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Zach chats with Dr. Lily Jampol on this special Saturday episode themed around allyship and privilege. She and Zach discuss the diversity, equity and inclusion space at length, and Dr. Jampol shares her perspective on both where the industry is going and what the next step is to really take it to the next level. Check the links in the show notes to check out the work of several prominent Black authors and thought leaders!Connect with Dr. Jampol on LinkedIn and Twitter.Dive into the work of Stephanie Jones-Rogers, Ibram Kendi, Rachel Cargle, and Ijeoma Oluo.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we're back. Yes, we're back from outer space, having another great conversation with someone who is passionate about amplifying Black and brown voices at work, 'cause that's what we do, right? Like, we exist to highlight and center underrepresented perspectives and experiences and identities at work, and we've been around, shoot, now going on a couple--like, it's almost up to year 2 now, and I'm just really thankful for all the support. So shout-out to all of our listeners. Shout-out to the folks working 9-to-5. Shout-out to the people working 10-to-9s. You know, whatever y'all working, man, shout-out to y'all. And then of course shout-out to our allies, you know? Our Buckys, our White Wolves. So, you know, for those who are not Marvel fans, Bucky was Captain America's sidekick, and then when he had to be rehabilitated because he was brainwashed by Dr. Zemo, Baron Zemo, he then went to Wakanda, and when he went to Wakanda he became "the White Wolf." And, you know, Wakanda's all Africa. You know, it's all a bunch of African people, 'cause it's in Africa so it's all Black people. But he was the White Wolf. Like, he was trusted. You know, he was a true ally of the people. So all of that to say we also engage allies on Living Corporate, right? So this is not, like, exclusive, right? Like, if you are less melanated, then as long as you're down for the Wakandans, hey, we're down for y'all, right? So with that being said, we have a really dope guest - Dr. Lily Jampol. Dr. Lily Jampol helps organizations solve difficult challenges and ensure that their workplaces are happy, productive, and equitable. She primarily works with the diversity, equity and inclusion firm ReadySet based in Oakland, California, and a people scientist and strategist. Dr. Jampol is also a frequent speaker and writes on diversity and inclusion from a behavioral science data perspective. She believes that one of the keys to moving forward is understanding how people think, behave, and relate. Lily, Dr. Jampol, Dr. L, Dr. J, what's up? How are you doing?Dr. Jampol: I'm doing pretty great. I'm almost always doing great. I'm feeling super fulfilled by my work right now, and I'm generally speaking a pretty positive person, so it's all good. I feel like it's a rare thing when the anger and disappointment that you feel about the world and society can be channeled into your actual day job, so I'm constantly grateful for that and all of the other wonderful things in my life.Zach: Man, you know, and you've been a few different places, right? So I know that you're at ReadySet today, but you've had a journey, right? Like, can we talk about your background and how you got into this world of diversity and inclusion?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, definitely. Well, so I've always been a pretty curious person about other people and society in general. I've also taken some non-traditional routes in my career trying to follow that curiosity, and in terms of background I actually grew up in an eco hotel in Costa Rica, and that was a really interesting experience for me. It was the first time that I really saw inequality, and yet also I had to confront how my white privilege played out there even while I felt like an outsider myself. So growing up in a different country and also a hotel made me super curious about just how people relate to each other, how differences play out in society. I also came from a pretty social justice family since they're all eco warriors, so I knew I wanted to do something social justice related. I started off in political science, but I ended up getting my Ph.D in social psychology where I was examining human behavior, specifically gender bias in organizations. So for a while I thought I was gonna be in academia, and I spent 3 years as a professor in London at a business school, but while I really enjoyed my research, I really was also feeling like I could make a bigger impact working to implement that research in organizations, and this all came to a head when I was going through the middle of a pretty nasty divorce and I was like, "Screw everything," so I quit my 10-year [track?] career and joined a tech startup here in Silicon Valley, and after a few months there I realized I wasn't really working as much on issues that felt really socially important, so I transitioned to working with ReadySet, my amazing team, doing diversity, equity and inclusion work, and I've done serious amounts of learning since then. So I came into this work thinking that I was an expert in my field, and I didn't realize how much of a novice I was when it came to actual equity issues. First of all, I barely knew or used the term "intersectional feminism" before starting this work in the field. So part of what I love about my job now is how much I've been able to grow as a person and also help others who are just beginning their journey to be able to do so too, and I really do have my colleagues and my network to thank for that.Zach: That's incredible. And, you know, you talk about your privilege and you talk about, like, you coming to learn things and experience things on your own and develop certain levels of fluency and awareness. I couldn't help but notice myself that you're white, you know what I'm saying? Like, it leapt out to me. [laughs] I'm curious to know about how your whiteness intersects with the work that you do within behavioral and data science and, like, you know, when I say how it intersects with the work you do, like, how does it impact how you show up, and what observations do you have in, like, being in this space?Dr. Jampol: Yes. Right, I am very white, or unmelanated as you put before. I'm literally half-Viking, half-Ashkenazi Jew. Zach: That's incredible actually. Shout-out to both the Ashkenazi Jews and the Vikings. That's--wow.Dr. Jampol: My mom is basically, like, 100% Swedish, Norwegian, so yeah, definitely have some Viking blood in the background. My whiteness really does impact my work in a pretty big way. So when I started my Ph.D I was actually focusing on behavioral economics, and the reason that I'm telling you this background is because I want to explain how my behavior and my work has changed since then. So when I was doing behavioral economics, in that field it's mostly dominated by white men, still is, and when I was doing that work I always felt like I had to prove myself to be taken seriously, and when I started transitioning into looking at gender biases, I was told to stop doing that work by many of my advisers and colleagues because I was told no one was gonna take me seriously as a scientist. Now, of course that made me want to do the work more, but now that I'm a white person and I have a data and quantitative background, I realize how privileged that identity is. So I can come into a room with a bunch of tech executives and lay my Ph.D out on the table, proverbially speaking, talk data with them, and they give me the validation and respect that many of my colleagues who have been doing this work much longer than me and who are not white just don't get, and it actually impacts the way that I play a role on my team, and for good reason. So for example, we had a company who we were working with who were just not taking the CEO of my company seriously, who is a Black woman, and she has a JD from Harvard. She worked as an international human rights lawyer. She's the CEO of her own successful company, has been doing this work for, you know, 5 times as long as I have. You put me in the room, and I had only been working in this space for a few months, and their attitudes just totally changed. They went from, you know, defensive and aggressive to, "Oh, yeah. Of course. You know, this sounds great. What do we need to do to get there?" Zach: Can I pause right there though? 'Cause, like, I'm so--I'm so triggered. [laughs]Dr. Jampol: Okay. I'm sorry about triggering you. [laughs]Zach: No, no, it's not your fault. [laughs] So the reason why I'm pausing is because I think--and we haven't done these studies because of white fragility and the fact that I think academia is still, like, very much so, like, a white space, but I wish--and maybe we have and I just haven't seen it, but I'd love to see a behavioral study done on how the majority tends to treat Black and brown professionals with a certain level of hostility and defensiveness that they don't treat white counterparts, right? Like, your earlier point about the CEOs, like, why--and I've been in situations where I've been on the receiving end or I've observed. Like, "Why are you talking to me like I'm your enemy or like I'm trying to get you?" Like, "Why are we not able to have, like, an actual dialogue?" Like, "Why does everything feel really transactional and, like, a zero-sum game in this conversation," you know what I mean?Dr. Jampol: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I totally do, and I think, you know, you're totally reading my mind about wanting to do some behavioral studies on this stuff. I think about this all the time too, and I think you're absolutely right. There is quite a bit of evidence showing that people from underrepresented backgrounds in different domains, including women, have to prove it again and again and again and give more and more legitimacy in order to be taken seriously, but I do think that the aggression and hostility is an interesting component of this, and I have a lot of theories about why, and I think--and I don't want to go too down the rabbit hole, but you got me excited about this topic, so just for a second... so [a study] I've been really playing around with in my head is the entitlement to the good will and patience of people of color towards white people to learn and to get to where they need to be, and I'm talking about not just, you know, average people, but well-meaning, progressive, liberal people who still believe that it is your work, people of color's work, to be able to get them to where they need to be. And it is my job, and it is our jobs as, you know, a company, but I would love to see research showing that there's an entitled expectation to how we're supposed to be doing this work for people and also putting up with them when they don't want to do it and don't want to, you know, put their 50% of the work in. So there's lots of other studies I want to go over, but that's just one I've been playing around with as well, that entitlement aspect.Zach: Yes. So I'm not trying to cut you off, 'cause you're telling a story, so I'm not trying to--ironically--mansplain and jump all over your stuff, so please continue with the story. It's just that you said that and I was like, "Oh," and I wanted to just ask the question. So please continue. So you come into this space. You're relatively new. The CEO, the person who actually built the company and has the education from a fairly elite, recognized institution is not as well-received, but you come in and the whole vibe changes.Dr. Jampol: Yes. The whole vibe changes. Not only that, but we just have more--you know, an easier time getting [?] and actually comvincing people, but I think I also want to talk about one interesting other thing that I observed, and this is something that I've observed in a couple of different companies and situations in that a lot of the people who do this, I think that we have this idea of what that person looks like, the CEO of a company or who sits on the board of a company. White women are very much involved in the same process, and in fact I see this pattern from white women almost more than I see it from white men, and I think there's something interesting in that.Zach: Wait a minute. [record scratch sfx] Say that again.Dr. Jampol: I think that often we see white women putting up the most resistance to doing diversity, equity and inclusion work within companies, especially if they've already achieved a position of power. And, you know, there's a litany of reasons why that happens. A lot of them are psychological. A lot of them are just where women sit in the power hierarchy of society. So they sit in the middle, not at the highest point--which is where white men sit--and not at the lowest point, which is where a lot of people of color sit in terms of how much power and influence you have. So they have a lot to lose, and a lot of the ways that women have managed to achieve a semblance of power is by either mimicking white men or upholding the very systems of oppression that have, well, essentially benefitted them for a long time, but also benefitted white men. So there's a lot to lose by getting rid of that power, but there's also a kind of "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" attitude of "Well, I got here, so why does anyone else need help to do so?" But I do think that there's something greater in terms of how white women have benefitted from systems of oppression compared to women of color and men of color.Zach: And I wonder, like--and so, you know, I am not a Ph.D, so when I say things like, "You know, I haven't seen this," I'm not trying to say that it doesn't exist. What research or what, like, written work would you recommend, if any, that explores, like, the historicity of white women and their relation to systems of power in America?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. That's a great question, and I also want to, before I continue, just say that I don't have, you know, quantitative research to back that observation up. It's an observation I made. However, this idea that white women uphold systems of oppression can be seen in lots of other data that we have. For example, who is the group that voted Donald Trump into power? We have lots of other data to show that white women are upholding systems of oppression, but I think, you know, we can go back and look at historical data about how this happened. Stephanie Jones Rogers is an amazing academic who wrote about how white women were complicit in slavery, essentially, in the American South, and it really starts there. You know, it starts in other areas of colonialism, but there's quite a few academics who are writing about this, and there's also thought leaders who are writing about this as well. Rachel Cargle. Robin DiAngelo. I mean, she's a white author, but she's written extensively on white fragility. Ibram Kendi, Ijeoma Oluo. Those are all folks that I think are really interesting to read and have [?] a lot more on this than I have.Zach: And again, like, just shout-out to you for, like, highlighting Black authors and other thought leaders in your quick list that you just, like, sprouted off like it was nothing. That's super dope. So let's talk about that then, right? We've talked a little bit about how we've seen, like, power abused or taken advantage of, but I'd like to talk a little bit more about what, like, effective allyship looks like, right? And we've had a few of these types of calls, like, these conversations on Living Corporate. I don't think that, like, they ever get old. I think it's really important that we have advocates and aspirational allies on this platform, because there are a variety of people that listen to Living Corporate. A lot of diversity and inclusion professionals listen to Living Corporate, and I can say that I just--I don't know if I've even seen a lot of programming that is really explicit on what it means to build inclusive behaviors as a leader. I don't know if I've seen training that's really, really intentional in building that fluency or building that capability or that muscle, whatever word you want to use, and so I'm really curious from your perspective, what do you think it looks like, specific to white women, what does effective allyship look like in the workplace? Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's such a great question, and I think we're talking about allyship more and more, and it's something that we talk a lot about with the organizations we work with. I think that first of all--let's talk about intentions for a minute. I think I feel sometimes when I talk about white women that there is this assumption that there is an intention to be racist, for example. I don't think that that's necessarily true. I think there's a strong desire to be good people, and I think that, you know, women, having been marginalized themselves, feel like they have been victims of that marginalization as well. The problem is that strong desire to be a good person, when they are told that their actions are contributing to racism or they are complicit in a system of white supremacy, it makes us feel threatened that our own progressiveness, our own willingness to help others, our idealism of ourselves as good people is super threatened, and that makes us shut down, and I think that's because we've been--and I'm not the first person to say this obviously as lots of people have written on it, it's what we teach--we have not had to grow up and experience the discomfort of having to talk about race and racism and systems of oppression. And so for a lot of people this is the first time they're even hearing about it. So the first thing is just being comfortable with that discomfort of understanding that it's not about you, it's about systems of oppression that you still might have behaviors and even attitudes that are formed through your experience with the world, with culture, with television, with radio. The way that we learn how to stereotype is just ingrained in our society, and so we have to start slowing down and be able to recognize how we actually are contributing to that. We have to also be careful in terms of allyship with how we show up. So I'm always trying to be conscientious about not taking up too much space and making sure that I'm amplifying non-white voices and work and also listening more than I talk. I think this has been a big change for me over the last couple years. This is also part of the framework that we teach in our Ally Skills workshop, which I co-facilitate with my colleagues Willie Jackson and Kim Tran at ReadySet, and it's really about moving from passive allyship to active allyship, what we call being an accomplice. So it means centering impacted communities rather than yourself, owning your impact when you hurt somebody's feelings over your intentions to not have hurt their feelings, listening and learning and expressing humility and amplifying other people's voices, and it's also about how we demonstrate growth and are humble when we mess up, and we will mess up. So I myself am trying to be a better accomplice in this work. I think in terms of D&I practitioners there's a huge place for white women who are working in this space, and I know a lot of white women are trying to figure out what exactly their role is. I think one of our roles is to be able to do some of the emotional work and the burden of carrying some of these conversations and some of this work forward so that it's not only people of color who are doing it. So there's also--you know, my white privilege as a white person, I can get angry and I can push back in a way that doesn't have the same repercussions for my Black colleagues. I can lend my voice or carry conversations that are triggering or exhausting for people of color to do, for example, convincing white women that they play a part in white supremacy or that feminism has to be intersectional for it to work. So I think there's very specific roles that we can play that can help us be better allies, both personally and to other folks in the DEI space. Zach: And, you know, it's just such an interesting dynamic too when you talk about, like--so, like, the things you're talking about around feeling threatened or feeling attacked or feeling just various levels of insecurity, like, it's really interesting as it intersects with having white women managers, right? [both laugh] Or then, like, being even more complex is having a white woman manager who is, like, supposed to be the czar of diversity and inclusion, and you're working for this person and it's like, "Okay. I recognize that you've been invited to these very, like, exclusive white spaces to sit on a panel and, you know, to word diarrhea on diversity and inclusion and, like, the latest thing that you read in Cosmopolitan, but I also have insights and life experience, and those life experiences mean things, and I know things by merit of my life that you may not understand or you just frankly don't even think about." And it's just interesting to me when I think about, like, this dynamic of, like, the corporatized diversity and inclusion space and how you have often times white women in these positions of leadership in these groups, and they themselves are either--I mean, everybody has blind spots, so it's not, like, even this huge knock. It's not, like, this huge indictment. It's just the reality of you're trying to lead a space that it's critical for you to be empathetic, coachable and humble in, and if you think that you have nothing to learn or you think that everyone around you, especially people of color, Black and brown folks, are just there to do your bidding, like, that is just cruelly ironic, you know what I mean? But I see that though. I see that often, like, in these corporate spaces, where, you know, Whoever is, like, the leader of D&I, and it's like, "Why are you here?" And I know there's tension, right? Like, I've had conversations with Jennifer Brown, and she's talked about, like--I'm not gonna say she's on one side and I'm on the other, but my impression of our conversation was, like, "I feel like we're--" We being white D&I professionals--"are constantly questioned and have to really show and prove that we should be here," and I'm kind of like, "Well, yeah. You should though." I mean, I'm not trying to be, like, a jerk. It's just like, "You should. You should show and prove that you should be here, because we don't have a historical track record of--" Like, I don't know of a model, like, a person, a white diversity and inclusion, one diversity and inclusion that is like, "Wow, this is the model." And I've asked other--you know what I mean? I know I'm kind of ranting, but I'm asking--Dr. Jampol: No, no. I hear you, I do, and I actually really agree with you. It's something that I've thought a lot about, even as I'm thinking about my own career trajectory, right? Because I want to help do this work, but I don't want to occupy a position of power first of all on my own as a white person, like, I don't think I should be the head of diversity and inclusion at a company, at least not right now in this societal context, because I think context really matters too, and I think we often don't think about that. We think in terms of meritocracy, you know, about, like, "Who has worked hard and who deserves to be here and who doesn't?" But we're talking about representation. We're talking about justice. We're talking about repairing harms that have been done over hundreds of years in our society, and right now diversity and inclusion is often one of the places where people of color can have influence and power within a company. And it's important too because--well, I'm not explaining it to you, because I'm hearing all of your points and I'm just saying that I agree with you, because I think you have to be in a position of taking a step back and learning, and I think you can find your niche as a white person in this area--I mean, mine is behavioral science data right now. I'm also still trying to figure that out, but I'm also really focused on learning, 'cause if we're not doing that personal learning, we're just repeating those same things that have happened throughout history, and we're repeating those hierarchies and we're maintaining that status quo. So yes, short, TL;DR, you're right. [both laugh]Zach: It's interesting too. I want to talk about your work, right? I think something we first talked about, like, when we first did an introductory call is I'm curious about what does it look like because--so, like, I've met people who are in D&I and, like, they purport themselves to be, like, data strategists, right? But they don't actually have any actual context--and I'm kind of jumping ahead, because this is a part of a question I'm gonna ask you in a little bit, but they don't really have, like, the empathy or the, like, fluency and, like, understanding of American history that would then inform how they do their work. So in my mind, and this is based off just my very limited experience, right, is it feels to melike you're almost sitting in two camps. Like, you're sitting in, like, this hard, quantitative, scientific, measured space, but then you're also--because of your own background you still do have a passion around, like, connecting inclusion and diversity and equity with justice and the historical foundations of the work itself, as well as the work and writings of Black and brown women and activists and people who came before you, right? So, like, do you feel a duality there? Do you feel as if, like, you're uniquely placed, or do you feel as if your profile is common within, like, this data science and behavioral space that you work in?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's a great question. I think about this a lot. I don't think that it's common. I think if it was common we'd see a lot more data scientists doing diversity, equity and inclusion work, and I mean--there's other reasons for that. I mean, I could be making a $300,000 salary if I wanted to do data science in a tech company. We don't do this work for the money. But I do think that I've had different relationships with data and how I approach this work, and I think I do want to start this by saying that it's really because of my team at ReadySet that I have become this hybrid that I feel comfortable [?] and that I am able to do both the quantitative aspects of my job and also the very human aspects of my job. I think when I came into this field I had been taught my entire career that quantitative evidence-based scientifically published data is the only type of data of value. So evidence-based work, evidence-based in general is such a buzzword now. I think everybody hears it, and I think people believe "evidence-based" means that it has to be couched in [?] methods and scientific papers and outcomes calculated in ROI, and I definitely did when I started with this work. So I'll just tell you a quick story. I think in my first week of working with ReadySet I was analyzing data for a company, and I was doing it the way that I had always been taught to, which is trying to find significant statistical difference between groups in a sample, and in order to do that, when you have fewer than 5 people in a sample you usually just take [?] out because it's not gonna be statistically valid, and I remember having this conversation. I think in the room was [?], one of my colleagues, and Kim Tran, and we started this conversation, which was started by them, which was, "Why are we leaving out a small sample?" Now, this sample had been a sample of transgender people within a company, and in my mind I was just like, "Well, we'll just leave them out 'cause they're not a big enough group," and they were--you know, that was how I had been taught, and they were like, "Wait, but the whole point of doing this work is to represent the voices and the opinions and the feelings of underrepresented, small numbers of people within a company," and I was like, "God, that makes total sense," and it's ridiculous that I had even thought in my mind that that was an appropriate thing to do, you know, in terms of getting these major insights. So that's just a story about, you know, how I first started thinking about this, so I really want to give credit to my teammates for helping me get there. I still think that evidence-based research is important, but so much of that research is based on white, Euro-centric idea samples and methods. Quant data can be super useful, let's say if you want to track representation in your company or show that a bias exists, but it should not be necessary for doing this work. It's just that our concept of data, what data is and what kind of data is valid and important is biased, and I've been writing about this a lot recently. I'm trying to publish it soon, but I've just been getting--I feel like this idea is so complex and interesting, but I have noticed that there has been a trend with the people that we work with, and that is people's responses to DEI work in particular, they use data--and data with a big D, I call it--to stall and delegitimize or otherwise reject diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. Zach: Yo! Yo, wait a second! Golly, Dr. Jampol on here dropping crazy, crazy, crazy Flex bombs. [Flex bomb sfx] Oh, my gosh. And then also--Dr. Jampol: Yeah, and please feel free to, like, stop me whenever. I tend to just go on [?].Zach: Yo! Yeah, I'm trying not to cut you off. I'm trying not to be rude. And also air horns for your team, 'cause I know you shouted them out. [air horns sfx] Okay, so first of all, yo, man, tell me why you're talking about--you said people use big Data, big capital D data, to discount D&I initiatives and--like, say that again.Dr. Jampol: Yeah. So I think that people are using data to basically put off doing the hard work, to delegitimize the work itself or just reject, like, having to do any of that work itself, and I'll explain a little bit why I think this is happening. So I think it's happening in part because the way that people in power use data in relation to diversity, equity and inclusion work is similar to other ways that we inadvertently uphold systems of oppression. It's essentially gatekeeping, and it benefits white people, and I think one of the ways that I've seen this is overly demanding evidence from DEI best practices. So wanting to know, like, what exactly is going to work here in my specific context, but then also refusing to contribute to those best practices by actually being innovative and taking risks in that space so that we can add to the knowledge base. And then another way is through dehumanizing human data by not looking beyond the quote-unquote "hard data," so not wanting to listen to people's stories, not wanting to hear the voices of employees that already exist within their organizations, by not wanting to listen to experts, people like my teammates who have been spending years doing this work, and then finally using data or the need for more evidence to block the efforts to actually go forward on that data. And so often, you know, we'll have a conversation with people that often sounds like, "Okay, here's why we should go forward with this program," and they'll come back and say, "Okay, okay, but do you have any data on whether this is gonna work?" And I'll come back and say, "Look, we don't have a ton of data yet. This is still a pretty new field, and there's lots of different people doing it. It really depends on what your context is. But, like, here's what we know." "Okay, but that's not enough data. Like, we really can't go forward with this until there's something that's not gonna be as risky." So then we'll come back and say, "[We] collected all this data from inside of your organization. Here's this group, this group and this group that are saying, "I'm not happy." Please do these things," and they'll say, "Okay, but how many people actually said it, and can you actually go get us some [?] studies of other companies like mine that have done this so we don't take a risk and don't make people upset?" And then we say, "Which people are you making upset?" And then they look blankly and say, "Wait a second." And we're like, "Yeah, [white?] people." Anyway, I think the reason I put it this way is that I think that data is important, yes, [but?] data is used as a tool to block this work because it is inherently uncomfortable and it involves having to do [?] and it involves having to do some money and some priorities into it, and I think people ultimately just don't think it's that important, and so they're able to use data as this kind of delegitimizing or scapegoating force that they can say, "Well, we don't have enough to do it." That's my thoughts on that in a nutshell.Zach: First of all, again, shout-out to you 'cause, man, that's incredible. You know, I might have to go ahead and drop another Flex bomb... [Flex bomb sfx] 'cause that's incredible. So it's interesting though, because you're talking about how organizations can use quote-unquote "data" to slow down or block efforts to make organizations more inclusive, but I also think, like, there's something to be said about how data itself is reported, aggregated or analyzed, right? So how do we account for, and how in your experience as a data scientist do you account for, the biases that exist within, like, data analytics itself, right? So let's just say you get the data. How do you account for biases on the day that you receive it, and how do you account for any biases that you have, conscious or otherwise, in how you analyze and report that out?Dr. Jampol: Yeah, that's a really great question, and--I mean, there's a lot to be said here, and I think this conversation is happening in other places like AI as well. I think first of all, like, the way that we use--so let's go back to the evidence-based question for a minute. So when people talk about evidence, they're often talking about academic research that has been done. As an academic researcher myself, I know that a lot of this research is really not legitimate for talking about any bit of this work with any kind of intersectional lens, because most of this work has been done using a super white sample at an Ivy League institution in a lab where all of the variables have been held constant except for the one that you're researching, and that unfortunately has translated in a lot of cases to best practices where people say, "Oh, well, we have to change this one thing in our organization because research has shown when you change this one thing, this happens." Of course that doesn't really incorporate a lot of people's experiences, and I want to say also that I am fully guilty of doing this in my past research. So as a gender bias researcher, I often talked about women and men as this very, like, homogeneous group, and really when I'm talking about women and men I'm talking about white women and men, because that's my sample and that's the lens through which I was doing the work. And, like, Black women's experiences are gonna be super different and my affects might totally change. You know, one of my affects that I found is that women--and I should say white women because that was the majority of my sample--are given less accurate performance feedback than man. So even though they're judged to be doing poorly, their managers will tell them that they're doing okay. By the way, this work was done in a lab with a primarily sample of white people who were Ivy League educated and through samples in, you know, Mechanical Turk online. So just thinking about that through an intersectional lens, do I know that that is going to happen in the same way for women of color when we're thinking about different types of women in the workplace? No, and yet we still use these words, you know, "This is a gender bias effect," you know, without really knowing what some of the different groups might experience. So I do think there's that bias. I also think in terms of the data that we're analyzing. This is another really important thing. When we get survey data, often companies just want to rely on that survey data to make decisions, but the problem is there are certain groups--especially the ones that feel less safe in organizations--that do not answer the survey, and so you're leaving out groups of people who are the most important to hear from if you're just looking at one type of information. Instead it's better to go and do a qualitative assessment on top of the data and make sure you're getting down to the bottom of some of the trends that you see, but also you're including voices that wouldn't necessarily participate in a written way. So there's lots of different ways that bias can creep in, and the way that we analyze it and the way that we do that research is really important.Zach: I'm really curious about your opinions on this, and I've shared this on another interview but I want to bring it up here. So your work heavily focuses on partnering with organizations to help them set up their D&I strategies, and when I talked to other diversity, equity and inclusion professionals, a lot of time this work is delivered in the context of office hours or workshops or, you know, trainings. I'm curious though, like, have you helped groups transition from seeing diversity, equity and inclusion as, like, these isolated, singular events to being more of, like, an iterative journey that they're on to develop and grow and, like, partner with them? Like, have you seen that or have you helped any organizations kind of pivot in that way?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. So I think it's hard. I think it's really hard. Most of the work we get is for "check the box" type work. Initially a lot of organizations want to come in and hire us to do a workshop or an assessment and then go from there, which is totally fine. Often the people who are initiating those programs are internal HR and DEI practitioners who have a very limited budget that they're working with and need something to be able to convince stakeholders that this is worthwhile and that there's a desire for it or they just want to get it flowing. So we love doing that kind of work because it allows us to be able to impart important knowledge. For example, we focus a lot on systems bias, not just interpersonal or unconscious bias. We focus on biases that are structural and how those relate to historical systems of oppression. So we do get our education in there, but in order to do this work successfully it has to be integrated with other business objectives and as an outcome itself. So we know, you know, you can make the business case for it. It's tied to ROI. It's tied to innovation. I mean, it's a really important part of culture. I've found that in order to convince stakeholders I often offer the risk side of this as well. It's really risky to not do this work for many reasons. I mean, talent attraction for one, but there's also your culture can fall apart, and that can actually lose tons of money. But ultimately our aim is to get people to see why it's more than a business case, and I think we've had this success with a couple of companies. I'm thinking of one in particular where--and actually this is one that I've mentioned before in some of my stories, where we came in and did a series of conversations with the executive team trying to convince them that, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion is a good way to go, and it took a long time. It took 6 months of really educating people, bringing them in terms of conversation, letting them contribute their thoughts and fears, and really we use, you know, empathy, but also just vulnerability there to understand, like, where the pain point is, and now we've got, you know, a multi-year scope with them, and they have fully understood, and we're working with every single organization and team within their company, and its become a priority, but it did take some time. So I think there's hope to be had, but I think you have to do it really intentionally and really methodically in order to get people there unless you have someone who's on board already.Zach: That really leads me to my next question. What do you think the next step is for diversity, equity and inclusion, like, as an industry, as a corporate for-profit space? And I ask because I see--it's weird, and again, like, I'm not a sociologist, I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a behavioral scientist. I'm just a change manager who is also passionate about diversity and inclusion who's doing his own thing and kind of creating his own path. It's almost like you have this growing activist wing and, like, community organizing wing within this diversity, equity and inclusion space. There's also, like, this growing academic wing that is almost, like, a white moderate, but then I see this other group that's almost pushing against the community organizing activist attitudes and sentiments, almost to the point where--'cause I've seen things like this on LinkedIn, no doubt, where I've seen things that people say, "Just because you're a person of color doesn't mean that you should be in diversity and inclusion," right? There's these narratives of, "You're passionate, but your passion doesn't equal education or credentialing." And so I'm really curious about, like, where do you see this space going next, and what do you think is, like, the next step to really take this work to the next level?Dr. Jampol: Yeah. That's a big question, and I'm just gonna kind of share some thoughts. I don't know that I have a perfect answer for you on this, but I think to your comment around--you know, you see these kind of different camps on social media and practitioners and different approaches and ways of doing this work, and I think actually that that's a really important dynamic to have to move the work forward. I think it's the same thing we see, say, like, in the Democratic Party, where there's a more radical left side and then there's the centrist side and then there's this push and pull constantly of, like, "What do we do and where do we go?" And through doing that we're creating new definitions and understandings. And, you know, I get a ton of education from just reading through Twitter on a daily basis of, like, "Oh, I didn't know that word. I hadn't thought about it in that way before," and trying to see, like, where my values align, but I think that in order to progress we need pressure from the outside. We need radical pressure, and we also need the more compromising inside pressure of "Okay, we're gonna take this slow and do this methodically and bring people along," and I think you need both those forces. I think the outside pressure is the social pressure that really validates some of the inside pressure that we're putting on people. So let's say I'm taking a company along, trying to get them to understand using empathy, and they're doing okay, but then they have a PR crisis because something they posted on their social media site gets called out, and those two forces operating together create a really successful way forward, and I think that's also why there's different roles for different people within this space. I do think we should be pushing boundaries, and I do think we should be pushing people to get there, and I think some of the comments that are happening around this stuff is really just evidence that that's happening, and I think the third part of this is just that we need companies to lend more support to actual innovation within this space. Going back to that data conversation, you know, by demanding best practices and more evidence to prove the things that we already know work and to prove that we're actually legitimate in doing this work, it's stifling innovation. We need organizations and leaders who have the privilege of being in these spaces already to put money and time and effort and spaces towards creating innovation in the DEI space. We need more collaboration between academics, leaders, corporate employees, and we all need to work together to be able to create new pathways forward, but I think we have to get out of that head space of thinking about, "Best practices, best practices, best practices," and start taking a little bit more risk, because I think we're seeing risk the wrong way. We're seeing risk as like, "What if I do this work and it goes wrong?" when we should be seeing risk the way that any other company sees innovation and risk, which is sometimes you have to play around with the parameters in order to do the work the most effective way. But I as a data person would love to see data on this, just so we can keep track of what we're doing and what works and what doesn't. I think I would love to see more data like that, but it means that companies have to release their data on what works and what doesn't, and when diversity and inclusion stops being a shameful thing, you know, when companies stop thinking, "Oh, gosh. It's so horrible that I only have 20% women or 5% Black people in our company. Nobody knows, so I don't want to talk about it." Like, everybody knows. Everybody knows. You're a tech company. Like, it's bad. Talk about it and, like, actually publish it and support new ways of thinking about this stuff. I think we need all three prongs of pressure there to move forward.Zach: Man, Dr. Jampol, I have to just thank you again. Like, this has been a super dope conversation. I want to give you the last word. Is there anything else? Like, any shout-outs? Any parting words before we let you up out of here?Dr. Jampol: Thank you. I feel the same way. This has been such a fun conversation. Thank you for letting me nerd out and be on your podcast. I think your podcast is wonderful. Thank you for doing the work that you do. I also just want to give a shout-out to my team again because they're so amazing and I feel grateful for them every single day and for all the authors who have helped educate me to get here. And Twitter. Honestly, like--not Twitter the company but, like, the people who are actually being brave and voicing their thoughts on Twitter and helping educate us, even if it means that they are taking flack for it. I think it's been such an important part of my own growth. So thanks to everybody.Zach: Oh, man. That's beautiful, and yes, we'll make sure that we list all the authors and we'll have all of that content in the show notes, y'all, so make sure you check it out because, again, believe women, listen to women, believe Black women, believe all women. There's a lot of great work that's being done, you know? For those of y'all who are--you know, it's funny. There's an understated, like, expectation or kind of, like, tension around who really deserves to talk about these things, and those conversations don't really happen until Black and brown people start trying to talk about diversity and inclusion, but that's a whole other conversation. But the point is a lot of the work that comes into really educating yourself, what I've been learning is, is about reading the work that Black and brown women have written about this space, right? And so I just want to encourage, like, if you're listening to this and you're passionate about diversity, equity and inclusion, check out the show notes, use that as a starting point, and just start reading. Like, educate yourself something. Like, don't depend on these super Ivy League white institutions to tell you what diversity is. It is one of multiple data points. I would say start with the Black women and then work your way outward from there. All right. Well, cool, cool, cool. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this. You know we're posting content three times a week. We're all over the place, so if you just Google Living Corporate we're gonna pop up, 'cause we got it like that. Ow. We're also on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and again, if you want to check us out, if you just gotta--let's say you old school and you wanna type it in the browser, then it's www.living-corporate.com--please say the dash. We're also livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.org--Lily, we have all the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other ones. We're trying to--what's that thing when you... SEO. We're trying to take it over, okay? One domain at a time. So we're out here. Let's see here. Until next time, this again has been Zach, and you've been listening to Dr. Lily Jampol, data scientist, behavioral organizational just beast, general researcher, all over super dope White Wolf ally... what else we got? I don't want to say edge-snatcher because, I mean, you're still white. I'm not trying to get you in trouble, but just super cool Viking Ashkenazi Jew hero. How about that? Is that cool?Dr. Jampol: That's awesome, and I'm someday hopefully gonna fit that all in my LinkedIn profile. [both laugh]Zach: 'Til next time, y'all. We'll catch y'all. Peace. [both still laughing]Dr. Jampol: Bye.

Zach sits down with Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco Healthcare, and they talk about being an executive while Black, COVID-19, and advice around navigating corporate America on this special Monday episode.Connect with Ken on LinkedIn.Donate to the Justice for Breonna Taylor GoFundMe by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Check out our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and wow. You know, I'm recording this on May 27th, and it's challenging times, right? You know, we talk about Living Corporate being a platform that amplifies and centers marginalized voices at work, and one thing about--I'm gonna just speak from a Black perspective--is that we say that being Black is exhausting, like, that's a common phrase you'll hear, like, on Twitter and stuff. Black people say it, and we'll say it also in conversation, like, "Being Black is exhausting," but the reality is being Black is incredible. It's the systems of oppression, and that's cultural, that's political, that's legal, that's legislative, that's economic, that's judicial, that's... like, these systems come together and make being Black exhausting, and so I come to you today, you know, I'm excited, I'm thankful to be here, and I'm thankful wherever you are. I see you. I appreciate you. You're loved and you're supported. You know, we exist to really be a space, a digital oasis if you will, of encouragement and affirmation, and so we do that on this platform by having real talk in a corporate world. We interview CEOs. We interview executives and entrepreneurs and authors and activists, scholars, authors, all types of folks, really tackling perspectives from marginalized experiences and marginalized identities, marginalized meaning underestimated, underrepresented, under-supported, and we do that every week, and today is no different, y'all. We have Ken Miller. Ken Miller is, man, one of the few CEOs we've had on the platform. I just want to actually get right into it. Ken, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Ken: I'm doing fantastic, Zach. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: Oh, man. I have to ask, you know, how are you and your family doing during this time?Ken: As you said, these are very, very difficult times, challenging for all of us. In fact, you know, this COVID-19 crisis has truly impacted my family. Unfortunately I lost my grandmother to COVID-19. I lost my uncle to COVID-19. My mother-in-law tested positive and is now in the hospital. So this pandemic is truly impacting all of us, in particular my family and moreover people of color around the world, and we gotta do everything we can to try to get this thing under control, Zach.Zach: Absolutely. You know, I want to get right into it, right? Every now and then, like, I'll read this huge bio for folks, right, but I really want to give you space to talk to us a little bit about yourself, talk about your company, your background, and just what you want folks to know about you.Ken: Yeah, for sure. I come from very humble beginnings. I grew up in Westchester County in New York City in a very small town called Greenberg, New York, and growing up in Greenberg, we all grew up like family, and I was fortunate enough to have a very tight network of family and friends that really supported me in my development, made sure that I did everything I had to do academically as well as build some decent athletic skills. And I was fortunate enough to go to college. In fact, I was the first member of my family to go to a four-year university and actually graduate, and fortunately enough I was able to get into school via football, but while there I grew a passion for academics and ultimately wanting to make a difference. You know, I was fortunate enough to jump into the healthcare industry shortly after undergrad where I just continued to progress, be given more and more responsibility. I had a network of leaders that supported me along the way in my development, continued to challenge me and give me new opportunities, and throughout this journey that's been over 30 years I've been fortunate enough to lead organizations here in the U.S. for major Fortune 100 companies like Pharmacia Pfizer, like Roche Labs, like Novo Nordisk. I even had the opportunity to serve as an ex-patriot in Basel, Switzerland for about two and a half years while with Roche Labs, and I believe that that journey, those experiences, actually prepared me to take on more of a leadership role in healthcare, and currently I am the president and CEO of Nasco Healthcare. We are a healthcare company focused on the development of simulation training solutions for first responders, such as folks who are in the frontlines right now fighting COVID-19, nurses and doctors, to ensure that they build the skills so that they are ready to meet the needs of patients however they present themselves, and so I'm very happy and excited to be on this podcast with you, talk to you a little bit about my background and my journey, but the long and short of it is, Zach, that I come from humble beginnings and I feel very fortunate and thankful to be in this role today to try to make a difference in healthcare. Zach: You know, let's talk about your role. You're the second Black male CEO we've had on the show. I'm curious to get your perspective on what you would say are the biggest factors that have led you to the seat that you're at in Nasco today.Ken: Yeah, absolutely. I would say that it is 1. my faith, as well as my support network, that has led me here. You know, trusting in God, trying to be the best person that I can be, living my life with integrity I think has positioned me well to take on this opportunity. And then having a strong support network. My wife, she's my #1 champion. She's always in my corner. She always helps me make good decisions, as well as my broader network of family members and friends who coach me along the way. I think those two elements have prepared me to be here as CEO and president. Don't get me wrong - I was very fortunate to go to a four-year school, get my undergrad education. I went and got my MBA from the University of Chicago, one of the best business schools in the world. I've worked all around the globe, so I've had great experiences, and I think that those things coupled with the first two points that I made have absolutely prepared me to take on this type of leadership role, Zach.Zach: I'm curious, especially during times like these, and we're coming up right after this whole Amy Cooper situation and the continual just brutalization of Black bodies that continues to be broadcasted on, like, major media platforms... I'm just a manager, but even I as a manager, I feel like my safety net has gotten smaller and smaller as I've progressed in my career. Am I overstating the pressure to succeed as a Black male CEO and, like, the small degree or the lack of grace that you may have the higher up you get? Am I overstating that?Ken: No, not at all, Zach. I do believe that our circles are getting smaller, and the challenges of assuming these leadership roles for men of color are even more and more difficult.Zach: So let's talk about that. How do you manage that stress for you? Like, how do you manage the stress of having to constantly be on your Ps and Qs? What does that look like for you? Ken: Yeah, absolutely. Let me come to the stress element second. Let me start with how to get there, okay? One is you've got to have to an unwavering belief in yourself. This makes me reflect back when I was in third grade, and my third grade teacher seeing me as a Black boy in class tried to put me in a remedial reading group, and my mom was not having it, Zach. My mom marched up to the school and she told that teacher, "There's absolutely nothing wrong with him. He has all of the capabilities as any other kid. All you've got to do is put him in the position and challenge him and hold him accountable." From that moment on, I committed myself to being my absolute best, to having a commitment to excellence in everything in which I do, and so that brings me back to this unwavering confidence and belief in yourself and never giving up, Zach, and I think that if you do that you will achieve your greatest opportunities. You will fulfill your greatest opportunities. Now let me get to your question about the stress, right? You know, listen, obviously being president and CEO comes with a number of pressures. It's a 24 hours a day, 7 day a week job. You're never off. There's always a flood or a fire that you've got to deal with. There's always a great opportunity that needs your input to lean on, to pursue. So it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I think that early on when I assumed this role it was far more challenging and far more stressful because I didn't have the experiences and I reacted to each individual situation with everything. I think that what I've learned, Zach, is to treat triumph and disaster as the true impostor of which it is. I try not to get too high when things are going great. I try not to get too low when things are going poorly. Second aspect of it is that I realize through my career to be successful it's going to take a team, therefore I try to gain organizational alignment and input and have strong trust and agreement among my team, because I know what it's gonna take to win is that it's gonna take the collective effort of all of us working together to achieve our aim or overcome any individual challenge. As a result of that, I think that I'm managing the stress much, much better. Because I don't get too high or too low, as well as because I lean on the capabilities and strengths of my teammates, recognizing that I don't have to take it on all on my own, that there are others that are in this with me to help me solve these challenges.Zach: What does it look like for you to navigate white fragility and build relationships and coalitions of trust with folks that don't look like you, considering where you sit as an executive?Ken: Hey, that's tough, right? You know, it's much easier for us to connect and bond with those that look like us, talk like us, walk like us. It's far easier. But at the same time, that's not the world or the environment in which I work in, right? It never has been, from the minute I walked into corporate America. I've always been surrounded by predominantly Caucasian males and to some degree Caucasian females, very few minorities. And so what I've learned to do throughout my career is find my authentic self, Zach. Be me. Be the best Kenny that Kenny can be and always present that to others, and I think that with me being authentic and genuine I connect better with others, as well as I can have more candid, open and honest conversations about things that are working and things which are not working. Sometimes, you know, my culture--listen, I'm a little direct, you know? I'm a little forward, but I want to make sure that we're having the real conversation and we're not sweeping any issues or concerns under the rug. And so with doing that I think that I've built really strong, long-lasting, trusting relationships with those which I've worked with. If you ever look on my Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook page, you'll see all of my colleagues throughout my 30-year career who are still my friends, who still recognize me for having a contribution in their development and helping them to progress and get to where they are today, and many of them are my Caucasian counterparts.Zach: Let's talk a little bit about Nasco and your journey in healthcare and, like, why this industry specifically.Ken: You know, it's very interesting. Zach, when I came out of undergrad graduating from the University of Albana in 1990, I just wanted to get a high-paying job, you know? So I wanted to get paid, so I jumped out and accepted a role down on Wall Street with Morgan Stanley. You know, I could see my future. I thought I'd be living the high life like The Wolf on Wall Street, but I quickly realized after a short six months in that industry that, although I was succeeding, I was growing, I was learning, I wasn't being fulfilled or personally rewarded, and so I got recruited by a pharmaceutical company and ultimately accepted that role, and I immediately began to flourish, and what I found was that I was able to do good while doing good, and what I mean by that is I was able to grow professionally, be successful, achieve my professional goals and aims, but at the same time I was able to bring healthcare solutions to physicians and nurses that were ultimately on the frontlines of impacting and saving people's lives, and from that I was tremendously rewarded. So throughout my 30-year career I have, with all of my passion, jumped into the deep end with these communities, whether it be the diabetes community, whether it be the psychiatric community, whether it be the simulation and training community of frontline healthcare workers, because I truly believe that the work in which I've done over my 30-year plus career and even to this day is really making a difference in helping to ultimately save lives and make our communities even better.Zach: So we're in extraordinary times. Can we talk a little bit about how Nasco's business is adapting to the market and challenges presented by COVID-19?Ken: Yeah, this is a very challenging time, Zach, and for us we've tried to modify and adjust our business to these times. First and foremost, the number one thing is to keep everyone safe, both the associates that work within Nasco Healthcare as well as their family and friends and the communities in which they live. So what we've first done is that we've enabled as many associates within the organization that have the ability to work from home to work from home. For all of those who are essential and critical to maintaining our business on a day-to-day basis within the building, we've instituted all of the normal social distancing measures, staying 6 feet apart, having mask requirements, limiting vendors into the corporate facilities, putting our manufacturing associates on staggered shifts to limit the bringing together in common areas like lunch rooms and break areas. We disinfect the entire facility from top to bottom four times a day, as well as we've put extra care into disinfecting all of our products as they are being shipped out of the building and ultimately arriving at our customers. So safety is the #1 priority. In terms of meeting the demands and the needs of the markets in this changing time, we've created more remote learning solutions. So we've partnered with universities, healthcare systems and governments around the world to create simulation training solutions that can be delivered digitally online so that healthcare professionals can continue to get certified and trained so that they are ready and prepared to meet the challenges of this pandemic. The last thing that we've done is that we've ramped up the production of our life-saving solutions, specifically our CPR solutions, our intubation heads, as well as our patient communication simulators that aid healthcare professionals in diagnosing COVID-19 during this crisis. Zach: And, you know, I'm hearing the parameters and the measures that you're taking. I'm curious, with that in mind, and as we look at--you know, folks are saying that this may be going on until, like, next year. You know, when you look at the next 18 months, what are you most excited about with Nasco?Ken: Yeah. I'm really excited about our ability to be able to take training from the classroom and take it into the home. With our digital remote learning solutions, I think that we have the ability to really help healthcare and first responders to be ready to 1. navigate through this crisis as well as be better prepared in the future. As well, we are ramping up our production of COVID-19 simulation solutions so that... and I shouldn't say just COVID-19 simulation solutions, Zach, but pandemic response simulation solutions so that once we conquer this pandemic and we use these solutions, we'll be much better prepared for those in the future. I think if there's one thing that we learned from the COVID-19 crisis is that we were not ready. We were not prepared as a nation or as a globe, and so I believe that our local, state and federal government leaders have clearly identified how woefully unprepared we were. So at Nasco Healthcare, our aim and our goal is to ensure that everyone be ready, and so we are building those life-saving solutions that help first responders and healthcare professionals be ready when the time comes. So whether it be to diagnose a patient during this crisis, whether it be to train a respiratory specialist on how to put someone on a ventilator, or to be able to resuscitate a patient that's in cardiac arrest that's right by the bedside or on the side of a car accident. All of these solutions we believe we will be coming forward with over the next 12-18 months that show a very bright future for Nasco Healthcare, and we ultimately hope to help the community be better prepared in the future. Zach: So before we let you go, what advice do you have to the marginalized professionals, especially now, in the workplace?Ken: Yeah. Well, I'm one of those marginalized professionals in the workplace, and so the first thing I would recommend is to believe in yourself. Never allow anyone to steal your confidence. That's #1. Have an unwavering belief in yourself. Two, commit yourself to excellence. Do the absolute best you can do at whatever you are doing. My mom taught me at a very young age that if you're gonna clean a bathtub or clean a toilet, scrub it until it shines, you know? Give it your best. Give it your all. Third is to build your network, right? Find individuals that you believe that you can learn from and ask questions. Be inquisitive. And last but not least is you've got to get up every day, right? You've got to get up every day and commit yourself to doing all that you can to grow. I think that there's one thing that I want the marginalized associate to remember, and one of my leaders taught me this a few years back in my career, Linda [?], one of my fondest leaders in my career, and what Linda told me was, "Ken, you might feel like you've got your back against the wall and there's only one way out of this situation, but remember, there are hundreds of options. You just have to down-select to the option that you think is most attractive for you." So Zach, for that marginalized associate, the last thing I'd want them to remember is that you've got many, many options to succeed. Don't believe there's only one path to your success. But choose a path and then get on that road, and if you find yourself deviating, course-correct, but stay focused, stay committed, continue to believe in yourself and I'm confident that you will achieve your goals and your aims. Chase your dreams. Never give up.Zach: You know, Ken, I gotta tell you, I appreciate your energy, man. Before we let you go, any shout-outs?Ken: I would just like to thank you, Zach, for allowing me the opportunity to be a part of this podcast. I'd like to thank Tina Chang and the pioneering collective for the work in which they do on my behalf, and I would just like to thank all of my friends and family who have supported me throughout my career that have allowed me to get to where I am now. I would just pray that everyone stay safe and stay healthy, and I'm wishing all of you and your families, you know, positivity as you navigate through this COVID-19 pandemic.Zach: All right, Ken. Thank you so much. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. We do this every single Tuesday. Make sure you check us out. We're all over Barack Obama's internet, okay? So if you type in Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod and on Instagram @LivingCorporate. Until next time, you've been talking to Ken Miller, CEO of Nasco--CEO and president of Nasco Healthcare. Peace.

Zach welcomes Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. back to the podcast to talk about the concept of centering Black experiences. She and Zach discuss the tremendous impact of enduring continuous emotional labor and implore any and all aspiring allies and/or white executives to compensate Black people when they're asked to speak about their feelings, and Dr. Gassam also shares a bit about both her podcast and new book, both titled "Dirty Diversity" - check the show notes if you'd like to find out more!Learn more about (and buy!) Dr. Gassam's book "Dirty Diversity" on Amazon or Audible.Interested in the Dirty Diversity podcast? Check it out on her website.Read Dr. Gassam's "Dear Companies: Your BLM Posts Are Cute But We Want To See Policy Change" piece on Forbes.Connect with Dr. Gassam on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know, you know what we do. We have real talk in a corporate world, and we do that by centering marginalized voices so that we can actually amplify and center marginalized experiences at work, right? And so we're having these conversations with thought leaders, with educators, with writers, with executives, with entrepreneurs and social influencers and activists and elected officials - anybody, really - all around, again, centering and amplifying the most marginalized voices in the workplace, and so today we have a returning guest - frankly, a friend of the show, you know what I mean? Dr. Janice Gassam. Dr. Janice Gassam is an educator, public speaker, a consultant, and a senior contributor with Forbes. Dr. Gassam, how's it going?Dr. Gassam: It is going well. Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate you amplifying my voice and consistently amplifying my work. I love that we, like, you know, have built this support system, and I think that's so important, that we are, as quote-unquote marginalized people, we're supporting each other.Zach: Well, I mean, it's not--you make it very easy. You do great work, and your work really is what needs to be centered and focused on right now. I'm really curious, you know, as white folks are apparently learning what racism is for the first time, how have your--what does it look like in your field? Like, are you getting more requests right now? I know last time you were on the podcast we talked about the fact that a lot of folks would ask you not to talk about race. You know, what does it look like when you have clients reach out to you with requests?Dr. Gassam: Wow, that's a great question, and things have blown up and have exploded as far as I've been getting so many requests for racial equity workshops, and that's--you know, I'm partial to those workshops. Those are my favorite, but it's just so ironic because even, you know, less than a year or so ago I would have these discovery calls with clients, you know, who want me to come in and do a workshop or a training, and they have specifically said, "Do not talk about white privilege. Do not talk about race." They preferred me talking about the safe subjects like emotional intelligence, which I'm fine with talking about that, but I think that it's limiting in that if you're not willing to engage in the conversation nothing is going to change. So I'm very--I'm cautiously optimistic, and I hope that the momentum is still here after the summer is over. And I try to impress upon these leaders that, like, one workshop is not gonna change anything. Whether it's me or somebody else, you need to be bringing people in to facilitate to these continuous conversations. I think that that is really important, and people seem like they're starting to get it, so, you know, I'm just excited about this moment in time right now. I've never been busy like this before since my career started. So I think it's an exciting moment, and I'm trying to take advantage of it.Zach: And so let's talk about that. So, like, you know, again, in the past people would say, "Don't talk about white privilege, don't talk about Black experiences, Black female experiences. Talk about gender, but don't intersect that at all with ethnicity (or) race." What does it look like now when people hit you up? Like, what are they actually saying?Dr. Gassam: So, you know, I get emails primarily, and they're like, "Hey, my company wants to--" And what's funny, Zach, is that, like, there's such a sense of urgency now, you know? These same companies that--I'm gonna be [?]. I'm gonna keep it 100,000% real. Some of the same companies that didn't have money once COVID hit magically found the budget. You know, I had things lined up. And I get it, you know? They came back to me in March and April and said, "We don't have the budget." Cool. So now in June y'all found the budget, I guess. You know? Which I'm like, "Obviously you're realizing diversity, equity and inclusion is a priority." So it's usually--you know, the requests come in the form of an email. I appreciate that people have really been sharing my content on social media. So people often find me either through LinkedIn or through Instagram and they say, "Hey, I saw you talk about race, and we need this at our company. So when can you find a time to speak? How much do you charge for a workshop? What do your workshops entail?" So that's pretty much what it seems like, but with some of these requests it seems like there's such a sense of urgency, and that worries me a little bit because I think that it's not, like, a quick Band-Aid. You know, I'm happy to do the workshop. I've been doing these workshops. I've done many workshops, and I already know the structure and everything. However, I think that you have to have long-term objectives, and I don't know if a lot of these organizations have long-term objectives. It just seems like they want to do something so it looks like they're not doing nothing.Zach: Right, right. What is concerning about that, anxiety-inducing for me transparently, right, is it's very reactionary, and it reminds me of Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail. Like, that portion where he talks about the white moderate and, like, how they're more concerned about false peace [than] with an absence of justice. And so even now in this moment I'm like, "Okay, are y'all just trying to mobilize something really quick just to say that y'all did something so that you don't have uprisings within your companies, or are you really looking to create equitable and inclusive working environments, not just for the next couple of days but for, like, the foreseeable future as your company moves forward in this new normal?" Like, that to me continues to be, like, my ongoing question. I mean, I've had people reach out talking about, "Can you come in and do some unconscious bias?" No.Dr. Gassam: And that is the worst. I don't think unconscious bias trainings are trash by any means. I think that most companies are not doing them effectively. That's, like, a nice way to say it, 'cause I think unconscious bias training doesn't do a lot. "Hey, I go through this training and I find out I have a bias against Black people." You might take an [?] association test and see, "Hey, I have a bias toward or against women, so what do I do now?" It's like, "Cool, now I recognize my biases," but if there's systems in the organization that allow bias to persist, it doesn't matter that now I know how to not say micro-aggressive statements, because there's, like, bias entrenched and baked into the fabric of the company. Like, in the way that they hire employees, that they're using a referral--many of these consulting companies, it's all referrals, it's all Jim knows Bob who knows John, and that's how you get jobs. It's primarily who you know and not what you know, and I think that there is benefits to referral hiring programs and systems, but I think that the way they're currently being done is just, like, creating this echo chamber of the same types of people. So I always encourage organizations to look at their systems and say, like, "Are Black people being promoted at the same rates as other people?" Because it's cool for you to say, "Look, no, no, no, we have a lot of Black people," but they're all in lower-level positions in the organization, but are they in senior-level positions, and if they are, how long are they staying? Because a lot of these tech companies, I love that they're being transparent and putting out these diversity reports, but they're not telling us how many of those Black people or those Latinx people or those women are staying in those roles, 'cause they're like, "Look, 13% of our population is Black [?]. Yay! That went up 1% from last year. Yay!" Like, but it's like, are those the same Black people, or did you just hire a bunch of new ones, and then those same ones with quit next--you know? So I think, like, looking at why there's this revolving door, particularly of Black people, you know, like, in the tech industry and all of these industries. The fact of the matter is that, like, Black people, a lot of us are not staying in companies, and part of the reason--a large part I would say--is because of the hostile work environments that we're working in. Zach: 100%. I mean, so Living Corporate, we've put out a couple of whitepapers, but, like, there's a few different reports, but they're, like, very rare, that talk about, like, turnover percentages. So I've yet to see anything that explicitly says "The turnover for this group is this." I've seen, and we've cited, sources that'll talk about the fact that Black and brown turnover is, like, two or three times higher than their white counterparts, but you're right. Like, there's no annual reporting that shows, "Hey, you know, our Black employees are four times more likely to leave within their first two years than their white counterparts." Like, that's not anything--those rates are never discussed. But you're absolutely right.Dr. Gassam: I think it's important, I mean, because these companies tout that they're so diverse, and I think that that's something important, that not just--we focus so much on the diversity piece. That is important to say, "Hey, look, we actually have diverse representation," but also, like, are they staying? Because if you're using stock images with Black people that look diverse that make your company look diverse but then I get there and I'm like, "Hm." I'm, like, the only Black person. That's, like, false advertising, and there's a lot of that going around, you know? I know the new buzzword is, like, performative allyship, and there's a lot of that going around with a lot of different companies that shall rename nameless, but yeah, I'm glad to see people are really calling them out, these companies out, and saying, "You posted Black Lives Matter, but you asked us not to wear Black Lives Matter stuff." Or "You have no Black people in senior positions," or "You have a hostile work environment where Black people don't feel comfortable." So, like, it's cute to--I wrote an article, like, "It's cute to post Black Lives Matter, but we want to see, like, policy changes." That's nice and fine and dandy, and I appreciate your statement because, you know, that's better than your silence, but I want to see more, and I'm glad that people are demanding more of their company.Zach: I wonder... I still don't think that organizations--and your piece was incredible, and we're gonna make sure that we link it in the show notes for those who didn't see it, but what I don't think organizations understand is that, like, if they come out here really loud externally about all these things they're gonna do to combat racism and inequity and things of that nature, but then, like, internally their policies and their cultures, their practices, their behaviors don't change, like, that's going to create more resistance, higher turnover, higher disengagement, than they had in the first place.Dr. Gassam: Mm-hmm, and as an employee, if I worked in that company, I would just be looking like, "Okay, y'all are, like, not really about that life." And I'm not about, like, exposing the company that I work for unless I feel like I've been completely mistreated--and I've definitely felt like that in workplaces, but my industry is very small, so I just silently exit a company, and I might speak of it but not give specifics and names and things like that. But I think that you're opening your company up to that type of negative publicity from employees if you're not, like, authentic in the things that you do, and I mentioned this before in a few speaking engagements I've done, but I have a friend that works at a very well-known consulting firm. She's been there for four years, and she said that--she belongs to a marginalized group. She's considered brown, and she said that since--her company has a diverse referral program, but she said since she's been working at the company for the last four years, they've never hired anyone from that diverse referral program. But it's just, like--I call it cosmetic diversity, where you have something in place just to look like you're doing something, look like you're actually about that life that a lot of these companies are not about [that life]. So I think that that's just not a good look. If you're gonna like the talk, you have to also be doing things that show that you're actually putting your words and your intentions into action.Zach: I agree. And to your point around, like, negative press or attention, it's--I think also, and all of this generational, because even I--you know, as someone... I'm 30, right? So, like, I'm not young-young, but I'm not older. I'm not old. So I think I probably still don't fully appreciate how easy it is--like, for something to go viral, especially as something negative, but it's, like, really, really easy. Like, there's so many avenues and mechanisms to, like, share your voice now, and I just don't know if organizations appreciate that AND the fact that, you know, doing that today, like, airing things out, putting people on blast, is not an automatic career ender like it might have been, like, five or six years ago. Like, if you put somebody on blast now, like, that doesn't mean that your career is over. It means you just--like, you may be actually heralded as a hero depending on how you do it, right? Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and just like a lot of these racists who say and do things after a year or so and the public forgets and they're able to go and get jobs, the same I think could be said for employees that put their companies on blast, because so many things are happening in our lives that we forget. Like, I don't remember all of these people's names. Are we still gonna remember Amy Cooper? Well, I guess there's a law now with her name, but are we gonna remember all of the Barbecue Beckys? Like, what their actual names are? Probably not. So I do think that you're absolutely right in that companies I don't think quite appreciate and understand how easy it is for people to get information out and just share their story and just share, "This company has a crappy environment." And you actually shared with me last year that internal memo, that Medium article, that those Facebook, those Black--I believe they were all Black, or some were Latinx--Facebook employees wrote about the toxic work culture and, you know, there's so many avenues to write anonymous memos and things like that about your company, and so that's not the type of press and reputation that you want. So I'm really happy that people are like, "We need to change. We are really--" Like, I've been getting requests, Zach, from, like, the most fascinating, like, industries that I never even expected, like, this person is reaching out and that person is reaching out. A fitness company reached out to me and said that they wanted me to do a webinar. A jewelry company reached out to me, and I was just like, "Wow." So, like, it's every industry. It's industry-wide. So, you know, I think that has really been interesting to me, that everyone is waking up and saying, "Whatever industry we're in, this is a problem that is, like, not specific to our industry. Everyone is having these issues and needs to figure out how we create an environment that is inclusive to Black people specifically," because I think that a lot of times the conversation gets watered down and we talk about other groups but we don't focus specifically on Black people and Black liberation and things like that, and I think that that's a huge part of the reason we're here, that we have more ease with talking about LGBTQ+ issues or gender issues than we do racial issues.Zach: You're absolutely right, and I think a large reason for that is because white people can be women and white people can be gay, but white people can't be Black. So it's like what does it look like to really shift and, like, have authentic conversations that center marginalized people? And it's interesting. I was talking to some colleagues a little while ago and was talking about the concept of, like, decentering whiteness, and they were like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "A large way that we center whiteness is just in our language, right?" Like, a lot of the terms and things that we've created, we create those terms to avoid Blackness and to avoid the reality of harm. So it's like, we'll have these conversations and we'll talk about--you know, we'll say bias when it's like--and bias is, it fits technically, but what you're also talking about is, like, white supremacy or just racism, right? Like, we're not talking about--this isn't, like--like, bias softens it sometimes. In certain ways, bias softens it in the same way that, like, you know, it's not like I have a bias towards Coca-Cola versus RC Cola. Like, no, I genuinely think this person is less than me and, by relation, because of that, I treat this person differently. Like, that's different. And, you know, even--yeah, so anyway, not to go on a rant. So I do think this segues well though into your podcast, Dirty Diversity.Dr. Gassam: Yes. Yeah, so I actually started the podcast during Black History Month, and it was important for me to not only start it during Black History Month, but, like, the first episode was ironically, like, why your Black employees are leaving, because I don't think that we're talking about these things, and I think that we conflate people [of color?] with Black people, and we lump everyone together, I think for the sake of, like, conversation, it's easier to just say "Black and brown people," and it is, because a lot of these--your closeness to Blackness will impact your experiences, you know? And there's Latinx people who are stopped as much as us when they're driving, who experience racism just like us and things like that. So, you know, I think it's easy to say that, but I think it's important to put a particular focus on the unique experiences of Black people, and I don't think we do that enough, and when I'm asked to do these trainings there isn't a focus on--when that is the problem, Zach, it's that you're not able to retain Black employees. They're leaving, but you want me to come in and do inclusion training. Your problem is not inclusion. The problem is you're not creating an environment where Black people feel like they're valued and they matter, so we need to focus on that specific problem, and I think that watering it down is what we've been doing for so long, and that hasn't produced positive results or changes, so we have to just be bold and call it out for what it is. And I'm so excited, because I feel like I have been censoring myself--I censor myself on social media a lot because my colleagues follow me, so I can't be like, "White supremacy--" I can't be using that language a lot because, you know, my colleagues [?] me and all of these things, and I know in my field that's gonna get you--that sort of thing is not gonna sit well with... but now I feel like I can say what I really want to say, especially in the workshops, and I think that that's gonna make people [uncomfortable,] but for me, my goal isn't to make people feel happy. My goal is to help you change and help you create better organizations, and the way to do that is I'm gonna have to say things that are uncomfortable and you're gonna have to evaluate your role and how you've contributed to inequitable systems and oppression and things like that. And for a lot of people this is the first time that they've ever taken a look in the mirror, and just with speaking with different white women, they've said--and they're millennials, you know? Like, they're young, and they're like, "This is the first time I've really taken an honest look at myself, and even though I have Black friends and, you know, I dated a Black guy, you know, maybe I have white supremacist views," and it's like, "Yes, you do." Every white person who's born and raised in the U.S. have internalized white supremacist views, and a lot of it is just baked into our American fabric, so it's, like, recognizing that and using your privilege and your power to impact change.Zach: And, you know, I think that really leads us well into the book that you recently--I think by the time this airs it'll be published, so, like, let's talk about the book.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, and thank you again for the opportunity to just share my work with your audience. You know, I was--it was important to create the book, but now I'm already [thinking about] book #2 and how it needs to focus specifically on race. So I wrote "Dirty Diversity" as, like, a very simple, practical guide [for] implementable ways that you can create more inclusion and equity into your workplace. The thing that I've learned in the years that I've been--I've been in consulting now for, like, two years or so, and I've learned so much. When I started doing these diversity workshops, I knew nothing. I didn't know anyone personally that was close to me that did any sort of--I didn't know consultants like that, you know? Just people I went to school with who work at large consulting firms, but I didn't know independent consultants, so I had to figure a lot of things out on my own. I had to bump my head multiple times. So the book is written in three different sections, and the first section is for managers, and it's things that are so simple and easy to implement into your workplace you might say, "Why didn't we think about this?" Or "Why haven't we been doing this?" But it's simple ways to create more inclusion in your workplace. The next section is for people who do diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and things that I've learned from creating workshops and ways that you can improve the effectiveness of the workshops, but one of the things that I emphasize is that one workshop or one training is not gonna make a change. You have to encourage the organizational leaders to do multiple trainings and multiple workshops. And then the third section is written for employees and just, like, simple ways and simple things you can include in your workplace to create more inclusion as an employee, 'cause I get that question a lot where people say, "How do I get my manager to care about diversity? And how do I get my manager to--" And I think that it's not just get managers to care and to--it's understanding the value of what this can bring into your workplace, but there are things that you can do yourself. Like, you know, I talk about an employee book club, and that's something, like, super easy, and maybe petitioning your employee to sponsor an Audible membership--because everybody doesn't read. For me, most of my books I consume them now on Audible. So, like, if you have an Audible membership, you don't have an excuse now to say, "Oh, I didn't have time to read." You could, like, take a [?] minute walk and listen to a chapter of a book. It's very easy now to me to, like--for things as an employee that you can implement into your workplace. So I felt like this book was really necessary, and I didn't--I had no idea all of these events would be transpiring right now, so I feel like it's even more relevant. And there's so many--in the book I talk about some really simple things, low cost or no cost things, that you can implement to create more inclusion, and I think that there's a perception that you have to spend a lot of money--which I do think you should be adequately compensating your consultants that come in, and a lot of times people ask me to come in and they expect it to be free, so I think that is part of the problem, but there are things you can do, like having a panel in your workplace. That's something that is a really simple way to create inclusion that you probably didn't think about. Inviting someone like you, Zach, to come in to speak with employees on a panel just about equity and inclusion and different things like that is just, like, an event your company can host, and often times on panels people are donating time or, you know, giving up their time for free. So, like, there's so many simple ways. It doesn't have to be this, like, extravagant sort of, like, training program that could help you to create equity and inclusion. So that's pretty much, like, the goal. It's a simple read. It's, like, a little over 100 pages, and I think it's just filled with things that you can do and can easily implement into your workplace to create more equity and inclusion. I mean, I'm excited to--I've already got a copy, okay? So we're gonna--Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach.Zach: No, no, thank you, and so we're gonna make sure we put a link in the show notes for everybody to get a copy as well. And the book's title though--is the book's title "Dirty Diversity?"Dr. Gassam: Yes. So same title as the podcast. The reason I titled is "Dirty Diversity" is because diversity has definitely become a dirty word. People are not into having diversity trainings. There's a misconception about what diversity is, what it brings to an organization. There's still diversity resistance and pushback. So when you say, "We're gonna have a diversity training," people in their minds have an idea of what that is. There's a lot of research that indicates diversity trainings are not effective. So I really was kind of focused on, like, what are some things, in addition to workshops and trainings, that you can--what are some ways you can create more inclusion? Because I kind of resent the fact that--I've seen this meme going around, and I disagree--I think it's cute and it's funny, but it's like, "The revolution will not be in diversity and inclusion training," and I disagree with that. [both laugh] Have you seen that meme before? Zach: I have. I don't--I hear you though.Dr. Gassam: I was like--I don't agree fully. I think when done effectively workshops--if you're having workshops every month in addition to a multitude of other things like mentorship programs, I think they can be effective.Zach: I think authentic, intentional workshops paired with other systemic solutions are effective. I think most people when they think about these workshops, they're not talking about the type of work that you do or the type of work that, like, Dr. Erin Thomas at Upwork, that she does, thinking more about the--you know, the very white comfort-centered diversity of thought -type workshops. Those are not gonna lead us to no revolution, but I agree with you about, you know, intentional, intelligent, competent workshops along with other things are very effective.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, yeah, and that's--you know, that was my thought. You know, everybody's kind of--you know, and I try not to curse, but everyone's kind of, like, crapping on diversity and inclusion trainings, and I do think that in itself one training is not gonna change anything, but the problem is those companies don't even have ongoing trainings or workshops. They have one once a year if that. A lot of them have never had any sort of training, yet every year they have sexual harassment training, which I find to be interesting, you know? Zach: Well, it's typically to check a box, right, from, like, a legal perspective. Like, that's typically what they're doing so they can at least say, "Well, we do this, and we do it regularly," you know? It's not really about any type of behavioral change.Dr. Gassam: Exactly. Yeah, so it's like to check a box. So really, like, how to overcome this idea that diversity has become a dirty word. What are some really simple things? And I'm telling you, it's such a practical, simple--I'm not using any, like, jargon that you wouldn't be able to understand. It's very, like, a simple guide. You open it, you read it and say, "Oh, this is something, like, so simple. Why aren't we already doing this in our company?" But you'd be surprised. To me, like, something, like, a blind resume system. When people tell me they can't find Black candidates, can't find Black engineers, I'm like, "Do you have a blind resume system?" And they're like, "No, what's that?" And that to me is something that I think is so simple but a lot of people just don't know. So that's really, like, what the purpose of me writing this book was. Like, simple things that you think a lot of people know but they might not, and it's just, like, so simple to implement into your workplace. It's not complicated at all outside of just workshops that you can do to create more inclusion.Zach: Man, this has been super dope. What else do we need to talk about, Dr. Gassam? 'Cause I want to make sure I give you your space. So we talked about--Dr. Gassam: So much! Thank you. [both laugh] You know, there's so much. All of the performative allyship, all of the--Zach: Oh, yeah. Let's go in on that real quick actually. Yeah, no, this is good. So side note, y'all, for those who are kind of behind the scenes. Typically I send out, like, these very detailed questions before each podcast, but, you know, for people that like--you know, we kick it or, like, we kind of get each other's style or energy, we kind of freestyle. So this is actually a freestyle, y'all. That's why we're, like, actively trying to think about what we talk about next. We have a little bit more time. Dr. Gassam: And I really appreciate that, and we'll talk about how to support each other after we get into the performative allyship.Zach: Yo, let's do that. Okay, so this performative allyship stuff is crazy, right? Like, I'm so tired of these people--and you know what's really wild? It's like--what we don't talk about is, like, just... we don't talk about this enough I think just, like, culturally, the importance of authenticity, right? So, like, I've had people who have harmed me with their racist behaviors hit me up now talking about, "Hey, just thinking about you." Like, what are you talking about? Why are you talking to me, and why would the first thing when you reach out to me not about the harm that you caused, that you KNOW you caused? These are, like, [?], right? Like, these are things that, like, you gravely harmed me personally and professionally, right? It's not like you walked by, you touched my hair and said, "Oh, this is like my little pet lamb's hair back in my Meemaw's house." Like, no. This is "You harmed me." And so it's wild, like, that we have--how members of the majority... go ahead.Dr. Gassam: I know. It's just like--I'm getting a lot of people hitting me up, like, that are--you know those people that are in the periphery of your life? They're not in your life, but they're just, like, there watching from the--I get a lot of those, and there are people who have actively done things to prevent me from being successful, and they reach out to me, or on the other end people are asking of me, and I won't get into too many details, just, you know, to protect myself, but there are people who are actively asking things of me without consideration of the events that transpired. You're asking for projects from me and things like that, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not in a mental state--" And I've had to send emails like that where I'm like, "I'm not in the mental state to produce what you're asking me to produce because there are Black people being killed and slaughtered, videos," you know? And I just--and it's "Oh, my gosh! You're so right! I didn't even realize it! Oh, my gosh. Like, it's all because of Trump. This would have never happened if Obama was president!" [Zach sighs] And it's like... I mean, it did happen when Obama was president.Zach: It happened a lot [?] though.Dr. Gassam: I was just like... "Okay, but thanks." So I get those, where people are completely, like, oblivious to what's going on and what's happening and how maybe the Black [people] you know are impacted by this, so maybe I shouldn't be asking for X, Y and Z, and I've had to let people know, but I've also seen, yeah, like you said, people who have actively caused harm to you, "Hey, how are you?" Without any acknowledgement of what was done, what was said, your role in how you contributed. Lots of snakes in the grass.Zach: A lot of snakes in the grass! I think also just, like, the psychological--and, like, I don't even think, like, even just considering the additional mental and emotional toll you put on that other person when you do that. So, like, now, as the person who's receiving your random message after a year or after six months or however long, now I have to do the mental calculus if I'm gonna even gonna respond and then make a decision if I respond, "How vulnerable do I want to make myself in responding to you?" Knowing that if I respond to you and you get upset it could harm me even more. So it's just so... so that alone is, like, ugh, such a rant. Such a rant-worthy topic. I do think that it's, like, when we talk about allyship and--I just wonder, are people--I'm not curious about it. This is my belief. I don't believe that members of the majority have the capacity to, like, really deal with being explicitly anti-racist for more than, like... like, for a sustained amount of time, right? Like, you're already seeing on Twitter, people are getting burnt out. Like, "Ugh, I know that you guys are probably tired, but here are some tips that you can--" [Dr. Gassam laughs] "Make sure you drink your [?] tea."Dr. Gassam: You're absolutely right, and it's exhausting in that--and I know a lot of white people are confused, because in one breath we say, "You should be checking on your Black friends," but in another breath it's like we're getting binged and pinged and all of this, like, left and right, and then you have to keep having to revisit the conversation of, like, you know, "Why aren't you answering my text messages? I hit you up to check on you." 'Cause I don't want to keep talking about the same--like, I appreciate that you reached out. I don't--I'm not in the mental state. I want to go on a bike ride and just have the sun on my face and just not think about Black people being killed. I just want to listen to a podcast while riding a bike. Sometimes you just don't want to keep talking about, keep talking about it, and what I've found is that--it's interesting, companies want to give us space to talk about without asking us if this is something we want to take part in. A close friend of mine worked in a healthcare system, and she said her company was like, "Hey, can you be on this panel? It's all Black people talking about their families," and it's like, "I don't want--like, why do I gotta--you don't even--" Like, it's really like, "Hey, we want you to be part of this panel." "No, I don't want to." I had another friend who was asked to talk about white privilege, and she was like, "This isn't even my scope or my domain. I'm in PR. Why are you asking me to talk about white privilege? This isn't even, like--what, just because I'm a Black woman you want, "Oh, yeah, have her talk about--"" She was like, "What?" And I had to send out an email to somebody that asked me to a part of a panel, and I didn't want to be mean, but I was like, "When you're asking me to regurgitate and keep repeating why I feel bad as a Black person living in America, like, you should be paying me," you know what I'm saying? And I know that sounds like--it's not a matter of being all about the money, but it's a matter of, like, this is emotional labor, and this takes an emotional toll on me to be on 80 million eleven panels talking about why, what I feel as a Black person and all of this, and it's just like--the idea of paying a Black person doesn't often cross these people's minds who are organizing these events, and I'm just like--at this point, like, my mind [?] so busy with these workshops--and also I teach as well, so it's like with teaching and doing the workshops and promoting the book, like, I'm not gonna just be on a panel talking about how sad I am and my experiences as a Black person. There's so many thinkpieces online with people giving this information to you already. You don't need me on a panel to talk about what it feels like to be Black. And I hope I'm not being too raw, but it's just that's how I've been feeling lately.Zach: No, you're not being too raw at all. I see where you're going and I will meet you there. So look, folks who are asking--please stop asking us to talk about our feelings for free. I need y'all to stop. Many of you listen to the podcast, right? And, like, when I say you I mean aspiring allies and white executives. Stop. Now, look, especially--like, not to be classist, but especially don't be asking a bunch of degreed people to be doing it. Like, that's crazy. You have people out here who have whole doctorates in sociology and psychology and you're asking them to come on these panels for free. It's like, "No." Like, "I have the Western colonized expertise from an actual [?] institution, and couple that with the expertise of my lived experience, when you ask me for my time, I need you to pay me. Don't even ask." I've had people ask me for my time to do things and I'm like, "First of all, do you understand how much--" Like, I'm gonna feel drained after this, because I'm gonna talk about all these things and no one's gonna come back to me with, like, any tangible resources or support. It's just gonna be me, like, giving out.Dr. Gassam: And it's like--you have a podcast where you talk about all these things. You invite people to talk. You have--and then it's, like, on top of that you write about these things, on top of that you work full-time, on top of that you're a father and you have a wife. It's just, like, y'all gotta think about all of these things. It's like, "Hey, can you explain to me, like--" No, I can't. I'm sorry.Zach: No, I can't. And shameless plug, like, Living Corporate, it's not like we're just, like, a random podcast. Like, you can go on our website and type in anything and a bunch of stuff will pop up. Like, we have a whole database, so you can educate yourself, and, like, there's other free resources. I think it's so inappropriate during this time, like, going back to what you said earlier about organizations and, like, predominantly white leadership who have, like, either intentionally or unintentionally been the cause for people to exit their places of work are now, like, sending out these emails with a bunch of different options to have quote-unquote "real talk sessions," and, like, who made you a luminary on the subject one, but then two, like, why do you just presume that I even want to do this? But the challenge, Dr. Gassam, is, like, there's also the reality--which we don't talk about enough, and, like, shout-out to Brittany J. Harris of The Winters Group. I see you. She talked about it, like, explicitly--this was some months ago--about the fact that, like, power is, like, the silent "P" in DE&I, right? It's like--we don't talk about the fact that, like, yo, if a senior executive sends out something to talk, have one of these conversations, there's gonna be a certain percentage of marginalized people who feel pressured to join it simply because the person who sent out the invite is in power, right? Like, there's a power dynamic that we don't want to address, and also when you ask people to do things--like, nine times out of ten the Black and brown folks you ask to do this type of work or, like, to randomly jump in this and it's not even their expertise, they're gonna feel pressured to say yes because you're in charge, and then when they show up to do whatever you want them to talk about, white privilege, their own lived experience, whatever, they're going to be pressured to not be as honest as they would even like to be because they know that they might get fired or they may be opportunities withheld from them if they say the wrong thing.Dr. Gassam: Exactly, exactly, and I'm actually doing a workshop tomorrow, and the two individuals who reached out to me to do the workshop, they had told me they don't want to be part of the facilitation because there are--there's 500 people who are a part of this workshop, and they're worried because in their industry it's, of course, not what you know it's who you know, and I sympathized with them 100,000% because I'm still--you know, I work in an institution, and I can't fully say--I can't go out and jump on a limb and say everything that I would want to say because of that power piece and because I know that there's still many people who are uncomfortable when you're speaking the truth and when you're trying to--so it's like you can only say but so much, and unfortunately it's like--we need the raw, and we need it to the point, and I'm glad people are more open to that right now, but it's still, like, a concern for us and for people who do this work and, you know, even you as a--not only as an employee but as someone in the podcast space, I'm sure there's topics that you can venture into but not too, too much because you don't--Zach: Oh, Dr. Gassam. Ooooh, bay-bay. [laughs]Dr. Gassam: You know? 'Cause it's like, "I know my audience." You know, there's stuff--I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you want to say but you just--one day [I'ma?] have a tell-all.Zach: Listen, one day--no, I literally tweeted this the other day, I said, "One day I'ma let these @s fly." Like, I'ma really talk to y'all. But no, you're absolutely right, the power dynamic, it dictates, like, literally everything. So, like, you know, I talk differently now because I work--I have a 9-to-5 job. Like, the day that I do Living Corporate full-time, I'm still not gonna be able to talk as free because I'm gonna have clients, and my clients need to know and respect the fact that, you know, I won't air them out one day, you know what I mean? So, like, the only time that I think you ever really hear, like, Black people speak the truth, like, unabashed truth is when they have a lot of money, right? So you think about--you know, you think about, like, the Will Smiths and Kevin Harts and Dave Chappelles and Eddie Murphys of the world, the people who just--or people who just don't care at all, and those voices are needed, but it's just, like, I can't shame people for not being 100,000% raw all of the time when, like, our survival is predicated on some degree of white comfort. It just is. We can't just say--we can't speak the truth like we want to. Like, I believe I speak the truth pretty consistently, don't get me wrong, but there are certainly--like, I'm halfway joking, but there are things that I would like to be much more explicit about, but I can't, you know? Especially [because] I have a daughter, you know what I mean? You have to be careful. So let's talk about this. Let's talk about supporting each other during this time. So we're talking about, like, the emotional labor that we sometimes get pressured into performing or just the increased emotional labor during this time, but also just the general amount of labor just in being Black and brown in majority white spaces. When you asked or when you kind of suggested talking about supporting one another, like, what comes to mind for you?Dr. Gassam: So many things. You know, I think that besides the Candice Owens and some of these people out here that maybe don't [?]--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Please don't ever say her name again. Nope.Dr. Gassam: [laughing] I'm sorry. Some of these people, you know, these people, I think for the most part we got us, and the community that we're building and that we've built and the support that I feel from my fellow Black people just makes me really proud to be Black, and I have to say that in a lot of the--in April I was offering these complimentary workshops because I was transitioning from in-person trainings and workshops to online and I was acclimating and getting myself used to Zoom. So I was like, "You know, if your company wants a complimentary workshop just reach out." And let me tell you, I did 7 complementary workshops that month, and all of the people that reached out to me were Black women. I love that Black women are always, always at the forefront of putting other--we're always... I feel like we have such big hearts and we're always trying to, like, save the world, and people need to listen to us more, but I just think that in a moment like this, the support and the camaraderie that I'm seeing among Black people but particularly among Black women is just what, like, warms my heart and reminds me why, despite all of the B.S. and what we're going through, I'm so proud to be a Black person and to be a Black woman. So I think that just supporting each other, supporting Black businesses and things like that, just reaching out to your Black friends, I think--one of the many things that I love about us is, like, we're gonna have fun and find entertainment in anything, and I've been like--we've been crying a lot, but I just find that we just make anything into, like, something funny, into a joke. Like, after the Verzuz of Beenie Man and Bounty Killer, I was just, like, so entertained by the memes and the gifs, and I was just like, "I love us." Like, we are just so funny, and we're just like--so that's, I think, like, the fact that us coming together and just laughing and doing things that bring us joy and just, you know, the community I think right now is we're building that and we're creating these groups, and so I think that we should all be doing one thing that makes us feel joy, and whether that's, like, meeting up with a friend, grabbing some ice cream, riding a bike, I've been trying to do that more and more. And just, like, [supporting] each other. I have friends that reach out to me and say, "Hey, I want to bring you into my company," and it's like, just that support of, like, "I see you, I see the work that you're doing and I'm trying to put you on," is I think what we need more of and what I've been seeing a lot, and I just love that.Zach: Man, I love it too, and, you know, with that being said, if you haven't yet, make sure that you get a copy of "Dirty Diversity," Dr. Gassam's--it's your first published book, right?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. Yes, my very first published book, so I'm awaiting--it is gonna be available Juneteenth, on June 19th, and both the e-book and the paperback will be available on Amazon, but I'm also awaiting Audible approval because I recorded the audiobook, so I'm just waiting on that process now. Hopefully it'll all be good by June 19th, but I think by the time this episode drops it'll be available via Audible as well.Zach: Well, that's dope, and yeah, we'll make sure that we signal boost any of the promotions and advertising for it on Juneteenth, and then we'll also make sure that y'all check out Dr. Gassam's Dirty Diversity podcast. So Dr. Gassam, you know what I'm saying, she's way more fancy than me, so her guests--I mean, we have great guests, don't get me wrong. We have amazing guests, so let me not play, but I'm just saying, like, she's--Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you guys have amazing, amazing guests.Zach: We have dope guests, but I'm saying your guests are nothing to sniff at, you know what I'm saying? So make sure y'all check out Dr. Gassam, you know?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate it. Thank you for amplifying our voices and trying to use our platform to put more of us on. I think that that's an inspiration to me, and that's what I think we should all be doing, using our platforms and our power to put other people on, you know, other, our people on. But thank you so much, Zach, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend.Zach: Yo, same to you. Listen, y'all, this has been Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having these conversations weekly. So again, this might be your first time listening to Living Corporate, so as a reminder or as an FYI, we have Real Talk Tuesdays--that's when we have these, like, you know, 1-on-1 conversations. We then have Tristan's Tips on Thursdays, and then we have The Link Up with Latesha or See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger on Saturdays. Like, those kind of interchange, and so we have essentially three different series a week, so make sure you reach out. We're all over Beyonce's internet, you know? Just type in Living Corporate, we're gonna pop up. And then yeah, you've been listening to Dr. Janice Gassam, public speaker, entrepreneur, educator, consultant, podcaster, and writer of "Dirty Diversity." That's also the podcast. Make sure y'all check out all the links in the show notes. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with Mary-Frances Winters, the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., about black equity and power. Mary-Frances shares some of the top things she believes that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts and explains her perspective on why chief inclusion/people/culture officers are typically white folks. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about The Winters Group!Connect with Mary-Frances on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2Bs8pZBhttps://bit.ly/2ZXoMYlhttps://bit.ly/3csD9qbLearn more about The Winters Group on their website. http://bit.ly/33pqotqCheck out the Inclusion Solution blog.https://bit.ly/2yX2quXYou can connect with The Winters Group on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:http://bit.ly/2WrDjtghttp://bit.ly/3d69LYhhttps://bit.ly/2XUy6t7Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, it's Tuesday. The day of this recording is May 4th, so May the 4th be with you. We have incredible guests every single time we come on, and today is no different, because what we're trying to do is what we always do, right? Which is center and amplify marginalized voices in the workplace. Now, I would like to think Living Corporate is a little bit unique in that we're having these conversations, but not only are we having these conversations that are centering marginalized voices, but we're having these conversations with marginalized identity groups, right? So a lot of times when you think about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, it's folks who don't look like me using fairly esoteric, like, heady language to describe things that they really don't experience, right? Like, not to put too fine a point on it. Just look... I'm just gonna be honest, right? Just gonna be a straight shooter, okay? And I'm proud of the fact that we've been able to have incredible guests that have not only the lived experience but have the practical knowledge and expertise to talk about real subjects, and so that's why our tagline for Living Corporate is real talk for a corporate world. Now, look, some of y'all have been listening to us and been rocking with us for a while, but every episode is somebody's first episode, so I just want to make sure I kind of level set a little bit. So with all that being said, I'm really excited to have our guest today, Mary-Frances Winters. Mary-Frances Winters is the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., a global organization development and diversity and inclusion consulting firm with over 35 years--count 'em, y'all, 35... more than I've been alive--more than 35 years of experience. She truly believes that diversity and inclusion work is her “passion and calling.” She's been dubbed a thought leader in the field for the past three decades and has impacted over hundreds of organizations and thousands of individuals with her thought-provoking messages, and her approach to diversity and inclusion. Ms. Winters is a master strategist with experience in strategic planning, change management, diversity, organization development, training and facilitation, systems thinking--yo, shout-out to systems thinking--and qualitative and quantitative research methods, and she has extensive experience in working with senior leadership teams to drive organizational change. My goodness, gracious. With all that being said, Mary-Frances, welcome to the show.Mary-Frances: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. You're definitely dating me, but that's all right. I'll take it. [laughing]Zach: I apologize. I wasn't trying to date you. I was trying to speak to the depth and breadth of the work that you've been doing, 'cause I think a lot of times it's easy, you know--like, pausing on, just, like, this conversation, but kind of, like, thinking about generational tensions, right? So I think there's, like, a lot of frustrations sometimes with folks who--like, millennials, you know, folks, like, in their early 30s or even, like, mid-20s to late-20s crowd who just think that, like, all of these frustrations that we're seeing now are new, right, but there have been folks who have built foundations before us that allow us to actually move forward, so it's just incredible that you've been in this space and doing this for a significant amount of time. I don't believe that should be taken lightly at all.Mary-Frances: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I accept it with honor and respect, so thank you so much.Zach: Thank you so much. So how are you doing during this time? Like I said, we're recording this on May 4th. How are you and your loved ones?Mary-Frances: We're well, we're well. We're doing well. You know, it is unprecedented times. It's very, very difficult times for the world, but, you know, we're doing well, and thank you for asking.Zach: So let's get right into it. Diversity, equity and inclusion work is about marginalized identities, yet the loudest voices in this space tend to be those of the majority, right? So, like, when you think about these big, big organizations and you look at, like, the chief inclusion officer or the chief people officer or the chief culture officer, they're typically white folks. Why do you think that is?Mary-Frances: Well, I don't think that the dominant group sees diversity and inclusion as being about marginalized folks. They see it as being about everybody. "We have to include everybody," and so some of what my frustration has been, as you mentioned, 35 years, and so when we used to talk about it, you know, in the days of affirmative action, they were protected groups, right? So the initiatives were targeted towards those protected groups. When we started to talk about it as being diversity, then it broadened and everybody got included in diversity, and the group that gets least talked about now are black folks, because they don't want to talk about black people. So I don't think that the dominant group that controls the narrative, I don't think that they see it about being about marginalized identities only, right? And so the focus may or may not be there, you know, depending, and so we did a session for a client not too long ago to talk about the relevancy of white men in the organization. So, you know, you've got to be inclusive of white men. [both laughing] Yeah, so that's why I think--you asked me why I think that is? That's why I think that is, yeah. Because in the corporate world, we don't even use the word "marginalized identities." So it's not a new term in sociology, but let me tell you, 35 years in this business, it's a new term in the corporate world. It's starting to be used, and I think it is because of the influence of the millennials. We've been doing some work in some organizations that, you know, normally--some of these older, traditional organizations have been around 150 years and still got baby boomers at the helm, right? Some of these other organizations have been around 15, 20 years, they've got a lot of millennials at the helm. Those organizations are using this language, the social justice language. The traditional organizations? Not so much.Zach: [laughs] So one, thank you. I'm really curious--that really is a good segue into the next question I have for you about just you showing up doing this work as a black woman, and not to, like--again, not to age you, we're talking about the fact that--[Mary-Frances laughs] It's not like you're a black woman who just graduated from college and, you know, you're in this space, or you just finished B school, like, you're someone who has seen this space grow and evolve and change and shift and permutate, you know, various times over over the past three and a half decades, and so I'm curious, like, what does it look like for you to operate in this space, and then specifically going into the example that you just provided, how do you respond to narratives like that? That, you know, white men need to feel just as included as black men or other marginalized groups?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So as a black woman in this work, a cisgender heterosexual black woman, baby boomer, there are different ways it impacts me. So one way that it impacts me is "Oh, yeah, let's get Mary-Frances because she can bring the voice of black folks." Um, no. Mary-Frances brings her voice, not all black folks, right? That's one way. This other way is, "Gee, we really can't hire The Winters Group to do this--" This is a black person talking now. "Because you're black and I'm black, and, you know, the optics of it, it looks like we might be giving you, you know, preferential treatment." The third way is when I stand in front of a group, to the question about, you know, white men, I do--if my question is gonna get across, I do in some ways have to disarm white men, because they're gonna--they see me coming in with my sister locks and, you know, "This black woman is gonna come in and she's gonna tell us, you know, how racist we are. She's gonna make us feel bad," and so what I've learned over the years is that you've gotta get them to like you first. No matter what they've gotta like you, right? And they have to think that the message resonates. So I learned the language. I learned the language of the organization. I connect my message to whatever their business plan is, whatever their business strategy is. You know, I connect it to that, because, you know, you're already coming in being black, being a woman. So those are two, you know, marginalized groups, historically marginalized groups. And so yeah, so there are different ways. And, you know, we talk about code switching, right? So we have to code switch a lot of times in order to get the work done, particularly in corporate spaces. Now, I don't know if you've noticed--well, I'm sure you've noticed because you know my colleague, Brittany J. Harris, who is the vice president of The Winters Group, and we're doing a series right now in our inclusion solution blog on decolonizing DEI work, and, you know, part of that--and I wrote a couple of weeks ago about decolonizing particularly the corporate world with, you know, corporate speak. So you come in and they have to have a business case, and the business case has to be "How does this help my business, you know, perform better?" That's, like, the classic corporate business case, and that's kind of centering this capitalist narrative, right? We're about the profits, and you can [show?] me by hiring black folks and hiring women, whoever else you want me to hire. If you can show me that that can help me to sell more whatever I'm trying to sell, then it's okay. So I think that, you know, to some extent--you know, I was just talking to a very large client just before this--I will not name that client. Very old client, 150, 160 years old, you know, very old. [laughing] You know, middle of the country, and they're just trying to get this stuff off the ground and you come in talking about marginalized groups and whatnot to a bunch of these white men, they're just not gonna--it's just not gonna happen. So it's this delicate balance, Zach, of on one hand, you know, you have to be able to engage the groups that they listen, and on the other hand you're trying to dismantle, you know, this dominant sort of narrative that doesn't necessarily work, and it hasn't worked. 35 years, 36 years, all of the same issues that I was teaching and talking about 36 years ago are the same. As a matter of fact, my book Black Fatigue will be coming out in February. Black Fatigue: How Racism Erodes the Mind, Body, and Spirit comes out in February, and I have a chapter in that book, Chapter 3, called Then is Now, and so I go back and I look at data from whatever point you want to take. You can take it from 1965, 1975, it doesn't really matter what you want to take it. When you look at our data and our statistics, we have not made progress. We're stuck, and we're at this standstill. Brown vs. the Board of Education was 1954, which was desegregate schools. Our schools are more segregated today than then. You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You know, all of this legislation, housing. In 1975, 43% of black people owned their own homes. In 2019, 43% of black people own their own homes. The net worth--and, you know, net worth is, like, what you're worth, right? Net worth. A single black woman's net worth is $500, versus the net worth of a white woman, single white woman, which is [$5000?], still low. The net worth of white people, at 150 something thousand dollars, is 10 times that of a black person, and it follows even if you look at college-educated. So somebody who has a PhD who is a black woman college professor with a PhD makes 20% less than a white man who has a PhD and 7 to 8% less than a woman who has a PhD, and so all of these inequities--and I'm using those just as an example--is about Then is Now, that we haven't really turned the corner. So we're fatigued. [?] And it's particularly tiring for me because, like you said, I've been doing it for over 35 years. [both laughing] I'm tired.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we've had conversations about that on Living Corporate, and we cite the study Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain that really goes into dispelling the myth that higher education will, you know, somehow close the wealth gap, and it hasn't and it doesn't. So let's talk about this. There's a variety of folks that we've had on Living Corporate who have said, you know, diversity and inclusion, corporate diversity and inclusion, is inherently [anti]-black, not just in its external doings but at the internal politics. Do you have any thoughts on the voracity of that position?Mary-Frances: Well, society is inherently anti-black, so by extension the corporate world is inherently anti-black. We live in a society that has historically and continues to be anti-black. I don't know--yeah, so I agree. [both laugh] I mean, right? So yeah, you know, D&I is inherently anti-black. It is because that's the society--you know, when I wrote this book Black Fatigue and I was telling people about this, "Oh, please write about black and brown fatigue and, you know, all deference to indigenous people and native people and Latinos and everybody, right?" But the black experience in the United States has been different than any of those other experiences, and because of that the stereotypes and the marginalization plays out differently, and so I really felt a need--even though [?]--I show statistics for Latinos and Asians, you know, as well in the book, but I really wanted to focus on how this is playing out for black folks, because let me tell you. I say--you know, [?]--race is diversity's four-letter word, and particularly when you talk about black folks, people don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about the black and whiteness of it. "Let's talk about Asians. Let's talk about Latinos," right? So this anti-black--so that's one way anti-black plays out. You know, we have to include the other groups that we have [?]. I had a call with a client just on Friday, and they talked about how the psychologist or sociologist, whoever we were quoting--I forgot who it was--was black, and so we were like, "Uh, yeah," and they said, "Well, you know, perhaps we need to get some other experts included in this data set." What's that about? "Are there some Asian people who have spoke on this too?" [laughs] So yeah, I mean, we live in an anti-black world, and by extension our corporations are anti-black. I mean, look at things like the recent legislation around the CROWN Act. Why does anybody freaking care how I wear my hair? Why do we have to have legislation for people to be able to wear their hair--for black people to be able to wear their hair the way they want to wear their hair. You know, the young man wrestler, right, and they made him--Zach: Yes, made him cut his hair. His dreads.Mary-Frances: His dreads, right. Exactly. Right there. You know? I mean, why do you care? You don't have to like--what I say to folks is, "I don't care if you like it. You don't have to like my hair. I'm not asking you to like my hair." [laughing] But, I mean, are we still in a slavery, there's no freedom, that we can't even wear our hair the way we want to wear our hair? You know what, I heard about hair 36 years ago when I was in the corporate world and I had a very short afro, and one day a colleague--wasn't even my boss, a colleague--comes in my office and says, "Will your hair grow?" And I just looked at him and I said, "Yeah," and he said, "Well, you oughta let it," and he walked out of my office.Zach: Wow.Mary-Frances: That's why I left corporate. One of the reasons anyway. But anyway, so yes, is it an anti-black world? Yes, indeed. Indeed, it is. Unfortunately, you know, it is. And when you say that--and the problem is when you say that to white people they think that you're calling them a racist, and I'm not. I'm not. What I'm saying is the very foundation and structure upon which our various societies and the way we think and the policies and all those things are based on anti-black sentiments, anti-black beliefs if you will. Zach: You know, I'm really curious about, like--because you're right, we had Brittany Harris on the show some time ago, and we were talking about decolonization and dismantling and deconstructing systems, right? So it was more so about, like, kind of, like, trying to make some shifts and some headway in this work, because like you said, there's a lot of conversations that have just been happening, they've been recycling for years, and I'm curious to know, what are you seeing some other, like, DEI groups or, like, kind of names, things that they're saying that you're like, "Man, we've been doing that." Like, "We've been working on that," or "That's not new. Like, y'all think it's new, but it's not new." Like, does anything like that stick out to you?Mary-Frances: Yeah, I think that, you know, the whole idea of, you know, oppression, marginalization, privilege, all of those kinds of things I think have been out there for--you know, for a long time. You know, we can all remember--those of us in this work--Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege. Judith Katz, my colleague, did something on heterosexual privilege back in the '90s, and the Peggy McIntosh book was back in the '70s. You know, Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, which shows, you know, bias. We now call it unconscious bias, but Jane Elliott, you know, put that out in, I don't know, the '70s, '60s or '70s. I was using that video--now that you've already dated me I'll just keep going with it--but I was using that video [laughing]--Zach: I'm so sorry. [laughing]Mary-Frances: No, no, no. You're fine, I'm just teasing you. [laughing] You know, I was using that video in the '80s, right? And now I hear people like, "Oh, do you know about Jane Elliott's video Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes?" And that's the other thing, [?] why I wrote Black Fatigue is because--and I'm not saying this is about millennials. This is not about generations at all thinking this stuff is new. This is about folks who are, like, in my age group to who this is all, like, a revelation, right? "We didn't know." So here, case in point. We know that COVID-19 is disproportionately impacting particularly black people, and when it came out, this proportionality, it was like, "Oh, wow, we have health disparities?" This is not new. I mean, these health disparities have been--they have been well-researched, well-written about, and they continue. They have not improved. Even middle-class black women are twice as likely to die in childbirth. You know, these are not new, and so that's what's part of, you know, the frustrating thing. You know, I really respect some of the newer folks who are coming into this space, and I think that they're doing remarkable work, and I'm hoping that perhaps they can put a different spin--I know Brittany, as a millennial, has brought definitely a different spin to our work. When Brittany came on board, which was, like, four years ago now I guess, we had started to talk about the intersection of social justice and corporate speak, because, you know, the language was all different, right? Everything was different. So we talk about mapping the intersection. What is the intersection of social justice and corporations? So corporations worried about the bottom line. Why should they be worried about, you know, social justice as well, and how do we get that languge? So I think at The Winters Group we're a little bit further ahead of mapping that intersection of saying that it's not one or the other. It really is a both and, because if you help to alleviate the social ills of this world or even of this country or even of the place that you operate your business, your business is going to be better.Zach: No, I'm right there with you, and I really think that segues well into this next question, which is just, you know, what trends do you see in this work from a thought leadership perspective, and if you were to kind of look across the landscape of this work and when you think about workplace equity as a whole, you know, where are the biggest places you think we have to grow?Mary-Frances: So where I see that we have places to grow in this work is fixing organizational cultures so that they truly are inclusive and we're not just using the word, that we're not just saying that we're inclusive, because the surveys that we do inside corporations would suggest that the cultures are not inclusive, particularly--PARTICULARLY--for black folks. Particularly. Now, when we do surveys with Latinos and Asians, culturally they may not be having a good experience, but they're not gonna tell us that because culturally they don't talk ill of--and I'm stereotyping, I know I'm stereotyping big time right now, but for the most part Latinos and Asians don't speak ill of their employers. That's a cultural thing, right? And so they're gonna say, you know, everything is good. We, you know, coming from a history of descension, a history of sort of laying it out there. You know, "No justice, no peace." Zach: Give us us free, yes.Mary-Frances: Yeah, right. We're willing to say, "No, this is not a good experience," if we answer the survey. We did a big survey for a corporation recently, and not many black people answered the survey. So then I did a focus group with them and they said, "Oh, no, we're not answering that survey. They can figure out who we are because there's only about 100 of us in the whole company." So the point is that organizational cultures, the traditional organizational cultures, are designed for dominant groups. They always have been. In the '70s when I was in the corporate world, they decided to bring in a whole bunch of black people, a whole bunch of black professionals, because they didn't have enough, and they just said, "Let's bring 'em all in here." Within a year, every single one of them were gone except one. There was probably about 30 people. Every single one of them left because the culture was not friendly, was not conducive. There were micro-aggressions all day long. [?] I told you about the micro-aggression about my hair. Here's another one. So the company sent me to some banquet or something, and I was sitting there--and I got to represent the company, so I was sitting at the head table, and we had a little fruit cup, you know, as our appetizer or something, and so the person sitting next to me said, "Oh, look at that, you have more watermelon in your fruit cup than anybody at the table." Now, why would you even say that? What would even make you part your lips to speak like that? Yeah. So you know what I did? I said, "Oh, you like watermelon? Would you like mine? I'll trade with you." [both laughing] So my point is that hasn't changed in 30 however many ever years that is. That hasn't changed. And so, you know, where we still need to grow is to really get at the culture, and the only way we're gonna get at the culture is to hold people accountable, and because the experience that people have in their organizations are 1:1 with their direct manager, right, and so if the direct manager is not talking the talk, walking the walk, it's not happening for that person. We often times focus on the top leadership, top of the house--"Let's start at the top of the house." I say that we need to focus on first-line leadership, those individuals who are most likely to have the greatest span of control. First-line leaders have more reports than the CEO. The CEO probably has six or seven direct reports, right? All the senior vice presidents, and then it goes down from there. So the biggest span of control and the biggest opportunity for change is at that first level, and we often times don't work with that first level of leadership because they don't have the budget for it or, you know, all of these other excuses. So I really think--and I've been saying this for years, so I don't know if this is a trend or not, but I've been saying this for years, that we have to get to that level. The other places that we still need to grow is pay inequity. You know, pay inequity for women and, you know, women of color in that equation too. That's an easy fix. You look at your data and you see who--if you have a disparity with women not being paid the same amount, then you fix it. You see, this is why if organizations wanted to do it, they could. Any aspect of diversity. If they wanted to do it, they would absolutely do it. So those are areas, I mean, in just terms of very tactical places, in terms of--cultures are really, really hard to change. So I had a call with a client this morning, and they had a question on the survey--they wanted me to review their survey. We have our own survey, but they got somebody else to do their survey, but they wanted me to review the questions. Here's one of the questions. "I fit in well at this organization."Zach: Hm, that's a good question.Mary-Frances: Huh? No, that's a bad question.Zach: Talk to me. Educate me why it's a bad question.Mary-Frances: Okay. Because it's about fitting in. Fitting in is about assimilation. Fitting in is about "I fit in," meaning that--Zach: I'm adjusting myself.Mary-Frances: I'm adjusting myself. I fit in, right? I mean, you still may get at it, but the whole idea of--even putting the language out there. So that's, you know, colonizing language, "fit," you know? Because what do we say when we hire somebody? We say, "Oh, yeah, they'd be a really good fit," and what "a really good fit" means is what? "They're like us."Zach: It's interesting, because the reason I was saying it's a good question is because I know a lot of--I know for me I would be like, "No."Mary-Frances: Right, exactly, and that's what they're hoping to get, but you see how the message could be from the other side, that you need to fit in.Zach: It absolves the organization of responsibility and onus in creating an inclusive work environment for that person.Mary-Frances: Exactly. So I said, "Why don't you have the question "I feel included at this organization?"" Right? I mean, you're gonna get the same answer, right, but you're now using language that is language that's about inclusion rather than fitting in, because fitting in is basically saying, you know, "Yeah, we need you to fit in. We need you to be like us." Zach: Okay, okay. Let's talk about black male presenting identities in this space, right? I could be speaking selfishly, but it seems as if they're still not highlighted with the same level of attention or nuance of some other people groups. Am I being fair? And, you know, if you agree with that, then could you kind of talk to me about why you think that may be?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So, you know, this is so interesting, because the chapter in Black Fatigue, it's called I Can't Breathe: Black Men's Fatigue, and I also have a chapter in the book called Say My Name: Black Women's Fatigue. So for the black women's chapter it's almost, like, twice as long as the black man's chapter, right? And I'm like, "Wait a minute." I said, "Is it because I'm a black woman and, you know, I relate to the experiences more?" So yes, and I'll tell you--this is the absolute truth. I am not kidding. I have been wrestling with this all weekend because I want to modify the chapter on black men to bring more of that voice. So with black women I could talk about, you know, #BlackGirlMagic, right? You know, what's the analogous movement for black men?Zach: There's nothing that big. I would say, you know, you have Black Boy Joy, but it's not as big, and there's some tension in that because a lot of black men are like, "Well, I'm not a boy. Don't call me a child. I'm a man." You know? So I'm not sure. That's a good question.Mary-Frances: So I write in the book about two experiences, two stories I tell. One story is about somebody who actually now--he has a degree in human resources, but he prefers to work with his hands, and he comes over and he tunes up our air conditioning in the spring and changes the filters and all that kind of stuff. So he was over the other day, and he worked for a large heating and air conditioning organization and was doing really well. They had him in their commercials on TV and everything and, you know, he said he just couldn't take it anymore. We would talk about entrepreneurship while he was still working there, 'cause he knew I was an entrepreneur and everything. So he finally left, and he's been on his own for 18 months, and he works 14, 16 hours a day. Nicest guy in the world. Got a young family, you know? Just really very customer service-oriented. He said, "Yeah, you know, when I go knocking on the doors, I've got to know how I'm coming," he said, "Because when they see that I'm black, you know, they get a little afraid." Ryan is all of 5'6" and, you know, maybe 150 pounds. He's a slightly built man. Zach: Slight guy, yeah.Mary-Frances: So he said, you know, "Why is this? Why do I have to exist like this, where, you know, I'm just trying to live and I'm just trying to, you know, run a business?" And he ran into--while he was in the corporate world, they told him one time that he couldn't get promoted because he was so good at his job that they needed him to stay in that job. That's why he couldn't be promoted, 'cause he was so good. [both laugh] Another time he was told that--he was promoting a particular service that they had, the air conditioning or whatever, and they said, "You're selling too much of this service." That's why he couldn't be promoted. So that's one. Another black guy, who had been with this organization for over 30 years, very well respected externally because he was in manufacturing and he has this particular knack for--he was called the turn-around man. He has a particular knack for going into a manufacturing operation and being able to, you know, whip it into shape, you know? The key performance indicators, the KPIs and all those kinds of things. I mean, he's a guru at that, right? [Lead?] manufacturing and all of that kind of stuff. And they would always send him to the place that was performing the worst, and he would go. So then they decided they were gonna put him in D&I, and this was after 30 years [?], so he's out of his element in D&I. He's gonna do his KPIs, he's gonna do his, you know, manufacturing operations. I think he turned just a few people off, right? So he ended up retiring early. No retirement party after all this. He's doing so well on the outside because he's got articles, he's got--he's well-known in this space, but he was kind of forced out of the organization because somebody didn't like, you know, what he said. So I think, you know, black men, one of the [?] chapters in my book, I have Tall, Dark, and Handsome, right? So when a white man is tall, he's paid more. When a black man is tall, he's actually paid less. The darker-skinned the black male man is, the less that he gets paid, right? Lighter-skinned black men get paid more than dark-skinned black men. So you take a black man who is tall and dark-skinned, you know, that feeds a whole lot of stereotypes, right? You know, and the handsome, you know, like I said in my book, black women [think they're handsome?, laughing] but the majority group probably doesn't. Not so much, right? But you're penalized. You know, black men are penalized, you know, for being tall. Black men are penalized for being darker-skinned. So my son, who is--he went to Harvard, Duke and Princeton, he studied under Cornell West. He is now a tenured associate professor of religion at Duke University. So when he was a kid he was always big. Joe's about, like, 6'5", so he was always big, and they always told him, you know, "You're gonna hurt the other kids. You gotta, you know--" So he's this gentle giant now because he was told, you know, "Don't be too aggressive." Up until the fourth grade there was something wrong with Joe all the time. We had to see a psychologist. You know, he just wasn't adjusting right, and he just da-da-da-da. All of these things. You know, he was in a white school district and usually the only black kid, one of two in his class. So in the fourth grade he had a teacher, he was a white male teacher, who said, "You know what? I think the only thing wrong with Joe is that he's brilliant." He said, "That's the only thing I think is wrong with him." And as soon as Joe started to see himself as brilliant and everybody else started to see himself as brilliant, guess what? Joe become brilliant, and voila, Harvard, Duke, Princeton grad, but if somebody hadn't told him that he was--[?], right? And so Joe writes about hip-hop and religion. He writes about the African-American experience. His book is--you might want to interview my son. His book is called "Hope: Draped in Black," and--Zach: I'd love to interview him, yeah. Let's talk about it offline for sure.Mary-Frances: Yeah, but what he talks about is how you hold hope in the wake of, you know, all of the oppression and whatnot. But, you know, we talked this weekend about black men and about, you know, the hip-hop culture and the gangster and, you know, the rape culture, and we talked about all of that and how that plays out and, you know, why that is, and yeah, it's--black men are very complex, very complex, and they have been, you know, obviously treated the worst. So it's tied up in self-concept. It's tied up in a whole lot of--and what one study found is that black men who have a good self-concept and are also able to figure out how to navigate, you know, the system, they do well in a corporation, but you've got to come first with a good self-concept, and I think, as quiet as its kept, all that bravado sometimes with black men, you know, "Show me some respect" and all that kind of stuff, you know, and "I'm all of that," I think underneath is really a lot of trauma.Zach: Oh, I agree with that. I think you're 100%, I mean, just spot on, and I also think, you know, when you think about black men in this space--it's interesting because black men and white women have something in common, where black men are black, yet they benefit to a much lesser degree, but they still benefit to a degree, from patriarchy, and white women are women of course, but then they benefit from white supremacy. So there's some dynamics there that are nuanced, and yet in a way that black women don't. So black women are women and they're black, right? So it's like, okay, there's no pool that you can pull from or there's nothing that you can really pull from a position of privilege. Of course you have able-bodied privilege, and if you're cisgender and all those things, but I'm talking about, like, just at a high level. So then--but I was gonna say that, you know, it's hard to talk about that because black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's like, "But it shouldn't be hard to at least try to engage in the subject a bit more intentionally," because, I mean, it hasn't stopped white women from being the center of attention for diversity and inclusion efforts for decades.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. Yeah, no. I think you're right, and so in the book Black Fatigue I question whether, you know--so to a certain extent yes, I guess I would agree that black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's more intra-culture than it is inter-culture.Zach: Right, 'cause black men ain't out here about to just be out here disrespecting white women at work.Mary-Frances: Right. Yes, there you go. Yeah, not unless [?]--nobody better know about it anyway, right? [laughs]Zach: Well, shoot. [laughs] Well, and that's the thing that blows my mind. Like, I had a conversation. I'll never forget. This was some years ago. I had a conversation with somebody who tried to, like, insinuate that the reason why I spoke so much at work was because, you know, I was the only man, and perhaps because as a man I'm used to dominating conversations. And I said, "Look, I might be the only man in this space, but I'm also the only black person in this space, and certainly the only black man," and I said, "So if you think that the reason why I'm quote-unquote dominating this conversation is because I'm a man and y'all are a bunch of white women, that's false." I said, "I would actually be more akin to being quiet," as it took me time to find my voice as a black man in white spaces. I said, "I would challenge you to ask why you would use the language that I'm dominating anything by simply raising my voice in a meeting," right? But there's, like, this--I agree with you. I think that there's a, like, lack of nuance when we talk about even how patriarchy is mobilized for black men. I think black men are benefiting from patriarchy with other black people. They don't benefit from patriarchy, like, from--like, if it's me or Karen, Karen is gonna win out.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. And for reasons like I was saying earlier. These studies show, you know, a tall--you know, you've got your stature if you will, that's a negative. You've got the color that's a negative, right? And so yeah, in white spaces, I think that it is an intersectionality in white spaces. You're black and you're a man. It's a marginalized identity.Zach: So, you know, your colleague Brittany Harris, VP of learning and innovation at The Winters Group, who we've had on in the past, has said that power is the silent P in this work. I'd love to hear more from you on the concept of power and how it fits into this engagement of workplace equity.Mary-Frances: Yeah. I mean, it is very much at the center, and it's complex, and when folks have power, why would they want to give it up? So I am not a proponent of power and privilege discussions with novices in this work. So folks who have not--I'm talking about people who are trying to teach, people who are trying to teach who have not had years of kind of understanding how all this plays out, I'm not in favor of going in and telling them that they have power and privilege. Yeah, I have it and I want to keep it. [laughs] Right? I mean, why would someone want to give that up? [?] Black people standing in front of a bunch of white men talking about, "You have power and privilege." Yeah. And so [they're?] like, "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" [laughs] I mean, they don't say that, but. And the other thing is how do they relinquish that power? I mean, that's really difficult to do. And the other problem that I have with that--so yeah, there's this inequitable power dynamic, but the other problem that I have with that is that we are accepting that we don't have power. We're rendering ourselves powerless, right? And so in the corporate world what is the key term? Empower. We want to empower our people. E-M, right? Empower, right? That is somebody giving you their power. So this is part of the corporate speak, you know, that I don't like, right? It's part of the dominant culture of corporate speak. I should have written about that one in my book. I might still. Anyway, I want to turn that around, that E-M to M-E. Me power. I have power. And so we have agency, but we don't take it. We don't use it because we have internalized that we don't have the power, we don't have power, and we cannot continue to--this is one of the trends I'd like to see, not to continue to talk to folks about power and just use our power, not to magnify the inequities. So everybody knows that if you're a white man in a corporation and whatnot and you're the manager or the leader or the director or the whatever, everybody knows you got power, right? [laughs] You know? You gotta tell me you have power? Why you gotta tell me that? Right? And so I think that there are other ways to claim power. I think that part of that is just the confidence that we come with, the self-concept that we come with. I think that we have to be ready to leave spaces, because there are consequences for us exercising power, and we have to have some safety nets, more safety nets than we have. So I left, you know, some 30 something years ago. I just stepped out on faith, I mean, 'cause I have a strong faith, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I just knew I couldn't stay there. We do know that black women, they're 40% more likely to start their own businesses than any other group, right? Because we recognize that it's traumatizing, and so this whole idea of--so who came up with the idea of power and power and privilege? White folks. To tell us that there's a power inequity... Surprise, surprise. And you know what? We're not gonna change that by telling white people that they have power. That is not gonna change that. The only thing that's gonna change it is for us to claim our power and to recognize that we have it. Zach: I love it. No, I'm right there with you.Mary-Frances: Right? [laughing] Stop telling white folks what they already know, that they got power. They already know that.Zach: No, that's true. Like, them not, like, screaming it from the rooftops doesn't mean that they don't know that.Mary-Frances: Well, exactly. Why would I scream it from the rooftops? Again, the dominant group, it's not something that they probably even--even when we call their attention to it, there are many who will want to say, "Uh-huh. And let me figure out how I'm gonna maintain it." There might be others who are curious. "Hm, there is this dynamic. Maybe I should, you know, do something to work on that," but the forces are so strong and entrenched, right, over 400 years of entrenchment, that it's not gonna change. You know, two or three or the small groups that you might get who are all for shifting that power dynamic, they're not strong enough to overcome that larger group who wants to maintain the status quo. So we just have to take it. We have to grab the power. We have to first of all understand we have it already. It's not grabbing anything. We already have it. We just have to use it and accept that there will be consequences sometimes for using that power, and if we don't have the strong safety nets in our community to, you know, accept and to protect those folks who, you know, get fired, you know, are out there, you know, being called out on social media because they're telling the truth or, you know, whatever it might be. We as a people don't support and protect our own as much as we should.Zach: Man, that's, like, a whole separate [?], and what we need to do is make sure we bring you back on when your book is closer to being published and talk about that, because I do think that, you know, how we--so, you know, we had Robin DiAngelo on some time ago, and she talked about white solidarity and the concept of essentially the formal or informal closing of ranks that white folks do to protect one another, often times at the detriment or harm of black and brown folks, and yet I don't--you know, because of colonization and because of just internalized oppression, you know, we don't have that I don't think in the same--Mary-Frances: We don't, yeah.Zach: And that's created so many challenges for us. I mean, since antebellum to today, right? Like, we've had so many issues because we don't necessarily practice to the same degree, protection of one another. So let's do this. You know, as you look across these leadership groups, especially during this pandemic, what are some of the top things you believe that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts?Mary-Frances: They have not educated themselves, so they are not--they think that they know, they think that their good intentions are good enough. So I've heard leaders say, "I don't care if it's the right thing to do for business," you know, the business case that we talked about earlier, "I just think it's the right thing to do, so now go forth and do it." However, because they don't have an understanding of the history or they know the history that was told wrong, they really don't know what to do. So they're making wrong decisions based on ignorance or, you know, a lack of information. I think the second thing that majority leadership does, particularly in the corporate world, is that they still have to speak to and answer to shareholders, and so they're not going to do anything that is going to, you know, jeopardize that. And so even when you're looking at board members, and what I hear often times is, you know, "Oh, the board won't go for that," or "We've gotta satisfy the board." Well, you need to change the board then. The board may not be--you know, you may not have the right people, because boards are tokenized [when] they have one token black person and one, you know, token woman on the board, right? So those are two things, and I think during the pandemic, I think because of this ignorance they are just not aware, big companies are just not aware of the world that some of the folks on the lowest rung face, and so when you say, you know, "shelter in place, stay home," that home may not be safe. That home may be filled with violence, right? You know, you make decisions about "Who are essential workers and who are not essential workers?" and you don't--you know, are you thinking about the health--again, talking with a client today, you know, talking about some of their contingent, you know, workforce, and they were saying, you know, "Well, are we gonna pay the sick pay or aren't we gonna pay the sick pay?" You know, [?], and so all of these kinds of questions, and they realized that "Yeah, we absolutely need to do that," and so I don't think that there's enough understanding of what marginalized groups face regardless of their socio-economic. So they're making decisions from their own lens, from their own--I'll use the word privileged--from their own privileged lens, and they're missing things. It's coming to light, right? A lot of this stuff is now coming to light, but some of the earlier decisions missed just the horrific impact that this is having on everybody, but particularly those who are in the lowest low end of the economic chain.Zach: Mary-Frances, this has been an incredible conversation. You know, I'd love to make sure that I give you space to talk a little bit more about The Winters Group, what you're most excited about, what you're looking forward to, even during times as uncertain and extraordinary as these. I'd love to just give you space to talk a little bit more about your company. Mary-Frances: Yeah, so we're looking forward to, you know, transforming ourselves as we always do, but this pandemic has made it absolutely imperative, and we've already been doing virtual learning, but we are looking at innovative ways to do virtual, ways that other people are not doing virtual. You know, we have whiteboards, and we have ways that we can break people out into groups. Like, the technology allows that, but I think the ways that we're doing it--we're doing simulations, and so I think this is an opportunity for us to be really, really innovative in terms of how we deliver our message. I did a virtual keynote, you know, a few weeks ago. I think it's also an opportunity for us to continue our [?] of the corporate message and the social justice message, because they have certainly come together with COVID-19 in terms of just what I was just talking about, how we see how marginalized people are even more marginalized. You know, as the saying goes, "When the world gets a cold, black people get pneumonia. When the world gets pneumonia, black people die," and so we're seeing that now, and I think it's the opportunity for us to even more strongly advocate for the intersection of social justice and corporate.Zach: Man, thank you so much, Mary-Frances. This has been phenomenal. And y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this every week. Coming to y'all with real talk in a corporate world. Make sure you check us out everywhere, okay? So you pull up your Google or your, I don't know, Bing, or your Yahoo or whatever search engine machine you're using, and you just type in Living Corporate. We're gonna pop up there, okay? Make sure you check out the show notes. Make sure you check out The Winters Group. Check out all the work that they're doing. Shout-out to The Winters Group and all of their incredible work. Shout-out to black women out here holding everybody down per usual. Thank you for all of your work. And shoot, 'til next time, we'll catch y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Mary-Frances Winters, CEO and founder of The Winters Group, leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm. Been out here laying the groundwork for y'all, setting legacies, and [they're] probably your favorite consultant's favorite consulting agency, okay? They've been out here. They've been doing the work. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with God-is Rivera, Twitter's first ever global director of culture and community, about recognizing power in digital communities. She talks about how her passion for journalism and storytelling led her to her role at Twitter and shares the ways she sees people creating a sense of community on the platform today. She also comments on the trends she sees happening in digital community building over the next year or so. Check the links in the show notes to connect with God-is!Connect with God-is on Twitter. She's also on LinkedIn and Instagram.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and okay, so look. We know Ms. Rona is out here. Not to minimize or, you know, de-emphasize the stark reality and grievous nature of this global pandemic, but we want to make sure that we're keeping our spirits and attitudes high, and so we know that it's wild out here. We know that folks whole lives are changing. We're adjusting to different types of normal, re-identifying what normal means, and, you know, you can rest assured that in the midst of all of this stuff going on that Living Corporate is gonna be here, you know what I mean? So, you know, it's interesting. I've had people, you know, send me messages and be like, you know, "This diversity and inclusion stuff, like, you shouldn't expect that your podcast, this platform, y'all's blog, the learning platform that y'all are trying to build and whatever, for that to really take precedent when we're in the middle of a pandemic," and what I've constantly had to remind people is that, look, folks on the margins will always be on the margins. Folks were on the margin before this pandemic, and they're on the margins now, and so, like, Living Corporate and the work that we're doing and the work that all equity, community, culture, belonging professionals are doing is all the more important now. And so it's with that that I'm really excited about the guest that we have today, you know? I'm not even going to read this long ol' bio. I'ma just get into it. We have God-is Rivera. God-is, welcome to the show.God-is: Hey, guys. What's up? Thanks for having me.Zach: What's up? How are you and your loved ones doing during this time?God-is: You know, we are so blessed. I am in New York, in New York City, and my immediate family, my husband, my daughter, and my mom and aunt, who kind of--we all live in Westchester County--we're okay. Everyone's been healthy. I've got grandparents between Atlanta and South Carolina and, you know, thank God they have been adhering to staying at home. I had to do a little nudging in the beginning, but, you know, them old folks is trying to get to the buffet. [laughs]Zach: We gotta have a conversation about that, right? [laughs] And it's interesting because I've talked to other black folks, right, who have these parents who have lived through all types of stuff, so they're not really concerned about some invisible illness, right? You know what I mean? They'll just take some castor oil and they'll be fine, you know?God-is: Some tussin. [both laugh] For sure.Zach: They've seen much worse. But you're right though, it's a blessing to have family members who will listen. I know my dad--you know, my dad, he and I are very similar, so I told him--and my dad is 55--so I was like, "Hey, Dad. You know, y'all staying inside, right?" He's "Oh, son. No, no, no. You ain't gotta worry about me. I'm right at the house." I said, "Okay, good." [laughs]God-is: [laughs] That's so crazy. My mom's the same exact age as your dad, and, like, she was good. She was like, "Oh, I've been in the house." Like, my mom works remote anyway, you know, normally, and so it was the grandparents I was kind of like, "Come on, now, y'all," but they got it early and they're okay.Zach: Yeah, it's definitely the grandparents. Okay, so now look, I have a lot of questions for you, but first I gotta get into your name. Can we talk about God-is?God-is: [laughs] Yes, I can. You know, it's really kind of a simple story. I know it's a different name, but the story is kind of simple. So my mom, she was a teenage mom, you know, just trying to figure it out, from the Bronx, New York. Shout-out BX. Zach: What's up? Yerp.God-is: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yerp. [both laugh] And, you know, she was trying to figure it out at the time, and she had this dream when she was about 7 months pregnant she told me, and it was just her great-grandmother who was speaking to her and kind of was like, "You have to name this child God-is," and so--actually in the dream I think she said it was "God-is-love," and she was like, "I don't know. This is so different." You know, my mom's name is Melissa, so. And she just felt like it was such a strong feeling that she just--she was like, "I have to follow this," so she went ahead and did it, and it's so interesting that, you know, having this name for over 30 years, I could never imagine my name being anything else. I never was ridiculed for it. You know, I've had a lot of conversations and great conversation starters, but it is--I've always felt so comfortable in it, and I think for me it really reminds me every day to just continue to step into my power and the amazing kind of gift that I was given just through my namesake. So it's not kind of a crazy story, but, you know, an interesting one I guess.Zach: Nah, nah. It's not crazy at all, but it is very interesting 'cause I saw it and, you know, it's also really--so I'm from the South, right, so, like, my family is, like, very churched. So I was talking to my mom about--[both laugh]--I was talking to my mom about this interview that I was going to be doing. I said, "Look, I finally got this, like, global leader. She has this incredible, like, huge profile, and I'm just really excited to interview her," and she was like, "What's her name?" I said, "Her name is God-is." She said, "God--Goddess?" I said, "No, no, not Goddess. No, God-is," and she said, "God-is?" And so I'm like, "Momma, just hold on." And so it's funny, 'cause I was like, "I gotta make sure I ask. For the culture. I need to know." Okay, so let's talk about your journey getting to Twitter. Like, how did your passion for journalism and storytelling lead you here?God-is: Hm. Okay. So that's a great question. It's really interesting to me when I think about, you know, being at Twitter now. My whole career was shaped by social media, and, you know, when I was trying to figure out, you know, Young God-is back in, you know, high school or, you know, trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, this didn't exist, you know? I think MySpace, it kind of sort of started when I got to school, and it was just one of those things that I knew that I wanted to be a journalist. I love writing, I love editorial writing, but what I wanted to do more than just, you know, kind of general journalism is I knew I wanted to work in black media. I wanted to work as a writer or an editor. I wanted to make sure that I was elevating stories and spreading awareness for the people that I felt, you know, had been silenced, which was my community, the black community, and then others. So I think just through that kind of passion I went into journalism, and I also am part of those millennials who's like, "Shout-out to the second economic recession we're coming up on!" [laughs] Because it was like, "Yo, I thought we had one in a lifetime, but oh, we doing two? Oh, okay." So, you know, getting out of school for me was right around that time, and it was just like, "Yo, I'm just trying to make my mom proud and not be unemployed," and I kind of found my way into marketing. Even though I wanted to do journalism and I continued to moonlight and really try to make that happen, I started to really become into marketing, and it was just like, "Let me just get a job." But in doing that I think, you know, I realized that marketing also tells those stories, and there's a chance to represent people and really elevate people who aren't always seen, and that's kind of what led me on that journey. And I will also say, you know, mid-2000s, 2006, 2007, when I started my career, it was always like--when it comes to social media it was like, "Who's the 23-year-old in the office?" Like, "I don't know about that Facebook," you know what I mean? "I don't know about that Twitter. I don't know about that, you know? Just tell her to do it," and that kind of attitude that of course over time become much more--brands and companies began to take it much more seriously, but that was kind of how I got my start, you know? I was a writer who could craft posts or ideas for these platforms, and I also knew how to actually post them, not like many other people in the office who were a little older than me. So that was kind of how I started my journey. So it was a little bit of serendipity, but also still me chasing this kind of passion to tell the story and represent for people who were not always able to do that.Zach: You know, and I really want to understand, like, you know, your experience in social strategy, because you're right. Like, there was a time when it was like, you know, we'd look at Facebook or we'd look at Twitter and we'd--like, we'd scoff at that. Like, I remember I had an internship where I created essentially, like, a social media--like, an ambassador program for this recruitment company, and everyone had a social media profile, and you were supposed to essentially, like, build your brand on social media, which would then drive, you know, business to the startup or whatever, right? But you're essentially building presence on Twitter. And this was, like, in 2010--God-is: Hm, those early days. [laughs]Zach: Yeah, so people were like, "What is this?" They were like, "Oh, this is cute, but this doesn't mean anything," and so I'm curious as to, like, what did it look like to take your experience in the social strategy work and, like, help it inform what you do for Twitter today? Like, can we talk a little bit about that?God-is: Yes. You know, I'm so grateful to the years that I spent really learning content strategy, learning social strategy, and I think it goes back to kind of that point about knowing that I wanted to kind of help elevate stories, and so what happened was that I really started to understand that there was a lot of power--you know how you think about in the court system it's like the prosecutor has all the power, right? In advertising creators have a lot of that power, but the story is sold and the plan comes from strategy, and I really took a liking to that. I realized that, you know, for me, what thrills me about strategy was that I have a chance to really kind of help build that story. I have a chance to figure out "Who is the people that we want to see that story? Where does it show up? How does it show up, and who is in that?" So I think for me, like, I really started to understand that there was a power in that, and then at the same time other brands realized that there is a return in this medium that was kind of a throwaway, right? There is something coming from when we post and then people around the world are talking about this instantly. And I think it was kind of two things happening at once. You had also more access to, you know, phones and technology that could help people kind of see things in an instant and, you know, thinking about campaigns that you were gonna through display or print long ago and then posting something in 90 seconds, you have, you know, celebrities in the public answering you about your product. You know, that's something that's just invaluable. So I think that's kind of what really started to help me understand that even more, and so I really became a planner, and I got to do it for, you know, both large and small brands, but what I think really kind of intrigued me the most is that what I realized about strategy is that there's always a target, right? Who do you want to see this message? Who do we want to respond to this? And also who is in this message? How does it look? How does it show up? What experience is it detailing? And I think that that, as I worked more in advertising, that was very homogeneous, you know? It was kind of the same target, the same people, over and over again, and so even me working in those positions, my own experience was left out, so I started to be really, really interested in, you know, "How are we gonna stop making this mistake? How can we stop ignoring communities that are actually shifting the culture but we're not even including them in who we're speaking to, nor their experience in what we're putting out into the world?" So I knew that through strategic direction that I could try and maybe shed a light on that, and that's really kind of where I focused. So just in thinking through audiences that matter, audiences that have been left out, as a true strategist I need that full story. I can't actually do that job well only looking at one small piece of an audience or a compelling story, and so I use kind of just that literal sense, taking the emotion out, because I'm a black woman who wanted to see that experience and I wanted to see other people's experiences as well, but you can't deny that you need a holistic kind of view to do your job well if you're speaking to the world and you're saying that's what you're doing. So that kind of interest in better understanding communities and what matters to them and how they want to be seen is kind of how I started along this path of informing the work that I do today, which is really working to connect with marginalized communities and make sure that they're amplified.Zach: So, you know, that leads me really well into the next question. So, like, I want to talk a bit about position and power, right? You sit in a global role in one of the biggest brands on the planet. God-is: Ooh, you're making me sound cool. I like it.Zach: I mean, your name is God-is. So how do you manage the responsibility that you have as a leader? Because I would imagine you have internal pressures to, like--like you said, there are things that you want to see realized and there are things that you want to achieve. There's a legacy and part of a longer term roadway that you're riding on, but then there's also external pressures I would imagine because of the intersectionality of your own identity, right? Like, you think about who you represent and what people maybe project onto you. And it's like, what does it look like to manage both sets of pressures while being one of the few in these spaces?God-is: Wow. I really appreciate that question. It often doesn't come in that way [laughs] that acknowledges some of those internal and external pressures, but I think what I love the most about that question is that--I just appreciate you using the word power. I think power is extremely important. I think that, you know, as they continue on in their career that, you know, positions can sometimes be a dime a dozen. They can come along and come and go, but they don't always include power, and I think that power affords this kind of real chance to create something new, to affect change and really challenge systems that aren't working and to actually be truly heard while you do it. So I very much am appreciative, but also just very thoughtful about how I utilize the power that I'm grateful that I've been able to have at Twitter. I really feel like a leader that is heard who's able to challenge and create in a way that is something that's supported, which I know is not always the case specifically for some of us that are kind of, like you said, one of the onlys. I'm not at Twitter, but, you know, in this industry, absolutely. So I think that that's important, and I think about the word pressure too. I don't know that I--it can get overwhelming, but I don't know that I would call it pressure as much as I would call it maybe an expectation or a commitment. So I think sometimes I get overwhelmed because just I--there's so much I want to do and get done, you know, for the communities I serve, but the way that I kind of balance myself and stay that way is that I just have to know that every single day I am working towards what I promised, right? Every day, and that my mission, my overall mission, my integrity, it stays intact every step of the way and that I know I'm not letting up any time soon, and I try and live that externally and internally so that I can say, "Look, I am continuing on this road. I know that it's important to me. There has been nothing that has, you know, taken me off course," whether it be your own ego or just kind of getting lazy. I know that I must continue on this mission, and so that's kind of the responsibility that I feel being in these spaces, that I have to continue to do this work to make things better and that I have to hold the door open for other people to do this work with me as well.Zach: You know, and let's talk about the work, right? So you're Twitter's first ever global director of culture and community. Now, let me just tell you, when I heard the title I said, "Ayo." [laughs]God-is: [laughs] I was trying to do big things. I'm trying to do big things.Zach: I said, "Yo, wait a second!" I was like... I mean, I don't know. It just--that sounds like a big title with a big, big, big bag. I was like, "Man." I mean, I was praising Him for you. I was over here [blessings come in sfx]. I was like--[both laughing]God-is: I love it, I love it. I appreciate you. Thank you.Zach: No, no, let's talk about what this means and what your responsibility is and what your team's responsibility is.God-is: Yeah, you know, and I think--you know, I would have to say, like I said before, giving some credit to Twitter, well, the credit to Twitter, for noticing that this was something that was a gap for them and that they wanted to fill. I would like to just maybe talk a little bit about how I got this job at Twitter. It wasn't the traditional kind of application way, I guess I'll say, because I think that how I got the job also speaks to literally the work that I'm doing now. And so, just as we mentioned before, my work in social strategy, I had really started to try and find examples of how I could explain and display communities that were shifting culture, that were forming together across social platforms, and then how those kind of phenomenons could be completely missed, you know, at agencies or with huge brands and how these things were formulating and happening, but because there was almost this cultural blind spot, nobody even knew what was going on. And one of the communities that I was particularly fascinated by was Black Twitter. I think that to me it was just such an incredible just example of how a historically marginalized community kind of uses their own cultural and shared experience to come together through technology and then literally shift culture, shift the narrative in a way that's very democratized, which is kind of what Twitter offers with this kind of space. And so I had started just a small presentation about that in the ad world, and it kind of made its rounds. I had done it at a couple conferences, and I had also made sure that I formed a pretty decent relationship with Twitter comms. I didn't want to get no C&D. [laughs] Like, "Who this girl think she is out here [?] telling me how to--" You know, and I want to make sure that, you know, I didn't know if they had something. I didn't want to step on any toes. And we developed a very nice working relationship, and, you know, from there they had started thinking about their first kind of all hands on deck, all-employee conference, which is called OneTeam. The first one they did was in 2018. And they actually invited me to speak about Black Twitter and do my presentation at their conference, and I was like, "Wow, you want me to do it? Okay," and so when I went I said--you know, I kind of was like, "Well, normally I do this presentation for the ad world, and at the end of my presentation I say, "And these are the people you need to be hiring. These are the people you need to be partnering with. Do not miss groups like this,"" and this is just one example of so many groups, you know, that we need to be making sure that we better pay attention to, but at Twitter, you know, I said, "Well, I want to kind of challenge them a little differently," and my challenge at the end of that presentation was how was Twitter better connecting with the voices from these groups, you know? Do they have plans for a cultural department or something that focuses on these communities in this way? And lo and behold. [laughs] So after getting off stage I was just so, you know, again, just incredibly blessed to be approached by some of the leadership there--shout-out to Jack, Leslie Berland, Lara Cohen, Nola Weinstein, who really set things in motion for me to come to the company. They just felt like, "This clicks. You get it, you get us, and this is absolutely something that we need to focus on." So again, I think just that acknowledgement of the importance of understanding these communities, the fact that it birthed literally this work and this role and this practice now, my team at Twitter, is just something I'm proud of and I think the community should be proud of as well, because I'm not talking about myself in my presentation. I'm talking about these collective voices who have literally shifted history and brought joy and accountability in ways that are just incredible. So I think that's kind of part of the story I think is important to put in context. Not everyone knows that story. I think it's important. But, you know, thinking through my own challenge now--I didn't realize at the time I was challenging myself. [laughs] It was very meta if you think about it, but I came in to solve that problem and kind of figure out what that looks like, so my team specifically focuses on building kind of these real world relationships with the voices from these marginalized communities who are active and who love and are loud on Twitter. So I wanted a team, you know, who really could help to continue to recognize the incredible power of these voices. Like I talked about before, they drive conversation, and they really shape culture on Twitter. The other piece of that is that as we look at how they use the platform, how they use their service and what they speak about, we have consistent learnings and insights. So what my team does is really kind of help our partners across the business understand how these communities both embrace and experience our service, good, bad and ugly, and so by doing that what we really hope to do is build a bridge between the service of Twitter and the people that it serves, and that's something that I think was really important to me, that we started to become this sort of connective tissue, and the goal in that is to really help empower Twitter to build the best product, but the best product that reflects the richness of the people who use it. [laughs] And so, you know, we can start to evolve how we amplify the conversations that are most important to these groups. So just really making sure that these people's experience, their conversations, what's happening, how they use it, use Twitter, that it's on the map, that it's a part of how we think about building our product, that it's a part of how we think about our marketing. It's embedded in every piece and fabric across our organization. I hope that makes sense. [laughs]Zach: It does make sense. In fact, let me go ahead and just drop this real quick. [Flex bomb sfx] A quick Flex bomb. That's how I felt as you were sharing--God-is: [laughing, imitating air horns]Zach: Oh, yeah. No, we got that--no, we got that too. [air horns sfx] For sure.God-is: Ayyy.Zach: Ayyy. So--[both laugh] No, no, it makes a lot of sense, and I 100% agree with you that--first of all, like, I wish we could just take a step back, and what I love about the work that you're doing and what you're highlighting is the meta narrative of black influence, like, just in culture period, right? Like, before Twitter we was already, like, shaking the globe. Like, we've influenced art, fashion, language, dance. Everything.God-is: Yep. We been 'bout that life.Zach: About it, and so we just so happen to be on this--anything that we jump on, like, we make it better, you know what I mean? God-is: Right, right.Zach: And so when I think about, like, Black Twitter, and I think about, you know, you're absolutely right that there's something about this community that is able to hop on, like, a platform and then suddenly, like, change narratives or, like, shift attention, and Twitter is a phenomenal tool for that. I think it's--like, it's gonna go down... this is not an ad for Twitter. Like, it's just the truth. Like, and you think about--[both laugh] But, like, when you look back... like, so my daughter is 5 weeks old. God-is: Oh, congrats. Zach: Thank you very much, yeah. She is adorable, and, like, as I've just kind of come to the reality of her being here, like, I think about the things that she's gonna learn in school, and I think about, like, "She's probably going to--" Like, when they study, like, technology that influenced generations or just different seasons of life or activism or whatever the case is, like, they're going to look at--Twitter is gonna be one of the technologies that they talk about, because it is one of the first times that we've seen, like, large-scale democratization of access and data and information and conversation and just general communication, like, across--and, like, for free. Like, relatively for free, right? You have to have Wi-Fi and stuff, but there's no direct cost to get on Twitter. Like, you just jump on it. And so I want to talk a little bit about how you see people today create a sense of community on Twitter. Like, what does that look like from your perspective?God-is: Yeah, and that's what's just been so fascinating. I share that kind of sentiment with you, and sometimes it's almost just incredible to think about, when we're kind of heads down in the office working we're like, "Oh, my God." Like, you know, "This is gonna be in the history books." Like, the work that we're doing right now, just because of where we are and what we're focused on, will be in history. I used to always say--I have an 8-year-old daughter. A little older than 5 weeks. But I always think about, "I just want to be in her history book for doing something that mattered," you know? And I think that, you know, the work that we can do here, it can be that important and impactful, and it keeps me grounded and it keeps me humble and it keeps me fighting even on days that are frustrating. And so I think also the thing that I love to see is how people create community on Twitter. I love that you said that one of our tenets is always to keep the platform free so that there can be that access for people to have these kinds of conversations and this public discourse, and so we kind of see people create community on our platform--there are kind of a couple different lenses. So, you know, there's obviously some interest-based communities where, you know, NBA Twitter is definitely out here. I mean, it's a lot going on every Sunday now with this Jordan doc, and you kind of see that happen, but that's a hugely active community, and that's around a shared passion. An interest, right?Zach: The Homecoming Twitter. Remember?God-is: Yes! Yes. Beychella Twitter. [laughs] Yeah, so we see that. We even see things that people may not even realize. Like, Plant Twitter is huge. Like, people share all types of, you know, just tips and tricks and beautiful photos of plants and flowers and so forth in their homes and gardens, and then we see--you know, there's obviously some professions that come. Academic Twitter is huge. I've learned a lot just about Education Twitter, Finance, and then there's also locations of course, and then of course we get into kind of those affinities and the allyship and the movements, and those are the Black Lives Matter and #MeToo, and we see a huge coalescence around those kind of moments. And then of course, you know, kind of where we get into my work is around those identity-based communities, and that's when we think about Black Twitter, Native Twitter, you know, Differently-abled Twitter, you know, Latinx--Zach: So educational.God-is: Yeah, you know? And Latinx, LGBTQ+ Twitter, you know, there's tons of intersections and sub-communities within there, and I think that is what's so fascinating. You know, just thinking about even just those groups that I just named, they don't have equal footing, you know? Even of each other, in society, to be able to tell their stories in their voices, but on Twitter, you know, that is democratized. It was somewhat of an equal playing field when it comes to people being able to share what matters to them or their experiences. So that's kind of exactly where my team focuses. I focus the most on those--I am here to serve specifically those identity-based communities, and, you know, again, this is not something that--no one ticks a box obviously and says what they are or what community they ascribe to when they sign up for Twitter, but through inferences and understanding that there is an allyship or an affinity there or an identity through conversation is what's really important to us, and so that's why I dig into how these communities have kind of leveraged Twitter in unique ways, and what we're seeing is kind of people who have shared experiences or shared kind of identities, we're seeing them kind of just corral around subjects in different ways, and I think it's great that we're able to see even people shape when they're challenging discourse, you know? Mainstream media may report on something--I don't know, something as simple as, like, gentrification, right, where it's an article and it's about, "Oh, look at the new grocery store that's in Brooklyn, and it's great, right?" It is nice that there is a new grocery store in Brooklyn, but then we're able to also see that that displaces people who lived there for 30 years. You know, is it construction in a playground area or something? And so I think it allows people to have this kind of 360 degree conversation that they've been craving but was only kind of relegated to the way that these groups could physically meet up in spaces, in physical spaces, and now we're seeing that kind of much more decentralized. Zach: God-is, it's almost as if you talk to people all the time, 'cause you're helping me--[both laughing] you're helping me segue really well into my next question, because, and I talked about it at the top, I'm talking about it again. So the rona, or as some folks say "that rona," is actively outside, and finding meaningful connection is more important now than ever. What are trends you see happening in digital community building over the next year or so?God-is: Wow. You know, I mean, this is--I'm so tired of people saying "unprecedented." Like, Lord, we need another word, right? Like, what is another word we could use? But I think, you know, it's been so interesting. Again, as a strategist, the study of human behavior--and I often think about the work that I do is more of almost a digital anthropology, because you get to watch how behavior shifts around different ideas, different events, and of course different just huge, I guess, news stories or health crises that are affecting us like the rona. So I think one of the things that I've really seen is that I think that we're gonna continue to see people really trying to create space and find opportunity for these really important inter-community discussions around mental wellbeing and wholeness. I've seen a lot of discussions between several communities about the idea that this is the first time many people have had in most working lives to slow down, and so they're able to kind of foster these deeper connections through technology, you know? We're looking at a lot of screens now, but we're trying to make the most of it and really focus on that wellness, and so now that we have that chance to kind of slow down, it's helping more of us stay balanced, more empathetic, more connected. I hope that we see kind of how important taking a moment is and that that continues. The other thing I think--oh, boy. Rona done--it done started a lot of stuff, right? [both laugh] Zach: It has, or exposed a lot of things too.God-is: Yeah. Oh, yeah, exposed. I think, in terms of technology too, I think that this will continue. I mean, we've already seen just the type of connective creativity that's come out of people just being in the house, right? People just being relegated to having to shelter in place, and so I think that we'll see more of this kind of agile, nimble creativity, and then also amplifying and uplifting those people who are leaning into that. So I think we were kind of in this space before where we were sort of fortunate. We never had to really think about being immediately without certain spoils of society, and now we kind of all know that that can shift drastically in a nanosecond and that it also can be out of our control too. So I think that, you know, industries, companies, brands, governments and individuals will really start to think about how they can better stay agile and quickly adapt for moments like this since it's just in our psyche now and it's not leaving. So I think thinking through what are the tools--you know, even myself, I'm sitting here right now, I've got my microphone, I've got my speakers. I ordered a new desk, you know what I mean? Like, [?]--and I'm fortunate to even be able to do that, but I think people are really thinking through however best in their capability, how can they be sure that they're able to stay connected and be creative and pursue during times that are just uncertain.Zach: You know, as we think about--to your point around, like, privilege, and I'm in the same position as well. Like, my job allows me to work remotely. I'm on paternity leave. When I come back, like, there's gonna be, like, a phased return, and then--you know, like, I'm in a position where I'm being handled relatively gingerly because of just the benefits that my job provides, like, absent of this pandemic but that are particularly beneficial and helpful to me right now. I think about though the folks who don't have the same amount of access I do, right, who look like us, and I'm curious about, you know, can we think about technology and marginalized communities having a more mutually beneficial relationship, and in what ways do you think that we can help drive more access and accessibility for these communities so that they can actually be on platforms where they can be heard?God-is: Right. I mean, that's--I think about it too, you know? I saw an article recently about some people having literally, like, class guilt, you know, almost, over this shelter-in-place, because it just affects so many of us differently. I myself as well can work remotely where so many people can't, so many of the front line workers, essential workers, who have to go out and make sure that we can continue to live, even at the risk of their own health and the health of their families. I do think, you know, again, just going back to that love of strategy, like, the first thing I always do and I always say should be done is listening. I think that so many people jump into trying to figure out what to do before they actually listen to what people need, and that's why I'm really proud of kind of the structure and program that we've built at Twitter, which is the Twitter Voices program, which my team created and runs, and that's kind of just literally a program that allows to try and identify some of these powerful voices coming out of these communities and then set up a sustained kind of relationship with them. How do we check in on them? How do we even have, like, a quick meeting or a lunch? Now a virtual lunch. But creating that kind of ongoing dialogue between the people who need to be heard so that we're aware of what can be done, and I think that's really important to do, because I think that it's important for us to listen to people who need to be heard, and then they can not only get the help that they [?] but also hold us accountable as well. But I think that what's important is that we continue to give these people kind of a microphone and a podium, you know? We need to make sure that they're not being ignored, especially during a time like now. You know, I think back, maybe the early '90s--let's just say this pandemic was 1992 or something. You know, the people who were most affected, the people who are not getting those loans or the PPE, the people who are being forced to go back to work or grapple with losing unemployment even if they feel it's unsafe, we would have no mechanism to really hear them writ large, you know? We would have no mechanism to hear them, you know, their conversations and how they're affected across the country, across the world, and so I think now it's important for technology to make sure that we continue to provide that space, provide that microphone, provide that podium so that these people can be heard, and for people like myself who work in these groups, we need to continue to focus on continuing this momentum of amplifying those conversations, helping to spread awareness on why it's important to listen to these groups, and that will enable us to build better products, you know, create better systems, and honestly overall a better society that should be inclusive to all, and it also allows us to tear down what's not working, and I think that maybe if there is any small silver lining to what's happening is we're seeing so many systems just almost buckle because they were not built to truly serve everyone, and that's something I think that, while that's happening, we need to be sure that we're in partnership, we're listening to and we're rallying behind the people that need us the most.Zach: God-is, this has been an incredible conversation. God-is: Aw, thanks. This is great.Zach: No, this is super dope, and before we let you go, I just want to give you space. Where can people find you? Where can people connect with you at? And then any parting words or shout-outs?God-is: Oh, wow. So thank you so much for having me. This was awesome. This was a nice just break from the rona, [laughs] to get to wrap with you, so thank you again. Everybody can find me on Twitter of course @GodisRivera, G-O-D-I-S-R-I-V-E-R-A. I am terrible at email, so I won't even do that to y'all. [laughs] But if you hit on me Twitter I promise I'll hit you back. Also don't be afraid to slide in the DMs. And then lastly just--Zach: She does respond too. Like, not to cut you off.God-is: I do! See? [laughs]Zach: So y'all, like, months ago I tried to get God-is on the pod, and I think she was actually pretty new to the role. I didn't care, 'cause I was just like, "Yo, this is crazy!" So I slid in the DMs, and then she hit me back, and then, like, we weren't able to make it work, and I was like, "Dang, okay," and I felt like she curved me, and so I said, "Dang, okay," so then I DM'd you and I said, "Hey, you know, I'm sad that we weren't able to make it work, but hopefully we can stay in touch," and she hit me back, y'all. She said, "Yep. 'Sho will," and I said, "Oh, my gosh. Okay," and so then--and now here we are. So look, y'all. 'Cause some of y'all are [churched?] or spiritual. This is not a message to y'all to keep on. [?] So this is not me encouraging you to pester people. This is just me saying that God-is responds to DMs. All right, my bad. Please continue.God-is: No, I appreciate that. Thank you, because I know you probably cannot get me really any other way. Twitter is just where I'm at. This is even before I worked there, so it's very true. And also I think, you know, just one more shout-out to my team at Twitter. I wouldn't be able to delve into this work this way if it wasn't for the support and the consistent support that I get there, from leadership all the way down to my team. Shout-out to Culture & Community. Love you guys. Nola, an incredible leader, Leslie Berland, Jack Dorsey. You know, it's an incredible culture that allows us to be able to dig in and really do what we can to try and make a difference in the world, even if it means we make mistakes along the way. It's a really great, supportive environment, and I'm grateful for it. And just also a shout-out to the home team at home. My husband Jay, my daughter Jordan, my mom, my aunt. That's my home team that allows me to do this work the way that I do and try and serve as many people as I can. And I hope everybody out there stays safe. Thank you to all the front-line workers, the health care workers. Thank you guys so much for doing what you can for us. I hope to hold you guys down as much as you are holding us down.Zach: Wow. [round of applause sfx] Y'all, this has been Living Corporate. Look, you know what we do, right? 200+ episodes in. We're having conversations with executives, entrepreneurs, thought leaders, professors, activists, public servants, elected officials, all about what? Real talk in a corporate world. We center and amplify marginalized voices, underrepresented, underestimated, unaccounted voices in the workplace, and we do this for you every single week. Make sure you check us out. Just Google us, okay? We're all over Barack Obama's internet, right? You just Google Living Corporate, okay? So it's Living Corporate. Not Corporate Living. Corporate Living is the inverse of what I said. So you want to do Living Corporate, and, you know, if you're, like, old school and you gotta type it in the bar, you can do www.living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. You can do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We have all the livingcorporates, God-is, we just don't have livingcorporate.com. Australia owns livingcorporate.com. It's some--God-is: Dang it. [laughs]Zach: I know, right? But one day, one day the brand will be brolic enough that we will actually go and get livingcorporate.com. I'm just going to speak that. God-is: Yes, manifest it.Zach: I will manifest it, but today the vibrations and chakras are just not there. So look, y'all. Make sure you check us out. Shout-out to God-is. Shout-out to Twitter. Shout-out to your team. And then let's make sure that y'all check out all the links in the show notes. Y'all check out God-is. Please do not bombard her with DMs, okay? I can't imagine what her DMs look like, but she has offered. She has let you know that that's the way to reach her, but I'm just asking as a courtesy. Just think about what it is that you have to say, maybe share it with--you know, maybe write it down, you know, then send it, you know? Just help her help you help us, you know what I mean? 'Cause I can't imagine the nonsense you get in there. Anyway, all right, y'all. 'Til next time. This has been Zach. Peace.

Zach chats with Race2Dinner co-founders Regina Jackson and Saira Rao about the genesis of Race2D, how exactly its dinners take place, their experiences running it and so much more. This episode features explicit language. Listener discretion is advised!Connect with Saira on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram, and connect with Regina on Twitter.Interested in learning more about Race2Dinner? Check out their website.Follow Race2Dinner on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, look, you know that we try to keep it clean on Living Corporate, but every now and then we have folks come on who are impassioned, and we are not ones to censor anybody if we really believe in the heart of what it is that they're saying and the mission that they're doing. So the conversation you're about to hear does contain some harsh language, so listener discretion is advised. Catch y'all next time.What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we do. We're having real talk in a corporate world. How do we do that? We talk to black and brown entrepreneurs, executives, activists... let me see here, what else? Public servants, creatives, artists, influencers, educators, you know what I'm saying? Anybody who is black and brown or an aspirational ally. We try to have them on the podcast and have real conversations, right? These real conversations are centering underrepresented and marginalized voices. We're having conversations that often go unhad or whispered in a corner. We're trying to have those out loud and on a digital platform so that they can be accessible to everybody, and we do this weekly, and we have dope dope dope dope DOPE guests. So today we have two guests at the same time, yo, at the same time. Saira Rao and Regina Jackson. Yo, so let me--so I got these two bios here, y'all. Y'all know what we do. You know I try to read the bios just so y'all can have an idea of what's going on, then we get into it. So here we go. Saira Rao grew up in Richmond, Virginia, the daughter of Indian immigrants. For forty years, she wasted her precious time aspiring to be white and accepted by dominant white society, a futile task for anyone not born with white skin. Several years ago, Saira began the painful process of dismantling her own internalized oppression. Saira is a lawyer-by-training, a former congressional candidate, a published novelist and an entrepreneur. Now, look here, if y'all don't recognize what kind of podcast this is about to be by the bio that I read that they gave me, listen, I'ma just go ahead and drop the Flex bomb right now. It's about to be spicy in here. Now we'll go ahead and go Regina. Now, born in 1950, Regina remembers an America where everything was in Black and white. Burned into her memory are; the beatings and horrific treatment of civil rights workers throughout the South, the Goodman, Chaney & Schwerner murders, the murder of Viola Liuzzo, the murder of Martin Luther King, Jr. and the murders of President John Kennedy and his brother Robert. The violence perpetrated on innocent people going about their lives by white people, it is these memories that drive Regina to push for real change in America, which is why she co-founded Race2Dinner. Saira and Regina, welcome to the show. How are y'all doing?Regina: You know, I'm doing great. Saira?Saira: I'm doing pretty well, thank you.Zach: So I read some bios, but can we get into y'all's own stories as to why Race2Dinner came to be and how?Saira: Well, like my bio said, I ran for Congress exactly two years ago, and I ran in--we live in Denver, which is a predominantly white city, and I ran on an explicitly anti-racism [platform] about the racism within the Democratic Party, which, you know, we know there's--the Republican Party's entire platform is racism, but there's ample racism within the Democratic Party. And so, you know, what I found was a long line of white ladies wanting to have coffees, breakfasts, lunches and dinners with me, and 99.9% of the time it was for them to tell me very indignantly that it's not them, "not all white women," and then they tick off all their civil rights accomplishments in the past and their safety pins and how awesome they are, and really just telling me about how I had them wrong, that they were individual--you know, "Stop painting all white people as the same," and so, anyway, I had to do those because I was running for office and I needed to [?]. After I lost in June of 2018, I became a big target of sort of the alt-right, Breitbart, Fox, those places, and the invitations for these lunches and dinners didn't dissipate as I had hoped. They just got more and more and more. And I continued to do these lunches and dinners in good faith, recognizing by the way I was not just out hours and hours of my time. It also took a tremendous toll on my mental health. And by the way, these ladies never picked up the bill. And I was, you know, paying for dinner [?] for babysitting because I have two small children. Anyway, that's when last December this happened with Regina.Regina: So when Saira ran for office, I immediately fell in love with her because she was talking about racism that doesn't get talked about in the United States, and she was talking very provocatively about racism. She wasn't being nice. She wasn't not using the white privilege and white people. I mean, she was talking it, so I immediately volunteered for her campaign. I worked on her campaign and got to know Saira, and I was like, "Wow, I really like this woman." So I had had a white friend who said to me--she said, you know, "I'm just over Saira. She hates white people, and I'm just gonna be done with her," and then in the next breath she says to me, "But if you can arrange it, I'd like to go to lunch with her to talk about it." So I talked to [Saira] and Saira said to me--she said, "You know what, Regina? I'm not doing that anymore," she said, "But I'll tell you what. If she wants to have a dinner and invite some of her white lady friends and you do it with me," she said, "I'd be happy to do that," and thus was born Race2Dinner.Zach: Wow. It's--okay, so let's talk a little bit about, Regina, the exchange that you had. Why do you believe that your friend at the time said that Saira hates white people?Regina: Well, because Saira was saying she hated white people. [everyone laughs]Saira: [laughing] No, I didn't. I didn't say that. No.Zach: [hold on a minute there playa sfx, laughing]Regina: Okay, it's up for debate. [laughs]Saira: No, I literally never said that. So the thing about this particular woman was that I said that Beto O'Rourke is a white savior, and she was one of these women who was, like, obsessed with Beto O'Rourke and went to Texas to volunteer for Beto O'Rourke, and I said, you know, Beto O'Rourke is a white savior, and I also donated to his campaign, and if I lived in Texas I would vote for him. You can actually, you know, hold various things to be true.Zach: At the same time, yeah.Saira: At the same time, and so that's what sent her over the edge. And that's actually--at the dinner she brought that up as the thing that sent her over the edge, and she, you know, got really angry when I wouldn't budge on the fact that Beto O'Rourke is a white savior. Frankly, I think Beto O'Rourke might acknowledge himself that he's a white savior. And so, anyway, she cried. She got super mad. She did all the stuff that white ladies too.Regina: This is a white woman who called herself my friend. She thanked me for, you know, teaching her about racism and helping her to be a non-racist. She told me how much she loved me all the time, blah blah blah. When we started our Race2Dinner website and we decided to do a Patreon, you know, where people sign up for $5 a month or $12 a month. This white woman, who had told me--she's a widow, never had any children--that her income after her husband died is $200,000 a year, and I said, "Will you sign up for our Patreon?" She told me to put it [?] on Facebook. Needless to say, we are no longer friends, 'cause she talks the talk but she doesn't want to walk the walk.Zach: So you're saying she has over 200--I'm sorry, but I'm shocked, 'cause I come from humble beginnings, right? And I'm not from Denver. Like, I'm from the South. So, like, you said--just to go back a second, you said her income is over $200,000 a year?Saira: Yeah, and she won't spend $60 a year on our labor, on our writing. She wanted us to put it on Facebook for free.Regina: And see, we have really been talking about that issue, how white people don't want to see black and brown women especially paid for our work. Now, you know, they'll pay $40,000 to go hear--what's her name?Saira: Glennon Doyle.Regina: Yeah, Glennon Doyle, but they can't pay us for our labor in a personal, private, small group conversation?Saira: That includes dinner and booze.Regina: That's more white people nonsense, and I'm not having it.Zach: I mean, at a certain point you're just like [what more do you want from me? sfx] You know? Like, what is this? Like, what are we doing? Like, y'all see this effort. Y'all know that it's valuable. Recognize it financially. And y'all know that the way this system is built--capitalistically--that we need the bread to survive, so come on. Like, come up off. So I hear that, and it's interesting, 'cause Race2Dinner, it reminds me--and I want y'all to walk me through this format, 'cause I've been to a couple of events like this where, like, you get together over dinner and you talk about quote-unquote culture. I want to understand though. Like, talk to me about the format of Race2Dinner, how it works, and just how it's set up.Regina: Okay. Well, one of the first things I think there is to recognize is that most white people don't even know that they [?], okay? In the book "Waking Up White" by Debbie Irving, she talks about white culture, and us as non-white people, we recognize it because we have had to live it in order to, like you say, survive. It's perfection. It's being nice to everybody.Saira: It's talking about nothing.Regina: Yeah, don't talk about hard stuff. Don't upset people. You know, that's the culture that we were all raised in, and they still want to just talk nice, and we say, "You know what?" The other thing is they're all in their feelings. "You made me feel." Can we curse on this show?Zach: Yes, absolutely. Go ahead.Regina: [laughs] And I love to say, "Fuck your feelings." [Zach laughs] That's between you and your universe. That has nothing to do with me, but they are always up in their feelings, and that's one of the things--in Race2Dinner, if you have to cry, you have to leave the room. Zach: Really? If you start to cry, you are [?] from the table?Saira: Yeah, cry or get really angry. But to answer your question about painting a picture for you. So, you know, why is it dinners? People say is it "Why is it dinners? Why can't you do conferences and keynotes?" Blah blah blah. Here's what we know about white women. White women are devoted to being nice and polite, and there's nothing more impolite than getting up and leaving the dinner table, period. The setting is a beautiful dinner table in a woman's house where she's serving dinner and she's pouring wine. And so this is the white woman's happy place and safe place, a dinner party with other white women, right? And, you know, every once in a while maybe they go to dinner parties where there's A black woman or An Asian woman or A Latina woman, but, like, you know, they feel very comfortable, so they come in and kiss kiss, "Oh, my God, how are you? You look great, you look great," the whole nine yards. And then they sit down, and instead of "Oh, my God. What are your kids doing this summer for summer camp? Oh, my God. My husband's irritating me." We just--it's very, very much like this. Like, everyone go around the table and say why you're here, and you literally have, like, a minute or two to do that. 'Cause early on we were like, "Why are you here?" And they would just, like, pull out their resume and start telling us about how they volunteered at Planned Parenthood and they went to a Black Lives Matter rally and whatever, and so--anyway, after that, the next question is "Please go around the table and name one way in which your racism has presented itself in an action that you've done recently," and then they basically fall out of their chair. Like, you might see pee come down their legs, because it's like... they can't leave. They all want to freak out and run out of the room, but they can't because they've got this nice beef tenderloin and a glass of Chardonnay sitting there and it would be rude as fuck to do that. So then they have to actually do that.Regina: And we used to--we just changed that format, because we used to [have] everybody introduce themselves, and then we'd talk about our background and why we were there, and what we found is we would have two or three women in every dinner who would not say a freaking word. You know, the lurkers. So we finally said, "This is not okay. If people are going to be here, they need to engage." So we make everybody talk about, you know, "This is why I'm here, and this is how I notice racism in myself."Saira: In myself. So, you know, you go to one of these, like, liberal white person dinner parties, and they're sitting around for hours trashing Donald Trump and trashing the Republicans and talking about--like, they pat themselves on the back. It's like the Backpatting Olympics, right? Who is the most awesome white person in the room? This is a place--and by the way, they try. So, like, at the last dinner party--and look, these are not bad people. We've got to break down this false binary of racist bad, not racist good. That shuts down the conversation. But there's a white lady there who's lovely and [?], and we asked her "What is the racist thing you've done?" And she starts rambling, and then she says, you know, a friend of hers ends every conversation with "Me love you long time." And all the other women were like, "What?" And I was like, "No, no, no. How are YOU racist? Stop deflecting it to your friend." In that case, which she could have easily said--but she didn't, she can't [?] anything else--is "I'm racist because I've never shut that down." So that's the silence is complicity. So all this, like, "The Republicans are bad," what about you? Like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? Like, silence is complicity, you know? And even though the Republicans are quote "bad," white America allowed this to go on. Donald Trump didn't invent racism. He just capitalized on it.Regina: That was my turning point, this whole Make America Great nonsense. I'm like, "No. I'm done with white people nonsense. I'm done." You know, they need to step up and call a thing and be the wonderful people that they seem to think they are.Zach: And Regina, so your profile, the fact that you were--you know, like, you were active. Like, you was moving around during the civil rights movement and you're still here in 2020. So, like, have you ever had situations where people have, like, either alluded to or told you to, like, get over it or it was a really long time ago or times have changed, and if so, like, how do you react or respond in those situations?Regina: You know, I don't think anybody would tell me that. [everybody laughs] But I have [this?] attitude. You know how us black women can give off that "Don't fuck with me today?" Zach: Yes. [everybody laughing]Regina: [?] going on generally 24/7. It's like--[to this day sfx] So not today, not ever. Not having it.Zach: Oh, my goodness. I love it. The spice. The energy on this podcast, it's reached incredible levels, and we're really just, like, still in the beginning. So when it comes to--and even, like, honestly, like, the tone of this conversation, right, the unapologetic, like, very to the point manner in which y'all are speaking and in which, like, I see, like, your website communicates as well as your online personas. I'm curious about what feedback or critique you get when it comes to, like, the idea of civility, right? 'Cause I feel like even today there's a lot of folks who are still, like, really hanging their shingle on civility, and they use it almost, like, as a cudgel to, like, silence voices. I'm curious as to how y'all respond to that.Saira: That's what it is. Calls for civility is calls for silencing. And I'm just curious, when has--so civility is code for being nice, right? When has nice saved people of color [?]? Like, was niceness there to save Trayvon Martin? Is being nice saving the brown and black people who are dying in concentration camps around the country? Is niceness [saving?] the Palestinians, upon whom we are, you know, aiding [Israel? and dropping bombs upon them?] Like, being nice is code for doing whatever the fuck you want to oppress people and not getting called out for it. That's what being nice is.Regina: Exactly. And remember that Dr. King said that white [moderates,] they would rather have order than justice. You know what? I'm not about order. Fuck your rules, okay? Fuck hurting your feelings. Fuck being nice. Let's talk the real deal. Let's talk about how you're hurting black and brown children, how black boys and girls get treated in school, how black people are being [?] out of their communities onto the streets by gentrification? Let's talk about all that, and if it requires me to be nice, then it ain't happening.Saira: Yeah, you know what's super not nice? Stop and Frisk. You know what's super not nice? The Muslim ban. You know what's super not nice? These concentration camps. And so I'll tell you what though, Zach, is, you know, before I even ran for Congress I spent a year, 2017, going the civil way. I went to the University of Virginia, and at that time most of my [?] in life were friends that I had met at the University of Virginia, overwhelmingly white women. By the way, like, I was in an all-white sorority and I wore [Laura Ashley?]. So I used to think that I was a white woman. [?] And I tried. You know, I did dinners with these friends. I cried, they cried. I made them--you know, I patted them on the back. I massaged their feet. I think I might have painted a toenail or two. I mean, I did all the nice, civil things, and every single time--it was, like, straight out of an SNL skit... which, by the way, SNL is also a toxic, white, liberal mess, but it was, you know, "We don't like your tone. You just seem really angry." My favorite from one of these women was "What are you doing? You're completely alienating everyone." And I said to her, "Who's everyone?" And I said, "Are you unaware that there are people of color who actually are in agreement with what I'm saying?" And she was like, "Oh, I never thought of that," because she literally--the only people of color [she knows?] were me, one--and she's a nurse, so a couple of her colleagues. She has a black woman colleague and a brown woman colleague, and she said to me, "Well, I asked them, and they said that they think you're crazy, and, like, [that?] racism is untrue." And I'm like, "They're not [safe?] to say that. You're, like, their boss," you know? And somebody said--it's very funny. They're like, "If you're white and you have a brown or black friend who doesn't talk about white people, then you don't have a brown or black friend." Regina: I was gonna say, now, my big thing, I started working, volunteering, mentoring in a high school about six years ago, and I would--the woman who ran the program and started the program woudl tell me all the time that I hurt her feelings. You know, everything you say hurts their feelings, and I sounded like I was angry, and I just started saying, "You know what? I'm mad as hell, and I could give a shit about your feelings, so deal with it." She finally resigned, and I [?], and now the program is being run by people of color.Saira: Yeah. And by the way, like, of course we're angry. I'm sorry. Like, white women literally go batshit crazy if their spin class instructor is 5 minutes late. Go fucking crazy, right? They're angry and it's fine, like, that's fine, but we're not supposed to be angry about systemic oppression. We're not allowed to be angry about that, but they can be angry about a yoga instructor or a spin class instructor being 5 minutes late. It just goes to show you they don't care--it's not only that they don't care, they actively are fine with being participants in this. They just don't want you to call them out for it, and in some ways that's the difference between Republican woman and Democratic women, the 50% that voted for Donald Trump versus the one who kind of sat idly by on let Donald Trump win, you know? Do you know how many white liberal women I know who voted for Hillary Clinton, but their husbands voted for Donald Trump, and they didn't speak a word [?] Hillary Clinton. They didn't put a Hillary Clinton sign in their yard. When I would come into their house they would be like, "You can't talk about Hillary Clinton here because of So-and-so." So what's the difference between the husband who is voting for Donald Trump and the wife who is silent? Nothing. You know, feasance versus non-feasance. It's all the same thing. Not acting is acting.Zach: And so I'm curious, like, again, the delivery of this, and even with the [criticism?] that you've received like "You're not being nice" or "It's not being [?]" or whatever the case may be, and yet Race2Dinner is a whole organization. Like, y'all are an active organization, so clearly--Regina: That's the other thing [?]. These white women want to say, "Well, what do we do with our money?" It's like, "It's not your business. Do you go into Nordstroms and say, "What do you do with your money?" We're not a non-profit. This is a business."Zach: And so I'm curious. Like, it seems as if your approach was so off-putting and alienating that your business would not be viable, and yet it is, right? [Both: Yeah.] So talk me through--Saira: That's a good question. You just asked the question "Why?" One woman put it to us like this not too long ago, and I think this is it. She said a lot of stuff. She's the woman who said to us--I said at this dinner, particularly dinner, you all don't see Regina and I as your [equals.] You don't see our humanity. You do not see our children and grandchildren as your children and grandchildren's equals. You don't see their humanity. 7 out of the 8 of them just shook their head. "Oh, my God. Wrong, wrong, wrong," right? Woman to my left, you know, God bless her, she paused before she spoke and she said, "You know what? I'm not gonna lie. I don't. I don't see the two of you as my equal. I don't see your humanity. I don't see your children and your grandchildren, Regina, as equal to mine," and there was a collective gasp, right? Like, they couldn't believe it, and then little by little they were like, "Yeah. I mean, that's right," and at the end of the dinner this woman said, "I feel such a sense of relief. I feel relieved," because white supremacy kills everybody, including white people. It's like a disease. It's toxic and it kills you. And she said, "This is the first time I've been able to actually acknowledge this to myself, say it out loud, say it in a room full of my peers and say it front of the people that I harm every [day?]," and I think that's it right there. She articulated why we're able to get people to come to these dinners, because it is a relief for them, at least, you know, the ones who are willing to accept it and come in with fully open minds and leave their fragility at the [door.] I think it's a relief.Regina: And, you know, one of the things that I want white women to do--and I don't know why it's so hard, but it is, is to just step up when you see injustice, when you see racism, when you hear it, call that shit out and let things fall where they fall. They never do that. They're always dependent on us to be the ones calling it out, and I'm like, "Y'all started this shit. Get in here and stop it." Saira: Right, just like men created and benefit from misogyny, so men have to dismantle misogyny. We can't. Women cannot. Similarly, white people created and benefit from white supremacy, so they're the ones who have to do it. So this is--by the way, we don't allow for other women of color in the room, because the one time we did--it was a Chicago dinner. There was another Indian woman in the room, and so, you know, she's a member of the community. These are people that she sees at pick-up and drop-off at her kid's school. Every time we were speaking, looking at her and waiting to see and asking, "Well, do you feel like this? Do you feel like this?" It was a deeply unsafe space for her, just like my nurse friend asking her women of color colleagues if they felt like that. That's not safe, right? So we don't want to put other women of color in a situation where they're answering to white women in that room because it's not safe for them.Zach: In y'all's experience of having this organization, this [business?], and facilitating these dinners, like, what has been the most eye-opening experience?Regina: My most eye-opening experience is we had a dinner with several white women, 8, and maybe 4 of them had adopted children of color, okay? Black children, and we had one young woman--I would say she was maybe in her 30s. She had adopted a young black boy. This woman had the audacity to say that if her family and friends said something racist or harmful to or about her child--Saira: In front of her child.Regina: In front of her child! She did not correct them because they loved him. That's the biggest [?] I've ever heard in my life, and if I could've taken that kid away from her I would have done it.Zach: And so then--you know, a piece recently came out--and Saira, this was something that you actually tweeted about. I believe it was someone who actually attended a Race2Dinner event, and they said, you know, "Most folks don't like Saira."Saira: Well, she said, "A lot of people hate Saira." [everyone laughs]Regina: And I'm like, "There, it's out there. We can get over it." [laughing] Saira: Yeah.Zach: And so I'm curious about what does it to look like--like, what does it look like to continue to do this work in light of those types of critiques? Like, where do you get your strength and resilience from to continue this type of work?Saira: It's not easy. I'll say Regina's a big source of strength and a big source of resilience for me. Here's the deal. It's a process, right? And I would be completely lying if I said it didn't bother me when--you know, look, I've gotten used to most of it. I've gotten used to the white supremacist trolls. I've gotten used to the Nazis. What I do not enjoy is getting doxxed. That happened over the weekend by a white woman in Abu Dhabi. Doxxed me and my family, so put out our private information and tried to send Nazis to come hurt my family. I do not enjoy that. I don't enjoy that my children get left out of things, you know, because their moms hate my guts. I don't like that. It's uncomfortable a little bit to run into these old friends of mine around town, and I know what they think of me and I know what they say about me. I don't love that, but, you know, besides that, it's okay. It sounds really weird. Like, I'm actually okay, because I realized that I was filling my life with a lot of nonsense, and how many times--I mean, you know, I was thinking back on this because we're working on a bunch of stuff, but I've had to, like, dig deep, how many times--I was at a party once in college with these friends. It wasn't even a party. It was a dinner, right? And I couldn't leave because it would have been rude to leave. And it was two white women sitting across from me who were not really close friends, me, and then this white woman to my left who was a very good friend, and one white woman said to the other--her last name is an Asian last name but she's white, and she said, "Oh, my God. When I got the letter in the mail that you were gonna be my roommate, I freaked out and I said to my parents, "What have I done in my life to deserve an [Asian?] roommate?"" And they started laughing, and they were like, "And look, it turned out great!" And my friend to the left of me, she was laughing too, and I was just sitting there stunned, and I said, "Hey, you guys. I'm Asian," and then they all took another sip of their [beer?], like, spit it out laughing, and they go, "Oh, yeah, but you're not one of those kind of Asians." And I said, "No, I am. I'm actually 100%--" They go, "You know, like, the accent and, like, the weird food--"Zach: Weird food?Saira: Yeah, "And the smelly, weird food," and I looked to my friend, and she just sat there and was laughing with them, and so I did what I had always done, which I started laughing too. So I sold myself down the river and I upheld--that's how [people of color?] uphold white supremacy is I laughed as well and I let it go. How many of those experiences have I had in my life? I cannot even count them. There are too many to count, and so I'm living an honest life, and you know what that means, living an honest life? If that [means I'm hated?], so be it. Hate me.Regina: You know, as a black woman, I have learned many, many years ago that the only way I can sruvive is I affirm myself on a daily basis. I know who I am. I know what is okay with me. I know what's not okay. So when people start talking shit, "Regina's this, that and the other--" And I tell my mentees that. The best way to have a good life is know who you are. Affirm yourself, and when you get crap from anybody else, you don't have to own that because you know who you are.Saira: Yeah. And Zach, just further to that by the way, I'm trying to start affirming myself because Regina really truly is the most [evolved?] person I know. I think a big part of why a lot of people come at me--and it's all kinds of people. It's not just white people. It's black people, it's Indian people, it's Latino people. It's I'm the first generation of the "model minority" born and raised in this country, right? So we're new, and we're supposed to stay in our lane, and we're supposed to be extremely grateful and not call out white supremacy because we are the model minority. So there's something extremely jarring to have an Asian lady in the middle of Colorado speaking like this. I think that's a big part of it too. I mean, lots and lots and lots and lots of South Asian people really hate my guts.Regina: They just want her to shut up.Saira: You know? They will say--I had [?] Indian people say to me, "Stop talking about Black Lives Matter," and I was like, "They know that there's a Muslim ban. Like, they know." So I'm so confused. I mean, you're called Apu how many times a week? You're called [?] how many times? And they're just, like, pretending like it didn't happen. And really funny, the only Indian/South Asian PAC didn't invite me to their gala in 2018 when I was running for Congress, and so [Andrew Yang?] actually invited me to go as his guest. And so I went. I flew out and I get there, and it's 8 other--something like that, 8 other--South Asians all [?]. By the way, they're all, like, super white platforms and [?], and I show up with Andrew and everyone's literally like, "Who the fuck brought her?" Like, "Why did you all bring her?" I mean, it was just really funny. I mean, it's funny "haha," but yeah, like, my own people hate my guts. Regina: You will love this. Saira says at our dinners, "I'm anti-black and all of you are racist," and I go, "Guess what? Black people know that." We know that every immigrant group thinks they're better than us. We know everybody would rather be whatever than black. That's not news.Saira: So we talk about. So I just want to add that one last thing to what Regina said. You know, we'll say, "Who's racist in this room?" And most of the time no one raises their hand except for me, and they're like, "Wait, what?" And [I'm like?] "[I'm Asian?], so I've been trained institutionally to be anti-black," and then they'll look at Regina because then the next step--you know, Step 1 is dividing and conquering, and they look at Regina like, "Oh, my God. Look. You've got an anti-black colleague here." Regina's like, "All Asians are anti-black." Like, if I'm asking white people to acknowledge their own institutional bigotry, it would be wildly hypocritical of me and completely lack of self-aware if I wasn't able and unwilling to do that myself.Zach: And so it's interesting because, like--I just find it all so very intriguing, because, like, the closer we get--and I'm continuing to have conversations about the fact that November is coming up, and, like, the closer that we get to November, it's interesting that we're, like--a lot of us are still kind of moving, like, business as usual, but--Regina: I know! It's scary.Zach: It's really strange, right? Like, even though, like, we remember all of the chaos, like, that happened four years ago, like, in and outside the workplace. I recall the work day--Regina: [?] the election.Saira: We know that. We know that.Zach: Right, and so it's just strange to me that, like, even from a diversity, equity and inclusion perspective that we're not really talking about that. Like, we're not preparing--Regina: Yeah. Where is the [Congressional Black Causus?] Where the fuck are they? [everyone laughing]Zach: Oh, my gosh. This has been--oh, man, this is great. But no, I find it really curious, I find it really curious. So Race2Dinner, it's white women attending the dinners, and then you both are facilitating the dinner. What do you believe it is about--like, 'cause typically we talk about gender equity and we're rarely intersectional. We rarely talk in [?]. We typically just say "men and women," and the default of course there is white women. It seems as if there's still a lot of work to be done when it comes to white women understanding their place when it comes to understanding diversity, equity and inclusion and how they fit in this role and, like, what power they wield, and I'm curious, why do you think there's still a reticence to engage that? Even from, like, just an intellectual exercise?Regina: Well, you know, I like to say, first of all, you all--everything you've made has been on the backs of black people. Let's get that out there first, okay? So that's the first thing they need to understand. They wouldn't have what they have today if black people had not fought and died [in] the civil rights movement. So that's the first thing I want to say. The second thing, when we talk about intersectionality, we're really talking about black women and their intersection of both race and sex. So white women--this is what we try to say. You know, the foot of patriarchy is on your neck just like it's on yours. You want to continue earning 75 cents for every dollar the white man earns? Fine. But if you want ever to have equity, enjoy the same rights that white males do, you better come and join us, because we've been fighting this for a long time, and we're gonna continue to fight it with or without you, but they also have the proximity to the power. They have the proximity to the money. These are their fathers, their uncles, their brothers, their sons. So that's why they need to be engaged in this.Saira: Well, and the reason, you know, they always pick whiteness over gender is because they're benefiting greatly from whiteness, and so they've been born and raised--but they would never say that, right? That's the lack of honesty and transparency. They've been born and raised to see themselves as the greatest victims on the planet because they are below white men. So that's it. That's where their analysis of inequity--that's where it stops. It starts and stops on them being the biggest victims on the planet, and as a result they erase women of color. We don't even exist in their minds. I'll tell you what, Zach. Use this whole hoopla around the 19th Amendment 100-Year anniversary this year. It's a great window into white feminism. Susan Becky Anthony totally fucked black women, right? So the 19th Amendment [was not?] the women's right to vote. That was the white women's right to vote. And so we're not--like, black and brown women are not celebrating the 19th Amendment, but you would think all of these freaking white suits all over the place running around and talking about how this was, you know, the year that women [?]--that's not true, and there's a direct line between Susan B. Anthony and Nancy Pelosi who regularly throws her women of color colleagues under the bus, starting with Maxine Waters and every member of the squad. So I'm tired of it. I'm tired of white women, you know, lumping all women's rights together. That's not true. That's just not true.Regina: And they know it.Saira: They know it. They're pretending like they don't know it.Regina: See, the biggest issue that we have is them pretending that they don't know shit. They're here to pretend like they don't know how bad it is for women of color. They know. They're gonna pretend like, you know, we're all treated equally. They know. So I want them to stop pretending and tell the fucking truth.Saira: We ask every dinner--this is well over 100 white women around the country--how many of you would trade places with me or Regina? Guess how many of them have raised their hands. Guess.Zach: Zero.Regina: The first dinner. No, one from the first dinner, remember? That we filmed?Saira: Yeah. I mean, it's between zero to one. So they were [?] about that, so they know. They know. So they first tell us that they wouldn't trade places with us because they're better than we are, and then they'll all say--they stopped doing this though because we put an end to this nonsense--"I'm just hear to listen and learn. I'm just here to learn." You already know because you wrote the book about white supremacy. You had it optioned [?]. You've made every film. It's won every Oscar. It's been exported to every country around the world. It's been translated into every language. And you're asking us to explain the book that you wrote? Like, I'm so--that's bullshit. That's bullshit, and we are not [?]--that's fine, that's the way it is, but we're not here for it. We're not here for your stupid ass lies.Regina: That's right.Zach: [laughs]Regina: We can tell you can't wait to have dinner with us, right?Zach: No, no, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I actually have some mentors that would love this, and actually what I really want to do is I want to give y'all space. So we'll make sure we'll put all your information in the show notes, but I want to give you actually some space, like, to plug all your information. Where can [they learn?] more, how people can sign up, all of that.Saira: Race2Dinner, R-A-C-E-2-dinner.com, and find me on Twitter--I'm Tweeting quite often--@sairasameerarao. Regina: Regina Jackson. I'm on Twitter @ReginaJacksonMe... I think. You know, I'm old. I don't know all this stuff. [both laugh] But we have a couple of great people working with us who schedule all of our dinners, and you can reach them through the website. And also we have a Race2Dinner Facebook page, and Race2Dinner is on Twitter, and Race2Dinner is on Instagram.Saira: And we're also, Zach, starting to do corporate executive teams, so boards and executive teams, because they seem to need it because diversity and inclusion is a big hoax, as you know, and, like, 95% of diversity and inclusion is run by white women. And hey, companies, white women are not diverse and are not inclusive. Regina: Well, and where do you think they get their information about racism?Saira: Yeah.[Flex bomb sfx]Saira: What we've heard from a lot of--like, the three non-white diversity and inclusion officers in the country have talked to us and said, you know, "How great would it be if you two could come in and say the things to the board and my colleagues that we can't say without getting fired?" They can get fired. We can say the shit they can't.Regina: And I just had this conversation with my husband yesterday. We've got some things going on in Colorado with our judiciary. The office of the Supreme Court in Colorado has nine black employees out of 260 something, and none of those are at a management level. So we were having this conversation and I said to him, "You know, Gary, me and Saira, we can talk shit 'cause we don't have to answer to anybody. I don't have to keep a job. We don't have to play politics. We get to just call a thing a thing." Saira: And I think ultimately, if we want to blow a little smoke up our bums, I think that people kind of like us at these dinners.Regina: I could care. [laughs]Saira: No, no, but he's asking why they [?].Regina: Oh, yeah. They want to be our friends. They want black and brown people to like them. And this is really interesting. I just--while we're talking about this, I just got a three-page letter from a white woman friend of mine--[I've known?] her probably 40 years--who is married to a black man, and in the letter she wanted--she had read The Guardian and she wanted to know about if we were gonna take on the issue of how white women that are married to black women are treated in black women spaces, okay? So that's what she wrote me about, and I talked to my husband and I said, "Here's the issue. We can't trust you." I said, "When 53% of [white women] voted for Donald Trump, and then they want to tell us, "Oh, we're in your corner," we can't trust you." So until we can trust you, I doubt that we're gonna accept you.Saira: Yeah, and Regina said that at one dinner last summer. You know, we were talking about trust, and one of the women said, "Well, that hurts my feelings. You mean to tell me you don't trust any of us in this room?" And she goes, "No, I do." She goes, "I trust Saira with my life," but she goes, "I don't trust the rest of you bitches." [both laughing]Regina: You know, it is what it is. In order to be trusted you have to be trustworthy, and white women have not proven themselves to be that.Saira: Not just that, they've proven themselves to NOT be that.Regina: Yeah.Zach: And so then, you know, in some of the pieces that I read about Race2Dinner, I know that there are executive leaders who are white women who attend Race2Dinner, and I'm curious about, from your perspective, what is it that you're seeing leaders are doing or not doing that is hampering inclusiveness and equity in their respective workforces?Saira: We just had a dinner in Chicago, what, like, two weeks ago, and I would say this was one of those--you were asking what were sort of the most poignant moments, well, this was one of the more poignant moments for me because we kind of saw the whole ecosystem at play. So this woman is a nurse in Chicago, and she said--and she, like, got teary, and she said a month earlier she was in a meeting with 9 other white women nurses and doctors and their boss, who's a white guy. A doctor, okay? A doctor. These are people who deal with brown and black lives all the time. And he said that the big thing they need to tackle in 2020 [was?] hiring foreign-born doctors, and she said, "Well, guess what I did?" And we were like, "We know what you did. Nothing, right?" So she said, "I went through the whole thing in my head. "Maybe he didn't mean it." But she was like, "No, all the foreign-born people that we've been hiring, Norwegian and French doctors. We had been hiring brown and black doctors." And she said, "I didn't say anything. I didn't say a word." And I said, "Did anyone else?" And she said no. So that to me was like, "Oh, my God." And I said, "[?] that. So you just upheld--what you all, the ten of you white women did, was every bit as toxic as what the white guy did."Regina: And harmful.Saira: And harmful. And so, you know, I said, "What if you broke the cycle there? What if you had said something?" And then Regina of course said, which is true, "Here are some of the ramifications. Let's play this out. You could have been fired, right? They would make up an excuse to fire you. "You've become a troublemaker" or whatever. You become demoted. You're ghosted. All the stuff that we've experienced, but they would think twice before saying and doing this harmful stuff the next time. Like, using your voice in these professional settings is so important because it moves the needle in a way that [?] they can actually move the needle. And, you know, she totally got it. Meanwhile, white lady to her right does exactly what they always do 'cause they need to set themselves apart. She goes, "Ugh, I can't believe that you did that. I would never do that." I was like, "No, no, no. Like, let's back it up. Of course you would, and you do, so why do you feel--" She goes, "Well, I know that you think that it's not possible that I'm not like that," and I was like, "You're all like that by training, you know?" And so, anyway, it was the need to separate herself from, you know, classic white woman behavior, and what was great is the other women at the table did come after that woman and say, "Come on, you know that we all do this. We're all silent at dinner tables. We're all silent in executive meetings."Regina: Exactly. One of the things that I make sure that I tell women, this is just the beginning. If you are going to be in this work, #1: It's work. You will be doing this for the rest of your life. #2: If you expect to gain anything, boy, are you wrong. You're gonna lose. You're gonna lose relationships. You're gonna lose jobs. You're gonna lose friends. This is not a winning game. It's not a winning game for us, and it's definitely not a winning game for white people.Zach: Oooh. See, I don't have sound effects for, like, spiciness. That's why I've been dropping that Flex bomb from time to time, but I will say this has been incredible. Before we let y'all go, any parting words?Regina: I want to shout-out to Genevieve and Lisa.Saira: The two white women who work with us.Regina: Yep.Zach: Come on, white ladies. [air horns sfx]Regina: Thank you for having us on this show, and I'm looking forward to listening to this interview.Zach: We're looking forward to everybody hearing it. Y'all, yo, now, I told y'all at the top of this it was gonna be spicy, so y'all don't--don't be emailing me with your complaints. You want to see the manager? I'm the manager. Y'all know we are unbought and unbossed, okay?Regina: That manager stuff doesn't work with me, so I get you. [laughs]Zach: Yes. No, it's not. All the emails go to me, Ade and Aaron, so we not--nope. [laughs] Y'all, this has been--man, this has been a dope conversation. You've been listening to the co-founders of Race2Dinner, and just thank y'all, thank y'all. Saira Rao, Regina Jackson. Make sure you check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Just Google us, you know what I'm saying? If you look up Living Corporate we're gonna pop up there. SEO is strong enough, okay? Check us out on all of our domains, www.living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got all the different domains, y'all, we just don't have livingcorporate.com yet. Like, Australia owns livingcorporate.com, but one day we're gonna get that domain too. And shoot, if you have questions just make sure you just DM us. DMs are wide open. You don't have to follow us back. We're thirsty like that. Just hit us up. You can also email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Until next time, this again has been Zach, and you've been listening to Regina Jackson and Saira Rao, co-founders of Race2Dinner. Make sure y'all check out the information in your show notes, and make sure you sign up and go to have a racy conversation. All right, y'all. Peace.

Zach sits down with former StubHub and Facebook alum Bärí A. Williams to chat about intersectional identities. Bärí also talks about her upcoming book "Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege, and Bias" dropping March 31st. She shares what inspired her to write it and talks a bit about the challenge she faced in efficiently categorizing so many intersectional identities when it came to the 25 people she interviewed for the book.Pre-order Bärí's book on Amazon.Connect with Bärí on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. Check out her personal website by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, you know what we do, right? It's a Tuesday. Hopefully you're bunkered in somewhere, not panicked--what's the word? Oh, using an abundance of caution and, you know, keeping away from folks that don't wash they hands. You already--okay, anyway, we're not gonna talk about that. The point is you're taking care of yourself. Maybe you're listening to some smooth jazz and you realize, "Oh, snap, I need to listen to the Living Corporate podcast," and here we are, so what's up? You know that we are centereing black and brown voices at work, and we do that by having authentic conversations with folks across a wide array of industries, okay? I'm talking about energy to transportation to telecommunications. I'm talking about lawyers and doctors and professors and, shoot, hourly employees, activists, influencers. I mean, anybody really, as long as they're willing and ready to really talk about the folks that are most impacted, most marginalized, in this world that we live in, and today is no different. We have Bärí Williams on the show. Bärí Williams, you know, she's a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You know, for me to try to, you know, wrap that up in a quick little intro would be inappropriate, so we're gonna get to know Bärí in this conversation and talk a little bit about what she has going on, and we hope you enjoy it. And with that being said, Bärí, what's up? Bärí: How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, I'm doing really good. I know we were talking off-mic about, you know, staying rona free. Bärí: Man... that rona.Zach: That rona. [both laugh] It's not playing doe. They said Chuck got the rona?Bärí: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Chuck got that rona... When Tom Hanks--Bärí: Tom Hanks got the rona.Zach: When Tom Hanks--when Tom Ladarius Hanks got the rona I said, "Okay, we need to slow down."Bärí: Fire yourself. [both laugh] Tom Ladarius. But also yes, because he's from Oakland.Zach: He's from Oakland. And this is the thing, when he called [?] I said, "Oh, okay."Bärí: Oh, no. So here's the thing. The funny part about that is Tom Hanks was in my uncle's graduating class, in the same high school and all that. So that's a real thing. Like, Tom Hanks knew about [?].Zach: Man. Well, see, I knew--so, you know, the apple don't fall far from the tree.Bärí: That doesn't explain Chet Hanks though.Zach: We not gonna talk about Chet? [laughs]Bärí: I don't have anything for Chet.Zach: Man. Boy, that blackness went away when he realized his parents was sick doe.Bärí: Right. That patois was gone.Zach: That patois was--I didn't hear--no patois ting--[laughs]Bärí: "Mom and Dad are sick, guys. Thanks for your prayers."Zach: Snap. He was tatted up doe. But yeah, [laughs]--Bärí: He tried.Zach: He did, he did. But yeah, okay, okay, okay. Look, there's a variety of things we could talk about, right? Like, a lot of stuff is going on. This is not typically a current events podcast. I do want to talk a little bit about the book that you have.Bärí: Yeah, yeah. Out March 31st. Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Get Your Conversations Poppin'. I interviewed 25 different people, and what was super interesting about it was it was 25 people that I picked, and I got probably five or six interviews deep and I told the editor, "Hey, I know we want to segment these into five different categories, but all of these people are intersectional. So you can figure out where you want to put 'em. I'm not gonna make that determination." Because who am I to say that somebody being LGBTQ and Christian outweighs, you know, maybe how they're genderfluid or express themselves? I'm not gonna--Zach: Yeah, you're not gonna rank that.Bärí: Yeah, or how when I talk to two black women in the spirits industry I'm not gonna rank whether they feel that they're black first or a woman first. "So you put them where you want them, but here they are."Zach: You're absolutely right. I mean, I think when you force--I think about, like, Feminista Jones. Like, she talks about this from time to time. It's, like, this idea that you make black women choose between their femininity, their womanhood or their blackness, and, like, that's violence, right? Like, you need to let people be all of who they are.Bärí: I totally agree. I would say what's hard for me with that though is that I can only speak for my experience, but I have always been black first, and the reason being is that all of the experiences in my life would not be different if I were still black and a man, and that's, like, wow.Zach: Let's talk about that. Break down that down a little bit for me.Bärí: Child, we can talk about it. My mama literally just texted me and said "I feel asleep reading your book. This is really good. I didn't know people were out here living like this." [both laugh] But yeah, I feel like--and I've been told this before, and it probably isn't a secret to you. I can have a bit of a dominant personality. [laughs] And that is--but I feel like that is not abnormal for black women. Period. Zach: It's not. My mom is like that.Bärí: Exactly, and my mom was like that, and my son's mom is like that. Which means me. [both laugh] So... I mean, if you're used to it you know how to deal with it, but the harder part, at least for me, is working within that framework in a corporate environment. What does that mean, to be a strong black woman in a white, predominantly male, sort of passive aggressive environment? And the answer is I still don't know, 'cause they say they want one thing, and then when they get it they're like, "Ooh... this is a little-- This is more than I thought."Zach: Well, I think a lot of folks do say that they want certain things, but it's like--you know, when you finally experience this, particularly when it comes to--you know, people say they want diversity, they want inclusion, and it's like, "Yeah, but until you're--"Bärí: Until it makes you uncomfortable.Zach: "You're in a room and you're doing a presentation and then three people who don't look like you raise their hand asking you a bunch of questions that you weren't prepared for. Then all of a sudden you ain't really like that," right?Bärí: Yeah, that's exactly it. And, like, I touch on that a lot in the book. So, in the book, it's segmented into five different categories. So it's Race, Gender, Age and Ability, Religion and Culture, and LGBTQ. And when I say that there were only--I interviewed 25 people. I actually interviewed more than 25 and let the editor decide what she thought--the editor was also a black woman, which was, like, fantastic. So, like, she got me, and that's very rare, particularly in publishing. And she read it and she was like, "Yeah, these are really, really good, and this is hard to figure out where to put folks," because you have people who are, you know, dealing with issues around culture and race, and then you have issues dealing with, you know, sexuality and race, and then you have people dealing with gender and religion, and so yeah, where do you put them? So out of the 25 people that we ended up selecting, in the end, only two sit cleanly in one bucket, and what was interesting about that is they were both Asian men. Zach: Okay, yeah. Bärí: Everyone else, you know, fit into multiple categories, and that's one thing we talk about is, like, how do you navigate being in multiple categories and fitting into a predominantly straight white male able-bodied world?Zach: And, you know, I think also, like, it pushes up against this narrative of, or just this binary mindset that we have about everything, right? You're either this or you're that or it's this or it's that, and it's like, that's just not the way the world works, and, like, people are really complex, but I think, like, part of, like, this decentering of whiteness, particularly white male straight able-bodiedness, is forcing people to realize that not only--like, these concepts are not new. It's just that certain things are happening now where you can't ignore those non-white male groups anymore.Bärí: Yeah, and I think people are very, very uncomfortable with that, very, and so part of it is in the book there are takeaways from each chapter. There are key--it starts with definitions in terms of, like, what are some things you're gonna see in here that people have said in their interviews that's gonna be prevalent and super relevant? Like white saviors, okay? And I didn't feel afraid to go there. Like, I know some people are gonna be like, "Ooh, white savior? So you're insulting--" No, I'm not, but you also think you're wearing a cape and you can save us all, and that's now what we're asking you to do, and also, like, you need to know that you're doing this. It's white saviors, it's understanding the difference between, you know, being cis and--like, people just--just terms and things that people may not be familiar with and to get them comfortable with the idea of that terminology and then how to use it.Zach: I think that's really important too, right? So, you know, we talk about white fragility. There are different types of fragility too. Black men can exhibit a certain level of fragility. I think, like, people who are in any position of relative privilege--relative privilege, now. Relative privilege. Have a potential to exhibit fragility, and I think folks don't necessarily like being educated when they're wrong. So, like, having something, a resource... and, like, Google is free, y'all, so don't... but anyway.Bärí: Child, I tell people that all the time.Zach: [laughs] Even if, like, getting corrected in public or by another human makes you uncomfortable, I mean, you could at least--I mean, you could engage with your own fragility in prviate. But anyway, the point is, having a book--Bärí: I will tell you, my husband is a product manager for Google, and he works on the Android wearables team, so he doesn't even actually work for the search engine, but when I ask him a question and he thinks it's dumb, he'll just send me the link--I'm trying to remember the acronym, but basically the acronym stands for "Let me Google that for you." Zach: Yeah, somebody sent that to me one time and--like, but this is the thing about that... and that's cute, and that's your husband and stuff, but let me tell you something. I remember one time I was at work and I asked somebody a legitimate question--Bärí: If somebody did that to me at work though I would want to fight.Zach: I said, "Wait a second. Let me tell you what it's not gonna be. You gonna answer my question, okay?" Don't play. Don't play with me. [laughs] Bärí: Like, there is a whole song out here in the Bay that was made that's called "What You Ain't Gon' Do," so... [Zach laughs]Zach: That's 'cause if I didn't have to talk to you I wouldn't, so don't--Bärí: Go YouTube that, and you might want to make that the outro music, 'cause--[laughs] 'Cause yeah, it's fine for Jamie to do that to me, but if somebody else did that to me I would probably roll up on your desk. Zach: [laughs] "So explain this. Why did you send this?"Bärí: Right? "So let's talk, Bob. Let me tell you what you ain't gon' do."Zach: And what ain't gon' be. Okay, so no, that's--let me ask you this. So, like, what was the inspiration to write the book?Bärí: Many things. I think--and this is gonna be long-winded and, but I remember being five years old--and my mom is a retired teacher from the Oakland [Unified?] School District, and she and a couple of colleagues sat around our dining room table in our apartment and they created what ended up being the oratorical festival, which to our surprise was made into a documentary on HBO last month. And she didn't know and I didn't know, and she was like, "Oh, look at this!" And I was like, "Yeah! Also, why are you not in it?" But I let that go. I let that go. I'ma let that go and let God. [both laugh] And she actually--what's funny about it is she was like, "I don't care." Like, if somebody's talking about this and it still exists, like, that's enough. Like, that was her goal. And so I remember sitting there looking at that, and I remember participating in the first year, and I won in the first grade for, like, my category, and I was like, "Did you rig this?" And she was like, "No," but what it did was it gave me a voice, and she cultivated that throughout my entire life when I wasn't, you know, doing debate time in high school and junior UN League. Like, all of that. So I always felt like I had something to say and, you know, everything doesn't deserve a response. I mean, I'm still learning that at 40. [laughs] But she taught me, like, when something does deserve a response, make sure you have a very calculated thing to say about it, and so I started to do that, and then I decided to write, and it was writing articles and op-eds in New York Times and Fast Company and Fortune and Forbes, and it made me think, "There's a [?] there, and there are things that people are not discussing in these tech companies that I see because I'm in them, and we can't fix it if more people don't know it's a problem." So that's what led to it, but it was more than that. It was like, there are other people going through different struggles and different departments in other companies, in other industries, and what does that look like? And that's why I ended up talking to, you know, two black women in the spirits industry. The spirits industry is dominated by older white men. And these are two, you know, 30-something-year-old black women with their own spirits, and they're Christian, and so that was one of the things where I told the editor, "I don't know where you want to put them. Do you want to put them in race or gender or religion?" But yeah, they've had people ask them in their church, like, "What are you doing? This is wrong" They've had people talk to them in the spirits industry, like, "Hey, girl, do you know what you're doing?" You know, they get it on all levels, and then I was talking to [Rabya?]. She's fantastic. She's the woman who did the defense for [?] in... what is the name of the podcast? I'm blanking now. That's terrible. Serial, and she talked about being, you know, a woman, being Muslim, wearing a hijab, and people--she knows she's a good attorney, but people would want her to write the briefs and do the background work but not show up in court. Zach: It's interesting, 'cause that's the kind of stuff--there's a pattern of that, right? Of exploiting black labor or using black folks' thought capital, wringing them dry for it, only for you to then take center strage and publicity and really interface, right? like, you see it--I'm sure that you've--'cause you've [?] in tech. Like, you've been with StubHub and Facebook. Like, you've been all over the place, right? Like, you've seen where, like, a lot of times black folks will come from, like, these HBCUs or, like, with these engineering degrees and then, like, work in the back in security. Security, y'all, is not--like, not tech security. Securing the building. Anyway. [?, both laugh]Bärí: I will tell you the funniest thing to me when I got to Facebook was it was 2014--Facebook started in 2004, so it was 10 years afterward. I was the first black woman in legal. There weren't black people in legal, so I was the first black person and the first black woman. There were no AKAs at all in the company, so I was the first AKA in the company. They had no Links in the company. I was the first Link in the company. Like, what are you doing? Like, if you want a highly qualified workforce, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated will get that done for you, The Links, Incorporated will get that done for you. And there were only, like, three Deltas in the entire company.Zach: Shout-out to my sorority sisters. What's up, y'all? You know, and my mom is also an AKA, but you're really repping. Like, you really got on this podcast and, like, inserted that plug. I respect that. I like that a lot. Bärí: You know, plug plug plug, but that's the thing that I wanted people to understand too was, like, if you want a highly qualified workforce--and yes, they may not have direct, on-point experience, but we all have analogous experience from doing this non-profit work, and that's the thing that people discount or don't see. So, like, you want to hire Brad in accounting and he, like, did an internship for two months at his dad's firm. Like, what do you value?Zach: Right? Well, when you start holding them accountable--so when you hold them accountable to the standards that they give you, right? So if you say, well, "You know, you don't really have X, Y and Z. Show me somebody else who does have X, Y and Z experience." Bärí: Yeah, show me what's comparable. Zach: Yeah, and they pull 'em up and it's like, "Yo, this person was... he was, like, a DJ, or he worked at a GNC. Like, what are you talking about?" And so then things just crumble because it's like, "This is not about this." Like, you're creating rules--Bärí: Yeah. Like, that's not really what you want, and that's fine, but, like, let's call a thing a thing.Zach: I think, again, it just fits the meta narrative of white people, like, creating new rules for marginalized people. Bärí: Well, it's something that I actually told a long bost and said, like, every time I hit the benchmark, you move the goal posts. Are you aware of that? And he was like, "What are you saying?" And I said, "What I'm saying is what I said." Zach: I just said it, first of all.Bärí: Yeah. Like, child, when I tell--and that's the thing, like, my mom should've never told me I should advocate, because I literally said, I was like, "No. I hit this benchmark, and you told me if I did this it would be that. If I did X, it would be Y, but now you're saying, "Hm, but in order to get to Y you really need to do--" And I was like, "Nah, bruh. You said this, and I have it in writing." And I did that. So now what are we doing? And he was like, "Why are you so angry?"Zach: What do you mean?Bärí: I was like, "What do you mean? I'm not angry. I'm just telling you this is what you said and now you're going back on it," and he's like, "But you're angry," and I said, "I'm not angry. I'm just holding you accountable, and maybe you're not used to that, but that's also not my job. Like, that, you should go home and talk to your mom or your wife about that."Zach: But you know what though? Like, just as a thought exercise, let's just say I am angry. Okay. Bärí: Then what?Zach: Then what? I am angry, because you said you were gonna do something and you didn't, or you said it was gonna be one way and it isn't, or I have written documentation and you're gaslighting me by acting like this isn't real. So yeah, maybe I am angry. Does that make my point less valid?Bärí: And it doesn't. Like, these are stories that people go through in the book about how people gaslight them in the same way, whether it's about them being a woman or about them being black or about them being LGBTQ. There is such a powerful story in there from a woman who's Asian who talks about, like, how her family essentialy made her feel like she had to whitewash herself to be successful, and then when she got to college it was like, "I don't know how to relate to Asian people now." And then when she got in the workplace she's like, "Now I have to relate to both, and how does that work?" I mean, that's real. Like, you know, how you're socialized is how you end up projecting yourself to the world.Zach: That's right, unknowingly or unknowingly, and that's the scary part, right? Like, you end up doing this thing, like, where you're raised. You're just growing up. Like, you're raised a certain way, and then you hit the real world and you realize like, "Dang, I have a lot of internalized depression and, like, I didn't even know that." Bärí: Mm-hmm, and that is--that honestly is one of the--it's funny, 'cause my son, he's now 9-and-a-half, but when I had to finish this book towards the middle of October, I was so tired. When I tell you, child, on the last day before I had to hit the bit I was like, "Ugh." I stopped to watch, like, a Real Housewives marathon, and he came to me. He was like, "What are you doing?" And I was like, "Excuse you?" And he said, "Mommy, what are you doing?" And I said, "I'm taking a break." And he's like, "Are you done yet?" And I said, "Do you understand what break means?" And he was like, "Well, you let me take a break, but you give me a time. Like, you've been watching this for, like, three hours. Have you hit Send?" And I was like, "No, I haven't," and he's like, "Okay, so then you get one more hour and then you need to finish." But to me, what I took that as was, like, he wasn't being defiant, he was actually imposing the rules that I put on him, which I was like, "Oh, so my parenting isn't totally failing."Zach: No, he has internalized that level of accountability and he is giving you that same energy back.Bärí: Yeah, but the same energy I had to give him was, like--I listen to so many stories about, you know, marginalized communities, interviewing these folks, particularly black men and their experiences, and you don't get to mess up, and I've told him that, and so he's like, "Why are you sitting here watching a Real Housewives marathon for three hours? You haven't pressed Send. Like, girl, get it done." And I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're right." But it's that same energy. Like, you have to be twice as good to get half as far, and that story was all of these people in the book, which was crazy, because it cuts across everything. It cuts across disability. It cuts across sexuality. It's like you have to make up for who you are by doing more work.Zach: You know, I think about a conversation we just had with Ruchika Tulshyan, and we were talking about how black men are often times left ot of the corporate D&I initiatives, right? So now, sometimes people think they're being really radical when they talk about "the angry black man." It's like, okay, I get it. That is a thing, and that's real, but, like, just the larger conversation about how black men are treated, and like you said, we don't have opportunities to mess up, and the same thing could be said for black women of course, for sure. It's just this idea of labor and, like, having to do more just to--Bärí: And you're not getting farther. It's just--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. It's like, "I'm not doing more to get further or to get farther ahead. I'm doing more just to be equal. I'm doing more just to receive what I've earned," right?Bärí: I can tell you, my husband, he interviewed at a former employer of mine. My husband is 6'6" and, like, 235 pounds on a good day.Zach: Oh, he's lean lean.Bärí: Eh... I said on a good day. [laughs] But the way that he's built though is, like, very Michael Phelps. So he's broad. So he looks bigger than he is, and the feedback that they had is--and also, because of his size and because he is black, he has been socialized--and also he's light as hell. Like, I've had people ask me multiple times, "Oh, so your husband's biracial?" No, he isn't, but people just assume that he is. And so based off of his profile, he's very light-skinned, he's 6'6", he's built like a swimmer, and people--so he has been socially conditioned to basically... I don't want to say tamp down who he would be, but he's more docile. Super reserved, which is why our dynamic works, because I'll be, like, the person in your face, and he'll--Zach: Yeah, it's tough to be big when--yeah, I've learned that in a variety of different ways, but yeah. I keep that--I would say I'm probably more like you, Bärí. I'm like, "Ayo," but I'm like, 6'2", like, 280, so I'm like, a big dude. [laughs]Bärí: And you know that scares people.Zach: And I'm not that--and I'm lighter-skinned, but I'm not, like, light-skinned, right? So it's like, you know.Bärí: And that is so scary for me with our son, because our son is--he is darker than I am, and I'm brown-skinned, and he's already 5 feet and he's 9. Zach: Yeah, he's gonna be a big boy.Bärí: Yeah, he will be. And I believe he'll be taller than his dad, and even if he isn't, it's like, if you are 6'6" and you're a brown-skinned boy and you're in Oakland, I have to keep you safe. And so everything I do is about "How do we keep you safe?" And that sucks, 'cause, like, I wish you could just be free, but--Zach: And it's not... and not even to be a super downer, but I say this as someone who, shoot, maybe by the time of this podcast my daughter's gonna be here, but, like, I think about having black kids in this world and, like, there's the physical safety, but then there's a certain level of, like, psychological safety that you really can't protect them from, and, like, there's certain things they're gonna just have to--again, I'm not trying to be fatalist or, like, super down or whatever, but they just have to go. They're just going to have to experience. And it's, like, the feeling of being isolated or alone or otherized or not quite fitting in spaces. Like, that's a thing, right? That's a thing, and somebody that I really admire--like, there are a bunch of folks I really admire, but I think about, like, Bomani Jones, right? Like, he's somebody I see, like, in these spaces, and he never, like--on his platforms, like, ever talks about being one of the onlys or whatever. And some people are just built like that. He's just like, "I don't really whatever." He doesn't come across, like, really vulnerable in that way, and I don't know--and this is not about Bo specifically, but I think about, like, other black men in media or, like, in these really big profile spaces, and I wonder, like, to be successful in these hyper-white spaces, do you just have to have, like, a certain level of just, like armor, and just almost be really calloused?Bärí: I think you do. That's one of the things also that I learned from doing interviews in the book, and that's not even unique to us. Like, the folks who are dealing with LGBTQ gender issues and gender expression, they had to deal with that in terms of, like, people questioning them and, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Like, all of that stuff. And full discretion, like, I know Bo. Like, Bo and I are cool, and we've had that conversation, and part of it is like--to your point, it's not intentional. He doesn't mean to not say that. He just is like, "I am who I am, and you're gonna take it or you're not." And honestly, I've talked to him and have said, like, I want that energy for my son. I don't want him to feel like you have to have the burden of all black people ever on your back. Like, [?] does Bo, but he still reps us, and that's what I want, and that's what I want. Even, like, that I see with my husband. It's funny because I look at him--we're very, very different. He has had probably every advantage you can have in life. Like, he has gone to private school since he was born until he graduated. Like, he literally went to private pre-school, then he went to a private elementary school, private high school, he went to Harvard and then he went to Stanford, and I was like, "Bruh. You do not know, like, what it's like to live in, like, a real dorm." But he still came to--like, and he's from here too. He's from Oakland and came back and, like, tried to get in the valley and couldn't beat down the door. [Zach: Hm.] Right. And this is what everybody says that they want, right? These credentials. [Zach: Yeah, you know, he's checked every box.] And also, this is a light-skinned dude, right? So he's less-threatening. Zach: Right, and I'm sure he talks very proper. He enunciates his words well.Bärí: Child, I call him MC Carlton.Zach: So, like, literally his only knock is that he's black, and light black at that. Diet. [laughs]Bärí: Well, not even that. Also that was one of the things--so when I said my former... I had an employer who interviewed him. He got to the end of the round, and they decided that they didn't want him. They cut him. Like, they were hiring between him and one other person. They cut him because they said, "Oh, he didn't show enough passion. He wasn't willing to bang on tables." So when they gave me that--no, no, no, when they gave ME that feedback, I said, "Okay, so let's stop and envision this. Do you want a 6'6" 235-pound black man banging on tables? You're gonna be comfortable with that?" [Zach: And they said what?] They were like, "Well, what are you implying?" And I said, "I said what I said."Zach: Yeah, don't play with me. I'm not implying anything.Bärí: I said what I said. I didn't imply anything, I just said what I said. So if you saw that, you would feel safe? You would be cool? Zach: I mean, real talk. Would you? Answer the question.Bärí: They were like, "I mean, he just didn't show passion," and I was like, "That's not what I asked. What I asked was that if you saw a 6'6" bald black man banging a table to motivate engineers, you're cool with that?" And nobody could answer it definitively, and I was like, "And that's why you didn't hire him, so thank you, and I'ma go catch the shuttle." Like, I'm not gonna participate in this. This is bull. Zach: Yeah, this is ridiculous. It's super ridiculous.Bärí: 'Cause he's super reserved, and he's super reserved because he knows that he is a large black man and he can't do that. Zach: I remember I applied to--this is when I was first getting into consulting and it was between a few different firms, and one of the firms--and they were all, like, Big 4, right? So one of the firms I applied to, I went through the process and they said, "Oh, he was too passionate. He was too excited about the job. He smiled too much." So I'm just laughing at you, laughing at this situation, because it's like, okay, so you can't win for losing, right? I literally was the one smiling talking about how excited I was, and they said, "Well, he looked like he knew what he was doing, but he just seemed a little too smiley, a little too excited. He was a little too passionate for us." Bärí: But if he had been extra excited y'all would have been like, "Oh, my god. The black guy scared me because he's so big." [Zach: Exactly. [laughs]] And what I hate about this is, like, having to teach my son these rules of the road, because it's different in certain ways. He has my complex--actually he's darker than my complexion and he has his daddy's stature, and so you're gonna be extra targeted because you are a super brown boy and you're gonna be very tall, so you have to be on your P's and Q's at all times. Zach: Yeah, you're not wrong.Bärí: And he's so mad, because he does Kumon in addition to his regular schoolwork, and he's like, "Ugh, Mommy, I'm tired all the time," and I was like, "What do you think my life is? What do you think your daddy's life is? What do you think brown people's life is? Like, that's what it is, and like, I hate to tell you that, but you have to do more and do it faster and do it better, and you're gonna have to do it even faster and even better than your dad, because your dad gets some sort of benefit from having been, you know, a Harvard legacy, and he's light-skinned. Like, when you're light-skinned--light-skinnned [?] go farther, I'm sorry. It's true.Zach: We have yet to talk about colorism on the podcast, like, explicitly, but we need to talk about it because--Bärí: Let's talk about it. We can do it right now. [both laugh]Zach: I want to respect your time 'cause we went over, but nah, it's a global phenomenon, right? And I think, like, it goes beyond just, like, the African diaspora.Bärí: That's true. That's so true for our Indian comrades. That is very true for our Latinx comrades. Like, that's just the truth.Zach: I was in the HEB. HEB, for the folks who are not in Houston, is a huge grocer. So I was in HEB and I was getting some different, like, sauces and stuff, and I was in, like, the cultural food aisle and walked right on by some lightening cream. You know what I mean? So it's super common, and I think, like, even when you look at, like, these corporatized D&I groups, the Latinx folks are typically European--like, white-presenting, you know what I mean? Like, they're not, like--you don't see a lot of... again, it's common, but because it's so pervasive and--I don't want to say subtle, 'cause it's not subtle if you're paying attention, but it's just common, right? Like, the lighter-skinned people... it's hard to be dark and in power, you know? Bärí: Yeah, and that is for me just a personal thing that I want my son to embrace, and the reason being is, like, you know, everybody--my mom is light-skinned, and my dad was not, and they got divorced when I was three, so I don't even remember--like, I have no memory of living with them together, and so it was really my mom and her family, and everybody in her family is light-skinned and I'm the only brown person, and I was like, "What's going on here?" Yeah. But what's interesting here is my husband is light-skinned and I'm brown. Our daughter is lighter than my husband and our son is darker than me, so it's like... they don't match at all. [laughs] Zach: I love that y'all have, like, a whole kaleidoscope going though. Bärí: We do, and we actually have shirts. I have a whole shirt. Like, I need to send you one. It's real--it's ghetto. [laughs] It's a unicorn throwing money [?], and there are different shades of the unicorn, and I picked the different shades off the people in our family. So yeah, but I mean, like, get this money. Do this work. You can do it whatever shade you are. That's my point. But for him, I want him to understand there's gonna be different restrictions for you, because you're likely to walk out of here one day when you're sixteen and you're gonna be 6'6" and you're gonna be super brown, and you're really fine, and people need, you need, to be aware of the danger. And then opposite is like, "Your sister is light-skinned. She has very loose, curly hair, and so people are gonna treat her in a completely different manner and think she's fine even though she may not be, and--" Not that I'm saying she's not cute, she is, but I'm like, "You know, people--" Zach: Yeah, there's biases that come with being [?]. Yeah, there's a certain aesthetic that she could fit into that then makes it easier.Bärí: And she does, and I want to make sure that she doesn't buy into that and, you know, that's what we're dealing with her, and that's what I deal with in the book, like, how do you handle this? You have people in multiple categories. What are the proper terms? What are the issues that are around them? How do you deal with it? Like, even something as simple as the fact that I literally have never had braids or crochets or anything in my entire life, and I decided to get it last summer because I was tired of doing my hair and then my daughter's hair. And my daughter has a looser curl than I do, but her hair is thick. Like, I'm not spending three hours on a Sunday doing this, so I took her to the salon so that they could do it, and then I started getting crochets, but now she's like, "I want to go to the salon!" So now it's like, okay, now we have to reset in terms of privilege, right? Because everybody doesn't get to go to the salon. Like, my momma did my hair until I was 13, so holla at Grandma. [both laugh]Zach: So let's get back to this book, right? It's coming out March 31st. Eye-opening interviews. The goal is to help jumpstart conversations about identity, privilege and bias, y'all. The book is called Diversity in the Workplace. Listen, y'all, make sure you check it out. Right now, maybe because of that rona we might be having these conversations on Zoom or Skype. I don't--Bärí: Now, I think you're gonna be quarantined 'cause of that rona anyway, so you might as well read this while--Zach: You definitely should. You know what, why don't you challenge yourself?Bärí: And there's an audiobook version too if you don't even want to read it. Somebody can just read it to you. Zach: Come on, now. Like, challenge yourself to read the group, and then that way when you go back to work--Lord say the same, the rona won't be here forever, okay? So you eventually will have to go see people, right?Bärí: I mean, the rona won't. It will be replaced by something else.Zach: Oh, goodness. You're right though.Bärí: I mean... it's Trump, so...Zach: Yeah, that's true. [laughs] Bärí: Something else might kill us in the meantime, I don't know.Zach: Who knows? I don't know. They said they got all these locusts over in Africa. There's, like, hundreds of billions of them over there. I don't know.Bärí: I saw that too, and I was like, "What disease are they carrying?"Zach: Listen. Bärí: Okay, I'ma let that go. Zach: Shutter the thought. [laughs] So look, y'all, this has been Living Corporate. We do this, right? We have conversations. We're really excited and we're thankful--you know, all jokes aside, please make sure you're washing your hands, okay? We have information from the CDC in the show notes. You know, hopefully you're washing your hands as you listen to this podcast. Like, wash your hands, okay? Soap is important also. Now--Bärí: Very. Water is not--Zach: Water is not soap. I want to--hold on. Sound Man, put that little record scratch in here. [record scratch] Water is not soap, okay? So you want to use some--you know, use the hard, industrial stuff. Use that Irish Spring if you need to. I personally use [?] because I am bougie, but you can use--Bärí: I use Olay, but, you know, whatever.Zach: Use something that is frankly a little abrasive, okay? Get that first, like, half-layer off your skin. Like, wash your hands, y'all. And then, you know, just take care of yourself, you know? Fist bumps and head nods only. You know, this would actually be a good opportunity for allyship and learning.Bärí: Well, here's the thing. So even with the fist bumps... so with the social distancing blah-blah-blah, it's supposed to be six feet. If you bump into someone, no, you're not within the six feet.Zach: You know what, you're right, no fist bumps. So this would be a good time actually for those--Bärí: Head nod at people and wave.Zach: So we all know how to do a head nod, but this may be the time for my less-melanated folks, my aspiring allies, to learn how to effectively head nod. Don't throw your neck out of your body when you do it. Bärí: Oh, I didn't know that was a thing.Zach: Just nodding too hard, right? Like, the head nod is supposed to be subtle, nuanced. Right? Like, maybe it's a cultural thing. I feel like in the South, like, our head nod is different, and I definitely believe, between the various melanin levels, head nods can be various levels of aggression. That's all. That's all I mean. Maybe a little salute also, with two fingers at the head. Just "Hello, I see you over there." But just be careful. Take care of yourselves, and we'll get through this together. In the meantime, make sure y'all check out the links in the show notes as well for Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege and Bias written by Bärí A. Williams. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. Peace.

Zach chats with Ruchika Tulshyan, award-winning author & CEO and founder of Candour, about equity's place in the future of work. Ruchika explains to us what it is about the diversity, equity and inclusion space that had her commit so much of her life to it, and she ties her breadth of experience back to her childhood in Singapore, where she grew up with people of all different nationalities, cultures and religions. She takes us through her career journey and graciously shares her struggles and triumphs along the way.Connect with Ruchika on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.Visit her personal website. You can find out more about Candour by clicking here.Check out Ruchika's Harvard Business Review contributor page and get reading!Read the pieces mentioned in the show, If You Don't Know How to Say Someone's Name, Just Ask and Women of Color Get Asked to Do More “Office Housework.” Here’s How They Can Say No.Learn more about the books Superior and So You Want to Talk About Race.Visit our home page!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach with Living Corporate. That's right. I'm back. It's probably Tuesday, or maybe you're listening to this later. It's, like, a Wednesday or a Thursday. I don't know, but we're recording this, and we're recording this, of course, we're having real talk in a corporate world. We center and amplify underrepresented voices in the corporate space, and by corporate space I just mean at work, okay? So this is not, like, an elitist thing, right? So, like, if you work at Wendy's, hey, this is for you too, okay? If you work at Goldman Sachs, this is for you too. And you're probably a white man listening to this, and if so, hey, man, thank you for listening to the podcast. I hope that you learn something from this. But this is for everybody is my point, and we do this, we amplify and center underrepresented experiences, by having underrepresented folks--these are, like, influencers, journalists, activists, educators, public servants, entrepreneurs, executives, recruiters, anybody, really, who is able to really come on and just have some real talk with us. And we've had some amazing guests every single week. I mean, every single week we have some fire--I mean, fire fire fire guests, and this week is no different, okay? 'Cause you know who--I don't even know if y'all know who we have, but I'm up about to tell you. We have Ruchika Tulshyan. Ruchika is a diversity & inclusion strategist, award-winning author and journalist. She is the author of "The Diversity Advantage: Fixing Gender Inequality In The Workplace," a book on strategies for organizations to advance women. Ruchika's company, Candour advises a number of organizations on diversity, equity and inclusion strategy. Ruchika is also the 2019 inaugural distinguished professional-in-residence for Seattle University's communication department. Ruchika, hold on. I've gotta let the air horns fly. How are you doing?Ruchika: I am doing very well, Zach. I'm so excited to be here. [children cheering sfx, both laugh] I love it, I love it. I really do.Zach: We gotta get into it. We gotta get into. You're an author, a journalist, an international speaker, and a CEO of your own consulting firm. Like, what is it about this space, about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, that had you commit so much of your life to it?Ruchika: You know, it wasn't planned at all, Zach. And I grew up outside the United States. I'm from Singapore originally, so I think about food all the time. In fact, right now while I'm talking I'm thinking about "What's my next meal?" But--Zach: What's your favorite food?Ruchika: So, you know, being from Singapore, we eat everything, but probably anything Asian, anything with noodles or rice. I can eat rice for breakfast, lunch, dinner, supper, snack, midnight snack. [laughs] You get the drift.Zach: Yes. No, I do. So do you like pad thai?Ruchika: I'll never order it in the United States 'cause I've had it in Thailand quite a few times now.Zach: Oh, my gosh. What it is like in Thailand?Ruchika: It's so different. It's not sweet. It's just--it's got this beautiful... it's like umami, you know? Like, there's a different flavor altogether. So yeah, I haven't--you know, I tried it once or twice in the U.S. in different cities, and I was like, "Yeah, this is not going to be the thing for me."Zach: You know, it's interesting that you say that, because I remember--so I went to Japan. I was in Japan for a couple weeks last year--well, in 2018--and I remember just eating the food there. It's like--it's crazy that, like, most Americans don't have all of their toes cut off from diabetes with how much sugar we have in our food, right?Ruchika: Yes, yes, yes. And that's--I mean, I could talk about this all day, because, you know, I think about this all the time. And again, I think it's all related, right? And I think even talking about diversity and inclusion, like, really understanding people, finding a common language based on food I think is something that's really special and a very, very important way to connect with people.Zach: You know, I 100% agree. And just one last thing about the food, 'cause you talked about, like, when you have something in the States and then you--for me, 'cause I'm from here and, like, all my people, as far as I can go back, are from here, right? But when I went to Japan I had sushi in Japan. I said, "Wait a second." [laughing] Ruchika: Right? Isn't it completely different?Zach: I said, "What?" I just was--I mean, I had, like, a spiritual moment. It was just like, [blessings come in sfx, both laugh]. I said, "My gosh, my taste buds." Ruchika: Isn't it? And all their food, everything. I mean, if you've had chocolate in Japan, if you've had, like, cookies in Japan, if you've had a cake in Japan, it's like nothing you've ever tasted before, you know?Zach: Yes, and I'm just--and how conditioned I've been eating here, it's like--I'm used to, like, if I eat something, like, a big meal, I'm used to be a little--like, a little sleepy afterwards, right? So I'm like, "Wait, why can I still walk? I can still walk around and, like, think cognitively after eating this meal. [?]" Okay, so I'm sorry. Long segue aside about food--but it's important though. It's a connection to culture. I'm right there with you. Ruchika: So we were talking about diversity and inclusion, right? [both laugh] And how did I get into it? Well, you know, it's connected. You know, it is connected. So I think I was kind of built for this in some way, although it wasn't planned. So growing up in Singapore, I just grew up with people of all different nationalities, all different cultures, all different religions, and it was very much a way of my life, and I moved around quite a bit when I was younger. But what it really exposed me to was the fact that, you know, at the end of the day we're all the same, you know? In many ways we want the same things. We really, really just want to be happy. We want to be heard. We want to feel valued and respected. And so I really grew up with that concept, you know, as a part of my life, just the way it was. You know, my friends were from all over the world, my teachers were from all over the world, and I really grew up with sort of an idealistic, almost Kumbaya sort of belief in the world, and when I moved to the United States about eight years ago, that was a very big shock for me, you know? And I really saw what I still think in some ways is modern-day segregation. You know, I really saw it in full force. There's a stat that three out of four white Americans don't have a single friend of color, and I think that's really concerning, because I grew up in a very different sort of environment, and it really made me see the--it's awesome. I mean, just talking about food, you know? Being exposed to different cultures, different types of food. I feel so lucky, and I actually think people are missing out, and so for a vast majority of Americans, the most diversity they ever experience is actually in the workplace. So, you know, I'm sort of setting myself up to saying that, you know, that was the early part of my life where I really felt, you know--I just had a connection, but I never thought that I would work in this field. I didn't even know this field existed. And what changed for me is I began my career as a journalist and was really happy about it, loved it, then moved to Seattle and sort of transitioned into tech, because that's what everyone does here, and it was the most challenging experience of my life, you know? I really encountered sexism and racism that I just wasn't--you know, I didn't think that it could happen to me. You know, I really grew up with the mindset that you work hard, you work smart, you put your head down and you do your thing--and sure, you know, you raise your hand for opportunities, you're confident, et cetera, but I really didn't think that it would make a difference, you know? My gender, my race, sort of the way I scope, my accent, my name. I didn't think these things mattered, right? I know, so naive of me now that I reflect back on it. And it was a very rude, painful emotional awakening and really kind of created that empathy in me where I said to myself, "This cannot be the way that more than half the population is being treated in the workplace, right? And these are their experiences," and as a journalist I started collecting experiences. I started collecting stories and case studies and even data, right, and research, and it was very clear that something had to change. So I wrote in my book, five years ago, at a time where people said, like, the way that women can, you know, advance in the workplace is they need to lean in, right? That was sort of the narrative of the day, that it was something lacking in women, there was something lacking in people of color, and they had to change, and I'm really glad that we're thinking about this as a systems change that actually doesn't--you know, if you have been stereotyped against, if you have had--you know, if people have this preconceived narrative about who you are and what your potential is in the workplace, it doesn't matter how much you lean in, you know? I mean, like my friend Minda Harts says--you know, CEO of The Memo and has an awesome book out on it, on [?] of women of color at work, Zach. I know you know her. It doesn't matter how hard you lean in if you're a woman of color. You are just not going to be able to get ahead until those systemic biases have been addressed, and so that's what got me into this work, and it's a long-winded answer.Zach: It's long-winded. This is a podcast. [both laugh] But no, you're absolutely right. I'm right there with you, right? And it's interesting, when you talk about, like, systemic versus, like, individual actions--I'll say for me, it's been frustrating, like, just transparently, like, being a black man in majority-white spaces. And I'm in, like--I'm in professional services, right? So consulting, and a lot of times when there's issues that come up when you're dealing with folks or people want to frame you as being "angry" or "frustrated" or whatever the case is, like, whatever trope you want to kind of pull out, right, and then you share those frustrations with, like, other people who are not underrepresented, who are a member of the majority, their feedback or coaching is often, like, things that you need to do and change, but it's like, "Yeah, that's not really the problem." And not to be arrogant. We all have places where we can grow and mature, and emotional intelligence and social intelligence and personal awareness, all of those things are very important. At the same time, like, have the moral courage to actually talk about the systems at play and how there are a lot of things that really aren't our fault. Like, there are things that are being done to us or that we are--you know, it's asymptomatic of larger systemic challenges, and it's tough though. It's tough to have those conversations, especially for folks in the majority. Some of them literally just don't know how. Some of them it's just so uncomfortable they don't--you know, how much of that is real? How much of that is, like, you imagining it, right? But to me I'm just noticing more and more--like, I'm getting increasingly discouraged when you have these conversations, you know, and it's like, "Yo, can we just have a conversation about, like, why is it that this person constantly calls this person or these types of people too opinionated or loud or aggressive or angry or--" Whatever the case is, right? Like, you kind of see it over time. And it's funny that you bring that up about Minda Hart. Shout-out to Minda Hart. What's up, Minda? In fact, hold on. I'ma get some air horns for you and Minda. [both laugh] So what you're speaking to about leaning in, right, and how the concept of leaning in, it was promoted by a white woman with--and I recall there being major articles written and, like, championed about the fact that women of color can't lean in, exactly what you just said, and so I'm curious, when you talk about your focus on gender equity, what does that look like, and how are you introducing intersectionality within the concept of gender equity? Like, how does that practically show up for you in the work that you do?Ruchika: So Zach, let me tell you one of the biggest career mistakes I ever made in my life, and that was to write a book that overall lacks intersectionality. And my students will tell you this, because I make the poor things read my book for one of my classes. And so, you know, every class we have this discussion about, you know, the fact that my book lacks intersectionality as well as that it really treats gender as a binary, right? Which is fully my fault and also a big part of the larger system of publishing and editing, et cetera, where that, you know, concept of intersectionality is still lacking, right? And I don't know--even right now, I don't know if management theory has really caught up to the fact that you really need to have a very intersectional approach when you think about gender equality, right? Like, it is not just about the challenges that white women face. It is really about--if you really want to make change, it is about looking at the intersection between how women of color, both those intersections, experience the workplace, and then especially, from there, expanding that to include other marginalized identities in the workplace. So I will be the first to admit that my book lacks intersectionality, and my hope is, in all the work I've done since and will continue to do, I absolutely cannot--you know, I absolutely cannot take an intersectional approach. That being said, I really think, again, the key to making a difference when it comes to workplace gender equity is having a situation where the voice of the person who is the most marginalized in the room is centered so that the workplace works for all, right? So if the workplace was built by, say, a cis-hetero white man and that's who the workplace is built for, if you do not consider the experience of what, you know, a woman of color, a black woman for example, a trans black woman of color, what's the experience, you know? And who may have, you know, disabilities, cognitive, temporary, physical, whichever--or a combination. If you do not start there, then you're going to continue perpetuating systems which alienate, you know, women, and especially women of color across the board, you know what I mean? So you really need to start with the person who's the most vulnerable who is having really the most challenging experiences in the workplace and then expand from there and think about "What is it that they need to be successful," right? And how can that be incorporated into the fabric of what you do? And that's why part of what I love to do, I love speaking to large corporations. We just talked about someone who works at a large corporation who we both know, but really for me the--you know, I also really love working with smaller teams and startups, because when you can build intersectionality, when you can build inclusion and equity into the very fabric of your organization, right, when you're building it from, like, one to five to ten to twenty employees, that is where you can really make a change, and I have seen that happen personally.Zach: You know what? So first of all, you know what I'm saying, like, while you were talking I didn't want to cut you off, but in my mind when you said--when you, like, owned up and you said, "My book does not address intersectionality," I was like [record scratch sfx]. 'Cause I was like, "Wow, that's incredible, because everybody--" I want everybody to stop. Stop what you're doing. You're driving your car, you're doing whatever you're doing--especially you, diversity, equity and inclusion supposed subject matter experts--stop and see what Ruchika just did, okay? I asked her a question, a direct question about a very important concept if you want to consider yourself a diversity, equity and inclusion expert. You see what she didn't do? She didn't get all defensive and fragile. She outright owned something that she didn't do and her commitment to improve in the future. Some of y'all need to learn from that. I'm talking to you. Yes. If you think I'm talking to you, I'm talking to you, okay? Shout-out to you. That was dope. Ruchika: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome.Ruchika: And listen, I'm not--you know, I don't at all claim to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and I do want to double-down on this point. Like, I've said it before, and I'm gonna say it again. I think growing up both outside this country as well as sort of in some way out of, you know, sort of the Western way of living has meant that I have had to approach DEI in the United States with a tremendous amount of humility and a learning mindset, right? I mean, in the country I grew up in, gay marriage is not legalized, right? I didn't have any friends growing up who were out. The first time I actually came in contact with someone who was openly gay, for example, would have been sometime in my 20s. You know, openly, right? So what I'm trying to say is that you can have been brought up a certain way. The people you love may believe that, for example, having friends of different colors or treating people from different backgrounds equally, maybe you grew up thinking that's not the way life should be, but my point is you can grow. My point is you can learn, my point is that it takes a tremendous amount of humility and learning to get to that place, and you absolutely can get there.Zach: Amen. No, I agree, and I think we're coming into an era where people are just getting, like, less and less tolerant of, like, corporatized nonsense, right? So, like, there's going to need to be, eventually, some sort of reckoning with, like, the systems at play. In fact, we're in a unique position because it's an election year where we almost have kind of, like, a countdown. We know one way or the other there's going to be an--like, there's going to be another explosion, and there are going to be more and more people supposedly very surprised all over again, but I think--I also think that just, like, societally and generationally, like, we also have folks and younger folks who weren't able to vote who saw the nonsense last time but weren't in the same position who are in a different position this time. So I just think that the--I think that the dialogue is going to still be just as present if not more present than it was in 2016, so the imperative to really--like, to your point about humility and being willing to learn, centering the most vulnerable and continuing to seek to grow and develop yourself in this space is important, because I just don't think that some of the trends that I saw in this, like, environment over the last decade I don't think is gonna be sustainable this upcoming decade.Ruchika: It isn't. And you know, Zach, while you were talking I was thinking of this idea. You know, coming to this country as an immigrant, my experience was definitely steeped in and very much the way that I was told that I would be successful in this country was to uphold white supremacy, right? And I have to acknowledge that for us to really make a change, we need to address anti-blackness in a lot of immigrant communities, including the ones I'm part of, south Asian primarily. And I think it's very important to really drill down into that a little bit more, you know? And if we do want to see a change, even in the workplace, you know, I work with tech companies, and there's a lot of, like, "Oh, we don't have a problem with people of color. Like, there are a lot of Asians doing really well in our tech company." I've had leaders write to me--I used to write a column for a supplement of the Seattle Times, and I had people all the time from large tech companies being like, "Oh, but our CEO is a person of color." "Oh, but our," you know, whatever it is, you know, "Our top people are people of color," and I really had to stop and say, "Listen, it's not about people who are already represented in the workforce. If you really want to make a change, can you tell me how many black people are leading at this company? Can you tell me how many black [?] people [?]?"Zach: Ooooooooh, goodness gracious, Ruchika. What you talking about? [laughs]Ruchika: You know, how many indigenous women, for example, are [?] at your company? Then let's talk about equity.Zach: Well, 'cause we're not a monolith. And you're absolutely right, right? There's this idea--and there's terms that we use, and, you know, this is the thing. Living Corporate is a positive space, you know? If we make any, like, direct statement--we have real talk, but, like, we're not--you know, we're not trying to be overly mad all the time, right? [both laugh] As hard as it is, but, like, one thing that grinds my gears is, like, people using the term "people of color" when we're really talking about specific underrepresented groups. Like, let's actually name and give those groups the respect--like, because if you say black people, that's already a very complex group. So, like, let's at least say--if we're talking about black people, let's just say black people. If we're talking about south Asians, let's say south Asians. But, like, when we say people of color, it's like--you know, I don't know if you have it, but every black person who's listening to this podcast knows what I'm talking about. You have a junk drawer in your house? It has, like, nails and, like, batteries and everything in there, right? Ketchup packets. And that's really what "people of color" is, it's just a junk drawer term. We're just gonna throw--if you're not eggshell white you're a person of color, right? And it's like, how do we break out of that? And so let me ask you this then. When you ask those follow-up questions and you start asking them to be specific, you know, and you ask, like, "Well, how many of this particular group do you have?" Then what does the conversation--what does that shift look like in conversation?Ruchika: Most people are tremendously uncomfortable and don't want to engage, right? And that's also--I'm happy to get off this topic because then I can talk all day, but part of it is the terminology and the language is flawed. In the same way "people of color" is flawed, so is "Asians." [?] Indians and Indian-Americans, you know, capture some of the highest income groups in this country, but in the same category of south Asians--just if you look at the south Asian subcontinent--[Bangladeshi?] immigrants have the lowest rates of poverty, some of the lowest rates of poverty in this country. So what I'm saying is already the terminology that we use to describe, you know, race is extremely flawed. And by the way, I'd like to shout-out to a book that I'm reading that I love already. It's called Superior by Angela Saini. She's a British science journalist. I'm actually part of the team bringing her out to Seattle to speak at our university here. And I just love this book, because it really dives into how race science came about and the very flawed logic that is being used to show that there are differences biologically between the races--which, by the way, she argues very, very well, using tons and tons of data and research to show that that's absolutely not true, [that?] race is a social categorization and we absolutely must acknowledge the experience of different people socially because of, you know, these categorizations. Biologically, there really aren't that many differences. And so I think my point--you know, I'm gonna go off on a tangent here, but people don't want to engage because we are so comfortable with this idea, "Oh, no. Let's not talk about race." That's a very interesting thing that I've really noticed here in the United States. In fact, I did some of my tertiary education in the United Kingdom, and then I, as I mentioned, grew up in Singapore and moved around quite a bit. What I found is that really in the United States, people don't want to talk about race, and as a result of not talking about race, they uphold racism, you know? It's just--it's baffling to me, it really is, and I think if you can't address it--and, you know, I've now moved to Seattle, which is really--you know, another shout-out, my friend Ijeoma Oluo's book So You Want to Talk About Race. Excellent book. I highly recommend it to every single person out there. Amazing. I make my class read it every year, and they're so grateful. After my boring book they go to her book and they're so grateful. You should see the evaluation papers. They're like, "[?] boring." [laughs] But my point is without us really naming and owning some of the huge systemic barriers we've had in the workplace, I think we're just gonna let the status quo run, and I think you have to be brave enough to get super uncomfortable and address those challenges.Zach: You know, and it's interesting you say that, right? And of course I agree. It leads me to the next question I have, which is recently Goldman Sachs announced that they won't be taking companies public without at least one diverse board member, and then they went on to emphasize gender diversity. My first question is do you think that this is substantive, and then two, or Part B to that, do you believe black and brown men are largely excluded from DEI initiatives, and if so, why?Ruchika: Okay, so firstly do I think that it's substantive? I don't think so, not at all. I think actually the word diverse--like, I think "diverse board member" already is just problematic. And here's another shout-out. You know, Aubrey Blanche talks about how you cannot--the word "diverse person" is actually problematic. Like, there's no such thing as a diverse person, right? [?] a white person is diverse, right? So diverse itself, you know, like, back to language, like, name what you mean, and what you mean here is "underrepresented," right? Like, that's what Goldman Sachs meant by one diverse board member. What they meant was underrepresented or underestimated. [?], but underestimated board member is what they were talking about, right? So already that training is problematic. And I think if you emphasize gender diversity, I really think you're missing the boat, right? Are female founders underrepresented and underestimated? Absolutely, right? But here's real talk. In the Fortune 500, 19% of the C-Suite is made up of white women. Only 4% is made up of women of color, right? So if you're really talking about systemic change, if you're talking about not trying to go through the same systems that are already in place, then you really have to look at race. Without that intersectionality, without actually naming that not only do we mean one board member from a underrepresented background in terms of gender but also race, you're just really perpetuating the problem, right? So I think that--I just think they didn't go far enough. I like the idea. I like what they're trying to say. And we also know that in many, many cases, white women do perpetuate similar systems of patriarchy, right? If you talk to any woman of color in the world, she has a story for you about that.Zach: It's so interesting that you say that, right? Because I really want to talk about the role that white women play in upholding--not only upholding white supremacy, but also ironically--or unironically--patriarchy as well, right? And so it's like, what--I think there's more research and work to be done, and/or I'd love to just bring on more folks to just really deep dive into that subject, because I think it's worth discussing. I think that it's--as a black, straight man, I benefit from patriarchy, and I have my own privileges. I do believe that white women sit in a very unique position in America, or just in the world in general, in that they are an oppressed group but also heavily benefit from white supremacy, and so it's just curious. And you're absolutely right, I've talked to plenty of women, black and brown women, who have their own experiences and frustrations, and I've seen them as well. I've seen oppression in action at work. But I do find it to be an underdiscussed topic. I know that there are articles and things out there. I still just think there's many more conversations we could have around it. I'm curious as to what's gonna need to happen for us to, like, just more unabashedly address the topic head on though.Ruchika: Absolutely, and I think it's, again, that being comfortable with getting really uncomfortable, because I think so much of, again, sort of the leftover of workplaces that were designed for and have been sort of continued on by white men, I think it's very much like you don't talk politics at work, you don't--you don't bring your sort of real, authentic self to work, and we know that that's changing with the next generation. I did want to answer your question about black and brown men largely being excluded from DEI initiatives. I do think so. I think black and brown men are--I think they do face some very specific and very, very difficult challenges. From a research standpoint, they--you know, we know research can always be flawed, but McKinsey's Women in the Workplace study, their report--I in fact have it in front of me--shows that, at entry-level, men of color represent 16% of entry-level jobs in corporations, and when it comes to the C-Suite, that's down to 9%, where with women of color it's 17% at entry-level and 4% in the C-Suite. So we know that, you know, while there's a huge underrepresentation of men of color, the percentage of underrepresentation of women of color relative to how many actually enter the workforce is really stark, right? Like, a quarter versus closer to half. So my point here is I think when you look at the data, you know, I can see why perhaps the experiences of men of color are sometimes left out and excluded from DEI initiatives. I do think it's a very, very important part of--again, if you really want to make substantial change, you do have to include them. The only other way, again academically, I've looked at this is what I've found is that when you address the two historically most underestimated identities in the workplace, right, or historically lower-status identities--and that's gender and race, so women of color--that's where you can really make a big difference, because if you look at white women, they benefit from, you know, one high status, the [?] of being white, but one low status, and for men of color it's patriarchy. You benefit from it. So I think there's this--I think it's a very delicate dance, but do I think we should build corporate diversity initiatives without including the experience of men of color? Absolutely not. I think again you will miss out, and again you're gonna leave things out that really are crucial to making sustainable change.Zach: So you speak about change and you talk about, like, the future. You know, it's curious, 'cause as millennials--as we've entered the workforce, you know, there was this collective anticipation from thought leaders around "Okay, yo, watch out, 'cause millennials about to shake it up. We about to cause a ruckus, you know? It's about to be crazy over here," and there was a lot of that talk. I'm curious, you know, how have you seen that in the work that you do practically, the infusion of the millennial generation, and then what, if any, shifts do you anticipate as Generation Z comes into the workforce in the next decade?Ruchika: You know, I don't really 100% know how to answer this honestly. I mean, I teach students who are at the sort of cusp of millennial, Gen Z, and it's really amazing to see, you know? They're very, very different, at least in the sense of being at least aware of some of the huge problems we see in the world today. I mean, they're the people most impacted by climate change, for example. And I do see that there is a very early understanding of social justice and why this is important, and that really gives me a lot of hope, right? You know, when I taught five years ago, my students weren't that socially justice-minded in the way that they are right now. So already in five years I'm starting to see a huge change. At the same time, I think, again, they're inheriting systems that were built with patriarchy and white supremacy at the core of them. So what's interesting and exciting to see is many reject that, and they're starting their own businesses, they're doing their own thing, they're in their own side hustles and their side gigs, and that's really interesting, and that's a very important part of the change of the future of work. At the same time, I think without addressing those systems of oppression, you are still gonna find many millennials who will continue to co-opt into them for many reasons, right? I mean, this is the generation that's the most financially insecure in close to a century, and they're really, really struggling with a lot of the mistakes that the generations before them made, and so I think that there's no perfect answer for this. I think what I will say is that it's exciting to see at least the data showing that millennials and Gen Z really care deeply about, you know, working in a place where they can live out their values, and they would actually--a significant portion of them would actually rather take lower pay than work for a place where their values don't align, and that's really exciting. That is a very different way of looking in the workplace. And again, maybe sometimes--I mean, I'm a millennial. Maybe I wouldn't be doing the work I'm doing if I was not a millennial, right? Like, maybe I would have had that terrible experience in tech and I would have been like, "Well, you know, this is just the way that it is, and life's like that, and I need to continue." And I just want to admit that there's tremendous privilege in me being able to do that. I mean, I talk to immigrant women whose ability to live in this country is tied to working for a job no matter how toxic it is, right? I talk to many, many, many people who have had to continue working in workplaces that were terrible for their mental health, terrible for their health in general, and they just had to, right? For a variety of financial reasons, health insurance, et cetera. So I do want to acknowledge that.Zach: So let's do this. Let's talk a little bit about you, right? You have so much going on, and so I just want to make sure that we really give you space for you to share what you're excited about this year and just what you're focused on.Ruchika: Thank you. Indeed, I do a lot. I don't like to talk about myself, but I will say my goal for myself this year is to do a lot more speaking based on some of the topics that I care about, and, you know, it's really inspirational when I'm able to address a room of people, and I've had people come up to me and say, "Thank you so much. This is the first time our leader has heard about unconscious bias and the experience of women of color," or "This is the first time we've actually had language around what diversity, equity and inclusion means, and thank you for saying the things that you've said." So I think part of my goal for this year is just to continue being a very vocal advocate for women of color, for people of color in the workplace, keeping an intersectional lens when it comes to, you know, diversity efforts. So that's something I definitely want to do. I do write for Harvard Business Review, and my hope is to do a lot more work for them as the year comes along. I would like to share one article with you, Zach. Actually there are two. One that I'm really, really proud of is one I wrote very recently about why it's important to pronounce people's name correctly. I know I have a challenging name and an unfamiliar name in this country, and it really makes all the difference if you think about inclusion, and as time goes on this absolutely includes people's pronouns and other sort of very subtle ways of making sure that you include people, and one of the easiest ways is to make an effort to get their name right. And so it sounds so simple, and it makes all the difference, because my name, 9 out of 10 times, is mispronounced. Like, even when I pronounce it correctly for people, they don't want to listen, and I think that is something that really needs to change. So there's that. The other is I really hope to continue writing about and speaking about topics that, like, generally we don't easily talk about, and for me one of those is talking about office housework. So a couple of years ago I wrote an article about how women of color are asked to do more office housework, right? So this means all the non-glamorous work. It can be actually, you know, correlated to housework, like, you know, ordering lunch, doing the dishes, whatever it is, tidying up after meetings, but it also relates to the non-glamorous work at work, you know, like taking meeting notes or sitting on committees that don't lead to promotion or mentoring the interns, for example. Like, i t's not gonna impact your performance review, and so I really want to continue shedding light on these topics that people generally don't talk about, but they do actually make a huge difference when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion. Zach: Man, shout-out to you, Ruchika. This has been super dope. I'm so excited. I love your work, I love your writing. We're gonna make sure we have all of your information in the show notes, including the books that you referenced, and then, like, let's just make sure--you know, you're a friend of the show. Like, you're welcome back at any time. So if you have anything you want to plug or you want to promote, you come here. We got you, okay? I'm serious, we got you. Let's see here. Before we let you go, any parting words you have for us, for the folks listening in, for the--so we call... so did you watch The Avengers?Ruchika: You know, I did not.Zach: Okay. All right, so--Ruchika: In my defense, I have a 3-year-old, and life is very full. [laughs]Zach: No, super respect. I definitely get it. My wife and I are welcoming our first kid.Ruchika: Oh, congratulations.Zach: Thank you very much. I was gonna make a reference. So, like, on Living Corporate, we call aspiring allies Buckys, because in The Avengers movie, Ruchika, Captain America had a friend, and his name was Bucky Barnes. But, see, Bucky Barnes got hurt, and he had to get some medical help, but his medical problems were so complex they had to actually send him to Wakanda, which is this fictionalized African nation--Ruchika: I know Wakanda. [laughs]Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so--[laughs] and so then he goes to Wakanda, and they end up calling Bucky "The White Wolf," you see what I'm saying? Because he's, like, a friend of the Wakandans. So, you know, it's a long way of saying we have a lot of Buckys listening in, aspiring allies, and I'm just curious if you have any words for them, for the Wakandans listening in, and for everybody in-between.Ruchika: Ooh, wow. Okay, that is such a big sort of closing. [Zach laughs] So listen, I'll start first with the Buckys. I think here's the deal. You know, I think it's always--it's easy to, like, talk and believe that your frame of reference and your narrative is the most important or the most significant, and I think what we need to really start doing is to step back and listen. Like, literally listen and open up your networks and open up sort of your privilege and open up your world for people who haven't had that experience, right? And what I mean is, like, for example, I'm a small business owner. Buy from me. Don't come to me and say, "Oh, you're doing great things. I'm so proud of you." Buy from me. Refer me, you know? [cha-ching sfx] Yeah, literally. Like, it's literally that, you know? And if someone's doing great work at your company and, you know, you're a white man with a lot of influence, recommend the woman of color. "Hey, you know who should run this meeting? This person who never gets to do that," you know what I mean? So for me it's about moving away from being a passive ally into an active accomplice, and I've heard this framing from a few different people. And so it's really about being very active. So that's my thoughts about, you know, Buckys. When it comes to people of color, when it comes to people who have been underestimatd, I had an experience last week where I was underrepresented. It was really hard. It really, really hurt. I think in those moments you really need to find your people. Like, you need to find your people. And they can be Buckys or they can be fellow Wakandans, but you need to find your people that you can really come clean with, that you can sit down and be like, "Hey, this horrible thing happened to me. Tell me I'm not crazy," because for a long time, especially everything that actually led me to this moment, has been me pretending like, "No, everything's great. I'm fine. Yeah, some moments are tough, but otherwise I'm doing great. I'm working super hard." And I think we forget, like, we need those mental health checks. We need people who we can rely on, who can navigate some of the really, really hard stuff you have to navigate when you are underestimated at work. Does that work? Does that help? [laughs]Zach: Does that work? Let me tell you something, you're dropping mad bombs. [Flex bomb sfx] That's incredible. Man, no, absolutely it works. Thank you so much, Ruchika. Now, look, you were talking about the importance of pronouncing someone's name, and let me just say as an example, it is very important, y'all, and my country self--and I know some of y'all may think I come from Connecticut, but no, I'm actually from Georgia. Like, I'm very country, and--Ruchika: I love Georgia. I lived there for a while.Zach: I appreciate that, and yes, Georgia is a dope place. I'm from Rome, Georgia. Shout-out Rome, Georgia, and then shout-out to Mississippi 'cause that's where I'm from by way of 'cause that's where all my people are from. But look, you want to take the time, y'all, and really slow down and make sure you can--and ask. Like, people will always respect and appreciate you trying to ask and seek as opposed to being like, "What's your name? I'ma just call you Bob." Like, "No, don't call me Bob. That's not my name," right? Like, "My parents gave me this name. This name carries weight and meaning and history and culture, and it's part of who I am as a human being that exists on this plane of existence with you, so please take the time to understand how to pronounce my name." So with that said, Ruchika Tulshyan...Ruchika: Thank you very much.Zach: Thank you very much. No, you were a beast. This has been great. Very thankful to have you on the Living Corporate podcast. That does it for us, y'all. You know where to check us out. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. We're on all the different DSPs, so we got Spotify, Apple... I don't think we're on TIDAL. Maybe. I don't know. Holla at me, Hov. "It's ya boy!" I don't know. But we're on all the other DSPs, okay? So if you Google Living Corporate we will pop up, okay? You know, if you want to make sure--if you're a browser person, you're not really trying to take any risks, you know, type in www.livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.us, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, but we don't have livingcorporate.com, okay? Australia has livingcorporate.com. The day that we're able to wrest livingcorporate.com from Australia is the day that we have arrived, okay? Ruchika: Wow. So you went out there and you got all of those domains?Zach: We've got all the domains.Ruchika: Wow. That is really--look, that takes a lot of work. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm, like, totally in awe, but this is, like, double the awe. That means you're really serious about this.Zach: Oh, we're not playing. So if you type in Living Corporate dot anything else we will come up, it's just that livingcorporate.com--so Australia, it's, like, this corporate housing website thing. It's really strange. And I've been, like, doing my work. I've been doing my Googles, my research, trying to figure out "How can I get this domain?" But you know, Australia's a big place. Living Corporate, we're only--you know, we're just one little company, but we're gonna get it though one day. Anyway, the point is we're all over. If you want to send us a listener letter, look, DMs are wide open. We are not elitists. You don't have to follow us, and we don't have to follow you, for you to DM us. Just hit us up, baby. We'll respond. Ruchika: But you should follow Living Corporate because their podcasts are so incredible, and really, if you care about, you know, making real change and you want to hear from people who are out there who are really making change, between all of you and your guests, I mean, I learn something every single episode.Zach: [straight up sfx] You hear that? Did you hear what Ruchika Tulshyan said? Come on, now. Goodness, gracious, the love is real. All right, y'all. Ruchika: I mean it.Zach: And I feel it, so thank you. Y'all, this has been Zach. You've been talking to Ruchika Tulshyan, speaker, innovator, educator...Ruchika: All the things. [laughs]Zach: All the things, you know what I'm saying? Give her all the things. Don't play, okay? And make sure, Harvard Business Review, if y'all listen to this, you know... don't play. She's dropping that heat.Ruchika: Hey, this is a very important part of this whole thing, okay? It's really important to spread the love and to, what I say, you know--you know, this is not a case of, like, sending the elevator back down, which is super important, especially, like--I say this a lot when I talk to a room full of women, but it's really important to be able to share the love and, like, be real, and be real in the sense like, "I need this. Can you help me get there?" And I think that's one thing that, if you've been underestimated at work, you've been told for so long that, you know, you don't matter or what you're doing isn't important enough, then it becomes hard to ask for help, right? I mean, all of the lean in narrative is about "Oh, you need to ask," but you have always been shot down or you have been shot down 9 out of 10 times, then of course you're gonna have bloody imposter syndrome, you know? Zach: Oh, my gosh. Yo, we gotta--okay, so do we need to have you back, like, for a variety of reasons, but certainly to talk about, like, how to ask for help and just, like, managing the emotional labor of asking for help over and over and over again, 'cause you're absolutely right. I mean, now, look, my dad, he's a salesman. Like, that's really who he is, and so I get it from him. Like, I'll shoot. Like, I'll shoot over and over and over again, but it doesn't change the fact that at the end I'm exhausted, and it's defeating to hear "no" all the time or to be undermined or for you to be told no, and then someone else comes along and asks for help and basically they end up doing a watered-down version of what you wanted help to do, you know what I mean? Like, that is... ugh, anyway. Goodness, y'all. Look, Ruchika got us over here about to have a whole new podcast in the wrap-up section of the show, but that's okay, y'all. Look, you've been listening to Living Corporate. Make sure you check us out. Check out the show notes. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.Ruchika: And I'll be back. [laughs]Zach: And she'll be back. [laughs]

Zach welcomes Dr. Oni Blackstock, the assistant commissioner for the Bureau of HIV/AIDS Prevention and Control for the NYC Health Department, to the podcast to discuss a wide variety of topics, ranging from her unique career journey to dismantling white supremacist constructs, and she graciously offers a couple points of recommendation regarding how to get started when it comes to advocating for yourself to get the health-related help that you may need at work.Connect with Dr. Blackstock on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram!Visit Living-Corporate.com.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, man, you know what we do. It's 2020. You know, fresh vision. You know, we're out here making moves, having conversations with movers and shakers, influencers, educators, public servants... what else? Who else? Executives, recruiters, entertainers. You know what I'm saying? Anybody who's willing to have an authentic conversation centering and amplifying underrepresented voices at work, and today, you know, I'm really excited about this particular interview. And I say that every time, but, like, I mean it every single time, even though I say it, like, over and over, but I really do mean it. And so I'm really excited. This particular episode we have Dr. Oni Blackstock. Dr. Blackstock, how are you doing? What's going on? Oni: I'm good. Thanks so much for having me.Zach: Thank you so much for joining us. Now, look, what I would like to do--'cause see, what I sometimes do, in the past I would give this, like, kind of, like, generic--I don't want to say generic, but I would, like, read off an intro, almost like a late-night show, and then I'd go in and I'd ask people to introduce themselves again. It seems kind of redundant, so what I want to do this time is just give you space and, for those of us who don't know you, just give you some space to talk a little bit about yourself.Oni: Okay, great. So again, I'm Oni Blackstock. I'm a primary care physician and HIV specialist. I also spent about the past 10 years conducting HIV research, but I now lead the Bureau of HIV at the New York City Health Department, meaning I oversee our city's response to ending the HIV epidemic. I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York. Parents, my dad is an immigrant from Jamaica, and my mom is Brooklyn-born and bred. And I have a twin sister, Dr. Uche Blackstock, and, you know, we're very much inspired by our parents to really meld medicine and public health with activism and advocacy, and so I get to do that in my current role leading the Bureau of HIV here in New York City.Zach: Okay. So first of all, incredible background, incredible legacy, and shout-out to the Blackstocks, the family, and shout-out to your sister of course as well. So I know, you know, the background being Jamaican--now, you know we do air horns. Now, let me ask you this. I've asked past Jamaican guests, but it is offensive or culturally appropriative that we also use air horns on our podcast?Oni: No, not at all. It's great. It's about the diaspora. Zach: Okay, cool, 'cause I gotta let 'em fly for you. Let me just drop 'em right here. [air horns sfx] Okay, 'cause I'm just very excited and thankful that you're here. Now, let's talk a little bit more about your background, right? So you talk about your focus being HIV and that particular illness. What was it about that work that drew you in particularly?Oni: Yeah. So I was in medical school when I feel like I quote-unquote first discovered HIV, and that was actually when I was doing global health work. So I had traveled to Ghana and West Africa, as well as South Africa, to do HIV-related research, and when I came back I did a rotation as a medical student back in New York City and saw that we had black people, Latino people, dealing with many of the same sort of medical-related issues, and even just sort of socio-structural issues, as I did when I was in Ghana and South Africa, and became very interested in our domestic HIV epidemic, and so I ended up doing my residency, which is the training that you do after medical school, in the Bronx at Montefiore Medical Center, where again I was seeing young black and brown people dying of, like, advanced AIDS, which was something I was really surprised and I think maybe people didn't realize was stlil happening in New York City. And I think what I in particular--what draws me to HIV is that it's really--it's not just an interesting bio-medical condition, but it's also, like, a social condition, and it's really an epidemic of not behavior, but an epidemic of inequality. So it's a confluence of lots of isms and lots of phobias, and you put all of those together and you sort of get HIV and you see the communities that are most impacted.Zach: And, you know, it's really interesting, this conversation particularly, because you're in a position where you're providing awareness and research and thought leadership and care for underrepresented, underserved populations--and often times stigmatized and just oppressed populations--while also being an intersectional member of a variety of underrepresented and oppressed populations and identity groups. Can you talk about, like, what that experience, that compounded experience, is like for you? Like, being in this space, being who you are?Oni: Right. Yeah, so I think what has driven me to do this work is because I'm from many of the different communities that are impacted by HIV. So I think sometimes for people who do this work it's maybe about careerism or they find it intellectually interesting, but for me it's really about helping my people and my community. So yeah, I mean, I think having the different identities, being a cisgender black woman, being someone who's queer and being at the intersection at these different marginalized identities gives me a different appreciation and understanding of what the factors are that folks are dealing with out in the community, and also the position. You know, even when we're designing, for instance, social marketing campaigns, like, I can say--you know, I'm able to give my input and--you know, we had a campaign, for instance, that was focused on pre-exposure prophylaxis, or PrEP. It's a once-a-day pill that people who are HIV-negative can take to stay HIV-negative. We did one for a focus on cisgender and transgender women, women of all different backgrounds, but what I did notice that I think most other people didn't notice is that all of the women were very, like, fem-presenting, and so, you know, I was like, "In the future when we do this work, we might want to have folks who may be non-conforming in their appearance." You know, just have different folks who may identify as women but have a different gender expression. And so I think, like, just sort of that awareness of understanding the different needs that may be out there of having these different perspectives is something that I think I can bring to this role and I think is, you know, really important, because the reality is that in many cities we don't have people who are leading this type of work who are reflective of the communities that are most impacted.Zach: You know, that's just a really good point. It's interesting because, you know, even as we talk about, like, representation and diversity in our marketing and, like, presentation, it's interesting how colorism and patriarchy still, like, sneak in to those spaces too, right? So, like, if you have--like, if you're presenting as a woman, often times it is going to be someone who is, like, traditionally fem or lighter-skinned or with hair that is a certain texture. Like, there's still, like, this template, right? That individuals are going to--that we either consciously or subconsciously seek to, like, place people in. Even when you see, like, people in positions of authority or any type of subject matter expertise in the space, you end up--I don't know. Again, they fit certain templates to me, and that leads me to another question though. Kind of starting at the top. So your lived experience brings a certain level of empathy along with your actual academic expertise. May I ask, are there ever moments or times where you believe that sometimes your lived experience or the passion that comes with that lived experience is almost counted against you because you lack a certain level of [laughs] intellectual objectivity that maybe white individuals or just folks who are not necessarily identifying these particular identity groups, that they can relate to?Oni: Well, I think--right, so that idea of, like, objectivity... I mean, it's, like, a construct. It's, like, a white supremacist construct, because we all come with our own perspectives and backgrounds. So it's sort of, like, a fallacy, I think, but yeah, I think that might happen. I think I am also fortunate, or maybe some might say unfortunate, but, you know, I did get my college degree at Harvard undergrad. I was a computer science major and I was pre-med. I went to Harvard Medical School. I got my Master's in Health Sciences from Yale's School of Medicine. So I have, like, sort of these bonafides that are sort of respected more by white culture, the dominant culture, which I feel like gives me quote-unquote credibility among some of these folks, if that makes any sense. So I feel like that somehow, like, helps to open doors in a different way, and then obviously having--you know, and sometimes just even having an MD, people make assumptions, and sometimes you can use those to your benefit, which is helpful. But, you know, at the same time, it does feel--it's kind of cringe-worthy and kind of not the best feeling to be benefitting from these same systems which also act to, like, oppress us as well, so... [?]Zach: Well, it's complex and nuanced. I'm just curious about that, because as I continue to get into just this work, any time you talk about, like, underserved folks or, like, doing work that seeks to push for equity in certain spaces, there seems to be, like, this underlying kind of attitude sometimes, so I was just curious about that. You know, you just spoke about--you used one of the buzzwords that triggers a lot of fragility in today's society, white supremacy. I'm curious, you know, on Living Corporate we've discussed the concept of decolonization, and one of the ways that we've seen colonization demonstrated is in language. Can we talk a little bit about medical terms that, intentionally or unintentionally, undermine the reality and complexity of systemic racism and other isms and various forms of oppression?Oni: Sure. Okay, so I think any term that, like, focuses the issue on the individual as opposed to, like, the structures and systems that drive risk and disease and poor health and poor well-being, so--I mean, for me, I mean, there's [?]--I actually tweeted about this recently. So, you know, terms like someone being a "medically-complex patient" or someone being high-risk or non-compliant really is about--you know, white supremacist culture puts the onus and responsibility on the individual and doesn't--you know, it ignores, like, completely, the context in which people are making decisions and choices. And so, you know, these are--you know, we're trying to, like, move away, at least at the Health Department, my bureau, from some of these terms, which are victim-blaming and lack recognition for these broader systems that increase risk for individuals.Zach: And I'm curious about that. Like, what does it look like to drive those conversations and to have folks say, like, "Stop. Let's take a step back and actually look at the systems that are impacting these individuals." Like, what does that look like? How do you broach those topics?Oni: Yeah. So I think one of the cool things here, at least the New York City Health Department, is the former health commissioner--her name is Dr. Mary Bassett. She's a black woman, and she started a whole initiative called Race to Justice, which was sort of an effort to understand and recognize the impact on racism on public health and health outcomes, and so by someone in her position sort of normalizing the conversations around racism really sort of opened the door for a lot of the work that I'm doing in my bureau with the staff here. So for instance, we received millions of dollars in funding from the federal government and from the city government that we then bid out in a competitive process to clinics and other community-based organizations to provide HIV prevention treatment services, and we were looking at this process and, you know, seeing that the same sort of large organizations that are typically not run by folks who look like the folks who are impacted tended to get a lot of the contracts. And so the great thing about being able to lead a bureau, lead an organization, is that we made sure that--we started looking at the process and figuring out "What are the ways that we could make this process more equitable?" But what we also did is in our request for a proposal we called out these different systems of oppression. You know, many times--before I came here, like, a lot of the requests for proposals would say things like "poverty" and "food insecurity," and it's like, "But what are the things that drive those things?" Right? Like, we need to call them out, and if we call them out, the organizations that we fund will know that these are issues that we are thinking about, and we're thinking explicitly about equity in this work, and so I made sure that in our request for a proposal that we use this language, that we don't just say people of color, that we say specifically the groups that are impacted. We say black and Latinx people. Like, you know, it's just calling it out and being really explicit and really putting it out there so that it becomes normalized and really part of the work that we do.Zach: And it's interesting, because I've noticed over the past--I would say since, I don't know, since... so over the past, like, decade or so. 'Cause I'm 30, so I've been working for about 9 or 10 years, right? So as I just kind of come into adulthood, just looking around, looking at the language that people use when it comes to just, like, systems of injustice or inequity, it's almost like they just--we use language that is... like things just happened. It's like we don't talk about how things are connected at all. I think I was reading some story about a young man who had a mistaken identity, and it said "A teen was hospitalized after being mis-identified by police." Well, no. He wasn't hospitalized because he was mis-identified by police. He was hospitalized because he was beaten by the police because he mis-identified him. It's almost like we take out the action or the accountability in the language and framing that we place. So let's do this. As you know, since the publication of Healthy People 2020, it's been confirmed that stress is one of the primary drivers of racial and socio-economic health disparities. Can we talk a little bit about the practical impacts of chronic stress for black and brown folks and how it shows up when it's under-treated? And then, you know, as you talk through a bit about what that looks like, I guess my Part B to that question is what are things that black and brown folks should be looking out for regarding their own stress and what ways can they advocate for themselves as patients?Oni: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so obviously these are, like, very weighty, big issues. You know, I think stress has, you know, wide-ranging impacts on our overall health and well-being. You know, when we are exposed to stress, or just the stress of being a black or brown person in this country--you know, I don't know if folks realize this, but it leads to, obviously, an elevation in [stress?] hormones like cortisol and nor-epinephrine and epinephrine, and those have, like, very harmful effects on the body. And so we can think about mental health, so, you know, depression and anxiety, and I have to--full disclosure, I myself am dealing with depression and anxiety, and I think a lot of it is attributed to really the chronic stress that we face, I think particularly in some of these professional work environments where we are held to very different standards than other people, and so having, you know, a support network and having a spiritual practice--which is something that I really want to develop more--are ways to really I think counteract these--you know, and the impact on the quality of sleep that we have, our metabolism, cardiovascular risk. You know, chronic stress predisposes us to a wide range of medical conditions, so yeah. So I think when we see--you know, a lot of the disparities or inequities that we see, you know, are driven by, you know, the impact of, you know, racism, and then it sometimes has direct, you know, effects on us, in terms of, like, the violence that, you know, is committed against us by police, but then also some of these indirect effects of dealing with chronic stress and the impact that it has on our bodies and minds.Zach: And I think--so I'll speak for myself in this example. I'm an example of this, right? Like, just kind of, like, moving and shaking in these spaces, finally taking a second to breathe and I'm looking back and I'm like, "Wait, I can't sleep. I'm having, like, auditory hallucinations. I'm, like, crying for no reason. Like, I feel sick." You know, there's all these different issues that have, like, you know, over time just been so untreated, and like, so, finally just now starting to get help for that. I'm curious though, what points of recommendation would you have for folks who are at the very beginning of this? Like, and how--what would you say to them who are just kind of looking to get started and kind of advocating for themselves to get the help that they need?Oni: Right. So I think, you know, obviously having a support network obviously is key, and so that people who are close to you, who you can speak to about, you know, the various stressors that you may have at work, in particular if you may be one of a few black people, or even if you aren't one of a few black or brown people. You know, our experiences in the workplace are very different from other people's. So definitely having a support network, and I think also not waiting for people to check in on you, but also to the extent that you can sharing with, like, your family and loved ones, particularly those who will be helpful, like, how you are feeling, 'cause I think sometimes, for many of us, we are very high-functioning, and so when you--you may be depressed, feeling depression and anxiety, but you are, like, highly productive. You're getting things done. You have a family. You have a great job. But, you know, you still need support, and it may not be, like, overtly obvious to your family. So I think, to the extent that we can, reaching out when we can. Obviously, you know, for instance, depression can sometimes impact people's ability to motivate and to be able to reach out to people, so obviously then we have to check on each other. I think also something that I have been increasingly learning is having some sort of, like, spiritual practice or some way of, like, grounding yourself, whether it's yoga or meditation or prayer. Whatever it is or whoever you pray to, having that be a regular part of your day and of your practice is I think incredibly important, because, like, you know, it's very hard to change these systems, and for the most part we have ourselves and we have our support networks. And so those are some of the recommendations that I would have. And I think also mentorship. If folks have mentors who, you know, have been in similar fields, or maybe even in a different field but can provide guidance and support, that makes a huge, huge difference. And also peer mentors as well, having folks who may be going through similar experiences as you where you can kind of commune and, like, come together and commiserate and also be helpful.Zach: You know, it's interesting. So you talked a little bit about your twin sister Dr. Uche Blackstock, and recently she published an article titled "Why Black Doctors Like Me Are Leaving Faculty Positions In Academic Medical Centers," and in the piece, towards the end of it, she says, "Academic medical centers must begin to recognize and rectify the historical and current impact of racism on the health care workforce. Their leaders should listen actively and respond accordingly to the concerns of black faculty members and students, adopt an anti-racist philosophy, and, through a lens of racial equity, intentionally commit the time, effort and resources required to dismantle the structural racism and white supremacy embedded in their current institutional cultures." Now, your work--again, we've been talking about it this entire conversation--is to combat the attitudes and white supremacist institutions that not only create but thrive off of inequity. I'm curious, in your mind, what incentives do these institutions have to actually make substantive, long-standing institutional changes?Oni: Yeah, that's a really tough question. You know, I think what we see motivates folks in society tends to be financial incentives, so I think if there is something in it, like, sort of profit-wise for these institutions, like, that can be helpful. I really don't know, because I think, you know, for many of these institutions--you know, I work at a government agency. The government has played a role for more than a century or two, probably several centuries, in perpetuating, you know, racist policies, and I think--you know, nowadays obviously we want to do the right thing and rectify things, but there's still--you know, the workplace here reflects what we see outside. Like, the public health department isn't immune from the inequities that we see outside, and I think that it requires really visionary leadership and commitment to change, but what it also requires is, like, white people to step to the side and there to be more leadership opportunities for black and brown people, and I think that's really a struggle. I think people support the idea of equity in theory, but then in practice it looks really different. I think, even just from conversations I had today with some of my staff, you know, in practice it can feel very uncomfortable. I think there's that saying, like, "When you're used to privilege, equity feels like oppression," or something like that. Yeah, so it's like, you know, when the going gets rough and you're really wanting to institute these changes, I mean, there's gonna be--there's tremendous pushback and resistance, and they're the reason why things have stayed the way that they are. So I have to be honest, I don't have, like, an answer. I would be curious to know about institutions that have had transformations and have done this well. It's a process. I know here at the agency, at the health department in New York City, you know, since Dr. Bassett came in 2014, and then the initiative started I believe in 2015, you know, it's slow-going, because these are, like, processes and structures that have been in place for centuries that we're now trying to undo. So I think--there's this organization that we work with called Race Forward, and they talk about equity being both a process and an outcome, and so we try to emphasize the process part, because people often want to see, you know, concrete change, and where there's an opportunity to show concrete change we try to, but we realize that this work takes a long time.Zach: So, you know, out of respect to the time, you know, I haven't been putting a lot of sound effects in, but let me just tell you, you've been casually dropping crazy Flex bombs this entire interview. So I just want to react to that. [Flex bomb sfx] You was also lighting 'em up like [blatblatblat sfx], you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Oni: Wow, that's impressive.Zach: Thank you very much. I appreciate it. That was also Cardi B, ladies and gentlemen.Oni: Oh, I love her.Zach: [Cardi B "ow" sfx] All right, so let's do this. Before we let you go, we typically give folks space, shout-outs, parting words. What you got for us?Oni: Wow. Okay, so I would say that I'm sure many of your listeners or people who have been quite successful by this society's standards, and I think often, like, we use, you know, degrees and job titles and stuff to, you know, say how successful we've been, but what I realized, you know, with the different leadership opportunities I've had, the different degrees I've gotten, it's really about finding happiness. I know it sounds really hackneyed and trite, but really doing the internal work to be happy regardless of whether you have, like, these accolades or not, because, like, my leadership job here and my degrees aren't gonna keep me, like--you know, happy at night, you know? Like, it's really believing in myself and that, you know, regardless of whether I'm working in a clinic, whether I'm leading the Bureau of HIV in the health department, I still--you know, I am really the work of, like, all of my ancestors who came before me. I, like, represent everything that they have been through, so to then think about success in, like, this white supremacist framework would not be something that they would be happy about. So I just try to, like, think about, you know, the family members and [?] that got me here and really about my own self-worth and happiness and not to measure that by these different accolades and positions and degrees.Zach: Wow. You know what? Just shout-out to you. Like, this is incredible. You know, there are people--I will say this as we wrap up--you know, there are people that I--that Living Corporate and myself individually, but also, like, our team, will, like, look for to get on the platform, and we'll look at their social media and we'll be like, "Dang, they look like they're real spicy on social media," then they get on the podcast and they're not as spicy. It's kind of like, "Come on, what are you doing?" But, like, I feel like you have matched, if not exceeded, your spiciness. Like, if I was to rate it, like, it is higher. Like, three curry goats, like, [?]. Anyway, it's great. All right, now, look, y'all. This has been dope. Y'all know what we do. We're having these conversations every single week, coming to y'all with dope conversations. This has been Zach. You have been talking to Dr. Blackstock, okay? Dr. Blackstock is the assistant commissioner of the NYC Department of Health & Mental Hygiene, focusing on HIV prevention and research and study, doing all the amazing things up in New York. Let's see here. What else? You know, check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and check us out on our website www.living-corporate.com--please say the dash. We do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, .net. We have all of the livingcorporates. 'Cause, see, people hit me up, Dr. Blackstock, and they'll be like, "What's the website?" And I'm like, "Look, it's livingcorporate.co or living-corporate.com," but people go livingcorporate.com, and then it pops up some Australian website, and I'm like, "Look, we don't have that domain. We have all the other domains." So you gotta make sure--you know, you gotta keep with us. You know, don't slow down. Keep up. You might get left behind. So my biggest thing right now is I want y'all to make sure y'all check the show notes, y'all look at the research and the work that Dr. Blackstock is doing. Make sure that you educate for yourself, advocate for yourself, shoot, and stay courageous out here. Did y'all hear all the stuff she was saying? Casually. She works for the government and she's talking about white supremacy. What you talking about? She's not scared, you know what I mean? Ain't nobody coming up here talking about [Law and Order sfx], you know? She's not afraid, okay? She's ready.Oni: And Zach, can I just say really quickly just as--I don't know if I'm an OG now 'cause I'm over 40, but I just want to say that I'm incredibly proud of you and this effort that you have and your Living Corporate podcast. It's really wonderful to see young people just thriving, so congratulations.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, look, we're both thriving, and I'm just over here like [look at us sfx]. You know? That's a Paul Rudd reference, everybody. Okay. All right, y'all. 'Til next time. This has been Zach. Again, you've been listening to me chop it up with Dr. Blackstock. 'Til next time. Peace.

Ade and Zach sit down and have an entertaining discussion geared around Black History Month, and they both share their experiences in being frustrated by an employer's mismanagement of the celebration. Ade also talks a little bit about the body butter company she started, and she and Zach spend some time reflecting on how far Living Corporate has come since its launch in early 2018. Thank you all so much for your support! We owe it to you.Ade's body butter company soft-launches soon, so make sure to follow them on Twitter and Instagram. Congratulations, Ade!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. And it's not just Zach. Ade: Ayyyye. It's Ade.Zach: It's Ade alsooo, yo, and we here, man. Look, it's Black History Month. It's 2020. You know, January was big trash, so we're just gonna start over. We're gonna count February as January--nah, just... 2020 is gonna have 11 months, that's all.Ade: Yeah, let's do that. I like that idea.Zach: Yeah, we're just gonna start over. So yeah, you know, it's Black History Month. Whole fresh new decade, and, you know, a few episodes have dropped. Downloads are popping, by the way. Like, they're really good, Ade. The numbers look good.Ade: Yay, that's awesome.Zach: Yeah, pretty good. So we both have a lot of stuff going on. What's up in your world?Ade: God, what isn't up? No, [laughs] I'm just really enjoying the ride. I got--you know, my first bit of code at my job was deployed successfully, went really well. I panicked a little bit near the end of the sprint there, but I got it all the way through, so I'm excited about that. I started my butter company, and my soft launch is February 10th, so I'm also really excited about that, just getting the opportunity--Zach: Hold on. Butter company? Like, what's up? Like, you making animal butter? Or, like, cooking butter? Or--Ade: [laughs] No, although somebody gave me the idea to do that. You know I love cooking and I love experimenting in the kitchen, so that was an idea that hadn't occurred to me. But this is the year of action, so I took action. [laughs] So now I have a company--obviously besides, like, this one--but I'm really excited. I've been connected with a bunch of really great folks within the, like, creative community, and I'm excited to see where this goes. What about you, Zach?Zach: Well, first of all, hold on. We don't have to rush over to my stuff. Excited for you, congratulations on moving in action, moving in intentionality, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] That's great, you know? But anyway, you asked me about myself. Yeah, so look, things are going great. Really focused on getting ready for my wife and I's first child coming in, like... I mean, if she doesn't come early--if she doesn't come early it will be in, like, 6 weeks.Ade: Whoo!Zach: Right?Ade: Oh, my gosh. You're so close to the finish line. And I would like to reiterate here that Ade makes a fantastic first time. I'm just saying.Zach: It's great. I love that, 'cause I'd like to reiterate... [haha sfx] You know? [both laughing] Ade: You are so wildly disrespectful.Zach: Not at all, not at all. I just stay ready, you know? I just stay ready. I think for me it's, like, focusing on, like, the radical change that's about to happen in our family, in our lives, then, like, just doing, like, a reassessment of just everything else around me, right? Because, like, I think initially--and I'm sure most people who are preparing for children, they go through this too--you're kind of like, "Oh," you know, they'll just kind of fit into your plans, and I'm like--as I, like, kind of pause and think about all of the things I have going on, I'm like, "Dang, wait. Certain things are gonna have to shift and change." Like, it's not gonna just be like, "Oh, I'm picking up a new hobby," or starting a new podcast, like, this is a whole new person, a whole person that's about to be, like, active, actively involved and will have active present needs from myself and my partner for at least the next 18 years, right? If not the rest of their lives. So it's like, what does it look like? So y'all, this is not me alluding to the fact that the podcast is about to stop or anything like that, it's just more about life. Like, you know, talking to other fathers who had to make career decisions and think about, like, what did it look like for them to make adjustments, how do you communicate with your teams about being a dad and, like, the new responsibilities as a parent? Those are things I'm really excited to, like, explore and, like, really discover over the next few--you know, over the next months and stuff like that as I get ready for paternity leave and all that kind of stuff. Like, really just, like, being really clear with, like, what does it look like to, like, live in this new world? 'Cause, like, I don't know. Like, I'm 30 years old, so it's not like I'm--I'm not old, so I still have things--Ade: [whispering] Yes, you are.Zach: That's jacked up.Ade: [laughs] I too got shots in my pocket.Zach: That's crazy. I see you. But the thing about it is, like, I still have a few decades more of career to have, and so it's like I don't want to just, like, kind of sit on my laurels because I have kids. Like, what does it look like to still progress and have a career and, like, develop and do all these things while at the same time being a very present and attentive and engaged father? So normal stuff. Like, I think it's a challenge. It's a good problem to have. It's something that is--it's a problem created by growth, so to me that's a--I count that as a good problem. So that's, like, the main--the big, big thing, then the second thing is just, like, continuing to slow down and focus on, like, mental health. Like, my own personal mental health and, like, my mental wellness, right? I think the more and more people I--especially black men--that I talk to who are transitioning out of their twenties, you know, it's like--I've talked to more and more folks who are, black men, who, like, this is the time when they go to counseling, right? Like, if you haven't gone already. And I've gone at certain points in time. We did pre-martial counseling. I've done, like, personal counseling as I got ready to get married, but I haven't really ever gone to, like, see someone, like, a true therapist, right? Like, a true, like, psychiatrist. I think that there's a certain stigma around mental health, right, for black people, and I would say particularly for black men, and so it's, like, getting comfortable with talking to people and, like, really getting help and just talking through things. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, like, the road of life has all of these different bumps and potholes. You're gonna have mileage and just damage and disalignment that you just need help with just because of the reality of life and the trauma that life brings, especially in the context of white supremacy and patriarchy. So shoot... and then the last thing, y'all, I think I'm just really excited about, again, like, Living Corporate. Like, yo, we got featured on Forbes, man.Ade: Oh, my God. I just--Zach: What is it? So be honest. When you saw it, what did you--Ade: Okay, I just want to put some context. I am not--I don't scream very often.Zach: Did you scream for real?Ade: At the top of my lungs.Zach: Did you really?Ade: I really did. [Zach laughs] And here's why. Like, it genuinely is a life goal for me to make it on Forbes' 30 Under 30, so when you sent that link to me, I was like, "Surely he is just sharing a link of podcasts that we should emulate or, you know, link up with these people and get a sense of what they do, how they do it, how well they're do--" Nope, there's our name. I was like, "Holy--" I was on top of the Moon. It was a moment for me, okay, personally.Zach: I was curious. Well, 'cause I texted you and we didn't, like--'cause we didn't, like, really react in the moment. Like, I reacted. I texted you. I was happy. But you were in the middle of your work day and, like, I had some time in my day, so I was able to step away and, like, actually hit you, right? And so when you--[laughs] But you didn't, like, react, so I was like, "I wonder if she really cared about that." Like, not that you didn't care, but did it do anything for you. But for me I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, I was shocked. Ade: Absolutely. No, I need you to--I just want to, again, reiterate the fact that I don't scream on a regular basis. It's not my personality type to just be out here in these streets wildin'--at least in that way, 'cause I do be wildin'. I'ma just be honest.Zach: Right, you do. That's true.Ade: [laughs] You didn't need to agree with me. I was just--Zach: You know, you put it out there. It's on Twitter.Ade: Okay. All right, this is fine. But really, it was such an honor, and it was something that I would not in the--I mean, if we, like, rewind a year and a half or whatever--it was actually about this time two years ago. Are we two years [?]? Wait a minute.Zach: Yeah, it's been, like, two years.Ade: Holy [bleep?]Zach: Right? It's been nuts.Ade: [laughs] I really need you to understand that I'm literally just coming to the realization that Living Corporate is almost two years old. That's wild. That's so wild to me. We need sweatshirts and hoodies.Zach: We need merch, man. We need merch. We should really drop, like, little collections. Like Popeye's.Ade: We should. We should, like, go through and figure out what our favorites from our guests and from our hosts are and then, like, make some sweatshirts, 'cause I would wear my sayings. That's all I'm saying.Zach: You would wear your own sayings?Ade: Absolutely. What? Absolutely.Zach: Nah, that's the definition of a narcissist. You'd put your own quotes on clothing and walk around in them?Ade: Uh-huh, I would.Zach: Wow.Ade: I would. You know why? Because I have some fire, fire sayings. Zach: [laughs] That's crazy. You do, but it's like... you can't say that though. Like, that's crazy.Ade: What? No. 2020 is the year of big upping yourself.Zach: Wow. You know what though? I respect it, 'cause, you know what I'm saying, if no one else is gonna wear your sayings, you may as well.Ade: Exactly. Precisely. Kobe was a fan of big upping myself, and so am I.Zach: He was. That's true though. You know what? That's a good point.Ade: And the way that I do see it is, like--being a little bit more serious about the subject, 'cause I was kind of making fun of the entire concept, but sincerely, like, we preach that you have to be your own best advocate, right? And we preach that you have to kind of take stock and make sure that you are keeping records of your good deeds when you do them so that you can be able to speak to your managers, your peers and your supervisors, all of these things, but when you are an entrepreneur or you are an individual contributor or anything of the sort, you have to do the same, right? Like, you have to be too, and this was something that I had to get comfortable with. And I'm still not comfortable with it, to be frank. Like, I handed people an 8-ounce jar of my product, and they were like, "Well, how much is this?" And I'm, like, waffling around, like, "I kind of don't want to ask anybody for money for this," but it's a product, right? But being able to, like, stand on your two feet and be like, "No, this is a thing that I've done, and I'm worth the time and the investment that you're going to make in my product or in me as a person." It's all a part of being confident in all of the work that you've done. You're not asking people to buy into a single thing. You're asking them to buy into you as an idea, and if you're not willing to, you know, kind of say it with your chest, as Africans will say. [laughs] If you're not willing to say it with your chest, then who's supposed to be willing to stand behind you and say it with their chest? You see what I'm saying?Zach: Yeah, straight up. Like, you have to be willing to advocate for yourself and, like, promote yourself, because--I mean, the Internet is such a big and busy place and, like, the world is so big and busy that, like, yeah, there--and I was just having a conversation with a guest that I will not reveal yet because I like guests being a surprise week-to-week, but a guest I was having a conversation with, we were talking about networking and how, like, the world is connected, but it's connected via a series of, like, closed loops. So it's not like you can just, like--the world is connected, but you still have to, like, be in certain circles for things to even get started, right? And so, like, the idea of like, "Oh, I'ma just do this thing over here in this corner, and then if it's good it will eventually get seen." It's like that's not really true. Like, you have to really actively promote whatever it is that you got going on. Like, period. That's just the way it is. But yeah, to your earlier point about, you know, it being two years and Living Corporate being around almost two years, right? So, like, April will make two years--or is it June? Golly, I can't remember. Anyway, some time--Ade: I think it was April, but we definitely had, like, our inaugural Skype or, what was it, Google chat in February.Zach: There it is. You're right, we did. We did have our inaugural Google chat in February just to talk about things, and then, you know, we kicked everything off a couple months later, but it's crazy 'cause, like--and shout-out to Dr. Gassam, who wrote the piece for us, the article for us, and shouted us out and, like, you know, put us up as #1. I don't know what those little numbers mean, you know what I'm saying? Like, 'cause I really--what I was really shocked about was everybody else on that list, everybody on that list are huge. Like, shout-out to Side Hustle Pro. Shout-out to Code Switch, dawg. Shout-out to Myleik. I was like, "Yo, we're up here with Code Switch? Myleik?"Ade: Code Switch.Zach: Code Switch! And yo, shout-out to NPR and Code Switch, because I remember when we first started thinking about, like, Living Corporate, like, as a podcast, we were like, "What are the ones that really inspire us?" And me and at least one other person was like, "Code Switch," 'cause, like, the format is so fire. Like, shout-out to y'all, man. So, like, even if anybody--for anybody to think about us in the same vein as them, like, I feel like that's a win on its own, 'cause that lets me know--that affirms me that, like, we're achieving [against?] the vision that we had initially set out, but it's crazy 'cause there's been, like, a lot of ups and downs and, like, a lot of stuff going on, but, you know, [Paul Rudd look at us sfx, Ade laughs].Ade: I'm just over here, like, giddy and over the Moon. Yeah, no, and it's funny because you're not the only person who sent me that link, and that's, like, the other thing that [?].Zach: Oh, you didn't tell me that.Ade: No, like, sincerely, you weren't the only one that sent me that link. My friend sent me that link, and I actually encountered someone--shout-out to you, you know who you are--who I literally had just, like, been talking to him. He's transitioning into tech. I just, like, try to make sure I'm giving people advice and help and checking in with people that I know are making the same transition, and I reached out to him, and he was like, "Wait, are you Ade from Living Corporate?" Zach: What?Ade: 'Cause he literally met me from an entirely separate context. And so to be able to encounter someone who, you know, knows of us and knows me in my best light, not, you know--clears throat--anyway. Zach: Dawg, I'ma tell you something. One day--one day, y'all... hey, listen, y'all. Some of y'all are, like, listening to this with a confused face. Trust me, I'm confused too, but one day we're gonna come on this podcast and we're gonna have a real conversation about the crazy life that Ade lives, 'cause why would you come on here and say, "Yeah, this Forbes article, and someone who knew me, and not in my best--" And then this awkward pause. I hear you audibly gulp in the mic. Like, what? [laughs] Y'all, y'all understand the type of work--like, y'all understand the team I have, right? Like, that's crazy. Y'all, don't treat me like--yeah, now y'all know what I'm doing with. What kind of weirdness is that? Go ahead. This person who hasn't seen you at your best and sent you the Forbes link. What?Ade: [sighs] I'ma just move forward. [Zach laughs] No, no, no.Zach: I wonder, is Ade the Mal of this podcast? 'Cause I'm certainly Joe Budden. I realize that. But Ade might--Ade might be the Mal. She might be the Mal of this podcast. She's, like, a little too cool to pod, but then she'll say [?] things.Ade: I demand we move forward. [both laugh]Zach: Goodness, gracious. Go ahead. Keep going.Ade: Anyway, so I'm just really grateful for, you know, where we are, and--first of all I want to give Zach and our writing team and our production team and our social team all the props, like, every single prop that exists, because you have been put in blood, sweat, tears, money, effort, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum into this, and it shows in the quality of our partners, our work, our podcast, our newsletters. Like, everything. Like, you've been really intentional about the direction that Living Corporate would take, and I really respect that, and you are by far one of the most aggressive--but you're not gonna beat me up though--type energies [?].Zach: [laughs] It's true though. It's true. [both laughing]Ade: And Living Corporate has enjoyed that energy, enjoyed the fruits of that energy.Zach: I do have "but you're not gonna beat me up though" type energy, and I've come to peace with that. It's true.Ade: It's my favorite thing about you, and also, like, simultaneously your worst quality when you turn it on me, [both laugh] but--[to this day sfx]Zach: [laughing] Oh, my gosh. It's true. But this is the thing, you gotta have "you ain't gonna beat me up though" energy, because boy, the world will beat you up, boy. The world out here tryna come--it coming for your neck, dude. I mean, every day I'm over here like [Cardi B blatblat sfx] with these haters, man. I'm trying to, like, stay alive out here. I gotta fight every day. Every day. All my life, literally trying to fight and then at the same time avoid--[Law and Order sfx]--like, at the same time. [both laugh] I be so aggravated, man. Do you know the fine line you have to walk as a black man? Man, I'm telling you, being black is so exhausting. Being black and conscious, like--James Baldwin, man. He was not lying, dawg. Not lying at all, because you are in a rage all of the time, and you're over here trying to, like, stand up and just speak to the fact that you're worth something. Listen... eugh. You're over here trying to literally raise your voice loud enough to be heard and respected, but not too loud, right?Ade: 'Cause [?], and here y'all come.Zach: Here y'all come, without at the same time going to jail. So it's, like, this fine line that you have to walk. It's just nuts. Anyway, nah, I appreciate that, Ade. And, you know, I appreciate you as well. You know, you're here. The biggest--Ade: Finally.Zach: Finally, that's true. But look, you was gone for a little minute, but you back in town. You know? It's okay. I think the biggest thing--what do they say, "the biggest ability is availability?" It's corny. It's kind of a coach's--coaches say that, but it's a true statement. Like, just be present, you know? I know one thing, and shout-out to Rod from The Black Guy Who Tips and Karen, his lovely co-host and partner, but one of the things he said, like, from the jump--like, he jumped on our podcast early. He was like, "Yo, being consistent--" He's like, "'Cause people come and leave, like, jump on these podcasts and leave all of the time." He's like, "So having some longevity is hard over time," and if it wasn't for our team - Aaron, Sheneisha, Amy, Latesha, Tristan... like, we have a great, great team, and we put out a lot of content. Like, we're posting three episodes a week every single week, and, like, that doesn't happen without a huge team--or, I'm sorry, relatively huge and a consistently dedicated team. So, like, really proud of them, really proud of, like, just what we've been able to do, and just, like, really thankful for Dr. Gassam, 'cause, like, there's plenty of other platforms that are trying to make content. I really still stay that, like, it's us, Trill MBA and, like... that's kind of it right now that's out here really talking about other in majority-white spaces. Anyway, so look, it's Black History Month. Have you seen any--I'm just gonna ask the question. I don't know why I'm trying to, like, play it safe. Have you been on a job where your employer has annoyed you by how they've handled Black History Month?Ade: Let me count the ways. I--[laughs] Whoo, let me take a breath. All right. I have been aggravated by several firms, actually, simply because--Zach: [laughs] Yes, shout-out "firms." Consulting, we're talking about y'all. [laughs]Ade: Looking right at you, friends. Zach: Looking right at y'all, professional services. Yes. [laughing]Ade: No, I just--there's nothing I hate more than double-talk, and by that I mean firms, corporations, whatever it is that y'all would like to call yourselves--active participants in capitalism--who pay lip service, either through, like, their mission statements, their values, their creed, or even their stated employee resource groups that they care about diversity and somehow consistently fail to make a statement or support or do anything of value, particularly during Black History Month. I noticed this during my employment at a firm I will not name in the past where, you know, July 4th came around, Veteran's Day came around. You know, all of those things were celebrated or commemorated by words from the leadership of the firm going out, but when Black History Month came and went there was nary a bleep, and it was so noticeable because, you know, the firm had something to say on MLK Day, but, you know, when ostensibly there would be time for--and to their credit, the employee resource group put on one... ONE program for the entire month of February. I understand that, you know, funding is a thing. It's difficult to organize sometimes around different people's schedules, but, you know, one event over the course of the entire Black History Month? I cannot tell you how deeply bothersome I found that, simply because you have a body of people who are, whether they consciously or not notice these things, are essentially being utilized as resources by this firm. I mean, you are essentially selling our time to all of these contracts, you're making millions off of us, and you can't take the time during Black History Month to care about Black History, but you can, on July 4th, take time to commemorate these things? Or you can during Veteran's Day or Memorial Day or Labor Day and all of these other things. So it feels like a very intentional slight, because, I mean, I know that your calendar functions the same way that my calendar does, and I know that your Google functions the same way that my Google functions, so it's not like you're missing out on the reminders that these things exist. So when there's an intentional exclusion, or what feels like an intentional exclusion, of black people from, you know, your commemorative messages, it's like, "Heard you. We see where your priorities are." And an even further extension of that logic is that when--you know, during these programming sessions there are no, like, leadership in the room to attend these programs or there's no support, you know? People have to come out of pocket for things, to pay for things. It just feels very ugly. I'ma use that word, ugly. Dusty. Musty.Zach: Raggly.Ade: Raggedy.Zach: And there's a difference now, and this is where--so, you know, you and I, I love the diversity just in our pairing, right? But, like, you know, you're an East Coast black and I'm a Southern black, right?Ade: Precisely.Zach: It's interesting, 'cause you said raggedy, and see, what I said was raggly.Ade: Raggley, mm-hmm.Zach: Raggly. Not raggley, raggly. Now, look, I want--'cause every now and then I teach--and if you're listening to this you know who you are, but for the white folks that I trust, the Buckys out there, the allies, or the aspirational allies, that I trust, every now and then I'll teach y'all a phrase called "fifty-'leven," right? You know who you are. If you're listening to this and you actually, you know, rock with me and you listen to this, I've taught you this. [both laughing] I've taught you all these phrases, and this is another one for y'all to take in. So look, it's not raggedy, nor is it raggley. It's raggly. It's two syllables, and that is often times a descriptor for how companies manage Black History Month.Ade: I will make an amendment to that statement, 'cause I don't necessarily agree. There are, uh, regional differences to dialects, you see. [Zach laughing] So while Zach is correct for his particular region of the Souf--notice I said Souf--Zach: That's true. Souf. That's true. That's fair, 'cause Southern is--'cause we live in America. Southern is a huge region. That's true. That's fair.Ade: Take his advice lightly, you know? Do with that what you will. Zach: [laughs] Be careful.Ade: And, uh, if you get run up on, please don't quote us.Zach: Don't quote me.Ade: 'Cause we will not be popping up [?].Zach: Uh-uh, uh-uh. Don't. And honestly, maybe don't say fifty-'leven around everybody. They'll be like, "Who taught you that?" And don't tell 'em it was me. [laughs] Nah, but no, I'm right there with you when it comes to, like--I've been in situations where, you know, either we don't celebrate Black History Month at all, we don't recognize it in any way, or employee resource groups will get, like, the black people to huddle together and they'll go do something, right? It's like, "Um..." Black history is American history. This should be something company-wide. And I'm not saying we gotta do something every single day, but can we do at least one thing? Can we recognize some of the black pioneers in our own firm, in our own companies? Like, we have our own historical marks that we've made, but I think--I don't know. It's tough, it's tough because--and honestly, like, even I say this, like, I get--like, I'm hearing... 'cause there's some executive leaders and folks who listen to Living Corporate, right? And they listen to it for different points of insight or whatever, and so there's a part of me who--and they're like, "Well, dang, I can't even win for losing," 'cause, like, the other part of me is gonna say, "And even if you are doing something for Black History Month, what are you doing for the rest of the year?" Right? 'Cause it can just be, like, an acknowledgement. Like, what are you doing? What are you doing to, like, actually advance having a more equitable and inclusive culture that drives belonging in your place of work? But I do think, like, at just the--I mean, I'm talking, like, floor level, if we could just start with some acknowledgement, you know? Like, you don't have to always quote Martin Luther King. You could actually, like, integrate and be intersectional with your Black History Month if you wanted. [Ade laughs] You can! Like, you can actually, like, quote trans rights, trans activists who happen to be black, and you can tie that in with, like, your LGBTQ ERGs. You could quote, like, Afro-Latinx civil rights activists and, like, historical people, and, like, integrate them. Like, there's all types of ways. You know there's ways that you can actually--you could use Black History Month to drive intersectional conversations and activities for your whole firm, 'cause black people are not just black. Black people are black and gay, black and Latinx. They're black and straight. They're black and female. They're black and disabled. Like, it could actually be something that could be--you know, you could use Black History Month similarly to how you use black and brown people anyway, which is really kind of like just the glue that holds everybody together. You could just use us if you want. You could use the month how you use black and brown people. Like, let me just be super cynical, right? You could actually--like, from a programming perspective, from, like, a networking and engagement perspective, from, like, even leveraging--like, getting more thought leadership, like, you could do all types of things with that month. You have a whole month, and this month you have a whole extra day. So it's like--Ade: No excuses.Zach: No excuses, right? Like, you could do something. And, like, if you need any help with ideas, then, I mean, you could talk to your own leadership. You could talk to--I don't know. There's just so much out there now. There's just so much--maybe we just need to drop an article on ideas for your Black History Month. Maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I don't--Ade: You know what? That's a good idea.Zach: I mean, maybe that's what we do, 'cause, like, I'm over here just thinking about it more and more. It's like, "I don't know if I've been a part of any company that I have walked away and felt like, "Wow, I really feel seen this Black History Month." I don't think that's ever happened to me. In fact, I remember last year I tried to quote a--like, I was on a project and there was a quote board, okay? So you put a little quote up there, and I was like, "Oh, it's Black History Month," and I tried to quote--I think I quoted, like, Oprah Winfrey or something like that, and, like, they literally erased it and put up some white man's quote and they were like, "This is more relevant." I said, "But I thought it was a quote board." Ade: Right?Zach: Like, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean it's more relev--okay... and again, that's where I had to make a choice between, like, okay, am I about to die on this hill? Am I gonna go to jail? Like, what am I gonna do? 'Cause, like, I just--I don't--nope. So I had to make a decision, but anyway. So okay, what else do we have going on? So what's the name of the company though? The body butter company. I'm jumping all around now. What's--'cause we didn't talk about that before.Ade: [laughs] Right. So my company is called Solari, S-O-L-A-R-I. It is a portmanteau of my name, or a part of my name, and my mom's name. And on Instagram and on Twitter I'm pretty sure our handle is @SolariBody, so it's S-O-L-A-R-I-B-O-D-Y. And yeah, I'm really excited. I'm kind of blushing right now. [laughs] I'm really excited about just getting started and just being able to expand my reach. So I've been doing a lot of kind of, like, self-care stuff for a very long time, like making my own body butters and making my own, like, lip balm, conditioner, and all these other things--and scrubs--and just the idea of being able to... and this is another thing that happened, but I'll finish my sentence. Just the idea of being able to utilize all of the things that I put into practice because I want to take care of myself and take better care of myself. So, for example, I would, like, make my own hair oils, but when I realized that other people wanted these things and don't necessarily want to go through the process of experimentation to figure out all of the ideal things--and I've already been doing these things for over a decade--I was just kind of like, "You know what? I'm gonna do this, and it's gonna be fun," and the reception has been fantastic.Zach: Well, I'm really proud of you. I'm happy for you, you know? I think--you talked about this a little bit on the last, when we did our season kickoff episode, but it's easy to, like, get in your own way and to like, you know what I'm saying, just let anxieties and different challenges, like, just hamper you or kind of put you in a stalemate, but it's really exciting, like to see you continue forward and build something. Ade: Thank you.Zach: You're absolutely welcome. Man, so, you know, my cadence as I was pausing there, it reminded me of my own Barack Obama impression that I do at the house for fun with Candis just to get on her nerves, 'cause I was almost like... [impersonating Barack] "Uh, Ade, it is, uh... impressive how you have taken the time," you know what I mean? I almost--and then I go into, [continuing] "Every day, there are Americans who get up, they have their challenges--" [Ade sighs, Zach laughs] "If there was any doubt, uh, that you could not do what it is that you're doing today, uh, you have nowhere else to look but in the mirror. Uh, you get up. You put that butter on your dry skin. Uh, you hydrate yourself, and you face a world that is not ready for someone like you."Ade: I'm about to hang up on you, sir. [both laugh] I am so done.Zach: [laughs] Goodness, gracious. So all right, y'all. Well, look, this was just a fun episode, you know, letting you know what we've got going on. Thank you so much. Shout-out to everyone who listens to this podcast. Shout-out to--shoot, I ain't gonna get into all the shout-outs, but just shout-out to y'all. Make sure that you share this with your people. Continue to share it. The numbers are showing that y'all are sharing it, and I look at our stats every single day 'cause that's just kind of the person I am, the obsessive person that I am, but [laughs] we're really appreciative. And then, shoot, I guess we'll see y'all next time. Make sure you follow--Ade: Wait, one last thing before we go. We kind of vaguely talked about it, but I do want to insert a moment of silence here for Kobe Bryant and his daughter and all of the passengers of the helicopter that went down. We actually weren't able to get on this podcast to discuss it because we were just so emotional. I tried, and it's about 7 minutes worth of just sobs and sniffles on that, but I think this is a pretty good time to do it. So if everyone listening could just join us in a moment of silence. [a moment of silence] Thank you. Zach: Nah, for sure. Yeah, we could talk about--we're gonna have to have an episode about trauma and, like, the ways that trauma impacts black and brown people at work every day, and how we're still expected to just, like, show up and perform two or three times better than our counterparts just so that we can keep our jobs. So... but yeah.Ade: And I just also actually--I think we should have a black heroes episode.Zach: I love that.Ade: I think that in an episode coming up soon we're gonna discuss, you know, some of our heroes, and Kobe's one of mine. People who have just shown you how to get through life with dignity and with grit, and that's a term that I didn't used to use so frequently and so intensely until now. But again, it's a topic that we'll be covering later, but suffice to say that was a shock to my system, and I didn't expect that it would be so shocking. I didn't expect just how strongly I would react, and I suspect that so many others found themselves reeling in the aftermath of that news. Our prayers and our thoughts of those affected. And another topic I think we should also explore is, you know, how to disconnect in times of trauma and to kind of reassess and to find your balance in those times as well. That's it for me.Zach: Nah, I love that, and I super agree. And y'all, on that super, you know, emotional, heavy note, we're gonna catch y'all next time, okay?Ade: For sure.Zach: Now, look, you make sure you check us out. We're @LivingCorporate on Instagram, @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. We have all the different domains. One day, man, we're gonna get that livingcorporate.com domain, man. Right now we have all the livingcorporate dot everything but com, and then we got living-corporate.com, but shoot, until next time. This has been Zach.Ade: This is Ade.Zach: Peace, y'all.Ade: Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of sitting down to chat with Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. in an episode themed around discussing emotional labor. She and Zach touch on the concept of self-care, and Dr. Gassam shares a few ways she believes that organizations, aspirational allies, and leaders can help ease the emotional labor lift for black and brown folks in majority-white spaces.Connect with Janice on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Check out her articles on Forbes!Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, we're here. We're back. We're having conversations, you know, that amplify the voices of black and brown people at work, and we do that through what? Now, I'm talking to y'all like this is a live podcast, but this is the part where you would say "by having authentic available transparent conversations with black and brown educators, executives, entrepreneurs, influencers, creatives, activists, and non-melanated or lower-melanted allies," right? People who are advocates of inclusive, diverse, and equitable spaces, and so we do that, right? Like, we have these conversations--honestly, I feel like every time we come on here we have a great guest, and today, today is no different. Today we have Dr. Janice Gassam. Now, listen, Dr. Gassam is a diversity and inclusion consultant and founder of BWG Business Solutions LLC, a company focused on creating strategies to foster an equitable workplace. Gassam is a professor at the Sacred Heart University, teaching courses in diversity and inclusion, performance management, data analytics, and employee engagement. Now, look, let me just go ahead and give y'all some stats, okay? Just real quick so y'all know, 'cause, you know, this is the thing. You know, we're gonna talk about this in the interviewer, but sometimes, you know, folks kind of look at these platforms--and Living Corporate is fairly unique, but they look at this stuff like, "Oh, this is just, you know, passionate stuff," quote-unquote, and it gets dismissed. No, no, no. Dr. Gassam has bonafides, okay? So she has a Ph.D. in organizational psychology, a TedX speaker, and she's authored over 100--listen, yo, 100. 100. Hold on, they're not hearing me. ONE HUNDRED articles. Now, you might say, "Articles on what? Articles on Lipstick Alley?" No. "Articles on Shade Room?" No. Articles on Forbes, what you talking about? [Flex bomb sfx] Okay? She's out here. She's making moves, okay? And listen, she has a competent communicator certificate from Toastmasters International. So not the local spot, okay? Catalyst certification in unconscious bias awareness, has spoken for Yale, H&M, and various other conferences and universities, and she's taught undergraduate and graduate courses in employee engagement, performance management, diversity and inclusion, amongst others. Dr. Gassam, how are you doing? Like, I just gotta--hold on, I gotta at least give you a cheer or something. [applause sfx]Janice: [laughs] Thank you so much, Zach. That was a really nice intro. You made me sound so important, but thank you so much for having me, and it's a pleasure to be here, and I'm really excited to get into this conversation. How are you today?Zach: You know what? I'm doing really, really well. I'm in New Orleans. My cousin-in-law is getting married.Janice: Congraulations. That's fun.Zach: Absolutely.Janice: Are you gonna go to Cafe Du Monde?Zach: Ooh, I might. I may.Janice: Yeah, you gotta have--you gotta. I think it's 24 hours, but the lines are usually pretty long. But if you have a chance, if you're there for a little bit of a time, that would be fun. Wow, that sounds really nice.Zach: It should be great, you know? And this is the challenge, right? So when you get older--so I'm just now hitting 30, right? So you get older and, you know, you can't just kind of eat and do some of the things that, you know... your body, your body sends you a memo later like, "Ayo, I know you tried to be cute earlier, but it ain't happening now. You've got an appointment now, so what's up? And now your knee hurting and you don't know why," right? But no, I'm doing great. How are you doing? What do you got going on these days?Janice: I'm doing good. I aim for seven hours of sleep, seven to eight hours, so I got my seven hours. Today I have to do--I'm writing some articles. I did some Forbes interviews, so I have to just transcribe them, and then I have grading of course. So that should be--should keep me pretty busy.Zach: Okay. Okay, all right. Now, look, it can't just slay by itself. You gotta put in the work, and you're doing it, so we appreciate you. So thank you.Janice: Thank you so much.Zach: No, no doubt. So look, let's get into it. You've established a deep brand in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Your profile--at what point in your life did you realize that this was the work that you wanted to do and why? Like, what led you to come to this point and create this brand for yourself?Janice: Well, I guess sometimes people ask me this question, and I think it's a combination of the fact that I come from a--my parents come from Cameroon, which is a West African country, so I--throughout growing up I kind of grappled with not being Cameroonian enough, you know? Because I don't speak the language, I don't cook Cameroonian food, and I didn't really know a lot about the culture growing up because I was born and raised here in America. So I think that that combination of the different culture, as well as, you know, growing up in predominantly white neighborhoods and going to predominantly white schools and also just recognizing my blackness, it's almost like--DuBois talked about, in "The Souls of Black Folks," a double consciousness that black people in America experience where it's kind of like they have to grapple with their own blackness as well as being a black person in a white America, and I think it was, like, a triple consciousness. So trying to figure out where--you know, where I fit in the black sort of scope as well as, you know, trying to assimilate to white America, and I did a lot of that in school, you know, so that I would be accepted and then also embracing my culture and being true to my culture and that aspect of my background. So I think that that combination always made me really interested in diversity and inclusion. In 2011 I started a YouTube channel where I talked primarily on race and quote-unquote black issues and things that I felt were relevant to the black community, and I've kind of scaled back, and I haven't made a video probably in six or seven months, but I still, you know, post videos on there here and there, and I was able to cultivate a pretty loyal and strong audience. I had about 20,000 subscribers on that channel, but-- [ow sfx] I actually moved my focus to corporate diversity and inclusion because I saw that there were holes in the system when I would work in different companies. I noticed certain things. So I guess my focus moved from sort of these issues that are relevant to black America to "How do I fix these issues in corporate America?" Zach: And it's just such critical work. First of all, let me take a step back. So I think it's interesting when you think about, like, just black identity, underrepresented identity, and just all of the nuance of that, just of your own identity period. Like, let's just--not talking about within the context of any other social framework, but you have yourself, your own lived experience, which is complex, and then you're placing that within a context of being, like, in a white majority, and then--I don't know. It's just a lot, and I wonder--and it kind of leads me to my next question. When you talk about, like--when we talk about this space in diversity and inclusion and we talk about really kind of taking these conversations that black America is having--and I'm not trying to exclude other non-white spaces, but I'ma speak to black America because that's the experience that I live in. So historically over the past, I don't know, what, 100 and something odd years, like, we've had thought leaders talk about and have these internal conversations or in-house conversations about what it means to be black, and then of course we've had--you know, we're knocking on the door today, but there have been people who knocked on the door before us having these conversations and bringing these discussions to light. I guess my question is, as I look at your profile, do you ever see or feel a sense of being in, like, two worlds at once? And these two worlds that I'm talking about is one I'm seeing, like, a bit of--I'm seeing, like, one camp when it comes to this corporate D&I space, this corporatized D&I space that is very heady. It's very academic, and it's largely white and institutionalized a bit. And then there's this other group that's continuing to grow and build that is more activist in its function and more driven and founded by themes of justice, and also driven by themes of lived experience. When I look at your profile, and even what you just shared about you being a first-generation American and you being a first-generation professional, like, a first-generation in a variety of ways, but also having this academic background, do you see yourself straddling both of these worlds? Do you see--I mean, I'm kind of making an assumption that you even agree with my analysis of, like, corporate D&I. I'm just curious about, like, how do you see yourself as you operate in this space?Janice: No, absolutely. I have a close friend who, you know, I've been doing these diversity dinner dialogues in New York City, which is just, like, a free workshop where anyone who has an interest in diversity and inclusion can come. You know, we talk about a specific topic. Papa John's sponsors it, and in doing that I actually got to know a girl who has become one of my close friends. Her name is Donna. She's getting her Ph.D. in psychology, but her dissertation focuses on corporate diversity training, and she's looking specifically at how receptive people are when the trainer is not a diverse person, so is a white person or seemingly a white person. And going back to your point, I do agree. I think that unfortunately, any time you're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, I think people are more receptive to the message when it comes from a white person. That's just unfortunately, you know, what it is. If I'm talking about, or you're talking about your lived experience, I think that people put more stock in when a white person says those things or finally realizes that there are inequities that are taking place. I do commend--not to take anything away from white people who are in this space who are using their privilege to amplify the voices of people of color, but I just think it's something that's important to note, that in this space I do think that there is sort of, like, a hierarchy, and I think that, you know, unfortunately black people are at the bottom of that hierarchy, and I think that when it comes to issues that are relevant, specifically to black people and people of color, those get prioritized last, and I think that that's unfortunate. People don't understand that you can be a marginalized group but still be racist. So I think that it's important to understand those sorts of things. I don't know, I guess, what the solution is, but it's just something that I've noticed.Zach: No, straight up. And it's interesting too. So your point around, like, hierarchy, 'cause even as I talk to other diversity, equity and inclusion professionals, right? Like, something that people will jump out [?] any time we have these conversations. It's almost like a point of pride or, like, particular insight when people say something like, you know, "Diversity and inclusion just isn't about ethnicity and race," and I'm like, "Well, wait... okay, it's not, you're right. Can we also acknowledge that ethnicity and race have played a critical part in, like, America's formation and policy structure and even today. I'm not saying that the other diversity [?] don't exist, but it's like people are so excited to, like, get away from that and then talk about "It's about diversity of education, and geography, and hair color," and--Janice: [laughing] "Diversity of thought."Zach: My gosh, diversity of thought. You know, I keep--you know, look, the government, they made--I'm serious, they made crack and diversity of thought in the same lab. They did. It's crazy. It's nuts.Janice: Right? That's a great way to put it, yeah. I think it's really easy to, like, divert the conversation, and that's why I think I like to do these diversity dinners and focus specifically on an issue, because I think when you're talking about, for example, allyship, allyship, that conversation--people think of allies more so as allies in that LGBTQIA+ community, but any marginalized group needs allies, and I think that when you don't focus specifically on race or ethnicity and you bring up the diversity conversation, I think people like to divert it and say, "Well, you know, you also have to be inclusive to this group and that group and that group," and I totally agree and I understand that, but I think that there are very unique challenges that people of color, and particularly black people, in this country face in that the main way that people are able to see that we are black is our skin color, you know? If you're part of a marginalized group where your identity is invisible, I do think that your experiences are vastly different from an individual like me or like you who our skin color is apparent to anyone that looks at us, and I don't think that it's--you know, I guess I'm not the type of person that likes to say who is struggling the most or likes to play the oppression politics, but I do think that that is an important point that needs to be acknowledged. Just because you're part of a marginalized group doesn't mean that our experiences are the same, you know? And I think that sometimes people like to say, "Well, look, I'm oppressed too. I have this particular invisible identity," and it's like--we might have similar experiences, but we also have vastly different experiences, and I think that sometimes that's overlooked. Even when I come in and do these corporate workshops related to diversity, I am always encouraged to not focus on race. And I recently had a consultation--so when people reach out to me to do a workshop, they'll schedule a call and then kind of figure out what I'm about, what topics I can speak to for their corporate audience, and I was specifically told recently to not victimize people in the workshop. So, you know, people don't want to be victimized. People don't want to feel like the finger is pointed at them. And sometimes people don't really want to directly address race, and I recognize and understand that. Before I was kind of, like--I didn't really quite understand that, but I know that, you know, when you come into a room and say to somebody, "Because you're part of this race, you have privilege, and your people have systematically and systemically oppressed," you know, based on the history. People shut down, and there's resistance, so it's almost like you kind of have to--I don't have any kids, but I know that sometimes when you have kids and you don't want to eat the food or take the medicine, you can kind of put sugar around it with the medicine and give that to them. So it's almost [?] diversity and inclusion. You have to give the sugar with the hard, I guess, lessons and the hard realities, because people get very defensive.Zach: And so then--so let's talk about that a little bit more. You shared the idea that folks will tell you, "Hey, just don't talk about it." Like, how do those requests come about? How do they frame it?Janice: Sometimes they're very great, [laughs] and other times it's more subtle, where I give them a list of topics--and of course, you know, I've been on YouTube since 2011 just talking in front of my camera about quote-unquote black issues and how--you know, racial dynamics, so it's a topic I feel very passionately about, but when I give them my list of topics that range from, you know, micro-aggressions to how to have conversations about race in the workplace to how to get the ROI of your diversity programs to emotional intelligence, what I've noticed is typically people like me to talk about emotional intelligence versus--and I think emotional intelligence is definitely an important topic, but it's not something that's difficult to digest, you know? It's not something that's gonna make people feel uncomfortable. So it's kind of like, "These are my lists of topics," and just in choosing the topics, you know, they'll reach out to me and say, "Could you do a talk on this?" or "Could you do a workshop on this?" And it's never been some of those more difficult-to-swallow concepts like race, because--and I understand, you know, you want your audience to be receptive to it, and unfortunately people really aren't receptive to conversations about race unless it's a white person giving it. A good example of that is--I showed my students the Chelsea Handler documentary that just came out on white privilege. I think that's what it's called, "Me and My White Privilege" or something like that. [Editor's note: it's "Hello Privilege. It's Me, Chelsea"] So I showed it to them. There was a particular clip where Chelsea interviewed some conservative women from Orange County, California, and they were saying people of color get privileges like school admissions, like jobs. They were referring to this myth that affirmative action is reverse racism. And so, you know, I showed them that clip, and then I spoke to how all of the things that were said in that clip were just factually incorrect, and affirmative action wasn't created to give unfair advantages to people of color and women who are not qualified, and also white women benefit the most from affirmative action. So I think that just watching that whole documentary, the reception has been interesting, because I think if someone like Kevin Hart or Dave Chappelle or, you know, any other comedian did a documentary on race, I don't think it would have gotten the same reception as Chelsea Handler's documentary, and I think that that's unfortunate.Zach: It's interesting too, because I was having a conversation with some majority folks, right? And they were talking about the documentary, and they said, "Well, you know, I don't know. Part of me is like, you know, 'Is this just another schtick?' Like, 'Is she even really being serious and authentic,' right? Like, how honest is this really?'" But then also there were people who watched it and really, you know, thought it was just groundbreaking and courageous and innovative and all of these other words. [laughing]Janice: It's interesting. I thought it was--it was just interesting. I think that when she was speaking with the women in that particular scene who were saying these things, she didn't really dispel what they were saying. They were like, "Well, you know, everyone has privilege, and it's not just white people," and Chelsea wasn't--I think she could have been more direct with dispelling their myths, and it's just incorrect to say that black people are getting--people of color are being treated, you know, better than white people in this country, 'cause that's just not true.Zach: That's just factually false.Janice: [?] You look at the rate of arrests. You look at who gets jailed, the amount of time that's given. If you just look at our criminal justice system, it's so apparent. You know, and what is her name? I'm forgetting the author's name, but she specifically talks about looking at the demographics of people who were pulled over and arrested driving on the New Jersey turnpike where they did this extensive study, and they found that, of course, the majority of those people were black and brown men. So just, like, it's obvious that those women are living in, like, their own delusion, and I think that maybe if I was sort of encapsulated in my own white America and I didn't interact--'cause obviously I don't interact really with anyone of color--I would probably have those same falsehoods as well, and one thing that I try to remind myself is that I can't really fault white people for not caring about certain issues because, in their minds, they think that it's not relevant to them. So we're--you know, humans are self-motivated, and we focus on things that we think will impact us. I think the fallacy is thinking that it doesn't affect them, because if Trump is spewing this rhetoric, or if our politicians are doing something that negatively impacts [one group?] people, ultimately that's gonna impact you in other ways. So I think that, like, there's this false idea that diversity and inclusion doesn't impact you or you're not--you don't have to be involved in the conversation, but I think that--you know, that famous quote that somebody said where it's like, "If one group is oppressed, we're all oppressed." You know, "If one group is not free, none of us are free." So I think that it's that. It's just that these women in that clip didn't understand how, like, we're all interconnected.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and there's multiple points of evidence that we can look at to talk about just, like, disparity and inequity and disparate treatment for black and brown people juxtaposed to white folks, right? So you have--of course you have prison, just the criminal justice system. You also have, like, health care and treatment. You have access to public transportation. You have just general public school education. You have access to food. So just, like, neighborhoods that are--you know, you have food deserts. Like, those are real things, and they're impacted by race. So 100%. So, Janice, diversity, equity and inclusion is broad, and you talked about earlier that you cover a variety of things. You speak on a variety of things. Can we zoom in on a topic really quick? Let's talk about the emotional labor of black and brown DEI professionals, particularly women, in this, like, diversity, equity, and inclusion space, right? Like, I'd really like to talk about that. Are you down?Janice: Yeah, sure.Zach: Cool. So in the history of the show, you know, I've brought up the concept of emotional labor, but I've just said it. Like, I'll be like, "You know, people don't really consider the emotional labor." And I've talked about it with colleagues at my job. I've talked about it with friends. But, like, can we--but I don't think I've ever taken the time to really explain what emotional labor is, like, as a concept. Would you mind talking a little bit about what you believe--like, what is your definition of emotional labor?Janice: Absolutely. So it's funny you ask this, because at the recent diversity dinner dialogue I had this week there was a diversity professional. He works at a large consulting firm, and he asked what we--he posed the question to everyone who was there, and he said "What do you do for self-care?" Because D&I work is very exhausting, so what do you do as self-care? And, you know, one thing that I realized is that I never really escape it, because I feel, like you said, it's our lived experience, so any time I--and I don't watch TV, but when I open my phone to go onto Instagram, you know, the people that I follow are a lot of these--like, Shaun King, and, like, a lot of these, the [?] show. So people who report on news that's related to black people. So sometimes I just find myself scrolling past stuff, because--especially Shaun King stuff--I don't always have the bandwidth for it, and if I've had a long day and I'm just not in the mood for my day to be ruined, I have to scroll past stuff. But also, like, for me, I think fellowship is a really important part of just dealing with the emotional labor of it. I think fellowship with my fellow black and brown people, it just helps me, 'cause it's almost like when you're around people--when you're around the majority, it's almost like--I saw a picture where someone had, like, a mask on--a black person, it's like when they go into corporate America you put your mask on, and then when you get home you take your mask off. So I feel like when you're around your friends you're free to take the mask off and just, you know, explain what you're going through at work, and my friends and I, we talk a lot about our work experiences, and I--you know, my experience is a little different since I'm not necessarily in corporate America. I'm in academia and then I do consulting. And academia has its same politics, but it's a little bit different, but listening to--you know, I have a close friend who works at Uber, and just listening to all of my different friends' experiences, I'm just like, "Wow. This is really, really interesting," and, I mean, in a weird way, the fellowship helps me to sort of cope with some of these--the work that I do. So that really helps me. And also--it sounds weird, but I'm really big with sleep. [laughs] I always try to get my 7-8 hours, 'cause I think that--and there's research that indicates that when we're under stress, when we're not getting enough rest, we're sick, we're more likely to--our thinking isn't as sharp and as crisp, and interestingly people are more likely to fall into discriminatory behaviors when they're sleep-deprived. So I always try to make sure that I'm in--or, you know, as much as I can that I'm getting enough sleep, I'm getting enough rest, I'm going to the gym, even when I don't feel like going, to make sure that I'm treating my body as well, because there is this idea that, you know, in our society, you're not productive unless you're busy, and I really try to emphasize the importance of sleep and rest, especially when you're doing something as taxing as diversity and inclusion work or just being a person of color in a workplace that--you know, even if your work doesn't relate to diversity and inclusion, that's exhausting in itself. So I think that those are really important for me, sometimes just scrolling past those pages and those things that will bring me more stress, getting rest, and then just the fellowship.Zach: And so then do you think--do you think that the concept of emotional labor is explored enough, like, within, like, diversity and inclusion, and then also, like, as a concept when we talk to companies and clients and other organizations?Janice: I don't. I don't think that it's--and it doesn't really happen as much to me. Sometimes when I'm on a plane and I'm reading a certain book, someone might see something and comment, but I've seen sometimes where D&I professionals are wearing a shirt that makes a really bold statement and someone makes a comment about the shirt, and it's like--it's exhausting because sometimes you're out and you don't want to have a conversation about diversity and inclusion, but somehow it gets to that conversation. So I think that people just assume that because this is something you do for a living or you enjoy doing that you want to talk about it 24/7, and that's not always the case. So I think that it's not something that's explored enough and in enough detail.Zach: And so then, like, you know, what does fatigue look like? Like, you've been in this space for a while. Like, at what points do you realize, like, "Hey, I really need to," you know, engage in what is restorative for you. So you taking a break, you getting off social media, you sleeping a little bit more. Like, what are the signs of fatigue for you personally?Janice: I think when I have an opportunity that's presented to me, and instead of being excited I just--I'm already anticipating how tired I will be after the opportunity, that's a good indication that maybe I need to sort of slow down. And yeah, I think that would be the main thing for me. Sometimes people will reach out and say, "Oh, can you do this?" And it's an amazing opportunity, but I'm just like, "Oh, I have so much on my plate," so I can't--in my mind I'm like, "I can [?] do it," you know? And it's just--for me it's just sometimes I need to learn, one thing I need to learn is--Shonda Rhimes has a book called The Year of Yes. I need a Year of No, and I need to just--sometimes it's really powerful to just say no to things that you know will leave you drained and overwhelmed, even if you feel like it's for a good cause or it's for the greater good or it will benefit the person or the group that is getting the service. I think sometimes just saying no or just saying "No, not right now," is really helpful for me. So that's an indicator to me of when I've kind of, like, reached my point of exhaustion.Zach: That's just a really good point. I think, especially when you talk about these types of spaces, right, you know, people will reach out to you for a variety of things, and 99.9% of them are gonna be good, but--and so because they're genuinely good things, it's hard to say no, but it's like, "Man, I'm only one person." Right? Like, I don't have an inexhaustible amount of energy. I have to create some space for myself. Let's talk about this, and I really want to get back to something that you said earlier in the conversation. So you said sometimes people reach out to you asking you to talk about specific things. Are there ever any moments where you consider your profile, right? When you consider, like, the work that you've done in academia as well as your personal life and your journey and your lived experience? Do you ever battle feelings or insecurities around being tokenized?Janice: I don't. It's interesting. That's not something I--I think that even if you're choosing me for this particular role or you're asking me to do this because you want to check some boxes, I'm still gonna achieve the ultimate goal. So I think that I don't really look at the vehicle. I just look at, you know, "Am I able to accomplish or achieve this goal?" I recognize and understand that there is a possibility that maybe the powers that be saw what I look like and said, "Okay, we need this person so we look like we're being diverse and inclusive," but ultimately getting the opportunity to sort of try to push the needle and move the needle forward when it comes to building a more inclusive culture is fine with me. So it doesn't matter to me if the goal was to check some boxes, because I'm still gonna go in there and do what I really need to do and what I want to do. So I try not to think about that, because I think for me, if I started thinking about that, it would be, like, a never-ending rabbit hole of, like, "Are they really choosing me for my credentials, or did they see that I'm a black female and they want to check some boxes?" So I try not to think like that, because ultimately I'm like, "I'm gonna come in here and do what I'm supposed to do," and I try to just come in and do an amazing job so that even if they were trying to--even if the purpose was just to check the boxes, they'll see, like, what a strong, you know, worker I am, or what a strong consultant I am, and they'll understand that they made the right decision.Zach: I hear that, and what I'm taking away from that also is just, like, you know, people can choose you for whatever motivations they have. It's about how you decide to show up in that moment, right? Janice: Exactly.Zach: Yeah. It's interesting, you know? Like, transparently, I have those--it's something I struggle with, right? I struggle with the idea of "Man, like, why would you choose me?" But then, to your point, I know for me, like, I have a fairly specific brand, so when I show up, like, there's a story that I'm gonna tell. There's a way that I'm going to move. There's a way that I'm going to work. And, you know, we'll see how comfortable you are with that, and if you're not comfortable with that and you decide you want something else then, you know, that's fine too, but I have to show up and deliver on who I am and then, you know, let the chips fall where they may after that. Okay, so we're talking about emotional labor. We're talking about self-care and kind of getting those energies back. I think something that's, like, really understated as well at work for diversity and inclusion professionals, and just black and brown people in general, right? So even if you're not explicitly in diversity and inclusion, like, a space, but just at work, is the emotional labor of just being other in majority-white spaces, right? So, like, I'm curious, what are ways that you believe that organizations and that aspirational allies as well as just leaders can help ease the emotional labor lift for black and brown folks in these spaces?Janice: I think it goes back to organizations really trying to make us feel included. In my university--and I teach in a business department [where] there's no other black females. There's other women of color, a few who are of Indian--one who's of Indian descent and one who is Chinese, but they're--we're, like, one of few, and then at the university, I don't know how many tenured black professors there are, but there are very, very few. So I think that one thing that organizations can do is just try to take additional steps to make people who are the only feel included. So I'll give you an example. I was working at a university in New York City that when I started they said that they needed more diversity and inclusion. They needed the faculty to look like the student body. And this is a public school in New York City. It's part of a large university system. So most of the students come from different backgrounds, you know? There's lots of black and brown students, and the professors just didn't reflect that. One student told me that I was the first--a black student told me that I was the first black professor he's ever had. So, you know, I got there and they said, "Oh, we really want diversity," and then they didn't do anything to make me feel included. It was like they [tired?] me and dropped me off. My office was in--and little micro-aggressive behaviors. I'm no longer there, but I was in the Psychology department at that university, but my office was in the English department. There was no name on my office. And even though I was visiting faculty--so it's kind of, like, not guaranteed that they'll renew your contract--I was teaching more than any other professor in that department. I was also teaching during the winter intersession. So normally you get, like, a month off. I was literally--like, I had a week and a half off, and then January 2nd or 3rd I had to--Zach: You were back at it. Wow.Janice: So, like, I think that the inclusion piece is so important, because companies just look at the diversity on the surface and say, "We don't need a diversity program. We have lots of black people. We have lots of people from Asia. We have lots of this and that," and it's like, "But do they feel included?" That's really the important part. So I think that where companies miss the mark is that inclusion piece. So the university that I'm at now, Sacred Heart University, I think that they've done an amazing job with making me feel included. Even though I'm one of the only, I'm frequently invited--you know, they always have, like, off-campus events for faculty members, and if someone's retiring they have these parties and all of that, and it's just like--the department chair will reach out and say, you know, "Janice, are you gonna come to this?" Or "Would you like to join this committee?" And I just feel like--last year was my first year working there full-time, and they were just so--all of the faculty members, on their own, would come by my office. I'm sure they're like, "Who is this?" I look younger than I am, so people think I'm in my 20s, and I'm 32. So people are like, "Who is this young black girl with these [fauxlocks?] sitting in the office? Like, what?" So they'll come up to me and just say, "Hey, how are you? What's your name?" They'll give me their card, they'll connect with me on LinkedIn, and that's not something that I experienced at this other university that I worked at. So I think that they really made me feel a sense of inclusion, even though I was the only. Literally it was, like, a line of professors [?] where my office used to be. I know I was the only black woman on that floor. I didn't see any other black women. So, you know, just making me feel--including me, inviting me to things, trying to just, you know, check on me. And just really quick, Ernst & Young did a study where they tried to measure belonging that people feel in the workplace. So they developed something called the Belonging Barometer, and what their research found--this was last year that it came out--so what their research found is that the #1 way to make employees feel a sense of belonging is frequent check-ups. So if you are a manager or you're another employee and you come to the office of someone and say, "Hey, how are you? How was your weekend?" And you do this frequently, that is the best way to make employees feel a sense of belonging. So I think that at my university, my colleagues do that a lot, and that's what really makes me feel like--even though I'm the only, they're really making me feel like I'm part of a family.Zach: So first of all, you know, thank you for sharing that. You know, I'm curious. When you were going through the experience at the previous institution, did any of it feel like you were being gaslit a little bit? Like, did you raise any of these concerns? Like, "Hey, you got me all the way over here in this other group," and "Hey, I don't have a name on my door." Like, did you raise any of those things?Janice: No, I didn't, unfortunately, and a part of me felt just so--and I'm sure many of us as people of color feel like this--I honestly was, like, grateful that I had a job, 'cause I hadn't finished my Ph.D. yet. I was grateful I had a job. I was earning more money than I had ever earned in my entire life. I graduated with my Ph.D. when I was 30, so I was literally--most of my life I was in school, so I was used to, you know, not having health insurance. You know, when I moved to New York, I didn't have health insurance. So, you know, all of these things. I was grateful to have benefits, grateful to have a job, grateful to have my own office. That was a new experience for me. So I guess I didn't say anything. Not I guess, I didn't say anything, just because I was so grateful for the opportunity that I was afraid if I pointed these inequities out that that opportunity would be taken away from me. So I know that many times people of color, black people in particular, are in positions where maybe you didn't think you would get this far, and you have opportunities to sort of speak up, but you're worried that, by speaking up, it could jeopardize your job or jeopardize your opportunity, and that's how I felt, so I didn't say anything. I knew that in my mind I wasn't gonna be at that university for a long period of time, so I think that's what kept me going. I was just like, "This is a stepping stone," and ultimately it was, and I left that--I was only there for a year, and they didn't renew my contract, probably because I didn't finish--I hadn't finished my Ph.D., but I knew that it was temporary. Zach: So it's such a real point, right? Because I know there's--I mean, it's for good reason, right? So, like, black and brown folks, we'll get into these positions and we're like--and it's more than we've ever had before. So, like, not comparing--not relative to anyone else, just our own journey. Like, this is a peak, right? Relative to what we've experienced. And so then we're like, "Okay, well, you know, I don't want to say anything because this almost seems too good to be true already, so I don't want to mess this up."Janice: Right, exactly. Imagine if you had a job at, like, Google. Google is--like, you know, who wouldn't want to work at Google? And you're being treated unfairly by your manager or by co-workers and you felt like, "I never imagined being at this company. Let me just keep my mouth [shut]." Which a lot of us do. We're just like, "Let me keep my mouth shut," but Google is a company that I want to be at for a while, so it's like, what do you do? Especially--the easy thing, and, you know, when I hear people giving advice as far as, like, how to advocate for yourself, sometimes I hear people saying, "Just quit," and I think that that's ultimately what's gonna have to happen, but for some people that's not an option. If you're the sole bread-winner in your family and many people are relying on you and you're feeding many mouths, I think quitting sounds nice, but it's not practical, especially if you don't have anything else lined up. You just have to figure out--and then it goes back to the self-care. Because you're experiencing so much stress at work, what are you doing outside of work to sort of mitigate the stress that you're experiencing? And for me, that was one of the hardest years of my life because I had just moved to Connecticut. I was teaching in New York City, so I was commuting--it's only an hour commute on the train, but I was commuting to New York City every single day, and I was also teaching in Long Island, because they were--you know, ultimately they were underpaying me, they were overworking me, and then to supplement that I was so--there was a point in time where I was teaching seven courses, which, you know, anyone who teaches at the university level knows, like, three courses per semester is, like--three or four is, like, a very full courseload. Seven is, like, next level. I was teaching on Saturdays. It was, like, insane, the amount of classes that I was teaching, but my form of self-care was, you know, I was going to the gym a lot, and I was just--you know, a lot of fellowship, meeting up with friends, because, you know, the reality of it was that they were severely--you know, moving from universities, Zach, I was able to increase my salary by $30,000. They were underpaying me, like, a ridiculous amount, you know? And when I brought it up--that's something I did bring up when I was hired. I was like, "Why does my contract say this amount?" And the department chair was like, "Oh, well, you're paid based on a scale." It was a public university. So they base it off your teaching experience, your credentials, and because I didn't have a Ph.D. blah blah blah blah blah. So, you know, I did try to advocate for myself in that sense, but it was just kind of like, "Sorry, this is what you're gonna get paid," and I was just like, "Okay. Well, to supplement this, I'm gonna work at these other universities to get what I think that I deserve." So it was--it was really difficult. I think it's easy to say quit, but for many people quitting is not an option. So I think really going into what you're doing for self-care when you're experiencing this stress is important, and then I think planning your exit strategy. So if it's Google, maybe you want to have a year or two years or three years on your resume, but you know the environment is toxic. I wouldn't say just leave. I would say get that on your resume and build as many connections there as you can, but plan your exit strategy and save up money. If you really think that you have to leave at some point in the near future and you don't know if you'll have a backup job, then just plan, save up money. Make sure you do what you can so that, you know, when that day comes you're ready and it's not just like you made the decision off of a whim.Zach: It's just so true, right? 'Cause I know--I've seen it, and honestly I've done it, right? Like, where I've been in, like, really toxic environments, and I just left, but I left on--I didn't leave on the terms I wanted to leave on, right? So I wasn't prepared, right? I didn't have the financial backing that I wanted to have. You know, I just wasn't in the place that I wanted to be, but I finally just left. And that happens a lot, especially with our generation, right? Like, millennials, you know? 'Cause we'll just kind of bottle--especially what I've seen from black and brown folks is we'll just kind of bottle it up until we can't take it anymore, and then we'll just--you know, we'll leave. We'll just blow up and just quit, right? And you're right, like, that's not a sustainable way to function. I think the other point that you called out is super true, and I think it just really speaks to the different lived experiences of different folks, right, is that you said "Just quit." Like, for me, I'm a big advocate--I'll tell people to quit, right? But it's easy for me to tell people to quit when I'm a black American, my mom--I'm not sending money to my mom, right? Like, I don't have--it's just me and my wife, and my wife works. So it's like, if I quit my job, #1: I know that I could get another job very quickly, and so I'm projecting that on other people. Like, "You're only responsible for yourself," but that's not true. Right? Like, that's just not true. You have people--like, I have a really good friend who she's paying her mom's mortgage, her mom's health care. She's sending money back to her family in Nigeria. Like, she's doing all of these things on her very modest salary, and it's a toxic work environment, but she can't just leave. Janice: Mm-hmm, yeah. You know, sometimes people comment on my social media and they're like, "Why are we trying to change these white institutions? They don't want us there. Why don't we just build our own institutions?" And I'm all for that, but I think the reality of it is every single black and brown person is not going to be working in a black and brown-led institution, so what are we doing for those, you know, people of color who are not in those black-owned businesses? How are we creating an environment for them where that is sustainable? So I think that that's also an important point to look at, just really how are we overcoming, because the reality of it is that's just not what it is right now. You know, every single person is not at a black-owned company.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I know, like, even when Living Corporate started, right, like, a couple of critiques that we got early was "Why are you trying to teach people how to navigate these white spaces as opposed to trying to help people to build their own?" I'm like, "Okay, look. First of all, we can look at the history of America and we can see that there's been historical pushes that black and brown people--" Black folks, we've been creating our own things since antebellum, okay? So we've been building our own churches, our own fraternities, sororities, our own businesses, our own communities, and there's been a consistent whitelash against that. Now, that doesn't mean that we're gonna stop. We don't stop, and black businesses and entrepreneurship continues to grow. However, we also know because of historical inequity--it's just the way that white supremacy and patriarchy are set up--that those institutions will never be as big as Amazon. I won't say never, but it will be a long time before they're as big as an Amazon or a Google or even a Facebook, right? Like, that's just not the way it works, and so--I believe that underrepresented folks helped build this country. It is 100% reasonable and fair to have discussions about what does it look like for us to thrive here. None of these things would exist without us, so it is reasonable--I don't think it's one or the other. I think it's both and, but it's a fine and right discussion and pursuit on what does it look like to thrive in these spaces. Like you said earlier, like, everyone's not gonna be working at a black and brown place. Every black and brown person is not gonna be an entrepreneur, just like every white person isn't an entrepreneur. So, you know, most of us are gonna work for somebody, so waht does it look like when you work for somebody and likely--because again, we're in America--it's likely going to be a majority-owned space. What does it look like for you to be successful there?Janice: Absolutely, yeah. I think that that's--it falls on both, because I think that--and that's probably a whole 'nother conversation, because even marginalized groups hold negative views about their own identities, for example. Like, there's many negative stereotypes that black people ourselves perpetuate, and even if we're leading a company, we may have colorism issues, or we may be [?]. So there's, like--even if you're in a black-owned institution, white supremacy can still be rampant, and I think us understanding that is important too. 'Cause I get those comments sometimes where, you know, people are like, "Why are you trying to do this and do that?" And even with companies--you know, some people have asked me why I allowed or accepted a partnership with Papa John's when the CEO is obviously--the former CEO, I'm sorry, is probably racist, and I said, you know, "If this company is going to try to make amends and is going to try--" And, you know, they've done other initiatives where they're trying to really show that now they're focused on diversity and inclusion. I'm not gonna say no, and I'm not gonna say, "I'll never take your money." They've hired a black woman as their chief diversity officer. They've hired a Ghandian man as their chief branding officer. Shaq is now on their board of directors. The CEO is no longer on the board. So they've been doing things. You know, they donate to HBCUs. So different things that I'm like, "Okay, I can accept that they're trying to fix what it is." But I think that it's tough, because it's like, do we forgive companies where they have many egregious actions that the CEO has committed? Do we forgive them, or do we just move on and just cancel them? I think that that's an important question to think about.Zach: It is, right? But I guess here's my challenge with that. So first of all, like, when you're talking about getting that money from Papa John's, the only thing I was thinking about was [cha-ching sfx]. Like, listen. [laughs] This is my whole thing, right? So I don't think that, like, we really talk about, like, how capitalist America is, right? Like, you need money to survive. Like, you need money to do anything, and so, you know, if you want to say, "Okay, well, I'm not gonna take this money from Papa John's," okay, so are you gonna take this money from Johnson & Johnson? Are you gonna take this money from--[laughs] like, all of America was built on slavery and oppression and exploitation of black and brown people, and people of color as well. So, like, including Asian-Americans too. So, like, we wouldn't have any of this. So, like, if you wanted to, like, again--I don't like saying the term "slippery slope," but my whole thing is, for me, if you're going to give me the bag--if you give me the bag, as long as you know that I'm not gonna adjust my message and you're not asking me to adjust my message or expecting me to adjust my message, I'ma take the bag, right? Now, there are certain groups, you know, that I'm not taking the bag from. Like, I've had people--you know what? This is, like, breaking news. I haven't told anybody on Living Corporate this. So, you know, someone actually hit me up and wanted to get Candace Owens on here, and I said--Janice: Really?Zach: Yeah, and I said no.Janice: Wow. That's interesting.Zach: I said no. I said, "You big buggin'."Janice: [?] Living Corporate. Interesting. What are your thoughts on--I have my own thoughts [both laughing] on her. I watched her--did you watch the Revolt summit that she was [in?]Zach: I did. I did see her up there being loud and wrong.Janice: Yes, yeah. But one thing that I didn't like was I think when you bring people with opposing views, you have to allow them the opportunity to at least speak, even, like--and my husband disagrees with me. He's like, "She's lying. She's full of lies. Why even give her the opportunity or the platform?" And I'm like, "Well, that's why they brought her up there."Zach: They brought her up there though. So if you're gonna bring 'em up there, then you gotta let 'em talk.Janice: Yeah, and that's why--and my husband's like, "No, but she's just blatantly lying," and I'm just like, "Yeah, but they brought her up there to speak," and I think that--that's interesting. Did you tell the person no? Or did you say you'll think about it?Zach: Oh, no, no. I said "Hell nah." Like, off the top. [laughs] All the Southern in me came out, 'cause it was like, "No," right? Like, I'm not doing that.Janice: Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder what she would speak to, because as far as I know she's not in corporate America. She just, you know, does these talks, or she has her YouTube channel and she--but, you know, that's interesting. [laughs]Zach: So then the same person was like, "Well, I'm also friends with Ben Carson. Would you like to have him on?" I was like, "No." I said, "No," and I said, "No," because I was like, "Look, one, that association is not making any sense." Like, "We're not--it's not gonna be a conversation. It's gonna be me tearing down some old black man. That's not cool." Because I literally don't agree with anything he's doing. So I was like--but this is my thing. So, like, at that level, I'm like, "No. I'm not taking a bag from them." But, like, a Papa John's? Yes, I'll take a bag from Papa John's. Facebook? Yes, I'll take a bag from Facebook.Janice: Yeah. Yeah, because I think the difference between Ben Carson and Candace Owens and Papa John's is that--and even Kanye West if you want to think about it--I haven't really seen any of them be apologetic. They're just like, "This is who I am," and they're gonna go on as many platforms as we'll let them speak. So it seems like your audience I don't think would be receptive to that and would just be like, you know, "Zach, you're just trying to get them on to get more clicks."Zach: For the clout, exactly. Janice: Exactly, so I think that with Papa John's and some of these other companies, they realize they've made a mistake and they're, like, trying to fix it, and I think that that's what would make me--I don't know. It's tough. I don't think we should just cancel companies where the CEO says or does something that is, you know--Zach: You need the bag. I think that goes back to what I was saying at the top. Like, look, we live in a capitalistic society. Like, if someone goes, "Hey, I messed up, and this is what I'm trying to do, and I really want to get around--" Like, "I'm trying to make moves," and whatever whatever, and there's a bag out there for you to--like, if the former CEO of Papa John's wanted to come on here and let me talk to him and grill him about why he said what he said, his background, what he's doing now to actually create an impact, like, today, if we could have that conversation, like, an accountable, frank conversation, and what advice he would give to other white senior leaders and executives on how to drive and be more inclusive and be more aware of their own biases, anti-blackness, et cetera, if we could have that type of conversation, he's more than welcome to come on the show.Janice: Absolutely.Zach: You see what I'm saying? The current inclusion and diversity leader for Papa John's? Of course they're welcome to come on the show, but like you said, like, someone coming on just to be like, "Nah, I'm just gonna be loud, proud and wrong," it's like... no. That's not gonna work.Janice: Yeah, exactly. So I think that sometimes we feel like--you know, I don't ever feel like "Am I selling out?" But sometimes, you know, I'll get comments like that, where people are like, "Why are you focused on what people of color should do?" You know, I did an interview and I wrote an article about some mistakes that women of color make in tech, and somebody wrote me and said, "Why would the onus fall on the women of color in tech and not on the company?" And I said, "I've written many articles on what companies can do to be more inclusive, but I think it's also important to best position yourself to be successful." I've made mistakes in my career, and I've done things where I could have--you know, even as far as, like, branding myself. I've had a LinkedIn for years, and within the last two and a half years I've started to really get into LinkedIn, but I could've really been more active and gotten more opportunities from it. And there's been times when at work I've been antisocial and I didn't want to hang out with anyone that wasn't like me, and I think that that is problematic when you're trying to advance in your organization. Sometimes you have to go to those events, you know, mingle a little bit, smile and do whatever. And Minda Harts talked about this in her book "The Memo," about, like, the importance of sort of fraternizing with your colleagues and how that can help you when you're trying to advance. So I think that even as a woman of color in the workplace, I've made mistakes, so I think that's important to recognize and not just be like, "It's all the company's fault."Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And it's interesting, we've gotten the same type of feedback, right? But it's like--my whole thought is look, we're all grown. There's a certain level of agency that we have as professionals in our career, and yes, we're gonna talk about the systemic structural challenges. I think we would be doing--like, it's intellectually dishonest and insulting to not pair that--like, it's not either or, it's both and. And not equally on either side, right? Like, there are larger responsibilities that these organizations have to create inclusive and equitable and diverse spaces, and--and--and there's also responsibilities and just things that we can be aware of as underrepresented people in how to navigate these spaces, right? And it's not about respectability politics. It's not about anything that's asking you to sacrifice your dignity or your self-worth. It's about just you being knowledgeable, because there are things that people in the majority understand and they know in navigating work that we just literally don't know, and so it's about--that type of knowledge is incredible, and I know the article you're referencing that you wrote. But again, I think they go hand-in-hand. Look, this has been an incredible conversation, Janice. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Janice: Well, I just hope that anyone listening to this can just look at what each of us can do in our lives to really deconstruct oppressive systems. So even if that's something as, like, retweeting or reposting something that--like, the stories of someone from a marginalized group. I think that's still moving the needle and amplifying their voice. So I try to do that as much as I can and just highlight people that deserve the shine and may not get the shine, because even in the D&I space there's a quote-unquote hierarchy, and I think certain people--you and I have discussed this--get a lot of shine while there's other people doing a lot of the ground work who aren't recognized as much. Not that you should do things for recognition, but I think that amplifying other people's voices is important. So yeah, that's pretty much it. Anyone who wants to discuss things more with me can just find me on Instagram. I'm @janicejnice, or add me on LinkedIn. I'm Janice Gassam on LinkedIn. We can chat more.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, you know we're gonna have all of your links as well as your Forbes profile so that people can check out all of your super dope articles, so we got you on that. Y'all, this has been Living Corporate, okay? So good conversation as always. We have the best guests. That's right, I'ma say it. We have the best guests. And, you know, we typically do a thing--we typically drop air horns, and if I remember we drop 'em at the top, but, you know, I forgot this time 'cause I got too excited 'cause we were just having this super dope conversation, so I'ma drop 'em right here--[air horns sfx]--just thank you very much. This has been a super cool conversation.Janice: Thank you so much, Zach. It's been a pleasure.Zach: No doubt. Listen, y'all. Living Corporate. Google us, right? You get on Google or--what's another, Yahoo? I don't know. I really just be on Google. This is not even an ad. [both laugh] But you get on Google or whatever your little search thing is and you type in Living Corporate, and you'll see us, man. We're out here. We're on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate, and we have all the domains, right? So www.living-corporate.com, please say the dash. Livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.us. We've got all the livingcorporates, Janice, except for livingcorporate--like, all the way with no dash--dot com, 'cause Australia has that domain, but we got the rest of 'em.Janice: Oh!Zach: I know, right? They own this corporate housing thing, but if you go on the SEO, like, we hopping over them though. If you Google Living Corporate, like, we're hopping over them now, so we--I'm just saying, the brand is getting stronger. Let's see here. I think that's it, y'all. You've been listening to Zach, and I've been having a dope conversation with Dr. Janice Gassam, speaker, educator, mover, shaker, name taker, edge snatcher, writer. What else, Janice?Janice: System deconstructor.Zach: Yes! System deconstructor. Disruptor. Come on, bars. Let's go. All right, all right.Janice: An intentional inclusionist. [laughs]Zach: Ooh! Wait a second, intentional inclusionist? [Flex bomb sfx] Okay, okay, okay. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Season 3 officially kicks off with a special premiere episode! Our incredible hosts Zach and Ade spend some time catching up and talking about what they did over the holidays, and they also chat about a few things to get excited for in the upcoming season. More features, more profiles, more highlights - there's a lot to look forward to in the future! This show's a two-in-one, so be sure to listen to the whole episode. Ade graciously shares some very impactful content that she recorded themed around her career journey and eventual job offer, so you don't want to miss it.Click here to read the piece Zach mentioned titled "Democracy Grief is Real."TRANSCRIPTZach: Yearrrrrp. What's going on, everybody? It's Season--oh, my gosh. 1, 2... Season 3.A ghost: Sure is.Zach: More fire for your head top, and welcome back. Is that a ghost? Is that--A ghost: [whispering] "From the past, from the past, from the past..."Zach: From the past? Oh, my gosh. Y'all, welcome back Ade.[kids applause, then our hosts imitate air horns]Zach: Man, wow. Listen, it is 2020. It's 2020. Isn't that nuts? It's 2020. You know, I definitely want to say though, you know, I've missed you. Y'all know. Y'all have probably noticed that Ade has not been in the podcast regularly, hasn't been around, you know. Breaking my heart quite frankly, you know what I'm saying? I cried. You know? I was sad.Ade: [laughing] Like... okay. All right, sir. Zach: I'm just thankful. I'm happy that you're here, you know? Season 3 is gonna be crazy, right? We have a lot of stuff going on. We have, you know, More profiles and highlights from, you know, different companies. You know, we've had Accenture on, we've had the Coalition of Black Excellence on. We got some other conversations and things that we're cooking up, but nothing to share just yet, you know? We are working on a book. That's right, that's right. More to come on that later, but I'm just kind of throwing some teasers out there. We've got some other media that we're gonna be experimenting with this year. I'm really excited about that. And then, you know, we've got--what else, man? We've got, you know, Ade's--I'm not gonna step on Ade. So she has some content that we're gonna get into that she recorded as she gets into the next stage of her professional career and journey, but I'ma give her space to talk about that in a second. Before we go there though, let's talk about the holiday season. What did you do?Ade: Oh, God. What did I do? I--uh, I slept.Zach: Turn up.Ade: I ate.Zach: Yeah.Ade: And I twisted my ankle.Zach: How?Ade: I don't even want to get into it. [both laugh]Zach: Oh, no. [laughing] Okay. Um...Ade: The point remains. I survived. I survived the holiday season. I spent some time with my loved ones. I don't know if I've mentioned my nephews on here before, but I have two nephews, one who loves me and one [who] hates me. But, you know, thanks be to God. The one who hates me now loves me and he wants to spend time with me on a regular basis now. Zach: Children are a fickle beast, man.Ade: They are so terrible. They are unruly, and they are tyrants. [both laughing] But we love them anyway.Zach: Man, we do. I have a nephew. He is adorable. Goodness, gracious. He's adorable, but it's like--and I just realized I guess I should go ahead and drop the news. Sheesh, I'm talking about kids. Well, first of all, let me say this first. So I have a nephew. He is adorable. But he's a boy, right? And if I just--he's just gonna get away with everything if I babysit him 'cause he's just too cute, but he's mischievious. Like, he's a cute little mischievious kid, but I'm just not--and I'm just not tough enough, 'cause he's too cute. He's too cute, you know? Now, if y'all have ugly kids, like, bring 'em over. I'll be a great disciplinarian. But if your kid's cute--Ade: What?![record scratch sfx]Zach: [laughing] Nah, ain't no such thing as ugly kids. Children are a blessing, and it's awesome, and actually it's with that in mind, you know, I actually have some news, you know what I'm saying, I'd like to share. You know, if anybody follows me on Instagram--which y'all don't, 'cause my follower count is not that booming like that and I haven't posted on Living Corporate, but my wife and I are expecting our first child.Ade: Ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.Zach: A little girl. Very excited, you know what I'm saying? [ow sfx]Ade: You know, I just wanted to say that Ade makes a really great first name for baby girls. I'm just saying. Putting it out there.Zach: [inhales, then plays a laughing sound effect]Ade: Whoa! [both laughing] Whoa, what's with the personal attacks? Like...Zach: Oh, my gosh. Shout-out to my wife, my spouse, my queen, my rib, you know what I'm saying, Candis. Doing all the hard work, you know? I--you know, listen... I put in the work, you know what I mean, but I'm not really carrying the load, you know what I'm saying? So air horns for her. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? Just really appreciate her. You said you ate, but you talked about some food--so what did you eat? Like, what was your favorite thing?Ade: God, that's a good question. I absolutely could go back in, like, my memory bank and take a look at these photos that I took of my [?] plates.Zach: All right. Pull those up, 'cause I know for me--like, and shout-out to my grandmother-in-law. She made all types of vittles. They were delicious. [Ade laughs, making Zach laugh] And shout-out to my wife--Ade: Did you just say vittles?Zach: I did say vittles. I'm trying to bring vittles back in 2020. Ade: Why are you so old?Zach: Think about the last time--like, we have not, our parents have not, perhaps our grandparents are the last generation that use the word vittles casually.Ade: Right, and I think that's for good reason and we should leave that term there.Zach: It's SO old. Vittles, dawg? It's so, so, so, SO old. Ade: Kind of like you. We know.Zach: Kind of like me, that's right. I'm a whole 30 out here.Ade: That's wild.Zach: I know, right? 'Cause you just turned, like, 19.Ade: ...Um, first of all, 16, thank you very much.Zach: [laughs] No, not 16. Nope, nope, nope. There's no creep life around here. Nope, you are 24, right? Or 25?Ade: I am 25.Zach: Congratulations on turning 25.Ade: 25.Zach: I was gonna say--I was in the middle of my shout-outs and my thanks before you rudely called me old. So my grandmother-in-law and then my wife made some incredible bread pudding. She made bread pudding with crossiants and then didn't use buttermilk for the cream, instead used--what'd she use? Egg nog just because she ran out of butter and was like, "Eh, it's kind of the same." That egg nog was HITTING. I said, "Yo, what is this?" I mean, it got ate up. Shout-out to my sister-in-law Holly. She made some incredible mac 'n cheese. And Holly--listen, man, shout-out to Holly, man. She is cool people. Sister-in-law, you know? I definitely consider her a Bucky, you know what I'm saying, in this space of allyship and war and fighting for equity and justice for underrepresented people. And you know how I know Holly is an ally? And I haven't told her this, so if she listens to this podcast it'll be her first time hearing this. [Ade laughs] I knew that she was an ally--first of all she's an ally off top, 'cause, I mean, come on. She's been down. She's been doing this. But a reminder of her allyship--'cause this is not the determinant, 'cause she's be an ally off of a bunch of other stuff--a reminder of her allyship, she was making macaroni and cheese, and she baked the macaroni and cheese, and I said, "I knew it, dawg. I knew it." Ade: [laughs] I...Zach: No, let me tell you something. She has never--she has yet to let me down. She holds it down, bro. She holds it down. Ade: You are so incredibly canceled. I can't.Zach: [laughing] Shout-out to Holly, my sister-in-law. Shout-out to all of my allies out there. And if you call yourself an ally and you're not baking your macaroni and cheese, you are not an ally, dawg.Ade: We don't know you in these streets.Zach: We do not know you in these streets if you do not bake your macaroni and cheese. Bake it. It is not done until it's baked.Ade: Because I don't--what are you doing? You are serving undercooked food.Zach: What are you doing here? What are you doing here? You're giving me these wet, hot noodles? Bake it.Ade: That don't even sound right.Zach: It don't. How something wet hot--come on, relax. So anyway, but man, let me tell you something. The highlight, from a cuisine perspective, was when my uncle Marvin brought in these pecan candies. My goodness. Listen, I said [blessings come in sfx]. Boy, the bless--boy, ooh. Too good.Ade: [laughing] What is your problem? Man.Zach: Bro. Man, let me tell you something. And everybody got their own little bag. Handed me that bag, I said [Kawhi what it do baby sfx, laughing]Ade: All right. So you are just starting 2020 off on all types of foolishness. All right, heard you.Zach: Listen, man, I'm over here--I'm so excited, 'cause you ain't been around for a while, but see, since you've been gone, we've been using this soundboard. And I'ma share the soundboard--Ade: I can tell.Zach: Oh, listen. The soundboard is heat rock. [owww sfx] You know? I just really enjoy it quite a bit. So let me think about this. You still haven't talked about the food that you ate.Ade: Oh, yeah. I have been really on, like, a smoky kick lately, so I had, like--I made macaroni and cheese but with all smoked cheeses, and it was just--Zach: 'Cause you like cheese like that. We talked about this. Like, were you just introduced to cheese recently?Ade: Yes, I was very, very recently, like a year ago, introduced to cheese. I have discovered that I'm still quite lactose intolerant. Like, my ancestors were not with the lactose tip, but you know what? I'ma take my chances. I had my smoked mac 'n cheese, and I had it with the best collard greens I've ever made in all of my life. When I drizzled that little bit of just maple syrup right on it with that smoked turkey stock, I was just kind of like...Zach: Goodness, gracious!Ade: God loves me.Zach: Oh, He does. That's true.Ade: Like, this is--this is proof of the existence of the divine, and that dude loves me--or dudette, you know? Non-binary--Zach: Yes. You know, it's funny because, you know, you and I are sitting here, right? It was a crazy year. A lot of stuff going on. You know, things that we can share in time throughout Season 3. We're talking about physical health, mental health, emotional health, financial health, right? Career personal or professional development. It's interesting because, like--I don't know, man, and I'm kind of jumping all around 'cause I'm so excited. I'm excited for you to be here, but I'm excited just to, like, kick off this season, and so, like, this is, like, a loosey--like, we don't have a formatted, you know, interview or anything like that. We're just chopping it up, welcoming Ade back all the way, but I don't know, man. It's just been a lot, and it's just interesting because we were creating content for Living Corporate, and at the same time we were--you know, it was helping us while we were helping other people, you know what I'm saying? So let's do this. Like we said before, you have something that you already had, like, created and recorded that I think would be really helpful for us to put in on this episode, so why don't we talk a little bit about that and then we'll transition to that?Ade: Awesome.Zach: So talk to me about, like, what was it? Like, I know we talked about--like, your journey, you've had some updates in your life and what you've been doing professionally and personally. Like, what was it that we're gonna be listening to in a minute?Ade: Yep. I'm just gonna take a sip of my mimosa, because I just feel really good about where I am right now spiritually, so...Zach: There you go.Ade: [clears throat] La la la la. All right, y'all. So your girl is officially a junior software engineer. [champagne popping sfx] Pop! [laughs] Yeah, no. I started my new position as a junior software engineer, and it's honestly been surreal, my entire experience. I applied for a job, got a call back almost instantaneously. So I made it through the first call, the phone screening with the recruiter, and then I had a technical interview, and then I had an in-person interview that was also sort of technical, and then I had a job offer. And all of that took the span of a week and a half. I literally applied to the job on a Wednesday. The Friday after that--like, the week after that, on Friday, I had the job offer in my hand, and I actually had a competing job offer to move to Boston at the time. So it was--it honestly was an incredibly surreal experience. I went from there were days I would literally wake up to, like, five, six, seven, eight letters of rejection in my email first thing in the morning, and I would like to kind of explore a little bit further the toll that job searching takes on your mental health, because there's--there were certainly days when I would literally just feel dejected. In a society where you are kind of graded--not just graded, your worth is judged off of, you know, in relation to you and relation to your humanity, how much are you worth within a capitalistic system? And my job at the time was incredibly toxic. I felt dejected pretty much every single day waking up, but that wasn't the end of it, and I am so glad it wasn't. And it was, you know, thanks to people like you, people like my best friend Kendall, people like Liz, who really, like, affirmed me, because I have a tendency to internalize situations and, you know, look for ways in which these things were my fault. And I remember even having a conversation with Liz where she literally said, "These are all symptoms of an emotionally abusive relationship," and I'm like, "How do you have an emotionally abusive relationship with your job?" [laughs] But that's entirely real. It's a real thing, and just being able to step back from all of that and literally, like, wash my hands off at the end of the year and never have to speak to those people again or never have to be in a situation in which I feel as though I'm compromising my mental health for the sake of I have to take care of my family and I have to protect what's mine... yeah, you guys are gonna hear a whole lot more of that as the episode continues, but I'm nothing short of eternally grateful for the fact that 2019 is over, but it's over and I took it like a G. Zach: Yo, and shout-out to you for that. [both laugh] Yo, 2019 was hard.Ade: 2019 whooped my ass, okay? But you know what? I whooped it back.Zach: Listen, 2019 was--2019 was coming from your boy's neck, okay? It was like, "We're coming for you, sucka." It's like, "My gosh, leave me alone, 2019. What y'all doing?" But you're right though, and you know what? Look, it's a new year.Ade: Yep. New me.Zach: Yeah, it's a new year. New spaces, new mindsets. You know, new opportunities and just space to reset and really get bcak on it, right? Like, I'm hoping that most of us were able to take some time away for the holidays so we could come back at least somewhat refreshed for a new year, a new decade. You know, a lot of people have been saying new decade and stuff, but let's just take every day as a blessing that it's a new day, right? Like, you may not see 2030, right? But you have--if you're listening to this right now, you have this day today. And so just being excited about that. Let's see here. We're gonna transition over there. Before we do that, Ade, is there anything else that we need to talk about?Ade: I do want to make a quick note about--so we're currently in a time of upheaval. I'm not gonna make too much reference to that, I just want to kind of make the point--well, two points, one that we don't lose sight of humanity as a whole in trying to protect our daily reality, and two that you don't let whatever's happening in the news cycle sway you off of the intentions that you've set for this year. You set those intentions for a reason. You set those goals, whatever that you did, for a reason, and hopefully you are recognizing all the ways in which the news cycle could be causing any number of anxious or negative thoughts or anything like that, but I do want you to be able to step back, and by you I mean the entire Living Corporate family. Be able to recognize when you are stuck in a feedback loop of negative thoughts, negative news, negative content, and kind of find your way back to your center, because as long as there is a world out there, there is always going to be negativity to feed into, but don't let your 2020 start off with that. We literally just kicked 2019's butt. 2020, let's focus more on our communities. Let's focus on our mental health and smashing our goals.Zach: Yo, amen to that, you know what I'm saying? Like, I super agree. [Ade snapping in the background, laughing] And, you know, I think what you're speaking to also is, like--so you talked about upheaval. That reminds me of two things. One, I just read this article--and I'll put it in the show notes--called Democracy Grief is Real, and it's an opinion piece from the New York Times, which is, like--we can talk about the New York Times at a separate time, but this particular piece was very good, and just talking about the toll, the mental and emotional toll, that the world's events has taken on you. Like, just being more and more aware of, like, systemic injustices, oppression and, like, blatant unethical behaviors, like, just the impact that it has on you just living, right? Just you seeing that, what does it do to you? And I think, you know, to that point, like, I'm really excited because this season, we're gonna be talking about real structural inequity. We're gonna be talking about--like, we're really gonna be calling out white supremacy and patriarchy and privilege and access and holding people, institutions of power, to account when it comes to how they can better support and create more equitable places for black and brown folks, for underrrepresented folks, for non- straight white able-bodied men to work and to exist and to live, you know? I think 2020 is gonna be a really interesting decade in that you have, like--I think that there's a certain level of consciousness that, like, people are waking up to. I don't think there's gonna be some great revival or anything like that, so don't misquote me, but I do think that, like, certain things are coming to a head. I do think that, like, when you talk about diversity, equity and inclusion work, there just is gonna be less and less space for, like, the corporatized, white-washed talk tracks that we typically hear. I think that--I just don't see those things surviving. I think that, like, technology and just access is changing for black and brown folks to the point where--and this generation, like, they're just not gonna stay. Like, they're just not gonna stay and put up with being mistreated. And we've seen it already. Like, we've seen it. First of all, this is not a new phenomenon. We've seen this since--we've seen this from the jump, for black folks at least, but just for all oppressed groups in America, eventually there's going to be resistance, and I just think that that's bubbling up into these very, like, corporate spaces too, and so I'm excited because some of the guests that we have this season are really gonna be getting into that, really giving, like, really honest and approachable at the same time advice on what leaders can be doing to either disrupt or dismantle systems that have historically disadvantaged black and brown folks, underrepresented folks, and I'm just really excited about that. Like, we had a few people hit me up last season, Ade, like, kind of salty about, like, the content.Ade: Really?Zach: Yeah, just a little bit. Like, just a little.Ade: Why though?Zach: Why? Well, they were like--they just felt like some of it was a little too--a little too honest, a little too black, you know what I'm saying? But--Ade: May I address that real quick?Zach: Go ahead. [laughing] Ade: Ah, let me lubricate my throat. [clears throat] ~Kick rocks.~Zach: [laughs] There are folks who want to do diversity, equity and inclusion, but they're trying to figure out a way to do it without, like, offending white folks or offending the people in the majority, so--Ade: Which I don't understand. I don't believe your sincerity as someone who professes that--and I recently saw a tweet, and I wish I could quote my source, but I saw someone say "Switch the D in DE&I from Diversity to Decolonization."Zach: Oooooooh! Ade: Fire.Zach: That--wait, hold--what? Yo, that is--Ade: Fire. Fire.Zach: No, that is--[Flex bomb sfx] That is fiiiiiiiireeeee. Are you kidding me? [air horns sfx] Switch the D from diversity to decolonization?Ade: Bro, it literally changed for me the entire framework of DE&I, because if you were taking a liberation stance within the context of what a workplace environment needs to be, you are approaching that from the context of not only do we not care about your discomfort, we're actually actively pursuing your discomfort because your discomfort is where your decolonization lies. Like, that's where you're going to address all of the biases you have that you've had the privilege thus far of not having to confront. And not even your biases, but we're, like, actively taking back space from you and giving voice to the people that have been deliberately silenced in these spaces. So again, the reason I say kick rocks is because, I mean, we're decolonizing this space. This is a decolonized space, my accent aside, so we're really not--[both laughing] Inside joke. So as far as I'm concerned, like, there's no such thing as prioritizing the feelings of the oppressor over the oppressed. And yes, by default, if you are not the oppressed, you are the oppressor. That's--Zach: And this is a binary that we actually accept on Living Corporate, you know what I'm saying? You know, we affirm LGBTQIA+ identity, right? You know what I'm saying? We had content last season about being non-binary. Yo, that's great though. I'm trying to find this tweet that you said. If you just made that up it's still fire, but--Ade: I swear I saw it on Twitter.Zach: It's just a great quote. I love that. I love that. But no, you're absolutely right, and I think it's interesting because when you hear some of the episodes--when y'all hear some of the episodes that, like, we have this upcoming season, it's all about, like--like, these are people who are CEOs of, like, diversity, equity and inclusion firms. Like, they're consultants. They're executives. And I'm noticing there are certain, like, benchmarks around, like--you can kind of tell, like, kind of just where people are, but most people tie the diversity--they tie equity to justice, right? Like, when you talk about the true DE&I work in this space, it's all about justice, and it's interesting because I've seen, like, executives of, like, major corporations talk about--there was a recent article from Harvard Business Review about creating, like, black equity at work, and I was like, "Look, y'all are retweeting that. Consider what this means before y'all start saying you want equity at work." Equity at work means, like, a certain level of, like, right-sizing (?) and really, like, restorative behaviors that, like, America hasn't even, like, grasped onto yet. So, like, the concept of equity when it's truly driven to, like, its--like, when it's really grasped is, like, radical. Like, that's a radical thing to propose, and it would disrupt and disassemble so many things that have been longstanding, that have been comforting, to those in the majority, and so anyway... my whole point is that, like, I'm looking forward to, like, scaring myself with the content that we're putting out this season. I don't want to make--I don't want to pull any punches. I'm just excited about this season. So if you're listening to this and you're passionate about being seen, being heard, you're underrepresented, or you're an advocate, an ally of the underrepresented at work, and you'd like to journey with us, you'd like to be on the show with us, just contact us through the website. I guess that's it, you know? What we're gonna do now is we'll pivot over to Ade's recording that she had, and this was last year, so if you hear any references that's what that's about, but we're really excited for y'all to check that out. Ade, any parting words before we transition up out of here?Ade: No, let's just, in 2020, resolve to live our best lives, and I mean that in, like, the healthiest way possible. I've been guilty of using that phrase to justify the worst of my excesses [?] in the past, and no promises that I won't do so again in 2020, but let's resolve to, you know, prioritize our health, and our mental health in particular, and, you know, check in on your friends, because many, many, many of your friends are having a difficult time and don't know how to say it, but I believe in the power of community, and I believe that we as a whole are capable of holding each other accountable, yes, but also really uplifting each other in ways that are awesome to behold. And I do mean that in the old school awesome--shout-out to Zach, you know, reviving the meanings of old words, but... [both laughing] Old school awesome in that, like, awe-inspiring [way]. But yeah, you're listening to Living Corporate, y'all. [both laughing] Peace.Zach: All right, y'all. Welcome to Season 3. Hope y'all stay around. Excited for y'all to come on this audio adventure with us this year, and we'll catch y'all, shoot, next week. Peace.Ade: What's up, y'all? This is Ade. I just wanted to pop my head back in. It's been a very, very long time since I've been around, and it's been intentional. It was an intentional break. I had to--this has been a very difficult year for me, but also one of the best years of my life. I had to take a step back from a lot of things and really reassess, you know, my journey, my progress, and really where I'm trying to go with my life. That sounds like a lot. Good news, bad news. Bad news is, you know, I turned 25 and I still don't know what I'm doing. [laughs] I still don't truly know the meaning of life, my life, but, you know, it's cool. I'm still defining that, building my parachute on the way down. Good news. Remember when I said I wanted to be an engineer? I did it! I got an official offer, and I will be starting in my role very, very soon. Your girl is officially a full stock software engineer - junior software engineer, but a software engineer nonetheless, and I just kind of wanted to share what went into all of this. It's been nearly two years. Actually, it's been two years since I decided that I was gonna do this, and it's been I think the hardest thing I've ever done, and this episode is all about telling you how and why. This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. In order to be successful, I have distilled all of the things that I've learned down to three key ingredients - grit, faith, and humor. So many of you have been following this podcast for a while, and you might not know, me, since I've been gone for such a long time, you may not know why I am where I am and what led me to deciding that I was gonna become a software engineer, and the story I always tell is that, you know, on the eve of my 23rd birthday I wrote 23 promises to myself, and the very first one was that I was gonna learn a new skill and I'd learn how to code. What a lot of you don't know is that the reason I even got there in the first place is because I went through a really, really bad break-up--and this is gonna be, like, super vulnerable, and I am not gonna make eye contact with anybody who listens to this for, like, a solid year, because I don't bare my soul this often. [laughs] Yeah, so I went through a really bad break-up, and it had me questioning, you know, myself, my self-worth, whether I was a good person, and it really, like, shook me to my core, and in the midst of this break-up, right before my birthday, I had gone to a workshop called Hear Me Code. It's an organization now semi-defunct, but it's led by a lady named Shannon Turner, who takes an afternoon and just teaches a whole bunch of women the basics of Python. And there are three levels. There's Level 1, which is what I found myself in, and then you have Level 2, who are people who have already been to Level 1 who have the fundamentals and are trying to get a little bit better, and then you have Level 3, which is people who have been to both Level 1 and 2 or are more intermediate programmers and are, like, [?] projects and all of that, all of the other fun stuff. Now, into this little story is where I find myself. I went to this thing. I had dropped out of grad school. I was, again, in the middle of this, like, super toxic break-up, and I just needed to feel good about myself, and so I decided, "You know what? I'm gonna be spontaneous and I'm gonna do this thing." And I had this old rinky-dink laptop. It took, like, 15 minutes to get started. And I didn't know a thing about anything. My whole life up until this point had been political science and sociology and philosophy, and I consider myself a relatively cerebral person, but, like, not smart. Like, I was not--I didn't consider myself in any way technical. I avoided math like my life depended on not knowing what, like, algebra was. It really--I defined myself as a person who was incapable of doing certain things, and programming would be one of those things, and so in this time when I found myself and my definition of myself unraveling, I needed to know that I was still capable of finding joy in the little things. So I went to this workshop, and I loved it. Like, my computer couldn't, like, do anything, so I actually found myself on a website called Repl.it, and it's basically, like, an online environment where you can write code and run it and see it work, and you don't necessarily need to have, like, mastery over your terminal, you don't need to concern yourself with anything that's going on on the backend. You can literally just, like, print "hello world," and it'll print hello world, and it is a magical, magical place. And this was important because first it showed me the value of creating. Never considered myself a creative, but being able to be in a space where I was literally, like, forming whole things and commanding the computer to do something and it did it, I felt powerful. I felt like a magician. I thought, "You know what? I'm gonna learn how to code," but then my computer died and I packed that up, and I didn't really pick up programming again for several months after and then came the end of October. I had, you know, moved out of my apartment at the time. Again, this, like, really, really scary thing had happened to me with my ex, and I had moved home, and I felt like a failure, and I was, like, laying in a sleeping bag next to my mom's bed, and I was up all night just, like, writing these promises to myself. I had sourced promises from other people, but the very first thing I could recall thinking was, like, "I want to be better. I want to be a better version of myself, and the gap between who I am now and the best version of myself can be bridged. I know it." So I thought "You know what? I'm gonna challenge myself. I'm gonna make these promises, and I'm going to keep t hem, and I'm going to find 24-year-old Ade to be a better version than 23-year-old Ade, period. No questions about it. I'm not doing this again." So I wrote those promises and I asked the people I love to hold me to them, and in the next year I moved out--like, I think three weeks after that I found another apartment, moved out to Alexandria, found a job that I really liked, and it all seemed to be coming together, but then my computer, the old rinky-dink computer, just died, and I didn't have a whole lot of, like, personal time, so programming just kind of went by the wayside. Like, I would pick it up every once in a while, and I would complete a couple of sessions or a couple of lessons, and that'd be that, but then I applied for this Udacity scholership and I got it, which, if you know anything about me it's that, like, I really don't win things very often, which goes into the narrative that you tell yourself about yourself, right? About whether or not you're a winner or whether or not you're deserving, whether or not, like, this life thing is a thing that you can succeed at. And, like, as a side-bar, negative self-talk has been a thing for me as long as I can remember. I have never been the sort of person who wakes up in the morning and is like, "You can do this. You're amazing. You're awesome. You can take anything that life throws at you," etc. A. I'm not a morning person, so, like, don't talk to me until 11:00 a.m., and B. I just never had the voices in my head that were, like, super positive. Like, all the voices in my head were kind of assholes. Sorry to whoever's listening to this and doesn't like bad words, but they were, and so throughout this process I've actually learned that, like, affirmations are a huge, huge, huge thing for your mental health, and it's something that I incorporate now into, like, my life. Like, affirmations. You need to hear yourself speaking well of yourself to yourself, and if you take nothing else from this podcast, take that. So we're back in, what is this, 2018? Yeah. Is it 2018? I don't think it's 2018. What is this, 2019? The years melt together. Yeah, it is 2018 actually. So in 2018 I have this fantastic job, friends, and I meet somebody new, and everything is going swimmingly, but I'm not truly, like, learning at the pace that I should be, so I'm going to tell you about the very first mistake that I think I made out of--the biggest mistake I made, not the very first one, because whoo, there were many. There were many, they were varied, and they were huge. Now the very first mistake I made was that I let myself get distracted. Life is not a distraction. Joy is not a distraction. Being social, letting yourself love and be love is not a distraction. What is a distraction is when you create a goal for yourself and you do not take the necessary steps in order to get there. Now, there were times throughout this journey--and anybody who knows me can attest to this--where I'd work a full work day and I'd come home and work until 2, 3, 4, 5:00 a.m. in the morning even studying, or I'd wake up at 2:00 a.m. and study all the way through, get dressed, go to work, come back home, continue studying. And I'm not saying that that's something that you have to do, I'm just saying that it's what I did. Then there were days where for, like, weeks at a time, I would not pick up a book. I would not open my Udacity course. None of those things. And allowing yourself to be distracted in that way is doing yourself a disservice, not only because your brain relies on consistency--like, you literally need consistency in order to get anywhere, right? Like, sometimes we have this fantasy in our heads that, like, we're smart, so all it'll take is, like, the movie montage of, like, a week of studying something, then you'll be perfect at it. But if you've ever heard of the tale of 10,000 hours, like... Lebron James and Gordon Ramsey and Insert Person Who Has A Mastery Of Their Art Here didn't get where they got because they put in a week of work. It required constant effort and practice to attain perfection, and allowing myself to get distracted was so much more detrimental than the times in which I would go at something for hours at a time, simply because during the distractions are where your negative self-talk becomes the loudest, right? Like, when the voices in your head that are telling you you're not capable of doing it, in that lull, that's when they seem right, right? Like, you don't do something correctly and you say, "Oh, my God. I'm never gonna amount to this lofty goal that I set for myself," right? Then you procrastinate and then you walk away, and now you have one more goal unfulfilled. So if you take, yet again, nothing else from this podcast, consistency is key. So if you remember at the beginning of this conversation I said "grit, faith, and humor." So grit is the concept that you are persistent, that you allow yourself to fail and you pick yourself up and you keep going. Actually, over the course of my studies I developed a mantra for myself because it got to be almost crippling, this fear that I had of failing, so I'm gonna read it to you guys. I hope it's helpful. I hope you guys like it. So here's my mantra: "This is why I'm here. I like succeeding at the difficult things. I like the win. I like the burning in my lungs and the adrenaline in my veins. I like the view from the top of the mountain and knowing I conquered. I am not a quitter. I do not lose. I will not be defeated by the gaps in my knowledge. I will not be defined by what I cannot do. I believe in my ability to make sense and wholeness out of the things that are new and scary. I will not be ruled by fear. Ever." There were days where I would write that mantra out to myself over and over and over again on a pen and a pad of paper. I would type that out before I got started sometimes on my lessons. I would read it over and over and over at myself in the mirror. Because fundamentally, this thing that I'm doing where I'm trying to, like, shift the course of my life--and it felt like the weight of my whole family was on my shoulders--that's scary. It's intimidating. If you don't have grit, it might crush you. And that goes for literally anything. For those of us who are underrepresented minorities, who are first-gen, who are the first in our families to attain a certain level of success, you know how scary that success is and the bare-knuckled grit that you have on everything to make sure that nothing falls and nothing fails. You have to let go of that. That fear is only keeping you from being the best version of yourself. By the way, this whole process didn't turn me into, like, a motivational speaker either. So [laughs] if you want to, like, skip through half of this, that's totally okay. I'm not taking offense. All right, so I told you why you need grit. Now why do you need faith? Faith got me through the worst of what grit couldn't. After I got to a place where, you know, I had done all of the things that people say that you need to do--you learn the fundamentals, and then you learn the framework, then you build projects, build more projects, build a portfolio, build more projects--after I did all that I started applying. I applied to internships. I applied to externships. I applied to jobs in Poland. I applied to jobs in Iceland. I applied to jobs that would require me to live in places where it's -20 degrees on a regular-degular-schmegular day, and I don't know if you know me, but I'm African, and we don't do that. [laughs] And every single time I got, like, a "No, thank you. Sorry, but no thank you. We have decided to move on to other candidates at this time. Best of luck." One that actually really shattered me--I got all the way through a lot of the screening questions, and this company that shall not be named sent me a link to a personality quiz. And I took it. I was like, "Okay, cool. Whatever." And then they sent me an email back like, "Sorry, your personality is not best-suited for my company." I'm like, "Wow. My whole personality, fam? My whole personality is not best-suited to be a software engineer? Bet." But I had faith, right? Like, you reach a plateau once you have done the work and you've put in the effort and you've put in your blood, sweat, and tears--I actually bled once. Long story. Don't want to talk about it. [laughs]--and yes, there were lots and lots of tears, but once you get there there's a certain faith that you have, right? And it helps when you have people around you who keep you keeping the faith. For me, I had my best friend. My best friend is also a self-taught developer, and it's really uncanny, but we're the same person. He has, like, 8 years on me, but we are genuinely, like, the same person. It is so odd. We have the exact same reactions to things, the same mentality, but he's a better version, right? Like, he's had 8 years to hone his craft. And the level of dedication and will that he showed, I had to level up. I had to match that level of intensity, and when I ever felt like I couldn't do it, he always came through with a pep talk. Before my very last interview where I got this position, I will never forget. I was on my way to my interview, and he literally said, "You're not looking for a job to be a developer. You are a developer. You're just looking for a chance to prove it." And that confidence I think showed up in my interview, because I have never spoken so confidently about MPC controllers. [laughs] I've never spoken so confidently about use-state hooks in my life. And that faith that I had that everything was gonna work out, I keep that still, right? Like, ever since I got the position, I've had the recurring thoughts of "What if I get there and I flame out? What if they rescind their offer three days before I get there?" You know, any number of, like, worst-case scenarios, and I now have this new voice--super quiet, but it's there--that's saying, "Bro, you'll be okay. The same way you got that job is the same way that if anything happens to that job you'll get another, because you've done the work. You've done the work and you've gotten this far. Doesn't matter what anybody else says now." So last thing you'll need is a sense of humor. You may have heard me chuckling a few times, and that's because I remember the number of days where I literally would have to get up in the middle of my studies and have a dance break. I would reward myself with dance breaks, whether or not my code was actually working, because I felt that because all of this was so heavy and because I needed to tap into my, like, inner wells of grit and strength that I did not have before I started this process--trust me, I was a wilting flower in the sun before any of this got started, and I'm still a wilting flower in the sun in a lot of ways, but--levity and humor are so underrated, because it literally lightens your spirit, right? Like, finding a way to find a way to laugh will take you far, not only because it shows that, like, you're still here, like, the core of your personality has not changed, it also shows that, like, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. You might feel like you're going through the crucible of your life at this point, but at the end of it life is still what you make it, right? And I just laugh through things. I choose to find the levity and find the joy and find the light and hold onto it, and that's all I'm gonna say about that. In whatever ways you find humor and find joy, I encourage you to hold onto that. So now some actionable tips, because I've just been giving you the feels. [laughs] Some real things that you can actually do if you want to be a developer. #1: Set a goal. That was the very first mistake that I made. I said, "I want to learn how to code." I didn't say, "I want to learn how to be a front-end developer or a back-end developer or a full-stack developer or a DevOps engineer." If you don't know what any of those things are, good. Go look them up. Anybody these days who asks me how they can break into tech, how they can learn how to code, how any of those things, the very first thing you need to do is define your goal, set it, and then develop your roadmap, because otherwise you are literally going to be twisting in the wind because you have no idea where you're going. There's nothing worse than a nebulous understanding of what you want. If you start a journey, you have to know where you're going. I mean, sure, you can do what I did and, like, get in the car and say, "I want to go somewhere," and, like, find yourself stranded in the middle of Oklahoma... but, like, I wouldn't advise that. Don't do that. Do it the smart way. Define what you actually want to do. Sometimes you might, like, look up what front-end developers do and be like, "Yeaaaaaaaah, no. How about I go into cybersecurity?" Like, it's an entire about-face, which is why you need to--it's a good thing to do to define the parameters. It also helps you know when you have succeeded, right? A lot of the fear that I had when I first started to apply to positions was that, like, I don't know that I'm a developer yet, right? I don't know that I'm good enough to apply to places, and that's because I never defined for myself what it means to be good enough to apply to places, right? There are places that will take you when you are, like, an unformed ball of Play-Do and fashion a developer out of you, and then there are places that want you to show up as Michelangelo's David and then, and only then, will they give you a position in the company, and then there are places that are vastly varied in-between and you have to figure out what it means to, like, throw your dart at one of those places in-between or, you know, whatever end of the spectrum you want to live in, and know that you're able to get into those doors. Set a goal. #2: It is okay to reassess or change your mind. When I first got started, I said, "I'm gonna be a front-end developer." Actually, no, I said, "I'm gonna be a full-stack developer," and then I said, "I want to be a blockchain engineer." And then I said, "I don't want to do this at all actually. Never mind. I change my mind." And then I said, "You know what? Being a full-stack engineer sounds good. How about I do that?" You can do that, just make sure it all goes back to #1. Make sure that once you've changed your mind, once you've reassessed, once you've course-corrected, you still set a goal and define for yourself what it means to have reached it. Cool. #3: Learn from others. I cannot stress this enough. Learn from others. Learn. Learn from others. Quick ASMR for your head top. Learn from others. It's important. A. This is an industry, tech in general, that is far more collaborative than you might think it is. If the idea you have of hackers in your head is the person who's, like, in a basement somewhere and frantically, like, typing on their keyboard and I don't understand how they haven't broken their keyboard, but they're frantically typing and you see a whole bunch of, like, green letters and numbers on their screen, and it's great, and then, like, five seconds after they stop typing--[Ade types frantically]--"Got it! I'm in." Yeah, no. That's... no. If I'm typing that furiously, it's because I'm looking around on StackOverflow trying to figure out where I went wrong. There are whole communities on Reddit, StackOverflow, Free Code Camp, which are geared towards helping you not sit and look for six hours for an answer to a question that 100 million people have also spent six hours searching for an answer to. Like, you literally can go to StackOverflow or, like, type out whatever your error is, and then at the end of your error type "StackOverflow," and I can almost guarantee you--like, you're not the first person to break whatever it is that you broke. There is nothing new under the sun. Maybe a new language, maybe a new framework, maybe a new whatever, but there is something that is so new that somebody else hasn't thought about it, asked that question and probably solved it. So yeah, allow the successes and failures of others to help inform you. Learning from others is not just about being online. Part of the thing that helped me, I went to meet-ups. I actually briefly served as an organizer for Black Code Collective, which, like, will forever have my heart. Women Who Code, [?]. There's so many different meet-ups. And, you know, D.C.'s not unique in having those organizations. They're all over. Go to meetup.com, as long as it exists, and look for those communities near you, and be intentional about the workshops that you go to, the people that you meet, because those networks are also important. You do not have the luxury, if you're a self-taught developer, of sitting back and waiting for the universe to, like, drop knowledge or networks or contacts or jobs into your lap. You have to do the legwork of developing and building those communities for yourself, which brings me to my final point. Standing on the shoulders of giants still requires you to do the work. I'm gonna repeat that because I kind of said it fast. Standing on the shoulders of giants still requires you to do the work. One more time for those in the back. Standing on the shoulders of giants still requires you to do the work. You have to do the work. There are no shortcuts through it. I'm not one of those people that, like, tells you, "You have to work 50, 60 hour weeks in order to get where I am." I'm telling you what I did. But there's something universal about what anybody else has done. You have to do the work. We all have done the work. We're going to continue doing the work, because this is not an industry that stagnates. I'm sure whatever I learned back in 2018--I mean, literally, what I learned in 2018 about React has changed because of React Hooks. So I don't know what to tell you. You have to do the work. There's nobody who's gonna, like, come and crack your skull open and dump all that there is to know about programming in your head or whatever it is that you want to study, whether you want to be, like, in cybersecurity, you want to be a PIN tester, you want to be a cloud engineer, cloud architect. None of those things are going to happen unless you do the work. You have to do the work, and for those of us--this is a part that I hate having to say, but for those of us who are underrepresented minorities, you will hear people say "Take shots that mediocre white men will take," because, you know, "They're a mediocre white man and they'll take it, so why can't you?" I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying that you have to pull up to those rooms as the person that you are because they will check you in ways that they won't check the mediocre white man. If there are gaps in your knowledge, that's something that a weekend of studying can fix. You cannot allow there to be gaps in your will. You cannot allow there to be gaps in your faith in yourself. Well, yeah, that comes right back to the very first thing that I mentioned - grit, faith, and humor. You cannot allow there to be gaps in any of those things. I hope this helped. I am also gonna be writing a thread about this later on. There's a thread out there, it's called #30DaysOfThreads, and I'm probably gonna be contributing to that hashtag just to share more concretely some of the tools, some of the resources that I've used, so I look forward to sharing some of that information with y'all. I really hoped that this helped and I wasn't just, like, ranting for no reason. [laughs] Which I've been known to do, and I hope that, for those of you who are going on a similar journey--and this has been pretty tech-specific thus far, but people do career pivots in any sort of direction, right? Like, there are people who are pivoting from having a 9-to-5 to being an entrepreneur, and I think there's some things that are universal. If you are pivoting from being a banker to being a teacher, there's some things that are universal. You are going to need grit. You are going to need faith. You are going to need humor. Maybe that should be the title of the show, I don't know. [laughs] All right, that's it from me. Thank you for listening. The Living Corporate family has been incredibly supportive. I want to thank Zach in particular for not giving up on me, because somewhere between all of those months--I think there were months at a time that I gave up on myself, and it showed, [laughs] but we're here now. I also want to give a quick shout-out to my grandma, who died I think two weeks before--was it two weeks? Yeah, two weeks before I actually got this position, and now I'm gonna be a little teary on the mic. Like I said, 2019 was a hard one, but... I come from a very long line of powerful, intelligent, capable women, and she was one of those, and the world is a slightly dimmer place without her, but... I gained an angel, and there's nothing more empowering than knowing that you did this thing, turned everything around for yourself, and being able to, like, look up and say, "I did it, and I know that she saw it." Okay, I'm gonna stop now. I've been, like, more vulnerable in this I want to say 40+ minutes than I've been in, like, a year, so this is my dose of vulnerability and realness. I'm gonna go back to masking my vulnerability with many, many things that I'm not gonna be discussing on this podcast. [laughs] All right, I'm gonna go. Thank you so much for listening, for your support, for your guidance, for your prayers. This has been Ade. You've been listening to Living Corporate. Peace!

Zach welcomes Angela L. Shaw back to the podcast to talk about what it looks like to both create opportunities for yourself and model inclusive behaviors as a leader and more. She also offers people of color three points of advice on how they can navigate the process of creating your own opportunities.Connect with Angela on LinkedIn!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now look, we have great guests on the show. Y'all should know this, right? And every now and then we get folks who come back to the show because, you know, we had such a great conversation. And look, I don't want people--if you came here one time, don't get in your feelings, okay? You can also come back, okay? These people just happened to come back, and we love the fact that they came back. If you're listening to this and you were only on the show one time and you're like "Dang, well, what's that supposed to mean about me?" Listen, hit us up, come on back, okay? That being said, we do have a returning guest, Ms. Angela Shaw. [kids cheering sfx] Angela, how are you doing? Welcome back.Angela: Thank you, Zach. I'm doing fantastic. I am on top of the world. I love my life. And thank you so much for letting me come back. I'm super excited to talk today.Zach: Oh, nah, nah, nah. You know what I'm saying? I mean, you know, when we found out, you know, you could come back, I was just over here like [that ain't no problem sfx]. You know, it's not a problem at all. Like, I'm excited that you're here, you know what I mean? Now look, the last time we spoke you were--you know, we were talking about professional reinvention and how you really, like, created an HR career for yourself, and really--you're also the president-elect of [?] Austin, right?Angela: That is correct.Zach: Right? So you were appointed, you know what I'm saying, as president, but you were not yet, you know, anointed as president, you know what I'm saying? So what have you been up to since then?Angela: Well, Zach, I'm president this year all year. [what it do baby Kawhi sfx, both laugh] And I'm making it count. And I want to say the reinvention continues. Like, it doesn't stop. It is a continuous thing. I am continuously trying to reinvent myself and stay relevant. This year as president has been so humbling, but it has been so successful and so wonderful. My platform as president is #PushForProgress related to diversity and inclusion, so I really in my chapter try to model the behavior that I think everybody else should have when it comes to being inclusive. The board, my board, they've gotten on board with that. They are also modeling that behavior. Our meetings have been successful. We're having great attendance. We just had our annual conference, and Zach, let me tell you, we had not one but two inclusion keynotes, and they were fire. They were fire. I feel like it's something that my organization had not seen before, and it was successful, and it was uplifting, and it was allied behavior, and it was just--it was wonderful. I'm just--I'm so blessed and, you know, just living life. I mean, I'm fortunate to love what I get to do every day.Zach: So let's take it a couple steps back. You talked about--'cause again, you kind of gave me, like, an overview, right, but I gotta slow it down. So you talked about folks practicing and you modeling inclusive behaviors and then people practicing inclusive behaviors. What does that mean to model inclusive behaviors as a leader?Angela: We all have bias. I know a lot of diversity and inclusion people talk about the bias that everybody else has, but I think as a leader in the space you break down your own bias first. So I know I have bias. I've had them, you know, just growing up with my experiences. It is difficult to not be hardened by your experiences, but I had to unpack my own boxes first. So I had to look at what my bias was, and how do I go into an organization like AHRMA in a city like Austin with long history--you know, 69 years this organization has been in Austin. How do I go in and unpack my boxes and be the leader that everybody wants to follow? And so I speak to everybody. I say hello to everybody. I give before I get. I make connections, you know? I model the behavior that I want everybody else on the board and in my organization to have, because for me diversity and inclusion is grassroots. That's how I think about it. So every person that I can touch and make them want to activate their power--power is dormant until you activate it, and not activating it is the same as doing something negative with it. You're complicit. So I encourage everybody to activate their power for inclusion, and I model that behavior first.Zach: I got you. Okay, so what I'm hearing is you're coming in, you are engaging people groups that you may have implicit biases or even, like, conscious bias of, in the effort of making sure that they are--that they feel included and that they're a part of the organization, and then your board members, be they white men, black women, Latinx, trans folks, like, whoever, they are also engaging and reaching out across their cohort [?] to make sure that they too are being inclusive and that they too are, like, making sure that people feel as if they have a voice and that they are empowered to speak up and things of that nature.Angela: Absolutely, and we do actual things, like have greeters that greet everybody who comes to a meeting, that introduce themselves, that take them into the room to a seat and introduce them to other people. We have a new member orientation that I attend, every single one, so that I can stand up and tell everybody welcome and how grateful we are that they're there and that they support our organization. You know, this is actual behavior that we all have in activating our power for inclusion.Zach: Really helpful, and I love that. So when we talk about inclusion, a large part of inclusion really is all about, like, redistributing power or ensuring that other folks who have been historically disempowered have a voice and have some type of authority to make actual decisions, right? It's not just that they sit at the table. You have to have a voice at that table, right? What does it look like for you in your chapter to support folks actually have a voice and having power?Angela: Yeah. So our actual board is diverse, so whenever I was thinking about adding people to the board or talking to people about coming onto our board, I was very intentional in my outreach. So I didn't want the board to just look like one thing. I wanted people to see males and females. I wanted people to see different ethnic groups. And we have a diverse board, so that was the first thing. And then it was, you know, selling my vision to everybody for them to understand where I was trying to go with that and make sure that they were on board with it, and they've all been on board with it. The result has been that people who attend our meetings and who attended our conference have also been diverse. So there had been historically underrepresented people who did not always feel welcome for whatever reason, right? They didn't feel welcome. You know, that's no longer the case, so I know for sure that [HR&P?] are talking about the Austin Human Resources Management Association and probably a little bit around the state and nationally. We are inclusive. We are saying it and we are walking the talk too, so this is not just talk. It is we're having behavior, and you can see it and you can feel it.Zach: [to this day sfx]. I'm listening to you. I hear you. [both laugh]Angela: Zach, it's the truth. I'm telling you the truth.Zach: I'm--hey, what you want me to do? I already got the soundboard for you. I mean, [straight up sfx]. I mean, okay, I heard you. Hey, you're preaching. I'm just here. I'm listening. I receive it. You talked about unpacking your boxes, right? So for you to unpack your boxes and really, like, be honest and open about your biases, that takes a certain level of trust, right? Like, you can't just come in here--so let me just give you an example, right? [laughs] So, like, if you was at work, right, and I'm not--this is not your job. Let's just say--let's put the heat on me, okay? So let's say I'm at my job and, like, my boss, who's a white man, you know, is trying to be honest about his biases, right, and all of a sudden he says, "You know, Zach, I just have to tell you, I just never really liked the blacks." I'd be like [record scratch sfx]. Right? Like, I'd be like, "What do you mean? You can't just say that." What does it look like to safely communicate and share your biases in a way that facilitates conversation and trust? Angela: Yeah. So I think if we talk about your boss making that statement to you, obviously there is, on your part, needs to be some understanding. So one, they felt safe enough to even say that, so you've created a safe space to have a conversation. So we're gonna give cool points for that. So it's not a situation where you attack, it's a situation where you listen. So you ask questions about "Where do you think that comes from? Is it about how you grew up? Is it about experiences you've had?" I mean, helping that person unpack their boxes. If it's the other way around, like, "How do I feel safe to go into a situation and, you know, say something about my bias?" For me it took a lot of practice to be able to do that. So just as a public speaker who talks about diversity and inclusion and a lot of different situations and circumstances, I've been blessed to be in a lot of different places, to be able to have these conversations. I've gotten a lot better at being able to say the words. And they don't always come out right, but I think you get back up and you keep moving. If you need to apologize you do, and you keep moving. I mean, that's the only way we will have real action. So as a speaker I'm actually very vulnerable. I do that on purpose, because I want to connect on an emotional level. I want to be seen as a real person. These are real situations and issues that happen. I'm a real person with real feelings. Everybody else that you encounter who is an underrepresented group are not. Everybody has real feelings, and so I always want to connect on that emotional level. So, you know, I'm okay with being vulnerable using my real experiences, talking to people about what has happened to me, but not just what has happened to me, but how it made me feel. And then I think the rest of that though is that what do I do about it afterwards? Zach: What do you mean? Like, what do you mean when you say "What do I do about it afterwards?" What does that mean? Angela: Right. So I've had situations where I feel like I didn't get opportunities for jobs, that people didn't, you know, give me an opportunity to even get in the door and have a conversation with them. So what would I do about that? Well, I created bodies of work that people couldn't deny. So people will ask for recommendations, right? So in Austin, if somebody asked for a recommendation for an HR person, whether it's hiring or they need a connection or whatever, that's what I'm saying. I put in work to be on that list of people that somebody's gonna say, "You should talk to her." You know, for me, I think I'm to a place where I'm not gonna apply into a black hole anymore and hope that somebody's gonna give me an opportunity.Zach: Hm. You're gonna have a real conversation.Angela: Yes. I have created bodies of work that will get me in the room to have the right conversations.Zach: That's real talk.Angela: That's what I mean. What did I do afterwards? I created bodies of work afterwards.Zach: I love it. You know what, this is incredible. If you had three points of advice, right, for people of color who are at a job, they're seeking to, you know, create--they're looking for something else, but they feel stuck, and they don't understand what it really looks like for them to, like, create a new opportunity for themselves. It's easy to be like, "Hey, create your own opportunity," or da-da-da, but what does it look like to get beyond, like--'cause on its face, right, it seems kind of self-helpish. Like, "Just do it," but there's an actual science and process behind it. What advice would you give to the folks who are looking for, like, that practical advice on how they can navigate forward?Angela: The first thing I would say is dream big, so know where you want to go. So whatever your biggest, best, brightest dreams are, write them down. Make them real. That would be the first thing. So know where you're trying to go and make it big. [coin sfx] The second thing I would say is to connect with other people. So inside your organization, outside of your organization, people not in your department. Just connect with people. So you take the first step to get to know people, to hear their story, to make those emotional connections, so that when opportunities come up you're in the conversation. People need to know who you are. You know, I've been saying a lot lately, "It's not who you know, it's who knows you." [coin sfx] So how are you creating those opportunities where people know you? And then the third thing I would say is to take on any project that you have the opportunity to be on. So instead of whining or saying no or having an attitude or "I need more money," take on projects. Expand your skills, you know? Expand your skill set. Do different things. Have lots of different skills in your toolbox. [coin sfx] And those would be the three things that I would say that anybody can do to get to that next step.Zach: All right, y'all. Now, look, y'all heard Angela give y'all these points of wisdom. I even put the coin sound effect after the fact so y'all pay attention, so don't be--okay, you know, you're sitting around looking and trying to figure out what's going on, and I'm looking back at you like [haha sfx]. You need to pay attention, okay? Angela, she's giving you the wisdom, okay? Look, this has been a great conversation, Angela. Any shout-outs or parting words before we let you go?Angela: Absolutely. I have to shout out AHRMA, my board, all of our members and volunteers who have helped make this a very, very successful year, and like last time, Zach, I have to shout you out, because you are giving people opportunities to tell their story and to touch people and to help and support people, and I think that that is fantastic, so thank you so much for that. You are lifting up people, and I want you to know that. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, look here, thank you so much, Angela, and thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Y'all know where we at. Google us, okay? Living Corporate. We out here. We're really out here though, so, like, just check us out. Just Google Living Corporate. 'Til next time. Catch y'all later.

Zach sits down with Alicia Wade, a results-driven leader who works as a district manager at Banana Republic, to speak about black female leadership. Alicia shares her career journey with us and offers some advice for young black and brown women entering the professional space. She and Zach also discuss the concept of proactive feedback and how to effectively solicit it at work.Alicia is the CEO of The HR Source - check it out!Connect with Alicia on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, listen, you know what we do. We come to y'all and we bring to y'all, you know, some type of, you know, fire for your head top, right? We have some type of creative, executive leader, public servant, you know, public speaker, educator, entrepreneur, artist. You know, we have somebody, typically of the, you know, melanated variety, but sometimes not. Sometimes we've got some Winter Soldiers, or some Buckys, if you will. Some aspirational allies. But we're having real conversations that center black and brown experiences, and today is no different. Today we have the Alicia Wade. [air horns sfx] Now, listen here, for those who don't know, Alicia Wade actually was one of my first bosses. I'ma say bosses 'cause she is a boss, but she was one of the first people at my first job, when I worked at Target, that was in a leadership position that I had ever seen a black person in a leadership position--actually, the first time I had ever seen a black woman in a leadership position. But I don't want to go ahead and take away from her thunder, so I'ma go ahead and introduce her right now. Alicia, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Alicia: I am amazing. How are you doing today?Zach: I'm doing really, really well. Now, look, I gave a very, like, non-intro intro for you, so why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself?Alicia: Okay. Where do you want me to start? 1980? [laughs]Zach: You know what? 1980 would not be that bad. Was it the day time or was it late at night?Alicia: It was the morning in the spring.Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, for sure. [laughs] But no, I was--you know, I started--you know, to your point around starting as a boss, I really wasn't always a boss. Maybe bossy, but for sure. You know, I--kind of just giving a background of education and then really where I started my career, but, you know, I went to the University of Oklahoma, so I have to shout that out because, you know, the amazing Boomer Sooner, and I actually did--Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yeah, my undergrad degree there, political science, communication, and then went straight to grad school. So for me I share that background because I just really, you know, was one of those black girls that had a list. I knew what I was gonna be. If you asked me when I was growing up, I just knew I was gonna be a lawyer, and then all that changed when I went to school and I was like, "I don't really wanna go to school for, like, three more years and, like, read and do all of that." So I went to grad school at Baldwin-Wallace. It's actually a university now. It was a college then. It is in Berea, Ohio. Do you know where Berea is?Zach: No, where is that?Alicia: So it is actually, you know, the campgrounds for the Cleveland Browns. So it is right outside of Cleveland in Ohio.Zach: Oh, okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, so if you fly into Cleveland, you're technically in Berea. So I was there, I did my MBA there, and I think through that journey I really realized that I had just a knack for wanting to be on teams, obviously being a student athlete and an athlete my whole life. I think that's really where I kind of moved into HR. So starting to your point around being one of your first bosses, I actually started with Target in their training program and did several roles there. So I had an opportunity to be at the store level, district and regional level in HR, and then actually--I was actually there for about 9 years and then moved onto Ross Dress for Less in an HR capacity and did that and then moved over to operations and did that for probably--well, how long when I was in operations there? For two years. So the total time I was there for 5 years, if you're following, and then now--Zach: I am.Alicia: Yeah. And then now currently I'm actually with Gap, Inc., with the Banana Republic division ["ow" sfx] as a district manager. So yeah, that's kind of where I am now.Zach: So that's incredible, and it's interesting. So today we're really talking about black female leadership, right? So you talked about this path that you went on, and then there were points in time where you kind of had to pivot, right? 'Cause you had this very clear plan. Can we talk about, like, what was the cause--what was the cause, like, for you to say, "Look, I don't want to do this particularly." 'Cause you said that you were drawn to being on teams, but, you know, you can be a team and still be a lawyer. So, like, what was the moment that made you say, "You know what? I need to do something different."?Alicia: Well, you know what? I think what I realized in being on teams is that, you know, kind of--I mean, I probably wouldn't say I had the words for it then or the language or even had done the discovery for my own, like, strength and [?] of what that really was, but I did realize that I was really good at making other people better. So to your point, being a track athlete. It could be, like, individual, right? You could do your thing and then also [?] relays, but I felt like at that point I did know that I was really good around motivating other people and that I had an energy that other people fed off of, and I don't know if that was necessarily--would have been [conveyed?] for me. Some people would have through a book or through research. So I just felt like, you know, that leadership role, I was always pushed in those roles. So, like, even when I was at OU, I was a black student president. I was in leadership roles through my sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha. If you have sound effects, it would be a good time to add that right there.Zach: You want, like, a skee-wee or something? I don't have anything like that. Aren't y'all--wait, y'all be suing people. I'm not messing with you on this. [both laugh]Alicia: It could just be an amazing, like, "Alpha! Kappa! Alpha!" So anyway--[both laugh]--you heard that? Like, that little echo? It was amazing.Zach: I did.Alicia: Yes, and you had a picture in your mind of it being magnified, right? [Zach laughing] But we digress. So, you know, through those experiences in college, I think that's where that discovery came for me.Zach: Okay. Okay, cool. No, no, no. Listen, I'ma tell you something, 'cause y'all do be suing people, 'cause I saw somebody was making a joke--somebody made a joke about Kamala Harris and they put that AKA symbol on there, and it was on Twitter, and all the reactions on Twitter was [Law and Order sfx]. I said, "Wait a second. Relax, everybody." [Alicia laughing]Alicia: Well, you know what? Well, at least that sound effects knows--I think all of us through our childhood know that something epic was about to happen. So at the very least it's like, "Wait a minute," and we got their attention, right? And we're compliant. We're compliant, so we're good.Zach: [ow sfx, laughing] All right, so let's talk about this, because you're--when you talk about the roles that you've had and kind of going through the leader--you went through a training program, right? So you went through, like, an actual development program when you started at Target. Can we talk a little bit about what are some of the core things you learned through that program and what are some pieces that you feel like you picked up through that program that you wouldn't have otherwise?Alicia: Oh, my gosh. You know, it was so interesting. I talked--it's funny, you know, looking at what you do now, right, and where I am, and how that all started there, right? And I see that a lot. So I talk to a lot of peers that are in so many different capacities now in their career, and we all talk about the commonality with this, right? So I think for me--the good part is when you work for a company that has very structured development, or I should say an expectation that a supervisor shows up a certain way. Even if somebody doesn't have the capability or even the want to do it, it happens. So with that being said, I didn't always have supervisors that were able to show up in that way for me, but I would say the biggest thing I've learned, and it's a life lesson, is how I manage my expectations of other people, right? And I share that because I hear that a lot, especially as I even mentor, you know, younger, to your point, black and brown people today. If they're entering to the workforce and they have this expectation because of someone's title or their age or, you know, maybe their past experiences, and when they don't get that they are very discouraged. So that was a big lesson for me because I just came in and--you know, being from Houston, I think, you know, when you think about, like, a Southern culture, you really, you know, have a lot of respect, you know, for people. So I was like, "Yes, ma'am," "No, sir," and then when I realized people didn't show up very professional in some cases, I had to--to your point through this program--really position myself to not let that be a distraction, and I share that background because I think one of the biggest things that I had to learn, particularly around communication, is I showed up very rigid in a lot of those environments, whether it was, you know, day-to-day, whether it was in a mixer or things--and there was a lot of promotional opportunities that passed me because people just didn't know who I was, you know? It was just kind of like--you know, it was--I showed up in the workplace thinking, "You just don't share those kind of things," right? Like, they don't need to know what I do at home. And people wanted to, and it was important. So it's interesting, even as you do the intro today to say I was the first person that you saw, right? A person of color that related to you. That was a journey for me to get there, to realize that, and that was a big learning. And even today, you know? Like, obviously with Coco, you know, in the tennis championships now and seeing her and all this conversation about how animated she is, and, you know, just--it's so raw. Like, that is kind of how I showed up, you know what I mean? And being an athlete, being an aggressive, being this--and that didn't always translate into positive for me. [laughs]Zach: No, no, I hear you. But this is the thing about that though, right? I think that we've also been--so I'ma speak for myself, and I've also seen, like, my peers, is black folks, you know, it's--there's a certain level of guardedness that we're taught to have just because, like, you know, "Look, there's only a few of us. Don't mess anything up. Don't put yourself out there too far." And I also think culturally we just have this thing around, like, sharing our personal business in ways that, like--there are things we just don't talk about at work, you know what I'm saying? And so there's this--but to your point though, there's this challenge of, like, "Okay, well, what's the line? How vulnerable can you make yourself?" Because people aren't gonna want to promote or work with somebody that they don't know. Like, most people anyway. I don't--I don't care. Listen, I just want to do the job. It's fine. But I'm learning, and I've learned, that, you know, people just feel more comfortable if they know you a little bit. And so my question is how did you create that cocktail for yourself? Like, how did you come into--you know, what is it that I really want to share? What will I still kind of hold back? Like, how did you kind of give yourself permission to be a bit more vulnerable at your job?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. So I can think of a couple of things. So I can think of an experience where I was actually interviewing, and I was pregnant at the time, and we were doing, like, a Skype, like, interview, because, you know, the actual people that were doing the mock interviews were in other locations, and it was an African-American female. She was in a supervisor position. And we're going through, and I'm thinking--and I share this story often--like, you know, I'm prepared. I've got all my notes. And the message I was trying to convey was someone who was reliable, right, and qualified. So I had all of that to the--you know, bringing that to the table, and I just remember her, like, cutting me off mid-sentence. Like, ugh. Who are you? I'm not feeling you right now, and you need to get it together. And, like, inside--you know, like, we all--we've done so much, particularly as African-American females, to pull it all together and present this package, and when someone is unraveling that it's like, "Wait a minute," right? And that's what happened in that moment for me. But to your point around creating that cocktail, that, like, having her say it's okay and seeing her show up as herself and still be professional, you know, and great at her job, like it wasn't this caricature, right? She was herself. She was professional. She was someone I looked up to, and she was still herself. She didn't become anybody else. It helped give me that courage. But I think for me, like, the steps towards that was me finding things that I was okay to share, right? Like, so to kind of, like, put a little, like, pinky toe in the water. So it's like, "Okay, I like to work out," you know? "So let me talk about that, and then maybe I'll build a connection," and then I just continued to build upon that, about things that, you know, I feel comfortable with, but then I think I learned in that is that that's what motivates people. And then I thought about--I made it personal. Like, I want to know what's important to my boss, right? Like, I want to know them as a person, and then when I started to meet with people and I started to, you know, move up in my career in multi-unit positions and interacted, to your point, at so many different levels with people, I was able to meet people at their level and then also connect at that level.Zach: So then what advice would you have, right, for the young black woman, young brown woman, coming into the professional space who does have it all together? 'Cause you're absolutely right, like, there is--and I believe this translates to black men as well. Like, you know, we try to come with, like, "Look, I got this, I got this. I'm tight. Like, I've got all of these different things. If they ask me this, I'ma say that. If they ask me this, I'ma say that." When you don't have someone who is gonna kind of give you the assurance that it's okay to be yourself and who isn't maybe, you know, guiding you along, what advice would you give to someone who is trying to break out of their shell a little bit?Alicia: Yeah. You know what? I would share--I guess this is where, like, the academic in me comes out, because I also teach at the University of Houston. So it's a great opportunity [ow sfx] as an adjunct professor--aye, let's go. I [?] from OU to our great Cougars here. Zach: To UH. Uh.Alicia: Yes, there we go. H-Town in the house. [both laugh] But one of the things that I share there with the students all of the time is around, like, the dialogue, right? And you have internal dialogue in yourself that you're having, and you can get distracted about maybe, you know, cues that you're not getting from people, right? So even in this conversation, there's things that you're doing that are affirming me that we're on track, right? And vice versa, and sometimes we don't get that, not because we're wrong--it's because you may be the first person that this, you know, particular person has interacted with like you, if that makes sense, right? So just because you may be sharing, right, about whatever that may be that's very personal or maybe you think is cultural and they're looking at you a certain way, that doesn't mean that that's wrong, right? Or that you shouldn't share it. It just may be a new experience, and you can't let those external things go along. Then it starts to spiral and you're not showing up as your authentic self. So I think you have to get to a place where "Hey, this is who I am," you know? And continue to show up that way, because any time I feel like you're--you feel like you are a fraud or you are trying to act like other people, you're never gonna come across as someone that other people want to be around anyway - in my opinion. So that would be my advice.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. Now, you know, you talked a little bit about your sorority, but, you know, everybody, Alicia, is not blessed to don the pink and green and wear the pearls and toss the [?] hair, right? Everybody don't have a community that they come into. So for the folks that are kind of doing [?], what does it look like--what would you suggest that they do to kind of build those networks in those kind of, like, trusted spaces?Alicia: Absolutely, and I think that is definitely something along the journey that I had to learn, even though I was in those environments, because no one in my family really has worked--like, most of--particularly the women are in education, right, and I was kind of brought up that if you weren't a teacher or a nurse, what do you do? Right? So I totally can relate to someone who maybe is not even able to go home or, especially as a new professional, being able to talk to your parents about your experiences, but I would say you have to be very intentional around finding--and not necessarily somebody that looks like you, but maybe they are--whether it's a position or they have the characteristics that you want to possess, that could be a star for you. I think the other piece is maybe somebody that's maybe struggling in the same area as you are, right? So let's say you see someone that is in a position that you want to be in, and let's say communication is your opportunity--it's, like, you're not necessarily the most articulate person, right, but you aspire to do, but you see that person is maybe in a certain role, connecting with them to ask, like, how did they work around that, right? And maybe you don't feel comfortable going straight to them. Maybe you're in an environment that that's not appropriate and you don't have that access to that person, but what events can you go to, right? Like, can you be intentional to say, "Hey, my work schedule doesn't necessarily afford me to do A, B, and C, but there is this networking opportunity at this time through my church," right? Look around you, and I think if you approach it, your development or an area of growth around the abundance as opposed to the limitations, you will find somebody that is gonna be willing to help you or even--they may not even realize they're helping you and you know you're going with that very intentional question and they can answer it for you and you get that nugget, right? [ow sfx] And then you just start believing it. Yes.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And you know what? I just--I appreciate this because, you know, it's about being resourceful, right? Like, you've got to reach out and use and just think beyond, you know, your initial, you know, four corners or whatever and just reach out a bit, because there are resources available. You've got Google, which is, like, this huge thing where you can, like, type in things into this, like, little square, and then when you press Enter then a bunch of things pop up. You know, there's just all types of resources out there, so you gotta get busy. You gotta get out there.Alicia: Right. But I think to your exact question, even though we have so much information, people are not necessarily more informed per se about specific things when it comes to their career, and I challenge people, particularly to your point minorities a lot and people in my circle where, you know what, their Instagram is popping, their Facebook, like, you have all the great pictures, angles, but then you don't have a LinkedIn account or you don't have an updated resume or you don't have a CV. So it's like you've invested all of this time of creating and crafting this image but not necessarily the same for your professional, right?Zach: Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] What you talking about? You're dropping these bombs over here talking about--so wait a second though, and I know you're church, so you're over here talking about "so you've crafted this image."Alicia: Yes, Jesus. We've got one of them anointed words right there, right? Yes, hallelujah. Zach: "But it's not real!" Then part of me, I was like ["and i oop" sfx]. You know what I'm saying? I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's real though. Alicia: Yes, wave your hands in there.Zach: No, that's true though.Alicia: Yes, it is, and it's just--recently I had a mentee that I was talking to, and she was preparing for an interview, but she'd post every day on, like, her Insta story, right? Like, videos. She looks beautiful in these videos. And I said, "Well, why don't you use something you do every day?" Like, you want to convey this message. Like, have you ever looked at yourself when you're trying to talk about your career? And she's like, "I never thought about that," and I said, "Well, you clearly like looking at yourself, right? So why don't you start there?" Like, it is around you. So that's what I would say. I think it's kind of step back, realize what you do have, and just start somewhere small, right? Like, it doesn't have to be a program that costs thousands of dollars. It doesn't have to be dropping the name of, you know, this person is my mentor or, you know, they have this title. It really may be the secretary in, you know, your particular office that is someone that is warm, that may be older than you that can give you some advice around navigating that environment that you can learn from at the level you're at right now.Zach: No, I love that. 100%. And I'm curious, you know, we talked a little bit about--again, we started off talking about leadership, and we talked about you coming into yourself. So that was self-management. Let's talk about what does it look like for you to manage others. Particularly what I'd like to talk about is, like, the art of influence, as well as really giving effective feedback. So you and I both--well, so you started at Target, I also started at Target, and I think a large part of the element of Target, the culture at the time was really about, like, you know, positive feedback, public praise, and I've seen that you've carried that forward in your positions with Gap, specifically Banana Republic, and how you give feedback. So can we talk a little bit about that and, like, your theory or your philosophy around feedback and, like, your practices on how you give it to your team?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. You know, I think feedback is something that I value, and I think it starts--you know, my brother and I talk about this all the time because he plays sports, actually football, and is currently still in the field with athletics, and we talk about how that shows up in the workplace of people that are used to being coached, right? Like, you're used to looking at a video and a group of people sitting around critiquing it, right? And really understanding that there's a moment that you have to capture right now. Like, you don't have another day or a week to wait. So I think that kind of shaped my philosophy per se, if there is one, is that you have to [?] find and be aware as a boss, right, or a manager of those coachable moments and not wait. You know, I think we've all been in situations where somebody sat us down and they had a list, and you think, like, "Wow." You know, like, all of these things that they're telling you that you need to get better at, or examples, and you're sitting there, and at a point you just look around like, "Wow, why didn't they tell me then?" Like, "I had no clue," right? So I think that's what I never want to be as a supervisor. I never want somebody to be shocked, right? And I also want them to know, like, "I'm giving you this feedback because I believe you can improve," right? 'Cause I think a lot of times, particularly--if I bring this to your point of our audience here of, like, black and brown people, particularly for black women, when I mentor them there's a lot of times the absence of feedback means that there's an absence of a problem. "Oh. Well, nobody told me that." It's like, "That does not mean that you didn't need to get better." And I think--I share that because the next part of it is, even in my self-journey and things like that or my own development, there's a lot of times I would get feedback and I would want to make it about the other person. Like, "Well, if they just got to know me, then they would know that's not really how I am." Like, "I'm not really like that," right? Or "If they gave me a chance to do it, then they would just know," opposed to thinking, "No, we're talking about this specific instance."Zach: Right now.Alicia: "Right now. Can you understand how you're showing up, how it could be--just the possibility of how it could be perceived this way?" And in that space, what can you control and move forward with? So I think with my team, I try to make sure that I create that--like, we create that as an agreed-upon communication from the beginning, right? Like, so they're not shocked, 'cause I don't want to assume that you've gotten this before, right? And I want you to also understand my intent. So we talked about in the beginning, like, "Hey, here's how I communicate. Here's what I do, and let me know if that works for you," and a lot of times I found that people don't really know how they like to get feedback until they get it. [laughs] 'Cause it's like, "Actually, I don't really want--" You know, they think that they don't like it or it's gonna be odd or it's, like, gonna be breaking them down, and then once they realize, like, this is gonna be a feedback-rich environment, then I think people buy in, but I also feel like it's a great way--I'm in a, you know, environment particularly in retail that moves very fast, right? And it is very results-driven. So if you are in an environment where productivity or--it's high-functioning, then I think it's very rewarding. I am aware that there are environments, right, like, when I go into, like, an educational space, where it's not as frequent, right? And you don't have--it's like an event when you get feedback. I think you really have to meet the person where they are, and I think you have to make sure that they understand where it's coming from, and that's my thoughts about it. Zach: No, I love that. And, you know, this is the thing, because--you know, background and upbringing is all very important, because I would just--for me, it was primarily my mom and I growing up, and my mom would just tell me all of the time, like, you know, "Hey, you need to do this better. You need to change da-da-da-da." Like, "You need to clean it up, boy. You're looking crazy out here." So it's not--it wasn't odd to me to get, like, direct feedback at work. I think it was reinforced by Target too 'cause Target was such a feedback--and I think retail is like that in general, as an industry, right? Because, like you said, it's results-driven, it's very action-oriented, and it's execution-focused and execution-oriented that you're gonna have to get this feedback 'cause we gotta get this stuff done, and so what has been a challenge for me though, Alicia, has been, like, transitioning outside of retail and just realizing, like, the--I don't know, like, just the fragility of folks. So, like, have you ever had a situation as a black person, as a black woman, giving feedback to a non-black person, and they, like, crumble like you've just destroyed them?Alicia: I have, yeah.Zach: Okay. Can we talk about it?Alicia: Yeah. You know, I can think of several. You know, there's one that's coming up, like, top of mind, but I probably would say it's pretty common, and this is how it happened. And to your point, you know, the person reacted very emotionally, and in that moment I had to pause and ask, like, "What are these tears about right now? Because what I'm saying shouldn't be causing tears," right? Like, I'm sharing an observation about something we already have--you know, sometimes you may have something that's very specific, right, that you can measure it, but I also find, particularly in being in the HR space, right, that it's very hard to coach people or for people to give feedback on something they can't measure. So to your point, you start having this very what feels like abstract conversation, like "What are we really talking about?" And then the person can become defensive if you don't have measurables to say, "Hey, look. See, this is what I mean." And in that particular conversation, that's what the person was--I would use the word argued. Maybe argued is not the right word, but they were, you know, disagreeing, right? Like, "Well, I don't see it that way," and I think we had to disagree in that space of "It is okay for you not to agree. However, what we have to agree upon is that you do have to value my opinion as your supervisor," right? "And let's also agree that we don't have to." Right? Like, we can be in this space and see this totally different--Zach: And it still be okay.Alicia: And it still be okay, you know? And I'm not asking you to change your perspective. I'm just putting you on notice, right, like, that this is the way that it looks to me and this is how I would like us to move forward, and in this particular conversation, the person was not ready to talk about the path forward. They weren't, because they were still stuck and just kind of thinking around, and I think you have to know, like, not to overbear--you know what I mean? Like, be overbearing.Zach: Yeah, overwhelming.Alicia: Yeah, overwhelming, 'cause this may be truly--regardless of their age, regardless of the position that they're in, this may be the first time that they've heard this, and you have to respect that, right? So to your point, you've grown up being told, like, "You're not all that. Okay, no, you need to go change," or, like, "Ugh," and that's not something that's crumbling for you, right? But someone that's never gotten honest feedback from someone that loves them, you don't know what that background is in the workplace, right? So somebody shows--Zach: That's real.Alicia: You know, somebody shows up, and then once again going back to that us being comfortable, right, and us being--like, you can't take that as that you did something wrong, because now you can retreat and not be operating in a space that you need to. So yeah, I've absolutely had that, and, you know, what I've done for me is that follow-up is really important. So comment back, like, "Let's agree upon a time on when it'll be good to revisit this," 'cause I find a lot of times for certain people avoidance is a tactic that they use, right, when it comes to conflict, and that's the most ineffective thing that you can do, right? Like, time does not cure all, right? In fact, it makes it worse, because we had this conversation 6 months ago and we still said nothing, right? Or that was last year during your annual review that we talked about it, or as a peer we worked on this project together, but that was--we only do that once a quarter, right? And I didn't really like working with you, and you had an attitude, or you were late, or I didn't really like the quality of your work, but we never really got to the root cause for us to move forward. So I come back to "Okay, you know, last time we spoke this is where we landed. How are you feeling today?" You know? And not let people off the hook with making it about you.Zach: You know, that's just a really good point. That last part is huge, because it is easy for me--'cause I'm a bit of a narcissist, so--[both laugh] Alicia: It's something you--right, but you can internalize it, right? Zach: Right, absolutely. Like, and so it's like, "Okay, well, then, clearly this is something I did wrong. Okay, how can I improve?" And, like, you know, a part of you thinks, like, "Oh, well, this is me being accountable." It's like, "Yeah, but you're being accountable at a toxic--at a point that's not even accurate or helpful," because you're centering yourself and internalizing to the point that we're not actually getting to a solution, you know what I mean?Alicia: Yeah. But I think too to your point around accountability, and this is something that I've, you know, from a learning--you know, to your question initially, that's an area where, like, accountability overused has gotten in the way, right, for me of, like, working too much or, you know, it could come across as aggressive, or--you know, those things, and you're really overly accountable, and I think that's where understanding what accountability and responsibility looks like, right? So you may be in that environment. You're accountable for whatever that project, and that's why you're giving this feedback, but that person is responsible as well, you know, to show up a certain way or deliver in those areas, and how do you balance that, you know, so it doesn't--like, obviously you gotta work on, maybe in that space, what you need to do, but there's also something that they needed to work on, and we can't be distracted about how it came across to them, per se.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and you're right, like, we do overuse that word, and, you know, I think--again, like, it's an old phrase, but, like, accountability is a two-way street. Like, it's not--because if one person is always accountable and the other person is never accountable, then that's--that's toxic. Like, that doesn't make sense.Alicia: Yes, and I think if you become--like, especially when we think about giving feedback, right, and we're thinking about whether that's from a generational or we think about from a cultural standpoint, we have to make sure that that's a two-way street, and if you're the only person trying to work through this relationship, then you really aren't growing in how to manage and work with people that don't look like you.Zach: You know, I just--[straight up sfx] I mean, you're right. What can I say?Alicia: Hol' up! [both laugh]Zach: Man. Okay, so this has been a great conversation. So, you know, there are times for me where--you talked earlier about, like, people giving you feedback and, like, sitting you down with a laundry list of feedback. We also just talked about accountability and responsibility. For me, I really enjoy the idea of soliciting feedback, because I'm trying to--like, you know, in the idea of you trying to sit me down and have some laundry list of stuff, I'm just over here like ["stupid, i'm not gonna let you get the chance" sfx] You know what I'm saying? I'm just trying to, like, make sure I'm proactive, okay? Alicia: [both laughing] Right, right. Like it's above me now, right?Zach: Listen. Okay, so my question to you is what are your thoughts on proactive feedback? And what are ways that you solicit feedback from your team and from your leadership?Alicia: Yeah. So this is--oh, my gosh, this is definitely a gem for me when I think about just development for myself. I think I've been in situations where I've had supervisors that weren't able to give me feedback, right, because I was meeting goals, I was doing a really good job, and it was meeting their expectations, right? So you go and you ask and you solicit and it's like, "Oh, it's great." Like, "There's nothing you can do better," and that's never worked for me, you know? And maybe because the way that I'm wired, you know? Like, I really want to even get feedback around, like, what did you like? Like, what am I doing well so I can know what to repeat, right? Or even how I got the result, and I find often that people may achieve a goal, right, or whatever it may be, and it's kind of like, "Okay, we're so excited," but they cannot articulate how, right? And for me I feel like that's kind of--there's a silver bullet or a magic sauce, a cocktail, right, that you're creating on how to repeat success. You have to know what you did, right? Because it may be a different environment. So for me, that's really important for personal feedback for me, whether it be from a supervisor, a peer, or even my direct reports. Like, if we feel like we're in a good space, right--and I would start with direct reports--that I manage, I want to know what you like, right? So if you feel like, "Hey, communication is great," I want them to be very specific, but that's just how I'm wired, right? Like, I want to know - do you prefer this type of communication? Do you prefer this type of recognition? Okay, when we're working on a project, what level of autonomy do you like? So I ask, you know? I think there's some people that it's really easy for them and those that aren't, so I'll set it up. If we're gonna have, for instance, a touch-base, or we know we're gonna have a formal sitting down, [I] say, "Hey, when we connect, I want to give some feedback on how that went," and I'll put it out there, right, whether that's in a conversation or even written, for them to prepare their thoughts. So that's something that's worked for me. I think with peers, I have something that's helped me, particularly around communication and working on how I come across, 'cause that was something early in my career and I think still today. Like, my non-verbals. You know, like, that face? Like, okay. Like, having somebody in the room, you know, or your tone to say, "Okay, hey, you know, yeah, you did come across this way." I've always tried to solicit people that can help me in that area, and if they aren't there someone that I've seen that is an expert in the area or better than me. I go to them to say, "Hey, do you mind if I reach out to you, like, once a month just to get your ideas? It doesn't have to be long. Would it be okay if I maybe text you or shoot this over to you and you give me some feedback?" That's really helped also break down, you know, some barriers where--I don't want to say competition per se, right, but it's helped people also give [me] more feedback that maybe they wouldn't before, right? Because I've already put out there, "Hey, I'm trying to get better here. You've already got this locked down. I'm trying to learn. Do you mind if I just--you know, if I send this to you and ask questions?" Most people are gonna be very open. So that's something that I do a lot, and that's how I would say I solicit feedback or try to.Zach: No, that's--no, no, no, that's great, and I think, again, to your point around, like, "Well, no one told me anything so it must be fine," it's like the only time that I--the only time I take that attitude where "nobody told me anything, it must be fine" is if I ask you for feedback and you say, "I don't have any feedback," and then you come back later with something, then I'm like, "Hey, wait a second. You big buggin' now."Alicia: And you know what? Here's one thing. And, you know, I think we learn a lot from also bad supervisors or people we didn't like working for, and that was one. I had a supervisor that comes to mind, and that's--this is why I would say I take the approach now, because she didn't necessarily know what she wanted things to look like, but she did--she was very good at critiquing what you put forward, and that was SO demotivating for me. In fact, it was--like, it was emotional, you know what I mean? Like, I would just be, like, hurt by it, because it was like--to your point--I went to you, asked you for feedback--"Hey, here's my plan. This is what I'm thinking. This is the approach I want to take." And they would be like, "Oh, yeah. Check, check. Great." And then I [?]--you know, I felt [I?] was taking huge leaps or a risk in some cases, right, and we agreed upon this is what we were gonna do going forward, and then she would come back if maybe there were other partners that felt a certain way or it didn't resonate with them or she saw it and then would, like, kind of break me down, you know what I mean? That list would come out of "Okay, well, you could've did this, and you could've did that," and in that--at that time, I shut down. You know? So it became--I won't say angry, but the hurt became--I just took a list, and then I thought, "I'm never gonna do that again," and that didn't help anybody, particularly me. So I think that's when I--to your point, trying to get ahead of it now, like, not letting somebody that says, "Oh, I don't have anything to share," get in the way--get in the way of me moving forward.Zach: No, you're 100% right, and I think--so it's both and, right? It's you were looking for the feedback. You were soliciting it, and then you--not using that as a blocker, right? No matter what you get. So if you don't get anything, don't use it as a blocker. If you get something that doesn't really align with what you think it is, then don't use it as a blocker either. Just make sure that it's something that you're taking the time to do, but it shouldn't impede you from moving forward towards whatever goals that you have. I think--like, a mentor that I have who--she's told me this a few different times. Shout-out to you, Liz. I see you. What's up?Alicia: Hey.Zach: Hey. Come on. So Liz was like "Look--" And Liz is a mentor of mine. She's a great friend, and she was also on the show a few episodes back, actually during Pride Month, but anyway, so look. Liz said--she said, "Look, Zach, you know, the beauty of feedback is you don't have to agree with it. You don't have to take all of it." Alicia: [laughs] Right.Zach: She was like, "You know, Zach, I think you're burdening yourself with every time someone gives you feedback, you take that as, like, a mandate that you need to change something." Like, that's not--that's not what feedback is. Feedback is something for you to consider. So the best thing you can say to someone giving you feedback? "Hey, thank you for your feedback." That's it. [laughs] That's it.Alicia: For sure, and that's so important to your point. It's like, there's--if you can compartmentalize things, right, then you can do something with it later, because that feedback may be relevant at another time, and then you can see it, right? When it shows up again, but today I don't necessarily have to create a plan based on what you said. I can just put there and say, "Oh, okay. That's Zach's feedback that he gave me today. Okay. All right. Hm. I don't necessarily see it, but thank you." And it stays right there. Yeah, I think that's awesome.Zach: And that's it. But I think some of the challenge when it comes to just, like, bias in the workplace, and, like, there's also, like, this underlying and sometimes overlying expectation that women, particularly black women, are just, like, the workhorses of whatever. So, you know, sometimes I've been told--you tell me if I'm right or wrong, but, like, sometimes people give you feedback with the expectation that you're just gonna do what they say, and it's like... that's not necessarily the case. Like, I'm just gonna take this feedback, and I will--I will make a determination as to how, or if, I implement it into what I'm doing.Alicia: Yes, for sure. I think--no, I agree, I think that is true for me and what I've seen. And even more, to take it a step further--'cause I know we've talked through a lot of tips on this podcast around, you know, how--you know, interviewing tips and moving forward, right? I see this a lot in interviewing people and them not being able to explain why they haven't moved forward, right? They feel like it's someone else's--you know, someone else's... I don't know even the word. Like, it's their responsibility or their fault. We'll use the word fault, right? Of "Okay, I'm here," and they can't say why, and to me it's like, "Okay, you've never gotten any feedback or no one's ever told you or you're not able to look at this job or see someone in that role and see what they do better than you and what--maybe even the one thing they do better than you--and what's held you back?" And that's the approach I take for feedback. Like, if you can think about it in that way opposed to, to your point, something that you have to change or take on or feel like you've got to bow down or become someone different, but really as a lens for you to see things that you may not be seeing. So that's what I see often, particularly for black women.Zach: Man, this has been great. Alicia, before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Alicia: Shout--I mean, when you say let you go, I feel like we've got to queue that Beyonce, and that has to be in the background that we have here, but--Zach: Again, I don't know what you don't understand about [Law and Order sfx]. We can't do that. I don't own Roc-a-Fella or whoever she--or whatever she signed that thing through, or House of Dereon, LLC. I don't know. Listen, we're gonna have that nice, you know what I'm saying, copyright-free jazz music that you hear in the background. Trying to get us in trouble. We already said AKA a few times. They're gonna be knocking on my door. Now you're talking about--Alicia: No, they're not. They're gonna be looking at this. We're gonna be--they're gonna be helping with [?] mass media, passing it out here. But no, seriously--Zach: Come on, now.Alicia: You know what I mean? But no, seriously, I want to--you know, if there's a recognition, I want to recognize you, because I think, you know, creating this space, A. to have conversation, is one thing, right? But I think you being very intentional around making sure that the conversation has different perspectives, whether that be from industry, you know, whatever, right? I think that this is just very phenomenal, and I've seen, like I've said, from the beginning when you first sent out this podcast to where you are now. So I just want to, you know, tip my hat to you, brother, and really seeing how you brought also other people in to expand--it's just fantastic. While keeping your full-time job. So round of applause. I'm super excited and just happy to be a part [kids cheering sfx]--yes. So anything, you know, that we can do in the future, any way I can continue to add to the conversation, would be the shout-out. So thank you as well. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, you've got me blushing. I'm turning purple. I appreciate this. And you know what? Shout-out to you, okay? 'Cause, like I said, you were one of the first people, and, you know, the thing about it--see, the thing about Alicia--now, look, I know we have this natural hair movement now and everything. Let me tell you something. Back in, like, 2011, I walked into Target doing my thing, Alicia came through edges LAID, okay?Alicia: All the time.Zach: Okay? Pearls. Pearls thick, y'all. Don't play. And she had heels on, and she was moving. She was working the floor. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is incredible." So shout-out to Alicia and your whole brand, everything that you do, everything that you've done. Shout-out to of course, you know what I'm saying, 1906, you know what I'm saying? I got y'all. Pink and green. I respect y'all. Please do not come for my neck. Please. I appreciate y'all. I did not put no logos on this stuff. Alicia: There will be a logo though, in the show notes.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Okay, yes, so we will put a logo in the show notes. It will show all of the legal information and that we are not indemnified by anything--[both laugh]Alicia: You are so silly, for sure.Zach: [laughs] Okay, but look, final air horns for you--[air horns sfx]--and you know what? This has been it, y'all. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Of course this has been Zach. You've been listening to Alicia Wade. Now, look, I usually say all of the little Twitter stuff, but look, we brolic now, okay? So I don't have to say "follow us on this." Just Google Living Corporate, okay? Google me. What was that--oh, yeah, Teyana Taylor I think made that song called Google Me. But no, for real, shout-out to Teyana Taylor too, but look, Google me. Just Google Living Corporate. Living--L-I-V-I-N-G--Corporate. I'm not gonna spell out corporate. I don't have the time. But check us out. We're everywhere. Appreciate y'all. We'll talk to y'all soon. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with Porter Braswell, co-founder and CEO of Jopwell, to learn more about the company and to hear his story behind its creation. Jopwell is the leading career advancement platform for Black, Latinx, and Native American students and professionals - check them out! Porter shares a bit about the work Jopwell is doing to encourage inclusive cultures within institutions that black and brown folks are trying to enter and a whole lot more.Connect with Porter on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter!Check out his book, Let Them See You: The Guide for Leveraging Your Diversity at Work, on Amazon!Learn more about Jopwell at their website, and connect with them on social media! LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, FacebookTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? And welcome to Living Corporate. You know what we are. We're talking about real talk in a corporate world. Now, look, I come on here, and I typically will say "What's up, y'all?" But to be honest with y'all I'm a little nervous, 'cause, you know, every time we come at y'all we're coming to you with a really great guest, but this guest is a little bit--you know what? Let me not do that, 'cause we've had a lot of really great guests, right? Like, we've had J. Prince. We've had Chris Moreland. We've had Jennifer Brown. We've had DeRay Mckesson. You know, we've had some big names. We've had Chilla Jones, the battle rapper. We've had people, right? We've had CEOs, executives. We've had Accenture - we spotlighted them a couple months ago. So okay, let me not get too starstruck, but a personal hero of mine, somebody I've been admiring from afar, we have Porter Braswell on the show today. Yo. Listen, if you don't know about Porter Braswell, Porter Braswell is a Yale graduate and former Goldman Sachs associate who co-founded Jopwell.com, the leading career advancement platform for black, Latinx, and Native American students and professionals. Braswell frequently speaks about diversity in the workplace with Jopwell's corporate clients. He's been profiled in Fast Company, Forbes, TechCrunch, Vanity Fair, and Ad Week, and has received numerous rewards and recognitions, such as LinkedIn's Next Wave, Top Professionals 35 and Under, Ink Magazine's 30 Under 30, Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People in Business, Vanity Fair's--look, I'm getting loud, just getting excited, talking about all of this dude's accolades, but I'm really excited to have him on the show, and so with us--we have him, man. Porter, what's going on? How are you doing, man?Porter: [laughs] That's a very generous introduction. I appreciate it.Zach: Well, look, it's great to have you on the show, man. Look, not to put too much sauce on it, but, you know, you're the man, right? You graduated from Yale. You know, you hooped all four years. Now, I have a question for you, 'cause I looked all around--were you, like--you look like a two-guard. What was your position?Porter: [laughs] I was a point guard. Definitely the point guard.Zach: Okay. Now, look, were you the--now, let me ask you this, were you the POINT guard, or were you, like--like, what style? Are you a facilitator? Or are you more like the--or are you kind of like a Russell Westbrook type where you're just out there?Porter: Well, you know what? So I was a scoring guard, and if I could go back in time I would've made me way more of a facilitator, recognizing that, you know, almost 6'1", I'm not gonna go to the league as a scoring guard, and so--I feel like nowadays people draw their inspiration from, like, a Steph or whatever, but when I was growing up it was Allen Iverson and, like, you scored as a point guard. And you still score as a guard now of course, but--Zach: But it's different though.Porter: Yeah. You know, like, a step-back three-point shooter. Like, you can get away with that now. When I was playing, you had to go to the hoop and finish. Zach: Yeah. No, you're absolutely right.Porter: Yeah. I would've [?] my game after other people, [laughs] but it worked outZach: [laughs] Well, look, let's talk about this, right? So, like, you know, what point did you realize that diversity, inclusion and equity was, like, important enough to transfer and transition from Goldman Sachs to create Jopwell? Like, was there a specific moment that rung out to you? Like, what did that look like?Porter: Yeah. So basically when I was--when I was working at Goldman, at the time I was there for about three years, and I was a product of the diversity recruiting efforts starting back in high school. In high school I spent two summers interning at Morgan Stanley via diversity recruiting initiatives, and then at Yale I spent three summers interning at Goldman Sachs, all via diversity initiatives, and so my whole life, up until that point in time, was about diversity and inclusion, and that's where I found my opportunities. And buying and selling currencies, while fulfilling, it wasn't the fulfillment I was looking for. I wanted to do something that I felt was more impactful, something that I felt I was uniquely qualified to do and something that was solving, like, a real pain point--solving a real challenge that people or companies were facing. And so with those ingredients, I took a step back and recognized that diversity recruiting and inclusion was a massive pain point for corporate America. It was something I was uniquely qualified to solve, and I was incredibly passionate about it, and so I decided that my life's focus was gonna be on building more diverse and inclusive organizations and doing it through a tech company - that became Jopwell, and I think that's really important because we took a traditional non-profit model but made it into a for-profit tech thing because we're solving real pain points of companies, and we wanted to basically build a competitive atmosphere, like any other tech company, where you're disrupting an industry and you want to win at it. And so we took that approach, and, you know, I'm very thankful that my life's work and my passion and my actual day-to-day job all align with each other.Zach: ["ow" sfx] Man, I'm really thankful for it too, right? Like I said--I told you, like, right before we got on, like, it's been incredible because Jopwell hasn't really been around that long, right? Like, y'all launched in 2014, right? But at the same time, like, it was so disruptive, right? Like, it was, like, so--I remember when Jopwell came around, and I just remember, like, literally--three years ago even--I was just looking around and I was like, "What is this?" And I signed up. I'm in the Well, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm engaged, right? But you're right, the platform itself doesn't come across--and I think it's interesting balance, right? Because y'all are providing, like, a profit service, but it doesn't come across like y'all are--what's the word? Like, bartering in people, right? Like, you're actually building community while connecting these folks to, like, opportunities. Like, that's really cool to me.Porter: So the foundational thing of what we do is that we build community, and we can only build community if we are very authentic and understanding of the community, which we are given I'm from the community. Zach: Right.Porter: And that is a hard thing to do, and if you can build the trust of a community, then you can represent brands behind it. And so Jopwell has been able to carve out this area where brands recognize they need to rely on us to authentically connect and engage with this audience that we are a part of, and in doing so we want to deliver the most incredible experience and opportunities for the community. So as long as we keep the community at the center of what we do, we'll be fine as a business, but we're not transactional. We don't think of the community in that way. Like, again, we are from and a part of the community, so we know the pain points, and so we've just--we took a different approach, you know? I think that's the simplest way to describe it. We took a different approach. We took a step back. I'm not from a recruiting background, and I think that helped me, because we looked at this problem in a way in which others didn't look at it before.Zach: Man. You know what? It's 100%, 'cause it's interesting because I don't think--it's easy to, like, understate that when you come up in, like, these corporatized recruiting platforms, it just--it naturally skews your perspective and creates blind spots for you. It doesn't matter what your particular--I mean, your ethnicity and gender plays a part in that, but I'm just talking about the culture of recruiting is often times so regimented that it creates a variety of blind points that you're not necessarily even thinking about--like, recruitment experience--as much. Like, you're thinking about it from a "check the box" perspective, but there's that personal touch that rarely is really considered. And so 100%. I definitely agree that you not having that formal recruiting background gives you a bit more insight. Porter, it also reminds me that, like, the people who are often best suited to solve for inclusion efforts for black and brown people are often black and brown people, right? Like, you had--you were a hooper at Yale. You then were a Goldman Sachs employee and a Rising Star, and then you still, because of your experiences and your insights and your passions, were able to shape that into having really unique insights, enough that you were able to create a whole platform from that. Do you know what I mean?Porter: Yeah. Well, I think that everyone has a unique story, and everybody has unique contexts in which they come to the table with, and it's a responsibility of diverse individuals to expose others to the different contexts. Now, for me, that allowed myself to build the business, but that doesn't have to manifest itself in a business. Like, leveraging your diversity as an asset, you could just expose people to a different way of thinking, which helps any organization, which is the power of diversity of course. So leveraging your diversity doesn't have to lead to a business, but leveraging your diversity can lead to disruption and change, and that is a responsibility that diverse individuals have, and for me I felt that responsibility to build this platform.Zach: So, you know, you talked about this, and it's a really good segue--you know, Porter, it's almost like you're media-trained. It's almost like you do this often, you know? But you talked about leveraging your diversity. That reminds me really of your latest book, "Let Them See You: The Guide for Leveraging Your Diversity at Work." It was just published. And this book carries a theme of personal responsibility, and of course that's critical, right? So, like, talking about how you leverage your diversity to create, to your point, disruption, change, within whatever context that you're in, but with that in mind, can we also talk about the work that you've done personally, and the work Jopwell is doing, to encourage inclusive cultures within these institutions that black and brown folks are trying to enter?Porter: Yeah. So writing a book is a really interesting process. [laughs] I'll start by that, saying that. So when I wrote the book, I decided that I wanted to write a book to professionals of color, because that's, again, what I'm--that's what I know. That's the group I'm a part of. And when you write a book, what's really difficult is that you have to pick one audience [to?] talk to one reader, and you have to make sure that you are speaking in a way that the reader can follow you. So when I chose to write this book, I chose my audience to be the Jopwell member. I chose to write to a professional of color, and in that conversation I am basically mentoring and saying, "As a person of color, regardless of your environment, this is how you leverage your diversity as an asset, and you have a unique opportunity to do so." What I wasn't able to do in the book was talk about what companies can do to create environments where people can actually leverage their diversity as an asset, because if you try to [?] in one it becomes very complicated. You can't--the reader can't follow along. So the book is about what we as professionals of color can do, but now there needs to be a conversation about what can companies do to create environments where this can actually happen? And so a lot of what we do from a Jopwell perspective to companies is that we discuss with them different strategies and ways to think about building diverse, inclusive, and equitable environments, and it really starts [at] the top down, meaning that, like, the senior most people, the CEO, the board level, they have to be committed and bought in. Companies have to clearly define and articulate what diversity even means in the context of their organization. Are you talking about ethnicity? Are you talking about gender? Sexual orientation? Socioeconomic background? What are you talking about? Because to build a culture that is inclusive--well, inclusive of whom? You know? And I think that's a really important concept. And then how do you measure if it's working? And so there are a lot of steps that companies have to take. Unfortunately, a lot of companies don't feel comfortable having uncomfortable conversations and they want to jump to solutions without really thinking through "What does success look like?" So at Jopwell, when we work with a company, we take them through those stages. We work with them to define what success looks like. And diversity and inclusion is not, like, a 1-year initiative. It's gonna be ingrained in your culture moving forward. So it's a long-term play, and so there's a lot of work that we do with companies that's less tech-focused--it's a lot of human capital--but because we're doing that at work, we can help the community find opportunities that they should be able to thrive in.Zach: And so let's talk about that. I want to press a little bit more on what you said about, like, you know, you stated that a lot of times--that part of the inclusive culture for folks to actually leverage their diversity well is in organizations being comfortable having uncomfortable conversations, and I've noticed that too, that, like, a lot of times if you mention the word race, or you mention the word gender, or you mention any of these words that indicate other, you're right, organizations will often kind of go to, "Well, we're just gonna do this, this, this, this, and this." It almost becomes, like, a--like they're putting out a fire, right? It's more reactionary and it's not solution-oriented, and you talked about people being comfortable with those uncomfortable dialogues. What does it look like for Jopwell to help organizations work through some of that discomfort?Porter: Yeah. So what we tell companies is that if there's something that's happening in the world or in the country that disproportionately affects a certain community and you have that community as employees within your organization, how do you express that in a way that's, like, non-polarizing or non-political? Because you should treat your colleagues and your peers as you would want to be treated. So if you're from a community and something's happening within that community that's, like, on national news and you don't address it as an organization, like, of course that employee won't bring their whole self and their authentic self to work, and if they don't bring their authentic self and their whole self to work you're not gonna get the most out of them. So how do you create [environments] where these potentially uncomfortable conversations can occur in a way that it's respectful and that employees understand that the workforce that you work in is very inclusive and these conversations are just a part of the fabric of what makes the organization's culture special? So, like, let's start small, right? And so thinking about topics and news conversations that are happening, how do you start to address those things? Now, we've seen many companies do really interesting things on the back of our recommendations when these things occur. Some companies have hosted town halls where they bring all hands, and, you know, it's a conversation of what's going on and what's the position of a company around certain topics that they cannot ignore. And the feedback has been incredible, naturally so, from the attendees, because they felt like they were seen for the first time. And then again, like, if companies aren't used to doing those things, it can be potentially uncomfortable. So that's an important concept.Zach: And kind of going into that, right? And I shared this a little bit earlier. What excites me about Jopwell is that it's not a job board - it's actually a community, and I talked about this earlier, but it's a community built by and built for underrepresented folks, and, like, that comes with a lot. So I think about Living Corporate--and Living Corporate and Jopwell are not the same, right? Like, the missions are different, but there's some similarity in that we exist as a resource for underrepresented voices, and I think that comes with a lot. I think for Living Corporate it's unique because we're really just here on, like, the employee side. Like, we're just here to amplify voices, but we're not--we don't necessarily have, like, the same connected, like, broad community that you have, and we're also of course not managing, like, tons of corporate relationships, and so I'm really curious about, like, what does it look like for you and your team Porter, to manage the emotional labor of, like, carrying and advocating for and building this platform to amplify and support black and brown folks while at the same time managing, like, the business relationships that come with that?Porter: Yeah. So it can get very complicated, but we always--because [we work?] for the community, the community knows what to expect from Jopwell and companies know what to expect from Jopwell. So we don't speak to the community any differently than we talk to companies, and we don't talk to companies any differently than we talk to the community. Like, we are very consistent in who we are. For us, we always do what we believe is the best for the community, and Jopwell takes stands on things that we feel passionately about that affect the community, regardless of what companies think. So a perfect example is during the last election, when Trump won, we knew, positive or negative, there was gonna be a very strong reaction from them. So even though we're a tech company, we knew we had to host a town hall, or create a forum, where people can share their perspectives and how they feel. So we hosted a town hall in New York City. We had, you know, several hundred people show up. No real agenda other than hearing the perspective of the community, and people shared how they felt, and just providing that forum, I think, was beneficial, and we felt that we had a responsibility to the community. So we know if we're thinking these things, others are thinking these things at work, so there needs to be an outlet where they can have these conversations about all of the stuff that's going on. And so, again, we have to be very committed and very--and always bring it back to we are a community-first class [?]. The two things that we believe are best for the community--again, as long as we're consistent and then companies know that, the community knows that, and Jopwell will always do what's best for the community.Zach: Man, I love that, man, you know? I just--and I appreciate it, and it feels--like, to your point around consistency, like, it's really cool--'cause I've seen other... I don't know. It's just interesting, right? And, like, I've talked about this to other, like, diversity and inclusion leaders. I think that we're seeing this pattern of some of these spaces becoming a bit more authentic in their language and in their presentation, and I really do believe that Jopwell is leading the cause in that, right? Because a lot of times when you have, like, these spaces that are, like, led by predominant majority folks, they can sometimes come across lukewarm or silent on certain spaces, and then it--like, it creates an inconsistent brand, because it's like, "Okay, well, if you're for diversity and inclusion, you should have a voice on this topic because it's impacting the people that you claim to advocate for." And I do recall content coming out around the election, and I do remember just being, like--feeling really affirmed by that. So question for you - you talked a little bit about forums. You recently hosted Jopwell's first ever summit, Jopwell Talks. It looked like an awesome event. Can you tell us a little bit more about the day and what you hope attendees took away from the summit?Porter: Yeah, absolutely. So we were so thrilled to host that event. Basically, Ryan and I, my co-founder and I, we've gone to diversity and inclusion conferences time after time after time over the last, you know, 4.5 years or so of building Jopwell. It was frustrating to me that I didn't leave feeling inspired [for, like, what] tomorrow brings me, and we are incredibly fortunate that throughout the Jopwell journey there have been many mentors and celebrities that have joined the movement with us, and we felt that we could provide these trailblazers [?] a stage to share stories of how they got to where they are and the things they've learned along the way that the audience can recognize that there's no linear path to success and that these individuals that we can highlight, we felt that it's not often that you get access to these folks. So we wanted to create an incredible environment, so we rented out the Brooklyn Museum. We wanted to have the most outstanding speakers, so we went after [sticks?] - Gayle King, Dr. Michael Lomax, Antonio Lucio, the CMO of Facebook, Edith Cooper, [?]. I mean, just incredible folks. [?] loved hosting it. And from these individuals, we were able to share their story and highlight them in such a way that the audience could follow along and let the conversations breathe. So we didn't have panels. There were no breakout sessions. It was amazing content from amazing individuals, and we crowd-sourced some of the questions. You were involved in this incredible environment listening to these folks, and what I've received as feedback from people, they left feeling motivated and excited to [see] tomorrow, and they saw these folks, and that was the goal of the day, and so we're very thankful that people were excited to attend and that they wanted [to be a] part of it, and, you know, we plan on doing a lot more moving forward.Zach: Man, that's incredible. And look, Porter, you know that we appreciate you. Super thankful that you were able to join on the platform. In fact, you know, it's pretty customary. We got to. You know, we typically drop air horns. We drop 'em at the beginning, but I got too excited and nervous 'cause you're on our show and so I didn't drop 'em. So I'ma go ahead and drop the air horns right here--[air horns sfx]--and I'ma go ahead and give you a Flex bomb--[Flex bomb sfx]--and I'ma give you some coins, 'cause you been dropping dimes. [coin sfx] And I just want to thank you, man. I appreciate you. Thank you so much. Before we let you go though, any parting words or shout-outs?Porter: No, [but] I appreciate the work that you all [do]. You know, the more that we lift each other up, the more opportunity exists for everybody, and this is not a zero-sum game, and I get very frustrated when I'm the only person of color in a room, and--again, the conversations need to keep happening, and that's the only way we're gonna start changing things. So thank you for building this and for allowing individuals to hear stories at scale. It's what I need and needed when I was thinking about what I wanted to do next, and it's not often where you can get access to folks and really hear their authentic stories. And so it's an incredible platform that you're building and, you know, thank you for doing that.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Man, I'm about to blush over here. Yo. [laughs] Listen, y'all, it's been Zach. You've been listening to Living Corporate. We are real talk in a corporate world. You make sure you check us out on Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram at @LivingCorporate. Make sure you just check us out anywhere. You know, just Google us, you know what I mean? We're not Jopwell level, but we're out here. You just Google "Living Corporate." You want to check out our website? Check out livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, living-corporate--please say the dash--Porter, do you know we have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, man? We've got all them domains. I'm trying to get it, man. Australia has livingcorporate.com, but we're gonna get there one day, man. Let's see here. I think that does it for us. This has been Zach again, and you've been listening to Porter Braswell - general beast, but specifically for this podcast, CEO and co-founder of Jopwell. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of chatting with Brittani Hunter, founder and CEO of The Mogul Millennial, and they discuss how to go about effectively using your voice at work. They also talk about The Mogul Millennial platform in general, what she's looking forward to in the future, and what initially led her to its creation. Connect with Brittani on Twitter and Instagram!Check out The Mogul Millennial website and follow them on Twitter and Instagram!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and again, look, y'all know what we do. We have incredible guests all of the time. Now, this guest is pretty interesting, because, you know, as I've been--as we. Shout-out to Ade, shout-out to Sheneisha, shout-out to Tiffany, shout-out to Tara, shout-out to Taylor, shout-out to Tristan, you know what I'm saying? These are all sounding like random names, but these are all people that actually I work with on Living Corporate. Shout-out to Amy, okay? I see you. We have all--as we continue to really build out Living Corporate, folks, there's one name that continues to come up. Like, "Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person?" And I'm like, "Yes, I have. Yes, we've made a connection. Yes, we still need to interview. Yes, but I do know who that is," and it is this individual, and this person is a LinkedIn Top Voice. They're an entrepreneur. They're a writer. They're an educator. They're a public speaker. They're a mover. They're a shaker, you know what I'm saying? They're a snatcher of edges, you know what I'm saying? They out here is my point, and this person is Brittani Hunter. Brittani, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Brittani: I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me.Zach: No, no, no. Thank you for actually being on the show. In fact, let me go ahead and just--just a very modest, you know what I'm saying, cheer, just to welcome you, you know what I'm saying? [cheers sfx] Nothing too crazy. Just something to kind of get us started. For those of us who don't know you--I know I kind of gave a little bit, but would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Brittani: Yeah. So like you mentioned earlier, I'm an entrepreneur and also a LinkedIn Top Voice. I am also a proud HBCU grad, so if you went to PVAMU, shout-out to you. I am based here in Texas, Dallas to be exact, and I've been in the entrepreneur space for about 3.5 years, but full-time since January of this year. So January of 2019.Zach: Okay, now, wait, you're not gonna shout-out your HBCU?Brittani: I did. You didn't hear me? Prairie View A&M University. So PVAMU. ["ow" sfx]Brittani: [laughs] Yeah. It's the best HBCU in my opinion, so yeah, shout-out to you if you are a PV grad as well. Zach: Shout-out to the HBCUs. It's so funny, 'cause, you know, no one ever goes, "Shout-out to the PWIs!" But, you know, it's cool. Shout-out to education, and definitely shout-out to HBCUs. My dad went to Jackson State, and my mom [was Miss?] Tougaloo back in the day, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I came from good stock is what I'm trying to say. [jokingly] You're not the only person out here flexing in your complexion, that's all. Okay, so look, today we're talking about using your voice effectively. You talked about being a LinkedIn Top Voice. First of all, what does it mean to be a LinkedIn Top Voice?Brittani: So every year, LinkedIn, they'll select people that currently use the LinkedIn platform--hence the name LinkedIn Top Voice--and what it is is people that they recognize that are making an impact through the platform, and so an impact on the platform through their content. So yeah, to become a LinkedIn Top Voice essentially means that you're recognized as someone who has influence and a heavy impact on the users, on the thousands and millions of users that are on LinkedIn.Zach: Let's talk about you being selected. Like, what did that process look like?Brittani: It was actually a surprise. So I was literally at my old 9-to-5, um, not doing work, checking my personal email on my phone, and I saw that I had an email from one of the editors. And so LinkedIn has several editors that specifically focus on different subjects, and so the editor reached out and was pretty much saying that they love all of my content, that they, you know, on the back end they've been seeing how much engagement and all the high impressions that my content has been getting, whether that was my blog content--'cause, you know, LinkedIn has the publishing platform that you can publish blogs on. So whether it was that or just my normal, you know, short-form or long-form posts, and they were wanting to see if I was interested in being a part of their LinkedIn Top Voice selection. And so it was pretty much--that was really it. They required for me to write a post, so once they released the list of all of the LinkedIn Top Voices in the different categories--and by the way, I was selected in the category for Management and Culture. So yeah, once they released the article with everybody that was selected, they also released a series of articles from each LinkedIn Top Voice that was selected.Zach: That's really, really cool. You know, what's really interesting about what you shared is that, you know, you said you weren't even expecting it. You were just doing what you were doing, and then it just happened, right?Brittani: Yeah. A lot of people think that there is, like, some type of formal application or if you, like, reach out to someone that works at LinkedIn that you can get it, but it doesn't work like that. If you just keep doing what you're doing and just be focused on--and you're just, like, focused on actually putting out great content, then you'll be noticed, and if you're lucky they'll select you as a Top Voice.Zach: You know what? I just--I just think it's really incredible, and like I said from the top, everybody that I talk to, as I've been talking about Living Corporate, they're like, "You know, you really need to talk to--have you talked to anybody from The Mogul Millennial?" And I'm like... but it's just been, like, an ongoing conversation, and, you know, since then, and really frankly to this day, I'm just really excited that we were able to make this connection, you know what I mean? [to this day sfx]Brittani: Yeah. [laughs] I love the soundbites. I love it, I love it. Zach: No, I appreciate. So look, on your platform you share real talk, right? So the latest piece that I personally read was about black leadership at Fortune 500 companies being at its lowest, yet black celebrity partnerships are booming--and it's so interesting because, at the time of this recording, of this podcast, you know, Jay-Z just announced that partnership that he has with the NFL for the social justice movement thing. Anyway, in it you assert that while exploring the direct and subtle implications of that fact, right? So basically you go into it, right? A lot of your pieces do this, where you have, like, this fairly, like, strong initial statement, and then you really go into the nuances and the implications of whatever you stated, right? As black creatives who are focused on content centered around business, I think there's a line we have to decide when we're going to, like, not cross, right? Like, and show how honest or raw that we're being. What has that journey looked like for you specifically and how you've balanced, like, discomforting truths with managing a brand that extends far beyond your family and close friends?Brittani: Yeah. So I think, for me, what I just try to, like, you know, work at towards every day is just, like, living my truth. When you're not living your truth, you know, you're the one that's mostly impacted, and so whether that was--you know, whether that's me right now as an entrepreneur or me back when I was working the traditional 9-to-5 in the workplace, I'm not going to downplay, you know, what I think or try to sugarcoat, like, my thoughts and my feelings because of someone else, and so I think it's important that when we speak on our truths it also empowers other people to do the same. So specifically through Mogul Millennial, I like to have those types of conversations and so that way, you know, the issue at hand isn't ignored or it's not--you know, it's not watered down.Zach: And so how do you feel like that philosophy could be applied to, like, black and brown professionals in their day-to-day jobs and how they use their voice?Brittani: I think, you know--it's funny. So it makes me think about--like, a really quick story. When I was working at one of my last 9-to-5s, it was a predominantly white workplace, and one of my coworkers who was black, she would just, like, literally turn her personality all the way off, even from, like, the foods that she ate.Zach: Wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] What you mean the food that she ate?Brittani: Yeah! So she wouldn't eat things like chicken in the office or really be, like, really careful on the types of fruit that she would eat.Zach: The types of--oh, so she wouldn't eat, like, a banana is what you're trying to say?Brittani: That, watermelon. You know, like, the traditional, like, things--[haha sfx, both laugh] Yeah, like, you think about, like, black people, and it was weird. So we would have, like, potlucks at work, and if people brought chicken she would say that she was allergic to chicken, but she loved chicken.Zach: She would say that she was allergic to chicken?Brittani: Yeah. It was like, "Girl, why are you doing this? Just be yourself and people will like you for it," you know?Zach: Can we have, like, a real conversation about this though? Okay, so I was talking to my--my wife and I were talking about this. We talk about this often, and Dave Chappelle did a whole stand-up skit about it, but you know how, like, just racist--anti-black racism is so lazy. So it's like, you really think that chicken and watermelon are, like, exclusive to black people? Do you know delicious watermelon is? Do you know how delicious chicken--like, do you know how many cultures enjoy chicken? We all love chicken. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. So she would not eat watermelon. She would not eat bananas. Bananas are--you know, they're a lot of sugar, so if you're watching your weight and you're trying to, you know, kind of cut down on your calories, I can understand--Brittani: Yeah, the carbs and everything. Yeah, I get it, but, you know, from that to, you know, purposely not listening to music that she wanted to in her own personal office.Zach: She had a personal office?Brittani: Yeah. It was just crazy. Like, do what you want to do. Like, be yourself. And so she would say all of the time, like, "Well, Brittani, you're gonna listen to this type of music in the office?" Yes. This is my office. You know, I've earned my role. I'm just as qualified as the next person, and I'm not gonna feel uncomfortable at work and not do things that are true to myself, but the person next to me is, just because we're two different skin colors, come from two different backgrounds, and, you know, upbringings. You know, it doesn't mean that they can do something that I can't. And so one of the things that I learned is that, you know, when you're true to yourself, people, they like the real you. They want to know the real you. You don't have to whiten it to be accepted. So yeah, I highly encourage people in the workplace to not, like, you know, whiten or change who they are just to quote-unquote "fit in," because, you know, people can recognize bull**** and they know that it's not the real you anyway.Zach: That's right. Now, look, this is a clean podcast, but, you know, I respect you, you know what I'm saying?Brittani: Oh, I'm sorry.Zach: No, no, that's okay, but when you said it I was like--[Metal Gear Solid surprised sfx]--you know what I'm saying? Like, "Okay, wait." But no, no, you're absolutely right, people can recognize it, and you just want to be yourself, you know? It's interesting. We had a conversation on Season 1. It was, like, our first episode, with Fenorris Pearson, who was--he was, like, an executive with Motorola and Dell, and he talked about the fact that he went on this plane ride, right, with, like, this very senior white executive, and he said, "Look, we can tell when y'all are putting on airs, and, like, it's fake." Like, "We hate that. It's annoying. We can see right through it. It's awkward. It's clearly not authentic," right? Now, I don't want to shame anybody, because we've been classically--we've been conditioned to put on coverings and participate in respectability politics as a means of survival, so I'm not shaming anybody for doing those things, but at the same time--not but, and we also live in a time when, look, you have a voice. Use it and be yourself, right? Like, if you want to listen to Rick Ross, you know what I'm saying, do that. You want to smoke a Black and Mild on your smoke break? Go ahead and do that. Like, nobody's gonna stop you. Like, it's okay. It's all right. Maybe not a Black and Mild. [both laugh] I'm trying to think of the last time I've seen somebody smoke a Black and Mild, like, in a work setting.Brittani: Oh, God. I don't think I've ever seen that. That's funny.Zach: Like a 'rillo. That'd be like, "Ooh, what's going on?" [both laugh] No, no, no, but anyway, let's talk a little bit about Mogul Millennial, right? You've talked about the fact it's been going on for three years. What have you been most proud of so far, and what are you looking forward to most in the next, like, six to twelve months?Brittani: You know, when I think about, like, everything that I've experienced in these three years, the thing that I am mostly proud of was getting out of my [?] and realizing that I literally cannot do everything. At my last job, I was--I've always been in management roles, so I'm used to being, like, head over something, you know?Zach: Hold on a second. So wait, wait, wait. You said you've always been in management roles?Brittani: Yeah.["ow" sfx]Zach: Okay, I got you. Keep going. Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so when I started, you know, The Mogul Millennial, it was, you know, just, like, a side project in the beginning since I couldn't dedicate all of my time and resources to it, but yeah, once I decided that I was gonna go full-time with it, I knew that, "Okay, well, Brittani, you can't, like, grow this company. You can't, like, really be as profitable as you want to be, and you're doing everything." So you're doing all of the social media. You're writing all of the blog posts. You're the one trying to pitch yourself and your company to different brands and partners, so you can't do it all, or you can but it's not gonna be really worth anything, or it won't be as good as it could be and as impactful as it could be. And so I really didn't want to at the beginning, I decided to put out a post asking for help, and once I did that, like, our traction increased. I felt like the content got better because we just had, you know, more diverse opinions and thoughts from--like, black millennials literally all over the world were contributing, and so I think that's what I've been most proud of, you know, recognizing that I don't know everything, and that's fine, 'cause now I have people that help me out day-to-day that are so much more better at certain things and more knowledgeable on certain topics, and I've learned a lot as well from those people.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, I feel you. Like, it's tough when, you know, you're at a point, you're grinding, and you feel like you're doing everything, right, like, to the point you're just at your wit's end. You're looking at 'em like ["what more do you want from me?" sfx] You know? It's just like, "I can't." Like, "I have to reach out." That's really important. So, you know, you not only used your voice to create your platform, but you used your voice to extend and expand your platform, 'cause you had to actually use your voice to ask for help.Brittani: Mm-hmm, absolutely. So right now--it was crazy, 'cause when I put out the first post--so since I'm... I have the highest, like, influence on LinkedIn, so, you know, I went to what I know I'm good in. So I put a post on LinkedIn, and literally within the first, like, two weeks, we had over 150 people who were like, "I want to write!" And it was so overwhelming. So between--and remember, I was still working at my 9-to-5. So in-between meetings, like, literally as I was going to, like, meetings, either, like on-site at my job or off-site, or during my lunch break, anything--on the way to the restroom, I was having interviews with these people. 'Cause some people, you know, I had to--I wanted to be accommodating as well, 'cause I wanted to help, and so yeah, it's been good. It's been really good.Zach: So what does it look like, right, to continue and build out this platform, and--actually, let me take a step back. What did it look like when you actually left your full-time job? Like, what did that conversation look like?Brittani: So I had actually planned to leave and was really strategic. So I--I think you and I had talked before and I mentioned that I lived in Houston for a short period of time.Zach: For a little bit of time, yeah.Brittani: Yeah. So originally I'm from Dallas, and I went to school at PV, which is by Houston. Went to PV, came back to Dallas, and was working at a university that's, like, north of Dallas in a small--well, not small... well, yeah, small, but it's [?]. So I was working there at UT Dallas and I remember being approached by my boss's boss--well, no, my boss's boss's boss. So, like, three people above me, to work at the property at the University of Houston, and I denied them, like, three or four times, because the pay wasn't right and I was like, "No, you're not gonna pay me [?]," and I have to move and uproot my life, and so eventually we negotiated back and forth. I got the rate that I wanted plus more, and we--and so yeah, I specifically took that role because I knew that I wanted to quit within a year so that way I could work on Mogul Millennial full-time, 'cause we were doing really well with the site, and so--so yeah, I literally only took the promotion--well, it was like a lateral promotion, so it was the same role but different duties. Zach: But you had got that [cha-ching sfx].Brittani: Exactly, exactly. Making extra money, so I took it knowing that, "Okay, well, I can save money even faster and, you know, quit and be way more financially comfortable."Zach: I got you. So you were, like, kind of scheming on the low, but, like, you know, for yourself though.Brittani: Yeah. I mean, they do it all of the time with us, with [?]. So I had no regrets, no shame. [laughs]Zach: Oh, no, no. Hey, I'm not shaming you, I'm just chuckling 'cause, you know, you negotiated that deal and you're in the background, you know, you're shaking his hand and you're talking about ["hehehe" sfx, both laugh]Brittani: Yep. So no, like, I literally stayed, like, long enough as well. So the year was special because, you know, within a year you can really do--if you're dedicated and persistent you can do some really good damage--well, not damage, but some good improvement. Zach: No, you said what you said. It's okay. [both laugh]Brittani: And then also with the relocation fee, you know, that's why it's important that you read everything. I read in the contract for the relocation [?] I was given that you need to stay for a year. So yeah, I left within a year, and then--so it really just looked like, you know, within that time period for me working at the other location in Houston, was to just save and grow my team, and then also focus on, like, upcoming products and plan out different projects that we're gonna actually be releasing this year, so I'm really excited about that, but it was a lot of hard work. So at my last company I was literally working, like, sometimes, like, 60, 70 hours a week, 'cause I worked in a very busy industry, but at the same time, you know, having a team was really helpful, and then I just worked crazy hours on the weekends, on my lunch breaks, before work, things like that.Zach: That's a blessing. It's a blessing to find folks who are, you know, engaged and willing to support, right? You know, I think we probably need to have you back just around, like, the principles of building a team and getting started, because I think a lot of times, and I'll say this for podcasting, podcasting is notorious for people, like, starting off really big with a splash and then being done after, like, 2.5 months, because the load of, like, getting content, researching, producing, it can get, like, tiring over time, so, like, a lot of podcasts don't even last a year, you know what I'm saying? Let alone--Brittani: It's a full-time job.Zach: It's a full-time job, and so, you know, it's tough. So that's incredible. I'm so excited. I'm so thankful that you've been able to be on this, on our platform. Now, look, again, Brittani, you're the first LinkedIn Top Voice that we've had on Living Corporate. How does that make you feel?Brittani: You know what? It makes me feel good, but it won't be the last. I believe in you guys.Zach: Ow! Had to do my own Cardi B "ow," goodness gracious. Thank you so much, I appreciate that. And, you know, I've gotta give you a Flex bomb just because you've been dropping casual just--[Flex bomb sfx] It's just ridiculous. Like, it's just incredible, but, like, I'm just so thankful that you're able to be here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Brittani: Yeah. So of course shout-out to my team. My editorial assistant, Alex, she came up with the name Mogul Mob and I love it, so shout-out--Zach: Oh, The Mogul Mob? Yeah, Mogul Mob be up in that WordPress putting content together like [Cardi B "bratbratbratbrat" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here.Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so shout-out to them. They are all amazing, even--like, in their own individual lives they do so many great things, from being startup entrepreneurs, small business owners, freelancers, et cetera. Corporate bosses. They are just amazing. But the only other thing that I want to also shout-out or mention is that we gonna be launching our own online course platform through Mogul Millennial. It's called Mogul Genius, so look out for that. It will be released to a private group of people in October, but after that we'll be releasing it to the general public, so yeah.Zach: Look at you. Come on, now. Well, first of all, again, you know what, just shout-out to y'all. I've gotta go ahead and drop these air horns right here--[air horns sfx]--for The Mogul Millennial and, you know what, for Brittani Hunter. Thank you so much for being on our show. Y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and on our website at living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, look, if you have any questions or any shout-outs you'd like to place on the show, you can contact us through the website or you can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us 'cause the DMs are wide open. Now, look, you can check us out online if you just Google Living Corporate. We're at all of the domains. Brittani, do you know we have every single Living Corporate variation besides Living Corporate dot com?Brittani: That's a smart way to go. A lot of people don't do that. I'm so glad that you do so somebody [can't?] steal it.Zach: Thank you. So we've got livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, but we don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia has livingcorporate.com. They've got, like, some apartment renting company out there.Brittani: Oh, my God.Zach: I'm saying, right? Now, look, one day though the brand is gonna be brolic enough we're gonna go and we're gonna get that domain. I just don't know when that's gonna be, but it's gonna happen. I'm speaking it.Brittani: They'll [?] forget to pay their renewal.Zach: They'll mess up. Yeah, real talk. Playas mess up, and they'll mess up too. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? We've talked about Australia a little bit. I'm really trying to be careful 'cause I don't want to create no international beef, but I very much so do want the domain, so I'm trying to figure out, like, what the best strategy is. Maybe you and I could have a conversation offline about that.Brittani: Yeah, yeah. I could tell you a story about that. Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, look, this has been Zach Nunn, and you've been listening to Brittani Hunter, CEO and founder of The Mogul Millennial. Until next time. Peace.

Zach speaks with Lionel Lee, Zillow Group's Head of Diversity Engagement, and they discuss his unique personal career journey up to this point. Lionel details what influence and coalition-building look like in his position, and he also shares some of the things that he's been able to do at Zillow that he believes have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks in the workplace.Connect with Lionel on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTSheneisha: Hey, y'all. Sheneisha here with Living Corporate. As you know, we're about having real talk in a corporate world. With that in mind, before we get into this amazing discussion with Lionel Lee, we want to let you know this content makes mention of violence, which may be upsetting, so if you're listening with some little ones, discretion is advised. Zach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast, and of course you know what we do. We have interviews, conversations, right, that serve to amplify the voices of black and brown folks at work. And what do I mean by that? I mean we typically have black and brown folks, leaders, executives, creatives, entrepreneurs, you name it, on the show, having real conversations about real topics, and today is no different. We actually have with us today a very special guest. I'm very excited to speak with this person. I've been in contact with him for a little while, and I'm excited just to, like, get him on the show, 'cause, like, we've been texting, and then we talk on LinkedIn, and then, you know, we've been trying to coordinate. Even today we were coordinating back and forth. Lionel Lee. Lionel Lee is the head of diversity engagement at Zillow Group. He provides career development support to underrepresented employees and works with executives to develop equity and belonging policies to improve employee experiences. He also serves as a connecter between employees and community organizations. Prior to joining Zillow Group, he worked in talent acquisition, sourcing candidates across technology and banking industries. Okay, so really quick y'all, all of that to say he's by the people, for the people, you see what I'm saying? Okay. Helping communities has always been a constant throughout his life. Lionel has created and developed community groups that promote health and wellness. He's worked with HIV/AIDS education groups, substance abuse/addiction organizations, as well as health groups for youth. Lionel immigrated to the United States from Korea at age 5. His experiences growing up in south-central Los Angeles and later in the projects of Honolulu, Hawaii--I'm gonna ask a question about that in a little bit--helped nurture his passion for community building. With all that being said, Lionel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Lionel: I'm doing well, man. Thank you. Appreciate it.Zach: Now, look, you know, of course I've got all of these questions for you and everything, but the first thing I gotta ask - you talked about the projects of Honolulu. Hawaii has projects?Lionel: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Honolulu has projects, and growing up there in the '70s and partial '80s, yeah, it was kind of rough, 'cause most people don't know about that, 'cause what they see about Honolulu and hear about Honolulu is it's just a paradise, but it's not really a paradise for all. You know, the level of poverty there, still to this day, is [amazing?], but back then it was like--where I grew up, in Kalihi--Kalihi is a town right outside of Waikiki, and it's--the projects are called Kuhio Park Terrace. We call it KPT, or Killer Park Terrace. Kill People Today. That's what it was, and I lived on the 16th floor, and I had to actually walk up the stairs to get to my apartment because there was a young lady that got her head cut off in the elevator, so the parents and kids, you know, catch the elevator. And then, you know, you have the same stuff that you have in a lot of different projects. You know, you have a lot of drug abuse, and, you know, you have people defecating in the stairwells. So that was the smell you walked into every single day. The crazy thing is that the dude that cut off the woman's head lived two doors down from me. And he kept it. Kept the head. Zach: What?!?!!!!!!????????????Lionel: He kept the head. But, um...Zach: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sorry. Wait, wait, wait. You said he kept the head?Lionel: He kept the head. He was--he was a Cambodian dude, and he was just mentally disturbed, you know? He just had some serious stuff going on, and he kept the head, and we found out, like, you know, two weeks after it had happened, you know? That was--it was a very different kind of place. Very violent. You can still look up--actually, you can go on YouTube and look up videos from Kuhio Park Terrace, and they'll show you videos of what it's like at KPT to this day.Zach: To this day. That is--that is--wow, that is shocking. I'ma tell you, you know, Lionel, in your short 3 minutes of being on the Living Corporate podcast, you have given us the most gangsta introduction we've ever had. And I'm not making light of anything. I'm just taken--I'm very taken aback by this. Wow.Lionel: Yeah, I don't have the typical--you know, I don't have the pedigree of someone that's in my position, definitely. I'm not--you know, I just wasn't raised like that. I wasn't--you know, I didn't think I was gonna go to college. I didn't go to college. I didn't get a degree. You know, I had to work and do all of that kind of stuff. It's just I was given certain opportunities and took advantage of every single one, you know? Made the very best that I could, and I've always had a tremendous work ethic, you know? Just, you know, been out of my house since I was 17 years old. I've lived in my car for, like, three days, just so I can be out here, you know, just doing my thing. You know, just doing my thing and just trying to keep it moving.Zach: Wow. Well, kind of to start there, let's talk a little bit about that. So you've started on that path, but kind of talk to us about your journey from Hawaii to the head of diversity and engagement at Zillow. What did that look like?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer at one time. That was pretty weird. I've done everything, man. Like, I can do stuff around my house--like, right now I'm remodeling my house, and my kids will be like, "Where'd you learn how to do that?" And I'm like, "Man, it wasn't nothing about learning. I just had to survive." Zach: Wait, wait, wait. So let's take a step back. You said you were--you were a what dancer?Lionel: I was a gogo dancer for a little bit. [Zach laughs] Yeah, when I was, like, young, you know, and that kind of stuff. So I was raised extremely religious. My grandfather is a Baptist minister, and I was raised in the church, so we didn't go out and do that kind of stuff a lot, you know? And I went to, like, school dances every once in a while, and I always liked to dance, so as soon as I got out of my house and, you know, I didn't have nobody telling me what I could and could not do, you know, I got caught up in the dance club scene for a while, and I was going there a lot, and the dude that owned the club, you know, he asked me one day if, you know, I'd want to just come in and, you know, get paid for it, right? But it was like--I don't know if you remember. I don't know how old you are, but--Zach: 29.Lionel: There was this one dance that I was really good at. It was The Prep. I don't know if you remember what The Prep is.Zach: Nah, what's The Prep?Lionel: It's just a dance that, you know, like, a lot of black folks did, you know, back then. You know, I'd have to show it to you in order for you to know what it was, but people around my age group, they know what that dance is, and I was really good at it. You can be extremely creative with it, you know? So the dude just kind of, you know--and I didn't paid, like, a lot. It was--like, that was my part-time gig. My full-time gig was, you know, managing the Church's Fried Chicken, which was down the street from the club, right? So after work at Church's Fried Chicken I would shoot over there, and back then they would throw some, you know, neon sweater or some shit on me, and then I'd get on there and, you know, do my thing. [both laugh] So yeah, that's a snippet of my background, but the way that I got into where I'm at now is--the funny thing is I met a dude on a basketball court, right, like, when I was in my late twenties, and it was one of those stereotypical things, you know? I got into a fight with this dude on the basketball court, you know? Like, you know, you get into a fight on the basketball court, they find out you can fight, and then all of a sudden everybody wants to be your friend, right? So dude wanted to be my friend. He was a white dude, and I had never had too much interaction with white people honestly, and definitely not on a personal, you know, like, friendship level. That just wasn't the way I was raised. So I was kind of cautious, and at that time I worked for an organization called Street Outreach Services, and it was an HIV/AIDS prevention organization. It was led by this amazing sister from Brooklyn. Her name was Amani Wood. She recently passed, like, a couple years ago, and I consider her one of the strongest individuals I've ever met and was lucky enough to have her as a mentor for a very large portion of my life. But anyway, she and I were working together, and then I came up with this crazy idea that what we should be doing is we should be documenting, you know, crack addicts and crack dealers under the age of 18, 'cause that's a group that we were not capturing. So the city of Seattle liked the idea. My organization liked the idea. So I ended up doing that for about 2.5 years. So I was going into crack houses and stuff, like, you know, at 3:00 a.m., you know, 4:00 a.m., and dealing with a whole bunch of kids, and I dealt with the kids--I mean, I had one sister, her name was Beautiful, literally, and she was 13 years old, you know? She was 13 years old with a baby and she was a crack addict, and she was a crack dealer. So, you know, I had to deal with that, and that kind of stuff is emotionally extremely taxing, and the--I just couldn't do it as--I couldn't put as much of myself into it as I was, so I was starting to get burnt out, and dude--you know, he was a recruiter, this white dude that I had met, right? He was like, "Hey, you ever thought about, like, recruiting?" And I was like, "I don't even know what that is, man." And he brought me up to his office to show me what he did, and, like, a lot of young black men and young black women and kids that come from, you know, lesser economic areas, you know, when I saw a computer I thought, "Nah, I can't do that," you know? 'Cause, you know, "Computers are magic, right?" They're not meant for me. They're meant for, like, geniuses, right? You know, "Black kids can't do math." You know, "Black kids can't do this kind of stuff," and I bought into a lot of that. I bought into a lot of that kind of stuff. But I had a two-year-old child, so I had to do something, you know? 'Cause I wasn't making enough money, and I wanted him to have a better lifestyle than I did growing up. So I took him up on it, and, you know, I shot across the bridge over into Bellevue from Seattle, and then--I don't know if you know Seattle, but in Seattle you have east side and west side, and when you go across that bridge, man, it's completely different. Extremely affluent. Very, very white. You know, as a brother back in the, you know, '90s, you couldn't be on that side if you weren't an athlete, right, or somebody else, you know, that they recognized, because if you were a black person that they didn't recognize, the cops would give you a hard time. Like, literally. They would follow you around and stuff, right? But I went over there and I interviewed, and I interviewed with, like, nine blonde-haired, blue-eyed women, man, sitting around the table. I was like, "Man, I don't know if I want to do this," and they offered me the job, you know? And I was like, "Whoa, what do I do now?" And at that same time I was actually interviewing with the fire department, and walking out of that office--I drove, like, this beat up 1984 Volvo, you know? And when I say it was beat up, I mean it was *beat up*. There was 100 and something thousand miles on it. The paint was peeling, you know? That kind of stuff, you know? I put on the best clothes that I had at that time.Zach: That was a bucket.Lionel: It was a bucket. Man, it was a buck-et. And I'm walking out, and every car in the parking lot was like Mercedes, Audis, BMWs, you know, that kind of stuff, and I was like, "I don't know, maybe I can do this." And so I accepted and started there, and struggled, man--I struggled a lot. I mean, I struggled so bad the first three months. There's a very large organization. It's called EDP Contract Services. Now I think they're called TAC Worldwide, and it's one of the largest recruiting organizations in the world. At that time, I forget exactly how many people they had, but I know that at one time I was ranked, like, something like 2000th or something out of the company of recruiters, and by the time--I had to make a decision at one point because--you know, because I was basically told that I could be pretty successful in this if I got the street out of my voice, right? So I started [?]--you know, I went home and was, like, frustrated over it, you know? And my girl at that time, she was pretty hood too, so she was like, "[BLEEP] them. You know, we can sue them. Blah, blah, blah, blah," you know? But I went to bed with my two-year-old son, you know, and I was like, "Man, I've got to do something." So I made up my mind. You know, I made up my mind that okay, well, this is what I'm gonna do, and I walked into the office the next day--I got there at 6:00 in the morning. Nobody was there. And I didn't leave until, like, 8:00 at night, and then I did that for, like, a whole year, and I became #2 in the company, and my income went up something like 300% in a year. Zach: Goodness gracious.Lionel: Mm-hmm. And so I figured out that yeah, I can do this. And then I went to--excuse me, sorry. I went to San Francisco right after that. I got recruited by a staffing firm there. I didn't like them too much, so I started my own staffing firm. We did $2.5 million in our second year of business, and that was just, like, you know, three of us, right? And then we added some people on and that kind of stuff. Then I came back to Seattle and, again, you know, got recruited by another company and became the manager for recruiting for a startup during the dot-com era. I was killing it there, then the dot-com bubble burst, and then I went to Washington Mutual as their diverse executive recruiter, and that was probably one of the worst work experiences I've ever had, 'cause what happened--what happened was they wanted this person, but one of the head people in this department didn't want this person. They didn't feel the need for a diversity executive recruiter. So they waited for her to go on maternity leave and then, behind her back, hired me, right? So my first day of work I'm walking down the hall and this woman walks up to me and she goes, "Who are you?" And I said, "Oh, I'm Lionel Lee." And she goes, "Well, what do you do?" And I said, "Well, you know, I run diversity executive recruitment here," and she just looked at me, and I got this, like--it was chilling. Like, this look was crazy, and then the next thing I know, man, like, seven months later or eight months later, you know, maybe close to a year later, you know, the whole group was disbanded and we all had to leave and, you know, go do our own thing. And it was kind of crazy too. The way that they told you was, you know, they asked you to come in for an early morning meeting. I went in for an early morning meeting and they had HR there, and they said it's disbanded.Zach: So where does Zillow come into play?Lionel: 2007 hit, man. 2007, 2008, 2009, you know, and I went through all of my money, and I had to get back to work, you know? So I joined a really small recruiting firm that was, you know, bullshit. They didn't know what they were doing. [both laugh] But then there was this other recruiting firm that I really wanted and I went and joined them, and they were amazing, and--that's one of the crazy things too, the dude that hired me--he's, like, this really young--comparatively. I think he's, like, you know, close to 40 now--Republican white dude, right? And he hired me on to the company, and I go in there and I'm on the phone the first day, and he said "Hey, Lionel, can I [?] you for a second?" And I was like, "Yeah, what's up?" And he goes, "Man, who the hell is that on the phone?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" He goes, "Do you know you sound white?" And I was like, "What?" He goes, "Yeah. When you talk to me normally, you know, we're fine, but whenever you get on the phone you sound white," and it's because of what I learned in the earlier part of my career.Zach: Code switching, man. Yeah.Lionel: I was code switching. And I told him, "Well, you know, that's how--" And he goes, "Nah, man. I don't think that's why you're successful. I would really love to see you be you. I got enough white dudes in my office. That's why I hired you." [Zach laughs] And I was like, "Oh, okay," and then I started really, like, trying to understand what just happened, and the reason I ended up here at Zillow Group--I stayed there for, like, five years, six years, right? And I ended up killing it there. I was always either #1 or #2. And the reason I ended up here is that the person who had hired me on at Washington Mutual, she became the vice president of talent acquisition here at Zillow, and she--I started my own company after a while, again, right, and she was one of my clients, and she asked me to come in, and she said, "Lionel," you know--this was, like, 2016. "Lionel, we're really trying to do this diversity thing, man, but we don't know what we're doing." You know, "Would you want to help us?" And I said, "Well, I can put something together." You know, I talked about it with them a little bit. They wanted me to do it. I couldn't dedicate time to it 'cause I had my own staffing firm at that time and my staffing firm was doing extremely well, but what happened was that it kind of grabbed a part of me that I didn't know really existed. My experience in tech as a black man was horrible. I mean, it was horrible, so I decided that, you know, by doing this I would be given an opportunity to better the experiences of other people that are underrepresented in the tech space, right? 'Cause when I was starting out, you know, there was no other. You know, there was me. There was me, and I was probably the only one that I knew with the exception of, like, one or two that worked in other agencies. But it was me, right? And it was horrible. I hated it. I mean, I couldn't--there was no way that I could tell somebody that "Yeah, this is a good day." I woke up every single day begrudging going to work, and eventually I was able to push down to the point where I didn't realize that, you know, there was a part of me that was always anxious, right? And that's when I got a chance to change, you know, within this organization, and then what I'm hoping for is that this organization will be--you know, will be, like, a beacon for others to take a look at, right? Like, "What did they do to make a difference?" Right? 'Cause we did. We changed how we are as a company. We've changed the way that we're perceived. You know, people want to come to work here, you know? That kind of thing, and, you know, the brown and black folks here are much happier now than they were. We know that because I'm very data-driven, and we took some surveys and things like that that let us know that the things we're doing are working. But that's how I ended up in this position. And I was a consultant at first, and they--you know, we talked about 20 hours a week. 20 became 40. It became 60. It became an obsession, you know? Because I--you know, I was like, "Ooh, I get a chance to--"Zach: Really move the needle in some way, yeah.Lionel: Yeah. Not just move the needle, but, you know, just--you know, we talk a lot in those kind of terms, right? Like, "move the needle," you know, that kind of stuff, and the way that I looked at it was never really like that, you know? The way that I was looking at it was, you know, "Improve the day-to-day experience of the underrepresented worker going into the tech space." That was my--that's my driver, right? The way that I describe what I do is that my job is to make sure that everybody that comes to work is happy and feels like they belong. That's my job. That is my job, and I--I don't like to say I love my job, because I don't think in that way, but I'm extremely proud of what we've done here at Zillow Group. I'm extremely proud, and I'm hoping to continue on this path and, you know, continue to make us an employer of choice.Zach: [applause sfx] I mean, what can I say? I mean, I hear you. This is incredible. Look, I have another question, but I want to get into this really quick though. You talked about some of the things that y'all are doing here and, like, they've been serving well. What are some of those things that you've been able to do at Zillow that you believe have helped to improve the sense of belonging and inclusiveness for black and brown folks? Lionel: Well, that was the thing, right? 'Cause one of the things that they had asked me to do was go out and find best practices, and the crazy thing is that there were no best practices 'cause nobody was really killing it. Nobody's numbers said that they were killing it, right? So I had to come up with my own stuff, but what that gave me was green fields. So I could do a couple things. So one of the first things that I did is I was walking through the office one day--and we had this wall of speakers, right? And the speakers--I looked at that wall, and it's a pretty big wall of all of these, you know, headshots of all of these speakers that we've had come into the office, and I was like, "Damn, every single person on there is white." Like, literally. Like, every single person on there is white except for one brother that we had, and of course he was a football player, right?Zach: Of course. Of course.Lionel: Right? And I was like, "Come on, man." You know? So I changed that immediately. That was one of my goals, to change that, and I did that. You know, we brought in people like Van Jones. We brought in people that were from the Islamic community. We brought in people from the Latinx community. Totally changed that whole landscape, right? And then we started talking about, like, just simple things like events, you know? Because that's one of the things that tech companies are known for, right? We have these crazy-ass parties where everybody has a good time, but not everybody gets down like that, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't grow up that way, you know? I don't go out and--you know, I'm not one of those people that like to [imbibe?] in that way and that's how I party. That's not how I do. I like the music. I like to dance. I like that kind of stuff, you know? And I'm not saying that we're all the same, but there are certain foundational pieces that make us a little bit the same. [?], right? And so we started throwing, like, parties, but I would tell the dudes that came in--I started going out and creating relationships with external organizations that were representative of underrepresented groups within our company. So we had professional organizations that I went and made agreements with, and then they would come in and they would throw the parties. And they asked me, they said, "Well, how black do you want this to be?" [both laugh] And I was like, "I want it to be as black as you want to make it."Zach: Right. It needs to be black black, with a Q.Lionel: It needs to be, 'cause you have people here from, you know, predominantly black areas, right? You've got a kid that grew up in a predominantly black area. He goes to an HBCU, you know, does really well there, and then all of a sudden he's thrown into this, right, where he's one of--I think we're at, like, 9% or something like that, right? We're still improving in that area, right? And then he's just got to, like, hang out and do what these guys do? You know, why don't we give him some of what he had back home? You know, why don't we create a sense of community for him, you know what I mean? And we did that, and then we started taking a look at some of the things--and it's all from my own experience, right? One of the things that really bothered me is, like, when all of the brothers was getting shot, you know, I felt completely alone in the office, and I had nobody to talk to about it, right? And what we did is we started--we created a forum here where people can--when things like that happen, for example when the El Paso shooting happened recently, you know, we had a forum here inside the office where people from the Latinx community could get together, along with people that were not from that community but allies that were in positions of power and strength here at the company, we all got together and we had a conversation, and we, you know, basically video-taped everybody in from all the other offices, and we had this, you know, straight up conversation about what this feels like, and that made a difference in people's experience, right? And then we talked about "How do we do our recruiting?" We started taking a look at--I started taking a look at how we do the recruiting in the first place, right? Many of our people that come on board come on from internships, so how do we effect that? Well, we start creating more relationships with organizations that are representative of us. So we started a relationship with NSBE, the National Society of Black Engineers. We started a relationship with SHPE, Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers, right? And then we put into practice talking to the CTO, the chief technology officer, who is just--you know, he's cool, he's just really cool, and I gave him an a-ha moment when I took him to AfroTech, like, two years ago.Zach: Oh, yeah. Shout-out AfroTech. Shout-out Blavity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Lionel: Yeah, by Blavity, right? And I took him--he was one of the only white dudes there, and I was like, "Look, you know, I'm gonna introduce you to some people. You're gonna have some good conversations, and then we're gonna talk about it afterwards," and he was like, "Cool," but he walks in and there's THOUSANDS of black people, man. Where people were telling him, "Oh," we can't be found, which is bullshit. Zach: It is, man. No, it is. It is so annoying, Lionel. Well, it's annoying and it's insulting and it's racist, right? So you said, "Well, we can't find this talent"--like, we're all over, and, like, look, AfroTech is an obvious one, but man, there are also, like, a lot of, like, local, like, groups, right? Like, there's all--if you go to any major city, there's some grassroots coding group that is black and brown, right? And honestly, even if you just take the time and look in the PWIs that you're recruiting, if you just look one more time, they're there too. Like, we're here. Lionel: Right, right. So what we did--he saw that, and we came back and he was like, "What do we do?" And I said, "Well, let's figure out some strategies," and what we started doing is we started making--'cause Boeing has doing been this forever, but Boeing's been going to NSBE and making offers on the spot, right? And so it was like, "Okay, well, let's do that," and we started doing that, and we started increasing our numbers because of that, right? And then those kids that were coming in as interns, we started converting them to full-time, and then on top of it their experience as workers here is real cool because, like, I'll walk by, you know, and I'll talk to 'em and be like, "Hey, what's happening, brother?" You know? "How you doing?" And they'll look at me like--Zach: Even that alone, which is small, right? It's huge to them.Lionel: It's small. It's really, really small, but it's so important, right? People gotta feel like they feel belong. People gotta feel like they're appreciated, right? That's what has to happen, and that's what we started doing. That's one of the things. I could go on and on, man. We've done--when I say I'm proud of the work that we've done here, I'm extremely proud of the work that we've done here.Zach: Rightfully so.Lionel: Yeah. The executives have been fully on board. You know, we also do this other thing where we understand the C-level, the C-Suite, has to be on board. So we do a thing called the MB Learning Series, which is twice a month. You know, we get together, myself, the senior VP of community and culture, and some other key individuals that are well-versed in this space. We'll get together with a bunch of people from the C-Suite, and we'll sit down and we'll talk for about an hour, an hour and a half, about whatever it is, right? It could be a current event that has impacted an underrepresented group, or it could be about something that they've encountered themselves, right, that they want to know more about, right? So we work with them, and they get to learn, they get to learn what's happening, and it changes their perspective and it changes the way that they go out and approach things and make decisions, right? We have our CEO--our CEO is, like, one of the only CEOs where, you know, in his signature file, you know, he has his pronouns, right? Because that's important, you know, to understand that not everybody identifies in that way. Understanding that people identify differently is extremely important, 'cause it puts you in a different place in your learning, in your journey, and that's how we got here. I mean, there's--you know, I could go on and on, but that would take up your whole segment.Zach: No, no, no. This is great, and look, Lionel, we'll just have you back. It's not a problem, man. We'll just have you--[both laugh] You'll just come on back. But it's interesting, really quickly, about the pronoun point, right? So, you know, some research that Living Corporate has been doing, you know what I'm saying, on our whitepaper--if you check us out on the website, you know, you'll see us on there, and we talk about the fact that, you know, 14% of millennials identify as trans or non-binary, right? So it's a real statistic.Lionel: Oh, it's a real statistic. It's real. And, you know, there's so many different groups of other people that do not feel like they belong. You know, they just--you know, especially with the current climate in our country today. That kind of stuff, the divisiveness of our country today, and, you know, we just--we want to make sure, in our company--and we've been voted, like, one of the best places to work forever, right? ["ow" sfx] Forever. But what was not being considered was that not everybody felt that way. It was not the best place to work for everyone. We found that out through our data, you know? We pulled some data that showed us that. So our goal is to make this the best place to work for everyone, and we don't--I mean, we look at everyone and make sure that they're taken care of. And we started our ERGs here two years ago. We dedicated a lot of resources to it. It has its own program manager that manages everything. That's his full-time gig. That's what he does to make sure that, you know, they're good. You know, we have all of the infrastructure in place for that. They're fully capitalized. Yeah. We do--you know, we do a lot of stuff here that a lot of companies don't do, and I think a lot of it just has to do with the fact that we've been following best practices. 'Cause, like I said, we didn't find any, so we had to create our own.Zach: No, that's incredible, and you're absolutely--this is the thing. It's so interesting because as commercialized and, I'm gonna say it, colonized as diversity and inclusion has become, right, like, as a space, when it comes to actually delivering and doing the work, we're still very much so in our infancy, right? Like, there's not a blueprint for anything.Lionel: No. No, there isn't, and that's--yeah, I would agree with you that there is a lot of stuff in our space that, you know, I kind of, like, look at three or four times too, you know? Like, "Really? That's what we're gonna do now?" [Zach laughs] But that's the thing, you know? Let's be creative, you know? Let's figure it out, and for me it was very personal, you know? That's why, you know, a lot of the stuff that we did here was me imagining me, you know, sitting there at work. You know, what would I want? You know, when I first started in this stuff, what would I want? I'd want to be able to come into work and feel like I can be the best me possible, right? But I don't have to, like, play by nobody else's rules about how I talk, how I walk, and all of those kinds of things. I don't believe that people should or can bring their whole selves to work. I don't believe in that. I think that, you know, there's some shit you need to leave at home, right? [both laugh] I don't believe--you know, like, my grandmother used to tell me, you know, "Tell some. Keep a lot." You know what I mean? You don't need people knowing everything, right?Zach: Yeah, keep going.Lionel: You should be able to be comfortable when you go to work. You shouldn't have to code switch as much. You shouldn't, you know, have to wonder about your place there as much, you know what I mean?Zach: I do. You're 100% right, yeah. Lionel: Yeah, that's what we did. Zach: You said, "Share a little bit. Keep a lot." But you're right though, and some of that, Lionel, is cultural, right? So, like, I would say black and brown folks--and I'll just speak for my experience. Like, I was raised, you know, you keep your business to yourself, right? Like, there's certain things, where as then, you know, there's stereotypes that white folks love to just tell everything they got going on. They'll talk about the medication they're taking, if they're depressed, you know? They'll share everything. But you're right, like, I'm not tripping on--I don't necessarily--my quote-unquote "whole self," like, I don't have to do that, but I should feel comfortable--right, I should not feel uncomfortable and dread going to work or feel like, man, just so otherized to the point where I can't even function.Lionel: Exactly, and being othered is real, and it's difficult for people to see that, you know? Like, "Oh, we're paying you," you know? "I don't know why you don't feel appreciated," you know? It's that kind of stuff, and it's like, "Man." You know, if I'm coming into work and I can't wait to get home--not because, you know, I just don't want to be at work for whatever reason, but just because I don't feel comfortable and when I get home is when I feel comfortable? Or I'm dreading going to a company event because I don't feel comfortable? You know, that's a problem. That's a problem. That's why there's more brothers and sisters that are consultants than full-time employees in the tech space.Zach: Man... listen. Oh, my goodness. So look, Lionel, you gonna have to come back, because I've got, like, four more topics we can talk about, [laughs] but you're 100% right, right? Like, you think about, like, it's these temporary, transient roles, right, that give you space, but then also, like--they give you space to kind of move around and not get too uncomfortable in these environments. Man, not to mention the pattern where I'm seeing a lot of black and brown folks are in these, like, non-client-facing positions. Like, they'll typically in, like, the security tech roles, but let me not even--let me not step on too many toes today. Let's keep going though. I want to respect your time. Let's get into how you and I connected. So of course, you know, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm active active on there, but I seen you on there, and you sent me a link about a project you're working on, which really got my attention, and I'd love to--I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that as well as--and just kind of your passion and interest as to why you're doing the work that you're doing on it.Lionel: Yeah. I think you're referring to the microaggressions survey that we sent out.Zach: That's right. Lionel: So Rebekah Bastian is the VP of Community and Culture here. She's my boss, right? I have a direct line to her and then a [?] line to the chief people officer. She and I sit right next to each other. It's an open kind of space. And she's a contributing writer for Forbes. So she was writing this thing on microaggressions, and I was like, "Let me read that," and I read it, and it talked about microaggressions towards women, right, and more microaggressions towards women, and I was like, "Man, that's crazy," you know? Because we suffer from microaggressions. And she was like, "You do, I know that." And I was like, "Yeah, I know you know that, but, you know, there's no data around it. Why don't we do our own survey?" You know, 'cause we couldn't find no data, right? We did the research and whatever, and she was like, "Yeah, I would love to write something on that, but, you know, I can't find any data," and I said, "Well, let's create our own data, you know?" So she put a survey together, and I sent it out to my network, which is pretty broad, and then many of my--that's one thing I want to thank everybody for, including yourself, you know? Many of them sent them out to their networks too. Like, "Hey, you know, this is happening. Let's talk about this." Right? And yeah, I came back and--I think we're gonna try and do this, like, yearly, and try to go even deeper, 'cause I think that it was a great introduction, but I think that we could have covered a couple areas that, you know, people really don't want to cover. But it's important, right? 'Cause I know that I suffer for them still today on a daily basis. I have to check somebody in a meeting or, you know, I also have to be mindful about certain things, right, you know, that they don't have to, you know? When I say them, I mean, like, white folks that are in my same position or at the same level that I'm at, right? And yeah, we still go through it, and it's difficult. You know, it's difficult, and we had to put that information together ourselves 'cause we couldn't find any.Zach: Well, to that point though, why do you think that I&D programs--so I have a bevy of my own theories, right, but why do you think, when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, we don't zoom in on black male or brown male experiences specifically?Lionel: I don't think people really want that wake-up call yet, you know what I mean? I think that people want to imagine that "Hey," you know, they got to this particular spot in their career, you know, they're making this particular amount of money, you know, they should be happy, right? But they don't know that for a lot of us--I mean a lot of us, man, a lot of us--you know, we have to deal with [BLEEP] on a daily basis that they never have to deal with, they never have to deal with. But nobody really wants to put light on that, you know? 'Cause then that would mean that we have to do some more work, and I think people don't want to do that, you know? I think that, you know, people try and find the easiest and fastest way to get to a certain point, right? But when we're talking about something that's this complicated and this nuanced, it's gonna take some work. It's gonna take some serious work, and--what is it--the implicit bias trainings and all of those kinds of things, you know, that's, like, the tip of the iceberg. Nobody wants to.Zach: No, they don't. And it's aggravating too, because even--so I've talked to--so in my current job, and then at previous jobs too, but, like, I have mentors here, and I've [?]--you know, what I find frustrating about us always running into implicit bias is that it makes the presumption that all bias is accidental or unconscious, right? And it's like, "No." Some of y'all actively don't want black and brown people here. Like, come on. It is 20--it is the age of our Beyonce, 2019. We know the deal. [both laugh] We know where people align politically. Like, more than ever we have direct insight into political idealogies, beliefs, and points of view on race, gender, sex, religion, sexuality. Like, we know all these things, so, like, let's not act like everything is "Oh, I stumbled across this racist thing." Like, come on. That's not the reality. So let me ask you this as we kind of wrap up. What are some of the challenges that you've come across as a black executive leader within an I&D space? 'Cause you're the second person. You're only the second person in one of these positions that I've met that is a black man. So you're in this position, right? Typically I see folks in this position are white women and maybe even white women who identiy as LGBTQ, right? As a black man, what does influence and coalition-building look like in your position?Lionel: Influence and coalition-building in my position? Well, one is--you know, one, you've got to have allies. I don't believe that we're in a position right now, that we have the power right now, to be able to make the change that we need to make without powerful allies, right? But at the same time, those powerful allies are working with biases themselves, so you need to make sure that you're training them up, mentoring up with them, to make sure that when they are supporting you that they're supporting you effectively and they know where it's coming from. I agree with you in many ways that, yeah, I don't necessarily think--well, let me change that. I don't believe that bias is a strong enough word for one thing. Two, I don't believe that it is all implicit. I do think that some people are just that way, and they just believe, you know, all of the propaganda and rhetoric that has been going on in the United States forever about us, right? And coalition-building really means getting rid of some of that, you know? Doing the, you know, behavioral change and thought change is important, you know? That kind of thing has to happen before people can really try to support you, because they have to understand that they are being affected, and their actions are being affected, by things that they've been taught for most of their lives in the United States, you know? The United States, man, we're--this is a country built on racism. This is a country that's, you know, built on the backs of us, you know? Whether you're Asian, Latino, Native-American, you know, that's what this country is built on. [to this day sfx]Zach: Straight up.Lionel: To this day.Zach: To this day!Lionel: To this day, right? To this day, and we have to get to a place where we recognize that. We have to get to a place where we're not okay with it. It is something that we're ashamed of, but it's something that we're gonna admit, right? That this is what's going on with us, and we need to move forward from here. That's coalition-building, you know? Getting people to really understand the mistakes that were made. Fess up to them. Own up to them. Make some changes, right? [?]Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Man, I love it. And, you know, this is the thing--you're the first person who I've had a conversation with who talks about the fact that coalition-building is not only bringing things in but also pushing things away, right? It's both. I love that. I love that. Well, look, let's do this. If you had three points of advice for any leader seeking to specifically recruit and engage black men, what would they be?Lionel: Make sure that what you want to invite them to is welcoming of black men. Do that, right? I mean, don't ask me to come to your house if your house is falling apart. Don't do that. Like, make sure your outline's right first, right? Make sure that you work with recruiting to help them to understand that, yes, they are out there, you're just gonna have to work a little bit harder. Make sure that you work with your executive staff to make sure that they're on board with whatever programs that you put in place so that you can make sure that you keep people once they get there. Zach: I love it. Just like that. And listen, y'all, you heard Lionel's advice, so we looking at you now. So you're gonna come around trying to invite black and brown men to your organizations, and we're looking back at you like [haha sfx]. Look, don't play yourself. Pay attention. This has been great, Lionel. Before we get out of here, any parting words or shout-outs?Lionel: No, man. Thank you for having me. You know, we've got a lot of work to do. You know, we're nowhere near where we could be, and a lot of this is about the economic divide, the wealth gap, and it's just gonna get wider and wider and wider. We've got to get on, you know, our bikes, man. We've got to get to work, you know, 'cause--we've got to get to work. We've got to get to work.Zach: Well, they're projecting that the median wealth of black families from a household perspective will be zero dollars, like, by 2050 or so, so you're absolutely right. We gotta--man, Lionel, this has been--like, no shade to everybody else, y'all, this has been top two dopest conversations we've had on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for being a guest. We very much so want to have you back. We'll talk about that offline. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. You've been listening to Lionel Lee at the Zillow Group. Make sure you check out all of his information. Links in the show notes. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach speaks with Kori Hale, CEO of CultureBanx, about CultureBanx itself and her personal career journey. They also discuss the concept of producing content, particularly while other, and Kori offers some great advice for professionals who are afraid to make a jump or do something new in their career.Connect with CultureBanx through their website, Instagram, and Twitter - and check out their content on Spotify!Connect with Kori on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we are here again. More fire for your head top, more content, more real discussions with black and brown people or people that affirm the identities and experiences of black and brown people to center--that's right--black and brown people. And today is no different, 'cause, you know, we're coming to y'all with really good conversations, often times with a special guest, and we have such a guest today - Kori Hale. Kori, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Kori: Hi, Zach. I'm great. How are you?Zach: I'm doing really, really well. I appreciate the fact that you were able to take the time to be on the show. For those of us who don't know you, could you talk a little bit about yourself?Kori: Yes, I can, but before I do, I noticed in the opening you said this show is also for people who affirm the identities of black and brown people, and I was wondering if that included Rachel Dolezal. [laughs]Zach: Oh, goodness. You know what? If Rachel wants to--here's the thing about Rachel. I--it's so confusing, 'cause she could have done so much more as an actual white woman and, you know, given and used her privilege as--you know, and given it away. Instead she chose to, I don't know, handicap herself, but then also take a bunch of, like, praise? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. What do you think? You tell me.Kori: Yeah, I don't know. It is a tough one. However, homegirl can definitely braid some hair based on that Netflix documentary that I saw, 'cause I'm like, "Yo." I mean, normally white people just have less-textured hair, so it's much harder to actually, you know, braid in extensions, and I ain't ever even seen anyone iron some hair like that before. [both laugh] She was teaching me some stuff! So I was like, "Oh, girl, I didn't even know you could do all that."Zach: That's so funny. But you know what? I think this is a really good segue into what you do and your platform, but I'd love to hear more about your journey and kind of--so let's just get it out there. You're the CEO and founder of CultureBanx, which is a media platform for black folks, for black and brown--I'm gonna say black folks, and I'll let you kind of get into it, but let's talk a little bit about your journey and kind of how you got there and then really more about what CultureBanx is.Kori: Yes. So my journey is--well, as I like to say, the path that we're all on in life is not easy, nor is it paved in gold, and that's a lot like my story. I started out as an investment banker, first internationally at a Swiss bank in London, and then I moved back to the States and I was with Goldman Sachs for several years and just really realized, right, that there wasn't anyone that looked like me delivering high-level business financial news in a way that really would resonate with my community, with my core values, and so I was like, you know, "If I can't figure this out, let me maybe try and go work at some of the big networks," specifically business news networks, right, and figure out how can I maybe inject some diversity, because I think that a lot of us, when you work in corporate America, the main thing that you want to do is feel like--and I really actually hate when people use the word "safe places" or "safe space." Like, there's no safe space when you get up and you go to work for somebody else every day, right? Because it's their company. So, like, that doesn't exist, even if they want to create some employee resource group or whatever. Like, the head of the employee resource group still reports to somebody that doesn't look like them, [?] like, up to the CEO of the company. And so I thought I was gonna be able to inject diversity at networks like Bloomberg and CNBC, and even when I was a news anchor down on the floor of the Stock Exchange and actually didn't even know until I was down there that I was the first African-American woman to ever anchor a daily news show from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange in its 200+-year history, and I thought, "Well, that's odd." Like, "What's going on here? Why has that never been a thing until I worked at this media startup?" But through that transition of investment banking to then getting into media, what I really realized was that there was no outlet, broadcast, print, or digital, that was gonna deliver the type of content that I was looking for. So if a former investment banker journalist can't create this sort of company for communities that need it the most, then no one else is gonna go out there and do it, and that really brings us more to the present day and CultureBanx, the media company, and what we do is create business news for hip hop culture, and essentially all of our articles have music attached to it that then spins out into different curated Spotify playlists. So it's pretty dope if I do say so myself, because I--Zach: Aye. [laughs]Kori: I mean, it is. I look at music as that sort of underlying theme throughout all communities. It's an easy way to engage, an easy way to see a reflection of yourself, and what if we took that same approach to information and content and not keep pushing just entertainment and sports and celebrity and that sort of stuff to minority communities? Because we think--and by we, the people that are actually even pushing the content towards these communities aren't even from those communities, but they're trying to say, "Oh, this is what they want. This is the only thing they care about," but that's not true. It's just that you're putting it in a, as I like to say, razzle-dazzle sort of way. If you did the same thing but you talked about stocks and mergers and acquisitions, what a difference you might see in those communities.Zach: No, you're absolutely. And I mean, I think the other piece is, like, also acknowledging the work that those communities are already doing, right? So there's more and more black tech spaces that are coming up organically, right? Like, you think about--there's multiple of these types of pods, like, within the coastal cities, the DMV, LA, Oakland, Houston, the Midwest and Chicago. Like, there's all types of just organic things happening. Healthy living co-ops. There's all types of activities that are happening in these--again, like, in these black and brown communities, but there are larger, I think, like--I don't know, just larger narratives and systems in place that minimize those stories. And also there's a lack of funding, right, and marketing awareness for those organizations that are already in place. What I think I hear you talking about is really exciting because you're pushing more content, and then I also believe CultureBanx provides opportunities, or at least opens up a lens to what is actually happening today in those spaces, right?Kori: Yes. We definitely provide people with what we call the culturally-attuned perspective in those spaces. I mean, it's easy to see a headline--to your point--about minority maybe co-working spaces or different companies or organizations, institutions, that are focusing in the STEM fields as it relates to minorities. What we really try to push over at CultureBanx are the everyday stories though. So not just [whatever?] falls in the minority bucket 'cause it mentioned something about the Latinx or Asian or black community, but this story is the headline on all of these platforms, and this is information you need to know, but they're not gonna tell you exactly why it's relevant to your community, why you should personally care about something like that. And Zach, can I go ahead and give your listeners a quick example here?Zach: Come on.Kori: So last year, Michael Kors--the company, the retail brand--bought Versace, a very famous Italian luxury retail brand, for $3 billion. You would think on the surface, "Okay, well, that's interesting I guess, if you're into fashion," or even if you're not into fashion, but no one is telling you why that deal is really a play on urban culture. And the reason that Michael Kors really wants a bigger stake in Versace is because of Versace's long-standing love affair with hip-hop, hip-hop and the community, and hip-hop of course being the #1 genre of music for the past decade.Zach: In the world.Kori: Right. Hip-hop leads these trends, and the majority of hip-hop artists are African-American. We've seen a huge rise, right, with Latinx performers in the hip-hop community as well, but still all in that, you know, minority category, and just that spending power alone of African-Americans is currently at $1.3 trillion, making the spending power of this community larger than the economy of Mexico.Zach: Come on, now. [Flex bomb sfx]Kori: Y'all gotta feel me when I say we have more spending power than the entire country of Mexico just as an African-American community, a subset of the bigger U.S. population, but it's more powerful than entire countries. And so to get in front of that audience, right, is something that most brands want, and no one is gonna talk about that the way we're gonna tell you "This is why this is important," right? This market move by Michael Kors to acquire Versace is much bigger than them trying to perhaps get into more of the luxury business and much bigger than Versace trying to figure out how it can get into more stores. It's like, "Hey, we know their main audience, the people that are spending money." I mean, think of all of the free advertisement that Versace gets in hip hop songs?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. 'Cause part of me--I was talking to my wife about this. I was like, "Dang, I wonder if any of these rappers--like, do they have deals that they don't talk about?" Right? Like, when Migos made that song "Versace," right, like, did they have some secret deal, like, a marketing agreement, and, like, did Drake get a piece of that? 'Cause, like, it's just wild that--like, we do that though. Like, we'll talk about Polo, Versace, Gucci. Like, we love high-end brands. We talk about Pateks. Like, we talk about--anything that's, like, European and very expensive, like, they end up in rap songs, and I just ask myself--and maybe I'm a little bit more conspiratorial than I should be. I'm always thinking about, like, there's just some grander scheme here--like, I just wonder, like, is there some, like, larger agreement that maybe even some of these record labels have with these European brands to then create this content? 'Cause you're absolutely right. Like, we promote it at crazy levels. Like, I wouldn't have wore Polos when I was in middle school like I did if it wasn't for Kanye, and I wouldn't have wore--like, there's just a bunch of clothes that I just wouldn't have purchased without--like, without rap influence, you know what I mean?Kori: No, I completely understand what you're saying. I think that that's what makes this so fascinating and so interesting, that other businesses, industries, sectors, they really value, right, the trendsetting and the taste-makers that come from minority communities moreso than we will value our own, you know, power, and that's the problem, because sometimes I don't think that we really immensely understand the power that we have. So when things are not going right, let's say on the negative side--racism, sexism, those sort of things--like, how valuable withholding your dollars from certain brands can be to move the needle.Zach: Yes, you're absolutely right. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, these insights that you're having around media production--like, the business insights that you're having and that you're bringing to this space, I mean, I think it comes from your business journey, right? Like, you've had a few different jobs, and you don't really give the impression of someone who's afraid to change. So, like, can we talk a little bit about where you started, and then, you know, what advice you would give to professionals who are wherever they are for whatever reason and they're afraid to make a jump and to do something new? Kori: Yes. I actually really love kind of telling this particular part of my journey, but I'ma take it back a little bit before I actually started working and shout-out my undergrad university, Hampton University, out there in the Hampton Roads area right outside of Virginia Beach. And going to an HBCU is a very great experience, but for me personally, growing up in Houston, Texas, I grew up knowing and being around affluent African-Americans, so that wasn't, like, a stretch for me, to see black people that had real money, not the--you know, the kind of clout money as they say. That wasn't really a stretch for me, but going to Hampton University and really getting a full scope and breadth of black people from across the country, like, that was very eye-opening for me, and what it instilled was really the value of appreciating what we can do as a community and, you know, us being a part of that talented [?] and what that would mean for the future of our community. And after Hampton, when I moved to London and started investment banking at the Swiss bank UBS, I was like, "Huh. Well, this is also odd, because now I'm back in this super minority--" I call it a double-minority status, because I'm not just, like, a black person living abroad--I'm a black person and I'm also an American, so it was just a lot of things to have to work through. But coming back to the States from London and working at Goldman, I kind of got a better sense of the way that corporate America worked, and I wanted--at the time I thought the ultimate goal was to become a partner, right? That's what you kind of train for, that's what you kind of work up--"what you should be," as the company will tell you, should be aspiring towards. [cha-ching sfx] And I'm like, "Okay, so let me sort out this path." And I figured out what that path was about two years after I started at Goldman. I stayed another couple of years, but after those first two years when I figured it out, I also got into the mindset of "Okay, I pretty much know what it's gonna take and how long it's gonna take me to get there." Like, "That can't be the mountaintop," so to speak, because there's got to be more to life than this. And I really just took those next two years where I was at the firm to kind of navigate what I wanted to do. Like, if you would have told me at the time that I started at Goldman that I would one day be running my own media company, like, I would have laughed at you, because I had no aspirations to be in media. I didn't know anything about journalism. Matter of fact, the day I left Goldman Sachs, I did not know one person that worked in media. I'm talking about not even an assistant, even a doorman at a building, security officer at a news room, nothing. Like, I literally knew no one that actually worked in any news corporation, but I felt like God spoke to me when I was at Goldman and said that this is what I should be doing. I just kind of decided to stick with it, and some of the partners that were mentors and sponsors for me, I ran this idea by them, that I, you know, was gonna leave Goldman and go to journalism school and try and become a business news journalist--they were very supportive, and they told me basically, like, you're young--I was around 26 at the time--and if it doesn't work out, you can always come back here. Like, "You can always come back to GS if it doesn't work out," but a lot of them were basically like, "Don't be like us." Like, "Don't buy into," essentially drinking the company corporate Kool-Aid, so to speak, and stay here because you've figured out the path and it seems safe and secure, because you'll always look back and say, "But if I would have given this other thing a shot, even if I failed, at least I would have known I tried." And going back to a respectable organization like GS isn't a terrible fallback plan for anyone. Luckily I haven't had to tap into that fallback plan, but you never know what the future holds. [laughs] So we can always see, but that's kind of how that transition happened.Zach: You know, it's just incredible because--I'll speak for myself, right? Like, you know, I didn't think that I would get here, where I am, in my job, you know? I didn't think that I would be--I didn't think I'd be working here. Like, I remember when I was in high school I said, "I think I want to be a consultant one day," and my high school counselor said, "You're not gonna be a consultant," right? You know? And then after that, before I became a consultant I was trying to pursue a career in HR. I had folks who look like me saying, "You're not gonna be an HR manager," right? So, you know, for me, because of that and not having a lot of people that look like me in these spaces, getting to one of these jobs seemed to be the mountaintop, right? But the reality is that there's more to life than just working for somebody else. And, you know, no shame to anybody who wants--like, who wants to be a career... career person, but there's more than that. You know, how did you navigate some of the--like, the fear and anxiety that came with, like, making that jump? So you came--I'm not gonna get into your pockets, but I would presume, I could be wrong, that perhaps your career at Goldman Sachs gave you a little bit more financial flexibility to, like, make certain moves and take certain risks that other people couldn't take. Is that a wrong assumption, or is that--you know, did any of that come into play in terms of, like--do you feel like, because of your job, you were able to--you had more space to kind of take that leap?Kori: I think my job gave me--and, like, the money I made while I was there, it definitely gave me the flexibility to be able to go to Syracuse's Newhouse School of Communication and figure out, like, "Could I make this journalism career a thing?" I think it definitely gave me that because I had the confidence to know that if, for whatever reason, it didn't work out, I would be able to go back and have, you know, a very good-paying job, but also, like, enough money, for the most part, to help me at least get through, like, the schooling part.Zach: So then--so let's talk a little bit about the concept of producing, right? So you're a content creator. You're a producer. It's a term though that's thrown around quite a bit, right? Especially, like, in today's digital age. What does it really mean in your mind to be a producer in the media space today?Kori: I look at content producers in general as people that are creating new original, authentic shows, articles, media content in general. So not the companies that are aggregators of information. Like, there are a lot of companies out there that are basically just pulling stuff from other people's websites, but they're not actually holistically creating something that was not there before, and that's really a major differentiator in the space, because--to your point about a lot of different, like, black and brown minority-based concepts popping up, you've got to be able to stand out on your own and be creating in a space that no one else is already creating in. I think that we definitely need minority spaces, but we shouldn't divide and conquer, right? We're stronger together. We don't necessarily need 50 different versions of co-working spaces for people of color. I'm not saying that we only need one, but would it make more sense to pool our efforts together in order to create something bigger? Zach: No, you're absolutely right. It's interesting though because it's--like, so kind of going on the co-working space thing and, like, other ideas, one, because, like, our networks--I don't know, our networks are just different, and also, like, because sometimes we come into spaces late, or we--and when I say come into spaces, I mean we don't have the same amount of support to, like, be early adopters in the spaces that we may see our white counterparts do. So, like, we'll come into a space, and we'll come into the space at the same time, and so it looks oversaturated, right? But I actually--like, I don't know. So talk to me more about--so you zoomed in on co-working spaces twice now. Like, talk to me a little bit more about what you're seeing in that space and why--like, what's your point of view on it? 'Cause, like, I think they're really cool. I'm a consultant, so I have a co-working space all of the time because of, like, just the nature of my job. Like, I can just go to any home office, like, through the firm that I work at, but I think that they're a pretty cool idea, and they seem to be used, but, like, I'm not really as plugged in. So, like, I'd be open to you educating me on it.Kori: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't--I have a co-working space as well, but I don't really use it that much, and it's not a co-working space at a place for people of color, but specifically on that front, like, I do know a couple of founders that are trying to launch their own versions of, like, specifically of women of color, others specifically for founders of color in a particular sector, like, that sort of thing. I actually feel like that is a very fragmented marketplace, almost much in the way of The Wing, which is a very popular all-female co-working space that WeWork has actually invested in, and I definitely think there's a space where, you know, women want to be, but one of the main issues with the WeWork is that there are no men allowed, which, if you're a smaller business--which most people that use co-working spaces tend to be--you don't always want to have to go outside of your co-working space for a meeting. And I think that there are other ones that have popped up along the way. Like, there's one for women executives, right, where it's also fragmenting the market, but it's fragmenting the market in a way that makes people feel like they're being part of an elite club, if you know what I mean. Like, "Oh, you have to be at a certain level at whatever your organization is to be invited to be a member here." I think that sort of way of strategically planning out how you roll out different co-working spaces for people of color is a better strategic roadmap to success than just saying, "We're opening up a place for people of color."Zach: What is the--what would you recommend as the approach to, like, unify and desegment that space?Kori: Right. I think the best way to look at it is like, "This is the community that we're trying to get in front of," or that we're trying to help, and really pinpointing "What are the most important things to those people?" And I can actually liken that back to CultureBanx, like, and going into roadmapping out how do you deliver content to this so-called new woke generation in a way that they can actually identify with and see a reflection of themselves and their community with? And when you think of co-working spaces, like, what is it that's most important to the community of potential co-working clients and users that makes the most sense? And back to CultureBanx, for us it was everything that tends to be pushed that does really well in front of minority audiences has something to do around entertainment, music, celebrity. So it's how do we bring that to what we do so that it doesn't seem like it's such a far off leap for people to be interested?Zach: So then what does it look like--you know, let's talk about, like, the professional who--maybe they're not looking to start their own company, they're not looking to--they're just trying to survive at their job, right? Let's talk about, like, the concept of producing and, like, bringing these--and, like, the principles that you're talking about with CultureBanx, and how do you think those principles can be applied to a black and brown professional at work? Because ultimately there seems to be a certain level of purposefulness and intentionality. That's the better word. A certain level of intentionality and strategy that it comes to really producing effectively and really kind of managing brand. Do you think any of that could be effectively leveraged, utilized, for folks in their 9-to-5 jobs? Kori: Yes, but I think it always starts with figuring out--like, knowing your end goal and working backwards. So as I mentioned earlier, when I thought my end goal was to become a partner at Goldman, it was "Okay, well, I want to become a partner. I'm only a senior analyst now." Like, "Let's scale back from partner and work our way backwards and see what it takes to get there," to your point, like, your own self brand management at work every day. And funny enough, this is something that a lot of people don't know about me, I actually left Goldman about two months after I got promoted, which is--but I had already been--but this is when I talk about the planning. I had already been planning, like, my strategic, like, exit. As you all know, I'm sure, that are listening right now, you know, you apply to a school, you have to wait to get in, that sort of thing. You know, take the tests or whatever tests you need to be admitted to these universities. So, like, I had already been strategically planning that, but I had also still been working on that plan of "If I do stay and try to navigate my way to someday becoming partner--" I was still working that plan too and, you know, just came to that crossroads of "Huh, do I--" Even after I got promoted I almost decided that I was gonna stay and not even pursue this whole journalism path. I'm like, "Oh, this happened sooner than expected." So, you know, I was on the high-performing track as they call it at some companies, the fast track to moving up. Like, there was no real reason for me to want to leave other than I felt like my life's purpose and calling was greater than what I was currently doing. And when you are constantly in this strategic mode of planning out "What does it look like in my 9-to-5 every day to be able to push to the next level?" Everything about what you do has to be very heavily managed, as a person of color especially, and I know that in corporate America people try to heavily, like, push this whole concept of mentorship and sponsorship. I will tell you I'm not a huge fan of mentors, and every time I say that people will, like, give me their pushback, which is fine. You're entitled to your own opinion. But especially in corporate America, sponsorship is significantly more powerful than mentors, because mentors, they can also be sponsors, but you know how much more effective it is if you come to somebody with a game plan already and say, "Would you be willing to help me navigate executing this plan or this strategy?" As opposed to going to a mentor and being like, "You know, I'm really trying to figure out what role I want," or "I'm moving to the next department and thinking through--" Like, show up with some skin in the game already. Like, "I've already done X, Y, and Z, and it would be great if you could help facilitate." Now, obviously most people don't want to--I shouldn't say they don't want to. Most people want to feel like they're imparting their wisdom and knowledge on you, but if you're in a position where you can make that person look good by helping them or by them getting you to the next level, that only sets you up for more success.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I also do think that there's a certain level--I don't know. I'm not trying to, like, pathologize nobody, and I'm not a psychologist, [but] I do believe that there is a meta-narrative of, like, non-minorities paternalistically trying to tell black and brown folks what to do, and they kind of revel in, you know, putting people in their place or just raising them in some way. [laughs] So I 100% agree with you. I think a lot of that stuff is often, like, self-aggrandizing and ego-centric. To your point around--like, I think it's more about the relationships you can build and what value you can directly say that you helped somebody else with to help them be successful. That's the way that I've seen people really climb up, right? It's not necessarily being like, "Oh, this person pulls me aside and gives me things to work on, and that's how I got promoted so fast." That's not really the case, 'cause you and I both have seen folks, you know, in an industry who have no business being in the position that they're in, and yet, you know, they're there, you know?Kori: Yeah. I mean, I think we all see that in this country, starting at the very top at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.Zach: Oh, wait a minute. Hold on now. [and i oop sfx]Kori: Not getting deeply into politics, but just saying, like it or hate it, if you agree with his politics or not--'cause people could say the same thing about 44, President Obama. Like him or hate him, you could argue one way or another and say maybe he didn't deserve--purely based on a resume, not basing on anything else. Purely basing it on so-called skills and qualifications for the role, you could make a case that he wasn't necessarily qualified, and it could be justified. You could make the same case for the current president, that he is not qualified for some of the same on the opposite end of the spectrum. I look at Barack and I say--excuse me, let me put some respect on that man's name. I look at President Obama--Zach: Come on, now.Kori: [laughs] And say that--it would be easier for people to say, you know, he doesn't actually have any business experience. He hasn't been serving in public office for any lengthy amount of time. Like, things that you would call into question for someone who would be taking the office of president. And on the other end of the spectrum you have president Trump, and you can say, "Yeah, he's run some corporations." They, on the outside, seem successful, but as we all know, when you dig in there are lots of question marks and, you know, missing documents, but you would say, "But he's never served in public office. What does he know about actually serving people essentially that aren't, you know, paying customers in that way?" Outside of the taxes that we pay. And you would question whether or not that someone is fit for that position. So yes, to your point, we all find that. "Why is this person in this position?" Well, most of the time it comes down to a likability factor. It doesn't come down to skill sets. And that's really my point, is that it's proven at the highest level. Like, something that my mom would always say to my older brother Kenan and I--primarily it started when we were in college--she would tell us, "You can either network or not work." Like, you going into work every day and doing your job that you're hired for, that's only 50% of your job. The other 50% needs to be you networking with people, because you don't know where your next opportunity is gonna come from, and your next opportunity, the likelihood that it comes from what you're doing sitting at your desk every day is very slim. It mostly comes from that person that you got coffee with once every two or three months.Zach: And I think this is the--so I don't know. I feel like you and I should actually have, like, another conversation. This isn't, like--you know, we don't typically do, like, in-depth conversations about different points of view on, like, whiteness or just, like, privilege, but, like, I'm curious to get your point of view on, like, even that. Like, that right there, the idea that you're building relationships off of the people that you're getting coffee with. Like, there are barriers to making sure that you even get that coffee, you know what I mean? Like, there are certain people that get invited to get coffee and then some people who don't, right? And then there's--and then as you even get to, like, the executive levels, you know, so many sales relationships are built on historical relationship equity that black and brown people just don't have 'cause they haven't been in these spaces. And so, like, I'm curious as to, like, your point of view on what does it look like--when you talk about relationships, when you talk about, like, navigating--and we kind of strayed away from the concept of producing, but I still think we're there. Like, what does it look like to use those tools to then, like, create those connections as much as you can?Kori: Yeah, getting invited to coffee versus, you know, kind of pushing your way in, I think that as a minority myself and other minorities especially working in corporate America need to take that ownership of organizing, of basically being like, "I'm gonna set up this sort of coffee situation." And I can give you all an example of my own personal story. So I worked at a media startup called Cheddar before I launched CultureBanx, and I actually knew the founder of Cheddar for a year or so before he ever even launched that company because he used to be the president of BuzzFeed, and then after that he was the CEO of The Daily Mail, and I knew him because I would book him as a guest to come on this show I used to produce for called Squawk Alley on CNBC. [owww sfx] And I used to just, you know, book him, and you kind of just build relationships, right, from being a producer, with different people, and that is essentially how I got that next role. So it had nothing to do with the fact of what I got up and went into work to do every day. Zach: Right. And again, what I continue to hear is just the willingness to put yourself out there. It's just so interesting, because, like, with non-whiteness I believe comes a certain level of unfamiliarity, right? So, like, you have the--if you don't look like somebody, even if--so let's just say there's two white people, right? They may have completely different backgrounds. Like, they may have completely different religious, socio-economic, even, like, cultural backgrounds, but that, like--the benefit of looking like somebody, there's certain grace that's given and space that's made to, like, more easily build relationships, where as if you're a person of color, like, what I'm hearing a lot--even though you're not saying it explicitly, Kori--is, like, you had to put yourself out there. You had to be enterprising. You had to connect the dots. You had to be much more strategic and intentional with your time and with, like, even how you present yourself and the things that you're doing and what you offer, right? Like, you had to really come--you had to really be thinking of a position of value creation, and that's great for you. Like, you're clearly a beast, right? Like, you've been--you've made moves moves, but what does it look like for--like, teaching that to somebody who isn't wired that way. Right? That could be challenging.Kori: It definitely is, and I am in no way a master of teaching it to other people. I know I have personal friends that say, "Kori, you're really great at public speaking," or "You're really great at going in and selling yourself or whatever it is that you're doing to other people." This is what I will say - it's a learned skill. Like, I didn't come out of the womb, like, doing this. There's definitely certain personality traits that are more akin to being able to just pick up these sort of things and these sort of characteristics, but it's a learned skill day in and day out, and it can start very basic. Going back to the coffee thing. Like, getting comfortable--which I know this is overused--with the uncomfortable, with making yourself uncomfortable. And if you're not the type who's gonna send a random email--which I love when people say to me, "Well, I mean, what am I gonna say?" I'm like--to your point about it kind of being a bit narcissistic with mentorship and that, people do love to talk about themselves. So just put it out there that, "Hey, you know, I'd like to talk to you. I'd like to learn more about what you do." And make it more about them. Normally, like, if you're in a relationship and you break up with somebody, you give them the "It's not you, it's me" speech. In business, give them the "It's not about me, it's all about you" speech. Like, when you send the email, like, "Hey, this whole thing is about you," right, "'cause you're so great, you're so fantastic. I just want to know about what you're doing." As a way to soften the introduction or the awkwardness that you think lies there, because you might not really know someone, even though that's something that you eventually might want to do or an area that you might want to move into. You have to do more, because you didn't go to boarding school with So-and-so, you know what I mean? You probably didn't go to all of the right Ivys, and even black people that have gone to Ivys, like--Zach: Listen, I've heard. Yeah, I've heard the experiences are different.Kori: Yeah. Like, if you didn't grow up in that world, like, you're still not necessarily accepted. So I think it's just you have to put yourself out there because they're not gonna know to contact you. Like, your parents, you know what I'm saying, y'all don't go sell off, you know, Martha's vineyard [?]. You didn't grow up going to summer camp for two months after you left boarding school, so basically you only saw your parents on holidays, and you're not even in college. You're only in the seventh grade. Zach: Right. You didn't go to Vermont to make artisanal pickles, you know what I'm saying?Kori: No, you didn't do any of that. So they already have 10--and that's just, like, at your level. Now you've got to think about how connected these parents are. Like, you're fighting a major uphill battle, and you can't go in every day and say, "I'm heads down. I'm gonna do a great job," which is something that they try to preach to you, right? Like, "Just go in. Work hard. Excel at your role." Like, "That's how you're gonna see opportunities."Zach: That's not true. Like--[laughs]Kori: You know why you're not gonna see any opportunities? Because your head is down at your desk or on the computer screen.Zach: And meanwhile we're upset. We're over here like [what more do you want from me? sfx] You know? It's just like--we're doing everything we can. So I 100% hear you and I agree with you, right? And not that I need to agree with you - this is a space of open ideas, you know? So diversity of thought is not real, but we do appreciate diversity of thought as it pertains or intersects with lived experiences of black and brown folks. So this has been super cool. Look, we've talked about CultureBanx, we've talked around CultureBanx. One thing we haven't done is talk about where people can learn more about CultureBanx, so please drop the info in here. We'll make sure to put it in the podcast notes and everything, but please let us know.Kori: Yes. Check us out at CultureBanx.com. You can find all of the content on our website. Sign up for our newsletter, daily newsletter, bringing you the latest, greatest, most important business news for the culture, as we say, every single day. You can also listen to the CultureBanx daily news briefing on any smart speaker device and also on Spotify. Everything is @CultureBanx on social media. Luckily we got in. There's no other company called CultureBanx, so it's the same--Zach: Aye. People underestimate how powerful that is. If you have the only name and you've got the domains--'cause let me tell you something. I've got--no, keep going. I'm messing your plug up. Keep going.Kori: [laughs] No, you're not, but it is important. Like, everything is literally just @CultureBanx. With an X, people. Don't forget.Zach: Please say the X, you know what I'm saying? Hold on. [Flex bomb sfx, both laugh] Oh, my goodness. Well, look, this has been super dope, and, you know, we just really appreciate you. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Kori: Parting words? I think the main parting words I would have is something that we say on our show, which is just keep building for the culture. Zach: Come on, now.Kori: We gotta do it for each other.Zach: [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Now, look, this has been a dope conversation. Thank you all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know--I wasn't trying to mess up Kori's plug, but y'all know we got all the Living Corporates, okay? We got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We don't have livingcorporate.com. We have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, but we don't have livingcorporate.com. Australia has livingcorporate.com. Believe it or not, Kori, Australia, and they're selling corporate stuff. But see, the SEO looking kind of brolic out here, 'cause now when you type in Living Corporate--they used to be at the top. Now they're like, you know, in 8th or 9th. You know what I'm saying? Like, we applying pressure, you feel me? One day the brand will be brolic enough where we're gonna go to Australia and we will politely, respectfully, yank that domain right on back, and we're gonna have all the livingcorporates, and we're gonna just sit on a mountain of domains, you know what I'm saying?Kori: Which is not a bad idea. I'm actually helping out this other startup that's trying to modernize central banks, and the name of the company--which I won't throw out there right now--is so generic, and the person, the founder, has been using, like, different versions of the name of the company to try and set up, you know, different social accounts, and they have--even the website's name is not what she calls the actual name of the company, and I'm like, "This is too confusing. Like, people don't know where to go."Zach: 100%. People be having, like, the dopest ideas and be like, "Oh, we're gonna launch Bread.com." Like, yo, fam, you gotta figure out something else. Like--Kori: Right. You had to launch Bread.com when the internet first started. Like, the late '80s, mid-to-late '80s. Like, that's when you needed to launch that, but at this point no.Zach: Straight up. Man, this is funny. This is, like, the first, like, interrupted outro we've done, but it's really good. I like it, and we might have to start doing this moving forward. All right, y'all. Look, you can check us out. We're everywhere. In fact, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. Stunt. That's right. Lowkey flex, but it's an honest flex. So Google Living Corporate. We out here. If you have questions you want to email us, check us out at LivingCorporatePodcast@gmail.com. Hit us up on the DMs. Twitter is @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram is @LivingCorporate, and until next time, this has been Zach, and you have been talking to Kori Hale, CEO and founder of CultureBanx. Peace.

Zach speaks with the founders of Dipper, Jacinta Mathis and Netta Jenkins, about the value of your personal voice. They also share their journeys that led them to create Dipper and talk about their plans for the platform in 2020.Connect with Jacinta and Netta on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know how we do, right? We come on, I say something like "What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate," and then I maybe remind y'all that we're a platform that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work, right? You should get the drift now. We're at, like, episode a hundred and something. Now, as you also should know by now, I'm bringing to y'all some more fire for ya head top, some dope guests. Now, this is really only the second time in the history of Living Corporate that we've interviewed two people at the same time, so, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to us for that, and I'm just really excited 'cause we're getting--I don't want to say two for the price of one 'cause that's kind of cheesy, right? But I'm saying we have two incredible guests, Netta Jenkins and Jacinta Mathis. Jacinta: Hey.Netta: Woo-hoo!Zach: What's up, y'all? Now, look, we're just gonna get straight into it. I'm not even gonna go through the whole intros 'cause y'alls bios, if I was to try to do it, you know what I'm saying, I'ma take up all the time. [Jacinta and Netta laugh] So for those of us who don't know y'all, please share a little bit about yourselves.Netta: Yeah. Jacinta, would you like me to start off? Or--Jacinta: Go for it, girl. Go for it.Netta: Okay. Well, I guess I'll start off with something fun. So I'm an Afrobeats living room dancer. Love Afrobeats.Zach: Oh, turn up. Come on, Afrobeats.Netta: [laughs] But aside from that, I'm the author of Self-Advocacy & Confidence for a Fearless Career, a Liberian-American woman. I'm a wife, a mom to a four-month-old baby boy and a six-year-old, and I'm also co-founder of Dipper. You know, by night, and vice president of global inclusion for Mosaic Group and Ask Applications by day in a full-time capacity. And I'd say, you know, in my full-time role I focus heavily on breaking systemic gaps and publicly challenging the notion of simply adding diversity doesn't equate to an inclusive and equitable work environment. And I'm just really excited about our Dipper platform that, you know, helps guide professionals to a better workplace, whether good, bad, or indifferent, and we're really, you know, giving people of color a voice, and we're holding companies accountable and helping them to be improved at the same time.Zach: Well, come on now, Mrs. Jenkins. I appreciate you.Netta: Hey, hey, hey. [laughs]Zach: Come on, now. Wait a minute, now. Let me give us this Flex bomb. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? That was incredible.Jacinta: That was well-deserved. Well-deserved.Zach: Well-earned, absolutely. Okay, now go on, Jacinta. You got it.Jacinta: Yeah, so I am Jacinta Mathis. I am a Floridian who's stuck in New York. I've been here for about 11 years, and I don't think I'm leaving any time soon. I'm a data-driven performance marketer. I also focus on product growth and really feel like that's my specialty. And, you know, I'm working on building amazing products and then telling people about them. That's a lot of what I do. I'm also an evolving executive at an amazing tech company and co-founder of Dipper with Netta that we feel is revolutionary in providing this digital safe space for people of color that we have, you know, formed ourselves, with our own network. We're just making it something that can exist at scale and reach millions of people. And also I am, you know, a life partner and a mother to my amazing little family.Zach: Wait a minute, now. [Cardi B "ow" sfx] You know what I'm saying? [all laugh] So let's do this, let's do this. You talked a bit about who you are, but what's been y'all's journey, right, in becoming the entrepreneurs, public speakers, educators, corporate leaders, you know, and advocates that y'all are today? Like, how did y'all get to this place where y'all came together to really create Dipper? 'Cause I want to talk about Dipper as we talk about really, like, the value of your personal voice, but, like, how did we get here?Jacinta: Yeah. I think this is how Netta and I connected, because we were both raised--like, somebody nurtured us, watered us, so that we could become the sisters we are today, and really I think our legacy and what has happened before we even existed really helped mold the journey that we live today. And so, you know, I moved to New York to be a writer, and I ended up working at interning--when you could intern for free and it was legal--at PR agencies. I also worked in a restaurant, and I also had a gig at Target, and through working in a restaurant I met someone who was a media seller and kind of told me how ad agencies in the city work and really helped mentor me into a role at an ad agency, and that was kind of how my media buying, kind of advertising and marketing career really kicked off. And then when everything became digital I kind of literally fell into a tech company that ended up not being successful, but then I ended up at a really successful one where I met Netta and really helped build my career. And I think from there I realized, you know, tech would be a big part of everything that I did, and really this kind of experience and providing a safe place was something that I looked for everywhere I worked, and so when--just talking to Netta, it was like, "We have to make this a thing." Like, "It's something we have to do together."Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, when I start thinking of the journey, it dates back to when I was much younger, and so, you know, my African parents, they really stressed the importance of education and confidence at a very young age. So while kids were on their summer vacation or playing outside, I was the one reading books and creating goals. And I read a lot. I asked a lot of questions. Sometimes teachers were a little overwhelmed. Like, "Damn, she's asking too many questions." And then also being able to hear my parents tell me, "Listen, you have the ability to create change," really gave me the confidence to do anything that I had set my mind to. And so it started off by me becoming president of the freshmen class, where I was one of only three black people in the school at that time, to heading off to college, graduating in three years instead of four. Just, like, really being ambitious in all of my goals and then starting a casting company in college, and really that was to create a safe space for women to model and act in the entertainment industry. Because obviously it's very--it's, like, predominantly male-driven when it comes to, you know, the clients. And then business led me to Boston, where I completed my MBA, and off I was after that to New York, because predominantly a large amount of my clients were located in New York. But unfortunately there came a point where, you know, my business that I had grown in college and had expanded was no longer sustainable, and so I started looking at technology recruiting contract opportunities because I just couldn't see myself in a full-time opportunity immediately after owning my own business. I'm like, "How am I gonna be able to report to somebody?" So that whole concept in my head, I just couldn't wrap my head around that, but I've always been passionate about technology like Jacinta, and data, and specifically providing opportunities for people. Love seeing people win, and that led me into my contract recruiter role with the current company that I'm with today. That turned into a full-time opportunity, and I was able to jump from level to level in a matter of four years, and now at a VP level--[cha-ching sfx]--uh-oh. Cha-ching. [both laugh] But, you know, I think what it is is there's a lot of people that ask me, like, "Netta, how were you able to get to the level that you're at so quickly?" And it's really about building meaningful relationships. I think executives were able to trust me. Executives saw that the employees trusted me. They liked the boldness, sort of the non-sugarcoating attitude in "We're not gonna have quotas here." You know, "We really have to dig deep and deal with some of these systemic gaps." And then just simply the ability to empower employees to create change, and I always say that the key to success has been persistence, working smart, and really never quitting, and I'm really, really excited that I'm working alongside with Jacinta. We worked together at the same organization for many years, and she's phenomenal. So to be able to have, you know, a teammate that you can learn from every single day is truly inspiring, and so I'm happy that we're in this place where we're at now.Zach: Well, come on, then. You know, I just--this is dope, and you've already kind of touched on it a little bit, but you said earlier about, like, using technology to help people. I'm really curious about, you know, your passion around that, because there's been multiple studies shown that even though the world is becoming more and more technically advanced and we're seeing--like, we're seeing opportunities open up within these tech spaces, [but] we're not necessarily seeing opportunities for black and brown people growing at an equal rate, right? Like, we're still seeing a bit of like, "Hm." I don't want to say segregation. We're not seeing, like, any type of uptick when it comes to opportunities and employment and progression and succession, and so I think that's really awesome that we have people in these spaces who are advocating for those voices and those people. So check this out. Today we're talking about--I said all of that as a digression in this mug. Okay, so now, today we're talking about the value of your personal voice. So, like, when did each of you realize that your voices mattered, especially within the workplace? Like, was there ever a moment where you were like, "Man, wait a minute. I can actually speak up and it mean something."Jacinta: Netta, do you want to go first? Or do you want me to? [both laugh]Netta: No, you go for it.Jacinta: I think--I feel like it's fortunate and unfortunate it took other people recognizing it before I really recognized it. I think Netta kind of touched on this a little bit too. Like, people will talk about you when you're not in the room, right? And hopefully those people are sponsors and will advocate for you, and I think it really became a point where it was like, "Oh, Jacinta should be here." Like, literally getting grabbed and brought into a meeting, you know? Or someone saying, "Oh, we think we should run with this product change. What does Jacinta think?" Or, you know, really wanting to understand your input and value, and then when you present something seeing people jump into action or, you know, really seeing change happen. I think that's when I realized--I was like, "Oh, wait. People hear me. Like, they're really listening to me, and they're really taking what comes out of my mouth as word and that it's something that we should do," and I think sometimes, especially as a black woman in a corporate space, you may tell yourself to, like, mute your voice a little bit, but I was finding that what is kind of the stereotype was what people wanted me to embrace in my own way, especially--'cause sometimes you're in a room and nobody's saying "This is wrong." So they're like, "Oh, we know Jacinta will call it a spade," you know? [both laugh] So it's really having people around me that helped empower me to realize, like, my voice mattered and that people were hearing me, and then I just got more--you get more comfortable in that, and then having your network--like, I had Netta, and sometimes we would talk to each other, and I would bounce an idea off of her or show her a presentation before it went before the executive team or the board, just because I was like, "Well, what do you think about this?" And that helped me strengthen my voice too in the workplace.Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think Jacinta's spot on with that. It's really about, you know, being able to lean on those people within the organization that you trust that empower you to have that voice, you know, to be bold, to speak up for yourself, to advocate for yourself and advocate for others. And so, you know, Jacinta was definitely that sounding block for me, and she still is even as business partners. We're always bouncing ideas off of each other, work-related situations like, "Hey, how should we get through this? How should we handle this?" And it's easier that way, right? It's harder when you're alone, and that's how come I think Jacinta and I both use the line "It really takes a village to create change and to get things moving." And Jacinta is my village, [laughs] so I'm thankful for that. I also feel early on as well I started noticing that I had a little voice and my voice mattered somewhat. Like I mentioned before, I was one of three in high school, and in middle school I was, like, one of two black people, and I remember just, you know, a whole bunch of racial slurs said. We were the only black family in that neighborhood at the time. It was a pretty, like, affluent neighborhood, and I remember going home to my mom and crying about some of the things that were said to me, and the one pivotal thing that my mom said to me is, "I didn't bring you on this earth to cry. I brought you here to create change." And I kid you not, that has been the most powerful line for me throughout my life, 'cause I always think about that. I'm like, "Wait, hold on. My mom brought me on this earth to create change." You know? And so when I got into high school, that's the reason why I ran for president of the freshmen class, because I wanted to create change. I knew of, you know, the inequities and the challenges that were going on. I was tired of them just putting up a picture of Martin Luther King and thinking like, "All right, we're done with Black History Month!" And then that's it, you know? I was really ready to challenge that, and I did, and I think that really prepared me for the work that I do now.Zach: So then let's talk a little bit about the work, right, that y'all are doing now, and about Dipper, right? And, like, by the way, the website is super fire. I very much so enjoyed the layout. I liked it a lot. But, like, how did this passion that y'all have and this realization, this self-realization of your voice and it mattering, play into the creation of Dipper?Jacinta: Yeah. It's so weird. I feel like every answer we're gonna be talking about our parents, right? [both laugh]Zach: That's fine.Jacinta: Yeah. So my dad was a chief diversity and inclusion officer for--I would say in the early '90s, before, like, diversity and inclusion was a thing--Zach: Your dad?Jacinta: Yeah, my father.Zach: Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. So you said your father was a chief inclusion and diversity officer in the '90s? [record scratch sfx, all laugh]Jacinta: You're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." Yeah. And so, like, before it was really a thing. He was a Fortune 500 company and pushing them to make strides to create these more inclusive workplaces, not only for their employees but also for their vendors, and just seeing a lot of those, like, conversations happen at our dinner table--my mother was an attorney at a law firm, and I think she was one of the only black attorneys, and she was also a female. And so just kind of--these are the conversations that you would come home to for dinner, and just hearing about the things that they were dealing with and how, you know, how they would get through it and how they would grow and maybe even how they decided to exit, you know? And then working with Netta and really seeing how we built this village and this corporate space to talk to each other about raises, promotions, breastfeeding advice, whatever, you know? We were leaning--although it's important to lean in, sometimes you also have to lean on somebody, [and i oop sfx] and so we had to lean on each other, you know? So we met--I think it was lunch. I don't want to be cliche and say it was brunch. And we were just, you know, articulating how this needed to become something that other people could participate in, and with our backgrounds in tech it just seemed like the right path. It seemed like the thing that we should do. And I think in my heart I wanted Netta to be like, "That was a horrible idea," [laughs] but she was like, "Girl, yes. We have to do this," and, you know, immediately we connected with a company that we knew--he actually went to college with me and is an alpha, and [I'm an AK?], and so I reached out to him immediately and was like, "We need a dope website," and they were able to work with us to create that. And I really feel like it's been, like, this catalyst that has helped us launch and helped us reach so many people. Zach: Well, shout-out to the Divine Nine, you know what I'm saying? [they laugh] I respect how you slipped that in there. You know, I'm a [?], but I always respect my--Jacinta: [laughing] It was not intentional.Zach: No, no, no, but it just comes out, you know?Jacinta: This is true. It just leaps out, yes. [laughs]Zach: Can you--I know we're gonna get to Netta's side, but I just want to pause really fast. I'm gonna respectfully ask that you tell your sister, Kamala Harris, to promote this episode when it comes out. We won't use any type of logos, so don't sue us please. But if you could just--[all laughing]Jacinta: I will [?] her right now. I will slide in her DMs. [laughs]Zach: Please. If you could. We'll even--I was about to joke and say we'll even put, like, some [?]--but I don't want any type of [Law and Order sfx], you know? No issues.Jacinta: Yes, I respect that.Zach: Okay. Well, cool, I appreciate the answer. Netta, please go ahead.Netta: Yeah, no, I--oh, my gosh. I don't have much to add other than Jacinta was definitely spot on. That's exactly how it happened, and we're really excited about this--you know, overall excited about this platform because it gives people a chance to really share their experiences, and also it gives us a chance to hold companies accountable if they are not doing it right. It gives us a chance to guide professionals of color in the right direction. It's funny - I'm a part of, you know, many different Slack channels. One in particular, Black Tech Women, and just today there were a couple of people that were just talking about, "Hey, I wish I could gain insight on this particular company," or "Do you guys know what's happening to this technology company?" You know, "How's the culture there for people of color?" And I'm like, "Listen, head to ourdipper.com, because we definitely provide that type of insight." So there's a lot more people that's looking for that. They don't want to waste their time in organizations that aren't going to value them, and we're really excited to be, you know, launching something like this that can push professionals of color in the right direction.Zach: I know we're kind of talking, like, around it. Like, we're saying, like, you know, at a high level what it is, but, like, from what we talked about, Netta, in our conversation--like, help me understand. If we were to, like, kind of compare it to something, is it almost like Glassdoor but, like, for the black people? And brown people?Netta: I don't want to say Glassdoor, right? We could say maybe, like, if Glassdoor, Yelp, and Black Lives Matter had a baby. Zach: Oh, snap. Okay, got you. I got you.Jacinta: That was good.Netta: Can I get a boom or a bang?Zach: Oh, hold on. Hold on, I apologize. Hold on, hold on, hold on. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? I got y'all. I got y'all. I was gonna make, like, a really bad joke and say, like, "Is it like Vibraniumdoor?" Jacinta: [laughs] And it's really focused--I think Netta and I--and this is all based on the type of people you have in your network, but, like, I know with my girls, like, you can complain--we can complain to each other. We can vent, but after you're done talking, they're gonna be like, "So what are you doing?" Like, "What are you doing? What are we doing? What are you doing different?" Like, "Are you gonna make a move?" And I think that's where we saw the gap. It's like, "Yes, we want you to vent, we want you to have a safe space," but we also think it is time and there needs to be a space for someone to ask an organization, "What are you doing? "What are you doing to fix it?" "What are you doing to make this better?" "What are you doing to retain these talented people who are exiting, and they all happen to be brown?" You know, just really addressing critical issues and making that information, you know, accessible to them but within reason. Accessible and actionable, you know? 'Cause this is a safe place, and it is an anonymous platform, you know? And that is the key. We want people to feel protected, because they are, and I think a lot of times we don't speak out. And Netta often talks to me about this, like, "People aren't speaking out because they don't feel safe." And so that was very important to us, that this community is our top priority, and, like, that is where we want our goal to be.Zach: So it kind of sounds--again, while keeping people safe, it's like you really got receipts on people. So let's just say, like, if--I don't know, I ain't tryna mess up my sponsorship dollars so I'm not gonna say a company, but let's just say Insert Company Here was like, "We're mad inclusive," and y'all come back with the receipts looking like [haha sfx]. Like, "No, you're not," you know what I'm saying? We got all these people saying there's some issues you need to shape up. But we also talked about the fact that, like, it's not just for airing organizations out. It also can be a place where people are also giving positive feedback and stories, right?Netta: Right.Jacinta: Absolutely.Netta: And overall, we want these companies improved, you know? If they're not doing well, we want to be able to provide them with the solutions to solve that issue. We're not leaving them high and dry, and, you know, I think that's the difference with other platforms or a Glassdoor or a Yelp. ["stupid" sfx plays in the background] We're looking to improve these companies. Jacinta: Mm-hmm. And you want to know where--like, you want to know if some place is a good place for you to go to, and we get--just as many bad reviews as we get we get good ones, and, you know, we get people who are like, "I've had a great experience here. I've been able to grow. I've been developed. I have an amazing mentor. I want more people who are brown and more people of color to come here. I don't want to be the only one." You know? So I want to see them here more and know about the opportunities here. Zach: No, it's really cool, and I do hear your point around, like, you're not just gathering the data just to gather the data. Like, there's a consulting play to it too, right? Where you then say, "Look, this is what people are saying good and bad. Here are our recommendations," and then you're able to actually come alongside them to your point and actually, like, be a partner. And I think it's interesting because there's so many organizations out there, even as we have these group meetings and Slacks and folks are venting and stuff, [and] there really has yet to be one central location where we'll be like, "Mm-mm. Dawg, don't go over there. Mm-mm." You know what I'm saying? But it should be like that. Like, you know, the Lion King remake came out. People want to act like the Lion King remake wasn't fire. I thought it was great, but whatever. So remember, like, when Mufasa was, like, looking over the cliff, right, and he was talking to Simba, and he was like, "Everything the light touches is your kingdom," and Simba was like, "Oh, snap. What about over there?" He said, "That is the elephant graveyard. You don't ever go over there. Relax." That's pretty much like--you know, that's an opportunity for Dipper too, but, like, we don't really have that. We don't have a collective, you know, Pride Land overview of the workplace as it were.Netta: Yeah, and companies--I believe it was last year, McKinsey and Company did a study, and, like, companies are spending more than $8 billion on diversity and inclusion efforts. And we're like, "Who is that benefiting?" Zach: It ain't benefiting nobody. We've still got blackface on company pencils.Jacinta: Exactly. We're not on your board of directors. Few and far between of us are CEOs of the Fortune 500, 1000 companies, and, you know, we get pings--Netta and I get pings all of the time, especially in, like, the VC world, of people saying, "Do you know somebody who could be my chief of operations? Do you know somebody who could be my chief of people?" And we're like, "Absolutely." Like, I will respond to people with a list, LinkedIn profiles connected, you know? Because we feel we are here, we exist, and there just really needs to be this space for us. And there are people also who have done this before us, you know? There are people who may have been peers to my father [kids applause sfx] and they have a lot of insights to share, but they don't have a place to share them, you know? So it's kind of like we can't all go to the conference, we can't all go to the talk, but you could participate in our website and go to ourdipper.com.Netta: Right, and I think companies definitely have this warped perception of that "Okay, well, if we have a few black and brown faces, we've won," you know? "Let's put out the PR," and obviously it's much deeper than that like Jacinta was saying. There's the equity piece. Are we giving people the access and the exposure to not only move up but to have a voice and are able to lead, you know, in their own way? A lot of the times, when we hear about black and brown folks' experiences that are in high-level positions, they're still kind of oppressed, right? They really don't have that power to lead and that confidence. So, you know, those are key data points that we definitely want to bring out and share, again so that these companies are improved.Zach: Man, you said a lot right there, you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to, like, wear out the Flex bomb, so I'ma just give it a little break. [all laugh] And you know--this is the thing, right? There is a--I don't know. I feel like sometimes, you know, these companies, they think they've just done SO much when they put, like, two black people in charge, you know what I'm saying? And we're like, "Yeah, but there's nobody else." And then these two--like you just said, these two black people, like, they're not really doing anything, or you just kind of shuffle 'em out there and they just kind of say some canned message that you wanted them to say. They're not really moving the needle in no kind of way. You talk to 'em and they're looking back at you--you know, they're looking back at you like that blank face on Get Out, you know what I'm saying? You go in for the dap, they grab your fist. You're like, "What happened?" Like, what's going on, you know what I'm saying? So--Jacinta: Or they sometimes don't have the support. They really don't have that support, so they're feeling alone, you know? Even if there's just two, two of you, it's like you may not have that guidance that you need to feel confident to really make those moves that you may want to make, and I think that happens with a lot of people.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. 'Cause I'ma tell you for me, like, you know, I'm in a position--and often times I'm one of the only ones in these spaces, but if I see one--if I see somebody that looks like me but maybe is, like, I don't know, my dad's age, I'm like, "Oh, snap, what's going on?" And they don't say anything back to me or they kind of give me some, you know, guarded response, I go--now, outside I'm smiling, but on the inside I'm like [damn, damn, damn sfx] You know what I'm saying? Just, like, what's going on?Jacinta: Yeah, and that's--and I wonder too, like, how many times are we, in these leadership roles and scared, you know, to--'cause I know I've walked in meetings, and this is me jokingly, like, you know, if there are more than three of us gathered, I'm gonna make an announcement. [laughs]Zach: What you gonna announce?Jacinta: Like, if we're at work and I walk in a meeting and there's three of us, I'm like, "Oh, we're meeting." You know, "This is happening." You know, I'm excited about it, but I do think there's definitely a category of people who are kind of working in fear, but part of that is just--like we were talking about earlier, knowing your voice, feeling confident and being able to use your voice, and that's part of it. Like, you're just at a place where you don't feel like it's safe enough for you to even have a voice.Netta: Right. I mean, I've even had people say to me they've been nervous to connect with, you know, another black or brown person in the workspace because they didn't want others to feel like they were trying to take over, right? So it would be--like, they would do a little silent text, like, "Meet me outside," and I'm like, "What?" You know? And so that happens a lot too. Zach: No, it does, and I think--how much of that, I wonder, is, like, also generational though? 'Cause, like, it gets to a certain point--and what excites me about Dipper and what I'm hearing is it kind of, like, removes the excuse of white gaze, right? Like, I'm not--white GAZE. G-A-Z-E, y'all. Gaze, you know what I'm saying? White gaze. Yeah, so just the idea of, you know, you needing to kind of, like, be performative in some way or hide a part of who you are, right? Because, you know, come on. Like, really? I mean, you know, we was kings and stuff, but I'm saying, like, two of us can't take over an entire Fortune 50 company. Like, come on now. Like, I should be able to have a conversation with you in the elevator without, you know, y'all thinking we plotting the revolution, right? Stokely Carmichael is not in here. Huey P. Newton is not here.Jacinta: I'm also like, "So what if we are?" [all laugh]Zach: I'm saying. I'm looking back at them like [Cardi B hehe sfx], you know what I'm saying?Jacinta: Because some of it is part--you know, what I think I have kind of lived by in the workplace is if I'm exceeding my performance metrics, if I am busting my tail to, like, meet goals, is there really a boundary? I mean, if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, is there a boundary? Now, sometimes there are hurdles for you being able to successfully do what you're doing, and that needs to be addressed, but, you know, I think if you have a team full of people who are brown, but they're the top team in the company, nobody--people see green, you know? And nobody is going to say anything. I think the problem is when there's a board seat available, people see their friends in their immediate network, and those people all look alike, and so it's like, "How do we get into that flow?" And really we have to do it working together, you know? It can't just be the one person. It really is going to take a lot of us working together. 'Cause who's gonna tell you--like, wh's gonna give you the heads up that, like, "Oh, I know that's your salary, but every other president in the company is making five times that." [laughs] You know? Like, you're going to need those types of insights, and sometimes you're not going to know that if you don't have [?]--Netta: [? drive that?].Jacinta: Yeah, exactly. Zach: So let's talk a little about 2020, right? Like, what are y'all most excited about that Dipper is gonna be doing, like, in 2020? Like, what has y'all, like, really going?Jacinta: Mm-hmm. For me, because I love tech and I love data, that's what I think about almost every night, and I think in 2020 our product is really going to evolve. You know, right now we have the ability to go onto our site, write a review, share their experience, and in 2020 it'll be even so much greater and so much more, and that is something that really excites me about what's to come. You know, the more people who are joining our community, the more in-depth we can make that community experience, and the things that we want to do to provide people with insights on, you know, like we said, salary, available jobs, are just really exciting to me, and all of that data and information that people will have at their fingertips just makes me really looking forward to the new year.Zach: So this has been a dope conversation and we appreciate both of y'all being here. Again, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to everything that y'all are doing. Shout-out to Dipper, you know what I'm saying? I really enjoyed this conversation. I've enjoyed the soundbites. Have y'all enjoyed the soundbites? I've enjoyed my own soundbites - have y'all enjoyed the soundbites?Netta: Yes.Jacinta: Absolutely.Zach: Okay, great. You know what we haven't done, you know what I'm saying, we have not really given y'all the respect of, you know, these air horns, so Sound Man, go ahead and put these air horns right HERE. [air horns sfx] You know, it's just a compliment. It's a thing that we do. It's customary, you know what I mean? It's been over--it's almost, like, two years, and we've been playing these air horns for the good guests. Now, we haven't had any bad guests, but I'm just saying, sometimes we play the air horns just a little bit louder, you know what I mean? And y'all are on the louder side, so we appreciate y'all. Before we go, any shout-outs or parting words?Netta: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, thank you so much for having us on this platform. This was awesome. We're really excited about, you know, the partnerships, the meaningful relationships that we're creating, you know, with different organizations, and we're really excited about our full dynamic platform that's gonna be revealed to the world. This is truly gonna be game-changing and helpful for people of color that are really looking to be guided in the right direction.Jacinta: Absolutely, and I mirror that sentiment exactly. We're so thankful for this opportunity and to be able to speak with you and your audience, and, you know, really just shout-out everybody, all of you who have left a review, who have sent us your feedback and cheering us on, patting us on the back, and even those of you that have challenged us--and maybe even shaded us a little bit--you know, it's all fuel.Zach: Big up to our haters one time.Jacinta: [laughs] We love it, yeah. You can't live without 'em, and, you know, it's been an amazing ride, and it's just the beginning, and, you know, we're just incredibly thankful.Zach: Well, first of all, look, we appreciate y'all. And look, y'all, if you're listening to this--I want everybody to stop, okay? If you're in your car, you know what I'm saying, pull over to the side of the road, okay? Put your hazards on and go to ourdipper.com. This is not even an ad. It's just for the love, you know what I mean? Like, y'all didn't pay us nothing, you know what I mean? It's just off the muscle. So go to ourdipper.com. And you go ahead and just scroll down, you know what I mean, and at the bottom what you're gonna see is--it's gonna say "Need advice? Please take a few moments to provide some insights about your current workplace and experience." Now, look, some of y'all know that Kathy in accounting has been getting on your nerves, okay? Some of y'all know y'all ain't been getting that raise that you need, and some of y'all know you're not having a great experience. Take the time. Go on ourdipper.com. Provide the input. You're not only helping yourself, you're helping everybody that looks like you. And maybe some folks that don't look like you, you know what I'm saying? But lift as you climb. Okay, now, look, this has been a dope episode. Y'all know you've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out anywhere on LivingCorporate--we're on all the platforms. iHeartRadio, Spotify, Soundcloud, YouTube, you know, Pandora. What's another streaming--Google Play, you know what I'm saying? We out here is my point. We active, you know what I mean? Jacinta, 'cause you said you were an [fraternity/sorority], right? [all laugh] We active, you know what I'm saying? You know, we ain't just show up on Homecoming Week, you know what I'm saying, giving people problems. Like, we actually--Jacinta: No t-shirt wearing. [laughs]Zach: Exactly. We're not no [?], you know what I'm saying? We earned ours, you know what I'm saying? We went through the [?]. Don't play with us. [both laugh] So the point is, you know, we appreciate y'all. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. If you have any questions you want to email us, you know what I'm saying, livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also just DM us if you have any questions and you want to shout us out. If you want us to shout somebody out for y'all, hit us up. Let's see. Website? Living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, you also could do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We've got all of the livingcorporates, y'all... we don't have livingcorporate.com, though. Not yet. Not yet.Jacinta: Soon come.Zach: Soon come, hey. [both laugh] Let's see here. That's it. You've been listening to Zach, and of course you've been listening to Netta and Jacinta, co-founders and movers and shakers of Dipper and Edge Snatchers. Peace.

Zach sits down with award-winning author and race and gender empowerment expert Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever to talk about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Dr. Avis also shares some advice for black and brown women who are still struggling to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work.Connect with Avis on her website and through social media! Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInCheck out her book, How Exceptional Black Women Lead, on Amazon!Read her piece on NBC BLK! Black Women, Work and the Normalcy of DisrespectTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, every episode we try to bring y'all something special, right? We either have an influencer, an educator, a speaker, an author, you know, a mover, a shaker, you know? And today we're actually blessed to have all of those things and more with our guest, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever. Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever is an Award-Winning Author, International Speaker, Political Commentator, and Race & Gender Empowerment Expert. As a serial entrepreneur, Dr. Avis is the founder of the Washington DC Boutique Consulting Firm, Incite Unlimited, along with The Exceptional Leadership Institute and World Changers Media, LLC. Dr. Avis’ organizations offer leadership, diversity & inclusion, entrepreneurship and media training along with communications strategy development and the implementation of impactful research. Her clients include major corporations, non-profit organizations and governmental entities based both domestically and abroad. So that's everywhere, okay? Now, look, some of y'all probably have already seen Dr. DeWeever 'cause she's had--she's been seen on a variety of platforms, including CNN, Fox News, PBS, C-SPAN, TV One, BET, BBC, NPR, Sirius XM Radio--come on, now--the Washington Post, the Atlantic, Essence, Ebony, and many, many more. She currently serves as a Contributor to The Huffington Post, Black Enterprise and NBC BLK. Now, look here. I gotta get something for that. [Cardi B "ow" sfx]. Okay, now look, Dr. Avis also serves as a member of the Board of Directors of the Voter Participation Center, Women’s Voices. Women’s Vote, and the National Coalition on Black Civic Participation. In addition, she’s the Sr. Public Policy Advisor to the Black Women’s Roundtable, an Affiliated Scholar to the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, and a member of the Closing the Racial Wealth Gap Initiative. But in her most important role, she serves as a mother to two magnificent young men who will one day, undoubtedly, change the world. Dr. DeWeever, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Avis: I am doing [laughs]--I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.Zach: Oh, no, thank you for being here. Now look, I've got all these questions for you, but the first question, which I recognize has to be the question on top of everybody's mind... which one of these sandwiches is better? Is it the Chick-fil-A sandwich or is it the Popeyes sandwich?Avis: [laughs] Okay. Well, you know, everybody was talking about the whole Popeyes thing, so I just had to try it 'cause, you know, I'm just like, "What is all the commotion about?" Zach: Of course, of course.Avis: And I'm not a big Chick-fil-A person either, so--I have to be honest, I've never even tasted Chick-fil-A’s sandwich 'cause I'm not really that much into chicken sandwiches. I don't really get the purpose of putting the chicken in-between two pieces of bread.Zach: [horrified] Oh, no...Avis: I don't know. To me, the Popeyes chicken--okay, unpopular opinion, it was so darn crunchy I didn't really hardly get a taste. All I tasted was the outside.Zach: Oh, the skin.Avis: I try to stay away from fried stuff anyway, so.Zach: Well, good for you for taking care of yourself. You've got to manage your temple. Avis: Exactly.Zach: You know, it's a long-term investment.Avis: You ain't lying there. [both laugh] Hey, listen. If I would've had--if I had the metabolism I had 20 years ago, I'd be all the way in on a chicken sandwich. Since I don't, I'm leaving it alone, right?Zach: [laughs] Hey, I definitely understand. Now, I have yet to try it--well, let me take it a step back. I've yet to try the Popeyes sandwich, but I just--I don't know, man. It's hard. And this is not an ad, you know, and of course Chick-fil-A has their own problematic points of view as well, but I don't know. I just don't know, Doc. I don't know if I can get with that Popeyes. I don't know, but, you know, it's the total experience. Anyway, look, let's--all jokes aside, [both laugh] today we're talking about--we're talking about a few things, 'cause you have so much to offer, right? So we're gonna talk about a few things. We're talking about identity, self-advocacy, and resistance in the context of the workplace. Now, you've written a number of works that encapsulate perspectives and frustrations of black folks, specifically black women. Can you speak a bit about some of the works that you've written and how those challenges don't stop when you get to work?Avis: Absolutely. So I think probably my most significant work in this area is my book, "How Exceptional Black Women Lead," and with that I interviewed over 70 black women across the nation who--and some internationally--who are absolutely extraordinary in what they do, have ascended to amazing levels in terms of leadership success across a variety of different career platforms--or areas I guess is a better way of saying it--and I have to say, still all of them faced the double whammy, the double barrier, of being black and being a woman and having to sort of navigate the intersections of that all along the way to get to where they were, and I think the bottom line is that we all face, no matter where we are, no matter what industry we're in, whether we're corporate, whether we're non-profit, you know, whether we're entrepreneurs, those same--there are different rules that seem to be in play when it comes to us as compared to the other guys, and the bottom line is that we just--we recognize that as the reality, but we cannot let those bumps in the road become road blocks. We have to figure out how to navigate around them, and so what I've found inspiring by speaking with these amazing women is that they found a way to break through those road blocks, to get over those humps and bumps, and still make a way to the top. And if they can do it, other people can do it too.Zach: No, 100%, and it's so interesting too. I think that, you know, it's so easy--well, on my side, 'cause I'm a man, so I participate in patriarchy and male privilege, and I think about the more and more that I talk to--of course my mother as I've just gotten older and just, like, kind of think back about times when I was a child and some of the things she experienced at work, as well as just my black female colleagues. When I talk to them, just the amount of trauma and abuse and disrespect that, like, y'all endure and just casually put up with, right?Avis: Yeah. Oh, God.Zach: Right? And it's--like, every time I meet a black woman at work, she always has at least one extra degree more than I do, right? You know, you and I were having this conversation on Black Women's Equal Pay Day, and it just--there's a pattern here of black women being underpaid and overeducated, overqualified for the roles, and underpromoted, right? Undersponsored. You know, just to the point you're looking at 'em like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know? Just, like, "What's going on?" [both laugh]Avis: Oh, my god. That was perfect. [both laugh] Oh, it's so true. And in fact, you know, actually I wrote a piece for NBC BLK called Black Women and the Normalcy of Disrespect, and it talks exactly about this issue. Everything that you mentioned, plus on top of that the issue of often times having your brilliance basically gentrified by other people in the workplace, right? So doing the hard work, not getting the credit, seeing other people that you basically trained leapfrog over you, it has in many ways become normal, and I think--and that also is related to another fact, that black women are the leading demographic in the nation just to say "Bump this," and start their own businesses, right? Because I think many of us come to the realization that "If my brilliance is not gonna be respected here, why am I giving away my pearls for this? To this?" Right? "Why not cast my pearls in my own favor?" And so a lot of us are making that transition to entrepreneurship because we understand that the work that we do in the workplace often times is disrespected, is not--does not really lead to the same sort of outcomes that other people face, and so because of that we think about, well, we don't want to spend our lives in that situation. Why not see what we can do in terms of turning our intellectual capital into a good--not just for somebody else, but for ourselves.Zach: Amen, Dr. Avis. And look, those little Biblical references, you're not sleeping on me. I heard you. I got one for you too - 'cause sometimes you gotta just, you know, shake the dust from your feet, you know what I mean?Avis: Exactly. [laughs]Zach: So you just gotta make it happen, you know? But no, you're absolutely right, and I think there's also--so I'd love for you and I to talk about this in a separate conversation, but, you know, Living Corporate, what we're really trying to do right now is do some research to talk about and connect the reality of work trauma, work-related trauma, with--like, the mental health impacts of work-related trauma to black and brown folks at work, because there's something that I believe--and again, I don't have a Ph.D, okay? I'm not out here hanging out with Roland Martin like you, Dr. DeWeever, but I do believe--[both laugh]--I do believe that there's some mental--I do believe it impacts your mental health to be the person who's putting all the thought leadership in, but then someone comes in, quote unquote cleans it up, and then they get all of the credit for it, right? I think that that's--that does something to you over time.Avis: It can be traumatic, and dealing with a daily sort of barrage of microaggressions and macroaggressions and not seeing other people sort of stand up and acknowledge what it is and call a thing a thing is also traumatic. I just had a conversation with a client last night who is a tenured professor at a university, went to an event at her university where there was a guest speaker, and apparently the guest speaker--white--used the N-word, and--[record scratch sfx] And she was shocked. She was insulted. And just as much as she was shocked and insulted, she was also hurt that none of her white colleagues said anything. Zach: No, that's terrible. That's terrible.Avis: So in essence she felt betrayed, right? So, you know, it is traumatic. It can be traumatic to continue to suffer those indignities every day, which is basically a coded behavior in our society that says that--that tries to tell us the lie, basically, that we don't belong, that we are not important, that we're not valued, and I think a lot of the work that I do, whether it be through my writing, whether it be through my sort of coaching with women around these issues, is really about saving our souls from that daily assault that we face in the workplace and figuring out strategies to navigate it in a way that maintains our self-dignity and allows us to put ourselves in situations where we do garner respect, whether or not that means navigating those spaces within that environment in a way that changes that dynamic so that you are treated with the respect that you deserve, or in some situations it may mean finding a better environment that is healthier for you, because it does not do you any good to stay in a workplace that is constantly assaulting your dignity. It will impact your health. It will impact your peace of mind. And let me tell you, no check is worth that.Zach: Oh--listen, hold on. Hold on. [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Listen, 'cause--and this is the thing. I think we're in a really interesting intersection of increased awareness--if I'm gonna go by social media, and if I look at, like, the wellness trends today, especially within, like, the black and brown community, we're in an interesting intersection of millennials being more and more prominent in the workplace and mental health being, like, more and more openly discussed, and I think that, you know, we've seen trends now that people--like, my generation will leave. You know, they're talking about "This ain't working?" You know what I'm saying? They'll say, "Well, you know, if you're not gonna be able to work these crazy hours and be treated like this, you're gonna have to find a new job." We'll be like [Shannon Sharpe "that ain't no problem" sfx]--it's not a problem. Like, we will transition, you know? [both laugh]Avis: I would be like, "Deuces!"Zach: Deuces. Like, goodbye.Avis: But you know what? That in and of it self is a good strategy. You know, I think we need to acknowledge the wisdom of that in a couple of different ways. I mean, not only are you saving your soul from those stressors that, as I mentioned, impact your physical health and your mental health, quite frankly your strongest point of negotiation when it comes to salary is when you have a new job opportunity. So moving to that next opportunity and that next opportunity and that next opportunity in a relatively short period of time helps you to be able to exponentially grow your earning power a lot more than individuals often times who choose to spend long periods of time in one place and get stuck and have a hard time moving up that ladder. [cha-ching sfx] So I think often times people talk about millennials in very disparaging ways, and I think in many ways some of those folks need to sit back and watch y'all and learn from what you're doing, because that makes nothing but sense to me.Zach: Oh, listen. If you look at my little LinkedIn--and I'm not leaving a job every couple months, don't get me wrong, but I've zig-zagged. I've got a little positive zig-zag action going on, and you just gotta keep your eyes open, 'cause I'll show up to a whole new job talking about [Kawhi "what it do baby?" sfx] Like, I will leave. Like, I will--boy. Anyway, [both laugh] let's keep it going. You know what? And this is the thing, Dr. DeWeever. You're making me laugh more, so then I'm using more of these sound effects, but that's fine. I appreciate the encouragement. Let's talk about the role that intersectionality plays in the work that you do, right? And so Incite Unlimited, you know, you're a D&I expert--you're a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert. What does it look like to discuss race and gender and engage white women, who may assume that your challenges and lived experiences are either if not the same highly similar?Avis: That's a problem. [both laugh, haha sfx] That's a huge problem. But in all seriousness, honestly, these days, I'm so frustrated with where we are in the D&I space period, DE&I space. I'm frustrated because many companies--and I talk about this a bit in my book--for years now, actually, have made the decision--they've made the calculated decision to preference gender diversity over racial diversity in their efforts and in their focus and programming as it relates to looking at DE&I and how it is lived out in their companies. And as I show in my book, what we've seen--and it's interesting, 'cause this dates back to 2008--we start to see a shift in who gets promoted to leadership positions in corporations, and it's interesting. It's as if there was this collective decision among corporations that "Okay, there's a black president, so black people have made it, so let's stop focusing on black folk." Right?Zach: Yes.Avis: And so what we see, if you look at the data about who actually gets promoted to management positions, is we see an exponential increase in the number of white women who get those positions, and at the same time we've seen a mirrored effect of a decrease in the number of people of color of both genders who get those positions. So now, even though we're in a time right now where corporations are, you know, every time, you know, you see them, any time you hear anything around corporations around this issue of diversity, a lot of them have a good, you know, shtick to sell. All of them know what to say. They always talk about the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion, but when you actually look at the numbers, you actually have corporations that are getting whiter and whiter, even though they tend to tout the language of diversity, but they're just checking that box with white women instead of with people of color. So in many organizations you end up having what I call an organizational apartheid, where the leadership structures now are increasingly white, even though now you have more of those leaders wearing skirts than you did in years past. But you have even more whiteness at the top now than you did, say, 10 years ago.Zach: Listen, I had a--I was on the job, and I was talking to somebody, and they were talking about diverse the group was. And I was like, "The group is all white women." What do you mean "diverse?" Like, diverse in what way? Diverse in, like, that they're all not blonde? Or--like, what is this? And you're 100% right, and I--so look, this is the thing, right? So I am in--I'm actively in corporate America, right? Like, I'm in this space. I work for a large consulting firm. And it's increasingly frustrating, because you're absolutely--I 100% agree with you. I'm looking at the content and I'm looking at the way that things are framed, and they are often framed in very binary terms, right? They're framed in very, like, "men versus women," and it's like, "You're really going--" Like, it's insulting. Like, it's not only just ahistorical, right? It's an intellectually dishonest discussion. Avis: Absolutely.Zach: Right? It's intellectually dishonest, because in 1865, in 1845, all men were not doing the same things, okay?Avis: Absolutely not.Zach: Right? And all women were not doing the same things. And so it's like, "Okay, what does it look like to have an honest conversation about this?" You know, we actually had Lionel Lee, who--he's an inclusion lead for the Zillow Group, and I asked him, I said--like, we're just now getting to talking about black women from time to time, and we've yet to--I haven't really been a part of a lot of programs that explicitly talk about black male experiences, right? And I'm like--and look, I don't even do it and D&I is a large part of my job. I don't even do it because I recognize that I need to use my platform and my privilege to help my sisters, and--not but--and at the same time I'm like, "Dang, why don't we ever talk about the reality and nuanced experience of black men?" Like, yes, we benefit from patriarchy, and yes, we have--we have privileges that black women do not have. We're also seen as a threat at work. We're also often times patronized in a way, and it's a unique--but we don't even talk about that kind of stuff. And you're right--Avis: You're exactly right, and I would say you also suffer wage gaps. Zach: Right.Avis: People talk about wage gaps as if it's just a gender thing. It's not. It's a race and a gender thing. So just as, you know, black women, for example, suffer a double wage gap as compared to white men--which, as you mentioned, we're recording this on Black Women's Equal Pay Day. You know, black men have a pay gap with white men of similar educational backgrounds, and so black men aren't paid fairly either. And then if you look within the women's population, black women suffer a wage gap as compared to white women. Right? So no one really talks about these realities. It's not as simple as just a gender dynamic. You're exactly right. In this nation, race, color, is--no pun intended--everything. Everything. Yet, you know, there is only a sense of urgency around talking about this issue of gender at work and addressing those issues. And, you know, my theory behind that is, you know, it--let's just be real. I mean, this white men who stand at the top of the hierarchy in these spaces have white mothers. They have white wives. They have white daughters. So there is a natural alliance there that they tend to be more sensitive to than they are to black male issues, black female issues, or issues of any people of color. And so, you know, I think it's important that we acknowledge that reality, and until DE&I becomes serious about taking off the blinders and having an honest conversation around--and not just conversation, honest actions around really creating equity at work through both a race and gender lens, it will really be nothing in many ways but a farce in many organizations, where they can do a little something, have a few programs on a few special days, but when it comes to really making [?] change they cower, much like the rest of this culture. It's very hard--I wouldn't say it's hard. The normalcy of white privilege in our society creates a situation where whiteness does not want to take responsibility for its actions. As we're recording this, not only is it Black Women's Equal Pay Day, I'm actually in Hampton right now about to attend [?] activities around the 400th anniversary of the first Africans who came to America. In slave ships. I'll put it like that. And we still--you see what happened when the New York Times published the 1619 piece, where you have all of these supposedly legitimate, quote unquote, voices on the right come out, and they simply deny the reality of the history of this nation. Yeah, so we have a relatively easy time in America at least acknowledging issues of sexism. Like, we don't deny facts when it comes to, like, you know, the history of sexism, right? But to have people act like the reality and the brutality of what slavery was, to call that propaganda, to me, serves as a great example of the level of dysfunction that we are in this nation when it comes to really being honest around the oppressive nature of racism, not just in the past. We can't even cop up to what happened 400 years ago. That really puts a spotlight on why it's so important and why it's so hard for people to cop up to what's happening right here in the here and now.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Had to give you a Flex bomb. You're absolutely right. You're dropping straight facts. Now, look, I want to respect your time, so let's keep going. One topic that Living Corporate has discussed in the past has been respectability politics. Now, I'm a firm believer that respectability still shapes a large amount of the ways that we, as black and brown folks, show up in any space. What has been your experience with respectability politics in the realms that you engage?Avis: Yeah. I mean, that is--it's a big thing. It's a big thing, where people have to make the choice, in many ways, like, how do you navigate situations at work where there are sensitivities around institutionalized racism. Do you sort of call it out at the moment, or do you try to play the game and hope that it will make--you know, things will improve over time? I really think--I personally have a problem with respectability politics, and it may just be that I'm a rebel--[both laugh]--but really, logically I'm thinking, "What are you really gaining when you're sacrificing your soul?" Really, what are you gaining? And then what are you changing, right? What you're doing is you're legitimizing the unfair behavior when you contort yourself in a way in which you have to minimize who you are in order to be accepted. I'll give you a brief example. When I--you know, I've had my locks. I have locks, and I've padlocked my locks now for well over 20 years. I started them when I was in graduate school, well before it became cool, okay? [Cardi B "ow" sfx, both laugh] And so when I started my locks, I remember my mom told me at the time, "Oh, my God. You'll never get a job," you know? But at the time I told her, and it has borne out to be true, that, you know, if someone does not want to hire me because of what's on my head versus what's in my head, then that's some place I don't want to work, right? Because that tells you something about that environment, right? And so to me that's just an example of respectability politics. If I have to change who I am to fit in with you, then I don't need you, boo-boo. I don't need that. You're not the only place on earth. Really.Zach: Absolutely not. [laughs]Avis: And that goes for relationships too, but that's a whole 'nother story.Zach: Oh, my goodness. You're gonna have to come back for that one. You're 100% right though. Okay, so now--[both laugh]--do you believe that respectability has increased or decreased in this era of Trump? And I'm gonna say era of Trump because come on, now. First of all, this is my podcast. I'll say what I want to say. But two, it's the reality of, like, the fact that we live in an era that is, in certain ways--so I'm not one of the people that thinks like, "Oh, it's so much more racist now." America has been racist since its inception. However, or with that being said, there is a certain level or spirit of boldness that is in the atmosphere that is, I would say, unique to this time, but not exclusive to this time. With all of those different exceptions we said at the top, do you believe respectability has increased or decreased in the era of Trump, and what role do you predict it playing for the next generation of black and brown folks at work?Avis: Mm-hmm. I think respectability has decreased in the era of Trump, precisely because of what you previously mentioned. I mean, in this time we are seeing a space where, even though racism has always been around, it's not been new to America, it's been here from the very beginning, we are experiencing a moment where there is greater social acceptability, or at least perceived social acceptability, for overt racist acts, right? And so because of that, people are engaging in more racist actions in broader society, which includes in the workplace, okay? And I think that it's also created sort of a counter-reaction, where people are also becoming more activists in terms of resisting those behaviors. Now, people find different ways to fight back, but I do think that where there is an action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and in this moment, while we're seeing a rise in hate crimes, a rise in hate groups all across the nation, we're also seeing [?] and activism to fight against it. And so if there is, hopefully, a silver lining that we might find behind this moment, it is my hope that what it has done is it has awakened people who maybe had been lulled into a sense of false security under the Obama administration to say, "You know what? We haven't gotten as far as I thought we've gotten. In fact, we're starting to move backwards." And I just can't go along to get along anymore. The time has now come to fight back, and I'm hoping that's what more and more people are doing, and from what I see that seems to be the case.Zach: I 100% agree with you. 'Cause, you know, as an example, Dr. Jones-DeWeever--so I used to kind of, like, take a break--you know, like, let's say, like, in Obama's time, you know, I would walk outside, just take a nice little stroll, but see, now, in the era of Trump, I feel extra black. So I take--I got my menthols, and I just smoke right outside. Maybe I take some Black and Milds. You know, it's nothing, right? I might even put on a durag, because I'm like, you know? You ain't about to stop me.Avis: Put on one black glove.Zach: I put on one black glove as I roll a Newport, okay? [both laugh]Avis: Boy. Man, you'll be scaring folks.Zach: At my desk. While listening to "Strange Fruit" in the background. Listen--[both laugh] I'ma let you go. We're almost done, I promise. Here we go. Your voice is a critical part of everything you do, right? So you're a writer. You're an advocate. You're an activist. You're an educator. You're also a speaker, and you're a political commentator in major mainstream media and independent media. What advice would you give to black and brown women who still struggle to find their voice and advocate for themselves at work?Avis: That is such an excellent question and such an important question, and I think it's first critical--it's interesting. I had a conversation with a client about this today. First of all, you have to realize that you do have a voice. It's there. No one has the right or the ability to take away you, what's inside of you and what's for you, right? And so I think just acknowledging that your voice is there and that your voice has value is the first critical step that every black woman has to take. And then you have to say, "How can I best use this to create better outcomes for me?" Right? It's about speaking up when someone takes your idea and tries to pass it off as their own. It's about making sure that you negotiate when that offer is made to you and you don't just take the first number that's thrown your way, you know? It's about speaking up in that meeting and making sure that your perspective is heard. So it's about not shrinking in those moments, and it's then remembering the powerful being that you are and that you deserve to be there and that, 9 times out of 10, you're probably more qualified than everybody else in that room, so lean into that. And that's the only situation where I would ever use the term "lean in," because I will say that, generally speaking, we all know that black women have been leaning in forever, right? But what I really want us to do is understand our power and to vocalize that power and to not feel ashamed about vocalizing it. And if you do get to a situation where you feel that the environment that you're in does not respect you, does not want your contribution, tries to minimize you or silence you, then I think you should definitely look at other opportunities, because this world is replete with opportunities, other job opportunities and opportunities that you can create independently for yourself. And so lean into the beauty of the brilliance within you, and don't let anyone else convince you that it's not there.Zach: Y'all, let me just go ahead and give some air horns for that real fast. [air horns sfx] 'Cause those were all big facts. My goodness gracious. Okay, look, this has been a great conversation. I've had a wonderful time. I also believe--I'm not trying to impose--I believe you've also had a wonderful time, and--Avis: I have! This has been great. Thank you.Zach: Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Avis: I just want some more sound effects, that's all. I'm just, like, really all about the sound effects.Zach: We're right here. Listen, I got 'em all. Look, me and Aaron--I'll listen to something on YouTube and I'll be like, "Aaron, go ahead and take that and drop it in the Dropbox." He's over here--he'll take them little downloads and put 'em in our little folder like [Cardi B "bratbratbrat" sfx] You know, we got all kinds of content, okay? So we're ready. [both laugh, Cardi B "hehe" sfx]Avis: I love it. [laughs]Zach: All right. Okay, listen, y'all. Thank you so much for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, we're everywhere. I used to say all of the little places that we're at, Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, but I don't do that anymore. I just say "Google us" at this point, you know what I'm saying? 'Cause God has enlarged our territory, okay? We are continuing to expand and grow, okay? And so if you just Google "Living Corporate," you will find us, okay? We're on every streaming platform. You can check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate and look for us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, okay? We're out here. If you want to listen and make sure that you actually can check out all of Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever's books and speaking engagements and where you can contact her more, check out the show notes. We got 'em all right there. Until next time, this has been Zach. You have been listening to Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever, speaker, educator, activist, mother of two, and all-around dope person. Catch y'all later. Peace.

Zach sits down with Cedric Chambers, the founder and CEO of JUMP Recruits, to discuss the definition of the term "diversity" and the concept of diversity of thought. Cedric also offers a few recommendations to CEOs and chief HR officers who want to see their organization become more diverse.Check out JUMP Recruits and connect with Cedric on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and today is another day, another dope interview. Y'all know how we do, okay? So this is not--okay, like, we're coming up on--shoot, actually, let me say this. By the time this episode drops, we might be past 100 episodes, you know what I'm saying? Might have already hit the century mark. In fact, let me go ahead and hit these air horns just--you know, just in case we hit it already by the time this one drops, you know what I'm saying? [air horns sfx] You know, for those who don't know, Living Corporate amplifies the voices of black and brown folks at work. We interview executives, influencers, creatives, movers and shakers, the next folks up. You know, the real ones, you know what I'm saying? Come on. Like, all skin folk ain't kinfolk, okay? That's another podcast from the day. Those who know know what I'm saying. But we interview the real ones, okay? And today is no different with Cedric Chambers. Cedric is dedicated to enhancing the presence of diversity and inclusion in the workplace one client at a time. As the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, Cedric partners with talented professionals and leading employers to diversify and improve the workforce culture within leading industries and growing sectors. Sound Man, you know what? We gotta drop some more air horns for Cedric. Come on, now. [air horns sfx] And I gotta add one of these Cardi B "ow"s, you know what I'm saying? ["ow" sfx] Just because. Cedric, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Cedric: I'm doing wonderful, Zach. Man, you are amazing. That was the best intro I probably ever heard. [both laugh]Zach: Man, I know I gave you a little intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Cedric: Yes. Well, look, to give kind of the full but be quick about it--so I'm originally from Georgia. Not Atlanta, Columbus, Georgia. And so--actually a little small town about two hours southwest of Atlanta. Grew up, played football, went to college, did my undergrad playing football, graduated from Savannah State with a business degree. I did a little work, you know, in the industry for about a year or so, went back and got my master's at THE Ohio State University, majored in labor and human resources, but then immediately after I got my degree I went into corporate America, spending almost 10 years in HR in various areas in a few different industries, including aviation, medical device, life sciences, pharma. You know, I've had the--over that time I've had the pleasure of traveling all over the world, and I've had opportunities to live in a few different places across the Midwest and Northeast of the United States, and so, you know, what I do and the experiences I bring, right, I believe are one of the values that I hold. I have a wonderful family, a beautiful wife of five years and two incredible kids. And as you mentioned, I am the founder and CEO of Jump Recruits, and so just to give a brief, Jump Recruits is a full-service diversity and inclusion technology start-up, and it's dedicated to and about inclusion, opportunity, and successful career outcomes for diverse professionals and employers seeking quality diverse talent. And I've been on this journey for almost three years, actually three years, and like Charles Dickens said, "It's been the best of times, it's been the worst of times," but to be honest, through it all, I wouldn't change anything.Zach: First of all, man, you were talking about I gave one of the best intros. That was one of the best, you know what I'm saying, guest intros. It was just--it was, you know, comprehensive, right? You gave a little bit of the sensitive side with the family tip. You gave some of your vulnerable side on the journey with Jump Recruits, and then you gave a bit of, like, just the history of kind of where you're from and what you did. As a side-note, shout-out to the Georgia boys. I was actually born in Rome, Georgia.Cedric: There you go. Look there, you're country too, man. [laughs]Zach: Oh, listen, with a K. [both laugh]Cedric: And that's the one thing--look, we can talk about it as we get into it, right, but I've been in different environments and, you know, traveling across, and I have a deep Southern dialect, and when I go into different places people immediately, you know, hear that. And so we'll probably get into that a little bit later, but, you know, it's all good, right? Embrace where you come from and just be authentic.Zach: Oh, no doubt, man. And, you know, it's just interesting because for me--just because of my exposure. So I went to--I was in Georgia, and then I went to Dallas, and then I went to Minnesota. So, like, my accent kind of comes and goes, or the drawl of my Southern--like, my Southern drawl kind of will recede or kind of extend during--just depending on the situation, right? But at the same time it don't matter about that part. I tell people all the time. I say, "Listen, don't let this pocket square fool you, okay? I'm very country. Don't play with me." [both laugh] Cedric: I'm with you.Zach: Yeah, man. So look, we're talking today about diversity. It's a super common term, right? And honestly a lot of folks use the term "diversity and inclusion" in a broad swath of ways, right? So, like, for you though, what does diversity mean?Cedric: Yes, great question. So, you know, I would say that, you know, when I think about diversity and the term, right, to me, what I pull from it is uniqueness in every way. You know, whether that be race, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, perspective, et cetera. You know, when I think about diversity, I think about the setting and context in which it's being applied and the term, because diversity can have different meanings in different places depending on where you're applying it, right? And so, you know, I've lived around. And so living in Atlanta, diversity can be different than living in Wisconsin, where I've lived, can be different than living in Boston, where I've lived, can be different than living in Ohio, where I've lived, but that commonality that I think of is uniqueness and what are you bringing that's unique, what are you bringing that is one yourself authentic as I said before, but I always think about that is when we want to use this word "diversity" and think about "Yes, things are different," but in a different way, you know, how are you unique, and how are you bringing that uniqueness, you know, to everything that you're doing?Zach: You know, and it's interesting, right? Because a lot of times when we talk about diversity I think, like you just said, it's, like, uniqueness in every way. In every way, right? Checking a variety of boxes, right? Just what does it look to be non-standard or non-default? And so with that being said, I'm curious, do you have any particular thoughts around the concept of diversity of thought, and have you ever gotten that pushback in your work with Jump Recruits--they'll be like, "Okay, I see you have all of these, you know--" "You know, ethnic diversity is the only diversity. [?]. Diversity of thought." Like, what do you--[both laugh] When you hear that, like, what is your response?Cedric: Oh, man. I'm not gonna make it through this interview. [both laugh]Zach: Nah, I'ma keep it a bean with you. I'ma keep it a bean with you, right? Because when people say "diversity of thought" to me--I don't know how long you've been rocking with the Living Corporate podcast, and I'm actually surprised we didn't get canceled off of this joke, [Cedric laughs] but one time--and I'ma say it again so y'all have the opportunity to cancel me again. I said that white people made diversity of thought in the same lab they made crack. [both laugh] So you know--so now you know the Living Corporate official position, and yes--look, there's nobody y'all can complain to. Y'all listening to the podcast, if y'all got a problem the emails are gonna come to me and Ade, okay? So be mad, all right? Anyway, back to this interview. So Cedric, what your thoughts on diversity of thought, man? [laughs]Cedric: Look, and perspectives, right? You know, I hear a lot of things, and perspective, right, you've got to understand people's perspective, right? And even what you said, like, you know, I can see the perspective, right, and that's the one thing. You've got to come with an open mind and an open heart into situations, but, you know, thinking about diversity of thought--so, you know, unfortunately I have heard "diversity of thought" and have, you know, seen it used as a pushback, and when I hear it it's typically used in the context of either/or, and what I mean is when I'm having these discussions, and, you know, we could be talking about, you know, diversity, we could be talking about ethnicity and these things, and they bring up diversity of thought. They're saying that either I focus on having diversity of race, gender, sexuality, or I focus on having diversity of thought, which is not the way it should be looked at, right? And so it should be viewed as an and, meaning, like, yes, you should value diversity of thought, and then addition value diversity of background," i.e. race, gender, sexuality, et cetera. But so many people take that position of, you know, "I can't value both, and so I'ma go with the safest way out and say I value diversity of thought as a whole," and depending on how long you let those people talk, right, you can get down into the rabbit holes of, you know, the common terms of "I don't see color," X, Y, and Z, right? So, you know, that's a whole podcast by itself. [both laugh] But, you know, when I've encountered it as a pushback, you know, whether it be clients, prospects, or just in general casual conversations, I usually approach it from the perspective of "Hey, look, you're right. Diversity of thought is important and critical to the success of the team, organization, and relationships," but then I always follow up in that discussion with the question of "Well, then how do you acquire diversity of thought?" Because how a person thinks is heavily based on experiences and backgrounds, and if you aren't pulling from different pools and different backgrounds which have different experiences, then how do you achieve this goal of diversity of thought you're ultimately looking for? And I typically at this point get blank stares, [both laugh] which is great for me because now the real conversation can start, and we can start on even ground to say, "Okay, now let's talk through it and work this out."Zach: Man, you know, that's a great answer, and, you know, I'll tell you what I typically say, right? So, for background, right, I'm in change management. Like, I'm a consultant, so, like, I'm having these conversations where people say "diversity of thought," I'll say something like, "Well, you're absolutely right. Diversity of thought is important, and it directly intersects or it is correlated with diversity of race, gender, sexuality, so on and so forth." Those things are not mutually exclusive, right? On the outside they're giving me the blank stares that they give you, but on the inside I know they're doing a [“and I oop” sfx], you know what I'm saying? [both laugh] They trying to figure out like, "Okay, what do I do?" You know what I'm saying? So I definitely get that. So let's do this then. What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard organizations give as to why they don't have black and brown folks in their organizations? I'm talking black and brown disabled people, black and brown LGBTQ people, black and brown immigrants, black and brown--like, just why? Why is that? What are some of the biggest excuses you've heard?Cedric: You know, I'd probably go with the biggest that I've heard, seen, and I think everybody kind of rallies around, but the biggest is that there's an issue with the pipeline and that there isn't enough qualified black and brown talent for those companies to pull from. Which is totally false, right? Zach: Yeah, man.Cedric: And it's like--I'm not gonna go into why do we keep listening to that lie, [both laugh] so--Zach: Well, I think--let me shoot you some bell, right? I think for me it's challenging because it's like--one, I don't think people, like, really examine or really have examined how offensive and insulting that is, right?Cedric: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Like, fam, come on, man. Like, we've been here. Like, so--Cedric: It's like you're doing what you can do, you're pushing out the best, and then someone says, "Well, I still don't see you."Zach: Come on, man.Cedric: And that's where it's coming from. Like, it's like we got so many great, you know, whether it be engineers graduating, you've got so many great doctors, you've got so many great scientists, right? We're doing so many things in the news, and it's still, like, this message of "I still don't see you."Zach: And we're all over here like [what more do you want from me? sfx] [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? Like, God. Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And look, I won't be naive to think that there are as many people of color as there are non-people of color, so I won't bet that, but for instance, like, we know that, for a fact, there are less black and brown engineers that graduate for college every year than their counterparts, and the National Society of Black Engineers have done a lot of great research in this area, and they actually have campaigns going on now to increase that number of black engineers graduating every year, black and brown. But what we also know is that from having these discussions daily with corporate leaders as I do, these same organizations are not going to the places and communities where black and brown people are, and they are not effectively attracting and hiring the great talent that's already in the market today. And if I could provide an illustration for you real quick - look at it like this. If I want to go catch a fish, I can't possibly do that by casting my line on land. I must cast in the water where the fish are, and that's what is happening today. Many companies--not all, and I will say not all, but many are casting in the wrong places, and as I see this conversation over and over and I hear this excuse, the question that I often ask myself or that, you know, we must ask is "Are companies knowingly casting in the wrong places because they don't want black and brown talent, or are they misinformed on where to cast?" And honestly I think it's both.Zach: That's a--hold on, hold on. Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] That's a Flex bomb. Yeah, no, you're right. I think it's both. I don't think it's one or the other, and I think really when you talk about these topics, it's often a case of both/and, right? It's rarely ever one versus the other. Because I've had conversations, and I'm--look, I have a nuanced opinion on this, right? Like, when you talk about sourcing candidates--and so, like, you know, you'll hear organizations say, "We're gonna just recruit at all HBCUs." Okay. Yes, you should definitely recruit at the HBCUs, but there's also black and brown folks at the PWIs too, man. [both laugh] Like, all of the black people--like, man all of the black people are not just flocking to HBCUs. HBCUs are expensive. Like, I love me some HBCUs. Ayo, please, y'all, do not cancel me. We love y'all. PV, I see you. Okay? Prairie View, we see you, okay? Texas Southern, we see you. Cedric: Savannah State. Let's go. [laughs]Zach: Savannah State, we see you. Morehouse. Listen, we love y'all, okay? I'm just saying I went to a PWI, and there were many black and brown folks in my space who did not know what they was doing when they graduated, right? So there's talent there. They're in the same rooms with Becky and Keith and whoever else. Like, it's both, man, and I don't know why, but when I hear, like, "pipeline strategies," I hear--I hear--when we talk about minority talent, ethnic minority talent, it's like we're not even trying to think about how we plug into the PWIs. We just say, "Oh, we're just gonna go with the HBCUs." It's like, "You can do both. You can plug into the HBCUs and then look for and look at the student programs," 'cause every PWI has one, right? Every PWI has some program where the black and brown folks have huddled together to say, "Pick us." [laughs] So, like, you just gotta plug in.Cedric: You know, that's right, and it's--the word I'm going to say, for lack of better terms, is laziness. That's what it is, and it's the--you know, being in corporate, right, I've done HBCUs, I've done the PWI. There is a stark difference between the two as far as the resources and opportunities between the two, where I was in a career fair at, you know, HBCUs to where you're talking 20 to 30 companies, a lot of 'em banks and local banks, a lot of 'em militaries--the military is trying to recruit, but then go to PWI, and, like, you're talking about 200 of the Fortune 500 companies in here vying for spots, right? So the opportunity and resources--and then on top of that, when you engage with HBCUs and HSIs and the communities--and let's say this quickly--it's that it's more than money. That's what happened. It's "Hey, let's go give scholarships. Hey, let's go out and let's see, you know, what we can do from a recruiting effort." It's just transactional the entire time, and when you think about big schools, right, to where--whether it's the PWIs, and you think about some of these big companies. One of the biggest differences--if you want to come to an HBCU or an HSI, I need you to look at this long-term, and I need you to look at this and say, "We're talking about money, but not just money, we're talking about resources," i.e. training and development, and there are many institutions--predominantly white--where large companies are staples on their campuses, teaching them the skills and knowledge needed to be successful, not only today but in the future. I mean, these companies have offices in their career development office, right, and they're talking about data analytics, A.I., machine learning. And these companies even have--some of their senior officers are subject matter experts at these campuses teaching the classes. Zach: Man, they be in there. They be hitting up--they tapping every avenue of that relationship like [Cardi B "brat" sfx]. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? They light that thing up.Cedric: Exactly, exactly. And so when you think about all of those resources, then you turn around and say, "Well, look, let's give a scholarship to somebody," or "Let's go out and let's go to this career fair," and then they don't see you again for another 12 months. It's how d you expect to build that pipeline? How do you expect to build that relationship, that brand and all of the little things that come along with it, if you're not invested? Now, I'ma say this, that's not all, but there's definitely a lot that's [?].Zach: Man, you're 100%. So look, I'm also gonna say something else. Cedric, I don't know, man, what [it is] about this interview, but I just feel like I gotta keep it a buck today. We keep it a buck on Living Corporate generally speaking. Like, don't get me wrong. We be dropping heat on here, okay? Hold on. Wait a second. Shout-out to my team, 'cause, like, we really be doing this, you know what I'm saying? [Kawhi "what it do baby" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here, okay? [both laugh] But this is my biggest thing. This is another personal pain point, right, is like we gotta make sure that when black and brown folks--like, when we go out to these HBCUs and, like, we're doing this stuff, like, we have to also bring this thought leadership and take it to the folks who are in charge, right? So, like, we gotta be talking to the recruitment teams, 'cause a lot of times--I'll say in consulting, right? I'm not gonna say the firm. I've been at a few. So I was at a firm, and, like, there was this common narrative that there was an HBCU that we did not hire for, like, the client-facing stuff. We only hired them for the technical stuff, and the reason was because they don't really have the skill set, right? And, like, we would, like--I'm saying, like, the black folks, like, we would lean into that narrative, like, "Yeah, they don't have the skill set. They're just not really--" And it's like, "Okay, first of all, what are you doing? Like, why would you--don't parrot that out loud." Like, let's figure out ways we can help our people. And then two let's, like, just ask the deeper why and think critically about "Well, why don't we believe they have that skill set, and what can we do to help develop that skill set?" And all of the things that you're talking about are 100% facts, but I think it takes a--it's gonna take a joint effort, right? And I 100% agree with you. So let's do this, 'cause I know we're coming up on time. So multiple whitepapers state that before organizations can seek to diversify their organizations, they should seek to diversify leadership and build an inclusive culture. What's your point of view on that, and what does it practically look like for you to help organizations be more inclusive at the leadership level before you start bringing in, like, the campus level undergrad, direct hire talent?Cedric: Oh, man, great question. I think--let's see if I can get both of these. So when it comes to diversity and inclusion, my perspective and point of view is that they have to have it at the same time, and I think that there are different levels at which they happen at. Like, you could float heavy to inclusion but then still do diversity and recruitment and things of that nature and vice versa, but it depends on the organization in which you're in, the culture and what's going on. And I start with inclusion first just to kind of go into it and say, "Let's think this for a second and say, "How do you build an inclusive culture if you don't have any representation, i.e. diversity, from the groups in which you're aiming to affect?" And so--and without this representation, this means that there's nobody from these groups that are able to input on the design of this diversity and inclusion strategy. And so when you talk about this inclusive culture, you have less than 1% of [?] in the organization, you know, less than 20%, you know, women in your organization, how are you gonna go and effectively--and on a leadership level it's definitely not there--how are you gonna go in and actually do this if the representation is not there? And so when you think about diversity, you gotta "Okay, are we bringing leadership in at the same of building that inclusive culture and doing those things at the top and then pushing it down?" As it relates to leadership, look, I would agree, but it goes back to representation, right? How can you effectively have a diversity and inclusion strategy driven from the top down when the top has no representation from the diverse groups in which you're designing for? And so I also say this. We surveyed candidates that had been hired and had received offers from companies. 87% of those candidates that we surveyed say that one of the first things they do when researching the company they're interviewing with is go to the leadership page and see who on the page looks like them. And then--Zach: Keep going, keep going. Preach.Cedric: And of that, 60% of that group say that that was a major factor on whether they accepted the job or not. And if you'll allow me to go just a step further, one of the things we do in our consulting area looks at, like, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, and when you think about the top of that pyramid, and we get to self-actualization, the definition of self-actualization is "the realization of one's full potential." So let's think about this. How can I realize my full potential within an organization when I go to the corporate leadership page and I see no one that looks like me? And then how can that help me see myself as rising my career aspirations when I can't see myself on the website, I can't see myself in leadership, you know? I didn't see myself in the interview process with the people that I interviewed with. How can I actually see myself thriving in this organization? I can't.Zach: [straight up sfx, both laugh] No, you can't. Cedric, man, it's so funny. So what I've been doing--'cause I'm coming up on 30, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Whatever.Cedric: Big time.Zach: Man, listen. It's different, man. Things creaking now, you know what I'm saying? Knees be sore for no reason. It's weird.Cedric: I know. It starts raining and your knee hurts, right?Zach: Right. It's like, "What's going on?" Cedric: Yeah, it's coming. It's coming.Zach: [both laugh] But you're 100% right. Like, lately when I do--like, when I interview, right, when I have the opportunity and people reach out, whatever, I'll always ask, like, "How imperative is your inclusion and diversity strategy at your organization?" They'll say, "Oh, it's very imperative. It's super important. Blah blah blah blah," and I'm like, "Okay, cool." So then I go, you know what I'm saying, I go to the little executive page, right, and, you know, the board looks like--you know, the first, you know, seven, eight presidents like [haha sfx]. I'm like, "Come on, man. Y'all not seeing this, man? This is crazy. This looks like a bunch of dollar bills up here." Like, this is crazy.Cedric: [laughs] Exactly, but that's representation, and so that's diversity, you know, from a recruitment aspect, adding them to the mix, and then inclusion is working on the other hand, trying to make it work. And so you're trying to do both, right? It's almost like--you know, in some cases, right--I mean, I'm from the country, right? And so there's certain cases and certain things where you need to mix and you need to pour stuff in at the same time to get that evenly distributed, and that's the diversity, right, man? You pour the diversity in while you're stirring the inclusion, and you're doing it at the same time, with both hands, because you need for it to evenly get into the mix so that when you look at the cake mix and batter it's something that you can go in and move forward with, right? It's not clumped up. It's not over here. It's not--I'm not gonna say segregated or whatever the case may be, right? You know, things are mixed in together, but they still have their identity, man. So it's--you know, it's interesting.Zach: Let me go ahead and saute on that metaphor, that analogy you got right there. So it's interesting, because even when you make a cake--'cause honestly I thought you were gonna go with, like, a sweet tea analogy, but either way, with sweet tea or cake, right, you gotta make sure you add heat to that jaunt so that way it actually, like, actually comes together, because--and even though that heat might be uncomfortable or may seem uncomfortable, you've got to put on some gloves or whatever and you've got to put it in the oven. You've got to wait, but it's gonna all congeal for the cake--or you gotta turn up the dial on the stove to make sure it gets hot enough so everything can come together, so it can actually merge into one thing that you can actually consume, that you can actually enjoy. It's the same thing, man. In that mixing process, you've got to add some heat to that. That heat might be, you know, accountable conversations, you know? True planning around how we're actually gonna make all this happen, how we're gonna mobilize our inclusion strategy, what does it mean to, like, really build a culture of sponsorship for your organization, and then that creates that culture that you're talking about.Cedric: There you go, there you go. I'm with it. I'm with it. [laughs]Zach: Now, look, let me respect your time. I got one more question for you.Cedric: Go for it, man. I'm here.Zach: What recommendations would give to the average white executive/power holder who wants their organization to be more diverse but isn't getting the talent they're looking for--they're not seeing the talent, you know, at the executive level?Cedric: Oh, man. That's a loaded question. You said white executive/power holder. [both laugh] I'll say this, and I'll say this for all senior executives, not just white--and I'ma primarily speak to CEOs and chief HR officers on this one--look, if you've decided that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the success of your organization, then I think you need to take this approach. First, go out and hire you a chief diversity officer. That's step one. Step two: for the first five to seven years on this journey, that chief diversity officer needs to report directly to the CEO. Not HR, not strategy, not social responsibility or impact. Have them reporting directly to the CEO. This not only will have a visual impact, but it will solidify that just like finance, just like strategy, just like engineering, just like HR, that diversity and inclusion is imperative to the business and it has a direct line to the highest of the high. And I believe it was Steve Jobs that said this, and he said it in the context of design. It's that "If a part of your business is so important to the CEO, it must report to the CEO," because then only can that organization place the same importance on it as the CEO does, and so you're going out and you're saying, "Hey, we believe in diversity," but then the diversity officer is four layers down in the organization [train?] and doesn't have any say-so, power, or ability to go make things happen. But now when that person reports directly to the CEO, and we're talking top-down--they say, "Hey, this is the move, and this is where we're going," and that person is right there, direct communication can get things signed off, accomplished, done quick. That puts you in a better position to be able to accomplish that goal.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, it's interesting because I think that kind of transitions--that transitions that D&I space from being just, like, another thing that's, like, in the compliance piece into something that becomes, like, a strategy imperative for the enterprise, right? A lot of times when we think about diversity we're just thinking about ways to avoid, you know, this sound, right? [Law and Order sfx] You know, just trying to make sure you don't get in trouble, you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Cedric: Oh, man. And also, look--so I was in HR, right? In every organization that I supported, you got the business leader, you got the HR person, you got the finance person, you got quality, you got engineers, but they're in that organization. And so HR is in every organization. Finance is in every organization, right? And so diversity is in every organization. The same way you look at diversity of people, you should be looking at diversity of suppliers. The same way you're looking at diversity of marketing, the way you're looking at diversity and how you're looking at your strategy, where you're going--like, diversity is embedded in every one of those, and if it doesn't have that same vertical as the strategy/HR/finance organization, then how can it have the horizontal piece to where it cuts across all to be able to have that impact and show up in the every day workings and doings of how people act and how they work and how they do their jobs?Zach: No, 100%, man. You know what? You've been dropping bar-bar-bars, man. Like, just [Mario coin sfx x2]. You know what I'm saying?Cedric: [laughs] I love it, man. I love it.Zach: Man, I love it. Now, this has been a dope conversation. Before we go, do you have any shout-outs or parting words?Cedric: Oh, man. Look, I would say one, you know, shout-out to Jump Recruits, right? You can go find more information at JumpRecruits.com. Look, you know, the team, shout-out to my family and my wife, and look, I would say shout-out to all of the leaders, the employees, the janitors, whoever it may be that's out there actively pushing diversity, out there actively pushing inclusion, whether it be in your small circle and you're influencing those around you or whether it's at a large, large scale. Congrats, and I thank you, and I ask you to continue, to continue to push and continue to be--you don't have to be an activist, but you do have to be active. And so, look, continue to do great things, and I just--I love it.Zach: Wow, man. Yo, shout-out--man, round of applause, man, for Cedric, man. [applause sfx] My goodness gracious, man. This has been great, man. Thank you, and thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com, please say the dash, you know what I'm saying? Look, we've got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate. all of 'em except livingcorporate.com, Cedric, believe it or not, 'cause Australia's still got livingcorporate.com, and I'm like, "Man." So I don't know what we gotta do--Cedric: All of that. We're coming to talk to you, Australia. We're gonna have a conversation. 20/20. We need that. We need that.Zach: We need that. We need that. Look, man, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Cedric Chambers, CEO and founder of Jump Recruits. Peace.

Zach speaks with Jennifer Brown, founder and CEO of Jennifer Brown Consulting, and they take a deep dive into exploring what diversity and inclusion means. They also talk about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and Jennifer shares a bit about her latest two books. Check out Jennifer's books! They're titled "Inclusion" and "How to Be an Inclusive Leader."Connect with Jennifer on the following platforms: Twitter, IG, Facebook, LinkedInPut your name on the mailing list at JenniferBrownSpeaks.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know what we do, man. [laughs] Y'all know. Listen, man, we try to drop--come on, Sound Man. Give me them air horns right here. [air horns sfx]. More fire for your head top, and look, today is no different. I ain't even gonna get into a huge, long kind of, like, intro before I get into the interview, 'cause our interview was kind of long, but I really want y'all to hear all of it. I interviewed someone who is a strong--seriously, like, one of the leaders within the D&I space when you talk about, like, presenting content around intersectionality, diversity, inclusion. Her name is Jennifer Brown. She's a facilitator. She's a public speaker. She's a consultant. She's an educator. She has a background in change management, so there's a lot of symbiosis between the both of us, and we had a really dope discussion just about what it really means to be inclusive as a leader, and then we had a conversation--like, kind of a meta discussion about the D&I space as an industry. If y'all remember--this was, like, way back in Season 1--we had Amy C. Waninger, and then we had Drew, A.K.A. Very White Guy, on the show, and Drew talked a little bit about the--, like, D&I as a business, right, and kind of, like, the capitalistic or corporate nature of D&I and, like, what that looks like, and we had a conversation about that too. It was really interesting. So anyway, what you're gonna hear next is the discussion between Jennifer Brown and myself. She's great people, definitely can't wait to have her back on the show. Make sure y'all check out the show notes. You can look and see all of her information, including her latest two books, okay? So make sure y'all check it out, and we'll catch y'all next time. Peace.[pause]Zach: Jennifer, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Jennifer: Oh, thanks. I'm doing great. Trying to stay cool in this July.Zach: Man, it is hot out here.Jennifer: Yeah. Global warming. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] For real. Look, I gave a brief intro, but for those who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Jennifer: Of course, yeah. I--let's see. I'm an author. I'm a keynoter. I'm a CEO and an owner of a consulting business, all of which is focused on building more inclusive workplaces for all kinds of talent to thrive, and it's a passionate, personal mission that I have because I've been out since I was 22, and I'm in my 40s now, but the workplace was a place where I couldn't really bring my full self to work. And I want to say it wasn't just being LGBTQ. I mean, the workplace has all sorts of inclusiveness problems when it comes to people like, you know, us, and, you know, most people actually. Anyone that's not a certain mold, and so as somebody who has--I have a master's degree in opera, believe it or not. I came to New York to be an opera singer, and that did not work out.Zach: Wow.Jennifer: Yeah, I know. [laughs] It's crazy. Luckily I reinvented as a corporate trainer, because it's all this--it's like being on the stage, you know, and connecting with audiences. It's just the topic is different. So I reinvented into that field, which remains really my field to this day. So we're really--we're a strategy and training company, and we're working across the Fortune 1,000, I would say, on a daily basis. My team is all over the country. They're amazing. They're so talented at what they do. They have a lot more patience for client work than I do. [laughs] And yeah, we can talk about that if you want, but I've been a consultant in the trenches for a long time, and I'm actually really thrilled now to kind of be more living the keynote and author life. I just--I like it a lot. I love performing. I love big audiences. I like the challenge of thinking on my feet. I like having to write books on this topic and figure out, like, "What does the world need me to write next, and how do I take what I hear and learn and put it in a way that's digestible for people?" Because it's really--it's kind of, like, a life-or-death situation from an inclusion perspective, and I deeply feel that, for myself and many, many others.Zach: Wow. Well, thank you for that. Awesome. I'm already--like, my shoulders are kind of bouncing up and down. This is gonna be a dope conversation.Jennifer: Woo! Yeah. [both laugh]Zach: So today we're talking about inclusive leadership, and before we get too deep into it, can we get some definitions on these terms? Like, from your point of view. Diversity, inclusion, and intersectionality. 'Cause in a lot--in your content and in your IP, both written and your presentations, like, you use these terms a lot, and frankly your content is centered around these terms. For our audience, I'd love it if we could just, like, level-set what these things actually mean.Jennifer: Yes, and you need to consider the history of the conversation. So in the corporate and workplace context, diversity is really--has been traditionally the "who," right? The demographics, the representation in your workforce. Typically it's [counted with?] gender, right? Which is where it started, and race and ethnicity. It wants to count LGBTQ and people with disabilities, but, you know, a lot of those folks can hide who they are, right? We are very good at hiding who we are and not checking boxes. So diversity has really been that representation, the mix, the complexion of the workplace [with a small C?]. And then inclusion really is the "how." So "How do I make that mix work?" You know? "If diversity is the "who" in the mix, how do I make the mix work?" To quote my friend Tyrone Studemeyer, who is, like, a great chief diversity officer. He always uses that example. In fact, he brings a glass of milk on stage and pours in chocolate sauce, and then he stirs it, and he has this bit that he does. So it's making the mix work, and honestly's that's really where behaviors come into play. And so it's how--once you have that talent around the table, how do you make them want to stay? How do you include them, and how do you make them feel that they're valued? And so inclusion is the how and the behaviors. And then intersectionality, something totally different. It is the mix, I guess, of diverse identities that make some of us who we are and kind of present unique challenges. Traditionally defined by Kimberle Crenshaw, of course, it's the mix of multiple stigmatized identities that one person may carry. So why that's important is that I think, you know, anyone who looks at gender issues, for example, as a white women's topic, is not taking into consideration how women of color are impacted differently, how being an LGBTQ woman may mean that you're not only dealing with your gender and all the headwinds that come along with that, but you're dealing with the headwinds relating to sexual orientation. Or say you have, you know, a non-binary gender expression, or you are a woman of color and some of those things at the same time, or a woman with a disability. So it just goes on and on, and that's a very helpful thing for the rest of the world, I think, to help people understand the levels of--and I would use privilege with a small P. I know that word sets some people off, you know, but I think we have to be realistic about some of us walking through the world feeling a lot safer and a lot more protected, a lot more supported. You know, right? Like, a lot more--that others are more comfortable with us because they're relatively more familiar with us, and the sort of further you get away from I guess the straight white male norm that is, like it or not, the whole of the top leadership in the business world. The further you get from that, I think the more difficulty you have in kind of seeing yourself in workplaces, in being supported, grown, invested in, welcomed, proactively fostered. You know, all of the things that really, like, pull you up in an organization. So, you know, when you're different in multiple ways, it's kind of difficult to ever feel that you're in that--in the place you should be in the machine that is the workplace. So, you know, this is where people fall out. They quit. They can't stand it anymore. [laughs] You know, they go and become entrepreneurs, which is great, you know, but sad for corporations and large employers because, of course, you know, you're bleeding out all of your diverse talent because your culture is sort of something that people can't stand. That's a problem. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] No, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting, right, because I was just having a conversation with a couple of close friends this morning, and I was talking about the fact that a lot of times, you know, when we talk about D&I in the most common contexts, it almost feels like some--like, really a competition between white men and [white women] for number one, and then kind of everybody else falls to the wayside. Right? Like, we don't necessarily have, like--I don't know if I'm necessarily always hearing, like, truly intersectional discussions around identity. I don't know, and I don't know if black women are often centered in those discussions. Of course in the past couple years we've seen, like, more and more content come out about it, so don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a debbie downer, but at the same time--Jennifer: [laughs] But you're right.Zach: [laughs] I mean, here's a great example, right? So I think it was--yep, Indeed. So Indeed just dropped a commercial, and there was a--the setting was, like, a board room, right, and in the board room, a white man was in the front and he was getting a promotion, right? And, like, the boss was shaking his hand, and everybody was clapping, and then there was a white woman, and she was just kind of standing there, and it was clearly--like, by the framing, right, of the commercial, that she was passed over for this promotion and that the white man got the promotion over her, right? And I was like, "Okay." And so then she looks down at her phone, and she kind of smirks because she gets a notification she's getting an interview, you know, somewhere else, right?Jennifer: [laughs] Oh, my gosh.Zach: Right? So she's like, "I'm leaving," and then it said, "Indeed." You know? I was like, "Okay, cool." So great commercial, but what's interesting about that commercial was behind the white woman--and I don't believe they did this intentionally, but maybe they did--and if they did, yo, they are super cold--but there was a black woman and a black man out of focus right behind them. And so it was, like, super interesting.Jennifer: [sighs] Oh, goodness. Wow. Oh, somebody needs to give that feedback. I'm sure they've heard about it already. [both laugh]Zach: But, like, the idea that a lot of times we talk about D&I, right, it's often centered around gender. We're not having really authentic discussions outside of that. And so a question for you - you know, in your book "Inclusion: Diversity, the New Workplace & the Will to Change," you discussed the nuances of privilege. And you just talked about lower-case privilege, lower-case P privilege. And to make an effort not to vilify white men who have, quote, "seemingly won the privilege lottery." Is it possible to manage the egos of leaders who are in the majority while also having frank and accountable discussions about empowering black and brown professionals or just non-white professionals in the workplace? You know, in your work, what does that process look like? To establish trust for those discussions.Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, that is really the work, and it's--I think it's, like, the third rail, honestly. It's funny - being in the LGBTQ community, there's a level of--strangely, a level of comfort and acceptance of talking about being "I'm a proud ally," you know, or putting that rainbow sticker on your desk or in your email signature. And it's fascinating to me because--by the way, the LGBTQ conversation is also not properly intersectional, right? So there's privileged dynamics playing out in my--this community. I was going to say "my" community. One of my communities, you know, that women's voices aren't well-heard. People of color and the LGBTQ community, trans people, are not well-heard and are not represented in leadership positions in the workplace when it comes to affinity groups and things. So each community has its kind of diversity within its diversity challenges. [laughs] So I just wanted to make that point, because--I often say, "Just because you carry a marginalized identity, or even two, does not make you an inclusive leader."Zach: That's so true.Jennifer: Like, I wish it were true, but it's not, and it's been proven to me over and over again that, you know, I've made that assumption, and I've kind of been wrong. Like, I've been shocked by what people say. So, like, these--like, a lack of that intersectional lens and that inclusive lens can live in all of us, by the way. Elitism and, you know, that blindness and bias. Unchecked. Anyway, that's one point I wanted to make. So how do we center more black and brown voices when the leadership of so many companies--and when you say they are the majority, we always have to clarify. I say majority in leadership positions, because if you look at the aggregate in most companies, of course, women are the majority. Zach: That's absolutely correct, yeah.Jennifer: Right, and then a lot of ethnic diversity lives in different functional areas of the business and, you know, whatever, right? But it just totally thins out, like, when you go up the org chart, right? So the problem is all the power lies with a sort of very homogeneous group, and so the onus is on that group to acknowledge that the world is more and more black and brown, right? That they have to build that confidence and cross those bridges of understanding, and they have to know how to build trust with their workforce. Both current and future, by the way, which is most likely not going to look like them. And then they've got to do it in such a way that they--that then their employee and their leadership base looks like the world that they serve, which is increasingly female, right? Think about the buying decisions. Think about the exploding buying power of the black community. The LGBTQ community is now a trillion-dollar buying power. I mean, it's massive. So any brand that's worth anything, and any leader that's worth anything, must look at this, should look at this, and say, you know, "My demographic group--maybe it was okay for me not to understand what keeps people in the organization I'm a part of or keeps people on my team or how to be a good colleague and sort of step out of my shoes and think about what the other person's experience is like, but I better search and pay attention to this." So my argument is always I throw the business case to people, the demographic argument to people. Sometimes it's a moral argument. Sometimes somebody, you know, has kids of a different race than they are. Sometimes they have lots of daughters. Like, sometimes, you know, they have a unique view on all of this, and so when you, you know, [see?] somebody that looks like a white, straight guy, you know, you just never know what their diversity story might be, and I've been just shocked and reminded that, you know, I can--I can walk in a room and people assume I know nothing about this topic, you know? And that's happened to me. I've been on the receiving end of that. And there are things I don't know, for sure, but I desperately want people to listen to me and somehow kind of wedge my way in and make them listen and convince them and all of those things. So being LGBTQ helps with that. So I'm this interesting hybrid of, you know, being of an identity that people are more comfortable with, like, based on maybe what they see, but then coming out and challenging them to the point where, like, you can hear a pin drop when I do that, and that's kind of--let me tell you, it's pretty uncomfortable when you're standing there in front of, like, 1,000 mostly men in, like, light blue shirts and khakis. You're like, "How is this gonna go?" [laughs] So it takes--for all of us, you know, I think it takes bravery to show ourselves. For some of us with invisible aspects of diversity, it takes kind of a unique kind of bravery to be like, "No." Like, "Make no mistake, this is actually who I am." And particularly if it's a vulnerable aspect of who you are. It can feel really risky. That could include, like, divulging about a disability or, you know, mental health and addiction issues, or age, you know? There's just this, like, widespread hesitation to bring our full selves to work on so many counts, but when you are black and brown of course the issue can be "I can't opt not to show who I am." Like, "Who I am is often visible," and it will trigger the biases if those are there, right? And so it's a conversation we always have about--it's not the pain Olympics, and that's so important to remember. Like, that it's not--it's not a race to the--through the oppression hierarchy to say--Zach: Right.Jennifer: Right? Because that's a useless conversation. I think we have to think about, like, what are the--what's the damage that happens when, you know, we feel shame, or we feel compelled to downplay who we are, even if it's very visible to others? And how can we support each other's voices and create that safety for each other? And that's what I think about every day. Like, if I have been given some kind of privilege with a small P [in] several ways that has been totally unearned by me--my obsession is, like, what responsibility and opportunity does that come with? Which is interesting, because I'm in the LGBTQ community, which is so used to needing that allyship, right? We think about--we struggle to bring our full selves and be comfortable, and we hide, you know? And so allies really bring us out, you know? They stand alongside us and say, "Hey, I'll tell your story. I'll be next to you. I'll have your back." It feels amazing to have that, and I know what that feeling feels like, and so I am turning around and, like, trying to do that for others with my people, which often is my lovely, often good-hearted, you know, white, straight male executive clients, you know, to say, "How can we help you bridge to the future?" Because opting out is not--that's not an option, you know? I think--and the more clued-in ones know this, and I think people are mostly feeling just, like, really--like, wanting to do more, very awkward, very afraid. I know in the light of MeToo, just purely a gender conversation, the--you know, that lean-in research that came out a couple months ago that says that, like, male leaders are, like, even more afraid now to be in these one-on-one scenarios with female mentees or colleagues, and it's really discouraging, and it's definitely going in the wrong direction, but I think that fear is probably bigger than just cross-gender. I think that it's just kind of any moves you might make to say, "Hey, I want to be an inclusive leader. I'm gonna mess up. I'm gonna say the right thing. I really, really want to be better, but how am I gonna learn this thing that I'm gonna get wrong, and where am I gonna learn it? And how am I gonna know that I'm getting it wrong? And then how am I going to be given a chance to develop better skills?" And that's a very legitimate question. So I think we've got to all kind of give each other a lot of berth and also proactive support these days to learn, and we've got to do that in partnership with each other, because otherwise we're learning in a vacuum, and that's hard to do.Zach: It's so complex though, right? Because it's like--like, there has to be space for grace, and then there also has to--like, on both sides, because there's grace for you to learn--there's grace for me to give you space to learn, but then there's also--there has to be humility for you to receive that learning, right? And then there needs to be empathy on the person who is learning for their teacher in that there is a level of emotional labor, right, that goes into me even talking to you about this at all, right? I had a conversation with some colleagues, like, about a month or so ago, and I was like, "Look." Like, something happened, and, you know, it was an educational discussion, and in part of my conversation I said, "Hey, you know, I don't talk about this because it's exhausting." I said, "But being in these majority-white spaces--just me being here is exhausting," and I explained that to them, and I said, "It's not just me. It's exhausting in some way or form or shape for someone in a minority to engage in majority spaces." Like, it is, and so, like, for the people that are doing the work to educate and train and teach or even partner--like, that's--like, there needs to be some empathy on that part, you know what I mean?Jennifer: Yeah. Well, we talk a lot about compassion fatigue, and I think that--and then us being asked to step forward and represent an entire community and their experience, which you and I know is never gonna be accurate. You're just one person talking about your experience. Zach: Right. Not [?], right.Jennifer: Right, but what you're talking about is something--what I say in my next book, right, "How to Be an Inclusive Leader," is that you need to do 80% of the emotional labor yourself before you ask someone to help you on your journey. Zach: Oh, I love that.Jennifer: It's so important, yes. And so for me, what that looks like is I intentionally consume certain media, for example. I listen to certain podcasts. I watch certain films. I acquaint myself with cultural norms across communities that are not mine, right? And in some cases it's a struggle through some of that media, because that media is not built for you. It's not a conversation for you, right? [both laugh] And I've had white friends, and I talk about, like, a podcast we may love. Like, one I love called "Still Processing." I don't know if you know it.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. "Still Processing" is fire. Shout-out to y'all, yes.Jennifer: Oh, it's so good. So good. And they're queer too. Like, I just love them. I mean, talk about intersectional. They're brilliant. And anyway, I sometimes have a hard time keeping up with it, but also getting all of the cultural references--and sometimes even I will feel, "Gosh, I'm such an outsider, and this is so uncomfortable for me, to try to hang in with the conversation." And then I say to myself--and this is what I say to leaders--"Notice the discomfort, because this is what other people feel every single day in majority-white spaces." Every day of their lives, right? Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, you're uncomfortable for one second, right? Like, get used to it. Like, you should be putting yourself in this discomfort all of the time, because this is the competency. Like, this is the skill that you need to learn so that you get some iota of empathy for what it feels like every single day for other people. The other thing I wanted to say is we just had an LGBTQ--we called it LBTQ. It was just for women actually, so we dropped the G. [laughs] Which was--you know, people can have issues with it, but we dropped the G. It was just meant for Q-identified women. And we had this big conference, and we asked--we had a TON of diversity on the stage, which was my commitment, and we had a couple activists that were trans women of color, and they said, "I will come, but I want you to know, like, Pride is exhausting for me." It was in June. "It's exhausting for me. It's exhausting for me to walk into corporate spaces, to educate, to be that voice on stage, and I'm sort of doing this, but I want you to know it's, like, a lot of labor for me," and I want I guess for all of us that put panels together, for all of us that are speakers and on panels--it was such a learning for me to understand that when you ask someone, you're trying to be inclusive, but it is so seen through this lens of "Oh, I can take the day and go speak at this conference 'cause I work for myself," or, you know, "I'm an activist or an advocate." Like, an activist doesn't always look the same or have the same level of privilege or income. What is the lost income from taking a day out to go into a space you're not comfortable in and educate people about your experience? Like, it was really humbling. And what we ended up doing, by the way--and this may be helpful advice--is for all the speakers, that day we had 30 speakers, we really want to intend that we take up--we have a stipend and honorarium for people who take the time out to come into that space. There's a question of real money, you know, to offset that time and that labor. And again, this was another kind of learning for a lot of privileged people of the privilege that allows them to come in and speak all of the time on things that have a full-time job, you know, that have benefits, you know, that aren't witnessing, you know, the really, really painful reality of certain parts of our community every day. I just thought it was a really interesting demonstration within a marginalized community of sort of the gulf in our experiences, right, even within LBTQ women. So I think being mindful of intersectionality all of the time, it's incumbent--it's incumbent on anybody who has that platform, that voice, that comfort to whatever degree, to ensure spaces are diverse, to ensure voices are elevated, to center stories that aren't our own, and to make sure that those stories are given the proper platform and that people aren't overly requested to give up their time and education. But that means that each white person, each man, you know, when they support gender equality, I would ask, like, "What are you reading? What research do you have under your belt?" Like, "How are you exercising your muscle to show up in allyship, and what are you doing?" And then, and only then, can you ask for tweaks and feedback from people in affected communities. You know, "Did what I say resonate?" "Did the story--did I do this justice?" "Did I use my voice in the right way?" "What more could I have done?" Like, "What feedback would you have for me?" That can be asked, but so much has to be done and earned before that. And then--you know, and then bring somebody in to give you that feedback and make you better, because, you know, without that feedback I can promise you people aren't gonna get better, and they're just gonna keep stumbling, and stumbling is not good for anyone. [laughs] It's humiliating.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. [laughs] The thing about it is there's nothing--so I think the only thing worse than being loud and wrong is being really polished and wrong, right?Jennifer: Ooh, that's interesting.Zach: Right? It's like, you know, you're talking, you got the presentation, and, you know, you got your little clicker, and you got your three points and your--[both laugh] And your pantsuit looks great, but you are wrong.Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. It's in the corporate speak.Zach: Right, it's in the corporate speak, but--Jennifer: People can see through it.Zach: But you're absolutely wrong. And your earlier point about Pride, yeah, and, like, this past year was so big because it was the 50th anniversary of Stonewall, and it's interesting 'cause you talked about--you were talking just a bit about, like, the dissonance there and, like, the emotional labor for everyone who is a minority, but then specifically we're talking about trans activists, and it was so interesting because--I believe it was on the 30th. Like, right at the end of Pride there was a situation at Stonewall Inn where, you know, there was a desire from a trans women to speak up. She wanted to talk a little bit about the day and just reflect, and she was shouted down.Jennifer: No.Zach: Yeah, by gay men who were there in names of, "Hey, we just want to party. We don't want to hear all of that," and then eventually she was able to speak, and she spoke for about 12 minutes, but it was just really interesting. She read the names of the black trans women who died and facts and the disproportionate abuse and oppression that black trans women have and continue to face, and so you're absolutely right. Like, and I think it's incredible. I have yet to have the privilege to directly interview a black trans activist. Like, that's actually a serious [goal] of mine.Jennifer: I can hook you up.Zach: Well, let's do it. Let's talk about that after the interview. For sure.Jennifer: [laughs] Yeah, for sure. So yeah, it's been such a learning for me. And this is why I feel so--the ally energy in me these days, even in the LGBTQ community technically that I'm in, I feel so activated as an--and I don't even want to say, like, "I am an ally," because we're only allies when others give us that--give us that name and that honor, right? But I'll tell you, whether it's me as a cis woman--you know, I spend my time on the keynote stage asking people in the audience, "How many of you know what I mean by sharing our pronouns and why it's important? And how many of you know what cisgender means?" And sharing my identity and coming out as cisgender so that--and sharing my pronouns so that I'm not acting like heterosexuality and cisgenderness is normal, you know? We have to make it visible in order to even point out to people that this--we shouldn't be assuming this is normal, and you shouldn't be walking around every day assuming everybody shares your identity. Like, and we've that. I mean, so many of us have been so comfortable and--you know, I'll share it. You know this statistic probably, but it's so startling that 1 out of every 5 people under 34 is non-cis and non-straight. So 1 out of 5. So as you walk around your life, as you hire people, as you work with teams, as you meet customers, 1 out of 5, and yet the chances are that they're hiding that from you and they're not comfortable for you. So what can you do to say, "Hey, this is a safe place. I am someone that you can bring your whole self to me, around me, and I will see you, and I will be not only just open to it, but I will be embracing of it, and I won't assume that you're like me." You know, "I will give you the chance to self-identify," and I will self-identify. I will be brave in doing that, because, like, I'm not gonna put all the burden on you to talk about your experience, but I'm not gonna remain silent and not talk about mine." It's funny, because I get a lot of questions afterwards. People come up to me and say, "How do I start that conversation with someone?" To say, "Hey, I'm doing my work. I'm trying to learn. I want you to feel comfortable. What would you like me to know?" And we sort of walk through, like, "How do I even start that conversation?" Because people are really--they just don't know how to begin, and they don't know whether it will come across as authentic, and they're worried they're gonna be out of their depth really fast. [laughs] Which, by the way, they will be. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] You're absolutely right, but I think it's the internal getting yourself comfortable with being uncomfortable and being comfortable with being ignorant, and ignorant truly meaning just not knowing, and seeking to learn, right? Like, MLK Jr. talked about this. Like, he was quoted saying something like, "White people, as part of their superiority, think that they have so very little to learn when it comes to--" Like, just race, matters of race, and I think that can be extended and expanded, right? That if you're a part of a majority, a part of a privileged class, it's easy for you to think that you just--you don't need to learn, but being curious, right, and seeking to understand is, like, one of the greatest signs of humility, and really it's endearing. Like, the right people, in my experience--when I come to people and I say, "Hey, I really just want to understand. I want to learn from you. I genuinely want to learn." Those discussions go well, because they--Jennifer: They do.Zach: Right? They go well, because you're humbling yourself to listen and to receive. You talked about the statistics, about 1 in 5 today, [and] I think that really leads me well into the next question. So a good deal of your book discusses the future of work and the role inclusion will play. What are your predictions on how organizations will need to adapt to attract future diverse talent in the next 10 years?Jennifer: Oh, my gosh. Well, they're all, like, woefully behind already and have been. [laughs] It's like the ostrich with its head in the sand. I think, you know, when business is good and the economy is good, it covers--it's like high tide, you know? It covers up a lot of things that low tide reveals. And I think a lot of people are too comfortable. You know, I just think that business leaders in particular--and to your point that you just made, right? If life is working out for me, like economically I'm comfortable, I'm not afraid of, you know, being pulled over, you know, as I'm driving. I'm not afraid for my child in the world. You know, all of those things that are blind spots for some people. You can kind of sail on through life and through your work in being a leader, believe it or not, and not really be held accountable for a lot of these things. People deny that it's an urgent situation, but I see it as a really urgent situation, that the fact that, you know, the number of women and people of color at certain levels in companies--which I'm kind of obsessed with the mid-level, because the mid-level is where people--they're really tired of hanging on, like, white-knuckling it up the pipeline, trying to, you know, get supported, get promoted, get--you know, have somebody take an interest in them, have somebody run interference for them. You know, when you're undermentored and undersupported, and then you're underrepresented as well, and you look around, and you look up, and you don't see anyone that--you know, we say "you've got to see it to be it." You know, you get tired, and it's no wonder to me that the numbers and the representation of anyone who's not a straight white male have been kind of really flatlined, you know? And even the best and most progressive companies are really struggling to hold onto people, to raise them up to the level where I want to see them, right? Which is the executive level, because then they can make all--a whole world of difference, you know? An executive leader can, with one signature, you know, create a policy or address the pay gap, you know? They have so much power. Or hold a customer accountable, or take a stance on a political issue in social media. And so if people can't make up there, and we decide to bail out because it just proves too arduous and we're just, like, physically tired, and we're emotionally tired, and the compassion and fatigue and the emotional labor and all of it, being the spokesperson for an entire community. It becomes too much, and, you know, then we leave and we create our own businesses, which is a great solution, which was, you know, the thing I did. [both laugh] You know, 'cause I was like, "This is not gonna work for me." But that's a loss, because not everybody is set up to be an entrepreneur. You know, you need a lot of capital. You need--we talked about privilege. You know, you need certain things in place in order to make that work, and it's just not tenable for most people. So workplaces have to work for people, for all of us. So the future of work, you know, I get asked a lot about quotas and targets. I personally--I hesitate to say this, like, super publicly because companies are really twitchy about requirements and quotas, and you get a lot of pushback, but I'm honestly--I'm at a point where I feel like if people are left to their own devices change doesn't happen, and if change does happen it's slow and it's not widespread, and it's too slow to make a meaningful difference in the short amount of time we have to really see change.Zach: Absolutely.Jennifer: I mean, I think the house is on fire. [laughs] You know, I think economically people are falling behind. They're not getting promoted. They're therefore missing out on economic growth and opportunity and wealth, and, you know, I'm just not seeing it, when the world is changing so fast and companies are not keeping up with it. And so is the bottom line impacted? Is ROI measured? You know, we really--we have to have, like, an honest conversation about losing customers and clients and people leaving the organization, and companies have to wake up and say, you know, "If we don't do something really serious about this, we're gonna be sitting in the same exact place in 10 years." So, you know, I'm all for the more radical solutions. You know, I think--honestly, I think slates, interview slates, need to have a required number of women on them and a required number of people with diverse ethnicities. LGBTQ is tough because we don't disclose. So the companies I work with struggle with something called self-identification. We don't trust our companies--and this just speaks volumes--we don't trust our companies enough to check a box about who we really are, so we can't be counted. [laughs] So we--so, you know, there has to be, like, faith that we exist in organizations upwards of maybe 10% of the population, because we're only--on paper, we're only recorded at, like, 1%.Zach: Yeah, and that's just not accurate, right?Jennifer: No, it's not accurate, but we're doing that because we're terrified, you know? We're terrified of losing our job. We're just--even in the best companies. And that's true for people with disabilities too, but I think [some] companies have to [?], and I think they're gonna get pushed back. If they roll things out like this, they're gonna get a lot of pushback. People are gonna say, "I don't want to be forced to--" You know, "I believe in a meritocracy, and I want to hire the best person for the job, and you can't force me to hire a candidate that's less than," and my answer to that is if you did a good job of having enough of a pipeline of all kinds of talent, it wouldn't just be one candidate you're looking at and you're feeling like somebody, you know, is forcing you, holding your feet to the fire to hire them. You would have lots of choices. And so we've got to do a better job of filling that pipeline, keeping people in the pipeline, not letting them leave, and investing in them so that they feel they can thrive at a company long-term instead of wanting to bail out because they can't stand it out anymore, you know? That's just a sad commentary on workplace culture, but unfortunately I think it's the experience of tons of people that I talk to.Zach: The thing about it is the challenge with it is like--your earlier point around change, like, not--you know, that if left to its own devices will happen so incrementally, so small, that it won't be--it won't have--Jennifer: So slowly. It won't be meaningful. It won't even be big enough, yeah.Zach: And I think when you look at American history and you look at the history of civil rights in this country, it's really--I don't know if we have, like, a tangible example of truly radical sustained change from a culture perspective in this country. I think when you look across--especially when you look at, like, this current presidency, it's actually forced a lot of people to really, like, look at the history of race relations in America, especially if you want to examine, like, the past 55, 60 years, and you look at--and if you look at, like, the economic positioning of blacks today versus blacks in 1967, you know, you don't see the needle moving much at all. In fact, in a lot of areas you see the needle moving down. So it's interesting, so I 100% agree with you that there needs to be some genuinely radical--I'm gonna use the word again, radical--change in thought in terms of just what it's gonna look like, because--and we talked about this in another interview too. We talked about the future of work and we talked about the future of learning and education. You know, as the economy shifts and changes and more and more folks are not going to school, because school is going to continue to get more expensive and--like, all of that, it's gonna create a completely new environment that I don't know if we're really taking the time to really examine and consider. Jennifer: I know. We're still having the conversation with managers to say, "Hey, don't hire from the school you went to. That's bias." Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: You know, literally that's where we are. But you're talking about, like, the 3.0, which is literally that people are not gonna have these traditional college degrees or any degree. They'll go to trade school or whatever it is. Like, they're gonna have completely non-traditional backgrounds. They will have been, you know, previously incarcerated. They will be, you know, of different statuses, and we have to figure out--like, workplaces need all the talent they can get, and yet they're completely behind in terms of how they seek that talent, where they look. People, like, throw their hands up so too easily, you know? They just say, "Oh, we just couldn't find anyone." [laughs] You know, it's just, like, endless, the stories I hear. And I don't know. It's laziness. It's--I don't even know. I mean, it depends on the day, like, how cynical I am about it all, but I don't know. [laughs] I just am like, "Really?" Like, if you really wanted to find people, they're there, and I--believe me, 'cause I'm on Twitter, and, like, Black Twitter is on fire. Like, you know, the number of angel investment groups, the number of VCs, the number of start-ups, the number of black girls who code. Like, there's such a great community to recruit from, and I just--I wonder, like, what is it--what is it that people aren't doing or won't do? Like, what is the hold up?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. You know what, Jennifer? I'ma say this. Hold on. You know what? You're a real one. I appreciate you. That's a really good call-out, 'cause you're absolutely right. Like, Black Twitter is poppin,', and, like, there's so much--there are so many pools, right, of talent for you to engage in. There's Black Code Collective, like, in D.C. Like, there's all types of stuff. Like, there are people--and, like, to your point around, like, how people are learning today, there are people who went to culinary school and then, like, are now learning how to code, and, like, they're good at it, right? There are communities now that will welcome you in for free. You will--you can learn, and you can genuinely understand and learn how to code. And so there's plenty of opportunity to deepen your pipeline, so yeah, that's a really good point. There are things that people either aren't doing or are choosing not to do, but the talent is definitely out there. You know, you talked about cynicism. I think that really leads to my next question. Like, can we take a step back and just talk about, like, D&I, or I&D, as an industry, right? Jennifer: Oh. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Jennifer: Speaking of cynicism, I think I know where you're going with this. I'm ready to go there with you too, so I think I know. [both laugh]Zach: So there's a growing sentiment, right, that the largest voices who are advocating for diversity and inclusion in highly-visible or corporate/corporatized spaces are themselves members of the majority and, by relation, have some inherent blind spots within the subject matter that they espouse expertise in. Do you find any merit to that concern? And, like, what have you done to challenge your own blind spots? You spoke to this a little bit earlier, but I'd love for you to expound on that and if you have any other advice you would give to others.Jennifer: Hm, that is such an interesting observation. It's funny, because I could make the counter-argument that I think we're in a time--like, you ask any white diversity leader right now, and their credibility is questioned on a daily basis to be in the role they're in. Like, that is the truth. In fact, they get, like, threats.Zach: Really?Jennifer: Yeah. I've seen some people get some serious heat just for having the audacity of even having the position or accepting the position.Zach: Oh, wow.Jennifer: Yeah. So there's many stories, right, on all sides of this issue, and like I said, I think--I don't know if I said it earlier, but when you're a marginalized community, it also doesn't mean that you're a great leader on inclusion necessarily. Zach: That's true, yeah.Jennifer: Because I've seen plenty of--you know, like, we were talking about white gay men at Stonewall who were--you know, can be, like, very misogynistic, very racist, very--and so, you know, that can carry forward into a diversity leader role, but that doesn't mean that all of them are totally, you know, not effective practitioners, and it also doesn't mean because you're a person of color that you're an effective practitioner, right?Zach: That's right.Jennifer: So to me--and you respect this--it's a skill set, you know? It is a skill set, but it is also your identity, right? And it's how you deal with your identity in the world, and it's how you integrate those two things that makes you an effective voice. But also you've got to be an incredibly savvy change agent to have these roles. I mean, they're very difficult roles. They're some of the most complex roles that exist, I think, in business, because it's part influencing, it's part executive, you know, believability, credibility. It's passion. It's change agility. It is storytelling, right, and being, like--but incredibly data-oriented and, you know, convincing, and knowing the business so that you can make the business case, right? So you need to know the business you're in in order to make the argument for D&I, and you've got to be able to do all of those things. And by the way, you're probably part of a marginalized community, and you're dealing with all of the biases personally, like, that you're getting, at the same time as you're leading an entire institution, like, through this morass, you know? Through these really difficult, tense, and, you know, complex times. So it's really, like, one of the toughest roles, and I have so much respect--I worry about our practicioner community, both on the consulting side but really our internal--my internal clients, 'cause they're just--they're holding up, you know, this planet, you know, these giant organizations. Anyway, but to answer your question [of] "Who's allowed and who has permission to do this work?" It's a very good question. I mean, I've even questioned--you know, 'cause somebody hasn't dug into who I am and has judged me just based on what I look like, and that's okay. I mean, I would say, you know, it hurts me, but whatever. Like, that doesn't matter. It's most important, I think, for us not to judge each other, I think for us to look at the skill set objectively, but I do think the optics of people in these roles are important. You have to be, like, a really amazing, humble leader. Like, you have to be--you have to be really deep in the work, I think, to take on that role as a majority identity. If you're a--say you're a white guy. I don't know a lot of white straight guys in these roles. I do know white gay guys, and they--every day their privilege is pointed out to them. Every day. Nobody lets them forget, you know, that they are--that they have an enormous responsibility in that role and that, like, they have a lot of work to do. And if you talk to any of them--and I know some of my clients are of that identity, and it's a tough lift for them. I know some straight white women, and again, they are pretty enlightened people, and they're very humble, and they're very, like--they've been studying this for a long time. Some of them have sort of really personal relationships. I know a lot of gay white women actually in these roles, and they--and sometimes I know gay women of color in these roles, and they're amazing. I mean, amazing amazing. Like, and the intersectionality they can bring to it is deep, and I find--not to say, you know, certain combinations of identities are, like, more important, but to be able to speak to so many different identities in your workforce in a direct way, you know, there's kind of--that's a wonderful shortcut, to be able to do that and on top of that be, like, somebody who's, like, been in HR for 20 years, you know, and is super savvy about playing the politics and all of the other things you need for the role, but I would like to think that we can all--we all have a role to play, and some companies are more embracing of--I will tell you some inside baseball. Sometimes I get asked to send, you know, a white man to a consulting engagement, and--that is true, you know, and talk to anyone in the work that I do, and they'll tell you that's [?]. And we will push back. We will say, you know, "We're not sure that's the right answer," and "Let's talk about it," and, you know, sometimes strangely it is the right answer for certain groups who have been really, really recalcitrant and resistant, and the messenger matters sometimes more than the message. Like, certain people can be heard in certain ways, and we know this is true. So we--that's why we have such tremendous diversity on our consulting team, because we just--we have to get creative sometimes and make sure that we build a pairing, for example, that's gonna be in front of a room that maybe the client is really, really struggling to be heard in front of this business unit or this team or this, you know, office in a certain region in the country, and we'll need to switch it out. You know, we'll need to put a different voice in front of people to see, you know, and sadly the messenger is something that needs to be considered. And I wouldn't let it rest, and I wouldn't not challenge it, but I do think we--we've got to use every change tool in our arsenal, particularly with those who are really resistant and really stuck and I think experiencing a lot of bias per the messenger that they're hearing the message from. And it's funny. You know, I have to be really careful. I can't be the angry--I have to be careful to not be the angry woman and the angry gay person, and I can't imagine what it would be like delivering that truthful message that I do and also being a person of color, right? I'm very aware that I have a lot more latitude for my quote-unquote passion to come through, right, and to be--and not to have it seen as being threatening, you know? Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, your point around, like, changing up the messenger and mixing it up, it's really interesting because in the work that I have done, I have a similar strategy--and it's interesting, because I do that without even being asked. Like, I'll just be like, "Look, I know that for this I just need to have a really approachable white face to deliver this message," and they're partners for me in that. And honestly, Jennifer, I do that even just at work. Like, if I have a big meeting--Jennifer: Of course. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] If I have a big meeting or, like, you know, there's just something going on and it's like, "Okay, I really want to share this thing, but I know that if I say it, then it's gonna get an eye roll or it's not gonna be heard, so let me go ahead and mobilize this white woman or this white guy."Jennifer: Your allies.Zach: Yes, and then I'll have them say it, or I will let them know that I'm about to say it. Jennifer: I wish that weren't true.Zach: Say that again?Jennifer: I just wish it weren't true, like, that you have to do that, and to me that's, like, the extra tax that we pay. You know, that's extra labor. You have to literally not only have the brilliant idea, but you have to, like, strategize about who is, like, sitting next to you or, you know, backing you up when you have a brilliant idea, or who's gonna echo your--you know, women deal with this, and we all know this is, like, a fact of life. But I appreciate what you're bringing up, that it's a universal experience for so many of us, and it's just--if we look at it on the bright side--let's, like, look at it as a glass half-full, which I always do. [laughs] You know, I think this all makes us really savvy, like, very emotionally intelligent, right? Because as limited as our audience might be in terms of seeing us, doesn't this make us--it sort of sharpens our saw. I mean, I think when you have to think about "How am I gonna get this group over the finish line?" Like, how am I going to get them to listen to me, to believe in what I say and to give me the credibility when I'm walking in the room and I know what they're thinking about me?" You know, "How am I gonna do that?" And to me it's, like, a--you know, it's a brain twister, but it makes you be very creative. And by the way, I hope in enlisting those allies that they know why they're being enlisted and that it really raises their awareness [of] the permutations that so many of us go through in the workplace to be heard. You know, that's--I hope that they're noticing that. Like, that's a really important learning, to be approached by someone--to say, "Hey, would you have my [back?] in this meeting? I'm gonna bring this up," and, you know, to me that is, like, such a sad commentary, and at the same time it's such a demonstration of how far we have to go for people to be heard and the space that we have to learn to hold for each other. Like, we've got to do that--you know what? We need to do that without being asked. That's where I really want to get, right? So that if I'm in this meeting and I hear you bring up this brilliant idea, you don't even need to ask me to have your back. Like, I am gonna instinctively know if you're talked over or if somebody steals your idea or somebody poo-poos it that I'm gonna intervene, and I'm gonna know what's going on, and that to me, that would be sort of nirvana in the workplace, that those pre-conversations, that pre-planning that you just described doesn't even need to happen because everyone knows it's an issue and everyone's on guard for it. Like, can you imagine? Like, if we were all like, "Oh, no, no." You know, "She is not gonna be talked over," or "His idea is not going to be dismissed," you know? "And I'm gonna quote it, and I'm gonna bring the attention back to him and, you know, his idea." It's like the women in the Obama cabinet. I love that story, where they literally decided, like, that this was not gonna happen anymore, and they all banded together and made the plan.Zach: Yes, I loved that.Jennifer: And then they went into--I know. And then they went into the meeting, and they all, like, echoed each other's ideas and mentioned each other by name and made eye contact with other women in the room. So they sort of redirected everybody's attention. I'm still--believe it or not, if I go into a meeting with my male colleague, they will talk to him. Like, it still happens to me. Oh, yeah. And I'm a CEO, and he works for me, you know? [both laugh] So yeah, it's still a thing. And he's really good, because he'll, like, redirect back to me. Zach: "Um, actually, Ms. Brown, what do you think?" [laughs]Jennifer: Yes. Well, he'll say, "Well, as Jennifer always says," right? "As somebody who is an acknowledged expert." I love that. [laughs] But yeah, we need to do that [?], and that would be nirvana. So I really talk about that a lot in my book. Like, the emotional labor of having to ask for help, I really, really wish more of us would know that help is needed. Like, we would know the data. We would know the research. You know, for God's sake, like, read the McKenzie report on women that they do every year. Zach: Oh, it's so good.Jennifer: Yeah, it's so good, and you'll realize that women of color have different headwinds than white women. Just that, you know? And if you go into meetings and you see this dynamic and you have any level of privilege, any level of positional power where you're listened to in a different way, you need to activate that so that you change those numbers and those outcomes. Like, you must do that. And it's such a small thing. This takes two seconds. Like, that's the thing when people are like, "Ugh, inclusion takes so much time, and I'm so busy, and I don't know how--it competes with the business priorities, and I have a long list, and, like, I'm already strapped for time." All of that--I don't think this takes a lot of time. It just takes a moment of attention to [bias?] your own others, a quick conversation to check in with somebody, a request for feedback, a "Hey, you know, I wanted to follow up with you after that meeting." Like, "I really thought your idea was great. I want to support you. How can do I do more of that?" That, like, takes two seconds to say, and like you said earlier, it's so welcome. Like, I think that's the--people are like, "I don't know how to start that conversation." [laughs] It's like, "Most of these conversations are, like, a gift to so many people who are never asked these questions to begin with," right? So please approach me. Ask me how can you support me more differently. What could you say in a meeting? What could you say after a meeting to someone when I'm not around? You know, I think that's the other piece, right? Like, give feedback to people that look like you. Like, I always say, you know, "Men listen to other men in a very different way." And so, you know, if you've got the privilege of being listened to. You know, the messenger, not just the message, and you can take the burden off of my shoulders to have a hard conversation with somebody, to say, "Hey, that joke made me uncomfortable." Like, that's a very risky move for me to do, 'cause I--you know, that is drawing attention to my difference. I have no idea how that person is going to react. And so I really--as a woman, I really appreciate men who proactively are like, "What can I do to--" Really it's kind of protect you in a way, and it's not protect in a sort of damsel-in-distress kind of way. It is literally--like, it could be protecting an idea. It could be making sure you don't fall victim to politics in the office. It could be that I represent you when you're not in the room and I talk about how brilliant you are, you know? It's that kind of thing, because otherwise we're sort of hanging out in the wind. And one of the things I always say is diverse talent is undermentored and very undersponsored, which means that we're not--we literally aren't looked after, like, informally. We are not--like, somebody's not like, "Well, let me have that career conversation with her to make sure that she's up for that role, so that she has P&L experience, so that she's then positioned so she can get that promotion," because there's all of these, like, unspoken and unwritten rules that we're not privy to when you're not in the power structure. So I often task people I speak to, like, "Look at the people you mentor. Look at the people you sponsor. Do they look like you?" You know, if they do, and you are a certain demographic, like, you must remedy that. Like, you've got to be mentoring across difference, sponsoring across difference, and--by the way, it should be reverse mentoring as well. It should be mutual so that you're learning--to your point earlier, like, how are you getting your learning about cultural differences? It's in the context of these really, really important one-on-one relationships. So wherever you can power share, wherever you can be influenced or learn somebody's experience, as a senior executive, your biggest risk is that you're isolated from all of this, and therefore you're not an effective leader. You're not positioning yourself for the future. You're harming your company, because you're setting this vision every day, but you--there's so much you don't know. So, you know, I think that's a good wake-up call for people usually. And if that doesn't work, [laughs] I don't know. I give up.Zach: [laughs] I don't know.Jennifer: I'm like, "I've given you now two books to read." You know, 63 podcast episodes. You know? Come on. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "What more do you want more from me?"Jennifer: What more do you need? It's writing on the wall. Wake up, you know? Get with--get on the train, you know, and be willing to make mistakes as we were talking about earlier, and, you know, even know how to do a good apology, 'cause, you know, I think there is a real art to a real apology. I think you said earlier [that] there's nothing worse than somebody who, like, says all the right things but, like, in this really authentic kind of faux, polished way.Zach: Yes. You know what? We're gonna have to have you back just to talk about the topic of apologizing [?]. Like, for real.Jennifer: Yeah, right? I love that apology. I mean, I love that topic. Sorry.Zach: No, no, you're good.Jennifer: But a good apology can make up for everything, and it's almost like a required skill set, particularly for those in the majority, because things are gonna happen. Like, you're gonna mess it up. You are. And so being comfortable with uncomfortable, comfortable with hard feedback, and, to me, not slinking away into the corner but saying, "Thank you so much for that, and I'm gonna try it again, and I'm gonna do it differently." Like, wouldn't that resilience be really neat to hear and see in our leaders?Zach: It would. It would be great, and I think--you know, believe it or not I'm actually a little bit encouraged coming out of this conversation. This has been really good.Jennifer: [laughs] Really?Zach: Yeah, I am.Jennifer: Oh, that's good, 'cause we talked about some cynical stuff. [laughs]Zach: We did, we did, but it was real though.Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's such a mixed bag, but like you said earlier, like, we're living in really interesting times of awakening, and you're right--like, I think ever since the 2016 election I would say is when so many people and so many companies were like, "Oh, my goodness," you know? MLK Jr., "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." One of my favorite quotes, but guess what? We have to bend the arc. Like, the arc, it ain't gonna bend itself.Zach: Right? It don't just bend by itself. Right. [laughs]Jennifer: Like, that's the thing. So to me we've got to take that and bend it, and I think what we've realized is it's not this destiny, you know? Things aren't gonna happen without--and they aren't gonna happen because of good intentions. They're not gonna happen because we have maybe progressive values. They're not gonna happen because "Oh, I'm a male leader and I have daughters, so therefore, like, I am an expert on gender equality." No. Zach: Right. [laughs]Jennifer: No. Like, you have to do something, and you have to do something publicly, consistently, constantly. I used an example in a book of Marc Benioff, who is the CEO of Salesforce, who discovered he had a huge pay gap and literally wrote a check for $3 million, like, right away and was like, "I'm gonna gross up pay for people, because I'm not gonna let this stand another day, then we're gonna do the harder work," right? Which is rooting out, like, why did this happen in the first place. And then as he's done this--he does it every year now--they've discovered, by the way, pay gap--not just gender but ethnicity pay gaps. Not surprising.Zach: Right.Jennifer: And then they've acquired so many 10s of companies that also had pay gaps as Salesforce acquired them, and they had to do a new audit, you know, and to look at their pay gaps and, you know, gross it up. So, you know, literally there are people that are--that are just being relentless on this, because under their watch they're not gonna let this persist. And so I do see a lot of courage amongst leaders, and that leaves me really hopeful. I wish I saw it more, and I wish I saw it more publicly. I think there's a lot of really interesting conversations going on with privately with lawyers and, you know, the board and, you know, sometimes I'm privy to those, and I'm really, really heartened by the interest I see in the C-Suite. I have to say, people are getting it, and I think their question now is "How do we change it?" And that's a much harder question to answer when you're dealing with a giant organization that does business all over the world and has to contend with laws in various parts of the world, and, you know, it's hard to know where to start, and I think that's where people are at, that they want to start, and that's a relief to me. I mean, it makes my job easier because I'm not fighting the "Why is this important?" battle all of the time.

Zach speaks with Tamara Fields, the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture. She details her career journey to this point and offers her perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive.Connect with Tamara on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, I've got some good news, I've got some great news, then I've got some sad news, okay? So if you didn't know, Living Corporate has been partnering with Accenture to present to y'all a leadership series, okay? These are the most experienced North American black and brown managing directors, okay? This is what I'm saying. If you look at North America for Accenture, and you were to say "Hm, where are all the executive leaders who are black and brown and, like, who is the most senior in that group, and what are their stories?" Living Corporate would be able to say, "Oh, you mean these people right here? We got 'em." So that's the good news. That's the great news. The sad news is this is the last entry for now of this leadership series, okay? And my hope is that you--first of all of course you listen to this one, but [that] you'll listen to all of them, because we've been honored to have some amazing guests, and our last guest is no less amazing - Tamara Fields. Tamara Fields is the Austin Office Managing Director at Accenture, where she is responsible for bringing innovation to clients, recruiting and retaining top talent, and strengthening Accenture’s relationship with the community. She has over 20 years of experience in the health and public service sector, driving creative, strategic, and transformative solutions for federal and state government clients via multilateral project management, contract management and HR and financial transformation. My goodness, gracious. Sound Man, give me the Flex bomb. Just give it to me right here. [Flex bomb gets dropped] My goodness, gracious. An advocate for inclusion and diversity, Tamara serves as the U.S. co-lead for Accenture’s women’s employee resource group and the inclusion and diversity lead for the Accenture office in Austin. Tamara also serves as a coach and mentor in and outside of Accenture, helping people find their voice and preparing them for career advancement. She speaks at conferences and summits, like Culturati and Texas Conference for Women, and was recognized with the 2018 Central Texas DiversityFIRST award for her commitment to I&D. She is Accenture’s executive recruiting sponsor for her alma mater, the University of Texas, and sits on the Red McCombs School of Business Advisory Council as well as the boards for the Texas Conference for Women and Paul Quinn College, a historically black college in Dallas. So shout-out to our historically black colleges in Dallas. So I'ma go ahead and put the air horns right here [they drop], and I'ma give you that Cardi B "ow" right here as well [Cardi B “ow”], because shout-out to y'all. Love y'all. Now, look, with that being said, the next thing you're gonna be hearing is the interview that I had with Tamara Fields.[pause]Zach: Tamara, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Tamara: I'm doing great. Thanks very much. I appreciate being on.Zach: Oh, yeah. No, no problem. Look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Tamara: Of course. I'm just a Texas girl. Born and raised in Austin, Texas, which I feel like [?] is a unicorn--[both laugh]--with how Austin has grown, but yeah, I'm from Austin, Texas, and I currently work for Accenture. I am our Austin office managing director, so I'm responsible for our Austin office, and I'm also a key executive and managing director in our health and public service practice. So that means I spend quite a lot of work working with non-profits and higher education and with states. I went to the University of Texas at Austin, so I am a Longhorn - to all those proud Longhorns out there. And I think that's probably my quick summary on myself.Zach: Well, you know I gotta go ahead and give you some air horns for all of that, 'cause that's an amazing profile. [I drop 'em]Tamara: Ooh, I like the air horns. Can we have more?Zach: Oh, yeah.Tamara: [?]Zach: Oh, I got way more sound effects. I was trying to say--'cause this is what I'm trying to do. So as a side-note, Tamara--so, you know, Living Corporate has been around for a little over a year, and we add sound effects on the backend, but what I'm trying to do--we've got a soundboard now, so I'm over here trying to, you know, mix it up, add a little pizzazz. I was telling Rah that the last interview [that I was], you know, just trying a few different things out. So, you know, you may hear a few different things as they are appropriate in this conversation, okay?Tamara: Well, appropriate is always very important, so I appreciate that.Zach: Timing is everything.Tamara: And I will not be alarmed by your sounds, all right? Because I believe in disruptive innovation, so let's see what we can do.Zach: Oh, look at you. Look at you flexing. I see you now. Okay, all right. All right, now I'm activated. I appreciate that. [both laugh] So you've been with Accenture for over 20 years. Two sets of 10. Two.Tamara: Yeah. Are you trying to make me feel old? What exactly--[laughs] Yes, yes. Two sets of 10. Thank you, Zach. [both laugh]Zach: No. Well, the reason I bring it up--not to make you feel old. Can we talk a little bit about your journey and what it's looked like for you not just to survive but thrive in consulting, right? Because I've seen--in my experience in consulting and outside of consulting, black professionals--black and brown professionals, a lot of times they will get right up to either that manager or senior manager level and just kind of stay there for a while, and so it's rare--that I've seen, in my experience--many of us break into, like, the true executive-level leadership, and so--you know, it just seems like such a hyper-political space. I'd love just to hear about what your path has been.Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's very interesting. I mean, I think one of the very first reasons why I came to work for Accenture, which at the time was interested in consulting when I graduated, was because I saw people who looked like me. It's really that simple. I initially had a marketing background, so I wasn't even in the technology space at all, or the consulting space. I wasn't focused on that. And one of my friends signed me up, and I went to an interview, and as I was going through the interview process, I started to run into individuals and greeters that they had there, and a couple of people who were friends of mine, who had graduated a couple of years before, were like, "Come on, Tamara. Come try this out." So I did, and it's been interesting to me, because I think that that aspect is what's really helped my career. I think that consulting can be intimidating. There's a lot of work associated with it. You're always having to spend time to stay up on trends and skills and capabilities and technology, and you're always in learning mode at the same time as you're guiding your clients, but what I found most intriguing about it is the fact that it's not a product, it's about people, and it's a team-based activity, and I think, for me, that was important, because I like connection with people. And so I think what's really helped me navigate my career, to be honest with you, has been relationships, right? It's a diverse world, and I think you have a lot of opportunity to own your path and own your career, but you have to do that with having the right people with the right opportunities with your right skill set, and those three things have to match up, and early in my career I didn't really understand that. I thought if you just worked hard, surely you're gonna get patted on the back and get promoted. [laughs] So very quickly you realize that's not the case, and so I really had to learn a couple of key points that I'll share. One is advocacy. It is important, right? And understanding your contribution and what you bring to the table and being able to articulate that, not in a boastful way, but in a way that helps everybody understand the work that you're performing and how you're contributing. That's important, and that was [anti?] to my culture and my world, right? I was raised in a very--in a background that believed in servant leadership. You know, if you do a good job, that's good enough, right? And so it was really hard for me to advocate and really to tell my story and be able to represent my story. And the second thing that was important is you need relationships at all levels - those that work for you and above you, and understanding the ecosystem that you work in, the organization structure that you work in and understanding the key players in that are important, and you need to take the time to understand where you work, how you work, who you're working with. You need to understand how they contribute and leverage that network, and I know people utilize "network" very freely, but it's exceptionally important. Like, you have to have sponsors or a key sponsor, and that sponsor is only a sponsor if they are well-positioned in the company to be able to advocate on your behalf. So that goes back to that first statement of advocacy, and so I had to learn how to navigate that, and I had to learn how to navigate that with individuals who didn't look like me, right? Because when I first came into the company there were a lot of African-American females, and even now, right, that's something that we're committed to, and I'm really thankful to work for a company that's committed to inclusion and diversity, but overall in the technology space, the percentages of African-Americans or Hispanics or women, right, that's still a number that has to grow, right? And so the reality of that means I have to have mentors and sponsors who may not be my makeup, but they're still committed to my success, and I had to learn how to get past my own unconscious bias to reach out and to leverage them and leverage those relationships in telling my story to navigate my career to success. And that was hard for me on multiple levels, one because we all suffer from impostor syndrome at some time. We all doubt ourselves. I wasn't used to talking about myself in that way. Learning how to establish relationships differently, at different levels and in different ways, and so I really had to embrace that in order for me to see, you know, my career path grow.Zach: Wow. So look, you know, it's been a theme, right? I've been talking to y'all, and when I say y'all I'm talking about y'all Accenture MDs. And so I keep on dropping this Flex bomb, but I gotta do it again. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? 'Cause golly. You're dropping real stuff. But, you know, jokes aside, it all boils down to vulnerability, and that's hard, right?Tamara: So hard. [both laugh]Zach: It's hard to practice vulnerability with folks that look like you, let alone folks that don't look like you, especially if you've been burned a couple times by some of those folks who don't look like you. Then it's like, "Well, dang, okay. Not only are my feelings kind of hurt, I also need to figure out a way to preserve myself. So what does it look like for me to just exist here," you know what I mean? So I definitely understand, 100% agree, with every point you made, and I just--[coin sfx]--you know, I just want to--I really do appreciate you sharing those points, because it is true that a lot of times, like, we--I'll speak for myself, 'cause your point around servant leadership resonated with me. That's definitely, like, my background as well. It's, like, the whole just "Okay, look, lead with humility. Look out for those before you look out for yourself," and that framework, while I'm not saying it isn't--I still believe in it, but it creates challenges in spaces where everyone is so very much so looking out for themselves. So what does it look like to practice servant leadership, but at the same time tactfully, professionally, honestly advocate for yourself? Like, those are--that's a hard balance to find, you know what I mean?Tamara: It is, and I think what we think is sometimes they have to be mutually exclusive, and that's not the case, right? What I had to learn was--and I was actually coached on this. And this was hard, right? I was very used to always saying "we did this," and "we did this," and "we did that." What they really want to understand [is] "What did you do, Tamara, as part of this collective," you know, success or project that you're talking about. Because they understand that you didn't deliver the project by yourself. [both laugh] [?] leadership, right? What they're trying to understand is what piece of the pie did you have, and how did you influence that? What ingredients did you add into that pay to help that pie taste wonderful, right? And so I had to learn how to use the word "I," which was hard, and at the same time use the word "team." So I would have to say things like, you know, "I directed the team to do this, and this is how the team executed this." You know, "We set up this collaboration method or this design session," you know, and "I facilitated that, and the team came up with some really innovative ideas. I helped the team work through how to deliver that." You know, "I delivered these pieces of the effort, and I honed this client relationship, and I helped the client interact with these team members in this way." But it was really about making sure that we clarified how I personally contribute, and then at the same time also talk to the team objective. So you can do both, and I don't--and I think that's where people miss, right? It's not to negate what the team does, but that team is working for you. [coin sfx] They're helping you be high-performing. Absolutely give them credit for that, and you need to definitely talk about that, but you're a part of that team. You're directing that team. You're providing leadership to that team. Those aspects of what you're doing shouldn't be ignored, and you can share that and still share in that team's success, because your success is the team's success and vice versa. And so recognizing that fact I think was key in my ability to start understanding how to speak to how I contributed and how the team contributed and how we did it together.Zach: Amen. Come on, now. You know what? And something else can we talk about for a second is--'cause you talked about using the word "I" and, like, what it is you did. Can we talk a little bit about--in terms of looking to progress and thrive in these corporate spaces as a leader, as a person of color, as a--let me be more specific, because sidenote--and we're gonna get to this later in the questions--Tamara, does it ever annoy you when people use, like, the term "person of color," like, as a catch-all as opposed to being more explicit and saying, like, "black and brown?" And it's okay if--I'm just curious.Tamara: That doesn't bother me so much. I just think that what--what probably bothers me even more than that is I think that people should not be afraid to use terms, right? I am an African-American, and if you're concerned about what to ask, then ask me what my preferred term is and I'll share it, right? Because I think it's important to put out. It's just in the same way that when people say "I don't see color." I don't understand what that means, right? Because the reality is I am a person of color. I am an African-American, I am a woman, and I don't want to ignore these facts. They bring uniqueness to my personality, being a female, being an African-American, being a Texan, being a UT grad. They're all just aspects and characteristics that I bring to the table that I think is unique, and that's what brings that innovation to the conversation. So you don't need to ignore it, and a lot of times, if I'm presenting at an I&D conference or any type of meeting, I will say that just right off the bat, because sometimes you just need to take out the concern, the tension, the fear around these conversation points. I think it goes back to being authentic. You know, early in my career, it was hard for me to fully embrace some of these topics courageously, right? And I had to come to my own place of "This is who I am at 100%," and I had to represent me, and if I'm going to be an authentic leader--and I really think when I made that shift is when I actually started to see a lot more success a lot faster in my career, because I fully embraced who I was. And that doesn't mean everybody has to like it, but they need to respect it and understand what I bring to the table. And so I thin kit's really about the fact that you need to know who you are, fully accept who you are, bring that fully all-in from an authentic point of view, and you're gonna have success when you do that.Zach: I love it. So I paused and asked you a side question before I got to my real question. So my real question is can we talk a little bit about, as a leader, why it's important to make sure you're doing the right kind of work, and I share that because for me--I'm a newer manager. I've been a manager, like, maybe two years or so. I think this will be my second year just being a manager. I was coming from another firm. Now I'm at a new firm as a manager, and coming into this new firm, I've been--I've got the feedback that, like, "Look, Zach, as a manager--as a leader, your job is not to quote-unquote get things done. Your job is to actually lead the team." And so I know for me, I think just the way that I--maybe just my background, how I've been coached, I've felt like there's always been a pressure to prove myself and show that I'm actually doing something, as opposed to what does it look like to actually facilitate the team and drive results through the team that I'm leading. Can you talk a little bit about, like, your journey in pivoting from being, like, a person who just got a lot of tasks done very well to really influencing and driving results for a group of people?Tamara: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I've had-- I think I've had two major what I would call crossroad points where that occurred, right? So just like you, when you, you know, made that point, from consultant to manager, you're--you know, and those are terms we utilize in my Accenture consulting world. It's that difference of you're part of the team and you're doing the work to you need to direct what the work and strategic vision needs to be, and you need to own that and direct the team and manage that, and manage the deadlines, the deliverables, et cetera. And I think really what that is about is understanding that you can't do all things and you need to prioritize your time and be effective, and it's hard for you to provide proper oversight to the team and manage the quality deliverables they're generating if you don't do that. What really helped me is, you know, we have various trainings, right? And we talk about what it really means--what are the expectations of a manager versus a team member, right? And I think that a lot of times we get these promotions, we don't always spend the time to understand what are the requirements and the new expectations for that new role. And so the first thing I would tell people is you need to just be straight up with your boss. "Help me understand what you expect." [laughs] "What do you expect me to do?" And when you start to write that down, then you've got to th ink about how you're gonna deliver that, and if you start to deliver that and you're at 80 hours a week, then you know somewhere there's a problem.Zach: You're absolutely right.Tamara: It's that practical at times, right? The other thing I would say is you--I believe in this mentorship concept and having people above you who can see how you're working and what you're doing, because sometimes we don't see, and you need to constantly be getting the 360 feedback, right? I believe in the 30/30, right? 30 days and 30 minutes, right? And you need to ask your leadership, right, "Am I operating at the level you expect? Where do you see those changes? What do you want me to do less of and more of," right? And you need to be asking those questions on a regular basis so that you're learning through that, and then you need to observe those above you, what they're doing, how they're doing it, and how they're working, right? It's a natural inflection point that when you switch to leadership you've got to delegate more. You've got to trust your team, and you've got to be able to balance when you dig in and when you don't, and you need to have the time available to dig in on the real issues and ignore the rest, and you can't do that if you're not at that right level of ownership, oversight, and digging in, right? But if you're always in the weeds you can never see--you know, if you're always in the trees you can never see the forest, right? And so you have to work on that strategic view. The second inflection point, which was really a bigger one for me, was really when I switched to becoming a managing director, and what was interesting about that was not so much about the work, because as a senior manager at Accenture, you're already managing pretty large teams and pretty large efforts, and they did a good job in giving us trainings. We even have special inclusion and diversity trainings for African-Americans and Hispanics. You know, we're very committed to that, and so, you know, I felt like I had plenty of exposure and understanding and coaching and development and leadership training, right? What I hadn't always understood is that [soft?] skill change that has to happen as you move up that ladder, right? [laughs] By nature I'm very direct, and, you know, how you have conversations at one level versus how you have to the conversation when you are truly in charge, leading an entire portfolio or a set of work or a set of people's shifts, and sometimes you do need to be more sensitive about how you share and communicate information and how you interact with individuals, because there's an expectation there of leadership that comes with that. And so, you know, when I first kind of made that transition, I was still somewhat operating in my previous, you know, method of operation. And I had a sponsor come set up a meeting with me, and I didn't know what--I thought we were gonna talk about this one thing and he was like, "Hey, Tamara, I've noticed something," and what was good about that is we already had the relationship. We already had the relationship, so he already knew he could setup the meeting. And because we had the relationship and because he was one of my sponsors, he just really wants me to be successful, and he knew--and because we had that established relationship, he knew he could have a direct conversation and say, "Hey, I don't think you handled this meeting correctly. You're now X. This is how I would expect you to handle the meeting. You need to think about that." And it was really hard, it was really impacting, but it was right, and so it really helped me to make that soft skill adjustment that I didn't even realize needed to happen. And when you have the right people in your world, and the right relationship with them, they're gonna help you be successful in that way.Zach: No, I love it. And it goes right back to what you were saying at the top, right, about relationships and trust and vulnerability, right? Like, if there wasn't a focus--if there wasn't that time spent in the beginning building those and practicing vulnerability and building those relationships, then you may not have had that conversation.Tamara: That's exactly right, and I think that hurts a lot of people because vulnerability is important, and you have to be willing to be humble. You have to be willing to be [?], to receive constructive feedback, and you have to have the kind of relationships where you are allowed and able to do that exchange. You know, I think that what people would say about me is honesty and authenticity matters to me 100%, and I tell them from the get-go, like, "I want to know. I can take it. I want to hear. Help me to understand, help me to grow, help me to be better," because the reality is I don't know all the answers. I don't know how to execute always and always in all positions, and I don't [?]. I need to still--you should always be in learning mode, and you should always recognize there's someone to learn from and something to learn about.Zach: Absolutely. So I think this is actually a really good transition point to my next question. You know, in your Essence Magazine feature--[Cardi B "ow" sfx]--you share a bit about how you've made it a part of your role to champion diversity.Tamara: Oh, yeah.Zach: Okay. So now, Tamara, so--you know, you don't know me, I don't really know you like that, but I'ma tell you - I'm a pretty gregarious person, and in a part of that gregariousness comes an ability to build relationships and have a lot of real talk sessions with black and brown senior leaders, right? So I've spoken to quite a few of them, and they're nervous about championing diversity because they don't want to be pegged as the "black person whisperer," or pigeon-holed in a space that is like, you know, away from business. So what are your thoughts on that, and how do you combat that perception?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think it's a fair concern, and I think you always have to [?] for the company you're in. You know, for myself--let me just tell you straight up that I am passionate about inclusion and diversity period, and it doesn't matter what everybody thinks about it or how they--you know, if there's gonna be a negative or positive perception. I think that you have to do what is right for you and what is your moral code, and I believe that I have that responsibility, right? I was the, you know, first African-American female to be an OMD, right? The first female to be an OMD in the Austin office, right? I was one of the first black females to be promoted in Texas even, into a managing director role. I absolutely have a responsibility to represent and push I&D so that other people can see me, and if I'm not out there, you know, present for them to see, then they may not believe that that's an opportunity in this company, and I want them to know that it is, right? Because if I can get there, so can you. And so I just feel like--I feel very passionate about that. I'm not blind to that concern, right? And so I think the difference for me is I am in the business, right? I'm still managing a large portion of our business. I have a responsibility for a large, you know, P&L revenue responsibility, profitability responsibility, and I feel like I can do that job and still manage my career success and be committed to inclusion and diversity. Now, I will say that it's easier for me because I work at a company that is committed to I&D period, right? We were the first company to publish our numbers out there in the market in our space, and that was a pretty big deal. So we believe in it. We have accountability around it. You know, I have a CEO for North America who is female who has made a commitment to, you know, gender parity across our industry groups, right? I work in an industry group where we've already hit gender parity, in health and public service within the U.S., and that's a big deal. So this is not something they shy away from. It's a part of our responsibilities as managing directors, right? We have accountability for it, and so I feel that. So I feel like I am in a position to champion something that's important to me and at the same time deliver on the business, but I think you've got to do both. In the same token, right, I have an I&D role in my public service entity group, because I want people to know that this is important to me and I feel I need to represent that conversation. Equally however, I have just as many conversations about the business, my skill areas, around my clients, around technology trends. So people know me for an expert in so many different ways that I'm not just I&D. That's never going to be the conversation for Tamara, because Tamara has put herself out there around innovation and back office and front office and public service and--do you know what I mean? So my thing is you need to have more than just that dialogue. You need to have multiple dialogues absolutely, but you can do that. Incidentally though, there was a role that was offered to me that I chose to not take that was a +1 role in I&D, because I said, "You know what? We need to give back to someone else, 'cause I'm going to be doing I&D no matter what," right? I'm going [?]--I used to be the [?] sponsor of special, you know, trainings and learnings. I'm gonna show up at the conferences I think I need to show up. I will do that. I will make the extra time in my schedule to do that 'cause I'm passionate about it. Let's make sure other people are going down that path. I wasn't interested in being an I&D practitioner, 'cause that's not that I believe my role was. I wanted to be a managing director in the business, and I did that. [laughs] And so now that I've done that, I see it as an opportunity to be a strong influencer about where we move in that space, how we move in that space, how we're successful in that space, and I can influence that on my teams and in every way and be courageous enough to have those conversations. And I believe we have to be courageous about what's important, because the reality is we don't have enough brown and black people, so to speak, in this space, in technology. I want to change that, right? And so, you know, that's a decision I made. I think you have to make personal decisions. But what I would challenge people is, you know, "Why would you want someone else's path to be harder or more difficult than your own path? You should want it to be better and easier."Zach: Right. No, you're absolutely right, and, you know, I love your point around the fact that having multiple specialties--you know, not that you're gonna be a jack of all trades and a master of nothing, but if you have a handful of things that you're very, very skilled at--because let's say if you are passionate about I&D, and then you also have these other specialties, well, then you can then weave I&D into your domain, because I&D is ultimately focused on making sure that everyone feels involved, included, and empowered, and whatever you're talking about, especially in the tech space, is gonna involve people. So it's--I&D really isn't, like, sequestered over to something on the side. If you have a specialty, some type of depth of knowledge in something else, it's easy to then infuse that with I&D.Tamara: That's correct. I think that's right, and I think that you can have a huge impact on this space by just getting to a place of leadership, right? You can have a huge impact on the conversations that are being had and making sure that, you know, the right decisions are being made and the right opportunities are being offered for all people. At the end of the day, what we believe in is inclusion, right? We have this "Inclusion Starts With I" video that I absolutely love, 'cause it's not just about gender and ethnicity. It's about so many different aspects. It's about everyone having a voice at the table, and I think that's what's most important.Zach: Absolutely, and that's, again, a really good segue. So last year you were featured on The Daily Texan, where you gave your perspective on gender equality. Now, taking a step back, what I often see is when we look at--we really do look at gender in, like, binary terms, right? We don't really consider race as an intersect between gender, and we don't often include trans identities in these discussions. What is your perspective on how organizations can make conversations and examinations around gender more intersectional and inclusive?Tamara: Oh, absolutely. So I'm a huge fan of employee resource groups. [laughs] So we have a--so it's interesting that you say that, right? So again, it's about your personal choice to get involved, but I'm the co-lead for our United States Women employee resource group for all of the United States, and it's an awesome opportunity, right? 'Cause it really gives me a landscape to do so many different, interesting things, and I have a full team underneath me as the executive sponsor. And it's so interesting that you bring this up, because this year we talked about "What are the topics out there that we want to have," right? And one of them was around this concept of intersectionality with various groups and topics that don't come up, and interestingly, like, we just scheduled a Women of Color Voices of Leadership call in July, right? And I'm gonna sit down with our North American inclusion and diversity lead, and we're gonna talk about some of the metrics that we see women of color in corporate America and what does that mean. What does that mean, and how do we address some of the gaps that we see in corporate America? What are the key concerns that are impacting them that might be different from other groups? And what can we do about it? How do we help everybody be successful? And so I think it's really about leveraging your employee resource groups to bring the conversation to the table, whether you're doing that through a national kind of Voices of Leadership call or whether you're doing that individually in your cities, 'cause we're fortunate in that we also have employee resource groups at every city location. And so we have them dial into the sessions. Sometimes they host their own sessions. We do leadership panels around these topics, and we've done them around all of these dimensions that you're talking about. And, you know, we have LGBTQ employee resource groups. We have men's. We have military. And people are really active in them, and they're very important. We do cross-pollination across our employee resource groups, with our African-American one and our Women one, because we think that's important, to have this dialogue and talk about what it means. You know, there was some really interesting national-scale stories going on last year that were impacting people, and we will do calls on them. And they're voluntary. People don't have to join in. And we can talk about "How are people feeling about that? What did it mean to come to work when that news story broke last night? How are you feeling?" Right? We think it's important to have courageous conversations and put that dialogue out there, and we do that through the employee resource groups so that 1. you recognize there's legal and HR concerns and you want to do that appropriately--excuse me--but it's the right forum, because that's where the people are and that's where the conversation should occur.Zach: No, 100%. And to your point around--I believe you're talking about some stories--you're alluding to death by police of black people and other, like, stories around--just tragedy and loss regarding black and brown folk in the media?Tamara: Yeah. Like Black Lives Matter or things around immigration, right? These are things that impact certain cultures in a very strong way and impact, you know, how they feel about--because we can act like we can completely ignore that, but we bring our whole selves to work, right? And we don't know what people are dealing with in relation to that, no different than when we talk about those who are having to provide elderly care, right? Or they're the main provider for their children, or, you know, they're dealing with sickness or illness, right? All of these matter--all of these things matter, and so we think it's important that those conversations be out there to deal with, because that helps people cope, and that's important.Zach: It is. It's really important, and I think one thing I'm really curious about--I'm certain that some organization is going to do some research and make it, like, a formal report, but there's a certain level of just emotional labor that goes into being a non--a member of the non-majority, right, in the workplace. Like, there's--you know, we've [seen], you know, on The Root and other articles in the past. We've called it, like, "Calling In Black," and we've kind it made it, like, a joke, but also there's a lot of realness behind that in that just existing in some of these spaces, existing as you are, seeing some of the things on the news, interacting in these spaces where you're one of few can be exhausting. And so I 100% agree that ERGs are a really strong help, and then also having leadership that looks like you is a help, but I'm also really just--I'm personally curious, like, just from a health perspective, what the mental toll is for black and brown folks in the workplace, because it's a--when you see some of these things in the media, folks that look like you or that remind you of a family member or remind you of yourself, that has to have some type of impact on you, you know what I mean?Tamara: Yeah. I mean, I think that all of us have these additional +1 emotional labor situations, emotional things, but I think that for myself, right--I feel like this has been our world before I even came into corporate America. So I feel like, right or wrong, people can think what they think about it. I believe this additional layer that you're speaking to, this additional burden, however you want to call it--that extra understanding that comes when you are the non-majority in a world. And I especially feel that in Austin, because--you know, African-Americans in Austin right now is, like, 6%, right? [laughs] So it's a very small percentage, and so, you know, I always went to, you know, schools that did not look like me, and I was the only one. And so, you know, and then the conflicts of that versus my weekend world with my family and my church that might be all-majority African-American, for example. I think that we always have that emotional toll, and, you know, just like anything, I leverage my family and my friends to manage against that, right? And what I have to be careful with is to make sure I'm reading situations correctly and not putting something in there that isn't, and then sometimes it really is what I think it is and how to best navigate that with either courageous conversations or raising it up through the chain, right? And we have to do that, and we can't be afraid to do that.Zach: 100%. No, 100%. Okay, so I've got a couple more questions for you. This has actually gone really well. I appreciate you. This is one of our longer conversations in this series, and this has been great. A large part of your role involves talent recruitment. Can you share your predictions about what organizations will need to do to attract talent in the next 10 to 15 years?Tamara: Oh, my goodness. Absolutely. I mean, I think--for one thing, if they haven't already, they should be spending time--there's a lot of new companies out there that consult around the new generations and what's important to them, so the millennial generation, Generation Z, Generation Y, and what's important to them and how they operate and how they make decisions around company culture, and we've already done a lot of adjustments, and we're still doing that. I mean, we're pretty fortunate in that we're a consulting firm, so it's our nature to disrupt and understand trends for the future, right? We do that with [?] trends and our technology vision, but what we have found--and we've already gotten--I've gotten a lot of training around this already, but some of the ideologies, for example, for the millennial generation is very different than a baby boomer generation or even a Generation X, and so people need to spend time in understanding that. So for example, millennials are very civic-oriented, right? The percentage that they give, whether in time or money, is a lot higher, right? Sometimes they're more concerned with short-term versus long-term benefits. So example, in the past, right, if you were talking to a baby boomer generation, you would have spent a lot of time talking about pensions or talking about retirement and profit sharing or matching and all those things. Those same type of conversations don't immediately appeal to millennials. They really want to understand how they're gonna be valued, how they're going to move through the organization. They also want to know how the organization is giving back. They want to understand the corporate culture of the organization. And that's new, right? In the past, you didn't really spend so much time talking about corporate culture, culture fit or culture add, right, but these are terminologies that are gonna be utilized today, and so, you know, that organization has to spend time figuring out what is their culture, and what is the key messaging that they're presenting in that, so that people can make an interpretation of whether or not that's a good fit for them. You know, they're gonna want to see that that company is moving and changing with the world, you know? I think--when we presented as part of--a couple of years back, our technology vision that every company was a digital company, people were like, "What? What are you talking about?" Right? But the reality of today, I think everybody understands every company--it doesn't matter who you are or what you're doing, from oil and gas to higher education, you're digital, right? Because people interact today from a digital point of view in every regard, from payroll to, you know, those who are in the service industry to those who are not, right? And so you have to have a presence socially. You have to have a presence from a web perspective. You have to have an internal presence for how you communicate, chat, with individuals. So every aspect matters, so companies have to understand that. They're gonna have to take a strong perspective on their work schedule and their flex schedules, you know? We have fully embraced truly human at Accenture, and I think that that's important, right? It's important for us to have flex schedules. It's important for us to have paternity leave. It's important that we have, you know, extended [?] maternity leave considerations. These things matter to the millennial generation, and they ask. They want to know, as a company, what are we sponsoring at a national level from a corporate perspective? What are we doing on the local level from a corporate perspective? They want to understand how you're going to train them and keep them up to date on skills, and so what are you offering around that? So I think, like, companies today have to be exceptionally dynamic. They're gonna have to spend time leveraging profiles, and again, what's gonna be a good profile that would fit and learn and do well in their environment. You're already seeing that with artificial intelligence. You're already seeing people trying to leverage AI as a way to do screenings initially on what is the right candidate pool for a company. So they have to adapt digitally, right? Because it's already starting, and that's going to be the path longer-term, right? So just--and having a really strong, you know, recruitment cycle from where they're pulling in and how it goes through that automated process. The time frames by which people get through the cycle has to be faster, because people aren't gonna wait, and the market is really demanding right now. What are they gonna concentrate on from a higher institution? What's the type of profile? So, you know, I think today companies really have to be on it. It's really competitive, and it's really hard, but my recommendation is they need to spend some time at first just studying who it is they're hiring. The largest work generation today is the millennial generation already, right? And so they need to understand that profile.Zach: All right, now, companies. Y'all hearing Tamara talking to y'all, okay? And we gave this to y'all for free. Y'all gonna be over there trying to get everything--y'all gonna be out here thinking y'all's company is all set up, you know, that y'all got everything going on, y'all got the latest and greatest, you know, DOS computer, and us millennials, we're looking at you like [haha sfx]. You know, you need to pay attention. That's all I'm trying to say. Tamara, this has been great. This has been great. My heartfelt thanks goes to you for just being here.Tamara: Oh, thank you. Thank you for allowing me to have my voice out there on stuff that I'm really passionate about. I really appreciate that.Zach: Oh, no, no. This is dope, and I know the people, they're gonna love this. Before we go--and you've been dropping jewels this entire conversation, but I want to just give you one more spot to wax poetic if you need to. Any parting words or shout-outs?Tamara: Yeah. You know, what I would tell y'all out there is to be you and fully accept who you are, and spend some time knowing who you are. You know, early in my career I spent so much time on my insecurities, and I allowed that to direct my actions, my communication, my lack of communication with people. If people didn't invite me to lunch, I just sat there being depressed versus being like, "Hey, do you want to go to lunch with me?" Right? And a lot of that centered around impostor syndrome and being uncomfortable in a space because it didn't look like me and with people who didn't look like me. When I really embraced who I was and that I was proud of who I am and what I represent and really understood what I brought to the table, then I recognized I can control that dialogue. I can control the stories that are out there about me, and I want to own those stories, and that, you know, fully embrace you. Be your authentic self and be all of you, from your hair to your clothes into the environment into the story, into the conversation, and do that unapologetically, at the same time with a spirit of humility and respect.Zach: [straight up sfx] Tamara, this has been incredible. We consider you a friend of the show. Again, we thank you for your time, and we hope to have you back.Tamara: I would love to come back, absolutely.Zach: All right, we'll talk soon.Tamara: Thank you.Zach: Peace.

Zach sits down with Rah Thomas, a managing director in Accenture's Infrastructure Operations practice with over 15 years of experience. They discuss his role with the company and what it looks like to create access for other black and brown folks that are coming behind him. Rah also shares a few points of advice for today’s young leaders.Connect with Rah on LinkedIn and Twitter!Search open positions at Accenture.com.Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, again, y'all know what it is. Y'all should know by now, okay? We've been doing this thing for a few weeks, but again, if you don't know, you're about to know. Living Corporate has partnered with Accenture to feature some of their most black and brown--senior black and brown managing directors to share their journeys. My hope is you listen to these, check 'em out, and you peep the links in the show notes to learn more about each of them, including our interview for the day, today, Rah Thomas. Rahnold, Rah, Thomas is a managing director in Accenture's infrastructure operations practice with over 15--that's right, 15--years of experience. His primary focus is digital workforce transformation and infrastructure transformation to the cloud. Okay, that sounds, like, super fancy, I recognize, you know what I'm saying? But just come on. Vibe with me. Rah is also the national co-lead for the African-American employee resource group. He works across all inclusion and diversity workstreams, meeting with senior executives to improve recruitment, progression, and retention of top talent, okay? So this interview is gonna be dope. Listen, okay? He got the insight. He got the juice. He has the technical know-how, the background, and he's plugged into these spaces to have the real conversations, okay? That's why I'm really excited to talk to Rah today. The core to both of these positions is seeing past the optics and standard view of people, process, technology, and then streamlining that into maximizing the real underlying value, okay? With that being said, let's get to it. [pause] Zach: Rah, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Rah: Man, I'm feeling great out here, man. Feeling blessed, feeling blessed.Zach: Amen, amen. So look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Rah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. I'm from the Bronx. New York.Zach: Okay, okay. Yerp. Let's go. [both laugh]Rah: I think by day I'm a managing director or partner for Accenture. I lead some of our diamond clients in technology and innovation, and then I also run the national African-American employee resource group for Accenture. So I'm helping shape our major diversity initiatives.Zach: That's incredible. So look, can we talk a little--can you unpack that a bit? Like, you have--you just said that you're one of the major partners for your diamond clients, and then you said you're the national lead for the African-American ERG. So those are two huge roles. Can you talk a little bit about both of those and what those actually mean?Rah: Yeah. Definitely. Definitely, man. I think--I think that being--on the technical side, I think that's sort of my craft, right? So I do cloud, right? I do service management, digital workplace automation, sort of helping do innovation for our clients. I have about four or five diamond clients that I help sort of push the line of innovation, which is a great segue into what I do from a diversity and inclusion perspective because I help our people of color--I mean, I'm the African-American lead, but I work with the Latinos, I work with our Pride, I work with all of our diversity and inclusion folks, and I help sort of shape that. You know, like, what is it from our targeted's perspective? You know, how do we handle things like escalations [and] things of that nature? So I go across the gamut nationally for all of that.Zach: That's incredible. You know, I love that because--when you talk about the fact that you're working across, because I think while every experience, every non-white experience, is unique, there's commonality in the fact that--and there's commonality in being some type of--just having a non-white experience, a non-majority experience, and so the fact that you're working across there is beautiful. And in fact, what I also think is interesting--and I'm late to the game, Rah. I didn't really learn until I was, like, in high school and college that the black diaspora is spread so far. So, like, when you talk about partnership across the Latinx spaces, so many Latinx folks are also black, right?Rah: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Well, so my wife is Ecuadorian, and my kids--so, like, trying to sort of help my children grow up and stuff like that, it's fierce out here.Zach: It is. It is. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So let's talk about a panel you were on last September for Black Enterprise. You participated in--what they called it was "a real conversation about succeeding while black and the dangers of truth and perception in corporate America." So, again, you keep dropping bombs, and that's kind of been a--that's been really, frankly, a theme across all of these leadership interviews, but can you talk about what brought that discussion and what that discussion was really about? Can you unpack that a bit?Rah: Yeah. I mean, I think--so I know you can't really see me out here, you know, but, I mean, I am a black man with dreadlocks.Zach: Yes, sir.Rah: And I am a partner at the #1 consulting firm in America. Globally actually, right? So the challenges that I had to sort of come against--you know, I got kicked out of board rooms. I've had some real real experiences, and I had to talk about sort of some of the authenticity that I had to bring to the table. Being unapologetically black, however still giving way for comfortability for people to understand my point of view and helping them innovate and move their bottom line. So it was really a dialogue about, you know, how do you do that while trying to break the glass ceiling? Which keeps changing. Glass ceiling, rubber ceiling, concrete ceiling. You know, it keeps changing on you, right? So you're trying to unpack all of that. So it was--it was a good discussion with a lot of successful black men where we delved into that.Zach: Now, wait a minute. Now, you know, Rah, I can't let you just slide that by. You said you got kicked out of a board room?Rah: [laughs] Yeah, man.Zach: You gotta--I need to hear that. I gotta hear that.Rah: Oh, you're [?]? [laughs]Zach: I mean, you--you opened the door. I'm trying to understand how you got kicked--I want to hear that story.Rah: Well, I mean, it was just--you know, I think I'm one of the best at what I do, and I'm confident, and I walked in with my client and I was like, "Listen, this is what we got," and, you know, my client's boss, who was a C-level executive, was like, "What are you doing in the board room here with dreadlocks?" And I'm like, "Well, you know times are changing," you know? And then I started my presentation and he was like, "Listen, you sit down." He was like, "Actually, don't say another word or you'll never work for this company again," and I was like, "What?" And my client was like, "Yo, Rah. Hey, back down a little bit. Back down." So I let it ride, but--and that experience, which was crazy, wasn't the crux of [?]--I mean, it had an experience on me, but it was how my company responded to it that really pushed me to be like, "Yeah, this is what I need to do," because what happened was after that, then my company then came to me and said, "Hey, Rah. If you don't ever want to work in this space again, we don't have to do that. We know you're good at what you do. We know that you can change the world and innovation, so if you don't want to work with this client anymore, we don't have to." And I was like, "Wow, man, that's powerful."Zach: Dang, that's crazy. So the client was talking to you crazy, and then Accenture was looking back at the client like [haha sfx].Rah: Yeah, just like that. Exactly like that. [laughs]Zach: "Haha." [both laugh] That's wild. So okay, okay. Well, look, I know that was--well, it really wasn't a non-sequitur, because you opened the door, and I wanted to hear about how that happened. Okay. So in my experience, in the instances where there are black and brown folks who make it to senior executive roles, they're often leading in, like, a technical specialty, right? So they solve--this is from what I've seen, Rah. I'm not saying this is the way of life. I'm saying this is something I have observed. So they observe a particular problem, and they solve a particular problem in a particular way. So I believe your role is a little bit different in that you're having to lead strategic conversations and work to connect the dots across a variety of specialties to deliver the most effective solutions. Can we talk a little bit about your experiences in such a connected and integrated role and what you've learned in navigating these spaces?Rah: Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest thing about it is--right now I think folks can't see the future. Folks cannot see the future right now, and if you look at it, 50% of the Fortune 500 companies over the past 15 years have gone bankrupt. So right now they're all scrambling, right? Normally they'd like to look around 5, 10, 15, 20 years in advance, and they can't see that. At any given time, a Google or an Uber can pop up and change the game. So right now all of these senior executives are really looking and saying, "Hey, we need to absolutely tap the best of people. We need to tap the best talent period. We don't care if it is white talent. We don't care if it is black, Latino, Puerto Rican, Asian, whatever," right? "We need the best talent, because we don't know where that next idea is gonna come from." So that's primed for diversity right now, right? That's where we live. So I think that that's sort of at the crux of where we're at right now. So yes, I understand from a technical perspective I'm good at what I do and what I have to--I have to reinvent myself every three or four years, so I gotta keep being on the edge of things, but more than ever I have to--I wear the extra hat to inspire other people to be authentic so that they can unpack that untapped potential, because they might have the next great idea, and it might come from a hard-working single mother who's been doing 15 years working at Target trying to, you know, do 1-2-3 at Target as a manager, raising three or four kids in the Bronx, and that single mother might come up with the great new idea that runs the world. So it's, like, understanding that. You have to think differently about how you do business.Zach: Now, that's incredible. You're so right, because with technology brings a certain level of, like, a democratization of innovation, right? Like, it's not--it's not just gonna be reserved for this certain group over here. The access is opening up, and I really--I'm curious about this. What does it look like for you, being in the position that you are, to--what does it look like for you to create access for other black and brown folks that are coming behind you? Like, what does it look like for you to lift as you climb, and how does that practically work in your position?Rah: I mean, I think--yeah, I mean, like I said, I started the call with "I'm blessed," right? I mean, I'm blessed because God has given me the opportunity to actually have the ability to create opportunities for people, right? I mean, which is--it's amazing, and I actually--you know, I got put on--I advise corporate CEOs, and I'm advising our CEO, I'm advising our C-suite and letting them know, "Hey, listen, you know, this is what a population is feeling, and this is how a population wants to evolve," and they're, like--and they're listening. They're actually coming to the table, and they're like, "Wait, we had no clue," and I'm like, "Yes." So it's enlightening. It's enlightening and humbling.Zach: That's incredible. That's awesome. So, you know, it's interesting--to that point--we're seeing shifts in how we're being represented. I would say as millennials continue to expand their corporate footprint. We're seeing the largest group of black and brown leaders in the workplace, right? So, like, millennials, we're not the youngest, sexiest kids on the block no more--sexiest kids? That's mad problematic. You know what I mean though. What three points of advice would you give to young leaders today?Rah: Hm. All right, so I would say--three things? I would say be authentic, be vulnerable, and have the dialogue, okay? But I almost have to unpack that, right?Zach: Please.Rah: So I say "Be authentic." You gotta say it with your chest, right? Be unapologetic. Be black or Latino. Be whoever you are, because it is--it is that thing that might propel you to the next--you know, next plateau. "Be vulnerable," because sometimes when you share some of these deep stories and you work through--I started sharing stories about my family, and all of a sudden I got--you know, a Jewish person in Middle America is just like, "Wow, wait a minute. That same thing happened to me." I'm like, "Whoa, really?" So you start doing that. You start connecting with people. And then have the dialogue, 'cause--I'll bet it might be uncomfortable, but you have to have the conversation. We owe it to our ancestors to have the conversations and build these connections, because sometimes people don't actually know. That's what ignorance is. The definition of ignorance is not knowing, right? So people don't actually know, and if you could sit down--if you can muster within yourself to sit down and have that dialogue, man, you can really, really change the world.Zach: Man. "We owe it to our ancestors." Hold on. [Flex bomb sfx]. I had to drop that. Man. Come on, man. "We owe it to our ancestors," man. That's real, man. So let me pause for a second, 'cause we have these questions--you said earlier about being unapologetic in who you are. Do you have any practical examples of coaching that you've given somebody--I'm not asking you to out nobody--around, like--what is some advice you would give in terms of how folks can be more unapologetic? Because we've had episodes--and the reason I ask is we've had episodes in the past where we talk about respectability politics, right? Like, the concept that if you behave, dress, speak a certain way, that majority folks will forget that you're not in the majority, that in some way that is some type of covering or camouflage for you. What does it look like for you when you give coaching and advice and direction and guidance to black and brown folks at Accenture? What does that look like for you to encourage them to actually be themselves? 'Cause you've talked about a little but, but I want to hear--Rah: You want the meat, right?Zach: Please. Please.Rah: [laughs] You know, I think it's--it's actually different, right? And I'm learning. I want you to--you know, I'm not the full expert on it, because I think that I have to be humble and learn on it, but I think that there's--it's different for black, and it's different for Latino, right? For black, which is one in the same, that--it's more about the visual aspect, right, and bringing your authentic self from a visual perspective, and then from Latino, you have to recognize that it's bringing your authentic self from a listening and an audible perspective, right? So I try to make sure that as I'm coaching folks I try to take in multiple lenses, but I feel like me doing what I do can unconsciously give you the ability to do what you do, and I think--I was a keynote for one of these speakers at a women's empowerment conference, and I went there, and I wore my Ecuadorian jersey, and I had my suit coat on, and people were like, "Wait, what is he doing?" And I'm like, "No, I'm being me. I'm wearing my Ecuadorian jersey, and I'm wearing my suit coat, and I got my [?] on, and I'm me," right? But it was so amazing. I even--I talked about my father being in prison. I talked about some of these crazy things, and people were like--you know how many people came up to me and were like, "Wow! Wait, you're in corporate America and you've got family members that are in prison?" Or "Wait, you're in corporate America and--" Pow. I mean, I had transgender, I had everybody come up to me saying, "Wow." Like, "I want to talk to you about my situation," and I was like, "Pow." But it was me being able to be myself that unlocked other people's ability to be themselves, if that makes sense.Zach: No, it does, and you're absolutely right, Rah. So I know for me, coming in--I'm one of the first men in my family, on my mom's side of the family, to start and graduate from college, and I'm one of the few people in my entire family in corporate America. So not really seeing a model of what--how to practice authenticity, you know, in my immediate familial circle, coming into the workplace and seeing an example of that, it is empowering. And, like, you will never forget--you'll never forget those experiences or those--when you see it, and so that's incredible. This has been dope. Now--Rah: I was gonna say it's almost like the line, you know, "when keeping it real goes wrong."Zach: Yes.Rah: We have to almost combine that with recognizing [?], like, "when keeping it real goes right."Zach: Real talk. Well, a lot of us--a lot of times we think that, you know, if we do something too wrong it's gonna be like [record scratch sfx], right? You know what I'm saying? Like, [?], right?Rah: Yeah. [laughs]Zach: But it's not, right? Like, we actually have--we actually have a lot more power than I think we've been in some ways conditioned to believe, right? Rah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.Zach: Okay, so last--so I got just a couple more. Now, you've also talked about the fact that you sit down with executives. You're having these conversations. They're actually listening to you. Based on your experiences, what would you say that organizations who are seeking to improve their engagement with black and brown talent--what are some things that they need to be thinking about and considering as they--if that's a pivot or a move they're trying to make as they seek to be more diverse and inclusive?Rah: Yeah, definitely. So I think the first thing is there is a lack of trust from the black community with corporate America across the board. So I think the first thing that you need to do in order to start building that trust is transparency. So when we start talking about the demographics, we start talking about compensation, we start talking about numbers, we start talking about, you know, what are our targets to make sure we can change things, that level of transparency is the start of a conversation, right? It's not the end all, like, "Hey, we published numbers and demographics. We're there." It's really around the start, and then the next thing is that we need to start talking about "Hey, what does good really look like?" "What does the utopia of the world really look like in corporate America, and how do we really achieve that?" And making sure that we're--we just did a leadership conference this past week, and I learned something completely new about transgender and the fact that they're struggling with bathrooms. And I'm like, "Wow." Wasn't even thinking about it, right? So it's--like, we have to listen to our people. So yes, be transparent and publish your information and start getting that level of transparency, but then second is sit down and listen. And when you start listening, "What?" [both laugh]Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And it's funny because--and by funny I mean it's frustrating, and often times infuriating, that, you know, when black and brown folks--when non-white cis heterosexual folks, when they're sitting down--able-bodied, non-able-bodied, disabled people--when folks in the minority speak up and they share their experiences, like, there's a huge level of emotional labor that comes with that. So I agree with you. It's imperative that if you're gonna have folks who have the courage to share something, it's not enough just to kind of nod and be like, "I empathize." It's about "Okay, well, how do we meet you and figure out ways to actually make sure that our culture is inductive to you being comfortable and thriving here," right?Rah: Yeah. So can I drop--I'm gonna drop one more on you right here.Zach: Come on. [both laugh]Rah: You're pulling me out. "Bring him out, bring him out!" [both laugh] So I think that it's not enough to be unapologetically black. You have to also accept those that are authentic in their world when it conflicts with yours. Okay, I'ma throw that back one more time.Zach: Say it one more time.Rah: [laughs] Right? It's because you can't let other people's inability to comprehend your greatness define how you're gonna be great, but you have to give them a way to be themselves as well. Because if we can't understand their opposition, they will never be able to understand our plight. So we have to come down to the table and say, "Listen, I need to talk to you, and I understand that everything you stand for is against what I stand for, but let's sit down and have a conversation." And when you do that you're like, "Wait, we've got more in common than we have apart," and that's when you start building bridges and connections.Zach: I love that. And I would imagine, Rah, because of the role in which you sit--you know, you're a MD for diamond clients, so you're having to work with all types of folks every day.Rah: Yes, sir. Yeah.Zach: And so it's about that relationship building. I'm gonna go off script one more time. [both laugh] So when I think about your brand--and I know what you look like, right? I looked on LinkedIn. I've seen the video where you talk about your hair and you talk about your faith. You know, what does it look like to manage--to manage relationships with folks who are not expecting a Rah when you walk through the door? And really what does it also look like when you--considering your position and your influence and your authority, what does it look like to really manage relationships with folks who might not be comfortable with a black--I'ma just say, frankly, with a black man telling them what to do or telling them what he thinks frankly. Like, what does that--what does that look like? How do you--like, I'm really curious about that, because I worked at Accenture some years ago--and I only knew, like, a handful of MDs at the time, and none of them were [?], so I'm really--like, this has been a question I've actually been wanting to ask just for myself. I've been wanting to know this personally. Like, what does that look like? 'Cause I'm just--I just believe that the folks that are running the diamond accounts--I'm sorry, the folks that are these executives, they're not used to--I just don't think that they're used to a black person telling them what they should be doing. So I'm just--I want to know. I really do.Rah: Yeah. So I gotta answer that in two ways, right? So first I gotta say sometimes I walk into a room, and I sit down, and I try to plug in my laptop, and I crawl under the desk and plug in my computer, and you get up, and I've had people be like, "Hey, can you go fix the projector for me?" And I'm like, "Wait, I'm actually the dude who's presenting." Right? [both laugh] You know? Right? So you have to--you can't get discouraged by that part, right? So that's the one hand that you have to experience, and you have to--you can't be like--you can't get mad and get your aggressions out. You can't do that, right? Because then I've also experienced a white male Catholic, you know, dudes that invite me to a male empowerment in the middle of America, and I went in there--I was like, "Wait, why is he asking me to go here? This could be dangerous." Zach: Straight up.Rah: [laughs] Right?Zach: They'd be like, "Hey, we'll go meet you out in the middle of the woods." You'd be like [never have the chance sfx].Rah: [laughs] Right? But I went out there, and I walked into this meeting, and there was about 20, 25 white males, and they walked up to me and they gave me a hug. And I was like, "What? What is--" I'm from New York. "What's going on here?" Right? And they started sharing stories, and they started giving me insights in my life. Like, I travel a lot, and they were like, "Yo, hey, if you travel a lot, you know, you should call your daughter on FaceTime so that she doesn't get disconnected from you." I'm like, "Wow," and I'm like, "Wait, why am I connecting with these white male Catholic Middle America Republican folks more than I'm connecting with some of these people that are in the hood that are trying to do different things," right? So I'm like, "Wait." You have actually have to sit down and have the dialogue. Zach: Hm.Rah: Pow. [both laugh] Zach: Rah, man, you are fun, man. I'm loving this. [both laugh] Okay, this has been dope. Before we get out of here, any parting words or shout-outs?Rah: Yo, this is dedicated to the youth, respectfully dedicated onward and upward. [?]! Sorry, had to throw that out there. But yeah, man, I just--I appreciate it. I do this for the people, and, you know, I just appreciate you having me on the show man.Zach: Man, I appreciate you as well, and man, look, we gotta--you know, we dropped a couple of Flex bombs. You know, I've been working on this soundboard, Rah, so I'm trying to, like--I'm trying to, like, add a little pizzazz to the show, you know what I'm saying? So I'm also gonna drop these real quick. [air horns sfx]Rah: Oh! [both laugh] Oh, man.Zach: Oh, man. Rah, we consider you a friend of the show, and man, I hope we can have you back.Rah: Definitely. Definitely, man. Thanks for having me, man.Zach: All right, peace.Rah: All right, peace.

Zach welcomes career designer, speaker, career coach and business coach Latesha Byrd of Byrd Career Consulting to the podcast, and they announce a new weekly show called The Link Up with Latesha! She'll be sharing real deal advice on how to level up professionally in your career every Saturday, so don't forget to check back on the weekend!Find out more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBCheck out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBRead the Flexin' In My Complexion story!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, this is when I typically say "You know how we do," I say something like, "You know what we got going on. So excited to have y'all today," "Ah, ah, ah," "Yearp." I do something, right? But, you know, I'ma keep it a bean with y'all. I'ma have a whole bunch of sound effects. We're gonna have a great time. This is a random Saturday podcast. We don't drop episodes on Saturdays. So we want y'all to have a good time with us, you know what I mean? So we're gonna have a good time. I've got the soundboard, you know, and of course who would I be--that's right, you know it's coming--if I didn't have a special guest? Today we have the one and the only L.B., A.K.A. your favorite coach's favorite coach, A.K.A. I've been on TV a few times, A.K.A. I do this full-time, A.K.A. I have my own podcast setup, I don't really need nobody's help, A.K.A. Ms. Independent, A.K.A. Latesha Byrd. Latesha: What's up, Zach?Zach: What's up, Latesha? How are you doing today? Welcome to the show. Latesha: I'm doing well.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, look, you know, I gave a little quick intro, but for those of us who don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?Latesha: Yeah. So my name is Latesha Byrd. I am a career designer, speaker, career coach, business coach, but I like to call myself a career designer because what I'm passionate about is helping my clients design lives that will allow them to show up in their best and truest and fullest selves at work and beyond, so--yes. Yes, yes. So I started a company, Byrd Career Consulting. It is a consulting agency focused on professional development resources for professionals that are in the corporate space. So we provide resume writing, LinkedIn writing, interview coaching, salary negotiation, strategy sessions, but most importantly career coaching. So I provide career coaching to professionals of color that helps them to just level up professionally. What I'm passionate about is making sure that everyone is happy at work, that they are fulfilled, but not only that but they're able to, like I said, bring their truest selves--show up as their fullest self to work, get paid, and be able to live the life that not only they want, but the life that they deserve. So I am extremely intentional with helping my clients through self-discovery, career empowerment, and then also personal development. I started my company about four years ago. We work with over 800 professionals in a variety of industries. Some of my clients have landed at some pretty great companies such as LinkedIn, Google, Amazon, Deloitte. Just a few to name, and I've had clients that have even gotten over $60,000 salary increases. So before--yes, cha-ching--so before I started my company I worked in recruiting, and I managed recruiting for a public accounting firm headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina, where I'm at. Shout-out to QC. Zach: Shout-out to QC.Latesha: Yes. And as a recruiter, I manage recruiting for about five offices up and down the East Coast, making sure that the companies had innovative recruiting strategies, that they were out getting top talent. I worked directly with leadership as well on a lot of diversity and inclusion initiatives. And as a recruiter, I realize that there is a huge disconnect--there is a huge disconnect between top talent looking for good for jobs, and also good companies that are having issues that--that they claim they were having issues with finding top talent. We've all heard where companies or recruiters will say they can't find good talent, specifically good diverse talent, right? Which we all know is not true, and so I said, "You know what? Why do I meet so many professionals with great skill sets, with great work experience, that are just dope, and they're having issues with getting connected or getting their foot in the door with these companies? Why are companies complaining about not being able to find good talent?" So I started my company really as a way to bridge the gap between those dope professionals with these companies that were claiming that they had a hard time with finding good talent. So that's pretty much me in a nutshell.Zach: I love that. And, you know, what I'm hearing is you're doing a little bit of everything, right?Latesha: Just a little bit. [laughs]Zach: Just a little bit, you know what I'm saying? And it's interesting, 'cause a lot of us, we think, you know, "I'ma quit this job," and, you know, "I'ma do this," "I'ma do that." You know, "I'ma get what I need to get," without any type of help, and, you know, meanwhile--you're seeing all this in your resume and your online brand, you know, they're looking back at you like [haha sfx], right? Like, you need some help, okay? Like, you need to figure out how you're really gonna get all of this together, and that's where, you know what I'm saying, Latesha--where you come in.Latesha: Yeah, that's right. I meet a lot, a lot of talented people, and when they're telling me about their experience and when I look at their resume I'll just be like, "Hold on, now. Hold on, Holiday." Like, "You're leaving out so much great experience." A lot of times--this is what I've realized, is that we are taught that we should not brag, we shouldn't boast, we shouldn't really talk about what it is that we bring to the table, but when it comes to going after these jobs and getting these coins, you have to make sure that you're really setting yourself up for success and, with that being said, investing that--investing back into yourself, because that's gonna pay off dividends in the future. So you're right. It is important to have some assistance as you are looking to level up professionally, whether it's a career coach, whether it's a resume writer, or whether it's investing your time, you know, and listening to podcasts such as Living Corporate. Shameless plug.Zach: [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right, and, you know, it's a really good point, because a lot of us I think--and we talked about this a few different times over through various guests and topics around the idea that, like, you know, sometimes we think if we get an education, we get an extra degree, then people are gonna look at our resume and go, "Oh, he has XYZ, or she has XYZ in this subject field. We're gonna automatically hire them." That's just not the way it works. Latesha: Not at all.Zach: Right? Meanwhile, we're spending, like, all this time and money and energy getting all of these certifications, but we're not--we're not telling our story well, right? We're not telling our story well. We're upset. We're looking over at our job market like [what more do you want from me sfx], you know? And I-- [both laugh] But yeah, no, you're absolutely right that, like, it's more than a degree, right? And it's more than just having it. You have to figure out a way to present yourself.Latesha: Right, right. And you have to. You have to figure out a way to present yourself and position yourself in a way, whether it is in person or online, and be able to speak to what it is that you bring to the table in a way that will resonate with recruiters, hiring managers, or just your network in general. One thing that I tell my clients all of the time is that people hire people, so if your job search strategy is just about applying to job after job after job, you're not doing enough. You've got to get from behind the computer and really build your network and actually reach out to people. The best way to get a job--well, I won't say the best way. The quickest way, or the most popular way, that positions are filled is first through employee referrals. All day. So if I decide I want to go work at a company like Google, I need to get connected with some people that work at Google, and that might take you not just applying online and praying that, you know, they find your resume in the stack of 300, but actually reaching out to people that work at that company. So when it comes to my coaching, I always, always, always first ask my clients to be able to, like you said, tell your story. Being able to tell your--what I call your career--figure out what your career brand identity is, and how do you communicate that? And then once you figure that out and you get that confidence in who you are and what you bring to the table, that will then allow you to actually be able to reach out to those or build relationships with those or go a little extra mile to get into those positions that you are truly interested in, and that you deserve too.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Dropping bombs, yo. Listen, y'all, real Flex bombs are not the ones that are multi-syllabic, you know what I'm saying? Got you looking like Michael Eric Dyson. Real Flex bombs come from real talk. Latesha, thank you so much. Big facts all around for your head top, as it were. Okay, so, you know, you and I have been chopping it up, having a good time, whatever, you know what I'm saying? You're talking about what you got going on, but, like, what--and yes, what you're talking about is all facts of course, Flex bomb worthy, all of that. You know, whatever whatever, [but] it's a Saturday though [and] we're dropping this podcast. Like, what's going on? I feel like you got some news for me. I feel like I got some news for our listeners. Like, let's get to it. What's the deal? Why don't you tell 'em?Latesha: So I will be launching a segment on Living Corporate called The Link Up with Latesha, where [air horns sfx]--aye. Where I'll be sharing some real deal advice to all of the listeners on how to level up professionally for your career.Zach: Yes! Now, look here, what are we talking about on The Link Up with Latesha? Like, what, like--like, what's the format? What's going on?Latesha: So it's gonna be really a variety of things, and this is gonna be coming from a career coach and a former recruiter's perspective on how to get through the job search process, how to find your personal value--I don't want to say how to find it, but how to identify it, how to go after your dreams, how to really think about the life--how to think about the life that it is that you want to live and how to actually go out and get that, but from a recruiter's perspective, I'm gonna be sharing a lot of things that I've seen job seekers do wrong, not just from applying to interviewing to negotiating salary, but also for new employees. When you're starting your career, how do you show up to become a high performer? But I'm gonna be bringing, you know, kind of my own style to it. I'm very, very direct. I'm real all day long. I don't know how to sugarcoat, so I'm just gonna give it to you straight.Zach: I love it. So look here, this is what Latesha is really saying. Latesha's got the inside scoop. She knows what she's talking about. She knows what these businesses want, and also as a consultant she knows what these businesses need to be doing, so you're getting the best of both worlds, you know what I'm saying? She's gonna help you take your brand from [who? sfx] to [Kawhi "what it do baby?" sfx], you feel me? Like, she's gonna take you from, you know, one side to the other. Latesha: Right.Zach: And I love that. I'm so thankful to have you on the show, have you a part of our team, have you a part of this--have you a part of this platform, and, you know, y'all need to make sure y'all pay attention on Saturdays. Every Saturday, the crack of dawn, it's gonna be the show. It's gonna be Latesha. Y'all are gonna be checking her out, okay? So every Saturday be sure to check out--Latesha: I said every Saturday. And Zach, can I just share, like, some of the topics I'm gonna be talking about?Zach: Oh, absolutely. Do your thing.Latesha: Yes, yes, yes. So just a few things I want to talk about is "That's Not My Job, how to set boundaries at work, how to love your job when you actually hate it, how to play the playing field--like, why you should be looking for a job even if you're happy, how to keep your stamina up while job searching, [and] how one of my clients actually got a new job in three months, and she only applied to 12 jobs. So these are some of the things that I want to talk about. What to do if a recruiter ghosts you, 'cause that's a common thing, right? Ghosting is real, not just in the dating life but also in the professional life.Zach: That's facts.Latesha: And what to do if your company isn't taking your desire for growth seriously. Like, I had a friend that said she had a meeting with her boss and basically asked "What does my future look like here at this company?" And the boss said, "Oh, just keep doing the same thing." Needless to say, she is no longer with that company, but, you know, this is gonna be about career empowerment, career growth. Like I said, really leveling up self-discovery, just finding who you are, being true in that, going after what it is that you truly deserve. So that's, you know, a little bit about what I will be talking about on The Link Up.Zach: All right, y'all. Y'all heard it here first. We got a new show. Just to recap, we got a new show hosted by Latesha Byrd, career coach, former recruiter and D&I extraordinaire, okay? Resume writer, branding/personal branding extraordinaire. That's right.Latesha: All the things.Zach: You know what I'm saying? All the things. She's flexing in her complexion and on y'all and on me.Latesha: Ooh, I like that. Flexing in my complexion. Did you just make that up?Zach: No, no, we got--that's a whole business. You know, you got the black girl--in fact, y'all, look in the show notes. We're gonna have the story about the woman--the young girl rather, excuse me--who made a whole fashion company with the phrase "flexing in my complexion." It's very cute, very great, and empowering to our mocha sisters out there and to all of our black and brown women out there. Anyway, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you check us out. The only way you're gonna be able to check out the Living Corporate podcast--excuse me, the only way you're gonna be able to check out The Link Up with Latesha is on the Living Corporate podcast, so make sure you follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and really just anywhere that podcasts are--if you just Google Living Corporate, you know what I'm saying, we're popping up, okay? We out here. We out here, okay? We in that--Latesha: We outchea.Zach: We in that--we outchea. We in that SEO like [Cardi "blat blat blat brrr" sfx], okay? We letting everybody--we hitting everybody, okay? We're on every podcasting platform.Latesha: Errbody.Zach: Errbody, okay? And yeah. So look, we got the domains, okay? So you go online, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, okay? Livingcorporate.--we've just got all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com, 'cause Australia just--they're not letting it go. Australia, we love y'all. One day we're gonna have enough flex to actually come and get that domain. One day. I don't know, maybe.Latesha: No, no, no. Like, legit going to Australia.Zach: But go to there though? Yes, we're gonna go to Australia.Latesha: We're gonna pull up.Zach: We're gonna pull up, you know what I'm saying? But yeah, so we out here is my point. Latesha out here. You know, she's--she and I got this new thing going on, so I'm trying to give her something. She's giving me something. We're kind of doing, like, this give and go thing. It's really fun, even at the end of the show. So what else we got going on? Oh, yeah. Make sure--Latesha: [inaudible] shout-outs.Zach: Oh, yeah, we do got shout-outs! That's right. Okay, so--'cause I'm trying to do this new thing, right? Like, every now and then. Like, not every episode, but I just want to give a shout-out to those people that listen to the show and, you know, people being in the Living Corporate DMs talking about, "Keep doing what you're doing." People hit us up on LinkedIn. People talking about, "You know, we just love what you got going on." So shout-out to the engineers and the accountants and all the STEM folks. Shout-outs to my people out in the DMV. Shout-out to our top five demographics. So we're seeing you New York, Chicago, Houston, Atlanta, you know what I'm saying? Dallas. We appreciate y'all, you know? Shout-out to the West Coast. You know, we're not really popping out there like we want to so, you know, somebody out there come on--like, the tech people, y'all show us some love, man. You know, we be out here. We be making moves, you know what I'm saying? We're not--you know, I'm not drinking kombucha every day. It's not--you know, it kind of unsettles my stomach, but I like it, you know? So, like, give us some love.Latesha: It's good.Zach: It's delicious actually. It's just--it just doesn't sit well with me. Anyway, shout-out to all of our hustlers and entrepreneurs. Shout-out to our creatives, you know what I mean? Shout-out to my college students. Shout-out to the Gen Z'ers, you know what I mean? Latesha: [?].Zach: Uh-huh. Shout-out to the Buckys, you know what I'm saying? The White Wolves. The allies, okay? For those who don't know Marvel, like, you know what I'm saying, like, the folks out there who are not as melanin-rich as some of us but still care and empathize, you know what I'm saying, with the black and brown people and [?].Latesha: We love our allies.Zach: We love our allies, you know what I'm saying? Where would we be without allies, okay? We're a minority. We need people. We need help, okay? We need help. Help me, you know what I'm saying? Like, you gotta--we need it, so shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to, you know what I'm saying, the older white people, you know, who listen to the show, you know, trying to figure out just what's going on. Maybe they got a little nervous, they wanted to check it out. Shout-out to my coworkers. If y'all are listening to this right now, shout-out to y'all. I appreciate y'all. And shout-out to the people that give us 5 stars, you know? Shout-out to the educators. Who else am I missing? Who am I missing, Latesha?Latesha: I think you said entrepreneurs, but side hustlers. Like, those that have a 9-to-5 and a 5-to-9. We see you. I was there. I know how it is. And then--so shout-out to them.Zach: Yeah, shout-out to y'all, man, and shout-out--you know, just shout-out to all the listeners. We appreciate y'all, excited for y'all to venture with us on this new leg of our journey, and we'll catch y'all next time. Until next time, this has been Zach.Latesha: And Latesha.Zach: And you've been listening to Living Corporate, and make sure y'all come back and check us out on--now we've got--my goodness, we've got episodes on Tuesdays, we've got episodes on Fridays (editor's note: Thursdays), and now we're gonna have episodes on Saturdays because we've got the new show, The Link Up with Latesha. Aye. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach sits down with Nap Bar founder Khaliah Guillory to discuss the concept of being well-rested at work. They also talk about the genesis of the Nap Bar and the workforce of the future. Additionally, Khaliah shares a few interesting statistics relating to the topic.Check out the Nap Bar! Connect with them on their socials here: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookConnect with Khaliah on a variety of platforms! LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookRead the WSJ article mentioned on the show!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, check it out. Y'all know how we do, okay? We have real talk in a corporate world. We try to center the experiences of black and brown voices and identities in the workplace, and we do that by talking about evergreen topics, but we just want to make sure that we're talking about them from a non-white point of view. So that's where you got me, you got Ade, and of course you have our guests, and who would we be if we didn't have a great guest today like we always do? Khaliah Guillory. Khaliah, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Khaliah: Yo. What's going on, Zach? Thank you so much for having me on. I'm absolutely honored to be here with the Living Corporate crew. Thank you for the invite.Zach: Oh, no, no, no. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Khaliah: Sure. So I am a lover of humanity. Love me some people. I love to connect with people. I love '80s music. I have it on rotation, in the catalog, on a regular basis. I am absolutely obsessed with sunglasses, watches, and socks. If I could get away with just wearing that all day, especially in Houston in the middle of summer, I would. Zach: Wait a minute. Hold up now. [sound effect]Khaliah: Oh, we're gonna have so much fun. And I--you know, that's what I do, and I always like to lead with who I am from a personality standpoint. And the meaning of my name means Chosen One, because that ties into what I do. I think sometimes and often times we get caught up into what we do and we think that's who we are, but if we don't lead with who we are, then how can we really be able to connect the dots to understand what we do? So, like, I mentioned my name is Khaliah Oni Guillory, and that means "The Chosen One," and I have chosen to transition from a C-level executive position at a Fortune 500 company as of November 18th of 2018 to really solve the 411 billion--yeah, I said a b--billion dollar U.S. economic loss that the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation. Zach, just guess how many days that was. If you equated--I know you've got a consultant brain, so if you can quantify how many days--working days that is--how many would you guess it was?Zach: You said 400 billion?Khaliah: Uh-huh, with a b.Zach: Hours?Khaliah: Days.Zach: Days.Khaliah: How many days?Zach: I don't know. Like, maybe 7--500. 700. 700's my final answer.Khaliah: Try 1.2 million. 1.2 million days Americans called off because they were tired and they were sleep deprivedZach: Now, look here, y'all, I don't want y'all judging me for that terrible math, okay? I'm a change management consultant. I have Excel and other tools to help do the math for me, and--Khaliah: You've gotta use your tools. You've gotta use your tools.Zach: You know, 'cause you asked me on the spot. I kind of halfway understood the question. I'm excited. You know, I've got all the energy around me. Y'all don't be judging me. Sound Man, keep this in. Don't this edit either. I want y'all to see me in my--you know what I'm saying, my vulnerability, okay?Khaliah: Listen, that's what it's about, man. That's what it's about, but look, you jumped out there. You were close.Zach: I was not at all close. I said 700, and I didn't understand the question. You looking at me talking about [sound effect]. I'm like--you said 1.3 milly.Khaliah: 1.2. Zach: Oh, my goodness. And see, I'm wrong again. But anyway--Khaliah: It was probably 700 in a small town like Sugarland. Boom. See? See how we just changed the narrative? You've just gotta change that narrative.Zach: Okay. So okay, look, all the jokes aside, give us the stat again. Give us the stat again.Khaliah: $411 billion is the total amount the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation for economic loss. So from an economic loss, the U.S. lost $411 billion due to sleep deprivation, and that equated to 1.2 million working days that Americans called off because they were tired. Zach: Wow.Khaliah: So we can peel the onion back a little bit more. I'm doing the air quotes. Remember when it was "on trend" to take mental health days? And it probably still is. I was one of those people that took--I said, "Man, this is smart. Once a month [?], and it's a mental health day, and I'ma do whatever I want to do, and basically what that meant is that I slept all day because I was exhausted. I was working 80 hours a week, and that was the one day of the month that I gave myself permission to actually rest, which is the craziest thing in the world because we should be able to rest every single day.Zach: Absolutely. And so--so then let's talk about that. So that's your passion, right, and I think it's a really--just a really good segue into our topic for the day, right? Our topic is wellness, and specifically this time the topic is around the concept of being well-rested. And considering your passion and the research that you've done around the lack of restfulness that we have in American culture, you know, what have you been doing with that passion? I know you haven't just been crunching numbers. Like, what have you done? Like, what's the--what's been the output of you doing this research? And, like, what are you--you talked about the fact that you're passionate about solving this problem. What are you doing to solve it?Khaliah: Yeah, man. So it's this thing called Nap Bar. It's the first white-glove napping experience in Texas that offers on-site and in-suite napping services for communities that we serve. And so this really came about April of last year. The wife and I were both--she's still in corporate, but I was in corporate at the time, and we both had and still have side hustles. I changed my side hustle to my main hustle. She still has a side hustle, but if we can, we would carpool into the city, and this particular day we had about an hour and a half to kill between our meetings, and I looked at her and I was like, "Man, this is my nap time," because I'm an avid napper. I nap in my car on a regular basis, and my nap was kind of--it was gonna be a little strange. So she looked at me and was like, "Why don't you Google "naps in Houston?" It's Houston. There's got to be a place where you can pop in and take a nap." I was like, "You know what? You're right. That's dope. I'm sure there's a place." A two-minute-later search? Zero. Zilch. Nada. And I looked at her, like, in disbelief, like, "How is it this is the fourth-largest country in the world, and we're the most innovative--one of the most innovative cities--" I said countries. "The fourth-largest city in the country, and we're one of the most innovative cities, hence we've got this Innovation Corridor that's being curated, but yeah, we don't have a place for people to rest? Wow." And she looked at me and was like, "Well, why don't you create it?" And I was like, "Yeah, okay." So the next day I go to Facebook, 'cause that's what you do. You go to Facebook and you ask your friends. I created a poll and I was like, "Yo, how many people out there napping during the day? Like, in your car or in an unused conference room or, heck, in, like, the--just wherever you can find some peace and quiet," and 99% of my friends, who are a hodgepodge of professionals, entrepreneurs, stay-at-home parents, these cats admitted to napping at work.Zach: Oh, yeah. At work?Khaliah: At work, and I was like, "Boy, they're savages." The savagery is real. So then I was like, "Okay, that's just my scope," right? "That's my lens." So then I started doing more research, and I tell you, Zach, I just kept going and going and going, and I found [?] sleep. There's a sleep foundation that does a ton of research of sleep, and 52% of Americans surveyed--like, 10,000 cats were surveyed last year, and they admitted--52% of them admitted to napping at work. Now, imagine how many people who were napping, but they just was like--Zach: Oh, yeah. You know they're lying.Khaliah: "Yeah, I'm not admitting this. They're gonna find out and they're gonna come get me and fire me." Like, imagine. So then I just continued to do my research, and then I stumbled upon--the CDC had a stat out there talking about, you know, driving drowsy is equivalent to driving under the influence. So I just kept going and going and going. I was like, "Okay, clearly I'm not just solving a problem. I'm solving the root of a problem with Nap Bar."Zach: You are, and you know what? You know, it's wild because, like you said, there's a stigma against, like, even talking about the fact that you might be sleepy, right? You know, you're over here thinking like--you know what I'm saying? You don't want them--you know, you turn around, [and] you slip out in a moment of weakness that you--you know, you might take a nap from time to time, and then you've got the [sound effect]. You know, they're coming for you. And it's just--it's wild though, because I also think really honestly--like, shout-out to you, because really believe it or not--and I'm sure you already know this--like, you're actually pushing against, like, the capitalistic, like, culture and, like, foundation that we work on, because part of just this work-centric culture that we have is just pushing your body until you break, right? Like--Khaliah: Yeah. And you know what's odd about that? Like, this is Living Corporate, so I'm sure people will get this line I'm about to say, but it combats everything--the fabric of people's culture, corporations' culture that they say that they do, and I'll give you an example. Corporate social responsibilities. How many--if you Google that word, and you Google--or you do a Ctrl+F and find how many times they put "people-centric approach" and how their employees mean the world to them, but if they really adopted a people-centric approach, well, then why are people being criticized for taking PTO? And why are people getting down to the last week of the year and they have a whole month of vacation that's unused and they're gonna end up losing it because they can't roll over but 10 days to the next year? Like, if we really, truly took a step back in our culture as a whole, as a society, then why aren't we pushing the envelope back on that? And that's exactly what I'm out to do. I'm out to be that little voice that's gonna be loud and obnoxious and ferocious so that we can pivot and transition into a true, true-true-true holistic approach to the meaning of living. There shouldn't be a reason why I don't enjoy going into work, and there shouldn't be a reason why studies show that the first four hours of Mondays are the most unproductive, because people have the Sunday blues. They think about what they have to do on Monday and then they check out, [then?] they end up staying out too much late on Sunday Funday.Zach: There was an article that just released on The Wall Street Journal about that that said, like, Sundays are the new Mondays, right? It's, like, basically the anxiety of--we'll make sure to put that in the show notes too, but, like, the anxiety of your work week, it, like, bleeds over into your Sunday to the point where you can't even enjoy Sunday anymore. And I'll just be transparent that, like, typically for me Sundays are like--are really like a mini-work day, 'cause I'm prepping for the week, right?Khaliah: Yeah, right, and that shouldn't be the case. You should be able to--you should be able to prep for your work week while you're at work. And I get it, we gotta get ahead and we have to do what we need to do, but it would be so much sweeter if you were prepping on a Sunday for your work week but if you knew on Monday you would be able to get that time back because your employee, or your employer I should say, included in your employees benefit package a health and wellness that includes a nap every single day for 26 minutes, and it's up to you to decide if you want it or not.Zach: Straight up. You're absolutely right, and it's so funny, right? Because, you know, companies are--companies right now, like, if you notice, like, in the conversation of work-life balance--and this has been--like, this discussion has been happening for, I don't know, like, the past six or seven years, but it's, like, transitioning from work-life balance to, like, work-life blend or work-life optimization or work-life harmony, and, like, really what they're trying to do is, like, just have your life be more and more just about work, right? Like, you're having a good time, but you're working. Like, "Hey, we want you to have a good time as you--you know, as you work." [both laugh] You know, "We want you to take care of your family and, you know, shoot, go on vacation, you know? [?]"Khaliah: Yeah, but, like--but even think about that too, Zach. Like, I remember going on vacation, and going on vacation for a week was, like, death the next week when you got back to work because you had--you're in email jail. You can't even send any emails because your mailbox is full, and then you don't even want to consider checking your voicemail because you're already getting those stomach-aches thinking about all that you are so behind on. Now you're regretting taking your vacation, which you earned. Like, we've got to reposition and reverse engineer our thought process around how we work. Like, there's a thing called intentional work, and there's some innovative companies that are doing it just right now. You know, you've got the Googles of the world that have napping pods. You've got Ariana Huffington, who nearly died because she passed out and hit her--like, passed out and hit her head on her desk due to sleep deprivation. So you have these advocates, but then we're still so far behind the 8-ball on how do we really truly pivot. And then, you know, it's funny because I had a call, a conference call, with a Fortune 5 company before this call, and I was telling them like, "Hey, we've got to get Nap Bar on site." I've got this calculation I walked them through, and it showed that annualized nationwide, based on 3,300 employees, they are losing $16.5 million of unproductive loss of work per employee. So that's the total roll-up per employee. That's how I got that number. And they're sitting here saying, "Well, I don't know how we can afford to get the nap [zone?]." I'm like, "Did you not just hear me?"Zach: Nah, you can't afford not to have these nap [zones?]. And wait a minute. And you said--hold on, now, 'cause you're not gonna just slide past that. You said you were on a phone call before this interview with a Fortune 500 company?Khaliah: I mean, listen, I'm out here taking my shots, man. I'm out here taking my shots.Zach: I see you.Khaliah: I'm out here taking my shots. 'Cause, you know, you get this. It's just--it's just basic math. I just need one person to say yes, you know, and then my demand is gonna outpace my supply, and then I can add another zero, and then another zero, and then another zero.Zach: I'm saying. Listen, I'm right there with you, okay? You're preaching to the choir. I just wanted to make sure that the people heard what you said, 'cause I heard you, okay? [both laugh] Okay, okay, okay. So check this out. We've been talking around this a bit, right, but, like, workplace pressure, like, it's real for everybody, and it's even more real for people in America and of course abroad who are in an ethnic minority and may be battling impostor syndrome, even harder than those who feel the need to prove themselves. And to be clear, like, I'm them. I'm people. But the reality is if you're not getting rest, you won't be good to anybody. So even if--so let's just say this, right? So, like, even if taking a nap is not immediately possible for some of the folks who are listening to this podcast episode right now, what advice would you give to professionals of color to practice restfulness in those 10- or 11-hour work days?Khaliah: You know, I think the biggest piece is we have to be the change that we want to see in the workplace. So it's vocalizing, being an advocate for rest in the workplace. There is a ton of research. People can hit me up. They can email me. I will gladly send over what I've collected. I'm in the middle of a business case with another company here in Houston that's gonna really result some telling data. It's almost gonna slap people in the face if they say "No, we don't want to give our people naps at work." I mean, this business case is gonna be--it's constructed in such a way to where it's gonna be hard for people to say no, but I would say how I got to this business case and a collaboration with this particular organization is because an employee, who had only been there for 3 months, a minority man--he was in his 1-on-1 with his manager and his manager said, "Hey, how has the past three months going?" And he said, "Man, it's been quite an adjustment, coming from college to the corporate world, and I'm working 60, 70 hours a week, and, you know, it's been quite an adjustment. I wish there was a time I could just, you know, take a nap." And his manager said--well, I'll say he wasn't a manager, because this was a leader comment. You know, managers manage people. Leaders lead. And this leader said to him--after he said that he said, "Hm. Well, why don't we discuss that on your next 1-on-1? Do some research, and let's talk about it next week." And so he did, and I had a meeting with him two days ago. What's today. Today's Tuesday? I had a meeting with him yesterday to button up the business case and the pilot. So I think the biggest advice I could give is just real life experience that I just experienced just as early as yesterday is we have to be vocal about what we want. And of course we have to be professional in the way that we deliver it, and I always--when I worked in corporate I always prided myself--when I presented a problem, it's to have the solution in my back pocket. So when my leader said, "Hey, okay, well, how are you gonna solve it? Boom, here it is, and here's all the research," right? And, you know, that's why I can say I have 10,000+ hours of research. Malcolm Gladwell says if you--if you want to call yourself a subject matter expert, you have to have at minimum 10,000 hours of research in your respective field. So when I said--as I mentioned, like, I can rattle off stats from here between here and Tokyo, where they do have napping pods, but I don't have to because I think we are as a society, when people hear the word "rest" and "nap at work" they'd initially be like, "Oh, my God. That would be awesome," but then they'd immediately think, "Well, is that gonna hold me back? Am I not gonna get up for a promotion because I'm taking a nap at work?" No. That's a shift that me and my team will come in, because it's more than just a nap. It's an experience. But on the flip side of it, we educate on why--what are the indicators for sleep deprivation. So going back to your original question, Zach, we just have to be more vocal about what we want. We need to present a--not just a problem, but also a solution, and not be afraid to get creative with it.Zach: Okay. Now, listen here, y'all. Y'all heard it straight here from Khaliah, A.K.A. KG Speaks, A.K.A. [?], A.K.A. Your Favorite Sock Wearer, okay? I'm gonna give you that Flex bomb right here. You know what I'm saying? Okay, no, you're absolutely right. In that story though--it's interesting. So you said a black man. Did he have a--was the boss a white dude? Khaliah: I don't know the ethnicity of the leader, but no, the employee, he wasn't black. He was a minority. He was an Asian-Pacific Islander. Zach: Yo. Shout-out to the--man, listen here, shout-out to the Asian-Pacific Islander, the person of color raising his voice, and just to keep a bean with you, I need to go ahead and have that leader on this--on Living Corporate too, 'cause I'm kind of shocked that he turned around and said, "Well, do some research," 'cause, I mean, that's not--I don't feel like that's a common experience. That's dope that he did that, and I absolutely believe that we should be speaking up and using your voice. I think that's an incredible story.Khaliah: We need more of that, and that's why I shared it, because we need more of that on both sides of the table. We need more of that from a leadership standpoint and more of that empowerment from an employee standpoint, because--you're right, and not only that, he sent me an email--the employee said, "Hey, it's a go, and my actual--my leader wants to come and check it out too," and I was like, "Please. Let's go. Tell me when and where. Tell me what time." I know where, just tell me when. [laughs]Zach: Boy, 'cause let me tell you--let me tell you just my experience. Khaliah, let me walk up in somewhere and tell my often-times-not-minority boss that I want to take a nap at work. Boy, they'd look at me like [sfx]. It's like, "What?"Khaliah: You are killing it with these sound effects. Like, I want to come over and see, like, what software you're using, 'cause you are killing it. Zach: Man, I be looking--I'm serious though. You just looking at them like [sfx], you know what I'm saying? Khaliah: But you know what's interesting too is that, you know, from a leader standpoint, for the leaders who are listening on the phone and who can even--you know, who can low-key share this with the leaders who perhaps might need to hear this, but here's a stat that perhaps will change people's minds. Millennials will be occupying, by 2025, 75% of the workplace. 75% of the workplace in five years and some change will be occupied by millennials. And what do we know about millennials? Well, out of the survey that I saw, 53% of them stated that they value health and wellness above work, spirituality, and even their friendships. Health and wellness #1 over work, spirituality, and their friends. So if I'm an executive at a corporation, and I know in the next five and a half years that folks I have on my bench right now, that I'm grooming, they don't--they value work, but it's not more than their health and wellness. I need to put in place Nap Bar today so that when they're in the C-Suite in five years we're already advanced into VR. We've got virtual reality going in Nap Bar. I mean, there's so many different things that companies can do today to set them up to win in 2025 when 75% of their workforce will be millennials.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and, you know--and that's the thing--so as you know, I'm a consultant, and one of the things I've really been passionate about at my job is the workforce of the future, and we're talking about, like, dealing with the workforce of the future. First of all, the workforce of the future is happening--is today, but the idea of the fact that, like, folks will leave--this generation of people, and not even thinking about Gen Z's gonna be doing. I don't know what they--Khaliah: Listen...Zach: Listen. Ayo. My siblings in Gen Z. I be looking at them like I don't know--I'm scared. I'm scared of y'all. Like, y'all--ooh. But, you know, we will leave--Khaliah: They're reckless, but they're courageous with it.Zach: Oh, no. I love it. No, it's not a knock. It's just, like, a "Wow." Like, I'm really--I'm not prepared. [both laugh] But, like, you know, millennials though--and I would venture to say it's gonna be even more so with Gen Z--like, we will quit a job, you know what I'm saying?Khaliah: In a heartbeat. In a heartbeat.Zach: They'd be like, "Hey, Bobby, if you don't stop taking these naps, we're gonna have to let you go." He'd turn around talking about some [sfx]. You know?Khaliah: Yeah, you know why? Because they were already researching on their phone the companies that are innovative and progressive that probably already have nap pods. Zach: Listen, they're gonna be pulling up just like that Indeed commercial that just dropped with that white lady. She got passed over for that job, and--I don't know if you've seen it yet. It's wild. It's crazy. But anyway, she gets passed over for the job, and, you know, everybody's clapping. It's clear that she got passed over for a job. She's over here smirking at her phone. Indeed app already talking about "Interview secured." I said, "Ooh." And I oop. [sfx]Khaliah: That's funny. Now that's funny.Zach: It's super funny, but you're right. You know, it's going to be a critical--you know, it's gonna be a pillar of human capital management, of talent management, this wellness piece, and it can't just be "Hey, you know, you can take time off, but you've got to come work--" No, like, it needs to be explicit, intentional, purposed policies that reinforce true wellness.Khaliah: Totally.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been a dope conversation, and you know you've already been a friend of the show, and I didn't even--you know, I didn't even give you your air horns at the top for the dope piece that you wrote back in Season 1 about coming out of the proverbial closet. Man, shout-out to you. [sfx]Khaliah: Aye. [imitating sfx]Zach: You know what I'm saying? Like, we didn't even give you your props at the top. So, you know, again, you're a friend of the show. You're appreciated here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Khaliah: Man, shout-out to the tribe, the folks who show up, the folks who--and here's the thing. People show up. They don't have to show up, so when they do we have to ooze with gratitude for that. So I'm absolutely oozing with gratitude for my tribe for showing up, and not just for showing up, but for also holding me accountable for the likes, for the shares, for the--just the "atta girl"s, I mean, those things matter when you literally jump off the cliff and you have no idea how to open your parachute, but you can trust that your tribe, your network, will catch you before you fall. So shout-out to all of the folks who have ever liked, commented, shared, sent me an encouraging DM. I appreciate you so much, and I'm sending that vibe and that love right back out to you. And for those of you who are sitting on a billion-dollar idea that's gonna solve a trillion-dollar problem, I say "Go." Just go. You're not gonna have it all figured out, but you'll be able to figure it out along the way. And assemble yourself an advisory board team yesterday, because that's gonna be the people who will be in the trenches with you, that will roll up their sleeves with you and fight 'til the end to make sure that--that they believe in not just you, but in your vision.Zach: Come on, now. Khaliah: Yeah, man. That's the motto. That's the motto, man.Zach: I don't even have anything. I just got finger snaps, you know?Khaliah: That's the motto. Like, my legit motto is "Why duplicate mediocrity when we can borrow genius?" So why not surround yourself with genius all around who have access to the things you don't have access to or who have embarked on a journey that you're looking to embark on. Hey, it's the--it's the clear definition of working smarter and not harder.Zach: No, absolutely. Now, of course we're gonna have all of your information in the show notes, but why don't you go ahead and let us know where we can find you, where we can connect with you, where we can learn more about you?Khaliah: Bet. So for Nap Bar-specific, go to www.napbarnow.com. There you can also follow us on Twitter @NapBarNow, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook we're at NapBarHou, and for anything and all things KOG Speaks, which I am a certified diverse speaker, and I speak on diversity and inclusion, performance, leadership, change management. You can catch all of my work there at www.KOGpassion.com, and then my handles on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook is KOGSpeaks. Zach: Come on, now. Now, look, this has been great, and that does it for us, y'all. So thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Now, please say the dash. Now, look, Khaliah, it's wild because, you know, we own actually all of the Living Corporate variations. So, like, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net. We've even got, like, livingcorporate.org. We don't have livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia still has livingcorporate.com. Khaliah: They ain't letting it go. You're not gonna negotiate the 5,000--Zach: I don't know how brolic the brand would need to be for us to walk up to a continent and be like, "Ayo, come off that domain." I don't know, but maybe one day. That's a go. I feel like the day that we can--we can Deebo Australia for our domain, that's the day--Khaliah: That's when you've arrived.Zach: That's when you've arrived.Khaliah: That's the day you've arrived.Zach: Right, I'm saying. Okay, okay. So look, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us on anything, you know what I'm saying? Our DMs are wide open. Like, we're just trying to talk to you, you know what I'm saying? Now, look, this has been Zach, and you have been talking with Khaliah Guillory, okay? Founder and CEO of the Nap Bar. Make sure you check out all of her information. It's gonna be all in the show notes. Do not forget. Listen, I'm talking to y'all right now. Sound Man, stop the music. Listen. I don't want y'all to listen to this and, like, be like, "Oh, okay, here goes Zach with the sign-off again," 'cause see, y'all see I'm flipping it up. This is not, like, an insert. I'm talking live right now, okay? I want y'all to stop, look in the show notes, okay, and click it. I ain't trying to be aggressive with y'all, okay? I'm not trying to do nothing extra, okay? I'm not dangerous, I promise. I'm just telling you, you know what I'm saying, get the information. Make sure you learn about the Nap Bar, especially if you're in Houston, and get yourself some rest. Am I tripping, Khaliah?Khaliah: Nah, not at all, bro. Not at all.Zach: All right. All right, well, dope. Well, look here. Until next time, talk to y'all soon. Love y'all. Peace.Khaliah: Peace.

Zach sits down with Guide co-founder Mike Yates to discuss the future of learning. Mike shares what he thinks are the top three things that are changing within the world of learning. He also lists a few ways he thinks organizations will need to adjust for future workforces.Connect with Guide! We've got their website and socials: Twitter, IG, FacebookTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. And today we're talking about the workforce of the future, okay? So you've heard some conversations that we've had with Tim Salau a few times about the future of work, and, you know, it's just a really prominent topic because the workforce is changing, and the dynamics and the cultural makeup--not just from an ethnic perspective or sexual orientation, but from a generational perspective--is shifting, so we're really excited to talk about the future of learning with Mike Yates. Mike taught in a traditional school setting for five years before entering his current role, where he designs curriculum, plans projects, and motivates students to break all of the rules. His passion is in change and finding the next set of large innovations to the classroom through the use of adaptive learning technology and artificial intelligence. The world is rapidly changing and innovating, and it is his belief that schools must follow that trend. So with that being said, Mike, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Mike: Thank you so much. I'm really good. I'm excited to be here. I'm actually a pretty--I'm a regular listener, so I'm excited to be on this podcast.Zach: Stop playing. You listen to Living Corporate?Mike: Yeah. I'm a listener. I listen to it through Apple Podcasts, and I love the--I love the podcast. I actually saw stuff about Living Corporate via LinkedIn or Twitter. I cannot remember where I saw it first.Zach: Okay.Mike: Yeah, yeah, but I started listening a while ago. So, like, I've recently listened to the one--like, Ramadan at Work.Zach: Whaaat? Stop playing.Mike: Yeah, yeah. Respectability Politics, yeah.Zach: That's awesome. Okay, well, hey. First of all, we're already--we're honored, but definitely certainly flattered and happy about the fact that you enjoy the show. So look, we gave a little bit of an intro for you from the top. For those of us who don't know you, what would you mind telling us about yourself?Mike: Yeah, yeah. So one of the things--like, I just saw this meme on the internet that said, like, "I wish I loved somebody the way that people from Houston love being from Houston," and I'm one of the people that makes that true. I love being from Houston. That's where I'm from. So, you know, NBA Finals time I'm a little hurt, 'cause I thought the Rockets should have played better, but--Zach: Yeah, man. It was tough, right?Mike: Yeah, yeah. But I'm from Houston. I'm from a family of educators. My mom is a teacher. I basically grew up in school. I grew up in the classroom. I am married. I have four amazing children, an amazing wife.Zach: Oh, man. Congratulations to that.Mike: Thank you, yeah, yeah. Our house is nuts.Zach: I'll bet.Mike: Yeah. [laughs] It is. But that's one of my favorite parts about my life, the grind that I have for them. And so my passion is education. I have tried to avoid the career field for as long as I could, because when growing up I thought to myself "Oh, you know, educators don't make any money," but the gravitational pull of education was too strong for me. I became really curious about it after I graduated from college and I got into planning education programs for the United Way in-between Austin and San Antonio. Once I started doing that, I entered the classroom as a teacher and fell in love with the field. I'm also an educator that is convinced that everybody is lying when they tell you that you can't make money in education, things like that. "You can't be happy in education." "You can't have work-life balance in education." I am seeking to create trends within education that show you that all of those things are possible.Zach: Man, that's incredible. And, you know, I really respect--first of all, you know, there's articles--I feel like you see articles every other month about the importance of even having just black male teachers in the classroom, so shout-out to you, shout-out to educators. Shout-out to my wife who's an educator, as well as my--Mike: Your wife?Zach: Yeah, man. My wife is in education. She's been teaching for some years, and then my mother is a principal of an elementary school. She's been in education for 32 years.Mike: Wow, that's great. That's phenomenal.Zach: Yeah, man. And then, you know, my in-laws, they come from a--there's a deep family of educators there as well. So yeah, man, shout-out to educators. Shout-out to those who, like, reach back and are really trying to shape the future of the world. Like, it's so undervalued and just underappreciated. So yeah, definitely a shout-out to you, and a shout-out to your family, man. That's awesome. So look, let's talk about this. Let's talk a little bit about the future of learning. So in your profile, right, like, when people look you up, you know, you talk about the world changing and, by relation, learning methods along with it. So what would you say are the top three things changing within the world of learning?Mike: So that's a great question, and I think that the #1 thing is--the way I would describe it is the urgency. There is going to be a shift in the way that people attend school, and that's what I mean when I say urgency. Like, how you get information and how quickly it comes to you. So right now, especially through K-12 education and even into college, education is sit and get, right? It's like, you trust that this person has the content knowledge to teach you, and so you sit and listen to lectures and take notes, and hopefully you retain enough to prove that you should get a job later in the future. The future of learning is different. The future of learning is gonna be on-demand. Learning is going to come to the person. The execution that you can see today would be, like, a Western Governors University where all of their courses are online. You can take them at your own pace. You have one mentor that you interact with your entire time, whether you're in undergrad or grad school, and you can get your college degree that way. The second thing that I think is changing in the world of learning is quite honestly students. One of the saddest things to think about in education is the idea that, like, education is the last frontier in the United States of America that remains without innovation. You walk into any public school, you will see desks in rows, you will see--you might even see chalkboards that have been there since the '60s, '70s, '40s in some cases, right? It is a model that is antiquated and has not responded to the change in people, the change in interest, the change in, like, you cannot educate students the way that you used to, right? And then the last thing that I think is changing in the world of education is technology, technology in and outside of the field. You know, artificial intelligence, machine learning, like, we have figured out how to make machines and devices do more for us today than ever before. When we were in school--I don't know if you remember this, but my teacher used to always tell me, "Mike, you have to show your work when you're doing math, because you won't always have a calculator with you."Zach: Yes. [laughs] Wow, wait a minute. Pause right there. Yo, that was a lie. Like [inaudible]--Mike: Right?Zach: The teacher definitely said you're not always gonna have--they'd be like, "What are you gonna do if you don't have a calculator with you?" Like, there's nowhere--you always have a calculator with you now. You have a phone.Mike: Always, yeah. I have a calculator, a media company, a personal assistant. I have [inaudible].Zach: Everything, yes.Mike: Everything, right? And that's what's so beautiful about the future of learning, right? Because up until now teachers tried to prepare students for the existing work world, but now you have a movement of educators and a movement of schools that are trying to prepare students for jobs that don't exist yet, right? And the calculator--you know, the iPhone is the perfect example. Like, no teacher in 1995 would ever believe you if you would have told them there's gonna be a flat glass device that you're gonna touch, and you can call, it can talk to you, it can be a calculator, right? They would never believe that. So I am fortunate to have been raised by an educator, you know, being my mom, who would tell me, like, "We don't know what the world's gonna look like when you go to work, so you have to be in your head. You have to imagine. You have to always look forward." And my mother very much so made me a futurist, so all I do is think about "What's the world gonna be like 10, 15 years in the future?" And that's why I think technology is so exciting, and it's--you know, if I'm talking about, you know, the last major change, you know, adaptive learning technology is going to do more for students than the best teacher ever could, and I--you know, adaptive learning tech is--if you don't know, it's technology that--like, let's say I'm in a math application. If I'm in 6th grade, it will give me a set of questions that are at a 6th grade difficulty. If I do well on those questions and prove to the app that I know 6th grade content, it will automatically move me up to 7th grade math. If I don't know a 6th grade concept, it will move me down to 5th grade until I master that concept, it'd move me back up to 6th grade and let me keep mastering and moving up. That is so much more efficient than even your best math teacher that it will change--in the future, that will change the role of the adult in the room. All of a sudden, you no longer have to disseminate information, but you have to create projects to help students use that information. You have to create real world connections and learning experience. And honestly, it helps teachers get to the part of their job that they love and away from the part of their job that they hate, which is lesson planning and lectures.Zach: Yeah. Man, that's incredible. That's incredible, and it's just so interesting because--so my father also--he also taught math for a little while as well, and, you know, he was on Living Corporate last season, and he talked a lot about the various jobs that he had, and one of the jobs he had was actually--he was a teacher's assistant, and he also taught high school math, and he was talking--he's a bit of a futurist himself. He was talking about, like--this was back in, like, '90. Like, '89, '90, and he's talking to these kids, and he's like, "Y'all, one day you're gonna have machines that are gonna be doing--a lot of these manual processes that we're doing, one day machines are gonna be taking over. They're gonna do these things." And, like, at the time all of his students were like, "What are you talking about?" "No, that's, like, way, way later in the future." And he's like, "I'm telling y'all." And, like, he was just talking about it, but he was just kind of, like, waxing poetic. He wasn't, like, really trying to, like--you know, he was just talking, but he wholeheartedly meant it. You know, it's rare though to have folks who can see, right? So yeah, that's definitely a blessing to have, folks in your life who can talk to you about those things. You know, so what would you say your top three predictions are for how organizations will need to adapt to future workforces in light of--you know, in light of what you're sharing about the future of learning, what ways do you think that organizations, like, you know, professional organizations in any industry--in oil and gas, in technology, in healthcare--how do you feel like these organizations are gonna have to adjust for future workforces?Mike: Yeah. So I think that they're gonna have to be comfortable with remote workers. That's my first big prediction is, like, they're gonna have be comfortable with remote workers, because today's internet allows you to do so much more than ever before. You know, like, now you have IT companies that no longer have to be in the building with you and can take over your desktop or your laptop and y'all are not even on the same Wi-Fi network. Like, that's how advanced we are. So if that's possible, then, you know, oil and gas companies or software companies or even, like, the National Basketball Association, who could be playing a game in Toronto and reviewing replay footage in live-time in Secaucus, New Jersey, right? So I think that they're gonna have to be comfortable with remote. The next big prediction that I have, and this is a really, really big one, is that in the future of work, the college degree will lose value. And I don't mean it will be completely worthless, but I do think because we came up in this generation where everybody sort of forced us to go to college, and I do think that there's somewhat of an oversaturation of bachelor's degrees in the marketplace right now, but what I think is because of things like lambda school and because of things like University for the People, Western Governors, there will be a pressure on any university that is outside of the top 20. If you're not in the Ivy League or if you're not a top 20 school that produces the best doctors and lawyers, you know, all of those positions that require advanced college degrees, then you are going to struggle to get students to sign up for your school after the next economic collapse. Like, things have been going financially, economically in this country pretty well for the last nine years, and my big prediction is in the next five to ten years there will be--economic collapse is the wrong turn, but there will be an economic recession, and when that recession hits--like, my alma mater, Texas State University, I don't know if students will enroll there and take on debt when they could go to a lambda school for free, or they could go to University of the People and get a bachelor's degree for $2,000. Like, you know? So I think that the college degree requirements are gonna have to change, and my last big prediction about what the future needs to adapt to is--it's the scary one. It's not [inaudible]--Zach: [laughs] I hear you hesitating. Go ahead.Mike: Yeah, [laughs] it's robots. Like, it's--there is a robot that can open doors. Like, there are companies, like [Boston?] Dynamics, that are designing robots that can deliver packages, right? And so I think we're gonna have to get used to--and this may be, you know, 20 to 30 years down the line, but there may be a robot that walks up to you and greets you and drops a package off at your door, right? And I think that, you know, direct-to-consumer business is gonna change. I think, like, Amazon--we'll see Amazon finally have to compete with, like, Old Navy and other brands, because everybody's gonna be able to use drone delivery and robot delivery to drop packages off at your door within the hour. So I think that, you know, that big artificial intelligence in that sense, like robots, drones, those are gonna be really, really important in the future of work, and companies are gonna have to start bending and altering the way that they operate.Zach: So, you know, first of all, everything you're talking about--like, Mike--and I'm not trying to poo-poo you--I don't really hear anything crazy in your predictions. Like, I think they're all very realistic. Like, so first of all--especially when you start talking about schools, because we're already seeing that today, right? Like, we're already seeing it, like, in MBA programs. If it's not a top 20, top--lowkey top, like, five, ten to five, you're not gonna get--you know, 'cause some folks think that, you know, you get an MBA--and we talked about this, we talked about this--this was early in season 1. There's a misconception that if you go and you get a graduate degree, then that automatically lines you up for paper, and it's like, "Eh, not necessarily," and it's because--it's because of the economic demand. It's also because of perception, but, like, there's no reason to--there's no reason to not assume that the trend that we're seeing within grad schools, we won't just start seeing that in, like, universities, and we do see that in universities already, right? Like, we already know that there some undergraduate degrees that are worth more than others, right? Like, we know that already, but, like, it hasn't been, like, super stark yet, but it will be one day.Mike: Yeah, it will be. Absolutely.Zach: Man, that's incredible. So, you know, I think this really, like, leads well into your current role as the chief operating officer of Guide. So, like, what can you talk to us about when it comes to Guide? Like, what can you share?Mike: Man, Guide--Guide is amazing. So Guide came together because a couple of people online were all having the same conversation about education. I was--you know, about two months ago, I sort of--you know, this is my first year outside of the traditional school system. I work for--my day job is at a school called Alpha, which is a school that uses adaptive learning technology in place of direct instruction, so we don't have any lecture. There's no classrooms. Our school looks like an open co-working space. It looks a WeWork for kids, right? And once I got out of the traditional school system, I had this opportunity to pick my head up and sort of look around, and I saw, like, there was all this stuff that I was missing. I saw that I was misusing LinkedIn and that I didn't know how powerful it could be. I didn't really know how to build community. So two months ago I started doing that. I went hardcore on LinkedIn. I went all in on, you know, Twitter and community building, and Tim Salau and I sort of started crossing paths because we were both posting about the future of learning, the future of work, sort of interacting with each other on LinkedIn, until one day Tim reached out and was like, "Hey, man, we've got to talk about this thing I'm working on." So Tim, myself, and our third co-founder Taban got on a call and talked about what has now turned into Guide, and Guide is a social learning app that is tailored towards high school students specifically to teach them life skills. We're going to create a new media called Snapshots, which are 30-second courses where a creator, any content creator, can come to our platform and break down transferable life skills into 30-second segments so that students can digest them and so they can remember the steps, go back and rewatch, and start to learn skills that are gonna benefit them in the future of work. So LinkedIn Learning is sort of, like, the adult version of this, but, you know, to get a certificate in LinkedIn Learning you may have to spend 12-15 hours doing that. Students [inaudible]--yeah, students don't have the capacity to think that way.Zach: No, nah-uh. We don't have the capacity to think that way. [laughs]Mike: Right, yeah, so imagine being able to build a course where a student could spend 15 minutes and get the same amount of material, the same amount of value? And now you have high school students, community college students, early college students, that are starting to build up this connection between skill building and the future of work, because--so I think the official number is, like, 65% of all, like, elementary school kids are going to fill jobs that currently don't exist. With that being the future, you have to build up this sort of tool-belt of skills that you can use in multiple ways. Ones like public speaking, ones like community building, ones like adaptability, ones like creativity, that are not as easily taught in skills. So that's what we're doing with Guide, and my role specifically with Guide is obviously managing the personnel that we have. We're sort of--we're in startup mode, so we sort of do it all, but I specifically create teacher content. I manage all of the curriculum on the app. I do strategic partnerships. And so our founders team works really, really close together. You know, Tim is doing most of the UX and user experience design. Taban is our CTO, and he's actually code--like, hard-coding the app and everything like that, so we have a phenomenal team that's ready to do some phenomenal work. So I'm super excited about Guide, and I'm glad you asked me about it.Zach: Man, that's awesome. No, no, no. I'm glad that you guys are working on it, and I'm really excited for what it's gonna be. Where can people learn more about Guide today?Mike: So you can learn more about Guide at guideapp.co. That's our website right now. We have sort of, like, a "Coming Soon" page. Our website is currently under construction. Our communications lead and our content team is working really, really hard to get the website up in the next couple of weeks. You can also follow myself on LinkedIn. You can follow me on LinkedIn or Twitter. My Twitter handle is @justmikeyates, like j-u-s-t Mike Yates. You can also follow and connect with Tim. We are constantly posting about Guide. We're posting resources in the--for all the educators out there, in the coming weeks we will be posting some teacher toolkits and some quick-start guides so that you can use Guide and our Snapshots in your classroom, and we'll sort of, like, break down what a school day would look like with Guide to where you don't have to abandon all of your curriculums trying to teach life skills. You can do it within the course of your math class or your history class or your English class.Zach: Oh, I love this, man. It's so disruptive, but, like, for all the right reasons. It's not like guys from California trying to disrupt, like, your local bodega. This is, like, something that we need. This is awesome. Well, look, man, you know I could keep on going, but let's go ahead and wrap up, man. I want to give you a second though. Do you have any words, any shout-outs for us?Mike: Yeah. So one of the things that--sort of my goal in terms of online communication, the goal that I had set for myself for online communication has been to tell educators out there this very simple message, and that's that you need to be building a personal brand. You need to be on LinkedIn, active, and interacting with other business professionals and other fields as well as professionals in education, because #1 there's a larger conversation being had about disruptive education technology, about the future of learning and the way that that's gonna look. I want you to be a part of that. I want you to be a part of shaping what school looks like in this country forever. The other thing is that school districts all across the country quite frankly are running out of money and teachers are getting laid off. It doesn't pay enough for you to put all of the time and the passion and the heart that you do into your classroom on a day-to-day, so you should have a plan B, and that plan B can be your personal brand, because everybody's looking for expertise that comes from the classroom, it seems like at this point. So I want teachers to know that. And in terms of shout-outs, I want to shout-out my wife, Alex. She holds it down like no other. My wife a stay-at-home mom and we have four kids, so she is--she's working a lot harder than I am. So shout-outs to her and my kids and the whole Guide team. Shout-out to Tim, Taban, Monale, Jonathan. We are doing some phenomenal work.Zach: Man, that's awesome, man. Well, look, that's gonna do it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Mike Yates, learning futurist and COO of Guide. Peace.

Zach sits down with Joe Price, the co-founder and general manager of Grown Up Sports, to talk about GUS Leagues, and Joe shares a few physical wellness tips for professionals, particularly people of color.Check out GUS Leagues!Read the articles mentioned on the show:Why Your Chair Might Be Killing YouOffice Exercise: Add More Activity to Your WorkdayThe Future of Wellness at WorkThe Future of Employee WellnessTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, look, Ade and I have had several guests on the Living Corporate platform. We've had, you know, celebrities, musicians, authors, CEOs, but we haven't had my brother on the show. In fact, to be more specific, we haven't had my brother-in-law on the show, okay? And today we actually have a special guest, Joseph Price. Joe, what's up, man? How are you doing?Joe: Hey. I'm doing well, Zach. Zachary. How are you?Zach: I'm doing great, man. So look, today we're talking about wellness, and I think it's just a really great fit for you to be the guest to talk about wellness because of your background, your current passions, and just your level of expertise in physical and personal health. I mean, I'm not saying that you're, like, a doctor, but I'm saying, like, you got--you know what I'm saying? You've got some credentials.Joe: I am not a doctor, that is correct. [laughs] Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to chat a little bit about what I do and my experience in the space.Zach: Man, that sounds awesome. So look, without further ado, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?Joe: So for the sake of the podcast professionally, I own and operate an organization called GUS Leagues, which stands for Grown Up Sports Leagues. We're an adult sport and social club. We're based in Houston, Texas. Adult sport and social club means we essentially facilitate sports leagues, tournaments, some corporate wellness and other fun activities around town. So a little bit of sport, a little bit of social, and that's what I do by profession.Zach: That's awesome, man. So look, as you've already alluded to and as I said at the top, we're talking about physical wellness for corporate professionals. Let's talk a little bit about what physical wellness means to you. And I recognize that's a very broad statement, so, you know, you can take that and kind of wax poetic however which way you want.Joe: Yeah. So physical wellness obviously can be pretty broad. What drew me to the space specifically is that I'm into team sports. It's what I've done for fun. I've fostered community throughout my childhood, adolescence, and adult life, and I think that type of engagement is still something that people should do as they get older, and it's a good way to connect with other adults that sometimes can be a useful way to connect outside of just happy hours, drinking, getting dinner. You know, there's a way that you can improve yourself and still connect with people as an adult, and that's been a good way for me and something that I promote to our companies, to our friends, and how I personally connect with people. So that's the part that speaks to me about what we do. I still think it's very important--a good way for people to connect, period.Zach: Man, nah, straight up, and you're absolutely right that every time--well, let me not say every time, right? You don't want to speak in absolutes, but more often times than not, especially in consulting, when you talk about kicking it with somebody or, like, doing something fun, it often revolves around getting a drink, getting something to eat, right? Especially in consulting. They talk about, like, the consulting 15, right? Like, you pick up weight just traveling and eating out all of the time, and so I think that you're 100% right that finding other avenues to connect and build relationships as opposed to kind of, like, staring down a plate of food or staring in-between a bottle. So let's talk a little bit more about Grown Up Sports, right? Like, what's the story behind the company? Why the name? All of that. Just talk to us a little bit about it.Joe: As I alluded, we do grown up sports, and I--we'll just give you a little bit of background about how we even came to call ourselves that, 'cause I find the story interesting. We--me and my business partner, John, started this company about seven years ago. I know John because we both played intramurals at the University of Texas in Austin. That's where we went to undergrad. He worked for RecSports, was a sports management major, and he actually interned for a company that was similar to ours that was based in Austin and helped them with their original expansion out to San Antonio, and so this is something that he was passionate about from when he was forming a passion about anything. So when he was, like, 21. That was his focus. We both moved to Houston. He came here for law school. I came just to start my professional career. My family is from Houston. And we were looking for a similar community to that that we had when we were an undergrad playing intramurals. Couldn't find anything that we felt met that need in the space, and so--he had been wanting to do that for quite some time. We decided--so a little bit of background about me. I was working with an education technology start-up on the side, helping them with an expansion in Houston, so I had a little bit of entrepreneurial experience, and so when he was looking to start this he was looking for a partner, and he comes to me with the idea. We go through his business plan. I tell him it's awesome. I don't have time for it. Some situations arose that made it seem like the time was right, and so we decided that we would try to start this company, and then we decided we wanted to start it--we're both basketball guys, and so this was during the time when the NBA was on a lockout--Zach: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.Joe: Yeah, and so what you're seeing on ESPN at the time is a bunch of leagues, and we wanted to start with a basketball league. Leagues that are becoming popularized with these big names, and it's, like, the Goodman League, the Drew League. You know, something that has a name that pops, something you want to [?], like, name our company. We really wanted to do, like, recreational leagues in Houston, and so we had a name, that was Houston Rec Leagues, and then as we started thinking a little bit more long-term it was like, "Oh, that sounds a little bit limiting." So, you know, [had] a moment of clarity if you will [?], and it's like, "What could we name our company that rolls off the tongue?" And it was like, "We need something that's gonna pop and speak to people like the Drew League," and so I was thinking of what we were planning to provide, grown up sports. GUS. GUS League. You know, "It's gonna--it's gonna roll off the tongue. People are gonna love it," and, you know, it doesn't really work like that, but that was kind of the motivation behind why we [?] named it that, and it also gave us the opportunity if we ever wanted to expand our horizons to other geographic areas that it's not so limiting in scope as Houston Rec Leagues might have been.Zach: I love it.Joe: So that's a little bit about the name, yeah. And even our motivation--so this was--for me, this is how I make--[?] my closest friends, you know, I know 'em through sports. How I met my business partner, I met him through essentially, you know, our company, but for college students and intramurals. So this was just a natural thing for us to do, and it's nice that we've been able to find a way to make some money off something that we actually--we use the product ourselves, and we were looking for a need--the need was something that we were trying to solve for ourselves first and foremost.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, it's funny, you talk--and you talked about, like, it doesn't really work that way, but GUS does roll off the tongue, and it's interesting because as someone who lives in Houston, it feels like almost every other person, especially, like, before I joined the current firm that I'm at, like, everyone is either--they've either heard about it or they're a part of it. If I'm with somebody and, like, I can tell that they play basketball--you know the type, right? Either it's their walk or their build. I say, "Do you hoop?" And they'll be like, "Oh, yeah. You know, I do some intramural stuff. It's, like, an adult intramural." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Have you heard of GUS?" They're like, "Yeah, that's what I meant." I'm like, "Oh," and I remember after, like, the fourth or fifth time I was like, "Dang, this mug is real." Like, it's just super funny, but, like, anybody I see somebody with, like, that sore walk, you know what I'm talking about? Like, with the--you know. The limp--Joe: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, our knees are aging faster than the rest of us for sure. Zach: It's funny, but it's not funny at all. But I'll see it, and I'm like, "Oh, okay. He probably hoops," and I just--I mean, there's a strong percentage, man, and they'll be like, "Oh, GUS." It's--like, it's smooth, to your point. You talked about building up this business with John, and there was a point in time where you were building this up while you were actually in business school. Like, can we talk a little bit about what that was like?Joe: So I went to the University of Michigan for business school, got my MBA. Zach: [Go] Blue.Joe: Go Blue. Ooh, I appreciate that. And the reason I--I wanted to go to business school for a while before I went and didn't have necessarily a reason, a compelling reason. Like, I didn't know that I necessarily wanted to expand the career that I was in, if I was doing it to grow within the ranks of my current company, but after we started GUS--me personally I have always had ambitions to start a company, manage a company, be--have some entrepreneurial avenue in my life, and after we started GUS [I] had a real thing to actually focus on while I was in grad school. And that was--it was really useful. I think a lot of times you can run into students that are pursuing higher-level degrees, and sometimes it's a check on a box. For me it was a very personal journey. It's about personal development. I knew that maybe the cost of tuition is really high for me to learn about doing something that's more risky, and it--really the natural thing would be to take a more professional route, but I knew that I needed to get a little bit of the business chops if I ever wanted to grow this thing into something worth talking about, and so the business school aspect was really useful for me, being in an environment where I could actually focus on the business side of the company and not just the day-to-day operations, pull back from the day-to-day operations. I thought I was gonna be able to do both at the same time. That was proven very impossible as soon as I got on campus. But also to explore avenues with resources and advisers and mentors that were there to help me formulate my thoughts for what this could be and what I might want to focus on in the future. So the MBA process was wonderful for me, even just to think about more of the business side of starting a company--you know, you start a company. It's cool, it's fun, and then suddenly you get into, like, accounting problems, incentives with your employees and stuff like that, so this isn't [?]--Zach: Collections.Joe: Right. Y'all--oh, my gosh. Yeah.Zach: Yeah. No, that's incredible. Man, I figured I would ask. It was interesting 'cause we--you know, we had Nicaila on the show as well, and she talked about her time getting her MBA, and you're absolutely right, right, that--well, let me back up, 'cause I have not gotten my MBA, okay? So let me not talk and try to false flex, but when I talk to people--when I talk to people who have gotten an MBA, a lot of them will come back and be like, "Man, you know, I was just kind of doing this to check a box," or, you know, "I didn't really know what I was doing. I was just kind of going for it." And there's no shame in that, right? But I remember in talking to you about your journey, you know, you were very purposed in what you were doing, and I remember as I was thinking about getting back into school, that really helped shape me and shape my point of view in terms of "What am I actually doing this for?" Because it's a lot of time, and for many it's a lot of money, so there needs to be--in my opinion there should be some strategy you have, and so what was really cool to me was the fact that you had a strategy behind what you were doing. Okay, cool. Cool, cool, cool. So let's get back to wellness. If you had three physical wellness tips for professionals, particularly people of color, what would they be?Joe: Yeah. So I think just the baseline of staying active is really important. What we do is pretty structured, but on the note of people of color, we have done events with a color cancer foundation start-up by a brother based out of Austin who wanted to start something for people of color that are more susceptible to colon cancer because of physical inactivity. We've done events with them raising awareness, and the events that we did were not around the typical sports leagues that we do. They're, like, fun in the sun-type days, a field day, a bunch of activities - some tug-of-war, a watermelon-eating game, playing some water balloons in the sand. Just things that you're doing for fun with the purpose of reminding people that just being active can be fun and that it's an important thing to do as a part of, like, your daily wellness. And a lot of times your physical wellness can just--it can be preventative of things that could be much worse if you aren't--if you aren't prioritizing your wellness, and so part of it is just staying active period. I read an article around when we started this company that was in GQ that was--I think the title of the article was, like, "Our Chairs Are Killing Us." Yeah. We are dormant by profession, and our desks are actually harming us just by sitting all day, and, so, you know, the primary goal is literally just "Get up. Go do something. Take a walk," you know? Maybe take a 15-minute break every 4 hours. That's what a doctor would tell you. So that's the baseline. I do think--obviously I'm biased, but there's something to be said about continuing to play sports as an adult, team sports. I think some of that can be intimidating, but, you know, the majority of our customers or participants are corporate, and they're corporate groups getting together. They're doing low-stakes activities. They're playing recreational volleyball with us. A lot of it is about team building, team wellness, just getting people to get to know each other, have a good time--get outside of the office and have a good time, but also they're doing something active, and that's--sometimes that can be a good alternative to getting a drink and eating. And so, you know, if you--if you need some accountability, sometimes it's useful to do something like join a team with your office, and that can be--and it can be something low-stakes that's not intimidating, and then the third would be, you know, if you're not into committing to things like team sports, go do something on a one-day. Like, go to a run club if you want to go find some people that do something active but you don't have to commit to anything week in and week out, and sometimes that can be the gateway for you to find out more about, like, people that do this type of thing, but also you can pop in, pop out, do it on your own, and, you know, it might even help you find some other people that can get you into the types of things that are active, 'cause sometimes you just don't have the support system and it's hard to get started. So, you know, those are just a couple avenues to just get the ball rolling, and they're good ways to meet people. Personally--obviously my personal network is a little more active, but you also find that active people are interesting people. Like, they're finding a way to continue to do something, to push themselves, and that's--often times those are interesting people to be around and will make you a more interesting person as well.Zach: I love that. No, you're absolutely right, and man--the one point you made around just, like, getting up, that resonates with me a lot, 'cause man, I got these chairs, right, at my client site. I just be sitting down all day, Joe, so I find--Joe: They're so comfortable. They're ergonomically, like, sound, you know? We have such good executive chairs now. They're tempting to sit all day, and you just need--sometimes you need something to tell you.Zach: But let me keep it a bean with you though. Like, even still, even them ergonomic chairs, you know, like, your behind start getting numb, so what I started--I started getting up, man. I had to start taking my walks downtown, 'cause, like, I can't--I can't do it, man. It's too much. Like, I'm used to feeling all parts of my body. Like, I'm 29 years old. I should feel my body when I'm at work, you know what I'm saying? Like, come on. We gotta get up. So that's real though. I appreciate that. Now, look, don't let me shortchange you. Where can people learn more about GUS?Joe: We--you know, GUS Leagues, if you go to GUS Leagues on any social media channel, @GUSleagues, you'll find us. GUSleagues.com, our website, is pretty informative. You can find out all of the things we do and things you can engage with us. If you happen to be in Houston and you work for a company that's looking to do a team-building activity, check us out. We do that type of thing as well. Yeah, you know, you can--if you type in GUS--if you type in basketball, if you type in adult sports in Houston, you're probably gonna find us.Zach: Oh, that's a lowkey stunt, but I appreciate it.Joe: That was--it was a light flex, but it's typically accurate.Zach: It was a light flex, but it's accurate. That's what make flexing dope, is when, like, you say something that's just, like, it's facts though. You're right. So when you type in "basketball," you type in "adult rec," Grown Up Sports will pop up, y'all. And this is not even an ad, yo. It's true.Joe: No, this is not a paid--it's not a paid spot. [inaudible].Zach: This is not a paid spot, facts. But what we're gonna do, Joe, we'll make sure that we have all of the information down at the bottom. And listen, for those who don't know, we talk a little bit about--a lot of bit, a lot about the future of work, right? And we talk about how teams and groups and organizations are gonna be changing, and listen, y'all, for those who don't know, get in the know. We'll make sure to put some articles in the show links as well, but wellness is gonna be a large portion of how organizations center and manage their teams. It's gonna be a larger point of or part of employee incentives. So the more that you can really learn and understand and get plugged into spaces like this the better. So I'm talking to y'all employees and I'm talking to y'all corporate big wigs, y'all who be making decisions, because I know y'all be listening to this too. Shout-out to the people who be making decisions. What's up? Okay, before we go, Joe, any parting words or shout-outs?Joe: No, just shout-out to you. This is--love the podcast, love what you're doing. I think it's important work, and more power to you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for the shout-out too. I'm amongst really good company on this show, and you're an excellent interviewer, so I appreciate the attention to detail.Zach: Aw. Man, so, you know, I don't have my soundboard, but man, if I did, like, I would play, like, the theme song from "My Brother and Me." Remember that show? "My Brother and Me" on Nickelodeon? [I’d like to add it, but I’m unsure if that’s legal]Joe: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So good.Zach: Yeah, yeah, but it's okay. All right. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com, please say the dash, okay? Now, look, it's also livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got, like, all the Living Corporates, Joe, except for livingcorporate.com, 'cause Australia got the domain, bro, and they not letting it up. I don't know what's up.Joe: Amazing.Zach: I know, right? If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just hit us up on DMs. Our DMs are wide open. Just slide up in there, ask us a question. We'll make sure to answer your question, and we'll call the title--the episode of the show "Listener Letters." We've done 'em a couple of times. We'll continue to do it. Just send us the questions. Now, look, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Joseph Price, founder--well, co-founder, 'cause no disrespect to Favor. John Favor, what's up? We see you. And CEO of Grown Up Sports, based in Houston, Texas. 'Til next time--Joe: [makes horn-like noises]Zach: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, snap. Hold on. Wait, wait, wait. Before we go, I do need to get some--no, no, no. Joe, that's a good point. Sound Man, give me my air horns right HERE. [he does] Okay, and now we're gone. Peace.

Ade and Zach reply to more listener letters! Remember, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, feel free to email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com! You can also DM us on all platforms - they're open! Check them out: Twitter, Facebook, InstagramConnect with us! http://bit.ly/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach. Hey, look, we did it the other way. How does that feel?Ade: Yuck. I can't stand it.Zach: [laughs] It's also alphabetical, and we're going from A to Z with these listener letters. Yo. Bars. [laughs]Ade: All right. [?]. I'm just gonna let you have it.Zach: Man. Y'all, I might be--yo, I might--I need to take these talents, like, to NBC, man. Like, I need to write for somebody. Like, these are good jokes.Ade: Hm.Zach: Or maybe I'd be, like, a ghostwriter, 'cause, like, this is crazy. I have bars. Like, this is great. Did you hear that? I said alphabetical 'cause you--Ade: No, I got the point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? Come on, man. Don't hate. Okay, so look, we're doing these listener letters today. Now, look, we kind of said it last week. The names y'all put in these letters, we're going to say those names unless it seems a little too specific, then we might, like, just call it something else, right? But, like, just know we're gonna read these letters as you send 'em, right? So, you know, sign your name with what you want to be addressed as, and we'll make sure that we respect that, but, you know, we don't want to, like, go into our fake bag name and then, like, give you a fake name, but that might mess around and be your real name, you know what I mean? So just help us out. Help us help y'all. Yeah? Okay. So look, we got these listener letters. We're gonna go ahead and get going. I'ma read this first one. The subject line is "Too Friendly." Uh-oh. What's that mean?Ade: It sounds like a call to HR.Zach: I'm saying. Like, what you mean too friendly? Relax. Okay. "What's up, Ade and Zach?" Look, they kept it alphabetical. What'd I tell you?Ade: [scoffs]Zach: "I feel--" [laughs] "I feel like everyone else is super close at my job and I'm always on the outside of whatever inside jokes they're telling. It makes me question who I can trust, since everyone is friends with everyone but me. They're always going out after work and will come back from the weekend with their stories of what they did. I just want to come to work, do my thing, and go home. I don't want to give up that much time, but I'm also feeling like the odd woman out. What should I do to feel more comfortable at my job? Thanks." She wrote her name as Tracy. Okay, so what should Tracy do?Ade: Well, Tracy, you can't have your cake and eat it too, friend. I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you're saying that you don't want to do the things that make--that have made everyone else become closer and, you know, more vulnerable with each other, right? So I understand wanting to come to work and go home and have that be the extent of your responsibilities at work. That being said, it means that you're not going to have a relationship with the depth that you are admiring and coveting. I mean, you can certainly do the things that we encourage. You can ask your coworkers to go get coffee with you, maybe bring donuts, but you can't have the conversations with people, you can't--honestly, if they're having, like, inside jokes because they went to Happy Hour three times and you went zero times, you're not gonna get any of those contexts. Am I missing something?Zach: No, you're not, and I think ultimately to make friends you have to be friendly. That's what my mom always tells me. Right? Like, you have to actually put yourself out there. So looking at your letter, I'm not really sure--I'm imagining, because of our platform, that you're a person of--a woman of color, and if you are--and even if you aren't, like, it can be hard to put yourself out there and--'cause to show vulnerability with, like, a group of people that you don't really--you don't know, to, like, really try to make friends, and it's tough because, you know, like, the cliqueiness and stuff, like, those things don't just stop after high school. Like, there are definitely, like, work cliques.Ade: Correct.Zach: And so I can understand and empathize with you, you know, feeling a certain kind of way, but, like, if you [?] these insecurities, one way to combat those insecurities is to one, just, like, maybe go out every now and then. It doesn't have to be all the time, but just take the time. Like, if you know they go out somewhere every weekend, maybe you go one time with them on a weekend, or just start maybe with baby steps of if you know they're going out to Happy Hour every single week, you know, maybe choose one or two times a month that you're gonna go with them, right? Like, and then that way you can start kind of easing into it, and that way you will feel more comfortable, and then they'll feel more comfortable, and then, like, it'll--barriers will just kind of come down, I think. But I'm not a woman though, and, like, my wife always tells me that, like, women are different. Like, I'll be kind of talking to her about something and she'll be like, "Look, Zach, women are just different." So help me understand, Ade, what I might be missing in this.Ade: I do not want to project things that aren't there. I don't want to project off of my own personal experiences, simply because I don't think that it does Tracy any good to hypothesize about what could be happening. I mean, her letter doesn't say that she's ever been invited. So that to me might be the issue in that it's one thing that they're having all of these, like, Happy Hours or they're going or whatever it is that they're doing outside of work. It also doesn't say how long that Tracy has been there. It doesn't say that she's ever been extended a formal invitation. It doesn't say that they're including her in other ways that don't include these extracurricular activities, so I--there are many, many different things that could be going on, but what I do know to be true is that Tracy herself says that she only wants to come to work, do her thing, and go home. There are ways to develop friendly relationships that don't also require you to be more vulnerable than you want to be at work. So I would say to Tracy kind of what we said last week with I think it was Jamal. Grab a drink with them. Not, like, alcohol, but grab some coffee or grab some tea, or come in in the morning and ask them about the weekend and share a little bit of what you did on your weekend, or "Oh, hey. Did you guys catch Homecoming on Netflix? Really great. You guys should see it." There's so many--yeah, there's so many different ways that you can share cultural contexts that don't require you to be more revealing than necessary. Also, once you start relying on greater cultural contexts, I mean, you don't have to get their inside jokes, because Beyonce, like, crosses all cultural barriers, right? Like, come on. Come on.Zach: "Come on. Come on." [laughs] No, I super agree, and that's a really good point, like, that culture is a big deal. People talk about culture in, like, these really, like, high-brow, generic, 30,000-foot ways, but I think, like, just really practically speaking, like, for people of color, at least I'll speak for black folks, like, if I'm going out for drinks with you after work, like, that means that I'm really cool with you. So, like, it's hard for us--I'll speak for me anyway. It was hard for me to, like, really be like, "Yeah, I'ma go out to drinks with you," after I've already worked 8 hours or 9 or 10 hours with you and I've seen you, you know what I'm saying, all day, and I don't even know if I really like or trust you. So, like, you haven't really shown me, like, any type of trust-worthy characteristics while we work together, but now I'm about to spend extra time and my money with you? Right? Like, those are the things that have gone through my mind. Like, "Okay, I'ma go break these barriers down," but, like--and we talked about this with Deborah Owens, who's CEO of the Corporate Alley Cat. We spoke with her--we spoke with her about this, I believe that was in season 1, but we were just talking about that's part of the job. Like, doing that, extending yourself is part of your job, and getting to know those people is part of--is part of your whole work life. Like, those are working hours for you. Like, that's how you should think about it. If you genuinely just don't do want to do it, it's important for you to make some of that time. Again, it doesn't have to be all the time, but you should not be like, "No, I don't go to anything." Like, you should go to something from time to time, but I also think it's a really good point that, like, you shouldn't have to extend yourself super far. There are small things you can do at work, you know what I'm saying? There are things you can do at work to make sure that people at least know a little bit about you. Maybe there's some more humor you can insert at work. Again, I'm not asking you to be, like, a comedian. I'm just saying, like, there's things that you can do. So I think that's really good feedback.Ade: I think the final comment that I would want to make is that--have you ever seen that graphic of the cultural context? Like, the cultural iceberg?Zach: Nah, what is that?Ade: Okay, so it's this image that shows--like, you know how an iceberg, you really can only ever see the tip of it, and there's so much more depth or so much more that's underneath the waters? At the top, it shows things like food and holidays and language as the things that are easy to see, but underneath the surface there are things like rules of conduct, child-rearing practices, family values, body language, expectations, aesthetics, personal space. There are all of these different things that are a part of your culture that are so much more difficult to articulate. I think there is such a thing as work culture, a similar iceberg in that it's easy to see, like, your dress code, turn-around time for client deliverables, or just all of these different things that are easy to see once you enter the work space, but they're things that are--that are underneath the surface, right? How often you should be going to Happy Hour being one of them, which could be really alienating for people who don't drink for whatever reason, right, or that you have to make your rounds every day to have conversations with people, which is something that I didn't know when I first started working in a lot of corporate spaces. Like, you have to make rounds. You have to go around to people and make conversations in certain--in certain work environments because you're so scattered, and so in order to maintain your working relationships, it's this unspoken rule that you get up at 10:00 a.m. or at 2:00 p.m. and you kind of go talk to other coworkers. These are all things that are a part of that work culture iceberg that might be difficult to see, and once you have fallen on the wrong side of that iceberg, it's very difficult to repair those relationships. Because they're unspoken, people assume that you know that this is the appropriate thing to do, and so they feel as though you've slapped their hand one too many times when they extended it out and tried to be friendly by inviting you out or by asking you to do whatever, whereas your understanding is "I'm just here to work and go home," and so in order to bridge the gap of those two work cultures, I would say that there is no better time than now to start reaching out. And people love talking about themselves. It's not, like, a moral failing. It's simply just human nature. Like, when people start taking interest in the things that you enjoy and the things that you feel proud of, it makes you feel closer to the person asking. So Tracy, I would advise you to--not us asking you to, like, do any social engineering, but getting to know people by asking them about the things that they love and the things that they enjoy, and also with the understanding that we are not saying that that means that you need to go attending Happy Hours or that you need to extend yourself any further than necessary, simply that it is a mark of a good professional to be able to maintain good working relationships, regardless of the depth of those relationships. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense, and that's just a really good reminder, even for me. Not even for me, like I'm somebody. For me, because--Ade: [laughs] You are somebody, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Aw, thank you, Ade. But no, it's important, like, to make time and to, like, do the rounds. 99% of the time--99% of the businesses that we work in are people businesses. There's some type of people element to it, and even if they're not, like, external clients, if they're just, like, your own colleagues, there's relationships that you need to be continually thinking about in how you manage them. So that makes sense to me. I think it's super spot on.Ade: Cool. Cool, cool. Thank you for writing in, Tracy. We hope that you get a resolution to this soon, and we'd love to hear from you, see how you dealt with this, how you handled--how you handled this conversation.Zach: For sure, for sure. Okay, I see this next one. This one is called--the subject line is "Micromanager." Here we go. I'ma go ahead and read it. Actually, no, do you want to read this one? 'Cause I read the first one. Why don't you read this one?Ade: Sure, okay. All right. "Hey, Living Corporate. So I've been at my job for about two years now and recently got a new manager. They're nice enough, but are nonstop with the feedback," ooh, "as if they have something to say about every little thing to do, from checking my work, how I present and lead meetings and my body language. They're also asking me for their feedback, like, every other week to the point where I don't know what to say. I just am feeling overwhelmed. A part of me wants to tell them to back off, but I'm not trying to cause any trouble. What do you think I should do? Thanks. Courtney."Zach: Hm.Ade: Go ahead, Zach.Zach: So they're nonstop with the feedback. "I feel like they have something to say about every little thing I do, from checking my work, how I present, lead meetings, to my body language." So when I read this, and maybe I'm reading this from, like, a manager lens, right, so I could be wrong, it sounds to me like you have someone who's really engaged and they're trying to help you, right? And then when you say "They're also always asking me [?], like, every other week." So every two weeks they're asking you to give them feedback, so they're looking for you to help them, just like they're trying to help you. Are you just not--maybe you're just not used to being managed. Like, this is kind of weird. This is kind of weird to me. How do you feel? You're making all of these noises, and you were making noise when you read the letter, so, like, what am I missing here?Ade: Okay. I wouldn't necessarily say that Courtney is not used to being managed. I think that there are two conflicting styles here of working relationships. I think that Courtney's new manager is used to, to borrow PwC's phrase, "real-time feedback," and Courtney might be a little bit more used to a more hands-off style type of management, and that will--that will create conflict, but I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. I don't know that anybody is wrong here so much as miscommunicating, because it can be overwhelming to go from a very, very hands-off managerial style to someone who is seemingly in your face all of the time. That can be a very difficult experience. I know that I would be frazzled. I was frazzled when it happened to me, and I certainly think that--and I'm not saying that the manager is wrong either in saying that, "Oh, hey. I noticed that you do things this way. Maybe you should try this way instead," because ultimately most managers who are worth their salt are trying to help you develop your career and help you grow as an individual. They are not being malicious in their feedback, but nobody likes to be micromanaged, and that's likely what that feels like to Courtney. All that to say that I think that there are ways in which you can communicate that you feel overwhelmed with the deluge of information. Maybe you could schedule checkpoints every two weeks with your manager. Like, "Hey, let's go grab some coffee every two weeks for 30 minutes. We can have a conversation about my progress so far. We can talk about what you think I should be doing differently, but the constant check-ins are distracting, they're demoralizing, and I don't feel that they are actually helpful to me."Zach: That's real. You know, so, I'm looking at this email. Like, every other week the manager's asking them for feedback. 'Cause I don't know Courtney. I don't know if Courtney--Courtney might be a man or a woman, I'm not sure--asking them for feedback, right? So, like, asking them for feedback. Like, maybe that's where they can propose this. Like, that's where they can propose like, "Hey, look." Like, being really transparent, right? Like, "Hey, this is how this is making me feel. We have this time already." Unless it's something that's, like, a serious problem, like, "Unless it's something that's, like, gonna break--make something break, like, could we wait to kind of give me feedback during these points?" Typically, I'll say for me anyway, sometimes when I know that I'm micromanaging somebody, I realize that, like, I'm giving them feedback every little step of the way as opposed to, like, backing up and letting them, like, drive something, and then I can be like, "Oh, wait. I was gonna say this, but you ended up doing this anyway." "I was gonna say this, but you ended up--okay, so I don't even have to say anything about this," right? Like, I think that that makes sense. I think there is definitely opportunity, and if they really are being serious about this 360 feedback, I think that's the perfect place to give it to them then, but that's gonna take some vulnerability and, like, courage on your part, right? And you say in here, "Part of me wants me to tell them to back off, but I'm not really trying to cause any trouble." I don't feel like you're causing any trouble, right? I think it's about just being respectful, and nothing in here, what you've said, is that they've been disrespectful to you, so I'm gonna assume that everything has been above the board so far, that it's been, like, work. But that's what I would suggest, and yeah, I'm not trying to be unfair and say that you're not used to being managed. I guess what I'm saying is because of my work history, I've been in so many situations where, like, my lead does not care. They won't communicate with me. And I'm on a project now where I have a very engaged manager, and they really, really are plugged in, and they care about, like, my growth and my progress, and they give me, like, really poignant feedback, and it has felt at certain times overwhelming, but I had to ask myself, like, "Okay, how much of this is overwhelming because of I'm just getting too much feedback? How much is overwhelming because it's like, 'Wow, maybe I haven't really ever gotten, like, on-the-spot coaching about my performance before and, like, I'm just not used to how this feels.'" Like, maybe it's just a new feeling as opposed to me putting it on somebody else, you know what I'm saying? So that's what I mean when Courtney's like, "Okay, well, is this like--" How much is this just a new feeling for you that you need to navigate and, like, work through? That might take you time, and how much of this are you really feeling like they're micromanaging you? That's my take, but I feel like--I feel like we're still saying something--are we saying something different? Like, what do you think about what I'm saying?Ade: I think that it's entirely possible that it's both in that--I think we're actually saying the same thing actually, that the truth is somewhere in the middle, that Courtney might not be used to this person's managerial style, they might not be used to this instantaneous feedback, and that this manager's feedback might be--managerial style might be a little overwhelming, particularly for someone who has been in their position for two years and is switching contexts between two managers, and so I think that as a manager you do have to be mindful of the context and the role in which you step--like, the people who you're managing have had different contexts over time, and I think that it's only fair that you ramp up not coming with guns blazing. And it might not feel that way to you because you're simply doing what you've always done, which is "Oh, hey, I saw this. We should work on that," or "Oh, hey, I think you'd be a much more effective presenter if you did things this way." Which, fair, that's absolutely what you're supposed to be doing, but to manage up, Courtney, I would say that you should definitely take some time to sit down and figure out truly what are the things that make you the most uncomfortable, and then figure out how to make those things work for you, because if the feedback is meant for you to grow as a professional, there's no way that it can be a terrible thing to hear it. However, it's entirely true that it might be overwhelming for you when you're in the middle of deliverables and also trying to incorporate the last six things that were said to you in the last two days. So I would say that for me it would be much more effective to manage up in putting time on your manager's calendar, like, "Hey, every two weeks, let's go out, get some coffee or grab some lunch, and we can talk through my progress over the last two weeks and some areas you would like to see me improve, and we can iterate over my behavior in that way or my progress in that way as opposed to you sending me a note every, you know, three hours, because that's jarring."Zach: [laughs] Every three hours? No way. No way.Ade: Right, it's a little bit much, and not that I don't appreciate you paying close attention to me and my activities, but it does make me feel a little bit monitored and micromanaged, and I can't succeed in that way.Zach: No, that's real, and I mean, like--I'm agreeing with you, right? I agree with that. I think--and I think what's really cool is that two--every two weeks, that can just be the two weeks I already have set up, and yeah, so that's great. I think that's really good feedback. So Courtney, hope that helps. Let us know how it goes. Keep us updated on the progress. I definitely think the term "managing up" is important, 'cause this is part of it, this is a huge part of it, is you having this discussion with your boss, and it seems as--your lead, your manager, and it seems as if--I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at it through--I'm being biased 'cause I'm looking at it through, like, a manager lens, but it seems as if this person at least--I mean, the communication is there, right? It's not like you're having to create a lane of communication, so hopefully it should work out. We'll see though. Hm. Okay. All right. All right, y'all. Well, that does it for us on the listener letters. Let's see here. So I have one Favorite Thing, and I recognize that we did not talk about this in pre-production, so if you don't have one it's no big deal. But it's been a couple of weeks, right? So I just want to, like, really quickly--so, like, I feel like I can now talk about Avengers: Endgame. Very good, right?Ade: No spoilers.Zach: No, no. Definitely spoilers. It's been two weeks. It's been, like, two or three weeks.Ade: No spoilers. What? No. Don't be a terrible person.Zach: How am I being a terrible person? It's been mad weeks!Ade: No spoilers! None.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Man, I was about to say--I was about to be like, "And when So-and-so did the such-and-such!" I was just--Ade: I require more of you than you are giving me right now, Zachary.Zach: Man, that's real, that's real. Okay, so I'm not gonna get into spoilers. However, great, great movie. In fact, let me tell y'all what happened. So opening weekend, right?Ade: Oh. I was about to be like, "Didn't I just say?"Zach: Nah, nah, nah. So opening weekend, right? I planned on going Thursday night, but then I had a really busy day on Friday, and I was like, "You know what? Let me be wise and just, like, let me be mature, and I will wait," so I waited. I did not go Thursday night. I ended up going Friday night instead, and man, when I tell you that I was so emotionally overwhelmed. Like, I cried. I cheered. I cried again. I cheered again. I gasped, like, multiple times. I was like, "Man." And so I had already, like, proactively got tickets for Saturday AND Sunday, and I was like--'cause I just know I'm gonna want to see it again, and the theaters are sold out, but I was so tired--like, I was so drained by that movie and the multiple conversations I had--again, I'm not gonna get into spoilers. I was so drained. I was just like, "You know what? Let me just not." I've only gone to see it once. Like, that's how drained I was, 'cause I was just--I cried. Like, it was just so good. I've never seen a movie--like, it's just the culmination of more than 20 films, man. Like, come on, dogg. Like, that's a lot of work. It was so good. Like, you saw it, Ade. Am I tripping? Was it not great?Ade: It was amazing. Amazing.Zach: It was so--like, my gosh. It was so good.Ade: Amazing.Zach: Ugh, so good. So anyway, that's my favorite thing. I hope that y'all go see it if you haven't already, and then also, you need to go ahead and just cut the cable and go ahead and get that Disney+, 'cause y'all know all these shows about to come up. And again, I can't get into the spoilers 'cause Ade told me not to, but there's gonna be a bunch of other stuff coming, and--Ade: I'm just gonna--I need your login information, Zach. Thanks in advance.Zach: You are wrong. [both laugh] You know, it's so funny. Like, everybody has Candice and I's login. Like, I go on my little Netflix and my Hulu, I see, like, 17 accounts. I'm like, "Who are these little profiles?" Like, what is this? Come on.Ade: You're the grown up. I don't know what to tell you.Zach: Clearly. My goodness though, and some of them--some of them created profiles when they were, like, you know, in college, but, like, come on, man. Like, we all got money now. Y'all need to go ahead and help. Get your own, you know what I mean? Anyways.Ade: Chip in.Zach: Chip in, exactly. Put in on this, you know what I'm saying? You know, put 5 on it. That's all I'm trying to say. So okay, with that being said, I feel like we're at the end. So Ade, is there anything else?Ade: Nope, that's it. I actually was gonna use Endgame as my favorite thing as well. I've seen that movie several times at this point, and yeah, y'all watch it so we can talk about it in two months.Zach: Straight up. Okay, well, I guess that's that. Thank you for listening to us and joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. We are on all of Al Gore's internet.Ade: Everywhere.Zach: Everywhere. Just type in Living Corporate. Check us out. You type in Living Corporate on Google, we will pop up on every major player. You can check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporatePodcast. You can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And actually, on Instagram it's not @LivingCorporatePodcast, it's @LivingCorporate. Boom. Thank you. If you have any questions, any letters you'd like to send in on the show for us to read them like we did on this episode today, again, just email us, or you can DM us on Twitter and Instagram, 'cause our DMs are wide open. That's right. You don't even have to follow us. You can just DM us, but come on, be polite, 'cause some of y'all be out here wildin', okay? You know who y'all are. I'm not even gonna give you the air time, but you know. Let's see here. What else? What else? What else? Nah, I feel like that's it, you know what I'm saying? Grace and peace, afro grease or whatever else you use to keep your skin and hair lathered. You know, do what you do.Ade: [sighs] So much is happening. Um...Zach: This has been Zach.Ade: ...Yeah. This has been Ade. Y'all pray for Zach. He's going through some things.Zach: [laughs] Not at all, not at all! Listen, okay? Moisturization is important, and we're talking to people of color here. Come on. Like, you gotta--come on, let's go. Carol's Daughter or something. You gotta use something.Ade: [sighs] Goodbye, y'all.Both: Peace.

Zach sits down with Side Hustle Pro's Nicaila Matthews Okome to talk about all things hustle. She shares her career journey, promotes SHP's Podcast Moguls program, and breaks down the genesis of her Color Noir app. She also illustrates what it looks like to really build authentic relationships in today's space.Check out Side Hustle Pro!http://bit.ly/2Zl5c4rFind out more about SHP's Podcast Moguls program!http://bit.ly/2WtgG48Download Color Noir on the App Store!https://apple.co/2WGZSMgTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, look, y'all. Y'all know we have some dope guests on the show. Executives, musicians, entrepreneurs, activists. You know, real movers and shakers. I'm not trying to, like, not drop too many names, but I'm saying, like, you know, DeRay Mckesson, J. Prince, Preston Mitchum. I mean, come on. Like, we've got some peop--we've had some people on the show, and look, who would we be if we didn't bring y'all another dope guest, okay, to parlay with us, to kick back, to chit-chat, to lay back, to--you know, to kick it one time for the one time... Nicaila Matthews Okome!Nicaila: Woohoo![both laugh]Nicaila: What a warm welcome.Zach: Oh, no. Oh, I'm just getting started, Nicaila. Nicaila is a Jamaican-born Bronx-bred marketer and side hustler turned full-time podcaster and entrepreneur. Now, listen, y'all. She's Jamaican and she's from the BX, so she be workin' workin', okay?[both laugh]Zach: In 2016, Nicaila created the Side Hustle Pro podcast. Side Hustle Pro is the first and only podcast to spotlight bold black women entrepreneurs who have scaled from the side hustle to profitable businesses. Since the launch, it has been named the quote "perfect entrepreneurship podcast" by Mashable and earned over two million--hold on. [record scratch] Sound Man, give me some reverb when I say millions. So it's like, "Million-million-million-million." Million downloads and amassed a loyal social media following of aspiring entrepreneurs. Oh, yeah. I'm excited just reading the intro. So with all that being said, first of all, 'cause she's from the BX, I'm gonna add a hearty YEARP and--[both laugh]Zach: And I hope it's not culturally insensitive 'cause I recognize that you're Jamaican, but we're gonna add some air horns right HERE [they are dropped] and let these jaunts fly! Let's go! Nicaila, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Nicaila: I am doing amazing. Listen, after that intro, I am on a high, all right? That is, like, the best, most warm intro I've ever received. Thank you, Zach. Thank you for having me in the guest chair.Zach: Ooh. I'm honored, and I'm turning purple--'cause I'm blushing, you know what I'm saying? So for those of us who don't know you, and I know I gave a little bit in the intro, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Nicaila: Sure, sure. So yeah, you covered a lot, but I guess from what you didn't cover--so, you know, at the core, I am a dreamer, I am a storyteller, and when I was young, that looked like me being the little girl who loved, you know, making up stories, just being by herself in her own world, and later in life [it] would manifest in this career in marketing, specifically social media marketing. So I have over 10 years of experience in that lane, and while I was figuring out my life's journey, what ended up happening is--throughout my life I've side hustled and come up with different things a few times, but coming out of grad school I had a hard time finding a full-time role, and that led me back to the side hustle path, but this time I was determined to actually grow it to the point where I could do my own thing. So the side hustle was the podcast, Side Hustle Pro podcast like you said, and I was able to market and monetize it to the level where I was able to quit my full-time job and turn my side hustle into my full hustle, and now I coach emerging podcasters in my Podcast Moguls program because I want other people to be able to have that experience. And since I have a lot of jobs and, you know, that's just in my blood like you said, I'm also an app creator. So my husband and I recently launched the Color Noir app, which is an app devoted to all things melanin and Black Girl Magic. So really excited about that.Zach: Man. So first of all, you've got--you got a lot of dip on the chip, 'cause we was gonna get there, but it's okay. We're still gonna get there a little bit later in the interview. First of all, I love this. Yes, I love the Color Noir app. Definitely in Podcast Moguls. We're gonna talk about that as well. You know, it's interesting, 'cause my--I know that you talked about, like, you know, how you made the side hustle your full hustle. I feel like the scariest part of anything is getting started, right? So you talk about--you talk about kind of not really knowing what you wanted to do after grad school, but, like, plenty of people finish grad school and don't know what to do, and then they figure--you know, they do something. They end up going back to industry, or maybe they teach or something like that. What was the igniter for you to actually launch Side Hustle Pro specifically?Nicaila: So the igniter for me was really rejection. I got rejected so many times in that period between when I graduated from Michigan--I went to the University of Michigan for my MBA.Zach: Shout-out [?].Nicaila: Shout-out. Go Blue. Graduated in May 2015, and [I] didn't end up landing a full-time role until December of 2015. So between that time I had a whole bunch of rejections. I'm talking about--there was one company, I went on an interview--I had six interviews with, and I just knew I was gonna get that role... did not get the role.Zach: Mm-mm! [read: No!]Nicaila: Yeah! So what happened is I started blogging again and interviewing people, 1. because I was trying to figure out, "Okay, what can I do? I know I love writing. I know I love social media. Let me just explore and continue to work on things that bring me joy. I don't know what it means. God, I don't know how to make a career out of this," but I figured that while I don't have a job I should at least nurture those skills. So that was the initial impetus to just start the blog, and I was particularly interested in black women who were side hustling but were able to build out their business on the side, because 1. I was so tired of being rejected I was like, "Oh, I'm done with corporate. Even when I got a job, I gotta do my own thing. I gotta do my own thing shortly after, like, the last job I'm gonna get. No one's ever gonna be able to reject me again." And then 2. I also knew that, again, I was gonna go back to corporate and that anything that I was gonna start would have to start as me building it on the side.Zach: One thing you said that I love is that--what I've observed, especially for, like, younger folks, millennials--millennials ain't really younger no more. We're, like, not the youngest people [?] anymore. What we'll do is, like, you know, we don't know what we're doing, where to start, so we just kind of sit on our hands, and part of your story was you were like, "Look, I'm not getting a job. I'm gonna do something." Like, you took that and you used that energy and put it towards something that eventually manifested into something viable, and that's just--that's so inspiring to me, like, no boost, because I think a lot of times what I've noticed is, like I said, we'll just kind of, like, sit on our hands and be like, "Well, I don't really know what to do, so I'm not gonna do anything." It's like, "Well, no. You could do something," you know what I'm saying? Like, you could do--like, figure out--figure out something. Like, take that energy and put it towards something. Make it--Nicaila: Absolutely, yep.Zach: Yeah, make something--like, do something productive. Man, so that's just super dope. So, you know, we talked about the first scariest thing. I think the second scariest part of doing something entrepreneurial is realizing like, "Oh, snap. This is something I can actually do full-time." So, like, as you were building out Side Hustle Pro and as it was growing, at what moment did you go, "Ayo, this is gonna be me for real"? Like, "I got this"?Nicaila: So, you know, I kind of had two of those moments in my journey. So the first one happened when I was freelancing. So because I didn't have a job I was able to land, like, a freelancing gig with this organization, Management Leadership for Tomorrow, MLT, which prepares, you know, under-represented professionals for the career field and also has a super dope MBA prep program, which I went through, and I also went through it in undergrad.Zach: Yeah.Nicaila: Folks at MLT Family, much love to them, because they gave me a freelance role as a social media marketer during that summer while I was finding my way. That was one of the first moments where I was like, "Yo, I could--you know, worst comes to worst I could maybe start my own social media consulting agency. That's one thing I could do." But I kind of pushed that to the side because I was like--I just didn't know how I would start that, how I would get any clients and what that would look like, and I wasn't sure if that's what I wanted to do. So continued to do that, continued to interview, got my full-time role--which ended up being at NPR, National Public Radio, in Washington, D.C., doing social media for their programming and their podcasts, ironically. So as I was doing that I ended up turning the blog into a podcast at that point, and the moment when I thought "I think I could do this full-time" is when I decided to start going after sponsorships. So within six months of the podcast launching, I pitched my first sponsor, and it just so happened that cold pitching--I landed that first sponsorship contract, and it was $4,000, and it's like, you know, $4,000 living below your means? Like, that could cover me. Like, I could live off that.Zach: Ayo, straight up.Nicaila: So I was like, "Wait a minute." I really went hard. "I could do this full-time." So that was that first light-bulb moment.Zach: Man, that's really cool. The other thing--and your story is, like, just putting yourself out there, right? You took a shot. Like, you had some evidence under your belt that, like, this was something viable with the podcast, and you said "Okay, I'm gonna put something together," and you--and you made it. That's really cool because, you know, people out here trying to pitch and stuff all the time, and I know we're gonna talk about Podcast Moguls in a little bit, but everybody doesn't make it on their first attempt, you know what I'm saying? Like, you hit a full-court--you pulled up from, like, 40, like Steph Curry [?]. And wet. My gosh.Nicaila: It was such a--it was such a good fit, and that's what I try to tell people about sponsorships and pitching anything. Like, you really have to know who you're pitching and what is in it for them. Like, what are you providing? Is your audience a good fit? You have to know your audience too.Zach: You know what? And it's interesting--and I think your marketing background plays a part in this, right? Like, understanding--understanding, like, the mind of your audience and understanding, like, the psychology behind even putting together an effective pitch. And, you know, I've been in Corporate America since 2011, and one thing I've seen is that first-gen corporate professionals, especially black and brown folks, are not the best at really marketing themselves, whether that be, like, to get a promotion or find another job or even to, like, get a side hustle going or get sponsorship and get support for a side hustle. I met folk with genuine passions, and I know, like, part of the TED talk is--[we?] didn't talk about this and all the stuff--in your quick intro, you know what I'm saying, you're still really humble, Nicaila. Like, you didn't talk about the fact that you was on--that you had a TED talk and you [were] talking about multi-passionate professionals and the future of work. But it's okay, I'ma let you make it. But I've met some folks with multiple passions or ideas and aspirations that they've been sitting on for years. Like, they have--like, they have ideas for years. Like, what would advice would you give to folks who don't really know where to start when it comes to amplifying your voice in the working context?Nicaila: First thing I always tell people is you've got to get out your own way, so the first obstacle is your mind and all of the stories we tell ourselves about, "Oh--" And a big thing that holds us back is what we tell ourselves people are going to think, when in actuality none of that matters. Those people--these, like, mystical people that you're making up that are gonna say this or that or these obstacles that are allegedly going to get in your way, let that happen and then deal with it rather than assume it's gonna happen and stop yourself before you even try. So that's #1, get out your way, and #2. Start so ridiculously small. Just by--you can write down everything you think you need to do and then start chipping away at that. So for example with a podcast, I thought about it in 2015. I didn't end up launching until 2016, but that's because I needed to tell myself, "Oh, I'm gonna learn how to do it first." So I spent some time just YouTubing, I spent some time listening to other podcasts to get a feel and doing all that stuff. Like, that was part of my process, but I knew I had an end date in mind, I had a launch date in mind. So start going through the process of launching what it is you want to launch. Invest in experts so that you can learn from the best. I'm not talking about taking endless courses. I'm talking about looking at the top person who you want to replicate and investing--if they have something--investing in learning more from them, whether that be going to a conference that they have, investing in a course that they have, because there's no sense in you, like, sitting around, trying to figure everything out on your own and getting in your own way. So those are my two biggest tips.Zach: That's--man, that's really dope. You know, and it's interesting because I feel like a lot of what you're talking about also comes down to really, like, understanding who you're trying to connect with and building authentic relationships. It's tough though because, like, it feels as if everyone, especially in 2019, is in sales mode on every social media platform, right? I mean, like, no joke. I was on LinkedIn today, and look--you know, Nicaila, I'm a fairly handsome man, okay? My teeth are--my teeth are fine, and yet, like, this dentist hit--a dentist hit me up on LinkedIn talking about "If you need anything, you know, with your dentist needs and you have, you know... use this promo code." I was like, "What?" Why is a dentist pitching me on LinkedIn?Nicaila: I bet you what though. Guess what? Because it's worked for him. I bet you that's why.Zach: I bet, I bet. And I can't knock the hustle. We live in a capitalist society, you know what I'm saying? It's built on the dollar. I get it, you know? Whatever. Different topic for a different day, but with that being said, what does relationship building look like in 2019 when these platforms that were initially built or pitched to us as really, like, relationship building and community building are really being used to kind of always, you know, sell something. And people are fatigued from that, they're wary of that. What does it look like to really build authentic relationships in today's space?Nicaila: Well, you know, I--before I answer that, I do want to say that I don't necessarily think sales is a bad thing. So that's where we can have a dialogue, because I think that's part of the reason why--that stops a lot of us from taking our business from where it needs to go, because we've been taught that sales is a bad word--and don't get me wrong, there are a lot of bad salespeople. There's a lot of practices out there that I'm like, "Come on." For example, when I get a DM that's just, like, selling me. Like, and I don't even know the person. I'm like, "This ain't it. This ain't it."Zach: Yeah.Nicaila: It's like, "This works for you? No, this is not happening." So I know I said the dentist, that might work for him, but honestly most DM pitches are 100% terrible. But at the same time, if you're using your platform to tell people more about your services, like, that's how people are gonna know about it, otherwise no one will discover it. And I've even experienced that with Podcast Moguls, right? You know, because I did a soft launch I wasn't talking about it as much, but when I finally really started to ramp up sharing, sharing, sharing, that's now when I'm beginning to build the level of awareness that I want to get to, because not everyone sees every post. Actually, no one sees every post, so in order to make sure that everyone knows about it you have to continue to talk about what you're doing, and that's what I think of it as - talking. So some people think of sales as pushing and being really aggressive to try to force someone to do something. That's not what I think of it as. I think of explaining to people what you know and leaving--and allowing them to make an informed decision. So that's #1, and #2. I absolutely still think of social media as relationship building. I mean, look at us. I think that--you know, we met via email, right, when you reached out for this podcast, and we continued--even though I couldn't do it at the first moment that you reached out, we continued--you know, [?], might touch base via DM or what have you, and a lot of the people who end up enrolled in any of my programs, whether it's Podcast Moguls or my Master the Gram program, a lot of them follow me on social media, and we have talked multiple times--we've had multiple touch points, and when they're looking and they're ready for an expert to help them with Instagram marketing or launching their podcast, they immediately turn to me and trust me because they know that we have a relationship. It's not just that they saw my ad. Some people it is, but for most people they had some kind of connection with me before they enrolled in my program.Zach: That's real talk, and you know what? Again, I'ma brag for you, 'cause it's--it's funny, because the reason I even connected with you--so I would have likely found you anyway, right, but what accelerated me to connect with you is because there are people in my network, when they knew that I was starting a podcast they were like, "Oh, you need to talk to Nicaila," and so your brand had already established itself enough that I had heard about you in other ways and then kind of--I connected to you through an informal referral.Nicaila: Yeah. [What I'd add?] too about relationship building--so I'm that weird person who, like, I look at Instagram as the same way I would a networking event, and because I'm actually an introvert, because I prefer--I'm a homebody--I prefer social media networking over going to--walking into random rooms where I don't know people. That's just always been my preference, but I'm not a weirdo. Like, I actually--[both laugh] I engage with people's comments. I mean, I will leave a meaningful comment once I start following you. I will--we will have actual, like, meaningful dialogue [?], and so that's how I view relationship building on social media, and then when I have the chance, I do try to connect with people, and I'm doing more of that, especially this year. So there are people who I've talked to on social and Instagram specifically, and I feel like I know them, but I haven't, but then when I go to conferences where I know that, you know, a good amount of these people are gonna be there, that's an awesome moment to kind of cement that relationship. So it started online, and then we make the offline connection, which just helps it to flourish even more.Zach: I love that, and I do appreciate you pushing back and challenging. I do think that it's definitely a space where you can make those connections, and I love the fact that you reinforced that. I think because on my side--and it might be just--you know, that's why I'm in your Podcast Moguls class, and we're about to talk about that in a second, but it might just be because of, like, the level of interaction I get where it's, like, a lot of, just, DM requests about, like, sales-y things, and not necessarily, like, just relational things. So with that being said, let's talk about a little bit more about what you have going on and where people can learn more. I'd like to start with Podcast Moguls because I'm currently in it, and I'm loving it. And then I'd love to talk about the Color Noir app, but I'ma let you wax poetic. You take it where you want to go.Nicaila: Sure. So Podcast Moguls is, you know, one of the major, major things that I have going on, because in 2018 I realized after--speaking of DMs--after years of just, you know--ever since I launched my podcast, after years of just, like, getting DMs, consistent emails, questions, questions, questions about how to do this whole podcast thing and how to grow it to the scale that Side Hustle Pro has grown to, I decided to package my knowledge and actually launch an accelerator program. One was to finally answer everyone's questions in one place, and the second was because when you look at the podcast charts, it is just really lacking in diversity, okay?Zach: It is, it is.Nicaila: And I'm like--I know we have a lot of great things to say and a lot of information, so there's no reason why we shouldn't be up there, but it's not enough to have great content. It's not enough to have valuable content. You have to know the marketing piece, and that's what I realized was my differentiator, my background in marketing. So I started my Podcast Moguls, which is an 8-week accelerator. Essentially I take people through the process of--you can start if you've already launched. So if you've already launched you can go right into working through the [?] steps to scale your podcast, but I also take people through the steps of launching, coming out the gate strong, growing that audience, and then continuing to grow from there. We have weekly coaching calls, so it's really cool because--it's not just a course, it is an opportunity for me to also really learn what people are struggling with so that I can continue to stay on my toes and just refine and refine content and give people information. So it's been a really rewarding experience for me. I think sometimes when we are on this path of entrepreneurship doing very untraditional things--like I said, when I was really exploring blogging I was like, "I don't know where this is gonna lead. This makes no sense. This can't possibly be a job." And I still have those moments where I'm like, "This can't possibly be a job," but I've learned through Podcast Moguls is when I see the results that people are getting, their reactions when they break in the Top 200 charts in their category and break through 10,000, 20,000 and more downloads and land their first sponsor, that has been a light-bulb moment for me to realize, like, "Listen, bloom where you are planted." You never understand exactly why you are doing this thing right now, but keep doing it. One day it will all make sense, because this is benefiting someone. This is providing value. And this is gonna change your lives--just like launching a podcast has changed my life, this is going to change your life. So I really am just so happy that I launched Podcast Moguls, and for anyone out there who's listening and, you know, has an idea for a podcast or started their podcasts and want to take it seriously and not just treat it as a hobby, I definitely recommend you come over to the program. Just go to PodcastMoguls.com. So you said to also talk about Color Noir, right?Zach: I did, but can we just pause for a second?Nicaila: Sure, yes. Yeah, I think we do need to pause, because you're in the program and, you know, you can definitely speak to being a podcaster who has a podcast, was doing your own thing, growing on your own and deciding to join.Zach: Yeah. So first of all I love the passion, right? And so, like, I got this app--see, I ain't trying to be just too--just too ridiculous, 'cause I was gonna play, like, these little "ow"--'cause I felt like you was preaching. Like, "Mmm." Like, "[imitating]," you know? I was like, "Golly, she is going off." But yeah, no, no doubt. You're absolutely right. Living Corporate has been around for about a little over a year, and so we're at a point now where I feel like we are--we're definitely continuing to grow, but I want us to get to that next level, and I'm a little impatient, and I also just--there's a lot of things that I know I don't know, and so what I've loved about Podcast Moguls so far is how open it is and how it really does reinforce community through the social media aspect. I love the content. It's just really--it's just really, like, smartly put together. Like, it's very interactive. It's self-paced, which is really important because I'm a manager at a big four consulting firm, so, like, I don't have time in the regular part of my day. I have to kind of, like, carve out time in my weekend to get in--I just love it. I love it. I'm just now really getting into the marketing aspect of it, but what I've already gone through just to, like, the basics and, like, the background, and, like--I'm loving it. I think it's absolutely great, and I definitely--this is not even an ad.Nicaila: That makes me so happy. Right? That's not even an ad.Zach: This is not an ad, y'all. I am not a corporate shill, okay? I am for the people. Yo, I'm still with y'all. I'm still with y'all. Don't play.Nicaila: No, but that makes me so happy, and also I'm really excited for you because I'm a listener of Living Corporate, and like I said, it's all about--Zach: Stop. Stop.Nicaila: No. It's all about this valuable content [needing to get?] in the right areas. Like, you know how many of us struggle with this? I mean, all of my business school classmates, like, this is our dilemma right now. This is--this is what I see people talking about in GroupMe and these conversations that you're having on the show. So it's all about getting it in front of more people.Zach: Man, I'm so honored that you listen to the show. Dang. I'm, like, really dang cheesin'. Uh, cool. Cool, cool, cool. Let me--[composes himself] All right, cool, so let's talk about this Color Noir app. So before you get going, I love the pictures, right? Like, it's super fire, and, like, Candice, my wife, she's a big--she's a big colorer, so, like, when she--she's in it as well. Like, we're fans. We are fans.Nicaila: Yay! I love to hear that too. So Color Noir, I mean, yeah, I didn't realize how big coloring books was until my husband Muoyo--like, he is--you know, he's the app guy of us, so he has been in the app business for almost ten years, and he kept coming across all of these coloring books. "Coloring books?" And he's like, you know, "I think we should create a coloring book app, but for black people," because as usual, everything that's created is not created with black people in mind. The images, you know? Look at Disney, Disney movies. You talked about Band-Aids in one episode. It's crazy that literally--Zach: We did talk about Band-Aids.Nicaila: Literally everything that's created on Earth was not created for us. So that's a big opportunity, y'all, for those of you out there figuring out what to create, literally look at anything--Zach: [laughs] And make it black.Nicaila: [?] selling it, okay? So, you know, he brought the idea to me. Of course I loved it because I just love seeing myself represented, you know? That's why, as soon as Rihanna launched Fenty, like, I--that's my exclusive makeup line now simply because I love what it represents. So we developed this together, so he worked with the actual developers and, you know, handled the technical side whereas I was all about the look and feel, because I am a user. I am the target customer, so I needed it to be reflective of me. And then one of the smart things that we did, we also created a Facebook group so that as people are using it--when we launched it it was beta, so everyone could use it, give us feedback before we really started marketing it, and so that group gave us really great feedback about skin tones, us needing to add more skin tones, the images, and of course Android, which is coming very soon, so--Zach: Look at y'all. First of all, it's so fire. It's so fire. Like, the designs are so intricate too. These are beautiful stencils.Nicaila: Yeah. So, like, we discuss every image, 'cause it's like, "What is this--" You know, it can't be too complicated that you can't color it, but at the same time we wanted images--eye-catching images that you don't see every day. You don't see a black mom breastfeeding her child in any old app, okay? So that's what we got going on. So check out Color Noir, y'all. N-O-I-R.Zach: Come on, now. And look, Nicaila, you know we got you. We're gonna have all the information in the show notes, so y'all make sure you check [them] out. Now, look, you know that we could keep on going, but let me just go ahead and stop, because we got other things going on. I want to respect your time. Any parting words or shout-outs?Nicaila: Yes. So parting words. First and foremost, I want everybody out there, if you have a passion that you are not exploring right now, start making some time every week just to see--just to see--what it would be like if you actually pursued it, and also if you want that kind of encouragement, definitely come over to the Side Hustle Pro community. We are Side Hustle Pro on every social media platform, so on Instagram, Facebook, just search Side Hustle Pro, and of course I really hope you listen to the podcast if you haven't already to get inspiration from dope black women entrepreneurs who started as side hustlers.Zach: Come on, now. Look, that--this is awesome. First of all, Nicaila, for real, thank you for being on the show. This has been wonderful, and--Nicaila: Thank you so much for having me.Zach: That does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, but look, don't play. Our DMs are wide open, so you can go ahead and DM us. We'll make sure that we shout y'all out. Get your letter in that way. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Nicaila Matthews Okome, founder of Side Hustle Pro, multi-passionate entrepreneur and general snatcher of your edges and mine. Peace.

Zach sits down with the host of the Trill MBA Show, Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, in this special crossover centered around respectability politics. They discuss the importance of encouraging folks to embrace their full selves, noting that only in being your most authentic self can you really be your best at work.Check out the Trill MBA Show! Part 2 is on Apple!https://trillmba.com/episodes/https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/i-am-not-your-negro-respectability-politics-w-zach/id1361878040?i=1000440238742Righteous Discontent on Amazonhttps://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Discontent-Movement-Baptist-1880-1920/dp/0674769783Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and listen, we have a really special episode. We have a special--and I do mean special--co-host with us today. Please introduce yourself.Felicia: What's up, Living Corporate family? [record scratch]Zach: [?].Felicia: I can't help it. This is Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, A.K.A. the truest MBA you will ever know, and I am the creator, executive producer, and host of the Trill MBA podcast, where my goal is to help you survive and thrive in Corporate America by giving you the truth and being as real as only I can be. So I am super excited to be here with you today, Zach, because I love Living Corporate. I love everything you guys stand for. I love the content you guys are putting out for the people, and so thank you for this opportunity to hang out with you and talk that talk today.Zach: Nah. Definitely the privilege is ours, and we definitely love Trill MBA. You do great content. It was interesting, 'cause in our research trying to figure out, okay, who's doing what it is that we're trying to do, who's out here really trying to have honest, courageous discussions about non-majority experiences in a--in a workplace, and Trill MBA was really, like, the only podcast that we saw that was really focused on that, and it's interesting because we actually had a conversation, like, internally about even, like, progressing and, like, moving forward with the Living Corporate platform, because we wanted to understand if we needed to be here, right? But over time I think what we realized is, like, there's definitely more than enough space for any voices that are aiming to do this, and the fact of the matter is if I look across the entire podcast landscape and I can only see one, then, I mean, that probably means, you know, it needs a little bit more.Felicia: Yeah. We need all different perspectives, 'cause here's the thing. As black people, we are not a monolith. Like, what goes for one black person doesn't go for the other. Hey, guess what? Not all black folks are Christian. Not all black folks are Baptists, you know? You know, like, we're not all the same, but the problem is the media portrays us as that one black friend or that crackhead or that baby momma, and that's what it's been until recently, right?Zach: Until recently, that's true.Felicia: And so we have these stereotypes that we need to fight, and the only way to do that is for many more of us to tell our stories, you know, be real about what's happening to us in different aspects of our lives in corporate spaces. That's just one aspect of, God, so many.Zach: No, that's super true, and I think it's interesting. Even the way that, like, you're framing this, in which I agree, is--I think, like, our vibes are really different, right? Like, our core messages are the same, but our vibes are different. So, like, Trill MBA, you know, y'all are--correct me if I'm wrong. My impression is y'all have been focused on, like, the very visceral experiences of black folks and how to really shed off the BS and really be your full selves at work. Now, Living Corporate, we aim to do the same thing, but we're not just focused on black folks and the framing and the tone in which we take around certain topics are a little bit different, and one could even say it's almost like an exercise in respectability politics in the way that we go about handling our content.Felicia: Yes, which is what we're gonna talk about today, and--Zach: Segue king.Felicia: [laughs] Well, the thing is also, like, I'm very focused on black women, because that's what I know and that's what I understand, and the great thing is a lot of the things that happen to black women in corporate also happen to other non-white males in corporate, but I want to pick out the nuances for black women. So for example, white women in the workplace, they get up in the morning, they'll look in the mirror, and their concern may be, "Okay, does this skirt fit too tight? Because I don't want to draw negative attention or derail my career because I'm coming off too sexy at work," whereas black women look in the mirror and say, "Okay, do I wear my natural hair today, or do I need to put this heat on it and damage it one more again? What meetings I got today?" So it's the same experience in the root of oppression. It just shows itself differently, and that's what I want to bring to the forefront.Zach: It's more than appreciated and needed, but yeah, you're right. We're talking today about respectability politics, and for those--'cause we haven't really said this yet, but we're gonna say it now. So this is, like, a two-parter, y'all. So we're gonna have part one on the Living Corporate side, and then we're gonna have part two on the Trill MBA side. But we just want to kind of give some context in terms of just what it is that we're talking about. So I want to go ahead and give a quick definition of respectability politics, and it's interesting 'cause when you look up respectability politics--like, you, like, Google it, right? So there's a Wikipedia entry, and then there's a couple of, like, posts on Medium, and there's also an article on The Root, but there isn't, like, a super historical breakdown, like, within The New York Times or the Washington Post or even, like, The Atlantic. Like, it's not--it's not necessarily something that we just talk about and really explore it in-depth in the same ways as we have other, like, hot terms, hot button terms, but I do want to talk a little bit about it. So the term "politics of respectability"--I'm reading from the Wiki, y'all, so don't judge me. Ultimately, when you--when you look at the history of respectability politics, it really actually started from the efforts of black women aiming to distance themselves from the negative stereotypes that came with being black in their communities, and it aims to control or really set the terms of behavior to make sure that your behavior kind of adheres to norms, and those norms are typically established by the majority. Stereotypes typically, like, around, like, us being lazy or dumb or violent or immoral, and so a lot of times when you think about, like, respectability politics, think about the difference between Carlton and Will on The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, right? So, like, Carlton was, like, very quote-unquote articulate. He dressed--he did not, you know, sag his pants. He was a respectable guy. He was very intelligent, whereas Will was--he'd sag his pants, he'd laugh, he'd joke. He'd be all loud, you know what I mean? He was--he dated a lot. So, you know, he was not monogamous at all, and so, you know, that's where you see--you definitely see, like, a dichotomy there. And then it says--again, y'all, I'm reading off the Wiki. That's, like, kind of some of the background, but I'm also gonna put the other links in here around some of the other posts that we found, some of the other research that we found. There are research studies that associate part of the high burden of mental health disease for black Americans on assimilationist behaviors. So what does that mean? So the idea or the activity of us aiming to "act white," quote-unquote, puts a mental strain on us, right? Like, the idea that we need to adhere and just, like, behave in a certain way all the time, and that self-policing, that active self-policing, is mentally draining. Researchers Hedwig Lee and Margaret Takako Hicken argue further conversations about respectability politics should always consider the challenge of negotiating every day social spaces as a black American and how this impacts mental health. And then so really though if you want to--if you want to really read more on the origins of respectability politics, check out the book Righteous Discontent: The Women's Movement in the Black Baptist Church, 188-1920, written by Evelyn Brooks Higginbotham. And that's where the term was really coined and created, and it really, again, was to describe the social and political changes in the black community during this time. So this was transitioning from slavery. There was a movement that originated in the black church to really, like, almost reform the black image. This black image was one that was created through oppression, but it was the idea of having the right types of behaviors to be accepted as a functioning member of society. And you see that. Again, like, when you--I remember when I grew up, you know, when I was a little kid, there would be other black people who would be like, you know, "Y'all need to stop acting so black. Y'all need to act white." Right? Or if you're hanging out with your friends, your black friends, they'd be like, "You acting white," if you happen to do well in school or speak well or just reject--like, just reject slang or--it's like, "Oh, you actin' white." It's like, "I'm not acting white. I'm just--" I'm not acting white. Like, that is super problematic, but that's the idea of respectability politics. And then, like--look, so here you go. So y'all want another example? I'm about to say a bunch of buzzwords today. Black Lives Matter. So the Black Lives Matter movement is an example of a movement against respectability politics. The movement was motivated by the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. So we know the story of an unarmed teenager shot by a neighbor. In line with the growth of the Black Lives Matter movement, some celebrities who have typically shied away from the conversations about race have begun to engage the topic. And so we have, like, Shonda Rhimes as an example. Of course we have John Legend, but, like, there's--again, y'all, like, that's the idea. Am I making sense, Felicia? Or am I just kind of all over the place?Felicia: Yeah. I'm over here triggered that--like, that's why I'm like, "Oh, my God, yeah," 'cause I was that kid who was told in elementary school by my elementary school teacher--shout-out Ms. [Sledge?]. Well, I guess she might be married now. [laughs] But, you know, I would come to school and speak in black vernacular from home, and when you're learning, you know how to write sentences and how to write in, you know, "proper English," quote-unquote, you are told then at that point that how you're writing this is wrong. 'Cause I would, like, write things like, "What it is?" [laughs] "How you doin'?" You know? And the teacher's like, "How ARE you doing." "Oh, okay." And yeah, I caught on quickly, and I learned how to code switch without even understanding that's what I was learning to do. It became "This is how you talk at school, and that's how you talk at home." And so for me I also had a nickname, like many black people, and so my nickname is Lisa. And so at home I was Lisa, and at school I was Felicia, and so there began this whole psychological warfare of "Who am I?" [laughs] Or "Who do I need to be?" And always questioning that. So yeah, I'm triggered right now. [laughs]Zach: Well, it's interesting, right? 'Cause basically respectability politics, or adhering to respectability politics, says, "Look, for you to be treated better by those in power, you need to act this way," right? So you need to--you know, at work you need to dress this way. You need to say these things. Your work needs to look like this. Like, and it's so much about quality or even delivery. It's about the methodology of a thing and not necessarily the actual thing itself, and that--again, like, that effort to continue to self-police and tweak and adjust and consider every little thing you do can be genuinely, literally nerve-wracking, right?Felicia: It's dangerous.Zach: It's super dangerous. In my experience in my career, what I've seen is that a lot of times when you have, like, you know, employee resource groups or these types of groups that are, like, basically asking you to huddle around some aspect of shared identity--typically it's race--and for the black ERGs, what I've seen is really just a lot of conversations around respectability, right? So "Hey, when you come to work, you need to, you know, make sure you're dressing like this." "Don't be saying--don't use slang." It's just--it's a bunch of don'ts, right? It's a bunch of--it's a bunch of things for you to assimilate, and I think the biggest thing about respectability politics and just the whole concept of, you know, you need to act this way so that white people approve of you is, look, there's nothing you're going to do--there's nothing you're going to do that is going to dissuade someone from realizing that you're a black person, right? Now, in your mind, I guess if your goal is just to make sure you look like you're one of the good ones, I mean, I guess that's a choice, but ultimately nothing you're going to do is gonna stop them from remembering that you are not white. And it's interesting, because, like, when I talk to older mentors of mine who are the same age as my parents--they've done this for a little while. I say, "What would advice would you give me?" And they're like, "Look, the main thing you need to realize is you will not ever be one of them. Like, ever." Like, that's the--that's the feedback, and, like, that's what they've said over and over and over again is "Hey, you're not them, and you're not ever gonna be them." "So as long as you keep that in mind." He's like "Zach, you know, I know you're doing well and everybody likes you and blah blah blah blah blah, but, like, you're not--you're not gonna be them." And it was just--that hurt my heart. Like, for that to even be--like, for that to be--for that to be the advice that they gave me is--it hurts. Like, it's real, but it hurts. It's like, "Wow, okay." So--Felicia: Hold on. Let's unpack that.Zach: Hm?Felicia: Why does that hurt you and many people? Like, what is it about the fact that you will never be them that you feel--that makes you feel uncomfortable or you feel a certain kind of way?Zach: It's just--it's just sad. Like, it's just really sad, like, because a lot of times when you say, "Well, there is no--there are no races but the human race, and we're all one people," and all this kind of stuff, and it's like, you know, ultimately everybody wants to be accepted, right? Everybody wants to be accepted. So, like, when you're like, "Hey, I don't care what you do, you are always gonna be other. You're always gonna be different." And so it's the--the fact of me always being other and different isn't on its face hurtful. That's not the problem, but what is sad is that, like, the people that I'm talking to who are at the top of their respective fields, they are, you know, again, outside looking in, very respected and highly successful with a huge network of people that don't look like them--that ultimately even they, they go home at their end of their days, or they're in these situations where they still don't feel as if they truly are accepted and belong there. That's sad to me. It hurt. So that's what I mean when I say it hurts.Felicia: Yeah, and that's why I needed you to unpack that, because I didn't want it to be, like, you necessarily want to be them or want to be in the white boy club or want to be a white boy.Zach: [laughs] No.Felicia: [laughs] Right, I just wanted to make that clear.Zach: Definitely not. I'm very--I'm very in love with the skin God gave me. I'm happy with my culture and my identity. It's just more about, like, being other. It's just a different life. It's a different experience, and there's nothing you're gonna be able to do to really--to change that, and not that you should necessarily even want to change that I guess in terms of you being different, but it's just sad. Like, it's just sad to me that, like, I've met people who have been--I mean, they've been working for 40, 50 years. Like, they've been--they've really been putting in all this effort, and you would think at some point they would be truly accepted and truly part of the in group. And there's always gonna be a--there's always gonna be a bit of tension there in terms of "How much do you really belong?"Felicia: Well, and that's the thing, you're not. But we need to realize that that's okay, that it's okay to just live in your truth and be who you are, and I think what's so hard is that as human beings there is a need to feel accepted and to feel like you belong and that you have a place in the space that you occupy, and that rudimentary human need is expressing itself through the nuance of history and culture. You know, basically everything is the fault of slavery, but I think what bothers me the most is that you can't win in this situation of respectability politics because your mentors and those men that were telling you, "Hey, Zach, when you come into this space, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't do this. You need to be this way." That isn't necessarily a rejection of who you are. What that is is survival, and so something that we have to give our ancestors the benefit of the doubt on is that the reason why they were trying to conform and assimilate is so that they can lessen the negative aspects of life that came from being so different and making white people uncomfortable. And so the idea is that if I show you and prove to you that I'm just as human as you are, that I'm just as good as you have claimed to made yourself to be, then you should treat me better, and you should just let me live, but that's the flaw in the thinking, is that you do this activity, you change yourself, you conform, but they will never see you as human. They will never see you as equal. They will never see you as them because the hate and the wanting to be in power and the wanting to be better than and more runs so deep through generations of the culture of Caucasians that you can do all the respectability politics you want, and it will get you so far--it will help you survive--but it won't help you thrive.Zach: It will, it will. No, it won't. And I think it's just--it's so interesting, because I would say, like, the most respectable person that we've ever seen on a public stage in our generation is Barack Obama, right?Felicia: Oh, God. Poor Barack.Zach: Like, Barack Obama is the most respectable person ever to respectable ever. Like, he is super--Felicia: But yet what I--and see, this is why I love Barack, right? Because, in a very rebellious way, he would let his blackness be known in public. So, like, when you see him greeting, you know, white people, and he's shaking their hands. "How are you doing? Hey. Good to see you. How are you doing?" And then a brother comes in that line, and it's a whole full dap up.Zach: I hear you. I hear you that there would be certain things he would do to let y'all know that he's--he is black, but what I'm saying is that when you look at his overall profile, like, this man has had--he always spoke very well. He went to prestigious colleges. Rarely cursed, like, in mixed company. He always kept his cool, right? Like, he was never angry. People used to complain about the fact that he didn't get angry enough. He dressed very respectably. But ultimately, people still talked to him crazy. People still called--people still attacked and degraded his wife. People still attacked and degraded his children. People still, you know, questioned his--questioned his competence and made a bunch of--a bunch of extremely racist statements. It was interesting, 'cause like, "Wow, man. This dude is the president of the free world. He's the leader of the free world, and yet he can't--"Felicia: He can't win.Zach: He can't win. He can't win. Like--Felicia: He can't win. Can't win 'em.Zach: I want to say like Ta-Nehisi Coates in The Atlantic said. Man, I watched this man, like--he said, like, "walk on ice and never slip once," right? Or something like that. It was like he was--he was squeaky clean, and yet, like--go ahead.Felicia: I was gonna say but then think about if Barack Obama had acted up half as bad--just as half as bad--as this fool, 45, that's in office right now. Can you imagine the David Duke-like person this country would have elected? Because I feel like the current person that holds the office of president--I can't even bring myself to call him president, but that thing in office right now, he is a direct result of Barack Obama's respectability politics and Barack Obama being this entity of a human that had to walk this tightrope line in behavior and manner and actions and, you know, trying to do the best he could with what he had, and they still hated him for it, and they just hated the fact that he was black. And because of that, it was like, "Well, this--" I ain't even gonna say it on your side, but you know what they called him, and now this is the--this is like, "Okay, we got rid of him. We're gonna fix it now," and then, you know, it's, like, swinging the pendulum all the way to the wrong side.Zach: Right. Well, you know, I believe it was in Martin Luther King's--I think it was either Where Do We Go From Here or the Letter from Birmingham Jail, but he talks about--he talks about white backlash to black progression, right, and he talks about the fact that, like, whenever there's something that happens where black folks make some type of progress in being more free, then the white majority--and again, for those who are listening, not every single white person. We're talking about the historical narrative of America--that there's some type of backlash, and I want to say, like, Van Jones--Van Jones, a couple years ago--as problematic as he can be from time to time--he used the term "whitelash," and that's what it is, right? And this is not a political podcast, right, but it's--to me, like, it's the biggest example to me of respectability politics and the narrative of, like, look, like, if they're not gonna listen to Barack Obama, with his very prestigious pedigree and vast intelligence, they're likely not gonna--they're likely not gonna feel you either. So, like, how do you--so then, like, the question to me then is what does it look like to reject respectability politics, reject respectability, and be your best self? Right? Like, that's really what I want to understand. I want to understand what advice it is we have for our listeners who--you know, who have--again, black culture, like, we--especially professional black culture is largely shaped by respectability politics. Like, you're gonna go and show up to these things. You're gonna talk a certain way. You're gonna not do certain things. You're gonna not have certain conversations. You're going to laugh at certain jokes. You're gonna laugh a certain way. You're going to dress a certain way. Like, because of respectability politics, because you want to fit in, and the point that you made earlier about, like, it's not to shame anybody. The origin of respectability politics and the origin of attempted assimilation is survival, right? And that translates today. Like, we act and carry ourselves in a certain way because we want to get promoted or we don't want to get fired or, you know, we want a bonus, or we want--like, there are things that we believe that respectability will earn us, will reward us, and so what I'm really curious about is that conversation. How do we encourage folks to be their full selves, right? How do we encourage people to fully embrace who they are and really be their authentic selves? Because only in being your most authentic self can you really be your best at work.Felicia: Right, and I think we have to really get honest with ourselves and understand that we're operating out of fear. And so this is something that I'll be touching on in my book. I'm working on a book right now to come out at the beginning of next year, and it's focused on career management for black women. And so one thing we've always been taught is that, you know, you need to show up in a certain way, and what I'm finding through my research is that the black women specifically that are doing very well in corporate America--so they're in the pipeline, they have senior-level sponsors. So their sponsors are CMOs, CEOs, CFOs, CIOs. Their sponsors are in the C-Suite, and they are being put into the succession pipeline for higher levels of leadership. Those black women are actually doing well because--they do something that's very unique in that they decide that they're gonna be themselves, but in addition to being themselves, they decide to share their story, one, and two, they also decide to bring their most positive self to work every day. So one thing they still keep I think from the realm of respectability politics is the idea that I have to fight against the stereotype of being the angry black woman. And I honestly think this is okay, because my grandma, she always told me "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, baby," and that holds true to this day. So when you come into an organization and you face those challenges and the stress people try to cause you, whether necessary or not, when you can come in with your happiest self, your most pleasant self, your most positive self, and still bring the critical thinking--push back in a way that's a win-win for everybody, you know? Tell people about you and who you are and your personality, which we've always been taught "Don't do that 'cause they're gonna use it against you later." When you make that change, that's where you start to see a resonating with the humanity of the people you work with that don't look like you, because now instead of being afraid of you they start to understand you as a human, and you're not just this black entity that they don't know and they're afraid of. And so that's the thing that we need to change. We need to focus more on relationship building and less on conforming and putting our heads down and thinking that our work is going to speak for ourselves, because work is only 10% of the equation in success. So you can do all the great work you want to. The mediocre white man is still gonna get your promotion. Why? Because he has relationships. And so we can now move from this idea of respectability politics, because it's dangerous. It's dangerous to our mental health. It's dangerous because it doesn't help us fight stereotypes the way we think it is. It's like you're trying to call the stereotype as wrong, and first of all, stereotypes are just generalizations that have a bit of truth in them. We all have a Cousin Pookie. Yes, it's true. He might not be named Pookie, but we all have him. You know who your Cousin Pookie is. I got a couple of--Zach: Every family has a Cousin Pookie. Every family, irrespective of race. Right.Felicia: But the thing that we need to get white people to understand is that our Cousin Pookie is their cousin Billy Bob or their cousin Ray-Ray.Zach: Correct. Exactly, yes. Everybody has one. Everybody has a problematic--like, a challenging family member. Everybody has problems in their family. There's--like, the things that are so negatively attributed to black culture and brown culture, those things are happening in all families, all communities, because life happens. Because life happens and we are all human beings.Felicia: Yes! And that's what we all need to understand. This idea of thinking that there's aspects of your life that will make you better than the next person next to you and somehow make them less human than you are, like somehow you're a better human, that's the crux of prejudice and racism and just all of these ideas of you trying to somehow elevate yourself on the backs of someone else, and in order to do that and to somehow keep your conscience, you have to dehumanize the person who you're standing on. And in this country it plays out around race, but, you know, this is a human problem, but the more that we use our intellect to recognize it and recognize that respectability politics was only a way for us to survive in white spaces, that that doesn't work now. And you can try all you want to. You're not going to win. Barack is a very good example of that, and so now what do we do? We tell our stories. We humanize ourselves to the world. We share our culture. We share all of it though. The fun parts, the sad parts, the raw, human parts, the elated, joyful parts, and that's how we start to shift in the minds of the next generations that we are not a people that you can continue to step on and elevate yourself, because we're gonna move, and you're gonna fall on your butt.Zach: And, you know, I'm really appreciative of this conversation. I mean, it's tough because when you think about--I was raised to really believe that "Look, if you just put your head down, you work really hard, you keep your business to yourself, you don't tell your story, then you're gonna go far." And it's like you said, that's not working now. Like, storytelling is the chief medium of connection, and it's growing to be that, especially in corporate spaces. Like, those who can best tell stories, those who can best connect the dots in a way in a narrative form. And not, like, in a bulleted list, but, like, truly how they communicate is effective storytelling. Those are the folks that are making an impact, and that's a different point of direction for us, and it's, like, very much so against the grain of what I believe we've been taught historically will keep us safe.Felicia: Right, but I want you to realize - everything that we've been taught was taught out of fear. So it was "I'm afraid for you to walk in this space, and I need you to keep yourself safe, and so, you know, these are the things you need to do," which is--I mean, but literally it was about life or death, right? Like, if you walked in and you looked at a white man in the eye, you could die, you know? And so respectability politics had its place, but I think now we need to move forward and realize it is a new day, and so for you, Zach, I would encourage you to be more brave, be more courageous, and take those chances that feel, like, risky, like, real risky, and go for it, because those are the--those are the things that get you promoted.Zach: Oh, no doubt.Felicia: When you go to the CEO and be like, "Hey, I'm Zach. I just wanted to introduce myself. How are you doing today?" Now everybody will be like, "You just walked up to the CEO with your black self? And what did you say?" Even your white boss will be in fear. But the thing is, when you do that though, you're humanizing yourself. You're humanizing this person who has this title, and everybody walks around on eggshells around [them,] and now this person wants to connect with you because you opened the door, and they're just humans. And so we need to figure out, as black people, how do we get comfortable in our own skin in the workplace to make those human connections with the white men that are old and stodgy and they have resting bitch face that--nobody ever calls out that old white men have resting bitch face, but, you know, like, how do you get past all of that facade and go talk to them and meet them and learn about them and ask them to learn from them and share with them the things that you know about their organization that they'll never see because they're the CEO?Zach: No, that's real. And, I mean, it's interesting that you'd say that, 'cause even, like--and I haven't really ever shared this yet, but, like, my promotion journey to get to a manager role--and I got promoted at my last firm, and I'm at a new firm now, a new consulting firm now, but it had a lot to do with me telling my story and putting myself out there and connecting and networking with fairly senior folks, and I don't--and I don't think it's exclusive--and I don't think you're saying this, and I recognize Trill MBA's focus, but it's a chance to--Felicia: It's for everybody.Zach: It's for everybody, right? It's for every non-white person.Felicia: It's for white people too--it's for white men too. Like, and that's the thing we need to realize. Like, in some way, respectability politics also plays out from an economic standpoint. So you will have poor white men whose narrative is "I was raised in the back woods of Alabama, and my parents scraped together enough money to send me to Alabama University, and so then I went to grad school, I got into Harvard, and now I've unlocked this world of elitism." And then they hide, you know, their hick family, you know? They feel like they have to fit into this elite people, you know?Zach: That's real.Felicia: So these things happen in different ways, but they happen to all of us, and so I don't want to deny anybody's experience. I just want to call out, "Hey, as black women, this is how this happens for us," in a way that humanizes us and in a way that you can understand.Zach: No, that's real, and so what I want us to do is I want us to go ahead and, for our listeners...Felicia: Oh, it's about to get real. [laughs]Zach: Check us out. We're about to go ahead--and you're gonna listen to part two of this conversation on the Trill MBA show. That's right. So, look, we've got, like, a crossover thing. It's really cool, right? Like, it's kind of like when you have--I don't know, what's all the shows on NBC? You got Law & Order, and then you've got SVU and, like, you know, all the characters kind of cross over. You're like, "Oh, snap. Oh, [?]. They're on the--" You know, so it's kind of like that for your podcasts. For the loyalists over on Living Corporate, y'all get to now hear me on Trill MBA and vice versa, you know what I mean? So it's kind of like that.Felicia: Yeah. You're the Olivia Pope, and then I'm gonna be Viola Davis. I always forget her character's name. I know that's horrible, but she is so ratchet on that show. Like, she killed people and everything, so I don't think--Zach: Oh, you're talking about How to Get Away With Murder?Felicia: Yes! Yes. You know, they did that crossover episode. Annalise Keating! I'm gonna be Annalise Keating, and you're Olivia Pope. So you all statuesque and, like, put together, white knighting it, and then I'm over here breaking laws 'cause I'm a rebel.Zach: Wow. [laughs]Felicia: So if you want to come over and hear us be real black, come on over to the Trill MBA Show, where--what we're gonna break down though, we're gonna give you tangible, tactical tips on how to combat respectability politics for yourself in your workplace over at Trill MBA.Zach: All right, y'all. Well, listen here. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out everywhere at Living Corporate. That's right. So if you Google--that's right, Google--Living Corporate, we'll pop up. We're @LivingCorp_Pod on Twitter. We're @LivingCorporate on Instagram. Livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com email address, and then we're living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com for the website. We're also livingcorporate.co. We're, like, all the Living Corporates dot whatever except for Living Corporate dot com because Australia is still holding onto that domain. So we're gonna have to see what's going on with the AU so we can get that domain, but yeah. If you have any questions you'd like for us to read on the show or anything you'd like for us to shout out, man, look, our DMs are open, okay? Twitter DM, Instagram DM, Facebook Messenger, and you can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also contact us through our website, which I've already talked about. And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter through our website as well, okay? Let's see here. Shout-out to JJ. Shout-out to all the folks who are checking out the podcast. Shout-out to Trill MBA. You're gonna see us over on the next one. This has been Zach, and you have been listening to myself--Felicia: Felicia Ann Rose Enuha, A.K.A. the Trillest MBA you will ever know.Zach: JJ, drop the air horns right here. Yes, right on the outro. We're gonna put the air horns on here for my girl Felicia. Thank you so much. Thank y'all for listening to us. We're gonna be back. Peace.Felicia: That was so cool. [laughs]

We have the pleasure of speaking with Minda Harts, the founder and CEO of The Memo LLC, a career platform that helps women of color advance in the workplace. She speaks with us about a number of topics, including her new book coming out later this year titled "The Memo: What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table" and some ugly truths she says keeps women of color from securing their own.Check out Minda on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram, and don't forget to preorder her book from wherever you buy books!Connect with us! https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Welcome to Living Corporate. This is Ade, and Zach isn't here today, but we do have an interview we had with the wonderful Minda Harts. Minda describes herself as a founder, philanthropist, and seat creator, which--seat creator is incredible to me as a phrase in and of itself, but Minda is a beast. She is an adjunct professor of public service of NYU's Robert F. Wagner's Graduate School of Public Service. That was a mouthful. She's also the founder of The Memo LLC, which actually I got regularly in my inbox, faithfully, before we even had a conversation with Minda. It's a career development company for women of color, and her debut book, which is called The Memo, comes out this fall with the Hachette Book Group/Seal Press. She's been featured in Forbes, CNBC, The Guardian, The Washington Post, and Fast Company. You can also tune in weekly for her career podcast as well for professional women of color called Secure the Seat. So obviously you can see that there's been some overlap in our interests as well as Minda's. Minda has conducted workshops all over the world and keynotes with ad corporations like Time Inc. Y'all may have heard of that little shop. South by Southwest. It's this popular little thing. You may not have heard of it. The Campaign for Black Male Achievement and the New York Public Library. She's also been at universities like Western Illinois University, NYU Stern, North Carolina A&T, and Cornell University. All that said, you may be expecting a few things from listening to this conversation, and what you're gonna hear between her and Zach will be some amazing strategies for women of color. So keep listening. We don't have any Favorite Things for you this week, 'cause y'all know how I am, but got you next week, promise. See you soon. This has been Ade. Peace.Zach: Minda, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Minda: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Zach.Zach: Oh, no problem at all. Really excited to have you here. Would you mind--for those of us who don't know you, tell us a little bit about yourself. Minda: Yeah. So my name is Minda Harts, and I am the founder and CEO of a career platform that helps women of color advance in the workplace called The Memo, and prior to The Memo I spent 15 years in corporate and non-profit spaces as a consultant. And I also teach at NYU Wagner and have a book coming out later this year called The Memo: What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table.Zach: That's incredible. Now, look, let's kick this off with this question, 'cause I think it's a good preface for this discussion. So you were recently quoted in a piece by the New York Times speaking to the anxieties around the motherhood penalty, and you said, "Because we are often only one or two or few in the company, we strategically have to plan our every move." Could you talk to us a little bit more about what you mean? Not only in the context of bringing your kids to work or having children, but being strategic period as a black woman and, larger, as a woman of color.Minda: Yeah, absolutely. I think that in that article too I also say that, you know, "A joyous day for one mother or father is mental gymnastics for another," and I think that often times, if you are the only ones, dependent upon how you're being treated in the workplace, you may or may not want your child to come to work with you because of how you've been treated in the workplace. And I think when we talk of micro-aggressions and bias and white privilege, I think our counterparts often don't think of what that means for us to show up. So again, you know, the pizza party in the jumpy house might be fun for all the other kids, but, you know, if I'm the only one in the workplace and I'm already dealing with all of this other stuff, you know, do I want to be subjected to that while my child is there with me? You know, so we have to think through. And then if one bad thing happens, our counterpart's child is being cute, but our child is being bad, you know? So we have to think about what those messages are. So each day, whether you have children or you don't, we have to really be strategic and calculate every step.Zach: So let's talk about your podcast also for a second--it's fire--called Secure the Seat.Minda: Thank you.Zach: No problem. What was your journey in, like, creating that space?Minda: Yeah. You know what's funny? I would say I battled myself for almost a year before I started Secure the Seat. I just didn't see myself as a podcaster. I thought, "Well, I have The Memo," the career platform with my co-founder Lauren. "We're fine over here," but what I realized was I was missing out on talking to some of the other issues that I think people of color, women of color, face, and also how can our allies or how can those who don't identify the way we do, how can they be helpful? And I think that part of a seat at the table is it's great to be at the table, but securing it looks much different, and also passing that baton, bringing others that look like us in the room with us, and I think we don't talk about that enough as people of color.Zach: I recognize your entire brand, your entire platform, is really wrapped around or centered around empowering women of color in the workplace and just period, and we know that you have a book coming out called The Memo. Can you talk to us a little bit about what led you to work on this book and write this book? And was it a similar journey to the Secure the Seat podcast? Was there any one moment that really hit you and sparked the fire and made you say, "Hey, I need to write this."?Minda: Yeah. It's interesting, because I had an idea back in 2012. So now, you know, it's 2019, so sometimes we just sit on things for a long time, right? And I knew I wanted to do something, but I didn't know what that something was, and it didn't manifest itself until 2015. And I realized that--what is my legacy going to be in Corporate America? What is my legacy going to be in the non-profit sector? And if there aren't people advocating for women that look like me, for, you know, men that might identify as, you know, people of color, then who--if no one else is gonna do it, then I need to be stepping up to the plate and add my unique slice of genius to this puzzle, because it's one thing to get yourself in the room, but if you're not bringing others along with you or sharing that secret sauce, then what are we doing, right? And so when we think about those who came before us, like the Harriet Tubmans, the Frederick Douglasses, the Malcolm Xs, they secured the seat so we could secure our seat, right? And so I want to be one of those people that played a role, even if it's a small role, in just having people think different. We talk a lot about leaning in, but what we're seeing is a lot of us are leaning out, and that's what I don't want to happen, because we've worked too hard to step away now.Zach: Absolutely. And it's interesting. I read a piece recently saying that leaning in does not work if you're a black woman. If you're a woman of color, like, it doesn't work. And I'm not using women of color and black women interchangeably because those are unique experiences and identities, but what I mean is that, like, even that language and, like, some of the frameworks in which we discuss these things, they are centered around whiteness, and some of these to be looked at or examined differently when you're talking about black and brown experiences. Your whole point around leaning out, that's really interesting. Can you, like, talk a little bit more about what you--like, what do you mean by people are leaning out as others are trying to lean in?Minda: Yeah. So we talk a lot about diversity and inclusion and equity, in terms of marginalized or underrepresented groups, and what we're seeing is that--at least for black women in particular, that a lot of us are leaving Corporate America and starting our own companies, and--which is great, that is to be celebrated, but we're leaving because of frustration, because we're not being invested in, because all of the education that we've obtained is not moving us forward. And so if they're not moving us forward, we're moving out, right? And so we're being cut off from this opportunity on the corporate side to obtain generational wealth in that regard, because the reality is not all of us will be successful entrepreneurs when we leave the traditional workforce. And so I'm saying that we almost have no choice but to kind of lean out of that, and my thing is, like, let's put the pressure on these companies for us to--for them to let us have a stake in the ground and move us up, if they say that's what they want to do. Zach: Now, look, I'm not trying to have you give out the sauce for free, but your website says that The Memo addresses some of the ugly truths that keep women of color from the table. Again, without you giving the whole book away on the podcast, could you talk a little bit about what some of those ugly truths are?Minda: Yeah. So I can't give all the sauce, but you can go and preorder it wherever you like to buy books.Zach: Ow. Yes.Minda: 'Ey. [laughs] Help me secure my seat. But what I will say is a lot of the business books, a lot of the career books, are centered--as you said--around the experience of white people in the workplace, right? And then we read those books, and we take what we can out of 'em and make that one-size-fit-all work for us, and I'm saying no. There are unique experiences that I've had as a black woman and that other women of color have experienced in similar ways, and I want to shine a lot on that "You don't understand what it's like showing up in a--being the one out of 90 employees," being that only person of color. And I know I speak from the lens of being a black woman and a woman of color, but I believe this book is important because as we talk about the future of work, this will require anybody who sees themselves in a management position to understand the unique experiences of their talent, and that requires all hands on deck.Zach: 100% right. And it's so interesting when we talk about the future of work and we talk about how workforces are getting browner, right? The next five to ten, fifteen, twenty years, like, the workforce will look dramatically different than it does today, and it's gonna be more and more important for there to be content and thought leadership around "What does it mean to be other?" Right? And again, as the workforces get browner, that doesn't mean that leadership is necessarily gonna get browner, but it does mean that there are gonna be more non-white folks in these spaces who are gonna, like, be new to these spaces. So what is it gonna mean for them to navigate and really be effective and be successful and not drive themselves crazy, for the lack of a better word, in trying to, like, really navigate and how they can really operate and be successful here. And so really speaking to that--you already alluded to this a little bit, about allyship. So I believe black and brown folks aren't really gonna go far in the corporate space without strong allies. Can you talk a little bit about what good allyship means to you or what allyship looks like to you?Minda: Yeah, absolutely. And that's--and you made a really great point. Just because the workforce itself is becoming more Crayola-like, right? More colors added to the spectrum, but it doesn't mean that the leadership is going to be, and that's the part that I'm like, "No." The future of work requires us to be at that table too, and so part of that allyship, that leadership--at least in my book I talk about shifting the language, because a lot of people are wearing this allyship badge like it's a sticker, right? Like I could go to any local store and just put this badge on and that's--and I'm good, and really I'm saying "Let's shift it to success partners." And I talk about that in my book. It's like, "No, you partner with me on the success." You know, "What is it gonna take for me to be where you are?" Or, you know, you provide a road map for me, an accelerated opportunity. I've been here, I've done the work, and it's gonna require people adding more seats, and when I was in Corporate America I had this one white man--shout-out to Steve. I don't know where you are today, but--Zach: Shout-out to Steve. Put the air horns on for Steve. [imitating the horns]Minda: [laughs] Yes, yes, and he had the privilege. He had the status, you know? He had the agency to be able to say, "I see you," and, you know, "Come through, pull up, and let me give you the shot," and I think more and more people in privileged positions need to be giving others that opportunity, because you'll never know what I'm able to do if I never have that opportunity to do it, and that requires you to partner with me.Zach: Man, 100%, and I can say that there was--there's not been anything that I've been able to achieve in my professional career that has not been, in some level, like, strong support from some white person, right? Like, in the corporate space. Like, I cannot look back and be like, "I did this by myself." I always tell people that I mentor--typically I'm mentoring black folks, also some brown folks, and I'll say, you know, "What's behind every strong black or brown person?" And they'll typically--99% of the time they'll say, "Their parents or their partner?" I'll be like, "No, a white person." And they laugh, but it's true. When you're talking about that sponsorship, allyship--like, when you talk about that support, someone using their privilege so that you can secure your seat at the table, like, you need that. I just don't think that it's practical or reasonable to expect that if you are a minority in these spaces that your very small network on your own is gonna be able to achieve and grow and get everything that you want to have, you know? You need some partnership. You said that--I loved that. "Success partners." So, like, could you just expand on that a little bit more? 'Cause I really like the way that's reframed. Can you talk--just unpack that a little bit more, about success partners?Minda: Yeah. Well, thank you, first and foremost, but I think it's--like you said, the majority right now is, you know, white men and women at these tables, making these decisions, and so they're gonna have to look out of the ivory tower and say, "You know what? Let's identify some people that are not in the room, that have talent, that have the ability if they had the opportunity. Let me partner with them and give them these accelerated career paths," and I think that's the only way we're going to do it, is for them to look around the room, take the time to see who's missing, and go and get them, right? Because we're there. It's not--it's not a pipeline issue, but if we keep leaning out due to frustration, then it will be a pipeline issue. So allyship is great, but now we need to shift into this partnership. So partner with somebody who's missing from the room and bring them up. And it's not charity. It's just giving people an opportunity, because 9 times out of 10 they have the opportunity to get to where they are.Zach: That's the wild part too, is that it's not charity. The people that you're identifying, the people that are out there that are not in the room--there's plenty of people out there that should be in the room more than you should be in there, right? Like, there are people out there that have earned it. But that's a really good point too, but I think--I don't know. I've seen it where--like, I've had people who have been allies to me, and there's a certain kind of sense of charity, right? Like they're doing me a favor. And I take it anyway, Minda, 'cause, like, hey, look, I'm just tryna get to the bag. So, like, hey, if you feel like you're doing me a favor, go ahead and feel like you're doing me a favor.Minda: Exactly, exactly. [laughs]Zach: But, you know, when you talk in terms of just, like, internally, intrinsically, you're not--that's a toxic mindset to have, and it's false, right? And it's kind of racist, lowkey, 'cause it's like, "No, this person has earned it." Like, I've seen--you tell me if you've seen this before, but I've seen in the working space where there's people who have exceled and they'll, like--they're seen as, like, really top performers, and then you kind of just, like, peel back a couple layers--you're like, "You're not that sweet. You're not that good." You know what I'm saying? [laughs]Minda: [laughs] If we were doing some, like, hardcore Inspector Gadget work, I think we would find out that a lot of people who are in that room should not be in that room. I was passed over for a promotion that they were quote-unquote "grooming me" for, right? And they ended up not giving it to me, and I had to--I typically wasn't the type of person to kind of challenge this, but I'm like, "Wait, I've worked here way too long for this to have happened to me," and I respectfully asked, you know, "Why did you decide to bring in someone who had less experience than me, has never really done this job?" And the response--I kid you not, it was, you know, "You're young. You're gonna have more opportunities. He's a good guy with a nice wife."[record scratch]Zach: Wow. Minda: [laughs]Zach: But then, see, if you threw a table or something, they would say you were crazy. That's nuts. Wow.Minda: I was crazy. I was crazy. Okay, but I've been working here 10+ years, grinding, hustling, taking on all of the top projects, and you're gonna tell me that someone who has 2 years experience, doesn't have the relationships I have, but because he's A. a white man--I don't know that that's necessarily why, but he was a white man and is a white man, and he has a nice wife. I'm like, "Okay. That's where we are." And in that moment, I realized that this is not the table I need to be at, because I'm gonna keep working my butt off and doing all of these great things. And I couldn't--I wasn't in a position, to be honest with you, to leave when that happened. I had to stay in that position another year and a half heart-broken while I helped him get up to speed before I was able to leave. And so where do the broken hearts go, right? So yeah.Zach: That's why I'm just so excited. I love the work that you're doing. I love your platform because--obviously I've watched you from afar as like--you're outspoken, you're courageous, you're gregarious, you're relationship-driven, you're a strong networker, all of these different things, but you shouldn't have to be all of those things to get the support that you need at your job, right? Like, there's plenty of people out there--black and brown folks out here who are a little bit more reserved and who aren't as sure and things of that nature, and they're struggling. Like, you just said, "Where do the broken hearts go?" There's plenty of people at work right now who don't want to be there, who don't feel supported, but don't know what to do, and that's just all the more reason why your platform is so important, so I just want to thank you again for even having it. Before we go, do you have any parting words?Minda: Well, first off I want to say thank you, and thank you to podcasts and platforms like yours, because we all need each other, right? When you're successful, you're successful. When I'm successful, you're successful. And there can be so many different ways that we get this information out to all of the broken hearts, right? And I think it's really important that we talk about experiences, and it was a journey. I just want to leave everyone saying that the Minda I am talking to Zach right now, it was a process. It was a journey. It was a process. I was not this outspoken. I was not--I've always been driven, but what I'd say a silent assassin, right? Like, I didn't really do a lot of vocalizing, but I realized that there a lot of people who, like you said, are not in a position to speak for themselves, and if I can help talk about the stuff that they can't in these settings and their bosses hear about it or read the book, then we're winning together.Zach: I love that, and you know what? Also before we go, go ahead and please plug your stuff. Like, where can people learn about you? Where can people preorder the book? Where can we get more of Minda Harts?Minda: Well, thank you. This is really important to me, this book, because when we were pitching it to the publishing houses, my agent and I, we kept hearing that there's not a--there's no one that would want to hear this. There's not an audience for this type of material, and there is, right? And so please go and preorder this book. Let's go and show the powers that be that we matter, our experiences matter. It doesn't matter if you're a woman of color or not, but there are career nuggets in here that will help each and every one of us who are underrepresented in the workforce. So wherever you like to buy books, it's "The Memo: What Women of Color Need to Know to Secure a Seat at the Table," and I'm most active on Twitter @MindaHarts, so find me there.Zach: Ay. First of all, Minda, thank you again, and thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com, please say the dash. Or you could say livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org. We've got all the livingcorporates except for livingcorporate.com, 'cause Australia got that. Australia, we're still looking at y'all. You need to give us that domain. Don't play. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, look, just DM us, right? Like, get in our Insta DMs, get in our Twitter DMs. They're always open, right? Or you can just email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon @LivingCorporate as well. And that does it for us on the show. This has been Zach. You've been talking with the--that's right, the--Minda Harts. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Zach and Ade respond to a couple more listener letters. Keep sending them in, y'all! The topics discussed in this one include being pregnant at your job and finding yourself unable to verbally fit in with your coworkers.Connect with us on our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: You know what? Wait a minute. Why do we always do me first? What is that about? You never go, "Hey, y'all. It's Ade," and I go, "It's Zach." Like, we always--we always do it like that. What's up with that?Ade: I don't know if that's true. I feel like I have gone first. I don't know. 'Cause I do the countdown, so I expect that you do the--Zach: Well, there you go.Ade: Yeah, I just--Zach: I don't know. I just feel like--I feel like if we're gonna dismantle patriarchy, like, we need to dismantle it at every--you know what I'm saying, every corner.Ade: I feel like you're just using that as an excuse to not go first.Zach: [laughs] Maybe it's 'cause--so when I walk around with people, like my wife, with women at my job, I open the door, and then I push for--I encourage for them to go first, and I kind of feel like it just doesn't rub me right 'cause--it rubs me wrong rather, because it's like I feel like I'm walking through the door first. Anyway, it's okay. Listen, y'all. You're listening to [inaudible]--Ade: Does anybody ever hold the door for you, Zach?Zach: You know what? My coworkers on my current project. They are--they hold the door open, and it's kind of awkward, and they go, "Yeah, that's right, Zach. I'm opening the door for you," and we laugh, and then I walk in the room. Ade: Wonderful. I was about to say I'd open the door for you.Zach: I believe that. I believe you would. I believe you would.Ade: Totally.Zach: Well, look for those listening in, you are listening to Zach and Ade on Living Corporate, and today we have--da-da-da-daaa--more listener letters. What's up?Ade: Sure do.Zach: So it's interesting. It was like--I feel like we've been asking for listener letters, and now they're coming in. Really excited about that. Please continue to send 'em in. We're gonna try to do at least two per episode, like, episodes that we do this, so--and we're trying to, like, churn through them, right, so we can get back to them, so that way y'all know that we're actually responding to y'all's notes. 'Cause y'all do be sending 'em in, and I feel bad--like, some of these we've been sitting on too long, but--[laughs] so I feel bad, so we're gonna start actually being a little bit more--I don't want to use the word aggressive--intentional, right, in getting these back to y'all. All right, well, go ahead. This first one I'm looking at, Ade--I'ma let you go ahead and ride on this one, and I may provide color commentary, but I feel like this is definitely a space that you would probably be better to speak in.Ade: I actually disagree. I think this is one that we should tag team, primarily because I have--I've never been in this dilemma before at least, so I don't know that I have the full range of context and experience, but I think it would be good to share this. Anyway, the subject of today's listener letter--it's called "Bun in the Oven." All right, let's go. It goes, "Hi, Zach and Ade. Thanks so much for this platform. I am dealing with a situation at work and I'm not certain what to do. I work in a relatively conservative area, and I'm pretty far from home. I've been in my industry for three years and in my current position for one. I'm used to working 60-80 hour weeks--whoo--at work, and I'm not alone in this. Most of my team tends to work long hours, but the pay is great and it's really rewarding work. Here's my problem - I recently discovered that I'm pregnant. I do not have a long-term partner, and I'm concerned about my ability to keep up with the pace at work and how my coworkers might react. What should I do here? Any advice welcome. Thanks again. Leah."Zach: Hm.Ade: All right.Zach: So now why do--what commentary or insight do you think I could add in this? I'm curious. What do you--how do you think I could--I could [laughs] provide--what value could I add to this conversation as a man? Like, you help me understand.Ade: I just--I feel as though, as someone who is more senior in their career, you might have more strategic ways of approaching this conversation than I might. You want to take a stab at it?Zach: Oh, okay. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. Of course I've been in a variety of situations. I work with folks all the time who get pregnant. I think what I've seen--I'm just gonna talk about what I've observed that I've seen go well is people just being really open about kind of what's going on if they are pregnant, utilizing their resources. So they talk to their leads, they talk to HR, they understand and, like, really explore their benefits, and then they just start making plans and saying, "Okay, well, look. You know, I'm pregnant, and this is gonna be--" "And I'm looking at my benefits so that I can go on leave. This is my work plan up 'til then." Talking, and, like, you know, just kind of being transparent with your leadership about, like, "Hey, because I'm pregnant, my work schedule may need--I need to adjust my work schedule in this way or that way." You talked about the fact that you're used to working 60-80 hour weeks. Like, those things may need to shift or change if possible, but again, I think it's--what I've seen is people who are really just open about it, because the last thing of course you want is stress. So the more things you can do to kind of destress the situation the better, and that's what I've seen--that's what I've seen work.Ade: That sounded like a lot. I don't know why you discounted yourself from the conversation and sharing your knowledge to begin with. Yeah, I just had to fact-check you right quick. Anyway... all right, so, Leah, first of all, thank you for writing in, and congratulations on this new journey on which you're about to embark. I think I would say, first and foremost, that you wrote about a couple of different things here, one that you're in a conservative area, two that you're far from home, three that you're working really, really long hours, and four that you're kind of doing this alone, and I would say that all the more reason to find your allies and your sponsors and your mentors at work and disclosing to them, as you feel comfortable, the situation you're in. Two would be that you don't concern yourself with keeping up with the pace at work. 60-80 hour weeks are great when you are not growing a whole other human being inside your body, but those are the circumstances in which you find yourself. So I don't think that it's wise to put the expectation upon yourself that you'll be able to keep up with 60-80 hour weeks. That's not even something that people who aren't pregnant want to do at a sustained pace for a very long time, let alone someone who's literally sharing resources with another human being. So don't put that pressure on yourself. Don't put that expectation on yourself. Definitely be realistic with what you can and cannot handle, and like Zach was saying earlier, start figuring out what your work plans are, what your contingencies are, and have honest conversations with your leadership about what it's gonna take from now 'til, you know, Baby Drop Day for you to continue being fulfilled and content in your career and also preparing for, again, this new part of your life that you're going to have to deal with. So Leah, the one thing that did concern me about this letter was that you--you mentioned that you were concerned about how your coworkers might react. I feel as though that is not something that should even pop up on your radar. I hope that you feel supported at work, and if you do not I think that it is--this would be the chief time to get some time on your--on the calendar with your HR person or with your allies or with your mentors and get a sense of what it means to split your time or to start removing some things from your plate, and it's OK to do that. It's OK to say, "Hey, I do not currently have the capacity for this at this time, and it's only gonna get--my plate is only gonna get fuller from henceforth, so how do we manage this in such a way to ensure I'm still having a fulfilling career and, you know, not being worked to death?" Leah, take care of yourself. Zach, is there anything else you'd like to add?Zach: You know, I think--the other piece is that you said that you're--you know, you're by yourself. Like, you're far away from home. So, you know, maybe there's an opportunity--and, again, every job is different. I know something that I was told, especially coming into the consulting space--and I don't know if you're consulting or not, but coming into consulting--I think it applies to just jobs in general, but it's like, "Hey, look, you don't get what you don't ask for," and so I wonder if there's any opportunity for you to work remotely on things, like, just for your whole working situation to change. I don't know the context of the role that you have at your job or, you know, how much of that is dependent on you being in the office, but, like, even if, like, a couple months, even before you take, you know, official leave for your baby, you could--you know, maybe there's an opportunity for you to work from home. Like, you know, there's other things. So I guess kind of going back to what I said at the beginning, which is, like, just being really transparent with the people that you trust, with your leadership, so that you can have a plan. I think that's part of it, is, like, being, like--just ask, like, you know, "What options are there for me?" I would also network within your business, right? I'm certain that there's other women at your job--well, let me not say I'm certain. Perhaps there are other--Ade: I was about to be like, "How certain are we?"Zach: "Are you certain?" But there may be other people at your job who have been pregnant and had children and had to navigate, so it's worth, like, networking and asking around as well. So that would be what I'd add, but nah, I think what you said is super spot-on. I agree. Ade: And sort of to pick up on that as well, if there are any employee resource groups at your firm, at your company, for women, I would certainly look into that. I just realized I didn't even, like, finish my train of thought with the whole mentors and et cetera, but also look into what support looks like after you give birth as well.Zach: Oh, that's a good point.Ade: Because again, you're going at this alone, so that means that you're going to have to figure out what childcare looks like, you're going to have to figure out--see, I don't even have a child, so I don't know--Zach: All the things?Ade: All the things. But postpartum care... shoot, I am ill-equipped for this conversation. But, you know, finding out what it means to be both a career woman and mom, that's a whole conversation in and of itself, a whole exploration process, and the more resources, the more conversations, then the more people you have around you who are able to support you in that exploration process, who are able to point you at the resources that you need and who are able to say, "Look, I don't know, but I am going to find out for you." That's the environment that you need--that's the support that you need, and I hope that you're gonna get that, and if you do not, I am hoping that you're able to find a space in which you can be both. And the other thing that I wanted to bring up--I read this post on Fishbowl. This just occurred to me. I read this post on Fishbowl a couple of weeks ago about this senior consultant who had just given birth and her team was already emailing her work to do, and she still has six weeks of leave left.Zach: Mm-mm. [disapprovingly]Ade: Don't ever feel pressured to take time away from your baby for your job, because your job will still be there, and should they ever find reason to fire you--and honestly, if you live in a state that doesn't require reason, then you're SOL anyway--I strongly advocate that you--when you do take time off work, be present entirely and let them figure out, right? No offense, but ABC Corporation will be just fine without you, and you're not gonna get the hours and the days and the weeks after you first give birth back just to just feel like yourself again, to bond with this new human, to breathe. You're not gonna be able to sleep for a little while, per my sister. So just being able to enjoy, step into the fullness of that experience... do not worry about the 60-80 hour weeks that are waiting on you or whatever it is that you left behind in your absence, because everybody else is getting paid for that. Like, they're getting paid to ensure that there is no lapse in the work that goes on, so I wouldn't worry about that.Zach: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point for everybody. I think a lot of times we can think that, like, if WE don't do something the whole world is gonna stop. It's like--it's a big company. Like, even if it's not a big company, you're not the CEO. Like, there's other people around. They get paid to help and be thoughtful and strategic on how to solve a problem. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's gonna be okay. It's navigable. Ade: Listen, just take a break. It's okay to say, "You know what? I'm a human being, and I have a life outside of this, and I'm not particularly interested in splitting my attention or my time with something that's not this. Like, this is the most important thing to me right now. You can keep the job."Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: It's okay to say that.Zach: It is. Okay. Well, Leah, congratulations as well. I apologize. I did not say that in my little initial response, but congratulations from the Living Corporate fam. Yearp.Ade: We should have a Living Corporate onesie made.Zach: Listen. Actually, I think that's a really cute idea. I just question, like, if we're--if we're big enough. But I would like to make one. If we get big enough and we start making, like, baby merch, we have--we have arrived.Ade: Officially made it. Mama, we made it.Zach: We have made it. We making baby merch? Not even just regular people. Baby merch. What? Anyway, one can only dream. The next letter comes from--oh, here we go--Jamal. Oh! ...I'm not hating on you. I'm not hating on Jamal.Ade: Why did you do that? Nope, now we're gonna--now we're gonna have to have a conversation, Zach.Zach: [laughs] It's just like--no, it's just funny, man. It's tough. It's tough out here, like, just the way that, you know, internalized depression is set up. Like, you know, even I see certain names and I'm like, "Oh, okay."Ade: I can't. We're gonna have to unpack that.Zach: We do. We need to talk about it. We need to talk about it in an episode about respectability politics, right? No, I'm just laughing at the name--I'm laughing at the name Jamal because it's just--it's so stereotypically black, and I love--Ade: In the context of the conversation that he's trying to have?Zach: And in the context of the conversation that he's trying to have. It's just funny. It's just all funny to me. Anyway, so look. Jamal, I'm not hating on your name. My name is Zachary. My mom named me that very strategically. I show up very well on resumes.Ade: You should also say your middle name.Zach: Sinclair.Ade: [laughs] Zach: [laughs] So I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum.Ade: I just also want to say that that was the only, like, American name for, like, a very, very long time. Any time I ever thought about "If I ever have children, what would I name them?" That was the only, like--Zach: Zachary?!Ade: No, no, no. Sinclair. That was the only non-[Yoruba?] name that I ever thought of, and it was because of Upton Sinclair. Zach: Sinclair is a dope name though.Ade: It's a very beautiful name. And then somebody was like, "Okay, but then they'll nickname your child Sin, and--"Zach: That's true. Call him Sini.Ade: Even worse. Even worse.Zach: I know. It's just ridiculous.Ade: Thank you so much for ruining this name for me, Sinclair. All right, let's move forward.Zach: Nah, kids are so mean. Anyway, that's another subject for another time. So this letter is from Jamal, subject line: Finding the Right Words. Finding the Right Words. "LC fam, I'm a new hire, and my team is very casual. Like, they use slang and don't even talk--do not talk very proper at all. They use more slang than I do outside of work. Maybe I'm old-school, but I speak fairly properly at work, to the point where I'm noticing I'm alienating my team. They'll say things like, "Hey, loosen up," but I really don't know how--"Ade: [laughs]Zach: "But I don't really know how. I didn't even know it was a problem until I got here. What advice would you give me to help me adjust? Thanks. Jamal." Oh, Jamal.Ade: Jamal. Jamal.Zach: J!Ade: First of all, my apologies... I just jumped right into that. Zach, is it all right if I go first?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I am so sorry. I am not laughing at you, Jamal. I am tickled by the situation that you find yourself in. My apologies. I do not mean to be dismissive in which you find yourself. I am not minimizing your feelings. I just--I simply do find it humorous. OK. So Jamal, I want to know precisely what is said, you know? I don't--I do think that--and we've said this before on this podcast that--and Jamal, I'm assuming you're black 'cause I've never met a white Jamal, but--Zach: If we meet a white Jamal, he's coming on the show. I don't care what he does.Ade: If we meet a white Jamal?Zach: If there is a white Jamal--hey, if you're listening to this and you are white and your name is Jamal, email us and you will be on the show. I have never met a white Jamal. I've met a white Jerome. I've met a white Terrell.Ade: I have actually met a white Jerome. I used to date a white Jerome. Zach: Wow.Ade: That may have been too much information for this podcast. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: No. Oh, no. JJ, do not cut that.Ade: JJ. JJ.Zach: Was he a Kappa?Ade: Do me--oh, my God. We can discuss this offline. All right.Zach: I feel like--I feel like a white Jerome has a code shimmy. Ade: Can we--can we go?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: All right. Anyway, Jamal, again, I am so sorry. We are acting like plumfuls right now. First and foremost, again, thank you for writing in. Secondly, I feel like I need a little bit more context. What did it--what is it that makes you feel like you're alienating your team? Like, it's one thing for your team--I just have so many questions. One, I feel like there's a context necessary, right? If you work in an ad agency, the culture--or in a startup--the culture is not going to be as formal as if you worked in a bank, and that is not to say that you need to change the essence of who you are to fit into the context of your team, but I do think that it makes you more noticeable when you don't fit into the context of your team. Now, that said, there are fully ways that you can be who you are at work, not change an iota of who you are at work--see, you got me using--anyway, not changing the context of who you are, but also making more of an effort to be more accessible to your--to your team members. We've had this conversation before on an old episode where we were saying that people don't trust who they don't know. If you are inaccessible to your team members, it's harder for them to trust you, feel like they know you, go to bat for you in the same way that they would for other members of their team, regardless of how amazing you are. Like, I don't think that that is necessarily fair, because if you are a perfect coworker you just don't pop up at Happy Hours with the other coworkers simply because you don't drink. There's no reason why that should have an effect on your career trajectory. I do also think that there are other ways in which you can make people more comfortable with you without necessarily feeling out of place or like you're faking it. I think that you can--if you are a coffee drinker, you could invite people out for coffee. So they'll walk out for an afternoon coffee with you or coffee, or bring pictures of your family to put up in your workspace, or taking an interest in your coworkers, asking them questions about themselves so that you can listen to them use their slang and having a full conversation with them, because if that is not who you are, I wouldn't fake it. And I don't think you should have to in order to make anybody else comfortable. I do think that there are ways and strategies that you could employ to simply get to know your coworkers so that it's simply a part of who you are, Jamal, that you say, "I would not like to go to breakfast with you," instead of "Nah, I'm straight." You see what I'm saying? Does that make sense, Zach?Zach: It does make sense, and I do--I do think more context is needed, and I recognize, you know, you're not trying to get into all the details or whatever, but some--it's a challenge, especially, like--and I can really relate to this letter. That's why I was also kind of laughing, just because recently I've been getting feedback that I'm too--you know, that basically--not even too formal, but it's just like, "Okay, I'm getting lost in what you're saying, right?" And so what I have to challenge and what I have to question is how much of this is really me needing to adjust how I speak, because I'm almost 30 years old, and up 'til this point in my life I've been told that I'm a good communicator. I think that's one of the--one of my strengths. So how much of this is things I need to change? How much of this is, like, just personal style? You know, like, maybe what you're not used to? And then how much of this is just, like, you just maybe not being comfortable--like, maybe something about me makes you uncomfortable and there's, like, some unconscious biases there, right? Like, those are all--those are all things that are real, and, you know, when I think about--when I think about being at work and someone telling you to loosen up, it's like, okay, well, if you're communicating and kind of getting the message across, or if, you know, you're just saying what it is and they're still not really hearing you, then talking to someone you trust, right, outside of that team and being like, "Hey, look. Here's the feedback I've gotten. This is what I've been trying to do." You know, "What do you think?" Right? Like, getting some outside feedback I think is gonna be really important, because what you don't want to do is feel like you're having to--I think, like, to Ade's point, like, change your entire self. Like, you're trying to, like, rebuild yourself. Like, you're enough. Like, I imagine that you know how to put words together, so it might just be about making, like, some small tweaks and adjustments, but at the same time I think kind of trusting your gut as well and knowing who you are and then just kind of leaning into that. I think--the other point Ade made which I really like is, like, getting to know people and just kind of, like, building those relationships and then letting them see you, as comfortable as you are let them see you, but yeah. Like, that's what I would do, and then that way when they talk to you and you say, "Yes, I'd rather not," they don't go, "Oh, here you go again." Or maybe they do, but they've seen you, and they've seen you be consistent, so they know you're not putting on some type of, you know, air. That's my take.Ade: Right, and I do think that it's important that you separate who you are at work from who you are in general, and it's okay to not--it's okay to not want there to be an overlap. That's not to say that you have to hide yourself or lie or be unfriendly, and again, that's part of where this context that we're asking for comes in, because it's difficult to tell from this--from this letter whether the issue is that the coworkers don't feel as though they know you and that it comes out in them saying that you need to loosen up or that you are too straight-laced or if the issue is that you're not a culture fit for whatever reason. And I hate that phrase, "culture fit," because it's been used so frequently to exclude people of color, but again, some context is needed here, Jamal. I hope this conversation that we had helped, and if it did not, if you'd like to write in to further explain what's going on, we would love to have you, would love to hear some more from you, and if not, we hope that you get more comfortable, whether it is at this job or a next one. It's okay to be like, "You know what? I'm gonna take me and my suit and tie onto somewhere where we're respected." I think I'm perpetuating that "Break up with him."Zach: You are, you are. Ade: 'Cause I think I've said that about every single letter so far.Zach: You have, and I'm like, "Okay, Ade." I mean, everybody's not gonna just pack up and leave their job. I mean, you know, people do though. People leave. People find new jobs. I don't think this is what he's talking--I don't feel like this is the answer on this one though.Ade: No, I don't--I don't think that it is either. I am saying that it's OK if you feel like you don't want to and you want to kind of just pick up your things and go. The reason I say that is largely because you're a new hire, so I feel as though if they're trying to make you comfortable, singling you out is not the way to do that. And that may not be what they're doing. I fully admit that this letter's a little light on the details, et cetera. I'm just trying to address the full breadth of the experience that Jamal might be having. Since you're a new hire, it might be that they're trying to explain to you what the culture is without necessarily being the most obvious about it, because I know for a fact that I've, like--I've walked into a job in a full suit and the director was wearing jeans.Zach: Yeah, that happened to me recently. Like, I came to work and I was wearing, like, slacks and a blazer, and he was like, "Don't wear those slacks again." Like, it was super casual, you know what I'm saying? It was funny. And I got mad love for him too. He's funny. He's a nice guy. It was just super funny. And I wore a blazer. He wasn't super happy about the blazer, but the blazer has grown on him. I think he was like, "You have to take the slacks off." He was like, "I'ma kind of give you a little bit of a time about the blazer for a couple weeks, and then I'ma let you, but you gotta wear jeans." And so I got some--you know, I got some designer jeans. Anyway. We're on a tangent now, but anyway, I feel you. I feel you.Ade: Yeah, so I'm really honestly just trying to address the entire range of experience that might be going on here. It's entirely possible that they're wilin' and they need to relax and let you be who you are. It's entirely possible that they are trying to say, "Hey, you know what, a three-piece suit is not necessarily the way to go here," and they might also be saying that you're not a culture fit for whatever other reason. Either way, I would like for Jamal to feel comfortable in owning his experiences and in saying that, "Hey, I'm cool with this," or "Hey, I'm not cool with this," and either way, your life is yours, your career is yours, and you are able to make whatever decision you feel is necessary for your own growth and comfort.Zach: That's real. That's real. I gotta snap on that.Ade: Thank you, friend.Zach: You're welcome. You know, something interesting... we're saying these people's real names, and I wonder... should we not? Ade: Hm. You know what?Zach: We might need to do this whole thing over. I don't know.Ade: I feel like if they had wanted us to, like, bleep their names out or give them different names they'd have said so, but if you do write in and you prefer--and there are a bunch of Jamals out in the universe, so I don't--I don't expect--Zach: There's a lot of Jamals.Ade: Right? So if you do write in and you'd prefer that we do not say your actual names or the names with which you sign these letters--because these are just the names that signed the letters, so they may have given us fake names in the first place. Plot twist.Zach: That's real.Ade: But if you do prefer that we don't say your names, please let us know that, and we will do our best to find a repository of fake names to substitute.Zach: There we go. I like that. I like that cleanup. Thank you, Ade. It'd be so funny. What if, like, someone gave a fake name, we go, "You know, we don't really--" You know, "We're not gonna say this name," and then we give a fake name and the fake name is their actual name. Whoa. Ade: The universe really just needed you to say this with your chest then, because the odds of that--Zach: That's tough. That's tough tough.Ade: If you write in here, please note that I'm giving all of you [Yoruba?] names.Zach: Straight up. Okay, so--all Yoruba names, really?Ade: All of them.Zach: I like that.Ade: I mean, I might throw in an [?] name in there or an [?] name, but [?].Zach: Like Oshioke. That'd be dope. Ade: What? Oh, we're gonna have to coach you too.Zach: [laughs] I actually know an Oshioke. That's why that's so funny to me. Goodness gracious.Ade: It was just the way that you pronounced it. Zach: I know. No, I gotta do better. I need to grow. There's some opportunities for growth there.Ade: There are way too many Africans in your life for this to still be--Zach: There are so many. There are so many Africans. Shout-out to all my real Africans out there, but yeah. Okay. Well, look here. It's been--we got about 30 minutes? Okay, not doing too bad. Look, that's two listener letters. I feel like let's go ahead, let's do a Favorite Thing, you know what I'm saying, and then let's get on up out of here. How does that sound?Ade: All right, that sounds good.Zach: All right. What's your Favorite Thing? 'Cause I do have one.Ade: Okay, then you go ahead.Zach: All right, cool. So my Favorite Thing is actually this video, this music video, by this artist named Russ.Ade: [sighs] All right, and we're done. Thank you for listening.Zach: Oh, no. You don't like the video?Ade: I'm just being a hater. Go ahead.Zach: Oh, okay. I was about to say, this video was fire. So I opened up the video, 'cause I love music. For those who don't know, like, my background, before I changed my major, was music, and so I love music. Like, I'm really passionate about it, right? And so I'll listen to--I'll listen to really any genre. So anyway, I'm on YouTube like billions of others on this planet, and I open up a video and there's, like, this beautiful, I mean beautiful black woman, like, very, very dark, very dark-skinned, and I was like, "Man, this is incredible." And, like, the lighting was great, 'cause I'm also--like, I'm also really into photography and videography, so I'm looking at the lighting, I'm looking at the way--I'm just looking at, like, everything. Like, the color pallette. I'm like, "Wow, these are the prettiest black people." Like, on a--for this to be just a regular music video. This isn't, like, Black Panther. This is, like, just a music video. I was like, "Wow, the color--the lighting on the skin is so nice." So anyway, then the music starts playing, and then it's like--you know, it's an African song. Like, it's kind of African style. You help me, Ade, but it's--Ade: I'm gonna let you flounder for a few seconds.Zach: No, it's fire though. So anyway, then this random dude--I guess his name is Russ, I don't really know, so young people, help me out--this random dude, like, petite white man with very long hair is in, like, this really--Ade: Did you just call this grown man petite?Zach: I mean, he's like--he's only, like, 5'1". It doesn't matter. He's like--and he looks very out of place. He's wearing, like, a jersey with, like, baggy jeans, and, like, everybody else around him is, like, Nigerian or Cameroonian or, like, they are clearly, like, African, right? And they're all dancing, and, like, they look great, and he looks, like, super bummy, and the juxtaposition was really interesting, but it was a beautiful song.Ade: You just called this man bummy. You called this man bummy on his own music video? You called him petite and bummy on--are you sure this is your Favorite Thing?Zach: Everybody looks super--everybody looks so regal, but I like the fact that basically--to me, what I got from that was he was being himself, right? Like, I'm being myself. I'm chillin'. He also had, like, some--he also had some Nigerian cuisine references in his song, talking about "mix the jollof with the suya." I said, "Whaaat?" It was crazy. And so I just really enjoyed the video. I really liked the fact that you have, like, this really--apparently after I did some research on the Wikipedias--fairly [?]--on the Wikipedias. He's very popular, and, like, he really, like, centered--he centered black identity and experience in the song. And then the guy who sang with him, Davido... Davido? How do you say his name, Ade? Ade: I'm not doing this with you.Zach: He is cold! He snapped on this song. I said, "Yo, this is a fire song!" And so I sent it to Ade. I was like, "Yo, this is my Favorite Thing." Like, "The next time we talk about Favorite Things, I'm bringing this up." Yo, I loved the video.Ade: Do you know I completely forgot about that? I had to go, but, like, I'm literally watching the video right now as you talk about it. I had to go back to the text to go see what this is. I still can't believe you called this grown man petite, but yeah, he does look a little bit... slight.Zach: Listen, man. If the extra small fits. Like, I'm not trying to be mean. There's nothing wrong with being petite. You can--you can [?]--Ade: You are 6'3". Everybody is smaller than you.Zach: I'm 6'2", first of all. But yeah, I think--I wish I was 6'3". Man, that'd be great. I'm, like, 6'1" 1/2, almost 6'2". If I was, like, 6'3", what? If I was 6'3" with a beard--that's gonna be my next Favorite Thing, beards.Ade: There, so now you're only, like, 9 inches taller than me instead of 12. Great.Zach: There you go. But no, so why are you--why are you hating on the video? Do you not like the video?Ade: I'm not hating on the video actually. I just hadn't seen it, but I had heard a bunch of people, like, talking about it and how amazing it was, but I haven't seen it yet, so I'm just kind of like, "Ugh, God, I don't have anything to add to this conversation." And then you started the conversation about this, calling the man petite, and I had to go look.Zach: It got your attention though, right? See? There you go. Ade: I cannot. Okay.Zach: But what do you think? So you're looking at it. Like, well, how do you--is it not dope or is it not dope? Ade: Well, I haven't actually heard the song accompanying it, but yeah, it looks like a ton of fun.Zach: And don't the people look beautiful?Ade: I mean, yeah, of course. Wait, I think I just saw, like, a gay man in this.Zach: I'm saying. See? No, they're doing it. No, it's dope. Ade: Okay. All right, anyway, let's focus. All right.Zach: So that's my Favorite Thing. So what's your Favorite Thing?Ade: My Favorite Thing? So my Favorite Thing this week is a website called egghead.io. I've been struggling with--actually, two Favorite Things, 'cause, you know, y'all know how I am. Egghead.io is a website that has a bunch of lessons and tutorials for people who are learning programming, and they are, like, super short videos, which is great, because if you have a shrot attention span like I do, there's nothing in the world worse than signing up for sitting down for a 2-hour-long tutorial. It is so painful. And the concepts are [?] and robust, and you often get to, like, code along, so it's fun, for me at least. And then the other thing, my other Favorite Thing, it's the React training course. So I didn't tweet very often about it, but I went to--early last week I got the opportunity to go to a React training. It was on hooks specifically, but they essentially took us through the basics of React all the way through this new concept called hooks which uses [?] context and [?] effect, et cetera, which probably makes no sense to you right now, but I only got to go because I emailed the team behind React training and I just asked them. I was like, "I don't have $1,000 to drop on training, but I'd really like to come," and they said, "Cool, come on." And it's one of the things that I love the most about tech and tech spaces. It's that if you are--if you ask, more often than not somebody will try to find a way to make sure that you can get it. At least the spaces and the people that I have met have been super generous and awesome with their time and are willing to help you learn and help you succeed, and so for people to just go out of their way to support you simply because you say, "Hey, I'm a learner, and I would like the opportunity to attend this training. What can you do for me?" And they go, "Okay. Girl, come on over." It felt really good, and the training was amazing, and I am now using it to build a couple of apps with my friends. So I am--yeah, I'm super thankful for the tech community and thankful in particular for Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson. His name was really Michael Jackson. And Danny [?] over at React training. Yeah, love those guys.Zach: You said--you said his name is Michael Jackson?Ade: It's really Michael Jackson.Zach: Does that not make you nervous? 'Cause he might be so... BAD at his job?Ade: All right. Well, guys. You just had--you just had to get one in. Okay. All right.Zach: [laughing]Ade: Y'all, it was so awesome. Thank you for listening.Zach: Oh, you're not even gonna do your second favorite thing? You're just gonna--Ade: That was my second Favorite Thing, and my first thing was egghead.io.Zach: Oh, right. You just weaved into the next one. I'm sorry. You're right. Go ahead.Ade: You were so focused on your dad puns that you weren't even paying attention to me.Zach: I was paying attention to you. Relax.Ade: You were not practicing your active listening skills, Zachary.Zach: Man. I had some other ones I was gonna say, but I was like, "Dang, nah." 'Cause I don't wanna--you know what I'm saying? I ain't trying to mess the bag up, the future bag, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, "Eh, let me go ahead and not have a problematic joke."Ade: Your dad joke was amazing actually. Thank you.Zach: No, I believe it. I believe it. Okay, okay, okay. I'm sorry. You were wrapping it up. Okay.Ade: Yeah, caught Michael Jackson while he was on tour for once. All right, no, that was even worse. That was even worse than anything you came up with. Okay. Anyway, that's it for us today, guys. Thank you for joining us. Actually, I'm gonna stop saying guys. It's not very inclusive.Zach: I be trying to say. I'm trying to tell you. We need to relax on all these, you know what I'm saying, gender-limiting terms.Ade: You're right. Thanks for joining us, y'all. Next time we will see you--when's the next time we're gonna drop an episode, Zach? Do you know?Zach: I mean, next Friday. Ade: Word.Zach: We drop an episode every week, so.Ade: I've been using a contextual--like, weekly contextual language in this episode, 'cause I said last week, and I didn't know if it was actually gonna be last week by the time they hear this. Anyway, y'all, we're Living Corporate everywhere. We are on your LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. Wherever you be at we be at, so come check us out. If you would like for us to read one of your letters, please send us an email at our gmail. It's livingcorporatepod--podcast? Oh, gosh.Zach: Yo. It is livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us on Twitter and Instagram. You don't know--we're, like, 71 episodes in--or 72, I don't know when this one's gonna drop--you're talking about... goodness gracious. Yes, it's livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com.Ade: I had "livingcorporatepod" on--Zach: You probably--what you probably did, you was probably thinking about our Twitter, @LivingCorp_Pod.Ade: Yes, that's the one. Uh-huh. I just--I'm not a terrible person. I'm just tired today, y'all. All right. We are on the world wide web at www.living-corporate.com. I got that one right that time.Zach: You did. Good job.Ade: Pats on the back, pats on the back. [laughs] Until next time, it's been Ade.Zach: It's been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

On today's episode of the Living Corporate podcast, Zach and Ade read and respond to two listener letters. They provide their unique perspectives and offer up helpful advice on how to best advocate for yourself while encouraging others to do the same.Connect with us on our website!https://www.living-corporate.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you know what? You're listening to Living Corporate, and, you know, today--Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp. And today--[both laughing] we have listener letters. So for those who don't know, we encourage, at the end of every episode, to send us some listener letters. You can submit them through Instagram DMs, through Twitter DMs, through our email, through our website Contact Us section. Just hit us up. Ask us things and we will provide our perspective. We are not certified coaches. We are just--Ade: Or psychologists.Zach: Or psychologists.Ade: Or counselors.Zach: Or counselors.Ade: Let's just put all of our disclaimers out there. All of this is just from our perspectives, and we love y'all, we care about you, and we want to make sure that you succeed. However, you know, this is not a binding contract. Cool. Let's move forward.Zach: Yep, that's right. We're just two black folks out here trying to help other people of color, you know what I'm saying? That's all we're trying to do. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna read a couple of these listener letters. We'll talk about 'em, wax poetic, and then we'll wrap it up. Ade, what else do you think we need to add to this? Ade: Sit back, relax, grab a glass of water if you're listening, and sip with us. Take a sip. Oh, and also, just side-note - this is a thing that my mother has been making me do recently - drink some honey lemon ginger tea or honey ginger lemon or ginger lemon honey tea, whatever combination works for you, to just, like, soothe your throat while you listen.Zach: You got the--you got the recipe? Or--Ade: I mean, I'm not gonna be responsible for my mother's recipe getting out there. Look on the Internet. There's a whole bunch of different recipes. Zach: Okay, so just Google it basically. So they won't be drinking your mom's recipe, but that combination of tea would be good. Okay, I just wanted to make sure we [?]. All right, cool. Okay. Well, look, our first listener net--listener letter--Ade: Listener netter.Zach: Listener netter, which is a new type of listener letter, is coming from Raquel, and the subject is--Ade: Hi, Raquel.Zach: What's going on, Raquel? Also your phone's making noises in the background. Ade: Wasn't me.Zach: Huh?Ade: Wasn't me.Zach: Wasn't you? Was it me? Might have been me.Ade: Probably. Zach: No. Oh, it probably was me.Ade: It was totally you.Zach: Yep, it was.Ade: Narrator: It was actually me.Zach: My bad. [?] [laughs] First listener letter is coming from Raquel. Hi, Raquel. Subject line is "I need a promotion." Here we go. "Hey, guys. End-of-the-year performance reviews are coming up, and I'm really anxious about getting promoted. I've had some serious wins this year and positive feedback from my boss, and I've been bringing up my desire to get promoted. I'm not sure if it's enough though. Performance reviews start in about six weeks. What advice would you give in my final stretch? Thanks." Hm.Ade: Do you want to start, or should I go?Zach: You go.Ade: Okay. First of all, Raquel, thank you for writing in. This is a pretty big one. I think everyone in general is invested in the course of their careers, and feeling as though your review is coming up and you're not quite sure that you can advocate for yourself is a huge deal. So that said, I will give you the advice that my senior, the senior associate on my project, gave me when I first started. It was that you write down all of your wins. Like, in the next few weeks, start taking stock of all of the things that you did really well, all of the pats on the back you got, all of the shout-outs, all of the wins, and then also write down all of the not-so-great situations. All of the sit-down conversations that you had to have, all of the after-action items that you had to take down, so that you have all of the knowledge necessary to advocate for yourself once it's time for those reviews, because it's very, very easy for you to personally recall all of the times that you didn't do so well more than the times when you killed it, like you had a three-hour turnaround time for some huge deliverable or you owned that client meeting and all of the clients left looking at you like you were the second coming of the messiah. Just really take stock of all of the amazing things that you did, because 1. it makes you more confident in these conversations, 'cause you can walk into those meetings like, "Yeah, I am that person." Of course the term I'm using here is not "person," but whatever. But also it's very, very difficult for managers to miss the million, million, million things that you did that were amazing because they're overseeing a whole bunch of people, and so it's easy for some of your big wins to fall between the cracks, and that big win falling between the cracks can mean the difference between a $2,000 bonus and a $10,000 bonus. Maybe not that significant, but you get what I'm saying. What do you think, Zach?Zach: Yeah. So, you know, my experience in getting promoted is all about having more than just one advocate in those rooms, right? So one, to your--everything you said I 100% agree. You have to make sure that you're writing down and that you make it easy for people to advocate for you, and the way that you do that is what you just said. So writing down your wins, writing down your growth, like, documenting those things in something that is easy to read, like a one-pager or a couple of PowerPoint slides that you can quickly just send out and folks can, you know, review and speak to or reference. That's gonna make it easy. And then also, you know, you used the language "my final stretch." It's really important--and, like, again, recognizing where you are, but any time you're thinking about getting promoted or you know that you're looking to get promoted or you're looking for a huge raise, you're looking for--you're looking to get something out of the--you're looking to really progress, you want to--really want to treat your entire performance almost like a campaign run, right? So, like, mapping it out, thinking about who are the folks that you want to connect with, what are the things that you want to accomplish, and then like we've been saying, making sure that you document those things and that you equip the people who you want to be your promoters, your advocates in those rooms, in those spaces, give them plenty of heads-up, right? So you said you have six weeks. I would, like, look across, think about what you've done this past year, think about the people that you've worked with and say, "Hey, I'm looking to get promoted this year. This is my goal." And, like, don't be afraid, right? It's a goal, and ask, "Would you be willing to support me?" If so, if they say yes--depending on how you want to frame it, "If so, would you please review this here?" Or "Would you be willing to write something for me?" Right? So every company has something different. Some companies have kind of, like, in-time reviews. Other people have, like, informal kind of, like, write-ups and positive notes. Other people--like, there's various things, right, that you can--there are various ways you can document, but it's about gathering those points of evidence, and then that way when it's time for your review and people are looking for your--you're basically building a case for yourself, there's a variety of things people can pull from. That's really important. So, like, you said you have six weeks. I would really, like, kind of put your nose to the grindstone, reach out to the people that you know that you've had a positive impact on, have a conversation with them, make it easy for them to advocate for you, and then, again, kind of depending on who it is--if you know who's gonna be the person who's gonna, like, explicitly gonna be talking about, "Hey, this is why this person should get promoted," have a conversation with them as well. Let them know what you're doing. Give them all of that evidence, and then make sure that y'all have a conversation about what it looks like for you to be properly spoken about and advocated for. Ade: That's not to say that this process is easy, especially, Raquel, if you are feminine-of-center, it's not--you're not often taught how to advocate for yourself and how to really push for what you want. It's something that I'm personally learning how to do, and I think that there's no better place to do that than at work, because it's work, so yes, it bleeds into the rest of your life and et cetera, et cetera, but it's really just a microcosm of the greater world around you, and what it means to advocate at work is also what it means to advocate for yourself in your personal lives, in your friendships, in your relationships, and so treat this as a proving ground for--it's not just about work here, right? I would treat this as, "Okay, if I'm able to really push for what I want here, whether or not I get it"--and yes, you will, girl--"Whether or not I get it, I know that I've had the experience of what it means to advocate for myself period, regardless of where I go." So once you get this one out of the way, every successive conversation that you have that might be difficult, that might feel uncomfortable, cannot possibly be more difficult than the very first one. So either way, we got your back. Thank you for writing in.Zach: Yerp. Ade: Did you have anything else you wanted to say, Zach, before I cut this entire conversation off?Zach: Nope.Ade: [laughing] I realize that that's what I did, my bad.Zach: No, it's good. I feel like my contribution was the "yerp." I'm good.Ade: [laughs] I can't stand you.Zach: [laughs] Cool. Yeah, so all--godspeed to Raquel. Definitely excited for you. Hopefully you can give us an update and let us know how it goes.Ade: Right. Drinks on you next time around.Zach: Drinks on you next time, 'cause you ballin'. Maybe one day, you know what I'm saying, we can all work together, you know what I'm saying?Ade: Big ballin', shot callin'.Zach: Right. Right, right. So cool, cool, cool. We have another one here.Ade: Yerp.Zach: Ade, you want to take this one?Ade: Most definitely. All right, so this one, the subject says "GET ME OUT OF HERE!" In caps, so I really had to give it the respect that it was due. So Xavier writes in saying, "Hey, y'all. I am so close to just walking out of work and never coming back it's not even funny." Oh, my. "I seriously need a mental heatlh break, just go on a trip and never come back. JK." He really said that. "JK, I come back. My problem is that even though we have "unlimited PTO" at work, it feels like we're discouraged from taking PTO." Hm. "My co-worker went on a trip a few months back, and she's had to deal with jokes about her work ethic." What?! "She's been made to work really hectic schedules and just overall painted like less of a team player. I don't want to deal with this while at my job. I can't keep living like this. Please help. Frustrated and about to burn out, Xavier." [exhales] Ow.Zach: Oh, man. Xavier.Ade: You want to get started with this one, Zach?Zach: X. Yes. [laughs] Ade: Professor X.Zach: X! Ah, X. Nah, I mean, I've definitely been there, and I feel like I sadly--like, I'm closer to being there than other places, so this really resonates with me. It's tough when you don't feel like you can--you can take off work, right? But at the same time, I mean, when you start getting to the point where it's like, "Man, I'm about to quit," or "Man, I just gotta get up out of here," then I think that's when it comes to making sure that you have, like, really transparent conversations, right, with your boss, like, "Hey, I recognize we're in a really busy time, I recognize what's going on. I am--I am burnt out. I am exhausted. I am--" Just be honest, right? There's ways to phrase it in a way that does not come across like you're whining or that you're being fragile or dramatic, and these are insecurities that I deal with all of the time, 'cause, like, I'm always trying not to be the diva. And I'll say that. I'll be like, "I'm not trying to be a diva. I apologize for bringing this up." Like, there have been things that I've had to raise at work in my career that were perfectly right to raise, but I don't like being the center of that attention, right? But you gotta think about this. Xavier, he's saying--he's saying that he's, like, thinking about not coming back, and he says JK, but, I mean, like, he's not really--he's not really kidding. Like, he wrote this, right? Like, he took the time, wrote it, and sent it, so there's a certain level of seriousness to this. So I would say have a conversation with your boss, be transparent about where you're--why you're feeling this way, and then move forward and take the time off, right? If your job provides you unlimited PTO, and you have a--and you're about to burn out, then take it. I think the only thing is that make sure that whatever work that you need to get done or that you won't be tackling during that time, make sure that you're working with your boss, with your team, with whoever to make sure that those things are covered, right? That's the challenge. So, like, with your co-worker who they were saying, like, people question their work ethic and everything, it's like, some of that is cultural. Like, that might just be, like, just the culture of that space, but also if you're really proactive and you say, "Hey, look, for the next three days I'm gonna be off, 'cause I need to recharge, and these are the things that are gonna be happening in these three days." And again, like, not--I would not give them a day heads-up. I would tell them, like, you know, a couple weeks in advance and say, "Hey, look, these are the tasks. Can--who--" Like, make it very simple. Like, "Hey, these are the things that need to get done. This is the way that you're gonna have get these things done," and that way people can just kind of take it, drive it, and then close it. That way when you come back you're not staring down the barrel of a bunch of work that didn't get done. Your team isn't having to kind of pick up the--isn't having to, like, deal with the impacts of stuff, just the dependencies and anything like that that you--the things that they were depending on you for. You're able just to--you're able to kind of, like, have a clean transition, but if you do that and you're transparent with your supervisor, hey, man, you gotta take the time off and take care of yourself. Ade, what do you think?Ade: Agreed. I think my very first point was that succession plan that you were talking about earlier, creating just an Excel spreadsheet and listening the discrete tasks that are yours, that you own, and who is equipped on your team to deal with them, and then having a come-to-Jesus moment with your--with your boss, because I think of it as a sign of poor management that you would even have to justify you leaving and taking a mental health break. The reason I say that is because if you're experiencing this, like, heavy workload and this hectic schedule and you feel like you're about to burn out, then somebody has noticed. Somebody has noticed. I can say from my own personal experience, like, when it's incredibly hectic at work, my director comes up and is like, "All right, we're taking everybody. Stop what you're doing. We're going for a coffee break. We're just gonna walk and go outside and experience the sunshine on our faces," or my lead goes, "Okay, everyone has to leave at 6:00 p.m. tonight. Nobody needs to be in this building." Like, they're being proactive about caring for you as a person as much as they care for you as a co-worker or as a resource at work, because everybody knows that you are less valuable to them as an institution if you're honestly not on top of your game, and there's no way that you can be on top of your game when you are a ball of nerves and anxiety. That's one. Two, I am genuinely concerned, actually, about your co-worker having to deal with being treated poorly. So it's one thing to leave your team in the lurch and, you know, not have adequate support for all of your--all of the times in your workstream, or your co-workers feeling like you left them holding the bag on several items, but this sounds like she was just punished for--and it might just be your own current perspective based off of how you're feeling currently--but it sounds like she's being punished for having the audacity to leave. To, like, just go and take a mental health break, and I would look into--I know you say you love your job, but I would look into alternate employment, simply because--Zach: [laughs]Ade: I am so serious.Zach: [laughing] I know. I know you're not joking.Ade: I am so serious, because the same way that they find it comfortable to alienate someone just for doing what they say to do--like, a lot of these companies will go, "Yeah, we absolutely--we give you unlimited PTO because we care about you and we want to make sure that you're okay and your life continues, just because--" Yada yada yada yada yada yada. Okay, whatever, but if the truth of the matter is that when you do in fact take this time off and when you do in fact take advantage of all of the perks associated with your job you get treated a type of way for it, that doesn't sit well with me personally. It feels like you're being set up, and again, this may not be the truth of the matter. I'm just reading, inferring from what I see here, but it does feel like, or it does sound like, there is no winning, that you are either going to be working your butt off until you have, like, a sincere breakdown, or you take breaks when and forever long you need them and you're punished for it, and that just in general doesn't sit well with me personally. That seems like a bad practice. It seems retaliatory, that you would take a break and then be given all of these hectic schedules upon your arrival. So yeah, I think in general I advocate that you come up to your boss with full honesty, like Zach said, and a succession plan, and by succession plan I mean literally take every single thing that you do over the course of a week and list them, and also list the people who are able to take on those tasks, 'cause you generally--I don't know about everywhere else, but I know that I don't work in a complete silo so that if I ever have to take a break from work, there are people who know and understand enough of what I do that they're able to take--to pick up the slack in my absence, and it's just--for those of you out there who own your own companies or are senior management in companies, it is such a toxic work culture to create to say that people aren't able to take breaks when they need to, that people are punished for just living their lives. Like, people's lives don't start and end at work, and it's unfair and it's toxic and it's abusive to decide that your employee's whole world should revolve around work, and when it doesn't you punish them for it? That's jacked up.Zach: Nah, I agree, and I was laughing about you saying, you know, "I would really advise you to seek somewhere else to work," 'cause it kind of reminds me of The Read where people will be like, "Dump him." Ade: Absolutely.Zach: "Dump him" is, like, the main thing they'll say.Ade: But also, if you've ever--if you notice, like, people who write into The Read--and this is a complete sidebar, but I have felt this on my spirit for a while--people who write into The Read or the Relationships subreddit generally are, like, at the end of their rope. People don't just go seek advice from strangers for funsies. They're like, "Okay, I really can't talk to anybody else in my life about this. I need some kind of help," and it's usually just, like, a wild situation, and everybody needs to, like, scream at them, "Please leave. Please."Zach: No, that's 100%. You're not wrong. It's just funny, but ultimately, because of the capitalist society that we live in, right, like, life is becoming increasingly about work. There's an unspoken but ever increasing expectation that you're just gonna work, and work and work and work and work, your mental, physical, emotional, spiritual wellness be damned, right?Ade: Right, and you are validated only through your work, and I am here to tell you that that is not it, friends. That's not the truth of the matter. It doesn't have to be the truth of the matter. Please take breaks.Zach: Yeah. No, no doubt. So Xavier, I definitely hope that this helps. I pray that you don't burn yourself out, give yourself the break, and it's crazy because--what's really interesting rather is if you don't give yourself the break, your body will give itself a break eventually, right? Like, you'll pass out, you'll get sick, and, like, you know, that vacation, like, you'll get a different type of vacation. So make sure you--just make sure you take care of yourself.Ade: There are no beaches in hospital beds. I'll tell you that right now.Zach: That's true. [laughs] Oh, goodness. Okay. Well, cool. So we have--you know, we have a few. We try to do two or three listener letters, you know, per each of these episodes. We're not trying to inundate y'all, but we do have more, so we'll be back with more listener letters in another episode.Ade: Yep, and thank you to everyone who wrote in. We hoped this helped. Again, please seek out the advice or help of people who are even more professionaler than we are.Zach: Yes, professionaler. Who are betterer than us.Ade: Who are betterer at us than this, who are able to physically be there for you in a way that we may not be able to. We love y'all. Stay safe. Stay lifted. You have anything else you want to add, Zach? Do you have, like, a Favorite Things? I know I sprung this one on you, but you sprung it on me the--well, a few weeks ago, so.Zach: Nope, nope, fair enough. So my Favorite Thing this week--I do have a Favorite Thing, so that's gonna be crazy socks. So crazy socks are--and when I say crazy socks, I really just mean, like, socks with unique designs. So socks with unique designs, like, they've been kind of, like, in style, like, they've been normalized now, but I still really enjoy them. So I'm not gonna say the website I procure my socks from, but I've been really excited 'cause I recently just got some socks that are, like, pink with, like, little black and white puppy dogs on 'em.Ade: [scoffs] That sounds really cute actually. I was gonna make fun of you, but...Zach: Aw, look at you.Ade: I mean, I'm still gonna make fun of you, but they still sound cute.Zach: Okay. Well, I appreciate that. I respect that. So then I got some, like, lime green ones with, like, some red t-rexes on 'em, but they're, like, cartoony kind of t-rexes. So I love socks. I think it's an easy way to show a little bit of style. People laugh--so I know on my current project people laugh because--like, I'm the only person on the project that wears a blazer, but, like, from a style perspective I think blazers are cool, and so I'm gonna rock a blazer. Like, no doubt, and so--and I also have, like, a little pocket square, and then I have my crazy socks. And it's not like I'm wearing, like, high--what's the word, high-waters? I'm not flooding, so it's not like you're gonna just see my socks, but, like, if people go, "Hey, like, what's the drip looking like?" I'ma be like, "Ayo." I'll pull up the pant leg one time and let you know, like, it's dripping. I'm dripping.Ade: "What's the drip looking like."Zach: [laughs] When my boss--if my boss ever walks up and he says, "Hey, Zach, what's the drip looking like?" I'll be like--Ade: Why in the world--see...Zach: No one ever--no one ever at my job would ever say "What's the drip looking like?" No one would say that.Ade: Yeah, I just--I need--anybody from Zach's job, if y'all are listening to this, I encourage y'all to write in and please tell me the accuracy of this man's statements, not because I think this man is lying, but, like, I just want a first-hand account of his dad jokes at work.Zach: But I have taught my--I have taught my supervisor the concept of drip, and it's funny, like--Ade: On that note, we're gonna roll out of here. That's gonna be--that's gonna be it for us on today. Zach: [laughs] Oh, you're not gonna--you don't have a Favorite Thing?Ade: [whispering] Damn, I really thought I was gonna escape.Zach: [laughs] What's your Favorite Thing?Ade: So my Favorite Thing currently is Victory Lap by Nipsey Hussle. If you've heard of Nipsey Hussle--or if you haven't, Nipsey Hussle was a rapper and an entrepreneur who was murdered recently, and because it was essentially his final project--I don't know if there's anything in his vault that his family will eventually decide to release--it really was a spectacular album. It was nominated for Grammy of the Year, I think. If I recall correctly. If not, then whoops, my bad. But yeah, my Favorite Thing. I haven't been able to stop listening to it, and I encourage you all, if you are a fan of rap, of hip-hop, of storytelling in general, even if it's not a medium you've ever enjoyed, it's a worthwhile album to listen to just because it's such an incredible story. That's it. That's all I got.Zach: That's dope. Well, cool. I guess we're gonna get up on out of here. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast.Ade: Yeah, thanks for listening.Zach: Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate or Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Ade's already talked to you about submitting listener letters, but I'm just gonna say it one more time. If you want to submit a listener letter, make sure you get at us at Instagram DMs, Twitter DMs, our email, livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com.Ade: We're also on Al Gore's Internet at living-corporate.com, because Australia refuses to let us be great.Zach: That's true, but we're also at livingcorporate.co with no dash. We own all of the domains really except for livingcorporate.com. We have livingcorporate.net, .org, you know what I'm saying? We have 'em all. We just don't have livingcorporate.com.Ade: Which is wild.Zach: Which is wild. We have everything else but that. Anyway, appreciate y'all. We'll talk to you all soon. This has been Zach.Ade: And this has been Ade.Both: Peace.

On today's show, Zach and Ade discuss and expand on last week's D&I episode featuring Chris Moreland. They relate some interesting statistics and share a list of five important things to know to actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy.Connect with us on IG, Twitter, and Facebook!https://www.instagram.com/livingcorporate/https://twitter.com/LivingCorp_Podhttps://www.facebook.com/livingcorporatepodcastCheck out our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: Oh, man. What's going on, y'all? It is Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: Sho are.Zach: [laughs] Yes, they are. Now, listen. It's funny. You know, we've been around for over a year, and--[both laugh] we've yet to explicitly talk about diversity and inclusion. I mean, our podcast is about--essentially about diversity and inclusion, right? But we've yet to talk about it, like, explicitly on this podcast, like, as a subject, and I find that kind of--kind of weird.Ade: Super weird. Super odd.Zach: Okay. Yeah, it's kind of odd. I mean, you would think it's kind of low-hanging fruit. It's, like, right there, you know? You know, we start off with these concepts and, you know, every-man topics, and we didn't really, like, go straight at it, you know? I don't know why we are just now getting into this. I don't know. Anyway, diversity and inclusion. Ade, what is--what is diversity and inclusion? Like, when we use the words "diversity and inclusion," like, what do we typically think of? Like, what are we--what are we talking about?Ade: We're talking about an actual effort by an organization, big or small, to ensure that their workplace, their groups, their team members, are representative of the world at large, that their spaces are not these homogeneous microcosms, and that they are really and truly including everybody in their missions. I think that would be my personal definition of diversity and inclusion.Zach: Well, you know, it's fire because you said homogeneous and microcosms back to back.Ade: Bloop. Get at me.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] No, I agree with that. You know, it's funny though, because often times I do believe that's the definition in theory, but a lot of times the term "diversity and inclusion" is just kind of used to make sure that folks don't get sued, right? Like, "We're not racist and we don't discriminate against people, so we're gonna use the term diversity and inclusion." You know what I'm saying? Like, if you look--I've seen some organizations--listen, I can't go into all of the details, but I've walked into a variety of companies, okay? And organizations can be as homogeneous as a pot of peas, okay?Ade: As a pot of peas...Zach: As a pot of peas. They all look the same. Everybody looks the same. [laughs] That's right. I'm country. I said it. A pot of peas. But on their website, oh, boy... boy, they got all the--all the jargon, all the lingo.Ade: Every stock photo of every [?] you can imagine.Zach: I see the same five black people in all of these diversity and inclusion photos.Ade: I mean, at least they have the common sense to actually have photos of people that they actually employ on their website. I have seen some egregious cases of literally stock photos on these websites.Zach: That's what I'm saying. That's what I've seen. I've seen the same--oh, I see what you--you thought I was saying the same black people on one website. No. Well, I've seen that too, but I'm saying I've seen the same stock photo images across multiple companies.Ade: Wow. Like, have you no shame? Have you no decency?Zach: [laughs] My goodness. There's millions of us out here. My gosh.Ade: There's literally billions, but I think the additional point, though, is that, like, it tells me what you value as an organization when you're willing to put more time and effort into planning your happy hours than you are into truly representing, not just racially but with the gender diversity makeup, the disability diversity makeup, with--like, there's so much that goes into thinking through what it means to have a diverse organization, and y'all will blow your HR budget on beer. And not even good beer.Zach: Not even good beer, lowkey.Ade: It drives me nuts that the conversation that we have about diversity and inclusion is about making it more palatable for everybody else as opposed to being like, "No, let's center this on what the truth of the matter is and what reality is as opposed to let's center this on what makes people comfortable."Zach: That's real. You're kind of jumping the gun a little bit, but I feel you. I feel you.Ade: My bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good. I'm excited. I mean, like, now I'm activated, you know what I'm saying? I'm here. Let's go. [both laugh]Ade: Get active.Zach: But no, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting because--so I had, like, a crazy idea, right? So we know that companies actively--you know, like, when you look at black and brown unemployment, disabled unemployment, it is drastically higher, right, than majority unemployment. It would be dope though if companies, when they interviewed people and, like, they know--you know you're not about to hire that black or brown person, so you say, "Hey, listen, I'm not gonna hire you, but I'd love to take your picture for some of our diversity and inclusion stock photos."Ade: Excuse me? First of all, lawsuit. I'm not even gonna say anything. I'll just nod, smile, and, like, put Voice Memo on on my phone and just--Zach: [laughing] I couldn't even say that with a straight face, but it's--but you know what, though? There's some money in there somewhere, man. There's some business in there somewhere.Ade: All right. If you're done being ridiculous, let's focus.Zach: No, I'm not--listen, I'm not really being ridiculous, because as an--as an aside, y'all, I just read some article at random about this little 12-year-old white kid who was getting six-figure deals to create dances for rap songs, and then people buy the dances, and then, like, they pay him. But he's not doing--he's not doing new dances though.Ade: These dances he's creating are a compilation of dances that black people came up with.Zach: Black dances. Yes, yes.Ade: I just also--I think this is a separate conversation actually, but I wanted to have a conversation about what it means to monetize blackness divorced of black people.Zach: I'm here for it. Well, this is--so I feel like I'm--Ade: We're going down this rabbit hole.Zach: [laughs] We are, but no, seriously though, the reason I was being--I was, like, making a joke--it's kind of a joke, it's kind of not--is like, people are out here monetizing and getting bread off of this, off of the concept of D&I, without actually doing any D&I, right? And so I'm just saying, like, at least if you did that, you--at least some of these black people who are unemployed that have a little bit more money in their pocket while they look for their next job. I mean, something--I don't know. There's something there, but anyway. Okay, cool. So we've talked a little bit about what we think D&I is. We've done some research, right?Ade: Oh, actually, I also want to have another example of this.Zach: Yes, keep going.Ade: Did you see recently that Twitter Detroit posted a picture of their office space? And all white people. Every single person in that photo.Zach: Mm-mm, did not see that.Ade: Yeah, every single person in that photo was white. Now, I think it later came out that the--all of the black people that they had employed at Twitter Detroit was at NSBE, although I don't quite--I don't quite know the truth of that statement, but it was just a really striking photo, that you are in Detroit, a city that is 84 or 85% black...Zach: Detroit is black black.Ade: Blackity-black as hell.Zach: Detroit's the kind of black that makes other people, you know, kind of uncomfortable. [laughs] Like, it's black. It's a lot of black people.Ade: Kind of. Detroit--up until, like, three, four years ago, Detroit was the kind of black that these type of white people were not going into.Zach: I mean, to be--to be honest, that's true. That's true.Ade: Anyway, I say all of that--Zach: So they said all of the black people was at NSBE?Ade: I don't know if--again, this is not something that I did a ton of research into, because they posted an apology tweet attached to that first image... and I can read the tweet to you actually. It says, "We hear you on the lack of diversity. We're committed to making our company reflect the people we serve, and that includes here in Detroit. We've got a lot more work to do. We have a team at NSBE now, and we look forward to connecting with the amazing people there." I just have two questions. The first is there are three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine maybe people in here, all of whom are white-presenting. There are a couple of people who are out of the photo or they have their backs turned, so I don't know necessarily how true that is, but it's incredible to me the--because I was able to see that photo, and obviously a lot of people were able to see that photo, and immediately see the problem, but what does it say of your organizations that you are so deeply homogeneous that you don't recognize right off the bat that, "Hey, we're in Detroit. Every single one of us in here is white. What does that say about this organization?Zach: Well, you know what they're gonna say. They're gonna say it's about diversity of thought, Ade. Diversity of thought.Ade: That's cute.Zach: [laughs]Ade: And let me not poo-poo that idea out the gate. Let us treat that as a serious, intellectual argument. Okay, so you were saying that diversity of thought is more important than physical diversity, gender diversity, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. However, what does it say that you think the only diversity that matters, diversity of thought that matters, is the kind of diversity of thought that represents you? Because there's no way you're telling me that you have the exact same thoughts and the exact same experiences and the exact same lens as, say, a black queer man who grew up in Detroit. There's just no--I don't believe that could ever be the case. Like, if you are from--if you're a queer man from midtown Chicago, you don't have the same thoughts as a queer man from Detroit. So I don't understand how that is even an argument that anyone could make, but I say all of that to say that diversity is important. So is inclusion, because it would suck even more if the person taking that photo had been a person of color or had been the only disabled person in the office or had been the only neuro-divergent person in the office, and they're not even included in the photo. You see what I'm saying? Like, there's--Zach: Oh, I hear you. Yeah. I'm letting you cook.Ade: There's so many different--[laughs] there's so many different--thank you, friend--there's so many different layers of complexity to that that on the one hand, why don't you have any of these--any of these types of diversity represented in your office? But also I don't know that it would be a safe space for anybody to walk up and say, "Oh, I'm the only black person in here." Having to represent at all times, that just sounds exhausting. So it's just--it's a very difficult conversation for me to--for me to really think through. Do you have some thoughts, friend?Zach: You know, I do, I do, and I appreciate you actually, like, slowing us down a little bit, 'cause I was gonna say that, you know, we did some research, right, and we've read a few things--just a couple thinkpieces, you know what I'm saying? Some Gallup data from the civil rights movement and some other things, you know what I'm saying? And labor data all around what does it really mean to be diverse and inclusive in an organization. And, you know, we've seen, like, you know, five things organizations are doing wrong, the top three reasons why D&I doesn't work, you know, what makes an effective D&I organization, what makes an effective D&I strategy, da-da-da-da-da, and so, look, as opposed to us reading all of our--all of the findings that we've had and just kind of reading it to you--boring, right--we decided--we, Living Corporate, right, Zach and Ade--decided to give y'all our own list of what you need to know about diversity and inclusion so that you can actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy. Yo, JJ. Drop the Flex bomb. Whoa.Ade: Not the flex bomb. [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Boom.Ade: I'm really looking forward to you being a dad, because you're just so equipped, and I'm tired of hearing your dad jokes.Zach: Nah, drop the Flex bomb. [dropping] In fact, JJ, drop it again. Yes.Ade: JJ, please stop. [he stops] Thank you.Zach: Nah, but it's--you know, it's important. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna give y'all some game for free. We're gonna give you some of our thought leadership for nothing at all. All y'all gotta do is listen. I mean, come on. I ain't trying to brag, but I'm saying, like, we're pretty dope, right? Am I wrong, Ade?Ade: I mean, no.Zach: Okay, here we go. So how many of these do we have? We've got five, right?Ade: I mean, something like that, but you know we can always expand on our lists if we start riffing off each other, et cetera, et cetera. We got five. We got five on it.Zach: All right, we got five. We have five on it. We're not messing with that endo weed, because it's not federally legal, but we do have five on it. [both laugh] Okay, here we go. First things first. [Ade continues laughing] You're really laughing. That's funny. First things first, diversity and inclusion are two different things. I know.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars, I know. Diversity and inclusion are two different things. Often enough times, we kind of just throw the terms "diversity" and "inclusion," like, we just smack 'em together, but they're actually very different, right? So a lot of us understand what diversity is. Diversity is the concept of having a variety of experiences, perspectives, in gender representation, ethnic representation, able-bodied representation, sexual orientation representation, right? Like, geographic representation. Having different types of perspectives in a space. Like, that's the concept of--Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: [?] Sorry.Zach: It's good. Hey, JJ. Just cut all that out. That part is diversity, right? Inclusion though is different, right? Inclusion is not just about--it's not just about having people have a seat at the table, but making sure that those voices are actually heard at the table. And so a lot of times we'll say, "Well, inclusion means making sure people feel included." Inclusion means the power not only to sit at the table but to speak and have your voice equally heard at that table, right? And so it's not just enough to have a variety of voices at a table if only a certain number of voices or a certain type of voice is gonna be heard. Then it just kind of becomes, like, a dog and pony show, right? So no, I mean, that's really what it means, all right? Inclusion is all about making sure that those voices that have a seat at the table actually are heard, and typically, because of the hierarchical natures of these companies, voices that are not high on the totem pole are not heard, right? So it's about making sure that those voices are actually supported and given authority and access so that their ideas can be mobilized, right? I think a lot of times when we talk about inclusion it's like, "Oh, we have you in the room," but you're, like, over in the corner, or you're just kinda--and it also just kind of makes you feel tokenized, right? It's about actually making sure you have a voice. So that's the first one. Diversity and inclusion is--the first one is people don't really understand that diversity and inclusion are two different things, and they don't understand what those words mean.Ade: My turn. So beyond, you know, expanding the table and inviting people to eat--that's one of the phrases that I've used to describe, or that I've heard used to describe, diversity and inclusion, empowering people. I also would like to make the point that it's not the responsibility of marginalized people to diversity your workplace. What I've seen happen time and time again is that these embattled corporations where people realize "Oh, no, we treated diversity and inclusion as an afterthought, and now everybody looks like [trash?]. What do we do?" And they will hire somebody, usually a high-profile person, black person or a queer woman, they'll bring these people in and do nothing to change the fact that the culture that fostered this homogeneity continues, and so--and in so doing make it the responsibility of this person that they invited into this hostile workplace, make it their responsibility to improve everything. And then when said person starts making points like, "Yeah, you really shouldn't be making rape jokes during our lunch hour. You shouldn't be making them at all, but it's especially not appropriate in the work space," or saying things like, "Yeah, I'm actually not gonna let you touch my hair, Karen. I don't want to do that, and you don't have my permission to do that, so great talk." They're treated as though they are the problem, and we don't address the institutional racism. We address the black women talking about the institutional racism. We don't address the institutional--just general lack of respect for people with disabilities, and it's something that you would know if you spoke to the people who are experiencing these things, but it is instead more expedient to pat yourselves on the back for your awesome allyship and employing someone in a wheelchair and doing nothing to ensure that this person in a wheelchair is safe, comfortable, and can do their job without feeling belittled or patronized or outright ignored. So to restate my point, it is not the responsibility of the marginalized person to do the work of diversity and inclusion. It's not their job. It is everybody's job to ensure that the workplace is open and accessible.Zach: That's good. That's good.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] You like that. That makes you--that makes you giggle. Bars makes you laugh. I've noticed that over the past few episodes here. Okay, my turn. So in the spirit of your last point, my third--the third entry here is that diversity and inclusion will only go as far as the majority allows it to go, okay? So I'ma say it again. Diversity and inclusion will go...Ade: Bars.Zach: Only [laughs] as far as the majority allows it to go. So what do I mean by this? Let me give y'all some statistics from some Gallup polls back in 1961, in the throes of our U.S. civil rights movement. I'm gonna give y'all a few data points. Here we go. Do you approve--and this is a poll, right, a Gallup poll, given to white folks in 1961, again, in the middle of the civil rights movement. Here we go. "Do you approve or disapprove of what the Freedom Riders are doing?" 22% approved, 61% disapproved, 18% had no opinion. Here's another one. "Do you think sit-ins at lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes will hurt or help the Negroes' chance of being integrated in the south?" 57% said they believe it will hurt, 28% said it will help, 16% said no opinion. Here's the last one, okay? This is the [Survey Research Amalgam?]. This is April, 1963. "Some people feel that in working for equal rights for Negroes, Reverend Martin Luther King is moving too fast. Others think he is not working fast enough. What do you think?" 8% said he's moving too fast. 71% said he's moving at the right speed. 21% said he isn't moving fast enough. And so, you know, when we talk about--when we talk about, like, historically, right, civil rights, not just for African-Americans, but it's the easiest one for us to point to because historically, like, when you kind of--like, there's the most data points around it, and, you know, really, if we were to go by the data and the survey data and what people were really comfortable with, then we would still probably not really be--I mean, we're not really integrated, but we wouldn't have even the civil rights laws we have, right? And I think an uncomfortable reality is when you talk about diversity and inclusion and you talk about creating a truly diverse and inclusive working environment, it can only go as far as the majority is comfortable with it going, right? And when you think about the fact that--like, when you look at the civil rights laws, and you especially look--if you look at our present, right, like, we're fighting to maintain some very basic civil rights laws that we achieved over 50 years ago, just over 50 years ago, like, and we haven't really made, in terms of legislation, much progress since then. In fact, again, we're fighting just to keep what we established 50 years ago, and really, if you think about historically, what we fought to get 50 years ago, we should have already had, like, 50 to 60 years before that. And so, you know, I think that's--like, again, just kind of pointing to your point--like, really reinforcing your point around the fact that, like, it's not--it's not about making people comfortable. It's not about, like, just kind of checking a box, and ultimately, it's gonna take all of us, but the majority, to drive and make sure that we're actually moving forward. It can't be the responsibility of the marginalized to move the needle. We don't have the numbers. We don't have the power.Ade: Facts.Zach: So that's number three. I'm volleying it back to you.Ade: Okay. I think I'm gonna expand on a point that I made at the end of my last--my last rant. So diversity and inclusion is all of our responsibility. It is not a position. It is not--the term Chris Moreland used was a function, and it's also not about how good it makes individual people feel. It's not about the money that it makes for the organization. Like, sure, yes, there are stats out there that show how good it is to have a diverse workplace, but--and I'm starting to realize that it's really not a common thing or a common opinion anymore to do things because they're the right thing to do. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis on this, and that's trash.Zach: That's really trash.Ade: Yeah, I don't--I don't know what's happening. Maybe I shouldn't say that. I know what's happening. It's capitalism.Zach: Right.Ade: But the point is that diversity and inclusion is about you as the individual respecting the whole of other people who are individuals in your workspaces and recognizing when there are individuals who aren't welcome in your workplace and doing something to change that. Even beyond what it means to be an ally. You are actively doing the work of being a good human being and encouraging others in your workplace to do the same. I think I--when we were working on the Disabled At Work episode, I read a story about a guy who got a job working at one of these big tech companies, and he just knew it was gonna suck, right? Because when he had interviewed there, he did not see anybody who was wheelchair-bound as he was, and he had a very large electric wheelchair, and he was like, "I can't turn it down because of the money, but I feel like this is not going to be great." But he then told stories of how everybody was inclusive. They would ensure that he could get his scooter up and down these hills in San Francisco. They would ensure that he wasn't just stuck being wet when it rained or that he could have a standing desk as opposed to the lower desk that wouldn't work for his electrical chair. So there were all of these different parts of what it means to be inclusive, and not just empowering and recognizing the diversity in your coworkers, but also saying--taking it a step further and being like, "I'm right there with you." Like, "Whatever it is that you need in order to feel comfortable in this space, in order to feel human in this space--" Like, we gotta be here at least 8 hours a day, dogg. Like, the least we can do is ensure that you are your whole self while you're here, and I think that is such a significant thing to highlight. It's such a significant thing because it very, very easily goes unspoken that you have a responsibility to your coworkers to not just be kind but be supportive.Zach: You know, I think a large part of diversity and inclusion just comes--like, a large part of it is driven by empathy, right? Like, really--and I know that Chris talked about this too in the interview. It was just about, like, understanding someone's story. Like, building a connection with them. Like, really understanding them. It's challenging for me though, because, like--and I really--I love what Chris is doing, not only at Vizient but with his own start-up--with his own start-up at Storytellers, you know, but I don't have to hear your story, right, like, for me to treat you and recognize that you're a human being, you know what I'm saying? Like, I shouldn't have to. I get it. I get it from a relationship-building perspective. Maybe I need to hear your story for us to, like, really build trust, but I shouldn't have to hear your story for us to, like--for me to just empathize and recognize that you breathe--you're breathing and walking, or--you're breathing and existing and having a human experience just like me. It's heartbreaking, to be honest, when I think about it like that. But okay, cool. So last one. I think I'm--I think it's on me.Ade: Most definitely.Zach: All right. So really kind of pigging--piggy-backing off of my first point, but it's really important. Ayo, if you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Say it again. If you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Listen, it's not enough for organizations just to hire non-majority people, right? Because often times if you look at the turnover rate of non-majority employees, they're significantly higher than majority employees, and if you do a cross-analysis with non-majority turnover and minority representation, you'll see some connections--you'll see some connections there, right? Like, you'll see in organizations that are not truly inclusive, that do not have representation and some level of power, distribution of power for non-majority people, those organizations struggle to retain non-majority talent, and I think something to continue to keep in mind--organizations, I'm talking to y'all--listen, man, these gener--like, millennials and these Generation Z, the people coming behind us, we're aware. Like, we pay attention, and we're sensitive to that. Like, we peep game. Like, we're gonna look and be like, "Oh, there's no--there's none of me here. I don't see myself here. Okay, so I know I probably got only so much time to go before I gotta find somewhere to be," or when something goes wrong or they feel like they're not getting the coaching that they need or they're not getting the development that they need or they're getting passed over for promotion, if they don't feel like they can talk to somebody and they're not represented in the decision--in that pool of people that actually make the decisions and make the company grow and grow, then they're not gonna feel like they can talk to anybody, and they're gonna leave, right? They're gonna be even more discouraged to, like, even try to stay, because they'll be like, "For what? I'ma be the--I'm the only person here." They're not gonna be as comfortable when it comes to networking and trying to build relationships and--Ade: Correct.Zach: Right? Because they don't know who they can talk to. Like--and then, like, many of us, we're the first people from our families in Corporate America. That's my story. Ade, is that your story?Ade: Like, only one.Zach: Exactly. [laughs]Ade: Solo dolo.Zach: Solo dolo, and so, like, ayo, like, inclusion is important, and I guess part B to this one is listen, diversity of thought by itself is not real. Okay? That's right. I'm giving y'all two, so we got six now. Diversity of thought is not--diversity of thought on its own is not real. It's a term that some group of people in some laboratory made up just to kind of pat themselves on the back and create diversity where there really isn't any.Ade: Not a laboratory.Zach: [laughs] They made crack and diversity of thought in the same place. What's up?Ade: I am...Zach: JJ, give me them air horns right here. [laughs]Ade: Okay. Okay, [?].Zach: Nah, but for real though, like, it's not real. Like, so diversity of thought is as relevant as diversity of experience, and if you look at American history, experiences are sharply divided along racial, gender, and sexual orien--lines of sexual orientation. Ade, you got another one?Ade: Just a final thought.Zach: Do your thing.Ade: I think that paying lip service to diversity is almost worse than not doing anything and not paying attention to diversity and inclusion in the first place, because you--when you pay lip service to diversity, you delude people into thinking your workplace is a safe space and that they can come to your jobs and bring their own selves and come and do what they love to do for you. When you don't even pretend, it lets everybody know who to avoid. When you pay lip service and you end up being these ultra-toxic, ultra-just all around disgusting places for people, it's almost heartbreaking, right, because people want to come into these places and do good work and go home and love their families, and instead they come into these places, you gaslight them, pretend that nothing is actually happening when, you know, they're facing all of these micro-aggressions, they are being passed up for promotions, their careers are stalling, and they have no allies and no way out. It's a pretty abusive relationship, I'd call that, and even further than that I would say that, you know, you're actively oppressing them in that scenario. So I say all of that to say that if you know that you have no investment whatsoever in diversity and inclusion and the success of everybody--and the growth, too, of all of these folks, then just leave us alone. Love us or leave us alone. That's all I ask.Zach: No, real talk though. No lukewarm DM--no lukewarm stuff, right? Be hot or cold. Either you're in or you're out.Ade: The man came through with a word from the church for y'all.Zach: [laughs]Ade: Don't think I didn't notice, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Man, okay. Well, y'all, so this has been a dope B-Side, just sharing our thoughts about the interview with Chris Moreland. Really enjoyed him, and yeah. Ade, anything else? Do we want to do Favorite Things? Are we good?Ade: My Favorite Thing right now--we can if you have something.Zach: I got something. Go ahead, yeah.Ade: Okay. Okay, so my current Favorite Thing is the voice of a young reggae artist known as Koffee. Love, love, love--I have just been listening to her on repeat lately and finding out--finding her music, where I can find her, but amazing. I love her.Zach: That's what's up.Ade: That's it for my Favorite Things.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, you know--Ade: Oh, wait. I lied.Zach: Keep going. Go crazy.Ade: Sorry, one other Favorite Thing. I have this book I'm currently reading. It is the AWS Certified Solutions Architect Study Guide.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, it's my second Favorite Thing. It's just a personal--as a reminder to myself to keep working.Zach: I respect that. Okay, okay. I have one Favorite Thing, and this Favorite Thing, it's--you know, it's something that I partake in every day. It's actually a beverage, and this beverage--this beverage is called kombucha.Ade: Oh, I thought you were gonna say water. I was about to be like--Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. I definitely do drink water every day though, and shout-out--ayo, if you're listening to this, go ahead and get yourself some water. I don't care what time it is. Ayo, get some water and take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip. Okay, so--[both laugh] Okay, so--Ade: Some ASMR peer pressure for your head top.Zach: That was incredible. Yo, we should actually do an ASMR episode of us just, like, drinking water quietly. [whispering] "Ah." [like his thirst was quenched, laughs]Ade: No. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: "Ah, these ice cubes." We could, like--no, but seriously though, 'cause we got these--these mics are pretty good. Like, we could just take--like, make sure the ice hits the glass. Clink, clink, clink. You know what I'm saying? It's, like, all soft. All right, so listen here. Kombucha--and please don't--y'all, don't kill me in the comments if I'm saying it wrong. I'm country. Forgive me. It is a fermented, slightly--only slightly--alcoholic green or black tea drink, okay? It is so good. Like, think about it like--it's like a soda. It's like a healthy soda, right? And there's--Ade: [?]Zach: Say it again?Ade: I wouldn't go that far, a healthy soda.Zach: You wouldn't go that far? It's like a healthy soda.Ade: No, it's not.Zach: It's carbonated. It has some bite to it.Ade: You know what? You're right. Who are me to disagree with your Favorite Thing? My bad.Zach: [laughs] It's so good though, y'all, and it's like--and so, like, you know, it comes in all kinds of flavors. You can--and it's a fermented tea, right? So you take the tea, and it's fermented, and then you put, like--you know, you can put whatever you want in there to flavor it. So, like, I'll--my favorite flavor is ginger-ade. It's like ginger and lemon and honey and fermented, like, fermented with the kombucha. Man, it is so good, and it's low-calorie, right? So, like, a bottle--like, the same amount of this drink that would be, like, I don't know, 200 calories in soda is, like, 50 calories. And it's good for your digestion, so it helps keep you regular. That's right, we're talking about health. We talk about wellness on this podcast, so part of wellness is making sure that you're regular. Come on, Ade. You know what I'm talking about.Ade: Please leave me out of this narrative.Zach: [laughs] But it's important, y'all. It's important. It's important to be regular, and so anyway, kombucha, it helps. It has those live cultures and bacteria for your stomach, and it's just delicious. It's just so good. So yeah, that's my Favorite Thing. I don't have a brand, 'cause we don't have no sponsors for kombucha yet, just like, you know, Capital City Mambo Sauce ain't wanna show us any love, but we still love y'all. It's okay, it's okay, but I'm not giving no more free ads, okay? So I'm not gonna talk about the brand. I'ma just say I like kombucha. Or is kam-buka? What is it?Ade: I'm pretty sure it's kombucha.Zach: Okay, cool. I just wanted to make sure I said it right.Ade: But then you said it really, really wrong, so I really don't know if you saying it right in the first place even counts.Zach: [laughs] Dang, that's jacked up. You're supposed to be my peace.Ade: No, sir, I'm not. Candice would have my head.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I just--first of all, that was a setup. Secondly--I forgot everything I was about to say because I was--I was so startled and taken aback at that--at that statement, wow. Candice, if you're listening to this, I don't want [?]. That is all.Zach: Candice gonna show up--Candice gonna show up to D.C. with that Yao Ming on her all 'cause of me being silly, and I apologize.Ade: All of the choppas just aimed in my direction, and I want none of it. I'm good.Zach: Yeah, nah, 'cause I'm joking. It's jokes, it's jokes. Candice don't listen to this podcast.Ade: Wait a minute. Now [?].Zach: [laughs]Ade: All right, y'all. That does it for us on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and please subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question for us that you'd like us to read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. We're also taking any wins that you've had lately. We're taking any [refuse?], any thoughts that you'd like to share with us. That's it for us. This has been Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

We have the pleasure of speaking with Chris Moreland, the chief diversity and inclusion advocate at Vizient. He explains why he puts inclusion first and talks about the top three things most companies are getting wrong when it comes to D&I.Connect with Chris on LinkedIn!https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisjmoreland/Connect with us!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: It's Ade.Zach: So listen, y'all, we gonna get straight to it this time, 'cause we have a really special guest. I'm really excited. Today we have the opportunity--we had the opportunity rather to sit down and speak with Chris Moreland. He's the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient Incorporated, based out of Dallas, Texas, and I'm just gonna read a little bit of his profile so we can kind of talk about what we're talking about today. Known for possessing a contagious regard for winning, a bias for action and a healthy disrespect for insurmountable challenges. A street-smart C-level leader with a diverse industry background, an indispensable partner for innovative organizations, people development, and building teams. Chris is best known for leading organizations through change, developing innovative solutions, and deciphering ambiguity. He established a track record of performance and execution at Fortune 500 icons like Vizient, Microsoft, Expedia, General Electric, Johnson & Johnson, Pepsi, and Mobil, okay? So this person that we got to speak to today, he and I had an amazing conversation about inclusion and diversity, and in the conversation that you're gonna hear, you'll hear why he puts inclusion first, but we're really excited and want y'all to hear the whole interview, and so we don't want to make it too long by, you know, adding to it, so--Ade: We're gonna keep it short and sweet.Zach: That's right, we're gonna keep it short and sweet. So unfortunately, Ade, no Favorite Things this week.Ade: Nope, but we have an amazing, amazing, amazing interview, so it's good.Zach: It's dope. And after the interview, you know, we'll wrap from there, but the next week we've got a B-Side, and it's me and Ade talking about the interview, talking about D&I, and, you know, having fun. Hopefully y'all laugh. Maybe y'all will cry. Maybe you'll laugh and cry at the same time. I don't know. We'll see. Maybe. [strange noise]Ade: What was that noise? [laughs]Zach: It was like a [strange noise]. It was a shrug. That's, like, a shrug if I was to put a noise to it. [again]Ade: I'm gonna pass on your sound effects skills once again.Zach: Man, my sound effects skills are fire, but that's okay. In fact, you know what? Hold on. JJ, go ahead and give me some air horns, one time for ya head top, for Chris Moreland, 'cause he gave us a fire interview. [imitating air horns] Let's go. [JJ drops 'em] I'm giving him the air horns before we even get to the interview. That's how fire the interview was. What's up?Ade: Look, I don't disagree. Shout-out to Chris. Amazing conversation.Zach: Shout-out to Chris.Ade: You on the other hand are a walking dad joke store.Zach: Yo, I really feel like--so watching that movie Us, I really feel as if that character that ya mans was playing was really just me in, like, five years with no beard, but that's me.Ade: Like, Winston Duke's character?Zach: Yes, I feel like that's me.Ade: I have not heard great reviews, so you probably should not--Zach: No, first of all, Us is fire, and we can talk about that later.Ade: Well, not--you know what? Yes, let's close this out.Zach: So shout-out to Chris, shout-out to Vizient, and yo, shout-out to him being the chief storyteller at Storyteller's Consulting. He's gonna talk a little bit about that in the interview as well, and we'll make sure we have all of this information in the podcast notes, but look, until next week, it's been Zach.Ade: And this has been Ade.Zach: Y'all check out this interview. Peace.Ade: Peace.Zach: And we're back. And so as we shared before the break, we have Chris Moreland on the show. Chris, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Chris: I'm fantastic. Thanks so much, Zach.Zach: For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself and how you got into your field?Chris: Absolutely. Well, my name is Chris Moreland. I reside in Dallas, Texas, and I am now the chief inclusion and diversity advocate at Vizient. Vizient is basically a supply chain company that does GPO for health care systems. We do about 100--maybe 105, 110 billion dollars worth of hospital spend on an annual basis.Zach: That's awesome. You know, I guess for me--so let me just say as a quick aside, and this isn't even in my questions, but I just wanted to say it--it's really inspiring to see a person of color, and frankly a black man, in such a position of influence, and I'm just really excited to have you here. So I probably should've said that at the beginning. I don't really care. This is our show. I just want to tell you that I'm happy that you're here.Chris: It's good to be here. It's good to be here.Zach: Absolutely. So look, let's get into it. So I'm on this app, right, called Fishbowl, and it's an anonymous posting app for consultants. Every now and then diversity and inclusion comes up, and most are disillusioned by the topic because it's being seen as a lot of talk and very little walk. So what do you think are some of the top three things most companies are getting wrong when they talk about diversity and inclusion?Chris: Right. That's a really good question, Zach, and it's not a simple answer, but I'll try to simplify the answer. There are several things that companies are not getting right, and if you--if you look at the most recent research, I think it points to some very important things that I think, going forward, we really need to focus on. The first thing is that most companies tend to put diversity and inclusion into the bucket of human resources as though it is part of a function which is different than the function of marketing, which is different than the function of, you know, research and development, which would be different than the function of sales. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes, by putting it specifically in a function. The second thing that I think goes wrong often times with the way companies approach diversity and inclusion is around--they use education as a way of changing behaviors, and we can talk about this a lot more later, but education has been proven now as being the least credible way of changing a human being's behavior, okay? And then the third piece, which I think a lot of people get wrong as far as diversity and inclusion, is how they think about diversity and inclusion relative to accountability. It's one thing to talk about it, but it's a whole 'nother thing when no one ultimately is accountable for the changes that they would like to make relative to diversity and inclusion.Zach: Expound upon that a bit more if you could.Chris: Absolutely. So the first piece around which function generally owns diversity and inclusion, and that being human resources. The reason why that normally doesn't vet out very well for companies is that the organization then feels like their [?] human resource officer is ultimately responsible for diversity and inclusion, and that's an error. Diversity and inclusion should be part of every function. It should be part of the culture of the organization. It should not be quarantined off into a specific function, because it should flow just like values, just like goals, just like culture. It should be part of the way we do business. It should be used as an enabler, not as a functionally-constrained part of an organization. You know, the second piece, which points education--education, as you know, is something that people try to use to make different decisions and result in different behaviors, but as you know if you've ever gone to church, if you've ever seen students in school, education doesn't necessarily mean that once a person knows what they should do, knows the right thing to do, understands the impact of certain actions, that they are going to then adopt those habits, those practices. Each of us go to church every Sunday, and we--depending upon what denomination you may be part of, but you can see the same church crowd that sits in the pews on Sunday, they go out and cut each other off in traffic immediately following the service in some cases, and so it's--you know, it's a bad way of thinking that "I'm going to change the behavior by telling you the right thing to do." And in the last piece, which is what I call just accountability, is that, you know, again, if it's in HR, a lot of times HR feels accountable solely, but no one else in the organization feels as though they have any accountability. They feel as though it has been quarantined off and thus there is a function that is accountable for it, but that is the only function that ultimately becomes accountable for it in that instance, so yeah.Zach: Man, that's incredible. When you and I first met, we talked about diversity and inclusion, and you told me--you said, "Zach, you know, a lot of times people get those letters--the order of those letters wrong, and they should be putting inclusion first." So let me ask you this - what does inclusion really mean practically, and how can companies actualize inclusion in the workplace?Chris: Right. So inclusion, in my title and at least at Vizient, we actually put that word in front of diversity, because inclusion has more to do with the actions that you are taking. Inclusion has to do with "Who's in the conversation? Is the conversation being had? Does everyone's perspective, opinions, and backgrounds matter? Is there value seen in my difference?" Not "Am I different?" Diversity, which really comes from a Latin root word meaning "divertere," or "to divert, to separate." It's the differences between us. It's pretty much meaningless in any organization unless you have the inclusion part first, and the inclusion means that I see you, I see your differences, and I see the value in those differences, and ultimately I don't want to move forward with any decision, with any strategy, with any proposal, until I get all different sides of this idea understood and heard, because understanding that when I am inclusive I actually get a much better outcome. It should always precede diversity. Diversity by itself is pretty meaningless unless it is preceded by inclusion.Zach: Yeah. No, absolutely, and so I'm curious - what methods have you seen that are effective when it comes to organizations really leaning into the inclusion piece of their I&D strategy?Chris: Right. That's a great question, because there is a--there is a huge difference. It's like night and day when it comes to organizations and effectiveness of those organizations when you do lead with inclusion. A couple of practices. One, there is--there are very few human beings that I've met thus far who are openly and consciously biased. In other words, open and conscious bias means that I see you, I see your differences, and I am absolutely just going to deliberately exclude those differences from my decisions, from my thoughts, from my practices, from my campaigns and everything else. When I lead with inclusion, what it does is it says I understand that I have this subconscious, this subliminal, this unconscious ability or need or desire to assimilate with those things that look similar to me, and we all have this in our personalities. We all want to assimilate with like things. We want to be around people who look like us, act like us, talk like us, have the same backgrounds as us, because it makes us more comfortable, and there's nothing wrong with that, but in order to actively have an inclusive culture, you have to understand that it's an uphill battle. It goes against our natural tendencies, and so when organizations actually adopt a truly inclusive culture, it doesn't start with just education, making people aware of the subconscious knack to go away from things that are not like you. It actually does more than that. It goes to creating an understanding of what those differences are and why and how those differences can and should be used to create greater value. I'm not talking about, in this case, educating you on unconscious bias. I think you may remember more recently in the news Starbucks had a situation with one of their restaurants, and they shut their stores down for an entire half-day, and what they did was they focused on educating people on unconscious bias. So there was a training that was done around unconscious bias, and the net effect of that training based on all research is that it had a shelf life of about 90 minutes.Zach: 90 min--an hour and a half?!Chris: 90--an hour and a half. It had a shelf life of 90 minutes, but then our natural, innate tendencies go back to exactly the way we were before we were exposed to that education and training. And so the good thing is that they at least acknowledged that there needed to be something done. The bad thing is that they're using the same tools that we used in 1962, in this country, in order to make civil rights the rights of everyone, and you can see, you know, 50 some odd years later, the outcomes are the same. It's because the techniques and the practices are the same. A lot of it is education, and then the second piece to that is legislation. So when you educate and legislate, you believe that, "Oh, things are going to change." They don't change. These are behavioral tendencies that we have to tap into in order to try and counteract things and make people's behaviors actually change.Zach: Well, see, it's interesting that you say that because--in terms of the historical lens by which you're looking through to discuss inclusion and diversity and facilitating change, because I don't necessarily know if I--if I see a lot of the historical narrative being engaged when we talk about effective methods and approaches to really driving inclusion and diversity, and often times, in my experience, these programs rarely even engage the subject of race explicitly, even to the point where they may create, like, different points of diversity. Like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, and yes, I'm not saying that those points don't exist, Chris, but historically, like, those points, they're strongly interwoven with the intersection of gender and ethnicity, right? But I don't know if I necessarily 1. see a lot of invoking of history when we talk about education and effective methods moving forward in the future, and I don't know if I see a lot of--in fact, sometimes I hear diversity of thought or diversity of education or diversity of background really used as replacements for diversity of race and intersection between--intersectionality of gender and race. Have you seen that? And if you kind of see where I'm coming from, why do you think that is?Chris: Yeah. So let me answer both questions pretty quickly, and then I'll get into a little detail. So the answer is yes and yes. Yes, I have seen it happen. Yes, it is very, very frustrating, and yes, I do understand why it is happening the way that it is happening, because--first let's go back to the terms of diversity and inclusion and why most people tend to use the word diversity preceding the word inclusion. It is because it is a lot easier for me to point out all of the differences between, you know, the 7.5 billion people that are in this world. I can tell you there are differences for all of us, and we should all be aware of and appreciative of all of those differences, but let's think about that at a neurological level, because that's where change happens. It happens at a neurological level. So Zach, if you walk into a room, and a person who walks into a room--and you're originally from where, Texas?Zach: Yes.Chris: Okay, so you're originally from Texas. So you walk into a room, and then right next to you a straight Caucasian male walks into the room, and his background just happens to not be from Texas. Let's say he's from L.A., okay? So he has diversity of experience. You have diversity of race. You both walk into the same room, and you're both seen by a group of executives that are sitting around the table that you're about to engage. Sitting around that table, what do you physically think the reaction will be of your presence versus your male straight white counterpart's presence who just happens to be from L.A.? Both having diversity, you know, based on just them walking into the room. And again, the audience--let's say the audience is full of Texans, okay? So if you--go ahead. Please answer that question, and then I can go on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, I think--I think that if it's all Texans and they are, let's say, all white men, I think they're gonna gravitate and presume that the white--my white counterpart is the more senior, more competent authority in the space.Chris: Exactly. There are a certain set of assumptions that go into your brain, in other people's brains, the second you or I walk into a room. The second you or I walk into a bus, the second you or I walk into an elevator. And again, I do not blame the neuroscience behind the minds of the individuals who make assumptions as soon as you or I walk into a room, but it is very different when I used the word diversity talking about race versus when I use the word diversity and I talk about a person's background or a person's education, because certain people have certain assumptions that are attributed to their physical being. They can't help it. You can't help what I think about when I look at you as you walk into a room. You have no control over that. It's just like the white straight male from L.A. cannot help what I may think about him when he walks into the room, but some of these assumptions, some of these thoughts, some of these implicit biases are nothing--they have nothing to do with who's standing in front of you, okay? So I think--going back to your question, I think a lot of times--in the field of diversity and inclusion we've now migrated away from the cornerstone of diversity and inclusion, which had everything to do with gender and race, and we've migrated now to diversity of thought, diversity of background, diversity of experience, diversity of a lot of different things, and I'm not saying any of those things are wrong, but I am saying that neurologically, when I think about the word diversity, the reason why I believe we have to go back to the cornerstone of diversity, which has everything to do with gender and race, because of that reaction when you walked into the room with your white male counterpart. Until I can get this country and individuals in corporate America past the fact that they have no control over that implicit bias associated with that initial impression, then I cannot move forward and start thinking about other forms of diversity because there is an implicit association associated with just your physical presence that, quite frankly, has a stereotype associated with it, and it has a whole set of thoughts and assumptions associated with just your physical presence, which is where I think the work needs to be done, which is where I think we need to start building from.Zach: So you've made mention about making authentic connections and those neuropathic pathways. I'd love to hear more about that. When we first spoke, like, you talked about that. I'd love to hear more about that, because as you and I know, the real change happens at the executive level. So one, please expound a little bit about those pathways and those genuine, like, connections, and then what methods have you seen be effective in driving that sort of openness to be connected outside of one's comfort zone at, like, the top and highest of levels?Chris: Wow. So big question. [both laugh] I'm gonna start with three words, and then I'm gonna dive into each of those words just briefly so I can uncover some of what you've asked. The first word I want to talk about is a word called covering. The second word, or words, I want to talk about is safe place, and then the third word that I want to talk to you about is change and change management, okay? And these are all different, but they're all connected. So covering, let's start off with that. The reason why men and women who look like you and I, who work in corporate America, spend a large percentage of their time covering is because we understand that there are certain stigmas associated with our physical presence and there's no getting around it. The reason why you or I might not necessarily be as open to talk about some of our childhood experiences in the corporate setting is because we do not feel as though they are appropriate, and so we hide them, we cover them. Covering is an actual term that was coined back in the mid-'60s by a sociologist who talked about stigmas associated with all different types of people, and we all have them, you know? Straight white men also have the habits of covering, but they are a lot deeper when it comes to some of the underrepresented races in this country. So if you're either foreign background or of a heritage that puts you into a category as far as being called brown of some sort or shade in this country, you spend a lot of your physical energy covering, covering up who you authentically are, because you do not feel as though it's appropriate. You do not feel that you will have a good opportunity to assimilate unless you cover. And covering goes across the board. It's everything from how you groom yourself to, you know, as you're getting older, some of us, you know, color the gray hairs that may be popping out of our heads, and others of us cover even things like our bodies. Our bodies are a lot of times covered. There's a--the first billionaire female in this country made a billion dollars by covering women. It's the woman who started the SPANX brand in this country. The first billionaire woman under 40, I believe it is. SPANX. SPANX is nothing more than us having an openly bias toward a thinner physical person, and thus SPANX helps us do that, and so we like to cover the fact that we are not necessarily of a certain physicality, and we hide that through things like SPANX. So covering is where a lot of this starts. Go ahead. You have a question.Zach: I was gonna say--you were talking about SPANX. You know, it kind of reminds me of the first black--the first black female billionaire, Madam C.J. Walker, right?Chris: Absolutely, absolutely.Zach: Right? With selling perms and relaxers, right? Like, that was--I think that kind of falls into the bucket of covering. Please continue though. This is amazing.Chris: Yeah. No, you've hit something that is extremely important. I wasn't gonna talk about it because a lot of us suffer from this, but the reason why weaves, the reasons why straight hair, the reason why the European look for African-Americans in this country has been such a phenomenon and has made so many millionaires and billionaires in this country, is because of this thing called covering. When we view something as being the way that we need to better assimilate, we spend our entire lives trying to fit that image, trying to mold ourselves into the image of what we want to assimilate into. We bleach our skin. We straighten our hair. We change the way our body is shaped, all with an effort to cover who we actually are. So a lot of this starts with the idea of [or phenomenon?] called covering. Let me move to the second piece, which is safe space. Safe space is what your executive leaders at every major corporation in this country need to create in order for other people not to feel the need to cover. A safe space is basically an environment or a culture where inclusion is part of what they just do. Inclusion means that I am going to allow you to show up and be your authentic self because I think there is so much value in that. "Chris, I want you to come to work. I want you to dress, act like, be like, you know, fashion yourself after who you really are versus who you believe we want you to be, because we see value in that. We see and understand the value of your differences. We want to know who you are really, and through that story we're actually going to use it to create a better organization, a better company, a better culture." So the idea of creating a safe space can only be done when senior leaders see and understand the influence that they have on an organization and in a culture. If you've ever been in an organization where you felt like there were certain things you can't do, you can't say, certain ways that you just can't act--and not because they're inappropriate, but just because the leader, who creates the culture, has already deemed certain things as being inappropriate, and if you've been in any corporation in this country you know, depending upon which company you're a part of, there's certain things that are just not allowed, and those certain things often times are usually authentic parts of who you are. They're not abusive. They're not distasteful. They're just part of who you naturally are. One key example is my administrative assistant, who for the longest time had been wearing hair pieces and weaves and wigs and everything else, and she had been working for me for about two years, and she called me one weekend in almost a panic, and I answered the phone and I said, "What's going on? What's happening?" And she just happens to be African-American, and she said, "Chris, I'm going to text you a picture of me, and I want you to let me know if it's okay." I said, "Okay," and I thought it was--I thought it had more to do with clothing that she was wearing. She texted me a picture of her wearing her natural hair.Zach: Oh, wow.Chris: Wearing her natural hair, and she said, "Is it okay if I show up to work on Monday without my wigs?" And I said to her--and I'm not gonna use her name 'cause I don't want to embarrass her on this podcast, but I said, "Oh, my God." I said, "You look beautiful." I said, "You look like my sister. You look like my daughter. You look like my mother. You look like my friend. You look like the person who is my partner at work, and I love your authentic self." I said, "Do not ever feel like you have to cover who you are to show up at work." She says, "Well, I just wasn't sure if it was appropriate," and I told her--I said, "You are beautiful as you are. Please show up just like the picture has you," and again, all she did was allow her hair to be natural, and it was just curly, a little kinky, but it was the cutest, most beautiful picture I have ever seen, and since time she has worn her natural hair every day of the week.Zach: That's beautiful, yeah.Chris: Exactly. I could not make this story up. So as a senior leader, your job, your accountability, is to create a safe space so that people who are different can actually show up as themselves. The third piece that I would talk to you a little bit about is called accountability or change management, and when I say change management/accountability, what that to me says is that's, again, the job of the senior leaders in the organization, and that has more to do with if they show up as what I call Pepsi perfect, then they have already set the standard. If they do not or are not willing to show any humility or vulnerability, then no one else will feel like they can make mistakes or be vulnerable. They set the stage, the culture, for the organization and how the organization is going to evolve, and when they believe that they have to be perfect or show up perfect or set requirements such that there can be no mistakes, then you get very unauthentic, unengaged people showing up. The last piece of your question was methodology, and "Chris, how do you think we can use--what methodology have you used to try to create this environment of safety, this culture of inclusion and the ability for people to show up authentically?" And I'll tell you, it starts at the neurological level, and that is it has everything to do with your ability to articulate who you really are, and I call that story-telling. And the reason why I call it story-telling is because there is actually a neuroscience change that happens in your brain when you hear a person's story. When you take the time to understand a person's background, when you take the time to understand what has gotten a person to where they are in life, you change yourself. The reason why you change is for two things actually. One, the reason you change is because your brain doesn't know the difference between an experience and a story. So if I tell you a--if I tell you about a story, it is the same thing as if you were to experience it yourself. If I talked to you about my story of growing up in Cleveland, Ohio, and basically having to take two buses and a train to get to school every day and some of the experiences that I had going through, you know, high school and college, after I finished my story, Zach, you will neurologically change, because your body--your brain doesn't know the difference between my story and you actually experiencing some of that yourself, and so you get this flood of hormones that go through your body which actually change the neuro-receptors in your brain and make--because your brain has this thing called plasticity, you actually change. You feel different about me, and the reason why you feel different about me is because you see a part of you in me. Because it may be a completely different experience that I had in high school or college or even in the work environment, but as I tell you my story, you see yourself in me, and it brings you and I together. And it's not just you and I, it's me and the CEO. It's me and the chief marketing officer. It's me and the chief operating officer. So as opposed to that person or those people relying heavily on what they physically see when I walk into the room, when I tell them my story and I learn their stories, they can no longer look at me the same way because they have neurologically changed. We have created relationship where was none before.Zach: Wow.Chris: Yeah.Zach: [both laugh] Hold on. You know what I like about you, Chris? Well, I like a lot of things about you, but I like the way that you be--you be hitting, like--you be hitting [?] bars, and then you'll be like, "Yeah." Like, "That was fire and I know it. React to that." [both laugh] No, no, no. There's so much there, and I think--first of all, we're probably gonna--we're definitely gonna have to have a part two to this podcast because I want to get deeper. At the same time I don't want us to go have a two-hour podcast, but I do want to follow-up on something. So then when you're talking about creating these--like, sharing these stories and making these connections, you know, what are ways that black and brown professionals coming into an organization can facilitate that in a way that manages up? Like, what are ways that they could do that and help move the needle forward in their favor? What are ways that they could--they could share their stories and create those connections that would support and help them in their careers?Chris: God, that's a great question. So I'm gonna use a term which is based on education, which I told you at first that education does not necessarily change you, but I want to use this term from education 'cause you can start using it and applying it in your day-to-day. And it's a whole study and science around this thing called emotional intelligence, okay? So emotional intelligence, a quick definition of what it is - it's just your ability to take everything that's going on today in your life, Zach, everything that happened, you know, this morning--you know, you, you know, getting out of bed at a certain time, having to, you know, get certain things done, worrying about certain other things that probably lingered from the weekend--your ability to take all of those things that are just clawing and drawing at your attention and put them to the background and focus on Chris during this podcast. Your ability to do that is the quick definition of what emotional intelligence is. It's all of our ability to take everything that's going on in our lives and put it as a backdrop and to be present and able to listen to and serve the person who is sitting in front of us. So taking ourselves and putting ourselves secondary to another human being, but how does emotional intelligence actually help us as we're trying to create these inclusive organizations, to your point or your question, "How do we manage up?" We do it by being emotionally intelligent, and I'll give you a little bit more definition about how that application actually works at work. First of all and foremost, emotional intelligence is the best-correlated skill set to career advancement that there is. Let me pause and say that one more time. Emotional intelligence has the greatest correlation to career advancement than anything else. It is higher than IQ. You may get a job because of a high IQ. You get promoted because of a high EQ, and in this case EQ is emotional intelligence. And so how does that show up and how does that work? It works like this. As you get into an organization--and let's just say that you are different from an ethnicity or from a race-based perspective--first of all, all eyes are on you, and you probably know that if you've been employed by any of the major Fortune 1500 companies in this country, and because all eyes are on you, you get a lot of exposure that you had not even really anticipated or asked for, but the way you manage that from an emotional intelligence perspective is that you spend all of your time trying to find out and figure out what is going on with other individuals and people around you. One of the first things I did when I came to Vizient seven years ago--this is the truth--is that I went up to the CEO--first of all, I didn't take the job until I got a chance to meet the CEO, and I made that a prerequisite before I even came to the organization because I knew that the CEO creates the culture, and I wanted to figure out exactly what type of culture he had created. The first meeting that I had with him, the first thing that we talked about was his dress, the way he dressed, and the reason why we talked about the way he dressed is because he dressed the way I had always wanted to dress. It was very colorful. He had--you know, custom jeans on. He had designer shoes on. I mean, even to this day I can't afford everything that he wore, but it was so well put together that our first conversation was around his dress. I then wanted to understand how did he progress through the organization, so we had a really long conversation about the fact that he started out as an analyst, you know, 30 something odd years ago and then eventually was promoted up through the ranks of CEO. I found out about his wife and her background and the fact that she started out as a CPA. I also had many, many conversations with him about his son. He only has one son, and his son at the time was just about to enter college, and he had an incredible attraction to African art. I also found out that he spent a lot of time in New Mexico, and the reason why he spent a lot of time in New Mexico is because 1. it gave him a chance to get away from Texas, and 2. he was able to basically walk down the street and people really not know who he was or what he did. So he could kind of not have to be a CEO for those periods of time where he got a chance to get away. The reason why I tell you this story is because I immersed myself in understanding who he is, how he thought, how he worked, what was important to him, what his likes were and what his dislikes were, and as I did that, as I immersed in his life, he then paid the same respect to me. He paid the same respect to me, because he began asking questions about me and my story and what brought me to where I was in my career, in my life, in my work and everything else, and we built a very strong relationship. I'm gonna pause on that word relationship, because a lot of times the things that hold us back in corporate America, especially if we show up either from a gender difference or from an ethnicity difference, is that we don't take the time to form those relationships, and they have to be formed very selflessly. Very purposefully but very selflessly. You cannot walk into a relationship and expect a person to just automatically, you know, ask you about your family or your spouse or your education or anything else like that, even though that's a big part of your story. You have to first start out by asking them about themselves. I always tell people when they're about to go to an interview or if they're about to, you know, have a first conversation with another human being, and I tell them, "Use the 80/20 rule," and the 80/20 rule says that you should only talk 20% of the time, because when you're talking, you're not listening. When you're talking, you're not able to hear the story of the other person who is in front of you, who emotional intelligence tells you should be the center of your attention for that interaction. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense. For sure, for sure. So let me ask you this, because I'd like to get, you know, your prediction. Based on your expertise as an I&D subject matter expert, like, what is the future of I&D if it stays its current course?Chris: Yeah. I will tell you if it stays its current course--we've seen the current course trajectory for inclusion and diversity over the last 50+ years. We still have the same representation of minorities in CEO positions and board director positions and females in CEO positions and board director positions that we've had for the last, you know, 30+ years. That course has not changed. We have the same make-up as far as individuals who are moving into C-level jobs. We've got the same make-up that we've had, you know, for the last 35, 40+ years. That trajectory has already been put in place, and it continues to be there even though the demographics of this country have completely changed. As a matter of fact, if you're under the age of 18 right now, the majority in this country have actually become the minority and the minority have become the majority, but it doesn't mean--because the numbers are there, it doesn't mean that there will be change in organizations and corporations and boards of directors and people making key decisions. If you look across the world, we see where that phenomena has happened in other countries, where the minorities in a country are actually still in powerful positions over the majority of people who actually happen to be part of the organization or the countries, because they have not changed. They have not understood how to change the mindsets and really tap into the value of the vast majority of people who actually inhabit the place that they're at geographically. So the current trajectory has already proven out that it will remain the way it is, and the bad side, the down side of that trajectory, is that we don't have the ability to tap into one of our greatest resources, which is the true, rich diversity of people that walk into organizations every day, that walk into churches every day, that walk past you down the streets every day.Zach: Hm. That's a heavy--that's heavy, but this has been a great discussion, Chris, and, you know, before we wrap up, I'd like to know - are there any other projects that you're working on?Chris: Yes. Yeah, so the one--the latest project that is just unfolding at the conclusion here of 2018 has been a small I'll just call it boutique consulting firm that I just decided I'm going to create, because I don't see the current trajectory changing, and I said, "You know what? At the end of the day, one person can make a difference if they just figure it out and start doing it in a very meaningful way," and so I just started a small firm called Storytellers Consulting, and Storytellers Consulting has a lot to do with what we just discussed on this podcast, and that is teaching executives how to tell their stories and how to bring the stories out of the people who they work with and how to create inclusive cultures and how to create safe spaces and how to evolve organizations into becoming more inclusive. If there is nothing that is done at the neurological level, change will not happen, period. So here's my final thought on how change happens and why I know for sure this is true. So January. January is the most important month of the year for a lot of people, because they make a lot of promises to themselves. Most of us--most of us make promises like, "I'm going to lose that 10, 15, 20 pounds that has burdening me for the last, you know, 15 years of my life." That resolution lasts 'til about February 15th. I always give people right up 'til about Valentine's Day, and then the behaviors go back to what they used to be, right? And the reason why the behaviors go back to what they used to be is because change management requires for people to actually change neurologically, and the only way that that happens--let's call it for the sake of losing weight--the only way that you're gonna physically be able to lose weight and keep it off is if something triggers you to know that my behavior has to change or else there's either a consequence or else I see the benefit so much that I'm not gonna go back to my bad habits, and for a lot of people, those changes happen only when you get burdened with something like--something bad is gonna happen to you if you don't lose weight. Like, you get a call from the doc and they tell you the consequence of you not losing the weight. So short of that--because most people are not faced with that--short of that, we've got to change neurologically, which means that in order for me to physically make sure that you're going to stick to your commitments, I've got to explain to you in a way that makes so much sense that you are not gonna go back to your bad habits regardless of the temptation. The reason why this is so important is because, again, for most of us, we get off the diets by February 15th, and the reason being is because we've done nothing to convince ourselves that we have to be on that diet or we have to change our way of living. In diversity and inclusion, that neuroscience change starts with creating a relationship. The same exact thing would happen if you were to--as opposed to telling someone else that you're gonna lose a whole bunch of weight, if you signed up and created, let's say, a partnership with someone and said, "You know what? For the next year, you and I, three times a week, are gonna meet at the gym. We're gonna go together. I'm gonna hold you accountable, you're gonna hold me accountable, and we are going to change our lives together." When there is that partnership, that relationship, that neurological change inside of your head, inside of your body, it has a lot better of an opportunity of sticking, and so that's exactly what we want to do with Storytellers Consulting. That's exactly what we want to do when it comes to change management just in general across the country.Zach: This has been a phenomenal conversation. I just--I really appreciate it, Chris. Before we let you go--I know you just shared some--first of all, you've been dropping sauce this entire conversation, but do you have any final thoughts or shout-outs?Chris: Yeah. I guess the final thought or shout-out I have is 1. I really want to just let people know that one, there is no criticism associated with, you know, where we are today in this--in this country relative to diversity and inclusion. I do not feel like it is anyone's fault. I don't want anyone to, you know, hear this podcast and believe that, Zach, you or I are saying that there are so many social injustices going on in this country that, you know, this is just a throwaway or there is someone to truly blame for everything. That is not the message whatsoever. The message is that most of our current existence, most of our decisions, most of our behaviors, they are so subconscious, unconscious, subliminal, that we're not even aware of it a lot of times, and so all we're doing, all we're saying, all we're advocating for is for people to actually do things that are more consciously driven, and when you do things that are more consciously driven and there's a motivation and a methodology for you to do that, then we can actually make change, and that is exactly what we're advocating for, is that we just really think about this from a historical perspective, realizing certain things have just not been that effective, you know? The legislation that we did back in the '60s and, you know, all of the affirmative action pushes that we've done through the '70s and '80s, you know, as great as they've been, you know, to make people feel better, they really have not necessarily touched on the--on the real metrics associated with businesses and corporations in this country, and our organizations are missing out on an incredible opportunity to tap into what is now going to become the majority population in this country. And so again, my shout-out [?] to take a very introspective look and approach at what are we personally doing right now to build relationships that actually go beyond our racial differences, go beyond our gender differences and create true, meaningful, authentic relationships with other human beings by getting to know them at a neurological level. A lot of times, that is done through stories and through the art of storytelling.Zach: Chris, we definitely appreciate you being on the Living Corporate podcast today, and we consider you a friend of the show, and we hope to have you back, man.Chris: Thank you so much, man. It has been a pleasure and a gift and a blessing. Thank you.Zach: Amen, man. Peace.Chris: Amen. All righty, be well.

Zach and Ade celebrate Living Corporate's 1-year anniversary in this very special episode! They reflect on everything that's led up to this point, read a few user reviews, and so much more. Ade also shares her personal journey navigating the STEM field for the first time.Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, listen, it's a really--what's the word? A special episode, and I feel like there should be, like, some "Tony! Toni! Toné!" playing. Ade: Why though?Zach: It's our anniversary. Not you and I. Well, in certain ways, yeah. Really the anniversary--yeah, but the anniversary of the show, right? Like, we've crossed the 1-year mark as a podcast, as an organization. That's pretty cool, right? Ade: It's pretty dope. I think this is the longest-running creative project I've ever been involved with, which is saying something, so shout-out to us. Zach: Man, super agree. Definitely shout-out to us, and yes, it's definitely been--definitely the longest engagement--I keep on using all of these consultancy words, and it's funny because my boss at my job keeps on talking to me--shout-out Juliet. I see you. Keeps telling me not to use all these consultancy words, but see, what's hard for, like, me to articulate at work is that I genuinely like words, but I'm still kind of--you know, I don't want to say, you know, [Ur-ish?].Ade: I know--I know what you're getting at.Zach: You know what I'm saying, but at the same time though, right, I just like words, but they don't get the "ish" side of me at work because of--because of reasons, right? So it's tough, but anyway, yeah. This is the longest project that I've been a part--creative project that I've been a part of as well, and it's dope. Like, I think it's crazy because if you look, like, over this past year, like, you'll see, like--I think what should make both of us proud is, like, a year of consistent engagement though. Like, it's not like, "Oh, we did it," and then we stopped, and then we did it and we stopped. Like, it's been a year of consistency, you know what I'm saying? Ade: Which is really a shout-out to you, because goodness knows that consistency is something that I lack in spades, but yeah. Without you there would have been very little consistency on my part, because yikes.Zach: Nah, nah, nah.Ade: We'll get into that.Zach: Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that, but nah, actually, I'ma tell you, the crazy thing is that it was--what I was able to see in you and, like, the potential of this space that pushed me to be, like, really aggressive, right? And attentive and, like, not--and kind of unrelenting and neurotic in how we would, like--Ade: I don't know if that gives the right connotation or that has the right--Zach: No, it's conno--no, but I'm saying, like, there were times where I'd know that, like, I would get on your nerves. Like, I'd be like, "Ade, we gotta record. Ade, we gotta record. Let's go. Let's go," and, like, we're recording, like, multiple episodes at a time, and just me working, you know, just being, like, obsessive. Like, there's a certain level of that, right, that was involved in this, and I think when I talk to people who created something and are building something, like, there's a certain lev--like, a certain bit of it. Like, not to the point where it's toxic, but a certain level of just obsessive, like, it's all you're thinking about and doing for a certain season of your life, at least just to get it going. And I don't feel like it's like that now. I feel like we've kind of--like, we've found a certain pace and rhythm and sweet spot, but to get something off the ground takes a lot of effort.Ade: And I think for me that actually works for who I am as a person. I like immersion, and I've found that with anything, I have to live, breathe, swim, eat, everything consume a particular energy if that's what I need to focus on at that time, otherwise it's never gonna get done, and I'm also not the sort of person who gets annoyed by persistence, because it's something that I'm seeking out. It actually attracts me in a way to all of the things that I want, and that people who--in places where I find consistency and persistence and passion, those are the things that inspire me, those are the things that have brought me back to Living Corporate, even when I have not been in the most ideal situations. Because it's very easy to fall into the trap of complacence or just being like, "You know what? Everything is overwhelming, and I would like to just bury myself under the earth's crust and just, like, lay here for a second."Zach: That's real.Ade: But I've found that on the other side of that discomfort is everything that you're looking for, and you just have to keep pushing to get at it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and I feel the same way. And it's funny because, like, when I was talking to Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips--and this was, like, a while ago, but, like, he gave advice on the mic and off the mic, and we were talking about the fact that he said, "Man, you know, the biggest advice I can give you is just to keep going," he said, because so many people will get started with podcasting and, like, you know, they'll, like, do a couple shows and then they'll--you know, they'll get tired and be like, "Oh, I'll catch up next week. Oh, I'll catch up next week," and, like, you look up and they've been gone for, like, three months, or, like, people will, like, really put a lot of effort on the front end to, like, promote the podcast, and then you look up and it's, like--it's only been, like, two months and they're done. And I know for me, part of the reason so far--and again, it's only been a year, right? It's not like--we have time. We're still really babies, right? Like, we have tons--we have a long way to go. [laughs] But I know for me it's--like, the biggest fear kind of going into this was that, like, we would start, and we would, like, start off really big, and then we would fizzle out. So, like, I'm just really excited and thankful that we're here and, honestly, you and I, like, we're kindred spirits in a lot of different ways. Like, 'cause everybody doesn't like someone who's, like, persistent and, like will follow up and, like, hold you accountable and be like, "Hey, let's go." Right? Like, people don't like that, so the fact that, like, your vibe resonates with that is dope, because it's not common. So I'm really excited and thankful, like, for you to be here for real. Ade: Thank you. And just the last thought that I have on that is that I've found--and hopefully this helps somebody, but I have found that when I reach the valleys of my energy reserves and I'm completely tapped out, it helps having somebody like you, almost like a body double, because--I was gonna use a phrase.Zach: Nah, say it. [laughs]Ade: Ain't no punk in my blood. So I will be damned if anybody else, like, next to me is outworking me and we have the same level of commitment, so if you're willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, I'm willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, and if you are willing to cram yourself into a closet space to record, guess what? I too am willing to cram myself into a closet space to record, right? So there's something to be said for having a partner in your commitment who's willing to, like, go the distance with you, and you can sort of measure yourself and keep pace with that person. Not necessarily saying that you have to be down on yourself when you're not capable of being where they're at, but it's almost like having a guidepost as to where you need to be, and even when your heart isn't in it, you're able to, like, mirror somebody else so that at the very least you're going through the motions until your brain remembers what it feels like to win, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it does, it does, and it's so interesting, right, because--the last part you said, like, really hit me, 'cause, like you said, "when your heart isn't in it"--I think a lot of times, like, when we do things it's like, "Man, if I don't--if I don't really feel like doing it, then I'm not gonna do it," and it's like, "Man, there's a lot of stuff that I don't feel like doing that I just gotta do." So it's just really interesting, like, when you said, you know, "when your heart isn't in it." And it's--like, it's really important because a lot of times when you're doing something, especially if you're trying to do something and build something over time, you don't always feel like doing it, right? But, like, you just gotta do it. I mean, like, the easiest example is working out. I've been working crazy, so I haven't, and that's an excuse, but I haven't been getting up like I want to that I budgeted in my time to actually work out in the morning. Like, I get up. I have an alarm that goes off at 5:30 in the morning. That's for me to work out for 30 minutes every day. I have, like, a kettle bell. I'm, like, supposed to be doing this kettle bell routine, and I don't always feel like doing it, but, like, I'm not gonna get the results I want if I don't get up anyway, right? And it's like--Ade: A word.Zach: A word. [both laugh] A whole word, but it's true, and, like, you know--Ade: You are dragging me in my hunched-over position and this, like, [inaudible] potbelly I have going on right now.Zach: I'm dragging myself, nah. I mean--just shoot, listen. See, this is what happened. So I dropped weight, and, like--so now I'm able to look down--I dropped weight. Now I'm able to look down and see my belt buckle, so I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I can see myself." Like, "I'm good."Ade: Okay...Zach: Right? But it's like, "Nah." Like, there's more goals than just, like, not being able to see your shoes. Like, you should dream bigger than that. So there's another word for you. Some of y'all are just shoe-starers. You need to be bigger dreamers than that. Keep going. Keep driving.Ade: Drag me. Drag me.Zach: [laughs] Man. So while we were talking, right, I had, like, other things that, like, popped up in my head, all right? So tell me if this is, like, a cheesy joke. So first of all, like, we're not--this is not the topic of [inaudible]--Ade: It is.Zach: It is? Okay. Well, I'm gonna say it anyway. So you were talking about being in the closet to record. Ade: Yeah.Zach: Okay. How crazy would it have been had you been in the closet to record the episode--and I think you know what I'm about to say--Ade: I do. All you had to say was closet. No, please. Finish.Zach: Okay. How crazy--[both laugh] how crazy would it have been if you were in the closet to record the episode of being LGBT at work? That would have been nuts.Ade: You are childish, number one. Number two, that would have been brilliant actually, 'cause I think I was still in the apartment with that alarm that wouldn't quit.Zach: Yes, yes. I remember that spot.Ade: I just want to say that if y'all have been here for this long and you've heard me through the apartment with the alarm that wouldn't quit, the house in D.C. where you may have heard random gunshots in the neighborhood, the apartment in Tysons Corner with all of the, like, zooming cars or that one day I was in the golf room and that one guy had a vengeance against golf balls.Zach: He was knocking the mess out those balls.Ade: He was not--like, just straight up assaulting golf balls, and I was concerned. Shout-out to you. We here. We made it. Zach: We made it, dogg. We're here, and like, yeah. So anyway, I'm just thankful for you. I'm thankful for this. I'm thankful for us. I'm thankful for JJ. It's crazy 'cause we didn't even--like, we didn't let any air horns off. Hopefully JJ--hey, JJ. Listen, man. We're not gonna get sued. Just go ahead and put "Tony! Toni! Toné!" at the beginning of this. Maybe let it loop in the background actually. We ain't--Ade: You know, I actually think this is an occasion for celebratory gunshots. What do you think?Zach: Yes. Hey, JJ. Let them thangs go, bro. [he does]Ade: Brrap-brrap.Zach: [laughs] And some air horns. Put 'em in right here. [JJ does] Yes. Let 'em--yes, man. We out here, man. It's been a year. I want to talk about these stats real quick, man.Ade: Aye.Zach: In our first year we've had, like, 40,000 downloads, fam.Ade: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: That's not bad. Like, for a grassroots podcast with no--Ade: Okay, first of all, don't give me "that's not bad." That's dope as hell. I just--I think you should celebrate everyone. One of the things that I'm taking away from the situations that I've left behind is that celebratory Milly Rocks are an important part of your growth and your development as a person, because celebrating the little wins and recognizing all of your small accomplishments rolls into the part of you that persists, because failure's really demoralizing, and it sucks, but when you're able to, like, go back to past situations and identify all of the ways in which you won and didn't even realize, recognize, or celebrate those things, you're able to be like, "Well, damn. I really am that [person]." Zach: [laughs] That was super funny. Hey, Aaron. [that's me] So look. You know, we've talked about Aaron in our past, and again, listen, I've--I've called our allies Buckys and White Wolves, and the reason why, for those who don't know--Ade: And don't forget Winter Soldiers.Zach: Oh, and Winter Soldiers. And the reason why, if y'all know anything about Marvel, y'all know that the Winter Soldier's name was Bucky, okay, and that the Wakandans called Bucky "the White Wolf" in Wakandan. So Aaron--Ade: By the way, I heard that attempt at an accent. It, uh...Zach: I really--but this is the funny thing about that.Ade: You've been practicing, huh?Zach: No. So this is the thing--actually I started and I said, "Ooh, this is terrible," and I stopped in the middle, right? I did not--I did not complete it. But anyway, Aaron is a--he's a Winter Soldier, okay, and he's also the person--when you look at, like, all of our social media stuff--and we've talked about him before. We've joked that he's our diversity hire, and so Aaron, when you do the transcript for this and Ade said, "I'm that person," make sure that you put person in brackets so the real ones know what you really meant. [laughs, and done]Ade: All of that exposition...Zach: All of that exposition just for that one piece of direction.Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And it's funny 'cause he's gonna listen, and he's gonna be like, "Oh, yeah," and he's gonna do it. [they laugh, and that's exactly what happened] Oh, my goodness gracious. Ade: It's been a year of, like, deep sighs with you. Just, like, a--Zach: It's been a year of deep sighs, but look--but, like, you've gotten your [inaudible] out. [laughs]Ade: [utters the deepest sigh ever] A deep Negro spiritual sigh.Zach: A Negro spiritual sigh?Ade: Or it's an Issa Rae. [https://twitter.com/issarae/status/918611371805282305?lang=en]Zach: All the--all the Dad jokes and not nan a child around here. Pure Dad jokes.Ade: Look. Listen, it just means that you are well-prepared.Zach: I'm big ready. [both laugh] But nah. So, you know, I'm kind of at a loss of words because I'm just thinking about--I'm really thinking about what it took to make a year of content. Like, a year of content, and we've been working. Like, we've had full-time jobs, as consultants no less. Like, man, talk about that. Like, you have a whole new consulting job.Ade: 60-hour weeks. I counted it. I counted and averaged my working hours, and I just want to say that whoever said consulting was an easy gig... you are a liar.Zach: Oh, no. They lied. They lied. Well, this is the thing. It's easy I guess if you trash and [in a hushed whisper] if you're not black or brown. [laughs] Can we be honest?Ade: You know, I mean... all these facts. Like, I don't get to be mediocre at my job.Zach: I've never--yo, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've never--[laughs] No, no, no. So let me be clear. I am not saying that--well, I am saying that white privilege makes your job easier. I'm definitely saying that for you, yes. So if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. Be offended. It's cool. [both laugh] What I'm not saying is that, like, everybody who is white thinks the job is easy, 'cause I do know there are some majority people out here who are working very hard in consulting. Like, they work super hard, but every time I meet somebody and they say their job is easy, like, I've never met a black or brown person who says consulting is easy ever. Have you?Ade: Absolutely not.Zach: Like, never ever. Never.Ade: Ever.Zach: Eva eva, but the thing about it is--what I will say to that--you were talking about how many hours you work. So I don't want to say how many hours I work because there are people who, like, mentor me who listen to this podcast. If I told them how many hours I work, they would coach me. They'd be like, "Hey, Zach. You need to relax. You shouldn't be working that hard." So I'm not gonna say that, but I will--Ade: So maybe you need to relax and you shouldn't be working that hard.Zach: I mean, maybe so, but the point is, like, it's been a grind, right? Like, it's work. It's been work--like, we've been working. We've been working full-full-full-full-time. You don't really take a lot of vacation. I don't take a lot of vacation.Ade: Lol at a lot of vacation. Try any vacation.Zach: Lol at the word "vacation."Ade: Right? And obviously that's not to, like, compare struggles or anything like that.Zach: Definitely not.Ade: It's just, like, trying to give an accurate picture of, you know, just how exhausting this past year has been as well. Like, and as much as it's been a year of amazing triumphs and just wins that we didn't see coming, I'm working on a sleep deficit here, even on the weekends, and that's not something I'm trying to continue for very long, because I understand that sleep is a necessary and essential component of life, and I'm even not trying to encourage the culture that says that in order to, you know, be a good worker you have to show up to work on Mondays talking about how sleep-deprived you are. That's trash.Zach: That's toxic. That's super toxic.Ade: That is trash. Your brain needs sleep. But I also recognize that there are periods in your life where you have to take the L, whether it's the social L, sometimes the sleep L, to get to where you need to be in the long run, and so that's the time that we're investing now for later, and I'm sure all of my full-time workers/part-time hustlers understand what we're talking about.Zach: Straight up. I mean, this is the thing. I just don't know of any, like, entrepreneurs, full-time or part-time, who have made something pop, made the shake, without, like, really, really grinding, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you should be working yourself ragged all of the time, but there are gonna be some late nights. And, like, beyond you working late, I would say heart--more than that, you're gonna have to think a lot. Like, you should probably be more mentally exhausted than you are physically exhausted if you're really grinding at this entrepreneurship thing, because it just takes a lot of mental effort, like, to think through and strategize on how you're really gonna get stuff done.Ade: Right?Zach: Think through how you're gonna use your time, right? 'Cause you can't create more time, and you need sleep, 'cause it would be trash if we got on here talking about you don't need to go to sleep when we be talking about drinking water. Matter of fact, since we brought up drinking water, go ahead--I just hiccuped 'cause I need some water. [both laugh] Grab yourself the nearest cup of water, go to the tap--unless you are in...Ade: Washington, D.C.?Zach: Unless you're in Washington, D.C. or any of these other--if you're in a poor black or brown community. Because of the way that racism is set up and white supremacy is set up, your water probably tastes disgusting. So hopefully--Ade: Not only tastes disgusting, it probably has actual contaminants in it. So just don't do that. [inaudible]. Just drink some water.Zach: So don't--yeah, don't do that part, but maybe go get some bottled water if you can afford it, because the way that, again, white supremacy is set up and capitalism inherently built to destroy you and us. But, you know, if you can drink some clean water, go ahead and drink some right now. That's all I was trying to say. It got kind of dark, but I meant it.Ade: All of them caveats, and I just finished a bottle of water while you were speaking. I needed that.Zach: All of them caveats--all of them caveats. [laughs] But nah, for real though. You've got to take care--you've got to take care of yourself. So let's talk about this. Can we talk a little bit about, like, your journey with the STEM and what you've been learning?Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay.Ade: This is big trash. [both laugh] No, actually this is top two most challenging things I've ever had to do in my life, and this is not number two. I spent some time thinking through how I've been taught to think about myself as a learner, how I've been taught to think about myself in relation to the world around me. I was one of those kids who always picked up concepts quickly at incredibly high levels of abstraction. I could have--and I was very, very young doing this--I remember that when I was a kid, my great uncle, [inaudible], would sit me down in the morning and hand me the morning newspaper--and I'm, like, five years old during this--and we're just reading through the paper in the morning, and we'd say--and we'd talk about it, and he'd give me a little cup of coffee to drink with him. It's probably his fault I'm short, because everybody else in my family is tall, but we'd sit and talk through these incredibly abstract ideas. We're talking through military coups, we're talking through changes in, like, global structures. I'm being more complimentary of my ability to hold a conversation with a grown man who was in the military about these ideas, but I say that to say that I was always socialized to think of myself as an intelligent person. When you are teaching yourself an entirely new body of knowledge that you've never quite interacted with in the same way--I mean, I took, like, Computer 101 class, so I knew, like, what binary code was or what binary was or what the CPU is. I actually had an interest when I was an undergrad in building my own computer from scratch. I really wanted to, like, put everything together because I thought that was really, really cool. I'm not a very tactile person, so I had never worked with anything in that way before. So those were entirely new concepts to me. I don't think I've ever felt so defeated as trying to understand what a four loop or what a wild loop is and why I would use it, or what data structures are, or what an algorithm fundamentally tries to do, and over the course of the last year I have, like, doubted my intelligence. I have sincerely believed that my brain was just broken, and I've just discovered things that were patched over in an education system that wasn't designed to serve me in the way that my brain functions. And I can go on rants for days about this, but I [inaudible] believe that should I ever be blessed with children I'm not letting them be educated in the United States of America, certainly not in the public education systems in which I was raised, in which I was educated, because those systems don't teach you how to think critically or think creatively about problems. They teach you how to think about solutions.Zach: Man. That's so true.Ade: And frankly, that does you a disservice, because one, you need to think about the problem, not necessarily the solution, because through thinking through the problem you are hitting on and thinking through critically all of the ways in which the problem is structured and you're examining your biases about these different problems. Also the fundamental work of thinking through a problem requires you to think through other perspectives, and I think it gives you a level of empathy for others that we don't necessarily get to learn in traditional educational structures. And I like numbering thoughts because I lose track of things really easily, but now I've lost track of several other thoughts that I had. But the point of what I'm trying to say is that I've learned so much about myself. I've learned about learning. I've learned that I'm not incapable of learning. I might be slower at picking up technical thoughts and high-level extraction in the way that other people may pick them up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a failure or that I'm broken. And I also--I do this thing where I don't quite give credence to the context and circumstances of my situation, and for those of you who are listening, I've been through some ups and downs, and I found myself recently comparing myself to other people, maybe in the meet-ups that I would attend or just--the D.C. tech circuit isn't that large, and just struggling to articulate why it was taking so much longer than other people to get to a certain level in my education, and I had to give myself a break, recognize not only that I was working with an incomplete set of cards, but also recognize that I'm not working on anybody else's timeline but my own. [? will say (something in a foreign language,)] which means that we don't work by somebody else's watch, right? Like, we're not working on the same timeline, and that's okay. So yes, I've learned a wealth of things about myself, about the world, about learning. Did you know that actually--this may or may not work for you, but it's really helpful when you learn things to not stack your learning every single day. Zach: Nah.Ade: Part of what I struggled with was that I thought I have to crank at this five hours every day forever, and actually if you space out your learning--so doing two days on, one day off, then one day on, one day off, and then three days on, it actually gives your brain time to rest, time to create the synapses that allow you to build the blocks of understanding, and it's a lot easier for you to learn when you are doing, like, three fundamental things. When you are sleeping, which I didn't do for a very long time, when you are working out--because exercising is actually a way of enriching your brain--and when you are giving yourself on and off periods of learning. So it's almost like you feed your brain the information, and then you give yourself a break so that your brain can make sense of the information that you just provided it. Zach: But you know what though? I understand that. That makes sense to me, like, in principle, because when you think about, like, working out any other part of your body, like lifting weights, you have to, like, give yourself time to heal, right? Like you'll lift--you're not gonna work out the same muscle group every single day. Like, you're gonna--your upper-body one day. You can work out your legs the next day. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not gonna just do--you're gonna give yourself time to heal, and, like, that's really interesting though, because when you think about learning and the way that we talk about learning, it's often in the context of, like, "Man, you just gotta repeat, repeat, repeat," like, over and over and over and over, and the other thing that you said, which is so crazy, and something just hit me just now. You said--like, 'cause public schools don't teach us to, like, really talk about problems, they talk about just, like, creating solutions, and we kind of--like, we praise that, right? Like, as a larger society. We praise not being problem-focused, right? Being solution-oriented and, like, thinking through actionable items to solve things, and it's like, man, there's value in, like, slowing down and really understanding the problem.Ade: Right.Zach: And, like, really ruminating on the problem, and it's funny because the next thing you said, which also hit me, was focusing on the problem can really help you grow in empathy. And, you know, I pride myself--I call myself an empathetic person, but I'm not really good at, like, slowing down and focusing on problems and, like, really, like, thinking through and, like, cycling problems over and over and, like, being like, "Okay, what's really--" Like, really, really slowing down and thinking about the problem, and that's feedback I've gotten on my job recently, and I had to--like, for me, like, that was just a gut-check, you just saying that, 'cause I'm like, "Dang, am I really as empathetic a leader as I think I am if I can't slow down and focus on the problems?"Ade: Right.Zach: So that's real. So look, and all of the things you talked about, all of the things you've been learning and you've been picking up, you didn't talk about why you're doing it. Like, what are you trying to do?Ade: At first it was solely because I wrote this list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday. I was going through this period--right before my 23rd birthday I went through this terrible break-up. It was with this person that I had a relatively toxic relationship with, but I was trying to find the win. I was trying to sift through the relationship and find all of the bits and pieces that added to my life, because I don't necessarily believe that I have experiences for the sake of those experiences or the sake of just having a terrible thing and then getting past it or whatever. I think that I need to learn from everything that happens to me, even if the lesson is "Wow, that person was terrible. Never again." So in compiling this list of promises to myself, I decided I was gonna learn a new thing, and I had just gone to a class that is held here in D.C. called Hear Me Code, where in a fem-centered space, or for people who are feminine of center, you come in, you learn how to write basic lines of code--so you're not really creating a program. You're just learning how to write basic lines of code. The syntax of Python, which is a really, really easy language to read and conceptualize, and I was like, "That is so cool. I really like that. I'm gonna learn how to code." Knowing now what I wish I knew then, that was a really, really dumb thing to do, because when you create this abstract idea or this abstract goal, it's really, really difficult to hit your mark, right? How do you know that you've learned how to code? Could I technically print "Hello, World" to a console in, like, three different languages? Sure, I could. Four now, whatever, but have I reached the level of mastery that it requires to call myself a software engineer? No, I have not, and the gap between those two ideals is so extreme that I almost set myself up in not thinking through what that meant. It is this character-building exercise now for me in that because I'm having to think through all of these really, really difficult things and all of these really, really high-level concepts, it also almost forces me to daily reassess who I am as a person and what I am dedicated to conveying to myself about myself. Yeah, I hope that answered your question. I have a tendency to, like, ramble, which you can see in my code, but--[both laugh]Zach: We both do. Nah, [inaudible]--Ade: You know, but I'm trying to convey an idea here, dammit. [both laugh]Zach: No, no, no. It makes sense to me. I think--I think for me it's interesting because your reasoning and, like, passion behind it is much more mature and, like, what's the word? Just the desire for you to know yourself through what you're doing rather than you being like, "Oh, I want to do X, so I'm learning this," right? There's a story and there's a journey there. So no, it makes sense to me. It's cool, and it's just--you and I have talked about it offline, but I wanted to make sure our listeners kind of heard the "why" behind it. 'Cause we've alluded to you learning this and spending your weekends and your evenings studying and going to class. I wanted to make sure that people knew a little bit more, and I know we'll continue to share as your journey continues on. Let's do this. What else do we want to talk about? What we got? We got, like, about a little over 35, 36 minutes in. Do we want to do--let's read some of these reviews, yo.Ade: Okay. You're not seeing me. You may be hearing the ash on my hands, but this is the Birdman hand rub.Zach: I hear--I hear the [?]. How are your hands so small and so ashy? That's crazy.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow.Zach: That mug sound like *shaka-shaka-shaka*.Ade: That attacked my character.Zach: Shaka-shaka-shaka Khan.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.Zach: [laughs] That sounds--they're so ashy. Let me see--let me see.Ade: I just want you to know--nope. No, no. You don't need--you don't need to see. I washed--in my defense, dear listeners, I washed my hands before I got on this call because I have been dealing with a brood of approximately fifty-'leven children in this house all day, and, like, half of them were sick and gross. So I had to wash my hands.Zach: Oh, I feel that. That's crazy that you said "brood." Let me--but you know what though? We have these mics. The mics are pretty sensitive, so let me just see. Let me see, 'cause I just put lotion on my hands. My hands really--they should sound like two wet slices of ham rubbing together.Ade: Okay, yuck.Zach: [laughs] 'Cause that's how moist they are. So I said something moist--Ade: Mucho yuck.Zach: And then I said moist. Okay, here we go. Let me see. Nah, that sounded like a little bit of sandpaper running together as well. Okay.Ade: I didn't even hear anything. [same] This is trash.Zach: [laughs] Well, I can hear it in my mic. That's funny. Let me see. Hold on. Y'all hear that? No? [that time I did] Nothing?Ade: Nope.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. I'm moisturized over here, baby.Ade: Wow. So now I'm going to get on here sounding like Ashy Magoo.Zach: Not Ashy--not Ashy Magoo.Ade: There is--there is no justice in the world honestly.Zach: That's crazy. And can I keep it a buck with you? I haven't actually put lotion on my hands all day. I'm just naturally moist.Ade: All right. Okay, well, that's my time. I have to go. I must go. [?]Zach: [laughs] Let's go ahead and read some of these reviews.Ade: All right, bet.Zach: This one is from--first of all--hold on. Before I just get into reading reviews, right, let me put, like, an actual, like, intro and reason as to why we're doing this. We haven't read one review in the past year, and we have over 100--we have 127 reviews on iTunes, and then we have, like, a handful of other reviews, like, on our other spots where we publish our podcast, and so we just want to, like, thank and shout-out some of these reviews, man. So, like, I'ma read one, and then, Ade, I don't know if you have yours up, you want to read some, but I'ma start--Ade: I'm going there now.Zach: All right, dope. All right, so this one is called "A Breath of Fresh Air." That's the title, and it's from E from D.C. "Definitely a podcast worth listening to. Being a person of color in corporate is sometimes difficult to navigate because you may not know many others like you who have managed to lead a corporate job. You may be the first in your family working corporate, or you're just trying to figure out what your corporate identity is. Thank you for creating this podcast for us." Thank you, E from D.C. Shout-out to you. Thank you so much.Ade: Shout-out to you.Zach: Shout-out to you. Let me--let me read one more, and then I'ma let you go. This one--this one is from Jonathan Jones Speaks. "Built For This." "Their voices are made for podcasting." Uh-oh. "I love how you both feed on each other's energy, bringing on guests that add tangible insights and tangible instructions. Your stories are transparent and transformational. Continue to educate and elevate." Thank you, Jonathan Jones, from the Speak Your Success podcast. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.Ade: All right. So I'm gonna--I'm gonna go with two that are back-to-back. So the first one is from Lee Cee Dee [?] titled "Amazing Guests and Content." "For a podcast that's fairly new, Living Corporate came out the gate very strong." Thank you. "The topics are so relevant to working millennials, and the guests are amazing. The first episode will always be so memorable and poignant to me, but also check out the mental health and LGBT episode as good places to start." Thank you, Lee Cee Dee. Next one. This is from Mixed Girl Maine. The title starts, "This is for us, being corporate while." It reads, "Thank you for this podcast. I am a former senior [?] manager of HR and an operations manager in the tech field. Being both the only or one of the few [?] managers and typically the only woman in upper management, I have felt for many years there was no community for me." We got you, girl. "This podcast is my community. It speaks directly to me, my experiences, and since my corporate career ended last year with difficulty, I just wish I discovered this well before this week. Keep it up. This is amazing."Zach: Man, I love that. Like, we'll just stop right there. I love--I love the fact that we've created something that people actually listen to and actually find value in. Like, I could tear up. I could cry a little bit to be honest. Like, that's awesome.Ade: This--why haven't we done this before? I truly--Zach: 'Cause we're trash, Ade. [laughs] 'Cause we are wack.Ade: I've never, like, gone looking through--Zach: I've skimmed a few, but I haven't really taken the time to, like, read and [?] on some of these reviews. Like, these are beautiful. There are some others on here that are just so--and some of 'em are long.Ade: I love how Candice came in repping the gang. Like, she was like "gang gang" out here.Zach: She definitely came in gang gang gang. She said, "I might be biased 'cause it's my husband, but yo, this podcast is fire." I said, "Come on, baby. That's what I'm talking about." She's my peace and my reviews.Ade: Oh. Well, then. Look, listen, I hear you.Zach: The "be his peace," that mess gotta stop. I literally--I be wanting to throw stuff when I see those little posts.Ade: I just personally--all right, well, I'm just gonna leave that alone. I'm gonna leave that alone.Zach: [laughs] I saw somebody--so I'ma say--I'ma say this joke because I feel like--'cause we're essentially a D&I podcast. Well, really we're an I--we're an inclusion and diversity podcast, but anyway, that's for another time. I saw some post that say, "My Latinx ladies, instead of trying to Hispanics, you need to be Hispeace."Ade: Oh, my God. First of all...Zach: [laughs] I said, "First of all--"Ade: That is terrible.Zach: That is trash. I was like, "First of all--"Ade: Secondly, [?]. Be Hispanic.Zach: I said, "First of all, please be Hispanic." First of all, Hispanic is not a culture, but please embrace your Latinx roots, whatever those may be. No, you will not sacrifice to be that some dude's peace. No. Ade: So here's the funny thing.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Set his whole world on fire. I'm joking actually. [?]Zach: [laughs] Set his whole world on fire? That's super--so, like, do the opposite. Be his destruction in this mug. Wow. No, but, you know--Ade: Don't take my advice, y'all. I'm not straight. I have no relationship advice for anybody. All right, moving forward. JJ, cut all of that out.Zach: Moving forward. No, no. He's gonna keep it in. This is gonna be funny.Ade: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.Zach: So what else do we want to do here? So let's go ahead--you know what? You know, we ain't gotta give 'em everything. Let's stop. Let's stop right here, okay? I do have an announcement though before we get up out of here.Ade: Oh?Zach: Yep, yep, yep. So you've been rocking with us--if you've been rocking with us for any amount of time, you know that Living Corporate is not just a podcast. We actually have a blog. We have a newsletter. We have giveaways.Ade: All that.Zach: We have all of that. We have a lot of things going on, and I'm really excited to announce the fact that Living Corporate is now ready to expand our writing platform. So you should be expecting WAY more written content at a much higher and consistent clip than you have in the past. We have a team of writers. Like, these are people who are actively in Corporate America, focused and passionate on diversity and inclusion, focused--they have experiences in just being other in these majority-white spaces. We have some folks--I don't know if y'all remember--y'all should remember--Amy C. Waninger. She came on, and she was our guest for the Effective Allyship episode. She's actually one of our key contributors, key writing contributors, for Living Corporate, and so--Ade: Shout-out to Amy.Zach: Shout-out to Amy, man. Shout-out to Amy, yeah. Like, straight up. Love to all of our writers, and just really excited to tell y'all. So, like, you know, I think it was--I don't know. I guess whenever we had, like, our last random episode. It was, like, in the New Year, I think. I don't know if it was, like, the New Year or if it was, like, a New Year's Resolutions episode, but we talked about "Hey, we got more--we got, like, more content. Like, we have more stuff coming." Or maybe that was the Season 2 Kickoff. Maybe that's what it was. Kind of running together, but the point is we talked about the fact that we had more stuff coming. We were gonna wait until it was ready, and so, like, I'm just really excited to say, like, it's ready. Like, it's almost April. We've been, like, lying in the cut just getting our content together. So for all of my creators, y'all know how it goes. You don't want to just kind of jump out there. You want to make sure you have a little bit in the tuck. So we have it already, and we're just excited, so make sure you check us out on livingcorporate.com--I'm sorry, living-corporate.com, please say the dash, 'cause Australia is still trippin'.Ade: Big trippin'.Zach: They big trippin' to be honest. Yo, also--now, this is not a current events podcast, but yo, my man who busted the egg against my mans head though. Crazy. Ade: Egg Boy for president of some country that's not this one.Zach: Shout-out to Egg Boy. Yo, and also--hold on. So we can make sure that we're being fair, also shout-out to--shout-out to the Muslim woman who confronted Chelsea Clinton in a respectful but intentional way about her showing up at that vigil though. Shout-out to her too.Ade: I--I have some thoughts--oh, let's get offline. I have some thoughts.Zach: You have some thoughts? We need to really actually--we need to actually have a podcast episode very soon about being Sikh and Muslim in the corporate space.Ade: I'm down for that.Zach: Like, we need to--like, we need to, like, really get on that, like, for real. Like, that needs to be an episode that we drop very soon, because the level of just, like--man, just the bigotry, dogg, and, like, I don't think people really understand that, like, Islamophobia is definitely tied into white supremacy. It's just crazy, and, like, I just--man. And it's crazy to say I can't imagine, 'cause I can, which is sad, 'cause we're black. So it's like I can definitely directly understand and empathize and sympathize with how these people feel, 'cause it's like, "Man," but it's just nuts, man. Like, it's just crazy. Like, we've got to talk about this. Okay. Well, shoot. Let's see here. Before we get up out of here, Favorite Things? Ade: Sorry, I had to cough for a second. Um, Favorite Things, Favorite Things, Favorite Things. I didn't realize we were gonna be doing this. So my current Favorite Thing is the console.log function in Javascript. Now, for those of you who do not know, console.log allows you to print something, anything, to the console, which is where you get your feedback about how your code is doing, and I know that debuggers exist, but the way I first learned how to identify where my code wasn't quite working correctly was just by inserting a console.log function into my code, and so shout-out to that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful piece of technology that eliminates the dark for me. How about you?Zach: So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Jordan Peele. He's a beast, dogg. Like, he's super cold.Ade: Have you seen Us?Zach: I did, and actually, let me take that--well, nah--yes, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and still say my Favorite Thing is Jordan Peele, because he gives space to a very chocolate, all-black family in a major motion film. Ade: Which you wouldn't think it would be surprising to see a family that have consistent skin tone amongst them not having one random mixed-race daughter with two black ass parents. That is not the case, as the history of American television has taught us.Zach: I'm saying. Like, and they're so--they're dark. Like, they're dark, and they're--it's just beautiful. So yeah, you know, Jordan Peele is, like--he's my nod for Favorite Things this week because--and I'm not saying Favorite Things as if Jordan Peele is not a person. He's a human being, but what I love about--what I love about Jordan Peele is, and, like, what I really aspire to do is to, like, create platforms for other people to shine. That's, like, really my passion, right? Like, creating platforms for other people to shine. Like, Living Corporate, I love Living Corporate because--and it's my passion, it's my heart, because we're creating this platform to, like, highlight the humanity and, like, the perspectives and affirm the humanity of people that often get ignored. Like, he's doing that with his work, and I did see Us. This is Us. Is it This is Us or is it just Us?Ade: It's just Us.Zach: It's just Us. Goodness. Yeah, This is Us makes me cry. Not the show, just the trailers of the episodes make me cry. That's why I know I can't watch the show.Ade: Hm.Zach: I know. I'm very sensitive. So Us is amazing. Lupita though? Ayo. She bodied that. She KILLED it. Oh, my gosh. But, like, and I knew she was--like, look, I'm not--I knew Lupita was a solid actress. I didn't know she was that cold though, so forgive my ignorance. Ade: You are apparently not forgiven, because here you are.Zach: Man. Yo, when I tell you--that performance though, and I reckon--now, look, she is--she is classically trained. She is a--she is a thespian. Like, she didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Like, she's been--she's been working for years. Like, she's been building her craft for years, so I'm not asleep to that.Ade: Isn't she Julliard-trained too?Zach: Uh, Yale. Ade: Yale.Zach: Maybe she went to Julliard too. We need to get a researcher. We need to get, like, a researcher that we can, like, point to, and they can kind of just mutter stuff in the background and, like, keep us on track, 'cause I don't know. But I do know that she went to Yale. In fact, hold on. I got Google in my hand right now. I'm just finna check it out. Hold on. Did you say Julliard just because, or, like, did you hear that?Ade: I feel like I read something about her being at Julliard.Zach: Well, we about to check it out. Nah, just Yale.Ade: Oh, no. I think it's Viola that was at Julliard.Zach: You right. All right. Well, JJ, cut all of the Julliard stuff out, but the point is--Ade: No, it's okay if I'm wrong.Zach: Okay. [?] Okay, cool, no problem. So JJ, keep all of this wrong stuff in. [both laugh] But no, she bodied that. Like, I was like, "Ooh!" I was shocked. Like, and everybody in the--and, like, you know, when you go to movies with black people--scary movies with black people, you know, it's really not scary and it ends up just kind of being, like, funny.Ade: A whole lot of commentary [?].Zach: A lot of commentary that I was--that for some reason I just thought that I wasn't gonna get this time, as if, like, we all was gonna show up and not be black at the movies, but it was great, and yeah, so that's my Favorite Thing. Okay. Well, cool. Listen, man. Shout-out to y'all for real. Appreciate y'all. Year 1. We are officially 1 years old. We here. I'm not gonna say we're never going nowhere, but we're gonna be here for a while. So get used to us, get comfortable. Lean back. Put your conference line on mute so we don't have to hear you in the background, or unmute yourself to make sure you actually speak up and you're heard. That was--that was kind of, like, a consulting joke, you know what I'm saying?Ade: [not enthused] Yeah.Zach: Yeah... all right, well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast! [laughs] We're here every week. You can follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. Let me tell you something though. Our search engine optimization is so popping now, you just type in Living Corporate and you're gonna see us. Just type it in. "Living Corporate." We'll pop up. Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp, and then--yes, also, yes, real quick, shout-out to all of our guests. Shout-out to JJ, our producer. Shout-out to Aaron, our admin, okay? Okay. Shout-out to Shaneisha [?], our researcher. [long pause] Shout-out to all of our writers.Ade: [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Shout-out to all of our writers. Shout-out to our families and significant others, and yeah, this has been Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: Peace.

We sit down with Vilissa Thompson, an activist and disability rights advocate who is also the creator of Ramp Your Voice!, a disability rights consultation and advocacy organization that promotes self-advocacy & empowerment for PwDs. She created the viral hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite, spurring people to share instances of erasure of people of color with disabilities from media to medicine. Connect with Vilissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vilissakthompsonlmsw/Learn more about Ramp Your Voice!:http://rampyourvoice.com/The RYV Syllabus: http://rampyourvoice.com/2016/05/05/black-disabled-woman-syllabus-compilation/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, listen, before we get into the "It's Zach and it's Ade," I just want to go ahead and say Ade, welcome back. I missed you, dawg.Ade: What's good, what's good?Zach: What's good? So listen--and, you know, our topic actually is very serious this episode, but I want to just go ahead and get the jokes out first, because once we get this interview done, I want to go ahead and wrap it right there, right? So, you know, what I love about Living Corporate is we dismantle--we seek, rather, 'cause I'm--let me not say that we dismantle anything, but we seek to at least address openly different stereotypes, challenges, and biases, you know, for people of color and how they really impact folks, especially in the workplace. And I want to talk about colorism really quick. Now, you're gonna be like, where am I going with this? Y'all probably listening to this like, "What are you talking about?" That's cool. So educational point for my non-melanated brothers and sisters out there. My non-Wakandans. My Buckys. My Winter Soldiers, if you will.Ade: Winter Soldiers... okay.Zach: In the black community we talk about colorism, and we attribute certain behaviors to certain black folks of specific hues. Ade: Here we go. Oh, here we go.Zach: A popular myth is that lighter-skinned black people do not answer their text messages. They leave--Ade: Actually, that's very true.Zach: They leave text messages on Read. Their text messages are on swole, as it were. Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And I want to really recognize Ade.Ade: I only have 250 unread messages. You really can't play me like this.Zach: Ade is--and I'm not gonna--I hate it when people use food to describe women, but Ade is pretty chocolate, okay? She's pretty dark.Ade: You have to fight me after this.Zach: And yet she does not read her text messages.Ade: You're gonna have to run me the fade.Zach: She actually--in fact, just the other day I texted Ade, and she said, "Oh, hey," and I said, "Oh."Ade: It's on sight, I promise.Zach: You want to hit me with the "Oh?" Like, "Funny to see you here." That's what she hit me with, y'all. Like, "Oh."Ade: [sighs] Are you done?Zach: Hey, [in accent] are you done?Ade: [in accent] Are you done?Zach: [in accent] Are you done?Ade: See, you can't even--you can't pull a me on me. Zach: Man, I was so disappointed. I was like--man, I mean, if anything, based on these stereotypes, I should be the one ignoring your text messages. But you know what? For me to ignore Ade's text messages, y'all, guess what? She'd have to text me in the first doggone place.Ade: Wow.Zach: Wow. Whoa.Ade: This is a kind of rude I really did not intend on dealing with on tonight--Zach: So I want to say thank you, because last week we had--well, the last week before last, excuse me, we had Marty Rodgers. You know, it was a big deal. The dude is, like--he's like black consulting royalty in the DMV. You would think Ade would want to be on that podcast episode, you know what I mean?Ade: You're gonna have to fight me. I've decided. I've decided it's a fight to a death.Zach: [laughs] Oh, man. So I'm just thankful. I'm just so--this is me, like, publicly thanking Ade for being here and for texting me back. I don't know--Ade: I just want to say that I'm a good person and I don't deserve this.Zach: [laughs] You know what I think it was? I think it was the fact that we all got back on BlackPlanet for a couple days to check out that Solange content.Ade: Hm.Zach: I think that reset our chakras.Ade: Who is we?Zach: Or our ankhs. I don't know. We don't have--we don't have chakras.Ade: Who are we? I don't--Zach: Us as a diaspora. I feel as if that's--are you not a Solange fan? You didn't enjoy the Solange album?Ade: It has to grow on me, and I understand that that is sacrilegious, but I will say this--Zach: And you're supposed to be from the DMV too? Everybody from the DMV likes Solange.Ade: Let me tell you something. I listened--I waited until midnight. There is a screenshot on my phone of me starting to listen to this album at, like, 12:10, and I think at around 12:20 I was like, "You know what? Some things aren't for everybody." Everything, in fact, is not for everybody.Zach: That's real though.Ade: And I paused and went to sleep.Zach: Really? Wow. You know, I really enjoyed it, but I had to enjoy it 'cause she shouted out Houston a lot on the album. Like, a lot, so I enjoyed it off of that alone. And I'm also just a huge Solange fan, but, you know, I get it. It's one step at a time.Ade: Look, I too--I too am a huge Solange fan. A Seat at the Table is an everlasting bop of an album.Zach: Oh, it is. That's a classic. It's a very good album. It's, like, perfect.Ade: Yeah. This one--this one's just gonna have to pass me by and/or grow on me in 2 to 4 years. I don't know. Zach: You know, it's interesting because--it's interesting because I was used to--based on A Seat at the Table. This is not a music podcast, y'all. We're just getting our fun stuff out the way first. So it's interesting, because as a person who really enjoys Solange's words--like, A Seat at the Table, she had a lot of words. Didn't get a lot of words on this album.Ade: I'm told that it's--the experience is better if you watch the--I don't know what to call it. The visual--Zach: The visual album?Ade: Yeah, the visual album, in conjunction with it.Zach: Yeah, I'm actually gonna peep it. Fun fact. A couple weeks ago I told y'all about me playing Smash Bros., the video game, and I'm in a GroupMe, and one of the guys who I play Smash Bros. with was actually in the visual album.Ade: Oh, really?Zach: That's right, 'cause I got--those are the kind of circles I roll in.Ade: You know famous video players. Video game players.Zach: Yeah. Video game players, yeah. And as a side-note, he is very good at Super Smash Bros., so there. Maybe he'll be on an episode--on the podcast one day. Who knows? We'll see. Okay, so with that, let's do a very hard pivot.Ade: Sharp left turn.Zach: Sharp left, into our topic for the day. So we're talking about being disabled while other at work, and it's interesting because similar to how we brought up the Solange album out of nowhere, I was not really thinking about the fact that we don't really consider the experiences of just disabled people period, let alone disabled people of color at work.Ade: Right.Zach: I'm trying to think. Like, how many times have you worked with someone who was a person of color and disabled at work?Ade: So the thing to also think through here is the fact that there are lots of hidden disabilities.Zach: That's fair. That's a good call-out.Ade: Yeah, so there's a wide, wide range of conditions. Physical disabilities can also be invisible, but there are chronic illnesses, there are mental illnesses, cognitive disabilities, visual impairments, hearing impairments. According to the Census Bureau--apparently the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, applies to or covers approximately 54 million Americans. Of those I'm sure many, many millions are people of color or black people in particular, and so yeah, I don't know how many people--how many people of color I've ever worked with who are disabled or who are living with a disability, but I certainly think that it's important that, as a whole, we think about how to create a more inclusive work culture that empowers people with disabilities that's not patronizing or demeaning or just outright hostile.Zach: No, I super agree with that, and just such a fair call-out to say that there's so many folks that--who do not have visible disabilities but are--who are living with a disability, and it's important that we think about that and we think--we're thoughtful about that too, so again, just my own ignorance, and it was interesting because in preparing and researching for this particular episode, it was hard to find comprehensive data, especially content that was specific to black and brown disabled experiences. I think for me--kind of taking a step back and going back to answer my own question, any [inaudible] I've worked with who have a visible disability--I have not worked with anybody in my career who has had a visible disability, visible to me anyway. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I was reading a piece. It was called "Black and Disabled: When Will Our Lives Matter?" And it was written by Eddie Ndopu. And this was back in 2017. He's the head of Amnesty International's youth engagement work for Africa, and his overall premise was historically black resistance and civil rights and things of that nature has always presented the black body as the point of resistance, right? And ultimately the image of the black form is one of strength and solidarity and able-bodiedness, right? And it's presenting this strong quote-unquote normal body as the ideal to then push up against oppression, systemic racism, and--I'm gonna present this, and I want--I'ma dare you to try to break this form, this body. And in that there's a certain level of bias, because it then automatically erases the idea of different bodies, of disabled bodies, and if that's the case then it's like, "Okay, well, then where do they fit in this narrative? Where do they fit in our story? Where do they fit in our resistance?" And so it's just really interesting to me, because I think it's just kind of calling out our own blind spots. As much as Living Corporate--we aspire to talk about and highlight the experiences and perspectives of underrepresented people in Corporate America. It's season 2 and we're just now talking about being disabled while other at work, and so, you know, it really confirmed for me how little I think about my privilege as an able-bodied person. It's a huge privilege in the fact that we're seen. We think that we're invisible, and in a variety of ways we are, but disabled people of color are even much less visible than we are. Ade: Right, and I also think that now is such a good time to start thinking through the conversations that we should be having, because we live in a time and a space where everyone's rights are sort of up for grabs, and it's especially important that we are holding space and creating a safe space for people who have less privilege than we do, and it's not enough that you give it a passing thought, because then you might as well be sending thoughts and prayers, right? And I think that if you have the ability to do something, it's--and, you know, opinions may vary, but I am firmly of the belief that if you have the ability to do something, it is your responsibility to do something, even if what you're doing is something so simple as having a conversation or amplifying the voice of those who aren't able to have that conversation.Zach: I agree with that, and that's really all the more reason why I'm excited and thankful for the guest that we have today. Her name is Vilissa Thompson. She is a disabled activist, public speaker, educator, consultant, and writer. Yeah, she's putting in the work. And we had a great conversation, and I really want y'all to hear it and check it out, so this is what I'm gonna do. We're gonna transition--wait, you know what? Ade, so I know we said we got the jokes in. We got the jokes in at the beginning 'cause I really wanted to give space for Vilissa, and we're going to. Do we want to come back and do Favorite Things?Ade: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. Zach: All right. Cool, cool, cool. So that's what we'll do. So we'll go with our conversation with Vilissa, we'll talk about that, and then we'll get into the Favorite Things.Ade: Awesome, okay.Zach: All right, talk to y'all soon. And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Vilissa Thompson on the show. Vilissa, how are you doing?Vilissa: I am doing great.Zach: We're really excited for you to be here. So today we're talking about being disabled and being a person of color. Can you talk a bit about Ramp Your Voice! and where that idea came from and its mission and--just give us the origin story.Vilissa: Yes. Well, Ramp Your Voice! was founded in 2013, you know, as a way for me to discuss my experiences as a black disabled woman, as a social worker, and just the things that I've just noticed with my professional world as well as personally. When I--a year before that I started blogging more as a social worker blogger that was discussing social work through a disability lens, talking about different issues on that front. When[that wasn't really popular as a profession?] at that time, the profession had just started doing more things online, people coming up with different blogs and different platforms. So at the beginning of that, that really kind of helped me get to where I am when it comes to blogging, talking about the disabled experience from many different angles. So getting that experience [at 12?] led me to create my [inaudible] at 13, and we're 5 years now, soon to be going on 6 in 2019. You know, it has really grown into this organizational aspect to where, you know, I'm able to project myself as a voice within the community that really calls out some of the mess, you know, in a light way of saying it, that happens within the disabled community, as well as getting those who are in the broader society to understand that disability, you know, is very much a facet, you know, in the people, as well as their different identities and experiences. For me basically, I like to call myself a rightful troublemaker, because I don't feel that you're really doing good work, particularly if you're doing social justice, you know, if you're not shaking the table, if you're not ticking off somebody.Zach: Vilissa, I was agreeing with you because I think that, you know, when you're talking about topics around race and gender and really any topic around equity, right, and affirming or empowering disenfranchised groups, often ignored groups, right, like the disabled community, the disabled people of color community. If there isn't some type of discomfort there, then there probably isn't gonna be any growth, right? Like, in any other context when we talk about getting better or growing, like, there's some type of discomfort there, right? So, like, professional development or working out and getting new muscles or just growing as a person. You know, like, you have--you have pains. Having a child, there's pains associated with that. So there's just historically, and just as a matter of life, when you change and pain kind of--they go hand-in-hand, and they have historically in this nation as well. So it's just funny how we often try to avoid that, right? Like, we try to avoid discomfort while at the same time seeking to, like, enhance the platform of others, and it's like that doesn't--they can't go hand-in-hand. Vilissa: And I do want to say that sometimes, you know, changing things starts from within. I know that, particularly within the disabled community, there has been a lot of shake-ups due to, you know, the calling out of the racism that's in the disabled community when it comes to leadership, the kind of Good Ol' Boys club that really, you know, reigns true since, you know, when people think about disability, you know, what usually comes to mind is a white face, usually a white male face, and a lot of the leadership are white disabled men who have a lot of racist, sexist views, who resist the change that is needed, and I think there has been this surgance [sp] of disabled people of color to be able to ramp their voice, you know, in a sense, to talk about the issues that matter to them to bring forth a more diverse understanding of disability history that is not just white faces or white experiences. So I think that part of what I have experienced and others who do this activism work, you know, is shaking the table within to really get the change that you want outside, you know, of your own sphere.Zach: Let me ask this, and I find this--I find this genuinely interesting because, again, I don't believe that I considered the perspectives and the experiences of the disabled and disabled people of color. So, like, that entire community. So for able-bodied folks like myself, just people who aren't conscious of that experience, can you explain to me some of the different ways that unconscious bias, bias and racism, rear its head within the disabled community?Vilissa: Yes. One way is, you know, like I was saying, you know, who is disabled? You know, not really considering disabled people of color. You know, when we see the telethons and the marathons and, you know, the call for, you know, charities, it's usually, you know, white faces, and that, you know, visible erasure of representation allows communities of color to not see themselves, when communities of color, particularly black and native communities especially, have high rates of disability. So that erasure alone is very dangerous, you know, when there's certain racial groups who have a prevalence of disability, and then when you break that down further into the communities of color themselves--you know, I can only speak for the black community. You know, we do have a resistance to, you know, identifying as disabled or calling somebody's, you know, condition disabled, you know? We have these kind of cutesy words for it. "You know So-and-so?" You know, they may think like this, or, you know, "So-and-so may be a little, you know, quirky," or anything like that, and, you know, I think that for me, that has really impacted how I look at my black disabled body, you know, as somebody who's been disabled since birth. I really didn't identify as disabled until I started doing this work, because I didn't know that being disabled had its own identity and culture and pride and that there is a community of people that look like me and people that don't look like me and people who are wheelchair users like myself, people who are short of stature or little people or [inaudible], you know? So that invisibility when it comes to media, when it comes to the work that organizations do, really impacts one's ability to connect to an identity that's outside of their race and gender. So I really think that honestly both disabled and non-disabled people, you know, are both heavily disadvantaged due to that disability. I know that, you know, in coming to this space I see a lot of particularly black folks who are disabled, particularly those who have invisible or not apparent disabilities like mental illness, chronic pain. Those are all disabilities, you know? But we don't call those things that, and it can really create this disconnect in one's body and mind and what's going on within one's body and mind, as well as understanding that being disabled is just as strong of an identity as your gender and your race. So for me, connecting to particularly black disabled women [inaudible] is letting them know that it's okay to talk about your disability, you know? It's okay to talk about your mental illness. It's okay to talk about your chronic pain. It's okay to talk about the lack of medical assistance that you get because you are, you know, a [triple?] minority. You know, I really think that that type of visibility allows those open conversations, allows those community resource sharing or just tips shared or, you know, just plain support to occur. So for me I really want us to all kind of take a step back and say that "Hey, you know, disabled people are the largest minority group in the world and in the country," and we all know somebody with a disability, if it's not us ourselves who are disabled. So being disabled isn't just some identity that doesn't reach home in some way, shape, or form. It does, and I think that's the main disconnect that I see, people not understanding a community that is so vast, so diverse, and it's one where we do know somebody, and to not change the perception that we have about disabled people and the lives that we're able to live. So, you know, that's just kind of the things that I notice, you know, when it comes to non-disabled people, able-bodied people, not understanding things, and what disabled people like myself who do activism work, you know, have to kind of teach you all and also happen to bring you all into the fold for those who are actually disabled who may not at this point or for whatever reasons, usually due to stigma or shame, identify.Zach: In that you shared about being a triple minority, you talked about identity. As discussions around inclusion and diversity become more and more commonplace today, and more centered in pop culture frankly, the term "intersectionality" is used a lot. So can you talk to me about what intersectionality means for you? And I ask that because you shared that you being disabled is an entire identity to itself, and it is, right? It's a part of who you are. It shapes how you navigate and move around this world, how you see the world. At the same time, you are a woman. At the same time, you are a black woman. So I'm curious to know, how do you navigate the intersection of those--and of course those are just three. Certainly you have various other ways that you identify yourself. However, how do you navigate the various points of intersection for yourself?Vilissa: Well, I think that--you know, when I talk about intersectionality, I think what's so critical is that people cannot separate my identities because I won't let them. You know, being black is just as important to me as being a woman, as being disabled. You cannot look at me and just simply divide me into three different parts, you know? Each of my identities has interwoven into this, to me, beautiful fabric of my being, and the world reacts to me, you know, in the ways in which my identities present themselves, you know? Some people may not care that I'm black, but because I'm a woman that's a problem. Some people may not care that I'm a woman, but because I'm a wheelchair user that makes them uncomfortable. Some people may not care that I'm a wheelchair user, but because I'm black, that's the biggest issue. So when I go out into the world, I don't know at times which of these identities people are reacting to, or sometimes I can tell. It depends on, you know, if they're very open about what may make them uncomfortable or what they're, you know, I guess quote-unquote offended by, you know? By my mere existence. So for me, the world, you know, looks at me and judges me on those three primary identities that I have, and they make assumptions about my capabilities, my intellect, my social status, my educational status, you know? Just everything about me, and the one thing I always say about assumptions is, you know, the word assumption has, you know, A-S-S at the beginning of it, so you can make yourself look like an--you know, an unintentional [bleep] by making assumptions. So, you know, I really think that those assumptions have really shaped, you know, my experience, and particularly when I learned about the term "intersectionality," it just really, you know, was like a light-bulb moment. Like, "Oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense," because when I look at myself in the mirror, I see a black disabled woman, you know? I see--and I'm a Southerner. I'm from South Carolina, so, you know, I understand what it means to be in a small Southern town, you know, to live in a red state, to have the type of history that is attached to the South. As a woman I understand, you know, sexism and the ways that women are paid less and the harassment and the sexual assaults that women go through, you know, with our bodies and our mere existence, and as disabled, you know, we experience all of those things, you know? Disabled women, particularly those with intellectual disabled, have the highest rates of experience sexual violence. So in that example, you know, we have the connection of gender and disability. You know, when it comes to being a person of color, their people have the highest rates of police brutality. Over, you know, half of police brutality rates are conducted on, you know, disabled people, and there's a portion of those people who have been, you know, either the survivors or victims of police brutality have been disabled people of color. So in that example you have the race and the disability factor. So, you know, just in those type of statistics alone--and I could go on and on about the disparities when it comes to race, gender, and disability--you really cannot separate someone's experience and the disparities that they may encounter because of who they are.Zach: Let me ask this. You know, in the work that you do with your Ramp Your Voice! and of course as a professional, as an adult, can you talk to us a little bit about how to effectively support disabled people of color in the workplace?Vilissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I know that what my particular work journey has been. It's always unusual, you know, when it comes to how non-disabled people may look at it, but for disabled people it's not really unusual at all. As I said, I am, you know, as a social worker. When I got my MSW in 2012, I had wanted to look at traditional social work routes, and the one thing I found is that the requirements for social work positions, particularly those that deal with case management, DCS or CPS, you know, et cetera, requires you to either have a vehicle or be able to go out to homes, and as a wheelchair user I know that the majority of homes are not wheelchair-accessible, and as someone who did not have the ability to obtain a car because I was on SSI at the time, you know, that [inaudible] was there as well. So I quickly realized that if I wanted to make a niche for myself within social work I most likely was gonna have to do a non-traditional social work route, and lucky for me, I went from being micro-focused, which dealt with families, individuals, and groups, into a more macro focus, which is activism, community building, so on and so forth, and that's what kind of got me into writing and got me into Ramp Your Voice! So for me, many disabled people are like myself where we have these barriers. We have these systemic barriers when it comes to the job requirements. Like I mentioned, you know, being a wheelchair user, and you also have systemic barriers when it comes to government agencies as well. You know, with being on SSI, I knew that I would have to have a job that gave me insurance, because my SSI and my health care--because Medicaid--were connected. So if I was to lose the SSI, that means that I would lose the Medicaid.Zach: So let me ask this. What is--for those who don't know, and myself included, what is SSI?Vilissa: SSI is basically social security. There's two types of social security. SSI is what those who have not yet put into the system get, basically those like myself who are born with disabilities. Basically, like, younger kids whose parents make within the I guess income requirements. I was able to get them enrolled on it. And then there's SSDI, so those of us that work, we put into the SSDI system. So for me, I was on the SSI system because I hadn't put into the system yet. So for me, while I was building my brand, I was still looking for, you know, different types of employment. Luckily I lived at home with my grandmother at the time, and, you know, I was able to stay with her. You know, I had lived with her my whole life, so I was able to stay with her and build up this brand, and then when she passed at the end of 2015, I knew that I would have to get some type of employment. So I, you know, was able to get a job by the end of 2016, and that allowed me to get off of social security, 'cause I had health insurance. You know, that's the unique situation that disabled people endure. These are the systemic barriers. Now, some disabled people are not able to get off, particularly Medicaid, because they have comprehensive health care needs, and private insurance would not pay for some of those extensive health care needs that they have, like having a personal care assistant, someone coming to their home, helping them with their activities or daily living like dressing, bathing, so on and so forth, or they may need certain equipment, you know, that private insurance may not cover because it's, you know, very expensive. So some disabled people are not able to get off [inaudible] at all, and they have to be very mindful of how much income they may have to take in, how that can affect it, either their Medicaid and/or social security, particularly if they're both connected, and what does that look like. So this puts disabled people in the [inaudible] of property, because I know that when I was on social security I was getting several hundred and 30 something dollars a month, which is nothing, you know? To live off.Zach: Right. No, absolutely.Vilissa: Yeah, and that's, like, a month. So, you know, just think about that. For some people, that's their rent, you know? That's their rent payment.Zach: And that's some cheap rent too.Vilissa: Exactly. You know, so I think that what non-disabled people really don't realize is that when it comes to employment, disabled people have a lot to consider, and in some cases a lot to lose. That could put their livelihoods, and at times their lives, on the line. So when it comes to employment, you do have to be very strategic about what kind of jobs you take, what kind of money you take. If you can take money, what does that look like? And so on and so forth. I know that for me, I was willing to do some things for free while on social security because I knew the consequences of taking money while on social security, and that was my main source of income. And that's a lot to take into consideration, a lot, and when it comes to disabled people of color, we have the highest rates of unemployment within the disabled community. Disabled black folks have the highest rates of unemployment in the community. So, you know, it's not only us having these hoops to go through, but also people not being willing to hire us when it comes to looking for employment.Zach: So let's get back on Ramp Your Voice! a little bit. I love the writings and the photos and the resources. Where can people learn more about Ramp Your Voice!, and what all do you have going on in 2019?Vilissa: Well, Ramp Your Voice! is gonna be doing some very collaborative work. Right now I have a speaking agent, where I will be doing a lot of speaking gigs, signing up for universities. So if anybody wants me to come speak, you can sign me up for that. Reach out to me and I can connect you with my agent. And that has been a great experience that just occurred this year, to be able to connect with somebody who understands the vision that I have of my work and my voice and what I want to do with that through more writing. I'm in the process right now of working on my children's book, which is a picture book. This has been kind of like my baby for a very long time, and I'm now in the position to work on it the way that I desire to and bring it to life. Right now I don't have a publisher for that, but definitely looking for one. Right now I'm also looking to writing. I love writing about race, gender, and disability, to intersectionality and different things like, you know, pop media, media representation, health care, social work. So right now I'm just continuing to build the brand, continuing to talk about the experiences from a black disabled woman's perspective, and just really continuing to, you know, cause trouble. Like, one of the things I do enjoy doing is educating, you know, non-disabled folk, particularly those who are professionals in the medical field, the [inaudible] professions field like myself with social workers, therapists, really understanding disability outside of the medical model, which is basically, you know, talking about disability from a diagnosis standpoint as well as the [first-person?] language. We're saying "people with disabilities" instead of the identity-first language, which is disabled people, disabled [inaudible], disabled women, and really getting into the social model of understanding disability, which is more about, you know, disability being a, you know, identity, a culture, a community. So that's kind of what I offer for professionals who really want to ensure that if they're trying to engage with disabled people through their work, maybe through recruiting, you know, for their hiring practices, you know, whatever that they're interested in, make sure that they understand the language, because every community has its particular language that you need to know to be able to better relate and engage with those community members so you don't be out of date and, at times, unintentionally offensive by using outdated terms. So those are the things that I offer that I'm really looking forward to doing more of in 2019, as well as a couple other projects that I can't really say just yet, but just really, you know, expanding the brand, particularly since there's so many great disabled voices out there who are doing incredible work, you know, just making sure that what I'm doing is always fresh and always being welcome to reaching new audiences, reaching new professions and new worlds that, you know, disabled people live in, you know? Just because somebody doesn't self-identify as disabled doesn't mean that disabled people aren't in your organization, aren't in your community.Zach: I appreciate you educating me. I'm sure many of our listeners--and I'm curious though, before we get out of here, do you have any parting words? Any shout-outs?Vilissa: Well, I just--you know, I just really want to thank you for allowing me to be on here. Just know that disabled people are here, and we are not going anywhere, and if you don't know a disabled person, you need to step your game up and really--particularly if you are a professional--see the ways in which your organization, your body of work, is being exclusive--you know, excluding disabled people, and how you can be more inclusive of disabled people, and ensuring that if you're going to include disabled people that they represent vast, you know, gender, race, you know, sexual orientation, you know, identities, because we need more disabled people of color, disabled people of color who are LGBT, you know, in those types of spaces.Zach: Vilissa, I have to thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much, Vilissa. We look forward to having you back on the show. We'll talk to you soon.Vilissa: Thank you.Zach: Peace. And we're back.Ade: That was an amazing interview. Beyond, I think, inspiring, which I don't think is the term that I really want to use there, but pardon my lack of or access to language at this point. I think Vilissa's story is--it's a call to action, right? It is--and I don't know if everyone has gotten the opportunity to go to Ramp Your Voice! and just take a look around, but there's actually an anthology--I was struggling with that for a second there. There's an anthology on Ramp Your Voice! where Vilissa actually did an amazing job at collecting a black disabled woman syllabus, and I did some work and went through and read some of the articles that I hadn't had access to or read before, and it's amazing. It is a body of work that I think everyone should read, not just because it gives you a really--if you can hear something crunching in the background, that's my dog Benjamin. He wanted to be featured on the--on the podcast today, so he has some thoughts.Zach: What's up, Benji? Yeah, we can definitely hear him. It's all good.Ade: Yeah. So this list has important thoughts. Like, The Stigma of Being Black and Mentally Ill, Complexities and Messiness: Race, Gender, Disability and the Carceral Mind, which was an incredibly, incredibly important read. "How I Dragged Myself Out of the Abyss That Is Depression Without A Prescription," Disabled Black People. Just very, very important works and in many, many different formats. So you have music, audio, video, poetry and fiction, books, articles. I say all that to say that there is a treasure trove of really important and interesting work, so I encourage everyone and will include the link to the syllabus, but I encourage everyone to take a look at this work. I don't even remember where I got started with singing Vilissa's praises, but yeah, amazing interview. Zach: No, super dope, and I definitely appreciate Vilissa joining the podcast. We'll definitely make sure to have all of her information in the show notes. JJ, give me some of them air horns for Vilissa. Go ahead, give 'em to me. Put 'em in here.[air horns] Aye. Thank you, thank you. Part of me wants to let off some of them blop-blops, Ade, but, you know, we're a professional podcast.Ade: Again, all I have to say is that celebratory gunshots are absolutely situationally appropriate.Zach: Man, my goodness. One day I'ma have--one day I'ma have the CEO of my current job, he's gonna be on the podcast, and we're gonna let them blop-blops go. Watch. That might be the same podcast we talk about respectability politics too, just to make some of y'all real mad.Ade: I am here for all of that action, all of it.Zach: I'm here for it. Man, so I'm definitely excited. So I have not read any of the pieces on here. I clicked the anthology, and I see--Ade: Any?Zach: I haven't. I haven't read the pieces on here. I haven't, no. Ade: Even the black feminism or the womanism category?Zach: No. I'm being honest.Ade: Oh, you have some homework.Zach: Oh, no. I have mad homework. I have mad homework. So I'm looking at the anthology. The anthology is requesting content, right? It's requesting content, but then I see right here to your point, there's a bunch of stuff on here. The Harriet Tubman Casting Cripping Up Issue, Aunt Vi, #QueenSugar, Black Women, & Our Disabled Bodies: Why We’re Still Whole, Luke Cage: The Black Disabled Superhero We Need, If I Die In Police Custody. I mean, Why Black History Matters. There's great content here, and really there's no reason for y'all not to check this out, just like there's no reason for me not to check it out further. Amen. Okay.Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and get into these Favorite Things. Ade, why don't you go ahead and go first?Ade: Oh, I just want to say one last thing before we move on. I think that it is incredibly important as we amplify the voices of people of color who are disabled, particularly black people, particularly black women who are disabled, I think it's important that we contextualize black history and the black experience within this paradigm, and I had to sit back and think through, for example, Harriet Tubman, who we know historically had seizures. She was injured over the course of her enslavement and had to deal with severe seizures for the rest of her life, which brought on these visions that she attributed to a religious--like, a sacred experience, but I think of how important it is to 1. contextualize these experiences and 2. fully give Harriet Tubman her due, right? Because if we lose the pieces that really and truly make up who she is, we are not truly honoring her, right? And I think that if we acknowledge that, you know, Harriet Tubman was a black woman, an enslaved woman, a disabled woman, in a time that made no space for any parts of her, I think we really and truly start to understand and give honor to who she was as opposed to having honestly a very surface-level understanding of who she was and magnifying her in a shallow way, I would say. So yeah, Harriet Tubman. Amazing woman. Disabled woman. I cannot sing her praises enough obviously. I mean, duh. Harriet Tubman. But yeah, it's so important that we talk about these things, because it's so easy to gloss over the fullness of who a person was.Zach: Okay. So with that being said, now we're ready for our Favorite Things. Ade, what you got going on? What's your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: So my one Favorite Thing right now is this guy who demanded cuddles and rubs, so he is over here face all in my lap while I try to record. I promise you, he is just big ol' face in my lap. His favorite thing--his favorite thing to do is to either jump right on top of my stomach, all 50 pounds of him, when I'm laying in bed and minding my own black business, or he likes to, when I'm sitting on the couch, literally hop on the couch and put his butt in my face. It's, like, his favorite thing. Zach: This sounds abu--oh, this is a dog. This is Benji.Ade: Yes, yes. There isn't a random man running around in my life.Zach: I was like, "Wait, why is he--he's a grown man and he weighs 50 pounds and he's jumping on your stomach? What?"Ade: I would have so, so many more problems if that were in fact the case.Zach: That is crazy. I was like, "Wait, this is too much going on." Okay, so Benji is your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: Oh, and my other Favorite Thing is the CodeNewbie podcast. I stopped listening for a little while because--Zach: What's the name? Say it again?Ade: The CodeNewbie podcast. Zach: Okay, what's that? What's the CodeNewbie podcast?Ade: It is a podcast dedicated to educating folks like me who are either transitioning into tech or even, like, if you're a CS student in college or whatever it may be, a new grad of either an undergraduate, a master's student, if you were graduating from a boot camp, all of it. It just educates an entire community of learners, and I love it so much. It's, you know, after Living Corporate, my favorite podcast to listen to.Zach: Aye. Okay, that's what's up. First of all, shout-out to Benji and to all the dogs out there. Woof woof.Ade: Not woof woof. Did you just--okay, DMX.Zach: No, DMX would be like--I can't even do it. I can't even do it now 'cause you just put me on the spot. [tries] You know what I'm saying? Like, that would be DMX.Ade: Okay, Lil' DMX.Zach: Yes. ZMX, what's up? So also, you know, we need to start doing our shout-outs, so this reminds me - shout-out to the college-aged people who listen to our podcast, shout-out to the Buckys, A.K.A. the allies, A.K.A. the Winter Soldiers out there. Ade: Oh, my God.Zach: Shout-out to the Wakandans, A.K.A. my true Africans. Shout-out to my Jamaican brethren, who allow us to get these pew-pew-pews off every episode. Thank y'all for the encouragement.Ade: Honestly, I think it's [tolerated?] at this point, but shout-out to y'all anyway.Zach: Shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to the corporate gangstas. Shout-out to Wall Street. Shout-out to the folks that don't have nothing to do, they just listen to podcasts all day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: Shout-outs to those of you who have, in the last 3 days or so, deployed a "per my last email." I see you. I recognize your struggle, and go ahead and CC HR if necessary, [beloveds?]. It's okayZach: Amen. Shout-out to those who drink water every day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: And if you are listening with us right now, feel free to reach over to a glass of water or a water bottle of some sort and take a sip.Zach: Shout-out to my people--shout-out to all of my black people and all of my white people, A.K.A. all of the people who know they need to wear lotion and all of those who don't really wear lotion like that. Shout-out to all of y'all, and then of course shout-out to all of my co-workers and colleagues who listen to the Living Corporate podcast. Shout-out to y'all. Who else?Ade: You know, it's funny, because I don't really tell my co-workers about our podcast just in case I need to shade them on the podcast.Zach: See? Well, that's what happens when you're not--when you don't live your truth, see? You've got to--you need to tell your co-workers about the podcast. [inaudible]--Ade: So I just need to shade them directly to their faces? Because, I mean, I'm with that energy, it's just that--Zach: You should definitely shade people to their faces, just as a principle in life. Ade: So here's the thing. I struggle with that, because I would love to shade you in person and to your face and very loudly--well, no, that's not quite shade, that's just yelling--however, I also hold the sincere belief that I just work here. It is not my job to educate you about your silliness. So I don't know. There's, like, a spectrum of behavior, and I don't know how willing I am to invest time in raising adults. So I'm gonna continue struggling with that.Zach: I mean, I feel that. I feel that. See, I genuinely love my job. Like, I'm at a very unique place in my career. I love my job. I have a great relationship with all of--everybody in my practice. Like, I love my team, so, like, shout-out to them. And so I have no issue with letting people know that I have a podcast, plus this is a professional podcast. Like, we don't be talking crazy on here. We haven't even let any blop-blops--we haven't even let any blop-blops go.Ade: I hear you. I love my job as well, although on occasion I do sincerely doubt the judgment of some folks.Zach: That's real.Ade: So I don't know. I'm gonna struggle with that a little bit longer and let you know how I feel about it and if I'm deploying a--"Here's a link to my podcast," you know, in an email all thread.Zach: It's a good--it's also good for your personal brand. I mean, I think--you know, it's almost been a year since we've been out. I feel like it's about time you let people know you're on a podcast.Ade: Very true point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? We were in the middle of these shout-outs. Oh, right, so Favorite Things. So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Desus and Mero on Showtime, okay? So, you know, there are a few things that give me inspiration and joy at the same time, and Desus and Mero happen to be one of 'em. I love their style. I love their content. It's super funny, very engaging, and it has a certain level of just comedic timing that I aspire to have. They're wonderful. So I love their show. This is not a paid promo ad. I don't even think we have enough juice to get ad space for Desus and Mero.Ade: No, no, no. Retract that energy right now. Retract it. Retract it.Zach: Yeah, right. I'm gonna take it back, I'm gonna take it back and add a "yerrrrrp" instead. [laughs]Ade: That's how you do it. Yep.Zach: Yes, but--but no, I really enjoy their content, so shout-out to them. And that really leads me to my question before we get into the wrap-up. Do you think we should have, like, some A.K.A.s on the show? Like, not the sorority. Shout-out to y'all, though. [inaudible].Ade: I really was about to be like, "Excuse me?"Zach: No, no, no. Like, A.K.A.s, like, "Zach Nunn, A.K.A. So-and-so, A.K.A. That Guy, A.K.A. Mr. Such-and-such, A.K.A.--"Ade: A.K.A. ZMX?Zach: A.K.A. ZMX, A.K.A. "per my last email," A.K.A. CC Your Boss, CC Your Manager. My wife's looking at me and saying, "No, don't do any of that."Ade: I--yes, I really was about to be like, "Hm, this could escalate very, very quickly, and the only A.K.A. that I am known for is not work-appropriate," so I'm just gonna move on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, [inaudible] said no.Ade: I'm standing in my truth. I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my truth.Zach: My wife took her laptop, moved it off of her lap to her side, and then moved her head from the left to the right to the left again, to the right again, and then back to the left to tell me no. Okay.Ade: She's a wise woman.Zach: She is.Ade: We have been rambling for so long.Zach: We have, but, you know, this is actually part of our podcast. You know, people--y'all have been saying that we're not--you know, sometimes we come across a little too scripted. Look, we've been kicking it this episode. If y'all like--if y'all kick it with us--you know, actually, this is the last thing before we go. You know how, like, every podcast and/or, like, artist, group, they have something that they call their fans? Like, Beyonce has the Beyhive, right? Like, Rihanna--BTS has, their fans call themselves "The Army." Like, should we have--should we have any type of--Ade: An employee resource group? Sure.Zach: No, no. What we call our fans. You think we should call them an employee resource group? That'd be super funny. No, they have to give themselves an--you know, something like "our Living Corporaters," you know what I'm saying? It has to be something where you give them, like, a name. There has to be a name.Ade: I don't--Zach: Right? So, like, I'm pretty sure--Ade: Let's think through this. Y'all send us some suggestions.Zach: We've gotta think through it, right? Yeah, y'all send us some suggestions. Like, what do y'all want to be called? Y'all can't be called "the Living Corporate hive." That's mad corny. Can't be called the LCers, 'cause that's--again, it's cheesy. But I don't know. Like, we should think about something. I don't know. It'd be funny, like, if we ever had, like, a live podcast and, like, people subscribed in the middle of our podcast, if the noise was [makes noises] "Hi, who just joined?" That would be funny. [laughs]Ade: All right, it's past your bedtime.Zach: It's time to go. It's time to go, y'all. All right, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out on everything. We're everywhere. Just Google us, Living Corporate. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Make sure you check out all of our blogging content, 'cause we have blogs, and we have some new stuff coming. That'll be coming--fresh announcement, independent announcement coming soon on living-corporate.com, please state the dash, or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org or livingcorporate.net. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Y'all should know this by now because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Somebody write a note to Australia. Let them know to stop hating. Ade: A strongly-worded letter.Zach: A strongly-worded letter, right? But they're not even doing the aboriginals right, so they definitely not gonna do us right, huh, Ade?Ade: I mean, no. Zach: No, they're not. Dang, we just put some aboriginal commentary in the end of a Living Corporate podcast episode. But I mean it, y'all need to do right by the aboriginals, and frankly y'all need to do right by us and give us the livingcorporate.com domain. I'm tired of it. We've talked about this for a whole 3 or 4 months. Consider this though a strongly-worded note, a message, okay? We do need the domain. I'm terrified to ask how much money it would cost. I have no idea. I have no idea how much money it would cost.Ade: I--I just--all right. Goodnight, bruh.Zach: Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Ade: This has been Ade.Zach: Peace.Ade: Peace.

We have the pleasure of sitting down with Role Tea CEO and co-founder Mike Johnson to discuss the topic of entrepreneurship while other and what building an effective network looks like for underrepresented communities. Connect with Mike (and Role Tea) on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikecjohnson1/https://www.linkedin.com/company/role-tea/about/Learn more about Role Tea:https://www.drinkroletea.com/https://www.instagram.com/roletea/?hl=enhttps://twitter.com/getroletea?lang=enhttps://www.facebook.com/GetRoleTea/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: My grandfather was born in Mississippi and was a sharecropper on a cotton farm. With only an elementary education, he eventually moved to a small Illinois town to work for John Deere. After working for over 20 years, he established his wealth through entrepreneurship, namely real estate. "Remember," he would say to me as a child, "jobs are to pay your bills. If you want to be successful and make real money, do something else." Though he was successful, his journey was challenging and fraught with various hardship. It actually reminds me of an excerpt from a piece from Inc Magazine authored by Web Smith called "What It Really Means to Be a Black Entrepreneur in America," and I quote, "Regardless of race or ethnicity, entrepreneurs always begin at a disadvantage. However, blacks tend to need to reach levels of traction with our own money since seed money is often unavailable. This contributes to the rarity of URM entrepreneurs. Richard Kirby, vice president of Vinrock, recently compiled a list that reported a total of 23 African-American investors in the U.S. It should be of no surprise that black founders receive less than 1% of institutional capital. As important as money is the ability to realize your potential through mentorship and direction. This begins with confidence, belonging, and familiarity." End quote. Listen to that. Confidence, belonging, and familiarity. Networking is the catalyst for each of these things, but what does building such networks look like for underrepresented communities? My name is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: So today we're talking about entrepreneurship and what it means to be an entrepreneur as a non-white person.Zach: I'm glad that we're dedicating an episode to this. Living Corporate isn't just about working for someone else, but also we want to explore ways in which you can work for yourself.Ade: For sure, and shout-out to your grandpa. That's an amazing story.Zach: Yeah, it's inspiring for sure, and while it's impressive--you know, he built his empire through real estate in a small Midwestern town after building up decades of social equity by being in the community, right? Like, he bought homes, like, no one else was really wise enough to invest in, then he fixed them himself, then he managed all of his own maintenance on this homes.Ade: Wow. Yeah, I mean, he weaved his own boot straps out of thin air and then pulled himself up by them. Like, he's an amazing success story, no doubt. To your point, in 2019, the world is just way more connected and social, which is cool, but it also creates more invisible hurdles and roles and just stuff to navigate in being a full-time or even moderately successful part-time entrepreneur, right? And those three things that you quoted--confidence, belonging, and familiarity--those are all needed in the hyper-connected world.Zach: It's just funny, 'cause I was telling a colleague that because of that fact that entrepreneurship success is built on access to capital, which lie in relationships, that people of color are well-benefitted by having partners and backing that don't really look like them, and I remember I had this conversation, and you would think this person, like, thought that I had said, I don't know, just something, like, really racist or, like--"What are you talking about? What are you trying to say? I mean, anybody can do anything." I was like, "OK, all right. Yes, we can do anything." And it also helps to know the right people so that we can have access to things, so that we can do the things that we want. I mean, like, let's be realistic. It frustrates me sometimes when we talk about, like, success and striving to do better and building things that we don't acknowledge, like, the very real capitalist structures that exist, right? Not even that we're fighting against, but that we have to plug into to be successful. Like, come on. Like, this is America. Everybody does not--everybody with a great idea does not wake up and then work really hard towards that idea and then somehow, like, become successful. There's plenty of people out there with great ideas who work very hard who are never successful, right?Ade: Right, and because people of color often don't have access to power or the relationships or the rooms in which these bills are being made in these countries to be movers and shakers there's a bit of a disadvantage. Let's look at the most prominent black clothing brand ever, FUBU. Long story short, FUBU popped off by having a relationship with LL Cool J, and yes, that LL Cool J. He is black, but guess who else LL Cool J had a commercial partnership with? Gap. He plugged FUBU in the middle of a Gap promotional commercial, and he did it while he was rapping, so nobody who was on set or was clearing the ad afterwards really noticed.Zach: Right, and it's a crazy story, but people just forget about that and the fact that Damon John, he had a ton of creative methods to promote FUBU, right? Like, he had a ton of different ways he was kind of getting it out on the street, but it was that Gap commercial--that's the one that really got 'em on the map and really--anyone who studies FUBU and studies, like, advertising, they know about the LL commercial, right? Like, it's common knowledge that's--that was the tipping point for that brand, and so, like, the point is entrepreneurship is changing already. Like, the majority of entrepreneurs don't make it, but being someone who doesn't have advantages built on centuries of historical inequity makes it even harder. Not to say it isn't possible. I'm not saying that it's impossible at all, it's just--it's just hard.Ade: Correct. Wouldn't it be dope if we had an entrepreneur with, let's say, over a 15-year track record of successfully launching dozens of new products or services in the food and beverage media and industrial goods industry? In fact, I would love to hear from someone who has experience maybe launching a brand from concept to the shelf of three of the top ten grocery chains in the country.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest Mike C. Johnson?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaaat?Zach: [imitates air horns, then Sound Man supplies them] Y'all thought we weren't gonna have these air horns this season. Y'all thought. That's right. We still here with these air horns. We are here with these air horns. More fire for your head top. I'm not playing.Ade: This is really all Zach. I'm blaming it on you.Zach: Aye, drop the air horns. In fact, hold on, drop extra air horns, because we had someone who was actually from Jamaica hit us up on Instagram and say, "Please keep the air horns coming, and make them louder."Ade: Make them louder?Zach: Make them louder, so we here for y'all. We here for the people, 'cause we got it like that. We love y'all, okay?Ade: Not surprised. Not surprised in the least. All right, y'all. Keep listening for a really dope conversation.Zach: And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Mike Johnson with us. Welcome to the show, Mike. How are you doing?Mike: I'm doing good, man. How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, man. So today we're talking about entrepreneurship. So can you tell me--where did your entrepreneurial itch come from or start with?Mike: Oh, man. I really can trace it back to my early 20s. I had a couple ventures around that time that I went after. I had a website called VirtualREGallery, which was basically a website that displayed virtual tours of real estate listings before virtual tours were pretty popular. I was a realtor for a little while, and I also did some construction on the side. So I've always kind of had that aspiration to somewhat control my own destiny, but I would say what really motivated me to start Role Tea was just as I learned more about marketing and innovation, I always just had this dream to want to turn an idea or a vision to a concept and go start to finish and pretty much have complete control over how that product will come to market. So that to me has been the most gratifying part of entrepreneurship. Even to this day when I walk into a store or restaurant and I see someone, you know, drinking Role Tea and, you know, just randomly, that to this day still makes me a little excited, 'cause I'm like, "Man, 3 years ago that product was just an idea in my head, and now people can actually purchase it and consume it in a store." So that's just probably the most gratifying thing, to have that control over the idea from start to finish.Zach: That's amazing. And, you know, you talking about your previous ventures, it reminds me of another question that--you know, in season 1 we had a guest who brought up the concept of failing forward--failing quickly and failing forward, so can you talk a little bit about that concept and perhaps what some of your biggest Ls--and we'll say Ls are lessons--that you've taken in your entrepreneurial journey?Mike: Yeah, man. That's a great question. The crazy thing for me about failure that I've learned in this experience is that--you know, I've realized that you really only fail at almost anything when you quit. Like, going into this venture, you know, sometimes your mind can play tricks on you. You start thinking about the worst things that could happen and failure and whatnot, but when you get into it you realize that, man, virtually everything that happens to a business can be resolved if you have the fortitude to try to work through it. So, I mean, you know, we're no different. Like, you know, everyone talks about the great side of entrepreneurship, but man, we've had at least four or five near-death experiences with our company in 2 years. Like, you know, from running out of cash, which a lot of startups have that issue with running out of money, to, you know, having key suppliers back out last minute, literally weeks before launching into Wegmans, which is a 95+ grocery chain from Virginia up to upstate New York, to having distributors back out the last minute. I mean, all of these things have taken out other companies, but for us we just looked at it as, you know, "Okay, here's another problem." You know, "What are our options just to get past it?" And you kind of take it on the chin and move forward. So, you know, you really only fail at almost anything when you quit or when you run out of, you know, hands to play. So once you realize that and you realize that, "Wow," you know, "what happens with me and this business is largely up to my control," it's kind of empowering once you realize that. But as far as just lessons in general around business, to me the two biggest lessons that come to mind for me is--the first one is just starting as small as you can until you can completely the validate the concept, and when I say validate the concept I mean that, you know, you have a product or a concept that people are gonna want to buy, where the economics of it will actually be able to create a business, right? There's a lot of ideas out there that you can sell, but you're never gonna get the price point that you need to actually have a business. Making sure that you actually know who the consumer is. You know how to talk to them or the channels to sell to them. Those are all the things that are required to really validate a concept, and it's best to try to do that on a very small scale to start. That's definitely been a lesson that we've learned early on, and then I think the second big lesson that I've learned in this in terms of failure as well is just trying to get the business to a point where it can be self-sustainable as quickly as possible, right? So right now we're going through some pretty, you know, dramatic changes around our operations to get a little bit more margin back in house versus giving it to a supplier or an outsourced vendor, and that's just all in an effort to get our business to a point where it can pretty much eat off of what it kills, right? We can sustain ourselves based on our own selves as opposed to relying too much on outside investments. So that's a piece of advice I would give to any aspiring entrepreneur. Even if you want to raise capital, it's just good to have financial discipline to try to get your business as self-sustainable as possible as quickly as possible. So there's many lessons, but those two stand out the most.Zach: And so, you know, you've talked--you talked a little bit about Role Tea, and we're definitely gonna get into that as we get further along in this interview. I'm curious to know about your ventures. Could you--would you mind walking us through? Typically when I meet--the reason I ask your ventures is because typically when I meet entrepreneurs, they may have, like, one big thing, but they have a few other things kind of cooking around them. So I'm curious to know, what are your ventures right now?Mike: No, yeah, that is very true. We tend to have short attention spans, so it's easy to kind of get involved with different things. You know, we launched Role Tea in December, November timeframe of 2016, so we're right at the 2 years, and to be honest, man, aside from, you know, being a new father, which I actually became a father the same year I became an entrepreneur with Role Tea, that's been my primary focus. Now that Role Tea is a little bit more established in terms of distributors and it doesn't take as much of me doing virtually everything to keep it going, I am starting to get back a little bit into consulting. That's something that I did prior to launching Role Tea, so I do like to work with other startups and help them however way I can, but aside from that, man, the bulk of my focus right now is with Role Tea.Zach: What challenges do you believe that you've had as a black entrepreneur? And I ask that because in the research that Ade and I have been doing, we've noticed that there are some challenges that are unique to being a non-white builder of businesses, and so I'm curious to know, like, if you--have you run into any challenges that you believe are unique juxtaposed to your white counterparts? And if so, what are they?Mike: Entrepreneurship, just inherent in the way it is, is already built with plenty of challenges. White, black, yellow, whatever. So sometimes it can be a challenge to understand, "Okay, is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm simply an entrepreneur, or is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm a black entrepreneur?" And that can be difficult sometimes to decipher, but one challenge that I think is definitely tied to us being, you know, African-American [and own a business,] especially in the food and beverage industry. It's just the fact that, you know, we are launching a beverage brand that is--our intent is to scale to 100+ million in sales and potentially exit, so we're treating our business like a true startup, not like a family-owned business where we're just, you know, looking to sell locally and et cetera, and I think that that's a very different thing in the food and beverage industry amongst a black entrepreneur that most people would expect. So I think that just simply not having a whole lot of examples to point to of black-owned food and beverage brands that have been able to do that successfully makes it hard for a lot of people to see the vision and see the potential in our concept, and I think that's especially true primarily with investors. We've actually had, you know, pretty good success with, for example, some major retailers. We've gotten our product onto the shelves of Whole Foods, of Wegmans. Those are two of the top-rated grocery chains in the country. Hy-Vee is another one. You know, but from a business standpoint, I think that's where we've seen most of the challenge in terms of, you know, working with investors and things of that nature, and I think that's largely because there's just not a whole lot of examples of African-American-owned food and beverage brands that have done it to that level, which is what we're aspiring to do. So I'm sure that there is plenty more, but that's definitely one that I can say for certain I think is unique to us.Zach: So what advice would you give to the person who thinks, you know, entrepreneurship is an all-or-nothing thing and it isn't--they're not starting their journey because they're afraid of missing a steady paycheck?Mike: Yeah, man. That's definitely something that is--I find is very common amongst a lot of people. I struggle with that myself. The first thing is you don't have to be all in to be an entrepreneur, right? Don't listen to everything that you see on Instagram and, you know, social media. There's a lot of people out here glamorizing entrepreneurship, and entrepreneurship is great, right? I spent 12+ years in the corporate world, and now I'm 2 years as an entrepreneur, so I can give you the perspective of both sides, and there's definitely a lot of advantages on the entrepreneur side, but there is nothing wrong with side-hustling it for as long as you can, right? That extra paycheck from your job is--it actually can position your business to be more successful, you know? Thankfully I have 12+ years of experience in the corporate world working for other people, learning, collecting that nice six-figure salary so that I can actually build up a savings to even have a chance to do what I'm doing now. So it's all about when is the right time for you, even if you ever want to go all in, right? All in meaning you're full-time with your entrepreneurship venture, but that's the first thing. Don't feel pressured to go all in, right? And when you go all in is another big question that I hear a lot, and it's also one that I--challenge that I dealt with, and, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. Everyone has to lok at their particular situation to know when is the right time, but I will say that there's probably about four or five things that, you know, anyone that's in that situation is looking to do, to transition, to go all in, they should be looking at. Like, the first thing is, you know, what does your business require? Like, for example, if you're gonna launch a catering business versus a restaurant, you know, they're two very different demands and requirements, right? When you're talking about a restaurant, you have to deal with a storefront, which likely comes with remodeling, et cetera. Not the typical type of thing that you can get, you know, to market on the weekends and evenings, right? Whereas a catering service, you can do that evenings, weekends. You can pretty much side-hustle that until you actually get paying customers before you even have to leave your job. So the type of business that you're looking to start a lot of times will dictate largely when you can actually go all in or if and when you can actually cut the 9-to-5 path. The other thing you've got to look at is, you know, what type of support do you have going into it, right? Do you have people, whether it's family members or friends, that can help you out early on without having to get paid, right? I mean, early on there's no cash coming in. To get it stood up, you're gonna need people to help. You're gonna need your team. What type of support do you have? If you have a pretty good support system, you may be able to go all in a little bit sooner. Also you've got to look at, you know, what are your responsibilities in terms of financially and with people, right? Are you 21 years old, no kids, no family, very low bills? You know, that gives you a whole lot more flexibility in terms of what you can do sooner and the risks that you can take, whereas if you are--like, in my situation, I started, you know, Role Tea already in my mid-30s. Like I said, I'm a father, newly father, so I have to move a lot different in that situation.Zach: Congratulations on that, by the way.Mike: Oh, I definitely appreciate it, man. Fatherhood is a lot of fun, a lot of fun. But yeah, you have to move a lot different if you have a lot of financial responsibilities and people responsibilities. Obviously you have to be a little bit more smart about when you go all in. You also might have to look at are there skills that you just don't have yet but you need to develop before you go all in, right? And then lastly, this is probably often times, you know, skipped and not really taken into consideration, but you definitely have to look at what's your appetite for risk and uncertainty, right? Once you pull the plug on that 9-to-5 and you're all in, you know, on the good side is it really motivates you to have a sense of urgency, to move forward fast, but at the same time it can also be stressful by not having that paycheck coming in every week or two or whatever it was you got paid, and that can definitely cause a lot of stress and anxiety, and if you're the type of person that doesn't deal well with that type of uncertainty and stress, #1: you're probably going to struggle as an entrepreneur, 'cause that's gonna come naturally, but that may also dictate you keeping your business as a side hustle a little bit longer. So I never tell someone exactly what to do in that situation, but I would definitely tell you that those are probably the four or five things that you should be thinking about in your situation to determine, you know, when you go all in or if you go all in at all.Zach: And so, you know--and I alluded to this earlier about some of your challenges as a black entrepreneur, but the research I was speaking to specifically had to do with the variance in acquiring capital, right? So venture capital, angel investments, and other types of non-business loan-sourced funding. I'm curious, have you had any challenges in acquiring that type of funding, and really what's been your journey in building those relationships with those with access with the capital to help your ventures?Mike: Yeah, that's a great question. It's definitely one of the bigger challenges that I'm finding with not just our business but other black-owned entrepreneurs, and it's a complex one, which I--I know that this is probably an area of business that's foreign to a lot of people, so I definitely want to make sure I kind of break this down because, you know, I have an MBA, but yet 3 years ago I didn't understand hardly anything about the idea of raising capital. I've had to learn a lot through this venture, and the challenges that are unique to African-Americans is--it's kind of a snowball effect, so let me explain it like this. So investment in startups typically happens in a progression, right? So, you know, the first step is typically money out of your own pocket, right? So that's called bootstrapping, right? Maybe you've worked in the corporate world for a number of years, you've built up some savings. Maybe you got an inheritance. Whatever the case may be, right? But you need some sort of cash to get things going very early on. That's typically the first step. Second step is you look to friends and family, right? "Who do I know in my own personal network?" Friends, family, associates, that have the means to write a $10, 20, 30, 50,000 check or more, right? That's the second step, and then once you get past that, then you get into what's called angel investors, which are typically either high net worth or high-income individuals who choose to invest in startups, right? And then lastly you get to venture capital, which essentially are, you know, funds that investors who are called limited partners, or LPs, invest in, and they then have managers of those funds look for startups to invest in, right? And they can go from $500,000 up to, you know, $100,000,000, right? They write very large checks. So that's the typical progression of a startup raising capital for their business. So let's think about that, right? Now, what we know about African-Americans is we traditionally have a lower income than non-whites. We also traditionally have a lower net worth, which is probably more significant, than whites. So going back to the very first step in that progression, right? Most of us could struggle with having the means to even bootstrap, to have that $20, 30, 50,000 just to get started, right? Because of the points that I just made, right? And if you get past that hurdle, then now you have to find friends and family that also can write that $10, 15, 20,000 check or more. Again, that's a struggle that's unique for African-Americans moreso than others because of the points that I just made. So right out the gate as an African-American entrepreneur you have some disadvantages, right? And VCs and angels, you have to get past those first couple stages typically before they're even interested in looking at your business, right? And the crazy thing about investment, the investment world, that I've learned is investors rely significantly on their personal networks to even be introduced to an entrepreneur to invest in. So they're--again, how many African-Americans have the social network, the connections that people that have that kind of means to write those checks, right? So it's a snowball effect that, collectively speaking, puts us at a disadvantage, and again, that's definitely a challenge that is well-documented. We've experienced it. Other founders that we know have experienced it, but, you know, how you deal with that is--again, I don't want to make it sound simple, but the first thing that we've tried to do is just bridge that gap in terms of relationships, right? And that's really done largely by just putting yourself out there, putting yourself in situations to meet people that can invest in your brand. So, you know, the very first angel investor that we had we met at the Black Enterprise Entrepreneurs Summit last year. We were chosen as a finalist to pitch in that competition, so, you know, we got a lot of visibility at that show down in Houston last year. We met with our first investor there, our first angel investor I should say, and, you know, months down the road after the rapport was established he decided to invest in us, right? So that was an example of where we had to kind of bridge that gap by just going out and making those connections, and then the second thing really is just--you know, you have to have the mindset that you're gonna make your startup undeniable, right? You know, if someone says no now, which we've definitely heard tons of nos, and you're gonna hear nos. Raising capital is very difficult for any startup, so you have to have the mindset that, you know, "Okay, you say no today, but we're gonna build up the traction that we need over the next 6 months to 12 months to the point where if you say no you're basically foolish," right? So you just have to make your startup--you have to make your startup undeniable, 'cause everyone likes to make money, and I think it's a little bit more of a challenge to show that we can do that, but, you know, if you can definitely demonstrate that, people will invest in your startup. It's just a little bit difficult for us for those reasons.Zach: That's just such a great point around--especially when you started--when you talked about, like, the various levels of investment, right? So I'll even use Living Corporate as an example. For us, you know, I'm one of the few people in my family even in corporate America. We don't all have money like that. I certainly would not--I don't even feel comfortable. I mean, and some of that might just be culture too, Mike. I don't feel comfortable walking to a member of my family talking about, "Hey, would you mind investing $10,000 to help us hire writers and videographers and so on, so on, and so forth," and really invest in Living Corporate. Like, what? You know what I mean? Like, just the thought of that, right? And then, you know, we had an episode again in season 1 when we were talking about family [inaudible]--like, the wealth gap. The wealth inequality gap, and there's plenty of research to show that in the next 10, 20 years, that the average value of a black home will be zero dollars, right? So you're talking about the fact that starting up and getting all this capital, for a community who has no money--like, we don't have the centuries of privilege and things of that nature to have an uncle or a second cousin who can write a check, right? And I think that's just a really good point. You know, I'm curious about Role Tea, so let's dig into that a little bit more. So first off, when can Living Corporate get a case of the tea?Mike: I'm always open to giving Role Tea to whoever wants it, so yeah, I'll let you go with the second question.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so we're good on the tea. And then why tea? Why Role Tea, and then what was the inspiration behind Role Tea?Mike: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we definitely got you on the case. No problem there. As far as the inspiration for the tea, we always say on the--we launched the tea 2 years ago, but the idea for Role Tea really started probably in my early 20s more than 10 years ago where I had the experience of losing 100 pounds, right? So, you know, I'm like 22 years old, and I get that scale shock where I go to the doctor and--I know I'm obviously way too big, but I didn't realize I had actually gone over 300 pounds, and I'm like, "Man," like, "Okay, something's gotta change." So at that point my relationship with food changed, and I learned that, you know, a lot of the traditional foods and beverages that I had consumed, that were, you know, typically less than healthy, right, if I'm creative I can remix those recipes to be better for me, still taste good, and actually serve a purpose to either help me feel better or perform better, and so, you know, over the course of the next 2 to 3 years I lost 100 pounds just, you know, changing the way I ate and exercising more, et cetera. So fast forward to 2015. At this time I was training for a boxing match. I'm a huge boxing fan. I've boxed for several years. Anyone that knows me knows that I'm passionate about boxing just as I am about business, but I was training for a boxing match in 2015, and I noticed--again, now in my mid-30s, you know, after training, what used to take a day or two to feel normal again, not feel sore, not feel stiff, was now taking 2 or 3 days, right? So I started to research beverages that I could drink--you know, not supplements, but just every day traditional beverages--Zach: Natural.Mike: Yeah, natural beverages that I could incorporate into my diet that may help, and so, you know, that's when I learned about ingredients like tumeric and ginger and, you know, green tea and tart cherries, which all have natural anti-inflammatory properties, and so I looked for options in the store, and virtually everything I saw was $6 or $7 bottles of juice, [inaudible] sugar. So, you know, my background is in innovation, new product development and launches, so I immediately saw a business opportunity. I went to a friend of mine named Corey Benson with the idea, and he has an operations background. He was running a manufacturing plant at the time, and he said, "You know what, man? Like, I see people every day that are standing up at the job for 9, 10 hours a day. They're popping Aleves. They're, you know, popping Advils and drinking Mountain Dews to deal with the soreness from just their job," right? So he immediately saw the pain point that, you know, the concept that we were thinking about would address, but he saw it from a regular 9-to-5 job, whereas I was dealing with it from a weekend warrior boxing perspective, right? So we immediately saw, like, "Wow, this whole thing around inflammation and a functional beverage that can help with that has some legs, and it probably could impact a lot of people." So from there we were ready to go. We started to research the industry a lot more in 2015 and 2016. We worked with a development company to take our recipes that we had created with tea and juice and spices, like tumeric and ginger, to basically create a product that could be sold on a shelf. We chose tea because, you know, tea is a very popular drink, and it still is. Shout-out to Guru, even though he talked about lemonade. But tea's a very popular drink, and the great thing about it is, again, you know, a lot of the options before were juices, which is more expensive. Tea is a much less expensive catalyst to use to deliver functional spices and benefits, so we figured we would be able to create a functional drink that's also affordable, right? So we're probably one of the first functional beverages in stores like Whole Foods and Wegmans that was under $3 per bottle, and again--plus I'm a huge iced tea fan, right? So that was a natural ingredient, or product, to use. So, you know, we worked through the recipe process in 2016, and we launched a product literally the night before Thanksgiving in the D.C. Metro area in 2016, and, you know, we started off just very independent, selling out of the trunk of our cars, and, you know, now we're currently sold in over 100 locations, from Virginia up to upstate New York as well as a few states in the Midwest. So right now we're just, you know, looking to continue to grow the business, bring on more partners, bring on more investors, and just see how far it can go.Zach: Man, that's incredible, man. You know, and down the road, once, you know, we get this tea and we drink it, we'll make sure to shout y'all out on the podcast on the part of our Favorite Things.Mike: Definitely. Definitely do that.Zach: Yeah, man. Now, this has been a great conversation. I really want to know where people can learn more about Role Tea and where they can get some.Mike: Yeah, yeah. So Role Tea--and that's R-O-L-E, as in, like, play your role. Role Tea is sold online, so you can see us at RoleTea.com. R-O-L-E-T-E-A dot com. We're also sold on the East Coast, primarily in stores like Wegmans as well as some independent stores in the D.C. Metro area. So yeah, check us out online, RoleTea.com. A lot of good information there. You can order right through that website. Yeah.Zach: That's what's up, man. Now, look, before we get out of here, do you have any parting thoughts or shout-outs?Mike: Yeah, I definitely want to shout-out everyone that has tried Role Tea, everyone that will try Role Tea, including you, Zach. Yeah, everyone that's worked with the brand to help get us this far, to this point, definitely appreciate the support. I definitely want to shout-out my co-founder Corey Benson. Definitely want to shout-out, you know, again, everyone that's listening to this podcast. I didn't get a chance to say this before, man, but when I first heard about this podcast and what you guys are attempting to do as far as help educate people in how to navigate, you know, the world of corporate America, I'm like, "Man, that's definitely something that's needed." Like you mentioned yourself, you're a first-generation corporate professional, right? Did I hear that right?Zach: Right.Mike: Yep, so same here. You know, first in my family to, you know, get a bachelor's degree, master's degree, corporate world and, you know, going into the corporate world I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm ready for success based on my education," but I quickly learned that most of what determines your success in that world is the things that are not taught in the classroom, right? It's the soft skills. It's the implied cultural norms that are often times a little bit different than what we grew up with, so, you know, a lot of us learn those lessons on the job as opposed to being prepared beforehand. So this podcast is doing a great service to help educate young professionals on those waters before they get into them, so kudos to you guys, and again, I'm glad to be a part of this.Zach: Man, Mike, thank you so much for the kind words. Again, the drink, Role Tea--like know your role, R-O-L-E T-E-A, and we're excited to give it a little review. So I appreciate your time. We consider you a friend of the show. Can't wait to have you back, man.Mike: Definitely appreciate it, man.Zach: Peace.Mike: Peace.Ade: And we're back. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview, Zach. I mean, I've known Mike for a little while now. He's been a great friend and supporter. Like, he's always good, not only to listen to you for advice but just listen to his experiences, and how he's been able to grow Role Tea as a brand has been very inspiring, and I'm so glad that we got so much of that in that interview.Zach: No, for sure. In our discussion, and outside of it too, we talked about--just talked about his history and talked about the challenges of building up his brand and really, like, trying and failing at some other things too, but super happy he was on the show, and hopefully we'll get some--we'll get some tea out of this. He told me he'd actually send us a couple pallets. I don't know about pallets, but he said he'd send--Ade: Word?Zach: Yeah. Not pallets, 'cause pallets sounds like--Ade: 'Cause that tea is delicious.Zach: Yeah. No, I've heard it's--I haven't had any yet, but I'm positive that once I have it I'm gonna enjoy it.Ade: Okay. Well, I am keeping an eye out, because Role Tea is amazing. Anyway, awesome. Thank you, and shout-out again to Mike Johnson and Role Tea. I'm looking forward to that tea.Zach: Salute to Mike. Okay, so Favorite Things?Ade: Favorite Things. Let's go. All right.Zach: All right, cool. So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Now, some of y'all are like, "Super Smash Bros.? What's that?" But let me tell you something, those who know--Pusha T voice. "If you know, you know." So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on my Nintendo Switch. It's super fun. I play in the evening after a long day at work, and I love it because I can just kind of pick it up. I don't have to, like, sit down in front of a big TV, boot up the game. I can just pick up my handheld, boot it up. And for those who want to know, my favorite--my main character is Chrom. So again, for those who are kind of, like, outside of this whole video game space, Super Smash Bros. is a Nintendo game, right, but it's like you can, like, pick Nintendo characters against each other to fight, right? But, like, not in a, like, super violent Mortal Kombat way. More, like, kind of, like, a cartoonish, fun way, but it's a deep, deep game, right? So you can put Mario against Sonic. You can put Princess Peach against Captain Falcon or Fox or Falco or Ganondorf versus Kirby. You can do all kinds of crazy match-ups, right? Super fun, and so it's been cool. It's a really good stress reliever. That--you know, working out sometimes, you don't want to necessarily want to get up and work out. Forgive me. I don't want to work out all the time. Sometimes I just want to kind of veg out, and it's great. It's great for that. So that's my favorite thing.Ade: Okay, self-care. I see you.Zach: That's right.Ade: So my favorite thing lately has been a book called Cracking the Coding Interview. It's been invaluable, I think. I struggle--for those of you who are just joining us, just in case this is your very first Living Corporate episode ever, I am switching careers, or I'm in the process of switching careers. I'm becoming a software engineer, and part of that process is self-teaching both foundational concepts and computer science, but also understanding algorithms, binary trees. Just how the very technical elements of software engineering, something that you are supposed to pick up in a classroom that I did not have the luxury of doing, therefore I have to teach myself. And there are also books that exist out there that kind of help you through the process of thinking through and developing strategies for coding interviews. I'm discussing it like it's a journal or something like that, [inaudible], but yeah, it's been a really important book, and I've kind of been adding more and more base computer science books and algorithm books to my library, right next to Frantz Fanon and Audre Lorde. So yeah, those are my favorite things.Zach: That's a sick combination though. That's dope.Ade: I want you to know our library in our home consists of tax law code and regulations and vegan chef--vegan cookbooks and regular cookbooks and Sister Outsider. [laughs] And computer science books and data science books.Zach: That's dope though.Ade: Oh, and [Ola had a?] self-help book. So there's no way you can walk into my home and not have something to read.Zach: You're gonna have something. You're gonna learn about something.Ade: There will be something available to edify you. I even have, like, fiction novels, everything from John Green to Grisham to Tomi Adeyemi, which, again, shout-out to her.Zach: Shout-out to her. No, straight up. She's great.Ade: I'm looking up to the next book in the series, by the way. Okay, we have veered so far off track. Did you have--Zach: Good. It's a Favorite Things segment. We're supposed to turn up. It's cool.Ade: You know what? You're right. You're right. Sir, sir. Sir. [Not turning up. Cruise?]. I'm tired. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] [Turn me up. Cruise?]Ade: Nope, I'm tired of you.Zach: Okay. No, no, no, but that's dope. So look, you know, y'all, if it wasn't evident by our kickoff episode, as well as our Supporting Black Women at Work section, the B-Side that we had as well as the full episode, we're here, man.Ade: We outchea.Zach: We're gonna have a good time this season. Make sure you keep checking us out. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Please say the dahs.Ade: The dash.Zach: If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, just email us or hit us on DM, right? We out here. Don't forget to give us 5 stars too. Now, look, some of y'all actually been responding and gave us some stars, but not all of y'all though. That's right, I'm looking at you. That's right. We need those 5 stars, okay? Right? Am I tripping, Ade? Do we need the 5 stars or nah?Ade: We need the 5 stars.Zach: We need the 5 stars. Okay, cool. Look, y'all. That does it for us. We'll catch y'all next week. This has been Zach.Ade: And this is Ade. Free 21 Savage.Zach: Free 21 Savage. Peace.Ade: Peace.

The founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls Alicia Davis joins the show to discuss a very important topic: what to do when you're unemployed. She also relates her own experience with unemployment and shares effective advice regarding how to handle it. Connect with Alicia: LinkedIn, Cubicles & Curls website, IG, TwitterConnect with us! LinktreeTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you're listening to a special B-Side. For those of you who are new here, B-Sides are essentially episodes we have in-between our more formal episodes, and they are even somehow more lit than our regularly scheduled content. That's right, more lit. Now again, this B-Side is special, because we have Alicia Davis, CEO and founder of Cubicles and Curls. Alicia, please introduce yourself.Alicia: What up? This is Alicia. I am the creator and founder of Cubicles and Curls, which is a blog or blog, you know, platform, for black professionals doing their natural hair thing, doing their career thing. We talk about hair care, we talk about hair styling, we talk about career advice. The whole thing.Zach: Come on, now. That's right, and it's special also not just because Alicia is here--that's plenty special of course, but because we're doing, like, an interview/collab episode. That's right. Alicia, why don't you walk through how we're gonna do this today?Alicia: All right. So today's episode is something that I felt was very important to talk about, 'cause we don't talk about it enough. We're talking about what to do when you are unemployed, and that could be, you know, you got fired, laid off, underemployed, you know, just haven't found a job yet. [Everyone?] goes through it at some point in their life, and we really wanted to get into the whole nitty-gritty of how that feels, what to do, how to look for a next job, and, just, you know, letting you know it's okay and it happens.Zach: That's a great subject. I'm excited about this because--you know, labor statistics show that non-white professionals are more likely to be unemployed and more likely to be unemployed for longer stints of time, so it's really important that we, I believe, have this conversation. Have fun with it of course, but really just address it, and address it courageously, because it's part of your career journey. And there's a quote here. Do you want me to read it or do you want to read it, Alicia?Alicia: Sure, I'll read it if you're talking about the Anna Wintour quote.Zach: Yes.Alicia: So Anna Wintour, who is the editor of Harper's Bazaar--sorry, no, I think she's the editor of Vogue. She used to work for Harper's Bazaar, and she said, "I worked for America's Harper's Bazaar. They fired me. I recommend they all get fired, because it's a great learning experience."Zach: For sure, for sure, for sure. So right, we want to talk about our experiences of losing jobs, what we did during unemployment, and what we did to find a new job. So Alicia, do you want to start or do you want me to start?Alicia: Yeah, sure. So I'll start.Zach: Okay.Alicia: You know, I would like to say that I've probably been unemployed a total of three times, under different circumstances. You know, once when I was in college. You know, another time it was just kind of, like, an issue of lack of work. You know, the company had to downsize. And another time I actually got fired. So, you know, those experiences really resonated with me, because, you know, something that I think we're ashamed of a lot, and one thing--when I was going through that at first I was just so down, but once I got out of it I kind of saw it for the gift that it was at that time.Zach: Yeah. No, for sure. So I was thinking about this--as we met of course and you proposed this topic, I was thinking "Okay, so I don't think I've ever been fired," right? And I haven't really ever been, like, asked to resign or anything like that either, but I do remember in college just not having a job and desperately wanting a job, and that journey of, like, getting into the workforce for the first time for real and trying to, like, prepare myself for a real career after college. I also remember--though I did not get fired and I wasn't asked to resign, I do remember quitting a job because the environment was so toxic, right? It was super racist, and I was getting called out on my name and threatened and things of that nature, which was, like, genuinely a dangerous and toxic environment, and I remember for about 3 or 4 months I was just, like, freelance consulting. I remember that, and that was a major part of my learning journey as well. So I'm excited about this for sure. And so then what did you do to find a job? Like, in those instances--Alicia: [inaudible] fired?Zach: Yes.Alicia: Oh, sorry.Zach: No, go ahead.Alicia: I said not everyone's been fired, but I think everyone faces unemployment, either after college or underemployment, you know? Sometimes things just happen where you're in-between jobs or, like you said, you quit 'cause you just can't take it anymore, and so I think at some point everybody goes through one of these phases where you're just, you know, in-between jobs.Zach: Absolutely. And, you know, something I've also realized is how big--so the gig economy, which is, like, a whole 'nother podcast episode, but in that same vein, contract employment, right, and working through temp agencies and contracting agencies where you're not, like, a--you're not your own boss, but, like, you're working through someone--you're working through an agency that if they don't staff you on a role, then you don't have any--you don't have any paper, right? And there's--that type of work lends itself to being underemployed for months at a time.Alicia: Exactly, and even if you are making paper you don't have benefits.Zach: Right, right. You don't have benefits, right. So yeah, I mean, let me ask you, what did you do--in those seasons of unemployment, what were you doing to find a new job?Alicia: Right. So the first time, you know, when I got laid off, my company was downsizing, you know? It just was a matter of how scared--I had moved out, like, boldly moved out of my mother's house for a year, and I was like, "I have to make ends meet." So, you know, I reached out to, like, my contacts. I was, like, really just kind of nervous about it, you know? And I found a job kind of quickly, just 'cause, like, I needed something to do. So I found a job. It was decent. I was like, "Okay, we can do this." It wasn't really what I wanted to do. It was outside of my field, but it was a job. It had benefits, and I was happy for it until, you know, finally it kind of came out that really that job wasn't gonna be a good fit, and, you know, they agreed it wasn't a good fit. We had to part ways. After that, I was unemployed for a year, but this time moreso voluntarily. I wasn't looking for a job at first because I really wanted to use the time--you know, 'cause prior to that I was unemployed for 2 months, and I was like, "If I ever find myself in that situation again, I'm gonna use the time a little differently." So I used the time to kind of reassess the kind of person I am, what my goals are, work on projects that I didn't get time to do when I was working full-time, and I was really--you know, I had saved up enough, so I was really just working to, you know, get myself ready to work and to come back to the workforce before I started looking for a new job.Zach: So those are great points, and it's interesting 'cause I think, for me, when I took a step away from that really toxic job, I was doing a lot of freelancing, like, contract work and kind of, like, staff agency stuff, and I really had to really take--for me, what I learned and what I really had to really pause and--there was a certain level of intentionality on my side of "Okay, well, before I just throw myself headlong into something else, what do I really need to, like--" 'Cause that was--I probably need to find some healing from that situation, right? And everybody who quits or leaves a job or--you know, it's not that it always is gonna be traumatic per se, but listen, man, leaving a job is hard. Like, even if you leave a job for something else that might be better, you kind of got to wash some of that old stuff off, right? Like, you need to--like, there needs to be a certain part of you that needs to kind of let it go. It's kind of like getting out of a relationship or--to be honest, right? Like, platonic or romantic.Alicia: Yeah, 'cause when I was [single?] I was like, "Am I describing my breakup?" Or "Am I describing when I left a guy?"Zach: And then, you know, also, you know, your living situation and your--you know, your savings and your severance and unemployment insurance, stuff like that. I mean, having those things lined up too. Thankfully for me, when I was doing the contract work and the checks were not as steady because I was freelancing and doing a bunch of different other consulting work, my wife had a job at the time, so--and because of the way that we had budgeted and we lived under our means, you know, nothing went under, by the grace of God, but it's important to think about those things too. So, you know, regardless of what they say, when you resign--when you leave a job, regardless if you leave--if you leave a job for another job or you leave a job just because "I got to leave"--people say "Don't make an emotional decision." Listen, it's always gonna be an emotional decision. You will never be able to, quote unquote, take the emotions out of it. There's gonna be some emotion involved with you transitioning away. At the same time, it's important to think through, like, "Okay, what are my plans once these checks stop," right?Alicia: Mm-hmm, yep. And, you know, to that it's really--one thing I want to tell people is if you're quitting, you need to make sure you have the financial means, but however if you're getting laid off, you might not have had that stacked up, you know? And one of the first things I did when I was laid off, I was like, "Well, can I get--" You know, talked about severance and all that stuff, and I was like, "Can I get unemployment?" And, you know, there's different--I don't know how it works in every state, but, you know, some states you have to have certain reasons. So if you're fired you might not be able to get unemployment, but if you're laid off you could, you know? So really that's a conversation--and it is emotional like you said, but that's really a conversation you do want to have with HR no matter what the circumstances and apply for unemployment right away if you can. If you can't apply for unemployment, you know, what I did too--you know, when I had left the second job that I got after I, you know, was laid off for a year, I actually applied to be an SAT teacher, because I was like, "Well, what other skills do I have?" And randomly I got an email, and it was from Kaplan saying, "Hey, do you want to do SAT teaching?" And I was like, "Oh, I can do that," you know? You might want to--like you said, you tapped into your freelancing. You know, think of some other things you can do with the internet. You know, there's so many opportunities to, you know, make a little money on the side to hold you over until you can find something else. And I really want to stress, you know, utilizing those resources as best as you can. If you're in your home town, you know, you might want to live with your parents. You might want to, like, rent out your apartment, you know, temporarily, Airbnb, whatever you need to do to make sure that you're stable, 'cause if you feel like you're drowning and you're on the verge of, you know, going into bankruptcy, you're not gonna be able to concentrate on getting better and healing.Zach: That's a good point, and it sounds as if really you were having to flex a few different creative muscles.Alicia: Mm-hmm. Yep, that's exactly what happened.Zach: And I think--which leads to another point. You know, not everyone is super creative and, like, industrious in that way, and so I think it's important to talk to people before you decide to leave, or if you know you're about to get fired or let go or there's some type of downsizing, have some trust and confidants around you that you can talk to as things are happening so they can maybe help you kind of navigate or they can point you in the direction of someone who can help you figure out how to--what the next season looks like.Alicia: Exactly.Zach: I know for me--I know for me, when I did leave--and I was depressed. Like, we've talked about mental health and mental wellness on Living Corporate before. I have no shame in saying that. When I quit that job, I was genuinely depressed and ended up gaining a lot of weight, and so--and did not take care of myself, and it took me--it took me some years to, like, lose that weight--and a little bit more, but to lose that weight that I had gained, and it was crazy because by the time, like, another opportunity came up that was, like, a great opportunity, and I got the job, but I wasn't in the best of shape. I wasn't at my best self, and so I think it's important as well, like, when you're in that season, that off-season, quote unquote, that you don't fall off, right? Like, go to the gym. Like, if you have--if you have some type of--whatever your belief system or structure is, pour into your local community. Like, continue to invest in yourself, that way when you show up at the next job you glowed up. Now, again, they hired you, so you have some level of [gold regards?], but for you to be at your best self--'cause I tell you, I regret not being healthier when I started my job, because I would've--you know, I would've enjoyed some things better. When I took business trips, I would have--I would have been more comfortable. I would have been able to explore the cities more, things of that nature, but I wasn't able to because I wasn't--I was not at a healthy--I wasn't physically healthy.Alicia: Yeah. And you know, I want to peel that back a little bit, you know? Like, when I was laid off as well, I was depressed, and, you know, I gained weight. I remember when I did have an interview I couldn't even fit into any of my suits, and I didn't have any money to buy a new suit 'cause I'm, you know, unemployed, but I really want to peel back. You know, a lot of people, when they find themselves in a situation, they do fall into these depressive episodes, and it's really important to--I mean, it's important to let yourself feel the emotions, but you have to tap into your support system, and I think a lot of times why we fall into those depressive episodes is because 1. because of the trauma of what happened and 2. because we assign a lot of self-worth to having a job, you know? I was embarrassed to go to, you know, events or leave the house 'cause I didn't want anyone to ask me "What are you doing? When are you finding a job?" Because I felt so ashamed to just not be having a job for the first time, you know? And I think it's really important. One of the things I did, you know, when I was, you know, unemployed the second time and I was using that me time was detaching my self-worth from what I do to get paid, you know? What my full-time employment is, and I think that's something, you know, a lot of people need their support system and help to get out of, and I think if anything I just really want to stress that part alone, that you are not your job. You're more than your job. Your job is gonna change 20 times over, and you're still gonna be that person you are.Zach: That's so true, and I believe--well, we live in a capitalistic society, and the cost of living is going up, and wages aren't necessarily matching the cost of living as it continues to increase, and so more and more folks are switching from work/life balance to work/life blend, because really our lives have become work, right? By some degree or another. That's why the gig economy is popping like it is. You know, a lot of people are doing full-time jobs and they're also Uber drivers and Favor delivers. Shout-out Favor, shout-out Uber. Y'all are not sponsors, but if y'all hear this, holla at your boy.Alicia: What's Favor? We don't have that here.Zach: So Favor is a food delivery service. It's kind of like--so y'all have Uber Eats, right?Alicia: Like Grubhub?Zach: Yeah, like Grubhub.Alicia: That's what we have.Zach: Okay. Yeah--Alicia: Okay.Zach: Y'all also have DoorDash though, right?Alicia: We do. We just got that.Zach: Listen, they getting all this free pub.Alicia: I know.Zach: But whatever, it's cool. Favor is similar to DoorDash. Anyway, it's hard not to disassociate yourself from what you do that keeps food on your table, but the more you can really align yourself with whatever--your family, your community, volunteer efforts, and things that really keep you going spiritually, mentally, emotionally, that's gonna help you, because if all you are is your job, and you lose your--Alicia: Zach? Sorry, you cut out real quick.Zach: Oh. Can you hear me now?Alicia: Sorry. Yeah, I can hear you now.Zach: Okay, cool. Because if all you have is your job and you lose your job, then what do you have? So it's important that you're always thinking about that, and I think we're in a really interesting season of self-care and mental and emotional wellness. I think those spaces have been rapidly growing over the past 6 or 7 years, especially for black and brown people, and so I think it's important, like, to invest in some things of that nature just while you have a job. Like, invest in those things while things are good, that way you're not scrambling if something changes.Alicia: Mm-hmm. It's all about foundation.Zach: It is, it is. So to your point though about, you know, being laid off or fired, it's not a mark of shame, and really there's only so much about you keeping your job that's in your control, and I think that's the thing about--there's a term when you talk about--oh, yes, job security. Yes, that's the term. So job security is a myth, but most people think "If I have a job, and I'm getting paid a salary, then I'm going to--" Like, "Nothing can happen that's gonna change me from having that job." Like, we are--we buy into a certain level of--we buy into a narrative that our jobs are extremely stable and that having a quote unquote "steady paycheck" is more reliable than, like, being an entrepreneur or whatever the case is, but, you know, the reality is unless you're, like, a VP, like, someone very senior at an organization, you're really only, like, one or two decisions away from you not having a job, right? And it's interesting as I've gotten a little bit older. Like, I'm 29, and as I've gotten a little bit older and I'm kind of moving up the ladder a little bit--I'm a manager, so I'm not in any real--I'm not making no real moves, but I see a few things differently now than I did at--like, when I was an associate or an entry-level employee, because I'm starting to see how things kind of move and push together.Alicia: Behind the scenes.Zach: Behind the scenes, and, like, when I was--and even before my current industry, which is consulting, I was an HR business partner, and I was working with the--like, with the CHRO. I was working with the COO of a start-up, and I was just noticing, "Okay--" There'd be people, like, three or four, five, six, seven levels under him, under me at the time, and in their world they're thinking, like, everything's hunky-dory, it's all great, blah-blah-blah. They don't know, like, their boss is about to get fired. They're about to get moved to a whole 'nother department. And the higher up you go, it doesn't seem like anything to you. Like, you have to really practice empathy as you get higher up because at the higher--it doesn't seem like anything to you, but to them, like, their whole world has changed, and so I'm just thinking more and more about that. Like, if you're an entry-level employee, if you're a non-executive employee, they can make one decision, and you end up moving from Department A to Department G or Department G to unemployment, and it's like that. So there's--it's not in your control. What's in your control is your attitude, your level of gratefulness, and how you show up to work every day, and then--and how flexible you're being and prepared you're being to find that next thing, but I think sometimes, because we buy into the fact that, like, these jobs are promised and that--and that things are just so secure that we can't fathom, or we kind of--I know I did. I'll speak for myself, that I really was shook when I walked away and I was like, "Wait, but I thought this was gonna work out. I thought this. I thought this. I thought that." You know? Am I making any sense?Alicia: Yep, absolutely, and I think that--I really like that emphasis of "it's not in your control," you know? You could have been the best worker, and sometimes it's just a numbers thing, you know? And I feel like once you accept that, you know--if you did your best, fine. If you didn't do your best and you got laid off, you know, really just take time to just learn from, "Okay, what could I change for next time?" I think that, you know, focusing on what you can control really can help prevent you from going into that whole spiral afterwards.Zach: And it takes a while. Like, sometimes it may take--you know, so for me, like I said, I quit that job. I was doing some freelance stuff, and I was underemployed for about 3.5, 4 months, and I've talked to people and they'll be like, "Man, Zach, that is no time." Like, "There are people who are unemployed, you know, 6 months to a year." It happens. Okay, so let's--go ahead, go ahead.Alicia: Well, I mean, speaking of that, you know, we should probably pivot into what do you do when you're unemployed and looking for that next job?Zach: No, that's super true. Okay, so figuring out what you liked and didn't like about your last position and crafting--can help you craft an ideal position and picture for your next job, right?Alicia: Yep. You know, I think a lot of times we either over-romanticize our jobs or over-demonize them, you know? So we're like, "That place was terrible," or "This is the best place I'm ever gonna work," you know? And I think it's really important to really think about what you did and didn't like about that job, and when you're going into interviews or applying to jobs, look for the signs. Again, it feels like I'm talking about a relationship, but, you know, I guess we spend so much time at work it might as well be.Zach: But it is though. You spend more time at work than you do with your family.Alicia: You do, exactly. So, I mean, I guess the same tenets apply here. So, you know, you might have really noticed, "Okay, this is what I enjoy about my position. I enjoy doing these things, and I don't enjoy doing these things." Sometimes I was even able to, like, look at job descriptions, and I could tell "This isn't the place." It wasn't gonna--like, you know, "can work without structure," you know? "Quick on her feet. Doesn't need much direction." And I was like, "So you're basically saying you don't know what you're doing, and you want me to come in and figure it out, and you're not gonna help me at all?" And I was like, "I'm good," you know? Like, you learn how to read in-between the lines after a while. I remember I said to one of my friends, "This job wants me to work 20 hours a day, I can tell." They didn't say it, but I know what "fast-paced environment" and "willing to go the extra mile" means, you know?Zach: Oh, wow. Mm-mm.Alicia: Mm-hmm. They're setting you up to be like, "This is gonna be hard," and if that's not something you want, you know, you've got to read in-between those lines. Even in the interview, you know, we get so scared asking people questions, like, the real questions about these positions, but that's your only chance to figure out if it's gonna be right for you before you get in there. So, you know, ask them, "Why did the last person leave?" You know? "What's the hardest part about this job?" You know? Or "What are the challenges of this job?" Or "Who do you think is gonna be a fit for this?" And be realistic with yourself of if what they're saying sounds right to you.Zach: Those are great--that's just great advice. You know what? Alicia, you should really have, like, a blog or something. Oh, wait! [both laugh] Okay. So no, you're right though, and it's also recognizing what your non-negotiables are, right? So for me, I know--like I said, I quit that one job 'cause it was just super toxic, but I've quit some other jobs too. Like, some of my first--I was working at a major retailer, and I realized that for me--I had to walk away from that job because the scope was way too small. Like, it was focused on a store. That was it. And so I knew that when I quit my--when I quit that job I said, "Okay, I gotta find a new job that's gonna give me more space to be autonomous and be creative and really flex some other muscles that I believe I have," and so a non-negotiable for me was working in the retail industry at a store level. Like, that was a non-negotiable--that was a non-negotiable for me. A non-negotiable was having an extremely limited scope. That was a non-negotiable for me, but you learn that after you reflect and think through what you did and did not like about your last place of employment. There's things I did like from that job, and so I took that things forward as well, but--we're just gonna keep on relationship references. Sometimes we have friends--and if you don't have any friends like this, then look in the mirror and then point at the mirror, and then you're that person--they kind of date the same person.Alicia: Mm-hmm, over and over again.Zach: Right? Over and over again. It's like, "Yo, like, you kinda got, like, a type." "No, I don't. I don't have a type." "Eh, you kind of have a type." And, like, you keep making the same mistakes with this one that you did with this one, so... and I bet your friend, or you if you look--the person looking in the mirror, you probably haven't, like, paused and reflected, "Okay, well, what is it that I like and don't like about this?" 'Cause there seems to be a pattern here. And a lot of us do that in our careers too. It's like--I have people who, like, they are serial careerists. They have--like, they'll take the same job and quit for the same reasons over and over and over and over. So it's really important that you're thinking through what's working and what isn't working.Alicia: Yeah, I agree. I agree.Zach: So this resume/cover letter refresh. Now, that's important.Alicia: Yes. So, you know, I thought my resume was pretty bomb. Like, I think my--I've always had a pretty solid resume, but you know what? I was putting out feelers, and I was getting--like, I was getting phone interviews, but I wasn't getting past the phone interviews, so I was like, "What's going on here," you know? Like, my resume's dope. One job, like, I matched it exactly. Like, and it was a pretty [inaudible] job, so I was like, "How could you not hire me?" Like, I am the one, you know? But what I did was I actually at some point got a career coach, 'cause one I was kind of not--like, I was ready to apply, but I was still feeling a little bruised from, like, you know, past experiences, worried. So, you know, a lot of the times when you're writing these cover letters, it requires you to reflect on your experiences at these past jobs, and sometimes that's causing you to live in the hurt and the trauma all over again, you know? Just writing the cover letter can be an ordeal 'cause you're just like, "Wow, that job was really terrible," and it's coming out into your cover letter how wishy-washy you were about that job, you know? So what I did was I actually got a career coach to rewrite my cover letter for me, you know? Like, I [hired?] her, and she gave me advice. She rewrote my resume, because one thing she said was, you know, "You're listing out the things you've done, but you're not really giving me that, you know, "I'm a star" kind of thing in your resume. You're mostly like, "I did this, I did this," but you're not really telling me "I accomplished this" or, like, "I'm the winner," or, like, "I'm the best 'cause of X, Y, and Z." It wasn't shining, and my cover letter was much of the same, more just listing things that I did but not really, like, spelling out why I stand out, you know? And she was teling me that, you know, I think that comes from a place of you trying to be over-humble, and you're trying to, you know, downplay yourself a little bit because you're bruised. And so, like, getting her to refresh my resume really--honestly, the results were instant in terms of call-backs, in terms of moving on to the next level, in terms of even just changing my interview style, 'cause I realized, yeah, you know, I was kind of--like, I felt like, "Okay, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am," because, like, I had been laid off before, but I was like, "No, I am as good as I think I am, and that was just an isolated incident," you know? And it's really just about your attitude, but sometimes you just need someone else to step in and do that work for you because it's too painful to do it yourself.Zach: Man, I just--I 100% agree. I think the other thing I'd like to add to the idea of a resume/cover letter refresh is a LinkedIn refresh, right? So, you know, LinkedIn is like the--I mean, LinkedIn first of all, as--I'm gonna put my futurist hat on real fast. So as millennials and Gen Z get more into the workforce and they start engaging LinkedIn, it's gonna become--and it has already, if you've noticed, become way more social and, like, almost kind of, like, Facebook in certain ways, good and bad, the point being that it's gonna become an indelible part of your identity, professional and personal. I mean, even if you Google someone's name, their LinkedIn pops up. Their LinkedIn pops up more than their Facebook does, and so, you know, make sure that you have a professional and accurate depiction of who you are and what you want to present on LinkedIn is huge too, because that can have instant results as well. I've seen certain companies--if your LinkedIn isn't popping it's kind of like, "Eh, I don't really know." Like, that can be the difference maker, to your point, between, like, a phone interview and, you know, an actual in-person--Alicia: Yeah, 'cause let's face it, everybody looks everybody up nowadays. As soon as I hear your name I'm looking you up, you know? "What can I find?" [laughs] So either--if you have a generic name you might be safe, but if you don't you better have that LinkedIn popping. And, you know, just real quick on that, you know, make sure your picture is great, or--you know, it doesn't have to be a professional head shot, but it shouldn't be, like, a selfie. It shouldn't be inappropriate. It should look like how you would probably come for an interview.Zach: It really should though. And I'ma say this, at this point--so again, a lot of this speaks to financial privilege and access. Everyone can't afford, like, a professional head shot. At the same time, these cell phones... really?Alicia: Right? [laughs] If you have an iPhone X, just go against a white wall and take that picture.Zach: Take that picture. Get a nice outfit, you know what I'm saying? Get some drip. Okay, side-note, 'cause we're in 2019, and Ade and I, we would insert slang in 2018, but we did not always give context to the slang, and I have--Alicia: Explanatory comma.Zach: Absolutely. And we have aspiring allies and non-black and brown folks who listen to the show, and people will hit me up and be like, "Hey, what does "the bag" mean?" And I'm like, "Oh, the bag is, like, the money and the wealth or the opportunity." Anyway, so drip--for everyone who's listening who doesn't know--so drip is your fit, right? So drip is not to be confused with sauce, which is more influence and swag. One can have swag and sauce but not have drip, and one can have drip but not have swag. So with all that being said, you'll be dripped out, right, in the picture. White background, iPhone X. It'll be great. Now--Alicia: As a friend of mine said, "Drip or drown."Zach: [laughs] Oh, that's funny to me. Yes, drip--Alicia: I think that's my favorite thing I've heard all year. [laughs]Zach: Drip or drown. You better--you're gonna have to drip or drown. That might be the subtitle for this little B-Side, Drip or Drown. That might be the hashtag, #DripOrDrown. And then the last thing, don't let desperation lead you to another job that won't be a good fit. That's real.Alicia: I think that's important, because you know what? I get it. Your bills are coming down. You feel like you need to get a new job ASAP. You really need to take--like I said, just make sure you're making the right decision for you. The money could look good, but, like, if it's something that's gonna make you be working 20 hours a day, and you're not the type of person that likes to work 20 hours a day--if it's something where you're gonna be working from home a lot or you're gonna be traveling, you need to make sure it's a good fit, else you're gonna end up quitting or they're gonna end up letting you go again, you know? Like, you really want to make sure that 1. this next move--a lot of times what people do is they'll start applying to any job. It's not even in their field, you know? But it's like, "Okay, well, I think I can do that." That's when you're getting desperate, and people can tell, you know? You really want to stick to what you want to do, 'cause, you know, you might be at that job for a long time, and if you want to be--Zach: You never know.Alicia: Exactly. If you want to be in consulting but you're taking a job over at hospitality, you imght end up staying there for a year, and now you have a year of something outside of your field on your resume, and you're gonna have to work to explain, you know, how it lines up, 'cause--what I always think is funny is, you know, people are very narrow-minded when they look at your resume, and they're really only looking at your last thing, and you have to do so much explaining. Like, I had a whole major in health care. All of my jobs were in health care except for one, and people only focus on the one that wasn't. And I was like, "I was only there for 3 months," you know? And it's so crazy how things like that--so that's what I'm saying. Being intentional about, you know, your next move, even if it means passing up, like, a bunch of other, you know, could be easy wins, you really want to make sure your next one is gonna move along in your career path and not just pay the bills.Zach: No, I super agree with that. You know, I kind of make--see, now, this is your fault, Alicia, 'cause you brought up relationships, 'cause now I'm thinking about all these relationship jokes. But it's kind of, like, you know, when you--you might have a breakup, but it's cold outside. Like, it's cuddle season, and so, you know, it's like, "Man, I gotta find somebody."Alicia: Oh, no. Yeah, don't get a warm body job.Zach: [laughs] Yo. Don't get anybody. Don't get a rebound joke is my point. Like, you've gotta, you know, find somebody that is going to put a ring on it or that you will put a ring on. I don't know. You know, everybody's proposing to everybody. It's no problem, no judgment, but the point is figure out what is gonna really be stable for you, 'cause--this is two things. First of all, people very much so underestimate time, and underestimate it in terms of how fast it can go by, and the fact that you can't take it back. So to your point earlier, you said about a year in hospitality. Like, you can look up, and you're gonna have--there are people who are like, "I got this job 5 years ago 'cause I just wanted something 'cause I got laid off and I was just trying to find something," and you look up and it's like, okay, this is your job now, and you don't like it, or you've been doing this thing for a year and a half, 6 months to a year, and then you try to interview somebody--you try to interview for what you really want, and people are like, "Okay, well, why were you doing this?" Like, what are you going to say? And not to say that you're stuck. I mean, it happens, but it's gonna take a little bit more work in how you craft your story and convince interviewers that, "Okay, no, I'm really actually interested in this." Now, I would think that folks with a modicum of empathy and logic would recognize that life happens and that we don't always find--land in the jobs that we want, but often times, like you said--like, it's weird. Like, people put on these weird blinders during interviews and don't always think about context and how just things shift and change and everyone isn't the same, but anyway, this has been great, this has been great. Alicia, what else do we have? Before we go--you go ahead.Alicia: Before I go, I just want to ask--the last question was, you know, if you're an interview and it comes up "Why did you leave your last job?" And it's not exactly an easy answer, that's something you want to practice ahead of time, 'cause that's always gonna come up, you know? You know, one of the things I said when I was laid off was, you know, "My company was going in a different direction. We were shifting from the work that I was doing to a different sector, and that's not something I wanted to do, so, you know, we agreed it wasn't a fit and I left." And another job, the one that I was there for 3 months, I told them, you know, it was a temp job, 'cause basically [inaudible]. It just didn't transfer over into full-time, you know? So don't lie, but have some sort of, you know, palatable truth into your interviews, and practice your answers so that you're not coming off nervous or, you know, it feels like there's something shady going on there. I think that's really important, but I do want to stress that most places, at least in New York--you know, your employer--your past employer shouldn't tell your next employer that you were fired, because that would mess up your chances of getting a new job. I think there's some legality to that.Zach: No, that's illegal.Alicia: Yeah. It is, right?Zach: It's illegal, yeah.Alicia: Exactly. So I want you to have that comfort in knowing that, you know, you kind of are getting a fresh slate as long as, you know, you kind of know how you're gonna work it. Don't feel like it's gonna be, like, a scarlet letter that follows you for the rest of your life.Zach: No, that's super true, and it's interesting because you really gotta figure out ways to politicize--not politicize, but politic that answer. So for me, you know, I was at a major retailer for, like, less than a year, and so even now--I'm 7 years into my career, and people will say, "Okay, well, you know, why were you here?" And I'm like, "Well, you know, that really gave me the--" Like, my answer now is "That really helped me baseline some HR knowledge and best practices. However, I realized that the scope of that retailing context was not conducive for my professional development, and so I ended up finding X, Y, and Z," and I just kind of transition. And I think it's also important, now that we're talking about just how you interview and walk through your career, that you have, like, a story and a overarching narrative that you're speaking to. So if you talk about it from that perspective, then you're kind of--you're talking about these jobs as just points in your journey and not necessarily "I was this, I was this, I was that." It's--for me as an example, I'll say something like, "My name is Zachary Nunn. I'm very passionate about people." And so you'll see in my career, as you look at my resume, all of the roles that I have involve people, and then from there I just kind of walk through the story of "I was here, then I was in oil and gas, then I was in pharmaceuticals. Now I'm in consulting," and it makes sense, as opposed to, like I said, having, like, a really segmented story, 'cause that's how people like to--that's an older way of thinking, but just remember we're transitioning now into a much more fluid workforce, and it's okay to be in different places and have different experiences, but--Alicia, to your point, I 100% agree that you have to have some practice and verbiage behind how you're gonna spin that.Alicia: Yep.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been dope, and like I said, this is the first one of its kind. This has been pretty fun for me. Have you had a good time?Alicia: I had a great time.Zach: Okay. Before we let you go, where can people learn more about Cubicles and Curls?Alicia: Okay. So you can learn more about Cubicles and Curls on our blog, CubiclesAndCurls.com, or you can follow us on Instagram @CubiclesAndCurls. Sometimes I'm on Twitter, and that's just @CubiclesCurls, but, you know, Instagram is definitely the place where you'll usually find me.Zach: Aye. Awesome. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com or living-corporate.co or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org.Alicia: Ooh.Zach: I know. Yeah, that's right, Alicia. We got 'em all. We don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia owns livingcorporate.com.Alicia: Hm.Zach: I know, right? It's crazy. It's crazy. Anyway, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Alicia Davis, founder and CEO of Cubicles and Curls. Peace.Alicia: Peace.

We have the honor of speaking with battle rapper and musician Chilla Jones about his unique career journey, pursuing your dreams, navigating between the full-time and entrepreneurship space, and the difficulty of juggling your passion and your 9-5. Check out Chilla's website, IG, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to another B-Side. Now, look, we talked about B-Sides in season one. This is season two of Living Corporate. For those who don't know, B-Sides are basically random episodes in-between our larger episodes where we just kind of kick it, you know? Sometimes we have conversations with just me and Ade. Sometimes they're, like, kind of extended monologues, just me or Ade. Often times though, most times, they're conversations with, like, special guests, like, one-on-one discussions, and I'ma tell you, this time--this time this one's special for me, okay? Now, y'all might not know, but I'm actually a huge--I love rap in general, right? I love rap, and I love battle rap a lot. Y'all know those air horns y'all hear in the shows, like [imitating them]? That's actually inspired by battle rap, specifically Ultimate Rap Battle League, URL, and the reason why is because battle rap, to me, it combines public speaking, retention, charisma, improvisation, crowd control, all at the same time, right? And clearly y'all can tell I enjoy talking, so it's obviously a clear intersect for me. Anyway, I was always a big follower of it as a kid, but, you know, life goes on. I kind of let it fade. Well, back when I was in college I stumbled upon a battle rapper who really got me back in the game. If you can imagine Jay-Z but as a battle rapper, that's a crude reduction of who and kind of what this style is, okay? So our guest for today's B-Side is Jerome Jones, A.K.A. Kingpin, A.K.A. Juggernaut, A.K.A. Chilla, A.K.A. Bosstown, A.K.A. your favorite writer's favorite writer, Chilla Jones. Chilla Jones is a musician and battle rapper hailing from Boston, Massachusetts, New England. He has released several projects, but you most likely know him from battle rap. He's traveled all across the world. He's making a name for himself as one of the biggest writers to ever engage the arena. Chilla, how's it going, man?Chilla: My guy. What's going on, man? Peace up. What's good? We out here, man.Zach: We out here, man. Look, man--so look, today, man, we're talking about pursuing your dreams, you know, navigating between your full-time and the entrepreneur space. What was it like for you, and like--and you working your 9-5. When did you start really being like, "Look, I need to pursue this battle rap thing. I want to pursue this music thing."? What has it been like to juggle that? What did it look like when you got started? You know, of course we see you now. You're in--you know, you've gone to London, you've been all over the world. Of course all over the U.S., but [inaudible], you know, you've been to parts in Europe. Of course you've been in Canada often. You know, what has that journey been like for you?Chilla: It's huge, bro, and, you know, back in the day--you know, I'd been, you know, doing the 9-5 thing since I was, you know, fresh out of high school, 18 years old, and so, you know, that's kind of always been a part of my adult life, but, you know, as time went on I really devoted more and more of my personal time into music or into battle rap, depending on the era, and so--it's very interesting having to juggle both because--you know, especially nowadays. I have so many opportunities that present themselves that might require me to, you know, as you said, be in Canada or be in London or, you know, I went to Australia recently, which was a really eye-opening experience, you know? I get offers to go everywhere from, you know, Ireland to New Zealand to Amsterdam to--you know, all off the strength of my talent and my ability, so, you know, I never quite thought that I would get to travel the world and, you know, kind of expand my horizons just off the strength of my God-given talent. It's definitely a blessing, but it definitely is a sacrifice, man. You know, it's definitely--when you're thinking of transitioning from that 9-5 to, you know, doing something you love full-time, or even if you're not doing it full-time, if you're deciding to kind of devote a little bit more time to it than the normal person, you're literally having to decide and juggle between, you know, kind of having that steady income or, you know, kind of--kind of diving into something where you might be eating ramen noodles for a week, you know, waiting on your next gig, you know what I'm saying? And so I've kind of--I've kind of balanced both sides of that, and so, you know, luckily I have a job that is very understanding. They're aware of my career and very supportive, so, you know, they give me all of the flexibility that I might need, whether that's--you know, I might only be at work a couple days of the month because I might be, you know, traveling so much during that particular month, you know? And they support me, and they're very supportive in that, and I'm very lucky to kind of that situation to where I can always know that if I don't have any battles or if I don't have any shows or, you know, if I don't have anything on the rap side that's helping to contribute to my income, I have a job that I can--that I can kind of rely on for that, and, you know, when I do have all of these gigs and stuff like that, I'm not--you know, I'm not having to sacrifice the 9-5 that I have, and so I kind of have a really, really good situation worked out for me right now, but it's definitely--you know, I've been in situations where my job wasn't so supportive, and so I've had to make decisions like, "Okay, I can take this offer and go to Canada for 4 days, and I don't have any more paid time off at work, and I know if I can't make these two shifts, then I might not have a job when I get back. So, you know, I've had to make those decisions and kind of try to--try to do what's best for me in the long run, and so you really just gotta believe in yourself at the end of the day. You really just have to believe that you're doing the right thing, and you gotta follow your dreams, man. There's nothing--there's nothing worse than, you know, feeling like you didn't give it your all, and that's always just kind of what I've--what I've always kind of gone by and stood by, is like I would rather, you know, go for my dreams and fail than to stay stuck at a 9-5 and just always wonder "What if?" Like, you never want to wonder--you never want to wonder "What if," you know what I mean? That's my stance.Zach: Yeah, man. Yeah, and it's funny you talk about your job. That was actually another question I had. So, like, what does it look like, right, when you--so you show up--of course for those who don't know, right, like, who haven't seen you do your thing, whatever whatever. You know, you're a black man, and you're a moderately tall person. You're a--I wouldn't say, like, you're a scary, imposing--you're not, like, you know, sloppy like Suge or nothing like that, but, you know, you're a large black man. Like, what does it look like when you articulate to people, "Hey," you know? When you talk to your employer, "Hey, I'm a battle rapper." Like, how do those conversations go, and how does that--you know, you say they're supportive. You know, what does that--what does that look like, just to kind of, like, broach the topic and then talk about your profession?Chilla: Right. I mean, honestly it was--you know, initially it was something that I--that I hid, you know? And I think a lot of us, us battle rappers, do that, you know? I hid my career from my job, and so, you know, at first I would say "Oh, I'm going out of town for this reason," or that reason, and, you know, "I need to be off. I need to leave on Friday," and, you know, "I'll be back Sunday night or Monday morning," and so I'd name this shift or that shift that I'm scheduled for, and, you know, doing that a couple of times, they really--they really don't trip, but as it--as it happens more often and more consistently, I kind of--I kind of just thought in my head, like, you know, "The only way this is going to work and work in my favor is if I'm honest," and so I actually had just got offered a promotion, and, you know, the promotion was kind of to a lofty position, and they--you know, as we were in the office and we were discussing salary and everything like that, you know, I figured that was a really good time to kind of be honest, and so--you know, I told them I was interested in the position and I would love to the job, but I have a career, and this is what I do, and this is what that looks like, and this is what I need from you if you want me to do this position for you. And so, you know, I need flexibility on your end for me to be able to do A, B, and C, and if I can do that, then when I'm here and I'm working I will give you flexibility on D, E, and F, you know what I mean? And so it's definitely a compromise there, and like I said, they are in support of it. They will even watch my battles, and they'll come to work and quote certain things that I've said, and it's so weird because it's such a--you know, the environment that I work in, you would never expect, you know, to have, you know, 40-year old, 50-year old, you know, Caucasian men and women or [inaudible] with all types of different, you know, backgrounds and, you know, all types of different, you know, places that they've grown up in and things that they're interested in. Like, you know, I don't think anybody where I work is even interested in hip hop to be for real, you know what I mean? It's other things like that, but, you know, they take an interest in it because, you know, they see that I'm good at it, that I have a talent, and they see where it takes me and where I go and how long I'm gone and the kind of money I make when I'm not there, and so it's just a--it's just a really, really beautiful situation, and so, you know, it really, really helps to have the support of your higher-ups, because they, you know, are just so understanding, and they allow you to do what you need to do, and they understand that, although it is a priority, you know, it's just a means to an end, you know what I mean? So that was a--that was a big turning point for me in my career, to have their support and to have their kind of--you know, them behind me in terms of me being able to go after what I'm trying to go after.Zach: Well, I would imagine, man, it's also, like, a weight off your back, right? Because it's one less thing you gotta worry about, right? The more transparently you can move while you do--while you pursue your passions, the more energy you're gonna have for your passions, right? So, like, I would imagine you just being able to just kind of be more of yourself and bring more of yourself frankly to work. Not that you're gonna be scheming on your boss, but you can just kind of--you know, you can be yourself and let people know what you're about. When you leave, you say, "Hey, I gotta go." Like you said, you're not having to kind of create stories and excuses and narratives and things of that nature. So, you know, you talked about--you talked about the travel and the doors that battle rap and your really--again, just kind of beyond just battle rap, your music has opened for you. Would you mind talking a little bit about Drop the Mic? I'm not asking you to share any secret sauce or anything like that, but kind of talk to us about how that opportunity happened. And for those who don't know, y'all, Drop the Mic--when y'all see, like, these celebrities and they're, like, rapping against each other, that's a TV show called Drop the Mic, right? And Chilla Jones is involved in that. So yeah, you go ahead, man.Chilla: Yeah. You know, so the opportunity first presented itself through another battler named Rome, and so Rome at one point was one of the contributing head writers on the show, in the very first season, and so, you know, he had a little leverage and a little leeway to kind of be able to--you know, he and the executive producer by the name of Jensen Karp. You know, Jensen was formally a battle rapper in the California, Los Angeles, scene. And so, you know, he is a big battle rap fan. You know, he knows, like, you know, the sources and the [inaudible] and a lot of those people from back in the day, the early [inaudible]. WRCs, [inaudible], in that kind of era. So, you know, it was very important for Jensen to incorporate some of the new age, you know, battle rappers into the show in terms of having them contribute by, you know, either assisting in the writing process or in coaching some of the celebrities to, you know, make sure when they go on stage they sound as good as possible. And so during that very first season, you know, they both reached out to me in regards to helping and contributing on the show, and, you know, obviously my kind of reputation as, you know, the Kingpin or, you know, one of the greatest writers in battle rap, it kind of seems like a no-brainer to have me involved in that process. And so, you know, they reached out to me. I went out to Hollywood. I was able to work with, you know, Wayne Brady, Jake Owen, Boyz II Men, Rascal Flatts. A bunch of different--a bunch of different people who were all really dope, humble, down-to-earth celebrities, and, you know, I got a chance to work with them and, you know, help them construct their lines and teach them the best ways to rap it or flow it over the beat, and man, I've been on every season since, you know what I mean? And so it's a very dope process. I've got a chance to meet and network with a lot of dope people. I love the concept of the show. I think it's a genius show. Salute to Method Man as well, who had a big hand in bringing me on as well. Method co-hosted my battle with Daylyt in 2014. He's been a big fan as well as a mentor ever since. He always keeps in touch and, you know, he also was somebody who cosigned bringing me on the show as well. So it's just been a really humbling experience, man. That's just one of the many things that battle rap has done for me and has allowed me to do, and it's just--it's really humbling, you know? I never thought that battle rap would lead to so many different avenues, you know, that could [inaudible], you know what I mean? It's just--it's really been a humbling and a wonderful thing.Zach: You know, and speaking of that battle, when you hit that blue meth line in that battle against Daylyt, I saw Method's face in the background and I was like, "Oh, I bet they're gonna be cool after this." Like, that was one of my favorite battles also. Yeah, so let's keep it going. So I'm curious, man, and I don't want to get you in trouble, and this is not a battle rap podcast, but you know I'm a battle rap fan. Let me ask you this. If you had to look at--if you look at the battle rap scene today, who are--out of the new guard, right, who out there is in your atmosphere, right? So are you looking at Loso? Twork? A-Ward? Like, who out there this year are you like, "Yo, you gotta face these bars."? Like, who out there is on your list?Chilla: As far as, you know, people I want to see in the near future, A. Ward for sure is in there. I would love to battle Nitty. I would like to battle Loso, but you know what's funny? Me and Loso, as well as me and A. Ward, we're actually al pretty close, you know what I mean? They're both two guys that are humble. They're smart, they're talented, and, you know, I kind of make it a habit when I come across certain people to reach out and just be like, "Yo, if you need something, if there's anything I can do," you know, any advice I can give you. You know, I always extend myself to the new guard to let them know that, you know, I'm here as a support--as a veteran, as a support system. You know, if there's anything you need, like, you know, I'm here for that, and those are two guys that have both definitely taken advantage of that, but the funny thing is I still want to destroy A. Ward, you know what I mean? Like, me and A. Ward are so competitive that, you know, that battle is still gonna happen, and, you know, it's still gonna be an amazing battle, but on the flip side it's--like, I don't know that I can see myself battling Loso, and it's not even that I'm closer with Loso, but me and Loso just have a different type of--a different type of relationship. I'm not saying it could never happen, but I guess I'm just saying that I'm more anxious and eager to battle A-Ward. But A-Ward, Nitty for sure, Ave--I'm really close to Ave too. I think Ave is amazing. Ave is also on my list. I would love to battle him. I think it would be a really good battle.Zach: That'd be a great battle. Now, you skimmed over Twork. Was that on purpose? Are you--Chilla: Those are the names that come to mind. I think Twork's dope, and I would battle Twork as well, but I don't know. Zach: All right, bet. Bet, bet. So, you know, it's interesting because--so to your point about the people that you named, right, I definitely think--so when I look at, like, that four horsemen group--so of course, you know, you and I have had conversations before, like, when you and Saga battled and you was kind of clowning him about the thing, and I was like, "Aye," you know? Whatever whatever, but out of the four horsemen I actually think A. Ward has all of the elements--like, his pen to me is the most aggressive and impressive in terms of the fact that he can do--he kind of does everything really well, right? Like he has the--he always has a crazy scheme in the second round. He starts off with some nice personals. He wraps it up at the end with, like, a Christian gospel presentation at the end, which of course I find is dope. I'm biased in that way. [laughs] And then of course you got Nitty, who I just think--I really think, man, he's up there, man. Like, I think he would--I really think--so A. Ward would be an entertaining battle, you know? Loso would be cool. I think that Nitty, like, honestly, man, would give you, like--I think Nitty would give you your best challenge though, I do.Chilla: Oh, for sure. No, I agree. I think Nitty--right now, you know, my honest opinion is that me, Nitty, and JC are kind of the three best pens.Zach: I agree with that.Chilla: And so, you know, obviously me and JC have already gone to war and so have JC and Nitty, and so yeah. I agree with you 1000%. If we're talking bar for bar, if we're talking pen for pen, yeah, nobody's gonna give me a tougher match than probably Nitty and, you know, maybe Twork, you know what I mean? If that ever happens.Zach: Yeah, if it happens, if he--you know what I'm saying, if he comes ready and all that stuff, you know, all those various elements, I think--I think what's scary about Nitty is I don't think we've--I think he's had a couple of stumbles, but when you talk about consistency, man, like, he's up there. Like, him, when you talk about--let's take, like, a kind of, like, pivot for a second. So when you talk about consistent battle rappers, it's like, what, him--A. Ward's pretty consistent, but him, DNA, Danny Myers. Like, them cats are, like, very, very consistent, man. You ain't gotta really worry about if he's gonna come at you--not even if he's gonna get his bars out. So being that you never have to worry about him getting his bars out, but sometimes you're like, "Eh, these bars are kind of [inaudible]," but then, like, Nitty it's like--not only do you not have to worry about him getting his bars out, them bars gonna be crazy when they come out, right? And so, you know, it's just--I'm really curious, man. I'm trying to see what's going on, you know? Of course we're all--I follow the news and stuff, and I'm hearing about, you know, people that you might be battling, but I'm really excited to see some of 'em, and I think 2019 is gonna be a crazy year. You've been on top for a while, you know? And you talked just a second about, you know, being a mentor. You know, what--and you say, you know, you offer your services and your time. You know, what are things that you wish folks would have helped you with as you kind of got into it? Like, after you whooped Interstate Flames, and after you beat Gatman Jones, and then after you beat M. Ciddy, and then you beat Cash Eatin. And, like, at what point--at what point was it like, "Okay, can somebody help me?" Like, did anyone kind of help pull you aside and kind of pour into you, or did you kind of have to find out things the hard way? Chilla: For the most part, man, I had to find out things the hard way, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't really--being that, you know, A. I was from Boston, and, you know, there was kind of nobody before me from Boston, and so I--you know I didn't have a path to follow. I had to create one, and, you know, there was kind of nobody that I could reach out to or anything like that. So I'll tell you for the most part I had to kind of learn everything, but I can tell you back in those days, you know, there were some people that helped, you know? Mickey Factz was a big mentor for me, you know, in terms of helping me make certain career decisions, and a great person to spar with, and he's a very, very tough critic as far as you let him kind of hear your material. Stuff that you might think is amazing he might hear and be like, "Eh, you can do better," you know what I mean? And so he was a really, really important part of the elevation of my pen and the, you know, versatility that I began to show over time, but I do wish I had more of that on the battle rap side, you know, from somebody who actually battled back then, because at that time Mickey hadn't really jumped in the ring yet. He was still just, you know, an underground artist that everybody kind of knew about and followed the culture, but I didn't have anybody within, you know, as a battle rapper within the culture really take me under their wing or anything like that, and, you know, leading into the DNA battle and even after the DNA battle, I feel like that's something that that would've been the time where I would've needed it the most, you know what I mean? And I kind of didn't have that, and so that's part of the reason why I extend myself, especially to certain people. Like, when I look at Loso I'm like, "Man, you don't--there's nobody else that I know of from Tampa that's, you know, making as much noise as you are as far as battle rap, and so you probably don't have that person." I mean obviously he has John John, 'cause he came up through BullPen. So I know he definitely has some people in his corner, you know, and it's kind of the same thing with A. Ward. He's from Missouri, so obviously there's the Hitmans, the Verbs, but he's also from Kansas City. He's not from St. Louis.Zach: Right, it's different spaces.Chilla: Exactly, way different spaces, and so, you know for a lot of those guys that I know are coming from maybe some towns or some markets where, you know, they're kind of creating a path for their town or their city, I like to kind of extend myself and say, "Yo, if you ever need anything, if you need to run your bars by someone, if you have any career questions about what battles you should take or anything like that, you know, inside and outside of battle rap, man. Just, you know, in life in general, man. Just know that I'm a resource here for you that you can use whenever necessary." And so, you know, at the end of the day I just--I see it every day, and I think we all see it as black men. We see talent go by the wayside a lot of times, whether that's, you know, people falling victim to the streets or jail or whatever the case, and then, you know, even within battle rap there's a lot--there's a lot of people with extreme talent that we see don't live up to their potential.Zach: So look, man. Let's talk about it. You're absolutely right. Then to your point though around just people in your circle, making sure they're holding you accountable and being like, "Hey, you know that bar wasn't really that great." You know, you can kind of tell if you're a fan and you're listening to the--you're watching these battles, like, who had someone who they sparred with who told them the truth, and then who had maybe just a bunch of yes men or they rushed it and wrote it at the last minute? They didn't really have anyone holding them accountable, and I think--you know, I think in any realm, in corporate, creative, music, whatever the space is, you need someone who's gonna kind of keep it 100 with you, otherwise you walk out here talking about that Surf/Twork battle when he said, "Think witch's parking lot - all brooms." I was like, "What does that mean, sir?" Like, what does that--what does that mean? Like, what are you saying, right? You know? And there's plenty of people we can name. This is not a--it's not no disrespect to nobody, but it's just--like, there's value in that mentorship, and to your point, right, as black men, like, it's obvious when you see talent go by the wayside in a variety of spaces for a variety of reasons, and when you--and it hurts because you can see the potential. You're like, "Man, I know you want it. I know you want to do better than this. I know that you don't want to be rapping like this," right? "I know that you don't want to be performing like this. I know that you want to be the best you can be," and what sucks about battle rap is that it's on such a public stage, right? So it's like you can't--you don't have the luxury of failing in moderate privacy. Like, you're failing in front of, like, potentially hundreds of thousands of people online, right? Well, look--go ahead. No, keep going.Chilla: No, I was gonna say it's--you know, that was what I learned with, you know, the DNA battle and, you know, I mean, even though I feel like I won that battle, I feel like it was [inaudible].Zach: It was a--it was a body bag, but yeah. [inaudible].Chilla: Yeah, but there was a lot to be learned, because that was--you know, I went from battling in front of 400-500 people to battling in front of 3,000 people. I went from getting, you know, 200,000-300,000 views on my battles to 700,000-800,000 views. Like, that was a huge step up for me in terms of name and tier and everything like that, and so coming into the--coming into the sport, you know, the DNA battle was maybe my sixth battle ever, and so it's different--it's different when you look at other people, like, say, John John Da Don. John John Da Don had maybe 12 battles on Grind Time before he even walked onto URL, and so he was able to take that experience with him to a new league and kind of dominate, because he had already kind of worked out the flaws in his style. He had already figured out the best way to memorize his bars. He had mastered performing in front of certain groups of people. And so for me, I had to learn in front of the world, and so it was--it was such a big, different--it was such a different environment for me than for a lot of the other people that we look at as stars today, because they had--they had the opportunity to groom themselves in their leagues and have between 10 and 20 battles before they went to URL. I had the two battles that you had talked about earlier on this podcast, which was the Gatman Jones and the Interstate Flamez. Those were the only two battles I had in this format before I stepped foot on the biggest league in the world. So imagine--so, like, imagine LeBron playing two high school games before he gets called up to the NBA, you know what I mean?Zach: It was a crazy jump, man, because you went from--yeah, you did. So you went Gatman, Interstate, and they were crazy body bags, so then--so the buzz got quick, right? Your stock went crazy up, then you went--correct me if I'm wrong. Was it Cash Eatin then M. Ciddy then JC?Chilla: Yeah.Zach: Yeah. So it was Cash Eatin, bodied. M. Ciddy--you know, at the time classic, whatever whatever, then JC of course a certified classic. Then from there--in that room, how big--how many people were in that room with you and JC? Like, 500? Like, how many people?Chilla: Me and JC was probably like 250, 300. It was a really small room, intimate space.Zach: Small room, yeah.Chilla: Small room, intimate space, but the energy in that room, man, I'll never forget it. Such an amazing energy.Zach: Crazy energy in that room. So you go from a small--and again, a small room battle where everybody's gonna feel the bars more, whatever whatever, to this, like--and admittedly, 'cause I came from--when I was watching battle rap as a kid, Chilla, I was watching it, like, with--you know, of course everybody, every millennial who watches battle rap knows the Serius Jones/Murda Mook battle. So, like, that was the kind of vibe I was used to, [Jin's battles?]. Like, those were the types of the spaces, and so I was even kind of taken aback when I was watching you rap, and I was like, "Dang, okay. This is crazy. This stage is really big." Like, "This is completely different." You got Kevin Durant in the background. You got a huge--it's like an auditorium, right? It's a theater. And so yeah, it's crazy, man. It was a crazy jump, man, but it's interesting, and, you know, I'm trying to take my fanboy hat off, 'cause part of me is like--1. it's great that you chose to learn and grow from that. I've seen--I could see another angle of--and I've seen this in other battle rappers that we don't have to namedrop, right?--where it's like you can be stubborn and be like, "Nah, I was just ahead of my time. Y'all weren't ready at the time. If I was to do that now it would be crazy, and I'm not gonna change," right? But you made a decision to start doing other things, right, what you kind of highlighted in that Prep battle when you talked about you got--you got angles, personals, you know, you have all these different weapons now, and you grew from that. Man, this has been a great conversation. I'm curious, you know, you have a ton of bars, right? Like, you have a ton of schemes, battles, people that you've battled. You know, if you had to say, like, one of your favorite punches, your favorite schemes, you know, what--do you have one that you kind of, like, think about often? If so, would you mind kind of, like, breaking it down?Chilla: Let me think. I mean, recent memory... there's a couple. So there's one in my battle versus Iron Solomon, and it's in the first round, and it's a Celtics scheme. And so it says something--it's something along the lines of--so first I'll do the scheme, and then I'll break it down. So it goes, "My fans strong in the building, of course I'ma sell tics so save the hatin'. You think it's Rozier on this side, but be Smart before you make a statement, 'cause Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Say the wrong thing and Ks is wavin', that Larkin sparkin'. You'll be taking more shots in Boston than Jayson Tatum." Right, and so it actually starts before that, but I'll get into that in a second. And so how I introduce the scheme is I say something like, "I'm hands on. You came for God, and hey, word. I told him "break a leg" from the jump, just hope his punches don't land wrong. My fans strong in the building." So you came for "God, and hey, word," so that's Gordon Hayward. "I told him "break a leg" from the jump, just hope your punches don't land wrong." So that's about his injury last year when he--you know, he broke a leg when he jumped and he landed wrong. And so then it goes into "My fans strong in this building. Of course I'ma sell tics, so save the hatin'." Sell tics, Celtics. "You think it's Rozier on this side, but be Smart before you make a statement." So that's "you think it's Rozier," Terry Rozier, on this side. "Well, be Smart," Marcus Smart, before you make a statement, 'cause Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Jaylen Brown. Brown-nosing will only cause more issues. Marcus Morris. "Say the wrong thing and Ks is wavin', that Larkin sparkin'." So back then we had a backup point guard named Shane Larkin. "That Larkin sparkin'. You'll be taking more shots in Boston than Jayson Tatum." So it's like, Gordon Hayward, Terry Rozier, Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Morris, Shane Larkin, Jayson Tatum. So it's, like, seven or eight Celtics players in that Celtics scheme. So for personal reasons, battling a legend like Iron Solomon in Boston--and I don't get very many battles in Boston nowadays--to be able to do a Boston Celtics scheme while they were in the middle of a crazy playoff run without Kyrie Irving was really, really dope to me. The other scheme that comes to mind [inaudible] that I really like was a scheme I did versus Gjonaj. It was the Super Mario scheme.Zach: Oh, yes, yes.Chilla: Let me see if I remember this one off the top of my head. I wish I could also remember what he said, because he had a line about Super Mario in his third round, but I kind of rebuttaled it with lines of Super Mario 3. "I'm making moves behind the scenes. Who's whistleblowing?" Zach: Oh, I remember that, yeah.Chilla: Yeah, which if you're a Mario fan that's dope. Super Mario 3, you can run behind the level, behind the background, and when you blow the whistle you warp to a different--to a different world. And so in response I said, "I needed talks like this when I got in the game. This is a lot like--" I said, "You're right, this is a lot like Super Mario. I know, I first thought it was strange, but they battle rap 'cause a good job is not in their range, and they don't want to jump up to hit the block for change. Haters will try to put your face on a bullet if they the jealous type. The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she let you pipe. Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life."Zach: Oh, my God.Chilla: "But the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stay with you, but when you get bigger, they'll do anything to belittle you. But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." So the whole scheme is--the whole scheme is, like, all Mario'd out. So "Jump up and hit the block for some change." Obviously if you've played Mario, you jump up, you hit the blocks, the coins come out. "Haters will try to put your face on a bullet." So there are bullets in Mario that have faces on them that fly at you. "The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she lets you pipe," so Princess Peach, and obviously in Mario you go down the pipes into the different levels and warp zones and things like that. "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night." So Boo is the name of the ghost that if you run toward it it stays still, and if you turn your back to it it flies towards you to get you. So "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life." So 1-up is the green mushroom that gives you an extra life. "And the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you." So when you're an up-and-comer and you're learning and developing, everybody's on your team, but then also in the Mario sense, when you get a mushroom you grow. "When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you, but when you get bigger they'd do anything to belittle you." So whether it's on Mario when you get hit with a shell or a fireball or a plant or something happens, you get smaller. They'd do anything to belittle you. "But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." When you get the star, nothing can kill you. So the whole--that whole scheme is--yeah, it's just, like, 8, 12 bars of just Mario references, but also relating it to him. Kind of funny it ties into what we were talking about earlier, but it's like I'm almost mentoring him. I'm telling him--you know, the whole thing is me saying, you know, "We battle rap because some of us can't get a good job for whatever reason," so we battle rap because we don't want to go to the streets. We don't want to jump up and hit the block for some change. "Haters will try to put your face on a bullet if they're the jealous type." People will try to kill you for your fame. "The best advice: she ain't your princess 'cause she lets you pipe." Just because she sees you're famous and has sex with you doesn't mean she's really down for you. "Your boo gonna make moves behind your back, having sex at night, 'cause if y'all split, having 1-up on you will give her extra life." She's gonna do you dirty because in the end, if you guys end up breaking up, she wants to feel like she has something on you. "And the most important thing, love from the fans ain't unconditional. When there's much room for growth, they campaign and they stick with you." They love you as an up-and-comer. "When you get bigger, they'd do anything to belittle you." When you hit a certain tier and you stop being the underdog, all fans want to do is see you lose. "But win or lose, star power makes you invincible." So whether or not you're winning or losing battles, if you have that charisma, if you have that star power, you'll continue to grow and [inaudible]. So I was, like, totally mentoring him, but at the same time breaking him down using Mario references. So that's probably one of my favorite schemes ever, but that's from the battle I did with Gjonaj. I want to say this was 2017--Zach: Was it 2016?Chilla: I don't know if it was 2016 or 2017. I want to say it was 2017 to be honest, but--Zach: Oh, right. It just hit 2019. You're right. It was 2017, man. Yeah.Chilla: It was 2017, yeah. So it'll be 2 years in April that that battle came out--that that battle happened, I'm sorry. But yeah, that's easily--especially because he had the Mario line in the third round and this kind of came after it. Easily one of my favorite schemes that I've ever done. Like, the way it's put together, I just think it's so good. So good.Zach: Nah, man. It was phenomenal. I remember that battle, and it was--so my homeboy E. Mike--I'm actually gonna drop his name--we were watching it at his apartment, and man, he heard that, and he had--I think he had his phone, and he threw his phone across the spot. Like, he was shocked. It was so funny. I was like, "That is crazy." See, I thought you were gonna say--first of all though of course, phenomenal choice. Like, how can I critique you on the choices? I asked a question and you gave me your favorite schemes. I thought that you were gonna talk about that third round scheme against JC when you said, "We handle MACs well, so whatever I'm aiming will leave your baby face on that black street." Chilla: Oh, the R&B scheme. Zach: Yes, that was crazy.Chilla: I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many schemes that I can reference. I mean, obviously that's a really good one. The music instrument scheme in that same battle, the car parts scheme in that same battle. M. Ciddy I had the Out of This World scheme, which was like--there's so many schemes that I could mention. I tried to pick something that was fairly recent.Zach: And they were clean too.Chilla: Yeah, but there's so many, like--man, I probably have 25 to 30 schemes that I could have picked, you know, that I really, really like. Like, I have a--especially over time, man, I've--my standards for schemes have gone up because A. because I have a reputation for them, but also B. because people do them so much that, you know, I have to separate myself. So it would be different if I was the only person doing it. You know, my standards wouldn't have to be so high, but the fact that every battler tries to scheme at some point in their career and at some point in most of their battles, like, I have to--I have to have a--I have to be at a level that shows a clear difference of, like, "That's why they say he's the best at scheming. He's way better than everybody else." And so I try to put it together in a way that gives people that impression.Zach: Well, you know, what I'm excited about, and I'm just happy that you were able to join the podcast, because, you know, we--the type of people we try to interview, right--so we try to interview corporate professionals, social influencers, and then creatives, right? Non-white in all those different spaces, and I think, you know, your space is unique because, you know, there are just very few people who can do what you do, and it's exciting because I feel as if on our podcast, the guests that we have, they all have, like, really unique talents, skill sets, experiences, perspectives. So as I let you go, and before I do that rather, what, if any, projects do you want to shout out? Do you have anything you want to plug? Anything you want to talk about? Any parting words? Anything going on at all?Chilla: So shout-outs, first and foremost King of the Dot Championship, London, England, March 3rd. Make sure you guys tune in. It's Chilla Jones versus Head Ice for the King of the Dot Championship. If you're not into battle rap, if you don't follow battle rap, this is a really good event for you to get started. You can get a pay-per-view and watch it live on your computer, your mobile phone, your Xbox, your PlayStation, your Amazon Fire Stick, your smart TV. However you want to do it. Definitely get involved with the culture. See what we're about. See what I am about. Also I want to give a big shout-out to my bro. Me and my brother have a big project coming out in 2019 musically. I haven't put out a music project since 2014. I'm super, super excited about it. A lot of big features. I got Method Man on there. I got a couple other people on there. Man, I'm so happy with this project. I can't wait to start letting you guys hear it. We're planning on releasing the first single with the Head Ice battle, as that drops on King of the Dot's YouTube channel at the end of March, so be on the lookout for that as well. Otherwise you can follow me on Twitter @ChillaJones. Follow me on Instagram, @ChillaJones as well, or tune into the website, www.ChillaJones.com. I got all types of Kingpin merchandise. You can see all of my battles there. You can read my bio. You can check out my last music project. Anything Chilla Jones-related, I promise you can find it on www.ChillaJones.com.Zach: Man, first of all, again, I'm just--I'm shocked that we were able to get you on the show. We've been scheming trying to--no pun intended--trying to get you on here. We've been plotting this for some months. Chilla: Yeah, for a while, man. I'm happy to be here. Happy to do it for sure.Zach: Yeah, man. Well, look, man, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast. Of course you can check us out everywhere on living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. We're also at livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv. Just know livingcorporate.com, we told y'all this before, Australia owns livingcorporate.com. I don't know what's going on. They've got, like, some type of apartment selling website over there, so we can't get that domain, but we have every other domain. Like, it's crazy. You can also follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. This has been Zach. You have been listening to Chilla Jones, A.K.A. Juggernaut, A.K.A. Kingpin, A.K.A. Martin Luther Kingpin, A.K.A. Bosstown.Chilla: Yes, sir.Zach: Peace.

Zach and Ade officially kick off Living Corporate Season 2 by announcing new… well, just about everything! New guests and blog posts, weekly tips provided by Tristan Layfield, and even new background music! They also discuss the expansion of Favorite Things and listener letters for Season 2.Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com or send us a DM on any of our social media platforms to submit your Favorite Things and listener letters!TRANSCRIPTZach: Ayo!Ade: What's good?Zach: We're back, we're back. What's going on, everybody? Welcome to Living Corporate Season 2.Ade: Sure is.Zach: Season 2, let's go. Look, more intentional--is it more intentional? Does more intentional--is that grammatically correct?Ade: I--I do believe so, yeah.Zach: Okay, great. More intentional. Bolder. More fun. What kind of topics do we have this season, Ade? I feel like we've got some hot stuff.Ade: We do. So this season we're gonna be talking about interesting stuff like supporting black when at work, which I personally am a fan of. Being disabled while other at work, respectability politics. I mean, the real behind the helpfulness of HR. Being Latinx at work. We have a ton more content. We got some great feedback from the blog last season as well, so we're continuing that this year. Definitely, definitely, definitely make sure you check us out. It'll be on our website, living-corporate.com, and on our Medium page.Zach: In the off-season, right, we actually made some moves, okay? So we bought more domains, right? Okay, so we got livingcorporate.tv. We got livingcorporate.co. We got livingcorporate.org. We really have every Living Corporate. We have livingcorporate.net, right? We have every Living Corporate besides livingcorporate.com, because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Ade: Hold on. Now, this is the first I'm hearing of this. I have to fight Australia for--what?Zach: So it's a company in Australia, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they have livingcorporate.com, but we have all the other Living Corporates without the dashes, right, and the hyphens, so we're making these moves. Definitely excited about the blog. Like, that's gonna be great. Like, everybody isn't a podcast person, right? Like, we have this podcast. We love our podcast. The podcast is probably 90%, 95%, right, as we currently stand of what we have going on, but we want to better diversify our media offerings, because people engage in content in different ways, and we really believe in what we're doing. I would hate--I would hate for all the great things that we have going on to not be captured or not be absorbed rather. And speaking of more content and engaging people in different ways... some of y'all probably remember Tristan Layfield. Ade: Aye.Zach: Yes. He was a guest on the show last season on the episode--it was a B-Side for Landing the Job of Your Dreams. And he's a resume subject matter expert in terms of how to write them, and he's a career coach. Doing great stuff, right? Doing great stuff, and he's graciously offered to be a part of the Living Corporate team for Season 2 to give y'all his own nuggets of wisdom, and he's gonna put 'em on the show.Ade: Amazing. Shout-out to Tristan.Zach: To me that's crazy, right? Shout-out to Tristan Layfield and Layfield Resume, man. Like, shout-out to those folks over there. He's doing great work. In fact, can we get some applause? Can we get some applause for us right now, like, collaborating, sharing spaces?Ade: Totally.Zach: I mean, come on. Let's do that. Let's do that. Maybe even some air horns too, I don't know. That reminds me though, [inaudible] sound effects, drops and stuff like that, we're also gonna new background music this season. Now, look. We got a lot of feedback. People are really feeling the background music. I'm gonna call it blackground music, right? It's jazzy. It's soulful. It's refreshing, right? It's good. It's good. We've gotten good feedback on it. So we're excited about the fact that we're gonna have some new blackground music this season and new mixes for our SoundCloud. So look, we have a decent amount of followers on SoundCloud. Of course we have our most followers on Instagram, but look, on our SoundCloud, y'all, we drop mixes and, like, custom music. I know, I know, I know. You're like, "What? Y'all doing a lot." I know. Ade: We got the aux cord.Zach: We got the aux cord, we got the aux cord. And listen, the mixes are fire. They're not--there's no profanity or nothing on 'em, so when your colleagues at work, when they ask, "Hey, Jamal, do you have any music you'd like for us to play? We're having a late-night working session here." This actually happened to me when I was in Japan working with my colleagues. They were like, "Hey, let's get some music going on. Let's get some music going on." So one of my colleagues, I'm not gonna say who it was, wanted to play some Nickelback. I was like--Ade: Now, hold on. Hold on, hold on. What? Zach: Okay. So Nickelback, yeah. And I'm like, "Hey, uh, Brock, if you could just hand me the charger--hand me the aux and I'll handle it." And I take the aux cord, I'm playing the music, and let me tell you. Fire. We had a good time. They were like, "Ooh, what mix is this?" Then--another example and I'll stop--I had an orientation. So at my job, my new job, orientation. For some reason they were like, "Hey, our music isn't really working." Like, "Our playlist isn't working." I said, "Okay, cool." I plugged in my little--plugged in the SoundCloud, right? Work and Weekend Vibes Volume 1. Man. The guy, right? Senior guy who was coordinating the whole thing goes, "Hey, this is--hey. Hey. Hey, guy! Hey. Music's pretty good." I said, "Thank you. Thank you." It was great. It was great. We had a great time. So the point is we're gonna have more of that, okay? And it's gonna be fire, so we need y'all to check it out. Now, I talked about drops, right? Like, we talked about kind of, like, sound effects and stuff like that. Ade, what kind of drops should we have? Like, we're not a hip hop podcast, right? Like, we're not gonna have gunshots, right?Ade: I mean, you know what? I just feel like there are occasions in which something so fire was said that a gunshot or two might be appropriate. Zach: [laughing] That's so problematic.Ade: Listen, listen. I just feel as though there are some celebrations that require a *brap-brap* or two.Zach: A *brap-brap*! [laughs] Well, the funny thing is that culturally, right, culturally, like, there are different--you know, it's just--it's different. I've seen videos, man, of cats, like, just--I saw a video at a wedding. Everybody had guns, shooting them thangs off at the end, right? Like, as opposed to throwing rice they was throwing bullets in the air. It was crazy.Ade: So listen, as someone who has been to many a Jamaican function, yes. That's all I'm gonna say to that.Zach: Word? That's the wave? That's the wave? I don't know. That's--wow.Ade: I mean, a graduation, a baby shower...Zach: A baby shower? They're shooting--wait, whoa, whoa. They're letting 'em go at the baby shower?Ade: Nothing is complete--no celebration is truly complete until there's gunshots in the air.Zach: Until you let them thangs go? Wow. So this is the scary part about gunshots, right, is that when you shoot 'em up like that, I mean, just because of the way that gravity works, they're gonna fall, right? They're gonna come back.Ade: [laughing] What goes up surely must come down.Zach: [laughing] They're coming down. Can you imagine? Like, that is scary. You're in your house and you hear [sound of bullets dropping], and it's not rain? Like, "That is the smallest, fastest hail I've ever heard in my life."Ade: All I want to say is that [the sound Zach made] is not how guns sound.Zach: [laughs] When they fall. When they fall though. When they fall.Ade: You know what? I still don't feel like metal sounds like [the sound] when it falls on the ground. Feel free to correct me on this one.Zach: You don't think so? [laughs] I just think--I just think because they're so small. Like, they're bullets. They've already been fired, so they're not--Ade: I mean, that's cute and all, but metal just doesn't sound like that.Zach: It don't sound like that? That's [inaudible].Ade: No. I also know that if I ever need some on the spot sound effects you're not gonna be the guy that I go to for--Zach: Wow. My sound effects are fire.Ade: Are they though? Because thus far you've given me [the sound] and *brap-brap*.Zach: So I've asked you--so look, we've completely derailed, right? I asked you what sound effects we need. You've only--you've suggested gunshots.Ade: Okay, first of all, I didn't suggest gunshots. I said that gunshots should not be entirely out of our arsenal--see what I did there?Zach: Wow. Bars.Ade: [laughs] Should not be entirely out of our arsenal of sound effects. That's all I am saying personally.Zach: So what are we thinking? Are we thinking, like, maybe stuff from, like, a different world? Right? Like, I don't know--Ade: You know what? I don't--I feel like we should stay away from, like, sitcom-y sounds, but also just not be dead... so there is an in-between here, and we just have to walk the road and find it.Zach: We do. So yeah, more on that. We'll figure out what exactly those sounds are.Ade: See the wisdom I just applied there without saying anything at all?Zach: No, no, you did. No, no, it was good. It was good, it was good. Ade: I appreciate my roses when I get them. I'm sorry. I'm acting a fool today. All right.Zach: Okay.Ade: Back to it. Favorite Things are back.Zach: Yeah, they back.Ade: However, this year--stay with me here--we want y'all to submit some of your Favorite Things.Zach: There you go.Ade: That's right. I'm tired of being clowned for my Favorite Things. I feel as though it is only fair that we open up our space to include others, open up our horizons by sharing with us what brings you some joy or the next week or the week after that.Zach: And you know what? Speaking of, like, sharing things, like, let me just--let me just talk about what we're sharing today, okay? We're sharing space. So you may say, "Well, yes, Zach, we are sharing space in this corporate structure as non-white people in majority-white working places, and yes, we have to figure out ways to share and navigate space--" No, no, no. I'm not talking about. I'm talking about we're practically sharing space today. Ade is sharing space in a golf room of her--of her apartment. So if you hear this, like, whooshing sound in the background, those are not beheadings. That's a man swinging at a golf ball with fiber in his being. He is hitting it as hard as he possibly can. He knows--Ade: As hawrd? Zach: Hawrd. Hawrd, yes, as he--as he possibly can. He knows that we are in this room, and this is how he's choosing to share the space with us. So--Ade: I just--first of all, he's--like, this is--this is the intended purpose of the room.*SMACK*Ade: That's one. Two, let it never be said that I don't go to some extremes for Living Corporate, okay? Because I have recorded--Zach: No, you've made--this is up there with when you recorded that show with Christa in the closet with all the blankets on top of your body.Ade: I have contorted myself into some very interesting places for Living Corporate, so I just--again, I appreciate my flowers when they are given to me.Zach: No, you are--you are appreciated, it's just I don't want to be implicated in any type of murder.Ade: See? See? Why you gotta be like that? *SMACK*Zach: Because it sounds--because it sounds so scary to me, right? Like, it sounds--Ade: Imagine being the person.Zach: Man, no, no. That sounds terrifying. Okay, let's continue. So I know we talked about Favorite Things. Listener letters.Ade: All right. Listener letters. So we're taking both Favorite Things and listener letters, wherever you're choosing to submit them. So whether you want to email them, DM us on social media--preferably Instagram, but wherever we be at, you be at--submit your Favorite Things, and we will absolutely shout you out, share your Favorite Things, and maybe talk through some of the irritating things, or awesome things, that are going on in your corporate world. So if you want to talk about your coworker accusing you of stealing their lunch, drop us a line. If you want to talk about the amazing win that you've had or the proposal that you just won or the grants that you just wrote or just about the fact that you don't feel like you're getting anywhere in your career at all. Whatever it is you want to share, let us know. We're here. What else?Zach: I mean, that's a good--that's a good point. We really want--we definitely want the letters, right? And we definitely want the Favorite Things, so just submit 'em. Like, we're flexible. We're available, right? We're here for y'all. We got all these domains, right? We got all these different social media platforms. DMs open on all of 'em, you know what I'm saying? You just hit us up. Of course we prefer it in email, so who cares? Send it to us.Ade: [laughs] Who cares what our preference is?Zach: Yeah, who cares about our preference? We are here to serve y'all. That's serving leadership, you see what I mean? Because we love y'all, you hear?Ade: I see you, change manager. I see you. Zach: That's right. Look, you gotta put yourself last, okay?Ade: I don't know about all that. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] "Wait a minute. Hold on."Ade: [laughs] Hold on, now. Nah, nah.Zach: "Hold on, hold on. Not last. Maybe not first." What about second to first? All right, so what else? Okay, yeah, yeah. So look. Now, we've said this--we've said this multiple times, and I need, like, some--I need, like, some softer sentimental music, kind of like the music before you donate to those dogs and stuff with their eyes all big and the cats, and they look all sad. I need that in the background. Ade: [supplies sad music acapella style]Zach: Listen, y'all know that we need 5 stars. Y'all know that we need 5 star ratings.Ade: You know I'm not about to do this with you, right? [laughs]Zach: For a simple two seconds. A one-time donation of 2 seconds. You can actually contribute to the over-arching health and promotion of the Living Corporate podcast if you just slide over to iTunes, the podcast section. Scroll down on Living Corporate's little page on the podcast. It's gonna say, "Leave a review. Leave a rating." You're gonna take your finger, and you're gonna just press 5. 5 stars. Ade: 5 of 'em.Zach: Do you have 5 on it? 'Cause I've had 5 on it, okay? Ade: [singing] I got 5 on it.Zach: Now, we're not gonna get copy--we're not gonna sued for that because we didn't play the audio. Ade: We didn't, and also Jordan Peele has made it kind of creepy, so...Zach: Yes, he has, and so we actually probably won't even reference that again. Ade: Yeah, that's gonna be the first and the last time we do that on the sh ow.Zach: Facts. But look, really, we need 5 stars, okay? So please do us the favor of giving us these 5 stars. And look, let me just go ahead--so that was the--that's kind of like the carrot, you know?Ade: Okay. First of all--there's no stick, number one. Number two, I just want to say we also appreciate your comments that come along with those. So if you want to share any feedback, if you'd like us to bring any guests back or a rerun episode or maybe get a little bit deeper on a topic that we've discussed in the past, let us know. But yeah, give us the 5 stars.Zach: So there's no stick, so I didn't mean it that way. That was me being softer, right? But, like, let me just be practical. We have, like, thousands upon thousands of downloads on our podcast every month, and yet we only have, like, 120 reviews. Ade: It's very hurtful.Zach: Right? It hurts me, right? I'm like, "Yo." And then people will be like--and then people be on Instagram, "This podcast influences me the most every day. I love listening to this podcast," and I feel the love, I do, but I would feel it more if I could get some of these 5 star reviews. So what can we do to, like, help support 5 star reviews? Like, how can we--how can we encourage the audience to participate in 5 star reviews, Ade?Ade: I have an idea.Zach: All right, go ahead.Ade: We could do giveaways. Zach: Giveaways? Giveaways is a--okay, okay, but what are we--what are we giving away? 'Cause it's not like we have--Ade: If you send us screenshots of your review, you enter a drawing. How's that sound?Zach: Right, but what do we have though? It's not like we have any, I mean--Ade: I mean, we do have Living Corporate mugs--hold on, I'm pretty certain we do. We have mugs.Zach: So that's an announcement, right? So that's, like, a two-in-one, right? We have mugs, and we're gonna do giveaways.Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay, so we do have mugs. I agree that we should do giveaways, so let's do that. Yeah, so we have, like, these Living Corporate mugs, y'all, and they're actually pretty cute. They're really cute. They're big, so, like, you know, you can put a lot of whatever your drink of choice is.Ade: Coffee. We're drinking coffee.Zach: Coffee. Listen, let's not--Ade: Although if you're making--if you're adding a little whiskey in there, that's between you and your cup.Zach: I've seen it. It's potatoes between you and your cup. Don't ask me about what's in my cup, you know? I won't ask.Ade: I really feel like that needs to be a thing. "Don't ask me about what is in my cup."Zach: Don't ask me about what's in my cup. No, I mean, I've seen it, and, you know--like, you see it on TV a lot, right? And I don't think it's, like, crazy, but I have seen people have a little something at the bottom of their drawer for the end of the day. I've seen that before. More so in industry. I've definitely never seen it in consulting, but I have seen it in industry. So okay. Cool, cool, cool. So yes, we definitely will do the giveaways. And they're not on the website yet, right? Like, we don't have the merch on the website, but we do have mugs. And we're not popping enough, I don't think, to justify us trying to sell y'all some mugs, okay, but we do have mugs that we can give out for free to encourage y'all to support the Living Corporate team.Ade: Word. Zach: What else? What else? Okay, okay, okay. So, you know, really this season of Living Corporate--so, you know, we learned a lot, right? Like, last season, of course it just being our first season--we're not even a year old yet. You know, coming in, just trying to figure out, like, what the tone is gonna be, how we address topics. And so y'all, really though, expect more intentional, like, commentary and content and just, like, general topics. Expect more fun, right? So we're gonna try to be a little bit more laid-back. Last year was really scripted. We got that feedback a lot, but we were trying to just make sure that we were keeping things succinct and tight, and we didn't want to miss--Ade: Because as you can see, we have a tendency to stray completely off-topic and wander down alleys of distraction, but--Zach: But, you know, it is what it is. And the thing--and the thing about it is, I think--I think the other point is, like, more people than not have said, "Hey, you know, we'd really like to, like, get to know y'all more." Like, "We'd like to get know you and Ade more, understand y'all's relationship. We'd like to get to know other people on the team. You said you've got other folks around." Like, "We'd like to get to know people more," and I think there's way that we can both approachable and personable and at the same time being, you know, still--like, still stick true to what it is we really ultimately want to talk about. But yeah, I just wanted to let y'all--just say that part, because we're really excited about this season, you know? Y'all know. Y'all know it's a crazy time out here. 45 got all us messed up. Yeah, I said it. I said it. Ade: I mean, these are just facts.Zach: They're facts. They're facts. They're facts. They're Facts Kellerman, okay? They're--[laughs] Hey, side-note. So apparently somebody in the DMV--Ade told me that some people be walking around saying "factory." [laughs]Ade: Hold on, what?Zach: So, you know, people will be like, "Facts." Ade: That sounds--that sounds like something that you say in, like, Waldorf. Zach: [laughs] You said "factory." Like, "factory?" That's not--no, factory is a whole different word. That's--no, that doesn't work.Ade: Nope, nope. And I know that there is, like, a trend of saying things are true when they aren't, word to your president, but...Zach: Factory.Ade: I'm here to categorically deny any and all claims that we say that in the DMV. We just--we do not.Zach: Yeah, no. That's not gonna work. Ade: Actually, let me not--let me not do that, because the teeny-boppers might. But what do they know? They're teeny-boppers.Zach: They don't know. They don't know. "Factory" is not the way. "Factory" is a whole other word. But the point is, you know, it's just a crazy time. Like, we know it is. We see--we're seeing stories of, like, blatant inequity and inequality and oppression and just general wrong-doing every day, and, you know, there's plenty of spaces that you can engage for, like, fairly moderate, semi-safe, (rarely?) wholly-safe discussions around--dialogues around race. Or, you know, you can tune into CNN or whatever for that. You can tune into anything else for that. Like, we're trying to have, like--Ade: Tune into who?Zach: I was saying, like, CNN. You know CNN. They'll be like, "A Dialogue On Race: Part 1." "A Dialogue On Race: Part 2." You know? Like, we're not trying to have quote-unquote a dialogue. Like, we're trying to really center and respect and give credence to the perspectives of people that are not often heard, right? Irrespective of how senior they may be in the organization or what their education level is. They're not heard, they're not seen, and so, like, we're trying to drive content that centers them, that affirms that, and that really continues to encourage folks to be thoughtful and empathetic to their neighbor. And, like, that's what we're trying to do. So, you know, this season is gonna be--our hope is it's gonna be way more courageous in that way. Not to say we weren't courageous in Season 1, but, like, I want to--I want to be more courageous season-to-season, right? Ade: Right, and to add to that and not interrupt you--my bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good.Ade: Part of centering the voices of black and brown folks in this space means we're not going to be doing the "there are good people on both sides" BS, because I'm sorry, like, you're not gonna equate my voice to that of a Nazi.Zach: Right, yeah. That's super true.Ade: That's, like--of all the things that we're gonna do, that's just not going to be one of them on this here platform. And I'm sure there are--I mean, there are plenty of spaces in which you could do that. This just is not going to be one of those, and I'm perfectly comfortable categorically saying that.Zach: Yeah, straight up. Because this is the thing, like, it's not--and I think that's the other issue, like a lot of times when we have conversations like these, we present it like, "Oh, well, you know, both sides just need to understand." Like, no, both sides don't really need to understand. Like, one side needs to be more empathetic and conscious of their behaviors, actions, and their privileges, and the other side--the other side don't need to do nothing. Like, nah. I was gonna say we should be more--you know, we could be gracious and just kind of, like, be willing to receive the help, but, I mean, nah. Like, a lot of times we don't even necessarily need help as much as we just don't need harm. You know what I mean? And so anyway, I--Ade: You're my fav, Zach.Zach: What'd you say, Ade?Ade: You're my fav.Zach: [laughs]Ade: 'Cause you got there, 'cause I really was about to be like, "What was that?" No, but the fundamental premise remains that it's actually harmful that the conversation is constantly asking those without power to be gracious and to have mercy and be kind and do all of the emotional labor for those with power, and I'm not just speaking to racial dynamics. I'm also speaking in any and all forms of--and we know that intersectionality is a thing--but speaking to any and all forms of misaligned dynamics, power dynamics, and the onus is almost always on the oppressed to coddle the oppressor, and I'm just gonna say that 2019, it's not--that's not the wave we're on. You're either catching up or you're getting left behind, and I feel like we just took a very, like, sharp revolutionary turn [inaudible], so let's dial it back and talk about our social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Man, it did. I was like, "Dang, if I take that ball back and I continue with this wave, the next pivot's gonna be too aggressive." Let's transition back onto Instagram.Ade: [laughs] Right? This is the kickoff episode. Let's treat it as such.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ade: And we've definitely been going on for a nice little while now.Zach: [laughs] Well, this is the thing, right? Historically you're absolutely right, that it's often been the oppressed's job to massage the feelings, emotions, of the people who have--who are the oppressors, who are the people with authority, who have the power, privilege and access.Ade: One more thing and I promise I'll shut up.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I won't.Zach: No, don't shut up. Go ahead.Ade: Here's the other thing. I wonder how much more we could be doing, and by we I mean just people who fall on the wrong side of the power dynamics. I wonder how much more we could be doing if we didn't expend all of this time and effort and energy and just emotional labor on managing the emotions of others, right? I wonder how much more--I think of it as "If I spend all of this time thinking through what my words will sound like as a woman, as a black woman, as a black immigrant, as a queer woman, as a Muslim..." Like, all of these things. So I think about all of the time that I think that I spend expending time and energy on making sure that I present myself appropriately. If I just took some of that time back, do you know how much more time I would have? How much more energy I would have to expend on things like sleeping?Zach: Straight up.Ade: Right? Or...Zach: Exercising. Drinking more water.Ade: Drinking more water, which--by the way, if you're listening with us right now go ahead and grab yourself a glass of water and just sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip. Anyway, but I think the fundamental point remains that--and I'm not saying that everyone goes around all of the time carrying that weight, but it is a significant amount of time, and it's almost not even a conscious thing that you do anymore, that you, as a woman, apologize for speaking in a meeting. Like, "Sorry, I just wanted to say that..." What are you apologizing for, sis? Just say what you have to say. Say it with your chest. But that's part of this, like, training that you get as being the person on the wrong side of the power dynamics. In 2019, I would just like to say "That's done." That's canceled. That is over.Zach: That is canceled. We're not doing that, and, like, we really want for people to come here and genuinely feel affirmed. Like, I'll give a really quick story. So, like, when I was in Japan--first of all, Japan is amazing. I can't wait to go back. Beautiful country. I was in Tokyo. It's a beautiful city. And I'm walking just--like, I'm walking down the street, and I see, like, another young black man, and we kind of look at each other. I give him the nod, he gives me the nod, and I'm walking, and then, like, I kind of turn over my shoulder, and he's, like, turning over his shoulder at the same time, and, like, he's looking at me. Like, we're looking at each other again, and we smiled, and I just kind of--I turned back around and I was just like, "Dang," and, like, I ain't gonna lie. Like, call it corny, call it cheesy or whatever. That made me feel really good. Like, I felt great, and I carried, like, this little awkward smile with me for, like, I don't know, maybe like a minute, right? And there were no words exchanged. There was just a certain level of just--there was a certain level of power and just love that you felt from just being acknowledged and seeing someone in a space that you did not expect to see someone that looked like you look like you, and then they see--y'all see each other. And, like, Living Corporate, I think that whatever we can do to give--I would love for everybody to feel that feeling that I had that evening, for those, like, 65, 70 seconds. It was a great feeling.Ade: That's dope.Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: All right, let's close this out.Zach: Oh, yeah. Social media, social media. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, so follow us on social media. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Okay. So on Instagram we're @LivingCorporate, on Twitter we're @LivingCorp_Pod, then we got--well, Living Corporate, if you just Google us, you'll see us on LinkedIn. We're everywhere, so make sure you check us out. We're everywhere that y'all are, and I think that does it for us on the show. Remember, this is the kickoff. We have more content coming for you. [in accent] More fire for your head top. Was that a good accent? Or not really?Ade: No, sir. Please never do that again. Be blessed.Zach: [laughs]Ade: No, be best. Don't do that.Zach: Be best. [laughs] Ade: Whoo, all right.Zach: All right. Well, this has been Zach. Ade: This has been Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with 500 Startups venture partner Clayton Bryan. He sits down with us to discuss his career journey up to this point and to share valuable advice for young leaders and founders, particularly in the VC space. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Learn more about CBE Week here! https://www.cbeweek.com/Learn more about Transparent Collective: https://www.transparentcollective.com/Learn more about HBCUvc: http://www.hbcu.vc/Check out the Dorm Room Fund: https://www.dormroomfund.com/Check out 500 Startups' VC Unlocked: https://education.500.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen, y'all. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, CBE, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Special Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we will spotlight movers and shakers who will be speakers during CBE Week. Today we are blessed to have Clayton Bryan. Clayton has over 12 years of experience in the tech space, initially working as a marketer. He transitioned into business development and over the past 3 years has worked in venture capital. Currently, as a venture partner at 500 Startups in San Francisco, Clayton is focused on the media, e-commerce, and frontier tech. Clayton is also one of the co-founders of Transparent Collective, a non-profit launched to help founders of color connect with investors and mentors. Prior to returning to the Bay Area, as a member of the Dorm Room Fund team in New York, Clayton worked with and invested in some of the best and brightest student-funded startups on the East Coast. With that being said, welcome to the show, Clay. How you doin', man?Clayton: Zach, I'm doing great, and to all the listeners out there, good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whenever you might be listening to this. Happy to be here, and looking forward to, you know, having a good conversation.Zach: Absolutely. So look, man. Of course I read your profile in the introduction, but for those of us who might be wanting to know a little bit more--I know I'm one of those people--would you mind talking a little bit more about yourself and your journey?Clayton: Sure, happy to hit on some of the high notes and the milestones. So I'm originally from the Bay. Big shout-out to Oakland. And, you know, growing up I always felt this gravitational pull towards technology. I was fortunate to be able to have an Apple II back in the day and played, you know, some games on that, everything from, you know, Oregon Trail to Mavis Teaches Typing, Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing. Yeah, those are some of the OG titles.Zach: Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this real fast about those games though. Did you ever played this game called Gizmos and Gadgets?Clayton: I don't recall that one. That one--Zach: 'Cause man, it was really dope. Okay, okay, but you said Oregon Trail. Did you ever play that Mario typing game? Where you type and then Mario moves?Clayton: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was a classic too, you know? So for everyone from that era, you know, those were great, and I think that they did a good job of really kind of getting a lot of folks into technology and just, you know, bringing up that awareness. And so once I saw the application of that--and then I also was able to go to, you know, great places as a kid growing up in this area. Places like the Lawrence Hall of Science up in the Berkeley Hills, and, you know, really getting to see all of these cool things happen with science. And so when I got to high school I started to code a little bit, and I took CS in high school. When I got to college, I thought that was gonna be my track as well, but I happened to go to a school where there's a really tough computer science program, and I was like, "Actually," you know, "I think I'm a little more creative than this." So I wanted to touch technology, but not necessarily from the coding perspective, and so I became actually--I was a poli-sci and economics major, and then when I graduated I joined Yahoo as a content marketer, and I was there for a couple years. Then I decided I wanted to go do the startup thing, so I worked at a couple different startups, and that's when I first got--started to really hear the term "venture capital," and back in the 2000s it was a very different time and place within Silicon Valley and the way that we think of things. Investors weren't blogging, they weren't tweeting. It was very obscure as to what investors actually did. Now it's different. Now, you know, you see--it's kind of a who's who on Twitter. Twitter has a VC category you can follow. There's Medium. It's just very easy to kind of stay plugged into that scene if you really want to learn how different investors are thinking. There's a lot of information out there. Back in the 2000s that was not the case, but I was very fortunate at the time--one of the companies I was working with, we had done a Series A and a Series B--and also the check sizes were much different than a Series A and a Series B were today--but I was the seventh hire, and I got to really see, you know, what these meetings with investors look like, and I was exposed to that, and I was like, "This is kind of cool. This is interesting," and that's really, you know, kind of planted the seed for me to want to be on that side of the table. And so fast-forward a couple years. My first--my first kind of role where I was in an investor-like seat was running an accelerator program that focused on underrepresented founders, and so through that program I got to know a lot of folks who I'm gonna shout-out later on in, you know, our conversation. But I got to see--I was even closer, but the problem with that program was that we were not writing checks, and I wanted to actually deploy capital. In order for me to feel comfortable doing that I decided, "Okay. Well, I want to go back to school," which was kind of a controversial decision at the time, because I still think MBAs are not necessarily all that welcome within the space, but I think it's changing now. But for me it leads--the decision was to go back, learn more about finance, build up that skill set, and then finally venture out as a venture capitalist, and so that's what I've been doing since 2015, and I've been incredibly blessed to join a great team at 500 and incredibly blessed to be a part of something called the Dorm Room Fund. And yeah, that's my journey in 3 minutes or less.Zach: Man, that's incredible. And, you know, it's interesting--you know, to your point about some of your decisions being a little non-conventional, still--you talked about yes, there's definitely more information to learn about venture capitalism and being a venture partner. However, Clayton, I have to be honest, man, I'm still really kind of confused when I think about the role of a venture partner. So, like, would you mind sharing a little bit more and kind of breaking it down, what it is your role entails? On, like, what you actually do on a day-to-day basis?Clayton: Sure. And, you know, I think--before I answer that I'll answer a question that I think is a good kind of intro or good for just context in terms of, you know, "Well, how did I get here?" And "Is there a certain path?" Right? I think a lot of folks that want to get into venture are like, "Well, how can I also get into venture?" And I think, you know, a couple years ago there were maybe two different pathways in, where, you know, being a founder that had success. So exited a company, sold a company, right? That was a path. Another path would be, you know, becoming an executive at a top internet company, a big brand that, you know, everyone in the States would know, and then really develop a skill set in sales or marketing or even people ops, and then market yourself to one of these firms as being able to add value. But today, you know, there are so many different firms that are popping up, and I think that if you talk to the folks that are at these firms, they all have different pathways in. And so I think the primary thing is just to have that interest and really network, and be beneficial to founders. Be beneficial to folks that work at these firms. Do the job before you have the job, and I think that's a great way to do it. And there's great programs out there, like HBCUvc, Dorm Room Fund. There's a lot of different programs out there, depending on where you are in your stage of life. We have one at 500 that's called Venture Capital Unlocked. First Round Capital has one called the Angel Track. So there's a lot of programs out there that will help you, you know, kind of get the right skills, because things change so frequently within this space. So I would say that was a little bit of a prelude to the next thing, which is "What do I do on a day-to-day basis?" Well, you know, no two days look alike. I would say the core of my duties, really I'm out here trying to help founders, and so I'm meeting with founders all of the time. If you look at my calendar at any given point in time, there's a lot of meetings with some of the current investments that I have, some of the investments that are a little bit more mature, meaning that, you know, I'm not working with them on a day-to-day, because we have an accelerator program, and so we're--it's essentially like a boot camp for entrepreneurs. So we're helping them with their marketing, their sales. We're helping them really craft the way they're thinking about their investor strategy, and then also with the execution, because a lot of the folks that come through our program, you know, they might be really good at their core competency, whether that's, you know, data science or agriculture tech or spinning up something--you know, some kind of hardware play, but when it comes to the nuances around going out and fundraising and selling your business to the investor audience, it's a little bit of a different type of game. So just understanding and acquainting yourself with the language and the types of models and terms that are being used at this stage. I'm talking about things, you know, as far down as, like, customer acquisition costs, but just understanding things like, you know, your revenue, your different growth rates, right, and how to present that in a way that's meaningful, impactful, but translates well into the minds of investors. So a lot of what I do is coaching. I'm always looking for the next best--the next greatest thing, right, that I can invest in, but even if I can't invest in it right now, I still need to be able to talk to with those founders, help them as much as I can, because I'm always looking for potential, and that means a couple--that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, but I'm out there always looking for potential. So a lot of what I do I categorize kind of as just, like, helping founders. That would be one big category, and then other things that I do is meeting with other investors and really trying to assess how they're looking at the market or markets right now, what's interesting to them, because as someone that's at the seed stage, I--at the end of the day, I need to have confidence that I can help my companies raise money, and if the later-stage players are not as actively looking for deals in that category, it might be--it might not be the right time. Timing is so big in what we do, right? It's a huge--I would say timing and [seeds?] are so important. So you really have to get an understanding, if you're a founder, "Is this the right time for me to go and fundraise for this business? Should I try to hunker down, just focus on product right now, and come out in 6 months when things might be a little bit different?" Right? So again, going back to that fundraising strategy piece, but a big part of what I do also is just networking with investors, networking with other stakeholders in the States, folks that might be doing products at Slack or Pinterest or wherever and just asking them, "What are you seeing that's interesting within your category," right? Because that's helping me make more informed decisions when I'm looking--when I'm crafting my theses, my investment theses, and when I'm starting to go out and I'm meeting with different founders trying to see "Can I find founders that think similarly about the way the future's going to be, and then can I back those founders?" And that's--at the core of my job, as someone that's thinking actively about my fiduciary to my [inaudible] partners, I'm constantly thinking about that, right? Constantly trying to think about the trends that not everyone else is seeing just yet, right? Especially at the early stage. That's what we have to do. We have to be able to look across--look around not the next corner but two corners, because we're investing at such an early stage.Zach: Man, that's just--that's incredible, and there's--you know, I have--I have a couple questions about that role and how you show up. Before I ask that question, you know, all of the things you're talking about and the brands that you're mentioning and the conversations that you're having, I'm curious, how many--how rare is it to see black men moving in this space? And I'll say--I'll just say people of color. I'll just say non-white folks to start, but then how--but how rare is it? It seems like it would be rare.Clayton: Yeah. I mean, like, it's rare to see women. It's rare to see Latinx. It's rare to see black men. It's rare to see anyone that doesn't fit a certain profile of what you're already named, right? And so it is rare, but I think it's starting to get better, and, you know, I can't quantify that growth rate, but I think that more and more investors are starting to realize that there's a need to have multiple perspectives, right? We can't all think the same when we're doing an investment. We can't all, you know, have been trained at the same academic institution and travel in the same social groups, because we're gonna miss out on big movements. And even on a geographical note as well. There's big things that are happening across the continent of Africa, right? And there's big things that are happening all across the world, and we can't just think in that tunnel vision of "What's the next greatest thing that's gonna come out of Northern California?" We have to think--we have to think beyond that, right? And so there are things that are helping. There are things that are getting us where we need to be, but I think that the pace can pick up. And I mentioned, you know, groups like HBCU VC, which I think are great, but we need more of that. We need more of that, and we need more funds like what, you know, Chris Lyons is doing with the Cultural Leadership Fund. We need a lot of that. We need to amplify that times 10 at least, because I'm not seeing enough folks that look like me and have similar backgrounds when I go to these different conferences, different networking events, and I think that's problematic when we start to really see, you know, what's getting invested in, who's getting invested in, right? There's steps out there that talk a lot about that, you know? Talk about the amount of fundraising going to folks of color compared to, you know, folks that are coming from, you know, I'd say more common backgrounds within tech, and it's staggering in terms of the disparity.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we actually had an--we actually had an episode about that last season where we talked about--where we talked about being in venture capital while black, being in venture capital while other, and we discussed the disparity and fund allocation to the point where--they were talking about certain demographics, it was, like--to represent it in dollars would've been, like, basically zero, right? So it's nuts, and that--to your point though about the role, you know, it seems as if your role requires, like, a cocktail of being able to kind of influence without direct authority, a lot of emotional and social intelligence, and then also all of that still being backed up by significant business competence. Can you talk a little bit about how you show up being, you know, one of the few, and what is it that you're doing in these spaces that are--that are majority white? And what challenges, if you have any, have come with that?Clayton: Yeah. I mean, I think it's just, like, being able to paint pictures. Like, for one, I mean, you definitely need to have your facts, right? You need to have your facts and your stats down, and you need to be able to help those around you, and I'm talking about other investors, see what these trends are telling me. I need to translate that over to them, right? And I need to translate it over to them in language that they will be able to understand, because at the end of the day, like, we're all here to try to, at minimum, 3X our money, if not greater, right? 5X, 10X, and sometimes, you know, if these other investors lack that background, they might not be able to understand things in the same manner, right? And this is why I think every board room--and you're starting to see this within big tech companies, like the Twitters and the Salesforces and the Googles of the world, where they're realizing that they're building products for the entire world, so they need to have a team that reflects that, right? And so--but in the venture scene, we're not seeing that as--you know, we're not seeing it develop as quickly. So for me, in order to go in, you know, I need to be able to pound the table, have the facts, but really build these theses in a way in which can align with what my firm wants to do, right? And so I think a lot of it is just, like, you have to go the extra mile, right? You have to really put in that extra work, and it's making me a much better investor, but part of me is like, "It shouldn't have to be this hard," at the same time, right? Like, if I want to do a deal that's founded by a person of color and I think that--and I'm able to show the data, the trends, all of this is really supporting going in this direction, right? And it's funny, sometimes even money that's coming from outside of the United States sees it better than money that resides within the United States, because it's--like, they understand how emerging markets work, and sometimes, you know, if you put it in that lens, like--I mean, we're not emerging, but we have the same capability of an emerging market in terms of the growth potential. Then a lot of the dollars from overseas are like, "Oh, I want in on that," right? And so sometimes it's just you have to be creative, but, like, you just have to--you have to persevere. I think that's the biggest thing, is really, like, you just have to keep willing to push through, and that's the same note that I want to give out to the founders listening, which is, you know, you have to knock on--especially the seed level. You're gonna have to knock on a lot of different doors. I have founders that come in and tell me, like, "Look, I heard "no" 91 times, and I heard "yes" 9 times, but that's all I needed to close my seed." So don't get--you know, don't get, you know, depressed. Don't have anyone try to knock you off your hustle. You're gonna just have to find the folks that your message resonates with the most, and so that's the message I want to give to the founders that's out there.Zach: No, that's incredible, and you're absolutely right. You know, my father--you know, he's a bit of entrepreneur, financial background, sales background, and what he would--he always tells me is he's like, "Son, you know, you don't need but one yes." Like, often times you just need that one. Like, people keep on--like you just said, you know, the majority said no, but you really just needed, like, a scant few to say "yes" for you to continue forward. And I think it's hard though when--you know, when you continue to present and you present and you present, and, you know, who knows what those no's look like, right? 'Cause a no is a no, but, like, you know, the way that they--sometimes the way people tell you, you know, can hurt. Like, maybe you were told no like, 10 times, even though you were just told no once. You know, so those types of experiences. It's tough, so that's great advice. Before we--before we let you go, do you have any other parting words, shout-outs, or special projects that you're working on?Clayton: Yeah. So I just want to, you know, give a shout-out to Transparent Collective. You know, it's a great initiative that we're trying to, you know, continue, and we're actually looking for sponsors for that. So that's a--it's a great initiative. It's a labor of love, and I want to see that continue in the future. So folks out there that might be interested in sponsoring, hit me up. Big shout-out to--you know, this is gonna be a little bit of a long list, and there's people that definitely if I--it could be a lot longer, but, you know, I want to keep time in mind. So big shout-out to Monique Woodard. She's done a lot to help me out professionally. Big fan of hers. Chris Lyons, Marlon Nichols, Connie LaPuebla, Richard Kirby, Eric Moore, Austin Clements, just to name a few. And then also I love what initiatives like Black VC are doing and also HBCUvc, which I mentioned a few times in this podcast. So that's it. And also one last shout-out to all the founders out there, all the hustlers, all the innovators that are grinding right now. You know, keep building. Keep moving forward. Keep persevering. I know it might be tough. I know that, you know, it might be disheartening when you hear "no" here and there, but you really gotta keep grinding, and you will find your path. And, you know, to the best extent that I can, I'm always willing to make myself available for folks that have questions on the businesses that they're building or the careers they're trying to build, because I believe that you really have to pay it forward in this world. So on that note, that's all I have, and signing off. Thank you, everybody. It's been a great pleasure to have this conversation.Zach: Clayton, man, first of all, the pleasure has definitely been ours. Wonderful feedback, thoughts, and points of advice here. We're gonna make sure that we list all of the organizations that you listed, that you named off, that you shouted out, in the show notes, and then we'll also make sure to have your LinkedIn information in the show notes as well so that people can reach out to you as they're able. Now, I think that's gonna do it for us, folks. Thank you for joining the Living Corporate podcast, a Special Series sponsored by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about the Coalition of Black Excellence check out their website CBEWeek.com, and make sure that you actually sign up for CBE Week, which is gonna be happening February 18th to the 24th of 2019--that's this year, come on, y'all--in the San Francisco Bay Area. If you go to their website, you'll be able to learn more, get your tickets, and all that kind of stuff right there. Now, make sure you follow us on Instagram though, okay? @LivingCorporate, and make sure you follow CBE at @ExperienceCBE. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Check out our website, living-corporate.com. This has been Zach, and you've been speaking with Clayton Bryan. Peace.

Zach and Ade stop by for a brief New Year's intermission in this special episode of the Living Corporate podcast. Living Corporate's CBE Week Series continues next week, but for now, enjoy this check-in! They discuss the importance of effective goal setting and share their New Year's resolutions.Find out more about CBEWeek here! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? That's right, it's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: Aye. And listen, we're not back back, and we ain't even really back, but we're here in the middle of our CBE Week Speaker Series.Ade: Yes.Zach: Yes, that's right, just to say Happy New Year.Ade: Happy New Year.Zach: Happy New Year. So look, it's 2019. Now, I don't know how many of y'all do resolutions or how often y'all do resolutions, but we had some resolutions we wanted to, you know, just talk about as we think about 2019, as we prepare for 2019 mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, all of that different stuff. So yeah, here we go. So Ade, look, before we get into these resolutions, do you do resolutions often? Like, is this a thing for you? Or is this, like, a new thing or what? Ade: So it's weird. I don't really do New Year's resolutions. I do birthday resolutions. I think that starting with the new year is not necessarily as significant for me personally as starting with my birthday, because my birth--I mean, not to sound self-centered, but it's about me and on my timeline, and so for me it's more honest, actually, to say that in my 23rd year, or in my 24th year, or in my 25th year, I would like to make these changes, and this is who I aspire to be, and becoming a better person starts on November 1st because that's when my life started. Now, January 1st is great though because it sort of allows you to have accountability partners, and you're better able to say, "Me and my group of friends will be doing XYZ in order to get to ABC goal." Does that make sense?Zach: Yeah, it does, definitely. No, I get that. You didn't ask me, but--no. [laughs]Ade: [laughing] Haha, haha. Well, you--I asked to clarify.Zach: Also I didn't really give you any space to say anything. [inaudible].Ade: You really didn't, you really didn't.Zach: No, I didn't. I just hopped right in there.Ade: You did, so back up off me, bruh. [laughs]Zach: [laughing] No, no, that's a good point. I mean, it's funny that you say that, 'cause I think--I'm not a big resolutions person. This is probably, like, the--I don't know, maybe fourth or fifth time in my life that I've done New Year's resolutions, but when I think about making resolutions to myself, typically they're around my birthday or more recently, in the past half-decade, they've been around my wedding anniversary with my wife. So we'll make them together, right?Ade: Dope, yeah.Zach: At the same time, I think whenever you can identify some type of pace or cadence to create some goals and points of progress of yourself, all good, right? It doesn't have to be--it can be whatever date you want it to be, but I think as long as you're doing--you're mindful of that in some way, I think it's good for you. Okay, so let's get into it. Do you want to go first or do you want me to go first?Ade: You go first. I think I liked what you were talking about earlier, and I want you to share with the people, you know? Look at me, a gracious host. [laughs]Zach: Look at you. [laughs] Okay, so my resolutions--so the first one is to read more, right? So I feel like I read a good bit. Like, I read--I read okay. Like, I definitely read a lot of articles. I read a lot of, you know, just pieces as they come up, especially as the world has been going on today. I read a lot of political pieces. I read The Atlantic often. I don't really read The New Yorker as much, but I read. I'd like to read more. I'd like to read about a book every other month. You see what I'm saying? I didn't give myself a crazy--like, "a book a month." Like, I'm not gonna do that.Ade: Look at you.Zach: Right? So I'd like to read six books by the end of 2019. The second thing is of course just continuing to get healthier. I want to be around. The world is crazy as it is, you know? Plenty of things could take you out any day, so you don't want one of those things to be yourself if you can help it. Ade: Right. Don't be your own enemy of progress.Zach: Right, do not be your own enemy of progress, yes. And then the third thing, which kind of connects to the second thing, drinking a lot more water, right? Ade: Hallelu.Zach: Right? So, like, you know, there are people out there--Ade: I just--I just want to take a second here. I really hate to interrupt you, but if you're listening, go ahead and find a glass of water and sip with us. All right, carry on, Zach.Zach: Yes, a sip. Sip, yes. No, seriously, it's delicious. You can have it cold. You can have it room temperature. You can have it hot, but-- Ade: Wait, hold on. Do you--do you just run around drinking hot water? [laughs]Zach: Ayo. So listen, actually--I do not, right? But I have a good friend of mine who--no, he loves hot water. Like, he loves it. Man, listen. Ade: Okay, I would like to speak to your--like, bring him on this show. I have so many questions.Zach: No, no. I'ma bring him on this show. I'm not gonna--I'm not gonna drop his name, 'cause this is very impromptu, but--Ade: This is--this is a safe space. I just have some questions for you, young man, because... huh? Okay, sorry. Carry on. I got us so off-track just then.Zach: No, no, no. So no, he does. He drinks hot water, and it was funny--so he's one of the people--I don't know if you have people like this in your life. You look up to them, like, to the point where, you know, if they do something that you're not really familiar with, and if other people did that thing you would clown them, but if they do it you're like, "Well, dang, why are you doing that? Let me--"Ade: "Maybe it's valid. Maybe I should give it a whirl."Zach: "Maybe it's valid. Maybe I should give it a whirl." "Maybe I should give it a whirl." Okay. [laughing]Ade: Okay, so first of all, you're not about to come for me, sir.Zach: "Give it a whirl"?Ade: "Give it a whirl." I said what I said.Zach: No, it's funny. [laughing] No, so he--so he was like--I came into his home and he was like, "Zach, so I've been drinking--I've been doing this thing. I've been drinking hot water," and I said, "Really? What?" And he said, "Yeah, would you like some?" And I said, "Sure," and let me tell you something, it was just hot water. It wasn't--I was like--Ade: I really was expecting to be like, "And it changed my life. It revolutionized how I look at water intake." No?Zach: No, it did not. In fact, I was like, "Man, I really would like some cold water right now." Anyway, where was I? Yeah, so drinking more water. So, you know, this kind of a case of two Americas. So there's a--for my non-melanated folks, you know, there's a phrase called "drinking water and minding your business." So drinking water and minding your business, it just saves a lot--it saves you a lot of stress and drama, right? So you look at Paul Rudd. Again, speaking to my--speaking to the majority, right? If you look at Paul Rudd, Paul Rudd is the greatest example of drinking water and minding your business, right? He looks great. He hasn't aged a day. He looks the same as he did in 1993. Right? He does. He looks phenomenal, right? Drinking water and minding your business--you know, I plan on drinking a lot of water, but I--because of the nature of our podcast, I don't know if I plan on minding, quote unquote, my business. I mean--you know what I mean? Like, my business is--yeah, like, my business--Ade: Your business is sort of everybody's business.Zach: Lowkey, right? Like, I'm not messy. Like, I'm not out here, like, Messy Mya. RIP Messy Mya. Look, now I'm talking to the black folks. I'm more so trying to--but I am trying to, like, be more hydrated, right? And, you know, there's the--our bodies are a majority water, so it's--everyone knows at this point it's 2019. Wow, it's 2019. So I don't have to--I shouldn't have to debate with y'all to drink more water, but please, drink more water. And also, speaking of--'cause, you know, we also do Favorite Things. We talk about music and stuff. A sleeper, shout-out Joe Budden Podcast, is the Mick Jenkins' "Drink More Water" project he put out, it was--Ade: You have lost me. You have lost me. I don't know what you're talking about. I also don't listen to Joe Budden's podcast, so maybe that's where the disconnect is right now, my friend. Zach: So "sleeper" is a term, like, you know, this is some music maybe y'all have missed or y'all don't really know about.Ade: Oh, 'cause the first thing I thought was a sleeper cell, and I was like, "All right, well, I--I have to bow out of this conversation, because I don't know anything about sleeper cells."Zach: No, no, no. No sleeper cells. Nothing like that around here. Please. Feds, please don't--don't get us. Ade: Right? We've got to go.Zach: Yeah, right? Now, look, we're gonna have to delete all of this, because Aaron's gonna transcribe this, and then it's gonna be all on Google and stuff. There's gonna be "sleeper cells"--Ade: Oh, see--nah, mm-mm. Aaron, just go ahead and--Zach: Delete all of this.Ade: Yeah. Zach: Yeah. [laughs] Anyway, so yeah, you know, I'm excited about that. I feel as if those are some smart goals. I feel like they're very attainable, they're realistic, and they're helpful for me for what I'm trying to do, right? They're very straightforward. So that's me. Those are my New Year's resolutions.Ade: Okay, okay. Now, I want to push back a little bit. Part of what is important when you're setting goals is to set intentional goals, right? There's this concept of SMART goals, and so that is--so you set Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound goals, and that way you have much more--you're more likely to achieve those goals. So by specific, I mean [inaudible] drink water--by smart I mean you want to drink water, so do you want to drink a gallon of water a day? Do you want to set time goals, like, "By 9:00 a.m., I've had 16 ounces of water." So I think goals and resolutions are all talk until you are able to really discern for yourself what those goals are, how you're going to make them happen, and what that timeline's gonna look like. So I'm gonna repeat what SMART is. You have Specific, you have Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound or Time-sensitive goals. So to give you an example, this year, in 2019, I want to get my solutions architect cert, my AWS solutions architect cert. I want to do that by July '19. So that is a specific goal. It's measurable because it's a certification, it's achievable 'cause, I mean, I can study for it. It's relevant to my larger kind of goal for my life, and it's time-bound. I have set a hard deadline of July 2019 to get that certification, do you see what I'm saying?Zach: No, I definitely understand what you're saying, and you're right. So opposed to me saying, "I want to drink more water," I should be saying, "I want to drink about a gallon of water a day." Instead of me saying, "I want to get healthier," I should say something like, "I'd like to work out at least two to three times a week and cut out sugary and processed foods." And, you know, I kind of did it with the book one when I said I'd like to read a book every other month. So no, I get it. You're absolutely right, and to your point, when we--when we're not specific and really truly smart--let's go ahead and just give out the acronyms to smart real fast. So it's--Ade: Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-bound. Now, there are also some people who say it's SMARTER, where you have all of those that I just mentioned, and then you have Evaluated and Reviewed, which I think are also important parts of the goal setting process, but we don't have to go quite that far right now.Zach: [laughing] No, no, no. This is great. So, you know, it's important, because I think we--the less specific we are with the goals that we say we have, the more of an out we give ourselves to short-change ourselves in the future, right? So--and then also, if they're not specific to you, then you can end up kind of moving the goal posts on yourself and not really ever achieving [inaudible]. So if you say, "Man, I really want to lose some weight," right? I'm gonna pick on losing weight because losing weight is--like, almost everybody feels like they either need to or would like to lose some weight.Ade: Or the alternative for those of us skinny-minis who want to gain some weight, but gain healthy weight.Zach: There you go. Some people want to gain some healthy weight. Thank you. Let's be inclusive of all of our body types and health spaces. Ade: Aye.Zach: Aye. [laughs] So when you say, "Hey, I'd like to have this health goal," if you're not really specific in, like, the numbers you're trying to achieve or the--just what you're outcome is, then you can end up saying, "Well," you know, "I didn't really have to work out today. I just want to work out more," and you end up--you end up cheating yourself. Or you say, "Well, I didn't say I wanted to eat perfectly healthy. I just wanted to eat more vegetables," and it's like, "Okay..." And you just end up cheating yourself. So I think the more specific you can be and, like, more granular you can be with what your goals are, the harder it will be for you to ignore the fact that you're either off-track on them or not really driving towards them. So I super agree with that.Ade: Right. On that note, I'll share some of my goals. And I know I got on you for SMART, and some of mine aren't necessarily SMART goals, but we move. Anyway, so I would like to read and discuss five meaningful articles a week. Zach: Okay, okay.Ade: So that's whether they're in The Atlantic or whether I'm scrolling through Medium and some of the software engineering spaces that I follow. I'd like to be able to read and discuss five articles, and part of that is in finding some of the computer science fundamentals. Base CS has some really great--I don't know if I want to even call those articles, but some really great write-ups on computer science fundamentals, which are important for me to learn. So I'd like to do that five times a week. I would like to get my solutions [inaudible] earlier, my AWS solutions architect certification, by July 2019. This is--this next one I haven't quite figured out how I'm gonna do yet, but I want to reinvent my wardrobe. Now, I say that because I was having a conversation with my partner, and often times when we're out or we really have to go out, I'll just, like, throw on sweatpants and a t-shirt or whatever, and then when we get out I'll complain about looking like a hobo. Okay, that wasn't necessarily how I wanted to say that, but I'll complain about not looking my best self.Zach: Right.Ade: And part of that is just I didn't--I don't necessarily have all of the pieces that I want, and I want to show up, like, how I feel. I want to show up looking and representing myself in my best light, and so part of that--I'm still always going to be a joggers and tennis shoes kind of girl, but I don't have to be a four sizes too large sweatpants and t-shirt that I bought when I was in 7th grade sort of girl, you know? So that's important to me as well. I want to go to the gym once a week and work out of home three times a week. I'm going to create three projects for my portfolio, and I'm going to attend AfroTech in November this year. Those are my goals.Zach: That sounds--that sounds incredible. Those are great goals.Ade: AfroTech is also lit, and if anybody's trying to sponsor me to go to AfroTech, hit your girl up.Zach: Man, listen. Y'all want to sponsor Ade, y'all want to sponsor Living Corporate and we'll send Ade? Man, let's--come on. Get in our inbox.Ade: Let's go. Let us know.Zach: DMs are open for everybody. They are. True.Ade: Okay, uh, let's clarify. Not that open. [laughing]Zach: They are though. They're open on all the social medias. No, but that's--you know, to your first point, it's so interesting how, like--so as kind of, like, a fashion point, like, if you notice, like, there's--there's enough clothes out here to curate a bunch of different looks. Like, if you want to be, like, hobo chic, right, you could get, like, some really form-fitting--Ade: I'm trying to--I'm trying to really walk away from the hobo chic look, because I thought that was what I was doing. Upon further reflection, it's just--it's further towards the hobo end of the spectrum than the chic, so we're just gonna let that dream go.Zach: Got you, got you. 'Cause I was gonna say, like--and I don't know, like, what your preference is, but, like--you know, 'cause you could wear, like, some fitted--not fitted, but, like, nicely-fitting sweatpants, right? You could wear some nicely-fitting sweatpants.Ade: You're right, you're right. Look, if there are any listeners who are designers, who have an eye for fashion, hit your girl up, because I am confused. Okay? Okay.Zach: [laughs] And then [inaudible], that's also great. And then the five [inaudible] with these articles--you're gonna share the articles with me.Ade: Ooh, bet. I like that, yes. We can do that.Zach: Yeah, share the articles with me, 'cause I love--I love reading a good article. I think it's easier to read than reading a whole book. It's, like, typically one subject. It's not clearly as long, but I love articles, so yeah, please. I'd love to check out what you got going on. Then AfroTech of course, that's super dope.Ade: Yeah, yeah. I'm really ready.Zach: Okay. Now, look, I think--I know those are our resolutions. Before we get out of here though, what was the best thing you ate over the holiday break? Ade: Ooh. Oh, Lord. Jesus. I just want to let everybody know about the greatness of my girlfriend's shrimp and grits. So on New Year's Day, she made shrimp and grits, I made rum cheesecake-stuffed French toast, and we lived our best lives. Do you have actually--before we move forward, do you do the pork chop, collard greens, and black-eyed peas ritual?Zach: So I don't--it's not, like, a super traditional thing. Like, we don't do it every year, but I definitely have had it, like, multiple times in my life for New Year's. And, you know, outside of New Year's, but yeah. Ade: Yeah. So I did that as well.Zach: Oh, yeah. That's good.Ade: So for those of you who don't know, some African-American families, some black families, have a tradition wherein in the New Year they eat a pork chop or a pork product of some sort, black-eyed peas, collard greens, and some will throw in cornbread. And I made all of it. I don't eat pork obviously, but she enjoyed it. She seemed to like her plate, so that was great. And what else did we eat this break? We didn't spend a whole ton of time cooking a whole lot, but cooking is my favorite thing. I made a really dope burger for us both. It was--I don't know. I can't wait to cook for you honestly. I want you to come here so that I can feed you, and I'm honestly probably not gonna help your goals of losing weight, but the important part is that the food tastes good.Zach: No, I'm excited. I'll just have to--I'll just do a bunch of pre-workouts, you know what I mean? And post-workouts. It's all good.Ade: See? Yeah, there you go. There you go. And you might have to do two-a-days honestly, but--Zach: Wow, okay. Appreciate the honesty. So what else? So we talked about food. We talked about--we talked about our resolutions. Hm. Ade, what are you most excited about in 2019?Ade: I am most excited about leveling up. I think every new year is an opportunity to excel, and again, this is part of why I kind of count my new year at my birthday as opposed to at the calendar date, but it's a new year to kind of show the little person that you once were how dope everything could be, how dope you could be, how dope life could be, how dope you could make life be for those around you, and part of that is in wanting to wake up every day and crush it. And I don't mean to sound like we're in a huddle and I'm giving you a pep talk, but I think it's exciting when you're able to look your fears in the face, or look a whole new year in the face, and be like, "Yeah, I'm comin' for you." I was gonna say, "I'm coming for that" something else, but I don't think we're quite that explicit on this show.Zach: No, we're not that explicit. That's funny though.Ade: Okay. [laughs] Ultimately, I am excited about being granted another opportunity to get it right and get it right and excel at it, you know? So what are you excited about?Zach: Well, you know, it's funny. I really feel like I'm excited about the same thing. Like, 2019, it's an exciting time because there's so much positive momentum that I'm hearing from last year. Relationships made, some in-roads created with various things and people and projects, and of course Living Corporate. I'm really excited to continue that forward. We have a whole--[Lord say the same?]--we have another 12 months of this thing going on, you know, unless the earth ends, and so I'm excited about us just continuing forward. There's so much to do, especially when you talk about inclusion and diversity work. I feel like the whole field has just been blowing up the past few years, and it seems like every year, like, there's something new that comes along, some new, quote unquote, new piece of learning that everyone's gravitating towards, and I just think that, like, we're ripe in the season to be doing the work that we're doing. So I'm really, really excited about that. I'm excited about the content that's gonna be coming out of the Living Corporate platform. We have a writing team that we're very aggressively building up right now. We have some amazing guests that--you know, that you all will be hearing for Season 2. We just have a lot of stuff--we just have a lot of stuff cooking, and so I'm excited for us to grow, and then I'm really excited for our audience to see it and be a part of it and hopefully grow with us. I'm really excited about that.Ade: Yeah, that's amazing.Zach: Okay. Well, I guess that does it. I'm done. Do you have anything else, Ade?Ade: Yeah. So I just want to wish everybody a happy, safe New Year. I hope that, even if your year hasn't started on the highest note--if 2018 was not good to you, I pray that 2019 will, and I pray that, you know, this New Year is full of opportunities for you, and I hope that we are able to help foster a space that excites you and motivates you. That's it from me. Zach: Man, you always got the dope words. See, that's a great sign-off. [both laugh]Zach: That's a great sign-off. Yes, okay. Well, listen, y'all. You will be hearing more of us on the Living Corporate podcast later this month. This was just a New Year's hello kind of intermission type thing in the middle of our CBE Week Speaker Series. I hope that you all are listening to the series. I'm looking at the download numbers. Y'all are, but I need y'all to pick it up. That's right, I'm talking to you. Listen to the--listen to the show. Listen to the series. It's very good, and then make sure that you stay tuned, because we're gonna have more information about CBE Week as it comes up. So with that being said, my name is Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade. Both: Peace.

Through our partnership with the Coalition of Black Excellence founded by Angela J. we have the pleasure of sitting down with the founder and CEO of GIRL STEM STARS Kiwoba Allaire. Kiwoba sits down with us to discuss her exciting non-profit and its commitment to advancing young girls of color in STEM. We also promote CBE Week, an event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement.Donate to GIRL STEM STARS today! http://www.girlstemstars.org/donate-todayFind out more about CBE/CBE Week! https://www.cbeweek.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and listen, y'all. Living Corporate is partnering with the Coalition of Black Excellence, a non-profit organization based in California, in bringing a Special Speaker series to promote CBE Week, an annual week-long event designed to highlight excellence in the black community, connect black professionals across sectors, and provide opportunities for professional development and community engagement that will positively transform the black community. This is a special series where we will spotlight movers and shakers and leaders who will be speakers during CBE Week, and today, we have Kiwoba Allaire.Kiwoba: Hi, everyone.Zach: Kiwoba Allaire is the founder and CEO of GIRL STEM STARS and an executive business partner at Google. She is inspired and dedicated to helping young girls build successful futures in the tech industry. Kiwoba sits on local non-profit boards for the United Way, the Sheriff's Activities League, The Family Network, and Ronnie Lott's All Stars Helping Kids. Among her many accolades, Allaire was named one of the top 50 mufti-cultural leaders in technology by the Coalition Diversity Council, Women Worth Watching by Profiles in Diversity Journal, recipient of the Sistahs Rock Beyond the Limits Award, San Francisco Business Times’ Most Influential Woman, Forever Influential Woman, and Silicon Valley Business Times’ Most Influential Woman. Now, listen, y'all. We typically have air horns. We're gonna drop the air horns right here. She got all the badges. She's certified, y'all. She is here. Welcome to the show, Kiwoba. How are you doing?Kiwoba: Fantastic. Glad that the fires have subsided. God sent some rain, and we have blue skies. It's nice to be in California today, to say the least, you know?Zach: Absolutely. Well, no, definitely happy that you are--you and yours are safe and sound. So I know I gave our audience your profile in our intro, but do you have anything else you'd like for us to know about you?Kiwoba: I'm from San Francisco, born and raised, and I'm married. I have a wonderful husband named Patrick, and I have a little boy who's turning 5 next month, Christophe, and they are the love of my life. I have a, you know, great family. I'm blessed to be alive, you know? You'll know why when I say it--when I tell you later, but I am very grateful to be healthy and alive.Zach: Absolutely. You know, what do you--you know, we're gonna talk about Girl STEM Stars today and your background at Google and the work that you've done within your organization as well as your job and your career. What do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions when it comes to STEM?Kiwoba: I would say that there's no room for creativity in the STEM fields. There are creative STEM careers, such as working in virtual reality, Pixar, making movies, or music data journalists or NASA, Spotify, Electronic Arts. There are even fun activities that I like to do myself, which is, like, paragliding and scuba diving. When I'm flying in the air with my husband, there's a lot of STEM. Scuba diving? There's a lot of STEM on my back, keeping me alive under 100 feet of water, underwater, and I generally don't see people that look like myself doing any of these activities, you know? It's the same with, like, golf. I mean, look, there's only one--we have one really highlighted person of color, black man, playing golf, and there's a lot of STEM when it comes to golf when you think about it. You know, just--there's a lot of fun activities that I just don't see people that look like myself doing, and I like to highlight that to the girls at GIRL STEM STARS.Zach: No, that's so true, and I will say that for me, as someone who doesn't really have a STEM background, it is easy to think about STEM and say, "Okay, well, it's just Xs and Os, 1s and 0s." Very binary, right? Kiwoba: It's everything we do.Zach: Right.Kiwoba: Yeah, it's everything we do. Zach: Absolutely, and when you talk about it--even, you know, in just, like, makeup. Makeup. You need deodorant, and I'm just looking--and the reason I said makeup, I'm looking--I'm in my bedroom right now, and I'm looking at my wife's nightstand, and I see deodorant--and I see deodorant on my--you know, just cologne. You know, print design. Just all types of things that it's integral to. So what impact, to your point around not seeing a lot of us in the spaces that you engage for--that you engage recreationally, what impact do you believe you are making when black and brown girls see a black woman featured so prominently in STEM, in the STEM field?Kiwoba: Huge impact. You know, I've been on both sides of it. You know, when I worked at an AI--artificial intelligence--company, tech company, called Rocket Fuel, I was the director of global giving, so we wrote a lot of checks, but I--like, thinking, you know, we need to do more than just write checks to charities. We need to actually--me, as the only black woman at the company at the time, I need to be able to lift girls up, not just give hand-outs. So in the position that I was in there, you know, I was the only black female executive, and I had the opportunity to bring children to our campus. Gorgeous campus, you know? It had a big gym and Olympic swim pool, rock climbing wall, the whole nine yards, and a cafeteria. Great lawns. And the kids would come and they're like, "Wow. What do I have to learn to work in a place like this?" Or when I bring them to NASA. Because of, you know, my position in the community, I have people that reach out to me from NASA, from, you know, Google in the past, and Microsoft, Yahoo. They reach out to me and say, "Hey, we want your girls to come." We bring them--we've had a relationship with NASA for the last five years, and some of the parents and the mothers will come as chaperones, and they start to cry. They're like, "Oh, my God. I didn't know anything like this existed." So being able to be in a position to lift girls up into what it looks like to work at a STEM--at a tech company, it blows their minds. Literally. I could imagine--I remember when we took them to Yahoo, and I had a bus to pick them up. Took them out to--I wanted to kind of give them a cultural experience. I took them out to dim sum. They loved it. And, you know, keep in mind, these girls are coming from either homeless shelters or they're coming from deep, deep in the unrepresented communities where, you know, some of the girls are--they live in a flat, an apartment, with 10 other people, and one bathroom, one bedroom, you know? Some of the girls are from very violent neighborhoods, right? So for them--you know, some of the parents are incarcerated. I remember one of the girls who was on the bus got a call from her father, who was in jail, in prison. So just getting them out of their community, one, giving them a good meal, and then I've got them now, or--[inaudible] I've got their attention, and then, you know, to step foot onto, like, the Yahoo campus. They literally all went, "*gasps*". Like, "This must be what Disney Land must look like." I'm like, "Yeah. Yeah, it is," you know? And then they're like, "Ooh, look, there's some cute Asian boys over there." [inaudible]. And, you know, they come inside to the lobby and they see all the gadgets, and they're given gift bags and t-shirts, and they're like, "Okay, I'll make sure to give this t-shirt back at the end of the day." I'm like, "No, sweetie. That's for you." They're like, "*gasps* This new t-shirt is for me?" 'Cause some of these girls haven't had a new piece of anything all of their lives, right? And then when we get the ERGs, which is--Zach: Employee resource groups?Zach: Employee resource groups, exactly. When we get, like, the black networks and, you know, all the females--the female engineers coming, or I have--when we're at NASA, I have the black female rocket scientists come and speak to them. They're just like, "*gasps* Oh, my God." You know? When we're on the bus, I'll ask them "What do you want to be like when you grow up," you know? And they're like, "Ooh, I want to be like Beyonce," or I want to be, you know, "a dancer in a video," and at the end of the day they'll be like, "Ooh, I want to be like that pretty black rocket scientist. I want to be like her." I've had congresswoman Jackie Speier come, and I think that's actually one of your questions, so I'll go ahead and let you ask it.Zach: [laughs] Well, first of all, this is great, and we don't have to have--we can freestyle it too, but this is good. I'm curious, really kind of talking about the program a little bit more, can you give us the origin story? Like, what was the motivation behind it? And where in you building GIRL STEM STARS did you realize how big of an impact it was making?Kiwoba: Okay, so I'll start with the first question. And, you know, I'm Christian, so it's okay, right?Zach: Absolutely, yeah. Go ahead.Kiwoba: Okay, great. Okay. So I--GIRL STEM STARS was born very organically. So I had to have an emergency surgery, and after that surgery I was told everything was fine, and two weeks later everything was not. I wound up passed out on my floor in our home, and my husband had to rush me to the emergency room, and all I remember them telling me was that "Call your family," and I'm like, "Why?" And they said, "Call your family, because your white blood cell count is off the charts." I don't remember anything after that but my husband telling me, after it's all said and done, that I had three absesces in my abdomen, and they had to do an emergency surgery to get them out. Supposedly, I woke up after all the surgery. I was in a normal room for two weeks, and I was holding court. I had my computer on my food tray, and I was having people come in from work and working, right? And I guess I was late working. It was, like, 3 in the morning, I was told, and I was talking to a nurse, and the next thing you know, all of my major body functions crashed at the same time. My heart, my liver, my lungs, my kidneys, everything crashed and, you know, they sent the crash cart, and my husband said they called him at 3 o'clock in the morning and said, "We have induced your wife into a coma because she's dying," and I was in a coma for about three--a little more than three weeks, and they figured out finally what was wrong with me. I had--we had some help. God sent--at the last moment, God sent some--all of the chiefs of surgery, the chief of pulmonary, some guy from Stanford, and then they finally figured out what was going on, and I was septic, and they had, like--had me on, like 10 IVs, and I was all, you know, needles everywhere, hoses and wires. So when I came out of it, my aunt--I was in ICU for over a month. When I finally got home, I couldn't walk. I had lost 50 pounds of body mass, and I'm a thin woman, so I couldn't afford to lose it. So I couldn't walk. Everybody carried me up three flights of stairs in our home and put me into bed, and my aunt came and visited me, and she's my prayer warrior. She's amazing, Auntie [inaudible], and she said, "Honey, you know that God sent his [inaudible] angels to save you, to keep you," 'cause my doctor said that I nearly died. I was 5 minutes from death three times. She says, you know, "That is God working hard. Those angels are--they're warring over you," and she said, "The devil tried to take you out, but I'm telling you right now that you were saved not to go back and work at that tech company--yes, you know, do your job, but you were saved for a greater purpose than just working at a tech company. You need to think and pray about what that greater purpose is, because you have a greater purpose on this earth." And I said okay, and I believed her, you know, after, you know, my cardiologist. The fact that I had a cardiologist was crazy because, you know, I was, like, a gym rat. I had a trainer. I was all [inaudible] up, you know, and, you know, for my cardiologist--she was an Asian lady that stood halfway up me, right? And she's screaming at me like, "You must take your medicine! Do you realize you were 5 minutes from death three times?" I'm like, "Okay, I guess I'll take the heart pills."Zach: Oh, my goodness gracious.Kiwoba: So yeah. I was intubated. You know, they had a tube down my throat for breathing and all of that. I was out out. So when I was home, you know, I was home for about three months, and I thought about, you know, "What is this greater purpose that I would--that I was saved for?" And I started to think about what bugs me the most, and then I realized, you know, I used to complain to HR and recruiting, "Please start hiring people that look like me. Stop hiring people that look like you." And, you know, being the only black woman there, I mean, it started to get kind of creepy, you know? I'm married to a Frenchman, a Caucasian guy, and, you know, if I didn't go to--if I didn't go to church or my parents' house, I didn't see anybody that looked like myself then, you know? Our [cert?] wasn't around then, you know? We live in--we live in an Asian neighborhood, so it's like, you know, "When do I get to see anyone that looks like me?" Right?Zach: Sure, yeah.Kiwoba: So then I realized, "Hey, instead of complaining about the situation, be the change you want to see," and I picked up the phone from my recovery bed and called LegalZoom and said, "I want to start a non-profit that advances girls of color in STEM," and--at first I said black girls, but then I--like, let's be a little more inclusive. Girls of color from underrepresented communities, and that's how GIRL STEM STARS was born, you know? It took me nearly dying to realize I had a greater purpose in me, and that greater purpose was to have an impact on the young girls in my community, and--you know, my bigger vision is to take it globally. Zach: So what was the moment, or did you have a specific moment in building GIRL STEM STARS, where you saw the impact and you realized how global and how major this could be?Kiwoba: Yes. When I was at Rocket Fuel, I--you know, the program was growing pretty, pretty big, and I had 100 girls, mostly black girls, but we had, you know, Pan-Pacific girls we had Pan-Asian girls. We also had Latinas and such, and we had a room of 100 girls in the same t-shirt, GIRL STEM STARS t-shirt, and we had little goodie bags, and we fed them breakfast. I had a black female rocket scientist come in and speak to them, and I remember--she's gorgeous. Her name is Aisha, Aisha Bowe, and she's amazing. You should interview her one day, and she said, "How much money do you think I make?" And the girls are like, "I don't know, $5,000?" You know, 'cause [inaudible] where they're coming from, right?Zach: Sure. And they're kids, like, you know? Yeah.Kiwoba: "No, higher. Higher." "10,000?" "No." "50,000?" "No. Higher, higher." She says, "I make over $100,000 a year," and the girls fell out of their chairs. They're like, "*gasps* Whoa. Wow. You must be a millionaire," you know? And I have all of my speakers bring in their pictures from when they were the age of the girls, which is between 8-18, but I prefer pictures, like, from when they're, like, 10 or something in pigtails, you know, doing sports or whatever, and then show them now, like, in different countries and then in their home and whatever, and their families, so they can really relate and--you know, so she'll say, "This was me when I was a little girl in pigtails, and this is me now, standing next to a celebrity," or whatever it is, right? And the girls are just, like, going, "Wow. Wow," you know? And then she talks about the type of work that she does. I had another lady come in and talk about how she's looking for water on Mars, and the girls were like, "Wow." Then I had--you know you've got them hooked, right? And then I had congresswoman Jackie Speier come in, and she is a mature woman, and she's Caucasian, and, you know, they had--you know, she had her security guards and everyone come in, and, you know, we had--I had the girls line up and clap when she came in, and they were mumbling to themselves, "What's this old white lady gonna have to say [inaudible]?"Zach: [laughs] That's so funny because that's so, like, true. That's so black. That's such an honest--[laughs]Kiwoba: And Jackie's my friend, right? And she's spoken for me many times, and I know she heard them, and she's like, "Uh-huh." "Okay." And I know I heard them. So Jackie and I are looking at each other and, you know, we wink at each other. So we get all the girls to sit down, and I don't remember if Jackie showed a picture of herself young. I don't remember, but she started off--and, you know, I introduced her, "Congresswoman Jackie Speier!" And she gets up there and she looks at them and she gets--everyone's quiet. She's quiet. She waits for the moment, and she goes--and she pumps her--she beats her chest, and she goes "I got shot up five times, left for dead overnight, nearly died," and they're like, "Ooh, here she comes. Okay. Okay. Okay." Then she said, "Then I got married, I got pregnant, and my husband got run over by a car on his bicycle at Golden Gate Park," and they were like, "Oh! Oh! Oh!" And they're like, "Okay." She got their attention. They're all at the tip of their chairs. She goes, "Now I'm gonna talk to you about adversity. Now I'm gonna tell you how I need to know STEM to run this constituency. I am a boss," and then she ends it with a picture of her and President Obama. The girls jump out of their chair and they're like, "Oh! Oh, man! Oh, man!" And I'm like, "Oh, my God." I had goosebumps going up my arms, and--so then, you know, at the end of the day--they all had little notebooks, and at the end of the day--and Jackie spoke forever. First, you know, her people were telling me, "Okay, you know, she's only got 30 minutes, okay?" "Only 30 minutes [inaudible]," and they were, like, frustrated. They were so frustrated. They were all spinning around in the hallway going, "What are we gonna do? [inaudible]." She was in her moment. She was in her element, right? So at the end I said, "Okay, now you told me what you want to be when you grow up. You wanted to be like Beyonce. You wanted to be, you know, a veterinarian so you can play with puppies, or you wanted to be a dancer in a music video. Now what do you want to be?" They're like, "I want to be like that badass congresswoman. Can I get her autograph?" They all run up, and they get in line to get an autograph from the badass congresswoman and take pictures with her and do selfies with her. We have just created a new STEM hero and icon in their lives. That's when I knew we were making an impact.Zach: So of course all of this is amazing, and really--in alignment with the story you just shared as well as when I'm looking at your content on your website--what I'm noticing, and what I'm really excited about, when I look at GIRL STEM STARS is that there is a clear effort and intention around making STEM practical and available for the girls that you're trying to reach, and I think for me coming up, when I thought about STEM, I would think about being, like, a scientist, or being some type of engineer. For me, those things were, like, as far away as being, like, an astronaut. Right? I was like, "Okay, how do I even do that?" When I would think about some of the math and things behind, it just seemed so far away, and I think, again, one thing kind of talking about the program, you all, you have these camps that I believe, again, kind of bring STEM to life and kind of bring it up close for the girls, and so I'm curious, do you have a favorite camp? Do any kind of stick out to you or anything of that nature?Kiwoba: Yes, NASA. NASA is one of the most mind-blowing camps that we have. The parents, you know, they fight to get on that list. We've been doing STEM camps with NASA for the last five years, and we're grateful to be invited every year, and we will get a busload of girls, 50 girls, every year. They're all from underrepresented communities, and some of the mothers to chaperone, and when we roll into NASA, we stop at the big front gate, and one of the engineers will get on, the one that invites us every year. He will give us a driving tour of NASA, and the girls are just--their faces and noses are pressed to the windows going, "Wow. Wow. This looks like a movie set, like a sci-fi movie," you know? They're all just blown away, and some of the--like, the mothers crying going, "I never knew anything like this even existed in the Bay Area." And then we will go to a big conference area, and we will meet the interns, the summer interns, and we usually have our teenagers do this camp, and it's all day from 7:30 in the morning until about 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.Zach: Wow.Kiwoba: Yeah, and at first, you know, they're on the bus, and they're all tired, and I ask the same question: "What do you want to be when you grow up?" I tell you, Beyonce is famous. I mean, they always say Beyonce.Zach: She is beloved though, yeah.Kiwoba: I'm waiting to hear, like, Nicki Minaj. I don't know.Zach: Oh, no, no. I think Beyonce has--she has Nicki beat by a good mile or so.Kiwoba: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] So anyway, that's what they're saying on the bus, and I've got video of it too, you know? So when we get there, they all get into the conference room, we feed them breakfast, and they're--you know, they're tired. They're not used to being, you know, up that early in the morning, especially when they do these on Saturdays, you know? And I tell them, you know, you should congratulate yourselves, 'cause, you know, you're investing in your future, you know? You could be home like the other kids, watching cartoons and eating cereal, you know? You're here, you know, investing your future. And your parents, you know, thank you. And then a beautiful black woman with braids down her back comes in with a NASA jacket on, and they're all like, "Ooh." "She's pretty," you know? And she'll say, you know, "Hi, I'm Dr. Wendy, and I am a rocket scientist here at NASA," and they're like, "Ooh!" They're like, "Okay," and then the interns are all in their teens. They're, like, 16, 17, 18 years old, so the teenagers are seeing--will go from station to station. We probably hit by five different departments in NASA, and we also do breakout sessions, and we also [inaudible], and there was an engineer, a rocket scientist, that would take us--give us a tour, and we'd go around to these different locations. One could be drone testing. Another is a simulated space ship, where we can actually go in and see what it looks like to live in a space ship and touch things and hear what the interns are doing. They're creating little robots that fly in the air and bring tools to the astronauts. I mean, wow. Just amazing stuff, right? And there's other kids that are, you know, also working with rocket scientists to find water on Mars. That's a really big thing right now. Then we'll have a big--they host a big lunch, a big barbecue lunch, with a DJ, and the girls get out, and they dance, and they get--the black engineer group at NASA will come, and they'll dance with them, and they'll get to talk and get mentored by the black females at NASA, and at the end of the day of course, after Dr. Wendy will speak to us again and show videos, I'll say, "Okay, what do you want to be like when you grow up?" "I want to be like Dr. Wendy! I want to be like those other black women we were dancing with!" So I want them to have a real experience with these black female engineers and rocket scientists where they eat with them, they eat at NASA, they dance with people, they get to hear what they do, the type of work that they do, how they got to work they got to. So they're completely immersed in the environment, and, you know, it's like, "I did NASA." It's, like, you know, a major field trip to another country, to another world, really. Another world, because, you know, from their little perspective where they're coming from--some of these girls, like I mentioned before, you know, a flat or a homeless shelter--a flat with 10 people or a homeless shelter. This is--this is mind-blowing, and you see their little minds just go pop, and I'm like, "Yes, we got them." [laughs] Yeah, it's cool. It's really cool.Zach: It's easy to underestimate the value or the impact that that--outside looking in, what that has on a child. I remember for me, STEM wasn't really my background, Kiwoba, but it was music, and so for me, in middle school and high school, you know, I was one of the--one of the better players in Dallas, and I actually played in the Greater Dallas Youth Orchestra, and I was--Kiwoba: Very cool.Zach: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so I was able to play with the orchestra. I was able to play at the [Meyerson?], which is, like, this big concert hall in Dallas, and it was great, and so--Kiwoba: That changes your world, right? That changes your whole world.Zach: Yeah. It changes your entire world, and then even like, you know, when I did some volunteer work where you have underrepresented kids come in who are--who come from poor backgrounds and they get to see your workplace, and they view the work site, and they see you. You know, they see somebody like me. I'm a young, black man, and I tell them I'm a manager or, you know, I just did this, that, and the third, and I travel every week. Just them seeing me and them asking, "So wait, you do this? You travel?" And it just blows--it changes their entire perspective, so that's incredible.Kiwoba: Yeah. I do the same thing. I bring the girls by my desk, you know, like at Google or, you know, wherever I was, at Rocket Fuel. I would give them a whole tour of the whole building, and they're looking around, and, like, "There's where the engineers work. See, there's accounting," and one of my friends--they hired another black woman, who was the head of accounting, and she'd come out in all her glory--you know, she wore beautiful clothes. She was stunning--she still is--and she's like, "So I'm the accounting part of this tech company," and, you know, "You have to know math to be able to be in accounting, but this is another way to get into a tech company," is through accounting. Then I would introduce them to the--you know, the head of marketing, who happened to be a female as well. Not of color. And the head of legal was female as well. The head of HR was female. So I would have them--we would go by each of their offices in their departments. She's like, "I'm the boss of this whole department." They're like, "*gasps* Wow." They can see the different departments in a tech company, right? So they meet, you know, everybody. The engineers, everyone. So that also allows them to see the different avenues into tech companies or into tech in general.Zach: You're right. Like, I think it is really is, when you think about STEM or when you hear the word STEM, rather, it's easy to go to, like, some scientist with a white lab coat and their sleeves rolled up, and they're, you know, pouring mixtures back and forth, and again, there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's much more far-reaching than that. Kind of going back to the top of our discussion, STEM is in every single thing we do. There's some version--there's some version in STEM in literally every single thing that we touch or interact with or think about, and I think to your point around having them see the various avenues of how it all intersects is really important. So where can people learn more about GIRL STEM STARS? And how can they support? Like, what are the various avenues and options they have to actually support your organization?Kiwoba: So they can go to GIRLSTEMSTARS.org. That is, you know, where the Donate button is. We really need donations because these camps are not cheap, you know? And I don't charge. I don't charge the parents at all. I've had parents from Google and, you know, from different tech companies try and have their kids come to my camp, to pay. They're like, "I'll pay you $300," you know, "for my kid to go to your all-day camps," and I'm like, "No." This is for kids that can't afford to go to fancy camps, right? Their parents can't afford to. So we want to continue to make the camps free for the girls, you know? That means paying for buses and food and all of that. T-shirts, you know? All day to keep a child all day long, you know? So donations are definitely how people can help. Please, please. Give monthly. A monthly donation has more impact than a one-time donation, but that's most definitely what we need to do.Zach: Well, so first of all, I don't want to--and I don't want to zoom past that part, because there's so many opportunities and things out there, but they're limited by economic barriers, right? Like, the fact that you're able to offer these programs for free. Not for a reduced cost, not for a discount, but for free to these families is so important, and it's one less excuse, you know? And it's a big deal when a parent gives up their child for a day, even if they're chaperoning them, to follow them--to allow them to go off from their direct care, and then to do that and then to ask them to give up something monetarily in a situation where they may not--they may not have the means to do so. So that's beautiful that you're able to do that, and we'll make sure to have the donation link in the show notes, and we'll direct folks to donate there. Now, this has been a great discussion, but before we go, I feel as if--I feel as if you have some more wisdom and some more jewels to share, so I'd like to ask if you have any parting words or shout-outs before we wrap up here.Kiwoba: I would say, you know, thank you, God, for saving my life, so that I can have this impact on girls around the world. Also, keep in mind that I'm trying to--GIRL STEM STARS isn't about getting girls just into tech companies, but we're also--you know, this is why our girls are from 8-18. We're also creating the future board members, the future decision-makers, the future entrepreneurs of the world, you know? And that--you know, we want to have our girls be in those higher seats that are making the decisions about the world, about, you know, starting their own tech companies maybe. Starting whatever. Being entrepreneurs, right? And we're trying to give them that entrepreneurial mindset that you are in control, you know? That these kids, they can make a decision to say, "Okay, I can watch cartoons in the morning, or I can go to a GIRL STEM STARS camp at NASA," right? So giving them the opportunity, picking them up with a bus, feeding them, doing this all day long with them, it literally changes their whole world. I've had parents constantly sending me emails going that one trip changed their whole daughter's perspective on life, and she's starting--you know, her grades are better. She knows that--she knows what she sees, you know? 'Cause we--a lot of the girls are regulars. Sometimes, you know, they're different, but for the most part, you know, when these girls to go to all of these different events, you know, Makers Faire, and to city hall, and be treated like absolute ladies, you know? We treat them like gold. We roll out the red carpet for them. That day will never--it will never leave them, you know? It changes their whole life, and we know that we've changed them in that one day and that they're looking for--they've seen and experienced a better future for themselves. Zach: Absolutely, and often it just needs that--takes that one spark to set off a whole new set of dreams, so that's incredible.Kiwoba: Exactly.Zach: Well, awesome. Look, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Remember, this is a special series brought to you by the Coalition of Black Excellence. To learn more about the Coalition of Black Excellence and their CBE Week, look them up at CBEWeek.com. If you have a question that you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Kiwoba Allaire, founder and CEO of GIRL STEM STARS. Peace, y'all.Kiwoba: Goodbye. God bless you all.

In our Season 1 recap episode, we discuss the lessons we've learned over the course of the season, some of our favorite episodes, our Favorite Things, AND tease a little Season 2 content that's coming your way in 2019!Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateChris Price's new EP: https://itunes.apple.com/bz/album/good-evening-ep/1436626656TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to the Season 1 wrap-up. We out here.Ade: Yeah. Yeah, we sure are. So what are we gonna talk about today?Zach: Okay, so we're gonna talk about lessons learned...Ade: Aye.Zach: Some of our favorite episodes...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughing] Okay. Favorite Things...Ade: Aye.Zach: Okay.Ade: I'm just trying to be your hype man here. Like, I really don't understand why you're taking this so hard. Let's go.Zach: It's just funny. I think maybe some of it is, like, cultural differences, right? 'Cause, like, "aye--" I don't know, "aye" is pretty common across the black diaspora.Ade: I feel like in the diaspora you say "aye," and that's, like, a cue for somebody to really--Zach: To get--to get hyper.Ade: To get hyper, yes. I wasn't--I wasn't trying to ruin the rating of our--of our show here, so.Zach: No, no, no. I mean, "aye" is cool, it's just I think--I think a southern "aye"--we can talk about this maybe another time, but I feel as if if you're in the south and you say "aye," and if you're in the--I don't know. I feel like the "ayes" mean different things. Maybe not.Ade: No, I hear you. Now that you say it, I realize that, like, "aye" can also be like, "Okay, bro. You're wilin'."Zach: Aye, yeah. Exactly. So anyway. "Aye" can also be, like, a sound of acknowledgement and appreciation, kind of like how I just did it.Ade: Right.Zach: I don't know. Black language and just--black and brown language frankly is just so deep and rich. It's really cool.Ade: I love it.Zach: Now, where were we? Oh, yes. Okay, so Favorite Things. We definitely want to give out some thank yous, right?Ade: Most definitely, most definitely.Zach: Right, right, right, and then we have a few house-cleaning administrative things that we want to talk to you about as we--as we kind of take this season break and get into season two. So with that being said, lessons learned. Ade, what are some of the--Ade: Oh, I go first?Zach: You go first. What are some of the lessons you've learned in this?Ade: Aye. Oh, they are varied, they are plenty, and some I think I'm still in the midst of learning, but I think my top three takeaways from this whole process of--you know, from ideation, which was largely you--which was mostly Zach--and coming together, building a team and growing as a collective, I think the top three things that I've learned--one is to speak up. Closed mouths do in fact never get fed. Your mouth is closed? You get no bread. See? I tried to rhyme. See? See what I did there?Zach: Bars.Ade: Something-something-something-something. But yeah, if you do not in fact speak up for yourself, and that is in every facet of your life but it's even more important in your professional spaces. If you do not speak up for yourself, if you are not your own best advocate, if you do not find yourselves in the rooms where, you know, they're making those decisions and they're making the plays that you want to be making, and if you're not actively putting yourselves in those spaces and then speaking up about what you need more to grow, what you need more to succeed, it's not--it's not gonna be a great time. A great time will not be had by all, mostly you, and the reason I think for that is because people can't read your mind. People can't help you if you are not willing to, you know, point people at the issues and the places which you could use that assistance. See what I'm saying?Zach: I so agree. I think that, you know, it's not about--and when you said, like, "Closed mouths don't get fed," it's not because there's not food there, it's just that, like, everybody else is focused on eating too. So most times, you're gonna have to open your own mouth to eat. And that whole point around just speaking up and being vocal and putting yourself into comfortable positions, putting yourself out there, is just kind of part and parcel. Like, I don't know if I've ever even seen, like, any project be successful with someone just kind of, like, waiting for everything to come to them.Ade: Right, right. What about you?Zach: I think for me the biggest--one of the biggest lessons learned is that you miss all the shots that you don't take, right? And I know that's very cliche, but it's true. We had some--we had some amazing opportunities to interview some really great guests this past season, and then also just network with a bunch of people that we didn't--that we did not interview on the show but that we shared the idea of Living Corporate with and who they were really receptive too, and we have some things coming in the future, in 2019, that we're really excited about, all because of us just putting ourselves out there. And so, you know, I'm thinking about the Lakers and, you know, LeBron, the GOAT. Yes, that's right. I said it. The GOAT.Ade: I do not disagree. At least the basketball GOAT.Zach: Okay. Yeah, no. Definitely the basketball GOAT, and he's also a super GOAT when it comes to social activism, but regardless, one of my favorite Lakers is actually Kobe, but it's not because I think he's the best Laker. I don't, but I do--what I loved about his game was the fact that he would just shoot it, man, and he would make really ill-advised shots, but his mindset was like, "Look, I'ma shoot it, and I'ma make some and I'ma miss some," and it was the--it was his lack of fear when it comes to failure, right? And I think that often times we don't really look at failure as a genuine growth and development opportunity. I think some of that is because of us as just black and brown people. Failure is not an opportunity to grow. Failure is just failure, 'cause we don't have the same privileges and access to really learn and grow from our failure. When we fail, we just fail, but I think it's important for us in this era, especially as black and brown creatives, to really embrace failing forward, and I know that Matthew Manning with Gumbo, we had him on a couple--just a couple weeks ago, he talked about that too. So yeah, that was a big one for me, and in fact--hold on. Let me not--let me not forget this. We actually got some questions in that I think would be good for us to put in our lessons in this Lessons Learned section from--Ade: Really?Zach: Yeah, from social media. We've got some people to ask us some questions.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So someone said, "What is your biggest takeaway from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate?" So I feel like we can kind of roll that into a Lessons Learned. What was one of your biggest takeaways from interviewing all of the guests on Living Corporate this season, Ade?Ade: Ooh. There were some amazing ones actually, and I think it's kind of like an aggregate of thoughts, but ultimately it's that you need to be intentional about your career, and I think there's a common thread that kind of ties all of these thoughts together, and I think it is that you need to be intentional. And that is not to say--well, first I want to address--before I get too distracted about answering that question I do want to address something. You were talking about the Kobe Bryant shots. We are not saying you should make ill-advised shots in your career. Don't take risks--don't let your mouth write a check that your skills cannot cash.Zach: Amen. Thank you, yes. Good cleanup on that, yes.Ade: Yeah. Like, don't get up there somewhere and be like, "Yeah, I can totally stand up this project in a week, because Living Corporate told me that I can, and I should say wild things at work." Don't do that. Do not do that, but we are saying that, especially for women, especially for black and brown women, you are so much more qualified than you give yourself credit for, and part of life is in taking the risk. If you are always prepping to be perfect, you are never, ever, ever going to take the shot. So yeah, that's take #1 in response to that. Take #2 I think is to be intentional. Part of being able to take those risks is in knowing that you've done the prep work, right? So I can't just walk in to anybody's office today and be like, "I want to be your CTO." They'll be like, "Who let this person in?" And also, "How quickly can you let her back out?" Not because they want to be cruel, but because they're being realistic.Zach: Yeah, but you're not ready.Ade: Correct, but I do know that in 20 years I am going to be somebody's CTO because I am going to be making all of the steps that I need. Or maybe CEO. We'll see.Zach: Straight up. Speak it. No, real talk.Ade: But the point is that you make all of the decisions now, you prep now, you put all of your ducks in a row essentially so that your life doesn't just happen to you, so that your career doesn't just happen to you. Many of the most successful people that I know made very intentional decisions. Like, for example--I'm gonna use my partner as an example, and I hope she doesn't get mad at me, but by our bedside table she has this framed "What do you want to be when you grow up?" sort of fill in the blanks paper, and on there she has--I think this is from when she was in fourth or fifth grade, and on there she said she wants to be a lawyer like Thurgood Marshall or Johnnie Cochran, and she ordered her steps in such a way that she ended up going to Howard University and University of Laverne, both of which were universities that both of those people attended, right? So it wasn't just that you make decisions about your life and then hope that it happens to you, it's that you work. You put in the effort. You put in all of the time and energy required to get you to those places, and yes, you will of course succeed. Well, God willing, and hopefully capitalism doesn't get in your way, but you succeed because you've thought your life through, you've thought your career through, you've thought your path through, and if what you're looking for is an escape plan, you've thought that through as well so that you're not suffering on the other side of it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and, you know, to your point, it definitely was oversimplification with the Kobe analogy and--like, that was a really, really good cleanup, Shaq. That was great because you--yes.Ade: You're totally welcome.Zach: No, it was--no, it was dope. Because it's funny, in saying that what we also dismiss or rather what we ignore or underplay in that shooting our shot with getting some of the guests that we were able to get, and we're just more than honored and excited about the guests that we have for y'all for season two, is the fact that we spent hours upon hours and weeks upon weeks as a team in really, like, clarifying our mission, our purpose, getting our branding together, our language, the logo work. Like, there was a lot, and there is a lot that goes behind this very, you know, perhaps to a lot of y'all just, like, very simple, like, straight-forward show and concept, and it took time to, like, really build those things, and so there was a lot of preparation that went into it. So before I put an email together to send to DeRay or Beto O'Rourke or J Prince or, you know, a CEO or whoever it may be, there was a lot of things that we had that we could stand on to justify why I'm in this person's inbox or why I'm in this person's DMs. Now I'm gonna sound like I'm actually a Kobe stan, and I'm really not, but really to kind of go back to my initial analogy, Kobe didn't just show up at the game and just shoot those to us seemingly crazy shots. Like, he put up thousands of shots before and after every game, and in practice he's shooting thousands of these shots. He's practicing these shots. So when it's game time, literally when it's game time, and he pulls up a fadeaway over, like, three people, like, to us it looks like he just randomly threw it up, but no, like, he's been practicing that, and so--and actually, kind of to answer the question--kind of to go back to what you were talking about and kind of answering this question that was submitted to us, one of the biggest things I learned from our guests was that a lot of times we'll see--like, we see the glory, but we don't know the story, right? So, like, we see people who are like, "Man--oh, I work with HBO." Like, we spoke with Emily Miethner, who is the CEO of FindSpark, and she was like, "Yeah, we had a partnership," and she named all of these huge brands, but, like, if you just dig, like, a second deeper, you'll find out she's been doing this for, like, a decade. Like, FindSpark is blowing up now, but it's been years in the making of her building this. The same thing like when you talk to Janet Pope, who's the leader of diversity and inclusion and social responsibility for Capgemini, which is a global consulting firm--you know, you'll talk to her. You may see her in France or see her all around the world doing some really fancy stuff, but, like, her career is 12 years in the making, right? There's a lot of work that goes behind that. So yeah, no, for sure on that. We have another question. The next question, which I think is a really good one, is...Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm sorry. That's like my go-to. I don't even think about it. It just, like--the "aye" is from--it's from my soul. It, like, spawns directly from...Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. It's good. I like it. So "What is in store for the next season and when can we expect you back?"Ade: Oh, wow. I mean, listen to this episode. Listen all the way to the end. You'll have some answers by the time the episode ends.Zach: For sure. No, for sure. Definitely listen to this episode, listen to it all the way to the end. Don't fast forward to the end 'cause, like, we kind of need the clicks. Like, we definitely want the download data, but, I mean, if you want to fast forward to the end, I mean, I'm not mad at you, but...Ade: And also it hurts my feelings when people skip past me, so.Zach: Who skips past--who skips past you?Ade: Well--so I'm a small person. Okay, [inaudible]--Zach: Oh, I see. Go ahead.Ade: Ooh.Zach: [laughs] No, it's just that it came together quickly when you said that. You were saying literally.Ade: No, no, no. You agreed to that way too quickly. Now I kind of want to fight. What? Wow.Zach: [laughs] Go ahead with your story. Go ahead. I'm listening.Ade: Okay. So I was at a bar, and I ordered a whiskey ginger. I think I actually ordered a Manhattan. No, an old-fashioned. Whatever. A whiskey-based drink, as is my custom, and the bartender just kept giving my drink to other people. I'm, like, watching him, and he walks past me, walks past me again with my drink, 'cause I saw him make it. It was a whiskey ginger. And then he just walks to one end of the bar, gives a person my drink. The first time it happened I was like, "Hm. Maybe--I don't know. Maybe they also ordered a whiskey ginger," but it happened, like, three times. Three. So I essentially was like, "All right, look. I will climb over this bar and fight you if necessary, but I'm gonna need my drink."Zach: Goodness.Ade: So I, like, start jumping up and waving at him, and he's like, "Oh, I didn't see you there." What? What?Zach: Come on. [laughs]Ade: What?Zach: No, no, no. But, like, real talk though. Like, size privilege is a thing, right? Like, there are certain privileges that come from being tall and from being thin. There's certain privileges, you know what I mean?Ade: You know there is. Absolutely.Zach: So that's real. Like, that's super real, and I can say that, like, this is an opportunity for me to practice empathy and not sympathy, 'cause I can't really relate to that.Ade: [laughs]Zach: Right? I can't, 'cause I'm always seen, you know what I mean? Like, you're not gonna not see me. Even if you try to--let's say, you know, you're trying to practice micro-aggressions and act like I'm not there. Like, you're not--like, you can't. You'll look silly. Like, I'ma get in your way. You're gonna have to acknowledge me. So that's real, but no, I was just curious. I mean, I would say that more than a few people have pulled me aside and been like, "Hey, your co-host is great." Like, [inaudible], so I didn't know what you meant about getting passed over.Ade: Aye.Zach: [laughs] Yo, so this is what we're gonna do for season two. I'ma tell you what's coming up in season two, it's making me taking that "aye" as a sound bite and putting it on that soundboard, and we'll just play that.Ade: I am tired of [inaudible].Zach: It's ridiculous. Okay. So yeah, definitely listen. We're gonna talk a little bit about season two at the end and what's coming up just after this episode, 'cause we have some things happening after this season one wrap-up episode.Ade: Sure are.Zach: Yep, but what I--what I will say is, you know, please in season two expect--I don't know. I mean, I don't want to say a bit more personality 'cause I do feel as if we showed our personality a lot in season one, but, you know, it was our first season. Like, we're learning our platform. Ade and I did not know each other before we started Living Corporate, so we're certainly learning and growing as just friends in our relationship, so expect more of that, and also expect even more courageous and, like, really intentional content around underrepresented individuals and people groups in Corporate America. Like, I'll even give you an example.Ade: You are giving away the whole ending of the show.Zach: I know. Let me just--I'ma hold off on it, but we have some really great, like, topics that I'm really excited about because the point of this space is to have real talk in a corporate world, right? Like, corporate spaces. Even when you talk about inclusion and diversity, like, it's always masked with, like, other things, right? So, like, diversity of thought, diversity of education, diversity of--I'm like, "Can we be honest?" Like, "Can we just have an honest conversation about, like, intersectionality and how race and gender specifically play a role in shaping the entire planet," right? Like, can we just talk about it from a really honest and genuine perspective? Like, that's our goal. So just expect more of that in season two. When you can expect us back? You can expect us back--you can expect us back, man. We'll talk about that at the end of this episode, but you can expect us back. And maybe I'll drop a--maybe I'll drop a hint.Ade: Oh, we're doing hints now?Zach: I have a dream that you can expect us back soon.Ade: You can't be trusted with no secrets, man. Like, I just want you to know that right now.Zach: [laughs] Okay. All right, all right, all right. Let's see here now. We have one more question. Here we go. "How does one successfully transition out of the corporate world?" This is a good question, and I--you know, I'ma say this. I don't think it's fair for you and I to take this episode to try to walk through and, like, rehash some really great content that Matthew Manning of Gumbo Media and Nick Bailey of Black Texas Magazine have really done a great job at, like, expounding upon when it comes to starting a startup, transitioning from your full-time job and pursuing your dreams, like, wholeheartedly. And also Fenorris Pearson. Like, our first episode, right? He talked about transitioning out of the corporate world and getting into more non-profit work, right? So I think that there are some great episodes, and, like, this is not, like, an excuse, my back answer. Like, we definitely appreciate the question, but my biggest advice would be to go back and run those episodes back AND to look at the show notes because you have the contact information for those people, and I know who sent this question in, so I will actually circle back with them directly. And we'll make sure to--we'll put these questions and the answers, like, within the show notes within this episode, but there have been some really great episodes that we've had around that. What do you think about that question, Ade?Ade: I think, for one, we had so many amazing episodes that I connected to, that are literally just playing in the back of my head whenever I am in situations at work, that help essentially edify me, I think is the term that I'm trying to use. I'm not trying to go to church, but my top three though would have to be the mental health episode because, for all intents and purposes, I laughed my way through that episode and also connected really deeply with so many of the themes. Like, yes you want to hustle, yes you want to grind, but there's nothing to grind for if you lose your mental health in exchange for being in these spaces. And yes, these spaces often--these corporate spaces often do not have you in mind. They didn't have you in mind when they were formulating those spaces, and so now your existence in those spaces is very much revolutionary, and that said, you will often have to carry the burden of being the only, or even worse the only of onlys, in those corporate spaces, and so it 1. made me feel a lot less alone and 2. gave me a lot of very actionable advice, and so that was appreciated. Honorable mention goes to my conversation--it was a B-Side, not an episode, so I couldn't include it, but my conversation with Christa Clarke where we kind of built on that idea of what self-care looks like in corporate spaces. I think she's the first person that--maybe not the first person that I know, but the first person who was just so open about, "Yeah, I took a pay cut because it was what was best for me personally," and she's doing something that makes her happy. She has a creative space. She has everything essentially that you need to have a happy life without the stress, and so she's inspirational, and I'm still waiting to have cocktails with her. Last two. I think the Let Me In conversation with TJ, because--Zach: That was a good one, yeah.Ade: Yeah. You know, in real-time seeing someone who did precisely what I want to do with resources and having the conversations that I needed, and in a lot of ways he was inspirational because he decided he was gonna do this for the kids, you know? He was very much like, "I want to give back to my community, and this is the way that I've identified would benefit my community, but I'm not there yet," and so he took it upon himself to better himself because he knew--he (treated?) himself as a meaningful part of a whole, not necessarily making that career pivot just for himself, which was just a delight to hear. And I think the last one in my top three is Janet Pope. And again, we've had a lot of really amazing episodes, but these three spoke to me. Like, they met me where I was at sort of thing, and, you know, each and every single one of those conversations really came at a really pivotal time for me and a really important time because, for example, the conversation with TJ, it was at a time where I was particularly stressed and thinking, "You know what? Maybe tech isn't for me. Maybe I'm just not smart enough. Maybe I'm just not good enough." I was really struggling at my former place of employment, and it didn't feel like I was doing any meaningful work, and it felt like I was around places that were just becoming toxic for me, and so it was just really, really good to get these reminders, like, "Hey, it's not in your head, but you can do something about it." Like, these systems exist outside of your control, but here's your locus of control. Here's your internal--you can do this work, and having people who have done the work, who are able to distill the vastness of their experiences into "This is what I did. You can do it too," was priceless for me.Zach: Those were really good choices.Ade: Thank you.Zach: So yeah, you can definitely count B-Sides. Like, B-Sides, they're episodes, so let's make sure we count those. So after I finish mine, if you have some extras that you want to throw in there, please feel free. So favorite episodes. So the first one that sticks out to me has to be Preston Mitchum's B-Side, right? Because it was so unapologetic. Preston Mitchum, he was talking about LGBTQ identity, he was talking about pro-blackness and, like, what that looks like practically in the workplace and as someone who's in a highly political area. He lives in D.C. He's a lawyer. He's an educator. He's an activist. So that one--that one was great.Ade: Yep. All facts, no cap.Zach: All facts, no cap. Listen--so side note, shout out to all these new slang words. I realize that I'm old now 'cause I--my generation as millennials, like older millennials, right? So I'm saying older millennials. I'm 29. We don't come up with all of the dances anymore, and we don't come up with all of the slang, so no cap--Ade: Can I just say something real quick?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: The first time I heard "no cap" I thought they were talking about Captain America, and I was mad confused because I genuinely just didn't get why they were bringing up Captain America in a conversation that had nothing to do with Captain America. I was just kind of like, "Uh..."Zach: "What is "no cap?"" Right? No, I was confused, so I was like, "What is "no cap?"" So "no cap." "Say less" is also hot in these streets, "say less," and then also I've heard of tick. Like, "You got tick." Like, "You got juice," or sauce or influence. You have tick. So that was a new--Ade: You have what?Zach: Tick. Tick. Chance the Rapper--Ade: Like the animals?Zach: Yeah. Like the bug, yeah. It's like the pest. Tick.Ade: Oh, no. I just--there's some things I just can't get with, and that's gonna have to be one of them.Zach: Tick is--yeah, tick is hot in these Chicago and Midwestern streets supposedly, so...Ade: Well, keep them Chicago and Midwest streets [inaudible] because...Zach: Is it not popping in the DMV?Ade: Not only is it cold, y'all not--what? Tick? Nah, that don't even make no sense. Like, what?Zach: [laughs] Goodness gracious. So yeah, so "no cap." [laughing] Going back to the podcast favs. So yes, Preston, and another one was Effective Allyship with Amy C. Waninger. That one was great.Ade: Aye.Zach: Around the same thoughts, because Amy being a white woman, and very white, right? And, like, we talked about that on the episode, 'cause the topic was effective allyship, and she talks about effective--like, she is a very white woman in a very white space, and just her just unapologetic tone around the reality of race and gender and intersectionality, really important. I would have to piggyback on one of your answers though. The Janet Pope episode was very good. I really, really enjoyed that one, and I was excited because I was not on the episode, and I was able just to listen and hear about y'all's journey, hear about just perspectives that I don't--I don't consider, and the fact that it was three black women talking too, which I was really excited and thankful for. Oh, okay, and then so a B-Side was--Latricia and I did an episode on Botham Jean, the man who was murdered by the police in his own home, and I liked that episode because it was not in any way, like, in alignment with our formula at all. Like, it was a--it was very much so, like, a--I don't want to say pop culture, but it was a current events-type episode, and that was probably, like, the maddest y'all will ever hear me on this podcast. Let me not say it. Well, hopefully it will be the maddest you ever hear me, but it was just very frank, and actually, people at my current place of employment heard the episode and reached out to me about it, like, in a very positive and encouraging way, and it helped me extend my network somehow, which was, like, an affirmation that, like, speaking truth to power is, to me, always the right thing to do. Like, you'll never go wrong in that. Like, how you speak truth to power and your method may adjust, but you doing it is not wrong. So that's three. I really enjoyed--I really enjoyed the episode with Deborah Owens about the self-advocacy, strategic networking and self-advocacy, when she was like, "You don't have a career."Ade: Oh, wow. Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.Zach: [laughing] "I don't want to do anything to mess up my career." "Sis, you don't have a career here." Boy. Goodness.Ade: Oof. A drag.Zach: No, it was--it was very funny, and then my fifth spot is kind of actually a tie between two. One is an episode where you kept on saying the person was tugging on your wig, which was the Professional Reinvention episode with my dad, Edward Nunn. That was pretty good. I liked that episode. It was tied with the B-Side for Professional Reinvention with Angela Shaw, and she's an HR business partner, public speaker, and she's the Austin Human Resource Management Association president, right? And so I really enjoyed--really enjoyed those episodes, but, you know--I don't even want to say honorable mention. I have a ton of others. The J Prince episode, even though it scared the mess out of me, was great. That was terrifying.Ade: [laughing] I remember you talking about that episode. You were freaking out.Zach: I was freaking out. And listen, let me tell you something, y'all. Y'all go back and run that episode back. That was the shortest episode in Living Corporate history. It was very short. I think it was, like, nine minutes. And then of course the DeRay Mckesson episode was phenomenal. I enjoyed that, even though the signal was bad. I appreciate the fact that he took the time to join, and he was really cool, so. You know what time it is? We didn't have it on our last episode, so now we're gonna get into Favorite Things. And this is the last Favorite Things for season one. So, you know, Ade, you typically have, like, seven favorite things. Feel free to drop as many more--Ade: Wow. You are so disrespectful. I just--I want you to know that it is on sight for you.Zach: [laughing] This is the thing. We've got to stop using--we've got to stop using phrases from the early 2000s and late '90s that don't mean what they mean anymore. "On sight" don't mean--Ade: That is what it means.Zach: "On sight," but you don't see anybody anymore, right? Technology is in the way. Now "on sight" don't mean that. "On sight" means that when I see you're green, when you're available on Facebook, it's a problem, you know what I mean? [laughing] Like, we don't see each other like that no more. It's just technology.Ade: [inaudible]. I just want you to know that the way my spirit is moving...Zach: You're moving--you're moving in early 2000s "on sight," that's what you're saying.Ade: The energy that I retain is of DMX fame, and I just want you to know that the minute you step off your plane...Zach: And come to D.C.? It's on sight?Ade: And land in...Zach: And put my two feet on the--Ade: You don't even gotta put both feet.Zach: I'll put one toe, one toe on D.C. ground.Ade: A toenail.Zach: A toenail. It's on sight.Ade: In any of the surrounding zip codes where I reside.Zach: Goodness. In the D, the M, or the V.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: Understood, I appreciate that.Ade: All right, [inaudible]?Zach: All right.Ade: So glad we understand each other.Zach: Great. [laughs]Ade: You're ridiculous. I can't stand you. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] Oh, goodness gracious. So yes, please, Ade, commence with your cavalcade of Favorite Things.Ade: I--oh, my God. I can't keep saying that I want to fight you, but I do want to fight you. All right. Okay. So my Favorite Things--I actually don't want to go with books, and here's why I don't want to go with books. We have a list of books, and I would actually love to see if we could, like, get some listener feedback on their favorite books, but we said favorite THINGS, so I don't know. I feel like we should expand our repertoire a bit. So I have three, because I always have a lot. I'm very indecisive in that way. Top favorite thing is goat meat pepper soup.Zach: Oh, that sounds good.Ade: I am making some at the moment, and my house smells like peace, joy, and happiness, and so yeah. I'm partial, but goat meat pepper soup is the GOAT.Zach: Aye.Ade: You see what I did there? You see--you see what I did? You see?Zach: That was clever. Yeah, that was good. [laughs]Ade: And you should try goat meat pepper soup with some rice noodles. It's a delight. It's a delight. I just want to say that. Next favorite thing is Rent the Runway. Now, before I get any judgment from anybody, I just want to say I'm not gonna spend $8,000 on an Oscar de la Renta dress, but I do like Oscar de la Renta's dresses, so I'll spend $300 on renting one. Bloop. That's all I've got to say about that.Zach: Understood.Ade: Thank you for appreciating me, friend. And I think my final thing that I want to just shout out is contact lenses. Now, I just want to wax poetic for a second about contact lenses, 'cause I don't know if everybody knows, but my eyes are purely decorative. Without glasses or contacts, I can't see a thing. I literally see the world like those super out of light--out of focus lights that you see in the distance in Christmas. That's my life when I don't have any glasses or contacts on, and I just want to shout out to God for working way harder than Satan, because I can't tell you the number of bruises I've gotten just because, like, my eyes didn't see fit to notice that there was a corner there.Zach: [laughs] Man, that's real though.Ade: Or how many times I have just busted my whole behind because I didn't have contacts or glasses and missed, you know, the final three rows of stairs.Zach: Yo, that's the--that's the thing. When you miss, like, those steps, like, just one or two, you feel like--like, your life flashes before your eyes. Like, you feel you're about to die.Ade: Listen. Have you ever fallen up stairs?Zach: Trust--have I? Yes, most certainly.Ade: 1. I am disturbed to find that we are united in that experience...Zach: Most certainly.Ade: But also 2., and more importantly--oh, shoot. One second. Also, more importantly, how is it that we've managed to fall UP stairs? Like, I feel like we need to speak to somebody about this.Zach: I don't know. That's the thing though. It's us and, like, millions of other people. Like, plenty of people fall up the stairs. Like, honestly, the internet has brought of course a variety of great things, and one of the best things for me is that it really has helped me feel more comfortable in the fact that I'm a klutz. I'm really clumsy. That's why when I--that's why when I go out places, I don't even be moving around that much. I find, like, one little place to be and I kind of park there, because I know the minute that I move I'ma knock something over, I'ma bump into somebody, I'ma trip.Ade: You know what? That's a really good plan, because I certainly am gonna need something. Something, something. Maybe, like, you know, that bubble. Not, like, because I'm immuno-compromised but because, like, otherwise I'm gonna bump into everything and hurt myself. So yeah, things that you've learned about me today. I'm extremely clumsy.Zach: Most of my friends, close members in my family are very clumsy. Just clumsy. Just clumsy people, and I don't know what that's about. I've heard that there's some tie-in to people being clumsy and being intelligent though. Believe it or not I have, but, you know, that could just be junk science. You know, fake news. Who knows? Okay, so those are your Favorite Things. Hm. So my Favorite Things for the season, as our last entry into Favorite Things--I also will not do books. I too will do Things.Ade: Aye.Zach: Aye. So my first Favorite Thing has to be the music that my brother-in-law Chris Price has dropped. He actually dropped an EP, and actually you should be hearing that in the background right now. It's just dope music, and I enjoy it because it's just jazz. Like, it's light jazz via piano, and what I like about it is--so beyond, like, the music itself, which I definitely listen to. It's good study music. It's good just kind of relax music. What I really like about it, the reason why it's a Favorite Thing--Ade: (Aye?) I've really got to stop saying that. It's driving me nuts now.Zach: See? Exactly, but it's cool. It's cool, 'cause I'ma run this back, I'ma cut out that little A, and I'm gonna make that--'cause we have a soundboard for season two. I'm gonna be like--it's gonna be "aye-aye-aye-aye." We're gonna just play it to death.Ade: I will fight you.Zach: That and the air horns. That's gonna be season two sound effects staples. Okay, so anyway, back to this. So what excites me and why it's a Favorite Thing is not just because it's good music, it's because any time I see someone, like, pursue their dream or pursue something and, like, really execute upon something that they have been thinking about or, like, a passion of theirs or something they find really interesting--that excites me, right? So that's why it's a Favorite Thing. So the music that you're hearing, we'll have the information in the show description so you can check it out yourself. Make sure you check it out on iTunes and everywhere that streams music. So that's one. The second thing that's my Favorite Thing has to be, and I'm just gonna come out and say it. I'm gonna come out and say it, man. Vaseline. So Vasel--Ade: What?Zach: Yeah, Vaseline. Like, Vaseline, especially in the melanated community, I think is greatly underused, right? So, you know, we don't talk about it enough, but I'ma talk about it - ashy. Ashiness, okay? So ashiness being the predominance of dry skin or a lack of moisture in your skin, and I think a lot of times--I think big lotion, the big lotion industry if I may, has deluded us into thinking that these very watery lotions are satisfactory for our skin, right? But you've got to realize, like, we don't live in a world that caters to blackness or brownness or anything like that. We live in a world where we are not the default. So that watery lotion, that hotel-level lotion, is not gonna cut it for us, and so I think that Vaseline, petroleum, Vaseline, is a great thing. It's a Favorite Thing of mine. Vaseline has never let me down. It is very cold in Dallas and in Houston--Ade: All of the shea butter in the world though.Zach: Shea butter also. So let me--let me actually amend that. Shea butter, cocoa butter, and Vaseline. And I guess--so under the umbrella of thicker moisture risers and moisture retainers, and it's really--Ade: I'm here to educate you. So shea butter and Vaseline and all of those things, they're not going to moisturize your skin. They're going to lock in moisture.Zach: That's what I said--but I said that--remember when I said [inaudible]--Ade: You said moisturizes first.Zach: Okay, fine, but then I said--Ade: I heard you though.Zach: Okay, cool, but then I said retain--Ade: Okay, but I heard you though.Zach: I said retain too though.Ade: [laughs]Zach: [laughs] They retain the moisture, right? So anyway, it's just important, man. I think, you know, a lot of y'all have--you know, a few folks have come in and emailed us about career advice and how do you do this and how do you do this. Let me tell you something. One thing you can do, anybody can do right now, is be less ashy. That is gonna help you in your career, no matter what you're trying to do.Ade: Um, sir? What?Zach: And so--[laughs] Like, no, really though. Really though, name one person that you've seen on television that's a person of color who's ashy? Malala is always--Malala? She's always moisturized. Michelle Obama? She looks moisturized to death. Her everything. There's not one dry bone on her body. Barack Obama? Same way. Idris Elba? Come on. Like, come on. Like, we know this. Oprah? Oprah never goes out ashy. We need to do--we need to do better so that Nivea--that's right, I'm coming at y'all, Nivea--all these other watery, water-based lotions, they're not for us, y'all. That's right, I'm talking to us right now. That's right. So that's--and look, that's just number two. I got one more. I got one more. Oh, Murray's Hair Grease also goes in that Favorite Things. I'm talking about thick pomades and lotions.Ade: Okay. You know what, sir? I'm gonna send you some shea butter because I can't listen to you crackle and pop over there anymore.Zach: [laughs] I don't crackle and--Ade: Don't claim you're not snapping.Zach: I don't crackle and pop. I don't crackle and pop because I use cocoa butter, shea butter, Murray's, and Vaseline.Ade: In that order?Zach: No, I just those thick--they're thick agents. That's what I use.Ade: I just...Zach: What if I start off by saying my Favorite Thing is thick agents? People will be like, "What are you talking about?"Ade: Okay, almost every time you've said "thick" so far you've said "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick," and sir, I'm very concerned about--about you.Zach: Thick agents. I didn't say--I didn't say "they're thick," "they're thick," "they're thick."Ade: No, no, no. You're right. You're totally correct. I understand and [inaudible].Zach: Thick agents. Cool. So that's two. Shout out to thick agents of moisture retention. That is my second Favorite Thing, then my third Favorite Thing--my third Favorite Thing is actually going to have to go a GroupMe called Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye.Zach: Yeah, yeah.Ade: You keep that one in. Shout out to BIC.Zach: Shout out to BIC, which is thick with black consultants. How about that?Ade: [sighs]Zach: No?Ade: No.Zach: Okay. Well--JJ, keep it in. Keep it in. Don't take this out. [laughs] So no, really though, I love Blacks In Consulting GroupMe because it's--you know, the numbers, they wax and wane, but they are always well over 5 to 600 people, always, and it's all--it's what it is. It's black folks in consulting, and we share--we have venting sessions, we share knowledge, we share resources. It's a place of affirmation and familiarity, and so it's great. It's really exciting just to be in that space, and it was through Blacks In Consulting that I met the Living Corporate--the people that would eventually comprise the Living Corporate team, and so just shout out to them and shout out to my favorite--that's one of my Favorite Things. My Favorite Thing--so it is the GroupMe, but I guess from a conceptual level it's more about the idea of like-minded people grouping together, not to exclude others, not to rise up against other people or anything like that, but in the name of just being collaborative and practicing a certain level of community along very genuine lines, and I think, you know, it's--you know what I mean? Like, to me that's a beautiful thing. And yeah, we're in there. We'll joke and we'll have fun and stuff like that, but, like, there are genuine moments of collaboration and just affirmation. So those are my Favorite Things. Those are my Favorite Things. Okay, so--Ade: And just to add to loving on BIC real quick, it's been a space where I got career advice, I got--I mean, I got to meet you, Zach, but I also got to meet some really amazing people. I got interview advice, and I found some [inaudible] partners. Not only is it a well-rounded group, but it's super effective, and it's a really great way or it has been a really great way to meet young professionals like myself, and I'm very, very grateful for that space, and you guys should definitely look for Blacks In Consulting and other projects that's coming out of that group.Zach: Ooh, yeah. That's a good point too, yeah. We don't want to give away the sauce, but definitely. In 2019, keep your eyes peeled for Blacks In Consulting.Ade: Aye. Okay, I need--I need a new catchphrase. Dear God, I'm so tired of "aye."Zach: Well, the first step is awareness, right? So we can--we can workshop some new phrases in 2019. Like, we have plenty of time, and--Ade: No, no, no. Today. We're working new phrases today because every time I hear it come out of my mouth I'm just kind of like, "A what? B? Can you go with another letter? I don't know, Sis. Something." I'm dragging my own self over, like, verbal cues.Zach: [laughs] You've said it like 20 or 30 times this episode. It's okay.Ade: 20 or 30? Oh, my God.Zach: [laughs] Slight exaggeration there. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. So now we're gonna get into Thank Yous, thank yous. What thank yous do you have?Ade: Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind. Okay, tell me you know where that came from.Zach: You said, "Thank you, thank you. You're far too kind."Ade: Yes.Zach: Man, I'm drawing a blank. [inaudible].Ade: [gasps]Zach: You're gonna say it and I'm gonna be like, "Duh." Who? Not Jay-Z. Who?Ade: Yes, Jay-Z. Numb/Encore with Linkin Park.Zach: Okay, cool. My word. Yo. Man, first of all...Ade: [sighs] You disappoint me.Zach: No, no, no. It's crazy that you bring that up because I was just thinking about the Black Album yesterday. I was listening to an episode of The Evening Jones with Bomani Jones, and he was talking--somebody asked, like, "Is the Black Album a classic?" And I was like, "Yes."Ade: Uh, duh.Zach: Like, the Black Album dropped when I was 14. Man, let me tell you, [inaudible]--Ade: When you were how old?Zach: I was 14. I was in eighth grade, yeah.Ade: Oh, boy.Zach: And it's funny, right? Age is--age is not relative in that, like--I mean, come on. Like, they're distinct numbers, but what you think is old and young is relative to the person, right? So on The Right Time, most of the people there were, like, in their--they were older. They're, like, in their thirties and their, you know, maybe early forties, and they're talking about, "Yeah, I remember when I was in high school listening to the Black Album." "I remember when I was just graduating high school and getting into college listening to the Black Album," and [inaudible] I know I shared. I was like, "Man, I was, like, 13, 14 when the Black Album dropped." I think I was 13 actually. And everybody was like, "Dang, you were young," and then you're like, "Nah, I'm old." Like, 'cause how old were you? You were like, what, 9? 10?Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: Yeah, you were mad young, right? So anyway--Ade: I plead the fifth.Zach: [laughs] Anyway, so yeah, we're getting to our Thank Yous. Ade, would you like to go first or would you like me to go first?Ade: You go first.Zach: Okay. So first off, a major thank you goes to my wife Candice, who was more than encouraging for me just to get all of this stuff going and getting it kicked off. Like, this was a big deal in just our home because this takes time and energy away from other things, and money of course, right? Just to kind of get things going and getting started. So definitely thank yous to her and just my family, just all the support. My mom, my parents of course, and then my mother and father-in-law for sure. Very encouraging, very supportive in everything that I do, and they're just--they're just great. Like, they're great. So that's just starting with just family and just close--and I'll throw close friends in there too. And then thank yous also go to all of the guests for season one. Like, people responded to us with such excitement to be on the show. Like, we did not have to really beg a lot of people. That was crazy to me. So thank yous to everybody that was a guest. Special shout outs to George Okpamen, who has been super supportive and just over the top--Ade: Sure has.Zach: Right? Very supportive. Amy C. Waninger, who always retweets things. Kyle Mosely. Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. That was actually another favorite episode too, Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips. Super cool. Very White Guy. I mean, the list goes on and on, literally every single guest. J Prince too. Just people who are willing just to be on our platform and just be a part. Like, it's amazing. Other thank yous go of course to Sound Man, AKA JJ. JJ, man, please give yourself a round of applause real quick-like please.Ade: Seriously?Zach: 'Cause man, you've been just super instrumental in getting all of these things together. I mean, between the full episodes and the B-Sides and the--I mean, it's crazy. And another thank you goes to actually someone who's very behind the scenes but is super instrumental to everything we do is Aaron. So Aaron is our admin, and so, you know, someone--so someone pulled me aside one time and they were like, you know, "So where are the white guys? Where are the white guys?" Like, "Why are you excluding the white people?" So first of all, we do not exclude white people. We've had white people on Living Corporate, okay, as guests, and Aaron, who's on the team, is white. So there, okay?Ade: You just totally pulled the "we have a white friend" card, and I want you to know that I'm about 30 seconds away from laughing [inaudible].Zach: [laughing] But we don't just have a white friend. We have white friendS, right? We've got Drew.Ade: Plural.Zach: Plural. We have Drew. We have Amy. We have Aaron. Okay?Ade: Okay, I'm gonna need you to not list all of the white people who like us. Thank you.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I'm not doing this with you, sir. [laughs]Zach: Here's the thing. See, look. It's so funny, right? 'Cause I was about to get defensive and name, like, two more white people, but then it's--like, that's kind of proving your point. But no, in all seriousness, right, like, I just want to thank Aaron. He certainly is our forced diversity hire. The government, the radical left, came and made us hire somebody white, and so that's where we are. [laughs]Ade: [sighs] All right. When we get kicked off of Apple Podcasts, I will just point to this moment.Zach: You know that's what people think though. They think, like--they think, like, the government goes into companies like, "You have to hire--"Ade: Certainly.Zach: You know? It's just ridiculous. So of course we [inaudible]--Ade: But also just point to this second in time. Like, I'm not mad at it. You are spitting facts, however...Zach: The loony left! Nah, but in all seriousness, Aaron is great, and he's been doing wonderful work. And then last but not least, I want to thank the people who are still kind of, like, on the periph--who started off, like, really closely in Living Corporate but now they're kind of more so on the periphery or doing other things, and that's Latricia, Ade--I'm about to say Ade. Latricia, Ola, and Parin, and Hannah. So all of them have had, like, very critical and instrumental parts of Living Corporate and just getting started and us kind of, like, getting some frameworks recognized and developed, and we've been able to continue to move forward, so I want to thank them. And then lastly--I know I said lastly before, but lastly I want to thank Sheneisha White, and she's actually our researcher, and so you'll hear more about her in season two, but yeah. And I'm sure I've missed somebody, but I don't think so. So yeah, those are my Thank Yous.Ade: Those were great, and exhaustive, so I don't have too much more--Zach: Oh, okay. [laughs]Ade: Look. Listen, you did it. I appreciate you taking point on that because I know I would've forgotten somebody that was super integral, and then I'd feel bad for the rest of all my days, so thank you for sparing me the guilt. Personally, I would like to thank my partner, my friends, my family. I feel like I'm at an award show and I should've prepped a speech, but in lieu of that I do want to say my deep, heartfelt thanks to, you know, everybody who has supported this endeavor, everybody who has given us feedback, who has--I'm gonna shout out my friends [inaudible] and [inaudible] just championing and really supporting in ways that I didn't even expect. I didn't expect my friends--in a lot of ways, they were the very first to recognize, "Hey, this is a really dope thing, and you guys should keep doing it." Not only was that useful for us and helpful for us, but it was just empowering in ways that I don't think they know, and I hope that I'm only a quarter as good of a friend as you guys have been to me. Shout out to [inaudible] as well. Shout out to [inaudible] as well, but I really appreciate all of you, and I've gotten more than one comment about how beautiful my voice is, and I have never been so self-conscious about it before, but I really appreciate that people appreciate my voice, so there's that. Yeah. In all, I'm really grateful that the most expensive thing that you can be given is someone's time and that you guys have come back time and time again to spend your time with us and listen to what we have to say and the content that we are producing is just--it's a humbling thing, and I really appreciate all of you. And finally, I really want to thank you, Zach, because you've poured your heart and soul into this project, into this platform, and I think everyone who knows you knows the amount of time and effort that you put into this project. Up to 3:00 a.m. mornings when we're both up and we're like, "Why are you up?" "Living Corporate. Why are you up?" "Insomnia." So... [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Ade: Yeah. I just really want you to know that I've never met anybody with your work ethic, with your passion, with your drive, and your humility. All of those things are important because otherwise I don't think I'd be able to like you very much because I'd be like, "Who's this guy outperforming me? How dare you?" You've really defined leadership for me in a lot of ways, and I appreciate you.Zach: Man, first of all, thank you, Ade. Like, none of this was scripted at all so I wasn't expecting that, but I definitely appreciate it, and I appreciate you. One of these seasons we're gonna have to talk about, like, your journey, right? Like, this--like, over the past, you know, seven, eight months, and the growth that you've shown--Ade: I don't know if I can put that on a public platform. [laughs] Wait.Zach: [laughs] But no, just the growth that you've shown and the obstacles that you've overcome and the resilience that you've demonstrated, and just all of the--just the development. I mean, there's just so much there, so I'm inspired by you, and I'm excited to be here with you and to continue forward with you on and through Living Corporate. So cool, enough of that 'cause I'm not gonna cry. Let's talk about some house-cleaning and just kind of, like, what's next for Living Corporate, right? So you guys--I'm sorry, I don't want to be so hetero-normative in my language. You all should know or should be hearing this around Thanksgiving, right? So we're recording this in mid-November. You all should be hearing this on the 23rd or the weekend of the 23rd around Thanksgiving. The regularly scheduled programming of Friday Living Corporate episodes, either full episodes or B-Sides, will be on pause until early 2019, which will be sometime in mid-January or so, okay? So that's when we're gonna be coming back. We will be back in mid-January, and that's gonna be, like, our formal, full episodes. Like, that's when those will come back, but in the meantime we actually have a really exciting partnership that we want to announce for you guys, for you all.Ade: Sure do.Zach: And that's what with the Coalition of Black Excellence. So the Coalition of Black Excellence is a non-profit genuinely focused on the uplifting and professional development through networking, through education, of black professionals. They're based in California, and they have a really big, major event called CBE Week that's gonna be happening in early 2019, and so we actually have a partnership with them to really feature a lot of the speakers for that event as special co-branded, co-facilitated learning series that we will be airing through this platform, through the Living Corporate podcast, up and leading to--up and leading to CBE Week, okay? So you'll be hearing those on Mondays, okay? Those will be starting up soon. So if you heard this on a Friday, really you'll likely hear that content--the first episode for that particular learning series will be dropping that following Monday, okay? So make sure you stay tuned for that. We're really excited about that, really thankful for the opportunity to work with the Coalition of Black Excellence in this regard, and we actually have even more content that we're gonna share with you around the CBE Week as it gets closer, but we're gonna hold some of those jewels back for ourselves. So we're excited about that for sure.Ade: Definitely.Zach: What else, Ade, housekeeping-wise? What else do we need to talk about?Ade: While we're gone, please keep sending us your letters if you want to vent, if you want to write, if you want to ask questions. We're on hiatus, but we can certainly--maybe get on Live and answer a couple questions.Zach: Ooh, that's a--what a good idea, yeah. I agree with that. No, we should definitely do that. That's a great idea.Ade: Thanks.Zach: Yeah, and then also--listen. Now, look, I'm not gonna share all of the--all of our download data 'cause I don't--you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to give away the sauce, but look, we have thousands--we have thousands upon thousands of downloads every month, right? And I share this to say I need y'all to give us five stars on iTunes, okay? Please. That would be a great holiday gift for us. Give us five stars. Like, right now I think we're around, like, 115 or so. I need to check again. I know that, like, they come in kind of in delays, but let's see if we can get to 200 before January. Can we do that? Can y'all get on and just give us five stars real fast? It don't take too much time, and I know y'all not some haters 'cause y'all listen to the show. Like, there's plenty of people--thousands of people listen to the show every month, so just go ahead and do that for us. The last thing is to make sure that you run back some episodes. I know that we publish on a weekly clip, and some people have commented like, "Man, y'all are really putting out a lot of content. It's hard for me to keep up." Like, thankfully it's a podcast, so you don't have to even quote-unquote keep up. Now you can just go back and listen to 'em. You have a little bit of a break. So make sure you check out some episodes if you missed anything. We have some really great content, really proud of it, and yeah. Okay. Well, if that's it--Ade, is there anything else you're thinking about?Ade: As y'all go into the holidays, I hope that you have a peaceful, blessed time. If you get to spend your time with your loved ones, I hope that you hold them close, you hold them tight, you have wonderful, wonderful memories--you make wonderful, wonderful memories, and if you are not around your loved ones or your chosen family, if you have to spend time in uncomfortable spaces in this holiday period, I pray for peace for you as well. I pray for ease for you as well, and, you know, make sure that you prioritize your mental health. The downside to a lot of the holidays is that you're sometimes surrounded by people who trigger you, people who put you in unhealthy situations, and I want you all to choose yourselves first. Take time off work because those people will replace you in a heartbeat if necessary. So as important as it is to build your brand, build yourself, like we were saying earlier, make sure you make time, you make space for healthy habits. I think that's all I have to say. Oh, see y'all next year. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, yeah, so we definitely will. And, man, echoing everything you just said, Ade. That's dope. That's super agreed. Hit us with the wisdom. I'm over here trying to rush out the door. Yeah. So you will hear other Living Corporate content, but as far as the Living Corporate regular season goes, you will hear us as a duo next year. So with that being said, you've been listening to Living Corporate. My name is Zach.Ade: I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Zach: [scat singing]Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down and talk about Black Texas Magazine with Founder, Editor & Chief Nickholas Bailey.Learn about Black Texas Magazine here:https://www.blacktexasmag.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is what? That's right, somebody's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows that we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow--that's right, you even guessed it--it's more lit. That's right. So there's lit. This is more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions that the hosts have. Sometimes they're extended monologues from just one particular host like myself or Ola or Latricia or Ade, or sometimes, yes, maybe even sometimes, maybe even most times, they're a special chat with a special guest. Today, we have a special guest - Nickholas Bailey. Nick Bailey is the editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine, a media outlet that is dedicated to enriching the lives of people of color across the state and beyond by connecting on a personal level through a passion for leading fulfilling lives. Welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Nick: I'm doing well, how are you?Zach: I'm doing good, man. Look, let's talk about Black Texas Magazine. Where did it start, why the name, and what are y'all trying to achieve?Nick: Well, Black Texas started kind of as a jumping point for me because prior to this, or about--oh, I guess about a year prior to this I was the online editor for a publication called Texas Lifestyle Magazine. Great publication. They've done a lot of great stuff, but as I--as I got further into it, I started to recognize that there was a disconnect between my perspective and the perspective that they were--that they were creating. You know, like, I live a very different lifestyle than the people that they target, you know? I'm not accustomed to paying $300 for a charcuterie board or paying, you know, $1,000 for, you know, a grill set. It just wasn't really my--it wasn't really my thing, and I was pushing for some more relatable content for the average Texan, and it just wasn't--there was a disconnect there, and so after a lot of thinking and a lot of planning I decided to make the jump and create a publication for black people that was essentially the same thing in some ways. Like, I don't want to say that we just copied and pasted the formula because, you know, unfortunately I created a lot of the formula for Texas Lifestyle once I came on, but I would say that our goal is to enrich the life of black Texans and really Texans of all colors by exposing them to new brands, new opportunities, and new experiences that they may not have previously known about or they may not have previously felt like were open to them, you know? So I know for a lot of--for a lot of black people in the community, we--we almost self-segregate with a lot of things, you know? We look at things as, "Oh, that's white people stuff. We don't really--we don't really mess with that," whether it be, you know, simple stuff or the wild stuff like bungee jumping or skydiving, which I'm still kind of on the fence on. Like, they might be able to keep those. [laughs] But even things like, you know, eating at different restaurants or trying different festivals and experiences. Just really making it more palatable for--you know, for the black community, because there are plenty of people in the black community that say, "Hey, I want to live life. I've only got one life. I want to enjoy it while I'm here," and finding the opportunities for them that will enhance their lives is really the big overarching goal for us, but also highlighting the black businesses that are trying that as well along the way.Zach: So it's interesting, right? So I looked at the platform, and, you know, I think what I was taken most aback by was the amount of content, right? Like, you guys--it seems like you guys are publishing something every single day, and so talk to me a little bit about y'all’s challenges in getting this started up and, you know, what goes into managing a digital magazine. How do you juggle--it seems that there's a lot of hats to juggle. It seems that there's a lot of things to do, and I understand that you're also working full-time still.Nick: Yes.Zach: So how do you manage all of that?Nick: I manage that with a lot of stress--a lot of stress, not a lot of sleep, and an overdose of patience, because we do have a small team. We're always looking--like, we're always looking for new writers to bring on-board, but right now we do have a small team, and it's really just a matter of balancing everyone's talents and abilities. Like, for the time being I take on the burden--I take on the bulk of the burden by handling a lot of the administrative tasks. So, like, making sure that content is up on the website, proofreading the content, gathering all of the materials. So that might be, like, getting the photos in order, sorting it--like, sorting our files and documents online. So I do a lot of that stuff, and so I have the writers, and I say, "Hey, I want you to focus on writing," and the plan that I have right now is really to kind of spread that load across--across the team so no one person is having to do all of the writing. 'Cause everybody--like, to my knowledge, everybody else is working full-time somewhere as well. So what I would rather them do is each person write, you know, one or two things a month, and we could be able to keep a steady flow than expecting one person to churn out, you know, a new article every week, you know? And with balancing it with working--like, I work full-time, and for me it's kind of difficult 'cause I work 12-hour shifts. So a lot of my work is done--I guess done at night, so I'm usually up until about 1:00 in the morning making sure that content is looking good, there's no errors and we're gonna be good to go.Zach: So I have another question as a follow-up, right, really to the title of Black Texas Magazine. Has anyone run up on you with, "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that would be racist?"Nick: Not that directly, but it's been one of those side--like, side-swiped questions. Like, "Hm, why is it just for black people?" And kind of insinuating that, and to that I would say, to be honest, most of the public--like, most of the Texas-based publications we have are catered to a white audience. And, you know, I'm not opposed to--I'm not opposed to acknowledging that it may seem--it may come off as a bit contentious to say, "This is a publication for black people," you know, but at the same time it's never been a situation of, you know, "No whites allowed," you know? We've had--we've had white contributors to our publication. We have a lot of white readers. We have readers all over the world, and most of those aren't, you know, nations of color. And so I would say if they want--if they asked the question or they posed the question or the statement "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that'd be racist," I would tell them, "Well, let's go read Texas Highways. Let's go read Texas Monthly. Let's go read Texas Lifestyle." The list could go on. Most publications are catering to a white audience. Like, they may not be as blatant as to say it, but it's one of those--I would say it's one of those underlying things of once you see the subject matter you--there are ways of siphoning out certain groups by the content.Zach: Right. And, you know, it's funny because I think it's easy to forget that white is the default, right? Like, it's--like, you don't have to call something for it to be--the majority of the country is white, so most of the content out there in any type of media is largely going to be white, right? So you don't have to call--I don't have to call something white, something anything, but you do call things--you know, if there is other underrepresented groups, black, XYZ, or Asian-this or Latin-X or Hispanic-this because we're trying to highlight the fact that this is not the default, right? It's not what you immediately consider when you think about whatever audience or population that you're gonna be engaging. Okay, so let me ask you this. You know, you guys landed J Prince recently, [inaudible] J Prince, but how did that happen for you guys? Like, how did it work, and what was that experience like?Nick: For me, honestly, it was an amazing experience. I lucked into it because I got--I got an email from the city of Austin about an event that they were co-hosting. It was just an evening with J Prince where he was just hearing Austin talking about his life, and I went, and I was like--I didn't know what to expect, and I was just like, "Man, I just want to see this guy in person, see, you know, really what he's about and just kind of, you know, measure him up instead of just looking through a screen," and it was a cool event. The event went off really well, and at the end there was a line to, like, you know, take a picture with him and stuff, and I was like, "Okay, cool." You know, "I don't mind getting a picture with J Prince. That'd be kinda cool," and so I get in line, and as always they're trying to sell the book or sell merchandise and stuff like that, and just out of, you know, the spur of the moment I'm like, "I'll buy the book," and so I get the book, and when it's my turn he autographs the book and everything, and I ask him a question, and the question I asked him is, you know, "Hey--" Like, he talks about--he talked a lot about, you know, replacing IGs with OGs in terms of, you know, getting off of social media and really linking up with people that have done what we do before us and really gaining some knowledge from them, especially, like, in different entertainment avenues. A lot of the OGs that we came up with came up through nefarious ways, you know? They sold drugs, they robbed people. They committed crimes to get the assets that they needed, and so I asked him, you know, "How can we look up to these OGs and get advice from them when we're at a age where we don't want to take those penitentiary chances to make it into the industry?" And I think it kind of--it kind of put him on the spot, and he stopped and he said, "You know what? Talk to me after the show."Zach: You asked him--you asked him that in front of a bunch of people?Nick: No, it was--like, it was a one-on-one thing. I asked him, like, face-to-face, maybe two feet away from him.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Well, shout out to you for asking J Prince such a very pointed question to his face.Nick: You can't get the answers you don't ask for.Zach: [laughs] That's a good point.Nick: You know? 'Cause I would love to be in different indust--like, involved in different industries, but I don't wanna have to go sell coke to get the money for it.Zach: Straight up, yeah.Nick: But at the same time, trying to save money from a regular 9-to-5 is a very slow process.Zach: And this is the thing I think people forget, like, man, the blessing of an--you cannot, you cannot undervalue initial capital, man. Like--so you know, like, even when you talk about Jay-Z's album, the last album he dropped right, and he was talking about how I flipped this, and it's like, "Well, Jay-Z, man, you started off with, like, 400 racks. You had $400,000 from the coke game, so you say." So it's like, "Okay, yeah." If you--if you gave a very ambitious, you know, entrepreneurial person of color $400,000, man, that's gonna--yeah, they could flip that into something too. I'm not saying--they might not flip it into a billion, but they can flip it into something because they have the initial capital. So to your point, like, how--that just was such a good question because, like, okay, I'ma talk--if I talked to Jay-Z for an hour, people would say, "I'd love to talk to Jay-Z for an hour 'cause then I would learn how to be a billionaire." It's like, "Well, Jay-Z's gonna be like, "Well, I had initial capital of $400,000 because I sold drugs, and it was tax free. So I basically started with a 400--" Like, most black people don't have seed money, hundred thousand dollar seed money. They have a little bit of change here and there that they scrounge up, like you said. Like, that they hold over from their full-time job after paying off this and paying off that and whatever debt they have, and they have, you know, a little bit of change, not enough money to build an empire. You know what I'm saying?Nick: Absolutely, and that was--and after listening to Jay-Z's album, that was one of the things that I kind of left with. I was like, you know, "He talks a lot about, you know, these amazing ways to do better," and it's one of those things of "If you knew better, you'd do better." And that's cool. Like, I would love to buy a piece of art that's worth, you know, 1 million, hold it until it's worth 2 million, sell it when it's worth 10 million. That's cool. I would love to be able to give that to my children, but I gotta get that first million.Zach: Right. [laughs]Nick: It's easy--it's easy to compound wealth once you have it, and a lot of rappers talk about that part, but they don't really tell us how we can get the money, how we can get started without selling drugs, without robbing people. That's--like, that's the link they never give us, and I think that unfortunately that's because a lot of them don't have the answer for that, aside from "Sell drugs. Rob people." And that's an unfortunate truth. Like, I get it, that's the environment they came up in, but if we're trying to do better now we need new lessons.Zach: Right, right. So let me ask--let me ask you this. What advice would you have for black and brown folks trying to get, you know, multi-effort ventures off of the ground? So you have a full-time job. You've launched a magazine. It takes multiple hands, driving it and grinding it. It clearly--like you said earlier, it's stress. It's late nights. What are you--what advice would you have for folks who look like us trying to do similar things?Nick: The strongest advice I would give is work together. In college I ran a midterm program, and one of the things I taught was the idea of collective development. You know, especially if you're starting off with little to no capital. You're--like, you're working at a point where you're not getting paid. You need to find a team of people who are willing to work with you to build something up that benefits everybody, you know? Like, Black Texas isn't just me. It's not the Nick Bailey show, you know? My byline comes up very little. For me, I look at it as a plat--as I'm creating a platform to advance the careers of other people, you know? Because as we gain our audience and as we, you know, get that brand retention, that brand recognition, people start coming to the website looking for other people. They're not looking for me, you know? They're looking to see, "Oh, let's see what's up with these movie reviews. Let's see what's up with these fashion tips. Let's see what's up with these house-keeping tips." You know, "What events are coming up?" I want--I want people looking for the thoughts and ideas of other people, and for me in my particular situation I can say, "Hey, I can't pay you to write right now, but what I can give you is an opportunity to grow your name," because not everybody has the money to start up a website, you know? Even the cheapest websites that aren't free aren't cheap. Once you get past the, you know, this is BrandXYZ.WordPress.com and you get to just Brand.com, it becomes a different--a different financial burden, and not everybody--not everybody is willing to take that risk, and I've gotten to a point where I took that risk to--ideally to make it easier for other people. So I would say, you know, one, be willing to work together. Understand the vision. Don't just work for anybody, but understand the vision. Understand what it means for you personally and how it's going to benefit you personally, and then you give it your all, you know? Like, that's the truest thing that I can tell anyone, and also set ego aside, you know? Not everybody's going to be #1, and not everybody needs to be #1. You can easily do amazing as a strong #2, and what I mean by that is not everybody has to be a CEO. Not everybody has to be the founder, the president. You know? Like, I don't introduce myself as the founder or CEO of Black Texas because that's not important to me, you know? I want this to be something much bigger than myself. I'm the editor-in-chief, which is just to say I'm the guy steering the ship right now, you know? Like, I don't look at the--I don't look at the Dallas Cowboys and think of who the owner is, I look at the Cowboys and think of who are their star players, you know? Who are the people who made the team breathe? And that's how I look at--that's how I look at Black Texas and really any business, you know? We know--we know who Mark Zuckerberg is. That's cool. He made it that way. He's not the one looking at all this Russia info. He's not the one making sure that you wind up in Facebook jail for some post, [laughs] and those people may not have the fame, but they're getting us all a paycheck.Zach: Right. Right, right. Man, this has been dope, man. Do you have any shout outs for us?Nick: I did not think of shout outs. Let's see. If there are people I'd shout out, honestly I would just give shout outs to my team. It's been--like, we launched this year mid-January, and it's been a wild ride along the way. I've taken risks. I've asked them to follow me, and they have, and we really--we really made a lot of strides this year, and I'm proud to see the work they're putting in and what we're able to accomplish when we work together, you know? This is the first time that I've really steered a team like this, and to see them, you know, putting up the hard work is honestly amazing. I would want to give a shout out to my family, you know? Like, I love my daughters, but most importantly, like, my parents. They have been a well of support for me. They've encouraged me to, you know, chase my dreams. They've helped me when I--like, when I wasn't sure about myself, and, you know, my grandma's been my day one, and she's helped me in life as well, but I don't know. I would say--if I had to give a specific shout out it would be to my father, and that's because he gave me the capital to get this magazine started, you know? 'Cause, like, every year he'll give--like, he'll give a gift for Christmas, which really isn't a gift to me, it's more of a "Hey, here's some money from me. Get gifts for the girls," because he doesn't really--he doesn't really celebrate Christmas. Different religion. That's not really his thing, and so I get it, but this last year he gave me a little more than usual, and he said, you know, "Take this and do what, you know, you feel you need to do with it," and I was just at a loss, and I thought and I thought about it. I strategized, and I prayed over it, and I said, "You know, I have to be willing to take that jump," you know? It called me back to a quote from Steve Harvey talking about getting to success, and he said, you know, "You have to be willing to jump. You can't be successful on the ledge," and so I went for it. And so, you know, I've got to give it my all because I can't--I can't let folks down. That's not my thing.Zach: Awesome, man. Well, look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You have been listening to Nick Bailey, editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with creator Matthew Manning to discuss his entrepreneurial journey in launching Gumbo Media.Learn about Gumbo here: https://gumbomedia.com/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, every episode is someone's first episode, so for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow even more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Today, we have a special guest - Matthew Manning. Matthew is the co-founder and [inaudible] director of Gumbo Media, a trans-media storytelling platform of curated content and experiences to expand the narrative of black life through various programs, services, and content platforms. Gumbo is amplifying new nuance and more humanity into our stories, creating pipelines that encourage us to speak for ourselves. Today, Gumbo is a coalition of over 60 artists, activists, entrepreneurs, and allies committed to a collective vision of inclusive representation. Matthew, welcome to the show, man.Matthew: Hey, thank you, man. I really appreciate it.Zach: Hey, man, I appreciate you being here, man. Now, look, today we're talking about starting a startup. Talk to us a little bit about your history and how Gumbo started.Matthew: Yeah. I think there are a few ways to tell this story, but to keep it simple, Gumbo, which was formally Royal Media, really emerged from a gap. It was a gap that my co-founder and I, Courtney Phillips, felt--to be honest on a personal level, but it translated into some of the professional. Representation was lacking, even in our jobs, in our classes. You know, anywhere we went that was professional or academic, educational, just social, it felt like we were often wearing a mask, or perhaps more aptly like we were living half of ourselves. And when the deaths of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling happened in the same week a few days apart, it was a difficult week for us. They were killed, and we instantly felt this shift that we couldn't come back from. And this had been already--this had already been happening with the deaths of black [inaudible] by the police force and kind of the growth of racial discord, but this heightened those feelings. We were forever changed, and we knew that our work in some way had to reflect it. One of the things that we were saying at the time was, you know, we really feel our tide shifting. And so what we did was we ideated and thought about what is a platform that we can build that allows these stories to be better heard, that allows us to feel like that representation is present in our own spaces? You know, kind of a cross-culture, and so essentially we built a squad of creatives who felt the same way, and then we asked ourselves, you know, how we can build--how we can build a platform and use content and storytelling in unique ways to really amplify the underrepresented, if you will. So additionally, how can we ensure that the voices of everyday people aren't swallowed or silenced by, you know, silencing forces, including sometimes those that are intra-communal, those that are within our own community. And lastly, we thought about how do we ensure that this becomes an equitable platform where others can engage and tell their stories, not merely a stage where we yell out the answers? You know? We don't want to speak for people. We want to create a pipeline and a platform that allows for people to speak for themselves, and that's really where the--you know, where the secret sauce is for us, if you will. We're all exploring, learning, and growing together, and black being has bound us, and so we really wanted to create a space that honors this truth that is consciously committed to amplifying all of its nuances and all of its complexities, especially by offering up space to the creatives among us who really do their thing and allow those expressions to be seen and heard around the world.Zach: Man, that's amazing. So I'm curious, right? So in starting any startup, building any company, you're gonna take your Ls along the way, right? So I'm curious, what were some of the biggest Ls--and I'ma call those Ls lessons, folks--that you've taken in starting a startup?Matthew: Well, this is my second go around, and so a lot of them I gathered from the first and used as kind of fuel for the second, and so some of the things that I think I've really learned are--and I'll speak more to the lesson portion of it. One is strip away your ego, especially as men. I think it's ingrained that, you know, we're kind of conditioned to feel like we know and we have all the authority and the agency and our voice, and so I think it's important to strip away our ego and to understand if we're doing what we're doing for ourselves or for others. I think it's okay to be both, but others should be a part of it, at least if it's something that's socially-minded, right? And for us it's more important that we get content right or that we tell the story in the--in the right way, that we are as inclusive as we can be, than that it is that I'm right, and so I think that's something that has been to remind ourselves of, all of us, but for me that starts with me, especially as kind of a leader in the company along with a few other folks. It's important that I try to be as prideless and egoless as I can be. We can be proud of our work. We can have confidence in our voice, but those voices can't be silencing of other people. Another one is just don't be afraid to fail. In fact, I've learned to really embrace it. Not in the sense that I'm encouraging or that I'm seeking out failure, but in a way I--I suppose in a way I actually am, you know? In a sense that I want to succeed, but I also know and recognize that failing fast and failing forward is one of the fastest ways to grow, you know? It's important to seek out growth. It's important to seek out criticism even, to better understand how we can refine our own processes and things of that nature. So failing, especially as an entrepreneur, allows you to really be the best version of yourself and to implement those lessons moving forward. Beyond that, it's really about doing it for the love, you know? Passion is, I think, the only fuel that's really strong enough to push us through some of these experiences. Being an entrepreneur is hard, man. As you know, it's hard work. You and your team are grinding every day. You're building. When you look at something that you admire, like a company, a movement, a platform, whatever it might be, and you say, "Okay, I want to get there," like, that's a--that's a large question. How do you get from nothing to...Zach: Something.Matthew: Everything that you admire. To something, exactly. It's a hard thing, and so if you're not doing it for the passion, if you're not doing it for the love, then, you know, then I just don't know that you're gonna have enough fuel, enough motivation to push you through all those little moments, all those difficult questions, all those shortcomings, because those are inevitable parts of the journey, and they're actually part of what makes the journey so beautiful. So valuing every step of that journey is a lot easier the second time around, granted, but those are all valuable things to keep in mind for me. Those have been big lessons.Zach: Man, that's a great point. And it's funny because, you know, you and I connected back--initially back when, you know, Gumbo was Royal, and I was working on another--on another nonprofit, and, you know, definitely--this is also my second go around with Living Corporate, right, and trying to figure out and take the lessons learned from my past venture to this, and it's like, okay. You're absolutely right. Like, failing forward, right? And, like, to your point around being passionate and letting that passion drive you, 'cause I can tell you--I mean, I completely vibe with you on the whole "It's a lot of work," and it has to be something you're passionate about because, you know, it's gonna be long days and long nights, and if you don't really, really care, like really care about what you're doing, you know, you'll end up taking time off, you know? Your content gets delayed. You get delayed, and then out of nowhere you look up and you haven't moved anything in a month, right? And a month in an entrepreneur's--a month of no activity in an entrepreneur's world is like a year, right? Like, you've got to keep it going. So--Matthew: Then there's also the comparative sense too, right? Which is that if you don't really care, there's always somebody out there that does care and that cares more and that is putting in that work, and so if you really want to make it, if you want to, you know, make what you're doing a success, if not for yourself then for the others that you're serving, then, you know, you need to put in that--you need to put in that work to get there and be smart about it.Zach: Right. And it's funny, right? So it's--and of course there's a duality in, like, not being so comparative that you end up robbing yourself of your own journey and your own development and driving your thing, but there's still the reality of, like, "Look, there's two people, Matthew, sitting down right now talking about something similar to what you and I are talking about and grinding," right? And there's always somebody else out there trying to--and if the goal is for your platform to grow and get out there, no one's gonna cry for you, right? You have to go, and you have to go get it, and I think--because I'm a Type A in that particular way and I'm a driver that really resonates with me, but like I said earlier, I think you have to kind of balance it between not going to the far end where you end up sapping yourself of the joy of even what you got into it for, you know what I mean?Matthew: Absolutely, I agree.Zach: So let me ask you this. What was the--what was the final push? Let's talk about Gumbo. Let's talk about Gumbo. What was the final push for you to pursue and commit to growing Gumbo full-time? And what all are you working on these days?Matthew: Yeah. So the final push was--I mean, it was interesting, right? 'Cause sometimes I say and think often that, you know, life is like water. I think I heard Will Smith say this someday, and it's just kind of laws of attraction, right? Like, you put in--the energy you put in comes back to you, and life in a lot of ways is kind of like water in that way in that if you make a decision, if you decide what you want to do and you start moving, it'll get out of the way. It'll make a path for you, even if it's masked under something else, right? So when we started at the time what was Royal Media, which our language at the time was celebrating the complexity of black life, which we're still doing, but it's now more embedded in what we're doing, I actually was laid off my full-time job. I was a nonprofit consulting. The company--I won't mention the company, but they've grown. I was part of, you know, an 8-person team that had grown to about 16 people, and then they laid off about three quarters of the workforce in a matter of months, and I was on the front end of that. So it wasn't just me, but I think likely part of the energy I was putting into that job was something that was lackluster. I was doing my job, I was being professional, but I also recognized that what I really wanted to do was this work over here. What I really wanted to do was commit to telling the stories and building the pipelines that allow black folks to really celebrate and honor themselves and each other, and that was passion to me, and I think that was felt, but I also think that was felt, you know, kind of cosmically, in a cosmic sense if you will. And so that was kind of a forced push, but at that time I recognized that, "All right. Well, if I'm already in this space, if I've already kind of taken the jump, even forcibly, maybe it's wise that I use the time that I have here to commit to growing this company as much as I can," especially as one of its co-founders. That's an unfair weight to put on other people, you know? When it's not paid work yet, when it's something that's scaling. It's, like, early, early, early stages of startup life. Maybe I'm the right person to do that, and so I did, and I've kind of continued to grind on that. It hasn't been easy by any--you know, any stretch of the word, but it was simple, right? I think there's a difference between simplicity and [inaudible], and I think we often conflate the two. It's a choice. The choice is simple - do it or don't. The path can be very difficult, and the path has been difficult, but the choice was simple. I knew what I wanted to do and I committed to doing it, and, you know, (tried it?) to say after some time we built enough--Gumbo's essentially an umbrella brand, and so it has other subsidiary groups and companies, and one of them is a creative consultancy, and now I'm one of the full-time consultants in that group. So now I'm starting to pay myself through business revenue to do work that ultimately feeds my soul, feeds my passion, and is a company that I started, and that feels great. And so it's taken some time, but it's becoming sustainable work now for me. And so it was kind of a forcible thing, but it was also energy that I put out there that came back at me and said, "You know what? You're ready for this."Zach: So for those--for those who say they can't afford to pursue their startup full-time, like, what would you say? Right? And if I may ask, like, how did you make it work before you were able to pay yourself?Matthew: Right. It's difficult. I would say that there are--one person I really admire who's hustling in this space, and you guys admire them as well, is John Henry.Zach: Oh, yeah. Shout out to John Henry, straight up.Matthew: Yeah, shout out to John Henry from Harlem Capital. He's doing some amazing work. One thing that he says often is, you know, you can work two things, but the moment that the new thing that you're building is losing money by not committing full-time, that's the moment to transition, and so I think if you have the capacity and you have kind of the agency to be at a job that you can enjoy, that you can continue to grind at while you're building your venture on the side, I think that is a wise choice if you have that--if the energy's there, right? If it fits, until there's a moment, and you'll know when that moment comes. Like, you'll know when you're actually being a detriment to your venture because you'll feel that your energy is the most valuable asset you have, and so there will come a shifting moment where you can make that shift and take that plunge. Beyond that though, I would say it's really about thinking creatively about your capacity and about what you're able to do, you know? Especially as creatives. A lot of us have skills that are accessible and valuable as freelancers. I mean, we've started this consultancy, and I know that this is a part of what's paying us now, but the valuable feedback that I recognized in that--you know, stepping back for a moment is that we have a pool of creatives who are looking for work, and a whole lot of business is coming to us asking for work to be done. So there is work out there ready to be accomplished. There are people who are requesting services, and so there are ways to kind of creatively find, you know, services to help pay you and support you while you're building what you're doing. Maybe it's about living a life that's a little bit more--a little bit more frugal, living a life that's a little bit more reserved, you know? But you can make it kind of on a part-time basis depending on what your expenses are and what you're doing to buy yourself that time so that you can open up as much flexibility and time as possible during the day. You know, I didn't think about how much of a privilege it was that I could have a meeting any literally time of the day, you know? If I'm working 9-to-5, a lot of people don't want to meet--a lot of business people specifically, new partners, potential investors, they don't want to meet after 5:00, they don't want to meet on the weekends, and, like, I don't know what my solution would be to that apart from taking off time from work if I had a full-time job. So I do think there is a moment when you know that a plunge is necessary to take that next step, you know? Businesses are all about plateaus. Well, they're all about growth, but every growth curve has a plateau unless you make another shift, unless you, you know, invite new kind of breath, new life, new wind into the company, and for me I recognize that in order to take this to the next level, I need to take a step, and I need to do this for myself passion-wise and joy-wise, but also for the team in terms of the work that we're doing. So it's just about being creative, and that's kind of what I did. So I did some graphic design, I did some editing, content creation, things of that nature, you know? But I'd be lying if I said it was easy. It was not easy. It was one of the harder things I've ever done, but it paid off.Zach: Man, that's amazing. So look, before we let you go, do you have any shout outs or any parting words?Matthew: Yeah. I mean, I would love to shout out the squad always. Courtney, Andre, [inaudible], Amir, Asia, Mike, John, [inaudible]...Zach: Let's get some air horns for the team, for the squad.[Sound Man throws 'em in]Matthew: Yeah. I mean, we do it all collectively, you know? And I feel blessed to call these people my family. I guess what I would say is to get yourself a squad, you know? Failure, I think, is easier when it's shared. Triumphs are more fun when they're collective, but also strategy becomes easier, I think, for a startup to fill. Like, when you're filling an asset map, when you're filling all of the things that you're capable of doing, it's easy when you have a team. It's more enjoyable, and I think it's a great way to understand that, you know, my skills may not be in finance per se, but I'm great at this [inaudible] stuff. I'm great at people. I'm great at programs. This person's great at event curation. This person's great at content. So once you start building and assembling that, that's really where it's kind of the shortcut--there are no shortcuts, but it's the faster route, I guess, to finding a more equitable and well-rounded form of success for whatever your business might be, and so that would be my parting words. Those people I love, I'm fortunate to call them family, and I encourage you to get you some of your own.Zach: That's so dope, man. Well, look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.livingcorporate.com. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We're gonna just cut all that out. So let me ask--oh, we're gonna cut this 'cause I want to make sure you plug Gumbo, like--Matthew: Oh, yeah.Zach: So I know you gave your parting words, Matthew, but man, we didn't even plug Gumbo. Like, where can people find out more about the platform? Like, plug all your stuff, man. Drop some air horns for Matthew real quick, and then let's go ahead and plug your stuff, brother. Where you at?[Sound Man complies]Matthew: [laughs] Yeah, appreciate that. You know, the best way to find us across the board is GumboMedia.com. We were lucky to get a solid domain, excited about that since we kind of rebranded and relaunched a lot of our mission, and so everything is housed there. You'll find access to all of our content, all of our social, all of that stuff at GumboMedia.com. You can find us on Gumbo Media just by searching really any platform. So yeah, we're--you know, we're out here. We're creating. We're always inviting collaboration, innovation, so reach out, you know? Get involved if you're interested. We have about 60 creatives that we're working with and a core team of about 6 or 7, but we're scaling and building and always looking to build, so hit us up.Zach: Awesome. Well, look, that does it for us, folks. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question that you would like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. This has been Zach, and you've been talking with Matthew Manning, founder of Gumbo Media. Peace.Matthew: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with TJ and talk about his path to joining the tech industry and what people of color can do to engage it further.Learn more about tech: ROOTsTechnology.infoConnect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: I'm sure many of our listeners can relate to the concept of familial pressure, and as many immigrant or first-generation young adults may know, the career path for us is often limited to that of a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. I chose the path of a lawyer when I was younger. However, as I've evolved as a person so have my interests, and I'm not alone in this. Many of us have seen leaps in technology that have piqued interest in previously unexplored fields. So with that in mind, it should be of no surprise that it is one of the fastest growing industries in the world with revenue within the industry projected to reach $351 billion. It also makes it an inviting field for groups that have been underrepresented in this industry until now. The question is what does it look like to make the pivot? My name is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. [intro]Ade: So today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. As many of you may know, this would resonate with me. I've shared at least two or three times this season, but for those of you who are new, I'm actively making the career pivot into software engineering, which was not my focus in college. The journey so far has included some extremely long hours, some late nights, a ton of mistakes, a couple of wins--a couple of little wins--and many, many failures. Zach: Yeah. You know, we could've done a better job promoting your journey through Living Corporate's Instagram because your IG stories are great. Like, I'll see you posting pictures of your laptop screen with a bunch of code on it, you being in all these all-day workshops, books you're digging in to help build your technical chops. It's been inspiring to see.Ade: Thanks. Thank you. Part of what I am interested in is making tech more accessible. It's all around us, and engaging in tech means often--more than just being a coder. Being a coder is awesome, but there is so much more to tech than that.Zach: Right. I mean, to your point, because there's technology in everything that we do, there's a myriad of ways to work in tech. As an example, I'm a change management consultant in technology. I don't know how to code a thing, yet, but I'm still actively engaged in the industry because I bring other skills to the table to help implementations and things of that nature to be more successful.Ade: Right, and along that train of thought, there's space for all of us at the table--word to Solange--but it comes down to exposure and engagement. For me, I had two primary barriers. One, I didn't know what tech meant. It seemed like this vague, really nebulous space, and that was scary. I like when words mean things, and I like when I understand what those words mean. And the second big barrier for me was that I did not know how to get there. I had no road map. I had graduated from college, and there was no counselor, adviser who was like, "Take these classes and you'll get there," and "These are the steps." I had to figure it out for myself, but in figuring it out for myself I came to understand that the tech space is made up of people, some really amazing people, and therefore completely accessible. Just like you are a person, they are people, and so this is a space that you can absolutely find your way in. Zach: Right, and as you alluded to in the intro, professionals of color as well-served to seek entry into industries that are growing and positioned to be on or around the top, but it would be great if we could speak to someone more about this topic, right? Someone who--maybe they're, like, a first-generation American who changed their career, made a career pivot after college and got into tech, but not only that, they leveraged their passion and network to teach other ethnic minorities skills to get them into the tech space as well.Ade: Wait, you mean like our guest TJ Oyeniyi?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaaat?Zach: Sound Man! [makes air horn noises] Come on, drop 'em in. You know it. Just put 'em right in there. Let's go. Ade: [laughs] All right. So next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, TJ. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. TJ, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for joining us.TJ: Thank you. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: Hey, no problem, man. So look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?TJ: Yeah. So my name is Tolu Oyeniyi, and most people know me as TJ, which I completely made up while watching Smart Guy one day. I was born in Nigeria, [inaudible], and I grew up in Dallas, Texas. I did my undergrad at UT Austin and grad school at Arizona State, and I am currently in the second year of my career switch as a software engineer. Zach: Man, that's amazing. So look, today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. Before you got into technology or the tech space explicitly, what were you doing? And what spurred your interest in the tech space?TJ: Ah, what was I doing? So I was working as a business analyst at a small health tech company in Austin at the time, and I was also a really big volunteer in Austin. Like, when I moved back to Austin from Dallas for work, I told myself, like, "Anything black," like, just anything dealing with underrepresented groups, I wanted to volunteer time to just help and, you know, just try to, like, give back any way possible. And I ended up, like, volunteering for a host of different events 'til I stumbled upon this one event called hackathon at Huston-Tillotson University, which is an HBCU and actually the first higher education institute in Austin during South By, and the purpose of the hackathon was to basically introduce black and brown students to tech, and I volunteered as a mentor to basically help students flesh out their ideas and, you know, ultimately try to build, like, a working product at the end of those two days for the hackathon. And what, like, really triggered the idea of, like, learning to code or just teaching people how to code was when I parked in front of this, like, brand new house across from, like, HT in east Austin, which, you know, used to be, like, an old black neighborhood in Austin. And, you know, this house was a reminder that this area was being gentrified, largely by a lot of people that are--that come into Austin because of tech, and just kind of, like, thinking, "Man," like, "All these black and brown kids," and just, like, families in these areas are being priced out of here because they don't really have access into this industry and don't really know, like, the basics, you know, to even be able to try to, like, you know, have a chance to, like, try in this industry. And that kind of frustrated me a bit, and I thought one day, "You know what? It would be real impactful if somebody was teaching these kids to code," and I just, like, jokingly mentioned to a friend--you know, to my friend at the event, like, "Bruh, you know, I think I'm gonna mess around and learn how to code so I can teach these kids to code."Zach: Wow. [laughs]TJ: The guy I was talking to was a software engineer for IBM. He was like, "Oh, really? Can you code?" I was like, "I do," but I didn't know anything about coding, bruh. I worked as a business analyst. I did, like, design software, but I don't actually build it. But yeah, I had the crazy idea of learning to code so that I could learn to teach black and brown kids to code. And I didn't really learn to, like, make a career switch. I just wanted to basically help other people, like, break into the industry. And I did that for about a year until I basically got this useless promotion at work. [laughs]Zach: Why was it useless? [laughs]TJ: It was useless, man. I was--I was working as a business analyst, making--you know, for a health tech company, making 37,500 in Austin--Zach: Wow. Wow, that's really low.TJ: Ooh. Man, you said wow and it just--it brought back all the pain from those days. [laughs] Oh, God. But yeah, and I had gotten a promotion to senior business analyst, right? You know, big time. I'm thinking big time. Everything got a promotion [inaudible]. My [inaudible] got a promotion, my responsibilities. Everything but my salary.Zach: Oh, no. But that's really what happens though.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Hold on, bruh." [laughs] "Hold on, bruh. Wait, what's going on?" 'Cause my, you know, coworkers got a raise. Why in the world did I not get one? So I started having this, like, back-and-forth with my manager like, "Hey, man. You know, I've been doing all this," you know? "My output is looking really good," et cetera, et cetera. Like, I've been here for over a year, you know? What's up? And I just got promoted. So he eventually went to bat for me with the CEO, and they got me a promotion. Like, I--man, I remember that day well. He came into the office and we had a meeting, and he was so happy to, like, announce to me that I had gotten a raise. I was like, "Okay. What's that money looking like, bruh?" He's like, "Yeah. So TJ, we're gonna take you from $37,500 to $39,998."Zach: Oh, no.TJ: I was like, "Hey, bruh. You guys really couldn't have added a couple dollars more?" [laughs] You know, to at least make it 40K, bruh. Really? I was--I was like, "Okay, wow. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it." I mean, I went back to my desk with this look like, "I'm leaving." I was, like, mid-twenties, just thinking, "Man, I'm not gonna be fighting for 40K." Like, "I'm not trying to build my life and career off of that," 'cause--you know, 'cause the question then was how long 'til I reach, like, 60K?Zach: Right. No, it's a real question. Right.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Bruh." Man...Zach: God forbid six figures, right? Like, come on. Right, yeah.TJ: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, "Jeez, I'ma be, like, 40 to 50 years old before I see any kind of money where, you know, I can just kind of be at peace?" Basically, right? 'Cause I had, like, a lot of loans coming from grad school 'cause I also did grad school out of state. But yeah, so I was very, like, frustrated by that, and by this time I had been learning to code for about a year and, like, you know, teaching it as well, but at that time I basically just knew the basics of building, like, web pages and websites. You know, just simple HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Bootstrap. You know, that type of stuff. But I went home and I was just like, "You know what, man? I'm not gonna be here fighting to try to make 40-something K." Like, my financial goals were way bigger than that, and I was like, "I have to make a change," and all of my software engineer friends are banking, and, you know, so far this stuff seems pretty straightforward. So I basically went to this event or something at IBM I think, and I saw this printout of a job posting for an engineer role at IBM, and it had all these skills and requirements. You know, just basically all this stuff on there, and I basically used that posting to update the curriculum that I was using to teach.Zach: Oh, wow. Yeah.TJ: This happened, like--man, I think this happened around June or July 2016, and I basically took that job posting and I put it, like, right next to my desk in my room, and I put a date on there. Like, December 2016 was how long I gave myself. I was like, "By December 2016 latest, I should be working as a software engineer. Period." Zach: Let's go. Wow. Yeah, that's amazing.TJ: So yeah, basically that is what kind of spurred me making that career change, and it's just crazy how it all started, how I actually only started learning to code so that I could teach other people so they could break into the industry and make more money when I was over here broke. [laughs] Maybe I should make the switch.Zach: Right. You know, I'll say this. It's funny. I truly believe any time you attach your purpose with people you're going to see rewards on the other side, right? TJ: Oh, yeah.Zach: Right? So your whole angle, your whole mission was "How can I serve someone else?" And then as you were building to serve others, the fates came together to make sure that you were taken care of. So that's really exciting, and I think something else that I hope our listeners are picking up on is that you were tenacious about it, right? So the information was out there, you did your own research, you put yourself out there, you were willing to be uncomfortable, and you drove to get there. Let me ask you something about this program that you started to teach other folks, specifically youth, how to code. What is the program, and why do you believe coding is so important? Why do you do it today? Like, why do you continue to do it today?TJ: Well, so the program was called ROOTs Technology, and I was basically teaching classes on Saturdays at the time in, like, a lower income part of Austin. Yeah, and for me, at the time I thought it was, like, a really good chance to provide an opportunity for kids that were already interested in tech somehow to just learn more of the hard skills to try to, like, pick up the chance to try to break into the industry or to ultimately start, like, their own stuff on the side in terms of, like, building websites for people or just, like, building--or just building their own app ideas [inaudible] actually. So yeah, I mean, that--man, teaching is hard, bruh. Teaching is very hard. I always knew that our teachers were undervalued, underpaid and underappreciated, but that, like, knowledge took a different form when I actually, like, experienced being in the shoes of a teacher for just, like, a couple hours once a week, because there were some students in my class that they didn't know where they were going to eat unless they came to my class because Subway, like, sponsored lunches. You know? So it was like--there were so many, like, hurdles outside of the actual class that basically made it hard for students to retain information and to basically achieve the goal that they set out to achieve. So yeah, that was tough, and I ultimately had to, like, pull back on the program. So now I have the curriculum online, and it is open to any and everybody to use, and I just make myself available as a mentor to help people to get unstuck as they are working through the curriculum, you know? Because everything is online and self-paced, so.Zach: So let's make sure that we'll--we'll make sure to put those resources in the show notes because I think that's amazing. I think--you know, certain people--for me as an example, right, I'm a good Googler. Like, I don't have an issue looking something up and figuring out or, you know, reaching out and talking to people, but that isn't always--that's not everyone's strong suit. Having a place where all of that information is consolidated and available I think is a big deal, and there's plenty of people out there that really see tech as, like, this big, just amorphous thing that you can't really wrap your arms around or that it's only for super, super quantitative math geniuses and things of that nature. So let me ask you this. If you could give people, especially minorities, who don't have a tech background but want to get into the space three tips, what would they be?TJ: One, decide what you want to do, and if you don't already know what you want to do in this industry or you just don't know anything about tech, just start looking for local tech meet-ups in your area and start attending and just--just ask questions. Like, you will always find people that are willing to just, like, answer questions and at least help you and point you in the right direction. And two, like, find people that want--once you figure out what you want to do, find people in this industry that are where you want to be and approach them to basically help you come up with a plan to get there. And then three, you have to really, like, sacrifice and grind. Like, set a timeline and let other people know to basically help to keep you accountable to your goals and get to work, you know? Like, this--this, like, took me over a year and a half of just, like, teaching myself and just grinding, and my last, like, five months, I actually--like, once I decided that I wanted to make the switch into being an engineer, I think I spent about, like, seven months of just, like, really sacrificing and grinding. No more happy hours. No more brunch. Dollar mimosas, and God knows I love, like, dollar mimosas. Like, I--Zach: Dollar mimosas, yeah. [laughs]TJ: You know? I basically I had to give, like, so much up. Like, I was working full-time and coming home, and basically from 6:00 P.M. to, like, 1:00 or 2:00 A.M. I was just studying. Seven days a week. Just grinding and sacrificing. The only people that saw me on a regular basis were my coworkers and my sister 'cause she lives with me, but that was it, you know? I basically went into a hole to, you know, try to put in the work to achieve my goals, and I basically showed up with a brand new software engineering job a few months later.Zach: Well, see--that's just so inspirational, right? Because, again, I think we talk a lot about things we say that we want to do, but the reality is it takes work. It takes sacrifice. Anything that you want to really build that's gonna be sustainable, not a fad or not something passing in any way, it takes time, and it takes actual work. And it's funny because, you know, you didn't pull those hours out of nowhere. You had to give up some comfort so that you could eventually get where you wanted to go. So that's--that's just amazing. I'm really encouraged by this story. This has been a great conversation. Before we wrap up, TJ, do you have any shout outs?TJ: Man, I have a lot of shout outs.Zach: Go ahead. Get it going.TJ: [laughs] So yeah, first shout outs will be to Dara Oke and Sammy [inaudible]. They were my engineering friends at the time that basically helped point me in the right direction when I was coming up with this self-paced curriculum to, you know, teach people, and then after that, shout out to Yusuf [inaudible] and the African-American Youth Harvest Foundation, which is where the classes for ROOTs Technology were at, and Yusuf was another engineer at the time that basically started learning to code back then like I did and wanted to make the switch over, and he would actually volunteer with me to help teach the class as well. And yeah, again, he achieved it as well. He has been working as a software engineer for the past two years. And also shout out to [inaudible] for just being, like, a really big support--just a really good friend and mentor in this, like, tech journey. Like, E is an engineer. He's worked at IBM on the Watson project, DO doing, like, [inaudible] stuff, and now he's over at GitHub, and he always does a very good job of just, you know, trying to help lift as he's climbing, and I was, you know, one of those people that he, like, really helped along the way in my own journey. And also a big shout out to my fiance Queen and my sister [inaudible], who gave me a place to live while I was--while I didn't have my own place for a few months. And just a really big shout out to all of my family and friends that were there to support me and to, like, push me on throughout this whole journey.Zach: Man, that's beautiful, man, and again, we thank you for your time. We love your story. We definitely consider you a friend of the show. We hope to have you back, man.TJ: Awesome. Awesome, sir. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: All right, man. Peace.Ade: And we're back. I can tell that you and TJ had a lot of fun on that one, and to be frank, I was incredibly energized by his story. It was really motivating to hear because he's out of the old, so to speak. I'm definitely still in "stay low and build" mode, but hearing his story is encouraging, and it's motivating, and it lets me know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Zach: Yeah. I think his story comes down to the power of execution. He made up his mind to do something, and he didn't use any excuse. He researched, he studied, he prepared, and then he went for it, and he didn't take years and years. It's really--frankly, it's been a super short journey for him, and I'm happy for him because I know he's just getting started.Ade: For sure. We'll definitely need to make sure to list all of those resources and contacts in the show notes because, like you said, there are so many of us out here who are interested in a genuine approach to the industry but aren't necessarily sure where to start. We'll have a starting line for you.Zach: Absolutely. Well, with that being said, we're gonna be right back with our Favorite Things. Can't wait to share.Ade: Awesome.Zach: And we're back with our Favorite Things. So folk who know me know that I am a blerd, or a black nerd. Two amazing games dropped this month. One was 2K19. Yes, like many younger black men, I loves my 2K, my NBA 2K. For those who are not in the know, NBA 2K is a basketball simulation game. This isn't even an ad. I really enjoy 2K, especially My Career, where you take a player--you make one, you create one, you take him through the journey of being a rookie to a Hall of Famer. And Spider-Man dropped. Both for PS4, so I'm really--I'm enjoying myself.Ade: 2K, huh? Okay. So what's your style? Are you a shot-creating slasher? A playmaker? What's up?Zach: I'm actually a slashing, shot-creating small forward. I'm 6'10" on there, and so if you want to catch a body, you want to be put on a poster, you find me at the park. My gamertag is RevNunn, R-E-V-N-U-N-N. I'll see you out there.Ade: RevNunn gonna put you on a poster. All right. This week my favorite thing is a book called Weapons of Math Destruction. Yes, I did say math. It's a book that came out in, I believe, 2016, and it just examines the societal impact of algorithms and big data. We tend to think of--kind of following in the conversation we were having about tech spaces, but we tend to think of data and tech and science, the STEM space, as a relatively bias-free zone because it's presented to us that way. However, this book just talks about those spaces can actually--and that work, the creation of algorithms, actually can be used to reinforce pre-existing inequality and systemic inequality. I love it. It's by a mathematician known as Cathy O'Neil, and she talks about, you know, the reinforcement of discrimination using systems that we would otherwise consider or would otherwise hope are unbiased. So it's been a fun read. Okay, maybe not fun. Fun is definitely not the term I'm looking for, but it's been a very illuminating, insightful read, and I encourage everyone to take a look at it. Oh, that reminds me. Before we go, we are actually going to be opening up our Favorite Things to you, our listeners. So if you have a favorite thing, please get at us. DM us through IG or hit us up at our email address, which we'll list later on at the end of this show. You can also contact us through the website or Twitter, and we'll make sure to shout you out.Zach: Dope. Well, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. You know what? Also, we actually bought a bunch of other domains. That's right. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns right here.[Sound Man complies]Zach: That's right. We bought livingcorporate.co., livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org. We are everywhere except livingcorporate.com. So if you type in Living Corporate you will find us, okay? If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it for us on the show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with facilitator, instructional designer, meeting host and leadership consultant David Foster of Capgemini to talk about the importance of social and emotional intelligence.David's LinkedInTRANSCRIPTAde: “EQ is our ability to manage ourselves and our emotions. In the workplace, this means acting and reacting to events appropriately, such as maintaining your composer and ability to perform under pressure. However, as important as EQ is, it is also necessary but not sufficient for success. Confidence in navigating the workplace culture, high SQ, is the major obstacle for women and minorities. Culture is largely shaped by the dominant group, which for most workplaces is straight white men. This is not a conspiracy or a plot. We all tend to befriend people who are similar to us or with whom we have the most common. We take work breaks with our buddy. We grab a quick lunch with our friend. Women do this. Minorities do this. Straight white men do this. For the latter group however, this often results in power begetting power. Women and minorities in particular need to have high SQs. They need to be perceptive, vigilant, and deliberate in how they navigate the workplace culture. Not being automatically part of the workplace power club is a given for women and minorities. We can bemoan that fact, or we can take action. Taking offense or feeling hurt keeps us stuck. Successfully navigating the workplace culture--demonstrating high SQ--is the key to career growth and success.” The excerpt I just read from Smart Is Not Enough: Why Social Intelligence (SQ) may be the key to career success for women and minorities by Phyllis Levinson challenges what being good enough looks like in the working world, and social and emotional intelligences are the secret sauces to climbing the corporate ladder. How do people groups with lesser social capital and access thrive in these highly competitive spaces? This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. So today we're talking about social and emotional intelligence.Zach: Yeah. So I know you gave the definitions in your intro, but when I think of definitions for these terms, I think of it as emotional intelligence being your ability to understand and manage yourself where as social intelligence is your ability to understand and manage the relationships around you. Ade: That's about right. And I think it's interesting because I would argue that by the nature of black and brown folks being the minority, minorities in the workplace have some of the highest emotional intelligence, right? I mean, I know I'm always thinking about how I'm going to come across, how to speak, how to phrase my questions both in email and in person, and, you know, not live up or down to some stereotypes and come across as angry. And I'd say that's pretty common. I think that code-switching speaks to this phenomenon the most. The fact that we change our voices with the hopes of being accepted and making others feel more comfortable with us speaks to a certain level of emotional intelligence, no?Zach: No, I absolutely agree. And look, I don't think we're saying that minorities don't need help in better developing and honing their emotional intelligence, but it is me saying that you don't often see minorities in the corporate workplace with emotional, like, outbursts. In your experience, how many times have you seen someone that was not white just completely lose control at work, Ade?Ade: Never, and I definitely get your point. Your point is well-taken, but to me the social intelligence part is a huge hurdle. So the article you referenced earlier is interesting because I posit that if power resides with the majority group and people of color don't heavily engage with the majority--like you were saying, people tend to associate with people who are most like them--how do we learn how to navigate those spaces?Zach: It kind of--it actually kind of throws the whole idea or the term of social intelligence into question, right? Because it's not particularly an issue of mental capacity or capability as it is access. Like, I don't know how to manage this particular relationship in the workplace, not because I'm inept but because I don't have access to these relationships in the same ways as folks who don't look like me are. I mean, am I--am I tripping? Am I onto something?Ade: I do think you're onto something. It reminds me of our very first episode with Fenorris when he was talking about the white executive giving him the real talk in that plane, which by the way, side note, I know y'all have been rocking with us for a while, but if you haven't listened to our very first episode with Fenorris Pearson you definitely should go give it a listen. Back to reality. Fenorris was saying that it is essentially obvious when his black colleagues were trying to mimic behavior and mimic a culture that isn't necessarily theirs, and it built more distrust than not ironically. You might also remember this conversation about authenticity in our episode with Janet Pope essentially saying that people who find themselves in the minority, particularly folks of color, often put on personas that we believe mirrors that of the majority when in actuality the people around us who we're trying to mirror don't recognize themselves and they recognize that lack of authenticity.Zach: Right, and that's not really our fault. Like I said before, we don't have access because historically we haven't been allowed access. We're just now really engaging in these spaces [inaudible]. It's only been what, like, 50 years since the last civil rights bill was passed? So it's been, like, a pretty short line. The point is because of the way that Corporate America is set up, we have to have skills that extend beyond the X's and O's. It's not just critical for our growth, it's really needed for our corporate survival.Ade: Right. And you know, it would be great if we could at some point, I mean, over the course of this season, be able to speak to someone who is a bit of a subject matter expert on social and emotional intelligence. Maybe someone with outstanding communication, conflict resolution and interpersonal skills, and I would feel really comfortable, even more comfortable, maybe if they had maybe 20 years of experience as an instructional designer, a corporate facilitator and [inaudible]. And just to put some nice little icing on top, if they were actually responsible for the coaching and professional development of executives for an international consulting firm, I might just faint.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest David Foster?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaat?Zach: *imitating air horns* Sound Man, you know what it is. Put 'em right there. Let's go. Ade: That's never gonna fail to make me laugh. All right, so next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, Mr. David Foster. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we said, we have David Foster on the show. David, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?David: Hey. I'm doing great, Zach. Thanks for inviting me. A real pleasure.Zach: Absolutely, man. So look, as you know, today we're talking about the importance of emotional intelligence in the workplace. Can you talk to us about what emotional intelligence is and how it comes into play with how you do your job?David: Yeah. So a couple things, you know? I work as a facilitator in Capgemini's Accelerated Solutions Environment. You know, despite the fact that we're a technology company we're really in the people business, and, you know, what we specialize in in the ASE is helping people getting aligned really quickly, helping them making decisions, and helping them come up with really innovative solutions to really wicked, challenging problems, and that's not something that you can do without having a high degree of emotional intelligence. You know, as a facilitator I'm typically at the front of the room, and for me it's not really about presenting myself as an expert as much as it is shepherding people through our process. So emotional intelligence for me is something that I have to pay real close attention to. You know, when I think about it, there are a couple of pieces to emotional intelligence. You've got the idea of just perceiving emotions, and so for me, you know, when I'm in front of an audience or a client group, it's about trying to understand where they are emotionally. And a lot of times we're dealing with really charged topics, so understanding what position they are on that rollercoaster is really important, you know? And that's the other part of it is, like, understanding emotions. So you can perceive them and you can feel them, but you have to be able to interpret them a little bit, a lot of bit, you know? That helps you decide what questions you need to ask or helps you decide how you might shift the focus of a session or how you might even capitalize on the emotions that you're perceiving. You know, for me and my position, it's about managing that emotion sometimes, and I'm speaking not only about the client and about the audience, but I'm speaking about myself as a facilitator. Look, we're all human. You know that, Zach. Right? Like, we're all human beings, and when you're standing up in front of a group or even if it's one-on-one, the emotion that comes off of someone or someones, you feel that, right? And so sometimes it's about not only managing the emotion that's coming from folks--maybe it's questioning, you know, the origin of it or where it's coming from, but it's also understanding what it's doing to you, you know? Because it can certainly either trigger your emotions--it might put you in a position where you end up feeling some emotions, you know, based on empathy with a group, but managing those emotions is key. And then it's really about using emotions. So if I think about those four things, like perceiving, understanding, managing and then using--and when I say using, it's not--you're not trying to take advantage of folks in terms of using emotion, but you're looking at and perceiving those emotions, understanding them and trying to figure out, "Okay, how best can we tap into this to help us achieve our goals?" So if there's energy and intent to do something, you know, how do we make sure that we put people in the position so that they can do that? Emotional intelligence is essential, you know? And it's not just in my role. I think it's in every role in our corporate environment, you know? Because like I said, we're a people business, and people have emotions, you know? We are emotional, sentient beings, and so if you think that just your IQ is enough, I think you're sadly mistaken. So that's--in a nutshell, I think, you know, the synopsis of how I think about EQ and how I think about emotional intelligence and it impacts me when it comes to how I do my job as a facilitator. Now, I can extend that even further, you know? There are lots of touch points where I'm not only interacting with colleagues or I'm interacting with clients in different ways, you know? And emotional intelligence extends beyond just when you're in front of the room. It has to do with your interpersonal relationships in terms of how you work with others, you know, how you contribute to a team and how you ultimately can add value to an organization, so.Zach: See, that's so intriguing. So have you had any situations--rather, have you had any situations where you've seen business relationships completely be broken by a lack of emotional intelligence? And if so, would you mind sharing a story?David: Yeah. You know what? Broken is, like, the end, but I think there's a continuum. If you're not keen on or at least focused on emotional intelligence, you can fracture relationships, you can damage relationships. So there's a whole lot that you can do outside of just breaking them. I just did a session this weekend that's really interesting. The guy that was one of the main sponsors of our session, the CIO, you know, he's taken the DiSC profile, and I have my own opinions about assessments. I think they're all information, you know? I don't know if that truly defines who you are and how you are as much as it just gives you information to help you decide how you might proceed in terms of your relationships or in terms of your preferences. And this guy, you know, he had taken the DiSC profile, and so he characterizes himself as a driver, you know? "I'm just a high D. I'm a high D." And it's almost like he uses that as his lead into any sort of conversation, you know? Not to mention that he's also a lawyer by trade, you know? And he's got a penchant for, you know, winning arguments no matter the cost, and he has a penchant for arguing and driving people very, very hard no matter the cost. So here we are in this ASE session, and, you know, the way we work is we have large-group stuff and then we get into breakouts, and I always talk to my sponsors about, you know, when you get into these breakouts you want your people to do the work, and you want to almost sit back, and you want to ask more questions than give more answers, and you don't want to stand up and pontificate. Well, he took this opportunity--they were sharing some information about a particular work stream, and he took this opportunity in front of, you know, a small group of folks to run up one side of this person and down the other, basically asking a lot of pointed questions, creating an argument, trying to win an argument about why certain work hadn't been done, right? And what I saw happen was not only did that change the tone and the tenor of the breakout, but it also changed the tone and tenor of their relationship for the rest of the session, where this person who had been on the receiving end of these very pointed and very argumentative sort of interjections, you know, almost shut down, right? And you don't want to do that, and I think about that, specifically in the session seeing that, but I was wondering, "Man, what is it like every day to work with this person if that's what you have to deal with?" And I actually pulled her aside to check on her and said, you know, "Are you doing okay?" And she said, "That's my everyday." And so when you think about that--you know, here you have this leader who is, you know, putting out front the idea that because "I'm a D, because I'm a high driver, I almost don't have to pay attention to how or what I do and how or what I say impacts the folks that I'm saying it to," because he can hold that shield up in front. And like I said, those assessments and those types of things are really only information, and the fact that he took that opportunity to basically confront this person, you know, not really understanding--well, it's not even not that--he understood what we were doing, but not being sensitive enough or being aware enough to know, you know, what those actions could possibly do to that person within our session. You know, that indicated a pretty severe lack of emotional intelligence. Now, whether or not he's able to repair that relationship I think is up to him. You know, Zach, I've got--and we've talked before about leadership, and we've talked before about, you know, how to lead and different styles of leadership, and I think EQ is, like, a really important arrow in the quiver. It's just one thing, you know? And having a high degree of emotional intelligence allows you to not only be self-aware, but it also allows you to be flexible, right? If you're--if you're focused not only on the things that are triggers for you, your own emotions, you know, that's part of it. You have to pay attention to the other emotions, and you almost have to--you have to be flexible, and you have to be able to adapt your approach, and you have to be able to adapt how you communicate based on the emotions of the other folk in the room, you know? Not just yours, but others, and it was obviously--it was a pretty charged conversation. He had some things he wanted to get out, but there's a way of communicating that so that you don't, like you said, break or damage your relationship. And just to extend the story further, you know, I had a confrontation with him. He wanted to--we have this thing in the ASE called proposals where, you know, people put proposals in front of a group of judges to--you know, what does the way forward look like? Take your best shot, right? So we have--we have the judges, and, you know, he wanted to be a judge, and I told him--I said, "I don't know if that's a good idea." I said, "Based on your closeness to the problem, based on your position in the organization, and based on what I observed," you know, based on how his interactions could change the tone and tenor of conversations, I advised him against it. And he didn't push too hard on that, and he said, "Well, how do the judges work?" I said, "Well, they develop criteria," and he said, "I want to be part of that conversation." And I stopped him and I said, you know, "What's your interest?" Right? And he said, "I want to make sure that my opinions are represented," and I proceeded to lay it out for him. I said, "Look, you know, ASE sessions are a chance for you to let the people in the room own the work, and it's a great chance for leaders to watch their people work. You know, you've got some smart folks here, you know? And you almost have to trust that they're gonna come up with the right criteria," et cetera, et cetera, and Zach, we went back and forth.Zach: Really?David: And talk about emotional intelligence. You know, at that point I have to know what my triggers are, right? So I could've gotten into this back-and-forth argument, but I have to remember my role. My role is a facilitator, right? I can't really hold a position. And I told him that. I said, "I'm not gonna hold a position. As a matter of fact, I'm not gonna argue with you." I said, "I've laid out the risks. I've told you what could happen if you involve yourself in this conversation. Ultimately it's up to you to make the choice, and I'm not gonna stand in your way, but you can't come back to me and look at me and say, "That didn't go the way I thought it would," because I cautioned you and I warned you," and I said, "I'm basically done arguing with you because it's obvious that you want to win this argument. So, you know, if you want to be part of this criteria development, have at it." And so we walked away from each other. Relationship wasn't broken. You know, still respected me as a facilitator, and as we're getting back into the main space--'cause we were pulling people together to get them ready to do this assignment--he stops me and he says, "You know, I've changed my mind. I'm not gonna be part of it." I said, "Okay," and so I proceeded to set up the assignment, send people out, and then I found him and I said, "Would you mind telling me what changed your mind?" And he said it was ego. He said, "That conversation between you and I was all about ego," and he said, "I have to be better about managing my emotions, and I have to be better about managing my ego, and sometimes I need to exercise a bit more humility." And he actually went back to the other conversation. He said, "You know, I had a situation where I went at somebody on my team pretty hard, and that wasn't a good thing. And I did the same thing to you, and that wasn't a good thing." So in that small little microcosm you had somebody who was on the one end, you know, really not aware. Like, self--maybe self-aware, you know, using the DiSC assessment as his form of awareness, but not aware of how he was behaving would impact others, right? Really not understanding the emotions that he was generating based on how he was interacting, and he actually--the pendulum actually swung for him, you know? So I don't know when it happened, how it happened. I don't know if I had anything to do with it. You know, maybe it was just the switch flipped, and he was--you know, all of a sudden he had the ability to say, "You know what? I really need to take a step back and look at how my behavior and how I'm managing my emotions and how I'm using my emotions is actually impacting others," you know? And I think that's an important point, and I'm sorry to just prattle on, but, you know, emotional intelligence is a skill. It's something that you can develop. It's something that you can learn, and a lot of times one of the ways we learn is by reflecting, self-reflection, on the situations that we've been presented with, how we've responded, how we've behaved, and how we might change or how we might do things differently.Zach: As you know, our show focuses on people of color in the workplace, like their experiences and perspectives and really having authentic discussions around that idea and around that identity. So I would posit minorities have more pressure to be self-aware by the nature of them just being minorities, by the nature of them being--David: [inaudible].Zach: Right? The smallest group in the space. There's pressure, or there's an expectation that we just need to be more self-aware. So what advice would you give to a people group who's already aware that they are the minority when it comes to growing and developing emotional intelligence?David: Yeah. You know what? We could--how much time do we have? Man, [laughs] because--so I think about that a lot, and maybe some historic context here. This idea that we, because we have been so excluded as people of color from institutions of--I mean, call it whatever. Learning. Institutions of earning. You know, social institutions. We've always been in positions where we've had to extend the olive branch, or if I think about the middle ground, we're always crossing that middle ground, do you know what I mean? Like, we're always expected to reach further and reach farther because these institutions have been established before us, and they weren't designed with us in mind, right? And it's--you know, if we want entry into them, you know, we're the ones that have to make the choices and decisions about how to interact with people. It's almost like we have to present ourselves in ways that make it okay for people to accept us, right? Which is an emotionally charged conversation, and again, we could spend, you know, four, five, eight podcasts. It's an ongoing conversation, right? So I don't disagree with you. I think we have to be, as people of color and as a minority group within, you have to be extremely self-aware, number one about your emotions, because there's a lot that could trigger you, you know? And understanding what your triggers are and understanding intent behind what people say or how they interact with you, being able to manage your emotions. It's a skill you have to have, you know? I would almost say forget about excelling, right? Forget about the idea of being promoted or moving up in an organization. I mean, talk just surviving, right? So think about being on projects. Think about being part of teams. How do you, as someone coming to this already in a position where, you know, people have perceptions of you whether or not we're welcome, whether or not we're able to perform at the same level. How do you manage that and then still do your job? I think emotional intelligence is something that you absolutely have to have. Without that, you know, this business will chew you up and basically spit you out. And it's not just EQ, Zach. You know, it's not just emotional intelligence. It's almost like you have to have some social awareness, you know what I mean? Like, you have to--you have to have a bit of empathy, a lot of empathy. You've got to really understand, you know, the organization, you know what I mean? You really have to know where you're working and who you're working for, and in that self-management, you know, how to be--how to control yourself in what can be emotionally charged situations. It's critical, you know? The only way that you're gonna succeed, you know, is if you have a strong sense of, you know, social EQ or social IQ and emotional intelligence. I read something--you know, this guy Daniel Goleman, which--I mean, his model of emotional intelligence is one that's been around for a really long time, you know? He said, "IQ is only 20% of it." Right? EQ is 80%, and I would--I'd offer that social IQ is key. So I don't know if I answered the question completely. You know, I'll get back to the advice. The advice I would--I would give to folks is, you know, you want to position yourself with mentors who have been successful navigating this organization, you know? They haven't moved up into leadership positions by accident. There's something that they're doing right, and whether it's, you know, that they have a highly evolved sense of self or they have a really highly evolved ability to perceive social and emotional situations, you know, you want to find mentors who can actually coach you on how to navigate some of these situations 'cause they're gonna repeat themselves, you know? And if you get good at handling them, you know, I think that is what positions you to do well in this organization. Now, that doesn't change the fact that there's some messed up stuff that goes on out there, right? I mean, let's just be real. You know, we have to deal, as people as color, as the minority group in an organization, there are some folks who, you know, quite frankly may not care whether we succeed or not, right? And that's just the reality, and part of what we deal with I think is, you know, our ability to understand who's in the room. You know, maybe the position that they're holding in terms of, you know, does this person care about me as person or not? Does it matter, right? And then what do I do with that, right? So that's my emotional intelligence, right? My ability to be reflective, you know? My ability to notice my emotional self within a work situation, you know? My ability to evaluate those situations and really begin to notice patterns, right? And then if you notice the patterns, you might start to see some opportunities for you to do something different.Zach: So you've given advice around what people of color and underrepresented groups in Corporate America can do to really develop or continue to sharpen their emotional intelligence and their social IQ. I'm curious, what advice would you give to the C-Suite regarding emotional intelligence and those who seek to be more ethnically inclusive and more welcoming so that they can actually acquire or procure the talent that they're looking for from these ethnically diverse spaces?David: Yeah. That's a multifaceted conversation, right? I think, you know, leaders that are looking to be more inclusive, first of all you have to have a high degree of EQ, right? Your sense of self needs to be very, very strong. You also have to--and within that sense of self, I think it's understanding your intent. Like, what's my intention? You know, is it checking a box? Do I really believe that involving and having a diverse workforce is gonna be advantageous, not only to the things that I touch but to the broader organization? You know, that sense of self is critical, and I would offer something else. It's not just emotional intelligence, it's not just social intelligence, but there's this thing. I don't know if you've heard of this, but the empathy quotient too. Like, your ability to put yourself in the shoes of others, right? Your ability to really walk a mile in the shoes of somebody else, you know? That whole idea of active listening and understanding the intent with which someone is communicating to you, you know? What's the message behind the words? I think--you know, I'm not part of the C-Suite, you know? And I think anything that I'm offering is really just what I've observed in terms of what's really been successful for people looking to be more inclusive. You know, you've got to be awesome at problem solving, and I think the combination of those three things--you know, the social intelligence, the emotional intelligence, your empathy quotient--helps you solve problems, you know? You've got to provide and be a supportive communicator. I think you have to be able to be flexible and be able to communicate with different types of folk. That's just the bottom line. You've got to be confident, you know, truly in empowering people, you know? A to B is always gonna be A to B, but the road may look completely different than you thought, and when you're involving diverse populations in a workforce, you know, you have to believe that the road to get from A to B may be something different just based on the types of people that you get involved, you know? And, I mean, I think in terms of attracting folks to work in a situation, you know, where we work, in this corporate environment, you know, you have to do your best to provide an opportunity and to provide and create an environment where people can contribute and add value, and the only way that you can do that I think is if you have a high degree of not only how you lead, right, but the environment that you want to create, and you have to model that behavior, right? You've got to make sure that no matter what it is, whether it's problem solving, whether it's managing conflict, whether it's how you empower others, whether it's how you communicate, whether it's how you motivate people, you know, I think as a leader, modeling that kind of behavior, that inclusive behavior, and modeling the fact that you need to have a high degree of emotional intelligence, a high degree of social intelligence, a high empathy quotient, you know, that's what makes people want to work with you, right? You know this, Zach. People don't leave jobs. They leave people, right? So the work that you can do on yourself, you know, to become more self-aware, it's gonna be reflected in your leadership style, right? The work that you do to become and increase your emotional intelligence, your empathy quotient, your social IQ, it's gonna be reflected in your leadership style, and people are gonna want to work with you, you know? They're gonna want to be part of an organization, you know, especially if you're modeling that behavior.Zach: Man. David, this has been a great conversation, man. Before we wrap up, do you have any parting words and/or any shout outs?David: Wow, shout outs? You know what? Here's the thing. I want to give a big shout out to the A3 posse at Capgemini. Doing incredible work, and a shout out and an apology, right, that I am not more involved. It's one of my goals this year to make myself, as part of the senior leadership of the organization, a bit more present, but I notice and I pay attention, and it's a potent group. Anybody out there who's listening who's not part of A3, you definitely want to get involved because they are doing great things to not only represent within this broader organization but it's a great resource, and it's just nice to be able to have conversations at times with people who speak the same language, who are going through the same things, you know, as we are as people of color trying to navigate, you know, this corporate environment. And I also want to thank you, Zach. I think Living Corporate is a step in the right direction, you know? The more that we can start talking about these things, the more that we can start to talk about the stuff that matters to us as people of color, especially in this day and age, without getting too political. You know, we recognize the times that we live in, and so it's extremely important that we hunker down and that we empower ourselves, right? With the tools that we need, with the kind of support that we need. You know, surround ourselves with the mentors that we need so that we can succeed, you know? And so that we can thrive, and ultimately so that we can definitely survive. So thank you, Zach. I can't--you're doing great work, brother. I want you to keep it up.Zach: Man, I appreciate it, David. And absolutely, man. Shout out for those who are listening. A Cubed is an African-American employee resource group at Capgemini, a great resource for black folks to come together and really, to David's point, really a strong point of relation and community within the community. So definitely shout out to A3, shout out to A Cubed. Shout out to Janet Pope, who was on the show before. I know that she leads that group. And David, man, thank you again for the love, man. We want to make sure to have you back, and we appreciate it, dude. We'll talk to you soon.David: All right. Zach, thank you very much.Zach: All right, man. Peace.David: Peace.Ade: And we're back. Zach, that was a great interview. I really appreciated his candid tone and vulnerability. I also really appreciated his stories around facilitating and managing personalities as well. I'm just out here trying to manage myself [inaudible].Zach: Right. In my experience in working with David, it's amazing to even just see it in action. I appreciated his points around being reflective and being able to interpret emotions and move accordingly.Ade: Well, he talked about emotional and social intelligence being what helps you solve problems. That really resonated with me because in my own head I get really, really nervous about dealing with people or being at work and having the right answer, and I've been noticing that when I take a breath and think through how I feel as well as those around me, beyond the X's and O's, the zeroes and ones, I'm able to arrive at a solution that actually works. To me, that's the simplest hook for the why behind why emotional and social intelligence might be a focus. They help you solve problems, and who doesn't want to be good at solving problems? With that being said, unless you have any further thoughts, let's get into our Favorite Things. How do you feel?Zach: No, that's awesome. Let's do it. So my favorite thing right now has to be DeRay Mckesson's book The Other Side of Freedom. I was really excited when he announced the fact that he was--he was almost finished with it, and so I preordered it, and I've been waiting, and it dropped on my birthday, September 4th. So I'm, like--I'm just excited to read it. I haven't really gotten fully into it yet, but I finished the intro, and I'm loving what I'm reading so far, and I can tell already that it's a favorite.Ade: So I'm confused. You said September 4th. Do you mean Beyonce's birthday? [Sound Man throws in car slamming on its brakes effect]Ade: Beyonce? Her birthday?Zach: I mean my birthday, and listen, I've been on this earth long enough now to realize that, yes, it's B Day. I get it, but, you know, it's my birthday too, okay? Beyonce does not own the day.[car slams on its brakes again]Ade: She does, because as you said, it's B Day, not Z Day. Which, you know, cool. You can have, like, September 5th or something, but September 4th is B Day. So, like, I guess you can rent September 4th. It's fine. It's fine. We'll be nice.Zach: [laughs] Okay. We might have to subtitle this show (B?) Happy Z Day. That would be kind of funny. We might do that.[again]Ade: Why not B Day?Zach: [sighs] Why don't we go ahead and go to your favorite things? How about that?Ade: All right. All right, okay. I'm gonna stop frustrating you. All right, so my current favorite thing is this book called The Storied Life of A.J. Fikry. Now, it is purely a work of fiction. It is comedy and it is drama and it is a tragedy, and if you're the sort of person who likes an emotional rollercoaster with your literary works I certainly recommend that book. My second favorite thing, because I can never choose just one, is this, like, nifty invention called a water bottle. I've been training for a marathon again, and I don't know how much you know about training for marathons, but they suck. The training sucks, the marathon sucks. I don't know why I'm doing this. Somebody help me. But water bottles have been saving my life so far, so there's that upside. Yay.Zach: [laughs] Okay. Well, yeah, definitely shout out to the book, and shout out to water bottles, you know? My wife, she just recently toured Route 66.Ade: Aye!Zach: Yeah, and one thing I remember I told her--I was like, "Listen, make sure you have water," and she said, "I will in my water bottle." So yes, shout out to water and shout out to Favorite Things, and as a reminder, to see all of our favorite things, go to our website, living-corporate.com, and click Faves. You'll see all of our favorite things for the season right there. Make sure you go check it out.Ade: Yep. And that's our show. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Also, don't forget to check out our Patreon at LivingCorporate as well. We're Living Corporate everywhere! That does it for us on this show. My name is Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.