don't want to project off of my own personal experiences, simply because I don't think that it does Tracy any good to hypothesize about what could be happening. I mean, her letter doesn't say that she's ever been invited. So that to me might be the issue in that it's one thing that they're having all of these, like, Happy Hours or they're going or whatever it is that they're doing outside of work. It also doesn't say how long that Tracy has been there. It doesn't say that she's ever been extended a formal invitation. It doesn't say that they're including her in other ways that don't include these extracurricular activities, so I--there are many, many different things that could be going on, but what I do know to be true is that Tracy herself says that she only wants to come to work, do her thing, and go home. There are ways to develop friendly relationships that don't also require you to be more vulnerable than you want to be at work. So I would say to Tracy kind of what we said last week with I think it was Jamal. Grab a drink with them. Not, like, alcohol, but grab some coffee or grab some tea, or come in in the morning and ask them about the weekend and share a little bit of what you did on your weekend, or "Oh, hey. Did you guys catch Homecoming on Netflix? Really great. You guys should see it." There's so many--yeah, there's so many different ways that you can share cultural contexts that don't require you to be more revealing than necessary. Also, once you start relying on greater cultural contexts, I mean, you don't have to get their inside jokes, because Beyonce, like, crosses all cultural barriers, right? Like, come on. Come on.Zach: "Come on. Come on." [laughs] No, I super agree, and that's a really good point, like, that culture is a big deal. People talk about culture in, like, these really, like, high-brow, generic, 30,000-foot ways, but I think, like, just really practically speaking, like, for people of color, at least I'll speak for black folks, like, if I'm going out for drinks with you after work, like, that means that I'm really cool with you. So, like, it's hard for us--I'll speak for me anyway. It was hard for me to, like, really be like, "Yeah, I'ma go out to drinks with you," after I've already worked 8 hours or 9 or 10 hours with you and I've seen you, you know what I'm saying, all day, and I don't even know if I really like or trust you. So, like, you haven't really shown me, like, any type of trust-worthy characteristics while we work together, but now I'm about to spend extra time and my money with you? Right? Like, those are the things that have gone through my mind. Like, "Okay, I'ma go break these barriers down," but, like--and we talked about this with Deborah Owens, who's CEO of the Corporate Alley Cat. We spoke with her--we spoke with her about this, I believe that was in season 1, but we were just talking about that's part of the job. Like, doing that, extending yourself is part of your job, and getting to know those people is part of--is part of your whole work life. Like, those are working hours for you. Like, that's how you should think about it. If you genuinely just don't do want to do it, it's important for you to make some of that time. Again, it doesn't have to be all the time, but you should not be like, "No, I don't go to anything." Like, you should go to something from time to time, but I also think it's a really good point that, like, you shouldn't have to extend yourself super far. There are small things you can do at work, you know what I'm saying? There are things you can do at work to make sure that people at least know a little bit about you. Maybe there's some more humor you can insert at work. Again, I'm not asking you to be, like, a comedian. I'm just saying, like, there's things that you can do. So I think that's really good feedback.Ade: I think the final comment that I would want to make is that--have you ever seen that graphic of the cultural context? Like, the cultural iceberg?Zach: Nah, what is that?Ade: Okay, so it's this image that shows--like, you know how an iceberg, you really can only ever see the tip of it, and there's so much more depth or so much more that's underneath the waters? At the top, it shows things like food and holidays and language as the things that are easy to see, but underneath the surface there are things like rules of conduct, child-rearing practices, family values, body language, expectations, aesthetics, personal space. There are all of these different things that are a part of your culture that are so much more difficult to articulate. I think there is such a thing as work culture, a similar iceberg in that it's easy to see, like, your dress code, turn-around time for client deliverables, or just all of these different things that are easy to see once you enter the work space, but they're things that are--that are underneath the surface, right? How often you should be going to Happy Hour being one of them, which could be really alienating for people who don't drink for whatever reason, right, or that you have to make your rounds every day to have conversations with people, which is something that I didn't know when I first started working in a lot of corporate spaces. Like, you have to make rounds. You have to go around to people and make conversations in certain--in certain work environments because you're so scattered, and so in order to maintain your working relationships, it's this unspoken rule that you get up at 10:00 a.m. or at 2:00 p.m. and you kind of go talk to other coworkers. These are all things that are a part of that work culture iceberg that might be difficult to see, and once you have fallen on the wrong side of that iceberg, it's very difficult to repair those relationships. Because they're unspoken, people assume that you know that this is the appropriate thing to do, and so they feel as though you've slapped their hand one too many times when they extended it out and tried to be friendly by inviting you out or by asking you to do whatever, whereas your understanding is "I'm just here to work and go home," and so in order to bridge the gap of those two work cultures, I would say that there is no better time than now to start reaching out. And people love talking about themselves. It's not, like, a moral failing. It's simply just human nature. Like, when people start taking interest in the things that you enjoy and the things that you feel proud of, it makes you feel closer to the person asking. So Tracy, I would advise you to--not us asking you to, like, do any social engineering, but getting to know people by asking them about the things that they love and the things that they enjoy, and also with the understanding that we are not saying that that means that you need to go attending Happy Hours or that you need to extend yourself any further than necessary, simply that it is a mark of a good professional to be able to maintain good working relationships, regardless of the depth of those relationships. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense, and that's just a really good reminder, even for me. Not even for me, like I'm somebody. For me, because--Ade: [laughs] You are somebody, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Aw, thank you, Ade. But no, it's important, like, to make time and to, like, do the rounds. 99% of the time--99% of the businesses that we work in are people businesses. There's some type of people element to it, and even if they're not, like, external clients, if they're just, like, your own colleagues, there's relationships that you need to be continually thinking about in how you manage them. So that makes sense to me. I think it's super spot on.Ade: Cool. Cool, cool. Thank you for writing in, Tracy. We hope that you get a resolution to this soon, and we'd love to hear from you, see how you dealt with this, how you handled--how you handled this conversation.Zach: For sure, for sure. Okay, I see this next one. This one is called--the subject line is "Micromanager." Here we go. I'ma go ahead and read it. Actually, no, do you want to read this one? 'Cause I read the first one. Why don't you read this one?Ade: Sure, okay. All right. "Hey, Living Corporate. So I've been at my job for about two years now and recently got a new manager. They're nice enough, but are nonstop with the feedback," ooh, "as if they have something to say about every little thing to do, from checking my work, how I present and lead meetings and my body language. They're also asking me for their feedback, like, every other week to the point where I don't know what to say. I just am feeling overwhelmed. A part of me wants to tell them to back off, but I'm not trying to cause any trouble. What do you think I should do? Thanks. Courtney."Zach: Hm.Ade: Go ahead, Zach.Zach: So they're nonstop with the feedback. "I feel like they have something to say about every little thing I do, from checking my work, how I present, lead meetings, to my body language." So when I read this, and maybe I'm reading this from, like, a manager lens, right, so I could be wrong, it sounds to me like you have someone who's really engaged and they're trying to help you, right? And then when you say "They're also always asking me [?], like, every other week." So every two weeks they're asking you to give them feedback, so they're looking for you to help them, just like they're trying to help you. Are you just not--maybe you're just not used to being managed. Like, this is kind of weird. This is kind of weird to me. How do you feel? You're making all of these noises, and you were making noise when you read the letter, so, like, what am I missing here?Ade: Okay. I wouldn't necessarily say that Courtney is not used to being managed. I think that there are two conflicting styles here of working relationships. I think that Courtney's new manager is used to, to borrow PwC's phrase, "real-time feedback," and Courtney might be a little bit more used to a more hands-off style type of management, and that will--that will create conflict, but I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. I don't know that anybody is wrong here so much as miscommunicating, because it can be overwhelming to go from a very, very hands-off managerial style to someone who is seemingly in your face all of the time. That can be a very difficult experience. I know that I would be frazzled. I was frazzled when it happened to me, and I certainly think that--and I'm not saying that the manager is wrong either in saying that, "Oh, hey. I noticed that you do things this way. Maybe you should try this way instead," because ultimately most managers who are worth their salt are trying to help you develop your career and help you grow as an individual. They are not being malicious in their feedback, but nobody likes to be micromanaged, and that's likely what that feels like to Courtney. All that to say that I think that there are ways in which you can communicate that you feel overwhelmed with the deluge of information. Maybe you could schedule checkpoints every two weeks with your manager. Like, "Hey, let's go grab some coffee every two weeks for 30 minutes. We can have a conversation about my progress so far. We can talk about what you think I should be doing differently, but the constant check-ins are distracting, they're demoralizing, and I don't feel that they are actually helpful to me."Zach: That's real. You know, so, I'm looking at this email. Like, every other week the manager's asking them for feedback. 'Cause I don't know Courtney. I don't know if Courtney--Courtney might be a man or a woman, I'm not sure--asking them for feedback, right? So, like, asking them for feedback. Like, maybe that's where they can propose this. Like, that's where they can propose like, "Hey, look." Like, being really transparent, right? Like, "Hey, this is how this is making me feel. We have this time already." Unless it's something that's, like, a serious problem, like, "Unless it's something that's, like, gonna break--make something break, like, could we wait to kind of give me feedback during these points?" Typically, I'll say for me anyway, sometimes when I know that I'm micromanaging somebody, I realize that, like, I'm giving them feedback every little step of the way as opposed to, like, backing up and letting them, like, drive something, and then I can be like, "Oh, wait. I was gonna say this, but you ended up doing this anyway." "I was gonna say this, but you ended up--okay, so I don't even have to say anything about this," right? Like, I think that that makes sense. I think there is definitely opportunity, and if they really are being serious about this 360 feedback, I think that's the perfect place to give it to them then, but that's gonna take some vulnerability and, like, courage on your part, right? And you say in here, "Part of me wants me to tell them to back off, but I'm not really trying to cause any trouble." I don't feel like you're causing any trouble, right? I think it's about just being respectful, and nothing in here, what you've said, is that they've been disrespectful to you, so I'm gonna assume that everything has been above the board so far, that it's been, like, work. But that's what I would suggest, and yeah, I'm not trying to be unfair and say that you're not used to being managed. I guess what I'm saying is because of my work history, I've been in so many situations where, like, my lead does not care. They won't communicate with me. And I'm on a project now where I have a very engaged manager, and they really, really are plugged in, and they care about, like, my growth and my progress, and they give me, like, really poignant feedback, and it has felt at certain times overwhelming, but I had to ask myself, like, "Okay, how much of this is overwhelming because of I'm just getting too much feedback? How much is overwhelming because it's like, 'Wow, maybe I haven't really ever gotten, like, on-the-spot coaching about my performance before and, like, I'm just not used to how this feels.'" Like, maybe it's just a new feeling as opposed to me putting it on somebody else, you know what I'm saying? So that's what I mean when Courtney's like, "Okay, well, is this like--" How much is this just a new feeling for you that you need to navigate and, like, work through? That might take you time, and how much of this are you really feeling like they're micromanaging you? That's my take, but I feel like--I feel like we're still saying something--are we saying something different? Like, what do you think about what I'm saying?Ade: I think that it's entirely possible that it's both in that--I think we're actually saying the same thing actually, that the truth is somewhere in the middle, that Courtney might not be used to this person's managerial style, they might not be used to this instantaneous feedback, and that this manager's feedback might be--managerial style might be a little overwhelming, particularly for someone who has been in their position for two years and is switching contexts between two managers, and so I think that as a manager you do have to be mindful of the context and the role in which you step--like, the people who you're managing have had different contexts over time, and I think that it's only fair that you ramp up not coming with guns blazing. And it might not feel that way to you because you're simply doing what you've always done, which is "Oh, hey, I saw this. We should work on that," or "Oh, hey, I think you'd be a much more effective presenter if you did things this way." Which, fair, that's absolutely what you're supposed to be doing, but to manage up, Courtney, I would say that you should definitely take some time to sit down and figure out truly what are the things that make you the most uncomfortable, and then figure out how to make those things work for you, because if the feedback is meant for you to grow as a professional, there's no way that it can be a terrible thing to hear it. However, it's entirely true that it might be overwhelming for you when you're in the middle of deliverables and also trying to incorporate the last six things that were said to you in the last two days. So I would say that for me it would be much more effective to manage up in putting time on your manager's calendar, like, "Hey, every two weeks, let's go out, get some coffee or grab some lunch, and we can talk through my progress over the last two weeks and some areas you would like to see me improve, and we can iterate over my behavior in that way or my progress in that way as opposed to you sending me a note every, you know, three hours, because that's jarring."Zach: [laughs] Every three hours? No way. No way.Ade: Right, it's a little bit much, and not that I don't appreciate you paying close attention to me and my activities, but it does make me feel a little bit monitored and micromanaged, and I can't succeed in that way.Zach: No, that's real, and I mean, like--I'm agreeing with you, right? I agree with that. I think--and I think what's really cool is that two--every two weeks, that can just be the two weeks I already have set up, and yeah, so that's great. I think that's really good feedback. So Courtney, hope that helps. Let us know how it goes. Keep us updated on the progress. I definitely think the term "managing up" is important, 'cause this is part of it, this is a huge part of it, is you having this discussion with your boss, and it seems as--your lead, your manager, and it seems as if--I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at it through--I'm being biased 'cause I'm looking at it through, like, a manager lens, but it seems as if this person at least--I mean, the communication is there, right? It's not like you're having to create a lane of communication, so hopefully it should work out. We'll see though. Hm. Okay. All right. All right, y'all. Well, that does it for us on the listener letters. Let's see here. So I have one Favorite Thing, and I recognize that we did not talk about this in pre-production, so if you don't have one it's no big deal. But it's been a couple of weeks, right? So I just want to, like, really quickly--so, like, I feel like I can now talk about Avengers: Endgame. Very good, right?Ade: No spoilers.Zach: No, no. Definitely spoilers. It's been two weeks. It's been, like, two or three weeks.Ade: No spoilers. What? No. Don't be a terrible person.Zach: How am I being a terrible person? It's been mad weeks!Ade: No spoilers! None.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Man, I was about to say--I was about to be like, "And when So-and-so did the such-and-such!" I was just--Ade: I require more of you than you are giving me right now, Zachary.Zach: Man, that's real, that's real. Okay, so I'm not gonna get into spoilers. However, great, great movie. In fact, let me tell y'all what happened. So opening weekend, right?Ade: Oh. I was about to be like, "Didn't I just say?"Zach: Nah, nah, nah. So opening weekend, right? I planned on going Thursday night, but then I had a really busy day on Friday, and I was like, "You know what? Let me be wise and just, like, let me be mature, and I will wait," so I waited. I did not go Thursday night. I ended up going Friday night instead, and man, when I tell you that I was so emotionally overwhelmed. Like, I cried. I cheered. I cried again. I cheered again. I gasped, like, multiple times. I was like, "Man." And so I had already, like, proactively got tickets for Saturday AND Sunday, and I was like--'cause I just know I'm gonna want to see it again, and the theaters are sold out, but I was so tired--like, I was so drained by that movie and the multiple conversations I had--again, I'm not gonna get into spoilers. I was so drained. I was just like, "You know what? Let me just not." I've only gone to see it once. Like, that's how drained I was, 'cause I was just--I cried. Like, it was just so good. I've never seen a movie--like, it's just the culmination of more than 20 films, man. Like, come on, dogg. Like, that's a lot of work. It was so good. Like, you saw it, Ade. Am I tripping? Was it not great?Ade: It was amazing. Amazing.Zach: It was so--like, my gosh. It was so good.Ade: Amazing.Zach: Ugh, so good. So anyway, that's my favorite thing. I hope that y'all go see it if you haven't already, and then also, you need to go ahead and just cut the cable and go ahead and get that Disney+, 'cause y'all know all these shows about to come up. And again, I can't get into the spoilers 'cause Ade told me not to, but there's gonna be a bunch of other stuff coming, and--Ade: I'm just gonna--I need your login information, Zach. Thanks in advance.Zach: You are wrong. [both laugh] You know, it's so funny. Like, everybody has Candice and I's login. Like, I go on my little Netflix and my Hulu, I see, like, 17 accounts. I'm like, "Who are these little profiles?" Like, what is this? Come on.Ade: You're the grown up. I don't know what to tell you.Zach: Clearly. My goodness though, and some of them--some of them created profiles when they were, like, you know, in college, but, like, come on, man. Like, we all got money now. Y'all need to go ahead and help. Get your own, you know what I mean? Anyways.Ade: Chip in.Zach: Chip in, exactly. Put in on this, you know what I'm saying? You know, put 5 on it. That's all I'm trying to say. So okay, with that being said, I feel like we're at the end. So Ade, is there anything else?Ade: Nope, that's it. I actually was gonna use Endgame as my favorite thing as well. I've seen that movie several times at this point, and yeah, y'all watch it so we can talk about it in two months.Zach: Straight up. Okay, well, I guess that's that. Thank you for listening to us and joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. We are on all of Al Gore's internet.Ade: Everywhere.Zach: Everywhere. Just type in Living Corporate. Check us out. You type in Living Corporate on Google, we will pop up on every major player. You can check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporatePodcast. You can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And actually, on Instagram it's not @LivingCorporatePodcast, it's @LivingCorporate. Boom. Thank you. If you have any questions, any letters you'd like to send in on the show for us to read them like we did on this episode today, again, just email us, or you can DM us on Twitter and Instagram, 'cause our DMs are wide open. That's right. You don't even have to follow us. You can just DM us, but come on, be polite, 'cause some of y'all be out here wildin', okay? You know who y'all are. I'm not even gonna give you the air time, but you know. Let's see here. What else? What else? What else? Nah, I feel like that's it, you know what I'm saying? Grace and peace, afro grease or whatever else you use to keep your skin and hair lathered. You know, do what you do.Ade: [sighs] So much is happening. Um...Zach: This has been Zach.Ade: ...Yeah. This has been Ade. Y'all pray for Zach. He's going through some things.Zach: [laughs] Not at all, not at all! Listen, okay? Moisturization is important, and we're talking to people of color here. Come on. Like, you gotta--come on, let's go. Carol's Daughter or something. You gotta use something.Ade: [sighs] Goodbye, y'all.Both: Peace.

We have the pleasure of speaking with Chris Moreland, the chief diversity and inclusion advocate at Vizient. He explains why he puts inclusion first and talks about the top three things most companies are getting wrong when it comes to D&I.Connect with Chris on LinkedIn!https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisjmoreland/Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: It's Ade.Zach: So listen, y'all, we gonna get straight to it this time, 'cause we have a really special guest. I'm really excited. Today we have the opportunity--we had the opportunity rather to sit down and speak with Chris Moreland. He's the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient Incorporated, based out of Dallas, Texas, and I'm just gonna read a little bit of his profile so we can kind of talk about what we're talking about today. Known for possessing a contagious regard for winning, a bias for action and a healthy disrespect for insurmountable challenges. A street-smart C-level leader with a diverse industry background, an indispensable partner for innovative organizations, people development, and building teams. Chris is best known for leading organizations through change, developing innovative solutions, and deciphering ambiguity. He established a track record of performance and execution at Fortune 500 icons like Vizient, Microsoft, Expedia, General Electric, Johnson & Johnson, Pepsi, and Mobil, okay? So this person that we got to speak to today, he and I had an amazing conversation about inclusion and diversity, and in the conversation that you're gonna hear, you'll hear why he puts inclusion first, but we're really excited and want y'all to hear the whole interview, and so we don't want to make it too long by, you know, adding to it, so--Ade: We're gonna keep it short and sweet.Zach: That's right, we're gonna keep it short and sweet. So unfortunately, Ade, no Favorite Things this week.Ade: Nope, but we have an amazing, amazing, amazing interview, so it's good.Zach: It's dope. And after the interview, you know, we'll wrap from there, but the next week we've got a B-Side, and it's me and Ade talking about the interview, talking about D&I, and, you know, having fun. Hopefully y'all laugh. Maybe y'all will cry. Maybe you'll laugh and cry at the same time. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe. [strange noise]Ade: What was that noise? [laughs]Zach: It was like a [strange noise]. It was a shrug. That's, like, a shrug if I was to put a noise to it. [again]Ade: I'm gonna pass on your sound effects skills once again.Zach: Man, my sound effects skills are fire, but that's okay. In fact, you know what? Hold on. JJ, go ahead and give me some air horns, one time for ya head top, for Chris Moreland, 'cause he gave us a fire interview. [imitating air horns] Let's go. [JJ drops 'em] I'm giving him the air horns before we even get to the interview. That's how fire the interview was. What's up?Ade: Look, I don't disagree. Shout-out to Chris. Amazing conversation.Zach: Shout-out to Chris.Ade: You on the other hand are a walking dad joke store.Zach: Yo, I really feel like--so watching that movie Us, I really feel as if that character that ya mans was playing was really just me in, like, five years with no beard, but that's me.Ade: Like, Winston Duke's character?Zach: Yes, I feel like that's me.Ade: I have not heard great reviews, so you probably should not--Zach: No, first of all, Us is fire, and we can talk about that later.Ade: Well, not--you know what? Yes, let's close this out.Zach: So shout-out to Chris, shout-out to Vizient, and yo, shout-out to him being the chief storyteller at Storyteller's Consulting. He's gonna talk a little bit about that in the interview as well, and we'll make sure we have all of this information in the podcast notes, but look, until next week, it's been Zach.Ade: And this has been Ade.Zach: Y'all check out this interview. Peace.Ade: Peace.Zach: And we're back. And so as we shared before the break, we have Chris Moreland on the show. Chris, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Chris: I'm fantastic. Thanks so much, Zach.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself and how you got into your field?Chris: Absolutely. Well, my name is Chris Moreland. I reside in Dallas, Texas, and I am now the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient. Vizient is basically a supply chain company that does GPO for health care systems. We do about 100--maybe 105, 110 billion dollars worth of hospital spend on an annual basis.Zach: That's awesome. You know, I guess for me--so let me just say as a quick aside, and this isn't even in my questions, but I just wanted to say it--it's really inspiring to see a person of color, and frankly a black man, in such a position of influence, and I'm just really excited to have you here. So I probably should've said that at the beginning. I don't really care. This is our show. I just want to tell you that I'm happy that you're here.Chris: It's good to be here. It's good to be here.Zach: Absolutely. So look, let's get into it. So I'm on this app, right, called Fishbowl, and it's an anonymous posting app for consultants. Every now and then diversity and inclusion comes up, and most are disillusioned by the topic because it's being seen as a lot of talk and very little walk. So what do you think are some of the top three things most companies are getting wrong when they talk about diversity and inclusion?Chris: Right. That's a really good question, Zach, and it's not a simple answer, but I'll try to simplify the answer. There are several things that companies are not getting right, and if you--if you look at the most recent research, I think it points to some very important things that I think, going forward, we really need to focus on. The first thing is that most companies tend to put diversity and inclusion into the bucket of human resources as though it is part of a function which is different than the function of marketing, which is different than the function of, you know, research and development, which would be different than the function of sales. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes, by putting it specifically in a function. The second thing that I think goes wrong often times with the way companies approach diversity and inclusion is around--they use education as a way of changing behaviors, and we can talk about this a lot more later, but education has been proven now as being the least credible way of changing a human being's behavior, okay? And then the third piece, which I think a lot of people get wrong as far as diversity and inclusion, is how they think about diversity and inclusion relative to accountability. It's one thing to talk about it, but it's a whole 'nother thing when no one ultimately is accountable for the changes that they would like to make relative to diversity and inclusion.Zach: Expound upon that a bit more if you could.Chris: Absolutely. So the first piece around which function generally owns diversity and inclusion, and that being human resources. The reason why that normally doesn't vet out very well for companies is that the organization then feels like their [?] human resource officer is ultimately responsible for diversity and inclusion, and that's an error. Diversity and inclusion should be part of every function. It should be part of the culture of the organization. It should not be quarantined off into a specific function, because it should flow just like values, just like goals, just like culture. It should be part of the way we do business. It should be used as an enabler, not as a functionally-constrained part of an organization. You know, the second piece, which points education--education, as you know, is something that people try to use to make different decisions and result in different behaviors, but as you know if you've ever gone to church, if you've ever seen students in school, education doesn't necessarily mean that once a person knows what they should do, knows the right thing to do, understands the impact of certain actions, that they are going to then adopt those habits, those practices. Each of us go to church every Sunday, and we--depending upon what denomination you may be part of, but you can see the same church crowd that sits in the pews on Sunday, they go out and cut each other off in traffic immediately following the service in some cases, and so it's--you know, it's a bad way of thinking that "I'm going to change the behavior by telling you the right thing to do." And in the last piece, which is what I call just accountability, is that, you know, again, if it's in HR, a lot of times HR feels accountable solely, but no one else in the organization feels as though they have any accountability. They feel as though it has been quarantined off and thus there is a function that is accountable for it, but that is the only function that ultimately becomes accountable for it in that instance, so yeah.Zach: Man, that's incredible. When you and I first met, we talked about diversity and inclusion, and you told me--you said, "Zach, you know, a lot of times people get those letters--the order of those letters wrong, and they should be putting inclusion first." So let me ask you this - what does inclusion really mean practically, and how can companies actualize inclusion in the workplace?Chris: Right. So inclusion, in my title and at least at Vizient, we actually put that word in front of diversity, because inclusion has more to do with the actions that you are taking. Inclusion has to do with "Who's in the conversation? Is the conversation being had? Does everyone's perspective, opinions, and backgrounds matter? Is there value seen in my difference?" Not "Am I different?" Diversity, which really comes from a Latin root word meaning "divertere," or "to divert, to separate." It's the differences between us. It's pretty much meaningless in any organization unless you have the inclusion part first, and the inclusion means that I see you, I see your differences, and I see the value in those differences, and ultimately I don't want to move forward with any decision, with any strategy, with any proposal, until I get all different sides of this idea understood and heard, because understanding that when I am inclusive I actually get a much better outcome. It should always precede diversity. Diversity by itself is pretty meaningless unless it is preceded by inclusion.Zach: Yeah. No, absolutely, and so I'm curious - what methods have you seen that are effective when it comes to organizations really leaning into the inclusion piece of their I&D strategy?Chris: Right. That's a great question, because there is a--there is a huge difference. It's like night and day when it comes to organizations and effectiveness of those organizations when you do lead with inclusion. A couple of practices. One, there is--there are very few human beings that I've met thus far who are openly and consciously biased. In other words, open and conscious bias means that I see you, I see your differences, and I am absolutely just going to deliberately exclude those differences from my decisions, from my thoughts, from my practices, from my campaigns and everything else. When I lead with inclusion, what it does is it says I understand that I have this subconscious, this subliminal, this unconscious ability or need or desire to assimilate with those things that look similar to me, and we all have this in our personalities. We all want to assimilate with like things. We want to be around people who look like us, act like us, talk like us, have the same backgrounds as us, because it makes us more comfortable, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in order to actively have an inclusive culture, you have to understand that it's an uphill battle. It goes against our natural tendencies, and so when organizations actually adopt a truly inclusive culture, it doesn't start with just education, making people aware of the subconscious knack to go away from things that are not like you. It actually does more than that. It goes to creating an understanding of what those differences are and why and how those differences can and should be used to create greater value. I'm not talking about, in this case, educating you on unconscious bias. I think you may remember more recently in the news Starbucks had a situation with one of their restaurants, and they shut their stores down for an entire half-day, and what they did was they focused on educating people on unconscious bias. So there was a training that was done around unconscious bias, and the net effect of that training based on all research is that it had a shelf life of about 90 minutes.Zach: 90 min--an hour and a half?!Chris: 90--an hour and a half. It had a shelf life of 90 minutes, but then our natural, innate tendencies go back to exactly the way we were before we were exposed to that education and training. And so the good thing is that they at least acknowledged that there needed to be something done. The bad thing is that they're using the same tools that we used in 1962, in this country, in order to make civil rights the rights of everyone, and you can see, you know, 50 some odd years later, the outcomes are the same. It's because the techniques and the practices are the same. A lot of it is education, and then the second piece to that is legislation. So when you educate and legislate, you believe that, "Oh, things are going to change." They don't change. These are behavioral tendencies that we have to tap into in order to try and counteract things and make people's behaviors actually change.Zach: Well, see, it's interesting that you say that because--in terms of the historical lens by which you're looking through to discuss inclusion and diversity and facilitating change, because I don't necessarily know if I--if I see a lot of the historical narrative being engaged when we talk about effective methods and approaches to really driving inclusion and diversity, and often times, in my experience, these programs rarely even engage the subject of race explicitly, even to the point where they may create, like, different points of diversity. Like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, and yes, I'm not saying that those points don't exist, Chris, but historically, like, those points, they're strongly interwoven with the intersection of gender and ethnicity, right? But I don't know if I necessarily 1. see a lot of invoking of history when we talk about education and effective methods moving forward in the future, and I don't know if I see a lot of--in fact, sometimes I hear diversity of thought or diversity of education or diversity of background really used as replacements for diversity of race and intersection between--intersectionality of gender and race. Have you seen that? And if you kind of see where I'm coming from, why do you think that is?Chris: Yeah. So let me answer both questions pretty quickly, and then I'll get into a little detail. So the answer is yes and yes. Yes, I have seen it happen. Yes, it is very, very frustrating, and yes, I do understand why it is happening the way that it is happening, because--first let's go back to the terms of diversity and inclusion and why most people tend to use the word diversity preceding the word inclusion. It is because it is a lot easier for me to point out all of the differences between, you know, the 7.5 billion people that are in this world. I can tell you there are differences for all of us, and we should all be aware of and appreciative of all of those differences, but let's think about that at a neurological level, because that's where change happens. It happens at a neurological level. So Zach, if you walk into a room, and a person who walks into a room--and you're originally from where, Texas?Zach: Yes.Chris: Okay, so you're originally from Texas. So you walk into a room, and then right next to you a straight Caucasian male walks into the room, and his background just happens to not be from Texas. Let's say he's from L.A., okay? So he has diversity of experience. You have diversity of race. You both walk into the same room, and you're both seen by a group of executives that are sitting around the table that you're about to engage. Sitting around that table, what do you physically think the reaction will be of your presence versus your male straight white counterpart's presence who just happens to be from L.A.? Both having diversity, you know, based on just them walking into the room. And again, the audience--let's say the audience is full of Texans, okay? So if you--go ahead. Please answer that question, and then I can go on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, I think--I think that if it's all Texans and they are, let's say, all white men, I think they're gonna gravitate and presume that the white--my white counterpart is the more senior, more competent authority in the space.Chris: Exactly. There are a certain set of assumptions that go into your brain, in other people's brains, the second you or I walk into a room. The second you or I walk into a bus, the second you or I walk into an elevator. And again, I do not blame the neuroscience behind the minds of the individuals who make assumptions as soon as you or I walk into a room, but it is very different when I used the word diversity talking about race versus when I use the word diversity and I talk about a person's background or a person's education, because certain people have certain assumptions that are attributed to their physical being. They can't help it. You can't help what I think about when I look at you as you walk into a room. You have no control over that. It's just like the white straight male from L.A. cannot help what I may think about him when he walks into the room, but some of these assumptions, some of these thoughts, some of these implicit biases are nothing--they have nothing to do with who's standing in front of you, okay? So I think--going back to your question, I think a lot of times--in the field of diversity and inclusion we've now migrated away from the cornerstone of diversity and inclusion, which had everything to do with gender and race, and we've migrated now to diversity of thought, diversity of background, diversity of experience, diversity of a lot of different things, and I'm not saying any of those things are wrong, but I am saying that neurologically, when I think about the word diversity, the reason why I believe we have to go back to the cornerstone of diversity, which has everything to do with gender and race, because of that reaction when you walked into the room with your white male counterpart. Until I can get this country and individuals in corporate America past the fact that they have no control over that implicit bias associated with that initial impression, then I cannot move forward and start thinking about other forms of diversity because there is an implicit association associated with just your physical presence that, quite frankly, has a stereotype associated with it, and it has a whole set of thoughts and assumptions associated with just your physical presence, which is where I think the work needs to be done, which is where I think we need to start building from.Zach: So you've made mention about making authentic connections and those neuropathic pathways. I'd love to hear more about that. When we first spoke, like, you talked about that. I'd love to hear more about that, because as you and I know, the real change happens at the executive level. So one, please expound a little bit about those pathways and those genuine, like, connections, and then what methods have you seen be effective in driving that sort of openness to be connected outside of one's comfort zone at, like, the top and highest of levels?Chris: Wow. So big question. [both laugh] I'm gonna start with three words, and then I'm gonna dive into each of those words just briefly so I can uncover some of what you've asked. The first word I want to talk about is a word called covering. The second word, or words, I want to talk about is safe place, and then the third word that I want to talk to you about is change and change management, okay? And these are all different, but they're all connected. So covering, let's start off with that. The reason why men and women who look like you and I, who work in corporate America, spend a large percentage of their time covering is because we understand that there are certain stigmas associated with our physical presence and there's no getting around it. The reason why you or I might not necessarily be as open to talk about some of our childhood experiences in the corporate setting is because we do not feel as though they are appropriate, and so we hide them, we cover them. Covering is an actual term that was coined back in the mid-'60s by a sociologist who talked about stigmas associated with all different types of people, and we all have them, you know? Straight white men also have the habits of covering, but they are a lot deeper when it comes to some of the underrepresented races in this country. So if you're either foreign background or of a heritage that puts you into a category as far as being called brown of some sort or shade in this country, you spend a lot of your physical energy covering, covering up who you authentically are, because you do not feel as though it's appropriate. You do not feel that you will have a good opportunity to assimilate unless you cover. And covering goes across the board. It's everything from how you groom yourself to, you know, as you're getting older, some of us, you know, color the gray hairs that may be popping out of our heads, and others of us cover even things like our bodies. Our bodies are a lot of times covered. There's a--the first billionaire female in this country made a billion dollars by covering women. It's the woman who started the SPANX brand in this country. The first billionaire woman under 40, I believe it is. SPANX. SPANX is nothing more than us having an openly bias toward a thinner physical person, and thus SPANX helps us do that, and so we like to cover the fact that we are not necessarily of a certain physicality, and we hide that through things like SPANX. So covering is where a lot of this starts. Go ahead. You have a question.Zach: I was gonna say--you were talking about SPANX. You know, it kind of reminds me of the first black--the first black female billionaire, Madam C.J. Walker, right?Chris: Absolutely, absolutely.Zach: Right? With selling perms and relaxers, right? Like, that was--I think that kind of falls into the bucket of covering. Please continue though. This is amazing.Chris: Yeah. No, you've hit something that is extremely important. I wasn't gonna talk about it because a lot of us suffer from this, but the reason why weaves, the reasons why straight hair, the reason why the European look for African-Americans in this country has been such a phenomenon and has made so many millionaires and billionaires in this country, is because of this thing called covering. When we view something as being the way that we need to better assimilate, we spend our entire lives trying to fit that image, trying to mold ourselves into the image of what we want to assimilate into. We bleach our skin. We straighten our hair. We change the way our body is shaped, all with an effort to cover who we actually are. So a lot of this starts with the idea of [or phenomenon?] called covering. Let me move to the second piece, which is safe space. Safe space is what your executive leaders at every major corporation in this country need to create in order for other people not to feel the need to cover. A safe space is basically an environment or a culture where inclusion is part of what they just do. Inclusion means that I am going to allow you to show up and be your authentic self because I think there is so much value in that. "Chris, I want you to come to work. I want you to dress, act like, be like, you know, fashion yourself after who you really are versus who you believe we want you to be, because we see value in that. We see and understand the value of your differences. We want to know who you are really, and through that story we're actually going to use it to create a better organization, a better company, a better culture." So the idea of creating a safe space can only be done when senior leaders see and understand the influence that they have on an organization and in a culture. If you've ever been in an organization where you felt like there were certain things you can't do, you can't say, certain ways that you just can't act--and not because they're inappropriate, but just because the leader, who creates the culture, has already deemed certain things as being inappropriate, and if you've been in any corporation in this country you know, depending upon which company you're a part of, there's certain things that are just not allowed, and those certain things often times are usually authentic parts of who you are. They're not abusive. They're not distasteful. They're just part of who you naturally are. One key example is my administrative assistant, who for the longest time had been wearing hair pieces and weaves and wigs and everything else, and she had been working for me for about two years, and she called me one weekend in almost a panic, and I answered the phone and I said, "What's going on? What's happening?" And she just happens to be African-American, and she said, "Chris, I'm going to text you a picture of me, and I want you to let me know if it's okay." I said, "Okay," and I thought it was--I thought it had more to do with clothing that she was wearing. She texted me a picture of her wearing her natural hair.Zach: Oh, wow.Chris: Wearing her natural hair, and she said, "Is it okay if I show up to work on Monday without my wigs?" And I said to her--and I'm not gonna use her name 'cause I don't want to embarrass her on this podcast, but I said, "Oh, my God." I said, "You look beautiful." I said, "You look like my sister. You look like my daughter. You look like my mother. You look like my friend. You look like the person who is my partner at work, and I love your authentic self." I said, "Do not ever feel like you have to cover who you are to show up at work." She says, "Well, I just wasn't sure if it was appropriate," and I told her--I said, "You are beautiful as you are. Please show up just like the picture has you," and again, all she did was allow her hair to be natural, and it was just curly, a little kinky, but it was the cutest, most beautiful picture I have ever seen, and since time she has worn her natural hair every day of the week.Zach: That's beautiful, yeah.Chris: Exactly. I could not make this story up. So as a senior leader, your job, your accountability, is to create a safe space so that people who are different can actually show up as themselves. The third piece that I would talk to you a little bit about is called accountability or change management, and when I say change management/accountability, what that to me says is that's, again, the job of the senior leaders in the organization, and that has more to do with if they show up as what I call Pepsi perfect, then they have already set the standard. If they do not or are not willing to show any humility or vulnerability, then no one else will feel like they can make mistakes or be vulnerable. They set the stage, the culture, for the organization and how the organization is going to evolve, and when they believe that they have to be perfect or show up perfect or set requirements such that there can be no mistakes, then you get very unauthentic, unengaged people showing up. The last piece of your question was methodology, and "Chris, how do you think we can use--what methodology have you used to try to create this environment of safety, this culture of inclusion and the ability for people to show up authentically?" And I'll tell you, it starts at the neurological level, and that is it has everything to do with your ability to articulate who you really are, and I call that story-telling. And the reason why I call it story-telling is because there is actually a neuroscience change that happens in your brain when you hear a person's story. When you take the time to understand a person's background, when you take the time to understand what has gotten a person to where they are in life, you change yourself. The reason why you change is for two things actually. One, the reason you change is because your brain doesn't know the difference between an experience and a story. So if I tell you a--if I tell you about a story, it is the same thing as if you were to experience it yourself. If I talked to you about my story of growing up in Cleveland, Ohio, and basically having to take two buses and a train to get to school every day and some of the experiences that I had going through, you know, high school and college, after I finished my story, Zach, you will neurologically change, because your body--your brain doesn't know the difference between my story and you actually experiencing some of that yourself, and so you get this flood of hormones that go through your body which actually change the neuro-receptors in your brain and make--because your brain has this thing called plasticity, you actually change. You feel different about me, and the reason why you feel different about me is because you see a part of you in me. Because it may be a completely different experience that I had in high school or college or even in the work environment, but as I tell you my story, you see yourself in me, and it brings you and I together. And it's not just you and I, it's me and the CEO. It's me and the chief marketing officer. It's me and the chief operating officer. So as opposed to that person or those people relying heavily on what they physically see when I walk into the room, when I tell them my story and I learn their stories, they can no longer look at me the same way because they have neurologically changed. We have created relationship where was none before.Zach: Wow.Chris: Yeah.Zach: [both laugh] Hold on. You know what I like about you, Chris? Well, I like a lot of things about you, but I like the way that you be--you be hitting, like--you be hitting [?] bars, and then you'll be like, "Yeah." Like, "That was fire and I know it. React to that." [both laugh] No, no, no. There's so much there, and I think--first of all, we're probably gonna--we're definitely gonna have to have a part two to this podcast because I want to get deeper. At the same time I don't want us to go have a two-hour podcast, but I do want to follow-up on something. So then when you're talking about creating these--like, sharing these stories and making these connections, you know, what are ways that black and brown professionals coming into an organization can facilitate that in a way that manages up? Like, what are ways that they could do that and help move the needle forward in their favor? What are ways that they could--they could share their stories and create those connections that would support and help them in their careers?Chris: God, that's a great question. So I'm gonna use a term which is based on education, which I told you at first that education does not necessarily change you, but I want to use this term from education 'cause you can start using it and applying it in your day-to-day. And it's a whole study and science around this thing called emotional intelligence, okay? So emotional intelligence, a quick definition of what it is - it's just your ability to take everything that's going on today in your life, Zach, everything that happened, you know, this morning--you know, you, you know, getting out of bed at a certain time, having to, you know, get certain things done, worrying about certain other things that probably lingered from the weekend--your ability to take all of those things that are just clawing and drawing at your attention and put them to the background and focus on Chris during this podcast. Your ability to do that is the quick definition of what emotional intelligence is. It's all of our ability to take everything that's going on in our lives and put it as a backdrop and to be present and able to listen to and serve the person who is sitting in front of us. So taking ourselves and putting ourselves secondary to another human being, but how does emotional intelligence actually help us as we're trying to create these inclusive organizations, to your point or your question, "How do we manage up?" We do it by being emotionally intelligent, and I'll give you a little bit more definition about how that application actually works at work. First of all and foremost, emotional intelligence is the best-correlated skill set to career advancement that there is. Let me pause and say that one more time. Emotional intelligence has the greatest correlation to career advancement than anything else. It is higher than IQ. You may get a job because of a high IQ. You get promoted because of a high EQ, and in this case EQ is emotional intelligence. And so how does that show up and how does that work? It works like this. As you get into an organization--and let's just say that you are different from an ethnicity or from a race-based perspective--first of all, all eyes are on you, and you probably know that if you've been employed by any of the major Fortune 1500 companies in this country, and because all eyes are on you, you get a lot of exposure that you had not even really anticipated or asked for, but the way you manage that from an emotional intelligence perspective is that you spend all of your time trying to find out and figure out what is going on with other individuals and people around you. One of the first things I did when I came to Vizient seven years ago--this is the truth--is that I went up to the CEO--first of all, I didn't take the job until I got a chance to meet the CEO, and I made that a prerequisite before I even came to the organization because I knew that the CEO creates the culture, and I wanted to figure out exactly what type of culture he had created. The first meeting that I had with him, the first thing that we talked about was his dress, the way he dressed, and the reason why we talked about the way he dressed is because he dressed the way I had always wanted to dress. It was very colorful. He had--you know, custom jeans on. He had designer shoes on. I mean, even to this day I can't afford everything that he wore, but it was so well put together that our first conversation was around his dress. I then wanted to understand how did he progress through the organization, so we had a really long conversation about the fact that he started out as an analyst, you know, 30 something odd years ago and then eventually was promoted up through the ranks of CEO. I found out about his wife and her background and the fact that she started out as a CPA. I also had many, many conversations with him about his son. He only has one son, and his son at the time was just about to enter college, and he had an incredible attraction to African art. I also found out that he spent a lot of time in New Mexico, and the reason why he spent a lot of time in New Mexico is because 1. it gave him a chance to get away from Texas, and 2. he was able to basically walk down the street and people really not know who he was or what he did. So he could kind of not have to be a CEO for those periods of time where he got a chance to get away. The reason why I tell you this story is because I immersed myself in understanding who he is, how he thought, how he worked, what was important to him, what his likes were and what his dislikes were, and as I did that, as I immersed in his life, he then paid the same respect to me. He paid the same respect to me, because he began asking questions about me and my story and what brought me to where I was in my career, in my life, in my work and everything else, and we built a very strong relationship. I'm gonna pause on that word relationship, because a lot of times the things that hold us back in corporate America, especially if we show up either from a gender difference or from an ethnicity difference, is that we don't take the time to form those relationships, and they have to be formed very selflessly. Very purposefully but very selflessly. You cannot walk into a relationship and expect a person to just automatically, you know, ask you about your family or your spouse or your education or anything else like that, even though that's a big part of your story. You have to first start out by asking them about themselves. I always tell people when they're about to go to an interview or if they're about to, you know, have a first conversation with another human being, and I tell them, "Use the 80/20 rule," and the 80/20 rule says that you should only talk 20% of the time, because when you're talking, you're not listening. When you're talking, you're not able to hear the story of the other person who is in front of you, who emotional intelligence tells you should be the center of your attention for that interaction. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense. For sure, for sure. So let me ask you this, because I'd like to get, you know, your prediction. Based on your expertise as an I&D subject matter expert, like, what is the future of I&D if it stays its current course?Chris: Yeah. I will tell you if it stays its current course--we've seen the current course trajectory for inclusion and diversity over the last 50+ years. We still have the same representation of minorities in CEO positions and board director positions and females in CEO positions and board director positions that we've had for the last, you know, 30+ years. That course has not changed. We have the same make-up as far as individuals who are moving into C-level jobs. We've got the same make-up that we've had, you know, for the last 35, 40+ years. That trajectory has already been put in place, and it continues to be there even though the demographics of this country have completely changed. As a matter of fact, if you're under the age of 18 right now, the majority in this country have actually become the minority and the minority have become the majority, but it doesn't mean--because the numbers are there, it doesn't mean that there will be change in organizations and corporations and boards of directors and people making key decisions. If you look across the world, we see where that phenomena has happened in other countries, where the minorities in a country are actually still in powerful positions over the majority of people who actually happen to be part of the organization or the countries, because they have not changed. They have not understood how to change the mindsets and really tap into the value of the vast majority of people who actually inhabit the place that they're at geographically. So the current trajectory has already proven out that it will remain the way it is, and the bad side, the down side of that trajectory, is that we don't have the ability to tap into one of our greatest resources, which is the true, rich diversity of people that walk into organizations every day, that walk into churches every day, that walk past you down the streets every day.Zach: Hm. That's a heavy--that's heavy, but this has been a great discussion, Chris, and, you know, before we wrap up, I'd like to know - are there any other projects that you're working on?Chris: Yes. Yeah, so the one--the latest project that is just unfolding at the conclusion here of 2018 has been a small I'll just call it boutique consulting firm that I just decided I'm going to create, because I don't see the current trajectory changing, and I said, "You know what? At the end of the day, one person can make a difference if they just figure it out and start doing it in a very meaningful way," and so I just started a small firm called Storytellers Consulting, and Storytellers Consulting has a lot to do with what we just discussed on this podcast, and that is teaching executives how to tell their stories and how to bring the stories out of the people who they work with and how to create inclusive cultures and how to create safe spaces and how to evolve organizations into becoming more inclusive. If there is nothing that is done at the neurological level, change will not happen, period. So here's my final thought on how change happens and why I know for sure this is true. So January. January is the most important month of the year for a lot of people, because they make a lot of promises to themselves. Most of us--most of us make promises like, "I'm going to lose that 10, 15, 20 pounds that has burdening me for the last, you know, 15 years of my life." That resolution lasts 'til about February 15th. I always give people right up 'til about Valentine's Day, and then the behaviors go back to what they used to be, right? And the reason why the behaviors go back to what they used to be is because change management requires for people to actually change neurologically, and the only way that that happens--let's call it for the sake of losing weight--the only way that you're gonna physically be able to lose weight and keep it off is if something triggers you to know that my behavior has to change or else there's either a consequence or else I see the benefit so much that I'm not gonna go back to my bad habits, and for a lot of people, those changes happen only when you get burdened with something like--something bad is gonna happen to you if you don't lose weight. Like, you get a call from the doc and they tell you the consequence of you not losing the weight. So short of that--because most people are not faced with that--short of that, we've got to change neurologically, which means that in order for me to physically make sure that you're going to stick to your commitments, I've got to explain to you in a way that makes so much sense that you are not gonna go back to your bad habits regardless of the temptation. The reason why this is so important is because, again, for most of us, we get off the diets by February 15th, and the reason being is because we've done nothing to convince ourselves that we have to be on that diet or we have to change our way of living. In diversity and inclusion, that neuroscience change starts with creating a relationship. The same exact thing would happen if you were to--as opposed to telling someone else that you're gonna lose a whole bunch of weight, if you signed up and created, let's say, a partnership with someone and said, "You know what? For the next year, you and I, three times a week, are gonna meet at the gym. We're gonna go together. I'm gonna hold you accountable, you're gonna hold me accountable, and we are going to change our lives together." When there is that partnership, that relationship, that neurological change inside of your head, inside of your body, it has a lot better of an opportunity of sticking, and so that's exactly what we want to do with Storytellers Consulting. That's exactly what we want to do when it comes to change management just in general across the country.Zach: This has been a phenomenal conversation. I just--I really appreciate it, Chris. Before we let you go--I know you just shared some--first of all, you've been dropping sauce this entire conversation, but do you have any final thoughts or shout-outs?Chris: Yeah. I guess the final thought or shout-out I have is 1. I really want to just let people know that one, there is no criticism associated with, you know, where we are today in this--in this country relative to diversity and inclusion. I do not feel like it is anyone's fault. I don't want anyone to, you know, hear this podcast and believe that, Zach, you or I are saying that there are so many social injustices going on in this country that, you know, this is just a throwaway or there is someone to truly blame for everything. That is not the message whatsoever. The message is that most of our current existence, most of our decisions, most of our behaviors, they are so subconscious, unconscious, subliminal, that we're not even aware of it a lot of times, and so all we're doing, all we're saying, all we're advocating for is for people to actually do things that are more consciously driven, and when you do things that are more consciously driven and there's a motivation and a methodology for you to do that, then we can actually make change, and that is exactly what we're advocating for, is that we just really think about this from a historical perspective, realizing certain things have just not been that effective, you know? The legislation that we did back in the '60s and, you know, all of the affirmative action pushes that we've done through the '70s and '80s, you know, as great as they've been, you know, to make people feel better, they really have not necessarily touched on the--on the real metrics associated with businesses and corporations in this country, and our organizations are missing out on an incredible opportunity to tap into what is now going to become the majority population in this country. And so again, my shout-out [?] to take a very introspective look and approach at what are we personally doing right now to build relationships that actually go beyond our racial differences, go beyond our gender differences and create true, meaningful, authentic relationships with other human beings by getting to know them at a neurological level. A lot of times, that is done through stories and through the art of storytelling.Zach: Chris, we definitely appreciate you being on the Living Corporate podcast today, and we consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back, man.Chris: Thank you so much, man. It has been a pleasure and a gift and a blessing. Thank you.Zach: Amen, man. Peace.Chris: Amen. All righty, be well.

The founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls Alicia Davis joins the show to discuss a very important topic: what to do when you're unemployed. She also relates her own experience with unemployment and shares effective advice regarding how to handle it. Connect with Alicia: LinkedIn, Cubicles & Curls website, IG, TwitterConnect with us! LinktreeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you're listening to a special B-Side. For those of you who are new here, B-Sides are essentially episodes we have in-between our more formal episodes, and they are even somehow more lit than our regularly scheduled content. That's right, more lit. Now again, this B-Side is special, because we have Alicia Davis, CEO and founder of Cubicles and Curls. Alicia, please introduce yourself.Alicia: What up? This is Alicia. I am the creator and founder of Cubicles and Curls, which is a blog or blog, you know, platform, for black professionals doing their natural hair thing, doing their career thing. We talk about hair care, we talk about hair styling, we talk about career advice. The whole thing.Zach: Come on, now. That's right, and it's special also not just because Alicia is here--that's plenty special of course, but because we're doing, like, an interview/collab episode. That's right. Alicia, why don't you walk through how we're gonna do this today?Alicia: All right. So today's episode is something that I felt was very important to talk about, 'cause we don't talk about it enough. We're talking about what to do when you are unemployed, and that could be, you know, you got fired, laid off, underemployed, you know, just haven't found a job yet. [Everyone?] goes through it at some point in their life, and we really wanted to get into the whole nitty-gritty of how that feels, what to do, how to look for a next job, and, just, you know, letting you know it's okay and it happens.Zach: That's a great subject. I'm excited about this because--you know, labor statistics show that non-white professionals are more likely to be unemployed and more likely to be unemployed for longer stints of time, so it's really important that we, I believe, have this conversation. Have fun with it of course, but really just address it, and address it courageously, because it's part of your career journey. And there's a quote here. Do you want me to read it or do you want to read it, Alicia?Alicia: Sure, I'll read it if you're talking about the Anna Wintour quote.Zach: Yes.Alicia: So Anna Wintour, who is the editor of Harper's Bazaar--sorry, no, I think she's the editor of Vogue. She used to work for Harper's Bazaar, and she said, "I worked for America's Harper's Bazaar. They fired me. I recommend they all get fired, because it's a great learning experience."Zach: For sure, for sure, for sure. So right, we want to talk about our experiences of losing jobs, what we did during unemployment, and what we did to find a new job. So Alicia, do you want to start or do you want me to start?Alicia: Yeah, sure. So I'll start.Zach: Okay.Alicia: You know, I would like to say that I've probably been unemployed a total of three times, under different circumstances. You know, once when I was in college. You know, another time it was just kind of, like, an issue of lack of work. You know, the company had to downsize. And another time I actually got fired. So, you know, those experiences really resonated with me, because, you know, something that I think we're ashamed of a lot, and one thing--when I was going through that at first I was just so down, but once I got out of it I kind of saw it for the gift that it was at that time.Zach: Yeah. No, for sure. So I was thinking about this--as we met of course and you proposed this topic, I was thinking "Okay, so I don't think I've ever been fired," right? And I haven't really ever been, like, asked to resign or anything like that either, but I do remember in college just not having a job and desperately wanting a job, and that journey of, like, getting into the workforce for the first time for real and trying to, like, prepare myself for a real career after college. I also remember--though I did not get fired and I wasn't asked to resign, I do remember quitting a job because the environment was so toxic, right? It was super racist, and I was getting called out on my name and threatened and things of that nature, which was, like, genuinely a dangerous and toxic environment, and I remember for about 3 or 4 months I was just, like, freelance consulting. I remember that, and that was a major part of my learning journey as well. So I'm excited about this for sure. And so then what did you do to find a job? Like, in those instances--Alicia: [inaudible] fired?Zach: Yes.Alicia: Oh, sorry.Zach: No, go ahead.Alicia: I said not everyone's been fired, but I think everyone faces unemployment, either after college or underemployment, you know? Sometimes things just happen where you're in-between jobs or, like you said, you quit 'cause you just can't take it anymore, and so I think at some point everybody goes through one of these phases where you're just, you know, in-between jobs.Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, something I've also realized is how big--so the gig economy, which is, like, a whole 'nother podcast episode, but in that same vein, contract employment, right, and working through temp agencies and contracting agencies where you're not, like, a--you're not your own boss, but, like, you're working through someone--you're working through an agency that if they don't staff you on a role, then you don't have any--you don't have any paper, right? And there's--that type of work lends itself to being underemployed for months at a time.Alicia: Exactly, and even if you are making paper you don't have benefits.Zach: Right, right. You don't have benefits, right. So yeah, I mean, let me ask you, what did you do--in those seasons of unemployment, what were you doing to find a new job?Alicia: Right. So the first time, you know, when I got laid off, my company was downsizing, you know? It just was a matter of how scared--I had moved out, like, boldly moved out of my mother's house for a year, and I was like, "I have to make ends meet." So, you know, I reached out to, like, my contacts. I was, like, really just kind of nervous about it, you know? And I found a job kind of quickly, just 'cause, like, I needed something to do. So I found a job. It was decent. I was like, "Okay, we can do this." It wasn't really what I wanted to do. It was outside of my field, but it was a job. It had benefits, and I was happy for it until, you know, finally it kind of came out that really that job wasn't gonna be a good fit, and, you know, they agreed it wasn't a good fit. We had to part ways. After that, I was unemployed for a year, but this time moreso voluntarily. I wasn't looking for a job at first because I really wanted to use the time--you know, 'cause prior to that I was unemployed for 2 months, and I was like, "If I ever find myself in that situation again, I'm gonna use the time a little differently." So I used the time to kind of reassess the kind of person I am, what my goals are, work on projects that I didn't get time to do when I was working full-time, and I was really--you know, I had saved up enough, so I was really just working to, you know, get myself ready to work and to come back to the workforce before I started looking for a new job.Zach: So those are great points, and it's interesting 'cause I think, for me, when I took a step away from that really toxic job, I was doing a lot of freelancing, like, contract work and kind of, like, staff agency stuff, and I really had to really take--for me, what I learned and what I really had to really pause and--there was a certain level of intentionality on my side of "Okay, well, before I just throw myself headlong into something else, what do I really need to, like--" 'Cause that was--I probably need to find some healing from that situation, right? And everybody who quits or leaves a job or--you know, it's not that it always is gonna be traumatic per se, but listen, man, leaving a job is hard. Like, even if you leave a job for something else that might be better, you kind of got to wash some of that old stuff off, right? Like, you need to--like, there needs to be a certain part of you that needs to kind of let it go. It's kind of like getting out of a relationship or--to be honest, right? Like, platonic or romantic.Alicia: Yeah, 'cause when I was [single?] I was like, "Am I describing my breakup?" Or "Am I describing when I left a guy?"Zach: And then, you know, also, you know, your living situation and your--you know, your savings and your severance and unemployment insurance, stuff like that. I mean, having those things lined up too. Thankfully for me, when I was doing the contract work and the checks were not as steady because I was freelancing and doing a bunch of different other consulting work, my wife had a job at the time, so--and because of the way that we had budgeted and we lived under our means, you know, nothing went under, by the grace of God, but it's important to think about those things too. So, you know, regardless of what they say, when you resign--when you leave a job, regardless if you leave--if you leave a job for another job or you leave a job just because "I got to leave"--people say "Don't make an emotional decision." Listen, it's always gonna be an emotional decision. You will never be able to, quote unquote, take the emotions out of it. There's gonna be some emotion involved with you transitioning away. At the same time, it's important to think through, like, "Okay, what are my plans once these checks stop," right?Alicia: Mm-hmm, yep. And, you know, to that it's really--one thing I want to tell people is if you're quitting, you need to make sure you have the financial means, but however if you're getting laid off, you might not have had that stacked up, you know? And one of the first things I did when I was laid off, I was like, "Well, can I get--" You know, talked about severance and all that stuff, and I was like, "Can I get unemployment?" And, you know, there's different--I don't know how it works in every state, but, you know, some states you have to have certain reasons. So if you're fired you might not be able to get unemployment, but if you're laid off you could, you know? So really that's a conversation--and it is emotional like you said, but that's really a conversation you do want to have with HR no matter what the circumstances and apply for unemployment right away if you can. If you can't apply for unemployment, you know, what I did too--you know, when I had left the second job that I got after I, you know, was laid off for a year, I actually applied to be an SAT teacher, because I was like, "Well, what other skills do I have?" And randomly I got an email, and it was from Kaplan saying, "Hey, do you want to do SAT teaching?" And I was like, "Oh, I can do that," you know? You might want to--like you said, you tapped into your freelancing. You know, think of some other things you can do with the internet. You know, there's so many opportunities to, you know, make a little money on the side to hold you over until you can find something else. And I really want to stress, you know, utilizing those resources as best as you can. If you're in your home town, you know, you might want to live with your parents. You might want to, like, rent out your apartment, you know, temporarily, Airbnb, whatever you need to do to make sure that you're stable, 'cause if you feel like you're drowning and you're on the verge of, you know, going into bankruptcy, you're not gonna be able to concentrate on getting better and healing.Zach: That's a good point, and it sounds as if really you were having to flex a few different creative muscles.Alicia: Mm-hmm. Yep, that's exactly what happened.Zach: And I think--which leads to another point. You know, not everyone is super creative and, like, industrious in that way, and so I think it's important to talk to people before you decide to leave, or if you know you're about to get fired or let go or there's some type of downsizing, have some trust and confidants around you that you can talk to as things are happening so they can maybe help you kind of navigate or they can point you in the direction of someone who can help you figure out how to--what the next season looks like.Alicia: Exactly.Zach: I know for me--I know for me, when I did leave--and I was depressed. Like, we've talked about mental health and mental wellness on Living Corporate before. I have no shame in saying that. When I quit that job, I was genuinely depressed and ended up gaining a lot of weight, and so--and did not take care of myself, and it took me--it took me some years to, like, lose that weight--and a little bit more, but to lose that weight that I had gained, and it was crazy because by the time, like, another opportunity came up that was, like, a great opportunity, and I got the job, but I wasn't in the best of shape. I wasn't at my best self, and so I think it's important as well, like, when you're in that season, that off-season, quote unquote, that you don't fall off, right? Like, go to the gym. Like, if you have--if you have some type of--whatever your belief system or structure is, pour into your local community. Like, continue to invest in yourself, that way when you show up at the next job you glowed up. Now, again, they hired you, so you have some level of [gold regards?], but for you to be at your best self--'cause I tell you, I regret not being healthier when I started my job, because I would've--you know, I would've enjoyed some things better. When I took business trips, I would have--I would have been more comfortable. I would have been able to explore the cities more, things of that nature, but I wasn't able to because I wasn't--I was not at a healthy--I wasn't physically healthy.Alicia: Yeah. And you know, I want to peel that back a little bit, you know? Like, when I was laid off as well, I was depressed, and, you know, I gained weight. I remember when I did have an interview I couldn't even fit into any of my suits, and I didn't have any money to buy a new suit 'cause I'm, you know, unemployed, but I really want to peel back. You know, a lot of people, when they find themselves in a situation, they do fall into these depressive episodes, and it's really important to--I mean, it's important to let yourself feel the emotions, but you have to tap into your support system, and I think a lot of times why we fall into those depressive episodes is because 1. because of the trauma of what happened and 2. because we assign a lot of self-worth to having a job, you know? I was embarrassed to go to, you know, events or leave the house 'cause I didn't want anyone to ask me "What are you doing? When are you finding a job?" Because I felt so ashamed to just not be having a job for the first time, you know? And I think it's really important. One of the things I did, you know, when I was, you know, unemployed the second time and I was using that me time was detaching my self-worth from what I do to get paid, you know? What my full-time employment is, and I think that's something, you know, a lot of people need their support system and help to get out of, and I think if anything I just really want to stress that part alone, that you are not your job. You're more than your job. Your job is gonna change 20 times over, and you're still gonna be that person you are.Zach: That's so true, and I believe--well, we live in a capitalistic society, and the cost of living is going up, and wages aren't necessarily matching the cost of living as it continues to increase, and so more and more folks are switching from work/life balance to work/life blend, because really our lives have become work, right? By some degree or another. That's why the gig economy is popping like it is. You know, a lot of people are doing full-time jobs and they're also Uber drivers and Favor delivers. Shout-out Favor, shout-out Uber. Y'all are not sponsors, but if y'all hear this, holla at your boy.Alicia: What's Favor? We don't have that here.Zach: So Favor is a food delivery service. It's kind of like--so y'all have Uber Eats, right?Alicia: Like Grubhub?Zach: Yeah, like Grubhub.Alicia: That's what we have.Zach: Okay. Yeah--Alicia: Okay.Zach: Y'all also have DoorDash though, right?Alicia: We do. We just got that.Zach: Listen, they getting all this free pub.Alicia: I know.Zach: But whatever, it's cool. Favor is similar to DoorDash. Anyway, it's hard not to disassociate yourself from what you do that keeps food on your table, but the more you can really align yourself with whatever--your family, your community, volunteer efforts, and things that really keep you going spiritually, mentally, emotionally, that's gonna help you, because if all you are is your job, and you lose your--Alicia: Zach? Sorry, you cut out real quick.Zach: Oh. Can you hear me now?Alicia: Sorry. Yeah, I can hear you now.Zach: Okay, cool. Because if all you have is your job and you lose your job, then what do you have? So it's important that you're always thinking about that, and I think we're in a really interesting season of self-care and mental and emotional wellness. I think those spaces have been rapidly growing over the past 6 or 7 years, especially for black and brown people, and so I think it's important, like, to invest in some things of that nature just while you have a job. Like, invest in those things while things are good, that way you're not scrambling if something changes.Alicia: Mm-hmm. It's all about foundation.Zach: It is, it is. So to your point though about, you know, being laid off or fired, it's not a mark of shame, and really there's only so much about you keeping your job that's in your control, and I think that's the thing about--there's a term when you talk about--oh, yes, job security. Yes, that's the term. So job security is a myth, but most people think "If I have a job, and I'm getting paid a salary, then I'm going to--" Like, "Nothing can happen that's gonna change me from having that job." Like, we are--we buy into a certain level of--we buy into a narrative that our jobs are extremely stable and that having a quote unquote "steady paycheck" is more reliable than, like, being an entrepreneur or whatever the case is, but, you know, the reality is unless you're, like, a VP, like, someone very senior at an organization, you're really only, like, one or two decisions away from you not having a job, right? And it's interesting as I've gotten a little bit older. Like, I'm 29, and as I've gotten a little bit older and I'm kind of moving up the ladder a little bit--I'm a manager, so I'm not in any real--I'm not making no real moves, but I see a few things differently now than I did at--like, when I was an associate or an entry-level employee, because I'm starting to see how things kind of move and push together.Alicia: Behind the scenes.Zach: Behind the scenes, and, like, when I was--and even before my current industry, which is consulting, I was an HR business partner, and I was working with the--like, with the CHRO. I was working with the COO of a start-up, and I was just noticing, "Okay--" There'd be people, like, three or four, five, six, seven levels under him, under me at the time, and in their world they're thinking, like, everything's hunky-dory, it's all great, blah-blah-blah. They don't know, like, their boss is about to get fired. They're about to get moved to a whole 'nother department. And the higher up you go, it doesn't seem like anything to you. Like, you have to really practice empathy as you get higher up because at the higher--it doesn't seem like anything to you, but to them, like, their whole world has changed, and so I'm just thinking more and more about that. Like, if you're an entry-level employee, if you're a non-executive employee, they can make one decision, and you end up moving from Department A to Department G or Department G to unemployment, and it's like that. So there's--it's not in your control. What's in your control is your attitude, your level of gratefulness, and how you show up to work every day, and then--and how flexible you're being and prepared you're being to find that next thing, but I think sometimes, because we buy into the fact that, like, these jobs are promised and that--and that things are just so secure that we can't fathom, or we kind of--I know I did. I'll speak for myself, that I really was shook when I walked away and I was like, "Wait, but I thought this was gonna work out. I thought this. I thought this. I thought that." You know? Am I making any sense?Alicia: Yep, absolutely, and I think that--I really like that emphasis of "it's not in your control," you know? You could have been the best worker, and sometimes it's just a numbers thing, you know? And I feel like once you accept that, you know--if you did your best, fine. If you didn't do your best and you got laid off, you know, really just take time to just learn from, "Okay, what could I change for next time?" I think that, you know, focusing on what you can control really can help prevent you from going into that whole spiral afterwards.Zach: And it takes a while. Like, sometimes it may take--you know, so for me, like I said, I quit that job. I was doing some freelance stuff, and I was underemployed for about 3.5, 4 months, and I've talked to people and they'll be like, "Man, Zach, that is no time." Like, "There are people who are unemployed, you know, 6 months to a year." It happens. Okay, so let's--go ahead, go ahead.Alicia: Well, I mean, speaking of that, you know, we should probably pivot into what do you do when you're unemployed and looking for that next job?Zach: No, that's super true. Okay, so figuring out what you liked and didn't like about your last position and crafting--can help you craft an ideal position and picture for your next job, right?Alicia: Yep. You know, I think a lot of times we either over-romanticize our jobs or over-demonize them, you know? So we're like, "That place was terrible," or "This is the best place I'm ever gonna work," you know? And I think it's really important to really think about what you did and didn't like about that job, and when you're going into interviews or applying to jobs, look for the signs. Again, it feels like I'm talking about a relationship, but, you know, I guess we spend so much time at work it might as well be.Zach: But it is though. You spend more time at work than you do with your family.Alicia: You do, exactly. So, I mean, I guess the same tenets apply here. So, you know, you might have really noticed, "Okay, this is what I enjoy about my position. I enjoy doing these things, and I don't enjoy doing these things." Sometimes I was even able to, like, look at job descriptions, and I could tell "This isn't the place." It wasn't gonna--like, you know, "can work without structure," you know? "Quick on her feet. Doesn't need much direction." And I was like, "So you're basically saying you don't know what you're doing, and you want me to come in and figure it out, and you're not gonna help me at all?" And I was like, "I'm good," you know? Like, you learn how to read in-between the lines after a while. I remember I said to one of my friends, "This job wants me to work 20 hours a day, I can tell." They didn't say it, but I know what "fast-paced environment" and "willing to go the extra mile" means, you know?Zach: Oh, wow. Mm-mm.Alicia: Mm-hmm. They're setting you up to be like, "This is gonna be hard," and if that's not something you want, you know, you've got to read in-between those lines. Even in the interview, you know, we get so scared asking people questions, like, the real questions about these positions, but that's your only chance to figure out if it's gonna be right for you before you get in there. So, you know, ask them, "Why did the last person leave?" You know? "What's the hardest part about this job?" You know? Or "What are the challenges of this job?" Or "Who do you think is gonna be a fit for this?" And be realistic with yourself of if what they're saying sounds right to you.Zach: Those are great--that's just great advice. You know what? Alicia, you should really have, like, a blog or something. Oh, wait! [both laugh] Okay. So no, you're right though, and it's also recognizing what your non-negotiables are, right? So for me, I know--like I said, I quit that one job 'cause it was just super toxic, but I've quit some other jobs too. Like, some of my first--I was working at a major retailer, and I realized that for me--I had to walk away from that job because the scope was way too small. Like, it was focused on a store. That was it. And so I knew that when I quit my--when I quit that job I said, "Okay, I gotta find a new job that's gonna give me more space to be autonomous and be creative and really flex some other muscles that I believe I have," and so a non-negotiable for me was working in the retail industry at a store level. Like, that was a non-negotiable--that was a non-negotiable for me. A non-negotiable was having an extremely limited scope. That was a non-negotiable for me, but you learn that after you reflect and think through what you did and did not like about your last place of employment. There's things I did like from that job, and so I took that things forward as well, but--we're just gonna keep on relationship references. Sometimes we have friends--and if you don't have any friends like this, then look in the mirror and then point at the mirror, and then you're that person--they kind of date the same person.Alicia: Mm-hmm, over and over again.Zach: Right? Over and over again. It's like, "Yo, like, you kinda got, like, a type." "No, I don't. I don't have a type." "Eh, you kind of have a type." And, like, you keep making the same mistakes with this one that you did with this one, so... and I bet your friend, or you if you look--the person looking in the mirror, you probably haven't, like, paused and reflected, "Okay, well, what is it that I like and don't like about this?" 'Cause there seems to be a pattern here. And a lot of us do that in our careers too. It's like--I have people who, like, they are serial careerists. They have--like, they'll take the same job and quit for the same reasons over and over and over and over. So it's really important that you're thinking through what's working and what isn't working.Alicia: Yeah, I agree. I agree.Zach: So this resume/cover letter refresh. Now, that's important.Alicia: Yes. So, you know, I thought my resume was pretty bomb. Like, I think my--I've always had a pretty solid resume, but you know what? I was putting out feelers, and I was getting--like, I was getting phone interviews, but I wasn't getting past the phone interviews, so I was like, "What's going on here," you know? Like, my resume's dope. One job, like, I matched it exactly. Like, and it was a pretty [inaudible] job, so I was like, "How could you not hire me?" Like, I am the one, you know? But what I did was I actually at some point got a career coach, 'cause one I was kind of not--like, I was ready to apply, but I was still feeling a little bruised from, like, you know, past experiences, worried. So, you know, a lot of the times when you're writing these cover letters, it requires you to reflect on your experiences at these past jobs, and sometimes that's causing you to live in the hurt and the trauma all over again, you know? Just writing the cover letter can be an ordeal 'cause you're just like, "Wow, that job was really terrible," and it's coming out into your cover letter how wishy-washy you were about that job, you know? So what I did was I actually got a career coach to rewrite my cover letter for me, you know? Like, I [hired?] her, and she gave me advice. She rewrote my resume, because one thing she said was, you know, "You're listing out the things you've done, but you're not really giving me that, you know, "I'm a star" kind of thing in your resume. You're mostly like, "I did this, I did this," but you're not really telling me "I accomplished this" or, like, "I'm the winner," or, like, "I'm the best 'cause of X, Y, and Z." It wasn't shining, and my cover letter was much of the same, more just listing things that I did but not really, like, spelling out why I stand out, you know? And she was teling me that, you know, I think that comes from a place of you trying to be over-humble, and you're trying to, you know, downplay yourself a little bit because you're bruised. And so, like, getting her to refresh my resume really--honestly, the results were instant in terms of call-backs, in terms of moving on to the next level, in terms of even just changing my interview style, 'cause I realized, yeah, you know, I was kind of--like, I felt like, "Okay, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am," because, like, I had been laid off before, but I was like, "No, I am as good as I think I am, and that was just an isolated incident," you know? And it's really just about your attitude, but sometimes you just need someone else to step in and do that work for you because it's too painful to do it yourself.Zach: Man, I just--I 100% agree. I think the other thing I'd like to add to the idea of a resume/cover letter refresh is a LinkedIn refresh, right? So, you know, LinkedIn is like the--I mean, LinkedIn first of all, as--I'm gonna put my futurist hat on real fast. So as millennials and Gen Z get more into the workforce and they start engaging LinkedIn, it's gonna become--and it has already, if you've noticed, become way more social and, like, almost kind of, like, Facebook in certain ways, good and bad, the point being that it's gonna become an indelible part of your identity, professional and personal. I mean, even if you Google someone's name, their LinkedIn pops up. Their LinkedIn pops up more than their Facebook does, and so, you know, make sure that you have a professional and accurate depiction of who you are and what you want to present on LinkedIn is huge too, because that can have instant results as well. I've seen certain companies--if your LinkedIn isn't popping it's kind of like, "Eh, I don't really know." Like, that can be the difference maker, to your point, between, like, a phone interview and, you know, an actual in-person--Alicia: Yeah, 'cause let's face it, everybody looks everybody up nowadays. As soon as I hear your name I'm looking you up, you know? "What can I find?" [laughs] So either--if you have a generic name you might be safe, but if you don't you better have that LinkedIn popping. And, you know, just real quick on that, you know, make sure your picture is great, or--you know, it doesn't have to be a professional head shot, but it shouldn't be, like, a selfie. It shouldn't be inappropriate. It should look like how you would probably come for an interview.Zach: It really should though. And I'ma say this, at this point--so again, a lot of this speaks to financial privilege and access. Everyone can't afford, like, a professional head shot. At the same time, these cell phones... really?Alicia: Right? [laughs] If you have an iPhone X, just go against a white wall and take that picture.Zach: Take that picture. Get a nice outfit, you know what I'm saying? Get some drip. Okay, side-note, 'cause we're in 2019, and Ade and I, we would insert slang in 2018, but we did not always give context to the slang, and I have--Alicia: Explanatory comma.Zach: Absolutely. And we have aspiring allies and non-black and brown folks who listen to the show, and people will hit me up and be like, "Hey, what does "the bag" mean?" And I'm like, "Oh, the bag is, like, the money and the wealth or the opportunity." Anyway, so drip--for everyone who's listening who doesn't know--so drip is your fit, right? So drip is not to be confused with sauce, which is more influence and swag. One can have swag and sauce but not have drip, and one can have drip but not have swag. So with all that being said, you'll be dripped out, right, in the picture. White background, iPhone X. It'll be great. Now--Alicia: As a friend of mine said, "Drip or drown."Zach: [laughs] Oh, that's funny to me. Yes, drip--Alicia: I think that's my favorite thing I've heard all year. [laughs]Zach: Drip or drown. You better--you're gonna have to drip or drown. That might be the subtitle for this little B-Side, Drip or Drown. That might be the hashtag, #DripOrDrown. And then the last thing, don't let desperation lead you to another job that won't be a good fit. That's real.Alicia: I think that's important, because you know what? I get it. Your bills are coming down. You feel like you need to get a new job ASAP. You really need to take--like I said, just make sure you're making the right decision for you. The money could look good, but, like, if it's something that's gonna make you be working 20 hours a day, and you're not the type of person that likes to work 20 hours a day--if it's something where you're gonna be working from home a lot or you're gonna be traveling, you need to make sure it's a good fit, else you're gonna end up quitting or they're gonna end up letting you go again, you know? Like, you really want to make sure that 1. this next move--a lot of times what people do is they'll start applying to any job. It's not even in their field, you know? But it's like, "Okay, well, I think I can do that." That's when you're getting desperate, and people can tell, you know? You really want to stick to what you want to do, 'cause, you know, you might be at that job for a long time, and if you want to be--Zach: You never know.Alicia: Exactly. If you want to be in consulting but you're taking a job over at hospitality, you imght end up staying there for a year, and now you have a year of something outside of your field on your resume, and you're gonna have to work to explain, you know, how it lines up, 'cause--what I always think is funny is, you know, people are very narrow-minded when they look at your resume, and they're really only looking at your last thing, and you have to do so much explaining. Like, I had a whole major in health care. All of my jobs were in health care except for one, and people only focus on the one that wasn't. And I was like, "I was only there for 3 months," you know? And it's so crazy how things like that--so that's what I'm saying. Being intentional about, you know, your next move, even if it means passing up, like, a bunch of other, you know, could be easy wins, you really want to make sure your next one is gonna move along in your career path and not just pay the bills.Zach: No, I super agree with that. You know, I kind of make--see, now, this is your fault, Alicia, 'cause you brought up relationships, 'cause now I'm thinking about all these relationship jokes. But it's kind of, like, you know, when you--you might have a breakup, but it's cold outside. Like, it's cuddle season, and so, you know, it's like, "Man, I gotta find somebody."Alicia: Oh, no. Yeah, don't get a warm body job.Zach: [laughs] Yo. Don't get anybody. Don't get a rebound joke is my point. Like, you've gotta, you know, find somebody that is going to put a ring on it or that you will put a ring on. I don't know. You know, everybody's proposing to everybody. It's no problem, no judgment, but the point is figure out what is gonna really be stable for you, 'cause--this is two things. First of all, people very much so underestimate time, and underestimate it in terms of how fast it can go by, and the fact that you can't take it back. So to your point earlier, you said about a year in hospitality. Like, you can look up, and you're gonna have--there are people who are like, "I got this job 5 years ago 'cause I just wanted something 'cause I got laid off and I was just trying to find something," and you look up and it's like, okay, this is your job now, and you don't like it, or you've been doing this thing for a year and a half, 6 months to a year, and then you try to interview somebody--you try to interview for what you really want, and people are like, "Okay, well, why were you doing this?" Like, what are you going to say? And not to say that you're stuck. I mean, it happens, but it's gonna take a little bit more work in how you craft your story and convince interviewers that, "Okay, no, I'm really actually interested in this." Now, I would think that folks with a modicum of empathy and logic would recognize that life happens and that we don't always find--land in the jobs that we want, but often times, like you said--like, it's weird. Like, people put on these weird blinders during interviews and don't always think about context and how just things shift and change and everyone isn't the same, but anyway, this has been great, this has been great. Alicia, what else do we have? Before we go--you go ahead.Alicia: Before I go, I just want to ask--the last question was, you know, if you're an interview and it comes up "Why did you leave your last job?" And it's not exactly an easy answer, that's something you want to practice ahead of time, 'cause that's always gonna come up, you know? You know, one of the things I said when I was laid off was, you know, "My company was going in a different direction. We were shifting from the work that I was doing to a different sector, and that's not something I wanted to do, so, you know, we agreed it wasn't a fit and I left." And another job, the one that I was there for 3 months, I told them, you know, it was a temp job, 'cause basically [inaudible]. It just didn't transfer over into full-time, you know? So don't lie, but have some sort of, you know, palatable truth into your interviews, and practice your answers so that you're not coming off nervous or, you know, it feels like there's something shady going on there. I think that's really important, but I do want to stress that most places, at least in New York--you know, your employer--your past employer shouldn't tell your next employer that you were fired, because that would mess up your chances of getting a new job. I think there's some legality to that.Zach: No, that's illegal.Alicia: Yeah. It is, right?Zach: It's illegal, yeah.Alicia: Exactly. So I want you to have that comfort in knowing that, you know, you kind of are getting a fresh slate as long as, you know, you kind of know how you're gonna work it. Don't feel like it's gonna be, like, a scarlet letter that follows you for the rest of your life.Zach: No, that's super true, and it's interesting because you really gotta figure out ways to politicize--not politicize, but politic that answer. So for me, you know, I was at a major retailer for, like, less than a year, and so even now--I'm 7 years into my career, and people will say, "Okay, well, you know, why were you here?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, that really gave me the--" Like, my answer now is "That really helped me baseline some HR knowledge and best practices. However, I realized that the scope of that retailing context was not conducive for my professional development, and so I ended up finding X, Y, and Z," and I just kind of transition. And I think it's also important, now that we're talking about just how you interview and walk through your career, that you have, like, a story and a overarching narrative that you're speaking to. So if you talk about it from that perspective, then you're kind of--you're talking about these jobs as just points in your journey and not necessarily "I was this, I was this, I was that." It's--for me as an example, I'll say something like, "My name is Zachary Nunn. I'm very passionate about people." And so you'll see in my career, as you look at my resume, all of the roles that I have involve people, and then from there I just kind of walk through the story of "I was here, then I was in oil and gas, then I was in pharmaceuticals. Now I'm in consulting," and it makes sense, as opposed to, like I said, having, like, a really segmented story, 'cause that's how people like to--that's an older way of thinking, but just remember we're transitioning now into a much more fluid workforce, and it's okay to be in different places and have different experiences, but--Alicia, to your point, I 100% agree that you have to have some practice and verbiage behind how you're gonna spin that.Alicia: Yep.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been dope, and like I said, this is the first one of its kind. This has been pretty fun for me. Have you had a good time?Alicia: I had a great time.Zach: Okay. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about Cubicles and Curls?Alicia: Okay. So you can learn more about Cubicles and Curls on our blog, CubiclesAndCurls.com, or you can follow us on Instagram @CubiclesAndCurls. Sometimes I'm on Twitter, and that's just @CubiclesCurls, but, you know, Instagram is definitely the place where you'll usually find me.Zach: Aye. Awesome. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com or living-corporate.co or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org.Alicia: Ooh.Zach: I know. Yeah, that's right, Alicia. We got 'em all. We don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia owns livingcorporate.com.Alicia: Hm.Zach: I know, right? It's crazy. It's crazy. Anyway, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Alicia Davis, founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls. Peace.Alicia: Peace.

Zach and Ade officially kick off Living Corporate Season 2 by announcing new… well, just about everything! New guests and blog posts, weekly tips provided by Tristan Layfield, and even new background music! They also discuss the expansion of Favorite Things and listener letters for Season 2.Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com or send us a DM on any of our social media platforms to submit your Favorite Things and listener letters!TRANSCRIPTZach: Ayo!Ade: What's good?Zach: We're back, we're back. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Living Corporate Season 2.Ade: Sure is.Zach: Season 2, let's go. Look, more intentional--is it more intentional? Does more intentional--is that grammatically correct?Ade: I--I do believe so, yeah.Zach: Okay, great. More intentional. Bolder. More fun. What kind of topics do we have this season, Ade? I feel like we've got some hot stuff.Ade: We do. So this season we're gonna be talking about interesting stuff like supporting black when at work, which I personally am a fan of. Being disabled while other at work, respectability politics. I mean, the real behind the helpfulness of HR. Being Latinx at work. We have a ton more content. We got some great feedback from the blog last season as well, so we're continuing that this year. Definitely, definitely, definitely make sure you check us out. It'll be on our website, living-corporate.com, and on our Medium page.Zach: In the off-season, right, we actually made some moves, okay? So we bought more domains, right? Okay, so we got livingcorporate.tv. We got livingcorporate.co. We got livingcorporate.org. We really have every Living Corporate. We have livingcorporate.net, right? We have every Living Corporate besides livingcorporate.com, because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Ade: Hold on. Now, this is the first I'm hearing of this. I have to fight Australia for--what?Zach: So it's a company in Australia, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they have livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other Living Corporates without the dashes, right, and the hyphens, so we're making these moves. Definitely excited about the blog. Like, that's gonna be great. Like, everybody isn't a podcast person, right? Like, we have this podcast. We love our podcast. The podcast is probably 90%, 95%, right, as we currently stand of what we have going on, but we want to better diversify our media offerings, because people engage in content in different ways, and we really believe in what we're doing. I would hate--I would hate for all the great things that we have going on to not be captured or not be absorbed rather. And speaking of more content and engaging people in different ways... some of y'all probably remember Tristan Layfield. Ade: Aye.Zach: Yes. He was a guest on the show last season on the episode--it was a B-Side for Landing the Job of Your Dreams. And he's a resume subject matter expert in terms of how to write them, and he's a career coach. Doing great stuff, right? Doing great stuff, and he's graciously offered to be a part of the Living Corporate team for Season 2 to give y'all his own nuggets of wisdom, and he's gonna put 'em on the show.Ade: Amazing. Shout-out to Tristan.Zach: To me that's crazy, right? Shout-out to Tristan Layfield and Layfield Resume, man. Like, shout-out to those folks over there. He's doing great work. In fact, can we get some applause? Can we get some applause for us right now, like, collaborating, sharing spaces?Ade: Totally.Zach: I mean, come on. Let's do that. Let's do that. Maybe even some air horns too, I don't know. That reminds me though, [inaudible] sound effects, drops and stuff like that, we're also gonna new background music this season. Now, look. We got a lot of feedback. People are really feeling the background music. I'm gonna call it blackground music, right? It's jazzy. It's soulful. It's refreshing, right? It's good. It's good. We've gotten good feedback on it. So we're excited about the fact that we're gonna have some new blackground music this season and new mixes for our SoundCloud. So look, we have a decent amount of followers on SoundCloud. Of course we have our most followers on Instagram, but look, on our SoundCloud, y'all, we drop mixes and, like, custom music. I know, I know, I know. You're like, "What? Y'all doing a lot." I know. Ade: We got the aux cord.Zach: We got the aux cord, we got the aux cord. And listen, the mixes are fire. They're not--there's no profanity or nothing on 'em, so when your colleagues at work, when they ask, "Hey, Jamal, do you have any music you'd like for us to play? We're having a late-night working session here." This actually happened to me when I was in Japan working with my colleagues. They were like, "Hey, let's get some music going on. Let's get some music going on." So one of my colleagues, I'm not gonna say who it was, wanted to play some Nickelback. I was like--Ade: Now, hold on. Hold on, hold on. What? Zach: Okay. So Nickelback, yeah. And I'm like, "Hey, uh, Brock, if you could just hand me the charger--hand me the aux and I'll handle it." And I take the aux cord, I'm playing the music, and let me tell you. Fire. We had a good time. They were like, "Ooh, what mix is this?" Then--another example and I'll stop--I had an orientation. So at my job, my new job, orientation. For some reason they were like, "Hey, our music isn't really working." Like, "Our playlist isn't working." I said, "Okay, cool." I plugged in my little--plugged in the SoundCloud, right? Work and Weekend Vibes Volume 1. Man. The guy, right? Senior guy who was coordinating the whole thing goes, "Hey, this is--hey. Hey. Hey, guy! Hey. Music's pretty good." I said, "Thank you. Thank you." It was great. It was great. We had a great time. So the point is we're gonna have more of that, okay? And it's gonna be fire, so we need y'all to check it out. Now, I talked about drops, right? Like, we talked about kind of, like, sound effects and stuff like that. Ade, what kind of drops should we have? Like, we're not a hip hop podcast, right? Like, we're not gonna have gunshots, right?Ade: I mean, you know what? I just feel like there are occasions in which something so fire was said that a gunshot or two might be appropriate. Zach: [laughing] That's so problematic.Ade: Listen, listen. I just feel as though there are some celebrations that require a *brap-brap* or two.Zach: A *brap-brap*! [laughs] Well, the funny thing is that culturally, right, culturally, like, there are different--you know, it's just--it's different. I've seen videos, man, of cats, like, just--I saw a video at a wedding. Everybody had guns, shooting them thangs off at the end, right? Like, as opposed to throwing rice they was throwing bullets in the air. It was crazy.Ade: So listen, as someone who has been to many a Jamaican function, yes. That's all I'm gonna say to that.Zach: Word? That's the wave? That's the wave? I don't know. That's--wow.Ade: I mean, a graduation, a baby shower...Zach: A baby shower? They're shooting--wait, whoa, whoa. They're letting 'em go at the baby shower?Ade: Nothing is complete--no celebration is truly complete until there's gunshots in the air.Zach: Until you let them thangs go? Wow. So this is the scary part about gunshots, right, is that when you shoot 'em up like that, I mean, just because of the way that gravity works, they're gonna fall, right? They're gonna come back.Ade: [laughing] What goes up surely must come down.Zach: [laughing] They're coming down. Can you imagine? Like, that is scary. You're in your house and you hear [sound of bullets dropping], and it's not rain? Like, "That is the smallest, fastest hail I've ever heard in my life."Ade: All I want to say is that [the sound Zach made] is not how guns sound.Zach: [laughs] When they fall. When they fall though. When they fall.Ade: You know what? I still don't feel like metal sounds like [the sound] when it falls on the ground. Feel free to correct me on this one.Zach: You don't think so? [laughs] I just think--I just think because they're so small. Like, they're bullets. They've already been fired, so they're not--Ade: I mean, that's cute and all, but metal just doesn't sound like that.Zach: It don't sound like that? That's [inaudible].Ade: No. I also know that if I ever need some on the spot sound effects you're not gonna be the guy that I go to for--Zach: Wow. My sound effects are fire.Ade: Are they though? Because thus far you've given me [the sound] and *brap-brap*.Zach: So I've asked you--so look, we've completely derailed, right? I asked you what sound effects we need. You've only--you've suggested gunshots.Ade: Okay, first of all, I didn't suggest gunshots. I said that gunshots should not be entirely out of our arsenal--see what I did there?Zach: Wow. Bars.Ade: [laughs] Should not be entirely out of our arsenal of sound effects. That's all I am saying personally.Zach: So what are we thinking? Are we thinking, like, maybe stuff from, like, a different world? Right? Like, I don't know--Ade: You know what? I don't--I feel like we should stay away from, like, sitcom-y sounds, but also just not be dead... so there is an in-between here, and we just have to walk the road and find it.Zach: We do. So yeah, more on that. We'll figure out what exactly those sounds are.Ade: See the wisdom I just applied there without saying anything at all?Zach: No, no, you did. No, no, it was good. It was good, it was good. Ade: I appreciate my roses when I get them. I'm sorry. I'm acting a fool today. All right.Zach: Okay.Ade: Back to it. Favorite Things are back.Zach: Yeah, they back.Ade: However, this year--stay with me here--we want y'all to submit some of your Favorite Things.Zach: There you go.Ade: That's right. I'm tired of being clowned for my Favorite Things. I feel as though it is only fair that we open up our space to include others, open up our horizons by sharing with us what brings you some joy or the next week or the week after that.Zach: And you know what? Speaking of, like, sharing things, like, let me just--let me just talk about what we're sharing today, okay? We're sharing space. So you may say, "Well, yes, Zach, we are sharing space in this corporate structure as non-white people in majority-white working places, and yes, we have to figure out ways to share and navigate space--" No, no, no. I'm not talking about. I'm talking about we're practically sharing space today. Ade is sharing space in a golf room of her--of her apartment. So if you hear this, like, whooshing sound in the background, those are not beheadings. That's a man swinging at a golf ball with fiber in his being. He is hitting it as hard as he possibly can. He knows--Ade: As hawrd? Zach: Hawrd. Hawrd, yes, as he--as he possibly can. He knows that we are in this room, and this is how he's choosing to share the space with us. So--Ade: I just--first of all, he's--like, this is--this is the intended purpose of the room.*SMACK*Ade: That's one. Two, let it never be said that I don't go to some extremes for Living Corporate, okay? Because I have recorded--Zach: No, you've made--this is up there with when you recorded that show with Christa in the closet with all the blankets on top of your body.Ade: I have contorted myself into some very interesting places for Living Corporate, so I just--again, I appreciate my flowers when they are given to me.Zach: No, you are--you are appreciated, it's just I don't want to be implicated in any type of murder.Ade: See? See? Why you gotta be like that? *SMACK*Zach: Because it sounds--because it sounds so scary to me, right? Like, it sounds--Ade: Imagine being the person.Zach: Man, no, no. That sounds terrifying. Okay, let's continue. So I know we talked about Favorite Things. Listener letters.Ade: All right. Listener letters. So we're taking both Favorite Things and listener letters, wherever you're choosing to submit them. So whether you want to email them, DM us on social media--preferably Instagram, but wherever we be at, you be at--submit your Favorite Things, and we will absolutely shout you out, share your Favorite Things, and maybe talk through some of the irritating things, or awesome things, that are going on in your corporate world. So if you want to talk about your coworker accusing you of stealing their lunch, drop us a line. If you want to talk about the amazing win that you've had or the proposal that you just won or the grants that you just wrote or just about the fact that you don't feel like you're getting anywhere in your career at all. Whatever it is you want to share, let us know. We're here. What else?Zach: I mean, that's a good--that's a good point. We really want--we definitely want the letters, right? And we definitely want the Favorite Things, so just submit 'em. Like, we're flexible. We're available, right? We're here for y'all. We got all these domains, right? We got all these different social media platforms. DMs open on all of 'em, you know what I'm saying? You just hit us up. Of course we prefer it in email, so who cares? Send it to us.Ade: [laughs] Who cares what our preference is?Zach: Yeah, who cares about our preference? We are here to serve y'all. That's serving leadership, you see what I mean? Because we love y'all, you hear?Ade: I see you, change manager. I see you. Zach: That's right. Look, you gotta put yourself last, okay?Ade: I don't know about all that. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "Wait a minute. Hold on."Ade: [laughs] Hold on, now. Nah, nah.Zach: "Hold on, hold on. Not last. Maybe not first." What about second to first? All right, so what else? Okay, yeah, yeah. So look. Now, we've said this--we've said this multiple times, and I need, like, some--I need, like, some softer sentimental music, kind of like the music before you donate to those dogs and stuff with their eyes all big and the cats, and they look all sad. I need that in the background. Ade: [supplies sad music acapella style]Zach: Listen, y'all know that we need 5 stars. Y'all know that we need 5 star ratings.Ade: You know I'm not about to do this with you, right? [laughs]Zach: For a simple two seconds. A one-time donation of 2 seconds. You can actually contribute to the over-arching health and promotion of the Living Corporate podcast if you just slide over to iTunes, the podcast section. Scroll down on Living Corporate's little page on the podcast. It's gonna say, "Leave a review. Leave a rating." You're gonna take your finger, and you're gonna just press 5. 5 stars. Ade: 5 of 'em.Zach: Do you have 5 on it? 'Cause I've had 5 on it, okay? Ade: [singing] I got 5 on it.Zach: Now, we're not gonna get copy--we're not gonna sued for that because we didn't play the audio. Ade: We didn't, and also Jordan Peele has made it kind of creepy, so...Zach: Yes, he has, and so we actually probably won't even reference that again. Ade: Yeah, that's gonna be the first and the last time we do that on the sh ow.Zach: Facts. But look, really, we need 5 stars, okay? So please do us the favor of giving us these 5 stars. And look, let me just go ahead--so that was the--that's kind of like the carrot, you know?Ade: Okay. First of all--there's no stick, number one. Number two, I just want to say we also appreciate your comments that come along with those. So if you want to share any feedback, if you'd like us to bring any guests back or a rerun episode or maybe get a little bit deeper on a topic that we've discussed in the past, let us know. But yeah, give us the 5 stars.Zach: So there's no stick, so I didn't mean it that way. That was me being softer, right? But, like, let me just be practical. We have, like, thousands upon thousands of downloads on our podcast every month, and yet we only have, like, 120 reviews. Ade: It's very hurtful.Zach: Right? It hurts me, right? I'm like, "Yo." And then people will be like--and then people be on Instagram, "This podcast influences me the most every day. I love listening to this podcast," and I feel the love, I do, but I would feel it more if I could get some of these 5 star reviews. So what can we do to, like, help support 5 star reviews? Like, how can we--how can we encourage the audience to participate in 5 star reviews, Ade?Ade: I have an idea.Zach: All right, go ahead.Ade: We could do giveaways. Zach: Giveaways? Giveaways is a--okay, okay, but what are we--what are we giving away? 'Cause it's not like we have--Ade: If you send us screenshots of your review, you enter a drawing. How's that sound?Zach: Right, but what do we have though? It's not like we have any, I mean--Ade: I mean, we do have Living Corporate mugs--hold on, I'm pretty certain we do. We have mugs.Zach: So that's an announcement, right? So that's, like, a two-in-one, right? We have mugs, and we're gonna do giveaways.Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay, so we do have mugs. I agree that we should do giveaways, so let's do that. Yeah, so we have, like, these Living Corporate mugs, y'all, and they're actually pretty cute. They're really cute. They're big, so, like, you know, you can put a lot of whatever your drink of choice is.Ade: Coffee. We're drinking coffee.Zach: Coffee. Listen, let's not--Ade: Although if you're making--if you're adding a little whiskey in there, that's between you and your cup.Zach: I've seen it. It's potatoes between you and your cup. Don't ask me about what's in my cup, you know? I won't ask.Ade: I really feel like that needs to be a thing. "Don't ask me about what is in my cup."Zach: Don't ask me about what's in my cup. No, I mean, I've seen it, and, you know--like, you see it on TV a lot, right? And I don't think it's, like, crazy, but I have seen people have a little something at the bottom of their drawer for the end of the day. I've seen that before. More so in industry. I've definitely never seen it in consulting, but I have seen it in industry. So okay. Cool, cool, cool. So yes, we definitely will do the giveaways. And they're not on the website yet, right? Like, we don't have the merch on the website, but we do have mugs. And we're not popping enough, I don't think, to justify us trying to sell y'all some mugs, okay, but we do have mugs that we can give out for free to encourage y'all to support the Living Corporate team.Ade: Word. Zach: What else? What else? Okay, okay, okay. So, you know, really this season of Living Corporate--so, you know, we learned a lot, right? Like, last season, of course it just being our first season--we're not even a year old yet. You know, coming in, just trying to figure out, like, what the tone is gonna be, how we address topics. And so y'all, really though, expect more intentional, like, commentary and content and just, like, general topics. Expect more fun, right? So we're gonna try to be a little bit more laid-back. Last year was really scripted. We got that feedback a lot, but we were trying to just make sure that we were keeping things succinct and tight, and we didn't want to miss--Ade: Because as you can see, we have a tendency to stray completely off-topic and wander down alleys of distraction, but--Zach: But, you know, it is what it is. And the thing--and the thing about it is, I think--I think the other point is, like, more people than not have said, "Hey, you know, we'd really like to, like, get to know y'all more." Like, "We'd like to get know you and Ade more, understand y'all's relationship. We'd like to get to know other people on the team. You said you've got other folks around." Like, "We'd like to get to know people more," and I think there's way that we can both approachable and personable and at the same time being, you know, still--like, still stick true to what it is we really ultimately want to talk about. But yeah, I just wanted to let y'all--just say that part, because we're really excited about this season, you know? Y'all know. Y'all know it's a crazy time out here. 45 got all us messed up. Yeah, I said it. I said it. Ade: I mean, these are just facts.Zach: They're facts. They're facts. They're facts. They're Facts Kellerman, okay? They're--[laughs] Hey, side-note. So apparently somebody in the DMV--Ade told me that some people be walking around saying "factory." [laughs]Ade: Hold on, what?Zach: So, you know, people will be like, "Facts." Ade: That sounds--that sounds like something that you say in, like, Waldorf. Zach: [laughs] You said "factory." Like, "factory?" That's not--no, factory is a whole different word. That's--no, that doesn't work.Ade: Nope, nope. And I know that there is, like, a trend of saying things are true when they aren't, word to your president, but...Zach: Factory.Ade: I'm here to categorically deny any and all claims that we say that in the DMV. We just--we do not.Zach: Yeah, no. That's not gonna work. Ade: Actually, let me not--let me not do that, because the teeny-boppers might. But what do they know? They're teeny-boppers.Zach: They don't know. They don't know. "Factory" is not the way. "Factory" is a whole other word. But the point is, you know, it's just a crazy time. Like, we know it is. We see--we're seeing stories of, like, blatant inequity and inequality and oppression and just general wrong-doing every day, and, you know, there's plenty of spaces that you can engage for, like, fairly moderate, semi-safe, (rarely?) wholly-safe discussions around--dialogues around race. Or, you know, you can tune into CNN or whatever for that. You can tune into anything else for that. Like, we're trying to have, like--Ade: Tune into who?Zach: I was saying, like, CNN. You know CNN. They'll be like, "A Dialogue On Race: Part 1." "A Dialogue On Race: Part 2." You know? Like, we're not trying to have quote-unquote a dialogue. Like, we're trying to really center and respect and give credence to the perspectives of people that are not often heard, right? Irrespective of how senior they may be in the organization or what their education level is. They're not heard, they're not seen, and so, like, we're trying to drive content that centers them, that affirms that, and that really continues to encourage folks to be thoughtful and empathetic to their neighbor. And, like, that's what we're trying to do. So, you know, this season is gonna be--our hope is it's gonna be way more courageous in that way. Not to say we weren't courageous in Season 1, but, like, I want to--I want to be more courageous season-to-season, right? Ade: Right, and to add to that and not interrupt you--my bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good.Ade: Part of centering the voices of black and brown folks in this space means we're not going to be doing the "there are good people on both sides" BS, because I'm sorry, like, you're not gonna equate my voice to that of a Nazi.Zach: Right, yeah. That's super true.Ade: That's, like--of all the things that we're gonna do, that's just not going to be one of them on this here platform. And I'm sure there are--I mean, there are plenty of spaces in which you could do that. This just is not going to be one of those, and I'm perfectly comfortable categorically saying that.Zach: Yeah, straight up. Because this is the thing, like, it's not--and I think that's the other issue, like a lot of times when we have conversations like these, we present it like, "Oh, well, you know, both sides just need to understand." Like, no, both sides don't really need to understand. Like, one side needs to be more empathetic and conscious of their behaviors, actions, and their privileges, and the other side--the other side don't need to do nothing. Like, nah. I was gonna say we should be more--you know, we could be gracious and just kind of, like, be willing to receive the help, but, I mean, nah. Like, a lot of times we don't even necessarily need help as much as we just don't need harm. You know what I mean? And so anyway, I--Ade: You're my fav, Zach.Zach: What'd you say, Ade?Ade: You're my fav.Zach: [laughs]Ade: 'Cause you got there, 'cause I really was about to be like, "What was that?" No, but the fundamental premise remains that it's actually harmful that the conversation is constantly asking those without power to be gracious and to have mercy and be kind and do all of the emotional labor for those with power, and I'm not just speaking to racial dynamics. I'm also speaking in any and all forms of--and we know that intersectionality is a thing--but speaking to any and all forms of misaligned dynamics, power dynamics, and the onus is almost always on the oppressed to coddle the oppressor, and I'm just gonna say that 2019, it's not--that's not the wave we're on. You're either catching up or you're getting left behind, and I feel like we just took a very, like, sharp revolutionary turn [inaudible], so let's dial it back and talk about our social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Man, it did. I was like, "Dang, if I take that ball back and I continue with this wave, the next pivot's gonna be too aggressive." Let's transition back onto Instagram.Ade: [laughs] Right? This is the kickoff episode. Let's treat it as such.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ade: And we've definitely been going on for a nice little while now.Zach: [laughs] Well, this is the thing, right? Historically you're absolutely right, that it's often been the oppressed's job to massage the feelings, emotions, of the people who have--who are the oppressors, who are the people with authority, who have the power, privilege and access.Ade: One more thing and I promise I'll shut up.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I won't.Zach: No, don't shut up. Go ahead.Ade: Here's the other thing. I wonder how much more we could be doing, and by we I mean just people who fall on the wrong side of the power dynamics. I wonder how much more we could be doing if we didn't expend all of this time and effort and energy and just emotional labor on managing the emotions of others, right? I wonder how much more--I think of it as "If I spend all of this time thinking through what my words will sound like as a woman, as a black woman, as a black immigrant, as a queer woman, as a Muslim..." Like, all of these things. So I think about all of the time that I think that I spend expending time and energy on making sure that I present myself appropriately. If I just took some of that time back, do you know how much more time I would have? How much more energy I would have to expend on things like sleeping?Zach: Straight up.Ade: Right? Or...Zach: Exercising. Drinking more water.Ade: Drinking more water, which--by the way, if you're listening with us right now go ahead and grab yourself a glass of water and just sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip. Anyway, but I think the fundamental point remains that--and I'm not saying that everyone goes around all of the time carrying that weight, but it is a significant amount of time, and it's almost not even a conscious thing that you do anymore, that you, as a woman, apologize for speaking in a meeting. Like, "Sorry, I just wanted to say that..." What are you apologizing for, sis? Just say what you have to say. Say it with your chest. But that's part of this, like, training that you get as being the person on the wrong side of the power dynamics. In 2019, I would just like to say "That's done." That's canceled. That is over.Zach: That is canceled. We're not doing that, and, like, we really want for people to come here and genuinely feel affirmed. Like, I'll give a really quick story. So, like, when I was in Japan--first of all, Japan is amazing. I can't wait to go back. Beautiful country. I was in Tokyo. It's a beautiful city. And I'm walking just--like, I'm walking down the street, and I see, like, another young black man, and we kind of look at each other. I give him the nod, he gives me the nod, and I'm walking, and then, like, I kind of turn over my shoulder, and he's, like, turning over his shoulder at the same time, and, like, he's looking at me. Like, we're looking at each other again, and we smiled, and I just kind of--I turned back around and I was just like, "Dang," and, like, I ain't gonna lie. Like, call it corny, call it cheesy or whatever. That made me feel really good. Like, I felt great, and I carried, like, this little awkward smile with me for, like, I don't know, maybe like a minute, right? And there were no words exchanged. There was just a certain level of just--there was a certain level of power and just love that you felt from just being acknowledged and seeing someone in a space that you did not expect to see someone that looked like you look like you, and then they see--y'all see each other. And, like, Living Corporate, I think that whatever we can do to give--I would love for everybody to feel that feeling that I had that evening, for those, like, 65, 70 seconds. It was a great feeling.Ade: That's dope.Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: All right, let's close this out.Zach: Oh, yeah. Social media, social media. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, so follow us on social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Okay. So on Instagram we're @LivingCorporate, on Twitter we're @LivingCorp_Pod, then we got--well, Living Corporate, if you just Google us, you'll see us on LinkedIn. We're everywhere, so make sure you check us out. We're everywhere that y'all are, and I think that does it for us on the show. Remember, this is the kickoff. We have more content coming for you. [in accent] More fire for your head top. Was that a good accent? Or not really?Ade: No, sir. Please never do that again. Be blessed.Zach: [laughs]Ade: No, be best. Don't do that.Zach: Be best. [laughs] Ade: Whoo, all right.Zach: All right. Well, this has been Zach. Ade: This has been Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.

In our Season 1 recap episode, we discuss the lessons we've learned over the course of the season, some of our favorite episodes, our Favorite Things, AND tease a little Season 2 content that's coming your way in 2019!Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateChris Price's new EP: https://itunes.apple.com/bz/album/good-evening-ep/1436626656TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to the Season 1 wrap-up. We out here.Ade: Yeah. Yeah, we sure are. So what are we gonna talk about today?Zach: Okay, so we're gonna talk about lessons learned...Ade: Aye.Zach: Some of our favorite episodes...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughing] Okay. Favorite Things...Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay.Ade: I'm just trying to be your hype man here. Like, I really don't understand why you're taking this so hard. Let's go.Zach: It's just funny. I think maybe some of it is, like, cultural differences, right? 'Cause, like, "aye--" I don't know, "aye" is pretty common across the black diaspora.Ade: I feel like in the diaspora you say "aye," and that's, like, a cue for somebody to really--Zach: To get--to get hyper.Ade: To get hyper, yes. I wasn't--I wasn't trying to ruin the rating of our--of our show here, so.Zach: No, no, no. I mean, "aye" is cool, it's just I think--I think a southern "aye"--we can talk about this maybe another time, but I feel as if if you're in the south and you say "aye," and if you're in the--I don't know. I feel like the "ayes" mean different things. Maybe not.Ade: No, I hear you. Now that you say it, I realize that, like, "aye" can also be like, "Okay, bro. You're wilin'."Zach: Aye, yeah. Exactly. So anyway. "Aye" can also be, like, a sound of acknowledgement and appreciation, kind of like how I just did it.Ade: Right.Zach: I don't know. Black language and just--black and brown language frankly is just so deep and rich. It's really cool.Ade: I love it.Zach: Now, where were we? Oh, yes. Okay, so Favorite Things. We definitely want to give out some thank yous, right?Ade: Most definitely, most definitely.Zach: Right, right, right, and then we have a few house-cleaning administrative things that we want to talk to you about as we--as we kind of take this season break and get into season two. So with that being said, lessons learned. Ade, what are some of the--Ade: Oh, I go first?Zach: You go first. What are some of the lessons you've learned in this?Ade: Aye. Oh, they are varied, they are plenty, and some I think I'm still in the midst of learning, but I think my top three takeaways from this whole process of--you know, from ideation, which was largely you--which was mostly Zach--and coming together, building a team and growing as a collective, I think the top three things that I've learned--one is to speak up. Closed mouths do in fact never get fed. Your mouth is closed? You get no bread. See? I tried to rhyme. See? See what I did there?Zach: Bars.Ade: Something-something-something-something. But yeah, if you do not in fact speak up for yourself, and that is in every facet of your life but it's even more important in your professional spaces. If you do not speak up for yourself, if you are not your own best advocate, if you do not find yourselves in the rooms where, you know, they're making those decisions and they're making the plays that you want to be making, and if you're not actively putting yourselves in those spaces and then speaking up about what you need more to grow, what you need more to succeed, it's not--it's not gonna be a great time. A great time will not be had by all, mostly you, and the reason I think for that is because people can't read your mind. People can't help you if you are not willing to, you know, point people at the issues and the places which you could use that assistance. See what I'm saying?Zach: I so agree. I think that, you know, it's not about--and when you said, like, "Closed mouths don't get fed," it's not because there's not food there, it's just that, like, everybody else is focused on eating too. So most times, you're gonna have to open your own mouth to eat. And that whole point around just speaking up and being vocal and putting yourself into comfortable positions, putting yourself out there, is just kind of part and parcel. Like, I don't know if I've ever even seen, like, any project be successful with someone just kind of, like, waiting for everything to come to them.Ade: Right, right. What about you?Zach: I think for me the biggest--one of the biggest lessons learned is that you miss all the shots that you don't take, right? And I know that's very cliche, but it's true. We had some--we had some amazing opportunities to interview some really great guests this past season, and then also just network with a bunch of people that we didn't--that we did not interview on the show but that we shared the idea of Living Corporate with and who they were really receptive too, and we have some things coming in the future, in 2019, that we're really excited about, all because of us just putting ourselves out there. And so, you know, I'm thinking about the Lakers and, you know, LeBron, the GOAT. Yes, that's right. I said it. The GOAT.Ade: I do not disagree. At least the basketball GOAT.Zach: Okay. Yeah, no. Definitely the basketball GOAT, and he's also a super GOAT when it comes to social activism, but regardless, one of my favorite Lakers is actually Kobe, but it's not because I think he's the best Laker. I don't, but I do--what I loved about his game was the fact that he would just shoot it, man, and he would make really ill-advised shots, but his mindset was like, "Look, I'ma shoot it, and I'ma make some and I'ma miss some," and it was the--it was his lack of fear when it comes to failure, right? And I think that often times we don't really look at failure as a genuine growth and development opportunity. I think some of that is because of us as just black and brown people. Failure is not an opportunity to grow. Failure is just failure, 'cause we don't have the same privileges and access to really learn and grow from our failure. When we fail, we just fail, but I think it's important for us in this era, especially as black and brown creatives, to really embrace failing forward, and I know that Matthew Manning with Gumbo, we had him on a couple--just a couple weeks ago, he talked about that too. So yeah, that was a big one for me, and in fact--hold on. Let me not--let me not forget this. We actually got some questions in that I think would be good for us to put in our lessons in this Lessons Learned section from--Ade: Really?Zach: Yeah, from social media. We've got some people to ask us some questions.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So someone said, "What is your biggest takeaway from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate?" So I feel like we can kind of roll that into a Lessons Learned. What was one of your biggest takeaways from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate this season, Ade?Ade: Ooh. There were some amazing ones actually, and I think it's kind of like an aggregate of thoughts, but ultimately it's that you need to be intentional about your career, and I think there's a common thread that kind of ties all of these thoughts together, and I think it is that you need to be intentional. And that is not to say--well, first I want to address--before I get too distracted about answering that question I do want to address something. You were talking about the Kobe Bryant shots. We are not saying you should make ill-advised shots in your career. Don't take risks--don't let your mouth write a check that your skills cannot cash.Zach: Amen. Thank you, yes. Good cleanup on that, yes.Ade: Yeah. Like, don't get up there somewhere and be like, "Yeah, I can totally stand up this project in a week, because Living Corporate told me that I can, and I should say wild things at work." Don't do that. Do not do that, but we are saying that, especially for women, especially for black and brown women, you are so much more qualified than you give yourself credit for, and part of life is in taking the risk. If you are always prepping to be perfect, you are never, ever, ever going to take the shot. So yeah, that's take #1 in response to that. Take #2 I think is to be intentional. Part of being able to take those risks is in knowing that you've done the prep work, right? So I can't just walk in to anybody's office today and be like, "I want to be your CTO." They'll be like, "Who let this person in?" And also, "How quickly can you let her back out?" Not because they want to be cruel, but because they're being realistic.Zach: Yeah, but you're not ready.Ade: Correct, but I do know that in 20 years I am going to be somebody's CTO because I am going to be making all of the steps that I need. Or maybe CEO. We'll see.Zach: Straight up. Speak it. No, real talk.Ade: But the point is that you make all of the decisions now, you prep now, you put all of your ducks in a row essentially so that your life doesn't just happen to you, so that your career doesn't just happen to you. Many of the most successful people that I know made very intentional decisions. Like, for example--I'm gonna use my partner as an example, and I hope she doesn't get mad at me, but by our bedside table she has this framed "What do you want to be when you grow up?" sort of fill in the blanks paper, and on there she has--I think this is from when she was in fourth or fifth grade, and on there she said she wants to be a lawyer like Thurgood Marshall or Johnnie Cochran, and she ordered her steps in such a way that she ended up going to Howard University and University of Laverne, both of which were universities that both of those people attended, right? So it wasn't just that you make decisions about your life and then hope that it happens to you, it's that you work. You put in the effort. You put in all of the time and energy required to get you to those places, and yes, you will of course succeed. Well, God willing, and hopefully capitalism doesn't get in your way, but you succeed because you've thought your life through, you've thought your career through, you've thought your path through, and if what you're looking for is an escape plan, you've thought that through as well so that you're not suffering on the other side of it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and, you know, to your point, it definitely was oversimplification with the Kobe analogy and--like, that was a really, really good cleanup, Shaq. That was great because you--yes.Ade: You're totally welcome.Zach: No, it was--no, it was dope. Because it's funny, in saying that what we also dismiss or rather what we ignore or underplay in that shooting our shot with getting some of the guests that we were able to get, and we're just more than honored and excited about the guests that we have for y'all for season two, is the fact that we spent hours upon hours and weeks upon weeks as a team in really, like, clarifying our mission, our purpose, getting our branding together, our language, the logo work. Like, there was a lot, and there is a lot that goes behind this very, you know, perhaps to a lot of y'all just, like, very simple, like, straight-forward show and concept, and it took time to, like, really build those things, and so there was a lot of preparation that went into it. So before I put an email together to send to DeRay or Beto O'Rourke or J Prince or, you know, a CEO or whoever it may be, there was a lot of things that we had that we could stand on to justify why I'm in this person's inbox or why I'm in this person's DMs. Now I'm gonna sound like I'm actually a Kobe stan, and I'm really not, but really to kind of go back to my initial analogy, Kobe didn't just show up at the game and just shoot those to us seemingly crazy shots. Like, he put up thousands of shots before and after every game, and in practice he's shooting thousands of these shots. He's practicing these shots. So when it's game time, literally when it's game time, and he pulls up a fadeaway over, like, three people, like, to us it looks like he just randomly threw it up, but no, like, he's been practicing that, and so--and actually, kind of to answer the question--kind of to go back to what you were talking about and kind of answering this question that was submitted to us, one of the biggest things I learned from our guests was that a lot of times we'll see--like, we see the glory, but we don't know the story, right? So, like, we see people who are like, "Man--oh, I work with HBO." Like, we spoke with Emily Miethner, who is the CEO of FindSpark, and she was like, "Yeah, we had a partnership," and she named all of these huge brands, but, like, if you just dig, like, a second deeper, you'll find out she's been doing this for, like, a decade. Like, FindSpark is blowing up now, but it's been years in the making of her building this. The same thing like when you talk to Janet Pope, who's the leader of diversity and inclusion and social responsibility for Capgemini, which is a global consulting firm--you know, you'll talk to her. You may see her in France or see her all around the world doing some really fancy stuff, but, like, her career is 12 years in the making, right? There's a lot of work that goes behind that. So yeah, no, for sure on that. We have another question. The next question, which I think is a really good one, is...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm sorry. That's like my go-to. I don't even think about it. It just, like--the "aye" is from--it's from my soul. It, like, spawns directly from...Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. It's good. I like it. So "What is in store for the next season and when can we expect you back?"Ade: Oh, wow. I mean, listen to this episode. Listen all the way to the end. You'll have some answers by the time the episode ends.Zach: For sure. No, for sure. Definitely listen to this episode, listen to it all the way to the end. Don't fast forward to the end 'cause, like, we kind of need the clicks. Like, we definitely want the download data, but, I mean, if you want to fast forward to the end, I mean, I'm not mad at you, but...Ade: And also it hurts my feelings when people skip past me, so.Zach: Who skips past--who skips past you?Ade: Well--so I'm a small person. Okay, [inaudible]--Zach: Oh, I see. Go ahead.Ade: Ooh.Zach: [laughs] No, it's just that it came together quickly when you said that. You were saying literally.Ade: No, no, no. You agreed to that way too quickly. Now I kind of want to fight. What? Wow.Zach: [laughs] Go ahead with your story. Go ahead. I'm listening.Ade: Okay. So I was at a bar, and I ordered a whiskey ginger. I think I actually ordered a Manhattan. No, an old-fashioned. Whatever. A whiskey-based drink, as is my custom, and the bartender just kept giving my drink to other people. I'm, like, watching him, and he walks past me, walks past me again with my drink, 'cause I saw him make it. It was a whiskey ginger. And then he just walks to one end of the bar, gives a person my drink. The first time it happened I was like, "Hm. Maybe--I don't know. Maybe they also ordered a whiskey ginger," but it happened, like, three times. Three. So I essentially was like, "All right, look. I will climb over this bar and fight you if necessary, but I'm gonna need my drink."Zach: Goodness.Ade: So I, like, start jumping up and waving at him, and he's like, "Oh, I didn't see you there." What? What?Zach: Come on. [laughs]Ade: What?Zach: No, no, no. But, like, real talk though. Like, size privilege is a thing, right? Like, there are certain privileges that come from being tall and from being thin. There's certain privileges, you know what I mean?Ade: You know there is. Absolutely.Zach: So that's real. Like, that's super real, and I can say that, like, this is an opportunity for me to practice empathy and not sympathy, 'cause I can't really relate to that.Ade: [laughs]Zach: Right? I can't, 'cause I'm always seen, you know what I mean? Like, you're not gonna not see me. Even if you try to--let's say, you know, you're trying to practice micro-aggressions and act like I'm not there. Like, you're not--like, you can't. You'll look silly. Like, I'ma get in your way. You're gonna have to acknowledge me. So that's real, but no, I was just curious. I mean, I would say that more than a few people have pulled me aside and been like, "Hey, your co-host is great." Like, [inaudible], so I didn't know what you meant about getting passed over.Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs] Yo, so this is what we're gonna do for season two. I'ma tell you what's coming up in season two, it's making me taking that "aye" as a sound bite and putting it on that soundboard, and we'll just play that.Ade: I am tired of [inaudible].Zach: It's ridiculous. Okay. So yeah, definitely listen. We're gonna talk a little bit about season two at the end and what's coming up just after this episode, 'cause we have some things happening after this season one wrap-up episode.Ade: Sure are.Zach: Yep, but what I--what I will say is, you know, please in season two expect--I don't know. I mean, I don't want to say a bit more personality 'cause I do feel as if we showed our personality a lot in season one, but, you know, it was our first season. Like, we're learning our platform. Ade and I did not know each other before we started Living Corporate, so we're certainly learning and growing as just friends in our relationship, so expect more of that, and also expect even more courageous and, like, really intentional content around underrepresented individuals and people groups in Corporate America. Like, I'll even give you an example.Ade: You are giving away the whole ending of the show.Zach: I know. Let me just--I'ma hold off on it, but we have some really great, like, topics that I'm really excited about because the point of this space is to have real talk in a corporate world, right? Like, corporate spaces. Even when you talk about inclusion and diversity, like, it's always masked with, like, other things, right? So, like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, diversity of--I'm like, "Can we be honest?" Like, "Can we just have an honest conversation about, like, intersectionality and how race and gender specifically play a role in shaping the entire planet," right? Like, can we just talk about it from a really honest and genuine perspective? Like, that's our goal. So just expect more of that in season two. When you can expect us back? You can expect us back--you can expect us back, man. We'll talk about that at the end of this episode, but you can expect us back. And maybe I'll drop a--maybe I'll drop a hint.Ade: Oh, we're doing hints now?Zach: I have a dream that you can expect us back soon.Ade: You can't be trusted with no secrets, man. Like, I just want you to know that right now.Zach: [laughs] Okay. All right, all right, all right. Let's see here now. We have one more question. Here we go. "How does one successfully transition out of the corporate world?" This is a good question, and I--you know, I'ma say this. I don't think it's fair for you and I to take this episode to try to walk through and, like, rehash some really great content that Matthew Manning of Gumbo Media and Nick Bailey of Black Texas Magazine have really done a great job at, like, expounding upon when it comes to starting a startup, transitioning from your full-time job and pursuing your dreams, like, wholeheartedly. And also Fenorris Pearson. Like, our first episode, right? He talked about transitioning out of the corporate world and getting into more non-profit work, right? So I think that there are some great episodes, and, like, this is not, like, an excuse, my back answer. Like, we definitely appreciate the question, but my biggest advice would be to go back and run those episodes back AND to look at the show notes because you have the contact information for those people, and I know who sent this question in, so I will actually circle back with them directly. And we'll make sure to--we'll put these questions and the answers, like, within the show notes within this episode, but there have been some really great episodes that we've had around that. What do you think about that question, Ade?Ade: I think, for one, we had so many amazing episodes that I connected to, that are literally just playing in the back of my head whenever I am in situations at work, that help essentially edify me, I think is the term that I'm trying to use. I'm not trying to go to church, but my top three though would have to be the mental health episode because, for all intents and purposes, I laughed my way through that episode and also connected really deeply with so many of the themes. Like, yes you want to hustle, yes you want to grind, but there's nothing to grind for if you lose your mental health in exchange for being in these spaces. And yes, these spaces often--these corporate spaces often do not have you in mind. They didn't have you in mind when they were formulating those spaces, and so now your existence in those spaces is very much revolutionary, and that said, you will often have to carry the burden of being the only, or even worse the only of onlys, in those corporate spaces, and so it 1. made me feel a lot less alone and 2. gave me a lot of very actionable advice, and so that was appreciated. Honorable mention goes to my conversation--it was a B-Side, not an episode, so I couldn't include it, but my conversation with Christa Clarke where we kind of built on that idea of what self-care looks like in corporate spaces. I think she's the first person that--maybe not the first person that I know, but the first person who was just so open about, "Yeah, I took a pay cut because it was what was best for me personally," and she's doing something that makes her happy. She has a creative space. She has everything essentially that you need to have a happy life without the stress, and so she's inspirational, and I'm still waiting to have cocktails with her. Last two. I think the Let Me In conversation with TJ, because--Zach: That was a good one, yeah.Ade: Yeah. You know, in real-time seeing someone who did precisely what I want to do with resources and having the conversations that I needed, and in a lot of ways he was inspirational because he decided he was gonna do this for the kids, you know? He was very much like, "I want to give back to my community, and this is the way that I've identified would benefit my community, but I'm not there yet," and so he took it upon himself to better himself because he knew--he (treated?) himself as a meaningful part of a whole, not necessarily making that career pivot just for himself, which was just a delight to hear. And I think the last one in my top three is Janet Pope. And again, we've had a lot of really amazing episodes, but these three spoke to me. Like, they met me where I was at sort of thing, and, you know, each and every single one of those conversations really came at a really pivotal time for me and a really important time because, for example, the conversation with TJ, it was at a time where I was particularly stressed and thinking, "You know what? Maybe tech isn't for me. Maybe I'm just not smart enough. Maybe I'm just not good enough." I was really struggling at my former place of employment, and it didn't feel like I was doing any meaningful work, and it felt like I was around places that were just becoming toxic for me, and so it was just really, really good to get these reminders, like, "Hey, it's not in your head, but you can do something about it." Like, these systems exist outside of your control, but here's your locus of control. Here's your internal--you can do this work, and having people who have done the work, who are able to distill the vastness of their experiences into "This is what I did. You can do it too," was priceless for me.Zach: Those were really good choices.Ade: Thank you.Zach: So yeah, you can definitely count B-Sides. Like, B-Sides, they're episodes, so let's make sure we count those. So after I finish mine, if you have some extras that you want to throw in there, please feel free. So favorite episodes. So the first one that sticks out to me has to be Preston Mitchum's B-Side, right? Because it was so unapologetic. Preston Mitchum, he was talking about LGBTQ identity, he was talking about pro-blackness and, like, what that looks like practically in the workplace and as someone who's in a highly political area. He lives in D.C. He's a lawyer. He's an educator. He's an activist. So that one--that one was great.Ade: Yep. All facts, no cap.Zach: All facts, no cap. Listen--so side note, shout out to all these new slang words. I realize that I'm old now 'cause I--my generation as millennials, like older millennials, right? So I'm saying older millennials. I'm 29. We don't come up with all of the dances anymore, and we don't come up with all of the slang, so no cap--Ade: Can I just say something real quick?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: The first time I heard "no cap" I thought they were talking about Captain America, and I was mad confused because I genuinely just didn't get why they were bringing up Captain America in a conversation that had nothing to do with Captain America. I was just kind of like, "Uh..."Zach: "What is "no cap?"" Right? No, I was confused, so I was like, "What is "no cap?"" So "no cap." "Say less" is also hot in these streets, "say less," and then also I've heard of tick. Like, "You got tick." Like, "You got juice," or sauce or influence. You have tick. So that was a new--Ade: You have what?Zach: Tick. Tick. Chance the Rapper--Ade: Like the animals?Zach: Yeah. Like the bug, yeah. It's like the pest. Tick.Ade: Oh, no. I just--there's some things I just can't get with, and that's gonna have to be one of them.Zach: Tick is--yeah, tick is hot in these Chicago and Midwestern streets supposedly, so...Ade: Well, keep them Chicago and Midwest streets [inaudible] because...Zach: Is it not popping in the DMV?Ade: Not only is it cold, y'all not--what? Tick? Nah, that don't even make no sense. Like, what?Zach: [laughs] Goodness gracious. So yeah, so "no cap." [laughing] Going back to the podcast favs. So yes, Preston, and another one was Effective Allyship with Amy C. Waninger. That one was great.Ade: Aye.Zach: Around the same thoughts, because Amy being a white woman, and very white, right? And, like, we talked about that on the episode, 'cause the topic was effective allyship, and she talks about effective--like, she is a very white woman in a very white space, and just her just unapologetic tone around the reality of race and gender and intersectionality, really important. I would have to piggyback on one of your answers though. The Janet Pope episode was very good. I really, really enjoyed that one, and I was excited because I was not on the episode, and I was able just to listen and hear about y'all's journey, hear about just perspectives that I don't--I don't consider, and the fact that it was three black women talking too, which I was really excited and thankful for. Oh, okay, and then so a B-Side was--Latricia and I did an episode on Botham Jean, the man who was murdered by the police in his own home, and I liked that episode because it was not in any way, like, in alignment with our formula at all. Like, it was a--it was very much so, like, a--I don't want to say pop culture, but it was a current events-type episode, and that was probably, like, the maddest y'all will ever hear me on this podcast. Let me not say it. Well, hopefully it will be the maddest you ever hear me, but it was just very frank, and actually, people at my current place of employment heard the episode and reached out to me about it, like, in a very positive and encouraging way, and it helped me extend my network somehow, which was, like, an affirmation that, like, speaking truth to power is, to me, always the right thing to do. Like, you'll never go wrong in that. Like, how you speak truth to power and your method may adjust, but you doing it is not wrong. So that's three. I really enjoyed--I really enjoyed the episode with Deborah Owens about the self-advocacy, strategic networking and self-advocacy, when she was like, "You don't have a career."Ade: Oh, wow. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Zach: [laughing] "I don't want to do anything to mess up my career." "Sis, you don't have a career here." Boy. Goodness.Ade: Oof. A drag.Zach: No, it was--it was very funny, and then my fifth spot is kind of actually a tie between two. One is an episode where you kept on saying the person was tugging on your wig, which was the Professional Reinvention episode with my dad, Edward Nunn. That was pretty good. I liked that episode. It was tied with the B-Side for Professional Reinvention with Angela Shaw, and she's an HR business partner, public speaker, and she's the Austin Human Resource Management Association president, right? And so I really enjoyed--really enjoyed those episodes, but, you know--I don't even want to say honorable mention. I have a ton of others. The J Prince episode, even though it scared the mess out of me, was great. That was terrifying.Ade: [laughing] I remember you talking about that episode. You were freaking out.Zach: I was freaking out. And listen, let me tell you something, y'all. Y'all go back and run that episode back. That was the shortest episode in Living Corporate history. It was very short. I think it was, like, nine minutes. And then of course the DeRay Mckesson episode was phenomenal. I enjoyed that, even though the signal was bad. I appreciate the fact that he took the time to join, and he was really cool, so. You know what time it is? We didn't have it on our last episode, so now we're gonna get into Favorite Things. And this is the last Favorite Things for season one. So, you know, Ade, you typically have, like, seven favorite things. Feel free to drop as many more--Ade: Wow. You are so disrespectful. I just--I want you to know that it is on sight for you.Zach: [laughing] This is the thing. We've got to stop using--we've got to stop using phrases from the early 2000s and late '90s that don't mean what they mean anymore. "On sight" don't mean--Ade: That is what it means.Zach: "On sight," but you don't see anybody anymore, right? Technology is in the way. Now "on sight" don't mean that. "On sight" means that when I see you're green, when you're available on Facebook, it's a problem, you know what I mean? [laughing] Like, we don't see each other like that no more. It's just technology.Ade: [inaudible]. I just want you to know that the way my spirit is moving...Zach: You're moving--you're moving in early 2000s "on sight," that's what you're saying.Ade: The energy that I retain is of DMX fame, and I just want you to know that the minute you step off your plane...Zach: And come to D.C.? It's on sight?Ade: And land in...Zach: And put my two feet on the--Ade: You don't even gotta put both feet.Zach: I'll put one toe, one toe on D.C. ground.Ade: A toenail.Zach: A toenail. It's on sight.Ade: In any of the surrounding zip codes where I reside.Zach: Goodness. In the D, the M, or the V.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: Understood, I appreciate that.Ade: All right, [inaudible]?Zach: All right.Ade: So glad we understand each other.Zach: Great. [laughs]Ade: You're ridiculous. I can't stand you. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Oh, goodness gracious. So yes, please, Ade, commence with your cavalcade of Favorite Things.Ade: I--oh, my God. I can't keep saying that I want to fight you, but I do want to fight you. All right. Okay. So my Favorite Things--I actually don't want to go with books, and here's why I don't want to go with books. We have a list of books, and I would actually love to see if we could, like, get some listener feedback on their favorite books, but we said favorite THINGS, so I don't know. I feel like we should expand our repertoire a bit. So I have three, because I always have a lot. I'm very indecisive in that way. Top favorite thing is goat meat pepper soup.Zach: Oh, that sounds good.Ade: I am making some at the moment, and my house smells like peace, joy, and happiness, and so yeah. I'm partial, but goat meat pepper soup is the GOAT.Zach: Aye.Ade: You see what I did there? You see--you see what I did? You see?Zach: That was clever. Yeah, that was good. [laughs]Ade: And you should try goat meat pepper soup with some rice noodles. It's a delight. It's a delight. I just want to say that. Next favorite thing is Rent the Runway. Now, before I get any judgment from anybody, I just want to say I'm not gonna spend $8,000 on an Oscar de la Renta dress, but I do like Oscar de la Renta's dresses, so I'll spend $300 on renting one. Bloop. That's all I've got to say about that.Zach: Understood.Ade: Thank you for appreciating me, friend. And I think my final thing that I want to just shout out is contact lenses. Now, I just want to wax poetic for a second about contact lenses, 'cause I don't know if everybody knows, but my eyes are purely decorative. Without glasses or contacts, I can't see a thing. I literally see the world like those super out of light--out of focus lights that you see in the distance in Christmas. That's my life when I don't have any glasses or contacts on, and I just want to shout out to God for working way harder than Satan, because I can't tell you the number of bruises I've gotten just because, like, my eyes didn't see fit to notice that there was a corner there.Zach: [laughs] Man, that's real though.Ade: Or how many times I have just busted my whole behind because I didn't have contacts or glasses and missed, you know, the final three rows of stairs.Zach: Yo, that's the--that's the thing. When you miss, like, those steps, like, just one or two, you feel like--like, your life flashes before your eyes. Like, you feel you're about to die.Ade: Listen. Have you ever fallen up stairs?Zach: Trust--have I? Yes, most certainly.Ade: 1. I am disturbed to find that we are united in that experience...Zach: Most certainly.Ade: But also 2., and more importantly--oh, shoot. One second. Also, more importantly, how is it that we've managed to fall UP stairs? Like, I feel like we need to speak to somebody about this.Zach: I don't know. That's the thing though. It's us and, like, millions of other people. Like, plenty of people fall up the stairs. Like, honestly, the internet has brought of course a variety of great things, and one of the best things for me is that it really has helped me feel more comfortable in the fact that I'm a klutz. I'm really clumsy. That's why when I--that's why when I go out places, I don't even be moving around that much. I find, like, one little place to be and I kind of park there, because I know the minute that I move I'ma knock something over, I'ma bump into somebody, I'ma trip.Ade: You know what? That's a really good plan, because I certainly am gonna need something. Something, something. Maybe, like, you know, that bubble. Not, like, because I'm immuno-compromised but because, like, otherwise I'm gonna bump into everything and hurt myself. So yeah, things that you've learned about me today. I'm extremely clumsy.Zach: Most of my friends, close members in my family are very clumsy. Just clumsy. Just clumsy people, and I don't know what that's about. I've heard that there's some tie-in to people being clumsy and being intelligent though. Believe it or not I have, but, you know, that could just be junk science. You know, fake news. Who knows? Okay, so those are your Favorite Things. Hm. So my Favorite Things for the season, as our last entry into Favorite Things--I also will not do books. I too will do Things.Ade: Aye.Zach: Aye. So my first Favorite Thing has to be the music that my brother-in-law Chris Price has dropped. He actually dropped an EP, and actually you should be hearing that in the background right now. It's just dope music, and I enjoy it because it's just jazz. Like, it's light jazz via piano, and what I like about it is--so beyond, like, the music itself, which I definitely listen to. It's good study music. It's good just kind of relax music. What I really like about it, the reason why it's a Favorite Thing--Ade: (Aye?) I've really got to stop saying that. It's driving me nuts now.Zach: See? Exactly, but it's cool. It's cool, 'cause I'ma run this back, I'ma cut out that little A, and I'm gonna make that--'cause we have a soundboard for season two. I'm gonna be like--it's gonna be "aye-aye-aye-aye." We're gonna just play it to death.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: That and the air horns. That's gonna be season two sound effects staples. Okay, so anyway, back to this. So what excites me and why it's a Favorite Thing is not just because it's good music, it's because any time I see someone, like, pursue their dream or pursue something and, like, really execute upon something that they have been thinking about or, like, a passion of theirs or something they find really interesting--that excites me, right? So that's why it's a Favorite Thing. So the music that you're hearing, we'll have the information in the show description so you can check it out yourself. Make sure you check it out on iTunes and everywhere that streams music. So that's one. The second thing that's my Favorite Thing has to be, and I'm just gonna come out and say it. I'm gonna come out and say it, man. Vaseline. So Vasel--Ade: What?Zach: Yeah, Vaseline. Like, Vaseline, especially in the melanated community, I think is greatly underused, right? So, you know, we don't talk about it enough, but I'ma talk about it - ashy. Ashiness, okay? So ashiness being the predominance of dry skin or a lack of moisture in your skin, and I think a lot of times--I think big lotion, the big lotion industry if I may, has deluded us into thinking that these very watery lotions are satisfactory for our skin, right? But you've got to realize, like, we don't live in a world that caters to blackness or brownness or anything like that. We live in a world where we are not the default. So that watery lotion, that hotel-level lotion, is not gonna cut it for us, and so I think that Vaseline, petroleum, Vaseline, is a great thing. It's a Favorite Thing of mine. Vaseline has never let me down. It is very cold in Dallas and in Houston--Ade: All of the shea butter in the world though.Zach: Shea butter also. So let me--let me actually amend that. Shea butter, cocoa butter, and Vaseline. And I guess--so under the umbrella of thicker moisture risers and moisture retainers, and it's really--Ade: I'm here to educate you. So shea butter and Vaseline and all of those things, they're not going to moisturize your skin. They're going to lock in moisture.Zach: That's what I said--but I said that--remember when I said [inaudible]--Ade: You said moisturizes first.Zach: Okay, fine, but then I said--Ade: I heard you though.Zach: Okay, cool, but then I said retain--Ade: Okay, but I heard you though.Zach: I said retain too though.Ade: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] They retain the moisture, right? So anyway, it's just important, man. I think, you know, a lot of y'all have--you know, a few folks have come in and emailed us about career advice and how do you do this and how do you do this. Let me tell you something. One thing you can do, anybody can do right now, is be less ashy. That is gonna help you in your career, no matter what you're trying to do.Ade: Um, sir? What?Zach: And so--[laughs] Like, no, really though. Really though, name one person that you've seen on television that's a person of color who's ashy? Malala is always--Malala? She's always moisturized. Michelle Obama? She looks moisturized to death. Her everything. There's not one dry bone on her body. Barack Obama? Same way. Idris Elba? Come on. Like, come on. Like, we know this. Oprah? Oprah never goes out ashy. We need to do--we need to do better so that Nivea--that's right, I'm coming at y'all, Nivea--all these other watery, water-based lotions, they're not for us, y'all. That's right, I'm talking to us right now. That's right. So that's--and look, that's just number two. I got one more. I got one more. Oh, Murray's Hair Grease also goes in that Favorite Things. I'm talking about thick pomades and lotions.Ade: Okay. You know what, sir? I'm gonna send you some shea butter because I can't listen to you crackle and pop over there anymore.Zach: [laughs] I don't crackle and--Ade: Don't claim you're not snapping.Zach: I don't crackle and pop. I don't crackle and pop because I use cocoa butter, shea butter, Murray's, and Vaseline.Ade: In that order?Zach: No, I just those thick--they're thick agents. That's what I use.Ade: I just...Zach: What if I start off by saying my Favorite Thing is thick agents? People will be like, "What are you talking about?"Ade: Okay, almost every time you've said "thick" so far you've said "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick," and sir, I'm very concerned about--about you.Zach: Thick agents. I didn't say--I didn't say "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick."Ade: No, no, no. You're right. You're totally correct. I understand and [inaudible].Zach: Thick agents. Cool. So that's two. Shout out to thick agents of moisture retention. That is my second Favorite Thing, then my third Favorite Thing--my third Favorite Thing is actually going to have to go a GroupMe called Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah, yeah.Ade: You keep that one in. Shout out to BIC.Zach: Shout out to BIC, which is thick with black consultants. How about that?Ade: [sighs]Zach: No?Ade: No.Zach: Okay. Well--JJ, keep it in. Keep it in. Don't take this out. [laughs] So no, really though, I love Blacks In Consulting GroupMe because it's--you know, the numbers, they wax and wane, but they are always well over 5 to 600 people, always, and it's all--it's what it is. It's black folks in consulting, and we share--we have venting sessions, we share knowledge, we share resources. It's a place of affirmation and familiarity, and so it's great. It's really exciting just to be in that space, and it was through Blacks In Consulting that I met the Living Corporate--the people that would eventually comprise the Living Corporate team, and so just shout out to them and shout out to my favorite--that's one of my Favorite Things. My Favorite Thing--so it is the GroupMe, but I guess from a conceptual level it's more about the idea of like-minded people grouping together, not to exclude others, not to rise up against other people or anything like that, but in the name of just being collaborative and practicing a certain level of community along very genuine lines, and I think, you know, it's--you know what I mean? Like, to me that's a beautiful thing. And yeah, we're in there. We'll joke and we'll have fun and stuff like that, but, like, there are genuine moments of collaboration and just affirmation. So those are my Favorite Things. Those are my Favorite Things. Okay, so--Ade: And just to add to loving on BIC real quick, it's been a space where I got career advice, I got--I mean, I got to meet you, Zach, but I also got to meet some really amazing people. I got interview advice, and I found some [inaudible] partners. Not only is it a well-rounded group, but it's super effective, and it's a really great way or it has been a really great way to meet young professionals like myself, and I'm very, very grateful for that space, and you guys should definitely look for Blacks In Consulting and other projects that's coming out of that group.Zach: Ooh, yeah. That's a good point too, yeah. We don't want to give away the sauce, but definitely. In 2019, keep your eyes peeled for Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye. Okay, I need--I need a new catchphrase. Dear God, I'm so tired of "aye."Zach: Well, the first step is awareness, right? So we can--we can workshop some new phrases in 2019. Like, we have plenty of time, and--Ade: No, no, no. Today. We're working new phrases today because every time I hear it come out of my mouth I'm just kind of like, "A what? B? Can you go with another letter? I don't know, Sis. Something." I'm dragging my own self over, like, verbal cues.Zach: [laughs] You've said it like 20 or 30 times this episode. It's okay.Ade: 20 or 30? Oh, my God.Zach: [laughs] Slight exaggeration there. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. So now we're gonna get into Thank Yous, thank yous. What thank yous do you have?Ade: Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind. Okay, tell me you know where that came from.Zach: You said, "Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind."Ade: Yes.Zach: Man, I'm drawing a blank. [inaudible].Ade: [gasps]Zach: You're gonna say it and I'm gonna be like, "Duh." Who? Not Jay-Z. Who?Ade: Yes, Jay-Z. Numb/Encore with Linkin Park.Zach: Okay, cool. My word. Yo. Man, first of all...Ade: [sighs] You disappoint me.Zach: No, no, no. It's crazy that you bring that up because I was just thinking about the Black Album yesterday. I was listening to an episode of The Evening Jones with Bomani Jones, and he was talking--somebody asked, like, "Is the Black Album a classic?" And I was like, "Yes."Ade: Uh, duh.Zach: Like, the Black Album dropped when I was 14. Man, let me tell you, [inaudible]--Ade: When you were how old?Zach: I was 14. I was in eighth grade, yeah.Ade: Oh, boy.Zach: And it's funny, right? Age is--age is not relative in that, like--I mean, come on. Like, they're distinct numbers, but what you think is old and young is relative to the person, right? So on The Right Time, most of the people there were, like, in their--they were older. They're, like, in their thirties and their, you know, maybe early forties, and they're talking about, "Yeah, I remember when I was in high school listening to the Black Album." "I remember when I was just graduating high school and getting into college listening to the Black Album," and [inaudible] I know I shared. I was like, "Man, I was, like, 13, 14 when the Black Album dropped." I think I was 13 actually. And everybody was like, "Dang, you were young," and then you're like, "Nah, I'm old." Like, 'cause how old were you? You were like, what, 9? 10?Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: Yeah, you were mad young, right? So anyway--Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: [laughs] Anyway, so yeah, we're getting to our Thank Yous. Ade, would you like to go first or would you like me to go first?Ade: You go first.Zach: Okay. So first off, a major thank you goes to my wife Candice, who was more than encouraging for me just to get all of this stuff going and getting it kicked off. Like, this was a big deal in just our home because this takes time and energy away from other things, and money of course, right? Just to kind of get things going and getting started. So definitely thank yous to her and just my family, just all the support. My mom, my parents of course, and then my mother and father-in-law for sure. Very encouraging, very supportive in everything that I do, and they're just--they're just great. Like, they're great. So that's just starting with just family and just close--and I'll throw close friends in there too. And then thank yous also go to all of the guests for season one. Like, people responded to us with such excitement to be on the show. Like, we did not have to really beg a lot of people. That was crazy to me. So thank yous to everybody that was a guest. Special shout outs to George Okpamen, who has been super supportive and just over the top--Ade: Sure has.Zach: Right? Very supportive. Amy C. Waninger, who always retweets things. Kyle Mosely. Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. That was actually another favorite episode too, Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. Super cool. Very White Guy. I mean, the list goes on and on, literally every single guest. J Prince too. Just people who are willing just to be on our platform and just be a part. Like, it's amazing. Other thank yous go of course to Sound Man, AKA JJ. JJ, man, please give yourself a round of applause real quick-like please.Ade: Seriously?Zach: 'Cause man, you've been just super instrumental in getting all of these things together. I mean, between the full episodes and the B-Sides and the--I mean, it's crazy. And another thank you goes to actually someone who's very behind the scenes but is super instrumental to everything we do is Aaron. So Aaron is our admin, and so, you know, someone--so someone pulled me aside one time and they were like, you know, "So where are the white guys? Where are the white guys?" Like, "Why are you excluding the white people?" So first of all, we do not exclude white people. We've had white people on Living Corporate, okay, as guests, and Aaron, who's on the team, is white. So there, okay?Ade: You just totally pulled the "we have a white friend" card, and I want you to know that I'm about 30 seconds away from laughing [inaudible].Zach: [laughing] But we don't just have a white friend. We have white friendS, right? We've got Drew.Ade: Plural.Zach: Plural. We have Drew. We have Amy. We have Aaron. Okay?Ade: Okay, I'm gonna need you to not list all of the white people who like us. Thank you.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm not doing this with you, sir. [laughs]Zach: Here's the thing. See, look. It's so funny, right? 'Cause I was about to get defensive and name, like, two more white people, but then it's--like, that's kind of proving your point. But no, in all seriousness, right, like, I just want to thank Aaron. He certainly is our forced diversity hire. The government, the radical left, came and made us hire somebody white, and so that's where we are. [laughs]Ade: [sighs] All right. When we get kicked off of Apple Podcasts, I will just point to this moment.Zach: You know that's what people think though. They think, like--they think, like, the government goes into companies like, "You have to hire--"Ade: Certainly.Zach: You know? It's just ridiculous. So of course we [inaudible]--Ade: But also just point to this second in time. Like, I'm not mad at it. You are spitting facts, however...Zach: The loony left! Nah, but in all seriousness, Aaron is great, and he's been doing wonderful work. And then last but not least, I want to thank the people who are still kind of, like, on the periph--who started off, like, really closely in Living Corporate but now they're kind of more so on the periphery or doing other things, and that's Latricia, Ade--I'm about to say Ade. Latricia, Ola, and Parin, and Hannah. So all of them have had, like, very critical and instrumental parts of Living Corporate and just getting started and us kind of, like, getting some frameworks recognized and developed, and we've been able to continue to move forward, so I want to thank them. And then lastly--I know I said lastly before, but lastly I want to thank Sheneisha White, and she's actually our researcher, and so you'll hear more about her in season two, but yeah. And I'm sure I've missed somebody, but I don't think so. So yeah, those are my Thank Yous.Ade: Those were great, and exhaustive, so I don't have too much more--Zach: Oh, okay. [laughs]Ade: Look. Listen, you did it. I appreciate you taking point on that because I know I would've forgotten somebody that was super integral, and then I'd feel bad for the rest of all my days, so thank you for sparing me the guilt. Personally, I would like to thank my partner, my friends, my family. I feel like I'm at an award show and I should've prepped a speech, but in lieu of that I do want to say my deep, heartfelt thanks to, you know, everybody who has supported this endeavor, everybody who has given us feedback, who has--I'm gonna shout out my friends [inaudible] and [inaudible] just championing and really supporting in ways that I didn't even expect. I didn't expect my friends--in a lot of ways, they were the very first to recognize, "Hey, this is a really dope thing, and you guys should keep doing it." Not only was that useful for us and helpful for us, but it was just empowering in ways that I don't think they know, and I hope that I'm only a quarter as good of a friend as you guys have been to me. Shout out to [inaudible] as well. Shout out to [inaudible] as well, but I really appreciate all of you, and I've gotten more than one comment about how beautiful my voice is, and I have never been so self-conscious about it before, but I really appreciate that people appreciate my voice, so there's that. Yeah. In all, I'm really grateful that the most expensive thing that you can be given is someone's time and that you guys have come back time and time again to spend your time with us and listen to what we have to say and the content that we are producing is just--it's a humbling thing, and I really appreciate all of you. And finally, I really want to thank you, Zach, because you've poured your heart and soul into this project, into this platform, and I think everyone who knows you knows the amount of time and effort that you put into this project. Up to 3:00 a.m. mornings when we're both up and we're like, "Why are you up?" "Living Corporate. Why are you up?" "Insomnia." So... [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Ade: Yeah. I just really want you to know that I've never met anybody with your work ethic, with your passion, with your drive, and your humility. All of those things are important because otherwise I don't think I'd be able to like you very much because I'd be like, "Who's this guy outperforming me? How dare you?" You've really defined leadership for me in a lot of ways, and I appreciate you.Zach: Man, first of all, thank you, Ade. Like, none of this was scripted at all so I wasn't expecting that, but I definitely appreciate it, and I appreciate you. One of these seasons we're gonna have to talk about, like, your journey, right? Like, this--like, over the past, you know, seven, eight months, and the growth that you've shown--Ade: I don't know if I can put that on a public platform. [laughs] Wait.Zach: [laughs] But no, just the growth that you've shown and the obstacles that you've overcome and the resilience that you've demonstrated, and just all of the--just the development. I mean, there's just so much there, so I'm inspired by you, and I'm excited to be here with you and to continue forward with you on and through Living Corporate. So cool, enough of that 'cause I'm not gonna cry. Let's talk about some house-cleaning and just kind of, like, what's next for Living Corporate, right? So you guys--I'm sorry, I don't want to be so hetero-normative in my language. You all should know or should be hearing this around Thanksgiving, right? So we're recording this in mid-November. You all should be hearing this on the 23rd or the weekend of the 23rd around Thanksgiving. The regularly scheduled programming of Friday Living Corporate episodes, either full episodes or B-Sides, will be on pause until early 2019, which will be sometime in mid-January or so, okay? So that's when we're gonna be coming back. We will be back in mid-January, and that's gonna be, like, our formal, full episodes. Like, that's when those will come back, but in the meantime we actually have a really exciting partnership that we want to announce for you guys, for you all.Ade: Sure do.Zach: And that's what with the Coalition of Black Excellence. So the Coalition of Black Excellence is a non-profit genuinely focused on the uplifting and professional development through networking, through education, of black professionals. They're based in California, and they have a really big, major event called CBE Week that's gonna be happening in early 2019, and so we actually have a partnership with them to really feature a lot of the speakers for that event as special co-branded, co-facilitated learning series that we will be airing through this platform, through the Living Corporate podcast, up and leading to--up and leading to CBE Week, okay? So you'll be hearing those on Mondays, okay? Those will be starting up soon. So if you heard this on a Friday, really you'll likely hear that content--the first episode for that particular learning series will be dropping that following Monday, okay? So make sure you stay tuned for that. We're really excited about that, really thankful for the opportunity to work with the Coalition of Black Excellence in this regard, and we actually have even more content that we're gonna share with you around the CBE Week as it gets closer, but we're gonna hold some of those jewels back for ourselves. So we're excited about that for sure.Ade: Definitely.Zach: What else, Ade, housekeeping-wise? What else do we need to talk about?Ade: While we're gone, please keep sending us your letters if you want to vent, if you want to write, if you want to ask questions. We're on hiatus, but we can certainly--maybe get on Live and answer a couple questions.Zach: Ooh, that's a--what a good idea, yeah. I agree with that. No, we should definitely do that. That's a great idea.Ade: Thanks.Zach: Yeah, and then also--listen. Now, look, I'm not gonna share all of the--all of our download data 'cause I don't--you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to give away the sauce, but look, we have thousands--we have thousands upon thousands of downloads every month, right? And I share this to say I need y'all to give us five stars on iTunes, okay? Please. That would be a great holiday gift for us. Give us five stars. Like, right now I think we're around, like, 115 or so. I need to check again. I know that, like, they come in kind of in delays, but let's see if we can get to 200 before January. Can we do that? Can y'all get on and just give us five stars real fast? It don't take too much time, and I know y'all not some haters 'cause y'all listen to the show. Like, there's plenty of people--thousands of people listen to the show every month, so just go ahead and do that for us. The last thing is to make sure that you run back some episodes. I know that we publish on a weekly clip, and some people have commented like, "Man, y'all are really putting out a lot of content. It's hard for me to keep up." Like, thankfully it's a podcast, so you don't have to even quote-unquote keep up. Now you can just go back and listen to 'em. You have a little bit of a break. So make sure you check out some episodes if you missed anything. We have some really great content, really proud of it, and yeah. Okay. Well, if that's it--Ade, is there anything else you're thinking about?Ade: As y'all go into the holidays, I hope that you have a peaceful, blessed time. If you get to spend your time with your loved ones, I hope that you hold them close, you hold them tight, you have wonderful, wonderful memories--you make wonderful, wonderful memories, and if you are not around your loved ones or your chosen family, if you have to spend time in uncomfortable spaces in this holiday period, I pray for peace for you as well. I pray for ease for you as well, and, you know, make sure that you prioritize your mental health. The downside to a lot of the holidays is that you're sometimes surrounded by people who trigger you, people who put you in unhealthy situations, and I want you all to choose yourselves first. Take time off work because those people will replace you in a heartbeat if necessary. So as important as it is to build your brand, build yourself, like we were saying earlier, make sure you make time, you make space for healthy habits. I think that's all I have to say. Oh, see y'all next year. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, yeah, so we definitely will. And, man, echoing everything you just said, Ade. That's dope. That's super agreed. Hit us with the wisdom. I'm over here trying to rush out the door. Yeah. So you will hear other Living Corporate content, but as far as the Living Corporate regular season goes, you will hear us as a duo next year. So with that being said, you've been listening to Living Corporate. My name is Zach.Ade: I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Zach: [scat singing]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We have the pleasure of sitting down with career coach and resume writer Tristan Layfield to discuss what goes into landing the job of your dreams and how to achieve that goal.Find out more about Tristan here: https://layfieldresume.com/about/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach.Ade: And you're listening to Living Corporate. So Zach...Zach: What's up?Ade: So we have another B-Side, but this is the last full episode before our Wrap Up episode this month. Zach: Sheesh, already?Ade: Yeah, man. It's been such a wild ride. Can you believe it's only been seven months since we got started? In that very, very short time, we've had some dope conversations, some amazing guests, and more than a few funny moments.Zach: [laughing] For sure, but you know what? We'll talk all about that in our Season Wrap Up episode in a couple weeks.Ade: We sure are.Zach: That's right, but today, we're gonna talk about landing the job of your dreams.Ade: The job of your dreams? That reminds me of that lottery that got over a billion dollars.Zach: A billion dollars. Oh, yeah. What would you do if you had all that money?Ade: Who are you kidding? I wouldn't do just one thing. I would open a restaurant, travel the world, open free clinics and schools all around the world. Pretty much whatever my heart could possibly desire. I think that's the definition of a dream job, something that you would do if money wasn't a concern. What's your dream job?Zach: So I have to start with my passion, right? So my passion is people and creating platforms that amplify the voices and experiences of underrepresented people, so a lot of really what Living Corporate is doing. So my dream job would have to heavily involve Living Corporate for sure.Ade: Ayyyy. You know, it would be great if we could talk to someone like a career coach, but not just any career coach. Maybe a public speaker, someone with professional resume writing experience, an educator. Someone who's been featured in a variety of publications. Let's throw maybe black enterprise in there, and maybe he focuses his work on underrepresented people, especially millennials worldwide but also around his hometown of Detroit, Michigan.Zach: Hm. Oh, wait. You mean like our guest Tristan Layfield?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Look--Sound Man, look. We are so many episodes in. Go ahead and give me those air horns right HERE.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Yeah, shout out to J.J.Zach: [laughing] Shout out to J.J., hey, A.K.A. Sound Man. We'll talk about that more too. [laughing] Anyway, so next what we're gonna do is get into our interview with our guest, Tristan Layfield. Hope you all enjoy. And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Tristan Layfield on the show. Tristan, welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Tristan: Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm doing well. It's a little rainy here today, but I'm feeling good.Zach: Hey, man, I hear you. For those of us who don't know you though, tell us a little bit about yourself.Tristan: Yeah. So like you said, my name is Tristan Layfield. I'm based in the Metro Detroit area, and I'm a career coach and resume writer that approaches career development with my clients by combining their personal branding with their career field through strategic coaching, the development of resumes, cover letters and LinkedIn profiles that really help my clients stand out. Zach: So today we're talking about landing the job of your dreams. That kind of assumes though that you know what your dreams are. What advice do you have for professionals who really don't know what they want, and how do they find that out?Tristan: Yeah, that's a really good question, and I think this is a problem that plagues a lot of us. And first, I think it's having an understanding of what you really want to do, and when I say that, I don't mean the thing that everyone has been telling you that you should do since you were young but the thing that you actually like, right? So I've noticed in talking with a lot of my clients and a lot of people I work with that we've been forced to pick what we wanted to do or wanted to be since we were young, and then most of us go to college where we're forced to pick a major well before we even know what we're interested in. So then we graduate with everybody else's dreams on us instead of focusing on our own. I always suggest the way to get out of that is to sort of start by doing what I call an interest alignment activity. So essentially, you make four different lists, and the first one is you list things that are high-skill for you and high-interest, meaning those are skills that you're good at and skills that you like to do. The second list is high-skill and low-interest. So those are skills that you're good at, but you really just don't like to do. And these are the things that cause burnout, right? And then the third list is low-skill, low-interest. These are the things you want to work on or develop. You're very interested in doing those things. And then the last one is low-skill and low-interest, and these are red flag areas. These are things that you don't enjoy and you're not good at, right? So once you make those lists, from there you're able to utilize those skills in that first and third section to build what your ideal job description would be, and you're also able to identify jobs that are heavy in the things that you listed in the second and fourth sections because you'll be able to better identify those roles that aren't a good fit for you because they are, you know, those skills that you're not interested in or those skills that you just really aren't good at and have no interest in overall. So, you know, doing that type of exercise gives you a baseline upon which you're able to assess all of the jobs you're looking at to understand that the position may be a fit for you and your expertise. So that's one of the things that I suggest to really try to narrow down the jobs that you're looking at, is to have something to compare it to, and that's how I sort of get to it with my clients.Zach: So does a--let me ask you this. Does a dream job mean a permanent job? Are dreams allowed to change?Tristan: [laughing] Yeah, that's a great question. So dream jobs can mean a permanent job for some people, but more often than not that's not always the case, because typically, as we grow and change as people, what we want, or our dream or our vision of things, typically changes over time. So to simply answer your question, "Are dreams allowed to change," yes, dreams are allowed to change, and I actually recently was working with a client who grew up knowing that she wanted to be a lawyer. And she went to law school, and she had been practicing law for over 20 years, but recently realized that she wanted to make a pivot into the non-profit sector as she had been working--doing a little bit of that work. So she found out that she loved it, and she came to me to figure out how to pivot her career, right? This woman's been in her career for well over 20 years, and now her dream has changed, and I see that very often, and I see that as a common thing, simply because, like I said earlier, we typically leave college or leave school with other people's dreams on us. Typically that's what we're trying to fulfill. We're not trying to fulfill our own dreams, right? So yeah, I definitely think they're allowed to change. Does it mean a permanent job? It can, and sometimes it runs its course. It was fun. You got the skills you needed, and now you need to move on.Zach: So, you know, I talk to people, especially, like, millennial professionals, and there's kind of, like, this divide, right? So there's a large contingency of us who will say, "Look, man. You've got to figure out where you just need to figure out where you stay and you can get locked in so you can get promoted, you can grow, you can climb the ladder," so and so forth. There's another group of people--and I probably fall more in this camp--of, like, "Look, man. You've got to kind of keep it moving," right? Like, "You need to figure out," you know, every three, four, every really 18, 24 months, you need to really be doing a hard assessment of, like, where you're at and if you need to make some transitions, either internally or externally or whatever the case may be. Where would you draw the line in-between looking for a genuine change and just being fickle or indecisive?Tristan: You know, I think it really depends on you as a person. Like you just said, there's sort of two different camps of people, the people who want to get into a company and want to be loyal to that company and move up through that company, and then there's the people who, unfortunately like many of us millennials, we sort of came out--we came out of school in a recession period, right? There weren't a lot of jobs, this that and the other, so we really had a foot--we were a foot behind everyone when it came to jobs or pay or whatever the case may be, and that has required us to sort of go on what I call a get rich quick scheme, you know? We're trying to catch up with everybody, and sometimes that requires us to move every two years to get that 10% raise in pay or whatever the case may be. So I think it is--it really depends on the person, but for me, where I think--excuse me, where I draw the line between genuine change and just being fickle and indecisive is when you're switching jobs or industries very frequently, like every one to two years, without actually sitting down and conducting a thorough analysis of why you're doing it, right? Most people who are looking for genuine change take the time to think through where they want to go and what they want to do or why this situation is not working for them, and they also provide enough time for them to get into the new area and learn and apply those things that they learn to practice. And that takes time, and sometimes that period can be difficult simply because you're learning and adjusting, and that is where people who are fickle or indecisive tend to jump ship, right? Change isn't easy, and those who are genuinely seeking it tend to understand that this is a process, and those who aren't genuinely seeking it or just being fickle and indecisive are just moving because of one little thing, you know, rubbed them the wrong way. Most of the time.Zach: Okay. So let me ask you this. I'm thinking through this as you're giving me this answer. If you had to give millennials and just working professionals of color advice when it comes to career navigation and finding what's going on for you--what would you say are some of the main challenges that you see with people that look like us when it comes to career navigation and finding that sweet spot for us?Tristan: Ooh, that is a loaded question. Right? [laughs] Well, first, I think--I think we all need to sit down and assess what we're really interested in and what we want to do. We have to make peace with the fact that what we had majored in in college may not be what we actually end up doing in life, and that is okay, and you have to realize that the majority of people are in that place. And then once you get into a place where you do like it, you need to understand sort of what the--what the pathway forward is inside of that company or inside of this industry, right? What are the next steps? How do you get there? What skills do you currently have, and what skills are you missing? And you identify those through a skills gap analysis, and sometimes you can identify, "Okay, this company is gonna allow me to get this skill set, but they don't have anything that's gonna allow me to get this other skill set to get to that ultimate position that I want to be in." So sometimes that means, you know, switching jobs, switching companies, switching industries to get that other skill set, and I think we have to be open about that and open and honest with ourselves that, you know, it's gonna be a process. It takes time. It takes dedication and, you know, no one really becomes successful without actually sitting down and putting in the work to figure out where they want to go, and often times what I find is we try to do all of that alone, and unfortunately that's not always everyone's zone of genius. So reach out and get help, whether that be me, like, a career coach and resume writer, or whether that be a friend that you see in the field doing the work, you know, talking to them, or whether that be getting informational interviews. You really have to be your biggest advocate in your own career search, and I think that's one of the biggest things I think people struggle with, is being their own advocate, and it's typically because they haven't done the work to figure out what they're actually interested in and how to actually attain it.Zach: That's a great last point too around being your own advocate. We just recently had Deborah Owens, who is the CEO of Corporate Alley Cat, and we had a whole episode around self-advocacy and strategic networking, and that was a main point too. So that was more from the context of navigating internally for the sake of your career, but your point also resonates because regardless if you're looking--irrespective of if you're looking for a change internally or you're looking for a change externally, you have to be your biggest advocate. Like, no one's gonna care more about you than you.Tristan: You have to be your own biggest advocate. No one knows your experience better than you, no one knows where your expertise lies better than you, and no one knows what you are able to actually go in and do and learn and put on the table, and so sometimes you just really need to show people that, and you really need to exemplify that, and the only way you're gonna do it is if you advocate for yourself.Zach: Absolutely. Well, look, this has been great, Tristan. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about you and your company? Tristan: Yeah, this has been amazing, and I appreciate it. People can check us out at my website, which is www.layfieldresume.com, and for those of you guys who don't know how to spell it, it's L-A-Y-F as in Frank-I-E-L-D-R-E-S-U-M-E dot com, or you can follow me on Instagram @LayfieldResume or connect with me on LinkedIn at TristanLayfield. Zach: Awesome, man. You know we'll make sure to have all of that information in our show notes so they can--our audience can check it out. Any parting words or shout outs before we let you go?Tristan: Yeah. You know, I just want to shout out my tribe. I always like to shout them out. My friends, my best friend, you know, my grandma. Everybody who's been supporting me along this journey, I just really appreciate them. I just want to thank you so much, Zach, for having me on the show. The conversations you're having are just so important for us to be discussing, and I'm just glad to be a part of it.Zach: Man, I'm honored by that. And you know what? Shout out to the word tribe. I gotta start using this word, man. [laughing]Tristan: [laughing] It takes a village, okay?Zach: It takes a village, man. Listen, man. I'm noticing--I'm noticing, man, all of my melanated working professionals who are building things are using this language, tribe. I've heard that from Deun Ivory. I've heard that from--I've just heard that from a few different guests. Tye Miles said it. Okay, anyway. Now I'm on a tangent. [laughs] Tristan, it's been a pleasure. God bless. This has been a great time. Hope to have you back, and appreciate your time, man. Tristan: I appreciate you having me on, man. Have a great one.Zach: Peace. Ade: Yo, we're back. Bomb interview as always, Zach. Excited that we were able to get Tristan on the show, and listening to that discussion reminds me that your resume is only one part of your journey in landing a dream job and that your dreams sometimes change, and that's okay too.Zach: For sure. Now, look, I have some bad news for y'all.Ade: No!Zach: No Fave Things this week, but that doesn't mean you can't check out our Fave Things on our website, right?Ade: [makes the "womp-womp" sound] I'm really nailing our sound effects today.Zach: You're doing a great job with the sound effects actually today. In fact, Sound Man, go ahead and drop, like, a small round of applause for Ade for her sound effects today. She came in very strongly on the "whaaaat?" Actually it wasn't raspy at all.[Sound Man complies]Ade: Ayy. Sir, are you coming for me?Zach: Then the womp-womp was very full, so it was good.Ade: Thank you.Zach: No, it was good. But no, really, our Favorite Things section, we've called out--the books, all of the books that we've talked about on the show, they're on that list. DeRay Mckesson's book, J Prince's book, Amy Waninger's book. They're all on this list of Favorite Things. You can go check out some of our favorite foods. I've got the Capital City Mambo Sauce on there. That's right, Capital City--this is not a paid ad. Capital City Mambo Sauce is fire. I ordered two gallons of the sauce about six months ago.Ade: [laughing] You are ridiculous.Zach: [laughing] But anyway, no Favorite Things this week. However, in a couple weeks when we do our Season 1 Wrap Up show, it's gonna essentially be all of this. It's gonna be me and Ade just talking, having a good time, and we'll talk about a variety of Favorite Things, from our favorite episodes to our favorite things on our list, and we'll actually make one last season update to our Favorite Things list, okay?Ade: Yep.Zach: Okay? So there's that, there's that. But we will have it back. Ade: Okay. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well.Zach: That does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We speak with Corporate Alley Cat founder and CEO Deborah T. Owens about the importance of strategic networking and self-advocacy within the workplace.Find out more about Corporate Alley Cat: https://corporatealleycat.com/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: President and CEO Shari Runner of the Chicago Urban League once said, "Speaking truth to power means believing deeply in what you say and fighting every day to have that heard. It may not be popular. It means taking a risk. It means standing for something." The context of the term "speaking truth to power" originates from the Quakers of the 1850s, who spoke out against institutional oppression to people who hold power, specifically, in their case, of American slavery to the government. Today, speaking truth to power means the same, and there are several institutions to which we could speak power. However, I believe there's also value in speaking truth to yourself, because sometimes we can be our biggest barriers to walking in the power we don't even know we have. I'd go as far to say that the day we speak up in affirmation of our own talents, our own voice and our own desires, is the day we step into levels of freedom that were previously unknown. The question is, "What does it mean to be an advocate for one's self? And what, if any role, does networking factor into it?" My name is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about being strategic in how we speak up for ourselves.Ade: Super excited to discuss this topic. I believe us people of color, especially for women of color, it's easy to default to not speaking up for much at all, be it wanting more responsibility on the job, dealing with a difficult colleague or challenging your boss, all in the name of not messing up the bag, being seen as problematic or as some sort of rabble-rouser.Zach: And let's be real, we've had these concerns for a real reason. I mean, it kind of reminds us of our episode about salary negotiation in the sense that, in my experience, I'm often told by folks who look like me to "just keep my head down and stack my checks." Like, that advice has really held up as wisdom. I really don't believe that's a sustainable way of managing your career though, for practical development reasons or for your own mental wellness.Ade: Definitely agree. I mean, I've seen more than a few folks who are in places in their career that don't necessarily align where I think their skill set is, and every now and then I'll ask them how they got where they are.Zach: And what do they say?Ade: They nearly always include some story about them asking for more opportunities for leadership or requesting a new project or manager or career counselor. Closed mouths don't get fed.Zach: And it's funny, 'cause when I talk to folks who look like us, those same reasons--not having the right opportunity, being on the wrong project, having the wrong manager, a lack of support--all is reasons why they quit or, even worse, didn't progress.Ade: You know what? The thing is it's 2018, bruh. Don't get me wrong. I don't think today is a wholly different time than any time before us. If anything, we have more resources to tell us how to be, just maybe not the culture that teaches us that we have the right to do so.Zach: No, I agree, and all of us are not all slouches in Corporate America, but, you know, that same energy that we have on social media of speaking up, calling out the shenanigans, canceling folks as need be, why can't we take some of that same energy and apply it in the workplace?Ade: To be honest, it comes right down to exposure and practice. People of color haven't had to be in Corporate America at this number before. Like, you said it yourself, you're one of the first in your family to be in Corporate America, and it's 2018. I believe as more of us inhabit these spaces, in time the culture around us will change, but that could still be decades. We need help right now.Zach: Yeah. You know, it would be great if we could talk to someone who was a corporate executive and has experience speaking truth to power in the name of their own career. Someone who's maybe launched a company that really is the spiritual godmother of Living Corporate and that they provide advice and resources for professionals of all colors to best manage and advocate for their careers.Ade: Hm. You mean like our guest Deborah T. Owens?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Sound Man, listen, you don't even have to ask anymore. We're like--Ade, we're, like, almost done with the first season, so Sound Man, go ahead and give 'em to me.[Sound Man complies]Zach: That's what I'm talking about.Ade: Thank God I was not hoarse that time.Zach: No, that went very well. No, it was a very moi--I don't want to say moist, but it was--[laughs]Ade: [laughs] I hate that word. All right, so next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, Deborah T. Owens. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we discussed, we have Deborah Owens. Deborah, welcome to the show, ma'am. How are you?Deborah: I'm great, Zach, and thanks for having me on.Zach: No problem. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Deborah: My name is Deborah Owens. I am the founder and CEO of The Corporate Alley Cat, 'cause sometimes you gotta get scrappy, and we are an organization that focuses on helping professionals of color advance their careers. And we do this by helping them navigate the corporate environment with the goal of shortening the learning curve and accelerating success in the workplace.Zach: So let's talk a little bit more about The Corporate Alley Cat. Real quick, where did the name come from? I love the tagline, by the way. "'Cause sometimes you gotta get scrappy." I like that.Deborah: You know what's so funny? People always ask me about how I came up with the name, and what's interesting is my inspiration for the name actually came from Congressman Maxine Waters. Many, many years ago, probably over 20 years ago, I saw a 60 Minutes interview she did, and I think it was Mike Wallace asked her about being an African-American woman in Congress and working with all of these men, and she said something to the effect that "That's not a problem for me 'cause I have a little alley cat in me," and I was like, "I've got some alley cat in me too." So it just came to me, Corporate Alley Cat, because you really do have to be scrappy. It is not a place for the faint of heart. You have to use your voice, you have to ask for what you want, and you can't be scared to tussle sometimes.Zach: So when you say tussle--what do you mean by tussle?Deborah: So what I mean by tussle is sometimes you have got to use your voice to say, "Hey, this is not right," "Hey, I need some clarity around this." You can't always be scared to escalate. We have to get rid of this fear of rocking the boat, because sometimes when people say "rocking the boat" it just means that they don't want to get out of their comfort zone, right? So say getting scrappy, you have to be willing to hold yourself accountable, but also to hold others accountable. You have to know your value, and more importantly, Zach, you have got to honor who you are in the workplace, otherwise you will become bitter and resentful, and you will turn into a victim, and so I always encourage people, you know, as a Corporate Alley Cat, to lead from a position of strength and knowing who you are and not from one of fear and uncertainty.Zach: You've launched Corporate Alley Cat, and it's been growing, and it's been moving forward. What has happened since you've launched Corporate Alley Cat that's affirmed for you that this is the right path and a viable space and the right thing to be doing?Deborah: Oh, yeah. So one, we are very engaged with our audience. I talk to my audience in some form or fashion almost every day, so I get lots of notes, letters. I talk to a lot of people who have shared with me their stories and their challenges and also their opportunities in Corporate America, and they often share with me how they've used the information we've shared to make a change or to help them better have a conversation or to help them get a promotion. Since we've launched, we've started a membership community where people can come and have direct access to all of our webinars, many courses, an Ask Me Anything form, and just a lot of resources to help them navigate on a daily basis in their corporate environment. I did a video on LinkedIn that told the story of how I started The Corporate Alley Cat, and can I tell you--I think it was in less than two weeks we got over 30,000 views. I can't tell how you how many people said, "This is my story too, but I didn't know what to do." So every day I get notes from people sharing their experiences, encouraging me--you know, on LinkedIn I get a lot of notes who just say, "Hey, I follow you. I watch all of your information. Keep doing what you're doing. It's needed." We are now working with corporate organizations who have also tapped into the power of The Corporate Alley Cat, and so we are sharing our resources with them. So we've grown from, you know, two years ago to not having much of an audience to having an audience of over 14,000 in less than two years. We have a very robust community online. Our email community is very large. So people have really responded to this, and I can tell you that all of our presenters who are corporate leaders, they've all said, "Absolutely I want to be a part of this." So I've never had anybody--let me knock on wood--to say no. They all support the vision, and they want to give back, and so it's been a really positive experience for us. It's more than a business for me, Zach. It really is my passion, and it's a culmination of stuff that I've been doing throughout my entire career.Zach: Absolutely. And it's so interesting that you say that. You know, I was talking to someone else who started a platform around black and brown experiences, but from--not just from a corporate perspective, but just in representation across a variety of lifestyle platforms and areas. And it's curious, you know? Any time you're doing any type of work that's really focused on uplifting and affirming black and brown identities or black identities or brown identities exclusively or just underrepresented identities, it has to be the type of work that you truly care about because it's not easy work, and it's hard work, right? So it can't just be a job for you or a side gig for you. It has to really be a part of, you know, your heart strings. It has to really be caught up in who you are, and I definitely see that within The Corporate Alley Cat, and it's really--again, just really encouraging for us. As you know, today we're talking about strategic networking and self-advocacy. Can you talk to us about how these elements in career management come together and why they matter?Deborah: I would say what I've learned over the last two years is that most of the professionals of color who are part of our community--and these are people with advanced degrees and lots of experience--the biggest issue that they have is they don't have strategic relationships in the workplace. The notion that you can just come to work and work hard and move through the organization is a myth. It doesn't operate like that. Often times we come into work, we're [smart about?] the technical side, but we don't have the relationship side. And often times we view the networking and the going to drinks with people after work and the informal conversations as an extra part of their job. I've heard people say, "I don't have the time to do all of that," you know? "I'm working." Well, what I want to share with people is it's not extra. That is a part of your job, to build those relationships, to build your network, because the bigger network your is and the more strategic it is, the better access you have to get things done in the organization. I'll give you an example. Somebody called me recently, and they were very upset about a review they got. And I said, "All right. Well, tell me a little bit about your performance." "The performance was great, but a lot of people didn't know what they were doing." I said, "Well, who do you know in the organization?" They said, "Well, what do you mean?" "Who do you have relationships with? What leaders do you have relationships with? Who can you go to that will advocate for you?" And they'd been in the organization seven years, and they were like, "Well, I don't--I don't really know anybody." I said, "Well, that's part of the problem. No one knows you, and when people don't know you, they're not gonna speak on your behalf. If people don't know you, when they are positioning people for future and current roles your name isn't gonna come up, and if your name does come up there's nobody to vouch for you." So building strategic relationships is really more than networking. It's a very intentional process where you want to identify people where you both can bring value to the relationship. And the other thing is it's a long-term relationship. It's not one of those relationships that you build overnight, right? And the other part that I find with professionals of color is that for those who do have the relationships, they're scared to leverage them. And what do I mean by that? They're scared to go to somebody and say, "Listen," you know, "I'm interested in this director role. Will you support me?" "I'm interested in this. Will you help facilitate some conversations?" "I'm interested in doing XYZ. I'd love to get together with you and figure out how we can create some opportunities here," or "Hey, I'd like to get on this project. I know you're leading it up. I want to be a part of this. Let's talk about how we can make that happen." Often times even if we do have the relationships, we don't leverage them.Zach: And why do you think that is though?Deborah: I think a lot of it, to be perfectly honest, comes down to confidence. I think that's the number one thing, and I understand that. I think a lot of it is fear. "What if I'm rejected?" I think a lot of it is people aren't certain about what they can ask for and what they can't ask for. They don't know what's appropriate and what's not appropriate. And often times--listen, we haven't had models in terms of how to navigate the corporate arena. Now, both of my parents are professionals, but my dad is an attorney. My mom was an elementary school principal. They were both, like, the kings and queens of their domain, right? So this whole idea about how you navigate and how you get mentors, and more importantly advocates, it's new, and often times you don't know what you don't know, and that's really at the heart of why we created The Corporate Alley Cat. So we spend a lot of time talking about how to build those strategic relationships, but more importantly giving people the information about the how-to's, how to build, how to maintain, how to nurture, and more importantly how to leverage those relationships for career advancement and career success.Zach: You talked earlier about the fact that you said--you said sometimes you gotta get a little scrappy. Can you talk to us about how getting a little scrappy and having those strategic relationships come into play?Deborah: Sure. The best example I can give you, Zach, would be to tell you my story. Many years ago, I found myself in a situation where there was discrimination. I was a high performer, never had a bad evaluation, had had a very successful career, particularly if you look at trajectory, and I found myself in a situation where none of that seemed to matter. This was a really difficult situation for me. It was really--I like to use the word horrific 'cause that's what it was. I've shared openly that I lost 20 pounds, my hair was falling out, and it took me about three months to recognize that it was discrimination because I didn't want it to be discrimination. And I didn't know what to do, and if it was discrimination, what the heck do you do? I don't know. You need me to build a business plan? Got it. You need me to exceed this or navigate that, analyze this? Got it, but how do you handle workplace discrimination? I haven't a clue. So once I realized that that was the situation, I began documenting and sharing the information with the person who was doing the discrimination, and when I wasn't getting the kind of results I needed, I put together a letter. It was a very clear, concise, and firm letter, and I sent it to the president of the company. I didn't get bogged down in HR. I went right to the person that I knew could make a decision on this, and I basically said in my opening line, you know, "I'm being treated differently, I'm in a hostile work environment, and my boss is engaging in constructive discharge." So I didn't--you know, I didn't put any flowery language in it, and then I closed it with "I am requesting immediate resolution."Zach: Can I pause you right there? And let me ask you something for our listeners, but could you please explain what constructive discharge is?Deborah: Constructive discharge is when you feel like your boss is trying to get you to quit. Is that accurate? 'Cause you're HR.Zach: It is. Yes, it is when your employer creates an environment, through often times passive-aggressive means, to make it so uncomfortable for you that you really have no choice but to resign.Deborah: Right, and so I felt very much that he was trying to do that. And I wasn't gonna allow that to happen, and the reason why is because I hadn't done anything wrong. He'd never given me any constructive feedback, and I was not going to be a part of this. I was not going to acquiesce. I was not gonna go away quietly. If I'm gonna be uncomfortable, then you're gonna be uncomfortable, meaning the organization, because I was [attacking this?] head on. And listen, I had my moments where I was very--I had a couple months there where I became kind of a shell of who I was, and then I had this moment where I was like, "What the heck are you doing? This is not who you are," and then I got my bearings again, but I knew that I was not going to leave the organization unless they forced me to, and if they didn't have anything then I would escalate that as well, but what happened was I sent the letter in. A week later, the president of the company called me, and I kid you not, in 20 minutes the situation was resolved. So what does that mean? That means that he called. He apologized. He said they should've intervened sooner. He said, you know, "I pulled together the leadership team, and we had a--we discussed this," which, as you know, is your worst nightmare come true, that the leadership team has gathered to discuss you, and that [inaudible] me. And he said, "Unanimously we want you to be with this organization. We want to support you," and so what happened is I took on another role, a more senior role, and I continued to grow with the organization and take on leadership positions. And more importantly--and this is the second phase of the "get scrappy"--when I got into my new position, I became determined that I didn't want anybody else to go through this alone, so I became this very vocal, diverse in inclusion person in my organization, and I think I was very instrumental in making some significant changes. So again, I didn't come out of this situation and sit in the corner and just be quiet and be happy. It let me keep my job. I came in there saying, "We've got to change some things, and I'm gonna be part of that," and so we did. And so that's what I mean by being scrappy, you know? You've gotta be scrappy to advocate for yourself, but you also have to be scrappy and advocate for others, those people who are coming behind you. One of the reasons that I was really clear about making sure I did a lot of documentation is because I said, "If this happens to somebody else, I want to make sure that this organization cannot say they didn't know." So again, having that foresight and thinking about other people who are coming behind you, and getting scrappy is getting out of your comfort zone. Do you think it was easy for me to write the letter? You know, my finger was shaking when I sent that--you know, hit the Send button, right? Because you never know what's gonna happen, right? But that's getting scrappy, getting out of your comfort zone and saying, "I will not stand for this. This is not right. I'm not gonna be a part of this. I'm going to address it. I'm going to honor who I am and what I am," and you take those actions, and I think often times a characteristic that's undervalued is you have to have courage. You have to have courage. If you are a person of color in the workplace, at some point you're gonna have to really get out of your comfort zone and be courageous, and do it even though it feels uncomfortable. Do it, and you'll be surprised by the results you get. And for me it was a game changer because not only was I able to make even more significant contributions to my organization and understand the work I did on diversity and inclusion was not my part--was not my job. I wasn't a diversity and inclusion person. It was kind of my side gig at the job, right? So if it's something you're passionate about, use your voice. And what I say to people all the time, Zach, is you can advocate where you are. You don't have to be in a senior leadership position to advocate, to make changes in the organization. You just need a voice and passion.Zach: Would you mind talking a little bit more about The Corporate Alley Cat and classes you all have around to encourage and build the confidence around networking and self-advocacy and things of this nature? And I ask that explicitly and ask you to plug that beyond the fact that it's a wonderful platform and you're here and we want you to talk about it, but also because, you know, when you talk about being courageous and you talk about, you know, us not having the history and background to really know these things, I just--that resonates so true with me, and I can tell you, Deborah, as someone who is a millennial and who is still, you know, a younger professional, that it's so--it's so common, even within our space, even as social media and--I would say that, you know, we're becoming a little bit more conscious about things in the world around us, even within the corporate space. There's still an overwhelming narrative of, "Look, just put your head down. Stack your coins. Don't say anything." So, you know, what resources would you point our listeners to when it comes to really building up these competencies and learning more about this?Deborah: Sure. And Zach, before I answer that question, can I go back to my story? Because there's two key points I want to make about my story. So I was able to resolve that situation, not on my own. So one of the things that I had to do was I had to reach out to people, and I had to say, "Listen, here's what's going on. I'm not sure how to handle this. I don't know if they're trying to fire me. I really don't know. I have no documentation. Nobody's talking to me. I don't even really know what's going on here." So the first thing I want to say is you've got to reach out to your community, and this is where your strategic networks come into play. When I tell you there were many people working behind the scenes in my situation to support me, I had at least two very, very strong advocates in leadership, and I had many more advocates in other positions, and more than the letter, that's probably what helped resolve my situation. Because people knew me. This narrative didn't fit. They supported me. They knew my performance record. So I want to encourage people to ask for help, and ask for help, as I always say, early and often. In the age of social media that you just mentioned, Zach, Instagram, Twitter, we're all putting on this facade at times that we want people to think we have it all together, right? And some of us are barely hanging on on the inside. Get rid of that shame. There is no shame in asking for help. The real tragedy is when people don't ask for help and they allow their careers to be derailed unnecessarily. So build your community, and I like to use the word community versus network because I believe as people of color, we are born into a community. This community wants to support your entire being. It's beyond what a lot of people think is networking and that transactional type of process, right? These are people who care for you, support you. These are people who are alums from your high school, your college, your church family, your close family, your friends, your friends' friends. I honestly believe that everybody has everybody they need already in their network if they would just reach out to them, but most people don't reach out. So that's the first thing I want to say, ask for help. And then secondly I want to say nobody does it by themselves. If you are spending time struggling to figure out something by yourself, you're wasting precious, valuable time and energy. Ask for help. There's always somebody who knows more than you and who can make it easier for you to navigate those situations. So build those strategic relationships, reach out to them when you need them, and ask for help. And don't be scared to rock the boat, because I say rocking the boat is a good thing. Because think about it, Zach. If you're in a boat, and you rock it, that's how you get momentum, right? If you don't--if you don't rock the boat, what happens?Zach: You're not going anywhere.Deborah: You're not going anywhere. So when people say to me, "Well, I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to ruin my career," often times one of the things I ask people--I'm like, "Well, it doesn't look like you have a career here."Zach: Come on, now. That's what I'm talking about. See? Come on now, Deborah. Yes. [laughs]Deborah: Like, what are you trying to--you know, they've already said this to you. They've already done this. You've already got a bad review. You don't have a career here. What little bit you have is about to go away, right? So that's really--I want people to get away from using that as an excuse to get out of their comfort zone. All right, enough. Enough. I'm getting off my soapbox, Zach.Zach: [laughing] No, this is good. Yeah, so where can people learn more about--where can people learn more about The Corporate Alley Cat? And where can people engage more with this content? This was a wonderful--been a wonderful dialogue. I want to make sure that people know where they can go.Deborah: So you can go CorporateAlleyCat.com. You can also find us on LinkedIn under Corporate Alley Cat. You can join our Professionals of Color Facebook group. We share a lot of good information there. It's on Facebook. Professionals of Color. We're on Instagram, CorporateAlleyCat, and on Twitter, CorpAlleyCat. In addition, on our website we have blogs, so you can get a lot of free information there. At least once a month, we have a free webinar with corporate leaders. So all people need to do is go to our website and sign up for that. We have courses. So we have two summits that are available for purchase. One is called the negotiation summit, and one is called the performance review summit. They both walk you through those processes. We also have career coaches that are available to help you, and I want to say this is really significant because the corporate coaches that we have available to you are people who have been very successful in their career, and they have led HR or employer relationships departments, and so they can give you the real strategy, right? So we approach it from "Let me tell you how the organization is gonna look at the situation." "Here's what the organization's gonna say, here's what they're gonna do, and then here's what you're gonna do." Often times, people don't have access to that strategy. They're just reacting, and what we do is we help people map out that strategy and how they execute it, which is invaluable. We also have a membership community, and we are opening it up for enrollment in September, and that's where you have access to all of our webinars, and that's over 30. You have access to many courses. You have access to our monthly Ask Me Anything form. You have have access to our resource library. So there's a lot of great information there, and I also do work with organizations, so if you are a corporation out there or you lead a corporation and you want to make sure that you are not just recruiting--'cause I think organizations spend so much time on recruiting they forget about retaining and developing that diverse pipeline. What are the things that your talent needs to know to be able to successfully navigate that corporate arena? And that's a win-win for everybody. So there are a lot of ways that you can reach out to us, and we have--we are planning a conference upcoming, so stay tuned for that. But it's not your traditional conference. It's actually gonna be called The Corporate Alley Cat Experience.Zach: When that is coming up to date, keep us in the loop, Deborah, and we'll make sure to let the folks know about that as well.Deborah: Yeah, and the other thing I want to say about our webinars is we do the webinars so people can expand their network. We bring in people that you normally wouldn't have this type of access to, and all of our folks are open to linking in with you. We have people who share their cell phone numbers, personal emails, right? These are people who truly want to support you, but you've got to ask for the help. You've got to allow yourself to be a little vulnerable sometimes.Zach: Absolutely, and Deborah, this has been a wonderful conversation. You know, we definitely want to have you back. Before we let you go, do you have any shout outs for us?Deborah: Absolutely. I always want to give a shout out to the Corporate Alley Cat community 'cause they are bar none the best. The best. They are scrappy. If you've ever gotten on our webinars, they are engaging. I want to shout out to our Corporate Alley Cat leaders and presenters because, listen, our webinars--Zach, have you ever been on one of our webinars?Zach: I've been on one webinar.Deborah: Okay, and I--if you've been on, you know they're not for the faint of heart.Zach: They're not. No, it's real talk.Deborah: We are real talk, and I always open it up by saying we treat you like family. We're gonna be honest with you. You might have your feelings hurt, but we are coming at it from a position of love, and we are vested in your success. So I want to give a shout out to--there are too many people to shout to who support The Corporate Alley Cat, 'cause no one does it alone, Zach. No one does it alone, and that's--if I could leave any parting message that's what it would be, is nobody does it alone, you don't have to be alone, and that there is a community out there that wants to support you and help you achieve your career goals, whatever they may be.Zach: Amen. Deborah, thank you so much for joining us today. Again, your words, your passion, your energy around this are more than encouraging and invigorating. They've definitely encouraged me, even in this conversation, and I know that they're gonna be definitely a blessing to everyone who hears it. So thank you again for your time. We definitely consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back.Deborah: All right, Zach. Stay scrappy.Zach: Absolutely. I'ma stay scrappy. [laughs] You too. Peace.Deborah: [laughing] All right, thank you.Ade: And we're back. I loved that interview, and I am excited to join the Corporate Alley Cat community and check out one of those chats.Zach: Yeah, I've checked it out a few times, and I've enjoyed them every time.Ade: So let me ask you this. What did you take away most from y'all's discussion?Zach: Honestly, I took away that your career is what you make of it, right? So to Deborah's language, we gotta stay scrappy. It doesn't mean that it's some combative, negative, or violently confrontational thing. In fact, you know, it reminds me of the conversation we had earlier this season with DeRay. He was talking about his book, but we were also talking about how you push up against these systems, and he was saying, "Look, everything doesn't have to be so negative," right? But it is about being direct and demonstrating courage. So how did you feel about it?Ade: Very similarly, to be honest. At one point I felt quite attacked, to be frank with you. She was talking about people she was coaching and that they'd say, "Well, I'm gonna hurt my career," and she'd reply with, "Well, sis, you don't have a career here," and I felt dragged. I felt persecuted, frankly.Zach: [laughing] She was knocking on your door?Ade: What? She had kicked my door in, slammed some receipts on my--on my table. You know that Iyanla gif? "Not on my watch." That was precisely what she was doing. [laughs]Zach: Not on my watch. [inaudible] She was shaking your table?Ade: And I was sitting right on the table too. Like, the table she was shaking had my whole career on top of it. So yeah, I really appreciated the approach that she was taking 'cause it was very, very relatable.Zach: You know what? Sound Man, go ahead and drop one of those flex bombs for that, because when she said--when she said you don't have a career? Boom.[Sound Man drops the bomb]Ade: Wow. [laughs] Wow, really?Zach: I literally--in my mind I was like, "Wow, this is, like, one of those [makes boom]." Like, goodness gracious.Ade: Yeah, yeah. It also reminded me of that famous quote from Alice Walker. "The common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any." And for the record, we're not victim blaming here. We're never about that. What we are saying is that we are in the business of pushing up against systems, spaces, and cultures that were not created with us in mind, and that means that sometimes you have to be willing to advocate for yourself. And yes, it's uncomfortable, and yes, it's absolutely challenging, but like you said, your career is what you make of it.Zach: For sure, and we'll make sure to have info in the podcast for everyone who has access to learn more about Corporate Alley Cat.Ade: Beautiful. Well, yeah. Awesome. Cool beans. Up next, we're gonna get into our Favorite Things. Hope you guys enjoy the segment.Zach: So my favorite thing right now is Marc Lamont Hill's book "Nobody: Casualties of America's War on the Vulnerable, from Ferguson, Flint, and Beyond." It's a powerful, gripping read, and it pairs analysis of the stories we see on the news with emotional authenticity. It's been out for some months, but I still really enjoy it.Ade: Awesome. Continuing in that amazing literary tradition that we've set, my favorite thing right now is--actually I have two. One's gonna be fun and one's gonna be more scholarly. My scholarly one is--it's called "Just Mercy" by Bryan Stevenson. It's a book about the American criminal justice system, and anyone who knows me knows that I have a thing for the idea of grace, and it was right in line with, you know, just the conversation about how there is such a dearth of it in the American criminal justice system. So if you're ever interested in picking up a book--it's heavy sometimes, but I recommend that everyone reads it. My second thing--it's a little bit lighter. My favorite thing this week is a purple bag of Doritos. Sweet Spicy Chili. Try it out. You will not be disappointed. I love me some Doritos. [laughs]Zach: Absolutely. Well, shout out to the book recommendation, and also shout out to Doritos. This is not a paid ad. Ade just likes to eat.Ade: Okay. Well, sir, don't we all? [laughs]Zach: Right? We've gotta survive. [laughs]Ade: That felt--that felt a little bit like an attack. [laughs] But yes, they're quite delicious.Zach: Well, dope. Thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with activist, educator, public speaker and host of Crooked Media's Pod Save the People DeRay Mckesson to talk about working while woke and his first book, "The Other Side of Freedom" that is available 9/4/18!About DeRayOrder DeRay's book herePod Save The PeopleCrooked MediaTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. It's Monday, September 3rd, the day before a few things drop. One, Beyonce's birthday. Two, my birthday. Three, Black Panther on Netflix, and last but certainly not least is DeRay Mckesson's book The Other Side of Freedom: The Case for Hope. About the book, Henry Louis Gates Jr. says "On the Other Side of Freedom reveals the mind and motivations of a young man who has risen to the foray of millennial activism through study, discipline, and conviction. His belief in a world that can be made better one act at a time powers his narratives and opens up a new view on the cost, consequences, and rewards of leading a movement. Now, I feel as if you've gotten to know the Living Corporate team this season. For those who know me, they know I'm a genuine admirer of DeRay's work. I love his podcast on Crooked Media called Pod Save the People. So shout out to Brittany, Sam, and Clint Smith III, or Clint Smith "Aye-aye-aye." For me and many folks in my generation, DeRay was the face of a new type of activism that was mobilized through social media. The honesty and, by direct correlation, courageousness of speaking truth to power on such accessible platforms was a major point of inspiration for Living Corporate. Because of this, I'm excited to tell y'all we actually got him on the show to talk about working as a socially-conscious person of color in Corporate America and about his journey in writing his book, The Other Side of Freedom: The Case of Hope. So what you're gonna hear next is an interview I had with DeRay. His book is also one of our Favorite Things, so make sure you check out the links on the show notes and our website, and make sure you preorder it. So while you're jamming to B-Day you could also be reading this book. See y'all on Friday. Peace.Zach: And we're back. And as we discussed before the break, we have DeRay Mckesson. DeRay, welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?[Sound Man throws in cheers]DeRay: It's good to be here. I'm good. I'm good.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling a little bit about yourself?DeRay: Yeah. My name is DeRay Mckesson. I'm an activist, and I have a podcast called Pod Save the People. I used to be a teacher, and I'm committed to the work of social justice. Zach: I follow you on IG. You don't follow me, but it's cool. I get it. I saw a post you made about a note that you got from the FBI after they visited your home in 2016. Can you talk to us about the biggest impacts that purposed activism has had in your life?DeRay: Yeah, I think that--I think that one of the most powerful things about the protests for sure, and I think about when we were all on the street in 2014 in the early days of Ferguson and everything since is that it's helped empower [people who] didn't believe they had power before. I never would've [inaudible] before then. I just, like, didn't--I didn't think about that as a way to sort of force [inaudible], and now I would check on [inaudible] our government only exists [inaudible]--and we've seen over the last three years is people [inaudible] protest [inaudible] how the world can be better and what their role can be in making it better.Zach: So you're not a stranger in these federal or social media streets. In fact, you and I connected some time ago. I believe that we were able to make that connection because you're able to engage in topics around social equity in really courageous but still very approachable ways. You've mentioned in the past your work with Campaign Zero and of course the work that you're doing with Pod Save the People. Wonderful podcast. One of my--my favorite podcasts actually. And the things that you touch and that you curate, I think that--I think they have so much impact because they're so practical and they challenge people of color as well as non-people of color to engage and be part of the solution. Think about Living Corporate--and our audience is primarily people of color in the working world--are there any things that you believe middle-class or affluent people of color are not doing in mass but that could be done to support the movement and the work?DeRay: I don't know [inaudible]--and I'm gonna start from, like, a place of lack, but I think that where can all grow, especially as somebody who used to work in [inaudible] the school system of Baltimore, you know, which was one of the chiefs in my 50-people team and, you know, it's a billion-dollar organization is that always remembering that confrontation doesn't always look one way. So there are ways to show up in rooms where things happen that aren't about equity, aren't about justice, aren't really about our community, that don't focus on us and don't center us but should, and we can push and challenge, but it doesn't have to be a sit-down. It doesn't have to be a storm out of the room. It doesn't have to be a yell. I think about some of the meetings where I've been really successful it's, like, asking the really awful question, right? It's, like, not letting people off the hook and making them to do the cognitive work as approached to preaching to them. Like, those are things that we can do in all settings that are really powerful. The second is that the systems and structures are designed to drown out individuals and, like, make individuals believe they don't have power. That is, like, how the game is set up. What we can do is, like, remember that, like, people have a lot of--like, individuals, individuals who come together to form collectives like [inaudible]. Think about one parent who emailed in at the beginning of the school year when I was the chief human capitol who requested something very specific. She was the only parent we heard from. She was right, and if not for her email we wouldn't have redone this whole plan, but, like, she emailed it, and it was perfect, right? It wasn't about volume. It was about, like, the content, and people just don't know that. They don't realize that systems often take the feedback, but one of the reasons why they don't tell you they take the feedback is 'cause they don't want to deal with 10,000 of you. So that's that, and the third is that, like, you can learn all of these issues too. So I would say to most people, like, find an issue that matters to you that you believe in. Like, try to learn as much about it as possible because that will actually set you up to, like, think about problems and structures in people's lives and really in a powerful way.Zach: So continuing a little bit--'cause I want to talk a little bit more about people of color in these places, right? So I count myself as somewhat socially conscious. At the same time though I still work in structures that really weren't built for me, so let me ask you this. Do you think that there's a way to challenge the systems we're pushing up while still climbing within them? I ask because it seems counter-intuitive on its face to me. I say this as someone, like I said, in the work. I've had very explicit conversations with colleagues who respect Living Corporate's mission, but they're afraid to even kind of publicly support it because they think it's gonna mess their bag up 'cause they don't want to necessarily talk about those things. Like, what would you say to that?DeRay: Yeah. I don't know if I have anything new to say besides, like, knowing that confrontation doesn't always [inaudible]. Like I said, people often think about challenge as, like, some dramatic thing, but I've been in rooms with people I really--you know, I made a decision when somebody came in. I was like, "Even if you say no, can we talk this out and, like, think through it this way?" I'm like, "Yeah, let's talk it out," and, like, "Oh, I didn't see it that way." Like, I think that sometimes we think about challenging in the workplace as some grand statement. It just doesn't have to be like that. The outcome--we just need the outcome to be the outcome. So there are some meetings that are like--I just wouldn't let the question go. So I knew it was the wrong decision, but if I came out and said, like, "I think that you're making a dumb decision," the person would respond in a way that just was not--I wouldn't get the outcome. I would feel better, but I wouldn't get the outcome. So what I can do is say, like, "Hey, what if we play with this option? What if we do this option? Can we talk about options today?" Like, that's actually a way for me to push the thinking and, like, get to where I want, where there are some meetings where you just have to say, like, "No, we're not doing that," right? And, like, if you want to do it that way, then we need to go talk to this person. So, like, just knowing that there are ways to push and challenge, and everything doesn't have to look the same. Zach: You know, I've had some coworkers who will run up on me and show me a Facebook post or a racist article or something--the latest thing the president said and go, "Zach, that's so racist. That's so bad," or they'll even brag about, like, the latest protest they were a part of, but at the same time some of those same people might not necessarily feel comfortable speaking up when [inaudible] morning meetings or cursed out or disrespected in other ways. So certainly you have experience in building meaningful coalitions. What advice would you give to the everyday perhaps well-meaning, aspiring ally on how they can put empathy and allyship into practice?DeRay: Yeah. Whiteness is a shield, and they should use that shield in a way that, like, serves people. So, you know, it often [inaudible]. A lot of white people don't realize that. Like, you and I both know what it's like [to not be listened to and not be heard?]Zach: Right.DeRay: A lot of white people just, like, don't know. Like, they don't know what it's like to, like, literally not be listened to and not be heard. That's, like, a new thing. They aren't, like, ignored, right? So some of it is, like, helping people just see, you know? In classrooms, one of the things that we do is we sit in the back of classrooms and, like, we can tally up the number of positive to negative things that the teacher says, and that gives a sense of what's going on in the classroom. Same thing in board rooms and in meetings. We can tally, like, who gets called or [inaudible] power is working in a given space. So you've got to step into the discomfort, and there are moments when, like, you know that something's off, and again, like, confrontation doesn't always have to look the same. 'Cause you can say, like, "Oh, no, I wanted to hear you first." Like, you can share your space. You can share power. You can create space. You can create power. Like, I think there are a host of things that people can do that don't have to feel like that or even actually be [inaudible]. The impact is really powerful.Zach: No, I agree with that, and it's something that you've--again, you've reiterated it a few times, but I do think when we talk about the work or we talk about, again, kind of pushing up again these systems and things like that, we often think about something really combative or antagonistic, and it doesn't always have to be like that. That's something that kind of reminds me--like, a common thread in the things that you say, especially on Pod Save the People, that just the human element of it, right? Like, actually being able to build that connection. Like you said, giving up space for that person. "Hey, I wanted you to talk first." You're doing a lot there without you having to necessarily be in any way negative, quote unquote. So let's do this. Let's talk about The Other Side of Freedom. It happens on Beyonce and I's birthday, September 4th. So air horns for that.[Sound Man obliges]Zach: But why a book? Why now? And what do you want people to take from it?DeRay: Yeah. So I was--you know, I've been reflecting on all of the places I've been, and I wanted to share them because I've been to a lot of places. I've been in the street in a lot of cities. I've been a teacher. [inaudible]. I think about, like, what are the lessons? Like, what are the [themes?] This was my attempt to look at all of the stories and then say, "Here are the tools that I took out of them." [inaudible] is, like, a sermon that's called [inaudible] Story. I loved the title, but I didn't know what it meant, and I listened to it, and he talks about sometimes you can tell your story [inaudible] so all you see is the pain not the purpose. I'm at a point now where I can think about the big lessons and themes that I got. [inaudible]Zach: So it seems like book writing is a lot of work, right? Like, I've seen your posts. You know, I've seen your posts on Instagram. You've posted the various edits and revisions that the book went through, and then you went to the copying center, and it just seemed like a lot to do. In your journey of writing your book, is there anything you learned about yourself?DeRay: I learned a ton of things. You know, some things--I spend most of my time writing online. Like, writing on Twitter. [inaudible] all the way out, you know, in essay for the reader and the writer, and I needed to process a lot of things, so it was important to me about writing [inaudible], and I had to process a lot of feelings and emotions. And writing about my mother. I talk about my mother a lot, but I've never written about in this way so I needed to do--like, I was pushed in my own personal space. So that was really healthy. And, like, things about the essay on the police. It's, like, there's a lot of research we [never put anywhere?] I want it put somewhere. So yeah, the book was really a growing experience.Zach: DeRay, this has been a great discussion, man, and I want to thank you again for coming to the show. Before we again, do you have any shout outs?DeRay: Please buy the book. I'm excited. Have conversations with people about the book, and we have a lot more to do. Zach: Absolutely, yeah. So the book is called The Other Side of Freedom. DeRay, we'll make sure that we put it in the show notes, and then we'll also be listing it on our website as a Favorite Thing so people can make sure that they have no excuse not to get it. Thank you so much for your time, man.DeRay: Thank you so much.Zach: All right, peace.DeRay: Bye-bye.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We discuss the idea of being a black executive in Corporate America with Frost Bank President Michael Williams.Michael Williams' LinkedInHelp Beat Triple Negative DCIS Breast CancerTRANSCRIPTZach: It was a dream job, the type of assignment that could make or break the career of an ambitious executive with an eye towards the top. "It was my first big promotion," says Bernard J. Tyson, the 57-year-old CEO of Kaiser Permanente, a health care company with nearly $60 billion in annual revenue. The year was 1992, and Tyson, then in his early thirties, had been named administrator of one of Kaiser's newest hospitals in Santa Rosa, California. "Everyone knew this was the hospital to lead," he says. His physician partner, an elderly white gentleman named Dr. Richard Stein, was less excited by the news. "It was one of those "Guess who's coming to dinner?" sort of welcomes," Tyson recalls, and it went downhill from there. The two men were constantly at odds, unable to collaborate, with most conversations ending in angry standoffs. "He would say something, and I would react," says Tyson. "It was the most difficult relationship I have ever had." Failure seemed inevitable. One day, Stein invited Tyson for a walk. "He said, "I have to confess something to you, something that may end our relationship,"" Tyson recalls. "I have never worked with a black man like this." He meant as a peer. Stein, it seems, didn't know what to say, to act, what to expect. Tyson saw it for the opening it was. "It was this moment I realized the majority of the population doesn't have any sort of mental road map for how to relate to and work with someone different from themselves." This is an excerpt from Why Race and Culture Matter in the C-Suite, an article written by Ellen McGirt, for Fortune Magazine, and I believe it highlights the reality many people of color in leadership face every day. Being in spaces where few of us are present is challenging enough, but compounding that with the task of leading teams, as in telling them what to do? How does one succeed in that environment? Further, what does success even look like? This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about what it means to be a leader of people while also being a person of color in Corporate America.Ade: Yeah. So to be honest, I usually get so focused on making sure that I'm good in my career and navigating all the nonsense involved with making sure that my individual contributions are recognized. I usually don't even think about what it means to lead a team full of people who don't look, think, or behave like I do.Zach: I know, right? And to your point, all of those things you just mentioned, they're critical and of course very important and really don't change as you become a leader, but it's interesting because when you look at that article that I read by Ellen McGirt, it highlights Bernard Tyson's experience about white men having to engage him as a equal. So I'm a manager, so I'm not an executive. I'm not a CEO. Nothing fancy like that. I'm the manager, but even as my managerial experience, I can say that beyond leading a team, being in a position where folks who would typically have to--or typically would overlook me actually have to submit to listening to my ideas and my proposals and my direction. It's been a really interesting experience. Ade: Hm. So I hear you, I get your point, but do you perhaps have any examples for us?Zach: For sure. So a few years ago I was working on a project where I was dealing with a manager, and I was telling them what the approach should be for a specific task. I was walking them through the methodology and just the reason and rationale behind why we were gonna make this approach, and as I'm talking to him his face starts just turning bright red. Ade: What? [laughs]Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Like, it's like he ate, like, a habanero pepper or a ghost pepper, and he's trying to hold it in that it's not spicy. Like, he doesn't want anyone to know it's spicy, right? So he's just sitting in there, and his head is shaking, and he's got a little vein bulging out the side of his head. I'm like--Ade: What in the world?Zach: I know! And so I'm talking to him, and I'm just kind of--I'm just having my normal--I'm not talking at him, right? I'm just talking to him. I'm having a normal exchange, and I'm trying to, like, keep up the same casual cadence of my talk while seeing him clearly, clearly be uncomfortable.Ade: Huh. So I'm just curious. Like, was there anyone else in the room who saw this? Who, like, witnessed what was going on and pointing it out?Zach: Yeah. So I was in the room, then my manager was in the room, and he was in the room of course. So they saw this the whole time, and it wasn't like a one-time occurrence, right? So for those folks listening like, "Well, maybe it was just a one-time thing. Maybe he had a hard day." He had multiple hard days, okay? Ade: [laughs] It be like that sometimes.Zach: [laughs] Right? It happened so many times. It happened, like, literally every time we spoke. We spoke once a week for, like, two months, two or three months, and I'm like, "This happens every single time." So now--even when I spoke to my manager about it, I'm like, "Hey, are you noticing this?" Like, "Do you see what's happening here?" You know, she was even reluctant to admit and acknowledge, like, "Oh, I do notice this," and so why she was so uncomfortable talking about the situation and why she was even more reticent to talk to other people about the situation, including, like, our project manager, is for another podcast, but needless to say it was pretty weird.Ade: Okay. Well, I know that you've had experiences as a manager. I personally have not. I am, like we've said multiple times, at the beginning of my career, but wouldn't it be great if we had someone on the show who had about 20 years of experience as an executive within the finance industry, which--Zach: 20 years?Ade: 20. I would argue that the finance industry is one of the most politically-charged spaces, but you didn't hear that from me. So I'm not sure. I feel like it would be good if we had someone who has had to climb multiple ladders, maybe build coalitions of support, maybe who has had active participation as a leader in his community and has acted as a mentor to other people of color.Zach: Hm. You mean like--wait a minute, let me check my notes--you mean like our guest Michael Williams?Ade and Zach: Whaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns]Ade: Never gonna get tired of that. [laughs] All right, so next we're going to get into our interview with our guest Michael Williams. Hope you guys enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as Ade said, we have Michael Williams on the show. Michael, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the pod, man.Michael: Man, thank you so much for inviting me.Zach: Absolutely. So for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about your background?Michael: Sure, sure. I guess--where to start? I'm originally from Dallas, but I moved here and attended Texas Southern University and the University of Houston. Met my wife, who is an only child, and guess what? I was gonna stay a Houstonian. So after school--I had always wanted to be in banking, so I started down that line of pursuing a career in banking, and I have not looked back since. I guess it's been going on 27 years. 26, 27 years. Somewhere in there. I need to do the math. It's in there.Zach: [laughing] That's awesome. So when did you first start leading and managing teams in Corporate America?Michael: So I've been leading a team of corporate bankers for about eight years now, and I actually--for the bank I'm currently employed, I actually am what's called a market president. I run the entire [Southwood?] side for the bank. So I have a team of 13 commercial lenders that work directly for me, and the way we're structured, while I don't do anything in the branches, I have three branches--excuse me, five branches where my people are located, but all of those individuals have a dotted line responsibility under me as well. So while I in effect manage 13 directly, I have actually management I guess authority for somewhere over about 40, 45 people.Zach: Wow, that's amazing. So, you know, this show we're talking about--we're talking about leading while black, and so can you explain a bit for the audience--and shoot, for myself as well--the difference between being a manager and being an executive? And in your career, how do you manage that shift?Michael: Sure, sure. You know, it's--one of the things I continue to do is just aspire to read. I'm an avid reader, and I've read many books on not only how to manage but also--frankly, if someone would have told me management was more about managing the people relative to how they coexist, I would've actually got--instead of getting a degree in finance, I would've gotten a degree in psychology, because really that's where the buck stops. If you can understand that you have influence as a manager, you can easily--and I don't mean just regular influence. I mean you have to understand that everything you do has the ability to set the table up for your future, and those decisions that you make, you need to be calculating because you have the ability to influence people without you even knowing it. And so when I made the switch is when I decided to get an advocate for me at a senior level that allowed that person to see me and my skill set and be able to be my advocate above my pay grade to allow people to say, "Okay, this guy, he not only knows what he's doing, but he's also someone that we can actually incorporate into our senior management team."Zach: That's really interesting. Can you talk a little bit more about when you say advocate and really what you mean when you say advocate, and what were some of the things that they were able to do for you as you were able to transition into that next level of leadership?Michael: Sure. Here's the one thing we all have to--the people who--the vast majority of your audience needs to understand. As a minority--and I'm African-American, so as an African-American minority, the one thing that we don't have is direct access to the highest levels of any corporation, and in many instances, as it stands today, there are not gonna be a lot of people that look like us. And so I remember back when I was at another institution and there was one senior-level African-American gentleman there. That individual decided that it was in his own best interest not to uplift and promote and advocate for younger African-Americans. It was a sad--it was a sad sight to see. It was a very difficult experience to go through personally, but what I learned from that, I took away from that is I will never do that to anyone.Zach: Amen.Michael: Because people sitting back trying to figure out how to gain more ability--excuse me, more control and/or allow their skill set to show that they have the ability to be at the next table, and he would block them 100%.Zach: Wow.Michael: And so my career has been all about making sure that I help those coming behind me who have the requisite skill set and the requisite training. That's first and foremost. So in terms of--in terms of understanding your point, how you make that switch, the biggest thing is you need to--I said find an advocate, but you also, in my mind, have to bring people up behind you that are highly competent and qualified, and now you've got this team of people around you, and if you have that advocate, they see that and they want talent. They want talent absolutely. They just have not been used to having talent, and they certainly--in terms of African-American talent. So they don't necessarily embrace that, but what they do is they lead those people to the side to try to figure out who's on first, what's on second, and how you actually get to tell them you're on first and John is on second and Theodore is on third or whatever the case is is you have to embrace getting someone to get to know you. So in my--in my (life?) career, when I figured that out in my previous institution, I actually had the chairman of the bank--excuse me, the president of the bank here in Texas as my mentor. Today, I've got the president of the bank as my mentor. He is the #2 in the bank. We meet on a quarterly basis. I don't ask him for anything. I ask him for his time, and I want to share his--I want him to share his thoughts, and he wants to hear my thoughts about a various, just a various amount of things. It has nothing to do directly with "How do I get promoted?" "How do I do this?" It's all about just communication, because what I'm trying to do and what I have learned, if you break those walls down and are able to communicate, then that allows that person to see you as someone that they can feel comfortable with, and that really is the biggest barrier to any minority trying to break into the upper levels of executive management if it's not your company because they don't know us as a people, as a rule. All they do is listen to, unfortunately, Fox News and other similar detracting and negative news accounts about us as a people in general, and they make these generalizations without knowing you individually.Zach: We introed the show talking about and sharing a story from Bernard Tyson, who is the CEO of Kaiser Permanente, his experience in having to deal with individuals who had never worked with a black man as a peer. So I'm curious to know how many instances you've had where you've said, "Wow, you've clearly never worked with a black man before." Like, has that happened? And if so, would you mind sharing a story or two?Michael: Sure, sure. That has absolutely happened, and you could see it coming 100% down the line. It's amazing. I've had it happen so many times, but I remember a couple of different instances. I'll give you a couple stories. One, as a young analyst, you know, all of us who come through commercial lending, investment banking, all of these corporate-type lending groups, we all have to go through this vetting process and this training process, and it's generally about a year, and we'd learn all this stuff, and then we're out--we're put into these groups, and we're analysts, so we're at the bottom of the rung, right? We're [runts?]. And so I'm in this group, and this--[laughs] calling him a gentleman is good. It's way above where he was in [inaudible], however this gentleman ran the group, and this was--this was in the early '90s. And so this guy--to give you kind of just an overall view of who he is, this guy would smoke in his office. It was illegal to smoke inside of the building, but he would smoke in his office. But he was an old head, he was a successful old head, and senior management didn't bother him. So they let him smoke in his office. Well, okay. So this guy, the manager of group, he was clear that he did not like me, and he made himself clear by several different things that he did. And I'll give you one nice example. So I am in the habit of drinking a gallon of water today, and actually I still do that to this day, and I had my jug that had a lot of water in it, and we were in meetings, and he turns to me in front of everybody and says, "Why do you have all that water?" "Because I like to drink a lot of water." He said, "Well, you know what? That is so sophomoric of you. It's like you're a little kid with a jug." I was like, "Whoa. Okay, this is just water." So we go forward. I take that as a note and I keep moving. Of course I didn't get rid of my water. I just decided to hide it from him all of the time. So there was an instance where when we get into work in the morning we would go get something to eat for breakfast, 'cause typically we'd have to get in early, so we typically would get something to eat for breakfast. My counterpart, the young analyst that was with me, would go--she would check into the office, sit down, turn her computer on, and then go get something to eat. I would go get something to eat, come back, check in and sit down and get something--and start working. I was told that I was habitually late. Now, mind you, I got in before it was the normal working hours all of the time, but because I got breakfast first, came back to my desk, she came to her desk, checked in, meaning face time--and I'm using total air quotes right now--Zach: Right. [laughs]Michael: Meaning face time. It was acceptable to do what she was doing and unacceptable to do what I was doing, and these are very small, minor things, right? Well, one thing everyone needs to take away from anything--if you don't take anything else away from what I'm saying, it is absolutely this - you cannot progress, move up, move forward in any career unless management likes you. Period. Stop. End of story. You could be the most highly-qualified, the brightest--have the brightest mind, have the best work ethic, but if your manager does not like you you will not be able to move up. As a matter of fact, your job is in peril and you don't even know it.Zach: So that was when you were, you know, a new analyst. You were coming in. You were getting hired. You're working for the old head. Was there anybody--was there any instance or experience you had as a leader where you were like, "Wow. Okay, you've clearly never dealt with a person of color before." Michael: Oh, sure. Sure. So we're working on a very sizeable transaction, and my team is managing--I am managing my team, and it's one of my lender's opportunities, and this deal is north of $100 million, so it's gonna be a nice year--Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You said one zero zero million dollars?Michael: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I do corporate lendings, so, I mean, I've worked on several significant-sized transactions for many publicly-traded companies in my past.Zach: Wow.Michael: So at any rate, this is gonna be our year. This deal is basically gonna make our year. So this is my deal. We're working on it, and unbeknownst to me there was some chatter in the background by a counterpart, so another manager, and this person made some questionable comments about me and my ability to lead us through the closing of this deal. I had never even interacted with this guy, so the things that he was saying about me and my inefficiencies. He went on about being efficient, not having ever done a deal of this size before, it actually needs to be done by him and his group. Zach: Wow.Michael: You know? And I sat back and I said, "Wow, interesting." For me, one of the things I'm real keen on is documentation, and so along the way of that particular process I was able to have my documentation in order so that the president, who was the final arbiter, came down to find out what was going on and why we were having some discord, and I simply said, "I'm not sure." And this is another nice little note here. Michelle Obama said it best. "When they go low, we go high." Never get into the mud when people are throwing mud at you. Never. Never. Because you will never win that situation as a minority. You will never win that situation. Even if you win that situation, you've lost. You've just lost because they're already afraid of you, they don't know you, and then now you've got quote-unquote real with somebody, oh, they don't want you around. They don't want you around. That scares the living crap out of them.Zach: But this is my thing. So Michael--like, for those--you know, I've known you, or at least I've known of you for a while, and so I know--but you are a keep it real type of dude, and you're definitely not, like, a back down kind of guy. So let's talk about this documentation and how you stood up for yourself, right? 'Cause I know that's not who you are, so let's keep it real, right? Like, let's--Michael: [laughs] Oh, you are so real with it, and I will admit 100% to have always been an enforcer. I'm just gonna be clear about that. I'm not gonna lie about who I am as a person. Zach: Amen. [laughs]Michael: I grew up--I didn't give you all of the background, but I grew up in the projects of south Dallas. So I grew up fighting. I know how to fight, man. That's not even a question. These hands are real good. These hands are real good. However, what I've--what I've learned over my career is that in order for me to be who I want to be--and now, maybe earlier on I probably would've put hands on him or done something that probably would have not allowed me to move forward as far as I have today, however he caught me at a time in my life where I know better, and I know that I am--my level of intelligence taught me early on, through my mistakes probably, but I wanted to be able to be smarter, more intelligent, and more calculating. I can't say that enough. Here's my phrase that I say all of the time. "I play chess, not checkers." And in life and in Corporate America, it's always chess. If you think you're playing checkers, you've just lost. It's always chess. You've got to think two to three steps ahead and why is that going on and why did that just happen? See, it just didn't happen for a reason. Something happened. And oh, by the way, there are multiple conversations going on without you even knowing about it. You don't even know conversations are happening and they're happening. So it's not about trying to be paranoid or being paranoid. It's all about realizing that they're having these conversations, making these judgments, making some assumptions about you without you even knowing about it. So go back to your question. I have always documented what's going on, and I've always done that to the point of understanding two things. One, it helps me to make sure I'm clear about what's going on, and then two, there's a little saying--although I've never been soothed, there's a little saying that says, "Everything is discoverable," meaning I look at--I look at every situation like there's a lawsuit pending, and as long as I'm looking at it like there's a lawsuit pending or this could promote a lawsuit, I make sure that not only am I keeping my ducks in a row, but I make sure I limit the things that I say that are a part of public record, be it in writing or orally, because I want to limit my exposure while documenting and keeping up with what everybody else is doing.Zach: See, the thing about it is I'm kind of--I'm kind of shook, to be honest with you. Right? [laughs] I'm kind of like, "Okay." Like, I'm listening to you, and honestly I'm hoping that my sound man puts a little bit of House of Cards type music in the background because I'm hearing what you're saying. I don't disagree, right? So this is just good information to have, and I'm a few rungs down the ladder, and so politically understanding how to navigate these spaces--and there are plenty of people who are listening to this show who are aspiring to get there. I'm curious though. We have folks in our spaces, and I think as you know when you look at the history of civil rights and just black liberation, you have to have allies. You have to have folks that don't look like you who are advocating for you. You talked about advocacy at the beginning of our interview. I'm curious to know--you know, there are people who do look like us, but there are people who don't look like us also who listen to this show who are passionate about diversity and inclusion, who are passionate about being supportive and really leading that next generation. What advice do you have, right, for our non-Wakandan brothers and sisters listening in?Michael: As I cross my arms and let my fists down.Zach: And bounce your shoulders a little bit. [laughs]Michael: [laughs] Right, bounce up a little bit. Let me tell you this. The thing that I can say is judge people--I mean, it's funny. MLK said it best. "Judge people for the content of their character, not for the color of their skin." Yes. Are there people out there that have--are trying to run a [gang?] Maybe not as qualified but have snuck into the door, yes, but guess what? That's on both sides. Zach: Hm.Michael: That is not exclusive to minorities, and in particular African-American minorities. That's on both sides of the equation. So judge people for their content, their capacity, and their intellect. That's how you--that's how someone with aspirations of being an advocate can do--get work in whatever their chosen field of human endeavor is, because there--first of all, there's not enough room at the top for everyone. Period. Stop. End of story. Full stop. However, people get passed over for reasons that, in a lot of instances, didn't have to be necessarily. But it happens because that's life, right? You know, life is truly Mike Tyson's big ol' heavy hands. It just keeps coming at you, and you're gonna get your butt knocked down, and you gotta figure out whether or not you can get up and/or have the will and the power to get up because they gonna come right back at you. Those people who get up, those people who have that fighting instinct, who are intelligent, who are hungry, those are the individuals. If you can just look at them for who they are and what they bring to the table, that's a good deal.Zach: Absolutely. I'm curious--I'm curious about this, kind of as a follow-up to really what you just said. You know, are there any--are there any specific experiences or points of advice you've received in your career that have stuck with you and really helped you drive and continue forward to the place where you are today?Michael: One, have that drive, have that inquisitive nature. Always ask the question. You don't ever know what the answer is, nor should you think you would know the answer, but you've got to be willing to ask the question. And once you ask the question? Oh, by the way, learn and don't repeat whatever it is you did before. Okay? So I'm a big one-time guy. Ask me the question or let me ask the question one time or tell me one time, I got it. I've got to move forward. Now, the responsibility thereafter is on me 'cause you told me. So now I want to demonstrate whatever it is. I have the capacity not only to remember what's supposed to happen here but to incorporate it into what I'm doing and move forward. That's one. Two, more important than anything else, never ever lose yourself. Whoever you are, it is you. God brought you into this world. Your experiences up to whatever that point is have made you who you are. Never lose yourself. Learn to navigate within the political world that we live in, especially in Corporate America, and refine your edges. Like you said, you've known me. You guessed that I was a fighter, [laughs] but I've learned to smooth my edges out and to be able to be--to walk in any room and strike up a conversation. Insert name here, insert title here puts his pants on every single day like I do, one leg at a time. So he's no more special than I am in that regard. All he has done is he has made himself or have been able to get the breaks to make himself--put himself in a leadership position. Maybe at the top of the company. Maybe at the next level. It doesn't matter. He's still a person who puts his clothes on--his pants on one leg at a time, therefore I have the ability to interact with this person and find maybe some level of commonness that would allow us to engage in conversation and then, again, continuing to erode any kind of preconceived notions and ideals about who I am simply because I showed up and my skin was a little bit darker than yours. Zach: This is just so helpful, Michael. Thank you so much for joining us today. Before we let you go though, do you have any plugs? Any shout outs?Michael: Oh, what could I shout out? I could shout out my wife's foundation. I lost my wife now seven years ago to breast cancer, and I started a foundation for her in an effort to help find a cure for this dreaded, horrible cancer called triple negative DCIS cancer. It is one of the most aggressive forms of breast cancer for--unfortunately for African-American women, and we have an annual walk to celebrate her life, but also to raise funds. We raise funds through corporate giving as well. The website is www.YEF.org, and that stands for Yolanda E. Williams Foundation. YEF.org. You can go on the site. We're preparing for our October walk now. The date has not been set. We will be doing that in a matter of weeks, and you can go on the site and check that out. And so my plug is help me figure out, through raising funds and donating to research, how to get rid of this scourge called triple negative DCIS breast cancer. I don't want anything else.Zach: Amen. So this is what we're gonna do. So first of all, we'll make sure that we have that website in our show notes, and we'll shout that out when we publish this, and then what we'll also do is when you confirm the date, Michael, let us know, and we'll make sure that we shout that out on the podcast as well.Michael: I will do just that.Zach: Okay. Well, first of all, just thank you so much for joining the call. I appreciate you joining the show. I appreciate the insights and just stories that you've been able to share. We wouldn't have had you on the show if we didn't know and trust that you would give us honest, frank, transparent conversation, and I believe we've had that today. We'd like to think you're a friend of the show, and I want to thank you again, and we hope to have you back real soon.Michael: I look forward to it.Zach: All right, Michael.Michael: Count me as a friend.Zach: I will. All right, now. Peace.Michael: All right. Thank you.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. One thing it did remind me of though was the fact that we interviewed a black man, but because the way the system is set up--you know, sexism, racism, and all of the other -isms--I believe that if we had had a black woman on the show talking about this we might've had a slightly different conversation due to the relationship of being a black woman in positions of authority.Zach: You know what, I agree. If you don't mind though, go ahead and expound on that.Ade: Right. So I'm sure you've heard of intersectionality, although for those of our listeners who haven't, it's simply the idea that there are--that your identity form different axes of the way you relate with the world, and so that means your relationships with the world and with certain aspects of the world such as Corporate America as a black man differs from mine as a black woman, and there are different aspects of that. So your sexuality also interacts with that. Your age interacts with that. Your class interacts with that. And so all of that said, I think that if we think about things like the angry black woman trope and how that would reflect in being a leader and how, for example, black women usually aren't allowed to get angry or to express dissatisfaction with anything, otherwise it's "Oh, she's so bitter. She's so angry," as opposed to "No, I'm rightly disappointed in your work product," and all the other ways in which that could affect, you know, the final outcome as a--as a leader. I definitely would like to have that conversation with a black woman in maybe a part two, you know?Zach: You know what? That's a good point, and I agree. Let's make sure that we get a part two on the schedule and get going on that.Ade: Most def. I definitely want to interview, like, an Oprah. Trying to get my auntie on the show. Maybe a Viola Davis. Let's see what we can pop on. How are you feeling?Zach: I feel great about that. You said a Viola Davis?Ade: Or an Oprah. You know, I'm not too picky.Zach: An Ava DuVernay, perhaps?Ade: Ava DuVer--see? [inaudible]Zach: Maybe an Issa Rae?Ade: Stop it. I have a girl crush on her. I have a crush crush on her, but I also have a girl crush on her.Zach: I have an artistic cross on Issa Rae for sure. I was gonna say Issa DuVernay, which would be an amazing combination if both of those, like, fused into one person. My gosh.Ade: Oh, my God. Think of awkward black girl but [shot by?]--[Sound Man throws in a swerve sound effect]Zach: What?Ade: [laughs] Okay, now we're going down different tangents. Okay, anyway. Today we have a listener letter, so as a reminder to everybody at home, we encourage conversation, and so we're looking forward to reading any letters, comments, questions from everyone. So let's get into it. So today we have this letter. We're gonna call this listener Nicole, and let's read Nicole's thoughts. Okay, so it says, "Hi, guys." Hi. "I love your podcast and your insightful advice. This is a career question." All right, let's go. "I usually don't ask anyone I don't personally know about advice, but when I told my circle of friends about this particular situation they were stumped. They didn't know what to say, so here we go. I've been at my job for close to three years, and I've adapted to the many changes that came within my department. A year in, I got switched to a different sector of my department, which meant that I was part of a team of two - the manager and I. My manager has been working with this company for close to ten years and is jaded by all of the politics that comes with working at a large company and in our department. She's much older than me and has been working in this particular industry for decades. My manager and I obviously make for a small department since it's just the two of us, but we're overloaded with work and last-minute projects, which sucks, but it's part of the inner workings of the culture. Anyway, very recently my manager was having a meeting with the director during which the convo switched to me. I was not attending the meeting, but my name came up. The director then asked my manager, "How are you expanding her role?" It seemed as though it was a slew of questions about my potential and what my manager was doing for me in order to make that happen. This didn't seem to go over too well. When I came back from lunch, my manager was venting to me about this meeting. She basically told the director that if she, being my manager, is unclear of her own role and didn't see how she could advance in the company, how could she advance me? And this is just a paraphrasing of the events. And so while she was venting I was simply nodding my head because what else could I say to someone who feels stuck in their job and is managing me? For someone who is much older, I thought she was gonna be a good example, but I've come to realize she isn't. Lately I've been looking for new jobs that pay better because even though my department seems to make millions for the higher-ups, they're stingy when it comes to raises. I've only received one raise, which equated to pennies in my paycheck." Pennies? Oh, Lord. Okay, all right. Anyway. "Should I hit the pavement looking for a new job that pays more or should I try to stick it out and work with my jaded manager? Thanks again, and I hope to get some encouraging advice. Nicole." My goodness. Okay, Nicole. There's so much happening here. I don't--I hate to sound like a typical situation, but this really did rock Zach and I when we gave this a first read-through. And so, Zach, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna go ahead and give my thoughts on it. Or did you want to go first?Zach: The floor is yours.Ade: Okay. So as I see it, there are, like, several different layers of suck here. I'm sorry that--first of all, I'm sorry that you're going through this. It's not a fun or funny situation when you feel as though your career is in the hands of someone who doesn't care about you, but like I said, there are several different layers, and I think it would be best to separate all of those things. So on the one hand, you have a situation where--and at the beginning of Living Corporate, we actually had--I believe it's our very first episode--where we were talking about separating your sponsors for your mentors, knowing the two and leveraging the two. Currently I believe what you need is a sponsor, not a mentor. Your current mentor isn't doing her job. And then the other issue is the matter of your money and getting a new job. So I'm just gonna address them one after the other. So I believe you need to go on the hunt for a sponsor, whether that is within your company, somebody who has a role that you eventually see yourself taking. So obviously this requires first figuring out what you want your trajectory to be at this current moment. That doesn't mean that it can't change, but I believe that everybody needs a five-year plan for themselves. And so in five years, where do you see yourself? In ten years, where do you see yourself? And find people who have optimized their career and go talk to them, whether it's within your company or without. Go on coffee dates. Hit people up on LinkedIn. And I promise you that's not a weird thing. I just came to realize that myself. Like, I'll hit up people on LinkedIn and just kind of ask them to go for coffee or, you know, get their thoughts on certain things. So that's one. The other is that, you know, I understand that you might be feeling hurt, but what your manager is going through is about her and not you, and so although it feels as though she's kind of set herself up as a barrier instead of helping you in your career, I wouldn't take that too personally. Don't let that reflect in your work. If anything, allow that to spur more conversations with, again, those sponsors that you're looking for because they're the ones--within your company, they're the ones who will be putting you on new projects, who will be putting you in places, in rooms, in situations where they feel you have the potential to progress. And outside of your company, those sponsors are the ones who will slide you those job links like, "Hey, I saw this come up. I think you'd be a perfect fit in this situation. What do you think? Go ahead and apply," which brings me to my next point. Any raise that's pennies per paycheck--Zach: Yeah. If that's literal then yeah, that's a pause-worthy statement.Ade: Yeah, that's not it. That's not the lifestyle that I'm hoping and praying for for all my people. I was actually just having this conversation with a group of my friends that closed mouths don't get fed, and it's very typical, particularly of people of color, particularly of women of color, to feel as though we should be grateful for, you know, the pennies as opposed to asking for the thousands, and I don't know if that's gonna, for you, look like--and this is all gonna be personal to you, whether you feel as though you need to be in this company and so you need to figure out how to have the conversation about raises or if you need to step outside and start looking for new jobs. And to that I would say optimize your LinkedIn, get your resume together. If you need to find a professional to look at your resume for you or if, again, those sponsors that you're looking for can take a look at your resume and help you in that regard. But I would definitely say you should start networking. Go to industry events. So whatever your industry is, Meetup is a really good place to find organizations or groups where you can network and meet people and kind of--if you have business cards--give your business cards out, ask people out to coffee at those events. People there are open and willing to mentor you, but you just have to ask. And so those would be my two biggest recommendations for you, and definitely, definitely, definitely keep your head up because this is something that I can relate to personally, and I'm sure Zach has, in some form or fashion, been in a position where he's had to advocate for himself, but you are always your own best advocate, and so this is just a matter of fine-tuning the language and finding the people who are willing to listen to you. Zach, what you got?Zach: Yeah. I mean, one I absolutely agree with your point, right? With all the points that you've made. Ultimately, just to keep it a little bit more succinct, I think it comes down to two things. First of all, you are your best advocate, and then two it's your own career. So it's really one point, right? So you have a couple things here, right? So you have challenges internally where you have your manager who's a bit frustrated and jaded to the language that you're used to, and you now have concerns if they're going to be able to advocate for you. Well, like to what we've been saying, rejecting the premise that anyone else is responsible for advocating for you and that you own your career, it starts with you saying, "Okay, what is it that I want to achieve here?" And then just talking to people, knocking on doors inside your company and being like, "Look, this is what I want to do. This is how I want to do it. Can you help me?" And be comfortable with the people who say no. And they may say no by just flat out saying no. They may say no by just not following up. They may say no by some long-winded answer, but just be comfortable with the people saying no 'cause eventually you'll find someone saying yes. Now, if you can't find the yes internally then it is time to leave, and you already were talking about the fact that you're looking for--you're exploring another opportunity. So your salary--like, your salary is a personal problem. So what do I mean by that? Your salary is a personal problem, meaning you having an issue with your salary, that's an issue between you and you. So you need to figure out a way how you're gonna answer that question. So are you going to get put together a case internally and say, "Hey, look. This is the number I'm looking for because I haven't had a raise in this many years," or "I've only had this one raise," or whatever the case is, or are you going to find another job, right? So plenty of studies show that when it comes to job hunting, you know, you're gonna get a bigger bump transitioning away from a company than you are staying inside. And I'll--there might be people who argue or disagree with me on that. If you do, please send in a letter, send in your comments. And there's more to a job than just your salary, but my point is you have to figure out a way to address that for yourself, right? And, like, I'm not attacking you. I definitely understand where you're coming from. I've definitely been there, where I've got caught up in the illusion of waiting for people to advocate for me, but I realized that people only advocate for you as much as it helps themselves. And so your manager who has her frustrations and things of that nature, that's perfectly human, and she shouldn't be shamed for that. At the same time, that's not your problem. Your problem is how are you gonna make sure that you take care of yourself? So Nicole, like, we're really excited about you sending us another letter, like, letting us know what's going on. We definitely are praying for the best. There's definitely a lot going on for sure, but yeah, advocate for yourself. And we actually have an article dropping on Living Corporate soon about strategic self-advocacy, so keep an eye out for that. If you have any additional questions, just reach back out and we'll make sure to chop it up. Offline.Ade: And definitely thank you for writing us and trusting us with this. So that about wraps it up for our listener letter portion of the segment. As a reminder, we do encourage conversation, so please reach out if you have any questions, comments, or concerns for us.[segment break]Ade: All right, y'all. It is another episode of Favorite Things. So I have a confession actually, guys. Please, please, please keep this on the downlow, as I say this on a podcast. I had my first bite of mac and cheese recently. I know. I know.Zach: Your first bite? Like, you've just now--you've just now tried--Ade: I just--like, I literally just tried mac and cheese, and it was--and I feel like the only real reason that I liked it was because it was a seafood mac and cheese because I've always been really, really averse to cheese, but I've only recently started being okay with it. Like, it doesn't automatically make me nauseous. And so, like, I had my--my friend made--there was a kickback, and my friend made seafood mac and cheese, and I was like, "Seafood? I guess I can give it a shot." I don't know what that voice was. [laughs] But I gave it a shot and I ate it, and it was good. Like, it was really, really good, and I was like, "Hold on, wait a minute. Are you telling me that I've been missing out on deliciousness this whole time?" I was like, "No, this is probably a one-off. It's because of the seafood." And then I went to another event with friends, and my friend made just regular old mac and cheese, and I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna give it another shot," and it was astounding.Zach: [laughs] It was astounding?Ade: Astounding. Astounding. Are you kidding me? And so now I am mad that I have wasted all of these years of my life not eating cheese, specifically not eating mac and cheese, especially since I apparently make good mac and cheese, but I've never eaten it because I've always been afraid of what it does to my life afterwards--of what cheese does to my life. And so now I'm just trying to spend all this time, like, making up for lost time.Zach: With cheese.Ade: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Zach: With mac and cheese, to be specific. Okay. First of all, that's very funny. Ade: [laughs]Zach: Because mac and cheese is--first of all, it's just such a common dish from my perspective, right? But at the same time I'm excited for you, and I actually think what we should do is maybe add a fun segment from time to time just called Ade's Cheese, right? Like, where you try, like, a new cheese, right? So, like, maybe next time you try Gouda, and then another time you try feta. Ade: Actually--it's so funny you say that because I bought a smoked Gouda from the Amish [inaudible] market in my apartment, and it's in my fridge right now, okay?Zach: Okay. So okay, great. So look, let's take a note 'cause the next time--the next time we're together we'll bring up your review on Gouda. Ade: Look, listen. I actually already took a slice of it with some pepper jelly, and I want to fight every single one of my friends who did not inform me that cheese was this good.Zach: Right. Now, look, cheese is--cheese is good. Like, it's a seller for a reason.Ade: I want y'all to know that there's no way you love me and left me out of the secret for this long.Zach: Nah, see--actually, I challenge that, right? I challenge that because they could've been holding you back from cheese purely for the health reasons, right? Like, there's no--Ade: Nah, forget all that, because, like, they watch me eat three slices of cake and they actually encourage me. Like, "Here, have my slice of cake." Zach: Okay. Well, then I understand your frustration.Ade: See? Mm-hmm. They're not loyal. Not a single one of 'em. [laughs] My only other thing this week, it's a book called Perfect Peace by Daniel Black. So it's a book about what happens--there are several different themes. Part of it is gender. Part of it is, like, family betrayal. And so, like, the plot is it's this family in the rural south. Mama has six boys already, and she's pregnant with her seventh, and she, the whole time, is thinking, "Oh, this is gonna be my girl." She has a lot of issues surrounding her relationship with her mother, and so she wants to really, like, nurture a girl, a daughter. Turns out that she has a son, and so what she decides to do is raise her son as a daughter, and so she names this boy Perfect. Their family's called Peace. And so Perfect is raised, up until he's 8, as a girl. It's just this really, really gripping story about, like, love and family and what it means to--like, what gender means and what family means and what truth means and all of these other things, and you find yourself just, like, shocked every other page. But yeah, that's my favorite thing, and that was a whole lot, but I hope y'all take a look. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, that's cool. We've got to make sure that we add Perfect Peace to our reading list.Ade: Oh, yeah.Zach: That's right. Make sure you check out our reading list. It's great. So sticking with my record of aggressive book titles, my favorite thing right now has to be this book I'm rereading called This Nonviolent Stuff'll Get You Killed by Charles Cobb. It explores the history of nonviolence during the civil rights era and its function. It also breaks down the history and culture of gun ownership for black people in America. It's a really interesting read. Academic while not being too heavy. It's just a really approachable book, and it's also on our reading list, so make sure you check that out.Ade: And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for this show. My name's Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, Latricia and Zach discuss personal brand with special guest, George Okpamen. Length: 1:11:50Host: Zach, Latricia#OnetimefortheOnetime #edopowa #ignutetamu #elilillyShop GeorgeOkk’s Store: https://skreened.com/georgeokk George's IG: https://www.instagram.com/georgeokkGeorge Okpamen’s TedTalk: #BeIntentional X #OneTimeForTheOneTime Part 1: https://youtu.be/4EOXqPnowlUPart 2: https://youtu.be/LZ-L-zcTJ40Affiliations:Executive VP and Co-Founder, Pharmacy Initiative Leaders (PILs) @pilsconnect www.pilsconnect.com Student National Pharmaceutical Association (SNPhA) @SNPhAEli Lilly Visiting Scientist Fellowship@VSFamAndFriendsGeorge’s Personal Brand Inspirations: Fighting the Fray, Marriage and family blog @fightingthefray https://www.instagram.com/fightingthefrayYoutube: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TKkl29oSBy8&feature=youtu.be Cosmo Creative, marketing and Advertising @cosmocreative https://www.instagram.com/cosmocreativeWww.Cosmocreative.net Edose Ohen, Global Entrepreneurhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/edoseohenCourtney Brand, Social Media Branding Expert @greeneyesgoldsoul https://www.instagram.com/greeneyesgoldsoulTheBWerd.com Tobe Nwigwe, Inspirational Rap Artist @tobenwigwe https://www.instagram.com/tobenwigweLinktree: https://linktr.ee/tobenwigweGary Vaynerchuk, Businessman, Author and SpeakerWww.GaryVaynerchuk.com @garyvee https://www.instagram.com/garyveeEric Thomas, Motivational SpeakerWww.etinspires.com @etthehiphoppreacher https://www.instagram.com/etthehiphoppreacherTRANSCRIPTZach: If I had about three traits that I would like to portray within three seconds of meeting someone, they would be intentional, bold, and authentic. Now, would those be the first three words I use to describe myself when I walk into a room with a corporate executive or would they be the first three words that my colleague used to describe me? I'd like to hope so. Studies show that it takes three seconds for someone to make a lasting and complete impression. As a black man in corporate America, I'm too often faced with the reality that certain assumptions about my capabilities have already been ascribed to me as soon as I walk into a room filled with people who have never worked with someone who looks like me. It becomes a constant game of trying to figure out how I can make an impression on them before they can make any assumptions about me. The question is "How do I win?" This is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.So today we're talking about building your personal brand. It's funny because when I came up and I would hear about branding I often thought about billboards, but as we've continued to grow and learn it's far more than that, right?Latricia: Right, exactly. Believe it or not, people connect with people, right? And people are more likely to be persuaded by a recommendation from an individual with a trusted brand, and this is why it's really important to develop a personal brand that portrays who you are and what you value and what you're known for.Zach: Right. The question I have--is there anyone that you've met who really gave you, like, an immediate impression? Like, a "Whoa, I'm trying to be like this person."Latricia: Yeah, that's a good question. It's crazy because at my job I travel all over the country, and I've worked with amazing people for some of the biggest hospitals that you could think of, and I'm constantly exposed, right? Like, with corporate executives, VPs, C-Suite, but there was one person I met when I was in my office downtown in Dallas. We were in the elevator. I was in the elevator, and so I happened to get off the floor with the only other black person in the elevator, which made sense because as soon as I met him I realized who he actually was.Zach: Who was he?Latricia: He was a new partner at the firm actually, and so I had been hearing about this new partner. And he had kind of a funny name, or, you know, a different name, and so I really wasn't sure if he was black. No one--of course no one's gonna say, "Hey, there's a new black partner." We just know that there's a new partner. And he stopped me, introduced himself. He said, "Hey," you know, "I'm a new partner here at the firm." You know, "How long have you been working here?" Like, okay. "Hey. I've been working here for about a year. I'm new myself." He was like, "All right, great. Well, I'd love to get to know a little bit more about you, so put some time on my calendar so we can talk." And so this happens a lot, right? And, you know, people always talk about having an elevator pitch. I was still kind of new, and I had practiced my elevator pitch, but I didn't really use it in that moment 'cause he kind of took the charge in that conversation. But, you know, you meet people all the time, they tell you to put time on their calendars, and so typically what I do when someone tells me to put time on their calendar is I create an agenda. So we know in corporate America that's how you start a meeting, right? You have an agenda, and you let everybody know this is what we want to get through.Zach: Right. "This is what we're trying to achieve." So the goals, outcomes of this meeting, so and on so forth. Yeah, for sure.Latricia: Exactly, so you can be productive. You don't want to waste anyone's time. So I'm thinking, "Okay, I have, you know, maybe 30 minutes to an hour to leave an impression on him, so what am I gonna talk about?" So I just defaulted to, you know, what I usually do when people reach out to me, so I put together an agenda. So I was gonna start it by, you know, just kind of generally who I am, and when I say who I am I mean I went to the University of Texas at Austin. I majored in this and that. I went to Emory University. I majored in this and that. And I'm here now, and this is what I'm doing. These are the projects that I've been on. These are the people that I've worked with. These are the projects that I'm interested in. So, you know, real formal, right? So I put together the agenda, scheduled the call, and when we get on the phone the first thing I let him know is "Hey, you know, I put together an agenda, and I want to talk about A, B, and C," and his response was "That's great. I hope that we can get to those things, but I stopped you because you were the first black person that I've seen in this office since I've been here. I just want to know what it's like to be black at the firm."Zach: That’s crazy.Latricia: And it’s so wild to me because it had been a year since I’d been at the firm and I had never had those discussions with anyone--because I didn’t have anyone to talk to about any of those things, even on the client side. I didn’t work with any clients that had black people in leadership, and so, you know, I still wasn’t really comfortable. I talked a little bit about our ERGs at the firm--those are Employee Research Groups--and, you know, there’s one for black people, and I try to get involved. I try to do community service in black communities, and, I mean, that’s the extent which I felt comfortable talking about with him ‘cause he--again, he’s a partner. And then he shared his story, and I’m really hoping that we get him on the show because I would love for him to share his story, but when he shared his story he didn’t start with his MBA or his JD from Harvard. He just started with his--he started with his background. He’s a first-gen, similar to me. Caribbean and African, but he’s a first-gen. His mother worked for the United Nations, so growing up in New York he had a very global perspective. So he just shared a little bit more about his story, and it was just--in that moment, that was the first example for me in terms of being authentic to who you are, and that to me is his brand. Like, I’ve been in meetings with him with people who don’t look like us, and he’s the same exact same way. So it wasn’t because he was talking to another black person or another black person who’s also a first-generation child of immigrants. It wasn’t just in that moment that he said, “Okay, I can have these honest conversations about who I am and my experiences being black and being first-generation with someone that’s just like me.” It was just amazing to have those conversations, and now I try my best to do that too when I’m letting people know who I am. I’m like, “Hey, I’m Nigerian. I’m Christian. I’m a woman. These are the things I care about. I do mission trips to Nigeria. I’m gonna take my two weeks off of work every year to do these trips.” So, like, I’m more comfortable, like, letting people inside of, you know, my personal life a little bit. So yeah, like, have you come across anybody that has left that type of example on you?Zach: Yes, ma’am, and I’m not gonna drop his name. My goal is for him to be on the show one day, but I definitely do have an experience. And actually, Sound Man, go ahead and find us some type of generic Shaft music because…Latricia: Oh, gosh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] I’m telling y’all. I’m telling you. Look, man, this dude was slick, man. He was, like, a combination of, like, Black Jesus and Shaft, right? So while I’m talking just lay it in the background real smooth, right? Okay, so this is my story, right? So, you know, in my experience in corporate America, I haven’t--I don’t often run into a lot of other black men, right? And when I do, like, on those every other, other, other, other instances, they’re often pretty timid, right? Like they’re not really out here trying to be seen. They’re trying to just put their head down and stack their coins and get out of here. That wasn’t the case this day, right? So I’m sitting in this little closed room, and I’m the only black man on my team, and my back is to the door, which I often don’t like to do, but anyway, the door was closed so I wasn’t tripping. Some of y’all who know about that stuff know what I mean. You don’t like (necessarily?) having your back to an open door or even a closed door. So anyway, my back was to a closed door, couldn’t do anything about it. So I’m just trying to play my music or whatever, but even over my music I heard the door open. *door opening sound* And I turn around and I’m like, “What is going on?” And the first thing I see, Latricia, is, like, the tip of this cane. A cane, though. And not a cane like a walking--like an old man, like, elderly cane, but, like, a playa cane. Like, it’s a dope cane, and then attached to this cane is this ebony black hand.Latricia: [laughs]Zach: I’m telling you. [laughs] I’m telling you. Hand is super, super, super chocolate. And then, you know, on the ground--’cause there’s a shoe, a very nicely made high quality Oxford monk-strap shoe. Might’ve been oxblood, I can’t remember. Maybe it was black, I can’t recall. But anyway, there was a--then I saw a pinstriped leg, tailored--clearly a tailored suit. Anyway, this man slides through the door. He slides through the door, pinstripe suit. He has a French cuff shirt. It’s a pink French cuff shirt with white--you know what I’m saying, white cuffs, white collar, no tie, right? Very round spectacles. Like, very clean. Everything is--everything is clearly tailored to this man. And he doesn’t have a cane for no reason, right? Like, he has a limp, and it all comes together. It’s so cool. I was like--I’m just taken aback, and I’m looking at this man because his presence in that space was so loud to me, but not loud like cacophonous, right, but loud like just a genuine presence. Like, “No, I’m here, and you can’t avoid it.” Like, he’s--he was here, and that was--that just took me aback. So anyway, we’re going on and on, and then we--you know, I’m just kind of observing him as he introduces himself, and, you know, we all do--he’s coming in to help us with, like, some leadership development work. That’s his background, feature development, executive coaching, change management, transformation, so on and so forth. So we’re all in this room ‘cause he’s here. He’s the speaker for the day on our project to help us kind of recalibrate and kind of get ourselves right and ready for what we’re trying to do with the client. So anyway, we all go to this round-table thing. Everybody standing up, “Oh, I’ve been here for this many years. I’m part of this practice. I’m based out of this city,” right? I get up, I say my thing. I say the same generic thing everybody else. We get to him, right? And so--listen, guys. He zones in. He starts talking like this, and everything he says is like butter. Like, he’s deliberate with every word he says, and he’s talking almost like--not at a whisper, right, but like at a hushed, just more smooth and still at the same time inviting tone. And so everybody--even though it was already quiet, it’s like the room got even quieter, and he’s like, “You know, I’m many things to many people. To some I’m an educator. To others I’m a salesman. To others I’m a husband and a father, but ultimately I’m a leader.” And I was just like, “What is going on?” I’m just looking around like, “Is anybody--” I’m actively looking around like, “Is anyone else witnessing this right here?” Right? And, you know, some people in the room are, like, clearly, like, taken aback. Other people are not really paying attention, but, you know, that’s a whole ‘nother podcast about people just not paying attention at work. So, you know, I’m just taken aback. I’m just listening to this man like, “What is going on?” And so after the whole big meeting, I then pull him aside and I say, “Hey, man. It was an honor to meet you,” and we start talking about the future of the executive suite, and as the country gets browner the C-Suite should also reflect it, not of course by direct ratio, but it will get browner. And so what is leadership development and coaching and all those things look like when it comes to the future? And he had some really amazing insights, you know? He could tell what I was really getting at with the question. So he gives me some dap, right? And it wasn’t like your regular, like, “I’ma just give you a handshake.” He gave me the three-clinch dap. Like, bop, boom, bam, and he says, “Holla at me though.” And I said, “What?” And I said, “What?” I was so taken aback by that, and since then we’ve been cool, and he’s a great person. Like, again, he didn’t walk in talking about this is who I am, da-da-da-da. He came in with just who he was, like, his whole essence. And, like, up to this day I always say he’s like a combination of Black Jesus and Shaft. It’s crazy. Black Jesus and Shaft with a limp and a silver-tipped cane. It’s crazy. And it was just amazing. I mean, that’s my story.Latricia: I love that we’re sharing stories from people of color who have been able to establish their personal brand in corporate America because, I mean, I would posit that it is a lot more difficult as a person of color to establish a personal brand that you can be authentic to.Zach: When you say being a person of color makes it more challenging to establish a brand, could you just expound about that? Like, what do you think makes it more challenging? Like, what do you think our ethnic identity has to do with our brand establishment?Latricia: You know, I would say, based on my experience, the strength of your personal brand is really determined by how people relate to you, and even just their willingness to relate, right? As a person of color, you’re typically faced with the challenge of trying to establish relationships with people who may overlook you because they don’t feel a personal connection to you. Without those personal relationships and people who are willing to promote you and your brand, a personal brand that is authentic to you becomes harder and harder to sustain, and that’s really when things start to get messy. That’s when people start to try to be somebody that they’re not, and how sustainable is that when it comes to just your career progression and also your quality of life and your happiness?Zach: I agree. I would say, you know, when it comes to a personal brand it’s about finding a middle ground, but really the truer statement is finding an honest ground. Like, where can you actually stand that really reflects who you are and what you’re about and that you can consistently promote? And to your point, I mean, it’s beyond just your work product or who you are at work but, like, just who you are in life because work is so much of your life. How do you demonstrate or how do you practice authenticity? And how do you present something authentic that you can consistently lean on, right, and promote for your own progression and your own career development. And, you know, it would be great if we could interview a person of color who could just share their perspective on building their personal brand, especially if they, I don’t know, had, like, an advanced degree with a career path that doesn’t typically follow a corporate route. Who maybe had a lot of public speaking experience, who still has a lot of public speaking experience, who speaks all the time, maybe on a couple TED Talks. Who, as a black man, had to navigate building relationships while also climbing the corporate leadership ladder and is still actively developing and growing his brand right now. I don’t if, like, that’s possible, but it would be great if we had somebody like that.Latricia: Oh, you mean like George Okpamen?Zach: Whaaaaaaat? *imitating Jamaican air horns* Sound Man, go--listen, Sound Man. By this point you know this is where the Jamaican air horns go. Put ‘em in here. Let’s go. [laughing] All right, so next we’re gonna have our interview with George Okpamen. Latricia: Hey, y’all. This is Latricia, and you’re listening to Living Corporate. And today we will be talking about personal branding. I’m really excited to have our guest here today, George Okpamen. He’s from Houston, Texas, currently resides in Indianapolis. He is currently working in the pharmaceutical industry at Eli Lilly. He’s a TED Talk speaker and he’s also an entrepreneur, so we’re really excited to have him on the show today to talk a little bit more about his experience in corporate America and how he’s been able to develop and maintain his personal brand. Thank you, George, for joining us today.[Sound Man throws in cheers]George: Well, I really appreciate that. It looks like I need to have you around me a lot more. That was an amazing introduction, appreciate you.Latricia: Of course. So I guess to kick things off, George, could you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are today?George: Yes, I can, but before I do that I want to make it 1000% clear. I think when people think about personal branding--’cause I know that’s the topic today--they always mind-jump directly to social media or directly jumps to public speaking or things of that nature. Personal branding is one word, and that’s reputation, and so as you listen to the rest of this podcast or any time you hear personal branding, if you could bring that back to reputation--“What is my reputation?”--I think you will appreciate that more. ‘Cause I think there’s gonna be a lot of people that go, “Oh, personal branding? Let me take these social media tips.” That’s not what this is, but to get back to your question of my background, I’m gonna go all the way back to--One, I was born in Dallas, Texas. I’m the oldest of three boys. Parents are from Nigeria. Edo State. Edo Power. Shout out to Black Panther for giving us a shout out in the movie. Having parents that are from Nigeria--my dad came to Nigeria. He went to Georgetown so he named me George, and we’ll get into a little bit more of that story. I think that’s important to understand because growing up in Houston, Texas, as a Nigerian-American, I wasn’t very proud of that growing up. I still remember the first days of school, skipping class on that first day so that I didn’t have to get my name called and hurrying back to the teacher to tell them that, like, “Osuzuwa? Cross that out and just put George.” And so as I fast forward to high school when I went to Stafford High School in Houston, Texas, as I was lucky enough to be a varsity athlete as a freshmen and all the way up until my senior year I got the first opportunity to go to Nigeria. I say opportunity now, but back then I didn’t think it was an opportunity because I didn’t want to go to Nigeria. “I’m a scholarship athlete about to go play football.” And my parents decided to make me go to Nigeria, and so it was at that time, that summer of 20--what, 7? So 2007 that I went to Nigeria and saw my grandparents for the first time, and it changed my life literally because they are the ones who told me who I was. Spending a month with my grandfather, who was a chief, and my grandmother, seeing where my mom was one of twelve, seeing all of her kids and all of that nature really, really imparted George, who he was, and Osuzuwa, which means “God’s gift of wealth.” So before going to Nigeria I was an older brother. I was the same person before going to Nigeria that I was after, but it was one knowing who I was, being self-aware, and two having a different perspective that probably changed my trajectory literally after coming back. So coming back from Nigeria from Stafford, I decided to turn down those scholarships and pursue pharmacy at the University of Houston, and so my undergrad with the University of Houston, and to fast forward that story a little bit, I was at University of Houston where I thought I was gonna go to pharmacy school, and fast forward to year three of my four years at University of Houston when I applied and did not get into pharmacy school at University of Houston ‘cause that’s the only school I applied to. I decided to pledge Alpha, Eta Mu Chapter, at University of Houston, (inaudible) Eta Mu for those that know. And so it was during that time, and not just the fraternity--it was during that time where I saw a collective of African-American males doing big things, and so when you think of big things, especially at the collegiate level, all of our people in the Chapter were either student government president or head of other organizations on top of the fraternity, so it really taught me to not just be excellent in what you do for the fraternity but be excellent outside so that you can help the fraternity, and that learning I took when I applied to pharmacy school the following year again at Texas Southern University right across the street. And so, again, with knowing who I was, from Nigeria, and understanding the power of doing your job or doing your work and what you’re doing day to day and also being excellent outside of your day, I joined both of those together as I started pharmacy school at Texas Southern, and fast forwarding that story became the national vice president of the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, which is the largest minority pharmacy association (inaudible) in the United States, and that allowed me to get an internship at the FDA, allowed me to get a internship at Bristol-Myers Squibb, which is an industry pharmaceutical company in Jersey, and then fast forward that. I got a fellowship at Eli Lilly, which is where I currently work in corporate affairs. Got my first full-time role in oncology payer marketing. I’ve now just got promoted to a consumer marketing role in our diabetes (inaudible).Latricia: All right. Thank you for sharing your story. So storytelling is really important in understanding your background. So as you’ve navigated through corporate America, have you always felt comfortable sharing your story? Or, I guess, how important has it been for you to share where you come from?George: I think it’s been very important, and to get to your question directly, have I always been comfortable? I don’t think I always was comfortable sharing my story ‘cause I think I was just creating my story, and I’m still creating my story, but I think it became very evident to me--to your point, I think--as I even, like, right now play it back in my head, standing on stage running for the national vice president of SNPhA, and so it was at that time the process itself was obviously--I wouldn’t say obviously--was grueling ‘cause you have another gentleman who is just as qualified going against me, and I could’ve lost, but it was when I was on that stage that I realized that, hey, I almost didn’t even get into pharmacy school, and hey, I almost failed out of pharmacy school, and still I was being one of two people being slated to run for the national vice president. And then on top of that part of my story, part of my speech was sharing that and seeing how powerful it was for people after I did win to come and tell me just how powerful my story was one, but two that they saw themselves in my story, and then the third thing was some of my story had, like, failure in it, and they could relate to the failure, and they were proud that I was representing them moving forward. And so as I talk about, again, going all the way back to when I went to Nigeria, or fast forward to when I became an Alpha, all of those things prepared me for the moment, and all of those things go into my personal brand, which is now--I know the word phrase that I use is “One time for the one time,” but I’m not gonna break down one time for the one time right now, just the “Let’s go be.” “Let’s go do.” That’s something that I’m anchoring to. Let’s go be who they say you wouldn’t. Let’s go do what they say you couldn’t. And that comes from a story of failure because people told me when I failed that I probably wouldn’t be able to do something or that I probably wouldn’t be able to be something, and if I go back to that story of the national vice president, I was, and as I come up and fast forward to now being one of the co-founders at a top pharmaceutical company of our Young Professionals program, of the early career professionals, that’s something that, again, started all the way back when I went to Nigeria and met my grandparents for the first time. So now when you pair that with, okay, now all the stuff that I’m sharing on social media, or all the stuff that I’m putting on LinkedIn, or all the stuff when I even speak and give a presentation for a PowerPoint. All of those perspectives, I (have that for the mind?), and that becomes my personal brand because I know who I was. I’m able to, as you say, share my story and share what I really, really feel, think, and do and empower other people and vice versa.Latricia: Yeah, I really like what you said about relatability. I think that’s a big piece, when it’s really important with personal branding for you to be able to make a connection with people, and so telling stories that people can relate to is a way for people to, again, like I said, connect with you. So could you talk a little bit about connections and networking and, I guess, how that ties into your personal brand?George: I love the fact that you said networking ‘cause that’s another buzzword similar to personal branding that I cringe at when I hear sometimes, and so networking to me is not, like, again, something that’s just a thing you do. Networking to me is building relationships and, to your point, building connections, and it’s some of those as I go all the way back to connect--not to beat a dead horse--some of my stories back from going to Nigeria. It was along that journey that I connected and built relationships with people that allowed me to propel me to where I’m at today, and so to me anything that I do, I don’t always look for, like, “Oh, what can I get out of it?” I’m literally looking at “What can I provide to it? What value can I bring to this person, to this relationship?” And of course when you have--when you think that way 100 times, 100 out of 100--you’re not gonna always provide value 100 times. Sometimes someone’s literally gonna just give you something, and so to make this real, as I talk about--and I’ll go to the story I just used as far as being the national vice president, I always knew that being--that was my, what, third year of pharmacy school? I always knew that I wanted to do a rotation at the FDA, but our school, Texas Southern University, didn’t have a relationship with the FDA, and they didn’t have a relationship with Bristol-Myers Squibb, but it was me being a national vice president--and we had a parent organization called the National Pharmaceutical Association. Traditionally they didn’t really have a good relationship because the SNPhA, the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, was just worried about the students, and the National Pharmaceutical Association was just worried about the professionals, and so I took it upon myself to make sure to help build that relationship. It wasn’t until the end of my term though that that quote unquote paid off, and I didn’t do it for any bad reason. I just wanted them to have a good relationship, and it was this one final presentation that I did, and one of the members of the National Pharmaceutical Association came up to me like, “Man, you’ve done a great job this year. That was a great presentation.” Like, “What are your career aspirations?” And I told her about, like, “Hey, I want to work in industry. I want to be able to someday sometime continue to wear suits all the time instead of working retail.” She said, “That’s awesome. Have you heard about the FDA internship?” I was like, “Yeah, I actually applied about a month ago,” and she was like, “Oh, really? What part?” And I told her, and she was like, “Here. Here’s my card.” On that card it said FDA Manager Such-and-Such-and-Such-and-Such. I won’t give her name just to protect it. And she said, “Make sure you email me the application.” Now, to this day she will never say that she did anything about it, but I’m not stupid, and it was not because I, day one, was like, looked her up or day two even went after her to ask her what she did. She saw what I provided one to the organization and saw how I carried myself every single day, and she wanted to provide value to me because I was providing value to the greater organization, and that’s how I believe networking is. It’s about building relationships, building connections, and building value for others and other things bigger than you, and as you do that the universe and others will, I believe, give you your desires.Latricia: Right. Like you said, networking is a huge buzz-term. I know starting in my career, in graduate school, going to different job fairs, and we have our career counselors telling us, “Make sure you network.” I was like, “Okay. I don’t-- What do I do to network? I’m just gonna put together a resume,” or “I’m just gonna make sure I print out some business cards, and I’m gonna hand ‘em to people and tell them I want a job,” and I thought that that was what networking was, but like you’re saying, it’s deeper than that. It’s about relationships. It’s about connections and finding that way to connect with someone. So, you know, being in my career now for almost three years, I get a lot of people that reach out to me and say, “Hey, I want to be where you’re at.” Like, “What do I need to do to get there?” And they talk to me about a lot of the different barriers that they face. Typically they just don’t have the experience, or maybe they went to a certain school and that school doesn’t have relationships with certain firms that they want to go into, ‘cause you know that’s kind of how it works. These firms, they pick the schools that they want to build relationships with, and those have become roadblocks for them. And so could you--I know you shared your story. Could you also share just, like, some tactical advice for people who may be in that situation where they want to get into a certain career but just putting together a resume or a business card isn’t gonna be enough to get them in the door because a structural or institutional relationship with some of these firms hasn’t been established by maybe their school or, you know, the networks that they’re already a part of.George: Those are great questions, and for me, I know I’m a big storyteller, so this one, to your point, I’ma try to get tactical and straight to the point, and so I’ll start at your first part when you talked about the networking piece of it, ‘cause when I say networking I 1000%, with everything I just said, I’m 1000% understanding that there’s gonna be a networking conference where it’s just a room, like, 100 people, resumes and business cards. So, in that situation, what do you do to build a relationship? What do you do to start the conversation or to get a connection when you’re pretty much just dropped into a room? So the first thing you do is try to find some type of, as we talked about, relatability. Something that connects you to another person. I think LinkedIn is a powerful tool. So whatever company that you are--I’ll say Company ABC--if you type in Company--I’m actually looking at a Glad wrapper thing right now in my room as far as the trash can--if you want to work for Glad, go into LinkedIn and type in Glad Manager, right? You’re gonna type in and, like, what, 60 people are gonna pop up, and in order for you to obviously do this hopefully your LinkedIn is already on point or at least you have a picture and you have it--at the basic level. You have where you went to undergrad, where you went to graduate school, and some of your skills. It doesn’t need to be, on a scale of 1 to 10, a 10, but it needs to at least be minimally a 7.5, 8 (in scales of?) how your LinkedIn should look when you’re even about to do what I’m going to tell you. So when you want to work for Glad and you put in Glad Manager, all of these people are gonna pop up. Then you’re gonna have the opportunity to say, hey, send this person a message or connect. Now, everybody and their mom--this is pretty much called cold calling--everybody and their mom is gonna get spam or emails or things of that nature that they do not want to read or see in their box, but the point is they actually look in their box when they’re looking at their LinkedIn. Like, I look at my LinkedIn just as much as I look at my Instagram as far as messaging. There’s messages I don’t open, but you always, always, always see the picture of whoever, whatever message that is, and you always see the subject line. So take it upon yourself to be creative and say, like, “Hey, Jim. Would love to talk real quick.” Like, you literally have, like, a sentence to say something. “Hey, Jeff. Interested in Glad. Love to learn more. Love to have two minutes of your time if you have a minute.” Now, again, when you do this 60 times, you might get 58 out of 59, like, no responses, but all you need is one, and then when you have that opportunity you’re able to talk to Jim from Glad and get information from Jim from Glad that you wouldn’t have got because you never even did it in the first place. Now, when I say the information, be very thoughtful in the questions that you ask and what you want to know, but then from there it’s not about even just getting information. It goes back to what we started with. It’s about building a relationship and a connection of following up with Jim from Glad on whatever you talked about, and you have to have the resiliency to know one you’re gonna get a lot of no’s, two Jim from Glad might not talk to you again for another two, three months, but the next time you talk to them, what is the progress that you’ve made to make yourself a better candidate to be from there? Jim from Glad, who’s a manager, will see this over time, which sometimes a lot of us don’t like to hear, and then next year at this same time you are a well better-qualified candidate to work at Glad than you were before that opportunity. Now, that was one drawn out tactical example, but you do that over time multiple times to different industries, and that’s to me one way--there’s many ways--to get yourself in the door. And so I’ll put a bow on it by saying, again, that was a tactical example. Whenever there’s roadblocks to situations that you have, one it starts in your mindset of knowing, “Hey, I can find a way around this. I can find a way or make a way to get into the situation I want to get to.” So once you have that, two you go and find a creative way to get around that, whether it is going outside of the normal ways of getting that opportunity for you. Like I said, cold calling on LinkedIn or setting up or bumping into Jim from Glad at his specific place that he likes to go grab a drink and sparking up a conversation or just reaching out to other people outside your network, and then the third thing after that is to stay resilient and stay consistent. So you’re gonna hear a lot of no’s from people. Keep on pushing, and then also consistent, that means over time you continue to do the same excellent type of work and communication until you get what it is that you want. And so if you put all those together, hopefully that roadblock will become something that is a setup for you.Latricia: So I want to talk a little bit more about this TED Talk. We’re going to make sure we link it below so that everyone can go and listen to it because it’s really great. I mean, we all know, TED Talk, they don’t just have anyone up there speaking, and it’s a huge platform to be on. Could you talk a little bit about promoting yourself through this TED Talk? So one, first question I guess, how did you promote yourself to even be selected to speak on a TED Talk? ‘Cause I think we can gain some insight from that, and two, what was the aftermath, like, for your TED Talk? I know you posted it on social media, things like that. Like, what were you able to gain? ‘Cause that was you putting your personal brand out there. What did you gain after the TED Talk?George: Yeah. So, again, a big part of me in general, the way I see my perspective on life, is that--and I know this is gonna sound bad, but people--just like I’ve said before, people--when I say the word privilege, and I’m glad that Charlamagne has even put a book out there, and I had been thinking this way before he put the book out there so I did not steal this. When I think of privilege, I think that I’m very privileged. When I say that, again, it sounds bad, but again, if you read the Charlamagne book he does a great job of explaining what I’m about to say. I’m lucky enough or privileged enough to have two parents. Everyone doesn’t have two parents. I’m privileged to have--to be the oldest of three brothers. Everyone is not fortunate enough to be the oldest. And so when I’m able to--like, those are just two simple things that I anchor to when I’m able to say I’m also privileged to work at Eli Lilly, and I’m privileged to come through the Visiting Scientist Fellowship when there’s only 12 pharmacists my year that got selected to be a part of the fellowship process. I took full advantage of that, so much so that my first year, and the blog is still out there, I wrote a blog about the Visiting Scientist Fellowship. I’m the first fellow in the 20-year history of the program to write a blog about it. And so when I’m doing things like this already, people start--like, this was within my first, like, six months of being at the company. People like, “Who the heck is this guy?” And then after that, I followed up by being the first Visiting Scientist fellow to get directly onto a brand team afterwards, ‘cause typically when you’re a Visiting Scientist fellow you’re in the science side of things, or you’re maybe even on the medical side of things, and so I always knew that I wanted to get into marketing, so I was lucky enough--again, someone had to choose me. As great as I was, as bad as I was, as smart as I thought it was, someone still had to say, amongst four people, “George, you are that person.” So again, to me, that is a privilege. So because of that privilege I understand the platform that I have, and so any time that I get into something I want to showcase that. And so this goes back to your question of how did I get selected. I didn’t even know that I was selected until somebody just said, “Hey, there was some behind the scenes stuff going on,” and people kept saying, like, “Who is this George guy? Who is this George guy? We want to know more about him.” And so the topic of TED that year was--and I’m not gonna be specific, but it was something to the effect of being authentic and sharing your origin story, and so people want to know what makes George tick. Like, “He’s doing all these different things, what makes George tick?” And I’m glad you said about the personal brand thing, and similar to what we just talked about with LinkedIn, everything about that TED Talk was intentional, so much so that the name was intentional. The name of my TED Talk was Be Intentional: #OneTimefortheOneTime, and when I say that you don’t see it, but when you see the title when you actually watch the TED Talk, it was done in hashtags on purpose. So you can imagine--I had 20 speakers that day. Every speaker had a normal title with quotations, like, spaces and everything, and then you have this black, young guy, which I was the youngest guy on the stage that day, with hashtags. And so that was intentional too to let people know like, hey, one you can be a young guy two years into the company and be on the TED stage and still show up and be on the same stage with people who have been in the game for--and this TED Talk had people both at our company and outside our company. So be on the stage with people who have been in the game for 20, 30 years. That’s one. Two, you don’t have to do what everybody else is doing. Your title can have hashtags too. Your title--you can, like, bring yourself into whatever it is that you’re doing. And then three, if no one ever even read the TED Talk or heard it or anything at all, by the title itself, just by seeing my title I’m giving you what I want to give you. I want you to be intentional, and I want you to take advantage of the opportunity of a lifetime and a lifetime of opportunity. So that was, like, the thought process that I had as far as putting the TED Talk together, and then from there the TED Talk--as and when you hear it, it’s not even about me. It’s about--yes, it’s my origin story, but it was really a shout out to all the people that have allowed me to be on that stage. And so after that, to your point, I officially started my clothing line Message on Merch, which says messages, just like I did with the title. Positive messages on merchandise, and so with that, my TED Talk (power to the people?) and it allowed me to empower others. By them buying my merchandise, they’re also allowing themselves to empower other people by reading the messages that they’re wearing on their shirts. After that, as you said, company-wise, all this was, like, entrepreneurship, personal branding stuff, but as someone within the company I was seen as a more future leader. I was tapped with having sponsors, not just mentors. Mentors and sponsors are two different things. Mentors are someone that helps you, coaches you, allows you to see what you don’t see as far as what you do on your day to day. A sponsor is someone that sees--I’ll say this at the highest level--sees either you and them and/or they see that you can be someone they can work for, and so they’re gonna do everything they can ‘cause they’re a senior leader, probably a VP or above, to make sure that you succeed. And so I gained sponsors from that TED Talk because they understood my origin story and what I was trying to do, and they’ve been luckily still in my life to this day to ensure that, within my company as a marketer, I’m one of the best marketers I can be, even though I have a pharamacist background and pharmacist trainings. So on multiple levels the TED Talk helped me, but again, all of that started from my understanding of who I was, understanding that I’m privileged, understanding that because of my privilege I have a platform, and because of that platform I have the power to empower other people, not to empower myself, and if I keep that perspective and keep that mentality then I’ll be able to help other people go do what they said that they wouldn’t do and go be what they said feel like they couldn’t be. So yeah.Latricia: You were able to take your personal brand and essentially turn it into an opportunity for yourself, an entrepreneurial opportunity for yourself. So could you speak a little bit about some of your entrepreneurial endeavors? I know you have a trademark for Edo (inaudible). You have One Time for the One Time. Just tell us a little bit about how your brand has turned into, I guess, an opportunity?George: I think for me right now--I know I’m at the, like--if I think about life, I’m right now at the stage right before I’m about to, like, push forward, and it’s funny because I think a lot of people think I’ve probably pushed forward already, but I think right now, from what I see, I’m laying the foundation. So as I build out to just two other things that I’ll talk about briefly--I already mentioned the Message on Merch, the merchandise, which I won’t touch on. I’ll just talk about two other things that empower other people. I’ll talk about the OGO group. I’m lucky enough to have a collection of different friends in different industries, and so when I think of my other frat brother (Cain?), who’s a lawyer, or when I think of another marketer (inaudible) who has no science background and myself, George, who does have a science background, or my brother who’s in architecture, or my other frat brother Cosmo who’s a creator, or Joyce, who quit Lilly--her Lilly corporate job--to sing. In the meantime, in the interim, because she could sing, she started DJing. She was just like, “Hey, you know, I want to start DJing,” and then she starts DJing. Now she’s on tour. Like, these are the people that I’m surrounded with. These are, like, people, like, oh, my gosh. These are great people. So what if we all combined ourselves to help other people and tell our stories? And so that is the origination of the OGO group, and on the surface it is my initials, Osuzuma George Okpamen, but you already know that I’m way smarter than that. OGO, yes, is my initials, but it stands for Opening Great Opportunities, and so I made that an LLC, and that will be the umbrella arm of all of the projects that I do. So one of the pharmacy organizations that I have that’s under that umbrella--it’s a non-profit organization that I’m a co-founder of--is called Pharmacy Initiative Leaders. PILs, and it’s pilsconnect on Instagram, pilsconnect on Twitter, and so in essence that organization is an organization that wants to be the number one resource for all minority pharmacists. We’ll say all pharmacists, but right now we’re focusing on minority pharmacists because we understand that they don’t always have the tools needed to get into the profession, so we want to be that profession that one gets them into the profession, gets them through the profession and allows them to thrive after they graduate and become and get into the professional field itself. We believe--it’s a co-founded group of four people, which we’ll link their names also ‘cause even if I say their names now y’all ain’t gonna know who they are. Bryan, (Onye?), and Josh are my co-founders, and they’re all pharmacists (inaudible). We’re looking to expand our group over the next two to three years to include non-pharmacists too ‘cause that is the beauty of where innovation leads. When we’re able to one empower the pharmacy profession but then also get people who are affected, because people that--the whole United States is affected by healthcare and things of that nature, so how can we add their ideas and inputs into our organization as well? So those are the two big (inaudible) that I’ll be focusing on, and that’s why I want to go to business school, so I can have two years to really focus in and hone in on my foundation, and then, once I come out, super thrive and continue to climb the corporate ladder.Latricia: So I’m going to ask you these questions, and if you could just explain, you know, the difference between a value, a passion, and a superpower as you go through it. So what are your top three values? And, you know, why would you say those are your values?George: I think--so I’m trying to remember--so values, passions, superpowers. Values are something to me--as I’m just thinking about it and internalizing it--as something that really shouldn’t change. It’s internal. Like, it’s your foundation. And there’s different words to say this as well, like for an actual brand of a product, like mission and all of that other stuff, but values, what do you value? What are your core values? And so--and I’m not gonna take the easy way out and say, “Obviously family. God.” Like, those are immovable. So these are, like, the commonsensical ones that I know. Yes, I’m a Christian. Yes, I value my family. Yes, I value God. I think my values--to me, I kind of alluded to them already, so I’m glad that we’re doing this so that we can put it in print. And yes, I would appreciate us redoing this, and you could even put mine. You can put the George Ok whatever on there, but it’ll be dope to your point to help market this and get this out. So my three are privilege, platform, power. I think those are my solid-rock foundations as far as understanding my perspective of me coming from where I came from to where I’m at now to hopefully where I’m going, understanding that with that I have a platform that other people are watching, and because of the privilege I have and the platform that I’m standing on, I have the power to empower other people. And most people, when they hear power and when they hear privilege they think of the negative. No, I’m privileged to be around that, and because of that that platform gives me the visibility to have other people see what I’m doing and where I’m going, and that gives me a responsibility of power to empower other people, not for myself but for others based on that. And so those are my three. Privilege, platform, power. Latricia: Okay, so the next one would be your top three passions.George: Top three passions? And so I’m explaining ‘cause in marketing we have the three customer groups, the C3 approach, and so--this is probably cheating for me ‘cause I’ve thought about this ever since I declared my major as a marketer now. Mines are three C’s. My passions are to create, to curate, and to collaborate. And so when you talk of passions, these are some things you want to do, (inaudible) free. Like, you want to--like, you don’t need to get paid to do these things. Like, you’re so passionate, you’re so fired up, like, you can hear the voice when someone is telling you these things or allows you to do these things. It just--you just feel the fire. Now, do you have to be good at ‘em? You don’t have to necessarily be good at ‘em, but you’re passionate about it or you’re passionate about this cause or this thing. Like, that’s what to me passions are, and so when I think about creating, I love to create, and creating can be anything. It can be creating actual products, it can be creating policies, it can be creating connections, but I love to create. Curating. Curating is really the bringing together, the harnessing of what is already created. And so when you think of--my easiest metaphor for this is a DJ. Like, there are DJs, yes, that make music, and there are DJs that do great stuff like DJ Khaled, but when you think of, like, the fundamental DJ, they’re pretty much--the dope DJs that you know are pretty much curating and mixing different beats and things that’s already been made, so when you hear a Drake beat backdoored with a Kendrick Lamar beat backdoored with a Kanye beat, like, all put together in one, like, that is dope. That is curating, and so that’s the stuff that I like to do. As you think of my group the OGO group, curating different professionals and experiences to bring a better innovative concept on the backend of it. So that’s something I love to do. And then lastly collaborating, and so as you think of collaborating, you’re--it’s almost like two different things are collaborating to make something. So the difference to me between curating and collaborating is curating is bringing together something that’s already made, collaborating is bringing two different ideas to make something new. And so as I think of collaborating with different people just for a little bit or collaborating different ideas or different organizations, those are the things that I’m passionate about doing. So create, curate, collaborate are my three passions.Latricia: And then what are George’s top three superpowers?George: So this one I probably haven’t thought about as much, but if I had to sit and think about my superpowers, like, the thing that always probably jumps out to me, and when I say to me I say to me from other people, is my ability to connect with people, and so that’s whether it’s literally connecting with them, like, as person to person, like my quote unquote networking skills, or when I speak to people, like, literally connecting my story or whatever I’m talking about. It don’t even have to be a story. Connecting a math problem. If I’m gonna do a math problem on the board, I’m not just gonna do a math problem on the board. There’s gonna be a whole story to why I’m even picking the numbers I picked, and I would’ve been intentional on whatever problem that is. And so even just my insight to do that, like, I’m always--like, I never just do anything to do something. Like, I try to connect it to something, and/or because I have such a diverse background if you think about it. A football player who took AP classes who went to the University of Houston who became Greek who went to pharmacy school who became a national officer of the number one minority pharmacy organization who went to the FDA who went to an industry on the East Coast who’s now working in the Midwest? That’s just a lot of diversity there, and so my ability to connect dots--because most of the time people stay in one lane. I’m able to be in so many lanes that I can connect the dots of other lanes because--these people aren’t talking ‘cause they never would’ve thought that they had a connection. Well, y’all do. Y’all really have more alike than y’all don’t, and so my ability to do that is one. The second one would probably be my self-awareness ‘cause I’m very self-aware, and that’s not by accident. I think at SNPhA we were so lucky to where we had a lot of these--every company does it different, but, like, these (inaudible) finder type things, and I did this at a very young age, and I did so many different ones like Myers-Briggs, Strengthsfinder, all these different things to where I continuously found out more and more about myself, and that allowed me to self-reflect and understand when I am or am not doing certain types of things. So I had a really good understanding of myself probably at a very young age in my professional career. So connecting, my self-awareness, and just--the last one I’d say is vision. And so--when I used to say vision back in the day it used to be as a running back. The running back Emmett Smith was my idol growing up. Emmett Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, and all three of those running backs always had vision. But when I talk about it now, it’s more of my vision for the future. If you hear this podcast, you hear about how I’m talking about my family 120 years from now ‘cause I’m literally thinking of that. And so what do I need to do now to make that happen? Or when I scale it back and talk about my marketing plan that we’re launching next year, how do I have thought processes on strategies for next year? But I need to be working on that stuff now for that to happen, and so as I think of my ability to connect, my self-awareness, and my vision, those are things I feel like I do better than a lot of other people, and I think that’s what a superpower is. What do you do better than anybody else? And when you find that out, whatever it is, you triple down on that. There is this theory about, like, do you work on your weaknesses or do you work on what you’re really, really good at? I definitely believe, because of the self-awareness, you’re aware of your weaknesses, and you do do some things to kind of make sure that they’re not something that will derail you and could kill you, but a gift is a gift, and so when you’re gifted, you triple down on those gifts so that you can become LeBron James. You want to be better than anybody else so there is no doubt at whatever that gift superpower is. You do that better than anybody else, ‘cause that’s what’s gonna set you apart, not working on your weaknesses to be just as good as someone. And again, that does not mean to not be aware of your weaknesses, but you want to make sure you do just enough to make sure it doesn’t kill you, but you triple down on your gifts and your superpowers. That’s all. Yep.Latricia: All really good stuff, so we’ll make sure we post your workshop on our Living Corporate page for everyone to see. I really like that. That’s a great way to really break these three different concepts down, so thanks for doing that. So I guess kind of closing off, could you maybe just give some overall advice for someone working on building their personal brand and trying to find a way to make their personal brand work for them?George: I’m really glad we did this podcast. I think, just being real, if you were to just listen to this, ‘cause I’m playing it back in my head, there’s just so many rich content gems, things of that nature, and even from you, Tricia, like, just you being able to ask the certain questions that you’ve asked, I think you’ve done a really, really great job of laying this out and preparing for this opportunity. So I would just really--one not listen to this one time, listen to this a couple of times ‘cause you’ll find what you need, but if you’re fast forwarding and you just want to be able to just take notes, like, really, really quickly, I’d say--and I’m not gonna break this down probably as good as I should if I would’ve thought about it, but just off the dome--the very first thing of personal branding is understanding that it is truly your reputation. So I don’t think that anybody would be happy with having a bad reputation, so understanding mentally that you want to build a--not just a good reputation, a great reputation so that any and everybody that says your name when you’re not there, only great things come out of it. That’s number one. Number two, being self-aware of yourself to understand what are your gifts and superpowers and what are your weaknesses? What are you passionate about? What do you value? What do you want to spend your time on? What does your life look like in in 10, 20 years? What of the people around you? You won’t know that if you don’t spend intentional focused time understanding who you are, what you want, and where you want to be because only then can you actually change that reputation or evolve it or get it better, yeah. The third thing--just to be simple I’ll keep it at three--is to be--and this is a cheat ‘cause it’s two words, but whatever, it’s part of my Message on Merch--to be persistent and consistent. Persistent in resiliency to understand that you’re gonna hear a lot of no’s, a lot of negatives, a lot of, like, things that come your way (inaudible), but push through them and be persistent, but with your brand as well be consistent. No matter if someone’s treating you great or treating you bad, you want to have a consistent reputation that goes over time.Latricia: Just to close out, do you have any shout outs that you’d like to share?George: Yes. We’ll plug these in the bottom, but I would be remiss if I didn’t--I know I shouted ‘em out, but I want to shout ‘em out from a branding perspective--Fighting the Fray, which is my brother’s and my sister-in-law’s--which I really rarely ever call her sister-in-law, but just for everyone who doesn’t know (inaudible) my brother and my sister--my brother and my sister-in-law, his wife Paige, they have a lifestyle blog for young married couples. I also want to shout out to my frat brother (Link?) Cosmo. He was and has been behind me, by my side, since we became brothers, and he always has my back so I always have his. Cosmo is a beast. One of the best graphic designers. He designed my logo. He’s also Edo. Also a big shout out to my big homie (inaudible), who’s doing a lot globally for Nigerians, for Edos, and for business in general. And so just to keep it simple we’ll keep it those three, but also just to give you three people that another--from a personal branding standpoint, things to look at. Courtney Brand does an amazing job of not just lifestyle blogging, financial blogging, also marketing in her own right, she’s one of my (inaudible). Courtney, she’s amazing. So for ladies and guys, she does an amazing job of helping to build brands. So Courtney Brand, we’re gonna tag her in there. Tobe Nwigwe. He’s gonna be the next biggest--if he’s already not the biggest superstar in the states. He’s from (inaudible) Texas, as he would say, but he does an amazing job of marketing, branding, and he’s obviously gifted and talented with words, but again, he doesn’t just use his words as it. He’s helping to empower the youth and (inaudible) his words as well. So Courtney, Tobe, and then just two people that are superstars. Gary V, Gary Vaynerchuk, and Eric Thomas, who actually Tobe is an artist of. Those are people who also are great personal branders, financial people, real estate, things of that nature, and yeah. With those people (inaudible) in the links, I think you’ll get a great flavor and a really diverse background and perspective of how to market yourself, brand, be and have a great reputation on multiple (inaudible), but each one of the people I’ve named are also really great people.Latricia: Thank you for sharing that, George. We’ll make sure we link everyone’s social media pages down below. I’ve personally--maybe I follow everyone that you just listed and I don’t even know them personally, but because they had such strong brands I found all of them really interesting. So yeah, I’ll definitely make sure we share that in the description box in the blog. Thank you so much, George, for coming on here and just being open and honest and giving us really tactical advice. I think a lot of people can take so much from this. Personal branding, it may seem like a soft topic, but it is so important when it comes to growing in your career. It’s not enough to just have, you know, experience on your resume or to have good grades in school or to just get the job. You want to be able to grow in your career, so really developing that brand that people can connect to is gonna take you really far. So thank you so much, George. We really appreciate you for taking the time out to talk to us today.George: Thank you, and thank you to the creators of this podcast. Again, I’m privileged to be on it. Great job creating this, and I love the content that you guys are doing on all the multiple levels and platforms, so I’m looking forward to staying engaged and connected, and I’m proud of you.Latricia: Thank you.Zach: So, Latricia, that was a great interview. What were some of your key takeaways from y’all’s conversation?Latricia: Yeah, that really was a great discussion. I learned a lot, but the major takeaway from me would be the importance of building an authentic personal brand story, key word being authentic.Zach: For me, the biggest takeaway was the self-promotion and the importance of turning your story into a well-recognized brand. So it’s so easy when you talk about yourself it just almost sounds like just a hodgepodge of facts and figures as opposed to weaving it into some type of coherent narrative, and the interview with you and George, it resonated for me in that regard because I can really clearly hear and understand the story that he was presenting.Latricia: Right, that’s so important. Like, we really need to make sure that we’re promoting ourselves, right? It’s one thing to have your story, but how are you making

In this episode, Zach and Latricia discuss effective salary negotiation strategies with experienced Walker Elliot senior recruiter Kyle Mosley. Length: 00:39:55Hosts: Latricia | ZachTRANSCRIPTLatricia: Federal Reserve research shows that Black workers earn less than their white counterparts in a worsening trend that holds even after accounting for differences in age, education, job type and geography.In 1979, the average black man in America earned 80 percent as much per hour as the average white man. By 2016, that shortfall had worsened to 70 percent, according to research from the San Francisco Federal Reserve, which found the divide had also widened for black women.The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (that's 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056. The excerpts I read from Bloomberg and NBC respectively speak to historical inequity that people of color face when it comes to equal pay in the workplace. Considering the nation’s history, this itself should not be a surprise, however the question is what if anything can we do as non-white men do to tip the scales in our favor? This is Latricia. And you’re listening to Living Corporate.Latricia: So, today we’re talking about effective salary negotiation and career management strategies.Zach This is a great topic and I’m glad we’re discussing it. The data you shared at the top of the show was… I’ma be honest, it was like really depressing - BUT it points to the reality of where we are and we can’t move forward without being honest about where we’re starting.Latricia: Right. It is frustrating to see the data and it’s reminder that racial inequity goes beyond the typical talking points that aren’t often explored and understood.Zach: Right. Latricia: I mean, let me read this again-“The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (which is 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056.”Zach: That. is. Crazy. And I know this show is about salary negotiation and career management, but that particular point from those articles reminds me of conversations you and I have had around how so many companies promote Diversity & Inclusion but don’t actually discuss anything beyond gender representation.Latricia: Right we just talked about that - so this is a great example of how that binary view is so problematic. From looking at the analysis from the Institute for Women’s Policy Research and again be reminded that all women aren’t treated equally, having that intersection of race and gender matters if we’re going to have completely authentic conversation around these issues.Zach: Man, I completely agree. So with that in mind, let’s talk about salary negotiation. I think this is a great topic because I’ll speak for my own experiences and what I’ve observed, I feel as if people of color don’t really advocate or encourage the idea of just negotiating. I’ll hear more stuff like “you just need to get in the door and work your way up, you don’t want them to look at you sideways or think that you’re all about the money or whatever, whatever, whatever”. I hear a lot of those talking points from other people of color.Latricia: Right, right. And I’ve heard the same thing. A little bit about me, my background is in public health and I’m in this facebook group with other women in public health, I won’t say the group specifically, but I’ve seen how black women with master’s degrees are working jobs out of their masters for almost minimum wage. And I can’t believe it. And even just the idea of a six figure salary is something that they don’t dream of until they’re at the top of their career, maybe close to retirement, we’re talking like 50. That’s when they’re thinking they’ll be able to get to that six figures. And then I’m sharing stories about kids I know coming out of undergrad within 3 years at some of these firms, and they’re making six figures in 3 years and you’re talking six figures 20 years into your career. And I’m really passionate about this episode and it’s important for us to talk about it. Like I said, in public health, for some reason people are too ashamed to talk about the money because we’re more focused on social justice and healthcare for all and I totally understand that viewpoint, but we can accomplish social justice and still secure the bag. So, I really think that this is going to be an important show.Zach: Right, and I guess I’m a little taken aback to be honest, because you’re talking about these women. And like I said, you and I have had this conversation in private, but you saying it again is just mind-boggling. You’re talking about women who have advanced degrees taking, like, pennies on the dollar. And that’s nuts to me. And it honestly makes me sad but I’m not surprised, like where do you think that comes from? The idea of not negotiating or not negotiating enough? And let me be clear guys, this is not just an issue for black women. The main people I’ve gotten this whole “chill, take it slow, get in the door and grind” talk are actually from male people of color. But where do you think that comes from, Latricia? What are your thoughts there?Latricia: It’s definitely not exclusive to women of color. These realities still create practical, micro level challenges for all of us day-to-day. And like we said from the start, the issues we’re pushing up against are systemic and institutional and we get that… but, I don’t think that means we just say “whelp, racism, woe is me” and don’t at least figure out ways to fight and be more strategic in how we push for that bag you know? Zach: I definitely do. That’s funny “whelp, racism” that should be a meme. “Nothing we can really do.” It’s not funny but it’s kinda funny at the same time. Anyway--Latricia: That’s gonna be the hashtag for the show, by the way.Zach: Anyway, to your point, I definitely do. And like you said, just talking about some of the larger data points, who’s to say that we’re not able to do some things and mobilize at an individual level that could impact the whole thing? There might be things that we can do, just as Latricia, as Zach, as the person listening to this podcast that could actually make a dent in some of these trends. Latricia: Absolutely. And really, it’d be great to have another, more seasoned perspective. Like someone with over 25 years of experience in career coaching, or corporate recruiting, salary negotiations, and strategic relationship building. Not to say this discussion hasn’t been great, but just to have that extra perspective, you know?Zach: Hmm… you mean like our guest for today’s show, Kyle Mosley?Latricia, Zach: Whaaaaa-?[air horns]Latricia: Alright, so next, we’re going to go into an interview with our guest, Kyle Mosely.Zach: So we have Kyle Mosley on the show - Kyle, welcome!Kyle: Hey, thank you for having me, Zach.Zach: Not a problem, we’re really excited to have you here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind just sharing your story?Kyle: Oh definitely. Well, Zach, I’ve been a recruiter for about 25 years here in Houston, Texas. I started off in 1992, so really I’m going into my 26th year pretty soon. So I started as an engineering recruiter, as well as I delved into some executive recruiting. I owned my own recruiting firm for 8 years before getting back into connecting with an old buddy of mine in the recruiting network and I’m still recruiting until this day. It has been a very lucrative field, my wife is a recruiter as well. And it’s a great opportunity for me to be able to share and help other people.Zach: That’s awesome, and congratulations on coming up on 26 years, that’s amazing.Kyle: Yeah long time. Long, long time, man.Zach: So as you know today we're talking about effective salary negotiation. Can you explain from your point of view why salary negotiation matters?Kyle: That’s a good question. Salary negotiations are much like a relationship negotiation. It sets the tone for what relationship you will or will not have with the prospective employer, okay? So ideally everybody wants to have a win-win situation when it comes to salary negotiations. But, we know eventually one side will either concede or compromise or the other side will not. And somebody either will walk away or, if there is the compromise, there still may be some expectations there from one party that didn’t quite get what they want. So when you go into a salary negotiation, you must know that before you finalize the negotiation as well as come to terms with the other party, what are you prepared to be able live with? I think right now, Zach, in this day and age, it’s no different from when I started recruiting, to be honest with you. It’s that everybody expects to get something out of the deal, right? So if you go into the salary negotiation expecting your top ten list to be fulfilled by the employer? I think you’re delusional.Zach: [Laughs]Kyle: [Laughs] And the reason why I’m saying this is let’s be honest, and I always back to the relationship principle - when you and your wife first started dating, there was some give and take. And it’s the same with your employer, or prospective employer. There will be a give and take. Now, your employer may concede certain aspects of the job function or the salary that you’re going to get, but there are going to be some high expectations the higher that salary goes.Zach: Okay.Kyle: And are you willing and ready to be prepared to accept that responsibility, you see? So if you cannot accept that responsibility and take the ownership of what’s going to happen once you become gainfully employed with that prospective employer, you are going to really have a difficult track with that organization.Zach: So to your point though about, I guess, being more practical regarding companies’ expectations the higher the number goes, do you have any examples or stories of how that plays out?Kyle: Over 25 years I’ve been a part of hundreds of salary negotiations, right? The issue comes into play and it always comes back to “who’s going to be bitter about this situation or not?” [Laughs]Zach: [Laughs] ‘Kay.Kyle: and who’s going to have the higher expectation there. So let’s kind of do a reverse engineering type deal - Let’s start from - you’re on board with the employer, but that employer is going to be expecting certain things from you. So before you go into any salary negotiation, you’ve got to be able to do your homework, number one. And also, number two, you have to know your value. If you don’t know your value and you don’t know anything about the employer or where you’re going to work, you’re really going to put yourself at a disadvantage in this whole negotiation scenario. Now when I talk about knowing your value, is the fact that a lot of people believe that ‘okay. I came out of school, went for 4 years, got my bachelor’s’ and let’s say ‘I went to get a master’s degree or MBA or some sort of advanced college degree, right?Zach: Right.Kyle: So therefore when I go onto these career sites like glassdoor or salary.com or monster or careerbuilder, these guys are telling me I’m worth 80k dollars to start off with. And the employer wants to know ‘yeah, you have great credentials when it comes to your educational credentials, but what about when it comes to your real work experience credentials?’ Ok, and the value comes into - if I offer Zach an opportunity to come onto my company XYZ Executive Firm, right? I need to know that Zach from Day 1 is going to enhance my company. Versus Zach is going to be a person extracting from my company.Zach: okay, yeah.Kyle: So then, that’s when I’m saying if you know your value from day 1, you’ve got to be able to articulate this to your prospective employer. That’s a part of the negotiation cycle. Alright so, I have an entry-level kid coming out of one of these big name Texas schools, and he’s an engineer, and he has his PhD in engineering. So then I have a 5 year engineer who has worked in the oil and gas industry, he only has a bachelor’s degree and they’re vying for the same opportunity. So the firm is telling us ‘ Ilike the fact that this guy went to my alma mater. However, I need a guy that from Day 1 can hit the ground running.’ So who does he offer the job to? The one who has the practical, real-world experience. I’m not trying to alarm people who have done well in their educational pursuits, but you cannot say that I’m gonna walk in day 1 expecting x amount of salary if I don’t have practical experience. That’s when knowing your worth comes into play.Zach: ‘KayKyle: What are you willing to concede in order to get a start in the real world? That 1 if you’re entry-level. 2, let’s say you are the 5-year person or 10-year person or 20-year person - You have some achievements that you’ve done in previous jobs, but if you don’t have that information, if you’re just going off of your emotions-- see, you have to take the emotion out of the equation. You have to also articulate what you believe you’re worth.Zach: Okay. So when we’re sitting down and we’re having conversations with the employer, and you’re answering questions and things of that nature, how do you articulate your value?Kyle: Okay that’s where you do your homework. And a lot of doing your homework is what type of questions are you asking in the interview yourself. A lot of people go into an interview believing that they’re sitting down and the employer is going to ask them all of the questions and they’re going to answer questions and that’s it. No, you have to be prepared to be able to ask certain types of questions to the employer like How long has this job been open? How long have you been looking for the right person? What expectations do you have of that person when they walk in the door? 90 days, 120 days, 180 days, a year, whatever. What are those time tables? What are those things that we can quantify that you’re going to expect me to come in with through the door. If you’re a sales person, they’re going to want to see X amount of revenue that you bring into the organization, right?Zach: RightKyle: if you are an engineer or technical professional, they want to see how many projects you work on and complete in X amount of time. If you are an operations professional, how many projects have you brought to the table and how many projects have you been able to find the right people to work on those projects and be able to complete in this particular time frame as well. So those are the types of things that you have to be able to flesh out in the interview process. If you’re not able to flesh values from the employer, how can you negotiate effectively? Because a lot of people believe ‘It should be on my resume, and you should be able to give me what I’m worth’. So what is that? How does that look? How, as an employer, would I be able to know that Mr. Nunn is worth 60 or 80,000 dollars? 80 or 100,000 dollars to my organization? Because what’s going to be my return on my investment in Mr. Nunn?Zach: For those who don’t know, Kyle Mosley is a black man. And Kyle, I’m curious, as a black professional, I’m curious, have you seen any differences when you look at how white and non-white candidates pursue job opportunities?’Kyle: First of all, audience, let me just say this - I’m a Morehouse man. So when I came out of college, I believed I could conquer the world. I’ll be honest with you though, back in 1989, that’s when I graduated, and I believed I could walk into any room, boardroom and get an offer. That’s how i felt. As a matter of fact, when I first got to Houston, I interviewed at 5 companies in one day and got 4 offers. I had confidence, right? So the confidence I had was I did not go into the interviews with fear. When an African-American engineer, not all- this is what I have noticed.Zach: Okay.Kyle: When an AA engineer goes into an interview, they usually are not as well prepared on the company, who’s the interviewer, who’s going to be a part of the interviewing process, understanding what makes the people tick. If you ever have dealt with a recruiter or have a relationship, a recruiter can possibly give you some inside information on the company, what’s happening with the position, how long these people have been looking, if it’s a high turnover type of situation, or if it’s going to be a tough interview, and how you need to present yourself. We do the whole gamut of setting the person up for as much success during the interview versus if you’re winging it by yourself. And you can always use me, I’m just putting it out there, as someone - you’ve probably heard my voice and said ‘alright I need some help, I’m going into this, I don’t have a recruiter’ - call me. I’m open to help people out. What I would suggest is not only building a network with recruiters or with other talent professionals, being able to study who you’re going to speak with and the market. Also go on LinkedIn. Man, LinkedIn is a fabulous tool. I’m just going to use fictional ABC company.Zach: Sure.Kyle: So, sometimes Human Resources is going to say ‘Ok Sally, you have an interview at 8am tomorrow, be here, be early so you can be prepared to fill out paperwork...’ And you hang up the phone. ‘Wow, I got an interview!’ and you’re excited. Zach, who will you meet? Who will be a part of this process?Zach: Yeah.Kyle: Now I’ve seen other engineers say ‘ok that’s great, but when I walk in the door, who do I need to be expecting my arrival? And how long will I be with this person? Who else is going to be a part of this process?’ They ask more questions.Zach: Right.Kyle: They want to be educated. They want to go to the person’s linkind profile, look at let’s say, where the person went to school, how long they’ve been at the company themselves, what type of hobbies they may have, sometimes people have their hobbies on there. Let’s say it’s photography or hunting or whatever it is.Zach: Right.Kyle: Those are things that you could bring up in the interview, okay? Try to find some common ground with the person outside of just being about the interview or things of that nature, right?Zach: Right. Kyle: So those are things that help you build a successful way to get in the door, interview successfully with that person, and ask the right questions- typically I don’t want people to speak about money on the first interview.Zach: Okay.Kyle: You typically do not want to be the one to come out with the money first because you don’t want to look like it’s only about money to you. Most of the time, they’re going to ask you. So if they ask you, yes address it. And address it confidently. Now, you can also say this- let’s say I’m Mr. Interviewer. ‘Well, Zach, how much money do you want for this particular job?”Zach: Right. [laughs]Kyle: ‘How much are you expecting from us here?’‘Well, Mr. Employer that’s a great question. Can I answer this at the end of the interview so I can be able to get an assessment for what you guys are looking for, to make sure that I’m able to answer that correctly and address it properly.’Zach: Right. So I hear what you’re saying, but at the end of the interview, what would you suggest saying?Kyle: Well, you can give them the number you feel that would make you happy. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Kyle: but you say it in such a way - ‘well, based upon what you guys are looking for, Joe, you’ve been looking for 5 months, you’ve been trying to find the right person who can execute this type of project. I have been able to execute this type of project in several occasions, I explained that in the interview. You’ve been looking for someone to come in and work well with the team, with different teams... so based upon what you’re looking for and my background and feeling like I can make a contribution immediately, I want 100,000 dollars.Zach: Straight like that.Kyle: If you already know that this is what the salary range is bearing, right? Zach: Right. Kyle: You need to have a good feeling, and you can ask that question with HR on the phone , say ‘Hey you know I’m just kind of curious. For this type of role, thank you for this interview first, but what’s the salary range for this?’Zach: you know, I think- Of course we live in a capitalistic society, right? Like you have to have money to survive. So I’m really trying, and I appreciate you clarifying, asking directly about the money piece because I’ve also been in situations where people reach out to me and they’ll be really excited and you know, their salary range is like 15-20% under what I’m making right now. And everybody wants to always make more. You know like ‘how much do you want to make?’ ‘I want to make more than I’m making right now whatchyou mean?’ So I think it’s really important if there’s a way that you can kinda get in front of that and in a way, to your point though, that isn’t so money hungry or just makes it seem as though all you care about is money but at the same time, being transparent about where are we with this thing financially.Kyle: Can I just adress one thing, Zach?Zach: You sure can, yes please.Kyle: Okay, notice when the person asked the question, I didn’t just immediately answer the question, but I asked another question. So there are a couple of techniques you can use. Person asks a question? You can answer the question with a question. Answering a question with a question - Kids are great at that, you know? They do the same thing. My son is about to be 13 next week and now he’s into - he’s not just going to give me a straight answer. And What I learned early on in my career in recruiting is that the person who answers the question first usually loses. Okay, so what do I mean by that? I’m glad you asked, Zach.Zach: [ laughs]Kyle: So what I mean by it is the fact that if a person says ‘we’re prepared to offer you 80,000 dollars.’. Now you can answer it ‘great! I accept! I’m ready to go to work!’ Because you must know in the back of your mind thats where you are and what you’re willing to accept. But if you want to negotiate, you may say ‘ hmm.......’ Notice that long, uncomfortable pause.Zach: Yes, I did.Kyle: right, it’s an uncomfortable pause so sometimes the HR professional who may be extending the offer verbally or the hiring manager may extend it verbally, sometimes they just send an email these days which is a horrible, horrible way of presenting an offer to a prospective employee. Yes I said that, Mr. and Mrs. Employer. You guys need to stop that.Zach: [laughs] Amen.Kyle: So you’ve got to be willing to answer the question, follow up and say ‘look, this seems like a great offer, let me study it, let me be able to review it. I may have some questions, will I be able to call you back? What time is good for me to do so? Let’s make an appointment, can we talk at 3 oclock on Monday to be able to go over the offer in detail, so I can be able to make sure I’m on the same page with you.Zach: Okay.Kyle: So you’re going to have them doing what? In the next day or two or the next hours that are coming - ‘did I really extend it the best offer I could’. Now I always ask my employers whenever they extend an offer to any of my candidate, I’ve been taught to ask this from day 1 - is this the best offer you can extend?Zach: I like that.Kyle: Why? Because I’ve got to be honest guys, 80-90% of the time, that’s not the best offer they can extend. Now, is that the best offer they’re going to extend to you? Maybe. But the bottom line is there are other variables. So you want them to be able to explain why they were eager to prepare this offer for you. And listen, don’t get emotional. Don’t get mad and feel you’re being lowballed. Or you’re being underappreciated or feeling discriminated against. You can’t do that. You have to listen first. Listen to what they have to say, say ‘Okay, I’m taking all of this into consideration. Can I get back to you’ Now here’s the fear part. And this is where many of my minority friends come into the fear part. ‘They’re going to rescind the offer. Because I asked to be able to think about it’.Zach: Right.Kyle: No. It’s how you prepare to ask about. If you have an attitude? Yeah, most likely they’re going to rescind the offer. But if you’re trying to make a well educated decision and let them know ‘I’m trying to make the best decision for me and my family’ or ‘for me and my professional career’. Even if you are fearful they’re going to rescind the offer, say something like this- ‘well, I need to see the benefits, can I speak with the human resources professional and go over the benefits first?’Zach: Oh that’s awesome, yeah.Kyle: Then they’re thinking ‘well yeah, it’s just the benefits, yeah sure. Sure sally why don’t you do that, I’ll set you up with Joe Best and you guys can go over that’ you know? How well you frame it is going to make sure you have your house being supported - your career is your house - what type of foundation you lay, what type of framework you put into your home, will it support the weight of everything else that’s going on? And I’m only saying this because I want the audience to be more in a power type of position versus being passive when it comes to this. Once you start your career, guys, you have to be able to say ‘This is what my goals are going to be’.. And every year you have to redefine your goals, you have to please please redefine your goals. Make sure you check on your goals, make sure you’re on point. You also need to have an outside coach or someone to help monitor you with your accountability as well.Alright, what I would say is this, to any professional, it doesn’t matter how young or old you are- make sure you learn as much as you can to platform yourself to your new situation. Build your career, have a solid foundation so that when people, they look at your track record, they see a progression. That’s it right there, a progression. OKay? Because I had a client of mine come to us and say ‘look, I don’t want to see anyone who’s unemployed’. It’s like ‘ok, this is oil and gas country, there may have been some people out of work’. And the guy says ‘yeah I understand that, but for this role, because this person will most likely become a manager within the next year or two and I need to train this person because I’m going to become the VP of the company, I need to see somebody with a career track record that they progressed from one job to the next. So the person wasn’t just engineer day 1, then he went to another company to be the same type of engineer. You know, I want to see the person go to the next step, supervisor, next step department manager, next step this that and the other, right? If the person’s going to be Analyst 1, don’t go to another job where you’re just going to be Analyst 1. If you can bear not to do so, just for the same type of functions, but more money.Zach: Kyle this is great. And I actually think that’s a good place to end it. You know I really appreciate your time, Thank you. Before we let you go - do you have any shoutouts?Kyle: First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has been in my career my 25+ years. Thank you very much for helping me to be highly successful. My wife, of course, and my family, and thank you for this opportunity as well. But most of all, audience, I would like to thank you for listening into what Zach is presenting because this is some good information. And you may say ‘Hey, Mr. Mosely, I think you made some nice points but I don’t quite agree with you’. That’s okay! It's a discussion for you to think about what you want to do with your career and how you’d like to progress with your career. So you can always follow me on twitter @ExecRecruitPro, I’m on twitter there. And if you want to connect with me, my firm that I represent is called Walker Elliott. So you can always email me at kmosley@walker-elliott.com.Zach: And there it is, Kyle Mosely thank you so much again.Kyle: Hey thank you Zach, anytime, let me know and remember - don’t be as good as, be better than.Zach: Amen. Peace, Man.Kyle: Take care, bye.Latricia: And we’re back! Zach that was a great interview. Kyle has a lot of knowledge and I just love his energy.Zach: Yeah for sure. Typically I feel like I’m the bombastic one but he was keeping up with me pretty good. What did you think about his feedback on clearly articulating the number you want and the reason why?Latricia: Yeah, I really enjoyed his practical perspective on things. For example, response methods. So not just blurting out concerns like ‘that’s not enough money!’, but pausing before you speak, and making it a little awkward. That was really funny, but it makes sense because it’s that psychological approach. There were some mind games there and I just really enjoyed that.Zach: Absolutely. I enjoyed it as well. I also appreciated that he said how this is his perspective and not Gospel. We definitely enjoyed having him on the show, and we definitely want to have him back.Latricia: Yeah he was great. We need to make sure we drop his contact information so everyone can reach out to him if they have any additional questions or concerns.Zach: For sure! Ok - Well look, let’s get into our next segment - favorite things, where we talk about our favorite things these days. Latricia I’ll let you start.Latricia: Yeah, so my favorite thing right now has to be biking. So, it’s very important that you stay fit. I recently participated in BikeMS in Dallas, it was a 160 mile bike route. Of course I did not do the 160 because I am a beginner. So I did the beginner route, but I love biking, it’s a great way to exercise without feeling like it’s punishment, and I’m hoping that next year I can actually complete the entire course.Zach: Man that’s really cool. And we definitely, definitely wanna stay fit, and I’m really excited actually because I know down the road we want to actually have a whole show about personal wellness. Right? And that’s a big part of it. Physical wellness is a huge part of it. Well, cool. My Favorite thing right now has to be, believe it or not, this Snoop Dogg Gospel album.Listen, y’all--Latricia: Ohh, that album is fire!Zach: It is Fire, it is really really good. I mean, welcome to 2018. Like, I can say that Snoop Dogg, at this point -- and again I didn’t want to be a prisoner of the moment, so I said welcome to 2018--where Snoop Dogg has dropped one of the coldest gospel albums I have ever heard. And it’s been some months now and this album is still heavy in my rotation, especially when folks trying me at work. To be honest.Latricia: [laughs] I actually listen to that song when I’m at work, too. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show - Like The Read , make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. My name is Latricia.Zach: and I’m Zach.Latricia, Zach: peace!Mrs. Jackson: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post Production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on twitter, facebook, instagram and living dash corporate dot com. Thanks for listening! Stay tuned.