Podcast appearances and mentions of kyle well

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Welcome Passive Traders to another special edition of the Option Genius Podcast. Today I have something a little bit different for you. I was interviewed on another show called "2 Bulls in A China Shop" by a company called Financial Ineptitude. That's actually their name,Financial Ineptitud. Basically, it's two guys. You know, there are really cool guys named Kyle and Dan, and they've been talking about trading for a little bit. They've been trying to learn how to trade and so they made this podcast to basically help them get their thoughts out, and to record all of their lessons. Their website is really cool. Their podcast is two bulls in a china shop and I'm going to include the interview that they had here as an episode because I thought it was really good. It was a lot of fun. And hopefully you guys will get something out of it and learn from it as well. So again, that's "2 Bulls in A China Shop" by Kyle and Dan. Enjoy the episode. We're so glad you've joined us today, folks, today is a very special day, we've got a fantastic guest with us. We're gonna be joined here by Allen Sama, Head Trader and owner of Option Genius. He is an Amazon bestseller author of the book Passive Trading: How to Generate Consistent Monthly Income from the Stock Market in Just Minutes a Day. And we're going to let you know more about that. But first, Allen, how are you doing today? Allen: I'm doing very well. Thank you very much. Kyle: Thanks for coming on. I know we had to work a little bit to get this. This recordin going. Allen: Yeah, better make it good. Allen: I'll do my best. Kyle: The more you work for it the sweeter to be right? Yeah, Dan: Yeah. No pain, no gain, Allen: The more you value it, right. Dan: Oh, right. So so tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming the Option Genius.  Allen: So I was born as a trust fund baby and I started with $20 million. Kyle: End of story. Allen: Exactly, then I made a course. And then I made a course and I started selling it. Dan: Make more money selling. Allen: Yeah. So I have a similar story to you guys. You know, I got laid off from basically the only job I ever had. And it was really about, hey, do I go back to finding another job than job market? Or do I try my hand at trading, which I had been starting to learn while I was working because I was working remotely. So it was a great job learned a lot. But it just came to an end. The business went under in the financial crisis. And so, you know, we were actually teaching mortgage brokers how to be mortgage brokers, mortgage brokers, they owe it away. So it's like they didn't need me anymore. And so I said, Alright, cool. Let me you know, try my hand at trading. And I took some of my wife's money, and I lost most of it roughly, for like 40- 43,000. Plus, very quickly. Dan: Oh you're kidding. Allen: And, you know, like you guys said, you know, you learn very quickly, what doesn't work and most of it doesn't work. Yeah, at least for me. Dan: I get to strangled to work one day. Allen: Yeah. And so really, the, the best thing for me was that, you know, she had, she had faith in me, and she, she's like, you know, you need to make this work. And so I went back, and that kind of really put a fire under my ass. And then I looked at all my records, because I keep paper records of all my trades, write down everything. And so I found that, you know, I was doing day trading, and I was doing this and I was doing that buying and selling and value and I was trying everything, you know, there was one time where I was long, the inverse ETFs you know, SDS and SSO. So SSO is the two 2X S&P Going up, and SDS is 2X going down. So I was long on both of them. I was like, I can't lose. Right? Yeah, it's like the only trade that I can't lose on but guess what I did, I ended up losing money on that trade. Dan: You're telling my story, Allen. You're telling my story. Kyle: This all sounds so familiar. But there is a light at the end of the tunnel that it sounds like you.. Allen: Because the only thing that worked for me was selling options. And I had done at least one trade where, you know, I put it on, didn't really know what I was doing. But I followed it. And I put it on and I forgot about it. And then it it was in my paper records, but it wasn't in my account. And I'm like, where to go. My broker scamming me, you know, that should be here, you know, I put the trade on, where's my trick, and I kept researching, and then I realized that that trade had expired, worthless, and it just had gone away. So it doesn't show up on the screen anymore. And there's no exit record. And so I was like, Well, this is cool. You know, this is something that I didn't pay any attention to. And I made, you know, a good decent amount on it. And I didn't like it was easy. So I'm like, What is this thing? So I learned more and I dug deep into it. And we went into covered calls and naked puts and spreads and iron condors and, and all these different ones. And eventually I found that, um, you know, these type of trades are a lot more forgiving. So if you're not the most savvy, technical analysis like me, and if you're always buying at the wrong time and selling at the wrong time, getting all emotional like me, then this really was something that was much easier to do and, you know, you probably hear it If you talk about it, but it's like you put the odds in your favor. So it's a little bit, I think it's more conservative. But it's a lot more passive in the sense where I don't have to be in front of the screen all the time, I'll put a trade on, and then just check it and make sure it's okay. And that Theta decay just works in my favor. So the time decay, meaning the options go down in value, you know, every day as they should. And then eventually they expire. And when they expire, then the trade is over. Kyle: So what kind of time frame are usually looking at when you're selling your contracts? Allen: Well, I'm in different strategies now. But usually, I'm going around 45 days to about 25 days. Kyle: You basically just rolling monthly, the monthly. Allen: Yep. So I'll stay in two months. And then if I get out, then I'll be like, okay, good down. Let me look at next month, sometimes I get out early, and I'll take, you know, take a week or two off, I'm not doing anything. And then, but most of the time, yeah, it's you know, you're getting out of one and then you're getting into the next one. Kyle: Are you just doing these cover calls? Are you doing spreads? Or what are you doing to cap your, your, your losses, because we selling options? Contracts can be really dangerous.. Allen: Mm hmm. So we do a little bit of all of them. You know, I've been doing it now for 15 years. So I started with the iron condor, because that that, Oh, my God, this is awesome. You know, you can make money on both sides, and the stock doesn't move too much. And it's a trade that can't lose. Obviously, I found out that yeah, you can lose. But I mean, it's probably the most complicated trade you can start with. And that's the one I did and then I got, you know, I got good at it. And then I did look at covered calls, we did that for a while still do them now in my. So let me break it down, in my retirement accounts, I do covered calls, naked puts, and some spreads. And the spreads are really there to just goose the returns. Because in those I'm looking for about 10% a month, the covered calls naked puts, I'm looking for one to 3% in the retirement accounts. And then in my trading account, I do spreads iron condors. And then I also do a little bit of futures options. So those are a bit more, they got a lot more oomph to them, because there's more leverage involved. And so they're faster. They're very, they're much faster trade. So I'm in and out, usually around two weeks, about 14 trading days. Kyle: Before we get too deep into here, maybe we should kind of talk, can you explain, let's start with an iron condor. And maybe just real quick recap of what a spread is. Allen: Sure. So a spread and the way I trade them is I want to be selling the spread. And so it is something that where you take an option that is far out of the money, you sell that one, and then you buy another one a little bit further out of the money to hedge yourself. So it's a risk defined trade, meaning you know, exactly "Okay, I'm gonna put in, you know, $500 into this trade, or 1000, or 5000", or whatever you put, that's the most you can lose. And then you get a credit for doing it, meaning you get paid when you put the trade on. That credit is the most you can make. So now on the spreads that I do. So for example, let's say we have a stock that just going up and up and up and up. Right now, I like to play the trend, I like to play momentum. And so if it's going up and up and up, I'm going to sell calls. So I'll sell a call spread, I'll get paid for that. As long as the stock doesn't go below my calls, my trade makes money. And on those types of trades, I'm looking for about 10%, like I said, on a monthly basis. My iron condor would be doing that trade with puts and calls on the same stock at the same time. So you want, in that situation, you kind of want something that's going sideways, you want a stock or an index or something that's, you know, it's not moving too much. It's kind of lazy moving sideways, and so you sell some puts below it, and some calls above it. And so that way, you get paid for both you get paid for the calls, and you get paid for the puts. But you don't have to, you're not risking both sides, because you can only lose on one side. You know, so you have the same amount of risk as if you just did a one sided spread, but you get double the credit so you make twice as much money. Kyle: Right. Oh, I was found that the more complicated things get the worse I do at them. We'll have some links in the episode description explaining those a little bit better to anybody.  Dan: Yeah, I'll need to follow those. Yeah. Kyle: So you're looking to generate about 10%. 10% A month or return on your investment then? Allen: Yep, that's it. Yep, that's it go. I mean, you don't always get there, right? You're going to have months where you make less, there's going to be months when you lose money. So if I aim for 10, you know, I can think hey, you know, if I get five for the month, I'm happy. You know, that's 60% a year. That's that's pretty good. Yeah. So I cannot complain. There have been there have been years when I've done over 100% And then there'll be two years when I've lost money. So, but overall for the past 15 years. It's been working really, really well for me, so you know. Kyle: Yeah, it sounds like you're Your path kind of took the same path that mine actually took, like, that was what led me to quit my job is thinking like, I could sell contracts because you know, 80% of them or whatever, expire worthless, rather be on the side that has the math with it. And I'll just, I'll just basically trade the wheel and sell puts, you know, until I get the stock and then calls against it until they get taken away. Success has been mixed so far, but still not working. So. Oh, really? Well, we could talk about that. Well, it sounds like I need to read your book is what it really sounds like. Allen: Yeah, I mean, you know, right now, we're in a bull market. And so the puts that we've been doing the selling the puts, I mean, it's been, it's been working phenomenally, um, covered calls are doing well, as well, because we go pretty far out of the money. So like, you know, it's not always 80%, sometimes I'll go 85, 90 95%, depending on what I want to do. So in my retirement accounts, I don't want to lose my stock. And so I'll sell pretty far out of the money. So I'm not making as much on those. But I don't want to lose my stock. And I'm just looking for a little bit, you know, I'm looking for, you know, 1%, one and a half percent, maybe a month, and I'm happy with that. And so the naked eye, you know, it's also stock selection. And I think that's one of the issues that a lot of people get mistaken. People say that, "Oh, when you're selling options, you should be looking at the ones that are the most volatile names, because they have the most premium, and you get paid the most". To me, I think that's like a suicide mission. And, and I just want to be the, I just want to save ones that are boring, that are you know, everybody ignores them. You know, I like the small, the large, very large companies, they pay dividends, they don't move very much. Those are the ones I just want to cash flow, you know, I just want to be selling naked puts on them, they're not gonna drop 10%. If they do, it's like, it's like the, oh, my God, this thing dropped 10%. You know, that's good news. So I want to sell those, and I want to keep them and collect the dividends and then just get my cost basis down as far as I can get. Dan: Do you have a favorite company then that you find yourself going back to more than others? Allen: I like stuff like McDonald's, Walmart, Starbucks, you know, big names. Everybody's known them there around the world, they have dividends so you know, that they're if they're paying the dividend, they're still profitable. They're making money. You know, Apple is kind of joining that list, although Apple is still a little bit more volatile than the others. But yeah, stuff like that, you know, basic big name, dao components, most of them, one of them that I really liked, that hasn't has been doing really well over the past few years is Intuitive Surgical. It's is ISRG so it doesn't pay dividends. And it's not good. It doesn't have a lot of option volume, but for credit for covered calls, and naked puts it's good enough. And that stock has been doing really, really well for me for the last few years. So that's a particular name. Kyle: So yeah, some of these are pretty expensive, though. I mean, yeah, you gotta be real careful, you don't get stuck with a couple 100 shares, if you don't have the account to cover that. Allen: Yeah. So in that case, you know, what we can also do is you can always roll them. So if I get into a position where I'm sold a naked put and it goes into the money like I've done this with right now, my kid loves Roblox. I don't know if you have kids, but my kids are always on that game. And I was when it came out. I was like, Oh, this is cool, you know. So I sold some naked puts on it. And now they're in the money, and they've been in the money for like three months. So what I do is I just roll them to the next month. So about maybe a week or so before expiration, I will buy back the put the naked put and then sell it again for the next month, collect a little bit more premium, and then the trade just continues. Kyle: Hmm, that's interesting. Yeah. Wow, I didn't even think about doing that. That's awesome. Okay, so roll it over. I'm making notes for myself.  Allen: Now, these are on stocks that you actually think are eventually going to go back up, you know, if it's still going down, down, down, then you're like, No, you need to bail out and be like, yeah. But if it's a decent company with decent, you know, fundamentals, and you know, they're making money and all that stuff, then yeah, Kyle: I've always gravitated towards the cheaper stocks when trying to sell contracts, just because at least if I'm selling, and they could put on something that's only valued at like, $15, then I know I can't lose more than $15 a share. Allen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, like, my thinking is that I want to be in a company that I know is not going to zero, so I don't have to worry about it. Kyle: I mean, Ford for a while is trading around 15. It's at 18. Now, but yeah, I know for some solid companies that are in that range, right? There's a lot of other ones that aren't though. Allen: Like if it was a $200 stock, and now it's at 15 There's another issue going on there. Dan: Hertz is coming back. Good PR story. Damn it. Kyle: I'm gonna go back to losing $40,000 of your wife's money. So what were you doing that got you like we tried to day trade options were you.. Allen: I was doing a little bit everything I was day trading stocks, I was buying options. I was buying and selling like I was doing some value investing for a little bit. I'll be watching Kramer every night and looking at what's Kramer telling me to do. Okay, I'm gonna do this and that I would watch fast money every day and look for any anything that sold this is going up okay, hey, copper is going up. Let me buy some you know, SPX. Let me buy some of this. So trying to play the trend is trying to play all that stuff. I looked at futures, you know, trading futures a little bit, but that's,  that takes a lot of money. Kyle: There's no it actually takes less than you think. Really? $4,000 you can fund and account. Allen: Yeah, but then I mean, like you got Japanese. Japanese yen that takes that's a lot of money for a contracts. Dan: Okay, Yen is in micros now. Allen: Yeah, at that time, they didn't. They didn't I don't think they had those. Kyle: Probably. Yeah, I think minis were kind of new thing. Yeah. Allen: But yes, I was trying a little bit everything, whatever I could, whatever book I could find whatever video I could find. Just trying a little bit everything in nothing, nothing really worked for me. Kyle: So what was it that actually got you out of that? That, I guess Funk You can call it. Allen: So until for several months, my wife did not know that I was losing all the money. You know, she'd come home. And she actually, I mean bless her heart, she took a second job. So she's working two jobs while I'm at home trading. And, and we didn't have any kids at the time. So that was good. But you know, she she'd come home tired, and she wouldn't really want to talk about it. Because sometimes I'd be happy sometimes I'd be sad. She really couldn't tell what was going on. And then one day, she checked the mail and the account statement had come in the mail. And she's like, where's all the money?    Dan: Oh, no.    Allen: And I was like, Yeah, we need to talk about that. And then I feel, you know, I could tell that, you know, the marriage was on the ropes because we were newly married, and she had saved up for years working to save up this money. And so it was really a matter of, you know, I promise you that I will give me three months. That's what it boiled down to. So give me three months, I promise you, I will at least get back to breakeven or like, you know, not lose money every month, and then I'll start making it back. And if I don't, I'll get a job. So that was it. That was my ultimatum, I had three months to turn it around, or go back to, you know, the 9 to 5 grind.   Kyle: So I gotta ask you, one of the things that took us a while to learn was basically the number one job of being a trader is risk management. So what point during that journey did that finally kick it in your head? Risk is the most important thing. So you don't end up blowing up an account like that. Allen: It didn't really hit me for a long time, even after I started getting a little bit consistent. Really? Yeah. Kyle: That's interesting. Allen: You know, I kept going gung ho blazes forward until maybe like a year, year and a half. of really, you know, trading full time. The one thing the benefits of the selling options is that they're not that many losses, you know, you don't lose on too many trades, because it's set up to to help you win. And so that kind of helped me, but I would, I would have these huge losses, like if I'm making 10% on a trade, the idea was not to lose more than 25 to 30%. But I would be losing, you know, 40% 50% 60%. And I just couldn't get out of that hole. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you the secret. What turned it around. It was my wife, yeah. So she's like, cuz I was talking to her at this point. I'm like, Hey, this is working. This is not working. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. She goes, You know, it seems like you have everything you need. You're just not sticking to your own trading plan. Right? Yeah. Cuz I get emotional. You know, I think he's gonna turn around. I think he's gonna do this. But then, you know, CNBC said this, and then fox said this, and so she's like, oh, let's do this. She goes, I'm gonna come and check on you every day at a certain time and we're gonna go through each trade. And I'm gonna ask you questions, and then you have to answer. I'm like, Okay, let's do it. So she would come up, you know, she'd come upstairs to the office. And she'd be like, Alright, show me your trade. Alright, what's the goal? How much are you trying to make? Alright, where's it now? What's the trading plan? What happens if it goes down? You know, when are you going to adjust it? Or when are you going to get out? And then if I haven't gotten out yet, or if I haven't adjusted, then I have to answer why. Why? Yeah. And if I don't have a good answer, get out now. Allen: That's, that's really awesome, actually. So you just delegated your risk manager hat to your wife. Allen: Pretty much. And then, you know, there were times where I didn't want to have her breathing down my neck anymore. And so that's when I got better at it myself. And then, you know, after a while, she was like, Hey, I think you got it. You don't need me anymore.   Kyle: I know you say that you think that you're blessed to be to be able to do a dream job of earning money in the stock market and working in your PJs, but I think you I think you hit the lottery twice. It sounds like you really married a great woman. Allen: Oh, yes, I did. I did. And she hates me. He's telling this story about how I lost her money, she hates. She's like, you sound like such an idiot like a dumbass.  Allen: Yep. I think we all go through it. We all do it. Dan: Nobody just started out and just like, oh, every trade I've made. It's been great. What's your problem? Kyle: No, most people will blow up an account too. And that's why the things that we've been learning is, Dan and I are both trying to learn futures. So we're going through some courses with the trade pro Academy. I think we're I think Dan just flipped the live today, in week four now. But one of the main things with that is like, Okay, we fund the minimum amount we need in that account in case something goes wrong. You know, the most we can lose is whatever's in that account. Yeah, we're not going to fund it with you know, the life savings and then give ourselves you know a hundred thousand dollars  a full wrap with,   Allen: Yeah but the cool thing is, you know, you guys have each other to bounce ideas off to talk to, you know, a lot of people try to do it on their own. And they're just like, I did you know, I was lonely. I was doing, I couldn't figure out what was wrong. It didn't have anybody to talk to. Because I mean, you tried to talk to your neighbor, or your friends or your family like, oh, yeah, hey, I sold a, you know, a call spread. And they're like, "What? What the hell are you talking about?" I couldn't talk to anybody, so it's awesome that you guys have somebody. Kyle: Well, actually, I think the podcast for us is actually but what's taking the role of the wife explaining the moves? I mean, at the end of every episode, we do a good, bad and ugly segment where we talk about something that worked something that didn't work and something that was really bad. Allen: Yeah that's accountability. Right there. You got to tell the world. Kyle: So now, yeah, when you're getting ready to do something stupid, you're like, how do I really want to talk about this on Saturday? Okay, I'm looking at their your, your, your sheet here that you said this. And one of the things that I see on here that's really interesting is that you made a small investment for your four year old. Yep. What's the deal with that? Allen: Alright, so the biggest thing that I've been learning by talking to people and everything is that people are not people don't have enough saved for retirement. You know, that's like the one biggest thing and people come to us, and they're like, Hey, I, you know, I'm in my 50s, I just got laid off, you know, what am I gonna do? I don't know what to do. I got to figure out how to trade. I'm like, well, you're under a lot of pressure. I don't know if this is the right time, right. And so I didn't want my kids stuff to go through that. So currently, my wife has another business. Mm hmm. And so what we did was, we have three kids, we got a 10 year old nine year old and now she's five. So the little one is five. At that time, she was four, when we started this actually know when she was born is when we started this. So we took the kids, and we found a way for them to earn some money. And basically, we did it as we were their models. So they model and we take pictures of them for advertising, for our website, the brochures for my wife's business. And so the kids get paid for it. And that money then goes into their Roth IRA. Okay, so that they have no, there's no taxes, there's no income taxes on that money that they that they make, right? Because they're minors, and there's a certain limit, so I'm not an accountant. So don't, you know, none of us are, I don't think but when we started, you know, the rule was you can make up to 12,000 As a child, and it would not be taxed. And then you know, who knows what if that's going to change anytime soon, but we could pay them take that money, put 6000 into the Roth IRA. Now, you know, She's five years old. So we've been doing that for a few years. And currently, she has about $50,000 in her account. Now, you, you can look at, you know, you can do the math on any investment calculator. She's five years old, she's gonna retire in 60 years. So you take that 50,000 invested in let's say, an index fund, and you make 8% a year. Right? Compounded for 60 years. How much is she going to have at the end of that? 60 years? It's going to be well over $2 million. Right? That's if I don't put any more money into it. Yep. If she never touches it, she doesn't put anything else. You know, she's gonna have a $2 million retirements on when she when she's done. And, and that's without me doing any of my options stuff or, you know, doing anything.  Dan: There I say better than a college account fund. Allen: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I mean, part of it is, you know, the money, she's gonna when she takes it out, she, when she retires, she won't have to pay any taxes on it. So we made the money, we didn't pay any taxes on it, she's gonna grow the money and not have to pay any taxes on and then she takes it out and there's so there's like no tax at all. It's like the only loophole I've seen like this.   Kyle: We might need to bleep some of that out just in case. That's interesting. We saw a story not too long ago about a senator proposing a bill to like, and I don't think there's any traction on the actual bill. But what was interesting was the math behind it. He said that I think it was about $2,200 for every newborn, put into an account for him, like that will basically make them retire as millionaires.  Allen: Yeah. I mean, if you start early enough, and you put it away, and you don't touch it, it just compounds and it works. And hopefully, it'll be at the same, you know, average at least 7 - 8% a year that the stock markets been doing historically. So you know, of course, things change in the future. We don't know. But I'm trying to just set these kids up in a way that can help them succeed, you know, and if you if you think about it, like if she doesn't have to worry about saving for retirement, then whatever she makes, she could like, enjoy it. She could give back to our community. She can you know, spend it do it everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Dan: Take care of you hopefully.. Kyle: That's smart. Allen: Yeah, that's the plan. Yes, that's my retirement. Kyle: Tell us a little bit about your company Option Genius. What do you guys do over there? Allen: So it started off as so when you sell options, you know, it's kind of boring. It's very, like I said, it's passive. It takes just a few minutes to put on a few trades, and then just watch him watch and watch. And so when I started doing it, I got bored. And so I would go and I would bother my wife. Hey, what you doing? What do you do? Oh, you're cooking that again? Oh, no. She's like, can you just get out of my hair? And I'm like, Well, no, cuz I don't have anything else to do. She goes, Why don't you like, teach other people how to do what you're doing? Oh, that's a good idea. So I started a website. And the idea was, you know, I'm gonna have one website, and I'll just do my trades, and I'll share them with other people. It'll be a membership site, they'll pay me for it. If they want to do the trades, great. If they want to learn, that's great, whatever. And, you know, hands off kind of thing that started doing really well it started growing and people start asking questions. How do you do this? How do you do? What about this strategy? What about this strategy, and it just grew from one website to many of them three. Now we have three different memberships, we got like three different courses and coaching programs, we got a couple of books out there to spread the word. And eventually, I got to the point where you know what, the emails that we would get from people would be so heartbreaking, that it's like, there's this better way that I think are found, and people don't know about it. Let me, let me expose let me share the message. And so that's really behind what Option Genius is. I mean, you know, not to brag, but you know, I'm trading a seven figure account. And so if I can make, you know, two or 3% on that in a month, I'm living a really, really nice lifestyle. You know, I don't, I don't have a private plane, I don't have a Lambo. I don't need any of that stuff. So we're really doing well. And so this is like, if it works great. If we can help other people great. If not, I can walk away. I don't need it. But we've we've been doing it for a while. And we've really, it's heart warming. When somebody comes in, oh, man, I just did my first trade. And I made 10% Oh, man. And we have we have our own podcast. And I've started to interview our students. And so they come on board. And they're like, you know, I had a small account, but we got one guy. He, we gave him a scholarship. Like every year, we have a scholarship to one of our courses. So he actually won the scholarship. And he's like, you know, I have a small account. It's like $4,000. And he's a teacher. And he does now what you were talking about the wheel. So he learned that from us, and he's doing it. And he's like, hey, you know, I made 30% this year from my wheel. So that goes awesome. Yeah. There's other guys. They're making, like 7, 8% 10%. We had one guy who came in, he lost his job. And then he's like, Hey, I'm in your program. What do I do? I'm like, do the follow up program. You paid for it. He started doing it, you know? And seven months later, he's like, Yeah, dude, I'm making 10 grand a month. I'm like, That's freaking awesome. And he goes, You know what he told me? He goes, I'm going back to work. I'm like, what? He goes, because it doesn't take any time. And I want to go back to work. Whatever floats your boat. Kyle: Learn a different skill. I mean, I guess that's what you want to do. I guess. It's funny though. The more people that we talk to, especially the ones that are really successful, that seems like they all want to give back somehow to the community. Allen: Mm hmm. Kyle: That seems to be a common theme and I don't really think see that in a lot of other industries. Allen: No. I mean, there's only so much money you can make, and it doesn't really make you that much happier anymore. But when you can like to have, you know, the Maslow's hierarchy with a triangle going up to be like self actualized you gotta have significance you got to give back. Mm, Dan: Yeah that's awesome. Oh, boy. Awesome. Okay. Allen: But I mean, you guys are doing that, you know, the podcast, and you guys are helping  Dan: We hope Kyle: Mostly they're learning what not to do. Allen: There's value in that as well. Kyle: Yeah, I think that was our tagline once "Let us lose the money for you". Dan: Oh, yeah, yeah, I've proven myself capable of that time and time again. Mm Kyle: hmm. All right, what else we got on here? And Dan got any other questions here? Dan: Yeah, so when you're starting out some people I mean, I know you mentioned you get somebody started as low as four grand Do you do you give people like a target, like try and get this much money together to start the ball rolling, or you just.. Allen: Um, you know, we say, we say, if you're going to do what we call passive trading, they can start with anything. But if you're going to go into something like just spreads or like futures options, and we say, start with about 10,000. But even then, you want to start off with paper trading, especially if you've never traded options before, because you need to, you need to know what buttons to push and you know, you don't want to hit the wrong button. Instead of the sale, you hit the buy. And it goes backwards. And you got to know what you're doing on the platform, the software, the broker software, before you start putting real money at risk. Dan: Yeah. Kyle: Is there a specific broker that you prefer? Allen: I have most of my money at Thinkorswim and tasty, but it doesn't really matter. Kyle: We've been getting more into Thinkorswim too. Yeah like their their bracket order than other options bracket. It took us a year to figure out the Active Trader even know it existed. But man that made a huge difference. Huge. Oh, you can just drag your stops. Dan: But that's more day trading options. Well, yeah. Well, we talked a little bit real quick, do you ever use the the ThinkOrSwim probabilities when you're looking at selling your options? Allen: Um, so we have a couple of different ways. I use the the desktop Thinkorswim Yeah. And so like, uh, you know, if you're looking at an option, right, you look at the option chain, and it tells you what the delta is, you can pretty quickly find out what is the probability of that option. So if it's delta 20, that means okay, this still this option has an 80% chance of probability of expiring worthless. If it's delta 10. It's got a 90% probability of expiring worthless. So that's kind of like rule of thumb, really quick table math, you know, where you could be like, Okay, I want to do this, or I'll look at the Analyze tab. You know, if it's a more complicated trade, then I'll look at the Analyze tab, and I'll use the numbers that they give me there. Dan: Okay. Okay. I remember that for a little bit with straddles and strangles. But I didn't have much success. Kyle: I think I heard that before with the Delta, but I never I pay attention to it more, because that's tell you how much the underlying will move, right? Like for every dollar that the  underlying moves, then you should see a 30 cent change if it's a 30 Delta, or 20 cent if it's 20. Allen: Yep. But I mean, I don't know how accurate that is, because it always changes all the time. So.. Kyle: Yes, that's true. Allen: It's like I thought it was gonna move 30 cents. Well, your Vega did this and the gamma did that. So. Okay, great. Thanks. Kyle: Plus, now the delta is different. Yeah. We started talking a little bit about crypto. Dan, should we move into move into that? Dan: I would love to talk about it, especially coming from somebody who educated their way into Options success. Do you have anything going with crypto? Allen: So I have been taking advantage of a couple times. We could talk about that. So I'm learning about currently a friend of mine introduced me to I guess they're called alt coins. You know, so I do have some of the big ones, you know, the Bitcoin, the Etherium whatnot. And those I've just holding on to so and then I just started because I have a lot of it. I have it at Coinbase. And so I've put up my Etherium for it was called staking or stocking. Kyle: Staking Allen: Oh, yes. Staking. Yeah, so they hold it on, they hold it for you and they pay you four and a half percent a year. So I'm like, Okay, I'm not gonna sell anyway, I might as well make some most of it. And I think, you know, it's been going up and up. So hopefully by the time I actually want to take it out, it's appreciated. And I will It'll made that four and a half percent, which is pretty good. And so I'm doing that. And then I'm starting to get into these alt coins and trying to figure out which ones are actually going to make it big. And which ones are scams and about, I guess 99% of them are scams. And like so my friends been showing me like, hey, you know, you can tell how much money was used to create this coin, and then are they allowed, are you allowed to sell coins? Or you're not allowed to sell coins? Or you know, what are the different little red flags that go hey, this coin is a scam this coin is a scam this coin maybe not be a scam. You know? And so you know, you put your money in and then if it goes up a little bit, you take your money out, and then you'll play with the house money and then you let it right kind of thing. Kyle: Yeah. So which coins have you found that piqued your interest then? Allen: So the one that I'm getting into right now, I haven't got like I'm pretty new at this. So I'm still learning and looking around. The one that I have found that has a good chance of success right now is called Floki. Kyle: Floki. Like the Norse god. Allen: Uh huh. Yeah Kyle: The trickster god. Allen: Yeah. Floki dot INU Floki.INU. And so his symbol is a dog with the viking helmet.  Okay. So it's it's one of the meme coins, but they're doing a ton of advertising. They're coming out with some actual use for the coin soon. You know, so that one has already gone up in value a lot. And there's probably a lot more to go in my opinion. So that's one that I'm going into. Kyle: What's one that you're that you found some red flags on them? Allen: There's been a bunch. The names I don't know off the top my head but there was one. Oh, it's like world peace earth or something like that. You know, there's like, so there's so many of them. There's like, they call them weird names. Whatever's trending at the moment like just endgame coin and Avengers coin. Dan: Oh, I just read a story that the squid game coin is apparently the creators fleeced everybody. What? Kyle: What, what's your thoughts on hamster coins? Jack Dorsey's favorite. He thinks that's gonna overtake Etherium. Allen: Oh, really? I haven't heard of that one. Dan: Nobody has. Kyle: Nobody has, I know. Dan: Don't listen to Jack Dorsey. That's all I have to say. Allen: I mean, you know, it's so it's, it's like the Wild West is full of gambling. And you know, the guy that teached me about it. He's like, Yeah, you know, we probably have maybe another year or two years before this all this stuff gets regulated. And all these alt coins are just gone.  Kyle: It's kind of started already to Yeah, Mm hmm. I think didn't I see something about the SEC getting authority over was stable coins, stable coins just issued today. Allen: Oh, that's today. Okay. Dan: Biden said if you don't do it, we'll issue an executive order to make it happen? So it's on the way? Yeah, it's happening. They're there. They're the beginnings of regulation. Or I should say not like, we won't get there for a bit.  Allen: So because I mean, we think that, you know, the people behind these coins are like, really sophisticated and smart developers, and they spent all this time and effort, you know, creating a coin. It costs like $1 to make a coin. Kyle: Yeah. Dan and I were actually looking at making our own. Yeah, the two bowls going. Allen: You know, so it's like, yeah, it doesn't take a lot. And it's pretty simple. And people, they're, like, new coins come out every like five minutes. There's a new board. And so it's like, geez, yeah, you're Kyle: Constantly fighting that delusion.  Allen: Mm hmm. So it's interesting. It's something that is, you know, I'm playing with it. But it's money that I can afford to lose. And the bread and butter is still, you know, stock market options trading. Kyle: That's why I was gonna ask you what I mean, because now that you have a real risk manager side to you, like, what's your, how do you limit your risk then onto that? I'm assuming you do it based on like, a small percentage of your portfolio or like this is probably just play around money, right, especially when you're learning? Allen: Yeah. Yeah. So um, you know, I bought 30 grand of Ethereum. And that's is what I'm about to put at risk and all this stuff. So, but some of these coins like they're brand new, right? So they're little, and they can go up 500, 800, 10000% and then they will back down. Yeah. You can have a really big move. And some of the people that I know, they've this year, this past year, and this is why I got into it, because they took like really small amounts, and they've made you know, they have a million dollars or $5 million, or $3 million worth of cryptocurrencies. And I was like, why aren't you selling, you know, yeah. And then they go off and they're like, Well, you know, it's gonna go up more and you know, I gotta pay taxes. I don't want to pay 50 2% taxes or more moved to Puerto Rico and so they have all their reasons for.. Dan: Transfer for a more stable one. Allen: Mm hmm. Kyle: Dan just had this same conversation with a couple of his friends. Dan: Yeah, yeah, mate. Yeah. Kyle: 50% on the latest dip on Bitcoin and then refuses to sell any Kyle: It's 10% Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's like like you're saying like, take your money out. Let let it be house money. Yeah, exactly. Not getting risk on anything come on.  Kyle: And then you got money to reload because it drops again. Yes, I want to have some ammo laying around the to jump into something when the opportunity strikes Allen: Yep. Now I think you guys are you guys are traders you know you guys are watching the markets, you guys are there in the front of the screen, I'm not that much into it, you know, I'll keep my screen open but I'm not checking all the time. And so for me that's a little bit harder. And so, you know, I for my bitcoin and Etherium or whatever I'm not, I'm not selling, you know, even if it dips or goes up, I'm not selling I know I'm gonna hold it for another maybe 10-15 years. So hopefully it keeps going up, but we'll see how it goes. But for now the idea was, hey, just buy it, hold it. And if it keeps going up maybe you add a little bit here and there. So I've been doing that.  Dan: No,but yeah, that's your plan. It's a long term plan. You're not trying to strike it rich the people that are buying into these things trying to strike it rich and then refusing to ever sell. Allen: Oh, that's silly. Yeah Dan: Yes. Like you gotta get paid some point Allen: There was one guy on the had an article where he became a Dodge coin millionaire and he's like, I'm not selling like.. Dan: Oh, no, not a millionaire anymore. Allen: What's the point? Dan: You never were a millionaire, coz you never sold. Kyle: Exactly. Have you come across anything? I guess staking is kind of similar to derivatives. But like, If there comes a time where you can sell calls on your Bitcoin you can do something like that.  Allen: So yeah, so they just came out with, is it bati? I forget the name of it.  Dang it. The the first ETF Bitcoin ETF just came out. Dan: That's Yes, that's right. Um, that was a futures based one too, though, isn't it? Allen: Bitl. There we go. So, that's tradable. And that that has options. So, you know, right now it's at $39. I don't know if that's cheap enough for your wheel. But.. Dan: I think what cuz that's if that's based around a futures contract, it's going to be constantly losing money too overtime, right? Allen: Probably. Dan: Won't you get like double decay if you. So decay of the futures contract. And every time, Allen: Yeah every time they roll it forward a month they lose, right? Because I have all the fees and stuff to pay. So that is something.. Dan: That might be a really good one to sell Options. Allen: Yep. So I mean, I, you know, I've sold some calls on it, because I was like, Okay, if bitcoin goes up, and they're saying, you know, bitcoins gonna be 100,000 by the end of the year, I was like, Okay, I'll sell some calls on it. And or no, sorry, I'll buy some calls. I bought some calls. This is one of the few ones where I'm actually buying calls. Now that trade is still negative. But you know, it's a bet, you know, it's a bet. If it goes up, great. Dan: Yeah, just manage that risk. Allen: Mm hmm. Dan: So let's wrap things up with I want to ask you some questions about just some of the most common mistakes that you see from your students, or just the biggest struggles that they have and how they had to overcome those. Okay, yeah. So if you're going to give us like, just the top couple pitches, see? Allen: Okay, so first off, I would say is that they try to do too much too soon. And so one of the things that I always stress is, Hey, pick one strategy that fits who you are. And just focus on that one strategy, get really good at it, hammer it, do back testing, or get some back testing software, pay for it if you have to, and just do trade after trade after trade after trade until you understand it, until it's like, you know, second nature to you and you're consistently profitable. Only at that time, should you then venture off and say okay, let me add another strategy. Right. So that's the that's the first thing that I tell everybody a second thing is not all strategies are for every person. Mm hmm. Like for me if you told me Hey, you know, I'm gonna put a gun to your head and you have to be be profitable at futures trading, or be like well, you know, goodbye Allen: You know, tell my wife I love here. you know, telling her that life insurance is very well Allen: So it's not for me, you know, my temperament my style, the way I I am the risk temper the the risk appetite that I have is different than everybody else. And so you got to figure out what strategy and there's 1000 strategies and there's every every strategy out there you can make money there are people out there making money with futures day trading and, and Options on futures and, you know, pairs trading and whatever you can think of people are doing it, some of them making money, most are not, but if you find the thing that fits you and you're like, you know what, this this really, really makes sense to me, I really get this, then that's the one that you should focus on. Most people are just like, Oh, hey, you know, I found my friend is doing this or I can make a lot of money doing this or I saw an advertisement, I saw an email, and then they run into it, and then they get blown out of the water. Dan: We actually just had a discussion on that not too long ago, Dan, about, you know, when you try to copy somebody else's strategy, it's not your own, you don't have time and effort that you've got put into learning it, you're not passionate about it. So what you're saying makes a whole lot of sense. Like, yeah, you need to find the thing that speaks to you.  Allen: Mm hmm. And I guess, if I give you one more, it'll be that time goes by a lot faster than we realize, hmm. And so if there are people out there that have already paved the way, and you know, for a fact that they're doing well, then just do what they're doing, you know, or at least learn from them. Yeah, learn from, you know, if you can hire them, hire them, and just see what they're doing, learn, watch their strategies, and just do what they're doing. And hopefully it should work, right. And then you can tweak it once you do what they're doing. And once you're getting good results, then you can start tweaking it and be like, okay, you know, I'm gonna make it a little bit more conservative, a little more aggressive, a little bit this little bit that, but follow the plan first, you know, make it work, and then you add your own twist to it. We have so many people that come in, they're like, you know, I've been following you or I've been listening to you for two years. Okay, how many trades have you done? Well, not really. You know, I've been trying to do it on my own and watching free YouTube videos, like, Okay, well, you only get so far watching free Youtube videos, because you don't number one, you don't know how legit they're right? That's one thing. Anybody can like I say that, you know, any idiot can make a YouTube video. Allen: It used to be hard to write a book, you know, you have to go to a publisher get published and have references and all that stuff nowadays. Man, you put up a PDF on Amazon, it takes like a weekend. So don't be like, Oh, I'm an author. Okay, great. You know, everybody's an author. No. So it's really you got to be really careful of what you listen to. Kyle: Speaking of which, where can they find your book? PassiveTrading.com. Yeah, that's PassiveTrading.com. It's a free book, you know, just pay for the shipping, and we'll ship you out a printed copy of it. Dan: So PassiveTrading.com, we'll link in the description for that. Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners before we sign off here? Allen: No. I mean, it's been a lot of fun. You know, you guys, you guys are awesome. And I love it that you guys are honest. And you share the wins and the losses. Most of the time, you only see oh, I made 1,000,000% Oh, I made 20%. You don't see the losses, you don't see the the nitty gritty behind the scenes stuff. And you guys are showing that. So that's I love that part.  Dan: Well it's the same thing with gamblers too, right? You talk to a guy who goes to the casino and says, Oh, I won $300 last night. Oh, how much did you lose the night before? Yeah. Allen: Um, but yeah, I mean, if people are interested in Options, it's a great, it's a great way to add some passive money, you know? And if that's, if that fits, you know, it doesn't fit for everybody. Like some people, they come in and, and they're like, Yeah, I'm trying to do this, but I'm, I'm doing this and do that. I'm like, Dude, you're too aggressive. You know, if you want to be trading every day or every other day, then this is not for you. You know, find something you can do this part time, and then do with the rest of your time. Play something that fits your style more, but that's really important. You know, find your style, and then it'll just it just a whole lot easier. It's just which is way easier. Dan: What else can they, so we find your OptionGenius.com. You've also got your podcast. Allen: Yep. It's called the Option Genius Podcast. Kyle: Oh, hey. Allen: Yeah, we got really creative with our very own brains. Dan: All right, perfect. Yeah, we'll make sure we link all that stuff. Right. So if anybody wants to find out more they can check it out the description. Kyle: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us Allen, this has been a great conversation all of your your knowledge and experience has been a good time to listen to. We really appreciate you coming by the shop and talking with us today. Dan: Yeah, the hardships too, because I feel like you learn more from those sometimes.  Allen: Mm, yeah. They hit on the head. You know, sometimes you got to do it over and over again. Eventually, they eventually they sink in. Kyle: Alright, well there you have it, folks. We'll have all of that fun stuff in the episode description all those links for you. Any parting word, Allen? Allen: Just you know, I I tell everybody you know, trade with the odds in your favor.  Dan: The odds be ever in your favor. Kyle: It's like in the movie? Kyle: All right. Well, I guess it's time to kick everybody out. You don't got to go home but you can't stay here. Until next time. Happy trades. Allen: Bye, guys.   LOVE ALLEN SAMA - OPTION GENIUS AND WANT TO LEARN MORE TRADING TIPS  AND TRICKS? HERE ARE SOME NEXT STEPS... SUBSCRIBE TO OUR PODCAST FREE 9 LESSON COURSE: https://optiongenius.com/  WATCH THIS FREE TRAINING: https://passivetrading.com  JOIN OUR PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps.

Kyle Akin is a veteran, business owner and a Grants Pass native. Listen in as Kyle openly shares his successes and challenges during the pandemic and his encouraging words to business owners in the community and those who want to own a business in the future. To learn more about Crescendo Spirits and their fine products ➡️https://www.crescendospirits.com/ Also, be sure and head over to your liqueur store in town and pickup some of their fine products.

James: Hi listeners, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. This is James Kandasamy and Achieve Wealth Podcast focuses on Commercial Real Estate Operators who are killing it in all kind of commercial real estate asset classes. Today, I have Kyle Mitchell. Kyle is from California who has bought his first deal of 42 units in the market of Tucson, Arizona and he's going to be sharing his experience on coming to that first deal. Kyle is also a co-host of his weekly real estate podcast, which is Passive Income True Multifamily Real Estate.  Hey, Kyle, welcome to the show. Kyle: Hey James, how you doing? I'm happy to be on and thanks for inviting me.  James: Oh, it's an honor to see someone, you know starting to buy in this market, in this red hot market right now where it's so competitive; even though it's still the best time to buy just because of the climate of buying the deals. The interest rate is really good and there's a lot of capital looking for a place to park their money and make money as well but the biggest problem is finding the right deal. So tell me about your journey. I mean, when did you start looking for deals? I mean, when did you start even thinking about investing in real estate? Kyle: Yeah. So I've been investing in real estate since 2013 and how I got started was even in high school, I invested a little bit of money in the stock market. I had a couple of thousand dollars invested in the stock market and I lost it in six months and it was nothing that I could do about it. And I just learned quickly that I wanted more control over my investments and I just started looking online and listening to some podcasts, reading some books. Like most people, Rich Dad Poor Dad was one of the books that changed my life and I just knew I want to get into real estate. So I bought my first single-family home in Long Beach, California, southern California and started building up a small portfolio of single-family homes across the United States. And from there, I learned quickly that I couldn't scale as fast as I wanted to single-family homes, and I wanted real estate to be my vehicle to provide myself and my family with financial freedom. And so I started looking at some other asset classes and that's when I found multifamily. James: I got it. Got it. Got it. You just reminded me of something very interesting in my life when I went into real estate. I mean, the first time I read Robert Kiyosaki's book, maybe like 10 15 years ago when I was busy working and I never understood the book. I'm not sure, I know it changed a lot of people's lives when they read it. I mean, I recently read it again and now, it all makes sense. In the beginning, it didn't make sense. I say, what is this guy talking about? Because we are so busy on a W-2 job and especially me, I can never understand what is it he's trying to talk about? So what was the aha moment when you read that book, I mean, what is that?  Kyle: Yeah, to be honest. I did read that book and I reread it several times. The one that really changed my thinking was his Cash Flow Quadrant Book if I'm being honest but he really teaches you how to understand how your time works for you, basically. And so, being a business owner and an entrepreneur, you can have other people working for you while you make money. Otherwise, you're trading your time for money, being an independent contractor or a small business owner or W-2 employee. And so that was the biggest mindset shift to me is really purchasing assets not liabilities that cash flow while you sleep and having other people work on them for you. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, there may be people who are in W-2 job who have read his book and never get it and I was one of them. Because I think when you're working 9 to 5, W-2 job you're busy and suddenly when you get this knowledge about, hey, you can do business, you can do investment, it's like completely out of your arena right. I read a few pages and I gave up on it because it just doesn't align to me.  So for the people who are in W-2 job just be aware, sometimes it may not align with you because you are busy working in your own job, but I think when you mingle with people in real estate or with the business people you get it but if you are just working in your table to job, you may not get it. Just to be aware, you have to change your network to really make a shift in your life.  So tell us about how did you choose to be an operator? Because you bought this 42 units recently and I remember talking to you like one year ago when I meet you in California or maybe six months ago when we met up there in Long Beach and you were like, I want to get into the game. I know multifamily is really good and you started your own meetup and everybody's excited. And you said, okay, I want to get started with the capital raising and we had that discussion about being an operator and what's your background.  Tell me about your background and how did you choose to become an operator?  Kyle: Yeah, so my background is being an operator and that's why I'm an operator now, but my background was in the golf business and I was a general manager and a regional manager for a golf management company for about 15 years. So what I did was manage people, manage the business, manage the P&Ls, drive revenues, control expenses, hire/fire, manage people. So my whole entire background is really in operations and Logistics in business. And so at the time when we were talking, I was really struggling because I knew when I first started our company that I wanted to be an operator. However, it's a hot market. It's very tough to find deals and I was kind of like that Facebook frenzy, the fear of missing out, you want to get in the game. And so I was struggling because I was presented with some deals to raise capital on and I knew these people and they were good operators and it was a really good opportunity for me to jump on board. I decided not to jump on board, not because I didn't believe in the operator or the deal but really because I wanted to stick to my values and who I believe I am and then also my strengths and my strengths are really as an operator. And so we passed on those and just kind of kept grinding and I knew we would eventually get to the point where we did get a property and we can operate it on our own and that's kind of where we are today. James: So were you able to see someone else whose an operator and you can align with it or how did you know that being an operator is what you want to do? Kyle: It's because of my background. It's just something that I'm naturally kind of transferring over from the golf business to here. I think a lot of people here, okay, you're in the golf business; that's completely different than real estate and that may be the case. But we're doing the same things in the golf business that we're doing in real estate. We are driving our revenues, we're controlling our expenses, we're making sure that our employees or our third-party property management company are doing the job that they need to do to operate the property. So it was an easy transition really for me and it's just something I've been doing for so long that I really enjoy it. I'm not a big sales guy. I mean, we do find our own deals and do all that kind of stuff too but as far as raising capital, it wasn't something that I was really in love with doing. And really with an operator, it's the stuff that I love doing; diving into the P&Ls, working out the business plan, working together with the third-party property management company to make sure that we are doing the right things to get to the numbers so our investors make their returns.  James: Yeah, I mean, with so much Capital nowadays looking for a place to park their money and make money. So sometimes it easier to start with being a capital raiser or being a partner who's bringing a chunk of capital. But for me, it's always the operator whose at the top of the food chain. They make the most money, they control the whole deal, they are the backbone of the business. This person who's the operator is so important because they know the detail of the business. They know how did they come up with the per forma of rent increase? How did they underwrite the deal? Which comps did they go and shop? And when some things don't go right, the operator has to bring back the plane to the flight path again and they are the one who can control all that.  Whereas if you're in any other role it's very hard for you to do that. And I think it's important that the investors need to know who are the operators because the operators are the backbone of the deal. I think that's a very key fact. So coming back to the deal that you did, how did you choose to do 42 units and not 10 units or 100 units?  Kyle: Yeah. So I think in a perfect world, we would have probably started with something a little bit larger, but I think you also have to know your limits as an operator and as a money raiser. And so, let's just say we were going to go after a 10 million-dollar deal, that's 120 units, you can back into the number that you're going to need to be able to close on. So you need 3 million dollars for the down payment, another let's just say million for the capex so you're at 4 million. So does your net worth and liquidity get to what you need to close on the loan? Can you raise 4 million?  And so all those things we had tracked and we felt that this 42 unit at the price point that it was that we could raise enough money, we have the net worth to put in to take it down and it's a good size property to have our first deal. James:  So how did you align your team to be ready to take on that 42 units? I'm trying to figure out how did you come up with that 3 million-dollar limit. So you must have either your net worth or someone who acted as a key principle as a KP.  Kyle: Yeah, so this is an interesting story, actually. Originally, we were going with the Freddie Mac loan and the team was my fiance and I, who is my business partner, and then our parents were going to sign on the loan as KPs to bring on the net worth piece and liquidity. And halfway through we were, I wouldn't say we're struggling with the capital raised but we were not feeling as comfortable as we should have. We had to raise about a million dollars on this deal and about three weeks in, we're about halfway there. And so the plan was to bring in another partner to help with asset management and raise Capital if we were not able to get there and use our extension. Well at that point, our mortgage broker said, hey, Kyle, it's too late to bring on a GP. We've already submitted your loan application to Freddie Mac. We're not adding any more GPS. So then, we were stuck between a rock and a hard place, to be honest, because it was either continue to raise what we're doing the 506B, so it's not like we can meet new people; our network is our network at that time. And so we would really have to grind it out and convince some of the people that weren't on board to come onboard or come up with our own capital or switch over and try to find another lender. And the reason why we were in that position is I fully believe that you need to raise a hundred percent of your capital or else you just can't execute on your business plan.  If your business plan is to raise a million dollars and you only raise 700,000, you're $300,000 short on executing on your business plan. And that's very crucial and we are not the type of investors that utilize the cash flow from our properties to put back into the capex. We feel like that could really hurt you. If the revenues go down or for some reason you have a big expense, you don't have cash flow that month, now all of a sudden you can't put money back into the property and your business plan suffers. So we always raise the capital upfront for the capital improvements so that we can execute them, whether our incomes are up or down. So we decide to switch; 29 days left to close after our extension, we switch from Freddy to Fanny and a new lender and it was a pretty stressful time. But so we brought on a KP to sign on it and that KP we had known for about 10 months. We've been building a relationship with them and wanted to do other deals. We looked at several other deals together and we met through our meet up. And there was one other partner that came on board that helped with asset management and we raised about 900,000 ourselves and this other person came in and raised 100,000 to close. And we literally record about an hour before we were supposed to close. James: Got it. Got it. That's very interesting. So how did you align passive investors before your first deal?  Kyle: Yeah, so we had been building our investor list for over a year before we got this deal. And so it was something that we had planned all along. And the reason why we really hadn't done a deal up until that point, we wanted to make sure that we felt comfortable with the amount of money that we could raise so we did several things. We obviously went to networking events. We started our own meetup and we also told all our friends and family what we were doing and through that, through our monthly newsletter, we had an email drip campaign setup or it's 20 months of emails just educating them on who we are, what we do, why we do it and it's really about adding value to other people and educating them about what you do and making them comfortable with what you do. So after about a year, we built up that list and it's several hundred people up at this point and we felt comfortable to where we could raise the money.  James: So which channel was the most effective? I think you did some kind of drip campaign through your emails and you did a meet-up and you also tell everybody and is there anything that I missed out of and can you explain which one was the most effective in getting the passive investors because you are new. I mean you're completely new.  Kyle: Yeah, I would say it was 50/50 between friends and family who have known us for a while. And then the meetup. I would definitely say the meetup group was the strongest one. Because at the meetup, on a monthly basis, we had been doing it for 12 months at that time, you're seeing people face-to-face for 12 months and you're becoming friends with these people and very close to them and getting to know them on a personal level. I mean really building that strong relationship with them. So I think that was the strongest for sure.  We do have a podcast as well, but that didn't start until March of this year so that was not something where it was kind of on board quite yet.  James: Okay. So today, let's say, you found the deal you underwrite it, it works well; so how did you communicate that to the people in your list? And so how did you convince them to invest with you?  Kyle: Yeah, so it started with an email but it also took a ton of phone calls. I mean, I think it's all on the follow-up when you're raising money and you can't just call someone, after seeing him, six months later and say hey, I've got a deal, do you want to put in 50,000 on this deal? It's really about building that relationship. So, every month I try and reach out to our investors and whether it's through email or text or phone call, I try and touch them in some way on top of our monthly communication with them, through our drip campaign and database emails. But it was really about talking to them, meeting them in person for coffee one by one and telling about the opportunity that we have. James: So apart from the 50% of investors, which came from your friends and family. I mean, they're friends and family and they don't mind giving you some money. So the people who are complete strangers and you have build up that relationship, so what do you think is the biggest factor that they trust you with their money? Kyle: The value that we've added to them. If they want to hop on a phone call with me and just ask me for advice on where they're going with their real estate career, we would do free calls. I think also the meetup, the podcast, monthly emails; it's just everything that we provide for them. We also have a free online passive Investors Guide that they can read that's about 30 40 pages that help to educate them. And I think the other thing was they just saw the passion in us.  I mean, Lita - who's my wife now, fiance back then - we would drive to Tucson at 2:00 in the morning because we both had full-time jobs at that time and I've since left but she still had one and she only gets one day off a week. So on her day off, we would leave at 2 in the morning, 2:30 in the morning, get to Tucson around 9:00 or 10:00 a.m, tour properties, meet with investors, brokers for about 8 hours and then drive back and get back the next day at like 1:00 or 2:00 a.m. So just telling the story about what we're doing and how hard we're working, I think people saw it in us that this was something we were very serious about, we didn't take lightly and we operate our company as a business, you know, this is a serious business and we're an investment firm and we take it seriously. We don't do this part-time and we don't do this kind of on the side, which you can certainly do and I know several successful investors who do that, but they also take it very seriously like a business and I think that's a very important thing. Kyle: Yeah, certainly but I would say that I don't think you can learn everything from a mentor until you actually go through it. I think mentorship is needed and you definitely should have one so you can limit your mistakes, but you just don't know what you don't know and really until you go through that process, kind of like what I went through with the lending experience. It's really difficult to get that through a mentorship program, sometimes, at a certain point, you just gotta jump in there and do it.  James: Yeah. Yeah. I know some people go for boot camp after boot camp, mentor after mentor and never get started. So sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and take a chance on a deal that at least makes sense. So other than the financing issues that you mentioned in the beginning, throughout the closing process, was there any big aha moment that you see throughout the process with the first deal?  Kyle: Yeah, I think we would have just lined up our partners beforehand instead of trying to do it all on our own. We could have gotten it done on our own but it was just a very stressful thing and it could have really put our investors' money at risk, which is something that you just don't want to do. So I think lining up your team upfront. But I think from like an operations standpoint, I think where my experience helped is that - and during the close, you still need to make sure the property is operating on a positive note. If it starts to go back, your proceeds from the lenders are going to get cut and a lot of other things; your returns are not going to look as good.  So you need to stay on the property management company that's currently managing it, whether you're going to switch over or not. You're going to have to manage the broker to make sure they're doing everything they can to make sure that they're renting up, they're still putting renovations in there and they're managing it at the level that you want it to be managed when you take over. James: Yeah, absolutely. So that's what you want to make sure that everybody does that. And what about any issues in the money race, were there any surprises at the end?  Kyle: No, actually there wasn't. I mean, we raised all the funds prior to close, which was fantastic. I would say that raising money, you really get a peek behind the curtains of people's lives; whether they're closing on a house and need to show liquidity and can invest or they're out of town for a while or they're having a baby so they can invest. So all I would say is that if you plan on raising a million dollars, you should probably have 2 million dollars of commitments. Just because someone says, "Yes, I'll invest" doesn't mean they will. And something can be going on in their life where, yeah, they want to commit and invest but it's just not the right timing. So raising money, it's a huge timing thing.  You're raising money for 30 to 45 days and so, it's not a big window and there are things going on in other people's lives that may stop them from being able to commit to that one deal.  James: Got it. Got it. So Kyle, I mean you are a new person, bought your first deal. What was your strategy to find that first deal? Brokers, off-market or what did you do? Kyle: Yeah, it was really networking and leveraging the brokers as much as I can but it was driving out to the markets and it's something that we still do to this day. We're in the market every single week because we believe in those strong relationships and meeting people face-to-face and showing them that we're serious. I think a lot of out-of-state investors call brokers on a regular basis, but hardly ever see them face to face. I found it very beneficial to have lunches and dinners and coffees and touring the properties with the brokers and having face-to-face because you get to learn who they are and even outside of the business aspect, you get to know them as a person, as an individual, so that's been really beneficial to us. So the way we found the 42 unit; we were in town, in Tucson and one of the brokers called me and said, hey Kyle, we just got the keys to this property. Would you like to walk it with us? I haven't seen in any of the units and so we walked it and so we were the first ones to see it and it was three weeks before it was on market. And by the time they brought it to market, we had done all of our due diligence. We had a head start on everyone and we were able to take it down.  James: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean usually brokers, especially on a much larger deal, they are very, very skeptical or they do not want to deal with a lot of new people. Because there's a lot of people looking at the much larger deal and you went to 40 something unit, which a lot of big guys don't look at it, which I think is absolutely a good strategy for a person to start. I know a lot of people out there telling just go and buy above 100 units because there's so much capital you can syndicate but it's also harder to get started because there are a lot of people looking at above 100 units. So I started with 45 units and I really learned a lot. So do you think you are learning a lot and how many months already right now? Kyle: It's been two months since we've closed and yeah, absolutely, I am learning a lot on the whole process from A to Z. Now we're in my comfort zone, where I'm operating the property, managing the property manager. So I'm still learning on how the property management company kind of does things but I really do feel like I'm in my comfort zone right now. James: Awesome. Yeah, I mean you really learn a lot when you buy deals on your own and you buy smaller properties because you're going to be learning everything. But the thing is, the knowledge that I got from 45 units and the knowledge that you're getting in the 42 units is going to take you to above 1000 units pretty easily because you are doing it yourself. So sometimes when you buy a too big of a deal, there are too many GPs in the GP shape and you give it to a third party, you're not there, you're not being an active asset manager you may skip a lot of knowledge.           So do you have a property manager right now for 42 units or how is that being worked out? Kyle: We do and I think we got lucky on this. We have a property management company that is the biggest Property Management Company in Phoenix, and they also have a lot of properties in Tucson. It just so happens that most of their owners have sold their properties in Tucson so now they're trying to build back their portfolio, so I caught them on a really good time. They know I want to scale in those two markets and so they typically do not manage properties under 100 units and we were able to convince them to manage this property. So we don't have full-time staff, but we have a part-time leasing agent and a part-time maintenance person, but we're able to piggyback off of another property so that they're both full-time employees.  And so that's worked out really good and having a third party property management company that's as large as they are were able to leverage. They have an in-house GC team. We can leverage all their relationships. They have an in-house marketing team. So there's not a lot of 42 units that have their own Facebook page, their own website and all that kind of stuff and this third party property management company does that for us. James: Awesome. That's very interesting because I know 42 units are going to be hard to have. I think you probably can have like one person but you are managing with the leasing agent and part-time maintenance so that's awesome. And they are sharing it with other properties, which is really good. And so why did you choose Tucson?   Kyle: You know, first we were looking into Phoenix and Phoenix is a really hot market right now and we love everything about it. It's just very competitive. So a lot of the brokers that we were talking to said Kyle what you're looking for value-add, B to C class assets take a look at Tucson. And at that point, this was a year and a half ago or just over a year ago, we weren't really sold on it because we didn't know much about it. So what we did is we started going out there every week and start learning the market; the rent growth, the population growth. All those metrics are very good in Tucson and they follow the Phoenix market. So the more time we spend out there, the more we started to like it.           Now, I would say about Tucson is you have to be careful where you buy. It's definitely a pocketed area, but it's got job diversity just like Phoenix does and that's why we like both of those markets. The proximity of them is another good point for us. I'm out in the markets every week and so I can either drive or fly but be there pretty quickly. Whereas if I was investing in Florida, it would be difficult for me to make it out there on a weekly basis and dealing with the time changes and things like that.  James: Got it. And what is the value-add that you see in this deal? Kyle: Well, there's a lot of value-adds on it. The previous owner was a very hands-off owner. And the first time we saw the property, it was pretty evident there's just not a lot of money being put back into the property. The sign on the front on the corner had a phone number that was disconnected. They did not have any online presence so I'm actually not even sure how they were leasing up the units so that was an opportunity right there. And we've already been able to get the performer rents prior to any renovation starting just by having a phone number that works, having someone that responds. You know, the property management company that they had in there was a single-family home provider so any type of service call, they're getting charged 35 40 dollars an hour, even if it's to open the door for someone and so there's a lot of repair and maintenance money in there that is being wasted. But overall, it's just being mismanaged from an income standpoint and an expense standpoint.  James: Got it. Got it. So, I want to go back for people who are newbies who want to get started in this business, is there any advice that you want to give to newbies that you want to emphasize right now? Kyle: Yeah, I've said this a lot lately and it's, just get out of your comfort zone. It's something that is very difficult at times but once you start doing it, you really start to get comfortable with being uncomfortable and that's been the biggest thing for us. I would say 15 months ago, I would not be able to speak on this podcast. I could not speak in front of a group of people at a meetup, I was just terrified. And I just decided to jump right in. So we've got two meetups now. I've got a podcast and I quit my job to pursue this full time. We've just closed on our first property and now I'm on other people's podcast so I would just say get out of your comfort zone. I try and do something three or four times a year now that gets me out of my comfort zone because as you get out of your comfort zone, you grow as a person, you grow as a business owner and you will elevate your game that much faster. James: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So why do you want to do this for the rest of your life, why? Kyle:  It's building generational wealth. Multifamily is not 'get rich quick' by any means but it's definitely getting rich over a long period of time and you can build generational wealth, which is what I'm focused on and really want to provide my family with that opportunity. But at the same time, we're helping other people build generational wealth and that's what I love the most. We can add value into other people's lives and we can help create passive income for other people. A lot of people who we talked to don't know about multifamily or passive investing. They only know the stock market and so we really want to help educate people and say, hey, look, there's another way, there's a better way and there's a better way to diversify your portfolio as well. So we love helping other people build generational wealth while we do the same thing. James: Awesome. Awesome. I know you have been on a few other podcasts, is there anything that you think that you have not shared in any of the podcast that you want to share to our listeners? Kyle: Yeah. Actually, aligning your interest with your business partners. So my business partner is my fiance and I think that a lot of people ask us how do you work with your significant other and I don't think it's for everybody but the one thing that has worked really well for us is making sure that we wrote down our goals and aligned our interest before we started anything to make sure that we're on the same page. So even through ups and downs, we always remember and look back to that and say okay, these are our goals. So even if it's not your fiance or significant other, if it's your business partner, you've got to make sure that your goals are aligned before. Otherwise, once you're doing deals, it's just too late to start having those kinds of conversations. So definitely have the conversations upfront.  And while you're building your team, make sure that you take the time to get on the same page because a lot of people just want to get going now and if you want to get going now and you get the wrong business partner, it's going to come crumbling down in the future. And so, take more time upfront to set up your teams and align yourself with the right people so that you can streamline your business and really be off and going on the right foot. James: Awesome. Awesome. Where and how our listeners can find you?  Kyle: Yeah, sure. We've got our podcast that you mention, which is Passive Income Through Multifamily Real Estate. Our website is www.limitless-estates.com, and you can shoot me an email at Kmitchell@limitless - estates.com.  James: Awesome, Kyle. So thanks for coming over to this podcast. And for the audience, just to announce our launch of our own mentoring program. It's called multifamily A to Z Mentoring Program: Learn how to be an Operator.  I'm not sure, is there any program out there that teaches any newbies or anybody who want to get started in this business and how to be an operator and we want to cover A to Z because we do A to Z. So Property Management, Asset Management, raising money and how to build a business by itself. So we have launched that, if you are interested, let me know. Send me a mail James@achieveinvestmentgroup.com. I think we are done. Thank you very much, Kyle, for coming on board and you add tons of value to our listeners. Thank you.  Kyle: Thanks, James. I had a blast.  

Do you struggle setting up efficient systems so you can get things done? Do you have a hard time establishing and building a culture in your office or within yourself? Are you uncertain on how you best function in the workforce? Then you probably want to listen to today's interview with Kyle Dobbs, who owns Compound Performance in Saint Louis, Missouri and this is his thing. Aside from being an awesome coach, he focuses with personal trainers, coaches, physical therapists, as well as gyms on building exactly what I just said: establishing the culture, making sure that leaders are in place in managing people effectively, making systems efficient so we can maximize revenue streams and results. And he talks a lot about personality archetyping as well in this very long but very awesome interview. I hope that you like it, I hope you get as much out of it as I did. And without further ado, let's give Kyle Dobbs a shot. For more information on Kyle, he can be found Instagram: @compoundperformance_ Facebook: kyledobbs4 and Compound Performance Website: compoundperformance.com Here are the links mentioned in the show: Inside Tracker Lucy Hendricks DISC Personality test Google Drive Bill Hartman Google Forms Evernote How to Configure Your iPhone to Work for You, Not Against You Ben House Human Matrix Enjoy the video and modified transcript Modified Transcript Zac: You have an incredibly unique skill set that you are offering to folks like us in the industry in regards to setting up system building, organization, creating a healthy culture within companies and businesses, and I think that that's something that is vastly underappreciated within our field. You can have a wonderful idea, but if your execution is lackluster, whether its business in-person or online, you're likely going to fail. And I think a lot of people fail because they just don't have those systems in place. So that's why I wanted to bring you into this show. Tell me though, how the heck did you get into this? How does Kyle Dobbs, a yoked bro with a better beard and better hair than I, get into building systems, building culture, with people? What's your story? Kyle Dobbs: I started as a trainer, just like a lot of other people out there. And as I grew with that, I got really passionate into development. Mostly from the training and physiological side of things. That development and education did eventually lead me into leadership and management and with that I started building a lot of the organizational skills and general communication skills that I try to use now. As I got into upper management, and managing managers and directing departments and things of that nature, I got into a position in my last job where I was consulting with not only trainers and fitness facilities, but high-level executive teams within the finance community, which within large real estate companies and the New York market. I was working with a behavioral psychologist at the time on interoffice relationships and communication to decrease, essentially, autonomic stress. So locating environmental coherence within both the office space and their home lives and trying to also integrate an intelligence training into that. We took a ninety day blood work with people, looking at stress markers, looking at endogenous sex hormones, micronutrient deficiencies, whatever, all that good stuff. And then we were also measuring HRV on a daily basis, so looking at autonomic hyperactivity and HPA access hyperactivity, within the client base themselves. Those were  the diagnostics we were testing from a physiological standpoint. At the same time, we were running personality archetypes on them and seeing what their actual environmental and communication preferences were. And with that, developing the tools and awareness within the individuals themselves first; understanding how they prefer to be communicated with and how they perceive other archetypes. [caption id="attachment_9609" align="aligncenter" width="810"] I like to perceive my archetypes bold...and highlighted[/caption] A lot of this stuff is very subconsciously driven. It's very subcortical. You're not necessarily aware of what those preferences are. We find that people, instead of working within environments that they're more acclimated to. Instead, they acclimate and adapt to work environments and work demands that drive money. And finance, and all those things that we want from a social construct stand point. And that's fine, humans are the great improvisers. We adapt better than anything else, ever. Even though we have the ability to adapt and to do so very well, we were finding that those adaptations still drove high levels of autonomic stress and sympathetic tone. So, people are running around all day -- and night, if they're not regulating at home -- with higher blood pressure, higher heart rate, higher core body temperature. And then looking at higher cortisol levels, higher adrenaline levels, lower testosterone levels, especially in men, and also decreased cognitive function. There were overly sympathetic. From a work productivity standpoint, that was also suffering. So that's how we got the buy-in from the corporate institutions themselves. First, bringing out the self-awareness and then working with them in groups as teams on building out communication strategies with one another, peer to peer, and then with management to employee. Finding out how to actually speak to one another in a way that was both efficient and effective given their archetype and also setting an environment that is conducive to those archetypes working well together with one another. And then also leveraging people's unique skill sets based on those archetypes for the success of the whole, giving them more purpose within the team but doing so in a way that really leveraged their individual strengths rather than maybe what their job demands might have been. So  doing a little bit of reorganization from that standpoint as well. And for me that was incredibly intriguing and satisfying. When I left that company and did my journey back to the midwest, I essentially started a consulting company. I work now with the strength and conditioning facilities, personal training facilities, and then individuals within the mentorship program where I use a lot of the same tools to help them with their teams and their client basis on a smaller scale which is great for me because it blends fitness with the actual leadership and community building of what I was doing before. Zac: I like that you were very scientific about making the changes with your previous job. With your clients  now, are you still tracking some of those variables? Are you having them measure HRV? Kyle: If they want to, I make that an optional thing. What I work with the most, with the people I work with now, is just looking at work performance. Especially being in fitness, a lot of them are tracking autonomics somehow anyway. It's something that more so where they're actually doing the tracking because they're excited about it. I offer the blood work as a third party option, I work with Inside Tracker based out of Austin, so I offer that as a third party at cost for them. Just to look at beginning, middle, and end numbers and I look for improvements over time there. But it is a pretty hefty expense and not everybody takes advantage of it. The majority of them do measure their own HRV or at the very least measure morning heart rate and look for changes off of baseline. They know that if they're plus ten to fifteen beats per minute, for a week, that they're probably going under some  systemic stress. So we look for just trends going lower with that. Same thing with HRV, we don't look at it that acutely, it's always looking at trends and looking at maybe environmental changes we can make prior to changes in the way they're training because all these individuals are also knowingly and willingly, , proactively accruing stress on a daily basis as well. So you have to differentiate at that point the physical and mechanical stress of training to the psychological and cognitive stress of incoherence from a lifestyle standpoint. There's a lot of reading data and then asking a lot of questions, looking at what their lifestyle is going through at that point rather than looking at maybe increase training demands or things of that nature acute-ly. Zac: As long you track some type of key performance indicator (KPI), in this case, work performance, everything else is gravy. Kyle: That's what it all boils down to. , HRV and the physiological metrics with people that are in fitness are so multifactorial. That, one, I don't want to get a false positive, but I also don't want to get a false negative based on some of those other things. At the end of the day, they're coming to me for work performance, not for improved HRV. So that's what I'm going to be looking at and we do that through a series of objective key results (OKRs) and some other principles that we'll talk about in a little bit but that's really what I'm looking at. Why personality testing? Zac: In terms of you getting into change or establishing these archetypes within the people you worked with in the past and having that be the intervention that you did at work, what led you to thinking that that was the big change that needed to be made in order to positively impact both work performance and these variables? For example, did you notice a difference in terms of the HRV measures when they were at the office or at work days versus just days they had off if it was the weekends or vacation? And if so, how did that lead you to going with communication as your primary intervention? Kyle: It was a little bit of both.  we definitely saw that over weekends, systemic stress really wasn't going down. A lot of it was because these people also had terrible lifestyle habits and they also, especially being in New York, they didn't leave work at work. Their weekends were still stress filled, they're still answering emails, they're still thinking about work all the time. A lot of them actually dreaded weekends because of the work they might lose once we started actually talking about that process. But we did notice when people weren't on vacations we'd see a little change early on but the longer the vacation went on, the more it would go back to normal because they'd start getting stressed about missing work. Their lives were being determined and dictated by their work rather than the other way around. From a communication standpoint, a lot of that information came from the behavioral psychologist I was working with. She'd been doing a little bit of work on this prior to working with me, she was already consulting with a few other companies and really taught me a lot about that process. As I was learning it, it was also really becoming applicable to the training that I was seeing from managing trainers and managing managers and looking at what makes a trainer successful from a professional basis. A lot of it, that I notice throughout the years, had more to do with how they interacted with their clients, how they engaged with them, and how they set that environment, rather than the amount of technical expertise they actually possessed. This is something that's always frustrating to trainers that always value education, and we have a bias towards education because that's our interest. This is something that's always frustrated people and, to be truthful, frustrated me in the past as a trainer. , I'm a very introverted individual, and communication has been something that I always had to really work at as far as being able to speak to different people. Especially to different people of different personality types and interest than that of myself. A lot of trainers are so highly focused on the aspect of training and not the aspect of the other 165 hours a week that their clients go through that they speak to them as if they might be trainers themselves. Trainers that maybe were missing or lacking of education that maybe were extrovert in personality, I noticed were talking to these clients about their lives. , about their communities, about their relationships, things that we might think are trivial from a training perspective, but are actually really important in setting the tone for lifestyle coherence and recovery and just purposefulness. We're having all this success in setting the environment for training. They're making it an anticipatory event rather than an obligation for the clients. It was something they were looking for and coming to. And it was all based on the relationship they were forming. As I was learning more about the archetypes, more about environmental coherence, it really started a lightbulb that  went off in my head that these principles are the same thing. Whether you're in an office building or whether you're an executive or whether you're a trainer is really irrelevant when you start talking about relationships. It's still people to people. Social norms play a role. At the end of the day, people want to be communicated with in a language and on terms that they understand. If you can get people to do that, and make them aware of that process and educate them on strategies to do so, they're going to be more successful in any endeavor they're in. The process for myself has made me a better husband and father, has made me a better friend, which for me is way more tactful than being a better trainer or manager in a sense. But it all crosses over, its principle-based so it applies to everything. Zac: Yeah, and I think one thing that most everyone is lacking in some degree is connection and I think especially to with technology and how we're always glued to phones. No one's ever taught the soft skills of how to have a conversation or how to build connection or rapport or anything. I mean, you've trained countless people, Kyle, and it eventually comes to the point where you're doing the same shit but the reason why they're with you is because they think you're a good person and that is their one time they get to hang out with someone that they enjoy. [caption id="attachment_9610" align="alignnone" width="810"] Or as I prefer, a "bruh"[/caption] Kyle: Yeah, I mean, what's adherence? From a contextual standpoint, the vast majority of the clients I've trained over the years have no knowledge of program design, or periodization, or anatomy and physiology but they do know what a good experience looks like. They do know what engagement looks like, they do know what communication looks like, and they know if they're enjoying themselves or not. That's what gets people coming back and if the trainer can combine technical expertise with those soft skills, they're going to crush it. That's what it comes out to be and the downside of that is I've seen way more people become successful with soft skills and little to none technical expertise than I have the other way around. We really might be fooling ourselves with what's actually the most important for the client. We feed that bias of educational law and we justify a lot of our actions by it. I've invested a lot of money in education and I value education, I've been an educator, but you also have to think outside the box and how you approach a demographic that is not fitness based. If they were fitness based, they wouldn't need you. If they understood anatomy and physiology and training and periodization and the required ownership to get to their goals from a physical standpoint, they wouldn't be paying you to train them. And I think that's something that trainers have to understand, that training is a choice for their client base. And they have to enjoy the experience. You're not necessarily educating them on how to become a trainer, you're not teaching them Latin with all the anatomy and physiology that you may know, you're providing them a path to fitness that they actually enjoy so you can build habit change within their lives and they're no longer intimidated or scared by fitness or physical activity, but they actually look forward to it and start integrating it into the other parts of their lives as well. Zac: Yeah, I can't agree more, and hearing that as a trainer should excite you because I think we do spend so much time, effort, energy, learning the training side of things to the nth degree of depth. No one gives a shit about that if they don't like you, so that's why I think what you offer is so essential in that regard. I think that the personality tests that you utilize is probably an easy barrier to entry for someone who wants to expand on their communication skills with others. The DISC Personality Test So why don't you talk to us a little bit about the DISC. I know that's one of your initial intake things that you utilize. Tell me a little bit about what the letters are about, how you use that to inform your decision making in terms of what people need to speed up their systems and how that's useful to help someone from a communication standpoint. Kyle: Yeah, in a broad sense the DISC is definitely my weapon of choice and most people, once they get their report back, are extremely surprised at just how accurate it is. There are four archetypes: D: Dominance I: Influence S: Steadiness C: Conscientiousness The D and the I are more extroverted archetypes and the S and the C are more introverted. The D and the C are more analytical archetypes and the I and the S are more novelty-based. Based off of those two things, I actually don't dive super deep into it with trainers because a lot of them aren't going to be running the DISC itself on their client bases. It's more so, if we can get even a fairly superficial view of what the archetypes prefer from a communication and environmental standpoint, and how to identify them and the people just through how they interact with their own environments. They're going to have enough strategies at that point to have a more efficient and effective conversation. I don't think everyone who takes this needs to become a psychologist. I'm definitely not one but I do think it's very similar to a movement assessment. We go to a movement assessment and we start analyzing gait and then we're walking down the street and everybody in front of us, everybody we see, has a hip shift or internal rotation or their pronating, There's a winged scap here, an elevated shoulder blade here and we're just picking all these things out and we really can't turn it off. With that, there's going to be a lot of different interventions that we might be able to use. The DISC is very similar. You can go into a room and see where people are positioned within that room and how their interacting with the other people in that room and have a pretty good idea of what archetype they are. From there you can start building out communication strategies if that is somebody that you want to communicate with. [caption id="attachment_9611" align="alignnone" width="810"] Tell me again about that time you couldn't bench press the bar.[/caption] “D” archetypes are usually found in leadership positions because they're naturally drawn to leadership and not everybody is. They are very analytical, but they're also fairly dopaminergic in the fact that they want challenge and they want to win a lot of the time. They sometimes push and rush through things in order to get to the end of the project. You can find them in a room fairly easy because they're extroverted and they'll usually be in the middle of the room, dominating conversation. They like to challenge ideas but they are people that you really have to provide evidence to if you've got ideas or something to bring up. They are people that like to win more than be right a lot of the times, so arguing with them is typically not something that is going to yield return for any of the other archetypes. “I” archetypes are very novelty-based, they're very extroverted. They're usually the life of the party. They like to be the center of attention and they like to be entertained and they like to entertain, in that respect. And if you're training an I, a linear program where they're isolated in a corner of a room, using maybe one modality for an extended period of time, is not going to be something that works well for them. They're going to get bored very quickly so you can set up your programming and your periodization around that archetype and that personality type to keep them engaged with the program. They're a little harder to train because you have to look at their needs based on the assessment and look at their goals. You have to implement enough exercise selection variation while still trying to accommodate the same outcomes throughout their programming to keep them entertained and keep them happy, which is not always an easy task to do because we're trainers. , reps are everything. If you want to get good at something, you have to practice, you have to repeat it, you have to be able to scale it with progressions and regressions while you got somebody who gets really bored really easily, you might never get to all the reps needed to actually see the outcomes you want because they're off doing boutique fitness or spin class. The way you also approach the different archetypes with praise and feedback is very important because everybody likes feedback but not everybody likes public praise. Some people get very embarrassed by it so you also want to make sure that people are very comfortable with how you're communicating with them from that respect. An “I” wants you to throw a parade for them every time they accomplish a new metric or hit a new goal of some sort. They want everybody in the room to know it and that's great. An “S”, the next one down the line, they just want a fist bump and to move on. They're more novelty-based, but they're also more introverted so they want to be engaged, they want a little bit of structure, little bit of uniformity, but they also want room to work within that structure, a little bit of autonomy. Again, you're going to program an “S” different, you're going to manage them differently from a management leadership standpoint because they love feedback but they have a hard time asking for it. If they feel like they are appreciated within a company or within a client-trainer relationship, they're going to work as hard as they can to make everybody happy. They're very much pleasers, they're people that usually work in service. A lot of trainers are “S's” and if they didn't love fitness, they would probably be teachers or nurses or something of that nature because that's what their archetype is typically drawn to outside of fitness. If they're not getting the feedback and the appreciation, they really withdraw within a company. They're not going to cause conflict or friction within a company, they're just going to become disengaged and apathetic which is just as bad. I think we've all seen that happen in clients before, if they're not getting the feedback and they just become disengaged and apathetic to not only the program but maybe the trainer. They move on, they're either moving on to a new trainer or maybe they're just out of fitness. They had a bad experience and now they're intimidated by it and they're done with it. Then you've got your “C's”. “C's” are very analytical. They're the people that come to every conversation or every Facebook thread with five Pubmed articles ready to cut and paste into a conversation and link to. , they're the science-based. They want everything backed up, but the problem is sometimes they don't get anything done because they're too busy researching. There's never enough information, so they end up paralysis by analysis. They're also a very introverted and analytical archetype, and when you're talking about training them, that's where a linear program works really well. They have the patience to look at change over time and they don't want to skew the variables. They think novelty is distracting and chaotic and frustrating. So they're the people that, yeah, we're going to do barbell workouts for the next eight weeks and we're going to look at your percentage maxes, and we're going to look at bar speed. You can bring data and analytics anywhere into a session, they're the people that are actually going to be interested in it. There's definitely different communication strategies and different ways that you can implement environment and communication into training when you're working with those people as well. From a manager perspective it's all about utilizing their strengths and putting them in positions to succeed and then offering support in the way that they actually want support. Because what might feel like a nice structured environment for a “C” or an “S” is going to feel like micromanaging to an “I.” So  when to push the gas and pull the brakes a little bit for a lot of these people. And then how to get the feedback that's actually going to promote progress rather than maybe too much reflection and frustration. It's definitely something that I use a lot and that I think the people that I work with find very applicable to the demographics that they work either as a manager with their employees or a trainer with their client base. Using Personality Testing to Build Systems Zac: It sounds like the DISC allows you to stratify how you want to interact and manage specific people, and just the little bit that I have learned from yourself and just some of the stuff that Lucy has told me has been very informative about just why people are the way they are, and it is pretty crazy how accurate it is. Let's say that we have the fam. The fam is listening, they fill out the DISC, and they find out which archetype they are or the mix of these specific archetypes. If they're looking at maximizing communication with others, but also they want to make themselves more organized and efficient, where do you see common pitfalls in system building? Let's say you are the one who's guiding them into becoming organized AF, where would you start with each of these people in terms of designing a system for them? Kyle: From a system perspective and from an organizational standpoint, obviously they all approach that a little differently and they all have unique pitfalls. With your “D's”, they typically are so hard-charging that they don't weigh all their options ahead of time, they don't look at return, and they don't look at cost as much as maybe they should. They have a little bit of the shiny object syndrome that you also see with “I's”, but they will drive harder for it and they will be more focused on it. They'll leave everything else on the back burner, they're very prone to specificity and thought. A lot of that with them is making sure from an organizational standpoint that they dedicate enough times to the other things to keep them on track and don't just let those things fall behind. None of us live in a specific environment where, from a demand standpoint, we can chase one thing over all others without incurring a cost of some sort. [caption id="attachment_9612" align="alignnone" width="810"] Put that shit on front burner, fam[/caption] From a systems perspective, we do a lot of OKRs with everybody, but how they interpret those strategies are going to be different given calendar work, making things automated, which works well for “D's”. Automation is a good way to make sure that things get sent out, whether it's newsletters or whether it's reminders, calendar events, things of that nature. Those are going to be very effective for programs potentially for their clients from a trainer perspective. Those are going to be good ways to keep them on track without having to always lose their focus as well. The positive aspects of a “D” are that they are so hyper-focused. If something is important, they'll get it done and they'll work really hard towards that. You also don't want to take away that driver, you want to find ways to accommodate it and support it with other means so automation works really well for them. Objectives and Key Results (OKRs) Zac: Quick question, you mentioned OKR, I don't think we defined what that is. What is an OKR? Kyle: Objectives and key results. Simultaneously, we're learning about the DISC when we're working with people. They're also filling out OKRs, which I usually keep it to three objectives. I tend to find that if there's more than three, they're not necessarily big rocks anymore. So people will have two to three main primary objectives that they want to work on either from a professional or from an individual lifestyle standpoint. People I work with will put things that relate to obviously their business, and their finances, and their professional accomplishment but they'll also put how to free up more time for their families. They'll put fitness goals on there and that's fine. I'm not judging what your objectives are, I just want to make sure that we actually set up an intelligent strategy or system to get there. So we identify the objectives and then we identify three key results from each of those objectives. The key results are the outcomes and how I work with outcomes of people is identifying what their definition of success for those objectives actually is on an individual standpoint. So we look at it, if it's quantitative, we look at metrics. If it's qualitative, we look at it emotionally. How do you want to feel, ? What's this going to lead to? What's this going to free time up for? From a quantitative standpoint, it could be anything. It could be money, it could be weight, pounds lost, it could be whatever. Metrics are super easy to work with, qualitative aspects are a little harder. So we have to be really honest and dig deep into those. Within these, most people will fill them out and they'll inherently be very vague or very general about their key results so I always have the question that just get as detailed as possible. Like, we'll talk about them and people will break into more detail and conversation. One of my big cues for people is to literally talk it out and then write down what you say. Speak it because you're inherently going to tell a story rather than having to write something down, and you're going to have more detail in the way you explain it than how you write it typically. That's usually how I get people to dig deeper and actually define success in a way that we might be able to measure. Then we set up strategies for all of those key results. The strategies are going to match the archetypes in a way because there's probably going to be things that those people naturally tend to lack. From a system standpoint, it's great because I usually don't have to identify systems for people, they can really look at what they're doing and what they're not doing and they identify them themselves which tends to lead to much more adherence than me telling them what to do. From another standpoint, it's a lot of me helping them understand and come to that realization themselves. “Oh, maybe I should start automating things or putting more things into my calendar, setting up backend sales leads or formals or whatever, building up more spreadsheets for tracking and automating my payroll!” There's a lot of things that as we're going through this and they're looking at strategies, like, “Oh yeah, I'm not sure why I ever thought about that,” but it is. Think about it because, from a coherent standpoint, they're usually looking in the other direction. There's a lot of realization typically with that and then we try to map it out, we look at it what actions they can take from a weekly, monthly, quarterly, and annual standpoint to get these things done and how the best way to track them is. Whether it's through channels regarding organization or structuring within their company or business if they're trainers. Zac: If someone comes to the conclusion themselves, they're more likely to execute it as opposed to being told what to do. Can you just give me an example of a typical objective and then the key results you might get from someone, from one of your clients. And let's keep it from an organizational standpoint. Kyle: If I'm looking at trainers, it's increasing their client base, say getting two new clients. From a key results standpoint, that's going to lead to X amount more money. That's maybe even going to lead to upping your price and dropping a lower paying client in some cases. That's going to lead to some financial goal of moving —  for people, the key results will differ a lot — that might lead to being able to live in a different apartment if you're in New York city or living in a different neighborhood where you no longer have to commute thirty or forty-five minutes into the city. [caption id="attachment_9613" align="alignnone" width="810"] While cool to visit, these problems are another reason I'm thankful I didn't move to the city.[/caption] The key results are very individualistic. If you want to make more money, how much more money? We're going to identify what clients are going to bring in. Maybe, fifteen hundred dollars a month? That's how we're going to track it so if we're going to look at strategies, what's the timeline we're going to put on this? Two new clients by when? Two months, so we're looking at a client a month. What steps are we going to take from a marketing perspective, are we going to look at referrals? Are we going to look at communicating with other scopes of practice for referrals? You can look at client streams and you can look at, maybe  a physical therapy team in the city that you can go and talk to and look at as being their third-party outlet for training after someone is done rehabbing. Maybe you can talk to a massage therapist and look at them or a nutritionist, same thing, and build an actual team of practitioners that you might be able to be a part of where you can share clients and build referral networks and things of that nature. There's a lot of different avenues from a strategy perspective that we can start looking at. Maybe you're going to email all of your old clients that you've lost or call them. Depending on the trainer there's going to be different avenues there. Another thing that I get with a lot of people is building up additional streams of revenue. Not everybody wants to take on more clients because that's more time training, you want something that might be more passive, so we work on building up their remote business or we work on building semi-private training channels where they can train more people with one hour and work more efficiently. Then we set up the strategies to utilize that to lower price points. So who can we reach out to that maybe fell off one on one training because they either moved or the price point was no longer agreeable with their budget? Are there options for them? Can we start reaching out to those people? How do you market yourself? Are you looking through social media? Are you building up newsletters? There's a lot of different options from that perspective but we start looking at things that would actually fit their skill set and options they may have. Then we start setting timelines and scheduling out those things from an organizational standpoint. Zac: Essentially what you're doing is you use the objectives and key results as your skeleton, and then you are helping your clients build the rest of that out by having them figure out what type of systems need to be employed, and then taking into account their personality in terms of potential pitfalls they may have in building the system so they ultimately get the outcome that they want. Kyle: Yeah. If you look at OKRs, it's very conceptual and then the individual looks at it very contextual from a key result standpoint. Then strategies are going to be all your applications, so it really goes conceptually, contextually, and then applicably down the line. The objectives are usually pretty broad and then the key results we try to individualize as much as possible like I said, either qualitatively or quantitatively, depending on what that objective is. Then from a strategy standpoint, then it's all application based on their environment, their past, their unique circumstance, and their archetype, how can we build out strategies that are going to be beneficial for you and not have a high cost but a high return instead. Zac: Sounds very systematic, Kyle. Kyle: That's the idea. The pitfalls of personality types Zac: Let's go back to the four personality types and pitfalls. We went through “D,” which is dominant. The big thing they probably need to focus on is automation as well as looking at problems more in-depth so they don't do something with a huge cost. I got like a little hint of “D,” and the automation thing has been huge for me. I mean I automate just about everything from a blog perspective, emails, everything because it takes too much time if you don't do that. But what about, say, someone who's an “I” and then “S” and “C?” Let's go into the pitfalls of those three would have. Kyle: An “I” is usually the archetype that has the most trouble with any organization at all. They're sometimes described as chaotic in nature, where they thrive in environment with a lot of novelties. So because of that, familiarity becomes boring and organization is a way to increase familiarity with your environment. An “I” is typically are a little organizationally adverse. I work with them on minimal effective dose. How can we implement just enough organization within your life that you're able to get things done when you need to get them done but not overwhelm you into an adaptive quality. We don't want to turn you into a “C.” Automation also works really well with them, but it's also prioritizing what they actually need to organize. For them, developing hierarchies within their lives is very important. Like what are we going to prioritize based on your needs and wants from a lifestyle professional standpoint. A lot of it with them is laying out an awareness perspective: What is going to have the highest return? What is the most important? And what to focus on because focus is limited, it's a limited individual quality for them. Then we're going to automate the rest as much as possible. We're going to set alerts on everything that's important from a calendar standpoint, or a note standpoint, whatever. We're going to set deadlines for people, as they don't do well without a structured deadline. They won't create a deadline for themselves usually. They're people that need more ownership and accountability within their own personal frames. As I'm looking in OKRs and strategies, the way it works out on the form that I use is you essentially have three objectives and within each objective you have three key results potentially. Within each key result, you have three unique strategies that you might be able to employ. So you got an option of 27 different strategies at the end of this thing. I may be going to be doing one or two of those at any given time effectively. So it's looking at which strategies can we even implement that are going to have the biggest bang for buck. Can we find strategies that are going to positively affect any of the other outcomes that we're looking at? It's either, you're looking at low hanging fruit things that are easy depending on the person's lifestyle or you're looking at more of a bang for buck strategy that might positively impact additional strategies. The reason is especially we're looking at objectives and some of those key results for just a little bit of crossover within the process for people. Zac: Setting up a lot of the exact systems that you're talking about has been essential for myself as an “I”. So then, what about the “S” and the “C” in terms of their common pitfalls and where you work with those types of people? Kyle: “C's” need a lot of structure. They're pleasers by nature and they tend to put their own needs behind the needs of others, and they'll let a lot of their own personal growth go to the wayside a lot of the times and be over accommodating to the people they're working with or to the clients they're working with. It's, again, a lot of structure. They do well typically with full calendar setups with task lists, things of that nature, but you also want to give them a little bit autonomy, so there has to be some flexibility in there as well. So doing a very good job of balancing the needs and the wants works very well for them. [caption id="attachment_9614" align="alignnone" width="810"] Such a delicate balance indeed.[/caption] With them from an objective standpoint, I always try to have at least one lifestyle objective that  coheres with their professional objectives as well and making sure that those things both professionally and lifestyle wise, respectively, have a lot of coherence and alignment. If they're not aligned, neither one of them is going to get done and that's going to lead to a lot of frustration and withdrawal within the systems. From a communication standpoint as well, because they're so accommodating, try to also, again, prioritize their personal needs and make sure that they feel heard throughout the process and throughout whatever environment they're in relationship wise either with clients or their employers or employees or peers. , working on getting them a voice within that community as well in an outlet of sorts. Zac: It seems like the common trend is you're still getting all of them, and we haven't even talked about “S” yet so maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like the trend with all these is you're still getting them to a similar point of having a goal in mind or an outcome they desire and then setting up systems whether its automated or whether it's a calendar of some sort to help them keep them on task essentially. Kyle: What you find is “D's” and “I's” have no problem outlining outcomes and key results but they typically try to go into action without setting strategies. And then you've got “C's” and “S's” will typically strategize quite a bit but it's hard to push them into actual action. So you prioritize those things differently depending on what side of the line they are from an archetype standpoint. Zac: Gotcha. So ”D's” and “I's” are great at figuring out what the outcome is, but take a terrible, inefficient path to get there. Kyle: Sometimes, yeah. Zac: Yeah, “S's” and “C's” take a beautiful path but to where? Who knows. Kyle: Yeah, they might just be spinning in circles. Zac: Tell me about the “S” then. What are some of the pitfalls that they have in terms of building out those systems? Kyle: ”C's” and “S's” are very similar in the fact that they have no problem building out strategies and building out systems. I'm the one who's the “CS” hybrid, so speaking about myself is a good example. I have excel sheets that I've created that I'll never use like it's a hobby of mine to build out systems that aren't really needed in any way. It's sometimes as a distraction of actually going to work and doing things, of being in action. From a strategy standpoint, a lot of “C's” and “S's” lump together, and “S's” especially must cut down on the strategies and figuring out which ones are going to be the most important for them because rather than getting distracted by all the potential outcomes, they're getting distracted by the strategies themselves. That's where that whole analysis by paralysis comes about with is. They're just going to keep doing research, keep building out models, and some of these things but they never actually take action. So they must set timelines. Once a system with an objective is built, let's put a timeline on it. How do we keep you accountable to a timeline? Because otherwise they will stall themselves by doing more research or building out more spreadsheets so it's when can we take action? It's then more of a time push than anything else. How to navigate going off task Zac: Then as you progress and work with these people, because it seems like you have to instill new habits with everyone and, as we all know, old habits die hard, sometimes we falter back into our own, I don't want to say bad habits but maybe, habits that aren't going to push you towards your goals. How do you instill coming back to these when someone does falter? So me for example, I'm pretty good at staying on task for most things but I definitely do find myself sometimes procrastinating or doing something that's going to be more ineffective towards me getting my stuff completed, so what things do you use to cue them back into getting back into the system when they do fall off the wagon? Kyle: Well the good thing is as we go through the DISC itself, is it's usually creates enough self-awareness that they know when they're fallen off the wagon. They're very aware of that fact. With both the consulting I do and the mentorship that I do, I'm on the phone or I'm on a Zoom video with them every week so we're always rehashing what their weaknesses would look like, what their OKR and development progress looks like. We also build out models, like actual business and training models, how that's going? I share everything through Google Drive so I can see live what's being worked on, when it's being worked on. If I see that their OKRs haven't been touched in two weeks or three weeks, we're going to go back and ask why. That's the good thing about some of those shared documents, is there's built in accountability within that. They know what I'm going to ask when we're on the phone. They know the structure of the conversation is going to be. We spend a lot of time talking about the DISC upfront then we eventually move into OKRs and auto-development and anything else that might've pop up within their lives or work environment that they want to talk about. I don't necessarily have to pull them back on track because within the first few weeks, they have enough self-awareness within their archetype, within their organizational needs and structural needs that they know if they fall off track and they'll usually actually bring that up before I get a chance to. Then we just talk about why. And the biggest thing that I work with all of the archetypes, regardless of who they are, is letting know that that's okay. At the end of the day, these are all tools that are going to be used to help them and we're all going to go about it in different ways. Whether we're talking about weekly progress or monthly progress, it's still progress. They're still doing things much differently than they would've done in the past and they're having good positive outcomes based on that. Some of the archetypes like a little more accountability from me. Particularly usually the “D's” and the “C's” prefer that I hold them a little more accountable. Whereas the “I's” and the “S's”, I need to handle a little differently with my communication and make sure that they understand that I'm empathic to what's going on within their lives and within their work environments. From a time perspective, they might not have gotten it done, so we decide to set up ways that we can work through the next week a little more efficiently. We look at what those pitfalls were in the prior week and we try to find out ways to work around them in the week upcoming. Were those pitfalls novel and acute? Was something where you got sick or you had to take your dog to the vet or your kid had multiple school events or sports events? Or was it something that's going to be more global that's going to be happening every single week that we really have to be adjusting for within our strategy? Identifying whether or not it was a one off thing or whether it's going to be continuous is also a big part of that conversation. Zac: Essentially what you're acting as when you're setting this up is some form of social support. Kyle:There's a lot of that. [caption id="attachment_9615" align="alignnone" width="810"] Team work makes the dream work.[/caption] Zac: You're lauded if you are someone who is considered self-made and really, no one is self-made. I mean, people think that I'm doing fairly good things, but we wouldn't even be having this conversation, Kyle, if it weren't for someone like Bill Hartman in my life or other people in my life who have pushed me into such a high esteem and high level and high drive. I think that even someone maybe on the “D” and “I” side of things, they tend to think of pushing others by the wayside because sometimes I do that. I think that having someone not necessarily to hold you accountable but just to be there with you as you're going through the process and keep you on track is just absolutely critical. And I think it's awesome that you're doing that. Kyle: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of that, and the good thing about my career path with a lot of the people I work with is, I've been in a role that they're in or a very similar to for most of them as far as being a trainer, being a manager, being a multi-location manager to being a department head to being in a national level position. There's a lot of things that I've done in that respect where I can sympathize and empathize a lot with the needs that they're seeing and give them some usually pretty good real world advice with that as well, especially from a management leadership perspective if they're a gym owner. I haven't owned my own gym but I do know the things that go into running a space and managing a team and handling the daily operations. From a trainer, same thing, I've done two hundred sessions a month as a trainer. I've lived that seven-day-a-week life and the three thirty alarm going off in the morning and working till eight pm at night. I've lived a lot of the struggles that they're going through. And can look back on it  with a hindsight eye of understanding the things that might help them that I never had access to when I was in those roles and work with them from both from an archetype standpoint but also from an experiential standpoint. Organizational tools Zac: Now, we've discussed overarching principles on how you build out these systems, you have your OKRs, and building their systems in such a manner that you can get the outcomes that they want. Let's get into some specifics, what type of things and I mean we can get into software, we can talk if you're using paper, what type of things have you found most successful? It can be apps, it can be anything from organizational standpoint that you tried to employ with the people that you work with? Do you use google calendar, do you use iPhone calendar? What we got? Kyle: With a lot of my clients, I try not to task them with a lot of apps. I try to keep everything as a one stop shop, so I just use Google Drive for the majority of them. For one, it's a free service and that's something that I think is important for a lot of my clients. A lot of them don't actually understand all the functions that Drive has. Like, if you have the Gmail, you have a calendar, you have spreadsheets, you have Word Docs, you have Google Forms, you have things that you can set up and send to clients. You've got Keynote and some of those other aspects as far as setting presentations. You've got a lot of tools that you would need already at your fingertips, you just haven't started using them yet. What I usually work with them on is first making sure their calendar is always up to date, that they have as many things recurring as possible within that calendar. They have alerts set if needed. They're added the event participants respective to the event. From there they can identify what might be flexible and what might be inflexible from an event perspective. What can I move and how can I move it? Then we can also add all of the one-off things that go throughout the continuous events. If you've got new clients coming in, if you've got different meeting being set up you could start identifying where you can put those within your calendar as it stands on a weekly basis. Then from a Drive perspective, it's all about building out folders, it might be built around your objectives or it might be built around other things, but you're segmenting your business through revenue streams or departments, whatever it may be. And making sure that you have all the materials needed set up within those folders and you have the ability to share them with employees or with clients. If you're a trainer, it might be all your training templates. It might be all the data that you record from a biometric standpoint. Your folders might all just be your client names, you've got your templates, you've got your materials in there. I use the google forms a lot, my intake forms are all on them as well because I can send them via email so that's another thing from an intake perspective. You can build out PAR-Q's and intake forms on there to send to your clients ahead of time. You can build out feedback forms and daily questionnaires for clients. If I'm doing consulting within a staff, I can also look at analytics based on the questions that I'm asking. Within those forms, I use a lot of numbered rating systems so I can actually look at analytics based on a number scale or numerical scale as well over an entire staff. If we're talking about culture or leadership or things of that nature. A lot of what I use with people is Google. Instead of Survey Chimp, I use Google Forms. They'll have some app within their system that somehow matches the needs of whoever I'm working with and it does it for free. It does it all in one spot. If you have the Google Suite, it's even that much easier to utilize. From an app perspective, that's how I set up all my materials. I build out the majority of my own and it's all just shareable at that point so I can copy and share and create for all the people I'm working with. Zac: In terms of automation on Google, say you have client so and so, can you automate it in a manner that all your intakes and all of that will automatically go to a folder on Google? Specifically to that person or do they have to fill out the form and you're transposing it into that? Kyle: You can do it one of two ways, you can automate towards where the forms actually will go into that client's folder or you can keep all the forms together in one spot to look at analytics. So you can do it a couple different ways and that's different people are going to have different preferences and different purposes regarding that. When I look at my intake form, I will basically have just an original copy that I'll copy and create another one for the individual themselves that will live inside their folder once I send it and they fill it out. For a lot of my consulting and feedback forms, I'll keep them all together as one form where I can keep multiple responses at once and then look at analytics based on answers. So depending on the purpose, you can do either one of them. Zac: I'm transitioning over to Google because I've had too many steps with transmitting information from one place to the next. I'll give you an example of my current set up. Someone sends a Google Form to me and they want to work with me. They will go into the form and it's just the whole analytical side of things where you can compare answers and whatnot, I'll have my virtual assistant send that person an inquiry via email but it's the answer via email as opposed to a Google Form. Then what I have to do is take those answers, because I can't read it on Excel, because Excel is just atrocious for that. I have to put it in Evernote, read it on Evernote, and then I will summarize within the Excel. It's just too many steps but it sounds as though, if you keep things in one place, you can keep things automated as much as possible and under one platform, it just tends to make life that much simpler. Kyle: Yeah, it's just less tabs. It's less copy and pasting, it's less transfiguring and reconfiguring from a data standpoint. And you've got everything in one hand especially when you look at different archetypes. The more you can keep things together and the less different avenues they have to continuously click on, the better off they're going to be from a distraction standpoint. It also keeps everything on top aligned, to keep it all together in that manner. Zac: Yeah, that's really cool. I think you've officially sold me. I'm making the transition to the Google so thank you. Kyle: They're going to send me some money when they see this. It's going to be great. Zac: Yeah, they already put it into our brains somehow that we were going to transfer all things. Kyle: You're going to see a bunch of Facebook ads for Google and all kinds of things. [caption id="attachment_9616" align="alignnone" width="810"] Once Google changes their name to Skynet that's when you'll know.[/caption] Zac: Google and Compound Performance that's all it's going to be. Interesting side note, did you know on your phone there's an option that they will mark advertising for you automatically, and you can eliminate that. Yeah, I'll link this in the show notes too but I don't know if you went to check out that whole set up your phone for success thing. Kyle: No, I haven't read it yet. It is sitting in my inbox though. Zac: Man, life changing. Kyle: I'm on your newsletter, believe me. Zac: I know, I know you are, Kyle. But I'll link that. But there is an option somewhere in the settings in the iPhone where it says, “Yes, you can advertise to..” or “I can take your data and advertise it to whatever sites.” So you have to wonder, why is it that I look up leg lamps to buy someone for Christmas and all of a sudden I see leg lamps all over Facebook and Google and everything? And that's why. Kyle: Well, my wife and I will have conversations about something verbally. Like we might start talking about rugs, something like super boring in that regard, and I'll start looking on my Facebook and Instagram. I'll literally get rug adverts after advert for the next two weeks. It's like this is insane. Especially if you talk about that brand, that brand is going to be there. You don't even have to type it or look it up, you can just talk about it. That microphone is always on. You need a tin foil hat. Zac: A tin foil hat and move out into the wilderness. That's the only way you can circumvent Facebook and Google and all of them. Kyle: Live that Ben House lifestyle, except cut off the phone too. Build your model Zac: Are there any other systems or nitty gritty tech that you like to use before I go into another follow up question? Kyle: Yeah, the thing that I think I actually like a lot more and has been more meaningful for a lot of my clients is developing a model that's based more so on experience, both the client and the trainers rather than methodologies. Especially for a training perspective is identifying what you want that client to feel and experience through each part of your training or their training life, their training program rather than just identifying how you're going to train them. Methodologies are going to change. We're all doing X now, but we were all doing something differently two or three years ago. It's pretty naive to think that we're still going to be doing the same thing we're doing now in the next six months even. The industry and the information changes so quickly. When I'm working with trainers, a lot of them tend to be very biased to one methodology or ideology over another and they like to talk in those terms. They have a hard time relating things to terms that clients will understand but they also have a hard time understand what that client preference might be and what they want their experience to be during session. I look at everything from a consult intake to the actual training session itself, movement prep, neural prep, strength training, accessory training, to aerobics and cool down to the macro-cycling of anaerobic and aerobic training and then to their lifestyle coherence and communication. What do you want that client to feel from an emotional perspective? What's your outcome for each of those things and then what are the outcomes that you're looking for as a trainer? Can we get alignment between those two things? If we can get alignment between those two things, you're going to have a client that's pretty happy. Or a client base or demographic that's pretty happy. That's the other big thing, the other big rock, that starts people off once we start getting comfortable with the OKRs, we start talking about the actual model itself and it can be easily modified into a company thing. What is your business model? How do you want your entire demographic to look like from a training perspective? To a personal training model and looking at the individual experience for clients as well. That's also the big thing that I think has been eye opening to a lot of the people that I'm working with, is not deciding how you're going to train people but also identifying how you're going to treat people and how you want them to perceive what that training actually is. What's that outcome? Not just talking about increasing internal rotation to a femur, we're talking about their actual enjoyment of the process itself. Zac: Just me setting up Human Matrix has given me an idea in terms of setting up models. I think in some of that other areas that you've mentioned in terms of creating a good experience or just giving a business model. Those are areas that I haven't done but I think would be incredibly impactful. When you're having people set up these models, is there a preference? Or are you using this in organization in anyway of using the good old paper? Kyle: Well, I've got a template that I created that I help people set up. I've got, again, a base skeleton of the things I consider important but they have the option as well of adding additional columns or rows off of that template based on things that might apply to them individually and their businesses individually. I've got a base template that they all have their own copies, we share and we look at it. They can also modify it or I can modify it for them based on any changes or things that they want to prioritize within their own business. In addition, my columns are methodology kind experience and trainer outcomes. Different people are going to add an additional column or add additional rows based on how they communicate with people whether it's both in person and you're looking at actual like how are you communication, how are you greeting people, how are you greeting them at the door, how are you communicating with them, how are you cueing them, internal and external cues, hands-on and hands-off cuing, and then how are you communicating with them from a newsletter standpoint, from an educational standpoint, and then from an email, texting standpoint, calling standpoint, feedback forms, whatever. There're also ways that we can start including those within that process as well from an experiential standpoint. Zac: Essentially automating everything within the model just like you did with making processes. Kyle: Yeah, and identifying what that actually means. If you're sending feedback forms, what do you want that client to think? What's the reaction that you want them to have? Are they going to just discard it? Or are they going to feel like you're trusting them and valuing their opinion to improve the actual culture of the company? So what actual emotional outcome are you looking for and how can we generate that outcome through the process? Or through the environment itself as a whole? The To-do list Zac: To-do lists. Yay or nay? Kyle: It depends, as everything does. Zac: Always a default answer. Kyle: I think they can become very valuable but I think they can also become very encapsulating. In that sense, if you're a “C” that already lives on to-do lists, you probably don't need to make anymore. You probably just need to prioritize and act on the top two or three things on that list. If you're an “I” and there's really not a lot of rhyme or reason to what you're doing and then you're just chasing novelty all day long then the to do list is going to be very important for you. That might help you obtain a singular focus on the things that you actually need to be doing on a daily basis or weekly basis. Depending on who the person is, I think those are going to be great. If somebody is already super analytical, you're just getting one more thing to feed on that's going to delay the actual action and outcome that they're seeking. So it might be a deterrent at that point, depending on who they are. Zac: I think one thing I found for myself for the to do list is if you don't prioritize the right things and there's no temporal component, it's pretty much a useless piece of... [caption id="attachment_9617" align="alignnone" width="810"] I'm biased, but I loathe these things.[/caption] Kyle: You'll get this inception moment where you've got to-do lists on top of other to-do lists. That's like what a “C” would do and it's sometimes even a “D.” You've got a to-do list that lists out doing another to do list. It's like the guy looking at himself in the mi

Gary Myers: Hi, my name is Gary Myers. Joe Fontenot: I'm Joe Fontenot. This is the Answering The Call podcast. This is the podcast where we talk to people who are answering God's call. Today's guest is Kyle Beshears. Kyle talks about a new word, new word to me at least. Kyle was here at the Defend Conference, and the word he taught me was apatheism. Gary: Apatheism? Joe: Apatheism. Gary: That's a new one on me as well. Joe: It is, it's not fruit, it's something else, which he's going to tell us about now. Gary: Let's hear from Kyle. Joe: Okay, so Kyle you've said something that doesn't get said often and it's called apatheism. In some ways we can guess what it's about, but I think your explanation is much more helpful. What is apatheism? Kyle Beshears: Yeah, the word's a bit intuitive. You can parse two words out of there, apathy and theism, a clever way of trying to describe a feeling of indifference towards questions related to God's existence is how I would initially define apatheism. There's a ... I don't know how to describe it, the-ism we think has to do with the way we think, right? Kyle Beshears: It's a belief, it's cognitive, but I think apatheism affects our heart as well, and how we feel, our emotions. Apatheism is not just finding questions related to God's existence intellectually or being apathetic to them intellectually, it's also an affective reaction to questions about God. I might define apatheism as when a person believes questions about God are unimportant and they feel that way as well. It's both a belief and a feeling. Joe: Okay, so let's work that out. Like a role-play, right? Your apatheist, I am me, and I say, "Kyle, I would like to talk to you about God." What do you say? How do you act? Kyle: Well me personally I would be polite, but to have the conversation ... Joe: A kind apatheist. Kyle: Yeah, yeah, you seem like a nice guy Joe, but in reality I really don't want to have this conversation. I find it as uninteresting as arguing over whether or not Pepsi is to be preferred to Coca-Cola, right? It's just not an interesting conversation to me. Joe: It's sort of irrelevant. Kyle: Irrelevant, yeah, I don't find that God affects my life, my relationships, my future, and I don't think ... Maybe he affects you in a personal way, but that's that's you, that's idiosyncrasy, that's unique to each person. To me, I don't care. Joe: Do you think it's a generational thing? Kyle: Thinking through it, I think it's probably more prevalent in younger generations, so millennial's and younger. I've just been reclassified as zenial, so I guess we're in between generation Y and the millennial's. Joe: Okay. Kyle: I think probably you're starting to see it in Y, in zenial's, millennial's, and whoever comes next. I don't think it would be fair to assign apatheism to just younger generations. I think you see wherever there is a decrease in religious attendance and church services, wherever you see an increase in religious un-affiliation, I think you'll find apatheism there. Kyle: Apatheism may even be ... You might be able to find apatheism more geographically that generationally, right? Pockets in the Northeast in the United States, Western Europe, Canada, I think you'll find that apatheism is more prevalent with those people than in say southeastern United States or majority world contexts like South America and Africa where church is growing, you'll find a complete opposite. Joe: Where do you think apatheism comes from or what causes it? Is there an easy answer for that? Kyle: No, I don't think there's an easy answer for that. I think you can trace the beginnings of apatheism maybe as far back as pre-Socratic thinkers. You have this movement in ancient Greece where some philosophers are starting to move away from polytheism and they're moving towards this ... It's not monotheism, but it's God is everything and God is fate, right? Kyle: The problems you're having with your crops or your relationships or your wealth are not because of fickle gods, it's because of fate, so why should you care about the gods? You see an apathy towards the comings and goings of the gods, but it's not replaced with the apatheism we experience. Their apathy was a virtue like you come to just recognize that you can't control fate. Kyle: The moment you truly understand that, you'll find bliss, you'll find happiness. I think the kind of apatheism we experience today starts to rise in the Enlightenment period where people are rejecting Christian theism in exchange for agnosticism, which is we can't know if God exists. Deism, which means a God exists, but he or it doesn't really have any direct impact on our daily lives. Joe: Set it and forget it thing. Kyle: That's right, yeah, the popular phrase is the absentee landlord. Atheism, no, I'm unconvinced that God exists, right? There's this a line from one of those Enlightenment era atheists named Denise Diderot. I'm going to pull it up real quick. Sorry, you'll have to edit this part. Joe: No, it's okay, we don't edit, this will all be in there. Kyle: Oh, okay, great. Joe: They're listening to us right now. Kyle: Good, good, so Denise Diderot, famous Enlightenment atheist thinker, and he distills apatheism in his time in this one sentence. He says, "It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all," right? If you don't know much about hemlock, you should not put that on your tacos. Joe: That's the stuff that kills you. Kyle: It will kill you, yeah. Joe: Painfully. Kyle: Hemlock and parsley look similar, right? Diderot is saying it's more important that you discern between what can go on a salad and what will kill you than warrior fret about whether or not God exists. Joe: I feel like that betrays this huge idea already that God doesn't exist. If he exists, it's more of the idea of God exists. The same emotional attachment we might have like a small kid has to a blanket, do you know what I mean? This makes me feel good, I almost feel like in once sense what he's saying is forget about the blanket, it's just a toy thing. Joe: There's real issues, something could kill you and not kill you. The irony there is that what happens when you die? It really does matter if there is a God or not. Kyle: It is deeply ironic with this question, what happens when you do mistake the hemlock for parsley and you end up dying? Joe: Right. Kyle: Well, now the question of God's existence becomes of the ultimate importance. Joe: Right. Kyle: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. How do you put apatheism on the scale with atheism? I think a lot of people know atheism, whether it's the new atheists which are angry and want to pick the fight, or whether it's just the person who says look, "I'll be honest with you, I've thought through this, I don't think God exists. I'll talk to you about it, but it's not something I talk about a lot." Joe: Then you've got this new class or this newer category, newer to me, apatheism, which is just like this is completely irrelevant. Where do you put those on a line as far as the easiest people to talk to? Kyle: Yeah, intuitively you would think apatheism has a lot to do with atheism. If you don't think God's existence is important, well then you must not believe in him. That could very well be the case for a lot of people, but actually I think there is something that an atheist and a theist has more in common than does an apatheist, and that is interest in questions relating to God's existence. Kyle: If you were to ask a Christian theist, "Do you believe God exists?" They would say, "Yes, of course I do." Then you would be able to have a conversation, "Well, what is that God like? What are the implications of that belief?" If you were to ask an atheist, "Do you believe God exists?" They would say, "Well no, I don't," and then you'd be able have a conversation. "Well, what does God's nonexistence mean," right? Kyle: Now if you were to go to apatheist and ask them, "Do you believe God exists?" They're going to shrug their shoulders and say, "I don't care." That indifference drains any conversational power out of the whole dialogue, right? They won't have the conversation with you, because they don't care to have the conversation. In one sense atheists and theists should both share a deep concern about apatheism, because both the atheists and the theists find questions relating to God's existence important, because they understand the ramifications of answering the positive, theism, or negative, atheism. Joe: That's really interesting, I never thought about that before. An atheist should be concerned about the ramifications of an apatheist. Kyle: Absolutely. Joe: Clearly a theist of the Christian should be concerned, because we want everyone to be restored to God and love God and have a happy life. The atheist should be too, tell me why. Kyle: Yeah, I mean a simple scenario, who's going to buy Richard Dawkins books, right? Let's say Richard Dawkins publishes a new book, which is a very compelling, intellectual argument against the existence of God. The people that are going to buy those books are people interested in the question of God's existence. The atheist, the theist, and even the agnostic are sitting in a room having a conversation about God, because they're all interested in whether or not he exists, and what God is like if he does, and what it means if he doesn't, or even what it means if we can't know. Kyle: The apatheist is on the opposite side of the room looking over at those three having the conversation thinking they're wasting their time, it's completely useless. Yeah, I think that should be deeply concerning to atheists and agnostics as well as theists. That maybe rounds us back to the question that you asked earlier, which of those do I find most difficult to engage with the gospel, the atheist or the apatheist? Kyle: Unequivocally, I think it's the apatheist, because at least when you're approaching atheism, you have a mutually common interest in whether or not God exists. Joe: Yes, okay, so I have a very specific question about this. I'm going to come back to that in just a second. Before I get to there, what are we talking about? Are there a lot of people that are apatheistic? How do you count, find, survey apatheistic people? Would they even care? Then how do they compare to atheists or agnostics? What's the ratio? What's the population? What are we talking about? Kyle: Yeah, this is a frustrating thing looking into apatheism. It's impossible to tell how many apatheists there are in any given culture. The reason is because if you go to polling data, so things like American Religious Value surveys or Pew Forum or Gallup that ask questions about religious identification, those pollsters do not double-click into the reasons for why people don't believe. Kyle: Very quickly we might say, "Well I know where all the apatheists are, they're in the nones, the N-O-N-E-S," right? The religiously unaffiliated, those people who when asked if they have a religious affiliation, they say, "No, none." Apatheism is not restricted to the nones, and there may be nones that are not apatheistic, right? You may just not have a religious affiliation, but it doesn't mean you don't find the question of God's existence important. Kyle: Further, to complicate matters, you can find apatheism in people who identify as a religious tradition. You can say, "I'm Jewish, I'm Christian," but they don't really care what that means. Joe: For sure, I mean, there's so many, not so many, but I already at the top of my head think of so many secular Jews who are popular in the media or whatever. I feel like in a lot of ways they don't really care. They're Jewish by culture and heritage, but not religion in the spiritual sense. Kyle: Here we're in New Orleans, I'm in Mobile in Alabama. We're in the South, the primary religious affiliation is going to be some kind of Protestantism or Catholicism, right? That doesn't necessarily mean that they care about what that means, it just means that, that's the household they grew up in, that's the tribe to which they belong. Kyle: Apatheism permeates both religious affiliation and non-religious affiliation, so it makes it very tricky to try to gauge. Joe: Where does apatheism as a proper noun end, and where does all the category, whatever you would call this, and maybe this is apatheism, all the category of say the people that come and sit in the pew, but don't do anything, do you know what I mean? They don't tithe, they're not active, they're coming for some reason, maybe it's social, maybe it's guilt, maybe it's who knows? Joe: We all know this exact group of people and they're usually a large group of people, is that apatheism? If not, is apatheism something different or more extreme maybe? Kyle: Yeah, so I think what we're walking around now is the difference between apatheism and what's called practical atheism or pragmatic atheism. Practical atheism is as old as the Bible itself. We hear Scripture lament that the fool says in his heart, there is no God. Now that doesn't mean that they were actually atheist. The fool doesn't say, "There is no God." The fool says in his heart, so there's a dissonance between what this fool believes and how this fool acts, right? Kyle: This is the height of foolishness that you believe that there is a God or you acknowledge there's a God and you recognize that the implications of God's existence affects your ethical moral behavior, but you act as if he doesn't exist. I think for a lot of our experience in the church, what we're seeing is practical atheism. Kyle: It's a profession and even maybe a vague belief of God's existence, but a refusal to recognize and act upon the implications of that belief. How that's different from apatheism, is that the apatheist doesn't care about God's existence or nonexistence, he or she could care less. The practical atheism's apathy is sympathetic, it's not real. Kyle: An apatheists apathy towards God's existence is real. To me, from my experience and my readings, this is very new. This is a very new thing in the life of the church, not one that it's had to approach perhaps ever. Joe: Yeah, you had mentioned earlier that you and Tala Anderson have written or presented a paper on this. Kyle: Yeah, that's correct, so Tala Anderson is a professor of philosophy over at Oklahoma Baptist University. He and I and a couple of other folks presented papers on apatheism at the American Academy of Religion in Denver this past November. The goal of that presentation with those papers is to define apatheism from an evangelical, Christian perspective, and then to propose ways in which we might approach it as gospel believing evangelistic, Christians who are first concerned that you don't care about God's existence. Kyle: Second, that we would like to see you come to know the Lord Jesus the way we do. Yeah, we felt it was one of these conversations that the church ought to start having, right? Especially as the United States continues to secularize in an unique way from the rest of the West. A little slower than Canada and Western Europe and a little more diverse, right? Kyle: We're seeing an increase in interest in neopaganism and the occult, which is completely unexpected. Joe: Interesting, yeah, where did that come from? Kyle: Apathy, right? Joe: Yeah. Kyle: We are secularizing in a different way, but yeah, as a challenge to the gospel, we thought it would be a wise thing to begin, at least bringing it to the public mind. Joe: Yeah, getting the word out there. Kyle: Most people experience apatheism, they know it, but they don't know it. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: Right? The second you say even the word apatheism, people go, "Oh yeah." Joe: Right. Kyle: I know exactly what you're talking about. Then it makes that thing that was intangible, tangible. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: If it's tangible, well now we can talk about it, because we can identify it, we can see it, and we can prayerfully think through how we ought to approach it. Joe: This brings me to the question, one of the questions I wanted to ask specifically was how do you start a conversation with an apatheist? An atheist, right? That's easy, there's so many entry points. It might be intimidating, but it's clear there are a lot of ways in. An apatheist says, "I don't really want to talk about this." How do we talk about something someone doesn't want to talk about? Kyle: Yeah, this is the tricky part, right? The word that's probably floating around in people's minds with a conversation like this is well that's apologetics, right? I know what I need to do, I need to go bone up on apologetic methods, arguments for God's existence. If they don't find God important, well maybe if I argue that he exists, they'll find that he's important. Kyle: Unfortunately, that presupposes something that's not there, that they're interested in having that conversation, right? Joe: Right. Kyle: I certainly don't fault people, because as creatures created in the image and likeness of God designed to have a relationship with our creator, we are by default we have interest in God's existence, right? Thinking that everybody thinks the way or feels the way we do about God is intuitive, right? Certainly, that's the model we received from Scripture thinking about the context and the time in which it was written. Kyle: Everybody thought God or gods existence is in the little g, like multiple gods, is important. We've built our apologetic models off of that, and rightly so as a biblical foundation. For example, the most famous apologetic model that's cited from the New Testament is Paul's Areopagus sermon in Acts. When he goes into Athens and he's preaching the gospel and people find it interesting, so they invite him to the Areopagus or Mars Hill in the King James. Kyle: They want him to present this new philosophy they're so unfamiliar with. As he's walking there, he passes a pantheon, so he sees a bunch of statues of gods. He notices that there's one statue to the unknown God. They are so superstitious, that they wanted to make sure they didn't offend the one god that they might not have remembered in their little collection there. Kyle: This one God is really interesting, because there's something special about him, right? He seems to proceed the other gods, there's something more powerful, more mysterious about him. Paul notices that they're very religious and he leverages that religious interest. He starts, "Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious." Kyle: He presupposes that they both share a minimally common interest in theism, even though they are polytheists and he is a Christian. At least they both think that God's existence is important. From that story we've built our apologetic methods, have we not? I mean, I find it very rare to read a book on apologetics without that model coming up. Kyle: That's so important, because it's so good, but what if we live in an Athens without a statue to the unknown God? Joe: Yeah. Kyle: What if we live in a society now where there may have been a statue to an unknown God, but it's come under disrepair for being neglected, vines are growing on it, soot, it's been chiseled away, right? People don't care about the Pantheon anymore, how could Paul have started, "Men of Athens, I see that in every way you're very religious." They would say, "What do you mean? No we're not, we don't care about what you have to say." Joe: It's like in the one hand you've got we're in a car and they're in a car. We have gas in our car and we're going north. They have gas in their car going south, and we're trying to get them to turn their wheel and come north, the right way. This new scenario that you're talking about here is like we're in a car and we're going north and they don't have any gas. Kyle: Right. Joe: It's like a totally, foundationally different issue. Kyle: That's correct, yeah, so that's why I argue that it's far more challenging to present the gospel to an apatheist than it is an atheist or an agnostic, because you are robbed of that minimally common belief. Not only are you robbed of that minimally common belief, but the question, do you believe in God, is zapped of its power because of indifference and apathy to it. Kyle: That question is meaningless to an apatheist, in fact, they may even feel negative towards it, because they're so tired of being asked it, right? Joe: Right, so you're starting at a deficit almost? Kyle: Exactly. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: You have to take a step backwards in just recognizing that we don't share that minimally common interest is crucial to approaching apatheism, yeah. Joe: Excuse me, what should I do if I've ... I have this friend and he's apatheist, I'm just going to say, and I have a few friends that I already know fit. Say they're not friends, say we don't have a relationship already, is that the key? Is it having a relationship? Even then, maybe they don't care to talk about this. I'm the kind of person, jumping into me for a minute, I'm the kind of person that I will get confused like sports. Joe: I'm like which one is the football and the basketball? I'm at that level, right? Extremely ignorant when it comes to sports, just a real idiot, and so somebody wants to come and talk to me at sports, I'm just like I will smile and be nice and can't wait for you to stop talking about this, right? How would a person come to me and talk about sports in a way that's interesting? Joe: How do I go to a person and talk about something spiritual when they just simply don't care? Kyle: Yeah, so in that scenario what I would say is you are interested in sports, you just don't know it yet. Joe: Oh, good one, I love this, please tell me more. Kyle: How do I get you to recognize that you actually are interested in sports? Well, I would begin by finding what are you interested in period, right? When I say that the classical methods that we've developed from apologetics, we've presupposed something that perhaps we don't have any more. What I'm not saying is well we'll just nuke apologetics altogether, right? Kyle: We're just going to start over again, that's absolutely foolish throwing the baby out and the bathwater, right? Joe: You've got nothing. Kyle: No, there are people in the history of Christianity thinking theologically, philosophically and approaching their cultures, that I think anticipated this type of thing. I think we look to, in their technical terms, individuals that have explored presuppositional or existential approaches to apologetics. Things like the moral argument can be very helpful here. Kyle: What we do is we start from the bottom up, rather than the top down, right? The to down approach is you believe in God, I believe in God, but you believe in God in a way that does not align with reality, so let me explain to you how. Let me argue that, let's go through your objections, and then boom, we get to the gospel. Joe: Which even works for an atheist, because you would say, "You believe in the value of this concept God, you just believe that it's false." Kyle: That's correct, yeah. Joe: Right. Kyle: Then you deal with objections and then get to a gospel presentation. With the apatheists though, I think you have to flip the script a bit, you have to start with the bottom up. We start with the individual, and I've found that most people are interested in themselves. Joe: Yeah, sure. Kyle: Via fallen nature that we are our favorite thing to think about. When I'm having conversations with apatheists, the place I start with is not God. He is the goal of course, but the place I start with is them. I ask them, "What do you find interesting? What drives you? What are your fears? What are your hopes? What are your desires? What do you think is virtuous? What do you think is unvirtuous? What do you think is good character? What do you think is a character flaw?" Kyle: Naturally most of those conversations go towards political things. What I try to do is I try to steer the conversation towards issues of morality. Then employ what Francis Schaeffer identified as pressure points and worldviews. Things that are held inconsistently or ideologically, and really push on them and ask, "Why? Why is that?" Kyle: Very quickly, for example, using the moral argument for why murder is wrong. You would ask a person like, "Why do you think murder is wrong?" The person would say, "Well, it's not good to kill somebody, because you're taking away that person from their family." "Well I agree with that, but what if a person, another person believes that taking away that person from their family is good, is a good thing, and they have one reason or another? Well who's to say that you shouldn't murder that person?" Kyle: Well the conversation then goes to there's governments let's say, right? You shouldn't murder, murder is illegal, so I guess that's why I think murder is wrong. Well what if there is a government that decides murdering is good, right? Joe: We've had that before. Kyle: We've had those before in history, right? Then what do we do, right? You argue this until you're in this theoretical land of a one universal government that determines whether or not murder is wrong. Then well you can imagine that universal government decides at one point no, genocide is good, so now what do we do? Well I don't know, what do we do? Kyle: That's a pressure point in their worldview, they can't explain why they believe murder is objectively wrong. Joe: Yeah, I think this is interesting, because a lot of the stuff we learned in apologetics, we've essentially shuffled the deck on. We're still using all those cards, we're using all those approaches. We're using all those ideas and concepts. We're using the reductio ad absurdum, the logic, like take this to its logical end and where does this take us based on what you said you, etc. Joe: We're doing it in a way, like you said, which I think is so critical, we're doing it in a way that starts with something they care about. Kyle: Right, that's exactly right, yeah, and notice the entire time I was having, we were having this very speedy, truncated vision of that conversation, I didn't bring up God once. Joe: Right. Kyle: I didn't need too, that wasn't the point in the conversation at the beginning stage. Then the question becomes well, why can you say murder is objectively wrong? I don't know. That moment, the, I don't know is called doubt, right? Doubt, when used sometimes, is quite advantageous. You've caused them now to think critically about their worldview. Kyle: Soren Kierkegaard has a great line about doubt, using it in this kind of a way. He says, "That doubt is a higher form than any objective thinking, because it presupposes the latter, but it has something more, a third, which is interest." Joe: Yes, because doubt is not simply, I don't know, like agnosticism in the little a, agnosticism. It's not just simply a vacuum, it's an out of balance vacuum. I feel uncomfortable, because something needs to be back in line. Kyle: That's right, so this is Kierkegaard's point. Doubt's a good thing in these kinds of situations, because if you're apathetic about your faith, if you're apathetic about a position, no amount of questioning or propositions is going to zap you out of that apathy until you're interested. Obviously you can't be apathetic toward something and interested toward something simultaneously, it's impossible, it defies both terms. Kyle: How do you get somebody from apathy to interest? Kierkegaard says, get them to doubt something about the thing that they're apathetic about, or that is related to the thing they're apathetic about. Then you have interest, and interest is important, because it zaps the apathy of its power, right? That one thing that they were completely disinterested in and indifferent towards just a moment ago, now becomes something that they have to seek out. Joe: Yes, doubt becomes like the fulcrum gets them back into the interest area. Kyle: That's right, that's right. Joe: That's very interesting. Kyle: At this point, in these moments of doubt, they start to think objectively. Now for the first time maybe in a long time they're interested. This is when you make a gospel presentation. This is when we can re-approach apologetics in the way that perhaps we're more familiar with, right? We've not assumed the presupposition that these men of Athens are very religious in every way. Kyle: We've gotten them interested and then now we can move forward. Joe: Really, unless a person is clinically depressed or something like this, unless a person is really just disconnected and not motivated to live, they are interested in something, in things. They have ambitions, they have motivations, and I feel like what you're saying is we just need to do the work of finding those. They are not being upfront in that kind of way in the way that an atheist is. Joe: An atheist says, "I'm very upfront about what I disbelieve." Somebody who is apathetic in this way says, "I'm not really gonna tell you in that way," right? Kyle: That's right. Joe: This conversation is boring to me, but it's not boring. It's just the framework of it's boring, and what you're saying is you come in with this back door, you find the doubt, find what they're interested in, expose the doubt, and then the new interest emerges, the relevance to the real conversation. Kyle: That's right, if you've struck a vein that truly causes them to doubt, interest inevitably comes. Nobody's ever doubted something and then not felt some kind of interest towards why they doubted that thing, right? It's a very, very powerful tool to use, it just needs to be used wisely and appropriately. Joe: Sure. Kyle: Perhaps even in moderation, you don't want to just throw somebody into an existential tail spin. Joe: Yeah, this is for your own good. Kyle: That's right. Yeah, I think it's a challenge, right? Joe: Yeah. Kyle: It's a challenge. Joe: It's a challenge, but it's also a way forward. I think you come across someone who is in apatheist, someone who's really just apathetic about spiritual things, you're like well I don't know what to do. I think a lot of people feel that, and having this approach first step I think is very helpful, it's very helpful for me. Kyle: Well that's good, that's good, yeah. Yeah, I would say I've had this kind of conversation quite a few times now, and one of the things that I've had told to me is that just seems like a lot. I can't even remember this conversation that we had, how am I supposed to draw up this framework the second I identify an apatheist? One, I think these types of things come with experience and practice. Kyle: Evangelism, of course, is a gifting that the Holy Spirit gives us, and it's one in which he guides us, and one that we become better with through experience. The challenge I would say is well don't worry about being able to draw on this and other things that you've thought about before, go do it in and see if the spirit is not good and willing and able to guide you through these things. Kyle: Then second, in these moments we're called to be stewards. If we're stewards of the message that we're given and we rely in faith that even in our stumblings we're trying to analyze somebody's worldview, find pressure points, push on them, get them to doubt, get them to interest, that first of all this is precious to the father. This is an act of worship and it's pleasing to him. Kyle: Second, he's good to use it, so you may not zap them out of their apathy the first time, the third time, the fifth time, the 10th time. That's okay, like you may be chapters one through three in a story that's 50 chapters long. Joe: Yeah. Kyle: Yeah, it's a challenging thing, but I still think that not only are we called to through the great commission to engage all peoples, which include the apatheists, even if they're more challenging than others, it's something that the spirit indwells you to do, right? He's there with you in these moments. Joe: I think the encouraging thing to me is having the right tools, knowing what to do, at least in some sense is a good thing, but ultimately, it's not my job to save anybody. Kyle: That's right. Joe: Right? It's just my job to say why I care. Kyle: Yeah, that's right. Joe: To me that's encouraging. This has been really great Kyle, I want to ask you one last question, how are you answering God's call? What does that mean and look like and so forth in your life? Kyle: Yeah, I mean personal day-to-day, the way I'm answering God's call is through finding the ways in which he's sanctifying me, and digging in and pushing into those. It may sound very basic, but I think it's very true. This comes through repentance and through prayer and through reading Scripture and acting on the things that God has told me to do and not just filing them away in a journal. Kyle: Very recently, just being candid, the Lord has pressed on, or just pushed on my heart in prayer that he would like to see me be more aware of what repentance means and to be bolder. Answering God's call for me in this season of life is being keenly aware of what is repentance, how often do we do it? Should I be doing it more often? What does it mean to be bold, to be bold for the gospel? Kyle: It means being a good husband, it means being a good teacher. It means being a good preacher when I'm given those opportunities. I think for me, the short answer of how I'm answering God's call is he's given me talents like from the parable, talents to steward and to multiply. Every day I ask how can I multiply the talents that you have given me? Kyle: Not just to receive an answer, but to act on that answer as well. Joe: It's a great question, how can I multiply the talents that you've given me. This has been quite a joy as always. Thanks for coming to the podcast Kyle. Kyle: Yeah, Joe, thank you for having me, it was a pleasure.

In this episode, Zach and Latricia discuss effective salary negotiation strategies with experienced Walker Elliot senior recruiter Kyle Mosley. Length: 00:39:55Hosts: Latricia | ZachTRANSCRIPTLatricia: Federal Reserve research shows that Black workers earn less than their white counterparts in a worsening trend that holds even after accounting for differences in age, education, job type and geography.In 1979, the average black man in America earned 80 percent as much per hour as the average white man. By 2016, that shortfall had worsened to 70 percent, according to research from the San Francisco Federal Reserve, which found the divide had also widened for black women.The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (that's 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056. The excerpts I read from Bloomberg and NBC respectively speak to historical inequity that people of color face when it comes to equal pay in the workplace. Considering the nation’s history, this itself should not be a surprise, however the question is what if anything can we do as non-white men do to tip the scales in our favor? This is Latricia. And you’re listening to Living Corporate.Latricia: So, today we’re talking about effective salary negotiation and career management strategies.Zach This is a great topic and I’m glad we’re discussing it. The data you shared at the top of the show was… I’ma be honest, it was like really depressing - BUT it points to the reality of where we are and we can’t move forward without being honest about where we’re starting.Latricia: Right. It is frustrating to see the data and it’s reminder that racial inequity goes beyond the typical talking points that aren’t often explored and understood.Zach: Right. Latricia: I mean, let me read this again-“The analysis from Institute for Women’s Policy Research says if the wage gap keeps narrowing at the pace it has been the last 50 years, Black women will not catch up to white men until the year 2124 (which is 106 years from now), Hispanics until 2248, and white women until 2056.”Zach: That. is. Crazy. And I know this show is about salary negotiation and career management, but that particular point from those articles reminds me of conversations you and I have had around how so many companies promote Diversity & Inclusion but don’t actually discuss anything beyond gender representation.Latricia: Right we just talked about that - so this is a great example of how that binary view is so problematic. From looking at the analysis from the Institute for Women’s Policy Research and again be reminded that all women aren’t treated equally, having that intersection of race and gender matters if we’re going to have completely authentic conversation around these issues.Zach: Man, I completely agree. So with that in mind, let’s talk about salary negotiation. I think this is a great topic because I’ll speak for my own experiences and what I’ve observed, I feel as if people of color don’t really advocate or encourage the idea of just negotiating. I’ll hear more stuff like “you just need to get in the door and work your way up, you don’t want them to look at you sideways or think that you’re all about the money or whatever, whatever, whatever”. I hear a lot of those talking points from other people of color.Latricia: Right, right. And I’ve heard the same thing. A little bit about me, my background is in public health and I’m in this facebook group with other women in public health, I won’t say the group specifically, but I’ve seen how black women with master’s degrees are working jobs out of their masters for almost minimum wage. And I can’t believe it. And even just the idea of a six figure salary is something that they don’t dream of until they’re at the top of their career, maybe close to retirement, we’re talking like 50. That’s when they’re thinking they’ll be able to get to that six figures. And then I’m sharing stories about kids I know coming out of undergrad within 3 years at some of these firms, and they’re making six figures in 3 years and you’re talking six figures 20 years into your career. And I’m really passionate about this episode and it’s important for us to talk about it. Like I said, in public health, for some reason people are too ashamed to talk about the money because we’re more focused on social justice and healthcare for all and I totally understand that viewpoint, but we can accomplish social justice and still secure the bag. So, I really think that this is going to be an important show.Zach: Right, and I guess I’m a little taken aback to be honest, because you’re talking about these women. And like I said, you and I have had this conversation in private, but you saying it again is just mind-boggling. You’re talking about women who have advanced degrees taking, like, pennies on the dollar. And that’s nuts to me. And it honestly makes me sad but I’m not surprised, like where do you think that comes from? The idea of not negotiating or not negotiating enough? And let me be clear guys, this is not just an issue for black women. The main people I’ve gotten this whole “chill, take it slow, get in the door and grind” talk are actually from male people of color. But where do you think that comes from, Latricia? What are your thoughts there?Latricia: It’s definitely not exclusive to women of color. These realities still create practical, micro level challenges for all of us day-to-day. And like we said from the start, the issues we’re pushing up against are systemic and institutional and we get that… but, I don’t think that means we just say “whelp, racism, woe is me” and don’t at least figure out ways to fight and be more strategic in how we push for that bag you know? Zach: I definitely do. That’s funny “whelp, racism” that should be a meme. “Nothing we can really do.” It’s not funny but it’s kinda funny at the same time. Anyway--Latricia: That’s gonna be the hashtag for the show, by the way.Zach: Anyway, to your point, I definitely do. And like you said, just talking about some of the larger data points, who’s to say that we’re not able to do some things and mobilize at an individual level that could impact the whole thing? There might be things that we can do, just as Latricia, as Zach, as the person listening to this podcast that could actually make a dent in some of these trends. Latricia: Absolutely. And really, it’d be great to have another, more seasoned perspective. Like someone with over 25 years of experience in career coaching, or corporate recruiting, salary negotiations, and strategic relationship building. Not to say this discussion hasn’t been great, but just to have that extra perspective, you know?Zach: Hmm… you mean like our guest for today’s show, Kyle Mosley?Latricia, Zach: Whaaaaa-?[air horns]Latricia: Alright, so next, we’re going to go into an interview with our guest, Kyle Mosely.Zach: So we have Kyle Mosley on the show - Kyle, welcome!Kyle: Hey, thank you for having me, Zach.Zach: Not a problem, we’re really excited to have you here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind just sharing your story?Kyle: Oh definitely. Well, Zach, I’ve been a recruiter for about 25 years here in Houston, Texas. I started off in 1992, so really I’m going into my 26th year pretty soon. So I started as an engineering recruiter, as well as I delved into some executive recruiting. I owned my own recruiting firm for 8 years before getting back into connecting with an old buddy of mine in the recruiting network and I’m still recruiting until this day. It has been a very lucrative field, my wife is a recruiter as well. And it’s a great opportunity for me to be able to share and help other people.Zach: That’s awesome, and congratulations on coming up on 26 years, that’s amazing.Kyle: Yeah long time. Long, long time, man.Zach: So as you know today we're talking about effective salary negotiation. Can you explain from your point of view why salary negotiation matters?Kyle: That’s a good question. Salary negotiations are much like a relationship negotiation. It sets the tone for what relationship you will or will not have with the prospective employer, okay? So ideally everybody wants to have a win-win situation when it comes to salary negotiations. But, we know eventually one side will either concede or compromise or the other side will not. And somebody either will walk away or, if there is the compromise, there still may be some expectations there from one party that didn’t quite get what they want. So when you go into a salary negotiation, you must know that before you finalize the negotiation as well as come to terms with the other party, what are you prepared to be able live with? I think right now, Zach, in this day and age, it’s no different from when I started recruiting, to be honest with you. It’s that everybody expects to get something out of the deal, right? So if you go into the salary negotiation expecting your top ten list to be fulfilled by the employer? I think you’re delusional.Zach: [Laughs]Kyle: [Laughs] And the reason why I’m saying this is let’s be honest, and I always back to the relationship principle - when you and your wife first started dating, there was some give and take. And it’s the same with your employer, or prospective employer. There will be a give and take. Now, your employer may concede certain aspects of the job function or the salary that you’re going to get, but there are going to be some high expectations the higher that salary goes.Zach: Okay.Kyle: And are you willing and ready to be prepared to accept that responsibility, you see? So if you cannot accept that responsibility and take the ownership of what’s going to happen once you become gainfully employed with that prospective employer, you are going to really have a difficult track with that organization.Zach: So to your point though about, I guess, being more practical regarding companies’ expectations the higher the number goes, do you have any examples or stories of how that plays out?Kyle: Over 25 years I’ve been a part of hundreds of salary negotiations, right? The issue comes into play and it always comes back to “who’s going to be bitter about this situation or not?” [Laughs]Zach: [Laughs] ‘Kay.Kyle: and who’s going to have the higher expectation there. So let’s kind of do a reverse engineering type deal - Let’s start from - you’re on board with the employer, but that employer is going to be expecting certain things from you. So before you go into any salary negotiation, you’ve got to be able to do your homework, number one. And also, number two, you have to know your value. If you don’t know your value and you don’t know anything about the employer or where you’re going to work, you’re really going to put yourself at a disadvantage in this whole negotiation scenario. Now when I talk about knowing your value, is the fact that a lot of people believe that ‘okay. I came out of school, went for 4 years, got my bachelor’s’ and let’s say ‘I went to get a master’s degree or MBA or some sort of advanced college degree, right?Zach: Right.Kyle: So therefore when I go onto these career sites like glassdoor or salary.com or monster or careerbuilder, these guys are telling me I’m worth 80k dollars to start off with. And the employer wants to know ‘yeah, you have great credentials when it comes to your educational credentials, but what about when it comes to your real work experience credentials?’ Ok, and the value comes into - if I offer Zach an opportunity to come onto my company XYZ Executive Firm, right? I need to know that Zach from Day 1 is going to enhance my company. Versus Zach is going to be a person extracting from my company.Zach: okay, yeah.Kyle: So then, that’s when I’m saying if you know your value from day 1, you’ve got to be able to articulate this to your prospective employer. That’s a part of the negotiation cycle. Alright so, I have an entry-level kid coming out of one of these big name Texas schools, and he’s an engineer, and he has his PhD in engineering. So then I have a 5 year engineer who has worked in the oil and gas industry, he only has a bachelor’s degree and they’re vying for the same opportunity. So the firm is telling us ‘ Ilike the fact that this guy went to my alma mater. However, I need a guy that from Day 1 can hit the ground running.’ So who does he offer the job to? The one who has the practical, real-world experience. I’m not trying to alarm people who have done well in their educational pursuits, but you cannot say that I’m gonna walk in day 1 expecting x amount of salary if I don’t have practical experience. That’s when knowing your worth comes into play.Zach: ‘KayKyle: What are you willing to concede in order to get a start in the real world? That 1 if you’re entry-level. 2, let’s say you are the 5-year person or 10-year person or 20-year person - You have some achievements that you’ve done in previous jobs, but if you don’t have that information, if you’re just going off of your emotions-- see, you have to take the emotion out of the equation. You have to also articulate what you believe you’re worth.Zach: Okay. So when we’re sitting down and we’re having conversations with the employer, and you’re answering questions and things of that nature, how do you articulate your value?Kyle: Okay that’s where you do your homework. And a lot of doing your homework is what type of questions are you asking in the interview yourself. A lot of people go into an interview believing that they’re sitting down and the employer is going to ask them all of the questions and they’re going to answer questions and that’s it. No, you have to be prepared to be able to ask certain types of questions to the employer like How long has this job been open? How long have you been looking for the right person? What expectations do you have of that person when they walk in the door? 90 days, 120 days, 180 days, a year, whatever. What are those time tables? What are those things that we can quantify that you’re going to expect me to come in with through the door. If you’re a sales person, they’re going to want to see X amount of revenue that you bring into the organization, right?Zach: RightKyle: if you are an engineer or technical professional, they want to see how many projects you work on and complete in X amount of time. If you are an operations professional, how many projects have you brought to the table and how many projects have you been able to find the right people to work on those projects and be able to complete in this particular time frame as well. So those are the types of things that you have to be able to flesh out in the interview process. If you’re not able to flesh values from the employer, how can you negotiate effectively? Because a lot of people believe ‘It should be on my resume, and you should be able to give me what I’m worth’. So what is that? How does that look? How, as an employer, would I be able to know that Mr. Nunn is worth 60 or 80,000 dollars? 80 or 100,000 dollars to my organization? Because what’s going to be my return on my investment in Mr. Nunn?Zach: For those who don’t know, Kyle Mosley is a black man. And Kyle, I’m curious, as a black professional, I’m curious, have you seen any differences when you look at how white and non-white candidates pursue job opportunities?’Kyle: First of all, audience, let me just say this - I’m a Morehouse man. So when I came out of college, I believed I could conquer the world. I’ll be honest with you though, back in 1989, that’s when I graduated, and I believed I could walk into any room, boardroom and get an offer. That’s how i felt. As a matter of fact, when I first got to Houston, I interviewed at 5 companies in one day and got 4 offers. I had confidence, right? So the confidence I had was I did not go into the interviews with fear. When an African-American engineer, not all- this is what I have noticed.Zach: Okay.Kyle: When an AA engineer goes into an interview, they usually are not as well prepared on the company, who’s the interviewer, who’s going to be a part of the interviewing process, understanding what makes the people tick. If you ever have dealt with a recruiter or have a relationship, a recruiter can possibly give you some inside information on the company, what’s happening with the position, how long these people have been looking, if it’s a high turnover type of situation, or if it’s going to be a tough interview, and how you need to present yourself. We do the whole gamut of setting the person up for as much success during the interview versus if you’re winging it by yourself. And you can always use me, I’m just putting it out there, as someone - you’ve probably heard my voice and said ‘alright I need some help, I’m going into this, I don’t have a recruiter’ - call me. I’m open to help people out. What I would suggest is not only building a network with recruiters or with other talent professionals, being able to study who you’re going to speak with and the market. Also go on LinkedIn. Man, LinkedIn is a fabulous tool. I’m just going to use fictional ABC company.Zach: Sure.Kyle: So, sometimes Human Resources is going to say ‘Ok Sally, you have an interview at 8am tomorrow, be here, be early so you can be prepared to fill out paperwork...’ And you hang up the phone. ‘Wow, I got an interview!’ and you’re excited. Zach, who will you meet? Who will be a part of this process?Zach: Yeah.Kyle: Now I’ve seen other engineers say ‘ok that’s great, but when I walk in the door, who do I need to be expecting my arrival? And how long will I be with this person? Who else is going to be a part of this process?’ They ask more questions.Zach: Right.Kyle: They want to be educated. They want to go to the person’s linkind profile, look at let’s say, where the person went to school, how long they’ve been at the company themselves, what type of hobbies they may have, sometimes people have their hobbies on there. Let’s say it’s photography or hunting or whatever it is.Zach: Right.Kyle: Those are things that you could bring up in the interview, okay? Try to find some common ground with the person outside of just being about the interview or things of that nature, right?Zach: Right. Kyle: So those are things that help you build a successful way to get in the door, interview successfully with that person, and ask the right questions- typically I don’t want people to speak about money on the first interview.Zach: Okay.Kyle: You typically do not want to be the one to come out with the money first because you don’t want to look like it’s only about money to you. Most of the time, they’re going to ask you. So if they ask you, yes address it. And address it confidently. Now, you can also say this- let’s say I’m Mr. Interviewer. ‘Well, Zach, how much money do you want for this particular job?”Zach: Right. [laughs]Kyle: ‘How much are you expecting from us here?’‘Well, Mr. Employer that’s a great question. Can I answer this at the end of the interview so I can be able to get an assessment for what you guys are looking for, to make sure that I’m able to answer that correctly and address it properly.’Zach: Right. So I hear what you’re saying, but at the end of the interview, what would you suggest saying?Kyle: Well, you can give them the number you feel that would make you happy. [laughs]Zach: [laughs]Kyle: but you say it in such a way - ‘well, based upon what you guys are looking for, Joe, you’ve been looking for 5 months, you’ve been trying to find the right person who can execute this type of project. I have been able to execute this type of project in several occasions, I explained that in the interview. You’ve been looking for someone to come in and work well with the team, with different teams... so based upon what you’re looking for and my background and feeling like I can make a contribution immediately, I want 100,000 dollars.Zach: Straight like that.Kyle: If you already know that this is what the salary range is bearing, right? Zach: Right. Kyle: You need to have a good feeling, and you can ask that question with HR on the phone , say ‘Hey you know I’m just kind of curious. For this type of role, thank you for this interview first, but what’s the salary range for this?’Zach: you know, I think- Of course we live in a capitalistic society, right? Like you have to have money to survive. So I’m really trying, and I appreciate you clarifying, asking directly about the money piece because I’ve also been in situations where people reach out to me and they’ll be really excited and you know, their salary range is like 15-20% under what I’m making right now. And everybody wants to always make more. You know like ‘how much do you want to make?’ ‘I want to make more than I’m making right now whatchyou mean?’ So I think it’s really important if there’s a way that you can kinda get in front of that and in a way, to your point though, that isn’t so money hungry or just makes it seem as though all you care about is money but at the same time, being transparent about where are we with this thing financially.Kyle: Can I just adress one thing, Zach?Zach: You sure can, yes please.Kyle: Okay, notice when the person asked the question, I didn’t just immediately answer the question, but I asked another question. So there are a couple of techniques you can use. Person asks a question? You can answer the question with a question. Answering a question with a question - Kids are great at that, you know? They do the same thing. My son is about to be 13 next week and now he’s into - he’s not just going to give me a straight answer. And What I learned early on in my career in recruiting is that the person who answers the question first usually loses. Okay, so what do I mean by that? I’m glad you asked, Zach.Zach: [ laughs]Kyle: So what I mean by it is the fact that if a person says ‘we’re prepared to offer you 80,000 dollars.’. Now you can answer it ‘great! I accept! I’m ready to go to work!’ Because you must know in the back of your mind thats where you are and what you’re willing to accept. But if you want to negotiate, you may say ‘ hmm.......’ Notice that long, uncomfortable pause.Zach: Yes, I did.Kyle: right, it’s an uncomfortable pause so sometimes the HR professional who may be extending the offer verbally or the hiring manager may extend it verbally, sometimes they just send an email these days which is a horrible, horrible way of presenting an offer to a prospective employee. Yes I said that, Mr. and Mrs. Employer. You guys need to stop that.Zach: [laughs] Amen.Kyle: So you’ve got to be willing to answer the question, follow up and say ‘look, this seems like a great offer, let me study it, let me be able to review it. I may have some questions, will I be able to call you back? What time is good for me to do so? Let’s make an appointment, can we talk at 3 oclock on Monday to be able to go over the offer in detail, so I can be able to make sure I’m on the same page with you.Zach: Okay.Kyle: So you’re going to have them doing what? In the next day or two or the next hours that are coming - ‘did I really extend it the best offer I could’. Now I always ask my employers whenever they extend an offer to any of my candidate, I’ve been taught to ask this from day 1 - is this the best offer you can extend?Zach: I like that.Kyle: Why? Because I’ve got to be honest guys, 80-90% of the time, that’s not the best offer they can extend. Now, is that the best offer they’re going to extend to you? Maybe. But the bottom line is there are other variables. So you want them to be able to explain why they were eager to prepare this offer for you. And listen, don’t get emotional. Don’t get mad and feel you’re being lowballed. Or you’re being underappreciated or feeling discriminated against. You can’t do that. You have to listen first. Listen to what they have to say, say ‘Okay, I’m taking all of this into consideration. Can I get back to you’ Now here’s the fear part. And this is where many of my minority friends come into the fear part. ‘They’re going to rescind the offer. Because I asked to be able to think about it’.Zach: Right.Kyle: No. It’s how you prepare to ask about. If you have an attitude? Yeah, most likely they’re going to rescind the offer. But if you’re trying to make a well educated decision and let them know ‘I’m trying to make the best decision for me and my family’ or ‘for me and my professional career’. Even if you are fearful they’re going to rescind the offer, say something like this- ‘well, I need to see the benefits, can I speak with the human resources professional and go over the benefits first?’Zach: Oh that’s awesome, yeah.Kyle: Then they’re thinking ‘well yeah, it’s just the benefits, yeah sure. Sure sally why don’t you do that, I’ll set you up with Joe Best and you guys can go over that’ you know? How well you frame it is going to make sure you have your house being supported - your career is your house - what type of foundation you lay, what type of framework you put into your home, will it support the weight of everything else that’s going on? And I’m only saying this because I want the audience to be more in a power type of position versus being passive when it comes to this. Once you start your career, guys, you have to be able to say ‘This is what my goals are going to be’.. And every year you have to redefine your goals, you have to please please redefine your goals. Make sure you check on your goals, make sure you’re on point. You also need to have an outside coach or someone to help monitor you with your accountability as well.Alright, what I would say is this, to any professional, it doesn’t matter how young or old you are- make sure you learn as much as you can to platform yourself to your new situation. Build your career, have a solid foundation so that when people, they look at your track record, they see a progression. That’s it right there, a progression. OKay? Because I had a client of mine come to us and say ‘look, I don’t want to see anyone who’s unemployed’. It’s like ‘ok, this is oil and gas country, there may have been some people out of work’. And the guy says ‘yeah I understand that, but for this role, because this person will most likely become a manager within the next year or two and I need to train this person because I’m going to become the VP of the company, I need to see somebody with a career track record that they progressed from one job to the next. So the person wasn’t just engineer day 1, then he went to another company to be the same type of engineer. You know, I want to see the person go to the next step, supervisor, next step department manager, next step this that and the other, right? If the person’s going to be Analyst 1, don’t go to another job where you’re just going to be Analyst 1. If you can bear not to do so, just for the same type of functions, but more money.Zach: Kyle this is great. And I actually think that’s a good place to end it. You know I really appreciate your time, Thank you. Before we let you go - do you have any shoutouts?Kyle: First of all, I would like to thank everyone who has been in my career my 25+ years. Thank you very much for helping me to be highly successful. My wife, of course, and my family, and thank you for this opportunity as well. But most of all, audience, I would like to thank you for listening into what Zach is presenting because this is some good information. And you may say ‘Hey, Mr. Mosely, I think you made some nice points but I don’t quite agree with you’. That’s okay! It's a discussion for you to think about what you want to do with your career and how you’d like to progress with your career. So you can always follow me on twitter @ExecRecruitPro, I’m on twitter there. And if you want to connect with me, my firm that I represent is called Walker Elliott. So you can always email me at kmosley@walker-elliott.com.Zach: And there it is, Kyle Mosely thank you so much again.Kyle: Hey thank you Zach, anytime, let me know and remember - don’t be as good as, be better than.Zach: Amen. Peace, Man.Kyle: Take care, bye.Latricia: And we’re back! Zach that was a great interview. Kyle has a lot of knowledge and I just love his energy.Zach: Yeah for sure. Typically I feel like I’m the bombastic one but he was keeping up with me pretty good. What did you think about his feedback on clearly articulating the number you want and the reason why?Latricia: Yeah, I really enjoyed his practical perspective on things. For example, response methods. So not just blurting out concerns like ‘that’s not enough money!’, but pausing before you speak, and making it a little awkward. That was really funny, but it makes sense because it’s that psychological approach. There were some mind games there and I just really enjoyed that.Zach: Absolutely. I enjoyed it as well. I also appreciated that he said how this is his perspective and not Gospel. We definitely enjoyed having him on the show, and we definitely want to have him back.Latricia: Yeah he was great. We need to make sure we drop his contact information so everyone can reach out to him if they have any additional questions or concerns.Zach: For sure! Ok - Well look, let’s get into our next segment - favorite things, where we talk about our favorite things these days. Latricia I’ll let you start.Latricia: Yeah, so my favorite thing right now has to be biking. So, it’s very important that you stay fit. I recently participated in BikeMS in Dallas, it was a 160 mile bike route. Of course I did not do the 160 because I am a beginner. So I did the beginner route, but I love biking, it’s a great way to exercise without feeling like it’s punishment, and I’m hoping that next year I can actually complete the entire course.Zach: Man that’s really cool. And we definitely, definitely wanna stay fit, and I’m really excited actually because I know down the road we want to actually have a whole show about personal wellness. Right? And that’s a big part of it. Physical wellness is a huge part of it. Well, cool. My Favorite thing right now has to be, believe it or not, this Snoop Dogg Gospel album.Listen, y’all--Latricia: Ohh, that album is fire!Zach: It is Fire, it is really really good. I mean, welcome to 2018. Like, I can say that Snoop Dogg, at this point -- and again I didn’t want to be a prisoner of the moment, so I said welcome to 2018--where Snoop Dogg has dropped one of the coldest gospel albums I have ever heard. And it’s been some months now and this album is still heavy in my rotation, especially when folks trying me at work. To be honest.Latricia: [laughs] I actually listen to that song when I’m at work, too. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show - Like The Read , make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. My name is Latricia.Zach: and I’m Zach.Latricia, Zach: peace!Mrs. Jackson: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post Production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on twitter, facebook, instagram and living dash corporate dot com. Thanks for listening! Stay tuned.

What’s Good? Christmas happened which is super rad, so we talk about that for a hot minute. Then we get into the juicy meat of the anime world. Cool, huh? News Crunchyroll/Funimation will release a Re:Zero dub in Spring 2018. Non Non Biyori announces Film Adaptation of “Non Non Biyori Vacation” Zokuowarimonogatari will air in 2018. Violet Evergarden May be airing weekly on Netflix. Hosoda’s films are now available for stream on Funimation. Anime staff for A Sister’s All You Need wants to make more!   Who is Kyle? Well that’s kind of a big question, buddy...   Kyle’s Trash Pile Review A Sister’s All You Need- Silver Link. (Kokoro Connect, Tanaka-kun is Always Listless, Brave Witches)   Our logo artist! http://turvytops.com/           Our intro artist! Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/tomnasr Instagram: @tom_nasr Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/SuperArmhair                Contact Us: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/instantramenpodcast/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/InstantRamenPod Instagram: http://instagram.com/instantramenpodcast E-mail: instantramenpodcast@gmail.com Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChtwCC2BbsLxpgA1cE1PBtA Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/krispother Blog: https://instantramenpodcast.blogspot.com/

Kyle Burnett, Chief Technology Officer and co-founder of Allbound, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss the birth and growth of the partner portal, navigating channel tech, integrations, SaaS partner programs and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Hi everybody. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And if you're a regular listener of the podcast, you know I don't typically sound quite this froggy. I'm getting over a cold, I actually sound way worse than I feel. And I'm actually in a pretty great mood, and one of the reasons why is today's guest is none other than Allbound's own Chief Technology Officer and co-founder, Kyle Burnett. Welcome, Kyle.   Kyle: Hi Jen. I think your voice sounds awesome and after this, we're going to karaoke because I think you've probably got a pretty good voice for it right now.   Jen: Oh my gosh, I think if I do that I'll have no voice at all in the coming weeks. After this podcast, I think I'm going to go on a vocal rest. Is that what artists call it? Vocal rest? So this is going to be super fun. Typically on the podcast, we have folks in sales or marketing and always with a channeled focus, of course. But I want to add your voice to the mix because there's a pretty big role that technology plays in the channel. And, also I think you're pretty awesome.   Kyle: Well, thank you. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a fun topic, too, because technology in every sector of business is kind of at the forefront. It's hard to turn on news and not see stories about technology, technology companies, what they're doing, what's trending. And what I do love about your podcast is you're a great resource and support for sales and marketing people because it's not the headlines that you see every day. Technology winds up being the focus. So it'd be kind of fun to swing this back around a little bit and see if we can really focus on the cross section of those two.   Jen: Absolutely. So let's just dive right in. I want to start with a Channel Partner word that I honestly kind of have a love/hate relationship with. It's the word "portal" or "partner portal," and I can explain a little bit later on why I have this love/hate relationship with it. But Kyle, can you put on your professor hat for us here and kinda walk us through the birth and the growth of the partner portal? Because every person who I have on the podcast, almost all of them...they either have or want to have or talk begrudgingly about their partner portal.   Kyle: I'm sure. Yeah, I'm kind of like the wiki on that, and I think that sometimes the word's so loaded and we can take pieces of it and maybe think about it positively or negatively. But I think if you just back up the story and where the portal came from, it's really no different than every other portal that exists on the internet.   You know, pre-internet, how did you communicate with partners, with business partners? You printed and mailed things to them, newsletters, for example. And you had to print and mail other collateral and information that you needed them to have - data sheets, board papers, case studies - whatever you needed your partners to have, and that was print and mail.   Pretty soon that turned into digital files that are online, so instead of sending a newsletter you can email a newsletter. Instead of sending files, you can email files or links to files. And pretty soon you start aggregating that into one location online into, well, a portal.   And now you can actually switch and have that be more of an on-demand scenario where partners can come and get it when they need it. And it pretty much just follows the history of the internet in general, having information that you wanted to share and how do you just get it all congregated, aggregated to one location so that it's there on-demand, and that's kind of where the portal came from and actually where it just ends to where it exists today.   And I think to hone in on the love/hate piece of this, what we don't like about where portals exist today is that still implies that it was the portal that came in 1997 when the internet started to really take off. It feels like it got left in time, vs. software, which is ever evolving, changing, and growing. And I think that's kind of where Allbound sits is right there, and where a lot of companies, you know, what they're looking to in the channels to try to figure out how to actually use technology and how to actually use software and they still call it a portal. And so we look at that and we want to address that and say, "Wait, are you thinking the portal? Or are you actually just thinking software?" But that's where it came from and it's, to some degree, better or worse, where it still largely sits today.   Jen: So, when I think about why I have this weird feeling about partner portals is, I love the idea that organizations are investing in making a resource, allocating a resource for their partners, and providing their partners with the location to go to to be able to access information, I love that. What I hate is that I feel like portals are this place where marketing collateral kind of goes to die.   And the other thing is I don't think I've ever talked to anybody who says, "Oh my gosh. We have the best partner portal ever. It's amazing. I love it." It's like, not to follow this house or room theme too much, but it's like this room. And there's all this furniture in this room and artwork, and none of it really goes together, but it's all there. Is it better to just to have the room? Would it be better not to have it at all? And so, that's where my conflict, I think, comes into play.   Kyle: Well, maybe there's a bunch of gothy millennials who have moved into the channel now and they really like this idea, and they like the idea that there's this really dark portal that's like a cemetery of marketing content and so they just want to hang out there and smoke some cloves. Maybe we're onto something. Maybe we should keep going with the portal because it'll become trendy and cool again.   But you're right, it is that feeling that it is a wasteland. And to some degree, it's kind of true. It's like you put content up there, you make it accessible to somebody. And that's great. The first time they go get it, they pull it up, they're like, "Awesome, great. This served this need that I have right now." But it does become very transactional. And it kind of lives and dies by the need of the transaction. And it doesn't really take on any other life form of its own. It just sits there, it just waits. And that serves its purpose, but that is, in scale and in scope, a very limited purpose and that's painful for the business-minded marketers, such as yourself, that actually want to invest your precious resources in something that's got a bigger, longer, more valuable life span than just transactions.   Jen: And there's this other piece about it that kind of leads me into the next question I want to ask you about, and it has to do with technology. And I want to ask you about integration. But before I do that... So, the other way that portals are used, besides just to hold content, right, it's almost like a place to go to then access other systems.   So maybe I go into the portal and then I can access a lead or deal registration system, or then I can access a marketing campaign type of system. And I start thinking about from the user experience perspective, like how do you make sure that you're able to maintain a consistent user experience? Or are you leading someone through this portal and they're, like, literally going through this magical kind of realm and then they end up in this other system? And how can they cleanly get back to where they started? And I think that's one of the other challenges that I've seen come into play besides just the content piece.   Kyle: Yeah, it's like they need a treasure chest map, a crayon to help work their way through it. But when we invest in technology, especially in the channel largely for two reasons. I think the other challenge is that the channel leaders are looking to bring systems together and perhaps portal is kind of this place where they start to think, "Well, I've got a portal. Can I also add this there? Can I also add that there?"   But if you simplify it, back up to, like, two commonalities there, one is, they are looking to simplify process. And they're also looking to speed up and simplify their own lives and that of the lives of their partners. And so, once they move beyond, "I've got content," and things to share with them, they do start to say, "Well, I also have this process. I've got this."   So it starts to balloon out from there and it's tricky. I mean, as a person who likes to build systems and tie systems together, I know that it's very easy to engage in that scope creep and engage in that idea creep to go, "Well, just one more thing, just one more thing, just one more thing," but that is how most people's portals and systems were built, was just one more thing over a couple of years, over a couple of different regimes, over a couple of different technologies. And pretty soon you do have, as you've alluded to, that house of horrors and rooms and things tied together and no one even remembers why they got added on and why that was put there. It just becomes very weird when the guest shows up and is not quite sure how to navigate it. So it can definitely become legacy very quickly. And those challenges exist, but that was born out of great intentions, and that was born out of great promise and it was born out of great opportunity, but it does need to be revisited. It can have a very limited lifespan if you're not careful.   Jen: So, when you're working with a customer and you'll come into the conversation because there are systems that need to communicate with each other, at their core, what are some of those challenges? You mentioned aligning different processes. Let's lay it out there. Like, what are those processes that the majority of channel teams are looking to overcome by integrating their systems?   Kyle: That's a good question. So, what I think is consultants...what you always like to do is focus on the business objectives. You really try to back the story up and say, "All right. So how is your business? What's the state of your business? What's the size of your business? What are your objectives to help grow that business? What are your metrics where you gauge?" You are trying to back that up to the investment they're looking to make and the resources that they need to accomplish their job and then what would they use to measure success, what constitutes success.   Well, the ROI of business technology using channel is pretty much about simplification of process and maximizing of their limited resources. So that's definitely a commonality. And the problems that kind of prevent you really trying to help focus on simplifying that is that they have lots of systems, they're disconnected, there's too many features. In the channel it's really easy to say, "I also need this, I also need this, I also need this." So if your feature list gets really long, that's a challenge that channel chiefs face.   Then, because there's the waft of technology kind of takes together those repetitive feature sets or competitive feature sets, then you get different technical stakeholders of each of those systems, and you've got all of this that you're trying to maximize and make the most out of with budget constraints. And that's quite a challenge. And it's a lot of a challenge for somebody to face who, inside of their own channel, has kind of their own core values in what they do and what they bring to the channel. And it's probably not navigating all of those problems to achieve this technical outcome when really they're like, "I'm here to lead people and lead teams towards business objectives, not figure how to get this system to talk to that system and get past the people who own those things."   So that's quite a challenge. And that's actually a fun one. What I really enjoy and what my team really enjoys as technical consultants is working with smart marketers and smart business people to analyze what they've got, and just sit down and draw it out, and draw up the process, and draw up the flow, and keep focusing on kind of their core business objectives and their metrics for success, and really focusing in on the ROI that they need off of their investment. And that ROI more often than not, is simplified down in terms of that it takes less resources to accomplish the processes that they need to show that what they're spending then works.   Jen: I know when you're integrating systems, you're typically integrating with an organization's CRM. What is the typical use case that you're looking at? What type of data are organizations needing to move from one place to the other? So, what's kind of standard? And then maybe can you share something really cool that either you've seen someone do or that you're anxious to see someone do? That would be kind of neat to hear.   Kyle: Sure. I think that really what the channel's trying to accomplish is the same thing that direct sales is trying to accomplish. And sometimes we lose track of that. We lose focus of that because of the disconnect, because instead of my sales people being right across the aisle, and instead of us all being in the same break room, we're in different locations. Well, big organizations have lots of sales teams working across cities, across countries even. So it's actually not all that widely different, except that technology hasn't really kept up with that style of relationship. So CRMs haven't kept up with that.   The cost of growing through your channel, doesn't align with the way that you can scale a CRM with your business. They figured out the CRM price point based off businesses scaling, and the market teams to be okay with that. That doesn't carry over to the channel. And so I think what winds up happening is the channel is kind of stuck there needing, essentially, a lot of the same CRMish functionality, specifically since they're sharing leads and registering deals back and forth and co-selling with partners. Whether that happens on one side or the other, leads being referred in for the supplier to be working through to a successful sale, and then just kind of reporting back to the partner where it is, or asking them out, letting the partner work and report it back in. Either way, they just need this collaborative effort going and sharing of information along the way of "Where is this? How is it going? How can I help?" CRMs haven't really helped with that when you're having people outside of your organization performing those activities with you.   So largely, what channel teams that we work with need is, they need the ability to collaborate with their partners on prospects from gathering them, to educating them, getting them up to speed, moving them along through the process, converting them to customers and then supporting them after they become customers, and keeping that relationship alive with all three of those parties involved. And that's what they're trying to solve for with a handful of different systems, and not necessarily the resources in house, not necessarily the descriptions that they needed the technology to help with that, and possibly not with the technical resources they need.   So that's what we see. And when we get to come in and help with that, it is to help them understand what it is that they've got now with tools they could be using now and how they could augment that tool set and fill in some of those gaps and really leverage a handful of different technologies to accomplish what they've got, some of those technologies they already have, and maybe some of them they have and don't even need. It's a fun discovery process. But you process-flow that out with them and it really helps them wrap their head around this data that's moving between systems and between organizations that is largely invisible otherwise.   Jen: And I threw two questions at once, which is annoying, so kind of the second part of that was just if you have any kind of anecdote, like anything really nifty, like a really cool example of something that you're seeing folks do with integration or what you'd like to see someone do?   Kyle: Oh yeah. So I guess there's kind of a positive and negative I'd throw at that, which is that technology, where it sits today and where integration sits today, gives all of us this idea that it can all be done. I think we were visiting a client here recently and they were talking about their technology being "not Hollywood-ready." So they have opted to focus on selling into businesses because businesses understand what the reality is of technology right now, vs. the rest of us who go watch a film and just think that Iron Man could build his suit very quickly over the weekend to be ready for the aliens coming in.   So we have this expectation that everything is horribly complex and really terrible and really important and all of these, like, superlatives, all of these really strong words, but then can also be really accomplished very simply and just, "I'll get this system and talk to that system and do that," so there's a lot of magic inside of there that should just happen. So I think the work implies that the best thing is when they have this realistic understanding that anything is possible, but also understanding what you really need to be doing and focusing on that.   The things that I really love is when we see simplicity, something as simple as tying together your marketing automation system - and I won't use the word portal - and tying in your channel software that you may not even need to necessarily have APIs talking to APIs and moving a ton of data back and forth, because there just may be simple stuff that you can do with existing tracking technology that your marketing automation system already does. Like, if you can track all of your leads and see that they're visiting a page of your website, why can't you track your partners and your partner's leads using the same existing technology? This is already there. It's been proven out. It works really well when you have really smart, skilled marketers using that technology. That can permeate through your partner software and through your partner relationships and actually give you all of those great data points that you use in direct sales, you can use it in your partnerships and your indirect sales as well.   And so I get super geeked by working with teams to tie some of this stuff together and find these really elegant, simple solutions that accomplish what you need with what you already have. It doesn't mean you have to reinvent the wheel. It doesn't mean you have to invest in new R and D. It doesn't mean to buy more software. Sometimes there's just really, really simple answers, and you feel really good about it when you stumble upon those working with your customers.   Jen: It's such a good message about simplicity, and technology's so funny because most of us have these pretty powerful tools at our disposal, and yet, because they are powerful and they're complex in their nature, we can very easily overcomplicate them.   And, I'm just kind of laughing in my head because one of my team members was working on a project, and it was taking her like a lot longer than I anticipated it was going to take her. But then when I checked in with her on it, I looked at what she had been doing and she had overcomplicated it for herself like times five, there was a much simpler path from A to B than she had taken, because the technology was so great, because the technology was awesome. But she missed it, and I saw how very, very easy it is for even sophisticated sales and marketing and channel professionals to follow down that path and start overcomplicating a system that's already kind of there and alive and working for them.   Kyle: Yeah, we talked a lot about giving people too much rope. I think that's probably an analogy you use when raising kids. You're like, "Give them too much freedom and what's gonna happen?" So it's kind of the same thing, that just because you can add more features and just because you can do more stuff doesn't necessarily mean that you should.   I think the flip side is a really interesting scenario is watching what Apple's doing. And I'm not a fanboy, so when I say this, this is with a ton of objective respect. I love that they're hitting delete on things. I love that they're removing items, that they're removing stuff. That simplicity is hard. I mean, can you imagine that have to happen within that organization to convince everybody that it's a good idea to keep deleting ports on the machine and keep throwing stuff away? And yet, they keep selling, they're selling strong, new things keep going, innovation keeps happening and people keep going with it, and come to find out, you didn't necessarily need it after all. You could get away with less. That's hard. I mean, they're in a fortunate place to be a market leader and be able to drive that, and that's hard for a lot of people kind of in their daily lives to be able to sell that, I think because aren't we kinda bred to be with the idea that more is better?   Jen: Right.   Kyle: Everything about us is about "consumption of more," you know? And I'm not trying to get down that little societal rabbit hole, but we think that way. We think, "Oh, well, like, let me go look at a chart and line up this software and look at features. Well, they have more check boxes on the left, so it must be better." But really? I mean, can you make use of all of that?   I think that's one of the challenges that the channel faces is the idea that they've been told for so long that they need more. You can't even make use of more. You can't make use of most of those things that are fullest. It's the same reason why Apple can delete all these extra ports, because most people weren't using them or didn't need them anyways. And it kinda goes the same with feature sets on software, feature sets on need. I've got this little joke around here that my ideal keyboard would have half of your keyboard with a big delete button and then there's just a couple of letters on the other side. I don't even need uppercase letters. I don't even want the shift key. It's known around here. It's like, if someone says, "I deleted something." I just like cheer and hand them some stock. "Here you go."   Jen: Oh, I think we'll have a Kyle keyboard in your future. I can see it.   Kyle: Yeah, and I'm not some minimalist. Don't get me wrong. I'm not some minimalist, right? You know me, Jen. I've got too many cars and projects and objectives and things I'm trying to do in life. I keep on top of working. I have no business doing all of that. So I'm definitely guilty as the rest of them of acquisition of things and the features and ideas. I throw out ideas, I use our prospect pages in Allbound and I'm like, "Dang it, I really need this other feature," and I go into our Slack group to talk about it and the thing jumps on me right away, it's a bit quiet.   So, I'm as guilty as the rest of them. It's most definitely a decided practice that you engage in over time to question what do you really need to really focus and really accomplish what you want? And the focus to grow applies from top-down, and it applies to every aspect of business, and less is a really, really beautiful thing.   And so it totally geeks me when I get to work with clients and we get to focus in on some of that, of removing extra needs and removing things that may have seemed like a good idea but actually, in the end, wind up just being something else to own, extra baggage, extra weight, extra responsibility that doesn't really generate value.   Jen: I was about to say, "I have one more question for you," and I'm looking at my question that I wrote down for myself and there's multiple question marks in that question, so I guess it's more than one question. But one more area I want to cover, it's specifically about SaaS companies, because there are a lot of SaaS comp