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Zach has the honor of sitting down to chat with Mary-Frances Winters, the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., about black equity and power. Mary-Frances shares some of the top things she believes that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts and explains her perspective on why chief inclusion/people/culture officers are typically white folks. Check the links in the show notes to find out more about The Winters Group!Connect with Mary-Frances on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:https://bit.ly/2Bs8pZBhttps://bit.ly/2ZXoMYlhttps://bit.ly/3csD9qbLearn more about The Winters Group on their website. http://bit.ly/33pqotqCheck out the Inclusion Solution blog.https://bit.ly/2yX2quXYou can connect with The Winters Group on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Links in order:http://bit.ly/2WrDjtghttp://bit.ly/3d69LYhhttps://bit.ly/2XUy6t7Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here or below.https://bit.ly/2Ug4l5KHelp food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.https://bit.ly/2WD73UkCheck out our website.https://bit.ly/living-corporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, it's Tuesday. The day of this recording is May 4th, so May the 4th be with you. We have incredible guests every single time we come on, and today is no different, because what we're trying to do is what we always do, right? Which is center and amplify marginalized voices in the workplace. Now, I would like to think Living Corporate is a little bit unique in that we're having these conversations, but not only are we having these conversations that are centering marginalized voices, but we're having these conversations with marginalized identity groups, right? So a lot of times when you think about this diversity, equity and inclusion space, it's folks who don't look like me using fairly esoteric, like, heady language to describe things that they really don't experience, right? Like, not to put too fine a point on it. Just look... I'm just gonna be honest, right? Just gonna be a straight shooter, okay? And I'm proud of the fact that we've been able to have incredible guests that have not only the lived experience but have the practical knowledge and expertise to talk about real subjects, and so that's why our tagline for Living Corporate is real talk for a corporate world. Now, look, some of y'all have been listening to us and been rocking with us for a while, but every episode is somebody's first episode, so I just want to make sure I kind of level set a little bit. So with all that being said, I'm really excited to have our guest today, Mary-Frances Winters. Mary-Frances Winters is the founder and CEO of The Winters Group, Inc., a global organization development and diversity and inclusion consulting firm with over 35 years--count 'em, y'all, 35... more than I've been alive--more than 35 years of experience. She truly believes that diversity and inclusion work is her “passion and calling.” She's been dubbed a thought leader in the field for the past three decades and has impacted over hundreds of organizations and thousands of individuals with her thought-provoking messages, and her approach to diversity and inclusion. Ms. Winters is a master strategist with experience in strategic planning, change management, diversity, organization development, training and facilitation, systems thinking--yo, shout-out to systems thinking--and qualitative and quantitative research methods, and she has extensive experience in working with senior leadership teams to drive organizational change. My goodness, gracious. With all that being said, Mary-Frances, welcome to the show.Mary-Frances: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. You're definitely dating me, but that's all right. I'll take it. [laughing]Zach: I apologize. I wasn't trying to date you. I was trying to speak to the depth and breadth of the work that you've been doing, 'cause I think a lot of times it's easy, you know--like, pausing on, just, like, this conversation, but kind of, like, thinking about generational tensions, right? So I think there's, like, a lot of frustrations sometimes with folks who--like, millennials, you know, folks, like, in their early 30s or even, like, mid-20s to late-20s crowd who just think that, like, all of these frustrations that we're seeing now are new, right, but there have been folks who have built foundations before us that allow us to actually move forward, so it's just incredible that you've been in this space and doing this for a significant amount of time. I don't believe that should be taken lightly at all.Mary-Frances: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I accept it with honor and respect, so thank you so much.Zach: Thank you so much. So how are you doing during this time? Like I said, we're recording this on May 4th. How are you and your loved ones?Mary-Frances: We're well, we're well. We're doing well. You know, it is unprecedented times. It's very, very difficult times for the world, but, you know, we're doing well, and thank you for asking.Zach: So let's get right into it. Diversity, equity and inclusion work is about marginalized identities, yet the loudest voices in this space tend to be those of the majority, right? So, like, when you think about these big, big organizations and you look at, like, the chief inclusion officer or the chief people officer or the chief culture officer, they're typically white folks. Why do you think that is?Mary-Frances: Well, I don't think that the dominant group sees diversity and inclusion as being about marginalized folks. They see it as being about everybody. "We have to include everybody," and so some of what my frustration has been, as you mentioned, 35 years, and so when we used to talk about it, you know, in the days of affirmative action, they were protected groups, right? So the initiatives were targeted towards those protected groups. When we started to talk about it as being diversity, then it broadened and everybody got included in diversity, and the group that gets least talked about now are black folks, because they don't want to talk about black people. So I don't think that the dominant group that controls the narrative, I don't think that they see it about being about marginalized identities only, right? And so the focus may or may not be there, you know, depending, and so we did a session for a client not too long ago to talk about the relevancy of white men in the organization. So, you know, you've got to be inclusive of white men. [both laughing] Yeah, so that's why I think--you asked me why I think that is? That's why I think that is, yeah. Because in the corporate world, we don't even use the word "marginalized identities." So it's not a new term in sociology, but let me tell you, 35 years in this business, it's a new term in the corporate world. It's starting to be used, and I think it is because of the influence of the millennials. We've been doing some work in some organizations that, you know, normally--some of these older, traditional organizations have been around 150 years and still got baby boomers at the helm, right? Some of these other organizations have been around 15, 20 years, they've got a lot of millennials at the helm. Those organizations are using this language, the social justice language. The traditional organizations? Not so much.Zach: [laughs] So one, thank you. I'm really curious--that really is a good segue into the next question I have for you about just you showing up doing this work as a black woman, and not to, like--again, not to age you, we're talking about the fact that--[Mary-Frances laughs] It's not like you're a black woman who just graduated from college and, you know, you're in this space, or you just finished B school, like, you're someone who has seen this space grow and evolve and change and shift and permutate, you know, various times over over the past three and a half decades, and so I'm curious, like, what does it look like for you to operate in this space, and then specifically going into the example that you just provided, how do you respond to narratives like that? That, you know, white men need to feel just as included as black men or other marginalized groups?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So as a black woman in this work, a cisgender heterosexual black woman, baby boomer, there are different ways it impacts me. So one way that it impacts me is "Oh, yeah, let's get Mary-Frances because she can bring the voice of black folks." Um, no. Mary-Frances brings her voice, not all black folks, right? That's one way. This other way is, "Gee, we really can't hire The Winters Group to do this--" This is a black person talking now. "Because you're black and I'm black, and, you know, the optics of it, it looks like we might be giving you, you know, preferential treatment." The third way is when I stand in front of a group, to the question about, you know, white men, I do--if my question is gonna get across, I do in some ways have to disarm white men, because they're gonna--they see me coming in with my sister locks and, you know, "This black woman is gonna come in and she's gonna tell us, you know, how racist we are. She's gonna make us feel bad," and so what I've learned over the years is that you've gotta get them to like you first. No matter what they've gotta like you, right? And they have to think that the message resonates. So I learned the language. I learned the language of the organization. I connect my message to whatever their business plan is, whatever their business strategy is. You know, I connect it to that, because, you know, you're already coming in being black, being a woman. So those are two, you know, marginalized groups, historically marginalized groups. And so yeah, so there are different ways. And, you know, we talk about code switching, right? So we have to code switch a lot of times in order to get the work done, particularly in corporate spaces. Now, I don't know if you've noticed--well, I'm sure you've noticed because you know my colleague, Brittany J. Harris, who is the vice president of The Winters Group, and we're doing a series right now in our inclusion solution blog on decolonizing DEI work, and, you know, part of that--and I wrote a couple of weeks ago about decolonizing particularly the corporate world with, you know, corporate speak. So you come in and they have to have a business case, and the business case has to be "How does this help my business, you know, perform better?" That's, like, the classic corporate business case, and that's kind of centering this capitalist narrative, right? We're about the profits, and you can [show?] me by hiring black folks and hiring women, whoever else you want me to hire. If you can show me that that can help me to sell more whatever I'm trying to sell, then it's okay. So I think that, you know, to some extent--you know, I was just talking to a very large client just before this--I will not name that client. Very old client, 150, 160 years old, you know, very old. [laughing] You know, middle of the country, and they're just trying to get this stuff off the ground and you come in talking about marginalized groups and whatnot to a bunch of these white men, they're just not gonna--it's just not gonna happen. So it's this delicate balance, Zach, of on one hand, you know, you have to be able to engage the groups that they listen, and on the other hand you're trying to dismantle, you know, this dominant sort of narrative that doesn't necessarily work, and it hasn't worked. 35 years, 36 years, all of the same issues that I was teaching and talking about 36 years ago are the same. As a matter of fact, my book Black Fatigue will be coming out in February. Black Fatigue: How Racism Erodes the Mind, Body, and Spirit comes out in February, and I have a chapter in that book, Chapter 3, called Then is Now, and so I go back and I look at data from whatever point you want to take. You can take it from 1965, 1975, it doesn't really matter what you want to take it. When you look at our data and our statistics, we have not made progress. We're stuck, and we're at this standstill. Brown vs. the Board of Education was 1954, which was desegregate schools. Our schools are more segregated today than then. You know, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. You know, all of this legislation, housing. In 1975, 43% of black people owned their own homes. In 2019, 43% of black people own their own homes. The net worth--and, you know, net worth is, like, what you're worth, right? Net worth. A single black woman's net worth is $500, versus the net worth of a white woman, single white woman, which is [$5000?], still low. The net worth of white people, at 150 something thousand dollars, is 10 times that of a black person, and it follows even if you look at college-educated. So somebody who has a PhD who is a black woman college professor with a PhD makes 20% less than a white man who has a PhD and 7 to 8% less than a woman who has a PhD, and so all of these inequities--and I'm using those just as an example--is about Then is Now, that we haven't really turned the corner. So we're fatigued. [?] And it's particularly tiring for me because, like you said, I've been doing it for over 35 years. [both laughing] I'm tired.Zach: You're absolutely right, and we've had conversations about that on Living Corporate, and we cite the study Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain that really goes into dispelling the myth that higher education will, you know, somehow close the wealth gap, and it hasn't and it doesn't. So let's talk about this. There's a variety of folks that we've had on Living Corporate who have said, you know, diversity and inclusion, corporate diversity and inclusion, is inherently [anti]-black, not just in its external doings but at the internal politics. Do you have any thoughts on the voracity of that position?Mary-Frances: Well, society is inherently anti-black, so by extension the corporate world is inherently anti-black. We live in a society that has historically and continues to be anti-black. I don't know--yeah, so I agree. [both laugh] I mean, right? So yeah, you know, D&I is inherently anti-black. It is because that's the society--you know, when I wrote this book Black Fatigue and I was telling people about this, "Oh, please write about black and brown fatigue and, you know, all deference to indigenous people and native people and Latinos and everybody, right?" But the black experience in the United States has been different than any of those other experiences, and because of that the stereotypes and the marginalization plays out differently, and so I really felt a need--even though [?]--I show statistics for Latinos and Asians, you know, as well in the book, but I really wanted to focus on how this is playing out for black folks, because let me tell you. I say--you know, [?]--race is diversity's four-letter word, and particularly when you talk about black folks, people don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about the black and whiteness of it. "Let's talk about Asians. Let's talk about Latinos," right? So this anti-black--so that's one way anti-black plays out. You know, we have to include the other groups that we have [?]. I had a call with a client just on Friday, and they talked about how the psychologist or sociologist, whoever we were quoting--I forgot who it was--was black, and so we were like, "Uh, yeah," and they said, "Well, you know, perhaps we need to get some other experts included in this data set." What's that about? "Are there some Asian people who have spoke on this too?" [laughs] So yeah, I mean, we live in an anti-black world, and by extension our corporations are anti-black. I mean, look at things like the recent legislation around the CROWN Act. Why does anybody freaking care how I wear my hair? Why do we have to have legislation for people to be able to wear their hair--for black people to be able to wear their hair the way they want to wear their hair. You know, the young man wrestler, right, and they made him--Zach: Yes, made him cut his hair. His dreads.Mary-Frances: His dreads, right. Exactly. Right there. You know? I mean, why do you care? You don't have to like--what I say to folks is, "I don't care if you like it. You don't have to like my hair. I'm not asking you to like my hair." [laughing] But, I mean, are we still in a slavery, there's no freedom, that we can't even wear our hair the way we want to wear our hair? You know what, I heard about hair 36 years ago when I was in the corporate world and I had a very short afro, and one day a colleague--wasn't even my boss, a colleague--comes in my office and says, "Will your hair grow?" And I just looked at him and I said, "Yeah," and he said, "Well, you oughta let it," and he walked out of my office.Zach: Wow.Mary-Frances: That's why I left corporate. One of the reasons anyway. But anyway, so yes, is it an anti-black world? Yes, indeed. Indeed, it is. Unfortunately, you know, it is. And when you say that--and the problem is when you say that to white people they think that you're calling them a racist, and I'm not. I'm not. What I'm saying is the very foundation and structure upon which our various societies and the way we think and the policies and all those things are based on anti-black sentiments, anti-black beliefs if you will. Zach: You know, I'm really curious about, like--because you're right, we had Brittany Harris on the show some time ago, and we were talking about decolonization and dismantling and deconstructing systems, right? So it was more so about, like, kind of, like, trying to make some shifts and some headway in this work, because like you said, there's a lot of conversations that have just been happening, they've been recycling for years, and I'm curious to know, what are you seeing some other, like, DEI groups or, like, kind of names, things that they're saying that you're like, "Man, we've been doing that." Like, "We've been working on that," or "That's not new. Like, y'all think it's new, but it's not new." Like, does anything like that stick out to you?Mary-Frances: Yeah, I think that, you know, the whole idea of, you know, oppression, marginalization, privilege, all of those kinds of things I think have been out there for--you know, for a long time. You know, we can all remember--those of us in this work--Peggy McIntosh's White Privilege. Judith Katz, my colleague, did something on heterosexual privilege back in the '90s, and the Peggy McIntosh book was back in the '70s. You know, Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes, which shows, you know, bias. We now call it unconscious bias, but Jane Elliott, you know, put that out in, I don't know, the '70s, '60s or '70s. I was using that video--now that you've already dated me I'll just keep going with it--but I was using that video [laughing]--Zach: I'm so sorry. [laughing]Mary-Frances: No, no, no. You're fine, I'm just teasing you. [laughing] You know, I was using that video in the '80s, right? And now I hear people like, "Oh, do you know about Jane Elliott's video Brown Eyes, Blue Eyes?" And that's the other thing, [?] why I wrote Black Fatigue is because--and I'm not saying this is about millennials. This is not about generations at all thinking this stuff is new. This is about folks who are, like, in my age group to who this is all, like, a revelation, right? "We didn't know." So here, case in point. We know that COVID-19 is disproportionately impacting particularly black people, and when it came out, this proportionality, it was like, "Oh, wow, we have health disparities?" This is not new. I mean, these health disparities have been--they have been well-researched, well-written about, and they continue. They have not improved. Even middle-class black women are twice as likely to die in childbirth. You know, these are not new, and so that's what's part of, you know, the frustrating thing. You know, I really respect some of the newer folks who are coming into this space, and I think that they're doing remarkable work, and I'm hoping that perhaps they can put a different spin--I know Brittany, as a millennial, has brought definitely a different spin to our work. When Brittany came on board, which was, like, four years ago now I guess, we had started to talk about the intersection of social justice and corporate speak, because, you know, the language was all different, right? Everything was different. So we talk about mapping the intersection. What is the intersection of social justice and corporations? So corporations worried about the bottom line. Why should they be worried about, you know, social justice as well, and how do we get that languge? So I think at The Winters Group we're a little bit further ahead of mapping that intersection of saying that it's not one or the other. It really is a both and, because if you help to alleviate the social ills of this world or even of this country or even of the place that you operate your business, your business is going to be better.Zach: No, I'm right there with you, and I really think that segues well into this next question, which is just, you know, what trends do you see in this work from a thought leadership perspective, and if you were to kind of look across the landscape of this work and when you think about workplace equity as a whole, you know, where are the biggest places you think we have to grow?Mary-Frances: So where I see that we have places to grow in this work is fixing organizational cultures so that they truly are inclusive and we're not just using the word, that we're not just saying that we're inclusive, because the surveys that we do inside corporations would suggest that the cultures are not inclusive, particularly--PARTICULARLY--for black folks. Particularly. Now, when we do surveys with Latinos and Asians, culturally they may not be having a good experience, but they're not gonna tell us that because culturally they don't talk ill of--and I'm stereotyping, I know I'm stereotyping big time right now, but for the most part Latinos and Asians don't speak ill of their employers. That's a cultural thing, right? And so they're gonna say, you know, everything is good. We, you know, coming from a history of descension, a history of sort of laying it out there. You know, "No justice, no peace." Zach: Give us us free, yes.Mary-Frances: Yeah, right. We're willing to say, "No, this is not a good experience," if we answer the survey. We did a big survey for a corporation recently, and not many black people answered the survey. So then I did a focus group with them and they said, "Oh, no, we're not answering that survey. They can figure out who we are because there's only about 100 of us in the whole company." So the point is that organizational cultures, the traditional organizational cultures, are designed for dominant groups. They always have been. In the '70s when I was in the corporate world, they decided to bring in a whole bunch of black people, a whole bunch of black professionals, because they didn't have enough, and they just said, "Let's bring 'em all in here." Within a year, every single one of them were gone except one. There was probably about 30 people. Every single one of them left because the culture was not friendly, was not conducive. There were micro-aggressions all day long. [?] I told you about the micro-aggression about my hair. Here's another one. So the company sent me to some banquet or something, and I was sitting there--and I got to represent the company, so I was sitting at the head table, and we had a little fruit cup, you know, as our appetizer or something, and so the person sitting next to me said, "Oh, look at that, you have more watermelon in your fruit cup than anybody at the table." Now, why would you even say that? What would even make you part your lips to speak like that? Yeah. So you know what I did? I said, "Oh, you like watermelon? Would you like mine? I'll trade with you." [both laughing] So my point is that hasn't changed in 30 however many ever years that is. That hasn't changed. And so, you know, where we still need to grow is to really get at the culture, and the only way we're gonna get at the culture is to hold people accountable, and because the experience that people have in their organizations are 1:1 with their direct manager, right, and so if the direct manager is not talking the talk, walking the walk, it's not happening for that person. We often times focus on the top leadership, top of the house--"Let's start at the top of the house." I say that we need to focus on first-line leadership, those individuals who are most likely to have the greatest span of control. First-line leaders have more reports than the CEO. The CEO probably has six or seven direct reports, right? All the senior vice presidents, and then it goes down from there. So the biggest span of control and the biggest opportunity for change is at that first level, and we often times don't work with that first level of leadership because they don't have the budget for it or, you know, all of these other excuses. So I really think--and I've been saying this for years, so I don't know if this is a trend or not, but I've been saying this for years, that we have to get to that level. The other places that we still need to grow is pay inequity. You know, pay inequity for women and, you know, women of color in that equation too. That's an easy fix. You look at your data and you see who--if you have a disparity with women not being paid the same amount, then you fix it. You see, this is why if organizations wanted to do it, they could. Any aspect of diversity. If they wanted to do it, they would absolutely do it. So those are areas, I mean, in just terms of very tactical places, in terms of--cultures are really, really hard to change. So I had a call with a client this morning, and they had a question on the survey--they wanted me to review their survey. We have our own survey, but they got somebody else to do their survey, but they wanted me to review the questions. Here's one of the questions. "I fit in well at this organization."Zach: Hm, that's a good question.Mary-Frances: Huh? No, that's a bad question.Zach: Talk to me. Educate me why it's a bad question.Mary-Frances: Okay. Because it's about fitting in. Fitting in is about assimilation. Fitting in is about "I fit in," meaning that--Zach: I'm adjusting myself.Mary-Frances: I'm adjusting myself. I fit in, right? I mean, you still may get at it, but the whole idea of--even putting the language out there. So that's, you know, colonizing language, "fit," you know? Because what do we say when we hire somebody? We say, "Oh, yeah, they'd be a really good fit," and what "a really good fit" means is what? "They're like us."Zach: It's interesting, because the reason I was saying it's a good question is because I know a lot of--I know for me I would be like, "No."Mary-Frances: Right, exactly, and that's what they're hoping to get, but you see how the message could be from the other side, that you need to fit in.Zach: It absolves the organization of responsibility and onus in creating an inclusive work environment for that person.Mary-Frances: Exactly. So I said, "Why don't you have the question "I feel included at this organization?"" Right? I mean, you're gonna get the same answer, right, but you're now using language that is language that's about inclusion rather than fitting in, because fitting in is basically saying, you know, "Yeah, we need you to fit in. We need you to be like us." Zach: Okay, okay. Let's talk about black male presenting identities in this space, right? I could be speaking selfishly, but it seems as if they're still not highlighted with the same level of attention or nuance of some other people groups. Am I being fair? And, you know, if you agree with that, then could you kind of talk to me about why you think that may be?Mary-Frances: Yeah. So, you know, this is so interesting, because the chapter in Black Fatigue, it's called I Can't Breathe: Black Men's Fatigue, and I also have a chapter in the book called Say My Name: Black Women's Fatigue. So for the black women's chapter it's almost, like, twice as long as the black man's chapter, right? And I'm like, "Wait a minute." I said, "Is it because I'm a black woman and, you know, I relate to the experiences more?" So yes, and I'll tell you--this is the absolute truth. I am not kidding. I have been wrestling with this all weekend because I want to modify the chapter on black men to bring more of that voice. So with black women I could talk about, you know, #BlackGirlMagic, right? You know, what's the analogous movement for black men?Zach: There's nothing that big. I would say, you know, you have Black Boy Joy, but it's not as big, and there's some tension in that because a lot of black men are like, "Well, I'm not a boy. Don't call me a child. I'm a man." You know? So I'm not sure. That's a good question.Mary-Frances: So I write in the book about two experiences, two stories I tell. One story is about somebody who actually now--he has a degree in human resources, but he prefers to work with his hands, and he comes over and he tunes up our air conditioning in the spring and changes the filters and all that kind of stuff. So he was over the other day, and he worked for a large heating and air conditioning organization and was doing really well. They had him in their commercials on TV and everything and, you know, he said he just couldn't take it anymore. We would talk about entrepreneurship while he was still working there, 'cause he knew I was an entrepreneur and everything. So he finally left, and he's been on his own for 18 months, and he works 14, 16 hours a day. Nicest guy in the world. Got a young family, you know? Just really very customer service-oriented. He said, "Yeah, you know, when I go knocking on the doors, I've got to know how I'm coming," he said, "Because when they see that I'm black, you know, they get a little afraid." Ryan is all of 5'6" and, you know, maybe 150 pounds. He's a slightly built man. Zach: Slight guy, yeah.Mary-Frances: So he said, you know, "Why is this? Why do I have to exist like this, where, you know, I'm just trying to live and I'm just trying to, you know, run a business?" And he ran into--while he was in the corporate world, they told him one time that he couldn't get promoted because he was so good at his job that they needed him to stay in that job. That's why he couldn't be promoted, 'cause he was so good. [both laugh] Another time he was told that--he was promoting a particular service that they had, the air conditioning or whatever, and they said, "You're selling too much of this service." That's why he couldn't be promoted. So that's one. Another black guy, who had been with this organization for over 30 years, very well respected externally because he was in manufacturing and he has this particular knack for--he was called the turn-around man. He has a particular knack for going into a manufacturing operation and being able to, you know, whip it into shape, you know? The key performance indicators, the KPIs and all those kinds of things. I mean, he's a guru at that, right? [Lead?] manufacturing and all of that kind of stuff. And they would always send him to the place that was performing the worst, and he would go. So then they decided they were gonna put him in D&I, and this was after 30 years [?], so he's out of his element in D&I. He's gonna do his KPIs, he's gonna do his, you know, manufacturing operations. I think he turned just a few people off, right? So he ended up retiring early. No retirement party after all this. He's doing so well on the outside because he's got articles, he's got--he's well-known in this space, but he was kind of forced out of the organization because somebody didn't like, you know, what he said. So I think, you know, black men, one of the [?] chapters in my book, I have Tall, Dark, and Handsome, right? So when a white man is tall, he's paid more. When a black man is tall, he's actually paid less. The darker-skinned the black male man is, the less that he gets paid, right? Lighter-skinned black men get paid more than dark-skinned black men. So you take a black man who is tall and dark-skinned, you know, that feeds a whole lot of stereotypes, right? You know, and the handsome, you know, like I said in my book, black women [think they're handsome?, laughing] but the majority group probably doesn't. Not so much, right? But you're penalized. You know, black men are penalized, you know, for being tall. Black men are penalized for being darker-skinned. So my son, who is--he went to Harvard, Duke and Princeton, he studied under Cornell West. He is now a tenured associate professor of religion at Duke University. So when he was a kid he was always big. Joe's about, like, 6'5", so he was always big, and they always told him, you know, "You're gonna hurt the other kids. You gotta, you know--" So he's this gentle giant now because he was told, you know, "Don't be too aggressive." Up until the fourth grade there was something wrong with Joe all the time. We had to see a psychologist. You know, he just wasn't adjusting right, and he just da-da-da-da. All of these things. You know, he was in a white school district and usually the only black kid, one of two in his class. So in the fourth grade he had a teacher, he was a white male teacher, who said, "You know what? I think the only thing wrong with Joe is that he's brilliant." He said, "That's the only thing I think is wrong with him." And as soon as Joe started to see himself as brilliant and everybody else started to see himself as brilliant, guess what? Joe become brilliant, and voila, Harvard, Duke, Princeton grad, but if somebody hadn't told him that he was--[?], right? And so Joe writes about hip-hop and religion. He writes about the African-American experience. His book is--you might want to interview my son. His book is called "Hope: Draped in Black," and--Zach: I'd love to interview him, yeah. Let's talk about it offline for sure.Mary-Frances: Yeah, but what he talks about is how you hold hope in the wake of, you know, all of the oppression and whatnot. But, you know, we talked this weekend about black men and about, you know, the hip-hop culture and the gangster and, you know, the rape culture, and we talked about all of that and how that plays out and, you know, why that is, and yeah, it's--black men are very complex, very complex, and they have been, you know, obviously treated the worst. So it's tied up in self-concept. It's tied up in a whole lot of--and what one study found is that black men who have a good self-concept and are also able to figure out how to navigate, you know, the system, they do well in a corporation, but you've got to come first with a good self-concept, and I think, as quiet as its kept, all that bravado sometimes with black men, you know, "Show me some respect" and all that kind of stuff, you know, and "I'm all of that," I think underneath is really a lot of trauma.Zach: Oh, I agree with that. I think you're 100%, I mean, just spot on, and I also think, you know, when you think about black men in this space--it's interesting because black men and white women have something in common, where black men are black, yet they benefit to a much lesser degree, but they still benefit to a degree, from patriarchy, and white women are women of course, but then they benefit from white supremacy. So there's some dynamics there that are nuanced, and yet in a way that black women don't. So black women are women and they're black, right? So it's like, okay, there's no pool that you can pull from or there's nothing that you can really pull from a position of privilege. Of course you have able-bodied privilege, and if you're cisgender and all those things, but I'm talking about, like, just at a high level. So then--but I was gonna say that, you know, it's hard to talk about that because black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's like, "But it shouldn't be hard to at least try to engage in the subject a bit more intentionally," because, I mean, it hasn't stopped white women from being the center of attention for diversity and inclusion efforts for decades.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. Yeah, no. I think you're right, and so in the book Black Fatigue I question whether, you know--so to a certain extent yes, I guess I would agree that black men benefit from patriarchy, but it's more intra-culture than it is inter-culture.Zach: Right, 'cause black men ain't out here about to just be out here disrespecting white women at work.Mary-Frances: Right. Yes, there you go. Yeah, not unless [?]--nobody better know about it anyway, right? [laughs]Zach: Well, shoot. [laughs] Well, and that's the thing that blows my mind. Like, I had a conversation. I'll never forget. This was some years ago. I had a conversation with somebody who tried to, like, insinuate that the reason why I spoke so much at work was because, you know, I was the only man, and perhaps because as a man I'm used to dominating conversations. And I said, "Look, I might be the only man in this space, but I'm also the only black person in this space, and certainly the only black man," and I said, "So if you think that the reason why I'm quote-unquote dominating this conversation is because I'm a man and y'all are a bunch of white women, that's false." I said, "I would actually be more akin to being quiet," as it took me time to find my voice as a black man in white spaces. I said, "I would challenge you to ask why you would use the language that I'm dominating anything by simply raising my voice in a meeting," right? But there's, like, this--I agree with you. I think that there's a, like, lack of nuance when we talk about even how patriarchy is mobilized for black men. I think black men are benefiting from patriarchy with other black people. They don't benefit from patriarchy, like, from--like, if it's me or Karen, Karen is gonna win out.Mary-Frances: Right, exactly. And for reasons like I was saying earlier. These studies show, you know, a tall--you know, you've got your stature if you will, that's a negative. You've got the color that's a negative, right? And so yeah, in white spaces, I think that it is an intersectionality in white spaces. You're black and you're a man. It's a marginalized identity.Zach: So, you know, your colleague Brittany Harris, VP of learning and innovation at The Winters Group, who we've had on in the past, has said that power is the silent P in this work. I'd love to hear more from you on the concept of power and how it fits into this engagement of workplace equity.Mary-Frances: Yeah. I mean, it is very much at the center, and it's complex, and when folks have power, why would they want to give it up? So I am not a proponent of power and privilege discussions with novices in this work. So folks who have not--I'm talking about people who are trying to teach, people who are trying to teach who have not had years of kind of understanding how all this plays out, I'm not in favor of going in and telling them that they have power and privilege. Yeah, I have it and I want to keep it. [laughs] Right? I mean, why would someone want to give that up? [?] Black people standing in front of a bunch of white men talking about, "You have power and privilege." Yeah. And so [they're?] like, "Yeah, what's wrong with that?" [laughs] I mean, they don't say that, but. And the other thing is how do they relinquish that power? I mean, that's really difficult to do. And the other problem that I have with that--so yeah, there's this inequitable power dynamic, but the other problem that I have with that is that we are accepting that we don't have power. We're rendering ourselves powerless, right? And so in the corporate world what is the key term? Empower. We want to empower our people. E-M, right? Empower, right? That is somebody giving you their power. So this is part of the corporate speak, you know, that I don't like, right? It's part of the dominant culture of corporate speak. I should have written about that one in my book. I might still. Anyway, I want to turn that around, that E-M to M-E. Me power. I have power. And so we have agency, but we don't take it. We don't use it because we have internalized that we don't have the power, we don't have power, and we cannot continue to--this is one of the trends I'd like to see, not to continue to talk to folks about power and just use our power, not to magnify the inequities. So everybody knows that if you're a white man in a corporation and whatnot and you're the manager or the leader or the director or the whatever, everybody knows you got power, right? [laughs] You know? You gotta tell me you have power? Why you gotta tell me that? Right? And so I think that there are other ways to claim power. I think that part of that is just the confidence that we come with, the self-concept that we come with. I think that we have to be ready to leave spaces, because there are consequences for us exercising power, and we have to have some safety nets, more safety nets than we have. So I left, you know, some 30 something years ago. I just stepped out on faith, I mean, 'cause I have a strong faith, and I didn't know what was gonna happen, but I just knew I couldn't stay there. We do know that black women, they're 40% more likely to start their own businesses than any other group, right? Because we recognize that it's traumatizing, and so this whole idea of--so who came up with the idea of power and power and privilege? White folks. To tell us that there's a power inequity... Surprise, surprise. And you know what? We're not gonna change that by telling white people that they have power. That is not gonna change that. The only thing that's gonna change it is for us to claim our power and to recognize that we have it. Zach: I love it. No, I'm right there with you.Mary-Frances: Right? [laughing] Stop telling white folks what they already know, that they got power. They already know that.Zach: No, that's true. Like, them not, like, screaming it from the rooftops doesn't mean that they don't know that.Mary-Frances: Well, exactly. Why would I scream it from the rooftops? Again, the dominant group, it's not something that they probably even--even when we call their attention to it, there are many who will want to say, "Uh-huh. And let me figure out how I'm gonna maintain it." There might be others who are curious. "Hm, there is this dynamic. Maybe I should, you know, do something to work on that," but the forces are so strong and entrenched, right, over 400 years of entrenchment, that it's not gonna change. You know, two or three or the small groups that you might get who are all for shifting that power dynamic, they're not strong enough to overcome that larger group who wants to maintain the status quo. So we just have to take it. We have to grab the power. We have to first of all understand we have it already. It's not grabbing anything. We already have it. We just have to use it and accept that there will be consequences sometimes for using that power, and if we don't have the strong safety nets in our community to, you know, accept and to protect those folks who, you know, get fired, you know, are out there, you know, being called out on social media because they're telling the truth or, you know, whatever it might be. We as a people don't support and protect our own as much as we should.Zach: Man, that's, like, a whole separate [?], and what we need to do is make sure we bring you back on when your book is closer to being published and talk about that, because I do think that, you know, how we--so, you know, we had Robin DiAngelo on some time ago, and she talked about white solidarity and the concept of essentially the formal or informal closing of ranks that white folks do to protect one another, often times at the detriment or harm of black and brown folks, and yet I don't--you know, because of colonization and because of just internalized oppression, you know, we don't have that I don't think in the same--Mary-Frances: We don't, yeah.Zach: And that's created so many challenges for us. I mean, since antebellum to today, right? Like, we've had so many issues because we don't necessarily practice to the same degree, protection of one another. So let's do this. You know, as you look across these leadership groups, especially during this pandemic, what are some of the top things you believe that majority leadership groups are doing today that undermine their own workplace equity efforts?Mary-Frances: They have not educated themselves, so they are not--they think that they know, they think that their good intentions are good enough. So I've heard leaders say, "I don't care if it's the right thing to do for business," you know, the business case that we talked about earlier, "I just think it's the right thing to do, so now go forth and do it." However, because they don't have an understanding of the history or they know the history that was told wrong, they really don't know what to do. So they're making wrong decisions based on ignorance or, you know, a lack of information. I think the second thing that majority leadership does, particularly in the corporate world, is that they still have to speak to and answer to shareholders, and so they're not going to do anything that is going to, you know, jeopardize that. And so even when you're looking at board members, and what I hear often times is, you know, "Oh, the board won't go for that," or "We've gotta satisfy the board." Well, you need to change the board then. The board may not be--you know, you may not have the right people, because boards are tokenized [when] they have one token black person and one, you know, token woman on the board, right? So those are two things, and I think during the pandemic, I think because of this ignorance they are just not aware, big companies are just not aware of the world that some of the folks on the lowest rung face, and so when you say, you know, "shelter in place, stay home," that home may not be safe. That home may be filled with violence, right? You know, you make decisions about "Who are essential workers and who are not essential workers?" and you don't--you know, are you thinking about the health--again, talking with a client today, you know, talking about some of their contingent, you know, workforce, and they were saying, you know, "Well, are we gonna pay the sick pay or aren't we gonna pay the sick pay?" You know, [?], and so all of these kinds of questions, and they realized that "Yeah, we absolutely need to do that," and so I don't think that there's enough understanding of what marginalized groups face regardless of their socio-economic. So they're making decisions from their own lens, from their own--I'll use the word privileged--from their own privileged lens, and they're missing things. It's coming to light, right? A lot of this stuff is now coming to light, but some of the earlier decisions missed just the horrific impact that this is having on everybody, but particularly those who are in the lowest low end of the economic chain.Zach: Mary-Frances, this has been an incredible conversation. You know, I'd love to make sure that I give you space to talk a little bit more about The Winters Group, what you're most excited about, what you're looking forward to, even during times as uncertain and extraordinary as these. I'd love to just give you space to talk a little bit more about your company. Mary-Frances: Yeah, so we're looking forward to, you know, transforming ourselves as we always do, but this pandemic has made it absolutely imperative, and we've already been doing virtual learning, but we are looking at innovative ways to do virtual, ways that other people are not doing virtual. You know, we have whiteboards, and we have ways that we can break people out into groups. Like, the technology allows that, but I think the ways that we're doing it--we're doing simulations, and so I think this is an opportunity for us to be really, really innovative in terms of how we deliver our message. I did a virtual keynote, you know, a few weeks ago. I think it's also an opportunity for us to continue our [?] of the corporate message and the social justice message, because they have certainly come together with COVID-19 in terms of just what I was just talking about, how we see how marginalized people are even more marginalized. You know, as the saying goes, "When the world gets a cold, black people get pneumonia. When the world gets pneumonia, black people die," and so we're seeing that now, and I think it's the opportunity for us to even more strongly advocate for the intersection of social justice and corporate.Zach: Man, thank you so much, Mary-Frances. This has been phenomenal. And y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. You know we do this every week. Coming to y'all with real talk in a corporate world. Make sure you check us out everywhere, okay? So you pull up your Google or your, I don't know, Bing, or your Yahoo or whatever search engine machine you're using, and you just type in Living Corporate. We're gonna pop up there, okay? Make sure you check out the show notes. Make sure you check out The Winters Group. Check out all the work that they're doing. Shout-out to The Winters Group and all of their incredible work. Shout-out to black women out here holding everybody down per usual. Thank you for all of your work. And shoot, 'til next time, we'll catch y'all. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Mary-Frances Winters, CEO and founder of The Winters Group, leadership, diversity, equity and inclusion consulting firm. Been out here laying the groundwork for y'all, setting legacies, and [they're] probably your favorite consultant's favorite consulting agency, okay? They've been out here. They've been doing the work. 'Til next time. Peace.

Zach sits down with former StubHub and Facebook alum Bärí A. Williams to chat about intersectional identities. Bärí also talks about her upcoming book "Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege, and Bias" dropping March 31st. She shares what inspired her to write it and talks a bit about the challenge she faced in efficiently categorizing so many intersectional identities when it came to the 25 people she interviewed for the book.Pre-order Bärí's book on Amazon.Connect with Bärí on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. Check out her personal website by clicking here.Find out how the CDC suggests you wash your hands by clicking here.Help food banks respond to COVID-19. Learn more at FeedingAmerica.org.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? This is Zach with Living Corporate, and, you know, you know what we do, right? It's a Tuesday. Hopefully you're bunkered in somewhere, not panicked--what's the word? Oh, using an abundance of caution and, you know, keeping away from folks that don't wash they hands. You already--okay, anyway, we're not gonna talk about that. The point is you're taking care of yourself. Maybe you're listening to some smooth jazz and you realize, "Oh, snap, I need to listen to the Living Corporate podcast," and here we are, so what's up? You know that we are centereing black and brown voices at work, and we do that by having authentic conversations with folks across a wide array of industries, okay? I'm talking about energy to transportation to telecommunications. I'm talking about lawyers and doctors and professors and, shoot, hourly employees, activists, influencers. I mean, anybody really, as long as they're willing and ready to really talk about the folks that are most impacted, most marginalized, in this world that we live in, and today is no different. We have Bärí Williams on the show. Bärí Williams, you know, she's a lot of different things to a lot of different people. You know, for me to try to, you know, wrap that up in a quick little intro would be inappropriate, so we're gonna get to know Bärí in this conversation and talk a little bit about what she has going on, and we hope you enjoy it. And with that being said, Bärí, what's up? Bärí: How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, I'm doing really good. I know we were talking off-mic about, you know, staying rona free. Bärí: Man... that rona.Zach: That rona. [both laugh] It's not playing doe. They said Chuck got the rona?Bärí: Yeah. Yeah.Zach: Chuck got that rona... When Tom Hanks--Bärí: Tom Hanks got the rona.Zach: When Tom Hanks--when Tom Ladarius Hanks got the rona I said, "Okay, we need to slow down."Bärí: Fire yourself. [both laugh] Tom Ladarius. But also yes, because he's from Oakland.Zach: He's from Oakland. And this is the thing, when he called [?] I said, "Oh, okay."Bärí: Oh, no. So here's the thing. The funny part about that is Tom Hanks was in my uncle's graduating class, in the same high school and all that. So that's a real thing. Like, Tom Hanks knew about [?].Zach: Man. Well, see, I knew--so, you know, the apple don't fall far from the tree.Bärí: That doesn't explain Chet Hanks though.Zach: We not gonna talk about Chet? [laughs]Bärí: I don't have anything for Chet.Zach: Man. Boy, that blackness went away when he realized his parents was sick doe.Bärí: Right. That patois was gone.Zach: That patois was--I didn't hear--no patois ting--[laughs]Bärí: "Mom and Dad are sick, guys. Thanks for your prayers."Zach: Snap. He was tatted up doe. But yeah, [laughs]--Bärí: He tried.Zach: He did, he did. But yeah, okay, okay, okay. Look, there's a variety of things we could talk about, right? Like, a lot of stuff is going on. This is not typically a current events podcast. I do want to talk a little bit about the book that you have.Bärí: Yeah, yeah. Out March 31st. Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Get Your Conversations Poppin'. I interviewed 25 different people, and what was super interesting about it was it was 25 people that I picked, and I got probably five or six interviews deep and I told the editor, "Hey, I know we want to segment these into five different categories, but all of these people are intersectional. So you can figure out where you want to put 'em. I'm not gonna make that determination." Because who am I to say that somebody being LGBTQ and Christian outweighs, you know, maybe how they're genderfluid or express themselves? I'm not gonna--Zach: Yeah, you're not gonna rank that.Bärí: Yeah, or how when I talk to two black women in the spirits industry I'm not gonna rank whether they feel that they're black first or a woman first. "So you put them where you want them, but here they are."Zach: You're absolutely right. I mean, I think when you force--I think about, like, Feminista Jones. Like, she talks about this from time to time. It's, like, this idea that you make black women choose between their femininity, their womanhood or their blackness, and, like, that's violence, right? Like, you need to let people be all of who they are.Bärí: I totally agree. I would say what's hard for me with that though is that I can only speak for my experience, but I have always been black first, and the reason being is that all of the experiences in my life would not be different if I were still black and a man, and that's, like, wow.Zach: Let's talk about that. Break down that down a little bit for me.Bärí: Child, we can talk about it. My mama literally just texted me and said "I feel asleep reading your book. This is really good. I didn't know people were out here living like this." [both laugh] But yeah, I feel like--and I've been told this before, and it probably isn't a secret to you. I can have a bit of a dominant personality. [laughs] And that is--but I feel like that is not abnormal for black women. Period. Zach: It's not. My mom is like that.Bärí: Exactly, and my mom was like that, and my son's mom is like that. Which means me. [both laugh] So... I mean, if you're used to it you know how to deal with it, but the harder part, at least for me, is working within that framework in a corporate environment. What does that mean, to be a strong black woman in a white, predominantly male, sort of passive aggressive environment? And the answer is I still don't know, 'cause they say they want one thing, and then when they get it they're like, "Ooh... this is a little-- This is more than I thought."Zach: Well, I think a lot of folks do say that they want certain things, but it's like--you know, when you finally experience this, particularly when it comes to--you know, people say they want diversity, they want inclusion, and it's like, "Yeah, but until you're--"Bärí: Until it makes you uncomfortable.Zach: "You're in a room and you're doing a presentation and then three people who don't look like you raise their hand asking you a bunch of questions that you weren't prepared for. Then all of a sudden you ain't really like that," right?Bärí: Yeah, that's exactly it. And, like, I touch on that a lot in the book. So, in the book, it's segmented into five different categories. So it's Race, Gender, Age and Ability, Religion and Culture, and LGBTQ. And when I say that there were only--I interviewed 25 people. I actually interviewed more than 25 and let the editor decide what she thought--the editor was also a black woman, which was, like, fantastic. So, like, she got me, and that's very rare, particularly in publishing. And she read it and she was like, "Yeah, these are really, really good, and this is hard to figure out where to put folks," because you have people who are, you know, dealing with issues around culture and race, and then you have issues dealing with, you know, sexuality and race, and then you have people dealing with gender and religion, and so yeah, where do you put them? So out of the 25 people that we ended up selecting, in the end, only two sit cleanly in one bucket, and what was interesting about that is they were both Asian men. Zach: Okay, yeah. Bärí: Everyone else, you know, fit into multiple categories, and that's one thing we talk about is, like, how do you navigate being in multiple categories and fitting into a predominantly straight white male able-bodied world?Zach: And, you know, I think also, like, it pushes up against this narrative of, or just this binary mindset that we have about everything, right? You're either this or you're that or it's this or it's that, and it's like, that's just not the way the world works, and, like, people are really complex, but I think, like, part of, like, this decentering of whiteness, particularly white male straight able-bodiedness, is forcing people to realize that not only--like, these concepts are not new. It's just that certain things are happening now where you can't ignore those non-white male groups anymore.Bärí: Yeah, and I think people are very, very uncomfortable with that, very, and so part of it is in the book there are takeaways from each chapter. There are key--it starts with definitions in terms of, like, what are some things you're gonna see in here that people have said in their interviews that's gonna be prevalent and super relevant? Like white saviors, okay? And I didn't feel afraid to go there. Like, I know some people are gonna be like, "Ooh, white savior? So you're insulting--" No, I'm not, but you also think you're wearing a cape and you can save us all, and that's now what we're asking you to do, and also, like, you need to know that you're doing this. It's white saviors, it's understanding the difference between, you know, being cis and--like, people just--just terms and things that people may not be familiar with and to get them comfortable with the idea of that terminology and then how to use it.Zach: I think that's really important too, right? So, you know, we talk about white fragility. There are different types of fragility too. Black men can exhibit a certain level of fragility. I think, like, people who are in any position of relative privilege--relative privilege, now. Relative privilege. Have a potential to exhibit fragility, and I think folks don't necessarily like being educated when they're wrong. So, like, having something, a resource... and, like, Google is free, y'all, so don't... but anyway.Bärí: Child, I tell people that all the time.Zach: [laughs] Even if, like, getting corrected in public or by another human makes you uncomfortable, I mean, you could at least--I mean, you could engage with your own fragility in prviate. But anyway, the point is, having a book--Bärí: I will tell you, my husband is a product manager for Google, and he works on the Android wearables team, so he doesn't even actually work for the search engine, but when I ask him a question and he thinks it's dumb, he'll just send me the link--I'm trying to remember the acronym, but basically the acronym stands for "Let me Google that for you." Zach: Yeah, somebody sent that to me one time and--like, but this is the thing about that... and that's cute, and that's your husband and stuff, but let me tell you something. I remember one time I was at work and I asked somebody a legitimate question--Bärí: If somebody did that to me at work though I would want to fight.Zach: I said, "Wait a second. Let me tell you what it's not gonna be. You gonna answer my question, okay?" Don't play. Don't play with me. [laughs] Bärí: Like, there is a whole song out here in the Bay that was made that's called "What You Ain't Gon' Do," so... [Zach laughs]Zach: That's 'cause if I didn't have to talk to you I wouldn't, so don't--Bärí: Go YouTube that, and you might want to make that the outro music, 'cause--[laughs] 'Cause yeah, it's fine for Jamie to do that to me, but if somebody else did that to me I would probably roll up on your desk. Zach: [laughs] "So explain this. Why did you send this?"Bärí: Right? "So let's talk, Bob. Let me tell you what you ain't gon' do."Zach: And what ain't gon' be. Okay, so no, that's--let me ask you this. So, like, what was the inspiration to write the book?Bärí: Many things. I think--and this is gonna be long-winded and, but I remember being five years old--and my mom is a retired teacher from the Oakland [Unified?] School District, and she and a couple of colleagues sat around our dining room table in our apartment and they created what ended up being the oratorical festival, which to our surprise was made into a documentary on HBO last month. And she didn't know and I didn't know, and she was like, "Oh, look at this!" And I was like, "Yeah! Also, why are you not in it?" But I let that go. I let that go. I'ma let that go and let God. [both laugh] And she actually--what's funny about it is she was like, "I don't care." Like, if somebody's talking about this and it still exists, like, that's enough. Like, that was her goal. And so I remember sitting there looking at that, and I remember participating in the first year, and I won in the first grade for, like, my category, and I was like, "Did you rig this?" And she was like, "No," but what it did was it gave me a voice, and she cultivated that throughout my entire life when I wasn't, you know, doing debate time in high school and junior UN League. Like, all of that. So I always felt like I had something to say and, you know, everything doesn't deserve a response. I mean, I'm still learning that at 40. [laughs] But she taught me, like, when something does deserve a response, make sure you have a very calculated thing to say about it, and so I started to do that, and then I decided to write, and it was writing articles and op-eds in New York Times and Fast Company and Fortune and Forbes, and it made me think, "There's a [?] there, and there are things that people are not discussing in these tech companies that I see because I'm in them, and we can't fix it if more people don't know it's a problem." So that's what led to it, but it was more than that. It was like, there are other people going through different struggles and different departments in other companies, in other industries, and what does that look like? And that's why I ended up talking to, you know, two black women in the spirits industry. The spirits industry is dominated by older white men. And these are two, you know, 30-something-year-old black women with their own spirits, and they're Christian, and so that was one of the things where I told the editor, "I don't know where you want to put them. Do you want to put them in race or gender or religion?" But yeah, they've had people ask them in their church, like, "What are you doing? This is wrong" They've had people talk to them in the spirits industry, like, "Hey, girl, do you know what you're doing?" You know, they get it on all levels, and then I was talking to [Rabya?]. She's fantastic. She's the woman who did the defense for [?] in... what is the name of the podcast? I'm blanking now. That's terrible. Serial, and she talked about being, you know, a woman, being Muslim, wearing a hijab, and people--she knows she's a good attorney, but people would want her to write the briefs and do the background work but not show up in court. Zach: It's interesting, 'cause that's the kind of stuff--there's a pattern of that, right? Of exploiting black labor or using black folks' thought capital, wringing them dry for it, only for you to then take center strage and publicity and really interface, right? like, you see it--I'm sure that you've--'cause you've [?] in tech. Like, you've been with StubHub and Facebook. Like, you've been all over the place, right? Like, you've seen where, like, a lot of times black folks will come from, like, these HBCUs or, like, with these engineering degrees and then, like, work in the back in security. Security, y'all, is not--like, not tech security. Securing the building. Anyway. [?, both laugh]Bärí: I will tell you the funniest thing to me when I got to Facebook was it was 2014--Facebook started in 2004, so it was 10 years afterward. I was the first black woman in legal. There weren't black people in legal, so I was the first black person and the first black woman. There were no AKAs at all in the company, so I was the first AKA in the company. They had no Links in the company. I was the first Link in the company. Like, what are you doing? Like, if you want a highly qualified workforce, Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated will get that done for you, The Links, Incorporated will get that done for you. And there were only, like, three Deltas in the entire company.Zach: Shout-out to my sorority sisters. What's up, y'all? You know, and my mom is also an AKA, but you're really repping. Like, you really got on this podcast and, like, inserted that plug. I respect that. I like that a lot. Bärí: You know, plug plug plug, but that's the thing that I wanted people to understand too was, like, if you want a highly qualified workforce--and yes, they may not have direct, on-point experience, but we all have analogous experience from doing this non-profit work, and that's the thing that people discount or don't see. So, like, you want to hire Brad in accounting and he, like, did an internship for two months at his dad's firm. Like, what do you value?Zach: Right? Well, when you start holding them accountable--so when you hold them accountable to the standards that they give you, right? So if you say, well, "You know, you don't really have X, Y and Z. Show me somebody else who does have X, Y and Z experience." Bärí: Yeah, show me what's comparable. Zach: Yeah, and they pull 'em up and it's like, "Yo, this person was... he was, like, a DJ, or he worked at a GNC. Like, what are you talking about?" And so then things just crumble because it's like, "This is not about this." Like, you're creating rules--Bärí: Yeah. Like, that's not really what you want, and that's fine, but, like, let's call a thing a thing.Zach: I think, again, it just fits the meta narrative of white people, like, creating new rules for marginalized people. Bärí: Well, it's something that I actually told a long bost and said, like, every time I hit the benchmark, you move the goal posts. Are you aware of that? And he was like, "What are you saying?" And I said, "What I'm saying is what I said." Zach: I just said it, first of all.Bärí: Yeah. Like, child, when I tell--and that's the thing, like, my mom should've never told me I should advocate, because I literally said, I was like, "No. I hit this benchmark, and you told me if I did this it would be that. If I did X, it would be Y, but now you're saying, "Hm, but in order to get to Y you really need to do--" And I was like, "Nah, bruh. You said this, and I have it in writing." And I did that. So now what are we doing? And he was like, "Why are you so angry?"Zach: What do you mean?Bärí: I was like, "What do you mean? I'm not angry. I'm just telling you this is what you said and now you're going back on it," and he's like, "But you're angry," and I said, "I'm not angry. I'm just holding you accountable, and maybe you're not used to that, but that's also not my job. Like, that, you should go home and talk to your mom or your wife about that."Zach: But you know what though? Like, just as a thought exercise, let's just say I am angry. Okay. Bärí: Then what?Zach: Then what? I am angry, because you said you were gonna do something and you didn't, or you said it was gonna be one way and it isn't, or I have written documentation and you're gaslighting me by acting like this isn't real. So yeah, maybe I am angry. Does that make my point less valid?Bärí: And it doesn't. Like, these are stories that people go through in the book about how people gaslight them in the same way, whether it's about them being a woman or about them being black or about them being LGBTQ. There is such a powerful story in there from a woman who's Asian who talks about, like, how her family essentialy made her feel like she had to whitewash herself to be successful, and then when she got to college it was like, "I don't know how to relate to Asian people now." And then when she got in the workplace she's like, "Now I have to relate to both, and how does that work?" I mean, that's real. Like, you know, how you're socialized is how you end up projecting yourself to the world.Zach: That's right, unknowingly or unknowingly, and that's the scary part, right? Like, you end up doing this thing, like, where you're raised. You're just growing up. Like, you're raised a certain way, and then you hit the real world and you realize like, "Dang, I have a lot of internalized depression and, like, I didn't even know that." Bärí: Mm-hmm, and that is--that honestly is one of the--it's funny, 'cause my son, he's now 9-and-a-half, but when I had to finish this book towards the middle of October, I was so tired. When I tell you, child, on the last day before I had to hit the bit I was like, "Ugh." I stopped to watch, like, a Real Housewives marathon, and he came to me. He was like, "What are you doing?" And I was like, "Excuse you?" And he said, "Mommy, what are you doing?" And I said, "I'm taking a break." And he's like, "Are you done yet?" And I said, "Do you understand what break means?" And he was like, "Well, you let me take a break, but you give me a time. Like, you've been watching this for, like, three hours. Have you hit Send?" And I was like, "No, I haven't," and he's like, "Okay, so then you get one more hour and then you need to finish." But to me, what I took that as was, like, he wasn't being defiant, he was actually imposing the rules that I put on him, which I was like, "Oh, so my parenting isn't totally failing."Zach: No, he has internalized that level of accountability and he is giving you that same energy back.Bärí: Yeah, but the same energy I had to give him was, like--I listen to so many stories about, you know, marginalized communities, interviewing these folks, particularly black men and their experiences, and you don't get to mess up, and I've told him that, and so he's like, "Why are you sitting here watching a Real Housewives marathon for three hours? You haven't pressed Send. Like, girl, get it done." And I was like, "Okay, yeah. You're right." But it's that same energy. Like, you have to be twice as good to get half as far, and that story was all of these people in the book, which was crazy, because it cuts across everything. It cuts across disability. It cuts across sexuality. It's like you have to make up for who you are by doing more work.Zach: You know, I think about a conversation we just had with Ruchika Tulshyan, and we were talking about how black men are often times left ot of the corporate D&I initiatives, right? So now, sometimes people think they're being really radical when they talk about "the angry black man." It's like, okay, I get it. That is a thing, and that's real, but, like, just the larger conversation about how black men are treated, and like you said, we don't have opportunities to mess up, and the same thing could be said for black women of course, for sure. It's just this idea of labor and, like, having to do more just to--Bärí: And you're not getting farther. It's just--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Thank you. It's like, "I'm not doing more to get further or to get farther ahead. I'm doing more just to be equal. I'm doing more just to receive what I've earned," right?Bärí: I can tell you, my husband, he interviewed at a former employer of mine. My husband is 6'6" and, like, 235 pounds on a good day.Zach: Oh, he's lean lean.Bärí: Eh... I said on a good day. [laughs] But the way that he's built though is, like, very Michael Phelps. So he's broad. So he looks bigger than he is, and the feedback that they had is--and also, because of his size and because he is black, he has been socialized--and also he's light as hell. Like, I've had people ask me multiple times, "Oh, so your husband's biracial?" No, he isn't, but people just assume that he is. And so based off of his profile, he's very light-skinned, he's 6'6", he's built like a swimmer, and people--so he has been socially conditioned to basically... I don't want to say tamp down who he would be, but he's more docile. Super reserved, which is why our dynamic works, because I'll be, like, the person in your face, and he'll--Zach: Yeah, it's tough to be big when--yeah, I've learned that in a variety of different ways, but yeah. I keep that--I would say I'm probably more like you, Bärí. I'm like, "Ayo," but I'm like, 6'2", like, 280, so I'm like, a big dude. [laughs]Bärí: And you know that scares people.Zach: And I'm not that--and I'm lighter-skinned, but I'm not, like, light-skinned, right? So it's like, you know.Bärí: And that is so scary for me with our son, because our son is--he is darker than I am, and I'm brown-skinned, and he's already 5 feet and he's 9. Zach: Yeah, he's gonna be a big boy.Bärí: Yeah, he will be. And I believe he'll be taller than his dad, and even if he isn't, it's like, if you are 6'6" and you're a brown-skinned boy and you're in Oakland, I have to keep you safe. And so everything I do is about "How do we keep you safe?" And that sucks, 'cause, like, I wish you could just be free, but--Zach: And it's not... and not even to be a super downer, but I say this as someone who, shoot, maybe by the time of this podcast my daughter's gonna be here, but, like, I think about having black kids in this world and, like, there's the physical safety, but then there's a certain level of, like, psychological safety that you really can't protect them from, and, like, there's certain things they're gonna just have to--again, I'm not trying to be fatalist or, like, super down or whatever, but they just have to go. They're just going to have to experience. And it's, like, the feeling of being isolated or alone or otherized or not quite fitting in spaces. Like, that's a thing, right? That's a thing, and somebody that I really admire--like, there are a bunch of folks I really admire, but I think about, like, Bomani Jones, right? Like, he's somebody I see, like, in these spaces, and he never, like--on his platforms, like, ever talks about being one of the onlys or whatever. And some people are just built like that. He's just like, "I don't really whatever." He doesn't come across, like, really vulnerable in that way, and I don't know--and this is not about Bo specifically, but I think about, like, other black men in media or, like, in these really big profile spaces, and I wonder, like, to be successful in these hyper-white spaces, do you just have to have, like, a certain level of just, like armor, and just almost be really calloused?Bärí: I think you do. That's one of the things also that I learned from doing interviews in the book, and that's not even unique to us. Like, the folks who are dealing with LGBTQ gender issues and gender expression, they had to deal with that in terms of, like, people questioning them and, like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Like, all of that stuff. And full discretion, like, I know Bo. Like, Bo and I are cool, and we've had that conversation, and part of it is like--to your point, it's not intentional. He doesn't mean to not say that. He just is like, "I am who I am, and you're gonna take it or you're not." And honestly, I've talked to him and have said, like, I want that energy for my son. I don't want him to feel like you have to have the burden of all black people ever on your back. Like, [?] does Bo, but he still reps us, and that's what I want, and that's what I want. Even, like, that I see with my husband. It's funny because I look at him--we're very, very different. He has had probably every advantage you can have in life. Like, he has gone to private school since he was born until he graduated. Like, he literally went to private pre-school, then he went to a private elementary school, private high school, he went to Harvard and then he went to Stanford, and I was like, "Bruh. You do not know, like, what it's like to live in, like, a real dorm." But he still came to--like, and he's from here too. He's from Oakland and came back and, like, tried to get in the valley and couldn't beat down the door. [Zach: Hm.] Right. And this is what everybody says that they want, right? These credentials. [Zach: Yeah, you know, he's checked every box.] And also, this is a light-skinned dude, right? So he's less-threatening. Zach: Right, and I'm sure he talks very proper. He enunciates his words well.Bärí: Child, I call him MC Carlton.Zach: So, like, literally his only knock is that he's black, and light black at that. Diet. [laughs]Bärí: Well, not even that. Also that was one of the things--so when I said my former... I had an employer who interviewed him. He got to the end of the round, and they decided that they didn't want him. They cut him. Like, they were hiring between him and one other person. They cut him because they said, "Oh, he didn't show enough passion. He wasn't willing to bang on tables." So when they gave me that--no, no, no, when they gave ME that feedback, I said, "Okay, so let's stop and envision this. Do you want a 6'6" 235-pound black man banging on tables? You're gonna be comfortable with that?" [Zach: And they said what?] They were like, "Well, what are you implying?" And I said, "I said what I said."Zach: Yeah, don't play with me. I'm not implying anything.Bärí: I said what I said. I didn't imply anything, I just said what I said. So if you saw that, you would feel safe? You would be cool? Zach: I mean, real talk. Would you? Answer the question.Bärí: They were like, "I mean, he just didn't show passion," and I was like, "That's not what I asked. What I asked was that if you saw a 6'6" bald black man banging a table to motivate engineers, you're cool with that?" And nobody could answer it definitively, and I was like, "And that's why you didn't hire him, so thank you, and I'ma go catch the shuttle." Like, I'm not gonna participate in this. This is bull. Zach: Yeah, this is ridiculous. It's super ridiculous.Bärí: 'Cause he's super reserved, and he's super reserved because he knows that he is a large black man and he can't do that. Zach: I remember I applied to--this is when I was first getting into consulting and it was between a few different firms, and one of the firms--and they were all, like, Big 4, right? So one of the firms I applied to, I went through the process and they said, "Oh, he was too passionate. He was too excited about the job. He smiled too much." So I'm just laughing at you, laughing at this situation, because it's like, okay, so you can't win for losing, right? I literally was the one smiling talking about how excited I was, and they said, "Well, he looked like he knew what he was doing, but he just seemed a little too smiley, a little too excited. He was a little too passionate for us." Bärí: But if he had been extra excited y'all would have been like, "Oh, my god. The black guy scared me because he's so big." [Zach: Exactly. [laughs]] And what I hate about this is, like, having to teach my son these rules of the road, because it's different in certain ways. He has my complex--actually he's darker than my complexion and he has his daddy's stature, and so you're gonna be extra targeted because you are a super brown boy and you're gonna be very tall, so you have to be on your P's and Q's at all times. Zach: Yeah, you're not wrong.Bärí: And he's so mad, because he does Kumon in addition to his regular schoolwork, and he's like, "Ugh, Mommy, I'm tired all the time," and I was like, "What do you think my life is? What do you think your daddy's life is? What do you think brown people's life is? Like, that's what it is, and like, I hate to tell you that, but you have to do more and do it faster and do it better, and you're gonna have to do it even faster and even better than your dad, because your dad gets some sort of benefit from having been, you know, a Harvard legacy, and he's light-skinned. Like, when you're light-skinned--light-skinnned [?] go farther, I'm sorry. It's true.Zach: We have yet to talk about colorism on the podcast, like, explicitly, but we need to talk about it because--Bärí: Let's talk about it. We can do it right now. [both laugh]Zach: I want to respect your time 'cause we went over, but nah, it's a global phenomenon, right? And I think, like, it goes beyond just, like, the African diaspora.Bärí: That's true. That's so true for our Indian comrades. That is very true for our Latinx comrades. Like, that's just the truth.Zach: I was in the HEB. HEB, for the folks who are not in Houston, is a huge grocer. So I was in HEB and I was getting some different, like, sauces and stuff, and I was in, like, the cultural food aisle and walked right on by some lightening cream. You know what I mean? So it's super common, and I think, like, even when you look at, like, these corporatized D&I groups, the Latinx folks are typically European--like, white-presenting, you know what I mean? Like, they're not, like--you don't see a lot of... again, it's common, but because it's so pervasive and--I don't want to say subtle, 'cause it's not subtle if you're paying attention, but it's just common, right? Like, the lighter-skinned people... it's hard to be dark and in power, you know? Bärí: Yeah, and that is for me just a personal thing that I want my son to embrace, and the reason being is, like, you know, everybody--my mom is light-skinned, and my dad was not, and they got divorced when I was three, so I don't even remember--like, I have no memory of living with them together, and so it was really my mom and her family, and everybody in her family is light-skinned and I'm the only brown person, and I was like, "What's going on here?" Yeah. But what's interesting here is my husband is light-skinned and I'm brown. Our daughter is lighter than my husband and our son is darker than me, so it's like... they don't match at all. [laughs] Zach: I love that y'all have, like, a whole kaleidoscope going though. Bärí: We do, and we actually have shirts. I have a whole shirt. Like, I need to send you one. It's real--it's ghetto. [laughs] It's a unicorn throwing money [?], and there are different shades of the unicorn, and I picked the different shades off the people in our family. So yeah, but I mean, like, get this money. Do this work. You can do it whatever shade you are. That's my point. But for him, I want him to understand there's gonna be different restrictions for you, because you're likely to walk out of here one day when you're sixteen and you're gonna be 6'6" and you're gonna be super brown, and you're really fine, and people need, you need, to be aware of the danger. And then opposite is like, "Your sister is light-skinned. She has very loose, curly hair, and so people are gonna treat her in a completely different manner and think she's fine even though she may not be, and--" Not that I'm saying she's not cute, she is, but I'm like, "You know, people--" Zach: Yeah, there's biases that come with being [?]. Yeah, there's a certain aesthetic that she could fit into that then makes it easier.Bärí: And she does, and I want to make sure that she doesn't buy into that and, you know, that's what we're dealing with her, and that's what I deal with in the book, like, how do you handle this? You have people in multiple categories. What are the proper terms? What are the issues that are around them? How do you deal with it? Like, even something as simple as the fact that I literally have never had braids or crochets or anything in my entire life, and I decided to get it last summer because I was tired of doing my hair and then my daughter's hair. And my daughter has a looser curl than I do, but her hair is thick. Like, I'm not spending three hours on a Sunday doing this, so I took her to the salon so that they could do it, and then I started getting crochets, but now she's like, "I want to go to the salon!" So now it's like, okay, now we have to reset in terms of privilege, right? Because everybody doesn't get to go to the salon. Like, my momma did my hair until I was 13, so holla at Grandma. [both laugh]Zach: So let's get back to this book, right? It's coming out March 31st. Eye-opening interviews. The goal is to help jumpstart conversations about identity, privilege and bias, y'all. The book is called Diversity in the Workplace. Listen, y'all, make sure you check it out. Right now, maybe because of that rona we might be having these conversations on Zoom or Skype. I don't--Bärí: Now, I think you're gonna be quarantined 'cause of that rona anyway, so you might as well read this while--Zach: You definitely should. You know what, why don't you challenge yourself?Bärí: And there's an audiobook version too if you don't even want to read it. Somebody can just read it to you. Zach: Come on, now. Like, challenge yourself to read the group, and then that way when you go back to work--Lord say the same, the rona won't be here forever, okay? So you eventually will have to go see people, right?Bärí: I mean, the rona won't. It will be replaced by something else.Zach: Oh, goodness. You're right though.Bärí: I mean... it's Trump, so...Zach: Yeah, that's true. [laughs] Bärí: Something else might kill us in the meantime, I don't know.Zach: Who knows? I don't know. They said they got all these locusts over in Africa. There's, like, hundreds of billions of them over there. I don't know.Bärí: I saw that too, and I was like, "What disease are they carrying?"Zach: Listen. Bärí: Okay, I'ma let that go. Zach: Shutter the thought. [laughs] So look, y'all, this has been Living Corporate. We do this, right? We have conversations. We're really excited and we're thankful--you know, all jokes aside, please make sure you're washing your hands, okay? We have information from the CDC in the show notes. You know, hopefully you're washing your hands as you listen to this podcast. Like, wash your hands, okay? Soap is important also. Now--Bärí: Very. Water is not--Zach: Water is not soap. I want to--hold on. Sound Man, put that little record scratch in here. [record scratch] Water is not soap, okay? So you want to use some--you know, use the hard, industrial stuff. Use that Irish Spring if you need to. I personally use [?] because I am bougie, but you can use--Bärí: I use Olay, but, you know, whatever.Zach: Use something that is frankly a little abrasive, okay? Get that first, like, half-layer off your skin. Like, wash your hands, y'all. And then, you know, just take care of yourself, you know? Fist bumps and head nods only. You know, this would actually be a good opportunity for allyship and learning.Bärí: Well, here's the thing. So even with the fist bumps... so with the social distancing blah-blah-blah, it's supposed to be six feet. If you bump into someone, no, you're not within the six feet.Zach: You know what, you're right, no fist bumps. So this would be a good time actually for those--Bärí: Head nod at people and wave.Zach: So we all know how to do a head nod, but this may be the time for my less-melanated folks, my aspiring allies, to learn how to effectively head nod. Don't throw your neck out of your body when you do it. Bärí: Oh, I didn't know that was a thing.Zach: Just nodding too hard, right? Like, the head nod is supposed to be subtle, nuanced. Right? Like, maybe it's a cultural thing. I feel like in the South, like, our head nod is different, and I definitely believe, between the various melanin levels, head nods can be various levels of aggression. That's all. That's all I mean. Maybe a little salute also, with two fingers at the head. Just "Hello, I see you over there." But just be careful. Take care of yourselves, and we'll get through this together. In the meantime, make sure y'all check out the links in the show notes as well for Diversity in the Workplace: Eye-Opening Interviews to Jumpstart Conversations about Identity, Privilege and Bias written by Bärí A. Williams. Until next time, y'all, this has been Zach. Peace.

Zach has the honor of speaking with Howard Bryant, an award-winning author and senior writer at ESPN, about what prompted him to write his latest book, Full Dissidence, and how he landed on the title, and Howard also talks a bit about some of the differences between power and money. Howard also touches on his coverage of Colin Kaepernick's workout, and he graciously shares his concerns about the direction of this country, particularly in the area of journalism.Connect with Howard on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and don't forget to check out his website.Learn more about Howard's latest book, Full Dissidence, by clicking here.Interested in finding out more about Howard's other books? Click here to be redirected to his Amazon page.Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we do. Every single week we're having real talk in a corporate world. We do that by what? Having authentic conversations with black and brown thought leaders, activists, educators, executives, recruiters, entrepreneurs, anybody really who's willing to center underrepresented experiences in the workplace. And man, I'm just really excited, because this week we have Howard Bryant on the podcast. Howard Bryant is the author of nine books, the most recent being Full Dissidence: Notes From an Uneven Playing Field, and he's contributed essays to 14 others. He is a two-time Casey Award winner for best baseball book of the year, and a 2003 finalist for the Society for American Baseball Research Seymour Medal. The Heritage was the recipient of the 2019 Nonfiction Award from the American Library Association’s Black Caucus and the Harry Shaw and Katrina Hazard Donald Award for Outstanding Work in African American Studies awarded by the Popular Culture Association. He has been a senior writer for ESPN since 2007 and has served as the sports correspondent for NPR’s Weekend Edition Saturday since 2006. In 2017, he served as the guest editor for the Best American Sports Writing anthology. He has won numerous awards, as y'all should've heard by now, [laughs] and he was a finalist for the National Magazine Award in 2016 and 2018, both for commentary, and earned the 2016 Salute to Excellence Award from the National Association of Black Journalists. In addition, Mr. Bryant has appeared in several documentaries, including Baseball: The Tenth Inning and Jackie Robinson, both directed by Ken Burns, and Major League Legends: Hank Aaron, produced by the Smithsonian and Major League Baseball. Mr. Bryant, welcome to the show, man. How are you doing?Howard: I'm good. Thank you for having me.Zach: Man, thank you for being here. Let me start off by saying I was familiar with your work because, you know, I'm an ESPN consumer, but it was over the past few months in your--and really, like, frankly the past over a year or so of your coverage of Kaepernick, but particularly the workout that had me really investigate your work and pre-order Full Dissidence. Can we talk a little bit about what prompted you to write this book and how you got to the title for the book?Howard: Well, I think that the first question is... I think time, you know, got me--when you work on projects and when you write, it's an organic process in so many different ways. You don't really even know what you're gonna be working on, but the environment around you begins to dictate an urgency, and things start telling you that, "Okay, these are subjects--" As I always say, if an idea comes and goes, it's really not that important. If it keeps staying with you and keeps staying with you, then you have to pay attention to it. And what was happening I think in this country, if you start to look at the accumulation of the election of Barack Obama followed by Trayvon Martin followed by Jordan Davis and Ferguson and Eric Garner and all of these different things that were happening, also then followed by Kaepernick and then followed by the election of Donald Trump. You've got so many issues here that you have to pay attention to, and especially as African-Americans, you feel certainly that--the racial component of all of these ideas hit you close to home. They're not just topics. It's not just a subject for you. And I think for me what was really becoming more and more clear was that they were all connected and that the connectedness of it told you that there was something else happening that you need to explore, especially--to be more specific, I would think certainly the 2016 election made me think--it made me re-examine the relationship that I had with my white friends and my white colleagues and the people that I grew up with and all of these folks that you associate with who, in so many different ways, would want you to believe and that you would want to believe were your friends for life or that you had great relationships with and that you had great professional relationships with, and then you get to a place like this, you know, election-wise, and you start to see the gap, or when you start talking to your white colleagues about policing and you start hearing how wide the gap is between you, and then you start looking at the gap as well between what was being said about--you know, about America and its post-racial potential during the Obama administration, and then you go from that to this presidency. It just made me look at all of these different components as a black man, and you had to start reassessing the relationships and what they meant and what it meant for me personally.Zach: Man, that's just a really--well, thank you for that and the context. You're absolutely right. I recall--it's interesting because I've had long-standing relationships with white folks, and I recall during the election, leading up to it and then of course after the results, having certain conversations that I just made a presumption that we agreed about or that I would just think that--Howard: "We're on the same side."Zach: [laughs] Right? And then you have a conversation or you say something and you say--you know, you have a point of view on something that's pretty pointed or matter-of-fact, and then not to get that same level of acknowledgement back almost like--you know, you might say something like, "You know, this is clearly wrong," and then, you know, you get back a "Well, is it? I don't know." Howard: They're like, "Oh, is it really clearly wrong?" Yeah. I mean, for me the first moment of it was October 1st, 2008, and I remember this specifically because I was driving to Logan Airport in Boston. I was going down to Atlanta to go to Hank Aaron's house. I was interviewing him for my Hank Aaron biography, so I remember the date clearly. And I was on the phone with a friend of mine who I had known since we were in middle school, and she was--you know, she's a white woman, and I'm driving to the airport, and we were talking, and at some point she sort of said out loud that Sarah Palin was far more qualified to be president than Barack Obama, and that stopped me--I almost drove off the road.Zach: That would've stopped me dead. [laughs]Howard: Right? So that was the first moment where it was like, "You know what? You can't assume anything," and it really started to begin this reassessment. And it wasn't simply that we had differences of opinion. You can vote for whoever you want to vote for and I can vote for whoever I want to vote for, but the issue was more about values, and it was more about what's being said and how white people are able to balance these viewpoints and the values of these people that they're supporting and still be able to consider themselves great, great, close friends with black people, and it struck me that the reason why they're able to do this is because for them race and politics and these things, they're just topics. It's just a subject, and--Zach: They're like thought exercises, right?Howard: Well, exactly. And it may be more to them on some level, that it's not just a topic because you care about the dolphins or you care about the environment or you care about whatever, but what it is is that they're able to co-exist. They're not line-in-the-sand "I can't hang out with you" issues. It's like, "Okay." The thing that had struck me was the number of times that you've had people talk about, during the impeachment, the end of democracy, and they would use these apocalyptic terms. You know, January 21st, 2020, the day democracy died, and then in the very next sentence talk about, you know, "I can't believe how my Trump-loving friends are--" You know? I'm like, "Well, wait a minute. If you're able to break bread with these folks, and you're able to just flip the switch that it's a difference of opinion, then it's not apocalyptic." Apocalyptic means I need to make life and death choices here. I need to make survival or non-survival choices. That's what apocalyptic means to me. It means the apocalypse is coming, right? And so for me I was realizing that as a black man and as a writer and somebody who thinks about these issues as more than just topics, I wanted to re-assess the people in my life, and I wanted to re-assess these issues, and I wanted--and I think one of the things in the book that was so important to me was in that re-assessment I couldn't help but keep coming back to the importance of where Colin Kaepernick fit in this in the first chapter. I remember right when the election hit I said to a bunch of friends, "A lot of relationships are gonna change after this day," and I was really in some ways talking about myself. But what I meant about Kaepernick is here was a guy who hadn't played football since 2016 and yet he still finds himself completely at the center of the culture. He still creates or elicits such an enormous physical response from people, and my question in that first essay, what Colin Kaepernick taught us, was really to ask one major question. I mean, there's a bunch of different ideas in that essay, but one of the overarching questions for me was why is it so important for this culture to destroy this man? It's bad enough that he's not playing football, the fact that when Nike rehabilitated him with just a commercial, one 90-second commercial, you had people trying to boycott Nike. Zach: Burning it. Burning clothes.Howard: Exactly. You had people--and they weren't just people, they were law enforcement, retailers, people in the mainstream. People in positions of authority.Zach: Institutions, yeah.Howard: Exactly, going out of their way to make sure that this man didn't have anything. So you didn't want him--so it's bad enough that he's not gonna play, right? Okay, so he lost his livelihood there. You don't even want him to have a source of income.Zach: "We gotta destroy his character."Howard: Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask this question - "Why is this so important?" I mean, supposedly this is America where everybody is able to have their opinions and that's what makes us different from these other countries, you know? They don't lock you up and kill your family and do all of these different things for disagreeing with government or disagreeing with institutions, and yet you're trying to destroy him. You're not trying to take his life, but you're trying to take his livelihood, and that struck me as important.Zach: Howard, it's interesting, you know--the line you just said, "Why is it so important that we destroy this man?" That was something that you actually said--you said it on air, [laughs] and so--Howard: Yeah, on Stephen A.'s show. Zach: Yeah. [laughs] It seemed like you were, like, the--it was, like, you and I'ma say Bomani Jones were, like, for me, the only black men I saw in media initially, right? So people came back. Like, other folks--Shannon Sharpe came back and he said, "I was wrong," but initially you and Bomani Jones were the only black male voices that I heard in the sports space, like, either defend or objectively discuss Kaepernick when the whole workout situation came up. Was there tension there because of that? It just seemed--and maybe because of me, I'm on the outside looking in as a consumer, 'cause I really--I was watching, and it was your tweet thread that I was sharing with all of my friends and my colleagues and my network and everything about "Hey, this is what's going on. Look at what Howard Bryant is saying. He was there at the workout," but it seemed as if you were, like, one of, again, two voices really not kind of following the same cadence of questioning Kaepernick's content, questioning his motivations, questioning his ability. Am I off-base by saying that?Howard: No, you're not, and I was concerned--and let's be honest, you know? I'm concerned about the direction of this country, and if you are concerned about the direction of the country, you have to be triply concerned about the position of black people. Because if things are going bad, you know we're gonna get it worse. And so to me, one of the areas where I had the most concern is in our journalism. It's very basic stuff, and I was concerned, and disappointed in so many ways, during, you know, my time down there in Atlanta and the coverage that followed, because I didn't do anything remarkable. I did what we're trained to do. It's simply journalism. But it shows you where we are in the culture. It shows you where we are as a country. If people treated that like there was some--like I went above and beyond the call of my job. I just did my job. That was it. The job was to go down there and find out what was happening and talk to people and find out what the deal was. That's it. It wasn't like it took any great deal of courage to go do that. You went down there, you talked to both sides, you found out what both sides' positions were, and you recognize--because we're not, you know, stenographers, you don't [write?] them both equally. You also put your brain in the middle of it, and you filter out what is accurate, what is inaccurate, and sort of how this deal and how this workout fell apart. The problem was, and the problem is of course, that Colin Kaepernick is a lightning rod in so many ways, but you also have a media that is so tilted towards the powerful. You've got rights holders. You've got relationships. You've got business relationships that, you know, are going to overwhelm, in some ways, the journalism. I had an interview the other day and somebody said to me, "Well, I think on balance, when you look at everything, Colin Kaepernick has really been lauded and appreciated and celebrated by media," and I was like, "Are you out of your mind?"Zach: That's not true at all.Howard: I said, "I find Colin Kaepernick's position to have been distorted from Day One."Zach: Absolutely. Yes.Howard: Because every person that goes out there and talks about the military when Colin is talking about policing is inherently distorting his message. If you're talking about, you know, being American or un-American, you're distorting his message. I never felt like he was being treated fairly in any of this because the message kept getting distorted, and we're supposedly very, very smart people, so it's not that complicated a message. Zach: You know, and it's interesting because--so to your point around distorting the message, even from the jump when he said, "Look, I'm protesting police brutality and white supremacy in this country," I don't recall anyone ever zooming in on the white supremacy part, like, in the punditry or the media talking heads, right? Like, we would zoom on--Howard: Well, why would they? They're the bulls-eye. He's indicting them. He wasn't indicting police only, he was indicting them as well, and I think that one of the big issues that struck me in this entire sort of story, and also one of the reasons for writing the book, was the fact that the idea--over the course of my lifetime, all 51 years of it, the American flag was always a symbol of aspiration, just like the Statue of Liberty is a symbol of aspiration. "Come here and you can do better. Come here and you can improve. Come here and you can go as far as your ability and talent takes you," and it was always aspirational when it came to race. Even, you know, your white friends would look at you and go, "Yeah, I know it's not fair, but we're better than we were," and "I know it's not--you know, this isn't right, and we've got a long way to go, but we're better than we were," right? That was always the message that was sent to me. Today the flag is no longer aspirational. The flag is a symbol to be obeyed, and if you don't obey it, you're un-American, you're a traitor, you don't deserve anything, and that is a fundamental shift. And that is a fundamental shift that I would point back to 9/11. And so when you start looking at what this country is, if the attitude is "If you do not obey, then you are a traitor," then what does that mean for black people, where the rules and the laws have needed to be changed just to give you a shot at what we call the American Dream? It puts us in an incredibly difficult position and, in a lot of ways, a position where--you hear what the president has done along the Kaepernick story, which is to essentially say "Well, maybe he doesn't belong here." It's to say that you aren't American. It's a very dangerous place.Zach: Well, you're absolutely right, and going back a second, I know one thing--one thing that trips me out is when folks say, you know, "We're not what we were. We've come a long way." It's like, "Look, if where you started was y'all can't sit at a lunch table with us, y'all can't use the bathroom with us, and now we can... that's not a long way," and, you know, it's almost like if your team was--I feel like Bomani Jones said this example, like, years ago. Like, if your team was, like, 0-16 last year and now y'all are, like, 2-14, it's like... there's been progress, but is that really something that we want to celebrate? Like, we still have--we have so much further to go that why are we even talking about this? Let's just continue--Howard: And also do I consider it progress because you're willing to treat me like a human being? What did I actually earn?Zach: That part.Howard: What have I done? I mean, what has been earned here? What has been gained? So this conversation isn't between you and me. This conversation is between you and you, you know? This conversation is between you not giving me rights and you creating a culture that denied my rights and you relenting a tiny bit so now I get a little bit of rights, but my situation hasn't really changed. This is between you and the mirror. Zach: So in your book you talk about the role that fear played in NFL players not supporting Kaepernick in his protest, right? And this was interesting to me in real-time, because I am--I'm a younger professional. I can't say I'm young, Howard, 'cause I'm 30. So I'm not, like, young, but you know what I mean. Like, I'm younger.Howard: Yeah, you're pretty young.Zach: I'm pretty young, right? So I'm moving around, and this was a few years ago, so I'm in my mid-20s, and I'm looking at all this in real-time and I'm like, "Dog, these guys got--these are millionaires, right? Why are they not--you know, they have acc--" In my mind, 'cause I'm--again, I'm in my mid-20s. I'm making, like, I don't know, like, 60, $70,000, so I'm a quote-unquote "average guy," and I'm confused because I'm trying to figure out why it is that they're not speaking up, but in your essay you highlight some of the differences between, like, power and money. Can we talk about that a little bit more? Because I think it's easy for folks to presume that if you have money you naturally have some amount of power.Howard: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that what we've got here--there's a couple of things that take place, right? And you can think about this as aspirational and think about it as progress, or you can assess it in any way that you'd like, but the question that I've been asking myself is--sports is the only industry that I can think of, and that includes music and entertainment, where there is famous men and famous women who are labor but still make millions of dollars. Tom Hanks makes $20 million per picture. Samuel L. Jackson, you know, $20 million per picture, and so--you know, Scarlett Johansson it's $15 million per picture, however much she makes per movie. So these are enormous, ball player-level sums of wealth, but sports is the only occupation that I can think of where we have this assumption or this instinct that management and the front office is supposed to resemble the workforce. It really is curious in that way, because if you look at farming, and you go fly out to California, there's a whole bunch of brown, Mexican strawberry pickers out there, and nobody is looking at them and saying, "Well, damn, the workforce is 70% or 80% Latino. How come the management isn't 70 or 80% Latino?" If you go to a strip club, there's a whole bunch of women out there making a whole bunch of money for the building, but nobody is saying, "Well, how come the women don't run the business?" But we do in sports. You know, 80% black men in the NBA, 70% black men in the NFL, and we say, "Well, why aren't they running the show too?" And the reason to me is the enormous over-estimation of money. It's because they make so much money we think they have power, but they're still just labor. They're incredibly well-compensated labor, but they're still labor, and sports is the one place, you know, where we over-estimate money, and we recognize, when we get to situations like Kaepernick's or you get to situations like hiring and you recognize, "Oh, there's a limitation to the money," that they're still paying you to provide a service to them. You're still a worker. You're still labor. There isn't, in their mind, the expectation that that's gonna translate into a pathway to management or ownership. It doesn't work that way, and I think people are finding out the hard way. Like, for example, you had asked me earlier the reason for the title "Full Dissidence," and the title, you know, simply comes from this feeling of recognizing that, you know what, it's not gonna necessarily happen for me the way they've told me if I do all these right things, and I think the NFL coaches are sort of having that full dissidence moment in their occupation. They're realizing that no matter, you know, how many Rooney Rules you have or how many assistant coaching jobs and how much experience I have that "that pathway may not exist for me," and I think from a working labor, occupational standpoint, it's a cold bucket of water in the face.Zach: I agree, of course. I think it's interesting because we have been--I know that I was, by my teachers, by black, brown, and white folks alike, that, you know, if you're good enough you can out-perform racism. You can out-perform--Howard: Yeah, exactly. Bomani brought up that point as well, that nobody has ever out-performed racism.Zach: And that, you know, if you get enough dollars, that financial capital will eventually translate into some form of white capital that you can, you know, leverage to get--Howard: To get a seat at the table. I remember when I was working on The Heritage I had a fantastically honest and frank conversation with Al Sharpton about this. So we're in his office in New York, and we're talking about this, and, you know, it's a despairing conversation in some ways because you're realizing, "Okay, well, where is the pathway?" And I finally said to him--I said, "Well, you know, Rev, maybe Michael Jordan had it right. Maybe, you know, for all the criticism that Michael Jordan gets, maybe Michael Jordan realized, even though he is an owner, you know, he recognizes that there's not an open pathway to ownership and you're not necessarily gonna get a seat at the table, so maybe the goal is to simply get as much money as you possibly can, that money is the one thing that they're willing to give you. They're not gonna share the power, but they will give you the cash. So maybe you should work on getting as much of that as you can, and that's gonna buy you at least the individual and the family freedom to live a better life." And Sharpton said, "Well, you're right, you're right... but you're still a coward. Even though you may be right, that still makes you a coward." [Zach laughs] Zach: I'ma keep it a bean with you, 'cause I was talking to my people, right? And I just said--I said, "Dog, Howard Bryant is a real one, dog. Like, he's out--" And you're right, you're right. You were saying that you were just doing your job. You were just doing your job by going out there and reporting the facts, but doggone it, man, you was looking like Fred Hampton in these streets, man. Like, you were the only--Howard: Well, and that shows you where we're at though. It says less about me and more about us.Zach: Yeah, the system. No, you're absolutely right. I do feel like we're able to see the capitalistic jig really clear in sports, but do you believe that it's exclusive to sports, or do you think that, like, the patterns that we see in terms of how these systems are all--how they work together in certain ways transcends just, like, the sporting arena?Howard: No. I think that--one of the reasons why I did Full Dissidence was because there's so much overlap that you needed to pull outside of sports, that what was happening in sports is the exact same thing that's happening in the culture, and the difference is--the reason why it was important to pull some of these ideas out of sports is because people treat sports like it's the toy department. They don't treat it seriously, but yet if you took some of these exact same ideas and brought them into the workplace, into the corporate, into the white collar, then people might look at them differently, and people might view it as, "Oh, now this is serious." You know, the reason why you don't look at it very seriously in sports is because 1. sports is entertainment for a bunch of people, and 2. we dismiss sports because the players make so much money. So it's almost as if "Well, because they make money, they can't have any grievance, any gripes, any concerns, any thoughts, any contributions." So absolutely I think that things are overlapping each other, and one of the most important ways that they're overlapping is the way that the corporate side and the military side know how important sports is because you've got so many bazillion channels on TV now. You've got so many different ways that the culture is separated. Sports is the one place where everybody's watching the same thing. You watch the Super Bowl, you still got 100 million eyeballs on one event, and you don't--it's not The Tonight Show anymore, you know? Or it's not the old days where everybody's watching MASH or Happy Days or All in the Family, but when it comes to sports people are still watching, so they know that's where the eyeballs are. So sports becomes actually more important. There's a reason why, when you're watching the NFL, you see all of the flags and the fly-overs and the military and all that, because the military is actively using sports as a recruiting tool because there are so many people looking at it.Zach: So you talked about 2008. That was certainly a pivotal year. I think about 2008, and I also think about 2016, right? You had the end of an era with Obama, of this [sarcastically] post-racial utopia, and this--Howard: Which it wasn't.Zach: [laughs] Thank you for--I appreciate that, because there will be folks, Howard, who won't pick up on the sarcasm, so thank you.Howard: Mm-hmm.Zach: And then we had the formal election of Trump, right? And Kaepernick was in the forefront in the concept of his protest, the ongoing discussions about policing--a lot of those discussions came more in the center. Ta-Nehisi Coates and his writing also became more, like, actual talking points. Like, it was an interesting year for black folks, and as someone who is in professional services as a consultant, I can say that you could really see the tone of the workplace shifting too because, again, we don't live compartmentalized lives, right? Like, you know, you just talked about sports permeating and everyone looking at it, and even if you're not a sports fan, those topics are becoming more and more mainstream, and I believe that all of these things came together, and even just the tone--just the way that black and brown folks were working and showing up and even, like, topics around diversity and inclusion, they changed, right? Like, those conversations became more on the forefront. You talked about a conversation you had with Reverend Al Sharpton. Can we talk about any other shifts that you've been seeing--you know, again, we talked about even your appearance on different shows and things of that nature. Do you feel as if you've felt shifts as a black journalist dealing with either white journalists or other black journalists as it comes to concepts around dissidence?Howard: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, and I think that the problem that you have in sports is that sports has been telling you one of the biggest lies for pretty much all of our lives, that sports is the place of the meritocracy, sports is the antidote to racism, that it doesn't make a difference if you're black or white, it doesn't make a difference if you're Latino or Asian. If my score beats your score, I win, and that's the American Dream right there, right? That's why sports was at the center of integration, you know? If black people can fight in a war, how come they can't hit a baseball? Right? And whoever's got the fastest 40 time or the fastest 100 time, they win. There's your meritocracy, and yet you find out in sports, when you look at what's been taking place in this business, that it's really no different from anywhere else, and I think that the hard part that people of color, you know, especially black people find in the workforce is they're finding that that shift is hitting them directly, and it's hitting them in places where they may not have anticipated. I'm very nervous for your generation. I'm very concerned about young, black professionals in the business today, for some of them whose first election was Obama, you know? That was the first year they were eligible to vote, and the expectations that they have, and even the elites, you know? The black students who are going to the Ivy League schools and to the Harvards and also to the Dukes and the Stanfords and the rest of these--you know, Vanderbilt and these other elite schools, and then they get into the workforce, and then they find out that things haven't changed, that they thought they were different. They thought that these old ideas didn't apply to them because we had treated the Obama election as such a demarcating line, and in retrospect it turns out to have not been such a demarc--in fact, what it did was it was a retrenchment. It was a reminder historically that whenever black people receive some form of victory, the backlash is harsh and swift and very severe and very clear, and in discovering that, I wonder what your generation and what that generation of black professionals, how they're gonna deal with it, this expectation of equality, this expectation that they are going to be that first black generation where merit actually does count. And then you find out in the corporate world, you walk in, and whether we're talking about sports with the Selig Rule or the Rooney Rule or the lack of black college coaches, or then you walk into the white collar world and you realize who's getting promoted and who's not and the diversity and inclusion initiatives and all of that, and you do have to ask yourself the same question over and over again, and that is if you need a policy to tell your bosses to even--not even hire, but just to interview people, you've got major, major, major problems, and you're not anywhere near as ahead as you think you are. Zach: Howard, and that's why--and, you know, I'm not a sports journalist, right? So I would say I am a casual consumer of sports, but that's--the Rooney Rule, just from, like, a human capital, change management--'cause that's my space, right? So just from, like, a business perspective, I found the Rooney Rule to be disingenuous at its heart, because it's like, "Okay, you're just saying that we have to interview people." I don't believe that correlates to you actually hiring more people, and we have tons of evidence--and, like, it's like the Rooney Rule continues to come up every handful of years about, you know, how effective is it really, and yet we haven't changed it. But it's like, "You creating some formal rules to interview typically black men for these coaching roles doesn't actually address the heart of the matter, which is that you don't inherently see these individuals as leaders of people."Howard: The question is, for the corporate world, and I've asked this question numerous times when I do these types of stories, are you grooming me to replace you? Because if you're not grooming me to replace you, then all of this is performative. Do you look at me and are you willing to have me be the face of your institution? You know, that is not a hard question to answer, but it's a very hard question to acknowledge, because the answer is generally no. I have made this argument to people, and people don't like it because, you know, they think it's too political because they don't want to confront their own history, but you can just look it up. It's not hard. I've always told people that if you are anti-big government you are anti-black, and people say, "No, no. I'm just a libertarian." And I'd say, "No," which is also my way of being direct, because anti-big government is a clear Republican platform. Whether you're black or white, if you are a Republican who supports the shrinking of government, chances are you're a racist. And why would I say that? I say that because historically, if you look at hiring patterns since the end of World War II, the federal government built the middle class, the black middle class. The federal government, you know, in terms of hiring, in terms of civil service jobs, the federal government built the black middle class, and as you start to shrink those positions, you shrink the black middle class. Whether you're doing it by design or whether indirectly, the end result is the same, and what I'm getting at here, for your space, is that the private, corporate sector still does not routinely and prominently hire and promote black people. It still doesn't, and so if you're going to cut the number of government jobs, whether it's state, whether it's federal, post office, whatever you want to call it, you are actively crushing the black middle class. This is the reason why these diversity and inclusion initiatives are so important, because this corporate world is not making those hires, and because they're not making those hires and because they can't be compelled to make those hires, you are at the mercy of what you may what you want to call progress or what we know to be lack of progress. So at some point--like, for example, you know, I went--and I think there's an anecdote... yes, there's an anecdote in the book about this, that I was at a diversity and inclusion event in Boston, and all of these CEOs sat down, and it was amazing. The first panel had a group of really well-prepared women making their pitches about, you know, some of their initiatives they're working on, and they were all so prepared, and it was crazy because they were incredibly polite. So they were incredibly well-dressed. They knew this was a shot to be on a major stage talking to major players in their industry at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston. And they didn't interrupt each other, and they all did their presentations, and it was--you know, I understood it. It made sense. And then the next panel were the CEOs, and it looked like a country club. They were all wearing their suits, but they weren't necessarily--I don't even know if they were ironed. I mean, they just showed up because they're the bosses. They were in charge. Some of them wore ties and some of them didn't. They did not look at this like they were showing to this audience of black and brown women, you know? They weren't. It was very chummy. And they sat down, and they yucked it up with each other, and they cracked jokes and interrupted each other, because they were the bosses. They were in charge. And one of the most remarkable things that came across this entire event was when one of them talked about diversity and inclusion and promotions and talked about how it was easier for them to promote white men, because if white men in their offices didn't get jobs they were gonna make the biggest noise. They were gonna complain the most. They were gonna be the most disruptive. And the black women and the white women in the business were less likely to complain, which made it easier to pass them over for jobs. And it was a stunning, absolutely stunning, admission at a diversity and inclusion seminar.Zach: At an actual--targeted for this particular space.Howard: Exactly. Here was the beauty of this, which was obviously heartbreaking and painful, but it was the beauty of it. It was said so matter of factly that they didn't even know what they were admitting. They were essentially admitting that "No, we're not--" You know, "We'd like to hire you, but we know--" Because they were taking the path of least resistance. If I promote this guy or this woman, then this guy's gonna complain and be disruptive, so I might as well give him the promotion so at least I can have harmony. I can have the appearance at least of order. It's essentially almost like the corporate indictment of Martin Luther King, Jr. [?] white moderate, "order over justice." As long as nobody's mad and nobody says anything, everything's cool. And it's like, "No, wait a minute. You're contributing to this by having no courage. And by the way, if you're the boss and you've got a disruptive employee, he's insubordinate. You've got the power to do something about that." And that's the reason why that chapter in the book is called The Mediocre White Boy, because these guys are protecting each other at the expense of your advancement.Zach: Man. You know, your book collects a series of pieces, all of them powerful. The bylines of many of them I read was this concept of, like, self-erasure, right? So there were multiple instances where athletes would say, you know, "I'm not black, I'm this," or "I'm not anything, I'm just me," and, you know, I see a similar pattern for well-to-do black professionals, like, executives. I've literally met folks who will say, "Well, I'm not just black. I'm also a tennis player." [laughs] Or "I'm just me," you know? "That's part of who I am, but I'm a complex person," or--Howard: One of the biggest problems that we have in business and when we talk about ourselves is the idea of what blackness is, and we do this to ourselves, and when we do it to ourselves, then that gives white people license to do it ten times worse to us. And when you watch, you know, film, and you watch Hollywood and you watch everything, they essentially assume there's one black experience, because we attack each other so often on authenticity. And, you know, one of the reasons why I did this book was because I felt like there was an opportunity to talk about certain elements of the black experience that never get discussed. I mean, one of the beauties of Ta-Nahesi Coates' writing is that he writes very specifically about a very specific black experience, his experience, you know, in Baltimore and as a professional, and he writes about being black in black communities. The same is true for a bunch of other writers, but one of the areas that we never really talk about is that post-1960s, post-1950s aspirational, you know, black families who made that decision--the same decision that white people made, whether it was white flight or black flight--that "I'm going to take my kids out of the black community and move them into the white spaces." And what happened to those black kids who grew up immediately and always as the only black kid in class? You're the only black kid in the first grade. You're the only black kid in the twelfth grade. You essentially live in a world of whiteness, and why are we asking you to live in this world of whiteness? For education. Your parents are doing this for you. They're doing this because--like, in my case, when we left Boston, we were trading the physical violence of a tough, tough neighborhood for the emotional violence of being the only black kid in a room full of white people. So eventually as that toll begins to mount on you, you enter these white corporate spaces, and you recognize very quickly the price of being black and the anti-blackness that you're surrounded by. And sometimes you hear, or a lot of times this becomes the price for you to advance - not to be black, not to talk about being black, not to be proud of being black. You hear black people say this all of the time. "Well, I don't want to be a black writer. I just want to be a writer who happens to be black." What on earth does that mean? "I'm not a black doctor. I'm a doctor that happens to be black." And what you're really saying is that "I can't carry this anymore. I don't want to carry this, because if I carry this with me I may not advance and I gotta answer questions I don't feel like answering." And you see it in sports especially where sort of this deal is they're going to trade your blackness for money, okay? "We're gonna pay you millions of dollars, but we don't want you talking about issues that are important to black people." So I began to think about this in two of the chapters. One is called "The Worst Thing in the World" and the other one is called "The Lost Tribe of Integration," which is that when I started thinking about the arc of my own life, that the arc is that your life will improve the faster and quicker you get away from black people. If you get away from the black community, your schools get better. If you get away from talking about black issues, then you're not a troublemaker at work anymore, you know? If you don't advocate for black people, then people will look at you and tell you that you've transcended race, as if looking in the mirror is something that you should not want. Zach: You know, what's really interesting about that is even in the diversity and inclusion, like, corporatized space--and I've noticed this as me as a black man, like, the more that I'm able to say things like, "It's not just about race and ethnicity, it's also about diversity of thought--" If even in the space that was supposedly built so that we can have equity for black and brown people and historically marginalized and oppressed groups--even in this space, if I, in my rhetoric, in my general language, if I eschew ethnicity, that is also [?]--Howard: If you advocate directly for black people, you are putting your entire career in danger. And I say this now, and people look at me, and they don't like to hear it, but I'll say it now, I'll say tomorrow, and I said it yesterday - diversity is anti-blackness, because what we're really talking about here when you look at the statistics and when you look at the reasons for the Rooney Rule--you're not looking at the Rooney Rule because Asians are underrepresented, but when you're having your diversity and inclusion initiatives, especially if you're talking about technology--if we're going to Silicon Valley, you're not looking at the Middle-Eastern or the Indian or the Asian and say, "Gee, they're not advancing." What you're looking at is a white space that has no black people, and so many of these D&I initiatives began with black people. It was about black people. It was for black people. But when you do something directly for black people, people get offended. They get mad. They don't want to hear it. They feel like, "Well, what are you giving them special treatment for?" Because you gave us the special treatment of not letting us play. You've been giving us special treatment since we got here. It's just not the special treatment that is a positive special treatment. It's negative, but it's still special. So what has happened in these spaces now is to minimize the idea that you're giving black people special treatment, now you just talk about non-white male treatment. But non-white male treatment does not necessarily address the inequities for black people specifically. So D&I suddenly becomes hiring white women, and so white women--who are often part of the patriarchy, who are always second on the food chain, who can marry into wealth faster than everybody, and if you look at your statistics, marrying into wealth is still the fastest way to become wealthy. The most reliable way to become wealthy isn't going to college, it's to marry into it. So now when you start to look and your demographics change, now all of a sudden--we had 89% white men in a given position, now it's 69% white men in a given position, but it's 29% white women. What does that actually do for black people? So you've got your diversity, but you haven't helped black people. You haven't helped the people on the bottom who were supposedly the target of this initiative. But you've got your diversity, you know? You've got seven white men, two white women, and one--you know, one Asian man, but what does that do for the person on the bottom? It didn't help them at all, yet your numbers are different and you can say, "We've improved diversity by 30%," but what happens to me? You haven't helped me at all. Zach: So we typically have sound effects, Howard, but you've been so fire that I'm not even trying to, like, dilute what you've been saying. So do you ever imagine a world where marginalized communities collectively go full dissidence in their places of work? And, like, if so, what in your mind would that look like?Howard: Well, the answer's no because you've got to eat. I mean, the answer's no because eventually, you know, when you start looking at the actual numbers, the numbers tell you that--they're so overwhelming, that there's only a few of us that are gonna be able to succeed, and so very few people are going to be willing to risk that. I mean, I look at myself and I look at the numbers and I say to myself, "There's nothing special about me," and then you look at the actual number of black people who have my job and you go, "Oh. On second thought, there is something special," because you're one of the few people who actually has a platform, who actually has a chance to say something.Zach: Howard, man. I'm serious. I'm telling you, man. I'm not joking. When you got up on there and you started talking like that, me and all of my friends were like, "Yo... this is gonna be the last time we see this dude up here." [laughs]Howard: Exactly, right? But see, I look at it this way. ESPN hired me to do this. They didn't hire me to act like Bill Simmons or to act like Rick Reilly or to act like Stephen A. They said, "You go out and do what you do best." Now, obviously when you're gonna do this, when you're going to say these different things, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about "Do you want diversity of color or diversity of thought?" Normally, what a lot of corporations want is they want diversity of color, but they don't want diversity of thought because diversity of thought challenges them way too much. So what they would really like is they would like a gigantic, pretty rainbow of different colors who are all represented who all think the same way so the company's not challenged. I understand that part. I don't always subscribe to that part, because as a journalist, you're asking me to represent people who don't have the opportunity to speak, and so I try to do that. That's part of the job, or at least it was part of the job and it should always be part of the job. So the issue is, to answer your question, what needs to happen and how do I envision that? What does that look like? Well, how it looks to me is I think it's more of a mental liberation than a physical one. I think to me, when I think about full dissidence as an idea--and I think I end the book with it--is it's the recognition that you can find your own living space and not let people lie to you or not feel like you have to buy in. You've got to be willing to see through what's happening right now. Look at what's happening to your situation, and then you need to discover your own strategies to find your own peace within it. But the problem that I see is the number of black people in the business who were so [?] and so happy that they get in that they buy into it and they think they're different and they're like, "Okay, everything's changed," and then they get punched in the face. And then they get punched in the face and they had their hands down, and what I'm trying to say is if you're gonna navigate this environment, navigate the environment, but make sure your hands are up and know that punch is coming, because that punch always comes. Ask your parents. Ask your grandparents. That punch always comes. So what you're really asking me in some ways, whether you're doing it directly or not or intentionally or not, is do I see white people changing so there's no need for this, and the answer is no, I don't see that. What I see--and that's one of the reasons why in the book I say it's not a survival guide, it's simply what I see--what I see is the necessity for black people to hold on to their blackness, to keep it and to not trade it and not sacrifice it under this idea that "If I do the right things and if I say the right things I'm gonna get accepted as an American," because it hasn't happened yet, you know? That's the big thing for me, that you look at the--you know, you go watch a movie like Gloria or go read the history of, you know, black participation in warfare, that if you fight for your country or if you win the medals or if you build the charter school or if you, you know, give the money to whatever foundation, that you are finally gonna get accepted, and it goes back to what you were saying. It's that whole idea of outperforming racism. I guess the best way to say it is--what is full dissidence? Full dissidence is the recognition that you cannot outperform racism. That's what it feels like to me.Zach: Man, thank you so much for being on the podcast. This has been incredible. Y'all, make sure y'all check out his--everything's in the show notes. The author, his name is Howard Bryant. The book is called Full Dissidence: Notes from an Uneven Playing Field. Make sure y'all check it out. This has been Zach with the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and we're on Google, man. Look, we're all on Al Gore's Internet, man. Livingcorporate.co, .us, .net. Howard, listen, man, we understand how theses SEOs work. We've got all the domains, Howard, except for LivingCorporate.com. Australia has that domain somehow. I don't know what's going on. We're gonna try to get it, but look, [Howard and Zach laugh] y'all make sure y'all hit us up. I can't thank you enough, Howard. Until next time, we'll catch y'all, man. Peace.

Zach chats with Michelle Kim, co-founder and CEO of Awaken, in this episode centered around effectively creating inclusive leadership cultures. Michelle shares her journey into social justice work with us, including what led to the creation of Awaken, and she explains why she and her organization prioritize the needs of the most marginalized people in the room.Connect with Michelle - she's on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn!Check out Awaken's website and social media pages! Twitter, IG, FB, LinkedInYou can read Awaken's Medium blog by clicking here.Want to learn more about Build Tech We Trust? Here's their website and Twitter!Click here to read the Salon piece mentioned in the show.Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, everybody? It's Zach. Yes, again, it's me. Your boy, your host, your friend, your co-worker--maybe your co-worker, I don't know. If you work with me you know that I have this podcast, and, I mean, hopefully if you're checking it out, you know, hopefully you're having a good time. Shout-out to you. I'm not gonna say your name, but you know I'm talking to you. What's up? Look, you know what we do. We serve to amplify the voices of black and brown people at work, and we do that by talking to black and brown people in a variety of spaces, right? So these could be executives, public servants, activists, creatives, entrepreneurs, anybody, and we try to have these conversations in approachable and authentic ways, centering black and brown and otherwise underrepresented experiences and perspectives at work, and today we have with us a very special guest, Michelle Kim. Michelle is the founder and CEO of Awaken, a firm that empowers leaders and teams to lead inclusively and authentically through modern interactive and action-oriented workshops. Prior to Awaken, she had a successful consulting career working with C-suite and VP-level executives at high-performing companies around the world, helping them set ambitious business goals and align their teams to achieve them. While working in management consulting and technology start-ups, she experienced and validated first-hand the urgent need for modern, up-to-date education that empowers leaders to be more empathetic, agile, and culturally aware. Come on, now. Culturally aware. Pay attention. Michelle's experience in organizational change management, strategic goal setting and social justice activism set the groundwork for Awaken's multi-disciplinary and action-oriented learning programs. As an immigrant queer woman of color, Michelle has been a life-long social justice activist and community organizer. Michelle, what's going on? Welcome to the show.Michelle: Hey, thank you for having me. I'm so honored.[yay sfx]Zach: No doubt. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Michelle: Those are the sound effects that you told me about. [laughing]Zach: Yes, yes. So for those who are newer to the show, I have a soundboard. I have all types of sounds on here, you know what I'm saying? You know, we add a few things from time to time, and, you know, just enjoy yourself. If you're new to this space, sit back, grab something to drink--it doesn't have to be alcoholic, you know? I respect your choices, your boundaries. But enjoy the soundscapes that are gonna be coming to you in this episode and many more to come.Michelle: I love the production.Zach: You know what? We gotta add a little bit of razzmatazz, just from time to time. So let's do this. You know, I gave a little bit of an intro, but for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Michelle: Sure. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Zach, for the intro. I think you covered a lot in my intro, but I think something that some people might be familiar with is actually my writing. I am an [?] writer. That's how I communicate my thoughts and perspectives to the world, in addition to facilitating workshops and doing speaking like this one or on stages all over the country. My passion is in really closing the gap between how we talk about social justice in our society today and how, you know, quote-unquote diversity and inclusion gets done, and quickly. So I think that there's a lot of work that we can do to help bridge the gap in understanding and awareness of how we communicate with each other. And also a fun fact about me is I'm a Virgo.Zach: Shout-out to Virgos. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. You said you're a Virgo?Michelle: I'm a Virgo.Zach: Man, shout-out to the Virgos one time. I'm also a Virgo. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? They don't know about us like that. But please, tell us about your Virgoness.Michelle: You know, a lot of my friends who know me closely know my tendencies to be highly critical, but I also think that's what--I think being critical gets a bad rep, but I actually think that being critical is what makes me decent at my job. I also think that I have perfectionist tendencies, which I don't think is healthy, so I'm working on that. I like being organized. I am a huge fan of to-do lists. And I love--my love language is acts of service, so I think that also aligns with me being a Virgo. So I tend to, you know, go overboard when it comes to supporting other people, sometimes to a fault, 'cause I need to prioritize self-care and boundaries and all of that, but I'm not. I'm not perfect at that stuff.Zach: I just feel so--I feel so seen in you talking about yourself.Michelle: [laughing] Good. I'm glad, I'm glad. Virgos unite.Zach: They do. And honestly, like, you know, here we are, two people who over-extend for others sitting down, having a conversation that really helps to amplify one another. Isn't that something? [look at us sfx] Not me, you know what I'm saying?Michelle: That's right.Zach: [laughs] You were about to say something.Michelle: I said "Do you know who else is a Virgo?"Zach: Beyonce.Michelle: Beyonce's a Virgo. So whenever I feel like I need to be [?] about being a Virgo, I look to Beyonce for inspiration.[ow sfx]Zach: I'm right there with you. I mean, if she can do it, certainly I can do it. And, you know, my dad's a Virgo, so shout-out to my dad. He was born on the 6th, I was born on the 4th, and, you know, we're a lot alike. Okay, so yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your inspiration for social justice, and I really want to--'cause social justice is such a broad term. It's often even, like, used as a pejorative these days. So, like, when you say social justice in, like, your history, what does that look like for you?Michelle: That's a great question. My journey into social justice work really began with the lens of being a queer person. You know, I think my journey really started with my coming out. So I came out as queer and bisexual when I was 16. So I was in high school, and I was really confused. I didn't know about, you know, any social justice issues beyond--I think what people were talking about then were women's rights, and, you know, now I understand that to be white women's rights, but we'll get into that more. But when I came out as queer I didn't have a lot of resources, so I was really actively searching for community and support to make sense of who I was [and what I could do about my identity.] I was really fortunate to have found a great support group within my high school that was kind of an underground support group, and through that I found out about this program happening out of UC Santa Barbara where they were doing youth activism summer camp kind of stuff for LGBTQ young people. So that was my entryway into social justice work, and that's where I learned how to organize, how to, you know, stage protests and knowing my rights as a student activist, and that's where I learned about social justice activism and writers who wrote about social justice, like Audre Lorde. So that was my entryway into understanding social justice, is through the frame of my being queer and learning from queer trans activists, also young people, and that's also where I learned about the intersections of being queer and also being a person of color and all of the nuances of the different identities and the intersections of different types of marginalization and oppression and how often times they all come from the same root and source of, you know, patriarchy or white supremacy. So, you know, I'm throwing a lot of [?] here, but really at the end of it, for me social justice is about, you know, understanding that we're all in this struggle together, and in order for us to achieve equity and equality and justice that we need to have solidarity in this frame of social justice.Zach: And so I'm really curious, right? Let me talk to you a little bit about my perspective, it being singular and limited, right? So I don't believe this is the way it is. This has been, like, my perception as I look--a cishet black man, Christian black man, looking across this, like, D&I space, right? Like, I'm seeing, like, different camps and groups, right? So I see this group that is largely white and who--like, they're invited to a lot of the fancy things, but they're not necessarily credentialed other than being in a certain social strata, but they're not really credentialed in any type of lived experience, nor are they credentialed in any specific level of education, but they're credentialed in, like, certain experiences from, like, again, just being in certain spaces, right, that are afforded to them because of their class and race. I then see another group of people that are very much so, like, activists. Like, they're on the street. If they're using social media, it's to mobilize something tangible. It's to affect a change in some type of grassroots community level. And then I see, like, another group that is kind of--like, they're in the corporate space and they're doing a few things, but they're not necessarily really, like, enacting anything beyond whatever the company needs them to do to kind of mitigate litigious risk, but I think--I'm kind of seeing, like, tensions against each of these groups. I'm curious about, like, your perspective, considering your social activist background and the work you do today. Do you see similar camps in the space, and, like, if not, what are you seeing? Do you think I'm oversimplifying kind of, like, the various camps and groups, or, like, what's your perspective on that?Michelle: I don't think you're oversimplifying per se, 'cause I do see what you're saying. I hear you in terms of there being different--because identities [are?] also a different approach to doing diversity and inclusion work inside the workplace. I think--a couple things that I want to clarify in terms of my beliefs is that I don't think anyone can truly call themselves a D&I expert. I certainly don't call myself a D&I expert, because I believe fundamentally diversity and inclusion is about lived experiences, so it's all about how we make sense of our lived experiences in relation to the systems that we inhabit, so I think everybody's an expert in their own lived experience, and I can't ever claim that I'm an expert in your life, right? So I think that's one belief that I have, that we all are experts in our owned lived experiences. And then another belief that I have is that, you know, social justice activism isn't just about being out in the street and marching and protesting. You know, there's a lot of activism happening inside of workplaces today as well through corporate activism, but also just daily acts of survival for a lot of folks, especially black and brown people, underrepresented people of color and trans and queer people inside workplaces. I think what they're doing, just by mere survival and speaking up when they can, is an act of activism. I think there is a greater sense of responsibility that I'd love for D&I professionals to have, whether they're inside or outside of the workplaces, in really making sense of how change happens and pushing the boundaries to serve the most marginalized people in the room. I think that's where my criticality comes in, when you start to talk about mostly white--I think I've seen a lot of white women take up the role of head of D&I. That's where I start to question whether, you know, are they understanding the positionality of being a white person, doing this work inside workplaces, holding a position of power? And, you know, I start to question sort of how change is being [assisted?] inside companies while prioritizing the needs of the most marginalized people. So I do think that people without the social justice frame, as in--you know, I think the root of my education and the foundation of my social justice education that I've gotten from, you know, activists who were organizers at the community level, what they've taught me is that in order for us to enact change, we need community, we need solidarity, and we need to approach everything through the lens of centering the most marginalized people and their needs, 'cause then everybody in-between and all of us will rise together. So that is sort of my approach when it comes to education or policies, whatever organizational design we're talking about. If we can center the most marginalized people, then everybody else will benefit. So that's the social justice framing that I use to approach all of my work, but I think I see some D&I people in the corporate space doing D&I work as if this is a new discipline that's not tied to social justice at all, right? That this is--in a vacuum, this is just about recruiting the most, you know, diverse set of candidates, that it's about retaining those people once they get there, but it's sort of in a vacuum without the understanding of systemic issues and history that has fueled D&I to exist in the first place. I think that's my biggest sort of criticism about how D&I gets done in the corporate space today.Zach: And I get that, right? It resonates with me, which is why I was so excited, because I really enjoyed--like, I've read some of your written work, and of course I follow you on social media. I love what Awaken is doing, right? And really, based on what you're sharing, I'm curious, how does that translate into the work that Awaken does? Because everything you're saying, I'm hearing it, right? But I guess I'm trying to understand--how does that effectively translate in majority-white spaces in the work that--and I'm making an assumption that the spaces that you engage are largely white. If they're not correct me, but from what I'm looking at it seems like the spaces are largely white, and it seems to be that when I talk to other D&I professionals, the subtext of a lot of the work, and even some of the, like, backhanded critique that I've received--because I'm often times received as "Well, you're passionate, but you're not really credentialed, right?" Like, "You're a person of color and you have a certain lived experience, but, you know, you don't have the same foundation that I may have as a quote-unquote D&I expert, so your point of view only goes so far," or it's only limited to the black experience. There seems to be, like, a subtext of "Let's not make people too uncomfortable," but the work that you're talking about in centering underrepresented or the most marginalized, that--I feel as if the argument could be made that you're automatically making other people uncomfortable. So again, just what does all of that look like as it translates into your work with Awaken?Michelle: Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm also so curious about these credentials, right? [both laughing] 'Cause I see these credential programs or certification programs. Like, what are you certifying people for? I'm so curious. I think there are absolutely some skills that we can learn, whether that's facilitation or curriculum development or policy design, that we can get better at, but in terms of understanding other people's lived experiences and the identities that folks hold and the complexities that come with that, I don't know if we can truly ever be credentialed enough to be, you know, discounting other people's experiences and opinions. So that's my perspective on it. And in terms of how our approach translates into our work, you know, I think we can talk about sort of the founding story, why we were created in the first place. So, you know, after having done organizing work when I was in high school and college, I decided to pursue a career in, you know, the for-profit space because I needed to make money, let's be real, and I was told actually by my activist mentors, who have gone onto pursuing social justice careers as career organizers and non-profit folks, that they were also experiencing very sort of similar harm, because even non-profits are predominantly led by white people, right? So I think the issues that we think are non-existent in progressive--quote-unquote "more progressive" spaces, they continue to exist, while folks are not making enough money to make ends meet. So--[straight up sfx]Michelle: [laughs] I love the sound effects. Knowing that and knowing my situation as a--you know, I grew up low-income, and I needed money to support my family. The advice I got from my mentors was "Hey, you can create change in certain spaces." They warned me about the toxic culture, but I went in sort of ignorant about what I was getting myself into. So I also really am grateful for my journey, having started my career in management consulting and in tech. I think I have experienced a lot of different things that I wasn't ready for but I'm grateful for nonetheless. But when I entered in those spaces, I was exposed to and I searched for D&I spaces, right? Because I thought that that was what I knew to be social justice work. So when I joined an employee resource group, I was, you know, disappointed at the level of conversations that were being had around what it means to be inclusive, what it means to be a diverse place, and I was surprised and disappointed and disillusioned by what companies were talking about as D&I was quite surface-level and marketing-oriented rather than real actionable behavioral change or cultural change that were being modeled by leaders of the company. So, you know, I was going through different workshops and trainings and just kept feeling like I was not seeing the level of conversations that actually needed to take place in these spaces, and it felt really safe. It felt safe. It felt white-washed. It felt diluted. As, you know, somebody who was just sitting in the room and constantly challenging the facilitator, I felt like I was doing all of the work. [Zach laughs] And after the [?] is over, you know, unfortunately the burden of re-educating other people who went through the workshop who now thinks that they are quote-unquote "woke" or who say that they checked the box, right? "Okay, we went through this unconscious bias training, so now we're good. Now I'm back to being a progressive person who cares about this issue." [Zach laughs] You know, [it was?] a challenge to really think differently, but the burden of their action, their unchanging behavior, their unawareness, and they're now feeling like they know what they're talking about, falls on the most marginalized people in the room, and I think that was a frustration that kept coming up for me as I was going through different types of trainings, whether that was done by external vendors or internal people, that people weren't pushing people enough, and I genuinely felt the need for a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations, and that's our mission statement, to create a compassionate space for uncomfortable conversations to developing inclusive leaders and teams, and the way that we do that is by centering the needs of the most marginalized people, meaning we don't pat on ourselves on the back when a workshop goes well from the perspective of a bunch of white men saying that that workshop was great, you know? That may be true, but if, you know, the one black person in the room says that that workshop wasn't good while a bunch of white people say that the workshop was great, we don't pat ourselves on the back for that, right? But if we can support the most marginalized people in the room, you know, in tech and also in many other spaces as predominantly black and brown folks, trans, queer, people of color, if they give us the stamp of approval, if they feel like they were seen and heard and lifted and that they didn't have to do all the work, that's success for us, right? So by designing our curriculum to speak truth to them and to, you know, have that frame of "Can we lessen the burden on people who are the most marginalized in these spaces by saying the things that they can't say because there are too many risks and repercussions that they fear?" That's our job, and I don't think enough D&I practitioners out there are taking that approach, because, you know, if they're internal, their job is at risk. I get that. So I think as a third-party, we coming in--we have a different level of risk that we get to take because we don't have that kind of repercussion that we need to worry about, besides not being able to come back to that place again.Zach: Right. And, I mean, at that point that, you know, they don't let you back, I mean, you already got the bag anyway, so... [cha-ching sfx] You know? Michelle: [laughs] Well, and usually we can come back, because we don't often take on one-off workshops. I think that approach is pretty harmful, and, you know, companies come to us and say, "Hey, we just want to do a one-day, like, [?]." We tend to say no to those engagements because we really believe in delivering impact and working with people who are genuinely interested in real change. So, you know, I think the mistake people make is thinking that meeting people where they're at needs to be done by diluting the message. I don't think that's true. You can meet people where they're at with compassion and criticality. So you don't have to coddle people, but I think you can be compacted and make your content accessible for folks that they understand and they can move along the journey while feeling and embracing some tension and discomfort that comes with challenging their beliefs.Zach: So it's funny, because you see, like, even in, like, our current political tone and tambor today from, like, mainstream media, it's still around, like, the idea of respectability and quote-unquote kindness, kind of pushing against this idea of, like, call-out culture or just, like, keeping it real, like, just saying how things are, and it's interesting, and I hear what you're saying about, like, coddling versus accessibility. Do you have an example of what it looks like to effectively call something for what it is while at the same time making it accessible for folks to actually grasp and understand. Like, I don't think there's enough work that you could do to cater to or mitigate against fragility, but I would love to hear, like, kind of what Awaken does and, like, what that looks like for you.Michelle: Mm-hmm. Hm, let me think of an example. I think that's a great question, and I'd love to be able to contextualize it just a little though with an example. I think--I don't know why this example keeps coming up in my head. I think it's because we're designing a curriculum right now around inclusive interviewing practices, and one of the common questions that comes up is this idea of not lowering the bar and hiring in this sort of notion of meritocracy, and I think, you know, one way to approach that is really sort of making the person who said that feel like they don't know what they're talking about and, you know, calling them racist and all of that... I think is one way. [both laugh] I think another way could be really helping unpack why meritocracy doesn't currently exist, even though that is an ideal that we can strive for together, and how people who are currently in companies today may not have been hired purely based on merit. Zach: And how do you prove that though?Michelle: How do you prove that?Zach: Yeah.Michelle: I think there's a lot of data that actually backs up the claim around how meritocracy doesn't exist. I mean, what we often talk about is that, you know, meritocracy is a concept that was created as a vision that we can all work toward, but we falsely believe that right now there is sort of meritocracy in a sense, but there's lots of data that shows that actually there's a lot of biases in the hiring process, whether it's from the referral stage or, you know, the interview stage or the deliberation stage. I think there's a lot of data that actually shows discrepancies in the ways that we make decisions, and I think, you know, calling that out specifically I think is really helpful. I think the harmful alternative of sort of diluting that fact of, you know, not having meritocracy is that I have sometimes heard, you know, folks explain that to people in a way that actually equates hiring people of color or women as lowering the bar and that being sort of the, you know, unfortunate short-term solution. Like, yeah, but we need to hire more people of color and women, so, you know, we want to make sure that we are getting that quota filled. So I think there's, like, a lot of weird ways of people explaining difficult concepts to make people feel comfortable, because the discomfort in this conversation is the fact that you may not have been hired based on your merit, right? I think that's the tension, is that if we debunk meritocracy, people who have these jobs in higher-paying positions, they are feeling attacked because they feel like they warrant--they didn't get to where they are purely based on merit, and recognizing that they've had privileges that weren't afforded to another demographic groups, I think that in and of itself is the discomfort, and I think a lot of folks have a hard time calling that out, because we're then directly sort of highlighting the fact this may be an awful position that they're in. And I think talking about privilege in general is something that's really difficult for people. It's not an easy topic for any of us to really grapple with, but I think if we can't have those tougher conversations where we are directly highlighting and shining light on the fact that, you know, there are--"Yes, we worked hard, and there are struggles that we didn't have to go through to get to where they are." I think if that conversation doesn't happen, it would be a huge miss.Zach: You know, Michelle, when you and I first spoke, you know--we do our thing, we try to get to know each other first, and then we do the episode. A little bit of background behind the scenes for y'all, but anyway, when you and I first spoke we talked about people of color and that term, right? And we had conversations about Living Corporate and how, you know, we don't really use the term "people of color," we say black and brown. And then you and I had a conversation about how you don't really consider, or you don't count, Asian-American or, like, that space, East Asian, in the "people of color" category. Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?Michelle: Yeah. I think that's a great question. So I think, just to clarify, I do count Asians as a part of the people of color community, but I think there's context that we need to put into place whenever we're using the term. So I think the term people of color is a useful term when we're talking specifically about non-white people in the context of talking about white supremacy and how that impacts all people who are not white who experience racism and other forms of oppression because of their race. Where I don't feel comfortable using the term people of color is when we're discussing specific issues that impact black and brown communities. For example, when we're talking about police brutality or the murders of black trans women, I think it's really important for us to be specific about who we're talking about, because as an East Asian person, I don't have the same type of fear or risk when I'm around police. I think that is really important for us to specify, and I think that understanding around how there are very specific forms of racism, like anti-black racism. I think that clarity is so needed in having this conversation in a more effective way, and also for, you know, Asian-American folks to be able to show up in solidarity with folks who are experiencing very specific forms of marginalization. Zach: I just... you know, one sound we don't have on the soundboard is, like, finger snaps. [snapping fingers] But I'ma put these in there. Yeah, I love it. And it's interesting because, you know, we're moving at the speed of the Internet when it comes to a lot of this stuff, right? And certain things become trendy or become--I don't know. They kind of just catch fire, and I think the term people of color, it has a place, and I've seen it be used interchangably when people are just talking about black folk, right? It's like, "Why are we using that term right now when--" If we're really talking about something targeted for black Americans, if we're talking about something that's targeted for Latinx trans Americans--these groups, as niche or as just unique or small as they may seem to you, these represent actual human beings. So I think it's great that we're using them, but sometimes for me--it sometimes almost gets used as, like, a catch-all, and you end up erasing a lot of identities and experiences and points of view.Michelle: Totally, and I think if we can't be specific about the actual issue, then how can we solution around it, right? If we can't name what the actual issue is? It's not police brutality against all people of color, right? It's [?] against black and brown people specifically, you know? People who are seen as a quote-unquote "threat" to cops. I think it's really important for us to get specific around that so that we can solution around it, because it wouldn't make sense for us to do--you know, to solve for all people of color experiencing police brutality because that's not true. I think, you know, when we talk about black maternal [debts?], that's not happening to Asian-Americans that it's happening to black folks who are giving birth. So, you know, I think specificity is important for solutioning the right outcomes, and also, like you said, it doesn't erase people's experiences. I think tech is starting to incorporate more of the term around underrepresented POC, because, you know, Asian-Americans are overrepresented in many tech companies, but, you know, Asian-American also, similar to POC, is a very broad terminology, so I'd love to be able to see some dis-aggregated terms that we can use to also talk about underrepresented Asian-Americans. But yeah, I think specific language is always helpful in most cases, and I think there's also purpose to the term people of color when we can really mobilize and build a coalition across all people of color.Zach: I think it's just so interesting. I do think a function of white supremacy is, like, keeping things as surface as possible so that--because the more surface you can be, like, to your point, the less specific and targeted you can be in your solutioning, and if you're not targeting your solutioning, then you're not really gonna be able to affect true change. 'Cause, you know, and the last thing about this in terms of, like, just keeping things general and grouping people all together is, like--I know that in Europe there's a term that's called... it's black--it's like people of color to the max, right? So it's called "BAM," black, Asian, and Middle-Eastern. Like, what is that? Michelle, like, that's--that is nuts. You can't--huh? Like, when someone told me that--like, I just learned about this maybe, I don't know, like, a couple months ago. Like, a colleague told me, and I said, "How is that possible?" Like, those are thousands of identities and experiences and cultures and languages and histories. Like, how are you just going to just lump--so you're just gonna take all the non-white people and put 'em in one big cluster? Huh? Considering the history of, like, colonialism and, like--oh, my gosh. Like, that's nuts. You can't do that. And so, anyway... okay, okay, so from this conversation, what I'm hearing, I don't think that we always give, like, members of the majority enough credit in their ability to have an honest conversation when it's framed effectively, right? I think a lot of times it's kind of like, "Well, we don't want to bring that up because then that makes people uncomfortable," or "We don't want to bring that up because then they shut off," and it's like... eh. I mean, yes, people are fragile, but, like, come on. We've got to be able to have some type of--some level of authentic conversation around something. So that's--Michelle: Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as giving them credit. [both laughing] You know? I think there is a reason why--you know, why people are hesitant to have that conversation. I think it's because of the backlash. It's because of the fragility and it's because of [?] and also frankly the repercussions that people face. So I think while we sort of finesse the way that we deliver certain messages without losing the criticality but also having compassion and being accessible, what we also need to be doing is building the resiliency on the part of the dominant or the privileged group so that we can receive that information and check their fragility or check their defensiveness, and I think that education needs to be more prioritized than the other stuff.Zach: I agree, and thank you. Thank you for pushing back. [laughing] I do think there's a low level of fluency and stamina, right, when it comes to these conversations, and it's interesting because I just read an article, and it was published on Salon, and it was called "Diversity is for white people: the big lie behind a well-intended word." Have you read that yet?Michelle: I have not.Zach: Yo, I'ma send this to you. But it's just interesting because it's really this conversation in a really tactful rant form just around, like, how D&I is often phrased today, and it's, like, phrased with, like, white comfort in mind as opposed to the perspective and experiences of the marginalized in mind, and so I just find that very interesting. Okay, so look, you're the first East Asian-American person that we've had on the show, and so first of all, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to you. [air horns sfx] You know, shout-out to you for that and just being here, you know? [coin sfx] Michelle: Thank you for having me. I'm honored.Zach: Nah, I'm honored. I mean, I'm excited. I think there's this--like, despite civil rights history and all of the work especially done, like, within California, L.A., Oakland, in the '60s, and of course, like, during the era of the Black Panthers, there's this stereotype that Asian-Americans don't really care about social justice. Like, have you heard this before, and, like, why do you think that that is?Michelle: Yeah. Yes, I have heard that before, and I continue to hear it quite often. I think something that I hear when I meet people for the first time and I talk about what I do and we get to know each other a bit better, a weird sort of form of compliment or they think it's a compliment that they pay me is this fact that, you know, I'm one of the unique ones, right? Like, "Oh, wow. I've never met another Asian person who is like you," or "I'm so glad you're doing this work, because we need more Asian people doing this," and I have mixed emotions about that, because while I appreciate the acknowledgement of the work, I think that there's also this continuing erasure of the historical work that different Asian-American activists have done, whether that's the labor movement that was led by Filipino activists or folks marching [?] or even current activists working as prison abolistionists who are Asian-American racial justice organizer or disability justice organizers like [?], queer trans [?] activists. I think there's a lot of folks who are doing really radical work who continually get erased, so it leaves sort of a bitter taste in my mouth when I hear that because I think that with that simple sentiment we're erasing so much of history and current work that's being done. I also think that some of that comment is valid in that, you know, I do see a lot more work that can be done on the part of Asian-Americans specifically. You know, East Asians in tech is sort of the reputation that I hear about where people can be more active in doing D&I work or social justice work, and I think there's a real sort of lack of awareness or even the sense of solidarity amongst Asian-Americans in what their place is, like, what our place is in this conversation around social justice activism. So I think it's a complex topic. I do think that we can do more. I think all groups can do more, and I think there's a serious lack of education around Asian-American history and sort of--even the current facts around, you know, the struggles that Asian-Americans are going through, that if more Asians knew about that and if more Asian folks found commonality between our oppression and other marginalized communities' depression that we may be able to build a coalition to do more amazing work.Zach: One, thank you for--that's a really thoughtful answer. All of your answers have been very thoughtful. It's almost like you're very... awake. [haha sfx] What's really interesting, to your point around just, like, history, is as much as the Black Panthers--I really think that the way that we think about--and when I say we, I mean just, like, Americans, right? Like, the way that Americans categorize and think about the Black Panthers has to be, like, some of the most effective example of American government propaganda, right? Like, we think of Black Panthers as the equivalent of the KKK, like, the black equivalent, like they're these terrorists and that it's just full of these angry black people, and we don't think about the fact that Richard Aoki was--he was a founding member of the Black Panthers, right? Asian-American. And he's not, like, this ancient figure. Like, he passed away in 2009, but we don't really talk about that, and I'm really curious as to--'cause, like, the Black Panther Party, and, like--not the new Black Panther Party, but the initial, original Black Panther Party was not, like, hundreds of years ago, and so it's just so interesting how we are uneducated, right? We're uneducated just on civil rights history, and we're certainly--I don't remember in high school or in college hearing anything about Asian-American participation or engagement in the civil rights movement. That was not anything that I remember being taught, nor do I remember that being something that was, like, readily available for me to learn, you know?Michelle: Right. And I think that lack of education is within the Asian-American community itself, right? I think I feel like sometimes I know more about, you know, black history than my own sort of Asian-American history here in the U.S., and I'm an immigrant, so I think I grew up with a different set of history lessons. So there's a lot of catching up for me to do as well, and I think that the--I mean, even in the school system, I'm sure you've been talking to your guests around the lack of real education around what really happened in history too, right? Not just for Asian-Americans, but for, you know, black Americans and, you know, Latinx Americans. I think there's a lot of, you know, untrue history that's being taught to our youth, which is problem #1, and I also think there's a lot of internalized racism and oppression that exists in the Asian-American community, and there's a lot of complex topics that I don't know if we have time to get into, but things like the--Zach: Well, pick one. Let's go. I have time.Michelle: You know, the myth of Asians being closer to white people and the sort of model minority myth, and that's a very prevalent stereotype, and I think there's a lot of interrogating that we need to do when we talk about those things around, "Well, who were the initial group of Asian-Americans that were allowed to come to the country? What were the ramifications of that? What are some of the current statistics that we can talk about, even in the workplace, around Asian-Americans being the least likely group to advance to senior leadership positions even though they are overrepresented in industries like tech and, you know, [?] in an analyst position?" "How does that impact the continuing stereotypes and narratives around Asian-Americans?" Being good at math, and, you know, I think there's a lot of complex, intertwined stories that we tell about our people, Asian-Americans, and also we're combining an entire continent when talking about Asian-Americans as this monolith of a people when if we were to dis-aggregate that data, there's actually a ton of lessons to be learned around who's actually marginalized within the Asian-American community, right? I recently learned that 1 in 7--I think that's the stat--1 in 7 Asian-Americans are undocumented, and they're the fastest-growing population that's undocumented in the United States currently, but we don't hear about that, right? We don't hear about that narrative, and I think the way that white supremacy works is this sort of untrue and erasing of different stories that make the people of color the collective question and also not able to work alongside each other, and I think that's the--the most difficult thing that I see in the sort of solidarity that we need to be able to move the needle on this work is that there's so much of a lack of education on everyone's part, including myself, that we need to do a lot of work to be able to, you know, truly practice that solidarity with each other.Zach: Man. You know, and, like, Michelle, you've been just casually dropping just bombs, like, this whole conversation, right? So I just gotta give you at least one. [Flex bomb sfx] 'Cause it's been ridiculous. But one thing you said--and it brought something back to my memory. So I'm not gonna say the consulting firm. If y'all want to look on my LinkedIn, y'all can make a guess as to where this was. It's not the one that I'm at right now, but I'll never forget, Michelle, I was at a team dinner--this was some years ago--and we were talking about... so, you know, I'm at the table, and then there's senior leaders, and then there's, like, super senior leaders, and there's me, and I was, like, a junior-level person at this point in time, right? This was, like, five or six years ago. And so I'm a pretty junior person, and there's somebody in there talking about this one particular employee, and they said, "Oh, Insert Name Here is the perfect little Asian. He just does exactly what I tell him to do. He does his work and then he goes home." And I remember I was just eating my dinner--I literally stopped, I looked at the person who said it and was like, "Oh, my God. I can't believe you just said that." And she looked at me, and then you could tell that she, like, quickly averted her eyes and was kind of, like, "Oop--" You know, like, she got caught, but just that idea of this subservient just worker bee that just does whatever I tell them to do... that just stuck with me forever. I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's not--I'm still flabbergasted by that, as you can tell, and I told my coach. I said, "Hey, this is not okay," right? I said, "This is what happened." And they were like, "Oh, well, you shouldn't have heard that." I was like, "No, no, no. It's not about me shouldn't have hearing it. Like, they shouldn't have said that, but beyond them saying it, they shouldn't believe that." So yeah, I just wanted to share that. Like, I'll never forget me hearing that. And, like, they were talking about the person like they were a--you know, like a resource, and, you know, they call talent that in consulting, resources, but in a genuine, like, piece of property [way], right? And it makes you just question, like, "Well, damn, okay. You felt comfortable enough to say this at a team dinner." And it was a white woman, by the way. But, like, you felt comfortable enough saying this in, like, a mixed group at a team dinner. Like, God forbid, what are you saying about me, what are you saying about other people, what are you saying about this person in, like, more private settings, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right. Well, the scary thing though is that sometimes that kind of trope or narrative is almost seen as a compliment, as if we should be celebrating that. "Well, you know, why is it so bad for us to say Asians are good workers or Asians are good at following orders?" And what have you. I think sometimes that trope gets weaponized to divide the people of color community even further, which is--you know, I think we saw that divide also in the recent affirmative action case, right, where Asian-Americans--there were arguments on both sides around how Asians are being discriminated against for getting good grades and all of that kind of unfortunate, annoying [?], but that's a conversation for another time.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And to be specific for our listeners who may not be abreast, recently that was the affirmative action case that went before Harvard, correct?Michelle: Correct.Zach: Yeah, and so it was interesting--so, like my perspective, as I was kind of, like, reading and understanding it was, like, some people were saying--so I'm on this app called Fishbowl... this is not an ad, but Fishbowl is, like, this anonymous posting app for consultants and other, like, different industry professionals, and people on there were talking about the case, and so basically the commentary was, "Yeah, you're excluding us and you're letting in these black and brown people who aren't smart enough to get in, but you're trying to fill in these racial quotas." And I was like, "Wow." I don't think that that's the point, and I think the data showed that the people who are the most advantaged by this current system of applications and acceptances were legacy students, right? It was people that--but again, like, to your point, then you'd see people arguing, then you'd see black and brown people arguing with Asian-Americans about, you know, "Well, we deserve to be here--" Again, I think that's--white supremacy is winning again when we start having those types of... when it starts devolving in that way, you know what I mean?Michelle: Right, exactly. And I think it also comes from the fact that a lot of people don't understand the point of affirmative action and why it got started in the first place. It's almost like people think that we're just trying to fill quotas or, you know, have diversity for the sake of diversity, but I think this is where the concept of D&I falls short 'cause we're not actually ever talking about justice and correcting past mistakes or historical oppression. So I think there's a lot of conversations that we need to have that we're not having right now around this concept of justice and sort of historical wrong-doings being corrected with some type of mechanism, and I think similar conversations, you know, are being had in tech and other industries where they're focused on quote-unquote "diversity recruiting" where folks are talking about that concept of, you know, lowering the bar for the sake of diversity and, like, all of that stuff I feel like are interconnected and they're just happening in different spheres, and I think for me it's always coming back to the lack of basic communication around history and social justice concepts and people not understanding how all of these struggles are connected. I think there's just a lot of room for improvement in how we're talking about these issues.Zach: You know, we gotta have you back to talk about the connection--like, to really talk about justice in diversity, equity and inclusion work, because, like, I have all these questions, but I want to respect your time. [both laugh] So let's do this. First of all, let's make sure we have you back. We definitely consider you a friend of the pod.Michelle: Thank you.Zach: Yeah, no, straight up. So thank you for being here with us today. Now, look, y'all--now, I don't know what else y'all want from me. I'm talking to the audience now. You know, look, we come at y'all, we bring y'all some amazing guests, you know, we're having these really dope conversations. I mean, [what more do you want from me? sfx] what more do you want? Like, I'm not even trying to martyr myself. I'm just saying, like, "What do you want?" And when I say me, I mean Living Corporate. Like, you see this guest. Michelle Kim is a beast. Like, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. Now, look, before we get out of here though, Michelle, I have just a couple more questions. First of all, where can people learn more about Awaken?Michelle: You can learn more about Awaken at our website, www.visionawaken.com. You can also follow on Twitter @AwakenCo and our blog. Please check out our blog on Medium, www.medium.com/Awaken-blog. I'm all on Twitter, I'm on LinkedIn. You can follow me. I also have an Instagram. So all of the social media platforms there's gonna be me or Awaken, so please follow us and subscribe to our newsletter.Zach: All right, y'all. Now, look, she said all the stuff. Mm-mm, hold on, 'cause you're probably driving or you're doing something, you know? You're in your car or maybe you're typing something up on your phone, but what I really need y'all to do is I need you to stop... [record scratch sfx] and check out the links in the show notes, okay? Make sure y'all hit up all those things. I want y'all clicking on them links like [blatblatblatblat sfx]. You know, check them out, okay? We'll make sure we have everything right there for you. Now, Michelle, any shout-outs or parting words before you get out of here?Michelle: Well, I think we're living in a really interesting time right now. There's a lot going on in so many different communities and our society, so my shout-out is to everyone who is doing their best to survive and to thrive to take care of themselves, to stay vigiliant, to educate themselves, and to be in community with people that care about you. I think that's so important in this climate. One last shout-out I want to give is to this new initiative that I'm a part of called Build Tech We Trust. It's a coalition of different CEOs and tech leaders who have come together to say enough is enough around white supremacy spreading online on social media platforms and other tech platforms. It was founded by Y-Vonne Hutchinson and Karla Monterroso of Code2040, and check out our work. We're doing some really important work to build coalition around this issue of radicalization happening on tech platforms. So Build Tech We Trust, and I can send you the URL so you can link it.Zach: Please do. Y'all, this has been--first of all, Michelle, again, thank you. Great conversation. We look forward to having you back, because we will be having you back. If you would like to come back--it's not a directive, you have agency. Michelle: [laughing] Of course. I'd love to. I'd be honored.Zach: Okay, super cool. Listen, y'all. This has been the Living Corporate podcast. You know, make sure you check us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then--now, the websites. Now, look, y'all hear me rattle off all these websites every time - livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.net, right? Livingcorporate.us I think we even have. We have every livingcorporate, Michelle, except livingcorporate.com, but we do have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, if you have any questions or any feedback for the show, just hit us up. We're at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Hit us up on DM. All of our DMs are wide open for your convenience. That's right. We take on the emotional labor of keeping our DMs open so that you can reach out to us, okay? So you hit us up and you let us know if you need anything. If there's anything else, just Google us, right? Type in Living Corporate on your browser. We're gonna pop up. We're on all the different streaming mediums. Make sure to tell your momma about Living Corporate, your cousin, or your weird uncle, or your racist uncle at Thanksgiving. So you make sure you--come on, shoot the link over. We got all kinds of stuff on there, so we out here, okay? What else? I think that's it. Shout-out to Aaron [thank you], shout-out to all the listeners, and God bless y'all. Or, you know what I'm saying, bless y'all, 'cause I'm not trying to offend anybody, but bless y'all, okay? And what else? I think that's it. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Michelle Kim, founder, educator, activist, public speaker, and of course CEO of Awaken. Catch y'all next time. Peace.

Season 3 officially kicks off with a special premiere episode! Our incredible hosts Zach and Ade spend some time catching up and talking about what they did over the holidays, and they also chat about a few things to get excited for in the upcoming season. More features, more profiles, more highlights - there's a lot to look forward to in the future! This show's a two-in-one, so be sure to listen to the whole episode. Ade graciously shares some very impactful content that she recorded themed around her career journey and eventual job offer, so you don't want to miss it.Click here to read the piece Zach mentioned titled "Democracy Grief is Real."TRANSCRIPTZach: Yearrrrrp. What's going on, everybody? It's Season--oh, my gosh. 1, 2... Season 3.A ghost: Sure is.Zach: More fire for your head top, and welcome back. Is that a ghost? Is that--A ghost: [whispering] "From the past, from the past, from the past..."Zach: From the past? Oh, my gosh. Y'all, welcome back Ade.[kids applause, then our hosts imitate air horns]Zach: Man, wow. Listen, it is 2020. It's 2020. Isn't that nuts? It's 2020. You know, I definitely want to say though, you know, I've missed you. Y'all know. Y'all have probably noticed that Ade has not been in the podcast regularly, hasn't been around, you know. Breaking my heart quite frankly, you know what I'm saying? I cried. You know? I was sad.Ade: [laughing] Like... okay. All right, sir. Zach: I'm just thankful. I'm happy that you're here, you know? Season 3 is gonna be crazy, right? We have a lot of stuff going on. We have, you know, More profiles and highlights from, you know, different companies. You know, we've had Accenture on, we've had the Coalition of Black Excellence on. We got some other conversations and things that we're cooking up, but nothing to share just yet, you know? We are working on a book. That's right, that's right. More to come on that later, but I'm just kind of throwing some teasers out there. We've got some other media that we're gonna be experimenting with this year. I'm really excited about that. And then, you know, we've got--what else, man? We've got, you know, Ade's--I'm not gonna step on Ade. So she has some content that we're gonna get into that she recorded as she gets into the next stage of her professional career and journey, but I'ma give her space to talk about that in a second. Before we go there though, let's talk about the holiday season. What did you do?Ade: Oh, God. What did I do? I--uh, I slept.Zach: Turn up.Ade: I ate.Zach: Yeah.Ade: And I twisted my ankle.Zach: How?Ade: I don't even want to get into it. [both laugh]Zach: Oh, no. [laughing] Okay. Um...Ade: The point remains. I survived. I survived the holiday season. I spent some time with my loved ones. I don't know if I've mentioned my nephews on here before, but I have two nephews, one who loves me and one [who] hates me. But, you know, thanks be to God. The one who hates me now loves me and he wants to spend time with me on a regular basis now. Zach: Children are a fickle beast, man.Ade: They are so terrible. They are unruly, and they are tyrants. [both laughing] But we love them anyway.Zach: Man, we do. I have a nephew. He is adorable. Goodness, gracious. He's adorable, but it's like--and I just realized I guess I should go ahead and drop the news. Sheesh, I'm talking about kids. Well, first of all, let me say this first. So I have a nephew. He is adorable. But he's a boy, right? And if I just--he's just gonna get away with everything if I babysit him 'cause he's just too cute, but he's mischievious. Like, he's a cute little mischievious kid, but I'm just not--and I'm just not tough enough, 'cause he's too cute. He's too cute, you know? Now, if y'all have ugly kids, like, bring 'em over. I'll be a great disciplinarian. But if your kid's cute--Ade: What?![record scratch sfx]Zach: [laughing] Nah, ain't no such thing as ugly kids. Children are a blessing, and it's awesome, and actually it's with that in mind, you know, I actually have some news, you know what I'm saying, I'd like to share. You know, if anybody follows me on Instagram--which y'all don't, 'cause my follower count is not that booming like that and I haven't posted on Living Corporate, but my wife and I are expecting our first child.Ade: Ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.Zach: A little girl. Very excited, you know what I'm saying? [ow sfx]Ade: You know, I just wanted to say that Ade makes a really great first name for baby girls. I'm just saying. Putting it out there.Zach: [inhales, then plays a laughing sound effect]Ade: Whoa! [both laughing] Whoa, what's with the personal attacks? Like...Zach: Oh, my gosh. Shout-out to my wife, my spouse, my queen, my rib, you know what I'm saying, Candis. Doing all the hard work, you know? I--you know, listen... I put in the work, you know what I mean, but I'm not really carrying the load, you know what I'm saying? So air horns for her. [air horns sfx] You know what I'm saying? Just really appreciate her. You said you ate, but you talked about some food--so what did you eat? Like, what was your favorite thing?Ade: God, that's a good question. I absolutely could go back in, like, my memory bank and take a look at these photos that I took of my [?] plates.Zach: All right. Pull those up, 'cause I know for me--like, and shout-out to my grandmother-in-law. She made all types of vittles. They were delicious. [Ade laughs, making Zach laugh] And shout-out to my wife--Ade: Did you just say vittles?Zach: I did say vittles. I'm trying to bring vittles back in 2020. Ade: Why are you so old?Zach: Think about the last time--like, we have not, our parents have not, perhaps our grandparents are the last generation that use the word vittles casually.Ade: Right, and I think that's for good reason and we should leave that term there.Zach: It's SO old. Vittles, dawg? It's so, so, so, SO old. Ade: Kind of like you. We know.Zach: Kind of like me, that's right. I'm a whole 30 out here.Ade: That's wild.Zach: I know, right? 'Cause you just turned, like, 19.Ade: ...Um, first of all, 16, thank you very much.Zach: [laughs] No, not 16. Nope, nope, nope. There's no creep life around here. Nope, you are 24, right? Or 25?Ade: I am 25.Zach: Congratulations on turning 25.Ade: 25.Zach: I was gonna say--I was in the middle of my shout-outs and my thanks before you rudely called me old. So my grandmother-in-law and then my wife made some incredible bread pudding. She made bread pudding with crossiants and then didn't use buttermilk for the cream, instead used--what'd she use? Egg nog just because she ran out of butter and was like, "Eh, it's kind of the same." That egg nog was HITTING. I said, "Yo, what is this?" I mean, it got ate up. Shout-out to my sister-in-law Holly. She made some incredible mac 'n cheese. And Holly--listen, man, shout-out to Holly, man. She is cool people. Sister-in-law, you know? I definitely consider her a Bucky, you know what I'm saying, in this space of allyship and war and fighting for equity and justice for underrepresented people. And you know how I know Holly is an ally? And I haven't told her this, so if she listens to this podcast it'll be her first time hearing this. [Ade laughs] I knew that she was an ally--first of all she's an ally off top, 'cause, I mean, come on. She's been down. She's been doing this. But a reminder of her allyship--'cause this is not the determinant, 'cause she's be an ally off of a bunch of other stuff--a reminder of her allyship, she was making macaroni and cheese, and she baked the macaroni and cheese, and I said, "I knew it, dawg. I knew it." Ade: [laughs] I...Zach: No, let me tell you something. She has never--she has yet to let me down. She holds it down, bro. She holds it down. Ade: You are so incredibly canceled. I can't.Zach: [laughing] Shout-out to Holly, my sister-in-law. Shout-out to all of my allies out there. And if you call yourself an ally and you're not baking your macaroni and cheese, you are not an ally, dawg.Ade: We don't know you in these streets.Zach: We do not know you in these streets if you do not bake your macaroni and cheese. Bake it. It is not done until it's baked.Ade: Because I don't--what are you doing? You are serving undercooked food.Zach: What are you doing here? What are you doing here? You're giving me these wet, hot noodles? Bake it.Ade: That don't even sound right.Zach: It don't. How something wet hot--come on, relax. So anyway, but man, let me tell you something. The highlight, from a cuisine perspective, was when my uncle Marvin brought in these pecan candies. My goodness. Listen, I said [blessings come in sfx]. Boy, the bless--boy, ooh. Too good.Ade: [laughing] What is your problem? Man.Zach: Bro. Man, let me tell you something. And everybody got their own little bag. Handed me that bag, I said [Kawhi what it do baby sfx, laughing]Ade: All right. So you are just starting 2020 off on all types of foolishness. All right, heard you.Zach: Listen, man, I'm over here--I'm so excited, 'cause you ain't been around for a while, but see, since you've been gone, we've been using this soundboard. And I'ma share the soundboard--Ade: I can tell.Zach: Oh, listen. The soundboard is heat rock. [owww sfx] You know? I just really enjoy it quite a bit. So let me think about this. You still haven't talked about the food that you ate.Ade: Oh, yeah. I have been really on, like, a smoky kick lately, so I had, like--I made macaroni and cheese but with all smoked cheeses, and it was just--Zach: 'Cause you like cheese like that. We talked about this. Like, were you just introduced to cheese recently?Ade: Yes, I was very, very recently, like a year ago, introduced to cheese. I have discovered that I'm still quite lactose intolerant. Like, my ancestors were not with the lactose tip, but you know what? I'ma take my chances. I had my smoked mac 'n cheese, and I had it with the best collard greens I've ever made in all of my life. When I drizzled that little bit of just maple syrup right on it with that smoked turkey stock, I was just kind of like...Zach: Goodness, gracious!Ade: God loves me.Zach: Oh, He does. That's true.Ade: Like, this is--this is proof of the existence of the divine, and that dude loves me--or dudette, you know? Non-binary--Zach: Yes. You know, it's funny because, you know, you and I are sitting here, right? It was a crazy year. A lot of stuff going on. You know, things that we can share in time throughout Season 3. We're talking about physical health, mental health, emotional health, financial health, right? Career personal or professional development. It's interesting because, like--I don't know, man, and I'm kind of jumping all around 'cause I'm so excited. I'm excited for you to be here, but I'm excited just to, like, kick off this season, and so, like, this is, like, a loosey--like, we don't have a formatted, you know, interview or anything like that. We're just chopping it up, welcoming Ade back all the way, but I don't know, man. It's just been a lot, and it's just interesting because we were creating content for Living Corporate, and at the same time we were--you know, it was helping us while we were helping other people, you know what I'm saying? So let's do this. Like we said before, you have something that you already had, like, created and recorded that I think would be really helpful for us to put in on this episode, so why don't we talk a little bit about that and then we'll transition to that?Ade: Awesome.Zach: So talk to me about, like, what was it? Like, I know we talked about--like, your journey, you've had some updates in your life and what you've been doing professionally and personally. Like, what was it that we're gonna be listening to in a minute?Ade: Yep. I'm just gonna take a sip of my mimosa, because I just feel really good about where I am right now spiritually, so...Zach: There you go.Ade: [clears throat] La la la la. All right, y'all. So your girl is officially a junior software engineer. [champagne popping sfx] Pop! [laughs] Yeah, no. I started my new position as a junior software engineer, and it's honestly been surreal, my entire experience. I applied for a job, got a call back almost instantaneously. So I made it through the first call, the phone screening with the recruiter, and then I had a technical interview, and then I had an in-person interview that was also sort of technical, and then I had a job offer. And all of that took the span of a week and a half. I literally applied to the job on a Wednesday. The Friday after that--like, the week after that, on Friday, I had the job offer in my hand, and I actually had a competing job offer to move to Boston at the time. So it was--it honestly was an incredibly surreal experience. I went from there were days I would literally wake up to, like, five, six, seven, eight letters of rejection in my email first thing in the morning, and I would like to kind of explore a little bit further the toll that job searching takes on your mental health, because there's--there were certainly days when I would literally just feel dejected. In a society where you are kind of graded--not just graded, your worth is judged off of, you know, in relation to you and relation to your humanity, how much are you worth within a capitalistic system? And my job at the time was incredibly toxic. I felt dejected pretty much every single day waking up, but that wasn't the end of it, and I am so glad it wasn't. And it was, you know, thanks to people like you, people like my best friend Kendall, people like Liz, who really, like, affirmed me, because I have a tendency to internalize situations and, you know, look for ways in which these things were my fault. And I remember even having a conversation with Liz where she literally said, "These are all symptoms of an emotionally abusive relationship," and I'm like, "How do you have an emotionally abusive relationship with your job?" [laughs] But that's entirely real. It's a real thing, and just being able to step back from all of that and literally, like, wash my hands off at the end of the year and never have to speak to those people again or never have to be in a situation in which I feel as though I'm compromising my mental health for the sake of I have to take care of my family and I have to protect what's mine... yeah, you guys are gonna hear a whole lot more of that as the episode continues, but I'm nothing short of eternally grateful for the fact that 2019 is over, but it's over and I took it like a G. Zach: Yo, and shout-out to you for that. [both laugh] Yo, 2019 was hard.Ade: 2019 whooped my ass, okay? But you know what? I whooped it back.Zach: Listen, 2019 was--2019 was coming from your boy's neck, okay? It was like, "We're coming for you, sucka." It's like, "My gosh, leave me alone, 2019. What y'all doing?" But you're right though, and you know what? Look, it's a new year.Ade: Yep. New me.Zach: Yeah, it's a new year. New spaces, new mindsets. You know, new opportunities and just space to reset and really get bcak on it, right? Like, I'm hoping that most of us were able to take some time away for the holidays so we could come back at least somewhat refreshed for a new year, a new decade. You know, a lot of people have been saying new decade and stuff, but let's just take every day as a blessing that it's a new day, right? Like, you may not see 2030, right? But you have--if you're listening to this right now, you have this day today. And so just being excited about that. Let's see here. We're gonna transition over there. Before we do that, Ade, is there anything else that we need to talk about?Ade: I do want to make a quick note about--so we're currently in a time of upheaval. I'm not gonna make too much reference to that, I just want to kind of make the point--well, two points, one that we don't lose sight of humanity as a whole in trying to protect our daily reality, and two that you don't let whatever's happening in the news cycle sway you off of the intentions that you've set for this year. You set those intentions for a reason. You set those goals, whatever that you did, for a reason, and hopefully you are recognizing all the ways in which the news cycle could be causing any number of anxious or negative thoughts or anything like that, but I do want you to be able to step back, and by you I mean the entire Living Corporate family. Be able to recognize when you are stuck in a feedback loop of negative thoughts, negative news, negative content, and kind of find your way back to your center, because as long as there is a world out there, there is always going to be negativity to feed into, but don't let your 2020 start off with that. We literally just kicked 2019's butt. 2020, let's focus more on our communities. Let's focus on our mental health and smashing our goals.Zach: Yo, amen to that, you know what I'm saying? Like, I super agree. [Ade snapping in the background, laughing] And, you know, I think what you're speaking to also is, like--so you talked about upheaval. That reminds me of two things. One, I just read this article--and I'll put it in the show notes--called Democracy Grief is Real, and it's an opinion piece from the New York Times, which is, like--we can talk about the New York Times at a separate time, but this particular piece was very good, and just talking about the toll, the mental and emotional toll, that the world's events has taken on you. Like, just being more and more aware of, like, systemic injustices, oppression and, like, blatant unethical behaviors, like, just the impact that it has on you just living, right? Just you seeing that, what does it do to you? And I think, you know, to that point, like, I'm really excited because this season, we're gonna be talking about real structural inequity. We're gonna be talking about--like, we're really gonna be calling out white supremacy and patriarchy and privilege and access and holding people, institutions of power, to account when it comes to how they can better support and create more equitable places for black and brown folks, for underrrepresented folks, for non- straight white able-bodied men to work and to exist and to live, you know? I think 2020 is gonna be a really interesting decade in that you have, like--I think that there's a certain level of consciousness that, like, people are waking up to. I don't think there's gonna be some great revival or anything like that, so don't misquote me, but I do think that, like, certain things are coming to a head. I do think that, like, when you talk about diversity, equity and inclusion work, there just is gonna be less and less space for, like, the corporatized, white-washed talk tracks that we typically hear. I think that--I just don't see those things surviving. I think that, like, technology and just access is changing for black and brown folks to the point where--and this generation, like, they're just not gonna stay. Like, they're just not gonna stay and put up with being mistreated. And we've seen it already. Like, we've seen it. First of all, this is not a new phenomenon. We've seen this since--we've seen this from the jump, for black folks at least, but just for all oppressed groups in America, eventually there's going to be resistance, and I just think that that's bubbling up into these very, like, corporate spaces too, and so I'm excited because some of the guests that we have this season are really gonna be getting into that, really giving, like, really honest and approachable at the same time advice on what leaders can be doing to either disrupt or dismantle systems that have historically disadvantaged black and brown folks, underrepresented folks, and I'm just really excited about that. Like, we had a few people hit me up last season, Ade, like, kind of salty about, like, the content.Ade: Really?Zach: Yeah, just a little bit. Like, just a little.Ade: Why though?Zach: Why? Well, they were like--they just felt like some of it was a little too--a little too honest, a little too black, you know what I'm saying? But--Ade: May I address that real quick?Zach: Go ahead. [laughing] Ade: Ah, let me lubricate my throat. [clears throat] ~Kick rocks.~Zach: [laughs] There are folks who want to do diversity, equity and inclusion, but they're trying to figure out a way to do it without, like, offending white folks or offending the people in the majority, so--Ade: Which I don't understand. I don't believe your sincerity as someone who professes that--and I recently saw a tweet, and I wish I could quote my source, but I saw someone say "Switch the D in DE&I from Diversity to Decolonization."Zach: Oooooooh! Ade: Fire.Zach: That--wait, hold--what? Yo, that is--Ade: Fire. Fire.Zach: No, that is--[Flex bomb sfx] That is fiiiiiiiireeeee. Are you kidding me? [air horns sfx] Switch the D from diversity to decolonization?Ade: Bro, it literally changed for me the entire framework of DE&I, because if you were taking a liberation stance within the context of what a workplace environment needs to be, you are approaching that from the context of not only do we not care about your discomfort, we're actually actively pursuing your discomfort because your discomfort is where your decolonization lies. Like, that's where you're going to address all of the biases you have that you've had the privilege thus far of not having to confront. And not even your biases, but we're, like, actively taking back space from you and giving voice to the people that have been deliberately silenced in these spaces. So again, the reason I say kick rocks is because, I mean, we're decolonizing this space. This is a decolonized space, my accent aside, so we're really not--[both laughing] Inside joke. So as far as I'm concerned, like, there's no such thing as prioritizing the feelings of the oppressor over the oppressed. And yes, by default, if you are not the oppressed, you are the oppressor. That's--Zach: And this is a binary that we actually accept on Living Corporate, you know what I'm saying? You know, we affirm LGBTQIA+ identity, right? You know what I'm saying? We had content last season about being non-binary. Yo, that's great though. I'm trying to find this tweet that you said. If you just made that up it's still fire, but--Ade: I swear I saw it on Twitter.Zach: It's just a great quote. I love that. I love that. But no, you're absolutely right, and I think it's interesting because when you hear some of the episodes--when y'all hear some of the episodes that, like, we have this upcoming season, it's all about, like--like, these are people who are CEOs of, like, diversity, equity and inclusion firms. Like, they're consultants. They're executives. And I'm noticing there are certain, like, benchmarks around, like--you can kind of tell, like, kind of just where people are, but most people tie the diversity--they tie equity to justice, right? Like, when you talk about the true DE&I work in this space, it's all about justice, and it's interesting because I've seen, like, executives of, like, major corporations talk about--there was a recent article from Harvard Business Review about creating, like, black equity at work, and I was like, "Look, y'all are retweeting that. Consider what this means before y'all start saying you want equity at work." Equity at work means, like, a certain level of, like, right-sizing (?) and really, like, restorative behaviors that, like, America hasn't even, like, grasped onto yet. So, like, the concept of equity when it's truly driven to, like, its--like, when it's really grasped is, like, radical. Like, that's a radical thing to propose, and it would disrupt and disassemble so many things that have been longstanding, that have been comforting, to those in the majority, and so anyway... my whole point is that, like, I'm looking forward to, like, scaring myself with the content that we're putting out this season. I don't want to make--I don't want to pull any punches. I'm just excited about this season. So if you're listening to this and you're passionate about being seen, being heard, you're underrepresented, or you're an advocate, an ally of the underrepresented at work, and you'd like to journey with us, you'd like to be on the show with us, just contact us through the website. I guess that's it, you know? What we're gonna do now is we'll pivot over to Ade's recording that she had, and this was last year, so if you hear any references that's what that's about, but we're really excited for y'all to check that out. Ade, any parting words before we transition up out of here?Ade: No, let's just, in 2020, resolve to live our best lives, and I mean that in, like, the healthiest way possible. I've been guilty of using that phrase to justify the worst of my excesses [?] in the past, and no promises that I won't do so again in 2020, but let's resolve to, you know, prioritize our health, and our mental health in particular, and, you know, check in on your friends, because many, many, many of your friends are having a difficult time and don't know how to say it, but I believe in the power of community, and I believe that we as a whole are capable of holding each other accountable, yes, but also really uplifting each other in ways that are awesome to behold. And I do mean that in the old school awesome--shout-out to Zach, you know, reviving the meanings of old words, but... [both laughing] Old school awesome in that, like, awe-inspiring [way]. But yeah, you're listening to Living Corporate, y'all. [both laughing] Peace.Zach: All right, y'all. Welcome to Season 3. Hope y'all stay around. Excited for y'all to come on this audio adventure with us this year, and we'll catch y'all, shoot, next week. Peace.Ade: What's up, y'all? This is Ade. I just wanted to pop my head back in. It's been a very, very long time since I've been around, and it's been intentional. It was an intentional break. I had to--this has been a very difficult year for me, but also one of the best years of my life. I had to take a step back from a lot of things and really reassess, you know, my journey, my progress, and really where I'm trying to go with my life. That sounds like a lot. Good news, bad news. Bad news is, you know, I turned 25 and I still don't know what I'm doing. [laughs] I still don't truly know the meaning of life, my life, but, you know, it's cool. I'm still defining that, building my parachute on the way down. Good news. Remember when I said I wanted to be an engineer? I did it! I got an official offer, and I will be starting in my role very, very soon. Your girl is officially a full stock software engineer - junior software engineer, but a software engineer nonetheless, and I just kind of wanted to share what went into all of this. It's been nearly two years. Actually, it's been two years since I decided that I was gonna do this, and it's been I think the hardest thing I've ever done, and this episode is all about telling you how and why. This is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. In order to be successful, I have distilled all of the things that I've learned down to three key ingredients - grit, faith, and humor. So many of you have been following this podcast for a while, and you might not know, me, since I've been gone for such a long time, you may not know why I am where I am and what led me to deciding that I was gonna become a software engineer, and the story I always tell is that, you know, on the eve of my 23rd birthday I wrote 23 promises to myself, and the very first one was that I was gonna learn a new skill and I'd learn how to code. What a lot of you don't know is that the reason I even got there in the first place is because I went through a really, really bad break-up--and this is gonna be, like, super vulnerable, and I am not gonna make eye contact with anybody who listens to this for, like, a solid year, because I don't bare my soul this often. [laughs] Yeah, so I went through a really bad break-up, and it had me questioning, you know, myself, my self-worth, whether I was a good person, and it really, like, shook me to my core, and in the midst of this break-up, right before my birthday, I had gone to a workshop called Hear Me Code. It's an organization now semi-defunct, but it's led by a lady named Shannon Turner, who takes an afternoon and just teaches a whole bunch of women the basics of Python. And there are three levels. There's Level 1, which is what I found myself in, and then you have Level 2, who are people who have already been to Level 1 who have the fundamentals and are trying to get a little bit better, and then you have Level 3, which is people who have been to both Level 1 and 2 or are more intermediate programmers and are, like, [?] projects and all of that, all of the other fun stuff. Now, into this little story is where I find myself. I went to this thing. I had dropped out of grad school. I was, again, in the middle of this, like, super toxic break-up, and I just needed to feel good about myself, and so I decided, "You know what? I'm gonna be spontaneous and I'm gonna do this thing." And I had this old rinky-dink laptop. It took, like, 15 minutes to get started. And I didn't know a thing about anything. My whole life up until this point had been political science and sociology and philosophy, and I consider myself a relatively cerebral person, but, like, not smart. Like, I was not--I didn't consider myself in any way technical. I avoided math like my life depended on not knowing what, like, algebra was. It really--I defined myself as a person who was incapable of doing certain things, and programming would be one of those things, and so in this time when I found myself and my definition of myself unraveling, I needed to know that I was still capable of finding joy in the little things. So I went to this workshop, and I loved it. Like, my computer couldn't, like, do anything, so I actually found myself on a website called Repl.it, and it's basically, like, an online environment where you can write code and run it and see it work, and you don't necessarily need to have, like, mastery over your terminal, you don't need to concern yourself with anything that's going on on the backend. You can literally just, like, print "hello world," and it'll print hello world, and it is a magical, magical place. And this was important because first it showed me the value of creating. Never considered myself a creative, but being able to be in a space where I was literally, like, forming whole things and commanding the computer to do something and it did it, I felt powerful. I felt like a magician. I thought, "You know what? I'm gonna learn how to code," but then my computer died and I packed that up, and I didn't really pick up programming again for several months after and then came the end of October. I had, you know, moved out of my apartment at the time. Again, this, like, really, really scary thing had happened to me with my ex, and I had moved home, and I felt like a failure, and I was, like, laying in a sleeping bag next to my mom's bed, and I was up all night just, like, writing these promises to myself. I had sourced promises from other people, but the very first thing I could recall thinking was, like, "I want to be better. I want to be a better version of myself, and the gap between who I am now and the best version of myself can be bridged. I know it." So I thought "You know what? I'm gonna challenge myself. I'm gonna make these promises, and I'm going to keep t hem, and I'm going to find 24-year-old Ade to be a better version than 23-year-old Ade, period. No questions about it. I'm not doing this again." So I wrote those promises and I asked the people I love to hold me to them, and in the next year I moved out--like, I think three weeks after that I found another apartment, moved out to Alexandria, found a job that I really liked, and it all seemed to be coming together, but then my computer, the old rinky-dink computer, just died, and I didn't have a whole lot of, like, personal time, so programming just kind of went by the wayside. Like, I would pick it up every once in a while, and I would complete a couple of sessions or a couple of lessons, and that'd be that, but then I applied for this Udacity scholership and I got it, which, if you know anything about me it's that, like, I really don't win things very often, which goes into the narrative that you tell yourself about yourself, right? About whether or not you're a winner or whether or not you're deserving, whether or not, like, this life thing is a thing that you can succeed at. And, like, as a side-bar, negative self-talk has been a thing for me as long as I can remember. I have never been the sort of person who wakes up in the morning and is like, "You can do this. You're amazing. You're awesome. You can take anything that life throws at you," etc. A. I'm not a morning person, so, like, don't talk to me until 11:00 a.m., and B. I just never had the voices in my head that were, like, super positive. Like, all the voices in my head were kind of assholes. Sorry to whoever's listening to this and doesn't like bad words, but they were, and so throughout this process I've actually learned that, like, affirmations are a huge, huge, huge thing for your mental health, and it's something that I incorporate now into, like, my life. Like, affirmations. You need to hear yourself speaking well of yourself to yourself, and if you take nothing else from this podcast, take that. So we're back in, what is this, 2018? Yeah. Is it 2018? I don't think it's 2018. What is this, 2019? The years melt together. Yeah, it is 2018 actually. So in 2018 I have this fantastic job, friends, and I meet somebody new, and everything is going swimmingly, but I'm not truly, like, learning at the pace that I should be, so I'm going to tell you about the very first mistake that I think I made out of--the biggest mistake I made, not the very first one, because whoo, there were many. There were many, they were varied, and they were huge. Now the very first mistake I made was that I let myself get distracted. Life is not a distraction. Joy is not a distraction. Being social, letting yourself love and be love is not a distraction. What is a distraction is when you create a goal for yourself and you do not take the necessary steps in order to get there. Now, there were times throughout this journey--and anybody who knows me can attest to this--where I'd work a full work day and I'd come home and work until 2, 3, 4, 5:00 a.m. in the morning even studying, or I'd wake up at 2:00 a.m. and study all the way through, get dressed, go to work, come back home, continue studying. And I'm not saying that that's something that you have to do, I'm just saying that it's what I did. Then there were days where for, like, weeks at a time, I would not pick up a book. I would not open my Udacity course. None of those things. And allowing yourself to be distracted in that way is doing yourself a disservice, not only because your brain relies on consistency--like, you literally need consistency in order to get anywhere, right? Like, sometimes we have this fantasy in our heads that, like, we're smart, so all it'll take is, like, the movie montage of, like, a week of studying something, then you'll be perfect at it. But if you've ever heard of the tale of 10,000 hours, like... Lebron James and Gordon Ramsey and Insert Person Who Has A Mastery Of Their Art Here didn't get where they got because they put in a week of work. It required constant effort and practice to attain perfection, and allowing myself to get distracted was so much more detrimental than the times in which I would go at something for hours at a time, simply because during the distractions are where your negative self-talk becomes the loudest, right? Like, when the voices in your head that are telling you you're not capable of doing it, in that lull, that's when they seem right, right? Like, you don't do something correctly and you say, "Oh, my God. I'm never gonna amount to this lofty goal that I set for myself," right? Then you procrastinate and then you walk away, and now you have one more goal unfulfilled. So if you take, yet again, nothing else from this podcast, consistency is key. So if you remember at the beginning of this conversation I said "grit, faith, and humor." So grit is the concept that you are persistent, that you allow yourself to fail and you pick yourself up and you keep going. Actually, over the course of my studies I developed a mantra for myself because it got to be almost crippling, this fear that I had of failing, so I'm gonna read it to you guys. I hope it's helpful. I hope you guys like it. So here's my mantra: "This is why I'm here. I like succeeding at the difficult things. I like the win. I like the burning in my lungs and the adrenaline in my veins. I like the view from the top of the mountain and knowing I conquered. I am not a quitter. I do not lose. I will not be defeated by the gaps in my knowledge. I will not be defined by what I cannot do. I believe in my ability to make sense and wholeness out of the things that are new and scary. I will not be ruled by fear. Ever." There were days where I would write that mantra out to myself over and over and over again on a pen and a pad of paper. I would type that out before I got started sometimes on my lessons. I would read it over and over and over at myself in the mirror. Because fundamentally, this thing that I'm doing where I'm trying to, like, shift the course of my life--and it felt like the weight of my whole family was on my shoulders--that's scary. It's intimidating. If you don't have grit, it might crush you. And that goes for literally anything. For those of us who are underrepresented minorities, who are first-gen, who are the first in our families to attain a certain level of success, you know how scary that success is and the bare-knuckled grit that you have on everything to make sure that nothing falls and nothing fails. You have to let go of that. That fear is only keeping you from being the best version of yourself. By the way, this whole process didn't turn me into, like, a motivational speaker either. So [laughs] if you want to, like, skip through half of this, that's totally okay. I'm not taking offense. All right, so I told you why you need grit. Now why do you need faith? Faith got me through the worst of what grit couldn't. After I got to a place where, you know, I had done all of the things that people say that you need to do--you learn the fundamentals, and then you learn the framework, then you build projects, build more projects, build a portfolio, build more projects--after I did all that I started applying. I applied to internships. I applied to externships. I applied to jobs in Poland. I applied to jobs in Iceland. I applied to jobs that would require me to live in places where it's -20 degrees on a regular-degular-schmegular day, and I don't know if you know me, but I'm African, and we don't do that. [laughs] And every single time I got, like, a "No, thank you. Sorry, but no thank you. We have decided to move on to other candidates at this time. Best of luck." One that actually really shattered me--I got all the way through a lot of the screening questions, and this company that shall not be named sent me a link to a personality quiz. And I took it. I was like, "Okay, cool. Whatever." And then they sent me an email back like, "Sorry, your personality is not best-suited for my company." I'm like, "Wow. My whole personality, fam? My whole personality is not best-suited to be a software engineer? Bet." But I had faith, right? Like, you reach a plateau once you have done the work and you've put in the effort and you've put in your blood, sweat, and tears--I actually bled once. Long story. Don't want to talk about it. [laughs]--and yes, there were lots and lots of tears, but once you get there there's a certain faith that you have, right? And it helps when you have people around you who keep you keeping the faith. For me, I had my best friend. My best friend is also a self-taught developer, and it's really uncanny, but we're the same person. He has, like, 8 years on me, but we are genuinely, like, the same person. It is so odd. We have the exact same reactions to things, the same mentality, but he's a better version, right? Like, he's had 8 years to hone his craft. And the level of dedication and will that he showed, I had to level up. I had to match that level of intensity, and when I ever felt like I couldn't do it, he always came through with a pep talk. Before my very last interview where I got this position, I will never forget. I was on my way to my interview, and he literally said, "You're not looking for a job to be a developer. You are a developer. You're just looking for a chance to prove it." And that confidence I think showed up in my interview, because I have never spoken so confidently about MPC controllers. [laughs] I've never spoken so confidently about use-state hooks in my life. And that faith that I had that everything was gonna work out, I keep that still, right? Like, ever since I got the position, I've had the recurring thoughts of "What if I get there and I flame out? What if they rescind their offer three days before I get there?" You know, any number of, like, worst-case scenarios, and I now have this new voice--super quiet, but it's there--that's saying, "Bro, you'll be okay. The same way you got that job is the same way that if anything happens to that job you'll get another, because you've done the work. You've done the work and you've gotten this far. Doesn't matter what anybody else says now." So last thing you'll need is a sense of humor. You may have heard me chuckling a few times, and that's because I remember the number of days where I literally would have to get up in the middle of my studies and have a dance break. I would reward myself with dance breaks, whether or not my code was actually working, because I felt that because all of this was so heavy and because I needed to tap into my, like, inner wells of grit and strength that I did not have before I started this process--trust me, I was a wilting flower in the sun before any of this got started, and I'm still a wilting flower in the sun in a lot of ways, but--levity and humor are so underrated, because it literally lightens your spirit, right? Like, finding a way to find a way to laugh will take you far, not only because it shows that, like, you're still here, like, the core of your personality has not changed, it also shows that, like, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. You might feel like you're going through the crucible of your life at this point, but at the end of it life is still what you make it, right? And I just laugh through things. I choose to find the levity and find the joy and find the light and hold onto it, and that's all I'm gonna say about that. In whatever ways you find humor and find joy, I encourage you to hold onto that. So now some actionable tips, because I've just been giving you the feels. [laughs] Some real things that you can actually do if you want to be a developer. #1: Set a goal. That was the very first mistake that I made. I said, "I want to learn how to code." I didn't say, "I want to learn how to be a front-end developer or a back-end developer or a full-stack developer or a DevOps engineer." If you don't know what any of those things are, good. Go look them up. Anybody these days who asks me how they can break into tech, how they can learn how to code, how any of those things, the very first thing you need to do is define your goal, set it, and then develop your roadmap, because otherwise you are literally going to be twisting in the wind because you have no idea where you're going. There's nothing worse than a nebulous understanding of what you want. If you start a journey, you have to know where you're going. I mean, sure, you can do what I did and, like, get in the car and say, "I want to go somewhere," and, like, find yourself stranded in the middle of Oklahoma... but, like, I wouldn't advise that. Don't do that. Do it the smart way. Define what you actually want to do. Sometimes you might, like, look up what front-end developers do and be like, "Yeaaaaaaaah, no. How about I go into cybersecurity?" Like, it's an entire about-face, which is why you need to--it's a good thing to do to define the parameters. It also helps you know when you have succeeded, right? A lot of the fear that I had when I first started to apply to positions was that, like, I don't know that I'm a developer yet, right? I don't know that I'm good enough to apply to places, and that's because I never defined for myself what it means to be good enough to apply to places, right? There are places that will take you when you are, like, an unformed ball of Play-Do and fashion a developer out of you, and then there are places that want you to show up as Michelangelo's David and then, and only then, will they give you a position in the company, and then there are places that are vastly varied in-between and you have to figure out what it means to, like, throw your dart at one of those places in-between or, you know, whatever end of the spectrum you want to live in, and know that you're able to get into those doors. Set a goal. #2: It is okay to reassess or change your mind. When I first got started, I said, "I'm gonna be a front-end developer." Actually, no, I said, "I'm gonna be a full-stack developer," and then I said, "I want to be a blockchain engineer." And then I said, "I don't want to do this at all actually. Never mind. I change my mind." And then I said, "You know what? Being a full-stack engineer sounds good. How about I do that?" You can do that, just make sure it all goes back to #1. Make sure that once you've changed your mind, once you've reassessed, once you've course-corrected, you still set a goal and define for yourself what it means to have reached it. Cool. #3: Learn from others. I cannot stress this enough. Learn from others. Learn. Learn from others. Quick ASMR for your head top. Learn from others. It's important. A. This is an industry, tech in general, that is far more collaborative than you might think it is. If the idea you have of hackers in your head is the person who's, like, in a basement somewhere and frantically, like, typing on their keyboard and I don't understand how they haven't broken their keyboard, but they're frantically typing and you see a whole bunch of, like, green letters and numbers on their screen, and it's great, and then, like, five seconds after they stop typing--[Ade types frantically]--"Got it! I'm in." Yeah, no. That's... no. If I'm typing that furiously, it's because I'm looking around on StackOverflow trying to figure out where I went wrong. There are whole communities on Reddit, StackOverflow, Free Code Camp, which are geared towards helping you not sit and look for six hours for an answer to a question that 100 million people have also spent six hours searching for an answer to. Like, you literally can go to StackOverflow or, like, type out whatever your error is, and then at the end of your error type "StackOverflow," and I can almost guarantee you--like, you're not the first person to break whatever it is that you broke. There is nothing new under the sun. Maybe a new language, maybe a new framework, maybe a new whatever, but there is something that is so new that somebody else hasn't thought about it, asked that question and probably solved it. So yeah, allow the successes and failures of others to help inform you. Learning from others is not just about being online. Part of the thing that helped me, I went to meet-ups. I actually briefly served as an organizer for Black Code Collective, which, like, will forever have my heart. Women Who Code, [?]. There's so many different meet-ups. And, you know, D.C.'s not unique in having those organizations. They're all over. Go to meetup.com, as long as it exists, and look for those communities near you, and be intentional about the workshops that you go to, the people that you meet, because those networks are also important. You do not have the luxury, if you're a self-taught developer, of sitting back and waiting for the universe to, like, drop knowledge or networks or contacts or jobs into your lap. You have to do the legwork of developing and building those communities for yourself, which brings me to my final point. Standing on the shoulders of giants still requires you to do the work. I'm gonna repeat that because I kind of said it fast. Standing on the shoulders of giants still requires you to do the work. One more time for those in the back. Standing on the shoulders of giants still requires you to do the work. You have to do the work. There are no shortcuts through it. I'm not one of those people that, like, tells you, "You have to work 50, 60 hour weeks in order to get where I am." I'm telling you what I did. But there's something universal about what anybody else has done. You have to do the work. We all have done the work. We're going to continue doing the work, because this is not an industry that stagnates. I'm sure whatever I learned back in 2018--I mean, literally, what I learned in 2018 about React has changed because of React Hooks. So I don't know what to tell you. You have to do the work. There's nobody who's gonna, like, come and crack your skull open and dump all that there is to know about programming in your head or whatever it is that you want to study, whether you want to be, like, in cybersecurity, you want to be a PIN tester, you want to be a cloud engineer, cloud architect. None of those things are going to happen unless you do the work. You have to do the work, and for those of us--this is a part that I hate having to say, but for those of us who are underrepresented minorities, you will hear people say "Take shots that mediocre white men will take," because, you know, "They're a mediocre white man and they'll take it, so why can't you?" I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying that you have to pull up to those rooms as the person that you are because they will check you in ways that they won't check the mediocre white man. If there are gaps in your knowledge, that's something that a weekend of studying can fix. You cannot allow there to be gaps in your will. You cannot allow there to be gaps in your faith in yourself. Well, yeah, that comes right back to the very first thing that I mentioned - grit, faith, and humor. You cannot allow there to be gaps in any of those things. I hope this helped. I am also gonna be writing a thread about this later on. There's a thread out there, it's called #30DaysOfThreads, and I'm probably gonna be contributing to that hashtag just to share more concretely some of the tools, some of the resources that I've used, so I look forward to sharing some of that information with y'all. I really hoped that this helped and I wasn't just, like, ranting for no reason. [laughs] Which I've been known to do, and I hope that, for those of you who are going on a similar journey--and this has been pretty tech-specific thus far, but people do career pivots in any sort of direction, right? Like, there are people who are pivoting from having a 9-to-5 to being an entrepreneur, and I think there's some things that are universal. If you are pivoting from being a banker to being a teacher, there's some things that are universal. You are going to need grit. You are going to need faith. You are going to need humor. Maybe that should be the title of the show, I don't know. [laughs] All right, that's it from me. Thank you for listening. The Living Corporate family has been incredibly supportive. I want to thank Zach in particular for not giving up on me, because somewhere between all of those months--I think there were months at a time that I gave up on myself, and it showed, [laughs] but we're here now. I also want to give a quick shout-out to my grandma, who died I think two weeks before--was it two weeks? Yeah, two weeks before I actually got this position, and now I'm gonna be a little teary on the mic. Like I said, 2019 was a hard one, but... I come from a very long line of powerful, intelligent, capable women, and she was one of those, and the world is a slightly dimmer place without her, but... I gained an angel, and there's nothing more empowering than knowing that you did this thing, turned everything around for yourself, and being able to, like, look up and say, "I did it, and I know that she saw it." Okay, I'm gonna stop now. I've been, like, more vulnerable in this I want to say 40+ minutes than I've been in, like, a year, so this is my dose of vulnerability and realness. I'm gonna go back to masking my vulnerability with many, many things that I'm not gonna be discussing on this podcast. [laughs] All right, I'm gonna go. Thank you so much for listening, for your support, for your guidance, for your prayers. This has been Ade. You've been listening to Living Corporate. Peace!

Zach welcomes Angela L. Shaw back to the podcast to talk about what it looks like to both create opportunities for yourself and model inclusive behaviors as a leader and more. She also offers people of color three points of advice on how they can navigate the process of creating your own opportunities.Connect with Angela on LinkedIn!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now look, we have great guests on the show. Y'all should know this, right? And every now and then we get folks who come back to the show because, you know, we had such a great conversation. And look, I don't want people--if you came here one time, don't get in your feelings, okay? You can also come back, okay? These people just happened to come back, and we love the fact that they came back. If you're listening to this and you were only on the show one time and you're like "Dang, well, what's that supposed to mean about me?" Listen, hit us up, come on back, okay? That being said, we do have a returning guest, Ms. Angela Shaw. [kids cheering sfx] Angela, how are you doing? Welcome back.Angela: Thank you, Zach. I'm doing fantastic. I am on top of the world. I love my life. And thank you so much for letting me come back. I'm super excited to talk today.Zach: Oh, nah, nah, nah. You know what I'm saying? I mean, you know, when we found out, you know, you could come back, I was just over here like [that ain't no problem sfx]. You know, it's not a problem at all. Like, I'm excited that you're here, you know what I mean? Now look, the last time we spoke you were--you know, we were talking about professional reinvention and how you really, like, created an HR career for yourself, and really--you're also the president-elect of [?] Austin, right?Angela: That is correct.Zach: Right? So you were appointed, you know what I'm saying, as president, but you were not yet, you know, anointed as president, you know what I'm saying? So what have you been up to since then?Angela: Well, Zach, I'm president this year all year. [what it do baby Kawhi sfx, both laugh] And I'm making it count. And I want to say the reinvention continues. Like, it doesn't stop. It is a continuous thing. I am continuously trying to reinvent myself and stay relevant. This year as president has been so humbling, but it has been so successful and so wonderful. My platform as president is #PushForProgress related to diversity and inclusion, so I really in my chapter try to model the behavior that I think everybody else should have when it comes to being inclusive. The board, my board, they've gotten on board with that. They are also modeling that behavior. Our meetings have been successful. We're having great attendance. We just had our annual conference, and Zach, let me tell you, we had not one but two inclusion keynotes, and they were fire. They were fire. I feel like it's something that my organization had not seen before, and it was successful, and it was uplifting, and it was allied behavior, and it was just--it was wonderful. I'm just--I'm so blessed and, you know, just living life. I mean, I'm fortunate to love what I get to do every day.Zach: So let's take it a couple steps back. You talked about--'cause again, you kind of gave me, like, an overview, right, but I gotta slow it down. So you talked about folks practicing and you modeling inclusive behaviors and then people practicing inclusive behaviors. What does that mean to model inclusive behaviors as a leader?Angela: We all have bias. I know a lot of diversity and inclusion people talk about the bias that everybody else has, but I think as a leader in the space you break down your own bias first. So I know I have bias. I've had them, you know, just growing up with my experiences. It is difficult to not be hardened by your experiences, but I had to unpack my own boxes first. So I had to look at what my bias was, and how do I go into an organization like AHRMA in a city like Austin with long history--you know, 69 years this organization has been in Austin. How do I go in and unpack my boxes and be the leader that everybody wants to follow? And so I speak to everybody. I say hello to everybody. I give before I get. I make connections, you know? I model the behavior that I want everybody else on the board and in my organization to have, because for me diversity and inclusion is grassroots. That's how I think about it. So every person that I can touch and make them want to activate their power--power is dormant until you activate it, and not activating it is the same as doing something negative with it. You're complicit. So I encourage everybody to activate their power for inclusion, and I model that behavior first.Zach: I got you. Okay, so what I'm hearing is you're coming in, you are engaging people groups that you may have implicit biases or even, like, conscious bias of, in the effort of making sure that they are--that they feel included and that they're a part of the organization, and then your board members, be they white men, black women, Latinx, trans folks, like, whoever, they are also engaging and reaching out across their cohort [?] to make sure that they too are being inclusive and that they too are, like, making sure that people feel as if they have a voice and that they are empowered to speak up and things of that nature.Angela: Absolutely, and we do actual things, like have greeters that greet everybody who comes to a meeting, that introduce themselves, that take them into the room to a seat and introduce them to other people. We have a new member orientation that I attend, every single one, so that I can stand up and tell everybody welcome and how grateful we are that they're there and that they support our organization. You know, this is actual behavior that we all have in activating our power for inclusion.Zach: Really helpful, and I love that. So when we talk about inclusion, a large part of inclusion really is all about, like, redistributing power or ensuring that other folks who have been historically disempowered have a voice and have some type of authority to make actual decisions, right? It's not just that they sit at the table. You have to have a voice at that table, right? What does it look like for you in your chapter to support folks actually have a voice and having power?Angela: Yeah. So our actual board is diverse, so whenever I was thinking about adding people to the board or talking to people about coming onto our board, I was very intentional in my outreach. So I didn't want the board to just look like one thing. I wanted people to see males and females. I wanted people to see different ethnic groups. And we have a diverse board, so that was the first thing. And then it was, you know, selling my vision to everybody for them to understand where I was trying to go with that and make sure that they were on board with it, and they've all been on board with it. The result has been that people who attend our meetings and who attended our conference have also been diverse. So there had been historically underrepresented people who did not always feel welcome for whatever reason, right? They didn't feel welcome. You know, that's no longer the case, so I know for sure that [HR&P?] are talking about the Austin Human Resources Management Association and probably a little bit around the state and nationally. We are inclusive. We are saying it and we are walking the talk too, so this is not just talk. It is we're having behavior, and you can see it and you can feel it.Zach: [to this day sfx]. I'm listening to you. I hear you. [both laugh]Angela: Zach, it's the truth. I'm telling you the truth.Zach: I'm--hey, what you want me to do? I already got the soundboard for you. I mean, [straight up sfx]. I mean, okay, I heard you. Hey, you're preaching. I'm just here. I'm listening. I receive it. You talked about unpacking your boxes, right? So for you to unpack your boxes and really, like, be honest and open about your biases, that takes a certain level of trust, right? Like, you can't just come in here--so let me just give you an example, right? [laughs] So, like, if you was at work, right, and I'm not--this is not your job. Let's just say--let's put the heat on me, okay? So let's say I'm at my job and, like, my boss, who's a white man, you know, is trying to be honest about his biases, right, and all of a sudden he says, "You know, Zach, I just have to tell you, I just never really liked the blacks." I'd be like [record scratch sfx]. Right? Like, I'd be like, "What do you mean? You can't just say that." What does it look like to safely communicate and share your biases in a way that facilitates conversation and trust? Angela: Yeah. So I think if we talk about your boss making that statement to you, obviously there is, on your part, needs to be some understanding. So one, they felt safe enough to even say that, so you've created a safe space to have a conversation. So we're gonna give cool points for that. So it's not a situation where you attack, it's a situation where you listen. So you ask questions about "Where do you think that comes from? Is it about how you grew up? Is it about experiences you've had?" I mean, helping that person unpack their boxes. If it's the other way around, like, "How do I feel safe to go into a situation and, you know, say something about my bias?" For me it took a lot of practice to be able to do that. So just as a public speaker who talks about diversity and inclusion and a lot of different situations and circumstances, I've been blessed to be in a lot of different places, to be able to have these conversations. I've gotten a lot better at being able to say the words. And they don't always come out right, but I think you get back up and you keep moving. If you need to apologize you do, and you keep moving. I mean, that's the only way we will have real action. So as a speaker I'm actually very vulnerable. I do that on purpose, because I want to connect on an emotional level. I want to be seen as a real person. These are real situations and issues that happen. I'm a real person with real feelings. Everybody else that you encounter who is an underrepresented group are not. Everybody has real feelings, and so I always want to connect on that emotional level. So, you know, I'm okay with being vulnerable using my real experiences, talking to people about what has happened to me, but not just what has happened to me, but how it made me feel. And then I think the rest of that though is that what do I do about it afterwards? Zach: What do you mean? Like, what do you mean when you say "What do I do about it afterwards?" What does that mean? Angela: Right. So I've had situations where I feel like I didn't get opportunities for jobs, that people didn't, you know, give me an opportunity to even get in the door and have a conversation with them. So what would I do about that? Well, I created bodies of work that people couldn't deny. So people will ask for recommendations, right? So in Austin, if somebody asked for a recommendation for an HR person, whether it's hiring or they need a connection or whatever, that's what I'm saying. I put in work to be on that list of people that somebody's gonna say, "You should talk to her." You know, for me, I think I'm to a place where I'm not gonna apply into a black hole anymore and hope that somebody's gonna give me an opportunity.Zach: Hm. You're gonna have a real conversation.Angela: Yes. I have created bodies of work that will get me in the room to have the right conversations.Zach: That's real talk.Angela: That's what I mean. What did I do afterwards? I created bodies of work afterwards.Zach: I love it. You know what, this is incredible. If you had three points of advice, right, for people of color who are at a job, they're seeking to, you know, create--they're looking for something else, but they feel stuck, and they don't understand what it really looks like for them to, like, create a new opportunity for themselves. It's easy to be like, "Hey, create your own opportunity," or da-da-da, but what does it look like to get beyond, like--'cause on its face, right, it seems kind of self-helpish. Like, "Just do it," but there's an actual science and process behind it. What advice would you give to the folks who are looking for, like, that practical advice on how they can navigate forward?Angela: The first thing I would say is dream big, so know where you want to go. So whatever your biggest, best, brightest dreams are, write them down. Make them real. That would be the first thing. So know where you're trying to go and make it big. [coin sfx] The second thing I would say is to connect with other people. So inside your organization, outside of your organization, people not in your department. Just connect with people. So you take the first step to get to know people, to hear their story, to make those emotional connections, so that when opportunities come up you're in the conversation. People need to know who you are. You know, I've been saying a lot lately, "It's not who you know, it's who knows you." [coin sfx] So how are you creating those opportunities where people know you? And then the third thing I would say is to take on any project that you have the opportunity to be on. So instead of whining or saying no or having an attitude or "I need more money," take on projects. Expand your skills, you know? Expand your skill set. Do different things. Have lots of different skills in your toolbox. [coin sfx] And those would be the three things that I would say that anybody can do to get to that next step.Zach: All right, y'all. Now, look, y'all heard Angela give y'all these points of wisdom. I even put the coin sound effect after the fact so y'all pay attention, so don't be--okay, you know, you're sitting around looking and trying to figure out what's going on, and I'm looking back at you like [haha sfx]. You need to pay attention, okay? Angela, she's giving you the wisdom, okay? Look, this has been a great conversation, Angela. Any shout-outs or parting words before we let you go?Angela: Absolutely. I have to shout out AHRMA, my board, all of our members and volunteers who have helped make this a very, very successful year, and like last time, Zach, I have to shout you out, because you are giving people opportunities to tell their story and to touch people and to help and support people, and I think that that is fantastic, so thank you so much for that. You are lifting up people, and I want you to know that. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, look here, thank you so much, Angela, and thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Y'all know where we at. Google us, okay? Living Corporate. We out here. We're really out here though, so, like, just check us out. Just Google Living Corporate. 'Til next time. Catch y'all later.

Zach sits down with Alicia Wade, a results-driven leader who works as a district manager at Banana Republic, to speak about black female leadership. Alicia shares her career journey with us and offers some advice for young black and brown women entering the professional space. She and Zach also discuss the concept of proactive feedback and how to effectively solicit it at work.Alicia is the CEO of The HR Source - check it out!Connect with Alicia on LinkedIn and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, listen, you know what we do. We come to y'all and we bring to y'all, you know, some type of, you know, fire for your head top, right? We have some type of creative, executive leader, public servant, you know, public speaker, educator, entrepreneur, artist. You know, we have somebody, typically of the, you know, melanated variety, but sometimes not. Sometimes we've got some Winter Soldiers, or some Buckys, if you will. Some aspirational allies. But we're having real conversations that center black and brown experiences, and today is no different. Today we have the Alicia Wade. [air horns sfx] Now, listen here, for those who don't know, Alicia Wade actually was one of my first bosses. I'ma say bosses 'cause she is a boss, but she was one of the first people at my first job, when I worked at Target, that was in a leadership position that I had ever seen a black person in a leadership position--actually, the first time I had ever seen a black woman in a leadership position. But I don't want to go ahead and take away from her thunder, so I'ma go ahead and introduce her right now. Alicia, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Alicia: I am amazing. How are you doing today?Zach: I'm doing really, really well. Now, look, I gave a very, like, non-intro intro for you, so why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself?Alicia: Okay. Where do you want me to start? 1980? [laughs]Zach: You know what? 1980 would not be that bad. Was it the day time or was it late at night?Alicia: It was the morning in the spring.Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, for sure. [laughs] But no, I was--you know, I started--you know, to your point around starting as a boss, I really wasn't always a boss. Maybe bossy, but for sure. You know, I--kind of just giving a background of education and then really where I started my career, but, you know, I went to the University of Oklahoma, so I have to shout that out because, you know, the amazing Boomer Sooner, and I actually did--Zach: Okay, okay.Alicia: Yeah, my undergrad degree there, political science, communication, and then went straight to grad school. So for me I share that background because I just really, you know, was one of those black girls that had a list. I knew what I was gonna be. If you asked me when I was growing up, I just knew I was gonna be a lawyer, and then all that changed when I went to school and I was like, "I don't really wanna go to school for, like, three more years and, like, read and do all of that." So I went to grad school at Baldwin-Wallace. It's actually a university now. It was a college then. It is in Berea, Ohio. Do you know where Berea is?Zach: No, where is that?Alicia: So it is actually, you know, the campgrounds for the Cleveland Browns. So it is right outside of Cleveland in Ohio.Zach: Oh, okay, okay.Alicia: Yes, so if you fly into Cleveland, you're technically in Berea. So I was there, I did my MBA there, and I think through that journey I really realized that I had just a knack for wanting to be on teams, obviously being a student athlete and an athlete my whole life. I think that's really where I kind of moved into HR. So starting to your point around being one of your first bosses, I actually started with Target in their training program and did several roles there. So I had an opportunity to be at the store level, district and regional level in HR, and then actually--I was actually there for about 9 years and then moved onto Ross Dress for Less in an HR capacity and did that and then moved over to operations and did that for probably--well, how long when I was in operations there? For two years. So the total time I was there for 5 years, if you're following, and then now--Zach: I am.Alicia: Yeah. And then now currently I'm actually with Gap, Inc., with the Banana Republic division ["ow" sfx] as a district manager. So yeah, that's kind of where I am now.Zach: So that's incredible, and it's interesting. So today we're really talking about black female leadership, right? So you talked about this path that you went on, and then there were points in time where you kind of had to pivot, right? 'Cause you had this very clear plan. Can we talk about, like, what was the cause--what was the cause, like, for you to say, "Look, I don't want to do this particularly." 'Cause you said that you were drawn to being on teams, but, you know, you can be a team and still be a lawyer. So, like, what was the moment that made you say, "You know what? I need to do something different."?Alicia: Well, you know what? I think what I realized in being on teams is that, you know, kind of--I mean, I probably wouldn't say I had the words for it then or the language or even had done the discovery for my own, like, strength and [?] of what that really was, but I did realize that I was really good at making other people better. So to your point, being a track athlete. It could be, like, individual, right? You could do your thing and then also [?] relays, but I felt like at that point I did know that I was really good around motivating other people and that I had an energy that other people fed off of, and I don't know if that was necessarily--would have been [conveyed?] for me. Some people would have through a book or through research. So I just felt like, you know, that leadership role, I was always pushed in those roles. So, like, even when I was at OU, I was a black student president. I was in leadership roles through my sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha. If you have sound effects, it would be a good time to add that right there.Zach: You want, like, a skee-wee or something? I don't have anything like that. Aren't y'all--wait, y'all be suing people. I'm not messing with you on this. [both laugh]Alicia: It could just be an amazing, like, "Alpha! Kappa! Alpha!" So anyway--[both laugh]--you heard that? Like, that little echo? It was amazing.Zach: I did.Alicia: Yes, and you had a picture in your mind of it being magnified, right? [Zach laughing] But we digress. So, you know, through those experiences in college, I think that's where that discovery came for me.Zach: Okay. Okay, cool. No, no, no. Listen, I'ma tell you something, 'cause y'all do be suing people, 'cause I saw somebody was making a joke--somebody made a joke about Kamala Harris and they put that AKA symbol on there, and it was on Twitter, and all the reactions on Twitter was [Law and Order sfx]. I said, "Wait a second. Relax, everybody." [Alicia laughing]Alicia: Well, you know what? Well, at least that sound effects knows--I think all of us through our childhood know that something epic was about to happen. So at the very least it's like, "Wait a minute," and we got their attention, right? And we're compliant. We're compliant, so we're good.Zach: [ow sfx, laughing] All right, so let's talk about this, because you're--when you talk about the roles that you've had and kind of going through the leader--you went through a training program, right? So you went through, like, an actual development program when you started at Target. Can we talk a little bit about what are some of the core things you learned through that program and what are some pieces that you feel like you picked up through that program that you wouldn't have otherwise?Alicia: Oh, my gosh. You know, it was so interesting. I talked--it's funny, you know, looking at what you do now, right, and where I am, and how that all started there, right? And I see that a lot. So I talk to a lot of peers that are in so many different capacities now in their career, and we all talk about the commonality with this, right? So I think for me--the good part is when you work for a company that has very structured development, or I should say an expectation that a supervisor shows up a certain way. Even if somebody doesn't have the capability or even the want to do it, it happens. So with that being said, I didn't always have supervisors that were able to show up in that way for me, but I would say the biggest thing I've learned, and it's a life lesson, is how I manage my expectations of other people, right? And I share that because I hear that a lot, especially as I even mentor, you know, younger, to your point, black and brown people today. If they're entering to the workforce and they have this expectation because of someone's title or their age or, you know, maybe their past experiences, and when they don't get that they are very discouraged. So that was a big lesson for me because I just came in and--you know, being from Houston, I think, you know, when you think about, like, a Southern culture, you really, you know, have a lot of respect, you know, for people. So I was like, "Yes, ma'am," "No, sir," and then when I realized people didn't show up very professional in some cases, I had to--to your point through this program--really position myself to not let that be a distraction, and I share that background because I think one of the biggest things that I had to learn, particularly around communication, is I showed up very rigid in a lot of those environments, whether it was, you know, day-to-day, whether it was in a mixer or things--and there was a lot of promotional opportunities that passed me because people just didn't know who I was, you know? It was just kind of like--you know, it was--I showed up in the workplace thinking, "You just don't share those kind of things," right? Like, they don't need to know what I do at home. And people wanted to, and it was important. So it's interesting, even as you do the intro today to say I was the first person that you saw, right? A person of color that related to you. That was a journey for me to get there, to realize that, and that was a big learning. And even today, you know? Like, obviously with Coco, you know, in the tennis championships now and seeing her and all this conversation about how animated she is, and, you know, just--it's so raw. Like, that is kind of how I showed up, you know what I mean? And being an athlete, being an aggressive, being this--and that didn't always translate into positive for me. [laughs]Zach: No, no, I hear you. But this is the thing about that though, right? I think that we've also been--so I'ma speak for myself, and I've also seen, like, my peers, is black folks, you know, it's--there's a certain level of guardedness that we're taught to have just because, like, you know, "Look, there's only a few of us. Don't mess anything up. Don't put yourself out there too far." And I also think culturally we just have this thing around, like, sharing our personal business in ways that, like--there are things we just don't talk about at work, you know what I'm saying? And so there's this--but to your point though, there's this challenge of, like, "Okay, well, what's the line? How vulnerable can you make yourself?" Because people aren't gonna want to promote or work with somebody that they don't know. Like, most people anyway. I don't--I don't care. Listen, I just want to do the job. It's fine. But I'm learning, and I've learned, that, you know, people just feel more comfortable if they know you a little bit. And so my question is how did you create that cocktail for yourself? Like, how did you come into--you know, what is it that I really want to share? What will I still kind of hold back? Like, how did you kind of give yourself permission to be a bit more vulnerable at your job?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. So I can think of a couple of things. So I can think of an experience where I was actually interviewing, and I was pregnant at the time, and we were doing, like, a Skype, like, interview, because, you know, the actual people that were doing the mock interviews were in other locations, and it was an African-American female. She was in a supervisor position. And we're going through, and I'm thinking--and I share this story often--like, you know, I'm prepared. I've got all my notes. And the message I was trying to convey was someone who was reliable, right, and qualified. So I had all of that to the--you know, bringing that to the table, and I just remember her, like, cutting me off mid-sentence. Like, ugh. Who are you? I'm not feeling you right now, and you need to get it together. And, like, inside--you know, like, we all--we've done so much, particularly as African-American females, to pull it all together and present this package, and when someone is unraveling that it's like, "Wait a minute," right? And that's what happened in that moment for me. But to your point around creating that cocktail, that, like, having her say it's okay and seeing her show up as herself and still be professional, you know, and great at her job, like it wasn't this caricature, right? She was herself. She was professional. She was someone I looked up to, and she was still herself. She didn't become anybody else. It helped give me that courage. But I think for me, like, the steps towards that was me finding things that I was okay to share, right? Like, so to kind of, like, put a little, like, pinky toe in the water. So it's like, "Okay, I like to work out," you know? "So let me talk about that, and then maybe I'll build a connection," and then I just continued to build upon that, about things that, you know, I feel comfortable with, but then I think I learned in that is that that's what motivates people. And then I thought about--I made it personal. Like, I want to know what's important to my boss, right? Like, I want to know them as a person, and then when I started to meet with people and I started to, you know, move up in my career in multi-unit positions and interacted, to your point, at so many different levels with people, I was able to meet people at their level and then also connect at that level.Zach: So then what advice would you have, right, for the young black woman, young brown woman, coming into the professional space who does have it all together? 'Cause you're absolutely right, like, there is--and I believe this translates to black men as well. Like, you know, we try to come with, like, "Look, I got this, I got this. I'm tight. Like, I've got all of these different things. If they ask me this, I'ma say that. If they ask me this, I'ma say that." When you don't have someone who is gonna kind of give you the assurance that it's okay to be yourself and who isn't maybe, you know, guiding you along, what advice would you give to someone who is trying to break out of their shell a little bit?Alicia: Yeah. You know what? I would share--I guess this is where, like, the academic in me comes out, because I also teach at the University of Houston. So it's a great opportunity [ow sfx] as an adjunct professor--aye, let's go. I [?] from OU to our great Cougars here. Zach: To UH. Uh.Alicia: Yes, there we go. H-Town in the house. [both laugh] But one of the things that I share there with the students all of the time is around, like, the dialogue, right? And you have internal dialogue in yourself that you're having, and you can get distracted about maybe, you know, cues that you're not getting from people, right? So even in this conversation, there's things that you're doing that are affirming me that we're on track, right? And vice versa, and sometimes we don't get that, not because we're wrong--it's because you may be the first person that this, you know, particular person has interacted with like you, if that makes sense, right? So just because you may be sharing, right, about whatever that may be that's very personal or maybe you think is cultural and they're looking at you a certain way, that doesn't mean that that's wrong, right? Or that you shouldn't share it. It just may be a new experience, and you can't let those external things go along. Then it starts to spiral and you're not showing up as your authentic self. So I think you have to get to a place where "Hey, this is who I am," you know? And continue to show up that way, because any time I feel like you're--you feel like you are a fraud or you are trying to act like other people, you're never gonna come across as someone that other people want to be around anyway - in my opinion. So that would be my advice.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. Now, you know, you talked a little bit about your sorority, but, you know, everybody, Alicia, is not blessed to don the pink and green and wear the pearls and toss the [?] hair, right? Everybody don't have a community that they come into. So for the folks that are kind of doing [?], what does it look like--what would you suggest that they do to kind of build those networks in those kind of, like, trusted spaces?Alicia: Absolutely, and I think that is definitely something along the journey that I had to learn, even though I was in those environments, because no one in my family really has worked--like, most of--particularly the women are in education, right, and I was kind of brought up that if you weren't a teacher or a nurse, what do you do? Right? So I totally can relate to someone who maybe is not even able to go home or, especially as a new professional, being able to talk to your parents about your experiences, but I would say you have to be very intentional around finding--and not necessarily somebody that looks like you, but maybe they are--whether it's a position or they have the characteristics that you want to possess, that could be a star for you. I think the other piece is maybe somebody that's maybe struggling in the same area as you are, right? So let's say you see someone that is in a position that you want to be in, and let's say communication is your opportunity--it's, like, you're not necessarily the most articulate person, right, but you aspire to do, but you see that person is maybe in a certain role, connecting with them to ask, like, how did they work around that, right? And maybe you don't feel comfortable going straight to them. Maybe you're in an environment that that's not appropriate and you don't have that access to that person, but what events can you go to, right? Like, can you be intentional to say, "Hey, my work schedule doesn't necessarily afford me to do A, B, and C, but there is this networking opportunity at this time through my church," right? Look around you, and I think if you approach it, your development or an area of growth around the abundance as opposed to the limitations, you will find somebody that is gonna be willing to help you or even--they may not even realize they're helping you and you know you're going with that very intentional question and they can answer it for you and you get that nugget, right? [ow sfx] And then you just start believing it. Yes.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. And you know what? I just--I appreciate this because, you know, it's about being resourceful, right? Like, you've got to reach out and use and just think beyond, you know, your initial, you know, four corners or whatever and just reach out a bit, because there are resources available. You've got Google, which is, like, this huge thing where you can, like, type in things into this, like, little square, and then when you press Enter then a bunch of things pop up. You know, there's just all types of resources out there, so you gotta get busy. You gotta get out there.Alicia: Right. But I think to your exact question, even though we have so much information, people are not necessarily more informed per se about specific things when it comes to their career, and I challenge people, particularly to your point minorities a lot and people in my circle where, you know what, their Instagram is popping, their Facebook, like, you have all the great pictures, angles, but then you don't have a LinkedIn account or you don't have an updated resume or you don't have a CV. So it's like you've invested all of this time of creating and crafting this image but not necessarily the same for your professional, right?Zach: Wait a minute. [Flex bomb sfx] What you talking about? You're dropping these bombs over here talking about--so wait a second though, and I know you're church, so you're over here talking about "so you've crafted this image."Alicia: Yes, Jesus. We've got one of them anointed words right there, right? Yes, hallelujah. Zach: "But it's not real!" Then part of me, I was like ["and i oop" sfx]. You know what I'm saying? I was like, "Oh, my gosh." Like, that's real though. Alicia: Yes, wave your hands in there.Zach: No, that's true though.Alicia: Yes, it is, and it's just--recently I had a mentee that I was talking to, and she was preparing for an interview, but she'd post every day on, like, her Insta story, right? Like, videos. She looks beautiful in these videos. And I said, "Well, why don't you use something you do every day?" Like, you want to convey this message. Like, have you ever looked at yourself when you're trying to talk about your career? And she's like, "I never thought about that," and I said, "Well, you clearly like looking at yourself, right? So why don't you start there?" Like, it is around you. So that's what I would say. I think it's kind of step back, realize what you do have, and just start somewhere small, right? Like, it doesn't have to be a program that costs thousands of dollars. It doesn't have to be dropping the name of, you know, this person is my mentor or, you know, they have this title. It really may be the secretary in, you know, your particular office that is someone that is warm, that may be older than you that can give you some advice around navigating that environment that you can learn from at the level you're at right now.Zach: No, I love that. 100%. And I'm curious, you know, we talked a little bit about--again, we started off talking about leadership, and we talked about you coming into yourself. So that was self-management. Let's talk about what does it look like for you to manage others. Particularly what I'd like to talk about is, like, the art of influence, as well as really giving effective feedback. So you and I both--well, so you started at Target, I also started at Target, and I think a large part of the element of Target, the culture at the time was really about, like, you know, positive feedback, public praise, and I've seen that you've carried that forward in your positions with Gap, specifically Banana Republic, and how you give feedback. So can we talk a little bit about that and, like, your theory or your philosophy around feedback and, like, your practices on how you give it to your team?Alicia: Yeah, for sure. You know, I think feedback is something that I value, and I think it starts--you know, my brother and I talk about this all the time because he plays sports, actually football, and is currently still in the field with athletics, and we talk about how that shows up in the workplace of people that are used to being coached, right? Like, you're used to looking at a video and a group of people sitting around critiquing it, right? And really understanding that there's a moment that you have to capture right now. Like, you don't have another day or a week to wait. So I think that kind of shaped my philosophy per se, if there is one, is that you have to [?] find and be aware as a boss, right, or a manager of those coachable moments and not wait. You know, I think we've all been in situations where somebody sat us down and they had a list, and you think, like, "Wow." You know, like, all of these things that they're telling you that you need to get better at, or examples, and you're sitting there, and at a point you just look around like, "Wow, why didn't they tell me then?" Like, "I had no clue," right? So I think that's what I never want to be as a supervisor. I never want somebody to be shocked, right? And I also want them to know, like, "I'm giving you this feedback because I believe you can improve," right? 'Cause I think a lot of times, particularly--if I bring this to your point of our audience here of, like, black and brown people, particularly for black women, when I mentor them there's a lot of times the absence of feedback means that there's an absence of a problem. "Oh. Well, nobody told me that." It's like, "That does not mean that you didn't need to get better." And I think--I share that because the next part of it is, even in my self-journey and things like that or my own development, there's a lot of times I would get feedback and I would want to make it about the other person. Like, "Well, if they just got to know me, then they would know that's not really how I am." Like, "I'm not really like that," right? Or "If they gave me a chance to do it, then they would just know," opposed to thinking, "No, we're talking about this specific instance."Zach: Right now.Alicia: "Right now. Can you understand how you're showing up, how it could be--just the possibility of how it could be perceived this way?" And in that space, what can you control and move forward with? So I think with my team, I try to make sure that I create that--like, we create that as an agreed-upon communication from the beginning, right? Like, so they're not shocked, 'cause I don't want to assume that you've gotten this before, right? And I want you to also understand my intent. So we talked about in the beginning, like, "Hey, here's how I communicate. Here's what I do, and let me know if that works for you," and a lot of times I found that people don't really know how they like to get feedback until they get it. [laughs] 'Cause it's like, "Actually, I don't really want--" You know, they think that they don't like it or it's gonna be odd or it's, like, gonna be breaking them down, and then once they realize, like, this is gonna be a feedback-rich environment, then I think people buy in, but I also feel like it's a great way--I'm in a, you know, environment particularly in retail that moves very fast, right? And it is very results-driven. So if you are in an environment where productivity or--it's high-functioning, then I think it's very rewarding. I am aware that there are environments, right, like, when I go into, like, an educational space, where it's not as frequent, right? And you don't have--it's like an event when you get feedback. I think you really have to meet the person where they are, and I think you have to make sure that they understand where it's coming from, and that's my thoughts about it. Zach: No, I love that. And, you know, this is the thing, because--you know, background and upbringing is all very important, because I would just--for me, it was primarily my mom and I growing up, and my mom would just tell me all of the time, like, you know, "Hey, you need to do this better. You need to change da-da-da-da." Like, "You need to clean it up, boy. You're looking crazy out here." So it's not--it wasn't odd to me to get, like, direct feedback at work. I think it was reinforced by Target too 'cause Target was such a feedback--and I think retail is like that in general, as an industry, right? Because, like you said, it's results-driven, it's very action-oriented, and it's execution-focused and execution-oriented that you're gonna have to get this feedback 'cause we gotta get this stuff done, and so what has been a challenge for me though, Alicia, has been, like, transitioning outside of retail and just realizing, like, the--I don't know, like, just the fragility of folks. So, like, have you ever had a situation as a black person, as a black woman, giving feedback to a non-black person, and they, like, crumble like you've just destroyed them?Alicia: I have, yeah.Zach: Okay. Can we talk about it?Alicia: Yeah. You know, I can think of several. You know, there's one that's coming up, like, top of mind, but I probably would say it's pretty common, and this is how it happened. And to your point, you know, the person reacted very emotionally, and in that moment I had to pause and ask, like, "What are these tears about right now? Because what I'm saying shouldn't be causing tears," right? Like, I'm sharing an observation about something we already have--you know, sometimes you may have something that's very specific, right, that you can measure it, but I also find, particularly in being in the HR space, right, that it's very hard to coach people or for people to give feedback on something they can't measure. So to your point, you start having this very what feels like abstract conversation, like "What are we really talking about?" And then the person can become defensive if you don't have measurables to say, "Hey, look. See, this is what I mean." And in that particular conversation, that's what the person was--I would use the word argued. Maybe argued is not the right word, but they were, you know, disagreeing, right? Like, "Well, I don't see it that way," and I think we had to disagree in that space of "It is okay for you not to agree. However, what we have to agree upon is that you do have to value my opinion as your supervisor," right? "And let's also agree that we don't have to." Right? Like, we can be in this space and see this totally different--Zach: And it still be okay.Alicia: And it still be okay, you know? And I'm not asking you to change your perspective. I'm just putting you on notice, right, like, that this is the way that it looks to me and this is how I would like us to move forward, and in this particular conversation, the person was not ready to talk about the path forward. They weren't, because they were still stuck and just kind of thinking around, and I think you have to know, like, not to overbear--you know what I mean? Like, be overbearing.Zach: Yeah, overwhelming.Alicia: Yeah, overwhelming, 'cause this may be truly--regardless of their age, regardless of the position that they're in, this may be the first time that they've heard this, and you have to respect that, right? So to your point, you've grown up being told, like, "You're not all that. Okay, no, you need to go change," or, like, "Ugh," and that's not something that's crumbling for you, right? But someone that's never gotten honest feedback from someone that loves them, you don't know what that background is in the workplace, right? So somebody shows--Zach: That's real.Alicia: You know, somebody shows up, and then once again going back to that us being comfortable, right, and us being--like, you can't take that as that you did something wrong, because now you can retreat and not be operating in a space that you need to. So yeah, I've absolutely had that, and, you know, what I've done for me is that follow-up is really important. So comment back, like, "Let's agree upon a time on when it'll be good to revisit this," 'cause I find a lot of times for certain people avoidance is a tactic that they use, right, when it comes to conflict, and that's the most ineffective thing that you can do, right? Like, time does not cure all, right? In fact, it makes it worse, because we had this conversation 6 months ago and we still said nothing, right? Or that was last year during your annual review that we talked about it, or as a peer we worked on this project together, but that was--we only do that once a quarter, right? And I didn't really like working with you, and you had an attitude, or you were late, or I didn't really like the quality of your work, but we never really got to the root cause for us to move forward. So I come back to "Okay, you know, last time we spoke this is where we landed. How are you feeling today?" You know? And not let people off the hook with making it about you.Zach: You know, that's just a really good point. That last part is huge, because it is easy for me--'cause I'm a bit of a narcissist, so--[both laugh] Alicia: It's something you--right, but you can internalize it, right? Zach: Right, absolutely. Like, and so it's like, "Okay, well, then, clearly this is something I did wrong. Okay, how can I improve?" And, like, you know, a part of you thinks, like, "Oh, well, this is me being accountable." It's like, "Yeah, but you're being accountable at a toxic--at a point that's not even accurate or helpful," because you're centering yourself and internalizing to the point that we're not actually getting to a solution, you know what I mean?Alicia: Yeah. But I think too to your point around accountability, and this is something that I've, you know, from a learning--you know, to your question initially, that's an area where, like, accountability overused has gotten in the way, right, for me of, like, working too much or, you know, it could come across as aggressive, or--you know, those things, and you're really overly accountable, and I think that's where understanding what accountability and responsibility looks like, right? So you may be in that environment. You're accountable for whatever that project, and that's why you're giving this feedback, but that person is responsible as well, you know, to show up a certain way or deliver in those areas, and how do you balance that, you know, so it doesn't--like, obviously you gotta work on, maybe in that space, what you need to do, but there's also something that they needed to work on, and we can't be distracted about how it came across to them, per se.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and you're right, like, we do overuse that word, and, you know, I think--again, like, it's an old phrase, but, like, accountability is a two-way street. Like, it's not--because if one person is always accountable and the other person is never accountable, then that's--that's toxic. Like, that doesn't make sense.Alicia: Yes, and I think if you become--like, especially when we think about giving feedback, right, and we're thinking about whether that's from a generational or we think about from a cultural standpoint, we have to make sure that that's a two-way street, and if you're the only person trying to work through this relationship, then you really aren't growing in how to manage and work with people that don't look like you.Zach: You know, I just--[straight up sfx] I mean, you're right. What can I say?Alicia: Hol' up! [both laugh]Zach: Man. Okay, so this has been a great conversation. So, you know, there are times for me where--you talked earlier about, like, people giving you feedback and, like, sitting you down with a laundry list of feedback. We also just talked about accountability and responsibility. For me, I really enjoy the idea of soliciting feedback, because I'm trying to--like, you know, in the idea of you trying to sit me down and have some laundry list of stuff, I'm just over here like ["stupid, i'm not gonna let you get the chance" sfx] You know what I'm saying? I'm just trying to, like, make sure I'm proactive, okay? Alicia: [both laughing] Right, right. Like it's above me now, right?Zach: Listen. Okay, so my question to you is what are your thoughts on proactive feedback? And what are ways that you solicit feedback from your team and from your leadership?Alicia: Yeah. So this is--oh, my gosh, this is definitely a gem for me when I think about just development for myself. I think I've been in situations where I've had supervisors that weren't able to give me feedback, right, because I was meeting goals, I was doing a really good job, and it was meeting their expectations, right? So you go and you ask and you solicit and it's like, "Oh, it's great." Like, "There's nothing you can do better," and that's never worked for me, you know? And maybe because the way that I'm wired, you know? Like, I really want to even get feedback around, like, what did you like? Like, what am I doing well so I can know what to repeat, right? Or even how I got the result, and I find often that people may achieve a goal, right, or whatever it may be, and it's kind of like, "Okay, we're so excited," but they cannot articulate how, right? And for me I feel like that's kind of--there's a silver bullet or a magic sauce, a cocktail, right, that you're creating on how to repeat success. You have to know what you did, right? Because it may be a different environment. So for me, that's really important for personal feedback for me, whether it be from a supervisor, a peer, or even my direct reports. Like, if we feel like we're in a good space, right--and I would start with direct reports--that I manage, I want to know what you like, right? So if you feel like, "Hey, communication is great," I want them to be very specific, but that's just how I'm wired, right? Like, I want to know - do you prefer this type of communication? Do you prefer this type of recognition? Okay, when we're working on a project, what level of autonomy do you like? So I ask, you know? I think there's some people that it's really easy for them and those that aren't, so I'll set it up. If we're gonna have, for instance, a touch-base, or we know we're gonna have a formal sitting down, [I] say, "Hey, when we connect, I want to give some feedback on how that went," and I'll put it out there, right, whether that's in a conversation or even written, for them to prepare their thoughts. So that's something that's worked for me. I think with peers, I have something that's helped me, particularly around communication and working on how I come across, 'cause that was something early in my career and I think still today. Like, my non-verbals. You know, like, that face? Like, okay. Like, having somebody in the room, you know, or your tone to say, "Okay, hey, you know, yeah, you did come across this way." I've always tried to solicit people that can help me in that area, and if they aren't there someone that I've seen that is an expert in the area or better than me. I go to them to say, "Hey, do you mind if I reach out to you, like, once a month just to get your ideas? It doesn't have to be long. Would it be okay if I maybe text you or shoot this over to you and you give me some feedback?" That's really helped also break down, you know, some barriers where--I don't want to say competition per se, right, but it's helped people also give [me] more feedback that maybe they wouldn't before, right? Because I've already put out there, "Hey, I'm trying to get better here. You've already got this locked down. I'm trying to learn. Do you mind if I just--you know, if I send this to you and ask questions?" Most people are gonna be very open. So that's something that I do a lot, and that's how I would say I solicit feedback or try to.Zach: No, that's--no, no, no, that's great, and I think, again, to your point around, like, "Well, no one told me anything so it must be fine," it's like the only time that I--the only time I take that attitude where "nobody told me anything, it must be fine" is if I ask you for feedback and you say, "I don't have any feedback," and then you come back later with something, then I'm like, "Hey, wait a second. You big buggin' now."Alicia: And you know what? Here's one thing. And, you know, I think we learn a lot from also bad supervisors or people we didn't like working for, and that was one. I had a supervisor that comes to mind, and that's--this is why I would say I take the approach now, because she didn't necessarily know what she wanted things to look like, but she did--she was very good at critiquing what you put forward, and that was SO demotivating for me. In fact, it was--like, it was emotional, you know what I mean? Like, I would just be, like, hurt by it, because it was like--to your point--I went to you, asked you for feedback--"Hey, here's my plan. This is what I'm thinking. This is the approach I want to take." And they would be like, "Oh, yeah. Check, check. Great." And then I [?]--you know, I felt [I?] was taking huge leaps or a risk in some cases, right, and we agreed upon this is what we were gonna do going forward, and then she would come back if maybe there were other partners that felt a certain way or it didn't resonate with them or she saw it and then would, like, kind of break me down, you know what I mean? That list would come out of "Okay, well, you could've did this, and you could've did that," and in that--at that time, I shut down. You know? So it became--I won't say angry, but the hurt became--I just took a list, and then I thought, "I'm never gonna do that again," and that didn't help anybody, particularly me. So I think that's when I--to your point, trying to get ahead of it now, like, not letting somebody that says, "Oh, I don't have anything to share," get in the way--get in the way of me moving forward.Zach: No, you're 100% right, and I think--so it's both and, right? It's you were looking for the feedback. You were soliciting it, and then you--not using that as a blocker, right? No matter what you get. So if you don't get anything, don't use it as a blocker. If you get something that doesn't really align with what you think it is, then don't use it as a blocker either. Just make sure that it's something that you're taking the time to do, but it shouldn't impede you from moving forward towards whatever goals that you have. I think--like, a mentor that I have who--she's told me this a few different times. Shout-out to you, Liz. I see you. What's up?Alicia: Hey.Zach: Hey. Come on. So Liz was like "Look--" And Liz is a mentor of mine. She's a great friend, and she was also on the show a few episodes back, actually during Pride Month, but anyway, so look. Liz said--she said, "Look, Zach, you know, the beauty of feedback is you don't have to agree with it. You don't have to take all of it." Alicia: [laughs] Right.Zach: She was like, "You know, Zach, I think you're burdening yourself with every time someone gives you feedback, you take that as, like, a mandate that you need to change something." Like, that's not--that's not what feedback is. Feedback is something for you to consider. So the best thing you can say to someone giving you feedback? "Hey, thank you for your feedback." That's it. [laughs] That's it.Alicia: For sure, and that's so important to your point. It's like, there's--if you can compartmentalize things, right, then you can do something with it later, because that feedback may be relevant at another time, and then you can see it, right? When it shows up again, but today I don't necessarily have to create a plan based on what you said. I can just put there and say, "Oh, okay. That's Zach's feedback that he gave me today. Okay. All right. Hm. I don't necessarily see it, but thank you." And it stays right there. Yeah, I think that's awesome.Zach: And that's it. But I think some of the challenge when it comes to just, like, bias in the workplace, and, like, there's also, like, this underlying and sometimes overlying expectation that women, particularly black women, are just, like, the workhorses of whatever. So, you know, sometimes I've been told--you tell me if I'm right or wrong, but, like, sometimes people give you feedback with the expectation that you're just gonna do what they say, and it's like... that's not necessarily the case. Like, I'm just gonna take this feedback, and I will--I will make a determination as to how, or if, I implement it into what I'm doing.Alicia: Yes, for sure. I think--no, I agree, I think that is true for me and what I've seen. And even more, to take it a step further--'cause I know we've talked through a lot of tips on this podcast around, you know, how--you know, interviewing tips and moving forward, right? I see this a lot in interviewing people and them not being able to explain why they haven't moved forward, right? They feel like it's someone else's--you know, someone else's... I don't know even the word. Like, it's their responsibility or their fault. We'll use the word fault, right? Of "Okay, I'm here," and they can't say why, and to me it's like, "Okay, you've never gotten any feedback or no one's ever told you or you're not able to look at this job or see someone in that role and see what they do better than you and what--maybe even the one thing they do better than you--and what's held you back?" And that's the approach I take for feedback. Like, if you can think about it in that way opposed to, to your point, something that you have to change or take on or feel like you've got to bow down or become someone different, but really as a lens for you to see things that you may not be seeing. So that's what I see often, particularly for black women.Zach: Man, this has been great. Alicia, before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Alicia: Shout--I mean, when you say let you go, I feel like we've got to queue that Beyonce, and that has to be in the background that we have here, but--Zach: Again, I don't know what you don't understand about [Law and Order sfx]. We can't do that. I don't own Roc-a-Fella or whoever she--or whatever she signed that thing through, or House of Dereon, LLC. I don't know. Listen, we're gonna have that nice, you know what I'm saying, copyright-free jazz music that you hear in the background. Trying to get us in trouble. We already said AKA a few times. They're gonna be knocking on my door. Now you're talking about--Alicia: No, they're not. They're gonna be looking at this. We're gonna be--they're gonna be helping with [?] mass media, passing it out here. But no, seriously--Zach: Come on, now.Alicia: You know what I mean? But no, seriously, I want to--you know, if there's a recognition, I want to recognize you, because I think, you know, creating this space, A. to have conversation, is one thing, right? But I think you being very intentional around making sure that the conversation has different perspectives, whether that be from industry, you know, whatever, right? I think that this is just very phenomenal, and I've seen, like I've said, from the beginning when you first sent out this podcast to where you are now. So I just want to, you know, tip my hat to you, brother, and really seeing how you brought also other people in to expand--it's just fantastic. While keeping your full-time job. So round of applause. I'm super excited and just happy to be a part [kids cheering sfx]--yes. So anything, you know, that we can do in the future, any way I can continue to add to the conversation, would be the shout-out. So thank you as well. Zach: Oh, my goodness. Well, first of all, you've got me blushing. I'm turning purple. I appreciate this. And you know what? Shout-out to you, okay? 'Cause, like I said, you were one of the first people, and, you know, the thing about it--see, the thing about Alicia--now, look, I know we have this natural hair movement now and everything. Let me tell you something. Back in, like, 2011, I walked into Target doing my thing, Alicia came through edges LAID, okay?Alicia: All the time.Zach: Okay? Pearls. Pearls thick, y'all. Don't play. And she had heels on, and she was moving. She was working the floor. I was like, "Oh, my gosh. This is incredible." So shout-out to Alicia and your whole brand, everything that you do, everything that you've done. Shout-out to of course, you know what I'm saying, 1906, you know what I'm saying? I got y'all. Pink and green. I respect y'all. Please do not come for my neck. Please. I appreciate y'all. I did not put no logos on this stuff. Alicia: There will be a logo though, in the show notes.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Okay, yes, so we will put a logo in the show notes. It will show all of the legal information and that we are not indemnified by anything--[both laugh]Alicia: You are so silly, for sure.Zach: [laughs] Okay, but look, final air horns for you--[air horns sfx]--and you know what? This has been it, y'all. Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Of course this has been Zach. You've been listening to Alicia Wade. Now, look, I usually say all of the little Twitter stuff, but look, we brolic now, okay? So I don't have to say "follow us on this." Just Google Living Corporate, okay? Google me. What was that--oh, yeah, Teyana Taylor I think made that song called Google Me. But no, for real, shout-out to Teyana Taylor too, but look, Google me. Just Google Living Corporate. Living--L-I-V-I-N-G--Corporate. I'm not gonna spell out corporate. I don't have the time. But check us out. We're everywhere. Appreciate y'all. We'll talk to y'all soon. Peace.

Zach speaks with the founder and CEO of MINWO, Melanie Akwule, about effectively supporting women, specifically black and brown women, in the workplace. Melanie shares her experience as a black woman in corporate America and talks about MINWO's origin and its vision. She also offers up three points of advice for women of color who are looking to get into entrepreneurship and a whole lot more.Check out MINWO and connect with them on social media! LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookVisit Melanie's personal page and network with her on LinkedIn!Stop by our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a what? Not a C-Side, not a D-Side, but a B-Side. Now listen, it's 2019, so some of y'all don't even know, like, the reference of a B-Side, but, like, there was a point in time where, like, you know, musical content was on tapes and records, right? And you would, like--you know, you would flip it over. You would flip the record over, and that would be, like, the B-Side, right? And so the B-Sides were, like, the songs that weren't, like, the chart toppers, but they were still good songs, right? So, you know, that's really what we're trying to do here with B-Sides. But see, the thing about Living Corporate B-Sides is the B-Sides'll be hits too. It's kind of like when you think about Beyonce, right? Like, when you think about, like, a B-Side from Beyonce, like, it's still a hit, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's what we're trying to do with Living Corporate, you know what I'm saying? I'm not saying we're Beyonce. I'm just saying we're making hits doe. ["ow" sfx] That's all. Now, look, we've introduced, you know, plenty of guests, movers and shakers, business people, and, you know, today's no different. We have a great guest, Melanie Akwule. Melanie: Hello, hello.Zach: What's up? CEO and founder of MINWO, LLC, a company focused on building black wealth and black business. Melanie describes herself as living at the intersections of business and technology, black and female, African and American, introvert and extrovert, leading and supporting, and the trees and the forest, with a background in data science, product management, business administration, and diversity and inclusion. Come on, now. [kids applause sfx] So impressive. Melanie, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Melanie: I'm good. I'm great. What a time to be alive. Just living each day.Zach: No, I 100% agree. [straight up sfx]Melanie: Thanks so much for having me.Zach: No, thank you for being here. Now, look, I know I did a little bit of a short intro, but would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Melanie: Yeah. When you say it all like that I kind of sound like somebody, don't I? [laughs]Zach: [jokingly] Just a little bit though.Melanie: [laughs] Where do I start? Well, first off, I just finished up my MBA, so I am a free woman. You could not pay me to go back to class. [air horn sfx] Thank you. Yeah, I just finished my MBA from Berkeley Haas, so I'm still living out here in the Oakland area. Born and raised in Burke, Virginia. Wanted to shout out the 703 right quick. Like I mentioned, or like you mentioned, Nigerian-American, and really just out here trying to leave a legacy through my company.Zach: I love it, I love it. You know, there's so much there. We gotta talk about MINWO, right? Like, let's talk about the organization. Let's talk about the origin. Let's talk about the vision.Melanie: Yeah. So MINWO was something that was kind of birthed out of a necessity. I was one of those people that did not want to start a business. It was kind of like how in Atlanta every rapper has a mixtape. Well, in the Bay Area it's like everyone's an entrepreneur, everyone's a founder, so I was like, "No, that's not gonna be me," but, you know, life takes you in directions that you don't really--you can't really plan for. So in 2015 the George Zimmerman verdict came out, and I was livid, as was most of our community, and it really just pushed me to do something, and for me it's--I've always been about economic development, economic empowerment within our community, and I feel like it's the--it's really the way that we'll be able to make the changes that we want to see in this country, because you can't play in the political game if you don't have financial backing. So that's really how it came about.Zach: Those are facts.Melanie: Yeah. That's really how it came about. Zach: So you're absolutely right, and I think--you know, when I look at MINWO and I think about, like, just the importance of community, right? When you talk about, like, black and brown economic empowerment, that doesn't happen on an island, and it never has. Like, no group has ever built any type of economic power base or political structure on their own, right? So, you know, we're talking about effectively supporting women, specifically black women, in the workplace, and we've talked about that a few times, and really, you know, we really can't talk about it enough. You know, what has been your experience as a black woman in corporate America?Melanie: You know, it's a unicorn kind of situation sometimes, right? Like, sometimes you look around and you're like, "Man, I'm blessed to be the only person in this room from my community, like, to represent and to show them just how bad--- we can be, but also on the flip side it can be extremely stressful. I was working for a Fortune 10 company, one of the largest in the world, and it was just amazing to me how I can go so many places and still be the only black woman in the room. And so it really just--it drove me to want to 1. build community that much more, so I was a part of their African-American ERG at work, even led it for a little bit, but then also 2. making sure that the knowledge that I'm getting in those rooms, so at work and then also at B school, taking that knowledge and bringing it back to my community, 'cause if I'm the only person in that room, that means there are many, many others that's not getting that same type of wealth of knowledge. And so I took it upon me to make sure that I was doing my best to kind of package that information up and bring it back to my community. Zach: That's super dope. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, experiences, our experiences, they shape the things that we eventually do, right? So how have your experiences in corporate America shaped the culture that you're trying to build within MINWO?Melanie: Yeah. So for me, my thing with corporate America is I would go into the office and I didn't know whether I was battling the fact that I was black, the fact that I was female, or the fact that I was young and in a leadership position, and so it was constantly like, "I'm not sure which weapon I need to use today," and who I was trying to fight today, and so in building MINWO I'm really just focusing on--you know, all of the superficial stuff does not matter, right? Like, who are the people that are working with me? Who are the people that I'm working with? And how can we work most optimally together? And so I very much designed the company to not necessarily worry about working hours or not necessarily worry about how people work. As long as they're getting their stuff done, as long as they're, you know, working as a team, that's really all that matters to me, and then also just being able to pour into them as a mentor, as someone that barely knows what she's doing, but, you know, again, sharing the few gems that I do have, that's also been important to me, just realizing that we can all win. It doesn't necessarily have to be a zero-sum kind of game.Zach: [cha-ching sfx] No, you're absolutely right. [both laugh] You know, so you talked about mentorship. Can you talk a little bit about, you know--like, let's say you had three points. Like, what would your three points of advice be for women of color who are looking to get into entrepreneurship?Melanie: Ooh, that's--just three? [laughs] It's hard because the community that I work with is primarily black women, and just to see the way that we have so much--we give so much to others and we are very afraid of giving to ourselves. So I think the first point would be making sure that you don't forget to prioritize yourself, right? So, like, even as a business owner, your job is to, you know, work with your clients, work with your customers, making sure that you're providing a product or service for them that makes them happy, but also you need to take care of your own business, right? So do you have your business processes lined up? Do you have your business strategy outlined? Do you have all of the fundamental things that you need to be able to grow your business? So that's definitely number one. Number two is don't be afraid to support your fellow sister. I'm all about the retweeting and the sharing and the, you know, posting on my stories of everybody and anybody's business that I know about, because it doesn't take any food off of my plate, right? Like, just being able to support and promote the people that I know that are out here hustling as well. It's amazing to me how many people talk about supporting and how the community needs to support more, but they don't press that Share button or they don't press that Like button or they--you know? And so it's just, you know, work on building up that habit of sharing and leaving reviews and all that kind of stuff, 'cause those are the ways that you can support black-owned businesses for free. And then I think last is don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that is one of the things that, you know, for me especially, I had to learn to ask for help, right? So even--and that's as small or as big as building a team. If you have people that can support you in building your business, then you're able to run faster, then you're able to do more, but if you cannot even bring yourself to say, "Okay, I need help," and figure out the areas that you need help with and then be able to close your eyes and let go of it and let them actually help you, you just create a lot of stress and strain for yourself. And so I think those would be my three points.Zach: [Flex bomb sfx] Just a small Flex bomb. Nothing too crazy, you know what I'm saying? Just a little bit of something, you know what I'm saying? Just a little 10-piece for 'em, you know what I'm saying? Anyway, I definitely agree, [laughs] and I--you're spot on, especially when you talked about, like, just sharing, retweeting, you know what I'm saying, giving 5 stars. What's up? What's up, listeners? Melanie: Nudge nudge. [laughs]Zach: Nudge nudge, you know what I'm saying? Y'all see me. You hear me. If you're listening to this right now, you know you have to be giving me 5 stars. Okay. All right, back to this.Melanie: [laughs] And then [you come back?] Come back every time. [laughs]Zach: Right, right. Download numbers going up. 5 stars staying the same. What's going on? Come on. We've got a disconnect. [laughs] Nah, but you're absolutely right, and I just love the advice. So, you know, what I like about MINWO is the fact that y'all are building a true community of black and brown women entrepreneurs, right? And this type of thing requires trust, and so what strategies have you implemented to build and maintain that? 'Cause you talked about asking for help and supporting one another and kind of having your stuff in order. I mean, again, it takes a certain level of vulnerability. So what does it look like to create and maintain that?Melanie: Yeah, that's been a lot of what we've been learning over the last year. So the community you're referring to is Rialto. It's basically a platform for not only black business owners but black professional service providers to work together, connect, so that we're--you know, they're building each other's businesses essentially, and what I've found just in the last year of, you know, having a Slack team of these business owners is that it requires a lot of listening. Even though, you know, I know the things that I've learned in school and I'm like, "Hey, these are topics or things that you should know for your business," you can't necessarily start with, like, throwing scripture at them, right? You have to understand where they are, and you have to understand the walk that they've walked so far and meet them where they are, and for me that's been the most rewarding part. And what's also helped with that is that now what we do are monthly challenges. So this last month we just did a lean business model canvas challenge where everyone in the community worked together to work on their own individual lean business model canvasses, and then we had monthly meet-ups, which were virtual--which is a chance for anyone that wants to join, to get together, talk through, you know, their high points, their low points, what it was like for them to go through that experience, and then we also have a last little session where it's an open brainstorming session. So as a business owner, you don't often know too many other business owners, so to have that community of people that are living the same life that you are, that are making the same sacrifices that you are to bring about a vision, I think that's the part where you really start to build that trust in that community. It's from knowing that "Okay, they're not just talking for talking's sake," right? Like, "They're actually going through it too."Zach: No, that's real. And, you know, you're right. You can know everything in the world, but if people don't trust you, they don't really believe, you know, that you're really listening to them, they're just--it's gonna go in one ear and out the other. So look, where can folks learn more about MINWO?Melanie: Yeah. So we have a company website, minwo.co. That's M-I-N-W-O dot co, and that's where you can learn more about Rialto, the community that I mentioned, and then also Financial Formation, which is the personal finance consulting that I also do. Or you can go to my personal website, melanuschi.com, and that's where you can find more about personal finance consulting, business consulting, and anything else that you're interested in that's related to black wealth or black business.Zach: [coin sfx] And there it is, you know what I'm saying? [both laugh]Melanie: I'm loving these. [laughs]Zach: I'm saying, right? I'm trying to tell you. It's like Living Corporate--so you remember that Salt Bae meme? But we're, like, sprinkling, like, sound effects on the jaunt, you know what I'm saying? Like, we're really out here, you know? It's really fun. [both laugh] This has been a really great discussion, and I want to thank you for coming on the show. Before we go though, do you have any shout-outs? Anybody you're working with? Any other projects you want to mention?Melanie: Yeah. No, I really just want to shout-out the ladies that I've been working with on MINWO and Rialto for the last--I have business owners that are with me from literally Day 1, before we had a website, before we had any kind of anything. So Sydney [?] with Part and Parcel, Alexis Coates from LOTUS Creations, Teddy Renee [?] from TeddyRenee.com [?]. Those ladies have really supported me literally from Day 1, and so I just want to shout them out and say thank you.Zach: Man, I know they're thanking you too. [both laugh] We appreciate you again, and yeah, look, y'all, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Living DASH corporate dot com, you know what I'm saying? Or livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. You know what I'm saying? We're out here, okay? We just don't have, you know, livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia got the domain, you know? We've got all the domains. Australia has the main livingcorporate.com domain looking at us like [haha sfx], and I'm just like--I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do at this point, but, you know, one day, mark my words--y'all, join me in prayer. We're gonna be big enough. The brand will be brolic enough one day to get that domain. Okay, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, and that does it for us on the show. You've been listening to Melanie Akwule, founder of MINWO. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of speaking with Glenn Newman, VMware's Global Diversity & Inclusion Program Manager, in this episode focused around all things D&I. Glenn is a professional with over seven years of diversity and inclusion, campus recruitment, and talent management experience. In his current role at VMware, Glenn is working to take VMware's Power of Difference communities (PODs) to the next level by helping them achieve business and D&I program objectives. He shares with us what he's most excited about when it comes to his role and VMware in 2020 and so much more. Check out Ijeoma Oluo's book, So You Want to Talk About Race, on Amazon!Connect with Glenn on LinkedIn!Visit our website!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we do. I say a little thing, I go on with a joke, and then I say something about how we amplify the voices of black and brown people at work. Shout-out to all of our listeners, our first and last time listeners, you know what I'm saying? The millennials, the Gen X'ers. The--what's after the Gen X'ers? The Baby Boomers, and then also some of y'all Gen Y--them Gen Z's, rather. Excuse me. Gen Y is another word for millennials. You know what I'm talking about. If you're new here, you know what we do. We do this through--we amplify voices through authentic, accessible discussions with black and brown leaders. Today is no different as we have Glenn Newman with VMware. Hold up, now. Glenn Newman with VMware? I gotta go ahead and give just one quick air horn for that. [air horn sfx] Yes. We out here. We out here. We out here. Glenn is a D&I and talent professional with over seven years of diversity and inclusion, campus recruitment, and talent management experience. In his current role at VMware, Glenn is working to make VMware's power of difference communities - they call those pods, y'all - to take them to the next level by helping them achieve business and D&I program objectives. He is also focused on building inclusive manager and leadership capabilities as the company works to increase representation of underrepresented minorities and women by fostering a more inclusive culture, okay, where employees feel like they belong and they can bring their authentic selves to work every day. Okay, now listen, y'all, that was a whole bunch of, like, corporate talk to say Glenn is out here trying to make it better for black and brown folks at VMware to do what they do, okay? That's all that that was saying. But, you know, they gotta--in this D&I space, we have to kind of pretty things up with these, like, really flowery and colorful languages, but that's what he's doing, okay? Now, look, previously Glenn managed the overall recruitment of associates and consultants for BCG--okay, what's up, BCG? Hold up. ["ow" sfx] But this ain't a BCG podcast. I'm just saying. He also had a talent in D&I roles at Travelport, Accenture, Visa, Google--as a contractor--see, I like... you know what? Glenn is an honest dude, man. So he sent me over this copy, right, and on the copy it says "contract" in parentheses. Glenn, you ain't gotta be that honest.Glenn: [inaudible, both laugh]Zach: And he began his career as a communication and change management analyst at Towers Watson. Man. With all of that being said, Glenn, man, welcome to the show. How are you doing? [kids cheering sfx]Glenn: Thank you, thank you. I'm good, I'm good. How about yourself? Zach: Man, I'm doing really well. I'm excited to have you here. You know, we had to take some time, you know, but you back in town and we're having a conversation. I'm excited about it. So let's--you know, we did a little brief intro about you where I kind of gave, you know, your LinkedIn picture, but what else would you like to tell us about yourself?Glenn: I mean, I guess honestly you captured most of it in terms of, like, the bio and kind of what I'm working on at VMware. I mean, outside of that I'm an Ares, so I'm a hothead.Zach: I got you, I got you.Glenn: I like to ask the difficult questions, and I feel like anybody who has worked with me before would definitely tell you that I have a tendency to ask difficult questions, but also ask the questions that other people feel like they probably shouldn't ask or they don't want to ask, and I feel like I help keep people accountable, you know? So I think it's important to be that voice and to have that voice and to push the envelope a little bit. So hopefully I can disrupt for the betterment of others.Zach: Come on, now. Disrupt? I love that, man. So you said you're an Ares. So I'm a Virgo. Actually, you know, Beyonce and I have the same birthday. Glenn: I did not know that. I did know she was a Virgo though.Zach: I'm saying. So, you know, I'm out here as well. I'm trying to disrupt things as well. So okay, okay, okay, so you're a global diversity and inclusion program manager. What does that mean practically, and what prompted you to take this role at VMware?Glenn: Yeah. So I mean, quite frankly, I was looking for a role where I could have an impact, and I really--so a lot of my career has been in campus recruiting and diversity campus recruiting, right, and I really wanted to pivot from more of the acquisition side and the talent attraction into the, you know, development, the retention, promotion, engagement, et cetera, right, of underrepresented groups, and so I was looking for opportunities, and I was interviewing for a few, but quite frankly I wanted to stay in Atlanta, and the good thing about--one of the good things about the VMware role is it allowed me to stay in Atlanta, and I'm thankful for that. I'm always grateful, because I get to work in tech, I get to work at a pretty large, pretty well-known tech company, but I get to do it in Atlanta, and I don't think a lot of people can say that same thing. I think the other part of it is I was really looking to have a seat at the table, and I can honestly say that, you know, my manager who's a director and [my?] VP. Like, they want to know what I think, I mean, but they want to know what everybody else on the--what everybody on the team thinks, and so, like, that's important to me because I've been in places before where my voice didn't matter or it was overshadowed by people who were more senior or people in the business. I mean, you know, you've worked in personal services, so you definitely probably know what that's like. [Well?,] you've worked in personal services, so you know what that's like. And so I think, you know, just throughout my interview process it felt like the right fit for me for a number of reasons. And so yeah, that's what prompted me to join, and I think, you know, since joining, I feel like, you konw, my expectations have been managed well, but I think I have been set up for success and I'm actually doing the work that we talked about doing in the interview, which is good.Zach: That is good, man, 'cause, you know, sometimes it's like you get a job and you think--especially in these D&I roles, right? And I've had these conversations, like, with other folks on the podcast, right? We've talked to Jennifer Brown and we've talked to Amy Waninger. We've talked to other people, right? We've talked to even DeRay Mckesson, and we talk about how, like, these D&I spaces are--they're slowly becoming decolonized, but, like, there's still a lot of, like, work to do to, like, really get stronger representation in these spaces, right? And you end up thinking--you know, you're over here like, "Oh, snap, I got this job, and they're about to, you know, really put me at the seat of the table and give me a voice," and you turn around and you're talking about ["haha" sfx] Like, not. Joke's on you, you know what I'm saying? You don't even have no seat.Glenn: It's so [?] though, and I think, like, just given my personality, and--I mean, I attribute this to professional serv--like, I grew up in professional services, right? Like, from Towers Watson, from working at Accenture for over two years, from the BCG. I mean, those organizations move quickly, right, and they're all about, like, high-caliber work, high-quality work, quick turnarounds, and so I think coming to VMware and industry in general--industry is a bit slower, right? And so I think I have to manage my expectations around what I can get done, what we can done, what the business is ready for, and so I think I'm definitely learning those lessons, you know? And I'm still working to manage my own expectations. [laughs]Zach: That's real. No, no, no. That's real, and it's crazy--it's crazy, man, 'cause sometimes, like I said, it just takes time. I think there's a lot of--and I've had this conversation multiple times too, like, I think it's easy if you don't have, like, black and brown people, like, in these roles, like, it's easy to forget, like, the emotional labor that it takes to do this type of work, right? Like, it's not just like--Glenn: [?]Zach: Right? It's human. Like, you're dealing with human beings, and you're dealing with human beings that look like you, have similar stories to you, that you're really trying to impact, so I definitely get that, and managing expectations is always important. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about this. You know, D&I continues to be, like, an area where organizations are focused on, especially in tech, so what do you believe, right, has been the motivation for VMware to continue to expand their D&I office? Because, like, I feel as if--I don't know. Like, you know, we've had some research--we have whitepapers, you know, on our website, like--oh, by the way. Hey, y'all. Check us out, y'all. We got whitepapers. Like, don't play with us. [straight up sfx] Okay? We got whitepapers. [both laugh] And in our research, everybody knows that a common statistic is that $8 billion a year is being spent, and I would argue wasted, in D&I today and that we're not really seeing tangible results. And especially as you think about, like the economy as it stands today. Like, why do you think, in this point in time, VMware is still expanding this space?Glenn: Well, I feel like a lot of the times we hear about, like, "It's the right thing to do" and "We're doing it for the business," right? So I hear that a lot, and not--and not specifically at VMware, but just in general, and I say that to say I think those are the reasons we're doing it, right? Like, we're doing it because we genuinely believe, right, across the company, especially from a leadership perspective, that it's important and that specifically, like, we call our pods that I mentioned earlier, the power of difference communities--like, we believe the power of human difference allows us to be better, to develop better products, to build better products, to better serve customers, to be better partners, right? And then to innovate. So I think there's definitely a business reason behind it, but then I also genuinely feel like there are leaders who think it's the right thing to do. And I think it's interesting because--you know, like, there's the winning the hearts and minds of change, right? So I think you have to [hit?] people with the pathos for the people who, you know, they relate to that, but then you have to have, you know, the practicality in the business perspective for others as well. [?] The data had showed that people--like, once they connect emotionally to diversity and inclusion, they're better able to kind of buy into it as opposed to just connecting to the business. So I think we definitely we have some more of that, work to do, to continue to pull at people's heartstrings, but then also make it real for them so that they genuinely buy in ,and not just because it's the right thing to do from a business perspective but it's the right thing to do from a human perspective.Zach: That's a really good point, and I do think it's both and, right? I think organizations often fail when they try to do one or the other, because, like, the reality is some folks are just not gonna care, right? But then you got other folks who are like, "Okay, I'ma care as much as it benefits my bottom line, so if you can point to me, like, how this can benefit my bottom line, then I'm all for it," right? I think the challenge--the challenge that I think, something that has yet to be quantified, is, like, the amount of time organizations waste in, like, really calculating turnover. So, like, we know the turnover data is bad, like, in tech. But, like, those numbers have yet to really be fully published. Like, I don't think any one organization has really, like, really, really gone into, like, the comparative analytics on their turnover data, but, like, I think if really one was to look at those numbers alone, they'd be like, "Ayo, we gotta do a better job, 'cause, like, this is crazy." I mean, it's just over here like [chaching sfx] But, like, opposite. Like, in reverse, you know what I'm saying? Like, it would be like that sound, but, you know. [both laugh]Glenn: Like a whomp-whomp-whomp. [both laugh]Zach: Right? You know what I mean. And then over time, you know, organizations are so, like, monolithic. They're so white. They're so straight. They're so male. You know, I'm looking on my job board--I'm looking at the job board, I might see a job--let's just say, like, I'm a person of color, I'm on the job board--because I know that this place isn't inclusive--I'm looking at that job like ["i don't know who this man is" Keke sfx]. [Glenn laughs] You know, sorry to this man. I don't even recognize--man, listen, Glenn, I've been so excited to use this soundboard, man. I've got some new [?]--Glenn: I love that. Oh, my gosh. If you knew how many times I say that, like, in a week. "I'm sorry. I don't want to sound foolish."Zach: "I don't want to sound ridiculous. I do not know who this is." And so let me pivot, right? So you talked about the power of difference and these communities. I really want to--now, look, I'm not trying to have you spill any secret sauce out, you know what I'm saying, but I want to learn more about the strategy of these power of difference [communities] and really--frankly, I want to talk more about this offline too. Like, what's the strategy with these pods? Like, what are y'all trying to achieve? What is this looking like? Like, how did this come about, and what--practically speaking, like, how does it fit into y'all's D&I strategy?Glenn: Yeah. I mean, like, honestly [in our?] D&I strategy overall there are three kind of key pieces. There's the representation piece, where we talk a lot about increasing representation and focusing specifically on underrepresented minorities and women, and what I often tell people is just because we're--just because we're saying we're focusing on does not mean--it doesn't mean that we aren't also working to increase representation of other underrepresented groups, and I say that because I really think it's important for people to know that we're doing both. So it's a yes and, and again, these things are not mutually exclusive. The other part of it is building a culture of inclusion, right? So focusing on culture and what that really means, and then the third piece is thought leadership. So how are we tapping into podcasts like this to let people know that "Okay, VMware is an inclusive place to work," and we're working to make it an even more inclusive place to work, right? And then how are we sharing what we're doing and the impact of the diversity and the inclusion that is having on the business? So I say all of that to say our pods, the power of difference communities, are really our ERGs, right? So employee resource groups or business resource groups, and I think we are at a place where we are really trying to take those ERGs, known as pods, to be more BRGs, right? So how are they [?] business? Meaning how are the programs and the initiatives and the sponsorships and things like that contributing to the business? Whether that be in terms of professional development, of underrepresented groups, so that they develop and have talent moves and move into different roles and are contributing more to the business, whether that means we are attending various recruiting conferences and thinking about building pipelines in STEM and in tech of underrepresented groups, whether that be, you know, high school, college, what have you, you know, experienced professionals, or is that we're partnering with other non-profits in the space to, like, you know, talk about what we're doing and help other companies and partner with other companies? And then--or, you know, like, a lot of companies, especially companies who are B to C, right? So we think about, like, big consumer goods or just any product that sells products directly to consumers, they think a lot about and have a lot of conversations about "How do our products reflect our consumers?" Right? So if you think about some of the large consumer goods or CPGs or those companies, they're really thinking about those things, and so I think for us it's "How are we making sure that we're getting the opinions of our employees who are underrepresented or in underrepresented groups, and how are we leveraging that thought leadership, that knowledge, that know-how, to further develop relationships with our customers to build better products to innovate, right? And so I think ideally we want to get our pods to a place where we're doing more of those things.Zach: That's a really exciting vision, right? Like, so you're thinking--so basically these pods, I mean, they're almost like little--I mean, they're genuinely--if effectively strategized around and activated effectively--are real difference makers, and you have them basically stratified across the business. That's pretty exciting, man.Glenn: Right, right, right. Yeah, and I think--you know, I think it's easier for people in general to make that connection when you're walking into, like, a grocery store and you're picking up a product on a shelf and thinking, "How are people who look like me or are like me thinking about buying this product or consuming this product?" And so for us it's different because, again, we're B to B, and we have to think about it differently. So I do think it's--I do think it's ambitious, but I think it can be done, especially when you think about relationships and building relationships and, then again, innovating.Zach: 100%. Okay, so what are you most excited about when it comes to your role and VMware in 2020?Glenn: That's a good question. I think what I'm really most interested in is--so quite frankly we have--and this is public knowledge--so we have closed the acquisition of Carbon Black, and we are working to close the acquisition of Pivotal, so as a result of that our diversity and inclusion team is gonna be growing, and so I think what I'm--what I'm looking forward to is the growth of our team, which means 1. we can do more, and I think also I'm looking forward to the opportunity to partner more with the business and be more of a diversity business partner. So a lot of tech companies have started developing or creating these diversity business partner roles that sit in the business and/or [audio cut] plans that they then work with the business to execute those plans, right? So I think you can think about it from, like--there's a D&I engagement piece, which is around the pods, and then there's, like, the education piece around unconscious bias and how we--how are we educating our managers, our leaders, our employees, around inclusion and topics like privilege and microaggressions and things like that, right? And then there's sitting in the business and working with business leaders and managers to develop plans to actually move the needle, right, in a different way than on the--you know, the education and the engagement, that side. So I think that's what I'm looking for, to have an opportunity to really partner more closely with the business in 2020 as a result of our team growing.Zach: My goodness gracious. I gotta give you a Flex bomb for all that though. That sounds incredible. [Flex bomb sfx] That sounds awesome, yeah. So I was trying to play the "what it do, baby" before, but it was just too loud, so I'm gonna go ahead and do it right now based off of the fact that what you just said is incredible. [Kawhi "what it do baby" sfx] And shout-out to your acquisition as well. [both laugh]Glenn: Right.Zach: Okay, okay, okay. So, you know, you're talking about what you've been doing at VMware, you're talking about some of the strategic visioning around the pods. Again, it does sound really ambitious, but, like, I don't think--when I say ambitious... sometimes people say ambitious and they're really just hating, right? It's kind of like, "It sounds a bit ambitious, don't you think?" [both laugh] But I mean it's ambitious like, "Wow, this is very positive." Like, this is incredible, and I'm really excited for what y'all are trying to drive. This is my question though. What advice would you have for organizations really at the beginning of their D&I journeys, right? Like, maybe they don't even have ERGs or BRGs. And then what have been the lessons learned for you? That's kind of, like, the B part to that question.Glenn: Yeah. So I think, like, advice, I think for companies who are just starting, I don't know, I think it's like--I don't know. I always go back to, like, the change management, right, part of it, right? So, like, thinking about how are you really pulling in leaders, how are you having it--how are you having your efforts so that they are leader-led, right, and it really sits in the business and leaders are held accountable for. So I think that accountability is super important. And not just leaders, right? So it's like--if VPs and above are the only people who are held accountable, then what happens to other people who are directors, [?], et cetera, who lead teams and [audio cut] they're not held accountable? So I think accountability is big, and I think for companies who are just starting out in general, like, just starting out the company by having an inclusive culture and kind of ingraining that into people and educating people from the time that they join the company, but even before they join the company, like, through the onboarding and through the talent acquisition piece, right? So I think that's the advice I would have, and then really just kind of walk the talk, right? Because I'm one of those people--I really, really value honesty, and I think I'm really good at sensing BS, right? A lot of us are, and I think we know [someone, audio cut] is being honest with us and when they're just kind of, like, giving us the "Well, this is what we're working on," and it's like, "Mm, that's not really what you're working on. Just be honest with me," right? If you have room to grow, say, you know, "These are the two things we're doing. However, we need to be doing these five, and we're working on it," right? Like, I'd rather somebody tell me that than to say, "Oh, well, we have these amazing initiatives," and it's like "Mm, do you really have those initiatives or are you just talking about it and is it just lip service?" So that's my advice. And I think--in terms of, like, lessons learned for me personally, we talk a lot about, like, people of color and underrepresented minorities and black and brown people, right, in corporate America, but, like, I'm not--yes, I'm a black man at VMware, but I'm not just a black man. Like, I'm a gay black man at VMware who is a part of a global team that is not just thinking about bringing in and developing and retaining and promoting more black and brown people, but we're thinking about underrepresented groups more broadly and thinking about making VMware a place where everyone can come and thrive and, I like to say, be safe, seen and connected, or feel safe, seen and connected, right? So I say that to say that a lot of the things that I've learned personally [audio cuts]--I advocate for people who don't look like me or who don't--or who I don't identify with from a, you know, race, ethnic background or other parts of my identity, right? And it's just really interesting because I think by being vulnerable and by being empathetic, I am really able to do that. But it's just interesting how, you know, I can be on a call with people who have a completely different identity than me, but I'm advocating for them. And so I'll give you a real example. A lot of people don't know about the model minority myth, right? So I've read this book by Ijeoma Olu called "So You Want to Talk About Race." I love the book. It's amazing. I would completely, like, totally recommend it. And she has a chapter where she talks about the [model minority myth,] and I think it's important because a lot of people--what the model minority myth is, and, you know, I'm not, like, speaking verbatim here, but it's really around the fact that people think about those who are Asian-American or Asian as the model minority, and they have all of these stereotypes about Asians to include--like, they're super smart. They're really--like, you know, they want to be in, like, STEM. They're really good at math. Like, those kinds of things. A lot of people might think they have a lot of money, but that's not the case. Like, when you look at the data, especially of some Asian-American or Asian cultures, that's just not the case. Like, the degrees or the degree attainment from some of the Asian cultures, those numbers are significantly less than Hispanic/Latinx or African-American and black cultures and black identities, right? So I think that's one of those things, by me just kind of educating myself, reading that book, and then I was on a call, and I literally had to stop someone and say, "Well, you know, actually, the model minority, this is what it is, this is why it exists, and this is why we need an Asian at VMware's power of difference community." It's important because there are also people in this community who aren't rich, who aren't, you know, science, math, STEM, et cetera, majors, and who didn't come from a home where both of their parents were doctors, lawyers, you know, computer scientists, et cetera, and that's what a lot of [audio cuts]--for me and having the opportunity to really advocate for people who aren't like me.Zach: Man, I love that, and you're 100% right. So I'm just gonna start at the top of what you said. So you were talking about the fact that you're not just one thing, right, like, you're not just one identity, and I think a lot of times, like, we really do fail to be, like, intersectional in our D&I work, and, I mean, we just had Lionel Lee, who is a diversity leader over at the Zillow Group, and we were talking about the fact that, like, when you look at a lot of work today in these D&I spaces, they're mostly, like, focused on gender. So, like, even the fact that, like, we're talking about race and gender to me is a win, because a lot of times we'll say things like--we'll kind of dismiss race and then say things like "diversity of thought" or just other--like, just generalized things, but I think you're absolutely right, especially when it comes to the LGBTQ space, because--Glenn: Exactly.Zach: This is what I've learned. So I'm a cishet black dude, right? And as I've been having conversations--and this was, like, earlier, like, last season. We were talking to Janet Pope, who is the diversity and inclusion leader over at Capgemini, and we were talking about how, like, it's important to make sure that you're being intersectional with the LGBTQ spaces, because if you're not, those spaces can end up being, like, largely white, and, like, you end up missing out on a lot of different black and brown experiences within that space.Glenn: You're so right. I mean, like, think about--again, like, going back to a gay black man who works in tech, like, there's not a lot of us, right? Especially when you think about the LGBTQ community in general. So I was at the Pride parade in Atlanta for the first time, and, I mean, it was just interesting for me to, like, think about being the only in a place where there are a lot of people like me, right? So whether there were LGBTQ or allies or what have you, I was still the only black man there, right? Like, and so--and when I say there, I mean specifically with the company who came out to the parade. Like, I'm sure there are others there. There may or may not be, so I don't want to falsely assume, but it was just interesting again, like, looking around and being like, "Okay, Glenn, you're still the only in this group of people who are like you because of intersectionality," right? And I think lately there has been a lot of conversation around intersectionality in terms of, you know, you looking at women of color, specifically black women, and looking at Asian women, for example, and then also again, from an LGBTQ perspective, there has been a ton of conversation lately around the importance of intersectionality, and I was telling the team--because last week, like, one of the reasons we had to postpone this was because I was at Out and Equal, which is an LGBTQ workplace summit. It's, like, a huge--it was amazing. I loved it, and I think there was this undercurrent of people getting on stage and really being advocates and allies and talking about how trans women of color are being murdered and no one is doing anything about it. I don't think enough people are having those conversations. So it will be interesting to see the shift in how people are having more conversations, but then also taking action over the next few years.Zach: Man, this has just been a super dope conversation, man. I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to join us. Before we let you go, any shout-outs? Parting words?Glenn: [laughs] Shout-outs and parting words? Hm. I don't know. Like, honestly, in all seriousness, I would encourage people to read that book - "So You Want To Talk About Race" by Ijeoma Oluo. Like, I think everybody should read it, no matter how you identify, because, like, again, going back to, like, a lesson learned, like, I literally--I mean, of course I knew I had privilege. Like, I'm able-bodied. I'm educated. I went to a really good school. Like, I've had the opportunity to go to really great schools, you know, even in middle and high school, and so I reached out to one of my friends and I was like, "Girl, we got privilege," and, you know, we were having a conversation about it, right? So, like, even though you might be an underrepresented minority or a member of an underrepresented group, I think just realizing those things and being self-aware are helpful. So I would encourage people to read that book and just start to have conversations with people who are not like you to increase your understanding.Zach: Y'all... my goodness, y'all. I just--you know what, man? I gotta--let me see here. Let's see here. What are we gonna do, man? We gotta--I just gotta give a [raucous applause sfx] I gotta thank you, man. I just gotta let you know, bro, 'cause I'ma tell you the truth, man. Sometimes, you know, I have some of these conversations with some of these D&I leaders, and they--you know, they really--and not on Living Corporate though. I make moves, so I talk to people, right? Let me tell you, they'll be talking to me, and in the back of my mind I'm over here like [fraud sfx, Glenn laughs]--it's a fraud. Glenn: Yeah.Zach: But I appreciate you being authentic [and] taking the time to, like, really share a bit, right? Not just about VMware, but about yourself. So yeah, man, so blessings to you, and that does it for us, y'all, on Living Corporate, you know? You know what we do, man. We post this stuff, like, three times a week. We've got these regular interviews, then we've got Tristan's Tips, and then we've got The Link Up with Latesha, all really to amplify black and brown voices at work. Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and then, you know, just Google us, you know what I'm saying? We out here, right? Like, we--you know, Glenn, like, we're really making moves, man. We got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, you know? Livingcorporate... what else? We've got pretty much all of the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Now, livingcorporate.com is owned by, like, Australia, right? So I don't know. I don't know what's going on with that one, but we also have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. So just check us out. We out here. Let's see here. What else? Housekeeping, housekeeping. Shout-out to Ellen, who was on mute this entire time, but Ellen was here to make sure that I didn't get Glenn or VMware sued, so shout-out to you, Ellen, and yeah. This has been Zach. You've been listening to Glenn Newman, mover, shaker, D&I leader at VMware. 'Til next time, y'all. Peace.

Zach has the pleasure of chatting with Brittani Hunter, founder and CEO of The Mogul Millennial, and they discuss how to go about effectively using your voice at work. They also talk about The Mogul Millennial platform in general, what she's looking forward to in the future, and what initially led her to its creation. Connect with Brittani on Twitter and Instagram!Check out The Mogul Millennial website and follow them on Twitter and Instagram!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and again, look, y'all know what we do. We have incredible guests all of the time. Now, this guest is pretty interesting, because, you know, as I've been--as we. Shout-out to Ade, shout-out to Sheneisha, shout-out to Tiffany, shout-out to Tara, shout-out to Taylor, shout-out to Tristan, you know what I'm saying? These are all sounding like random names, but these are all people that actually I work with on Living Corporate. Shout-out to Amy, okay? I see you. We have all--as we continue to really build out Living Corporate, folks, there's one name that continues to come up. Like, "Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person? Have you talked to this person?" And I'm like, "Yes, I have. Yes, we've made a connection. Yes, we still need to interview. Yes, but I do know who that is," and it is this individual, and this person is a LinkedIn Top Voice. They're an entrepreneur. They're a writer. They're an educator. They're a public speaker. They're a mover. They're a shaker, you know what I'm saying? They're a snatcher of edges, you know what I'm saying? They out here is my point, and this person is Brittani Hunter. Brittani, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Brittani: I'm doing really good. Thanks for having me.Zach: No, no, no. Thank you for actually being on the show. In fact, let me go ahead and just--just a very modest, you know what I'm saying, cheer, just to welcome you, you know what I'm saying? [cheers sfx] Nothing too crazy. Just something to kind of get us started. For those of us who don't know you--I know I kind of gave a little bit, but would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Brittani: Yeah. So like you mentioned earlier, I'm an entrepreneur and also a LinkedIn Top Voice. I am also a proud HBCU grad, so if you went to PVAMU, shout-out to you. I am based here in Texas, Dallas to be exact, and I've been in the entrepreneur space for about 3.5 years, but full-time since January of this year. So January of 2019.Zach: Okay, now, wait, you're not gonna shout-out your HBCU?Brittani: I did. You didn't hear me? Prairie View A&M University. So PVAMU. ["ow" sfx]Brittani: [laughs] Yeah. It's the best HBCU in my opinion, so yeah, shout-out to you if you are a PV grad as well. Zach: Shout-out to the HBCUs. It's so funny, 'cause, you know, no one ever goes, "Shout-out to the PWIs!" But, you know, it's cool. Shout-out to education, and definitely shout-out to HBCUs. My dad went to Jackson State, and my mom [was Miss?] Tougaloo back in the day, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I came from good stock is what I'm trying to say. [jokingly] You're not the only person out here flexing in your complexion, that's all. Okay, so look, today we're talking about using your voice effectively. You talked about being a LinkedIn Top Voice. First of all, what does it mean to be a LinkedIn Top Voice?Brittani: So every year, LinkedIn, they'll select people that currently use the LinkedIn platform--hence the name LinkedIn Top Voice--and what it is is people that they recognize that are making an impact through the platform, and so an impact on the platform through their content. So yeah, to become a LinkedIn Top Voice essentially means that you're recognized as someone who has influence and a heavy impact on the users, on the thousands and millions of users that are on LinkedIn.Zach: Let's talk about you being selected. Like, what did that process look like?Brittani: It was actually a surprise. So I was literally at my old 9-to-5, um, not doing work, checking my personal email on my phone, and I saw that I had an email from one of the editors. And so LinkedIn has several editors that specifically focus on different subjects, and so the editor reached out and was pretty much saying that they love all of my content, that they, you know, on the back end they've been seeing how much engagement and all the high impressions that my content has been getting, whether that was my blog content--'cause, you know, LinkedIn has the publishing platform that you can publish blogs on. So whether it was that or just my normal, you know, short-form or long-form posts, and they were wanting to see if I was interested in being a part of their LinkedIn Top Voice selection. And so it was pretty much--that was really it. They required for me to write a post, so once they released the list of all of the LinkedIn Top Voices in the different categories--and by the way, I was selected in the category for Management and Culture. So yeah, once they released the article with everybody that was selected, they also released a series of articles from each LinkedIn Top Voice that was selected.Zach: That's really, really cool. You know, what's really interesting about what you shared is that, you know, you said you weren't even expecting it. You were just doing what you were doing, and then it just happened, right?Brittani: Yeah. A lot of people think that there is, like, some type of formal application or if you, like, reach out to someone that works at LinkedIn that you can get it, but it doesn't work like that. If you just keep doing what you're doing and just be focused on--and you're just, like, focused on actually putting out great content, then you'll be noticed, and if you're lucky they'll select you as a Top Voice.Zach: You know what? I just--I just think it's really incredible, and like I said from the top, everybody that I talk to, as I've been talking about Living Corporate, they're like, "You know, you really need to talk to--have you talked to anybody from The Mogul Millennial?" And I'm like... but it's just been, like, an ongoing conversation, and, you know, since then, and really frankly to this day, I'm just really excited that we were able to make this connection, you know what I mean? [to this day sfx]Brittani: Yeah. [laughs] I love the soundbites. I love it, I love it. Zach: No, I appreciate. So look, on your platform you share real talk, right? So the latest piece that I personally read was about black leadership at Fortune 500 companies being at its lowest, yet black celebrity partnerships are booming--and it's so interesting because, at the time of this recording, of this podcast, you know, Jay-Z just announced that partnership that he has with the NFL for the social justice movement thing. Anyway, in it you assert that while exploring the direct and subtle implications of that fact, right? So basically you go into it, right? A lot of your pieces do this, where you have, like, this fairly, like, strong initial statement, and then you really go into the nuances and the implications of whatever you stated, right? As black creatives who are focused on content centered around business, I think there's a line we have to decide when we're going to, like, not cross, right? Like, and show how honest or raw that we're being. What has that journey looked like for you specifically and how you've balanced, like, discomforting truths with managing a brand that extends far beyond your family and close friends?Brittani: Yeah. So I think, for me, what I just try to, like, you know, work at towards every day is just, like, living my truth. When you're not living your truth, you know, you're the one that's mostly impacted, and so whether that was--you know, whether that's me right now as an entrepreneur or me back when I was working the traditional 9-to-5 in the workplace, I'm not going to downplay, you know, what I think or try to sugarcoat, like, my thoughts and my feelings because of someone else, and so I think it's important that when we speak on our truths it also empowers other people to do the same. So specifically through Mogul Millennial, I like to have those types of conversations and so that way, you know, the issue at hand isn't ignored or it's not--you know, it's not watered down.Zach: And so how do you feel like that philosophy could be applied to, like, black and brown professionals in their day-to-day jobs and how they use their voice?Brittani: I think, you know--it's funny. So it makes me think about--like, a really quick story. When I was working at one of my last 9-to-5s, it was a predominantly white workplace, and one of my coworkers who was black, she would just, like, literally turn her personality all the way off, even from, like, the foods that she ate.Zach: Wait. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Whoa, whoa, whoa. [record scratch sfx] What you mean the food that she ate?Brittani: Yeah! So she wouldn't eat things like chicken in the office or really be, like, really careful on the types of fruit that she would eat.Zach: The types of--oh, so she wouldn't eat, like, a banana is what you're trying to say?Brittani: That, watermelon. You know, like, the traditional, like, things--[haha sfx, both laugh] Yeah, like, you think about, like, black people, and it was weird. So we would have, like, potlucks at work, and if people brought chicken she would say that she was allergic to chicken, but she loved chicken.Zach: She would say that she was allergic to chicken?Brittani: Yeah. It was like, "Girl, why are you doing this? Just be yourself and people will like you for it," you know?Zach: Can we have, like, a real conversation about this though? Okay, so I was talking to my--my wife and I were talking about this. We talk about this often, and Dave Chappelle did a whole stand-up skit about it, but you know how, like, just racist--anti-black racism is so lazy. So it's like, you really think that chicken and watermelon are, like, exclusive to black people? Do you know delicious watermelon is? Do you know how delicious chicken--like, do you know how many cultures enjoy chicken? We all love chicken. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. So she would not eat watermelon. She would not eat bananas. Bananas are--you know, they're a lot of sugar, so if you're watching your weight and you're trying to, you know, kind of cut down on your calories, I can understand--Brittani: Yeah, the carbs and everything. Yeah, I get it, but, you know, from that to, you know, purposely not listening to music that she wanted to in her own personal office.Zach: She had a personal office?Brittani: Yeah. It was just crazy. Like, do what you want to do. Like, be yourself. And so she would say all of the time, like, "Well, Brittani, you're gonna listen to this type of music in the office?" Yes. This is my office. You know, I've earned my role. I'm just as qualified as the next person, and I'm not gonna feel uncomfortable at work and not do things that are true to myself, but the person next to me is, just because we're two different skin colors, come from two different backgrounds, and, you know, upbringings. You know, it doesn't mean that they can do something that I can't. And so one of the things that I learned is that, you know, when you're true to yourself, people, they like the real you. They want to know the real you. You don't have to whiten it to be accepted. So yeah, I highly encourage people in the workplace to not, like, you know, whiten or change who they are just to quote-unquote "fit in," because, you know, people can recognize bull**** and they know that it's not the real you anyway.Zach: That's right. Now, look, this is a clean podcast, but, you know, I respect you, you know what I'm saying?Brittani: Oh, I'm sorry.Zach: No, no, that's okay, but when you said it I was like--[Metal Gear Solid surprised sfx]--you know what I'm saying? Like, "Okay, wait." But no, no, you're absolutely right, people can recognize it, and you just want to be yourself, you know? It's interesting. We had a conversation on Season 1. It was, like, our first episode, with Fenorris Pearson, who was--he was, like, an executive with Motorola and Dell, and he talked about the fact that he went on this plane ride, right, with, like, this very senior white executive, and he said, "Look, we can tell when y'all are putting on airs, and, like, it's fake." Like, "We hate that. It's annoying. We can see right through it. It's awkward. It's clearly not authentic," right? Now, I don't want to shame anybody, because we've been classically--we've been conditioned to put on coverings and participate in respectability politics as a means of survival, so I'm not shaming anybody for doing those things, but at the same time--not but, and we also live in a time when, look, you have a voice. Use it and be yourself, right? Like, if you want to listen to Rick Ross, you know what I'm saying, do that. You want to smoke a Black and Mild on your smoke break? Go ahead and do that. Like, nobody's gonna stop you. Like, it's okay. It's all right. Maybe not a Black and Mild. [both laugh] I'm trying to think of the last time I've seen somebody smoke a Black and Mild, like, in a work setting.Brittani: Oh, God. I don't think I've ever seen that. That's funny.Zach: Like a 'rillo. That'd be like, "Ooh, what's going on?" [both laugh] No, no, no, but anyway, let's talk a little bit about Mogul Millennial, right? You've talked about the fact it's been going on for three years. What have you been most proud of so far, and what are you looking forward to most in the next, like, six to twelve months?Brittani: You know, when I think about, like, everything that I've experienced in these three years, the thing that I am mostly proud of was getting out of my [?] and realizing that I literally cannot do everything. At my last job, I was--I've always been in management roles, so I'm used to being, like, head over something, you know?Zach: Hold on a second. So wait, wait, wait. You said you've always been in management roles?Brittani: Yeah.["ow" sfx]Zach: Okay, I got you. Keep going. Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so when I started, you know, The Mogul Millennial, it was, you know, just, like, a side project in the beginning since I couldn't dedicate all of my time and resources to it, but yeah, once I decided that I was gonna go full-time with it, I knew that, "Okay, well, Brittani, you can't, like, grow this company. You can't, like, really be as profitable as you want to be, and you're doing everything." So you're doing all of the social media. You're writing all of the blog posts. You're the one trying to pitch yourself and your company to different brands and partners, so you can't do it all, or you can but it's not gonna be really worth anything, or it won't be as good as it could be and as impactful as it could be. And so I really didn't want to at the beginning, I decided to put out a post asking for help, and once I did that, like, our traction increased. I felt like the content got better because we just had, you know, more diverse opinions and thoughts from--like, black millennials literally all over the world were contributing, and so I think that's what I've been most proud of, you know, recognizing that I don't know everything, and that's fine, 'cause now I have people that help me out day-to-day that are so much more better at certain things and more knowledgeable on certain topics, and I've learned a lot as well from those people.[straight up sfx]Zach: No, I feel you. Like, it's tough when, you know, you're at a point, you're grinding, and you feel like you're doing everything, right, like, to the point you're just at your wit's end. You're looking at 'em like ["what more do you want from me?" sfx] You know? It's just like, "I can't." Like, "I have to reach out." That's really important. So, you know, you not only used your voice to create your platform, but you used your voice to extend and expand your platform, 'cause you had to actually use your voice to ask for help.Brittani: Mm-hmm, absolutely. So right now--it was crazy, 'cause when I put out the first post--so since I'm... I have the highest, like, influence on LinkedIn, so, you know, I went to what I know I'm good in. So I put a post on LinkedIn, and literally within the first, like, two weeks, we had over 150 people who were like, "I want to write!" And it was so overwhelming. So between--and remember, I was still working at my 9-to-5. So in-between meetings, like, literally as I was going to, like, meetings, either, like on-site at my job or off-site, or during my lunch break, anything--on the way to the restroom, I was having interviews with these people. 'Cause some people, you know, I had to--I wanted to be accommodating as well, 'cause I wanted to help, and so yeah, it's been good. It's been really good.Zach: So what does it look like, right, to continue and build out this platform, and--actually, let me take a step back. What did it look like when you actually left your full-time job? Like, what did that conversation look like?Brittani: So I had actually planned to leave and was really strategic. So I--I think you and I had talked before and I mentioned that I lived in Houston for a short period of time.Zach: For a little bit of time, yeah.Brittani: Yeah. So originally I'm from Dallas, and I went to school at PV, which is by Houston. Went to PV, came back to Dallas, and was working at a university that's, like, north of Dallas in a small--well, not small... well, yeah, small, but it's [?]. So I was working there at UT Dallas and I remember being approached by my boss's boss--well, no, my boss's boss's boss. So, like, three people above me, to work at the property at the University of Houston, and I denied them, like, three or four times, because the pay wasn't right and I was like, "No, you're not gonna pay me [?]," and I have to move and uproot my life, and so eventually we negotiated back and forth. I got the rate that I wanted plus more, and we--and so yeah, I specifically took that role because I knew that I wanted to quit within a year so that way I could work on Mogul Millennial full-time, 'cause we were doing really well with the site, and so--so yeah, I literally only took the promotion--well, it was like a lateral promotion, so it was the same role but different duties. Zach: But you had got that [cha-ching sfx].Brittani: Exactly, exactly. Making extra money, so I took it knowing that, "Okay, well, I can save money even faster and, you know, quit and be way more financially comfortable."Zach: I got you. So you were, like, kind of scheming on the low, but, like, you know, for yourself though.Brittani: Yeah. I mean, they do it all of the time with us, with [?]. So I had no regrets, no shame. [laughs]Zach: Oh, no, no. Hey, I'm not shaming you, I'm just chuckling 'cause, you know, you negotiated that deal and you're in the background, you know, you're shaking his hand and you're talking about ["hehehe" sfx, both laugh]Brittani: Yep. So no, like, I literally stayed, like, long enough as well. So the year was special because, you know, within a year you can really do--if you're dedicated and persistent you can do some really good damage--well, not damage, but some good improvement. Zach: No, you said what you said. It's okay. [both laugh]Brittani: And then also with the relocation fee, you know, that's why it's important that you read everything. I read in the contract for the relocation [?] I was given that you need to stay for a year. So yeah, I left within a year, and then--so it really just looked like, you know, within that time period for me working at the other location in Houston, was to just save and grow my team, and then also focus on, like, upcoming products and plan out different projects that we're gonna actually be releasing this year, so I'm really excited about that, but it was a lot of hard work. So at my last company I was literally working, like, sometimes, like, 60, 70 hours a week, 'cause I worked in a very busy industry, but at the same time, you know, having a team was really helpful, and then I just worked crazy hours on the weekends, on my lunch breaks, before work, things like that.Zach: That's a blessing. It's a blessing to find folks who are, you know, engaged and willing to support, right? You know, I think we probably need to have you back just around, like, the principles of building a team and getting started, because I think a lot of times, and I'll say this for podcasting, podcasting is notorious for people, like, starting off really big with a splash and then being done after, like, 2.5 months, because the load of, like, getting content, researching, producing, it can get, like, tiring over time, so, like, a lot of podcasts don't even last a year, you know what I'm saying? Let alone--Brittani: It's a full-time job.Zach: It's a full-time job, and so, you know, it's tough. So that's incredible. I'm so excited. I'm so thankful that you've been able to be on this, on our platform. Now, look, again, Brittani, you're the first LinkedIn Top Voice that we've had on Living Corporate. How does that make you feel?Brittani: You know what? It makes me feel good, but it won't be the last. I believe in you guys.Zach: Ow! Had to do my own Cardi B "ow," goodness gracious. Thank you so much, I appreciate that. And, you know, I've gotta give you a Flex bomb just because you've been dropping casual just--[Flex bomb sfx] It's just ridiculous. Like, it's just incredible, but, like, I'm just so thankful that you're able to be here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Brittani: Yeah. So of course shout-out to my team. My editorial assistant, Alex, she came up with the name Mogul Mob and I love it, so shout-out--Zach: Oh, The Mogul Mob? Yeah, Mogul Mob be up in that WordPress putting content together like [Cardi B "bratbratbratbrat" sfx] You know what I'm saying? We out here.Brittani: [laughs] Yeah, so shout-out to them. They are all amazing, even--like, in their own individual lives they do so many great things, from being startup entrepreneurs, small business owners, freelancers, et cetera. Corporate bosses. They are just amazing. But the only other thing that I want to also shout-out or mention is that we gonna be launching our own online course platform through Mogul Millennial. It's called Mogul Genius, so look out for that. It will be released to a private group of people in October, but after that we'll be releasing it to the general public, so yeah.Zach: Look at you. Come on, now. Well, first of all, again, you know what, just shout-out to y'all. I've gotta go ahead and drop these air horns right here--[air horns sfx]--for The Mogul Millennial and, you know what, for Brittani Hunter. Thank you so much for being on our show. Y'all, that does it for us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporate, and on our website at living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, look, if you have any questions or any shout-outs you'd like to place on the show, you can contact us through the website or you can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us 'cause the DMs are wide open. Now, look, you can check us out online if you just Google Living Corporate. We're at all of the domains. Brittani, do you know we have every single Living Corporate variation besides Living Corporate dot com?Brittani: That's a smart way to go. A lot of people don't do that. I'm so glad that you do so somebody [can't?] steal it.Zach: Thank you. So we've got livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, but we don't have livingcorporate.com because Australia has livingcorporate.com. They've got, like, some apartment renting company out there.Brittani: Oh, my God.Zach: I'm saying, right? Now, look, one day though the brand is gonna be brolic enough we're gonna go and we're gonna get that domain. I just don't know when that's gonna be, but it's gonna happen. I'm speaking it.Brittani: They'll [?] forget to pay their renewal.Zach: They'll mess up. Yeah, real talk. Playas mess up, and they'll mess up too. [both laugh] You know what I'm saying? We've talked about Australia a little bit. I'm really trying to be careful 'cause I don't want to create no international beef, but I very much so do want the domain, so I'm trying to figure out, like, what the best strategy is. Maybe you and I could have a conversation offline about that.Brittani: Yeah, yeah. I could tell you a story about that. Zach: [laughs] All right, y'all. Well, look, this has been Zach Nunn, and you've been listening to Brittani Hunter, CEO and founder of The Mogul Millennial. Until next time. Peace.

Zach speaks with Kori Hale, CEO of CultureBanx, about CultureBanx itself and her personal career journey. They also discuss the concept of producing content, particularly while other, and Kori offers some great advice for professionals who are afraid to make a jump or do something new in their career.Connect with CultureBanx through their website, Instagram, and Twitter - and check out their content on Spotify!Connect with Kori on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and we are here again. More fire for your head top, more content, more real discussions with black and brown people or people that affirm the identities and experiences of black and brown people to center--that's right--black and brown people. And today is no different, 'cause, you know, we're coming to y'all with really good conversations, often times with a special guest, and we have such a guest today - Kori Hale. Kori, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Kori: Hi, Zach. I'm great. How are you?Zach: I'm doing really, really well. I appreciate the fact that you were able to take the time to be on the show. For those of us who don't know you, could you talk a little bit about yourself?Kori: Yes, I can, but before I do, I noticed in the opening you said this show is also for people who affirm the identities of black and brown people, and I was wondering if that included Rachel Dolezal. [laughs]Zach: Oh, goodness. You know what? If Rachel wants to--here's the thing about Rachel. I--it's so confusing, 'cause she could have done so much more as an actual white woman and, you know, given and used her privilege as--you know, and given it away. Instead she chose to, I don't know, handicap herself, but then also take a bunch of, like, praise? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. What do you think? You tell me.Kori: Yeah, I don't know. It is a tough one. However, homegirl can definitely braid some hair based on that Netflix documentary that I saw, 'cause I'm like, "Yo." I mean, normally white people just have less-textured hair, so it's much harder to actually, you know, braid in extensions, and I ain't ever even seen anyone iron some hair like that before. [both laugh] She was teaching me some stuff! So I was like, "Oh, girl, I didn't even know you could do all that."Zach: That's so funny. But you know what? I think this is a really good segue into what you do and your platform, but I'd love to hear more about your journey and kind of--so let's just get it out there. You're the CEO and founder of CultureBanx, which is a media platform for black folks, for black and brown--I'm gonna say black folks, and I'll let you kind of get into it, but let's talk a little bit about your journey and kind of how you got there and then really more about what CultureBanx is.Kori: Yes. So my journey is--well, as I like to say, the path that we're all on in life is not easy, nor is it paved in gold, and that's a lot like my story. I started out as an investment banker, first internationally at a Swiss bank in London, and then I moved back to the States and I was with Goldman Sachs for several years and just really realized, right, that there wasn't anyone that looked like me delivering high-level business financial news in a way that really would resonate with my community, with my core values, and so I was like, you know, "If I can't figure this out, let me maybe try and go work at some of the big networks," specifically business news networks, right, and figure out how can I maybe inject some diversity, because I think that a lot of us, when you work in corporate America, the main thing that you want to do is feel like--and I really actually hate when people use the word "safe places" or "safe space." Like, there's no safe space when you get up and you go to work for somebody else every day, right? Because it's their company. So, like, that doesn't exist, even if they want to create some employee resource group or whatever. Like, the head of the employee resource group still reports to somebody that doesn't look like them, [?] like, up to the CEO of the company. And so I thought I was gonna be able to inject diversity at networks like Bloomberg and CNBC, and even when I was a news anchor down on the floor of the Stock Exchange and actually didn't even know until I was down there that I was the first African-American woman to ever anchor a daily news show from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange in its 200+-year history, and I thought, "Well, that's odd." Like, "What's going on here? Why has that never been a thing until I worked at this media startup?" But through that transition of investment banking to then getting into media, what I really realized was that there was no outlet, broadcast, print, or digital, that was gonna deliver the type of content that I was looking for. So if a former investment banker journalist can't create this sort of company for communities that need it the most, then no one else is gonna go out there and do it, and that really brings us more to the present day and CultureBanx, the media company, and what we do is create business news for hip hop culture, and essentially all of our articles have music attached to it that then spins out into different curated Spotify playlists. So it's pretty dope if I do say so myself, because I--Zach: Aye. [laughs]Kori: I mean, it is. I look at music as that sort of underlying theme throughout all communities. It's an easy way to engage, an easy way to see a reflection of yourself, and what if we took that same approach to information and content and not keep pushing just entertainment and sports and celebrity and that sort of stuff to minority communities? Because we think--and by we, the people that are actually even pushing the content towards these communities aren't even from those communities, but they're trying to say, "Oh, this is what they want. This is the only thing they care about," but that's not true. It's just that you're putting it in a, as I like to say, razzle-dazzle sort of way. If you did the same thing but you talked about stocks and mergers and acquisitions, what a difference you might see in those communities.Zach: No, you're absolutely. And I mean, I think the other piece is, like, also acknowledging the work that those communities are already doing, right? So there's more and more black tech spaces that are coming up organically, right? Like, you think about--there's multiple of these types of pods, like, within the coastal cities, the DMV, LA, Oakland, Houston, the Midwest and Chicago. Like, there's all types of just organic things happening. Healthy living co-ops. There's all types of activities that are happening in these--again, like, in these black and brown communities, but there are larger, I think, like--I don't know, just larger narratives and systems in place that minimize those stories. And also there's a lack of funding, right, and marketing awareness for those organizations that are already in place. What I think I hear you talking about is really exciting because you're pushing more content, and then I also believe CultureBanx provides opportunities, or at least opens up a lens to what is actually happening today in those spaces, right?Kori: Yes. We definitely provide people with what we call the culturally-attuned perspective in those spaces. I mean, it's easy to see a headline--to your point--about minority maybe co-working spaces or different companies or organizations, institutions, that are focusing in the STEM fields as it relates to minorities. What we really try to push over at CultureBanx are the everyday stories though. So not just [whatever?] falls in the minority bucket 'cause it mentioned something about the Latinx or Asian or black community, but this story is the headline on all of these platforms, and this is information you need to know, but they're not gonna tell you exactly why it's relevant to your community, why you should personally care about something like that. And Zach, can I go ahead and give your listeners a quick example here?Zach: Come on.Kori: So last year, Michael Kors--the company, the retail brand--bought Versace, a very famous Italian luxury retail brand, for $3 billion. You would think on the surface, "Okay, well, that's interesting I guess, if you're into fashion," or even if you're not into fashion, but no one is telling you why that deal is really a play on urban culture. And the reason that Michael Kors really wants a bigger stake in Versace is because of Versace's long-standing love affair with hip-hop, hip-hop and the community, and hip-hop of course being the #1 genre of music for the past decade.Zach: In the world.Kori: Right. Hip-hop leads these trends, and the majority of hip-hop artists are African-American. We've seen a huge rise, right, with Latinx performers in the hip-hop community as well, but still all in that, you know, minority category, and just that spending power alone of African-Americans is currently at $1.3 trillion, making the spending power of this community larger than the economy of Mexico.Zach: Come on, now. [Flex bomb sfx]Kori: Y'all gotta feel me when I say we have more spending power than the entire country of Mexico just as an African-American community, a subset of the bigger U.S. population, but it's more powerful than entire countries. And so to get in front of that audience, right, is something that most brands want, and no one is gonna talk about that the way we're gonna tell you "This is why this is important," right? This market move by Michael Kors to acquire Versace is much bigger than them trying to perhaps get into more of the luxury business and much bigger than Versace trying to figure out how it can get into more stores. It's like, "Hey, we know their main audience, the people that are spending money." I mean, think of all of the free advertisement that Versace gets in hip hop songs?Zach: Oh, no, 100%. 'Cause part of me--I was talking to my wife about this. I was like, "Dang, I wonder if any of these rappers--like, do they have deals that they don't talk about?" Right? Like, when Migos made that song "Versace," right, like, did they have some secret deal, like, a marketing agreement, and, like, did Drake get a piece of that? 'Cause, like, it's just wild that--like, we do that though. Like, we'll talk about Polo, Versace, Gucci. Like, we love high-end brands. We talk about Pateks. Like, we talk about--anything that's, like, European and very expensive, like, they end up in rap songs, and I just ask myself--and maybe I'm a little bit more conspiratorial than I should be. I'm always thinking about, like, there's just some grander scheme here--like, I just wonder, like, is there some, like, larger agreement that maybe even some of these record labels have with these European brands to then create this content? 'Cause you're absolutely right. Like, we promote it at crazy levels. Like, I wouldn't have wore Polos when I was in middle school like I did if it wasn't for Kanye, and I wouldn't have wore--like, there's just a bunch of clothes that I just wouldn't have purchased without--like, without rap influence, you know what I mean?Kori: No, I completely understand what you're saying. I think that that's what makes this so fascinating and so interesting, that other businesses, industries, sectors, they really value, right, the trendsetting and the taste-makers that come from minority communities moreso than we will value our own, you know, power, and that's the problem, because sometimes I don't think that we really immensely understand the power that we have. So when things are not going right, let's say on the negative side--racism, sexism, those sort of things--like, how valuable withholding your dollars from certain brands can be to move the needle.Zach: Yes, you're absolutely right. And, you know, it's interesting because, you know, these insights that you're having around media production--like, the business insights that you're having and that you're bringing to this space, I mean, I think it comes from your business journey, right? Like, you've had a few different jobs, and you don't really give the impression of someone who's afraid to change. So, like, can we talk a little bit about where you started, and then, you know, what advice you would give to professionals who are wherever they are for whatever reason and they're afraid to make a jump and to do something new? Kori: Yes. I actually really love kind of telling this particular part of my journey, but I'ma take it back a little bit before I actually started working and shout-out my undergrad university, Hampton University, out there in the Hampton Roads area right outside of Virginia Beach. And going to an HBCU is a very great experience, but for me personally, growing up in Houston, Texas, I grew up knowing and being around affluent African-Americans, so that wasn't, like, a stretch for me, to see black people that had real money, not the--you know, the kind of clout money as they say. That wasn't really a stretch for me, but going to Hampton University and really getting a full scope and breadth of black people from across the country, like, that was very eye-opening for me, and what it instilled was really the value of appreciating what we can do as a community and, you know, us being a part of that talented [?] and what that would mean for the future of our community. And after Hampton, when I moved to London and started investment banking at the Swiss bank UBS, I was like, "Huh. Well, this is also odd, because now I'm back in this super minority--" I call it a double-minority status, because I'm not just, like, a black person living abroad--I'm a black person and I'm also an American, so it was just a lot of things to have to work through. But coming back to the States from London and working at Goldman, I kind of got a better sense of the way that corporate America worked, and I wanted--at the time I thought the ultimate goal was to become a partner, right? That's what you kind of train for, that's what you kind of work up--"what you should be," as the company will tell you, should be aspiring towards. [cha-ching sfx] And I'm like, "Okay, so let me sort out this path." And I figured out what that path was about two years after I started at Goldman. I stayed another couple of years, but after those first two years when I figured it out, I also got into the mindset of "Okay, I pretty much know what it's gonna take and how long it's gonna take me to get there." Like, "That can't be the mountaintop," so to speak, because there's got to be more to life than this. And I really just took those next two years where I was at the firm to kind of navigate what I wanted to do. Like, if you would have told me at the time that I started at Goldman that I would one day be running my own media company, like, I would have laughed at you, because I had no aspirations to be in media. I didn't know anything about journalism. Matter of fact, the day I left Goldman Sachs, I did not know one person that worked in media. I'm talking about not even an assistant, even a doorman at a building, security officer at a news room, nothing. Like, I literally knew no one that actually worked in any news corporation, but I felt like God spoke to me when I was at Goldman and said that this is what I should be doing. I just kind of decided to stick with it, and some of the partners that were mentors and sponsors for me, I ran this idea by them, that I, you know, was gonna leave Goldman and go to journalism school and try and become a business news journalist--they were very supportive, and they told me basically, like, you're young--I was around 26 at the time--and if it doesn't work out, you can always come back here. Like, "You can always come back to GS if it doesn't work out," but a lot of them were basically like, "Don't be like us." Like, "Don't buy into," essentially drinking the company corporate Kool-Aid, so to speak, and stay here because you've figured out the path and it seems safe and secure, because you'll always look back and say, "But if I would have given this other thing a shot, even if I failed, at least I would have known I tried." And going back to a respectable organization like GS isn't a terrible fallback plan for anyone. Luckily I haven't had to tap into that fallback plan, but you never know what the future holds. [laughs] So we can always see, but that's kind of how that transition happened.Zach: You know, it's just incredible because--I'll speak for myself, right? Like, you know, I didn't think that I would get here, where I am, in my job, you know? I didn't think that I would be--I didn't think I'd be working here. Like, I remember when I was in high school I said, "I think I want to be a consultant one day," and my high school counselor said, "You're not gonna be a consultant," right? You know? And then after that, before I became a consultant I was trying to pursue a career in HR. I had folks who look like me saying, "You're not gonna be an HR manager," right? So, you know, for me, because of that and not having a lot of people that look like me in these spaces, getting to one of these jobs seemed to be the mountaintop, right? But the reality is that there's more to life than just working for somebody else. And, you know, no shame to anybody who wants--like, who wants to be a career... career person, but there's more than that. You know, how did you navigate some of the--like, the fear and anxiety that came with, like, making that jump? So you came--I'm not gonna get into your pockets, but I would presume, I could be wrong, that perhaps your career at Goldman Sachs gave you a little bit more financial flexibility to, like, make certain moves and take certain risks that other people couldn't take. Is that a wrong assumption, or is that--you know, did any of that come into play in terms of, like--do you feel like, because of your job, you were able to--you had more space to kind of take that leap?Kori: I think my job gave me--and, like, the money I made while I was there, it definitely gave me the flexibility to be able to go to Syracuse's Newhouse School of Communication and figure out, like, "Could I make this journalism career a thing?" I think it definitely gave me that because I had the confidence to know that if, for whatever reason, it didn't work out, I would be able to go back and have, you know, a very good-paying job, but also, like, enough money, for the most part, to help me at least get through, like, the schooling part.Zach: So then--so let's talk a little bit about the concept of producing, right? So you're a content creator. You're a producer. It's a term though that's thrown around quite a bit, right? Especially, like, in today's digital age. What does it really mean in your mind to be a producer in the media space today?Kori: I look at content producers in general as people that are creating new original, authentic shows, articles, media content in general. So not the companies that are aggregators of information. Like, there are a lot of companies out there that are basically just pulling stuff from other people's websites, but they're not actually holistically creating something that was not there before, and that's really a major differentiator in the space, because--to your point about a lot of different, like, black and brown minority-based concepts popping up, you've got to be able to stand out on your own and be creating in a space that no one else is already creating in. I think that we definitely need minority spaces, but we shouldn't divide and conquer, right? We're stronger together. We don't necessarily need 50 different versions of co-working spaces for people of color. I'm not saying that we only need one, but would it make more sense to pool our efforts together in order to create something bigger? Zach: No, you're absolutely right. It's interesting though because it's--like, so kind of going on the co-working space thing and, like, other ideas, one, because, like, our networks--I don't know, our networks are just different, and also, like, because sometimes we come into spaces late, or we--and when I say come into spaces, I mean we don't have the same amount of support to, like, be early adopters in the spaces that we may see our white counterparts do. So, like, we'll come into a space, and we'll come into the space at the same time, and so it looks oversaturated, right? But I actually--like, I don't know. So talk to me more about--so you zoomed in on co-working spaces twice now. Like, talk to me a little bit more about what you're seeing in that space and why--like, what's your point of view on it? 'Cause, like, I think they're really cool. I'm a consultant, so I have a co-working space all of the time because of, like, just the nature of my job. Like, I can just go to any home office, like, through the firm that I work at, but I think that they're a pretty cool idea, and they seem to be used, but, like, I'm not really as plugged in. So, like, I'd be open to you educating me on it.Kori: Yeah. So, I mean, I don't--I have a co-working space as well, but I don't really use it that much, and it's not a co-working space at a place for people of color, but specifically on that front, like, I do know a couple of founders that are trying to launch their own versions of, like, specifically of women of color, others specifically for founders of color in a particular sector, like, that sort of thing. I actually feel like that is a very fragmented marketplace, almost much in the way of The Wing, which is a very popular all-female co-working space that WeWork has actually invested in, and I definitely think there's a space where, you know, women want to be, but one of the main issues with the WeWork is that there are no men allowed, which, if you're a smaller business--which most people that use co-working spaces tend to be--you don't always want to have to go outside of your co-working space for a meeting. And I think that there are other ones that have popped up along the way. Like, there's one for women executives, right, where it's also fragmenting the market, but it's fragmenting the market in a way that makes people feel like they're being part of an elite club, if you know what I mean. Like, "Oh, you have to be at a certain level at whatever your organization is to be invited to be a member here." I think that sort of way of strategically planning out how you roll out different co-working spaces for people of color is a better strategic roadmap to success than just saying, "We're opening up a place for people of color."Zach: What is the--what would you recommend as the approach to, like, unify and desegment that space?Kori: Right. I think the best way to look at it is like, "This is the community that we're trying to get in front of," or that we're trying to help, and really pinpointing "What are the most important things to those people?" And I can actually liken that back to CultureBanx, like, and going into roadmapping out how do you deliver content to this so-called new woke generation in a way that they can actually identify with and see a reflection of themselves and their community with? And when you think of co-working spaces, like, what is it that's most important to the community of potential co-working clients and users that makes the most sense? And back to CultureBanx, for us it was everything that tends to be pushed that does really well in front of minority audiences has something to do around entertainment, music, celebrity. So it's how do we bring that to what we do so that it doesn't seem like it's such a far off leap for people to be interested?Zach: So then what does it look like--you know, let's talk about, like, the professional who--maybe they're not looking to start their own company, they're not looking to--they're just trying to survive at their job, right? Let's talk about, like, the concept of producing and, like, bringing these--and, like, the principles that you're talking about with CultureBanx, and how do you think those principles can be applied to a black and brown professional at work? Because ultimately there seems to be a certain level of purposefulness and intentionality. That's the better word. A certain level of intentionality and strategy that it comes to really producing effectively and really kind of managing brand. Do you think any of that could be effectively leveraged, utilized, for folks in their 9-to-5 jobs? Kori: Yes, but I think it always starts with figuring out--like, knowing your end goal and working backwards. So as I mentioned earlier, when I thought my end goal was to become a partner at Goldman, it was "Okay, well, I want to become a partner. I'm only a senior analyst now." Like, "Let's scale back from partner and work our way backwards and see what it takes to get there," to your point, like, your own self brand management at work every day. And funny enough, this is something that a lot of people don't know about me, I actually left Goldman about two months after I got promoted, which is--but I had already been--but this is when I talk about the planning. I had already been planning, like, my strategic, like, exit. As you all know, I'm sure, that are listening right now, you know, you apply to a school, you have to wait to get in, that sort of thing. You know, take the tests or whatever tests you need to be admitted to these universities. So, like, I had already been strategically planning that, but I had also still been working on that plan of "If I do stay and try to navigate my way to someday becoming partner--" I was still working that plan too and, you know, just came to that crossroads of "Huh, do I--" Even after I got promoted I almost decided that I was gonna stay and not even pursue this whole journalism path. I'm like, "Oh, this happened sooner than expected." So, you know, I was on the high-performing track as they call it at some companies, the fast track to moving up. Like, there was no real reason for me to want to leave other than I felt like my life's purpose and calling was greater than what I was currently doing. And when you are constantly in this strategic mode of planning out "What does it look like in my 9-to-5 every day to be able to push to the next level?" Everything about what you do has to be very heavily managed, as a person of color especially, and I know that in corporate America people try to heavily, like, push this whole concept of mentorship and sponsorship. I will tell you I'm not a huge fan of mentors, and every time I say that people will, like, give me their pushback, which is fine. You're entitled to your own opinion. But especially in corporate America, sponsorship is significantly more powerful than mentors, because mentors, they can also be sponsors, but you know how much more effective it is if you come to somebody with a game plan already and say, "Would you be willing to help me navigate executing this plan or this strategy?" As opposed to going to a mentor and being like, "You know, I'm really trying to figure out what role I want," or "I'm moving to the next department and thinking through--" Like, show up with some skin in the game already. Like, "I've already done X, Y, and Z, and it would be great if you could help facilitate." Now, obviously most people don't want to--I shouldn't say they don't want to. Most people want to feel like they're imparting their wisdom and knowledge on you, but if you're in a position where you can make that person look good by helping them or by them getting you to the next level, that only sets you up for more success.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. I also do think that there's a certain level--I don't know. I'm not trying to, like, pathologize nobody, and I'm not a psychologist, [but] I do believe that there is a meta-narrative of, like, non-minorities paternalistically trying to tell black and brown folks what to do, and they kind of revel in, you know, putting people in their place or just raising them in some way. [laughs] So I 100% agree with you. I think a lot of that stuff is often, like, self-aggrandizing and ego-centric. To your point around--like, I think it's more about the relationships you can build and what value you can directly say that you helped somebody else with to help them be successful. That's the way that I've seen people really climb up, right? It's not necessarily being like, "Oh, this person pulls me aside and gives me things to work on, and that's how I got promoted so fast." That's not really the case, 'cause you and I both have seen folks, you know, in an industry who have no business being in the position that they're in, and yet, you know, they're there, you know?Kori: Yeah. I mean, I think we all see that in this country, starting at the very top at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.Zach: Oh, wait a minute. Hold on now. [and i oop sfx]Kori: Not getting deeply into politics, but just saying, like it or hate it, if you agree with his politics or not--'cause people could say the same thing about 44, President Obama. Like him or hate him, you could argue one way or another and say maybe he didn't deserve--purely based on a resume, not basing on anything else. Purely basing it on so-called skills and qualifications for the role, you could make a case that he wasn't necessarily qualified, and it could be justified. You could make the same case for the current president, that he is not qualified for some of the same on the opposite end of the spectrum. I look at Barack and I say--excuse me, let me put some respect on that man's name. I look at President Obama--Zach: Come on, now.Kori: [laughs] And say that--it would be easier for people to say, you know, he doesn't actually have any business experience. He hasn't been serving in public office for any lengthy amount of time. Like, things that you would call into question for someone who would be taking the office of president. And on the other end of the spectrum you have president Trump, and you can say, "Yeah, he's run some corporations." They, on the outside, seem successful, but as we all know, when you dig in there are lots of question marks and, you know, missing documents, but you would say, "But he's never served in public office. What does he know about actually serving people essentially that aren't, you know, paying customers in that way?" Outside of the taxes that we pay. And you would question whether or not that someone is fit for that position. So yes, to your point, we all find that. "Why is this person in this position?" Well, most of the time it comes down to a likability factor. It doesn't come down to skill sets. And that's really my point, is that it's proven at the highest level. Like, something that my mom would always say to my older brother Kenan and I--primarily it started when we were in college--she would tell us, "You can either network or not work." Like, you going into work every day and doing your job that you're hired for, that's only 50% of your job. The other 50% needs to be you networking with people, because you don't know where your next opportunity is gonna come from, and your next opportunity, the likelihood that it comes from what you're doing sitting at your desk every day is very slim. It mostly comes from that person that you got coffee with once every two or three months.Zach: And I think this is the--so I don't know. I feel like you and I should actually have, like, another conversation. This isn't, like--you know, we don't typically do, like, in-depth conversations about different points of view on, like, whiteness or just, like, privilege, but, like, I'm curious to get your point of view on, like, even that. Like, that right there, the idea that you're building relationships off of the people that you're getting coffee with. Like, there are barriers to making sure that you even get that coffee, you know what I mean? Like, there are certain people that get invited to get coffee and then some people who don't, right? And then there's--and then as you even get to, like, the executive levels, you know, so many sales relationships are built on historical relationship equity that black and brown people just don't have 'cause they haven't been in these spaces. And so, like, I'm curious as to, like, your point of view on what does it look like--when you talk about relationships, when you talk about, like, navigating--and we kind of strayed away from the concept of producing, but I still think we're there. Like, what does it look like to use those tools to then, like, create those connections as much as you can?Kori: Yeah, getting invited to coffee versus, you know, kind of pushing your way in, I think that as a minority myself and other minorities especially working in corporate America need to take that ownership of organizing, of basically being like, "I'm gonna set up this sort of coffee situation." And I can give you all an example of my own personal story. So I worked at a media startup called Cheddar before I launched CultureBanx, and I actually knew the founder of Cheddar for a year or so before he ever even launched that company because he used to be the president of BuzzFeed, and then after that he was the CEO of The Daily Mail, and I knew him because I would book him as a guest to come on this show I used to produce for called Squawk Alley on CNBC. [owww sfx] And I used to just, you know, book him, and you kind of just build relationships, right, from being a producer, with different people, and that is essentially how I got that next role. So it had nothing to do with the fact of what I got up and went into work to do every day. Zach: Right. And again, what I continue to hear is just the willingness to put yourself out there. It's just so interesting, because, like, with non-whiteness I believe comes a certain level of unfamiliarity, right? So, like, you have the--if you don't look like somebody, even if--so let's just say there's two white people, right? They may have completely different backgrounds. Like, they may have completely different religious, socio-economic, even, like, cultural backgrounds, but that, like--the benefit of looking like somebody, there's certain grace that's given and space that's made to, like, more easily build relationships, where as if you're a person of color, like, what I'm hearing a lot--even though you're not saying it explicitly, Kori--is, like, you had to put yourself out there. You had to be enterprising. You had to connect the dots. You had to be much more strategic and intentional with your time and with, like, even how you present yourself and the things that you're doing and what you offer, right? Like, you had to really come--you had to really be thinking of a position of value creation, and that's great for you. Like, you're clearly a beast, right? Like, you've been--you've made moves moves, but what does it look like for--like, teaching that to somebody who isn't wired that way. Right? That could be challenging.Kori: It definitely is, and I am in no way a master of teaching it to other people. I know I have personal friends that say, "Kori, you're really great at public speaking," or "You're really great at going in and selling yourself or whatever it is that you're doing to other people." This is what I will say - it's a learned skill. Like, I didn't come out of the womb, like, doing this. There's definitely certain personality traits that are more akin to being able to just pick up these sort of things and these sort of characteristics, but it's a learned skill day in and day out, and it can start very basic. Going back to the coffee thing. Like, getting comfortable--which I know this is overused--with the uncomfortable, with making yourself uncomfortable. And if you're not the type who's gonna send a random email--which I love when people say to me, "Well, I mean, what am I gonna say?" I'm like--to your point about it kind of being a bit narcissistic with mentorship and that, people do love to talk about themselves. So just put it out there that, "Hey, you know, I'd like to talk to you. I'd like to learn more about what you do." And make it more about them. Normally, like, if you're in a relationship and you break up with somebody, you give them the "It's not you, it's me" speech. In business, give them the "It's not about me, it's all about you" speech. Like, when you send the email, like, "Hey, this whole thing is about you," right, "'cause you're so great, you're so fantastic. I just want to know about what you're doing." As a way to soften the introduction or the awkwardness that you think lies there, because you might not really know someone, even though that's something that you eventually might want to do or an area that you might want to move into. You have to do more, because you didn't go to boarding school with So-and-so, you know what I mean? You probably didn't go to all of the right Ivys, and even black people that have gone to Ivys, like--Zach: Listen, I've heard. Yeah, I've heard the experiences are different.Kori: Yeah. Like, if you didn't grow up in that world, like, you're still not necessarily accepted. So I think it's just you have to put yourself out there because they're not gonna know to contact you. Like, your parents, you know what I'm saying, y'all don't go sell off, you know, Martha's vineyard [?]. You didn't grow up going to summer camp for two months after you left boarding school, so basically you only saw your parents on holidays, and you're not even in college. You're only in the seventh grade. Zach: Right. You didn't go to Vermont to make artisanal pickles, you know what I'm saying?Kori: No, you didn't do any of that. So they already have 10--and that's just, like, at your level. Now you've got to think about how connected these parents are. Like, you're fighting a major uphill battle, and you can't go in every day and say, "I'm heads down. I'm gonna do a great job," which is something that they try to preach to you, right? Like, "Just go in. Work hard. Excel at your role." Like, "That's how you're gonna see opportunities."Zach: That's not true. Like--[laughs]Kori: You know why you're not gonna see any opportunities? Because your head is down at your desk or on the computer screen.Zach: And meanwhile we're upset. We're over here like [what more do you want from me? sfx] You know? It's just like--we're doing everything we can. So I 100% hear you and I agree with you, right? And not that I need to agree with you - this is a space of open ideas, you know? So diversity of thought is not real, but we do appreciate diversity of thought as it pertains or intersects with lived experiences of black and brown folks. So this has been super cool. Look, we've talked about CultureBanx, we've talked around CultureBanx. One thing we haven't done is talk about where people can learn more about CultureBanx, so please drop the info in here. We'll make sure to put it in the podcast notes and everything, but please let us know.Kori: Yes. Check us out at CultureBanx.com. You can find all of the content on our website. Sign up for our newsletter, daily newsletter, bringing you the latest, greatest, most important business news for the culture, as we say, every single day. You can also listen to the CultureBanx daily news briefing on any smart speaker device and also on Spotify. Everything is @CultureBanx on social media. Luckily we got in. There's no other company called CultureBanx, so it's the same--Zach: Aye. People underestimate how powerful that is. If you have the only name and you've got the domains--'cause let me tell you something. I've got--no, keep going. I'm messing your plug up. Keep going.Kori: [laughs] No, you're not, but it is important. Like, everything is literally just @CultureBanx. With an X, people. Don't forget.Zach: Please say the X, you know what I'm saying? Hold on. [Flex bomb sfx, both laugh] Oh, my goodness. Well, look, this has been super dope, and, you know, we just really appreciate you. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Kori: Parting words? I think the main parting words I would have is something that we say on our show, which is just keep building for the culture. Zach: Come on, now.Kori: We gotta do it for each other.Zach: [straight up sfx] You're absolutely right. Now, look, this has been a dope conversation. Thank you all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. Now, look, y'all know--I wasn't trying to mess up Kori's plug, but y'all know we got all the Living Corporates, okay? We got livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net, livingcorporate.us. We don't have livingcorporate.com. We have living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com, but we don't have livingcorporate.com. Australia has livingcorporate.com. Believe it or not, Kori, Australia, and they're selling corporate stuff. But see, the SEO looking kind of brolic out here, 'cause now when you type in Living Corporate--they used to be at the top. Now they're like, you know, in 8th or 9th. You know what I'm saying? Like, we applying pressure, you feel me? One day the brand will be brolic enough where we're gonna go to Australia and we will politely, respectfully, yank that domain right on back, and we're gonna have all the livingcorporates, and we're gonna just sit on a mountain of domains, you know what I'm saying?Kori: Which is not a bad idea. I'm actually helping out this other startup that's trying to modernize central banks, and the name of the company--which I won't throw out there right now--is so generic, and the person, the founder, has been using, like, different versions of the name of the company to try and set up, you know, different social accounts, and they have--even the website's name is not what she calls the actual name of the company, and I'm like, "This is too confusing. Like, people don't know where to go."Zach: 100%. People be having, like, the dopest ideas and be like, "Oh, we're gonna launch Bread.com." Like, yo, fam, you gotta figure out something else. Like--Kori: Right. You had to launch Bread.com when the internet first started. Like, the late '80s, mid-to-late '80s. Like, that's when you needed to launch that, but at this point no.Zach: Straight up. Man, this is funny. This is, like, the first, like, interrupted outro we've done, but it's really good. I like it, and we might have to start doing this moving forward. All right, y'all. Look, you can check us out. We're everywhere. In fact, just Google Living Corporate at this point. That's right. Stunt. That's right. Lowkey flex, but it's an honest flex. So Google Living Corporate. We out here. If you have questions you want to email us, check us out at LivingCorporatePodcast@gmail.com. Hit us up on the DMs. Twitter is @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram is @LivingCorporate, and until next time, this has been Zach, and you have been talking to Kori Hale, CEO and founder of CultureBanx. Peace.

Zach speaks with the founders of Dipper, Jacinta Mathis and Netta Jenkins, about the value of your personal voice. They also share their journeys that led them to create Dipper and talk about their plans for the platform in 2020.Connect with Jacinta and Netta on LinkedIn!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and you know how we do, right? We come on, I say something like "What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate," and then I maybe remind y'all that we're a platform that amplifies the voices of black and brown people at work, right? You should get the drift now. We're at, like, episode a hundred and something. Now, as you also should know by now, I'm bringing to y'all some more fire for ya head top, some dope guests. Now, this is really only the second time in the history of Living Corporate that we've interviewed two people at the same time, so, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to us for that, and I'm just really excited 'cause we're getting--I don't want to say two for the price of one 'cause that's kind of cheesy, right? But I'm saying we have two incredible guests, Netta Jenkins and Jacinta Mathis. Jacinta: Hey.Netta: Woo-hoo!Zach: What's up, y'all? Now, look, we're just gonna get straight into it. I'm not even gonna go through the whole intros 'cause y'alls bios, if I was to try to do it, you know what I'm saying, I'ma take up all the time. [Jacinta and Netta laugh] So for those of us who don't know y'all, please share a little bit about yourselves.Netta: Yeah. Jacinta, would you like me to start off? Or--Jacinta: Go for it, girl. Go for it.Netta: Okay. Well, I guess I'll start off with something fun. So I'm an Afrobeats living room dancer. Love Afrobeats.Zach: Oh, turn up. Come on, Afrobeats.Netta: [laughs] But aside from that, I'm the author of Self-Advocacy & Confidence for a Fearless Career, a Liberian-American woman. I'm a wife, a mom to a four-month-old baby boy and a six-year-old, and I'm also co-founder of Dipper. You know, by night, and vice president of global inclusion for Mosaic Group and Ask Applications by day in a full-time capacity. And I'd say, you know, in my full-time role I focus heavily on breaking systemic gaps and publicly challenging the notion of simply adding diversity doesn't equate to an inclusive and equitable work environment. And I'm just really excited about our Dipper platform that, you know, helps guide professionals to a better workplace, whether good, bad, or indifferent, and we're really, you know, giving people of color a voice, and we're holding companies accountable and helping them to be improved at the same time.Zach: Well, come on now, Mrs. Jenkins. I appreciate you.Netta: Hey, hey, hey. [laughs]Zach: Come on, now. Wait a minute, now. Let me give us this Flex bomb. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? That was incredible.Jacinta: That was well-deserved. Well-deserved.Zach: Well-earned, absolutely. Okay, now go on, Jacinta. You got it.Jacinta: Yeah, so I am Jacinta Mathis. I am a Floridian who's stuck in New York. I've been here for about 11 years, and I don't think I'm leaving any time soon. I'm a data-driven performance marketer. I also focus on product growth and really feel like that's my specialty. And, you know, I'm working on building amazing products and then telling people about them. That's a lot of what I do. I'm also an evolving executive at an amazing tech company and co-founder of Dipper with Netta that we feel is revolutionary in providing this digital safe space for people of color that we have, you know, formed ourselves, with our own network. We're just making it something that can exist at scale and reach millions of people. And also I am, you know, a life partner and a mother to my amazing little family.Zach: Wait a minute, now. [Cardi B "ow" sfx] You know what I'm saying? [all laugh] So let's do this, let's do this. You talked a bit about who you are, but what's been y'all's journey, right, in becoming the entrepreneurs, public speakers, educators, corporate leaders, you know, and advocates that y'all are today? Like, how did y'all get to this place where y'all came together to really create Dipper? 'Cause I want to talk about Dipper as we talk about really, like, the value of your personal voice, but, like, how did we get here?Jacinta: Yeah. I think this is how Netta and I connected, because we were both raised--like, somebody nurtured us, watered us, so that we could become the sisters we are today, and really I think our legacy and what has happened before we even existed really helped mold the journey that we live today. And so, you know, I moved to New York to be a writer, and I ended up working at interning--when you could intern for free and it was legal--at PR agencies. I also worked in a restaurant, and I also had a gig at Target, and through working in a restaurant I met someone who was a media seller and kind of told me how ad agencies in the city work and really helped mentor me into a role at an ad agency, and that was kind of how my media buying, kind of advertising and marketing career really kicked off. And then when everything became digital I kind of literally fell into a tech company that ended up not being successful, but then I ended up at a really successful one where I met Netta and really helped build my career. And I think from there I realized, you know, tech would be a big part of everything that I did, and really this kind of experience and providing a safe place was something that I looked for everywhere I worked, and so when--just talking to Netta, it was like, "We have to make this a thing." Like, "It's something we have to do together."Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, when I start thinking of the journey, it dates back to when I was much younger, and so, you know, my African parents, they really stressed the importance of education and confidence at a very young age. So while kids were on their summer vacation or playing outside, I was the one reading books and creating goals. And I read a lot. I asked a lot of questions. Sometimes teachers were a little overwhelmed. Like, "Damn, she's asking too many questions." And then also being able to hear my parents tell me, "Listen, you have the ability to create change," really gave me the confidence to do anything that I had set my mind to. And so it started off by me becoming president of the freshmen class, where I was one of only three black people in the school at that time, to heading off to college, graduating in three years instead of four. Just, like, really being ambitious in all of my goals and then starting a casting company in college, and really that was to create a safe space for women to model and act in the entertainment industry. Because obviously it's very--it's, like, predominantly male-driven when it comes to, you know, the clients. And then business led me to Boston, where I completed my MBA, and off I was after that to New York, because predominantly a large amount of my clients were located in New York. But unfortunately there came a point where, you know, my business that I had grown in college and had expanded was no longer sustainable, and so I started looking at technology recruiting contract opportunities because I just couldn't see myself in a full-time opportunity immediately after owning my own business. I'm like, "How am I gonna be able to report to somebody?" So that whole concept in my head, I just couldn't wrap my head around that, but I've always been passionate about technology like Jacinta, and data, and specifically providing opportunities for people. Love seeing people win, and that led me into my contract recruiter role with the current company that I'm with today. That turned into a full-time opportunity, and I was able to jump from level to level in a matter of four years, and now at a VP level--[cha-ching sfx]--uh-oh. Cha-ching. [both laugh] But, you know, I think what it is is there's a lot of people that ask me, like, "Netta, how were you able to get to the level that you're at so quickly?" And it's really about building meaningful relationships. I think executives were able to trust me. Executives saw that the employees trusted me. They liked the boldness, sort of the non-sugarcoating attitude in "We're not gonna have quotas here." You know, "We really have to dig deep and deal with some of these systemic gaps." And then just simply the ability to empower employees to create change, and I always say that the key to success has been persistence, working smart, and really never quitting, and I'm really, really excited that I'm working alongside with Jacinta. We worked together at the same organization for many years, and she's phenomenal. So to be able to have, you know, a teammate that you can learn from every single day is truly inspiring, and so I'm happy that we're in this place where we're at now.Zach: Well, come on, then. You know, I just--this is dope, and you've already kind of touched on it a little bit, but you said earlier about, like, using technology to help people. I'm really curious about, you know, your passion around that, because there's been multiple studies shown that even though the world is becoming more and more technically advanced and we're seeing--like, we're seeing opportunities open up within these tech spaces, [but] we're not necessarily seeing opportunities for black and brown people growing at an equal rate, right? Like, we're still seeing a bit of like, "Hm." I don't want to say segregation. We're not seeing, like, any type of uptick when it comes to opportunities and employment and progression and succession, and so I think that's really awesome that we have people in these spaces who are advocating for those voices and those people. So check this out. Today we're talking about--I said all of that as a digression in this mug. Okay, so now, today we're talking about the value of your personal voice. So, like, when did each of you realize that your voices mattered, especially within the workplace? Like, was there ever a moment where you were like, "Man, wait a minute. I can actually speak up and it mean something."Jacinta: Netta, do you want to go first? Or do you want me to? [both laugh]Netta: No, you go for it.Jacinta: I think--I feel like it's fortunate and unfortunate it took other people recognizing it before I really recognized it. I think Netta kind of touched on this a little bit too. Like, people will talk about you when you're not in the room, right? And hopefully those people are sponsors and will advocate for you, and I think it really became a point where it was like, "Oh, Jacinta should be here." Like, literally getting grabbed and brought into a meeting, you know? Or someone saying, "Oh, we think we should run with this product change. What does Jacinta think?" Or, you know, really wanting to understand your input and value, and then when you present something seeing people jump into action or, you know, really seeing change happen. I think that's when I realized--I was like, "Oh, wait. People hear me. Like, they're really listening to me, and they're really taking what comes out of my mouth as word and that it's something that we should do," and I think sometimes, especially as a black woman in a corporate space, you may tell yourself to, like, mute your voice a little bit, but I was finding that what is kind of the stereotype was what people wanted me to embrace in my own way, especially--'cause sometimes you're in a room and nobody's saying "This is wrong." So they're like, "Oh, we know Jacinta will call it a spade," you know? [both laugh] So it's really having people around me that helped empower me to realize, like, my voice mattered and that people were hearing me, and then I just got more--you get more comfortable in that, and then having your network--like, I had Netta, and sometimes we would talk to each other, and I would bounce an idea off of her or show her a presentation before it went before the executive team or the board, just because I was like, "Well, what do you think about this?" And that helped me strengthen my voice too in the workplace.Netta: Yeah, absolutely. I think Jacinta's spot on with that. It's really about, you know, being able to lean on those people within the organization that you trust that empower you to have that voice, you know, to be bold, to speak up for yourself, to advocate for yourself and advocate for others. And so, you know, Jacinta was definitely that sounding block for me, and she still is even as business partners. We're always bouncing ideas off of each other, work-related situations like, "Hey, how should we get through this? How should we handle this?" And it's easier that way, right? It's harder when you're alone, and that's how come I think Jacinta and I both use the line "It really takes a village to create change and to get things moving." And Jacinta is my village, [laughs] so I'm thankful for that. I also feel early on as well I started noticing that I had a little voice and my voice mattered somewhat. Like I mentioned before, I was one of three in high school, and in middle school I was, like, one of two black people, and I remember just, you know, a whole bunch of racial slurs said. We were the only black family in that neighborhood at the time. It was a pretty, like, affluent neighborhood, and I remember going home to my mom and crying about some of the things that were said to me, and the one pivotal thing that my mom said to me is, "I didn't bring you on this earth to cry. I brought you here to create change." And I kid you not, that has been the most powerful line for me throughout my life, 'cause I always think about that. I'm like, "Wait, hold on. My mom brought me on this earth to create change." You know? And so when I got into high school, that's the reason why I ran for president of the freshmen class, because I wanted to create change. I knew of, you know, the inequities and the challenges that were going on. I was tired of them just putting up a picture of Martin Luther King and thinking like, "All right, we're done with Black History Month!" And then that's it, you know? I was really ready to challenge that, and I did, and I think that really prepared me for the work that I do now.Zach: So then let's talk a little bit about the work, right, that y'all are doing now, and about Dipper, right? And, like, by the way, the website is super fire. I very much so enjoyed the layout. I liked it a lot. But, like, how did this passion that y'all have and this realization, this self-realization of your voice and it mattering, play into the creation of Dipper?Jacinta: Yeah. It's so weird. I feel like every answer we're gonna be talking about our parents, right? [both laugh]Zach: That's fine.Jacinta: Yeah. So my dad was a chief diversity and inclusion officer for--I would say in the early '90s, before, like, diversity and inclusion was a thing--Zach: Your dad?Jacinta: Yeah, my father.Zach: Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. So you said your father was a chief inclusion and diversity officer in the '90s? [record scratch sfx, all laugh]Jacinta: You're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa." Yeah. And so, like, before it was really a thing. He was a Fortune 500 company and pushing them to make strides to create these more inclusive workplaces, not only for their employees but also for their vendors, and just seeing a lot of those, like, conversations happen at our dinner table--my mother was an attorney at a law firm, and I think she was one of the only black attorneys, and she was also a female. And so just kind of--these are the conversations that you would come home to for dinner, and just hearing about the things that they were dealing with and how, you know, how they would get through it and how they would grow and maybe even how they decided to exit, you know? And then working with Netta and really seeing how we built this village and this corporate space to talk to each other about raises, promotions, breastfeeding advice, whatever, you know? We were leaning--although it's important to lean in, sometimes you also have to lean on somebody, [and i oop sfx] and so we had to lean on each other, you know? So we met--I think it was lunch. I don't want to be cliche and say it was brunch. And we were just, you know, articulating how this needed to become something that other people could participate in, and with our backgrounds in tech it just seemed like the right path. It seemed like the thing that we should do. And I think in my heart I wanted Netta to be like, "That was a horrible idea," [laughs] but she was like, "Girl, yes. We have to do this," and, you know, immediately we connected with a company that we knew--he actually went to college with me and is an alpha, and [I'm an AK?], and so I reached out to him immediately and was like, "We need a dope website," and they were able to work with us to create that. And I really feel like it's been, like, this catalyst that has helped us launch and helped us reach so many people. Zach: Well, shout-out to the Divine Nine, you know what I'm saying? [they laugh] I respect how you slipped that in there. You know, I'm a [?], but I always respect my--Jacinta: [laughing] It was not intentional.Zach: No, no, no, but it just comes out, you know?Jacinta: This is true. It just leaps out, yes. [laughs]Zach: Can you--I know we're gonna get to Netta's side, but I just want to pause really fast. I'm gonna respectfully ask that you tell your sister, Kamala Harris, to promote this episode when it comes out. We won't use any type of logos, so don't sue us please. But if you could just--[all laughing]Jacinta: I will [?] her right now. I will slide in her DMs. [laughs]Zach: Please. If you could. We'll even--I was about to joke and say we'll even put, like, some [?]--but I don't want any type of [Law and Order sfx], you know? No issues.Jacinta: Yes, I respect that.Zach: Okay. Well, cool, I appreciate the answer. Netta, please go ahead.Netta: Yeah, no, I--oh, my gosh. I don't have much to add other than Jacinta was definitely spot on. That's exactly how it happened, and we're really excited about this--you know, overall excited about this platform because it gives people a chance to really share their experiences, and also it gives us a chance to hold companies accountable if they are not doing it right. It gives us a chance to guide professionals of color in the right direction. It's funny - I'm a part of, you know, many different Slack channels. One in particular, Black Tech Women, and just today there were a couple of people that were just talking about, "Hey, I wish I could gain insight on this particular company," or "Do you guys know what's happening to this technology company?" You know, "How's the culture there for people of color?" And I'm like, "Listen, head to ourdipper.com, because we definitely provide that type of insight." So there's a lot more people that's looking for that. They don't want to waste their time in organizations that aren't going to value them, and we're really excited to be, you know, launching something like this that can push professionals of color in the right direction.Zach: I know we're kind of talking, like, around it. Like, we're saying, like, you know, at a high level what it is, but, like, from what we talked about, Netta, in our conversation--like, help me understand. If we were to, like, kind of compare it to something, is it almost like Glassdoor but, like, for the black people? And brown people?Netta: I don't want to say Glassdoor, right? We could say maybe, like, if Glassdoor, Yelp, and Black Lives Matter had a baby. Zach: Oh, snap. Okay, got you. I got you.Jacinta: That was good.Netta: Can I get a boom or a bang?Zach: Oh, hold on. Hold on, I apologize. Hold on, hold on, hold on. [Flex bomb sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? Hold on. [kids applause sfx] You know what I'm saying? I got y'all. I got y'all. I was gonna make, like, a really bad joke and say, like, "Is it like Vibraniumdoor?" Jacinta: [laughs] And it's really focused--I think Netta and I--and this is all based on the type of people you have in your network, but, like, I know with my girls, like, you can complain--we can complain to each other. We can vent, but after you're done talking, they're gonna be like, "So what are you doing?" Like, "What are you doing? What are we doing? What are you doing different?" Like, "Are you gonna make a move?" And I think that's where we saw the gap. It's like, "Yes, we want you to vent, we want you to have a safe space," but we also think it is time and there needs to be a space for someone to ask an organization, "What are you doing? "What are you doing to fix it?" "What are you doing to make this better?" "What are you doing to retain these talented people who are exiting, and they all happen to be brown?" You know, just really addressing critical issues and making that information, you know, accessible to them but within reason. Accessible and actionable, you know? 'Cause this is a safe place, and it is an anonymous platform, you know? And that is the key. We want people to feel protected, because they are, and I think a lot of times we don't speak out. And Netta often talks to me about this, like, "People aren't speaking out because they don't feel safe." And so that was very important to us, that this community is our top priority, and, like, that is where we want our goal to be.Zach: So it kind of sounds--again, while keeping people safe, it's like you really got receipts on people. So let's just say, like, if--I don't know, I ain't tryna mess up my sponsorship dollars so I'm not gonna say a company, but let's just say Insert Company Here was like, "We're mad inclusive," and y'all come back with the receipts looking like [haha sfx]. Like, "No, you're not," you know what I'm saying? We got all these people saying there's some issues you need to shape up. But we also talked about the fact that, like, it's not just for airing organizations out. It also can be a place where people are also giving positive feedback and stories, right?Netta: Right.Jacinta: Absolutely.Netta: And overall, we want these companies improved, you know? If they're not doing well, we want to be able to provide them with the solutions to solve that issue. We're not leaving them high and dry, and, you know, I think that's the difference with other platforms or a Glassdoor or a Yelp. ["stupid" sfx plays in the background] We're looking to improve these companies. Jacinta: Mm-hmm. And you want to know where--like, you want to know if some place is a good place for you to go to, and we get--just as many bad reviews as we get we get good ones, and, you know, we get people who are like, "I've had a great experience here. I've been able to grow. I've been developed. I have an amazing mentor. I want more people who are brown and more people of color to come here. I don't want to be the only one." You know? So I want to see them here more and know about the opportunities here. Zach: No, it's really cool, and I do hear your point around, like, you're not just gathering the data just to gather the data. Like, there's a consulting play to it too, right? Where you then say, "Look, this is what people are saying good and bad. Here are our recommendations," and then you're able to actually come alongside them to your point and actually, like, be a partner. And I think it's interesting because there's so many organizations out there, even as we have these group meetings and Slacks and folks are venting and stuff, [and] there really has yet to be one central location where we'll be like, "Mm-mm. Dawg, don't go over there. Mm-mm." You know what I'm saying? But it should be like that. Like, you know, the Lion King remake came out. People want to act like the Lion King remake wasn't fire. I thought it was great, but whatever. So remember, like, when Mufasa was, like, looking over the cliff, right, and he was talking to Simba, and he was like, "Everything the light touches is your kingdom," and Simba was like, "Oh, snap. What about over there?" He said, "That is the elephant graveyard. You don't ever go over there. Relax." That's pretty much like--you know, that's an opportunity for Dipper too, but, like, we don't really have that. We don't have a collective, you know, Pride Land overview of the workplace as it were.Netta: Yeah, and companies--I believe it was last year, McKinsey and Company did a study, and, like, companies are spending more than $8 billion on diversity and inclusion efforts. And we're like, "Who is that benefiting?" Zach: It ain't benefiting nobody. We've still got blackface on company pencils.Jacinta: Exactly. We're not on your board of directors. Few and far between of us are CEOs of the Fortune 500, 1000 companies, and, you know, we get pings--Netta and I get pings all of the time, especially in, like, the VC world, of people saying, "Do you know somebody who could be my chief of operations? Do you know somebody who could be my chief of people?" And we're like, "Absolutely." Like, I will respond to people with a list, LinkedIn profiles connected, you know? Because we feel we are here, we exist, and there just really needs to be this space for us. And there are people also who have done this before us, you know? There are people who may have been peers to my father [kids applause sfx] and they have a lot of insights to share, but they don't have a place to share them, you know? So it's kind of like we can't all go to the conference, we can't all go to the talk, but you could participate in our website and go to ourdipper.com.Netta: Right, and I think companies definitely have this warped perception of that "Okay, well, if we have a few black and brown faces, we've won," you know? "Let's put out the PR," and obviously it's much deeper than that like Jacinta was saying. There's the equity piece. Are we giving people the access and the exposure to not only move up but to have a voice and are able to lead, you know, in their own way? A lot of the times, when we hear about black and brown folks' experiences that are in high-level positions, they're still kind of oppressed, right? They really don't have that power to lead and that confidence. So, you know, those are key data points that we definitely want to bring out and share, again so that these companies are improved.Zach: Man, you said a lot right there, you know what I'm saying? I'm not trying to, like, wear out the Flex bomb, so I'ma just give it a little break. [all laugh] And you know--this is the thing, right? There is a--I don't know. I feel like sometimes, you know, these companies, they think they've just done SO much when they put, like, two black people in charge, you know what I'm saying? And we're like, "Yeah, but there's nobody else." And then these two--like you just said, these two black people, like, they're not really doing anything, or you just kind of shuffle 'em out there and they just kind of say some canned message that you wanted them to say. They're not really moving the needle in no kind of way. You talk to 'em and they're looking back at you--you know, they're looking back at you like that blank face on Get Out, you know what I'm saying? You go in for the dap, they grab your fist. You're like, "What happened?" Like, what's going on, you know what I'm saying? So--Jacinta: Or they sometimes don't have the support. They really don't have that support, so they're feeling alone, you know? Even if there's just two, two of you, it's like you may not have that guidance that you need to feel confident to really make those moves that you may want to make, and I think that happens with a lot of people.Zach: No, you're absolutely right. 'Cause I'ma tell you for me, like, you know, I'm in a position--and often times I'm one of the only ones in these spaces, but if I see one--if I see somebody that looks like me but maybe is, like, I don't know, my dad's age, I'm like, "Oh, snap, what's going on?" And they don't say anything back to me or they kind of give me some, you know, guarded response, I go--now, outside I'm smiling, but on the inside I'm like [damn, damn, damn sfx] You know what I'm saying? Just, like, what's going on?Jacinta: Yeah, and that's--and I wonder too, like, how many times are we, in these leadership roles and scared, you know, to--'cause I know I've walked in meetings, and this is me jokingly, like, you know, if there are more than three of us gathered, I'm gonna make an announcement. [laughs]Zach: What you gonna announce?Jacinta: Like, if we're at work and I walk in a meeting and there's three of us, I'm like, "Oh, we're meeting." You know, "This is happening." You know, I'm excited about it, but I do think there's definitely a category of people who are kind of working in fear, but part of that is just--like we were talking about earlier, knowing your voice, feeling confident and being able to use your voice, and that's part of it. Like, you're just at a place where you don't feel like it's safe enough for you to even have a voice.Netta: Right. I mean, I've even had people say to me they've been nervous to connect with, you know, another black or brown person in the workspace because they didn't want others to feel like they were trying to take over, right? So it would be--like, they would do a little silent text, like, "Meet me outside," and I'm like, "What?" You know? And so that happens a lot too. Zach: No, it does, and I think--how much of that, I wonder, is, like, also generational though? 'Cause, like, it gets to a certain point--and what excites me about Dipper and what I'm hearing is it kind of, like, removes the excuse of white gaze, right? Like, I'm not--white GAZE. G-A-Z-E, y'all. Gaze, you know what I'm saying? White gaze. Yeah, so just the idea of, you know, you needing to kind of, like, be performative in some way or hide a part of who you are, right? Because, you know, come on. Like, really? I mean, you know, we was kings and stuff, but I'm saying, like, two of us can't take over an entire Fortune 50 company. Like, come on now. Like, I should be able to have a conversation with you in the elevator without, you know, y'all thinking we plotting the revolution, right? Stokely Carmichael is not in here. Huey P. Newton is not here.Jacinta: I'm also like, "So what if we are?" [all laugh]Zach: I'm saying. I'm looking back at them like [Cardi B hehe sfx], you know what I'm saying?Jacinta: Because some of it is part--you know, what I think I have kind of lived by in the workplace is if I'm exceeding my performance metrics, if I am busting my tail to, like, meet goals, is there really a boundary? I mean, if I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, is there a boundary? Now, sometimes there are hurdles for you being able to successfully do what you're doing, and that needs to be addressed, but, you know, I think if you have a team full of people who are brown, but they're the top team in the company, nobody--people see green, you know? And nobody is going to say anything. I think the problem is when there's a board seat available, people see their friends in their immediate network, and those people all look alike, and so it's like, "How do we get into that flow?" And really we have to do it working together, you know? It can't just be the one person. It really is going to take a lot of us working together. 'Cause who's gonna tell you--like, wh's gonna give you the heads up that, like, "Oh, I know that's your salary, but every other president in the company is making five times that." [laughs] You know? Like, you're going to need those types of insights, and sometimes you're not going to know that if you don't have [?]--Netta: [? drive that?].Jacinta: Yeah, exactly. Zach: So let's talk a little about 2020, right? Like, what are y'all most excited about that Dipper is gonna be doing, like, in 2020? Like, what has y'all, like, really going?Jacinta: Mm-hmm. For me, because I love tech and I love data, that's what I think about almost every night, and I think in 2020 our product is really going to evolve. You know, right now we have the ability to go onto our site, write a review, share their experience, and in 2020 it'll be even so much greater and so much more, and that is something that really excites me about what's to come. You know, the more people who are joining our community, the more in-depth we can make that community experience, and the things that we want to do to provide people with insights on, you know, like we said, salary, available jobs, are just really exciting to me, and all of that data and information that people will have at their fingertips just makes me really looking forward to the new year.Zach: So this has been a dope conversation and we appreciate both of y'all being here. Again, you know what I'm saying, shout-out to everything that y'all are doing. Shout-out to Dipper, you know what I'm saying? I really enjoyed this conversation. I've enjoyed the soundbites. Have y'all enjoyed the soundbites? I've enjoyed my own soundbites - have y'all enjoyed the soundbites?Netta: Yes.Jacinta: Absolutely.Zach: Okay, great. You know what we haven't done, you know what I'm saying, we have not really given y'all the respect of, you know, these air horns, so Sound Man, go ahead and put these air horns right HERE. [air horns sfx] You know, it's just a compliment. It's a thing that we do. It's customary, you know what I mean? It's been over--it's almost, like, two years, and we've been playing these air horns for the good guests. Now, we haven't had any bad guests, but I'm just saying, sometimes we play the air horns just a little bit louder, you know what I mean? And y'all are on the louder side, so we appreciate y'all. Before we go, any shout-outs or parting words?Netta: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, thank you so much for having us on this platform. This was awesome. We're really excited about, you know, the partnerships, the meaningful relationships that we're creating, you know, with different organizations, and we're really excited about our full dynamic platform that's gonna be revealed to the world. This is truly gonna be game-changing and helpful for people of color that are really looking to be guided in the right direction.Jacinta: Absolutely, and I mirror that sentiment exactly. We're so thankful for this opportunity and to be able to speak with you and your audience, and, you know, really just shout-out everybody, all of you who have left a review, who have sent us your feedback and cheering us on, patting us on the back, and even those of you that have challenged us--and maybe even shaded us a little bit--you know, it's all fuel.Zach: Big up to our haters one time.Jacinta: [laughs] We love it, yeah. You can't live without 'em, and, you know, it's been an amazing ride, and it's just the beginning, and, you know, we're just incredibly thankful.Zach: Well, first of all, look, we appreciate y'all. And look, y'all, if you're listening to this--I want everybody to stop, okay? If you're in your car, you know what I'm saying, pull over to the side of the road, okay? Put your hazards on and go to ourdipper.com. This is not even an ad. It's just for the love, you know what I mean? Like, y'all didn't pay us nothing, you know what I mean? It's just off the muscle. So go to ourdipper.com. And you go ahead and just scroll down, you know what I mean, and at the bottom what you're gonna see is--it's gonna say "Need advice? Please take a few moments to provide some insights about your current workplace and experience." Now, look, some of y'all know that Kathy in accounting has been getting on your nerves, okay? Some of y'all know y'all ain't been getting that raise that you need, and some of y'all know you're not having a great experience. Take the time. Go on ourdipper.com. Provide the input. You're not only helping yourself, you're helping everybody that looks like you. And maybe some folks that don't look like you, you know what I'm saying? But lift as you climb. Okay, now, look, this has been a dope episode. Y'all know you've been listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out anywhere on LivingCorporate--we're on all the platforms. iHeartRadio, Spotify, Soundcloud, YouTube, you know, Pandora. What's another streaming--Google Play, you know what I'm saying? We out here is my point. We active, you know what I mean? Jacinta, 'cause you said you were an [fraternity/sorority], right? [all laugh] We active, you know what I'm saying? You know, we ain't just show up on Homecoming Week, you know what I'm saying, giving people problems. Like, we actually--Jacinta: No t-shirt wearing. [laughs]Zach: Exactly. We're not no [?], you know what I'm saying? We earned ours, you know what I'm saying? We went through the [?]. Don't play with us. [both laugh] So the point is, you know, we appreciate y'all. Check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. If you have any questions you want to email us, you know what I'm saying, livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also just DM us if you have any questions and you want to shout us out. If you want us to shout somebody out for y'all, hit us up. Let's see. Website? Living-corporate--please say the dash--dot com. Now, you also could do livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We've got all of the livingcorporates, y'all... we don't have livingcorporate.com, though. Not yet. Not yet.Jacinta: Soon come.Zach: Soon come, hey. [both laugh] Let's see here. That's it. You've been listening to Zach, and of course you've been listening to Netta and Jacinta, co-founders and movers and shakers of Dipper and Edge Snatchers. Peace.

Zach sits down with Nigel Stephens, the director of government relations for Accenture Federal Services, to discuss the mixing of politics and work. Nigel breaks down the real definitions of economics and politics and details his role as the primary liaison with members of Congress and policy makers for AFS.Connect with SCORE on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTube, Pinterest, iTunesSearch open positions at Accenture.com!Check out Accenture's Inclusion and Diversity Index!Connect with Accenture Federal Services on the following platforms: LinkedIn, TwitterConnect with Accenture on the following platforms: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, Facebook, YouTubeTRANSCRIPTZach: Nigel, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Nigel: I am doing well. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate the invitation.Zach: I appreciate you being here. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a little bit about yourself?Nigel: Well, I'm a bit of a local in the Washington, D.C. area. I was actually born in Jamaica, but my family came here in the '80s. I grew up in Maryland and still reside in Maryland. I'm in Prince George’s County. I've been involved in political campaigns since I was a child. My parents were very active in the community. My mother was a teacher at Montgomery College for decades, and my dad was an entrepreneur. He was an accountant and ran his business out of our basement for a number of years. So he was very active in the community, and that was just a part of my upbringing. So part of this discussion about being in government relations, I've been in government or government relations as a professional for over 20 years.Zach: Wow.Nigel: Yeah, and I--you know, I love politics, and I love the role of government as it plays a role in everyone's life. The negotiations--there's an old saying--the negotiations of and maneuvering of politics dictates almost every aspect of your life, whether you like it or not, from the safety and quality of the food you eat and the air you breathe to the education you receive, to whether or not your favorite sports team gets the stadium or not, you know? Negotiations in politics controls all of that. It determines all of that. When I was a senior in high school, I was blessed enough to get an internship with Senator Ted Kennedy from Massachusetts, the Lion of the Senate, and it was there that I really got an education and learned the real definition of the terms "economics" and "politics," right? Economics is the distribution of scarce resources, and politics is simply the method by which we determine who gets what, when, and how. So once learning that I fell in love with the place, and I have never left Capitol Hill since. I've worked in it, on it, or related to it every way I possibly could since that time.Zach: And you know what? It's that profile, Nigel, why we're so excited to talk to you today, 'cause as you know, we're talking about politics at work, and I'm excited to talk to you today because in a large sense, I mean, really, politics is your work. Can you talk a little bit about your role as Accenture's primary liaison with members of Congress and policy makers? Like, what does that--what does that mean?Nigel: For me, I lead Accenture Federal Services' government relations team. So I am an advocate for all of the work that we do for the federal government as a client. I really like that, 'cause it's my way of giving back while still having a professional career. I mean, when I'm doing--when I'm having conversations with new joiners, I really try to get them to keep things in perspective of what they do, whether you're a technologist, you're a coder, you're a strategist, whatever it is. What is the big picture of what you're doing? I mean, we provide services to clients and help individuals get their student loans processed. Healthcare. You know, all of those types of meaningful things that make a real difference in real people's lives, and my direct role in government relations really falls into four categories. Strategic advisor, facilitator, translator, and educator. So I provide the strategic advice based on what's happening with authorizations and appropriations and funding of programs to my business team so they can provide better service to their clients. A facilitator to try to promote communication and coordination between the private sector and industry and the government. As a translator, I--so I'm not a lawyer. I went to business school, so I was trained in--I went and got an MBA, so I was trained in that. Communicating and translating the thoughts and intents of business to the government, to legislators, and vice versa, and then finally is educator. There's a lot of--any given day, members and their staff are dealing with hundreds of different issues, and they can't be subject matter experts in every single one. So part of my responsibility--I think the largest part of my responsibility is really serving as an educator to those on the Hill about what the art of the possible is, about what's happening in the private sector, about what industry is doing, about what new things are happening in technology and how that innovation can really help them meet their real core goal, which is providing service to citizens.Zach: Nigel, now, you know what I love? Is that you out here just--you casually, casually dropping bombs, right? Right? Like, I got to give you the [Flex bomb sfx]. I got to give you the Flex bomb. It's crazy. I mean, my goodness gracious. Okay, that's dope.Nigel: Did you for real just drop the Funkmaster Flex bomb?Zach: I did. I got a whole soundboard over here, man. I be like [haha sfx], you know? Nigel: [?] You're doing it.Zach: I got all kinds of stuff over here, man, but look, I really appreciate the answer. It leads me to the next question. Now, has there ever been a situation where your own life experience has shaped how you approach a policy discussion? Like, how do you decide when and where you, you know, flex and let people know, "Hey, actually, I know what I'm talking about," versus where you decide to kind of lean back and let things play a little bit.Nigel: Take it to a bigger picture. It's not so much on a specific policy area, but for my life experience, I think the lesson would be to be vigilant about building your skills and have confidence in your abilities. When I was starting out my career, there were your veteran rock star African-American lobbyists, right? Your Vernon Jordans. Your Toni Cook Bushs. Your Ben Johnsons. They were another upper echelon of influence, but there weren't that many at just the general corporate level, right? Even more, there wasn't really a clear path to where I wanted to go, which is at that corporate level. So I had to really build a diverse set of skills. You know, whether it be political management, financial management, an MBA, where do I get the diverse skills that I'm going to need to piece together to be effective in the role that I want to get to, and then have confidence that I'm building the capabilities to bring my best self to the table? Now, applying that to the policy realm, you know, Accenture's about technology and innovation, right? How is tech being used and how can it be leveraged in the federal government, and how can those best practices in the commercial sector be applied in the federal government to help them bring those services to citizens more effectively? And then even more, in our current atmosphere, at a cheaper price. Now, in government they may not always see the vision, right? They may not be on the tip of the spear of innovation, and unfortunately sometimes inertia and, you know, "We've always done it this way," "This is the safest way of doing it," can be the worst enemy to progress, regardless of how much that progress is needed or regardless of the benefits that could occur, right? But we have to be vigilant as policy makers and as a company trying to provide services to the policy makers. You've got to be vigilant about building those skills and capabilities. You know, what's that new--is it AI? Automation? Machine learning? Is it migrating things to the cloud? Is it ERP systems? What are those innovative things that are happening in the commercial sector? Building those skills and capabilities, and then also being confident in that what we're offering to the client is in the best interest of the client.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, again, it's almost like--it's almost like, you know, you've been doing this for two decades, Nigel. [both laugh] I would imagine that your role demands a certain level of intellectual [?]. You have to know what you're talking about when you're coming in and you're advocating for the services that Accenture provides, but also at the same time a certain level of emotional and social intelligence in actually--in how you actually engage those topics with your audience. Can you talk a little bit about the role that emotional and social intelligence play practically in your role day-to-day?Nigel: Yeah. There's always the requirement of learning, lifelong learning. You've got to be committed to it, right? I was telling some colleagues the other day that my kitchen table is covered with books that I never felt my kitchen table would be covered with, about AI and coding and automation and those kinds of things, because I have to really understand the subject matter even though we have subject matter experts that will be exponentially smarter in these things than I ever will be, right? They live it, but for me with the emotional and the social intelligence, you know, as a lobbyist, I always try to keep in mind that elected officials and their staff are always primarily focused on outcomes. They're always focused on meeting the needs of the real people that they represent, right? We may not agree on all of the politics, we may not agree on all of the policy, but I have to keep in mind that your whole purpose of being there, working these long hours for the pay that you get, is because you care about the constituents that you're representing and you're really trying to make a difference for them. So keeping that awareness is, you know, essentially keeping things in perspective, even during the most heated policy debate, right? And then essentially a part of my job is--the main requirement is to pay attention to the nuances of government, you know, and the people in the government, and you can't fake that, right? It's not what you necessarily see on television every day, right? That's the upfront, you know, constant barrage of social media and the 24-hour news cycle. There's a lot of nuance [in] those individuals, what they're working on, what they're passionate about, and how you're gonna play a role in all of that, and you really have to pay attention to that.Zach: Expand a little bit about that. When you say, like, the upfront, like, what do you mean by that?Nigel: Well, there's the stuff that you--that professionals report on, right? That's the high-level news that you see, but at any given time when I walk into an office, a member or a staffer is dealing with a number of different personal and professional issues. You have to look at a staffer--when I was on the House side I was working for a congressman from Maryland, Congressman Albert Wynn. My portfolio included environment, health care, education, transportation, small business, and telecommunications, and I was also the staffer for the Minority Business Task Force for the Congressional Black Caucus. Now, at any given time, I was dealing with issues from, you know, building roads on one side, and then that meeting would end, and I would quickly have to transfer over to satellite communication technology, right? That discussion--you have to keep in mind that these are human beings that are working long hours and that their minds are focused on all of these different things, so having that type of--that emotional intelligence for the challenge that they're facing every single day allows you to approach the conversation in a certain way so it's the most effective use of their time and yours and you can actually make a difference.Zach: Nigel, you're a political relationship subject matter expert, so you know the difference between good and bad, quote unquote, politics, right? Can you give us some examples? And I kind of want to--I want to really take your insight and experience in Capitol Hill and talk about office politics a little bit, 'cause I know you've seen it. You've seen it all, right? 'Cause you don't just--you don't just live in Capitol Hill, you also have to go into the office, you have to--you know what I'm saying? Like, you flex between a variety of different environments, right? So can you give us some examples of, like, tacky office politics and things that all employees, but especially employees of color, should avoid?Nigel: Okay. Well, there's an old adage in government relations and lobbying that "there are no permanent friends or permanent enemies, only permanent interests." And instead of "enemies," "permanent opponents, only permanent interests." And you also have to keep in mind "What is your permanent interest, and does getting involved in petty office politics help your movement towards your interest, or is it creating unnecessary risk?" Right? The shorter version of that is "Keep your eyes on the prize." I would strongly recommend--my personal opinion is don't get involved with that, office politics, because the deck chairs are always gonna shift, right? The only consistent thing in life and in business is change, so there are always gonna be people spending a disproportionate amount of their time worrying about those types of things. I try my best to avoid it. I recommend that people try their best to avoid it. Maintain positive and, even more so, positive and strategic relationships, and focus on delivering your best every single day. You do that and then, you know, the other stuff will play itself out, and often times, you know, you're in a steady state, you will find that you will actually progress moving forward in a straight line, in a linear fashion, versus, you know, losing your focus and getting engaged in other things that aren't gonna help you.Zach: So let's shift gears a little bit. You know, you serve on the board of directors of SCORE, a non-profit organization and national partner to the U.S. Small Business Administration dedicated to entrepreneur education and the formation, growth, and success of small business nationwide. What was your reason for engaging in this space? And at the board level, right? There's plenty of things that you could be doing, Nigel, with your time and with your various talents. What was it about this space that got your attention and your passion? Nigel: Well, I have a long history with small business. As I mentioned before, you know, my dad ran his business out of our basement for years, right? So I've seen--I've got a number of family members that are entrepreneurs and small business owners, and so I've witnessed first-hand the impact small businesses have, not only on a household but on a community in general, right? The positive impact that that can have. I said before, when I was on the Hill, on the House side, the first time I was the staffer for the Minority Business Task Force for the Congressional Black Caucus. When I sent to the Senate to work for Senator Carey on the Senate Small Business Committee, you know, I was working on policy issues that would promote and advance the cause of small businesses and entrepreneurs, and SCORE was one of those organizations that I worked very closely with as a Hill staffer. And then when I got the opportunity to join the board I jumped at it. I mean, these organizations--this is an organization of 11,000 volunteers that are former executives. So these are retired corporate executives and former entrepreneurs themselves who are willing to share their wisdom FOR FREE. Let's say that again. FOR FREE.Zach: For free.Nigel: For free. So if anyone is listening, and you're running a business now or you're interested in starting a business and being an entrepreneur, I strongly encourage you to reach out to SCORE. [straight up sfx] I strongly encourage it. It is a wonderful opportunity. But at the board level, I think I get an opportunity to really provide strategic advice and guide the organization in a way that I can make a difference. The decisions I'm making now and the input that I'm providing now is gonna lead the organization into the future 10, 20 years from now, right? So what are they doing with regards to investments in the organization and building it out, and what are they doing with regards to reaching out to diverse communities and reaching out to the new generation of entrepreneurs, which may be your millennial-aged individuals. What does that mean? What does that mean for women and minorities who are disproportionately creating new businesses faster than other communities? Like, how are we serving all of those communities in such a way that it's really making a difference? And these guys are serving everyone from Mom and Pop sandwich shops all the way up to your innovative technology companies. So how can we help--how can I help play a role in that organization doing its best to reach all communities?Zach: Well, that's incredible. You know, what I think is really powerful about you being in that position is, as we know, there are systemic and structural challenges that come with economic self-empowerment and advancement and really participating on these stages--and when I say we I mean, like, black and brown folks in these spaces--so you having that insight and giving your point of view in how--not just your point of view, but your strategic wisdom I believe is very much so invaluable, so that's powerful. Because a lot of this stuff, like, we don't really know--a lot of us don't really know where to start, right? It's not--it isn't, you know, your grandfather's space anymore, you know? It's more complex. There are different hurdles to jump and spaces to navigate. So that's really incredible. This has been an amazing conversation. Before we let you go--Nigel: Thank you.Zach: Yeah, nah. Hey, I appreciate you. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Nigel: Well, I just want to thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate the invitation, and I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. It's really made me think about, you know, the context of what I do and what--there are a number of others in the Washington, D.C. metro area that are making a real difference in the lives of individuals and really in what governments are doing and what industry is doing and what our overall community is doing. So I thank you for the platform. I really appreciate the invitation, and I look forward to having many more conversations.Zach: I look forward to it too, Nigel. Man, look, we definitely consider you a friend of the show. We can't wait to have you back. Now, look, Nigel, I don't know how much of the Living Corporate podcast you've listened to, but every now and then we've got to drop some air horns, okay? So I gotta put 'em in here right... here. [air horns sfx]Nigel: There we go.Zach: I'm saying. I just got to it. And I hope it's not culturally insensitive. I recognize [you/your family are] from Jamaica. I love air horns.Nigel: I love it.Zach: All right, cool. [laughs]Nigel: I love it. [laughs]Zach: Well, all right. Nigel, 'til next time, we'll catch up, man. I appreciate you. Nigel: Thank you very much. Have a great day.Zach: Peace.

Zach sits down with Nap Bar founder Khaliah Guillory to discuss the concept of being well-rested at work. They also talk about the genesis of the Nap Bar and the workforce of the future. Additionally, Khaliah shares a few interesting statistics relating to the topic.Check out the Nap Bar! Connect with them on their socials here: LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookConnect with Khaliah on a variety of platforms! LinkedIn, Twitter, IG, FacebookRead the WSJ article mentioned on the show!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate. Now, look, check it out. Y'all know how we do, okay? We have real talk in a corporate world. We try to center the experiences of black and brown voices and identities in the workplace, and we do that by talking about evergreen topics, but we just want to make sure that we're talking about them from a non-white point of view. So that's where you got me, you got Ade, and of course you have our guests, and who would we be if we didn't have a great guest today like we always do? Khaliah Guillory. Khaliah, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Khaliah: Yo. What's going on, Zach? Thank you so much for having me on. I'm absolutely honored to be here with the Living Corporate crew. Thank you for the invite.Zach: Oh, no, no, no. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Khaliah: Sure. So I am a lover of humanity. Love me some people. I love to connect with people. I love '80s music. I have it on rotation, in the catalog, on a regular basis. I am absolutely obsessed with sunglasses, watches, and socks. If I could get away with just wearing that all day, especially in Houston in the middle of summer, I would. Zach: Wait a minute. Hold up now. [sound effect]Khaliah: Oh, we're gonna have so much fun. And I--you know, that's what I do, and I always like to lead with who I am from a personality standpoint. And the meaning of my name means Chosen One, because that ties into what I do. I think sometimes and often times we get caught up into what we do and we think that's who we are, but if we don't lead with who we are, then how can we really be able to connect the dots to understand what we do? So, like, I mentioned my name is Khaliah Oni Guillory, and that means "The Chosen One," and I have chosen to transition from a C-level executive position at a Fortune 500 company as of November 18th of 2018 to really solve the 411 billion--yeah, I said a b--billion dollar U.S. economic loss that the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation. Zach, just guess how many days that was. If you equated--I know you've got a consultant brain, so if you can quantify how many days--working days that is--how many would you guess it was?Zach: You said 400 billion?Khaliah: Uh-huh, with a b.Zach: Hours?Khaliah: Days.Zach: Days.Khaliah: How many days?Zach: I don't know. Like, maybe 7--500. 700. 700's my final answer.Khaliah: Try 1.2 million. 1.2 million days Americans called off because they were tired and they were sleep deprivedZach: Now, look here, y'all, I don't want y'all judging me for that terrible math, okay? I'm a change management consultant. I have Excel and other tools to help do the math for me, and--Khaliah: You've gotta use your tools. You've gotta use your tools.Zach: You know, 'cause you asked me on the spot. I kind of halfway understood the question. I'm excited. You know, I've got all the energy around me. Y'all don't be judging me. Sound Man, keep this in. Don't this edit either. I want y'all to see me in my--you know what I'm saying, my vulnerability, okay?Khaliah: Listen, that's what it's about, man. That's what it's about, but look, you jumped out there. You were close.Zach: I was not at all close. I said 700, and I didn't understand the question. You looking at me talking about [sound effect]. I'm like--you said 1.3 milly.Khaliah: 1.2. Zach: Oh, my goodness. And see, I'm wrong again. But anyway--Khaliah: It was probably 700 in a small town like Sugarland. Boom. See? See how we just changed the narrative? You've just gotta change that narrative.Zach: Okay. So okay, look, all the jokes aside, give us the stat again. Give us the stat again.Khaliah: $411 billion is the total amount the U.S. suffered due to sleep deprivation for economic loss. So from an economic loss, the U.S. lost $411 billion due to sleep deprivation, and that equated to 1.2 million working days that Americans called off because they were tired. Zach: Wow.Khaliah: So we can peel the onion back a little bit more. I'm doing the air quotes. Remember when it was "on trend" to take mental health days? And it probably still is. I was one of those people that took--I said, "Man, this is smart. Once a month [?], and it's a mental health day, and I'ma do whatever I want to do, and basically what that meant is that I slept all day because I was exhausted. I was working 80 hours a week, and that was the one day of the month that I gave myself permission to actually rest, which is the craziest thing in the world because we should be able to rest every single day.Zach: Absolutely. And so--so then let's talk about that. So that's your passion, right, and I think it's a really--just a really good segue into our topic for the day, right? Our topic is wellness, and specifically this time the topic is around the concept of being well-rested. And considering your passion and the research that you've done around the lack of restfulness that we have in American culture, you know, what have you been doing with that passion? I know you haven't just been crunching numbers. Like, what have you done? Like, what's the--what's been the output of you doing this research? And, like, what are you--you talked about the fact that you're passionate about solving this problem. What are you doing to solve it?Khaliah: Yeah, man. So it's this thing called Nap Bar. It's the first white-glove napping experience in Texas that offers on-site and in-suite napping services for communities that we serve. And so this really came about April of last year. The wife and I were both--she's still in corporate, but I was in corporate at the time, and we both had and still have side hustles. I changed my side hustle to my main hustle. She still has a side hustle, but if we can, we would carpool into the city, and this particular day we had about an hour and a half to kill between our meetings, and I looked at her and I was like, "Man, this is my nap time," because I'm an avid napper. I nap in my car on a regular basis, and my nap was kind of--it was gonna be a little strange. So she looked at me and was like, "Why don't you Google "naps in Houston?" It's Houston. There's got to be a place where you can pop in and take a nap." I was like, "You know what? You're right. That's dope. I'm sure there's a place." A two-minute-later search? Zero. Zilch. Nada. And I looked at her, like, in disbelief, like, "How is it this is the fourth-largest country in the world, and we're the most innovative--one of the most innovative cities--" I said countries. "The fourth-largest city in the country, and we're one of the most innovative cities, hence we've got this Innovation Corridor that's being curated, but yeah, we don't have a place for people to rest? Wow." And she looked at me and was like, "Well, why don't you create it?" And I was like, "Yeah, okay." So the next day I go to Facebook, 'cause that's what you do. You go to Facebook and you ask your friends. I created a poll and I was like, "Yo, how many people out there napping during the day? Like, in your car or in an unused conference room or, heck, in, like, the--just wherever you can find some peace and quiet," and 99% of my friends, who are a hodgepodge of professionals, entrepreneurs, stay-at-home parents, these cats admitted to napping at work.Zach: Oh, yeah. At work?Khaliah: At work, and I was like, "Boy, they're savages." The savagery is real. So then I was like, "Okay, that's just my scope," right? "That's my lens." So then I started doing more research, and I tell you, Zach, I just kept going and going and going, and I found [?] sleep. There's a sleep foundation that does a ton of research of sleep, and 52% of Americans surveyed--like, 10,000 cats were surveyed last year, and they admitted--52% of them admitted to napping at work. Now, imagine how many people who were napping, but they just was like--Zach: Oh, yeah. You know they're lying.Khaliah: "Yeah, I'm not admitting this. They're gonna find out and they're gonna come get me and fire me." Like, imagine. So then I just continued to do my research, and then I stumbled upon--the CDC had a stat out there talking about, you know, driving drowsy is equivalent to driving under the influence. So I just kept going and going and going. I was like, "Okay, clearly I'm not just solving a problem. I'm solving the root of a problem with Nap Bar."Zach: You are, and you know what? You know, it's wild because, like you said, there's a stigma against, like, even talking about the fact that you might be sleepy, right? You know, you're over here thinking like--you know what I'm saying? You don't want them--you know, you turn around, [and] you slip out in a moment of weakness that you--you know, you might take a nap from time to time, and then you've got the [sound effect]. You know, they're coming for you. And it's just--it's wild though, because I also think really honestly--like, shout-out to you, because really believe it or not--and I'm sure you already know this--like, you're actually pushing against, like, the capitalistic, like, culture and, like, foundation that we work on, because part of just this work-centric culture that we have is just pushing your body until you break, right? Like--Khaliah: Yeah. And you know what's odd about that? Like, this is Living Corporate, so I'm sure people will get this line I'm about to say, but it combats everything--the fabric of people's culture, corporations' culture that they say that they do, and I'll give you an example. Corporate social responsibilities. How many--if you Google that word, and you Google--or you do a Ctrl+F and find how many times they put "people-centric approach" and how their employees mean the world to them, but if they really adopted a people-centric approach, well, then why are people being criticized for taking PTO? And why are people getting down to the last week of the year and they have a whole month of vacation that's unused and they're gonna end up losing it because they can't roll over but 10 days to the next year? Like, if we really, truly took a step back in our culture as a whole, as a society, then why aren't we pushing the envelope back on that? And that's exactly what I'm out to do. I'm out to be that little voice that's gonna be loud and obnoxious and ferocious so that we can pivot and transition into a true, true-true-true holistic approach to the meaning of living. There shouldn't be a reason why I don't enjoy going into work, and there shouldn't be a reason why studies show that the first four hours of Mondays are the most unproductive, because people have the Sunday blues. They think about what they have to do on Monday and then they check out, [then?] they end up staying out too much late on Sunday Funday.Zach: There was an article that just released on The Wall Street Journal about that that said, like, Sundays are the new Mondays, right? It's, like, basically the anxiety of--we'll make sure to put that in the show notes too, but, like, the anxiety of your work week, it, like, bleeds over into your Sunday to the point where you can't even enjoy Sunday anymore. And I'll just be transparent that, like, typically for me Sundays are like--are really like a mini-work day, 'cause I'm prepping for the week, right?Khaliah: Yeah, right, and that shouldn't be the case. You should be able to--you should be able to prep for your work week while you're at work. And I get it, we gotta get ahead and we have to do what we need to do, but it would be so much sweeter if you were prepping on a Sunday for your work week but if you knew on Monday you would be able to get that time back because your employee, or your employer I should say, included in your employees benefit package a health and wellness that includes a nap every single day for 26 minutes, and it's up to you to decide if you want it or not.Zach: Straight up. You're absolutely right, and it's so funny, right? Because, you know, companies are--companies right now, like, if you notice, like, in the conversation of work-life balance--and this has been--like, this discussion has been happening for, I don't know, like, the past six or seven years, but it's, like, transitioning from work-life balance to, like, work-life blend or work-life optimization or work-life harmony, and, like, really what they're trying to do is, like, just have your life be more and more just about work, right? Like, you're having a good time, but you're working. Like, "Hey, we want you to have a good time as you--you know, as you work." [both laugh] You know, "We want you to take care of your family and, you know, shoot, go on vacation, you know? [?]"Khaliah: Yeah, but, like--but even think about that too, Zach. Like, I remember going on vacation, and going on vacation for a week was, like, death the next week when you got back to work because you had--you're in email jail. You can't even send any emails because your mailbox is full, and then you don't even want to consider checking your voicemail because you're already getting those stomach-aches thinking about all that you are so behind on. Now you're regretting taking your vacation, which you earned. Like, we've got to reposition and reverse engineer our thought process around how we work. Like, there's a thing called intentional work, and there's some innovative companies that are doing it just right now. You know, you've got the Googles of the world that have napping pods. You've got Ariana Huffington, who nearly died because she passed out and hit her--like, passed out and hit her head on her desk due to sleep deprivation. So you have these advocates, but then we're still so far behind the 8-ball on how do we really truly pivot. And then, you know, it's funny because I had a call, a conference call, with a Fortune 5 company before this call, and I was telling them like, "Hey, we've got to get Nap Bar on site." I've got this calculation I walked them through, and it showed that annualized nationwide, based on 3,300 employees, they are losing $16.5 million of unproductive loss of work per employee. So that's the total roll-up per employee. That's how I got that number. And they're sitting here saying, "Well, I don't know how we can afford to get the nap [zone?]." I'm like, "Did you not just hear me?"Zach: Nah, you can't afford not to have these nap [zones?]. And wait a minute. And you said--hold on, now, 'cause you're not gonna just slide past that. You said you were on a phone call before this interview with a Fortune 500 company?Khaliah: I mean, listen, I'm out here taking my shots, man. I'm out here taking my shots.Zach: I see you.Khaliah: I'm out here taking my shots. 'Cause, you know, you get this. It's just--it's just basic math. I just need one person to say yes, you know, and then my demand is gonna outpace my supply, and then I can add another zero, and then another zero, and then another zero.Zach: I'm saying. Listen, I'm right there with you, okay? You're preaching to the choir. I just wanted to make sure that the people heard what you said, 'cause I heard you, okay? [both laugh] Okay, okay, okay. So check this out. We've been talking around this a bit, right, but, like, workplace pressure, like, it's real for everybody, and it's even more real for people in America and of course abroad who are in an ethnic minority and may be battling impostor syndrome, even harder than those who feel the need to prove themselves. And to be clear, like, I'm them. I'm people. But the reality is if you're not getting rest, you won't be good to anybody. So even if--so let's just say this, right? So, like, even if taking a nap is not immediately possible for some of the folks who are listening to this podcast episode right now, what advice would you give to professionals of color to practice restfulness in those 10- or 11-hour work days?Khaliah: You know, I think the biggest piece is we have to be the change that we want to see in the workplace. So it's vocalizing, being an advocate for rest in the workplace. There is a ton of research. People can hit me up. They can email me. I will gladly send over what I've collected. I'm in the middle of a business case with another company here in Houston that's gonna really result some telling data. It's almost gonna slap people in the face if they say "No, we don't want to give our people naps at work." I mean, this business case is gonna be--it's constructed in such a way to where it's gonna be hard for people to say no, but I would say how I got to this business case and a collaboration with this particular organization is because an employee, who had only been there for 3 months, a minority man--he was in his 1-on-1 with his manager and his manager said, "Hey, how has the past three months going?" And he said, "Man, it's been quite an adjustment, coming from college to the corporate world, and I'm working 60, 70 hours a week, and, you know, it's been quite an adjustment. I wish there was a time I could just, you know, take a nap." And his manager said--well, I'll say he wasn't a manager, because this was a leader comment. You know, managers manage people. Leaders lead. And this leader said to him--after he said that he said, "Hm. Well, why don't we discuss that on your next 1-on-1? Do some research, and let's talk about it next week." And so he did, and I had a meeting with him two days ago. What's today. Today's Tuesday? I had a meeting with him yesterday to button up the business case and the pilot. So I think the biggest advice I could give is just real life experience that I just experienced just as early as yesterday is we have to be vocal about what we want. And of course we have to be professional in the way that we deliver it, and I always--when I worked in corporate I always prided myself--when I presented a problem, it's to have the solution in my back pocket. So when my leader said, "Hey, okay, well, how are you gonna solve it? Boom, here it is, and here's all the research," right? And, you know, that's why I can say I have 10,000+ hours of research. Malcolm Gladwell says if you--if you want to call yourself a subject matter expert, you have to have at minimum 10,000 hours of research in your respective field. So when I said--as I mentioned, like, I can rattle off stats from here between here and Tokyo, where they do have napping pods, but I don't have to because I think we are as a society, when people hear the word "rest" and "nap at work" they'd initially be like, "Oh, my God. That would be awesome," but then they'd immediately think, "Well, is that gonna hold me back? Am I not gonna get up for a promotion because I'm taking a nap at work?" No. That's a shift that me and my team will come in, because it's more than just a nap. It's an experience. But on the flip side of it, we educate on why--what are the indicators for sleep deprivation. So going back to your original question, Zach, we just have to be more vocal about what we want. We need to present a--not just a problem, but also a solution, and not be afraid to get creative with it.Zach: Okay. Now, listen here, y'all. Y'all heard it straight here from Khaliah, A.K.A. KG Speaks, A.K.A. [?], A.K.A. Your Favorite Sock Wearer, okay? I'm gonna give you that Flex bomb right here. You know what I'm saying? Okay, no, you're absolutely right. In that story though--it's interesting. So you said a black man. Did he have a--was the boss a white dude? Khaliah: I don't know the ethnicity of the leader, but no, the employee, he wasn't black. He was a minority. He was an Asian-Pacific Islander. Zach: Yo. Shout-out to the--man, listen here, shout-out to the Asian-Pacific Islander, the person of color raising his voice, and just to keep a bean with you, I need to go ahead and have that leader on this--on Living Corporate too, 'cause I'm kind of shocked that he turned around and said, "Well, do some research," 'cause, I mean, that's not--I don't feel like that's a common experience. That's dope that he did that, and I absolutely believe that we should be speaking up and using your voice. I think that's an incredible story.Khaliah: We need more of that, and that's why I shared it, because we need more of that on both sides of the table. We need more of that from a leadership standpoint and more of that empowerment from an employee standpoint, because--you're right, and not only that, he sent me an email--the employee said, "Hey, it's a go, and my actual--my leader wants to come and check it out too," and I was like, "Please. Let's go. Tell me when and where. Tell me what time." I know where, just tell me when. [laughs]Zach: Boy, 'cause let me tell you--let me tell you just my experience. Khaliah, let me walk up in somewhere and tell my often-times-not-minority boss that I want to take a nap at work. Boy, they'd look at me like [sfx]. It's like, "What?"Khaliah: You are killing it with these sound effects. Like, I want to come over and see, like, what software you're using, 'cause you are killing it. Zach: Man, I be looking--I'm serious though. You just looking at them like [sfx], you know what I'm saying? Khaliah: But you know what's interesting too is that, you know, from a leader standpoint, for the leaders who are listening on the phone and who can even--you know, who can low-key share this with the leaders who perhaps might need to hear this, but here's a stat that perhaps will change people's minds. Millennials will be occupying, by 2025, 75% of the workplace. 75% of the workplace in five years and some change will be occupied by millennials. And what do we know about millennials? Well, out of the survey that I saw, 53% of them stated that they value health and wellness above work, spirituality, and even their friendships. Health and wellness #1 over work, spirituality, and their friends. So if I'm an executive at a corporation, and I know in the next five and a half years that folks I have on my bench right now, that I'm grooming, they don't--they value work, but it's not more than their health and wellness. I need to put in place Nap Bar today so that when they're in the C-Suite in five years we're already advanced into VR. We've got virtual reality going in Nap Bar. I mean, there's so many different things that companies can do today to set them up to win in 2025 when 75% of their workforce will be millennials.Zach: No, you're absolutely right, and, you know--and that's the thing--so as you know, I'm a consultant, and one of the things I've really been passionate about at my job is the workforce of the future, and we're talking about, like, dealing with the workforce of the future. First of all, the workforce of the future is happening--is today, but the idea of the fact that, like, folks will leave--this generation of people, and not even thinking about Gen Z's gonna be doing. I don't know what they--Khaliah: Listen...Zach: Listen. Ayo. My siblings in Gen Z. I be looking at them like I don't know--I'm scared. I'm scared of y'all. Like, y'all--ooh. But, you know, we will leave--Khaliah: They're reckless, but they're courageous with it.Zach: Oh, no. I love it. No, it's not a knock. It's just, like, a "Wow." Like, I'm really--I'm not prepared. [both laugh] But, like, you know, millennials though--and I would venture to say it's gonna be even more so with Gen Z--like, we will quit a job, you know what I'm saying?Khaliah: In a heartbeat. In a heartbeat.Zach: They'd be like, "Hey, Bobby, if you don't stop taking these naps, we're gonna have to let you go." He'd turn around talking about some [sfx]. You know?Khaliah: Yeah, you know why? Because they were already researching on their phone the companies that are innovative and progressive that probably already have nap pods. Zach: Listen, they're gonna be pulling up just like that Indeed commercial that just dropped with that white lady. She got passed over for that job, and--I don't know if you've seen it yet. It's wild. It's crazy. But anyway, she gets passed over for the job, and, you know, everybody's clapping. It's clear that she got passed over for a job. She's over here smirking at her phone. Indeed app already talking about "Interview secured." I said, "Ooh." And I oop. [sfx]Khaliah: That's funny. Now that's funny.Zach: It's super funny, but you're right. You know, it's going to be a critical--you know, it's gonna be a pillar of human capital management, of talent management, this wellness piece, and it can't just be "Hey, you know, you can take time off, but you've got to come work--" No, like, it needs to be explicit, intentional, purposed policies that reinforce true wellness.Khaliah: Totally.Zach: Okay. Now, look, this has been a dope conversation, and you know you've already been a friend of the show, and I didn't even--you know, I didn't even give you your air horns at the top for the dope piece that you wrote back in Season 1 about coming out of the proverbial closet. Man, shout-out to you. [sfx]Khaliah: Aye. [imitating sfx]Zach: You know what I'm saying? Like, we didn't even give you your props at the top. So, you know, again, you're a friend of the show. You're appreciated here. Before we let you go, any parting words or shout-outs?Khaliah: Man, shout-out to the tribe, the folks who show up, the folks who--and here's the thing. People show up. They don't have to show up, so when they do we have to ooze with gratitude for that. So I'm absolutely oozing with gratitude for my tribe for showing up, and not just for showing up, but for also holding me accountable for the likes, for the shares, for the--just the "atta girl"s, I mean, those things matter when you literally jump off the cliff and you have no idea how to open your parachute, but you can trust that your tribe, your network, will catch you before you fall. So shout-out to all of the folks who have ever liked, commented, shared, sent me an encouraging DM. I appreciate you so much, and I'm sending that vibe and that love right back out to you. And for those of you who are sitting on a billion-dollar idea that's gonna solve a trillion-dollar problem, I say "Go." Just go. You're not gonna have it all figured out, but you'll be able to figure it out along the way. And assemble yourself an advisory board team yesterday, because that's gonna be the people who will be in the trenches with you, that will roll up their sleeves with you and fight 'til the end to make sure that--that they believe in not just you, but in your vision.Zach: Come on, now. Khaliah: Yeah, man. That's the motto. That's the motto, man.Zach: I don't even have anything. I just got finger snaps, you know?Khaliah: That's the motto. Like, my legit motto is "Why duplicate mediocrity when we can borrow genius?" So why not surround yourself with genius all around who have access to the things you don't have access to or who have embarked on a journey that you're looking to embark on. Hey, it's the--it's the clear definition of working smarter and not harder.Zach: No, absolutely. Now, of course we're gonna have all of your information in the show notes, but why don't you go ahead and let us know where we can find you, where we can connect with you, where we can learn more about you?Khaliah: Bet. So for Nap Bar-specific, go to www.napbarnow.com. There you can also follow us on Twitter @NapBarNow, Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook we're at NapBarHou, and for anything and all things KOG Speaks, which I am a certified diverse speaker, and I speak on diversity and inclusion, performance, leadership, change management. You can catch all of my work there at www.KOGpassion.com, and then my handles on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook is KOGSpeaks. Zach: Come on, now. Now, look, this has been great, and that does it for us, y'all. So thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Now, please say the dash. Now, look, Khaliah, it's wild because, you know, we own actually all of the Living Corporate variations. So, like, livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.net. We've even got, like, livingcorporate.org. We don't have livingcorporate.com 'cause Australia still has livingcorporate.com. Khaliah: They ain't letting it go. You're not gonna negotiate the 5,000--Zach: I don't know how brolic the brand would need to be for us to walk up to a continent and be like, "Ayo, come off that domain." I don't know, but maybe one day. That's a go. I feel like the day that we can--we can Deebo Australia for our domain, that's the day--Khaliah: That's when you've arrived.Zach: That's when you've arrived.Khaliah: That's the day you've arrived.Zach: Right, I'm saying. Okay, okay. So look, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just DM us on anything, you know what I'm saying? Our DMs are wide open. Like, we're just trying to talk to you, you know what I'm saying? Now, look, this has been Zach, and you have been talking with Khaliah Guillory, okay? Founder and CEO of the Nap Bar. Make sure you check out all of her information. It's gonna be all in the show notes. Do not forget. Listen, I'm talking to y'all right now. Sound Man, stop the music. Listen. I don't want y'all to listen to this and, like, be like, "Oh, okay, here goes Zach with the sign-off again," 'cause see, y'all see I'm flipping it up. This is not, like, an insert. I'm talking live right now, okay? I want y'all to stop, look in the show notes, okay, and click it. I ain't trying to be aggressive with y'all, okay? I'm not trying to do nothing extra, okay? I'm not dangerous, I promise. I'm just telling you, you know what I'm saying, get the information. Make sure you learn about the Nap Bar, especially if you're in Houston, and get yourself some rest. Am I tripping, Khaliah?Khaliah: Nah, not at all, bro. Not at all.Zach: All right. All right, well, dope. Well, look here. Until next time, talk to y'all soon. Love y'all. Peace.Khaliah: Peace.

Zach sits down with Precious Williams of Perfect Pitches by Precious to talk about how to pitch for yourself effectively. They break down the basics of a pitch and discuss what most people get wrong when pitching for themselves.Connect with Precious on LinkedIn or Twitter, and check out her website below!https://perfectpitchesbyprecious.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, look, y'all. Y'all know we have people come through the spot from time to time. We have real conversations about real things, okay? And this episode is no different, okay? We've got Precious Williams with us on the show. Precious Williams is a world-class master communicator who works with successful women entrepreneurs and helps them take their professional speaking skills to the next level. With over 23--count 'em, 2-3, Michael Jordan, LeBron James--years of experience conceptualizing unique branding and marketing techniques, Williams seeks to train individuals and companies on how to remain authentic while marketing concepts and visions to distinctive audiences. Sound Man, you've got to give me a round of applause for that. [he obliges] With that being said--Precious: Oh, let me snap. Snap, snap, snap.Zach: Come on. Come on, snaps. With that being said, Precious, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Precious: I'm good. I'm really good today. I'm living well. I'm living my life like it's golden. "Living my life like it's golden."Zach: Drinking some water?Precious: You know [what?] We do. We drink water all day.Zach: You sound really hydrated right now.Precious: I am hydrated. I'm really hydrated. Come on now.Zach: I can feel it--I can feel it through the ancestral plane.Precious: Okay!Zach: I know I gave a little bit of an intro, but for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?Precious: Yes. My name is Precious Williams, proud founder and CEO of Perfect Pitches by Precious. And again, thank you for saying I'm a world-class master communicator, and it is very true. I've been a professional speaker since I was 16 years old, and this year I turned 40. I've appeared on Shark Tank, CNN, Wall Street Journal, FOX Business News, appeared in movies, I've been in television commercials, and I'm a 13-time National Elevator Pitch champion. So that is how a lot of shows got interested in me in the first place, but before we did all of that, we were--I was an unwanted child living in the inner city of St. Louis, Missouri, and my mother didn't like me and beat me up constantly. My father was a drug addict. And so when I look back at my life, I'm always astounded to this day - "How did I make it? How did I not become a statistic? How do I live in the great state of New York?" And I've been here 11 years. Never been raped, robbed, or beaten. Living my dream of being a professional speaker where I work with wonderful, successful women entrepreneurs who struggle with bringing their next big ideas, concepts, brands, products and services, to different markets. So if you need a pitch for an investor, I got you. Need a pitch for media? I got you. You need a pitch at networking events? I got you. That is what I do. And I've also iterated to teaching new and emerging speakers how to successfully build a speaker platform so that they're attractive to conference organizers and event planners. And for professional speakers or seasoned speakers, I teach them how to get paid speaking engagements. So when I tell you we are the art and science of the most killer pitches, we also do not play. I'm not new to this. I'm true to this. I am Precious Williams, the #KillerPitchMaster, and I will help you - what? - #slay all competition.Zach: My God. Sound Man, give me some air horns. [he complies] That's crazy. That's incredible. And honestly, I really want to add one of those '90s "Ow"s. That was incredible. That's incredible. Precious: Thank you.Zach: My goodness gracious. Okay, then. Well, shoot. You did that with that little ol' question, so you're gonna kill the rest of this. Let's start with the basics. What is a pitch?Precious: A pitch is a short, brief introduction to you, your company, your career, your life, that will make you attractive and interesting to an interested party, someone that you don't know but you want to get in front of. So think about getting on an elevator and taking it to, I don't know, the 20th floor. In that time, you should be able to have a pitch good enough to spark attention and make them want to meet with you or take your phone call. So as an elevator pitch master, I have won competitions in 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, and 10 minutes. When I won Black Enterprise, I won it in 1 minute--I became a finalist in 60 seconds, and I killed it in 30 seconds, and that's how I won in 2013, Black Enterprise.Zach: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. So, you know, we've talked about a little bit about--we've talked a bit. Not a little bit. We've talked a good bit actually about strategic self-advocacy on Living Corporate, right? What would you say most folk get wrong when it comes to pitching themselves?Precious: I find that most people are very boring. Most people have no idea how to introduce themselves in a way that makes them star-quality material. I find that people don't give a lot of thought to it, thinking that you should just wing it, and if [you learn anything] from me, it's preparation is key, practice perfectly, perform perfectly is key. Also, give them some of that funk, that flavor of who you are. So for example, when I went on Shark Tank, I knew they weren't ready for me, 'cause I don't come like anybody else. As a champion, you can't come like anybody else. If you want the basics, you don't have Precious. I'm not a basic chick at all. So I went in with a low-cut canary yellow form-fitting [inaudible] dress--and I was 275 pounds, and my company was Curvy Girls Lingerie, and I was pitching Curvy Girls Lingerie--and so, you know, when you're walking down the hall that music doesn't play. Just so we're clear, that music does not play. When they open up those doors and it's just you and the Sharks, I walked in like "Wait until they get a load of me. They ain't never seen nothing like me." So when I hit that X, I was going IN. Listen, I was in the paint. I was going HARD in the paint, and then I said, "Okay, ladies. Now let's get in formation." The door opened again, and my plus-sized models came through, and I tell you, they had never--I said, "Because I know what I'm doing." If you want to be average, [random?], or ordinary, do what regular people do. If you want to stand out and really make an impact, you have to be different. So I wrote an article a long time ago called "Does Shark Tank Teach You Everything You Need to Know About Pitching?" And there's no way it can, and don't be lulled into thinking that the people who get the investments are actually better than the people who don't. And sometimes your vision is beyond what most people can see. That's why you're called a visionary, and I'm a visionary and a trailblazer. You're speaking to investors. If you're speaking to a network--speaking at a networking event or you're speaking to the media, what is going to make you stand out like no other? And when we talk about self-promotion or self-actualization, all of that, you really need to hone in on what makes you different from everyone else and can you demonstrate that difference even if your products and services weren't in the room. Zach: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. This is what we're gonna do. This is a first for the Living Corporate podcast, but I feel like you can handle it. So I'm gonna give you some scenarios, right, where you would pitch yourself. I want you to give me, like, how you would do it. So I got three of 'em, okay? So are you ready?Precious: I'm ready.Zach: Okay, here we go. "You're a mid-level employee who's done the work but keeps getting passed over for a promotion that you've wanted for a while. How do you handle that?" How do you pitch yourself to get the promotion you're looking for?Precious: First of all, I would start making noise and buzz about what it is that I have done. So if you're a mid-level employee, what are your results? What's your value added? What content have you created? What things have set you apart from the others? A lot of the times when you're a mid-level employee you think that just doing the work is enough, but you have to promote what you do. You have to quantify what you do. You have to qualify what you do. You have to show how you being you has increased sales, has decreased problem areas, how you've been invaluable to the company. You have shown loyalty, fidelity, and you want the opportunity to shine on a bigger state in that promotion, but before you can do that, you have to show where you came from and where you took the company from where it was to where it is now, and that means you need to document what it is that you've done, what you've brought to the table, great ideas that have been implemented on, and you definitely want to walk in dressed like the promotion, not what you are right now. Give them something to look at. Give them a visual that they're not ready for.Zach: Yeah. I love it. I'm so excited. Okay, okay, okay. So that's great. This is the second scenario. "You're a new employee, and you're looking for a mentor." Precious: This is where we get into passion, energy, and intensity. So when you're looking for a mentor, one of the greatest tools alive, especially if you're a new employee at a new company, is to go about seeing who are the power players in the organization or in the company. What you want to do is see if you can spend a little bit of time with a few of them and get to know them. You'll ask them [if] they can take on any projects where you get to work closely with them. Let them know that you're always available--within reason, let me put it like that--that you're always available within reason to work on different projects because you want to stay a step above the people that you started with, and you have to show initiative. You have to show focus, grace, ease, and just mercy. You have to show all of that. And so when they see you working hard, they see that you came in that first day and you were strategic about what it is that you're doing. That stands out. When you allow them into your strategic vision and how you see yourself elevating the company or being a very valuable resource to the company, don't be afraid to toot your horn about what you've done in the past and what you plan to do there. And if you're young, man, you can do a lot for a company, as long as you keep showing that dedication and that focus. You can take instruction, but you can also give the ideas that young people always have that are so vibrant and so necessary to an organization in moving forward. That's what I would do.Zach: Amen. I love this, I love this. Okay, here's #3. Here we go. Last one. "You're venturing out to start your own side hustle, and you've found someone you think would be a great fit to join the team."Precious: Mm-hmm. Thinking that they're a great fit before I just jump on the bandwagon, I would vet them, because there are things in peoples' backgrounds that you may not know that might prevent them from being the great asset that you think they're going to be. So I would look them up online. I would--you know, 'cause you can meet a lot of people, and listen, I've been in this situation. I've had a partner that we did not work out. On paper we both looked good together. In person, in reality, we could be at each other's throats. One could be focused on money so much, the other one focused on customer service so much, that you constantly bump heads because you're not in a true partnership. What does that person bring to the table that you already don't have? You vet them, and you also go through a due diligence process. You interview them. You let them know about this great opportunity, but you vet them as they're vetting you. Don't make a decision immediately. You're not thirsty. You're not thirsty.Zach: Yeah. Precious: And since you're not thirsty, you can give it a week. You can give it a little bit of time and do more due diligence. You want to make sure that--even if you're the top person in your company or in your program, what you definitely want to make sure is that you sound off to someone that you trust to make sure that you're not rushing into a decision. That's what I would do as a killer pitch master.Zach: I love that, I love that. Now, look, you know we could keep going. You know this.Precious: I know.Zach: But before I let you go, do you have any parting words or shout-outs? Precious: Yes. I want to say that fortune favors the bold. If you are bold enough, you can make miracles happen with God's grace and mercy. When you step out on that faith, and you've been given a vision, it's time you move towards it. We don't live in the day and age of our grandparents or even our parents. You can really eat what you kill. You can really make a difference and impact walking in your authentic light and in your authentic, God-given purpose. Secondly, if you're someone who is looking for pitching help, I am here, and I am available. I am here to work with you on how to monetize your message, how to turn your mess into your message, and how to really--Zach: Come on, now. "Mess into your message?"Precious: Your mess into your message. Listen, I've been homeless. I've had an addiction. I've had all sorts of things happen to me. I've battled cancer and all of that kind of stuff. It doesn't matter. And I've been living my best life because I was able to face it and move on. Deal with the trauma. So what I want to say to everyone, when you look at someone that you think has it going on, you don't know their backstory, and it's important--and that's why I used to watch Behind the Musics when I was younger, Intimate Portrait, Biography, because I really wanted to know the true story. I didn't want the glitz and glamour story. I wanted to know "What did they overcome?" Because that would give me strength to know that I could overcome too. So get really comfortable with wanting to hear peoples' stories, because that will give you the catalyst to get off of your behind and make moves. Like Future and Drake said, "What a time to be alive." What a time. We can have a Zoom call, a Skype call. You don't have to leave and go to the office. You can just do things as you already are, and you can make a great impact. I've been in Corporate America. I've done that, and now I am a serial entrepreneur, international professional speaker, and just an all-around gal about town, right? All-around gal about town, and I am a full-figured diva on a mission, and that's to take over the world one curvy girl at a time.Zach: Come on. Yo, this has been a great interview. Thank you so much for being here, Precious.Precious: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.Zach: No, I appreciate you. So look, that does it for us, y'all. Thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We've got all the Living Corporates except for livingcorporate.com because Australia has livingcorporate.com, you know what I'm saying? They're not really trying to talk to us yet. I might need to talk to you, Precious, on how we can pitch to them so they can give us that domain, but look--Precious: That's right.Zach: I'm saying, but we got--but if you Google Living Corporate, ayo, we out here. So if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you could just DM us on any social media 'cause the DMs are wide open. This has been Zach, and you've been listening to Precious Williams, CEO of Perfect Pitches by Precious. Boy, my sound man is gonna have to really work on those Ps, but I love it. This has been Zach, y'all. Chat with y'all soon. Peace.Precious: We out!

Zach sits down with Joe Price, the co-founder and general manager of Grown Up Sports, to talk about GUS Leagues, and Joe shares a few physical wellness tips for professionals, particularly people of color.Check out GUS Leagues!Read the articles mentioned on the show:Why Your Chair Might Be Killing YouOffice Exercise: Add More Activity to Your WorkdayThe Future of Wellness at WorkThe Future of Employee WellnessTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, look, Ade and I have had several guests on the Living Corporate platform. We've had, you know, celebrities, musicians, authors, CEOs, but we haven't had my brother on the show. In fact, to be more specific, we haven't had my brother-in-law on the show, okay? And today we actually have a special guest, Joseph Price. Joe, what's up, man? How are you doing?Joe: Hey. I'm doing well, Zach. Zachary. How are you?Zach: I'm doing great, man. So look, today we're talking about wellness, and I think it's just a really great fit for you to be the guest to talk about wellness because of your background, your current passions, and just your level of expertise in physical and personal health. I mean, I'm not saying that you're, like, a doctor, but I'm saying, like, you got--you know what I'm saying? You've got some credentials.Joe: I am not a doctor, that is correct. [laughs] Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to chat a little bit about what I do and my experience in the space.Zach: Man, that sounds awesome. So look, without further ado, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?Joe: So for the sake of the podcast professionally, I own and operate an organization called GUS Leagues, which stands for Grown Up Sports Leagues. We're an adult sport and social club. We're based in Houston, Texas. Adult sport and social club means we essentially facilitate sports leagues, tournaments, some corporate wellness and other fun activities around town. So a little bit of sport, a little bit of social, and that's what I do by profession.Zach: That's awesome, man. So look, as you've already alluded to and as I said at the top, we're talking about physical wellness for corporate professionals. Let's talk a little bit about what physical wellness means to you. And I recognize that's a very broad statement, so, you know, you can take that and kind of wax poetic however which way you want.Joe: Yeah. So physical wellness obviously can be pretty broad. What drew me to the space specifically is that I'm into team sports. It's what I've done for fun. I've fostered community throughout my childhood, adolescence, and adult life, and I think that type of engagement is still something that people should do as they get older, and it's a good way to connect with other adults that sometimes can be a useful way to connect outside of just happy hours, drinking, getting dinner. You know, there's a way that you can improve yourself and still connect with people as an adult, and that's been a good way for me and something that I promote to our companies, to our friends, and how I personally connect with people. So that's the part that speaks to me about what we do. I still think it's very important--a good way for people to connect, period.Zach: Man, nah, straight up, and you're absolutely right that every time--well, let me not say every time, right? You don't want to speak in absolutes, but more often times than not, especially in consulting, when you talk about kicking it with somebody or, like, doing something fun, it often revolves around getting a drink, getting something to eat, right? Especially in consulting. They talk about, like, the consulting 15, right? Like, you pick up weight just traveling and eating out all of the time, and so I think that you're 100% right that finding other avenues to connect and build relationships as opposed to kind of, like, staring down a plate of food or staring in-between a bottle. So let's talk a little bit more about Grown Up Sports, right? Like, what's the story behind the company? Why the name? All of that. Just talk to us a little bit about it.Joe: As I alluded, we do grown up sports, and I--we'll just give you a little bit of background about how we even came to call ourselves that, 'cause I find the story interesting. We--me and my business partner, John, started this company about seven years ago. I know John because we both played intramurals at the University of Texas in Austin. That's where we went to undergrad. He worked for RecSports, was a sports management major, and he actually interned for a company that was similar to ours that was based in Austin and helped them with their original expansion out to San Antonio, and so this is something that he was passionate about from when he was forming a passion about anything. So when he was, like, 21. That was his focus. We both moved to Houston. He came here for law school. I came just to start my professional career. My family is from Houston. And we were looking for a similar community to that that we had when we were an undergrad playing intramurals. Couldn't find anything that we felt met that need in the space, and so--he had been wanting to do that for quite some time. We decided--so a little bit of background about me. I was working with an education technology start-up on the side, helping them with an expansion in Houston, so I had a little bit of entrepreneurial experience, and so when he was looking to start this he was looking for a partner, and he comes to me with the idea. We go through his business plan. I tell him it's awesome. I don't have time for it. Some situations arose that made it seem like the time was right, and so we decided that we would try to start this company, and then we decided we wanted to start it--we're both basketball guys, and so this was during the time when the NBA was on a lockout--Zach: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.Joe: Yeah, and so what you're seeing on ESPN at the time is a bunch of leagues, and we wanted to start with a basketball league. Leagues that are becoming popularized with these big names, and it's, like, the Goodman League, the Drew League. You know, something that has a name that pops, something you want to [?], like, name our company. We really wanted to do, like, recreational leagues in Houston, and so we had a name, that was Houston Rec Leagues, and then as we started thinking a little bit more long-term it was like, "Oh, that sounds a little bit limiting." So, you know, [had] a moment of clarity if you will [?], and it's like, "What could we name our company that rolls off the tongue?" And it was like, "We need something that's gonna pop and speak to people like the Drew League," and so I was thinking of what we were planning to provide, grown up sports. GUS. GUS League. You know, "It's gonna--it's gonna roll off the tongue. People are gonna love it," and, you know, it doesn't really work like that, but that was kind of the motivation behind why we [?] named it that, and it also gave us the opportunity if we ever wanted to expand our horizons to other geographic areas that it's not so limiting in scope as Houston Rec Leagues might have been.Zach: I love it.Joe: So that's a little bit about the name, yeah. And even our motivation--so this was--for me, this is how I make--[?] my closest friends, you know, I know 'em through sports. How I met my business partner, I met him through essentially, you know, our company, but for college students and intramurals. So this was just a natural thing for us to do, and it's nice that we've been able to find a way to make some money off something that we actually--we use the product ourselves, and we were looking for a need--the need was something that we were trying to solve for ourselves first and foremost.Zach: Man, I love that. And, you know, it's funny, you talk--and you talked about, like, it doesn't really work that way, but GUS does roll off the tongue, and it's interesting because as someone who lives in Houston, it feels like almost every other person, especially, like, before I joined the current firm that I'm at, like, everyone is either--they've either heard about it or they're a part of it. If I'm with somebody and, like, I can tell that they play basketball--you know the type, right? Either it's their walk or their build. I say, "Do you hoop?" And they'll be like, "Oh, yeah. You know, I do some intramural stuff. It's, like, an adult intramural." I'm like, "Oh, okay. Have you heard of GUS?" They're like, "Yeah, that's what I meant." I'm like, "Oh," and I remember after, like, the fourth or fifth time I was like, "Dang, this mug is real." Like, it's just super funny, but, like, anybody I see somebody with, like, that sore walk, you know what I'm talking about? Like, with the--you know. The limp--Joe: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, our knees are aging faster than the rest of us for sure. Zach: It's funny, but it's not funny at all. But I'll see it, and I'm like, "Oh, okay. He probably hoops," and I just--I mean, there's a strong percentage, man, and they'll be like, "Oh, GUS." It's--like, it's smooth, to your point. You talked about building up this business with John, and there was a point in time where you were building this up while you were actually in business school. Like, can we talk a little bit about what that was like?Joe: So I went to the University of Michigan for business school, got my MBA. Zach: [Go] Blue.Joe: Go Blue. Ooh, I appreciate that. And the reason I--I wanted to go to business school for a while before I went and didn't have necessarily a reason, a compelling reason. Like, I didn't know that I necessarily wanted to expand the career that I was in, if I was doing it to grow within the ranks of my current company, but after we started GUS--me personally I have always had ambitions to start a company, manage a company, be--have some entrepreneurial avenue in my life, and after we started GUS [I] had a real thing to actually focus on while I was in grad school. And that was--it was really useful. I think a lot of times you can run into students that are pursuing higher-level degrees, and sometimes it's a check on a box. For me it was a very personal journey. It's about personal development. I knew that maybe the cost of tuition is really high for me to learn about doing something that's more risky, and it--really the natural thing would be to take a more professional route, but I knew that I needed to get a little bit of the business chops if I ever wanted to grow this thing into something worth talking about, and so the business school aspect was really useful for me, being in an environment where I could actually focus on the business side of the company and not just the day-to-day operations, pull back from the day-to-day operations. I thought I was gonna be able to do both at the same time. That was proven very impossible as soon as I got on campus. But also to explore avenues with resources and advisers and mentors that were there to help me formulate my thoughts for what this could be and what I might want to focus on in the future. So the MBA process was wonderful for me, even just to think about more of the business side of starting a company--you know, you start a company. It's cool, it's fun, and then suddenly you get into, like, accounting problems, incentives with your employees and stuff like that, so this isn't [?]--Zach: Collections.Joe: Right. Y'all--oh, my gosh. Yeah.Zach: Yeah. No, that's incredible. Man, I figured I would ask. It was interesting 'cause we--you know, we had Nicaila on the show as well, and she talked about her time getting her MBA, and you're absolutely right, right, that--well, let me back up, 'cause I have not gotten my MBA, okay? So let me not talk and try to false flex, but when I talk to people--when I talk to people who have gotten an MBA, a lot of them will come back and be like, "Man, you know, I was just kind of doing this to check a box," or, you know, "I didn't really know what I was doing. I was just kind of going for it." And there's no shame in that, right? But I remember in talking to you about your journey, you know, you were very purposed in what you were doing, and I remember as I was thinking about getting back into school, that really helped shape me and shape my point of view in terms of "What am I actually doing this for?" Because it's a lot of time, and for many it's a lot of money, so there needs to be--in my opinion there should be some strategy you have, and so what was really cool to me was the fact that you had a strategy behind what you were doing. Okay, cool. Cool, cool, cool. So let's get back to wellness. If you had three physical wellness tips for professionals, particularly people of color, what would they be?Joe: Yeah. So I think just the baseline of staying active is really important. What we do is pretty structured, but on the note of people of color, we have done events with a color cancer foundation start-up by a brother based out of Austin who wanted to start something for people of color that are more susceptible to colon cancer because of physical inactivity. We've done events with them raising awareness, and the events that we did were not around the typical sports leagues that we do. They're, like, fun in the sun-type days, a field day, a bunch of activities - some tug-of-war, a watermelon-eating game, playing some water balloons in the sand. Just things that you're doing for fun with the purpose of reminding people that just being active can be fun and that it's an important thing to do as a part of, like, your daily wellness. And a lot of times your physical wellness can just--it can be preventative of things that could be much worse if you aren't--if you aren't prioritizing your wellness, and so part of it is just staying active period. I read an article around when we started this company that was in GQ that was--I think the title of the article was, like, "Our Chairs Are Killing Us." Yeah. We are dormant by profession, and our desks are actually harming us just by sitting all day, and, so, you know, the primary goal is literally just "Get up. Go do something. Take a walk," you know? Maybe take a 15-minute break every 4 hours. That's what a doctor would tell you. So that's the baseline. I do think--obviously I'm biased, but there's something to be said about continuing to play sports as an adult, team sports. I think some of that can be intimidating, but, you know, the majority of our customers or participants are corporate, and they're corporate groups getting together. They're doing low-stakes activities. They're playing recreational volleyball with us. A lot of it is about team building, team wellness, just getting people to get to know each other, have a good time--get outside of the office and have a good time, but also they're doing something active, and that's--sometimes that can be a good alternative to getting a drink and eating. And so, you know, if you--if you need some accountability, sometimes it's useful to do something like join a team with your office, and that can be--and it can be something low-stakes that's not intimidating, and then the third would be, you know, if you're not into committing to things like team sports, go do something on a one-day. Like, go to a run club if you want to go find some people that do something active but you don't have to commit to anything week in and week out, and sometimes that can be the gateway for you to find out more about, like, people that do this type of thing, but also you can pop in, pop out, do it on your own, and, you know, it might even help you find some other people that can get you into the types of things that are active, 'cause sometimes you just don't have the support system and it's hard to get started. So, you know, those are just a couple avenues to just get the ball rolling, and they're good ways to meet people. Personally--obviously my personal network is a little more active, but you also find that active people are interesting people. Like, they're finding a way to continue to do something, to push themselves, and that's--often times those are interesting people to be around and will make you a more interesting person as well.Zach: I love that. No, you're absolutely right, and man--the one point you made around just, like, getting up, that resonates with me a lot, 'cause man, I got these chairs, right, at my client site. I just be sitting down all day, Joe, so I find--Joe: They're so comfortable. They're ergonomically, like, sound, you know? We have such good executive chairs now. They're tempting to sit all day, and you just need--sometimes you need something to tell you.Zach: But let me keep it a bean with you though. Like, even still, even them ergonomic chairs, you know, like, your behind start getting numb, so what I started--I started getting up, man. I had to start taking my walks downtown, 'cause, like, I can't--I can't do it, man. It's too much. Like, I'm used to feeling all parts of my body. Like, I'm 29 years old. I should feel my body when I'm at work, you know what I'm saying? Like, come on. We gotta get up. So that's real though. I appreciate that. Now, look, don't let me shortchange you. Where can people learn more about GUS?Joe: We--you know, GUS Leagues, if you go to GUS Leagues on any social media channel, @GUSleagues, you'll find us. GUSleagues.com, our website, is pretty informative. You can find out all of the things we do and things you can engage with us. If you happen to be in Houston and you work for a company that's looking to do a team-building activity, check us out. We do that type of thing as well. Yeah, you know, you can--if you type in GUS--if you type in basketball, if you type in adult sports in Houston, you're probably gonna find us.Zach: Oh, that's a lowkey stunt, but I appreciate it.Joe: That was--it was a light flex, but it's typically accurate.Zach: It was a light flex, but it's accurate. That's what make flexing dope, is when, like, you say something that's just, like, it's facts though. You're right. So when you type in "basketball," you type in "adult rec," Grown Up Sports will pop up, y'all. And this is not even an ad, yo. It's true.Joe: No, this is not a paid--it's not a paid spot. [inaudible].Zach: This is not a paid spot, facts. But what we're gonna do, Joe, we'll make sure that we have all of the information down at the bottom. And listen, for those who don't know, we talk a little bit about--a lot of bit, a lot about the future of work, right? And we talk about how teams and groups and organizations are gonna be changing, and listen, y'all, for those who don't know, get in the know. We'll make sure to put some articles in the show links as well, but wellness is gonna be a large portion of how organizations center and manage their teams. It's gonna be a larger point of or part of employee incentives. So the more that you can really learn and understand and get plugged into spaces like this the better. So I'm talking to y'all employees and I'm talking to y'all corporate big wigs, y'all who be making decisions, because I know y'all be listening to this too. Shout-out to the people who be making decisions. What's up? Okay, before we go, Joe, any parting words or shout-outs?Joe: No, just shout-out to you. This is--love the podcast, love what you're doing. I think it's important work, and more power to you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for the shout-out too. I'm amongst really good company on this show, and you're an excellent interviewer, so I appreciate the attention to detail.Zach: Aw. Man, so, you know, I don't have my soundboard, but man, if I did, like, I would play, like, the theme song from "My Brother and Me." Remember that show? "My Brother and Me" on Nickelodeon? [I’d like to add it, but I’m unsure if that’s legal]Joe: Oh, my gosh. Yes. So good.Zach: Yeah, yeah, but it's okay. All right. Well, that does it for us, y'all. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com, please say the dash, okay? Now, look, it's also livingcorporate.co, livingcorporate.org, livingcorporate.net. We got, like, all the Living Corporates, Joe, except for livingcorporate.com, 'cause Australia got the domain, bro, and they not letting it up. I don't know what's up.Joe: Amazing.Zach: I know, right? If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com, or you can just hit us up on DMs. Our DMs are wide open. Just slide up in there, ask us a question. We'll make sure to answer your question, and we'll call the title--the episode of the show "Listener Letters." We've done 'em a couple of times. We'll continue to do it. Just send us the questions. Now, look, this has been Zach, and you've been listening to Joseph Price, founder--well, co-founder, 'cause no disrespect to Favor. John Favor, what's up? We see you. And CEO of Grown Up Sports, based in Houston, Texas. 'Til next time--Joe: [makes horn-like noises]Zach: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, snap. Hold on. Wait, wait, wait. Before we go, I do need to get some--no, no, no. Joe, that's a good point. Sound Man, give me my air horns right HERE. [he does] Okay, and now we're gone. Peace.

Ade and Zach reply to more listener letters! Remember, if you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, feel free to email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com! You can also DM us on all platforms - they're open! Check them out: Twitter, Facebook, InstagramConnect with us! http://bit.ly/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: Hey, y'all. It's Ade.Zach: And it's Zach. Hey, look, we did it the other way. How does that feel?Ade: Yuck. I can't stand it.Zach: [laughs] It's also alphabetical, and we're going from A to Z with these listener letters. Yo. Bars. [laughs]Ade: All right. [?]. I'm just gonna let you have it.Zach: Man. Y'all, I might be--yo, I might--I need to take these talents, like, to NBC, man. Like, I need to write for somebody. Like, these are good jokes.Ade: Hm.Zach: Or maybe I'd be, like, a ghostwriter, 'cause, like, this is crazy. I have bars. Like, this is great. Did you hear that? I said alphabetical 'cause you--Ade: No, I got the point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? Come on, man. Don't hate. Okay, so look, we're doing these listener letters today. Now, look, we kind of said it last week. The names y'all put in these letters, we're going to say those names unless it seems a little too specific, then we might, like, just call it something else, right? But, like, just know we're gonna read these letters as you send 'em, right? So, you know, sign your name with what you want to be addressed as, and we'll make sure that we respect that, but, you know, we don't want to, like, go into our fake bag name and then, like, give you a fake name, but that might mess around and be your real name, you know what I mean? So just help us out. Help us help y'all. Yeah? Okay. So look, we got these listener letters. We're gonna go ahead and get going. I'ma read this first one. The subject line is "Too Friendly." Uh-oh. What's that mean?Ade: It sounds like a call to HR.Zach: I'm saying. Like, what you mean too friendly? Relax. Okay. "What's up, Ade and Zach?" Look, they kept it alphabetical. What'd I tell you?Ade: [scoffs]Zach: "I feel--" [laughs] "I feel like everyone else is super close at my job and I'm always on the outside of whatever inside jokes they're telling. It makes me question who I can trust, since everyone is friends with everyone but me. They're always going out after work and will come back from the weekend with their stories of what they did. I just want to come to work, do my thing, and go home. I don't want to give up that much time, but I'm also feeling like the odd woman out. What should I do to feel more comfortable at my job? Thanks." She wrote her name as Tracy. Okay, so what should Tracy do?Ade: Well, Tracy, you can't have your cake and eat it too, friend. I don't know what to tell you. It sounds like you're saying that you don't want to do the things that make--that have made everyone else become closer and, you know, more vulnerable with each other, right? So I understand wanting to come to work and go home and have that be the extent of your responsibilities at work. That being said, it means that you're not going to have a relationship with the depth that you are admiring and coveting. I mean, you can certainly do the things that we encourage. You can ask your coworkers to go get coffee with you, maybe bring donuts, but you can't have the conversations with people, you can't--honestly, if they're having, like, inside jokes because they went to Happy Hour three times and you went zero times, you're not gonna get any of those contexts. Am I missing something?Zach: No, you're not, and I think ultimately to make friends you have to be friendly. That's what my mom always tells me. Right? Like, you have to actually put yourself out there. So looking at your letter, I'm not really sure--I'm imagining, because of our platform, that you're a person of--a woman of color, and if you are--and even if you aren't, like, it can be hard to put yourself out there and--'cause to show vulnerability with, like, a group of people that you don't really--you don't know, to, like, really try to make friends, and it's tough because, you know, like, the cliqueiness and stuff, like, those things don't just stop after high school. Like, there are definitely, like, work cliques.Ade: Correct.Zach: And so I can understand and empathize with you, you know, feeling a certain kind of way, but, like, if you [?] these insecurities, one way to combat those insecurities is to one, just, like, maybe go out every now and then. It doesn't have to be all the time, but just take the time. Like, if you know they go out somewhere every weekend, maybe you go one time with them on a weekend, or just start maybe with baby steps of if you know they're going out to Happy Hour every single week, you know, maybe choose one or two times a month that you're gonna go with them, right? Like, and then that way you can start kind of easing into it, and that way you will feel more comfortable, and then they'll feel more comfortable, and then, like, it'll--barriers will just kind of come down, I think. But I'm not a woman though, and, like, my wife always tells me that, like, women are different. Like, I'll be kind of talking to her about something and she'll be like, "Look, Zach, women are just different." So help me understand, Ade, what I might be missing in this.Ade: I do not want to project things that aren't there. I don't want to project off of my own personal experiences, simply because I don't think that it does Tracy any good to hypothesize about what could be happening. I mean, her letter doesn't say that she's ever been invited. So that to me might be the issue in that it's one thing that they're having all of these, like, Happy Hours or they're going or whatever it is that they're doing outside of work. It also doesn't say how long that Tracy has been there. It doesn't say that she's ever been extended a formal invitation. It doesn't say that they're including her in other ways that don't include these extracurricular activities, so I--there are many, many different things that could be going on, but what I do know to be true is that Tracy herself says that she only wants to come to work, do her thing, and go home. There are ways to develop friendly relationships that don't also require you to be more vulnerable than you want to be at work. So I would say to Tracy kind of what we said last week with I think it was Jamal. Grab a drink with them. Not, like, alcohol, but grab some coffee or grab some tea, or come in in the morning and ask them about the weekend and share a little bit of what you did on your weekend, or "Oh, hey. Did you guys catch Homecoming on Netflix? Really great. You guys should see it." There's so many--yeah, there's so many different ways that you can share cultural contexts that don't require you to be more revealing than necessary. Also, once you start relying on greater cultural contexts, I mean, you don't have to get their inside jokes, because Beyonce, like, crosses all cultural barriers, right? Like, come on. Come on.Zach: "Come on. Come on." [laughs] No, I super agree, and that's a really good point, like, that culture is a big deal. People talk about culture in, like, these really, like, high-brow, generic, 30,000-foot ways, but I think, like, just really practically speaking, like, for people of color, at least I'll speak for black folks, like, if I'm going out for drinks with you after work, like, that means that I'm really cool with you. So, like, it's hard for us--I'll speak for me anyway. It was hard for me to, like, really be like, "Yeah, I'ma go out to drinks with you," after I've already worked 8 hours or 9 or 10 hours with you and I've seen you, you know what I'm saying, all day, and I don't even know if I really like or trust you. So, like, you haven't really shown me, like, any type of trust-worthy characteristics while we work together, but now I'm about to spend extra time and my money with you? Right? Like, those are the things that have gone through my mind. Like, "Okay, I'ma go break these barriers down," but, like--and we talked about this with Deborah Owens, who's CEO of the Corporate Alley Cat. We spoke with her--we spoke with her about this, I believe that was in season 1, but we were just talking about that's part of the job. Like, doing that, extending yourself is part of your job, and getting to know those people is part of--is part of your whole work life. Like, those are working hours for you. Like, that's how you should think about it. If you genuinely just don't do want to do it, it's important for you to make some of that time. Again, it doesn't have to be all the time, but you should not be like, "No, I don't go to anything." Like, you should go to something from time to time, but I also think it's a really good point that, like, you shouldn't have to extend yourself super far. There are small things you can do at work, you know what I'm saying? There are things you can do at work to make sure that people at least know a little bit about you. Maybe there's some more humor you can insert at work. Again, I'm not asking you to be, like, a comedian. I'm just saying, like, there's things that you can do. So I think that's really good feedback.Ade: I think the final comment that I would want to make is that--have you ever seen that graphic of the cultural context? Like, the cultural iceberg?Zach: Nah, what is that?Ade: Okay, so it's this image that shows--like, you know how an iceberg, you really can only ever see the tip of it, and there's so much more depth or so much more that's underneath the waters? At the top, it shows things like food and holidays and language as the things that are easy to see, but underneath the surface there are things like rules of conduct, child-rearing practices, family values, body language, expectations, aesthetics, personal space. There are all of these different things that are a part of your culture that are so much more difficult to articulate. I think there is such a thing as work culture, a similar iceberg in that it's easy to see, like, your dress code, turn-around time for client deliverables, or just all of these different things that are easy to see once you enter the work space, but they're things that are--that are underneath the surface, right? How often you should be going to Happy Hour being one of them, which could be really alienating for people who don't drink for whatever reason, right, or that you have to make your rounds every day to have conversations with people, which is something that I didn't know when I first started working in a lot of corporate spaces. Like, you have to make rounds. You have to go around to people and make conversations in certain--in certain work environments because you're so scattered, and so in order to maintain your working relationships, it's this unspoken rule that you get up at 10:00 a.m. or at 2:00 p.m. and you kind of go talk to other coworkers. These are all things that are a part of that work culture iceberg that might be difficult to see, and once you have fallen on the wrong side of that iceberg, it's very difficult to repair those relationships. Because they're unspoken, people assume that you know that this is the appropriate thing to do, and so they feel as though you've slapped their hand one too many times when they extended it out and tried to be friendly by inviting you out or by asking you to do whatever, whereas your understanding is "I'm just here to work and go home," and so in order to bridge the gap of those two work cultures, I would say that there is no better time than now to start reaching out. And people love talking about themselves. It's not, like, a moral failing. It's simply just human nature. Like, when people start taking interest in the things that you enjoy and the things that you feel proud of, it makes you feel closer to the person asking. So Tracy, I would advise you to--not us asking you to, like, do any social engineering, but getting to know people by asking them about the things that they love and the things that they enjoy, and also with the understanding that we are not saying that that means that you need to go attending Happy Hours or that you need to extend yourself any further than necessary, simply that it is a mark of a good professional to be able to maintain good working relationships, regardless of the depth of those relationships. Does that make sense?Zach: It does make sense, and that's just a really good reminder, even for me. Not even for me, like I'm somebody. For me, because--Ade: [laughs] You are somebody, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Aw, thank you, Ade. But no, it's important, like, to make time and to, like, do the rounds. 99% of the time--99% of the businesses that we work in are people businesses. There's some type of people element to it, and even if they're not, like, external clients, if they're just, like, your own colleagues, there's relationships that you need to be continually thinking about in how you manage them. So that makes sense to me. I think it's super spot on.Ade: Cool. Cool, cool. Thank you for writing in, Tracy. We hope that you get a resolution to this soon, and we'd love to hear from you, see how you dealt with this, how you handled--how you handled this conversation.Zach: For sure, for sure. Okay, I see this next one. This one is called--the subject line is "Micromanager." Here we go. I'ma go ahead and read it. Actually, no, do you want to read this one? 'Cause I read the first one. Why don't you read this one?Ade: Sure, okay. All right. "Hey, Living Corporate. So I've been at my job for about two years now and recently got a new manager. They're nice enough, but are nonstop with the feedback," ooh, "as if they have something to say about every little thing to do, from checking my work, how I present and lead meetings and my body language. They're also asking me for their feedback, like, every other week to the point where I don't know what to say. I just am feeling overwhelmed. A part of me wants to tell them to back off, but I'm not trying to cause any trouble. What do you think I should do? Thanks. Courtney."Zach: Hm.Ade: Go ahead, Zach.Zach: So they're nonstop with the feedback. "I feel like they have something to say about every little thing I do, from checking my work, how I present, lead meetings, to my body language." So when I read this, and maybe I'm reading this from, like, a manager lens, right, so I could be wrong, it sounds to me like you have someone who's really engaged and they're trying to help you, right? And then when you say "They're also always asking me [?], like, every other week." So every two weeks they're asking you to give them feedback, so they're looking for you to help them, just like they're trying to help you. Are you just not--maybe you're just not used to being managed. Like, this is kind of weird. This is kind of weird to me. How do you feel? You're making all of these noises, and you were making noise when you read the letter, so, like, what am I missing here?Ade: Okay. I wouldn't necessarily say that Courtney is not used to being managed. I think that there are two conflicting styles here of working relationships. I think that Courtney's new manager is used to, to borrow PwC's phrase, "real-time feedback," and Courtney might be a little bit more used to a more hands-off style type of management, and that will--that will create conflict, but I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. I don't know that anybody is wrong here so much as miscommunicating, because it can be overwhelming to go from a very, very hands-off managerial style to someone who is seemingly in your face all of the time. That can be a very difficult experience. I know that I would be frazzled. I was frazzled when it happened to me, and I certainly think that--and I'm not saying that the manager is wrong either in saying that, "Oh, hey. I noticed that you do things this way. Maybe you should try this way instead," because ultimately most managers who are worth their salt are trying to help you develop your career and help you grow as an individual. They are not being malicious in their feedback, but nobody likes to be micromanaged, and that's likely what that feels like to Courtney. All that to say that I think that there are ways in which you can communicate that you feel overwhelmed with the deluge of information. Maybe you could schedule checkpoints every two weeks with your manager. Like, "Hey, let's go grab some coffee every two weeks for 30 minutes. We can have a conversation about my progress so far. We can talk about what you think I should be doing differently, but the constant check-ins are distracting, they're demoralizing, and I don't feel that they are actually helpful to me."Zach: That's real. You know, so, I'm looking at this email. Like, every other week the manager's asking them for feedback. 'Cause I don't know Courtney. I don't know if Courtney--Courtney might be a man or a woman, I'm not sure--asking them for feedback, right? So, like, asking them for feedback. Like, maybe that's where they can propose this. Like, that's where they can propose like, "Hey, look." Like, being really transparent, right? Like, "Hey, this is how this is making me feel. We have this time already." Unless it's something that's, like, a serious problem, like, "Unless it's something that's, like, gonna break--make something break, like, could we wait to kind of give me feedback during these points?" Typically, I'll say for me anyway, sometimes when I know that I'm micromanaging somebody, I realize that, like, I'm giving them feedback every little step of the way as opposed to, like, backing up and letting them, like, drive something, and then I can be like, "Oh, wait. I was gonna say this, but you ended up doing this anyway." "I was gonna say this, but you ended up--okay, so I don't even have to say anything about this," right? Like, I think that that makes sense. I think there is definitely opportunity, and if they really are being serious about this 360 feedback, I think that's the perfect place to give it to them then, but that's gonna take some vulnerability and, like, courage on your part, right? And you say in here, "Part of me wants me to tell them to back off, but I'm not really trying to cause any trouble." I don't feel like you're causing any trouble, right? I think it's about just being respectful, and nothing in here, what you've said, is that they've been disrespectful to you, so I'm gonna assume that everything has been above the board so far, that it's been, like, work. But that's what I would suggest, and yeah, I'm not trying to be unfair and say that you're not used to being managed. I guess what I'm saying is because of my work history, I've been in so many situations where, like, my lead does not care. They won't communicate with me. And I'm on a project now where I have a very engaged manager, and they really, really are plugged in, and they care about, like, my growth and my progress, and they give me, like, really poignant feedback, and it has felt at certain times overwhelming, but I had to ask myself, like, "Okay, how much of this is overwhelming because of I'm just getting too much feedback? How much is overwhelming because it's like, 'Wow, maybe I haven't really ever gotten, like, on-the-spot coaching about my performance before and, like, I'm just not used to how this feels.'" Like, maybe it's just a new feeling as opposed to me putting it on somebody else, you know what I'm saying? So that's what I mean when Courtney's like, "Okay, well, is this like--" How much is this just a new feeling for you that you need to navigate and, like, work through? That might take you time, and how much of this are you really feeling like they're micromanaging you? That's my take, but I feel like--I feel like we're still saying something--are we saying something different? Like, what do you think about what I'm saying?Ade: I think that it's entirely possible that it's both in that--I think we're actually saying the same thing actually, that the truth is somewhere in the middle, that Courtney might not be used to this person's managerial style, they might not be used to this instantaneous feedback, and that this manager's feedback might be--managerial style might be a little overwhelming, particularly for someone who has been in their position for two years and is switching contexts between two managers, and so I think that as a manager you do have to be mindful of the context and the role in which you step--like, the people who you're managing have had different contexts over time, and I think that it's only fair that you ramp up not coming with guns blazing. And it might not feel that way to you because you're simply doing what you've always done, which is "Oh, hey, I saw this. We should work on that," or "Oh, hey, I think you'd be a much more effective presenter if you did things this way." Which, fair, that's absolutely what you're supposed to be doing, but to manage up, Courtney, I would say that you should definitely take some time to sit down and figure out truly what are the things that make you the most uncomfortable, and then figure out how to make those things work for you, because if the feedback is meant for you to grow as a professional, there's no way that it can be a terrible thing to hear it. However, it's entirely true that it might be overwhelming for you when you're in the middle of deliverables and also trying to incorporate the last six things that were said to you in the last two days. So I would say that for me it would be much more effective to manage up in putting time on your manager's calendar, like, "Hey, every two weeks, let's go out, get some coffee or grab some lunch, and we can talk through my progress over the last two weeks and some areas you would like to see me improve, and we can iterate over my behavior in that way or my progress in that way as opposed to you sending me a note every, you know, three hours, because that's jarring."Zach: [laughs] Every three hours? No way. No way.Ade: Right, it's a little bit much, and not that I don't appreciate you paying close attention to me and my activities, but it does make me feel a little bit monitored and micromanaged, and I can't succeed in that way.Zach: No, that's real, and I mean, like--I'm agreeing with you, right? I agree with that. I think--and I think what's really cool is that two--every two weeks, that can just be the two weeks I already have set up, and yeah, so that's great. I think that's really good feedback. So Courtney, hope that helps. Let us know how it goes. Keep us updated on the progress. I definitely think the term "managing up" is important, 'cause this is part of it, this is a huge part of it, is you having this discussion with your boss, and it seems as--your lead, your manager, and it seems as if--I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at it through--I'm being biased 'cause I'm looking at it through, like, a manager lens, but it seems as if this person at least--I mean, the communication is there, right? It's not like you're having to create a lane of communication, so hopefully it should work out. We'll see though. Hm. Okay. All right. All right, y'all. Well, that does it for us on the listener letters. Let's see here. So I have one Favorite Thing, and I recognize that we did not talk about this in pre-production, so if you don't have one it's no big deal. But it's been a couple of weeks, right? So I just want to, like, really quickly--so, like, I feel like I can now talk about Avengers: Endgame. Very good, right?Ade: No spoilers.Zach: No, no. Definitely spoilers. It's been two weeks. It's been, like, two or three weeks.Ade: No spoilers. What? No. Don't be a terrible person.Zach: How am I being a terrible person? It's been mad weeks!Ade: No spoilers! None.Zach: Oh, my goodness. Man, I was about to say--I was about to be like, "And when So-and-so did the such-and-such!" I was just--Ade: I require more of you than you are giving me right now, Zachary.Zach: Man, that's real, that's real. Okay, so I'm not gonna get into spoilers. However, great, great movie. In fact, let me tell y'all what happened. So opening weekend, right?Ade: Oh. I was about to be like, "Didn't I just say?"Zach: Nah, nah, nah. So opening weekend, right? I planned on going Thursday night, but then I had a really busy day on Friday, and I was like, "You know what? Let me be wise and just, like, let me be mature, and I will wait," so I waited. I did not go Thursday night. I ended up going Friday night instead, and man, when I tell you that I was so emotionally overwhelmed. Like, I cried. I cheered. I cried again. I cheered again. I gasped, like, multiple times. I was like, "Man." And so I had already, like, proactively got tickets for Saturday AND Sunday, and I was like--'cause I just know I'm gonna want to see it again, and the theaters are sold out, but I was so tired--like, I was so drained by that movie and the multiple conversations I had--again, I'm not gonna get into spoilers. I was so drained. I was just like, "You know what? Let me just not." I've only gone to see it once. Like, that's how drained I was, 'cause I was just--I cried. Like, it was just so good. I've never seen a movie--like, it's just the culmination of more than 20 films, man. Like, come on, dogg. Like, that's a lot of work. It was so good. Like, you saw it, Ade. Am I tripping? Was it not great?Ade: It was amazing. Amazing.Zach: It was so--like, my gosh. It was so good.Ade: Amazing.Zach: Ugh, so good. So anyway, that's my favorite thing. I hope that y'all go see it if you haven't already, and then also, you need to go ahead and just cut the cable and go ahead and get that Disney+, 'cause y'all know all these shows about to come up. And again, I can't get into the spoilers 'cause Ade told me not to, but there's gonna be a bunch of other stuff coming, and--Ade: I'm just gonna--I need your login information, Zach. Thanks in advance.Zach: You are wrong. [both laugh] You know, it's so funny. Like, everybody has Candice and I's login. Like, I go on my little Netflix and my Hulu, I see, like, 17 accounts. I'm like, "Who are these little profiles?" Like, what is this? Come on.Ade: You're the grown up. I don't know what to tell you.Zach: Clearly. My goodness though, and some of them--some of them created profiles when they were, like, you know, in college, but, like, come on, man. Like, we all got money now. Y'all need to go ahead and help. Get your own, you know what I mean? Anyways.Ade: Chip in.Zach: Chip in, exactly. Put in on this, you know what I'm saying? You know, put 5 on it. That's all I'm trying to say. So okay, with that being said, I feel like we're at the end. So Ade, is there anything else?Ade: Nope, that's it. I actually was gonna use Endgame as my favorite thing as well. I've seen that movie several times at this point, and yeah, y'all watch it so we can talk about it in two months.Zach: Straight up. Okay, well, I guess that's that. Thank you for listening to us and joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. We are on all of Al Gore's internet.Ade: Everywhere.Zach: Everywhere. Just type in Living Corporate. Check us out. You type in Living Corporate on Google, we will pop up on every major player. You can check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, on Instagram @LivingCorporatePodcast. You can email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And actually, on Instagram it's not @LivingCorporatePodcast, it's @LivingCorporate. Boom. Thank you. If you have any questions, any letters you'd like to send in on the show for us to read them like we did on this episode today, again, just email us, or you can DM us on Twitter and Instagram, 'cause our DMs are wide open. That's right. You don't even have to follow us. You can just DM us, but come on, be polite, 'cause some of y'all be out here wildin', okay? You know who y'all are. I'm not even gonna give you the air time, but you know. Let's see here. What else? What else? What else? Nah, I feel like that's it, you know what I'm saying? Grace and peace, afro grease or whatever else you use to keep your skin and hair lathered. You know, do what you do.Ade: [sighs] So much is happening. Um...Zach: This has been Zach.Ade: ...Yeah. This has been Ade. Y'all pray for Zach. He's going through some things.Zach: [laughs] Not at all, not at all! Listen, okay? Moisturization is important, and we're talking to people of color here. Come on. Like, you gotta--come on, let's go. Carol's Daughter or something. You gotta use something.Ade: [sighs] Goodbye, y'all.Both: Peace.

Zach and Ade respond to a couple more listener letters. Keep sending them in, y'all! The topics discussed in this one include being pregnant at your job and finding yourself unable to verbally fit in with your coworkers.Connect with us on our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: You know what? Wait a minute. Why do we always do me first? What is that about? You never go, "Hey, y'all. It's Ade," and I go, "It's Zach." Like, we always--we always do it like that. What's up with that?Ade: I don't know if that's true. I feel like I have gone first. I don't know. 'Cause I do the countdown, so I expect that you do the--Zach: Well, there you go.Ade: Yeah, I just--Zach: I don't know. I just feel like--I feel like if we're gonna dismantle patriarchy, like, we need to dismantle it at every--you know what I'm saying, every corner.Ade: I feel like you're just using that as an excuse to not go first.Zach: [laughs] Maybe it's 'cause--so when I walk around with people, like my wife, with women at my job, I open the door, and then I push for--I encourage for them to go first, and I kind of feel like it just doesn't rub me right 'cause--it rubs me wrong rather, because it's like I feel like I'm walking through the door first. Anyway, it's okay. Listen, y'all. You're listening to [inaudible]--Ade: Does anybody ever hold the door for you, Zach?Zach: You know what? My coworkers on my current project. They are--they hold the door open, and it's kind of awkward, and they go, "Yeah, that's right, Zach. I'm opening the door for you," and we laugh, and then I walk in the room. Ade: Wonderful. I was about to say I'd open the door for you.Zach: I believe that. I believe you would. I believe you would.Ade: Totally.Zach: Well, look for those listening in, you are listening to Zach and Ade on Living Corporate, and today we have--da-da-da-daaa--more listener letters. What's up?Ade: Sure do.Zach: So it's interesting. It was like--I feel like we've been asking for listener letters, and now they're coming in. Really excited about that. Please continue to send 'em in. We're gonna try to do at least two per episode, like, episodes that we do this, so--and we're trying to, like, churn through them, right, so we can get back to them, so that way y'all know that we're actually responding to y'all's notes. 'Cause y'all do be sending 'em in, and I feel bad--like, some of these we've been sitting on too long, but--[laughs] so I feel bad, so we're gonna start actually being a little bit more--I don't want to use the word aggressive--intentional, right, in getting these back to y'all. All right, well, go ahead. This first one I'm looking at, Ade--I'ma let you go ahead and ride on this one, and I may provide color commentary, but I feel like this is definitely a space that you would probably be better to speak in.Ade: I actually disagree. I think this is one that we should tag team, primarily because I have--I've never been in this dilemma before at least, so I don't know that I have the full range of context and experience, but I think it would be good to share this. Anyway, the subject of today's listener letter--it's called "Bun in the Oven." All right, let's go. It goes, "Hi, Zach and Ade. Thanks so much for this platform. I am dealing with a situation at work and I'm not certain what to do. I work in a relatively conservative area, and I'm pretty far from home. I've been in my industry for three years and in my current position for one. I'm used to working 60-80 hour weeks--whoo--at work, and I'm not alone in this. Most of my team tends to work long hours, but the pay is great and it's really rewarding work. Here's my problem - I recently discovered that I'm pregnant. I do not have a long-term partner, and I'm concerned about my ability to keep up with the pace at work and how my coworkers might react. What should I do here? Any advice welcome. Thanks again. Leah."Zach: Hm.Ade: All right.Zach: So now why do--what commentary or insight do you think I could add in this? I'm curious. What do you--how do you think I could--I could [laughs] provide--what value could I add to this conversation as a man? Like, you help me understand.Ade: I just--I feel as though, as someone who is more senior in their career, you might have more strategic ways of approaching this conversation than I might. You want to take a stab at it?Zach: Oh, okay. Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. Of course I've been in a variety of situations. I work with folks all the time who get pregnant. I think what I've seen--I'm just gonna talk about what I've observed that I've seen go well is people just being really open about kind of what's going on if they are pregnant, utilizing their resources. So they talk to their leads, they talk to HR, they understand and, like, really explore their benefits, and then they just start making plans and saying, "Okay, well, look. You know, I'm pregnant, and this is gonna be--" "And I'm looking at my benefits so that I can go on leave. This is my work plan up 'til then." Talking, and, like, you know, just kind of being transparent with your leadership about, like, "Hey, because I'm pregnant, my work schedule may need--I need to adjust my work schedule in this way or that way." You talked about the fact that you're used to working 60-80 hour weeks. Like, those things may need to shift or change if possible, but again, I think it's--what I've seen is people who are really just open about it, because the last thing of course you want is stress. So the more things you can do to kind of destress the situation the better, and that's what I've seen--that's what I've seen work.Ade: That sounded like a lot. I don't know why you discounted yourself from the conversation and sharing your knowledge to begin with. Yeah, I just had to fact-check you right quick. Anyway... all right, so, Leah, first of all, thank you for writing in, and congratulations on this new journey on which you're about to embark. I think I would say, first and foremost, that you wrote about a couple of different things here, one that you're in a conservative area, two that you're far from home, three that you're working really, really long hours, and four that you're kind of doing this alone, and I would say that all the more reason to find your allies and your sponsors and your mentors at work and disclosing to them, as you feel comfortable, the situation you're in. Two would be that you don't concern yourself with keeping up with the pace at work. 60-80 hour weeks are great when you are not growing a whole other human being inside your body, but those are the circumstances in which you find yourself. So I don't think that it's wise to put the expectation upon yourself that you'll be able to keep up with 60-80 hour weeks. That's not even something that people who aren't pregnant want to do at a sustained pace for a very long time, let alone someone who's literally sharing resources with another human being. So don't put that pressure on yourself. Don't put that expectation on yourself. Definitely be realistic with what you can and cannot handle, and like Zach was saying earlier, start figuring out what your work plans are, what your contingencies are, and have honest conversations with your leadership about what it's gonna take from now 'til, you know, Baby Drop Day for you to continue being fulfilled and content in your career and also preparing for, again, this new part of your life that you're going to have to deal with. So Leah, the one thing that did concern me about this letter was that you--you mentioned that you were concerned about how your coworkers might react. I feel as though that is not something that should even pop up on your radar. I hope that you feel supported at work, and if you do not I think that it is--this would be the chief time to get some time on your--on the calendar with your HR person or with your allies or with your mentors and get a sense of what it means to split your time or to start removing some things from your plate, and it's OK to do that. It's OK to say, "Hey, I do not currently have the capacity for this at this time, and it's only gonna get--my plate is only gonna get fuller from henceforth, so how do we manage this in such a way to ensure I'm still having a fulfilling career and, you know, not being worked to death?" Leah, take care of yourself. Zach, is there anything else you'd like to add?Zach: You know, I think--the other piece is that you said that you're--you know, you're by yourself. Like, you're far away from home. So, you know, maybe there's an opportunity--and, again, every job is different. I know something that I was told, especially coming into the consulting space--and I don't know if you're consulting or not, but coming into consulting--I think it applies to just jobs in general, but it's like, "Hey, look, you don't get what you don't ask for," and so I wonder if there's any opportunity for you to work remotely on things, like, just for your whole working situation to change. I don't know the context of the role that you have at your job or, you know, how much of that is dependent on you being in the office, but, like, even if, like, a couple months, even before you take, you know, official leave for your baby, you could--you know, maybe there's an opportunity for you to work from home. Like, you know, there's other things. So I guess kind of going back to what I said at the beginning, which is, like, just being really transparent with the people that you trust, with your leadership, so that you can have a plan. I think that's part of it, is, like, being, like--just ask, like, you know, "What options are there for me?" I would also network within your business, right? I'm certain that there's other women at your job--well, let me not say I'm certain. Perhaps there are other--Ade: I was about to be like, "How certain are we?"Zach: "Are you certain?" But there may be other people at your job who have been pregnant and had children and had to navigate, so it's worth, like, networking and asking around as well. So that would be what I'd add, but nah, I think what you said is super spot-on. I agree. Ade: And sort of to pick up on that as well, if there are any employee resource groups at your firm, at your company, for women, I would certainly look into that. I just realized I didn't even, like, finish my train of thought with the whole mentors and et cetera, but also look into what support looks like after you give birth as well.Zach: Oh, that's a good point.Ade: Because again, you're going at this alone, so that means that you're going to have to figure out what childcare looks like, you're going to have to figure out--see, I don't even have a child, so I don't know--Zach: All the things?Ade: All the things. But postpartum care... shoot, I am ill-equipped for this conversation. But, you know, finding out what it means to be both a career woman and mom, that's a whole conversation in and of itself, a whole exploration process, and the more resources, the more conversations, then the more people you have around you who are able to support you in that exploration process, who are able to point you at the resources that you need and who are able to say, "Look, I don't know, but I am going to find out for you." That's the environment that you need--that's the support that you need, and I hope that you're gonna get that, and if you do not, I am hoping that you're able to find a space in which you can be both. And the other thing that I wanted to bring up--I read this post on Fishbowl. This just occurred to me. I read this post on Fishbowl a couple of weeks ago about this senior consultant who had just given birth and her team was already emailing her work to do, and she still has six weeks of leave left.Zach: Mm-mm. [disapprovingly]Ade: Don't ever feel pressured to take time away from your baby for your job, because your job will still be there, and should they ever find reason to fire you--and honestly, if you live in a state that doesn't require reason, then you're SOL anyway--I strongly advocate that you--when you do take time off work, be present entirely and let them figure out, right? No offense, but ABC Corporation will be just fine without you, and you're not gonna get the hours and the days and the weeks after you first give birth back just to just feel like yourself again, to bond with this new human, to breathe. You're not gonna be able to sleep for a little while, per my sister. So just being able to enjoy, step into the fullness of that experience... do not worry about the 60-80 hour weeks that are waiting on you or whatever it is that you left behind in your absence, because everybody else is getting paid for that. Like, they're getting paid to ensure that there is no lapse in the work that goes on, so I wouldn't worry about that.Zach: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point for everybody. I think a lot of times we can think that, like, if WE don't do something the whole world is gonna stop. It's like--it's a big company. Like, even if it's not a big company, you're not the CEO. Like, there's other people around. They get paid to help and be thoughtful and strategic on how to solve a problem. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's gonna be okay. It's navigable. Ade: Listen, just take a break. It's okay to say, "You know what? I'm a human being, and I have a life outside of this, and I'm not particularly interested in splitting my attention or my time with something that's not this. Like, this is the most important thing to me right now. You can keep the job."Zach: Yeah, straight up.Ade: It's okay to say that.Zach: It is. Okay. Well, Leah, congratulations as well. I apologize. I did not say that in my little initial response, but congratulations from the Living Corporate fam. Yearp.Ade: We should have a Living Corporate onesie made.Zach: Listen. Actually, I think that's a really cute idea. I just question, like, if we're--if we're big enough. But I would like to make one. If we get big enough and we start making, like, baby merch, we have--we have arrived.Ade: Officially made it. Mama, we made it.Zach: We have made it. We making baby merch? Not even just regular people. Baby merch. What? Anyway, one can only dream. The next letter comes from--oh, here we go--Jamal. Oh! ...I'm not hating on you. I'm not hating on Jamal.Ade: Why did you do that? Nope, now we're gonna--now we're gonna have to have a conversation, Zach.Zach: [laughs] It's just like--no, it's just funny, man. It's tough. It's tough out here, like, just the way that, you know, internalized depression is set up. Like, you know, even I see certain names and I'm like, "Oh, okay."Ade: I can't. We're gonna have to unpack that.Zach: We do. We need to talk about it. We need to talk about it in an episode about respectability politics, right? No, I'm just laughing at the name--I'm laughing at the name Jamal because it's just--it's so stereotypically black, and I love--Ade: In the context of the conversation that he's trying to have?Zach: And in the context of the conversation that he's trying to have. It's just funny. It's just all funny to me. Anyway, so look. Jamal, I'm not hating on your name. My name is Zachary. My mom named me that very strategically. I show up very well on resumes.Ade: You should also say your middle name.Zach: Sinclair.Ade: [laughs] Zach: [laughs] So I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum.Ade: I just also want to say that that was the only, like, American name for, like, a very, very long time. Any time I ever thought about "If I ever have children, what would I name them?" That was the only, like--Zach: Zachary?!Ade: No, no, no. Sinclair. That was the only non-[Yoruba?] name that I ever thought of, and it was because of Upton Sinclair. Zach: Sinclair is a dope name though.Ade: It's a very beautiful name. And then somebody was like, "Okay, but then they'll nickname your child Sin, and--"Zach: That's true. Call him Sini.Ade: Even worse. Even worse.Zach: I know. It's just ridiculous.Ade: Thank you so much for ruining this name for me, Sinclair. All right, let's move forward.Zach: Nah, kids are so mean. Anyway, that's another subject for another time. So this letter is from Jamal, subject line: Finding the Right Words. Finding the Right Words. "LC fam, I'm a new hire, and my team is very casual. Like, they use slang and don't even talk--do not talk very proper at all. They use more slang than I do outside of work. Maybe I'm old-school, but I speak fairly properly at work, to the point where I'm noticing I'm alienating my team. They'll say things like, "Hey, loosen up," but I really don't know how--"Ade: [laughs]Zach: "But I don't really know how. I didn't even know it was a problem until I got here. What advice would you give me to help me adjust? Thanks. Jamal." Oh, Jamal.Ade: Jamal. Jamal.Zach: J!Ade: First of all, my apologies... I just jumped right into that. Zach, is it all right if I go first?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: I am so sorry. I am not laughing at you, Jamal. I am tickled by the situation that you find yourself in. My apologies. I do not mean to be dismissive in which you find yourself. I am not minimizing your feelings. I just--I simply do find it humorous. OK. So Jamal, I want to know precisely what is said, you know? I don't--I do think that--and we've said this before on this podcast that--and Jamal, I'm assuming you're black 'cause I've never met a white Jamal, but--Zach: If we meet a white Jamal, he's coming on the show. I don't care what he does.Ade: If we meet a white Jamal?Zach: If there is a white Jamal--hey, if you're listening to this and you are white and your name is Jamal, email us and you will be on the show. I have never met a white Jamal. I've met a white Jerome. I've met a white Terrell.Ade: I have actually met a white Jerome. I used to date a white Jerome. Zach: Wow.Ade: That may have been too much information for this podcast. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: No. Oh, no. JJ, do not cut that.Ade: JJ. JJ.Zach: Was he a Kappa?Ade: Do me--oh, my God. We can discuss this offline. All right.Zach: I feel like--I feel like a white Jerome has a code shimmy. Ade: Can we--can we go?Zach: Go ahead.Ade: All right. Anyway, Jamal, again, I am so sorry. We are acting like plumfuls right now. First and foremost, again, thank you for writing in. Secondly, I feel like I need a little bit more context. What did it--what is it that makes you feel like you're alienating your team? Like, it's one thing for your team--I just have so many questions. One, I feel like there's a context necessary, right? If you work in an ad agency, the culture--or in a startup--the culture is not going to be as formal as if you worked in a bank, and that is not to say that you need to change the essence of who you are to fit into the context of your team, but I do think that it makes you more noticeable when you don't fit into the context of your team. Now, that said, there are fully ways that you can be who you are at work, not change an iota of who you are at work--see, you got me using--anyway, not changing the context of who you are, but also making more of an effort to be more accessible to your--to your team members. We've had this conversation before on an old episode where we were saying that people don't trust who they don't know. If you are inaccessible to your team members, it's harder for them to trust you, feel like they know you, go to bat for you in the same way that they would for other members of their team, regardless of how amazing you are. Like, I don't think that that is necessarily fair, because if you are a perfect coworker you just don't pop up at Happy Hours with the other coworkers simply because you don't drink. There's no reason why that should have an effect on your career trajectory. I do also think that there are other ways in which you can make people more comfortable with you without necessarily feeling out of place or like you're faking it. I think that you can--if you are a coffee drinker, you could invite people out for coffee. So they'll walk out for an afternoon coffee with you or coffee, or bring pictures of your family to put up in your workspace, or taking an interest in your coworkers, asking them questions about themselves so that you can listen to them use their slang and having a full conversation with them, because if that is not who you are, I wouldn't fake it. And I don't think you should have to in order to make anybody else comfortable. I do think that there are ways and strategies that you could employ to simply get to know your coworkers so that it's simply a part of who you are, Jamal, that you say, "I would not like to go to breakfast with you," instead of "Nah, I'm straight." You see what I'm saying? Does that make sense, Zach?Zach: It does make sense, and I do--I do think more context is needed, and I recognize, you know, you're not trying to get into all the details or whatever, but some--it's a challenge, especially, like--and I can really relate to this letter. That's why I was also kind of laughing, just because recently I've been getting feedback that I'm too--you know, that basically--not even too formal, but it's just like, "Okay, I'm getting lost in what you're saying, right?" And so what I have to challenge and what I have to question is how much of this is really me needing to adjust how I speak, because I'm almost 30 years old, and up 'til this point in my life I've been told that I'm a good communicator. I think that's one of the--one of my strengths. So how much of this is things I need to change? How much of this is, like, just personal style? You know, like, maybe what you're not used to? And then how much of this is just, like, you just maybe not being comfortable--like, maybe something about me makes you uncomfortable and there's, like, some unconscious biases there, right? Like, those are all--those are all things that are real, and, you know, when I think about--when I think about being at work and someone telling you to loosen up, it's like, okay, well, if you're communicating and kind of getting the message across, or if, you know, you're just saying what it is and they're still not really hearing you, then talking to someone you trust, right, outside of that team and being like, "Hey, look. Here's the feedback I've gotten. This is what I've been trying to do." You know, "What do you think?" Right? Like, getting some outside feedback I think is gonna be really important, because what you don't want to do is feel like you're having to--I think, like, to Ade's point, like, change your entire self. Like, you're trying to, like, rebuild yourself. Like, you're enough. Like, I imagine that you know how to put words together, so it might just be about making, like, some small tweaks and adjustments, but at the same time I think kind of trusting your gut as well and knowing who you are and then just kind of leaning into that. I think--the other point Ade made which I really like is, like, getting to know people and just kind of, like, building those relationships and then letting them see you, as comfortable as you are let them see you, but yeah. Like, that's what I would do, and then that way when they talk to you and you say, "Yes, I'd rather not," they don't go, "Oh, here you go again." Or maybe they do, but they've seen you, and they've seen you be consistent, so they know you're not putting on some type of, you know, air. That's my take.Ade: Right, and I do think that it's important that you separate who you are at work from who you are in general, and it's okay to not--it's okay to not want there to be an overlap. That's not to say that you have to hide yourself or lie or be unfriendly, and again, that's part of where this context that we're asking for comes in, because it's difficult to tell from this--from this letter whether the issue is that the coworkers don't feel as though they know you and that it comes out in them saying that you need to loosen up or that you are too straight-laced or if the issue is that you're not a culture fit for whatever reason. And I hate that phrase, "culture fit," because it's been used so frequently to exclude people of color, but again, some context is needed here, Jamal. I hope this conversation that we had helped, and if it did not, if you'd like to write in to further explain what's going on, we would love to have you, would love to hear some more from you, and if not, we hope that you get more comfortable, whether it is at this job or a next one. It's okay to be like, "You know what? I'm gonna take me and my suit and tie onto somewhere where we're respected." I think I'm perpetuating that "Break up with him."Zach: You are, you are. Ade: 'Cause I think I've said that about every single letter so far.Zach: You have, and I'm like, "Okay, Ade." I mean, everybody's not gonna just pack up and leave their job. I mean, you know, people do though. People leave. People find new jobs. I don't think this is what he's talking--I don't feel like this is the answer on this one though.Ade: No, I don't--I don't think that it is either. I am saying that it's OK if you feel like you don't want to and you want to kind of just pick up your things and go. The reason I say that is largely because you're a new hire, so I feel as though if they're trying to make you comfortable, singling you out is not the way to do that. And that may not be what they're doing. I fully admit that this letter's a little light on the details, et cetera. I'm just trying to address the full breadth of the experience that Jamal might be having. Since you're a new hire, it might be that they're trying to explain to you what the culture is without necessarily being the most obvious about it, because I know for a fact that I've, like--I've walked into a job in a full suit and the director was wearing jeans.Zach: Yeah, that happened to me recently. Like, I came to work and I was wearing, like, slacks and a blazer, and he was like, "Don't wear those slacks again." Like, it was super casual, you know what I'm saying? It was funny. And I got mad love for him too. He's funny. He's a nice guy. It was just super funny. And I wore a blazer. He wasn't super happy about the blazer, but the blazer has grown on him. I think he was like, "You have to take the slacks off." He was like, "I'ma kind of give you a little bit of a time about the blazer for a couple weeks, and then I'ma let you, but you gotta wear jeans." And so I got some--you know, I got some designer jeans. Anyway. We're on a tangent now, but anyway, I feel you. I feel you.Ade: Yeah, so I'm really honestly just trying to address the entire range of experience that might be going on here. It's entirely possible that they're wilin' and they need to relax and let you be who you are. It's entirely possible that they are trying to say, "Hey, you know what, a three-piece suit is not necessarily the way to go here," and they might also be saying that you're not a culture fit for whatever other reason. Either way, I would like for Jamal to feel comfortable in owning his experiences and in saying that, "Hey, I'm cool with this," or "Hey, I'm not cool with this," and either way, your life is yours, your career is yours, and you are able to make whatever decision you feel is necessary for your own growth and comfort.Zach: That's real. That's real. I gotta snap on that.Ade: Thank you, friend.Zach: You're welcome. You know, something interesting... we're saying these people's real names, and I wonder... should we not? Ade: Hm. You know what?Zach: We might need to do this whole thing over. I don't know.Ade: I feel like if they had wanted us to, like, bleep their names out or give them different names they'd have said so, but if you do write in and you prefer--and there are a bunch of Jamals out in the universe, so I don't--I don't expect--Zach: There's a lot of Jamals.Ade: Right? So if you do write in and you'd prefer that we do not say your actual names or the names with which you sign these letters--because these are just the names that signed the letters, so they may have given us fake names in the first place. Plot twist.Zach: That's real.Ade: But if you do prefer that we don't say your names, please let us know that, and we will do our best to find a repository of fake names to substitute.Zach: There we go. I like that. I like that cleanup. Thank you, Ade. It'd be so funny. What if, like, someone gave a fake name, we go, "You know, we don't really--" You know, "We're not gonna say this name," and then we give a fake name and the fake name is their actual name. Whoa. Ade: The universe really just needed you to say this with your chest then, because the odds of that--Zach: That's tough. That's tough tough.Ade: If you write in here, please note that I'm giving all of you [Yoruba?] names.Zach: Straight up. Okay, so--all Yoruba names, really?Ade: All of them.Zach: I like that.Ade: I mean, I might throw in an [?] name in there or an [?] name, but [?].Zach: Like Oshioke. That'd be dope. Ade: What? Oh, we're gonna have to coach you too.Zach: [laughs] I actually know an Oshioke. That's why that's so funny to me. Goodness gracious.Ade: It was just the way that you pronounced it. Zach: I know. No, I gotta do better. I need to grow. There's some opportunities for growth there.Ade: There are way too many Africans in your life for this to still be--Zach: There are so many. There are so many Africans. Shout-out to all my real Africans out there, but yeah. Okay. Well, look here. It's been--we got about 30 minutes? Okay, not doing too bad. Look, that's two listener letters. I feel like let's go ahead, let's do a Favorite Thing, you know what I'm saying, and then let's get on up out of here. How does that sound?Ade: All right, that sounds good.Zach: All right. What's your Favorite Thing? 'Cause I do have one.Ade: Okay, then you go ahead.Zach: All right, cool. So my Favorite Thing is actually this video, this music video, by this artist named Russ.Ade: [sighs] All right, and we're done. Thank you for listening.Zach: Oh, no. You don't like the video?Ade: I'm just being a hater. Go ahead.Zach: Oh, okay. I was about to say, this video was fire. So I opened up the video, 'cause I love music. For those who don't know, like, my background, before I changed my major, was music, and so I love music. Like, I'm really passionate about it, right? And so I'll listen to--I'll listen to really any genre. So anyway, I'm on YouTube like billions of others on this planet, and I open up a video and there's, like, this beautiful, I mean beautiful black woman, like, very, very dark, very dark-skinned, and I was like, "Man, this is incredible." And, like, the lighting was great, 'cause I'm also--like, I'm also really into photography and videography, so I'm looking at the lighting, I'm looking at the way--I'm just looking at, like, everything. Like, the color pallette. I'm like, "Wow, these are the prettiest black people." Like, on a--for this to be just a regular music video. This isn't, like, Black Panther. This is, like, just a music video. I was like, "Wow, the color--the lighting on the skin is so nice." So anyway, then the music starts playing, and then it's like--you know, it's an African song. Like, it's kind of African style. You help me, Ade, but it's--Ade: I'm gonna let you flounder for a few seconds.Zach: No, it's fire though. So anyway, then this random dude--I guess his name is Russ, I don't really know, so young people, help me out--this random dude, like, petite white man with very long hair is in, like, this really--Ade: Did you just call this grown man petite?Zach: I mean, he's like--he's only, like, 5'1". It doesn't matter. He's like--and he looks very out of place. He's wearing, like, a jersey with, like, baggy jeans, and, like, everybody else around him is, like, Nigerian or Cameroonian or, like, they are clearly, like, African, right? And they're all dancing, and, like, they look great, and he looks, like, super bummy, and the juxtaposition was really interesting, but it was a beautiful song.Ade: You just called this man bummy. You called this man bummy on his own music video? You called him petite and bummy on--are you sure this is your Favorite Thing?Zach: Everybody looks super--everybody looks so regal, but I like the fact that basically--to me, what I got from that was he was being himself, right? Like, I'm being myself. I'm chillin'. He also had, like, some--he also had some Nigerian cuisine references in his song, talking about "mix the jollof with the suya." I said, "Whaaat?" It was crazy. And so I just really enjoyed the video. I really liked the fact that you have, like, this really--apparently after I did some research on the Wikipedias--fairly [?]--on the Wikipedias. He's very popular, and, like, he really, like, centered--he centered black identity and experience in the song. And then the guy who sang with him, Davido... Davido? How do you say his name, Ade? Ade: I'm not doing this with you.Zach: He is cold! He snapped on this song. I said, "Yo, this is a fire song!" And so I sent it to Ade. I was like, "Yo, this is my Favorite Thing." Like, "The next time we talk about Favorite Things, I'm bringing this up." Yo, I loved the video.Ade: Do you know I completely forgot about that? I had to go, but, like, I'm literally watching the video right now as you talk about it. I had to go back to the text to go see what this is. I still can't believe you called this grown man petite, but yeah, he does look a little bit... slight.Zach: Listen, man. If the extra small fits. Like, I'm not trying to be mean. There's nothing wrong with being petite. You can--you can [?]--Ade: You are 6'3". Everybody is smaller than you.Zach: I'm 6'2", first of all. But yeah, I think--I wish I was 6'3". Man, that'd be great. I'm, like, 6'1" 1/2, almost 6'2". If I was, like, 6'3", what? If I was 6'3" with a beard--that's gonna be my next Favorite Thing, beards.Ade: There, so now you're only, like, 9 inches taller than me instead of 12. Great.Zach: There you go. But no, so why are you--why are you hating on the video? Do you not like the video?Ade: I'm not hating on the video actually. I just hadn't seen it, but I had heard a bunch of people, like, talking about it and how amazing it was, but I haven't seen it yet, so I'm just kind of like, "Ugh, God, I don't have anything to add to this conversation." And then you started the conversation about this, calling the man petite, and I had to go look.Zach: It got your attention though, right? See? There you go. Ade: I cannot. Okay.Zach: But what do you think? So you're looking at it. Like, well, how do you--is it not dope or is it not dope? Ade: Well, I haven't actually heard the song accompanying it, but yeah, it looks like a ton of fun.Zach: And don't the people look beautiful?Ade: I mean, yeah, of course. Wait, I think I just saw, like, a gay man in this.Zach: I'm saying. See? No, they're doing it. No, it's dope. Ade: Okay. All right, anyway, let's focus. All right.Zach: So that's my Favorite Thing. So what's your Favorite Thing?Ade: My Favorite Thing? So my Favorite Thing this week is a website called egghead.io. I've been struggling with--actually, two Favorite Things, 'cause, you know, y'all know how I am. Egghead.io is a website that has a bunch of lessons and tutorials for people who are learning programming, and they are, like, super short videos, which is great, because if you have a shrot attention span like I do, there's nothing in the world worse than signing up for sitting down for a 2-hour-long tutorial. It is so painful. And the concepts are [?] and robust, and you often get to, like, code along, so it's fun, for me at least. And then the other thing, my other Favorite Thing, it's the React training course. So I didn't tweet very often about it, but I went to--early last week I got the opportunity to go to a React training. It was on hooks specifically, but they essentially took us through the basics of React all the way through this new concept called hooks which uses [?] context and [?] effect, et cetera, which probably makes no sense to you right now, but I only got to go because I emailed the team behind React training and I just asked them. I was like, "I don't have $1,000 to drop on training, but I'd really like to come," and they said, "Cool, come on." And it's one of the things that I love the most about tech and tech spaces. It's that if you are--if you ask, more often than not somebody will try to find a way to make sure that you can get it. At least the spaces and the people that I have met have been super generous and awesome with their time and are willing to help you learn and help you succeed, and so for people to just go out of their way to support you simply because you say, "Hey, I'm a learner, and I would like the opportunity to attend this training. What can you do for me?" And they go, "Okay. Girl, come on over." It felt really good, and the training was amazing, and I am now using it to build a couple of apps with my friends. So I am--yeah, I'm super thankful for the tech community and thankful in particular for Ryan Florence and Michael Jackson. His name was really Michael Jackson. And Danny [?] over at React training. Yeah, love those guys.Zach: You said--you said his name is Michael Jackson?Ade: It's really Michael Jackson.Zach: Does that not make you nervous? 'Cause he might be so... BAD at his job?Ade: All right. Well, guys. You just had--you just had to get one in. Okay. All right.Zach: [laughing]Ade: Y'all, it was so awesome. Thank you for listening.Zach: Oh, you're not even gonna do your second favorite thing? You're just gonna--Ade: That was my second Favorite Thing, and my first thing was egghead.io.Zach: Oh, right. You just weaved into the next one. I'm sorry. You're right. Go ahead.Ade: You were so focused on your dad puns that you weren't even paying attention to me.Zach: I was paying attention to you. Relax.Ade: You were not practicing your active listening skills, Zachary.Zach: Man. I had some other ones I was gonna say, but I was like, "Dang, nah." 'Cause I don't wanna--you know what I'm saying? I ain't trying to mess the bag up, the future bag, you know what I'm saying? So I was like, "Eh, let me go ahead and not have a problematic joke."Ade: Your dad joke was amazing actually. Thank you.Zach: No, I believe it. I believe it. Okay, okay, okay. I'm sorry. You were wrapping it up. Okay.Ade: Yeah, caught Michael Jackson while he was on tour for once. All right, no, that was even worse. That was even worse than anything you came up with. Okay. Anyway, that's it for us today, guys. Thank you for joining us. Actually, I'm gonna stop saying guys. It's not very inclusive.Zach: I be trying to say. I'm trying to tell you. We need to relax on all these, you know what I'm saying, gender-limiting terms.Ade: You're right. Thanks for joining us, y'all. Next time we will see you--when's the next time we're gonna drop an episode, Zach? Do you know?Zach: I mean, next Friday. Ade: Word.Zach: We drop an episode every week, so.Ade: I've been using a contextual--like, weekly contextual language in this episode, 'cause I said last week, and I didn't know if it was actually gonna be last week by the time they hear this. Anyway, y'all, we're Living Corporate everywhere. We are on your LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. Wherever you be at we be at, so come check us out. If you would like for us to read one of your letters, please send us an email at our gmail. It's livingcorporatepod--podcast? Oh, gosh.Zach: Yo. It is livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can also DM us on Twitter and Instagram. You don't know--we're, like, 71 episodes in--or 72, I don't know when this one's gonna drop--you're talking about... goodness gracious. Yes, it's livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com.Ade: I had "livingcorporatepod" on--Zach: You probably--what you probably did, you was probably thinking about our Twitter, @LivingCorp_Pod.Ade: Yes, that's the one. Uh-huh. I just--I'm not a terrible person. I'm just tired today, y'all. All right. We are on the world wide web at www.living-corporate.com. I got that one right that time.Zach: You did. Good job.Ade: Pats on the back, pats on the back. [laughs] Until next time, it's been Ade.Zach: It's been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

On today's show, Zach and Ade discuss and expand on last week's D&I episode featuring Chris Moreland. They relate some interesting statistics and share a list of five important things to know to actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy.Connect with us on IG, Twitter, and Facebook!https://www.instagram.com/livingcorporate/https://twitter.com/LivingCorp_Podhttps://www.facebook.com/livingcorporatepodcastCheck out our website!https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: Oh, man. What's going on, y'all? It is Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: Sho are.Zach: [laughs] Yes, they are. Now, listen. It's funny. You know, we've been around for over a year, and--[both laugh] we've yet to explicitly talk about diversity and inclusion. I mean, our podcast is about--essentially about diversity and inclusion, right? But we've yet to talk about it, like, explicitly on this podcast, like, as a subject, and I find that kind of--kind of weird.Ade: Super weird. Super odd.Zach: Okay. Yeah, it's kind of odd. I mean, you would think it's kind of low-hanging fruit. It's, like, right there, you know? You know, we start off with these concepts and, you know, every-man topics, and we didn't really, like, go straight at it, you know? I don't know why we are just now getting into this. I don't know. Anyway, diversity and inclusion. Ade, what is--what is diversity and inclusion? Like, when we use the words "diversity and inclusion," like, what do we typically think of? Like, what are we--what are we talking about?Ade: We're talking about an actual effort by an organization, big or small, to ensure that their workplace, their groups, their team members, are representative of the world at large, that their spaces are not these homogeneous microcosms, and that they are really and truly including everybody in their missions. I think that would be my personal definition of diversity and inclusion.Zach: Well, you know, it's fire because you said homogeneous and microcosms back to back.Ade: Bloop. Get at me.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] No, I agree with that. You know, it's funny though, because often times I do believe that's the definition in theory, but a lot of times the term "diversity and inclusion" is just kind of used to make sure that folks don't get sued, right? Like, "We're not racist and we don't discriminate against people, so we're gonna use the term diversity and inclusion." You know what I'm saying? Like, if you look--I've seen some organizations--listen, I can't go into all of the details, but I've walked into a variety of companies, okay? And organizations can be as homogeneous as a pot of peas, okay?Ade: As a pot of peas...Zach: As a pot of peas. They all look the same. Everybody looks the same. [laughs] That's right. I'm country. I said it. A pot of peas. But on their website, oh, boy... boy, they got all the--all the jargon, all the lingo.Ade: Every stock photo of every [?] you can imagine.Zach: I see the same five black people in all of these diversity and inclusion photos.Ade: I mean, at least they have the common sense to actually have photos of people that they actually employ on their website. I have seen some egregious cases of literally stock photos on these websites.Zach: That's what I'm saying. That's what I've seen. I've seen the same--oh, I see what you--you thought I was saying the same black people on one website. No. Well, I've seen that too, but I'm saying I've seen the same stock photo images across multiple companies.Ade: Wow. Like, have you no shame? Have you no decency?Zach: [laughs] My goodness. There's millions of us out here. My gosh.Ade: There's literally billions, but I think the additional point, though, is that, like, it tells me what you value as an organization when you're willing to put more time and effort into planning your happy hours than you are into truly representing, not just racially but with the gender diversity makeup, the disability diversity makeup, with--like, there's so much that goes into thinking through what it means to have a diverse organization, and y'all will blow your HR budget on beer. And not even good beer.Zach: Not even good beer, lowkey.Ade: It drives me nuts that the conversation that we have about diversity and inclusion is about making it more palatable for everybody else as opposed to being like, "No, let's center this on what the truth of the matter is and what reality is as opposed to let's center this on what makes people comfortable."Zach: That's real. You're kind of jumping the gun a little bit, but I feel you. I feel you.Ade: My bad.Zach: No, you're good. You're good. I'm excited. I mean, like, now I'm activated, you know what I'm saying? I'm here. Let's go. [both laugh]Ade: Get active.Zach: But no, you're absolutely right, and it's interesting because--so I had, like, a crazy idea, right? So we know that companies actively--you know, like, when you look at black and brown unemployment, disabled unemployment, it is drastically higher, right, than majority unemployment. It would be dope though if companies, when they interviewed people and, like, they know--you know you're not about to hire that black or brown person, so you say, "Hey, listen, I'm not gonna hire you, but I'd love to take your picture for some of our diversity and inclusion stock photos."Ade: Excuse me? First of all, lawsuit. I'm not even gonna say anything. I'll just nod, smile, and, like, put Voice Memo on on my phone and just--Zach: [laughing] I couldn't even say that with a straight face, but it's--but you know what, though? There's some money in there somewhere, man. There's some business in there somewhere.Ade: All right. If you're done being ridiculous, let's focus.Zach: No, I'm not--listen, I'm not really being ridiculous, because as an--as an aside, y'all, I just read some article at random about this little 12-year-old white kid who was getting six-figure deals to create dances for rap songs, and then people buy the dances, and then, like, they pay him. But he's not doing--he's not doing new dances though.Ade: These dances he's creating are a compilation of dances that black people came up with.Zach: Black dances. Yes, yes.Ade: I just also--I think this is a separate conversation actually, but I wanted to have a conversation about what it means to monetize blackness divorced of black people.Zach: I'm here for it. Well, this is--so I feel like I'm--Ade: We're going down this rabbit hole.Zach: [laughs] We are, but no, seriously though, the reason I was being--I was, like, making a joke--it's kind of a joke, it's kind of not--is like, people are out here monetizing and getting bread off of this, off of the concept of D&I, without actually doing any D&I, right? And so I'm just saying, like, at least if you did that, you--at least some of these black people who are unemployed that have a little bit more money in their pocket while they look for their next job. I mean, something--I don't know. There's something there, but anyway. Okay, cool. So we've talked a little bit about what we think D&I is. We've done some research, right?Ade: Oh, actually, I also want to have another example of this.Zach: Yes, keep going.Ade: Did you see recently that Twitter Detroit posted a picture of their office space? And all white people. Every single person in that photo.Zach: Mm-mm, did not see that.Ade: Yeah, every single person in that photo was white. Now, I think it later came out that the--all of the black people that they had employed at Twitter Detroit was at NSBE, although I don't quite--I don't quite know the truth of that statement, but it was just a really striking photo, that you are in Detroit, a city that is 84 or 85% black...Zach: Detroit is black black.Ade: Blackity-black as hell.Zach: Detroit's the kind of black that makes other people, you know, kind of uncomfortable. [laughs] Like, it's black. It's a lot of black people.Ade: Kind of. Detroit--up until, like, three, four years ago, Detroit was the kind of black that these type of white people were not going into.Zach: I mean, to be--to be honest, that's true. That's true.Ade: Anyway, I say all of that--Zach: So they said all of the black people was at NSBE?Ade: I don't know if--again, this is not something that I did a ton of research into, because they posted an apology tweet attached to that first image... and I can read the tweet to you actually. It says, "We hear you on the lack of diversity. We're committed to making our company reflect the people we serve, and that includes here in Detroit. We've got a lot more work to do. We have a team at NSBE now, and we look forward to connecting with the amazing people there." I just have two questions. The first is there are three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine maybe people in here, all of whom are white-presenting. There are a couple of people who are out of the photo or they have their backs turned, so I don't know necessarily how true that is, but it's incredible to me the--because I was able to see that photo, and obviously a lot of people were able to see that photo, and immediately see the problem, but what does it say of your organizations that you are so deeply homogeneous that you don't recognize right off the bat that, "Hey, we're in Detroit. Every single one of us in here is white. What does that say about this organization?Zach: Well, you know what they're gonna say. They're gonna say it's about diversity of thought, Ade. Diversity of thought.Ade: That's cute.Zach: [laughs]Ade: And let me not poo-poo that idea out the gate. Let us treat that as a serious, intellectual argument. Okay, so you were saying that diversity of thought is more important than physical diversity, gender diversity, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum. However, what does it say that you think the only diversity that matters, diversity of thought that matters, is the kind of diversity of thought that represents you? Because there's no way you're telling me that you have the exact same thoughts and the exact same experiences and the exact same lens as, say, a black queer man who grew up in Detroit. There's just no--I don't believe that could ever be the case. Like, if you are from--if you're a queer man from midtown Chicago, you don't have the same thoughts as a queer man from Detroit. So I don't understand how that is even an argument that anyone could make, but I say all of that to say that diversity is important. So is inclusion, because it would suck even more if the person taking that photo had been a person of color or had been the only disabled person in the office or had been the only neuro-divergent person in the office, and they're not even included in the photo. You see what I'm saying? Like, there's--Zach: Oh, I hear you. Yeah. I'm letting you cook.Ade: There's so many different--[laughs] there's so many different--thank you, friend--there's so many different layers of complexity to that that on the one hand, why don't you have any of these--any of these types of diversity represented in your office? But also I don't know that it would be a safe space for anybody to walk up and say, "Oh, I'm the only black person in here." Having to represent at all times, that just sounds exhausting. So it's just--it's a very difficult conversation for me to--for me to really think through. Do you have some thoughts, friend?Zach: You know, I do, I do, and I appreciate you actually, like, slowing us down a little bit, 'cause I was gonna say that, you know, we did some research, right, and we've read a few things--just a couple thinkpieces, you know what I'm saying? Some Gallup data from the civil rights movement and some other things, you know what I'm saying? And labor data all around what does it really mean to be diverse and inclusive in an organization. And, you know, we've seen, like, you know, five things organizations are doing wrong, the top three reasons why D&I doesn't work, you know, what makes an effective D&I organization, what makes an effective D&I strategy, da-da-da-da-da, and so, look, as opposed to us reading all of our--all of the findings that we've had and just kind of reading it to you--boring, right--we decided--we, Living Corporate, right, Zach and Ade--decided to give y'all our own list of what you need to know about diversity and inclusion so that you can actually have an effective diversity and inclusion strategy. Yo, JJ. Drop the Flex bomb. Whoa.Ade: Not the flex bomb. [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Boom.Ade: I'm really looking forward to you being a dad, because you're just so equipped, and I'm tired of hearing your dad jokes.Zach: Nah, drop the Flex bomb. [dropping] In fact, JJ, drop it again. Yes.Ade: JJ, please stop. [he stops] Thank you.Zach: Nah, but it's--you know, it's important. So this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna give y'all some game for free. We're gonna give you some of our thought leadership for nothing at all. All y'all gotta do is listen. I mean, come on. I ain't trying to brag, but I'm saying, like, we're pretty dope, right? Am I wrong, Ade?Ade: I mean, no.Zach: Okay, here we go. So how many of these do we have? We've got five, right?Ade: I mean, something like that, but you know we can always expand on our lists if we start riffing off each other, et cetera, et cetera. We got five. We got five on it.Zach: All right, we got five. We have five on it. We're not messing with that endo weed, because it's not federally legal, but we do have five on it. [both laugh] Okay, here we go. First things first. [Ade continues laughing] You're really laughing. That's funny. First things first, diversity and inclusion are two different things. I know.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars, I know. Diversity and inclusion are two different things. Often enough times, we kind of just throw the terms "diversity" and "inclusion," like, we just smack 'em together, but they're actually very different, right? So a lot of us understand what diversity is. Diversity is the concept of having a variety of experiences, perspectives, in gender representation, ethnic representation, able-bodied representation, sexual orientation representation, right? Like, geographic representation. Having different types of perspectives in a space. Like, that's the concept of--Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Pause.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: [?] Sorry.Zach: It's good. Hey, JJ. Just cut all that out. That part is diversity, right? Inclusion though is different, right? Inclusion is not just about--it's not just about having people have a seat at the table, but making sure that those voices are actually heard at the table. And so a lot of times we'll say, "Well, inclusion means making sure people feel included." Inclusion means the power not only to sit at the table but to speak and have your voice equally heard at that table, right? And so it's not just enough to have a variety of voices at a table if only a certain number of voices or a certain type of voice is gonna be heard. Then it just kind of becomes, like, a dog and pony show, right? So no, I mean, that's really what it means, all right? Inclusion is all about making sure that those voices that have a seat at the table actually are heard, and typically, because of the hierarchical natures of these companies, voices that are not high on the totem pole are not heard, right? So it's about making sure that those voices are actually supported and given authority and access so that their ideas can be mobilized, right? I think a lot of times when we talk about inclusion it's like, "Oh, we have you in the room," but you're, like, over in the corner, or you're just kinda--and it also just kind of makes you feel tokenized, right? It's about actually making sure you have a voice. So that's the first one. Diversity and inclusion is--the first one is people don't really understand that diversity and inclusion are two different things, and they don't understand what those words mean.Ade: My turn. So beyond, you know, expanding the table and inviting people to eat--that's one of the phrases that I've used to describe, or that I've heard used to describe, diversity and inclusion, empowering people. I also would like to make the point that it's not the responsibility of marginalized people to diversity your workplace. What I've seen happen time and time again is that these embattled corporations where people realize "Oh, no, we treated diversity and inclusion as an afterthought, and now everybody looks like [trash?]. What do we do?" And they will hire somebody, usually a high-profile person, black person or a queer woman, they'll bring these people in and do nothing to change the fact that the culture that fostered this homogeneity continues, and so--and in so doing make it the responsibility of this person that they invited into this hostile workplace, make it their responsibility to improve everything. And then when said person starts making points like, "Yeah, you really shouldn't be making rape jokes during our lunch hour. You shouldn't be making them at all, but it's especially not appropriate in the work space," or saying things like, "Yeah, I'm actually not gonna let you touch my hair, Karen. I don't want to do that, and you don't have my permission to do that, so great talk." They're treated as though they are the problem, and we don't address the institutional racism. We address the black women talking about the institutional racism. We don't address the institutional--just general lack of respect for people with disabilities, and it's something that you would know if you spoke to the people who are experiencing these things, but it is instead more expedient to pat yourselves on the back for your awesome allyship and employing someone in a wheelchair and doing nothing to ensure that this person in a wheelchair is safe, comfortable, and can do their job without feeling belittled or patronized or outright ignored. So to restate my point, it is not the responsibility of the marginalized person to do the work of diversity and inclusion. It's not their job. It is everybody's job to ensure that the workplace is open and accessible.Zach: That's good. That's good.Ade: Bars.Zach: Bars. [both laugh] You like that. That makes you--that makes you giggle. Bars makes you laugh. I've noticed that over the past few episodes here. Okay, my turn. So in the spirit of your last point, my third--the third entry here is that diversity and inclusion will only go as far as the majority allows it to go, okay? So I'ma say it again. Diversity and inclusion will go...Ade: Bars.Zach: Only [laughs] as far as the majority allows it to go. So what do I mean by this? Let me give y'all some statistics from some Gallup polls back in 1961, in the throes of our U.S. civil rights movement. I'm gonna give y'all a few data points. Here we go. Do you approve--and this is a poll, right, a Gallup poll, given to white folks in 1961, again, in the middle of the civil rights movement. Here we go. "Do you approve or disapprove of what the Freedom Riders are doing?" 22% approved, 61% disapproved, 18% had no opinion. Here's another one. "Do you think sit-ins at lunch counters, freedom buses, and other demonstrations by Negroes will hurt or help the Negroes' chance of being integrated in the south?" 57% said they believe it will hurt, 28% said it will help, 16% said no opinion. Here's the last one, okay? This is the [Survey Research Amalgam?]. This is April, 1963. "Some people feel that in working for equal rights for Negroes, Reverend Martin Luther King is moving too fast. Others think he is not working fast enough. What do you think?" 8% said he's moving too fast. 71% said he's moving at the right speed. 21% said he isn't moving fast enough. And so, you know, when we talk about--when we talk about, like, historically, right, civil rights, not just for African-Americans, but it's the easiest one for us to point to because historically, like, when you kind of--like, there's the most data points around it, and, you know, really, if we were to go by the data and the survey data and what people were really comfortable with, then we would still probably not really be--I mean, we're not really integrated, but we wouldn't have even the civil rights laws we have, right? And I think an uncomfortable reality is when you talk about diversity and inclusion and you talk about creating a truly diverse and inclusive working environment, it can only go as far as the majority is comfortable with it going, right? And when you think about the fact that--like, when you look at the civil rights laws, and you especially look--if you look at our present, right, like, we're fighting to maintain some very basic civil rights laws that we achieved over 50 years ago, just over 50 years ago, like, and we haven't really made, in terms of legislation, much progress since then. In fact, again, we're fighting just to keep what we established 50 years ago, and really, if you think about historically, what we fought to get 50 years ago, we should have already had, like, 50 to 60 years before that. And so, you know, I think that's--like, again, just kind of pointing to your point--like, really reinforcing your point around the fact that, like, it's not--it's not about making people comfortable. It's not about, like, just kind of checking a box, and ultimately, it's gonna take all of us, but the majority, to drive and make sure that we're actually moving forward. It can't be the responsibility of the marginalized to move the needle. We don't have the numbers. We don't have the power.Ade: Facts.Zach: So that's number three. I'm volleying it back to you.Ade: Okay. I think I'm gonna expand on a point that I made at the end of my last--my last rant. So diversity and inclusion is all of our responsibility. It is not a position. It is not--the term Chris Moreland used was a function, and it's also not about how good it makes individual people feel. It's not about the money that it makes for the organization. Like, sure, yes, there are stats out there that show how good it is to have a diverse workplace, but--and I'm starting to realize that it's really not a common thing or a common opinion anymore to do things because they're the right thing to do. There has to be a cost-benefit analysis on this, and that's trash.Zach: That's really trash.Ade: Yeah, I don't--I don't know what's happening. Maybe I shouldn't say that. I know what's happening. It's capitalism.Zach: Right.Ade: But the point is that diversity and inclusion is about you as the individual respecting the whole of other people who are individuals in your workspaces and recognizing when there are individuals who aren't welcome in your workplace and doing something to change that. Even beyond what it means to be an ally. You are actively doing the work of being a good human being and encouraging others in your workplace to do the same. I think I--when we were working on the Disabled At Work episode, I read a story about a guy who got a job working at one of these big tech companies, and he just knew it was gonna suck, right? Because when he had interviewed there, he did not see anybody who was wheelchair-bound as he was, and he had a very large electric wheelchair, and he was like, "I can't turn it down because of the money, but I feel like this is not going to be great." But he then told stories of how everybody was inclusive. They would ensure that he could get his scooter up and down these hills in San Francisco. They would ensure that he wasn't just stuck being wet when it rained or that he could have a standing desk as opposed to the lower desk that wouldn't work for his electrical chair. So there were all of these different parts of what it means to be inclusive, and not just empowering and recognizing the diversity in your coworkers, but also saying--taking it a step further and being like, "I'm right there with you." Like, "Whatever it is that you need in order to feel comfortable in this space, in order to feel human in this space--" Like, we gotta be here at least 8 hours a day, dogg. Like, the least we can do is ensure that you are your whole self while you're here, and I think that is such a significant thing to highlight. It's such a significant thing because it very, very easily goes unspoken that you have a responsibility to your coworkers to not just be kind but be supportive.Zach: You know, I think a large part of diversity and inclusion just comes--like, a large part of it is driven by empathy, right? Like, really--and I know that Chris talked about this too in the interview. It was just about, like, understanding someone's story. Like, building a connection with them. Like, really understanding them. It's challenging for me though, because, like--and I really--I love what Chris is doing, not only at Vizient but with his own start-up--with his own start-up at Storytellers, you know, but I don't have to hear your story, right, like, for me to treat you and recognize that you're a human being, you know what I'm saying? Like, I shouldn't have to. I get it. I get it from a relationship-building perspective. Maybe I need to hear your story for us to, like, really build trust, but I shouldn't have to hear your story for us to, like--for me to just empathize and recognize that you breathe--you're breathing and walking, or--you're breathing and existing and having a human experience just like me. It's heartbreaking, to be honest, when I think about it like that. But okay, cool. So last one. I think I'm--I think it's on me.Ade: Most definitely.Zach: All right. So really kind of pigging--piggy-backing off of my first point, but it's really important. Ayo, if you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Say it again. If you don't have inclusion, you don't have diddly. Listen, it's not enough for organizations just to hire non-majority people, right? Because often times if you look at the turnover rate of non-majority employees, they're significantly higher than majority employees, and if you do a cross-analysis with non-majority turnover and minority representation, you'll see some connections--you'll see some connections there, right? Like, you'll see in organizations that are not truly inclusive, that do not have representation and some level of power, distribution of power for non-majority people, those organizations struggle to retain non-majority talent, and I think something to continue to keep in mind--organizations, I'm talking to y'all--listen, man, these gener--like, millennials and these Generation Z, the people coming behind us, we're aware. Like, we pay attention, and we're sensitive to that. Like, we peep game. Like, we're gonna look and be like, "Oh, there's no--there's none of me here. I don't see myself here. Okay, so I know I probably got only so much time to go before I gotta find somewhere to be," or when something goes wrong or they feel like they're not getting the coaching that they need or they're not getting the development that they need or they're getting passed over for promotion, if they don't feel like they can talk to somebody and they're not represented in the decision--in that pool of people that actually make the decisions and make the company grow and grow, then they're not gonna feel like they can talk to anybody, and they're gonna leave, right? They're gonna be even more discouraged to, like, even try to stay, because they'll be like, "For what? I'ma be the--I'm the only person here." They're not gonna be as comfortable when it comes to networking and trying to build relationships and--Ade: Correct.Zach: Right? Because they don't know who they can talk to. Like--and then, like, many of us, we're the first people from our families in Corporate America. That's my story. Ade, is that your story?Ade: Like, only one.Zach: Exactly. [laughs]Ade: Solo dolo.Zach: Solo dolo, and so, like, ayo, like, inclusion is important, and I guess part B to this one is listen, diversity of thought by itself is not real. Okay? That's right. I'm giving y'all two, so we got six now. Diversity of thought is not--diversity of thought on its own is not real. It's a term that some group of people in some laboratory made up just to kind of pat themselves on the back and create diversity where there really isn't any.Ade: Not a laboratory.Zach: [laughs] They made crack and diversity of thought in the same place. What's up?Ade: I am...Zach: JJ, give me them air horns right here. [laughs]Ade: Okay. Okay, [?].Zach: Nah, but for real though, like, it's not real. Like, so diversity of thought is as relevant as diversity of experience, and if you look at American history, experiences are sharply divided along racial, gender, and sexual orien--lines of sexual orientation. Ade, you got another one?Ade: Just a final thought.Zach: Do your thing.Ade: I think that paying lip service to diversity is almost worse than not doing anything and not paying attention to diversity and inclusion in the first place, because you--when you pay lip service to diversity, you delude people into thinking your workplace is a safe space and that they can come to your jobs and bring their own selves and come and do what they love to do for you. When you don't even pretend, it lets everybody know who to avoid. When you pay lip service and you end up being these ultra-toxic, ultra-just all around disgusting places for people, it's almost heartbreaking, right, because people want to come into these places and do good work and go home and love their families, and instead they come into these places, you gaslight them, pretend that nothing is actually happening when, you know, they're facing all of these micro-aggressions, they are being passed up for promotions, their careers are stalling, and they have no allies and no way out. It's a pretty abusive relationship, I'd call that, and even further than that I would say that, you know, you're actively oppressing them in that scenario. So I say all of that to say that if you know that you have no investment whatsoever in diversity and inclusion and the success of everybody--and the growth, too, of all of these folks, then just leave us alone. Love us or leave us alone. That's all I ask.Zach: No, real talk though. No lukewarm DM--no lukewarm stuff, right? Be hot or cold. Either you're in or you're out.Ade: The man came through with a word from the church for y'all.Zach: [laughs]Ade: Don't think I didn't notice, Zachary.Zach: [laughs] Man, okay. Well, y'all, so this has been a dope B-Side, just sharing our thoughts about the interview with Chris Moreland. Really enjoyed him, and yeah. Ade, anything else? Do we want to do Favorite Things? Are we good?Ade: My Favorite Thing right now--we can if you have something.Zach: I got something. Go ahead, yeah.Ade: Okay. Okay, so my current Favorite Thing is the voice of a young reggae artist known as Koffee. Love, love, love--I have just been listening to her on repeat lately and finding out--finding her music, where I can find her, but amazing. I love her.Zach: That's what's up.Ade: That's it for my Favorite Things.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, you know--Ade: Oh, wait. I lied.Zach: Keep going. Go crazy.Ade: Sorry, one other Favorite Thing. I have this book I'm currently reading. It is the AWS Certified Solutions Architect Study Guide.Zach: Okay. [laughs]Ade: Yeah, it's my second Favorite Thing. It's just a personal--as a reminder to myself to keep working.Zach: I respect that. Okay, okay. I have one Favorite Thing, and this Favorite Thing, it's--you know, it's something that I partake in every day. It's actually a beverage, and this beverage--this beverage is called kombucha.Ade: Oh, I thought you were gonna say water. I was about to be like--Zach: [laughs] No, no, no. I definitely do drink water every day though, and shout-out--ayo, if you're listening to this, go ahead and get yourself some water. I don't care what time it is. Ayo, get some water and take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip.Ade: Take a sip.Zach: Take a sip. Okay, so--[both laugh] Okay, so--Ade: Some ASMR peer pressure for your head top.Zach: That was incredible. Yo, we should actually do an ASMR episode of us just, like, drinking water quietly. [whispering] "Ah." [like his thirst was quenched, laughs]Ade: No. Let's move forward. [laughs]Zach: "Ah, these ice cubes." We could, like--no, but seriously though, 'cause we got these--these mics are pretty good. Like, we could just take--like, make sure the ice hits the glass. Clink, clink, clink. You know what I'm saying? It's, like, all soft. All right, so listen here. Kombucha--and please don't--y'all, don't kill me in the comments if I'm saying it wrong. I'm country. Forgive me. It is a fermented, slightly--only slightly--alcoholic green or black tea drink, okay? It is so good. Like, think about it like--it's like a soda. It's like a healthy soda, right? And there's--Ade: [?]Zach: Say it again?Ade: I wouldn't go that far, a healthy soda.Zach: You wouldn't go that far? It's like a healthy soda.Ade: No, it's not.Zach: It's carbonated. It has some bite to it.Ade: You know what? You're right. Who are me to disagree with your Favorite Thing? My bad.Zach: [laughs] It's so good though, y'all, and it's like--and so, like, you know, it comes in all kinds of flavors. You can--and it's a fermented tea, right? So you take the tea, and it's fermented, and then you put, like--you know, you can put whatever you want in there to flavor it. So, like, I'll--my favorite flavor is ginger-ade. It's like ginger and lemon and honey and fermented, like, fermented with the kombucha. Man, it is so good, and it's low-calorie, right? So, like, a bottle--like, the same amount of this drink that would be, like, I don't know, 200 calories in soda is, like, 50 calories. And it's good for your digestion, so it helps keep you regular. That's right, we're talking about health. We talk about wellness on this podcast, so part of wellness is making sure that you're regular. Come on, Ade. You know what I'm talking about.Ade: Please leave me out of this narrative.Zach: [laughs] But it's important, y'all. It's important. It's important to be regular, and so anyway, kombucha, it helps. It has those live cultures and bacteria for your stomach, and it's just delicious. It's just so good. So yeah, that's my Favorite Thing. I don't have a brand, 'cause we don't have no sponsors for kombucha yet, just like, you know, Capital City Mambo Sauce ain't wanna show us any love, but we still love y'all. It's okay, it's okay, but I'm not giving no more free ads, okay? So I'm not gonna talk about the brand. I'ma just say I like kombucha. Or is kam-buka? What is it?Ade: I'm pretty sure it's kombucha.Zach: Okay, cool. I just wanted to make sure I said it right.Ade: But then you said it really, really wrong, so I really don't know if you saying it right in the first place even counts.Zach: [laughs] Dang, that's jacked up. You're supposed to be my peace.Ade: No, sir, I'm not. Candice would have my head.Zach: [laughs]Ade: I just--first of all, that was a setup. Secondly--I forgot everything I was about to say because I was--I was so startled and taken aback at that--at that statement, wow. Candice, if you're listening to this, I don't want [?]. That is all.Zach: Candice gonna show up--Candice gonna show up to D.C. with that Yao Ming on her all 'cause of me being silly, and I apologize.Ade: All of the choppas just aimed in my direction, and I want none of it. I'm good.Zach: Yeah, nah, 'cause I'm joking. It's jokes, it's jokes. Candice don't listen to this podcast.Ade: Wait a minute. Now [?].Zach: [laughs]Ade: All right, y'all. That does it for us on Living Corporate. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Please make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and please subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question for us that you'd like us to read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. We're also taking any wins that you've had lately. We're taking any [refuse?], any thoughts that you'd like to share with us. That's it for us. This has been Ade.Zach: And this has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

Zach and Ade celebrate Living Corporate's 1-year anniversary in this very special episode! They reflect on everything that's led up to this point, read a few user reviews, and so much more. Ade also shares her personal journey navigating the STEM field for the first time.Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach.Ade: And it's Ade.Zach: And you're listening to Living Corporate. Now, listen, it's a really--what's the word? A special episode, and I feel like there should be, like, some "Tony! Toni! Toné!" playing. Ade: Why though?Zach: It's our anniversary. Not you and I. Well, in certain ways, yeah. Really the anniversary--yeah, but the anniversary of the show, right? Like, we've crossed the 1-year mark as a podcast, as an organization. That's pretty cool, right? Ade: It's pretty dope. I think this is the longest-running creative project I've ever been involved with, which is saying something, so shout-out to us. Zach: Man, super agree. Definitely shout-out to us, and yes, it's definitely been--definitely the longest engagement--I keep on using all of these consultancy words, and it's funny because my boss at my job keeps on talking to me--shout-out Juliet. I see you. Keeps telling me not to use all these consultancy words, but see, what's hard for, like, me to articulate at work is that I genuinely like words, but I'm still kind of--you know, I don't want to say, you know, [Ur-ish?].Ade: I know--I know what you're getting at.Zach: You know what I'm saying, but at the same time though, right, I just like words, but they don't get the "ish" side of me at work because of--because of reasons, right? So it's tough, but anyway, yeah. This is the longest project that I've been a part--creative project that I've been a part of as well, and it's dope. Like, I think it's crazy because if you look, like, over this past year, like, you'll see, like--I think what should make both of us proud is, like, a year of consistent engagement though. Like, it's not like, "Oh, we did it," and then we stopped, and then we did it and we stopped. Like, it's been a year of consistency, you know what I'm saying? Ade: Which is really a shout-out to you, because goodness knows that consistency is something that I lack in spades, but yeah. Without you there would have been very little consistency on my part, because yikes.Zach: Nah, nah, nah.Ade: We'll get into that.Zach: Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that, but nah, actually, I'ma tell you, the crazy thing is that it was--what I was able to see in you and, like, the potential of this space that pushed me to be, like, really aggressive, right? And attentive and, like, not--and kind of unrelenting and neurotic in how we would, like--Ade: I don't know if that gives the right connotation or that has the right--Zach: No, it's conno--no, but I'm saying, like, there were times where I'd know that, like, I would get on your nerves. Like, I'd be like, "Ade, we gotta record. Ade, we gotta record. Let's go. Let's go," and, like, we're recording, like, multiple episodes at a time, and just me working, you know, just being, like, obsessive. Like, there's a certain level of that, right, that was involved in this, and I think when I talk to people who created something and are building something, like, there's a certain lev--like, a certain bit of it. Like, not to the point where it's toxic, but a certain level of just obsessive, like, it's all you're thinking about and doing for a certain season of your life, at least just to get it going. And I don't feel like it's like that now. I feel like we've kind of--like, we've found a certain pace and rhythm and sweet spot, but to get something off the ground takes a lot of effort.Ade: And I think for me that actually works for who I am as a person. I like immersion, and I've found that with anything, I have to live, breathe, swim, eat, everything consume a particular energy if that's what I need to focus on at that time, otherwise it's never gonna get done, and I'm also not the sort of person who gets annoyed by persistence, because it's something that I'm seeking out. It actually attracts me in a way to all of the things that I want, and that people who--in places where I find consistency and persistence and passion, those are the things that inspire me, those are the things that have brought me back to Living Corporate, even when I have not been in the most ideal situations. Because it's very easy to fall into the trap of complacence or just being like, "You know what? Everything is overwhelming, and I would like to just bury myself under the earth's crust and just, like, lay here for a second."Zach: That's real.Ade: But I've found that on the other side of that discomfort is everything that you're looking for, and you just have to keep pushing to get at it, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it makes a lot of sense, and I feel the same way. And it's funny because, like, when I was talking to Rod with The Black Guy Who Tips--and this was, like, a while ago, but, like, he gave advice on the mic and off the mic, and we were talking about the fact that he said, "Man, you know, the biggest advice I can give you is just to keep going," he said, because so many people will get started with podcasting and, like, you know, they'll, like, do a couple shows and then they'll--you know, they'll get tired and be like, "Oh, I'll catch up next week. Oh, I'll catch up next week," and, like, you look up and they've been gone for, like, three months, or, like, people will, like, really put a lot of effort on the front end to, like, promote the podcast, and then you look up and it's, like--it's only been, like, two months and they're done. And I know for me, part of the reason so far--and again, it's only been a year, right? It's not like--we have time. We're still really babies, right? Like, we have tons--we have a long way to go. [laughs] But I know for me it's--like, the biggest fear kind of going into this was that, like, we would start, and we would, like, start off really big, and then we would fizzle out. So, like, I'm just really excited and thankful that we're here and, honestly, you and I, like, we're kindred spirits in a lot of different ways. Like, 'cause everybody doesn't like someone who's, like, persistent and, like will follow up and, like, hold you accountable and be like, "Hey, let's go." Right? Like, people don't like that, so the fact that, like, your vibe resonates with that is dope, because it's not common. So I'm really excited and thankful, like, for you to be here for real. Ade: Thank you. And just the last thought that I have on that is that I've found--and hopefully this helps somebody, but I have found that when I reach the valleys of my energy reserves and I'm completely tapped out, it helps having somebody like you, almost like a body double, because--I was gonna use a phrase.Zach: Nah, say it. [laughs]Ade: Ain't no punk in my blood. So I will be damned if anybody else, like, next to me is outworking me and we have the same level of commitment, so if you're willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, I'm willing to be up at 10:00 p.m. to record, and if you are willing to cram yourself into a closet space to record, guess what? I too am willing to cram myself into a closet space to record, right? So there's something to be said for having a partner in your commitment who's willing to, like, go the distance with you, and you can sort of measure yourself and keep pace with that person. Not necessarily saying that you have to be down on yourself when you're not capable of being where they're at, but it's almost like having a guidepost as to where you need to be, and even when your heart isn't in it, you're able to, like, mirror somebody else so that at the very least you're going through the motions until your brain remembers what it feels like to win, if that makes any sense.Zach: No, it does, it does, and it's so interesting, right, because--the last part you said, like, really hit me, 'cause, like you said, "when your heart isn't in it"--I think a lot of times, like, when we do things it's like, "Man, if I don't--if I don't really feel like doing it, then I'm not gonna do it," and it's like, "Man, there's a lot of stuff that I don't feel like doing that I just gotta do." So it's just really interesting, like, when you said, you know, "when your heart isn't in it." And it's--like, it's really important because a lot of times when you're doing something, especially if you're trying to do something and build something over time, you don't always feel like doing it, right? But, like, you just gotta do it. I mean, like, the easiest example is working out. I've been working crazy, so I haven't, and that's an excuse, but I haven't been getting up like I want to that I budgeted in my time to actually work out in the morning. Like, I get up. I have an alarm that goes off at 5:30 in the morning. That's for me to work out for 30 minutes every day. I have, like, a kettle bell. I'm, like, supposed to be doing this kettle bell routine, and I don't always feel like doing it, but, like, I'm not gonna get the results I want if I don't get up anyway, right? And it's like--Ade: A word.Zach: A word. [both laugh] A whole word, but it's true, and, like, you know--Ade: You are dragging me in my hunched-over position and this, like, [inaudible] potbelly I have going on right now.Zach: I'm dragging myself, nah. I mean--just shoot, listen. See, this is what happened. So I dropped weight, and, like--so now I'm able to look down--I dropped weight. Now I'm able to look down and see my belt buckle, so I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I can see myself." Like, "I'm good."Ade: Okay...Zach: Right? But it's like, "Nah." Like, there's more goals than just, like, not being able to see your shoes. Like, you should dream bigger than that. So there's another word for you. Some of y'all are just shoe-starers. You need to be bigger dreamers than that. Keep going. Keep driving.Ade: Drag me. Drag me.Zach: [laughs] Man. So while we were talking, right, I had, like, other things that, like, popped up in my head, all right? So tell me if this is, like, a cheesy joke. So first of all, like, we're not--this is not the topic of [inaudible]--Ade: It is.Zach: It is? Okay. Well, I'm gonna say it anyway. So you were talking about being in the closet to record. Ade: Yeah.Zach: Okay. How crazy would it have been had you been in the closet to record the episode--and I think you know what I'm about to say--Ade: I do. All you had to say was closet. No, please. Finish.Zach: Okay. How crazy--[both laugh] how crazy would it have been if you were in the closet to record the episode of being LGBT at work? That would have been nuts.Ade: You are childish, number one. Number two, that would have been brilliant actually, 'cause I think I was still in the apartment with that alarm that wouldn't quit.Zach: Yes, yes. I remember that spot.Ade: I just want to say that if y'all have been here for this long and you've heard me through the apartment with the alarm that wouldn't quit, the house in D.C. where you may have heard random gunshots in the neighborhood, the apartment in Tysons Corner with all of the, like, zooming cars or that one day I was in the golf room and that one guy had a vengeance against golf balls.Zach: He was knocking the mess out those balls.Ade: He was not--like, just straight up assaulting golf balls, and I was concerned. Shout-out to you. We here. We made it. Zach: We made it, dogg. We're here, and like, yeah. So anyway, I'm just thankful for you. I'm thankful for this. I'm thankful for us. I'm thankful for JJ. It's crazy 'cause we didn't even--like, we didn't let any air horns off. Hopefully JJ--hey, JJ. Listen, man. We're not gonna get sued. Just go ahead and put "Tony! Toni! Toné!" at the beginning of this. Maybe let it loop in the background actually. We ain't--Ade: You know, I actually think this is an occasion for celebratory gunshots. What do you think?Zach: Yes. Hey, JJ. Let them thangs go, bro. [he does]Ade: Brrap-brrap.Zach: [laughs] And some air horns. Put 'em in right here. [JJ does] Yes. Let 'em--yes, man. We out here, man. It's been a year. I want to talk about these stats real quick, man.Ade: Aye.Zach: In our first year we've had, like, 40,000 downloads, fam.Ade: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: That's not bad. Like, for a grassroots podcast with no--Ade: Okay, first of all, don't give me "that's not bad." That's dope as hell. I just--I think you should celebrate everyone. One of the things that I'm taking away from the situations that I've left behind is that celebratory Milly Rocks are an important part of your growth and your development as a person, because celebrating the little wins and recognizing all of your small accomplishments rolls into the part of you that persists, because failure's really demoralizing, and it sucks, but when you're able to, like, go back to past situations and identify all of the ways in which you won and didn't even realize, recognize, or celebrate those things, you're able to be like, "Well, damn. I really am that [person]." Zach: [laughs] That was super funny. Hey, Aaron. [that's me] So look. You know, we've talked about Aaron in our past, and again, listen, I've--I've called our allies Buckys and White Wolves, and the reason why, for those who don't know--Ade: And don't forget Winter Soldiers.Zach: Oh, and Winter Soldiers. And the reason why, if y'all know anything about Marvel, y'all know that the Winter Soldier's name was Bucky, okay, and that the Wakandans called Bucky "the White Wolf" in Wakandan. So Aaron--Ade: By the way, I heard that attempt at an accent. It, uh...Zach: I really--but this is the funny thing about that.Ade: You've been practicing, huh?Zach: No. So this is the thing--actually I started and I said, "Ooh, this is terrible," and I stopped in the middle, right? I did not--I did not complete it. But anyway, Aaron is a--he's a Winter Soldier, okay, and he's also the person--when you look at, like, all of our social media stuff--and we've talked about him before. We've joked that he's our diversity hire, and so Aaron, when you do the transcript for this and Ade said, "I'm that person," make sure that you put person in brackets so the real ones know what you really meant. [laughs, and done]Ade: All of that exposition...Zach: All of that exposition just for that one piece of direction.Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And it's funny 'cause he's gonna listen, and he's gonna be like, "Oh, yeah," and he's gonna do it. [they laugh, and that's exactly what happened] Oh, my goodness gracious. Ade: It's been a year of, like, deep sighs with you. Just, like, a--Zach: It's been a year of deep sighs, but look--but, like, you've gotten your [inaudible] out. [laughs]Ade: [utters the deepest sigh ever] A deep Negro spiritual sigh.Zach: A Negro spiritual sigh?Ade: Or it's an Issa Rae. [https://twitter.com/issarae/status/918611371805282305?lang=en]Zach: All the--all the Dad jokes and not nan a child around here. Pure Dad jokes.Ade: Look. Listen, it just means that you are well-prepared.Zach: I'm big ready. [both laugh] But nah. So, you know, I'm kind of at a loss of words because I'm just thinking about--I'm really thinking about what it took to make a year of content. Like, a year of content, and we've been working. Like, we've had full-time jobs, as consultants no less. Like, man, talk about that. Like, you have a whole new consulting job.Ade: 60-hour weeks. I counted it. I counted and averaged my working hours, and I just want to say that whoever said consulting was an easy gig... you are a liar.Zach: Oh, no. They lied. They lied. Well, this is the thing. It's easy I guess if you trash and [in a hushed whisper] if you're not black or brown. [laughs] Can we be honest?Ade: You know, I mean... all these facts. Like, I don't get to be mediocre at my job.Zach: I've never--yo, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've never--[laughs] No, no, no. So let me be clear. I am not saying that--well, I am saying that white privilege makes your job easier. I'm definitely saying that for you, yes. So if you're listening to this, I'm sorry. Be offended. It's cool. [both laugh] What I'm not saying is that, like, everybody who is white thinks the job is easy, 'cause I do know there are some majority people out here who are working very hard in consulting. Like, they work super hard, but every time I meet somebody and they say their job is easy, like, I've never met a black or brown person who says consulting is easy ever. Have you?Ade: Absolutely not.Zach: Like, never ever. Never.Ade: Ever.Zach: Eva eva, but the thing about it is--what I will say to that--you were talking about how many hours you work. So I don't want to say how many hours I work because there are people who, like, mentor me who listen to this podcast. If I told them how many hours I work, they would coach me. They'd be like, "Hey, Zach. You need to relax. You shouldn't be working that hard." So I'm not gonna say that, but I will--Ade: So maybe you need to relax and you shouldn't be working that hard.Zach: I mean, maybe so, but the point is, like, it's been a grind, right? Like, it's work. It's been work--like, we've been working. We've been working full-full-full-full-time. You don't really take a lot of vacation. I don't take a lot of vacation.Ade: Lol at a lot of vacation. Try any vacation.Zach: Lol at the word "vacation."Ade: Right? And obviously that's not to, like, compare struggles or anything like that.Zach: Definitely not.Ade: It's just, like, trying to give an accurate picture of, you know, just how exhausting this past year has been as well. Like, and as much as it's been a year of amazing triumphs and just wins that we didn't see coming, I'm working on a sleep deficit here, even on the weekends, and that's not something I'm trying to continue for very long, because I understand that sleep is a necessary and essential component of life, and I'm even not trying to encourage the culture that says that in order to, you know, be a good worker you have to show up to work on Mondays talking about how sleep-deprived you are. That's trash.Zach: That's toxic. That's super toxic.Ade: That is trash. Your brain needs sleep. But I also recognize that there are periods in your life where you have to take the L, whether it's the social L, sometimes the sleep L, to get to where you need to be in the long run, and so that's the time that we're investing now for later, and I'm sure all of my full-time workers/part-time hustlers understand what we're talking about.Zach: Straight up. I mean, this is the thing. I just don't know of any, like, entrepreneurs, full-time or part-time, who have made something pop, made the shake, without, like, really, really grinding, and I'm definitely not suggesting that you should be working yourself ragged all of the time, but there are gonna be some late nights. And, like, beyond you working late, I would say heart--more than that, you're gonna have to think a lot. Like, you should probably be more mentally exhausted than you are physically exhausted if you're really grinding at this entrepreneurship thing, because it just takes a lot of mental effort, like, to think through and strategize on how you're really gonna get stuff done.Ade: Right?Zach: Think through how you're gonna use your time, right? 'Cause you can't create more time, and you need sleep, 'cause it would be trash if we got on here talking about you don't need to go to sleep when we be talking about drinking water. Matter of fact, since we brought up drinking water, go ahead--I just hiccuped 'cause I need some water. [both laugh] Grab yourself the nearest cup of water, go to the tap--unless you are in...Ade: Washington, D.C.?Zach: Unless you're in Washington, D.C. or any of these other--if you're in a poor black or brown community. Because of the way that racism is set up and white supremacy is set up, your water probably tastes disgusting. So hopefully--Ade: Not only tastes disgusting, it probably has actual contaminants in it. So just don't do that. [inaudible]. Just drink some water.Zach: So don't--yeah, don't do that part, but maybe go get some bottled water if you can afford it, because the way that, again, white supremacy is set up and capitalism inherently built to destroy you and us. But, you know, if you can drink some clean water, go ahead and drink some right now. That's all I was trying to say. It got kind of dark, but I meant it.Ade: All of them caveats, and I just finished a bottle of water while you were speaking. I needed that.Zach: All of them caveats--all of them caveats. [laughs] But nah, for real though. You've got to take care--you've got to take care of yourself. So let's talk about this. Can we talk a little bit about, like, your journey with the STEM and what you've been learning?Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay.Ade: This is big trash. [both laugh] No, actually this is top two most challenging things I've ever had to do in my life, and this is not number two. I spent some time thinking through how I've been taught to think about myself as a learner, how I've been taught to think about myself in relation to the world around me. I was one of those kids who always picked up concepts quickly at incredibly high levels of abstraction. I could have--and I was very, very young doing this--I remember that when I was a kid, my great uncle, [inaudible], would sit me down in the morning and hand me the morning newspaper--and I'm, like, five years old during this--and we're just reading through the paper in the morning, and we'd say--and we'd talk about it, and he'd give me a little cup of coffee to drink with him. It's probably his fault I'm short, because everybody else in my family is tall, but we'd sit and talk through these incredibly abstract ideas. We're talking through military coups, we're talking through changes in, like, global structures. I'm being more complimentary of my ability to hold a conversation with a grown man who was in the military about these ideas, but I say that to say that I was always socialized to think of myself as an intelligent person. When you are teaching yourself an entirely new body of knowledge that you've never quite interacted with in the same way--I mean, I took, like, Computer 101 class, so I knew, like, what binary code was or what binary was or what the CPU is. I actually had an interest when I was an undergrad in building my own computer from scratch. I really wanted to, like, put everything together because I thought that was really, really cool. I'm not a very tactile person, so I had never worked with anything in that way before. So those were entirely new concepts to me. I don't think I've ever felt so defeated as trying to understand what a four loop or what a wild loop is and why I would use it, or what data structures are, or what an algorithm fundamentally tries to do, and over the course of the last year I have, like, doubted my intelligence. I have sincerely believed that my brain was just broken, and I've just discovered things that were patched over in an education system that wasn't designed to serve me in the way that my brain functions. And I can go on rants for days about this, but I [inaudible] believe that should I ever be blessed with children I'm not letting them be educated in the United States of America, certainly not in the public education systems in which I was raised, in which I was educated, because those systems don't teach you how to think critically or think creatively about problems. They teach you how to think about solutions.Zach: Man. That's so true.Ade: And frankly, that does you a disservice, because one, you need to think about the problem, not necessarily the solution, because through thinking through the problem you are hitting on and thinking through critically all of the ways in which the problem is structured and you're examining your biases about these different problems. Also the fundamental work of thinking through a problem requires you to think through other perspectives, and I think it gives you a level of empathy for others that we don't necessarily get to learn in traditional educational structures. And I like numbering thoughts because I lose track of things really easily, but now I've lost track of several other thoughts that I had. But the point of what I'm trying to say is that I've learned so much about myself. I've learned about learning. I've learned that I'm not incapable of learning. I might be slower at picking up technical thoughts and high-level extraction in the way that other people may pick them up, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a failure or that I'm broken. And I also--I do this thing where I don't quite give credence to the context and circumstances of my situation, and for those of you who are listening, I've been through some ups and downs, and I found myself recently comparing myself to other people, maybe in the meet-ups that I would attend or just--the D.C. tech circuit isn't that large, and just struggling to articulate why it was taking so much longer than other people to get to a certain level in my education, and I had to give myself a break, recognize not only that I was working with an incomplete set of cards, but also recognize that I'm not working on anybody else's timeline but my own. [? will say (something in a foreign language,)] which means that we don't work by somebody else's watch, right? Like, we're not working on the same timeline, and that's okay. So yes, I've learned a wealth of things about myself, about the world, about learning. Did you know that actually--this may or may not work for you, but it's really helpful when you learn things to not stack your learning every single day. Zach: Nah.Ade: Part of what I struggled with was that I thought I have to crank at this five hours every day forever, and actually if you space out your learning--so doing two days on, one day off, then one day on, one day off, and then three days on, it actually gives your brain time to rest, time to create the synapses that allow you to build the blocks of understanding, and it's a lot easier for you to learn when you are doing, like, three fundamental things. When you are sleeping, which I didn't do for a very long time, when you are working out--because exercising is actually a way of enriching your brain--and when you are giving yourself on and off periods of learning. So it's almost like you feed your brain the information, and then you give yourself a break so that your brain can make sense of the information that you just provided it. Zach: But you know what though? I understand that. That makes sense to me, like, in principle, because when you think about, like, working out any other part of your body, like lifting weights, you have to, like, give yourself time to heal, right? Like you'll lift--you're not gonna work out the same muscle group every single day. Like, you're gonna--your upper-body one day. You can work out your legs the next day. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're not gonna just do--you're gonna give yourself time to heal, and, like, that's really interesting though, because when you think about learning and the way that we talk about learning, it's often in the context of, like, "Man, you just gotta repeat, repeat, repeat," like, over and over and over and over, and the other thing that you said, which is so crazy, and something just hit me just now. You said--like, 'cause public schools don't teach us to, like, really talk about problems, they talk about just, like, creating solutions, and we kind of--like, we praise that, right? Like, as a larger society. We praise not being problem-focused, right? Being solution-oriented and, like, thinking through actionable items to solve things, and it's like, man, there's value in, like, slowing down and really understanding the problem.Ade: Right.Zach: And, like, really ruminating on the problem, and it's funny because the next thing you said, which also hit me, was focusing on the problem can really help you grow in empathy. And, you know, I pride myself--I call myself an empathetic person, but I'm not really good at, like, slowing down and focusing on problems and, like, really, like, thinking through and, like, cycling problems over and over and, like, being like, "Okay, what's really--" Like, really, really slowing down and thinking about the problem, and that's feedback I've gotten on my job recently, and I had to--like, for me, like, that was just a gut-check, you just saying that, 'cause I'm like, "Dang, am I really as empathetic a leader as I think I am if I can't slow down and focus on the problems?"Ade: Right.Zach: So that's real. So look, and all of the things you talked about, all of the things you've been learning and you've been picking up, you didn't talk about why you're doing it. Like, what are you trying to do?Ade: At first it was solely because I wrote this list of 23 promises to myself on my 23rd birthday. I was going through this period--right before my 23rd birthday I went through this terrible break-up. It was with this person that I had a relatively toxic relationship with, but I was trying to find the win. I was trying to sift through the relationship and find all of the bits and pieces that added to my life, because I don't necessarily believe that I have experiences for the sake of those experiences or the sake of just having a terrible thing and then getting past it or whatever. I think that I need to learn from everything that happens to me, even if the lesson is "Wow, that person was terrible. Never again." So in compiling this list of promises to myself, I decided I was gonna learn a new thing, and I had just gone to a class that is held here in D.C. called Hear Me Code, where in a fem-centered space, or for people who are feminine of center, you come in, you learn how to write basic lines of code--so you're not really creating a program. You're just learning how to write basic lines of code. The syntax of Python, which is a really, really easy language to read and conceptualize, and I was like, "That is so cool. I really like that. I'm gonna learn how to code." Knowing now what I wish I knew then, that was a really, really dumb thing to do, because when you create this abstract idea or this abstract goal, it's really, really difficult to hit your mark, right? How do you know that you've learned how to code? Could I technically print "Hello, World" to a console in, like, three different languages? Sure, I could. Four now, whatever, but have I reached the level of mastery that it requires to call myself a software engineer? No, I have not, and the gap between those two ideals is so extreme that I almost set myself up in not thinking through what that meant. It is this character-building exercise now for me in that because I'm having to think through all of these really, really difficult things and all of these really, really high-level concepts, it also almost forces me to daily reassess who I am as a person and what I am dedicated to conveying to myself about myself. Yeah, I hope that answered your question. I have a tendency to, like, ramble, which you can see in my code, but--[both laugh]Zach: We both do. Nah, [inaudible]--Ade: You know, but I'm trying to convey an idea here, dammit. [both laugh]Zach: No, no, no. It makes sense to me. I think--I think for me it's interesting because your reasoning and, like, passion behind it is much more mature and, like, what's the word? Just the desire for you to know yourself through what you're doing rather than you being like, "Oh, I want to do X, so I'm learning this," right? There's a story and there's a journey there. So no, it makes sense to me. It's cool, and it's just--you and I have talked about it offline, but I wanted to make sure our listeners kind of heard the "why" behind it. 'Cause we've alluded to you learning this and spending your weekends and your evenings studying and going to class. I wanted to make sure that people knew a little bit more, and I know we'll continue to share as your journey continues on. Let's do this. What else do we want to talk about? What we got? We got, like, about a little over 35, 36 minutes in. Do we want to do--let's read some of these reviews, yo.Ade: Okay. You're not seeing me. You may be hearing the ash on my hands, but this is the Birdman hand rub.Zach: I hear--I hear the [?]. How are your hands so small and so ashy? That's crazy.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow.Zach: That mug sound like *shaka-shaka-shaka*.Ade: That attacked my character.Zach: Shaka-shaka-shaka Khan.Ade: Wow. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.Zach: [laughs] That sounds--they're so ashy. Let me see--let me see.Ade: I just want you to know--nope. No, no. You don't need--you don't need to see. I washed--in my defense, dear listeners, I washed my hands before I got on this call because I have been dealing with a brood of approximately fifty-'leven children in this house all day, and, like, half of them were sick and gross. So I had to wash my hands.Zach: Oh, I feel that. That's crazy that you said "brood." Let me--but you know what though? We have these mics. The mics are pretty sensitive, so let me just see. Let me see, 'cause I just put lotion on my hands. My hands really--they should sound like two wet slices of ham rubbing together.Ade: Okay, yuck.Zach: [laughs] 'Cause that's how moist they are. So I said something moist--Ade: Mucho yuck.Zach: And then I said moist. Okay, here we go. Let me see. Nah, that sounded like a little bit of sandpaper running together as well. Okay.Ade: I didn't even hear anything. [same] This is trash.Zach: [laughs] Well, I can hear it in my mic. That's funny. Let me see. Hold on. Y'all hear that? No? [that time I did] Nothing?Ade: Nope.Zach: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. I'm moisturized over here, baby.Ade: Wow. So now I'm going to get on here sounding like Ashy Magoo.Zach: Not Ashy--not Ashy Magoo.Ade: There is--there is no justice in the world honestly.Zach: That's crazy. And can I keep it a buck with you? I haven't actually put lotion on my hands all day. I'm just naturally moist.Ade: All right. Okay, well, that's my time. I have to go. I must go. [?]Zach: [laughs] Let's go ahead and read some of these reviews.Ade: All right, bet.Zach: This one is from--first of all--hold on. Before I just get into reading reviews, right, let me put, like, an actual, like, intro and reason as to why we're doing this. We haven't read one review in the past year, and we have over 100--we have 127 reviews on iTunes, and then we have, like, a handful of other reviews, like, on our other spots where we publish our podcast, and so we just want to, like, thank and shout-out some of these reviews, man. So, like, I'ma read one, and then, Ade, I don't know if you have yours up, you want to read some, but I'ma start--Ade: I'm going there now.Zach: All right, dope. All right, so this one is called "A Breath of Fresh Air." That's the title, and it's from E from D.C. "Definitely a podcast worth listening to. Being a person of color in corporate is sometimes difficult to navigate because you may not know many others like you who have managed to lead a corporate job. You may be the first in your family working corporate, or you're just trying to figure out what your corporate identity is. Thank you for creating this podcast for us." Thank you, E from D.C. Shout-out to you. Thank you so much.Ade: Shout-out to you.Zach: Shout-out to you. Let me--let me read one more, and then I'ma let you go. This one--this one is from Jonathan Jones Speaks. "Built For This." "Their voices are made for podcasting." Uh-oh. "I love how you both feed on each other's energy, bringing on guests that add tangible insights and tangible instructions. Your stories are transparent and transformational. Continue to educate and elevate." Thank you, Jonathan Jones, from the Speak Your Success podcast. Thank you, brother. I appreciate you.Ade: All right. So I'm gonna--I'm gonna go with two that are back-to-back. So the first one is from Lee Cee Dee [?] titled "Amazing Guests and Content." "For a podcast that's fairly new, Living Corporate came out the gate very strong." Thank you. "The topics are so relevant to working millennials, and the guests are amazing. The first episode will always be so memorable and poignant to me, but also check out the mental health and LGBT episode as good places to start." Thank you, Lee Cee Dee. Next one. This is from Mixed Girl Maine. The title starts, "This is for us, being corporate while." It reads, "Thank you for this podcast. I am a former senior [?] manager of HR and an operations manager in the tech field. Being both the only or one of the few [?] managers and typically the only woman in upper management, I have felt for many years there was no community for me." We got you, girl. "This podcast is my community. It speaks directly to me, my experiences, and since my corporate career ended last year with difficulty, I just wish I discovered this well before this week. Keep it up. This is amazing."Zach: Man, I love that. Like, we'll just stop right there. I love--I love the fact that we've created something that people actually listen to and actually find value in. Like, I could tear up. I could cry a little bit to be honest. Like, that's awesome.Ade: This--why haven't we done this before? I truly--Zach: 'Cause we're trash, Ade. [laughs] 'Cause we are wack.Ade: I've never, like, gone looking through--Zach: I've skimmed a few, but I haven't really taken the time to, like, read and [?] on some of these reviews. Like, these are beautiful. There are some others on here that are just so--and some of 'em are long.Ade: I love how Candice came in repping the gang. Like, she was like "gang gang" out here.Zach: She definitely came in gang gang gang. She said, "I might be biased 'cause it's my husband, but yo, this podcast is fire." I said, "Come on, baby. That's what I'm talking about." She's my peace and my reviews.Ade: Oh. Well, then. Look, listen, I hear you.Zach: The "be his peace," that mess gotta stop. I literally--I be wanting to throw stuff when I see those little posts.Ade: I just personally--all right, well, I'm just gonna leave that alone. I'm gonna leave that alone.Zach: [laughs] I saw somebody--so I'ma say--I'ma say this joke because I feel like--'cause we're essentially a D&I podcast. Well, really we're an I--we're an inclusion and diversity podcast, but anyway, that's for another time. I saw some post that say, "My Latinx ladies, instead of trying to Hispanics, you need to be Hispeace."Ade: Oh, my God. First of all...Zach: [laughs] I said, "First of all--"Ade: That is terrible.Zach: That is trash. I was like, "First of all--"Ade: Secondly, [?]. Be Hispanic.Zach: I said, "First of all, please be Hispanic." First of all, Hispanic is not a culture, but please embrace your Latinx roots, whatever those may be. No, you will not sacrifice to be that some dude's peace. No. Ade: So here's the funny thing.Zach: Go ahead.Ade: Set his whole world on fire. I'm joking actually. [?]Zach: [laughs] Set his whole world on fire? That's super--so, like, do the opposite. Be his destruction in this mug. Wow. No, but, you know--Ade: Don't take my advice, y'all. I'm not straight. I have no relationship advice for anybody. All right, moving forward. JJ, cut all of that out.Zach: Moving forward. No, no. He's gonna keep it in. This is gonna be funny.Ade: Oh, boy. Oh, boy.Zach: So what else do we want to do here? So let's go ahead--you know what? You know, we ain't gotta give 'em everything. Let's stop. Let's stop right here, okay? I do have an announcement though before we get up out of here.Ade: Oh?Zach: Yep, yep, yep. So you've been rocking with us--if you've been rocking with us for any amount of time, you know that Living Corporate is not just a podcast. We actually have a blog. We have a newsletter. We have giveaways.Ade: All that.Zach: We have all of that. We have a lot of things going on, and I'm really excited to announce the fact that Living Corporate is now ready to expand our writing platform. So you should be expecting WAY more written content at a much higher and consistent clip than you have in the past. We have a team of writers. Like, these are people who are actively in Corporate America, focused and passionate on diversity and inclusion, focused--they have experiences in just being other in these majority-white spaces. We have some folks--I don't know if y'all remember--y'all should remember--Amy C. Waninger. She came on, and she was our guest for the Effective Allyship episode. She's actually one of our key contributors, key writing contributors, for Living Corporate, and so--Ade: Shout-out to Amy.Zach: Shout-out to Amy, man. Shout-out to Amy, yeah. Like, straight up. Love to all of our writers, and just really excited to tell y'all. So, like, you know, I think it was--I don't know. I guess whenever we had, like, our last random episode. It was, like, in the New Year, I think. I don't know if it was, like, the New Year or if it was, like, a New Year's Resolutions episode, but we talked about "Hey, we got more--we got, like, more content. Like, we have more stuff coming." Or maybe that was the Season 2 Kickoff. Maybe that's what it was. Kind of running together, but the point is we talked about the fact that we had more stuff coming. We were gonna wait until it was ready, and so, like, I'm just really excited to say, like, it's ready. Like, it's almost April. We've been, like, lying in the cut just getting our content together. So for all of my creators, y'all know how it goes. You don't want to just kind of jump out there. You want to make sure you have a little bit in the tuck. So we have it already, and we're just excited, so make sure you check us out on livingcorporate.com--I'm sorry, living-corporate.com, please say the dash, 'cause Australia is still trippin'.Ade: Big trippin'.Zach: They big trippin' to be honest. Yo, also--now, this is not a current events podcast, but yo, my man who busted the egg against my mans head though. Crazy. Ade: Egg Boy for president of some country that's not this one.Zach: Shout-out to Egg Boy. Yo, and also--hold on. So we can make sure that we're being fair, also shout-out to--shout-out to the Muslim woman who confronted Chelsea Clinton in a respectful but intentional way about her showing up at that vigil though. Shout-out to her too.Ade: I--I have some thoughts--oh, let's get offline. I have some thoughts.Zach: You have some thoughts? We need to really actually--we need to actually have a podcast episode very soon about being Sikh and Muslim in the corporate space.Ade: I'm down for that.Zach: Like, we need to--like, we need to, like, really get on that, like, for real. Like, that needs to be an episode that we drop very soon, because the level of just, like--man, just the bigotry, dogg, and, like, I don't think people really understand that, like, Islamophobia is definitely tied into white supremacy. It's just crazy, and, like, I just--man. And it's crazy to say I can't imagine, 'cause I can, which is sad, 'cause we're black. So it's like I can definitely directly understand and empathize and sympathize with how these people feel, 'cause it's like, "Man," but it's just nuts, man. Like, it's just crazy. Like, we've got to talk about this. Okay. Well, shoot. Let's see here. Before we get up out of here, Favorite Things? Ade: Sorry, I had to cough for a second. Um, Favorite Things, Favorite Things, Favorite Things. I didn't realize we were gonna be doing this. So my current Favorite Thing is the console.log function in Javascript. Now, for those of you who do not know, console.log allows you to print something, anything, to the console, which is where you get your feedback about how your code is doing, and I know that debuggers exist, but the way I first learned how to identify where my code wasn't quite working correctly was just by inserting a console.log function into my code, and so shout-out to that beautiful, beautiful, beautiful piece of technology that eliminates the dark for me. How about you?Zach: So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Jordan Peele. He's a beast, dogg. Like, he's super cold.Ade: Have you seen Us?Zach: I did, and actually, let me take that--well, nah--yes, actually, I'm gonna go ahead and still say my Favorite Thing is Jordan Peele, because he gives space to a very chocolate, all-black family in a major motion film. Ade: Which you wouldn't think it would be surprising to see a family that have consistent skin tone amongst them not having one random mixed-race daughter with two black ass parents. That is not the case, as the history of American television has taught us.Zach: I'm saying. Like, and they're so--they're dark. Like, they're dark, and they're--it's just beautiful. So yeah, you know, Jordan Peele is, like--he's my nod for Favorite Things this week because--and I'm not saying Favorite Things as if Jordan Peele is not a person. He's a human being, but what I love about--what I love about Jordan Peele is, and, like, what I really aspire to do is to, like, create platforms for other people to shine. That's, like, really my passion, right? Like, creating platforms for other people to shine. Like, Living Corporate, I love Living Corporate because--and it's my passion, it's my heart, because we're creating this platform to, like, highlight the humanity and, like, the perspectives and affirm the humanity of people that often get ignored. Like, he's doing that with his work, and I did see Us. This is Us. Is it This is Us or is it just Us?Ade: It's just Us.Zach: It's just Us. Goodness. Yeah, This is Us makes me cry. Not the show, just the trailers of the episodes make me cry. That's why I know I can't watch the show.Ade: Hm.Zach: I know. I'm very sensitive. So Us is amazing. Lupita though? Ayo. She bodied that. She KILLED it. Oh, my gosh. But, like, and I knew she was--like, look, I'm not--I knew Lupita was a solid actress. I didn't know she was that cold though, so forgive my ignorance. Ade: You are apparently not forgiven, because here you are.Zach: Man. Yo, when I tell you--that performance though, and I reckon--now, look, she is--she is classically trained. She is a--she is a thespian. Like, she didn't just pop up out of nowhere. Like, she's been--she's been working for years. Like, she's been building her craft for years, so I'm not asleep to that.Ade: Isn't she Julliard-trained too?Zach: Uh, Yale. Ade: Yale.Zach: Maybe she went to Julliard too. We need to get a researcher. We need to get, like, a researcher that we can, like, point to, and they can kind of just mutter stuff in the background and, like, keep us on track, 'cause I don't know. But I do know that she went to Yale. In fact, hold on. I got Google in my hand right now. I'm just finna check it out. Hold on. Did you say Julliard just because, or, like, did you hear that?Ade: I feel like I read something about her being at Julliard.Zach: Well, we about to check it out. Nah, just Yale.Ade: Oh, no. I think it's Viola that was at Julliard.Zach: You right. All right. Well, JJ, cut all of the Julliard stuff out, but the point is--Ade: No, it's okay if I'm wrong.Zach: Okay. [?] Okay, cool, no problem. So JJ, keep all of this wrong stuff in. [both laugh] But no, she bodied that. Like, I was like, "Ooh!" I was shocked. Like, and everybody in the--and, like, you know, when you go to movies with black people--scary movies with black people, you know, it's really not scary and it ends up just kind of being, like, funny.Ade: A whole lot of commentary [?].Zach: A lot of commentary that I was--that for some reason I just thought that I wasn't gonna get this time, as if, like, we all was gonna show up and not be black at the movies, but it was great, and yeah, so that's my Favorite Thing. Okay. Well, cool. Listen, man. Shout-out to y'all for real. Appreciate y'all. Year 1. We are officially 1 years old. We here. I'm not gonna say we're never going nowhere, but we're gonna be here for a while. So get used to us, get comfortable. Lean back. Put your conference line on mute so we don't have to hear you in the background, or unmute yourself to make sure you actually speak up and you're heard. That was--that was kind of, like, a consulting joke, you know what I'm saying?Ade: [not enthused] Yeah.Zach: Yeah... all right, well, thank y'all for joining the Living Corporate podcast! [laughs] We're here every week. You can follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, follow us on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. You can check us out online at living-corporate.com. Please say the dash. Let me tell you something though. Our search engine optimization is so popping now, you just type in Living Corporate and you're gonna see us. Just type it in. "Living Corporate." We'll pop up. Ade: Yerp.Zach: Yerp, and then--yes, also, yes, real quick, shout-out to all of our guests. Shout-out to JJ, our producer. Shout-out to Aaron, our admin, okay? Okay. Shout-out to Shaneisha [?], our researcher. [long pause] Shout-out to all of our writers.Ade: [sighs]Zach: [laughs] Shout-out to all of our writers. Shout-out to our families and significant others, and yeah, this has been Zach.Ade: And Ade.Zach: Peace.

We sit down with Vilissa Thompson, an activist and disability rights advocate who is also the creator of Ramp Your Voice!, a disability rights consultation and advocacy organization that promotes self-advocacy & empowerment for PwDs. She created the viral hashtag #DisabilityTooWhite, spurring people to share instances of erasure of people of color with disabilities from media to medicine. Connect with Vilissa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vilissakthompsonlmsw/Learn more about Ramp Your Voice!:http://rampyourvoice.com/The RYV Syllabus: http://rampyourvoice.com/2016/05/05/black-disabled-woman-syllabus-compilation/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? Now, listen, before we get into the "It's Zach and it's Ade," I just want to go ahead and say Ade, welcome back. I missed you, dawg.Ade: What's good, what's good?Zach: What's good? So listen--and, you know, our topic actually is very serious this episode, but I want to just go ahead and get the jokes out first, because once we get this interview done, I want to go ahead and wrap it right there, right? So, you know, what I love about Living Corporate is we dismantle--we seek, rather, 'cause I'm--let me not say that we dismantle anything, but we seek to at least address openly different stereotypes, challenges, and biases, you know, for people of color and how they really impact folks, especially in the workplace. And I want to talk about colorism really quick. Now, you're gonna be like, where am I going with this? Y'all probably listening to this like, "What are you talking about?" That's cool. So educational point for my non-melanated brothers and sisters out there. My non-Wakandans. My Buckys. My Winter Soldiers, if you will.Ade: Winter Soldiers... okay.Zach: In the black community we talk about colorism, and we attribute certain behaviors to certain black folks of specific hues. Ade: Here we go. Oh, here we go.Zach: A popular myth is that lighter-skinned black people do not answer their text messages. They leave--Ade: Actually, that's very true.Zach: They leave text messages on Read. Their text messages are on swole, as it were. Ade: I can't stand you.Zach: And I want to really recognize Ade.Ade: I only have 250 unread messages. You really can't play me like this.Zach: Ade is--and I'm not gonna--I hate it when people use food to describe women, but Ade is pretty chocolate, okay? She's pretty dark.Ade: You have to fight me after this.Zach: And yet she does not read her text messages.Ade: You're gonna have to run me the fade.Zach: She actually--in fact, just the other day I texted Ade, and she said, "Oh, hey," and I said, "Oh."Ade: It's on sight, I promise.Zach: You want to hit me with the "Oh?" Like, "Funny to see you here." That's what she hit me with, y'all. Like, "Oh."Ade: [sighs] Are you done?Zach: Hey, [in accent] are you done?Ade: [in accent] Are you done?Zach: [in accent] Are you done?Ade: See, you can't even--you can't pull a me on me. Zach: Man, I was so disappointed. I was like--man, I mean, if anything, based on these stereotypes, I should be the one ignoring your text messages. But you know what? For me to ignore Ade's text messages, y'all, guess what? She'd have to text me in the first doggone place.Ade: Wow.Zach: Wow. Whoa.Ade: This is a kind of rude I really did not intend on dealing with on tonight--Zach: So I want to say thank you, because last week we had--well, the last week before last, excuse me, we had Marty Rodgers. You know, it was a big deal. The dude is, like--he's like black consulting royalty in the DMV. You would think Ade would want to be on that podcast episode, you know what I mean?Ade: You're gonna have to fight me. I've decided. I've decided it's a fight to a death.Zach: [laughs] Oh, man. So I'm just thankful. I'm just so--this is me, like, publicly thanking Ade for being here and for texting me back. I don't know--Ade: I just want to say that I'm a good person and I don't deserve this.Zach: [laughs] You know what I think it was? I think it was the fact that we all got back on BlackPlanet for a couple days to check out that Solange content.Ade: Hm.Zach: I think that reset our chakras.Ade: Who is we?Zach: Or our ankhs. I don't know. We don't have--we don't have chakras.Ade: Who are we? I don't--Zach: Us as a diaspora. I feel as if that's--are you not a Solange fan? You didn't enjoy the Solange album?Ade: It has to grow on me, and I understand that that is sacrilegious, but I will say this--Zach: And you're supposed to be from the DMV too? Everybody from the DMV likes Solange.Ade: Let me tell you something. I listened--I waited until midnight. There is a screenshot on my phone of me starting to listen to this album at, like, 12:10, and I think at around 12:20 I was like, "You know what? Some things aren't for everybody." Everything, in fact, is not for everybody.Zach: That's real though.Ade: And I paused and went to sleep.Zach: Really? Wow. You know, I really enjoyed it, but I had to enjoy it 'cause she shouted out Houston a lot on the album. Like, a lot, so I enjoyed it off of that alone. And I'm also just a huge Solange fan, but, you know, I get it. It's one step at a time.Ade: Look, I too--I too am a huge Solange fan. A Seat at the Table is an everlasting bop of an album.Zach: Oh, it is. That's a classic. It's a very good album. It's, like, perfect.Ade: Yeah. This one--this one's just gonna have to pass me by and/or grow on me in 2 to 4 years. I don't know. Zach: You know, it's interesting because--it's interesting because I was used to--based on A Seat at the Table. This is not a music podcast, y'all. We're just getting our fun stuff out the way first. So it's interesting, because as a person who really enjoys Solange's words--like, A Seat at the Table, she had a lot of words. Didn't get a lot of words on this album.Ade: I'm told that it's--the experience is better if you watch the--I don't know what to call it. The visual--Zach: The visual album?Ade: Yeah, the visual album, in conjunction with it.Zach: Yeah, I'm actually gonna peep it. Fun fact. A couple weeks ago I told y'all about me playing Smash Bros., the video game, and I'm in a GroupMe, and one of the guys who I play Smash Bros. with was actually in the visual album.Ade: Oh, really?Zach: That's right, 'cause I got--those are the kind of circles I roll in.Ade: You know famous video players. Video game players.Zach: Yeah. Video game players, yeah. And as a side-note, he is very good at Super Smash Bros., so there. Maybe he'll be on an episode--on the podcast one day. Who knows? We'll see. Okay, so with that, let's do a very hard pivot.Ade: Sharp left turn.Zach: Sharp left, into our topic for the day. So we're talking about being disabled while other at work, and it's interesting because similar to how we brought up the Solange album out of nowhere, I was not really thinking about the fact that we don't really consider the experiences of just disabled people period, let alone disabled people of color at work.Ade: Right.Zach: I'm trying to think. Like, how many times have you worked with someone who was a person of color and disabled at work?Ade: So the thing to also think through here is the fact that there are lots of hidden disabilities.Zach: That's fair. That's a good call-out.Ade: Yeah, so there's a wide, wide range of conditions. Physical disabilities can also be invisible, but there are chronic illnesses, there are mental illnesses, cognitive disabilities, visual impairments, hearing impairments. According to the Census Bureau--apparently the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, applies to or covers approximately 54 million Americans. Of those I'm sure many, many millions are people of color or black people in particular, and so yeah, I don't know how many people--how many people of color I've ever worked with who are disabled or who are living with a disability, but I certainly think that it's important that, as a whole, we think about how to create a more inclusive work culture that empowers people with disabilities that's not patronizing or demeaning or just outright hostile.Zach: No, I super agree with that, and just such a fair call-out to say that there's so many folks that--who do not have visible disabilities but are--who are living with a disability, and it's important that we think about that and we think--we're thoughtful about that too, so again, just my own ignorance, and it was interesting because in preparing and researching for this particular episode, it was hard to find comprehensive data, especially content that was specific to black and brown disabled experiences. I think for me--kind of taking a step back and going back to answer my own question, any [inaudible] I've worked with who have a visible disability--I have not worked with anybody in my career who has had a visible disability, visible to me anyway. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I was reading a piece. It was called "Black and Disabled: When Will Our Lives Matter?" And it was written by Eddie Ndopu. And this was back in 2017. He's the head of Amnesty International's youth engagement work for Africa, and his overall premise was historically black resistance and civil rights and things of that nature has always presented the black body as the point of resistance, right? And ultimately the image of the black form is one of strength and solidarity and able-bodiedness, right? And it's presenting this strong quote-unquote normal body as the ideal to then push up against oppression, systemic racism, and--I'm gonna present this, and I want--I'ma dare you to try to break this form, this body. And in that there's a certain level of bias, because it then automatically erases the idea of different bodies, of disabled bodies, and if that's the case then it's like, "Okay, well, then where do they fit in this narrative? Where do they fit in our story? Where do they fit in our resistance?" And so it's just really interesting to me, because I think it's just kind of calling out our own blind spots. As much as Living Corporate--we aspire to talk about and highlight the experiences and perspectives of underrepresented people in Corporate America. It's season 2 and we're just now talking about being disabled while other at work, and so, you know, it really confirmed for me how little I think about my privilege as an able-bodied person. It's a huge privilege in the fact that we're seen. We think that we're invisible, and in a variety of ways we are, but disabled people of color are even much less visible than we are. Ade: Right, and I also think that now is such a good time to start thinking through the conversations that we should be having, because we live in a time and a space where everyone's rights are sort of up for grabs, and it's especially important that we are holding space and creating a safe space for people who have less privilege than we do, and it's not enough that you give it a passing thought, because then you might as well be sending thoughts and prayers, right? And I think that if you have the ability to do something, it's--and, you know, opinions may vary, but I am firmly of the belief that if you have the ability to do something, it is your responsibility to do something, even if what you're doing is something so simple as having a conversation or amplifying the voice of those who aren't able to have that conversation.Zach: I agree with that, and that's really all the more reason why I'm excited and thankful for the guest that we have today. Her name is Vilissa Thompson. She is a disabled activist, public speaker, educator, consultant, and writer. Yeah, she's putting in the work. And we had a great conversation, and I really want y'all to hear it and check it out, so this is what I'm gonna do. We're gonna transition--wait, you know what? Ade, so I know we said we got the jokes in. We got the jokes in at the beginning 'cause I really wanted to give space for Vilissa, and we're going to. Do we want to come back and do Favorite Things?Ade: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Let's do that. Zach: All right. Cool, cool, cool. So that's what we'll do. So we'll go with our conversation with Vilissa, we'll talk about that, and then we'll get into the Favorite Things.Ade: Awesome, okay.Zach: All right, talk to y'all soon. And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Vilissa Thompson on the show. Vilissa, how are you doing?Vilissa: I am doing great.Zach: We're really excited for you to be here. So today we're talking about being disabled and being a person of color. Can you talk a bit about Ramp Your Voice! and where that idea came from and its mission and--just give us the origin story.Vilissa: Yes. Well, Ramp Your Voice! was founded in 2013, you know, as a way for me to discuss my experiences as a black disabled woman, as a social worker, and just the things that I've just noticed with my professional world as well as personally. When I--a year before that I started blogging more as a social worker blogger that was discussing social work through a disability lens, talking about different issues on that front. When[that wasn't really popular as a profession?] at that time, the profession had just started doing more things online, people coming up with different blogs and different platforms. So at the beginning of that, that really kind of helped me get to where I am when it comes to blogging, talking about the disabled experience from many different angles. So getting that experience [at 12?] led me to create my [inaudible] at 13, and we're 5 years now, soon to be going on 6 in 2019. You know, it has really grown into this organizational aspect to where, you know, I'm able to project myself as a voice within the community that really calls out some of the mess, you know, in a light way of saying it, that happens within the disabled community, as well as getting those who are in the broader society to understand that disability, you know, is very much a facet, you know, in the people, as well as their different identities and experiences. For me basically, I like to call myself a rightful troublemaker, because I don't feel that you're really doing good work, particularly if you're doing social justice, you know, if you're not shaking the table, if you're not ticking off somebody.Zach: Vilissa, I was agreeing with you because I think that, you know, when you're talking about topics around race and gender and really any topic around equity, right, and affirming or empowering disenfranchised groups, often ignored groups, right, like the disabled community, the disabled people of color community. If there isn't some type of discomfort there, then there probably isn't gonna be any growth, right? Like, in any other context when we talk about getting better or growing, like, there's some type of discomfort there, right? So, like, professional development or working out and getting new muscles or just growing as a person. You know, like, you have--you have pains. Having a child, there's pains associated with that. So there's just historically, and just as a matter of life, when you change and pain kind of--they go hand-in-hand, and they have historically in this nation as well. So it's just funny how we often try to avoid that, right? Like, we try to avoid discomfort while at the same time seeking to, like, enhance the platform of others, and it's like that doesn't--they can't go hand-in-hand. Vilissa: And I do want to say that sometimes, you know, changing things starts from within. I know that, particularly within the disabled community, there has been a lot of shake-ups due to, you know, the calling out of the racism that's in the disabled community when it comes to leadership, the kind of Good Ol' Boys club that really, you know, reigns true since, you know, when people think about disability, you know, what usually comes to mind is a white face, usually a white male face, and a lot of the leadership are white disabled men who have a lot of racist, sexist views, who resist the change that is needed, and I think there has been this surgance [sp] of disabled people of color to be able to ramp their voice, you know, in a sense, to talk about the issues that matter to them to bring forth a more diverse understanding of disability history that is not just white faces or white experiences. So I think that part of what I have experienced and others who do this activism work, you know, is shaking the table within to really get the change that you want outside, you know, of your own sphere.Zach: Let me ask this, and I find this--I find this genuinely interesting because, again, I don't believe that I considered the perspectives and the experiences of the disabled and disabled people of color. So, like, that entire community. So for able-bodied folks like myself, just people who aren't conscious of that experience, can you explain to me some of the different ways that unconscious bias, bias and racism, rear its head within the disabled community?Vilissa: Yes. One way is, you know, like I was saying, you know, who is disabled? You know, not really considering disabled people of color. You know, when we see the telethons and the marathons and, you know, the call for, you know, charities, it's usually, you know, white faces, and that, you know, visible erasure of representation allows communities of color to not see themselves, when communities of color, particularly black and native communities especially, have high rates of disability. So that erasure alone is very dangerous, you know, when there's certain racial groups who have a prevalence of disability, and then when you break that down further into the communities of color themselves--you know, I can only speak for the black community. You know, we do have a resistance to, you know, identifying as disabled or calling somebody's, you know, condition disabled, you know? We have these kind of cutesy words for it. "You know So-and-so?" You know, they may think like this, or, you know, "So-and-so may be a little, you know, quirky," or anything like that, and, you know, I think that for me, that has really impacted how I look at my black disabled body, you know, as somebody who's been disabled since birth. I really didn't identify as disabled until I started doing this work, because I didn't know that being disabled had its own identity and culture and pride and that there is a community of people that look like me and people that don't look like me and people who are wheelchair users like myself, people who are short of stature or little people or [inaudible], you know? So that invisibility when it comes to media, when it comes to the work that organizations do, really impacts one's ability to connect to an identity that's outside of their race and gender. So I really think that honestly both disabled and non-disabled people, you know, are both heavily disadvantaged due to that disability. I know that, you know, in coming to this space I see a lot of particularly black folks who are disabled, particularly those who have invisible or not apparent disabilities like mental illness, chronic pain. Those are all disabilities, you know? But we don't call those things that, and it can really create this disconnect in one's body and mind and what's going on within one's body and mind, as well as understanding that being disabled is just as strong of an identity as your gender and your race. So for me, connecting to particularly black disabled women [inaudible] is letting them know that it's okay to talk about your disability, you know? It's okay to talk about your mental illness. It's okay to talk about your chronic pain. It's okay to talk about the lack of medical assistance that you get because you are, you know, a [triple?] minority. You know, I really think that that type of visibility allows those open conversations, allows those community resource sharing or just tips shared or, you know, just plain support to occur. So for me I really want us to all kind of take a step back and say that "Hey, you know, disabled people are the largest minority group in the world and in the country," and we all know somebody with a disability, if it's not us ourselves who are disabled. So being disabled isn't just some identity that doesn't reach home in some way, shape, or form. It does, and I think that's the main disconnect that I see, people not understanding a community that is so vast, so diverse, and it's one where we do know somebody, and to not change the perception that we have about disabled people and the lives that we're able to live. So, you know, that's just kind of the things that I notice, you know, when it comes to non-disabled people, able-bodied people, not understanding things, and what disabled people like myself who do activism work, you know, have to kind of teach you all and also happen to bring you all into the fold for those who are actually disabled who may not at this point or for whatever reasons, usually due to stigma or shame, identify.Zach: In that you shared about being a triple minority, you talked about identity. As discussions around inclusion and diversity become more and more commonplace today, and more centered in pop culture frankly, the term "intersectionality" is used a lot. So can you talk to me about what intersectionality means for you? And I ask that because you shared that you being disabled is an entire identity to itself, and it is, right? It's a part of who you are. It shapes how you navigate and move around this world, how you see the world. At the same time, you are a woman. At the same time, you are a black woman. So I'm curious to know, how do you navigate the intersection of those--and of course those are just three. Certainly you have various other ways that you identify yourself. However, how do you navigate the various points of intersection for yourself?Vilissa: Well, I think that--you know, when I talk about intersectionality, I think what's so critical is that people cannot separate my identities because I won't let them. You know, being black is just as important to me as being a woman, as being disabled. You cannot look at me and just simply divide me into three different parts, you know? Each of my identities has interwoven into this, to me, beautiful fabric of my being, and the world reacts to me, you know, in the ways in which my identities present themselves, you know? Some people may not care that I'm black, but because I'm a woman that's a problem. Some people may not care that I'm a woman, but because I'm a wheelchair user that makes them uncomfortable. Some people may not care that I'm a wheelchair user, but because I'm black, that's the biggest issue. So when I go out into the world, I don't know at times which of these identities people are reacting to, or sometimes I can tell. It depends on, you know, if they're very open about what may make them uncomfortable or what they're, you know, I guess quote-unquote offended by, you know? By my mere existence. So for me, the world, you know, looks at me and judges me on those three primary identities that I have, and they make assumptions about my capabilities, my intellect, my social status, my educational status, you know? Just everything about me, and the one thing I always say about assumptions is, you know, the word assumption has, you know, A-S-S at the beginning of it, so you can make yourself look like an--you know, an unintentional [bleep] by making assumptions. So, you know, I really think that those assumptions have really shaped, you know, my experience, and particularly when I learned about the term "intersectionality," it just really, you know, was like a light-bulb moment. Like, "Oh, my gosh, that makes so much sense," because when I look at myself in the mirror, I see a black disabled woman, you know? I see--and I'm a Southerner. I'm from South Carolina, so, you know, I understand what it means to be in a small Southern town, you know, to live in a red state, to have the type of history that is attached to the South. As a woman I understand, you know, sexism and the ways that women are paid less and the harassment and the sexual assaults that women go through, you know, with our bodies and our mere existence, and as disabled, you know, we experience all of those things, you know? Disabled women, particularly those with intellectual disabled, have the highest rates of experience sexual violence. So in that example, you know, we have the connection of gender and disability. You know, when it comes to being a person of color, their people have the highest rates of police brutality. Over, you know, half of police brutality rates are conducted on, you know, disabled people, and there's a portion of those people who have been, you know, either the survivors or victims of police brutality have been disabled people of color. So in that example you have the race and the disability factor. So, you know, just in those type of statistics alone--and I could go on and on about the disparities when it comes to race, gender, and disability--you really cannot separate someone's experience and the disparities that they may encounter because of who they are.Zach: Let me ask this. You know, in the work that you do with your Ramp Your Voice! and of course as a professional, as an adult, can you talk to us a little bit about how to effectively support disabled people of color in the workplace?Vilissa: Mm-hmm. Well, I know that what my particular work journey has been. It's always unusual, you know, when it comes to how non-disabled people may look at it, but for disabled people it's not really unusual at all. As I said, I am, you know, as a social worker. When I got my MSW in 2012, I had wanted to look at traditional social work routes, and the one thing I found is that the requirements for social work positions, particularly those that deal with case management, DCS or CPS, you know, et cetera, requires you to either have a vehicle or be able to go out to homes, and as a wheelchair user I know that the majority of homes are not wheelchair-accessible, and as someone who did not have the ability to obtain a car because I was on SSI at the time, you know, that [inaudible] was there as well. So I quickly realized that if I wanted to make a niche for myself within social work I most likely was gonna have to do a non-traditional social work route, and lucky for me, I went from being micro-focused, which dealt with families, individuals, and groups, into a more macro focus, which is activism, community building, so on and so forth, and that's what kind of got me into writing and got me into Ramp Your Voice! So for me, many disabled people are like myself where we have these barriers. We have these systemic barriers when it comes to the job requirements. Like I mentioned, you know, being a wheelchair user, and you also have systemic barriers when it comes to government agencies as well. You know, with being on SSI, I knew that I would have to have a job that gave me insurance, because my SSI and my health care--because Medicaid--were connected. So if I was to lose the SSI, that means that I would lose the Medicaid.Zach: So let me ask this. What is--for those who don't know, and myself included, what is SSI?Vilissa: SSI is basically social security. There's two types of social security. SSI is what those who have not yet put into the system get, basically those like myself who are born with disabilities. Basically, like, younger kids whose parents make within the I guess income requirements. I was able to get them enrolled on it. And then there's SSDI, so those of us that work, we put into the SSDI system. So for me, I was on the SSI system because I hadn't put into the system yet. So for me, while I was building my brand, I was still looking for, you know, different types of employment. Luckily I lived at home with my grandmother at the time, and, you know, I was able to stay with her. You know, I had lived with her my whole life, so I was able to stay with her and build up this brand, and then when she passed at the end of 2015, I knew that I would have to get some type of employment. So I, you know, was able to get a job by the end of 2016, and that allowed me to get off of social security, 'cause I had health insurance. You know, that's the unique situation that disabled people endure. These are the systemic barriers. Now, some disabled people are not able to get off, particularly Medicaid, because they have comprehensive health care needs, and private insurance would not pay for some of those extensive health care needs that they have, like having a personal care assistant, someone coming to their home, helping them with their activities or daily living like dressing, bathing, so on and so forth, or they may need certain equipment, you know, that private insurance may not cover because it's, you know, very expensive. So some disabled people are not able to get off [inaudible] at all, and they have to be very mindful of how much income they may have to take in, how that can affect it, either their Medicaid and/or social security, particularly if they're both connected, and what does that look like. So this puts disabled people in the [inaudible] of property, because I know that when I was on social security I was getting several hundred and 30 something dollars a month, which is nothing, you know? To live off.Zach: Right. No, absolutely.Vilissa: Yeah, and that's, like, a month. So, you know, just think about that. For some people, that's their rent, you know? That's their rent payment.Zach: And that's some cheap rent too.Vilissa: Exactly. You know, so I think that what non-disabled people really don't realize is that when it comes to employment, disabled people have a lot to consider, and in some cases a lot to lose. That could put their livelihoods, and at times their lives, on the line. So when it comes to employment, you do have to be very strategic about what kind of jobs you take, what kind of money you take. If you can take money, what does that look like? And so on and so forth. I know that for me, I was willing to do some things for free while on social security because I knew the consequences of taking money while on social security, and that was my main source of income. And that's a lot to take into consideration, a lot, and when it comes to disabled people of color, we have the highest rates of unemployment within the disabled community. Disabled black folks have the highest rates of unemployment in the community. So, you know, it's not only us having these hoops to go through, but also people not being willing to hire us when it comes to looking for employment.Zach: So let's get back on Ramp Your Voice! a little bit. I love the writings and the photos and the resources. Where can people learn more about Ramp Your Voice!, and what all do you have going on in 2019?Vilissa: Well, Ramp Your Voice! is gonna be doing some very collaborative work. Right now I have a speaking agent, where I will be doing a lot of speaking gigs, signing up for universities. So if anybody wants me to come speak, you can sign me up for that. Reach out to me and I can connect you with my agent. And that has been a great experience that just occurred this year, to be able to connect with somebody who understands the vision that I have of my work and my voice and what I want to do with that through more writing. I'm in the process right now of working on my children's book, which is a picture book. This has been kind of like my baby for a very long time, and I'm now in the position to work on it the way that I desire to and bring it to life. Right now I don't have a publisher for that, but definitely looking for one. Right now I'm also looking to writing. I love writing about race, gender, and disability, to intersectionality and different things like, you know, pop media, media representation, health care, social work. So right now I'm just continuing to build the brand, continuing to talk about the experiences from a black disabled woman's perspective, and just really continuing to, you know, cause trouble. Like, one of the things I do enjoy doing is educating, you know, non-disabled folk, particularly those who are professionals in the medical field, the [inaudible] professions field like myself with social workers, therapists, really understanding disability outside of the medical model, which is basically, you know, talking about disability from a diagnosis standpoint as well as the [first-person?] language. We're saying "people with disabilities" instead of the identity-first language, which is disabled people, disabled [inaudible], disabled women, and really getting into the social model of understanding disability, which is more about, you know, disability being a, you know, identity, a culture, a community. So that's kind of what I offer for professionals who really want to ensure that if they're trying to engage with disabled people through their work, maybe through recruiting, you know, for their hiring practices, you know, whatever that they're interested in, make sure that they understand the language, because every community has its particular language that you need to know to be able to better relate and engage with those community members so you don't be out of date and, at times, unintentionally offensive by using outdated terms. So those are the things that I offer that I'm really looking forward to doing more of in 2019, as well as a couple other projects that I can't really say just yet, but just really, you know, expanding the brand, particularly since there's so many great disabled voices out there who are doing incredible work, you know, just making sure that what I'm doing is always fresh and always being welcome to reaching new audiences, reaching new professions and new worlds that, you know, disabled people live in, you know? Just because somebody doesn't self-identify as disabled doesn't mean that disabled people aren't in your organization, aren't in your community.Zach: I appreciate you educating me. I'm sure many of our listeners--and I'm curious though, before we get out of here, do you have any parting words? Any shout-outs?Vilissa: Well, I just--you know, I just really want to thank you for allowing me to be on here. Just know that disabled people are here, and we are not going anywhere, and if you don't know a disabled person, you need to step your game up and really--particularly if you are a professional--see the ways in which your organization, your body of work, is being exclusive--you know, excluding disabled people, and how you can be more inclusive of disabled people, and ensuring that if you're going to include disabled people that they represent vast, you know, gender, race, you know, sexual orientation, you know, identities, because we need more disabled people of color, disabled people of color who are LGBT, you know, in those types of spaces.Zach: Vilissa, I have to thank you for being on the show today. Thank you so much, Vilissa. We look forward to having you back on the show. We'll talk to you soon.Vilissa: Thank you.Zach: Peace. And we're back.Ade: That was an amazing interview. Beyond, I think, inspiring, which I don't think is the term that I really want to use there, but pardon my lack of or access to language at this point. I think Vilissa's story is--it's a call to action, right? It is--and I don't know if everyone has gotten the opportunity to go to Ramp Your Voice! and just take a look around, but there's actually an anthology--I was struggling with that for a second there. There's an anthology on Ramp Your Voice! where Vilissa actually did an amazing job at collecting a black disabled woman syllabus, and I did some work and went through and read some of the articles that I hadn't had access to or read before, and it's amazing. It is a body of work that I think everyone should read, not just because it gives you a really--if you can hear something crunching in the background, that's my dog Benjamin. He wanted to be featured on the--on the podcast today, so he has some thoughts.Zach: What's up, Benji? Yeah, we can definitely hear him. It's all good.Ade: Yeah. So this list has important thoughts. Like, The Stigma of Being Black and Mentally Ill, Complexities and Messiness: Race, Gender, Disability and the Carceral Mind, which was an incredibly, incredibly important read. "How I Dragged Myself Out of the Abyss That Is Depression Without A Prescription," Disabled Black People. Just very, very important works and in many, many different formats. So you have music, audio, video, poetry and fiction, books, articles. I say all that to say that there is a treasure trove of really important and interesting work, so I encourage everyone and will include the link to the syllabus, but I encourage everyone to take a look at this work. I don't even remember where I got started with singing Vilissa's praises, but yeah, amazing interview. Zach: No, super dope, and I definitely appreciate Vilissa joining the podcast. We'll definitely make sure to have all of her information in the show notes. JJ, give me some of them air horns for Vilissa. Go ahead, give 'em to me. Put 'em in here.[air horns] Aye. Thank you, thank you. Part of me wants to let off some of them blop-blops, Ade, but, you know, we're a professional podcast.Ade: Again, all I have to say is that celebratory gunshots are absolutely situationally appropriate.Zach: Man, my goodness. One day I'ma have--one day I'ma have the CEO of my current job, he's gonna be on the podcast, and we're gonna let them blop-blops go. Watch. That might be the same podcast we talk about respectability politics too, just to make some of y'all real mad.Ade: I am here for all of that action, all of it.Zach: I'm here for it. Man, so I'm definitely excited. So I have not read any of the pieces on here. I clicked the anthology, and I see--Ade: Any?Zach: I haven't. I haven't read the pieces on here. I haven't, no. Ade: Even the black feminism or the womanism category?Zach: No. I'm being honest.Ade: Oh, you have some homework.Zach: Oh, no. I have mad homework. I have mad homework. So I'm looking at the anthology. The anthology is requesting content, right? It's requesting content, but then I see right here to your point, there's a bunch of stuff on here. The Harriet Tubman Casting Cripping Up Issue, Aunt Vi, #QueenSugar, Black Women, & Our Disabled Bodies: Why We’re Still Whole, Luke Cage: The Black Disabled Superhero We Need, If I Die In Police Custody. I mean, Why Black History Matters. There's great content here, and really there's no reason for y'all not to check this out, just like there's no reason for me not to check it out further. Amen. Okay.Ade: Absolutely.Zach: Okay. Okay, okay. So let's go ahead and get into these Favorite Things. Ade, why don't you go ahead and go first?Ade: Oh, I just want to say one last thing before we move on. I think that it is incredibly important as we amplify the voices of people of color who are disabled, particularly black people, particularly black women who are disabled, I think it's important that we contextualize black history and the black experience within this paradigm, and I had to sit back and think through, for example, Harriet Tubman, who we know historically had seizures. She was injured over the course of her enslavement and had to deal with severe seizures for the rest of her life, which brought on these visions that she attributed to a religious--like, a sacred experience, but I think of how important it is to 1. contextualize these experiences and 2. fully give Harriet Tubman her due, right? Because if we lose the pieces that really and truly make up who she is, we are not truly honoring her, right? And I think that if we acknowledge that, you know, Harriet Tubman was a black woman, an enslaved woman, a disabled woman, in a time that made no space for any parts of her, I think we really and truly start to understand and give honor to who she was as opposed to having honestly a very surface-level understanding of who she was and magnifying her in a shallow way, I would say. So yeah, Harriet Tubman. Amazing woman. Disabled woman. I cannot sing her praises enough obviously. I mean, duh. Harriet Tubman. But yeah, it's so important that we talk about these things, because it's so easy to gloss over the fullness of who a person was.Zach: Okay. So with that being said, now we're ready for our Favorite Things. Ade, what you got going on? What's your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: So my one Favorite Thing right now is this guy who demanded cuddles and rubs, so he is over here face all in my lap while I try to record. I promise you, he is just big ol' face in my lap. His favorite thing--his favorite thing to do is to either jump right on top of my stomach, all 50 pounds of him, when I'm laying in bed and minding my own black business, or he likes to, when I'm sitting on the couch, literally hop on the couch and put his butt in my face. It's, like, his favorite thing. Zach: This sounds abu--oh, this is a dog. This is Benji.Ade: Yes, yes. There isn't a random man running around in my life.Zach: I was like, "Wait, why is he--he's a grown man and he weighs 50 pounds and he's jumping on your stomach? What?"Ade: I would have so, so many more problems if that were in fact the case.Zach: That is crazy. I was like, "Wait, this is too much going on." Okay, so Benji is your Favorite Thing right now?Ade: Oh, and my other Favorite Thing is the CodeNewbie podcast. I stopped listening for a little while because--Zach: What's the name? Say it again?Ade: The CodeNewbie podcast. Zach: Okay, what's that? What's the CodeNewbie podcast?Ade: It is a podcast dedicated to educating folks like me who are either transitioning into tech or even, like, if you're a CS student in college or whatever it may be, a new grad of either an undergraduate, a master's student, if you were graduating from a boot camp, all of it. It just educates an entire community of learners, and I love it so much. It's, you know, after Living Corporate, my favorite podcast to listen to.Zach: Aye. Okay, that's what's up. First of all, shout-out to Benji and to all the dogs out there. Woof woof.Ade: Not woof woof. Did you just--okay, DMX.Zach: No, DMX would be like--I can't even do it. I can't even do it now 'cause you just put me on the spot. [tries] You know what I'm saying? Like, that would be DMX.Ade: Okay, Lil' DMX.Zach: Yes. ZMX, what's up? So also, you know, we need to start doing our shout-outs, so this reminds me - shout-out to the college-aged people who listen to our podcast, shout-out to the Buckys, A.K.A. the allies, A.K.A. the Winter Soldiers out there. Ade: Oh, my God.Zach: Shout-out to the Wakandans, A.K.A. my true Africans. Shout-out to my Jamaican brethren, who allow us to get these pew-pew-pews off every episode. Thank y'all for the encouragement.Ade: Honestly, I think it's [tolerated?] at this point, but shout-out to y'all anyway.Zach: Shout-out to y'all. Shout-out to the corporate gangstas. Shout-out to Wall Street. Shout-out to the folks that don't have nothing to do, they just listen to podcasts all day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: Shout-outs to those of you who have, in the last 3 days or so, deployed a "per my last email." I see you. I recognize your struggle, and go ahead and CC HR if necessary, [beloveds?]. It's okayZach: Amen. Shout-out to those who drink water every day. Shout-out to y'all.Ade: And if you are listening with us right now, feel free to reach over to a glass of water or a water bottle of some sort and take a sip.Zach: Shout-out to my people--shout-out to all of my black people and all of my white people, A.K.A. all of the people who know they need to wear lotion and all of those who don't really wear lotion like that. Shout-out to all of y'all, and then of course shout-out to all of my co-workers and colleagues who listen to the Living Corporate podcast. Shout-out to y'all. Who else?Ade: You know, it's funny, because I don't really tell my co-workers about our podcast just in case I need to shade them on the podcast.Zach: See? Well, that's what happens when you're not--when you don't live your truth, see? You've got to--you need to tell your co-workers about the podcast. [inaudible]--Ade: So I just need to shade them directly to their faces? Because, I mean, I'm with that energy, it's just that--Zach: You should definitely shade people to their faces, just as a principle in life. Ade: So here's the thing. I struggle with that, because I would love to shade you in person and to your face and very loudly--well, no, that's not quite shade, that's just yelling--however, I also hold the sincere belief that I just work here. It is not my job to educate you about your silliness. So I don't know. There's, like, a spectrum of behavior, and I don't know how willing I am to invest time in raising adults. So I'm gonna continue struggling with that.Zach: I mean, I feel that. I feel that. See, I genuinely love my job. Like, I'm at a very unique place in my career. I love my job. I have a great relationship with all of--everybody in my practice. Like, I love my team, so, like, shout-out to them. And so I have no issue with letting people know that I have a podcast, plus this is a professional podcast. Like, we don't be talking crazy on here. We haven't even let any blop-blops--we haven't even let any blop-blops go.Ade: I hear you. I love my job as well, although on occasion I do sincerely doubt the judgment of some folks.Zach: That's real.Ade: So I don't know. I'm gonna struggle with that a little bit longer and let you know how I feel about it and if I'm deploying a--"Here's a link to my podcast," you know, in an email all thread.Zach: It's a good--it's also good for your personal brand. I mean, I think--you know, it's almost been a year since we've been out. I feel like it's about time you let people know you're on a podcast.Ade: Very true point.Zach: You know what I'm saying? We were in the middle of these shout-outs. Oh, right, so Favorite Things. So my Favorite Thing right now has to be Desus and Mero on Showtime, okay? So, you know, there are a few things that give me inspiration and joy at the same time, and Desus and Mero happen to be one of 'em. I love their style. I love their content. It's super funny, very engaging, and it has a certain level of just comedic timing that I aspire to have. They're wonderful. So I love their show. This is not a paid promo ad. I don't even think we have enough juice to get ad space for Desus and Mero.Ade: No, no, no. Retract that energy right now. Retract it. Retract it.Zach: Yeah, right. I'm gonna take it back, I'm gonna take it back and add a "yerrrrrp" instead. [laughs]Ade: That's how you do it. Yep.Zach: Yes, but--but no, I really enjoy their content, so shout-out to them. And that really leads me to my question before we get into the wrap-up. Do you think we should have, like, some A.K.A.s on the show? Like, not the sorority. Shout-out to y'all, though. [inaudible].Ade: I really was about to be like, "Excuse me?"Zach: No, no, no. Like, A.K.A.s, like, "Zach Nunn, A.K.A. So-and-so, A.K.A. That Guy, A.K.A. Mr. Such-and-such, A.K.A.--"Ade: A.K.A. ZMX?Zach: A.K.A. ZMX, A.K.A. "per my last email," A.K.A. CC Your Boss, CC Your Manager. My wife's looking at me and saying, "No, don't do any of that."Ade: I--yes, I really was about to be like, "Hm, this could escalate very, very quickly, and the only A.K.A. that I am known for is not work-appropriate," so I'm just gonna move on.Zach: [laughs] Yeah, [inaudible] said no.Ade: I'm standing in my truth. I'm sitting. I'm sitting in my truth.Zach: My wife took her laptop, moved it off of her lap to her side, and then moved her head from the left to the right to the left again, to the right again, and then back to the left to tell me no. Okay.Ade: She's a wise woman.Zach: She is.Ade: We have been rambling for so long.Zach: We have, but, you know, this is actually part of our podcast. You know, people--y'all have been saying that we're not--you know, sometimes we come across a little too scripted. Look, we've been kicking it this episode. If y'all like--if y'all kick it with us--you know, actually, this is the last thing before we go. You know how, like, every podcast and/or, like, artist, group, they have something that they call their fans? Like, Beyonce has the Beyhive, right? Like, Rihanna--BTS has, their fans call themselves "The Army." Like, should we have--should we have any type of--Ade: An employee resource group? Sure.Zach: No, no. What we call our fans. You think we should call them an employee resource group? That'd be super funny. No, they have to give themselves an--you know, something like "our Living Corporaters," you know what I'm saying? It has to be something where you give them, like, a name. There has to be a name.Ade: I don't--Zach: Right? So, like, I'm pretty sure--Ade: Let's think through this. Y'all send us some suggestions.Zach: We've gotta think through it, right? Yeah, y'all send us some suggestions. Like, what do y'all want to be called? Y'all can't be called "the Living Corporate hive." That's mad corny. Can't be called the LCers, 'cause that's--again, it's cheesy. But I don't know. Like, we should think about something. I don't know. It'd be funny, like, if we ever had, like, a live podcast and, like, people subscribed in the middle of our podcast, if the noise was [makes noises] "Hi, who just joined?" That would be funny. [laughs]Ade: All right, it's past your bedtime.Zach: It's time to go. It's time to go, y'all. All right, thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. You can check us out on everything. We're everywhere. Just Google us, Living Corporate. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, check us out on Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod. Make sure you check out all of our blogging content, 'cause we have blogs, and we have some new stuff coming. That'll be coming--fresh announcement, independent announcement coming soon on living-corporate.com, please state the dash, or livingcorporate.co or livingcorporate.org or livingcorporate.net. We have all the livingcorporates except livingcorporate.com. Y'all should know this by now because Australia owns livingcorporate.com. Somebody write a note to Australia. Let them know to stop hating. Ade: A strongly-worded letter.Zach: A strongly-worded letter, right? But they're not even doing the aboriginals right, so they definitely not gonna do us right, huh, Ade?Ade: I mean, no. Zach: No, they're not. Dang, we just put some aboriginal commentary in the end of a Living Corporate podcast episode. But I mean it, y'all need to do right by the aboriginals, and frankly y'all need to do right by us and give us the livingcorporate.com domain. I'm tired of it. We've talked about this for a whole 3 or 4 months. Consider this though a strongly-worded note, a message, okay? We do need the domain. I'm terrified to ask how much money it would cost. I have no idea. I have no idea how much money it would cost.Ade: I--I just--all right. Goodnight, bruh.Zach: Thank y'all for listening to the Living Corporate podcast. This has been Zach.Ade: This has been Ade.Zach: Peace.Ade: Peace.

We have the pleasure of sitting down with Role Tea CEO and co-founder Mike Johnson to discuss the topic of entrepreneurship while other and what building an effective network looks like for underrepresented communities. Connect with Mike (and Role Tea) on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikecjohnson1/https://www.linkedin.com/company/role-tea/about/Learn more about Role Tea:https://www.drinkroletea.com/https://www.instagram.com/roletea/?hl=enhttps://twitter.com/getroletea?lang=enhttps://www.facebook.com/GetRoleTea/Connect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTZach: My grandfather was born in Mississippi and was a sharecropper on a cotton farm. With only an elementary education, he eventually moved to a small Illinois town to work for John Deere. After working for over 20 years, he established his wealth through entrepreneurship, namely real estate. "Remember," he would say to me as a child, "jobs are to pay your bills. If you want to be successful and make real money, do something else." Though he was successful, his journey was challenging and fraught with various hardship. It actually reminds me of an excerpt from a piece from Inc Magazine authored by Web Smith called "What It Really Means to Be a Black Entrepreneur in America," and I quote, "Regardless of race or ethnicity, entrepreneurs always begin at a disadvantage. However, blacks tend to need to reach levels of traction with our own money since seed money is often unavailable. This contributes to the rarity of URM entrepreneurs. Richard Kirby, vice president of Vinrock, recently compiled a list that reported a total of 23 African-American investors in the U.S. It should be of no surprise that black founders receive less than 1% of institutional capital. As important as money is the ability to realize your potential through mentorship and direction. This begins with confidence, belonging, and familiarity." End quote. Listen to that. Confidence, belonging, and familiarity. Networking is the catalyst for each of these things, but what does building such networks look like for underrepresented communities? My name is Zach, and you're listening to Living Corporate.Ade: So today we're talking about entrepreneurship and what it means to be an entrepreneur as a non-white person.Zach: I'm glad that we're dedicating an episode to this. Living Corporate isn't just about working for someone else, but also we want to explore ways in which you can work for yourself.Ade: For sure, and shout-out to your grandpa. That's an amazing story.Zach: Yeah, it's inspiring for sure, and while it's impressive--you know, he built his empire through real estate in a small Midwestern town after building up decades of social equity by being in the community, right? Like, he bought homes, like, no one else was really wise enough to invest in, then he fixed them himself, then he managed all of his own maintenance on this homes.Ade: Wow. Yeah, I mean, he weaved his own boot straps out of thin air and then pulled himself up by them. Like, he's an amazing success story, no doubt. To your point, in 2019, the world is just way more connected and social, which is cool, but it also creates more invisible hurdles and roles and just stuff to navigate in being a full-time or even moderately successful part-time entrepreneur, right? And those three things that you quoted--confidence, belonging, and familiarity--those are all needed in the hyper-connected world.Zach: It's just funny, 'cause I was telling a colleague that because of that fact that entrepreneurship success is built on access to capital, which lie in relationships, that people of color are well-benefitted by having partners and backing that don't really look like them, and I remember I had this conversation, and you would think this person, like, thought that I had said, I don't know, just something, like, really racist or, like--"What are you talking about? What are you trying to say? I mean, anybody can do anything." I was like, "OK, all right. Yes, we can do anything." And it also helps to know the right people so that we can have access to things, so that we can do the things that we want. I mean, like, let's be realistic. It frustrates me sometimes when we talk about, like, success and striving to do better and building things that we don't acknowledge, like, the very real capitalist structures that exist, right? Not even that we're fighting against, but that we have to plug into to be successful. Like, come on. Like, this is America. Everybody does not--everybody with a great idea does not wake up and then work really hard towards that idea and then somehow, like, become successful. There's plenty of people out there with great ideas who work very hard who are never successful, right?Ade: Right, and because people of color often don't have access to power or the relationships or the rooms in which these bills are being made in these countries to be movers and shakers there's a bit of a disadvantage. Let's look at the most prominent black clothing brand ever, FUBU. Long story short, FUBU popped off by having a relationship with LL Cool J, and yes, that LL Cool J. He is black, but guess who else LL Cool J had a commercial partnership with? Gap. He plugged FUBU in the middle of a Gap promotional commercial, and he did it while he was rapping, so nobody who was on set or was clearing the ad afterwards really noticed.Zach: Right, and it's a crazy story, but people just forget about that and the fact that Damon John, he had a ton of creative methods to promote FUBU, right? Like, he had a ton of different ways he was kind of getting it out on the street, but it was that Gap commercial--that's the one that really got 'em on the map and really--anyone who studies FUBU and studies, like, advertising, they know about the LL commercial, right? Like, it's common knowledge that's--that was the tipping point for that brand, and so, like, the point is entrepreneurship is changing already. Like, the majority of entrepreneurs don't make it, but being someone who doesn't have advantages built on centuries of historical inequity makes it even harder. Not to say it isn't possible. I'm not saying that it's impossible at all, it's just--it's just hard.Ade: Correct. Wouldn't it be dope if we had an entrepreneur with, let's say, over a 15-year track record of successfully launching dozens of new products or services in the food and beverage media and industrial goods industry? In fact, I would love to hear from someone who has experience maybe launching a brand from concept to the shelf of three of the top ten grocery chains in the country.Zach: Oh, you mean like our guest Mike C. Johnson?Ade and Zach: Whaaaaaat?Zach: [imitates air horns, then Sound Man supplies them] Y'all thought we weren't gonna have these air horns this season. Y'all thought. That's right. We still here with these air horns. We are here with these air horns. More fire for your head top. I'm not playing.Ade: This is really all Zach. I'm blaming it on you.Zach: Aye, drop the air horns. In fact, hold on, drop extra air horns, because we had someone who was actually from Jamaica hit us up on Instagram and say, "Please keep the air horns coming, and make them louder."Ade: Make them louder?Zach: Make them louder, so we here for y'all. We here for the people, 'cause we got it like that. We love y'all, okay?Ade: Not surprised. Not surprised in the least. All right, y'all. Keep listening for a really dope conversation.Zach: And we're back. And as we shared before the break, we have Mike Johnson with us. Welcome to the show, Mike. How are you doing?Mike: I'm doing good, man. How are you doing?Zach: I'm doing really good, man. So today we're talking about entrepreneurship. So can you tell me--where did your entrepreneurial itch come from or start with?Mike: Oh, man. I really can trace it back to my early 20s. I had a couple ventures around that time that I went after. I had a website called VirtualREGallery, which was basically a website that displayed virtual tours of real estate listings before virtual tours were pretty popular. I was a realtor for a little while, and I also did some construction on the side. So I've always kind of had that aspiration to somewhat control my own destiny, but I would say what really motivated me to start Role Tea was just as I learned more about marketing and innovation, I always just had this dream to want to turn an idea or a vision to a concept and go start to finish and pretty much have complete control over how that product will come to market. So that to me has been the most gratifying part of entrepreneurship. Even to this day when I walk into a store or restaurant and I see someone, you know, drinking Role Tea and, you know, just randomly, that to this day still makes me a little excited, 'cause I'm like, "Man, 3 years ago that product was just an idea in my head, and now people can actually purchase it and consume it in a store." So that's just probably the most gratifying thing, to have that control over the idea from start to finish.Zach: That's amazing. And, you know, you talking about your previous ventures, it reminds me of another question that--you know, in season 1 we had a guest who brought up the concept of failing forward--failing quickly and failing forward, so can you talk a little bit about that concept and perhaps what some of your biggest Ls--and we'll say Ls are lessons--that you've taken in your entrepreneurial journey?Mike: Yeah, man. That's a great question. The crazy thing for me about failure that I've learned in this experience is that--you know, I've realized that you really only fail at almost anything when you quit. Like, going into this venture, you know, sometimes your mind can play tricks on you. You start thinking about the worst things that could happen and failure and whatnot, but when you get into it you realize that, man, virtually everything that happens to a business can be resolved if you have the fortitude to try to work through it. So, I mean, you know, we're no different. Like, you know, everyone talks about the great side of entrepreneurship, but man, we've had at least four or five near-death experiences with our company in 2 years. Like, you know, from running out of cash, which a lot of startups have that issue with running out of money, to, you know, having key suppliers back out last minute, literally weeks before launching into Wegmans, which is a 95+ grocery chain from Virginia up to upstate New York, to having distributors back out the last minute. I mean, all of these things have taken out other companies, but for us we just looked at it as, you know, "Okay, here's another problem." You know, "What are our options just to get past it?" And you kind of take it on the chin and move forward. So, you know, you really only fail at almost anything when you quit or when you run out of, you know, hands to play. So once you realize that and you realize that, "Wow," you know, "what happens with me and this business is largely up to my control," it's kind of empowering once you realize that. But as far as just lessons in general around business, to me the two biggest lessons that come to mind for me is--the first one is just starting as small as you can until you can completely the validate the concept, and when I say validate the concept I mean that, you know, you have a product or a concept that people are gonna want to buy, where the economics of it will actually be able to create a business, right? There's a lot of ideas out there that you can sell, but you're never gonna get the price point that you need to actually have a business. Making sure that you actually know who the consumer is. You know how to talk to them or the channels to sell to them. Those are all the things that are required to really validate a concept, and it's best to try to do that on a very small scale to start. That's definitely been a lesson that we've learned early on, and then I think the second big lesson that I've learned in this in terms of failure as well is just trying to get the business to a point where it can be self-sustainable as quickly as possible, right? So right now we're going through some pretty, you know, dramatic changes around our operations to get a little bit more margin back in house versus giving it to a supplier or an outsourced vendor, and that's just all in an effort to get our business to a point where it can pretty much eat off of what it kills, right? We can sustain ourselves based on our own selves as opposed to relying too much on outside investments. So that's a piece of advice I would give to any aspiring entrepreneur. Even if you want to raise capital, it's just good to have financial discipline to try to get your business as self-sustainable as possible as quickly as possible. So there's many lessons, but those two stand out the most.Zach: And so, you know, you've talked--you talked a little bit about Role Tea, and we're definitely gonna get into that as we get further along in this interview. I'm curious to know about your ventures. Could you--would you mind walking us through? Typically when I meet--the reason I ask your ventures is because typically when I meet entrepreneurs, they may have, like, one big thing, but they have a few other things kind of cooking around them. So I'm curious to know, what are your ventures right now?Mike: No, yeah, that is very true. We tend to have short attention spans, so it's easy to kind of get involved with different things. You know, we launched Role Tea in December, November timeframe of 2016, so we're right at the 2 years, and to be honest, man, aside from, you know, being a new father, which I actually became a father the same year I became an entrepreneur with Role Tea, that's been my primary focus. Now that Role Tea is a little bit more established in terms of distributors and it doesn't take as much of me doing virtually everything to keep it going, I am starting to get back a little bit into consulting. That's something that I did prior to launching Role Tea, so I do like to work with other startups and help them however way I can, but aside from that, man, the bulk of my focus right now is with Role Tea.Zach: What challenges do you believe that you've had as a black entrepreneur? And I ask that because in the research that Ade and I have been doing, we've noticed that there are some challenges that are unique to being a non-white builder of businesses, and so I'm curious to know, like, if you--have you run into any challenges that you believe are unique juxtaposed to your white counterparts? And if so, what are they?Mike: Entrepreneurship, just inherent in the way it is, is already built with plenty of challenges. White, black, yellow, whatever. So sometimes it can be a challenge to understand, "Okay, is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm simply an entrepreneur, or is this a challenge that I'm facing because I'm a black entrepreneur?" And that can be difficult sometimes to decipher, but one challenge that I think is definitely tied to us being, you know, African-American [and own a business,] especially in the food and beverage industry. It's just the fact that, you know, we are launching a beverage brand that is--our intent is to scale to 100+ million in sales and potentially exit, so we're treating our business like a true startup, not like a family-owned business where we're just, you know, looking to sell locally and et cetera, and I think that that's a very different thing in the food and beverage industry amongst a black entrepreneur that most people would expect. So I think that just simply not having a whole lot of examples to point to of black-owned food and beverage brands that have been able to do that successfully makes it hard for a lot of people to see the vision and see the potential in our concept, and I think that's especially true primarily with investors. We've actually had, you know, pretty good success with, for example, some major retailers. We've gotten our product onto the shelves of Whole Foods, of Wegmans. Those are two of the top-rated grocery chains in the country. Hy-Vee is another one. You know, but from a business standpoint, I think that's where we've seen most of the challenge in terms of, you know, working with investors and things of that nature, and I think that's largely because there's just not a whole lot of examples of African-American-owned food and beverage brands that have done it to that level, which is what we're aspiring to do. So I'm sure that there is plenty more, but that's definitely one that I can say for certain I think is unique to us.Zach: So what advice would you give to the person who thinks, you know, entrepreneurship is an all-or-nothing thing and it isn't--they're not starting their journey because they're afraid of missing a steady paycheck?Mike: Yeah, man. That's definitely something that is--I find is very common amongst a lot of people. I struggle with that myself. The first thing is you don't have to be all in to be an entrepreneur, right? Don't listen to everything that you see on Instagram and, you know, social media. There's a lot of people out here glamorizing entrepreneurship, and entrepreneurship is great, right? I spent 12+ years in the corporate world, and now I'm 2 years as an entrepreneur, so I can give you the perspective of both sides, and there's definitely a lot of advantages on the entrepreneur side, but there is nothing wrong with side-hustling it for as long as you can, right? That extra paycheck from your job is--it actually can position your business to be more successful, you know? Thankfully I have 12+ years of experience in the corporate world working for other people, learning, collecting that nice six-figure salary so that I can actually build up a savings to even have a chance to do what I'm doing now. So it's all about when is the right time for you, even if you ever want to go all in, right? All in meaning you're full-time with your entrepreneurship venture, but that's the first thing. Don't feel pressured to go all in, right? And when you go all in is another big question that I hear a lot, and it's also one that I--challenge that I dealt with, and, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. Everyone has to lok at their particular situation to know when is the right time, but I will say that there's probably about four or five things that, you know, anyone that's in that situation is looking to do, to transition, to go all in, they should be looking at. Like, the first thing is, you know, what does your business require? Like, for example, if you're gonna launch a catering business versus a restaurant, you know, they're two very different demands and requirements, right? When you're talking about a restaurant, you have to deal with a storefront, which likely comes with remodeling, et cetera. Not the typical type of thing that you can get, you know, to market on the weekends and evenings, right? Whereas a catering service, you can do that evenings, weekends. You can pretty much side-hustle that until you actually get paying customers before you even have to leave your job. So the type of business that you're looking to start a lot of times will dictate largely when you can actually go all in or if and when you can actually cut the 9-to-5 path. The other thing you've got to look at is, you know, what type of support do you have going into it, right? Do you have people, whether it's family members or friends, that can help you out early on without having to get paid, right? I mean, early on there's no cash coming in. To get it stood up, you're gonna need people to help. You're gonna need your team. What type of support do you have? If you have a pretty good support system, you may be able to go all in a little bit sooner. Also you've got to look at, you know, what are your responsibilities in terms of financially and with people, right? Are you 21 years old, no kids, no family, very low bills? You know, that gives you a whole lot more flexibility in terms of what you can do sooner and the risks that you can take, whereas if you are--like, in my situation, I started, you know, Role Tea already in my mid-30s. Like I said, I'm a father, newly father, so I have to move a lot different in that situation.Zach: Congratulations on that, by the way.Mike: Oh, I definitely appreciate it, man. Fatherhood is a lot of fun, a lot of fun. But yeah, you have to move a lot different if you have a lot of financial responsibilities and people responsibilities. Obviously you have to be a little bit more smart about when you go all in. You also might have to look at are there skills that you just don't have yet but you need to develop before you go all in, right? And then lastly, this is probably often times, you know, skipped and not really taken into consideration, but you definitely have to look at what's your appetite for risk and uncertainty, right? Once you pull the plug on that 9-to-5 and you're all in, you know, on the good side is it really motivates you to have a sense of urgency, to move forward fast, but at the same time it can also be stressful by not having that paycheck coming in every week or two or whatever it was you got paid, and that can definitely cause a lot of stress and anxiety, and if you're the type of person that doesn't deal well with that type of uncertainty and stress, #1: you're probably going to struggle as an entrepreneur, 'cause that's gonna come naturally, but that may also dictate you keeping your business as a side hustle a little bit longer. So I never tell someone exactly what to do in that situation, but I would definitely tell you that those are probably the four or five things that you should be thinking about in your situation to determine, you know, when you go all in or if you go all in at all.Zach: And so, you know--and I alluded to this earlier about some of your challenges as a black entrepreneur, but the research I was speaking to specifically had to do with the variance in acquiring capital, right? So venture capital, angel investments, and other types of non-business loan-sourced funding. I'm curious, have you had any challenges in acquiring that type of funding, and really what's been your journey in building those relationships with those with access with the capital to help your ventures?Mike: Yeah, that's a great question. It's definitely one of the bigger challenges that I'm finding with not just our business but other black-owned entrepreneurs, and it's a complex one, which I--I know that this is probably an area of business that's foreign to a lot of people, so I definitely want to make sure I kind of break this down because, you know, I have an MBA, but yet 3 years ago I didn't understand hardly anything about the idea of raising capital. I've had to learn a lot through this venture, and the challenges that are unique to African-Americans is--it's kind of a snowball effect, so let me explain it like this. So investment in startups typically happens in a progression, right? So, you know, the first step is typically money out of your own pocket, right? So that's called bootstrapping, right? Maybe you've worked in the corporate world for a number of years, you've built up some savings. Maybe you got an inheritance. Whatever the case may be, right? But you need some sort of cash to get things going very early on. That's typically the first step. Second step is you look to friends and family, right? "Who do I know in my own personal network?" Friends, family, associates, that have the means to write a $10, 20, 30, 50,000 check or more, right? That's the second step, and then once you get past that, then you get into what's called angel investors, which are typically either high net worth or high-income individuals who choose to invest in startups, right? And then lastly you get to venture capital, which essentially are, you know, funds that investors who are called limited partners, or LPs, invest in, and they then have managers of those funds look for startups to invest in, right? And they can go from $500,000 up to, you know, $100,000,000, right? They write very large checks. So that's the typical progression of a startup raising capital for their business. So let's think about that, right? Now, what we know about African-Americans is we traditionally have a lower income than non-whites. We also traditionally have a lower net worth, which is probably more significant, than whites. So going back to the very first step in that progression, right? Most of us could struggle with having the means to even bootstrap, to have that $20, 30, 50,000 just to get started, right? Because of the points that I just made, right? And if you get past that hurdle, then now you have to find friends and family that also can write that $10, 15, 20,000 check or more. Again, that's a struggle that's unique for African-Americans moreso than others because of the points that I just made. So right out the gate as an African-American entrepreneur you have some disadvantages, right? And VCs and angels, you have to get past those first couple stages typically before they're even interested in looking at your business, right? And the crazy thing about investment, the investment world, that I've learned is investors rely significantly on their personal networks to even be introduced to an entrepreneur to invest in. So they're--again, how many African-Americans have the social network, the connections that people that have that kind of means to write those checks, right? So it's a snowball effect that, collectively speaking, puts us at a disadvantage, and again, that's definitely a challenge that is well-documented. We've experienced it. Other founders that we know have experienced it, but, you know, how you deal with that is--again, I don't want to make it sound simple, but the first thing that we've tried to do is just bridge that gap in terms of relationships, right? And that's really done largely by just putting yourself out there, putting yourself in situations to meet people that can invest in your brand. So, you know, the very first angel investor that we had we met at the Black Enterprise Entrepreneurs Summit last year. We were chosen as a finalist to pitch in that competition, so, you know, we got a lot of visibility at that show down in Houston last year. We met with our first investor there, our first angel investor I should say, and, you know, months down the road after the rapport was established he decided to invest in us, right? So that was an example of where we had to kind of bridge that gap by just going out and making those connections, and then the second thing really is just--you know, you have to have the mindset that you're gonna make your startup undeniable, right? You know, if someone says no now, which we've definitely heard tons of nos, and you're gonna hear nos. Raising capital is very difficult for any startup, so you have to have the mindset that, you know, "Okay, you say no today, but we're gonna build up the traction that we need over the next 6 months to 12 months to the point where if you say no you're basically foolish," right? So you just have to make your startup--you have to make your startup undeniable, 'cause everyone likes to make money, and I think it's a little bit more of a challenge to show that we can do that, but, you know, if you can definitely demonstrate that, people will invest in your startup. It's just a little bit difficult for us for those reasons.Zach: That's just such a great point around--especially when you started--when you talked about, like, the various levels of investment, right? So I'll even use Living Corporate as an example. For us, you know, I'm one of the few people in my family even in corporate America. We don't all have money like that. I certainly would not--I don't even feel comfortable. I mean, and some of that might just be culture too, Mike. I don't feel comfortable walking to a member of my family talking about, "Hey, would you mind investing $10,000 to help us hire writers and videographers and so on, so on, and so forth," and really invest in Living Corporate. Like, what? You know what I mean? Like, just the thought of that, right? And then, you know, we had an episode again in season 1 when we were talking about family [inaudible]--like, the wealth gap. The wealth inequality gap, and there's plenty of research to show that in the next 10, 20 years, that the average value of a black home will be zero dollars, right? So you're talking about the fact that starting up and getting all this capital, for a community who has no money--like, we don't have the centuries of privilege and things of that nature to have an uncle or a second cousin who can write a check, right? And I think that's just a really good point. You know, I'm curious about Role Tea, so let's dig into that a little bit more. So first off, when can Living Corporate get a case of the tea?Mike: I'm always open to giving Role Tea to whoever wants it, so yeah, I'll let you go with the second question.Zach: [laughs] Okay, so we're good on the tea. And then why tea? Why Role Tea, and then what was the inspiration behind Role Tea?Mike: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we definitely got you on the case. No problem there. As far as the inspiration for the tea, we always say on the--we launched the tea 2 years ago, but the idea for Role Tea really started probably in my early 20s more than 10 years ago where I had the experience of losing 100 pounds, right? So, you know, I'm like 22 years old, and I get that scale shock where I go to the doctor and--I know I'm obviously way too big, but I didn't realize I had actually gone over 300 pounds, and I'm like, "Man," like, "Okay, something's gotta change." So at that point my relationship with food changed, and I learned that, you know, a lot of the traditional foods and beverages that I had consumed, that were, you know, typically less than healthy, right, if I'm creative I can remix those recipes to be better for me, still taste good, and actually serve a purpose to either help me feel better or perform better, and so, you know, over the course of the next 2 to 3 years I lost 100 pounds just, you know, changing the way I ate and exercising more, et cetera. So fast forward to 2015. At this time I was training for a boxing match. I'm a huge boxing fan. I've boxed for several years. Anyone that knows me knows that I'm passionate about boxing just as I am about business, but I was training for a boxing match in 2015, and I noticed--again, now in my mid-30s, you know, after training, what used to take a day or two to feel normal again, not feel sore, not feel stiff, was now taking 2 or 3 days, right? So I started to research beverages that I could drink--you know, not supplements, but just every day traditional beverages--Zach: Natural.Mike: Yeah, natural beverages that I could incorporate into my diet that may help, and so, you know, that's when I learned about ingredients like tumeric and ginger and, you know, green tea and tart cherries, which all have natural anti-inflammatory properties, and so I looked for options in the store, and virtually everything I saw was $6 or $7 bottles of juice, [inaudible] sugar. So, you know, my background is in innovation, new product development and launches, so I immediately saw a business opportunity. I went to a friend of mine named Corey Benson with the idea, and he has an operations background. He was running a manufacturing plant at the time, and he said, "You know what, man? Like, I see people every day that are standing up at the job for 9, 10 hours a day. They're popping Aleves. They're, you know, popping Advils and drinking Mountain Dews to deal with the soreness from just their job," right? So he immediately saw the pain point that, you know, the concept that we were thinking about would address, but he saw it from a regular 9-to-5 job, whereas I was dealing with it from a weekend warrior boxing perspective, right? So we immediately saw, like, "Wow, this whole thing around inflammation and a functional beverage that can help with that has some legs, and it probably could impact a lot of people." So from there we were ready to go. We started to research the industry a lot more in 2015 and 2016. We worked with a development company to take our recipes that we had created with tea and juice and spices, like tumeric and ginger, to basically create a product that could be sold on a shelf. We chose tea because, you know, tea is a very popular drink, and it still is. Shout-out to Guru, even though he talked about lemonade. But tea's a very popular drink, and the great thing about it is, again, you know, a lot of the options before were juices, which is more expensive. Tea is a much less expensive catalyst to use to deliver functional spices and benefits, so we figured we would be able to create a functional drink that's also affordable, right? So we're probably one of the first functional beverages in stores like Whole Foods and Wegmans that was under $3 per bottle, and again--plus I'm a huge iced tea fan, right? So that was a natural ingredient, or product, to use. So, you know, we worked through the recipe process in 2016, and we launched a product literally the night before Thanksgiving in the D.C. Metro area in 2016, and, you know, we started off just very independent, selling out of the trunk of our cars, and, you know, now we're currently sold in over 100 locations, from Virginia up to upstate New York as well as a few states in the Midwest. So right now we're just, you know, looking to continue to grow the business, bring on more partners, bring on more investors, and just see how far it can go.Zach: Man, that's incredible, man. You know, and down the road, once, you know, we get this tea and we drink it, we'll make sure to shout y'all out on the podcast on the part of our Favorite Things.Mike: Definitely. Definitely do that.Zach: Yeah, man. Now, this has been a great conversation. I really want to know where people can learn more about Role Tea and where they can get some.Mike: Yeah, yeah. So Role Tea--and that's R-O-L-E, as in, like, play your role. Role Tea is sold online, so you can see us at RoleTea.com. R-O-L-E-T-E-A dot com. We're also sold on the East Coast, primarily in stores like Wegmans as well as some independent stores in the D.C. Metro area. So yeah, check us out online, RoleTea.com. A lot of good information there. You can order right through that website. Yeah.Zach: That's what's up, man. Now, look, before we get out of here, do you have any parting thoughts or shout-outs?Mike: Yeah, I definitely want to shout-out everyone that has tried Role Tea, everyone that will try Role Tea, including you, Zach. Yeah, everyone that's worked with the brand to help get us this far, to this point, definitely appreciate the support. I definitely want to shout-out my co-founder Corey Benson. Definitely want to shout-out, you know, again, everyone that's listening to this podcast. I didn't get a chance to say this before, man, but when I first heard about this podcast and what you guys are attempting to do as far as help educate people in how to navigate, you know, the world of corporate America, I'm like, "Man, that's definitely something that's needed." Like you mentioned yourself, you're a first-generation corporate professional, right? Did I hear that right?Zach: Right.Mike: Yep, so same here. You know, first in my family to, you know, get a bachelor's degree, master's degree, corporate world and, you know, going into the corporate world I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm ready for success based on my education," but I quickly learned that most of what determines your success in that world is the things that are not taught in the classroom, right? It's the soft skills. It's the implied cultural norms that are often times a little bit different than what we grew up with, so, you know, a lot of us learn those lessons on the job as opposed to being prepared beforehand. So this podcast is doing a great service to help educate young professionals on those waters before they get into them, so kudos to you guys, and again, I'm glad to be a part of this.Zach: Man, Mike, thank you so much for the kind words. Again, the drink, Role Tea--like know your role, R-O-L-E T-E-A, and we're excited to give it a little review. So I appreciate your time. We consider you a friend of the show. Can't wait to have you back, man.Mike: Definitely appreciate it, man.Zach: Peace.Mike: Peace.Ade: And we're back. I thoroughly enjoyed that interview, Zach. I mean, I've known Mike for a little while now. He's been a great friend and supporter. Like, he's always good, not only to listen to you for advice but just listen to his experiences, and how he's been able to grow Role Tea as a brand has been very inspiring, and I'm so glad that we got so much of that in that interview.Zach: No, for sure. In our discussion, and outside of it too, we talked about--just talked about his history and talked about the challenges of building up his brand and really, like, trying and failing at some other things too, but super happy he was on the show, and hopefully we'll get some--we'll get some tea out of this. He told me he'd actually send us a couple pallets. I don't know about pallets, but he said he'd send--Ade: Word?Zach: Yeah. Not pallets, 'cause pallets sounds like--Ade: 'Cause that tea is delicious.Zach: Yeah. No, I've heard it's--I haven't had any yet, but I'm positive that once I have it I'm gonna enjoy it.Ade: Okay. Well, I am keeping an eye out, because Role Tea is amazing. Anyway, awesome. Thank you, and shout-out again to Mike Johnson and Role Tea. I'm looking forward to that tea.Zach: Salute to Mike. Okay, so Favorite Things?Ade: Favorite Things. Let's go. All right.Zach: All right, cool. So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Now, some of y'all are like, "Super Smash Bros.? What's that?" But let me tell you something, those who know--Pusha T voice. "If you know, you know." So look, my favorite thing right now has to be Super Smash Bros. Ultimate on my Nintendo Switch. It's super fun. I play in the evening after a long day at work, and I love it because I can just kind of pick it up. I don't have to, like, sit down in front of a big TV, boot up the game. I can just pick up my handheld, boot it up. And for those who want to know, my favorite--my main character is Chrom. So again, for those who are kind of, like, outside of this whole video game space, Super Smash Bros. is a Nintendo game, right, but it's like you can, like, pick Nintendo characters against each other to fight, right? But, like, not in a, like, super violent Mortal Kombat way. More, like, kind of, like, a cartoonish, fun way, but it's a deep, deep game, right? So you can put Mario against Sonic. You can put Princess Peach against Captain Falcon or Fox or Falco or Ganondorf versus Kirby. You can do all kinds of crazy match-ups, right? Super fun, and so it's been cool. It's a really good stress reliever. That--you know, working out sometimes, you don't want to necessarily want to get up and work out. Forgive me. I don't want to work out all the time. Sometimes I just want to kind of veg out, and it's great. It's great for that. So that's my favorite thing.Ade: Okay, self-care. I see you.Zach: That's right.Ade: So my favorite thing lately has been a book called Cracking the Coding Interview. It's been invaluable, I think. I struggle--for those of you who are just joining us, just in case this is your very first Living Corporate episode ever, I am switching careers, or I'm in the process of switching careers. I'm becoming a software engineer, and part of that process is self-teaching both foundational concepts and computer science, but also understanding algorithms, binary trees. Just how the very technical elements of software engineering, something that you are supposed to pick up in a classroom that I did not have the luxury of doing, therefore I have to teach myself. And there are also books that exist out there that kind of help you through the process of thinking through and developing strategies for coding interviews. I'm discussing it like it's a journal or something like that, [inaudible], but yeah, it's been a really important book, and I've kind of been adding more and more base computer science books and algorithm books to my library, right next to Frantz Fanon and Audre Lorde. So yeah, those are my favorite things.Zach: That's a sick combination though. That's dope.Ade: I want you to know our library in our home consists of tax law code and regulations and vegan chef--vegan cookbooks and regular cookbooks and Sister Outsider. [laughs] And computer science books and data science books.Zach: That's dope though.Ade: Oh, and [Ola had a?] self-help book. So there's no way you can walk into my home and not have something to read.Zach: You're gonna have something. You're gonna learn about something.Ade: There will be something available to edify you. I even have, like, fiction novels, everything from John Green to Grisham to Tomi Adeyemi, which, again, shout-out to her.Zach: Shout-out to her. No, straight up. She's great.Ade: I'm looking up to the next book in the series, by the way. Okay, we have veered so far off track. Did you have--Zach: Good. It's a Favorite Things segment. We're supposed to turn up. It's cool.Ade: You know what? You're right. You're right. Sir, sir. Sir. [Not turning up. Cruise?]. I'm tired. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] [Turn me up. Cruise?]Ade: Nope, I'm tired of you.Zach: Okay. No, no, no, but that's dope. So look, you know, y'all, if it wasn't evident by our kickoff episode, as well as our Supporting Black Women at Work section, the B-Side that we had as well as the full episode, we're here, man.Ade: We outchea.Zach: We're gonna have a good time this season. Make sure you keep checking us out. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. Please say the dahs.Ade: The dash.Zach: If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, just email us or hit us on DM, right? We out here. Don't forget to give us 5 stars too. Now, look, some of y'all actually been responding and gave us some stars, but not all of y'all though. That's right, I'm looking at you. That's right. We need those 5 stars, okay? Right? Am I tripping, Ade? Do we need the 5 stars or nah?Ade: We need the 5 stars.Zach: We need the 5 stars. Okay, cool. Look, y'all. That does it for us. We'll catch y'all next week. This has been Zach.Ade: And this is Ade. Free 21 Savage.Zach: Free 21 Savage. Peace.Ade: Peace.

We have the honor of speaking with author, social worker, and community activist Feminista Jones about the importance of supporting black women at the workplace and the ways in which people can help lift up and advocate for them. We also talk about her new book, Reclaiming Our Space, and announce a giveaway of some free copies!Connect with Feminista on IG and Twitter!Her new book, Reclaiming Our Space: AmazonPatricia Hill Collins’ catalog: AmazonTRANSCRIPTAde: "An extensive survey of hundreds of books, articles, and white papers concludes that women leave the tech industry because they're, quote, treated unfairly, underpaid, less likely to be fast-tracked than their male colleagues, and unable to advance. A study by the Center for Talent Innovation found that 20% of women in tech feel stalled in their careers and 32% are likely to quit within one year. 48% of black women in tech feel stalled." This excerpt from Rachel Thomas called The Real Reason Women Quit Tech (and How to Address It) speaks to the ever-present challenges women, especially those of color, face at work. The common narrative is that diversity and inclusion drive innovation. If so, why are black women so often on the short end of the stick, and what does it look like to effectively support them? My name is Ade, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: So today we're talking about supporting black women at work.Ade: Yeah. So why do you think we're focusing specifically on black women and not talking about women as a whole?Zach: Well, one I think because the reality of intersectionality is real, right? The fact that we exist in multiple spectrums, not just one or the other. I think that when you talk about--when we have conversations about gender, they often can be overly binary in a way that really erases the very real experiences and perspectives of millions of people, particularly when it comes to black women. You know, often times we ignore the fact that, historically, the feminist movements of the early 1900s ignored or aimed to kind of like neutralize and minimize black women's voices. We ignored the fact that black women have endured a history of abuse and negligence by our country. I think that we really often enough just don't talk about and really seek to empower black voices and experiences, particularly black voices and experiences who are women. So that's why I think we're talking about--we're zooming in on black women today.Ade: So you can't see me, but I nodded so hard throughout all of that. I want you to know that if I have whiplash in the morning, I'm billing you directly.Zach: Don't bill me. Don't bill me please.Ade: No, thank you for sharing that. To kind of expound and share some of my own personal experiences, I mean, I've been in situations where I had my bonus docked at work, and I'm asking for concrete reasons as to why I don't have all my money, because I earned this bonus, and the manager is making excuses like, "Oh, well, your computer failed, therefore you didn't get this deliverable in on time," and I'm like, "Okay, so you acknowledge that this was something that this was not within my control and I'm still being punished for it anyway?" And I had no allies. Like, I had plenty of people who were nice to me, plenty of people within that space who would listen to me and bring me coffee and acknowledge that I would be, you know, one of the few people who would show up to work on Sundays to get work done, which I'm never doing again. But nobody felt the need to go to bat for me the same way that they did for other people, and I think in retrospect there were a lot of people who were like, "Oh, she's got this. Oh, she's strong enough to deal with this. Oh, she'll speak up for herself." I mean, and I did, but nobody was listening to me, right? And that's just one of several occasions in which I felt alone. I felt like I was being punished for things that were outside of my control, and even when I spoke up for myself people would treat me as though as I was overreacting or disturbing the peace by just asking to be treated fairly, right? And I found that ultimately I have had to be my own best advocate, and I think in ways that others don't even have to think about, right? Thinking about ways in which I am communicating. For example, I have a pretty sarcastic sense of humor.Zach: Yep.Ade: Thank you for backing me up. But I found that there are situations in which I have consciously dialed back, because I recognized that there were people who would say that I am being mean or that if I am not relating to the topic at hand--for example, people are just kind of talking through experiences that I've never experienced. I'm not gonna get up every day and wash my hair. That's not how my hair functions. And so if I'm quiet in that conversation, people will report that I'm being standoffish. And so there are all of these things and all of these micro-aggressions that ultimately lead to me feeling isolated and unsupported in various workplace scenarios and situations. And so ultimately I want a world in which I don't have to feel different. Like, I want to feel as though I can bring my whole self to work, my whole self, whether my twist-out is bomb or not, whether I feel like I need to go on every single coffee run with every single one of my coworkers just so that I feel like I belong. But that's a conversation we can have a little bit later. Can you think of any situations that you've observed in which you felt that the black woman or black women in your spaces weren't being taken seriously or were being treated differently?Zach: So for sure, right? Interestingly enough though in my career, I have not--I haven't really worked with a lot of black women who were not actually much more senior than I was, right? So, you know, my first experience when I think about it was I was in industry. I was in the oil and gas industry, and she's now a mentor of mine. She's easily one of the most learned, most educated people that I know period. Like, she has an MBA, a Ph.D. She teaches. She's a college professor. And it was interesting watching her navigate these spaces, like, despite her education, people still, like, kind of, like, looking past her or, like, looking through the things that she would say and kind of just cutting her off and making a lot of very presumptive statements.Ade: Ooh. Cutting her off? Good lord.Zach: Cutting her off. Cutting her off, yeah, and watching her handle those situations with a lot of poise and grace and a still certain level of, like, firm confidence. Like, "Okay, nope. I got it." And she's--you know, she's about, like, my mom's age, so certainly she's had a litany of experiences that I would imagine have, you know, helped her kind of deal with what it means just to be who she is in the spaces that she exists. But yeah, I think--I think that that's been, like, the most common experience that I've seen, like, black women in the workplace who would be directors, senior managers--again, they were always senior to me--and they would be--they'd just be dismissed. Like, their opinion would be kind of, like, taken with a pound of salt, slight eye rolls and things of that nature, or kind of to your point, even I've seen situations--and this has been my experience as well, but we're not talking about Zach's experiences, we're talking about black women's experiences--where people will--you know, they'll smile and they'll nod, and then they'll go off and they'll do exactly what they want to do anyway.Ade: Oh. Oh, my God. This is--this is just bringing back so many different flashbacks.Zach: [laughs] No, but it's real though. I've seen that, like, where it's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, for sure," or like I said, you know, they'll say things--they'll be very nice, but then, like, they don't really support you, and I think that kind of, like, speaks to a larger phenomena of people who think that you being nice is in some way you being an advocate, right? Like, no. Like, you're just being nice. Like, there's a difference, and I think to your earlier point about, you know, people saying you're overreacting, I think people--it's so funny. Like, when it comes to--in my experience when it comes to people of color, particularly women of color, folks are really able to see the implications of their decisions with folks' careers when it's their career.Ade: Mm-hmm, say that.Zach: But they don't understand--like, they don't understand the reality of your decision when it comes to my money, right? So, like, when you sit back and you say, "Oh, okay. Well, yeah, you know, your computer didn't work, and so we cut your bonus." You understand, like, you're taking away my money? You're taking away my livelihood. We live in a capitalistic society. Like, I need bread to live.Ade: Right.Zach: So when you sit back and you make decisions that are gonna impede my promotion, they're gonna impede my ratings, they're gonna impede my bonus, like, you're actively taking money out of my pocket. So if you're gonna do something like that where you're gonna take money out of my pocket, you need to have a quantitative, valid, ethical and legal reason--Ade: Have an ironclad reason.Zach: An ironclad reason to do so, and it's just crazy that people don't grasp, like, you know, you're talking about my bread. We're gonna have a problem. But guess what though? I bet if somebody came at you like that, you'd be the first one to run to a lawyer, to run to whoever you're gonna run to who's gonna listen to you.Ade: You'd be on the phone with [inaudible].Zach: On the phone [inaudible] lickety-splickety. So, like, why are we playing?Ade: [laughs] Lickety-splickety.Zach: Lickety-splickety.Ade: But yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. I spoke only of my own experiences, but there's, like, a litany of experiences of the women in my circle and the women who are well above me who are just dealing with things that I don't think they would be dealing with if they were white men, right? Just being excluded or people being condescending to you or people either treating you like you're the third rail and they can't speak to you like you're a regular human being, or when they do speak to you it's with this air of condescension like they know better than you what to do when you're the subject matter expert, and it's just--I can't list literally every single one of things, but I do know this. I know that the tide is going to have to turn, not just because that it is so, but because people who have been studying and working and putting in time and effort to elucidate just what it means to be a black woman in America have extended themselves, right? And so I know that the work is being done. I know that I am just a small piece of a much larger universe of women who are like, "Yeah, this is cute and all, but we're not having it. Thank you." And of those, I think you had the opportunity to speak to one very, very amazing writer. You want to introduce her?Zach: Yeah, so absolutely. So I got the opportunity, or rather Living Corporate had the opportunity, to speak with Feminista Jones. For those who may not know her, she's an activist, she's a black feminist. She's a wonderful person, great writer, and she actually has written a book called Reclaiming Our Space, and we'll get into that in the interview. The next voice you're gonna hear is in the interview that we had with Feminista Jones, and we'll talk to y'all soon.Ade and Zach: Peace.Zach: And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Feminista Jones on the show. Feminista, welcome to the show. How are you doing?Feminista: I'm doing well, thank you. How are you?Zach: I'm doing great. Now, let me--let me ask you this. For those of us who don't know you, would you mind sharing a bit about yourself?Feminista: Sure. For those who don't know me, I am a writer. I am a social worker. I am an activist. I am a speaker, I am a mother, and I am a really amazing friend.Zach: Let's go, yes.Feminista: I do a lot around really advocating for girls and women, advocating for racial justice. I do a lot of anti-poverty work. That's, like, my main primary focus is anti-poverty work. And I'm located in Philadelphia. I'm a native New Yorker, but I moved to Philadelphia a couple years ago because I really wanted to do work to fight poverty, and this city has such a high poverty rate that I wanted to come here and see what work I could help, you know, get done while I'm out here.Zach: So today we're talking about supporting black women in the workplace.Feminista: Mm-hmm. [laughs]Zach: [laughs] I am familiar with your content and your work through social media. We're excited to have you here because of your thought leadership in this arena. So what do you think are some practical ways black women can be better advocated for and supported in their 9-to-5 jobs?Feminista: This is a really great question. I'm someone who is in a senior management position in the social work field, in the community activism fields, and a lot of people have misconceptions about, you know, community work and social work and think that it's just about low-paying work all the time. And some of it is, but there is a lot of opportunities to move up, and when you're in a senior-level position you've got to use multiple skill sets. And I think, just for black women, you know, people make a lot of assumptions that we can do so much all the time, and they rely on us to do that. So I think a lot of times people take for granted the contributions that we make or they take advantage of them, and they may expect that, you know, black women will just handle it, you know? Whatever the fires that need to be put out, black women come with an extinguisher. You know, we're the problem solvers, and a lot of times, you know, we have no choice. We have to because we're looked at, you know, one as being black, two as being women. We're looked at it being doubly, you know, incompetent, and I feel like we've worked so hard to prove otherwise. And you're working alongside men or alongside white people or reporting to men or reporting to white people. You have to, like, be mindful of how you're gonna be perceived, and I think one of the biggest challenges facing black women in the workplace is this idea that people make assumptions about our attitude and our personality and just based on our affect, or, you know, they say we have attitudes or we have issues with communication. And that's one of the things that I struggle with, because I feel like men are celebrated for being, you know, direct and blunt and forward and aggressive. I feel like white people are celebrated for, like, not taking no for an answer and, you know, really kind of just putting it out there and taking risks, but it's like when black women do it, you know, people kind of look at us like, you know, we just tried to suggest something really radical. They kind of look at us like, "How dare you?" almost, and it sucks because we are smart and we are capable, we are talented, and sometimes it's just we're not appreciated simply because we're black women.Zach: That's just--that's so true, right? So, like, as a black man in the workplace--so I'm a consultant, and I don't often really work with black women on projects. I don't really work with other black people often, but when I do I notice that there's this--there's this pattern where if a black woman speaks up--I've noticed where if they speak up and they're being assertive, it is taken completely different than when a white woman speaks up as being assertive and certainly when a man, especially a white man, speaks up and is being assertive. Now, speaking for myself as a black man, there's also, like, a weird balance, right, because we--like, black men do participate in patriarchy of course, and we also--we also sit higher on the privilege pyramid than black women, and at the same time there's a--there's a certain level of balance in terms of not being too assertive but but not being assertive enough at the same time. It's like you truly can't win for losing, so I definitely--I relate to that, and I have--and I've seen it more than a few times with black women, especially if they're, you know, a bit more seasoned in their careers. Let's say if they're, like, over 35 and they really know what they're talking about, they're often seen as a--they're often seen as a threat as opposed--Feminista: Absolutely, absolutely. And I just wanted to touch really quickly what you were saying about, you know, black men in the workplace. Like, I've had situations where I've been, you know, on the same level as a black man, and, like, he's made mistakes, and I'm like, "I'm not trying to have this brother go down," you know what I mean? Because he messed up, or I'm not gonna make him look bad in front of these white people that hired--you know, that are over all of us, but at the same time I'm looking like, "Bruh," like, "I need you to get it together."Zach: And support me.Feminista: "You can't rely on me to fix all your things, you know?" Like, you know that I have a certain skill set. You know that I'm not gonna let you fail 'cause you're my brother, but at the same time don't take that for granted.Zach: That's so true.Feminista: And then when you do have the space to advocate for me as, like, a woman, I need you to do that, and I think, you know, one of my colleagues, I had a great conversation with him, and he said, you know, "I can get the race stuff with the snap of a finger," he said, "but every time you point out something about gender," he said, "I think about it, like, what if this was being said about a white person?" And he's like, "And I feel so stupid that I don't get it," you know? And so it's--like, there's work to be done, and he's acknowledging that, like, some of his gender stuff is still real, and it's almost like I have to compare it to race to help him to see it more, and he hates it. Like, he feels so bad, and he, like, resents it, but, you know, definitely he's getting better, and I respect him for at least doing the work. But there are, like, those boys' club kind of environments that while I know a lot of brothers say that, you know, they have their own experiences, they're still invited into those clubs before we are.Zach: That's true. Absolutely, absolutely. So I've been married for about 5 years, 5 1/2 years, and being married has really helped open my eyes to male privilege. And again, like, it's a--I think black men, like, we can get really sensitive about kind of broaching that topic 'cause it's like, "Well, there's still racism." It's like, "No." Absolutely, like, white supremacy still exists, and it subjugates all non-white people. At the same time, there's still a nuance, an element of privilege that we participate in because we are men, and it's important to realize that. Also to your point around women helping--you said you've helped your colleagues in the past 'cause they're a brother, and shout-out to the countless black women in my career who have pulled me aside and helped me and taken the time to just--felt the need to just educate me or mentor me. Really that's really the inspiration behind Living Corporate, because I didn't have a lot of those people in my family coming up giving me, you know, professional wisdom and insights, but it would often be black women pulling me aside and being like, "Hey, look now. [I know that you did this?]."Feminista: [laughs] Yeah, I hear that a lot. You know, if my colleague listens to this he'll laugh, because just the other day we were at the--we were at a conference, and we went to the bar, and I sat him down and we were drinking, and I turned to him and I said, "Look, I'ma need to get your ass together," you know what I mean? Like, I really--he said, you know--and he got quiet. He's like, "I know it's coming from love. I know it's coming from a good place," but it's like--it is, because it's like, "Brother, I don't want to see you fail, but, you know, some of the things you're doing is like--I need you to do better," and I said, "I'm gonna help you because I have the resources and I have, you know, the ability to do that, because I want to see you succeed," and I think sometimes, you know, I think within our spaces, particularly as black women, it's like we are so few when we're in, you know, these upper spaces, it's like we look to each other to build community, and it's like that's all we got, you know? That's really all we got, and so it's hard when there's tension there, 'cause it's like, "We shouldn't have tension between us." We can disagree on things, but honestly we all we got.Zach: We've got to work together.Feminista: That's the approach I'd take, yeah.Zach: Absolutely, and you know--I don't want to get on too much of a tangent, but your other point around there is, like, this desire and, like--'cause I cape for black women every day. Like, I have to. My mom is black. My wife is black. Like, I have black sisters. I love--I love black women, right? And what I realized is a lot of times I do believe that there has--there is a pattern of black men, like, using up black women, like as means of support and encouragement and all these different things and really taking them for granted. And I've seen it--I have seen it in the professional workplace. Of course I've seen it in the workplace. We see it in relationships. We see it--we see it in a variety of spaces, and I do believe to your other--to your point around black men need to play a more assertive part for advocating for, speaking up, and supporting black women as well. Okay, so let me ask you this. I do feel as if language is becoming more inclusive but at the same time not as explicit when it comes to centering blackness, specifically black women. So as an example, we hear things like "person of color" or "women of color," but often in my opinion our race is the uniqueness of black identity and black feminine identity. So my question is one, am I tripping, and if two--if not, what are ways to affirm and assert intersectional identity, do you think?Feminista: Mm-hmm. Well, you're not tripping, and I think, you know, anti-blackness is, you know, a quite valuable currency, even among black people. We have all internalized the idea that black is bad, and it's going to take generations, centuries of work, to collectively divest of that idea that blackness is tarnishing, blackness is a blemish. And so there are people who will say women of color, people of color, rather than just saying black, because people have been afraid to say black. And, you know, of course for some people, you know, black means a black American, but for me, you know, when I say black I mean, you know, inclusive of everyone in the diaspora, whether you are from the continent, whether you're from South America, North America, Asia, wherever, Europe. For me that's just a unifier. For others it means different things, you know? So a lot of times people shy away from that, and then when they say people of color or they say women of color, in many ways it does dilute the focus, and what happens is this. So much of what happens to women, like, say, in a negative way, happens to black women, and so people want to use our statistics to make their points. And so they'll say "women of color," right, but of those 10 women of color, like, 7 of 'em are black, and so they can say, you know, "70% of women of color experience this," and it's like, "Yes, seven black women experience that." [laughs] We see that in the feminist movement. We see that in the queer movement. We see that wherever black people exist. Folks want to use our statistics to push their agenda, and I have a problem with that. I have a very serious problem with that, and I agree with you. Like, we need to name blackness for what it is, or if you want to say African-American or Afro-Latino, whatever you want to say. They need to name it for what it is, because it's real. Like, if you look at some place like Brazil, it's--like, you can't say there's 55 million, you know, women of color in Brazil. No, there's 55 million black women in Brazil, you know? And that's more black--there's more black women there than there are black people in the United States. So no, we have to name these things, and it's powerful. It's powerful when you name blackness for what it is, for its achievement and success but also for its struggle, because it puts the focus and the spotlight on us. So, like, when you're talking about black women and black feminine identity, particularly, like, in the workspace and beyond, we have to focus specifically on that, because an Asian woman is not facing the same hair issues. She may have similar name issues on her resume, right? But she's not--she's not facing the hair issues, right? An Indian woman may be seen as, you know, she's super smart with tech, because that's an assumption that is made, you know? It's very different for us, you know? Either a biracial woman, you know, may not have the same issues with color if her skin tone is lighter. You know, there's a--there's a lot of things that are going on there that we need to name explicitly.Zach: And see, I think--and my anxiety about even bringing that question up is that people will hear that and say, "Oh, okay. Well, now you're excluding other people," when not at all. Really what we're trying to do is push that we're explicit with identity language across the board, right? So you just gave three examples, right, of why it's important to be specific when it comes to speaking to identity and intersectionality. I believe that we see it at a larger point, and we talked about this in season one, around the pay gap, and we talked about--we talked about that from the perspective of, you know, when you conflate gender across the board and you say, "Well, women believe this, and men are like--" Well, no. Like, that's--I mean, just being a very, like, initial cut, black men and white men do not have the same experiences. Black women and white women do not have the same experiences. Asian women and white women don't have the same experiences. So it's really empowering across if we can have the courage to just speak explicitly to who we're talking about.Feminista: Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, the experiences are different. People will say, "Oh, women make 77 cents on the dollar," but that's not true for a black woman. A black woman is more like 56 cents, 54 cents or something like that.Zach: It is, yeah.Feminista: Like, it's different. Again, but that's, like, padding the numbers, and things like that to bring down the average, 'cause I believe, like--I think I read something like Asian women are on par with white men, and white women are, like, 80% or something like that. Like, they're--Zach: So it's crazy. Like, the numbers absolutely agree [inaudible]. Like, you know, I've seen numbers that are, you know--so, like, white men are 100%, and then white women might be at, like, 77 cents. Black women are at 64 cents, and black men are at, like, 67 cents or 68 cents. But, like, we never talk about--we never talk--not we never talk about, that's not fair, because there's plenty of people driving those discussions, but when you talk about, like, the major narrative talking points in the media, we don't ever talk about the fact that, like, white women make more than black men. Like, that's--I've never heard that, right?Feminista: Oh, I've heard that discussion quite a bit. I mean, it just--we may just be in different circles.Zach: I defer.Feminista: You know, I've heard quite a bit, and it is important, you know, to discuss, because, I mean, it's the truth, right? So it's like--you know, but black women just kind of sit back and be like, "Y'all have at it," because you're either gonna bicker over the race thing or you're gonna bicker over the gender thing.Zach: It's never both, right?Feminista: And we're both. We're the ones that are saying it's both, you know? [laughs] And nobody wants to listen to us on either side, so you all hash it out.Zach: You're absolutely right. No, you're absolutely right, and so--and no, I defer. I would trust that if you've heard it then it's--then those conversations are happening in the right places. So I believe that leads us well into your book, Reclaiming Our Space. Can you talk a bit about the book and how you arrived at that title?Feminista: The title was really interesting. It took us a while to get there. I didn't know what I wanted to call it. What I did know was, you know, shout-out to my editor, Rakia Clark at Beacon Press. She's amazing. She's fantastic. She helped me along the way. On--okay, so if we talk about the book, I--she came to me, right? I guess she was among a bunch of folks who thought I had already written something like this, because my first two books were self-published and did really well, and so I was never--like, I wasn't looking for a publishing agent or a publisher or anything like that. I wasn't looking for a literary agent. I was like, "I can just do it myself," you know? And cut out the middleperson, but when she came to me and approached me it was like, you know, "Have you written anything like this?" And I was like, "No." She was like, "Well, do you want to?" Like, "We're interested in this," and I was like, "What? Sure, okay," and the idea was really to write about not just modern black feminism but specifically kind of speak to my experiences and those of my peers of existing as black feminists in these digital spaces. So ultimately the book is about how black feminists and black women, even those that don't openly identify as feminists, have been able to build community by using digital platforms and how social media has been a--you know, basically a change agent in how we do activism or how we connect across the world and how it's changed our ability to get our messaging out and to change the face of feminism, and we've been able to educate people and influence popular culture and shape laws and everything, you know? I talk about our political influence. I talk about our, you know, influence on television and, you know, this whole live tweeting thing came from us. And, you know, we're talking about black women voting. We're talking about critiquing white feminism. We're talking about--even things down to, like, quote tweeting and threading tweets and things like that. Like, all these things really became popular because of us. So I do a deep dive into that, but I start off with basics of, you know, what is black feminism? I wanted to write a primer for black feminism that was accessible to people of today. We know that people have shorter attention spans. They really want the hot takes. They want the summaries and things like that. They're not going to sit down with a thick Patricia Hill Collins book, although they should. They're not going back and reading, you know, everything from bell hooks, everything from Toni Morrison. They may not even know who Florence Kennedy is, right? But they need to, and so I was like, "Well, how do I tell our story? 'Cause I need to show how we got here," and so I do give a very straightforward quick primer on black feminism, and I go back, like, 125 years or so, and then I bring us to the present, and I'm like, "Well, here are your modern black feminists of today," and so I'm talking about, like, my sister Jamilah Lemieux. I'm talking about Imani Gandy. I'm talking about Zerlina Maxwell. I'm talking about, you know, these really--CaShawn Thompson, who created Black Girl Magic. You know, I'm talking about these women who, right now, in present day, are making history. I'm talking about Trudy, you know? And just a bunch of others. They're currently making history. Not just black history, not just women's history, but they are making history in the ways in which they are transforming these social media platforms. We are creating campaigns. We are, you know, changing literally the world and culture, and I'm writing all about it, 'cause I felt that it needed to be documented. We needed to have something that encapsulated this entire moment right now.Zach: So for our audience, I think many have heard of the term feminism, but the modifier black is still new for a lot of people. So would you mind explaining the difference between what we often think of as feminism and black feminism?Feminista: That's a great question. I get it a lot, and I think the difference is just we are directing people to our identity as black women, which we believe is important in every discussion about our womanhood, and I think, as I said earlier about kind of looking at the both sides of things, the gender and the race, there's a really great collection of works that really references this idea that, you know, all of the men are black and all of the women are white. When we think about, within our black community, you know, blackness really is depicted through a black man, and those are our leaders, and those are the people we care more about when they're killed by police and all these other things, but when it's for a woman, when we think "woman" it's white women, right? But some of us are--we exist in the middle, and to say that we are feminists is--you know, it's a collective idea. All people, women--all women of all races can be feminists, but when we say that we are black feminists, we are saying yes, we believe in women's rights, yes, we support gender, you know, equality, and yes, we support equity, but don't forget that we're black and that we have different issues on top of all of these other issues that women deal with, right? So we have all the feminist issues AND those that come with being not just black but black women within the black community.Zach: You know, it's interesting that you say that because, you know, I have a colleague who is a very senior leader, and she's a white woman, and she said, "Yeah, Zach. I mean, I'm a woman, but I'm white, right? Like, I don't have it that bad," and so--and she kind of chuckled about it, and she was like, "But let's be honest, I don't." And I said, "Okay." You know, with that being said--Feminista: Well, she's right.Zach: She is right. I said, "Yep." [laughs] Yeah, and I laughed. I was--you know, kind of as an aside, I laughed because I was so shocked because she's so senior and she was being--she was speaking so frankly that I said--I laughed and I said, "Well, you know, you're right. You're right," and so it leads me to this question. What are some practical ways you believe white women can support black women generally and at work? And what have you seen be helpful in your journey?Feminista: If I say get out the way, is that too harsh? [laughs] Nah.Zach: It's your energy.Feminista: You know, I mean, ultimately--the bottom line is this. There is no single person I believe that is willing to totally divest of whatever privilege they have if it means staying alive and it means that their children are fed, and I don't care who you are. You will cling to some privilege, whatever privilege you have, to make sure that you can stay alive and that your children are fed. With that said, there are white women who I have really come to know and love and respect, who value my opinions, my thoughts, my work, and amplify it without adding qualifiers to it. They'll share my work. They'll share information about my articles and my books, and they'll direct people to events that I'm having or things like that. They'll use their platforms to really kind of boost, you know, the work that I and other people are doing, which is super important. In the quiet spaces that I don't even have access to they'll stand up for me and folks like me. They'll call out people that are close to them, you know? Even at the risk of losing those connections. Those are women that I find to be truly amazing when you're talking about in the corporate space. I'm coming from, you know, the social work/non-profit field, and we know that that field is ripe with white saviors. Many liberal white women, and men, you know, kind of get into this work 'cause they want to "do good" and they want to "help the needy," and sometimes that can really be actually racist, 'cause the assumptions they make about, you know, people in need or poor people or black people or things like that under the guise of wanting to help can be rather violent. So I've had my share of run-ins with white women in that space, 'cause I'm like, "You'll never tell me that you know what's better for a black child than I do." [laughs] I don't care who you are. We have the same education and experience. But what you can do in that space is really just listen, and I think that, you know, social media definitely has made it a lot easier to listen and to access the voices and experiences of marginalized folks, whereas a lot of white women never really had exposure, you know, in such even and equal platforms. I can tweet just as much as you can, so we have an even playing field right there, and you can listen and you can read and you can learn from me as I'm telling you my experience that I just had today. You don't have to pick up a book later on in the year of anecdotes. You can see right now that I am telling you that 20 minutes ago my white boss did this, you know? And I think that that's really helped white women come to understand more about the daily experiences of women of color and black women specifically. So a lot of women are actually--you know, especially millennials. The younger folks are really kind of just, like, "Eff it. I'm just gonna say what I need to say."Zach: Yeah, we with the smoke. Yeah. [laughs]Feminista: "I'm gonna stand up for this--I'm gonna stand up for this black woman right here, 'cause this ain't right," you know? And I love the energy. I mean, you know, for an older person like myself, I really love the energy that I'm seeing. So maybe we'll see some major changes coming.Zach: Maybe so. That's my prayer for sure. Before we get out of here, let me ask you this. What was the process like for you writing this book? I know you talked about that you were self-published before. This was a different journey. You know, did you learn anything about yourself from this journey?Feminista: Oh, my gosh. Yes. This is totally different. My first book I wrote over the course of 2 years. The second one I actually pulled some pieces that I had written before and wrote some new ones, but it only took me a few months. This one I was on a deadline. I had, like, "You need this by this time and this by this time, and you need to get this in, and you need to review this, and we need this back by this day," and I was like, "What is happening?" I've been the kind of person who, if you give me a deadline it starts to feel like work, and sometimes when it starts to feel like work it doesn't come as--you know, it doesn't flow as well. So I struggled a little bit with that. I had 6 months to write it, and the first 2 months I just was like, "What?" I was like, "What is going on?" I had just had, like, a really bad breakup. I was depressed. I was like, "I don't want to do anything with anyone ever, and I don't want to talk anyone, and I don't want to do--" I couldn't write a word, and then my editor gently nudged me and reminded me of that first check that I got, and I was like, "I should probably write this book." The other thing, you know, I'm also, you know, a mental health consumer and advocate, and I realized that part of my writing struggle was the medication that I was--that I had been taking. It evens my mood so much that I'm--like, I can't--I'm not creative. I don't think of things. I couldn't--I literally couldn't write, so for about a month I stopped taking my medication, and I'll tell people, I wrote about 80% of the book in a month, that month, and it was, like, kind of--it was such a negotiation for me because I knew that without the medication I would be a bit manic, I would be a bit frenzied, you know? I would have these bouts with, you know, depression or whatever, but I knew I could get it done. And so there were days where, you know, I would write until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning and just write, like, brilliant stuff, like, that I don't half-remember now, so. But I knew it was a risk, you know, and I am being very transparent about it because, you know, I just think it's important to do that, but it was a risk, but I was able to get it done. And so what I learned--it helped me really learn how much of my, you know, mental health experiences have been tied into my ability to write, and it's been a fascinating, fascinating discovery. So after the book was done, you know, I went back on my medication, and I've been in therapy and what have you, but as I was doing rewrites and things like that and reviewing it, I was reading it, like, for the first time. I was just like, "I wrote this?" I just couldn't remember writing so much of it, and then I was like, "I actually wrote this," and I was like, "This is pretty damn good." [laughs] But that's--you know, so that is a very, very unique writing process, and it's funny 'cause this is the first time I'm talking about it. A very unique writing process that I won't recommend to anybody else ever, but you know what? The easiest thing I'm gonna have to say is this - I enjoy writing about my friends and myself, 'cause that's really what I was doing, and if you can imagine--let's imagine we go back to the Harlem Renaissance, right? And we look at all those people that we group together as, like, these collectives from the Harlem Renaissance. Imagine if one of them had been documenting what they were doing at the time. It's kind of like the crisis, like, I mean, you know, these other papers and stuff that they had, like, imagine if somebody actually wrote a book in real-time kind of documenting, you know, what was happening and that we were able to read it in their words. That's what I wanted to do, and so I get to write about all these women that I love and respect and love reading their writing, love having drinks with them, love--you know, and I'm privileged. I'm privileged, and it was an honor for me to be able to document their contribution to black feminist work.Zach: That's amazing, and--I'm certainly taken aback, and I'm excited and honored with the fact that you're able to--you're transparent enough to share your journey in putting this work together. The book is called Reclaiming Our Space. Before we let you go, do you have any parting thoughts?Feminista: I'm just really excited that the book is coming out and that people can read it, and I wrote it to make it accessible to teenaged girls all the way up to your mee-maw, your big momma. I really hope that it gets into the hands of people that need it, and then maybe it could start to shift this discourse a bit and get black women a little bit more respect for what we're doing. [laughs]Zach: Amen.Feminista: Yeah, that's it. So thank you so much. Oh, my gosh. This was great.Zach: No, this is great. So Feminista, something you should know is on our website we have something called Favorite Things, and that's where we highlight books and even sometimes food and just other items, things that we really care for, and your book, Reclaiming Our Space, will be #1 on our Favorite Things list. So we're gonna make sure that we push and encourage people to check it out, to buy it and to read it. So thank you so much, and we definitely consider you a friend of the show. We hope we can have you back.Feminista: Oh, I would love to come back. Thank you.Zach: All right, now. Peace.Ade: And we're back. Thank you so much, Zach. That was amazing. Enjoyed that conversation. I think it helped me really think through what it means to lift up the black women in your circle, not just your personal circle, 'cause it's really easy to uplift your friends, but also thinking through how you're uplifting the black women at work, in your corporate spaces, wherever you might hold sway or have some sort of influence that you might be able to use better help others. What part of the conversation did you really enjoy?Zach: So we had a conversation there where we talked about the fact that really, for me, black women have always been, like, the core of my support in my career, right? So there was always some type of either kind of like motherly or kind of big aunt or big sister type figure around me. Like, they would chastise me, but it would always be out of love, right? It would always be in the spirit of "I want you to do better" or "I know you can do better so I'm holding you accountable," and it was crazy because these women who would--again, who would help me, they were not getting the support that they needed, and yet they still found it in themselves to give me the support that they knew I needed, and, you know, I think there's gonna have to be a day eventually--I mean, the day is now frankly, right--that black women are poured into, right? They can't continue just to be the exporter of support and wisdom and empathy and effort, right? Like, they're going--like, they need to be imported into. Like, they need to be given support. They need to be empathized with. They need to be heard. They need to be--and their words should be--their words should be adhered to, right? Like, they need--the things that they are giving they need to also receive.Ade: Aye, reciprocity.Zach: Reciprocity, thank you. No, straight up. That's the word really, reciprocity. Like, they need that, because I think so many times--like, it's so interesting. Also I've seen women at work, black women at work, who will eventually just get kind of fed up with, like, the BS and kind of call people on it. Like, in a professional way, but it may be, like, a more assertive way, and then the narrative is "Oh, she has an attitude problem," or she doesn't know how to handle things. Like, no, she doesn't have an attitude problem. She's tired of y'all treating her like this. She's tired of--she's tired of being the work mule for everybody, from a work perspective, from an emotional perspective. She's tired of it. Like, that's what it is.Ade: And I just want to say how important that is, because very often you'll hear about the trip of the angry black woman. I mean, it follows us everywhere, especially to Corporate America, and everybody wants to talk about the angry black woman, but nobody ever wants to talk about what y'all did to make her angry.Zach: That's so true, wow.Ade: Okay, so one, anger is a valid emotion.Zach: Right? [laughs]Ade: I just--I don't feel like running away from the trope. To be frank, so much occurs that we get to be upset about. Like, everybody gets to be upset about whatever it is upsets them, because that's their right, so I don't understand why it is up to black women--I mean, no, I do understand. I'm just saying that I'm done with that.Zach: Facts. [laughs]Ade: Women very often will be graded on likability, and black women will be graded on likability and your ability to swallow a whole bunch of nonsense and just grin and bear it, right? But if you decide that you are A. not going to grin and bear it and 2. not only are you not going to grin and bear it, you're going to alert the folks who feel as though it's your duty to grin and bear it that you see through the BS and you will not be having any portion of it. Suddenly you're the bad guy, and so ultimately I think it's important that we take away from this - if you feel as though the black women in Corporate America or in your spaces or at your jobs are angry, perhaps they have a right to be, right? There is this phenomenon I've noticed. I mean, I haven't conducted a federally-funded study of this, so there's that. Most of this is from my own personal experiences.Zach: Right, right.Ade: But I've noticed that, you know, these companies will bring in somebody who meets their diversity quota. So in this situation we're talking about bringing a black woman in to your notoriously anti-black misogynistic spaces, and you just leave her to sink or swim, right? And so this woman is cataloging all the ways in which you could be doing better as an organization and saying, "Hey, I have noticed that this is trash, and these are the ways in which you could do better," and instead of, you know, actually paying attention and doing better like the [inaudible] claim that you are, you ignore her. You shut her down. You make her feel as though she is imagining things or pulling things out of thin air or that she is in fact the problem, and then when she finally gets fed up and goes, "You know what? Y'all got it. I'm good," suddenly she is the insane one in the scenario, or suddenly she's the one that's making a big deal out of nothing, or she's playing the victim, and this mass gaslighting of black women in Corporate America 1. is trash, 2. honestly, I feel as though we can't be the only ones who see it, right?Zach: No. We're definitely--no, definitely not. Definitely not.Ade: And even further, here are some concrete ways in which I believe everyone could reach a hand out to the women in your circle. One, it is not enough for you to simply have a diversity and inclusion program. I mean, that's cool and all, but a lot of your diversity and inclusion programs are--flimsy is the word I want to use. It's the one G-rated word that I have off the top of my head to describe your diversity and inclusion programs. They're flimsy, and they do not actually take into account the needs and experiences of the populations that you want to actually address. So for one, every person that you hire, period, should feel like they're able to bring their whole selves to work. And I don't say--I'm not saying that they should show up to work in an unprofessional manner or that they should show up to work and bring drama or chaos to work. That's clearly not what I'm saying, and I'm hoping that you people hear me when I say that. What I am saying is that I should not feel as though I have to decipher what it is that you want from me as an employee because you are uncomfortable just speaking to me like I am a regular human being. I should not feel as though I don't know what the company culture is, because it is your responsibility as the company who creates the culture to communicate that clearly and honestly and fairly. Give me a fair shot to show that not only do I belong here, I can thrive here. And more importantly, do not put the onus on your individual employees to change the entire company structure. It is unfair. It is irrational to say that, "Well, they didn't say that they wanted an employee resource group," or "They didn't say that they needed sponsorship programs that would, you know, put the black women on partnership track," or "They didn't say that they needed XYZ in order to be more successful." It is--it is your responsibility as the managers, as the directors, as the partners, to reach out, because you are the ones with power in your hands to do something about the situation and the environment that your employees are in. And if you are a black woman who finds herself at work and incapable of really navigating your career to the best of your abilities, for one I am sorry. It's trash. It is a terrible situation to be in, to feel as though you have walked a thousand miles, you've crossed deserts, you have swam oceans. You have done everything above and beyond where you felt that you needed to be, where everybody else needed to be, and you walk into the room and people are still questioning your right and your ability to be in there and succeed. That's trash. Secondly, find allies. Find a safe space. Find somebody who is able to look outside of themselves and see you and really want to help you, and I am sorry that, again, it seems to be your responsibility to do so, but we gonna be alright. And thirdly, and I can't stress this enough, find a therapist, and here's why I say find a therapist. You will have days at work, some days, that make you feel as though it is all in your head and you really have no idea what's going on, but when you write things down and you're able to really talk through what happened and why you feel the way that you do at work it really helps. It helps you see yourself, see the truth of the situation, and also create, like, a plan of attack as to how you're going to address the nonsense that you are--that you are facing. I wish all of you love and light. I think we said all of that--not to be performative, but in the show notes we'll have a list of suggested readings for anyone who is interested in really learning about the crux of the conversation today, which was black feminism. We'll have some books, including Feminista Jones's book called Reclaiming Our Space, to help those who are interested in really helping black women at work. Zach, do you have any thoughts?Zach: I mean, nah. You said everything right there. I don't want to really encroach on your space. You did a phenomenal job. Let's continue on with our Favorite Things. You ready?Ade: All right, guys. Favorite Things. So this week, my Favorite Thing, it's called The Self-Taught Programmer by Cory Althoff. Actually, let me read the whole title. The Self-Taught Programmer: The Definitive Guide to Programming Professionally, and I've been reading this book, I mean, for the last couple of days between studying, and it feels good. I mean, it's giving some super actionable advice. It's not, like, a code-heavy or an algorithm-heavy book. Instead it talks about many of the habits that you need to build to be--like, to be really successful and have a sustainable trajectory, and it's been amazing. What about you?Zach: Yeah, so my Favorite Thing right now is obviously Feminista Jones's new book Reclaiming Our Space. It was a great, powerful, approachable read when you talk about around all items of black feminism. I love Feminista Jones's work, and what's refreshing about this book is that it captures the same unapologetic energy that she has, like, that's really part of her brand, and it just captures it well in this book. I think a lot of times you can end up kind of reading someone's book and it's like, "Man, this does not really capture your voice at all." It just doesn't really, like, align with things that I've read or things that I've--other things that I've seen come from you." This is not that, and it's also really convicting, right? Like, it--again, I think--I know rather that black women are often---their voices and experiences are often minimized, even when it comes to inclusion and diversity discussions or equity discussions, often times with black men being the predominant character in the--in the narratives that we drive, right? So, like, even when you talk--like, a prominent example would be police brutality, and they always say, you know, "Black men are killed at XYZ rate that's disproportionate," and that's true, black men are killed at ridiculously disproportionate rates compared to their white counterparts, but do you know who's killed at even higher rates disproportionate to their white counterparts? Black women, right? But, like, we don't--but when you talk about, like, the common talking headline, we don't say that. We don't say--we don't even just say "black people," we say "black men," right? Like, there's a desire to center them, to center us, in a space that--it's not even accurate, right? It's not even the whole truth, and I think that, you know, it's important for black men to recognize--and we talked about this during the interview as well, but to recognize that yes, we are--we are on the receiving end of oppression and white supremacy. We also benefit from a patriarchal society, and there are ways that we benefit from patriarchy that black women do not, and it is important for us to leverage that little bit of privilege that we have to help black women, 'cause they don't have--they don't have it. And that reminds me, we actually have a couple copies of her book, and we'll be giving them away. Yeah. So if you want to be entered in the drawing to win a copy of Feminista Jones's book Reclaiming Our Space, @ us a screenshot of a 5-star review on iTunes and caption Living Corporate, okay? So go on Instagram, take a picture, screenshot your 5-star review on iTunes, and then tag us in it, and we'll make sure to put you in the drawing so you can get the book.Ade: Dope. Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like us to answer and read on the show, please make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. That's it for us today. This has been Ade.Zach: This has been Zach.Ade and Zach: Peace.

We sit down and talk about Black Texas Magazine with Founder, Editor & Chief Nickholas Bailey.Learn about Black Texas Magazine here:https://www.blacktexasmag.com/TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and yes, you're listening to a B-Side. Now, yes, we've introduced the purpose of a B-Side before, but remember, every episode is what? That's right, somebody's first episode. So for our new folks, B-Sides are essentially random shows that we have in-between our larger shows. These are much less structured and somehow--that's right, you even guessed it--it's more lit. That's right. So there's lit. This is more lit than our regularly scheduled shows. Sometimes they're discussions that the hosts have. Sometimes they're extended monologues from just one particular host like myself or Ola or Latricia or Ade, or sometimes, yes, maybe even sometimes, maybe even most times, they're a special chat with a special guest. Today, we have a special guest - Nickholas Bailey. Nick Bailey is the editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine, a media outlet that is dedicated to enriching the lives of people of color across the state and beyond by connecting on a personal level through a passion for leading fulfilling lives. Welcome to the show, man. How you doin'?Nick: I'm doing well, how are you?Zach: I'm doing good, man. Look, let's talk about Black Texas Magazine. Where did it start, why the name, and what are y'all trying to achieve?Nick: Well, Black Texas started kind of as a jumping point for me because prior to this, or about--oh, I guess about a year prior to this I was the online editor for a publication called Texas Lifestyle Magazine. Great publication. They've done a lot of great stuff, but as I--as I got further into it, I started to recognize that there was a disconnect between my perspective and the perspective that they were--that they were creating. You know, like, I live a very different lifestyle than the people that they target, you know? I'm not accustomed to paying $300 for a charcuterie board or paying, you know, $1,000 for, you know, a grill set. It just wasn't really my--it wasn't really my thing, and I was pushing for some more relatable content for the average Texan, and it just wasn't--there was a disconnect there, and so after a lot of thinking and a lot of planning I decided to make the jump and create a publication for black people that was essentially the same thing in some ways. Like, I don't want to say that we just copied and pasted the formula because, you know, unfortunately I created a lot of the formula for Texas Lifestyle once I came on, but I would say that our goal is to enrich the life of black Texans and really Texans of all colors by exposing them to new brands, new opportunities, and new experiences that they may not have previously known about or they may not have previously felt like were open to them, you know? So I know for a lot of--for a lot of black people in the community, we--we almost self-segregate with a lot of things, you know? We look at things as, "Oh, that's white people stuff. We don't really--we don't really mess with that," whether it be, you know, simple stuff or the wild stuff like bungee jumping or skydiving, which I'm still kind of on the fence on. Like, they might be able to keep those. [laughs] But even things like, you know, eating at different restaurants or trying different festivals and experiences. Just really making it more palatable for--you know, for the black community, because there are plenty of people in the black community that say, "Hey, I want to live life. I've only got one life. I want to enjoy it while I'm here," and finding the opportunities for them that will enhance their lives is really the big overarching goal for us, but also highlighting the black businesses that are trying that as well along the way.Zach: So it's interesting, right? So I looked at the platform, and, you know, I think what I was taken most aback by was the amount of content, right? Like, you guys--it seems like you guys are publishing something every single day, and so talk to me a little bit about y'all’s challenges in getting this started up and, you know, what goes into managing a digital magazine. How do you juggle--it seems that there's a lot of hats to juggle. It seems that there's a lot of things to do, and I understand that you're also working full-time still.Nick: Yes.Zach: So how do you manage all of that?Nick: I manage that with a lot of stress--a lot of stress, not a lot of sleep, and an overdose of patience, because we do have a small team. We're always looking--like, we're always looking for new writers to bring on-board, but right now we do have a small team, and it's really just a matter of balancing everyone's talents and abilities. Like, for the time being I take on the burden--I take on the bulk of the burden by handling a lot of the administrative tasks. So, like, making sure that content is up on the website, proofreading the content, gathering all of the materials. So that might be, like, getting the photos in order, sorting it--like, sorting our files and documents online. So I do a lot of that stuff, and so I have the writers, and I say, "Hey, I want you to focus on writing," and the plan that I have right now is really to kind of spread that load across--across the team so no one person is having to do all of the writing. 'Cause everybody--like, to my knowledge, everybody else is working full-time somewhere as well. So what I would rather them do is each person write, you know, one or two things a month, and we could be able to keep a steady flow than expecting one person to churn out, you know, a new article every week, you know? And with balancing it with working--like, I work full-time, and for me it's kind of difficult 'cause I work 12-hour shifts. So a lot of my work is done--I guess done at night, so I'm usually up until about 1:00 in the morning making sure that content is looking good, there's no errors and we're gonna be good to go.Zach: So I have another question as a follow-up, right, really to the title of Black Texas Magazine. Has anyone run up on you with, "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that would be racist?"Nick: Not that directly, but it's been one of those side--like, side-swiped questions. Like, "Hm, why is it just for black people?" And kind of insinuating that, and to that I would say, to be honest, most of the public--like, most of the Texas-based publications we have are catered to a white audience. And, you know, I'm not opposed to--I'm not opposed to acknowledging that it may seem--it may come off as a bit contentious to say, "This is a publication for black people," you know, but at the same time it's never been a situation of, you know, "No whites allowed," you know? We've had--we've had white contributors to our publication. We have a lot of white readers. We have readers all over the world, and most of those aren't, you know, nations of color. And so I would say if they want--if they asked the question or they posed the question or the statement "If we had a White Texas Magazine, that'd be racist," I would tell them, "Well, let's go read Texas Highways. Let's go read Texas Monthly. Let's go read Texas Lifestyle." The list could go on. Most publications are catering to a white audience. Like, they may not be as blatant as to say it, but it's one of those--I would say it's one of those underlying things of once you see the subject matter you--there are ways of siphoning out certain groups by the content.Zach: Right. And, you know, it's funny because I think it's easy to forget that white is the default, right? Like, it's--like, you don't have to call something for it to be--the majority of the country is white, so most of the content out there in any type of media is largely going to be white, right? So you don't have to call--I don't have to call something white, something anything, but you do call things--you know, if there is other underrepresented groups, black, XYZ, or Asian-this or Latin-X or Hispanic-this because we're trying to highlight the fact that this is not the default, right? It's not what you immediately consider when you think about whatever audience or population that you're gonna be engaging. Okay, so let me ask you this. You know, you guys landed J Prince recently, [inaudible] J Prince, but how did that happen for you guys? Like, how did it work, and what was that experience like?Nick: For me, honestly, it was an amazing experience. I lucked into it because I got--I got an email from the city of Austin about an event that they were co-hosting. It was just an evening with J Prince where he was just hearing Austin talking about his life, and I went, and I was like--I didn't know what to expect, and I was just like, "Man, I just want to see this guy in person, see, you know, really what he's about and just kind of, you know, measure him up instead of just looking through a screen," and it was a cool event. The event went off really well, and at the end there was a line to, like, you know, take a picture with him and stuff, and I was like, "Okay, cool." You know, "I don't mind getting a picture with J Prince. That'd be kinda cool," and so I get in line, and as always they're trying to sell the book or sell merchandise and stuff like that, and just out of, you know, the spur of the moment I'm like, "I'll buy the book," and so I get the book, and when it's my turn he autographs the book and everything, and I ask him a question, and the question I asked him is, you know, "Hey--" Like, he talks about--he talked a lot about, you know, replacing IGs with OGs in terms of, you know, getting off of social media and really linking up with people that have done what we do before us and really gaining some knowledge from them, especially, like, in different entertainment avenues. A lot of the OGs that we came up with came up through nefarious ways, you know? They sold drugs, they robbed people. They committed crimes to get the assets that they needed, and so I asked him, you know, "How can we look up to these OGs and get advice from them when we're at a age where we don't want to take those penitentiary chances to make it into the industry?" And I think it kind of--it kind of put him on the spot, and he stopped and he said, "You know what? Talk to me after the show."Zach: You asked him--you asked him that in front of a bunch of people?Nick: No, it was--like, it was a one-on-one thing. I asked him, like, face-to-face, maybe two feet away from him.Zach: Oh, my gosh. Well, shout out to you for asking J Prince such a very pointed question to his face.Nick: You can't get the answers you don't ask for.Zach: [laughs] That's a good point.Nick: You know? 'Cause I would love to be in different indust--like, involved in different industries, but I don't wanna have to go sell coke to get the money for it.Zach: Straight up, yeah.Nick: But at the same time, trying to save money from a regular 9-to-5 is a very slow process.Zach: And this is the thing I think people forget, like, man, the blessing of an--you cannot, you cannot undervalue initial capital, man. Like--so you know, like, even when you talk about Jay-Z's album, the last album he dropped right, and he was talking about how I flipped this, and it's like, "Well, Jay-Z, man, you started off with, like, 400 racks. You had $400,000 from the coke game, so you say." So it's like, "Okay, yeah." If you--if you gave a very ambitious, you know, entrepreneurial person of color $400,000, man, that's gonna--yeah, they could flip that into something too. I'm not saying--they might not flip it into a billion, but they can flip it into something because they have the initial capital. So to your point, like, how--that just was such a good question because, like, okay, I'ma talk--if I talked to Jay-Z for an hour, people would say, "I'd love to talk to Jay-Z for an hour 'cause then I would learn how to be a billionaire." It's like, "Well, Jay-Z's gonna be like, "Well, I had initial capital of $400,000 because I sold drugs, and it was tax free. So I basically started with a 400--" Like, most black people don't have seed money, hundred thousand dollar seed money. They have a little bit of change here and there that they scrounge up, like you said. Like, that they hold over from their full-time job after paying off this and paying off that and whatever debt they have, and they have, you know, a little bit of change, not enough money to build an empire. You know what I'm saying?Nick: Absolutely, and that was--and after listening to Jay-Z's album, that was one of the things that I kind of left with. I was like, you know, "He talks a lot about, you know, these amazing ways to do better," and it's one of those things of "If you knew better, you'd do better." And that's cool. Like, I would love to buy a piece of art that's worth, you know, 1 million, hold it until it's worth 2 million, sell it when it's worth 10 million. That's cool. I would love to be able to give that to my children, but I gotta get that first million.Zach: Right. [laughs]Nick: It's easy--it's easy to compound wealth once you have it, and a lot of rappers talk about that part, but they don't really tell us how we can get the money, how we can get started without selling drugs, without robbing people. That's--like, that's the link they never give us, and I think that unfortunately that's because a lot of them don't have the answer for that, aside from "Sell drugs. Rob people." And that's an unfortunate truth. Like, I get it, that's the environment they came up in, but if we're trying to do better now we need new lessons.Zach: Right, right. So let me ask--let me ask you this. What advice would you have for black and brown folks trying to get, you know, multi-effort ventures off of the ground? So you have a full-time job. You've launched a magazine. It takes multiple hands, driving it and grinding it. It clearly--like you said earlier, it's stress. It's late nights. What are you--what advice would you have for folks who look like us trying to do similar things?Nick: The strongest advice I would give is work together. In college I ran a midterm program, and one of the things I taught was the idea of collective development. You know, especially if you're starting off with little to no capital. You're--like, you're working at a point where you're not getting paid. You need to find a team of people who are willing to work with you to build something up that benefits everybody, you know? Like, Black Texas isn't just me. It's not the Nick Bailey show, you know? My byline comes up very little. For me, I look at it as a plat--as I'm creating a platform to advance the careers of other people, you know? Because as we gain our audience and as we, you know, get that brand retention, that brand recognition, people start coming to the website looking for other people. They're not looking for me, you know? They're looking to see, "Oh, let's see what's up with these movie reviews. Let's see what's up with these fashion tips. Let's see what's up with these house-keeping tips." You know, "What events are coming up?" I want--I want people looking for the thoughts and ideas of other people, and for me in my particular situation I can say, "Hey, I can't pay you to write right now, but what I can give you is an opportunity to grow your name," because not everybody has the money to start up a website, you know? Even the cheapest websites that aren't free aren't cheap. Once you get past the, you know, this is BrandXYZ.WordPress.com and you get to just Brand.com, it becomes a different--a different financial burden, and not everybody--not everybody is willing to take that risk, and I've gotten to a point where I took that risk to--ideally to make it easier for other people. So I would say, you know, one, be willing to work together. Understand the vision. Don't just work for anybody, but understand the vision. Understand what it means for you personally and how it's going to benefit you personally, and then you give it your all, you know? Like, that's the truest thing that I can tell anyone, and also set ego aside, you know? Not everybody's going to be #1, and not everybody needs to be #1. You can easily do amazing as a strong #2, and what I mean by that is not everybody has to be a CEO. Not everybody has to be the founder, the president. You know? Like, I don't introduce myself as the founder or CEO of Black Texas because that's not important to me, you know? I want this to be something much bigger than myself. I'm the editor-in-chief, which is just to say I'm the guy steering the ship right now, you know? Like, I don't look at the--I don't look at the Dallas Cowboys and think of who the owner is, I look at the Cowboys and think of who are their star players, you know? Who are the people who made the team breathe? And that's how I look at--that's how I look at Black Texas and really any business, you know? We know--we know who Mark Zuckerberg is. That's cool. He made it that way. He's not the one looking at all this Russia info. He's not the one making sure that you wind up in Facebook jail for some post, [laughs] and those people may not have the fame, but they're getting us all a paycheck.Zach: Right. Right, right. Man, this has been dope, man. Do you have any shout outs for us?Nick: I did not think of shout outs. Let's see. If there are people I'd shout out, honestly I would just give shout outs to my team. It's been--like, we launched this year mid-January, and it's been a wild ride along the way. I've taken risks. I've asked them to follow me, and they have, and we really--we really made a lot of strides this year, and I'm proud to see the work they're putting in and what we're able to accomplish when we work together, you know? This is the first time that I've really steered a team like this, and to see them, you know, putting up the hard work is honestly amazing. I would want to give a shout out to my family, you know? Like, I love my daughters, but most importantly, like, my parents. They have been a well of support for me. They've encouraged me to, you know, chase my dreams. They've helped me when I--like, when I wasn't sure about myself, and, you know, my grandma's been my day one, and she's helped me in life as well, but I don't know. I would say--if I had to give a specific shout out it would be to my father, and that's because he gave me the capital to get this magazine started, you know? 'Cause, like, every year he'll give--like, he'll give a gift for Christmas, which really isn't a gift to me, it's more of a "Hey, here's some money from me. Get gifts for the girls," because he doesn't really--he doesn't really celebrate Christmas. Different religion. That's not really his thing, and so I get it, but this last year he gave me a little more than usual, and he said, you know, "Take this and do what, you know, you feel you need to do with it," and I was just at a loss, and I thought and I thought about it. I strategized, and I prayed over it, and I said, "You know, I have to be willing to take that jump," you know? It called me back to a quote from Steve Harvey talking about getting to success, and he said, you know, "You have to be willing to jump. You can't be successful on the ledge," and so I went for it. And so, you know, I've got to give it my all because I can't--I can't let folks down. That's not my thing.Zach: Awesome, man. Well, look, that does it for us, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure you follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You have been listening to Nick Bailey, editor-in-chief of Black Texas Magazine. Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We speak with Black Girl Ventures founder Shelly Bell about the lack of diversity and inclusion within the venture capital space and the ways we can work to combat the issue.Find out more about Black Girl Ventures: https://www.blackgirlventures.org/Learn about Bumble Bizz here: https://bumble.com/bizzConnect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: "The fact that African-American founders have limited access to investment has been well-documented, but you might not know that that problem is replicated in the venture capital world too. In recent years, several black-owned or directed VC funds and firms have opened their doors with a focus on minority and women-owned businesses, but as it turns out, many VCs are hitting the same obstacles as the founders they're trying to invest in - access to capital. According to PitchBook, American VC funds raised approximately $40.6 billion in 2016, with this year on course to make 2017 the fourth consecutive year with more than $40 billion raised. But with less than 3% of VC funds employing black [inaudible] investment professionals, only a small fraction of that sum will find its way to businesses owned or run by people of color." This excerpt is from Barry A. Williams' article "One Reason Black Founders Don't Get Enough Funding - Black VCs Don't Either." It explains the methods that entrepreneurs of color employ to support their startups, none of them nearly as effective as their white counterparts. The data doesn't lie. Less than 3% of all VC funding goes to entrepreneurs of color. In a world that is more empowered now than ever before to pursue entrepreneurial ventures, what can people of color do to garner the financial support they need? My name is Ade, and this is Living Corporate.Zach: [singing] Money, money, money... money! Ade: Child, what? [laughs] What are you talking about?Zach: [laughing] What? Listen, today is all about the lack of diversity in venture capital, specifically the reality that there's a huge disparity in the distribution of funds between white and brown and black entrepreneurs. So it comes down to...Ade: Oh, right. Money. Okay, all right. Capital. I'm with you now. Well, you're right. I mean, we live in a capitalistic society. We need money to do anything, so money is the life of startups.Zach: Yep, and you know what? I have an excerpt from an article I want to share. This is from Megan Rose Dickey of TechCrunch called "Venture Capital's Diversity Disaster." Here we go. Quote, "Just 1% of venture capitalists are Latinx. Only 3% are black. White people, unsurprisingly, make up 70% of the venture capital industry, according to a recent analysis by Richard Kerby, a partner at Equal Ventures. Compared to Kerby's 2016 analysis, women now make up 18% of the VC industry versus just 11% back then. At an intersectional level, black and Latinx women make zero percent of the venture capital industry," end quote. So this is talking about the industry, whereas your initial commentary was about VC recipients. But I would contend that the lack of diversity within the industry supports the disparate funding between white and ethnic minorities, especially women of color. Ade: Right. And to be clear, minorities are out here. Like, we are out here pursuing entrepreneurship, and we do seek funding for our startups. I know we've been sharing articles throughout the show, but I have another one. This excerpt is from a Forbes article written by Daniel Applewhite called "Founders in Venture Capital: Racism Is Costing Us Billions." So it says, "In 2016, the Center for Global Policy Solutions reported that, due to discriminatory financing practices and a bias towards companies primarily operated by white males, America is losing out on over 1.1 million minority-owned businesses, and as a result forgoing over 9 million potential jobs and $300 billion in collective national income. Less than 1% of American venture capital-backed founders are black, and the percentage of blacks in decision-making roles within venture capital isn't much better. Pattern recognition has enabled VCs to mitigate risks, but has also limited their profit potential and created an inherent funding bias. This bias stems from barriers to early stage capital, a lack of representation in the investing space, and is perpetuated by systems of racism that destroy opportunities within communities of color." So having read all that, wouldn't it be great if we could get someone, maybe a person of color--a woman of color, even, who has created a non-profit organization specifically built to acquire VC for ethnic minority-owned businesses? That's very, very specific, but, I mean, if we can get J Prince on here, if we can get DeRay Mckesson on here, I feel like, you know, big things poppin'. We can be a little picky. What you feel?Zach: I feel you, and I think you mean our guest, owner of Black Girl Ventures, Shelly Bell. Ade and Zach: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?Zach: [imitating air horns] Sound Man, come on. Drop 'em on in there. Let's go.[Sound Man complies]Ade: [laughing] All right, all right. Still extra. Next up, we're gonna get into our interview with our guest Shelly Bell. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. And as we said before the break, we have Shelly Bell, founder of Black Girl Ventures. Shelly, welcome to the show. How are you?Shelly: Hi, thank you. I'm good. How are you?Zach: I'm doing really good. So look, I feel as if you have one of the most straight-forward organization names out there, but talk to us about how Black Girl Ventures came about and what was the inspiration behind it.Shelly: So with Black Girl Ventures, we work to create access to capital for black and brown women entrepreneurs. It started because I'm an entrepreneur myself. I have a couple of my own ventures. My mom invested in me, and I really hit the ground running in building my t-shirt line called Made By A Black Woman, which fed into me actually starting my own print shop called Misprint USA, and I was grinding so hard at that, but I realized that during the process of me being on my grind I didn't have a community. And so I'm an artist. I've done performance poetry, and so through that I had done a lot of community building. So I'm like, "Hey, you know what? I know how to build community. I know how to bring people together. Why don't we just throw everybody together and give the money away?" 'Cause at this time, a lot of the news was coming out about women not having access to capital. And I'm like, "All right. This is a simple solution." So when I started it, it was really just a matter of bringing people together, everybody throwing some money into the pot, and then us creating, you know, some capital for women entrepreneurs. The first one, I barely even marketed it. We had about 30 women in a house in southeast D.C. We got together. I cooked all the food myself, which I will never do again. [laughs] Yeah, we had about four women pitch. We voted with, like, marbles and coffee cups. Like, I put each person's, like, name in a coffee cup, and then after they did their pitch, we had everybody in the audience ask questions and then vote by using their marble. So we just gave the money right back out in cash at that time. Like, I wasn't even thinking that it would be as huge as it's become. Now here we are two years later, over 20,000 people in our audience. We're in three states - D.C., Philly, and Balt--I'm sorry, in three--in three--yeah, three states, but three cities - D.C., Baltimore, and Philly. We're about to do--in the fall we have Chicago, Atlanta, and then another D.C., and we're in conversation with a lot of the small- to mid-sized cities about coming there next year. We're talking to people in Kansas City. We're talking to people in Durham, in Memphis, New Orleans, Albuquerque, Salt Lake City, because the larger cities we found are some really great, like, validators to say, "Oh, we did New York, we did Chicago, we did D.C., we did Atlanta," but really we're looking at, like, where do people have the most need with the least, like, activity that is culturally censored for them?Zach: That's amazing, and again, I'm just so excited that you're here. You know, I'm curious, what are some of the common misconceptions about venture capital that Black Girl Ventures seeks to clarify?Shelly: Yeah. So common misconceptions about venture capital. Huh. I'm not--like, I'm not exactly sure that I would say there's common misconceptions about venture capital per se. Maybe that it's, like--venture capital has become very sexy, and I think that people just don't understand who should get it, why they give it. Like, venture capitalists want to make money. Like, that's it. Like, the center of the day, the center of the round, how can your thing bring return? And if you are not so hardcore about that on your business, then you're gonna have a long road to go with venture capital. It's not grant capital. It's not a loan. Well, I mean, there's different kinds of deals that can be what you call a convertible note, which is basically a loan and [inaudible] and some other investment jargon, but ultimately you should just know that it's about the returns. Like, can you give return on investment? And fairly quick, you know? But quick in this sense means, you know, five years, three to five years. Like, it's a long game too, but the people want to see that the potential for returns are there. Zach: So in building out Black Girl Ventures, at what point did you realize, like, "Wow, this is a--this is really significant." Like, "This has some serious traction to it?"Shelly: Probably I would say at the beginning of 2017. I had a volunteer team of seven people where we decided to do it quarterly, and the first one we did, it was in March of 2017, and we started getting in applications at that time, and so we got a nice amount of applications with a low amount of marketing. 'Cause again, like, I'm just kind of throwing it out there, my network and the word of mouth being spread. Over the course of the year, just seeing it move and grow and grow and grow and then winning Entrepreneur of the Year for 2017 for [inaudible] D.C. and the people who voted for that. I mean, just like, I think the reaction from the women we serve is really what was caused me to be like, "Wow." Like, "We're really doing something." Like, our Baltimore winner from October of 2017, when she won, she cried. We did South by Southwest, and the girl who won, she cried for, like, 5 minutes, and they're--and the things that they're saying to me is that sometimes this is maybe their first win, is coming into a place where a group of people are supporting you, and, like, a group of people are just there to support you, a space that is created [inaudible] and then an audience of people who are there to support you. So I think, like, as the--as the audience has grown and as our traction has grown and the feedback that we're getting back, I'm just like, "Wow, okay. So we're not stopping this." Like, we're gonna keep going. Yeah, just seeing the reaction from the audience, seeing the reaction from the people that are pitching has been the thing.Zach: So how important--how important would you say resilience is for those who are seeking venture capital and really seeking to engage that space? People who are seeking to gain capital.Shelly: It's everything. I mean, resilience is it. Like, there's nothing else. [laughs] Because you've got to keep pushing. You want to keep refining your idea or your business to get to know where those returns are coming back, and venture capital is not for everybody. So, you know, you could be the person that needs to crowdfund. You could be the person who needs a loan. You could be the person that needs to focus on customer acquisition. Venture capital may or may not be the thing for you. I think it's--again, it's become sexy now because you can get a large amount of money at once, but at the same time, you know, you're building a relationship where you have to--you have to make sure that you're getting ret--that the returns are coming back. So, I mean, the resilience comes when you get a no, you know? Like, a "No, that's not gonna work for me," or a "No, I don't think that idea is gonna bring returns, or "No--" Nos are kind of hard to get when you're in need. So when you're, like, really wanting, needing the money to get to a certain place and you feel like you just can't get it, when you're focused on venture capital in particular, it can be hard, and especially because, like, there's a lot of translation work that needs to be done. There's a lot of cultural misunderstanding between, like, VCs and entrepreneurs. There's still a lot of work to be done on, like, you know, women getting invested in and women of color getting invested in and, like, diversity and inclusion when it comes to people's portfolios, because the pattern that has been consistently matched is white male who can sleep on couches for months and, you know, not eat to build a business, and so people, you know, venture capitalists have traditionally said, "Okay, this is the model for who builds successful companies." I think we're seeing that shift a little bit with the rise in investment in the beauty industry for black women in particular. I think we're gonna see a shift more as more people start pushing out that, like, "Hey, these industries," and even black and brown folks that own tech companies can also be invested in and show returns and that, like, the only pattern--I think we're gonna start seeing or showcasing a new pattern to match. This is one of the things that we at Black Girl Ventures are passionate about, is saying like, "Hey, yes, the white guy that sleeps on couches for months, goes home and just doesn't eat and builds a major tech company, yes, that's one pattern and that has worked, but also it's the, you know, black woman straight out of college who has been working on her idea the entire time. Also it's the, you know, woman of color in general who has, you know, pulled together as much money as she can from her family and her community to put into her idea and is now seeing, you know, 3X, 5X, 10X returns. Like, also it's the beauty business--the beauty industry, also it's the feminine care industry, also--you know, also it's the hair industry. Also it's the child care ind--you know, I think that as we--the health care industry. You know, I think that as we--as many people as we can push out into the open that are doing different kinds of businesses that also can show returns, that also can match up to what VCs are looking for, we can start to create a new pattern for people to match.Zach: So, you know, I wanted to ask this a little bit earlier, but I don't want to end this interview without asking now. So I--what really caught my eye about making sure that we wanted to have you on this show was a blog post that you wrote on Medium where someone reached out to you and said, "Okay, yeah. Black Girl Ventures. How would you feel if it was White Male Ventures?" Would you mind talking about the blog that you wrote in response to that? And I believe it got a ton of traction. Would you mind just talking a little bit more about that particular piece?Shelly: Yeah. So I was on Bumble, the dating app, looking for dates, and I swiped this white guy right, he swipes me right. On Bumble, you know, women have to do the initial greeting, so I greet him, and then he comes back and says, "Oh, well, if I started a company called White Male Ventures, you would go ape[shit?]," and my response to him was, "No, that would be venture capital. Have you seen who's getting it?" And he said some other rude things, but not before I could get it--he deleted the thread, but not before I could get a screenshot of the message. And so I was just--something was just, like, [inaudible] about it, so I did. I went to Medium, wrote the article, posted [inaudible], and then instead of having, like, an emotional response towards him or, like, racism or, you know, all of these kind of discrimination, diversity and inclusion type stuff, I decided to just use it to talk about what we are doing and the work that we do want to see in the world and the work that all of these amazing women's organizations are doing, and I listed the women's organizations in the article. And so I just--I pushed it to Twitter, you know, like any other Medium post that you write, and I didn't--I didn't think twice about it. So I noticed that people--you know, I was getting some traction on it, and Bumble actually tweeted me back, you know? But I'm thinking, "Oh, okay." You know how sometimes if you tweet things, people will say, like, "Oh, thank you," or, you know, "Thank you for your mention," or "We're sorry you went through that," or something like that, so I'm just thinking it's just a regular post. I didn't even look at it at first, and then something was just telling me to look at the post, so I looked at the post, and it is one of the content editors, and she's just like, "Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry you went through this, but we love what you're doing, you know? Send me an inbox message." So I DM'd her my email. We end up--she emails me and says, you know, "We don't stand for this kind of thing on our platform. We're sorry that you had to go through this. We're a woman-owned company, and we see that you're a woman-owned company, and we love what you're doing. We want to figure out how we can get involved with what you're doing. Can we sponsor a pitch competition? Can we see if we can offer mentors? Whatever you want. The ball is in your court." So from there, I'm just--I see the email and I'm almost in tears because I'm just like, "Oh, my God." Like, one, my journey as building this movement, like, I'm constantly figuring out and pressing for corporate sponsors, and, like, now I'm looking at engaging, like, employee resource groups as well because we learned that, through Black Girl Ventures being on internal calendars and being shared internally, that it's actually activating black and brown employees to be able to, like, feel like they can be a part of the community and what other community work they can do. So then I'm just like, "Oh, my God." Like, I've been really saying, like, if we could just start with one really great corporate sponsor, we could push into some different directions to improve some of the cases that we want. So we've been in conversation with them ever since then, and that was about three months ago. So now Bumble is actually--and this will be my first announcement of it, Bumble is our--one of our official sponsors right now for three pitch competitions. They're sponsoring us for the Chicago, Atlanta, and the next D.C. competition, which are all coming up in October. Atlanta is October 12th, Chicago is October 19th, and D.C. will be October 26th. Bumble has a Bumble Bizz side, so on Bumble you can look for people you want to date, you can look for people just for friends, and then you can look for professionals. And so we're being sponsored by Bumble Bizz, which is the professional side, and the awesome thing about it is we're gonna make it so that people can find each other at the event by using their proximity. So they can register for the Bumble Bizz app, and then you'll be able to actually connect with people in the room. It will be the official app for the [inaudible] pitch competitions and hopefully beyond because it's such a great tool, and you can find people that you want to hire, you can find people to mentor you, you can find people who are doing the work that you're doing just to ask questions of. So it's a powerful business, actual professional app on that side.Zach: That's incredible, and definitely shout out to Bumble Bizz. Air horns for that, and you know what? Also, Shelly, what's really incredible is that--what I'm hearing is the fact that you took the time to speak truth to power and not kind of shrink away from one, a frustrating and insulting moment, and you used it for a platform to speak to what you actually, to your point, are doing, so that's amazing. Where can people learn more about Black Girl Ventures?Shelly: Yeah. You can find us at BlackGirlVentures.org. You can also follow us on Instagram @BlackGirlVentures, you can follow us on Twitter @BGirlVentures, and on Facebook it's Facebook.com/BlackGirlVentures.Zach: Okay, that's great. So we're gonna make sure that we have all of that in the show notes as well as the Medium link to that amazing post, and we'll make sure to have the Bumble Bizz info in there as well. Before we let you go, do you have any shout outs? Any parting words?Shelly: Yeah. I wanted to just--I wanted to just mention a couple of our BGV alum who are killing it right now. We have Brittany Young, who has--the name of her company is B-360 Baltimore. B-360 works with kids who ride dirt bikes, 'cause dirt bikes are typically illegal to ride on the street, and she transforms them into engineers by helping them learn how to actually fix their dirt bikes and, like, actually, like, create 3D helmets and some really cool things. She is now an Echoing Green fellow and was just featured on the Afropunk stage for their solution session. We have Miracle Olatunji, who just--the name of her app is OpportuniME, and she's 18 years old. She placed third in our competition. Her web app helps students find opportunities for scholarships and internships, and she just made it into the Y Combinator virtual startup school, which is major. Y Combinator puts out--their incubator, that's where Twitter came from and a couple of others, like Airbnb. Like, your huge apps that are out right now. So I just wanted to mention them 'cause they are, like, doing such great work. And, I mean, there is a ton of other women that we work with and serve that I'm super proud of and rallying for, so shout out to all the BGV alum, and check us out. We'll be coming to a city near you soon.Zach: Shelly, this has been amazing. I just want to thank you again for taking the time to be on the show. We definitely consider you a friend of the pod, and we can't wait to have you back.Shelly: Thank you. This was great. Thank you so much for having me.Zach: No problem. I'll talk to you soon. Peace.Ade: And we're back. Wow, so shout out to Shelly and Black Girl Ventures. They're addressing such a need.Zach: Yeah, and she has so much going on. We really appreciated her being on the show. Like, make sure y'all check out the show notes to learn more about Shelly and everything happening over at Black Girl Ventures.Ade: Exactly. Well, look, up next we're gonna get into our Favorite Things. Join us.Zach: So my favorite thing right now has to be Jamaican food. Sheesh. Let me tell y'all, so good. Rice and beans. Like, just rice and beans. [laughing] Why is it so good? I did not know something so straight-forward could taste so delicious, but it does.Ade: So I have this theory. Stick with me here.Zach: Okay. All right.Ade: That, hands down, pound for pound, dollar for dollar, taste bud for taste bud, the Diaspora has the most flavorful food in the world. Like, the entire African Diaspora put together just, like, will punch you in your taste buds every single time.Zach: I just--I really agree with that, right? I mean, 'cause my two other favorite dishes are Thai food and Indian food. Now, I don't know where they land in the Diaspora, but I know they're brown, right? Ade: Bloop.Zach: Yeah, no, it's delicious, and so shout out to all my real Jamaicans. That's right, shout out to my Jamaicans. [laughs]Ade: [laughing] As opposed to fake ones? Zach: [laughing] As opposed to fake Jamaicans. Shout out to my real Jamaicans out there. Would it be offensive to add some air horns right here?Ade: I do not know. Let's, like, move on from the Rachel Dolezal section. [laughing] But I'm gonna go ahead and oblige your need for your air horns.Zach: Thank you. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns specifically for jerked chicken, rice and beans, beef patties, salt fish. You know what? I'm 'bout to name the whole menu. Sound Man! Just drop the air horns.[Sound Man complies]Ade: [laughing] All right, okay. Just don't run off to Jamaica on me, because I will join you and never leave the beach. All right, so my favorite thing right now actually is a book called So Long A Letter by Mariama Ba. It is one of the very first novels written by a Senegalese woman in French, and it is a seminal work in African literature, particularly written by a woman. It is an account of one woman writing to another--they're both widows--written within the context of Muslim women in mourning, one writing to the other and trying to kind of talk her through this extremely patriarchal process of grief and trauma, and it is--it is a story of sisterhood, it is a story of anxiety, of motherhood, of grief, of independence, of women sustaining each other, and obviously this is something--maybe not obviously, but it's something that appeals to me as a feminist and as a woman who one day hopes to raise strong women and who hopes to, you know, hold my sisters up in the same way. So I'm gonna use the term woes, as much as I dislike the originator there, but I'm certainly gonna get a hard copy of So Long A Letter for all my woes. It is very much a book that lends itself to having a conversation about what it means to have a sisterhood. So that's my favorite thing. [laughing] You went from this high of "Let's eat, I'm 'bout it," and I was like, "Let me tell you about how solid we need to be right now."Zach: [laughing] No, but the juxtaposition is what makes us great. We're like the PB and jelly sandwich of podcasting. I don't want to say of all podcasts.Ade: Okay, but first--but first, I need to know - what kind of jelly are you? This will make or break our relationship. I want you to know this right now.Zach: #JellyBandit. I love jelly, but let's figure it out.Ade: Wow. You think you know someone. Goodness.Zach: [laughs] I love jelly. Jelly is great. Actually in Houston, there's a jalapeno jelly, jalapeno strawberry jelly, and it is amazing.Ade: [air horns going off] #StrawberryJelly. #StrawberryPreserves. #--you are just not [inaudible]. Like, I don't--I don't--Zach: So that is my--that is my favorite jelly though. Like, what is your favorite?Ade: I feel like I'm about to get kicked out the gang for this, but I like fig preserves. Now, hear me out.Zach: Fig preserves are good. I like fig preserves.Ade: Okay, and just like that, you saved our friendship. Okay.Zach: [laughs] That's very funny. Fig preserves are great.Ade: Fig preserves. I have--I made a cornbread once with goat cheese, rosemary and fig preserves, and I know somebody is going to say something along the lines of, "Die, you monster," and I want you to know that it was delicious and I'm willing to take that. I'm going to die on that particular hill. Great. Preserves are great.Zach: So anyway, I do feel as if--again, I feel as if it's this type of repertoire, right? This tit-for-tat, as it were, that makes us special, so I appreciate you.Ade: Oh, okay. [inaudible]. Appreciate you too.Zach: Anyway, [laughs] thank y'all for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. If you have a question you'd like for us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Check us out--Ade: You're--Zach: [laughing] All right. Make sure to check us out on Patreon as well. Again, we're Living Corporate, so just pull us up anywhere and you'll find us. That does it for us on this show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Zach and Ade: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

We sit down with TJ and talk about his path to joining the tech industry and what people of color can do to engage it further.Learn more about tech: ROOTsTechnology.infoConnect with us: https://linktr.ee/livingcorporateTRANSCRIPTAde: I'm sure many of our listeners can relate to the concept of familial pressure, and as many immigrant or first-generation young adults may know, the career path for us is often limited to that of a doctor, lawyer, or engineer. I chose the path of a lawyer when I was younger. However, as I've evolved as a person so have my interests, and I'm not alone in this. Many of us have seen leaps in technology that have piqued interest in previously unexplored fields. So with that in mind, it should be of no surprise that it is one of the fastest growing industries in the world with revenue within the industry projected to reach $351 billion. It also makes it an inviting field for groups that have been underrepresented in this industry until now. The question is what does it look like to make the pivot? My name is Ade, and you're listening to Living Corporate. [intro]Ade: So today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. As many of you may know, this would resonate with me. I've shared at least two or three times this season, but for those of you who are new, I'm actively making the career pivot into software engineering, which was not my focus in college. The journey so far has included some extremely long hours, some late nights, a ton of mistakes, a couple of wins--a couple of little wins--and many, many failures. Zach: Yeah. You know, we could've done a better job promoting your journey through Living Corporate's Instagram because your IG stories are great. Like, I'll see you posting pictures of your laptop screen with a bunch of code on it, you being in all these all-day workshops, books you're digging in to help build your technical chops. It's been inspiring to see.Ade: Thanks. Thank you. Part of what I am interested in is making tech more accessible. It's all around us, and engaging in tech means often--more than just being a coder. Being a coder is awesome, but there is so much more to tech than that.Zach: Right. I mean, to your point, because there's technology in everything that we do, there's a myriad of ways to work in tech. As an example, I'm a change management consultant in technology. I don't know how to code a thing, yet, but I'm still actively engaged in the industry because I bring other skills to the table to help implementations and things of that nature to be more successful.Ade: Right, and along that train of thought, there's space for all of us at the table--word to Solange--but it comes down to exposure and engagement. For me, I had two primary barriers. One, I didn't know what tech meant. It seemed like this vague, really nebulous space, and that was scary. I like when words mean things, and I like when I understand what those words mean. And the second big barrier for me was that I did not know how to get there. I had no road map. I had graduated from college, and there was no counselor, adviser who was like, "Take these classes and you'll get there," and "These are the steps." I had to figure it out for myself, but in figuring it out for myself I came to understand that the tech space is made up of people, some really amazing people, and therefore completely accessible. Just like you are a person, they are people, and so this is a space that you can absolutely find your way in. Zach: Right, and as you alluded to in the intro, professionals of color as well-served to seek entry into industries that are growing and positioned to be on or around the top, but it would be great if we could speak to someone more about this topic, right? Someone who--maybe they're, like, a first-generation American who changed their career, made a career pivot after college and got into tech, but not only that, they leveraged their passion and network to teach other ethnic minorities skills to get them into the tech space as well.Ade: Wait, you mean like our guest TJ Oyeniyi?Zach and Ade: Whaaaaaaat?Zach: Sound Man! [makes air horn noises] Come on, drop 'em in. You know it. Just put 'em right in there. Let's go. Ade: [laughs] All right. So next up we're gonna get into our interview with our guest, TJ. Hope y'all enjoy.Zach: And we're back. TJ, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for joining us.TJ: Thank you. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: Hey, no problem, man. So look, for those of us who don't know you, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?TJ: Yeah. So my name is Tolu Oyeniyi, and most people know me as TJ, which I completely made up while watching Smart Guy one day. I was born in Nigeria, [inaudible], and I grew up in Dallas, Texas. I did my undergrad at UT Austin and grad school at Arizona State, and I am currently in the second year of my career switch as a software engineer. Zach: Man, that's amazing. So look, today we're talking about non-conventional entries into tech. Before you got into technology or the tech space explicitly, what were you doing? And what spurred your interest in the tech space?TJ: Ah, what was I doing? So I was working as a business analyst at a small health tech company in Austin at the time, and I was also a really big volunteer in Austin. Like, when I moved back to Austin from Dallas for work, I told myself, like, "Anything black," like, just anything dealing with underrepresented groups, I wanted to volunteer time to just help and, you know, just try to, like, give back any way possible. And I ended up, like, volunteering for a host of different events 'til I stumbled upon this one event called hackathon at Huston-Tillotson University, which is an HBCU and actually the first higher education institute in Austin during South By, and the purpose of the hackathon was to basically introduce black and brown students to tech, and I volunteered as a mentor to basically help students flesh out their ideas and, you know, ultimately try to build, like, a working product at the end of those two days for the hackathon. And what, like, really triggered the idea of, like, learning to code or just teaching people how to code was when I parked in front of this, like, brand new house across from, like, HT in east Austin, which, you know, used to be, like, an old black neighborhood in Austin. And, you know, this house was a reminder that this area was being gentrified, largely by a lot of people that are--that come into Austin because of tech, and just kind of, like, thinking, "Man," like, "All these black and brown kids," and just, like, families in these areas are being priced out of here because they don't really have access into this industry and don't really know, like, the basics, you know, to even be able to try to, like, you know, have a chance to, like, try in this industry. And that kind of frustrated me a bit, and I thought one day, "You know what? It would be real impactful if somebody was teaching these kids to code," and I just, like, jokingly mentioned to a friend--you know, to my friend at the event, like, "Bruh, you know, I think I'm gonna mess around and learn how to code so I can teach these kids to code."Zach: Wow. [laughs]TJ: The guy I was talking to was a software engineer for IBM. He was like, "Oh, really? Can you code?" I was like, "I do," but I didn't know anything about coding, bruh. I worked as a business analyst. I did, like, design software, but I don't actually build it. But yeah, I had the crazy idea of learning to code so that I could learn to teach black and brown kids to code. And I didn't really learn to, like, make a career switch. I just wanted to basically help other people, like, break into the industry. And I did that for about a year until I basically got this useless promotion at work. [laughs]Zach: Why was it useless? [laughs]TJ: It was useless, man. I was--I was working as a business analyst, making--you know, for a health tech company, making 37,500 in Austin--Zach: Wow. Wow, that's really low.TJ: Ooh. Man, you said wow and it just--it brought back all the pain from those days. [laughs] Oh, God. But yeah, and I had gotten a promotion to senior business analyst, right? You know, big time. I'm thinking big time. Everything got a promotion [inaudible]. My [inaudible] got a promotion, my responsibilities. Everything but my salary.Zach: Oh, no. But that's really what happens though.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Hold on, bruh." [laughs] "Hold on, bruh. Wait, what's going on?" 'Cause my, you know, coworkers got a raise. Why in the world did I not get one? So I started having this, like, back-and-forth with my manager like, "Hey, man. You know, I've been doing all this," you know? "My output is looking really good," et cetera, et cetera. Like, I've been here for over a year, you know? What's up? And I just got promoted. So he eventually went to bat for me with the CEO, and they got me a promotion. Like, I--man, I remember that day well. He came into the office and we had a meeting, and he was so happy to, like, announce to me that I had gotten a raise. I was like, "Okay. What's that money looking like, bruh?" He's like, "Yeah. So TJ, we're gonna take you from $37,500 to $39,998."Zach: Oh, no.TJ: I was like, "Hey, bruh. You guys really couldn't have added a couple dollars more?" [laughs] You know, to at least make it 40K, bruh. Really? I was--I was like, "Okay, wow. Thank you. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it." I mean, I went back to my desk with this look like, "I'm leaving." I was, like, mid-twenties, just thinking, "Man, I'm not gonna be fighting for 40K." Like, "I'm not trying to build my life and career off of that," 'cause--you know, 'cause the question then was how long 'til I reach, like, 60K?Zach: Right. No, it's a real question. Right.TJ: Yeah. I'm like, "Bruh." Man...Zach: God forbid six figures, right? Like, come on. Right, yeah.TJ: Yeah, exactly. I'm like, "Jeez, I'ma be, like, 40 to 50 years old before I see any kind of money where, you know, I can just kind of be at peace?" Basically, right? 'Cause I had, like, a lot of loans coming from grad school 'cause I also did grad school out of state. But yeah, so I was very, like, frustrated by that, and by this time I had been learning to code for about a year and, like, you know, teaching it as well, but at that time I basically just knew the basics of building, like, web pages and websites. You know, just simple HTML, CSS, JavaScript, Bootstrap. You know, that type of stuff. But I went home and I was just like, "You know what, man? I'm not gonna be here fighting to try to make 40-something K." Like, my financial goals were way bigger than that, and I was like, "I have to make a change," and all of my software engineer friends are banking, and, you know, so far this stuff seems pretty straightforward. So I basically went to this event or something at IBM I think, and I saw this printout of a job posting for an engineer role at IBM, and it had all these skills and requirements. You know, just basically all this stuff on there, and I basically used that posting to update the curriculum that I was using to teach.Zach: Oh, wow. Yeah.TJ: This happened, like--man, I think this happened around June or July 2016, and I basically took that job posting and I put it, like, right next to my desk in my room, and I put a date on there. Like, December 2016 was how long I gave myself. I was like, "By December 2016 latest, I should be working as a software engineer. Period." Zach: Let's go. Wow. Yeah, that's amazing.TJ: So yeah, basically that is what kind of spurred me making that career change, and it's just crazy how it all started, how I actually only started learning to code so that I could teach other people so they could break into the industry and make more money when I was over here broke. [laughs] Maybe I should make the switch.Zach: Right. You know, I'll say this. It's funny. I truly believe any time you attach your purpose with people you're going to see rewards on the other side, right? TJ: Oh, yeah.Zach: Right? So your whole angle, your whole mission was "How can I serve someone else?" And then as you were building to serve others, the fates came together to make sure that you were taken care of. So that's really exciting, and I think something else that I hope our listeners are picking up on is that you were tenacious about it, right? So the information was out there, you did your own research, you put yourself out there, you were willing to be uncomfortable, and you drove to get there. Let me ask you something about this program that you started to teach other folks, specifically youth, how to code. What is the program, and why do you believe coding is so important? Why do you do it today? Like, why do you continue to do it today?TJ: Well, so the program was called ROOTs Technology, and I was basically teaching classes on Saturdays at the time in, like, a lower income part of Austin. Yeah, and for me, at the time I thought it was, like, a really good chance to provide an opportunity for kids that were already interested in tech somehow to just learn more of the hard skills to try to, like, pick up the chance to try to break into the industry or to ultimately start, like, their own stuff on the side in terms of, like, building websites for people or just, like, building--or just building their own app ideas [inaudible] actually. So yeah, I mean, that--man, teaching is hard, bruh. Teaching is very hard. I always knew that our teachers were undervalued, underpaid and underappreciated, but that, like, knowledge took a different form when I actually, like, experienced being in the shoes of a teacher for just, like, a couple hours once a week, because there were some students in my class that they didn't know where they were going to eat unless they came to my class because Subway, like, sponsored lunches. You know? So it was like--there were so many, like, hurdles outside of the actual class that basically made it hard for students to retain information and to basically achieve the goal that they set out to achieve. So yeah, that was tough, and I ultimately had to, like, pull back on the program. So now I have the curriculum online, and it is open to any and everybody to use, and I just make myself available as a mentor to help people to get unstuck as they are working through the curriculum, you know? Because everything is online and self-paced, so.Zach: So let's make sure that we'll--we'll make sure to put those resources in the show notes because I think that's amazing. I think--you know, certain people--for me as an example, right, I'm a good Googler. Like, I don't have an issue looking something up and figuring out or, you know, reaching out and talking to people, but that isn't always--that's not everyone's strong suit. Having a place where all of that information is consolidated and available I think is a big deal, and there's plenty of people out there that really see tech as, like, this big, just amorphous thing that you can't really wrap your arms around or that it's only for super, super quantitative math geniuses and things of that nature. So let me ask you this. If you could give people, especially minorities, who don't have a tech background but want to get into the space three tips, what would they be?TJ: One, decide what you want to do, and if you don't already know what you want to do in this industry or you just don't know anything about tech, just start looking for local tech meet-ups in your area and start attending and just--just ask questions. Like, you will always find people that are willing to just, like, answer questions and at least help you and point you in the right direction. And two, like, find people that want--once you figure out what you want to do, find people in this industry that are where you want to be and approach them to basically help you come up with a plan to get there. And then three, you have to really, like, sacrifice and grind. Like, set a timeline and let other people know to basically help to keep you accountable to your goals and get to work, you know? Like, this--this, like, took me over a year and a half of just, like, teaching myself and just grinding, and my last, like, five months, I actually--like, once I decided that I wanted to make the switch into being an engineer, I think I spent about, like, seven months of just, like, really sacrificing and grinding. No more happy hours. No more brunch. Dollar mimosas, and God knows I love, like, dollar mimosas. Like, I--Zach: Dollar mimosas, yeah. [laughs]TJ: You know? I basically I had to give, like, so much up. Like, I was working full-time and coming home, and basically from 6:00 P.M. to, like, 1:00 or 2:00 A.M. I was just studying. Seven days a week. Just grinding and sacrificing. The only people that saw me on a regular basis were my coworkers and my sister 'cause she lives with me, but that was it, you know? I basically went into a hole to, you know, try to put in the work to achieve my goals, and I basically showed up with a brand new software engineering job a few months later.Zach: Well, see--that's just so inspirational, right? Because, again, I think we talk a lot about things we say that we want to do, but the reality is it takes work. It takes sacrifice. Anything that you want to really build that's gonna be sustainable, not a fad or not something passing in any way, it takes time, and it takes actual work. And it's funny because, you know, you didn't pull those hours out of nowhere. You had to give up some comfort so that you could eventually get where you wanted to go. So that's--that's just amazing. I'm really encouraged by this story. This has been a great conversation. Before we wrap up, TJ, do you have any shout outs?TJ: Man, I have a lot of shout outs.Zach: Go ahead. Get it going.TJ: [laughs] So yeah, first shout outs will be to Dara Oke and Sammy [inaudible]. They were my engineering friends at the time that basically helped point me in the right direction when I was coming up with this self-paced curriculum to, you know, teach people, and then after that, shout out to Yusuf [inaudible] and the African-American Youth Harvest Foundation, which is where the classes for ROOTs Technology were at, and Yusuf was another engineer at the time that basically started learning to code back then like I did and wanted to make the switch over, and he would actually volunteer with me to help teach the class as well. And yeah, again, he achieved it as well. He has been working as a software engineer for the past two years. And also shout out to [inaudible] for just being, like, a really big support--just a really good friend and mentor in this, like, tech journey. Like, E is an engineer. He's worked at IBM on the Watson project, DO doing, like, [inaudible] stuff, and now he's over at GitHub, and he always does a very good job of just, you know, trying to help lift as he's climbing, and I was, you know, one of those people that he, like, really helped along the way in my own journey. And also a big shout out to my fiance Queen and my sister [inaudible], who gave me a place to live while I was--while I didn't have my own place for a few months. And just a really big shout out to all of my family and friends that were there to support me and to, like, push me on throughout this whole journey.Zach: Man, that's beautiful, man, and again, we thank you for your time. We love your story. We definitely consider you a friend of the show. We hope to have you back, man.TJ: Awesome. Awesome, sir. Thank you so much, Zach. Appreciate you.Zach: All right, man. Peace.Ade: And we're back. I can tell that you and TJ had a lot of fun on that one, and to be frank, I was incredibly energized by his story. It was really motivating to hear because he's out of the old, so to speak. I'm definitely still in "stay low and build" mode, but hearing his story is encouraging, and it's motivating, and it lets me know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak. Zach: Yeah. I think his story comes down to the power of execution. He made up his mind to do something, and he didn't use any excuse. He researched, he studied, he prepared, and then he went for it, and he didn't take years and years. It's really--frankly, it's been a super short journey for him, and I'm happy for him because I know he's just getting started.Ade: For sure. We'll definitely need to make sure to list all of those resources and contacts in the show notes because, like you said, there are so many of us out here who are interested in a genuine approach to the industry but aren't necessarily sure where to start. We'll have a starting line for you.Zach: Absolutely. Well, with that being said, we're gonna be right back with our Favorite Things. Can't wait to share.Ade: Awesome.Zach: And we're back with our Favorite Things. So folk who know me know that I am a blerd, or a black nerd. Two amazing games dropped this month. One was 2K19. Yes, like many younger black men, I loves my 2K, my NBA 2K. For those who are not in the know, NBA 2K is a basketball simulation game. This isn't even an ad. I really enjoy 2K, especially My Career, where you take a player--you make one, you create one, you take him through the journey of being a rookie to a Hall of Famer. And Spider-Man dropped. Both for PS4, so I'm really--I'm enjoying myself.Ade: 2K, huh? Okay. So what's your style? Are you a shot-creating slasher? A playmaker? What's up?Zach: I'm actually a slashing, shot-creating small forward. I'm 6'10" on there, and so if you want to catch a body, you want to be put on a poster, you find me at the park. My gamertag is RevNunn, R-E-V-N-U-N-N. I'll see you out there.Ade: RevNunn gonna put you on a poster. All right. This week my favorite thing is a book called Weapons of Math Destruction. Yes, I did say math. It's a book that came out in, I believe, 2016, and it just examines the societal impact of algorithms and big data. We tend to think of--kind of following in the conversation we were having about tech spaces, but we tend to think of data and tech and science, the STEM space, as a relatively bias-free zone because it's presented to us that way. However, this book just talks about those spaces can actually--and that work, the creation of algorithms, actually can be used to reinforce pre-existing inequality and systemic inequality. I love it. It's by a mathematician known as Cathy O'Neil, and she talks about, you know, the reinforcement of discrimination using systems that we would otherwise consider or would otherwise hope are unbiased. So it's been a fun read. Okay, maybe not fun. Fun is definitely not the term I'm looking for, but it's been a very illuminating, insightful read, and I encourage everyone to take a look at it. Oh, that reminds me. Before we go, we are actually going to be opening up our Favorite Things to you, our listeners. So if you have a favorite thing, please get at us. DM us through IG or hit us up at our email address, which we'll list later on at the end of this show. You can also contact us through the website or Twitter, and we'll make sure to shout you out.Zach: Dope. Well, that does it for us. Thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate podcast. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at LivingCorporate, Twitter at LivingCorp_Pod, and subscribe to our newsletter through living-corporate.com. You know what? Also, we actually bought a bunch of other domains. That's right. Sound Man, go ahead and drop some air horns right here.[Sound Man complies]Zach: That's right. We bought livingcorporate.co., livingcorporate.tv, livingcorporate.org. We are everywhere except livingcorporate.com. So if you type in Living Corporate you will find us, okay? If you have a question you'd like for us to answer on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. And that does it for us on the show. This has been Zach.Ade: And I'm Ade.Ade and Zach: Peace.Kiara: Living Corporate is a podcast by Living Corporate, LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Brown. Additional music production by Antoine Franklin from Musical Elevation. Post-production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion? Email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and living-corporate.com. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.

In this episode, Zach and Ade discuss the role of education and building wealth with Accenture senior strategy consultant, Richard Odior.Length: 00:33:33Hosts: Ade | ZachTRANSCRIPTAde: “Research and public policy have traditionally focused on education and income as drivers of upward mobility. There is compelling evidence, however, that education alone does little to explain the source of different levels of economic well-being, especially across race. Observing an association between higher levels of educational attainment and higher levels of net wealth and concluding that education produces wealth is tantamount to observing an association between the presence of umbrellas during rainfalls and concluding that umbrellas cause the rain. It's more likely that the relative wealth of different races explains the educational attainment differences across race groups.” This excerpt is from “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans” a joint report between The New School, Duke Center for Social Equality, and Insight, a non-profit research entity. What does this mean for people of color trying to secure the bag? What role, if any, does education play in affecting our income? And if education alone won’t secure the bag, what will? Hi, my name is Ade. And this is Living Corporate.Ade: So today, we’re talking about greenery. Cheese. To be more specific, we're talking about paper, stacks, racks, looseleaf, guap, benjamins, all that. Zach: So we're talking about money? Ade: Mhmm, getting to the bag. More specifically and more to the point of this show, what role, if any, does education plays a role in securing said bag. Zach: You know, this is a great topic, I'm really excited that we're talking about it. Because I know for me growing up, education was a big deal. It was a big deal for its own sake because my mom is a principal now and before that, she was an English teacher. Butt off top she told me, look, the expectation is for you to get a Masters. We didn’t even talk about me going to college because we knew that we were going to college, no joke. I didn’t even walk for my undergrad degree. Not because I don’t believe college matters, but because it was so much the expectation. Ade: Same here - it wasn’t even a spoken thing, my family just expected me to go to college. You need to go to college to get a job and you need a job to get money so it was an automatic thought process there. Zach: Right, and to be honest I just figured the more education you got, the more money you’d make. But as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that isn’t always the case. Ade: Well, to keep it real for a second, how many people do we know who, at the barest minimum, have a bachelor's degree, but have not secured the bag?And before we go any further, this is certainly not to disparage anybody with a bachelor's degree under their belt, or who have terminal degrees. This is just a process of trying to understand what the secret sauce is. Listen, if there's a formula, somebody needs to put me on. I was on Fishbowl, which is, for those who don't know, it's an anonymous posting app for consultants and there were just so many different stories and conversations going on around compensation that I've never been exposed to before. And it’s even more unbelievable because that study I referenced at the top of the show, again it's called “Umbrellas Don’t Make it Rain: Why Studying and Working Hard Isn’t Enough for Black Americans”, it calls out median wealth by education level, and it shows a disparity between black and white families- where Black families with a post baccalaureate have a combined wealth of 84k white families at the same level have a combined wealth of almost 300k. The numbers get even more bleak with fewer years of education. Zach: Right, and I appreciate you sharing this data. It's a great report "Umbrellas don't make it rain", we'll make sure to have it in the actual show description but I look at those numbers myself like “HOW SWAY? HOW!!” How is that possible?! The thing about it is, though, neither one of us has finished grad school, so most of our talking points are gonna be second hand, right? It would be great if we could talk to a 1st generation Corporate professional who, maybe they graduated from a top 3 grad school in the nation. You know, someone who could share their story about their experiences Ade: Right, right Zach: What the job hunting was like and maybe how they used their degree to get to the next level, perhaps? Ade: Like our guest, Richard Odior? Ade + Zach : whaaaaaaa? Zach: Sound man - I need you to go ahead and drop them thangs in here for me! [air horns] Ade: [Laughs] alright, so next, we’re going to get into our interview with our guest Richard Odior. I hope you guys enjoy-------Zach: Hey y’all, we’re back! Annnnd as Ade said, we have Richard Odior on the show! Richard, welcome to Living Corporate man!Richard: Thanks for having me, guys, I'm glad to come to the show, I guess. This is exciting, man.Zach: So, for those of us who don’t know you, would you mind sharing your story a bit? Specifically of how you (1) got into Corp America and (2) what led you to pursue an MBA?Richard: Yeah, so I went to the University of Houston and majored in Finance, and like anybody else in Houston, there's one option - oil and gas. So I quickly hopped into a career in finance in oil and gas for a couple of years, worked in commodity trading, then like financial performance analysis, pretty much all the board for a while. And then luckily I was able to gather with a group of friends who were trying to do some entrepreneurial things, and we opened up a chain of gourmet donut cafes in Houston. Shout out to Glazed. And so one of the things that the experience let me know is that I loved building things. I love growing things. But it also let me know I liked growing things fast. And what I learned about through that experience is that brick and mortar is a bit slower and so I went back to school in a sense to move back to a faster paced growth, and so for me that was tech, right? Tech enabled businesses. So, I went back to business school with two things in mind- either going to Venture Capital, or going to Consulting. Because I wanted to see a faster paced growth, that's kind of how my mission to go back to school started.Zach: So talk to me a bit more about growing things and growing things fast. When did you realize that the pace that you worked at was perhaps a little bit faster than that of your surroundings?Richard: Oh man, it was as soon as week three of work. I think at the time, oil and gas was moving slow, companies were paying people crazy amounts of dollars to do little work, and so I joined my new group, and I was probably the only other person under 30 in my group of like thirty five people. And primarily because companies were paying people to do work that could have been automated and people were not motivated to move up because they were getting annual promotions, annual raises, and it was outlandish. And I just realized this was very slow. In the first 6 month of being there, I had already surpassed a lot of people of the floor because everybody was coasting, and it wasn’t because I was doing anything amazing, I was just putting in more effort than the average individual, right?Zach: Right, right.Richard: And for me, that just kinda wasn't what I wanted to do. I figured 'while you're young, do as much as you can as fast as you can, and learn as much as you can.' So I just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing, and through the experiences I was able, and great mentors at the company, I was able to build really fast, get into new roles, get new opportunities that a lot of people probably wouldn't get into until several years into their career. And so that was pretty amazing, but then I realized I didn’t have ownership of anything. I didn't have anything that I could call my staple item. When you're working in oil and gas, you don't own an oil rig, you don't build an oil rig, you don't make any of that, so I was like 'what is my impact?' and I didn't feel it. And I felt like there was a way to feel it, that I wanted to tangibly know that I had changed something. So, I looked at somewhere else. And luckily I had some friends who were into the same thing, into building, into cultivating, into doing some really cool things. And we just started chatting and we said 'hey, what can we do?'Zach: Were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven right when you got there? And were there any preconceived notions about grad school that were proven wrong?Richard: One preconceived notion, at least for business school, and I'll speak to business school, the hardest part was getting in. Once you're in, it's busy, it's difficult, it's kind of like a ride. You're growing yourself and learning and meeting new people all the time, and sometimes a lot of the work gets masked, if that makes sense. You don't realize how much work you're doing because it's masked in so many other experiences. The opportunities really feel global. Like, I traveled almost thirty countries in two years, it was ridiculous.Zach: thirty countries in two years?Richard: Yeah I think the final number was like twenty-eight. And I can speak for myself, I don't want to speak for all minorities, but it's just one of the things that a friend of mine told me - speak up, raise your hand, and don't be afraid. Minorities tend to feel like our voice is not going to be on par with the rest of everybody. We think about what we're going to say so carefully because we want to seem a certain way, and what I realized, and what my buddy told me, he was like 'you're here because you earned it. Don't ever feel like you didn't earn it, and don't ever feel like you can't compete.' Those were really really big words for me because I think often times I went to a public school, I went to the University of Houston, right? And a lot of b school classes have students coming out of Columbia, Harvard, Yale, and so sometimes you get this mindset like 'yoo what am I going to do, I'm not on the same level.' And then you get in there and you pull something out of yourself that you don't understand that you have. And you understand that you're here because you're valuable, you're here because you bring something to the table, and I think that was one of the things that I had to shake off when I first got there.Zach: It's funny that you bring that up, talking about 'you look around the room and you see all these people that got really big collegiate names next to them' and how you question yourself like 'do you really belong there.' it's funny because a couple shows ago we had- we were talking about imposter syndrome and how you battle that. And it's funny that you kind of bring that up when you say 'not feeling like you should have to prove your seat at the table.' But that if you're here, you earned it, and you're here for a reason.I hope that people take that away and that they're encouraged by it. That's a really good message. And I think it's actually applicable in and outside of Academia, right?Richard: I always tell people like 'Let someone else turn you away,' right?Zach: Straight up, yeahRichard: The amount of times we (and I talk about we as the minority population), We self-doubt ourselves, right? We say oh-- I remember in undergrad, there was a career fair and there were several companies recruiting. And my buddies, we walked in and they veered off left and I veered off to the right and I was like 'yo guys, why don't you come in here?' and they were like 'well my GPA's not this and my grades aren't that' and I said 'let them tell you no'. I'm not going to tell myself no, you know? Someone needs to pat me on the back and say 'Hey Richard, what you're doing is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your product is not good enough', 'Hey Richard, your grades aren't good enough', because I'm not going to tell myself I'm not good enough.Zach: Man, amenRichard: I'm going to walk in there, I'm going to hand in my resume to whoever's there, and we're going to have this conversation, and then you're gonna tell me I'm not good enough.Zach: No, straight up, I'm cheering you on when you're talking because man, that's my philosophy. Like, look man, there's plenty of people out there who will tell me I'm not whatever. I'm either too academic or not academic enough, I'm either too strategic or too tactical, or I'm too this or not enough that. Listen, man. There's enough out there already of all of that. So I'm not gonna be an additional voice for that, I'm going to tell myself I am enoughRichard: You are enough, yeah!Zach: You know, like what's the point? So you gonna sit back and join every other voice that's out there? Not to be super pessimistic and say that the world's against you, that's not what I'm saying. But there's more than enough voices and perspectives and opinions, be that for whatever reason, that are gonna discount you, so don't discount yourself! Let them tell you, Let them push you out the room, let them tell you that you shouldn't sit at the table. Then you fight, but don't kick yourself before you even get started.Richard: 100% you gotta walk in like you already have a seat at the table every time you walk in the room.Zach: RightRichard: Every time. Every time you walk in the room. Now, I'm gonna let you pull my chair out, but I'm not pulling my own chair out of underneath myself.Zach: I'm saying! [Laughs]Richard: I have a seat!Zach: That's rightRichard: I don't care what room it is. I walk in, I have a seat. That's how you have to operate.Zach: No absolutely. Well look, man, today as you know, we're talking about getting to the bag, right? And so the context was all around, like, we looked at a study called Umbrellas Don't Make It Rain and it's essentially dispelling certain myths about wealth inequality and income inequality. And one of the things for me and Ade that we were talking about on the show, growing up, I just thought that if you got a grad degree, that they were just going to hand you money, right? That you're just gonna walk out of that thing with a thick six-figure salary, and so my question to you - what would you say to people who just make that assumption? Like look, I went to grad school, I got my MBA, and now it's time for me to get that 160,000, 180,000, 220,000 dollar bag. Like, what would you say to people who make that assumption?Richard: Whew, uh, I think a couple things to get the bag, you gotta be ready, first what are you bringing to the table? What industry are you looking to go into? What were you doing before? And how are you going to change the organization that you're going to now? So, for example, even me going to business school was interesting. I remember when I was making the decision, I was basically a finance guy, so I had to put it in a spreadsheet, right? And so, I had to say 'okay, if I go to business school and pay X and come out and get paid this, then it's valuable.' And I hate to sound like a snob, in a sense, but I think a lot of times people don't understand what they're investing in when they go to grad school. And I say this to say - not to knock any program - all programs are not created equal, all opportunities are not created equal, so going to any grad school is not the same as going to certain grad schools, if that makes senseZach: YeahRichard: And it all depends on where you are in life, right? At a certain point, I usually say it's a premium spot is maybe 4 to 6, anywhere from 4 to 6 years is a premium spot because you've probably made good enough money at the place you're in, but still have enough value from the MBA to get the post-MBA salary and still be worth it. Let me give an example - if you work 8 years and you've made your salary is now at X dollars, it's harder to leverage the MBA because the jump that you can make is smaller, right? But if you go at prime time, which is usually, for most people about 4-6 years, a jump is still very sizeable. So for example, I was blessed with a really good job before, like I said, it was great, I was making really good money. But post MBA, I was still able to increase my overall salary by more than 50%. At that point, the numbers still made sense. But if I had stayed in my current company for maybe another year or two, the jump would not have been as large.Zach: RightRichard: Also, I think some of the big things - it's not just about the bag now, it's about the bag later. And I say that in the sense that if you go to the right program with the right resources and the right network, the beauty of it is, it's not just about you getting the bag today, but your network will also be getting the bag. And so your network is your bag as well. Because whenever they're looking to hire a consultant down the line? It's you. Whenever they're looking to hire someone for an acquisition? It's you. They're gonna operate in the network of other people that they believe are competent. One of the things I noticed - I work in consulting- one of the things I noticed was some of the best managing directors, what they leverage is their MBA network. What they utilize is their other classmates working in industry, at whatever company it may be, and they reach out to them and they sell these huge million dollar projects back and forth. And because that bag is not just a today bag, it's a future bag, right? And so I won't say that knowledge isn't something that you can always google. There's a lot of aspects you can Google about the knowledge you can get, the documentation, but a large part of business school is the in-person interaction. I used to sit with my classmates from Colombia, India, Indonesia, all over the world, and we would talk about different concepts and I'd learn directly from them. And two things that I got - I got unique knowledge, but I also got to know them better. So, when I tell you I went to 28 countries, I was going with these people from those countries and I was learning business through them and with them and now in the future, they know that if an opportunity comes, I can knock on their door, they can knock on mine.Zach: When we talk about wealth or the bag, I know for me that my default is "how much money am I going to make off of this job?' Individually, me, right now. As opposed to, to your point, pulling from your network, right? And thinking about, you said, the bag in the future. I would say even if your bag is only, you know, in the context of a yearly salary, your bag isn't big enough, right? Like I would say you need to be thinking about really what encompasses the bag. And to your point, it's that network. When you think about MDs and Partners and Principals, especially cats who have been selling work for 5, 10, 15 years, they typically are selling work back and forth to like the same what like 7 or 8 people?Richard: 7 or 8 people!Zach: Like it's not like they're like 'oh I found this brand new guy that just popped out of nowhere' No, they have a network there.Richard: That's part of the bag. The relationships are part of the bag because ideally, one of the things I realized, and if you go to the right program, if you do it the right way, you don't have to get to the bag immediately. And I've seen it multiple times where someone went to grad school, they might have not gotten the exact job they wanted, but they take another job, they did well, they got promoted, then two jobs down the line, when a great opportunity comes with that company, well their friend works at that company and is high in that company, and they pull them over. You see a gravitation of 'oh that company's run by a bunch of X people that go to that school, that company is run by a lot of people that go to that program.' It's because there's a relationship that's being built, that's being carried over in so many ways. There's a reason why certain companies recruit at certain schools, because those relationships, someone high in that company is from that school and has that relationship, so there's definitely value. And if you're changing industries, there's definitely a value there. And that was one of the factors that if you're putting it into a spreadsheet, you won't be able to put that part in the spreadsheet. Your bag might not be actual cash, it might be your happiness and your enjoyment of getting into something you wanna do. I have a lot of friends from school who might have been doing things like banking, investment banking previously, making north of 200 [thousand] a year, and took jobs that make maybe half of that post because their ideal goal was to get to something that was different, and that was the bag for them. And so identifying what your bag is is a big thing. If you identify what your bag is, then you can identify how to get to the bagZach: That's a really good point, man. I like that a lot. So to your point, I think perspective matters. What you're thinking about what your goals are. Which actually is a good segue to my next question, so as a follow up to that, what was your strategy for you on leveraging an MBA for where you want to go? So when you think about - man did you even plug the school? Did you plug the school that you went to?Richard: Oh I gotta plug my school, I was waiting for the end, but I went to Kellogg, man. Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern, man. That's my home, man. They took care of me for a good two years, man.Zach: There we go. So my question is when you think about Kellogg and the degree that you earned, what was your strategy on leveraging your MBA for where you wanted to go? Like how did it fit into your master plan?Richard: I'm still leveraging it now. I mean, in multiple ways. I think for me, the school, ideally chose the school for one a few reasons, right? One was the programs that had the learning that I like to learn. It had a lot of hands-on learning, but mixed with class work. And they promised that you would work in over 400 groups before you left. And I was like wow, 400? I was like alright. And the importance of that was that I work best when I get to know people. Like I'm not the best, but I've always been good at managing relationships and I wanted to go to a school where I'd get to interact with people, manage and harvest relationships, and be able to develop with these people. So when I chose the school, that was definitely in mind, and then on top of that, since I've been in school, the network is amazing. I've been able to reach out to so many people and I've made mentors and connections through our network that have been beyond anything I could have dreamed about. And I'm still making networks and connections, I'm still making calls, and I'm still giving back in the same way. And so I'm always in this realm of gratefulness to the program, but it's leveraged me to be able to have conversations with individuals who probably would never, if I had just tried to make a certain transition, would answer my call. In my phone, to this day, I have the numbers saved of at least 5 millionaires. Easily. And that's a minimum. And those came through the experience of when I got to Kellogg, connecting with certain people, being continuously connected to my goals. For me, I had several short term and long term goals. I was able to utilize my network very early on. I remember the first week of school, we did an exercise, and it was in your sections, sections were usually around 60 people, and so our professor said I want you to tell me something that is one of your largest goals and I want you to put it on the board. And we're one by one putting it on the board. And anybody who could help you get to your goal would come write their name on your sheet.Zach: oh wow, that's powerful.Richard: and it was interesting because he said 'you don't realize what you have alone in this room. Not even the whole school, but what you have alone in this room.' And from that first week of school alone, from the people who wrote their name on my list, I've been able to go so far. It's been crazy, I've met some of the millionaires I was said I connected to was through one exercise. And they leveraged me to introduce me to other people and it's been amazing and so, because of that, I naturally have been given experiences where I don't even have to leverage the MBA, the MBA gave to me directly, if that makes sense.Zach: No it does, that makes a lot of sense, man. So look, I have a last question for you - do you have any other plugs, other shoutouts?Richard: Whew, um, I got a lot of shout outs, a lot og plugsZach: Do your thing man, do your thingRichard: I gotta do a Glazed Donut Café - if you’re in Houston, for sure, check this out. They're my family. Love you. Kellogg's School of Management, Bauer was my undergrad, go Coug's, I learned everything I know from them. I also wanna plug Impact America Fund. One of the firms I used to work at, and I got connected to them during business school. It's a double bottom line venture capital fund which focuses on investing in minority entrepreneurs and underrepresented minorities. I learned a lot from the people at that firm and I've grown a lot through them. I want to shout out to Living Corporate for doing what they're doing. You guys don't know how major this is right here. Honestly, as someone who has constantly worked in corporate america, this is something we used to talk about in business school is - we often have to cover and hover and hide who we are constantly, and what you guys are giving people is the opportunity to really be open, and also an opportunity to see that you're not alone in the workplace. Which is often times when you're the 'other,' you always feel alone. This podcast alone has excited me so much because it lets me know I'm not alone, and lets me hear the stories of people who are doing great things that are also considered an 'other' at work.Zach: Aw man, that's amazing, well first of all Richard, bro thank you for the kind words. The thing about it is, what excites me is your energy is - and spoiler alert for those who don't know, Richard and I are friendly, and we've known each other for about a decade now-Richard: yeah man, a decade!Zach: But what's crazy, and what excites me is the fact that when you say something, especially when you give praise, and also when you constructive criticism, but when you speak all that energy, it comes from a really authentic place. And so, we wanna thank you for joining us today, and definitely all the shout outs- I want to endorse. Eat Glazed. Glazed is a great donut spot, good donuts, great flavors, if you're in Houston, check it out. You'll probably see us shout them out on our IG stories, so stay tuned for that, but anyway, Richard man, thank you for joining us todayRichard: Yeah, and any minorities who are listening and you're thinking about grad school or business school, I can speak specifically to business school, if you're thinking about business school, feel free to hit me up. Honestly, I'm an open book, I like talking, I'll have a conversation with you, anyone who needs anything honestly. My goal is to see more of us in those spaces, because honestly something I will say is it's a leveling ground. It evens out the field and I've seen it multiple times, for people who were not given a silver spoon to start off with. So if you want to have a conversation, if you just have questions in general, these guys have my contact info, feel free to reach out and we can chop it upZach: We'll definitely put the contact info in the podcast description. Drop your stuff, man, what's your twitter, your IG-Richard: yeah so my email is richard.odior@gmail.com, my IG is r.odior. That's it, you can find me on facebook, find me on LinkedIn, feel free to touch base any time. Let me know that you came from Living Corporate first so I can show these guys some love.Zach: [laughs] yeah man, that's what's up. Richard, again brother, thank you. We look forward to talking to you again soon, brother. Alright, Peace.--Ade: And we’re back. Yo, that was a great interview and Richard was a fun guest. He had some great insights on how you can leverage a degree for your goals, but I think I’m more certain now than I was before that that degree isn’t a cheat code. Zach: Yeah, like I said from the beginning, I was raised to think that having a graduate degree would give me one two three four five six seven eight Ms in my bank account. Ade: Right, but at the same time I do believe the degrees have their time and place. They just need to be part of your plan. Which is it’s own thing. Zach: Real talk. I know for me I genuinely want to get a grad degree, right? First it was an MBA, but now I’m thinking an I/O Psych PHD but -- Ade: Oh, ok you fancy huh? Zach: I am very fancy, for sure. The point is, I’m trying to think it through, like the why of the degree, because school isn't free. Definitely not even cheap Ade: Sure isn't, sure is not. And, listen, we started off the show talking about wealth inequality and how it isn’t fixed purely by education. I don’t think this should discourage people from pursuing a degree. I do hope that this conversation helps us think critically and analyze fairly common assumptions many of us were raised to believe about how wealth is generated and distributed. Like Richard alluded to, we’re going to have to re-think what “the bag” is for us and what our strategy to secure it, it has to be more than an annual salary. Zach: Right! That’s a soundbite for sure. This is a huge, complex, and yes, frustrating topic, but I believe the starting point is awareness, then thoughtful dialogue, then planning and then action. Ade: Agreed! Anyway - let’s get into our next segment - my favorite things, where we talk about what our favorite things are these days. Zach : Yes! My favorite thing right now has to be this book I’m reading called Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race, by Reni Eddo-Lodge. It’s so frank and honest. I also have a bias towards aggressive book titles. Book titles that let you know exactly what it's about when you pick it up. I just, I really enjoy that. Also, shout out to Glazed Donuts. Glazed Donuts is a gourmet donut restaurant based in Houston TX. I can tell you they have a great product - donuts, sandwiches, kalaches, juice, allat. Shout out to Richard, Bobby, Edose, TJ and all the members of the Glazed Donut team. Ade: So currently, I have at the absolute top of my list of one true loves, I have this book called Children of Blood and Bone. It is by Tomi Adeyemi who wrote just an amazing, amazing work. And I'm looking forward to reading more from her. I'm Nigerian, I'm Yoruba, and it's really beautiful to see the Yoruba pantheon of gods incorporated into a literary work. So go check that out if you are interested at all in, well, reading. But also if you're interested at all in any fantasy novels, really really good book. My other favorite thing- I don't know if you've seen I just got a new dog. His name is Benji. Well, technically his name is Maximillian Benjamin Gold the third. There is no first or second, but yeah. We are extra over here around these parts. I call him Benji because I'm the more sane mama. I'm well grounded and down to earth and all of those things. So my beautiful beautiful baby husky is just my newest ray of sunlight and I just, I cannot get enough of him. I've taken 262 pictures and I've posted maybe 3 of them, so like I'm not being obsessive and I'm not being 'that guy' but. He's a gorgeous pup, and I do say so myself. Zach: Dope! Well, thank you for joining us on the Living Corporate Podcast. Make sure to follow us on instagram at @livingcorporate, twitter at @LivingCorp_Pod and subscribe to our newsletter through www.living-corporate.com. If you have a question you’d like us to answer and read on the show, make sure you email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. Aaaaaand that does it for us on this show. This is has been Zach. Ade: and I’m Ade Both : peace!9:19 -> 10:18

Introductions00:00 - 05:00 We introduce Jordan, Zach and Matthias and then Matthias and Zach talk a little about STEM education and the nature of the tech need for people with the "right" skills.  Terrible Opinions 05:00 - 31:00 Matthias - I approach stupid opinion on both the right and the left but I find myself more dismissive of people on the right (especially their intelligence) than of people of the left. I recognize this is unfair, but I'm not sure why I feel this way. Jordan - I really like Justin Beiber's new album. (Zach is ok with this. Matthias stays out of it.) Zach - I'm looking forward to doing taxes this year. It's like a puzzle and I enjoy doing it. Matthias joins in with some of the ways he enjoys playing the taxes game. This evolves into a conversation about auditing and simplified tax codes and, quite frankly, it goes off the rails a little bit.  10,000 Character Maniacs 31:00 - 41:00 Jordan talks about Twitter and the idea of a 10,000 character tweet and how terrible that idea is. Matthias talks about how he would change Twitter if he were in charge, we talk generally about the bad things Twitter. @Nero, Twitter Deverification, and Harassment  41:00 - 52:00 We talk about how Twitter de-verified pro-gamer gate anti-feminist user @Nero and how de-verifying people is bad news for Twitter… especially if they want Twitter to be a platform that is dedicated to free speech. We talk about the nature of Twitter harassment & doxing.   Predictions52:00 - 1:04:00 Zach - there will be some kind of big IRS data leak or security hole this year. Jordan - there will be a backlash against putting kids' pictures up on Facebook and new parents will eventually stop doing it. Matthias - in the State of the Union, President Obama will talk about gun control, which will launch another round of stupid back-and-forth about gun control.